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The awful truth

Posted on May 31, 2015 by

This is Robert Hutton – UK political correspondent for Bloomberg News and author of the book “Would They Lie To You?” – and former Labour spin doctor Damien McBride on Radio 4 this morning, discussing the fate of Alistair Carmichael.

(The Week In Westminster, BBC Radio 4, 30 May 2015)
.

That’s going to be an awkward lunch.

(It’s well worth listening to the programme’s whole segment on the broader subject of lying and not-quite lying in politics, which starts around 16m 30s on the link above.)

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    1. 31 05 15 16:22

      The awful truth | Speymouth

    177 to “The awful truth”

    1. Swami Backverandah says:

      If political lying is an art, Carmichael et al are colouring by numbers.

    2. Marie clark says:

      Will make conversation difficult won’t it.

      The man Carmichael has absolutely no decency, none whatsoever, or he would already be gone. If even the pundits are now beginning to see the writing on the wall, what then is the matter with Aliestair?

    3. ahundredthidiot says:

      awe gosh……ha ha ha

      Nervous laugh. And so it should be.

      Game’s up.

    4. Lib Dem’s have to know this will play as badly as ‘tuition fees’ and that Carmichael will be a walking liability for next five years. Surely they could have seen potential for the rebuilding of trust with the electorate they would have achieved by sacking him.

      That would have played well with electorate across the UK. Instead Sir Malcolm Bruce has car crash interview in support of Carmichael and Willie Rennie calls for second chance.

      I’m now wondering if Carmichel has them all by the short and curlies, by threatening to reveal who knew what, and when, about the memo.

      It’s either that or the Lib Dems have the strategic ability of a goldfish.

    5. Lollysmum says:

      And there we have it! None of them have the guts to say what is the truth & even this admission had to be dragged out ‘Oh dear, I’m invited to lunch next week’ but finally agreeing that Carmichael should go.

      Has every other silent commentator had invitations to lunch as well?

      Is the truth being suppressed in favour of slap up meals on expenses? If so, do us all a favour & pay for your own lunches & do your job.

    6. Pam McMahon says:

      The “art” of political lying? Hope the Arts Council have contributed to the crowd funder, because he has just brought the arts into public disrepute, with his pathetic bit of graffiti. Banksie, he’s not.

    7. McBoxheid says:

      The last sentence was interesting. BBC radio 4 reporter saying (Hatton and McBride) on the art of political lying as if it is perfectly normal to do this.
      Move along there, nothing to see here.

    8. handclapping says:

      They really dont get it. I read the paulbernal piece on your Twitter feed and absolutely nobody picked up on his line about telling the truth there either.

      How would Churchill have done with “I have nothing to offer you but … I can promise that after the war we will be better off but I’m going to try to not raise your taxes now”

      We need politicians who tell the truth.

    9. Joemcg says:

      Is the guy actually saying because the liar told a few dirty jokes at a private press function that it gives a reason he should stay?? FFS.

    10. handclapping says:

      Sorry. For those of you who cant remember or never knew what WSC said 75 years ago this month it was “… blood, toil, tears and sweat.

    11. heedtracker says:

      Awe. He’s just a lovable rogue then. Then you look at how Britnat tory campaign used his leaking and how he waited for just the right historical campaign time too.

      Schmooze UKOK hacks and they love you forever. Vive La France:D

    12. Black Joan says:

      Yes, the ability to entertain the press with tales too filthy to print is advanced as an argument in his favour.

      And him an Elder of the Church of Scotland.

    13. No no no...Yes says:

      Time is indeed running out for the LibDems. The fact there is a court action being brought by constituents is clearly international news and the negative impact on them will be catastrophic the longer they fail to take positive action.

      Carmichael seems intent in digging in, but we live in different times and he is completely out of touch with the reality of the situation. Tavish or Liam really to put the pressure on him to go or they will disappear in 2016

    14. When typing my comment ( above @2.44pm ) my spellcheck auto suggestion for ‘curlies’, as in ‘Carmichel has them all by the short and curlies’, was ‘cur lies’. Yep, that’s Carmichael

    15. Bob Mack says:

      The writing is indeed on the wall for AC. The sooner he learns to read what it says the better.

    16. Alastair says:

      I suggested a week ago that an invitation to appear in front of the Scottish Affairs Select Committee could be a defining moment as it is covered by Parliament TV.
      So come on the 56 get that invite arranged under whatever guise.

    17. Catherine says:

      This shows you how incestuous the whole thing is, journos and political people lunching together and them not wanting to say something for fear of upsetting their “friends”. Their job should be to upset the political class.

    18. So a speech, by an upstanding elder of the kirk, full of stories too dirty to be repeated, who lies, undermines our FM and democracy, and pulls the wool over his constituents eyes is quite acceptable as a politician. Hmmm. They may all, bar 56, be like that, but that’s no reason to put up with them or keep them at our expense.

      Sounds, too, as if the former SoSfS may be doing a bit of wining and dining, entertaining (possibly with more dubious stories), to win support for his court case and for him staying on as MP. Possible bribery as well as lies.

    19. naebd says:

      Carmichael’s a barefaced Sayer of the Thing He Said. He’s gotta go.

    20. broonpot says:

      Massive Fail – “Political Lying” is not an art. It is a suicidal sport undertaken by idiots.

      Broadcasters and publishers should know better but unfortunately continue to demonstrate their ignorance.

    21. Velofello says:

      Carmichael has been very foolish. Sloppy in not thinking through the likely outcomes of releasing the memo; naive in not wondering why this memo gift from a civil servant should land on his lap.

      My opinion of Westminster is so low that a black ops project of concocting a memo and then identifying Carmichael as a suitable patsy seems feasible to me.

      Lucky for Nicola Sturgeon that the French weren’t prepared to smear Scotland’s First Minister. Carmichael was prepared to smear her, and for that disgraceful act of disloyalty to her and the Scottish nation he must leave politics.

    22. If a member of the public lied whilst giving a statement to the police there would be hell to pay. This incident seems to be getting treated with joviality and the seriousness of what is involved getting lost as each day passes.
      This man,Carmichael,lied and brought the name of the First Minister of Scotland into disrepute yet we have to collect money from public donations to get this man removed from office. I wonder if Miss Mone has room for a disgraced MP on her way down south.

    23. Grouse Beater says:

      1. An exaggeration is a lie.
      2. A half-truth is as much a lie because its intention is to deflect knowledge of the repercussions of full-truth.
      3. Avoiding a full answer is tantamount to a lie because it misdirects the listener to a false sense of security.

    24. steveasaneilean says:

      Any mileage in a FOI request for the text of that Press Gallery speech from two years ago?

    25. crazycat says:

      Listening to that Malcolm Bruce interview again (ugh!), it really is quite extraordinary (or should be) that he thinks it possible to make a mistake about whether you’ve authorized the leaking of a document, which you know will have repercussions for at least one and possibly two of your major political rivals “in the heat of the election campaign”.

      Then he said “Alistair has faced the consequences – he’s apologized”. Apologizing must be absolutely traumatic if it counts as a “consequence”.

    26. wingman 2020 says:

      It’s pretty evident that Carmichael is the patsy and fall guy that the establishment and the Lie Dems cannot shake off for fear of other casualties.

      If he was the only guilty party, everyone would have dropped him like a hot potatoe.

    27. Gillian_Ruglonian says:

      What’s wrong with the lib dems? Why they haven’t put the pressure on Carmichael (who seemingly isn’t going to go voluntarily) I don’t know, they can surely see the collateral damage awaiting them if he isn’t dealt with. Bizarre!

    28. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      The Party’s over.

    29. One_Scot says:

      I think he will only go if he is told to, and in that case it will be because there is a larger part of the iceberg hidden below the water line.

    30. Valerie says:

      Well I hope Rob Hutton is reading this thread.

      What kind of political correspondent are you exactly, that you find it difficult saying Carmichael lied, took a while for you to get there, eh?

      Not one that holds the political class to account for their behaviour, obviously. Just be careful you aren’t called as a witness as a Carmichael character witness.

      I am far from a prude about language, and often have to check my colourful language in company, but I’m not an elected public servant, making law, and spending taxpayers hard earned. I do take fucking exception to an MP holding a press conference with public money, and talking so dirty that it’s unfit for public consumption????? So the press colluded in covering this???

      Since when was lying elevated to an art form, oh right, it’s the BBC, stupid question.

      FFS, there are days I fear for my blood pressure.

    31. pete the camera says:

      The best thing about a court case is all the big names that can be called who will have to take an oath, should be a squirming moment to watch bet, the public benches will be full that day, BTW not a day for taking the knitting to many dropped stitchers

    32. Jim Thomson says:

      A further wee reminder of the fundraiser – now just £145 short of 50k 🙂

      http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael#/story

    33. Stoker says:

      Political lying?

      Is that any different from other types of lying!

      Seems to me there is a concerted effort to get us all to accept lying, within the realms of the establishment, as a perfectly acceptable and necessary part of life.

      If that is the case, how wrong can they be.

