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Rushing to the gallows

Posted on April 19, 2017 by

One of the most famous tales of the celebrated British hangman Albert Pierrepoint is that concerning James Inglis, a murderer who in 1951 sprinted the short distance from the condemned cell to the noose, enabling the entire execution to be concluded just seven seconds after Pierrepoint had first laid hands on him.

We can’t help thinking of it today.

The Fixed Term Parliaments Act is a Tory law, enacted in 2011 by David Cameron’s government with the sole and express purpose of preventing governments from doing exactly what Theresa May intends to do in the Commons later today – cynically using temporary polling advantage to extend their term in office.

It stipulates that a two-thirds majority of all MPs (not just the ones who actually take part in the vote) must vote for any motion to dissolve Parliament and call an early election, which is 433 votes – over 100 more than the Tories can currently command if every one of their MPs obeys the party whip.

In other words, it cannot be achieved – by design – without the support of the main party of opposition, which in this case is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn currently languishes around 20 points behind in the polls and most projections predict a Tory majority of over 100 seats, compared to the current one of 17.

So why on Earth would the Labour leader go along with it?

An opposition voting against an election seems instinctively foolish, of course. At the most basic ideological level the opposition should always want a chance to unseat the government. But it should also not wish to make its own position worse and give that government an extra two years in power unnecessarily.

Corbyn currently has three years to turn public opinion round – three years in which the Tories are likely to find themselves in a godawful swamp of Brexit negotiations and all manner of other difficulties. If he loses an election now, Labour would then be a minimum of FIVE years away from power. It would not be difficult, therefore, to sell resistance to the election as both a pragmatic and a principled stance.

(General pundit opinion appears to be that refusing to dissolve Parliament would meet with great mockery from the right-wing press. Exactly how would that be different from every other day?)

There is no national emergency requiring the government to take this drastic course of action. No major policy has been blocked. They have a perfectly serviceable working majority. Public opinion is not clamouring for another election.

The SNP, we gather, plan to abstain. So it’s entirely up to Labour whether the vote passes or not. Corbyn could absolutely legitimately stand up and say “No, you are the government the people elected in 2015 to rule for exactly five years – accept the will of the electorate, work with what you’ve got and get on with the day job.”

Should Labour refuse to support today’s motion, the Tories would still have a second avenue available – they could call for a vote of no confidence in themselves, which would put them in the humiliating position of having to stand up in the Commons and argue that they were too terrible a government to be allowed to continue, and that the law they themselves passed just six years ago was incompetent and reckless.

Even on the assumption that the Tories would eventually win that vote (which requires 50%+1 rather than a two-thirds majority) and got their election, Labour would have succeeded in embarrassing them and making them look shambolic and farcical, which at the very least has to count as a tactical victory.

At best, meanwhile, delaying the process could actually cause the Tories to lose their majority altogether as a result of the ongoing police inquiry into possible 2015 electoral fraud by dozens of their MPs, which is due to deliver a verdict very soon.

Oppositions – whose sworn duty to the sovereign and the nation is to make life as difficult for the government as possible – are rarely presented with such an open goal as this. If Labour can’t even take the chance to exert pressure on a government that’s clearly uncomfortable in its current position, they really are literally useless.

If they meekly go along with the Tories’s cynical ploy – the sole purpose of which is to destroy them – they will fully deserve to be propelled through the trapdoor to eternity.

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  1. 19 04 17 10:57

    Rushing to the gallows | speymouth

  2. 20 04 17 10:03

    A Few Thoughts On What In Blazes Is Going On | A Wilderness of Peace

397 to “Rushing to the gallows”

  1. Betty Boop says:

    Och, the Tories have been destroying Labour since err… forever. It’s just that “Labour” haven’t noticed yet. Someday…

  2. Richardinho says:

    I’ve thought about this too: The conclusion I’ve reached is that Corbyn is sick of his job and simply wants a reason to go himself.

  3. MajorBloodnok says:

    The only thing I can think of is that Labour doesn’t want to be the ones that have to manage and negotiate Brexit should the Tory Government fall, which it might well do if all those election expense cases come home to roost before they can call another general election darn quick.

  4. Juteman says:

    Now is not the time.

  5. Marko says:

    But Labour aren’t about to vote against it. Corbyn is in the weird position of needing to appease his own MPs who are desperate to get rid of him at any cost. It’s the old Bart Simpson paradox, your damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

  6. Bob Mack says:

    We were way ahead of you on the previous thread Rev. I think we all figured it out last evening that Labour will indeed fall into another Tory trap instead of letting them stew in their own juice. You have taught us well.

  7. alexicon says:

    The labour party should vote against this general election, as well as the other opposition parties, then watch the tories squirm for the next few years.
    The labour party voting for it is just playing into the tories hands.

  8. alexicon says:

    They could always make the excuse that now is not the time for a divisive general election and that the tories don’t have a mandate.

  9. TheStrach says:

    Completely agree. If they vote to give the Tories what they want they’ll deserve to move further towards extinction.

  10. Dr Ew says:

    Malcolm Tucker might advise a wiser course would be to agree to a suspension of the Fixed Parliament Act… after the criminal investigation into the election fraud is concluded.

  11. Brad Millar says:

    the Red Tories are their own worst enemy, suppose it will give us a chance to unseat Mundell, Carmichael and Murray all sitting on small majorities of less than 1K … and with the Scottish Greens not standing in Mundell’s constituency bring it on

  12. Dr Ew says:

    Pity he’s still busy with Dr Who.

  13. mosstrooper says:

    It is truly astounding that the Labour party appears to fear the opprobrium of the right wing press more than the prospect of annihilation at the polls.

  14. Scott says:

    I can’t believe Labour are not going to block this election.

    It’s one of the few meaningful powers they have.

    Surely they cannot be that stupid?

  15. mogabee says:

    I am so against public executions…but

    Labour have been killing themselves for the last few years, so I really don’t want to intrude on their private policy.

    Meanwhile, Tories are coming out to the press/media on an hourly basis trying to explain away T May’s massive U Turn as not a massive U Turn. :}

    If I might use one of Stu’s words…it’s a “clusterfuck” and no mistake. 😀

  16. ClanDonald says:

    He’s not too bright, that Corbyn. No analytical skills. The Rev’s obvious conclusion, above, is not available to his limited intellect. It’s the only explanation.

  17. Marie Clark says:

    As a lot of us jaloused on the previous thread, it’s probably the threat of the CPS that’s spurred them to go for it. I could not quite get my head around it yesterday, why was she announcing a GE before she had even asked parliament to vote on it. This bunch of chancers are totally out of control and need to be reined in.

    Which brings us neatly to the opposition, missing in action again. It’s beyond my comprehension what labour think they are doing. The goal is wide open, and they decide to pick the ba’ up and leave the field. In my opinion, they do not have anything to lose by voting against the government, but my goodness, they have a helluva lot to lose if the vote with them.

    Let’s get the hell outa Dodge folks, now is the time.

  18. Brian McHugh says:

    Labour might get wiped out in England, never mind just in Scotland.

  19. A.H. says:

    They (the Tories) have a third option – they could pass a law (with a simple majority) that says an early election will take place on June 8th 2017, as long as said law states explicitly it applies regardless of the Fixed Term Parliaments Act.

    In other words – in the UK legal system, no parliament can bind its successors. Laws doing so are only relevant as long as the majority in parliament is willing to let them stand.

  20. Marcia says:

    Labour should have said, ‘now is not the time’ and blocked it and made her look foolish.

    The forthcoming election expenses saga could still embarrass the Tories if decisions to prosecute fall with the election campaign period. Any attempt by the Tories to interfere with that due process will no doubt find its way to the media even though they will try.

  21. call me dave says:

    I think Corbyn was too quick to announce that they would go along with the Tory 2/3 rule. Why not let them stew in their own juices, waiting on the Electoral Commission report and possible prosecutions.

    Labour allow them an escape clause and the whitewash brush to paint over the truth.

    Far better to get the Tories to call a vote of no confidence in themselves. How about voting to keep them in even then and see how that goes!

    Jonathan on shortbread radio (SNP supporter) going to vote Scottish lab this time round. FGS!

    Auntie Kaye with a kilt on must have a list of them on speed dial.

    Cooncil elections first, one step at a time.

  22. jimnarlene says:

    Labour party, two words that will come to mean, feking useless.

  23. mike d says:

    Liebor will definitely be wiped out in England,and re the GE in Scotland. We need the votes of the 16/17 yr olds and the eu immigrants to counter the tory votes of the white settlers. Otherwise no indy vote.

  24. Fergus Green says:

    If the underlying reason for calling the election was to deflect attention away from the election expenses scandal, one possible reason for Labour supporting the Tories is that they also overspent during the 2015 campaign and are likely to be in the same awkward position as the Blue Tories.

    I can’t think of another reason why they would want to support the government.

  25. Jomu says:

    Fiver says Jezza refuses to resign come the historic drubbing and the morning of despair. Kinnock got a second shot in 1992, after all. Besides, every one of those Labour votes on June 8 was for socialism: a spectacular moral victory! Tony Benn said so of 1983. Peace be upon Jezza’s idol.

    The loony left has a long record at barking at the moon like this. Stick in there, Corbyn my son!

  26. One_Scot says:

    I am not a conspiracy theorist, and I’m not saying May and Corbyn had agreed this before the election was announced, and I’m definitely not saying that a big brown envelope was placed under Corbyns pillow last night, lol.

  27. Richardinho says:

    What bothers me is why TM called this election knowing that parliament would have to vote on it and that Labour would quite possibly vote against leaving her looking very silly indeed. Had she spoken to Corbyn beforehand? Were they sure that Corbyn wanted a GE too? Or was it just a big gamble?

  28. schrodingers cat says:


  29. ann says:

    I fail to understand why Corbyn even agrees to this, he and his party are on a hiding to nothing and oblivion.

    If the guy does not want the job, get his party to reject giving the Tories the starting gun for a June election and with this one victory over them he can stand down and hopefully some young upcoming and forward looking Labour member will stand to the fore to take the party forward.

  30. Bill says:

    Labour MP Chris Matheson voting against.

    Fingers crossed.

  31. heedtracker says:

    So why on Earth would the Labour leader go along with it?

    Because essentially, he’s an other fine English chap that wants to take back control, from all those bally foreign types.

    Lets face it, Labour’s Remain campaign was terrible and England’s a country that wants it independence now. Scots have got to shut up, stay with England, vote Labour, for our on good and because they love us really.

  32. Wee Jock Poo-Pong McPlop says:

    Errr…just WHY are the SNP abstaining?

  33. Ian McCubbin says:

    A needless election so May can avoid and delaybrexit plan dealing with Scotland wanting independence and clutching at straws that cheerleading Ruth will revive Tories in Scotland

  34. Mo Workman says:

    Perhaps Corbyn hopes that by whipping his MP’s they will do the opposite as is usually the case and he will not have to lose face by abstaining.

  35. Fred says:

    A cunning plan! but what is it?

  36. Dean says:

    The obvious downside to voting against the general election in a time when anything seems to be construed as a mandate for or against whatever the flavour of the month is, is that the Press will claim that labour have just handed May a mandate to rule/destroy the world.

  37. MajorBloodnok says:

    Isn’t it fascinating that the UK is being dragged into Brexit and other calamities simply because both main parties are primarily trying to deal with internal divisions rather than seeking to deliver in a principled way what is best for the country as a whole. We are at the end of the road for the UK now.

  38. Martin says:

    I cannot understand why labour are agreeing to this. But the SNP abstaining? That’s pretty much the same thing.

  39. Brian McHugh says:

    I would guess the SNP are abstaining, cos it leaves the decision then to Labour. The SNP cannot get a 2/3rds vote on their own, where-as if Labour voted against, then The Torys would be defeated… provided Labour are not split of course.

  40. Big Jock says:

    My dream scenario is the Scots electing 59 SNP mp’s. Its absolutely possible. Why not.

  41. Skip_NC says:

    Wee Jock, I was surprised to read that too. But then, voting against a referendum – er – election might come back to bite them and siding with the tories would do that too.

    So now we have two referendums. One on Brexit in England and one on independence for Scotland. If the smaller pro- independence parties had any sense they would take a step back this time round and allow their supporters to coalesce around the SNP.

  42. JLT says:

    To be honest, I can’t think of any other time in British history where uncertainty reigns supreme.

    And what the Tories – and let’s not forget Labour here – seem to be doing nothing short of some mad form of mass-suicide where they intend to take the British electorate with them. It’s like the political version of David Koresh with his acolytes during the Waco siege, where they are now dragging those who are both unwilling and wanting to leave into participating in what seems to be a pact where everyone has to suffer before we get that ‘enlightenment’ and brighter future.

    But by having no alternative future, nor having absolutely any answers on anything that could clarify on what we are all seeking, it seems we are all going to be dragged along to a point where the nation will hand absolute authority to Theresa, and Theresa and her acolytes will then take the UK down a path where not only are there are no answers, but could end up destroying their ‘precious’ union altogether. It’s madness …complete and utter madness.

    Well …I just hope that the vast majority of Scotland is becoming alarmingly aware of the path that we are descending here today.

  43. starlaw says:

    Tory Labour both the same. State always comes first, Labour have no wish to defeat the Tories on matters of State.

  44. Ken500 says:

    Corbyn is useless. What could be expected from a trougher who sat in a Party and disagreed with every major decision. An absolute failure. Most people would have gone off and done something useful. Most of them should be in jail for fraud and deception. Starting with Blair, Brown and the Tory clowns. Cameron, Osbourne, Johnston, Gove etc. Breaking the Law with impunity.

    Will the Tories commit lie and electoral fraud again to win an election? The Tories could lose again. Or have a non workable majority. Just the same scenario. How many if them will be charged and convicted. The EU Ref is a farce. An illegitimate, illegal exercise which will have to be run again. The Tories have mucked up disastrously again. Farron is a criminal breaking the equal opportunity equality Laws.

  45. DerekM says:

    Blue tory Red tory same tory.

    I did warn the momentum guys they were voting in a tory patsy and when the crunch came they would be betrayed by the PLP.

    Well momentum it is crunch time.

    I am old enough to remember Foot as the Labour leader and the bewilderment of the party that he got elected,but now looking back it was all just a way to make the conservatives more electable.

    And boy did old Worzel Gummidge make them electable.

    Jeremy Corbyn is the new Worzel Gummidge.

  46. starlaw says:

    JTL 10:46
    excellent description. you put it in a nutshell.

  47. Black Joan says:

    Well even the BBC website is daring to mention the 2015 election expenses scandal, so maybe there is hope that it won’t be brushed under the carpet.

    Not that Nick (he didn’t answer the question) Robinson bothered to mention that to the PM on the Today programme this morning.

    Cannot comprehend what Labour are thinking.

  48. ArabiaTerra says:

    I think you’re missing something here. If Labour block this, May will simply force through a short bill repealing the Fixed Term Parliament Act, and have the election anyway.

  49. call me dave says:

    GE Election results. Tories 331.

    2/3rds required to call a new election. 594 X 2/3 = 396 (No SNP)

    331 < 396

    The SNP 56 VOTES are not really critical in the numbers.

    If the 2/3 fail then Tories could go to 50% +1 on another vote of no confidence in themselves kinda thing but on another day.

    Today is not the time.

    Labour. Hmm! They wont do it. 🙂

  50. Bob W says:

    As a 2/3 majority is required, voting against or abstaining, has no practical effect.

  51. Gavin Greig says:

    At the very least he could use it as leverage to get her into TV leadership debates (I won’t vote for it unless you agree to participate) which would also put her in the position of looking foolish and scared unless she agreed.

    I’m inclined to think that saying “Now is not the time, let’s see what the CPS has to say first” would be best though.

  52. Dr Jim says:

    I was amazed nobody used the no confidence vote to at least make them have to admit they were usleless no matter what happened after it

  53. liz says:

    I think abstaining is the right thing to do.
    Very few people want this election, this is really about England.

    Nicola can say,now is not the time, this is causing more uncertainty and confusion etc etc

  54. Quentin Quale says:

    Perhaps Corbyn is being coached in political strategy by Kezia.

  55. old highlander says:

    May is terrified of a live TV debate, too many skeletons rattling in the cupboard.

    No matter which way things go we will get shafted again and again and again as we have been for the last three hundred years and more.

    How much more of it can the good people take.

  56. Tony Little says:

    SNP abstaining, I think, so that they are washing their hands of the process. In effect an abstention is the same as a vote against as the Government has to have 2/3 VOTES of Parliament cast in favour and nit just a majority. Labour could of course do the same and the attempt would fall.

    2/3 of HoC is 433 positive votes.

  57. orri says:

    The 2/3rds required is of all seats including those not currently filled.

    Handily avoids springing such a vote without due warning in order to win one.

    In this case that’s 434 voting in favour.

    Obviously that kind of minimum level of support was good enough in ’79 to delay “devolution” by 20 odd years. The SNP are simply returning the favour.

  58. CameronB Brodie says:

    You might have something there heedtracker, I think it was Bomber Ben who wrote recently that Labour have to counter the Tories, who were clearly looking to capture the energy of English nationalism. England has voted to Brexit and Labour don’t fancy their chances against the inertia of reactionary, insular nationalism.

    N.B. Contemporary British nationalism is an expansionist form of English nationalism. Not very pleasant.

  59. Chris Baxter says:

    Corbyn couldn’t prevent the election if he wanted to. Most Labour MPs would go along with it so with an electoral beating Corbyn will have no choice but to go.

  60. pitchfork says:

    RE: Abstaining

    Under the terms of the Fixed Term Parliament Act May needs a 2/3 majority of *Seats* to vote in favour, not just a 2/3 majority of votes cast.

    This means that abstentions are effectively votes against allowing her to call the early election but without actually voting No. For once abstaining makes sense.

  61. orri says:

    May could always wait to lose her majority temporarily whilst any re-elections due to the electoral expense scandal take place. Labour might then go for a vote of no-confidence at that point. Or the could wait to see how that pans out and go in to a new election against a government that fell due to cheating.

    Also the SNP aren’t actually opposing a new election. Labour can abstain too. They haven’t said they’d actually support another election.

  62. pitchfork says:

    Faisal Islam has been explaining how the FTPA works (and the need for a majority of MPs , not just cast votes to trigger an early election) on twitter. Worth looking for.

  63. Donald says:

    Is there an argument for Jeremy Corbyn that goes something along these lines:

    1. He won’t be able to change public opinion in 3 years, so he agrees to this GE (he’d lose in three years anyway)
    2. He loses the GE.
    3. He either refuses to resign, has a leadership contest that he’ll win (again) or makes sure someone in his inner circle wins.
    4. That then gives him five years – rather than three – to change public opinion.

    If he does that, huge chance Labour would split (oh dry my watering eyes) but it is sort of a way to give him more time to get his message across.

    All that said, it’s madness from Labour.

  64. call me dave says:

    Here’s a bit of interesting history from an article in 2015.

    Where AS mentioned the 2011 Fixed Term Parliament Act and the 2/3rds scenario.

  65. Bob Mack says:

    The SNP Abstaining is exactly right. Think about it. May needs another election to win Labour’s seats in N England which are primarily leave the eU. She needs this because electoral fraud cases which are upcoming, endangers her current majority.

    If people abstain they put May in a very ,very, difficult position. She needs this election.

  66. heedtracker says:

    CameronB Brodie says:
    19 April, 2017 at 11:25 am
    You might have something there heedtracker, I think it was Bomber Ben who wrote recently that Labour have to counter the Tories, who were clearly looking to capture the energy of English nationalism.

    Its hard to see it any other way. JC’s not mad, he’s English, English exceptionalism is very English. Its nice too, if you let them have their way.

    Otherwise, watch them rage, at the EU and ofcourse, Scots like you and me.

  67. John H says:

    John Nicolson on channel 5 this morning said that Theresa May has stated that she wants to get rid of the “wishy washy” policies she inherited from David Cameron. I dread to think what a tory victory with a greatly increased majority would mean for ordinary people.

  68. Robert Peffers says:

    There is another explanation that always seems to fly over the heads of even the most dedicated Wingers. There is a fixed idea in most people’s minds that Westminster is a parliament of a Government, an opposition and a group of others. In normal circumstances that is indeed how it seems to the outside world.

    However, there has always been another factor that has always been present at Westminster and it is that, above all else, Westminster is a major part of the English, “Establishment”. When the chips are down Westminster automatically closes ranks against all outsiders.

    Scotland and the SNP are outsiders and anyone with normal sensory facilities such as eyes, ears and a brain can see, “The Establishment”, swing into full, head on, action at such Westminster institutions as, “Scottish Questions”.

    The quite blatant show of, “British”, Nationalism and anti-Scottish bile exhibited by every Unionist Party, be they Tory, Labour, LibDem or UKIP, transcends any internal differences the Establishment pretends to have. This is, “The Establishment”, in action.

    However, never make the easy mistake of thinking Westminster is, “The Establishment”, for Westminster is merely a useful tool of, “The Establishment”. As are the Media, the upper echelons of the Education System, the Church of England, the Financial system, the armed forces, police and security services and the Civil Services.

    But above them all are the Royals, Aristocracy and the rich elites who control large international companies.

    Think on this – We still have hereditary peers and English Archbishops sitting unelected in the House of Lords. These are joined by those that The Establishment has Her Majesty grant Honours to, and those Royals and hereditary peers were the leaders of the Anglo-Saxon and Norman invaders who took over South Britain after the Romans left Britain.

    That, Wingers is the reason that Jeremy Corbyn will do as he is told and instruct his MPs to vote with the Tories for an election that is totally against a Labour Party’s best interests.

    The Establishment will always close ranks to protect the Establishment against all outside threats and Scotland has always been, and always will remain, an enemy of the Establishment.

  69. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I think you’re missing something here. If Labour block this, May will simply force through a short bill repealing the Fixed Term Parliament Act, and have the election anyway.”

    She might not have the majority to do that for much longer. And even if she did, so what?

  70. shiregirl says:

    Did I hear right on BBC…

    Dan Hodges (‘Labour commentator’) wants rid off Jeremy Corbyn so much, he would vote tory to rid him.


    I need someone to explain this. I accept JC isn’t everyone’s cuppa, but to vote against the party and vote tory just to rid him?

  71. Brian McHugh says:

    Just listening to Scottish Questions… Why are the SNP not challenging this new lie of a “UK Single Market”?

    There is NO such thing. There is only currently one treasuary, therefore there are no markets between treasuries. This is not anything like the EU single market.

    There are no trade deals… there is only tax benefits to one party in the so called ‘UK single market’… this lie needs to be flushed down the toilet where it belongs.

  72. Brian McHugh says:

    Corbyn is utter mince.

  73. Thepnr says:

    Theresa May’s hopes of blocking a fresh independence referendum in Scotland will “crumble to dust” if the SNP win big at the upcoming general election, Nicola Sturgeon has declared.

