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The cat and all the pigeons

Posted on July 06, 2020 by

Our most extra-specially alert readers may have recently noticed the website of some dodgy chancer claiming that a recent opinion poll by Survation showed high support for a pro-independence list party led by Alex Salmond.

Unfortunately, no such poll existed. The site owner blanked every request to back up his assertion with a link to the supposed survey, and it rapidly became clear that it was a totally fabricated piece of attention-seeking which we won’t indulge with a link.

But it seemed worth asking the question for real.

So we added the question to our latest Panelbase poll, conducted last week. And the results were pretty explosive.

(We’d like to take a moment at this point to note for the record that this article is the first Alex Salmond will be hearing about the poll. It wasn’t his idea, he wasn’t notified in advance, and we have no reason to believe he intends to form any such party.) 

The headline figures – that 26% of Scottish voters would either definitely or probably give their list vote to a Salmond-led list party – were fairly stunning in themselves for a brand new party. But it’s not until you stop and think about what those numbers mean that the full significance sinks in.

Because clearly, the appeal of such a party would be fundamentally restricted to half of the electorate – the half that wants independence. So what really matters is how many votes it gets from Yes supporters, whose list votes are currently almost totally wasted.  And that’s where the picture gets really interesting.

A familiar-sounding 45% of 2014 Yes voters said they’d either definitely or probably vote for Salmond’s party, with another 33% not prepared to rule it out. And in fact 11% of No voters agreed. Those are absolutely huge numbers for a new party, but there’s a limit to what they tell us because they’re not data translatable to a Holyrood election. For that we need a breakdown by party, and luckily we have one.

Wow. A thumping 40% of SNP voters – not the mere 28% of the fake poll – say they’d definitely or probably vote for a Salmond party, but even more extraordinary is the 31% of 2019 Labour voters who would too (along with 9% of Tories and 7% of Lib Dems).

And yet it’s logical. A very large minority of Scottish Labour voters – polls consistently suggest anywhere between 30% and 40% – want independence, but their party is an irrelevant joke with no hope of any kind of power and it keeps doubling and tripling down on its total intransigence on the constitution. Any Yes supporters still voting for it at this point must be pretty implacably hostile to the SNP, but they might well view a party fronted by Salmond as a welcome thorn in its side as well as a positive force for indy. (And they’d likely be right.)

When Gavin Barrie analysed Scottish Parliament voting data for us last year, he didn’t even dare contemplate numbers this high for a new pro-indy list party, stopping his calculations at 35% of the SNP list vote alone, which comes to just 14% of the total list vote. But these numbers are almost twice his wildest scenario – if we plug them into yesterday’s Panelbase poll, it suggests the notional Salmond party would be picking up a staggering 609,153 votes.

(In fact, probably a smidgen more than that, because we didn’t have any data to factor in anyone who might change their list vote from the Greens. Plus there’s the almost a quarter of respondents who said they might vote for the new party but more likely wouldn’t. If only a tenth of them did, Salmond would actually WIN the list vote, beating even the SNP into second place.)

That’s far more than the Tories got (502,000) in 2016, for which they picked up 24 list seats, and more still than Labour (436,000), who won 21 list seats. (And both of those figures were reduced by the Tories and Labour also winning some constituency seats – 7 and 3 respectively – which wouldn’t be the case for a new list party.)

It’s more than four times the Green list vote in 2016, and over five times the Lib Dem list vote. Indeed, it’s quite substantially more than the combined total of the Green and Lib Dem list AND constituency votes (461,000). According to the Election Polling seat forecaster it’d be enough to secure 28 seats.

Caveats apply to such predictions, as we noted last night. But that’d be one more than the Tories, Labour and Lib Dems put together. Alex Salmond would be, by a very great distance, the second biggest force in the Scottish Parliament, and a large swathe of Unionist dead weight would suddenly be looking for new employment.

The broadness of Salmond’s cross-demographic appeal was notable. There was no discernible difference in the level of his definite-or-probable support among Remain and Leave voters, for example, coming in at 27% and 26% respectively.

Nor, despite Salmond having endured months and months of smearing, innuendo and malicious speculation over a series of false sexual-assault allegations, was there much of a gap between men and women, recording 29% and 24% backing.

And perhaps the most surprisingly to us, support was highest among the youngest age groups. That might have been partly expected because the young tend to be much more in favour of independence, but they’re also the most “woke” and Salmond is a straight white man in his 60s, a set of characteristics often derided by modern youth as “male, pale and stale” and much sneered at by the punditariat.

Yet 33% of 16-34 voters said they’d definitely or probably back his party if he created one, and 28% of those from 35 to 54. Only Salmond’s contemporaries in the oldest age group – those most likely to be Unionist – bucked the trend, scoring just 18%.

But by far the biggest gulf, despite Salmond being a noted and genuine Anglophile, came by country of birth. While 28% of native Scots and 23% of those from beyond the UK were supportive, a miserly 12% of those respondents resident in Scotland but born in England (around 9% of the sample) said they’d vote for his party.

These figures will be causing something akin to sheer blind panic at SNP HQ, not least because they come BEFORE any revelations from the inquiry into whether the party, the Scottish Government, the Scottish civil service and Police Scotland were engaged in a conspiracy to frame Salmond on the sexual assault charges.

We must emphasise again that we have no grounds to believe Alex Salmond DOES intend to form a list party. He may wish to rejoin the SNP. He may even wish to try to take back control of it. Or he may want a well-earned rest after the traumas of the last couple of years. All of this is entirely hypothetical.

But if he did re-enter the fray, it seems very clear from these findings that the “both votes SNP” strategy that wasted close to a million votes in 2016 would be blown clean out of the water. Holyrood would have a vast pro-indy majority, dozens of Unionist seatwarmers would be out on their ears, and – and here’s where the scenario differs from the SNP/indy majority currently being suggested by Holyrood opinion polling – the SNP would be under unprecedented pressure to actually get moving and do something about independence.

(As well as having to reconsider the enormous arrogant hubris and complacency that’s currently afflicting the administration and causing it to stubbornly push through some extremely unpopular and badly-thought-out policies.)

We hope readers are as excited about that possibility, even as just a theory, as we are.

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    1. 06 07 20 08:57

      The cat and all the pigeons | speymouth

    2. 08 07 20 10:37

      Journalist of the Year and a few headlines | Grumpy Scottish Man

    749 to “The cat and all the pigeons”

    1. Brotyboy says:

      Good stuff.

    2. susan says:

      Now that’s what I call an exciting scenario!

    3. Ruglonian says:

      Can’t wait to see the reactions to this 😀

    4. call me dave says:

      Jings!

      If folk stay the course and carry through on the poll findings there will be lots of list sitting Unionists twiddling their thumbs and reading job adverts. Er…’Bring it on’…. 🙂

    5. Juteman says:

      Alex Salmond is probably the only figure that could poll as high as this. I actually voted for him in this poll, and only because it was him.

    6. mogabee says:

      I love it!!!

      SNP HQ need to realise that we won’t be treated as voting fodder any fucking longer.

      Game on? 😀

    7. Liz g says:

      Then fur goodness sake someone get on the phone to Alex Salmond….Annie put they grandweans doon and dial fur Scotland!
      We need this,we need to take Holyrood and make a stand..
      If no one can tell a Nation this Far and no Farther..
      Then right back at ye Alex Salmond..you can’t bring us this far and walk away now!

    8. Helen Yates says:

      I truly hoped you were going to confirm today that this is exactly what was in the pipeline, however I agree it is exiting to see how popular the idea is, just have to hope now that Alex reads this and thinks to himself what an absolutely brilliant idea, I continue to live in hope.

    9. Grouse Beater says:

      A thunderbolt of a warning for the timidity of the ‘54% Is Not Enough’ Party.

    10. Russell McNab says:

      (Smiles from ear to ear) – I’m a pro-Indy person becoming increasingly disillusioned with current SNP strategy of “keep going up the hill, we’re nearly there”. Definitely think the new party should be called CATP (Cat Amongst The Pigeons) but also because the “Cat Pee” acronym sounds like it’s just what’s needed in the Holyrood chamber – something that’s going to make the SNP wince enough to get off their arses and make something happen. In all seriousness this has made me smile greatly – we’re finally starting to talk about Scottish politics and issues of what the personalities will be like in a post Indy Scottish Parliament as we move on from “Post Westminster” politics. Interesting stuff!

    11. Oscar says:

      It’s amazing how one piece of information can lift your spirits and puts that little spring back in your step.

      We are going through a period of “Don’t mention INDY” at the moment, lead by Nicola Sturgeon, but this item this morning does blow her strategy right out of the water.

      And are you being modest Rev, because you failed to mention whether you will become one of the new MSPs in this Alex Salmond revolution.?

      Brilliant piece to give us the lift we are looking for in lockdown Scotland.

    12. John Dickson says:

      Excited, oh yes.

    13. Kevin Cargill says:

      I wonder if Collette Walker would be willing to stand aside if Salmond did decide to take on a new party. I’d certainly be happy with that.

    14. Sharny Dubs says:

      Excited hardly covers it!

      So long since we have any positive hopeful news. Let’s hope the SNP high heidians respond positively, however I hae ma doots.

    15. Clem Fandango says:

      My initial extreme excitement, once abated, had me thinking about more practical matters.

      Time – 10 months approx till election.
      Money – Would we require the biggest crowdfunder Scotland has ever seen?
      Candidates – How long would that process take ?

    16. Ed says:

      How does ‘might’ in the question become ‘would’ in your reporting of it? Didn’t you used to do articles about how ‘would’ in unionist headlines never actually meant ‘would’. I feel a bit insulted, as if you don’t think anyone will notice there’s a difference.

    17. Sharny Dubs says:

      Wonder how Cherry and the likes will view this data?

      Cracking post Stu!!

    18. Bob Mack says:

      Just wow. I hope it happens. Salmond is not a man you can manipulate to your own ends.

      In my opinion one of the finest Statesmen Scotland has ever produced. I understand Alex has had a tough time of it, but like Arthurian legend I hope that he will again arise when his country is in dire need.
      I pray it will happen. A leader in every sense of the word.

    19. ebreah says:

      As I had pointed out in the preceding article, Nicola/SNP now cannot afford to make the same offer they had been making previously. The electorate has become emboldened and it is up to her/SNP to do the same. I believe (barring her/SNP making a bold offer in the next election) there is very much a hope for a new independence party to thrive in the next election. There is obviously a lacuna in independence movement that is currently unrepresented by any party in the Parliament now.

    20. Jill Sharpe says:

      A question – surely for this to work there must be only one new party – an A lex endorsement of the ISP would be helpful.

    21. hi says:

      Ye canny have yer cake n eat it…

      If that many people really ARE willing to vote for such a party, why was there not a higher ‘other’ vote recorded in the same voting intention poll.

      In 2007 election, a poll in the run up said 21% would vote for Scottish Voice. They only polled 0.3% in the election.

      This is the problem with polling, asking a limited question only gives you a limited answer. We have no idea WHY people answered the way they did, and if you don’t KNOW that for sure then you’re going to struggle to give me people reason to vote for it

    22. Evelyn Airlie says:

      Today is a good day

    23. ahundredthidiot says:

      The Game is rigged, so, we need to figure out how to rig it in our favour.

      If NS and the SNP are serious about Scotland winning Her independence and potentially rejoining the EU, they would be encouraged by these results.

      Forget everything for a second – the Leader of the SNP should have a minion actively colluding with AS to get this show on the road.

      what else have we to lose?

    24. Muscleguy says:

      As Collette Walker leader of the ISP noted to the Alliance time is fast running out for getting registered to stand next year. It took the ISP 5 months to get registered. The electoral commission is not in the business of helping new parties get registered. You make a tiny mistake back comes your application.

      My application for a PVG certificate was like that, back it came. I got it but it took longer than expected.

      Salmond may join the ISP though I’m not sure an avowedly pro women party would want him. Scandal sticks even if its untrue. Also the curent leadership would be wary of it becoming the Alex Salmond party. As a member I would be ambivalent about that since it would not be the party I joined.

      Hypotheticals are lovely aren’t they? I have yet to see a poll which measures the ISP’s potential support. They have not begun to market themselves outside of twitter or facebok posts. They would be stoked to get close to the Greens or even the FibDems on first showing. Salmond levels of support are a pipe dream.

    25. Cath says:

      I would love this scenario. I’m neither a fan of, nor hostile to, Alex or Nicola. They both have strengths and weaknesses, but those are very much complimentary and they appeal to different types of voter. A Holyrood (a Scotland) with both of them up front, and those two parties dominating Holyrood – at least for the next four years as we power to Indy – would be fantastic. Now if they could just see that…

    26. Dan says:

      Good to see those stats, and notably the Labour numbers that kinda align with the pro-indy percentage of their support base.

      Ques up Step On by Happy Mondays knowing there’s gonna be a lot of twisted melons out there today! 🙂

    27. Jim says:

      ‘Sir’ Alex was a wee bit unprofessional and took his eye off the ball with some of the Bute House goings on.

      But what an opportunity to make amends, and potentially complete the mission.

      May he rise like a phoenix and render those unionist benchwarmers impotent and without voice!

    28. ahundredthidiot says:

      muscleguy @ 9:01

      On this issue I am sure of only two things;

      Alex Salmond would get my List Vote, and I am naturally suspicious of the ISP.

      Now, surely we back the side most likely to help us achieve our objective?

    29. Denise says:

      I wish you didn’t give us false hope. Is Alex likely to start a new Party or join ISP? Otherwise you are just playing with us

    30. ahundredthidiot says:

      and a big thank you to ‘sir’ kier for ruling out Indyref2.

    31. Rm says:

      The Scottish Government will have to sort out who’s actually allowed to vote on Scotland’s future, you can’t have in comers recently arrived in Scotland having a say in its future because they might be here for only a short while, as I said before I was speaking to two Polish Joiner’s who’ve been here for over six year, they said they haven’t the right to a vote on Scotland’s future as they weren’t born here and someday might go back to their own country, the SNP will have to sort this out or we’ll never be able to end the union, becoming a Scottish National before being allowed to vote is just common sense, no other country would allow that to happen.

    32. Neil Mackenzie says:

      My impression from Twitter was that a depressingly large number of people didn’t understand how “both votes SNP” was undermining pro-independence representation in Holyrood but this poll seems to indicate that impression was quite wrong.

      I can’t see Alex forming a new party for 2021 but if he voiced support for one that already exists (the recently launched Independence for Scotland Party, for example) it could have a similar result.

    33. Martin says:

      I think it would be interesting to see what the results would be if the party were led by someone else- either a big hitter like Joanna Cherry or just “someone.” My worry is these numbers are purely for Alex Salmond and he may well be pretty scunnered with the political world right now and want a (deserved) rest.

    34. Lollysmum says:

      Yet another example showing why Wings should be shut down from a Union perspective. One article has just lifted half of the electorate to dare to hope again.

      Well done that man.

    35. Capella says:

      Great news. I hope Alex does decide to stand. I would like him to front the new ISP party to annoy almost all the right people. But let’s see. I have every faith that Alex Salmond will do whatever he thinks best for the independence cause. And the people most afraid of that lie in Westminster.

    36. Graf Midgehunter says:

      As the Rev says, this is all theoretical but it’s exactly that type of thinking that looks for new ways to break the blinkered view that dominates current Scottish politics.

      This is what Think-Tanks do (kezia aside if course) 🙂

      The collector of mandates and her crew are so bogged down in their S30, WM system that they themselves can’t inovate any ideas other than being good managers in the system.

      I don’t want a referendum because WM will do everything in its power (legal or illegal) to manipulate a NO, full stop.

      We therefore have to break the Brit Nat grip on Scotland so any well thought out and practical way of doing it gets my support.

      Our Sovereignty, voiced by a large majority in Holyrood needs to be put into overdrive. This sounds like a solid way to move forward.

    37. Willie says:

      Excellent polling data and reinforces how a super majority for independence could be delivered.

      And the data thoroughly discredits the previous ‘ two votes SNP ‘ policy that gave four seats for nearly a million votes. And the thought of removing the odious list seat Tories is absolutely makes a super majority even more delectable.

      The complacent, the compromised, the time servers and the frankly visionless rake note. Change is coming – and in that regard the brutal incompetence of the Boris Johnson Government together with his absolute hostility to the very existence of Scotland will be a backdrop to the next Scottish parliamentary election.

      Great work Rev Stu. This is Wings at its very best.

      No more wasted mandates!

    38. John Mcphail says:

      “It took the ISP 5 months to get registered”.

      … I wouldn’t use the ISP as a benchmark. It took them months to get their website up and running, and someone commented that you could not make donations from outside the UK. “We’ll get on that right away” they said….. and yet, still the same. Whilst they may have good intentions, it would be difficult to take them seriously at this time.

      Only a Wings party could hit the ground running, with or without AS.

    39. Graeme Hampton says:

      Thank whatever diety looks after us some good news at last. Would have been interesting to pose the question with alternative names e.g. Kenny MacAskill or perhaps even the retiring Mike Russell.

    40. Fraser Reid says:

      imagine this – Alex does start a new party – with the Rev. there to assist.

      ALEX! ALEX! ALEX! ALEX!…..

    41. deerhill says:

      “Holyrood would have a vast pro-indy majority, dozens of Unionist seatwarmers would be out on their ears.”

      What’s not to like? Please Mr. Salmond, go for it.

    42. Muscle guy says,
      Salmond may join the ISP though I’m not sure an avowedly pro women party would want him. Scandal sticks even if its untrue. Also the curent leadership would be wary of it becoming the Alex Salmond party.

      Actually if you had listened to my recent podcast @ barrheadboy.com with Colette you would have heard her announce 73% of the present membership are male, hardly an ‘avowedly Pro women’ Party. I also would be interested how your knowledge is so intimate of the current leadership that you believe they would be wary of it becoming the Alex Salmond Party? Having spoken several times prior to and after ISP formation and previously being in same SNP Constituency Party as Colette I harbour much different opinions from yourself.

    43. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Time – 10 months approx till election.
      Money – Would we require the biggest crowdfunder Scotland has ever seen?
      Candidates – How long would that process take ?”

      A list party needs remarkably little money. As this poll demonstrates, Salmond already has the “brand awareness” in spades. And people don’t actually pay any attention to elections until a few weeks before the vote. Gathering the candidates is the most challenging of those, but again not so much of a problem for a list party where it’s the figurehead that really matters. How many of the list candidates in your region could you have named last time?

    44. Mags says:

      I have been reading posts on here for awhile but this is the first time I have posted. With all this talk about indyref/elections going on my gut feeling is elections are finished in this country as sturgeon is on a power trip. Shes to busy dictating and controlling etc shes not going to give that power up and allow any elections. I dont like the route that this country is going down it really worries me.

    45. Bob Mack says:

      There’s a spring in my step this morning. I realise Alex may no longer wish to participate in politics due to his recent experiences, but I now have hope that we can see a route map to break the inaction towards Indy that currently envelops the SNP.

      I would give anything for the chance to make this happen.

    46. Big Jock says:

      It’s a no brainer. Even in the worst scenario. If Salmond’s party got 16 or 17 seats. It’s a damn sight better than the SNP’s paltry 4 list seats.

    47. Colin Alexander says:

      Interesting figures. But, I don’t think the SNP will be as rattled as some seem to think.

      The SNP won’t give a toss, as long as they remain in power, which opinion polls suggest they will – with a majority next time.

    48. Julia Gibb says:

      If you factor in who Alex could “encourage” to become candidates for a new party the potential explodes.

      I hope he does form a list Party. It would drive the Independence campaign to a new level. The added bonus being the Tory cretins getting kept out of Holyrood.

      Please Alex..at least consider it!

    49. fillofficer says:

      thanks revstu
      this has lifted me greatly
      hypothetical or not, it’s a joy to read
      my biggest worry is that if WM thinks they will lose all influence at HR, then they may take drastic action after brexit & before next HR vote
      read somewhere that cummings is up to something, in that regard

    50. Republicofscotland says:

      If you’re reading this Alex, come on get back on the horse, you’ll get my list vote. However if you decide not to, my list vote will be going to the ISP, it won’t be going to the SNP where it will be wasted, and allow the likes of Fraser and Wells to get their snouts back into the trough.

    51. Bob Mack says:

      @Colin Alexander,

      I think the SNP will be very rattled. Facing Alex Salmond across a chamber is a very different proposition to facing Carlaw or Leonard.

      Alex will want to know about progress towards Indy, and the very influential presence of the man carries weight with public opinion.

      He has the real potential of making the SNP become more radical in its approach.

    52. ScottieDog says:

      Was talking about this scenario the other day. Someone like Alex would really maximise the Indy list vote (I’m sure James Kelly will say it’s a bad idea though). He’d also be prepared to push the boundaries on turning the Indy majority into independence. Hope he does.

    53. Republicofscotland says:

      Excellent column from Ruth Wishart in the National newspaper today on how Westminster intends to weaken Holyrood to the point, that its just a talking shop or Stormont.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18562834.ruth-wishart-parliament-cant-pass-laws-no-parliament/

    54. Julia Gibb says:

      What better way to negate the reputational slur campaign than returning to politics. The Unionist press set out to destroy his reputation and political career. If he withdraws permanently from politics they win.

      An innocent man with the proven support of his country…what a message!

    55. Robert Louis says:

      Oh, that is dynamite. Some unionist wastrels (Murdo Fraser) will be panicking and some SNP wastrels in high office, might also start panicking.

      A political leader who actually wants to make Scotland independent, instead of just occasionally talking vaguely about it in the run up to elections (talking about you, NS).

      If this were to come to pass, I just hope it won’t be too late to free Scotland from England’s shackles. I fear the time is running out.

      We can only hope. Mr. Salmond’s presence and drive is sorely missed.

    56. HYUFD says:

      If a hardline pro Independence Salmond Party had a presence at Holyrood then inevitably all the hardline Nats would join it.

      However cleansed of its hardliners the SNP could forever stay largest party and in Government in Scotland but without the pressure to push independence too hard without Westminster consent

    57. ScottieDog says:

      @ Republicofscotland
      Yes much of this might be moot if they start dismantling holyrood. I’m sure they are thinking up lots of creative ways to do so.

      I think all of this is going to lead to civil disobedience tbh

    58. jfngw says:

      @Republicofscotland

      Completely true, as we argue about the pros and cons of a list party and do we prefer NS or AS, the Tories are quietly beavering away to remove any real power the devolved parliaments (this will be a misleading description once they have finished) have. They will be there to rubber stamp the decisions made in the English parliament by the English PM, it will be the will of the 15% of Tory voters in Scotland that will be running the country.

      If that is the outcome I suspect AS will be more than happy to just retain his TV programme, it will have more clout than being in Holyrood or holding the FM to account.

    59. John H. says:

      In 2014 I would never have imagined that we would have to contemplate forming a pro independence party to pressurise the SNP into doing the job they were formed to do.

      If Alex Salmond were to ask for a crowdfunder to help him get back on his feet, I would be happy to contribute. Though I think he is too proud to ask.

    60. Andy Ellis says:

      @HYUFD

      Isn’t the point rather that the SNP might find itself in a situation where it depended for its majority on a party which would hold their feet to the fire and insist on more than platitudes and gradualism in return for their support?

      At present pro-indy voters who want a more radical stance than that espoused by faint hearts like Wishart, Smyth, Sturgeon and the rest of the quasi-devolusionists behind the Growth Commission have nowhere else to go.