      It could be argued that there are 2 types of lying:

      1: The little white lies people tell to prevent someone discovering a surprise party being organised for someone etc.
      (Some people find this quite acceptable, and why not)

      2: Anything else, it’s just not right, ESPECIALLY in political, legal and relationship circles. There is no justification for it.

      It may be part of Westminster life but i think they’ll find we have better standards and expectations for a free Scotland.

      Also, the very fact that people need to seek justice via taking their own legal action says all you need to know about the rancid corrupt system Scotland is chained to.

      Lets bring out the oxy-acetylene burning gear, ASAP.

    34. manandboy says:

      There is an explanation for what is going on here with Carmichael – we just don’t know it yet. All we can do is speculate. A bit like doing a Sherlock – with a mask on.

    35. Grouse Beater says:

      What’s wrong with the LibDems?

      Leaderless?
      No stomach for another fight.
      Searching Internet for retirement home in Cornwall.

    36. Grouse Beater says:

      In the world of political skulduggery this is the scenario:

      A crooked and shamed politician holds on because … he told others involved to back him or go down with him.

      Has any colleague backed Carmichael?

    37. frogesque says:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/academy/journalism/skills/investigative-journalism

      Journalism / Skills
      Investigative journalism

      Investigative journalism often calls for technical skill, resourcefulness and bravery. Reporters working on original stories must ensure the sources are genuine and the truth is being told. They need to understand every layer of the story and back up the findings of their investigation. In this section some of the BBC’s most experienced investigative reporters explain how they find and tell their stories.

      What a great shame our illustrious 4th Estate don’t adhere to those founding concepts promoted (but ignored) by the BBC!

    38. Black Joan says:

      Through tatter’d clothes small vices do appear;
      Robes and furr’d gowns hide all. Plate sin with gold,
      And the strong lance of justice hurtless breaks:
      Arm it in rags, a pigmy’s straw does pierce it.
      (King Lear Act IV scene 6)

      True in Shakespeare’s time. True now. But not for much longer if the People of Orkney and Shetland (and the rest of us) have our way.

    39. Dr Jim says:

      Alistair Carmichael has sex with monkeys I heard it from a man who delivers fish to my neighbour who says he overheard Carmichael admit it

      Does anybody think that might have been a lie
      Coz it’s not it’s the absolute truth and I’ll maintain that position right up until I admit it was a mistake

      Then I’ll make folk take me to court spending all their money they can ill afford in order to…Well I might admit it now
      But I do tell good jokes so that should excuse me
      And i was a good guy before I said it…Honest

    40. Rob James says:

      Wonder if Carbuncle had lunch with Simon whatsisname from the Telegraph a few weeks ago?

    41. ahundredthidiot says:

      I wont be holding my breath for the MSM to do their job in pursuing this mans career to its deserved conclusion, but it is fair to say that AC cannot possibly survive this.

      Mundell must be nervous.

      I imagine The Club will be looking for his next (and very probably extremely well paid) job, to keep him shut.

    42. Petra says:

      The problem that we face in this country, in my opinion, is that MANY politicians such as Blair, Carmichael, Murphy and Boris Johnstone, to name but a FEW, suffer from narcissistic personality disorder.

      This condition would have to be diagnosed by a mental health diagnostician of course, however research shows that the political arena acts like an absolute magnet for narcissists due to the advantages and privileges it offers, such as status, power and money. These people, politicians, often manage to rise to the top of their chosen field in line with others such as lawyers, Ceo’s and bankers.

      Traits of narcissistic behaviour include pathological LYING, a lack of empathy, a sense of entitlement (Carmichael even used this word in a recent interview), a grandiose sense of self-importance and a tendency towards arrogant, haughty behaviour.

      They, the narcissists, believe that they are special and that the Law of the land doesn’t apply to them. Lying is part and parcel of the job (and their personality) and as there are so many of them, liars, in Westminster (and HoLs) they close ranks in an attempt to protect each other.

      The impact that this has on us, narcissists running the Country, is absolutely manifold of course as they are the very people who are making decisions that affect every aspect of our lives. Their lack of empathy, as an example, explains why they have no qualms about introducing policies that rob the poor and vulnerable in an attempt to line their own pockets / double the bank account of the mega rich. They are totally disconnected from those who are suffering, use propaganda to scapegoat and spin tales (have many connections in the Media to aid this) in an attempt to influence and manipulate others (the electorate) into accepting their policies.

      A lack of understanding about this condition leads to individuals being puzzled and confused by this type of behaviour for example the blatant lying by so many, why Labour MPs claim so much in expenses (more so than the Tories now) or accept a seat in the House of Lords. A study of narcissism also highlights a link between narcissism and paedophilia.

      It’s clear that the Scots (and others in rUK) are absolutely scunnered with the constant lying, scandals, cover-ups and so on.

      The Tony Blair / Iraq War saga probably epitomises one of the best examples of the horrendous results of a narcissist calling the shots in recent times; the lying, megalomaniac behaviour, lack of empathy, not accepting responsibilty for his actions, projecting blame onto others and so on. It’s this type of incident, the behaviour and diabolical actions of one man supported by others of his ilk, that has led to many of us desperate to acquire our Independence. And in a way it highlights that at an unconscious level we are aware that narcissists are running the Country.

      The constant lying, excessive greed and cruel, poor decision making will never end as it’s part and parcel of the Westminster way; it permeates the whole system like the veins that run through a human body. One can’t survive without the other.

      The only way that we can rid ourselves of narcissistic politicians is to strive to understand what makes them ‘tick’, deprive them of all that they are attracted to and cut them off from their narcissitic supply; an impossible task now, in relation to Westminster, I would think.

      The deterrent therefore is to have in place a political system (an Independent Scotland) that provides as little as it takes for our politicians to carry out their work effectively, is caring and compassionate and totally transparent and accountable to the people that they have been employed to serve; rather than having to put up with the narcissist / s constantly seeking to serve him / her self.

      http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolution-the-self/201112/narcissism-why-its-so-rampant-in-politics

      http://www.drjimtaylor.com/3.0/politics-six-reasons-why-politicians-believe-they-can-lie-and-not-get-caught/

      PS If anyone is interested in the subject at all I highly recommend Sam Vaknins Malignant Self Love: Narcissism Revisited.

    43. Giving Goose says:

      There used to be a standing joke regarding Highland Council that the Tory party was hiding behind the mask of “Independents”.

      There were Labour, SNP and LibDem councillors, but no Conservatives.

      At least, no councillor would admit to being a Tory because the Tory brand is so toxic.

      Which gets me thinking.

      Is Carmichael a secret Conservative?
      It wouldn’t surprise me if he had infiltrated the LibDems, when his actual masters were the Conservative Party.

      He would not be able to be elected in the Northern Isle as a Tory, but hide behind another badge, say the right things, press the right flesh and job done.

      Someone is protecting him and it is someone very powerful.

      Tavish, Bruce etc don’t have the brains, nor the clout, so it has to be someone able to pull the strings. Someone that rewards loyalty. Someone powerful.

    44. Cherry says:

      IMO AC has pulled all those close to him into this lie. Tavish Scott admits he was told and had to think on it for five days. So how many others did he tell…they keep his secret, and he won’t drop them in it. Once you’ve heard a confession of guilt are you not then a party to the whole affair if you keep your mouth shut. That’s what Carmichael is hoping for, he just didn’t expect the people of his electorate to take him to court for his lies. I am so proud of my countrymen at the moment. Put into the Orkney crowdfund well I would just buy more popcorn…politics is just so amusing right now…who knew 😉

    45. Clootie says:

      …amazing how much sympathy those living and working in the London bubble have for the liar, and so little for the victims of the lie.

      It sums up the London centric club…. a liar but a good chap. It was a good jape and a pity he was found out.

    46. Thepnr says:

      Quick update, the People v Carmichael fundraiser just hit the £50,000 mark. Well done to the organisers and all those that contributed.

      Hopefully very soon, the target of £60,000 will be reached.

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael/x/6515990#/story

    47. heedtracker says:

      “I Alistair Carmichael swear by ? that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth.”

      “But before I do, knock knock jokes anyone? take my mother in law, someone please take my mother in law…”

      Oh Alistair you’re such a hoot, not guilty.

    48. Macart says:

      Y’know other than them statin’ the bleedin’ obvious about Mr Carmichael’s future, didn’t something in the tone of the conversation strike you as truly appalling? I mean the very fact of their discussing the ‘art’ of political lying… an art form?

      How bland can evil be?

      These people are all thoroghly decent, jolly good sorts, a whizz at lunches and f**king dinners who happen to manipulate people, spread fear and panic on a whim, destroy lives and careers and spread f**king misery through their position, their actions and their words.

      Its an art form.

      Pricks.

    49. Chic McGregor says:

      Thanks Petra.

      Chimes with my own thoughts and past posts on lying in politics (and journalism). Will check out those links.

      @Stoker
      Agree
      White lies are done for good reasons generally.

      Normal lying is done for self gain.