    Ms Sturgeon rushed down to Westminster this morning to rally her MPs and assure them a new independence vote was firmly on the ballot paper.

  74. Stoker says:

    Re; the article above:

    Yeah, Pierrepoint prided himself in the speed at which he could execute his executions. He was also, i believe, responsible for formulating the ‘height+weight+drop’ tables which lead to a quicker and cleaner snapping of the neck and instantaneous death.
    I see you asking the following over on WOS Twitter:

    “WTF am i meant to do in this election? In Bath it’s a two-horse race between the Tories and these guys:

    [“Lib Dem leader yesterday wouldn’t rule out another Tory coalition & still seems to think being gay is ‘sinful’….”]

    You could always spoil your ballot, a protest vote?
    Or help keep England Tory blue! 😉 😀

  75. One_Scot says:

    May is just pissing all over Labour. Corbyn not up to the job.

  76. Desimond says:

    @mike d
    You lost me,
    Under 18s don’t have a vote in a GE?

  77. Brian McKay says:

    Completely agree Stu. I can think of no good reason for Labour supporting this. Yes, I suppose in the very short term they could be accused of cowardice, but this will be forgotten quicker than a Lord seeking expenses. Far better to let the whole Brexit thing unravel and show the Tory party for what they are – a party for the privileged few and against the disadvantaged. Come 2020, there is every chance that Labour could win, or at least the Tories would lose its overall majority, but there is no chance for Labour in a June election. If ever the phrase ‘Turkeys voting for Christmas’ applied to a situation, this us surely it!

  78. K1 says:

    Aye Robert your finger is on the pulse on the true state of affairs. Think on it…would May have announced this without already knowing she had the support of Corbyn and Labour?

    Would Nicola have announced Scotref without already knowing she had the support of Harvie and the Greens?

    There is very little doubt that she could have proposed this without a lot of back channelling with Labour.

    As others have said re SNP, of course they should abstain for the exact reasons atl, why should they support the Tories instead let them implode, they are merely trying to consolidate their power by achieving a larger majority which is not to Scotland’s advantage…eternal Tory rule?

    Of course the fly in thesir ointment is that it will backfire spectacularly in Scotland for that very reason. As for Labour…they are committing murder suicide. One half of them hinging the ither half whilst topping themselves spectacularly in public afterwards. So gotta ask…why?

    What does the establishment gain from this act of ‘crushing Labour’?

  79. Macart says:

    Pretty much the only thing you can say about the last 24hrs and more particularly Labour’s response to date is…

    … WTAF?!?

  80. Valerie says:

    Wow, Angus goes on the saboteurs thing, and May says free Press.

    If Corbyn had a brain, he would not vote for an election, and then it would force a motion of no confidence, and Tories would have to vote for it. Repealing the Fixed Term law would also take a bit of time, and embarrass Tory further.

    Plenty options, but Corbyn is useless. He could play for time, to make Tories look dictatorial, and if he had sense would stand aside for someone like Clive Lewis.

    Corbyn, such a rebel in his past, constantly trots along with Tories plans.

  81. Song42 says:

    Like the grandma (in the vid) pointed out, she’s not happy about it…’Not another one’ – election!
    I imaging a very small part of the mindset/ play in TM ploy with what would or could have devastating consequences for Scotland.
    We hear it in Scotland too…’not another referendum’ until we keep educating why It’s important to stand strong and keep voting…YES and snp.

    So will people who are now exhausted not bother to come this time round never mind by the time we are voting indyref2 apart from YESers, who will obviously fight to the death for Scotland’s freedom.

    I went to my (new) ward 6 Hustings last night and was impressed by the Green’s Jon Molyneux and SNP Norman MacLeod (not very personable) I hear has done good work and Dr Nighet Riaz, her first time standing,
    SLabour and the only Tory (held his place for 10yrs) in Pollokshields have both done very good work for my area. Shame they both don’t come over to SNP.

    If I wasn’t voting for independence and standing by Nicola and wanting Slabour out of GCC I would be putting Greens my no1 instead of 3rd.

  82. Sinky says:

    Corbyn hasn’t a scooby and as a turkey will vote for Christmas.

    573 new SNP members yesterday.

    Pity Angus Robertson didn’t mention the racist Tory council candidates.

  83. Graeme McCormick says:

    Slightly off topic:

    I see from The Herald that the Kirk’s welcome deliberations on conducting same-sex marriage highlights the hope of Ruth Davidson that she and her partner can have a wedding in the kirk.

    I do wonder if there is a kirk minister out there who would be prepared to conduct the service when her willingness to force mothers to prove that their third and subsequent children were the result of rape to claim benefit for them is an outrageous denial of the Christ who suffered the little children to come to him.

  84. DerekM says:

    @ shiregirl

    It is all part of the big deception show that is westminster shiregirl.

    They have done this before when Maggie got elected it is from the same play book,make Labour so bad that the only choice for England is to vote conservative.

    That is why many folks mention the tories being in power for the next 20-30 years until they are so hated by the electorate,then they will stick another tombstone tony in charge of the Labour party and start the whole cycle again.

    It is quite ingenious and extremely disturbing to know that they are both in this together.

    Or as the old line goes it takes two to tango.

  85. Bob Mack says:

    Interesting quote from Duncan Hothersall. He reckons it is better to vote tory than SNP. His rationale is that he could never support nationalism.

    Duncan, I have news for you. This Tory government was elected and will be re elected on a tide of British Nationalism. I can only deduce that Mr hothersall and his ilk have very selective vision.
    It is by a long way the most right wing government in my lifetime.

  86. Ken500 says:

    Clive Lewis supports illegal wars, killing and maining millions of innocent people and causing the worst migration criss in Europe since 11WW.

    Most of them should be put in jail.

  87. Ken500 says:

    Mr Skinner comes clean

  88. sensibledave says:

    JLT 10.46

    You wrote: “And what the Tories – and let’s not forget Labour here – seem to be doing nothing short of some mad form of mass-suicide”

    I don’t think that characterisation of the situation is correct. All of the major political parties wanted the UK to Remain (bar UKIP) – that was the party policy in each case.

    It is the general public that are dragging the parties in a direction they didn’t want to go!

    Now, in England, only The Lib Dems will fight the GE on a “Remain” ticket. The lib Dems are doing that for their own very narrow party political benefit I assume. They believe that they can get more votes by attracting Remainers from all parties and, in net terms, they judge they will end up better off. Obviously, neither the Tories or Labour can go into the GE on a Remain ticket or they will be slaughtered by the electorate.

    Why is it so hard for wingers to understand that? You may disagree personally with Brexit but surely you cannot doubt that both the Tories and Labour have to fight on a Leave ticket?

    The SNP, as always, will take a contrary view to the main political wind because that is what they do. They can do that as long as the subject is “theoretical”. As soon as they are faced with the reality of dealing with an actual situation themselves then they U turn faster than an F1 car. Income tax rates in Scotland are a prime example.

    Assuming the UK does Brexit, I don’t see anyway that Scotland wont be part of said Brexit. Whilst many on Wings are quick to judge other parties for not having contingency plans in place, can anyone tell me what the Scottish government’s plans are for post Brexit? Are they going to carry on pretending it isn’t going to happen or do they actually have a plan for Scotland post Brexit?

  89. Ken500 says:

    George Osbourne gone.

    Another one down, another one gone. Another one hits the dust.

  90. Dr Jim says:

    I’m hearing the Greens are not standing a candidate against Mundell which if true is damn decent of those chaps

    I wonder if Labour would do a decent thing like that to rid Scotland of these odious Tory people or will they just see an enhanced opperchancety

  91. Fergus Green says:

    It would be ideal if Labour would abstain (they are good at doing this) followed by Corbyn calling a vote of no confidence in the government.

    Maximum embarrassment all round and a huge spanner in the works.

  92. Arbroath1320 says:

    I have to say I think Corbyn has lost the plot over this vote today. Mind you I’ve been questioning recently whether he actually has the plot to lose in the first place.

    As Stu says for Corbyn to vote against the vote today it would mean another *YAWN* onslaught from the right wing London centric media … so what! He has been up against it ever since he first became Labour leader what is really gonna change now? Absolutely nothing in my view other than as Stu also points out he’d have another 3 years to get his, and Labour’s, act properly together. As it now stands Labour are in the wilderness for another FIVE years.

    Congratulations Corbyn you’ve sold England and Wales down the river. Never mind though Bubba we have a party in Scotland that does what it says on the tin and will continue to do so and will not crumble at the first sight of Tory chaos and desire to become even more despotic than they already are!

  93. Legerwood says:

    Thepnr says:
    19 April, 2017 at 12:11 pm
    “”Theresa May’s hopes of blocking a fresh independence referendum in Scotland will “crumble to dust” if the SNP win big at the upcoming general election, Nicola Sturgeon has declared.

    Ms Sturgeon rushed down to Westminster this morning to rally her MPs and assure them a new independence vote was firmly on the ballot paper.“”


    Ms Sturgeon did not rush down to London today. She was already there.

    She went down yesterday, Tuesday, to open a new Scottish business hub in London yesterday evening. You will find an article about the business hub on the BBC news website site under Scottish Business.

  94. heedtracker says:

    Ligger Neil on his vote tory BBC lunchtime politics show just there, acting all surprised at tory election fraudster investigations, and its a possible issue now, apparently, grinch’s the Ligger, gosh really, The Ligger?

    Nice new spring hair do colour for the Ligger too, hints of the summer to come and not just another Murdoch bootboy lunatic.

  95. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    The National:

    “Nicola Sturgeon calls on Scotland to reinforce her mandate for indyref2 in the upcoming election”

    Kathleen Nutt, Journalist /
    NICOLA Sturgeon last night warned Theresa May her decision to call a snap election is a “huge political miscalculation” which could strengthen the case for a second independence referendum.

    The Tories have just a single MP – David Mundell – north of the Border, and the First Minister said the election on June 8 was an opportunity to further weaken the Tories’ presence.

    She accused May, who had repeatedly said she would not call an election until 2020, of an “extraordinary U-turn” and of putting her party before the country in a bid to increase its parliamentary majority of 17.

    “This announcement is one of the most extraordinary U-turns in recent political history, and it shows that Theresa May is once again putting the interests of her party ahead of those of the country. She is clearly betting that the Tories can win a bigger majority in England given the utter disarray in the Labour Party,” said Sturgeon.

    “That makes it all the important that Scotland is protected from a Tory Party which now sees the chance of grabbing control of government for many years to come and moving the UK further to the right – forcing through a hard Brexit and imposing deeper cuts in the process.”

    She added: “In terms of Scotland, this move is a huge political miscalculation by the Prime Minister. It will once again give people the opportunity to reject the Tories’ narrow, divisive agenda, as well as reinforcing the democratic mandate which already exists for giving the people of Scotland a choice on their future.”

    May set out her intention yesterday morning to hold the election claiming divisions at Westminster risked jeopardising the Brexit negotiations.

    She said she had “reluctantly” taken the decision to go to the country after seeing other parties “playing games” with the process of preparing for the talks.

    “Before Easter, I spent a few days walking in Wales with my husband, thought about this long and hard and came to the decision that to provide that stability and certainty for the future, this was the way to do it – to have an election,” she said.

    “I trust the British people. The British people gave the Government a job to do in terms of coming out of the European Union and I’m going to be asking the British people to put their trust in me in ensuring we deliver a success of that.”

    The campaign will take place at the same time as the Scottish Government has called for a fresh vote on independence to be held, some time between autumn 2018 and spring 2019, to allow voters a chance to decide whether to stay in the UK outside of the EU or be an independent country. The Prime Minister has rejected the demand for a second plebiscite, saying “now is not the time” for such a vote to be held.

    May later told ITV News her bid to champion the Union would be a key plank of the Tory election campaign.

    “I will be out there championing the cause of a United Kingdom. I believe that we are stronger as a United Kingdom. I think this Union we have between Northern Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales is a very precious Union,” she said.

    The First Minister was due to set out the “next steps” in her plans for an independence vote, but those could now be delayed because of the election.

    In the 2015 General Election the SNP won 56 of the 59 constituencies north of the border, while Labour, the Conservatives and the LibDems won just one seat each.

    Under the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act introduced by her predecessor David Cameron, the Prime Minister will require the support of two-thirds of MPs to go to the country, with a vote scheduled in the Commons today.

    In order to call the early election, she will need the support of two-thirds of the 650 MPs in the Commons but Labour is expected to support her, as any opposition would look weak if it did not agree to the chance to take office.

    Scottish Green co-convener Patrick Harvie said Scotland’s opposition to leaving the EU “cannot be allowed to fall on deaf ears” in the election.

    “I’m sure that voters in Scotland will not allow this election to satisfy the whims of a dangerous hard-right party determined to damage our economy, public services and threaten our EU friends and neighbours who have made Scotland their home. Instead, we must reassert our choice for a fairer and more equal society,” he said.

    The Scottish Independence Convention (SIC) condemned May’s snap election announcement and said the only way to protect Scotland from a hard Brexit was “to ensure all 59 Scottish MPs are returned with an explicit mandate to hold a second independence referendum”.

    SIC convener Elaine C Smith added: “Once again Scots are being dragged into a Westminster dog-fight that is not of our making and doesn’t fit Scottish political priorities.

    “But members of the SIC are ready to mobilise all networks and members to ensure this election creates the opportunity to show Westminster that Scots insist on the right to consider independence again in light of the vast constitutional change set in train by Brexit and the explicit commitments we hope the SNP and Greens will make in their manifestos.

    “As Scotland’s First Minister has repeatedly said that second referendum vote should not happen now but once the shape of the Brexit deal is clear.”

    Scottish Tory leader Ruth Davidson, Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale and Scottish LibDem leader Willie Rennie underlined their opposition to a second independence referendum in their responses to the announcement.

    The Commons vote on whether the election can go ahead will follow a 90 minute debate today, after Prime Minister’s Questions.

    May will go into the General Election enjoying the largest poll lead across the UK of any Tory PM in modern history. The Tories currently lead Labour by an average of 17 points. No other Tory Government in modern times has been this far ahead of the main opposition party 51 days from a General Election.

  96. Arbroath1320 says:

    Dr Jim says:
    19 April, 2017 at 12:45 pm

    I’m hearing the Greens are not standing a candidate against Mundell which if true is damn decent of those chaps

    According the today’s National Dr. J. they are indeed not standing in Scruffy Fluffy’s constituency or in Calum Kerr’s adjacent constituency of Berwickshire,Roxburgh and Selkirk.

    The great news is that oor Emma Harper is standing in Dumfriesshire,Clydesdale and Tweedale again. THIS time she is gonna win with the great help of the Greens. 🙂

    I know I’m jumping the gun but hey don’t I always? 😀

  97. Bill McLean says:

    Duncan Hothersall is an embarrassment to the good name Labour used to have for a wee while, He is simply a British Nationalist pretending to care for the people. Absolute rubbish! Surely even someone as dim as he is can see that the best for people in Scotland and rUK is for Scotland to become independent and thus shake up the politics of the rump. Duncan may not be dim but he appears to be with the rubbish he pumps out on a regular basis and can he enlighten us as to when there will ever be a socialist government at class ridden establishment schmoozing Westminster?

  98. David says:

    Could Corbyn be about to turn it all around again? He was the token left outsider who somewhat reluctantly stood for the labour leadership. He only stood because some of his detractors nominated him as they felt the left of the party needed to be represented in the leadership election. Then they tried to get rid of him and he scored an even bigger victory.

    So could the following happen?

    The LibDems ask for the antibrexit vote and steal millions of votes from the Tories.

    The SNP, already now definitely the anti brexit of choice in Scotland, achieve a similar result to 2015 north of the border.

    The diehard Labour vote holds up in England and Wales much better than expected.

    The pro EU politicians in N Ireland also do well in the GE.

    Corbyn becomes PM of a coalition government, of Lab, Snp, LibDem, Sinn Fein?, etc, that negotiates a soft brexit that the UK can only sign up to if the voters agree to it in a new EU referendum.

    I don’t know that I strongly believe this but I’m not going to rule it out completely.

  99. Richardinho says:

    “Assuming the UK does Brexit, I don’t see anyway that Scotland wont be part of said Brexit”

    That’s a pretty silly thing to say on a website dedicated to Scottish independence.

  100. Grendel says:

    SNP to abstain? What’s the point in that. If we want a party who abstains on our behalf, we vote Labour.

  101. TheWasp says:

    Labour walloper on daily politics rules out working with SNP in coalition or arrangement, as they “couldn’t work with THOSE people”.

    Death warrant signed, bye bye red tories

  102. HandandShrimp says:

    I don’t understand the Labour position on this but then I don’t really get Labour’s position on a fair few issues these days.

    That said if the Liberals take back a few of their seats in the SW of England and Labour don’t implode May might still win but could actually be in a weaker position than now…an interesting long shot from Jeremy if that is his thinking.

  103. Valerie says:


    What are you chanting about?

    To be clear, I despise Labour, but mentioned Clive Lewis because he has been touted.

    It does you no credit to spout shite about the man. He has often gone against party lines, on nuclear, and resigned his cabinet post over Brexit. He has spoken out over Yemen and sale of arms.

    It’s a stretch to blame him for the migration crisis.

    I’m all for calling out any politician, but not spreading unfounded muck.

  104. Vestas says:

    shiregirl 11:58 am :

    “Did I hear right on BBC…

    Dan Hodges (‘Labour commentator’) wants rid off Jeremy Corbyn so much, he would vote tory to rid him.


    I need someone to explain this. I accept JC isn’t everyone’s cuppa, but to vote against the party and vote tory just to rid him?”

    Dan Hodges is a tory even by Labour standards. He’s spent the last decade writing bile for the Torygraph & appears to have been moved on to the racists choice – the Daily Mail.

    He is despised by both red and blue tories – Labour think he’s a ("Tractor" - Ed), tories think he’s a fool who’ll say anything for his 30 pieces of silver.

    In short he’s the English equivalent of Ian S Smart – a deeply unpleasant character. He’ll fit right in at the Daily Hate…..

  105. Bob Mack says:

    @ Sensibledave.

    Income tax rates are not an example. The SNP can only timber with thresholds. Secondly 62% of the population of my country Scotland ( not England) wish to remain in the EU. You look at the situation from your own partisan view I suppose.

  106. Robert Graham says:

    What has corbyn to gain ? ,the prospect of his party being wiped off the map by the tories in england .
    hasn’t he noticed the CPS are not finished with twenty of Mayhems MPs and if charged could be jailed .
    Now is not the time should have been the reply , short and simple .

  107. Nana says:


    Not sure what has already been posted but thought you might like to see the following.

    Nicola in London
    see here

    Dennis Skinner on the tory fraud
    see here

    Richard J Murphy at the Finance and Constitution Committee (Part 1)
    Watch here

  108. Calum McKay says:

    There is an old country and western lyric that reminds nds me of labour:

    “There’s no use running down the wrong road”!

    labour have been running down the wrong road for years!

    Sad point is, labours’ fixation with the union has seen Scotland on this right wing tory austerity road.
    Hope is, labour voters will see labour for what they are, a waste of space!

  109. mike cassidy says:

    Vestas 1.02

    And Ian Smart’s response to a possible GE is to become obsessed with its effect on the minutiae of parliamentary procedure as it applies to the date of the next Holyrood election.

    and the implications for when any indyref2 could be held.

  110. Artyhetty says:

    The SNP are right to abstain. This is about the tory party, who do not represent Scotland, and have, a 800 votes majority, (!) with just one Scottish tory MP in WM. To vote for it is obviously out of the question, but to abstain makes sense. The Labour party are the ones who could put the spanner in the works but will choose to go along with their tory pals. It shows them up for what they are to the english electorate.

  111. Ken500 says:

    Clive Lewis served in Alfganistan and supports nuclear.

  112. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    What an omnishambles. Those of you who still entertain any hopes of Labour are in for a shock, I fear, including in England. Their defeatism is almost palpable. The LibDems may get a few wins on the strength of their anti-Brexit stance but nothing like enough to make any difference whatever. The UK is being hustled by a rabid right wing press into a new dark age. This is only the start.

    We just have to get out of this, and the sooner the better.

  113. Wulls says:

    Open goal. No keeper.
    Quite how it is possible for labour to miss will be a talking point for years to come.
    I am just sure they will.

  114. Dr Jim says:

    Trolls are funny though eh, they always try to start out as if they’re reasonable people but end up wagging their fingers at us and condescendingly telling us what we need to understand in the way that they somehow have divine and rightful knowledge and are taking their more important time to impart to us lesser mortals of very limited understanding the need to comply

    Or we’re saboteurs or scum or tractors or some other shouty abusive phrase they read in the Daily Heil
    Coz they just can’t help themselves reverting to type

    I suppose they would say the same of us except for one thing, I’ve never ever met anyone in the Independence campaign who defends lies from any political party

    And that’s the difference between them and us, while we’re looking for the truth to be uncovered they’re building bigger walls of lies to obscure it

  115. Breeks says:

    I think a big unknown is what happens to the UK Remain vote.

    You also get the expectation that a doughty Labour Party would seize a Tory government when its on the ropes, fix it with a grim headlock and bring it to its knees, and rescue the UK from Brexit, …but then you look at the Labour front benches, and they look like the meek who have consigned themselves to inheriting the Earth after Brexit.

    Tim Farron sees Brexit as his pot of gold for electoral success, but I don’t know. I just cannot see the Tory Remainers who might have backed a Ken Clarke or Tarzan led breakaway faction joining forces with Farron. Farron is maybe not the Court Jester, that’s Boris of course, but maybe the Courts travelling minstrel, a man passing through. Farron is the poor man’s Nick Clegg, and Nick Clegg was the poor man’s useful idiot who sang songs for David Cameron. Its all very untidy with too many uncomfortable bedfellows, and yet, the Remain vote needs to go to somebody.

    Might the SNP at Westminster steady the ship of a revitalised Remain camp, and provide at least a narrow consensus of staying in Europe? Hmmm. Don’t see it. Getting your way is one thing for the SNP, getting the whole Brexit for England kit and caboodle is a toxic swamp that even Shrek wouldn’t fancy.

    But strangely I can see a hung parliament are readily as a Tory landslide, particularly if the Tories fracture into Brexiteers, UKippers, and Remainers, with the SNP and Liberal Democrats PERHAPS holding enough seats to form a minority administration, but then, who in their right mind would want to inherit the Tory dog’s breakfast of Brexit? What of Labour? Well, who is there left to care about Labour?

    Maybe we should all rally behind a Ruth Harrison grassroots campaign. “Hey Ruth. I’m err.. a closet Tory, and thought you were great on TV backing Remain. If only someone like you would seize the day and challenge Theresa May for Tory Leadership and save us all from Brexit”. Go on Ruthie, you know you want to. Think of it Ruthie, the roar of the grease paint and smell of the crowd; there’s a swamp with your name on it Lady Shrek.

