Stuffing the ballots
At the weekend we made a half-joke about who’d be counting the votes in the SNP’s candidate elections to determine who’d be standing for Holyrood next year.
The joke just got a bit less funny.
That’s because we received an email from an alert reader about an internal SNP election last year. The reader had two friends who’d recently joined the party but hadn’t received any communication enabling them to take part in the online-only ballot, which was being conducted by a company called Mi-Voice.
While voting was still open the reader – we’ll call them Malcolm – got in touch with the party (in the shape of its governance officer Ian McCann) and Mi-Voice to see whether anything could be done, but received no reply until after voting had closed, when Ian McCann responded and put them in touch with Mi-Voice.
What happened then was disturbing. We’ve heavily redacted the emails below to prevent identification of any of the people concerned, particularly Malcolm and the Mi-Voice employee who was just doing what they were told and trying to be helpful.
Malcolm was then told that their two friends’ votes had been added to the ballot, nine hours after it had supposedly closed. The results of the election were published later the same evening.
Malcolm notes that these events raise all sorts of questions. He hadn’t been asked for their friends’ membership numbers, or for any sort of verification that they wanted to vote for who Malcolm said they did. Malcolm has no way of knowing if the votes really were added, or if he was just being fobbed off.
(The NEC was contacted with these concerns, but nothing came of it.)
But the fact that a senior SNP officer was happy to, at a minimum, give the impression that votes could be added after the ballot was closed, with no sort of security checks, is extremely disturbing.
Because plainly it suggests that SNP HQ could simply instruct Mi-Voice to add any numbers of votes for any candidate at any internal ballot – after voting was closed, SNP HQ knew how many votes each candidate had received, and whether their preferred candidates had triumphed – and Mi-Voice would comply, potentially altering the outcome.
In normal circumstances that might seem like paranoia. But given the vast amount of deeply sinister dodgy dealing that’s been going on in the NEC recently, and given that we have Ian McCann’s apparent open admission that votes could be added after the ballots closed, it doesn’t seem at all unreasonable or excessive to question the integrity of the entire process.
We’re not sure what safeguards could be implemented against this eventuality, except perhaps a categorical assurance from both the SNP and Mi-Voice (or whoever may be conducting the vote this time) that no post-deadline ballots will be accepted under any circumstances and that all votes will be cast directly from members to the balloting company with no sort of intervention from the SNP.
We hope those assurances will be forthcoming.
Are the SNP falsely presenting internal voting procedures as above board and circumspect when in fact they are not?
And by doing so are they gaining the trust of the membership?
And providing themselves with an opportunity to rig the vote to their own desires.
Under Scots Law – this is Fraud. And should be dealt with by the Police and not by the Electoral Commission.
“Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything.”
Joseph Stalin.
I’m glad that I live west of Edinburgh – at least the prevailing winds usually blow the stench coming from SNP HQ to the east.
‘the National Secretary takes the view that anyone who could have attended the meeting, but was unable to do so, should be able to vote’
Who was the National Secretary?
Is this official policy – open to all members? Where is it written, and if not, is it only available to those and such as those.
Joanna Cherry was not able to attend an important NEC meeting (at which they tried to de-select her), was she afforded the ability to cast a vote in her absence?
Thanks to Ian McCann, the ‘National Secretary’ has some very interesting legal questions to answer – the crime of Fraud, and active discrimination of employees, being 2 that spring to mind.
I wonder if Mr McCann is the type to fall on his sword to protect his boss.
And if not, was she discriminated against, because she is female, because she is gay, because of her political views (which has been established at court – the desire for Indy is akin to a religious belief).
I’m finding it difficult keeping up with the New SNP’s direction and machinations. Even if there is a plausible explanation for the above (!) they’ve left such a trail of destruction and subterfuge that the question is begged: who can ever find trust for anything they present us, past, present or future?
As I am increasingly urging online: you must ask questions, if not, you’re holding back Scotland’s independence.
‘and if not..’ should be read just under the paragraph that starts ‘Joanna Cherry..’
We need to see the votes. Names can be redacted.
Ever since Spears came from behind and took the WC post from Collette Walker at stage 5 with no real explanation as to how this happened, I have been very suspicious about the counting process.
The other concerns raised were when Ian McCann, again, counting the secret ballot from Sparkle Monkey, or whatever it’s called, stated that sitting MPs were to all intents were barred from standing for Holyrood, requires investigation.
BTW who the hell is Ian McCann? He’s been in post forever.
Daisy is right, this is simply fraudulent and illegal, someone needs to take the SNP hierarchy to the Court of Session about this, this will not stand. Not in the Ian Blackford sense of “this will not stand”, but in the rigged-vote-result-over-turned sense.
So is this how Rhiannon Spear miraculously won the Women’s Officer vote at the final round of vote transfer at last year’s conference, despite her main opponent being in front at every single round up until then?
Finding it hard to understand why no well-kent face with inside knowledge has yet broken cover to spill what they know about all this shitery.
Whoever did it would become a hero (for many of us anyway) and save everyone else an awful lot of time/money-wasting hassle.
Rev Stuart Campbell ,
It is My-Voice who are running the ballots again this year for the elections for the Nec and other committee elections
This doesn’t seem right if the voting system can be altered after ballots have closed .
So is it a case that Ian McCann and Peter Murrell can alter the votes to make sure that certain candidates win these positions on the committees .
I think this is a case where the branches have to ask questions about this system but I don’t expect they would get any answers from either Angus Mcleod or Kirsten Oswald .
Always prepared to give a degree of benefit of doubt, my first comment now irks me having read the article a second time. It reads worse second time round.
Malcolm was then told that their two friends’ votes had been added to the ballot, nine hours after it had supposedly closed.
When I was a member, internal voting for PPC’s had no apparent checks or balances. We had three candidates here and the final vote numbers in the constituency were never released – we were only told who the winner was.
I found it odd at the time, but I’m now seeing a bigger picture. Imagine going into William Hill and betting on a horse, only to be told the next day that your horse lost, but you’re not permitted to see the actual race!
Life outside of the bubble means that the blinkers remain off and you can then treat all parties with the same skepticism. It’s not for the faint of heart!
This is totally unacceptable. It is right up there with voter fraud and gerrymandering of votes.
I await the SNP HQ asuring all, that this is wrong, and that there is no way, they can ‘fiddle’ the ballots.