      But there is a third type which is lying through addiction to lying. Compulsive lying is a mental illness which strikes around 1 in 2000, from what I have read. It is characterised by the the perpetrator lying for the sake of it, even when there is no personal gain or any other rational other than for a warped sense of self-esteem. They seem to get their biggest kick from making people believe the opposite of whatever that was to start with.

      Those types too, also tend to be attracted to positions where this is enhanced, like politics and journalism.

    50. call me dave says:

      Carmichael’s friends jumping the longboat. Surely not!

      PS:
      SNP will not share a platform with Tories during EU referendum campaign…DOH! I think we all knew that thanks. 🙂
      —————————————————————–

      Nicola Sturgeon has insisted she has no plans to share platforms with David Cameron or George Osborne as part of the campaign to stay within the European Union.

      The SNP leader said she hoped figures other than politicians would come to the fore of the debate and said she would not be campaigning alongside the Prime Minister or Chancellor for a “Yes” vote in the referendum on EU membership promised by the end of 2017.

      Speaking on Sky News’s Murnaghan programme, Ms Sturgeon said: “Well I’ve got no plans to share platforms with David Cameron or George Osborne or anybody else in the Conservative Party.

      “I’ll make a case as leader of the SNP, as First Minister of Scotland, based on my belief that Scotland’s interests and, I would argue, the UK’s interests, are best served by being within the European Union.

      “I hope we see many non-politicians come to the fore of this debate as well and make the positive case for Scotland and the UK remaining within the European Union.

      “Yes, I’ve been perfectly open about the imperfections of the European Union, about the flaws and the deficiencies of the European Union as it currently is, but arguing the case for sensible reforms and also arguing the case that our economic interests are best served by being within.”

      Ms Sturgeon also told the show: “I think what is dangerous about the approach David Cameron is taking right now is that he is taking the UK perilously close to the exit door and I think that’s wrong.”

    51. Iain More says:

      I guess the BBC and the Brit Press and Media generally could run courses on the Art of Political Lying, they do it daily and several times a day.

      @Giving Goose

      I think the Independents are Tories tag extends beyond Highland Council. I think the politically ambitious Tory will stand under any colour of flag if it will get him or her onto the gravy train of a tax payer funded easy salary and big expense account. Not a single elected Fib Doomer or Labour MP/MSP/MEP to my knowledge came out for a Yes vote in Referendum, you would have thought there would be some but no, diehard Unionists to their corrupt rotten cores, that means they are gutless Tories or Kippers that are too gutless to wear the colours they really want to wear.

    52. Petra says:

      @ Cherry says ”IMO AC has pulled all those close to him into this lie. Tavish Scott admits he was told and had to think on it for five days. So how many others did he tell…they keep his secret, and he won’t drop them in it.”

      I think the whole kit and caboodle knew about this Cherry, in particular David Cameron.

      Nicola Sturgeon met with Sylvie Berrman on Thursday the 26th of February.

      A week later, 6th Mar 2015, Pierre-Alain Coffinier the French Consul General, based in Edinburgh, discusses the conversation held between NS and SB with ?.

      As per the Daily Telegraph ”6 Mar 2015 Just had a telephone conversation with Pierre-Alain Coffinier (PAC), the French CG. He was keen to fill me in on some of the conversations his Ambassador had during her visit to Scotland last week. All of this was given on a confidential basis, so please limit any onward circulation …..

      The leaked document was drafted by a Whitehall official after Coffinier called the FCO (Foreign and Commonwealth Office), as protocol requires, to pass on a confidential account of several of the ambassador’s meetings in Edinburgh, which included a meeting with Alistair Carmichael, the Scottish secretary…

      The FCO official who took down Coffinier’s account was so surprised he questioned whether Sturgeon’s words had been mistranslated. But Coffinier reassured him the meeting had been conducted entirely in English, as the French team is fluent in the language.’’

      The memo was leaked on the 3rd of April. Five weeks after the meeting between NS and SB and four weeks after PAC discussed the meeting with someone.

      So during that four week period Carmichael never read the memo or discussed it with anyone else? It involved a French Ambassador FGS and Cameron knew nothing about it!

      I don’t think soooooooo ‘rolling eyes’.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvie_Bermann

    53. G4jeepers says:

      O/T4

      For anyone interested in the Trident debate, here’s the hansard transcript

      http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmhansrd/cm150528/debtext/150528-0004.htm#15052841000177

    54. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Also O/T…

      Thepnr is looking for bums to fill the seats on a minibus through to the WOS get-together in Helensburgh on 25/26th July.

      Further info at ‘off-topic’, where you can book your seat.

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/off-topic

    55. Jim Thomson says:

      Is there any way that the funders of Carmichael’s defence can be identified? Chances are that he’ll not be out of pocket for the duration of the case.

      Which is probably why he’s not looking too bothered.

    56. Thepnr says:

      Just to add to Brian Doonthetoons comment. The bus will be leaving from the Dundee/Angus area. If anyone on the route would like picked up please leave your moniker on Off Topic.

      Please note that the plan is to travel Saturday late afternoon and return on Sunday so accommodation in the area will be required for one night.

      The venue is being organised by a long time Winger and a founder of Scotland best Independence minded magazine iScot.

      Just in case you haven’t come across it yet the website is here. http://iscot.scot/

    57. Chic McGregor says:

      @Petra
      For those who may have mist M. Coffinier’s categorical denial in regard to the alleged content of his phone conversation with the FCO. unnamed person, here is one example of many.

      http://news.sky.com/video/1458622/french-official-no-sturgeon-leak

    58. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      Of the two ‘leadership’ candidates for the lib dems Norman Lamb is already trying to distance himself from the smearing liar Carmichael while getting one up on Tim Farron for doing so first.

      Norman Lamb takes issue with Malcolm Bruce over Carmichael affair

      Norman then rounded up his speech with a summary of why he is standing for the leadership, based on liberal values.

      As the first question, I asked him whether we should be preparing to book flights to Lerwick to help in an Orkney and Shetland by-election.

      Norman was very clear that what Alistair Carmichael did was wrong, and he condemned it. He said that we need to have a fresh start where we put breaches of trust behind us and never repeat them. I was pleasantly surprised that Norman said he disagreed with Malcolm Bruce when he (Bruce) defended Camichael saying that all politicians lie. Norman said that is wrong and that all politicians do not lie and shouldn’t lie. Some lie, but shouldn’t, he said.

      http://liberalburblings.co.uk/

      A pretty open pitch for votes to (what is left of the) lib dem grass roots since most will have worked out that standing by an obvious liar and someone who is toxic to their party is one of the biggest reasons they were annihilated in the first place.

      Hence why doing it again with the lying smearer Carmichael might not be the brightest of ideas. Particularly for 2016 and beyond. It’s also why it’s self-evidently advantageous for a leadership candidate to put as much distance between themselves and the liar Carmichael as possible.

      Meanwhile, the liars Carmichael and Rennie’s odious paid minions and spinners at lib dem HQ are already scraping the bottom of the barrel promoting bigoted anti-scottish clickbait (the usual low I.Q. SNP BAD! stuff) in the Daily Mail in a farcical attempt to deflect attention away from their role in the scottish lib dem dirty tricks scandal.

      Just when you think their rabid hatred and smears couldn’t get any worse, the Liar Dems call in THE DAILY MAIL to do their dirtywork.

      Says it all.

      Roll on 2016.

      Then we’ll see just what the scottish voter thinks of their dirty tricks with Carmichael and Rennie as the face of their party in scotland. If they thought this May Election was bad for them, well it can and will get far, far worse for them with Carmichael as the new Clegg. 😉

    59. Chic McGregor says:

      missed

    60. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      Of the two ‘leadership’ candidates for the lib dems Norman Lamb is already trying to distance himself from the smearing liar Carmichael while getting one up on Tim Farron for doing so first.

      Norman Lamb takes issue with Malcolm Bruce over Carmichael affair

      Norman then rounded up his speech with a summary of why he is standing for the leadership, based on liberal values.

      As the first question, I asked him whether we should be preparing to book flights to Lerwick to help in an Orkney and Shetland by-election.

      Norman was very clear that what Alistair Carmichael did was wrong, and he condemned it. He said that we need to have a fresh start where we put breaches of trust behind us and never repeat them. I was pleasantly surprised that Norman said he disagreed with Malcolm Bruce when he (Bruce) defended Camichael saying that all politicians lie. Norman said that is wrong and that all politicians do not lie and shouldn’t lie. Some lie, but shouldn’t, he said.

      [:source – LiberalBurblings blog]

      A pretty open pitch for votes to (what is left of the) lib dem grass roots since most will have worked out that standing by an obvious liar and someone who is toxic to their party is one of the biggest reasons they were annihilated in the first place.

      Hence why doing it again with the lying smearer Carmichael might not be the brightest of ideas. Particularly for 2016 and beyond. It’s also why it’s self-evidently advantageous for a leadership candidate to put as much distance between themselves and the liar Carmichael as possible.