    Whatever is going to happen, it’s got a short time frame to happen in, with Council elections right in the middle.

    I don’t blame Thereasa May for ducking out TV debates. I would hate to see a grown Prime Minister cry too.

  116. North chiel says:

    K1 @ 1217 pm , ” what does the establishment gain from the act of crushing
    Labour”. ?
    The reinstatement of the unionist ( ” red Tory” ) reserve government. As and until Corbyn resigns and the right wing “Blairites” control and lead the Labour Party then the establishment and their
    media will never consider to support anything other than the Tory ( 1st team), to rule from Westminster. Over the decades, when the first team requires a break, the reserve team are
    ” put into bat” and so it goes on . The last genuine social democratic government was under Harold Wilson. Michael Foot was too ” left wing” and the establishment media quickly ” put the boot” into him . In recent times it’s Neo Liberalism all the way and the Tory ” 1st team” will remain in power as and until a ” suitable 2nd team” is in place ( to give them a break). This is basically how the Westminster system works ( hand in hand with their media) .The fault line is because Scottish people by nature are ” social democratic in outlook ( thankfully).

  117. call me dave says:


    Brilliant link to Murphy’s Law and CRAP…GERS. Nana. 🙂

    Welcome back.

  118. chris kilby says:

    Why not? Labour meekly went along with the Tories’ last cynical ploy to destroy them in Scotland: Better Together.

  119. Arbroath1320 says:

    Is it me or does anyone else think Scruffy Fluffy has finally realised his days as an M.P. are numbered in DAYS?

  120. galamcennalath says:

    A slogan …

    “Make this our last Westminster election ever!”

  121. Swami Backverandah says:

    Labour fancy their chances in 2022, when rUk will be well and truly mired in the massive economic downturn of Tory clusterfuck, more than in 2020, when the full horror will still have yet to be fully unfurled. It’s nothing to do with Corbyn.

  122. Ian says:

    I thought that the visible absence of a tory representative at the 2014 referendum TV debates was weird. No representative of the current UK government other than the party in opposition. Beyond weird really.

    Now May also refuses to ‘debate’ with the other party leaders on TV. At the very least the other parties could have said ‘no tv debate, no vote for an election’. But no, they can’t even use what power they have. No wonder that they are treated with such open contempt. The UK becomes more pathetic every day.

    Hopefully enough voters in Scotland are tired of the petulance and deluded arrogance from the main UK parties and vote accordingly in May and June.

  123. Swami Backverandah says:

    “WTF am i meant to do in this election? In Bath it’s a two-horse race between the Tories and these guys:”

    Vote with your feet and move to Scotland 😀

    *ducks hammers*

  124. bugsbunny says:

    Ruth Davidson would want to go that way. She always wanted to be hung like a man.

  125. Robert Peffers says:

    Just to say it is great to see Nana back again. Her hard work was greatly missed.

    Also for those interested in the GERS figures link, here is a link to the Holyrood TV coverage of the committee meeting:-

  126. Marie Clark says:

    Welcome back to the MT, your links are always very informative.

    Now you take things easy and don’t overdo it until you are a bit stronger.

  127. Fred says:

    @ Boris, every pensioner should read that!

  128. Arbroath1320 says:

    As the inglorious Coward of the Country will not be attending TV debates I believe I have found a late replacement for her.

  129. Nana says:

    @call me dave

    Report from the meeting to be published on the 24th, should be interesting.

    You can watch the meeting on parly tv. Look for Finance and Constitution Committee

  130. Macart says:


    Hope you’re feeling better Nana. 🙂

  131. call me dave says:


    I have a look at the Parli tv at Holyrood and WM but have sickened myself lately with the politics glass half empty me.

    Still YES though that will never change.


    I would like Mundell to be ousted but the Green vote coming across is not enough if the Unionist lab voters boak and vote with the Tories. 🙁

    Think he did say ‘leadership pitch’ on the Cooper thing. 🙁

  132. sensibledave says:

    Richardinho 12:55 pm

    I wrote: “UK does Brexit, I don’t see anyway that Scotland wont be part of said Brexit”

    You wrote “That’s a pretty silly thing to say on a website dedicated to Scottish independence.”

    Keep up Richardinho!

    Assuming that the UK does Brexit in the next couple of years then, almost no matter what, Scotland will BRexit because it will still be part of the UK by then.

  133. arthur thomson says:

    Corbyn is simply thick.

  134. winifred mccartney says:

    Corbyn if he votes for an early election will be proved to be the tories little helper and keep them in power for next 5 years with no hope of defeating them on anything. As said above the answer from labour should have been ‘now is not the time’ and watch the electoral frauders jailed and the majority disappear.

    Great to hear from you Nana – hope you keep well.

  135. If the Tories make the election in Scotland about Indy ref 2 and lose as no doubt they will, this could strengthen Nicola Sturgeon’s hand. If Labour lose heavily I reckon many Scottish Labour supporters sickened by 5 more years of Tory rule from London will support Indy Ref 2 and a Yes vote.

  136. Scott Shaw says:

    It seems that Turkeys do vote for Christmas. Nearly all the tories of all hues voted for xmas, 13 against.

  137. Valerie says:


    Maybe you can go on Wiki and alter Clive Lewis profile then, as you know more.

    He served 3 months and came back with depression. He voted against nuclear.

  138. My concern for this up coming general election is, we may lose some good SNP MPs, if labour voters vote tactically for the Tories and Libdems to keep the SNP out.

    By the way I still haven’t had anything from the Tories or Libdems in the Methil,Buckhaven & Wemyss vilages ward 22 here in Fife.

    But then that’s no surprise as they have no real presence locally and treat the people with utter contempt as they only put up paper candidates who never show face.

  139. Thepnr says:

    I can’t figure out Labours thinking behind this either, with a 20% lead over Labour I don’t think there’s much chance of a hung parliament and apparently Labour won’t work with “those people” the SNP anyway as pointed out earlier.

    It has to be as others have suggested, that even if Corbyn wanted to follow a different path I think so many of has party would have disregarded him and voted with the Tories anyway.

    So come June and now confirmed we will have a GE and no doubt new Leaders of the Red Tories in Scotland & England right after the result is known.

  140. Valerie says:

    Oh, one Labour man with a brain, he voted against HIS PARTY, ken500, against a General Election.

    What a bunch of turkeys.

  141. starlaw says:

    best ground to fight the GE would be the welfare state. Yoons will do our Indy work for us.
    Could pull in pensioners vote specially if they think their Bus Passes or pensions could be cut.

  142. Proud Cybernat says:

    Paxman: “Are you thick?”

    Corbyn: “Hell yes!”

  143. Bob Mack says:

    So ends the total evisceration of Labour.
    They, even with the inevitable new leader will take many years to return to electability.

    OK .Straight fight between us indy supporters and the Tories in Scotland.

  144. Brian McHugh says:

    The SNP are going to need to get busy nominating candidates for all those English constituencies.

  145. laukat says:

    Whilst it looks like the Greens may stand aside in Fluffy Mundell’s seat to allow the SNP a clear challenge would it not be better to go with an Independent candidate such as Denis Canavan who could stand on a pro-eu/proindy/anti-tory platform?

  146. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Quite ‘funny’ to remember people of my parents generation banging on about how the Unions ‘held the country to ransom’ when you see the antics of these selfish WM bastards.

  147. Thepnr says:

    I see Michelle Thomson and Natalie McGarry were two of the thirteen to vote against another General Election. Interesting.

  148. Jack Murphy says:

    For Newbies and Latecomers:
    Tommy Sheppard MP for Edinburgh East in the Commons today,tears into the Tory’s Snap General Election/Brexit Shenanigans.

    Parliament TV
    Right scroll to 14:19:41

  149. Quentin Quale says:

    Fed up with abstaining on everything and allowing Tory policy to get passed, Labour finally admit they are on the side of the Tories by voting with them.

  150. asklair says:

    Gut feeling it’s not going in our direction.
    After the local election, things will become clearer.
    UK is becoming a great place to live if you have money and good health. Do not fall ill or get into financial difficulties, and never get old.

  151. Thepnr says:

    Regarding Natilie McGarry, one of these two stories is wrong. STV has McGarry taken to hospital after fainting during PMQ. The Evening Times has her voting against another GE?

    Can’t trust anything you read, as Legerwood pointed out earlier Nicola Sturgeon went to London last night and not early this morning which was stated on Politics Home earlier and that I linked to.

    The media are more useless than even Labour.

  152. call me dave says:

    Ian Murray MP… pending!

    Just filled in my single line Political Bingo Card.

    ie: 1979 and all that. TICK!

    Still he’s got his UJ suit to keep him warm as he goes job hunting.

  153. shug says:

    The SNP should put up candidates in Northern England and call for redrawing the border. It would cause such frothing it could make the whole election enjoyable

  154. North chiel says:

    Peter McCulloch @ 0300 pm. Peter, if you have a look online at the 2015 election results in Scotland, you will see that in the vast majority of constituencies, the SNP have huge leads over Labour in second place with the Tories usually 3rd or 4th with a fraction of the SNP vote . There is more chance of Teresa May becoming leader of the European Union than the Tories winning even a handfull of seats in Scotland.
    Don’t worry on that score Peter.

  155. Gfaetheblock says:

    Mcgarry and Thomson may be desperate to keep their £70k salaries and expenses, but this does not look good for them. At least it shows that they are making decisions independent of the SNP whip.

  156. heedtracker says:

    Gfaetheblock says:
    19 April, 2017 at 3:53 pm
    Mcgarry and Thomson may be desperate to keep their £70k salaries and expenses, but this does not look good for them. At least it shows that they are making decisions independent of the SNP whip.

    Why is it not a good look?

  157. Scott Shaw says:

    Shug, I was thinking exactly the same thing. Do it on a ticket of reuniting the north of England down to the wall back to Scotland as it should be.

  158. Thepnr says:

    This piece by Brian Monteith today shows how the gullible are manipulated by what they read, truly horrendous guff.

    I’ve haven’t read anything like this in quite a while. Seriously bad.

  159. Robert Graham says:

    The bbc helpful as ever with the results of the vote Re the proposed general election , this just by chance lets them mention natalie McGarry & Michelle Thomson just to give us a clear unbiased appraisal of the situation Aye feckin right , as i understand it Michelle Thomson hasn’t been charged with anything so why does it merit comment ?
    The BBC as usual approach any story involving the SNP with their own twisted agenda .

  160. Jack Murphy says:

    HEADLINE BBC on-line UK-wide from London:
    “Snap election approved by MPs”.

    HEADLINE from BBC Scotland on-line.
    “SNP MPs abstain as early election backed.
    SNP MPs abstain as the House of Commons overwhelmingly back the PM’s plan for snap general election”.

    Same but very different emphasis for North Briton readers.

    Expect similar from BBC Reporting Scotland TV tonight—if there’s anyone left watching it.

  161. Bob Mack says:

    McGarry is pregnant. Fainted during PMQ”s. Seen by medical staff. I doubt she actually voted at all.

  162. Tinto Chiel says:

    Mr Bateman clarifies his thinking:

    Amen to all that.

  163. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    I can’t help but shake the feeling that UKGE is a complete unwanted distraction for us. Just another chance for the London-centric to gloat over us (whenever they can bother to spare us any attention at all, that is).

    But there may be an upside nevertheless. Some Labourites in Scotland have been clinging on in the hope that 2020 would provide a change in fortune, but that hope is surely going to turn to dust in a mere months’ time. What then?

    Maybe they’ll now finally see what we have already long seen. And alt-media propagandists like Hothersall will be revealed for the London establishment shills they have always been.

  164. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Tinto Chiel @ 16:34,

    Thanks for that update. That’s been my view also as from yesterday.

    There must definitely be a hardening of the SNP stance now. A clear committment to indy in the manifesto, so no-one can dismiss the results, try as they might (which of course predictably they will).

  165. Legerwood says:

    It would appear from reports in the Guardian that quite a few Labour MPS are not going to stand in this election. For example, Alan Johnston.

    Therefore as well as having to find 59 candidates to contest seats in Scotland Labour is also going to find quite a few in England to contest those now vacant seats.

  166. Susan Macdiarmid says:

    Perhaps Jeremy Corbyn read this:

    “Secondly, assuming it goes ahead, May has nothing to gain and everything to lose. Under the UK’s electoral system, there are very few likely Tory gains from Labour or the SNP, and the Lib Dems have almost no seats for the Tories to take. Labour are already close to rock bottom under FPTP – what seats they still hold are safe ones.”

  167. schrodingers cat says:

    shug says:

    The SNP should put up candidates in Northern England and call for redrawing the border. It would cause such frothing it could make the whole election enjoyable
    if they wont, stand candidates in northumbria under the SNNP banner, same logo etc, the yoons be like busta blood vessel


    Tinto Chiel , i think i get where derek is coming from, we can no longer pretend to be anything other than the independence party, i agree. those times are past, snp should now be full on independence

    Robert J. Sutherland, agreed, labour voters in scotland are staring at an extinction event, there will be no new dawn for them. I cant see them being motivated to get out and vote labour. good, this will increase the snps over all % of the vote

  168. Well most opinions are in agreement its a stitch up done on Labour,but surely the wee devil in us all would just love Jeremy Corbyn surprise us all and pull it off and win a small majority,and screw the Tories.I just love the thought of it happening.Next of my daydream is Labour losing its small majority,Scotland having 59 SNP MP,s,and bailing them out for a price.Ah I could fall asleep dreaming of this.Still back to the business in hand watch out if you have a Dalmatian puppy,keep it on a short lead especially if in central London,I drift again.There must be more than just the one reason for her squirming out of the fixed parliament act,not just the 30 or so Tory cheats(there must be 330 of them at least half of them not crooks?)not just because she is 20 points ahead in the polls.Not because Labour is at its weakest not just those three things,I’m sure there is more really dirty laundry which of course we wont find out about until much later in the year.

  169. Albert Herring says:

    “The SNP should put up candidates in Northern England and call for redrawing the border. It would cause such frothing it could make the whole election enjoyable”

    They could do a yoon and stand as “English SNP”.

  170. Brian Powell says:

    So, on B Monteith in the Scotsman, if a loss of an SNP MP means lessening the case for a referendum, the massive loss of Lab and LibDem MPs must have meant what for Labour and the LibDems?

  171. schrodingers cat says:

    North chiel says:
    19 April, 2017 at 3:49 pm

    Peter McCulloch @ 0300 pm. Peter, if you have a look online at the 2015 election results in Scotland, you will see that in the vast majority of constituencies,

    true, but in about 10 seats the snp dont, some have majorities of less than 500-1000.

    the lack of snp supporters gotv in 2016, let 7-8 of these areas slip into the unionists hands, eg NEF

    we should make a point of targeting theses seat, the yoons definately will

  172. Meg merrilees says:

    Unbelievable – the labour party could have had the tories on the wire today.
    If they had voted down the GE May would most likely have resigned.

    How history pivots on a simple wrong decision. This is an incredible error from Corbyn.

    Two things we must not lose sight of:

    Scotland already has her mandate for Independence – that was voted on in Holyrood a few weeks ago, just as Article 50 was triggered.
    Nicola is still waiting for a reply from the PM.

    GE 17 cannot be a reflection of our views on Independence if the vote is not given to 16-17 year olds.
    Caroline Lucas asked for this to be considered this afternoon.
    16-17 year olds are approx.72% in favour of Independence so without their votes, the figures will be lower than actuality.

    We can learn from our history.
    The Bruce planned where and when he would fight his enemy at Bannockburn and although greatly outnumbered, we were victorious. They were made to fight on our terms and this is the key to winning GE17 and Indy.

    Andy Murray wins much easier and faster when he attacks rather than playing defensively.

    The Tories are the nasty party so it will not be easy or clean but we have to go on ‘attack mode’. We saw that in WM this afternoon from our MP’s and we have to continue where they left off. We’ve been here before and we can do it again…

    “for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom.”

  173. Mike says:

    I think this is further proof that Corbyn is actually a hard brexiteer.
    Its the only thing that makes sense.

  174. Iain More says:

    May handed Labour a knotted rope and they stuck their own necks in it and even kicked away the stool. To think that the clunking fist will have been Labours last PM of the UK or even the rUK. I can only say rot in hell Labour.

  175. Brian Powell says:

    schrodingers cat

    The SNP vote in NE Fife in 2016 increased by 400 to 11400. The constituency for Holyrood is different than for Westminster, excluding towns like Leven.

  176. Cadogan Enright says:

    If there are any Scottish Greens reading this then a bit of help would help here in Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk too,_Roxburgh_and_Selkirk_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

    Edinburgh South would be a help as well, reducing the gap to a manageable 600 votes

  177. heedtracker says:

    Swinging around yoon culture online, it looks like SNP losing even one Westminster MP, will mean Scotland does not want independence, let alone indy ref2.

    Its that mad in yoon world now.

    Then there’s SLabour oddities like,

    Scott Arthur?

    1979 – The SNP vote down Labour to usher in Thatcher.
    2017 – The SNP abstain when they have a chance to end Tory rule.

    This dudes standing for election as SLab councilor too I think.

  178. Hamish100 says:

    Still waiting for Gordon Brown to parade up and down with placard waving acolytes saying SNP fault SNP fault.

    Look forward to see Davidson in front of the public explaining the Tories performance in England in the NHS, schools foreign affaires and of course penalising the disable and infirm oh nearly forgot as she has been hiding her support of the disgraced policy re the rape victims.

    Just heard the Tories are fighting against centralisation!! Have they never heard of Independence?

  179. TheWasp says:

    On 5 live now Mays speech in Bolton. SNPbad, stronger, stable, SNPbad, stronger, stable continue ad nausiam

  180. galamcennalath says:

    It is absolutely sickening that whatever the result of this totally undemocratic Westminster election one thing is certain – most voters will have rejected the government which will take over.

    The Tories got 36.1% of votes in 2015. 63.9% of voters didn’t want them. Pathetic.

    If May et al wins, they will have no mandate by the standards which apply in normal countries across Europe. The UK is an anomaly with its ancient undemocratic FPTP system.

  181. Training Day says:

    Helpful cut out and keep guide on how to defeat the SNP in key constituencies provided by ‘Scottish’ television news there. File under ‘who is best placed unionist’.

    What a pile of shits our MSM ‘journalists’ are.

  182. ronnie anderson says:

    Ah wiz working oan ah Pie chart tae quantify Labours stupidity but ah hit the buffers, ah canny fit Mars in the comment box.

  183. Gfaetheblock says:


    It does not look good because:

    1. Despite protesting their innocence, they do not follow the SNP whip
    2. Despite protesting their innocence, their actions suggest that they know that they have no support from the party, hence point 1
    3. It could be interpreted that they are most concerned about preserving their income, which since both have accusations of financial impropriety handing over them, does not look good
    4. Irrespective of if the above is the case, they do not have the wit to understand that their actions can and probably be perceived that way

    That is how I think it looks, and I do not think that looks good for the two ladies, or the SNP.

    Do you read it differently?

  184. yesindyref2 says:

    OT – defence update!
    First, the contract for the 6th Astute (of 7) signed, about time too. Nuke powered but not nuke missile. HMS Ocean (helo carrier) is apparently up for sale to Brazil at £80 million. And it looks like the QE carrier will deploy in 2021 with 1 squadron of F35-B and perhaps one squadron from the USMC. Also though a good complement of helicopters, including 820 Sqn with 9 Merlin Mk2 for anti-sub and 4 or 5 for AEW (Airborne Early Warning). Personally I think that’s fine, better to have 2 superlative world class big carriers for 30 odd years, with limited planes to start with (24 F35-B planned by 2023), than 2 inferior too small carriers – considering the role the UK wants to play in the world. But both operational, not one mothballed or sold off. The QE could deploy in 2020 in an emergency, but not recommended.

    Now, of great interest to me is that Merlin Mk2, a very capable anti-sub, recently upgraded from the Mk1. Something even though expensive, the Scottish Navy would want perhaps 5 or 6 of. They can go on the T45, T23/T26 and even the batch 2 OPV though it doesn’t have a hangar – which is perhaps no disavantage for the inshore 200nm EEZ use we’d have for them. Also land-based of course, the likes of Lossiemouth. So basically speaking the Merlin or equivalent is on my shopping list.

  185. cearc says:

    Should definitely stand candidates in every constituency that is north or part-north of Hadrian’s wall.

    That might stop the repeated, ‘Rebuild Hadrian’s Wall’, cry and provide a great service to english voters by educating them to the whereabouts of their border!

  186. Richardinho says:

    I wouldn’t put too much focus on dethroning David Mundell. Even if successful, it’s likely that the Tories will win at least 1 other seat in Scotland (possibly Roxburgh and Berwickshire) and that individual will be just as obnoxious (being a Tory after all). I think every seat will be a hard fight for the SNP and none should be taken for granted.

  187. heedtracker says:

    Gfaetheblock says:
    19 April, 2017 at 6:20 pm

    That’s all very smeary. Dob enough shit and see what sticks basically.

    Might work. SNP could lose them this time. What about the rest?

  188. North chiel says:

    Re Schrödinger’s cat @ 0524pm . Can see only 1 seat where
    SNP majority is under 1000 :
    Berwick Roxburgh& Peebles man 428 over cons
    East Dunbartonshire man. 2167 over Libdems
    Can only see another 4 seats with majorities under 5000 :
    Caithness Sutherland& Easter Ross SNP maj over Libdems 3844
    East Renfrewshire SNP maj over Lab 3720
    Edinburgh West Michelle Thompson maj over Libdems 3210 ( special circumstances here)
    North East Fife SNP maj over Libdems 4344 ( however Stephen Gettins has done an outstanding job at Westminster . Surely will hold this?)
    Possibly Dumfries & Galloway SNP maj over Cons 6514 could be vulnerable to Labour switch to Tories?
    There are 2 ” unionist seats” vulnerable to the SNP

  189. Tinto Chiel says:

    Robert J Sutherland and Cat: yes, I’m hoping the manifesto will be carefully but clearly worded to be lawyer-proof and will make a commitment to independence quite explicit.

    Getting really cheesed off with the desperate Yoon “Lose any SNP WM seats and you’ve no mandate” havers.

    Seven weeks of this to come, rewound and repeated ad nauseam.

  190. DerekM says:

    @ Gfaetheblock

    So after all that bullshit you come on here and ask about the 2 ex SNP MP`s and how they voted independently.

    You do know how a parliamentary party whip operates yes.

    So if they had followed the SNP whip would you now be saying they were coerced into voting with a parliamentary whip from a political party they no longer represent.

    Give yourself a shake laddie might loosen the cobwebs inside your brain or at least learn how a parliament works before uttering complete bollocks.