      Doubtless there will be many yoon bench warmers and SNP make weights feeling a little nervous this morning.

    61. Vivian O'Blivion says:

      It’s all about international recognition. The Bundestag or the Parlement français won’t give a fuck if we game the system, they’ll just see the headlines and act accordingly.

    62. Craig Murray says:

      @colinalexander

      That would be like the Liberal Party in 1911 not giving a toss about a few Labour Party seats, before heading to oblivion.

      A party actually committed to Independence, rather than to running the devolution settlement, would render the SNP obsolete rather quickly. With any luck the SNP will see that, and change its approach radically.

    63. Flower of Scotland says:

      I would vote for Alex Salmond in a heartbeat. He is missed so much by Independence supporters.

    64. Newburghgowfer says:

      The d’hondt systrm isnt exactly rocket science to figure out and beat. After all Labour brought it in! I have also said previously that SNP list candidates should have started another party. Last election Christian Allard didn’t get a seat whilst having the biggest list vote so the SNP should have wised up and started another party. As for a new party getting candidates I am sure a Pro Indy employment agency can find enough people to stand with the lure they can get a cushy number like Turdo F or Inane Welly for being a patsy until we get Independence. After all if you asked 8 out of 10 people to name their MSP you would be lucky to get 4 who know the answer. Whether a New Party can get out and let people know the reason they are going to stand they have a chance. For me Indy groups have to merge and create their own media presence instead of all them doing their own things. Rivalries have to stop and side issues put on the back burner until Indy achieved

    65. David Hooks says:

      Would have been interesting to see the same question asked but without Alex Salmond as the leader to determine whether people were interested in voting for a new pro Independence Party just as a concept or whether Salmond himself was the main factor in people’s response. One for next time maybe? Given Salmond hasn’t suggested he has any intention of returning to frontline politics and, if he did, is fast running out of time to create such a party it’s a bit of a moot point. Would have been good to be able to clarify if those “definitely not” figures were altered by a party running without Alex Salmond as leader.

    66. Capella says:

      @ Newburghgowfer – the SNP can’t set up a list party. That would be illegal. Collusion is illegal too but that doesn’t stop the unionist parties colluding in every election. But, you can rest assured that, if the SNP colluded the Electoral Commission would suddenly find the rule book.

    67. Sensibledave says:

      This all looks very promising and encouraging for indy supporters. I would urge two notes of caution though. Firstly, judging by the reactions above, there is a feeling that Mr Salmond is, perhaps, the only person that could pull it off (so what if he doesnt want to do it?). Secondly, and I am sure he knows this whilst considering his position, he will be “targeted” by everyone else that isn’t a supporter … probably including the SNP.

      He will be attacked and smeared and if there are other skeletons in the cupboard then they will be dragged out by a combination of the SNP, the other opposition paties (who have much to lose if Mr Salmond were to get some traction) and (based upon the general view here) the MSM.

      However, Boris has provided an example of how a “marmite” candidate can be very successful despite the polarisation they sometimes provoke.

    68. Oscar says:

      Capella

      You seem to want to throw cold water on any positive suggestions,why?

      You come across as a bit of a wet blanket.

      It’s as if you have a different agenda.

    69. Red Squirrel says:

      Dear Mr Salmond

      We know you need some time but Scotland needs you. We’re ready when you are.

      Signed
      Independence Supporter (no longer SNP supporter)

    70. Julia Gibb says:

      @Sensibledave

      “..He will be attacked and smeared”

      ???
      That is a cracker!

    71. mark whittet says:

      6 JUL 2020

      Pps; Legal action may follow because of libellous comments in Wings article (above)

      Yours independently, 

      Mark RWhittet (LLB, BA)LeaderScotland’sIndependence Referendum Party Mark [at] SIRP [dot] Scot@ScotsIndyRef3

    72. winifred mccartney says:

      Great article – we live in hope.

      Did not really like AS but the way he has been treated is an outrage. There is a good possibility every man of his age in a position of authority could be accused of something or other not even necessarily sexual.

      I would certainly vote for him on the list.

    73. Gary45% says:

      Patiently waiting for you Mr Salmond, Scotland needs you.
      As you said “The Dream Will Never Die”.

    74. John Alexander Ferguson says:

      Alex Salmond said, “you’ve not seen the last of my bonnets and me”

    75. Julia Gibb says:

      Would people please stop using the term “gaming the system”.
      We have a two tier voting system. Using it to vote for two different parties is not gaming the system.

    76. Andy Ellis says:

      @Mark Whittet

      To be honest, given that you have an “oven ready” party which has risen without trace in the 3 years of your leadership, I’d have thought you might be worried about Alex Salmond and his many supporters coming in and using it as a vehicle. If only you’d chosen a less clunky name: seems like you have no more idea about brand management than the ISP sadly!

    77. Capella says:

      First of the threats roll in.

      @ Oscar – care to tell me which of my two comments you regard as “throwing cold water over positive suggestions”?

      I only have one agenda – independence for Scotland. Anything which tends towards that is good – anything which tends to deny that is bad. simple really.

    78. tartanfever says:

      Those are quite staggering Poll figures.

      Playing devils advocate, two things initially come to mind:

      a) the press would play Alex vs. Nicola all day everyday – every nuance would be exploded out of proportion, one of them being

      b) that the election is being rigged. Whether it is or not, that will be the accusation from unionist parties and media. This may lead to certain parties not standing candidates in an effort to consolidate the union vote. Whatever we do can be done to us in return.

    79. Allium says:

      The SNP leadership ought to eat crow and start trying to build bridges with AS – but they won’t. Or possibly they can’t.

      The levels of hubris they have to contain are starting to look unmanageable.

    80. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Mags (9.41) –

      Welcome to the comments – lurk no more!

      Hope you’ll comment again, and soon.

      😉

    81. Lothianlad says:

      Brilliant Stu…

      Alex Salmond will be remembered as a great Scottish hero in history, long after the careerists have but the dust.

      But, long before that, Alex has plenty of fire power to drive us to freedom!

      Any NS loyalist who doubts his capabilities and who at best looked the other way when he was being fitted up, needs a hard look at themselves.

      Alex Salmond has done more to advance Scottish Independence than NS has ever done . Here’s the best bit, hes got alot more fight in him still!

    82. jfngw says:

      @mark whittlet

      If Alex Salmond turns you down you could maybe try Nigel Farage, he’s at a lose end just now and having problems with his party name. Looks like it may be a match made in heaven.

    83. Bob Mack says:

      @Tartanfever,

      Do you really believe the Media could find a case of Alex working in cahoots with Nicola?

      Very unlikely post trial .

    84. Col.Blimp IV says:

      HYUFD

      Don’t worry old chap, no proper country ever won its independence without a decent civil war apearing somewhere in the mix.

      Look forward to meeting you on the field … I’ll be wearing blue face-paint and yelling the F-word.

    85. Auld Rock says:

      Want to know the site’s actual owner, may I suggest the MI5’s and establishment’s dirty tricks dept!!!!

    86. Mike d says:

      So 67% of those born down south would ‘ definitely not’ vote for mr salmonds list party. No surprise there then.

    87. Julia Gibb says:

      @tartanfever

      Dozens of MPs have changed Parties. Formed new parties. Amalgamated parties etc etc.
      Are people now saying a new party can never be formed? Are the Greens gaming the system?
      Is I. Murray and his Tory supporters not gaming the system. Almost every council vote is “gamed” by Unionist transferring their 2,3 and 4th. Votes to each other.

      I wish this nonsense would stop. I have two votes and intend to use them. The only question is WHO will get my second vote. Following the rules of the electoral system but not restrict your vote. E.g. If I lived in a Tory marginal I would vote for the candidate with the best chance of beating him…regardless of my party membership or affiliation.

      As for the MSM…who cares what the say anymore.

    88. Colin Alexander says:

      mark whittet

      Why doesn’t SIRP seek votes on the basis of making Holyrood a plebiscite election and challenge other “pro-indy” parties to share the same single policy manifesto? Dissolving the Union / independence.

      There is nothing to stop political parties having the same policy whilst competing against each other for votes.

      If pro-indy parties get 50%+1 of the vote, irrespective of seats won, they THEN form a national convention to jointly declare a the Union dissolved.

    89. jfngw says:

      @Julia Gibb

      That’s why I dislike the STV system used in council by-elections, it’s not so bad a full vote, unionists are effectively getting three bites at the cherry to our one (I never vote Green).

    90. Mike d says:

      RM 9.12am. Till that situation is addressed, Scotland will always be p**sing in the wind.

    91. Newburghgowfer says:

      Capella
      I meant for ex SNP candidates to form a party. After all if a Labour or Tory want to change parties it isn’t a problem. They might get deselected at next election but its 4 years easy money.
      The List candidates who are currently thinking about standing for SNP should wise up and leave the party now to join a new Party. If the yoons can form better together their isnt nothing they can do about 2 bona fide separate parties colluding after an election !!

    92. I see Rm is making some odd suggestions at https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-cat-and-all-the-pigeons/#comment-2545342

      How do I become a Scottish National please?

      I moved here to live and work 17 years ago.
      Joined the SNP 13 years ago, for whom I canvass and steward at conference.

      I’m an active member of Yes Ross and Sutherland, march with AUOB and have been known to kick the odd quid Rev’s way.

      I’m English.
      Always will be English.

      I HOPE when we get independence to take Scottish citizenship and get a Scottish passport, but I’ll always be English.

    93. Capella says:

      @ Newburghgowfer – sorry – I thought you meant that the SNP should set up a second party. Apos 🙂

    94. deerhill says:

      “He will be attacked and smeared and if there are other skeletons in the cupboard then they will be dragged out by a combination of the SNP, the other opposition paties (who have much to lose if Mr Salmond were to get some traction) and (based upon the general view here) the MSM.”

      If there were “other skeletons in the cupboard” I think some illwisher would have dragged them out by now. After all Police Scotland had their crack troops beavering away for a year and found nothing but “he twirled my hair”.

      Perhaps the Hollyrood enquiry will find skeletons, but not in Mr. Salmond’s cupboard.

    95. tartanfever says:

      @JulieGibb

      Not quite sure you read my post. I never said new parties can’t be formed, nor did I say it was gaming the system, and if you think ‘this nonsense should stop’, I would suggest you have maybe forgotten the media’s roll in the 2014 campaign.

      All I merely pointed out is that this is how the media and unionist parties may react to such a move. If you’re upset by my post, I can only imagine how apoplectic you will be when the DR, the Scotsman, the Times, Sun and Herald get started with their headlines.

    96. Colin Alexander says:

      Craig Murray said:

      “A party actually committed to Independence, rather than to running the devolution settlement, would render the SNP obsolete rather quickly. With any luck the SNP will see that, and change its approach radically”.

      That’s probably why they voted to make it five year terms instead of four. Also, Holyrood is not FTPT voting, which makes a big difference.

      But, I do admire you optimism.

    97. ahundredthidiot says:

      The Attack on AS has utterly failed – utterly.

      If I was running GCHQ right now I would be doing my fucking dinger at these results……….or collecting my P45

      The day just keeps getting better! – suns oot, Alex is Back

      (OK, that last bit was wishful thinking………for now)

    98. deerhill says:

      Steve Ellwood, You sound like a Scot to me!

      Remember the test is “Come to Scotland and be a Scot”.

    99. iain mhor says:

      I wonder what the comparable data would have been with A.N Other vs specifically AS
      Wasn’t that polled by Wings after G.Barries predictions and came out at something like: 75% of those polled Definitely/Perhaps would vote for an Indy list party?

      Is it really an AS effect, or just ‘Gies any alternative and we’ll think about it’? I seem to recall the “Definitelys” then, were were about the same as the Definitely/More than likely” here – somewhere in the 20% range.

      I’ll have a wee look at previous Wings polls/posts about the list party question, before I’m berated as an Unalert Reader…

    100. James Che. says:

      We have to protect Holyrude first or be prepared to start thinking about a citizen or people assembly, so we have some where to vote that still has teeth,

    101. Geoff Anderson says:

      Amazing how an upbeat positive story is suddenly reduced by the Scottish cringe factor.

    102. wee3 says:

      Why did the question not go as follows?

      We’d like to imagine a new pro-independence party was formed for the 2021 Scottish Parliament election, contesting ONLY on the regional list vote, and that party was led by Alex Salmond. In that scenario who would you cast your regional list vote for:
      [] SNP
      [] Tories
      [] Labour
      [] Lib Dem
      [] Green
      [] Hypothetical new pro-independence party led by Salmond
      [] Other
      [] Don’t know

      That’s what we REALLY need to know, needs to get it in the headline polls if anyone is going to take notice.

    103. robbo says:

      Capella says:
      6 July, 2020 at 10:44 am

      Wouldn’t worry Capella.I’m sure the Oscar will reveal themselves very soon.

    104. Kamineko says:

      The Salmond Notional Party? Now that’s just going to get confusing.

    105. HYUFD says:

      Andy Ellis No, as the poll suggests the SNP would win 69 seats and a small majority at Holyrood even if the ISP stood on the list, so the SNP can ignore the ISP.

      To really make the SNP take notice the ISP will have to stand for constituency seats, not just on the list and thus actually challenge the SNP for power at Holyrood

    106. Col.Blimp IV says:

      tartanfever

      The bottom line for the Unionist MSP’s is that with this senario, half of them would stand to loose their jobs.

      Doing deals with opponents, standing as the United Unionists and coming out in favor of Independence, are options that will all cross their minds and serve only to illustrate their hopelessness.

      What the SNP need to look out for is the smarter ones pulling out all the stops to get elected on the FPTP ballot, probably in cahoots with their supposed mortal enemies.

      The SNP could counter this by not standing for the regional list at all, and concentrating their effort into convincing the electorate that their Party was the best suited to govern Scotland and that their candidates were the best people for the job – secure in the knowledge that any seats lost at the FPTP Ballot would be more than made up for in Unionist losses on the LIST ballot.

      Or they could just double down with their old tried, trusted and discredited SNP 1&2 mantra.

      If they go with option 2 and it is not accompanied with an actual “give me liberty or give me death” pledge, that they honour, either at Hollyrood or by getting on the next plane to the Dignitas clinic in Switzerland.

      It will put an end to my 40 year habit of voting SNP.

    107. Geoff Anderson says:

      @Steve Ellwood

      Many,many Nations were founded and nurtured by those not born on that shore.
      America, Canada, New Zealand, Australia etc etc. If you help build a Scottish nation that is great.

    108. Ottomanboi says:

      HYUFD 10:04
      Scottish politics is maturing. The one size fits all SNP has developed attention deficit regarding independence. As in the history of Irish nationalism the so called gradualists are being outpaced by those with more focussed political resolve.
      I fail to see why Westminster approval is required for a matter which is a purely Scottish concern. Besides, the only contribution London could make, drawing from imperial history, would be subversive and that could be the element that primes the fuse.

    109. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      A hypothetical conjecture…

      A date for the Holyrood election is announced. The ISP immediately announce that they will have a list of 4 potential candidates for the regions of Central Scotland, Glasgow, Lothian, Mid Scotland and Fife, North East Scotland and West Scotland, ie the regions that returned NO SNP MSPs in 2016.

      The ISP also announces that it will not stand for election in Highlands and Islands, where the SNP has 1 MSP, and South Scotland, where the SNP has 3 MSPs.

      How would the SNP react to that? Would they still have lists for the regions where they won’t gain any regional MSPs or would they bite the bullet and allow the ISP a free run?

    110. Andy Ellis says:

      @HYUFD

      There’s 10 months still to go. It is possible the SNP will win an outright majority, but it’s still possible they won’t. There is also the possibility that some yoons might vote tactically for “save the union” candidates.

      Without any pressure on the SNP we can kiss goodbye to #indyref2 for the real generation yoons keep banging on about. Not the greatest of epitaphs for a party putatively in favour of independence like the SNP?

      There again, many of us now have real doubts how committed to independence the gradualists in the party really are.

    111. Capella says:

      @ robbo – still waiting. Perhaps he#’s practising on his tin drum. 🙂

    112. Frank Gillougley says:

      Absolutely! I look forward to clearing out all the unionist dross – the has beens the never wis beens – to make up an intelligent parliament that acts in scotland’s interests

    113. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi HYUFD at 11:42 am.

      You typed,
      “To really make the SNP take notice the ISP will have to stand for constituency seats, not just on the list and thus actually challenge the SNP for power at Holyrood”

      You’ve totally missed the point! The point is to make use of the wasted SNP votes in the regions, not to stand against the SNP in the constituencies.

    114. ScottieDog says:

      Alex salmond was born for politics and born for the fight that is coming. The Indy movement needs him.
      You wouldn’t play a cup final with your star player on the bench.

    115. Capella says:

      @ BDTT – I don’t think a bona fides political party could just not field candidates. What the unionists did in Gordon – in the GE which was FPTP so easier to collude – was phone round people and advise them on who to vote for if they wanted Alex Salmond out.
      Only the favoured unionist candidates produced much in the way of publicity. That’s collusion IMO.

    116. Scozzie says:

      I really hope Alex Salmond goes for it – I would love to see him back and finishing the job.

      And that’s not me being nostalgic, we need someone with his skills and talent to help drive forward independence (not to mention – also give the SNP the much needed rocket up their collective arses).

    117. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Steve Ellwood

      Rm O/D’d on bad batch of super-strength Irn Bru, the result of which is recurring nightmares about train loads of rhyming slang speaking Cockney’s with Dick van Dyke accents, bowler hatted toffs and big brash Yorkshiremen who say “Eeh by gum” every time they open their mouth.

      Swarming out of every train station in the land, wearing UKIP badges and heading straight to the nearest electoral registration office.

      Wear a kilt, eat lots of shortbread and haggis and you will be fine.

    118. Rm says:

      @steve Elwood, hello Steve I’ve no doubt you’re 100 percent behind Scotland ending the union, but your only 1 out of a hundred in comers that think that way, it’s a pity they all didn’t think like yourself, Scotland has to do what’s good for Scots born people and in comers who want to be Scots, Scotland is Scotland not another country.

    119. jfngw says:

      @BDTT

      The SNP not standing on the list has a risk for those SNP supporters who don’t really follow politics that much. They see the list ballot, believe they must vote for someone, no idea who ISP are, they choose Green or Labour as being the closest party they recognise as being the best choice.

      Obviously if you put Alex Salmond XXX party on the paper (I think the SNP did this in the past) then it becomes clearer. The ISP don’t, at the moment, have that option of a well known independence face to sell themselves.

    120. L. Campbell says:

      The statistics showing that English-born people would be the least likely, more or less, as a group, to vote for a Salmond list party, says it all. Yes, they might well choose to vote SNP in a Scottish election, but, when it comes to a referendum, we simply cannot rely on their vote. On the other hand, they might vote in greater numbers for a list party that was not headed by Salmond, but, again, is it Salmond, the man, who is the bete noir or is it independence itself?

      I know there a lot of English-born independence voters, and welcome, but I still believe that the vast majority would never vote for independence, and that this is a very specific problem in that, as in NI, with the Unionists, they might not be above calling in help from the South in the event of a real independence bid. Anyone who thinks that the English Nationalists in the Cabinet would not respond a la Spain is in denial.

      I understand that a second referendum is the favoured choice, and I understand why, but it has been nothing less than a source of extreme anxiety since 2014. After 2014, the UKG and the British State were never going to allow anything as simple and straightforward again, no matter, or, more likely, because of, the wave principle, where each successive flow leads inexorably to independence. In our case, it has stalled. We are in a state of paralysis.

      That this is due mainly to our timidity and acquiescence, it also has a great deal to do with the fact that we are not willing to confront the Unionists, British and English Nationalists in our midst, albeit they breach international law with their alliances against our rights, enshrined in international law. Until we are willing to confront them and face them down, I doubt that anything much will change on the independence front. We should circumvent their illegal behaviour by taking everything out of the domestic arena where we are getting nowhere, and take the democratic, legal and legitimate route of resiling the Treaty, via a case against the UKG in the international courts, but I don’t suppose we will.

    121. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Would have been interesting to see the same question asked but without Alex Salmond as the leader to determine whether people were interested in voting for a new pro Independence Party just as a concept or whether Salmond himself was the main factor in people’s response. One for next time maybe?”

      We already asked about a generic party in a previous poll. BE MORE ALERT.

    122. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Ye canny have yer cake n eat it…

      If that many people really ARE willing to vote for such a party, why was there not a higher ‘other’ vote recorded in the same voting intention poll.

      In 2007 election, a poll in the run up said 21% would vote for Scottish Voice. They only polled 0.3% in the election.

      This is the problem with polling, asking a limited question only gives you a limited answer. We have no idea WHY people answered the way they did, and if you don’t KNOW that for sure then you’re going to struggle to give me people reason to vote for it”

      Waffling dribble. Pretty much everyone in Scotland knows what Alex Salmond stands for, that was the point of asking the question with his name in it. We’ve already polled before on a generic new pro-indy party and we have more polling still to do.

      Your account of what happened in 2007 is incorrect.

      And nobody puts “Other” in a voting-intentions poll to mean “a party I’ve just thought of that doesn’t actually exist”.

    123. Marie Clark says:

      Well that’s brought a smile to my face this morning. Sounds like a great idea to me, provided Alex Salmond is willing to rejoin the fray.

      Please think about it Alex, Scotland needs you now to help get us our independence.

      Like someone else above, should AS need a crowdfunder to help him, just say so, there’s a whole lot of us just waiting for you to say the word.

    124. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “How does ‘might’ in the question become ‘would’ in your reporting of it? Didn’t you used to do articles about how ‘would’ in unionist headlines never actually meant ‘would’. I feel a bit insulted, as if you don’t think anyone will notice there’s a difference.”

      I’m quite glad you feel that way, because I like insulting idiots. Both the poll and the article are carefully and precisely worded, and liberally sprinkled with caveats. But “Yes, definitely” is not an ambiguous option.

    125. liz says:

      Well something needs to give the SNP current admin a boot up the a*rse.

      Alyn Smith, another careerist urging caution at 54% in the polls for Yes.
      This is the man given the sole nomination by NS because he is woke captain.
      She supported him in campaigning, more than any other candidate.

      One of the out for indy mob, lied about a whole branch meeting, Mhairi Black ran with it to the press, ably supported by that other nutter Hannah Bardell, and what happened. Nothing, nada, silence.

      IMO the SNP are compromised at the top.

    126. Colin Alexander says:

      Craig Murray

      As your face didn’t fit with the SNP vetting procedure,

      had you considered joining another “pro-indy” party and seeking a candidacy?

    127. schrodingers cat says:

      yay :), i’ve been saying this for years.

      i thought this would be your reveal today

      i hope Alex does stand a new party on the list, but if he doesnt, perhaps the next best thing is to ask him if his name can be used?

      ie. Alex salmond party 🙂

      as you said, folk dont take notice of elections until about 2 weeks from the election, and dont check who the list candidates are either, even if alex isnt standing, many folk might not notice and just vote vote for the Alex salmond party anyway ?

    128. Confused says:

      Very positive, something good for once.

      I imagine kelly will be along in a moment to tell us how “the numbers DO LIE” or the question was badly framed and “gaming the system can never work”

      But – I feel salmonds real places is back in the SNP; the SNP is like a fine house, over-run with squatters – leaving them the keys while you build a shed outback, seems wrong, even if its a nice shed.

