The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland


The Auld Sang

Posted on February 04, 2022 by

We’ve observed that over the last few days a number of Unionists, led by tuba-honking dunderhead Blair McDougall (the man who turned a 30-point No lead into a 10-point one, who lost Labour 5000 votes when he stood in East Renfrewshire in 2017 on the basis of being the guy who saved the UK – trailing in an embarrassing 3rd in a seat where Jim Murphy had once won over 50% of the vote – and who is probably more responsible than any other individual for the utter destruction of Scottish Labour as a political force), have revived the ancient “Better Together” scare story about pensions in an independent Scotland.

So as a small public service, we republish below this article from November 2016 on the subject, which remains an accurate and up-to-date summation of the reality.

NOTE: Since the indyref it has been established that UK “pensions” are in fact legally no such thing – they’re a benefit, paid for by taxation. The notion that they’re actually a pension in any normal sense of that word is a misleading falsehood perpetrated by the UK Government. However, that fact alters absolutely none of the below.

——————————————————————————–

What They Expect You To Believe
25 November 2016

For some reason the Unionist community has this week been turning the bullhorn up to maximum on the subject of pensions. Most likely provoked by the publication of Dr Craig Dalzell’s fascinating “Beyond GERS”, the usual suspects have returned to the scaremongering tactics deployed during the indyref, attempting to terrorise the elderly with blood-curdling threats of destitution once again.

mcdougallpensions

It’s a bewildering approach, given that the situation regarding pensions is one of the few around independence about which there is known certainty. The UK government already pays the state pension to millions of people outside the UK, under rules which would apply in exactly the same way if Scotland became a “foreign” country.

But just for fun, let’s look at exactly what the situation would be in the monumentally implausible event that Blair McDougall was telling the truth for once.

The claim being made, remember, is that an independent Scotland would have to fund the pensions of all existing pensioners in Scotland – that is, at the moment of independence the rUK would instantly abandon all responsibility for people who have paid their National Insurance contributions to the UK Treasury for their whole lives, and expect the Scottish Government to pick up the tab.

So what would that mean in practice?

(1) There are currently approximately 900,000 pensioners in Scotland. They are all UK citizens, and would remain so after independence. The UK government’s own “Scotland Analysis” paper on the subject in January 2014 said:

citizenshipsa

(Additionally, there are people of working age who have already paid enough contributions to be entitled to their pension, but aren’t yet actually in receipt of it.)

The legal difficulties in suddenly depriving a million-plus UK citizens of their fully-paid-up pensions – which would almost certainly ultimately involve having to strip them of their citizenship against their will, even though most of them would very likely have voted No and all of them would still be living exactly where they had been before – would be unimaginably immense, and in reality impossible.

(2) To have even a chance of successfully doing so, the rUK government would also have to take away the pensions of all UK expat pensioners living elsewhere in the world. There are currently around 5.5 million UK expats entitled to vote, and while few of them currently exercise that right, any government proposing to take their pensions away might find a sudden spectacular spike in democratic engagement that was not to its advantage. It would be political suicide.

(3) Otherwise, a situation would arise where, say, a 75-year-old woman born and raised in Kent for her entire life who wanted to emigrate and spend her twilight years with family elsewhere would be allowed to retire to Spain or France or Canada or Australia or anywhere else on the face of the planet without losing her pension, but uniquely be forbidden from moving to Scotland on pain of being made penniless overnight.

(4) This would be extra-stupid because governments LOVE it when pensioners retire abroad. They might have to keep paying their pensions, but once someone reaches pension age they’re usually a net fiscal drain on society in countless other ways, especially health, and the cold harsh truth is that governments are glad to be rid of them. As such, anything that discourages them from leaving the country is economically idiotic.

(5) Indeed, it would be likely to create a huge surge in what would effectively if not technically be immigration, as thousands of expensive-to-service UK citizens were forced to flood back into the country because their source of income had been taken away and they could no longer afford to live elsewhere.

It’s an idea so farcical it pains us to even have to be spelling it out. And it should be noted that the UK government has made absolutely clear that it has no intentions of trying to do any of this, because it’s not completely out of its mind.

A couple of weeks before the indyref, an article on the BBC website noted:

bbcpensions

Panicking Unionists have tried to focus on the words immediately after the ones we’ve highlighted in that image, claiming that “it might be dished out via the Scottish Pensions System rather than the UK one”, means the Scottish Government would be paying for the pensions rather than just handling the admin of delivering them.

But that’s a self-evidently ludicrous interpretation – the UK government plainly has no power to “agree” to that on the Scottish Government’s behalf. It can only assert that pensions will be honoured if IT is going to honour them, which means paying for them.

(The subsequent paragraph makes that even clearer by saying that the funding will be more complex for “split entitlement” pensioners whose contributions straddle the date of independence than for those already entitled to or in receipt of a state pension.)

And the White Paper (p144) confirms that the Scottish Government will only take over the administration of existing UK state pension entitlements:

wppensions

The document clearly differentiates between the “UK State Pension” and the “Scottish State Pension” as separate entities, the latter of which people will only accrue entitlements to after independence.

pensionswp2

But the White Paper – a policy proposal, not a binding legal document – is really neither here nor there. The finer technical points of split-entitlement pensions will be something for the two governments to thrash out in negotiations, but the arithmetic is straightforward and the international mechanisms for doing so are already in place.

eupensions1

The idea, however, that the UK government could – or plans to – simply walk away from its responsibility to hundreds of thousands of UK citizens to whom it’s already non-negotiably obligated to pay a pension for life is the sort of madness that no sane person would give a moment’s credence to. There’s a good reason that no UK minister has ever actually said any such thing – they’d be torn limb from limb.

pensionabroad

That Unionists have now taken it from something that was previously only whispered quietly off the record to frightened old folk on their doorsteps to a public threat is a mark of the terrified desperation that has seized them ever since the Brexit vote. If you thought you’d seen Project Fear last time, readers, batten down the hatches.

Print Friendly

    98 to “The Auld Sang”

    1. Stuart says:

      Good morning Stu – happy to be reminded of this and always good to see you on the case. Welcome back. Hope to see more soon.