  191. Proud Cybernat says:

    “Getting really cheesed off with the desperate Yoon “Lose any SNP WM seats and you’ve no mandate” havers.”

    It’s pish and they damn well know it’s pish. And the Scottish electorate know it’s pish too.

    The fools can delude themselves into believing their own steaming keech if they want to but back here on planet Earth we all understand that when your side gets at least 1 more than the other lot, THAT IS A MAJORITY AND A VICTORY.

    Pile o’ smelly pants, them Yoons.

    BTW – will ‘Yoon’ be nominated this year for the OED new word of the year?

  192. manandboy says:

    Theresa May announces Sir Lynton Crosby as her campaign manager for GE17 on June 8.

    Wasn’t Theresa lucky that Sir Lynton was free at such short notice.

  193. James Barr Gardner says:

    Mike says:
    19 April, 2017 at 5:38 pm
    I think this is further proof that Corbyn is actually a hard brexiteer.
    Its the only thing that makes sense.

    It’s either that or he is a long term MI6 mole ? Remember the City of London elite always, always play the long game!

  194. Betty Boop says:

    @ starlaw, 10:53am

    Tory Labour both the same. State always comes first, Labour have no wish to defeat the Tories on matters of State.

    You got it in two lines! I’ll give the answer in one word, Establishment.

  195. galamcennalath says:

    Macart says:

    Lesley Riddoch telling it like it is.

    Always excellent. She should front the next Yes campaign. Media skilled, independent of the SNP, knows her stuff, perfect. And a ‘new Scot’ ! 🙂

  196. Dorothy Devine says:

    I too watched in amazement as the STV team told the world how to defeat the SNP , even gave the various seats where they might be unseated.

    Quite astonishing that they have the cheek to call themselves Scottish television , yet preach against one party and those who would prefer independence.

    As for their evening programme , well I will give it a miss forever , I look forward to it being pulled when no audience can be found.

    To add insult to injury the entire debacle was followed by Oor Wullie giving us the Honest Joe ,slow speaking drivel for which he is renowned.

    STV – keep you news app!

  197. Robert Graham says:

    Michelle Thomson has not been charged with any offence and this despite the smear campaign mounted against her , that was meant as an attack on the SNP ,The BMSM doesn’t need any assistance in spreading shite , please don’t give them any assistance .

  198. Dorothy Devine says:

    P.S I see a dinosaur is going to stand for the Tory Party – Ken Clarke.

    Now he is only 5 years older than me but he ‘erms’and ‘aaahs’
    to such an extent when he talks that he drives me to drink – I suppose I should appreciate and enjoy that.

  199. HandandShrimp says:

    It will be interesting to see what Dr Von Scott and Ian Murray say on the 9th of May if the polls are correct and Labour crash and burn and hand May a huge 5 year majority. Who then will have ushered in an era of Tory doom?…and make no mistake it will be doom.

    Given how useless Murray thinks Corbyn is he seems very keen put it all to the test. Or is this just the fast track to get rid of Corbyn?

  200. Gfaetheblock says:


    It is a shame that you think my opinion is ‘complete bollocks’, but I fully well know how parliament works and surprised that if there was a positive relationship between thomson and mcgarry and the party, that they did not follow the party line. Esp. Thomson, who there has been some fairly positive vibes to from the Westminster parliamentary party.

    Thomson is my MP and I have ask her is she is seeking reelection, but she has yet to respond. If these MPs had the support and backing of the party, then the SNP could allow them to stand unopposed and bring them back into the fold once exonerated. Is this ‘complete bollocks’ as well?

  201. yerkitbreeks says:

    If you read ” The Hangman’s Tale ” you’ll realise that the fastest cell – drop interval was less than four seconds with Pierrepoint in charge.

    Probably the time Cambridge Analytica takes to round up our social media data to work out if we’re worth contacting.

  202. Lenny Hartley says:

    FFS ch4 news in the borders , reporter asks some snp guy, surely if the SNP get less than 56 seats then they don’t have a mandate for an Indy Referendum, and the so called SNP Clown agrees with him! These idiots should not be allowed near a TV camera or radio mike.

  203. Thepnr says:


    “Or is this just the fast track to get rid of Corbyn?”

    Haha take it that’s you having a wee jest Mr Shrimp 🙂

  204. Cactus says:

    SO the triggering of Article 50 happened on the 29th March 2017.

    Which makes it exactly 3 weeks as of today.

    1 week is a lang time in politics
    2 weeks is a generation in politics
    3 weeks is a lifetime in politics

    SO after what you’ve seen and heard these past 21 days Scotland…

    Any change of thought yet you undecided no leavers?

    Do you need another couple of weeks?

    Vote Yes!
    Stay Sane.

  205. Nana says:

    @Robert Peffers 2.13pm

    Thanks Robert, it’s good to be back.


    I’m getting there Sam, slow but sure.

    @call me dave

    I watched the Mundell clip a few times, I also think he said “leadership pitch”

    but he is still a useless so and so

    It’s a UK election says David Mundell. Tories will ignore Scottish result. I’d say that constitutes a major gaffe.

    video here

    and again

    Hannah asked @DavidMundellDCT to save Livingston #HMRC jobs as a last act of kindness while he still has his seat.

    video here

  206. Cactus says:

    Remain sane.

    It’s got to be…


  207. Thepnr says:

    I think most that post here on Wings are rightly critical in the belief that the SNP do not play hardball enough and that at times there is too much pussyfooting around.

    Is this criticism really justified though if you yourself are prone to pussyfooting around? Ask yourself how willing you are to bring up the subject of Independence with anyone that is not family.

    If your like me then there won’t be that many, there’s a very good reason of course for that, we don’t want to fall out with friends or strangers, we don’t want to be “divisive” as Ruth loves to say we are. No in the main we mainly just want to get along with all we meet and live among.

    I think that has to change though and in a big way, just as we are demanding of the SNP to get tougher I think so too must we.

    Wear our hearts on our sleeves from here on in, make it perfectly clear everyday what side of the fence you sit on.

    Talk to strangers you might meet about Independence when the opportunity presents itself. Let’s be a Hundred times more visible than we were last time. I hope I don’t sound harsh I know YES were much more visible than anything else but that was usually only at the various gatherings.

    We have to be visible every single day as many were of course but the vast majority weren’t as visible as they could have been, including me.

    I support Scottish Independence. Loud and Proud and I won’t let anyone forget it.

  208. Meg merrilees says:

    Kezia needs to found a whole lot of new candidates. With a bit of luck maybe Jacquie Baillie, Ken Mc Intosh and James Kelly will stand for WM. Any others we’d like to send to the other place?

    Delighted that Nicola went to London – good strategic move. Couldn’t fail to put her on the TV news then.

  209. Legerwood says:

    Lenny Hartley @ 7.34 pm

    You misrepresent what the SNP supporter said by only mentioning part of his answer. He made it very clear that the SNP was not going to lose any seats and we’re not going to lose that particular seat based on what he had been hearing on the streets.

    Here is the link to the item if people want to watch it for themselves. About 1.30 might in

    Criticism would be better directed at the reporter and his assertion that the GE is going to be a referendum on having a referendum then quoting Theresa May’said article in the Scotsman.

  210. James Barr Gardner says:

    SLAB will be finished after June’17, there is no way back for them, their MSPs will wither on the vine. They’ve taken the Scottish voter for granted and still do so incredulously considering how incompetent they are, Scots are canny and their sick to teeth with SLAB’s pretense as a working class party. Their legacy of deceit will last longer than Thatcher’s.

    As for the so called Scottish Press they too will soon be finished, folk might buy a paper for the football but that does not mean they believe the rest of the paper is truth,unbiased,fair or even up to date compared to what’s on offer on the Web. Today’s Scottish voter are more politically savvy than ever before. Stop buying MSM papers even if it’s only till the 9th of June, why give London your hard earned cash to be patronized, lied to by this scum, remember they were the phone hackers.

    The BBC is the propaganda organ of the City of Westminster, it always has been but now it does not even bother with the pretense of being unbiased or fair. They no longer give any thought to the jingoistic garbage that’s pumped out daily, journalistic standards falling year on year, it’s their London centric mindset run on distilled arrogance and hatred of anything that is not english. Just remember you give them money, for them to lie to you.

    May 4th & June 8th is your chance to exert your view of the collective corrupt City of London or it’s short name Cesspit !

    As for voter exhaustion those clowns down there don’t realise we’re just getting our second wind along with a wee adrenaline kick.

    Meantime VOTE INDY, VOTE SCOTLAND, VOTE FUTURE. The SNP & NICOLA your’re playing a blinder for SCOTLAND.

  211. Legerwood says:

    Meg merrilees says:
    19 April, 2017 at 8:23 pm

    “”Delighted that Nicola went to London – good strategic move. Couldn’t fail to put her on the TV news then.””

    It was completely fortuitous that Ms Sturgeon was in London. She had an engagement in London on Tuesday so clearly stayed over due to the announcement.

    I am sure if Mrs May had known she would have delayed the announcement ?

    It was priceless on Reporting Scotland news tonight when the reporter was walking along giving his piece to camera while Ms Sturgeon were walking along behind him. They caught up with him, heard what he was saying and Ms Sturgeon put her arm around him. Cue end of report and mega embarrassment for the reporter – all caught on camera.

  212. Mike says:

    Irony Klaxon. The BBC reporting on Fake news.

  213. Fred says:

    Mc Garry’s onto plums here! Roxburgh/Peebles, good guy well liked locally, kent his faither!

  214. Nana says:


    Here’s Nicola catching up with the bbc reporter


    James Kelly writing in ibtimes

  215. Nana says:

    Guess I should post the link d’oh!

    Nicola catches up with bbc reporter

  216. Rock says:

    The establishment and media will never allow a centre left Labour government at Westminster.

    The likes of Corbyn can never win. If by any chance they do, they will destroyed very quickly.

    New Labour was a continuation of Tory rule.

    The only purpose of Labour is to give the illusion that there is democracy at Westminster.

    Their record is backing Tory policies or abstaining to let them pass.

    For a very long time they got away in Scotland with their lie of voting Labour to prevent the Tories.

    The SNP should never ever trust Labour or do any deals with them.

  217. Macart says:


    Good to know Nana, but take her easy nonetheless. We’ll need oor bestest in the not too distant future. 😉

  218. Cactus says:

    Cactus says: SO

    Just wanted to see what that looked like.

    To the gallows!

  219. DerekM says:

    @ Gfaetheblock

    I do not think you do or you would understand why they had to vote against.

    If the SNP had voted against instead of abstaining then it would be fine but the SNP did not they abstained and if your MP had followed this then they would be admitting to still taking the SNP parliamentary whip.

    And you can bet it would used against the SNP by the yoon press.

    So now do you get it?

  220. stewartb says:

    If in a FPTP Westminster general election, one party can become the all-powerful government of all of the UK – ‘speaking’ for all of the UK on everything and anywhere in the world – with much less than 50% of the popular vote and with only one or a few more MPs than all other parties across the UK combined.

    In this system, the SNP will continue to represent the majority view of the Scottish electorate even with fewer MPs than at present – should this be the outcome. To me, the key issue is the wording of the manifesto that the SNP puts to the electorate in June.

    And this wording should NOT be about getting mandate for an Indyref2 – that mandate has already been secured! The status of the prior decisions of the electorate at the last Scottish Parliamentary election and then the vote in the Scottish Parliament regarding an indyref2 MUST be sustained and respected – not diluted.

  221. Effijy says:

    Shouldn’t the Tories be keeping Labour in a dry box with straw in it?

    They went into hibernation years ago and the Tories only drag them out to play with them and make fun of them.

    I heard Mrs May bought Jeremy a Hamster Fur Jacket for the Winter but after leaving parliament in it he went missing?
    Turns out he was going round on the London Eye Wheel for 4 hours. lol

    Kez the Dippy Dug was on Shortbread Radio earlier.
    It seems that she is pledging to build few homes per year than the SNP Government, and see this as a strength.

    Do you think she forgot that when Labour last controlled the Scottish Parliament they built 6 new houses over 5 years?

    If we look at Labour’s Disastrous costs for the new Holyrood parliament building, the Edinburgh Trams fiasco, the PFI Schools and Hospitals build at Loan Shark rates of Interest, etc, you know that Labour couldn’t run a Bath.

  222. schrodingers cat says:

    Brian Powell
    schrodingers cat

    The SNP vote in NE Fife in 2016 increased by 400 to 11400. The constituency for Holyrood is different than for Westminster, excluding towns like Leven.

    the difference between the holyrood and westminster constituencies for NEF are very small, including half of the ward of leven approx 3000 people and 2000 voters, they are a mixture of lib/lab/snp voters so the overall difference between the the constituencies is neglegable

    in 2015
    snp 18k
    libs 14k
    snp 11k
    libs 14k

    the snp do have supporters in nef, no doubt about it, but like the rest of scotland, snp and labour voters dropped about 30% between the GE and the HE. we would expect a drop in turnout , perhaps not so big but, par for the course. however, the lib dem vote held up and the tories increased by 64k.
    thats why the tories and the libdem seats, not because of some huge swing to the tories but because the snp voters didnt show up.
    thats why here in our ward in nef our focus is on getting out our vote.
    our worry is that the snp voter turn out drops even more (turn out in local elections is usually 30-40% ) but that the libdem vote holds up.

    all this is possibly of little interest to those in the very safe snp seats with massive majorities like glenrothes, kirkaldy etc, where the tories and libdems are nowhere, but there are a fair few seats in scotland which are much less secure.
    we should target our energies in these areas, as the yoons most definately will

  223. Thepnr says:

    That CH4 clip Legerwood posted was pretty good, I think the SNP supporter was just trying to bolster support and didn’t mean that if the SNP failed to hang on to their 56 MP’s then an Indy Ref was unjustified.

    I understand what Lenny Hartley was saying though and that this type of mistake is to be avoided at all costs especially if it comes from elected officials who talk on TV and fail to pull up interviewers on matters that an average WOS reader would know.

    The older guy has an excuse though for his mistake and I would never hold it against him. He’s one of us that just hasn’t read Wings yet 🙂

  224. galamcennalath says:

    So TMay has declared that this election is about the country uniting behind her, Brexit, and the Tories!

    Fair enough, I take it that means she will call off Brexit then resign if she fails to get 50% of the votes cast!?

  225. call me dave says:

    Just finished herding cats in an evening class… 7 attended all male between 25yrs and 35yrs (3 SNP) (1 GREEN) (3 DGAF@ck!) 🙂

    All electricians, all pretty smart.

    Hope this link works.

    Here’s Nicola ambushing the BBC man.

    Read this on WoS twitter. I’m Sorry says Elizabeth.

  226. Thepnr says:


    I shouldn’t think you should have to worry too much, the manifesto surely will clearly state that the SNP already have a manifesto for a second referendum.

    Potentially it could also state that this vote could reinforce it if more SNP MP’s are elected than the others combined. That is their goal and not 56 MP’s again.

    The SNP won’t make any stupid mistakes in the wording of their manifesto for this GE with regard to a second referendum.

  227. Capella says:

    Why the talk of the SNP losing seats in the GE?

    Electoral Calculus predicts that the SNP will still have 56 seats. Two are vulnerable to be lost to the Cons – Richard Arkless and Calum Kerr. Both are in the Borders. But two are likely to be gained, Ian Murray’s Edinburgh South seat and Alisdair Carmichael’s Orkney seat.

    If Calum Kerr and Richard Arkless get enough support, and the Greens stand aside where they lost their deposit last time, then the Borders seats might still be won – including David Mundell’s.

  228. call me dave says:

    Jings! snap X 3 with NC.

  229. Artyhetty says:

    Re; manand boy@6.38

    Sir Lynton Crosby? Sounds positively mediaeval. What next. Hah! On guard! Swords out, swashbuckling daggers at dawn fantasy stuff. These people inhabit a land which is long in the tooth, old hat and has no place in a modern democracy. Except we all know that Britanatia is no democracy. It is an illusion created by the establishment.

    The elephant in the room is why call this GE and why now. So we all just accept and abide by tory rules britannia, again. Really when the chips are down, the electorate have very liitle say. They can’t veto this GE.

    It’s like some dystopian society, where the rich and powerfull call all the shots. Of course that cannot be sustained forever.

    It’s great to see so many now joining the SNP. Shame EU citizens and 16/17 year olds are not alowed to vote in a GE. Maybe they should vote anyway, online or something, just to show that they should have a vote about the immediate future of their country, or chosen country, and how that might have a bearing on the result.

    Scotland’s council elections on May 4th are going to be rather interesting.

  230. heraldnomore says:

    And there’s more effijy – when Slab did there masterclass in housebuilding they didn’t just have control of Holyrood, but Westminster too, and the cooncils. They yanked all the chains, and produced sod all, which is a significant part of why they are where they now are (but by no means all).

  231. Brian Powell says:

    schrodingers cat

    The SNP vote in 2016 was 11,400. Increased vote.

  232. Gfaetheblock says:


    I really do not get your point, maybe I am just too thick. By extension of your logic, Thomson could never vote the same as SNP as this means she was taking the whip. I cannae be arsed checking her voting record but I suspect she has followed the whip previously.

    Thomsons’ twitter makes interesting reading, is her criticism of Sturgeon is part of preventing yoon media saying that they are taking the whip?

    ‘I voted no against #GE17 – this is a time for leadership from the opposition not abstention’

  233. Robert Louis says:

    I must say, Derek Bateman (who in my opinion is very level headed) is hitting it straight on the nail, with his recent comments on his blog. He effectively argues, that in this election our cry should not be ‘we want a referendum’, but rather it should be ‘we want independence’.

    He makes many of the points I made yesterday, but much more lucidly than I could. He also makes it clear he is not advocating UDI.

    Here is a short quote;

    “At the moment, by endlessly pleading with a tin ear government in London for the right to consult our own people, we play their game. We make it sound as if our objective is indyref2 itself when it is of course independence. May and her team have proved themselves impervious to reason and enemies of democracy – using it only as a means of self-advancement even when they legislated to avoid snap elections. She isn’t listening to Sturgeon and won’t until the Brexit process is over and it’s too late.

    To her we are bleating about needing her permission to hold a vote. Please, please, Theresa. Be nice and say Yes.”

    It really is time to up the ante, time to play hardball, because the stark truth is, time is running out.

    I do hope the SNP is listening, because they really, really need to.

    I would urge all on here to read what he has written.

  234. Dr Jim says:

    Vote SNP we fight Tory austerity the same as now, the Independence part comes later and that’s where the good deal comes in
    For some folk they might not want Independence but voting SNP you get the choice to say No or Yes, Vote Tory you get no choice of anything

    Maybe that would make a snappy slogan

    Vote SNP for choice

  235. galamcennalath says:

    All gone quiet on Syria and North Korea. Funny how stories can go out of fashion with the media overnight.

  236. heedtracker says:

    Viceroy Sis Fluffie has spaketh on to the vile seps, rebel alliance, of his Scotland region of greater England. Its nice that a beeb gimp’s got Fluffie’s back too, not that way, the beeb way.

    Nick Eardley Retweeted
    David Mundell?Verified account @DavidMundellDCT 7h7 hours ago

    For all you Twitter lip readers out there, I said “Leadership Pitch” after Yvette Copper’s PMQ. Don’t think I was only one to think that!

  237. Lenny Hartley says:

    Ledger wood, I didn’t misrepresent anything, did the guy agree with the reporter or did he not?

  238. Cadogan Enright says:

    Anyone able to update these figures in time for the May/June election ?

    Record Sales 2016 now 160,000.

    Here is the graph of sales to 2015

    And sales v’s votes to 2015

    All continue to go the right way

    Pity we cannot get real figures for the BBC……… would make a good graph

  239. Thepnr says:

    @Robert Louis

    Derek Batemans post was good today and more in line with my thinking. It’s Independence we’re after, not a referendum but that does not mean UDI.

    ”He also makes it clear he is not advocating UDI”

    I think it’s worth repeating that message too for WOS readers.

    ”I do not advocate UDI. I never have. It only applies in extreme cases where the world community realises all democratic means have been exhausted and there remains no other option. That is far from the case with Scotland.

    Such is our constitutional position that I believe even a referendum result requires to be endorsed by the current state – the UK – before the world will recognise us. Only then will other nations see the way clear to shake our hand. Rogue actions will not suffice.”

  240. DerekM says:

    @ Gfaetheblock

    Voting for or against with the SNP is okay it can not be described as taking the party whip even if they are there is no way to prove it.

    If the SNP had not whipped the party to abstain and allowed MP`s to choose how to vote that would have been okay as well,no way to prove it.

    However the SNP did use the whip so if the two had abstained along with the SNP then they would be admitting to taking the whip even if they did not and it was their own choice to abstain.

    It is a political quagmire best to stay as far away from as you can,your MP did the correct thing.

  241. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert Louis says: 19 April, 2017 at 9:29 pm:

    ” … I would urge all on here to read what he has written.”

    Oh! Dear! What to do? Do I listen and believe the First Minister of Scotland and the Party that has brought Scottish politics from nowhere to having all but three Westminster Seats for Scotland, has been the government if Scotland for several terms and is, if all reports are right, on the brink of a sweeping victory in the local council elections. Or do I listen instead to who a commenter on the Rev Stu’s blog believes is a better judge?

    That’s a really tough one to have to choose.

    I’ll have to give it a lot of thought. NOT!

  242. Ken500 says:

    Go on Wikipedia

    Clive Lewis attended Sandhurst and went to Afghanistan.

    He had a speech prepared supporting Nuclear – Trident (Labour policy) Corbyn Press officer Martin Kettles? ex Guardian changed it, Lewis punched the wall and carried on. Suitable Labour leader? Votes against the Party. Another one Maybe?

  243. Rock says:

    Thepnr says:
    19 April, 2017 at 9:48 pm

    “I think it’s worth repeating that message too for WOS readers.”

    Quoting Derek Bateman:

    “Such is our constitutional position that I believe even a referendum result requires to be endorsed by the current state – the UK – before the world will recognise us. Only then will other nations see the way clear to shake our hand. Rogue actions will not suffice.”

    Robert Peffers,
    (Unionist Manifesto Update, 7 April, 2017):

    “Just let them try and NOT respect the results. The EU and UN would be on it like a flash as the Westminster Government has signed up to both of their treaties that specifically have written into them the human right of Self Determination.”

    (Unionist Manifesto Update, 7 April, 2017):

    “I can say with 100% confidence that the EU and UN would do absolutely nothing that would make us independent in such a scenario.”

    Waiting for WOS reader Robert Peffers to read your quote of Derek Bateman.

  244. Graeme Doig says:

    Confessions of a junior doctor on ch4. All you need to know about Tory England.

    Overworked, demoralised staff at breaking point.

    We should not kid ourselves on that this wont be our NHS soon if we don’t get control over our economy and the tax take to invest in the professionals trying to do their best for patients.

