The cat and all the pigeons
Our most extra-specially alert readers may have recently noticed the website of some dodgy chancer claiming that a recent opinion poll by Survation showed high support for a pro-independence list party led by Alex Salmond.
Unfortunately, no such poll existed. The site owner blanked every request to back up his assertion with a link to the supposed survey, and it rapidly became clear that it was a totally fabricated piece of attention-seeking which we won’t indulge with a link.
But it seemed worth asking the question for real.
So we added the question to our latest Panelbase poll, conducted last week. And the results were pretty explosive.
(We’d like to take a moment at this point to note for the record that this article is the first Alex Salmond will be hearing about the poll. It wasn’t his idea, he wasn’t notified in advance, and we have no reason to believe he intends to form any such party.)
The headline figures – that 26% of Scottish voters would either definitely or probably give their list vote to a Salmond-led list party – were fairly stunning in themselves for a brand new party. But it’s not until you stop and think about what those numbers mean that the full significance sinks in.
Because clearly, the appeal of such a party would be fundamentally restricted to half of the electorate – the half that wants independence. So what really matters is how many votes it gets from Yes supporters, whose list votes are currently almost totally wasted. And that’s where the picture gets really interesting.
A familiar-sounding 45% of 2014 Yes voters said they’d either definitely or probably vote for Salmond’s party, with another 33% not prepared to rule it out. And in fact 11% of No voters agreed. Those are absolutely huge numbers for a new party, but there’s a limit to what they tell us because they’re not data translatable to a Holyrood election. For that we need a breakdown by party, and luckily we have one.
Wow. A thumping 40% of SNP voters – not the mere 28% of the fake poll – say they’d definitely or probably vote for a Salmond party, but even more extraordinary is the 31% of 2019 Labour voters who would too (along with 9% of Tories and 7% of Lib Dems).
And yet it’s logical. A very large minority of Scottish Labour voters – polls consistently suggest anywhere between 30% and 40% – want independence, but their party is an irrelevant joke with no hope of any kind of power and it keeps doubling and tripling down on its total intransigence on the constitution. Any Yes supporters still voting for it at this point must be pretty implacably hostile to the SNP, but they might well view a party fronted by Salmond as a welcome thorn in its side as well as a positive force for indy. (And they’d likely be right.)
When Gavin Barrie analysed Scottish Parliament voting data for us last year, he didn’t even dare contemplate numbers this high for a new pro-indy list party, stopping his calculations at 35% of the SNP list vote alone, which comes to just 14% of the total list vote. But these numbers are almost twice his wildest scenario – if we plug them into yesterday’s Panelbase poll, it suggests the notional Salmond party would be picking up a staggering 609,153 votes.
(In fact, probably a smidgen more than that, because we didn’t have any data to factor in anyone who might change their list vote from the Greens. Plus there’s the almost a quarter of respondents who said they might vote for the new party but more likely wouldn’t. If only a tenth of them did, Salmond would actually WIN the list vote, beating even the SNP into second place.)
That’s far more than the Tories got (502,000) in 2016, for which they picked up 24 list seats, and more still than Labour (436,000), who won 21 list seats. (And both of those figures were reduced by the Tories and Labour also winning some constituency seats – 7 and 3 respectively – which wouldn’t be the case for a new list party.)
It’s more than four times the Green list vote in 2016, and over five times the Lib Dem list vote. Indeed, it’s quite substantially more than the combined total of the Green and Lib Dem list AND constituency votes (461,000). According to the Election Polling seat forecaster it’d be enough to secure 28 seats.
Caveats apply to such predictions, as we noted last night. But that’d be one more than the Tories, Labour and Lib Dems put together. Alex Salmond would be, by a very great distance, the second biggest force in the Scottish Parliament, and a large swathe of Unionist dead weight would suddenly be looking for new employment.
The broadness of Salmond’s cross-demographic appeal was notable. There was no discernible difference in the level of his definite-or-probable support among Remain and Leave voters, for example, coming in at 27% and 26% respectively.
Nor, despite Salmond having endured months and months of smearing, innuendo and malicious speculation over a series of false sexual-assault allegations, was there much of a gap between men and women, recording 29% and 24% backing.
And perhaps the most surprisingly to us, support was highest among the youngest age groups. That might have been partly expected because the young tend to be much more in favour of independence, but they’re also the most “woke” and Salmond is a straight white man in his 60s, a set of characteristics often derided by modern youth as “male, pale and stale” and much sneered at by the punditariat.
Yet 33% of 16-34 voters said they’d definitely or probably back his party if he created one, and 28% of those from 35 to 54. Only Salmond’s contemporaries in the oldest age group – those most likely to be Unionist – bucked the trend, scoring just 18%.
But by far the biggest gulf, despite Salmond being a noted and genuine Anglophile, came by country of birth. While 28% of native Scots and 23% of those from beyond the UK were supportive, a miserly 12% of those respondents resident in Scotland but born in England (around 9% of the sample) said they’d vote for his party.
These figures will be causing something akin to sheer blind panic at SNP HQ, not least because they come BEFORE any revelations from the inquiry into whether the party, the Scottish Government, the Scottish civil service and Police Scotland were engaged in a conspiracy to frame Salmond on the sexual assault charges.
We must emphasise again that we have no grounds to believe Alex Salmond DOES intend to form a list party. He may wish to rejoin the SNP. He may even wish to try to take back control of it. Or he may want a well-earned rest after the traumas of the last couple of years. All of this is entirely hypothetical.
But if he did re-enter the fray, it seems very clear from these findings that the “both votes SNP” strategy that wasted close to a million votes in 2016 would be blown clean out of the water. Holyrood would have a vast pro-indy majority, dozens of Unionist seatwarmers would be out on their ears, and – and here’s where the scenario differs from the SNP/indy majority currently being suggested by Holyrood opinion polling – the SNP would be under unprecedented pressure to actually get moving and do something about independence.
(As well as having to reconsider the enormous arrogant hubris and complacency that’s currently afflicting the administration and causing it to stubbornly push through some extremely unpopular and badly-thought-out policies.)
We hope readers are as excited about that possibility, even as just a theory, as we are.
Julia Gibb
Aka Capella.
If there are more than me questioning the SNP strategy towards Independence, then why did you single me out?
I think I know why.
Because you are too much of a coward to attack me under your own name of Capella.
So you come back at me with a ghost name.
And I also used to be a member of the snp, but then I saw that under Sturgeon Scotland was going no where.
As Blackford confirmed this morning.
Looks like the day will bring in 12 Million Confirmed Covid Cases
550 Thousand declared deaths
With 7 Million appearing to have recovered
Spikes appearing around the globe even in China where lockdown
Was applied in the most severe manner imaginable.
I have every faith in Boris and the Tory Party to take the worst managed
Covid management to new heights and make the UK spike the most fatal.
Let’s Bullshit, Bullshit, Bullshit for England and St George!
Oscar – stop acting! You’ve got your prize. Now grow up!
Thanks Robert Louis,
Unless we have a change of leader and strategy, we will miss this golden chance to regain our freedom.
Sturgeon has weakened Scotlands Soverignty with her delays, nature denying policies and in-action.
Also her meek, pathetic begging for Westminster’s permission to have a referendum.
Her pathetic brigade of careerists at westminster are no better.
Plenty of her crew posting here though.
Getting rid of sturgeon and her woke inner circle will Not split the independence cause, it will open up a proper front against the unionist establishment.
Something sturgeon has desperately tried to avoid.
Maybe she could start a stop brexit party.
That worked well didn’t it?!
@ Julia Gibb – 🙂
Scots law is subordinate to Westminster’s authority, and Westminster does not appear to acknowledge the common law applies to Scotland as it does to England. So the Scottish government simply does not have the necessary powers to defend Scotland from covid-19. That means contemporary British constitutional legal practice prevents the Scottish government from properly respect public health ethics, and ensures Scots can’t access their right to health, and other fundamental rights.
As this problem is unlikely to improve much if Scotland is dragged out of the EU, here’s a peak at how German law treats the economic, social, and cultural rights of its’ citizens. If only Scotland did not have to depend on solicitors who are trained to view the world the lens of British constitutional law.
Summary
The Justiciability of Economic, Social and Cultural Rights in Domestic Law
https://www.mpil.de/files/pdf1/beitr234.pdf
P.S. I think the best Scotland can hope to achieve legally and politically before the end of the year, is to ensure a constitutional backstop to prevent Scotland’s further legal subjugation by Westminster. The fact that no action has been made to securing such, indicates a criminal dereliction of duty, IMHO.
@ MaggieC – Kevin McKenna is really a Labour man IMO and has blown hot and cold on independence over the years. But maybe, like most Labour voters, he is almost beginning to give up hope.
He writes an insightful article.
And will England take a second wave to new heights.
Well on the day that it was announced by Matt Hancock that the government were going to reintroduce NHS worker parking charges, the breaking news from a few minutes ago is that a hospital accident and emergency in Boris Johnson’s constituency has had to be closed because of an outbreak of COVID.
Yep, maybe those in the NHS who worked so hard putting their lives at risk to save the lives of others will now review exactly what their commitment was worth. They might even reflect on the fucker Johnson who quite frankly would have done everyone a favour if he’d succumbed to the virus.
The morality of providing health care to Tories like Johnson, Cummings and their ilk becomes clearer every day. Why would you put your life on the line to help people like them.
Halle Berry had to grovelingly apologise to the transcult and their woke enablers for saying she would act the role of a man transitioning into a transwoman,
a woman acting as a man who wants to act as a woman,
the transcult don`t want a woman to act as a man,
is than no the whole premise of transitioning,
the transcult and their woke enablers are draging society down the rabbit hole to the mad world of Wonderland.
Have never agreed with huge amounts of what JK Rowling has had to say but I am a bit perplexed at the brick bats she is getting over signing a support for freedom of thought and speech.
“Down with freedom of thought” is a rather medieval approach to social control. All that has changed is the definition of heretic, the pitch forks remain ready. Perhaps Durkheim was right about the normality of crime.
The independence movement is, rightly, much stronger than any one individual.
.
Julia Gibb,
Away and behave yourself.
It is YOU attacking the likes of Oscar that are in the wrong.
Julia, do you really believe for one second that Alex Salmond is going to let this injustice pass and go meekly into retirement?
Do you really believe that the Oscars of this world (and I stand with Oscar) are going to fade away into the night?
Julia, when you provide answers to the scheming overpromoted but competent looking Nicola Sturgeon as per this website’s article…
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-betrayer
Then perhaps you can abuse Oscar in the way you feel you have the right to do.
Until then, please haud yer weesht.
Perhaps the time has come for Mr Kelly and Mr Campbell to put their egos in their handbags and step into the car park.
Ohh, someone who thinks what they are saying is so important it needs to be done entirely in bold, will it be bold capitals next?
Is it me just that sees what seems to be trolls having discussions with each other, telling each other how insightful they are. They never disagree with each other and are always ‘on message’.
Al-Stuart says:
8 July, 2020 at 11:40 am
Fffs Al stuart.
Oscar is not for indy. How many times do you people not get it. He’s a scarlet yoon pimpernel masquerading .
That ballon j.a.ckie , m.i.llinium or one of his others, keep up.
Al-Stuart says:
8 July, 2020 at 11:40 am
Fffs Al stuart.
Oscar is not for indy. How many times do you people not get it. He’s a scarlet yoon pimpernel masquerading .
That balloon j.a.ckie , m.i.llinium or one of his others, keep up.
One thing is certain, folks.
We’re ripe for a revolution.
Get yer skates oan.
Here’s why I think the lack of effort to secure a constitutional backstop, points to the legal perspective that is insufficiently informed to protect the fundamental rights of those living in Scotland.
Full text.
https://www.scottishhumanrights.com/media/1809/models_of_incorporation_escr_vfinal_nov18.pdf
sorry….points to a legal perspective.
COURTS AND THE LEGAL ENFORCEMENT OF
ECONOMIC, SOCIAL AND CULTURAL RIGHTS
COMPARATIVE EXPERIENCES OF JUSTICIABILITY
HUMAN RIGHTS AND RULE OF LAW SERIES: N0. 2
https://ijrcenter.org/thematic-research-guides/economic-social-and-cultural-rights-2/
O.T. Anyone else not able to access archived content?
Pompous git. Complete ignoral is the best option IMO.
Interesting column in The National today from Chris McEleny in cross-party Indyref 2 call .
http://archive.vn/4VbYZ
Capitalists never leave an opportunity unexploited, even in a crisis.
https://www.topman.com/en/tmuk/category/shoes-and-accessories-1928527/view-all-accessories-5139022/fashion-face-masks/
These have no medical value, but look good in that gay ‘orientalist’ way.
Made in China, where Muslim dress, particularly face covering, is illegal.