      Meanwhile, the liars Carmichael and Rennie’s odious paid minions and spinners at lib dem HQ are already scraping the bottom of the barrel promoting bigoted anti-scottish clickbait (the usual low I.Q. SNP BAD! stuff) in the Daily Mail in a farcical attempt to deflect attention away from their role in the scottish lib dem dirty tricks scandal.

      Just when you think their rabid hatred and smears couldn’t get any worse, the Liar Dems call in THE DAILY MAIL to do their dirtywork.

      Says it all.

      Roll on 2016.

      Then we’ll see just what the scottish voter thinks of their dirty tricks with Carmichael and Rennie as the face of their party in scotland. If they thought this May Election was bad for them, well it can and will get far, far worse for them with Carmichael as the new Clegg. 😉

    61. MolliBlum says:

      So he’s great company, tells filthy jokes, and is just the kind of guy journalists love to invite for lunch… (yeah, who cares whether he actually does anything for his constituents as long as he’s the life and soul of the all-expenses-paid party?) Mhairi Black is absolutely spot on when she describes Westminster as a “boys’ club”.

    62. MolliBlum says:

      @ Donald Urquhart:

      “I’m now wondering if Carmichel has them all by the short and curlies, by threatening to reveal who knew what, and when, about the memo”

      You may well have a point there, Donald. But if he really is holding them all to ransom, it’s unfortunately the people of Orkney and Shetland who are paying the price… and they deserve better.

    63. The Rough Bounds. says:

      Mist? Have I missed something?

    64. The Rough Bounds. says:

      So now we know: Not only is Alistair Carmichael a liar, he is foul mouthed as well. So much so indeed that people are unable to repeat on radio what he says.

    65. Chic McGregor says:

      @The Rough Bounds
      “Mist? Have I missed something?”

      Yeah, my ‘Missed’ correction above. But I deserved the rebuke. 🙂

    66. Dr Jim says:

      @Call me Dave

      Damn does this mean Eddie Izzard’s coming back

    67. Chic McGregor says:

      @Dr Jim
      “Damn does this mean Eddie Izzard’s coming back”

      He can’t come back until he knows his new name, which will probably be:

      (insert new Labour leader’s first name here) Izzarder.

    68. Clootie says:

      Remember that there is no upside for Carmichael. Win or lose. Out of pocket or not. His reputation and credibility is destroyed. It will not blow over as he hoped…don’t let the bluster and false smile fool you. He is in big trouble.

      Liam and Tavish will also suffer more and more damage as they support a known liar. The party first and truth second game will not go down well in Orkney and Shetland.

    69. Petra says:

      boris says O/T

      http://caltonjock.com/2015/05/31/uk-government-quietly-rewrites-hacking-laws-to-give-gchq-immunity/

      Thanks for that Boris. ANOTHER example of the UK Dictatorship.

    70. HandandShrimp says:

      I’m a tad bemused that Alistair is a Max Miller Blue Book/White Book after dinner speaker.

      Who would have thunk it?

    71. Petra says:

      Weegingerdug’s latest. Brilliant as usual.

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/

    72. Rock says:

      ronald russell,

      “If a member of the public lied whilst giving a statement to the police there would be hell to pay.”

      There are two branches of the law in Scotland.

      One for the plebs.

      And the other for the ruling classes.

    73. Joemcg says:

      Alistair Darling has set up a limited company to protect his “brand image” the former MP has also doubled his salary in the last year doing speeches on the circuit. Better for him together. Sickening.

    74. heedtracker says:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-32428648

      Did great laugh Carmichael commit electoral fraud?

      Tower Hamlets First, Mr Rahman’s party, said the judgement was a “shock” and it was seeking further legal advice in relation to a judicial review.
      Mr Mawrey – who sat as a judge – said the mayor had “driven a coach and horses through election law and didn’t care”.

      In the Election Court judgement, he said the effect of his ruling that Mr Rahman’s election was void meant it was as if the election “had never taken place” and he had not lawfully been mayor since he was re-elected for a second term on 24 May 2014.

      Mr Rahman ran a “ruthless and dishonest campaign to convince the electorate his rival John Biggs was a racist”, Mr Mawrey said.

      So why did Carmichael leak the memo, despite admitting it was “incorrect” and after he was caught?

      Mr Carmichael ran a “ruthless and dishonest campaign to convince the electorate his rival Nicola Sturgeon was a liar”

      The one defence for Carmichael in court, Sturgeon wasn’t his electoral rival?

      Why did he do it then? Yet to hear any of teamGB’s finest liggers ask him, over to you Andrew Neil, BBC Scotch Cringer of the year, well all of them really.

    75. One_Scot says:

      The more you think about this, if Carmichael does get away with this, it basically means that every answer any politician gives to anyone can be challenged as being absolute bollocks.

      You can almost hear James Cook saying, ‘Sorry, but I believe that answer to be absolute bollocks.’

    76. Andrew Brown says:

      O/T STV Thursday 4th June Susan Calman hosts “The Lie”. Discuss.

    77. Petra says:

      O/T

      The malignant narcissist (one of them) whom I was referring to earlier.

      Tony Blair ‘In £330,000 demand for hunger talk’.

      ‘A SPEECH by Tony Blair at a world hunger conference was dropped after the former Prime Minister allegedly demanded a massive £330,000 fee (for twenty minutes), it has emerged.’

      Time this man was bl**dy well locked up.

      http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/581161/Tony-Blair-wanted-330-000-hunger-talk

    78. SOG says:

      The name of Damien McBride, interviewed in that BBC recording, seems familiar. Someone with that name used to feature in Guido Fawkes’ excellent and abrasive blog of Parliament (the Southern one). It must have been a different chap, as the one I remember was a Labour spinner who vanished in messy circumstances. Or my memory is faulty.

      As for that nice Mr Carmichael and the court case, I feel I should chance a bet on him confessing after the event, doesn’t he have form?

    79. @Andrew Brown says:

      O/T STV Thursday 4th June Susan Calman hosts “The Lie”. Discuss

      That’ll be a bundle of laughs then, imaginary tweets allowed.

    80. orri says:

      One wonders if the Lib Dems will elect a leader with sufficient intelligence and integrity to realise that even should Carmichael not put himself up for re-election he can always be given the bums rush from their party. Otherwise by the same logic that tries to tie the actions of one member of the SNP to another they must condone the leaking of information in order to undermine an opposing party.

    81. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      O/T

      As is my wont,when feeling a little thoughtful I dig up the Irish declaration of an independent republic on the 24 April 1916 and contemplate what a nation of shitebags and fannies we Scots must actually be.
      All we had to do was walk through the door of a polling staion
      It is the obligation of my generation of nationalists to ensure that our young folk must never be infected by the cringevirus that defeated us last year.

    82. Joemcg says:

      Watch it Dave. You will have the PC brigade on here stamping their feet with that comment. I however agree with you.

    83. Paula Rose says:

      PC – the Perfidious Cringe?

    84. BuckieBraes says:

      Several hours after first listening to this clip, I am still trying to assimilate the concept of Alistair Carmichael as the Roy Chubby Brown of the Lib Dems.

      He’s certainly chubby; but apart from that I can’t make it work. There are times when the brain simply refuses to cooperate in forming a mental image, and this is one of them.

    85. call me dave says:

      McLeish and Rowley on Radio 4 five minutes ago sifting through the debris of the election. “What do labour stand for”

      Kirkcaldy folk giving them (labour) thumbs down.

      “We need to apologise” says Rowley and move on. “Moving to the left” suggests others. But Henry disagrees and Richard Baker (aye him) says there were plenty of labour socialist policies.

      “Maybe labour will call the next referendum with two questions” says Henry. (Never said what the questions will be) 🙁

      Rowley “The new leader must connect with the people and regain trust or labour will not survive in Scotland”.
      ————————————————
      They better get going, about 11 months until the polls open!

    86. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill & Joemcg –

      FWIW, I agree too.

      This is exactly how it felt for many of us on Sep 19th (and a goodly while thereafter) and – be warned – it is about as un-PC as it gets:

      Team America, ‘Vomit Scene’ –

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvMduWKHNpY

    87. fred blogger says:

      Petra
      yep shameful.

    88. call me dave says:

      Patrick Harvie, the co-convener of the Scottish Greens, has announced he will stand in a first-past-the-post seat at next year’s Holyrood election.

      Mr Harvie will contest the Glasgow Kelvin constituency in next May’s poll. He has been a Green MSP for the Glasgow region since 2003, elected under the proportional “list” system.

      Mr Harvie will remain top of his party’s list for the election, but said the “time is right” for him to contest the constituency seat.

      He said he was “delighted” to be standing for the Kelvin constituency, which is currently help by the SNP’s Sandra White.

    89. Jim McIntosh says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill
      10:22

      Your post is a reason why I wish there was a ‘like’button to click on this blog.

    90. call me dave says:

      I switched channels right after the penalty but missed the rammy at the end. That looks like a genuine left hook!

      https://archive.is/6k4pe

    91. Chic McGregor says:

      Disappointing re Patrick Harvie, since to me it says wrong decision by the SNP.