    2. aulbea1 says:

      Nice morning read – thanks for the reminder, Stu – good to be reading your work??

    3. twathater says:

      Nice to see you have not dropped off the earth ,have you had enough of a rest to get back on the horse , there is work to be getting on with and sturgeons to destroy and dismantle

      As always clowns like bliar mcdonut will always get unionist media attention we all know on here that it doesn’t mater if its the biggest pile of steaming shite the pravda of the north will excrete it

      What is needed Stuart is for you and ALBA to get steamed into sturgeons great giveaway and highlight vociferously and repeatedly the destructive catastrophic damage unmanageable and unnecessary energy charges are going to INFLICT on Scottish families whilst sturgeon has given away resources that could and should be used for the betterment of Scots in Scotland not corporate pirates

    4. Studhog says:

      Blair looks like he stuffed the aforementioned tuba in his under crackers in those two photos.

    5. Marco McGinty says:

      I see that the Labour Party spellcheck team hasn’t improved much!

      He manages three words, then makes a complete arse of it.

    6. ScottieDog says:

      Well I’ve already told my 82 year old dad that he’ll likely be paying for his health care in the next 5 years anyway, as part of the uk.

    7. Morgatron says:

      Aye, heard the Queens 11 manager mention this yesterday at questions at Holyrood.

      Blair McDougall, what a big waist (see what I done there?) of space. He was the gift that kept on giving.

    8. holymacmoses says:

      Funny, I was looking for that piece a couple of days ago to link on Twitter.
      Hope you’re well and the beasts of Bath thriving under your watchful eye. 2022 is going to be an interesting year.

    9. prj says:

      As far as I’m concerned we are in this position because the SNP has not consolidated the truth. They have continuously left the windows open allowing unionists the opportunities every time.

    10. ScottieDog says:

      The brexit together blunder bus strikes again.
      I’ve been informing my 82 year old dad that if we stay in the UK, he will be paying medical fees.
      That’s not project fear.

    11. Awkward Westie says:

      They are obliviously worried that St Nic may have finally figured out the only way she can cling on to the power that she loves so much is actually deliver Indyref2 (as just promising next year, every year isn’t working anymore)… so its time to wheel out the old scare stories as an insurance policy

    12. dan macaulay says:

      ‘they’re a benefit, paid for by taxation’

      paid for by taxation now out of date –

      I thoroughly recommend
      a free course (yes totally free) on Modern Monetary Theory MMT (the ‘magic money tree’), which starts next week Wednesday 9th February 2022 on
      http://www.edx.org
      Modern Monetary Theory: Economics for the 21st Century

      It only takes 2/3 hours per week over 4 weeks,
      all on-line at your own pace (eezy peezy, did it last year)

      It will open yours eyes about “how to pay for it” in a progressive independent Scotland.

    13. Dorothy Devine says:

      I was glad to be reminded of the treacherous whispers on the doorstep – what a pity it couldn’t be shouted from the rooftops but that would require a Scottish media and a Scottish government intent on telling truth to the people.

    14. robertknight says:

      Blair should take some time off to go through the ‘Best Before’ dates on the contents of his fridge. It’d be time far better spent for him, given we don’t need a red-Tory butter ball to try to stuff the prospects of an Indy Scotland – we’ve got the Wokerati and Troughers in She/Her’s NuSNP to do that for us.

      All hail the Dear Leader!

      McDougall…back to the fridge!

      The rest of you – carry on…

    15. Hatuey says:

      “If you thought you’d seen Project Fear last time, readers, batten down the hatches.”

      That’s an interesting sentence.

      All sorts of things spring from that.

    16. Republicofscotland says:

      Undoubtably this pension scaremongering did convince some old folk in Scotland to vote no, that’s probably why its been wheeled out again, and amplified by the unionist media.

      If we ever do get another indyref, then the same old chestnuts that were rolled out in 2014, currency, (another one that’s also in the news right now is the border) pensions as you have mentioned and cleared up, and a few others that the SNP government must make crystal clear to voters.

    17. auld highlander says:

      Over on the Newsnow website the lead story at the top of the Scotland news is an article about pensions from a tribe called
      Capx. I’ve never heard of them so a quick google revealed that capx was founded by the Centre for Policy Studies. Enough said about them but I bet that story stays at the top of the newsnow site all weekend.

      Like millions of us I paid mandatory National Insurance Contributions towards my retirement pension and that raises a different question.

      Would the uk gov be guilty of stealing OUR contributions if we left?

    18. robbo says:

      NOTE: Since the indyref it has been established that UK “pensions” are in fact legally no such thing – they’re a benefit, paid for by taxation. The notion that they’re actually a pension in any normal sense of that word is a misleading falsehood perpetrated by the UK Government. However, that fact alters absolutely none of the below.

      I remember having a debate with an auld codger back in 2014 about this so called pension where he mentioned all the extra contributions he had made into this ‘pension’ and it was under threat and Scotland couldn’t afford it blah blah. LOL

      I said it doesn’t matter if ‘Buffalo Bill fae Maryhill had ever worked or ever will, he/she still gets their ‘pension- benefit the same as you -a few pounds a week less than you! . He said no way , I said Aye the dae. What you paid in in NI is long gone I said- long gone. The younger workers are the ones paying your benefit now. He was well pissed aff.

      The same auld shite will be top of the agenda if the covid queen ever does get a indy2 and she’ll be useless at explaining it. FFS is it no Shirley Ann Sommerville i/c of state pensions. Gid luck wae that eggit explaining anything .

    19. J Galt says:

      My God!

      An article – an obviously densely researched article at that – which addresses and then demolishes what would be a key unionist trope in any future referendum/plebiscite scenario.

      Makes a change from the usual lazy, tired “Boris is an arsehole” shite that seems to be the only stock in trade for various other pro indy blogs.

    20. Sharny Dubs says:

      Good to get a mail.
      Stay strong young man

    21. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      This is something that was well discussed previously it shows the enemy are very scared. I don’t know why the Union is safe under the SNP, we will remain a colony for a long time sadly.

      Nice to hear from you again Stu

    22. X_Sticks says:

      Good to see you’ve still got your eye on the ball Stuart. I had a go at Blair on twitter for regurgitating this old false trope. They never give up with the lies, eh?