What’s Chinese for ‘there’s one born every minute’…
Ottomanboi
Do you still support right-wing philosophers who deny the significance of biology and the concept of universal human rights?
Norms and Legal Normativity, 34 | 2018
Legal philosophy as practical philosophy
https://journals.openedition.org/revus/3859
Haven’t had time to read all comments since yesterday so apologies if this has already been posted.
A must-read.
https://www.conter.co.uk/blog/2020/7/7/snp-at-the-crossroads
RE.The comments begging for, or actually implementing another Referendum with the russian roulette approach of no residential minimum term requirements, I make no apologies for repeating this contribution of 2018:
In 2011 census, 459,000 Scottish residents were born in England; 54,000 were born in Wales and N.I. giving a total of 513,000, therefore nearly 10% of our electorate is RUK.
Of our total population, 62% identified as Scottish only. Worryingly, 18% identified as Scottish and British. As expected, the largest cohort ,25% of people aged between 65-74 years, were in this group.
The highest Scottish ‘identifiers only’ live in N.Lanarkshire; Inverclyde; East Ayrshire; and West Dunbartonshire. Significantly amongst the poorest areas of our country. This figure is 90%.
The lowest ‘Only Scottish identifiers’ are , not surprisingly, in Edinburgh (49%) and Aberdeen (55%) two of the most prosperous areas. I find these statistics worrying, because unlike some on here, I believe that identity is the key to our survival as a Independent nation, not ethnicity. However, ethnicity i.e. country of birth, not race, is a determinant in the UK context, because of the imperialist brainwashing that has gone on for centuries.
RUK immigrants have for the past thirty to forty years dominated the senior positions in our public service institutions e.g our Universities. They are the voice of Scotland in many sectors. A short listen to BBC Scotland radio or our tv networks demonstrates the overwhelming ubiquity of non Scots in senior positions. There has been a welcome increase in non UK professionals, but they are only a leavening of the anglocentric dominance of our society.
Why is this significant? Well, as the identification element of the census demonstrates, as we become more anglicised as a society, we begin to lose our self awareness as a nation. The media and big business have colluded to increase this effect.
There is a class element in this: predominantly wealthy RUK people selling inflated priced properties and fleeing to the better parts of Scotland: Aberdeen, Edinburgh, the highlands and islands‘Perthshire, Dfs & G, and the Borders.
There is also evidence that as they attain the top jobs that they recruit their own. Thus, we have the example of hardly any Scottish University heads or Edinburgh Festival Directors etc.
We have an open border. As Brexit progresses, there will be more RUK coming here. The Rev’s poll showed up to 4 million English would consider moving here. They will not be coming here to become Scottish. Unless we vote ourselves back into national sovereignty, only then will those migrants have the choice of becoming Scottish by taking on our citizenship. More ominously, the birthrate in Scotland is now at its lowest since the 1850s and there are less indigenous Scots residing here than since the First World War.
Therefore, in order to break our colonial status, we need to enforce long term residency qualification for voting until we can sustain the numbers to win, and lose the wide open electoral franchise, which is unreciprocated anywhere else in the world . Quebec lost out to Anglphone emigration. Similarly, our namesake New Caledonia lost out in its Independence from France because residents with French identity outvoted the native Kanaks. Old Caledonia must protect itself from being outvoted back into existence.
I see George ‘the hat’ Galloway is begging the English parties in Scotland to what I assume is a single BritNat party to fight to keep Scotland English, maybe they’ll get a cormorant as recognition. Still Together Party.
He has the support of historywoman, what else needs said!
His political credibility has receded faster than his hairline (why else do men start wearing hats).
Is this a preview of the SNP of the future?
Or maybe its already here.
Why I was rejected for Labour Party membership and my response
http://archive.vn/P93Qe
Forgot to include Galloway’s tweet, worth it for a laugh.
https://twitter.com/georgegalloway/status/1280446726764220422
I won’t try to deny the pluralistic and democratic project that is the EU, has been out-maneuvered, to a certain extent anyway, by global capitalism. The European Central Bank domination of social policy is a problem, though not insurmountable, and mitigated by not adopting the Euro.
The EU would certainly provide Scotland with mahoosively more legal recognition and autonomy that Westminster does. Globilisation has ensured the world is neo-liberal in general governmental terms, and the EU can be turned around, so long as we take the threat of right-wing populism seriously.
Britain is no longer a social democracy, thanks to the hard-right forcing mainstream politics to appease the hard-right. Scotland needs to take to its’ toes, so now is not the time to be turning folk away from the EU, IMHO.
A CONSTITUTIONAL LAW GUIDE TOWARDS UNDERSTANDING ZIMBABWE’S FUNDAMENTAL SOCIO-ECONOMIC AND CULTURAL HUMAN RIGHTS
https://constitutionallythinking.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/a-constitutional-law-guide-towards-understanding-zimbabwes-fundamental-socio-economic-and-cultural-human-rights.pdf
@ Lochside – well said. I do think the domination of Scottish public life by English directors/broadcasters/experts etc is a deliberate attempt to convince us that we have no capacity to run our own affairs. TV and radio is almost completely devoid of genuine Scottish content.
A residence qualification may well be a good idea since, as you point out, in Quebec they were inundated with immigrants from other Canadian provinces before their second referendum was held.
@ jfngw – I wonder why George Galloway copied his anti-Scottish tweet to Michael Gove?
@ mike cassidy – yes. That is a preview of where wokeism is going. The Greens are worse and the Lib Dems ditto. The SNP are not there yet. Let’s make sure they draw back from the brink.
BTW Karen Ingala Smith is a very strong person and committed to human rights which are also women’s rights. As her closing poster suggests, if there’s no room for women like her in the Labour Party then she won’t work for its success.
Aye! said as much in May: Such a shame. 🙁
—————————————————————
Scotland’s councils have been released of the legal obligation to double free childcare provision by August, in the wake of the coronavirus pandemic forcing councils to re-direct funds elsewhere.
Ms Sturgeon adds that the Scottish government will get it back on track as quickly as possible, and that she remains “just as committed today as I was pre-Covid” to fulfilling this commitment.
————————————————————-
Game changer as a vote winner in Holyrood Election. 🙁
PS:
Scots in pain, as no Spain and the virus gets the blame.
Spain not on the list of exempt countries for Quarantine.
Targeting the List seats at Holyrood Election makes so much sense. Thanks to Stuart and others who have done the analysis and research and number crunching to show how effective this could be. Lots of thinking outside the box and generating ideas and developing our thoughts on this.
The SNP may be riding high in the polls but, as Stuart highlighted recently, the pollsters can get it very wrong. As others have said, over-confidence breeds carelessness.
We desperately need a majority pro Indy Scottish Parliament which can get to it, immediately and re-establish our legally binding sovereignty, no ifs, no buts. I see the pro Indy parties/candidates as Ambassadors for Indy…no false promises, no “ isms “ anywhere please, no tribal party politics. Keep it real.
Whilst I think that no one leader should be a god or goddess, a king or queen or the witch doctor of a tribe who knows everything ( they are high-level officials/civil servants elected to carry out a function ), I am so enthused by the prospect of Alex Salmond’s return to politics…in whatever shape or form is fine by me. That wee video clip of him, posted by MaggieC yesterday, made my heart leap. He is looking well and lean and mean. Throw down the gauntlet Alex and I guarantee that your supporters will rise to the challenge.
A final thought…Humza Yousaf’s tweet about the handful of concerned Indy supporters at our Border was deeply offensive and vitriolic in nature. He has a lust for power about him, in my view. He seems unrestrained by moderation and a sense of justice.His desire for more power is evident in the appalling Hate Crime Bill so he can criminalise, weaponise and control our views and opinions and thoughts and free speech. Socrates may have been right when he argued, in Plato’s Republic, that only those who do not wish for political power can be trusted with it.
Breaking news:
Britain will nominate former trade secretary Liam Fox as its candidate to be the next director general of the World Trade Organization, it said on Wednesday.
“Dr Fox is a passionate advocate of multilateralism, who brings detailed knowledge of the global trading system from his years as a UK Cabinet Minister and Secretary of State for International Trade,” Prime Minister Boris Johnson said in a statement.
Err! Other news.
In the 2009 expenses scandal, he was the Shadow Cabinet minister found to have the largest over-claim on expenses and, as a result, was forced to repay the most money.
In 2010, he was appointed Defence Secretary by Prime Minister David Cameron, a position from which he resigned on 14 October 2011 over allegations that he had given a close friend, lobbyist Adam Werritty, inappropriate access to the Ministry of Defence and allowed him to join official trips overseas.
Just the man for the job. 🙂
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1280766673490976769
Good thing I’m #GreenAsFuck and developing my foraging skills to prepare for the impending drop in food standards.
20 minute walk and picked a 1/2lb of chanterelles for my dinner, locally sourced, no packaging, and no Butcher’s Apron flegs! 😉
Relevant info-graphic from Colin Dunn re. above post.
https://twitter.com/Zarkwan/status/1280837537767063552
sorry….the world is neo-liberal in general governmental terms, but the EU can be turned around, so long as we take the threat of right-wing populism seriously.
Perth International Law Journal, 72, 2016
SOCIAL RIGHTS AS HUMAN RIGHTS: DISCUSSION OF THE LEGAL PROTECTION OF SOCIO-ECONOMIC RIGHTS IN AUSTRALIA
http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/PerIntLawJl/2016/8.html
Liam Fox as DG of the WTO? Nothing would surprise me, given the way the international rule-of-law in under attack from international corporate power and dark money (see Brexit).
Journal of Social Ontology | Volume 4: Issue 2
The Social Ontology of Democracy
https://www.degruyter.com/view/journals/jso/4/2/article-p157.xml
I remember Dr Fox taking a business friend, who could be scratching his back on official
UK trade tours at the tax payers expense.
Should never have happened so he had to go off grid for a short time.
Also recall him announcing a potential trade deal with New Guine
Who have exotic birds for sale so the future looks bright?
People on twitter continuing to remind everyone that the latest statement from Boris Johnson is a lie. Now that is a time consuming pastime, it would be quicker to tweet when he tells the truth as you would still be waiting to send that first tweet. He can hardly get through a single sentence without it encompassing a lie somewhere within it, it seems to be a congenital hereditary condition within the Johnson lineage.
Westminster intends to impose its UK single market policies on Scotland and force us to eat sub standard food. I hope the people of Scotland and its government intend to ignore this legislation and use devolved public health to ban these products from Scotland.
We need to watch which outlets intend to sell this poisonous food and have them boycotted. It’s time we imposed our sovereignty and told this English government to fuck off.
To go back to who is allowed to vote on Scotland’s freedom if it,is all right for Westminster to pas a bill EVEL English votes on English laws then we should pass on SVSL so only the people who were born In Scotland can vote on the future of THEIR country no one else sauce for the goose etc.,
Scotland could easily avoid Brexit through recourse to constitutional law that is coherent and compatible with international law, rather that British constitutional DOGMA.
I’m in no position to influence policy, but would someone who is, please organise for a constitutional backstop to protect Scottish society from authoritarian English nationalism? TA.
International Journal of Constitutional Law, Volume 7, Issue 1, January 2009, Pages 155–169
Judicial Review, Socio-Economic Rights and the Human Rights Act
Weak Courts, Strong Courts: Judicial Review and Social Welfare Rights in Comparative Constitutional Law
https://academic.oup.com/icon/article/7/1/155/665844
Pathological liars with long histories of doing so lie!
Don’t they Boris.
Blair Paterson @3:58pm
It’s a thorny problem but if Westminster could bus in a few hundred thousand just to thwart any chance of independence sooner or later the problem of who is eligible to vote has to be grasped. It will also have to be done with some amount of rigor otherwise you will just be setting yourself up for failure. It’s going to be impossible to avoid displeasing someone so it’s better that the Scottish Government develop a backbone and decides that breaking a few eggs is simply the price of the independence omelette.
jfngw @3:52pm
But, but, but, boycotting American, chlorinated chicken because it came from American is clearly rac*st. You can be sure that Yousaf will call you out on it.
Blair Paterson@3.58.
I understand your anger regarding “who gets to vote in the next Indy Ref.”
I think you are completely missing the point by allowing only “Scots born” have the right. That ship sailed a few years back.
Personally I know many English born people who have lived in Scotland 50+ years, and regard themselves as Scots through choice.
“Scots at heart”, is surely worth a vote.
Maybe a minimum time could be used, maybe min 5 years living in Scotland and having paid tax, claimed benefits etc, for proof of living here. (only an idea).
Certainly second /holiday homes not allowed.
But banning non Scots is a bad idea, IMHO.
@Stuart Mackay
He could only claim that, I think, if I refused to eat actual Americans, surely. Even then they must be full of growth hormones, you are what you eat.
