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Some things stay the same

Posted on August 05, 2019 by

New polling today:

Scotland vs the Tories, with Scottish Labour on the wrong team. As it ever was.

In truth, it’s still closer than most sane people anywhere else in the world would believe. Labour’s tiny handful of remaining voters are split almost down the middle about whether being an isolated xenophobic country with a smashed economy is scarier than taking responsibility for our own affairs like normal people.

Make no mistake, those Labour voters know Brexit will be disastrous.

And they don’t like their options. Astonishingly, not much more than a third of them are willing to say they think their own leader would be a better UK Prime Minister than Boris Johnson. They have only very slightly more faith in him than SNP voters do.

Indeed, if forced to choose, a quarter of them would actively pick Boris Johnson over Jeremy Corbyn.

Tory voters, meanwhile, are delusional.

And nobody cares what the Lib Dems think, as usual.

That’s where we are now, folks.

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    1. 05 08 19 10:44

      Some things stay the same – politics-99.com

    492 to “Some things stay the same”

    1. Grouse Beater says:

      Good old reliable Labour in Scotland, always got the back of… erm …. Labour in England.

    2. John says:

      Still waiting (8.00am) to hear anything about this on Good Morning Scotland.

    3. blackhack says:

      Labour, the Scottish zombie party…..They don’t know (or care) that they’re dead, they just keep stumbling on

    4. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      The tide has finally changed.

      Not totally sure of the veracity of Lord Ashcroft polls, but this makes a fascinating read for Monday morning.

      Ruthie can no longer Moothie that there is NO DEMAND For IndyRef2, when one of her own Tory Toffs conducts polls reaching that very conclusion.

      In summary, the democratic wish is…

      – That IndtRef2 goes ahead and…

      – That the majority of Scots now want Independence.

      Thank you Boris. The git that keeps on gitting.

      Thanks for flagging it up Stu.

    5. Ruglonian says:

      What a mess – every bit of this picture is depressing to me.

      What will it change, with anyone who has the power to enact any change? Absolutely nothing, I fear 🙁

    6. gordoz says:

      Before the angels chorus and the dimming of the light they will pray & cry out to an SNP God !
      Aye …. Shouting
      NEVER, NEVER, NEVER !

    7. Bawjaws says:

      1 in 8 “Yes” voters in 2014 would now vote “No”? Seriously?

    8. John Walsh says:

      Still too many I’m alright Jocks . Only when the reality of Brexit hits will they shift.
      It’s all about their personal wealth. So when that’s affected , wether it’s pensioners or Labour “Socialists” they will move to the least risk option.

      For most Yes people money is not the main reason for independence . Independence is going to be the only way we can find to preserve our culture. It’s now a matter of identity survival!

      The Tories & Unionists will come at us hard now. We need something like the billboards
      “led by Donkey’s“ strategically placed.
      And we need the Yes movement to get a Troll Hunter Guide to counter the oncoming Yoon twitter storm.
      Blockers set to malky.

    9. James Kay says:

      The charts suggest equal weights for each subgroup. This is misleading.

      For example, in the IndyRef question, the bar for 91% No (Conservatives) is higher than :84% Yes (SNP). in fact, the Yes-bar represents more people than the No-bar. Going bt the 2917 electiin, I think that the correct proportions should be about 24:30.

    10. Alt Clut says:

      Our time is not far away now. Patience and active build up until Brexit is clear.
      Maybe the route just has to be unclear until then ? The actual shape of big struggles is often obscure until they happen.

    11. Edward Freeman says:

      The independence referendum should be held on 31 October, and the day should be made a holiday to increase turnout.The possibility that BoJo may choose the day for a general election should not put us off, and should be held regardless of whether the Westminster regime persists with a no-deal Brexit or rescinds article 50. We do not want to have to go through this all again at some future date.

      There is a tide in the affairs of men, &c., &c.

    12. Famous15 says:

      So! Even with all the vows, bribes and lies Independence is in front!

      Alister Jack with all the courtesy of an arrogant toff on the steps of Bute House pushing past Nicola to spoil the photo op and the right wing press blame Nicola. Small but significant point. It shows that Jack is out to destroy devolution so let us give him independence.

      Scotland is going places, it is rejoining the world.

    13. Ken500 says:

      Get rid of Labour. Take the fight to the Tories. The SNP will win.

      Independence support goes up 1% a year as the elderly keel over and the youngsters come on board.

      The best time to have an IndyRef is when it can be won. Not in the middle of turmoil. A GE election. Then an IndyRef, One campaign at a time. The Tories will not last until October, A majority of one. They will collapse soon especially if there is no Brexit. Hardly likely. It would crash the economy.

      In the US 16,000 a year die from shooting, 26,000 total murdered. More than any terrorist attack etc. Yet the US are paranoid about terrorists. The enemy is within. Some claim it is their own government, They arm themselves against their own government,

      Some claim the US does not need socialism because it is socialist. The first communist was a Catholic priest.

      The US spends far too much on weaponry. The highest pro rata in the world. $611Billion. A third of total world spend. More than enough to alleviate poverty. The multimillion companies should pay their taxes. $Billionaires give to charity but use illegal practices and evade taxes. Trump has not started WW111 yet.

    14. donald says:

      Strangely feeling glass half empty – firstly, how is support for Independence not much much higher? Boris, Brexit, ultra Right Wing cabinet, etc.

      Secondly – is this our ‘Johnson Bounce’ as it’s the first proper poll since he came into office and we’ll revert to previous normal of mid to high 40s?

      Hopefully not, but I was honestly expecting 60% plus.

      That said, I’d bite your hand off (and my own) for 52% yes in the real thing.

    15. Gizzit says:

      Batten down the hatches people.

      The Unionist smear machine will go into a frenzied overdrive. Expect all the hackneyed old disinformation alongside a lot of frantic new fabrications.

      There will be attempts to goad independence-minded people into making intemperate responses, there will be false-flag accounts to make outlandish and damaging comments.

      As difficult as they make it, it’s essential to rise above provocation, and stay classy.

    16. Robert Peffers says:

      I see the POTUS is saying the mass shootings in the USA are caused by mentally ill people and not by white supremacists. Perhaps the mass cliff divers in the United Kingdom follow the same trends.

      Oh! Wait up Prof whit’s his name has just come on Radio Jockland let’s see whit he says aboot it. Ah! He says we will get the occasional poll sayin yes an the occasional poll sayin naw!

      So there you go – just what Rev Stu said first, “Some things never change”. I wonder what Kaye wi wan e’e has to say aboot it?

    17. Muscleguy says:

      The most significant result is the one where they ask if people expect Scotland to be independent. The Yes expectant people constitute a significantly larger majority than the how would you vote in IndyRef2 result.

      These people are the Indy Curious, the ones whose doors are open to campaigners, who will hear us out and who want to discuss the issues. They are also the ones who will come to Yes when the polls continue to show a Yes majority.

      The snowballing won’t happen quickly, it will take more polls from more companies showing a Yes majority and it being discussed, in the media, on the streets, in the pubs and coffee shops.

      Wear your badges people and be prepared to talk to folk. I’ve been approached in the supermarket by people noting my badges. Before I had to take them off for professional reasons. I limit myself to a Scottish CND lapel pin, a coded Yes symbol.

      Remember it’s nearly Hiroshima day, check out banthebomb.org for a commemoration near you.

    18. Kevin Cargill says:

      Seems to me that if a dodgy Ashcroft poll suggests a win for yes next time of 52/48 then chances are the result would indeed be Yes but with a much higher percentage than his poll suggests. Bring it on Nicola. We need the lifeboat now!!

    19. Macart says:

      Not too bad at all. 🙂

      Given that there has been an unprecedented and unrelenting campaign continued by the meeja and their chaintuggers in Westminster for the past five years.

      Still. Take what you can get when it comes to getting your message out in today’s media. The myth of ‘no appetite’ spun by Conservative, Labour and Libdem parliamentarians alike, is busted.

    20. Abulhaq says:

      At this stage, given the events, we ought to have pro independence around 60%.
      Interesting support for Corbyn among SNPers. Must be the old Labour strand in the party feeling nostalgia for its sandals and beards leftist roots.
      Quite illogical as Corbyn is manifestly an English Unionist and Johnson’s politics would be more advantageous to the cause.
      I do hope this does not portend post General Election SNP-Labour alliances.
      It cannot be said too often, it is not the purpose of Scottish Nationalism to save the British state, and England, from folly.

    21. Footsoldier says:

      The crisis at the children’s hospital in Edinburgh has the potential to make a serious dent in the SNP’s standing.

      The BBC have already grabbed the opportunity and the Scottish press donkey pack have followed by promoting the comments of a Unison union official who says it may have to be “ripped” down and for good measure throws in personal comments about his own family. The source for these comments – gossip and hearsay, no professional opinion.

      The SNP need to say a lot more than they are doing as others will fill the silence and it is a gift to the opposition.

    22. admiral says:

      donald says:
      5 August, 2019 at 8:41 am
      Strangely feeling glass half empty – firstly, how is support for Independence not much much higher? Boris, Brexit, ultra Right Wing cabinet, etc.

      I think most people currently don’t see any Brexit impact in their lives. This will change rapidly if we crash out on 31 October – food shortages, medicine shortages, job losses, small farms going bankrupt.

      Then there is the impact of the right wing nut jobs, following orders from Trump and bannon, taking control of the government and readying to roll back the state. NHS sold off, tax cuts for the rich, fewer civil rights, employment rights, etc. Once the true fascist hue of the UK government becomes apparent, things will swing towards indy.

      I see Roger Bootle – Thatcherite economist – is in the Torygraph today saying the collapse of the pound sterling is worth it, because only a few British tourists going abroad will be adversely affected. Doesn’t seem to get it that we import most of our food and medicines and these are going to cost way more, and that’s without the impact of tariffs. To say nothing of other manufactured goods.

    23. Hamish100 says:

      Personally I think the polls are encouraging.

      After all I believe the Independence referendum will have the full weight of EU citizens behind us, we will have many pro EU behind us as well as being able to encourage people who don’t normally vote to come out.

      We have the Young Adults who in the main reject Unionist rhetoric.

      Labour voters will have to consider another decade or so of tory/DUP/ lib dem rule

      With tighter controls on postal votes and such like and I think we can win!

    24. Yerkitbreeks says:

      Numbers please – otherwise it’s like a cosmetic advert “ 77% of 58 people voted such and such “ !

    25. galamcennalath says:

      1) 12% of 2014 Yes and 10% of No have changed their minds. Diff 8%, thus the overall shift from 2014.

      2) 8% of SNP voters will vote No, and 13% don’t want IndyRef2.

      3) 15% of SNP voters would chose UK over EU.

      I think in these we are seeing Yes-Leave folks. I know two who have stopped being activists, one has dropped membership, although they say they are still SNP voters. They really are upset about the Indy in EU approach.

      Hopefully, as the UK option looks worse and worse than the EU one, they will rethink.

      This looks like a large group. Having voted Yes previously, and still voting SNP, they need more attention and focus than any other IMO.

    26. Hamish100 says:

      footsoldier,

      Re the Hospital in Edinburgh

      Crisis? – stop using unionist rhetoric. UNISON has close links with the labour party.

      I wonder if UNISON will call on their members who constructed the hospital to be sacked?. How about fellow UNITE members?

      What about the consultants and Building Control officers of the council who are members of the UNION. Shold they be sacked for not carrying out their job properly if they passed the work as ok?

      Still it is conjecture ably blown up by the bcc scotchland and their Labour contacts. The drain(s) will be sorted, the ventilation will be sorted and waterson will move on to blame global warming on the SNP.

      This is why I detest the LABOUR PARTY in Scotland . The promotion of non-entities of people like Leonard (UNISON) is just one reason. Remember Leornard’s partner part of a UNISON committee complaining over something in Lanarkshire (Question asked at Holyrood)

      UNISON is being used by the Labour party by a small clique of labourite unionists.

    27. Giving Goose says:

      galamcennalath

      I’ve known English pensioners, who moved to Scotland, voted SNP but voted No in IndyRef1.

      There will be people who agree with SNP social policies but can’t move to Indy.

    28. kapelmeister says:

      The Johnson government will further alienate Scotland. On brexit. On devo & democratic rights. With SE England the recipient of far more than its share of government spending.

      A 4% lead for Yes after just a few days of Johnson will do for starters.

    29. Ghillie says:

      And Scotland continues to move towards Independence 🙂

    30. mike cassidy says:

      So some are disappointed the yes/no gap isn’t bigger.

      I’m more disappointed in this.

      8% of SNP voters don’t want an independent Scotland.

    31. sassenach says:

      In the final chart, 67% of Tories say Scotland will remain in the UK.

      I suspect this is because they are allowing for vote rigging!!

    32. Bob Mack says:

      @Giving Goose,

      Correct. People enjoy the SNP mitigating for the worst excesses of Westminster and thus vote for them. Having your cake and eating it I suppose comes to mind.

      Perhaps if people had to endure full austerity it may concentrate their minds on a different solution.

      The SNP are caught in the middle.

    33. Who are these SNP members who don’t want independence? What are they doing in the SNP if they don’t want independence.

    34. HYUFD says:

      52% 48% for Yes is smaller than Remain led in many 2016 EUref polls so no guarantee Yes would win even with No Deal Brexit. More Leavers still back No than Remainers back Yes. Plus in the second Quebec independence referendum from Canada in 1995 Yes led most final polls but No won 51% to 49% as Don’t Knows went No, Yes is not over 50% including Don’t Knows in this poll

    35. Ken500 says:

      Attacking NHS and Education does not win votes. People support them.

      The Tories cut Education £6Billion a year and NHS £4Billion a year from 2015 to 2020. The Scottish Gov has to mitigate the cuts. Scottish budget cut 10% a year. Now £3Billion less.

      Scotland raises £60Billion in tax revenues. More pro rata than the rest of the UK. UK raises £661Billion. Scotland loses £20Billion to Westminster mismanagement. £4Billion Oil revenues. Too high taxes when price had fallen. Losing 120,000 jobs. £3Billion tax evasion. £1Billion Trident and redundant weaponry. £5Billion which could be borrowed to increase growth. £4Billion on loan repayments not borrowed or spent in Scotland. Fishing (discards), farming (£160million) and Oil sector mismanaged. UK H&S Laws not enforced. MUP introduced will save lives and monies.

      Illegal wars, tax evasion and financial fraud.

      Scotland would be far better off Independent.

      Iraq, Dunblane and Lockerbie kept secret for years under the Official Secrets Act.

    36. Ken500 says:

      There are SNP voters who do not support Independence. The SNP rules support Independence.

    37. Terry callachan says:

      I would never ignore a poll
      but I don’t treat them as representative either because they do not provide proof of how they went about deciding who to ask and when to ask the questions they ask

      Then there is the use of percentages when in fact it would be more honest to just tell us the actual numbers and allow us to work out the percentages ourselves

      Often the number of people asked a question is so small it makes the poll an irrelevance

      The way they publish these poll results so widely and so quickly should lead readers to conclude that it is all part of the propaganda piped from England to Scotland on a Daily basis

    38. Ken500 says:

      Never trust the Polls in tight margins.

    39. call me dave says:

      That hospital pass finally arrived for Jean Freeman this morning but I think she dealt with it as well as she could.

      I heard Prof Curtis expertplaining the poll doing his best not to frighten the horses but admitting that there has been a move to YES. “London must watch out” was as far as he would venture.

      Early morning but all the FTSE’s indicate another bad day for the stocks and shares….could I be paid in Europe?

    40. galamcennalath says:

      Shallows and summer and all that … but it explains why the BritNats have been increasingly hysterical recently!

      As The Rev says, this poll show core BritNat voters as delusional. The fear among BritNat leaders is their supporters begin to see reality.

    41. Clootie says:

      The remaining Labour voters in Scotland are the die hard follow the commands that the leadership issue. They are blind and deaf to the reality of what the branch office has become. They even voted Tory when Dugdale instructed them.

      What do we do? We keep talking, every one of us who supports Independence.It was true in 2014 and is true today. We only have to win over one person each.

    42. call me dave says:

      Euro’s (tablet called HAL) 🙁

    43. ahundredthidiot says:

      Two relatives on in-law/out-law side came over from Labour to SNP about ten years ago (maybe 2007 actually)…..anyway, both voted No in 2014. I love them, but these people are slow to the realisation, but they do get there. Both would now vote Yes.

      They’re fearties, labours full of fearties, the ones with any balls sold out their principles and sided with the Tories – what a price to pay just to hate on Scotland – and is why, by and by, they are so angry.

      Just keep chipping away at the fearties and we will romp home – forget the 25%……oh, aye, and bribe the elderly – all the vast majority of them care about is not being old and poor, which is fair enough.

    44. HandandShrimp says:

      I have no idea what Labour think so it is comforting to see that current Labour voters are in the same boat. I live in what used to be a rock solid Labour seat. Can’t recall the last time I saw them on the streets or involved in any sort of visible activity. They are a hollowed out ghost party that stands for nothing but bitter entitlement.

      Elsewhere I listened to radio shortbread news at 9 this morning, primarily to hear why the US gunmen were shooting. However, what I got was Freeman should resign and nuclear submarines will have to level the new sick kids hospital to fix a drain or something. It didn’t take very long for me to remember why it is months since I last listened to this tripe nor very long to flip back to Absolute Rock.

    45. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I think the mainstream media must have got an early sight of the Ashcroft poll, since there have been an absolute tsunami of SNP BAD stories this morning.

      They are shiting themselves now, and it will only get worse as they throw everything at us to deter a Yes vote in Indyref2.

      We have them on the run, but, their retreat will see a scorched earth policy towards Scotland.

    46. Lenny Hartley says:

      Kevin Cargill Al-Stuart, think this poll was conducted by Panelbase either that or Panelbase asked me the same questions late last week. One thing I would say about the Panel base poll was that there was a “glitch” on one of the questions where I had to select an option I disagreed with to progress to the next question !

    47. bookie from hell says:

      unionist journalists today

      ” of course we expected this “

    48. I’ve had a ‘discussions’ with Labour activists at Polling Places. When challenged on Labour’s voting record in Westminster they either slither out of the discussion(e.g. by spotting a ‘friend’ across the road) or switch to another topic. They don’t seem able to admit to themselves what Labour MPs did.
      When challenged as to why, after decades of Labour administrations, Scotland still has dreadful areas of deprivation. I have never had an answer on that one.
      When challenged on why Labour and the Unions conspired to pay women less than men in Glasgow for decades they have no answer.
      Their best response is shutting up and pretending you are not there whenever they are challenged on these and other points.
      They support Labour but cannot tell me why.
      And just in case you think I am being agressive towards them, believe me I am not. I am giving them a chance to respond to legitimate questions.

    49. Doug says:

      Slowly but surely the momentum is clearly moving in favour of independence. I believe it will continue to do so. Spring in the steps today.

    50. Lenny Hartley says:

      Ken500 you do not have to be a member of the SNP to vote for them you diddy, I know A couple of folk who vote SNP for good governence but are staunch Unionists

    51. John Walsh:

      Still too many I’m alright Jocks. Only when the reality of Brexit hits will they shift. It’s all about their personal wealth. So when that’s affected, weather it’s pensioners or Labour “Socialists” they will move to the least risk option.

      You are spot on John, I have said all along that we need a hard Brexit and folk need to start hurting before they will consider voting for Independence as they will be looking for an escape route to ease their pain.

    52. galamcennalath says:

      HandandShrimp says:

      Labour … Can’t recall the last time I saw them on the streets or involved in any sort of visible activity. They are a hollowed out ghost party

      They are certainly not the party which fronted BetterTogether in 2014. That entity got the stuffing knocked out of it.

      Importantly, they aren’t in any position to be the front ranks of BetterTogether2 in IndyRef2. As they stand even 40% of their residual voters are now Yes!

    53. kapelmeister says:

      Nothing about the Ashcroft poll on the BBC news pages. Not even on the Scotland Politics pages.

    54. laukat says:

      This is a landmark poll not for the fact that Yes is in the lead as we have seen these before but because of who produced it.

      Lord Aschcroft was the first to show the start of the SNP lanslide in 2015 and to my mind he is trying to position his polling company as the one that is first to detect turning points. Usually where he goes the other polling companies start to follow.

      Its also a gamechanger as he is a Tory producing polls that directly contradict the unionist line in Scotland. This poll can’t be dismissed as an Indepdence friendly pollster.

    55. Capella says:

      No there’s nothing about the Ashcroft poll on the BBC website news. Top item is, of course, the new hospital “farce” which MAY have to be ripped down, according to a trade union official.

      Sheer panic – demands that parliament be recalled and Jeanne Freeman sacked because this hospital should have opened in July and it’s now…let me see – oh – 4th August when they made these demands.

      This shift of the polls into positive territory is certainly causing the media horses to bolt.

    56. Doug Bryce says:

      huge poll result.
      independence is coming.
      timing will be however be key to ensure victory.

      By backing EU membership (with a defined and clear position) the SNP are on right side of the argument.

    57. Lenny Hartley says:

      laukat think this poll was conducted by Panelbase on behalf of Lord Ashcroft, either that or Panelbase asked the same questions late last week. I thought Ashcroft owned Yougov, wonder why he did not use them or maybe Panelbase did ask the same questions as a sort of attempt to establish a base line.

    58. jeff says:

      Oh no. HYFUD is back. And his arse is squeaking.

    59. shug says:

      Nice to see the polls moving.

      The longer Nicola waits the better. The farmers need to be slaughtering their sheep and jobs lost before the real swing will occur.

      As usual this morning the BBC was;

      ” There is a school of thought that they might have to rip it down.” A union rep (labour) (the same people that underpaid women for 20 years in Glasgow)

      Deaf children are being “left behind” in Scottish education

      Votes for prisoners – Annie Wells criticised the move for setting a “precedent”, saying that prisoners did not “deserve” to vote in future elections. She said: “The fact this is being done without any proper debate or consultation is particularly unacceptable. Its EU law accepted by the UK

      Hospitals in England set to receive £850m revealed

      The BBC is a complete joke

      Yep must be an election coming

    60. CmonIndy says:

      Remember that 3.6 million voted in 2014. Each % point gained is approx 3,600 individuals. So a 7% move from 45% to 52% is nearly a quarter of a million people.

    61. Graf Midgehunter says:

      One swallow does not a Summer make but the direction is slowly moving forward which is what counts.

      The question I keep asking myself is, “Could we be even further ahead?” Another 2-3 points?

      I can understand the SNP being reluctant to call the Indyref date while the Brexit chaos changes from day to day and nobody really has a clue whether the Johnson crew will actually do seppuku or not..!?

      The SNP/SG are doing a grand job of running the country with the meagre devolved powers and money that they’re allowed to have. That doesn’t or at least shouldn’t stop the SNP being a bit more assertive (not aggressive) when giving interviews, speeches, or on panels, hustings etc..

      Answering the questions but slipping in information about sovereignity, currency, independence of the SNHS. Not taking crap or lies, calling out rubbish face to face.
      Silence is NOT golden.

      AS was good at things like this, no nonsense or being talked over. Get the message out.

      The SNP is IMHO too often, too nice whilst the Brit Nats are a bunch of scheming, devious shameless ba****ds.

      Which is why they often win…!

    62. Sarah says:

      Were 16/17 year olds and EU nationals included in the Ashcroft poll?

    63. Clootie says:

      Cmonindy

      …36,000

    64. galamcennalath says:

      Twitter saying poll didn’t include 16/17 year olds nor EU citizens.

      If true, the real figure for Yes support could be much higher.

      Remember the ‘leaked’ alleged figure of 57% from the WM secret poll recently? That might be closer to the truth!

    65. galamcennalath says:

      Ashcroft … “A majority of voters up to the age of 49 said they would vote Yes, including 62% of those aged 18 to 24.”

      Which implies 16-17 were not polled.

    66. DerekM says:

      Well he could not exactly come out and say the union was still winning after 5 years of unionist chaos and lies.

      I am surprised they gave us a 2% lead instead of a 1% they must have thought that would be more believable.

      Polls are so when they rig an election the stupid public go ah it must have been the right result as the polls said that is what would roughly happen,nice way of covering electoral fraud.

      So we lose the next referendum 51% to 49% in a unionist come back.

      Am i the only person who is wondering why we take this piece of tory shit as the truth?
      Or has alarm bells ringing that they ARE going screw us over again.

    67. stonefree says:

      I’m looking at the first 3 tables and wondering on the accuracy..SNP 5,13 and 15- Don’t want to be independent, Don’t want a referendum, and remain part of the UK respectively.
      On the surface these don’t tie up,
      I’ve probably missed something

    68. Has he not included the Scottish Lib Dems and greens in this poll – if not, why not?

      I recall a Conversation I had about 10 months ago with my cousin a Lib Dem Councillor (in the N.East) – forget the subject now but it was a Scottish politics matter and she was genuinely concerned that the SNP would do a deal with the Tories.

      I was astonished that she could even contemplate that as a possibility and told her so, but being polite, did not finish my sentence that I thought …. her party was more likely to do a deal with the Tories than we ever would..

      Now I see Jo Swinson is on her soap box with her false sense of power and impending prime-minister-hood ruling out doing a deal with the SNP if it means getting the Damoclesian threat of Brexit lifted from our shoulders but could possibly make Indy ref 2 easier.

      Doh! No Brexit means technically no mandate for Indy Ref 2.

      Maybe she doesn’t really want no deal – she has sided with the Tories before – maybe she just wants Boris out of the way and then it will be her time and she can blame the SNP for a No deal Brexit because if they hadn’t been trying to get Independence, she could have done a deal with them and got rid of some marginal Tory MP’s …

    69. it’s the first fortnight in August, the English ‘Fair’.
      Tens of millions of John and Jane Bulls are off on their holidays, many millions experiencing first hand what ‘third country status’ means already, 3 months before the Great British Leap Off Beachy Head on 31st of October.

      One Brit pound won’t even buy one euro on holiday.
      Everything is up in price, and the Whingeing Pomms will stagger back from the Costas in mid August moaning about 7 euro pints of Watney’s and Boddingtons in Tenerife and Benedorm.
      In the normal course of events, you don’t need to get your skull crushed with a blow from a 16 pound sledge hammer (Imperial) to be aware that that’s got to hurt, but for some reason a helluva lot of Brit Nats are still unaware of what is about to happen in three short months; the total destruction of their precious Union.
      Perhaps some enterprising promoter will organise Underground Parties on the eve of Brexit, with plucky Londoners urged to invoke the wartime spirit by descending into the tunnels below London with their sleeping bags, thermos flasks of milky tea, and join in a Vera Lynn Singalong:
      ‘We’ll (Not) Meet Again’?
      There will be (True) Blue Birds Over The White Cliffs Of Dover’?

      In world history, has there ever been mass hysteria like England’s Brexit Suicide Pact?
      This poll was commissioned by a Tory lord.
      It must be really dire then.
      I look forward to Davidson and leotard responses.
      It’s comin’ yet for a’ that.

    70. ScottieDog says:

      Ironically a section 30 may be the best hope for bojo- where he calls the shots and excludes EU nationals and 16/17 year olds. Even then the union is finished.

    71. laukat says:

      @Lenny Hartley

      I’ve not seen anything to suggest who actually conducted the poll. From the little information on Ashcrofts site showing the tables it doesn’t look the standard format panelbase provide and there’s nothing there to suggest who he used. I don’t think Ashcroft owns yougov. He has made great play on his methods of analysing the data the polling company provide so in effect he is trying build a reputation that his method is better at detecting change.

      Also if its true 16/17 years old have not been polled it would suggest its not one of the regular polling companies although not impossible that Ashcrofts gave them particular instructions. Also suggests that with 16/17 included would be more like 53Y/47N

    72. Effijy says:

      This nonsense about new Scottish NHS hospitals is a boil that needs lanced.

      Does anyone actually think the First Minister or her Ministers
      Design and fit ventilation systems?

      Only professional companies with all the necessary experience and qualifications
      We’re allowed to tender for the work.

      If anything is wrong then it’s down to the experts who work on these
      Types of projects day in and day out.

      The Unions blindly accuse the SNP government of malpractice
      In hope of resuscitating the corpse that is the Labour Party.

      They need to look at the financial waste Labour has put Scotland through
      With the Edinburgh Trams fiasco, the construction of Holyrood, etc.

      Where was all this bad mouthing of a political party when Labour Councillors
      Spent fortunes over a 10 year period to prevent equal pay for women.

      Where are the Unions praises for SNP for running the best NHS in the UK,
      For paying our Nurses etc more than in Labour Wales or Tory England.

      The Unions are about to be buried along with Labour going by these actions.

    73. Robert Peffers says:

      @Kevin Cargill says: 5 August, 2019 at 8:49 am:

      ” … Seems to me that if a dodgy Ashcroft poll suggests a win for yes next time of 52/48 then chances are the result would indeed be Yes but with a much higher percentage than his poll suggests. Bring it on Nicola. We need the lifeboat now!!”

      Noo bide yer time, Kevin, wait to hear whit James Kelly has to say, (no – not that James Kelly, our James Kelly, at:-

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/

      One thing I’m sure of is that if a poll’s results can be skewed the MSM, and in particular the UK broadcasters, will twist it till it isn’t recognisable, but Scot goes pop will untangle it for us.

    74. Jack Murphy says:

      Al-Stuart said at 8:05 am:

      “…..Ruthie can no longer Moothie that there is NO DEMAND For IndyRef2, when one of her own Tory Toffs conducts polls reaching that very conclusion……”

      I’ll just add a little bit more info from Wikipedia for readers

      ” Political party:
      Conservative Party “.

    75. galamcennalath says:

      ScottieDog says:

      Ironically a section 30 may be the best hope for bojo- where he calls the shots and excludes EU nationals and 16/17 year olds.

      The Tories (especially post Brexit) would demand no EU nationals voting.

      To counter, I understand the SG want the franchise to be extended to anyone 16 and above resident in Scotland regardless of nationality.

      This could be the basis of the first legal battle, who gets to vote.

      The BritNats probably have only one thing left – delaying the inevitable.

    76. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Apparently the opll did not include 16 and 17 year olds or EU nationals so on that basis alone YES would actually be a lot nearer 60% at an election.

      The key of course is getting the support out and I suspect our support would be easier to activate than the other side’s at a referendum.

    77. jfngw says:

      @galamcennalath

      The unionist will go for the ‘blood and soil’ option if they think it gives them an advantage, at the same time condemn us as narrow minded nationalists. The franchise should be the same as last time, if they want to restrict the vote then it has to Scots born and living here who only get to vote. If they want the blood and soil option it has to be the full one, not some gerrymandering to produce a no vote.

      If it is true that under 18’s and EU’s were excluded then Yes must be at least 55%.

      BBC reticent to produce this poll, it would have been online immediately if it was a No majority. They are no doubt perusing the results at the editors meeting deciding how to present this as a setback for indyref.

    78. One_Scot says:

      Would genuinely appreciate a constructive answer from anyone who has a good knowledge and understanding of politics in Scotland, but even if these polls were showing support for a referendum on Scottish Independence sitting at 90%, how does that help us if Westminster just keeps saying, ‘Now is not the time’?

    79. starlaw says:

      Effigy says 11;40

      watched this fool of a Union rep on the news and formed the opinion that these people would have opened this Hospital in spite of the risk to patients and staff. Well done SNP for keeping it shut.

    80. Republicofscotland says:

      The question is just how many of those Labour voters, adamant they won’t vote for indy, will vote for indy when the time comes?

    81. msean says:

      Nearly 12.30pm.

      The Union favouring counter poll to muddy the waters must be about due to land,lol. It’ll be getting rushed through just now.You just know it is. 🙂

    82. grafter says:

      Sent this to my MP Kirsty Blackman….