    23. James Che. says:

      Rev Stu,
      I take my hat off to ye.

      You are the very first person I have heard saying it as it is.

      The government are very misleading to the rest of the public.
      They make believe by innuendo that they are helping the pensioners voluntary in their old age.

      I like many others have had to compulsary contribute to a government pension pot ,
      out of each pay-packet all my life.

      Two years ago the government intercepted money I was to receive for back payments of some taxes that had become muddled,

      The pensions department wrote to me and stated that as I was behind with the difference for state pension age and took the lot before I ever saw it.

      Unlike so many of the public that are younger
      it is not they whom support us Oldies,
      It is our past contributions that have been spent on what ever the government pleased nowadays leaving most of us high and dry.
      Never mind the back door steal of the 50s women age group, promising 60 was the retirement age then three quarters way through changing the rules.

      Politicians hit pensioners harder than most of the public,
      Thank you for drawing attention to politicians V pensioners on the cross board of politics.

    24. Patsy Millar says:

      Good to see you back with a stoater of an article.

    25. Hatuey says:

      Why has this debate been reignited though? Why now? I’ve got to assume there’s something brewing. I heard some sort of indyref2-related legislation was due to go through HR in the next few days, but I don’t see why that would reignite anything when Agent Nicola is still committed to mission impossible, aka the Section 30 process.

      Interesting that everybody accepts Boris is diabolically dishonest and dishonourable, even a good number of Tories agree, the SNP talk about little else, and yet all the Scottish people and their children need to wait on this dishonest and dishonourable person granting us approval for a referendum.

      The SNP’s position on a section 30 has never been so patently ridiculous. Boris rendered it so.

    26. mogabee says:

      As per you’ve summed it, rounded it up and kicked it straight into the opposite teams goal mouth!!

      Suddenly the day got a little cheerier. 🙂

      Thanks Stu!!

    27. James Che. says:

      Robbo.

      The young ones have been brainwashed into thinking they support us in pension age,
      With deliberate media propaganda.
      The uk government nicked my back owed tax muddle, before I ever saw it.
      42 grand for state pension…
      That young sir is by no means the young supporting the pensioners.
      Stop listening to propaganda of the government MSM.

      Dan MaCaulay.

      It is all very well implying that everything is easy on line for pensioners,
      Try get you’re money back without anyone to talk to at the other end.
      There isn’t even a proper form to fill in explain what one revenue department eventually gave you back after years of wrangling. the other one nicked it,
      Then try ask themhow they worked it out and it does not make sense on the standard forms.

      This is one pensioner that is absolutely fed up of the pension scams coming from uk government to the elderly.

      I voted yes last time.
      And the austerity and pension steals from uk past and presently applied will certainly encourage me to vote a BIG independence YES the next time,
      Levelling up the country?
      The unionist shit in their own nests

    28. robbo says:

      James Che. says:
      4 February, 2022 at 1:13 pm

      James Che

      The so called pension is a ponzi scheme. The money does not exist.

      Bernard Maddox would be so proud if he ever pulled that one off. The money you pay in NI is just garbage it’s already been spent of other lines of credit/debit on paper.

      You’ve no gold either – Gordon Brown sold that years ago too.

      If you take just as the article says approx 900,000 Scottish pensioners that means around approx £9,000,000,000 that’s £9 bil would need to be sitting in a bank account somewhere under 10 downing street/UK treasury + add on another £80-90 billion for the rest of the UK. There is no bank sitting with 100 billion in notes just to pay out pensions- its debt/credit scam ponzi.

      Martin Lewis wrote about this years ago as have many others over the decades.

      https://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2009/03/is-the-state-pension-a-ponzi-scheme/

      I thought people would have remembered that auld fat git Robert Maxwell too from years ago who actually used/stole the dosh from a private pension scheme( which you’re only talking a few million of actual bucks that was sitting in a bank account. We know what he did wae that!

    29. James Che. says:

      The.corruption from politicians and councils have made life very difficult for the average person to live at peace in any sense of normality.

      Westminster and the devolved government have to go.
      A brand new government that belongs to the Scottish people must evolve.

    30. tridentitycrisis says:

      Brilliant. This is the sort of stuff that bumped up the YES vote last time… much more so than McDougall’s breath-farting.

    31. James Che. says:

      Robbo.

      We’re talking state pension in my case.

      They took my, and many others here, contributions from our wages towards state pensions.
      before we received our pay packets it was deducted, NOT VOLUNTARY.

      If as you suggest that the uk government stole our state pension under false pretensions, for most of us have it in writing.
      Perhaps we should gather together and all charge the uk government with grand theft,
      As we are not talking private pensions here.

      That would sort out our pensions for a private independent Scottish pension.

    32. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Good to see you back doing what you do best Stu.

      I do hope this mean you are coming out of retirement?

    33. callmedave says:

      Nice to have a new post, especially one reminding Scottish people that have contributed to a UK pension system will be entitled to receive their pension after independence.

      I remember the Chair of Scottish Affairs Committee Ian Davidson in Westminster in May 2014 getting this question clarified.
      See link.

      Hope I remember to do this correctly.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su47Cx3HiSI

      Thank you Stuart.
      Also great to see some of the older names still posting.

    34. robbo says:

      James Che. says:
      4 February, 2022 at 2:26 pm
      Robbo.

      Aye James a ken. That’s wit happens when yi work- you have nae option.

      As I said earlier Buffalo Bill fae Maryhill who never worked and never will gets a basic state ‘pension'(benefit) and never paid a penny NI in his/her nelly puff. Thems the breaks eh!

    35. James Che. says:

      The Rev has covered many issues on here, from snp missing money, gender and women’s rights, independence, the wee blue book of statistic and how the Barnett formula works.
      threats, and scare mongering,

      There has never been one politician with power at their fingertips to come even close to Stu in highlighting real issues to the Scottish people..

      And to day he has turned our attention to the ever on going scare mongering tactics being revived by not only the opposition, but by our own residing politicians in scotland.

      From every fault and inquiry he highlights over the years we can see why we need new politics, new politicians and a independent Scotland to run our own affairs.