Lochside at 12:58: I was apprehensive about non-Scots voting in the run up to the 2014 referendum but the party seemed so hellbent on being “inclusive” that I knew I’d be shot down in flames if I raised it. You’re right, a lot of people vote based on identity and I can think of English people who have lived here for decades, but their allegiance is to England and they see us as part of some sort of Greater England. A minimum residency qualification might go some way to assuage it and would be better than the free-for-all we have now.
In the run up to the 2014 referendum I listed to a radio phone in on “young voters” and a lot of the students who were running university “No” campaigns were obviously English. The English commentator actually challenged one and she admitted that she’d be going home in a few months but said “I’ve got the right to vote”. If you add that to the high numbers of holiday home occupants who seemed to turn up in the days before the referendum to vote (which the local authorities don’t seem to check), the stories about people from Northern Ireland renting flats here for a few months in order to get a vote, vote “no” and then terminate the lease and go home and the distinctly odd, high postal vote which was wide open to fraud, we’ve got a problem and it’s not being addressed.
@Gary45%
Limit it to those who have had a Scottish tax code for at least a couple of years, for those who don’t have one yet (those still at school, either get one or parents one allows a vote).
If you don’t pay your income tax to Scotland you have no real right to decide a countries future.
Today’s corona figures show no deaths in N. Ireland for the 6th day.
Official UK total today says big Auntie BBC
Scotland……….today……..01……..Total…..2490…BBC
Wales………….today……..04……..Total…..1538…BBC
N. Ireland……..today……..00……..Total……554…BBC
England………..today…….*42……..Total..no data..*SUN
============================================================
UK…………….today…….126……..Total….44517…BBC
As usual no England figures on any of their web sites. 🙁
jfngw@4.37
Yes that sound fine with me.
All the blood and soil nationalists need to sit doon and gie themselves a good shake. Not only is trying to restrict voting rights to “native born Scots” a spectacularly bad look, it is wildly unpopular amongst the broader Yes movement and probably impractical organisationally.
Even if it WERE feasible and did enjoy majority support, what all you “this is a local country for local people” inbreds conveniently forget that if you’re going to make Scots birth a precondition, shouldn’t that extend to those in the diaspora? Around 750,000 in England, Wales and NI were born in Scotland, so logically you’d have to give them a vote, right….?
Trust me, having lived in England for 25 years until 2018, a large majority of those are staunch unionists.
We should be working as though we live in the early days of a better nation, not turning ourselves into the Scottish version of Jobbik in Hungary, Law and Justice in Poland or other right wing exclusivist movements. Plenty of current pro-indy folk – including me – would happily vote against any such proposal.
Don’t be surprised if there are lockdown restrictions of varying levels that carry through to next April. Across the UK in general I should add, in regional / local areas.
robbo
Your only contribution today was to dig me out and tell the world that I am against Scottish Independence.
I must have you rattled if that is the best you can come up with.
So not only do you think you have the right to tell people what to post on Wings,,,but you are now telling them what they should think.
You are a beauty sunshine.
Roaster with a capital “R”
You and Capella would make a lovely couple.
A gradualist’s wedding.
The honeymoon night would be a bit of an occasion, because the two of you will be undecided and would need to phone Sturgeon and ask her what to do next.
@Andy Ellis says:
8 July, 2020 at 5:06 pm
“Plenty of current pro-indy folk – including me – would happily vote against any such proposal.”
Glad to see there is some common sense here.
It wouldn’t just be unpopular in Scotland – the UN and EU would never support such a proposal, especially the EU. It would be viewed as blatant discrimination designed to rig a vote.
jfngw says:
8 July, 2020 at 4:37 pm
@Gary45%
Limit it to those who have had a Scottish tax code for at least a couple of years, for those who don’t have one yet (those still at school, either get one or parents one allows a vote).
If you don’t pay your income tax to Scotland you have no real right to decide a countries future.
=====================================================
I have heard that suggestion before in other places and I agree with it.
@Andy Ellis,
Nobody is trying to restrict voting rights to “native born Scots”,
In Israel you need to be a citizen to vote in the national elections
Israel has a 3 year residency to become an Israeli citizen,
you wouldn`t be accusing the Israeli of being as you say `Blood and Soil Nationalists,
`Adults may acquire Israeli citizenship through naturalization. To be eligible for naturalization, a person must have resided in Israel for three years out of the previous five years, have the right to reside in Israel on a permanent basis, renounce his or her previous citizenship and swear an oath of citizenship to the state reading,
“I declare that I will be a loyal national of the State of Israel.”
Andy Ellis calls it!
No ifs or buts we must be better or it will not be worth it.
Instead of “what if” make sure we convince indigenous and incomers.
“you wouldn`t be accusing the Israeli of being as you say `Blood and Soil Nationalists”
An influential section of Israeli society are racist, Zionist, nationalists, with an outlook that supports a politics that can be described as supportive of ‘blood and soil’ narratives. Their ethnically informed cultural prejudices are not too dis-similar from some of our hardcore Scots-born and Anglo yoons (see Prof. David Starkey).
Though I’m supportive of a ‘bedding-in’ period for new Scots, you can forget about democracy if you start defining participatory rights by ethnic origin. That’s what the Nazi’s tried to do, ffs.
People need to stop shooting down others who are concerned about who is allowed to vote.
It’s not blood and soil to be concerned.
Did anyone see much outcry when all EU citizens were not allowed to take part in the Brexit vote?
That is because Cummings knew if they were included , Remain would have won.
I don’t know the answer, I would say students who are temporary shouldn’t be allowed a vote.
Maybe we need to appeal to people to consider their position, if they intend to be in Scotland for a short time, they could be persuaded to abstain.
I wrote a post very recently listing some of the names leveled at folk who only want a fair democratic vote on Scotlands future, such as racist, anti English, anti democrat etc I forgot about blood and soil nationalist, thanks for the reminder Andy
Scot Finlayson5.47
Ask a Palestinian what its like having their land stolen and not being allowed to vote.
I hope to “whoever” Scotland never uses Israel as an example of how a country should be.
Then again we could just steal England, then claim we have done nothing wrong.
Andy Ellis
You also talk like you have just spent the last 25 years in engerland.
I think they call it the Stokholm Syndrome.
Andy Ellis @ 5.06 pm
Beaker @ 5.25 pm
Very well said by both of you , Also we have to remember that a lot of people voted No in 2014 as they were told that Scotland would be out of the EU and look where that’s got us to now .
A lot of people that I know who voted No then would now vote Yes as they want to remain in the EU
I live in one of the highest No voting areas in 2014 and the same area was one of highest areas to vote Remain in 2016 .
Today I had 2 very interesting conversations with different people while waiting in a queue for my shopping and then in a queue for the chemist and because they noticed I was wearing my YES badge that’s what started the conversation and that’s another two people who told me that they now regret voting No in 2014 and they would now be voting YES in the next Indy Ref so get that YES badge on and start the conversation with people.
One thing I always ask people is if they’ve read the McCrone report and if they haven’t I always tell them to go home and google it and another thing to bring into the conversation is Norway’s oil fund and compare it to the Uk’s debt .
Scotland is not Fiji.
Antagonism in political discourse is a good indication of political intent, as it reveals the cultural values that the antagonist is hostility towards. Just saying. 😉
The dialectic relation between the national and the
European constitutional identity in the framework of
European Constitutional Law
http://www.unio.cedu.direito.uminho.pt/Uploads/UNIO%203/UNIO%203%20EN/Francisco%20Balaguer%20Callej%C3%B3n.pdf
sorry….reveals the cultural values that the antagonist has hostility towards.
The International Journal of Human Rights
Volume 22, 2018 – Issue 1: Special Issue: Realising International Human Rights: Scotland on the Global Stage
Identifying routes to remedy for violations of economic, social and cultural rights
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13642987.2017.1390304?src=recsys
You just know when you hear that english accent in Scotland that they are a No Voting Unionist.
Very very few with english accents voted FOR Independence.
Those Unionist english immigrants staying in Scotland see us as a shire north of Carlisle. Just an extension of greater england.
That is why dildo heed Johnston says there is no border between Scotland and engerland.
@Blair Paterson
I don’t understand the problem with EVEL. It just adds an extra committee stage where English MPs can veto laws that don’t affect Scotland. But Scottish MPs can still vote for or against legislation.
My English mates tend to remark that it was only the votes of Scottish Labour MPs in Blair’s day that meant top up tuition fees were introduced for the English, but not for us. EVEL would have let the English MPs vote that down
But since the Scottish MPs get a vote on all legislation, regardless of EVEL, what’s the problem?
Background here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_votes_for_English_laws
(Feeling like CBB with all my links!)
More reading for the discerning tactical voter.
https://www.businessforscotland.com/7700-independence-supporter-mega-poll-57-of-snp-voters-open-to-tactical-voting-on-list/
John 6.31
… I’ve been banging on about this faux grievance for years.
Most simply don’t understand that EVEL laws can only be passed by votes of the the full HoC – as usual. They scream about the unfairness of it all that English members can have a chat about things on their own at a stage of the proceedings but are unable to say why this is so unfair!
Alyn Smith bumping his gums again in the National newspaper, claiming that Plan B is nothing but showboating and chaff, again Smith compares wrongly Scotland with Catalonia, Scotland being a country in its own right for centuries.
Meanwhile Public Health expert Devi Sridhar, who advises the Scottish government, has received vile abuse online, from anti-Scottish unionist trolls, due to advice given to Scotlands FM on the virus that differs from England.
The Caledonian bar in Forfar, caused a twitter storm after posting that it planned to bar SNP voters and members when it opens up next week.
I’m sure they won’t want to be seen dead in that pub now.
John Digsby @ 6.31
We know…we’ve always known… and, it is not our fault if Cameron,Westminster and the British Media are “fooling some of the English Electorate all of the time” into thinking differently about EVEL?
Nevertheless,the problem is the * equality * of each MP, no matter the reasons all MPs are either *equal* or they’re not!
So while EVEL exists the claim that “ALL MPs have equal voting rights in Westminster” is not correct, and we shouldn’t let them make it!
I don’t know who dave and his new mate are trying to kid by punting EVEL as compatible with liberal constitutionalism, especially when Westminster is unwilling to respect international law, such as Treaty law?
The Challenges of Crafting Remedies for
Violations of Socio-economic Rights
https://www.law.utoronto.ca/documents/Roach/challenge_crafting.pdf
@Ian Brotherhood 12.58: I am really the first to comment on the George Kerevan article you posted? It’s an absolute teaker. One of several gems: “Salmond knows that the British state only responds to pressure.”
I don’t think George will be a prospective SNP candidate under the present leadership 🙂
@Lochside, 12.59: still a great post. There should be no problem in requiring a five-year residency qualification (for example) to vote in a referendum but given the ridiculous squeals of “racism” by senior SNP figures because some protesters were at the border telling folk from the south to go back home, a public health message surely in tune with the FM’s pronouncements on Covid, I hae ma doots.
Sensible Dave @ 6.55
Yes…banging on in the same misleading vein Dave,unless you don’t really understand it either?
It’s not a “Chat” though is it, they can do that at the many,many,many bars around the place!
It’s a VETO ….
Tinto Chiel
“I am really the first to comment on the George Kerevan article you posted?” 😉
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-cat-and-all-the-pigeons/comment-page-2/#comment-2545867
In order for EVEL to be compatible with democracy, Scotland would need a similar degree of legal autonomy, which Westminster will never allow. Parliamentary sovereignty is an obsolete legal and political institution, which prevents due ethical process of law in Brexitanian constitutional matters. Scotland will not enjoy the benefits of democracy unless it re-connects with international law.
https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4671&context=penn_law_review
Sorry….THE POWER OF COURTS TO DEMAND A SECOND
LEGISLATIVE LOOK
A COMMON LAW FOR THE AGE OF STATUTES.
@CB,
` you can forget about democracy if you start defining participatory rights by ethnic origin.`
nobody is talking about ethnic origin,
we were discussing citizenship and the right to vote in a national election.
Yes, what is happening to the Palestinians by the Israeli State is horrific and i am sure there are many Israelies and Jews around the world that condemn it.
I said before the 2019 GE Stu should stand in Wishart’s or Smith’s constituency or a marginal Tory’s.
Even if it meant Wishart or Smith didn’t win a seat and neither did Stu, that would probably be a better result than Wishart re-elected and Smith jumping on the Imperial SNP gravy train as Unionist fifth-columnists in what used to be the party of independence.
A bit strange we have quarantine for Spain that has a 10 times higher infection incidence but not for England that seems to have a 17 times higher infection incidence.