      KIRSTY,

      On behalf of those people who support independence for Scotland I would like to invite you to take part in the March for Independence in Aberdeen on Saturday 17th August starting at Albyn Place 1.30pm. I do hope that a high profile SNP politician would be only too glad to take part in this event, There appears to be a feeling that the SNP have been too long sitting on the political fence and that their support for those who wish to raise the profile of Independence has been severely lacking. So I would urge you and your fellow SNP politicians to come out from behind your net curtains and join us in the March in a hopefully sunny Saturday in Aberdeen.

    83. Brian Lucey says:

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/times-change/#comment-2477711
      “Would genuinely appreciate a constructive answer from anyone who has a good knowledge and understanding of politics in Scotland, but even if these polls were showing support for a referendum on Scottish Independence sitting at 90%, how does that help us if Westminster just keeps saying, ‘Now is not the time’?”
      I have asked that repeatedly. Whats the plan if, say, a post Hard Brexit BoJo Government goes “No…” to demands for a referenum, even with polls suggesting say 55-60%?

    84. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I would never ignore a poll
      but I don’t treat them as representative either because they do not provide proof of how they went about deciding who to ask and when to ask the questions they ask

      Then there is the use of percentages when in fact it would be more honest to just tell us the actual numbers and allow us to work out the percentages ourselves”

      (1) They DO tell you the actual numbers.

      (2) Why doesn’t anyone understand how polls work? You ask a group of people and then you weight their responses. So if 60% of the people who actually respond say they voted Tory in the last election, when only (for example) 45% of people in that election actually DID vote Tory, then to get representative numbers you weight down your Tory respondents by a quarter.

      You do that across a range of characteristics, and you end up with results that while arrived at by essentially a process of estimation and adjustment, have an uncanny habit of coming out remarkably close to what happens in reality.

    85. Republicofscotland says:

      Would I be correct in saying that no EU nationals or 16-18 years were polled. If so wouldn’t it be likely that the overall total for independence would be higher?

    86. Robert Peffers says:

      @Abulhaq says:5 August, 2019 at 8:58 am:

      ” … It cannot be said too often, it is not the purpose of Scottish Nationalism to save the British state, and England, from folly.”

      That, of course, will be in your humble opinion, Abulhaq, and unfortunately it can be said too often for the more sensible among us realise that the last thing an independent Scotland needs is a hostile next door neighbour. It is the job of the First minister of Scotland to gather to Scotland as many good friends as it is possible to have. There can be no doubt that in future, and at present, Scotland needs as many good friends as it is possible to have.

      Think about it for a moment, Abulhaq, and you will realise Scotland has only one land border and, even if Wales and Northern Ireland were to also gain their independence, our nearest non-England neighbour is Northern Ireland and the North Antrim Coast, at its closest point, is 12 miles from Scotland.

      With a hostile England every item imported or exported would automatically carry an increased price tag of either sea or air transport both of which carry a bad weather surcharge. So even if Scots paid their whack to provide the Chunnel we are at the mercy of England for a land route to the rest of the World and to Europe in particular.

      England, Wales and Northern Ireland aren’t our enemy – it is Westminster that is.

    87. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “1 in 8 “Yes” voters in 2014 would now vote “No”? Seriously?”

      Yes. Not everyone is the same as you. People change their minds about all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. Most obviously, in our case, Yes Leavers.

    88. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Still waiting (8.00am) to hear anything about this on Good Morning Scotland.”

      It was on at about 8.35am.

    89. Jack Murphy says:

      ITV News on-line has a piece on the latest Ashcroft poll:

      https://tinyurl.com/y3kblq53

    90. Petra says:

      @ Giving Goose says at 9:28 am … ”I’ve known English pensioners, who moved to Scotland, voted SNP but voted No in IndyRef1. There will be people who agree with SNP social policies but can’t move to Indy.”

      That’s it in a nutshell Giving Goose. These, mostly Tory type, individuals want what Nicola Sturgeon, not Ruth Davidson, has to offer as part of the Union. Cake and eat it crew. Maybe when we get the WBB, the SNP leaflet and WGD’s book out there and they are hit with some facts such as that our NHS is at risk (hence the MSM targeting our NHS) they’ll change their minds? Then there’s the threat to our food standards ETC, ETC, ETC if we remain in the hellhole. Most of them aren’t interested in a promise of increased pensions, so what will it take to change their minds? If ever?

      Meanwhile we can see that the penny hasn’t quite dropped for many Labour supporters. They can’t see that their party is finished, between one thing and another, and that it is they who have most to gain now in an Independent Scotland where they would have an opportunity to return to their Keir Hardie roots. Resurrect their party. The Ruth Davidson party has made murmurs about breaking away from London. Time for the Labour party to do so too. In fact to announce their support for Independence north of the border. That is if they actually give jack sh*t for the future of the Scots / Scotland.

    91. starlaw says:

      Brian Lucey 12;21
      Don’t know if there is any plan to ask Bojo anything, somehow I doubt it. I do not lose any sleep over it.

    92. Petra says:

      So what’s up next? A General Election with ”who” exactly winning? The outcome of that will also influence support for Independence greatly, one way or another.

    93. Abulhaq says:

      @Robert Peffers 12:28
      What you describe parallels in its anglo-aggression the pre union relationship. Are you suggesting that Scots must go cautiously cap in hand when dealing with England for fear of upset?
      I do not get the position you take. Carried to the logical extreme we’d be better sticking with the current arrangement.
      It is not just a Westminster issue many people in England are very unsympathetic to Scottish independence. I’ve met them, argued with them and come away stunned by the sheer ethnic hubris and arrogance manifested.
      In a pink and fluffy world it would be so cool to be friends with the neighbours but we do not inhabit such a place.
      That old saw about heat and kitchens may apply here.

    94. Colin Alexander says:

      Facts: The SNP are campaigning to prevent the UK leaving the EU. The SNP are especially opposed to No Deal “Hard Brexit”.
      ———————————————————–
      The SCENARIOS:

      Scenario 1: NO Brexit at all: If the UK Remains in the EU, independence becomes less likely for the following reasons:

      1. 2016 SNP madate for Indyref gone. Even if indyref held: It would be a re-run of 2014: A vote for independence would be a vote for Scotland leaving the UK AND EU.

      2. UK Govt would again campaign on a hard border between Scotland and England if YES wins. UK Govt would threaten to veto indy-Scotland’s application to re-join the EU. For as long as Scotland out of the EU, she would face tariffs when trading with UK / EU.

      Result: Yes win would be less likely, so it becomes very unlikely the SNP would even call indyref2.
      ———————————
      Scenario 2: An EU deal is made “Soft Brexit” goes ahead on 31 October 2019 or later. eg. UK remains aligned with EU Law:

      1. SNP have the clear mandate: Scotland dragged out the EU.

      2. UK is out of the EU. So Scotland is out of the EU. So a YES vote would not lose us EU membership.

      3. Independent UK cannot threaten a veto on independent Scotland applying to re-join the EU, as UK is not EU member.

      4. UK, so Scotland too, would be closely aligned with EU law, so EU membership would be more straightforward from regulatory aspect.

      5. No need, ( unlawful??) for a border between Scotland and England if EU deal includes freedom of movement.

      ———————————————————

      Scenario 3:

      NO DEAL BREXIT:

      1. UK has already blocked Continuity Bill and reserved laws to Westminster to enable Westminster to change Scotland’s laws away from EU law alignment.

      2. UK can then change Scots Law to make Scotland incompatible with EU law. This would force a period of EU re-alignment even if Scotland wanted to join the EU ASAP.

      3. BJ UK Govt oppose Soft Brexit, because if the UK remained compliant with EU law: this would make Scotland’s EU re-entry much easier (as Scotland would be EU law aligned) and England / Scotland trade etc would be regulated by the EU Brexit deal.

      4. This is one of the reasons why the SNP so vehemently oppose No Deal Brexit, the other reason being economic damage.

      ———————————————————–

      So, UK Govt would rather have No Deal Brexit than an EU-deal Brexit that includes freedom of movement.

      Scotland would have to move fast to declare sovereignty to prevent UK making Scotland’s law incompatible with EU. If Scotland declares Holyrood sovereign over our laws ASAP, UK Parliament cannot change Scotland’s laws. This would take boldness and bravery following a YES win. The SNP under Nicola have never done bold, Nicola being ultra cautious.
      ———————————————————————

      So, The SNP are right to oppose Hard Brexit: due to UK economic damage, due to absolute WM power over Scotland to make Scotland incompatible with the EU.

      If UK stays in the EU, indyref won’t be held. It will be business as usual and Scotland remains UK colony.

      Soft Brexit is probably the best option for indy supporters, so is most opposed by the BritNats.

    95. Brian Lucey says:

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/times-change/comment-page-1/#comment-2477726
      “Don’t know if there is any plan to ask Bojo anything, somehow I doubt it. I do not lose any sleep over it”
      Except, the dilemma is that if you want to be in the EU, or indeed even recognized by any main player, you need to gain independence in a constitutional manner. That means, the existing polity of which you are a member needs to agree to have the relationship altered. So, like or no, the ball rests with the UK government.
      What if they say no? Petulance, head in the sand-ism, unicorn sorry UDI fantasies, all fine but none will deliver what you want.

    96. HYUFD says:

      Including Don’t Knows Ashcroft poll has Yes only on 46%, the borders and rural Scotland still heavily No.

      https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1158319227092254720?s=20
      In Quebec in 1995 Yes to independence from Canada led most polls in the 2nd referendum there but No won 51% to 49% as Don’t Knows went No

    97. DerekM says:

      It is called conditioning something that human beings are susceptible to and intelligence agencies use to manipulate.

      Do not fall for it or forever be in the UK cage.

    98. Confused says:

      From what I remember Ashcroft made a lot of money in Central America, then, after doing a lot of money-stuff for the Tories, thinking he had “paid his dues” and going places, found himself chucked out on his arse; the Tory party is weasels fighting in a sack, armed with knives, as we have seen.

      – I think Ashcroft has an axe to grind, which makes him, for us, an honest broker.

      52 YES is OK, esp. if it does not include 16/17yr olds and europeans

      – the real number is when hard brexit hits. Got to be worth +5.

      The natural support level for independence over union is about 70-30 – the 30 is the anglo-financier who did very well out of union/empire, plus the kind of people with tattoos on their knuckles (done DIY, with a needle and indian ink after a heavy “sesh”)

      – the actual 2014 result was confounded by

      the tricked
      the fearties
      the better the devil you know brigade
      the square the circle / have your cake and eat it
      the complacent

      – all the blocks are being removed by events. All the unionists arguments turned against them – Project Fear belongs to us, but it’s not a creative work, merely description and linear extrapolation.

      What can the unionists campaign on – maybe a massive bribe of some kind … oh wait – we already got that, “delivered”.

    99. Sinky says:

      What are the odds of this significant poll being mentioned on BBB TV news bulletins

    100. Petra says:

      ‘Map reveals which council areas likely now back Scottish independence.’

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/17816349.map-reveals-council-areas-likely-now-back-scottish-independence/

      ……………………..

      O/T

      Professor John Robertson:- ‘The Tory/Unison Axis of Evil against the ‘SNP Government’ brings you ‘Things are bad so don’t think about changing anything’ every 30 minutes on BBC ‘Scotland’.’

      ”New £150m hospital may have to be ”ripped down.”…

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2019/08/05/the-tory-unison-axis-of-evil-against-the-snp-government-brings-you-things-are-bad-so-dont-think-about-changing-anything-every-30-minutes-on-bbc-sc/

      ………………………….

      Another brilliant Scot who never seems to get a mention. John Lamont born at Corriemulzie on the Linn of Dee road just west of Braemar on December 13, 1805.

      ‘The story of the forgotten Scottish space man.’

      ..”The main reason why Lamont is remembered is because he discovered a huge fact about our planet – the earth has a 10-year period of variations in the strength of the planet’s magnetic field, though nowadays it is more commonly quoted as an 11-year period and is associated with sunspot activity. He also proved the presence of telluric or Earth electric currents in the surface layers of our planet – tracking such currents is a technique still used for mineral and other explorations….

      Among other achievements he calculated the mass of Uranus, worked out the orbits of the moons of Saturn and Uranus, and proved conclusively that our own Moon had no atmosphere…..

      During his career he devised accurate stellar catalogues, noting 80,000 stars in all. His discoveries about the earth’s magnetic field and telluric currents made him famous and his many achievements included authoring more than 100 academic papers. He also made his own scientific instruments and sold many to other academic institutions……

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/17814561.forgotten-scottish-space-man/

    101. Golfnut says:

      @ Brian Lucey.

      Rob Peffers gave you a pretty concise answer the last time you asked this and I seem to remember I directed you back to it when you asked the same question on WGD.
      I have little doubt that Westminster will use court action to try and undermine the referendum, either to delay or seek a judicial review on the result. However there are two constitutional authorities at play here, Scots and English law. Both recognised internationally with their respective legal jurisdiction already defined. See Lockerbie.

    102. Petra says:

      In moderation, so breaking my post down.

      ‘Map reveals which council areas likely now back Scottish independence.’

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/17816349.map-reveals-council-areas-likely-now-back-scottish-independence/

    103. Petra says:

      O/T

      Professor John Robertson:- ‘The Tory/Unison Axis of Evil against the ‘SNP Government’ brings you ‘Things are bad so don’t think about changing anything’ every 30 minutes on BBC ‘Scotland’.’

      ”New £150m hospital may have to be ”ripped down.”…

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2019/08/05/the-tory-unison-axis-of-evil-against-the-snp-government-brings-you-things-are-bad-so-dont-think-about-changing-anything-every-30-minutes-on-bbc-sc/

    104. Petra says:

      O/T

      Another brilliant Scot who never seems to get a mention. John Lamont born at Corriemulzie on the Linn of Dee road just west of Braemar on December 13, 1805.

      ‘The story of the forgotten Scottish space man.’

      ..”The main reason why Lamont is remembered is because he discovered a huge fact about our planet – the earth has a 10-year period of variations in the strength of the planet’s magnetic field, though nowadays it is more commonly quoted as an 11-year period and is associated with sunspot activity. He also proved the presence of telluric or Earth electric currents in the surface layers of our planet – tracking such currents is a technique still used for mineral and other explorations….

      Among other achievements he calculated the mass of Uranus, worked out the orbits of the moons of Saturn and Uranus, and proved conclusively that our own Moon had no atmosphere…..

      During his career he devised accurate stellar catalogues, noting 80,000 stars in all. His discoveries about the earth’s magnetic field and telluric currents made him famous and his many achievements included authoring more than 100 academic papers. He also made his own scientific instruments and sold many to other academic institutions……

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/17814561.forgotten-scottish-space-man/

    105. Petra says:

      O/T

      Another brilliant Scot who never seems to get a mention. John Lamont born at Corriemulzie on the Linn of Dee road just west of Braemar on December 13, 1805.

      ‘The story of the forgotten Scottish space man.’

      ..”The main reason why Lamont is remembered is because he discovered a huge fact about our planet – the earth has a 10-year period of variations in the strength of the planet’s magnetic field, though nowadays it is more commonly quoted as an 11-year period and is associated with sunspot activity. He also proved the presence of telluric or Earth electric currents in the surface layers of our planet – tracking such currents is a technique still used for mineral and other explorations….

      Among other achievements he calculated the mass of Ur*nus, worked out the orbits of the moons of Saturn and Ur*nus, and proved conclusively that our own Moon had no atmosphere…..

      During his career he devised accurate stellar catalogues, noting 80,000 stars in all. His discoveries about the earth’s magnetic field and telluric currents made him famous and his many achievements included authoring more than 100 academic papers. He also made his own scientific instruments and sold many to other academic institutions……

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/17814561.forgotten-scottish-space-man/

    106. Petra says:

      Oh Dearie me! The ”impartial” BBC at it again?

      ‘Scottish independence: SNP MSP slams BBC coverage of key poll.’

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/17816452.scottish-independence-snp-msp-slams-bbc-coverage-key-poll/

    107. sassenach says:

      With Coco’s return to lengthy posts (that I scroll-on-by) and FUD completing the double act – it is so obvious that the unionists are suffering faecal impaction.

      Happy days!

    108. jfngw says:

      People always asking what the positive case for the union is, you are going to have union flags coming out your ears, what else could you want. Possibly Jacob Rees-Mogg deeming that Ruth Davidson must refer to the Scottish Secretary as Father Jack Esq in all communication.

    109. Robert Peffers says:

      @Footsoldier says: 5 August, 2019 at 9:04 am.

      ” … The SNP need to say a lot more than they are doing as others will fill the silence and it is a gift to the opposition.”

      Oh! Stop talking rubbish, footsoldier. I have been a political animal since I was a boy and SNP supporters were very thin on the ground and the Labour Party didn’t count votes at elections – they weighed them.

      Thus I do now know many current middle or elderly YES supporters who have come over to YES from being former Labour supporters. Now just why have all those people moved from other parties to vote SNP? In the vast majority of cases it is because they became disillusioned by the things Labour has said and done that subsequently they found to be either lies or just wrong policies. What’s more after finding out how Labour lies and cheats they never go back to voting Labour.

      They will know just as I do that all this anti-SNP stuff propagated by the unionists and their tame propagandists is made up lies and propaganda.

      So what about this current scam about hospital patients who the media claim to have died from such things as pigeon droppings or infections from poor drains?

      I read what Professor John Robertson said about the original story and it showed the coroner’s report did not claim what the MSM claimed it had and Professor John quoted the actual reports.

      What the reports said was that both children were already very ill babies and would have struggled to survive anyway. The reports did state, among other things, that the children had contracted a disease often carried by Pidgeon poo but it did not say there was any evidence, in these cases, that the disease was contracted by pigeon poo. There was no evidence pigeons were the actual source. The truth being both children were most likely far too weak and premature to survive in any case. The MSM had thus concocted a story that would not have stood up in court if the parents had attempted to sue.

      Which brings us to this current concocted tissue of lies. Go read what Professor John Robertson has to say on that particular story here:-

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/

      Now think on this – anyone now finding out the truth as Prof John has exposed it will be well on the way of joining the many thousands who have found out the BBC, STV and the dead tree press have been lying to them all their lives and another YES voter joins the majority who clamour and march for independence.

      Slowly but surely the Westminster propaganda is actually cnverting voters in Scotland to vote for independence because once they have been found out by a voter to be liars that person is lost to the union forever.

      So Footsoldier, of you go and read the current pages of, “Thought Control Scotland”:-
      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/

      Professor John dissects that very story about the tearing down of the new hospital. Copy it, print it out and go show it to a No voter. Leave them the copy and see it you have won another vote for independence.

    110. Dr Jim says:

      No matter how accurate this poll might be, and Lord Ashcroft’s polls are generally pretty much on the money, this poll doesn’t appear to include a part of the demographic that will be allowed to vote

      Unless a slice of every demographic is represented within a poll it’s about as much use as standing outside the post office and asking passers by, and guess what, I’ve done that and most of them wanted the SNP to be put in a field and stoned to death, because the respondents were almost all folk my age…..old

      Pensioners are such arseholes about stuff, they hear four words and make up the rest, and the older they get the arseholes get bigger in proportion to their faces getting more miserable, well that’s what they tell their free personal carers and free hospital bus drivers as they forget that 10 years ago they’d all be dead by now if it wasn’t for the SNP that they want stoned to death who provide all this free stuff that everybody else pays for them to have but that the Tories would reverse in an instant

      The Tories could threaten to bomb Scotland and they’d still vote NO as long as they’ve got somebody local (SNP) to blame for it

      Cause they said so on the Telly, well that’s what I heard

      The longer pain goes on the more people get used to it they just limp and accept it and forget what it was like not to limp, time is a thing that’s on Unionist’s side as well

      At the pace this is all moving Wales will be more likely to be Independent before Scotland and there’s a good reason for that….no sectarianism, and it’s not just a central Scotland problem, you don’t have to wear a Rangers shirt and shave your head to be one of them you can be a lovely twin set and pearls lady from Perth or the nicely dressed golfer from Dumfries or the fisherman from Peterhead who all pretend not to know much about politics and prefer not to discuss it in case it causes offence, but what they mean is something entirely different

      I’ve worked in every Orange club in Scotland in my life as a musician, I know who and where they are, and they will *no surrender* …. but they’ll do it quietly and they won’t tell you….. Sshh

    111. Breeks says:

      I have never understood why the question about a second IndyRef at some point in the next two years is relevant.

      Surely a less arbitrary, and more informative threshold for the question would be a second IndyRef before or after Brexit, or alternatively, a second IndyRef in the lifetime of this parliament, or beyond. (Or not at all).

      To ask about an IndyRef at “some point” in the next two years seems bland and imprecise, and surely flatters the “Don’t Know” option.

      Am I missing something about this curious “two years”?

    112. Cubby says:

      You can always rely on HYFUD the Tory party member from southern England to pop up an churn out his lies and anti independence propaganda. Butt out you colonial mindset diddy – none of your business. England does not own Scotland so just pissoff.

    113. galamcennalath says:

      16-17 year olds are ~3.5% of the electorate and strongly YES. Add 2-2.5% to Yes.

      EU nationals account for another ~3.5% of the electorate. They would be foolish not to vote, and to vote Yes. Add another 2.5% to Yes.

      That’s around 5% Yes the poll is missing.

      Funnily, that takes us up to the rumoured 57% of the WM secret poll. Just saying, like.

    114. galamcennalath says:

      We need a poll or three with EU citizens and 16-17 included!

    115. Dr Jim says:

      You can teach children to count, it’s easy and they accept 2+2=4 until they become Unionist adults then they refuse to accept your dodgy figures that you just made up and prefer to rely on the absolute undeniable reason of big Tam doon the pub heard it at the Lodge meeeting…..Fact!

      Love it when they put *fact* at the end of stuff they scribble

    116. Dr Jim says:

      Unionist Trolls in panic mode now demanding that the FM only have a referendum when the polls are at 60% for YES like she *promised* *generation* *lifetime* *ever* *for all time*
      and they still say they’d vote NO

      The difference with Unionists is they would deny democracy to everyone including themselves rather than have the opportunity to prove their point of view

    117. jfngw says:

      This poll didn’t seem to be important enough to mention on lunchtime Rep Scot. Spent lots of time on the Children’s Hospital and that some union rep had herd some gossip. Tories want an enquiry and the coup de grâce of the entire piece having Jeanne Freeman defending her decisions. This was always the end game to tie the health secretary in and go for the resignation, they have previous on this approach.

    118. call me dave says:

      The PM’s £1.8bn for 20 hospitals in ‘England’ will allow £108m to be allocated to the SNHS as per the ‘usual method’ says shortbread

      ‘usual method’ = Barnett formula 🙂

      This morning “the new hospital might have to be ripped down” but this afternoon best “wait until the revue reports on the matter”.
      No Monica Lennon, no Tory and no union official comment. 🙂

      PS:
      Your a busy man Mr Peffers, in spite of your sore eyes, you can still spot a duff unionist agenda. 🙂

    119. SilverDarling says:

      I think in Scotland we have learned a lot from Quebec 1 and 2 and the methods used in both their votes and our Indyref 1.

      Crucially, they had no Brexit to contend with. In 1995 they were voting on the perceived failure of the 2 Accord agreements. Their referendums were 15 years apart. The memory of what was promised and what was delivered was not as fresh as it is for us. That is why the Unionists want a generation between votes – to muddy the memories. Despite all that in Quebec 2 it was close.

      Our constitutional status will change no matter what happens.There is no status quo anymore and nothing on offer except Boris Bluster. The rhetoric from Downing St. is less not more devolution.

      The core support for Indy is stable and gradual movement seems to being going, albeit slowly, towards Indy. With an actual campaign and based on the revelations from Downing St. of what lies ahead we will get a better idea of how the land lies.

      I would not base Scotland’s future vote on what the opinion of the Borders is just now. As a barometer of Scotland they are a bit out of sync.

      As to Lord Ashcroft’s credentials , I have no qualms. Remember though every time Indy moves forward there is a counter move. Lord Ashcroft knows that and timing is all. If his Tory masters wanted information they have it.

      O/T

      Got Electoral registration forms again, there is definitely an election in the offing.

    120. Robert Peffers says:

      @One_Scot says: 5 August, 2019 at 12:07 pm:

      ” … how does that help us if Westminster just keeps saying, ‘Now is not the time’?”

      Oh! For goodness sake! How many times must it be said that no one needs a Section 30 Order to hold a referendum?

      Ashcroft has just held a referendum – (he referred questions to a section of the public), I took part in a referendum on YouTube yesterday, (They referred a question on certain common goods to users of YouTube). Referendums are not against any law.

    121. Dr Jim says:

      Tom Waterson is Chairperson for Health in the Union Unison

      There appears to be no information on Mr Waterson’s qualifications as an engineer or buildings construction specialist of any kind, indeed there seems to be no information whatsoever on Mr Waterson, so for all anybody knows and especially the BBC who are repeating his words endlessly Mr Waterson could be unqualified in every and all aspects of building work, in which case Mr Waterson and the BBC should make clear where this information they are reporting is coming from and from whom

    122. Artyhetty says:

      Re:Effigy @ 11.40

      O/T

      Not to mention Labour’s legacy to Scotland. BILLIONS in debt to private companies for the next 25 years, due to Labours’ PFI vanity projects, many of the buildings were not fit for purpose, some were dangerous. Heating systems were terrible, hospitals not fit for purpose and massive car parking charges for staff, to this day.

      All due to UK Labour branch in Scotland, and their policy of private finance for public buildings, much to the massive detriment of Scotland’s councils, people and economic health!

      How dare their BBC and UK state run media run with SNP bad 24/7 when their disgusting British Nationalists parties are about to screw over Scotland far far worse in a couple of months time! Distracting from the devastation (when Brexit hits soon) of Scotland’s economy, jobs, environment, services, is what the Britnats do and it’s all they have. Pandering to the proud Scot butts. GTF.

    123. Effijy says:

      Local Labour waste of space MP now writing to my constituency
      In House of Commons paper to ask if he can help with anything?

      First time I’ve seen or heard anything from him since he became an MP.

      Must mean Labour expect an Election soon.

      He must get put out this time

    124. Artyhetty says:

      Re: Petra@1.26
      O/T

      There are many many Scots who were innovators and inventers who are completely ignored to this day. Thanks for the info, will look up online, The National has a paywall now, though I buy the paper most days.

    125. Dr Jim says:

      Nicola Sturgeon, Shona Robison, Jeanne Freeman

      It comes with the job that every SNP health Minister is attacked by all opposition parties simultaneously over anything they can think of

      It’s just Jeanne’s turn for the monstering

      She’ll be fine, made of strong stuff and a smart woman

    126. Cubby says:

      BBC Reporting Britnat Propaganda today.

      Not a word on the Ashcroft poll.

      Plenty of big licks on the dreadful new children’s hospital in Edinburgh. What is the source of this story – a Britnat union official pictured reading about himself in the Britnat Herald. Only idiots would believe this crap.

      What’s wrong are there no deadly Scottish pigeons in Edinburgh.

      Do the presenters of these programmes realise they are spouting propaganda or are they just thick?

      Britnat propaganda on the BBC all the time.

    127. Sean McNulty says:

      The subdued response to this poll is a bit strange. This is most momentous indy poll since those that gave us a brief lead just before iref1.

      We know for certain that 16 and 17 year-olds were excluded, and I *think* non-UK EU nationals were too. So as people have pointed out, that could mean the actual poll is something like 54-46 for Yes. For comparison, just over nine months ago we were behind 45-55 in a Survation poll that included 16-17s. In other words, we’ve come up roughly nine percent in just over nine months.

      That’s an amazing achievement, especially in the insanely biased media environment in Scotland. That kind of sustained improvement matters far more than the dramatic but brief jump immediately after the Brexit referendum. And Brexit hasn’t even happened yet.

      Pat yourselves on the back and enjoy this news. We’re well on our way now.

    128. SilverDarling says:

      @SeanMcNulty

      That’s the problem though.

      We cannot compare polls because of those omissions but I agree it is positive. Not momentous…yet! There is still lot of figuring out for Soft Noes and Don’t Knows.

      I suspect we’ll see a flurry of polling in the next while.

    129. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Muscleguy @ 08:48,

      You make an important point there. It’s been a longstanding expectation of a majority that Scotland will one day be independent, so the job at hand is to convince everyone who believes it that the time is NOW. They provide the latent support to win it. I believe we are already there – all it needs is a full-on indy campaign to unleash it.

      55:45 the other way round would do me nicely. That was “decisive”, after all. =grin=

    130. Robert Peffers says:

      @starlaw says: 5 August, 2019 at 12:10 pm:

      ” … watched this fool of a Union rep on the news and formed the opinion that these people would have opened this Hospital in spite of the risk to patients and staff. Well done SNP for keeping it shut.”

      If you want the real truth, starlaw, you should read Professor John Robertson on his blog:-

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/

      He tore apart the first load of lies about the two premature babies that the SMSM claimed had died from infections caught from pigeon droppings. Prof John first of all went through the coroner’s reports and proved there was no actual claims by the coroner that the infections were caught from pigeon droppings.

      All that the coroner claimed was that a disease often carried by pigeon droppings was, “a contributory factor”, in the deaths of the babies. What’s more the coroner’s reports said the babies were very premature are very unlikely to have survived even without infections.

      Normally these infections don’t cause problems in health babies if they are infected. Now ask yourself the question, “if Hospitals are full of people with all kinds of diseases is it a surprise that people get infected”?

      So the truth was that two premature babies who were unlikely to have survived anyway died and a contributory infection often found in pigeon droppings was a contributory factor, (among others), but there was no evidence that the infection was picked up from pigeon droppings.

      Now I’m no doctor but how would a premature baby, (normally such babies are kept in enclosed and controlled machines), and anyway how would they come in contact with pigeon droppings in an intensive care unit?

      So the first batch of such media claims were decidedly iffy. So what about the second load of tripe? There had been no patients in the hospital so just what kicked off the claims of dangerous drains and a dander of i8nfections from pigeon droppings?

      Who was it that began such stories for no one caught anything from either murderous drains or dangerous cushie doos sneaking into intensive care units and leaving droppings on premature babes. Whatever else the statistics for any hospital in the United Kingdom are bound to show that there will be a high percentage of people dying in that hospital for hospitals are full of sick, injured and just old and already dying people whose time has come to die.

      Most likely the stories stemmed from something else or just from the ventilation systems and drainage systems being similar to those in the Glasgow hospital and noted as such by the Clerk of Works person signing off the work as satisfactory – or not.

      Anyway read what Professor John Robertson has written on that subject today on his blog:-

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/

    131. Clootie says:

      BBC journalism is now reduced to the level that top cover is given to a union rep who heard a story from people he did not identify that a new hospital MAY have a drains problem and MAY need to be pulled down.

      The BBC tee it up and Labour and Tory parties jump on for a SNPbad fest.

      What happened to fact checking, verification etc It appears now that the BBC will accept pub gossip if it delivers a SNPbad headline for their Unionist buddies.

      Then we have a story based on facts ( Polling data in support of Independence). That story is to be buried.

    132. hackalumpoff says:

      INDY REF PHONE-IN ON LBC NOW! YOONS BE RAGING

      https://www.globalplayer.com/live/lbc/uk

    133. Sean McNulty says:

      galamcennalath says:
      5 August, 2019 at 1:43 pm
      16-17 year olds are ~3.5% of the electorate and strongly YES. Add 2-2.5% to Yes.

      EU nationals account for another ~3.5% of the electorate. They would be foolish not to vote, and to vote Yes. Add another 2.5% to Yes.