  245. caz m says:

    We need to remind these Yoons that we won 45% of the vote in IndyRef1 with just SIX SNP MPs.

    Anything over 30 SNP MPs is a majority.

    I am trying not to get caught up in the Yoon trap of “Anything less than 56 MPs is a failure”.

  246. Geore? Gannon says:

    No this is bad Rev. I know it’s a tv drama, real life , i was sad all night thinking about this actual barbaric thing.

  247. Graeme Doig says:

    What makes people play so fast and loose with their country’s healthcare system?

    Some folk must think they and their loved ones are invincible.

  248. caz m says:

    Dorothy Devine 6.58pm RE: STV

    How many times have I said that watching BBC Scotland or STV at teatime is very bad for your health.

    Avoid at all costs and you will feel better for it.

    Dont’t even watch your favourite shows on STV, watch them on ITV.

    STV need to be taught a lesson.

  249. Robert Graham says:

    Corbyn rejects coalition with the SNP thank f/k for that .

  250. Breeks says:

    Capella says:
    19 April, 2017 at 9:06 pm
    “…Two are vulnerable to be lost to the Cons – Richard Arkless and Calum Kerr. Both are in the Borders.
    If Calum Kerr and Richard Arkless get enough support, and the Greens stand aside where they lost their deposit last time, then the Borders seats might still be won ….”

    Hmmm. Don’t rate my local (Roxburgh) SNP brigade. If enough people vote for the badge they might be ok, but if an ardent supporter of Indy like me wouldn’t give them the time of day, well…. you do the maths.

    I’d back YES to the hilt, but my local SNP, and local Council can GTF far as I’m concerned, so Im probably not going to vote in the Council elections, and hold my nose and vote for the badge when it matters.

  251. Ken500 says:

    Folk who argued to give SNP voters 2nd preference to the Greens. Losing the SNP Holyrood majority.

    Now arguing that SNP will loss Westminster seats. Giving information where that is possible?

  252. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Thepnr @ 21:48,

    It’s true, it’s not about that scary acronym “UDI”. (Yet, anyway.) But things have moved on after yesterday. We’re not forelock-tugging and asking nicely anymore, either.

    It’s our right to decide, and this GE in Scotland, fought explicitly on that inalienable right of self-determination, will demonstrate our resolve to exercise it for the whole world to see. With a greater vote share here in Scotland than the Mayhem Gang achieve across the whole UK, I have no doubt.

  253. caz m says:

    Graeme Doig

    Good to hear from you.

    Hope you and the family are well.

  254. E A Cameron says:

    In 2014 we had a pre-Independence negotiations referendum. I would like to see the SNP say in this general election campaign that a vote for the SNP is a vote to commence immediate Independence negotiations with a view to a post-negotiations referendum.

  255. Capella says:

    @ Breeks – you seem to will the end but not the means? Don’t know about your Borders situation but without the SNP there ain’t going to be independence IMO. You will get a Unionist.

  256. Proud Cybernat says:

    “I am trying not to get caught up in the Yoon trap of “Anything less than 56 MPs is a failure”.

    Ergo it surely must follow that if the Red or Blue Tories fail to obtain 93% of the parliamentary seats in rUK, then they cannot be regarded as the legitimate government of the UK.

    That is what the Yoons are effectively saying with this pish.


  257. Graeme Doig says:

    Hello Caz m.

    Working hard and kids hard work as usual mate. Having to summon some energy for all the political shenanigans ahead.

    Good to see you back too.

  258. K1 says:

    Ah see Crock has been sampling his Peffer files again…put those files doon Crock! Naebdy’s interested in yer V for vendetta campaign against Robert (praise be his fuckin’ name on Wings) Peffers. 🙂

  259. Thepnr says:


    Nobody on Wings gives a shit what your opinion is anymore.
    Take my advice, you’d do better better by shutting your cakehole.

  260. CameronB brodie says:

    As I posted from the Journal of Theoretical and Philisophical Psychology, neo-liberalism is radical ideology which is reformulating what “liberty” means and what it actually is to be human. Anglo-American neo-liberalism is a form of fascism which seeks to replace individual moral agency with the agency of pure market might. It offers no hope of delivering an open or inclusive society.

    Trajectories of Liberalism and Neoliberalism

    Liberalism can thus be understood as a defensive form of political thought, one that centres on the protection of individual liberty against different types of threat or coercion. Early neoliberal thinkers such as Hayek identified this as one of the weaknesses of classical forms of liberalism, for they argued that a defensive project was necessarily responsive and, because of this, never entirely free to set its own agenda. Hayek advances this position most clearly in his postscript to his Constitution of Liberty, entitled ‘Why I Am Not a Conservative’, in which he argues that the problem of more conservative forms of liberalism is that they necessarily have to be pulled along paths not of their own choosing. Because of this, Hayek instead advocates a neo-liberalism, one that breaks with tradition by asserting the revolutionary power of markets to open up new spheres of economic and, ultimately, individual freedom…..

  261. Robert Louis says:

    Robert Peffers at 1000pm,

    Aye Robert P,

    I do think, however, you should read what Derek has written, as opposed to making churlish comments. And I really do hope the SNP are paying attention, because the ‘we’re asking for a section 30’ stuff is wayy out of date, as of yesterday.

    Events are moving fast now, and we can either sit and watch it all unfold, or start setting the agenda.

    Let me provide the links again,

    Well worth a read, even for you, RP.

  262. Sinky says:

    More unchallenged attacks on SNP by Sky press reviewers and never a pro indy reviewer in sight. I thought broadcasters had to be balanced once election called.

    Its a bit like no Scot on Lions Rugby selection board so only two selected out of 42.

  263. Thepnr says:

    @Robert Peffers

    Agree with Robert Louis. I think you might enjoy reading them, measured know what I mean?

  264. geeo says:

    Apologies if some of this is not fully accurate, but here goes….

    There is a lot of confusion about what constitutes UDI in relation to Scotland.

    Scotland is an EQUAL PARTNER in a political Union with ENGLAND only. (1707).

    Within that Act are treaties, including the Declaration of Arbroath.

    The DofA GUARANTEES the Sovereignty of the Scottish people, and the independent Scottish Legal System.

    Scotland is NOT subservient to the WM parliament, nor ANY monarchy (the current monarchy is ironically of Scottish lineage).

    The Sovereign people of Scotland can effectively ‘sack’ its government AND it’s monarchy.

    In the modern world, this can be done via a plebiscite (2014) or by political remit, mandated by the sovereign people, ratified by the highest SCOTTISH court.

    In other words, thatcher was right when she stated this….
    “If the Scottish people return a majority of SNP Scottish MP’s to WM in a General Election, they can declare Scotland Independent”.
    Now, while the SNP could go down this route in the upcoming GE via a simple mandate stating Scotland will become independent if the people vote SNP in a simple majority (30 seats) it is fraught with difficult issues not foreseen in 1707.

    Namely, the ACTUAL way you become independent, is via UN acceptance.

    Now, the SG could lobby the UN of its electoral intent and quote Tory refusal to accept the democratic electoral mandate from 2016 Scottish election and the more recent Parliamentary mandate in Holyrood as justification of turning the Snap GE into a defacto legal referendum.

    If the UN accepted that reasoning, a ‘straight majority’ would create an independent Scotland.

    The other main issue is that, if you do not carry a popular majority, then can you really claim independence is the “sovereign will” of the people?

    The SNP clearly do not want to go down that route, and wish to carry the people with them. Quite rightly in my personal opinion.


    The SNP could add a self imposed pre-condition stating that if they (SNP) were to win a Majority of Scottish MP’s on June 8th WITH OVER 50% of the popular vote on the day, then the result WOULD STAND as a defacto referendum victory and viable grounds for declaring Scotland independent ln June 9th with full UN approval.
    The term UDI for Scotland is misleading, Scotland is NOT trying to be independent from England, we are seeking to DISSOLVE a VOLUNTARY Political Union.

    We have a legal right to do so. The only debate is the best way to dissolve the union to create the least harmful transition to independence, but MAKE NO MISTAKE, all and every option IS available to us in our quest if our EQUAL union partner tries to subjugate the Sovereign will of our people.
    As i say, apologies if any the above is factually innaccurate..Oor wonderful Mr Peffers i aint..!

  265. heedtracker says:

    Ruth Davidson currently being worshipped by BBC 2 Newsnight tories right the now. Must be lovely being a tory nutcase though, in a BBC studio. Ruth wants a hard brexit and her people of Scotland do not want a referendum, easy as tory pie.

  266. yesindyref2 says:

    Warren Gatland is an arse.

  267. Legerwood says:

    Nana says:
    19 April, 2017 at 8:42 pm
    Guess I should post the link d’oh!

    Nicola catches up with bbc reporter


    Thank you for the link. I thought it was priceless when I saw it this evening. Similar to the time when Mrs Thatcher walked up behind John Sargent when he was confidently predicting she would not come out to speak to the press. Think it took place in Paris after the result of the first round of the leadership election was announced.

    Welcome back. Missed your links. Don’t overdo it though, this is going to be a marathon.

  268. Andy White says:

    Well I’m going out on a limb here, but I think the SNP manifesto should say that, if agreement to Indyref2 is not produced by the U.K. government by a specified date, that a majority of Scottish MPs in GE2017 will be regarded as grounds for a declaration of UDI.

  269. heedtracker says:

    BBC Newsnight in Bath! Looking out for our boy right now, FibDems getting a beeb style balanced coverage, and it is too, actually sunny down there.

  270. Achnababan says:

    Sorry but a little OT and possibly OTT.

    Does anyone else see the resemblance between Mrs May and a certain Ms Cruella Deville?

  271. ScottishPsyche says:

    Theresa May cannot control her face. It is disconcerting to watch.

  272. Still Positive says:

    Andy White @ 10.58

    With you on that, but should say we will negotiate the end of the Treaty of Union.

    We have been pussy-footing around for far too long and need to coin a phrase ‘Take back control’.

    Some of us having been wanting independence for nigh on 50 years and we’re fed-up waiting.

    We need to be on the front foot and no messing about.

    Agree with Bateman – we’re about the same age and wanted indy for as long.

  273. Jim says:

    N..l F…..y said, “So we have a chance to get rid of this rotten Tory Government and the SNP ABSTAIN”

    Maybe I am not understanding this but didn’t Labour vote through the motion for another G.E.

    The SNP abstaining didn’t stop the motion which Labour voted for and why would the SNP voting have magically gotten rid aof a rotten Tory Government?

    What the fuck is he moaning about?

  274. Jim says:

    N..l F…..y

    “Today I called out Nicola Sturgeon on why she repeatedly ignores the will of parliament.”

    He is so proud of his day in the sun that he has pinned this tweet.

    What a sad individual if this is all he has going for him.

  275. Jim says:

    N…l F…..y the cunt is retweeting, “Watch Dennis Skinner force Theresa May to admit that ‘election fraud MPs’ will stand in the general election”

    Dennis Skinner voted against another G.E you fucking cuntasaurus.

  276. Meg merrilees says:

    Sinn fein and SDLP considering an anti-Brexit Alliance; but by the same token DUP and UUP also considering an Alliance. All to fight for over there as well as here.

    Gisela Stuart – that doyen of the pro-brexiteers is standing down before the Brexit talks turn nasty. “I know when it is time to stand down and pass on the (poisoned) baton” I’ll bet she does!
    8 Labour MP’s standing down so far..

    According to the Torygraph- “SNP plotting a Coalition of Chaos”

    tRuthless Harrison Televised debates are not a big General Election issue

    Here’s some REAL NEWS- Brussels is starting to shut British businesses out of contracts. Nobody in government to care about that!

    Also The National has a story that Trump’s armada is sailing AWAY from N. Korea and is currently 3,000 miles away.

  277. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert Louis says: 19 April, 2017 at 10:38 pm:

    “I do think, however, you should read what Derek has written, as opposed to making churlish comments.”

    Well, Robert Louis, as it happens I have read Derek’s article. Perhaps even before you did.

    ” … And I really do hope the SNP are paying attention, because the ‘we’re asking for a section 30’ stuff is wayy out of date, as of yesterday.”

    Whatever makes you imagine the SNP are not paying attention? Thing is the SNP, (as a group), you, me and even Derek himself are able to do their own thinking and analysis of any situation and each of us, except the group, are equally prone to get it wrong. A group, though, is more likely to get it right provided they listen to each others reasoning and are honest enough to say, “I’m sorry I got it wrong”, when someone else explains why they were wrong.

    Now I’m going to point out just a couple of, what are to me, obvious facts but, as I already said, I could be wrong.

    Derek goes on about UDI. I have posted here many, many times that under the independent law of Scotland it is not possible for Scotland to declare a, “Unilateral Declaration of Independence” -(UDI). With this proviso – that the Scottish Government declaring independence has a proven mandate to do so from a legally elected majority of the Scottish electorate.

    Here’s quite simply why – The United Kingdom is a bipartite union of two, equally sovereign, kingdoms and the Treaty is a legally binding contract between them recognisable as such under both Scottish & English law and there is no such thing as a UK legal system.

    So even although the Treaty was signed in a thoroughly illegal manner with proven English Government undercover agents, coercion, bribery and military threats- if we accepted those terms it could be claimed we had agreed to them , but I digress.

    Accepting that the Treaty was a voluntarily agreed treaty of equals then legally either partner can withdraw from the union if the other party is not upholding the terms of the Treaty – So where do you want me to start reeling off the articles of union that have been broken by Westminster since 1 May 1707?

    So here’s the facts – A Scottish government properly elected and with a mandate from a majority of Scottish voters can tell Westminster the Union is over – but there is, of course a catch. That Scottish Government will be accused of declaring UDI illegally unless it can garner enough support from many other nations.

    Let me give you facts – Yesterday I quoted the fact that over 200 states have diplomatic ties with Palestine and Palestine is accepted as, “An Observer”, state by the UN. Yet Israel settlers are still establishing settlements in agreed Palestine territory and getting away with it because states like the USA & the UK back Israel.

    The truth is that no matter if a state has the right and the legal backing they cannot claim their legal rights unless those rights are accepted by the more powerful states in the World.

    Which is why I believe the SNP are cultivating the 27 EU member states and why Nicola Sturgeon, and Salmond before her, have been systematically cultivating support around the World and in Europe.

    ” … Events are moving fast now, and we can either sit and watch it all unfold, or start setting the agenda.
    Let me provide the links again.

    You assume I don’t keep myself very much up to date. I assure you that I do. I may be wrong but it won’t be because I don’t have a fairly good idea of what is going on.

    “Well worth a read, even for you, RP.”

    Once again you assume you are directing me to links that you have no idea I may already have read. Furthermore, you assume that such as Derek Bateman is any better at drawing conclusions or is a better authority as I – or indeed as yourself.

    Now please do not get me wrong – what I’m saying is not a reflection upon Derek, (who BTW I hold in high regard), but just the simple fact that you and I are as able to seek out facts and draw conclusions. None of us, Derek included, is exempt from being wrong.

    I’ll put that another way for you. I’m fed up to my back teeth of the many quoted, “Experts”, trotted out by the media and governments to the extent that I find myself thinking every time I see the claim made :-


    Then I read the, “Evidence”, they trot out, do some checking, and draw my own conclusions.

  278. Jim says:

    @Meg merrilees

    Here’s some REAL NEWS- Brussels is starting to shut British businesses out of contracts. Nobody in government to care about that!

    Also The National has a story that Trump’s armada is sailing AWAY from N. Korea and is currently 3,000 miles away.
    Not in EU then no right to long term contracts.

    Trump was never going to go to war with N.Korea, too much to lose nothing to gain!

  279. Terry says:

    Good tip to convert no voters to yes. Mention LBC radio. Admittedly James o brien is good. But the people that phone in make call Kaye seem mild. Nothing alienates Unionists more than hearing their wonderful English over lords and masters slag them off. Honestly. Listen to that channel and you know for sure we are a different country.

  280. Robert Peffers says:

    @Thepnr says: 19 April, 2017 at 10:46 pm:

    “Agree with Robert Louis. I think you might enjoy reading them, measured know what I mean?”

    Nope! Sorry! I don’t know what you mean.

    May I enquire what evidence you have that I had not already read what was written?

  281. Capella says:

    @ meg merrilees – aye they’ll be high fiving in Pyongyang today. Kim Jong Un just glowered at Trump and the Armada turned tail and sailed away.

    @ jim re NF, I think that SLab are just chronically thick. Only explanation that fits the facts. With the polls predicting a Tory landslide, Labour vote for an early election, instead of forcing the Tories to repeal their own FTPA, or vote no confidence in themselves.

  282. Robert Peffers says:

    @geeo says: 19 April, 2017 at 10:49 pm:

    There is a lot of confusion about what constitutes UDI in relation to Scotland.
    Scotland is an EQUAL PARTNER in a political Union with ENGLAND only. (1707). “

    Now there’s someone who thinks for themselves. Who weighs up the arguments and draws a conclusion.

    Like everyone else the conclusion reached may be wrong but it is an honest conclusion based on the evidence. Everyone can come to wrong conclusions and the only ones who are dishonest are the ones who can never admit they might be wrong and geeo does indeed say the conclusion may be wrong. It probably isn’t though.

    That’s exactly what I have been attempting to get across to those who seem to think that because some other person comes to a conclusion it cannot be wrong or argued with.

    That is where the strength comes from. We can all try and come to conclusions and we can all argue our points. If we remain honest, and can admit to being wrong if someone else’s conclusion makes more sense, we will arrive at the right conclusions by pooling our ideas and correcting ourselves if someone else can pick a mistake up.

  283. heedtracker says:

    Interesting how hard beeb gimps buried real world stuff today.

    Its just that watching BBC Newsnight going on and on about how Tim Farron thinks gay people are sinners, bad kinds of news is buried by same beeb gimps. Not that hell awaiting for gay people, if they don’t vote FibDem maybe isn’t a BIG issue…

    “British financial markets experienced contrasting fortunes on Tuesday after Prime Minister Theresa May called a snap General Election for June 8.

    The value of the pound soared to fresh 2017 highs against both the dollar and euro, but the FTSE 100 index of blue-chip shares lost around £46 billion, or nearly 2.5% of its value, falling by 180 points to 7,147 by Tuesday’s close.

    It was down another 13 points first this morning.

    The Prime Minister said the early election was the only way to guarantee political stability for the future as Britain negotiates its way out of the European Union.”

    BBC tory propaganda is going to be a site to see this time. Hope Scottish tory roasters fire up their Wheel of Tactical Voting thing again. That was really fun.

  284. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    I do not understand how anybody would have wanted the SNP to oppose this General Election. It gives us a whole range of enormous opportunities.

    There are quite a lot of wee squeaky mice about.

    As Nicola says she intends to hold the 56 we have and win the other three

  285. Smallaxe says:

    Achnababan says:

    “Does anyone else see the resemblance between Mrs May and a certain Ms Cruella Deville?”

    I’ve just noticed your post, Achnababan, If my memory’s correct then I think that you will find that Ken500 has held that opinion for some time, quite rightly in my own opinion.

    There should be a law against that face!

    Peace Always

  286. Thepnr says:


    I certainly agree with you and consequently you too Robert Peffers.

    So lets get just one thing straight.

    Do you both agree that for Independence to happen we must have a majority of those living in Scotland that say so?

    As that is my view?

  287. Chick McGregor says:

    Cruella Deville?

    Not even Close (sic). 🙂

    I see her more as a Praying Mantis.

  288. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Robert Peffers/Robert Louis/Thepnr et al –

    No-one can keep up with everything that’s happening.

    If some of us are getting wires crossed it’s because there’s no point at which we can all stop to take stock and double-check that we’ve all read and digested the same information.

    So it goes, and so it ever was, eh?

    But there is surely one thing on which we can all agree – the current situation is intolerable.

    The SNP could, on June 9th, have complete command of all Scottish Councils and, at minimum, 50+ MPs.

    If that isn’t a mandate for independence, what is?

    How much longer do we have to tolerate the way we’re treated by WM? How high is the actual bar which has to be cleared?

    And who decides this?

    The anger is tangible, and we have a moral duty, as citizens, to communicate that frustration as clearly as possible, so that ‘our’ democratically elected representatives know precisely who and what they are standing for.

    We demand change. Real change. Not more ‘promises’. Yes, the SG has done as much as it can to ‘mitigate’ Tory austerity, but it’s an horrific game of call-my-bluff, when we know that in extremis, WM could shut Holyrood with a Regal stroke of the pen.

    If we, the people, do our bit by expressing ballot-box faith in the declared SNP/Green commitment to full independence, the individuals we choose are duty-bound to utilise every tool at their disposal to make that happen.

  289. Smallaxe says:

    Hi, Chick, If that’s the case, I worry about who or what she is praying to.

    Peace Always my Friend

  290. gus1940 says:

    Re election fatigue is it not a fact that prior to the reorganisation of Local Government in 1975 Council Elections were held every year with a proportion of councillors submitting themselves for re-election each year?

  291. Thepnr says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    If we, the people, do our bit by expressing ballot-box faith in the declared SNP/Green commitment to full independence, the individuals we choose are duty-bound to utilise every tool at their disposal to make that happen.

    In my opinion that’s the only answer, only with the majority of support of the ordinary people of Scotland can this ever work.

    No minority support can ever win, don’t be daft. You don’t have to look far for evidence of that. We, yes us need to get our heads screwed on, we are winning now. Believe me we’re in the lead.

    Don’t know about you but I think we are, do yourself a favour and read my earlier post at 8:21.

    Last chance saloon though with us on level pegging? I’d take us every time. We’re not messing about anymore.

    As May said to Sturgeon “This is not a game” The cheeky bastard.

  292. Cactus says:

    Love Scotland,

  293. yesindyref2 says:

    Yay! Election fever. Two of them! I’m enjoying it 😎

    As for that “armada”, I wouldn’t call the Carl Vinson, two guided-missile destroyers and a guided-missile cruiser – even if there are a couple of subs in tow – and no matter how capable – and even with some Japanese destroyers – an armada in the context of North Korea, it would have to be considerably more, specially including another carrier. In my humble opinion.

  294. yesindyref2 says:

    That “armada” by the way appears to be the normal annual exercise off South Korea. I’ve got to say I’ve always considered it to be provocative, China is apparently suggesting the exercise be put on the table for negotiation with North Korea to ease tensions and reduce the nuclear advance of North Korea – and I agree.

    There’s too much willy-waving.

  295. Big Phil says:

    your either for Scotland or tory. END OF. I remember a wee sketch from Rikki Fulton, mentioning summit about the only scottish tory. The way its going now theres loads of them, bunch of ("Tractor" - Ed)s and i dont give a shit if you dont like it Rev.. fuck this tractor shit… say it as you mean.