      Now is the time.

    36. wullie says:

      Those who seek to undermine the people or our country who knowingly tell porkies about Scotland to cause distress to the advantage of another power should I believe be prosecuted. Im sure a law could be found lying around somewhere.

    37. steelewires says:

      Thanks for keeping your watch and keeping us informed!

    38. twathater says:

      @ Willie 4.25pm I totally agree with that Willie as a fatter of mact I am very sure there IS a name for someone like that and the laws he is breaking , the words tr**tor and tre**on spring to mind
      Unfortunately our heid yins and their bought and paid for judges and personal polis force are more concerned in the contents of people’s scanties and what sexual predilections our children might get up to , and BTW Dan I heard a rumour that the reason Shurely Shirley wants the doors cut down in size is NOT to allow more ventilation in the classroom it’s to enable interested parties within the clique to KEEK under the door to see what the kids are up too

      Doors cut down in school for ventilation EXPOSES the imbecillity of the MORONS with their arses parked in HR getting in excess of £65,000 a year , is Annie wells and her related

    39. Fionan says:

      About to get my pension in a few weeks time, this could and should have been encouraging. I have paid NI all my working life and have had credits during the times I was at home rearing the next generation, and during the time latterly when I have been unable to work for health reasons. So why do I just feel cynical and disbelieving that either the WM gov or the Scotgov will honour their obligations? or be in any way scared of the masses revolting? They have already sewn up the legal system and police/justiciary on that front.

      I see the one as bad as the other now, tory=snp. I have no faith or trust in either. And Alba are too far back on the racetrack, and weakened vote-wise by the insistence of the useless ISP to take non snp indy votes, (if they get any) to ever be in a position to help Scotland get indy. I feel a bit like the Scot in Dads Army ” we’re doomed, ah tell ye, doooooommed!!”

    40. Dan says:

      @ twathater

      Aye, we’ve got Building Control insisting on ever tighter technical regulations to ensure all oor buildings are as thermally efficient and draft free as possible to save burning extra energy and reduce carbon emissions, whilst also adhering to fire safety regulations which is important what with the likes of the Grenfell Towers tragedy an aw that.
      Meanwhile… Some totes roaster in the Scottish Government Administration of Devolved Powers thinks cutting bits aff of doors is a great idea…
      Fuck knows what strength of weed they’re smoking but they should maybe detox long enough to ask their dealer about the stealthy ventilation systems they use to grow said weed, or mull over jist what that humming noise is in the bathroom whilst they’re taking a shit…
      #FansNDuctsYaTwats

      Back on topic, TBH I reckon I’m close to the point I don’t give a flying fuck if I make it to pension age if it means prolonging co-existing in a world filled with such utter idiocy.

    41. Robert Hughes says:

      ” BTW Dan I heard a rumour that the reason Shurely Shirley wants the doors cut down in size is NOT to allow more ventilation in the classroom it’s to enable interested parties within the clique to KEEK under the door to see what the kids are up too ”

      Aye T . Presiding genius Shirley Nae Cunt’s Valentine strikes again with another stunning display of impenetrable dimness

      We await her suggestion that pensioners should cut their feet off to avoid getting frostbite, as they sit in homes they can’t afford to heat, with decreasing incredulity . Such is the bottomless depth of her/their cluelessness

    42. Effigy says:

      What a breath of Boris free fresh air to see the pathetic
      propaganda Westminster controlled media spews out.

      The Tories owe so much to lying, distortion and cover up.

      Never in modern history has Westminster had such a majority
      of MPs without an ounce of honesty or decency.

      They won Brexit with £350 million per week to the NHS and later admitted the figure didn’t exist.

      Brexit would win more freedoms? Oh no it doesn’t.
      It would bring down taxes. Oh no it didn’t.
      Food prices would be much lower? Not only shortages but dramatic increases.
      How about less red tape- don’t laugh if you are in a 4 mile queue in Dover.
      The better Human Rights is true! Well for the right wing Tories it’s better.
      No border in the Irish Sea or danger to the Good Friday Agreement anyone?

      And the English love Boris who promises their Empire back

    43. Republicofscotland says:

      Listened to FMQ’s yesterday on the car radio, Radio(shortbread) Scotland, only for the FMQs slot to suddenly cut-off and the radio host to begin reporting mediocre news.

      Today I found out that a unionist MSP told the chamber that the SNP MPs voted AGAINST proposals for a windfall tax in the Commons on Tuesday, even though some energy companies are making £27,000 pounds per minute off energy in Scotland.

      Sturgeon replied I’m not against oil and gas companies making a contribution because their profits are rising, but it should be fair and equitable.

      I’m lost for words with that reply.

    44. Republicofscotland says:

      Meanwhile its nice to see our FM has her priorities in order.

      “TWICE as many civil servants have been instructed by SNP ministers to work on legislation to reform gender recognition than the party’s flagship independence referendum bill.

      The general secretary of Alex Salmond’s Alba party has labelled the SNP’s priorities as “quite astounding” and has called on the First Minister to accelerate the push for independence.

      The Scottish Government is bringing forward legislation to reform gender recognition by the summer.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.heraldscotland.com%2Fpolitics%2F19897187.twice-many-civil-servants-working-gender-reform-plans-indyref2-bill%2F

    45. McDuff says:

      Another reminder of what you write Rev, the truth.
      Always good to have you back.

    46. Effigy says:

      Fascist Fanzine the Daily Mail are in overdrive demanding in multiple articles that Scottish
      Independence will stop payment of the pension we have contributed to for 50 years and more

      It seems the First Minister is a liar by stating the obvious that has already been agreed.

      Thank goodness the have good old bastion on virtue Boris to set us straight.

      How I long for a country that punishes deliberate misinformation and oversees front page apologies with the Truth of the matter made clear.

      I would have had doubts about the goal posts having been moved if wasn’t for the Rev’s post
      nailing these corrupt lying bastards that the English call parliament.

      No other source in the U.K. seems to be troubled to report the facts.

      Thank You!

    47. Captain Yossarian says:

      I remember before Boris was elected leader of the Conservative Part, Max Hastings, who used to be his boss, said that he was a liar and in no way fit to lead the country. Everyone else said that Boris was a winner and all the rest of it and so he was duly elected and the inevitable has happened.