      That’s around 5% Yes the poll is missing.

      This doesn’t quite work out, galamcennalath. We can’t add 2-2.5% to the Yes total for both these groups. We can only add about 1-1.5% for 16-17s and 1-1.5% for EU nationals, i.e. 2-3% for a total Yes vote of 54-55%.

      As you correctly identify, the indy vote among 16-17s goes over 70% to Yes, so of the 3.5% the split would be roughly 2.5% Yes and 1% No. But we can only add the *difference* between these to the Yes vote (1.5%), not the full 2.5%.

      If the gap was as large among EU nationals then we could add another 1.5% to Yes.

      But to get even more complicated, we’ve now added 7% in total to the electorate analysed by Ashcroft, so we can’t confidently add more than 2-2.5% for Yes.

      But what we can say for sure if that based on this poll the support for Yes is *at least* 54%. And as mentioned above, it’s strange that more people aren’t celebrating this.

    134. Robert Peffers says:

      @:Brian Lucey says:5 August, 2019 at 12:21 pm:

      ” … I have asked that repeatedly. Whats the plan if, say, a post Hard Brexit BoJo Government goes “No…” to demands for a referenum, even with polls suggesting say 55-60%?”

      Perhaps you should pay more attention to what is said by people like the First Minister and a lot less to what passes as either Unionist Politicians or pretendy journalists.

      Nicola Sturgeon, Scotland’s First Minister, is on record as saying publicly that there will be another independence referendum, with or without, a section 30 Order.

      Furthermore, there is a bill going through the Holyrood Parliament, to that effect. Just in case you do not believe me here is a report to that effect from perhaps the most anti-independence publication in Scotland:-

      https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/indyref2-nicola-sturgeon-publishes-referendum-bill-at-holyrood-1-4936810

    135. ahundredthidiot says:

      BritNat HQ will this moment be planning their counter poll……just need to iron out the payments and then it’ll be all over the news

    136. galamcennalath says:

      Very soon, not quite yet, we enter the territoriy where wanting independence and a referendum is the default, norm, majority position. The BritNats’ arguments revolve around declaring they speak for the majority.

      Take this quote from the SiU site … “We stand for the majority of people in Scotland who know that we are stronger together, with a shared culture and history we can build our future on.” … What happens when this is no longer true? Then they become no more than a special interest group standing up for non Scots who have landed interests here!

      When BritNats and their loyal media chums cease in any way to represent the will of the majority their arguments are very weak indeed.

    137. Sean McNulty says:

      “SilverDarling says:
      5 August, 2019 at 2:47 pm
      @SeanMcNulty

      That’s the problem though.

      We cannot compare polls because of those omissions but I agree it is positive. Not momentous…yet! There is still lot of figuring out for Soft Noes and Don’t Knows.

      I suspect we’ll see a flurry of polling in the next while.”

      Hi SilverDarling.

      We’ll need to disagree on whether it’s momentous or not. You’ll see above that I don’t think that if we include the missing subgroups we can add the 5% galamcennalath mentions. But I do think we can add 2 to 3%, taking us to 54 or 55% with all relevant groups included.

      For comparison the Panelbase poll six weeks ago, which did include all relevant groups, had Yes at 49%. Something like a 5 or 6% jump in six weeks is momentous IMO. And again: Brexit hasn’t even happened yet.

    138. donald says:

      BBC are basically trolling us, right?
      ‘Could Music Festivals Be Good For Your Health’ – Front Page
      Scotland Now in Favour of Independence – Apparently not worth covering. At all. Anywhere.

    139. Breeks says:


      Robert Peffers says:
      5 August, 2019 at 2:12 pm
      @One_Scot says: 5 August, 2019 at 12:07 pm:

      ” … how does that help us if Westminster just keeps saying, ‘Now is not the time’?”

      Oh! For goodness sake! How many times must it be said that no one needs a Section 30 Order to hold a referendum?

      Well until “somebody” formally disputes the narrative, it’s the shite we’ll keep hearing over and over again from the BritNat media.

      Propaganda being indoctrination, it’s inevitable there are some who will be left indoctrinated.

      Refusing a Section 30 with her iconic “now is not the time” dismissal, and putting a bump in the road for the SNP in the 2017 GE were Theresa May’s high points in a thoroughly dismal and colourless premiership. Somehow being a Section 30 we don’t even need just makes it worse. Scotland put back in it’s box by “any old shite that’s not even true”, once again.

      Scotland’s Government is on a short list of people who have had their plans parried, and effortlessly outmanoeuvred by the inglorious Theresa May.

      I presume they give us “any old shite” because they’ve done it for 300 years and know we’ll fall for it. Wha’s like us? Damn few, and they’re awe Independent Nations.

      But keep the faith. 86 days left of our European Citizenship. Anything can happen, but probably not for the next 5 weeks while everybody’s off on holiday and doing important stuff.

    140. Lenny Hartley says:

      Re Ashcroft and yougov, it was one of his business partners who co founded you gov, sorry for the confusion
      In 2011, he became the main backer, along with Stephan Shakespeare (CEO and co-Founder of YouGov) of Flooved, an online education startup.

    141. Robert Peffers says:

      @Abulhaq says: 5 August, 2019 at 12:49 pm:

      ” … What you describe parallels in its anglo-aggression the pre union relationship. Are you suggesting that Scots must go cautiously cap in hand when dealing with England for fear of upset?

      NO.

    142. katherine hamilton says:

      Och awe you folk arguing about momentous or not. We’re now winning and it will grow. I’m sure we all feel it in our bones. Rejoice! Rejoice! Rejoice!
      No time for arguing or self congratulation. As yer man said-
      “It is not the end, nor the beginning of the end, but it is perhaps the end of the beginning”

      We’re on our way. We have the Zeitgeist. 300 years later. The kids will win it for us.

    143. galamcennalath says:

      @Sean McNulty

      Yes, I accept you’re right because adding the missing demographics raises Yes by the amounts I suggested, but also raises No by the remained. It’s the difference between Y and N which impacts on the totals.

      I got carried away with my enthusiasm.

      I just hope it’s not misplaced and other polls follow soon showing the same level of support!

      Anything over 50% is good, when everything is consistently over 50% it will be superb.

    144. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 14:56,

      Of course, the longer this indy phoney war goes on, the more these vile calumnies accumulate. It’s all the BritNats have left, mud-slinging in the hope that some of it sticks in the minds of the (deliberately) mis/un-informed. Even better for them if someone eventually makes a big enough mistake on which they can finally luck out.

      All of which just illustrates, in the words of the song, “Time is everything”.

    145. Footsoldier says:

      Peffers 1.31pm – What a pompous man. A real Pooh Bah.

    146. Fireproofjim says:

      I think this is very important, but seldom see it mentioned.
      The Unionists go on at great length about the amount of trade Scotland does with England, and it is certainly a considerable amount.
      The Unionists also say that this trade would be in jeopardy if Scotland was in the EU and England was out.
      But even the most fervent Brexiteers say that there will be a post-Brexit deal with the EU.
      Now the EU protect their members one hundred percent and so any deal that England agreed with the EU would also HAVE to be offered to independent, European Scotland or the EU would not agree to any trade deal with England.
      Scotland will get the best of all trading worlds. – In the EU with access to all their existing trade deals. (Recently Japan, Canada, Norway and South America). Plus a continuing trade relationship with England on the best terms the EU can give them.
      Independence in the EU is a win – win situation.

    147. katherine hamilton says:

      Any phoney war is not of our making, but we need to negotiate through it and survive it. And we will. Let’s hold the collective nerve.
      It’s coming.

    148. Maria F says:

      Why didn’t Lord Ashcroft include the LibDems in that poll?

      What are they trying to hide?

    149. jfngw says:

      BBC Scotland is in BBC parlance (part of Nations and Regions, just as Oxfordshire) is just a region and the constitution is not for a region to report on. They are probably waiting on their Broadcasting House handlers telling them how this is to be reported to a regional audience.

    150. CameronB Brodie says:

      Times and political paradigms do change. At a time when global problems require international cooperation to tackle existential concerns, the New Right are determined to turn the clock back on social evolution and ecological responsibility, largely in the name of God and a support of white supremacy.

      Paradigms of public law: transnational constitutional values and democratic challenges
      https://academic.oup.com/icon/article/8/3/517/623509

    151. Hamish100 says:

      Still BBC Scotland ignore the polls on their web page both on the general news page and political page

      The so called journalists at Pacific Quay hold your heads in shame.

      toooodilooo the noo

      We have WoS, other blogs, email, facebook, etcetera you know!!

    152. Clapper57 says:

      BBC offering a bonus to any political editor who can come up with a Unionist spin on the new Lord Ashcroft Scottish Indy poll.

      Hospital story now on a loop..rinse..spin..repeat.

      They are going mental mental chicken oriental looking for an angle …Sarah Smith has offered to give a piece on camera…a ham piece…as per….she is frantically typing up something that can include the words ” Conveniently for the SNP ” ….sh*t goin down at Pacific Quay….heads will roll…as will shoulders , Knees and Toes.

      Come oan it’s a story ya bams….report it…how long can they hold out…Da Da Dum Dum DAAAAAA…the suspenders are killing me…..surely a story on Conservative Home deserves a mention guys…..you’ve had Ruth on speed dial for long enough giving you a multitude of ” opposition parties say ” and ” some critics say” smear stories….have you no mercy for a poll in Conservative Home….Hello ….Hello….Hello…Is there anybody there ?

    153. Sean McNulty says:

      @galamcennalath

      At least you realised what good news this poll is. It was strange to come here this morning and see the disappointment.

      Anyway, as you suggest, consistently getting over 50% is going to be huge psychologically. The momentum is all one-way now.

    154. Petra says:

      What’s coming up next that could impact on the Independence stats?

      Will Parliament manage to block a No deal Brexit? If so, where will that leave the Tories with Farage hounding them? Meanwhile Hancock and Cummings say that they can’t. They’ve left it too late.

      ‘Parliament can no longer block no-deal Brexit, senior Tory insists.’

      ..”Health secretary Matt Hancock is the first minister in Boris Johnson’s administration to echo the reported claims of senior adviser Dominic Cummings that MPs have left it too late to stop no-deal going ahead on 31 October.”..

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-parliament-boris-johnson-matt-hancock-latest-block-a9039471.html

      ………………

      Will they hold a General Election before the 31st October (tight?), following Brexit or not until May 2022? All opinions (predictions) welcome, lol.

      ‘Will there be a snap general election in 2019 and who would win?’

      ..”The Sun reported that Johnson’s team were keen to get an election in soon amid “fears Mr Corbyn could step down and be replaced by a new leader who is more popular with the public”.”..

      ”Jeremy Hunt put it bluntly: “If we attempt a general election before we have delivered Brexit we will be annihilated. Attacked by the Brexit Party on the Right and the Liberal Democrats on the Left, we will face extinction,” Hunt warned, adding that any candidate running on the promise of an imminent general election is “offering a prospectus for disaster”. Many commentators believe senior Tories would rather put up with a restless electorate than face the very real possibility of wipeout at the polls if an election is called before Britain’s departure from the EU.”…

      http://www.theweek.co.uk/93763/will-there-be-a-general-election-in-2019

      ………………….

      ‘Could there be an early general election?’

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49004486

    155. Petra says:

      General Election Prediction:-

      Prediction based on opinion polls from 24 Jul 2019 to 27 Jul 2019, sampling 7,733 people.

      hwww.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html

      …………………………..

      @ Artyhetty says at 2:20 pm – Petra (1.26pm) … ”There are many many Scots who were innovators and inventers who are completely ignored to this day. Thanks for the info, will look up online, The National has a paywall now, though I buy the paper most days.”

      Artyhetty the article that I posted doesn’t seem to be behind a paywall. If interested check it out again. The article by the way (along with other great articles) was in the Sunday National yesterday.

    156. CameronB Brodie says:

      Time for some constitutional legal theory?

      The Paradigm-Case Method

      There are three fundamental topics in constitutional law: doctrine, interpretation, and legitimacy. Doctrine concerns the law as it is or should be in any particular constitutional field. Interpretation concerns the methods judges do or should deploy in deciding what the Constitution means. Legitimacy concerns the claims of authority that constitutional law – a body of law rendered by unelected judges supposedly on the basis of a two-hundred-yearold
      text – can make to justify its legal supremacy in a society that calls itself self-governing.

      Most constitutional scholars devote their careers to one of these topics. Some make contributions to two of them. Remarkably, Akhil Amar has changed the way we think about all three – and he has done so again in America’s Constitution: A Biography.1 Popular sovereignty is Amar’s paradigm of political legitimacy; a mixture of intratextualism and originalism are his interpretive lodestars. The intriguing insights he delivers for constitutional doctrine can be found on page after page of his book.

      https://www.yalelawjournal.org/pdf/170_kyhj6k8t.pdf

    157. jfngw says:

      I think I’ve got the BBC their headline, you just need to be selective and reflect Tory voters. A few vox-pops in selected areas (Ibrox, Moray) to enforce this opinion.

      ‘Although this is a single poll and the result is inconclusive, some voters have hardened their stance against independence and a referendum’.

      If you shut your eyes you can already hear the dulcet BBC reporter reading this out.

    158. Clapper57 says:

      This Union guy who is playing Chinese whispers on Hospital CRISIS…CRISIS…CRISIS…RUN FOR YOUR LIVES….has it been established where his source of information came from ?

      Second hand knowledge – not directly known or experienced

      Rumour – a currently circulating story or report of uncertain or doubtful truth.

      Gossip – casual or unconstrained conversation or reports about other people, typically involving details which are not confirmed as true.

      Little birdie source – used for saying that you are not going to say who told you something

      Labour source – malicious rumour generated to smear SNP

      I mean how many sources can one use before the actual piggen person who stated this and is suitably qualified to give out this opinion comes forward on camera…or rather a professional engineer making a more qualified and restrained statement based on actual factual assessment…someone not linked to Unite Union and Labour party….Jeezo

    159. Shug says:

      Anyone for phoning into call Kaye tomorrow to ask why they are not reporting it

    160. Shug says:

      Anyone for calling into call Kay in the morning to ask why they are not reporting it

    161. Abulhaq says:

      Pertinent excerpts from Craig Murray’s blog.
      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk

      [The SNP seems to have its heart set on being heroes on the UK stage and beloved of the Guardian and Alastair Campbell by thwarting Brexit for the UK. Well, bugger that. I want to destroy the UK and I want Scottish Independence. The rest is detail.

      Whether England remains or leaves the EU is a decision for the residents of England, not for me.

      …..if you can’t achieve Independence while Boris Johnson and his bunch of ghouls are lurking around No. 10, when can you? Forget waiting for a better time.

      If the SNP fails to strike all out for Independence now, and gets further distracted by the effort to stop Brexit for the whole UK, I shall not be alone in wondering how many of the 8% of SNP voters in the Ashcroft poll who do not support Independence, are at or near the top of the party.]

    162. CameronB Brodie says:

      The full-English Brexit was intended to resolve an internal dispute withing the Tory party. It has nothing to do with Britain’s economic competitiveness or protecting Parliamentary sovereignty. It got out of hand, let the gene of English racism out of its bottle, but at least it has shown the British constitution up for what it is, i.e. a charter for expansionist English nationalism.

      Henry the VIII powers have no legitimate place in British constitutional legal practice.

      Brexit: The Immediate Legal Consequences

      Executive Summary

      6. The end of the time period in Article 50 brings the EU Treaties to an end. However, the process of unravelling EU law from domestic law following Brexit would be a complicated process. Repeal of the European Communities Act 1972 in itself would be insufficient to surmount the legal difficulties. An earlier attempt at repeal in the form of a Private Member’s Bill failed to grapple with the complexity of the different bases on which EU law is incorporated into domestic law.

      7. In particular, it seems unlikely that all EU law would be sought to be repealed. Much of it would be retained. In that event constitutional difficulties might arise. It would be questionable whether a single Henry VIII clause allowing primary and secondary legislation to be amended or repealed by statutory instrument would be constitutionally acceptable given the wide areas that EU law cuts across and the limited Parliamentary scrutiny that subordinate legislation allows.

      8. There would also, following Brexit, be some difficulty in
      identifying the continuing status of EU law. Questions
      would be likely to arise and have to be legislated for or else decided by the courts as to the precedent value of European court case law and its status in areas where a particular area of EU law was sought to be preserved in a domestic context.

      9. Linked issues of law arise in respect of the devolved
      governments and legislatures. The devolution Acts are
      phrased differently but each of them appear to contain
      EU law that has been devolved. That being so, the Sewel
      Convention (depending on the scope of its application) may
      be engaged. That Convention has been included in clause 2
      of the Scotland Bill which amends s. 28 of the Scotland Act.
      The Sewel Convention requires the consent of the devolved
      legislature as a pre-condition of Westminster legislating on
      devolved matters.

      10. Moreover, inclusion of the Sewel Convention in a statute
      raises, at least in theory, questions of justiciability of that Convention in the courts.

      https://consoc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Brexit-PDF.pdf

    163. Clapper57 says:

      @ Shug @ 4.04pm

      Hi shug, if you call Kaye you’ll have to say you’re Karen from Glasgow…and have a NO SURRENDER tone in your voice ..Lol

    164. ahundredthidiot says:

      CBB@3:46pm – New Right? – surely you mean the Far Right? – many of us now find ourselves right of centre due to the nutjob left dragging everything so far off-centre….and I am sure that you will acknowledge that the Far Left have done much more damage to humanity than the Far Right? – not that it’s a competition mind, just a reminder to put things in perspective.

      I am also not so sure that linking a belief in God to white supremacy is a very clever thing to do.

    165. Robert Peffers says:

      @Brian Lucey says:5 August, 2019 at 12:55 pm:

      ” … you need to gain independence in a constitutional manner. That means, the existing polity of which you are a member needs to agree to have the relationship altered. So, like or no, the ball rests with the UK government.”

      That’s hilarious, Brian. You simply have no idea of what the legal relationship of, “The United Kingdom”, actually is and I’m fed up posting it – but here we go again. What do they teach you guys as history? Here is a very brief and incomplete history lesson.

      The Kingdom of England defeated the last native Prince of Wales in war and, in 1284, the King of England forced English law upon Wales by the Statute of Rhuddlan”. Thus annexing most of Wales as part of the Kingdom of England.

      Then the Holy Roman See, (the then international authority), appointed the King of the Kingdom of England as Lord of Ireland and, (in 1542), The English King forced the Parliament of Ireland to pass the Crown of Ireland act and this act placed the crown of Ireland upon the king of England’s head and thus England annexed Ireland as part of the Kingdom of England.

      In spite of long years of war The Kingdom of England failed to annex the Kingdom of Scotland and Scotland, in 1320, (after defeating England in the Wars of Scottish Independence), sent the Declaration of Arbroath, to the Holy Roman See and it was accepted by the Pope.

      The Declaration of Arbroath also did some things quite extraordinary and centuries before its time. First was to forever change the laws of Scotland by making the people and not either the crown or the parliament legally sovereign.

      Thus, by 1706/7 Britain consisted of only two monarchies – Scotland and England but Jersey, Guernsey and Man were, and still are not under Westminster rule but are part of her Majesty’s personal kingdom of Britain.

      Anyhow, and not mentioning that the Treaty of Union of 1706/7 was actually illegally forced upon Scotland, the two kingdoms signed, “The Treaty of Union”.

      Now legally, in order to legally sign such an international treaty, both signatory kingdoms had to be legally equally sovereign. Thus the United Kingdom is neither a unified country nor is it a union of countries. It is exactly what its title say it is – A two partner united kingdom with two equally sovereign kingdoms as its signatories. It is not a country nor is it a union of four countries with England as the master race.

      It is, as it began, an international kingdom of two equally sovereign signatory kingdoms called The United Kingdom. Neither Wales or Ireland are signatories of the Treaty of Union.

      Now to trash your claims – The former Prime Minister are several cabinet ministers have within the past year made this statement in the House of Commons and it is thus recorded in Hansard, “In an international treaty any party to the treaty has legal right to leave the treaty and need not give a reason for doing so”.

      Now I know they spoke about the UK leaving the EU but they are correct under international law and the Treaty of Union is an international treaty. What is more Westminster did not defend the Treaty from Scottish claims of, “The Scottish Claim of Right”, and by not objecting to that clain they legally accepted it.

      The Scottish Claim of Right is the Scottish right to Scottish sovereignty. Which means that as the people of Scotland are legally sovereign then a majority of the people of Scotland have legal right to end the United Kingdom and the Status Quo Ante of that is a return to the same two kingdoms as signed the treaty of union.

      There is absolutely no legal basis for Scotland to ask either the Westminster Parliament, (the UK Parliament not the Kingdom of England parliament for no such parliament legally exists.

      Got it now, Brian?

    166. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 09:20,

      Hopefully, as the UK option looks worse and worse than the EU one, they will rethink.

      This looks like a large group. Having voted Yes previously, and still voting SNP, they need more attention and focus than any other IMO.

      Actuallly I disagree, on both counts.

      The Leaver delusion is a powerful one, and has been carefully fed & watered by decades of poisonous right-wing anti-EU paranoia. Its grip on the faithful isn’t likely to be dented immediately on exit, especially if the bad effects aren’t immediately tangible, and may only slowly accumulate over time. If there isn’t something on the scale of total paralysis at the ports, expect an initial chorus from them of “told you so!”.

      As to your second point, I believe there are two mindsets within the former Yes-Leave camp. Those who prefer Leave for whatever reason but understand they will inevitably be in a minority on that issue in an independent Scotland yet recognise (or will come to recognise in a campaign) that independence still matters far more anyway.

      The others are diehard isolationists who are (among other things) distinctly anti-immigrant, and are entirely turned-off by Nicola’s (rightful) stance on that issue alone. They probably bought the BritNat lies in 2014 about leaving the EU. I don’t believe that this latter camp are in any way likely to return to the fold, no matter what we might try. A totally wasted effort. The first camp, on the other hand, will be persuadable by the usual arguments, and need no special attention. They might have to swallow some pride, but that’s everyday life in a democracy.

      What is necessary, on the other hand, is to convert a suitable fraction of the 55% of former no voters. Far richer pickings there, and moreover that’s visibly succeeding. More slowly than we would like, true, but maybe we find it difficult to appreciate how hard it is for some people to unpick a lifetime of embedded assumptions. But the grain of events is doing just that, and we need to work with the grain, not against it.

    167. CameronB Brodie says:

      ahundredthidiot
      The New Right is the name given to the right-wing Anglo-American politics, that has emerged in the USA the 1950s, and which was spearheaded by Enoch Powell in the UK. It is characterised by its blend of neo-liberal neo-conservatism and Christian fundamentalism.

    168. Scotspatriot says:

      This movement in the polls is solely down to inertia. Folks, in the main part, are not just yet ready to engage……but give it 4 weeks when they will struggle to fill up the car, or have enough in the pocket for treats….then watch the polls climb, and the pressure on Nicola to act.

      The secret of Political Success is judging the Turn of the Spring Tide to Perfection…..then we win big time !!

      It’s coming !

    169. CameronB Brodie says:

      I do know a bit about this stuff. 😉

      The ‘new right’ is not a reaction to neoliberalism, but its offspring

      The neoliberals’ impact on the “new right” is nowhere clearer than in the British hard right’s attempt to enforce a no-deal Brexit.

      https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can-europe-make-it/the-new-right-is-not-a-reaction-to-neoliberalism-but-its-offspring/

    170. Robert Peffers says:

      @Colin Alexander says: 5 August, 2019 at 12:55 pm:

      ” … Facts: The SNP are campaigning to prevent the UK leaving the EU. The SNP are especially opposed to No Deal “Hard Brexit”.”

      Oh! Dear! He is at it again. Sorry to tell you this – again – Colin but you saying something is a fact does not make it a fact – it makes it a claim.

      You need to back up your claims with proofs. Even if those proofs are only something like a reference to the claimed facts that can be looked up or at least the logic that explains what you claim.

    171. CameronB Brodie says:

      The full-English Brexit has been a long time in gestation.

      Book Review: English Uprising: Brexit and the Mainstreaming of the Far Right by Paul Stocker

      In England Uprising: Brexit and the Mainstreaming of the Far Right, Paul Stocker offers a historical account of the rise of far-right movements in the UK from the early twentieth century to the present, showing how the gradual mainstreaming of far-right discourse impacted upon the recent UK Brexit vote. This book is an excellent primer for those looking to understand the changing influence of the far right on modern British politics, writes Katherine Williams.

      https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lsereviewofbooks/2017/12/11/book-review-english-uprising-brexit-and-the-mainstreaming-of-the-far-right-by-paul-stocker/

    172. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      me @ 16:31,

      Oh, and as Kenny MacAskill reminds us in today’s paper, also by the (oft-forgotten) non-voters. Engaging and inspiring more of the uncommitted. (And by something a sight more effective than the trendy-lefty pretensions of RISE.)

    173. Calum McKay says:

      Expect a concerted attempt by labour in Scotland and the bbc inScotland over the coming days!

      Lots of Mara greetin, Kelly miscalculating, Leonard being confusing and some stooge from a once great trade union coming up with an opinion on hospitals given to him by labour!

      They are rattled, when rattled labour run to tories for advice and comfort!

    174. CameronB Brodie says:

      One Nation Torydum is dead, long live the New Right and Brexitania (Greater England).

      Don’t let them whitewash Brexit

      Since the EU referendum, Brexiters have desperately sought to maintain that the vote to leave had nothing to do with bigotry.

      Douglas Carswell argued that Brexit was “not an angry nativist xenophobic vote” but “won precisely because it was an argument about Britain being open, internationalist, generous, and globalist”. Michael Gove, aboard a special Sun on Sunday boat destined to deliver a mock, 6-foot Article 50 in person to Brussels (no, me neither), boldly proclaimed: “Soon the whole country will be setting sail with our eyes fixed on a broad new horizon as Britain goes global”.

      So there you have it. Brexit was not about Polish plumbers, Muslim refugees or even ‘taking back control’, but a cosmopolitan vision which sought to integrate Britain further into the wider world.

      This rose-tinted vision of Brexit, where Britain’s vote had more to do with internationalism than nativism, has its advocates and a decades-long intellectual history on the Tory right. But this was not the vision offered to voters during the referendum campaign.

      The free movement of people in the EU and immigration more broadly was the single biggest issue on the table. Eighty-eight per cent of those desiring fewer immigrants into the country plumped for Leave. One week prior to the vote, Ipsos MORI found that 54% of likely Leave voters considered immigration to be the most important issue guiding their vote. In another poll, over 80% of Brexit voters believed multiculturalism, immigration and social liberalism are a force for ill. In the final weeks of the official Vote Leave campaign, there was precious little said about ‘global Britain’ and much more about immigration and ‘taking back control’….

      https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2017/07/17/don-t-let-them-whitewash-brexit

    175. Legerwood says:

      Dr Jim @ 2.04 PM

      This ‘she said when polls at 60%’ was something Ms Sturgeon did not say. It seems to come from an interpretation by Prof Curtice of her remarks/speech at the SNP conference in October 2015.

      From BBC ‘live’ report of the speech to SNP Conference Oct 2015

      “”Holding its fire’
      Professor Curtice says Ms Sturgeon has effectively adopted the position of holding its fire until the polls show 60% support for independence for two years.
      He says she wants her own mandate for the next five years.””

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34560563

      Now read the relevant extracts from her speech to Conference in Oct 2015 and the relevant section from her opening remarks to conference in Oct 2015. Any mention by her of 60%?

      What Ms Sturgeon actually said in her speech to Conference in October 2015
      “”We believe that Scotland should be independent – we always have and we always will.
      As I said as our conference opened, the time to propose another referendum will be when there is clear evidence that opinion has changed and that independence has become the choice of a majority of people in Scotland.””

      https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2015/10/17/nicola-sturgeon-s-2015-conference-speech-in-full

      And from her opening remarks to that Conference a day or two earlier

      “” I believe with all my heart that Scotland should be an independent country.

      “”But I respect the decision that our country made last year.

      “”So let me be clear. To propose another referendum in the next parliament without strong evidence that a significant number of those who voted No have changed their minds would be wrong and we won’t do it.

      “”It would not be respecting the decision that people made.

      “”But, over the next few years, as the Tories impose even deeper cuts, press ahead with Trident renewal and fail to honour in full the vow of more powers for our parliament, I think support for independence will continue to rise.

      “”So let me also be clear about this.

      “”If there is strong and consistent evidence that people have changed their minds and that independence has become the choice of a clear majority in this country, then we have no right to rule out a referendum and we won’t do that either.””

      No mention of 60% there either. The figure appears to come from Prof Curtice’s not from anything Ms Sturgeon actually said or is there an interview of her saying that?

    176. Dr Jim says:

      A Lord Ashcroft poll on Independence for Scotland revealed a shock result showing that Independence for Scotland is the preferred option for a majority of Scots

      When the British Broadcasting Corporation were asked why this was not headline news they replied “Meh, we mentioned it on the wireless what more do you want” Our intrepid interviewer persisted by asking “Does the BBC not consider this massively important news in the constitutional debate within the UK”
      The BBC replied “We would need to see a number of polls suggesting this was an important event and this poll could be an outlier so not significant as it stands alone”
      Our reporter went on “So in the view of the BBC this poll signifies nothing?” “Exactly right, and until there are at least 30 or 40 polls showing the same thing Scotland’s preferences on anything cannot be a consideration when reporting news and if you’ll excuse us we have a Lodge meeting to go to” replied the spokesgit for the BBC

    177. Fireproofjim says:

      And remember. In 2014 we started with the polls at about 28% Yes, and got up to 45% on polling day.
      We will be above 50% at the start this time and we haven’t even started campaigning yet.

    178. Shug says:

      bbc Going hell for leather on the hospital story

      I do hope it is all resolved quickly and JF can debunk the bbc and trade union reporting

      Trade union chap spoke to a man who knew a chap who once said the whole thing will have to be tore down because the gutter leaked!!!!

      Got to be worth phoning call kaye

    179. HYUFD says:

      The Ashcroft poll is actually 46% Yes including Don’t Knows, where the 8% who are Don’t Know go will be crucial. Yes has not got over 50% yet.
      https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1158319227092254720?s=20

    180. carjamtic says:

      Re: BBC Reporting
      This may end up in front of a judge, who will decide (contractually) if there is any breach.

      Real experts will be called, if that is the case….they will not consult a handyman for opinion, likewise neither should the BBC/MSM.

      A very wise intervention by Jeane Freeman showing sound,responsible judgement, after all safety must come first and she also demonstrates her knowledge of how things work.

      In the old days, traditional Plan-Spec- Bid- Build process , promoted finger pointing ,generated expensive repairs, sacrificed quality in the name of the lowest price and discouraged creativity and innovation in the name of risk management.

      That goodness we live in modern times (where none of this happens, there is a systematic process in place that encourages quality workmanship, verified correct system operation and maintainability, provides training in operation and maintenance and thorough documentation) however people/contractors still make mistakes and are accountable/liable.

      I would commend Jeane Freeman for ‘stopping the job’ on safety reasons,to allow the on-site team to carry on with their investigation to establish if the Building Regulations Codes/Regulations/Specifications etc. have been met and contractual obligations fulfilled.

      But, but what the un-handy, handyman said, just doesn’t reflect the reality of the situation, is it not time for the BBC/MSM to stop with their stubborn politically biased reporting, or at least take their keyboards away from their handymen/women and give them to proper journalists.

    181. SilverDarling says:

      The one thing we can take from the polls is that there is a significant group of floating voters. Also we cannot make assumptions for voters whose votes were not canvassed.