Time will tell. It just goes from bad to worse.
The answer to all this isn’t to leave. The answer is to join.
Take a leaf outta Momentum’s book.
Ian McCann – the one who either doesn’t answer about the indy fund or when he is pressed says,
“The money is in a ring fenced fund for the next referendum but as you know Boris Johnson is refusing to grant a section 30 order…” . When you point out to him that you’d rather the money rested in your own account than theirs you are ignored. Then in March when the SNP say that covid “dictates” that there will be no ref this parliamentary term you request your donation back to give to a food bank (lets face it they won’t be needing it) – what does he do? Ian ignores you.
I guess their priority might be paying lawyers to keep Murrell out of the chokey rather than feeding hungry kids eh…
LeggyPeggy says:
26 October, 2020 at 2:13 pm
”
I think this is a case where the branches have to ask questions about this system but I don’t expect they would get any answers from either Angus Mcleod…”
A conference or two back Gerry Fisher asked about the verification and veracity of such ballots and was very rudely fobbed off with huffing and puffing from Angus McLeod (as much as I can remember his words) – “I’m not even going to go there and entertain such nonsense that the results don’t refelct the votes cast…”
Sounds a bit like the television voting on talent shows which still accepted calls after the deadline.
“The answer to all this isn’t to leave. The answer is to join.”
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2020/10/24/why-are-you-not-a-member/
The hustings for Dumbarton were very badly organised. Despite having registered beforehand I was unablt to join the Zoom meeting for over 20 minutes because there was a 100 person limit! I contacted the hustings email address – no reply and have since contacted the national secretary to express my annoyance at (a) missing the statements of the first 3 candidates and (b) not having had the courtesy of a reply or even acknowledgment. This is par for the course when contacting the SNP as indeed it is when contacting the NTS (another of my bugbears). The attitude seems to be, “You’ve paid your subscription, now go away and don’t bother us again you unimportant person”.
I spoke with my boy and his mates the other day – all, bar one, previously voted Yes and SNP.
In May, none of them are voting……….bar one.
Just read the Ian Lawson link at 3.01.
I’m not a member but this is a friendly suggestion to those who are – take back your party, physically at any rate, by peaceful occupation of branch offices.
Not as easy to ignore as your ‘vote’.
Very worrying if there are no checks, ripe for rigging. I guess we’ll know when the candidates are chosen. And in that case whether to vote SNP or not.
Quite frankly there can be no trust whatsoever in the voting to deliver candidates for 2021.
I already know of three individuals in my own small circle who have not received electronic voting papers because they have been dropped from the communications list – electronically and in the alternative from snail mail.
And when checked out from time to time after folks realise they have dropped out, the reason is passed off as being due to the database having been amended to reflect ‘ does not want to receive email ‘ or ‘ not deliverable at postal address ‘
But it could, and more than probably is more sinister than even that. With everything held electronically, who is to say that further tampering doesn’t go on. With everything else that is emerging what confidence can anyone have in the party systems. They can’t because as exposure after exposure shows, the system is rotten to the core.
New Labour was Sleepy Valley by comparison to what is happening in the New SNP.
I for one will, unless shown proof positive, not be accepting the results.
“The answer to all this isn’t to leave. The answer is to join.
Take a leaf outta Momentum’s book.”
Not sure what happened there. It was like my fingers were possessed by some well-meaning but incredibly thick demon… I leaned back in horror, tried to pull myself away from the computer, but all I could do was watch in horror and read what the demon was typing.
Look, whatever you do, don’t join. Don’t give them a penny. Let them pay for the lawyers themselves.
Apologies to everyone concerned. I’m okay now.
Joe Stalin is not dead
Mi-Voice is a subsidiary Mitel which was bought over by Searchlight Capital, which has offices in London, New York and Toronto.
Of course if Sturgeon asks them to stuff the ballot boxes in favour of her odious candidates so they can win, will anyone really be that surprised especially now the Rev’s pulled the curtain back, with a little help from his sources for all to see what’s actually happening in the SNP.
You know the media says that the SNP will achieve a landslide at next years elections, however I’m not that sure they will, as more and more folk begin to realise that they’re not the party that we thought they were.
Would be good if the Rev Stu might turn his forensic eye to the four separate business units that now comprise soon to be privatised Scottish Water..
With the Scottish Water board bow comprised of corporate bankers like Dame Susan Rice ex head of LloydsTSB and ex executives from oil and gas companies, one can see how Tsar Nicola has appointed Scottish Water chiefs.
Goodness our Water provider even has an international business unit.
So, all set for the UK Internal Market Bill to kick in, our water and sewerage looks set to go the way of our power and utility companies and into the hands of the wealthy and hidden offshore oligarch holding companies.
And all under an SNP Government making provision for it to happen. And does anyone think that ultimately the NHS will be any different.
https://www.scottishwater.co.uk/about-us/who-we-are/board-members
I think the only way you could trust this very black box process is to publish the tabulated results by membership no, so that people could check their vote against that recorded.
Then all members are asked to check the ballot before results are confirmed.
Cumbersome for the beleaguered HQ, but what price can you put on trust?
You know I have a wee chuckle to myself when I read peoples comments saying there’s lots of good people within the SNP, I think to myself well, where the hell are they now with all this shit going on, why aren’t they breaking ranks and attempting to do something.
Or are they hunkered down behind their desks faces pressed into spreadsheet, trying not to draw attention to the bleedin obvious, or are they in the toilets in wee groups discussing the demise of the party, but hoping no one with any clout hears them.
In this day and age I’d imagine that they’re staying stum what with high unemployment due to Covid, mortgages and bills to pay, and families to look out for.
The SNP will continue to nosedive, I don’t know maybe the inquiry will oust Sturgeon and Murrell I certainly hope so. If not you can kiss independence goodbye. As for the “party of Independence” the SNP that can worms is still to be opened from the inside, the question is when that will happen.
Stuart what are the three biggest concerns about the SNP just now?
@ Willie
With all the recent rain I was minded to think of about whether Scotland exports any of its water to England.
