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Running to stand still

Posted on February 08, 2016 by

A revealing moment from a meeting of the UK parliament’s Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee last Tuesday, featuring the former Secretary of State for Scotland, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean.

Who knew, eh?

The PACAC’s hearings aren’t transcribed in Hansard, so we’ll just put that line in writing for ease of future quoting:

“My own view is that it has suddenly dawned on… the Scottish Government that the effect of these changes will be that Scotland will have less money and may find itself having to put up taxes in order to stay where it is.”

 Just so we’re all clear where we’re up to.

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    1. 08 02 16 12:44

      Running to stand still | Speymouth

    527 to “Running to stand still”

    1. Jim Mitchell says:

      Having difficulty containing his smirk!

    2. X_Sticks says:

      So Scotland will have to pay a premium to protect it’s people from the United Kingdom?

      There must surely be some folk who voted NO that are now questioning that decision.

      This union is now so screwed up I don’t think anything will fix it now. The only way is OUT.

    3. bobajock says:

      But Labour, Tory, LibLiars … they decided what Scotland needed? Can Kezia ask her mates the Tories and Liars (I’m excising the Lib from now on) why they decided to screw Scotland?

      Don’t blame the SNP for Smith Kezia, you are one of the unionist parties who imposed your London view on Scotland.

      I despise Labour – mostly for their stupidity now. Tories, its expected, Liars – meh – they lie.

    4. Doug Daniel says:

      He must be wrong, we were told it was independence that would cause Scotland to have to put up taxes. Voting No was going to protect us from that, thanks to the broad shoulders of the UK and the polling and sharing and all that jazz.

      Surely they weren’t… y’know… lying all along? No, it can’t be, they’d never do that to us.

    5. Bob Mack says:

      But, but, but. They love us. We are equals in the Union.

      So I’ve heard.

    6. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Is this same great big-hitter who is being drafted into the pro EU Official campaign?

      We’ll just have to pay more money to live in Scotland and where we were wrt the EU where Cameron hasn’t won a magic bean in his defiant negotiations.

      They are really treating us like idiots, ably abetted by clowns like Forsyth.

    7. Davie Park says:

      Think he’s trying to imply that it’s only the maternal indulgence of the UK that’s keeping us afloat.

    8. Tartan Tory says:

      The regretable certainty is that the whole of the UK has less money (due to overspend and a lack of revenue – including N.Sea revenue) and may find itself needing to increase taxes in an attempt to stand still too.

      The upshot is that Scottish taxpayers will potentially get a double whammy of tax increases just to stay where they are.

      I am almost starting to believe that there is a secret new Westminster plan! They might well have realised that the (oil) revenue stream from north of the border is a lost cause, and that the Scottish Government will not accept having to make such tax increases. Maybe Westminster have begun to accept the inevitablity of independence and are working to rape the last that they can from their territory in the north, before letting it go as a wasteland.

    9. onelessday says:

      Sorry so soon but I thought everyone would be keen to know Carmichael has NOT been awarded expenses

    10. Ken500 says:

      Forsyth, Thatcher henchman. Thatcher illegally and secretly took Scottish Oil resources and spent it on London S/E. Canary Wharf, Tilbury Docks etc. The equivalent of a £220Billion Oil Fund.

      Scotland would not have to put up taxes to pay for Trident/illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. HMRC are not fit for purpose. The Oil sector is taxed at 60%. The price has fallen 75%. Costing thousands of jobs. Google pay 3% tax.

      Gas from one project can power 2Million homes. Renewables supplied power for half of Scotland’s needs. Scotland would be better off Independent.

      Brown invited Thatcher to tea.

    11. muttley79 says:

      I disagree with Michael Forsyth. I think the SG have known for a considerable time that the Smith Commission agreement was unworkable. But they could not be seen to reject it so soon after the No vote. I suspect that they have been waiting for some time to pass, and the right moment to reject it because of the loss to the budget. The no detriment principle has given them away out.

    12. Inverclyder says:

      Kezia will ride in on a donkey with APD money any minute!

    13. Capella says:

      He’s wrong about the sudden dawn. We always knew how the Westminster Establishment lies and thieves. That is why we are “the nationalists”.

      The public debate and scrutiny will start after 14th February. Happy Valentine’s Day!

    14. Grouse Beater says:

      The Myth Commission is typical of Scotland’s ‘gifts’ from Westminster.

      Diplomatically we had to join in to see if we could make it better … but it was always going to be a farce, a package holiday where the planes are hours late, the passengers ugly tourists, weather and hotel crap, the food stale.

    15. Dan Huil says:

      Has it suddenly dawned on Forsyth that devolution doesn’t kill nationalism stone dead? Ony mair stanes tae return tae Scotland, Mike?

    16. Macart says:

      Suddenly dawned?

      He really does condescending and patronising rather well doesn’t he?

      Naw, pretty much anybody paying attention in the past sixteen months could see the car crash that Smith and the Scotland Bill was going to become.

      Too many of the usual suspects queuing up to play party politics for a GE and punish the Scots at the same time. Unfortunately for them the Scottish Government were paying attention, which is kinda why the bill is in a bit o bother.

      I’d say the actuality of the situation is the polar opposite of Forsyth’s snotty sound bite. I’d say that it has suddenly dawned on the Westminster parties that the SG aren’t simply going to roll over for them. 🙂

    17. Craig P says:

      It is the fact that income tax is the *only* money-raising power being offered that lets us know it is a trap. Income tax is the most visible of all taxes, yet brings in only 30% of UK revenue. (In Scotland, which has more assets but lower incomes, I suspect income tax covers an even lower percentage.) By only being able to vary income tax and no other taxes or borrowing, the effects of any budget changes will fall very visibly in the Scottish pay packet.

      The unionists of course hope that the Scottish Government will be the ones to take the flak for that and the media will be helping them. It is up to the rest of us to get the true message out.

    18. Brian McHugh says:

      Great news Onelessday. I just saw the video from Gavin on Independence Live.

    19. Glesca Keelie says:

      Aye right Micheal, I think our Government would view ANY Westminster legislation relevant to us with suspicion.

      Rev. Can I add an O/T piece so soon.

      Tomorrow night, Tuesday 09/02/16, PBS freesat ch 160 9.00 PM is putting out a prog. on fracking in America. Being PBS, it should ( hopefully) be even-handed. I don’t do Sky or Virgin.

    20. Sorry I thought it said the former Secretary of State for Scotland, Lord Forsyth of Dreamland.

      So he thinks i6t has just dawned on the Scottish Government that the effect of the changes will be that Scotland has less money to spend.

      I think the Scottish Government has been pointing that out for some time to the people of Scotland, which is why short of independence, it called for FFA.

    21. ClanDonald says:

      Whose fault was it that there hasn’t been an open and public debate? “Vote no for faster, better change,” wasn’t a debate, it was a pack of lies.

      And it’s highly unlikely that this scenario has only just “dawned on” on the Scottish Government, they knew all along we’d be shafted.

      We told anyone that would listen that we we’d end up paying twice for the same services, but we were dismissed as liars.

      The fact is that if an open and honest debate were to be allowed, Scotland would have a substantial majority demanding independence and they know it.

    22. Hugh Barclay says:

      All we hear from Unionists is take the deal, the hatred for the SNP and wanting to fuck them over is blinding them to the fact its Scotland they are fucking over. Unionists really are fucking dim or just incredibly stupid.

      Oh I do hope this is publicised far and wide.

    23. ian says:

      We have more ammunition than you can shake a stick at but the opinion polls still remain in the no camps favour,why?I can hardly believe that 50%plus of our population are that dim.

    24. Bob Mack says:


      Carmichael refused costs.Well done Orkney4

    25. Proud Cybernat says:

      “…the effect of these changes will be that Scotland will have less money and may find itself having to put up taxes in order to stay where it is.”

      And if that situation ever does come about (they’re still fighting about the Fiscal Framework, remember), then it will be because the Yoons voted down every single amendment to the Scotland Bill that would have given our SG the financial levers elsewhere to grow our economy and thus, avoid having (potentially) to raise taxes. That the Yoons voted down these Scotland Bill amendments has placed Scotland in this position, NOT the Scottish Government.

      Will they ever grow a brain or state a truth? Dinnae hold yer breath.

      It should now be abundantly clear to those who voted NO in the hope of ‘The Vow’ that it was only ever going to be a Yoon Con and that the ONLY way Scotland can move forward properly is to have ALL economic and political power transferred back to Scotland.

      If you want something done properly, DO IT YOURSELF.

      SNP x 2 = IndyRef 2

    26. Grouse Beater says:

      OT: Court rules against Carmichael getting any expenses.

    27. Chic McGregor says:

      Contrary to perhaps popular belief, Forsyth has stood up for Scotland’s interests, albeit unheralded, in the past.

      I would give him the benefit of the doubt here.

      What he is saying is actually true after all.

      Scotland will be financially worse off if the Bill is accepted in its current form.

    28. ian says:

      The bitter together lot got their strategy all wrong and now its coming back to bite them.They truely believed when they won the independence vote it would all be back to normal and the SNP would drop down to a handful of seats, therefore giving the unionists the opportunity to pass of a few new pretendy powers.

    29. Ananurhing says:

      I remember Forsyth being interviewed during the indyref campaign where he stated that while he was in cabinet, the accepted wisdom was that all that was required for Scottish indy, was for Scotland to return a majority of SNP MPs.

      Straight from the Trojan horses mouth.

    30. Iona says:

      I wonder why he thinks Scotland returned 56 SNP MPs? “Suddenly dawned”… no we have known all along that WM would screw us.

    31. winifred mccartney says:

      well I trust John Swinney and the wool will not be pulled over his eyes – NO DETRIMENT – and if there is send them home to think again

    32. Rob says:

      O/T Sorry to be linking the Carmichael BBC to you, but, with a small air-punch…

    33. paul gerard mccormack says:

      You know, just occasionally, life affirms itself through whatever rotten system we have devised.
      So, all hail the Orkney 4!
      Best news in a long, long time.
      Just had to say so.

    34. Onwards says:

      I think its clear the Tories have NO intention of delivering a fair deal with the ‘no detriment principle’ intact. They don’t want further tax devolution because they know it would make full independence far more likely in the future.

      The SNP have to calculate should they reject it entirely and go back to square one.

      However, it looks like a future ‘review’ clause will be inserted.
      They could make clear they are accepting a flawed deal on a short term basis only, making VERY clear it is a first step and further improvements and subsequent powers are needed.

      Politically speaking, if a flawed deal is accepted, I think the people of Scotland will take the side of the Scottish Government in any future disputes.

      I think I would prefer an unstable mess with forward pressure, rather than ending up with nothing – in a situation where we give the appearance that we are dependent on a subsidy.

      That doesn’t make the case for independence any easier.
      And that is the ultimate goal.

    35. Dan Huil says:

      Has it suddenly dawned on Carmichael that lying doesn’t pay?

    36. Dan Huil says:

      @ Onwards 12:31pm

      “However, it looks like a future ‘review’ clause will be inserted.”

      See that very very very long grass over there, Onwards?

    37. Chic McGregor says:

      OT @Rob
      Typical BBC, repeating the leaked claims with no mention that they werer false.

    38. Onwards says:

      Chic McGregor says:
      8 February, 2016 at 12:17 pm

      I would give him the benefit of the doubt here.

      What he is saying is actually true after all.

      Scotland will be financially worse off if the Bill is accepted in its current form.

      I think that’s true in the short term.
      I also think it is FAR more likely to lead to independence, as people will understand that far more powers are needed to grow our economy. There will be constant constitutional tension until the bill is improved, or we vote for full self-government to sort it out once and for all.

      One step back for two steps forwards.

    39. DerekM says:

      Ah its the Thatcher prince of darkness the only reason he ever did anything for Scotland was to get that title,he is a despicable little tory Chic.

      But just the man to bring in to put a subtle slant to the story as if the SNP have been slow on the uptake,we know thats not true,more deflection from the fact they have been caught with their grubby thieving hands in the Scottish cookie jar.

      Watch your master plan unravel before your eyes yoons.

      All you twitter folks should get a one of those things going no detriment or no deal if you havnt already.

    40. Chic McGregor says:

      A wee reminder of the gestalt prescience on this issue during indyref1.

      Sorry, its the second of IndyPosterBoy’s posters in the Gif animation’

    41. Famous15 says:

      The court REFUSED to give Carmichael costs.

      For the avoidance of doubt,he may have escaped on technical grounds but he was found to be a lying abuser of the public trust.

      Carmichael should now resign and if he does not the Lib/Dems must withdraw the whip and cast him into the political wilderness where he can learn contrition .

    42. Andrew McLean says:

      How can the Liar Carmichael remain as a MP, hanging over the precipice by his fingertips, the Court of Session has just stamped on them. NOT ONE PENNY!
      Why? Because in Scottish Law damages are given to the winner to compensate his loss, Carmichael had no loss; He was found an unreliable witness. A Liar and as such NOT ONE PENNY!

      The Parliamentary Standards Office state that holders of public office are accountable to the public for their decisions and actions and must submit themselves to the scrutiny necessary to ensure this. Holders of public office should act and take decisions in an open and transparent manner. Information should not be withheld from the public unless there are clear and lawful reasons for so doing.

      But above all holders of public office should be truthful, by order of the court he is not truthful, indeed he is so tarnished that NOT ONE PENNY in damages was given.

      But please stay a MP, stand as an example of a rotten system and take our money! You make an excellent recruiting sergeant for the SNP!

    43. It takes an unelected right wing Tory to tell that other; unelectable, incompetent,Tory Party that they are bams, numpties and airheads.

    44. Dunks says:

      O/T. Re Carmichael.

      Typical how BBC portray this story.

      Liar Carmichael still looking smug yet the Telegraphs “Sturgeon’s Secret Backing for Cameron” headline looms large on the Web page with no reference to the fact the story was in fact a lie. Paranoid? You bet I am. I simply cannot bring myself to believe a word the BBC says anymore. SNP x 2

    45. mike cassidy says:

      Is he regretting the fact that Scotland is being shafted

      or doing a spanner.