      We cannot assume EU citizens will all vote Yes even if they get a vote. The Indy supporters may be planning to leave the UK already. The ones left may already be reconciled or pleased to be in a Brexit UK – they have their citizenship and vote Tory or even Brexit Party. We can’t assume all SNP voters will vote Yes as there are people who like the way the SNP run Scotland but only within the UK.

      We certainly can’t assume previous Yes voters who voted SNP will vote the same way.What about the North East Pelagic Fishermen?

      There is a group as RJS says whose vote to leave the UK assumed that by doing so they would leave the EU. They are Brexiteers first and foremost, on the Right but also on the Left, for example, Jim Sillars.

      So all these disparate groups are in the mix for now. People are complicated but yes, the poll is good news!

    182. In about 45 minutes times some wee talking head at pacific Quay will distort the Truth for money by yet again reporting that a Union Official warns that the Edinburgh hospital could be pulled down.
      If I were a Unison member, over 50% of whom are apparently pro independence according to the latest poll, I’d insist that MY Union stopped donating to the Red Tories, and I would be demanding that this non expert shop steward was removed from office and flushed down the drains.

    183. Ian Anderson says:

      As I recall Ashcroft’s surveys are big, and taken over a fairly lengthy period of time. Even if we assume the Johnson premiership is reflected, I suspect his ultra right cabinet, and hell for leather No Deal are not fully reflected in the poll.

    184. wull2 says:

      I can just about see the whites of there eyes, it is only the tears in mine from laughing that is stopping me.

    185. Garry says:

      I read elsewhere that the franchise didn’t include EU nationals , or 16-17 year olds, so it’s most likely the figure for pro indy would be greater.

    186. Maria F says:

      HYUFD says:
      5 August, 2019 at 5:24 pm
      “The Ashcroft poll is actually 46% Yes including Don’t Knows, where the 8% who are Don’t Know go will be crucial. Yes has not got over 50% yet”

      But you are missing the crucial point of the poll, HYUFD:

      No has lost not just the lead in the polls but actually has receded from the safe 50% position. From that poll, the colonialists cannot use anymore the argument that there is not enough support for independence in Scotland.

      According to that poll, and bearing in mind that poll does not include the 16-18 year old nor the EU citizens, the argument is now that there is not enough support in Scotland to justify the preservation of the UK, particularly if you also consider the polls of the tory voters in England.

      The tide has changed. In 2014 it was the Yes campaign who had the hard work to make the positive case for independence and to be subjected to all scrutiny. The no campaign had it easy: they just had to contain the support by focusing in the “don’t knows” and soft yes.

      Now it is the other way round. Now it is the no side who has to work hard at making the positive case for the union (as if there is one, so bring it on!!!!!). This poll means that project fear is not quite going to cut it for them this time.

      No has been put in this last poll at 43%, 3% behind Yes. Even if you add all the 8% don’t knows to the No vote, which is very unlikely to happen, No would amount to a maximum of 51%, that is already a 4% behind what it had in 2014 – in other words, even before the campaign started they have already lost 80% of their lead. I think this is huge.

      Remember that in January 2013 (only 6 years ago) No had a gargantuan support of 72%** and from that 72% it entered free fall until Brown, Cameron, Clegg and Miliband put the Devo Max and vow net to stop the fall. They claimed their campaign in 2014 was a success. I however think it was a complete disaster as they just about managed to contain the fall of the no support. Their problem today is that there is no net anymore. They broke it during the last 5 years with the weight of their deception. Their other wee problem is, of course, that the only way now to remain in the EU is to vote for Independence…

      **https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/jan/23/support-scottish-independence-slumps-lowest

    187. Lenny Hartley says:

      Ian Anderson , yeah your correct about Ashcrofts polls being big, the question is, does he conduct them via a third party like Panelbase or does he have his own polling organisation, if the latter there is another Poll with similar questions due out from Panelbase.

    188. Robert Peffers says:

      @Brian Lucey says:5 August, 2019 at 12:55 pm:

      ” … Except, the dilemma is that if you want to be in the EU, or indeed even recognized by any main player, you need to gain independence in a constitutional manner. That means, the existing polity of which you are a member needs to agree to have the relationship altered. So, like or no, the ball rests with the UK government.”

      First up is your claim that the signatories in an international treaty need the agreement of other parties in that international treaty to end the treaty. They don’t and several cabinet ministers of recent months are recorded in Hansard claiming just that.Anyway I have already explained what, “The constitution”, of the United Kingdom is, Brian, but perhaps it requires a little more explanation. The Westminster parliament a.k.a. The United Kingdom Parliament is exactly what it says it is in its title. It is, “The Parliament of the United Kingdom”, and the United Kingdom is the product of the 1706/7 “Treaty of Union”, which means the United Kingdom is,’constituted’, by the Treaty of Union.

      So let’s put that statement beyond argument by quoting the dictionary:-

      constitute – verb

      past tense: constituted; past participle: constituted.

      1. be (a part) of a whole.
      synonyms: amount to, add up to, account for, form, make up, compose, comprise, represent.

      Example – •combine to form (a whole).
      “there were enough members present to constitute a quorum”

      2. – give legal or constitutional form to (an institution); establish by law.

      Example – “the superior courts were constituted by the Judicature Acts 1873–5”

      Now Westminster, (wrongly), claims the United Kingdom has no written constitution but the Treaty of Union constituted the United Kingdom.

      Now there are only two signatory kingdoms on the Treaty of Union and that means it is legally exactly what the Treaty says it is – a two partner union of kingdoms.

      However, there are some other relevant facts. On 30 April 1707 the Kingdom of England parliament put itself into permanent recess and has never sat since. On 30 April 1707 the parliament of Scotland was prorogued and was reconvened by Winnie Ewing as the Holyrood Parliament but no English parliament has been elected since 30 April 1707.

      On 1 May 1707 the new parliament of the United Kingdom sat for the first time but it was not legally the parliament of England continued and the proof is in Hansard.

      Now of recent months the former Prime Minister and several Westminster Parliament Cabinet Ministers have stated in the House of Commons that any member state in an international Treaty can legally end the Treaty at will without even being required to state a reason and that too is recorded in Hansard.

      As far as Scotland is concerned there is a wee fly in the ointment. It is that neither the crown or the parliament are sovereign under Scots law and thus Nicola Sturgeon, or whoever is First Minister, have legal right to end the union without a majority mandate from the legally sovereign people of Scotland.

      However, here is another legal fact, Westminster cannot represent either of the two United Kingdom partners in a court of law because legally Westminster is the Union parliament and there is no such thing as a legally elected parliament of England so Westminster would legally be representing both kingdoms and, anyway the UK Supreme Court also represents both partner kingdoms and that cannot be legally allowed.

      But wait, it isn’t ended yet. The Queen of England is legally sovereign under English law but not under Scots law where she is legally defender of the people’s sovereignty and thus has conflicting interests.

      So under the Geneva Convention, the United Nations and the European Court of Human rights Westminster is signed up to human rights laws the main one of which is that any identifiable people have the right of self determination.

      Oh! Did I mention that when the Scottish Law Lord asserted, “The Scottish Claim Of Right”, in court Westminster did not oppose it. Do you know what the Scottish Claim of Right is, Brian?

      Perhaps you should look it up for by not contesting it Westminster nodded it through.

    189. galamcennalath says:

      Email from Nicola in her Leader of the SNP shoes. …

      ” Majority now back independence

      You might have heard the encouraging news earlier today.

      A new poll published this morning shows that a majority of people in Scotland now back independence, and favour a fresh referendum before 2021.

      This phenomenal Lord Ashcroft poll has support for Yes on 52 per cent.

      More and more people now think it’s time that Scotland took our own decisions and shaped our own future as a fair, prosperous, outward looking nation.

      Meanwhile this broken Westminster system is intent on dragging Scotland off a No Deal Brexit cliff edge led by Boris Johnson, a Prime Minister Scotland didn’t elect.

      It would be a democratic outrage for any Tory government to deny the people of Scotland a choice, and this poll shows such an anti-democratic position is completely unsustainable.

      But more work is required. I need your help to grow support for independence further still. I am asking you to share the independence pledge at http://www.yes.scot with your friends and family today.

      The more pledges we get, the more people we can inform about the positive case for Scottish independence.

      With your help we will put Scotland’s future in Scotland’s hands.

      Nicola Sturgeon
      Leader of the SNP “

    190. Old Pete says:

      Well, when are we actually going to physically vote to get our Independence? Surely it can’t be delayed for much longer ?

    191. Dr Jim says:

      Kilmarnock football club have refused to accept responsibility for the weakness of their turnstyles as visiting Rangers fans smashed their way through them in their *excitement* to see the game yesterday the BBC has confirmed, and that Rangers fans were kept waiting too long due to compulsory searches for incendiary devices

      In a last moment of *exuberance* when Rangers scored the vital goal to win the match Rangers supporters surged forward and were forced on to the roof of a structure housing disabled fans which because of it’s poor construction led to its collapse and injury of one supporter inside

      Y’see there’s what you’re up against in Scotland apparently it was all the fault of Kilmarnock Football club that their ground was invaded, their turnstyles smashed and their disabled viewing access was crushed and damaged by Rangers supporters *exuberance*

      Are there really some folk not getting this yet

    192. TheBuchanLoony says:

      A big turd has blocked ma Lavy pan!…does this mean I have to knock doon ma hoose??

    193. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Beautiful! Fuck off england.

    194. Robert Peffers says:

      @HYUFD says: 5 August, 2019 at 5:24 pm:

      ” … The Ashcroft poll is actually 46% Yes including Don’t Knows, where the 8% who are Don’t Know go will be crucial. Yes has not got over 50% yet.”

      Oh! Dear! Did you perhaps mean, “Yes has not got over 50% yet.in any opinion polls I’ve seen”?

      However, you don’t say if you have seen all opinion polls.

    195. CameronB Brodie says:

      Why do folk think the BBC in Scotland works so hard at selling British nationalism, apart from it being required by their royal charter? Why did they sell Farage and the full-English Brexit as wholesome, and a vote to leave the EU, simply a matter of cultural taste and patriotism? It is because the British state can only make claims to being a liberal democracy, the full-English Brexit highlighting it is, in fact, a right-wing, English, despotism.

      Britania waves the rules, as always. Such is the solidity of British cultural patriarchy.

      British Fascism & the Far Right — A Reader’s Guide

      ….Ford and Goodwin’s deservedly award-winning book is the definitive analysis of the social, cultural and economic underpinnings of the rise of the populist radical right party Ukip. While it is based on the very best political science methodology, the authors have taken care to ensure that the book is clearly written and accessible for non-specialists.

      It is essential reading to understand the appeal of the radical right in the UK to sections of the electorate and important background context for the Brexit result. Stocker’s book locates the Brexit vote in the longer term context of far-right ideas and policies becoming increasingly normalised and mainstream. It is particularly strong on the culpability of the tabloid media in this process.

      https://medium.com/@FFRBookSeries/british-fascism-the-far-right-a-readers-guide-a2430fd2407b

    196. defo says:

      TheBuchanLoony
      Depends whether it’s an SNP turd, or not.

    197. Maria F says:

      “Old Pete says:
      5 August, 2019 at 6:04 pm
      Well, when are we actually going to physically vote to get our Independence? Surely it can’t be delayed for much longer ?”

      Be patient, Old Pete. There is still plenty of room for more “no” and “don’t know” voters to give up on disgust at the clowns at Westminster and move across to the sanity of yes even before the actual campaign starts.

      There are still 87 days of the Westminster circus performance left and they are gearing themselves up to go away with a big, I mean huge, bang. Let the clowns do the campaigning for us, Old Pete, since they are so keen.

    198. Dr Jim says:

      STV does an amateur job of admitting Scotland is saying YES to Independence even though they use Professor Poultice to convolute the numbers he agrees that it is the case if the vote were today Independence would win

      If even the good Professor Poultice says so who represents Yoonland fact, then it’s a big fact……Fact!

    199. Dr Jim says:

      Any minute now Yoon world will be insisting on tablets of stone sent by God written in ancient Saxon that say 60% is required but only if it’s a Tuesday in March on a full moon and all by postal vote and must exclude all known Nationalists

    200. call me dave says:

      Well at least STV reported on the poll and Prof Curtis humphed and hawd finally shrugged that it was good news for the YES side. 🙂

      Mind you, they went full tonto on the hospital story with lashings of experts, like the union man and a couple of bewildered members of the public and Monica Lennon as the Labour cherry on the top! 🙁 FGS!

    201. CameronB Brodie says:

      Some more facts. Fact.

      The Social Consequences of Brexit for the UK and Europe

      Euroscepticism, Populism, Nationalism, and Societal Division1

      Abstract

      This article examines the 2016 Referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union and draws on initial research into the reasons that the UK voted to leave and demographics of the leave vote. This initial analysis suggests that the Brexit (British Exit) vote reveals wider and deeper societal tensions along the lines of age, class, income, and education (Goodwin and Heath 2016).

      By providing an account of the background and events of the referendum, this article asserts that the vote was a case study in populist right-wing Eurosceptic discourse (Leconte 2010; Taggart 2004), but it also reveals strong elements of English nationalism (including British exceptionalism and social conservatism) in parts of British society (Henderson et al. 2016; Wellings 2010). Given this, the article begins to make sense of Brexit from a social quality perspective and outlines a possible social quality approach to the UK and Europe post-Brexit.

      hira.hope.ac.uk/1822/1/Brexit%20and%20SQ%20SCorbett.docx.pdf

    202. Republicofscotland says:

      Well the ultra unionist STV news didn’t disappoint, they ran as their top story the hearsay that the Edinburgh Sick Kids new hospital might need to be pulled down.

      Not one shred of substantiated evidence was forthcoming by the unionist news channel.

    203. Sandy says:

      Edinburgh children’s hospital.

      Who were the architects/engineers in charge? Who were responsible for the signing off documentation?
      Therein lies the initial Investgation.

    204. David says:

      Well done you beat me to it Dr Jim haha I was going to say STV said the Poll was conducted the day after Boris was in Scotland as usual no one polled me .By coming round the doors like they used to.
      And only brief mention of Tesco job losses and no mention on National news of Harland and Wolf in administration

    205. manandboy says:

      Forget this, even momentarily, Scotland, at your peril.

      “Perfidious Albion is a pejorative phrase used within the context of international relations diplomacy to refer to alleged acts of diplomatic sleights, duplicity, treachery and hence infidelity (with respect to perceived promises made to or alliances formed with other nation states) by monarchs or governments of the UK (or England prior to 1707) in their pursuit of self-interest.

      Perfidious signifies one who does not keep his faith or word (from the Latin word perfidia), while Albion is an ancient and now poetic name for Great Britain.”

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfidious_Albion

    206. Sandy says:

      Knuckle-dusters more newsworthy than Scotland’s potential.

    207. RM says:

      Lord Ashcroft a specialist on reverse psychology, we’ll have to beware.

    208. Hamish100 says:

      Re the hospital,

      Is Waterson an example of a high powered union official?

      He disnae even know how drains work!

      I volunteer he GETS an enema.

    209. Sandy says:

      Sorry, Knuckle-draggers.

    210. call me dave says:

      @Hamish100

      He’s certainly an ‘enema’ of the SG and the SNHS and independence but a reader of the Herald which makes him an expert go to person!

    211. galamcennalath says:

      Another common BritNat ploy. In no real election or referendum do the don’t vote/don’t knows included in the final result

      And yet, when analysing polls in an attempt to deduce support for the various opinions/parties, the BritNats think we should keep the don’t vote/don’t knows figures in!

      Results in real votes are based only on folks who select a valid option/party. To get a feel how that might play out based on polling data, why would anyone sensibly keep the don’t vote/don’t knows in!?

      52% of those who selected a valid option said, chose YES. Any other jiggery pokery is bollocks.

    212. kapelmeister says:

      Whitehall, BBC Broadcasting House and Pacific Quay form a Bermuda Triangle in which dozens of pro-indy polls or SG success stories have mysteriously disappeared over the years.

      Maybe Channel 5 will be doing a documentary about these strange phenomena.

    213. manandboy says:

      If he were serious about polling, Lord Ashcroft might consider a poll of the 60 or so former colonies of the ‘British’ Empire, and seek their advice to Scotland on the subject of Independence and ending the Union.

      But neither he, nor any other polling organisation, will be doing that anytime in the next few years, for the obvious reasons.

      Lord Ashcroft will not be doing Scotland any favours whatsoever re Independence. Including in his polling ‘results’.
      Further, it will only take another poll in the next few days, from a different company, which shows a less favourable result for Yes, or a favourable result for No, to effectively counter the impact of the Ashcroft poll.

    214. Colin Alexander says:

      @ Robert Peffers

      Nice to see you contributing to debate again, sir.

      As it’s you Robert:

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17814509.blackford-calls-all-party-block-no-deal-brexit/

    215. Republicofscotland says:

      Incase anyone missed it here Prof. Robertson burst the BBC’s completely unsubstantiated claims on the Edinburgh Sick Kids hospital.

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2019/08/05/the-tory-unison-axis-of-evil-against-the-snp-government-brings-you-things-are-bad-so-dont-think-about-changing-anything-every-30-minutes-on-bbc-sc/

    216. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Back to your usual Anglophobic shite @Reluctant Nationalist says at 6:12pm

      How about you fuck off?

    217. jfngw says:

      @HYUFD

      The don’t knows may end up not voting, it may just be too difficult. For an explanation of this principle I suggest you contact Kirstene Hair MP.

    218. Clydebuilt says:

      Re Ashcroft’s poll . . . Mark Diffley (polster) has pointed out that 16 and 17 yr olds have been omitted. So the further in the future Indy Ref2 is the more Yes shoild benefit from this omission.

    219. HYUFD says:

      Maria F I have no doubt that the Brexit vote + No Deal would make a second independence referendum closer (though 68% of Scottish Leavers still back No even if 59% of Scottish Remainers now back Yes) but as you say if the Don’t Knows all go No, No would win 51% to 49%. That is exactly the margin No won by in Quebec in 1995 when Yes to independence from Canada led most final polls but No won 51% to 49% thanks to Don’t Knows going their way

    220. jfngw says:

      Apparently the BBC have guidelines that they stick to religiously, like not relying on a single unsubstantiated source to run a headline story. If the hospital is not ‘pulled down’ can we then file this under fake news.

      As someone has noted on twitter has UNISON declared their position on the Whaley Bridge dam and whether it needs to be pulled down, and why has the BBC not given us the UNISON gossip about what needs to happen and who should resign.

    221. CameronB Brodie says:

      HYUFD
      So do you think it morally justifiable that right-wing English populism harms Scotland’s civil society, Toryboy?

    222. Artyhetty says:

      I think, at this stage, Craig Murray’s take on this whole thing is exremely pertinent.

      Go have a read if you haven’t already.

      It’s a case of, we can’t save England from themselves, it’s no longer feasible, or appropriate or in Scotland’s interests to make the case for Brexit being cancelled, it will not be cancelled, end of.

      Still, hold steady, a few obstacles to manoeuvre around yet!
      Let’s hope the 92% of SNP who DO want independence, have some good ideas and plans up their sleeves!

    223. CameronB Brodie says:

      HYUFD
      Is this what you support? Is this what you would impose on Scotland?

      Understanding the Mainstreaming of the Far Right

      Aurelien Mondon is Senior Lecturer in Politics at the University of Bath. Working with Aaron Winter, his work looks at the relationship between the far right and the mainstream, with a particular focus on racism. Aaron Winter is Senior Lecturer in Criminology at University of East London. Together with Aurelien Mondon he is currently working on the book Reactionary Democracy: populism, racism, the far right and ‘the people’.

      It is essential to move beyond electoral politics to understand the way the far right is being mainstreamed. It involves asking, “is there any such thing as public opinion” ?
      https://blogs.bath.ac.uk/iprblog/2018/10/04/understanding-the-mainstreaming-of-the-far-right/

    224. Artyhetty says:

      16/17 year olds vote last time was huge for YES. If that section of Scottish voters has been omitted in this poll, does it not stand to reason, like, a rational, logical conclusion, that YES is now way ahead of the British nationalists’ no vote.

      Hmm, there must be some very worried Britnat troughers on their fancy hols now absolutely panicking. They will all sleep well the night, not!

    225. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Republicofscotland

      I heard some union guy on the radio dropping that bombshell, on the way home and thought WTF?

      Pull a brand new building down because of hearsay claiming that the drains are in some unspecified way and to an unknown extent sub-standard, on the say-so of a self-certified non-expert.

      Then they wheeled in an array of Unionist politicians who predictably and with one voice – demanded answers from the SNP!

      The Air-Con issue is at least real and we should be grateful that it has been flagged up, before the place has opened.

      I once watched hard-pressed staff and anxious parents in the children’s ward at the old Stirling Royal, shuffling an inadequate number of desk fans between sick patients, in 30+ temperatures, because the ventilation did not work.

      Not an experience I would wish to repeat.

    226. Cubby says:

      Brian Lucey and HYFUD

      Why don’t you both take a hike with your garbage. Lies and misinformation from a couple of anti independence diddies.

    227. Hamish100 says:

      Hyfud keeps quoting Canada. Are you from there or based there. Either way your preaching ain’t working.

      Either way your discomfort is noticeable along with the MSM concerted attack on the snp today joined by the Tories, Labour and UNISON.

      Coincidence? Of course not.

      We have all grown wiser since 2014 hence the positive majority for independence.

    228. Cubby says:

      STV News at Six

      The Ashcroft poll is reported on with a very heavy dose of spin to try and downgrade its accuracy/ significance. A different approach to the BBC but still anti independence propaganda.

      Oh and if you didn’t know STV tells us the Scotgov is against deaf children and preventing them realising their potential. It’s amazing anyone votes for the SNP.

    229. HYUFD says:

      Hamish100 46% for independence including Don’t Knows on the Ashcroft poll is still not a majority for independence if the 8% who Don’t Know vote No

    230. CameronB Brodie says:

      Hamish100
      HYUFD is based in England and once had ambitions to become a Tory local councilor. British nationalism, a.k.a. expansionist English nationalism, is an expression of Tory ethos and tradition, so he isn’t exactly impartial.

      HYUFD
      Eh Toryboy? Still not a supporter of ethical rationalism or universal human rights?

    231. SilverDarling says:

      @HYUFD

      We are not Quebec.

      Our circumstances are quite different and your simplistic projection seems to be based on the assumption that because Quebec had 2 votes and voted No, ergo if we have 2 votes we will vote No especially if we lead in the polling, like the Parti Quebecois.

      Eh?

      How on earth can you can assume all the Don’t Knows would vote No? There is not one demographic that votes the same way every time, anywhere, ever – not in a Democracy anyway.

    232. Dr Jim says:

      It reinforces the 57% for YES poll that David Lidington refused to release claiming it wasn’t in the public interest even though the Tories used public money to commission it

      Many previous NO voters are now seeing the inevitable and though they may not vote YES it looks like now they will not vote against the Independence proposition so they’ll have something to complain about after, also now that we see banners with Rangers supporters for YES at the marches people are becoming less afraid of the Unionists threats

      People who normally vote but say they don’t know which way to vote tell lies about that depending on who they think’s asking

    233. galamcennalath says:

      Cubby says:

      It’s amazing anyone votes for the SNP.

      I know. The incompetent government of a shit hole country capable of doing nothing without help.

      Truth is, it’s amazing that there are still folks around who are so blinkered, they believe that nonsense.

      it’s inevitable the Scottish Government will make mistakes, but how could you tell it’s not just more fake news!?

      Q How can you tell a news channel is running fake news?

      A Because you get charged a license fee to watch it.

    234. Lenny Hartley says:

      Arthetty James Kelly (no not that one) reckons 16/17 year old will add 1% to the yes vote.

    235. Iain 2 says:

      Its a shock that the bbc is a liar, who knew.
      Who would have thought the propaganda would be a liar.
      And some of us pay for it.
      .

    236. doug_bryce says:

      re : EU nationals
      Based on 2014 result the required swing from NO->YES is 200K.

      There are ~200K EU nationals eligible to vote in Scotland. Arguably fear of leaving EU would have made them more likely to vote NO in 2014. It is absolutely essential Scottish government push for their rights to vote in IndyRef2.0 as they could be the difference.

      If UK government refuse then we request franchise is restricted to those born in Scotland.

    237. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ah, the BritNats are defo getting worried now, since HYDUD is out in force again… =laugh=

    238. Chang Sha says:

      @Cubby
      Your lumping of Brian Lucey in with HYUFD is slightly misguided to put it mildly
      He’s Professor of Finance at the School of Business, Trinity College Dublin & he’s posting under his real name
      His details can be found here https://brianmlucey.wordpress.com/
      I believe he has an interest in Scottish independence; like a lot of us here in Ireland I might add

    239. Proud Cybernat says:

      HYFUD suddenly appears when YES take the lead.

      Speaks volumes.

    240. call me dave says:

      Nicola Sturgeon points to ‘growing urgency’ for Scottish independence

      http://archive.is/QQXYF

    241. Colin Alexander says:

      We can’t assume EU nationals will vote YES.

      Many may leave.

      Also, the UK Govt could “promise” or Vow a special deal for EU nationals to buy their NO vote. Whilst, at the same time threatening that if Scotland votes YES, EU nationals will be deported. (Then renege, of course, once the voting is finished).

      EU nationals were fooled last time, we can’t assume many wouldn’t be fooled again.

    242. Cubby says:

      Chang Sha @9.15pm

      Don’t think so. I’ll stick with my anti independence diddy comment.

      I am well aware of who he is. Unlike some I base my comments on what people say not who they are or what academic qualifications they may have. He may have an interest in Scottish independence but not a helpful one in my experience.

      If I followed your approach I would also bow down to Sir Professor Poultice. Not going to happen.

    243. Hamish100 says:

      CAlexander. pathetic.

      EU citizens will vote for Scotland in the EU and by doing so why would they leave? In 2014 they were scared into voting No as the unionists said Scotland would be removed from the EU if we voted for Independence. As we know just one of many lies.

      They may leave England however as they see the racist Tory government of Johnson wanting to blame immigrants of all hues for Westminster woes. Another lie.

    244. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Colin Alexander @ 21:36,

      Crivvens, you’re really scraping the barrel now.

      Maybe even Nicola might vote no.

      (Or then again, maybe not.)

    245. Hamish100 says:

      BBC hospital story placed on the web over 10 hours ago.

      Independence poll just in the past hour.

      Quite clearly a deliberate act by the BBC to suppress news. Why deliberate? Well they can’t be so incompetent all of the time? can they?

    246. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim 20:23,

      That’s another important point. You can sometimes win just by disheartening the opposition and thereby suppressing their vote, even if you can’t capture all of it yourself.

      Trump (with a little help from his overseas friends) did this to the Democrats last US elections, and the Tories arguably did it to us in 2017, but the way things are going, it could very well be the other way round and indy the beneficiary in IR2.

    247. SilverDarling says:

      Much as it pains me Colin Alexander may have a point. To lump all EU citizens as Yes voters is naive. According to Scotgov figures 12000 EU nationals left the Scottish labour market lat year.

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-48446468

      The figures may go up even more.Spouses not getting settled status, contracts not being renewed and general anxiety about status may mean many potential Yes voters will leave ahead of IndyRef2.

      Also to assume all EU citizens support Indy is optimistic. We like to assume people vote as one unified mass but they don’t. It may suit some right wing EU nationals living and working in the UK and even in Scotland to vote against Indy to promote the idea of a less diverse society.

    248. SilverDarling says:

      I think that is why the referendum legislation put forward by the Mike Russell is so important. To be able to determine the framework of the vote is essential.

      If the Scottish government can guarantee settled status for EU nationals and that settled status guarantees EU nationals have a vote it may make more want to stay assuming they are not booted out by the UK government in the meantime.

      Assume nothing from this UK government though.

    249. Phronesis says:

      The most pressing issues that should be addressed by all governments today.

      ‘However, it is increasingly clear that the resolution of the climate challenge will not be possible without a strong movement in the direction of the compression of social inequalities at all levels. With the present magnitude of inequality, the advance towards austerity of energy will be wishful thinking. In the first instance because carbon emissions are strongly concentrated amongst the rich. At world level, the richest 10% are responsible for almost half the emissions and the top 1% alone emit more carbon than the poorest half of the planet’

      https://www.lemonde.fr/blog/piketty/2019/06/11/the-illusion-of-centrist-ecology/

      Look towards Scotland, that plucky wee country punching above its weight by already addressing both issues . A model of aspirational, localised and progressive democracy.

      https://www.gov.scot/policies/renewable-and-low-carbon-energy/

      https://www2.gov.scot/About/Performance/scotPerforms/outcome/inequalities

      Scotland,the country, has demonstrated a steely resilience despite the constant denigration and apocryphal tales of Scotland’s ability to fully govern itself. The UK ties that bind us are fast becoming ligatures that are asphyxiating Scotland’s potential, dragging Scotland down to WM base level with its government that is stuffed full of ‘career psychopaths’ whose egos are inversely proportional to their political competency and ethical calculus . It is a government that is the polar opposite of strong and stable and has been foisted on Scotland by way of non democratic means. It is time to restore Scotland’s status as an independent nation, fully in control of its own future.

      ‘Boris Johnson has mugged and gurned his way into Number Ten, through a leadership contest with a virtually preordained conclusion. The appointment of Dominic Cummings, the abrasive former Vote Leave director once called a ‘career psychopath’ by David Cameron…recently found in contempt of Parliament…reveals the uncomfortable truth beneath the ersatz sunshine and wishful thinking: Johnson’s party is fractured, his options are few, and his hand is weak’

      https://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2019/july/bring-your-own-sunshine?

    250. Sinky says:

      Great front page in The National tomorrow. I’m sure BBC and Sky newspaper reviews will cover this in some detail as it has implications for their beloved Union

    251. kapelmeister says:

      For the BBC polls “show” a majority for the union and polls “suggest” a majority for independence.

    252. doug_bryce says:

      @Colin Alexander

      My personal experience (based on friends / colleagues) is that EU nationals resident in Scotland and eligible to vote are generally now pro-indy.

      In general EU workers in UK see Brexit as a threat on their right to live here (even if they feel like Scotland is adopted home).

      Scottish government would be mad not fight tooth and nail for this demographic to be given vote in 2014. Not least because it easy counter argument to any claim of “nationalism”.

    253. galamcennalath says:

      Stories coming out of Downing Street and from the EU after a meeting today of diplomats – everyone is working towards a ‘no deal’ Brexit. It’s now accepted that any alternatives seem unlikely.

    254. ben madigan says:

      latest comments on events in Northern Ireland and Scotland – enjoy

      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2019/08/05/the-dup-paper-tiger/

    255. Dan says:

      @SilverDarling re. EU nationals

      Info relating to EU citizens living in Scotland after Brexit.
      I understand the application charge that was previously in place up to the planned UK leaving EU date of March 31st 2019 has now been dropped.

      https://www.mygov.scot/eu-exit-citizens/

      It seems as of end of May this year, uptake in Scotland of EU Settlement Scheme applications has been slow according to the following article, with just over 30K out of over 200K applying so far.

      https://www.scottishlegal.com/article/eu-settlement-scheme-has-only-31-000-scottish-applicants

    256. Cubby says:

      BBC Scotland

      The Nine

      How did this joke of a programme cover the Ashcroft poll. Not in the headlines at the start but a story about a criminal/prisoner in Brazil donning a rubber face mask to attempt an escape made it.

      Note this is an hour long programme – up popped a few seconds report saying a new poll suggests a majority for Scottish independence. One of the presenters had to force herself to remove the grimace from her face. Contrast this with an in depth analysis of the roof at the Kilmarnock football ground and interviews etc etc re football hooliganism. Also a well known favourite interest of all Scots – how England got on at the cricket in England. Lots more news from England. Funny how they do not blame the UK gov for the Derbyshire dam problem. One things for certain you won’t learn much about Scotland watching the Nine.