      Looks like Greens and SSP possibly, bon amis a la 2011 is at an end.

      2016, while never a gimme, just got a whole lot harder.

    92. dakk says:

      Dave McEwan Hill 10.22

      I dont doubt Scotland has its fair share of shitebags,but all the No voters I know( and that is vast majority of people I know unfortunately for me) are closet but transparent one nation BritNats.

      Scotland doesnt even register for them,so fear was not a factor other than of losing their British national identity,sadly.

    93. Andrew Haddow says:

      @Chic McGregor

      May knock tactical list Green vote on head though. #everycloud

    94. tartanarse says:

      I still think that Scotland got diddled in September using fraudulent postal votes and other measures.

      The division that this has caused between Nat and Brit and Nat v Nat is just a lovely wee by product.

      Lets not argue with each other but keep trying to convince the fuckwits that British don’t exist and that the very concept is a fucking non manly (or womanly) embarrassment to anyone with Scottish blood and a pulse.

      Keep asking them what their British compatriots are doing for them.

    95. Chic McGregor says:
    96. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Chic McG (12.10) –

      You’ll be aware of the Scottish Left Project already, but I’m posting this link for anyone else who may be intrigued by your comment.

      Personally, I hae ma doots about this stuff, and I know I’m not the only one in the SSP who is standing well back, biting the tongue, and waiting to see how things develop.

      The whole idea of the SSP was to bring disparate left-leaning groups together. It did that, and did it brilliantly. It secured socialist representation in Holyrood – but we all know what happened next.

      If there is any political organisation in this country which knows the folly of relying on ‘personalities’ and ‘celebrities’ to promote their cause, it’s the SSP. The Scottish Left Project has many good people on-board, and a lot of them are already familiar names to indy-minded folk. Nothing wrong with that. But not one of those people, no matter how decent and progressive they may be, can or should expect that the SSP will be assimilated into a media-focussed protest movement. The SSP is a political party – it doesn’t exist to provide extras for someone else’s flash-mob stunts.

      RIC is one thing. SSP is another. The nascent SLP is something else again. Everyone involved in any of them would do well to ponder the differences, elsewise we could all lose out in the end.

      http://leftproject.scot/2015/left-project-welcomes-ssp-support-for-a-new-left-electoral-alliance-2016/#comment-267

    97. Soda says:

      At some point over the next 5 years the realisation will dawn on most people that the only way we will gain our independence is by UDI.

    98. manandboy says:

      Did I just hear somebody say ‘f**k Independence, I want a career in politics ‘cos the money’s so good. Nah, must’ve imagined it.

    99. john king says:

      I have a question!

      can anyone explain to me who (when Cameron talks of “the most powerful devolved parliament in the world”) is he in fact comparing us to?

      the only other contenders I can think of are Greeenland, and Hong Kong, and in fact does his assertion hold any validity?
      or is he just talking pish in the hope no one will bother to check it?

    100. Early Ball says:

      This reminds me of the Harold Macmillan quote when he was informed of the Profumo scandal. “Nonsense he went to Harrow”

    101. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @ Giving Goose

      “ming” Campbell

    102. heedtracker says:

      Well there you go, BBC r4 Thought for the Day sermon slot all about political corruption in the UK!

      Its wasn’t, it was all FIFA. Reverend Father Someone or other really hates corruption in FIFA and finance.

    103. manandboy says:

      Have the no voters got it yet – does anyone know? Does the train have to crash into the gorge before the passengers will listen to the warnings. Can they not hear the sounds of the Tories tearing their future to shreds?

    104. Lollysmum says:

      O/T
      Lord Purvis launches Constitutional Convention Bill via BBC

      https://archive.is/0E2E5

    105. Robert Peffers says:

      @dakk says: 1 June, 2015 at 12:30 am:

      “Scotland doesnt even register for them,so fear was not a factor other than of losing their British national identity,sadly.”

      There is no such thing as British Nationality, Dakk.

      Britain is not a nation – it is a group of islands that contain eight nations and four of those are in a political union called the United Kingdom and there is one Republic and three non-UK Crown Protectorates. Britnats want to force all the non-UK states into being one nation.

      Stop doing their work for them by substituting Britain for the United Kingdom. If a person is born in, or adopts, any of the eight countries of the British Isles they are British and the United Kingdom cannot take being British away from them whether the country the live in is in or out of the United Kingdom.

    106. heedtracker says:

      BBC r4 Today very sad about FPTP voterising UKOK style and say it must be changed as voting has changed in teamGB and Electoral Reform Society say SNP have too many Westminster seats.

      They didn’t. They say voters have changed and so UKOK election has to aswell, for the democracy n shit.

      Its funny how teamGB was very happy with FPTP three party Westminster and then LibDems committed suicide.

      At least BBC ligggers have switched from SNP bad to FIFA bad, today at least but I dont get BBC radio in Scotland garbage.

    107. galamcennalath says:

      Lollysmum says:
      “Lord Purvis launches Constitutional Convention Bill via BBC”

      Just read that. Well meaning ideas, but probably no chance that it will come to anything! There are too many vested interests in the status quo.

      There are constitutional changes which could be made and result it a future for the Union. However on these issues WM politicians seem to lag years behind events on the ground. If anything comes out of this Constitutional Convention Bill, it will be too little too late, again.

      A much simpler solution to the ‘Scotland problem’ is available.

    108. Lollysmum says:

      O/T

      Pete Wishart ‘Tory plans for EVEL are a rushed through mess’via the National

      https://archive.is/LHaWY

    109. Alan Mackintosh says:

      John King, exactly! Have been wondering about that for a while. It would be useful to have that very point clarified, if only to allow the question to be poised ready to deploy when ever Mundell or some other, starts to spout that stuff. Most devolved parliament…(apart from here there and everywhere)

    110. Macart says:

      Hmmm, just looking at the recent posts filled in Scotland. Richard Keen as Advocate General, Andrew Dunlop and Tomkins in the Scotland office…

      … Now what with EVEL making some headlines and the proposal for a constitutional convention, you don’t suppose that WM is about to have a tilt at the independence of Scottish law and the constitutional arrangement all in one fell swoop.

      I dunno, you just get the feeling they’re putting pieces in place. Spidey sense tingling.

    111. galamcennalath says:

      manandboy says:
      “Have the no voters got it yet – does anyone know?”

      No voters aren’t a homogeneous group. So the best answer I can think of is, some of them will get it much sooner than others!

      A great piece of research is Lord Ashcroft’s referendum exit poll. A summary is …

      http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Lord-Ashcroft-Polls-Referendum-day-poll-summary-1409191.pdf

      Why did people vote No? Table 6

      The BritNats, who can never be converted, 27% of NOs.

      Believe in more powers within the ‘safety’ of Union, 25% of NOs.

      Those who were got at by Project Fear, 47% of NOs.

      As the scare stories of Project Fear become a reality within the Union, and few powers are devolved, there are a lot of NOs who can potentially ‘get it’.

    112. Robert Peffers says:

      @Lollysmum says: 1 June, 2015 at 8:18 am:

      “Lord Purvis launches Constitutional Convention Bill via BBC

      https://archive.is/0E2E5

      There is only one constitutional reform that might have saved their precious Union but the chance for that reform is long gone. That reform was to get the unelected Parliament of the country of England to hell out of the United Kingdom parliament.

      Then all four United Kingdom countries getting exactly the same per capita funding for the same devolved functions with only such as Foreign Policy and Defence remaining as UK functions and with equal UK representation on the federal unit that deals with those functions.

      Anything else leaves England still acting as the master race domination everyone else.

      Thankfully it is now far too late for anything other than the end of the United Kingdom Parliament. Personally I’m neutral on whether we retain the Royals or not but would probably go for ending the monarchy when the old queen dies.

      Just take back from them the state owned properties and leave them with the ones they actually own, (and there’s not too many of them).

    113. Ken500 says:

      In five years the Demographics will change and Scotland will vote for Independence. There is a new generation born every minute. No more evel Westminster, wasting £Billions of Scotand’s revenues but proper governance in Scotland.

      No Trident/illegal wars but investment in the Clyde and jobs, building turbines, liners and frigates. Developing the Oil on the West. People have had enough of the Westminster/Unionist criminals and their nonsense. Holyrood election campaigns next .

      Conman Cameron troubles are just beginning. Most of his policies will not go through, especially sanctioning the vulnerable and starving them.

    114. Black Joan says:

      @heedtracker @0832
      The really depressing thing about that Today prog “discussion” re electoral reform was the patronising, still-averse-to-change manner of “Dame” Margaret Beckett. One opinion poll (she couldn’t remember where — might have been the Mirror, yeah, right) showed that “the people” want things to stay as they are. This patronising, ennobled Labour person wasn’t having any of the common sense offered up by the Electoral Reform interviewee.

      No mention of how we do things at Holyrood, of course.

    115. Lollysmum says:

      Robert Peffers
      Ah but do they actually own those properties or are they owned by Bahamas based (allegedly)companies? We know the royals don’t miss a trick when it comes to maximising their assets.