  296. Iain More says:

    I don’t give an eff about whether or not the SNP should have abstained or voted against whatever. It would have made absolutely no effin difference to the outcome of the vote. We are going to have a GE in June so could the bores/trolls please move on.

    The smear tactic of focusing on McGarry and Thompson well that is a smear when set against the fact that 20 plus Tories are facing charges of Electoral Fraud with an election in the offing – In other words GTF with yer trolling.

    The enemy is the British Tories and the Yoons and ridding Scotland of them for good is what is focusing my mind right the now. If you cant say something to aid in that then GTF!

    P.S I have a cold and I am on my third toddy.

  297. Macart says:


    Posted this elsewhere earlier.

    I strongly suspect we WILL have a referendum regardless of what May or Westminster says. It must be before the conclusion of Brexit negotiations and after the electorate are aware of what the Brexit deal entails.

    Right now the Scottish Government, in keeping with the 2014 referendum, are seeking an S30 order. That is NOT about seeking to hold a referendum in itself, but about seeking to hold a referendum which is mutually legally acceptable and binding. So far as I understand, Scotland can hold consultative referendums on any damn thing we please, every day of the week and twice on a Friday if we feel like it. The problem being legal challenge in the aftermath.

    How and ever, a very recent precedent has been set by a government not a million miles away of a consultative referendum which is in the process of being carried into action and law as we speak. No one challenged the popular outcome, (they didn’t dare), only the nature of how the outcome should be debated and administered.

    I also strongly suspect that the wording of the SNPs GE 2017 manifesto will be worth reading. I’m willing to bet the kid gloves will be coming off for the upcoming fight.

    Just a feeling like,but I don’t think anyone should be in any doubt by this point that Scotland’s First Minister has been utterly consistent in her and her governments message. They should also be in no doubt that our First Minister does not bluff or play games with people’s lives.

    Politics in the UK is in full on car crash mode right now. People aren’t just uncertain or unsettled anymore, they’re frightened and with good reason.

    The SG have been calm, measured and consistent throughout this chaos and folk have given them their backing. They know what’s at stake and they know, better than most, what the repercussions will be if May becomes Queen, Empress, Goddess of Westminster with a couple of decades of Conservative hegemony squared away and the GRB enacted along with the Henry VIII clause.

    I’m not a politician. I’m no strategist or policy gonk either, yet I find we have to put our faith in those very folk because they’re doing what we can’t, won’t or don’t. Am I nervous at putting my trust and hopes in other folks hands? Do I feel like constantly sitting at their shoulder and telling them when they’re not getting it right, moving fast enough, moving too fast, being too quiet, being too loud not being enough of all of the above at the right time?

    Does a bear poop in the woods?

    I’m only human, but so are they.

    They’ve had my trust for the past decade because they earned it. I can give them another couple of years surely, because they’ve earned that too. (ends)

    Now, more than ever, calm and measured response I reckon.

    All of us together. 😉

  298. Big Phil says:

    per chance do you mean the tractors ? it gets my goat that we are the lesser unwashed crettens. and are bad cos we are against the’establishment’ You ‘Tractors ‘ ought tae look yersels in the eye, FFS.

  299. yesindyref2 says:

    Economy – useful URL

    Dr Gary Gillespie, Chief Economist, 3rd March 2017, Scotland’s growth forecast at 1.3% for 2017-18

    There’s the odd unionist saying IMF forecast growth for the UK at 2% in 2017, and with Scotland -0.1% we’re a drag. But it isn’t true – as that recent ScotGov forecast shows. IMF’s global economy growth forecast at 3.5% in 2017 and 3.6% in 2018.

    Hit the Unionists’ selective inaccurate “facts” with genuine ones.

  300. Cherry says:

    Well said too many saying they should do this that or other. IMO they are and have been doing Scotland proud. I put my complete trust in the SNP they haven’t let me down so far. As for abstaining I think it was felt that this was for the English to sort out and no one could say it was SNP that done it.

  301. Brian McHugh says:

    Cool heads everyone… Anger is a gift.

    We all know Scotland doesn’t like folk trying to take the piss… Mayhems’ Tory’s will get a swift lesson on this at the coming two elections.

  302. mike cassidy says:

    Well, everybody seems to have exhausted themselves yeserday, and decided to have a long lie this morning.

    So when you do surface, ease your fevered brains in to the day with this report on the design competition for Trump’s wall.

  303. Smallaxe says:

    Good morning, Mike.

    The early bird……

    Peace Always

  304. Robert Peffers says:

    @Thepnr says: 20 April, 2017 at 12:39 am:

    “So lets get just one thing straight.
    Do you both agree that for Independence to happen we must have a majority of those living in Scotland that say so?
    As that is my view?”

    It certainly is my opinion – There is no doubt that legally the people of Scotland are sovereign. The Yoons and MSM would have you believe that this is just, “Popular Belief”. The facts though do not fit that claim for the Scottish courts have precedent that it is fact.

    Read that as the Scottish legal system has ruled that the people of Scotland are legally sovereign and that comes from The Declaration of Arbroath.

    Westminster claims that the Westminster Parliament is legally sovereign from 1688 and their, “Glorious Revolution”, when the Parliament of the Kingdom of England rebelled against their monarch and deposed him. They then handed the Kingdom of England’s crown to King Billy & Queen Mary on condition they legally delegated their, “Divine Right of Kings”, (Sovereignty), to the Parliament of England.

    That legally enshrined the matter into English Law. Note that this affected both Wales & Ireland as these were annexed by the English Kingdom in 1284 & 1542. respectively.

    The salient point. though, is that as the two kingdoms were still independent these things were also independent. The point that will be argued is that the English claim there was a Union of the crowns in 1603. There wasn’t, which is why James I of England was designated as James I of England & VI of Scotland. The union of the crowns was only a personal union for James as he wore two independent Kingdom’s crowns.

    The English would not allow there to be a United Kingdom in 1603 because under English law in 1603 they were still under the law of Divine Right and as James was the King of Scots if Divine right had still applied in Scotland James would have just tagged the three country kingdom of England onto his existing Kingdom and the whole lot would have become the Kingdom of Scotland.

    So they claimed that as James was only King of Scots that he did not have Divine Right under Scots law and, not being sovereign in Scotland, did not have Scottish sovereignty to claim England.

    So what they did in 1688 was assume that because the Kingdom of England deposed the monarch they shared with Scotland that the Scottish parliament had deposed their Monarch of Scots and to this day they still claim that those Scots who would not accept that England deposing their monarch applied to Scotland and it was a, “Jacobite Rebellion”. England was still slaughtering innocent, non-combatant, Scots at Culloden in 1745 almost 40 years after the Treaty of Union of 1706/7.

    There simply is no legal basis for the claim that Westminster has legal sovereignty over the Kingdom of Scotland. Not even under English law.

    The Treaty of Union is legally a contract between two equally sovereign Kingdoms and the treaty itself, (in article of Union Number 19), states that the Scottish legal system, (and hence the English legal system, are independent forever.

    How then can the resulting union parliament at Westminster claim sovereignty over the legally sovereign people of Scotland? For one thing Westminster is legally the United Kingdom Parliament but is now assuming itself to be the parliament of the country of England and is thus devolving country of England sovereign powers to Scotland, Wales & Ireland. Yet there is no legal parliament of England so Westminster has a legal identity problem.

    Which is why we have the totally ridiculous claims, that have no basis in fact, that the Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as, “The United Kingdom”.

    The problem is that Westminster has, for 310 years, been spreading the propaganda throughout the World that Westminster is the United Kingdom and that the terms UK, Britain, England and Great Britain are synonymous and all mean England.

    “England Expects”. “Brexit”, “The British Army”, “Britain Stood alone”. Ad Infinitem.

    That is the problem – to be accepted as an independent state, Scotland has to be recognised as independent by the World at large and to get the World to do so seems to require that the USA, in particular, has to accept it as fact.

    I refer you to the case of Palestine who are recognised by 200 World states and the UN grants them Observer status. Yet Israeli settlers are still establishing settlements in agreed Palestine territory.

    So it is that, “Special Relationship”, between, “Britain”, and the USA that is the biggest stumbling block to the World accepting the Kingdom of Scotland to be an independent state in her own right – the right of Self Determination. The other difficulty is that we have among us proud, “Scots buts”, who want to remain, “British”, even although the UK is not all of Britain.

  305. Nana says:


    For anyone who missed it yesterday, link here to the finance and constitution committee where Richard Murphy said

    “Has Scotland been boobytrapped by being given a v. limited range of tax powers? The answer is yes”

  306. Macart says:

    @mike cassidy

    I never sleep. I simply get put on recharge. 😯

  307. Nana says:

    Sturgeon opens London hub for Scottish businesses

    Ruth Davidson Says She’s Not Going To Stand In The General Election

    Scotland’s Transition to EU Membership: What Would it Take?

  308. Robert Peffers says:

    @Ian Brotherhood says: 20 April, 2017 at 12:46 am:

    “If that isn’t a mandate for independence, what is?
    How much longer do we have to tolerate the way we’re treated by WM? How high is the actual bar which has to be cleared?
    And who decides this?”

    Ah! Now you are getting the idea, Ian.

    We decide it. That is a majority of the people of Scotland decide it. Not Nicola Sturgeon, Not the SG, Not the SNP and certainly not Westminster and Theresa May.

    Only when enough of the people of Scotland stand together and tell the Establishment, “Enough is enough and we have had enough”, will anyone at Westminster really sit up and take notice.

    The SG are shackled because they are under Westminster control and the EU are, for a wee while longer, shackled as the UK is the member state and the UN is rather dominated by the USA. Things are changing though and in several previously unlikely places.

  309. Smallaxe says:


    You’ve made my day, welcome home.
    Lovely, Lovely, Linksss

    Peace Always

  310. Macart says:

    Ta Nana.

    Breakfast reading sorted. 🙂

  311. Liz Rannoch says:

    Sorry if this has already been answered but there’s just sooo much to be read through.

    A couple of days ago (was it really only 3 days ago?) I mentioned the rally on 3rd June and it’s fund raiser having to be cancelled. Due to Slab council changing the goal posts (?).

    Now I’m wondering if it will go ahead at all. Due to health problems over the past year, me & him haven’t been able to attend anything, (plus the problems of getting to Glasgow and not knowing where we’re going!

    Anyhoo, I was really looking forward to this time maybe getting there and maybe putting faces to some names of my ‘online family’.

    Anybody know whit’s happening?

  312. Robert Peffers says:

    @Smallaxe says: 20 April, 2017 at 12:52 am:

    “Hi, Chick, If that’s the case, I worry about who or what she is praying to.”

    No mystery there Smallaxe. Theresa is a daughter of C of E Vicar. The C of E is a part of, “The Establishment”, with their Archbishops and Bishops sitting in the HOL and the Queen of England is the Head of the C of E.

    Are you getting the picture now?

  313. Liz Rannoch says:

    Glad to see you back Nana, hope you’re feeling bright eyed and bushy tailed. Missed you. But please look after yersel, that’s some load o’ posts!!

  314. Smallaxe says:


    My apologies, Kettles on!

    In my excitement and lust for links, I forgot.

    Peace Always

  315. Nana says:

    @Liz Rannoch

    Thank you Liz, I’m much better now. I was a bit wobbly the last few days but if I take it any easier I might seize up completely.

    Reading copying and pasting doesn’t take much effort Liz, but the ironing pile sure needs tackling soon lol.

  316. cearc says:

    If Ms. May is letting the ‘fraud investigees’ continue to stand then she is not protecting herself against by-elections.

    Unless…….. She scraps by-elections. In favour of party placements. Like a list without a list for FPTP seats?

    I am sure that the BBC will present this as perfectly reasonable on her behalf.

  317. Smallaxe says:

    Robert Peffers:

    Picture perfect, as always, Sensei Peffers.


    Peace Always

  318. Robert Louis says:

    So, I’ve read through some of the replies to my comments last night, and well, I think what we can ALL agree on, is we are all pretty angry about the way things are. I certainly am.

    We can debate ideas on here (and it is healthy to be challenged), but I suppose now the real battle begins, because we cannot assume ANY results.

    So, at risk of sounding like a hypocrite, let’s channel the anger, and if we can get out physically and help the SNP canvassing etc..

    Now, the reason I say, ‘in danger of sounding like a hypocrite’, the fact is that for personal reasons, I really just can’t give any time to it right now – and that is why I don’t post here very often. I do however, know that whilst we have lots of members in the SNP (and even more have just joined – welcome, btw), the real test is getting people on the doorsteps and phones etc..

    One additional thing I will add, is I noticed on the REV’s twitter, the piece by Tommy shepherd literally taking the fight to our opponents last night. Well done to him I say. THAT is what we need the SNP to do, turn these nonsense unionist arguments on their head, and rather than defend the SNP stance, actually ALWAYS attack the unionists. Challenge their nonsense at every turn. No airtime can afford to be wasted. The old saying goes ‘attack is the best form of defence’, and it is true.

    Let’s see more, much more of that from the SNP. No more backward defense, hit out and attack, because as we all know, not only are unionists liars, but their arguments, when challenged have ZERO credibility.

    Oh, and while, as I say, I really cannot help the SNP for now, I still encourage any who can to do so, be it on phones, doorsteps or whatever. The more people canvassing, the better the results. Never assume ‘others’ will do it for us.

    Take nothing for granted. Nothing at all.

  319. admiral says:

    cearc says:

    20 April, 2017 at 7:54 am

    If Ms. May is letting the ‘fraud investigees’ continue to stand then she is not protecting herself against by-elections.

    Unless…….. She scraps by-elections. In favour of party placements. Like a list without a list for FPTP seats?

    I am sure that the BBC will present this as perfectly reasonable on her behalf.

    Just as she came up with some excuse re “opposition” in Parliament to circumvent the FTPA, she will use Brexit to engineer some excuse to declare a state of emergency and avoid parliamentary scrutiny if she has to.

    You think I’m joking – I ain’t! The howling insanity of the proto fascist press and a big majority in parliament will support her in whatever she does.

  320. Dorothy Devine says:

    Nana , glad your back – and some of us have huge ironing piles with NO excuse for not getting on with it , other than loathing !

    Caz-m , I do try to avoid it but have a husband who has to see a news and having been banned from Misreporting Scotland and RT having no ‘local news’ I have to allow so called ‘Scottish’ TV’s efforts.

    I usually use it as dish washing time!( Maybe should do the ironing instead)

  321. Liz Rannoch says:

    @ Nana & Dorothy Devine

    Bugger the ironing!

    Always gone for the ‘slightly crumpled’ look myself. 🙂

  322. cearc says:


    Oh,I’m not joking either. It seems only logical.

    Dorothy Devine,

    Maybe he could iron whilst watching it?

  323. McDuff says:

    Robert Peffers
    Good post Robert. You are absolutely right that there has been a deliberate intention to promote GB as England to the rest of the world.
    It you read Victorian magazines like Cassells or the Strand it mainly talks of England in relation to GB. And so many second world war movies its“ England stood alone“ or England with its back to the wall“. Even the Dads Army song says “if you think old England`s done“.
    Just a few days ago on a rare visit to BBC radio 4 a contributor to the program talked of young people no longer wanting to become a king or queen of England.
    In a 1967 copy of the Radio Times there were four Scottish programs with a Scottish content made in Scotland and networked across the UK, now there are practically none. Its 99% English and its programs are broadcast across BBC America and the rest of the world thus promoting England. Why does the BBC and other broadcasters only review the English newspapers ignoring the rest of the UK`s print. Their is no doubt that the popular series Outlander was not bought or promoted by the main UK companies because it might have created the Braveheart“ effect.
    Scotland has never been treated as a legitimate country like Denmark or Norway but as a region of Greater England. We must get out of this nonsense ASAP.

  324. Duncan Rowe says:

    Mike d.and all other posters who use such lazy phrases as ‘white settlers’. Please note it is very similar to the term ‘immigrant’ as used by the gutter press.
    Neither the country of their birth nor the genes they were born with should be used to stereptype an inhabitant of Scotland or for that matter anywhere.
    Please restrict the comments to what people do and say rather than where they come from or you you will appear no better than a racial bigot. I am sure it was a mistake.

  325. sensibledave says:

    Robert Peffers 12:46 am:

    You Wrote “We decide it. That is a majority of the people of Scotland decide it. Not Nicola Sturgeon, Not the SG, Not the SNP and certainly not Westminster and Theresa May.

    Only when enough of the people of Scotland stand together and tell the Establishment, “Enough is enough and we have had enough”, will anyone at Westminster really sit up and take notice.”

    Spot on Robert. There isn’t a democrat in the UK that doesn’t agree with that (always assuming that by “enough of the people …” you meant the majority). When that happens, then not only will Westminster take notice, it will grant the Independence the majority want … just like the offer last time.

    In the meantime, the Scottish government needs to work on the basis that the majority don’t want Independence and act accordingly.

    Contrary to the bunker mentality of many here on Wings, and as demonstrated by the granting of a Referendum by the tyrannical and oppressive MPs in constituencies throughout the UK, the Westminster Parliament is full of many folk that, on the whole, are good people that care about their country and their people and would never want to oppress anyone.

  326. Breeks says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    20 April, 2017 at 7:16 am
    @Thepnr says: 20 April, 2017 at 12:39 am:

    “So lets get just one thing straight.
    Do you both agree that for Independence to happen we must have a majority of those living in Scotland that say so?
    As that is my view?”

    It certainly is my opinion – There is no doubt that legally the people of Scotland are sovereign. The Yoons and MSM would have you believe that this is just, “Popular Belief”. The facts though do not fit that claim for the Scottish courts have precedent that it is fact.

    Read that as the Scottish legal system has ruled that the people of Scotland are legally sovereign and that comes from The Declaration of Arbroath……

    ….I refer you to the case of Palestine who are recognised by 200 World states and the UN grants them Observer status. Yet Israeli settlers are still establishing settlements in agreed Palestine territory”.

    I don’t disagree with any of that except the point made about the legitimacy of sovereignty being subordinate to recognition of that sovereignty.

    I do not doubt there are many emerging countries who get aspects of their sovereignty wrong, have no precedent or definitive constitutional legitimacy, or have their right to sovereignty contested. There is no automatic right to sovereignty, nor any guarantee that your sovereignty will be recognised for a whole series of unique variable and circumstances. I see and understand all of this.

    I see and understand it, but the problem I have is applying it to Scotland. We do not need to prove our case for virgin UDI legitimacy to a sceptical World audience. Scotland is different. We are a rare phenomenon in the modern world, because we can trace our Sovereignty through 700 hears of history, we have numerous documents and references to serve a provenance for that sovereignty, we know the Pope recognised Scotland’s sovereignty in the 13th Century, and we know too that the Declaration of Arbroath was a unique affirmation of Sovereignty, which secured the “international recognition” of its day, and thus the case of Scottish sovereignty is incontrovertibly legitimate.

    For Scottish Independence, we do not need to re-invent the wheel and persuade the world Scotland exists and has sovereign legitimacy. It is not sovereignty we need to create, it is a Union which needs its faux sovereignty to be exposed and dismantled.

    We do not need international recognition of Scottish sovereign legitimacy. What we need is international recognition of UK sovereign illegitimacy. It is not recognition of Scotland, but an end to the recognition of the UK.

    Now yes, through a democratic majority, Scotland can elect to walk away from that Union, and expect to recognised as an independent state. That’s everyone’s neat and tidy Option 1.

    However there is an Option 2. If the Act of Union represents a false state of affairs, specifically where it usurps Scottish sovereignty without legal authority for doing so, then the contract of Union becomes void through its lack of fundamental competency.

    It’s like a mundane business contract signed by a minor, or person registered as insane. The contract is void because there is no competency in law. It’s terms are unenforceable so the whole contract is meaningless. The Act of Union, whether by its actual terms or conventional interpretation, has assumed the right to subjugate Scotland’s sovereignty, but it has never had appropriate authority to do so, and thus there is no legal competence to the concept of singular joined “UK” sovereignty.

    Independence is not about proving Scotland exists, it’s about proving the UK properly cannot exist and enjoy legal competence.

    I believe that puts Scotland in a completely different set of circumstances in how a UDI needs to be interpreted. We are not creating an awkward precedent from thin air, we extricating our already recognised constitutional purity from a long misunderstood bùrach. I hate the word purity for its blood and soil connotations, but drop the connotations please because it’s the correct word to use.

    To give it a modern parallel, why are we not calling Brexit a UDI? Isn’t the UK just taking back a “Sovereignty” first conceded then revoked by volition? It’s the same thing isn’t it?

    It is UK sovereignty which empowers the UK to exit Europe arbitrarily. It is Scottish sovereignty which empowers Scotland to exit the UK arbitrarily. So why should we allow one be held as a controversially charged UDI but not the other?

  327. Free Scotland says:

    Anyone who talks about Westminster “granting” Scotland her independence is a political ignoramus.

  328. Macart says:


    Just doing a round of the usual suspects and dear God the reasoning leaves you speechless.

    Aye, apparently the Scottish government’s success during this election should be judged on vote share, not seats won.

    Following this logic, it doesn’t matter if they still return a majority of the Scottish seats. Doesn’t matter if they returned an MP from ALL 59 seats. If the vote share dips in any way, they and we the electorate simply have to accept that self determination is done.

    That’s their argument in a nutshell.

    Let’s be clear on this folks. The democratic deficit which Westminster governance enjoys already, apparently isn’t enough at this point. They want your opinion, your rights, your choices removed altogether.

    Are we getting the picture yet of what Westminster governance means? Do you understand what extended Conservative goverment means for you at this point?

    Your inalienable human and civic rights are at stake here.

    Your right to choose is at stake.

    If you think such statements are being overly dramatic then I give you the rape clause, the cutting of bereavement benefits, the cutting of housing benefits for teens, sanctions UK and indiscriminate deportation policy.

    These are with us TODAY and enacted by the Conservative government which has just called a snap election for no better reason than it wishes to extend its current tenure in office, secure a Conservative stranglehold on Westminster politics for the next twenty years, enact the GRB, the ‘British’ Bill of Rights and the Henry VIII clause. You lose the right to complain or fight any policy brought about by that hoose on the Thames.

    Still think the idea of losing your rights is dramatic?

    This is about protecting what is yours by right. If you lose it? It’s gone and nothing will bring it back while Westminster dominates the politics of these islands and our nation.

    Think about that.

  329. Wombat says:

    @breeks 8:55am
    We cannot declare the Union to be over UNTIL 50%+ of the sovereign people agreee. It is because the people are sovereign that there is an issue. No 50%+ no legal win. Endof.

  330. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    Today’s National front page:

  331. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    Today’s National twitter pages:

  332. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    The National:

    “Nicola Sturgeon: Tory attempt to block indyref2 will ‘crumble to dust’ if SNP win election”

    Andrew Learmonth, Journalist /
    NICOLA Sturgeon has said the SNP getting more seats than the Tories in Scotland would mean May’s objections to a second independence referendum would “crumble to dust”.