      “odysseus returns to ithaca”

      There should be another list party – but there is no one of salmonds stature to lead it, no offence to anyone; blogging is to politics what martial arts is to streetfighting.

    129. Alba & Erin Go Bragh says:

      Sounds a good idea to push the SNP but how does this help push the tories in WM to give us Indy Ref 2?

    130. schrodingers cat says:

      or better still, even if alex does rejoin the snp, using his name might still be possible

      in 2011, the name snp didnt appear on the list, alex changed it to read Alex salmond for 1st minister, this ensured that on the actual ballot paper, this voting option appear at the top of the list (alphabetic ordering of choices etc)

      no reason a new indy list party could be called “alex salmond for 1st minister” even if he isnt standing ?

    131. dakk says:

      Very encouraging polling.

      Hopefully that latent support for an AS indy list party can be effectively harnessed.

      “male, pale and stale”

      Nice.

    132. jfngw says:

      @Confused

      He may be amongst us already.

    133. jfngw says:

      Isn’t it strange the Scottish government needs to ask the English government for permission to see the list of people entering Scotland from abroad.

    134. One_Scot says:

      I have no idea whether Alex Salmond wants to return to Scottish politics, but I for one would be so happy there are no words.

      I would much rather live the rest of my life out knowing that we gave it all we could, both barrels, rather than accepting where we are, having done nothing to try and make our future children’s lives better.

      I don’t believe in miracles, but I believe in Alex.

    135. Julia Gibb says:

      @jfngw

      “Strange” – I was thinking something stronger! Obscene, offensive, derogatory etc

    136. David Hooks says:

      “We already asked about a generic party in a previous poll. BE MORE ALERT.”
      Apologies, don’t suppose you’ve got a link to that piece or can remember what it’s called? I just thought that if you’re asking the question of the same sample of people it would have been interesting to see whether Salmond as leader made any appreciable difference positively or negatively. Among SNP voters I’d expect to see a bit of an uptick but just wondered whether he was potentially off-putting for pro-independence voters who support other parties for other policy reasons.
      Would also be interesting to see whether those who did not vote would be more likely to actually go out and vote with an alternative offering. ~10% of respondents said they did not vote and fully 76% of those said they definitely wouldn’t or would be unlikely to vote for the Salmond party. Just wonder what it would take to get these people out to vote.

    137. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Why did the question not go as follows?

      We’d like to imagine a new pro-independence party was formed for the 2021 Scottish Parliament election, contesting ONLY on the regional list vote, and that party was led by Alex Salmond. In that scenario who would you cast your regional list vote for:
      [] SNP
      [] Tories
      [] Labour
      [] Lib Dem
      [] Green
      [] Hypothetical new pro-independence party led by Salmond
      [] Other
      [] Don’t know

      That’s what we REALLY need to know, needs to get it in the headline polls if anyone is going to take notice.”

      Hello, “Anonymous” commenter from Scot Goes Pop!

      Firstly, it seems to be making the news quite well already:

      Scottish Sun – http://archive.is/jlsYB
      Herald – http://archive.is/EwsUo
      National – http://archive.is/iJ0PT

      Secondly, on a purely technical level we couldn’t ask that question because it was an omnibus poll run jointly for several clients and the Sunday Times had already bagsied the voting-intentions Q.

      Thirdly, you can’t put “A purely hypothetical new pro-independence party led by Alex Salmond” on that list of options because it’s stupid, and not just because of how long you’d have to make the name. It’s not like the other options. It doesn’t exist. Why not put a hundred other purely-hypothetical options on there as well? And what about the other parties that DO actually exist, like the SSP and the ISP and however many others? Why do they not get on but hypotheticals do?

      This was a specific question about a specific thing, part of a number of questions about possible new parties that we’ve either already asked or intend to ask, in order to learn stuff that WE want to find out. If you want to ask YOUR questions for YOUR purposes, commission your own fucking poll.

    138. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Apologies, don’t suppose you’ve got a link to that piece or can remember what it’s called?”

      Sheesh cabeesh, does NOBODY even bother looking under the “POLLS” tab at the top of the page?

    139. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Pps; Legal action may follow because of libellous comments in Wings article (above)”

      Bring it on, mate. In the meantime, fuck off out of my website.

    140. CameronB Brodie says:

      That’s certainly positive news. Unfortunately, clearing Holyrood of yoon seat-warmers won’t help us much if we allow genderwoowoo to destroy any semblance of logic and rationality in Scots law, which has not yet codified legal protection for the economic, social, and cultural rights of individuals, as it is subordinate to English legal culture and the tradition of Parliamentary sovereignty, apparently.

      Legacies of Legal Realism: Social Science, Social Policy, and the Law
      https://www.russellsage.org/sites/all/files/ewick_chapter1_pdf.pdf

    141. Bob Costello says:

      This is becoming interesting for the first time since Nicola Sturgeon took over and put the SNP into suspended animation. Go for it Alex, the Dundee Yes Bus team stands ready.

    142. handclapping says:

      If it means I no longer have to suffer the shame of having Murdo as my MSP, I’m all for it

    143. Graham says:

      A key figure in this debate is 66.
      This hypothetical AS led list party would have zero influence if the SNP win the amount of constituency seats predicted in recent polling.
      Is AS coming back to lead a minority party and (at best) play second fiddle to the SNP?
      Not a hope in hell.

    144. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “The SNP won’t give a toss, as long as they remain in power, which opinion polls suggest they will – with a majority next time.”

      “A key figure in this debate is 66.”

      See last night’s post. In the last two months before the 2016 election, the SNP’s lead over the Tories dropped by *17 points*, even though nothing really happened to cause it.

    145. David Hooks says:

      “Sheesh cabeesh, does NOBODY even bother looking under the “POLLS” tab at the top of the page?”
      *Hangs head in shame* – genuinely didn’t see that. Can I blame baby brain and sleep deprivation? Anyhoo, found it. So if we limit it to SNP supporters the figure from the generic poll for Would Definitely was 19% and the Alex Salmond party would be 20%, so well within the margin of “makes no difference”. If we lump “more likely than not” and “possibly but unlikely” into the “depends on the policies” we get 52% (AS) vs 56% (Unspecified). There’s no “don’t know” option on the current poll but the “Definitely not” goes from 14% on the generic party to 28% on the AS party. Suggesting for some SNP voters having Alex Salmond at the head of the party would be markedly more off-putting while for the rest it would make little or no difference and would instead come down to policies. Full data tables not published for the Sept 19 poll so it’s impossible to do a comparison among the non-SNP voters, but seems to my reading that having Alex Salmond at the head of a party is less important than having a pro-independence list party with good policies.

    146. Julia Gibb says:

      @Graham

      Regardless of the SNP seats Alex would have a massive influence. A huge number of SNP members have Independence first and foremost in their objectives. At present they do not have an alternative Party. The Risk of an avalanche of defection to his Party is the key driver – not the number of seats.

    147. Bailey says:

      L Campbell at 12:15. I think you’re right. We’d be better off taking the whole thing out of the arena of the domestic courts and having the treaty sounded in the international courts. We can’t win in a domestic arena which is stacked against us.

      I hope Alex Salmond does return to frontline politics but am afraid that yesterday’s news that Scottish Parliamentary legislation will probably soon have to go before an unelected body which can block it spells the death knell for the Scottish Parliament. I’m not sure we have until May 2021.

      I don’t know how we would kick start the process of having the Treaty sounded but I think we can win as it has been breached so many times and, you are right, England acting as the UK is acting ultra vires.

    148. iain mhor says:

      I have had a bit of a look eating my piece, but couldn’t find data tables from the Wings 2019 poll on the list party question (No AS mention) to see if it was more or less cognate with this one (is that a tautology?… never mind)

      There is only a breakdown, in September, of total SNP respondents. “Definitely” remains unchanged at 20% “Definitely not” has increased from 14-28%

      (Perhaps 56%) (Don’t know 11%)

      The addition in the current poll of ‘More likely’ and ‘Unlikely’ – as opposed to September’s ‘Perhaps & Don’t know’- makes it difficult to gauge.
      It seems that the ‘Perhaps’ phrasing, suggests SNP voters open to the idea. But this poll’s framing of ‘Unlikely’ doesn’t really suggest open to the idea at all – A movement from ‘perhaps’ to ‘unlikely’?

      With this current poll “Definitely not” at 28% (with unlikely 32%) is 60-40 against and suggests AS may be more of a liability for a list party – at least among SNP voting respondents, in polls almost a year apart.

      Or at least, that’s my interpretation – unless I’ve missed something. Perhaps the recent court case has in fact impacted his cachet among SNP voters.

    149. Capella says:

      In the last two months before the 2016 election, the SNP’s lead over the Tories dropped by *17 points*, even though nothing really happened to cause it.

      That’s interesting. MSM? Cambridge Analytica? BBC? Facebook ads?
      Something must have happened.

    150. shug says:

      add to that if both the SNP and Indy Party stand on a vote will be taken as an instruction to negotiate independence there will be ne need for a referendum.

      Being a Scottish Parliament election the unionists cant not take part.

      A no brainer really.

      I want to hear what Joanna Cherry and A Salmond have to say on it.

    151. CameronB Brodie says:

      L. Campbell
      Scotland will never achieve constitutional justice through the British justice system, as British constitutional practice is unable to recognise or conform with international law, while maintain the tradition of Parliamentary sovereignty. Treaty law is international law, which stands above Westminster’s assumed authority. However, Westminster considers Britain to be one nation, so it will never acknowledge the principle of universal human rights. We are only entitled to British rights, which although sub-standard, are exceptional. 😉

      Legal Realism, Innate Morality, and the Structural
      Role of the Supreme Court in the U.S.
      Constitutional Democracy

      https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/46713673.pdf

    152. Merkin Scot says:

      Cat and Pigeons? Indeed.

    153. Mair grist tae the ‘get the current SNP apparatchik entryists n fruitcakes oot’ mill, cos it’s scary, ludicrous, arbitrary, subjective stuff:

      Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill

      https://beta.parliament.scot/-/media/files/legislation/bills/current-bills/hate-crime-and-public-order-scotland-bill/introduced/explanatory-notes-hate-crime-and-public-order-scotland-bill.pdf

    154. tollcross says:

      This is an insane idea.At exactly the moment when we’re beginning to win over the kind of thoughtful, strong-minded people that would not previously have considered independence, we’re going to alienate them with what looks like a seedy manoeuvre straight out of the Dominic Cummings playbook. Not to mention that we would split the independence movement asunder.

    155. schrodingers cat says:

      changed days indeed 🙂

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-limits-of-science/

    156. defo says:

      RM is both right, & wrong.
      Right to be concerned by not insignificant numbers of, let’s face it, mainly English peeps with resident status, and the fear they’re going to stay ‘best of both worlds ‘ with their votes.
      Alasdair Gray got pelters for telling truth, saying the difference in attitude, is of ‘colonists, & settlers ‘.

      The best of both doesn’t seem an easy option now!
      Assimilation, more so.

      He’s wrong though, those who live here, without exception, require to have agency.
      Democracy demands so.

    157. Tony Little says:

      I wonder when the wet-blanket over on ScotGoesPop will come along and try to rubbish the analysis.

      It’s all a theory as Stu says, but it does create the potential for an interesting few months as 2021 begins with Scotland well and truly screwed by Brexit, the potential of WM trying to claw back even more devolved powers, the imposition of a faux-UK single market, and a probable revision of the Scotland Act. If the SNP failed to respond adequately to these scenarios, they will deserve everything they get

    158. CameronB Brodie says:

      It would take me time to go through those explanatory notes properly, though I can be certain they are legal mince if they help to undermine a legal respect for biology and the human genome. An individual’s national identity, gender, and sexuality, are all bio-social in nature, so they can only be changed on paper.

      International Journal of Business, Humanities and Technology Vol.3 No.5; May 2013
      Is the Principle of Freedom Property in Hegel?

      Abstract
      The question of whether “the principle of freedom is property” or not is associated with the question of Hegel’s being libertarian or communitarian. In this essay, we will try to trace the concept of property in Phenomenology
      of Spirit
      (PS) and Hegel’s Philosophy of Right (HPR).

      In PS, we will show how property is, or is not, related to freedom in Master-Slave Dialectics, in Contradiction Principle and in Spiritual Animal Kingdom. After deducing that there is a much more strong liaison between action and freedom, we will analyse the property claim in Abstract Right of HPR.

      After concluding that property of Right is individualistic and possessive rather than intersubjective, we will see its effect in Hegel from the standpoints of Marxism and Liberalism.

      https://www.ijbhtnet.com/journals/Vol_3_No_5_May_2013/5.pdf

    159. David R says:

      Not wishing to be done in with hammers however what is the difference between now and previous elections where the suggestion of giving votes to a second pro-indy party was given a damn good f_off pill.

    160. callmedave says:

      O/T

      Neil Oliver dumped by NTS:

      Tell him we love it, by all means!

      https://archive.is/QOi1L

    161. B Griffiths says:

      Wouldn’t a Salmond or Wings party just split the pro-indy vote?

    162. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. OK, so you can be born one nationality and live all your life in another nation. Your origin of birth is still likely to influence your outlook, as culture is genetically transmitted and socially reproduced though family and public institutions.

    163. red sunset says:


      B Griffiths says:
      6 July, 2020 at 3:01 pm
      Wouldn’t a Salmond or Wings party just split the pro-indy vote?”

      B Griffiths – you are Pete Wishart and I claim my £5 reward

    164. Gregory Beekman says:

      I’m happy with this news and I’d definitely vote for Alex!!

      However…

      …I’ve occasionally posted on here before that we seem to be bashing Sturgeon because Salmond lost the referendum.

      You could hardly expect anyone taking over from Salmond to announce “We lost but the second referendum begins now!!”

      Salmond had it easy – Sturgeon’s had the hard job of leading us on under the humiliation of defeat. Let’s not give up on her just yet…

      (Though I’d still vote for Alex on the List – and if he stood in my area, on the constituency too!!)

    165. Beaker says:

      @shug says:
      6 July, 2020 at 2:14 pm
      “add to that if both the SNP and Indy Party stand on a vote will be taken as an instruction to negotiate independence there will be ne need for a referendum.
      Being a Scottish Parliament election the unionists cant not take part.
      A no brainer really.”

      Stop taking voters for granted. That’s what bad boys and girls do.

    166. schrodingers cat says:

      Beaker says:
      Being a Scottish Parliament election the unionists cant not take part.
      ————-
      actually, they can and do, snpnef, wullie renie msp, will be taking on the entire might of the uk libdem electoral organ, no minor entity, and they wont spend 1 brass penny anywhere else, (except perhaps dunbartonshire)

    167. Capella says:

      @ callmedave – Neil Oliver should never have been appointed to preside over the NTS. Given his well advertised views opposing the right of Scottish people to self determination, it would be hard to find a less appropriate custodian of Scottish cultural icons.

    168. schrodingers cat says:

      no, im not disapointed, im over the moon 🙂

      In an article for the Sunday Times, Sir John Curtice said: ‘Never before have the foundations of public support for the Union looked so weak.

      He said it is the first time in polling history that ‘Yes’ had been ahead for such a long period.

      ‘Support for the SNP is also at a record high.

      ‘This is the first time in polling history that “Yes” has been ahead over such a sustained period.

      ‘Support for independence is up three points on that recorded on average last year – and six points on 2018.’

    169. James Munro says:

      How would our wonderful impartial media cope with both the first and second party in Scotland both supporting independence and how could they possibly have the Tory and labour leaders front the political shows. Big problem for them.

    170. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.P.S. Sorry, but I’m very rusty and I’m trying to think on the hoof. An individual’s sexuality is bio-social in nature, but it is not fixed in space and tends to change over time. That’s why we need to maintain a postmodern and gender-sensitive approach to education, but do all we can to keep children safe from genderwoowoo.

    171. callmedave says:

      @B Griffiths

      Scottish Parliamentary elections use the Additional Member System (AMS). Under this system, voters are given two votes:

      one for their constituency, which elects a single MSP by first-past-the-post;

      and one for their region, which elects seven MSPs by closed list.

      ———————————————————-
      You have two votes in Holyrood Elections.

      Vote SNP for Constituency vote: FPTP 1 vote

      Vote ‘Wings type party’ on Regional (closed) list vote: 1 vote

      Is the idea:

      Your not really P Wishart…are you…Naw! 🙂

    172. James says:

      HYFUD is a wanker. He would love a new indy party to contest the constituency votes, split the movement and allow his unionist red and blue Tory heroes back into power.

    173. schrodingers cat says:

      @james

      in 7/8 regions, the snp with 850k votes elected 1 list msp, one. maree tod

      how can you split one?

      if you have one apple in one hand and nothing in the other, you have one apple?

      it would be a shame if voting an indy list party tore maree tod in half.

      hint

      it isnt going to happen

    174. Helen Yates says:

      To those who think there isn’t enough time for a new party to be created, have you forgotten Nigel Farage started the Brexit party in three months which was immensely popular and had he not stood aside for Boris he would have likely won the election.
      as for Stu leading a new party, as much as I admire him he is more useful to Scotland doing what he does best, never forget a politician isn’t as free to speak as a journalist is, Alex Salmond on the other hand is well known for his stance on Independence and anyone serious about Indy should support him if we could be lucky enough for him to return to politics, just to see Nicola having to face her mentor, the man who made her and put her where she is today on a daily basis fills me with pure joy.

    175. Ian R Murray says:

      An Alex Salmond led party with those numbers would be the opposition in Holyrood. FMQs would be awesome.
      Craig is correct that the SNP would have to shit or get off the pot.
      The media who always give the opposition too much air time would have to give Alex that airtime who could talk up independence the way the party in power never could.
      I love the idea!

    176. CameronB Brodie says:

      Helen Yates
      I’m not critical of your comment, though I’d point out Nigel Farage is backed by international corporate power and dark money.

    177. callmedave says:

      I think we have a new record today for corona virus reported deaths with all three of the colonies having no change from yesterday.

      As my chess programme oft says, after a tricky standard opening,

      “Now your on your own”

      Scotland……..today…..00……..Total…..2488…SUN + MAIL
      Wales………..today…..00……..Total…..1531…SUN +MAIL
      N. Ireland……today…..00……..Total……554…SUN +MAIL
      England………today…..16……..Total….no data….BBC
      ============================================================
      UK…………..today…..16.bbc….Total…*44235..*SUN +MAIL

    178. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Wouldn’t a Salmond or Wings party just split the pro-indy vote?”

      Oh for fuck’s sake.

    179. Stuart MacKay says:

      James Munro @3:28pm

      It will simply be the top “national” parties that are represented – Conservative, Labour, Liberal Democrats – same as always.

    180. John Moss says:

      Hi, this is just Scotland’s Independence Referendum Party is just looking for some publicity that’s all.

      They’re making a bit of a splash just to get attention and there’s nothing unusual about that. However I don’t think that there’s anything more to them than just that.

      I do think that the SNP need a push and some kind of list party is needed to bring practical pressure to bear otherwise nothing will happen or, rather, there will be more talk of referendums and plans B, C, D & E….

      It’s really time for action.

    181. Julia Gibb says:

      I left the NTS because of the appointment of Oliver. Their recent defence of Oliver and their shocking threat to close the Bannockburn site has guarenteed I will never return to their membership.

    182. Julia Gibb says:

      Even if Alex has no intention of standing I hope he says nothing for a few months to keep the Unionists spinning!

    183. Beaker says:

      @schrodingers cat says:
      6 July, 2020 at 3:15 pm
      Beaker says:
      “Being a Scottish Parliament election the unionists cant not take part.”

      At the risk of appearing pedantic, it was shug who said that.

      Conspiracy theory / scenario time:

      Assume that the SNP gain the required seats for a majority in the SP, and Alex Salmond has, say 20, list seats. Could (would?) constituency seat MSPs defect? If so, could the FM be unseated?

      (I’m quite sure someone has already thought this one out.)

    184. Effijy says:

      For a long time the NTS has been mismanaged by those taking
      A very nice salary.

      The shills on the board who appointed Neil I’m on my knees for England Oliver
      Will either get a very nice pay off and a new job for the boys or maintain their current
      job While managing nothing but tea breaks.

      The more Scottish Heritage lost the better the Westminster parties will like it.
      Scotland the nation they would like to see killed off.

      Once independent we will need to salvage what we can and dispose of those working against us.

    185. The SNP are going to lose power now Bojo has left theE.U.and instead of going for a ref., now they’d are wasting their time on the freaks of nature I hated Thatcher but she showedyou how to use,power when you had it while I welcome all these polls they will mean nothing. If they are not put to the test its like jam tommorow sort of. thing what about yesterday or today ???

    186. schrodingers cat says:

      @beaker
      looking back, i see it was shug who said that, apologies

      as to alex unseating nicola, i doubt he would want to do that.

      in the run up to 2016, he, no one backed tactical voting, no one. (except me if felt like) and because of that, the polls reflected this. that and the voters didnt trust the greens/rise etc

      the thing that is really startling about this poll is, now with backing from stu, 10 months out from the 2021 he, 50% of snp voters would consider tactical voting !!

      there is a certain tipping point in the yes movement, once enough people take a stand, the rest will follow suit.

      bear in mind, this is for a party and a person, alex, who either dont exist and havn’t decided to stand as yet??

    187. schrodingers cat says:

      @blairpaterson

      without a s30 from wm, nicola cant call indyref2

      the unionist controlled councils would run the polling places, ballot box’s etc, they would just ignore her and the sg

      feel free to post other suggestions as to what the sg can or should do

    188. Col.Blimp IV says:

      A meaningful pro indy presence on the regional list could spell disaster for the greens, If they do not get their tactics right.

      Most of their list members benefited from Lib-Dem tactical abstentions, last time round.

      A It removed a party that may have gained more votes than them from half of the regional lists.

      B) Cole-Hamilton and Rennies FPTP wins let the Greens in through on the lists

      C) Tactical abstention and water treading by Lib-Dems in favour of better placed Unionist candidates in the FPTP ballot also enabled Greens to take the place vacated by FPTP winners.

      I’m beginning to think that the best bet for the Greens (And all Indy Supporters) – would be to take a leaf out of the Lib-Dems book and carve the Regions up between SNP, Green, ISP and the Salmondini’s.

      The SNP could Stand in Regions where they already have List MSPs perhaps with a pro-Indy Buddy and leave rest of the field clear to Salmond and the small fry.

      But all under the banner of INDEPENDENCE.

      SNP – INDEPENDENCE

      GREEN – INDEPENDENCE

      ISP – INDEPENDENCE

      Alex Salmond for First President – INDEPENDENCE.

    189. schrodingers cat says:

      @johnmoss

      what action do you suggest?

    190. mike cassidy says:

      A Parliament that can’t pass laws is no Parliament at all

      That Gove and Co are little more than a wrecking crew is only too obvious from the way they’ve botched and sabotaged the Brexit negotiations. What is less well understood is that they want to shaft Scotland too.

      http://archive.vn/rLZZN

    191. schrodingers cat says:

      i think the rise of the idea of tactical voting on the list, is a genuine fill up for us

      there is a small chance of the snp losing 1 or 2 list msps, but there is a great chance to ensure that there is an indy majority in holyrood and no chance of a grand coalition of unionist parties taking power

    192. Rick H Johnston says:

      Like most indy voters I’d want to know who the potential 23 MSPs were and crucially what their attitude would be towards the SNP Govt. and the first minister.
      If they were a kind of shadow SNP that would reassure some but on the other hand maybe that’s not what’s needed.
      Lots to think about before May.