    46. wee_monsieur says:

      So, implicit in his statement is that he has known this for some time, but is gleefully pointing out that only now has the Scottish Government caught on…

      So if he has known, why the secrecy up till now? And as a former Secretary of State “for” Scotland, how can he be happy with that?

    47. bjsalba says:

      Suddenly dawned?

      I believe John Swinney has kept records of the negociations and plans to publish them before the May election.

      Does that sound like someone who knew what they were up to, or someone who saw it from before the Smith Commission even started?

      Project Smear is up and running. Too wee, too poor, too stupid.

    48. T.roz says:

      “Just dawned on the nationalists” your arse Forsyth! Full fiscal? Federal state? Home rule? Then we get offered a watery portion of income tax control. On yer bike.

    49. Legerwood says:


      Congratulations to the Orkney 4. The judges said: “” After hearing legal arguments from both sides, Lady Paton said: “In all the circumstances, exercising our discretion, we consider this to be in effect a case with divided success.””

      On topic

      You did not need to be a Nobel Prize winning economist to know right from the beginning that devolving a bit of income tax powers was worth zip. Anyone with a couple of functioning neurones knew that straight from the off.

      Lord Forsyth’s comment about the SG seems designed to feed into some narrative that paints the SG as naive idiots. Unfortunately that is a hard sell particularly when the SG has two Nobel prize winning economists advising it – and a full set of functioning neurones.

    50. louis.b.argyll says:

      Why, is this man, aka Mr B, even still involved in the democratic process.?

      Memories of him apologising for Thatcherisms’ biting realities,..

      .. makes me sick that he still has the cheek to show his face.

      How many people, alive today, actually ever voted for him? Any guesses?

      fmr Tory “lords” should have their democratic remits audited..

      ..Thereby regulating interests and ensuring they don’t always have a ‘right’ to have their ‘opinion’ sought or accepted as wisdom.

      Not saying that Mr Forsyth doesn’t deserve an opinion..but his is no more important than mine.

    51. Golfnut says:

      So Michael Forsyth admits in public, on camera, in front of a commons committee that the Scotland Bill is being used by Westerminster to siphon yet more money from Scotland.

      Thanks Miichael.

    52. Chic McGregor says:

      Don’t get me wrong folks, I don’t think there is the slightest doubt that Forsyth is a Unionist through-and-through and will make whatever anti-indy capital where and when he can.

      But that does not mean he is bound therefore to take an anti-Scottish tack within that context. Some Us seemingly are so minded, but in his case, I think he genuinely wants the best deal for Scotland within the Union.

    53. Onwards says:

      @Dan Huil

      A future review won’t mean many concessions from Westminster – so it will put the Scots in a position where we either vote for independence or accept being at a permanent disadvantage.

      What I know is the Tories WANT the SNP to reject this bill.
      They don’t wan’t any further devolution at all.
      Ask yourself why that is?

      In times of low oil prices, if an effective subsidy or sweetener has to be paid through the Barnett Formula, they are happy to pay it – as a means of retaining control over Scotland, our resources and our sea area, and the prestige of having a larger UK.

      But once things for sure – the Barnett Formula won’t last forever anyway, and it is slowly reduced anyway through the Barnett Squeeze.

      The way I see it, the Tories want to get away with no further devolution at all, and play the long game – hoping that SNP support gradually falls and they no longer have a majority at Holyrood.

    54. faolie says:

      John Swinney didn’t come up the Clyde on a banana boat. And you need to give him his due – he’s trying to make this work. But come the 12th when he reports back to Nicola that we’re going to be shafted, I can’t see how she’ll accept it.

      And then the s**t will hit the fan, with the Scottish press and the Beeb moaning about the “Nationalist’s intransigence” and such like, given they haven’t shown any support yet along the lines of “Don’t let them screw us, John, stand up for Scotland”. Almost as if they want us to lose billions from our budget…

    55. paul gerard mccormack says:

      On topic –

      ‘When you dance with the devil, you don’t get to pick the tune!’

      It’s that simple, surely?

      Can you imagine having made an agreement and opened the MSMs’ and the oppositions’ pandora’s box of lies, filth and puss, what would emanate from them?

      Keep your eyes on the prize! Reject the deal.


    56. Dan Huil says:

      @ Onwards 12:56pm

      “A future review won’t mean many concessions from Westminster – so it will put the Scots in a position where we either vote for independence or accept being at a permanent disadvantage.”

      We’re already in that position, Onwards.

      “The way I see it, the Tories want to get away with no further devolution at all, and play the long game…”

      If we accept this flawed Bill then it will be an extermely long game. I’m confident the majority of people in Scotland will accept the SNP’s reasons for refusal. In the same way they’ll accep the judges ruling today about flawed Carmichael.

      Anyway, good talking with you. Lunch calls.

    57. Brian Powell says:


      A ocean of intention lies between Carmichael and the Orkney 4. Carmichael, liar, piles up the bills with multiple lawyers, demands all costs and punitive damages, Orkney 4, with 10,000 ordinary supporters looks for fairness in politicians, seeks no extra costs, with one lawyer, and vows to give any excess to food banks.

      Forsythe slithers about in the same slime as Carmichael.

    58. derek c says:

      What Chic says at 12 17

    59. Robert Louis says:

      The forthcoming, laughably titled ‘Scotland’ Bill, is a big freaking trap, with the words ‘freaking trap’ emblazoned in large letters on its front cover.

      Inside on page 1, it states,

      1. This bill is a big freaking trap to allow Westminster to consistently cut funding for Scotland, blame the Scottish Government, and force the Scottish Government to increase taxes in Scotland. Haha.

      2. This bill is a big freaking trap, which will ensure the SNP will never again be able to win an election in Scotland.

      3. This bill is a big freaking trap, which will ensure our state propagandist BBC and poodle English owned ‘media’ will for all time coming be able to shout loudly, ‘Scotland is too poor to be independent, and must carry on begging from English taxpayers’.

      4. This trap will work, since no Scot aside from John Swinney can understand the fiscal framework, QED it will be easy to blame the Scots for any cuts in funding.

      5. To help disguise the fact this bill is a big freaking trap, the following pages will document pointless, diddy, pretendy half ‘powers’ which England will graciously bestow upon Scotland. These pretendy ‘powers’ will be presented by our poodle English owned media, our state controlled propagandist BBC, and our red Tory friends in Scotland as ‘the greatest handover of ‘power’ ever, ever, ever’.

      I assume the SNP do realise all this.

      O/T very good news about the self confessed liar Carmichael not being awarded expenses at court. Well done the Orkney four, very well done.

    60. Papadox says:

      Forsyth only “worked” for Scotland once Westminster’s boot was firmly on Scotlands neck and his personal wants were taken care of. He was one of Thatchers fixers!

      Dave and his gang wouldn’t do the dirty on Scotland, they “love us” they’ll go the extra mile to make sure we are shafted once and for all. Never to get ideas above our station ever again!

      Nicola, tell them to stick it, WERE LEAVING, so just divi up the assets and we’ll call it a day.

    61. Onwards says:

      Dan Huil says:
      8 February, 2016 at 1:04 pm
      @ Onwards 12:56pm

      “A future review won’t mean many concessions from Westminster – so it will put the Scots in a position where we either vote for independence or accept being at a permanent disadvantage.”

      We’re already in that position, Onwards.

      We aren’t really.
      We are in a position where we are comfortably accepting Barnett money within the union, to partially compensate in times of low oil prices. If the Scotland Bill is rejected we will be choosing to maintain that position.

      However if we get to a place in a few years where it is clear that a ‘no-detriment’ Scotland Bill framework isn’t working, and we urgently NEED more powers or independence to save our economy, then it brings the situation to a head.

      I am looking at it like a chess game.
      Sometimes you have to make a sacrifice in order to get into a winning position.

    62. Sassenach says:

      Apologies, O/T, but was anything ever heard of the result of Carmichael and the Westminster Parliamentary Standards wifey’s investigation? Or do we have more to look forward to?

    63. James says:

      @Onwards is spot on.
      Scottish Government are backtracking because the agreed no detriment position is not as they wish it to be, as 12 months later they now realise (perhaps due to the Aberdeen crisis) that they can’t grow the Scottish economy at the same rate as rUK. Might be able to in a few years time but the headwinds now are too strong.
      Facts on the ground must have changed their view, as the no detriment ever position now being adopted is basically saying lets continue with the Barnett Formula.
      I don’t think the Tories are that bothered either way as it is now Barnett or Barnett, they will probably give Swinney what he wants as it will just continue to show why the No vote won in 2014.

    64. HandandShrimp says:

      The Scotland Bill is unworkable because of the vindictive tinkering by Fluffy the Muddle and the Treasury. It was their intent to cripple the Scottish Government and thereby with it devolution and the SNP.

      The SNP should not sign until the barbs and traps are removed and someone ceremonially kicks Muddle in the testimonials for wasting everyone’s time. If they are not prepared to do that then the bill should fall and we go to Indyref 2 at our pleasure.

    65. Movy says:

      Very interesting. Clearly Michael Forsyth doesn’t look at the news in his own country or he’d be well aware that WE HAVE KNOWN that it’s a trap for ages. Didn’t Fluffy confirm that earlier? Great about Carmichael by the way.

    66. Anagach says:

      Fiscal Trap anyone…

      … I think all sides have known this was the play with Smith and the Scotland Bill, the advantage or loss they are hoping for is that either higher taxes are applied and blamed upon the SNP or its rejected and the SNP are blamed for no progress.

      I do not know how that will play out, but I suspect a lot of people do realize that the fiscal framework on offer is likely to be a bad deal.

    67. heedtracker says:

      Less money and higher taxation for UKOK Scots, without open and public debate is “regrettable” is it? haha

      From full on UKOK Project Fear 2014, to one of the greatest shystes red and blue toryboy world has ever pulled but can they can get away with it?

      If only they’d laid out the future for Scots in the UKOK, for daring to even think Scotland could run it’s affairs in 2014. Where oh where is red toryboy Crash Gordon to save us.

    68. scotsbob says:

      @Sassenach BBC reporting Carmicahael’s claim for costs has been dismissed

    69. Onwards says:

      They will never be able to grow the Scottish economy faster with limited income tax powers only.

      The bill as it stands is a steaming pile.

      However I do see it as inevitably leading to far more powers or independence – as its inadequacies will soon become clear.

      And I think the Scottish public will take the Scottish Government’s side in future negotiations – as it is funding for our schools and hospitals that is at stake.

    70. One_Scot says:

      If anyone needs any evidence that Scotlands media is totally under the control of the British State, then the fact that you will not see any news regarding Alistair Carmichael having to pay his own legal costs anywhere on BBC Scotland, should be all you need.

    71. Iain says:

      Why don’t we reject this flawed bill and then put a vote to the Scottish Parliament. If the vote is passed, tell England that the union is over, divide up the assets and liabilities. Problem solved, after all the Scottish people are sovereign. It’s time we resumed our place in the world. We do not need to be ruled by another country.

    72. Onwards says:

      Problem with that Iain, is that unfortunately, most Scots voted to be ruled by another country not that long ago.

      Realistically, we will only get independence through a second referendum. And we need to go into another referendum in changed circumstances.

    73. Fireproofjim says:

      Not a single word on Reorting Scotland about Carmichael funding his own costs.
      Even room for a SuperBowl player with a micro-vague connection to Scotland, but nothing about the conclusion of the biggest political scandal for years.
      Ponsonby was right. Never trust the BBC.

    74. TD says:

      Forsyth illustrates quite nicely why the Smith Commission recommendations and all forms of devolution will eventually unravel. This is just the latest manifestation of the underlying issue – namely that a large centralised state “devolving” power to a part of that state in an unbalanced inequitable manner will not and cannot work. It is a recipe for chaos. It creates tensions of the sort we have been seeing ever since the Act of Union with its limited recognition of Scotland being “different”. These tensions have only increased since the Scottish parliament was reconvened. Budgetary disputes, EVEL, disputes over national anthems, fear that England will impose its will on Scotland, fear that Scotland will impose its will on England and what Alex Salmond once described as the “surly lodger” phenomenon all result from the completely illogical “state” that is the United Kingdom.

      There are only two ways to go. The first is to actually enact what Mundell claimed happened at the time of the Act of Union – i.e. to dissolve Scotland as an entity and create a true single state with England (it would probably also need to include Wales and Northern Ireland). In this scenario Scots law would be abolished, the parliament would be scrapped and in all respects Scotland would become nothing more than a geographic area or region of greater England. I would be horrified if we were to take this approach, but it would have the merit of creating a logical state and the source of most of the tensions would be removed.

      The second way to solve the problem is independence for Scotland. This also would remove the source of the tensions – i.e. the Act of Union. We would not need to negotiate our budget with England. We would not have the fear of England deciding our fate. England would be rid of their “surly lodger”. EVEL would be irrelevant. I believe, based on the evidence, that in Scotland we would be more prosperous, but for me that is not the main driver. We would enjoy the same status as most people on this planet – we would be in charge of our own national destiny.

      Devolution in the context of the UK is an abomination. It implies superiority of the central power and subsidiarity of the entity to which power is dissolved. I refuse to be subservient to another country. When devolution is lop-sided as it is in the UK, then resentment is inevitable.

      The current argument over the financial settlement for Scotland (even that phrase gets my hackles rising – why should Scotland’s money be “settled”? Does England get a settlement?) is inevitable. Agreement may or may not be reached, and life will go on. But the more the UK tries to tinker with devolution as a solution to the fundamental problems underpinning the very existence of the UK, the more the tensions will increase. I think that Forsyth was one of those who said that devolution would be the thin end of a wedge leading to independence eventually. He was right.

      It’s all good and going our way.

    75. Audrey Macmillan says:

      This is all SNP nonsense designed to hide the true facts of the voting system from ordinary people.

      FACT: the more votes the SNP get the more their votes will be rendered useless. If they get 100% of the vote then their vote will be divided down by 100% to zero in the list vote – SO THEY CAN’T GET seats on the list.

      FACT: The system was designed to give smaller parties a chance and not the big parties.

      FACT: An SNP vote is simply a vote for unionism.

      FACT: Greens and RISE have been working away at the grass roots for independence far longer than the SNP.