      This is not really a propaganda programme – just a total joke. BBC Scotland trolling Scotland.

    257. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      SilverDarling @ 22:07,

      All of which is rather stating the obvious, don’t you think? No general selection of individuals votes as a rigidly uniform bloc. But Doug Bryce’s original point @ 21:10 still largely stands.

      I know that politics is often a thankless business, but surely the very fact that the SG is striving to ensure that they do get a vote (on everything) tells them something significant and worth defending in turn?

    258. Effijy says:

      UK media unbelievable in finding fruit cakes in the street who
      Will spew out the distorted message they are after.

      Female shopper in Kilmarnock not happy that Rugby Park
      Wasn’t facilitated to keep safe rampaging hooligans jumping
      On to no step roof sheltering the disabled?

      Boris do the Tory hospital visit trick of jacket off and rolled up
      Shirts sleeves. Does anyone think Bojo empties a bed pad, charged
      A soiled bed or gave a bed bath.
      All the Tories do in hospitals are cut budgets and make photo opportunities.

      This crap about the new Edinburgh hospital having a ventilation problem
      And perhaps needing to be demolished.
      Why on earth would that happen instead of just fixing the troublesome components
      Of the new system.

      Also why would the Labour Trade unionist claim to have more info on the matter
      Than the Architect, the Ventilation manager, the site manager, the Hospital Trust
      And the health secretary???
      The lying bastard only knows how to say SNP Bad like a demented parrot.

      Also complaint about the cost of the project and final costs with interests.
      It’s portrayed as bad business but it half the rate Gordon Brown crippled us with
      In the PFI debacle.

    259. Colin Alexander says:

      Re EU Nationals.

      Maybe YES should have pro-indy leaflets / info in Polish and Romanian languages especially, if they don’t already have them?

    260. SilverDarling says:

      @Dan

      Those figures are a concern and may indicate many EU nationals are waiting to see what happens or, worse case scenario, already planning to leave.

      @ Robert J Sutherland

      I often feel I state the obvious (!) but I suppose I get a bit irritated by the assumptions that Indy voters are a homogeneous bunch who agree on everything when the only thing many agree on is Indy!

      My personal experience of EU nationals is they mostly are now firmly behind Indy and they appreciate what the SG is trying to do. They understand the UK govt role in this but they do know of EU nationals who paradoxically are as Brexity as it is possible to be.

    261. call me dave says:

      Jings! That’s a bonnie front page in ‘The National’

      It’ll be hunt the thimble tomorrow in some newsagents. 🙂

      A big blue. 52%

    262. Capella says:

      It took the BBC 12 hours to come up with a frame for the Ashcroft poll news. So it’s really Nicola Sturgeon bigging up one poll, which may or may not be significant, who knows, or cares etc etc.

      Now, in Lord Ashcroft’s poll we have 54% of Remain voters saying they’d vote Yes and only 37% saying they’d vote No. If you do the equivalent analysis among those who voted to leave, you do not find any change in support for independence at all…
      That said – this is a very close result, it is only one poll and if indeed the true position is that perhaps Scotland is split pretty close to 50-50, we are going to get the occasional poll saying the majority are in favour, and we are going to get the occasional poll saying there’s a majority against.

      Also, we don’t want any more divisive democracy, says a Tory spokesman.

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49243355

    263. TheBuchanLoony says:

      defo @ 6.21…Whit are ye doing in ma pan blockin’ ma lavy!

    264. manandboy says:

      I can only think that in an Independent Scotland, the rest of my life will be the best of my life.

    265. Dr Jim says:

      Tonights top Trolling news …….Scotland’s First Minister is monstered by as many Trolls as the Unionists can muster as she meets the Unicef chief Henrietta Fore at Bute House as Unicef congratulates her on Scotland’s work towards being the best country in the world to grow up and the world leading incorporation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child into law in Scotland

      Then the FM hosts a reception for reps artists and organisers international visitors and curators from around the world in celebration of Edinburgh’s festivals

      Unionists don’t even seem to realise how much they hate their own country when the world is telling them the SNP are doing a fantastic job yet they still believe British Nationalist and sectarian propaganda

      The United Nations says the SNP are doing a great job in Scotland, Unicef are saying it, yet the Unionists insist they’re lying or in the pay of the SNP, there seems no depths to which Unionists won’t sink to denigrate these achievements for their masters in England

      We’re winning and the world likes us, well most of us

    266. Legerwood says:

      Effijy @ 10.59 PM

      “”Also complaint about the cost of the project and final costs with interests.
      It’s portrayed as bad business but it half the rate Gordon Brown crippled us with
      In the PFI debacle.””
      …..

      The new sick kids hospital cost £150 million to build and using the SG’s funding model will cost £432 million over 25 years.

      Its neighbour, the new Edinburgh Royal Infirmary built under Labour’s PFI by the Scottish Executive was budgeted at £150 million to build but cost £184 million and will, under PFI, have a final cost of £1.6 Billion and will NEVER be owned by Lothian Health Board.

      In addition a private company was given the contract to run the parking at the hospital so visitors and staff have to pay parking charges although I think they are capped but that maybe because the SG intervened when it took over from the SE.

      Because the Health Board are just in effect leading ERI they have to negotiate with the PFI consortium if they want to make any changes within the hospital eg change of use of rooms/wards etc.

    267. Petra says:

      @ Legerwood says at 4:57 pm …. ”This ‘she said when polls at 60%’ was something Ms Sturgeon did not say. It seems to come from an interpretation by Prof Curtice of her remarks/speech at the SNP conference in October 2015.”..

      Thanks for taking the time to cover this issue Legerwood. Another ”myth” bites the dust.

      …………………………

      @ Effijy says at 10:59 pm ..”This crap about the new Edinburgh hospital having a ventilation problem and perhaps needing to be demolished. Why on earth would that happen instead of just fixing the troublesome components of the new system. Also why would the Labour Trade unionist claim to have more info on the matter Than the Architect, the Ventilation manager, the site manager, the Hospital Trust And the health secretary??? The lying bastard only knows how to say SNP Bad like a demented parrot. Also complaint about the cost of the project and final costs with interests. It’s portrayed as bad business but it half the rate Gordon Brown crippled us with the PFI debacle.”

      I reckon Effijy just as the Unionist politicians at Holyrood take their orders from London, so too do the Unions in Scotland (other than the EIS … maybe?). You know the wee order to, ”do what you can to bring the SNP Government down.” It would suit them better, such as Unison, to deal with their MANY stinking, crumbling hospitals in England, imo. Note that Unison has something to say about the situation, but what are they actually doing about it? Nought … nor recommending that they are all ”ripped down”?

      ‘REVEALED: The “crumbling state” of England’s hospitals.’

      ..”it was reported that faeces were “coming through the floor” in a ward corridor. When the maintenance team tried to deal with a backed-up drain at one West Midlands trust, sewage spurted up through a patient’s bathroom sink.”..

      https://theovertake.com/~beta/revealed-the-crumbling-state-of-englands-hospitals/

      ……………………..

      Tom Waterson, a Unison official, who’s not an engineer or even a plumber, reckons that issues with drainage at Edinburgh Hospital may result in it being ”ripped down”.

      We could do with Tom visiting Westminster to protect the 8,000 or so workers there. Seemingly it’s a fire risk (caught fire 40 times between 2008 and 2012), is insanitary with stinking toilets and leaking sewage pipes, is infested with vermin, is in danger of flooding and has asbestos worming its way through the building. Many of the pipes and cables that carry heat, water, electricity and gas were installed in the 19th century and have water leaking onto electricity cables and steam pipes likely to crack, leak or explode. And on the outside masonry is breaking away and crashing to the ground.

      No mention of anyone ”ripping” that building down either, rather just spending at least £4 billion (and rising) of tax-payers money to renovate it.

      …………………….

      @ Abulhaq says at 4:08 pm … ”Pertinent excerpts from Craig Murray’s blog.”..

      Craig Murray chuntering on again with his latest snippets of advice. If we had listened to him, and not Nicola Sturgeon, we would have lost Indyref2 by now. Nicola Sturgeon has to cover all eventualities including a repeat of the Scots letting her (and Alex Salmond) down in 2014. Can you imagine what would happen if she held and lost Indyref2 and hadn’t done her utmost to put a halt to or mitigate the impact of Brexit on Scotland? She’d be a dead duck and we’d be in some mess. Instead she’s working on Brexit in conjunction with Independence. Support for Independence is rising and when the time is right NS, not Craig Murray, will get us out of this mayhem. He says that he wants Scottish Independence and yet since he was rejected by the SNP he has done his utmost to discredit them, the only political party capable of dissolving this Union. More so he’s gone all-out, via his site, to turn others against Nicola Sturgeon / the SNP. How does that equate to helping the Independence cause? We’re also being subjected to his overactive imagination running away with him again. Accusing people, SNP politicians, when he has absolutely NO evidence to corroborate his comments. Not exactly a great role-model, imo, for an Independent Scotland.

    268. Thepnr says:

      Something is stirring, there is a change afoot. Do you sense it?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkADj0TPrJA

    269. call me dave says:

      Laughed at this one from WoS twitter:
      ……………………………………………………..
      BREAKING:

      BBC Scotland is reporting that Unison official Tom Waterson is on his way to Whaley Bridge to offer expert advice to engineers working on the leaking dam.

    270. Petra says:

      Another excellent post Legerwood. I just love to have ”facts” at my disposal when entering into a discussion with others: So yes thanks for that one.

      @ Legerwood says at 11:28 pm …

      ”The new sick kids hospital cost £150 million to build and using the SG’s funding model will cost £432 million over 25 years.

      Its neighbour, the new Edinburgh Royal Infirmary built under Labour’s PFI by the Scottish Executive was budgeted at £150 million to build but cost £184 million and will, under PFI, have a final cost of £1.6 Billion and will NEVER be owned by Lothian Health Board.”…

    271. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Petra at 11.35

      Super post. Keep it up. Craig Murray is a liability. I listened to hima at a HOF rally in George square and I recognised a man saying what he thought the crowd wanted to hear.
      I’ve been a this for 60 years this year and I see things in a very different light now.

      Hitory will ask some very pertinant questions about some among us.Just recognise that if you intend to do maximum damage to any cause you have to climb high in it first.

    272. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Just posted previous comment without correcting it. Sorry for the typos

    273. call me dave says:

      @Thepnr

      Excellent: Granddaughter’s first choice on the car dvd player drives me mad.

      She loves this gorilla too: As below.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHjieD6CTYs

      Ah well “tomorrow is another day in Scotland” 🙂

    274. Thepnr says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill

      The typos don’t matter, we get the jist and I agree with every word.

    275. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dave McEwan Hill @ 23:57,

      Hmmm. Well observed. I rather tend to agree.

      (Doesn’t seem to be working, though.)

    276. Thepnr says:

      @call me dave

      Absolute class much better version than the official one, your grand daughter knows her stuff. Scotland’s future is surely in good hands 🙂

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHjieD6CTYs

    277. Thepnr says:

      I find it really difficult to believe that some people who are not well off will still vote for the Tories when the evidence is staring them in the face that Tories don’t help anyone except the most wealthy.

      Wage growth accelerated to 3.6% in the year to May, according to the Office for National Statistics. However, when adjusted for inflation, pay remains below the average recorded before the 2008 financial crisis.

      Average pay in May this year was £468 a week when adjusted for inflation compared to the pre-recession peak of £473 a week in April 2008.

      So after nearly 10 years of the Tories in charge the majority are worse off. That’s simply a fact and Scotland and it’s people need to make their choice clear.

      It is only with independence and a government with the Scottish peoples interests at it’s heart will Scotland prosper. We need to combat the naysayers among us and the MSM by providing the facts to those that no no better.

      Find a friend and tell them why Scotland must be Independent.

    278. Thepnr says:

      Link to that quote in the BBC article.

      http://archive.fo/zN9wQ

    279. Cubby says:

      A goodnight message for all the Britnats on Wings. Hope it gives you nightmares.

      52% and rising.

      52% and rising.

      52% and rising.

      52% and rising.

      Many thanks Your LORDSHIP.

    280. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Legerwood @ 16:57,
      Petra 11:35,

      Back in Oct.2015, it was an entirely different context. Nicola was being careful to assure people that as new FM in her turn she was fully prepared to respect the result of the previous year and didn’t intend to recklessly launch into another indyref without firm evidence of sustained support. (Brexit after all was only a small dot on the horizon at that time.)

      It’s true that she said nothing explicitly in public about “60%” but we must in turn recognise that it didn’t come out of nowhere either. It’s clear from the reports at the time that it wasn’t merely a media invention, or a misunderstanding of Curtice, but neither was it a formal promise, merely an indication of SNP leadership thinking at that time.

      From The Herald of 18.Oct.2015:

      The SNP will not seek another Scottish independence referendum until polls consistently show more than 60% of the public would vote to leave the UK, it has been claimed.

      First Minister Nicola Sturgeon […] has suggested that a new vote could be triggered if the coming in/out referendum sees Britain exit the EU in defiance of Scottish wishes.

      But senior SNP sources are said to have told BBC Radio 5 Live’s Pienaar’s Politics that they have also set a “test” of polls showing at least 60% support for independence for more than a year.

      “Senior SNP sources”, note.

      The BBC has a similar article of the very same date:

      SNP ‘has referendum benchmark’, BBC learns

      A level of 60% support for Scottish independence over the period of a year has been identified as a benchmark in making the decision over a second referendum, senior SNP sources say.

      The figure is a “trigger point”, but will not be publicly acknowledged, sources told the BBC’s John Pienaar.

      […]

      But sources close to Ms Sturgeon said the benchmark was vital to ensure support for independence had become the “settled will” of the Scottish people.

      “Six months of polls won’t be enough,” said a senior SNP figure, involved in the discussions.

      “Not publicly acknowledged”, but nevertheless existing in some sense at least.

      Two takeaways from that: firstly that the SNP leadership at the time were very reluctant to launch into another indyref without firm evidence of sustained support (and how very prudent of them that was too) and secondly they had a private benchmark in mind that was… =errrm= …private and not for publication or quoting. (Which the media did anyway.) I think the SNP had already learned from the “generation” thing and how that was egregiously misused.

      That period was followed in very short order by the SGE of 2016, in which the SNP had a very-astutely written manifesto which formally encoded the mandate as we know it today, with the explicit phrase “clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people” followed by the alternative “if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances” etc, etc.. So not only was – and is – there no “60%” hurdle, the hurdle expressed there is clearly “50%”, and over an unspecified period.

      Well, that period began today. So the clock is ticking. Though it was already ticking anyway with a timeout this coming Halloween. But it’s just so typical of BritNattery that rather than face up to realities they prefer to try to twist anything and everything completely out of shape and context as a pathetic attempt at distraction, out of their own desperation to hide the increasingly obvious: the tide’s coming in and they are about to go under.

    281. mike cassidy says:

      So John Pienaar comes out with the 60% figure

      And credits senior SNP sources.

      And he then becomes the source of the sources story.

      Well clearly it must be true.

    282. Sinky says:

      It says something when the North British newspaper aka Scotsman fails to mention 52% Indy support on front page.
      Even the Daily Mail couldn’t bury the story like the BBC news editors did

    283. Capella says:

      Both the Scotsman and the Herald front pages lead with Nicola Sturgeon’s “anguish” over the Alex Salmond case. The Herald does mention the 52% poll at the bottom of the page but journalists at the Scotsman don’t deem it important enough.

      I think we can see where they will be going over the coming campaign for independence.

    284. sassenach says:

      Indeed, the sh*t is really hitting the fan, now!

      So many journalists will be trying all, and every, deflection tactics to deflate us after the new poll.

      Time to hold firm!

    285. Footsoldier says:

      The usual take on the English and Scottish newspaper versions. On BBC Scotland, most Scottish editions mention the 52% poll on their front page.

      On BBC UK in the English editions (English editions on UK section?)it does not rate a single mention on any of the front pages displayed.

      It only matters when they need our assets. The plan to Union Jack everything will hopefully work against them – a bit like having Redcoats everywhere.

    286. Abulhaq says:

      @Petra 11:35
      Murray is a species of devil’s advocate. He does not present the rosy tint view. Scottish nationalism has a fatal tendency to adopt the latter making the cause look amateur and naïve in the process; “Free by 2003” a slogan attributed to a certain Mr. Salmond.
      Nothing is inevitable, nothing is written unless well written by the victors. 52% for independence is within the margins of error, >60% is what we ought to be expecting at this stage.
      The SNP leadership Brexit idée fixe is costing time and support particularly among the young and all that in a country with major demographic challenges.
      This is a strategic rut leading away from independence. We can and must do better than this one woman show. This is an act over-running. Time to call “time”.

    287. ScotsRenewables says:

      Oh dear abulhaq, your posts are beginning to reek of panic.

    288. Capella says:

      Nice wee video in the YES campaign website

      https://www.yes.scot

    289. Abulhaq says:

      @ScotsRenewables
      Not panic, just bloodlust, and interpret that how you will. To paraphrase an ex FM this is a once in a century opportunity, the cards are stacked in our favour.
      Just deal them!

    290. galamcennalath says:

      Re 60% threshold.

      Remember, the 2016 manifesto pledge had two conditions for IndyRef2 – either substantial demand for one OR a significant change in circumstances like being dragged out of the EU.

      I can’t find the exact words, but we’ve all read them.

      Perhaps someone in the heirachy said or implied that substantial meant 60%, or maybe they didn’t and it was media extrapolation or fabrication.

      That doesn’t matter because the two manifesto conditions were OR, not AND. The second condition is about to be met.

    291. sassenach says:

      Abulhaq

      Let me think about this for a minute…..

      Should I follow your dubious path, that of an unknown poster, that you have been offering ad nauseum, or do I accept that our FM knows exactly what she’s doing ( and has been doing , for years!!)??

      Yes it’s a big decision!!!!
      Sorry pal, but I’m with Nicola.

    292. Boudicca says:

      Excellent interview with Nicola on the Guardian today, sorry don’t know how to link it. There isn’t a paywall so you will be able to read it. Very fair.

    293. Robert Peffers says:

      @SilverDarling says: 5 August, 2019 at 8:15 pm:

      … @HYUFD
      We are not Quebec.
      Our circumstances are quite different …

      The point is, Silverdarlings, that the methodology being adopted by HYUFD and other unionists is the same methodology we can find in everything from the GERS reports to the claims that the Scots are subsidised by non-existent, “English Taxpayer’s money”, where the money is really United Kingdom Taxpayer’s money and the average Scots taxpayer actually contributes more to that United Kingdom than does the average Englander.

      The tactic is illustrated by the addition of oranges to apples and pears and quoting the answer as either apples, pears or oranges. The real total is, of course, neither apples, pears or oranges but is Fruit Salad.

      Canada is not comparable to either the UK or Catalonia and neither are any of the three comparable to any other but that is what they have fooled the Scots with since ever there has been a United Kingdom.

      The most used is to compare the financial City of London per capita GDP with the entire country of Scotland and claim this proves that the entire country of England subsidises the entire country of Scotland.

      This is, of course, a false comparison. The City of London financial centre packs people into one square mile of high rise offices while the country of Scotland contains vast areas of virtually empty countryside and vast areas of open seas.

    294. stu mac says:

      @Dr Jim says:
      5 August, 2019 at 6:06 pm

      Y’see there’s what you’re up against in Scotland apparently it was all the fault of Kilmarnock Football club that their ground was invaded, their turnstyles smashed and their disabled viewing access was crushed and damaged by Rangers supporters *exuberance* Are there really some folk not getting this yet?

      Nothing will be done because the Football authorities are too unimaginative (and incompetent) to conceive of any way to bring money in to the game except by pushing the “Old Firm” hate-fest. A slap on the wrist will suffice. One has to say that politicians of all colours are too afraid to do much about this either.

      If there weren’t already more than enough good reasons for independence, kicking the legs from under their unionist bigotry and arrogance would be enough in itself.

    295. galamcennalath says:

      Boudicca says:

      Excellent interview with Nicola on the Guardian today, sorry don’t know how to link it. There isn’t a paywall so you will be able to read it. Very fair.

      http://archive.is/btqPH

    296. hackalumpoff says:

      Updated (0950) Nana’s links here:
      https://indyref2.space/category/nanas-links/

    297. jfngw says:

      @Capella 11:11pm

      Yesterday I posted a comment (4:02pm) how I thought the BBC would spin the story. Turns out it was closer to my tongue in cheek comment than I thought. Lessen to me, never make jokes about BBC stories, they often turn out to just be predictions.

    298. galamcennalath says:

      Nicola in Guardian …

      So what happens when the Westminster government says she can’t have one? “Well, look, if we get to that bridge, I will set out how I intend to cross it … We’ve got legislation going through the Scottish parliament that is necessary for a referendum on that timescale. When we get to the endpoint of that legislation, we’ll then have that discussion with the UK government about the transfer of power.”

      Will it be a discussion? Or a historic clash? “Let’s wait and see, OK? And then I’ll set out how we intend to deal with that.

      Of course she has a plan for that highly likely scenario! And of course she’s not going to discuss it now.

    299. Robert Peffers says:

      @Iain 2 says: 5 August, 2019 at 9:00 pm:

      ” … Its a shock that the bbc is a liar, who knew.
      Who would have thought the propaganda would be a liar.
      And some of us pay for it.”

      Actually, Iain, you are wrong and that proves the most successful lie the BBC propaganda has always propagated.

      It isn’t only the Licence payers who pay for the BBC propaganda and here is the proof of that statement:-

      The TV licence is the Government’s permission to watch live video transmissions from any source and not just from the BBC, so the licence fee belongs to the Government. However, from the very beginning of, “Wireless Broadcasting”, the private company, (The BBC), were given the job of collecting the Broadcasting Licence and they did so via the then, “General Post Office”, but the money belonged to the government who gives permission, (a.k.a. licence), to receive broadcasts and the money is added to the Treasury General Taxation.

      It would be illegal for a private company to gather tax for the government and to keep it. Anyway, right from the start of wireless broadcasting, the money goes to the UK treasury and Westminster makes an agreed annual grant to the BBC. Thus, as that grant comes from general taxation, everyone who pays tax, and everyone pays indirect taxation, then we all pay for the BBC government grant.

      So there is the truth – from day one the BBC has been funded by a grant from general taxation and the BBC has always spread the lie that it is only the licence payer that pays for the BBC – “But they don’t want you to know that).

    300. Capella says:

      @ jfngw – so it’s your fault!? 🙂

    301. defo says:

      Has anyone questioned why Ashcroft did this now, and who the target audience really are?

    302. galamcennalath says:

      The Guardian · “Boris Johnson has no intention of renegotiating Brexit deal, EU told “

      BBC · “EU officials: No basis for further UK Brexit talks “

      The Telegraph – “Boris Johnson hires election guru amid speculation he is preparing for snap poll “

      Pieces all falling into place.

      Perhaps his head counters have told him he will lose a vote of no confidence making a general election inevitable, so he might as wall just call one.

      Or, perhaps the plan was always just to avoid negotiations and call a general election blaming the EU.

      Either way, as Nicola says, time to get our jackets on.

    303. RM says:

      Speaking to four seventeen year olds on Sunday who are turning eighteen within months none of them really politically minded but they would all vote for independence, polls change all the time and still proud to be Scottish with most young people I’m thinking.

    304. d.leighton says:

      Am I being picky but who are the 8%SNP who don’t want an independent Scotland?

    305. kapelmeister says:

      The Johnson government is right wing English nationalism with all the stops out. It demands total docility from Scots. That docility, if it was forthcoming, would entail the end of Holyrood as we have known it for twenty years.

      A parliament in Edinburgh which owes its existence to benign European intervention is a top target post-brexit for Johnson
      and his followers.

      Anyone Scot who votes unionist or votes No from now on is, by that simple act of putting a cross on a paper, supplying the London government with the docility they crave. The docility they need to proceed with their historic mission to erase Scottish identity and democracy.

    306. @Robert Peffers,

      Capita collect the broadcast/tv license tax on behalf of the BBC,

      they have been collecting the tax since 2002 and have a contract until 2022,

      Capita get nearly £60,000,000 a year from BBC for collecting tax,

      that means just for collecting the tax they will have made £1,200,000,000.

    307. call me dave says:

      Woosh! Daily Mail has gone full out on the Salmond story.

      My old unionist wifie at the next table in the cafe tutting! and tskkin! as she gave me a keek at the pages.

      “I dinnae like him or clicky-heels but I don’t believe it” says she.

      “Maybe a coincidence this morning” says I showing her the front page of ‘The National’

      “Hmmm!” says she.

    308. Robert Peffers says:

      @Chang Sha says: 5 August, 2019 at 9:15 pm:

      ” … He’s Professor of Finance at the School of Business, Trinity College Dublin & he’s posting under his real name”

      It matters not what he is for much of his assumed knowledge is
      erroneous yet, like many others who post here he attempts to propagate his knowledge as if he was an expert in a field he is not qualified in as an expert.

      I have personally had to correct his erroneous claims that Scotland must seek the permission of the Westminster government to become independent and furthermore do so within Westminster’s rules.

      There is absolutely no legal doubts that the United Kingdom is legally a bipartite union of kingdoms united by the 1706/7 Treaty of Union.

      There is absolutely no doubt that Westminster is NOT legally the Parliament of England and there have been no MPs elected to a Parliament of England, (either country or kingdom), since the 30 April 1707. No legally elected parliament of England exists and Westminster legally represents the only two kingdoms that signed the 1706/7 Treaty of Union. Westminster cannot thus represent only England in any court.

      That means Westminster is operating illegally as the de facto Parliament of England and is illegally treating The Kingdom of England’s only legal partner kingdom in the United Kingdom as if it were an integral part of the Kingdom of England.

      There is more, much more, but that is enough to demonstrate he should stick to his own field that he is qualified, (and knowledgeable in).

      The United Kingdom is exactly what its title describes it as and the Treaty of Union is the basis of the union. The Treaty of Union is composed of, “Articles of Union”, and each Article of Union is, a legal condition in its own right.

      So before going any further the United Kingdom is an International Treaty and, as such, Scotland has legal right to end the treaty if a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland want to end the union.

      What is more when Scotland does so the Westminster Parliament instantly legally ends for it is the union parliament and the union will have ended. There has been no legally elected Parliament of England since 30 April 1707. When Westminster ends so does the United Kingdom – there cannot be an rUnited Kingdom as the Status Quo Ante of a bipartite union is a return to the status that existed on 30 April 1707 except for the obvious fact that no parliament of England now exists and Westminster ended as the United Kingdom Parliament.

      However, under English law the Queen of England is legally sovereign but, since 1688, has had to legally delegate her sovereignty, (Divine right of Kings), to the Parliament of England which has not existed since 30 April 1707. I would assume Her Majesty would legally be in charge and, (even under United Kingdom custom and use), Her Majesty summons someone to her presence and commands that person to form Her Majesty’s Government of, (in this case her Kingdom of England).

      So there you go – the reality is that Scotland, with a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland’s wishes, needs no one’s permission to end the Union with The Kingdom of England and Westminster, not being the legally elected parliament of the Kingdom of England, has no say in the matter. Furthermore, as Her Majesty is not legally sovereign in Scotland, she has no say in the matter and could, quite reasonably considering her failure to do her legal job as, “Protector of the people’s sovereignty”, in Scotland could likely find herself sacked from her job and even replaced by another. More likely, though, Scots would declare Scotland a republic.

      Care to debate these points, Chang Sha? I’m sure you would get a fair number of replies from Wingers with strong views on the matter.

    309. Artyhetty says:

      Not so sure the Graun pretendy lefty rag ‘interview’, with Nicola Sturgeon is totally positive, at all! She gets to make some good points, of course, but the fact the person writing the article brings up the Alex Salmond court case, and then they say, ‘ inevitably the outcome of any Scottish referendum partly hinges on what happens doesn’t it’? WTAF?

      What an utter putdown if ever there was! Scotland, if your ex FM is found guilty, ( and er to the interviewers surprise? ‘he strongly denies the allegations’), then Scottish independence will go to the wall? Wait what? The article is written in a patronising format, quotes Nicola using words like ‘cos’, and ‘yeah’, not, because, or yes, because every single pretendy lefty journo quotes actual language as spoken and not as normal, ie written language! Not!

      Then, the fear factor, the interviewer, having basically said that the 2014 indy ref was ‘ aggressive and could explode(!) in an instant, online and in the real world’. Then, says this, ‘ another Scottish referendum, I suggest, could potentially be a horrible, rancorous mess’. So, online is what fantasy world? Does the interviewer have info on what could potentially happen re another Scottish referendum.? Rancorous, horrible’? ‘Mess’? Get lost pretendy lefty, nasty, division causing, Britnat rag!

      Then, ‘but do people even listen? It’s out of her control surely?’ Now there’s a statement of intent to put the idea that Scotland is insignificant, and so powerless with your pathetic little pretendy town council parliament. Best to stay in your box where you won’t be listened to anyway, lol!

      Nope, it’s patronising, using a strange format, like a ‘hello’ magazine interviewing a one hit wonder pop star, and drops in hints of fear mongering, insists on mentioning and using serious accusations against Alex Salmond to batter Scotland with, and in that context treating Nicola Sturgeon with contempt imo.

      Never trust the Gruan, it panders to those who think, believe, that they are superior, and socialist. It’s a right wing rag. Do not buy it. Thanks for archiving the article btw.

    310. Robert Peffers says:

      @Colin Alexander says: 5 August, 2019 at 9:36 pm:

      ” … We can’t assume EU nationals will vote YES.
      Many may leave”
      .

      We don’t need to, Colin. As they were not polled the lead for independence shown in the poll means the indy lead stands without them. So, as Westminster will likely still refuse a section 30 then the SG can just not allow them a vote and still have a poll lead. The point being that if Westminster still refuses a section 30 then the SG runs the vote as they see fit. If Westminster agrees to a section 30 then they will have to negotiate the conditions but if they play hardball we tell them where to stick the section 30 order.

    311. Capella says:

      OT – Fair Cop have permission to launch a judicial review in the High Court of police guidance over “hate crime” – in England. I’m not sure how much has seeped into Police Scotland practice, yet.

      In England you can be recorded as a purveyor of “hate crime” for expressing gender critical views. The police of Humberside are policing your thoughts.

      https://www.faircop.org.uk/post/high-court-grants-judicial-review-into-trans-hate-crimes-guidance

    312. galamcennalath says:

      @kapelmeister at 10:41

      Spot on.

      The Conservatives now don’t recognise a Union, or even a UK – they just see a Greater England.

      It’s the type of Nationalists they are. They covet the lands around them with a sense of imperial entitlement.

      The Conservative Party never had much standing in Scotland. 19thC Scotland was largely Liberal. Then it was actually their allies, the Scottish Unionists and National Liberals who stood in Scotland until 1964. Prior to 1964 they formed governments as a coalition of Unionist parties. After 1964 they became essentially an English Nationalist party.

    313. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I have just seen a below the line comment in The Guardian, which refers to the Prime Minister as: “De Piffel, what a brilliant name.

      Can I suggest that all Wingers use that title in future.

    314. galamcennalath says:

      “The BBC doesn’t report on individual polls? Here’s 27 times they have “

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17818535.bbc-doesnt-report-single-polls-headlines-27-times/

    315. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links Nana. Great stuff.