      What is written above is a cogent argument, but why is it being made by WoS and not by Kate Forbes. There is a reason why the independence argument isn’t winning by a mile just now and I suspect it is because people are deeply uneasy about our leaders’ fitness to lead. I’m not just talking about one individual here, it applies equally to all at Holyrood.

    48. James Che. says:

      Daft question on legality.

      Why is it that London rules or laws apply to Scotland at all, never mind the rest of uk.

      As far as I understand London is registered as separate ( entity ) from the rest of the uk.

    49. Turriff Loon says:

      This is all somewhat of a moot point as I’m sure the position on pensions will be definitively clarified in the SNP detailed economic plan for an independent Scotland which we should expect any time now so that people have plenty time to analyse and digest it ahead of the referendum that is absolutely, definitely, 100% guaranteed to happen in 2023.

    50. Gfaetheblock says:

      Quite simple to administer, use of tax code would probably work.

    51. Dan says:

      @ James Che at 10.58am

      Think that’ll be the City of London Corporation you’re referring to.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Remembrancer

      Must be handy having folk in places to look out for the area’s best interests.
      I’m jist “blessed” with elected folk that don’t bother answering emails from many of their constituents about sorting out local matters as they’re too busy scheming and playing the shit throwing fest of Party Politics. They’re too busy trying to get one over their opponents rather than addressing and rectifying the ongoing concerns of their electorate.

      @ Captain Yossa

      Not seen you post in a while. Trust you’re keeping well.
      Dare say you couldn’t help but have noticed more “Quality Polis” style suggestions of school building modifications emanating from the SAoDP (Scottish Administration of Devolved Powers).

    52. Robert Hughes says:

      James

      You may be thinking of the * City of London * aka the Russian Money Laundry : which is a * City * within a city

      In reality the site of entrenched privilege and conduit for all manner of dark manoeuvres and Tax Haven tentacles

    53. Robert Hughes says:

      Never seen your reply before posting mine Dan .

      James you should check-out a film called ” The Spider’s Web * – I think it’s still available online .

      Be prepared to be shocked by it’s revelations .

      Or maybe you won’t be so shocked , given the protagonists involved

    54. Roastin says:

      Bizarre? You are saying that the people of Scotland will still be UK citizens *after* Scotland is an independent country? Will we still vote in Westminster elections?

    55. James Che. says:

      A city to be known as a city requires a royal charter or letters Patent from the crown.

      The city of London corporation, is not a London borough, A status reserved for the other 32 districts ( including London’s only other city of Westminster.
      There is also the city of London, within London.comprised of roughly a square mile with the Guildhall at its centre.

      The city (Westminster) was established as a Borough in 1965,
      it was previously known as Metropolitan Borough of Westminster… until 1965.
      the (Westminster city) is governed by Westminster city Council.

      London in statue Law is not mentioned as the Capital of UK, just England’s capital according to post Brexit from the EU.
      There is not now any government area, simply “London.”
      The only Area with that designation was the old European Parliament constituency.

      So in relation to ourselves, one has to ask if a Borough now Governs the treaty of the union?

      Quotes here are from Wikipedia and Quora questions.

      Robert Hughes.

      I will check the recommendation you gave, many thanks.

    56. Republicofscotland says:

      Well Nato must be fed up waiting on Russia to invade Ukraine, so Bloomberg published news that Russia HAD invaded Ukraine.

      https://nypost.com/2022/02/04/bloomberg-accidentally-reports-that-russia-invaded-ukraine/

      Luckily it didn’t lead to a change reaction in hostilities

    57. James Che. says:

      Two separate Cities within the circumference of London.

      One financial, and the other one which held the treaty of the union under the new parliament of Great Britain from 1707,

      In 1964 the parliament in and of Westminster became a Borough,, A Constituency. A city within a city.

      It entered into the EU for (trade originally) in the 70s as a constituency and Borough of Westminster

      It exited under Brexit as a constituency and a Borough of England.

      Has the penny dropped yet.

    58. Ebok says:

      “The UK is expected to have inflation running at about 3% (other estimates say 7%) at the end of 2022, the highest rate of the advanced economies, the OECD said.”

      Aye, right on. Tell that to those living at or near poverty levels.
      54% increase in energy costs.
      Huge increases in supermarket prices.
      Cost of fuel sky high.
      NI increases for anyone on or above £9.5k pa.
      Council tax hike coming soon.
      Attack on universal credit

      And what are our ‘leaders’ doing about it?

      Well, ALBA get the protest moving by appealing for a council tax freeze and asking scot-admin to consider their 5-point poverty plan.
      “Practical steps we can take now such as a Scottish Child Payment of £40 a week, introducing an annual £500 payment to assist low earnings households, extending free school meals to all”
      “But ultimately the only way Scotland can escape the cost of living crisis facing families is for Scotland to become independent and to set a better course for our country.”

      So, there we have the masterplan. As they have no power to activate plan ‘A’ above, that won’t be happening anytime soon, so we just sit back and wait for Indy, nothing more to be done for now.

      SNP, Lab, Libs, Cons, Greens, Unions, and others – rises nothing to do with them, just suck it up folks.

      Meanwhile, an old lady (83) in ENGLAND on radio has come out fighting and at least managed to produce a plan!
      Said she was going to use whatever energy she needed for cooking lighting and keeping warm. She would pay what she could afford and as they can’t cut power off, if energy companies wanted, they could send in the bailiffs as she had nothing of value.
      However, it was soon pointed out that the suppliers could lawfully force entry to her home and install PAYG meter. Aha, gotcha! It may be illegal to cut off power SUPPLY directly, but no worries shareholders, we have ways.

      No doubt there will be a lot of meters forcibly installed next winter – making the poorest in society pay a higher rate for energy of course. That’ll teach ‘em for being poor, eh?

      How much malnutrition or hypothermia will we witness in energy rich Scotland, one of the world’s wealthiest countries in natural resources before we take action?
      With no leaders in sight, looks like we need to find a few 83-year-olds of our own to spearhead a REAL campaign.