A search turned up various pre-Indyref articles saying it wouldn’t be viable and it’d be too expensive to do such a thing.
https://www.robedwards.com/2012/03/selling-water-to-england-is-a-pipe-dream-say-experts.html
Others obviously asked the question.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/is_scottish_water_going_to_engla
Then there’s this from last year…
https://web.archive.org/web/20200529200246/https://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/scottish-water-answer-england-tipped-run-dry-25-years-549445
Good grief – this si appalling
The National, a dreary publication with an obvious agenda and a mainly loyal and sycophantic readership of Sturgeonites (I’ll cite the Letters-Page as evidence), ought to be regularly and relentlessly bombarded with emails pointing to the genuine disquiet and mistrust that exists within the Yes movement regarding the current leadership of the SNP.
Newsquest is a profit-lead organisation and far from immune to concerted, digital carpet-bombing. Who knows—we might even force an honest debate.
Republic of Scotland – and the alternative to the SNP is ?
“Alec Lomax says:
26 October, 2020 at 4:45 pm
Republic of Scotland – and the alternative to the SNP is ?”
Alec.
If you’re speaking in context with regards to independence, then the present leadership appears to not want independence, if they can be removed fair enough then the SNP are the party of independence, if not then what.
Do we just continue to vote for a party that has multiple agendas none of which include the reason why we voted them into power in the first place namely that of obtaining independence.
I’m mean Alec how many more years are you prepared to wait for the SNP to come around to push for independence, five, ten, twenty? If at all, and more importantly we don’t have time on our side anymore.
If needs be we must consider voting for one of the other independence minded parties, but as I stressed time is short.
I thought Stu had pointed out much of the SNP’s income now comes from the UK state, such as Short Money?
The SNP membership renewal letter states being sent to people says:
“In these uncertain times, we need your support more than ever. 95 per cent of our total income coming from voluntary contributions like yours”.
The letter is signed Keith Brown, Deputy Leader.
‘If you don’t know where you’re going any road will get you there’.
I can only speak for my own area but there are very good people still in the SNP and are working for change. If the chosen one by some fluke or ballot stuffing was to secure the nomination the party will certainly lose members and possibly the seat neither of which does anyone any good. I still hope sanity will prevail and we select a reasonable candidate from a short list of two that could take up where Mike Russel left off. The next few months with the conference in cyberspace and the end of the selection process will give us some idea where we are. As things stand I have to go SNP1 and ISP 2.
The National appears to be exclusively blocking public access to the public comments over this piece:
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18821163.stephen-paton-trans-woman-standing-snp-huge-victory/
“The National appears to be exclusively blocking public access to the public comments over this piece”
I don’t blame them, Gregor, have you read it?
It’s quite a read.
From The (Trans)National article posted by Gregor:
uberty blockers, a safe and reversible means of delaying puberty
So dosing children with hormones is safe and reversible? Stephen Paton should at least be ashamed or better still in jail for coming out with dangerous crap like that.
@ Colin at 5.06pm
Yeah, pointed that out a month or so back but nobody picked up on it then.
Mind you, in this day and age who would believe anything they punt out.
I had a recent email stating they were all about listening to and representing the local electorate… Not sure how they’d manage that when they never listen or even respond when you actually contact them… 🙁
Dan
Well done for pointing it out previously.
You probably have seen this too but it’s topical to this thread:
“An SNP activist who is suing the party over new rules which make it harder for MPs to stand for Holyrood is standing to become a top party official”.
See full story here:
https://archive.is/WuYIY
Who will count the votes for that contest, I wonder?
@ Josef 4.42pm and Gregor 5.14pm your proposal Josef would be worthwhile if the national comments wasn’t overloaded with NS apologists ,there are some opposition posters but one who sticks out is Maria Carnero who is daily rounded upon and subjected to denigration and accusations of troll,yoonionist,and other names, and that is from our own side, but still her, Lorna Campbell and others TRY HARD to get through to the deniers of truth
I have tried many times myself but have been unable to, because the site either freezes or it won’t accept my login details
And Gregor it is very strange that there are NO COMMENTS allowed on the wokeist piece , it reminds me of some other MSM organisation who refuse to allow comments on certain SKEWED pieces, let me think could that be the Biased Broadcasting Corporation or bbc pravda for short
It’s almost as if they don’t want the TRUTH to be highlighted and exposed, the general public may not like what’s coming down the pipeline
@Hatuey
Yup, I’ve read it. I found this deluded statement particularly offensive:
“The debate is gamed in such a way that there is no situation at all in which trans people will be accepted. That’s ultimately the goal.”
“And the alternative to the SNP is”_____honesty perhaps.
Roger Mullin blog from yesterday.
https://www.independentview.org/post/grassroots-in-action
Can’t help but think such an action plan should have been instigated some time ago after the influx of new members.
How many of those new recruits once eager to help have now faded away from being ignored for so long.
I am speaking with a member from Dumbarton who has not received her ballot paper, she phoned HQ and got nowhere, no answer etc. Another member with the same problem gave her a phone number of the company which is based in England.
Her remark was priceless she said “So the SNP have given my membership details and those of my branch to a private company based in England but the same information has been blocked to the Branches and Constituency Association Office bearers in Dumbarton itself, cutting them off from their own members“
This is just farcical. Heads must surely roll!
@Gregor , @Hatuey, @Stuart Mackay and others
Ref The National article not allowing comments.
It WAS allowing comments at first this morning. When I saw it there were 20 comments, and most were well against much of what the writer had said.
Those comments were thumbs upped by quite a few readers.
I actually got some screen shots. If I’d known the comments were going to be deleted, I’d have copied the lot.
Re Iain Lawson’s comments I would add that there are quite a few folks now who have NOT received ballots.
The candidate selection is a sham. The ballot is compromised. And the fact that the SNP hierarchy is giving member data to a private company in England is truly concerning.
But then again Chris Jones the data guru in SNP HQ apparently used to work with Cambridge Analytica.
And with names, addresses, dates of birth, home phone numbers, mobile phone numbers, email addresses and much more held on the SNP data bases, who else might the party have handed data to.
Do you trust the SNP. I certainly don’t!
Sounds to me as if there’s an issue with GDPR compliance as well
Willie @ 6:38
Well, look on the bright side Willie… keeps a few more in a job at GCHQ. :O
Joseph O’Luain@4.40
I notice said newspaper has an article suggesting that a certain candidate, part of the all-women candidate list, winning in the Stirling election would be a good thing.
Isn’t that bias? Could the article possibly influence voters to opt for that person?
Hmmm!
@red sunset
I concur with your observations, the piece was definitely open for public comment this morning and contained various public responses.