@Scot Finlayson
I’m afraid that’s exactly what *some* folk are calling for tho’ Scot. Some definitely are blood and soil nationalists, others are just mugs. Neither is a particularly good look. Scotland =/= Israel or any other country. If we can’t persuade ALL Scots, including new Scots, Anglo-Scots, euro-Scots, asian Scots or anyone else who has done us the compliment of coming here to vote for indy, we probably don’t deserve it.
@Oscar
You’re so full of it. You patently know nothing about me or my views. Stockholm Syndrome my arse: even in Engerlund I supported indy. I can hardly be blamed for the lack of bottle exhibited by my fellow countrymen. Oh…and plenty of English folk in Scotland (including my professionally Yorkshire other half) support indy and will vote for it when “native born” Scots grow a pair and bring about #indyref2.
Brexit denies Scotland due legal process in law, as Brexit can’t be justified through constitutional jurisprudence.
Human Rights Education Project
Comparative Analysis of Selected Case-Law ACHPR, IACHR, ECHR HRC
The Rights to Due Process
What is Due Process
http://www.humanrights.is/en/human-rights-education-project/comparative-analysis-of-selected-case-law-achpr-iachr-echr-hrc/the-rights-to-due-process/what-is-due-process
Cams 7.19; pure done missed that as a comment on Ian B’s post, you Great Enigma 🙂
Ya bass!
Tinto Chiel 🙂
@TC –
If it’s any consolation, I missed it as well.
And there was me thinking my subtlety tended to be brick shaped. 🙂
(2015) 34 (1) Yearbook of European Law (forthcoming) – SUBMITTED COPY
Dealing with Parallel Universes: Antinomies of Sovereignty
and the Protection of National Identity in European Judicial
Discourse
http://epubs.surrey.ac.uk/808487/10/dealing%20with%20parallel%20universes.pdf
@TC –
For those who may have missed it, here it is again.
(I had never heard of this blog before. Someone told me it is funded by RISE but I can’t confirm that.)
Lots of interesting stuff in it – here’s a wee taster:
But that’s really just an aside – the thrust of the piece is (or should be) profoundly disturbing to all Yessers, especially ‘working-class’ SNP voters. Perhaps there are too many unpleasant truths packed into the one article, but that’s hardly good reason to rubber-ear it altogether. And then, of course, some will rubbish it anyway because the author is George Kerevan and, well, reasons…
So it goes.
https://www.conter.co.uk/blog/2020/7/7/snp-at-the-crossroads
@Ian Brotherhood at 8.42pm
Christ, don’t tell em Pike!
Lesley Evans and cohorts will now be busy penning some retrospective complaints procedure for historical seditious broadcasting offences…
@ Ian Brotherhood
I came across George Kerevan’s article yesterday; many of the points in it are also made by Jeggit here : https://randompublicjournal.com/2020/07/08/problem-of-perception/.
I think they are both right, and that we have a problem. Not sure how we deal with it. I definitely don’t like Gordon McIntyre-Kemp’s just-vote-Green solution (I’m simplifying, and possibly doing him an unintentional dis-service).
@Ian B: if George K is right, I found this part of his second last paragraph most alarming. Shades of New Labour triangulation, while taking the base for granted:
“The SNP leadership feels threatened by Salmond’s populist and personalised style of politics lest it undermines their plan for an alliance with the conservative (and politically skittish) upper middle classes and capitalists in Scotland.
@CBB
I’m not defending EVEL. It’s shit for everyone – the English and Scot alike. The former don’t get equivalent representation to the devolved governments (English MPs can’t propose new things for England,just veto) and for everyone else, there’s the chaos of whether any legislation ONLY affects England (which most considered thinkers agree is almost never the case)
But I would say that it seems to have had zero effect on legislation applying to Scotland, most of the so-called English Geand Committees appear to discuss things for literally 2 minutes before they get nodded through. So as a source of legitimate grievance, it seems a bit pointless to bring up (and it comes up regularly here)
All governance in the UK zeems to me to be a hodgepodge of awful compromise. My only concern as it relates to indy is someone going down a properly federal model in the UK with an English Parliament and devo max-like powers. I think that would drag a lot of soft yeses across
Sorry if I seem off or argumentative – I just think that grievance over inconsequential (in practice) issues distracts from the positive case to be made
Tinto Chiel says:
8 July, 2020 at 7:09 pm
@Ian Brotherhood 12.58: I am really the first to comment on the George Kerevan article you posted? It’s an absolute teaker….
I thought it was good too, but couldn’t write a comment which didn’t betray the fear and anger I have that Independence is a vanishing hope.
@Lochside, 12.59: still a great post. There should be no problem in requiring a five-year residency qualification (for example) to vote in a referendum but given the ridiculous squeals of “racism”…
I have a growing feeling that “Senior” SNP figures will be less senior and more “peripheral” figures by the time the SNP ever gets off its arse. The SNP should be counting it’s blessings that it’s only facing a List Party. The devil in me would like to see the likes of Wishart losing his seat to a true Indy believer on a mission, ..and I wouldn’t just stop at poor Pete. All this “internal majority” of wokists??? …. Survivors, there would be few.
I don’t buy the 2021 Holyrood Elections as a plebiscite. I think that’s wishful thinking. To pull that off, you’d need , lead-in, preparation, legal test cases, something with the weight of YES campaign, with all the accordant gathering of momentum timed to peak at the right time. But look at the SNP, and all you see is tumbleweed, and moribund complacency that Nicola’s popularity is proof they’re winning the fight. They should maybe ask how many of those new Sturgeon supporters are actual Unionists who recognise the Union really isn’t in much trouble so long as it’s Nicola driving the bus. By all accounts there are SNP staffers who think precisely that.
I think Nicola simply lacks the cunning. She needs a lot of it, but she hasn’t any.
She forfeited all the initiative with Scotland’s sovereign rejection of Brexit, when we had a watertight argument for a constitutional backstop squandered. Ireland won using its backstop.
She forfeited all the initiative and a free hand to Theresa May when she said she wouldn’t hold a referendum until she “knew the details of Brexit“, whatever that actually meant, giving Theresa a free hand in Brexit, incentive to keep Nicola in the dark about the Brexit details, and squandering the opportunity for Sturgeon to force her way into Brexit negotiations.
She then forfeited even more of the initiative to May with the Section 30 farce. Section 30 is Scotland Act malarkey, not Sturgeon’s doing, but all the guff about the “only” legal route and “gold standard democracy” was simply unnecessary and unedifying.
Personally, I’m close to despair. To think where we stood in late 2014-2015, and where we stand now, is almost like the Ghost of Christmases to Come showing Scrooge of “what’s the worst thing that could possibly happen?” Or put another way, “how can we possibly screw this up?… Oh yeah, I see! that’s how!… But this isn’t a Christmas Carol fantasy, it’s actually happening for real.
The SNP pull the polling figures like a gun whenever they feel threatened, but as I’ve said before too, I reckon the polling is where we would be with a crash test dummy in the driving seat. Boris Johnson and his loonies are the ones driving up support for Indy, not the SNP who want all the credit. Ask the SNP about a plan, an initiative, an aspiration that’s Independence related,… suddenly they’re uncannily like Better Together when challenged to make a positive case for the Union.
I swear too, if I ever hear another poll, or popularity contest, or “who would people most like to see doing what”,… I think my head will explode. Enough of all this “eight out of ten cats (who expressed a preference) preferred Whiskas. It does my nut in. Scottish Independence is a House on fire, and if we don’t act soon there will be nothing left to save.
Maybe the SNP need a wee visit from Scrooge’s ghost… to see an epitaph on a headstone and virtually nobody mourning or bothered about their demise…
kerevan accuses SNP of “bourgeois revisionism”
– was that about it?
John Digsby
I’m glad you’re not looking to defend EVEL, though I’d suggest all Westminster legislation has effect on Scotland, either directly or indirectly.
@Andy Ellis,
`I’m afraid that’s exactly what *some* folk are calling for tho’ Scot.`
who for example,(outside obvious trolls)
i`ve never heard anyone refusing any ehnicity,race,nation,gender,whatever and wherever you come from from becoming a Scottish citizen,
are you saying any country that has a reidency clause before gaining citizenship is a country based on `blood and soil` nationalism,
or is it just Scotland.
EVEL. Yes the English can discuss English matter on their own
But they have no input from Scottish representation in their discussion.
Then if every Scottish representative who can vote decided that the proposals
Were good for England but to the detriment of Scotland they are safe in the knowledge
That they will always be outvoted 10 to 1.
On bills passed in the HoC Scottish representatives influence the outcome on 0.6% of occasions.
So who fancies a democracy where you can control an outcome that will shape your future just once
In every 200 situations?
It’s not for me 100% or any democratic sovereign nation.
Och, quit all the prevarication – If you can prove your main residence has been in Scotland for five years, before any plebiscite election or referendum on independence, then you can vote.
Otherwise, f-off!
Perhaps what Kerevan doesn’t dare countenance openly – and this ties in tacitly with the poll results outlined in this post – is that an explicitly pro-indy party, led by Salmond and 100% guaranteed ‘Woke-free’ could send the SNP into a tailspin.
The uncontested appointment of Kirsten Oswald as WM Deputy Leader looks awfy like pure brassneck, and working-class folk (voters or not) do not take well to outright gallusness.
In relation to the article linked above by Ian Brotherhood – snp at the crossroads. It is interesting that six years of political success has not achieved independence, rather, it has achieved a sneering arrogance at the very top of the party.
We saw it recently, with the frankly pathetic shouts of ;racism’ by the justioce secretary in relation to border protests – protests that would not be necessary if the Scotgov did its job and controlled the border. We have also seen it on too too many occasions from Pete Wishart, who simply refuses to even countenance other routes to independence, or even for one second consider that he just might actually be wrong.
As the abuse of Scotland and its people by the English government and clown English Prime minister continues, people in Scotland are getting angrier. They want action. They want somebody who will stand up to the bullingdon bully and his coterie of murderous fascist liars.
As brexit nears, I fully expect the divergence between what the people of Scotland want, and the seeming uncaring intransigence of the SNP leadership, will only widen.
Iain Blackford will dutifully continue moaning about things once a week, and continue getting laughed at.
I do not doubt the SNP would say they are ‘sticking to their plan’, but that is never a good idea when events are changing so very rapidly. The abuse of Scotland and its people is continuing apace, yet the SNP is thinking only about an election over ten months away. It is like they don’t even care about brexit. It is like they will happily carry on with business, as Boris and his conniving goons literally lock the parliament doors and throw away the key.
The SNP leadership, will merely shrug their shoulders and say, ‘there is nothing we can do.. vote for us in May 2021 and give us another mandate, Boris will for sure not be able to ignore us then’.
It is like they are living in a fantsay, oblivious to the hardship and abuse hurtling down the tracks at full speed towards Scotland and its people. May 2021, is way too late. The US trade deals will be done, suitable
bribes‘fixes’ by US big business will be made to ensure Scotland will be locked in. Scotland will not only be fighting London, but the US government too, in order to get independence.Make no mistake, May 2021 is way, way way too late. We need action now. Oh how I wish we still had a real leader in charge, instead of the flappy-handed, gender-obsessed wokerati we seem to have now.
@CBB
Agreed. EVEL works for noone. The Westminster lot want as much control as possible and won’t give us or the English a decent say over anything. Never confuse the interests of Westminster for the interests of the English either – think all the UK countries are sick to the eye teeth of all of them
Hopefully change is a coming though I’m not sure where from….
@BDTT
I think the Scottish tax code route will be cheaper to police, it’s quite an undertaking to monitor or prove what someone’s main residence is over a five year period. We don’t need a system that will take months to verify every resident and whether they are a legitimate voter.
Definitely 5 year minimum, IMHO, which applies to Westminster, so has president in common law. However, Westminster is reluctant to recognise the common law protection afforded to the rights of those living in Scotland, and the fundamental rights protection afford by the EU.
So I’m not sure if Scots can actually look to the common law to protect their economic, social and cultural rights from the expansionist ambitions of English Torydum. We have no legally defensible identity, according to Westminster, so we are unable to make effective claims to human rights.
Economic, Social and Cultural Rights
https://ijrcenter.org/thematic-research-guides/economic-social-and-cultural-rights-2/
@CBB
Genuinely expect you’d know – is there a legal definition of a Scot that could be used for this kind of thing? Or has WM subsumed the identity into collective ‘Britishness’?
Once again the threat of hammers has me slightly unsure if this is off topic or if the link will work, hoping will lead to clemency.
Been catching up on some of the political commentary from the US in particular Bill Maher an old school liberal. Seems they have a similar problem with the Democrats playing nice and assuming the rest will. He also has and refreshing dislike of the woke left. Perhaps Wings should set up a similar programme challenging both sides. Hope the link works.