    76. bugsbunny says:

      Who in their right mind, apart from the suicidal, would sup from a poisoned chalice? Tell Mundell, Cameron et al, to sup from it themselves. We want a draught of Freedoms Ale. We wont suffer your fools delusion a minute longer.

      A quote from the bible covers this…John 8:44: “You belong to your Father the Devil, and you want to carry out your Father’s desires”. “He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.” “When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar, and the Father of Lies”. Sums them all up perfectly.


    77. johnj says:

      The SG knew the proposals were unworkable all along, which is why they pretended to go along with the charade until the time is right to pull the plug, which is now.
      Nicola et al are setting the agenda and the timing of future conflicts, Forsyth is just too stupid to know that.

    78. marydoll says:

      Now slimy Forsyth has reared his ugly head! We should not accept the Scotland bill not even with the supposed review in it as that will disappear in Westminster. Read the Jim C
      Cuthbert article and think again!

      Anybody feel sorry for Liarmichael?

    79. r baxter says:

      I smell another vow (scam) coming on. as an uneducated old git, I can smell shite a long way off. the wife and my three girls will vouch for that. (bless them)

    80. Skip_NC says:

      O/T, a factual report from STV on the Carmichael case:

      The last two paragraphs are pure gold.

    81. HandandShrimp says:

      Delighted for the Orkney 4. I thought Carmichael was ill advised to go after them after the ruling said he had lied but on technical point of the legislation he did have to stand down. He didn’t win and he didn’t leave the court with his reputation intact.

    82. Andrew McLean says:

      Duncan Hothersall on twitter !Literally every single currently sitting SNP MP – and both the suspended ones – lied during the election about Labour voting for £30bn cuts.

      Really LABOUR MP Diane Abbott accused her party’s leaders doing working people a “great disservice” by backing Tory plans for permanent austerity.

      The London mayoral hopeful was among five Labour MPs who defied their whips to vote against the Con-Dems’ budget responsibility charter.

      Katy Clark, Dennis Skinner, Austin Mitchell and Roger Godsiff also opposed the charter alongside 13 MPs from other parties.

      But support from shadow chancellor Ed Balls saw the charter, which includes plans to slash public spending by a further £30 billion, passed by a whopping 515 votes to 18.
      Duncan you FOOL!

    83. Valerie says:

      Naw, creepy Thatcher boot boy. What is ‘dawning’ is that Swinney can run rings around the Brit Nat number crunchers, and will not sell out.

      The only question in my mind is when and how the SG will organise to fire the shit back down to London, for max pain.

      Please give them both barrels, SNP!

    84. Molly says:

      Now Fireproofjim – why should the BBC care about Carmichael – it was only about democracy, your representatives integrity and honesty .

      The BBC lives by its own rules and in turn we live by their interpretation . Just ask the junior Docs who weren’t demonstrating last week end.

    85. Craig Murray says:

      The ruling against Carmichael is simply being used by the BBC to repeat the original slur against Sturgeon.

      But I am horrified that Alistair was prepared to try financially to ruin his constituents, after the court had ruled the entire basis of the problem was his own deliberate lie.

    86. Donald says:

      Have you seen the front of the Daily Record with the SNP logo, branding us racists? Has no unionist ever made a racist remark? Is their party Labour Party logo emblazoned with the racist slur? I can’t stand that newspaper. I will never buy it again, ever.

    87. HandandShrimp says:

      That should have said “did not have to stand down”

      wishful thinking on my part I fear 🙂

    88. Auld Rock says:

      Shetland Gas, total switched on and not one whiff of this gas coming to Shetland where we don’t have a piped gas supply only the highest fuel prices in Europe – Aye Better Tgether, my arse.

      Anyone notice how the Unionist Broadcasting Corpn valiantly tried to bury Carmichael news with minimum mention – if it had been the other way round it would have taken-up the whole News.

      Auld Rock

    89. Petra says:

      Michael Forsyth says ”My own view is that it’s suddenly dawned on the Scottish Government that the effect of these changes will be that Scotland will have less money and may find that it has to put up taxes to stay where it is.”

      I don’t think that it’s suddenly dawned on anyone Mr Forsyth. John Swinney has no doubt always been aware of this although SLab and Kezia Dugdale may still be floundering around in the dark. That is the SLab promoting Better Together Party.

      This is one wee Scotman who knows only TOO well what’s been / is going on, how much Scotland is worth and how it’s been robbed blind. Another snake in the grass.

      And will we find that with every austerity cut forced on us by him and his Tory Party cronies that taxes will have to be raised again and again to keep Scotland ‘STAYING WHERE IT IS’? So many enemies to deal with. Scottish Independence can’t come soon enough. Roll on the day.

      ‘Independence in Scotland: Forsyth campaigned against the Scottish Parliament having the power to vary the basic rate of income tax by up to three pence in the pound, which he dubbed the “Tartan Tax”.

      Forsyth’s persistence was widely credited with prompting the Labour Party’s unexpected decision – bitterly criticised by the Liberal Democrats and the Scottish National Party – to separate out the tax-varying issue in a two-question referendum on devolution …….

      ‘House of Lords: Forsyth was nominated to the Privy Council in 1995, was knighted in 1997 and entered the House of Lords as Baron Forsyth of Drumlean, of Drumlean (Drumlean is a small area near Aberfoyle in Stirlingshire.) on 14 July 1999.

      Following his elevation to the Lords, he has held a number of positions. He was a member of the Commission on Strengthening Parliament (1999–2000), the Select Committee on the Monetary Policy Committee of the Bank of England, the Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament on Reform of the House of Lords, and the Select Committee on the Barnett Formula.

      From October 2005 to October 2006, he was Chairman of the Conservative Party’s Tax Reform Commission, established by then Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer, George Osborne MP. He served as a member of the House of Lords select committee on Economic Affairs from 2007–2011. He has also been a member of the joint committee on National Security Strategy and a member of the special select committee on soft power. He was appointed for a second term to the House of Lords’ Economic Affairs Committee in 2015.’,_Baron_Forsyth_of_Drumlean

    90. Camz says:

      Many ‘No’ voters believe the ‘Yes’ voters are made up of unemployed, students, and other ‘economically inactive’ types.

      If true, a tax rise will hit ‘No’ voters more than Yes voters. Calling it the ‘Better Together Tax’ is actually quite appropriate and I’m sure that ‘No’ voters will blame the SNP / referendum, rather than Westminster (again).

    91. msean says:

      But,but what about quicker and better change,no detriment clauses,bettertogether pensions,broad shoulders home rule as near to federalism,guarantees about…

      Never trust a tory or those who worked with them against you.

    92. call me dave says:

      Michael Bruce Forsyth is not daft he’s a tory politician enough said!

      Swinney and the SG have seen the writing on the wall since the start of the myth commission and the ‘No detriment’ part must be upheld. Even a slight weakening like a agreeing to a review of it’s implementation after 4 or 5 years is a very risky strategy IMO.

      Best talk it out and have the Scottish cereal bowl filled against our will and then see what folk think of the cold porridge, same outcome in the long run I believe.

      Well done the Orkney 4. It must be a comfort not to have to pick up the liars costs.

      It also suddenly dawned on me, while I was out earning a crust there, that this new huge gas field has still left me too poor, too wee and too stupid. Thanks to the car radio, Douglas Fraser and the BBC I’m moving along as there is nothing to see here, good old auntie! 🙂

    93. Robert Louis says:

      From the link above by Nana regarding Carmichael,

      “But Jonathan Mitchell QC (pictured right), for the petitioners, pointed to the fact the petitioners had successfully argued a number of points and that the case was in the public interest…He noted the court had described Mr Carmichael’s behaviour as “shocking, outrageous, dishonest, lacking in candour and unimpressive”.”

      My bolding.


    94. dakk says:

      Fireproofjim says:
      8 February, 2016 at 1:47 pm
      ‘Not a single word on Reorting Scotland about Carmichael funding his own costs.’

      Our political/media smooth operators will give us our daily feed of what cud they want us to chew over.

      Not the telling exposure of a liar at the heart of the unionist governance of Scotland …we should fret over Kim Jong – un.

      He’ll have all Brits wearing jack boots and speaking North Korean in no time(good luck wi’ that),if we don’t spend 167 billion on a new Trident.

    95. Capella says:

      OT – more Union dividends.
      Radio 5 Live has a feature on an American designer who created a map of the UK showing where all the favourite TV shows were made. The BBC map is too small to read. But if you go to his site you can see “Outlander” as one of the very few shows filmed in Scotland! Sadly it’s not a TV show in the UK.

    96. Dr Jim says:

      It’s good the UK is extracting Gas from British waters surrounding the UKs Atlantic British seas and powering two million British homes in the UK and even beyond Britain which is in the UK and a subsidiary of Great England which is Britain

      Deep Joy

    97. Martin says:

      I’m with you, Bobjack. There’s a reason Labour are the party suffering here. The Tories are quite candid about their plans and don’t deny they want the poor to suffer and die so that the “wealth creators” can eff us all over. Labour have a brass neck though and use sleekit lies without any regret.

      The Lib Dems aren’t worth talking about

    98. Nana says:

      @Robert Louis

      and from the Shetland times…

      The unionists will no doubt pile in to comment with more lies, it’s what they do.

    99. Fireproofjim says:

      Extremely well done the Orkney 4.
      I am sure that the crowd fund will stretch to a celebratory dinner. You deserve that and more for the stress and anxiety you have withstood over the last year.
      It shows how much we can overcome if we stick together. Thanks to my fellow wingers who supported them.

    100. TJenny says:

      So delighted for the Orkney4 against Liar Carmichael – and hopefully a wee windfall for Scottish foodbanks into the bargain. But why is he pleading poverty when he’s not only been vastly overpaid for years from the public purse, i.e. us, as both MP and Cab Min, but is also a farmer. (Freudianly, just mistyped framer there.) Surely his farm makes a profit esp considering EU supps etc.

    101. Ken MacColl says:

      The Beeb on Radio Scotland are presently featuring a trailer for a remarkably unfunny satirical show with the tag line, ” It’s not news unless we tell you it is!”

      I am fairly sure that the irony is way over their heads.

    102. Sassenach says:

      @scotsbob at 1.46pm

      I know about the ‘fees’, what I was asking about was whether his being reported to the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner, at the end of last year, had ever had any further movement?

    103. call me dave says:

      Torrance earlier 🙁 and now Cochrane in the Telegraph 🙁
      Me? I’m not surprised that that’s what the polls claim – giving that the Scottish public have been fed a perpetual diet of moans and groans from the Nats about the BBC for decades now. It’s bound to have had an effect.

      But the crunch question is: do Scots viewers want programming that’s totally different from their neighbours in other parts of the UK? I doubt it but I fear that’s what might be on the way.

    104. Robert Louis says:

      Let’s never forget in any of this, that Carmichael was not just an MP, he was a member of the cabinet in the UK Government, as Scottish secretary.

      I can only assume fluffy Mundell will be sighing in relief now the case is over, given he worked in the English consulate in Edinburgh (The ‘Scottish’ office) at the time this all happened.

      I guess in 30 years time, we’ll find out just who in the UK cabinet knew all about this.

    105. Thrawn says:

      And why might Scotland be getting less money under the proposed new fiscal arrangements…nobody bothered to try and find out? Just happy to retreat to reflexive Brit-bashing I guess…

      Well its because instead the Barnett formula which was basically a nice big subsidy for Scotland they are looking at implementing a system that takes into account the actual Scottish income tax revenues which surprise-surprise are less than the block grant because we are not a very populous country and we don’t earn as much as our English (well more precisely London and SE) neighbors. Now you can whinge about that and blame the policies of Westminster in the past for creating that situation (yawn) but it doesnt change the present reality and it certainly doesn’t change the fact that the situation would be exactly the same (and probably worse – high earners are alot more mobile) if we were independent.

      So in other words complaining about the negotiated fiscal settlement is a clear admission that an independent Scotland would have severe difficulties in financing itself…good to see we agree though

    106. Proud Cybernat says:

      “A crowdfunding site set up by a friend of Mr Carmichael to raise money for his legal funds, expected to be at least £80,000, has so far raised £14,000.”

      “Help me, Rhona!”

    107. orri says:

      I think people may be making the mistake in assuming that what is being rejected is the findings of the Smith Commission rather than the mangled remnants that the government will attempt to foist on us.
      Given the SNP negotiation team have the inside track on this I hope the majority of those in Scotland will trust them rather than take the words of the unionist parties.
      I can well believe that rather than a workable set of powers which if they worked to increase revenue generated in Scotland might increase the amount the UK rakes of they’re more than capable of cutting their nose of to spite their face just so the SNP don’t gain in popularity.

    108. McDuff says:

      Dr Jim
      Spot on. I watched the BBC lunch time news ( I`m going to give myself 100 lines for that) covering the gas coming online by Total to the Shetland Isles and Scotland was never mentioned, it was Nr Britain every time.

    109. mumsyhugs says:

      Carmichael? Karma!!! 🙂

    110. Luigi says:

      Inverclyder says:

      8 February, 2016 at 3:02 pm

      Carmichael to pay £150,000 in legal fees.

      Oh how we laughed!

      It’s just all so sad – all that cash could have gone to a food bank. And then there’s the million quid bill us taxpayers have to stump up for the official WM enquiry, which could have been avoided had he come clean before the election. He seems to be a rather selfish, vindictive man, who will trash anything and anybody in order to protect himself. It didn’t quite work out though – too bad. My heart bleeds. 🙂

    111. Iain says:

      For nearly all my life the policy of the snp was when we have a majority of Scottish members of parliament, we would declare ourselves independent. What has changed? Scotland is ready for change, people who worked all their lives paying their taxes are being stripped of their benefits. Being dependent on a food bank is not a good, or dignified way to live. We have people reduced to beggars in our country. Scotland is a rich country, in that the country can feed itself, it is blessed with plentiful energy resources and has a well educated resourceful population. It is time to say yes to freedom, and throw of the shackles of the union.

    112. Dan Huil says:

      I’mm sure all of Carmichael’s britnat chums will come to his financial rescue. The libdems will be able to give him some money as soon as they pay the money they owe the Scottish Police service.

    113. Angusman says:

      All “No” voters will now feel they made the right decision, surely.