    193. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      “without a s30 from wm, nicola cant call indyref2”

      Pish.

      “the unionist controlled councils would run the polling places, ballot box’s etc, they would just ignore her and the sg”

      These councils would then be guilty of seeking to pervert the course of democratic justice.

      Try harder cat, you’re simply coughing up fluff.

    194. schrodingers cat says:

      Col.Blimp IV says:
      6 July, 2020 at 5:29 pm
      A meaningful pro indy presence on the regional list could spell disaster for the greens,
      ————

      correction, it WILL spell disaster for the greens,

      it didnt need to be this way, had they appealed to the yes supporters rather than pissing them off, they could have been propelled into the party of opposition.

      i repeatedly called for them not to stand candidates in constituencies, and to sit out the 2015 ge, or at least not to stand in marginals like the borders. they refused to listen. hell mend them

      they made their own bed, now they can lie in it

    195. schrodingers cat says:

      @cam

      i can only tell you what councillors, both unionist and snp have told me what would happen

      and the fact that the unionist voters would boycott the vote as well

    196. Andy Ellis says:

      @Rick H Johnston

      I imagine a large section of the support will come from disillusioned ex SNP members/voters/supporters horrified at one or more of their recent policy stances on #indyref2, GRA, new hate crimes bill, failure to tackle the woke Stasi in their ranks, stabbing Salmons in the back etc. Others may vote for them because they’re convinced by the maths that it will maximise pro-indy MSP numbers and eject yoon sentient spam like Murdo, Wells etc.

      I’m not that concerned who the individuals are to be honest (who knew who most list MSPs were previously?) as long as they’re not total roasters. It’s not as if those they are aiming to replace are exactly the cream of the political crop, so we’re not asking anyone to leap a particularly high bar. I’d hope there might be some weel kent faces among them, but I can understand why many would hesitate to want the job.

      With 10 months still to go, it ought to be possible to find alternatives who are head and shoulders above the incumbent yoon listers. Mind you, my cat could out-think most of them and it died last year.

    197. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      Do these councilors think they are above the law? If so, gonna be a grass?

    198. CameronB Brodie says:

      Andy Ellis
      Can I be critical? Let’s keep things real please, semi-sentient spam. TA. 🙂

    199. kestral says:

      “The SNP won’t give a toss, as long as they remain in power, which opinion polls suggest they will – with a majority next time”

      I’d be careful taking that as a given, I have spend 30 years voting and working for the SNP, and for the first time in my life I will not pound the streets delivering leaflets and really struggling to think that I could even give them my vote all because of Self-ID

      I have absolutely no issue with Diagnosed Gender Dysphoric people, i get that, I am woman, I am trying to be inclusive, I have a huge issue with self-id, the party I used to pound the streets for when they were lucky to get 10% of the vote, who kept trying year after year, for a belief in this land- and now i am faced with a choice, to vote for them or to not vote as there is no other party who isn’t on the woke train, I will vote ISP if they can stand a candidate, so be very careful if you think SNP is sound, they are not with us woman, we just watched the conservatives outsmart the woke.. big style…..shame that the SNP can’t find a better middle ground

    200. Andy Ellis says:

      @SC & CBB

      SC is correct. As the lumpen gradualists in the SNP are glued to the Gold Standard S30 authorised referendum process, any large scale boycott by yoon makes it immediately suspect in the eyes of the international community. We’d end up in the Catalan situation.

      It is also quite feasible to see local authorities – particularly yoon controlled ones – refuse any cooperation with or involvement in a referendum held with no S30 Order, and no legal certainty that it is legal. All it takes is one yoon with deep pockets to threaten to sue them for misuse of public funds. You might be confident some would risk jail time for the cause, but I’m not so sure.

    201. Mags says:

      Under SNP the only things that will happen is the GRA, the hate bill, stripping our rights, woke etc. SNP seriously needs to be cleared out from sturgeon down but like I said on my first post she has to much power and will not give it up by allowing elections so don’t know how that’s going to work out? SNP are serving themselves and not the country, they and the tories are tied to the same stick as there is no real opposition party to keep them under control. For those that talk of civil disobedience that’s not going to happen this is the UK were talking about not the yellow vests in france. Folk here bitch whine and complain but do not follow up with action they have no balls no backbone and yellow bellied cowards.

      I voted for SNP before but did not vote for them on the last election due to GRA and few other issues. As they stand just now and the road they are going down Im finished with them.

      Sturgeon is not the angel is makes out to be but folk cant or wont see that she dosn’t walk on water. Im disappointed in her.

      Under the SNP Scotland is going nowhere.

    202. One_Scot says:

      The more I think about it, the more I realise there needs to be a second Pro Independence party, as I don’t believe Scotland will become Independent through the SNP alone.

    203. schrodingers cat says:

      @andyellis

      they are only glued to the Gold Standard S30 authorised referendum process because they have never believed there was a possible majority in an election.

      the idea being that starting from say 46%, during a concerted campaign they could swing the support over the 50%

      support in the last poll for the snp was 55%. but, we are a long way out from the he, and polls can chane. i suspect nicola will continue support for an indyref2 with a s30 up until the campaign for he2021 kicks off, then review the polls and review the position closer to the time

    204. iain mhor says:

      @David Hooks 2:02pm

      Ninja’d! 🙂
      I must have crossed your post there at about 2°clock, sorry – but yeah, that was kinda my takeaway also.
      Though it doesn’t negate the premise of the main article I suppose.

    205. CameronB Brodie says:

      Andy Ellis
      There is truth in what you say, though I’ve still got a sneaky feeling the SNP are getting their legal advice directly from HMG.

      Legal Theory / Volume 20 / Issue 02 / June 2014, pp 133 – 156
      COMMON-LAW JUDICIAL REASONING AND
      ANALOGY

      http://www.corteidh.or.cr/tablas/r32516.pdf

    206. Proud Cybernat says:

      “It is also quite feasible to see local authorities – particularly yoon controlled ones – refuse any cooperation with or involvement in a referendum held with no S30 Order, and no legal certainty that it is legal.”

      The SNP position is that there will not be a 2nd IndyRef unless the Bill to hold one has been given Royal Assent. With Royal Assent then the IndyRef Bill is perfectly legal and BritNat controlled councils cannot boycott it otherwise it is they who will be breaking the law.

      Whether Royal Assent can be given to the IndyRef2 Bill without WM’s agreement (i.e. without S30 transfer of power) is the big question and the one that is soon to be tested in the Court of Session.

    207. schrodingers cat says:

      @cam

      “without a s30 from wm, nicola cant call indyref2”

      so you agree it isnt pish?

      glad you changed yer mind

    208. Bill Hume says:

      I’m a bit upbeat this evening……because Scottish independence is coming.
      It’s not as far away as some folk on here believe.

    209. schrodingers cat says:

      @PC

      we still cant force the unionists voters to participate

    210. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Andy Ellis

      You forgot the SNP voters, supporters and members who were never fans of the EU.

      The SNP were once a solidly anti-EU outfit and even after a couple of terms of Winnie Ewing cheerleading for it, Salmond had to lay his brand new leaders bollocks on the line by announcing his new Idependenceineurope policy ahead of the National Council meeting that was yet to approve or reject it … some might say the beginning of the end of democracy in the SNP.

      The SNP’s actions and inaction after the Brexit vote and up to the beginning of Covid have been somewhere between atrocious and unforgivable – And if an opportunity arises to punish them without harming the cause of Independence.

      I’m sure many will grasp it with both hands.

    211. Bob Mack says:

      It actually is a win\win situation for anybody disappointed by the SNP current lethargy. Voting for a list party with your second vote fires a warning shot to Nicola that we will not be treated lightly.I

      Although we must keep the SNP in power with our constituency vote, we show them there is another show in town we can back if necessary.

      Meanwhile we hope Boris does not scupper the whole plan with a takeover of Holyrood.

    212. Dan says:

      Re. Councils boycotting.

      From Page 13 of 29 page PDF
      https://beta.parliament.scot/-/media/files/legislation/bills/previous-bills/referendums-scotland-bill/introduced/policy-memorandum-referendums-scotland-bill.pdf

      Alternative Approaches
      49. It would be possible to establish a different set of referendum rules to those set out in the Bill, varying the organisations involved in administering and regulating the poll, and any of the specific arrangements set out in the Bill. Given the number of processes involved, there is a large variety of ways in which the arrangements could be varied.
      Varying the approach from existing electoral practice has a number of drawbacks. Establishing a separate set of administrative practices for a referendum significantly increases the risk of voter confusion, where practices differ from those used at elections.
      Establishing new organisations to run and regulate referendums would duplicate existing structures and would not be a good use of public funds. It would also increase the possibility of confusion in the administration of the poll. On that basis, establishing conduct rules and processes that are, as far as possible, similar to those used at elections is considered by the Scottish Government to be the best approach.

      Referendum Bill as passed.
      Extract from Page 10 of 172 Page PDF (page 6 of Document)
      https://beta.parliament.scot/-/media/files/legislation/bills/previous-bills/referendums-scotland-bill/stage-3/referendums-scotland-bill-as-passed.pdf

      (9)The council for the local government area for which a counting officer is appointed must provide, or ensure the provision of, such property, staff and services as may be required by the counting officer for the carrying out of the counting officer’s functions.

    213. Proud Cybernat says:

      “we still cant force the unionists voters to participate”

      That’s a given for any group in any vote. But the result stills stands. So long as the IndyRef Bill has received Royal Assent then it is legal and the BritNats can boycott it all day long – the result will stand because the vote has been legally constituted. The Republicans boycotted the 1973 Irish Border Poll but the result stood nevertheless because the vote was legally constituted. The BritNats would do well to keep that in mind.

    214. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      If you think voting ISP in great numbers will get rid of Murdo Fraser, I would think again.
      In Mid Scotland and Fife, the Tories got 4 regional seats. Even with a decent ISP turnout, if Fraser is first on the Tory list again, even if the Tories lose 3 of their seats, he will still be selected.
      Realistically, I can’t see them NOT having at least a couple of seats in that region.

    215. schrodingers cat says:

      @dan

      regardless, it would still risk descending into a fiasco if boycotted by the unionists

    216. schrodingers cat says:

      @bdtt

      even with the best will in the world, tactical voting wont get rid of all the unionist list msps

      however, it could get rid of a large number of them and potentially propel an indy list party into the posion of official opposition

    217. schrodingers cat says:

      @PC

      im not sure why you mean by “stand”, without unionist voters participation, i doubt it would be recognised by anyone else outside scotland

    218. twathater says:

      I am the same as everyone else , happy that you have done the polling and very happy that you have used Alex Salmond as the head of the new party

      I know Alex Salmond and his wife have had an extremely hard time over the last few years and they are entitled to their rest and recuperation and I do not begrudge them that , but I have said previously on a couple of occasions that ANYONE who regains the independence of Scotland will forevermore go down in the annals of history who would not be proud of that achievement who would not be proud of that immortilisation

      Their names will be taught to our schoolchildren as the enablers and facilitators of our modern country , the ones who have wrested future generations from the enslavement of a pernicious corrupted union , the ones who have enabled our Scottish resources to be utilised to benefit our future generations

      I would ask you Mr Salmond to return to the FIGHT to FREE your country from its oppressors and to exact a justified revenge on those who sought to besmirch your name and DESTROY your LEGACY

      If you would consider this challenge sir I would request that you adopt Mr Stuart Campbell as your Chief Of Staff as like yourself he takes NO PRISONERS

    219. callmedave says:

      @Proud Cybernat

      That was running through my thoughts also about the ‘non’ SNP councils having to comply because of the Bill going through Holyrood.

      I was hoping someone like you or Capella would post to reassure us that has been foreseen.

    220. Proud Cybernat says:

      “im not sure why you mean by “stand”, without unionist voters participation, i doubt it would be recognised by anyone else outside scotland”

      There were virtually no Nationalist votes in the 1973 Irish Border Poll and yet the result was accepted as the will of the people. The Nationalists in that Poll had the right to vote – or not. The vast majority chose not to vote. That was their choice. But they could not claim the result should not stand simply because they did not exercise their right to vote. To paraphrase an old saying: If you don’t use it – it’s a dead cert you’ll lose it. And they did.

    221. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      That’s not what I was suggesting, I was simply submitting to having to accept Scotland’s cultural ambivalence/hostility to the rule-of-law. This doesn’t surprise me, with the clown-shoes judges Scotland’s judicial system accommodates. And the unwillingness of those that practice Scots law, to liberate their legal practice from legal subjugation by Westminster.

      Try to accept sound legal advice. National law should not be used to over-rule international law, as is the habit of British constitutional practice. We don’t need Westminster’s permission to exert our legal identity, that’s like slaves asking their master if they can go free. The common law applies to Scotland as it does to England. It is simply unfortunate for Scotland, that Westminster appear content to overlook this legal obstacle to the expansionist ambitions of contemporary English Torydum.

      Please stop trying to tell folk what what, unless you can support your position in law. TA.

    222. Proud Cybernat says:

      “I was hoping someone like you or Capella would post to reassure us that has been foreseen.”

      Every Bill that passes through Holyrood then goes to HMQ for Royal Assent (it doesn’t go to WM – tho that is what they are effectively now trying to do with their latest shenanigans). Once HMQ signs on the dotted line then the Bill becomes the law of the land.

    223. Oscar says:

      Watched STV News there,,,it is utter pish.

      Absolute tosh.

      Pull the plug on this anti Scotland mince.

      On a par with BBC Scotland.

      And went heavy on the Arts hand out by the UK government. Scotland to get £97 Million pounds of a £ 1.5 Billion total hand out.

      Something not quite adding up there.

      And the theatre luvvies who run our Scottish theatres seem to have english accents.

      So before I gave them a penny, I would ask them their opinion on Scottish Independence.

      If it was in favour of it then they get the money,,,if they are Unionists up here holding us back, I would tell them they are getting no hand out and to pack to heir bags and head home to England.

      No more english immigrants up here putting a spanner into the Independence campaign.

    224. Ian R Murray says:

      The Unionists have the same opportunity to participate as Scotland did in the Brexit vote.If that kind of democracy was acceptable then it is equally acceptable this time
      Shoe Foot Other

    225. Proud Cybernat says:

      “No more english immigrants up here putting a spanner into the Independence campaign.”

      Fortunately the vast majority of Scots aren’t anti-English racists such as yourself. Wind yer neck in.

    226. schrodingers cat says:

      i am not arguing we dont have the right, im merely pointing out that with a referendum with only 40% turnout will be ignored by wm and by everyone else

      where as a 50%+ result in the next he will be much more difficult to ignore. i think even carlaw would struggle defending wm ignoring such a result

      even then, wm could still ignore it

    227. Proud Cybernat says:

      “even then, wm could still ignore it”

      Indeed they could just ignore the result of a YES victory. And ScotGov the simply declares independence. What will WM do then? Send in the tanks? They might. And we will resist because, at the end of the day, you do not fight for your national freedom if, ultimately, you’re not prepared to fully see it through. No one ever said gaining independence, especially from WM, was ever going to be easy. History teaches us that.

    228. Ian R Murray says:

      I don’t think election turnout should be a factor.
      If everyone has the same opportunity to vote then Use it or Lose it.
      If it is a fair and democratic process, if you do not vote you are giving the other side a better chance to win

    229. Sinky says:

      Not surprisingly BBC Reporting Scotland TV news has long puff piece on National Trust for Scotland but fail to mention Neil Oliver’s dismissal and the reasons for it including loss of membership subscriptions or fact that they sacked many employees rather than putting them on furlough.

      Also no mention of weekend poll putting support for SNP and Indy at over 50%… although the Nine news on BBC Scotland will be discussing this.

    230. Oscar says:

      Proud Cybernat

      Is that an order???

    231. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      Shaping constitutional law on the back of consultative referendums, sets you on the path to perdition (see Brexit).

      Do you still insist morality is fantasy, and reject Natural Law as a vital component of constitutional jurisprudence?

      Critical Reasoning and Writing (Levin et al.)
      5: Inductive Arguments
      5.6: Legal Reasoning and Moral Reasoning

      By employing a healthy skepticism and dosage of reasonable doubt, we can be sure that what we believe has been hard-earned through careful and cautious analysis. In this discussion of moral reasoning, we will learn how to decide what to do.

      In this sense, moral reasoning is the most practical part of the process. When we reason about morality we build arguments, just like when we reason about anything else. But arguments involving moral propositions have to be constructed in a special way.

      This is partly to help us avoid the Naturalistic Fallacy. But it is also to help ensure that our arguments about morality are consistent….

      https://human.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Philosophy/Book%3A_Critical_Reasoning_and_Writing_(Levin_et_al.)/05%3A_Inductive_Arguments/5.06%3A_Legal_Reasoning_and_Moral_Reasoning

    232. schrodingers cat says:

      @PC

      i think we have to travel to the bottom of the democratic route,

      once we get there, you’re right, it may not be the end of the road.

      but talk of civil disobedience before we get there is unneccesary

    233. schrodingers cat says:

      @cam
      have you changed yer mind about tactical voting too ?

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/five-hard-facts-about-the-election/

      CameronB Brodie says:
      21 April, 2016 at 2:45 pm
      crazycat
      Oops. Thanks for the correction. I also reckon forecasting the result of tactile voting, is akin to playing darts while wearing a blindfold.

      I will be giving both my votes to the SNP, btw, even though I live in Edinburgh.

    234. Proud Cybernat says:

      “but talk of civil disobedience before we get there is unneccesary”

      It can hardly be described as “civil disobedience” if WM sends in the tanks.

    235. Oscar says:

      BBC Scotland also ran with the UK government hand out to the Arts and the drip down to the colonies.

      And again when interviewing the Luvvies who run the Scottish theatres they are clearly english immigrants who will more than likely vote against Scottish Independence.

      There has to be a way of barring these english Unionists from voting in indyRef2.

    236. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, same link as above.
      https://tinyurl.com/y7gk2pbf

    237. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      Your argument is the same as dave’s and the other Toryboy, that’s ancient history. Found a respect for the law yet?

      The Art of Legal Reasoning and the Angst of
      Judging: Of Balls, Strikes, and Moments of Trut

      https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1097&context=njlsp

    238. schrodingers cat says:

      @PC
      It can hardly be described as “civil disobedience” if WM sends in the tanks.

      lol, thats true, but there is an order in which reaction we take if we wish to bring the public along with us

      as i said before, we are coming down to the wire now and I dont know how wm will react, i hope for the best and fear the worst.

      for the moment though, wm is trying to stop us from voting on this issue

      i’m merely pointing out alternative routes for us to have this vote

      after which, your guess is as good as mine

    239. CameronB Brodie says:

      sorry….Moments of Truth

      (Dia)logical Reconstruction of Legal Justification
      https://journals.openedition.org/revus/2463

    240. Dan says:

      @s. cat

      Re. “tactical voting”. Times change and the electorate has become more politically educated in the run up to, and post 2014.
      Plus there’s more shite policies on the horizon since those days which also mean floating voters are now up for grabs.

      That’s twice you seem to be trolling folk’s past comments from years back to point score.
      Can send you a ball of wool if you’re needing to exercise yer claws! 🙂 Just bantz by the way.

    241. Sensibledave says:

      Oscar 6.43

      … a good test of whether one is being a dick head r****t , is to read back something you have written but change the word “English” to say Pakistanis or say Polish … and see how it looks?

      You should try it.

    242. schrodingers cat says:

      @cam

      ancient history ?? considering todays post i think it very relevant

      you were wrong then and havnt been right since

    243. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      In what way was I wrong, what was the context of my comment, and what was my intention?

      Do you deny a respect for Natural Law is essential to the principle of universality, and a respect for human rights?

    244. schrodingers cat says:

      @dan

      i campaigned hard for a tactical vote in 2016 and was ridiculed for it many times

      and for all my efforts, i failed to convince enough people.

      seeing todays post has really given me a boost, it is quite incredible turn around from the polls prior to he2016, and we are still 10 months from the he

      if people wish to view this as a means of getting back at the snp, great, i have no problem with this, the result will be the same, ie, a whole heap of unionist list msps will get their jotters

      btw, they will be reading this polling question by stu and will be crapping themselves 🙂

    245. robbo says:

      You tell them lass. Pity about the buffering in vid.

      https://twitter.com/thepileus/status/1279813562718924800

    246. Oscar says:

      Sensible

      No thanks

      I like it the way it looks now

      Thanks for your input anyway

    247. schrodingers cat says:

      @dan

      re ball of said wool?

      yes please

    248. Oscar says:

      Sensible

      Are you an english man staying in Scotland?

      If so then go with the flow.

      And if it is not for you Sensible, then the border is unguarded,,,,off you pop back to the mother land.

    249. schrodingers cat says:

      @sd

      agreed oscar is a troll, probably a reincarnation of joseph

    250. Beaker says:

      @Oscar says:
      6 July, 2020 at 7:37 pm
      Sensible
      “Are you an english man staying in Scotland?
      If so then go with the flow.
      And if it is not for you Sensible, then the border is unguarded,,,,off you pop back to the mother land.”

      Better ask Mike Russell to join him then. Anti-English sentiment causes endless troubles, and is certainly xenophobic. Ask Nicola for advice. Nationalism based on race / country of origin doesn’t work.

    251. Oscar says:

      Beaker

      WTF is that post of yours all about?

      If someone has not settled in a certain country, then it is only natural to suggest to that person that he would probably be better off back in his home land

      That is just good solid advice.

    252. Oscar says:

      Beaker

      For all the good Mike Russell is doing, he would probably be better off moving to england.

    253. Asklair says:

      Getting my moneys worth from investing in WOS.

    254. Ed says:

      Rev Stu wrote:

      ‘I enjoy insulting idiots… But “Yes, definitely” is not an ambiguous option.’

      It is answering the question ‘Do you think you might…?’. So the answer in its fullness is “Yes definitely, I think I might vote for it”, NOT ‘Yes definitely, I would vote for it.’

      Thanks for replying.

    255. Derek Aitken says:

      Very exciting news. I would join his new party and leave the SNP.

    256. callmedave says:

      O/T

      Ennio Morricone. RIP.

      A bit of culture. 🙂

      Danish National Orchestra.

      Here’s two I often play.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enuOArEfqGo&list=RD4niv522mbtM&index=2

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efdswXXjnBA

    257. Dan says:

      @s. cat

      FYI I defied the “Both Votes SNP” mantra, possibly influenced by your efforts amongst others back in the day to inform folk to actually study their specific region for the most suitable way to cast their votes.
      I guess I must be a freethinker and wasn’t taken in by a short simple slogan, even though I’ve still got enough of those fuckin yellow pens lying around everywhere I look to do me till the 3021 elections.

      Don’t frame it as voters wanting to get back at the SNP (or Greens for that matter). They created the void* by chasing specific policies that in the scheme of things are not currently the most significant issues needing addressed.
      You’ll mind the old “I didn’t leave Labour, Labour left me.” saying.