@Scot Finlayson
If you think it’s limited to “obvious trolls” I reckon you’re not looking hard enough or just subject to wishful thinking. I’ve seen quite a few opine that since excluding “non native” Scots would result in a Yes majority, they should in fact be excluded. I’m not saying it enjoys any great support, but it’s obviously out there as the preferred route for some.
The issue for supporters of how we achieve indy in the short to medium term isn’t about citizenship: that’s a post indy issue. The discussion now is about who qualifies to vote, and why anyone would think it is either feasible or desirable to set random qualifications for participation other than “those that live here and can vote”. Surely that’s the only starting point for the kind of progressive, inclusive Scotland we want to see?
John Digsby
I don’t think so, I think our identity is assumed to have been subsumed within the British identity. Of course, the same applies to the English identity, but that tends to get what it wants (see Brexit).
Breeks at 0857pm,
I just spotted your post.
This section;
“But look at the SNP, and all you see is tumbleweed, and moribund complacency that Nicola’s popularity is proof they’re winning the fight. They should maybe ask how many of those new Sturgeon supporters are actual Unionists who recognise the Union really isn’t in much trouble so long as it’s Nicola driving the bus. By all accounts there are SNP staffers who think precisely that.”
I think this is a very good point. I actually know at least two people who really like NS, but would NEVER vote for indy, and actually have strong views on it. They see NS as a ‘safe pair of hands’.
I also agree that NS lacks the cunning required to push things forward. She seems to have no fight in her.
Your last two paragraphs sum up exactly how I feel too, especially the urgency in all of this. The SNP right now are like the band playing on, while Titanic sank into the atlantic.
@ Confused (8:57)
I don’t know what ‘bourgeois revisionism’ is but I’m pretty sure Kerevan’s piece merits more than a ten-word dismissal.
P.S. The British identity is largely a creation of Britain’s cultural industries, which traditionally have projected an English perspective, and have gone to great lengths to weave a narrative of English culture as representative of Britain (see “Mother of Parliament”, Robin Hood, Berxit).
@ianb
I am in TL;DR mode at the moment; lockdown has had me reading as much as my student days; I find myself screaming internally : get to the point
– but from what I scanned, I found myself in agreement; kerevan is generally alright in my book
@CBB
I understand and thanks. I think it’s part of the problems the independence movement faces, which is about identity and the realpolitik of how people have been taught to feel. There’s a lot of talk about the way people ought to feel, or what the law really is (including insightful stuff from yourself) but it seems to pale in comparison to the way folk think things are or have to be. I’m not sure how we overcome it, but I wish we were led better so that our leaders at large could show the way
There is nothing in the reserved powers preventing The Scottish Government from creating a register of Scottish citizens, using a mix of birth, decendency, and residency. A five 5 year or 7 year residency requirement would be consistent with European norms while respecting the immigrants who have chosen to make Scotland their home.
This would stop foreign students, British military, temporary workers, non resident holiday home owners, and those just passing through from determining the fate of the Scottish nation.
I’m amazed how citizenship, borders, and asserting sovereignty can be decried as racist by people who allegedly support independence. Why would anyone who thinks that actually want independence anyway?
Can anyone seriously imagine Kwame Nkurah or any of the post war African independence leaders taking to twitter to invite more English people to move to Ghana?
Or Nnamdi Azikiwe coming back to Nigeria from London and saying ” Well lads, we can’t go ahead with it. The English said no, but I feel like they are going to say yes one day, and by the way they are trading our fishing grounds to the Europeans and keeping our oil anyway”.
Liz g 7.07
You are being ridiculous. You well know that there are many issues that Scottish MPs vote on in Westminster where those matters are devolved to Holyrood in Scotland where English representation is zero. That’s not a complaint. That is a statement of fact.
The notion that a chat session by English MPs on English only matters, before the whole House votes – is some dreadful undermining of democracy and the rights of Scots is simply ludicrous.
Keep playing the “grievance” card … it just makes you look silly.
Apologies if posted already. Archive link to Kevin McKenna’s article in the National:
Indy party led by Salmond may be just what the Yes movement needs.
http://archive.vn/8paHe
All those people on here who keep referring to ” blood and soil nationalists ”
You are hypocritical
The present UK right to vote is based on you having british citizenship to vote
You have to live in uk 5 years to get british citizenship
British citizenship gets you a british passport
Scotland doesnt have its own passport so lets just say you cannot vote in a scottish independence referendum unless you would qualify for scottish citizenship using british citizenship rules seeing as we dont have our own scottish citizenship rules
What that means is that
If you were born in scotland and currently live in scotland you automatically get scottish citizenship and the right to vote in a scottish independence referendum
Same if you live in scotland but were not born here but one of your parents was born in scotland
Otherwise ass is the case in uk you have live here in sscotland five years then apply for scottish citizenship
You all live under these rules right now in uk
You dont ever mention this as blood and soil nationalism
And yet when people want to apply the same rules in scotland you call it blood and soul nationalism
No other country in rhe world lets you vote in government elections just because you happen to be living there at the time
And yet…you advocate it for scotland ?
You’ve still not found a respect for John Locke and international law yet, have you Toryboy?
International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
https://link.springer.com/referenceworkentry/10.1007%2F978-1-4020-9160-5_533
@sensible
you didnt reply to my question the other day
in the event of the snp ditching their manifesto in april 2021 holyrood ELECTION, for a simple manifesto stating
“vote snp for an independent scotland”
if they got 50%+ of the vote,
would this result supersede the 2014 referendum result?
Last on to dave, obvs. 🙂
Sorry, my previous onE was to dave, who apparently still can’t bring himself to respect Natural Law, or the principle of universal human rights.
access to justice as a guarantee of economic, social, and cultural rights.
a review of the standards adopted by the inter-american system of human rights
V. The substance of the right to effective judicial protection against violation of social rights
https://www.cidh.oas.org/countryrep/AccesoDESC07eng/Accesodescv.eng.htm
Sensibledave,,,,you are being not sensible
EVEL in a UK parliament that puts english MPs on the westminster committees for scotland affairs ?
Where is englands devolved parliament ?
Where is BBC england ive neever seen it ?
You talk about the english pound , there is a scottish pound too its not all owned by england
EVEL wass introduced to stop SNP teaming up with Labour to stop policies being introduced in england but england is quite happy to have english MPs on committee deciding scottish questions
@ SC – do you mean 50% of the electorate? Or 50% of the voters? It makes a difference.
@sensibledave
Is it not English MP’s that are refusing what the Scots have voted for, in 2015, 2016, 2017, & 2019. Your definition of democracy seem somewhat tenuous, if fact it seem very colonial.
EVEL is breaking the treaty of Union, if England wants an English parliament then set one up. Westminster is not the English parliament, although the people of England seem to believe it is.
I want you to have a parliament devoid of Scots, ASAP.
If removal of stamp duty in England and N Ireland
Means UK Debt levels will continue to rise, I take it
Westminster will suggest Scotland has a share of that debt too.
More affluent England will see an avalanche of claims for this £10
Per head for restaurant bills in August.
Again I can see Scotland being given a share of that debt too.
I also presume that there is a Covid fund that pay for Covid PPE in England
Will that lump on to UK debt?
@capella
there are different types of majority
ie, 2,25 million, is about 50% of the entire electorate.
but no one has ever run a ref or election which counts non voters
(except in the 73 ref and in mugabi’s zimbabwe, both criticised by the un as undemocratic
no, 50% of the votes cast
i noticed he didnt answer again
@ Effijy
‘ I also presume that there is a Covid fund that pay for Covid PPE in England’
England used to be called the sick man of Europe.
Now it is the sick man of the world.
@Davie Oga says:
8 July, 2020 at 10:17 pm
“This would stop foreign students, British military, temporary workers, non resident holiday home owners, and those just passing through from determining the fate of the Scottish nation.”
Most of them cannot legally vote anyway. As for the military, a large proportion of them are Scots. The numbers in Scotland aren’t significant enough anyway to swing the vote one way or other. Military personnel are entitled to vote where they are permanently stationed. There is no way the SNP would prevent them being allowed a vote. The party struggles enough as it is when it comes to defence matters, bar nukes.
Tell you what, go and speak to Keith Brown about your proposal.
Terence 10.57pm
“Where is BBC England…”?
You know I have never thought of that before Terence.
I have always questioned why England is not labelled a Devolved Nation, or what is a “Regional Airport”?
But have never thought of asking, where is BBC England?
Sensible Dave @ 10.35
I’m not playing…
They made this rod for their own back.
Westminster sold this to English voters as English votes for English Laws.
I’m just not arguing with them.
I’m taking them at their word that it is indeed what they say it is.
If they want to correct it …fine
If English voters were to research what it really is …also fine
If the Media want to explain it …I’ve no much problem with that either.
But
While they claim EVEL has been implemented,I’ll claim it unfair,because it would be!
If and when they correct that misapprehension I’ll be suitably shocked at how they’ve lied to England’s voters,these past years!
I’m happy either way … It’s really just some low hanging fruit in my Country’s case for our political emancipation …:-)
Oh and Sensible Dave..
While we’re oan the subject…this veto/chat time that the English MPs have to discuss English matters…they’re doing it on OUR coin.
We don’t pay for them to be acting as English MPs in that parliament we pay them to be UK MPs at all times.
The English voter doesn’t pay for Holyrood or our MSPs that is funded only from Scotland’s Tax Returns.
So it’s fiscally unfair too, like we’ve been sayin for year’s Westminster is utterly useless at this governing stuff 🙂
Westminster is particularly useless at this governing stuff, as Westminster considers itself superiour international law. Westminster articulates English legal culture, which considers itself impervious to outside law.
Remember, Scotland is still connected to the EU’s charter of Fundamental Rights, and national law should not be used to forcefully remove rights protected under international law. Not in a social democracy anyway. So is the Scottish government really going to do nothing to resist Westminster’s institutional racism?
Guide: ESCR Litigation
Chapter 2: ESC rights under international law and the role of judicial and quasi-judicial bodies
2.1 Progress towards a global recognition of the justiciability of ESC rights
https://www.icj.org/chapter-2-esc-rights-under-international-law-and-the-role-of-judicial-and-quasi-judicial-bodies-2/2-1-progress-towards-a-global-recognition-of-the-justiciability-of-esc-rights/
.
Hello jfngw,
You have a gratuitous troll at me for using bold lettering in posts.
The reason I do that is so it is possible to bookmark where a particular post is, then when I get back in from work, I can the speed-scroll past all of the bedroom-dwelling, underwear-clad, jobless-keyboard-warriors and avoid wasting time on the utter drivel that they scribble on here.
By use of bold “bookmark” wording, I can then find where I left off and extend the COURTESY of replying to those decent folk who inhabit the Wings website and contribute positively towards gaining Indoendence for Scotland.
So jfngw or whatever your real name is, you are totally wrong in what you have written.
Instead of trolling people who want Independence, would you not feel better joining your fellow Sturgeonite refugees on James Squeeky Kelly’s website: Scot Goes Plop? You can gather around the water cooler with Kelly’s Klap Klinic Kandidates and join in with their obsessive BTL hobby: slagging off the forensics work of the author of this website in uncovering the Coven of political stooges at the current SNP McWoke High Command. These Witches of Weak Woke who, it has been alleged, consorted to pervert the course of justice and waste police time to get Alex Salmond jailed for a very long time.
More bold letters jfngw: it now transpires that Nicola and her political stooges and sycophants were actually right for once. Alex Salmond is the biggest threat to the British Empire that there has been for ages.
Jfngw, this bold writing is ALSO because I want to be on-topic. This thread is titled: THE CAT AND ALL THE PIGEONS and is the BEST thing to hit the Scottish political scene since IndyRef1 received the Royal Assent.
I respectfully suggest you re-read Stuart Campbell’s article at the top of this page AGAIN.
Because you could learn something. Would you not agree it is better we discuss weighty matter such as a putative YES LIST party headed by Alex Salmond?
Or do you only really do the swinging handbag fish-fights that you and your fellow septic tank dwelling master-baiters seem to favour?
Just
Farrts
Nonsense
Greets and
Whimpers.
Some of you (Al-Stuart?) don’t really understand how Firefox works, iye?
If you have a page open in a tab and read it to the bottom, when you go back to it after being elsewhere, eventually, and reload, it will be sitting where you left off. Just reload…
No need for emboldening.
Jiss trehin’ tae help…
Ian Brotherhood
Thanks for the link to G K’s history of the SNP’s decnine from National Liberation movement into Bourgeois Revisionist Lakeys of the Neoliberal Globalist Elite.
It is sad, but also funny that people who use labels like that were back in the day, almost invariably as rabidly anti-Scottish and anti-Nationalist as George Galloway still is, and put in some sterling work to ensure that Scotland remained firmly in the grip of the British Imperialists, who’s exploits outwith Scotland they resolutely opposed.