    114. Fred says:

      The Northern Isles view of Carmichael’s come-uppance will be interesting, I believe his support was stronger in Orkney than in Shetland, could be some material here for the next Inspector Perez’s “Shetland” series. 🙂

      Is Forsyth’s intervention an attempt at kindling a fire under Mundell’s arse?

    115. Dan Huil says:

      Whenever Fluffy waddles into a TV studio to tell us how wonderful the Scotland Bill is, all we have to do is show Forsyth’s “moment of truth”. Hypocritical britnats are toast.

    116. AFewHomeTruths says:

      Forsyth’s comments are not aimed at a Scottish audience except accidental witnesses. It like the Sturgeon is Thatcher jibe, like Corbyn’s conference speech claim that we privatised Scot Rail, and the endless Dugdale drivel about failing services and one party dictatorships etc is a narrative for England.

      There was an article in a Tory rag many months ago saying we had a year to sort out failing services or it would be taken out of our hands.

      Today on Twitter there is a poll run by a Guernsey based company on who would be trusted to sort out the UK if there was a coup or it became too dysfunctional to operate. Options include Britain’s top general & parliament. They do not mean OURS. The SNP was to be blown away by the media storm since last May and be either out of office or so under siege that the Bill would pass.

      Since we aren’t about to cave in and the polls still back the SNP the grass may turn out to be very short.

      If the SNP reject this and win the election, and UK votes for Brexit and we don’t, the UK government may try to abolish our Parliament or insist it can’t convene till order has been restored by Brigadier General Sir Raving Loony.

      It already has the department called the UK Government for Scotland to take over with more Advisers and PR staff than you could shake a stick at. There would be no shortage of UKIP types cheering dawn sarf and no second thought from the yoons here. They don’t care how they get what they want so long as they get it.

      Of course the UK and EU are big supporters of Human Rights and none of this could possibly happen. Right ?

      Of course they could just fix the election… If you know anyone who can ensure there are large exit polls now would be a good time to make sure they are on the case. The phoney war may be almost over, who knows what lies ahead.

      I hope Wings has a plan B if it is taken down or blocked for us. I wish someone in the new media had made a phone app video news service. I can only see it getting worse before it gets better.

      On the other hand since we are dealing with people of honour and the highest ethical standards of decency, morality and philanthropy, they may just say goodbye, good luck and thanks for all the fish (& oil).

    117. Brian says:

      He’s saying that the WM establishment knew this all along.

    118. Luigi says:

      Tavish Scott and Liam McArthur (and all the other LibDem MSP candidates) must now answer a simple question:

      Do you agree that Mr Carmichael should not be granted expenses for the Frenchgate trial?

      No waffle now please, no manufactured pity for your pal. Just answer the question clearly: A simple YES or NO would suffice. The people or Orkney and Shetland deserve to know.

    119. Scott says:

      A £10million project to improve a notorious bottleneck on one of the north-east’s busiest roads is on track to be complete by spring.

      The Inveramsay Bridge, near Pitcaple, has been the source of endless suffering for commuters north of Inverurie travelling along the A96 Aberdeen to Inverness road for years.
      Full story in P&J which is a surprise

      This has been a pain in the a*** on this road for many years Tory/LabLibs did nothing the same applies to the Fochabers by pass this along with the dualing of the A9 and A96 good on you SNP.
      Glad to see that liar Carmicke will be out of pocket I wonder if you will see him busking on the streets of Kirkwall

    120. woosie says:

      So Forsyth is wheeled out of the glove puppet cabinet ( HOL ) to break it to us stupid nats that we’ve been conned. Well, we haven’t! The vow was vague empty promises, the Myth Commission watered that down, and the proposals on offer are beneath contempt. But I’m certain few who read Wings were kidded, and neither was John Swinney.

      I’ve had an eye on Swinney’s interviews on politics and news shows, valiantly resisting the urge to say ” stick it up yer arse! ” Scotgov have gone about this in the proper manner, not dismissing the new “powers” out of hand, until they had written confirmation of the joke presented to “uk” citizens.

      My view is that a few powers are useless anyway; if we were somehow able to improve the lot of our people from the scraps they throw, they’ll simply shout “detriment” and reduce our rations.

      Such a shame that a proud nation like ours is being shafted from within by Itsaliar Carmichael, Fluffy Dumbell and Ian Change-the-subject Murray.


    121. Ananurhing says:

      Carmicheal lied to us and his constituents, and then takes punitive action against them for telling the truth.

      Mundell tells us we’ll just have to take our chances regarding a no detriment issue. (Tax credits)

      Forsyth sold us a big lump of fakey stone.

      What is the Scottish Secretary of State for again?
      I thought his charge was to represent our interests in cabinet.

    122. Jim says:

      Help me Rhona! hahahahaha

    123. Les Wilson says:

      Well great news for the Orkney 4, soo happy for them, they can breath fresh air now, and foodbanks will benefit.
      However, we can be proud also, every last one of us who backed their just cause.

      But what now Carmichael may come out with a book on the subject, maybe then we would find out who was really behind the scenes, go Alister you know it makes sense, money for you and more satisfaction for us!

      On Forsyth, he is an odious wee man and is certainly up to something, beware a trap. Never, ever, ever believe a Westmister Crony like him. We need to suss what he is up to ( aka the Westminster cabal ).
      It needs deep anyalsis before we take his/ their word for anything at all, and even then…..

    124. I Clark says:

      Thrawn at 2.54 p.m.

      ‘So in other words complaining about the negotiated fiscal settlement is a clear admission that an independent Scotland would have severe difficulties in financing itself …’

      Complaining about the fiscal settlement implies no such thing. The most obvious conclusion to draw – if you had bothered reading comments on sites like this over the last few months – is that we are complaining that Westminster looks like it will fail to deliver that which it promised.

      There is an argument to be made that an independent Scotland might struggle – like many other countries – and have to make difficult choices regarding taxation, spending and borrowing. And that the SNP are reluctant to bring these realities to the electorate’s attention.

      However conflating two different arguments and producing an obvious non sequitur supports neither argument.

      I assume though that the main purpose of your post was really about venting a little Unionist frustration that the Independence movement and SNP have not shrivelled up and died. As they say “You won. Get over it.”

    125. Macart says:

      @ Ananurhing

      ‘We ensure the smooth working of the devolution settlement in Scotland. We represent Scottish interests within the UK Government and we represent the UK Government in Scotland.

      Pretty much straight from the horse’s wossiname.

    126. orri says:

      Of course there’s always the incredibly slim chance that this is actually a bluff by Forsyth to nudge the SNP into rejecting the Scotland Bill.

    127. GusI says:


      Do you know what the “actual Scottish income tax revenues” are?

    128. Ananurhing says:


      Err…. C. (Do I win A prize?)

    129. Sinky says:

      Not surprised that BBC 24 hour (national) news runs story on Shetland’s Gas pipeline but no mention of Shetland’s MP expenses bill despite him being a cabinet minister at the time of the offence.

    130. Inverclyder says:

      Luigi @3:18pm

      Sadly you’re correct however there may be some good news as Carmichael is now forever tarnished goods and will never be looked upon favourably by the electorate ever again.

      His chickens are coming home to roost. Don’t be surprised if he steps down at the next GE or is promoted to the House of Dead Stoat Fur for his services.

    131. heedtracker says:

      That Lord of the Trough is a good example of unelected malice dripping yoonery but

      BBC vote SLab Scotland says

      “Judges ruled in December it had not been proven beyond reasonable doubt he had committed an “illegal practice”.
      Mr Carmichael has now lost a claim that his legal expenses should be paid.
      His expenses have been estimated at between £50,000 and £80,000.”

      Oooyah! UKOK Libdem MP and solicitor guilty of Illegal Practices and it’s all being buried by UKOK meeja creep show as per. But what a great day for democracy, Scottish democracy and it only cost me a cool twenty quid:D

    132. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “FACT: the more votes the SNP get the more their votes will be rendered useless. If they get 100% of the vote then their vote will be divided down by 100% to zero in the list vote – SO THEY CAN’T GET seats on the list.”

      Er, no. That might be the most stupendously wrong thing anyone’s ever written about the Holyrood electoral system, which is no small feat. If you’re being satirical, kudos. Maximum subtlety.

    133. heedtracker says:

      Alistair Carmichael, the former Scotland secretary, is facing a legal bill of about £150,000 after narrowly surviving a bid to have him ousted as MP for Orkney and Shetland.”

      Rancid the Graun’s Hammer of the Scots Rupert Carrell says Fozzie owes twice the amount BBC says. What’s a hundred grand between yoons anyway. His fund raisers hit £14k says Rupert, maybe trying to get LibDem’s to dip into their deep pockets. They really should considering how they’re so keen on tax hikes in Scotland to pay for UKOK austerity.

    134. Macart says:

      @ Ananurhing


      That wee addition on the last line only appeared relatively recently. I reckon they’re leaving no one in any doubt that for Scotland Office, see under future embassy in Scotland and for SoSfS, see under viceroy/ambassador/gov. gen./gopher etc.

    135. gerry parker says:

      If the alleged remarks were made why weren’t they reported to the police rather than being leaked to newspapers?
      More behind this than meets the eye.

    136. One_Scot says:

      That fact that this has-been, that never was, uses the phrase, ‘has suddenly dawned on’, makes me think he’s probably not allowed into the ‘Big Boy meetings’.

    137. Merkin Scot says:

      “….gas coming online by Total to the Shetland Isles and Scotland was never mentioned, it was Nr Britain every time.”
      It was also interesting to hear the Beeb Rad 4 constantly refer to Lerwick as ‘the capital of Shetland’.
      Is another new front being opened?

    138. HandandShrimp says:

      The 45 happily crowd funded the Orkney 4.

      Let the 55 crowd fund Carmichael…Alistair might find the unionists amongst them are fair weather friends though and a fair few of the 55 voted No reluctantly and grudgingly and have no desire to provide succour.

    139. yesindyref2 says:

      Well, the less the Scottish Government says, the more others say to try to discredit it, the SNP and Swinney. Inevitably they’ll all contradict each other, and themselves.

      The Tactics of Panic, as Gordon R. Dickson might have called it.

      No point in waging war on an “enemy”, if you can stand back and watch them destroy each other, and themselves.

      More tea vicar?

    140. Robert Kerr says:

      Oh it’s tea now! Not popcorn.

    141. Weegiepolitik says:

      Rage doesnt even begin to describe how i feel about the latest antics from that shower of barstools down south.

      The question i always return to – and often used to try and wake up many a blinkered yoon during the indy ref campaign – is if we are a nation of leeches why do they want to hang onto us so dearly?

      Post ref this can also be framed around FFA.why not allow us to control our own finances,whilst retaining the geographical area and population of the uk and in turn residual empire status?

      Neither answer is for the betterment or welfare of Scotland and her people.only for subjugation and exploitation.

      How long before we head down the route of early 20th century Ireland!

    142. AFewHomeTruths says:

      If we haven’t yet started proceedings at Court of Human Rights I would hope a case is ready to be put. This unfolding fiasco is surely the last leg of pursuing all possible remedies within the member state. There is clearly no redress available to us from the UK’s own statements of intent and actions.

    143. Alastair says:

      Sass enact.
      The Commissioners’ enquiry was reported as being started 02 June 2015.
      That’s 8 months too investigate and take evidence from people who are readily available to the commissioner.
      But, Carmicheal having admitted under oath that he admitted misleading to the Cabinet Office enquires into the leaked memo, can his evidence be believed.
      The commissioner has Lady Paton’s determination available docmenting him as an unreliable witness.

    144. Jimbo says:

      But, but – Surely Forsyth must be wrong?

      What about Gordon Brown’s guarantees?

      What about the Vow?

      They wouldn’t have lied to us, would they?

    145. Mark Fletcher says:

      Though Carmichael did not lose his seat, I consider that we have had, in some respects, a satisfactory outcome. He has piled ignominy upon himself in lying, attempting to corruptly sway the opinions of the electorate, being evasive in court and then seeking punitive damages. How shameless, how brazen, how immoral was that!

      Those in his own party and others who spoke up for him are also tarnished. It would be nice to think that Liberal support in Orkney and Shetland is as fatally holed below the waterline as it seems to be in the rest of Scotland.

      The Greeks used to say that learning comes through suffering. Perhaps Carmichael will benefit somehow from reputational damage and financial loss.

      I think it magnificent that a great many fellow Scots have shown through unstinting encouragement and support for the Orkney Four that we will not tolerate this sort of behaviour in our elected officials. It fills me with optimism.

    146. Robert Louis says:

      Iain at 320pm,

      You are correct. Indeed even Thatcher said so, that if the majority of MP’s elected from Scotland were pro indy, then so it will be. I too recall that being an established fact all of my life.

      The difficulty I see is that to an extent, the SNP appear to be afraid to wield the authority they actually have. Even regarding Smith, it has always been abundantly clear it would be nonsense, and so it now is. The SNP should be demanding things, rather than being nice and playing by London’s rules. In my opinion, John Swinney is wasting his time negotiating with Westminster, as they are proven liars who will do anything to hold on to their Scottish colony.

      As regards independence, the real difficulty is that in the run up to the general election, it was the SNP and nobody else, who openly declared that a majority of SNP MP’s would not mean independence. I must confess I do think there was no need to have done that, and in many ways it is yet another example of the SNP placing barriers of their own making in the way of independence.

      I find it all as frustrating as you. I sometimes wish they would fully appreciate the genuine democratic mandate they have in both the Scottish and English parliaments. To me, is sometimes feels there is a lack of courage, and too much tacet acceptance of the unionist point of view. Playing by London’s rules.

      The treaty of union, between England and Scotland, is just a treaty like any other – either party can decide it no longer suits them. History is littered with similar examples. At the very least the SNP should by now be demanding it be re-written in truly equitable terms for Scotland, or else they tear it up. They may not have a mandate for independence, but they most certainly have a mandate for that. Many in the SNP seem to have forgotten that a treaty is just an agreement, and they are broken by Governments and other bodies all the time, including by Westminster.

      Westminster only ever changes policy when threatened. They only did Smith due to the threat of independence, yet as soon as the threat was lifted, they effectively tore it up. History shows, that reasonable debate in the HoC and jolly nice teatime chats just don’t work with Westminster.