      Personally, I favour losing the monarchy to history.

      I can’t see a federal structure working either as it will still be dominated by the biggest country with the loudest voice-England. I’d be delighted to be proved wrong though.

    116. Lollysmum says:

      O/T

      Cameron rules out withdrawing from Human Rights Act via BBC

      https://archive.is/F6dHx

    117. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Macart 8.54 Yept, putting their placemen in positions of authority for the Media assault, & not a word of objection from those Nasty Nats,(isent politics a nice occupation).They have won a couple of skirmishes, not the bloody war & should be on the attack at all times (not excepting appoligies for blatant lies,out of political niceities).Correcting TV Interviewers (live)would be a good start,or refuse to appear ,giving their reasons as a Individual/Party.

    118. Lollysmum says:

      Re my last post-it was via Guardian not BBC!

    119. Grouse Beater says:

      The argument England has a right to greater authority on the basis of having a larger population is bogus.

      Who decreed numbers alone constituted quality?

      So long will English pundits praise English culture, so long will Scottish cultural achievements be classed as second-best or ignored.

      And the BBC is 100% guilty in perpetuating that imbalance.

    120. Clootie says:

      Lord Purvis…at that point I stop reading. How dare unelected people attempt to dictate a way forward.

      Becket / Purvis etc – why should we even listen to these people. They have sold their soul to the system for a poxy title / some dead animal skin and a generous cash source…for life

    121. Grouse Beater says:

      Electoral commission:

      British electoral system out of date: too many SNP got in and not enough Ukip.

      Erm, don’t see a problem. Run it past me again.

    122. Joemcg says:

      Robert-you seem to repeat that mantra about Britain daily! I’m afraid you are barking at the moon as the average BritNat will not listen to you.

    123. Macart says:

      @ronnie

      Well, they’ve got the weight and the exposure to start hitting back with a bit more purpose Ronnie, that’s for sure. Apparently there’s a panorama special on our own FM tonight. Be interesting to see how that’s handled and received.

      On the placemen? Worth keeping an eye on that one.

      Like I say, Spidey sense tingling.

    124. Seasick Dave says:

      On his Wikipedia page he claims to speak French and German.

      Its just a shame that he didn’t proof read the transcript from the French ambassador.

      What’s that? It was all in English anyway?

      It also states that he is a Church of Scotland elder so not sure how smearing, lying and telling filthy stories will go down with the congregation.

    125. EphemeralDeception says:

      @Lollysmum, thanks for the human rights link.

      From what is stated, then English law (itd states UK law in the article) will not require judges to consider the ECHR elements in their deliberations and conclusions.

      This is like in security policy when something is shall(must) or should (may or may not). It means that a prosecution can ignore any elements if changes to should or may.

      The conclusion is simple. If an English judge rules against a defendant or ignores a plaintive then they would have to be prepared, have the time and the money to take their case to Europe. So its mostly a win for the UK Gov.

      How this may impact Scottish law and Scottish cases is not clear. If it did not then frankly I would not care – but I believe many cases will be subject to English law. Eg. Scottish residents having to go to court in England due to the juristiction or Against UK Gov agencies etc.

    126. Fiona says:

      re: change to the voting system

      One thing I do not see mentioned when the MSM mentions this subject is the fact that the SNP won an overall majority at Holyrood under PR: and won a landslide at Westminster under FPTP.

      It seems to me that the lazy approach which suggests that PR is now to be pursued to “rebalance” the results of elections fails to take account of that simple fact. It is true that under PR the majority was smaller, but that is because PR is designed to prevent overall majorities and it does succeed to some extent. FPTP is designed to make it hard for small parties to break through, and, again, it succeeds to some extent.

      Neither system can achieve the covert objective if the electorate are determined enough to see change: and in this case they were.

      It would be nice to have a proper debate about the merits and drawbacks of both systems, rather than flat assertions about the superiority of one or the other, without addressing what we are trying to achieve and why. The answer to that question has to come first, and there are different views which are perfectly legitimate positions.

    127. Fiona says:

      A great con is being perpetrated on the electorate wrt to the Human Rights Act. The current proposals will not change anything very much. It is mere window dressing to appease the UKIP narrative, and the people do not realise that, for the most part.

      The HRA merely served to make it possible to resolve disputes in the UK, rather than having to go to Strasbourg. That was a sensible “reform” (using the word properly, for once) and nobody will benefit at all from reversing it.

    128. call me dave says:

      @Grouse Beater

      Ditto.

      @Lollysmum
      Thanks, how many u-turns is that now I’m trying to keep up.

    129. heedtracker says:

      Look at the buffoonery. FTPT produced loads of troughing SLabour unionist seat warmers for decades which was all fine. They get kicked out, so rancid red tory Graun says its all so wrong.

      “For the electoral system has more than one distorting effect.”

      https://archive.is/RZ0Br

      They don’t vote how we tell them any more. Its a “distorting effect”

      lol:D

    130. Grouse Beater says:

      Robert- I’m afraid you are barking at the moon … the average BritNat will not listen.

      That’s my experience. England is Britain, and Britain is ruled by Westminster, Westminster being considered the seat of ‘English’ government.

      As we see in all it’s ugliness, anything less won’t be tolerated.

    131. ronnie anderson says:

      Wee correction Robert,

      Just take back from them the state owned properties and leave them with the ones they actually own, (and there’s not too many of them).9.02

      Are you including the properties the Crown Estates, claim from people who Die Interstate,I,ve known a few of those situations.

    132. Capella says:

      Robert- I’m afraid you are barking at the moon … the average BritNat will not listen.

      I agree with Robert Peffers and the point is worth stressing and repeating. The average BritNat is not reading WoS. It’s always worth restating for the new and old readers of WoS who don’t get it yet.

    133. Fiona says:

      @ Robert Peffer and Ronnie Anderson

      Would it work if we took from them everything they cannot show a purchase invoice for? Apply that to all the big landowners, in fact. That would at least remove the stuff they stole in the past.

      Then, if they have some form of invoice through the misuse of power and the laws they wrote, we can impose compulsory purchase, taking the land through compulsory purchase based on price paid + inflation as the amount it it is worth.

    134. Fiona says:

      @ Capella

      It is worth repeating, but at the same time, for those who see themselves as british it just looks barking. The sense of identity is not arrived at through reason, and cannot be altered that way, either

    135. Fireproofjim says:

      Ken500
      I am sure you are right. The demographic shift will ensure a Yes majority sooner or later. Has anybody found a graph to show when rising numbers of Yes voters (ie the younger generation) will catch up and overtake the older, (dying off) No voters?
      I hope it is soon. I am one of the older generation (76) but a lifetime SNP supporter and have no intention of dying off before the happy day of independence, but it would be nice to be sure of that.

    136. frogesque says:

      Crowdfunder now at £51,324. tick tock!

      Mr Carmichael, Scotland awaits your answer.

    137. Fiona says:

      @ frogesque

      I think we already have his answer

    138. Grouse Beater says:

      Been making notes last weeks on Greece’s dilemma at the hands of Germany and ‘Wonga’ it’s 7,000 percent interest banks… have reached one conclusion. Essay soon for those interested.

      Meanwhile, worth wringing a last wry laugh out of:
      https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2015/05/30/question-time-a-parody/

    139. Bill Halliday says:

      I’ve just taken the time to listen to the whole R4 item and in some ways it is more horrendous than Malcolm Bruce was. At one stage Voters are likened unto Children believing in the Tooth Fairy and Santa. We know ‘they’ lie and obfuscate but to hear the “artform” explained in detail, to suddenly have your thoughts cast back to the most recent of what might be an example, vis Mundell last week, and suddenly have what you “felt” he was up to proven in all it’s slimey reality and know there is nothing you can do about it, triggers such an instant frustrated rage it becomes easier to see how people are “radicalised”.

    140. Luigi says:

      Fireproofjim says:

      Has anybody found a graph to show when rising numbers of Yes voters (ie the younger generation) will catch up and overtake the older, (dying off) No voters?

      I don’t have a graph but I did a back of the envelope calc, based on the proportions per age class that voted YES:NO in 2014. As things stand (or stood in 2014), it will take 10 years, I’m afraid. However, as we say “events, dear boy!” and who knows what effects of a broken devomax VOW and an EU referendum, not to mention five hard years of Tory majority rule (and throw in a disintegrating Labour party), will have on the older voters. Whatever happens, it ain’t likely to endear soft NO voters to the union.

      On balance, I would say 5-10 years is a reasonable estimate.

    141. Capella says:

      @ Fiona
      I agree. Reason isn’t the BritNat strong point. But I think many people know so little about the history of the UK and its constituent parts that Robert’s occasional “papers” on the subject are worth having. In fact, I think a longer post that can be added to Reference section and then linked as necessary would be a good idea.

      The constitutional arrangements of the UK are going to be something of a talking point over the next few years. Even a BritNat might want to know something about it?

    142. frogesque says:

      @Fiona 10.48

      lol Aye, but two fingers is not an answer, it’s an insult!