      Ryan Henson a nasty, ignorant wee man.

      http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2019/08/05/a-majority-in-scotland-want-independence-and-all-that-surprises-me-is-how-small-the-majority-is/

      ……………………

      MPs can still thwart Boris Johnson over no deal. Here’s how

      http://archive.fo/IG4KH

      ……………………

      ”Arrogance with ignorance.”

      Dominic Grieve:- A no-deal Brexit can be stopped. Cummings, Johnson and Hancock feel the burn!

      https://twitter.com/snb19692/status/1158494448097079300

      ……………………………

      @Abulhaq says at 8:47 am … ”Petra – Murray is a species of devil’s advocate. He does not present the rosy tint view.”..

      Is that right enough Abulhaq? I’ll stick with Nicola Sturgeon, and the ”rosy tint view”, rather than a yellow jaundiced tint if you don’t mind. As I’ve said before if we’d listened to, and taken Mr Murray’s advice, we’d have lost Indyref2 by now.

    316. jfngw says:

      @Artyhetty

      It is condescending in the highest degree, would they ever suggest that the outcome for the UK was dependent on what happened to ex leaders. Can’t remember them saying the outcome of the EU referendum pivoted on when the PM had put his todger in a pig, that we can’t leave the EU because the current PM was in a club that liked smashing up places.

    317. jfngw says:

      The Tories always going on about the will of the people, well it seems the majority of the people of England want Scotland out of ‘their parliament (sorry Wales & NI, they I suspect view you with the same light). Why won’t they follow the will of the people and let Scotland vote to get out of ‘their parliament’.

    318. kapelmeister says:

      Former U.S. Treasury Secretary Larry Summers publicly says that the UK has no leverage in any trade deals.

      An embarrassment for Dominic Raab on his tour of North America. Nevertheless, after speaking to officials in Washington, Ottowa and Mexico City who will give him reality checks, he will still return to London and tell his cabinet colleagues that the post-brexit picture is rosy.

    319. Dan says:

      SilverDarling says:5 August at 11:05 pm

      Those figures are a concern and may indicate many EU nationals are waiting to see what happens or, worse case scenario, already planning to leave.

      I’m going to ask around my various EU National contacts and see what their take is on the low applications for Settlement Status Scheme.
      Here’s a link to an older article I have saved from 2017 which does contain some thoughts and stats.

      https://www.scer.scot/database/ident-3215

      Westminster is boxed in on this either way. They can say they will let EU Nationals vote in a future Indyref, with potentially the majority of them now leaning towards Scottish Indy, or they can attempt to deny them, along with 16 & 17 year olds a say, which would be seen as them restricting the voter franchise from their previously agreed position to facilitate their preferred outcome.

      And of course, currently both those demographics can’t vote in a General Election either.

      The world can look on and clearly see the undemocratic nature of the playing field Scotland finds itself on, which spans from restricting individual voting rights, to our National Government (when we’re supposedly an equal member in a Union) being denied having significant influence in how the UK leaves the EU.

      #NoTaxationWithoutRepresentation

    320. Nana says:

      @Petra

      You are welcome, good to know they are being read and shared.

      Hoping everyone is well and good to see Mr Peffers back.

    321. Petra says:

      I’ve got some time on my hands today Nana, so just reposting some of your excellent links. Hope you don’t mind.

      ……………………

      Millions of people living below the breadline in the UK, but this lot are still fleecing the tax-payers.

      ”British taxpayers paid out hundreds of thousands of pounds in golden goodbyes during the chaotic Theresa May premiership — including to Boris Johnson and many of his new top team.

      Almost £850,000 was paid out to ministers who quit their jobs, were fired or who lost their seats at the 2017 snap general election, along with their numerous advisers.”..

      http://www.politico.eu/article/payout-bill-theresa-may-premiership/

      ……………………

      Another of our key resources that England wants, and NEEDS, to get it’s claws into. Well they’re no getting it!

      ..”The Drinking Water Quality Regulator (DWQR) for Scotland’s latest annual report shows that Scottish Water’s compliance with the stringent standards for drinking water is high at 99.90%.”

      http://www.gov.scot/news/water-quality-regulator-says-scotlands-tap-water-quality-remains-high/

      ……………………..

      Ha ha ha. Boris with his hauners. THIRTY THREE of them. What an embarrassment. Nicola with a sense of humour, human, and Big T like a dried up stick…..stookie.

      “I just remember he came up the steps, we did the handshake, we were meant to stand to get a picture taken together and then suddenly behind him came these hordes of people – I think he had about 33 people with him for whatever reason.

      “So I think I was just trying to organise everybody. And then the new Secretary of State for Scotland [Alister Jack] came up to me, and I don’t mean this as any insult to him, but I didn’t immediately recognise him so it was kind of, ‘who are you trying to get in my hoose?!

      http://archive.fo/8pClS

    322. kapelmeister says:

      The BBC are putting up the defence that they don’t report individual polls.

      Well that’s only true to the extent that they don’t report each and every opinion poll. But the first opinion poll on independence since Johnson attained office and the first in two years to show a lead for Yes is extremely newsworthy. Any first year journalism student would see that.

      It’s the insulting of our intelligence by the BBC which really rankles, even more than their disgusting news management and censorship.

    323. Petra says:

      I hope all is well with you Nana X And a big thank you for continuing to work your socks off in an attempt to ”educate and enlighten.” More so to convert others to the cause.

      …………………….

      ‘From 2017 Scottish independence and the law.’

      https://fullfact.org/law/can-scotland-legally-hold-another-referendum/

      …………………..

      Angus Robertson:- ‘Why majority for Scottish independence may be even bigger than new poll suggests.’

      ……”Meanwhile, there are a number of things that the poll doesn’t tell us. It didn’t ask the views of 16-17-year-old voters or specifically those of EU citizens, both of which groups were eligible to vote in the last independence referendum. My hunch is that there is an overwhelming majority for ‘Yes’ amongst both. The poll also didn’t have any regional breakdown to see whether there have been identifiable trends in different parts of the country.”..

      http://archive.fo/KNHJ2

      ………………………………..

      Phantom Power:- ‘Highlights from seismic Lord Ashcroft Poll on Scotland.’

      https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1158401347320000514

    324. galamcennalath says:

      jfngw says:

      would they ever suggest that the outcome for the UK was dependent on what happened to ex leaders

      BritNats either believe or spin propaganda that Scottish constitutional evolution is somehow not real politics, democracy, and will of people stuff. They think/spin it’s a fringe cult influencing gullible people who have temporarily suspended their ‘Britishness’. Also, as a cult, it’s all about individuals not greater ideals. They believe/promote that pro-independence notions are fragile and will collapse sooner or later.

      On top of this, BritNats believe the exact opposite of their UK. It is timeless, robust, and beyond being influenced by the transgressions of individuals.

      Thing is, we believe/know they are wrong on both assessments.

    325. Robert Peffers says:

      @Capella says: 5 August, 2019 at 11:11 pm:

      ” … Also, we don’t want any more divisive democracy, says a Tory spokesman.”

      I have one of those Tory people who harps about, “Divisive Democracy”, that I exchange, (cough!), pleasantries with on a fairly regular basis. He came out with it a few days ago and he was rather taken aback when I started to laugh at him.

      Next thing he got a wee bit irate and said it wasn’t a laughing matter and we could do without divisiveness. To which I asked him to define, “Democracy”, and got the usual, “government of the people by the people for the people”, and he got more laughter from me.

      By this time he was getting quite upset at me but I asked him, “just how do the people get selected to govern the people for the people”?”. He replied, “The people vote for them, of course”.

      At which I really burst out laughing for real instead of kidding him on and said, “So doesn’t that mean all democracy is based upon the people dividing into supporters of all the parties and voting to elect the people who will then be divided into the government and the opposition at Westminster and then troop through the Division Lobby to see who wins the divisive debates in Westminster between the government and the opposition”?

      I haven’t seen him since but I’m sure he will be back soon.

    326. Petra says:

      Mark Biagi’s take on it.

      ‘Re the Ashcroft poll.’

      https://twitter.com/MarcoGBiagi/status/1158278412328493057

      ……………………….

      James Kelly’s take on it.

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2019/08/has-ashcroft-poll-turned-our-precious.html

      ……………………

      ‘Kirsty Hughes: Brexit, lies and the Johnson charade.’

      …”But as the threat of No Deal causes increasing damage – and if No Deal actually happens – and as UK politics fractures and decays, the protests greeting Johnson in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland may soon come to look polite indeed. Measured analysis of border issues in the face of an out-of-control, dishonest and shambolic UK Government may be trumped by outrage and large poll shifts.”..

      http://archive.fo/hzmtS

    327. Petra says:

      The full list of Nana’s links can be found at 9.50 am.

      ……………………………

      ”To remind people how complex a process taking (and maintaining) control of the House of Commons order paper is. Key point: a majority of MPs supporting the plan is necessary but not sufficient. You need a “hook” too.”

      https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/parliament-and-elections/parliament/taking-control-of-the-order-paper/

      ………………………..

      ‘Thread on viewing British politics from a Brit on hols in Germany. I am here on holiday in Germany watching British politics from a far. And I am scared. And so should you be….’

      https://twitter.com/antoni_UK/status/1158083374034104320

      ……………………….

      …”State organisations like Brigade 77, the British Army social media unit, along with the Integrity Initiative (described as a British version of Russian Media tactics team), the Institute of Statecraft (described as ‘chilling manipulator of the public), Behavioural Insights Team (described as ‘social nudge unit‘) and MindSpace (re-arranging psychopolitical behaviourism) are now all in the hands of people like Dominic Cummings. Can you imagine that?”..

      https://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/the-latest-brexit-propaganda-campaign/

    328. Petra says:

      A wee list of the 2014 ”opposers.’

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_endorsements_in_the_2014_Scottish_independence_referendum

      ……………………………….

      Are we going to get a repeat of this from 2014? I don’t think so.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29136699

      OR this?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiMXuEmqAHA

    329. Petra says:

      I just love that last video (12:43). Seemingly Alex Salmond rolled about laughing when he saw it. Note James Kelly, one of our Imperial Masters, doddering about, lol.

    330. Golfnut says:

      @ Petra.

    331. Dr Jim says:

      Sky news says there are no Basking sharks around the UK now as they’re all in Scotland

      Nice of Sky to declare us Independent again, while in the same breath confer upon themselves all the titles of UK Great Britain England our precious Union blah blah blah

      Any fish in Wales? Has Wales gone? Not a peep about Wales for ages since a bunch of folk there decided they might like Independence too

    332. Golfnut says:

      @ Petra.

      ‘ Full fact.org ‘

      An awful lot of Anglo centric opinion in that piece I’m afraid, it doesn’t recognise or even mention the separate legal or constitutional systems that will come into play once the people vote. It’s questionable whether the UK Parliament, created by the Treaty of Union would actually have the legal force to end the Treaty unlike the reconvened Scots Parliament.

    333. Legerwood says:

      Petra @ 11.55 am

      Here are some links hospital costs.

      NHS Lothian procurement – Edinburgh Children’s hospital https://org.nhslothian.scot/CapitalDevelopments/currentprojects/proudhistoriesnewchapters/FundingAndProcurement/Pages/default.aspx

      Edinburgh Royal Infirmary costs and a few other PFI projects to from article in Daily Record.

      Archived article from Daily Record
      http://archive.is/JgCJ6

    334. manandboy says:

      O/T But has Scotland lost its 40 shades of rain?

      I remember not long ago, we had drizzle, spittin’, a drap, a smirrrh, and a dribble. Now it mostly just pours – aw the time!

    335. galamcennalath says:

      manandboy says:

      Now it mostly just pours – aw the time!

      Scottish rain can, at times, fall horizontally. At least all this recent stuff has fallen vertically! 🙂

    336. silverbuick says:

      When it’s ‘stoatin’ it comes doon and goes back up.

    337. Legerwood says:

      Dr Jim says:
      6 August, 2019 at 1:16 pm
      Sky news says there are no Basking sharks around the UK now as they’re all in Scotland

      Nice of Sky to declare us Independent again,…””
      …………..

      Strange.

      Last night CH4 news did a piece on how increasing trade with China, specifically in food, was affecting food production and the environment eg pigs in NI and problems dealing with the slurry. Several times they referred to England, Wales and NI. No mention of Scotland.

      I wonder if they think we have already gone?

    338. Stephen McKenzie says:

      kapelmeister @ 12:06

      Agree the feeble BBC “excuses” wrankles with me as well, however they are losing it. I have two nice “No” voting female friends one is a soft No, the other intends to “move to England” etc.

      Both in the last month are no longer paying the BBC. The more hard line one giving the BBC / Capita Business Services crew a mouthful of how untrustworthy they had become.

      On this forum we see them for what they are, it would seem others are starting to see it as well.

    339. manandboy says:

      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/02/scots-independence-england-scotland?CMP=share_btn_tw

      From 2014,George Monbiot gave very good advice to Scotland. Worth reading again.

      “Scots voting no to independence would be an astonishing act of self-harm”

    340. manandboy says:

      Whole article – Scotland’s worth it!

      “Scots voting no to independence would be an astonishing act of self-harm.

      England is dysfunctional, corrupt and vastly unequal. Who on earth would want to be tied to such a country?

      Imagine the question posed the other way round. An independent nation is asked to decide whether to surrender its sovereignty to a larger union. It would be allowed a measure of autonomy, but key aspects of its governance would be handed to another nation. It would be used as a military base by the dominant power and yoked to an economy over which it had no control.

      It would have to be bloody desperate. Only a nation in which the institutions of governance had collapsed, which had been ruined economically, which was threatened by invasion or civil war or famine might contemplate this drastic step. Most nations faced even with such catastrophes choose to retain their independence – in fact, will fight to preserve it – rather than surrender to a dominant foreign power.

      So what would you say about a country that sacrificed its sovereignty without collapse or compulsion; that had no obvious enemies, a basically sound economy and a broadly functional democracy, yet chose to swap it for remote governance by the hereditary elite of another nation, beholden to a corrupt financial centre?

      What would you say about a country that exchanged an economy based on enterprise and distribution for one based on speculation and rent? That chose obeisance to a government that spies on its own citizens, uses the planet as its dustbin, governs on behalf of a transnational elite that owes loyalty to no nation, cedes public services to corporations, forces terminally ill people to work and can’t be trusted with a box of fireworks, let alone a fleet of nuclear submarines? You would conclude that it had lost its senses.

      So what’s the difference? How is the argument altered by the fact that Scotland is considering whether to gain independence rather than whether to lose it? It’s not. Those who would vote no – now, a new poll suggests, a rapidly diminishing majority – could be suffering from system justification.

      System justification is defined as the “process by which existing social arrangements are legitimised, even at the expense of personal and group interest”. It consists of a desire to defend the status quo, regardless of its impacts. It has been demonstrated in a large body of experimental work, which has produced the following surprising results.

      System justification becomes stronger when social and economic inequality is more extreme. This is because people try to rationalise their disadvantage by seeking legitimate reasons for their position. In some cases disadvantaged people are more likely than the privileged to support the status quo. One study found that US citizens on low incomes were more likely than those on high incomes to believe that economic inequality is legitimate and necessary.

      It explains why women in experimental studies pay themselves less than men, why people in low-status jobs believe their work is worth less than those in high-status jobs, even when they’re performing the same task, and why people accept domination by another group. It might help to explain why so many people in Scotland are inclined to vote no.

      The fears the no campaigners have worked so hard to stoke are – by comparison with what the Scots are being asked to lose – mere shadows. As Adam Ramsay points out in his treatise Forty-Two Reasons to Support Scottish Independence, there are plenty of nations smaller than Scotland that possess their own currencies and thrive. Most of the world’s prosperous nations are small: there are no inherent disadvantages to downsizing.

      Remaining in the UK carries as much risk and uncertainty as leaving. England’s housing bubble could blow at any time. We might leave the European Union. Some of the most determined no campaigners would take us out: witness Ukip’s intention to stage a “pro-union rally” in Glasgow on 12 September. The union in question, of course, is the UK, not Europe. This reminds us of a crashing contradiction in the politics of such groups: if our membership of the EU represents an appalling and intolerable loss of sovereignty, why is the far greater loss Scotland is being asked to accept deemed tolerable and necessary.

      The Scots are told they will have no control over their own currency if they leave the UK. But they have none today. The monetary policy committee is based in London and bows to the banks. The pound’s strength, which damages the manufacturing Scotland seeks to promote, reflects the interests of the City.

      To vote no is to choose to live under a political system that sustains one of the rich world’s highest levels of inequality and deprivation. This is a system in which all major parties are complicit, which offers no obvious exit from a model that privileges neoliberal economics over other aspirations. It treats the natural world, civic life, equality, public health and effective public services as dispensable luxuries, and the freedom of the rich to exploit the poor as non-negotiable.

      Its lack of a codified constitution permits numberless abuses of power. It has failed to reform the House of Lords, royal prerogative, campaign finance and first-past-the-post voting (another triumph for the no brigade). It is dominated by media owned by tax exiles, who, instructing their editors from their distant chateaux, play the patriotism card at every opportunity. The concerns of swing voters in marginal constituencies outweigh those of the majority; the concerns of corporations with no lasting stake in the country outweigh everything. Broken, corrupt, dysfunctional, retentive: you want to be part of this?

      Independence, as more Scots are beginning to see, offers people an opportunity to rewrite the political rules. To create a written constitution, the very process of which is engaging and transformative. To build an economy of benefit to everyone. To promote cohesion, social justice, the defence of the living planet and an end to wars of choice.

      To deny this to yourself, to remain subject to the whims of a distant and uncaring elite, to succumb to the bleak, deferential negativity of the no campaign, to accept other people’s myths in place of your own story: that would be an astonishing act of self-repudiation and self-harm. Consider yourselves independent and work backwards from there; then ask why you would sacrifice that freedom.

    341. call me dave says:

      Those nasty EU countries won’t negotiate squeals Gove on big Auntie TV and 5 minutes later all the three main FTSE’s drop another 50 points. 🙁

      The attempt to stop Brexit no deal in the Scottish courts was made because…the English courts were on holiday…really? 🙂

      Basking sharks a precious resource in Scotland… add that to list

    342. Giving Goose says:

      Petra

      Re your comment about “Imperial Masters” – it may have been tongue in cheek but you actually hit the nail right on the head!

      That is exactly how James Kelly (not our James Kelly) see themselves. Part of the Imperial family, important, a cut above the rest.

      Unfortunately for them, the actual Imperial masters think they are a joke and just useful fodder to be used and cast aside when they are no longer deemed useful.

      Pitiful idiots that they are.

    343. galamcennalath says:

      manandboy says:

      “Scots voting no to independence would be an astonishing act of self-harm”

      A sad read because everything said five years ago is even more true today.

      Voting NO has indeed turned into an astonishing act of self-harm. We think the English are mad for voting for Brexit, well Scots can be just as stupid when it comes to self injury!

      OK, some of us manage to feel optimism by believing we will escape the madness in the next few years. However, it could have been already sorted and we could have been independent now for a few years!

    344. Liz g says:

      Ledgerwood @ 2.23
      I know what you mean…
      It’s very subtle and I can’t put my finger on it,but I’ve thought more than once recently that the English are being prepared for us leaving.
      Independence is no longer becoming normal just in Scotland!
      Yay. 🙂

    345. DerekM says:

      @ Manandboy

      I am not sure about that today so far we have had all of them here in Falkirk and in the last hour as well.

      I am not complaining its great for the fishing our rivers are flowing good and our lochs are filled to the brim i have not seen this in 15 years at this time of year.

      And i have had 16 very healthy Salmon on the fly and lost plenty more(all returned,scales taken and fish tagged)my best in over 20 years and its only August,the sea trout population in our rivers has also increased as they have fresh Scottish water to run our rivers to make baby sea trout as has the cunning wild Scottish brown trout.

      So i say send it down Jacob its nice to be a wet Scotsman again i missed it lol

      And no it is not cruel it is necessary so we can understand more about our wild Scottish Salmon population and help to conserve the species,well somebody has to do it 😉

    346. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      It’s funny how things have changed. A similar poll result back in 2014 was a sensation and caused all sorts of ructions in the BritNat camp, which led to the infamous “Vow” among other things. Now it’s just somehow to be expected, and maybe we want even more.

      Think about that for a moment. An independent Scotland has never been closer and almost everyone sees it as commonplace. How we have moved on!

    347. Chang Sha says:

      @Robert Peffers
      If you actually read my post you would realise I was simply pointing out that it was erroneous to to bracket Brian Lucey with HYUFD as Brian is quite obviously NOT a troll
      His actual points of view are his own affair & he is perfectly within his rights to express them on an open forum

    348. manandboy says:

      DerekM, thanks for that Derek, it’s heartwarming to hear the rivers are full and the fish are in healthy numbers. Enjoy the rest of the season!

    349. manandboy says:

      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/06/no-deal-brexit-boris-johnson-bluff-consequences-real#comments

      The English remain fixated on the UK as their ‘country’, and on Scotland’s Independence as ‘Nationalism’.

      “Even if Johnson cuts a deal at the last minute, voters in both Scotland and Northern Ireland are unlikely to forget how close they came to being dragged off a cliff by the English or how they were treated in the process; their concerns ignored, misrepresented and trampled in the rush. Once lit, a *nationalist fire* is not so easily put out. Brexiteers, of all people, should surely understand that.”

      It is time – as in ‘time for the Olympic 100 metre final, but not yet time for the starters gun to be fired’.

    350. manandboy says:

      When all is said and done, and with the 2012 – 2019 ‘Independence struggle’ still ‘live’, the unbending No Vote in Scotland points to something FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED in Scottish society.

      This flaw is absent in virtually every other nation on earth, which points to something which has been deliberately created.

      Now I wonder who might have done such a thing, why they did it, and by what means have they enforced it for so long.

      Answers on a postcard, please.

    351. Dr Jim says:

      @manandboy 4:36pm

      Same thing as they have in Northern Irish society

    352. Fergus Green says:

      Newspaper review appears to be missing from BBC Scotland home page today.

      Did we do something to upset them?

    353. galamcennalath says:

      manandboy says:

      This flaw is absent in virtually every other nation on earth,

      I would opine it’s a UK thing.

      Ireland 1918 wasn’t as pro independence as some would like to now believe. Including the six counties it wasn’t much above 50%. Also, in 1922 with the Free State they didn’t actually achieve full independence, that came later.

      I read somewhere, but can’t find it now, that British North America was about 2:1 in 1776 for independence.

      Contrast that with Norway in 1905 when 368,208 voted in favour of independence and 184 against.

      UK indoctrination and control has been effective.

    354. manandboy says:

      IT’S TIME TO START ‘FULL-ON’ INDEPENDENCE

      https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/why-majority-for-scottish-independence-may-be-even-bigger-than-new-poll-suggests-angus-robertson-1-4976972/amp?__twitter_impression=true

      “A majority of voters now support Scottish independence and an early independence referendum. These are the sensational findings from a poll commissioned from the Tory supporting Lord Ashcroft and covered in detail by Holyrood Magazine and Conservative Home website.

      What was widely predicted to happen if Boris Johnson became Prime Minister and pursued his hard Brexit agenda has come to pass. Scotland clearly doesn’t like BoJo or the prospects of Brexit. Finally for independence supporters, there is a sense that the tectonic plates are shifting, while amongst opponents there is private acknowledgement that opinions are changing.

      According to the Ashcroft poll, there is a 52-48 per cent lead for independence and a 47-45 per cent lead for an independence referendum within the next two years. This is the first poll lead for independence since March 2017, and the largest lead since a number of polls conducted shortly after the UK voted to leave the EU in June 2016.

      As striking as the lead for ‘Yes’ is the wide expectation that a new referendum will lead to Scottish independence. Respondents believe by 52 per cent to only 30 per cent that the most likely outcome will be that Scotland will vote to become independent.

      More than six in ten respondents, including nearly 40 per cent of Tory voters and two-thirds of Labour voters say they believe that Brexit makes it more likely that Scotland will become independent in the foreseeable future. While 52 per cent of respondents believe that Brexit strengthens the case for Scottish independence, only a paltry nine per cent believe it strengthens the case for Scotland remaining part of the UK.

      Just as one swallow does not a summer make, one poll is just a snapshot. However, it does reflect a wider trend in polling and voter research in Scotland. This is the exact area that my research organisation ‘Progress Scotland’ has been focussing on for recent months. The poll for Lord Ashcroft bears out many of our findings.

      Independent polling adviser Mark Diffley has said that we shouldn’t be surprised by the shift towards independence given the gradual uptick in support and political context. He highlights the importance of Labour voters, given that more than a third say they would vote ‘Yes’ as well as the fact that 18 per cent of 2014 ‘No’ voters now back ‘Yes’ versus 11 per cent who have moved in the opposite direction. Until recently that movement was quite balanced. Now a gap is opening up.

      Meanwhile, there are a number of things that the poll doesn’t tell us. It didn’t ask the views of 16-17-year-old voters or specifically those of EU citizens, both of which groups were eligible to vote in the last independence referendum. My hunch is that there is an overwhelming majority for ‘Yes’ amongst both. The poll also didn’t have any regional breakdown to see whether there have been identifiable trends in different parts of the country.

      Supporters of Scottish independence will feel hugely encouraged by the lead for ‘Yes’ and the prospects for another independence referendum. They will also be encouraged by the potential to grow their lead. The direct choice between an independent Scotland in Europe versus Boris’s damaging and inward-looking Brexit Britain is pretty clear. I am confident that people in Scotland will have their say on the future. I am confident that they will choose a positive future as a confident, successful independent nation in Europe.”

    355. Sinky says:

      BBC now going all guns blazing on Sick kids contract costs. Remember Snp futures trusts work out at half of Labour / Tory Pfi and curbs private company. Profits over length of contract. Contrast with Edinburgh Royal Infirmary costs

    356. Ken500 says:

      There was a mass home rule movement in Ireland. Led by Protestants. Charles Stuart Parnell. The Catholics had no rights. Banned from carrying swords, owning a horse or public office. Same in Scotland.

      There was going to be an Irish Home Rule Bill passed at Westminster two weeks after the 1WW was declared. It could have changed history. Instead Ireland got illegal Partition. The minority. Trouble ever since.

    357. Lenny Hartley says:

      Call me Dave, yup Basking Sharks are a precious resourse, their also tasty, local pub in Corrie used to sell Basking Shark Steaks and chips thirty odd years ago when a certain mr Mccrindle was allowed to hunt one or two a year. When I was a boy we used to have scores off Arran during the summer, now its just a few, maybe half a dozen at any one time at most. They seem to use the same territory every year, in 2003 i took photos of a baby one off the North of Arran and sent the photo to the Marine Biology lab in The Wee Cumbrie, several years later I took a photo of an adult and sent it to the Lab, thry told me it was the same fish I had photographed several years earlier (they can tell by markings on dorsal fin) back in the eighties I watched a documentary called the Sun Fish about them and it showed them being hunted in achill Island of the Mayo Coast of Ireland, they were taking hundreds per year.
      Thankfully that is now a thing of the past.

    358. CameronB Brodie says:

      Capella @ 11:12am
      The police of Humberside might want to inform themselves that sex is not the same as gender. Or do they think they know better than the World Health Organisation?

      Gender and Genetics
      https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/

      <

    359. manandboy says:

      Now that Ashcroft has produced a poll showing Indy in the lead, this should trigger a counter move from the Unionist Ruling Class. Just watch Donald Mackinnon jump.

    360. CameronB Brodie says:

      @The police of Humberside
      Human rights relate to the embodied experience of the sexed individuals. Not imaginary embodiment (see self-ID). Biology has real effect in the real world. Subsequently, your practice re. gender and hate crime, is not compatible with liberal democracy.

    361. manandboy says:

      Saw a basking shark just offshore at Banff last year. Unlike the dolphins, they are not nearly so easy to spot. Still amazing.

    362. manandboy says:

      Donald Mackinnon won’t be jumping at all, but Donalda Mackinnon will be.

    363. Thepnr says:

      The good news is that the shadow chancellor John McDonnell says Labour won’t stand in the way of a second referendum.

      The bad news is he believes it will be for the “English parliament” to decide. Shameful really that a person in such high office just hasn’t got a clue.

      “But Mr McDonnell said: “It will be for the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish people to decide that.”They will take a view about whether they want another referendum. Nicola Sturgeon said by late next year or the beginning of 2021.
      “The Scottish Parliament will come to a considered view on that and they will submit that to the Government and they will submit that to the Government and the English parliament itself.”

      http://archive.fo/lvK8B

    364. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Chang Sha @ 16:02,

      It’s always a pleasure to have a new poster, so “welcome”! And always interesting to get views from our friends over in Ireland.

      Unfortunately, as you have just discovered, sometimes you have to endure hair-trigger responses, some apparently pre-digested and of great length, from those who evidently haven’t taken the trouble to properly read what you write, let alone actually understand it.

      All in the interest of “debate”, of course.

      But welcome anyway!

    365. Cubby says:

      Chang sha @4.02pm

      In your opinion it was erroneous.

      You seemed to base that opinion on the fact that I had no idea who Brian Lucey is. Well I do and I did. He told me himself (in the sort of common condescending way some academics like to do ) quite some time ago. I held my opinion then and nothing he has posted since has changed my mind.

      If you think Professors cannot be trolls I refer you to batshit Jill the Edinburgh uni history professor. Anyone who thinks all academics deserve respect because they are academics and therefore are all upstanding citizens are either extremely naive or an academic.

      You are correct in one respect both yourself and Lucey are free to post what you want on this forum. So am I. So if I want to tell Lucey to take a hike I will.

      So just why do you say it is OBVIOUS he is not a troll.

    366. Tony Hay says:

      STV news going hard on exam results. Stand in anchor(no jokes please) Gordon Chree acting the james hunt with education minister John Swinney,who should have slapped him down. Chree constantly interrupted and talked over the minister who to his credit remained cool and calm and played with a good straight bat……still what can you expect from a biased MSM pawn.

    367. Republicofscotland says:

      Tony Hay.

      Yeah the panic on Chree’s face when the audio link failed was plain for all to see. The Britnat was desperate to attack Swinney, he was drooling like Pavlov’s dog onto his tablet at the thought of it.

    368. Capella says:

      @ CBB – Let’s see what the High Court says about Police practice as I’m guessing they will have been advised by Stonewall or similar trans lobby groups.

    369. Cubby says:

      Somebody should tell John McDonnell that there hasn’t been an English parliament since 1707. What a total plonker.

      Vote Labour – only morons or party members would vote for a plonker like McDonnell.

    370. Tam the Bam. says:

      Tony Hay @ 6-23pm

      I watched that interview Tony and I too would not have allowed John Mackay stand-in to talk over me…but I’m not the Secretary of State.Swinney answered his questions fairly and honestly and will..I suspect..be respected for doing so.

    371. ahundredthidiot says:

      SNP taking the smartest response to an attack……stay calm, be reasonable.

    372. call me dave says:

      @Tony Hay

      Aye it was pretty obvious it was attack mode but Swinney kept the heid.

      As I said to my partner have you ever seen a WM minister ever been on TV and asked questions about the bread and butter stuff?
      Me neither.

      Anyhoo!

      There will be a new pile of shit for them to gather roon and talk aboot tomorrow.

      Jings there’s such a thing as a’Tunnock Caramel Wafer Cup’ noo.

      🙂

    373. Tam the Bam. says:

      BBC Rancid now in full attack mode….Education and now NHS….utterly predictable.People starting to see through this now.

    374. galamcennalath says:

      ahundredthidiot says:

      SNP taking the smartest response to an attack……stay calm, be reasonable.

      Indeed. Clear, reasoned answers, even if interrupted and talked over.

      Most people listening will be more influenced by style and body language.