    147. Paula Rose says:

      @Iain and Robert Louis – there is just the little matter that barely 50% of the electorate voted SNP.

    148. Capella says:

      YouGov poll says UK has the most right wing press in Europe.
      No mention in the right wing press!

    149. Robert Kerr says:

      Yes Paula Rose.

      That’s why I have maintained that votes for SNP on the list are not wasted.

      The more votes in both constituency and list the more legitimate the SNP are seen to be..

      SNP SNP You know you want to.

    150. woosie says:

      handandshrimp, 4.32;

      Maybe the 55% DID give as much, per head, to Itsaliar as the 45% gave to the 4.

      Maybe 55% wasn’t an accurate assessment?

    151. Macart says:

      Just to be clear, the no detriment clause wasn’t a serving suggestion or a flight of fancy, it was mutually agreed. We’re talking about Westminster delivering on the outcome of the referendum at this point and it doesn’t get much more serious in terms of consequences.

      It is for Westminster to deliver on the pledges they made to the Scottish electorate. It is for Westminster to deliver a fair and AGREED upon settlement which brings no fiscal detriment to either party. It is for the Scottish Government to ensure that there is a measure of scrutiny applied to this delivery and inform the Scottish electorate of developments as necessary- end of.

      So far that whole delivering on pledges and promises thing isn’t looking too good. Broad shoulders looking more than sloped at this point and by Mr Forsyth’s own admission, apparently the settlement as it stands appears to be more than merely flawed. It certainly bears no resemblance to home rule or near federalism. The Scotland Bill debates saw the FFA amendment thrown into the bin out of hand by the establishment party benches (who knew?) and indeed the other what? Twenty amendments proposed by the SNP. Mind you that would kick that whole ‘nothing off the table’ promise of Mr Cameron’s into touch as well.

      Tick tock Mr Cameron I’d say.

    152. Brian says:

      Sassenach : I enquired via my MP last week. The reply his Parl Secretary got was: “I am sorry but the Commissioner does not give updates while an inquiry is in progress nor does she give estimates for when she might complete her work.

      If the constituent wishes to be alerted when the status of the Commissioner’s inquiry changes, s/he may sign up for an alert to a change in the list of the Commissioner’s Current Inquiries on this page of the Parliament website: .”

    153. frogesque says:


      If I were owed any money from Carmichael I would want paid PDQ. Hopefully he will go bankrupt with all that entails including his nice little earner from London HQ and loosing his License to Practice. Maybe he’ll have to use a food bank, and that would be justice

      To the brave Orkney 4: Result! You stood firm and we watched your backs. Sleep well tonight.

    154. There is no way the Scotland bill can work, Westminster will never allow the Scottish Government to improve the Scottish Economy or provide better services than are being provided in England.

      You only have to look at the current attacks on the Scottish Government for providing free higher education, free prescriptions etc.

      Just think of what the reaction from the people in England
      would be if they saw our public services in Scotland improving while theirs were continuing to be cut and privatised.
      Devolution was always a unionist sham.

      Meanwhile its been reported that Leven could be dealt a devastating jobs blow after fears were raised about the future of its Pfaudler Balfour factory.

      The GMB trade union said 100 Fife jobs could be lost if the company decides to consolidate its operations in Germany.

      All those jobs that were safe only by voting no and remaing part of the UK.!

    155. yesindyref2 says:

      I personally can’t go with that. There’s a difference between Carmichael the politician, and Carmichael the human being and family man.

    156. ian says:

      I’m surprised there is anything left to discuss re the Smith proposals as any meaningful amendments were clearly binned.

    157. Sassenach says:

      @Brian at 5.34pm

      Thanks for that, matters do grind slowly at Westminster!! But we do have possibly more to look forward to, then (as does Carbuncle, I’m sure!).

      Hope he’s sleeping well……

    158. Robert Louis says:

      Paul Rose at 526pm

      As you should know, Westminster majorities are decided not by percentage share, but by number of seats. At present, 94.7 % (54 out of 57) of Scottish constituencies elected a pro independence MP. That is, only three constituencies in Scotland elected an MP opposed to independence.

      We either agree the rules or we don’t. Cutting it both ways (no. of seats AND %), is what unionists like to do.

    159. Neil Cook says:

      Off topic but which numpty gave Beeb Scotland Channel of the year? The test card is more informative!

      Great news about Carmichael

      Laggan Tormore would fund 91% of Scottish homes for 20 years if we used the Barnett formula?

      Can John drop that into the negotiations with the Treasury.

    160. Bill Hume says:


      yesindyref2 says:
      8 February, 2016 at 5:40 pm

      I personally can’t go with that. There’s a difference between Carmichael the politician, and Carmichael the human being and family man.

      True, but this human being and family man was quite prepared to bankrupt the Orkney Four…..all human beings and (I think) family people.

      What goes around, comes around.

    161. Gary45% says:

      So the constant carping on about the fall in oil revenues from the Yoonies, should disappear regarding the gas fields west of Shetland opening up, (I have my doubts.)
      Very surprised the pipe line didn’t go all the way to Londerland.
      Watch the yoonies giving big love to the Shetlanders and
      the Burds face should be a riot tonight on Reporting Shortbread.
      Stuff the rest, they had their chance, and blew it.

    162. I can only reiterate my tweet of last week:

      Dear London Tory Bastards,

      ‘No Detriment’

    163. Capella says:

      Oh dear. More criticism of our media. This time over their trashing of the UN Working Group on Arbitrary Detention finding on Assange.
      “3 false claims MSM is making about the Assange case”

      Why is everyone picking on them?

    164. Nana says:


      Being lectured on poverty by a tory is truly an farcical event. For anyone who wants to watch this it seems you must sign in so they can get your data and probably sell it on at some date in the future.

      Now eat your cereal.

      I personally would not bother, I might choke on her hypocrisy.

    165. paul gerard mccormack says:

      O/T and apologies.

      Interesting to note that the oracle and exemplar of all journalism (The Guardian) has quite literally buried the Carmichael outcome of today under the section called Parties and then you have to click on liberal democrats (and who on earth would go there?) to read the story.

      Clearly an editorial decision. After all, that’s what they get paid the big bucks for.

    166. Sandy says:

      Carmichael, the LIAR, stung. Has to pay his own costs. So there is justice sometimes.

    167. Gullane No 4 says:

      I cannot see folk queuing up to retain Carmichael as a lawyer in a couple of years time.
      Silly Boy got caught up in the ‘London ways’.

    168. Jim says:

      From the BBC:

      “In the ruling, Lady Paton said Mr Carmichael had told a “blatant lie” in the Channel 4 interview – but that section 106 of the Representation of the People Act did not apply to lies in general.”
      Absolutely no mention that the memo was a lie just that him saying he didn’t know about it was a lie?

      Bunch of arseholes.

      P.S, No offense was meant to arseholes.

    169. call me dave says:

      Hello! They can’t make the Scottish Cup draw and there’s only one game being pulled out. A ball malfunction.

      Dundee utd V Celtic…sory folks the teams are going back in the hat! FGS!

      Shurley Schome Mishtake… how embarrassing! SNP bad?

    170. handclapping says:

      yesindyref2 : 8 February, 2016 at 5:40 pm

      I personally can’t go with that. There’s a difference between Carmichael the politician, and Carmichael the human being and family man.

      Indeed there is; it was Carmichael the lying politician who won in Court so the judges had no sympathy with his QC’s pleas on behalf of Carmichael the family man when it came to expenses! Hoist with his own petard could be a justified cliche in this case. (Pun considered and allowed to stand)

    171. Petra says:


      Well done to the Orkney4 (plus pals) for being so decent, brave and making history in the process. You’ll sleep easy tonight.

      STV news reporting on this half decent for a change. That is Carmichael was shown up for the despicable, lying creep that he is.


      @ Thrawn says at 2:54 pm ”And why might Scotland be getting less money under the proposed new fiscal arrangements…nobody bothered to try and find out? Just happy to retreat to reflexive Brit-bashing I guess… Well its because instead the Barnett formula which was basically a nice big subsidy for Scotland they are looking at implementing a system that takes into account the actual Scottish income tax revenues which surprise-surprise are less than the block grant because we are not a very populous country and we don’t earn as much as our English (well more precisely London and SE) neighbors.

      Now you can whinge about that and blame the policies of Westminster in the past for creating that situation (yawn) but it doesnt change the present reality and it certainly doesn’t change the fact that the situation would be exactly the same (and probably worse – high earners are alot more mobile) if we were independent. So in other words complaining about the negotiated fiscal settlement is a clear admission that an independent Scotland would have severe difficulties in financing itself…good to see we agree though.”

      FGS mister where have you been? This isn’t just about income tax. What about our other (many) resources? Who’s benefitting from that? The Scots? The present reality is that Scotland’s exporting more than it imports and vice versa for rUK hence them having to borrow / 1.6 trillion debt. I’m not even going to waste my time on here trying to educate you (yawn). Go do your homework.


      I see that the Daily Record has another SNP Baad story on the front page today.

      ‘Get the Pakis out of the party’: SNP councillor Julie McAnulty at the centre of second race row.’

      Seemingly an SNP activist (SNP member for 40 years) reported her.

      If true, and it seems that it is, she should be booted out of the party / her job ASAP. Hard to believe that so many people from Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon, John Swinney and people like you and I are working our butts off to get our Independence and someone like her can lose us votes overnight.


      Shetland … UK gas? Isn’t it Scotlands gas as it’s in Scottish waters? Maybe someone could put me right on this.


      STV news mention the delay re. Scotland Bill. Kezia Dugdale gets her bit in about lack of transparency but goes on to say that the SG shouldn’t sign up to anything that’s not in the best interest of Scotland. The Party that wanted nought devolved at all. You couldn’t make it up.

      STV also basically affording the Greens a Party Political Broadcast tonight. Doing everything in their power to undermine SNP chances in May.

    172. Clootie says:

      ….I wonder where they got the idea?

    173. heedtracker says:

      Fozzie should be struck off. How and to who do I make a formal complaint concerning the “illegal practice” of my solicitor in Scotland?

      google says

      Step 2

      If the problem is not resolved with the client relations manager, you may submit a formal complaint to the Scottish Legal Complaints Commission (SLCC), which is the gateway for all complaints against solicitors in Scotland. The Society cannot receive complaints directly. This applies irrespective of whether the solicitor was acting for you and the type of work being undertaken. It applies to solicitors who may be acting as insolvency practitioners.

      The SLCC decides if a complaint relates to the service provided or the conduct of a solicitor and whether the SLCC or the Society or both should investigate the matter.

      Fozzie, your early retirement awaits.

      Lawyers retire at 58 anyway. Its the weight of that lolly that ways them down, bringing on all kinds of wealth issues, that require a decade extra at the golf club:D

      If he’s not struck off for this UKOK shyste alone, the SLCC needs investigating too.

    174. Sandy says:

      LIAR Carmichael.
      30 seconds on EBC Scotland news.

    175. yesindyref2 says:

      @Bill Hume
      Can’t disagree with that Bill, though it could be said that he knew their costs would be crowd-funded, so it’s just us he’s bankrupting!

      Mmmmm. Bastit.

    176. BJ says:

      yesindyref2 @5:40

      The Orkney4 are not politicians trying to shaft human beings and they too have families. Carmichael would have probably taken all they had if he got the chance.

      Good result

    177. Craig Travers says:

      Only a 50 second segment on Reporting Scotland about Carmichael and not only that, they persist in the lie that Carbunkle “was cleared”.

    178. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Robert Louis.

      I, personally, believe that the 50% figure is, psychologically, and practically, worth thinking about.

      If the SNP come out of the May election with most of the constituency seats AND 50+% of the constituency vote, along with 50+% of the regional vote (no matter how many regional seats they win), resulting in an over all majority, then it’s a triple whammy, as they say.

      It puts the only party capable of delivering independence in a pretty strong position, being able to show that the MAJORITY of voters support their aims. And don’t forget – if you vote for the SNP, you are voting for a party that states this at the start of its constitution:-

      “Name 1. The Party shall be named the Scottish National Party.

      Aims 2. The aims of the Party shall be:

      (a) Independence for Scotland; that is the restoration of Scottish national sovereignty by restoration of full powers to the Scottish Parliament, so that its authority is limited only by the sovereign power of the Scottish People to bind it with a written constitution and by such agreements as it may freely enter into with other nations or states or international organisations for the purpose of furthering international cooperation, world peace and the protection of the environment.

      (b) the furtherance of all Scottish interests.”

      Now, we know that Labour (Scotlandshire Branch) have given up on 2(b) but, strangely enough, I couldn’t find a link to their constitution on the Scottish Greens’ web site.

      Seems we have to just believe that they’re pro-indy, with no constitution to refer to.

      HUH? A lot of NO voters BELIEVED the hype that a NO vote would mean that we’re ‘better together’. That’s not working out too well…

    179. Orri says:

      Charmichael could always resign on grounds of ill health to raise a bit of cash.

      Think part of the missreporting is reporters not getting their heads round the idea that neither party has been awarded costs.

      Perhaps tactically refering to what he was seeking as punitative was seen as an arrogant blunder on his part. Certainly reading the original finding there was an element of fuck of ya wank aimed at him.

    180. BJ says:

      Ex MP Alan Reid is hoping to get on the list. He voted to renewTrident, abstained on the austerity vote and to my knowledge he has never condemned his party colleague A Carmichael.

      How dare he ask for my vote.

      SNP/SNP always

    181. heedtracker says:

      Toryboy electoral spending cheating on C4 news right the now. Toryboy’s like Forsyth wont be troubled bt UKOK media. Whatever happened to the 57 grand BetterTogether dosh that disappeared UKOK style?

    182. yesindyref2 says:

      I think you’re right, he basically tried to tell the court what they should find, and they didn’t like that either. From start to finish he conducted himself in completely the wrong way to try to win his case.

      I gave an incredibly small amount to the crowdfunder and this being a very poor time of year, would still have given the same incredibly small amount at the end of this week if they’d lost, before spending on food!

      Justice should be available to everyone, regardless of money. I don’t like money bullies. Crowdfunding is the People against wealth.