That said, every part of it that coincided with my own experience was spot on and I have no reason to believe the rest was anything other than accurate.
P.S. I recently re-joined the SNP after a long absence and looked up the latest version of the party constitution on their website … OUCH ! On the plus side there seems to be plenty of grass-roots activism alive, well, sharpening their pitchforks and outwith the control of the McWokesters.
A quote from the article at the top of this thread:
“Alex Salmond would be, by a very great distance, the second biggest force in the Scottish Parliament, and a large swathe of Unionist dead weight would suddenly be looking for new employment.”
I really like the thought of that. Pure political porn! 🙂
Liz g
So firstly, your fundamental objection to the absolute horror of EVEL … is the cost … and you not wanting to pay for it?
So on that subject, how much does EVEL cost (the English MPS don’t get paid more and the rent on the buildings doesn’t go up!)?
Once you have worked out the cost, and then how much it costs Scotland, then divided by the number of taxpayers in Scotland … how much is it costing you Liz?
A proper Faux grievance Liz.
Jfngw
… you want us to have our own parliament?
What’s it got to do with you?
You really haven’t got the hang of this devolution thing have you.
SC 10.50
It is pointless discussing this further … it isn’t going to happen.
We have referenda to decide serious and rare binary matters. Now I know you are not a fan of referenda as you seek to overturn the democratic outcome of the last two … but it really is the only way that Scots, the UK, Europe and the world … will accept the outcome.
http://archive.fo/z2M24
This was a brilliant read….
Just scroll past all the bollocks from Alyn Smith and go straight to reading the comments from Maria Carnero.
More power to your elbow Maria!
Breeks post at 8:57pm
The only things Breeks doesnt do here is call all the mindless faithful ‘thick c*nts’ or point out how Scotlands upper and middle management seem likely to have been usurped by Common Purpose and answer to an agenda that is not the Scottish peoples.
I knew the West was out of money by the end of April after the biggest stock market crash in human history happened in March.
If the last few days haven’t convinced everyone else that we are utterly utterly bankrupt – nothing will.
Now, it’s ‘don’t go to Spain’ inflicting even more damage on ourselves……for a bloody flu.
It’s like being in the valley of dry bones without an Ezekiel.
In other words………we’re fucked.
Boris wants to “build build build”.
The only thing that will be getting built any time soon will be Job Centres.
Back to Thatcher’s 80s vision of Scotland, where every empty street corner building was converted into something connected to your local Job Centre.
And we still have the Brexit “Boot in the Bawz” to look forward to from January.
It is a well known fact that smaller, self-sustainable Nations come out of a crisis far quicker than skint lumbering giants (like England).
So hopefully my fellow Scots who are a bit slow on Political uptakes, have their on lightbulb moment and FINALLY realise the best way forward for Scotland, is becoming an Independent Nation.
Scotland has to start being more radical, all the english politicians can say is our nation, our country, don’t they understand, it’s four countries, four nations shortly to be three nations because Scotland are leaving we’re dissolving the partnership we’re going our own way but when we do you can keep your unionist lackies that have been working for you against their own country, the bbc so called journalists, jackass and his pals etc etc etc they could maybe move to Wales or Northern Ireland and start a new career there and could still work for their colonial master.
Rm
“maybe move to Wales or Northern Ireland”
As long as they are sat on the inner tubes of old tractor tyres and cast adrift in the Irish Sea to let the winds and the tides decide their fate.
Their new hosts be it Wales, NI, the Faroe Islands, England, Greenland, etc – Could call them “The Scottish Boak People”!
Sensible Dave @ 7.05
Nope….that was a ” while we’re on the subject ” note Dave….
That’s why I said “and while we’re oan the subject”.
My principle objection is the inequality of the MPs because of this arrangement!
It is indefensible Dave…
And don’t tell me I don’t understand how it works.
That wee bit of inequality today is the thin edge of the wedge for tomorrow.
What more manufactured reasons found will enable more right’s be eroded from my MP should this rancid “so called” Union survive?
Having only English MPs vote on English laws is indeed desirable ( nae argument there ) and only Scottish *MPs* vote on Scottish Laws is certainly clearly just.
Having them do this in their Own Parliaments an elegant solution to such just law making….don’t you think ?
Or are you seriously going to support murky little meetings pretending not to be vetos, portrayed to an incurious English electorate as a special form of devolution just for them!
My my when ye think of the lengths that Westminster will go to, to cling to the Scots! Do ye think history will judge it a comedy or a tragedy Dave?
A supporter of Scotland’s political struggle against English imperialism was the late Mu’ammar al-Qadhafi of Libya. In an interview to a Sunday Times journalist he is said to have remarked that “the English treat the Scots like Bedouin” ie with racist contempt, of Bedouin heritage himself he knew the full implications of that.
Aspects of his régime were certainly brutal, he did not tolerate Islamist fanatics, but being ‘his own man’ the West pumped out considerable negative propaganda about him, particularly with regard to his alleged sexual proclivities. Funny how sex is so often used to defame, is it not? Casement, Gandhi, Salmond…
Not a few in fractioned, war torn Libya miss him.
https://www.africanexponent.com/post/ten-reasons-libya-under-gaddafi-was-a-great-place-to-live-2746
His blood and that of thousands of Libyans is on the heads of American, British and French ‘liberators’.
Liz G 8.56
.. its hard for me to take seriously your comments about inequality of MPs. I am happy that via democratic process, Scotland now has devolved powers and can make law relevant to Scotland to which English MPs have no input.
Similarly, I am quite happy that via a democratic process, some matters that pertain to England only have an extra “session” where English MPs discuss things between themselves but still requiring a full vote by the HoC to pass new laws.
How is that some dreadful undermining of the rights of Scottish MPs FFs!
It is the only bit of devolution that the ENglish have, we are happy with it. You apparently are not.
Just so we can get some perspective on this Liz, could you cite some cases where EVEL has produced an outcome that the full HoC has not voted for?
@Andy Ellis
All i am looking for is a discussion,debate,conversation,dialogue about non citizens voting in a national election or referendum,
without someone derailing or trying to close down the discussion,debate,conversation,dialogue with accusations of supporting Nazi ideology,
you say,
`why anyone would think it is either feasible or desirable to set random qualifications for participation other than “those that live here and can vote”. Surely that’s the only starting point for the kind of progressive, inclusive Scotland we want to see?`
can you name one country in the world that has a `those who live here can vote` system in voting in a national election or refererendum,
i understand you want the world to be progressive and inclusive , nothing wrong with that,but it ain`t today and it won`t be soon.
Scot Finlayson. Good luck with that Scot. Too many trolls on here.
https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2020/03/07/an-snp-in-disarray/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Excellent article by the grouse beater about the rudderless SNP
I agree with nearly all of it, but, it’s not the ship that’s faulty, it’s the fucking captain sailing it in the wrong direction!
Just watched a positive report of Scottish independence on Al Jazeera.
Worth a look
Breeks says: at 7:24 am
“This was a brilliant read….
Just scroll past all the bollocks from Alyn Smith”
I couldn’t resist the temptation…
“I won Stirling, the most heartland of heartland seats, from the Tories … If we don’t persuade seats like Stirling to vote Yes, we won’t win.”
Erm … His Tory predecessor had a 150 majority over the SNP and prior to Steve Paterson winning it for the SNP, the previous four elections had been won by Labour.
Yep … Sounds like bollocks to me too.
@Breeks 7:24
Just scroll past all the bollocks from Alyn Smith and go straight to reading the comments from Maria Carnero.
How does one get to comments? (The link below does not respond.)
vlad (not that one)
Breek’s link was via archive, to read the comments you have to locate the live link.
Unfortunately “The National” only lets non “digital subscribers” read the headline and a snippet of the article, once you have exceeded your weekly freebie quota.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18567476.alyn-smith-plan-b-talk-showboating-chaff-hard-deliver/
vlad (not that one) says
If the paywall locks you out, you can try a Bruce’s Spider Attack – delete cookies and try again.
Sensible Dave @ 9.14
I thought you said you understood EVEL?
Any potential ” outcome ” is vetoed before it gets to the full house.
In that wee “Chat” you’ve now upgraded to a “session” !
That the English are happy with their wee bit of pretendy Devolution oan the cheep is their issue,I can’t answer for their standards,but I can and I will object to my representatives remit being ” lesser” than theirs. No matter by how much, because they had a grievance over their lack of Devolution.
I come from a tradition that demands at the very least, expansion of Devolution,am I to believe that an English voter would not wish the same. Therefore it’s fair to say that the restrictions on my MP will also increase,is it no?
So no Sir….while this rancid Union survives,I’ll not see the UK Parliament co-opted for English only use.
This was not the arrangements in 1706 and not the offer pre the 18th September 2014.
That the Westminster Parliament is a parliament offering more of its services to England than to my own Country,is as I have said indefensible!
Brian doonthetoon 9.12 pm.
‘Och, quit all the prevarication- if you can prove your main residence has been in Scotland for 5 years,before any plebiscite election or referendum on independence, then you can vote. Otherwise F-off ‘.
I’m completely on board with that, anything else is utter insanity.
@Al Stuart
You seem to have an ego problem, why else would you post a whole comment in bold. Just let the vitriol out, it will help with your anger management, looks like deranged rantings to me though.
Agree with previous posters.
If you are 16 or older, and have lived in Scotland for 5 years, you get to vote.
No more happy-clappy shite.
@Col.Blimp IV 10:00
Thanks. I thought it might be something like that.
However, when I open the article on National’s own page, the “comments button” is not there.
Ooft!
“Can’t walk and chew gum at the same time” says a caller to Kaye as he berates the ‘Scottish executive’ and the FM on the decision not to allow travel to Spain unless folk quarantine.
He’s off on holiday to (didn’t catch the place name) where last week 1500 corona cases were reported near a slaughter house and he says “I feel safer there than in Scotland” 🙂
Nowt so strange as folk… folks. 🙂
The other calls I heard in the 15 minutes while in the car were generally positive to the Spain decision and for wearing face coverings too.
PS:
A boost for the Union says the ‘Scottish’ Daily Mail. on the budget.
@Any Ellis, Scot Finlayson and others,
Thanks for the discussion on who “qualifies” to vote. It’s a topic that’s been sitting there in the shadows and it’s way past time to shine some sunlight on it so everybody’s on the same page – at least in spirit.
Heard a rumour that UK gov pondering bringing over 3m folk from Hong Kong. Im all for it. But – if they are sly they will make sure as large a portion go to Scotland as possible. They would very grateful to a united GB. Its not likely to happen but if it did and Scotland stuck with the pure civnat line it would be curtains for independence
@Sharny Dubs 09:27
Scotland has many friends and sympathisers and not always in the places you might expect. I often fancy that an iScotland could contribute to the enrichment of the large pool of non aligned states if it freed itself from the conventional.
Sadly, places in the anglophone world where Scots settled are the least productive, the most ‘loyalist’, often the case with ‘expat’ and immigrant communities.
I was going to copy and paste Maria Carnero’s comments from The National for the benefit of people who don’t have a subscription. But there are quite a number of them and replies from Michael Lloyd. So it’s a conversation and too lengthy to post here.
if you can’t get a free read, even after clearing out cookies, then you could take out a subscription. They were offering few months a £2 per month recently.
Or, Breeks does a regular comment along the same lines here. To summarise, we have the sovereign right to declare ourselves independent why don’t the SNP go ahead and arrange it now.
Sensibledave says:
9 July, 2020 at 7:15 am
SC 10.50
It is pointless discussing this further … it isn’t going to happen.
We have referenda to decide serious and rare binary matters. Now I know you are not a fan of referenda as you seek to overturn the democratic outcome of the last two … but it really is the only way that Scots, the UK, Europe and the world … will accept the outcome
——————
actually no, referenda are not the only recognised route to independence. it is my prefered route but since the english refuse to allow a referendum then we must take a different route
ie, an election
i noticed you still avoid the question
if 50%+ voters back indy in the ELECTION, will this result supersede that of 2014?
To stay in a country for five years is not enough reason to be able to vote in the future of an ancient country like Scotland, if you haven’t been born here you can become a Scottish National otherwise you’ve stayed in Scotland for five years working you have your vote, the work dries up then you might leave go to another country to work and then you start voting there, this has really to be thought through, no other country in the world would allow this to happen so why should Scotland,Westminster want an upper hand before it begins.
George Kerevans article makes interesting reading. Sad what has become of the SNP.Tartan Tories right enough.
The Sturgeon trolls aren’t impressed.
A lot of discussion on this thread regarding EVEL. EVEL is merely an add-on to the time-honoured convention of the Northern Irish, Scottish and Welsh Grand Committees.