      If the interviewer comes over as ill mannered, ignorant, impatient, frantic, animated, loud, etc then folks are going to realise there’s a reason, an agenda.

    375. Effijy says:

      Had to turn off TV news as UK media desperately try to make
      a 75% Higher pass rate as a bad thing.

      It is down 2% from the highest ever level but won’t each years
      Pass rate ratios change as some exams are easier/ more difficult
      Than the last.

      We all know if the rate had been 100% the UK Media would
      Be demanding the exams were made easy by a corrupt SNP government.

      Being rid of UK Media will be one of the many sweet thing Independence will bring.

    376. Republicofscotland says:

      The BBC failed to publish openly the Ashcroft poll, due to their guidelines, which says we don’t publish on individual polls.

      However, they have on 27 occasions.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17818535.bbc-doesnt-report-single-polls-headlines-27-times/

    377. Dr Jim says:

      BBC Scotland openly admits they attempted to undermine trust in the Scottish government by carrying out their own soil sample tests on Coatbridge Schools before the Scottish governments Independent experts had completed their analysis

      The BBC findings were analysed and no damaging report or definitive conclusions were arrived at by their experts

      Coatbridge council complained about the BBCs intervention on the basis that they believed the BBC were attempting to undermine the final results of testing but the BBC stated that basically they had the right to do so

      Apart from the fact that the BBC used so called licence payers money for this failed piece of subterfuge, I’m quite sure everyone can draw their own conclusions about the BBC in this matter

    378. Brian Lucey says:

      Hi https://wingsoverscotland.com/times-change/#comment-2477881
      Thanks for the comment. I have no idea who HYFUD is. But I aint he/she
      FWIW I did my PhD in Scotland and have argued, in print and on broadcast, that theres no economic bar to Scottish independence.
      Feel free to contact me : http://www.tcd.ie/business

    379. Brian Lucey says:

      @ Robert Peffers https://wingsoverscotland.com/times-change/comment-page-1/#comment-2477772

      Yes, I am aware of what NS has said. What if the WM parliament says “nope”? As they might.
      No S30, it will be extraordinarily difficult for a scottish EU bid to work as it would , at present, be similar to Catalonia. And Spain would rightly veto.

    380. DerekM says:

      John Walsh

      Don`t worry John when the fight starts just watch the cybernats take down those pesky little trolls,we are being polite and civil just now but can turn on the vileness as quick as a blink of the eye 😉

      And anyway all i see is little fish not even worth trying to catch lol

    381. tartanpigsy says:

      Hi folks,
      I know I’ve been a stranger to these parts but with the recent goings on and the rapid approach of what looks like a No deal Brexit on 31st October. I’ve just launched this.
      First time I’ve used a crowdfunder in 5 years.
      Please do your best to get this out there and please also give what you can.
      https://www.gofundme.com/f/the-return-of-10000-flags-for-yes&rcid=r01-156511461463-37ddafd5bcc54bf4&pc=ot_co_campmgmt_w

    382. sassenach says:

      Brian Lucey @ 7-06pm

      Aha, the Spanish veto spectre rises, once more??

      I thought that particular ghost had been well and truly laid!

    383. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brian Lucey
      Care to expound on your opinion that Scotland is constitutionally positioned in the same way as Catalonia? That is what you are implying?

    384. call me dave says:

      Jings!

      The games a bogey then. FGS! 🙂

      Independence first.(Two countries no longer in a political union)

      Then maybe folk in Scotland will get a chance to have another vote on EU. What’s Spain got to do with it ‘maybe nothing’.

    385. Dr Jim says:

      Catalonia is a region of Spain, Scotland is a country that joined together in a Union with England to create the United Kingdom

      Scotland is the United Kingdom as much as England is, it’s only over time England declared itself absolute rulers

      Paragraph 18 of the 27 november 2014 Smith Commission agreed by all Westminster parties says:

      *It is agreed nothing in this report prevents Scotland becoming an Independent country in the future should the people of Scotland so choose* = A paragraph recognising the people of Scotland’s sovereignty in matters pertaining to the constitution of Scotland

      Unless the UK government wish to go to court and argue the case for their own legislation to be overturned I don’t see a problem, but I also don’t believe it will be necessary and I strongly dispute any Spanish veto whatsoever, they’d have to be nuts to do that, plus they’ve clearly stated publicly that they wouldn’t

    386. Cubby says:

      Brian Lucey kindly making my point for me.

      Same old stuff Lucey has said before.

    387. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      HEADS UP!

      Mark Piggott (WOS username “Tartanpigsy”) was the guy who organised “10,000 flags for YES” back in 2014. He has a new crowdfunder on the go. Here are a couple of quotes from the page:-

      “Back in 2014 we brought in the first ever mass produced Yes Flags.
      It wasn’t easy, At the time it was the biggest single import we’d done and it was hit by snags , and delays, and initial doubts from donors.
      But eventually, with help along the way, we succeeded and provided #Indyref1 with a great shot in the arm at a crucial period.
      This time around we’re making another 6000 of the original Yes Saltires, and 3000 Yes Saltire Car Flags.
      The flags became the iconic image of 2014 and were no doubt a contributing factor in the surge towards Yes that had many of us thinking we’d done enough to secure victory on that never to be forgotten day.”

      and

      “Time is very short. Brexit happening on October 31st will mean potential chaos at UK ports so all goods are timed to arrive and clear customs before that date. With this in mind we have already sent a deposit to instigate production out of our own pockets. Please do what you can to help Yes be ready for the final leg of Scotlands long walk to freedom.
      Donate, Share, Tweet, tell those not on Social Media about this campaign, and remember, these flags work!

      The Perks – Donate £10 and you’ll receive a flag in the post
      Donate £100 and you’ll receive 10 flags in the post.”

      Here is the link to the crowdfunder:-

      https://www.gofundme.com/f/the-return-of-10000-flags-for-yes

      As Mark suggests, spread this link and story to all your Facebook, Twitter and so on contacts.

    388. chic mcgregor says:

      Spain cannot veto Scottish accession because accession is by qualified majority. Spain does not have enough votes to stop Scottish accession, no single EU member can, even Germany does not have enough votes to prevent Scottish accession on its own.

    389. geeo says:

      Robert Peffers@2.12pm 5th august.

      Re no need for S.30.

      Spot on as usual, then there is this:
      ……….

      “We will shortly introduce legislation to set the rules for any referendum that is now, or in future, within the competence of the Scottish Parliament.

      We will aim for this legislation to be on the statute book by the end of this year. Mike Russell will set out the details next month.

      We do not need a transfer of power – such as a section 30 order – to pass such a framework Bill, though we would need it to put beyond doubt or challenge our ability to apply the Bill to an independence referendum.

      Of course, as members are aware, the UK government’s current position is that it will not agree to transfer power.

      I believe that position will prove to be unsustainable.

      However, by making progress with primary legislation first, we won’t squander valuable time now in a stand off with a UK government that may soon be out of office.

      We will seek agreement to a transfer of power at an appropriate point during or shortly after the Bill’s passage, on the basis that it will be exercised when this Parliament – and no other – considers it right to offer people a choice.

      In 2014, the Scottish and UK governments and parliaments – to our collective credit – set the gold standard.

      Two governments with very different views on the outcome came together to agree a process that allowed the people to decide. That is what should happen in future too.

      It is how we will ensure unquestioned legitimacy, not just here at home, but crucially within the EU and the wider international community too.

      And it respects the principle enshrined in the Claim of Right – that the Scottish people are sovereign.

      Those who oppose independence are, of course, entitled to argue that case. But it must be for the people to decide”.
      ……….

      That was Nicola Sturgeon- see here: https://www.snp.org/it-is-time-to-look-to-scotlands-future-with-confidence-in-the-potential-of-our-country-and-all-those-who-live-here/

    390. Clootie says:

      galamcennelath @3:53

      USA Independence. I read a book many years ago that suggested it was 1/3 for Independence, 1/3 to stay “British” and 1/3 not committed. Obviously a number of events happened that gradually swung it

      The use of German mercenaries did not go down well. The British tried to hire Russians first but this was denied by Katherine the Great

      At the time they were a bit stretched with Ireland and killing other upstarts not accepting their masters.

    391. Calum McKay says:

      This unionist argument that England can hold Scotland pensioner in a union we don’t want to be in crows tiresome!

      I don’t believe rightly that the EU wouldn’t wish hold England in a union they do not have wish to be in.

      Time for sane heads and to come to the conclusion of letting the people(s) decide which union they wish to be in!

      I am confident the people of Scotland will choose wisely and that the people of England will make their choice too!

    392. Tartanpigsy says:

      @BrianDoonTheToon
      Cheers mate
      I posted on here around 7.00pm but its still pending due to my naughty step level of not posting on here for ages

    393. galamcennalath says:

      Clootie says:

      1/3 for Independence, 1/3 to stay “British” and 1/3 not committed

      Split into politically aware, having a vested interest in the status quo, and just trying to feed their families. Thus it was ever so!

      a bit stretched with Ireland and killing other upstarts not accepting their masters

      The British empire IMO was a classic criminal enterprise. Extortion, protection, people trafficking, enslavement, hired thugs, drug smuggling, drug dealing, money laundering and downright thievery. And, as always, it was/is the ruling class who benefit, not ordinary folk.

      I also have the theory that when the UK was forced to ‘go straight’ and settle down to honest commerce, it never really adjusted.

    394. defo says:

      No takers on why the poll?
      And why now?
      (demographic change over relatively short timespans only sees Yes heading in one direction)

      What struck me is that it’s now over 2/3 of Scots residents who would vote remain, if given another chance.
      Attitudes are hardening.No ‘let’s just get it over with’ here!

    395. Terry callachan says:

      I said..

      I would never ignore a poll
      but I don’t treat them as representative either because they do not provide proof of how they went about deciding who to ask and when to ask the questions they ask

      Then there is the use of percentages when in fact it would be more honest to just tell us the actual numbers and allow us to work out the percentages ourselves”

      The response I got from Stuart Campbell was

      (1) They DO tell you the actual numbers.

      (2) Why doesn’t anyone understand how polls work? You ask a group of people and then you weight their responses. So if 60% of the people who actually respond say they voted Tory in the last election, when only (for example) 45% of people in that election actually DID vote Tory, then to get representative numbers you weight down your Tory respondents by a quarter.

      You do that across a range of characteristics, and you end up with results that while arrived at by essentially a process of estimation and adjustment, have an uncanny habit of coming out remarkably close to what happens in reality.

      My reply to Stuart ,
      You say they they do tell you the numbers questioned in the poll but you only see those numbers if you actually go to the lord ashcroft website,
      most people do not read polls on the lord Ashcroft website
      They read or hear about them them on the tv news or the radio , in newspapers or on this website
      where the actual numbers of people questioned in the poll are usually not given
      To make sense of a poll you need to know how many people were questioned
      This particular poll questioned 1019 people

      It is relevant to know how many people they tried to contact in order to reach that 1019 figure
      It is relevant to know if they choose people to contact from a single database
      It is relevant to know why they decided to use a particular database if they do hold more than one database
      It is relevant to know if they segment their database if they choose from one single database and it’s relevant to know how they segment

      Polling isn’t the simple understanding you make it out to be Stuart
      The British Polling Council apparently employs journalists and academics to ensure the highest standards are maintained but guess who is president of their management committee
      Prof John curtice
      With people from BBC on a sub committee

      Your second response about why doesn’t anyone understand polls is a bit cheeky, people do understand polls but the people using them for example newspapers tv and radio are often dishonest in not saying how many people were polled

      Timing of a question is crucial too , this poll took place when a lot of people were off on holiday perhaps not at home 30th July – 2nd August

      Who they ask is also important and they don’t tell you that ,citing privacy as the reason ,privacy is a good reason but keeping it a secret means we have to have absolute trust in the pollsters and I do not have absolute trust in the pollsters

    396. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. the practice of being British. Folk could do worse than get down to their local library, if they have one.

      The Sociology of Empires, Colonies, and Postcolonialism

      Abstract

      Sociologists are adding specific disciplinary accents to the burgeoning literature in colonial, imperial, and postcolonial studies. They have been especially keen to add explanatory accounts to the historical literature on empires. Starting in the 1950s, sociologists pioneered the study of colonies as historical formations. Against traditional anthropological approaches, sociologists insisted on studying colonizer and colonized in their dynamic interactions, asking how both groups were being transformed.

      Like contemporary postcolonial scholars, sociologists began asking in the 1950s how metropoles were being remade by overseas colonialism and colonial immigration. Echoing discussions in the 1950s among sociologists working in the colonies, current discussions of postcolonial sociology question the applicability of Western social scientific concepts and theories to the global South and ask how sociology itself has been shaped by empire.

      Current sociological research on empires focuses on six sets of causal mechanisms: (1) capitalism; (2) geopolitics, war, and violence; (3) cultural representations and subjectivity; (4) resistance and collaboration by the colonized; (5) institutional dimensions of empires and colonies; and (6) conflict and compromise among colonizers at the heart of colonial states.

      Keywords
      imperialism, territorial and informal empires, settler colonies, internal colonialism, decolonization

      https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-soc-071913-043131

    397. geeo says:

      Leonard must be fuming at John McDonald today.

      Leonard 2018

      ://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-politics

      McDonald today

      https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/06/john-mcdonnell-labour-government-would-not-block-second-scottish/amp/

    398. manandboy says:

      Whaley Bridge Dam – thanks to the highly professional work force called in, the danger to residents is apparently over. Now the same residents will begin the nightmare of Government procrastination about the rebuilding of the dam.

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-49254742

      After PM Johnson’s highly technical ‘dodgy but stable’ assessment, we now have the Environment Agency telling us that rebuilding the dam could take “who knows” how long.

      “A spokesman for the Environment Agency said the dam would eventually be rebuilt, but told residents it would be “a long-term construction project”.

      “We are very much in the emergency phase now and we are currently repairing and carrying out construction work,” he said.

      “It could take 18 months, two years, three years, who knows?”

    399. Giving Goose says:

      That dam is a metaphor for the UK.

    400. mike cassidy says:

      Tony Hay

      You won’t be surprised to learn that Mr Chree got his ‘big break’ in journalism at Kingdom FM radio in Fife alongside Ruth Davidson.

    401. CameronB Brodie says:

      Post-colonial practice requires an understanding of reality that is informed by gender-critical, intersectional, feminist theory, as well as an understanding of colonialism and the processes of “internal colonisation”. Fact.

      Internal Colonialism, Postcolonial Criticism and Social Theory

      The Internal Colonialism Theory is important to explain, on the one hand, the horizons and the current interest of postcolonial, anticolonial and decolonial criticism, and, on the other hand, the place of politics in heterogeneous societies. It is particularly relevant in countries that have experienced the progress of Western imperialism (Howe, 2002).

      The first known use of the ’Internal Colonialism’ concept is by Leo Marquard (1957) with respect to South Africa. However, there are important studies on Internal Colonialism in Greece (Peckham, 2004), Tunisia (Sghaier, 2016) and other countries. In Latin America, the debate is directly related to the contributions of Pablo Gonzalez Casanova (1965a and 1965b) and Rodolfo Stavenhagen (1963 and 1969) in Mexico.

      In his classic book Democracy in Mexico (1965a), where for the first time Pablo Gonzalez Casanova refers to Internal Colonialism, he draws attention to the dangers of using European concepts and categories without adapting them to the realities of countries of colonial origin. He suggests that it is a challenge ’to attempt an analysis of the relations between the political system and the social structure, with categories from underdeveloped countries’ to overcome intellectual colonialism (1965 : 19).

      For him, the progress of imperialism critique through the idea of Internal Colonialism as an ’integral phenomenon” exchanging from the international to the internal category seems important (Gonzalez Casanova, 2002 : 86-87). He also affirms that the notion of Internal Colonialism ’is only born out of liberation movements in the former colonies’ (p.83) and the experience of independence provokes the emergence of new notions about independence and development. The Mexican sociologist goes on to underlines that Internal Colonialism refers to a ’structure of social relations and exploitation between heterogeneous cultural groups’ (p.99-100).

      This theory helps to clarify the social, political and intellectual imaginary from outside and from within colonial capitalism. The theoretical and practical experiences of coloniality necessarily extend the horizons of modern sociological theory. In the diverse historical contexts of colonial capitalism manifestation, the capital and labor tensions are reconfigured by other contradictions generated by raciality, nationality and subalternity influencing the collective political imaginary. The discussion about race and social class in postcolonial societies is offered to us, for example, by the Marxist approach of the Peruvian J.C. Mariátegui (1973), broadening the understanding of capitalist power from the capitalism and coloniality relationship….

      http://www.journaldumauss.net/?Internal-Colonialism-Postcolonial-Criticism-and-Social-Theory

    402. Lenny Hartley says:

      Bbc news to the dam “Our North of England Correspondent reports” North of England. Derbyshire !!! . If Derbyshire was in the North of England they would not have written “God save the King” in a panic when Charlie was in Derby. I just checked its 128.5 miles from Derby to London.
      Says it all about their London bias , i guess the old joke about North of the Watford gap there be dragons is not far from the truth.

    403. kapelmeister says:

      Shadow Chancellor McDonnell says he wouldn’t block a second indyref. That’s true. He’d just try and undermine it instead.

      In response Davidson says only the Scottish Tories stand up for the United Kingdom. That’s true aussi. They stand up for it by prostrating themselves to London.

      Meanwhile The Mighty Swin’s answer is the same answer she has for everything. Join the Lib Dems!…….and make me PM.

    404. shug says:

      Just reading that Labour will not oppose indyref2!!

      All we need now is for Westminster to start the process of transferring N Ireland back to Ireland and the Unionist argument for their sacred union will be toast.

      At what point will they arm the OO

    405. RM says:

      England were conquered by the Romans, Scotland wasn’t, England were conquered by the Normans in 1066, Scotland wasn’t, England was conquered by William of Orange in 1688, Scotland wasn’t, Scotland more or less conquered England in 1745 , Scotland is a free country we’ve never been conquered, we’ve been in a union between two separate countries which has always been one sided, when the union came about the real working people never had a say, more education now real working people have a say why would Scottish people want to stay in an unfair union between two totally different thinking people.

    406. Robert Peffers says:

      O/T:

      Wingers may like this YouTube clip:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvLjwQlgK0U

      Maybe a bit of seeing oorsels iz ithers see iz – but in a nice way.

    407. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      kapelmeister @ 22:20,

      Craig Dalzell had an interesting insight in today’s National that has been missed by everyone else, it seems, including the Ashcroft poll. He noticed from the online Panelbase poll data that the LibDem membership in favour of independence has soared from 11% to 34%, possibly even overtaking the rise in support for indy within NorthBritLab.

      He also reckons that a previous surge for indy back in 2016 post-EURef largely came from LibDem voters casting around for a route back into the EU.

      Well, these folks are surely rapidly running out of hope that the UK will save them now. But Nicola will be happy to oblige.

      Puir wee Jo Swansong, it seems her house is built on sand.

      Quicksand.

    408. tartanpigsy says:

      Run a couple of updates to the original text but attempting to post now using the old email attached to this account in bygone days
      https://www.gofundme.com/manage/the-return-of-10000-flags-for-yes

    409. DerekM says:

      Is that panic i can smell coming from UK Labour lol

      So they will not block indyref2 if they are elected to government hmmm a cheap stunt to try and win Scottish MP`s i think.

      Dear scumbag red tories cram it where the sun don`t shine we do not need your permission.

      Buckle up folks a GE will be coming soon and the red tories just blabbed it i reckon.

    410. Sinky says:

      Union jacket Ian Murray hyperventilating over John McDonnell’s remarks agreeing to a second indy ref.

      Another cracking front page in tomorrow’s National. The tide is turning and what panic is in the Unionists breesties

    411. Dr Jim says:

      I think this is the moment when the whole of Scotland can raise a collective glass to Labour MSP Johaan Lamont who pointed out that which we already knew that Labour in Scotland were a branch office and that the entire Labour party could not be trusted on anything

      Cheers Johaan Lamont, the Labour party star who single handedly did more to wreck Labour than all who’ve gone before, and with her very own big between the shoulder blades knife

    412. Confused says:

      is brian lucey the type of irishman who gets called a “west brit”?

      on an anonymous online forum it is best to observe the “laws of jante” and resist the urge to flash your credentials – maybe you’re taking a knife to a gunfight and you don’t realise; argument from authority never convinces anyway

      no one has much respect for the dismal science, nor even that it is a science and we have plenty financial geniuses of our own, one, a ronald macdonald, PROVED that leave could not win brexit using BIG DATA and machine learning (- the words of galbraith come to mind re: economic forecasting and astrology)

      overall, I think things are going -just fine- and this poll might be the turning point, after this, we put clear space into it

      measured journalism from the daily mail

      https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7329245/Labour-gets-bed-SNP-Labour-reveals-WONT-block-second-Scottish-independence-vote.html

      the sense of panic, tasty on the tongue and the comments as ever, dellcious – wish I had my old puppet account to dish some gratuitous abuse

      – the anglos are, ahem, total fucking retards and the whole world hates them – europe, china, russia, even america and israel treat them with contempt; indy Scotland will be in the EU and NATO with copious US business interests – I don’t think we need worry about dirty tricks, that’s a desperate trick.

      if there is a – complete absence – of polls in the next few weeks, you know we are securely over the line

    413. Dan says:

      @DerekM at 3:57 pm

      Are you fishing rivers on east or west of Scotland? Last week I was speaking to a couple of ghillies on my local beats and they were saying worst season ever for them, which is unfortunately just a continuing trend.
      I’ve diversified from game fish and embraced course fishing again. Found a pond that has provided me with some decent perch which didn’t taste too bad. But you only get to taste them if you bank them before a pike chomps ’em…
      Last week I had an epic battle when I managed to land an 8lb pike on my 4lb perch tackle!
      For conservation reasons I’ve learnt how to identify male and female pike (Self ID hasn’t yet caught on in the fish world!) and I now put large females back so they can breed as they have made it through the stage of being predated on.
      My spuds are ready now so it’ll be fish and chips soon.

      Scotland certainly has rich and diverse sources of wild food which I’ve been learning to forage on in case no deal hits hard.
      This warm wet weather has also been good for wild mushrooms. I’m not sure if I’ve got a suntan or I’m just turning yellow from eating reams of chanterelles.

    414. call me dave says:

      Ha!

      Ian Murray (branch party) spitting feathers on McDonnell’s (Lab Party) statement, says Radio 5 Midnight news. 🙂

      Not long now win or lose.

    415. CameronB Brodie says:

      OT re. the article by Patrick Dunleavy @PJDunleavy. It is good to see that British academia is catching up with views already expressed btl on WOS. I am also extremely grateful that someone who obviously knows a good bit more about this stuff than I do, is of a similar mind to myself. Not only does he articulate the inequality embedded in Britain’s constitutional practice (see Scotland’s democratic deficit and the full-English Brexit), he also highlights the illiberal and authoritarian nature of contemporary English nationalism. Which is nice. Validation of one’s interpretation of reality that is, not the neo-colonialism inherent in English/British nationalism. 😉

      Long read | It’s the English, stupid! Brexit is an expression of English nationalism
      https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/08/06/long-read-its-the-english-stupid/

    416. Robert Peffers says:

      @Brian Lucey says:6 August, 2019 at 7:06 pm:

      ” … Yes, I am aware of what NS has said. What if the WM parliament says “nope”? As they might.”

      Och! Brian, I’ve attempted to be reasonably polite to you so far but you make it rather a hard task. So let’s just get down to legal facts, shall we?

      “No S30, it will be extraordinarily difficult for a scottish EU bid to work as it would , at present, be similar to Catalonia. And Spain would rightly veto.”

      In the first place there is no comparison between the Spain/Catalonia and the Kingdom of Scotland/Kingdom of England situations.

      Catalonia is an integral part of the Spanish State and is legally subject to the Spanish written constitution. Thus Spanish law and the Spanish constitution legally apply to Catalonia.

      As already pointed out to you the United Kingdom is exactly what it says on the tin – a union of ONLY two kingdoms who are legally equally sovereign. However, and importantly, their two sovereignties are legally very different.

      Let’s deal with them in their historical sequence, shall we? In 1320 the Kingdom of Scotland sent to the then international authority, (The Holy Roman See), The Declaration of Arbroath and that declaration was accepted and became part of international law.

      It declared that the Kingdom of Scotland was an independent kingdom but further declared that, under Scots law, the people of Scotland had legal right to sack any Scots monarch the people decided was not doing the job they appointed the monarch to do.

      That means if a monarch can be sacked by the people that it is the people who are sovereign and not the monarchy. Thus the people are not subjects of the monarch – the monarch is a subject of the people. That is the monarch’s job is to be the defender of the people’s sovereignty. Modern Scots law still has that as a basic tenet of Scots law.

      To highlight that fact the people of Scotland have right to roam because, as sovereign, they own Scotland. THUS There is no English style law of trespass under Scots law. So, under modern Scots law, no private land owner, or person, can clamp or tow away a vehicle parked upon private land and demand money to release it back to the vehicle’s owner.

      This because, as sovereign, the people own Scotland. Furthermore the people of Scotland’s sovereignty has been acknowledged by the Westminster government who acknowledged it in a court of law. They have also acknowledged, “The Scottish Claim of Right”. a.k.a sovereignty of the people of Scotland.

      Now for English history. In 1688 the English parliamentarians rebelled against their legal monarch, (who was also the monarch of the still independent Kingdom of Scotland – there was no legal Union of the Crowns in 1603 excepting personally for the actual monarch. Thus when the parliamentarians of England rebelled and deposed their legal king it had no legal effect in Scotland as Scotland remained independent until 1707. Which is why their need for a Treaty of Union.

      So the rebel English parliamentarians skipped over every Roman Catholic in the line for monarch and invited the first Protestant in the Line – Mary of Orange – Who refused the crown of England because she would not allow her husband, Billy, to be her consort. The English rebels then offered the crow to the couple as joint monarchs and Mary accepted. However, Scotland was still an independent kingdom and so English parliamentary decisions did not affect Scots law. Anyway, the English parliament, fearing the couple’s ambitions, stipulated that to ascend the English throne they had to legally delegate their sovereignty, (Divine right of Kings), to the Parliament of England.

      So legally William and Mary were not monarchs of the still independent Kingdom of Scotland but the English parliament illegally proclaimed the Jacobites, (supporters of the Stewarts), rebels – but you cannot rebel against a monarchy not your own. Which was why the English forced the Treaty of Union upon Scotland. But here’s the thing – The Treaty of Union declares that as the two legal systems are fundamentally irreconcilable then the two legal systems must remain forever independent.

      So how do you make your claims when Westminster illegally assumes that the Westminster Parliament has sovereignty over Scotland when the truth is that William & Mary only delegated their English sovereignty to the parliament of England and the last legally elected Parliament of England is recorded in Hansard of having put itself into permanent recess on 30 April 1707 and no parliament of England has sat ever since?

      Scotland has a watertight case that proves the People of Scotland are legally sovereign and Westminster is not the parliament of England but has legally acknowledged, “The Scottish Claim of Right”, a.k.a. Sovereignty?

      So there you go, Brian, you keep making these daft claims that have absolutely no legal standing. You are either ignorant of the facts or you are just ignoring them.

      However, here is the rub as far as you and Westminster are concerned. The only thing preventing Scotland from just legally declaring the Union has ended is that to make is legally stick requires a majority of the people of Scotland to, “Claim their Right”, of self determination. Even without the Treaty of Union evidence modern international laws of Human Rights says any identifiable group of people has the human right of self determination.

      Just to emphasis all the above – Scotland was one of Europe’s recognised group of people long before there was an, “Angle Land”, after the Romans left Britain and it was the Romans who named the northern tribe The Scotti.

      Don’t even bother attempting to argue the above facts for every one of them is well proven and documented and I have better things to do with my life than argue a watertight case that is so well proven. In any case, now that there is a Scottish Majority for independence the case is won even by modern Human Rights Law that Westminster is signed up to.

    417. Liz g says:

      Robert Peffers @ 12.34
      I don’t know how you have the patience Robert,but I’m so glad that ye do.
      Stay well Sir xx……..

    418. North chiel says:

      Our FM would be wise not to rely on the word of “ London Labour “ ( the Britnat establishment 2nd eleven “ chosen” government when the Tories ( 1st eleven) require them for a spell.). Any attempt by the Britnat establishment 2nd eleven to entice the SNP into “ a pact” would have ulterior motives principally relating to the preservation of “ the precious precious union “ which is the real aim of the Westminster Britnat establishment including the Britnat London Labour Party, the Britnat London Libdem Party & of course the now English nationalist Tory Party ( The “senior service” of the Britnat establishment hierarchy .). The Establishment ( in view of very recent opinion polls) now seem to be carefully considering the Brexit/ “ precious precious union” conundrum /ramifications and how they intend to proceed ??

    419. Famous15 says:

      The British Government should fund Indyref 2 and call it the Union Line.

    420. with NO reference to the Whaley Bridge dam in particular…

      Once the cracks begin, it will be hard to hold back the force of the water behind – so it looks for independence. The force is building.

      If the Lib Dem support for Indy is at 34% then wee Willie Rennie and Jo Swinson are not representative of their members and may be out on a limb.

      Ruth could be floundering too although the former FM Mc Cleish is telling her to hang on in there – she’ll outlast Boris. Murdo senses his moment is finally nigh and wants to split from WM but how can the Conservative and Unionist party of all people justify a split from WM?

      They all look to be on very shoogly pegs to me and it is becoming obvious to a lot more people as well.

      Fasten your seat belts folks looks like a lot could happen before October 31st.

    421. geeo says:

      https://m.facebook.com/groups/237578533089567?view=permalink&id=1285573628290047

      Jenni Russell from The Times absolutely filleted Brexit right wing roaster, Brendan O’Neil from Spiked online over indyref2 and other things, on Sky Press preview slot tonight.

      Thangs are changing ah tell ye !!

    422. manandboy says:

      For centuries, the UK has been, and still is, a safe harbour for virulent anti-Catholicism, euphemistically referred to as ‘sectarianism’, as if it was a two way street. Harland & Wolff was a citadel of anti-Catholicism. But let’s keep that quiet, especially since we Scots are now all part of the new ‘all-inclusive but with one exception’ political culture

      https://sluggerotoole.com/2019/08/05/harland-and-wolff-to-go-into-administration-today/

      “It looks like the end of an era today as Harland and Wolff is due to go into administration. The company that once employed 35,000 people is now a mere shadow of its former self, employing just 130 currently.
      With so few jobs the economic loss is not that great, people with light engineering skills are in high demand and I imagine most workers should have no issue getting reemployed.
      It’s more what the shipyard represents in terms of our social and cultural history. As well as creating some of the most famous ships of the age, the yard was also the scene of some very nasty sectarian intimidation especially during the pogroms of the 1920s. In the 1970s hundreds of Catholics were also intimated out of their jobs in the yard.”

    423. Iain 2 says:

      Well done Robert.

    424. admiral says:

      Re McDonnell’s “promise” of another indyref – I’ve only got two words – THE VOW.

      This is a blatant attempt to shore up what’s left of the crumbling edifice of the Labour vote in Scotland, nothing more, nothing less.

    425. Gary says:

      “Some Things Stay The Same” and yet they haven’t. As according to BBC Breakfast this morning John McDonnell has said Labour will NOT oppose a second referendum, stating that is “up to the Scottish Parliament” to decide upon that.

      Meanwhile BBC are still quoting Leonard’s position as being in favour of BLOCKING a vote. But then this really DOES show he IS just the Branch Manager…

    426. DerekM says:

      Dan

      I fish that big scary beast The Forth ,i also Fish the Teith and The Carron but mainly for sea trout and if i get the chance i head North and fish the Naver and Borgie also.