    183. Ananurhing says:

      So Carbuncle admits lying to the press, and lying to the Cabinet Office. By extension he has lied to his constituents, and the people of Scotland.

      According to Jackie Burd, the Orkney 4 accused him of lying, BUT HE WAS CLEARED.

      FFS. How low can BBC Scotland go? Slack jawed journalism? Or more blatant lying?

      It has to be one or the other. There is no middle ground between the two.

    184. Fireproofjim says:

      Inderef2 @7.06
      “Crowd funding is the people against wealth” How right you are.
      I don’t think we have yet realised fully what we have achieved and this will go down in legal history.
      I am not by any means a Marxist, but could not help thinking of their credo – “Ye are many, they are few”
      A great victory for morality and an example which will make the privileged think twice about trying to cheat the people.

    185. Petra says:

      Great post, as per ususal, from George Kerevan in The National …. ‘England’s monopoly at the Bank has to end’.

      ……… ”Carney is a moderniser. He has restructured the internal operations of the Bank, promoting women and streamlining fusty internal ways of doing things. A new Bill is going through Parliament this month to give legal force to some of these changes. The SNP will be proposing a few more.

      For starters it is now time to rename the Bank of England and give it a title that signals to the rest of the World that the modern devolved UK represents four vibrant and distinct nations. Several suggestions have been put forward including the obvious (but boring) Bank of the United Kingdom. Another possibility is the sterling Central Bank, which might be useful if an Independent Scotland were again to seek a common currency with England. However my proposal is to tweak the name to become the Bank of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Gordon Brown suggests a variation of this idea in his autobiography. He puts Wales before Scotland, whilst I list in order of population size. This new name may look unwieldy and inelegant. But it keeps the historical association with the old name while explicitly recognising the other nations of the UK. I suspect Bank of England would continue in usage as shorthand, but a point would have been made……

      The SNP will be putting down amendments to affect the composition of the controlling board, known as the Court. We want to place a legal obligation on the Chancellor of the Exchequer (who does the appointing) to ensure the membership of Court reflects all the Nations and regions of the UK …… to ensure at long last that vital manufacturing regions are given a direct say in monetary policy-making ……..

      And another: ‘Drive to scrap rigs will sound ‘death knell’ for North Sea oil industry, say academics.’

      Is THIS what Osborne et al are up to? Turning their back on the oil industry to line their own pockets?

      ….. ‘Two oil experts, Alex Russell and Peter Strachan, Professors at Aberdeens Robert Gordon University stated that …..” Decommissioning …… This would effectively sound the death knell for the North Sea oil industry. There would be no way back.”….

      ….. The Chancellor’s reckless decision to have UK taxpayers pay half of the £50bn estimated cost of future decommisioning expenditure. Perhaps there is logic behind oil companies grabbing the generous offer from the Chancellor before everyone has second thoughts on the matter of giving away public money to wealthy companies.”

      I’m posting excerpts of the articles on here but you’d need to sign up to read the full article, that is if you don’t already buy the newspaper.

    186. galamcennalath says:

      Listened to Radio North UK on the way home tonight.

      “Shetland … gas … UK …. oil … west of Shetland … UK … huge project .. UKOK … £3b cost … UK … loads of gas … Two million home … UK … Shetland”

      Absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Scotland. Never mentioned.

    187. gus1940 says:

      Nobody will be surprised at the coverage or lack thereof of the Carmichael Expenses story on tonight’s Reporting BBCSNPbad.

      It was 9 minutes in before the story was mentioned and if you blinked you would have missed the report – it can’t have lasted as long as a minute.

      The report was so short that I was expecting a full report later in the bulletin – but no there wasn’t – just the usual fitba and other rubbish.

    188. Petra says:


      It’s becoming clearer now why Osborne’s not doing one whit to help the oil industry. Planning to make big bucks for himself and his friends through decommissioning and in the process trying to scupper Scotland, in totality, before it becomes Independent ….. because he KNOWS it’s coming.

      When will the Labour Party in Scotland stand shoulder to shoulder with the SNP to protect Scotland …. our oil industry? When?

      They owe it to us between Wilson hiding McCrones’s report and Blair / Brown using OUR oil revenue to prop up the London Casino and pay for their illegal Wars.

      Time for half decent Labour politicians such as Rowley, Findlay and Boyack to take the lead. Better still jump ship and join US.

    189. HandandShrimp says:

      Caught the headlines briefly on the radio

      Orkney 4 do not have to pay St Alistair’s legal fees – bastairts that they are. This despite St Alistair being totally vindicated and innocent. Bastarts!

      or at least that appeared to be the gist of it.

      Think the BBC were not keen on the judgement.

    190. Orri says:

      Carmichael was tried under electoral law with a narrow remit. Reading the verdict he escaped by the skin of his teeth. That’d be the verdict that officially branded him a liar. For him to escape on a technicality is fine by me as I would rather the law dealt fairly with everyone rather than be used to victimise those I didn’t like. Karma is a well renowned bitch.

      For him to then go beyond asking simply for costs, incured for the most part by his own choices and attempt to punish those who had a legitimate right to question the probity of his election was pushing his luck to its limits.

    191. gerry parker says:

      Petra at 6:39

      Re the DR article.

      I said earlier that there was more to this than meets the eye and I’ll repeat that.

      – and I can assure you that Julie worked her butt off during the independence campaign and the GE campaign too, I know because I worked alongside her in both.

      You’ve got to wonder why the SNP member of 40 years went to the DR. I should have thought it would be entirely an SNP matter.

    192. heedtracker says:

      Think the BBC were not keen on the judgement.

      That load of red and blue tory shysters also have four UKOK years left in power.

    193. arthur thomson says:

      Forsyth’s statement seems designed to be insulting and sneering towards the SNP – nothing new in that, it is what unionists do.

      The SNP had no choice but to adopt a diplomatic response to Smith and the goings on since then. The point appears to be coming soon when they will have to be equally diplomatic in rejecting the proposed Bill. Of course the unionists, through their press will present this in a way that seeks to put the SNP in a bad light.

      We all have to accept that, ultimately, it is down to the Scottish people to decide whether they are willing to accept this. If a majority are then all the SNP can do is engage in damage limitation by aborting the process. If they are not then the SNP can represent the views of a committed electorate with increasing forcefulness.

      There is no quick fix. We cannot proceed to independence except at the wish of a substantial majority of the electorate and that is what we must work towards with infinite patience. Only the unionists would welcome and benefit from a debacle. Scotland doesn’t matter to them.

    194. Polscot says:

      Further to the media reports on the new gas terminal in Shetland, on the R4 Today programme this morning the correspondent who ventured north of Watford to do an on-site report, Simon Jack, stated that the weather was “surprising mild because we are closer to Norway than we are to Scotland”. I guess geography wasn’t taught at his public school?

      At least he was put straight on some of his other false statements by the terminal manager, Dave Wink, emphasising the skills base in the Aberdeen area and also about the nature of the challenges they overcame when constructing the terminal and the challenges in processing the raw materials to extract the gas.

    195. thomaspotter2014 says:

      Fuck Carmichael-dodgy lying bastard.

      He got his promise that he would be let off whatever happened from deep state Establishment.

      Cue the smarmy’I’m getting off whatever happens’face at the court.

    196. Nana says:

      Joanna Cherry recommends this explanation of the fiscal framework from Kirsty Blackman mp

    197. Phronesis says:

      SG does not support institutionalised austerity and the inevitability of inequality of access to services nor does it support tax resistance amongst the well-to do who do not support the state services that the 99% require for their well-being because the 1% can buy their own.

      It is the poor and the squeezed middle in Scotland who will suffer if the perniciously anaemic Scotland Bill is accepted. Lord Forsyth does not speak for Scotland he speaks for a very small minority who are least affected by anything WM in its malevolent benevolence bestows on Scotland.

      Interesting that he should mention an open and public debate.That would be welcome regarding a number of issues current and historical that typify why this asymmetric union isn’t fit for any democratic purpose where Scotland’s autonomy should be respected.

      Or we can keep voting for our party of independence and save time on a lot of pointless discussion.

    198. X_Sticks says:

      From The Orkney Vole

      “Not even one penny to Alistair Carmichael.”

    199. jdman says:

      “Shetland … UK gas? Isn’t it Scotlands gas as it’s in Scottish waters? Maybe someone could put me right on this.”

      It would be interesting to find out of the “Ex Regio” gas will be charged a higher tariff to put it into the grid as do Scottish power producers or will IT be exempt?

    200. heedtracker says:

      Carmicheal gets another 4 years at the trough, BBC Scotland fury at stuff like Scottish people not doing as they’re told by BBC Scotland.

      Emma Thompson’s husband just explained on C4 how easy it is to dodge UKOK tax and the HMRC wont do anything at all. Even NO commenting HMRC fiddle their conviction rate books. Almost noone is ever investigated, let alone taken to court. Buy a trust in Belize, sent it your money, send the money back to the UK to your limited company and that’s UKOK that. NO tax.

      What looks like massive tory part electoral funding cheating for last year’s UKOK GE is also not illegal as its all come out now and so its gone past the law’s statute 1 year of limitations. Again, NO commenting tory party are let off Scot free. No mention made of the who and why BBC’s Gavin Estler had whole days of BBC tv and radio to boost a City millionaire’s vote NO borders campaign in Scotland’s referendum run up for example. Its all very jovial, how frightfully British but the EU is watching closely etc

      Just another day in the UKOK world of toryboys.

    201. John says:

      Just reject it John , send it back to the drawing board , the next generations will not thank the SNP for being the government that sold Scotland down the river .

    202. Robert Louis says:

      Perhaps somebody might like to check, but did reporting Scotland tonight have a very long piece about the new Scottish gas field, without once using the word ‘Scotland’. There was plenty of UK, Britain, mainland, Aberdeen and Shetland, but I’m pretty sure they managed it without once using the name of the country in which they (and the oil field) are based.

      New BBC motto, ‘Ssssh! don’t mention the ‘s’ word’.

    203. Bob Mack says:

      There may well be a major confrontation on the way between Westminster and the Scottish government. If you had seen the papers this morning you would have noticed that they are attacking the BMA,as being militant.

      Jeremy Hunt made it very clear that he is going to take the BMA on via legislation to Union laws to make it illegal for junior Doctors to strike,and will force them to accept his contract changes.

      This legislation covers every Junior Doctor in the UK whether Health is devolved or not ,and the legislation does not devolve Trade Union law.

      Will the SNP accept this? Personally I hope not ,as I can envisage mass resignations from medical staff if they are forced down this route, as happened in Australia some years ago.

      Our Doctors are too precious a resource to lose through intransigence and political ideology surely?

    204. Col says:

      Sorry but is BBC Scotland not supposed to report news from a Scottish perspective? But then it was good news so can’t be can’t be Scottish. We know their agenda after all. just need to keep calling them out on it.

    205. Alastair says:

      Carmicheal has received a massive £50 to his crowd founder today.

    206. Inverclyder says:

      X_Sticks @ 8:39pm

      Liking the new name from the Orkney Vole.

      “Alistair Carmichael, the disgraced MP for Orkney and Shetland”.

    207. ArtyHetty says:

      Re: Petra@7.47pm

      I have a book called, ‘Black and Green Gold, Aberdeen’s continuing role in the Energy Revolution’, published 2010, by the Balmoral Group. Written by those closely involved in the industry, it was clear that the UKOK government had started to dismantle the oil industry and that it was stepped up a pace in the run up to the tories taking power in 2010.

      Also it is pointed out that to decomission some important oil fields, was pure folly as that could not likely be reversed and that they were not all spent. The book indicates that there was plenty of scope to invest and expand the industry, but that it was being knocked back with high taxation and lack of investment, by westminster.

      It is a deliberate and orchestrated plan to finish off the industry in Scotland’s waters. Now we have news of success re gas in Shetland, which must be north, north britain, because it sure as hell ain’t got any connection to Scotland as far as the daily propaganda is concerned.

      I suppose UKOK would love it if Scotland would just go away so they could move Shetland south, we are becoming an inconvenience, and annoyance. It must be very regrettable that Scotland refuses to go back in her box. ‘Regrettable’, the word of a bully who is standing over their victim who hasn’t quite done what they were told, and it might just be time to teach em a lesson.

      What next I wonder.

    208. Capella says:

      Was there not a fatwa against using the word S______d issued last year? It’s OK to mention city names (Aberdeen, Lerwick etc) and island names (Shetland -there’s even a crime drama called “Shetland”).
      But don’t mention S______d.

    209. TD says:

      Orri at 8:04 pm

      I agree with your sentiments entirely. Just because Carmichael got off does not mean that the judges were biased or that they were wrong in their judgement. Their job is to interpret the law as parliament wrote it. It can be argued that the law is inadequate and that we the people were let down by it. If that is so, it is parliament we should blame – not the judges or the judicial system. It would be wholly wrong if a judge tried to convict someone like Carmichael because he/she disagreed with Carmichael politically or just did not like him.

      As for the so-called “punitive damages”, I think I am right in saying that it was Carmichael who first referred to “punitive damages” in this case. Let’s be clear – there never was any possibility of punitive damages being awarded because Scottish Courts do not award them. All that was at stake in the hearing today was costs. Carmichael is a lawyer and knew that full well. It is further proof of his arrogance that he sought to position his claim for costs as “punitive”. Who the hell is he to punish the people who challenged his lying?

      The court might well have awarded costs to Carmichael – it is normal for the winner to get costs. The fact that the court did not award him costs demonstrates that the court had the measure of him.

    210. dunx says:

      @ fireproof Jim 7.29

      To give credit where it is due…

      Ye are many – they are few.

      Comes from Shelley’s ‘Masque of Anarchy’, written in 1819 following the Peterloo massacre in Manchester.

      “…Rise like lions after slumber
      in unvanquished number!
      shake your chains to earth like dew
      which in sleep had fallen on you
      Ye are many – they are few”

      An inspiration to many, not just Marxists but also notably to Gandhi and even the Scottish Radicals of 1820.

      Ah’ll get mi anorak……

    211. Legerwood says:

      Interesting piece on CH4 news tonight about the Tories and electoral overspending but no mention of Carmichael. However, there was a very interesting interview with a QC, Craig Millar if I have remembered his name correctly.