    The First Minister also said she would be willing to work with others to keep the Tories out of Downing Street, though admitted that, mathematically, it looked fairly unlikely Jeremy Corbyn would manage to get enough support for that to be a possibility.

    But Corbyn later ruled out a “progressive alliance” with the SNP, insisting that Labour can win on their own, despite the latest polls showing Theresa May romping home to victory with a 100-plus-seat majority.

    It was a busy day in Westminster with MPs voting 522 to 13 in the Commons in favour of unpicking the Fixed-term Parliament Act to allow an early election in seven weeks time.

    Tories, LibDems and the majority of Labour MPs all backed the June 8 poll, but 54 of the SNP’s MPs abstained, with Michelle Thompson and Natalie McGarry voted against.

    Those two politicians have both resigned the SNP whip, and are, effectively, suspended from the party while the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal’s Service consider respective police cases involving both. Because Thomson and McGarry are no longer in the SNP they will not be eligible for selection and look set to lose their seats.

    Speaking at the beginning of the debate, May told MPs the early election would be an opportunity to “put our fate in the hands of the people and let the people decide”. She had earlier said Corbyn was not “fit to lead” the country, because he couldn’t even lead his party.

    The early election was, she said, in “Britain’s national interest”.

    “A General Election is the best way to strengthen Britain’s hand in the negotiations ahead,” May told MPs. “Securing the right deal for Britain is my priority and I am confident that we have the plan to do it.”

    SNP MP Ian Blackford asked why if now was the right time for a General Election, why it then wasn’t the right time for an independence referendum.

    “Now is the time for a general election because it will strengthen our hand in the negotiations on Brexit,” the Prime Minister answered, adding: “Now is not the time for a second Scottish independence referendum because it would weaken our hand in the negotiations on Brexit.”

    Corbyn said the vote would be an opportunity for the UK to judge the Tories on their record in office. He added that it was “extremely interesting” May had chosen to call an election as the Crown Prosecution Service was deciding if they would press charges against any of the 30 or so people connected with the Tory expenses fraud scandal, where the party lodged false and inaccurate expense claims with the Electoral Commission.

    Glasgow MP Stewart McDonald asked the Prime Minister: “Does it not take some brass neck to call a General Election when you are facing allegations of buying the last one?”

    She replied saying the question was “not worthy” of McDonald.

    The First Minister, who was in London to open “Scotland House,” a government hub to help “ambitious Scottish companies take advantage of business opportunities in London and internationally,” also met with Westminster colleagues and spoke to reporters outside the Commons.

    Sturgeon said an SNP win in the election in Scotland would mean the Tories could no longer stymie an independence referendum.

    “Theresa May’s attempt to block our mandate to give the people of Scotland a choice over their own future when the time is right will crumble to dust,” the SNP leader said.

    One of the Tories’ most effective campaigning strategies in 2015 was to put in the minds of English voters the idea Ed Miliband would be in the pocket of the SNP, and Labour forced to do whatever his bosses north of the Border wanted. Lynton Crosby, the Australian political adviser who created that masterplan, is back working for the Tories. The one message the Prime Minister repeated again and again in her many speeches yesterday was that she offered “strong and stable leadership” compared to the “unstable coalition of chaos” of Labour and the SNP.

    When Sturgeon was asked about working with Labour, she too repeated her argument from the previous General Election: “If the parliamentary arithmetic lent itself to the SNP being part of a progressive alliance to keep the Tories out of government, then the SNP would seek to be part of that.”

  333. Song42 says:

    It’s always a pleasure reading any of Robert Peffers posts – a great historical educator with excellent political knowledge and understanding. Has such a good mind!

    I’ve learned much from him n his buds on here for many a year (aye, through the battles, heated discussions and the laughs too). Thank you Robert Peffers et al. Very much appreciated.

  334. Ken500 says:

    When will the coppers call? 31 constituency fraud. More division for the Tories. The EU Ref illegal based on fraud. There will have to be another one?

    Prof Murphy says quantitive easing give the rest of the UK an advantage £Billions of cancelled debt. While Scotland is expected to balance the books. Plus estimated false accounts. False accounting by Westminster who never balance the books. Loading Scotland with £Billions of illegible, illegal paper debt and illegally high taxes.Scotland not being treated equally. The terms of the Union broken.

  335. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    The National:

    “Greens co-convenor says party should not contest David Mundell’s seat and could work with SNP for a Tory-free Scotland”

    Exclusive by Kathleen Nutt, Journalist /
    THE Scottish Greens are poised to seek an informal electoral alliance with the SNP in some areas of Scotland in a bid to stop the Tories gaining any Westminster seats north of the Border.

    Maggie Chapman, the party’s co-convenor, said she did not see the Scottish Greens putting up candidates against David Mundell, or in a neighbouring Border constituency where the Conservatives came a close second to the SNP in the last General Election.

    Mundell is the lone Conservative MP north of the Border, and sits in Theresa May’s Cabinet as Scottish Secretary.

    He held his Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale & Tweeddale seat in May 2015 with a majority of just 728 votes ahead of the SNP’s Emma Harper. The Scottish Greens stood in the constituency but came sixth with just 839 votes and lost their deposit.

    They also lost their deposit in nearby Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk, where the SNP’s Calum Kerr narrowly beat the Tories’ John Lamont by 328 votes. The Scottish Greens came sixth with 631 and lost their deposit.

    After the last election the Greens were criticised by some in the broader independence movement for standing against the SNP and allowing Mundell to win. But this time the party seem ready to change their strategy.

    “This is from my own personal position but I would be quite happy for us to support non-Green candidates if it meant getting Tories out of Scotland and making sure we had elected representatives who walk the walk of the politics of the new Scotland we want to see,” Chapman told The National.

    “It’s going to be a difficult election for everybody in Scotland, coming so soon after the council elections, and the outdated system of first past the post makes it particularly difficult for us in some ways.

    “I think what we need to do is use this as an opportunity to talk about the kind of Scotland we want to see, the kind of politics we want to see, and I’m hopeful we can agree to say let’s back the candidates who offer those kinds of views and that kind of outlook for Scotland.

    “I don’t see us standing in seats in areas where we lost deposits last time.”

    Chapman added: “I’ve always advocated political co-operation. I think it’s an important element of how we do politics as Greens and this is possibly an opportunity for us to put this belief into practice, to work with it to make sure we see a more forward and outward-looking representation for people.”

    The issue was due to be raised at a party election strategy last night and Chapman said it would also be discussed by the wider party but she anticipated an approach to the SNP later this week.

    “There is a meeting of our election campaigns committee and a decision like this would be taken by the wider party membership as well. We have started to put plans in place today to enable that to happen,”she said.

    Asked if and when an approach would be made to the SNP, Chapman said: “We want to get our elections campaigns committee to have the discussion first but I know we will be approaching them in the next couple of days.”

    There has been much discussion of a wider progressive alliance with the notion first raised by Caroline Lucas, the Green Party MP. She has called for the Greens, Labour, the SNP and the Liberal Democrats to work together to present a left-of-centre challenge to the Tories.

    However, to date the idea has received little formal backing from the leadership of the other parties.

    Earlier yesterday, responding to the election announcement, Chapman said: “This is the sign of a weak and opportunist Prime Minister who, rather than trying to explain the damage she is doing, has resorted to this desperate tactic.

    “There is only one reason for Theresa May to hold an election now and it is that she knows that things are going to get worse as Brexit bites.”

  336. North chiel says:
    19 April, 2017 at 3:49 pm

    The seats which the SNP have majorities of less than 500-1000 are the ones I am concerned about slipping into unionist hands due to tactical voting and I hope HQ do target these seats.

  337. sensibledave says:

    Free Scotland 9:15 am

    You wrote: “Anyone who talks about Westminster “granting” Scotland her independence is a political ignoramus.”

    … I assume that was aimed at me. It isn’t a question of Westminster “granting” Independence to SCotland. It is a question of granting a referendum – which it did. The people of Scotland spoke. They said they wanted to remain part of the UK. Implicitly that majority said they wanted Westminster to remain as the senior Parliament and for there to be a SG at Holyrood. If the majority had voted to leave the UK then Scotland would be well on the way to being out by now.

    Just as a matter of interest, could you let me know who speaks for that majority – because it certainly isn’t Ms Sturgeon, the SNP or the Scottish Government for that matter. She talks about the what “the people of Scotland and what they want” but what she actually means is the people of Scotland that agree with her. Ms Sturgeon never seems to talk about what the majority of Scots demonstrated, in the referendum, that they wanted.

    Be aware therefore, as we run up to another demonstration of democracy in action in the UK, that democracy has something to do with what the “majority” of people have said they want. IF the SNP gets more than 50% of all the votes cast in Scotland in the GE then that will be a clear demonstration that there has been a change and that another referendum is justified and needed. If, in the subsequent referendum, the majority vote for Indpendence then Independence there will be. IF the SNP doesnt get 50% of the vote then clearly there is not the desire for change that Ms Sturgeon says there is.

    It is as simple as that as far as I am concerned (and for most other democrats that abide in the UK).

  338. Robert Peffers says:

    @Breeks says: 20 April, 2017 at 8:55 am:

    “I don’t disagree with any of that except the point made about the legitimacy of sovereignty being subordinate to recognition of that sovereignty.”

    Thing is that, whether we like it or not, and I’m not saying that Scotland hasn’t got a rock solid case with ample textual proof, if the big powers of the World do not recognise your claims they will not allow you to have your sovereignty.

    Here’s the brutal truth about England and the USA.

    England is a derivation of, “Angle Land”, and the Angles, Jutes, Saxons, and a few other Germanic Tribes, and that includes the Normans, which name itself is derived from Norsemen and they are also Germanic Tribes), are all invaders who usurped the aboriginal Britons and became a ruling elite who enslaved the aboriginal Britons.

    The United States of America are mainly European nations who usurped the Native American tribes.

    They are thus both nations who have taken by force of arms the sovereignty of another nation.

    Things were a bit different in Scotland. Yes the Normans got into power in Scotland but there was no Norman conquest in Scotland. Bruce and Wallace were both Norman Knights but they were absorbed into Scotland by intermarriage with the Scots Nobility. It still works like that today.

    We do not ghettoise incomers we absorb them and they become Scots and we adopt some of the incomer’s culture and are the better for it.

    Look around the World and there are many such states as England and the USA. Now why would such cultures favour the rights of sovereignty when their culture is based upon taking someone else’s sovereignty from them?

    Here’s a few – Australia, New Zealand, New Mexico and most of the South & Central American countries.

    What of the European mainland? Far as many such nations are concerned – Might is right and right is what they say it is.

    “I see and understand it, but the problem I have is applying it to Scotland. We do not need to prove our case for virgin UDI legitimacy to a sceptical World audience. Scotland is different.”

    Indeed Scotland is different but the problem is convincing other nations that we are different. Here’s a we anomaly for you. The United States Constitution and their own declaration of independence is firmly based on the Declaration of Arbroath but in their case those who were Declaring their independence had stolen the sovereignty of the native North American nations.

    ” … We are a rare phenomenon in the modern world,”

    Aye! and we were a rare phenomenon in the ancient World too in 1320 for example.

    “For Scottish Independence, we do not need to re-invent the wheel and persuade the world Scotland exists and has sovereign legitimacy.”

    No but we may need to prove that the wheel should remain round and not become square.

    ” … It is not sovereignty we need to create, it is a Union which needs its faux sovereignty to be exposed and dismantled.”

    Yes, Breeks but that is exactly what I’ve been preaching almost all my life. In any case it is not to create our sovereignty for I’ve always claimed we were sovereign from the day we told the World leaders of the day that we were and our king of that time had little choice but agree with us.

    ” … We do not need international recognition of Scottish sovereign legitimacy. What we need is international recognition of UK sovereign illegitimacy. It is not recognition of Scotland, but an end to the recognition of the UK.”

    Sorry to say that their really is the need to teach the World at large what the term, “United Kingdom”, means. That is it is a union of two equally sovereign kingdoms.

    I have been doing this for many long years. You can actually see the expression of foreign people’s faces change when you explain the simple facts to them that the United Kingdom is neither a country nor is it England.

    With that idea planted in their brain they acquire a totally different viewpoint. It changes a wee bit more when you explain to them that The UK is not all of Britain and there are another four, non-Westminster, bits of Britain.

    Believe me the hardest people to get to accept the truth are the Scots buts, followed closely by the English/Welsh and N. Irish.
    Now yes, through a democratic majority, Scotland can elect to walk away from that Union, and expect to recognised as an independent state. That’s everyone’s neat and tidy Option 1.
    However there is an Option 2. If the Act of Union represents a false state of affairs, specifically where it usurps Scottish sovereignty without legal authority for doing so, then the contract of Union becomes void through its lack of fundamental competency.
    It’s like a mundane business contract signed by a minor, or person registered as insane. The contract is void because there is no competency in law. It’s terms are unenforceable so the whole contract is meaningless. The Act of Union, whether by its actual terms or conventional interpretation, has assumed the right to subjugate Scotland’s sovereignty, but it has never had appropriate authority to do so, and thus there is no legal competence to the concept of singular joined “UK” sovereignty.
    Independence is not about proving Scotland exists, it’s about proving the UK properly cannot exist and enjoy legal competence.
    I believe that puts Scotland in a completely different set of circumstances in how a UDI needs to be interpreted. We are not creating an awkward precedent from thin air, we extricating our already recognised constitutional purity from a long misunderstood bùrach. I hate the word purity for its blood and soil connotations, but drop the connotations please because it’s the correct word to use.
    To give it a modern parallel, why are we not calling Brexit a UDI? Isn’t the UK just taking back a “Sovereignty” first conceded then revoked by volition? It’s the same thing isn’t it?
    It is UK sovereignty which empowers the UK to exit Europe arbitrarily. It is Scottish sovereignty which empowers Scotland to exit the UK arbitrarily. So why should we allow one be held as a controversially charged UDI but not the other?

  339. heraldnomore says:

    Kez currently gibbering utter mince with La Hartley-Brewer. Labour’s going to win the GE, dontcha know. No progressive alliance, cause that worked well for Miliband didn’t it…

  340. Macart says:

    Just don’t go out there today guys. The right wing meeja are in full on ‘V’ for Vendetta mode. Y’know “Strength Through Unity, Unity Through Faith” kinda thing.

    Deeply scary. 😯

  341. jfngw says:

    It was quite clear that the SNP MP’s required to abstain on the GE vote. Any other action would have been used by the Tories/media as them submitting to the Tory agenda and it being used as a block on any Indyref. By abstaining it makes the point that the mandate for a referendum has already been passed and the GE is irrelevant in this respect.

  342. Robert Graham says:

    Despite the media portraying Mayhems visit to eh the north as a great success ,a clip on the canary shows a taxi driver giving his opinion of her ,and then being spoken to by the Police , i just wonder how much the media are not showing of mother teresa’s reception from and by ordinary people .

  343. heedtracker says:

    “Westminster Parliament is full of many folk that, on the whole, are good people that care about their country and their people and would never want to oppress anyone.”

    Tories are not good people sensibledave, if only because their power is based on naked greed, electoral fraud and cheating, Brit nationalism, extreme pro tory BBC led and coordinated propaganda and war.

    It is not a “good people” thing sensibledave

  344. Bob Mack says:

    Quote : “Parliament is full of good people that would never want to oppress anyone”” Ha ha ha ha. Still laughing at that one from Dave boy.
    I think we all remember the last twenty years of desolation in the Middle east for a start.

    Parliament is the biggest oppressor of people in the European sphere. The poor don’t do too well either under their rule.

  345. Liz g says:

    I would also like to agree with those who are saying that there has to be a specific vote to revoke the Treaty of the Union.
    Well at least at this point in time anyway.

    Only if a direct vote (referendum) is subverted should we then look at the indirect method of giving our MPs the instruction that we are no longer to governed under the terms of that Treaty through a General Election.

    I have never understood why the term UDI is ever used in relation to Scotland, and even to some extent Independence!
    As we were only ever looking at the merits of a Treaty.

    I personally have never held that the Treaty of the Union to have been ligitamate up and until the 18th September 2014.
    That’s when the Treaty was ratified by the people of Scotland,it was never previously really agreed to as far as I can tell.
    And yes I know not everyone had the vote, I am speaking of those who could vote in any given century.

    The oldest most successful Union in the world “My Aunt Fanny” it took the bloody thing 307yrs to get ratified and then went on to last….. I wanna say 4yrs??

  346. Free Scotland says:

    Let me quote your own words to you, sensibledave – from 8:54

    “When that happens, then not only will Westminster take notice, it will grant the Independence the majority want … just like the offer last time.”

    I then wrote: “Anyone who talks about Westminster “granting” Scotland her independence is a political ignoramus.”

    You then wrote: ” I assume that was aimed at me.”

    Good to see that you recognise yourself as a political ignoramus.

  347. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    The National:

    “General Election ‘throws a grenade into peace process’ in Northern Ireland”

    Kathleen Nutt, Journalist /
    ATTEMPTS to resolve Northern Ireland’s political crisis have been made more difficult by the snap General Election, Sinn Féin and the SDLP have warned.

    SDLP leader Colum Eastwood accused Theresa May of throwing “a grenade into the middle” of the peace process.

    Michelle O’Neill, Sinn Féin leader in the region, said the Prime Minister had shown a “blatant disregard” to the people of Northern Ireland.

    Talks have reconvened between Stormont’s political parties and the British and Irish governments in a bid to restore the collapsed institutions. However, Eastwood said that by calling a General Election the Prime Minister has sacrificed the opportunity for Stormont parties to reach an agreement to restore the power-sharing government.

    He said the announcement of a General Election has now thrown the process into uncertainty. Eastwood admitted it was now going to be “very difficult” to reach a deal by the deadline of early May.

    “The British Prime Minister threw a grenade into the middle of our peace process. She has sacrificed the opportunity for progress.

    “That doesn’t mean we are walking away, we are still here. We will keep meeting until we can get this powersharing establishment up and running. The British Government seems to have walked away from it. They need to get back around the table,” said Eastwood.

    He added: “While Theresa May goes off and tries to destroy the British Labour Party we still have a job to do in Northern Ireland and we are not about to give up on that.”

    “It’s a pity the British Government thinks so little of Northern Ireland that they call an election in the middle of our talks process.”

    O’Neill said the Prime Minister’s announcement of a General Election was about “the Tory Party’s self-interest”.

    “Theresa May has shown a blatant disregard for the people of the north again. We remain committed to trying to find a way through these issues, albeit it is more complicated because of Theresa May’s decision,” she added.

    Deputy leader of the Democratic Unionist Party, Nigel Dodds, said the announcement during political discussions was “unfortunate”. However, he added that the DUP was ready to form an executive in Northern Ireland. “We do not believe in setting red lines and preconditions above issues affecting health, education and the future of our public services. So that Executive is being held up by others,” he said.

    Stormont’s parties have yet to reach agreement on forming an executive six weeks after the Assembly election.

    Talks to save devolution stalled before Easter with little hope of a deal.

    Northern Ireland’s two largest parties, and former power-sharing partners, the DUP and Sinn Féin, have spent weeks blaming each for the failure to restore the institutions.

    Long-running rows over a proposed Irish language Act and deep divisions over how to deal with the legacy of the Troubles are holding up a deal.

    Sinn Féin also want the former DUP First Minister Arlene Foster to step aside while a public inquiry is completed into a botched renewable energy scheme which overspent by £400m. The scandal surrounding the Renewable Heat Initiative, which was set up by Foster when she was economy minster, led to the collapse of the power-sharing administration in January.

    Northern Ireland’s then deputy first minister and Sinn Féin veteran, the late Martin McGuinness, resigned over Foster’s refusal to stand aside.

    The collapse led to an Assembly election last month which for the first time resulted in a non-Unionist majority at Stormont and renewed discussion of a United Ireland.

    Yesterday it emerged the Ulster Unionist Party is to have talks with the Democratic Unionists about an electoral pact in the “next few days”.

    Tom Elliott, the Ulster Unionist MP for Fermanagh and South Tyrone was elected in 2015 with DUP support. In May 2015, the DUP and UUP agreed pacts in four constituencies, including Fermanagh and South Tyrone – the UK’s most tightly- contested seat.

    The pact helped Elliott take the seat from Sinn Féin’s Michelle Gildernew – she had held on to it by just four votes in 2010.

    Elliott told the BBC it was important that the “people of Northern Ireland have representation at Westminster” and said talks with the DUP would take place in the days ahead to secure the “best agreement around some constituencies”.

  348. Ken500 says:

    Caroline Lucas voted against more powers for Scotland at Westminster

  349. Breeks says:

    For brevity, something I’m not very good at, let me boil down my previous comment to a few short lines.

    Scotland does not require a UDI to define a new and unknown country. We do not seek to legitimise a new country, but instead to de-legitimise a Union, a faulty Union upheld by established convention, but critically flawed in its fundamental competence.

    We don’t need to declare Independence, we only need to challenge the concept of “joined” UK sovereignty, a highly dubious absolute UK sovereignty being wholly irreconcilable with a clear and absolute Scottish sovereignty.

    A referendum, or democratic mandate is the tool we might use to decide whether or not to challenge the UK’s parliamentary sovereignty, but the principle and absolute nature of sovereignty is impervious to democratic opinion.

    I believe Nicola Sturgeon has made one strategic mistake which she needs to rethink. The resolution of the Scottish Independence should not end up in a Constitutional Courtroom, it should begin there.

  350. Thepnr says:

    Thanks Nana and welcome back, opened everyone of you links will give me something to read on the way home xx

  351. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    The National:

    “Seven seats to watch at the 2017 General Election”

    Andrew Learmonth and Kathleen Nutt
    Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale & Tweeddale
    Scotland’s lone Conservative MP David Mundell will be fighting to hold on to his seat. If he loses and the Tories fail to gain any other seat north of the Border the result will be deeply symbolic and could leave the country without a single Tory representative in the Commons. Mundell, who is also the Scottish Secretary, regained the seat in 2015 with a slim majority of just 798 votes over the SNP’s Emma Harper, elected to the Scottish Parliament last year.

    Labour was third behind Mundell in May 2015, with Ukip fourth and the LibDems fifth while the Scottish Greens came sixth with 839 votes.

    Edinburgh South
    Labour’s Ian Murray became the “last man standing” of Scottish Labour when the party lost 40 of its 41 seats in the May 2015 General Election. A critic of Jeremy Corbyn, he stood down as shadow Scottish secretary during the parliamentary coup against the UK leader which followed the EU referendum.

    Murray held on to his seat in 2015, beating the SNP’s Neil Hay by 2637 votes with the Conservatives coming in third.

    In an election dominated by the themes of Brexit and the prospect of a second independence referendum Murray will be vulnerable.