It strongly appears that The National is only open for public comment when it suits itself re. ‘The Guardian Model’: Good luck with that…
If the SNP think that they can parachute NEC-friendly woke candidates into constituency seats without up-to-then pro-Indie SNP voters voting tactically against those candidates, regardless of which party that tactical vote might benefit, then they might well have seriously miscalculated.
@ Willie
“New Labour was Sleepy Valley by comparison to what is happening in the New SNP.”
In some London constituencies (esp. Vauxhall where I live), New Labour is still very much alive.
Obsessed with getting rid of the borough’s pain-in-the-arse poor people but (ironically) well into the cess-pit that is ‘Diversity’.
With Lambeth council as their ‘front’, New Labour is deep in the pockets of developers & big business, and, yes, still up to all the internal vote-rigging fuckery etc we expect of them.
From personal dealings with them, the Co-operative Party is no better, as far as I can see, either.
The british state security services for years waged psychological warfare in the north of Ireland and in other places where they had interests to control.
Infiltration, intimidation, influencing, elections and policies of governments and the internal party policies of opponents, bribery, blackmail, coercion and threats are the weapons of choice.
Turning one time allies and colleagues against each other, showing seeds of division within organisations, supported by their compliant media, proves more successful than honest opposition.
This has all the hallmarks of the British state. For years they influenced and infiltrated the republican movement in ireland causing open warfare among republicans.
The same tactics are used here where they have infiltrated the highest levels of the SNP, who, have in turn made sure local democracy has been stifled so their anti independence agenda can succeed.
And succeed it has. So far…..
Independence put on the back burner for years, despite several mandates, nature denying policies, the lies and set up of our greatest modern day leader, ….
And…… some still think that the british secret service influence within the biggest threat to the very existence of the british state is ‘ conspiracy theory’ to be dismissed.
Make No mistake, the enemies of Scottish Independence are hard at work in the SNP SG.
Wonder if Mi-voice could get the contract for a referendum 2 .
@Mike d says:
26 October, 2020 at 7:03 pm
Wonder if Mi-voice could get the contract for a referendum 2 .
Nice one
More worrying for me if and when we get independence, will SNP adopt all tricks they have learned in Westminster and holding YES ers in limbo to manipulate Scotland to remain in power.
Seems a reasonable assertion, not a good one.
I naively thought SNP might be the good guys. I know some are but enough of them?
Time will tell, but this report Stu does not fill me with confidence or trust.
@Dan re Roger Mullin and SNP activists.
Tommy Shepherd said that when he put himself forward for depute. He wanted to organise activisys into groups in different areas, leaders of which might be paid.
It was a great idea & I voted for him for that reason.
Then Angus Robertson at the last minute said he would do the same. AR had the backing of NS and her chums.
AR won at the first round with over 50% of the vote.
At the time I was still a Nicola fan but a couple of people I know at the time, doubted the result because Tommy had been well received at every hustings.
Needless to say once AR was voted in, we never heard another word about organising at local level
I think all the people who think it would be better to reform the SNP from within rather than throw their weight behind a new party should be thinking really hard about how implausible that is. The SNP are institutionally unreformable, and will never be the answer again
Livionian.
The SNP is corrupt to its core and has been for years, those looking through rose tinted glasses at the SNP are in for one almighty shock.
http://sourcenews.scot/robin-mcalpine-the-foundations-of-scotlands-democracy-have-crumbled-and-you-should-worry/
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2020/10/26/what-a-tangled-weave/
I think you are fretting about nothing. This looks like the voting for the branch officers at the AGM. You don’t actually say what the vote was for. Election of office bearers takes place at every AGM. Never heard of Mi voice before. At our branch AGM recently we just had a show of hands on Zoom. In most branches they struggle to get people to assume office. It is unusual to even have challengers.
For those who don’t know Andrew Wilson… he is just a gofer/ego massager for the bankers and is not a serious economistby a long chalk.
He was turfed out by his constituents many years ago and like a bad penny keeps on turning up.
If you are looking for a Britisher on the inside track with the SNP hierarchy then I would have a tenner on him…
As I’ve suggested, the NEC has turned the SNP into a club for parochially minded authoritarians, who have scant regard to the rule of-law. Which means the party has actually become an enemy of democracy, so is unable to respect universal principles governing “Society, law, morality and bioethics: A systemic point of view”. This means they are ideologically incapable of defending Scotland from expansionist, authoritarian, and xenophobic English nationalism.
Something needs done pronto, or Scots will never enjoy the benefits of democracy.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352552519300507
Playing fast and loose with the democratic process is par for the course when you are dealing with fascists. This is now an accurate description of the NEC, who have simply turned their backs on “Society’s Choices: Social and Ethical Decision Making in Biomedicine”.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK231968/
auld highlander says:
26 October, 2020 at 1:51 pm
“Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything.”
Joseph Stalin.
Why do I get the feeling that might apply in Trump’s America?
@ Ian McCubbin at 7.19pm
Aspects of the actual transition to independence is an interesting point and worthy of further discussion.
I recall attending a talk with John Drummond re. A Constitution for Scotland, and how exactly it would be decided upon and implemented.
The nitty gritty logistical aspects of consent being given by the people to a particular constitution, and trusting those we elect to actually then implement it once in power and not amend it to suit and protect their own ends rather than those of the people.
Bit of a chicken and egg situation.
Seeing all that we see now play out, it does indeed require careful consideration.
@ Liz at 7:19 pm
That’s not unexpected when you see the clique at the top so hellbent on centralizing and controlling every aspect.
Mr Sheppard’s plan would have ceded far too much influence and control to the lower echelons of the party.
There were no doubt a flurry of Whatsapp group messages flying around to head Tommy off at the pass!
@ Achnababan at 7:46 pm
Hmm…
https://caltonjock.com/2019/04/30/the-john-smith-trust-centre-masters-of-propaganda-delivering-the-westminster-unionist-agenda-and-gethins-turns-up-again/
I’ve been wondering about this even before reading this article, Michelle Thomson is a candidate in my area. She seems to have been well received locally. She is able, and has clearly got plenty of drive and energy. She is, in my opinion, the best of our candidates here in Falkirk East and would make an excellent MSP. I wonder how welcome she would be at Holyrood.