      He had some very pointed comments about how outdated our electoral laws and procedures are and how open to fraud. He also mentioned that the EU and the Council of Europe are taking an active interest in these issues.

      Worth watching just for the interview alone.

      Noticed the main BBC news at six reported on the Carmichael case but don’t know if Reporting Scotland did. If not it would not be the first time there was a divergence between the two bulletins on Scottish matters that tend not to reflect well on RS.

    212. yesindyref2 says:

      You’re getting confused, that was the Scottish Labour Party that issued the instruction to not use the S******* word, NOT the BBC.


    213. Alan Gerrish says:

      Robert Louis at 5:20 pm

      The treaty of union, between England and Scotland, is just a treaty like any other – either party can decide it no longer suits them. History is littered with similar examples. At the very least the SNP should by now be demanding it be re-written in truly equitable terms for Scotland, or else they tear it up. They may not have a mandate for independence, but they most certainly have a mandate for that.

      That’s a brilliant observation on so many levels,Robert. First of all it introduces the historical reality of why Scotland is a country equal to England within this “united” Kingdom to so many people in Scotland (I regret to say)and to most of the people in England. It does this “boring constitutional stuff”, not from a position of perceived grudge or grievance on the part of a region of “Britain” but as an equal partner who is taking the initiative for sound business reasons flowing from the broken contract of Union which exists today and which is resulting in growing detriment to the sovereign people of Scotland.

      I really believe the SNP should now go for renegotiation of the terms of Union or walk away from it as a prime manifesto issue. I’m so fed up with being on the back foot regarding eg whether we need to “ask” the pig fornicator if we can have another referendum please, or have to justify to anyone other than ourselves why we need to run our own affairs; anything less suggests we are indeed too feart to lead from the front.

    214. peter says:

      Ah “Lord Forsyth of Drumlean”only one of a long line of amphibians who have occupied the Position of “Scottish secretary” Im sure the person specification must include odious wanker!

    215. Rock says:

      Craig Murray,

      “But I am horrified that Alistair was prepared to try financially to ruin his constituents, after the court had ruled the entire basis of the problem was his own deliberate lie.”

      Is that the same Alistair who has been a close personal friend of yours for a long time?

      Who was a close personal friend of yours during the independence campaign?

    216. Fred says:

      Mebbes Jakey could help a fellow unionist out?

    217. Rock says:

      Carmichael retained his 60,000 salary and has rich and powerful friends in the establishment.

      The disgraceful liar has no reputation to worry about.

      The Orkney 4 lost because in practice, the ‘plebs’ of Scotland are far from “sovereign”.

      And because the Scottish justice system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.

    218. JLT says:

      Well …that is one hell of an admission. It now comes down to how the SNP analyse this admission along with the facts, and somehow …somehow …get this into the public sphere.

      As some comments above have said, then surely, there must be a good number of ‘No’ voters slowly sitting up at this point with alarm bells going off in their head. Forget the usual deluded BritNats who only see ‘The Queen, The Queen, The Queen’. Their heads are so wrapped up in the colours of the Union Jack that even if Cameron and Co raised taxation on their wages to 75%, this lot would still be standing up proud and in the defence of their ‘Union’.

      But that’s not all ‘No’ voters. There are many out there who are aware, and who at the time, decided to give the British State one last chance to level the playing field. That has not happened. If anything, London has decided to punish Scotland severely by getting ready to inflict further cuts to the Scottish budget while waiting in glee for the SNP to be forced into raising taxes on their own people. And when that happens, not only is Scotland caught, but the people will be so distraught, that they won’t have a clue as to which way to jump politically in trying to save themselves. The media would have a field day in destroying the image of the SNP, and thus remove the last refuge for Scots who look to a party that could save them.

      Make no bones about it; the concept and ideals of the Union are now unravelling rather quickly. Westminster and Holyrood are locked in stalemate over the Scotland Bill and the Block Grant; the EU agreement that Cameron obtained is openly condemned by his own Party; England moves ever further to an exit; Scotland moves ever closer to the EU; the oil industry in Scotland has been hammered through the low oil price and therefore makes a mockery of the ‘broad shoulders of the UK’ statement; Syria is a mess; mass immigration from Syria seems to be unsolvable; and we continue to bomb it without really knowing who the true enemy is. It’s simply a f****** mess …and all of it originated in someway from that golden gothic palace that sits on the Thames.

      I think it’s safe to say that many ‘No’ voters are watching these events with great unease. Many will surely have regretted in voting ‘No’. They won’t openly admit it, and I wouldn’t point a finger. Instead …I await for them to finally sit quietly with a ‘Yes’ voter and ask ‘…what do you make of all this, mate?’

      That should be our moment to confirm to them what it is that they are thinking without rubbing it in. Don’t discuss the Referendum. Just tell them that there maybe another way, and independence finally might have to be Scotland’s choice. They may not agree openly …but quietly …they just may consider it the next time round.

    219. Rock says:


      “Carmichael, the LIAR, stung. Has to pay his own costs. So there is justice sometimes.”

      The ‘justice’ is only to save the faces of the judges, the lowest of the low, who failed to find Carmichael guilty in the first place.

      That is how British establishment ‘fair play’ works.

      It will be a great relief for the Orkney 4, for which I am glad.

      But don’t for one moment think that there is ‘justice’ for the ‘plebs’ in this country.

    220. Famous15 says:

      1. BBC are now repeating Scotland and Scottish Energy industry so often someone must have mentioned that at 6.30 pm RS they omitted that location!

      2.The disgraced Libdem MP Alastair Carmichael was not rewarded by the court for causing millions of public money to be wasted on enquiries into his lies and duplicity.

      3. NO DETRIMENT means just that. No traps no detriment.Scotland deserves better than repeated milking by the kleptocracy that is the UK Government.

      4. Cameron is insulting our intelligence as is his whole cabinet. Scotland deserves better!

    221. Rock says:


      “Forget the usual deluded BritNats who only see ‘The Queen, The Queen, The Queen’.”

      The purring queen has her 90th birthday coming up and the BritNats are preparing to bombard us with British Nationalism.

      Any independence supporters who have not yet stopped paying the Pravda GB tax should do so now.

    222. The Rough Bounds. says:

      We watched the BBC lunchtime news report to see what Jackie ra Burd was going to say about Carmichael having to pay his own expenses.

      All we heard was a brief introduction to the matter and the words ”…cleared last year of…”

      None of us heard any more because we all shouted out something like ”No he ##### wasn’t”.

      BBC Scotland. It’s like watching a septic scab leaking.

    223. ben madigan says:

      very well done to the orkney 4 and to their lawyers. I was so delighted to hear the news today!

      – Rounds of applause to all the people who stood behind them, offering what little or lot they could to offset costs – and promising even more if today’s judgement had gone against the 4.

      With the extra going towards alleviating hunger and poverty!

      Each and everybody that contributed should be very proud of what has been achieved in the courts and in society.

      Stand tall, Scots and supporters

      Onwards to winning the next challenge!

    224. Cadogan Enright says:

      Enjoying the Tory boy OUTs accusing the Tory Boy INs of ‘project fear’ and vice versa

      Media not explaining where the phrase came from

      Surprise suprise

    225. Famous15 says:

      I was deceived by the trailer. Scotland again airbrushed! It must be really difficult to write a report without mentioning the name of the country.

    226. call me dave says:

      Prospects for fiscal framework deal ‘gloomy’ as deadlock continues

      PS:The liar.
      But Jonathan Mitchell QC, for the petitioners, told the court there had been a public interest in bringing the case and pointed out they had successfully argued several points.

      “This is not a petition brought frivolously or vexatiously, and indeed Mr Dunlop has not suggested that it was,” he argued.

      “It would simply not be just if the petitioners, having brought this case, having got the public to support them, as to a limited extent the respondent has, should then be told that they have to pay the expenses of his uncandid defence.”

    227. yesindyref2 says:

      We shouldn’t forget that Smith was appointed by Cameron, and the very first meeting of the Smith Commission on 22nd October 2014 produced this, agreed by all 10 representatives, 2 each from the 5 parties having MSPs in Holyrood. As per the Commission media report:

      “Principles underpinning cross-party talks”

      5. Not cause detriment to the UK as a whole nor to any of its constituent parts.
      6. Cause neither the UK Government nor the Scottish Government to gain or lose financially simply as a consequence of devolving a specific power.

      There’s actually no time limit on that, nor does it specify “at point of transfer”, nor is that even implied. It’s a bald statement of intent, and completely governs everything in the rest of the final report.

      I think having secured that, the SNP didn’t have to worry any more.

    228. Liz g says:

      Robert Louis @ 5.20
      Alan Gerrish @ 9.29
      While I understand you’re arguments, the Idea of a New Treaty horrifies me.
      Mainly for two reasons,
      Firstly…what does Scotland need one for?
      Secondly…look how much time ,toil and treasure it has taken to get out of this one,and we are not even all the way there yet.
      As far as I can tell Westminster can’t even produce an even handed deal over there own Vow.

    229. Petra says:

      @ gerry parker says at 8:10 pm …. Petra …. Re the DR article. ”I said earlier that there was more to this than meets the eye and I’ll repeat that. – and I can assure you that Julie worked her butt off during the independence campaign and the GE campaign too, I know because I worked alongside her in both. You’ve got to wonder why the SNP member of 40 years went to the DR. I should have thought it would be entirely an SNP matter.”

      Gerry the Daily Record states that they obtained a copy of the official complaint against Julie which is lodged with the SNP’s compliance officer Ian McCann.

      They then contacted Sheena McCulloch (yesterday?) who verified the details of the complaint but could say no more due to the ongoing investigation.

      What did she actually say to the DR when she ‘verified’? A simple ”yes I’ve made a complaint” or did she elaborate? Did she tip the DR off or was it someone else? I don’t know.

      Has Sheena McCulloch been a member of the SNP for forty years? I don’t know that either.

      One persons word against the others but if S McC has been a member for 40 years (and reputable) it’s not looking good for Julie especially as there seems to have been ongoing issues (common knowledge) between her and Dr Majid.

      Is Sheena McCulloch a special friend of Dr Majid?

      I’m sure the Party leadership will get to the bottom of it all.

    230. Paula Rose says:

      Can I just make the point that there is no purist way to independence – it is open to all.

    231. Chic McGregor says:

      Re the Carmichael case expenses ruling. It all seems too redolent of the situation regarding the students who stole the Stone of Destiny.

      The judiciary (i.e. really the BritNat apparatchiks) decided that a jail sentence for them would render them martyrs.

      See Diomhair

    232. Alan Mackintosh says:

      TD, re Carmichael trying to get punitive damages. This was not a Scottish court sitting in Scots law. It was 2 scottish judges sitting in a Westminster Court in Scotland, trying a case in the RoPAct. Therefore perhaps Punitive damages could have been applicable, rather than costs. Its a moot point however, although I did muse to myself that as the petitioners did win 3 out of 4 points, perhaps Carmicaael might end up having to pay some of their costs. Alas that did not come to pass

    233. Almannysbunnet says:

      How’s this for a bit of wishful thinking from BBC Scotland editor Sarah Smith,

      The fiscal framework matters because it will determine how much money Scotland receives from Westminster for decades to come.

      Not if I can help it.
      SNP 1-2

    234. liz g says:

      Petra @ 11.14
      Gerry Parker is correct Petra.
      There is very definetly more to this than meets the eye.
      Members of that particular branch are within my social circle and have for sometime been discussing the issues in my hearing.
      As far as I can work out the problem is not racism but mysogeny.
      It seems to me the race card is played when ever its made clear that mysogeny won’t be tolerated.
      While I have formed these opinions only from the outside I can and do assure you that the people I am referring to whom I have known also for 40 years are not racist, and that they in turn assured me that neither is the young woman.
      Can I also point out this lady’s track record in standing up against corruption could have something to do with the Record making stuff up about her,(not that it has ever needed an excuse)

    235. Still Positive. says:

      Almannysbunnet @ 11.56

      Not if 1,617,989 voters have anything to do with it – you and me included!

    236. carjamtic says:

      Is the moon in the seventh house ?, Jupiter aligned with Mars ?….condescending pirck

      Been without internet for a week,seems same old….

      Liars still lying
      Oil still Oily
      Spanners still adjusting

      Seers still seeing 😉

      Tick Tock

    237. Sandy says:

      Two points to clear up- anybody.

      1) Can a bankrupt be a member of the WE parliament?

      2) Can a proven public liar, big time, be addressed as “honourable” in same parliament?

    238. Molly says:

      And in another of you could not make it up, that woman on Twitter who rewrites history is the first signature on a petition

      Please don’t resign Alistair – you only made one mistake .

      She’s kind of missed the point . He could have resigned having admitted he lied but he didn’t .

      He could have resigned and stood again , letting the voters decide but he didn’t

      So looks like he’s not going to resign so why have a petition ?

      Goodness they say history is written by the victors , kind of skewed victory and history , if your own cheerleaders miss the point

    239. Robert Peffers says:

      @muttley79 says: 8 February, 2016 at 12:02 pm

      “I disagree with Michael Forsyth. I think the SG have known for a considerable time that the Smith Commission agreement was unworkable.”

      I was rather busy today and so never had a chance to read Wings. I just read the Rev Stu’s article and your comment, Muttley, was the first one to be exactly what I thought.

      In point of fact I would say most Wingers knew, even before any details were drawn up, that they were going to be unworkable.

      What Forsyth is wibbling on about is just the usual crap from Unionists who, I’m sure never had any intention of proposing something that would work.

      Since 1 May 1707 they never have as yet. Why would anyone think they would start now?

    240. Craig Murray says:

      Rock at 9.49

      Yes Alistair was a personal friend of mine for a long time. I am very sorry to say that his activities of late are something I really cannot condone. I have had no contact with him since some time before the referendum.

      I genuinely don’t know what you are attempting to imply by your question about who I was in contact with during the campaign. I dedicated six months of my life full time to the campaign and a lot of my cash. You can find traces of it all over the internet. If you are in any way questioning my allegiance or commitment to the cause of independence I should view that as a mortal insult. It means the world to me.