    59. Dan says:

      @ Ebok

      Energy price hikes won’t just effect individuals, but will also impact and put further pressure on businesses that either use a fair bit during whatever processes they do in their day to day activities, or just in the general heating of the premises to acceptable levels.

      Fortunately I was able to collect a ream of firewood from the recent storms so my heating is sorted for a good few years yet. I happened to be staying in another household recently for a few days and it was a real eyeopener on how they relied upon and used so much energy in comparison to my own minimal usage.

      People are already struggling, yet Glasgow City Council though it a great idea for their virtue signalling eco points collecting to do this.

      https://gettr.com/post/psice6130b

    60. Confused says:

      Ex Regio 20 GODS OWN COUNTRY 17 !!!!!!!!!!!!!

      Scotland only won because of the Barnett formula.

      If it weren’t for the largesse of English southern taxes, our rugby pitches would go unfunded.

      Wait – the postal tries have just come in … and final result Scotland 20 England 900245

      Interviews now on

      – what gave you the audacity to strive to beat a clearly superior team you should have lost to?

    61. Robert Hughes says:

      ” what gave you the audacity to strive to beat a clearly superior team you should have lost to? ”

      Princess Anne telling us if we lost she’d step down as our patron and nominate Andrew to replace her

      Aye C the best part of any English defeat is the ensuing * Post Mortem * : they are still baffled why after Agincourt , Waterloo ,WW1/2, Brexit, The Great British Bake Off other countries have the temerity to cuff them . Bally ingrates 🙂

    62. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @James Che (3.44) –

      I can’t remember if you were one of the original correspondents, but we had some illuminating discussions, right here, about ‘The Remembrancer’, years ago.

      London is, and always was, the centre of the universe for those with a particular interest i.e. accumulating power via the manipulation of cash, stocks etc.

      That perhaps helps to explain why the place probably has the highest concentration of sociopaths on the planet, even further condensed inside the Westminster ‘palaces’.

      🙂

    63. Clavie Cheil says:

      One thing is certain and that is that our so called Pensions are not safe under the English Tories or their lackeys. To the SNP Nicla sycophants – Fars oor Referendum ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s?

    64. North chiel says:

      “ confused says @0653 pm “ , actually , Rumour has it, that the “ postal tries “ were counted in Twickenham , overseen by Alistair Joke & Doug Gross .

    65. Grouser says:

      There is a report that SNP MPs did not vote in favour of the proposed Windfall Tax on energy companies. I checked my own MP’s voting record and could not find any indication that he voted in favour of the tax.
      Given that Shell made a profit of $19.29 billion last year, I think that the decision by the SNP not to support the tax needs some explanation.
      I intend to write to my SNP MP and ask him for an explanation as I can see no reason not to impose a Windfall tax.
      What we are getting instead is a loan from the UK government which we will have to repay over the coming years.
      I don’t want a loan. I want an Independent Scotland with a properly regulated energy sector where the government doesn’t hand billions of pounds to energy companies at the expense of the Scottish people. In the unfortunate meantime I want SNP MPs to stand up for the people of Scotland.

    66. Saffron Robe says:

      Mention of “The Remembrancer” is interesting because I remember reading somewhere that there is an office in the Scottish Parliament which performs the same function for the English crown.

    67. John Main says:

      More noise in the MSM this morning about the possibility of a WM pact between SNP and Labour for the next GE.

      This is a story that keeps resurfacing, so I am starting to wonder if it is going to happen.

      Truly a marriage made in heaven.

      Sir Keir will generously grant a Scots Indy referendum so that Oor Mammie can be seen to have delivered on her promises to the faithful.

      Oor Mammie will work behind the scenes to ensure that No wins, so that Labour don’t lose the Scottish MPs they need. Without Scottish seats, either directly or indirectly in coalition, Labour will never again be a credible force south of the border.

    68. James Che. says:

      Ian brotherhood.

      5 feb. 10 . 04.

      I do not remember having the conversation about the remembrancer.

      However Ian, you got me interested so I went and researched it.
      Fascinating old history.
      And to simplify for others.

      1). The city of London Corporation is the oldest city in London. And from its origins was the business section of London.

      2). The second is, Westminster City and was created in 1964, it is also a Borough and constituency, prior to this it was a metropolitan bourgh.

      This is where the Remembrancer comes in.

      The first old city ( business section) employed someone to keep an eye on what the other part of London was up to.

      And to ensure they would not pass legislation that would be detrimental to their businesses.
      They employed a man.
      We nowadays would call this a snitch…. A snitch with power
      He is not allowed all the way in on the parliament floor. ,and he is not allowed to interfere.
      but Honour among thieves being what it is,
      He is allowed to listen in and then tattle tale what is going on back to headquarters, and to whom employs him.

      He has a few other duties to make the role appealing and to seem Honerable, but basically he is on the payroll as a snitch.
      Lobbying is thus able to take place after the Remembrancer has reported what he heard Back to his employers and business section. The City of London Corporation.

      Over the years this is how the two Cities of London ensure each survives financially.

      So the business ( square mile ) want

    69. Stoker says:

      Regarding the article above. Yep! Stuart, the whole Yoonisphere has dug out, dusted down and ramped up the old scare stories. Especially around pensions, including this diatribe of lies and deceptions from a few days ago. https://archive.is/YdR1J

      Just as well Wingers have been taught how to obliterate such crud. But Jo-public is still as ignorant as it ever was. We need to get something like our own WOS version of ‘Trump Cards’ produced for circulating, preferably with you back at the helm and written in a way they cannot become dated. Printable in A5 format just perfect for letterboxes.

    70. Republicofscotland says:

      “More noise in the MSM this morning about the possibility of a WM pact between SNP and Labour for the next GE.”

      John Main.

      Could you please provide a link John so I can read it.

      Thanks in advance.

    71. Dan says:

      @ Grouser

      Archived report from the Daily Record a few days ago which gives a couple of the reasons SNP MPs didn’t vote for it.

      https://archive.fo/390el

      And here is a 2 minute vid explaining the 200 quid energy loan and repayments.

      https://twitter.com/paullewismoney/status/1489951173016801285

    72. James Che. says:

      So the business section….. was meant to be deleted as I was correcting grammar, oops.