-Lothianlad-
We know that the British government has in the past interfered in the electoral system of Iran and Russia, and fairly recently I recall some SAS members mysteriously died in Egypt or Qatar. Further back, Britain exerted clout to protect Pinochet and apartheid and fought long wars against nationalists in Kenya and Malayasia. Britain is happy to get up to all sorts of shady stuff when it suits them.
Yet we are asked to believe that, faced with the actual secession of a part of their own country, with which many will have ties, and which has a vast portion of Britain’s most precious natural resources, they will suddenly become Girl Guides? The same folk who refuse to feed hungry kids for the, in the grand scheme of things, trivial sum of £100 million?
And yet if you asked NS about this at her daily Service of Thanksgiving- sorry, press conference- she’d sneer and call you a “conspiracy theorist”.
Hmmmm..
@ A person.
You are 100% correct!!!
The SNP has been infiltrated by the British security services, however, it would appear that some SNP politicians past and present actively pass on information to them, to the detriment of Scotland and independence.
https://campbellmartin.blogspot.com/2020/09/british-spies-in-snp.html?m=1
At a risk of repeating myself. The very same people who now run the party were involved in counting the NEC votes at conference in the late 80’s. Amazingly enough, people with little talent and no appetite for hard work, nor even great desire for independence, magically appeared at the top of the various lists. It was as if by being involved in the counting of votes, that their cabal somehow gained an advantage.
Such people are now old hands at the gerrymandering of voting procedures, thus the current voting fiascoes are not a surprise. The problem for the membership of the SNP, is that removing the people who control the game will now be virtually impossible, such is the stranglehold they have over the party.
If you are a promising politician, ethical, popular, dignified etc.. the British state security services will identify that politician as either a threat or an asset.
If it’s a threat, they will try to stifle that threat and ‘ turn’ the politician by blackmail, bribery etc..
If the politician cant be turned, they will set out to discredited and neutralise that politician.
If the politician is ‘ turned’ it becomes an asset. An influential asset that can do the states bidding.
Often this is the result of surveillance, and entrapment. Sexual indiscretions, financial misconduct etc.. some thing that can discredit the said politician.
Add to that, the seemingly safe and secure promises of ,” your secret is safe with us”, provided you do as we say,..and here is a luxurious lifestyle for your compliance, then the secret service have done their job.
Often the politicians that are so principled ie.. for independence, they are harder to turn, so they go after them by turning former colleagues against them, often lieing and conspiring against the principled politician in such a way that it can send them to jail.
Still think it doesnt happen in the SNP???
-Republicofscotland-
I would Say that the trans rights people may be a separate issue. They are fanatics, many often quite obviously mentally disturbed, and appear actually to believe that stuff. So the trans thing may
be unrelated to the gradualist ethos, or perhaps the gradualist have latched onto the trans infiltration to use it to stall progress towards Indy, place other gradualist in positions of power, and root out people who strongly support independence but refuse to accept this gender insanity.
Infiltrated by the secret service and a group of pardophile-run lunatics- talk about the devil and the deep blue sea!
On the other hand, it’s entirely possible, even likely, that this whole thing was concocted without any input from Westminster. I’ve said before on here that NS has all the hallmarks of an egomaniac, power corrupts, some folk don’t need MI5 pressure to do wrong!
There are postal ballots close November 6th. What happens to them some staffer will enter them in to Mi Voice. They have to because STV is so tricky.
Last conference I asked about who enters the paper ballots and was told volunteers I was a bit worried and went and asked the next day and was told a different story that WE ie a staffer and Murrell enter the ballots. No oversight at all and the easiest way to fix the vote just a lot of postal votes for your favorite candidate
For anyone UNCONVINCED that the SNP SG are not playing silly buggers this is the latest info from Martin Keatings which PROVES the opposite
http://r.mail.crowdjustice.co.uk/mk/mr/5MJ6GMbfdbVLJGaBcHj02yTB9ZSkvJVf5FtzbSP5xS5P8My6HBItgXvkYCzcwW_tfc_9U66jugzOgCuyrMq4f6freexV9hUO_CnObone1zRSsT9SCqr7oQ
A Person says:
26 October, 2020 at 8:54 pm
…Infiltrated by the secret service and a group of pardophile-run lunatics- talk about the devil and the deep blue sea!
Don’t forget the third toxic ingredient, personal ineptitude, – something which Sturgeon and her SNP hierarchy seem to have in abundance.
In fact, applying the principle of Occam’s razor, such a healthy degree strategic ineptitude might be the root cause of the problem, – a fundamental naivety and lack of acumen which all the other bolt-on components have been able to exploit.
Who needs outside interference from MI5 when you’ve such a talentless pool of self-serving gobshites wrecking the chances of Scottish Independence all by themselves?
It’s apparent that due to dubious voting practices, the SNP will shortly, if not already, be lost to a group of zealots who insist that if you paint black stripes onto a white horse you’ve got yourself a real, live zebra – and nobody has any right to claim otherwise.
-Breeks-
Incompetent people often resent those who are better at their job than they are. I find with people that are both incompetent and malicious, that they never seem to be incompetent about their malice! They can put folk loaded with the killer virus into the worst possible place for such people to be (care homes), but when it comes to burning children’s authors at the stake for being “terms”, or sending one’s predecessor to jail for the rest of his days for a crime he didn’t commit, suddenly they regain focus!
-Breeks (cont.)-
I think you are probably right though. Word reaches my ears that when NS was a lawyer she was the laughing stock of her firm she was that rubbish. Also, the inept lack confidence in their own judgement so are prone to be susceptible to characters with an agenda.
@Willie, 3.57
I’d like to second your request that this issue needs a spotlight shone on it.
From the 2006 paper “Scottish Water: The drift to privatisation and how democratisation could improve efficiency and lower costs” https://dspace.stir.ac.uk/bitstream/1893/21776/1/Waterreportfinal.pdf
“the Scottish Water industry has seen set up in a governance context and regulatory framework, which inevitably tends towards privatisation”
Not only has no action been taken to reform the framework, it looks as if the Scottish Government is working towards privatisation.
@ Dan 6.08pm Dan posts,Roger Mullin blog from yesterday.
https://www.independentview.org/post/grassroots-in-action
Can’t help but think such an action plan should have been instigated some time ago after the influx of new members.