    Renfrewshire East
    In one of the many surprises of the 2015 General Election, the SNP’s Kirsten Oswald beat the then Scottish Labour leader Jim Murphy by 23,013 to 19,295 votes. The Tories came third with 12,465 seats.

    Jackson Carlaw took the roughly parallel Holyrood seat of Eastwood for the Tories at last year’s Scottish Parliament elections, and the Tories will be campaigning hard to win it in June.

    Glasgow East
    The SNP took this seat off Labour’s Margaret Curran in 2015 with a 30 per cent swing, giving them a majority of 10,387. However, their winning candidate Natalie McGarry has been charged with with several alleged offences, including embezzlement of funds, breach of trust and an offence under the Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013.

    The Crown Office are still considering the case.

    McGarry will not be the SNP’s candidate in June. A few names have come forward. Ex-North Lanarkshire councillor Rosa Zambonini, activist and assistant to Alison Thewliss, and David Linden have put themselves forward. The National understands other potential names being discussed are Yes Bar owner Suzanne McLaughlin and Duncan Ross, who lost out to McGarry at the last selection by a handful of votes.

    Edinburgh West
    Michelle Thomson has also taken leave from the SNP. She too has been reported to Scottish prosecutors after a police investigation into alleged mortgage fraud. Christopher Hales, who is being investigated by Police Scotland, was struck off by the Scottish Solicitors’ Discipline Tribunal in 2014 in connection with several transactions carried out by a property company in which Thomson was a partner from 2010 to 2011. The Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service say the report remains under consideration.

    Orkney and Shetland
    Alistair Carmichael, the only sitting MP to be found guilty of lying to his constituents, is to ask those same voters to trust him this time and give him their support.

    He repeatedly lied about the leak of a civil service memo meant to damage Nicola Sturgeon’s credibility during the last election campaign. He only told the truth after winning by just 817 votes. The resulting court case cost the MP £150,000.

    Yesterday, as the dust settled on Theresa May’s surprise announcement he was one of the key faces, appearing on radio and TV, asking voters to choose the LibDems.

    Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk
    The SNP’s Calum Kerr has the smallest majority in Scotland. There were just 328 votes between him and Tory candidate John Lamont.

    This has long been fighting ground between the Liberals and the Tories. Even in their wildest dreams the SNP didn’t expect to win here in 2015.

  352. sensibledave says:

    Free Scotland 10:36 am

    You wrote “Good to see that you recognise yourself as a political ignoramus.”

    You are an idiot Free Scotland. Ms Sturgeon has made much of the fact that she wants Ms May and Westminster to grant her the freedom to hold a referendum. Why sis Ms Sturgeon “asking” if she doent think permission needs to be granted?

    Implicitly, Ms Sturgeon accepts that Westminster needs to grant permission for there to be a referendum. And, BTW, even Ms Sturgeon knows that the majority of SCots dont want a referendum at this time – which is why she isnt doing it unilaterally.

    If I am wrong, please tell me why Ms Sturgeon isnt arranging for a referendum.

  353. yesindyref2 says:

    Thanks for the links, but take it easy, pace yourself!

    This is a very highly significant paper, detailed as it is about “Scotland’s Transition to EU Membership: What Would it Take?”. Absolutely brilliant, delighted to see what we hope would be, is indeed considered possible – specially the staying in the EEA part meanwhile during our formal accelerated application and ratification process (with optional contributions).

  354. Meg merrilees says:

    Well done the people of Bolton – loved that Nana, thank you and welcome back.

    Apparently the buzz words for the conservatives in this campaign are ‘Strong and stable”.
    THeresa may used them 13 times in her speech in Bolton last night.

    Makes a change from ‘pooling and sharing’.

    Remember them folks, we’ll hear them a lot

  355. Thepnr says:

    @Robert Louis

    Great post Robert and I agree with every word. Only hard work will this. Get in there.

  356. Abulhaq says:

    The stunt/coup has succeeded. The official opposition should have voted against but didn’t. All rather pathetic. However,the SNP, our party of independence just in case it’s forgotten, have now been handed an opportunity to really diss and ditch the Brit state system and get us out of this historic, toxic psychological dependency whose apotheosis is unionism. The independence movement can appear very tame and cautious. Given the raw politics now operating in the British state surely time to reboot and sharpen the attitude.

  357. yesindyref2 says:

    @Sensibledave “Implicitly, Ms Sturgeon accepts that Westminster needs to grant permission for there to be a referendum.

    Not at all, she accepts as did Salmond, that that is the easier route, one which produces a binding referendum and one which Westminster will have to act on. There are other ways.

    And, BTW, even Ms Sturgeon knows that the majority of SCots dont want a referendum at this time

    “at this time”, no, if “at this time” means NOW, but between autumn 2018 and spring 2019 about half of Scotland if not more now, want another referendum. That’s what the polls actually show, as opposed to the way the media misreports it.

  358. schrodingers cat says:

    It isnt a question of westminster granting scotland its independence, nor is it about allowing nicola to run #scotref. as far as i am aware, anyone can run a referendum, (and nicola undoubtably has a mandate to hold scotref) and westminster doesnt have the power to forbid, stop or however one wants to phrase it, #scotref

    it is a question of westminster agreeing to a section 30 order.
    once agreed, if it is a yes win in the #scotref, all other countries will accept scotlands independence as a faite accomplis. why would they do otherwise?
    with a section 30 order, no one can or will doubt scotlands sovereign ability to vote for and become independent.
    also, with a section 30 order, the yoons in scotland would have no choice but to participate in #scotref.

    the tories present position is to say, scotland could hold #scotref but shouldnt (not sure what this actually means, other than they accept nicola can run #scotref whether they like it or not) and also to say “no the now”.
    Which is odd since Nicola wasnt asking to hold #scotref now but in sept 18-19, she was asking for a section 30.
    while waiting for the reply, treeza has announce a ge

    what I will be watching out for is corbyn being asked if he is the next pm or leader of the opposition, will he agree and vote for the section 30 or against it.

    the same will be asked of treeza, indeed, the tory manifesto may mention this specifically and be used as a mandate to refuse nicola
    a section 30

    we will see

  359. JaceF says:

    Anybody know when Purdah began for the Council Elections, when it has to start for the GE given it’s seven weeks away? And if the GE announcement means a breach of Scottish Council election Purdah?

  360. yesindyref2 says:

    Theresa May: “Strong and stable”

    With any luck our horse will already have bolted when they shut the stable doors.

  361. Nana says:


    Safe journey home Pnr.

    @yesindyref2 My intentions are good re taking it easy. Volunteers coming forward to do my ironing as we speak. At least in the virtual reality world of off topic.

    @Meg The taxi driver was terrific. The press are determined to only show stage managed rot to make TM appear strong and stable, her trip to Bolton shows what real people think of her. I’m seeing a lot more negative comments about her from tweeters down south, far more than positive ones which I reckon are being generated by the torys themselves. They are the ‘con’ party after all helped by the crooked media.

  362. dakk says:

    “Westminster Parliament is full of many folk that, on the whole, are good people that care about their country and their people and would never want to oppress anyone.”

    If you consider a Parliament which votes to commit genocide through illegal wars and covers up paedophile rings within it’s ranks for decades as being full of ‘good people’ then may God forgive you.

  363. Capella says:

    “Weak and chaotic” more like. Driven to a snap election to bolster their power. May’s government is the most shambolic I can remember. Anthony Eden is probably the nearest rival for shambolism with his Suez disaster.

  364. Free Scotland says:

    Just as anyone who talks about Westminster “granting” Scotland her independence is a political ignoramus,”
    so the person who writes “sis” instead of “is” and “doent” instead of “doesn’t,” and who seems incapable of mastering the correct use of the apostrophe (don’t/isn’t) is an orthographic ignoramus. That that same person then has the brass neck to refer to someone as an idiot further compounds his status as an ignorant troll.

  365. liz says:

    @BBC Scotland tells.
    Eastwood is half of East Ren. Barrhead & Neilston the other ‘half’and I doubt they would ever vote Tory.

    SNP came second in the Eastwood district in the Holyrood elections, increasing the % vote by 7%,

    Carlaw got 36% & Maxwell got 31% and T Arthur got 48% of the vote in Barrhead.
    So I think Kirsten Oswald should be safe

  366. Nana says:

    Barry Gardiner makes Adam Boulton squirm. We need more like this

    video here

  367. JIm says:

    I am maybe being a bit dense here but how can someone write this:

    “No alliance with nationalists who want to divide our country. Also, ten years of tax cuts isn’t what I’d call “progressive”.

    When the Scottish Government only received income tax powers in 2016?

  368. Bob Mack says:

    To everyone ,

    Ms Sturgeon is quite the novice is she not ? Having cluelessly led the SNP to their largest ever historical victory, she tells everybody she has a plan for the referendum mark 2

    Obviously nobody believes that to be true when we all offer methods and suggestions to help her construct a “sensible” strategy instead courtesy of ourselves.

    Makes you wonder how successful we could be if we had a capable leader instead of ms sturgeon. When all the rest of the UK mechanisms of State have tried to destroy us as well over the past 10 years, she is still in the game. Lucky I guess.

  369. seanair says:

    On Scottish Housing News blog it is reported today that the Tories have promised to build 100,000 houses in Scotland by 2030.
    To get this would mean the Tories winning the next Scottish Parliament elections (ha,ha), or teaming up with Labour/Liberal (very unlikely).
    It would also mean getting lots of money from Teresa (very unlikely).
    This needs to be challenged at every opportunity and shown to be Tory rubbish.

  370. schrodingers cat says:

    re the seats labour lost, I havent seen any resurgence in slabs fortunes in scotland, dont expect to see one either, ergo, the snp gains from slab are not the weakest seats in scotland.
    (yoon media only interested in snpbad scandal in natally mcgarry ‘s seat areas.)

    unfortunately, with the fptp system and a low turnout of snp voters in any of the former slab strongholds, might allow 1 or 2 slab candidates to slip through, like ian murray did in edinburgh

    our weakest seats are the ones where the tories and libdems were in second place in 2015

    thats why i would add NEFife to this list, although we have the best new snp MP on the block with stephen gethins

    this lists needs to include the holyrood constituencies that the libdems and tories won in holyrood 2016

    Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale & Tweeddale
    Conservative MP David Mundell a slim majority of just 798 votes

    Edinburgh South
    slabs ian Murray held on beating the SNP by 2637 votes

    Renfrewshire East
    SNP’s Kirsten Oswald beat Jim Murphy by 23,013 to 19,295 votes. The Tories came third with 12,465 seats.

    Glasgow East
    SNP Natalie McGarry Margaret Curran an SNP majority of 10,387. Natalie McGarry NOT standing again

    Edinburgh West
    snp Michelle Thomson 21,378
    Libdems 18,168
    unsure of her position at the mo but the yoons will target this seat big time regardless

    Orkney and Shetland
    Alistair Carmichael,

    Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk
    SNP’s Calum Kerr has the smallest majority in Scotland. 328 votes

  371. sensibledave says:

    Abulhaq 11:03 am

    You Wrote “The stunt/coup has succeeded. The official opposition should have voted against but didn’t. All rather pathetic.”

    1. I am not sure that calling a Westminster General Election can be called a “stunt”!?!?! Voting on English laws on foxhunting when you said categorically that you wouldn’t is a stunt – not calling for a General Election!

    2. Unfortunately we don’t know the SNP’s official position – because they didn’t vote and haven’t therefore expressed a view. …. Glass houses Abulhaq?

    The general Election result will produce a lot of clarity. Whoever wins will have a mandate from the electorate based upon whatever their manifesto is.

    In SCotland, we will be able to see if the SNP is right in its assertion that a majority of Scots want indyref2.

    Labour will find out if their leader is a Messiah or a just a mess.

    UKIP will be told whether they are a busted flush or not.

    The Lib Dems will find out if the “48%” will switch to them and they can form the government (I was one of the 48% – but I wont be voting for them).

    The Tories will find out, probably exclusively with respect to Brexit, whether they have support from the country for their current plans.

  372. Jim says:

    Either a crime has been commited or it hasn’t and if so, how can a re-running of the G.E manage to stop a police investigation?

  373. schrodingers cat says:

    thanks for that, it is exactly the sort of local information we need to target the right seats

    does anyone know about edinburgh western holyrood constituency (cole hamilton lib dem toss pot) and how it compares to the westminster constituency?

  374. heedtracker says:

    Ligger Neil’s BBC Daily Politics boots up today, first guests, Nigel Farage and the last UKIP leader with the weird mouth, will Nigel stand again?

  375. schrodingers cat says:

    east dumbartonshire

    snp John Nicolson 22,093
    LibDem Jo Swinson 19,926

    swinton has declared as candidate and was the mp for this area for 10 years

    this will be the highest targeted seat by the scot libdems, they will pay the postman to deliver all their leaflets

  376. heedtracker says:

    The general Election result will produce a lot of clarity. Whoever wins will have a mandate from the electorate based upon whatever their manifesto is.”

    But Brexit is Brexit sensible. No matter which way England goes, tory roasters like the ones in No.10 now, or whatever it JC’s strange mob are planning.

    Some clarity. Its a stunt sensible, a spivy sneaky creepy toryboy stunt, when UK gov really should be getting on with the day Brexit job too.

    Only in the demented UK zone sensibledave.

  377. call me dave says:

    No love lost there then at FMQs but Ruthie given a flea in her ear. 🙂

    Oh FGS! Deputy Dugdale asks why the SNP didn’t vote against the Tories yesterday.

    In some contorted way she says that the labour MPs did the right thing in bringing on quick election and not taking the chance to let the Tories to stew a bit waiting on possible prosecutions and a narrowing of the Tory majority.

    Still Kezia persists the ‘Scottish’ labour ‘twig’ party has lost the plot

    Sturgeon in good form and a wee bit more hard edged it seems. 🙂

    Love to see the shortbread highlights later.

    Not even going to listen to Wee Wullie.

  378. shiregirl says:

    Not on twitter but looking at New tory candidates being discussed.

    I didn’t realise that Pauline Winchester was a Litigation Coordinator for the NHS and is standing as a C&U candidate – on Linkedin.

  379. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    schrodingers cat @ 11:50:

    I havent seen any resurgence in slabs fortunes in scotland, dont expect to see one either, ergo, the snp gains from slab are not the weakest seats in scotland.

    Yes, a reasonable argument, as is your other one re Tories and LibDems. Will trad. Labour voters continue to defect to the SNP, simply stay at home, or even vote Tory in a futile dog-in-manger fashion (as the likes of Hothersall seem to prefer)? The local elections will likely gives us a very strong steer on that, since it’s far easier to vote tactically in those. My guess is mainly a mixture of the first two options. There are a lot of middle-class former Labourites very upset about Brexit, and they don’t like Corbyn much either. I don’t see any reason why SNP turnout will be reduced. Ian Murray must be a very worried man now.

    As to the yellow and blue Tories, I could see their supporters voting anti-SNP tactically, even in areas where Tory-Liberal rivalries were historically strong. Except that the two parties are polar opposites over Brexit. That alone may prevent any widespread informal realignment by voters, which is quite ironic really.

    FPTP elections and voters are both notoriously fickle, so realistically speaking, I think the SNP (even with some tactical assistance from the Greens) will be able to count it a major success if they manage to retain every single seat they currently hold, let alone wipe out the Tories again north of the border. (However juicy a prospect it would be for Toom Tabard to get the old heave-ho.)

    So, be prepared to lose a small number of excellent MPs, possibly including Gethins (and endure the ensuing false “peak SNP” jibes), and be exceedingly jubilant if not. We can but hope that their excellent constituency record will deservedly see them through.

  380. John H says:

    seanair says:
    20 April, 2017 at 11:49 am

    On Scottish Housing News blog it is reported today that the Tories have promised to build 100,000 houses in Scotland by 2030.
    To get this would mean the Tories winning the next Scottish Parliament elections (ha,ha), or teaming up with Labour/Liberal (very unlikely).

    Or taking back powers from Holyrood.

  381. K1 says:

    Thanks for all the juicy links Nana and welcome back… 🙂

  382. geeo says:

    @robert peffers and Thepnr.

    I absolutely agree the Yes campaign must take a majority with them to independence.

    This is why I suggested a scenario in my (rather lengthy) post where the SNP manifesto could include a caveat where a majority of MP’s coupled with 50% plus 1 vote would be considered the end of the union and see Scotland independent.

    I also went on to say that this could be put in front of the UN before the election.

    This would inform the UN and address formally with the UN that the tories are denying us the electorally and parliamentary mandated referendum we seek.

    The purpose being, ensuring we get the referendum on our terms and in our timeline.

    Basically, it is our way or we turn the GE into a defacto referendum with the UN informed beforehand, that we are taking this course of action due to WM defying the Sovereign will of the Scottish people.

    Theresa would pop an eyeball presented with that scenario !

  383. Breeks says:

    @Robert Peffers 10:15

    It’s true what you say Robert, but then you look at the Declaration of Arbroath; the template for the written constitution of the United States, and recently recognised as a UNESCO Memory of the World.

    It is the nucleus of our Scottish constitution. Scotland is the documented source of this principle, properly recognised in its day, and ever present throughout 7 centuries of wars and turmoil, and it has survived it all, still sound both in its fabric and it’s principle.

    If we can be the privileged people of Scotland, empowered by a global Memory of the World, which forms the root constitution of every modern Republic, not least the mighty USA, then how can that International community with any kind of grace, dispute the authenticity of Scotland’s legitimate sovereignty? What country anywhere in the world can document its sovereignty any better than Scotland?

    The Declaration of Arbroath is the source of the Nile in constitutional terms, the point of origin for so much that flows beyond, often very far removed from Scotland.

    I do not see how the UN, and the USA especially, or indeed our friends in Europe, might in any good conscience justify a decision not to recognise an Independent Scotland. That would see the UN declaring our ancient document to be a celebrated Memory of the World on one hand, then proceding to tear it up with the other. I just don’t see that happening.

    Scotland’s sovereignty wasn’t a flash in the pan. It was forged in the teeth of threatened and actual war and military invasion. It was a defence mechanism. It was recognised, established, and survived centuries of war, treason, and forlorn justice. At no time has it been rescinded nor it’s principle contested, until the Act of Union came along. An Act of Union which pays lip service to the Scottish Kingdom, but in its arrogance, does not grasp the essential principle of Scotland’s civic sovereignty. Scottish sovereignty is a watertight argument they cannot overturn, so instead it is obscured and subjugated, and kept subjugated by intimidation, bribery and misrepresentation of the truth. The Scots are fed a diet of UK propaganda, and given little choice but to accept the narrative and the con survives.

    And yet, after 310 years of faux Parliament and “undisputed convention”, there is still the drip, drip, drip, of Constitutional acid from Scotland’s subjugated sovereignty which every day, corrodes away a little more of the false Union.

    Everywhere you look there is more precedent, the UK itself defines itself to the UN as two countries, a Principality and a Province. If it wasn’t for the irreconcilable distinction of Scotland’s inalienable sovereignty, that definition would see the UK defining itself as one country… but it can’t.

    And don’t forget too, for the international community, but especially the UN, to not recognise an Independent Scotland, would require them to reaffirm their recognition of what Scotland is, if it is not a sovereign country. The UN would thus have to define what the UK is. The UN that is, comprised of Nations where one in three had to secure their own sovereign independence from the British definition of sovereignty.

    Would Scotland be recognised? Yes. I can only believe it would. There is no sense in any other conclusion. Frankly, I don’t even think the English would contest it.

  384. Jack Murphy says:

    The BBC gives advice to young new voters!
    Accompanied by photos of guess which Party Leaders?

    Yes,dear reader you got it in one! 🙁

    “Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn and Tim Farron of the Liberal Democrats will take on Theresa May’s Conservatives”.

    NOT A MENTION of the House of Common’s third largest Party!

    I’ll consign my adjectives about our dear Establishment UKOK BBC to the dustbin and merely state:- ‘They Know Not What They Do.’

    It’s make your mind up time—-why are they doing it?

    Yes dear reader,again,you got it in one. 🙁

  385. Liz g says:

    Breeks @ 1.29
    What you are saying makes perfect sense but how do you see the role of the 2014 No vote ?
    In theory it could be said that the Sovereignty of the Scot’s was acknowledged and acted upon.
    The result being that the Sovereign Scottish people wished to have their government conducted from Westminster under it’s (Westminster’s) arrangements?,as per the 1707 Treaty?
    All this “once in a generation shit….That the BBC have pronounced to be 25yrs….. I think is pointing to how they would argue it in an international court.
    They won’t deny our Sovereignty at all …Just point to how it was given reign in 2014!
    Then argue that it’s just a subversive elements in Scotland who are trying to destabilise the British Government.

  386. K1 says:

    Ah think your last sentence Liz pretty much sums up how they are going to try to make the GE fit that narrative. By arguing (ludicrously) that SNP’s vote share is somehow the indicator of whether Scotland polity wants Scotsref? So we’re already through the glass on that score.

    We can only keep hammering the obvious point that vote share does not play a part in deciding the outcome in FPTP elections, majority of seats is what counts. They are banking on traction with that argument precisely because the Tory vote share will potentially rise in England but the same logic applies, it still comes down to number of seats returned to ensure a majority in Westminster parliament.

    But it’s the ‘psychological’ aspect that they are pushing with this schtick. If sufficient numbers of Labour and what remains of Libdem voters tactically back the Tories in Scotland, they would in terms of vote share be seen as ‘eating’ into the SNP’s dominance. And it is this that they are really aiming for to delegitimise Scotref?

    If that narrative gains real traction and we are up against the entire establishment’s media arm in this regard, then as far as the Tories and Labour (Westminster) are concerned…job done.

    It’s up to us to completely alter and refocus the narrative over and over again from here on in. Many hundreds of thousands of Scots don’t necessarily ‘get’ the sovereignty aspects, slowly but surely aye we’re getting that message through, but right now all our energies need to be solely focused on obliterating that narrative.

    We have our mandate for Scotref from HE. Majority seats count in FPTP, not vote share. Tories forever or independence.

  387. North chiel says:

    Geeo@ 0101pm, however, is it not the case that we would not be ” maximising the independence vote “as 16-18 year olds would not be voting . Also what is position of EU citizens now resident in Scotland ? Are they ” allowed” to vote on June 8th.
    Surely the Green vote would have to be included in 50 percent plus1 calculation?

  388. colin alexander says:

    Mr Corbyn is using the GE to clear the decks of right-wing Blairites aka Red Tories.

    The Blairites are using it to get rid of Mr Corbyn.

    The Blue Tories must be over the moon about it.

    The SNP – what do they stand for now?

  389. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    colin alexander @ 16:13:

    The SNP – what do they stand for now?

    Err, Colin, you’ve really not been paying attention there at the back of the class, have you…? =laugh=

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