      * I’ve stated previously that it may even be a deliberate ploy as a vacuum needs filling. 😉

      Oh, I’ll bring a ball of wool made out of my dug’s hair to the next Indy outing for ya.
      Just hope the Wings Hairy String doesn’t try and copulate with it…

    258. Types of nationalism,

      1 Ethnic nationalism
      2 Civic nationalism
      3 Expansionist nationalism
      4 Romantic nationalism
      5 Cultural nationalism
      6 Revolutionary nationalism
      7 Post-colonial nationalism
      8 Language nationalism
      9 Liberation nationalism
      10 Left-wing nationalism
      11 Liberal nationalism
      12 National conservatism
      13 Schools of anarchism which acknowledge nationalism
      14 Religious nationalism
      15 Pan-nationalism
      16 Diaspora nationalism

    259. CameronB Brodie says:

      “If someone has not settled in a certain country, then it is only natural to suggest to that person that he would probably be better off back in his home land

      That is just good solid advice.”

      Is that actually someone expressing Enoch Powell in 21st century Scotland? I think it is. 🙂

    260. schrodingers cat says:

      new scottish band

      defo not unionist

      give them a listen

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI-ap8NPUlI&feature=youtu.be

    261. schrodingers cat says:

      @dan

      lol

      I’ve still got enough of those fuckin yellow pens lying around everywhere I look to do me till the 3021 elections.

      thanks fur the ball of wool 🙂

    262. PacMan says:

      Quite a balanced and nuanced view of the constitutional debate from the British press.

      https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/coronavirus-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-boris-johnson-brexit-independence-a9603296.html

      I wonder what is wrong with them?

    263. schrodingers cat says:

      @dan

      my point wasnt why people vote for an isp, whether they want to take a dig at the snp or want to remove unionist msps, or indeed both, the point is that they do vote tactically on the list

      if we had 2 parties standing eg 4 regions each, and we can convince the majority of snp voters to back them, we could relegate the tories and labour to 4th and 5th respectively 🙂

      cheap seats at the back for 2nd hand carlaw ?)

    264. PacMan says:

      Oscar, different name, same old pish.

    265. PacMan says:

      robbo says: 6 July, 2020 at 7:33 pm

      You tell them lass. Pity about the buffering in vid.

      https://twitter.com/thepileus/status/1279813562718924800

      While I don’t want to divert attention from the impassioned speech in the tweet but we live in a shallow, superficial, insincere society. People weren’t clapping for the NHS, they were clapping to get their picture in Facebook. It’ll be the same as this BLM carryon. All these white woke warriors on these protests will be saying George who in a months time.

      I’ve always tried to see the best in people but when looking back at that, it really has hit home to me how dumbed down some sections of our society is. It’s the same about these ‘Thirsty Scots’ who in the middle of a pandemic drove down south of border to get a pint in a pub. FFS, alcohol has been freely available to buy in the supermarket throughout the lockdown.

      It really is disheartening.

    266. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      I suggest your party would significantly improve their support and its’ loyalty, if they were not intent on introducing genderwoowoo into Scots law.

    267. schrodingers cat says:

      results from south region 2016

      constituency seats
      snp 4
      tory 4
      lab 1

      list votes

      Snp 120217
      lab 26072
      tor 100750
      green 14773
      lib 11775

      list seats
      snp 3
      tory 2
      lab 2

      with constituency seats
      snp 4
      tory 4
      lab 1

      list votes with snp votes going to the isp

      Isp 120217 60109 30055 15028 7514
      lab 26072 13036 6518
      tor 100750 20150 10075
      green 14773
      lib 11775

      list seats
      isp 5
      tory 1
      lab 1

      🙂

    268. PacMan says:

      callmedave says: 6 July, 2020 at 8:00 pm

      O/T

      Ennio Morricone. RIP.

      That’s sad to hear.

      Morricone’s music was very distinctive and innovative using unusual instruments, compositions and vocals which added atmosphere to the films that used his scores. Even traditional sounding scores he had done like from the Thing worked well.

    269. jfngw says:

      What are the BBC going to do now with all that David Starkey and Neil Oliver content, consign it to history or bury it in the vault for archaeologists to dig up sometime in the future.

    270. Effijy says:

      I think most of us on WoS would give our 2nd vote
      To an Independence Party even if it was headed up
      By a tin of John West Salmon.

    271. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      schrodingers cat

      Yer wee band is excellent could listen to more of that.

      Pac-Man callmedave

      Morricone sad sad loss he will be missed a rare talent.

    272. mike cassidy says:

      Oh, dear!

      The woke are after the anglo-saxons now!

      Rather, the mainstream use of ‘Anglo-Saxon’ began in the 18th and 19th century based on a nationalising agenda linking those who chose to identify as such with an entirely imagined past of racial and ethnic homogeneity.

      http://archive.vn/Bg9Fx

      And Morricone was the best.

      https://twitter.com/musicma99070168/status/1280056882401550343

    273. Famous15 says:

      There is a huge commitment by the MSM to brand Yessers as anti English.Just watch their nonsense attempts to get the FM to say something they can brand as anti English.The numpties at the border at the weekend were either black ops or brain dead.

      Suddenly you see anti English posts here. I say suddenly after the good poll for independence.

      Black ops are so obvious.

    274. jfngw says:

      Calling Klaxon Carlaw, calling Klaxon Carlaw, put away the Monet and gives us a comment on this will you.

      https://twitter.com/hoddles10/status/1280194896339652609

    275. CameronB Brodie says:

      mike cassidy
      An historical perspective that is sensitive to the sociology of institutional knowledge, isn’t woke. Proper woke supports cultural diversity, but does not deny biological reality.

      <b<Cultural and social analysis
      https://europa.eu/capacity4dev/evaluation_guidelines/wiki/cultural-and-social-analysis-0

    276. Ottomanboi says:

      [Separatism, in any country, poses a threat to the very existence of the National State and every government has the right to introduce special measures to prevent its territories from achieving political independence, especially in situations where protests receive clear financial and material support from foreign powers, such as the protests in Hong Kong, encouraged by several western countries.

      All Western democracies call for strict exceptional measures when they detect threats to national security. Exceptional measures in the United States are still in force today due to the September 11, 2001 incidents, with hundreds of terrorism suspects being imprisoned without the right to defense each year. Recently, in the face of protests for the independence of Catalonia, the Spanish police used exceptional measures, acting violently against the demonstrators and, equally, there was no international commotion. In fact, when legality and normality are not enough to guarantee order and there is a real threat to the state, appealing for the exception is the right of any government]
      Extracted from the following link.
      https://www.globalresearch.ca/british-government-encourages-mass-emigration-hong-kong-affect-china/5717893
      Could Scotland become an ‘exception’ too?

    277. robbo says:

      White House saying “the world is looking at US as leaders in fight against covid”.
      D Trump as band of eegits live in an alternative universe.It’s certainly not the planet earth we’re currently experiencing.

    278. Colin Alexander says:

      Stu Campbell

      I get what you’re saying: there is no guarantee SNP support would remain so high and no guarantee they will win an outright majority. There’s no guarantees in politics. The crystal ba’ is getting polished, so I can’t tell you my detailed prediction.

      —————————————————–

      I still think one indy big name should contest Sturgeon’s constituency. Hint. Hint.

      Then I think she might sit up and take notice.

      Of course she would get in on the List if need be. But it would be a major embarrassment to her and the SNP, if indy supporters switched votes to her pro-indy challenger.

    279. robbo says:

      Doesn’t need a voice over right enough.How much do these fannies get paid at newspapers these days? Is journalism for all the old dunces as they were called back then? I might have got into journalism masel lol

      Nowt against journalists Rev stu, lol. But these dafties couldnae huv been in your class at school,that’s for sure.

      https://twitter.com/JaneyGodley/status/1279094985414127622

    280. CameronB Brodie says:

      mike cassidy
      I think you’ve actually put your finger on the cause of Scotland’s peril. British nationalism is extremely cavalier in its’ attitude towards institutional knowledge and legal epistemology. At least when it comes to exploiting Scotland and our resources.

      There is an absence of authenticity to contemporary British constitutional practice, as Brexit represents an English expansion of constitutional identity.

      Using Institutional Ethnography to Examine the Social Organization of Absence, Jaime McCauley
      https://social-epistemology.com/2014/07/23/using-institutional-ethnography-to-examine-the-social-organization-of-absence-jaime-mccauley/

    281. CameronB Brodie says:

      sorry…,represents an expansion of the English constitutional identity.

      I don’t wont to be accused of being anti-English. It’s only English gammondum and the poor they duped, that supports Brexit.

    282. robbo says:

      lol

      We he did get from his bumbling old dad i suppose.

      https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson_MP/status/1279088587192111109

    283. Oscar says:

      The Indy List Party should name it’s self the Pro-Democracy Party.

      The english media can’t get enough of them in Hong Kong.

      They can do no wrong.

      They even smashed up a shopping centre and an airport terminal and the english media was drooling at the mouth at them.

      Organise a huge Indy Rally in London and call ourselves the Pro-Democracy Party.

      If it’s good enough for Hong Kong Demonstrators it’s good enough for Scots Demonstrators.

    284. Papko says:

      “If it’s good enough for Hong Kong Demonstrators it’s good enough for Scots Demonstrators.”

      I think its because the system of freedom and democracy in Hong Kong is the Union Jack.

    285. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, I should take a bit more time in composing comments, but by then my comment’s semiotic positioning will have changed, in context of the thread’s narrative, and the impact of my message will be lessened. Did I take that too far? 🙂

      (correction)….An historical perspective that is sensitive to the sociology of institutional knowledge, is proper woke, as it supports cultural diversity, but does not deny biological reality.

      International Journal of Qualitative Methods Volume 16: 1–11
      Conducting Analysis in Institutional Ethnography: Guidance and Cautions

      Abstract
      Institutional ethnography (IE) is being taken up by researchers across diverse disciplines, many who do not have a background in sociology and the antecedents and influences that underpin Dorothy Smith’s distinctive IE method.

      Novice IEers, who often work with advisors who have not studied or conducted an IE, are at risk of straying from IE’s core epistemology and ontology. This second of a two-volume set provides a broad overview to approaching analysis once the IE design and fieldwork are well under way.

      The purpose of two-volume series is to offer practical guidance and cautions that have been generated from my experiences of supervising graduate students and my involvement in reviewing and examining IE work that has gone “off track.”

      With a particular focus on the practicalities of conducting analysis, the paper includes examples of the application of IE’s theoretical framework with techniques for approaching and managing data: mapping, indexing, and building preliminary accounts/“analytic chunks.” I suggest these techniques are useful tactics to work with data and to refine the formulation of the research problematic(s) to be explicated.

      Keywords
      institutional ethnography, analysis, practical advice, methods, novice researchers

      https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1609406917734472

    286. Liz g says:

      Dan @ 8.01
      EXCUSE ME….Wings Hairy String has standard’s

    287. Tartanpigsy says:

      Definitely interesting. There are those Alex might put off, but he’s the greatest attribute the Yes cause ever had, or will have in our lifetimes.
      The game’s afoot. Let’s see how it plays out.
      As an SNP member and someone who doesn’t really trust all the wee Indy parties springing up to deliver much, if anything, I’d like to see him go for it.
      I’m not keen on all the look at me types wanting a piece of the action. Afterall, it’s actions that speak louder than words.
      Bring it On, as someone once said.

    288. Effijy says:

      Westminster outraged at China breaking an agreement on Hong Kong constitution.

      Is that the place the UK used to make their money from opium.

      Are the Chinese breaking a constitutional agreement in the same manner as England is doing to Scotland?

      Is China ignoring International condemnation in the same way Westminster is ignoring the International community regarding the Chagos Islands?

      Are the Chinese Police in Hong Kong arresting innocents in the same way as London Police arrest
      Black female athletes with babies?

      Westminster was angrily claiming Russia had tried to interfere in UK elections when the have no right to interfere in another nations domestic business unless it’s the UK interfering in Hong Kong,
      Libya, Iraq or Afghanistan.

      Thank God the country next door to Scotland has democracy like China or we could be like Hong Kong.

    289. Dan says:

      @Colin Alexander

      From a few weeks back…

      Probably a bit of an ask but…
      Get every SNP voter in Glasgow Southside Constituency that wants to see some real progress on the Indy front put their names to a petition to lever that issue into a prominent position in the next SNP Holyrood election manifesto, or else their votes will go to the other Pro-Indy candidate standing in the constituency.

      C’mon Glasgow Southside, you could be the catalyst that leads us to an Indy Scotland, nae pressure like. 🙂

      @Liz g

      Indeed, the WHS must maintain high standards as I’ve been intimately close with that slim brunette and have had no need to access healthcare for any itching or rash since the liaison. 😉

    290. schrodingers cat says:

      james kelly rubbishes stu’s poll

      i think kelly misses the point, today, i read back of the posts and comments btl in the weeks before the 2016. the real reason the tactical voting didnt succeed was because no one supported the tactic. that was evident in the polls. i am not a psephologist so i cant comment on question format, but what I did see in stu’s poll today, was momentum finally getting behind the idea.

      scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2020/07/more-on-that-astonishing-panelbase-poll.html

    291. Gary45% says:

      Many comments on the Hong Kong situation, the empire defends a colony,
      its that simple.
      That is how the media will spin it.

    292. Benhope says:

      Great article Rev Stu and gives us all a boost.

      A pretty good and interesting read btl until inevitably CBB has to intervene with his usual guff!

    293. Oscar says:

      Why has it taken until the 2021 Holyrood election for somebody to think of having an INDY List Party???

      This engenius move should have been thought of at the very beginning of Devolution.

    294. Oscar says:

      And on the subject of China.

      What the fuck are england going to threaten China with.?

      I mean, come on.

      england is a two bob, run down shit hole on the fringes of Europe.

      China just laughs at skint england

      And will probably pity it more than feel any anger against it.

      Like the noisy stinkin tramp lying in the gutter shouting at the passing crowd,,,,and no one is listening,,,,or cares.

    295. robbo says:

      Oscar. Can you have a word with your mate Foxtrot ! Give us peace eh.

    296. Oscar says:

      Robbo

      I beg your pardon sir

      What do you mean?

      Playing to the gallery are we???

    297. Oscar says:

      Robbo

      I didn’t know you bought the rights to Wings Over Scotland from the Rev

      I do apologise

      Since you are the new site owner you will have every right to tell people what they can and can’t do on YOUR website.

    298. Oscar says:

      Robbo

      Waiting on my next instructions from you sir.

    299. Oscar says:

      Robbo

      Or should we just call you Boss from now on?

    300. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m afraid I don’t agree with Dr Craig Dalzell’s opinion, as Brexit can’t be justified through constitutional jurisprudence. There is no longer any legal substance to Westminster’s claim of authority over Scotland. So the door is unlocked. all Scotland needs do is turn the handle and walk across the threshold of constitutional emancipation.

    301. HYUFD says:

      Oscar The UK isn’t threatening China, just taking in British Overseas Nationals from Hong Kong. The only ones threatening China are the US and after their recent border dispute, India

    302. CameronB Brodie says:

      Benhope
      It’s nice to be appreciated. 🙂

      Leiden Journal of International Law Volume 28, Issue 2 June 2015 , pp. 189-210
      The New Legal Realist Approach to International Law

      Abstract
      The New Legal Realist approach to international law builds from a jurisprudential tradition that asks how actors use and apply law in order to understand how law obtains meaning, is practised, and changes over time. The article addresses the jurisprudential roots of the New Legal Realism, its core attributes, and six important components in the current transnational context.

      In the pragmatist tradition, the New Legal Realism is both empirical and problem-centred, attending to both context and legal normativity. What is new is the rise of transnational activity that gives rise to an enlarged scope of transnational problem-solving through international law in radically new ways across areas of law, and the growth of empirical study of these phenomena.

      The article concludes by addressing the potential risks of the New Legal Realist approach in terms of scientism and relativism, and it responds to them.

      https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/leiden-journal-of-international-law/article/new-legal-realist-approach-to-international-law/74E6552AF5B049B5EE40FFB8192DD4E4

    303. Beaker says:

      @Colin Alexander says:
      6 July, 2020 at 9:52 pm
      “I still think one indy big name should contest Sturgeon’s constituency. Hint. Hint.”

      Now that really would be interesting to watch. Wouldn’t surprise me if it happened either.

    304. HYUFD says:

      Papko Therefore if it is good enough for Chinese riot police and the Chinese military on your logic it is surely good enough for British riot police and the British military too?

    305. CameronB Brodie says:

      Benhope
      Given the handle you go by, I thought this might interest you. Please feel free to fill your boots, or not. It’s entirely your choice. 😉

      Ethical Theory and Moral Practice volume 22, pages 187–204 (2019)
      Hope, Dying and Solidarity

      https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10677-019-09985-7

    306. Oscar says:

      Hyfud

      I know the UK isn’t threatening China,,,it is tiny insignificant engerland who are trying to threaten China,,,,

      But the mighty Chinese just laugh at them.

      engerland couldn’t defeat one if China’s cities, never mind the whole Chinese Nation.

      And if it came to all out war, I might just dig out my old Chairman Moi Uniform and help them defend their homeland against these pesky englishman.

    307. CameronB Brodie says:

      Want to understnd how power is organised?

      Examining the Institutional Ethnographer’s Toolkit
      https://socialiststudies.com/index.php/sss/article/download/23749/17633

    308. schrodingers cat says:

      Ethical Theory and Moral Practice volume 22 🙁

    309. CameronB Brodie says:

      Some probably mocked fire.

      Phenomenology and natural law: the vindication of the moral order in the works of Scheler, Hartmann, and Hildebrand, with a note on Voegelin
      http://sites01.lsu.edu/faculty/voegelin/wp-content/uploads/sites/80/2015/09/Kinneging.pdf

    310. defo says:

      jfngw says: at 8:46 pm

      “What are the BBC going to do now with all that David Starkey and Neil Oliver content, consign it to history or bury it in the vault..”

      There’s a high capacity memory hole at their new Saville facility .

    311. Skybolt says:

      Could they work together?

    312. call me dave says:

      Wifie from Barhead travel representing their industry there, on radio shortbread, giving a bit of a rant about quarantine and the Scottish Gov dragging it’s feet on approving the ‘list’ of countries that the WM Gov and NHs England have decided are safe to travel to and from.

      Citing “FM’s flippant remark to have a ‘stay-cation’ in Scotland” as unhelpful dithering!

      Not a happy bunny! 🙂

    313. Dan says:

      Simple and concise.

      https://twitter.com/alanferrier/status/1280181924317876224

      In other news, apparently it will be challenging to reopen theatres in time for the crimbo panto season due to covid transmission risks.
      I’m not sure why there’s such a impetus to pay to get into local theatres during the festive season, when the UK has become an all year round pantomime to the global theatre, with every UK citizen effectively being co-opted in as an interactive actor.
      Which raises the questions of can I now join actors’ union Equity and get paid for my unwilling part in this UK shitfest of a production?

    314. Republicofscotland says:

      Well the numpty Neil Oliver has finally got the message and stood down as NTS president, Oliver claims he eas going to do so anyway, aye right.

      Meanwhile as usual the failed car saleman and blowhard Jackson Carlaw has got it wrong again on the handful of folk at the Scottish border with England, it wasn’t some sort of anti-English protest as Carlaw and the idiot Humza Yousaf thought it was, infact two of the folk were English, one Polish and anothers wife is from Indian stock.

      They were urging folk with caravans not to come to Scotland yet due the virus still being pretty prevalent in England.

    315. Dogbiscuit says:

      You get a morale boost from conjecture?

    316. Rm says:

      @BenHope, You either choose to read Cameron’s information or not, some of it is Awfa heavy reading but most of it tells normal folk what we’re up against, without people who have the passion like Cameron, Scotland hasn’t a chance.

    317. Dogbiscuit says:

      Opium to the Chinese vaccines to the British.Empire builders who can be bothered by them ? It’s for our own good after all.

    318. Dogbiscuit says:

      Automourn for Morriconi.

    319. DundeeDancer says:

      Maybe Alex should join in with the ISP party, that would attract a lot of votes.

    320. Ottomanboi says:

      This is what Wokery is doing to American societal harmony.
      https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/while-protesters-celebrate-christopher-columbus-statue-being-thrown-into-the-harbor-police-asked-to-arrest-those-who-tore-it-down/ar-BB16mEyb
      Columbus, the greatest evil since….whatever you can think of off hand.
      The SNP is not yet in the state the American Democratic party finds itself, in that it is somewhat behind the British Labour party but led by the current team it is definitely stuck in the same rut of factional and doctrinaire mishmash.
      The rainbow a symbol of nature’s elemental beauty has become a device of ugly fanaticism, sexual dysmorphia and paraphilia and latterly, state propaganda.
      Diversity, re-defined.

    321. Graeme says:

      I think there’s a general problem in politics with name calling, politicians & journalists etc are far too quick to brand others with names like racist, homophobe, transphobe, antisemite for no other reason than having a different opinion from them, ie the small peaceful protest on the A1 at the weekend was branded by Humza Yousaf (who thinks nobody should have a different opinion from him) as racist, when asked if she agrees Nicola Stugeon answers “Yes” well of course she agrees because if she didn’t she risks being branded a racist herself, so now the protest is officially racist.

      Say anything against Israel and your an Antisemite, call a person with a penis and a beard who thinks he’s a woman a man and you’re a transphobe or a TERF We need to stop this name calling and branding people just because you don’t agree with them.

      Back to Humza Yousaf, if he’s gonna brand these protesters Racist then he needs to prove it and if he can’t do he should apologise or resign

    322. Effijy says:

      RE The Travel Industry has been hit harder than most people can imagine.
      A close friend has their own very small agency and due to working 7 days a
      Week in the months leading up the virus outbreak was looking at having a
      Record year.

      The agency makes no money until the client pays in full just before their departure date
      But they have the comfort that commissions will ramp up as the Spring/Summer approaches.

      All of the money they expected is gone with the holidays being cancelled and now the clients
      Are chasing them for the return of their deposits so they do their best to chase up their clients
      Cash and sit on hold for an hour at a time trying to speak to the main operators.
      The operators have reduced staff available due to Covid and are swamped with an unprecedented
      Number of calls.

      The agent these days has to pay a fee to the banks when clients have paid their deposit by credit
      Or Debit cards and some of the Main travel operators that they chase up for their clients are abroad
      Or use premium rate phone numbers.
      The cost of being on hold for an hour makes each call cost £5-6.

      Not only are they working very hard twice for no money over the last 8 months
      But they still have their rent, utility, phone and credit card fees to pay from zero income.

      It is tragic but I support Holyrood’s decision to delay Air Bridges as it very well can escalate the number of Covid cases and deaths here in Scotland.

      In matters of life or death you must take every precaution there is.

    323. Mike d says:

      Call me dave 8.24am. Were’nt barrhead travel anti indy back in 2014. F**k em, let them suck it up. Not so better together now, eh.

    324. Republicofscotland says:

      I find it galling that the buffoon Johnson has said the UK will take 3 million Hong Kongers, yet his Home Office department is treating asylum seekers and refugees in Scotland with contempt, herded into squalid accommodation forced into dingy rooms with substandard foods and with no money and no rights, is not how you should welcome folk into the UK.

      One asylum seeker from Iran fleeing the wrath of the Iranian regime was stopped by a security guard from going outside the dingy hotel, the asylum seeker remarked it reminded me of the oppressive regime back home.

      It may well be the British government that’s accountable for these terrible conditions and actions, but it still reflects poorly on Scotland.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18565158.asylum-seekers-claim-prevented-talking-media/

    325. SOG says:

      “Pps; Legal action may follow because of libellous comments in Wings article (above)”

      I love the smell of a crowdfund in the morning.