Prior to devolution, these Grand Committees allowed the Northern Irish, Scottish and Welsh MPs to debate issues which affected their own parts of the UK and try to form a consensus on these issues. In the end, the final decision still rested with the whole House of Commons. This is still the case with EVEL matters.
The Scottish Grand Committee, (SGC) still exists – in theory – but, very rarely sits these days, still devolution and the formation of Holyrood has made it largely redundant.
Sadly, the in-built English majority in the HoC would still, even if the SNP was to make greater use of the Scottish Grand Committee, affect the final vote.
I honestly believe they should be making greater use of the SGC and their massive majority on it – to debate every HoC bill which affects Scotland. If any bill effects “Barnett Consequentials,” then the SGC should sit to have its say on the matter. Defence bills – which effect Scotland, the SGC should have its say, and so on.
Using the SGC would, I am sure, fairly-quickly upset the Tories no end and would to a degree disrupt HoC business, to the end, they would soon be asking – do we really need to keep these disruptive Jocks down here.
And, when, as would surely happen, decisions of the SGC were overturned by the in-built English majority, more and more Scots would be asking: Why are we being ruled by a party with very-little support up here.
As I have been urging on these threads for years – we can surely use HoC rules against the Unionists to really piss them off until they cannot wait to be shot of us.
Ottomanboi 9:00 am
You wrote :
“A supporter of Scotland’s political struggle against English imperialism was the late Mu’ammar al-Qadhafi of Libya.”
and …
“Aspects of his régime were certainly brutal”
and …
“but being ‘his own man’ the West pumped out considerable negative propaganda about him”
…. as we all know, he was a really nice chap. A little “firm” sometimes, but on balance a good egg? Events like Yvonne Fletcher and Locherbie as well as the potential genocide of all of those trapped on the coast of Libya before “the west” intervened … demonstrate just how nice a chap he was and why we should hang on to his every word with respect to his views on Scottish Independence!
Give me a break. Are you really that desparate???
I despair.
O.T. Hi, anyone, on iphone O2 no age restriction on account. Was able to access archive sites, now all i get is ‘the server cannot be found’.
Checked with justdownforme website, yesterday said down for everyone but obviously others are able to access as they are posting archived links. Today says website reachable, still get no access. Any suggestions?
@ Bob W just archived an article from The National with no problem.
A letter from an A Anderson which was mentioned as a good explanation of how to use your vote at the next Holyrood election.
It’s neither undemocratic nor unfair for me to vote rationally
http://archive.fo/BRHbO
@Juteman
So your plan disenfranchises me (born in Scotland, spent half my life here and half in England, moved back in 2018) and my English wife both of whom plan to vote “Yes”?
That’s some plan….!
SC
You wrote “if 50%+ voters back indy in the ELECTION, will this result supersede that of 2014?
Its a hypothetical question because Ms Sturgeon would never take that risk.
The Holyrood election isnt about Independence … unless the SNP clearly state in advance that it is. If they do that then that will becme the single topic of the campaigns … Project Fear 2 will “kick in” in all of its glory.
The 10% floaters in the middle will inevitably err towards caution because of the huge “events” being experienced (economic depression, unemployment, oil prices, borrowing, CV19, Brexit, Currency, Salmond v Sturgeon, etc, etc) and your proxy referendu will, IMHO, be lost … meaning that the chance of running indy 2 will be lost for another 5 to 10 years.
To “sum up”, EVery Independence candidate will be asked every day, by every reporter “If Indpendence suporting parties do not receive 50% of the popular vote, will you commit your party to dropping the subject for a generation”? … or something along those lines.
Again, IMHO, Ms Sturgeon will not take the risk of blowing the chance of indy ref 2 in say 2021 by having a “dive” at it via the Holyrood Election next year.
I totally understand that you want Independence as soon as possible and I wish you luck in your endeavours. However, Indpendence is the goal … not just trying to get Independence, failing and blowing the opportunity. Pick your fights and the timing of the fights to give yourself the best chance would be my advice.
But nothing is absolutely certain is it. Even I was wrong once …. I thought I was wrong on something for a moment … but it turned out I was right all along.
Thanks Capella, cleared all website data, still unable to access. 🙁
Socrates MacSporran 11.25
…. Thank you.
Maybe the numpties will “get it” in the end … but I doubt it. It suits them to screetch about their perceived faux grievances.
@ Bob W – I use archive.fo they have changed their URL recently. Maybe you are still linking to arhve.is? BDTT uses a different archive site. He posted the link in the last thread. Might work better.
Here’s an article on Craig Murray on the independence issue being a matter of international law not domestic law.
http://archive.fo/5B8HK
Oops – I’ve just checked and archive.is also now works! Sorry.
Problem fixed. Set Airplane mode on for a few seconds, then switched off again, Witchcraft!
@Sensibledave
Indyref2 in 2021 is vanishingly unlikely to happen tho’! Those of us in the Yes movement who are frustrated with the SNP’s stance have been pointing out ad nauseam that there is no way on earth British nationalists are just going to agree to because Nicola scores yet another mandate. The Pete Wishart gambit that yoons will somehow be overtaken with an attack of reasonableness if we have just one more mandate and be obliged to cave in to our demands is risible.
I share the scepticism that the SNP has the balls to call HR2021 elections plebiscitary, but it’s the only chance of delivering indy in the short to medium term. If the SNP and broader Yes movement fail to grasp that nettle, we may as well all resign ourselves to “once in a generation” becoming a reality, because a tacit acceptance by Sturgeon and her ilk that we need consent and a “Gold Standard” agreed referendum means we can kiss it goodbye until 2029 at the earliest.
Great 🙂
@Capella
I couldn’t access any archive sites.
Spoke too soon, only works for one access then nada. 🙁
My networking skills are limited. Since the sites themselves are working it can only be something in your settings. Why would it only be archive sites? Any network gurus out there?
A reboot is always an option of course.
I think all this definition of who is entitled to a vote stems from SNP spokespersons’ time honoured stock response to the oft posed:
Question – So just who exactly is a “Scot” [unspoken sub text] (You bunch of xenophobic, narrow nationalist, racist bastards)?
Answer – Anyone who’s home is in Scotland, regardless of their National or ethnic origin.
Thus what was intended as an explanation of who would be entitled to claim Scottish citizenship, in the hypothetical eventuality of Scotland becoming independent.
Has transmogrified into a definition of who should be entitled to decide whether Scotland should become independent or not.
Wokies and Unionists are unanimously in favour of the notion that there can be no other way … The rest of us should give the matter some consideration, if for no other reason than, the SNP’s “come all ye'” immigration philosophy must inevitably result in ethnic Scots eventually becoming a minority in their own land.
P.S. I am not ethnically Scottish.
My smart phone often drops the internet link for some reason, perhaps to force me to use the mobile network and upgrade to more GB of data downloads. But a restart gets the wifi back up again.
Rm says:
9 July, 2020 at 11:20 am
To stay in a country for five years is not enough reason to be able to vote in the future of an ancient country like Scotland
Staying in a country for 5 years as a precurser to citizenship is an international norm.
The overwhelming majority of countries have a mix of birthright and naturalised citizens. Whether Scotland is ancient or not is irrevelant. Everywhere is ancient in one sense or another. The fact is that all around the world, non citizens do not vote in national elections and constitutional referendums. But Scotland is different.
All around the world postal voting is not used for national elections because it is open to fraud and manipulation. But Scotland is different again. On top of that the party of independence is one of the biggest proponents of this policy and persists in entrusting the entire process to a company with deep links to the British State and security apparatus.
Surely these policies are contrary to the interest of the emerging Scottish state.
Yet if you challenge these exceptionalisms there is a queue of alleged independence supporters who will denounce you as a hate criminal. Politicians as well.
How did the poltical movement for independence allow itself to develop into something whereby international norms are decried as racist?
Restrict voting to resident citizens – racist
Even hint at the fact that people who illegally enter the country should be detained and removed to their country of origin – racist
Comically inept, student politicky rubbish if it weren’t so inimicle to the achievement of statehood.
I’m not much interested in racial purity. We can be fervent Scots and every colour of the rainbow, as far as I am concerned.
What I don’t much care for is Anglicisation and the hegemony of Westminster – including those of our own who, once down there, have gone native.
There is a border between Scotland and England and it’s not just that stripe across the map.
Re: Tartan Tories.
I used to think it was a mythical Scottish Labour Party slogan.
But the more I read the words of the stuck up snobs of the dyed in the wool Sturgeon supporters on here, the more I am convinced they actually exist.
Capella and her core crew who inhabit Wings are a perfect example of what an old snobby Tartan Tory outfit is like.
So it is no myth.
The Tartan Tories are alive and kicking right here on Wings.
Their only problem is that they have to share the same air with us insignificant lowlifes.
They probably stay in the Morningside/Kelvinside areas of Edinburgh and Glasgow.
So the next time somebody tells you the Tartan Tories don’t exist, tell them to visit Wings Over Scotland, the place is full of them.
Sensible Dave @ 11.54
Do you make any attempt to explain to them that the grievance over that lack of Devolution in England was not addressed by that order in council and the EVEL arrangements were a sop to them because Westminster fear having to deal with a directly elected English parliament ?
Socrates Me Sporran @ 11.25
Nae argument there,in fact now would be a perfect time to start making full use of the Westminster procedures to our advantage.
They were apparently worried about how much disruption such a large SNP contingent could cause back in 2015.
It’s well past time they found out!
Hey Capella…you be Morningside and I’ll be Kelvinside 🙂
Liz
You wrote “Do you make any attempt to explain to them that the grievance over that lack of Devolution in England was not addressed by that order in council and the EVEL arrangements were a sop to them because Westminster fear having to deal with a directly elected English parliament ?”
Who is the “them”? There is no groundswell of opinion for an ENglish only Parliament.
I note that you may have finally given up on the “EVEL oppresses Scotland” rubbish.
@Bob W
Re: archive sites.
If you have recently started using Cloudflare’s 1.1.1.1 DNS Resolver or App – you won’t be able to access those archive sites.
It’s an historic animosity and there is no workaround, except to use a different DNS resolver /Disable app temporarily.
@Davie Oga
Sounds like tendentious nonsense to me.
Define what a Scottish citizen is for us then Dave and explain how that is organised and implemented before any upcoming indyref. The reason those of us who are unconvinced those seeking to limit the franchise aren’t (for the most part) doing so because they are bllod and soil types, is that (surprise, surprise!) most of them end up being raging extremists, Anglophobes and xenophobic bigots.
Whether Scotland becomes independent or not should be decided by all those entitled to vote resident in Scotland. Once Scotland becomes independent, citizenship will be decided like it is everywhere else. The 2014 plan remains the most sensible one: we’re all in by dint of being resident. Anyone arriving after indy has to naturalise like they would in any country, but those with Scots parents or grandparents would have a right to a Scottish passport, just like the Irish model.
It’s really not rocket science. We need immigration because we have an ageing population and birth rates aren’t replacing deaths. We’re not going to be swamped, we’re not going to lose our culture.
It’s not sophomoric student politics to encourage necessary immigration, or to offer sanctuary to refugees and asylum seekers. I wish you luck selling the kind of exclusivist Scotland you envisage, because I and many others won’t be buying in to it!
Sensibledave 11:29
Plainly you’ve swallowed American propaganda about Qadhafi, Al Assad, Nasser and every other Arab leader they have fail to manipulate. Saddam Hussein was a great guy when engaged in proxy war with Iran, a murdering villain when less obliging. The Americans helped to get rid of the shah in Iran when he too stopped being manipulable, successors likewise.
I shall not go on about the Brits in India and East Africa or the Americans in Vietnam and Cambodia, would not wish to soil the names of such august defenders of human rights.
Like all westerners you cherry pick from others trees, oblivious to the rotten fruit on your own.
Desperate? you mean like the ‘no mates’ British state?
Andy Ellis
I think “born in” trumps all in most places.
In Italy all you need, is to have an ancestor who was born there after 186 and if nobody in between them and you has formally renounced their citizenship.
You need never have been there, even for a weeks holiday to acquire citizenship.
1861
Ottomanboi
You wrote “Plainly you’ve swallowed American propaganda about Qadhafi”
…. oh .. so Yvonne Fletcher was shot by the FBI and, do tell, which US department was responsible for Locherbie? What were Qadhafi’s troops going to do to those folk trapped in Benghazi? Have a chat and win them over with charm?
As an aside, may I say how loverly you look in your tinfoil hat.
Put most simply, Scotland is up shite creek because folk are determined to put politics above the law. The FM even appears to think her judgement superior to the jurisprudence of international law. She also appears to think her self competent to determine when Scots are allowed access to democracy.
The SNP needs new leadership and a new legal orientation, or be honest about being a private club for fans of narrow minded and anti-democratic parochialism.