      Years ago we started a fish stripping program on The Teith tributary The Eas Ghobain it was working great until those bloody tories got voted in Stirling they stopped the funding for the program.

      And yes a lot of our rivers are in trouble even the famous ones,however over the last 5 years we have seen a massive drop in the anglers fishing our rivers due to lack of water and fish being caught or permits that are fully catch and return or fly only this has had the effect of driving away the trophy hunters who kill the fish using spinners and worms or worse the putty brigade(Salmon roe),we also got the netting of the estuary stopped.

      This year has been special because there is water and the fish are there and some days me and my friend are the only anglers on the rivers,a far cry from 10 years ago when you would have to wait your turn to fish down through a pool,though i would never suggest that an inexperienced angler should try The Forth you fall in that beast in high water and you are dead and unless you know where it is safe to get in the water you could find yourself stepping into mud that will suck you under,had a few close shaves on it myself and i know it very well.

    427. Famous15 says:

      Hey! ian Murray! Yes you! you with the Union Jack jaiket..

      I am an SNP member and less of a nationalist than you and am certainly more internationalist.

      The SNP I belong to never voted for,had in its manifesto nor ever agreed at conference to “once in a generation” so do not con people by conflating rhetoric about once in a generation OPPORTUNITY.

      What is a “political generation”anyhoo? .The Parliament Act appears to suggest FIVE years.

    428. hackalumpoff says:

      See Nana’slinks here:
      https://indyref2.space/category/nanas-links/

    429. Roland Smith says:

      The bottom line is actually negotiating and rejoining the EU is going to take a small amount of time.
      If I was Yes2 and citizens assembly I would argue for an instant first step of joining the EEA that gives access to SM and FoM, gives loads of benefits straight away and slightly more popular than EU. Then have a statement that says full membership needs to be negotiated by our first independent government and the terms when complete put to the people in a referendum. Pro independence, anti EU voters should be happy with that. Personally I would like us as with other EEA countries to join Schengen PDQ as well.

      We need to break the SNP will be the first independent government mindset.

    430. Famous15 says:

      Roland Smith

      Mindset!

    431. Abulhaq says:

      The core of the SNP’s independence bid is pitched around Brexit according to Ian Murray on the John McDonnell remarks.
      Sturgeon’s obsession has turned the SNP into a one issue party….Stop Brexit.
      No Brexit and the independence can is kicked out of sight?

    432. Effijy says:

      Gary says:
      7 August, 2019 at 7:33 am
      “Some Things Stay The Same” and yet they haven’t. As according to BBC Breakfast this morning John McDonnell has said Labour will NOT oppose a second referendum, stating that is “up to the Scottish Parliament” to decide upon that.

      Meanwhile BBC are still quoting Leonard’s position as being in favour of BLOCKING a vote. But then this really DOES show he IS just the Branch Manager…

      Now isn’t that Strange because Joanne Lamont assured us she had autonomy
      As a Scottish Labour leader only later to confess no, she had to take her orders
      From the real London Labour Party.
      Then Dim Jim Murphy assures is he had autonomy right up to London
      Labour shooting him down on that.
      Not to worry Dizzy Deputy Dug as new leader promised this time she had autonomy,
      Well actually no, she too was put in her lowly place by London Labour.

      Oh dear this time, unlike the other times, old Loony Leonard had the power,
      Right up until MacDonald of London Labour laid down the law.

      What a humiliating bunch the North of North Accounting Unit
      Just puppets without control or expressions dangling on a London based string!

    433. Capella says:

      John McDonnell’s reference to the “English Parliament” was aired on R4 this morning and Ian Murray spat feathers at the very idea of an electoral pact between the Labour Party and the SNP in Westminster. The interviewer sounded very fair and balanced by comparison. Poor old Ian. his union jack jaiket must be getting a bit threadbare these days.

    434. Petra says:

      As some folks mentioned earlier on here Scottish Independence is being normalised now, which is GREAT for us. Add to that the broadcasting this morning of two Englishmen, McDonnell and Leonard, disagreeing as to whether we Scots should be afforded the opportunity to be Independent or not. BBC beaming it into every home, lol. That’ll go down a treat in Scotland, don’t you think?

    435. jfngw says:

      Today’s tweet from Ruth Davidson

      ‘I feel for those Labour voters that stood side by side with major figures of their party and against the forces of nationalism in 2014. Know that the @ScotTories will always stand up for our United Kingdom.’

      This from a party that is now oozing British Nationalism with Ruth Davidson fully behind it and Boris Johnson’s hard Brexit. She condemns nationalism whilst promoting it, peak hypocrisy in a single tweet.

    436. jfngw says:

      Be careful with Labour’s words, it’s up to the Scottish people could be the type of spin so loved by Blair, say something that most people will interpret one way when in fact it is conveying something else. The will of the Scottish people could in fact mean exactly the same as the Tories, you can only have a referendum if more than 50% of the vote goes to the SNP.

    437. Golfnut says:

      @ Manandboy.

      Harland and Wolfe were also part of a consortium bidding for the Type 31 Frigates. That particular project seems to have gone very quiet.

    438. Petra says:

      Just trying to catch up on here this morning!! Apologies if I don’t respond to any comments that have been directed to me.

      ………………………

      From Nana’s links…

      ‘The Cost of the Union.’

      ..”We hear about Brexiteers saying the UKs membership is expensive, they have no idea how expensive an unfair union is.

      The UKs membership costs the UK £13,000,000,000, or roughly 1.6% of the entire UK revenue. Scotland’s membership costs Scotland £29,577,000,000, or roughly 49% of our entire revenue per year.

      Whats worse is that the UK has a veto…Scotland doesn’t even have a voice. Did you know that since 2001, Scotland has raised over £900,000,000,000 in tax receipts for the UK government but only received £447,000,000,000 back in the form of a block grant?

      Did you know that the UK Government has retained £460,000,000,000 over the same period to spend on our behalf. That means the UK has kept more of our own money than it has awarded us.”…

      https://macalbasite.wordpress.com/2019/06/03/the-cost-of-the-union/

      ……………………………

      ‘John McDonnell: Labour would not block an independence referendum.’

      http://archive.fo/lvK8B

      ………………………..

      Good stuff!

      ‘Neil Mackay: Tory anarchists are destroying Ruth Davidson, their own party and the union.’

      http://archive.fo/0vgNV

    439. call me dave says:

      Jings!

      The proposed new child care provision is obviously the sort of idea up with which oor auntie wie a kilt will not put!

      Hostile and bristling with negativity in this morning’s interview on shortbread….another day in Scotland folks.

    440. Smallaxe says:

      Hackalumpoff,

      Good morning, thank you for the link to Nana’s links.

      Kettle’s on!
      😉

    441. Petra says:

      Not for much longer, eh?

      ‘James McArdle claims Scottish actors endure “prejudice and ignorance” in the UK.’

      ..”McArdle, 30, who appeared on Broadway in the National Theatre’s production of Angels In America, suggested “suppression of Scottish culture, voices and stories” was to blame for the unfair treatment of Scottish actors.”..

      http://archive.fo/oYT31

      ………………….

      ‘Let fat people die to save the NHS money says BBC’s Michael Buerk.’

      http://archive.fo/lCpZu

      …………………….

      We’ll soon be able to add fat people to this list, if some Tory minded individuals get their way.

      ‘I’ve tweeted about this several times over the last couple of years, produced many data summaries It is one of the biggest ever political scandals; that Tory austerity has led to up to 350,000 extra deaths. Every journalist should be covering this, ask yourself why they aren’t.’

      https://twitter.com/Trickyjabs/status/1158673462237519872

      (All from Nana’s links)

    442. Petra says:

      Smallaxe!! Lovely to see you posting on here. How are you doing? Well I hope X

    443. Petra says:

      BBC’s ‘Call Kaye’ is looking for people to phone in and complain about Scottish education this morning. The BBC is clearly intent on undermining every area that’s devolved to the Scottish Government. Does anyone know if they have the equivalent of the wee hatchet wummin, Kaye Adams, south of the border?

    444. O/T. Rev, get on LBC.

    445. hackalumpoff says:

      Indyref phone in on James O’Brien this morning:

      https://www.globalplayer.com/live/lbc/uk

    446. Legerwood says:

      While Mr McDonnell’s statement that Labour will not oppose a second referendum is welcome it should be treated with extreme caution.

      His record of saying one thing one day and something opposite the next would be one reason for caution.

      He is also number two in the Labour party and No 1 has a habit of back-tracking on any apparently definitive policy statements made by his No 2.

      Nice if it sticks but Labour’s ability under Mr Corbyn to stick to any stated position for longer than a week is not great.

      Make what hay you can out of his comments now but don’t bank on them

    447. hackalumpoff says:

      Better link to LBC here:
      https://www.lbc.co.uk/

    448. galamcennalath says:

      One way to analyse the situation …..

      Davidson is a British Nationalist who believes in a UK. Johnson is and English Nationalist who also believes in a Greater England. These two positions don’t necessarily overlap and explain the fiction within Tory party. Many English Tories are BritNats, but most and actually English Nats. There has been a power shift from British to English Nationalism.

      Many English Nationalists seem quite content to focus on England, accepting that other nations might leave the UK. These folks don’t desire an Imperial Greater England.

      Brexit is essentially an English Nationalist project.

      Labour, on the other hand is probably mainly British Nationalist. As such, wants to see the UK continue. And they are totally confused over Brexit.

    449. Petra says:

      How is this going to work out for Boris, et al, if they stab the Irish in the back over the border issue?

      ‘Post-Brexit UK ‘desperate’ for Trump trade deal, former US treasury secretary says.’

      “Britain has no leverage. Britain is desperate. Britain has nothing else,” Summers told the BBC’s “Today” program this morning.

      http://www.politico.eu/article/post-brexit-uk-desperate-for-trump-trade-deal-former-us-treasury-secretary-says/

      ……………………………

      Boris’s choices.

      ‘Boris Johnson’s Duty to Resign.

      http://archive.fo/MPDwl

      ……………………..

      Time for Queenie, Queen of the Scots, aye right, to step in.

      ‘Dominic Grieve – If Boris Johnson didn’t move his fat arse, after losing a vote of confidence, the Queen would have to sack him.. the Queen isn’t a decorative extra.. she actually has a number of key reserve powers & one of them is appointing PMs..

      https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1158820141242683392

    450. Republicofscotland says:

      The ignorance of Nick Ferrari on LBC radio regarding the SNP this morning was astonishing.

      Ferrari claimed Sturgeon was doing a terrible job on governing Scotland. He turned to David Clegg of the Daily Record to enlighten listeners of just how poorly the SNP’s goverance has been.

      Then came the attacks on our FM from texts and tweets, which Ferrari agreed with.

    451. Liz g says:

      jfngw @ 9.36
      It’s looking very much like “Better Together” have decided they’re not after all!
      They seem to have to decided to separate and promote their Union as an independent autonomous self governing outfit!
      Irony overload doesn’t even begin to describe it…

    452. Liz g says:

      Revs on LBC

    453. Smallaxe says:

      Hi, Petra,

      Thanks’, for asking but I’m not in the best of health. The chemo that I was taking for terminal bone marrow cancer has stopped working.

      They’ll have to shoot me though if they think that I’m going to die in a Scotland that isn’t Independent.
      🙂

      I’ll pop in now and then, in the meantime, I send Peace and Love to you and All True Wingers.

    454. Liz g says:

      Till he said he was Wings then not

    455. Well done, Sir. Pity yie didnie get mair time.

    456. GrahamB says:

      Petra at 10:07
      Maybe Kaye is just trying to find out about current state education in Scotland as she probable knows hee-haw. It must be 30+ years since she was in education and she sends both her children to private school – High School of Glasgow!

    457. Liz g says:

      Smallaxe
      Absolutely…. Your not allowed .. by order xxxx

    458. hackalumpoff says:

      Re LBC
      Rev got cut off after he mentioned WINGS.
      The first caller, Clive, was excellent.

    459. galamcennalath says:

      1955, the last time Scotland voted Tory. Saw this on WoS twitter just now and have said it myself.

      Well, it’s only true-ish. Prior to 1964 Scots actually voted for the Scottish Unionist and National Liberal parties, who were allies of the Conservative and Unionist party of England and Wales.

      After the merger in 1964, the ‘new’ UK Conservatives never seemed to appeal to Scots.

      Strictly, Scotland has never voted Conservative.

    460. Petra says:

      Dearie me! I’m sure they’ll think of something to try and stop us in our tracks.

      ‘Scotland is moving towards independence — and unionists don’t know how to stop it.’

      …”When I speak to senior players from 2014’s Better Together campaign these days, I find the overwhelming feeling is one of resignation. They know Scotland might well choose to quit the UK, and they are not very sure what to do about it, or whether anything can be done. Deploying the Union flag more regularly north of the border seems unlikely to do the trick.”

      http://archive.fo/VlXbN

      ………………………….

      God help us all. England that is. Switzerland is still ”negotiating” with the EU nearly 50 years on.

      ‘Leaving on October 31st won’t be the end of this. Brexit will never be over.’

      ..”But here’s a simple, grim fact about Brexit that has been successfully obscured by Johnson’s repetitive focus on the Halloween deadline. Brexit will not be “done” by October 31, 2019. Or 2020. Or 2030. In truth, Brexit will never be “done”. Leaving is not the end. It’s the beginning.. ….

      ”For a glimpse of what awaits us outside, look to Switzerland, which signed its first trade deal with the EU in 1972. It has since agreed more than 100 other “bilateral agreements” — and is still negotiating with Brussels, with no end in sight. Being a neighbour and partner of the complex, evolving EU means permanently discussing your relationship with it.”…

      http://archive.fo/Es0I1

      …………………

      And they, the Unionists, have got the cheek to say that Indyref1 had a negative impact on the Scots!

      ‘Brexit hits the British on the psyche.’ Use translate function

      http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/brexit-blues-101.html

      (All from Nana’s links at 8:32am. There’s more. Check them all out.)

    461. Petra says:

      @ Smallaxe says at 10:30 am …. ”Hi, Petra, Thanks’, for asking but I’m not in the best of health. The chemo that I was taking for terminal bone marrow cancer has stopped working. They’ll have to shoot me though if they think that I’m going to die in a Scotland that isn’t Independent.? I’ll pop in now and then, in the meantime, I send Peace and Love to you and All True Wingers.”

      Och Smallaxe, I’m REALLY sorry to hear that. I’m (all of us on here, I’m sure) sending all my love to you and your wife and family members. Big hug (((X))). And don’t forget that there’s such a thing as a miracle. I’ve known of two people who survived (witnessed it) the ”impossible”, as per their doctors.

    462. Colin Alexander says:

      Robert Peffers

      Mary, was Mary Stewart, the daughter of King James VII. The sovereignty of the people of Scotland v non-sovereignty of the monarch IN SCOTLAND has not always been as clear cut as you suggest. Prior to the Covenanters winning the civil wars in Scotland, the Stewart monarchs of Scotland regarded themselves as Sovereign, Scottish Parliament legislation from the 1630s referring to him as “Sovereign”. ( The “Divine Right of Kings” was not only an English affliction). The civil wars between the Protestant Covenanters and Royalists re-established that the people of Scotland were sovereign, not the monarch. This was set out later in the Claim of Right 1689, when James VII was again attempting to undermine Protestantism by supporting Catholicism.

      You appear to argue for the Claim of Right and yet at the same time argue Stewarts were lawful monarchs and those who oppose them are the real rebels. That seems to be a contradiction to me. The Claim of Right says James was never crowned with the Scottish Crown, so did not really become King of Scots? So, either that’s correct or the Claim of Right is talking mince. Which is it?

      If you believe James VII Stewarts was the lawful monarch of Scotland, I suggest that undermines your argument that the people are sovereign citing the Claim of Right as evidence.

      The above does does not factor in the England / Scotland dimension of power politics and fear of English domination that led to the Covenanters ( and other Scots) to, at times oppose the Stewart monarchs, and at other times support them.

      What I take from history is that Scottish (Covenanter) Protestants feared domination by autocratic monarchs undermining their Protestant Presbyterian religious / political freedom. They also feared autocratic English Parliament domination. (The later political Unions proved them right).

      In current times that Scottish Protestants must support the political Union of Scotland and England is another one of the Unionist lies. Scottish Protestants, the Covenanters, opposed political Union with England. They opposed the English Anglican religion / Scottish Episcopalianism.

      Scotland was forcibly incorporated into the English Commonwealth, the first Union. The current Union’s UK Parliament betrayed the promises of religious freedom for Presbyterians and caused the Great Disruption of 1843 that ripped the Church of Scotland apart.

      So, there another lie is exposed: that the UK State is the great protector of Scottish Presbyterian religious freedom.

    463. ben madigan says:

      @Manandboy who mentioned the Harland and Wolff shipyard closure

      You may be interested in this post on the topic

      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2019/08/05/the-dup-paper-tiger/

    464. Petra says:

      @ GrahamB says at 10:31 am .. ”Petra – Maybe Kaye is just trying to find out about current state education in Scotland as she probable knows hee-haw. It must be 30+ years since she was in education and she sends both her children to private school – High School of Glasgow!”

      Taking it that Scottish children got their exam results yesterday probably has more to do with it Graham. That and the fact that ignorant as she is she toes the BBC line. She has to, to pay for her kid’s education by the looks of it, lol.

      This is the BBC’s take on it. Awaiting Professor John Robertson’s.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49236257

      ………………………….

      ‘Wee Ginger Dug: This summer we will win Scottish Independence.’

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/17817192.summer-will-win-scottish-independence/

      …………………………

      FGS, mair ile? I canny stand much more of this.

      ‘Massive TWO BILLION BARRELS untapped in Scottish North Sea but it might be ‘spaffed up a wall’ by the UK Treasury.’

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2019/08/07/massive-two-billion-barrels-untapped-in-scottish-north-sea-but-it-might-be-spaffed-up-a-wall-by-the-uk-treasury/

    465. DerekM says:

      RE The Rev`s twitter post about seagulls

      I find Rev that a hard stare does not work with the Scottish shitehawk,you have to raise your clench fist and threaten to punch it in its fat belly.
      Which i have done i gave one a stunning right hook knocked the beggar right out the sky as it was trying to steal my grand daughters ice cream cone.

      Me 1 shitehawk 0,bring it on shitehawks i have your number lol

    466. Petra says:

      ‘State Censorship: Media banned from filming questions to Boris Johnson.’

      https://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/state-censorship-media-banned-from-filming-questions-to-boris-johnson/

    467. Petra says:

      WGD:- ‘The wind in our sails.’

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/08/05/the-wind-in-our-sails/

      …………………

      I really like this video. The foetus reminds me of Scotland preparing to enter the world and take it by storm. Spread love and peace. And look at these dolphins bequeathing us with their intelligence. Yeah I know I can get carried away at times, lol, but hey no matter what it won’t be long now. How lucky are we to be the people living in this most historical of times?

      ‘Winds of Change.’

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVwvRpiLjBM

      ……………….

      And another favourite. Let’s not sleep on the job, folks. This is what Westminster wants. This is what we’re fighting for (and the REST).

      Wings over Scotland…..

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHu2zrHQyUE

    468. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Missed Rev’s contribution to the LBC call-in but did catch James O’Brien fulsomely apologising for past ignorance re Scottish and Irish issues. Takes a big person to admit as much, especially on live radio, so more power to him. It’s such a tonic to hear a metropolitan voice (and an important one at that) making a genuine effort to understand what’s happening.

      😉

    469. Nana says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Here’s a small segment from a gentleman called Clive

      https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/scottish-independence-opposite-to-brexit/

      I think once the programme is archived you will be able to listen again.

    470. Capella says:

      Hi Smallaxe – great to see you commenting again. Hope you feel well and are able to keep on keeping on till we can all celebrate Independence Day. Soon.

    471. Robert Peffers says:

      @North chiel says: 7 August, 2019 at 12:47 am:

      ” … Any attempt by the Britnat establishment 2nd eleven to entice the SNP into “ a pact” would have ulterior motives principally relating to the preservation of “ the precious precious union …

      You will find our FM has the measure of them, North chiel.

      Nicola has stated the SNP is prepared to work with any Labour party, either in government or opposition, but only on an informal manner.

      That is on an item by item basis but never in a formal coalition. She has said so on several occasions. Seems our First Minister is not nearly so naïve as some indy supporters think she is.

      It really is not her fault that the Westminster tame propagandist media simply do not report such things. By the way, it is very noticeable the SMSM have ramped up the SNP BAAAAD tactics since the news broke that polls are showing indy support has now overtaken pro-Union voting intentions.

      Methinks there has been a rise in badly soiled underwear all of a sudden and particularly south of the Watford Gap.

    472. Dr Jim says:

      To support or not to support a referendum in Scotland, that is the question, or to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune and hope something else will turn up to make Scotland vote Labour again

      Or they could just do what the Tories tell them and admit that England is a dictatorship by flat out denting a vote on one thing but offering a vote on another that makes not a jot of difference to Scotland because as we have all seen clearly no matter what Scotland votes for or against Scotland’s votes only count when England is happy with the result

      The comedy festival statement, as it may later become known as saw John McDonnell a figure in the English branch of the Labour party say that Scotland should decide whatever it wants on it’s own constitutional future, this statement then threw his party into disarray as other figures in his Labour party were unhappy with that statement as it goes against the very nature of dictatorship politics which have been the norm in the UK for a long time

      Did John McDonnell mean what he said or indeed say what he meant, well, it doesn’t really matter does it because if you give any of what he said one second’s credence then you were fooled yet again by English dictatorship politics as to how they, using the power of *the UK* should hold the power to to give or take away anything from Scotland

      If you want Independence for Scotland or indeed anything for Scotland you vote SNP and by the power of that vote Scotland can take what is ours and not have to wait until a person of no importance representing another country offers you the chance to let them decide when that will be

      The last time the Labour party were in power in Scotland they gave Scottish tax payers money to England as a gift, they didn’t even build a sweetie shop for kids or a swimming pool or even purchase one extra bus or buy one kidney machine for a hospital, or they could’ve built some houses, even more than the six they built on Orkney, yes six houses out of all that money that was

      How much again?

      The Labour party, screwing you is their job, and they mean it

    473. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Cheers Nana, appreciated.

    474. Robert Peffers says:

      @Famous15 says: 7 August, 2019 at 12:48 am:

      ” … The British Government should fund Indyref 2 and call it the Union Line.”

      Nice one Famous15. Thing is that Union Line has just become a high speed line and it stars in Edinburgh, with a high speed link to Glasgow and electrification links to all points north.

    475. Cubby says:

      After 312 years of Scotland being subjugated in the horrendous UK union we are finally going to be the generation that sets Scotland free to determine its own future. I have no doubt that it will be smiles better than any future under the tyranny of London.

      Britnats are going barmy all over the place. Pathetic creatures.

      The best Johnston can come up with is the lie of a promise of a once in a generation vote.

    476. Doug says:

      Nationalism is baaaaaad, says extreme rabid British nationalist Ian Murray MP.

    477. Robert Peffers says:

      @Roland Smith says:7 August, 2019 at 8:37 am:

      … The bottom line is actually negotiating and rejoining the EU is going to take a small amount of time.”

      Whoa There! Roland. You are making assumptions that an independent Scotland would even be out of the EU. Look at this logic for consideration:- The United Kingdom is legally a two partner union of legally equally sovereign kingdoms- they had to be so in order to agree to a Treaty of Union. That being so the European Union would be well within its right to say that one part of the United Kingdom voted to leave and is doing so against the express wishes of the legally sovereign people of Scotland, (who are all also EU citizens).

      So the EU could declare that the Kingdom of England, (three countries), can get what they voted for and the Kingdom of Scotland could remain as the legacy member state, (with renegotiated terms). All perfectly legal and everyone getting what it voted for. The legal point being that the United Kingdom is composed of two equally sovereign kingdoms and it is wrong to treat it as if it were only The Kingdom of England.

      The whole idea that it is a, “Brexit”, is wishful thinking by the Westminster government.

      Westminster does not rule Britain it only rules the UK of Britain and thus all Britain will not be exiting. Britain is a geographic term that describes the entire British Isles and neither Southern Ireland or the Crown Protectorates are under Westminster rule.

    478. Robert Peffers says:

      @Abulhaq says:7 August, 2019 at 8:58 am:

      ” … Sturgeon’s obsession has turned the SNP into a one issue party….Stop Brexit.”

      Oh! For heaven’s sake, Abulhaq, get your facts correct.

      The SNP was formed in 1934 by the union of two parties that both had as their raison . The new amalgamated party had as its raison d’être Independence for Scotland. Thus the answer to Ian Murray and company is to remind them that the SNP’s sole raison d’être is, and always has been – INDEPENDENCE FOR SCOTLAND.

    479. Proud Cybernat says:

      Andrew Learmonth
      ?
      @andrewlearmonth
      2h2 hours ago

      BREAKING: Richard Leonard responds to John McDonnell’s comments: “I met with John this morning, and I made clear to him that a second independence referendum is unwanted by the people of Scotland and it is unnecessary.
      “The 2014 referendum was a once in a generation vote. “

      https://twitter.com/proud_cybernat/status/1159075667931217920

      So Leonard, having blown off both his feet, now takes aim at his head.

    480. PictAtRandom says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      7 August, 2019 at 1:13 pm

      @Abulhaq says:7 August, 2019 at 8:58 am:

      ” … Sturgeon’s obsession has turned the SNP into a one issue party….Stop Brexit.”

      Oh! For heaven’s sake, Abulhaq, get your facts correct.

      The SNP was formed in 1934 by the union of two parties that both had as their raison .

      The Scottish Party was formed in 1928 from a breakaway section of the Cathcart Conservatives. Worth reminding current BritCon voters of this fact and asking them if we might expect to “see their like again”.

      (Cross-reference under “Fluffy & The Colonel”.)

    481. Golfnut says:

      @ Colin Alexander.

      Not one of your most lucid posts since your argument seems to be rather convoluted.

      The authors of the Declaration of Arbroath had absolutely no difficulty in acknowledging the Bruce’s ‘ divine right ‘ to sit on Scotland’s throne by dint of his lineage and the agreement of the people of Scotland.

      The Papal court obviously understood exactly what was meant, simples.

    482. North chiel says:

      “ Robert Peffers@1215” Agree Robert that our FM is a “ smart cookie” .,She certainly needs to be in the current situation . However, Macdonnel also said the most important matter was the election of a Labour government. My suspicion is that this is an attempt to shore up what’s left of the Labour vote in Scotland by way of a pre GE election “ vow” . to “ allow” an independence vote , but of course no date is mentioned . Hopefully , if Brexit takes place on Oct 31st our FM will announce a referendum date and thereafter his comments will be irrelevant.

    483. Robert Peffers says:

      @Colin Alexander says: 7 August, 2019 at 11:14 am:

      @Robert Peffers
      Mary, was Mary Stewart, the daughter of King James VII. The sovereignty of the people of Scotland v non-sovereignty of the monarch IN SCOTLAND has not always been as clear cut as you suggest.”

      Rubbish Colin, First of all I did not suggest anything, I stated catagorically – that the law of Scotland was changed forever by the Declaration of Arbroath. Now even that has to be rather a doubtful statement but not as you claim. The Declaration of Arbroath makes the claim of the people’s sovereignty based upon evidence that it is already the law of Scotland.

      Thus I’m not making that same claim but only that the people’s sovereignty became part of internationally recognised law when the Holy Roman See accepted it as being so.

      The point is that as international law from 1320 it doesn’t matter what the crown or anyone else claims. Just as today, when Westminster claims to be sovereign over Scotland, all it takes for their claims to be negated is for a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland to assert their legal, “Claim of Right”, for the current claims to be legally negated.

      What follows is that the people’s sovereignty is returned to the people but the people must democratically decide who or what organisation has the power of sovereignty then delegated to them.

      I’ll simplify all that for you – The Declaration of Arbroath claimed the people of Scotland were sovereign by claiming the people could drive out a monarch who did not protect their sovereignty.

      That declaration claim indicates the people already had sovereignty and thus the Monarch was only the protector of the people’s sovereignty. Nowhere have I stated what that was previously based upon or on what Scottish laws it was based upon. Only that the Declaration claimed it did and it thus became internationally recognised as Scots law and it still is today.

      The point being that even if someone or some organisation claims to be sovereign, (as Westminster does today), doesn’t make them sovereign it simply means the democratic majority of the people have not yet removed them from the job.

      The people remain legally sovereign and only a majority of the sovereign people can remove the current appointee and replace them with another person or organisation until they also are removed by the wishes of the people.

      Now there is a mandate by a majority of the people to find out if the people wish to change their delegate(s), to wield their sovereignty – and Westminster is shitting itself because it knows it will not be them that is chosen.

    484. Jack Murphy says:

      OFF TOPIC. Yesterday Professor John Robertson took a long hard look at BBC Reporting Scotland and STV News the previous evening

      The full article is definitely well worth a read…

      ” Last night, as I watched Reporting Scotland’s hatchet job on the Health Secretary and their avoidance, despite having 30 minutes to cover it in, of the large sample opinion poll showing support for independence at 52%, I decided to compare them with the STV broadcast at 6pm.

      STV headlined the poll and gave it a measured response. It was by no means uncritically enthusiastic about the research or the findings, but they were essentially fair and on the problems with the new hospital, they were more professional and less tabloid.

      Main points:…”

      TALKING-UP SCOTLAND:
      https://tinyurl.com/y55k2nfj

    485. Golfnut says:

      @ Robert Peffers.

      Hi Robert, good riposte as usual. A couple of points though.
      The custom of sovereignty, ‘ our ways and laws ‘ probably came directly from the Pictish Kingdoms rather than only Scots usage.
      I think it is worth reminding people that when we lend our Sovereignty it is to an individual rather than a place. Our elected representatives exercise our Sovereignty on our behalf in Parliament, we do not make Parliament Sovereign, parliamentary sovereignty is not recognised in Scots Constitutional law. The difference between Scottish and English Constitutional law places a heavy burden of duty on those we elect, a duty that almost all of the British nationalist party MP’s we have elected have either forgotten, never knew or completely disregarded.

    486. Jon Davies says:

      Interesting. Wonder how long Nicola will wait before calling another referendum. My bet would be post 2021….so it will probably be next week!

    487. Colin Alexander says:

      @ Robert Peffers

      I don’t dispute the people are sovereign. I am saying Stewart Kings acted as if they were sovereign and were able to do so despite the laws you refer to. These Kings controlled parliament and parliament made laws that were contrary to the Declaration of Arbroath etc.

      It took civil wars in Scotland (and England) to re-establish that the Stewarts weren’t sovereign in Scotland. England continued to accept the monarchy as sovereign as long as that sovereignty could be exercised by the English Parliament.

      We face a similar situation again today, where UK Parliament declare they are sovereign and act as if they are, when ultimate sovereignty lies with the people of Scotland. But, until our sovereignty is enforced we are treated as a colony. As you admitted yourself, whoever exercises power is, in effect, sovereign.

      Power, sovereignty, is rarely willingly given up. It has to be taken back by the people. In the 1600’s the people (at first) peacefully simply defied the Crown’s orders and were martyred etc. It led to civil war. (I’m not suggesting we have to go to war this time).

      However, if the SNP and YES movement believe the UK State will willingly give up sovereignty over Scotland because we quote the Declaration of Arbroath 1320, and Claim of Right 1689, and remind them the people of Scotland are sovereign, then that is incredibly naive.

      If the SNP wait for permission from the UK state for the people of Scotland to exercise their sovereignty, free of UK Parliament rule, I expect they will be waiting a VERY long time.



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