      (and I see another tenner has been donated to the pot)

    143. Luigi says:

      Clootie says:

      1 June, 2015 at 9:43 am

      Lord Purvis…at that point I stop reading. How dare unelected people attempt to dictate a way forward.

      It’s not Lord Purvis, it’s Looad Puuuvis.

      He is one of those awful, posh scots that speaks funny. Thankfully, there ain’t that many of them! Tavish Scot and Jackie Ballie sound very similar. Perhaps they are members of an exclusive club.

    144. tartanpigsy says:

      @galamcennalath

      How many times does it need said

      THERE WERE NO EXIT POLLS!!
      And that was deliberate
      Lord Ashcrofts poll was done by phone over 2000ish voters, not the 20,000ish in the GE’s exit poll.

      Regarding another LibDem peer being involved in some commission or other. They are completely exposed as being part of the establishments game.

      This next 5 years is going to be really testing unless something breaks first.
      Regarding No voters, I mentioned the other day that those of us with elderly No voting family or friends should really push the abstention line next time around.
      The Future is Independence should be the jist.

    145. jackie g says:

      Hi All,

      Heard a snippet of a coversation yesterday on the bus between a woman and her son who was maybe 14/15 yrs old.

      Son,
      When i am older don’t think i want to work/live in the UK.

      Mum,
      Might not be an issue son we might not be in the UK Scotland might just be Scotland.

      Son oh that would be different then i could stay here.

      🙂

    146. Capella says:

      Moves afoot over atPacific Quay. Derek Bateman has a new post about it.
      http://derekbateman.co.uk/2015/06/01/the-news-where-you-are/

    147. ronnie anderson says:

      @ frogesque 11.12 I hud anither bite of that particular cherry this morning, & will have another by Friday.

      Cmon Folks lets put the Carmichael crowdfunder tae bed by Friday,get sharing it in all the Indy pages.

    148. @Robert Peffers
      Just for clarity,

      Even when Scotland gets independence we will still be British.

      And the `Great`in Great Britain is just a geographical term to differentiate it from the lesser of the two main islands of the British isles,the lesser being Ireland.

    149. Dr Jim says:

      The SNP must be stopped

      Electoral Reform, Constitutional Convention, More Devolution to England, More Devolution to Councils, More Talk Talk Talk

      The SNP must be stopped, that’s what it all means, the Cash Cow is on it’s way out of the Union, those horrible Oiks the Scots don’t seem to care anymore about the fear we’re trying to inject so we need to find another way

      Invent new laws, change the rules, freeze them out of debate, ignore the law, ridicule them, keep them out of the news, keep them off the Telly,

      Keep pumping out the main message

      SNP Bad, SNP Poverty, SNP Ridiculous, Nicola Sturgeon Harridon Terrible Scottish Woman, Alex Salmond Hates everything English, The Scots hate the English

      We the English sensible and generous Nation have the responsibility to educate the Silly Scots and take care of them
      Thing is some of the English folk are just beginning
      to catch on this might not be true and the ones who haven’t caught on want rid of us anyway

      That’s the problem with the UK strategy, bang on too much about something in a negative way and people get fed up listening to it

      The SNP Can’t be Stopped

    150. ronnie anderson says:

      O/T

      newsnet.scot/2015/05/podcast-news-the-prof-the-news-and-bbc-reporting-scotland/

    151. dakk says:

      Luigi. 11.06 & Fireproofjim

      Just one more reason why I believe we should bring back non voluntary euthanasia. 🙂

    152. boris says:

      Code of Conduct For SPADS

      They are not obliged to be politically impartial, but they do have to keep to a code of conduct which states, amongst other things that Spads should avoid anything which might reasonably lead to the criticism that people paid from public funds are being used for party political purposes.

      The highest standards of conduct are expected of special advisers and, specifically, the preparation or dissemination of inappropriate material or personal attacks has no part to play in the job of being a special adviser as it has no part to play in the conduct of public life.

      Any special adviser ever found to be disseminating inappropriate material will automatically be dismissed by their appointing Minister.

      I wonder if the SPAD acting for Carmichael has been sacked?

    153. heedtracker says:

      Capella says:
      1 June, 2015 at 11:26 am
      Moves afoot over atPacific Quay. Derek Bateman has a new post about it.

      We’ve heard it all before. BBC hires right minded types, promotes right minded types and right minded types say, och we’re so unhappy.

    154. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Capella 11.26 The Bbc jounalists have had over three years to effect how Bbc Pacific Quay is Run & Manage.d, (their Union is London based) the demise of Bbc Scotland wont effect the London jobs. No use now crying, they were party of the Diservice to the Scottish People & we have long long memories.

    155. Calgacus says:

      @Scot Finlayson, the Great is to differentiate between Brittany and Britain.

    156. @Calgacus
      The classical writer, Ptolemy, referred to the larger island as great Britain (megale Britannia) and to Ireland as little Britain (mikra Brettania) in his work, Almagest (147–148 AD).

    157. crazycat says:

      @ Clootie at 9.43

      Margaret Beckett is still an MP (Derby South); being a dame or a knight is different from being a peer and does not debar someone from election to the Commons. The newly-retired Malcolm Bruce has a knighthood (which several people have confused with his being a Lord) and now they’ve given one to Eric Pickles (aargh!).

      If it were up to me, I would abolish the entire Honours system, especially the bits that still refer to the British Empire.

    158. crazycat says:

      @ boris

      I wonder if the SPAD acting for Carmichael has been sacked?

      He’s certainly lost his job – he also declined his “severance” pay. But that’s probably because AC is no longer SoS, so a new Tory SpAd will be required for Mundell, rather than a sacking for breaking the rules.

    159. Robert Peffers says:

      @Lollysmum says: 1 June, 2015 at 9:19 am:

      “Ah but do they actually own those properties or are they owned by Bahamas based (allegedly)companies? We know the royals don’t miss a trick when it comes to maximising their assets.”

      I think you may be missing my point, Lollysmum. Most of the Royal estates, palaces and grace & favour homes actually belong to the state, (I.e. us).

      However, there are some that were actually bought and paid for privately by members of the Royal Family. Here’s a cut & paste, (from Wiki) : –

      Although nominally belonging to the monarch and inherent with the accession of the throne, the Crown Estate, like the Crown Jewels, is not the private property of the reigning monarch and cannot be sold by him or her, nor do any revenues, or debts, from the estate accrue to the monarch, as they no longer govern in person. That role has been replaced by the de facto authority of Parliament.

      The Royal Family is not barred from ownership of private property: Balmoral Castle in Scotland, for example, was purchased by Prince Albert, consort to Queen Victoria, and not by the Queen herself and is not part of the Crown Estate.

      What I’m saying is the Scottish Crown estates retains the properties we own but we really have no legal right to take private property without a legal parliamentary act.

    160. Robert Peffers says:

      @Joemcg says: 1 June, 2015 at 9:51 am:

      “Robert-you seem to repeat that mantra about Britain daily! I’m afraid you are barking at the moon as the average BritNat will not listen to you.”

      Ah! Joemcg, You totally miss the point. I’m not preaching at Britnats.

      I’m preaching at those who ARE NOT BRITNATS for doing the Britnats brainwashing of Scots, Welsh and N.I for them. I know they supporters of independence have been subjected to this propaganda all their lives but they really need to stop going along with these Britnats and using the propaganda lies they spread.

    161. Robert Peffers says:

      @ronnie anderson says: 1 June, 2015 at 10:31 am :

      “Wee correction Robert,”

      Err! No Ronnie, I correctly made the point as we do not have to take back what we already own and that is the Scottish Crown Estate. We have no legal right to take the properties the Royals have bought for themselves. Balmoral was bough by Victoria and there may be a very few others.

      Where we will get trouble is in that in the late 1800s the UK government took the then separate Scottish Crown Estates away from Edinburgh and put them along with the English Crown Estates. Which, (as is usual when it suits the Establishment), includes both the Crown Estate properties of Wales & N.Ireland.

      Historically the Kingdom of England annexed the Principality of Wales in 1284 and Ireland in 1542 and when they signed the Treaty of Union with Scotland it brought in both Wales & Ireland as part of the Kingdom of England.

      Yet as it suited Westminster when they started to devolve the Powers of the bipartite United Kingdom they did so as countries not kingdoms. To Westminster they choose to ignore that the terms United Kingdom refers to a royal realm when it suits them but call it a country when that suits them too.

      Which is why I keep harping on about independence supporters going along with their lies and propaganda. How can we expect to make them stop using these terms as if the were all the same thing if we continue to do the same?

    162. tartanarse says:

      Scott Finlayson at 11.36.

      Great Britain simply means Big Brittany. This was the name given to it by the Bretons who arrived there and settled. They spoke a Brytonic (spelling?) language that survives now as Welsh and a bit of Cornish.

      These folks were dark haired and dark eyed as can be still seen today amongst the Welsh and Cornish.

      These folks also lived in Ireland, where the same features are also prevalent.

      Ireland, like Scotland, also had residents of fair hair, blue eyes and pale skin.