Let’s be honest Dan in retrospect when we think of the work NS and party have done to highlight and WIN over undecideds and NO voters the answer comes back as nil,nada,zilch,nothing, ANYTHING that has been done is by the activists the likes of zarkwan, yourself and others. The hierarchy have convinced no one of the benefits of independence, and that is where WE HAVE FAILED, we believed NS and trusted her to do her part and again she has failed Scotland and her people
Lothianlad @ 8:52.
There will undoubtedly be British Intelligence operatives at work within the SNP, but to believe that all the SNP internal ills stem from M15 is horrendously naive.
The party is riddled with grifters who have found a rich seam to mine, and all you have to do is control the branches and gather the dirt to keep folk in line.
As one SNP councillor noted – over a 5 year term they were due a significant figure, what with salary, committee fees, expenses and the obligatory gig as a researcher for the MP or MSP. That’s THEIR money. What would YOU do to someone who wanted to take a hundred grand from you?
At the root of all these shenanigans are the oldest reasons in the book – money and power.
Ian Brotherhood @ 9.59 am
Ian , I saw your previous post with the reminder about the committee tomorrow and I wasn’t ignoring you earlier but I got caught up with family matters today and was waiting to post all the updates about it tonight so they don’t get missed when there’s so many btl comments being posted ,
Harassment and Complaints Committee ,
The Committee will next meet on 27 October at 10:15am, when it will take evidence from Judith MacKinnon, Head of People Advice, Scottish Government; and then from Barbara Allison, Director for Communications, Ministerial Support & Facilities, Scottish Government.
Public papers for the meeting tomorrow ,
https://www.parliament.scot/HarassmentComplaintsCommittee/20201027CommitteePublicPapers.pdf
I also saw earlier that someone had posted a link to Gordon Dangerfield’s blog ( apologies that I’ve forgotten who posted it ) ,
https://gordondangerfield.com/2020/10/25/what-did-the-first-minister-know-and-when-did-she-know-it/
And his blog refers to these papers which have been published by the committee ,
Open record from Judicial Review Proceedings ,
https://www.parliament.scot/HarassmentComplaintsCommittee/General%20documents/JR_-_Open_Record_-_as_redacted_23rd_October_2020.pdf
Scott @ 8:09pm, here in the USA, the counting of votes is very decentralized. I voted yesterday (we have in-person early voting here, which I think is great). My ballot will be counted by county elections staff on election day and the results will be certified by the county board. That will, largely, settle the local races (county boards, judgeships and state legislature races that are within one county).
The other results (President, Governor, US Senate, etc) will be transmitted to the state board to be tallied with results from other counties. The state board will certify them unless there is an appeal from a campaign and, even then, the count will only focus on the area of dispute. For instance, one county had a power failure at a polling place a couple of years ago and votes were hand-counted. The problem was that they hand-counted some votes twice. It was easily sorted.
Because state and county boards of election are appointed at state or local level, the influence that a presidential candidate has is minimized. There are just too many people in the system. Polling workers are required to put in a lot of hours. It is a job only for those who are prepared to really work – long days and tough working conditions. There are three election judges at each polling place and, even in the most lopsided precincts, more than one party must be represented.
If matters cannot be resolved at the state or county board of elections, there is recourse to the state and federal courts. Is the system perfect? No. People are human and some humans are bad people. However, the act of voting and of counting the votes is carried out in public. Disputes are settled in public. Many times those disputes are settled along partisan lines. However, because we have so many elected positions here (including judges) it is possible to remove the bad actors at the ballot box. Yesterday I voted in thirty elections, all the way from President of the United States down to County Soil & Water Conservation District Board of Supervisors. I will have some idea that my vote has been counted, because I wrote in a few cartoon characters where I liked none of the candidates or if I did not like the unopposed candidate. Those votes get tabulated. A few years ago, Mickey Mouse came third in a local race, ahead of some real candidates.
So, even in a country that is seemingly ruled by King Donald, we have many options to pick those who govern. The process is open and nobody has complete power. Personally, I feel confident that my votes yesterday will be counted as I cast them.
Circium @9.45
Re the privatisation of Scottish Water. here is a quote from the director of Water UK Ltd.
“Scotland’s population will probably increase too, but we should all be thinking about investment and opportunity. Scotland lends itself to water collection – rerouting water to England would cost less than HS2. There’s a lot of short-sightedness.
“Birmingham would go dry in a day if it wasn’t for Wales. It’s the United Kingdom after all”.
So there you have it. Its the United Kingdom after all and when you look at the land, the lochs and the assets that Scottish Water has, it’s ripe for privatisation ……and it will be!
Me @ 9.58 pm
Further updates from the Harassment and Complaints Committee correspondence page ,
Letter from Sir Peter Housden on 23rd October ,
https://www.parliament.scot/HarassmentComplaintsCommittee/20201023SirPeterHousdentoConvener.pdf
Which was in reply to this letter sent from the committee convener on 19th October ,
https://www.parliament.scot/HarassmentComplaintsCommittee/General%20documents/20201016ConvenertoSirPeterHousden.pdf
Willie
I worked on a maritime transport feasibility study into Scottish water exports by tanker to England. Its very real.
Scottish major ports and airports, all now offshore private equity owned, and exploited. (A former perm secr chair of edin airport co!)
CMAL/calmac ferry fleet ready to privatise too – VESCO.
Scotland’s elite universities, self-regulating and focused on high fee students / recruiting academics from outwith Scotland.
NHS – now being readied for privatisation too, via the mask of Covid19.
The SNP elite have continued to give Scotland away just like Labour/Tories before – they are utter trash.
Scotland’s ‘establishment’ incl. SNP elite is aye a mankit unionist cesspit.
Still not convinced the NEC’s right-wing and parochial authoritarianism pose a serious threat to Scotland’s culture and democracy? Only the hardest-core totalitarians would seek to reject “Human Dignity in Bioethics and Law.” Yet that is exactly what the NRC is determined force on Scots law.
https://www.bloomsburyprofessional.com/uk/human-dignity-in-bioethics-and-law-9781849461771/
NEC obvs.
I never said ALL the SNPs ills stem from M I5 you arse. Read the fucki g post. Or remain horrendously naive
Skip_NC
Thanks for that
It also explains why the Republican Party places so much emphasis on voter suppression.