    73. Republicofscotland says:

      Stoker @12.35pm.

      I suppose Scots who have paid into it all their lives as part of the UK, (when independence arrives) so they should be entitled to their pensions, ex-pats living abroad still get theirs so why not Scots.

      Incidentally I find it amusing that Brits leaving the UK to live abroad are referred to as ex-pats not emigrants as in everywhere else.

      For others here’s a wee bit of info on this guy.

      https://fromtone.com/who-is-the-the-remembrancer/

    74. James Che. says:

      The great British Parliament was created after signing the treaty of the union with the old metropolitan borough in London.
      It was not a city at that time period, and it is still not recognised by statue law as the Capital of Great Britain.

    75. James Che. says:

      RepublicofScotland.

      The information regarding the Remembrancer is misleading,
      As there is no overall city of London.

      There are two Cities within the boroughs of London.
      And as I mentioned above, it is not in statue Law.

    76. Robert Hughes says:

      John Main @ 12.13

      That scenario is looking more n more likely and would serve the purposes you refer to . Job done . Permanently .

      It is of course predicated on Labour being in power , something that up until recently was looking less likely , but fckn hopeless as they are , there’s a good chance things will get so bad in the Banana Monarchy risibly known as * Great * Britain they’ll be deemed the less worse option . If the electorate haven’t been rendered totally incapable of making even that grim choice by the assault on reason we’ve witnessed in the last two years .

      I wouldn’t bet on it

    77. John Main says:

      RepublicOfScotland

      Check out Peter Hitchens blog today.

      He mentions the synergy of an SNP-Labour pact, it’s not his main subject, but my point is, the idea does come up from various sources. I recall asking Andy Ellis about it maybes a month or so ago.

      Hitchens believes the orthodoxy that Yes will prevail at the next Referendum. My view is that he is not aware of the lack of urgency in HR while the SNP focus on the stuff that matters, gender, door planing, etc.

      Anyways, if you do check out the MoS site, don’t worry, I won’t tell, your dirty secret is safe with me.

    78. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Stoker 12.35: yes, it’s incredible that they’re employing the same old lies on pensions as last time, despite The Rev vaporising their drivel.

      A5 cards are a good idea but you can only lead a horse to water: what happens next is beyond our control. Before the referendum, local MP Jimmy Hood and his squad would be busy telling the douce burghers that they would be losing their pensions in the event of a Yes vote. We attempted to counter this by handing out photocopies of the official DWP statement on pensions which said that they were safe but a lot of the Old ‘Uns were only too willing to believe his mince.

      Jimmy is famous of course for saying in the Commons chamber that he would vote against Scottish independence even if it could be shown that Scotland would benefit from it.

      Sadly, what he was most interested in was his big Jag (and big WM pension too, no doubt).

    79. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @James Che –

      If memory serves, the Remembrancer has a seat, right behind the Speaker in the HoC. He can interrupt the Speaker at any time, to direct/alter procedures.

      The current Remembrancer is a dude called Paul Double.

      Interesting to compare the Wikipedia entry on ‘Remembrancer’ with an article about Double himself. If you read only the Wiki entry you would imagine the role is just a quaint and harmless anachronism. The fromtone article casts a very different light on it all.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrancer

      https://fromtone.com/who-is-the-the-remembrancer/

    80. Republicofscotland says:

      John Main @1.18pm.

      So its just the rambling of Hitchens, that makes you think the SNP and Labour will team up at the next GE.

      This from Hitchens.

      “Here’s a simple thing for you to ponder. Starmer has very little chance of getting a majority at the next Election. His only realistic route to No10 is by forming some sort of pact with Nicola Sturgeon of the SNP. She will demand a new referendum in return and Scotland could be gone from the Union within a couple of years.”

      John its common knowledge and the Rev’s covered it a zillion times (how you missed I don’t know) but Labour attaining power at Westminster has in decades at least, not required or even needed SNP MPs votes to swing it for Labour, Hitchens must surely know this as well, and he is just propagandising Starmer’s situation to turn voters away from the Red Tories at Westminster.

    81. robertknight says:

      Why on earth would Labour gift Indyref2 to the NuSNP in exchange for confidence/supply at Westminster?

      With the UK dissolved in the event of a Yes victory, Labour would be in perpetual opposition in the Parliament of the Kingdom of England & Northern Ireland.

      Can’t see them opting for that.

      More inclined to a Labour/Fib-Dem pact with SDLP input if needed.

      Besides, Labour isn’t anywhere near Woke enough for She/Her and the NuSNP only pretend to want Indy.

    82. Effigy says:

      The Rev has covered this nonsense about Labour and SNP forming a pact.
      If every single vote in Scotland was for Labour or SNP, we would still be ruled over by a large Tory Majority.

      Do your realise when people like Hitchen say giving Scotland a referendum would break the Union they actually saying that a Sovereign nation must not be given the opportunity to decide on their own future.

      How nice of him to deny us democracy in our own right.
      Even if polls showed 99% in favour of independence this country must be controlled by England.

      Why wouldn’t we break away from Westminster just like 66 nations before us.

      Too small? The richest 2 nations in Europe are Luxembourg and Norway.
      Iceland first to recover from the Casino Banking crash in 2008.
      Barbados breaking every single remaining link with their former masters in Westminster.

      The future is bright and the timing is right!

    83. Dan says:

      What’s Starmer’s views on shaving fire doors to let the reek in? Could be a totes showstopper for an Labour and SNP Westminster coalition.

      I surmise that if Labour peer and keen Prodigy fan, Baron Watson of Invergowrie had become Labour leader this probably wouldn’t be an issue…

    84. Grouser says:

      Thank you Dan for your links. I read the story in the Record but am still unconvinced that a windfall tax would seriously damage the energy sector. It is a profitable investment for them and they will not give it up. That is business. The UK government gets very little from them (unlike another more fortunate country whose government has control of the sector who get substantial sums from the sector.)
      I could not open the other link and am not on any social media platform so I can’t access it. However, I think the loan will be imposed on me whether I want it or not, and I will then have to repay it over a period of (I think) five years. I don’t want a loan; I have a horror of debt of any kind and I just don’t want it. I realise it could be a life saver for many others.
      However, I do not think loans are the answer; proper support for those in need is required. What is required is for the Tories to stop demonising, dehumanising and blaming the poor for their plight. They need to be given proper support; instead support is being given to Bankers. The Tories look after themselves and their friends. The rest of us as simply not human beings in their eyes.