      Ireland, like Scotland did tend to mix these two folks together, creating much ginger. The white folk spoke Goidelic (Gaelic language).

      Some of the folks in Scotland spoke the Brytonic language which is still evident in many place names today that resemble those of Wales.

      Abergavennny and Aberdeen for example.

      These Celtic peoples seemed to have more in common than not and the fact that they have assimilated well in areas commonly thought to have been aggressive is testament to this.

      Two sepearte peoples brought together in two countries, Ireland and Scotland, one group of which can be largely found alone and unassimilated in the form of Wales and England contains hardly any English(Anglo Saxons) but more than its fair share of Welsh, Scottish and Irish.

      Scots are far more Celtic than they are British. Britishness does not exist. If it did then we would be forced to at the very least call it Welsh.

    163. Calgacus says:

      @Scot Finlayson, thanks Scot,I hadn’t heard of Ireland being named in that way.

      The Romans divided what is now England into Brittania Superior and Brittania Inferior but the modern usage of Great Britain is, I am pretty sure, to differentiate from “little” Brittany.

    164. Clydebuilt says:

      Political lying has been elevated to an Art form. Deeming it is as useful to humanity as picaso’s skill with a brush or an artisan with their tools. Eh NAW! When that big pompous oaf tried to damage SCotland’s first ministers reputation thus influencing the G. E. There was nothing useful or good occurring, other than keeping arrogant pompous slobs in the luxury they believe is their right. Come to think of it that’s democracy UK style.

    165. Petra says:

      @ Macart says ”Hmmm, just looking at the recent posts filled in Scotland. Richard Keen as Advocate General, Andrew Dunlop and Tomkins in the Scotland office…

      … Now what with EVEL making some headlines and the proposal for a constitutional convention, you don’t suppose that WM is about to have a tilt at the independence of Scottish law and the constitutional arrangement all in one fell swoop. I dunno, you just get the feeling they’re putting pieces in place. Spidery sense tingling…”

      Macart I get the same feeling too. The pieces ARE being put in place: To what end?

      I notice that Keen (or his wife as per Keen) donates to the Tory Party. Keen the expert on Scots Law. One big cabal running the country.

      Changes, changes!

      Scrapping the Human Rights Act

      The Gagging Bill

      http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/38-degrees/video-what-is-britains-new-gagging-bill

      And something else to be concerned about pointed out by Boris.

      @ boris says O/T

      http://caltonjock.com/2015/05/31/counter-terrorism-and-bulk-surveillance-powers-the-tory-weve-got-a-majority-government-proposals/

      New Legislation – Counter Terrorism and Bulk Surveillance Powers

      ”David Anderson QC, (another Scot), is the official reviewer of counter-terrorism legislation. He was asked by government to conduct an independent review of the operation and regulation of investigatory powers, with specific reference to the interception of communications and communications data. He delivered his report to Downing Street on 6 May, the day before the general election.”

      ‘’David’s practice is built on his expertise in European Union law, developed with the help of skills learned working in Brussels and Washington DC and teaching at King’s College London. The other foundation of his practice is human rights law.”

      He says ”Parliament asked me, in particular, to consider:

      (a) current and future threats to the United Kingdom.

      (b) the capabilities needed to combat those threats.

      Now we know that the focus will be on terrorism but I think we should all be keeping a close eye on this new legislation.

    166. Macart says:

      I suspect the upcoming major constitutional issues is where these placements will prove significant – Smith proposals, EU, Human Rights. They know they have a fight on their hands in Scotland without the usual tame MPs to count on for votes, so I believe they may be looking for ways to circumnavigate a strong Scottish parliamentary presence or objection.

    167. Petra says:

      Robert Peffers says ”Err! No Ronnie, I correctly made the point as we do not have to take back what we already own and that is the Scottish Crown Estate.”

      This is what we’re up against.

      ‘The mystical union of the crowns and the mythical subsidies from England!’

      Scottish “Crown Estates” Speech by Jacob Rees-Mogg

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-k4q-mbqNk

    168. Craig says:

      O/T

      Nicola Sturgeon backs more powers for the islands

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-32956331

      “However, Liberal Democrat MSP Tavish Scott said any power being devolved needed to be real power and not just a “cheque handed to communities”.

      Funny how Tavish Scott wants real power for the Islands but not for Scotland as an nation, guess this idiot doesn’t understand that if Scotland HAD real powers, it would be in a postition to give real powers to the islands

    169. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ah, All Souls College, Balliol College and Kings College Oxford, the forge at the heart of British imperialism. It was at Balliol that Alfred Milner, 1st Viscount Milner, would befriend Arnold Toynbee, who went on to become a prominent economic historian.

      Toynbee had a profound influence on the self-proclaimed Fabian socialist, Viscount Milner.

      There are many men now active in public life, and some whose best work is probably yet to come, who are simply working out ideas inspired by him – Viscount Milner

      Milner’s outlook was inspired by such, shaping the three guiding principles of his Kindergarten.

      – The belief that the the history of the British Empire was the unfolding of a great moral idea – freedom – and that the unity of the Empire would be best preserved by the cementing of the idea. [Through education and propaganda the English masses could be drilled with the belief that the Empire was the best means of spreading English freedom to the rest of the world.]

      – Every man must have a sense of duty and obligation to serve the State. [Only by serving the State can one have a valid investment in their own freedom and the means of preserving and spreading that freedom. Every man must feel connected to the Empire, and only by working for the betterment of the Empire can one feel a vested interest in expanding its power and influence.]

      – There must be a feeling of necessity to do social service work (especially education) among the working classes. [Only by improving the education of the lower classes can British Imperialism survive. The previous two principles cannot be developed without educating the whole mass of the British Empire. The need to improve the working classes and instilling them with the idea of English civility drove Milner to drive England towards Socialism and a stronger Imperial connection.]

      http://www.carrollquigley.net/pdf/The_Anglo-American_Establishment.pdf

      Milner’s Credo was:

      I am a Nationalist and not a cosmopolitan …. I am a British (indeed primarily an English) Nationalist. If I am also an Imperialist, it is because the destiny of the English race, owing to its insular position and long supremacy at sea, has been to strike roots in different parts of the world. I am an Imperialist and not a Little Englander because I am a British Race Patriot … The British State must follow the race, must comprehend it, wherever it settles in appreciable numbers as an independent community. If the swarms constantly being thrown off by the parent hive are lost to the State, the State is irreparably weakened. We cannot afford to part with so much of our best blood. We have already parted with much of it, to form the millions of another separate but fortunately friendly State. We cannot suffer a repetition of the process.

      http://powerbase.info/index.php/Alfred_Milner,_1st_Viscount_Milner

      http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/29113822?searchTerm=racial+stereotype

      I am still at a loss as to understand how a ‘socialist’ can also be a racist who supports imperialism. Btw, the friendly state that had leeched so many of England’s finest, was the USA.

    170. @tartanarse
      Brittany was settled by immigrants from Great Britain in the 6th Century AD fleeing from the Angles and Saxons that is how Brittany got its name.

      As I said earlier the name Great Britain was used to differentiate it from lesser Britain `Ireland`in the 1st and 2nd Century.

    171. tartanarse says:

      Scott, These dark haired and dark eyed Brytonic Celts travelled from the med. through France and onto mainland Britain, not the other way round.

      Even if you consider that Britain wasn’t always an island, the dark folks didn’t begin life north of the continent and work down, they worked up.

      The archaeology demonstrates this.

    172. @tartanarse
      Yes I totally agree about the migrations of peoples,but the original query was the Name `Great Britain`and the first mention of the name was to differentiate it from lesser/smaller Britain what is today called Ireland.

      Having had my own Ancestral DNA tested and through my fatherline 67% is split between Spain and France only 10% Scotland and 6% Ireland and 10% Norway 5% Italy 1% Northern Greece/Bulgaria and 0.5% Western Russia.

      Fascinating subject the movement or migrations of the tribes and peoples of Europe/World and there causes.

    173. Fred says:

      Guys, Scotland’s Welsh origins are generally understated, the language survived here in pockets until the 14th century, the Britons of Strathclyde, its capital at Dumbarton, having been assimilated into the kingdom of the Picts & Scots. The oldest Welsh poetry comes from Scotland not Wales. The Pictish language/languages are unknown, was it Welsh? Many of the names we are told have a Gaelic origin are in fact Welsh.

      Excellent wee book, “Welsh Origins of Scottish Place-Names” by William Oxenham, ISBN 0-86381-957-5 @ £6.50

    174. @Fred
      Manaw Gododdin was the narrow coastal region on the south side of the Firth of Forth, part of the Brythonic-speaking Kingdom of Gododdin in the post-Roman Era. It is notable as the homend of Cunedda prior to his conquest of North Wales,

      The arrival in Wales of Cunedda of Manaw Gododdin in c. 450 is traditionally considered to be the beginning of the history of modern Wales.

      The Romans were in Wales for over 300 years ,the people used as slaves to mine the copper and gold and lead and silver.



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