When its hard to interfere with the voting procedure
Try and influence who gets to vote in the first place
Oh, and in addition to my post at 10:01pm, I should mention that the selection of candidates, in many states, is by the same method as a general election. When you register to vote, you pick a recognized party or choose to be unaffiliated. In states that have primary elections, those who choose a party (and, in some states, unaffiliated voters) get to vote in a regular election, counted by public elections officials. Imagine that.
The point is that, in a primary system, if you get on the ballot, the only thing that will stop you from winning is someone else getting more votes.
Would someone please make sure this “How to write a systematic review of reasons”, gets in front of the NEC. As their approach to the law and public policy is simply incoherent and lacks theoretical robustness. So the NEC is simply incapable of supporting public health or democracy. Though they appear perfectly capable of delivering Scots into the loving care of English Torydum.
https://jme.bmj.com/content/38/2/121
mike cassidy, yes the Republican party worked out that the ways to influence the political process are
(1) election of judges at the right level (in Scotland, that would be, broadly, Sherrifs Principal and the Court of Session). This gets people in place who can rule on constitutional matters.
(2) Winning state legislatures, or other bodies that are in charge of the decennial redistricting so that they can draw congressional boundaries that suit the party
(3) Getting people into offices that are, at first sight, apolitical. For instance the Secretary of State in each state does a lot of work that is boring but necessary – business registrations etc – but they sometimes have power over elections. Look at the Alabama case last week that banned Alabama counties from having curbside voting. This is great for those who are elderly or infirm. You sit in the car and a poll worker brings your ballot to you in locked box. It lets people vote who might otherwise be denied. The Supreme Court said it was OK to ban counties who wanted to do it from doing it. So it’s not all a bowl of cherries.
Of course, the Democratic Party has done all those shenanigans too over the years, but the Republican Party has turned it into an art form in the last decade. Here in NC, though, we have county and state elections boards filled with people of both main parties who want to do the right thing and judges at state & federal level that are happy to knock heads together. A couple of weeks ago, a federal judge, on being presented with an agreement between two parties simply said “This is not what I agreed to last week. Come back next Monday with something that complies with my order.” This was a judge that is well known as a Republican, but he applied his foot to the backsides of Republicans and Democrats in equal measure. Again, it’s all in the open and fully reported in a media that is not horribly slanted one way.
There comes a point when you have to say enough is enough. We cannot continue to believe the false promises and weasel words spouted by the Murrell government over the last few years. We are no further forward since 2014 despite several open goals and a general dissatisfaction, even hatred, of this venal Tory government that we did not vote for. All of this has been squandered, ineptly or deliberately, by Sturgeon and her cabal. We may never have such a chance to break this corrupt union again yet our politicians continue to dither and deflect. The window of opportunity is fast closing as Bojo the buffoon presses ahead with his plans to further illegally usurp the devolution agreement and totally neuter Holyrood post Brexit on 31 December. Of one thing you can be sure – there will be no precipitative action from Sturgeon by that date. Subsequently, with a totally biased media and no voice at Holyrood, you can kiss goodbye to independence for a long time. It will not be the fault of Joe Public who will then be fed an even more overwhelming avalanche of lies, obfuscation and outright propaganda from a totally controlled media to the point where they will believe black is white. The fault will lie squarely with Nicola Sturgeon, Peter Murrell, and their cronies.
We must be rid of this cancer at the heart of the SNP. We have to be resigned to the fact that independence will have been put back many years by these people and, if there is not an urgent revolution at the heart of the party, the only way forward is a fresh start and the sooner the better. Either way, stop the membership subs, stop the donations and stop the fund raising activities. Starve them of cash and the whole rotten edifice will crumble. We can then get on with creating the society all decent scots want.
Having been a lifelong (and it’s been a long life) supporter of Scottish independence, it is with a heavy heart I have to say I cannot vote SNP on the constituency or list ballots in the next HR election nor vote for them in any subsequent local council, HR or Westminster elections until the corruption at the heart of the SNP is lanced. I will never vote for a unionist party but instead will give my vote to the most credible of any alternative independence supporting party on the ballot or, failing that, to an independent who I think will do good for the local community. If none of these options exist I will simply not vote.
@MaggieC
I hate saying this but I hope Jackie Baillie is on the ball tomorrow.
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
must of been something I said.
Anyone else struggling to politics seriously in ight of the seemingly blatant lies our First Minister has been telling on the Salmond stuff?
I mean… it’s all sort of fucked now, isn’t it? What’s the point in even discussing it?
*struggling to TAKE politics seriously
@ Hatuey
It’s a game to them but real life to us.
Looks like South Lanarkshire is going to DefCon 4 (or is that Tier?).
I’ll follow the instructions but I’m starting to feel like a fucking astronaut 🙂
Re Harassment and Complaints Committee ,
It’s being reported that Judith Mckinnon is to give her evidence by audio link only tomorrow , I had already seen it being discussed on social media and it was also mentioned on the Scotland Tonight programme earlier .
Whether it’s true or not it I suppose we’ll have to wait until the meeting starts , If she only gives her evidence by audio that is wrong and she must be called in person to give her evidence .
cynicalHighlander, I just don’t know how anyone can talk about elections next year, indyref2, etc., etc., as long as she is still in the job.
I want my money back.
-Alf Baird at 10.24-
Horrifying didn’t realise it was quite so bad.
Despite its title can I recommend a book called “The Rise and Fall of the British Nation” by David Edgerton. Basically argues that pre-WW2 Britain was a global trading nation, after 1945 the economy became more “national”, since 1979 it’s reverted, except what this means in practice is that now everything in UK is offshore and foreign-owned. Very interesting book. If Scotland became independent we could pursue a “national” policy of building up our strength and running our own economy, within a global context of course. Looks unlikely under the current SNP lot- meet the old boss, same as the old boss, just with a different flag.
“Show us the legal advice on Alex Salmond investigation, MSPs urge”
“With a majority of MSPs indicating they are willing to support the motion, the Tories will seek an urgent question on the issue at Holyrood today and bring forward a full parliamentary debate and vote as soon as possible.”
https://archive.is/HFEh8#selection-815.0-815.221
Good article that… note what the former head of the civil service, Sir Peter Housden, says;
“I can confirm that I was not aware of any harassment concerns and so did not discuss any with Ms Sturgeon. While your letter refers only to ‘harassment concerns’, for the avoidance of doubt, I did not discuss any ‘bullying and intimidatory’ behaviour by Mr Salmond with Ms Sturgeon either.”
.