Using Human Rights Law to Inform Due Process
and Equal Protection Analyses
https://scholarship.law.uc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1168&context=fac_pubs
https://twitter.com/ScotiaIndyref2/status/1281169880469975043
Hmmmm… picked up from the Friends of Wings Twitter.
Seems neither Leslie Evans or MacKinnon (is that Judith MacKinnon I think), have been asked to submit written evidence to the Inquiry over the Salmond fiasco.
I might be rushing in like a fool where angels fear to tread, but isn’t the whole point of the inquiry to examine all the evidence, especially from those who are central to the alleged shenanigans?
Ottomanboi
I have no way of knowing for sure what conditions were like for refugees in Libya before Qaddafi’s overthrow, but for that fud to suggest they were much worse than they are now is mind-boggling not to mention the floating graveyard that was once the Mediterranean Sea.
When you going to write your view on the current court proceedings on legislative competence currently in the court of session brought by Martin J Keatings?
Liz g
The wee gallery player.
The wee pest
The wee bean
https://archive.org/index.php
Click on “Web” at top left, then paste the url of the page you want to archive in the
“Save Page Now
Capture a web page as it appears now for use as a trusted citation in the future.”
text box then click on “Save”.
Liz g
Kelvinside is in Glasgow
You wouldn’t know Glasgow if it hit you on the face
Stop trying to make out you are if some importance.
You are a wee fuckin pest
End of
LizG,
I think you have managed to hold the mirror up to the trolls.
Nice One.
Most are “only here for the banter”. CTF
It must be lonely sitting in the barrack on ones own, one daftie’s shift finishes, another daftie comes along.
Without recourse to the rule-of-law, Scotland is going nowhere fast. I don’t mean we secure our constitutional sovereignty through legal action alone. I’m simply suggesting it might help the party of independence to look to legal reason outwith British constitutional dogma and tradition.
The Rise of Judicially Enforced Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights–Refocusing Perspectives
https://digitalcommons.law.seattleu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1616&context=sjsj
Sensible Dave @ 12.54
Not a chance Dave….EVEL is low hanging fruit to be sure,but as you demonstrate by your inability to justify it,it’s not a good advert for a so called equal Union and I’m not going to stop pointing that out…even when you fail to answer any basic questions on it
Gary 45% @ 1.41
Thanks 🙂 Wish it was a bit more challenging though, ye know somebody with an actual argument…
“When you going to write your view on the current court proceedings on legislative competence currently in the court of session brought by Martin J Keatings?”
When anything happens.
@Col Blimp IV
Indeed it does. The last census (2011) found 83% of Scots were native born, 9% in England, 1% Wales & NI.
7% (369,000) of population on census day were not UK born, and 55% of them had arrived since 2004. 15% of those born outside UK were Polish, 6% Indian.
84% described themselves as “White:Scottish”, 8% “White: other British”, 8% minority ethnic & White: non-British (4% each). Asians made up the largest single non-White group (3%).
Minority ethnic groups represented 12% of Glasgow’s population, 8% in both Edinburgh and Aberdeen and 6% in Dundee.
62% of the population described their identity as Scottish only, 18% as both Scottish and British, British only 8%, others 4%
http://www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk/ethnicity-identity-language-and-religion#:~:text=Of%20the%207%25%20(369%2C000),between%202004%20and%20March%202011.
Mark Fletcher 12.36pm. I’m nearly 40yrs in england Mark, still got my accent as the day i left home. And i have’nt gone native. Yeah sadly most Scots down here probably have. I think its got to do with the cringe, a desire to fit in.
@ Liz g – I regret I live in a much snobbier location than Morningside, which would be slumming it. But I do graciously visit these humble pages and dispense largesse to the troll infested denizens. Free, gratis and for nothing.
🙂
As my butler was saying only yesterday, “Is it not time for another cultural revolution, madam? The Wokerati are a spent force.”
I have ordered the footman to summon the peasants to return to the fields. They have had too much time on their hands lately. Their thoughts are turning to sedition.
@ Capella and Liz g
I always suspected there was an “aw fur coat and nae knickers” tinge on this site! 🙂
@sensible
if 50%+ voters back indy in the ELECTION, will this result supersede that of 2014?
———————–
every question pertaining to future events is hypothetical but you still didnt answer the question, would a result like that supersede that of 2014?
@ Andy Ellis – impertinent serf!
Capella
One has to try 🙂
Andy Ellis….why Ive never been so insulted on this site it’s almost enough to drive one back to the P&J 🙂
@ Liz g – Andy Ellis – My knickers are of the finest quality. But I’ve had the maid mothball my musquash on account of the dastardly Animal Rights brigade. It took days to get rid of the green paint.
Tartan Tories out in Force.
Lol
Right enough
They are all fur coat and nae knickers.
Capella, get a grip of your little shower.
Hmmm!
Big Auntie BBC going ahead to make people over 75 yrs to start paying for a licence except for those on pension credit.
About 1.5 million on pension credit and about 3 million will have to start paying from August 2020.
BBC says it’s costing them £35m a month:
i notice the demand to turn the holyrood election into an “independence plebicite” is beginning to trend on twitter 🙂
That National article on Craig Murray has a link to his talk on Independence to the Pensioners for independence.
https://pensionersforindependence.scot/2020/07/04/a-way-forward-to-independence/
Sensibledave says:
9 July, 2020 at 11:51 am
“But nothing is absolutely certain is it. Even I was wrong once …. I thought I was wrong on something for a moment … but it turned out I was right all along.”
—————————————————————–
Sometimes you can be quite amusing Dave
but you’re still a prick 🙂
Liz g
Do you talk to your wife like that?
Gary45%
… once again, you’ve got it all wrong.
We are not on our own … there are 15 of us on shift at any one time. Each of us is running with at least 15 different identitities on at least 10 sites simultaneously.
We are targeted at one comment every two minutes which means that in an 8 hour shift we average 240 comments each. That’s 3600 comments from the lads every shift … over 10,000 comments per day!
Do not underestimate us.
1. Tory Government … done
2. Brexit … done
3. SNP Split … done
4. Scottish Indy … Undone
5. Labour Red Wall … pile of bricks
6. Lib Dems … just enough to fill a phone box
7. EU … falling apart slowly
8. Scottish Footy … up the swany!
@SC
Interesting isn’t it? Lumpen SNP loyalists and hard of thinking bloviators like Peter A Bell have been rubbishing plebiscitary elections like their political lives depended on it (probably because they do!), yet it’s making traction with voters because they can see it’s common sense, and probably the only way we’re going to get a “Yes” to indy this decade.
For our sins, we’re stuck with a party trying to sell us the “just one more mandate” line like the waiter feeding Mr Creosote just one more wafer thin mint in Python’s “The Meaning of Life”. The monomaniacal insistence on the Gold Standard indyref as the sole route, and the magical thinking that yoons will be obliged to cave in when the indy Mr Creosote explodes with just another wafer thin mandate, is beyond depressing.
Talkabout having an English Parliament the number of MPs for each country means we all ready have one who could describe it as an equal Union even if all the Celtic nations voted the same way the Anglo Saxon country can stil outvote them all Democrasy Westminster style I mean if all the nations had the same number. Of MPs say 10 each the celts would have 30 the Anglo Saxons ten and the anglo Saxons would point out how unfair that was
Sensibledave @ 11.29am
I despair that anyone is still naive enough to think that Gaddafi “did” Lockerbie!
This was from Chris McEleny in yesterday’s National where he’s calling for Nicola to agree to a cross-party manifesto pledge on independence with all the other Independence supporting parties so we’ll have to wait and see if she’ll commit to it ,
http://archive.vn/4VbYZ
It’s a better read than the column from Alyn Smith who’s now happy to pick up a wage from Westminster instead of Europe after being parachuted into the seat in Stirling and very heavily supported by the party with all the YSI and the Out For Indy groups out campaigning for him when other candidates hardly saw any support at all .
You also have to remember that he’s the Snp’s Policy convenor on their National Executive Committee but he’s not doing much to push for Independence at all , it’s all wait and and see until the numbers to go up but they’ve done bu*ger all to get the numbers up and have wasted so much time since the brexit vote in 2016 .
@Andy Ellis 11.50AM.
Whats more important, you getting to vote, or the vote being a Yes for Indy?
Sensibledave.
As I wrote your approach is so western. Qadhafi wanted a self-reliant and independent Libya free of neo colonial interference. Definitely a no no for the mostly anglo-saxon power political ends. In some respects rather like the problems Kwame Nkrumah had.
I am no apologist for the mid east dictator type but evil incarnate that type is not. However, the west likes compliance from it ‘towelheads’ and is handy with sanctions so little surprise the type develops sharp teeth eg Nasr and Suez. Pre ‘liberation’ Libya was a major regional employer, not now, just mess. Not in your backyard though, how sweet!
Colonel Blimp IV 13:19
Qadhafi was once the poster boy for many Africans. He resisted the old colonial powers, had charisma and was actively into ‘eco’ in energy and agriculture while others were just thinking about it. He did not deserve his savage death.
As was the case with Mugabe the liberator of Zimbabwe, the early years were better than the later.
Power held too long brings hubris and conceit.
As in the Roman triumphs they require someone to whisper memento mori, remember thou art mortal.
@Juteman
Both are important. I can see no earthly reason why either me or my wife should be deprived of a say because we haven’t lived here for the random period some nativist nutter feels is appropriate. When I lived in England I was used to arguing with Scots unionists and Anglo-Scots who insisted they should have a vote, even tho’ they didn’t live in Scotland.
A Yes vote for indy based on excluding anyone who doesn’t meet some “native born” or “must have lived here X years” criteria isn’t launching the early days of a better nation I’d be interested in supporting.
@Andy
Aren’t you putting the cart before the horse we can’t have the nation you’d be interested in supporting until we take the nation back, only then can we build that better nation
British constitutionalism really should come with a health warning, as it articulates legal pseudo-science, with all sorts of unintended moral, legal, and societal consequences. Most of these are harmful to Scotland, and impair Scotland’s capacity to deal with covid-19.
British nationalist tradition means this is all neatly swept under the rug by Westminster, and a state of elected dictatorship is allowed to further erode the the principles of liberal constitutionalism (see Brexit).
Remember, liberty and bio-neurological individuality can be considered property of the individual.
Process and Property in Constitutional Theory
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/216935209.pdf
@Graeme
No, I don’t think so. I want those resident here to decide the matter. The kind of Scotland that excludes people who were able to participate in 2014, or some other groups they’ve decided don’t “belong” or shouldn’t have a say because they’re somehow not qualified, isn’t one I’d want to be part of thanks very much.
Civic nationalism means more than asserting we’re progressive and not like the nasty nats in Hungary, Poland, Russia and elsewhere. We need to walk the walk too.
@ Ian Brotherhood thanks for that link I have only just got round to accessing it , the more you think about it and dissect it aligned with my experience and age it appears bang on , it is depressing and frustrating in the extreme that we ARE still being played for fools
Ottomanboi
I never bought into the demonisation of Qaddafi or any other allegedly “Mad” anti-colonialist, not even Muhammad Ahmad, despite the best efforts of Corporal Jones and others.
Though I always felt that it was Joshua Nkomo and ZAPU/ZIPRA who did most of the heavy lifting in Zimbawe’s Independence Struggle but I may have been influenced by a mildly racist former resident of Southern Rhodesia uncle who had a particularly low opinion of Mugabee and everyone else in his tribe.
twathater
Assuming a lot of what Kerevan said is true.
In the event of the impostor and wokester SNP leadership being outmaneuvered into delivering Independence, ‘sooner’ rather than later if ever.
Due to the actions of others, arousing the passions of the angry villagers and restless natives of the wider Independence Movement.
We would be well advised to remember these words from the late Joshua Nkomo :
“The hardest lesson of my life has come to me late. It is that a nation can win freedom without its people becoming free.”
@iain mhor
I use opendns set in my router.
the point about sensible dave refusing to answer the question should be a lesson, if we did get 50%+ and bojo still says no would back fire on him. the hard nosed unionists would cheer, no doubt, but a large number of softer unionists would be outraged at the undemocratic nature of the refusal. support for wm accepting this result would be well over the actual snp vote
@ Al Stuart. take a note of date and time, or just leave the page up and refresh.
Col Blimp 1V,
Couldn’t agree more about the guff from Alyn Smyth.
No harm to the guy but he is exactly what one pictures an opportunist career politician to be.
All his pseudo passion about Europe and then seamlessly into a shoe in selection for Stirling. Good money if you can get it Alyn.
It would be so nice to be independent as of 2018.
Some nutters in 2014 were victims of scares. I had four phone calls on referendum day in 2014 saying I would lose my pension. How did these shites know I had a good pension?
Skulduggery !