    326. Polly says:

      These poll results seem to have been a boost for morale to quite a number of folk on here, myself included, which just shows how demoralised and uninspired we have been for quite a while by the SNP’s stance on independence.

      Yes it would be great to lose even a few unionists from Holyrood, but even better at the minute is sending a shot across the bows of the main independence party’s galleon which is close to running aground. I always voted for them on the list, initially, since they needed all the help they could get, and since they became more popular, I did it to increase their overall vote share since any lessening on that, even with higher constituency voting, would be used against them. Now it would be good to have another Independence Party to vote for, not just as a protest vote either, but as a sign of Scottish politics maturing. The unionist parties are going the other way of course and increasingly coalesce around the conservatives, they might even end up as one party.

    327. Mike d says:

      Graeme 9.43am exactly, like the tory mp heappey down here in 2017 who told the schoolgirl to f**k off back to Scotland. Thats just banter. Tell an english person to f**k off, thats racist. Aye right.

    328. Effijy says:

      I am really enjoying Piers Morgan on Breakfast TV.
      I had a bad impression of him previously but I must
      Take my hat off to the way he has held the atrocious
      Handling of the Covid crisis by the Tories.

      So much has he torn apart every Tory who would dare
      To appear that they have now banned anyone from appearing.

      PM Bojo’s latest attempt of blaming others for his bumbling incompetence
      He has laid the blame for the Covid Care home deaths on staff and owners?

      Various representatives of the Care homes tore into Boris blaming that Covid
      Positive elderly patients were released from hospital and dispatched into Care Homes
      In their thousands.

      They requests test kits and PPE for the homes but requests were denied by government.

      This Tory government has neglected its Duty of Care and it’s incompetence had
      Sent residents and staff to an early grave.
      They have now gone on to insult and demean their heroic actions within the Care Industry.

      A Doctor who needlessly lost her Father in a Care Home is Now crowd funding to take the government To court for criminal negligence.

    329. Bill McLean says:

      Remember the outrage in the British press when foreign newspapers dared to criticize the behaviour of the British army and their allies in Northern Ireland – but Britain clearly feels it may criticize China for it’s attempts to maintain it’s right to rule and maintain law and order in Hong Kong! A few thousand protesters in HK want democracy and independence – so do we In Scotland! I sympathize with those who want independence to run their country their way. I lived in HK for periods in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s and can assure those such as HYUFD that the Chinese in HK in no way would prefer a return to colonial rule rather than be part of China – this is clearly what the British media try to imply! Some may remember the huge riots and bombings in HK in the late 60s/early 70s – I was there as it happened. Those riots were an attempt to get rid of British rule. Noticeable in the British media coverage that the non-protesters have no voice as far as they are concerned.I heard another Tory clown on Radio 4 the other night claiming “British moral standards” – that will be like, inter alia, Britain ignoring the UN resolution on the Chagos Archipelago! As Galloway famously said “the British raise hypocrisy to the gold standard”! Who could argue?

    330. Effijy says:

      I believe the imbecilic owner of Barrhead Travel was a Bill Munro
      He shot his company right in the foot by his anti independence diatribe
      Back in 2014.

      He sold the company to an American organisation a few years back.

      Barrhead used to come up trumps in staff surveys suggesting they
      Were a great company to work for and all bosses were brilliant.

      That was because the boss stood over you while you filed in the form
      and people who called a spade a spade were referred to as unmemployed.

    331. Republicofscotland says:

      “I am really enjoying Piers Morgan on Breakfast TV.
      I had a bad impression of him previously but I must
      Take my hat off to the way he has held the atrocious
      Handling of the Covid crisis by the Tories”

      Effijy.

      Morgan, might be on the money with regards to Johnsons handling of the virus, but don’t be fooled by him, he staunchly opposes Scottish independence.

    332. Bill McLean says:

      Effijy – agree with you about Munro but when I lived Dunfermline are the staff at Duloch were scornful of him. We always found Barrhead Travel a great company to deal with. Used them because my Gran lived in Barrhead. In the end we are all a bit trivial, ha ha! Good luck

    333. HYUFD says:

      Bill McLean What Hong Kong people want is a continuation of the ‘One country, two systems’ China promised after the handover from Britain and it is now seeking to disregard.

      I am fine with no British interference in China’s dealings with Hong Kong in return for China letting the British government deal with Scotland without interference

    334. Bill McLean says:

      What the people, YOU SEE on telly, want is the “one country, two systems” – I have no problem with that at all although i’d prefer a majority view not the British govrnment’s! I have no problem with apirations of the people of HK living in their own independent country either! I’m fairly sure that the majority of Hong Kong Chinese prefer to be part of China I don’t think you are so stupid as to miss my point about British hypocrisy!

    335. Effijy says:

      HYFUD

      What you want is Britain being allowed to deal with Scotland
      Without Scotland interfering!

    336. Lothianlad says:

      HY -FUD!

      ‘I am fine with no British interference in China’s dealings with Hong Kong in return for China letting the British government deal with Scotland without interference’

      “deal with Scotland’??

      FUCK OFF!!

    337. Republicofscotland says:

      “I am fine with no British interference in China’s dealings with Hong Kong in return for China letting the British government deal with Scotland without interference”

      HYUFD.

      You really are deluded if you think Westminster won’t interfere in Scottish affairs to do with Scottish independence, among other things, they’ve been doing so for centuries now.

    338. mike cassidy says:

      I see the Fudster is finally getting a handle on the trolling game.

      I am fine with no British interference in China’s dealings with Hong Kong in return for China letting the British government deal with Scotland without interference

      That’s good.

      Let’s face it.

      You can’t move in Scotland without tripping over a Chinaman interfering with the British government’s rule.

      And it’ll get worse as 3 million Hong Kongers arrive.

      Unless they take them all down in England so they can’t interfere.

    339. Bob W says:

      Has anyone else noticed the increase in undercover Chinese agents about? I didn’t, but there was a suspicious lack of crispy sweet and sour chicken fried rice in my local supermarkets.

    340. Polly says:

      Rm says:
      7 July, 2020 at 9:05 am

      Cameron’s links, going by the one he sent me, they may be heavy going at times and he has a scatter gun approach which can miss the mark, but to me reading his link and on from his link, finding out more about the author, her other writings and her detractors has connected quite a few dots I was unaware would lead in a more or less straight line… somewhere, but it did.

      Cameron, I see Judit Sándor was involved in the NERRI project which I remember reading about (not understanding much) in 2014 since the limit to my knowledge of science was the one higher in biology I took which wasn’t arts based like the rest. She teaches in the gender department of CEU and one course in comodification of the human body which includes not only surrogacy and sale of eggs but commercialisation and states ‘The prohibition of forms of surrogacy that do not entail financial gains is not self-evident. The worrying fact that, in addition to father and mother, a third person is also involved in reproduction, is no longer deemed a strong enough argument for prohibition.’ She wrote a paper in May about ethics during pandemics and how the prospect of the state financing artificial reproductive has gone during this utilitarian period. In 2019 she wrote ‘As sexual intercourse loses its significance in reproduction, it is quite possible that ethically more neutral and less problematic cells, such as skin cells, can pave the way to designing and programming reproduction.’ They’re not only talking about a male womb, but one you may set up in your living room
      https://www.thebump.com/news/artificial-womb-incubator-design

      Concepts at the moment can become reality and as is said Balzac created the 19th century and I’m sure all those writers from Rostand on who wrote of reaching the moon created an impetus to the Apollo programme. We do need strong ethical foundations and gatekeepers, better than some we’ve had in the past. Thanks Cameron.

    341. callmedave says:

      @Mike d

      Yes they were a better together outfit back then. Never used them myself though.

      PS:Just back in there from the shopping and had the pleasure of listening to Kaye on ‘Your Call’ inviting folk to call in about their’experience’ of the NHS cutting back on ‘normal’ work being restricted due to the virus.

      It did not go well, in the 15 minutes I heard there were 5 calls in succession extolling the virtues of the service and care they had received. 🙂

      It all started yesterday when a caller had berated the lack of her health care since the virus started and someone at Auntie wie a kilt must have thought it would be a jolly wheeze to have as a call in topic this morning.

      PS:
      I see the ‘Eye of Sauron’ has moved away from the Scottish landscape to focus on the care homes in England and has now discovered the real scandal that exists darn Sarf.

      Poor Boris in trouble for sticking his toe into controversial waters and implying blame lay with the private care owners.

      He deserves all the scrutiny he and his incompetent chums get.

    342. Oscar says:

      The english don’t want China spying on them because it would uncover the grotesque corruption that goes on in a daily basis in their stinkin capital city of London.

      The english have a fuckin cheek pulling up anybody for international interference.

      They interfere in every country in the World, along with their big corrupt mate America.

      The english hypocrisy is mind blowing.

      GCHQ was not built to accommodate asylum seekers.

      It was built to eavesdrop on every country in the world.

      So this pish coming out of england is a deflection tactic for the hard of thinking.

    343. chicmac says:

      That is a WOW!

    344. Willie says:

      To change the subject slightly I’ve just read the quotes by Humza Yousaf turning the protest about viral transmission as being led by hate fuelled racists.

      I rarely, if ever make comments about anyone’s ethnicity. What I do make comment about is people’s politics and in that I find Yousaf’s comments riddled with the bias and bigotry that would suit Trump.

      Well here’s a comment for the odious Yousaf who would stir unjustified anti English – anti Scottish sentiment. Why don’t you flick off and play your racist indignation somewhere else.

      No one wants anti English anti Scottish sentiment and we don’t need a foul mouth like Yousaf to stir it up. What we want is sound virus containment.

    345. Beaker says:

      @Mike d says:
      7 July, 2020 at 9:44 am
      “Call me dave 8.24am. Were’nt barrhead travel anti indy back in 2014. F**k em, let them suck it up. Not so better together now, eh.”

      Barrhead Travel would still be in the exact same situation if we were independent. COVID is like Boris – it doesn’t recognise borders.

      But glad to see you are so supportive of the staff who are losing their jobs.

    346. MaggieC says:

      CallmeDave @ 11.21 am

      I agree with what you said about “ Call Kaye “ . Kaye was not a happy girl this am as most callers were supporting our Scottish NHS . I know that there can be problems with our Nhs but I will always defend it as they’ve saved my life quite a few times due to various health problems .

      At the Scot Gov daily we’ve now got Glenn Campbell asking his stupid questions re Barrhead Travel and testing for folk travelling into Scotland from abroad and now an eejit from Stv ( missed his name ) who’s asking his question from Edinburgh Airport , what the hell is he doing at the airport if he’s not travelling anywhere ??

    347. What is wrong with you on here no Incomers should be allowed to vote on Scotland’s freedom it is not their country only those who are born and live in Scotland should have the right to vote no one else Cameron did not let E.U.citizens living in the U.K. Vote in the E.U. Ref., for obvious reasons so it can be done also no postal votes but if we have to have them they must be counted in Scotland let’s close the door to all the unionist loopholes

    348. jfngw says:

      @HYUFD

      Is that you complaining about a country not abiding by a treaty they have signed, the eternal hypocrite I think we can conclude.

    349. MaggieC says:

      Me at 12.51
      It should read at Scot Gov daily * briefing * ,

      God all these * journalists * and I use that term loosely about all of them are still banging on about foreign travel plans for Scotland . Do they not listen to the answer given to the previous question instead of asking the same stupid question again .

    350. ahundredthidiot says:

      Beaker @ 12:28

      Exactly – and half of them WILL be indy supporters, although in my book it doesn’t matter if none of them are indy supporters – anyone losing their job just two months after the biggest stock market crash in human history gets my sympathy.

      folks like mike d do more harm than good, they just cant keep the bile down.

    351. Ottomanboi says:

      The Brits were kicked out of Hong Kong, as they were kicked out of India, covered in glorious ignominy.
      However, London still feels it has something to proffer hence the occasional interference in the affairs of the sub continent and its pathetic messing with people’s minds in HK.
      China’s treatment of the Turkic and Tibetan minorities is colonialist neo-Stalinist and ought to be widely condemned, but isn’t. However, what China has learned is that if you’re a big bully you can get away with just about anything, like the Brits in the 19th century. Paradoxically, it may be the British model that drives the attitude to HK. Do your worst but you will suffer.
      This time the Chinese are defending their own territory and from a far stronger position and do not need dual standard, diplomatic opiates. If Beijing were being caustic it might point to Scotland as classic exemplar of stones and glass houses.

    352. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m afraid Scotland is going nowhere fast if we follow the guide of experts such as Dr Craig Dalzell, who appears to consider Britain an exceptional legal entity that is separate from the rest of the world. He also appears to have zero appreciation of constitutional law.

      Constitutional jurisprudence contains three types of law, positive, natural, and socioeconomic. Brexit’s legal justification is devoid of the latter two, and relies entity on legal authoritarianism. As such, British constitutional law no longer has the moral force to contain Scotland. So by all means follow those who lack legal understanding, but all that will do is get you deeper in shit. Scotland just need to vote for indy then tell Westminster to bolt. The rest of the world will support us, or risk undermining international law and order.

      Constitutional law attempts to faithfully describe the state of nature, which Brexet rejects through totalitarian, authoritarian, legal practice.

      Full text.

      Journal of Transcendental Philosophy | Volume 1: Issue 1
      Nature at the Limits of Science and Phenomenology

      1 Introduction
      In this paper, I will argue that the reflective limits of transcendental philosophy are the key to understanding what it means for nature to be the ontological ground of both natural science and transcendental reflection.

      Nature cannot be identified solely with what shows up in experience of the world, i.?e., with beings that are manifest in either world-experience or transcendental reflection, for nature is never simply coincident with what is manifest. It is, instead, a condition of the manifestation of beings, whose own mode of being is to be identified with processes of phenomenal manifestation in general.

      Nature does not simply consist in what is manifest to consciousness – in some worldly being, in the totality of worldly beings, or even in a manifest “transcendental being” – rather, it consists in processes of manifestation that simultaneously constitute transcendental subjectivity and the world as a unified domain.

      In this way, phenomenology finds a place for nature as a principle of ontological grounding, allowing for what I will call a phenomenological naturalism.1

      https://www.degruyter.com/view/journals/jtph/1/1/article-p109.xml

    353. robbo says:

      Anyone with a twitter account should ask JACKSON CARLAW,MURDER FRASER and the rest of their lot for comment on this.

      https://twitter.com/devisridhar/status/1280459376650838016

      Plenty of rage for 10 folk standing at a border with signs having a stance on not importing more corona,but not this against lovely lass trying to give advice for months.Also their rage at her last week for missing out one word in a sentence last week,that she apologised for and explained.

      Sick twat Carlaw.

    354. Capella says:

      What we have here is two countries one system – that imposed by the big bully neighbour.

    355. Capella says:

      @ robbo – there’s an interesting tweet in response to that attack on Devi Sridhar –

      My sister works in reviewing social media trends. Theres a huge network across the world to move from democracy & truth & rights to authoritarian gvts funded by the same ppl who funded trump, vote av, voted leave, now want to fund right wing in NZ … You are truth & light!!

      https://twitter.com/GSheralee/status/1280472868908945410?s=20

    356. callmedave says:

      Jings!

      Fish doesn’t gobble the tasty worm on the hook news. 🙂

      Opportunistic journalist invites the FM to comment on the apparent rise in support for the SNP in the polls and invites her to make a comment on ‘going for Indi-2’ and tries to disguise it by conflating the divergence of Scotland going it’s own way on health policy as a reason. 🙁

      What did he expect her to say…FGS! Try harder next time.

    357. MaggieC says:

      While this post is about Alex , Here’s a nice video from yesterday from Alex to a family who’ve just had a baby . It brought a tear to my eye just watching it and as the comments say he’s looking well and I do hope he and his family and friends are keeping well and I send him my very best wishes.

      https://mobile.twitter.com/ScotiaIndyref2/status/1280222880576540674

      And in his own words “ The dream will never die “

    358. callmedave says:

      Hmmm! I was wondering what had happened to his plan:

      Wales Ineos 4×4 vehicle plant ‘suspended’ in Bridgend

      http://archive.vn/OkN9D

    359. Oscar says:

      My fellow Scots are gradually waking up to the fact that england thinks nothing of them or their country.

      I think it has a lot to do with the Covid19 lockdown.

      It gave Scots the opportunity to listen to more news bulletins on Sky News, BBC News and ITV News.

      They see that when they are reporting on “across the country” they are actually talking of england.

      They are starting to notice that Scotland hardly gets a mention.

      They notice the patronising two minute fly through when reporting of Scotland, Wales and N Ireland.

      They notice ALL sport related news is about sport in england.

      These things matter and slowly add to the realisation that Scotland would be better off as an independent nation.

      So one good thing to come out if the lock down is that more and more Scots are having their own lightbulb moment and that being hitched to the detested english isn’t such a good idea after all.

    360. MaggieC says:

      CallmeDave @ 2.30 pm

      Did all the brexiteers really expect the car industry to stay in Uk after we leave the Eu . LOL

    361. callmedave says:

      Well I’m surprised!

      The ‘better together’ and ‘brexit’ supporter Jim Radcliffe: 🙂

      New Welsh factory at risk as Jim Ratcliffe’s Ineos looks to make cars in France

      https://archive.is/cncNV

    362. Republicofscotland says:

      The Westminster government is to, or already has, resumed selling arms to Saudi Arabia even though a court ruling a year ago banned them from doing so, due the Saudis, of which their pilots that are trained here in the UK, have used them to kill over 8,000 Yemeni civilians.

      The ruling barred the Tory government from issuing licences to build Typhoon jets for Saudi Arabia, however, that ruling has been deliberately ignored, as BAE continues to fulfil Saudi arms deal contracts.

      The Saudi pilots are trained at RAF bases in England and Wales, such as Coningsby and Cosford. In some cases the training lasts four years.

      The UN’s world food programmes claims that 20 million Yemeni’s are suffering from malnutrition and starvation due to the Saudis coalition bombing of Yemen.

      Out of the 21 countries that Westminster has trained at RAF bases in the UK, the majority of them are from oppressive regimes such as Jordan and Kuwait.

    363. callmedave says:

      The usual colonial covid-19 results are in and numbers darn Sarf have emerged in the MSM papers. UK number unofficial yet.

      Scotland……today……01…….Total……2489…BBC
      N. Ireland….today……00…….Total…….554…BBC
      Wales………today……03…….Total……1534…BBC
      England…….today…..*36…….Total….*28940..*SUN+MAIL
      =========================================================
      UK…………today…..*40…….Total…..44276..*SUN+MAIL

    364. Andy says:

      I wonder why those who on the one hand claim that its a waste of time for the SNP to win election seats in the Scottish and Westminster Parliaments because it doesnt further the cause of Independence then turn around and claim that if they won the seats instead it would because somehow the UK state would listen to them instead? or if not what? Civil War? Insurrection? Terrorism? Whats the game plan here? The UK state can say no referendum forever and a day no matter who is sitting in what seats in whatever parliament we only got the first one because they were so far ahead in the polls and we’ll only get an agreement if they get back to that state.
      So unless we’re actually talking outright affirmative action in the event that the Democratic process is shut off then its all a futile exercise in musical chairs.

    365. Lothianlad says:

      Republic of Scotland ,

      Thanks for exposing the immoral Westminster government. We need to keep informing people of the disgusting Westminster behaviour, particularly in relation to arms sales and human rights abuses.

    366. CameronB Brodie says:

      Polly
      That’s an excellent bit of investigation from you. I’m too rusty to state an opinion on the matter you raise, but this is the sort of stuff I was involved with over a quarter century back. Justifying public policy through phenomenological and legal analysis. So there is still a lot on relevant knowledge trapped inside me, just waiting for the right trigger. 😉

    367. Julia Gibb says:

      @Blair Patersen

      I detest people like you trying to promote a squalid rascist message like that. Regardless of it being a deeply held belief or if you are a Unionst troll.

      Your obscene views have no place in the Scotland I’m fighting for. If we cannot win then we should look to our arguements and not blame others.

      Tell me the difference when the voting rules once excluded women and those who did not own land.
      Who is on your list to be banned.

    368. Sandy says:

      Callmedave @ 2.13pm.

      What I admired is the extremely tactful way Nocola told the “times” journalist to f..k off.

    369. CameronB Brodie says:

      Blair Patersen
      I’m with JG, so I suggest you get yourself a google account and you can read this without downloading the pdf. 😉

      The Justification of Value Judgments
      This article discusses the justification of value judgments. It distinguishes between monological approaches, according to which justification is a single a-temporal argument, and procedural approaches according to which justification is a process stretched out in time, and very often consists of a kind of dialogue between the proponent of a thesis and an audience which the proponent aims to convince.

      The article uses the procedural approach to elucidate how an argument can be presented in, for example, a scientific paper. Within the category of monological approaches, a distinction is made between argumentation in the form of a deductively valid argument or at least something similar, and argumentation based on balancing reasons for and against a thesis.

      Special attention is paid to the issues that arise from the fact that value judgments are supervenient, can be universalised and presuppose a standard which has no truth value. Comparative value judgments, stating that one alternative is better than some other alternative, or even the best, also receive special attention.

      https://www.academia.edu/6144484/The_Justification_of_Value_Judgments

    370. susan says:

      I feel for the people in those countries we have/are bombing. But I will not contribute to charity for them . It’s not on , give with one hand, bomb with the other. I don’t know, I think charities are now part of the problem.

    371. jfngw says:

      @robbo

      It may not have been a missed word in the context the Prof is an American and in her country anyone who took the side of another country would be described as anti-American, it was the natural language for her to use in the circumstances. She corrected because I suspect she didn’t realise the extent of xenophobia in British Nationalists.

      The Tory party then triggered a pile on, it’s how British Nationalists behave, trying to drive her out.

    372. callmedave says:

      @Sandy
      Ah! ‘The Times’ I though so but wasn’t 100% sure.

      It was a nicely done thing, tempting though it might have been to take the bait!

      I’m also almost sure I caught a glimpse of a twinkle on her tiara
      but can’t swear to it. 🙂

      Oops!

      PS:

      Just caught a news flash there and the covid-19 numbers are changed, not for the better either. 🙁

      Scotland……today……01…….Total……2489…BBC
      N. Ireland….today……00…….Total…….554…BBC
      Wales………today……03…….Total……1534…BBC
      England…….today…..*36…….Total….*28940..*SUN+MAIL
      =========================================================
      UK…………today……155…….Total…..44391… BBC official

      That’s quite a difference from 15:00 hrs. 🙁

    373. Graeme says:

      @Julia
      Give the faux outrage a rest nothing Blair said is racist or Anti English

      It’s perfectly reasonable to say only people born in Scotland and living in Scotland should be allowed to vote in an independence referendum it’s common f**king sense.

      What other country would allow nationals from the very country they’re voting to secede from a vote in an independence referendum, as far as I understand about 70/75% of English nationals who voted in 2014 voted NO and if it wasn’t for that we would have won.

      When these people looked at the ballot paper in 2014 they didn’t see “Should Scotland be an independent country” they saw “Should England give up it’s northern colony”

      English people uniquely from any other nationality had their own agenda which was not in the interests of Scotland they were voting in the interests of their own country which is perfectly natural.

    374. Effijy says:

      Jim Ratcliffe of Ineos is the UK’s richest man being
      Worth over £21Billion.

      He has move to Monaco to live in order to save on Tax.