It is a horrendous state of affairs when you have to think about relying on the Tories to help clean up the stench made by Sturgeon, Murrell and their McWoke pals.
https://archive.is/j7imj
Even worse when the salvation is to be nudged forward, in part, by the man who was subject to dry humour from Stu., that Mundell Jnr’s father might have embraced his homosexualityy sooner to avoid more dreadful speeches.
The resultant legal dystopian nightmare where Stuart Campbell won in court, but lost in fees, but won morally, but lost politically, but won legally, but lost gerrymanderingly. And repeat this cycle until your brain melts.
Anyway, I wonder WHO in the SNP would do the honourable thing and BREAK RANKS to FORCE the release of the legal advice which was part of the genesis that had Alex Salmond fighting against charges that may have seen him imprisoned for life.
Maybe some hope yet, but hope gifted by the Tories? The world has gone mad, bad and sad!
All this talk of a May 2021 election and who to vote for, FUCK holyrood 2021 and the murrell cabal, as soon as the Imperial Market Bill receives lizzie’s consent we should ALL be demanding and FORCING SOMEONE to take legal action to the ICJ on our behalf, to register that the TOU has been breached and our government has allowed this situation to go on unchallenged
Are you listening JOANNA CHERRY and ALEC SALMOND, we have supported both of you with our money and integrity and stood resolutely by your side, believing in Alec’s innocence and supporting Joanna against the murrell clique, WE have stood by you in YOUR time of need ,We now need YOU more than ever to step up with our support to bring these lying corrupt trai tors to justice, and to save our and YOUR Scotland from decimation
In reply to Maggiec at 1233, yes in audio only and via a link
”Unlike other witnesses, Ms Mackinnon will appear remotely and with audio only after a request for her evidence to be heard in that form to the Scottish Parliament authorities. At the weekend it was reported that her evidence is to be heard in that form after she was targeted by social media.
”Ms Mackinnon’s name has cropped up in previous evidence given to the Salmond inquiry.
”The committee has heard the human resources specialist had been appointed to the post of investigating officer by Nicola Richards, the Scottish Government’s director of people”
https://archive.is/k42fo
The Tory Government has awarded Unionist Gold Digger
Supreme Michelle Moan and her associates a £122 Million
contract to supply 25 million gowns to the NHS.
The company she is associated with was only formed 44 days earlier?
This again can be nothing more than blatant corruption and abuse of power.
Would this £5 gown be one of the plastic aprons that are little more than
a 20p Vin bag, or is it a cheap paper throw away one that might cost up to £2 ?
Does anyone think these items will be manufactured anywhere other than China?
I take it that our caring sharing Westminster Government will automatically add £12 Million
to Scotland’s debt share plus an interest rate.
The Tories took offence at being called scum.
I’d like to apologise to Scum for associating it with England’s Tories!
Interesting, in particular the timing.
I attended the final hustings for the south Glasgow MSP selection. I want to vote for James Dornan, and I’ve received loads of emailed election material from all three candidates. No ballot though. I’ve written to James’s office, and they have referred me to someone else in the SNP. Wrote to that person yesterday seeking to find out where my ballot is? — nothing back yet. Trying to secure a ballot is on today’s ‘to do’ list; or is the selection over?
Effijy
£122 million would feed a lot of children.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/554276
Marcus Rashford has probably done more for the disadvantaged than Labour has done in the past 20 years.
It’s worth going to the petition site just to see the counter whizz – that’s what real support looks like.
Elmac @ 11.39
It’s a perfect of the cleft stick.
SNP vote falls to the delight of the cabal and wipes out all this talk of rising enthusiasm for independence.
SNP vote reflects independence polling and, given you can’t argue with what counts as success, allows the current (circular) course to continue.
My money’s on the former.
“perfect example”
If the wheeze of getting “wokeist” candidates standing in the HR election does not work, will the next ploy be “we have to postpone the election ’till the Corona outbreak is under control”?
Bet someone “close to the top” is contemplateing it.
A Person 9.39pm
I had dealing’s with Sturgeon many years ago when she was a young lawyer involving a house purchase and she was a cold arrogant unsmiling individual who left a lasting impression on me.
‘In normal circumstances that might seem like paranoia.‘
No, I disagree, even in normal circumstances such an occurance would be totally wrong and very suspect, but as you say in present circumstances is deeply damning. They go from bad to worse, and for me at least are taking away any last shred of faith I had in the party being a party of some fairness.
“I think you are fretting about nothing. This looks like the voting for the branch officers at the AGM. You don’t actually say what the vote was for. Election of office bearers takes place at every AGM. Never heard of Mi voice before. At our branch AGM recently we just had a show of hands on Zoom. In most branches they struggle to get people to assume office. It is unusual to even have challengers.”
What extraordinary complacency.
Aperson “we are asked to believe that, faced with the actual secession of a part of their own country, with which many will have ties, and which has a vast portion of Britain’s most precious natural resources,”
Wrong! A country which ends a Treaty because the other party has breached the terms of that Treaty is not secession. Nor is Scotland a part of their country of britain/england.Scotland is and has been for hundreds of years, a country in its own right, one of the oldest countries in Europe and older than the country of England/britain.
@ Hatuey at 12:45 am
“I want my money back.”
Shouldn’t be a problem…..Write not an e-mail, althogh you can add an e-mail before or after sending…wait the rquired time and then submit a small claim to the court
as an aside I would like to think,anyone who paid into the Yes.Scot (referendum money) could consider such and action
It would scare the crap out of the NEC
I see the women’s toilet guy is featuring in the National,
( is it published in Wokingham)
“Stuart what are the three biggest concerns about the SNP just now?”
(1) the leader
(2) the CEO
(3) the COO
For that election I carted my computer (plus an external keyboard, as its own keyboard was faulty at the time) all the way to Bavaria (I was touring with our choir) in order to vote. I was stymied big-time by my email client refusing to play ball with my host’s wifi (I entered the correct password – which I don’t usually have to enter at all – multiple times, but never connected). Because I was unable to pick up the email with the link to my voting page, I couldn’t cast my preferences.
Who knew that I could just have emailed Ian McCann once I got home and asked for my votes to be added…
Does Ian McCann’s name appear in any of the e mails
Time to reverse the blackmail I think.
Nicola’s biggest mistake was to get involved in conspiracy caus everyone involved can threaten you in the future