    85. John Main says:

      Republic of Scotland

      If the story about the SNP and Labour getting together is just nonsense it will sink without trace.

      A bit like the story about Russia massing tanks, troops and blood transfusions on the border with Ukraine in readiness for an invasion.

      You have dismissed both stories. Fair enough. We are both guessing here.

      I will let you know if I hear or see anything more to suggest there could be some substance to either story.

    86. Dan says:

      @ Grouser

      I don’t have a twatter account but can still view the content.
      Sounds like you may be getting the pop up blocks when you open a twitter page. They seem to have implemented this with I guess a view that it will make force sign up though that won’t work for me.
      You should be able to get round the pop up blocks so you can view the content though. I happened to mention this matter on another thread this morning.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/a-voice-for-everyone/#comment-2684852

    87. Tackety Beets says:

      BM , what a clown.
      My “outlaws” born in Austria & East Germany both worked in Fyvie & Inverness area until 80s when the moved to W Germany for work. They later returned to ABZ

      I can assure you 100% They collected a full UK pension plus a German pension.
      TBH, the German pension may not have been the full portion, I honestly done know.

      Blair MaccyD stick it right up ye ya ba## ! You are a disgrace for a Scotsman?

    88. Merganser says:

      Stu,

      What do you make of Alex Massie’s article in The Times on Sunday

    89. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “What do you make of Alex Massie’s article in The Times on Sunday”

      Abominably lazy, completely factually inaccurate garbage. He’s been phoning in some real shite recently, which is always a disappointment.

    90. Dan says:

      Will tack this link on here as relevant to pension discussion.

      http://robinmcalpine.org/indy-life-doesnt-have-to-be-so-difficult/

    91. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Bizarre? You are saying that the people of Scotland will still be UK citizens *after* Scotland is an independent country? Will we still vote in Westminster elections?”

      Did you bother to read the article at ALL?

    92. Robert Louis says:

      Good to see revstu still on form.

      In all honesty, is the very fact that this nonsense issue over pensions is given so much airtime, not due to the inept handling of the issue by the SNP. Time and again, over the years, I have watched as SNP folk when interviewed just simply do not have the ability to nail this as the utter garbage it really is. Instead they offer complex arguments and claims, which most folk ignore. As the article states, according to unionists, UK pensions would be paid to folk living in every country around the world, all except Scotland. It is absurd. Why can’t the SNP just say that, and treat the whole question with the contempt it deserves?

      RevStu, the indy movement really needs your input more than ever. The pathetic peurile nonsense coming from Alyn Smith and his MI5 buddies in the SNP over Ukraine is a clear example. The SNP and many of its MPs and MSPs seem to have completely forgotten just why they were elected, or even why the SNP exists. Grandstanding (at great expense) with the union jack in the Ukraine, instead of getting us independence for Scotland. I mean seriously, WTF?? Independence, is just something they talk about in the run up to elections, and then it is quickly buried again.

      Scotland is getting right royally sh*fted by London, and the SNP Scottish government just whine and whine and whine, yet steadfastly refuse to do what they were elected for.

    93. Effigy says:

      Kurt Zoom’s cat incident has seen him hire Boris’ Downing Street advisors.
      Turns out he thought he was at a training session and they were using a new fury ball.
      He didn’t have his contact lenses in and he didn’t have car keys to check his eyes at Barnard Castle so he thought the kids were team mates.

      Leave him alone and he’ll get catshit done!

    94. Dan says:

      Further reading and thought on the subject of pensions which also considers using alternative methods to raise revenue for pension provision.

      https://commonweal.scot/who-should-pay-for-pensions/

    95. JLC says:

      There is in these comments a lot of misunderstanding and wishful thinking about how the state pension is funded.

      In a private pension, you pay into a pot and you have a contractual entitlement to the money. This principle does NOT apply to the state pension. Unlike a private pension, the state pension is not paid for out of a pot of built-up contributions. Rather, the state pension is paid for directly by taxation of workers. Put simply, each generation pays for the one before it.

      If we go independent, it will be incumbent upon current Scottish taxpayers to pay current Scottish state pensioners. We cannot realistically expect taxpayers in the rest of the UK to continue paying current Scottish pensions. Put simply, we can’t just remove 3 million odd tax-payers from the system and expect to keep receiving from it.

      References to pension promises on the current .gov.uk website are desperate and clutching at straws. These are written for the current non-independence scenario. The system breaks down if you remove 3 million contributors and the UK government promises are clearly made on the assumption that Scotland is not independent. If we go independent, we can no longer expect to receive the benefit of these promises.

      The truth of the situation is that no one really knows what would happen after independence. Yes, the UK government might be generous and agree for taxpayers from the rest of the UK to keep paying Scottish state pensions. I fear this is wishful thinking. More likely, it will be down to negotiation and if we do keep UK state pension entitlement it will come at a cost somewhere else. However, anyone at this stage promising a full UK state pension after independence is not telling the truth.

    96. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “In a private pension, you pay into a pot and you have a contractual entitlement to the money. This principle does NOT apply to the state pension. Unlike a private pension, the state pension is not paid for out of a pot of built-up contributions. Rather, the state pension is paid for directly by taxation of workers. Put simply, each generation pays for the one before it.”

      Oh for fuck’s sake, WE FUCKING KNOW.

      That there is no mystical “pot” does not affect the earned entitlement. Where the money comes from is the UK government’s problem.

    97. Calgacus says:

      I am so happy to see you back again Rev.Stu! Get intae them!

    98. RobQos says:

      So, so glad to see Wings back dispelling Unionist effluent. This is what this blog does best. It’s also what could bring the independence movement back together. I really hope this is the start of the blog helping promote independence again – and leaving behind the focus on the fractures that have done so much harm over the past few years.



    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.




    ↑ Top