      He is 68 years old.

      If he only earned interest in future he could spent £2 Million per day
      On himself and still be a Millionaire on his 100th Birthday.

      He wants even more money and if it means making people redundant,
      avoiding taxation that would help the NHS or holding Holyrood to ransom
      Then that’s absolutely fine with him.

      Brexit is designed to make the UK rich richer so why wouldn’t a greedy selfish
      Sod not be all for it.

    375. CameronB Brodie says:

      Continuing to suggest British constitutional law continues to hold legal force over Scotland, suggests a perspective that is empty of legal appreciation and which is unable to defend democracy. Brexitania is not a social democracy, so Scotland is morally entitled to simple walk away, if we choose to do so.

      “This has become an English national party, a Brexit party, not really better than Farage’s party.”

      MEP Philippe Lamberts, who’s in the Brexit Steering Group, says “there’s no negotiation” with the UK – and that Boris Johnson wants a no-deal Brexit to happen.

      https://twitter.com/channel4news/status/1169317992586518528?lang=en

    376. Republicofscotland says:

      ,”Thanks for exposing the immoral Westminster government. We need to keep informing people of the disgusting Westminster behaviour, particularly in relation to arms sales and human rights abuses”

      Lothianlad you’re very welcome, where to start there are some many instances of Westminster abuses.

      In 2003 the British army sent unqualified junior Royal Military Police (RMP) officers from its Special Investigation Branch (SIB) unit.

      Senior army commanders pressured the junior officers to drop any investigations against British troops, some were for killing Iraqis others for human rights abuse. It wasn’t until seven months into the illegal war in Iraq that experienced (SIB) officers found their way into Iraq. The BBC reported that no British soldier accused of human rights abuse in Iraq were likely to be prosecuted, out of the thousands of allegations against British troops in Iraq very few actually made it to court, with fewer still prosecuted.

      A leaked 2005 document written by the then head of the (RMP) Brigadier Colin Findlay acknowledged the dismal failure of the (SIB) in Iraq, senior (SIB) officers believe the order to send unqualifed junior officers to Iraq in 2003 came from the Office of the Provost Marshal, headed up at the time by Brigadier Maurice Nugent.

    377. CameronB Brodie says:

      Graeme
      I appreciate we face growing resistance from an increasingly large demographic that is likely to oppose indy, but who are you to judge who gets a say in our democracy? There will be newcomers who are fully behind our ambitions, and it is hard to support democracy by removing rights (see Brexit).

      I am supportive of a minimum period of residence before being able to vote on constitutional matters, but we don’t have the time for that if we want to escape Brexit, and the harm it will cause to Scotland’s civic society and constitutional identity.

      How do constitutions
      constitute constitutional
      identity?

      https://academic.oup.com/icon/article-pdf/8/3/671/1728225/moq025.pdf

    378. Beaker says:

      Staying loosely on topic, they could have come up with a better name than ISP. Although it might attract computer geeks who wouldn’t understand the word “Politics” if engraved on a brick and dropped on their head (at least from high enough).

      Or is the plan on the lines of “Alex Salmond for First Minister”, to get to the top of the ballot paper? Saying that, the Tories / Labour might respond using the word “Aardvark”.

      Or the Aaar Unionist Pirate Party…

      I’ll get me coat…

    379. Rm says:

      How can Scotland win an independence referendum if 75 percent foreign nationals who stay in Scotland, you know are going to vote again the same way it doesn’t make any sense and it’s unfair right from the start for Scots who are born here they haven’t another country to go back home to, if england decided to have an independence referendum they certainly wouldn’t let the Welsh, Irish or the Scots have a vote no chance.

    380. schrodingers cat says:

      beaker

      the new party could be called Alex for 1st minister, even if he has retired 🙂

    381. schrodingers cat says:

      @rm

      we dont need to

      polls show 55% support for snp, if we get that in next election, job done. scotland becomes independent

    382. MaggieC says:

      On radio Scotland just now , we’ve now got John Beattie going on and on about foreign travel arrangements and having folk phoning in to ask them if they’ll go down to an English airport to fly out abroad.

      If you live in Scotland abide by Scottish travel rules and stay here and give our Scottish businesses the trade .

    383. CameronB Brodie says:

      Rm
      As JG suggests, with better arguments that can be supported in law rather that simply legal convention (see contemporary British constitutionalism).

      Full text.

      Revue interdisciplinaire d’études juridiques 2016/2 (Volume 77), pages 235 à 263
      Strengthening Constitutional Identity Where There Is None: The Case of the Netherlands


      All across Europe, in recent years, nations have embarked on processes of inclusion of international human rights in national constitutions. From an empirical, as opposed to normative, point of view, the rationale behind these processes can be understood in two ways, which are essentially two sides of the same coin.

      Constitutionalisation of international human rights either serves to strengthen and to expand the international legal order, with the constitution as a bridge, or, aims at demarcating the constitutional identity of the nation concerned vis-à-vis an ever-expanding international legal order, and at keeping out the unwanted effects of this order, with the constitution as a bulwark.

      Whatever side of the coin one considers, it is clear that both approaches involve a response to much wider global processes – hence their simultaneous occurrence in many countries – but are also fuelled by, and limited by national contexts.

      https://www.cairn.info/revue-interdisciplinaire-d-etudes-juridiques-2016-2-page-235.htm#

    384. robbo says:

      Well there’s a thing. Apparently he’s gonna tout Hydroxychloroquine. He’s bought millions of doses for Brazil and will be presented as the cure, if he gets through it ok.

      Brazilian president Jair Bolsonaro tests positive for coronavirus

    385. Graeme says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      7 July, 2020 at 4:55 pm

      Graeme
      I appreciate we face growing resistance from an increasingly large demographic that is likely to oppose indy, but who are you to judge who gets a say in our democracy?

      —————————————————————–
      Cameron
      I’m a Scot born and raised in Scotland, I’ve worked my whole adult life and paid taxes in Scotland, I have children & Grand Children born and raised in Scotland, I may not be entitled to be sole arbitor on who gets a say in our democracy but I think I’m entitled to an opinion

    386. ahundredthidiot says:

      maggie c @ 5:27

      ‘If you live in Scotland abide by Scottish travel rules and stay here and give our Scottish businesses the trade’

      have you looked out of your window recently!….if I need to fuck off to England to fly to the sun I will….a wee bit of freedom of choice still exists you know…..for now.

      besides – tourism is Scotland for 2020 is a dead duck, so anyone wanting to ‘support Scottish tourism/business’ will either find that hard, or be fleeced for their ‘loyalty’.

    387. PacMan says:

      ahundredthidiot says: 7 July, 2020 at 5:49 pm

      maggie c @ 5:27

      ‘If you live in Scotland abide by Scottish travel rules and stay here and give our Scottish businesses the trade’

      have you looked out of your window recently!….if I need to fuck off to England to fly to the sun I will….a wee bit of freedom of choice still exists you know…..for now.

      besides – tourism is Scotland for 2020 is a dead duck, so anyone wanting to ‘support Scottish tourism/business’ will either find that hard, or be fleeced for their ‘loyalty’.

      So you are off to fly to another country in the sun to be locked down in a hotel. LOL

    388. CameronB Brodie says:

      Graeme
      Sorry if I upset you but I didn’t judge you, I simply offered an ethical perspective. Of course you are entitled to an opinion, so hopefully I am as well?

    389. Graeme says:

      You didn’t upset me Cameron I was simply trying to answer you question as politely as I could and of course you’re entitled to your opinion

    390. Liz g says:

      Maggie C 5.27
      Well I supposed currently they could indeed travel to England and fly out from there.
      Sadly if they’re to thick to work that out for themselves without phoning a radio station…
      They’re probably to thick to work out that if Englands Covid spikes in the 2 week’s they’re away…
      They could return to a Closed Scottish Border and all that it implies…bet the radio host didn’t explore that with them

    391. robbo says:

      PacMan says:
      7 July, 2020 at 6:05 pm
      ahundredthidiot says: 7 July, 2020 at 5:49 pm

      ————

      Aye. I heard Rio and Miami a piping hot this time of year, hope he enjoys.

      bye

    392. Bailey says:

      Graeme at 5.37: I think you’re right. As you probably know, an Edinburgh University study deconstructed the 2014 vote into demographic groups and found that had rUK voters been excised from the vote as EU voters were in the Brexit vote, that it would have been a yes. I think a lot of commentators think that we have to allow everyone a vote but we don’t and no other country allows persons born outwith the territory to vote on constitutional matters. The UN specifically warns against allowing persons originating from a state that another state is trying to secede from to vote.

      Growing up in rural Scotland in the eighties, I am afraid that a lot of English people living here view Scotland as a province of England and the Scots as some sort of serfs. A lot of them are privileged people who came here after making a lot of money in the south and will always vote to keep the status quo and their privileged position. The numbers bear this out as 74% voted to keep us in the union.

      People who defend them and want them to keep the vote are turkeys voting for Christmas as (a) there are so many of them moving here every year that in a few years time we will be like Wales, where independence would be impossible in a referendum now as they would be outvoted in their own country; (b) under the UN a group not originating in the territory has no right to thwart the wishes of an indigenous group; (c) the world norm is that only those born in a territory get to vote on constitutional matters and asking a group from outwith the country would be viewed as madness.

      The “English for Independence” group is a tiny, unrepresentative minority. People will have to be realistic. We either restrict the vote to the world norm or prepare to fail again because the majority of them are imperialists who see our land as a part of England and I don’t think urban people realise that.

    393. shug says:

      It would be funny to see Salmond as the leader of the opposition to the SNP
      Imagine Salmond and Nicola bouncing the material back and forward and the Tories getting the after thought!!

    394. CameronB Brodie says:

      Graeme
      Upset wasn’t the right word, though I think I can empathise with your concerns. I am very afraid for my future, and I’m doing all I can to help Scotland resist authoritarian English Torydum.

      What are Economic, Social and Cultural rights?
      https://www.cesr.org/what-are-economic-social-and-cultural-rights

    395. ahundredthidiot says:

      pacman

      Actually, I tend to go away in winter, but I have this terrible habit of believing in freedom, so if people drive to England to fly out – good on ’em I say.

      Meanwhile, Scotland just keeps on crippling Her economy.

      and Lots of Love to you too (only a child does the other lol)

    396. ahundredthidiot says:

      hey robbo,

      weather’s been murder up here….how is it in Yorkshire?

    397. Rm says:

      If I moved to a foreign country to stay for a few years, worked and paid taxes I would have the right to vote in local elections or national elections to pick a government but I wouldn’t feel it’s my right to a vote in a country’s future, the country could be hundreds or maybe thousands of years old the cultural difference between myself born in a different country and the culture of the indigenous people is totally alien to each other, then after the referendum what if I decided to move back to Scotland my Country where I was born, no definitely wouldn’t have the right to vote in another country’s future.

    398. Dan says:

      Think you’re a tough as nails, street fighting legend, take no prisoners, and harder than Chuck Norris on the Rockwell Scale kinda person?
      Then why not sport the ultimate accessory to show the world what a true weapon you are…

      Handbags by Francois

      https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/status/1280515069844107266

    399. CameronB Brodie says:

      I can only point folk in the direction of sound legal advice, I’m in no position to determine how that advice is interacted with, or whether it results in effective political AGENCY.

      Remember, Scots law hasn’t gotten around to codifying legal protection for the economic, social, and cultural rights of individuals, as Scots law is subourdinate to English legal culture and practice, apparently.

      The Constitutional Protection of
      Socio-Economic Rights in Selected
      African Countries: A Comparative
      Evaluation

      John Cantius Mubangizi*

      Abstract
      This article evaluates the extent to which a few selected African countries have incorporated socio-economic rights in their constitutions, the mechanisms through which such rights are realised, the challenges such realisation entails and the approach taken by the courts and other human rights institutions in those countries towards the realisation and enforcement of those rights.

      The survey examines South Africa, Namibia, Uganda and Ghana. Apart from the logical geographical spread, all these countries enacted their present constitutions around the same time (1990 to 1996) in an attempt to transform themselves into democratic societies. In a sense, these countries can be seen as transitional societies, emerging as they have done, from long periods of apartheid and foreign domination or autocratic dictatorships.

      The latter is true for Uganda and Ghana while the former refers to South Africa and Namibia. The article concludes that South Africa has not only made the most advanced constitutional provision for socio-economic rights, it has also taken the lead in the judicial enforcement of such rights, an experience from which the other countries in the survey can learn.

      *Professor and Deputy Dean, Faculty of Law, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban, South Africa. Professor Mubangizi specializes in Human Rights Law, Constitutional Law and Environmental Law and teaches these courses at both undergraduate and postgraduate levels.

      https://brill.com/downloadpdf/journals/ajls/2/1/article-p1_1.pdf

    400. robbo says:

      ahundredthidiot says:
      7 July, 2020 at 6:55 pm
      hey robbo,

      weather’s been murder up here….how is it in Yorkshire?

      ——–

      Oh ma sides

      Yir patters murder Murdo

    401. CameronB Brodie says:

      The thing is, the Scottish government and judiciary view the law from a perspective that is coherent and compatible with Parliamentary sovereignty, but not international law.

      Judicial Enforcement of Economic,
      Social and Cultural Rights
      Geneva Forum Series no 2

      https://www.icj.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Universal-Judicial-Enforcement-ESCR-Geneva-Forum-Series-2-Publications-Conference-Report-2015-ENG.pdf

    402. @Rm,

      Norway was voted the most democratic country in the world,

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

      to vote in the national/General election in the most democratic country in the world you have to be a citizen of Norway,

      to become a citizen in the most democratic country in the world you have to have lived in Norway for at least three out of the last 10 years,

      No 3 in the most democratic countries in the world ,Sweden,

      `To vote in a Swedish general election, one must be:

      1,a Swedish citizen,

      To become a Swedish citizen,

      you must have been living in Sweden on a long-term basis for a certain period of time. As a rule you must have been resident in Sweden for a continuous period of five years.`

      The most Democratic countries in the world will not let non citizens vote in `their` national elections.

    403. callmedave says:

      Quite a claim! 🙁

      As the infection rate yesterday in England soared to 28 times higher per head of population than in Scotland….

      http://archive.vn/aFXJP#selection-207.0-207.108

    404. Beaker says:

      @Rm says:
      7 July, 2020 at 7:02 pm
      “If I moved to a foreign country to stay for a few years, worked and paid taxes I would have the right to vote in local elections or national elections to pick a government but I wouldn’t feel it’s my right to a vote in a country’s future…”

      I understand your reasoning, but…

      Using your arguments, you would exclude anyone who was not born in Scotland. Are we going to have a racial register, based on country of origin? Maybe Cameron knows the answer, but I believe that you do not legally have to declare your race / ethnicity / sexual orientation / gender to be eligible to vote. Once people have lived continuously in the UK for a period of time, or have indefinite leave to remain, they have the same voting rights as everyone else. Excluding thousands of people purely based on country of birth won’t go down well with the UN or EU.

      No sane politician would even dare to consider such a move (bar the usual nutters). Sturgeon won’t do it. Salmond won’t do it.

      As for cultural differences separated by hundreds of years, get real. I lived outside Scotland for 11 years, both in England and Wales. Bar football (19 fucking 66) things are very similar.

    405. Davie Oga says:

      RM

      If you moved to a foreign country you may have the right to vote in local elections but almost without exception, countries do not allow non citizens the right to vote in national elections.

      Scottish political leadership is on planet moonbeam when it comes to this issue.

    406. dakk says:

      WHO beginning to think Covid can be transmitted by aerosolised means hanging in the air for longer time

      https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/1280531145445310472?s=19

      Also heard a US doctor on cnn this morning saying 10% of the cases of Covid he is seeing have had before, or it has reactivated in the individuals.Some were more ill the second time.

    407. Davie Oga says:

      Vile, racist countries that don’t let non citizens vote in national elections and constitutional referendums

      Canada, France, The USA, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Sweden, Norway, New Zealand etc

      The list is long.

    408. Graeme says:

      It would have been almost impossible for English nationals to vote dispassionately in the 2014 referendum which is born out by the large percentage who voted NO and it’s perfectly understandable.

      I remember the tagline during the campaign “Scotlands Decides” but once again it was England who decided, call that democracy if you like.

      The right thing would have been for English nationals to voluntarily abstain, that would have been the decent thing to do, but when your countries imperialist credentials is at stake f**k decency right

      Yet anyone on here who suggests English nationals should not have been allowed a vote in that referendum is branded Racist. Anti English, Anti democratic and countless other names.

      So when smug arseholes like sensibledave come on here and remind us we voted to remain in the UK in 2014 don’t be frightened to remind him we didn’t

    409. Oscar says:

      Hearing today of redundancies at the Daily Record and Barrhead Travel.

      Life isn’t so bad after all.

      GIRFUY Unionist bastards.

    410. Bailey says:

      Beaker at 8.11: As I said in my post at 6.43 the UN warns against persons originating in the state that the “seceding” state wishes to separate from being allowed to vote. A non-indigenous group voting to thwart the wishes of the indigenous group in a state is a breach of UN protocol. The truth is the opposite of your statement: no other country allows persons not born in the territory to vote on constitutional matters. That wide-open franchise we had in 2014 was unique in the world and non-Scots living here swung it for “no” and will again. They are not persuadable to voting yes as they see us as part of England’s territory.

      We are going to have to face facts: there are over 400,000 of them, 74% of them voted no last time and this will be repeated. A non-indigenous group voting to thwart the indigenous population is a breach of UN protocol and that big English vote should have been questioned. Whoever, allowed the wide-open franchise in the run up to 2014 threw away our chances and there was no need for it in international law.

      They seem to be able to run censuses fairly easily. It should be easy to find out where people were born. Every other country does it. We are setting ourselves an obstacle if we allow non-Scots to vote, which no other country would dream of doing. We threw it away the last time to be “nice”. We can’t afford to be “nicey-nice” again and don’t have to legally.

    411. John Digsby says:

      Fie those talking about voting rights,the UK allows certain Commonwealth and other ‘foreign’ nationals (e.g. Irish citizens) to vote in general elections and referenda. See Qualifying Commonwealth Citizens at https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/voter/register-vote-and-update-your-details#commonwealth

    412. John Digsby says:

      And just to add, this applied for the EU referendum as well. So it is not true that no country allows this – you live in one!

    413. John Digsby says:

      And here’s the link for all elections showing that UK general elections include Commonwealth citizens and the Irish
      https://www.gov.uk/elections-in-the-uk

    414. Sensibledave says:

      Graeme 8.31

      …. It isn’t being “smug” to quote facts that are inconvenient to some here. The Scottish electorate voted to remain in the UK. You may wish to argue that that electorate was the wrong one, but it was the electorate. It does come across as somewhat desperate though.

      It’s nice that you are thinking about me Graeme … and watching your language accordingly. I feel you are making progress to becoming a better human being.

    415. callmedave says:

      Another claim. 10:1

      Nice gwaffs of Scotland in this one.

      http://archive.vn/0sMhX

    416. CameronB Brodie says:

      Beaker
      I certainly can’t object to your point of view. Inclusion in the political process is essential to protecting one’s human rights. The ability to participate effectively, rests on political recognition, which British nationalism denies Scotland (see Brexit).

      Full text.

      Philosophy and Phenomenological Research
      Volume 100, Issue 2, 17 July 2018

      The Institutionality Of Legal Validity

      Abstract
      The most influential theory of law in current analytic legal philosophy is legal positivism, which generally understands law to be a kind of institution. The most influential theory of institutions in current analytic social philosophy is that of John Searle.

      One would hope that the two theories are compatible, and in many ways they certainly are. But one incompatibility that still needs ironing out involves the relation of the social rule that undergirds the validity of any legal system (H.L.A. Hart’s rule of recognition) to Searle’s notion of codification: the idea that institutions need official declarations of their constitutive rules in order to enjoy the full benefits of institutions.

      The incompatibility arises from the fact that, in order to do its institutional work, the basic validity rule must be codified in Searle’s sense – yet, given the particular role it has in legal positivism, it may be impossible to codify in the Searlean sense.

      In this paper I develop the incompatibility in detail, consider and reject consigning the basic validity rule to Searle’s “Background” capacities that support institutional facts, and conclude that the best route to eliminating it while doing a minimum of damage to the two theories is to make a slight emendation to Searle’s theory of institutions.

      https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/phpr.12536

    417. Gfaetheblock says:

      Oscar

      Either you know the voting intentions of the impacted staff (and their dependents) at the Record and Barrhead, or you don’t and are making a wild assumption based on your perception of their employer.

      If it is their former, you are bigot, if the later, an ignorant bigot. I suspect the later.

      Laughing about redundancies is appalling. Fuck you

    418. Confused says:

      anyone know anything about –

      craig murrays troubles (?in court today)

      eric joyce (- a noncing beef)
      ??

    419. Graeme says:

      I never said I couldn’t be a better human being Dave but I’m f**king miles ahead of you

    420. iain mhor says:

      I see Ashcrofts poll and the Edinburgh Uni analysis rears it’s head again.
      For the benefit of those who did not look at the data: The only people who ensured Scotland remained in the UK, were Scots.
      Yes there were very many other nationalities (including English) who voted against independence. However, they would have been dwarfed, if the Scots who voted against, had not.

      See – now go get the data and read it before apportioning blame to anyone but our ain.
      Sure it would have helped if those ‘controversial nationalities’ didn’t have the vote; but as ever, Scotland’s worst enemy is Scotsmen. Or if you reallly, really look at the data – Scotswomen. There you go, have apoplexy over that.

    421. Mike d says:

      Ahundredtheidiot 1.08pm. No bile from me mate. Just absolute common sense. So p**s off troll.

    422. Bailey says:

      To John Digsby: No other country would allow persons born outwith the territory to vote on a constitutional vote in a vote of the magnitude of the Scottish referendum. We threw it away. EU citizens weren’t allowed to vote in the EU vote in 2016 because restrictions are usually placed on the franchise in such votes. The commonwealth and Irish votes are a historical anomaly and are unusual. If you ever read English newspapers online you will see that some English people want the Irish rights taken away. The 2014 franchise was an outlier and if the world norm in such votes had been followed we would be independent by now.

    423. Mike d says:

      Beaker 12.28pm ‘barrhead travel would still be in the exact same situation if we were independent ‘ yes, and an independent Scotland would be better placed than boris to help them.

    424. Bob Mack says:

      @Confused,

      ‘re Craig Murray. Trial set for October. He has listed the charges on his website. Laughable.

    425. Mike d says:

      The quicker the record goes to the wall the better, scum with their ‘vow’.

    426. Sensibledave says:

      Graeme 9.03

      … see Iain Major’s comment at 9.11.

      I think he summed things up better than did.

      It wasn’t the English, the Welsh, the NI, Westminster, that voted … it was Scots.

    427. Eckle Fechan says:

      Late to the party again. Excitable bunch in again, folk talk a lot here, on and off-piste.

      The ball is definitely on Eck’s court. Depends how much dynamite is in the book – enough to blow the bloody doors off? His next move will determine what really happens next. Eyes peeled.

    428. callmedave says:

      Trump formally withdraws from WHO. Says big Auntie BBC

    429. John Digsby says:

      @Bailey

      EU citizens from Ireland, Cyprus and Malta were allowed a vote (the latter via the Commonwealth franchise). And EU citizrns were excluded because a GE franchise was the basis. You may be right that it is an anomaly, but there is an absolutist position in the comments above that it never happens that is patently untrue even without having to look further afield than our own back yard.

      And that is before we get to the practical difficulties of working out who is a ‘true’ Scot (since we would have to generate a fresh register with people proving their place of birth) and the more philosophical debates about ex pat registration (do we use the UK approach of Scots up to 15 years overseas, or do we deny them a say in their country’s destiny?)

      In any case, a better argument is needed than ‘other countries don’t do it because that is a falsifiable proposition

    430. defo says:

      Is Kirsten one of the good guys?

    431. Bailey says:

      @John Digsby, I think we would have to generate a new register. If most countries restrict the franchise I don’t think it would be that difficult. You’re right, whether we accepted the 15 year ex-pat rule would have to be debated. I don’t have a problem with ex-pat Scots of up to the 15 year period voting.

      However, I am afraid that the second referendum ship may have sailed. The First Minister has backed us into a corner with the Section 30 nonsense, which will never be granted. I think she is taking bad advice (it’s almost as if anti-independence people have manoeuvred themselves into advisory positions). Although she was a solicitor she wasn’t a specialist in constitutional law and constitutional law isn’t taught in-depth on the degree course. She is also a stickler for the rules and, while a referendum is denied by Westminster and she is still the First Minister I don’t see anything moving.

      If the powers of the Scottish Parliament are emasculated in the next few months, I can see a wave of anger coming from the public and a new independence party might be able to take advantage of that, but the First Minister is too timid.

    432. Graeme says:

      Yes Dave if more Scots voted YES we would have won it that’s true but if you remove the English Nationalist vote from the equation enough Scots did vote YES for a majority in spite of the lies, false promises, MSM bias and breaking purdah.

    433. John Digsby says:

      @Bailey

      I always think administration is harder than people think! ?
      And sadly, I agree. The FM has absolutely no plan that will lead to a second ref. She has painted herself into a corner – a new leader might be able to shake off the inconsistent commitments and the dithering, but who would that be?

      If it is obvious to us that a Plan B is needed, then why does it appear so inconceivable to those that rule us?

    434. robbo says:

      oops.What was that about borders again?

      https://twitter.com/BBCNewsNI/status/1280448898797056000

    435. Confused says:

      ta Bob. I got a bit on CM over at his own blog.

      – the eric joyce thing looks real weird; the guy was a nutter as an MP, but seemed a reformed character outside. Could be he was a wrongun all along, or it could be the vilest form of fitup. Not a lot of chatter on it.

      Tip for any wingers – don’t open any strange emails and don’t click any links that seem suspicious.

    436. @John Digsby,

      yes there are countries from Brutish Empire days that have a right to vote in UK elections,

      but the main criteria is being a UK citizen

      The following CANNOT vote in a UK Parliament election:

      • EU citizens resident in the UK

      • anyone other than British, Irish and qualifying Commonwealth citizens

      to become a citizen of UK you must have residence of 5 years and pass a test on UK culture and stuff.

    437. shug says:

      Graeme sensibledave is a plant.

      He is a typical unionist full of bitterness and hatred.

      Last year around remembrance time I remember seeing his type in Glasgow standing next to the cenotaph overlooking the garden of remembrance giving Nazi salutes and waiving their union jacks. They don’t do irony.

      During the referendum I saw labour unionists standing handing out conservative unionist leaflets funded by dark money coming through Ulster – did we ever hear more about that??

      Ignore him.

    438. call me dave says:

      @Robbo

      But!…but Boris said… 🙂

    439. Sensibledave says:

      Shug 10.23

      Wow! I remember the last time we exchanged Shuggy. You were calling me a r***** then too when we I mentioned the increased risk to BAME folk because of cv19. Do you remover that Shug? You were being a t**t then … and you are doing it again.

      I note the default position of the loony left these days is to instantly accuse everyone that has a different point of view of being f******s and na**s.

      It really is pathetic. Grow up.

    440. Oscar says:

      Gfaetheblock,,,just for you,,,, enjoy.

      Hearing today of redundancies at the Daily Record and Barrhead Travel.

      Life isn’t so bad after all.

      GIRFUY Unionist bastards.

    441. Graf Midgehunter says:

      @Rm says:

      “If I moved to a foreign country to stay for a few years, worked and paid taxes I would have the right to vote in local elections or national elections to pick a government but I wouldn’t feel it’s my right to a vote in a country’s future…”
      ——————
      That’s not quite right regarding voting rights.

      Here in Germany, I can vote in local or European elections but not in national or federal states (Länder) elections.

      Non Germans (citizenship)can’t vote for a government.

      It was the same situation in Denmark.

    442. CameronB Brodie says:

      Scot Finlayson
      “to become a citizen of UK you must have residence of 5 years and pass a test on UK culture and stuff.”

      That indicates I was wrong to suggest we don’t have time to implement franchise requirements, thanks for the correction. There would certainly appear to be legal precedent in common law, supported by HMG no less. 😉

    443. Lothianlad says:

      Bailey 10.01

      it’s almost as if anti-independence people have manoeuvred themselves into advisory positions).

      Yep , been saying for ages, sturgeon and several high ranking officials in the SNP/ SG are being played/ controlled by the British secret service.

      We are getting close to end game where they will be playing their last cards. Cause maximum damage to the SNP / SG and weaken the cause of Independence.

      Sturgeon is the unions safest bet as better leader would be campaigning hard for indy.

      A small but sinister hard core group of nature deniers, careerists, devolutionists and down right unionists populate her inner circle. You could even list them in ‘ alphabetical’ order!

      They didn’t get their be chance, and neither did she. Helped to the top by the british secret service who want pay back when the time is right.

      Look how the irish Republican cause was infiltrated and influenced by them.

      The fact independence is rising high in the polls is more down to the ineptitude of the opposition, not the tactical brilliance of the cheif admninistrator of british rule in Scotland.

      Sturgeon loyalists take note, we would have been independent years ago with this level of support and mandates by NOT following her gold standard Westminster sanctioned referendum legislation.

    444. Oscar says:

      If an immigrant settles in the UK, who decides which nationality they become?

      For example, what if this immigrant turned out to be one of the best footballers in the world, does he represent Scotland Wales N Ireland or England???

      Who has the final legitimate right to say whick country he will end up playing for???

    445. John Digsby says:

      @Scot Finlayson

      Yes,that’s what I said. And others were saying that no foreigner would ever be allowed to vote in a national election.

      Which as you have idenified, is not true. There may be very good grounds to exclude such people from the constitutional question, but the idea that other countries don’t is inaccurate.

      I also think the practicalities of exclusion are difficult in the absence of a formal, modern legal definition of ‘Scot’ that doesn’t rely on residency. So as Bailey and I (appear?) ro have agreed, there would need to be a register set up. You’d then have to set up criteria for that register and it couldn’t just be ‘no English’ – we’d lose the EU support too. And the ex-Pat argument is a fiddly one, particularly looking at international comparisons which can be a bit more liberal than the UK.

      Overall looks like a big can of worms that would be used to portray the Scottish government as uber-Nationslists with insinuated xenophobia. And all for limited benefit in any case

      Suggest the focus should be elsewhere – tinkering with the franchise so it’s different from the first ref will just look like we are trying to stack the deck.

    446. schrodingers cat says:

      @lothianlad

      utter bollox

    447. terence callachan says:

      Very exciting indeed if Alex Salmond started a party with one policy …List Votes

      Its not an ” either or ” with AS and NS

      We are lucky… WE CAN HAVE BOTH

    448. terence callachan says:

      Oscar…immigrants will be allowed to choose from SEIW just like anyone else can if they have a parent or grandparent from one of those

    449. CameronB Brodie says:

      John Digsby
      “Suggest the focus should be elsewhere – tinkering with the franchise so it’s different from the first ref will just look like we are trying to stack the deck.”

      I hear you but I’d suggest we are being asked to play by unconventional rules that do not similarly apply to Westminster elections, and against a stacked deck rigged by Westminster. The common law applies to Scotland as it does to England, even though Westminster does its’ best to ignore and subvert this fact of law.

    450. terence callachan says:

      British nationality ? What is it ?

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law

    451. terence callachan says:

      Nationality ? How is it decided ?

      Its decided differently in different countries across the world

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis

    452. Lothianlad says:

      Sc @ 11.53

      Away ya unionist hunt!! Go back to SiU

    453. Lothianlad says:

      Shrodingers cat,

      Might as well go back to SiU, you wont get any MBEs for posting on this site

    454. terence callachan says:

      What about USA , Canada , how do they decide nationality and voting rights

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli

    455. terence callachan says:

      lothianlad…i think you are being silly suggesting nicola sturgeon is a unionist

      You been on the sauce ?

    456. Oscar says:

      Terence

      Your reply doesn’t answer my question.

      Who decides which nationality an immigrant is going to be.

      Will they be Scottish English Welsh it N Irish?

      Who decided Mo Farah should be English for example.

    457. Lothianlad says:

      Terence callaghan,

      Sturgeon sure as hell ain’t for independence that’s for sure.
      You been on the sauce??

    458. Lothianlad says:

      Terence callaghan,

      Its not an ” either or ” with AS and NS

      We are lucky… WE CAN HAVE BOTH

      Do you have any idea how ridiculous you are??

      The same sturgeon that stabbed Alex in the back .

      Have a break, have a kit kat

    459. CameronB Brodie says:

      Time for some international law, seeing as how Scots law is rather stunted in its’ competence and unable to help Scotland much right now?

      Full text.

      American Journal of International Law, July, 2004
      Justiciability of Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights: Should There be an International Complaints Mechanism to Adjudicate the Rights to Food, Water, Housing, and Health?

      https://www.escr-net.org/resources/justiciability-economic-social-and-cultural-rights-should-there-be-international

    460. Sandy says:

      Apart from CBB & a few others, there appears to be a lot of self=appointed experts on this blog.

    461. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Once Scotland is a self-governing country, What hoops Johnny Foreigner, English Bob and Angus McExile have to jump through to get voting rights at Scottish Elections, will be decided.

      Until then, there is no point in speculating and even less point in complaining about the current set up.

    462. Col.Blimp IV says:

      If any of you are becoming bored with Covid 19 and the lockdown is getting you down – Here’s something to cheer you up –

      https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1306344/Bubonic-Plague-china-news-outbreak-inner-mongolia-fever-who

    463. Col.Blimp IV says:

      I hope we have a big enough pool of “experts” here to advise the government on how to tackle this new crisis.

      Sandy – You can be in charge of recruitment.

    464. Capella says:

      Quiet night last night!
      Ruth Wishart’s take on the WoS Alex Salmond poll.
      The Yes movement must not splinter at this critical juncture

      http://archive.fo/FyLHf

    465. Oscar says:

      Capella

      Why did you dig out that particular article and post it up in Wings?

      Do you recommend sticking to the old tried and failed procedure of “vote SNP one and two”?

      You are a staunch critic of any positive changes put forward by the Rev.

      What are you up to?

      The Yes Movement is sick to the back teeth of this gradualist tactic and are crying out for a different route, a different Plan.

      And once again you try your hardest to pour cold water on the idea of having a List Party dedicated to fighting on the single issue of Scottish Independence.

      What the fuck are you up to?

      You sound as if you would be more comfortable with Willie Rennie as your Political idol, he also favours bumping along the bottom as a Devolved Administration.

      You definitely seem like a fish out of water on a site like Wings Over Scotland.

    466. ahundredthidiot says:

      callmedave says

      ‘Trump formally withdraws from WHO. Says big Auntie BBC’

      If that’s true…..I wonder if it makes Bill Gates their biggest donor now….

      funny old world innit…….especially since we haven’t had a vax for coronavirus’ for 17 years – now one is two weeks away.

      Look – a squirrel!

    467. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Capella

      Ruth Wishart is of course right, fighting each other can only damage our chances of success.

      But the facts are :

      No Westminster government will meekly agree to an Referendum they fear the might loose.

      The SNP’s has spent the last few years trying to undermine and usurp the Brexit Referendum .

      The SNP have done nothing beyond make hollow promises on the independence front for five years.

      Many people have lost faith in sincerity of the SNP hierarchy’s claims regarding independence.

      List votes cast for the SNP do not translate into seats when they are winning the bulk of the FPTP seats.

      This baby-steps gradualist approach has been tolerated for twenty five years – FOR A REASON – to get us into a position where we can win our Freedom – Nothing to fucking do with Gaelic Road Signs, Free Prescriptions or generally administering the colony more sensitively than The Redcoats, and definitely not to embed in law the rights of oddballs to swing their dicks around in ladies changing rooms.

      The journey Alex Salmond set us out on in the mid 90’s is almost over – We have arrived at the gate – and if we do not open it now, our next chance may never come.

      And if it is the SNP who bar our way, those deemed responsible will never be forgiven.

    468. ahundredthidiot says:

      and if the squirrel isn’t for you, maybe the patent on microsofts crypto currency is…….or how it’s effectively used.

      (The patent number will freak a few people out, for sure)

      Spoiler alert – the currency transactions are by biological chip.

      right this way sir…….vaccines first, then we need to track and trace everybody who refuses the ‘mandatory’ vaccine – you know, to keep everyone safe – in order to track and trace everyone effectively, well jeez, we need to chip everyone and you wouldn’t object unless you have something to hide.

      But you know, it’s really good, you can pay for your 6 quid liquid drug you call coffee. just with the swipe of your wrist – or hand or thumb (the choice is completely yours about where it goes). Microsoft is here to make our lives easier.

    469. Robert Louis says:

      In the news today, I see the SNP are back begging london for some diddly ‘powers’, instead of independence. I am told this might be the text of Kate Forbes letter to London;

      ‘Dear Mr. Sunak,

      My name is Katie, and I am the pretendy ‘chancellor’ in Scotland. Whilst I know your government is currently in the process of stripping Scotland of almost all powers and forcibly removing us all from the EU against our wishes, I have a nice little request to make. Please, please, please, can we have a little bit of extra ‘power’ to make changes in Scotland. Pretty please.

      If that’s not possible, that’s okay, and I hope I didn’t upset anybody. We promise not to campaign for independence or anything silly like that, so don’t worry.

      Thank you so very much for reading my wee letter to you. All the best to you and Mr. Johnson.

      Yours,

      Katie.’

      So, there we have it. Independence support is now the majority in Scotland, and the SNP are down on bended knee to their London masters, begging for some diddly wee pretendy powers. I can just imagine the Tory lying murderers in Downing street laughing their socks off.

      What an utterly pathetic bunch the SNP have become. They have no fight. No political savvy. No idea how to push their agenda. Too busy ‘playing nicely’, so as not to upset the meeja.

      We need a NEW Scottish independence party, as a matter of some urgency, either that or with growing support, the people must take back our sovereignty ourselves.

      The SNP are now just a joke. The most MP’s, MSP’ and councillors in Scotland, yet still they are all too feart to say or do anything remotely connected with independence.

      This really cannot go on.

    470. Capella says:

      @ Col Blimp IV – I’m all for a second independence list party and for Alex Salmond to be a prominent participant.
      What I’m against is circular firing squads.

      Kevin McKenna’s take on the WoS article.
      Indy party led by Salmond might be just what the Yes movement needs

      http://archive.fo/Nk7Gx

    471. Robert Louis says:

      Lothianlad at 1226am,

      Exactly. Nicola’s coat is on a shoogly peg.

    472. Juteman says:

      Robert Louis @7.46
      It’s a well used tactic to ask for something knowing the answer will be NO!
      I’m not saying that’s the case here, but you never know. It’s good to demonstrate to potential Yes voters how much we need the powers to do things ourself. Us ‘veterans’ get angry at the perceived weakness, but maybe we are not the target audience?

    473. Sinky says:

      Gary Roberton on GMS aggressively attacks Ian Blackford for wanting more powers for Scottish Parliament.

      Meanwhile Pamela Nash writing p*sh in Scotsman and falsehoods over Scotland’s record on Covid.

    474. Col.Blimp IV says:

      How to show a united front at the Holyrood Election – and save the SNP’s hand full of Regional List Seats.

      All Parties use a Saltire logo with a big “YES” in the middle, “INDEPENDENCE” across the top and their “PARTY NAME” along the bottom.

      Their are 8 regions

      If their are 4 parties – They contest 2 each – Parties with sitting list MSP’s get first dibs.

      If their are 5 Parties – 1 region is contested by a single Party, the other seven by 2 Parties – All Parties could contest up to 3 Regions.

      If there are 6 Parties – 2 regions would have a 3 way contest – 6 would have a 2 way contest – All parties could contest up to 3 regions

      All parties may not wish to take up their full compliment.

      Independence vote maximised.

      Many Unionist MSP’s Bite the dust.

      Plebiscite Election – negating the need for a Referendum.

      Simple message – SNP & INDEPENDENCE

      Can the SNP Bosses come up with an honourable reason for sticking with SNP 1&2 ?

    475. susan says:

      Col BlimpIV @7:42. I agree with you.

    476. Rm says:

      When we have another referendum on independence, we can’t have a stacked deck before we start, we have to be like Norway and Sweden, only people born in that country or people who’ve become nationalised citizens, this is crucial or we’re going nowhere, people have to see it’s a stacked deck before we even start.

    477. Famous15 says:

      Oh look an idiot squirrel!

      Gates is not an MSP.

      Todays thought: there is an uncharacteristic anger building in Europe against the destructive stupidity of the British Government. They see US as selfish destroyers.

      They will see Scottish Independence as a welcome antidote to the absurd nonsense they have had to suffer from Brexiteers.

      Independence is normal and desirable .

    478. Dan says:

      @Col.Blimp IV at 5.06am

      Archived that link for you. I’m off for a lie down now after handling an Express link without proper PPE. What was I thinking…
      At least with exposure to Bubonic plague one’s life ends relatively quickly, reading the Express however puts one into the zombie state of bad acid trip where the rest of one’s life is spent hating everyone and everything*.

      *Apparently huge doses of sedatives rendering one almost comatose, wearing glasses with Union Flag lenses, and ear buds playing an endless loop of Rule Britannia and the Eastenders theme tune help alleviate Express Reader Syndrome… but most sensible folk would try to catch Bubonic plague as the preferred treatment for the ERS condition.

      https://web.archive.org/save/https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1306344/Bubonic-Plague-china-news-outbreak-inner-mongolia-fever-who

    479. schrodingers cat says:

      Robert Louis says:
      8 July, 2020 at 7:50 am
      Lothianlad at 1226am,

      Exactly. Nicola’s coat is on a shoogly peg.

      ————-

      bollox, nicola has a +60 rating, snp at 55% yes at 54%.

    480. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Dan

      The last time I was castigated for handling an Ex-Press the Scottish Daily News had just been set up in its place because the bastards had re-located to England.

      I have generally steered well clear of it ever since – The things that I don’t know about Madeline McCann and Diana Spencer could fill a library.

    481. mike cassidy says:

      Say it ain’t so, covidsceptics.

      Sweden

      Its decision to carry on in the face of the pandemic has yielded a surge of deaths without sparing its economy from damage

      http://archive.vn/mjvR0

    482. Oscar says:

      Regarding Ian Blackford’s tv interviews this morning.

      No mention of Independence from him, it had to be put to him.

      Is this a secret tactic from the SNP that we don’t know about?

      Don’t mention the “I” word and hopefully someone will mention it in my behalf.

      He also says the Devolved Nations of the UK need more tax raising powers to hell their individual economies.

      That statement shows Blackford’s vision for Scotland is within the UK.

      Blackford definitely isn’t your ideal freedom fighter.

      He looks like a fat lazy Laird of the Manor.

      He also comes across as being in a semi comatose state, as if he is on a strong course of Valium.

      So is he the man to lead the SNP at Westminster?

      In my opinion, the guy shouldn’t even be an SNP representative, never mind leader of the SNP at Westminster.

      Blackford has probably fought harder for stopping an English Brexit than he has for Scottish Independence.

    483. robbo says:

      Col.Blimp IV says:
      8 July, 2020 at 5:23 am

      Bubonic plague has never gone away and is still killing every year unless you don’t have access to antibiotics.
      Simple really,cos its a bacterium not a virus.

      Move along now,nothing to see here anti vaxers.
      Must do better.

    484. MaggieC says:

      Capella @ 7.48am

      Thanks for posting the link to Kevin McKenna’s excellent article in the National .

      Especially this line in it “ I’m not counting the Greens as they have merely become a vanity project for their leader “ .

    485. Willie says:

      Talking about our good friends in Westminster soon to enfeebled the Scottish Parliament with the influence and power of a Community Council, I note today that Matt Hancock is saying that he is going to reintroduce parking charges for NHS workers.

      Ah the NHS COVID heroes. Having done their bit time for them to now be dumped upon by a heartless greedy shower of Tory bastards looking to soak them for parking fees.

      Crap for NHS heroes. They’re the shit that put their lives on the line. Now it’s back to business. Time for them to be crapped on. Tories have short memories and do not change their spots.

    486. @John Digsby,

      we aint goin anywhere fast,

      we might as well have a discussion about the voting franchise for the next referendum,

      as i say no other country i know of allows non citizens to vote in `national` elections,

      this isn`t antianglo or xenophobia,

      (yes the UK has some 100 year old law that allows members of the old empire to vote)

      all i am asking for is a 3/5 year primary home residency and it doesn`t matter whether you are English,Swedish or even American,

      Athens ,the mother of all democracies, said you had to be a citizen of Athens to vote.

    487. Ottomanboi says:

      Is being wary of the English, anti-English?
      Scottish history appears one long struggle to keep the English, in what ever guise they may assume, out. Is that anti-English?
      Is dissolving the 1707 Union and seeking the restoration of our national independence, anti-English?
      Is even having a Scottish consciousness anti-English?
      Anti-English like fascist is become a default posture and just as meaningless.
      We have a historic adversary, that adversary needs no tender care from us.

    488. Effijy says:

      Not only are the inhuman Westminster Tories reinstating
      Hospital Parking Charges their Tory councils have been
      Enforcing tickets for Doctors attending emergency calls.

      One council offered to half the fine on appeal because it
      Was a matter of life or death?

      We need a border with mine fields to keep this scum out of Scotland.

    489. Rm says:

      The 21st century and Scotland have to ask permission from Westminster for borrowing powers, how can Scotland ever build their future potential when we have to beg, this must be the time to go for it, time for our leaders to get going they won’t get a better time, Scotland can’t be held down for much longer we have to build for a future, Westminster can concentrate on englands future.

    490. Julia Gibb says:

      @Oscar

      Regarding your attack on Capella.

      You think you speak for wings! Such arrogance. You speak for the YES movement. Even mor arrogance.
      An amateur howling at the moon. Like a handful of others on here who scream and abuse the SNP.
      The members of the SNP past AND present have done more to move Independence forward than any other organisation. The Party is NOT HQ but you grievance chip does not allow that logic to process.

      This site is based on the well researched and linked articles. It is not the property of ANY faction, no matter their number of posts. Any idiot can destroy things. It takes a great deal more effort to build.

      The posts ( not the blog) on this forum by a small clique are damaging the Independence movement. As an example the positive article of a list party ejecting Unionist politicians was quickly turned into an attack on the SNP by you and others.

      Those who remain in the Party are classed as fools and every post attacked. Sit back and look at who is doing the most damage to the Independence movement – the clique on here who now consider it THEIR site.

      You speak for no one.

    491. shug says:

      sensibledave

      thanks for confirming the point

      keep waiving that jack



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