    241. Macart says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Pretty much Robert. 🙂

      I don’t think there’s anyone in the independence movement who believed for an instant that HMG would deliver a workable, significant settlement.

      Not in the nature of the beast.

      However I think it has ‘suddenly dawned’ on the establishment that they’re not dealing with a cowed and compliant Scottish Government. 😉

    242. Chic McGregor says:

      Follow up to previous prescience claim (thanks to a reminder from Munguin) here is Alan Bisset in Nov 2013:

      Don’t know if Alan is in the running for the new Bard or not, but if there is ever to be a Seer post he’s a gimme.

    243. Still Positive. says:

      Chic McGregor @ 1.o6

      Thanks for the link – totally prescient.

      Does he write poetry? Although from what I have read that does not seem to be a requirement for our new Makar.

    244. heedtracker says:

      Yes Alistair was a personal friend of mine for a long time. I am very sorry to say that his activities of late are something I really cannot condone.

      You dont need to. If you live long enough you’re going to have a friend or friends that do ghastly things. When he’s an old man and reflects on his career, this episode will haunt him. He could have saved at least some face by resigning and aplogising before the million quid enquiry got going. He only confessed when he learned he’d been found out.

      On a far wider scale, if wasn’t for the Libdem going into coalition with the tory gits, there might still even be a LibDem party but history is written by the winners and the toryboys won England for decades to come, all thanks to the Libdems.

      Carmichael is so dirty now, he cant even expect an OBE, let alone get as richly UK rewarded as say Sir Daniel Alexander, currently UKOK bullshitting the Chinese.

      Happy New Year of the Monkey, Carbuncle.

    245. Robert Peffers says:

      @Audrey Macmillan says: 8 February, 2016 at 1:55 pm:

      “This is all SNP nonsense designed to hide the true facts of the voting system from ordinary people.

      FACT: the more votes the SNP get the more their votes will be rendered useless. If they get 100% of the vote then their vote will be divided down by 100% to zero in the list vote – SO THEY CAN’T GET seats on the list.

      FACT: The system was designed to give smaller parties a chance and not the big parties.

      FACT: An SNP vote is simply a vote for unionism.

      FACT: Greens and RISE have been working away at the grass roots for independence far longer than the SNP.”

      Bloody Hilarious! Whit’s yon quotation again aboot, “Wha the Gods seek to destroy”?

      Oh! Aye! Noo Ah mind it, “Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad”. It was spoken by Prometheus in Henry Wadsworth Longfellow’s poem “The Masque of Pandora”,1875).

      This ane’s ae wee puckle madder nor yon Hatter gadgie.

    246. yesindyref2 says:

      @ Audrey Macmillan says:

      This is all SNP nonsense designed to hide the true facts of the voting system from ordinary people.

      FACT: … If they get 100% of the vote then their vote will be divided down by 100% to zero

      Kevin, is that you?

    247. Giving Goose says:

      Heedtracker re Carbuncle.

      Why did he do it?
      Where are the moral boundaries within him?

    248. gillie says:

      JK Rowling to release a new book actually based in Scotland, which is a first.

      “Harry Potter and the Ardrossan Misogynist”

      Cracking title.

    249. frogesque says:

      @Sandy 12.29

      If an MP becomes bankrupt then they are out on their lug. Hence my comment on this these yesterday.

      It is the absolute surefire way to get shot of the conniving liar.

      On tablet and can’t give link but shouldn’t be too difficult to find on the Parliamentary website.

    250. Chic McGregor says:


      If you think about it a little bit more. If 100% vote SNP then that means NOBODY is voting for anyone else – right?

      So the SNP would get 100% of the list seats.

      In fact the SNP would get 100% of the list seats without even having to get 100% of the vote.

      Probably 85% – 90% would suffice for that depending on how the list vote was split between non SNP parties.

      Even in the most extreme possible pact scenario, where every non SNP party Lab, Con, Lib, SSP, Greens etc. got together and agreed that all their supporters should vote for just one party per region and assuming their supporters went along with it, the SNP would still require less than 95% of the vote to win 100% of the seats.

    251. Ruby says:

      Petra says:

      ‘especially as there seems to have been ongoing issues (common knowledge) between her and Dr Majid.’

      Ruby replies

      Just because you have issues with someone of a different race doesn’t make you racist.
      Nor is saying that it is the Pakistani members of the group who are causing all the trouble.

      This situation whereby people of a different race can’t be criticised is ridiculous as is claiming someone abbreviating the term Pakistani is racist.

    252. Chic McGregor says:

      @Still Positive

      He is indeed and a playwright.

      You might want to check out the following, although I still cannot bear to re listen to it myself yet.

    253. gerry parker says:

      Liz g.

      I think that’s getting pretty close to the truth.

      It would be a pity if all we were doing was replacing the Monklands Mafia with the Monklands Misoginists in 2016 and 2017.

      However, the ultimate aim is independence.

    254. Ghillie says:

      Orkney Four! WELL DONE!!

      What a relief.
      I didn’t realise how tense I felt for you until this decision came out today.

      Some justice was served today. But not all. I believe that you should have won the entire case outright but can you imagine the fallout if that test case had become precededent? There was alot at stake here and I think the judges played it too canny.

      The Orkney Four, you made history. You showed intense courage. Thank you.x

    255. Chic McGregor says:

      Re Bard above, should of course have been Makar. Too late at night, too soon after Burns night maybe.

    256. Ghillie says:

      As for Mr Forsyth,

      My advice to him would be not to pretend he can play with the big boys.

      John Swinney knows what he is doing.

    257. Grouse Beater says:

      The Scotsman is up for sale – again. You’ll need £10 million.

      Some criticism of our purblind journalists here:

    258. Dorothy Devine says:

      I have just visited the Herald and have to ask what Scots and Scotland has ever done to deserve such a bunch of dishonest journalists.

      Also , I a have just seen a brilliant trail for an RT programme on the death of mainstream media!

    259. Chic McGregor says:


      Saw that on Twitter. Tried to reply -‘I though it was past its smell by date?’ but got a message saying twitter though my reply was spam??

    260. Les Wilson says:

      One of Nana’s links show the way that the Scottish block grant will be reduced no matter what.
      This is a big deal. Naysayers minds could be changed by this.If we get it out there to them, it could tip the balance.

    261. Ghillie says:

      Oh eck, what if JK buys it!?

      With loose change.

    262. Macart says:

      @Grouse Beater

      Yeah, I’d heard that. Asking £10m? Not a chance. 😀

      If they come back nearer to five they’d be getting closer to the mark and in todays declining print market they’d be lucky to get that.

    263. Valerie says:

      Ruby at 8.28

      I hope I have misread that last statement.

      Just to be clear, the term Paki IS racist abuse.

      If the term has been used by anybody, there needs to be consequences.

      If you have any issue with anyone, you don’t bring race into the argument. You argue your case on principle, content, morality, fact, evidence etc.

      I would absolutely call out anyone using that racist term.

    264. Nana says:

      @Les Wilson

      NHS: Rules preventing tax-avoiding companies from securing health care contracts scrapped

    265. One_Scot says:

      £10 Million, I wouldn’t give that piece of crap £10 pound.

    266. I am in a flood of tears after reading yesterday that Alistair Carmichael isn’t a rich man.

      What a shame

      But then his four constituents aren’t rich people either, but that didn’t stop him from trying to bankrupt them by claiming his legal costs from them.

    267. Ruby says:

      Valerie says:

      Just to be clear, the term Paki IS racist abuse.

      Ruby replies


    268. frogesque says:

      On a proper growed up pc now

      The full deal on MPs and bankruptcy (sequestration in S……d

      Basically can’t sit or vote in HoC and if not discharged in 6 months then the seat becomes vacant.

      Insanity (Lunacy?) seems to be another route to get rid!

    269. Nana says:

      @Les Wilson

      NHS selloff becomes clearer with each passing day…

      NHS: Rules preventing tax-avoiding companies from securing health care contracts scrapped

    270. heedtracker says:

      It would be fascinating to see if the Scotsman could make money if it was not so far right, so yoon and just plain old less shite. I cant remember the last time I read a UKOK newspaper that wasn’t full of it.

      Yesterday UKOK gas production news poured out of the BBC etc, Scotland completely airbrushed from all of it. All of this energy resource comes from Scotland’s vast north Atlantic oceanic territory, a giant reserve of energy and food that Scotland merely hands over to its rich neighbour. In turn, UKOK hackdom then trolls Scotland with stuff like

      too small, poor, stoopid

    271. Lenny Hartley says:

      O/T been sans Internet for couple of days duke to upgrade not going smoothly, anyway on train and can use its internet. I heard on the boat this morning that the Royal Navy has ordered patrol ships contract to South Korea! surely they are complex warships and the contract was promised to Scotland? another Vow broken.

    272. frogesque says:

      Heedtracker @ 9.49

      Perhaps we should be in the rabbit breeding business!

    273. Les Wilson says:


      This is strong stuff, more evidence, if anymore was needed.

      You do a great service to Wings with your excellent links, a must read, thanks.

    274. Fred says:

      Anent the current debate on the “Land” issue, I’ve just re-read Ian Grimble’s “The Trial of Patrick Sellar”, Sellar himself was just a thug on the make but much of the book concerns James Loch (Tam Dalyell’s ancestor) the evil master-mind behind the Sutherland “Clearances” & apologist for the deeds perpetrated in a remote county where the people were at the mercy of a factor who was also the law, the countess backed the factor and the parish ministers were appointees who (with one honourable exception) were complicit in the destruction of a people. Shocking stuff, get a copy if this 50 year old book if you possibly can.

    275. Valerie says:

      Ruby says:
      9 February, 2016 at 9:40 am
      Valerie says:

      Just to be clear, the term Paki IS racist abuse.

      Ruby replies


      It is a term used in racial abuse all the time. It was used many years ago, in the same way as the ‘n’ word – would you use that referring to a black person in your group? Chinkie,Spic, etc are also racially abusive.

      If someone reports you for racial abuse for using the word Paki, I can assure you, it will be treated as racial abuse.

      Why in God’s name would you refer to someone’s race, unless you want to imply something negative?

      From what I’ve gleaned from the discussion on here, the implications are akin to saying a certain race denotes trouble making. If a member in my branch used the term, I would be creating until I knew it had been dealt with. I don’t want to sit beside them in my branch.

    276. Tam Jardine says:

      What a difference a day makes- yesterday morning I was expecting the brave Orkney petitioners to be facing financial ruin and a second, onerous crowdfunder hastily launched to try and cobble together punitive costs.

      £150k of costs will be a sair yin for Carmichael but he brought it all on himself. One of the biggest problems with Westminster is that poor standards of conduct and lack of ethics has become the norm… hence of course Carmichael authorises a leak of a confidential civil service memorandum because… well why not?

      The outcome of this case will be given zero oxygen down south I would imagine: the number of folk up here I have spoken to who were unaware of it surprised me. Our masters don’t want folk to catch on that the powers that be can be brought to book as individuals.

      Of course the legal fees are astronmical for both sides but I the fact that so many folk contributed to the crowdfunder and have covered the costs and then some is a tribute to the people of Scotland. I am proud to have been able to punt my wee bit in tohelp and would do so again in a heartbeat.

      There is a warning in this story for politicians- one that should be spread far and wide.

    277. Valerie says:

      For Ruby, have a read

      Scotland, I’m proud to say, hastens at the forefront, for many years, in trying to stamp out ALL forms of racist behaviour.

      Get informed.

    278. heedtracker says:

      frogesque says:
      9 February, 2016 at 9:53 am
      Heedtracker @ 9.49

      Perhaps we should be in the rabbit breeding business!

      By the time Scotland does finally become a nation state, that’s all our long to rein over us neighbours will have left behind. Rancid The Graun, Rupert Carrell etc are ferocious yoons but a while back they went massive on an English bloke that wanted to strap himself to Rockall, thereby claiming that vast area of the Atlantic not Scots but UKOK. Cant mind what happened to him.

      Fact is, Scottish energy is one of the great rock n roll swindles of our lives and not just because our country suffers home fuel poverty, in a land that floats on hydrocarbon energy.

      And then same UKOK media creep show tries to terrorise Scots with their massive %70 not UKOK oil price crash. so vote UKOK sweaties. None of them ever ask out loud why petrol’s not dropped 70% ofcourse.

    279. Bob Mack says:


      I think times have changed. When I was a young boy it was a normal thing to refer to people like “Johnny the Pole”,

      Glasgow people used to allude to going for a “Chinky”,or a Chinese carry out, or as my mother often said when sending me for milk,the Paki shop.

      It was not intended to be malicious in any way,but was actually just the way we referred to people.

      There was no political correctness then I suppose. It is important to emphasise that foreigners were not hated or despised or ridiculed intentionally. They were mostly regarded with fondness. It is just that they and we took a while to get to know each other before names were exchanged in most cases.

    280. Fred says:

      Our thoughts surely must be with Chancellor George Osborne this morning as his doctor brother faces possibly being struck-off. That’ll go down well with the Oxford Marmalade what!

    281. Petra says:

      @ ArtyHetty says at 9:08 pm ….. ”Petra I have a book called, ‘Black and Green Gold, Aberdeen’s continuing role in the Energy Revolution’, published 2010, by the Balmoral Group. Written by those closely involved in the industry, it was clear that the UKOK government had started to dismantle the oil industry and that it was stepped up a pace in the run up to the tories taking power in 2010 ……The book indicates that there was plenty of scope to invest and expand the industry, but that it was being knocked back with high taxation and lack of investment, by westminster …. It is a deliberate and orchestrated plan to finish off the industry in Scotland’s waters. Now we have news of success re gas in Shetland, which must be north, north britain, because it sure as hell ain’t got any connection to Scotland as far as the daily propaganda is concerned …”

      Thanks for that ArtyHetty. Another book to add to my list …. and never seem to get the time to read them!

      I had no idea that this has been going on for some time ArtyHetty. That this has been their plan for some time now. I suppose it accounts for the high taxation, lack of investment and so on. I’d put that down to being short sighted and through sheer greed. Seems not. Seems that they’re detemined to finish Scotland off before we become Independent.

      @ rogesque says at 8:11 am … ”If an MP becomes bankrupt then they are out on their lug. Hence my comment on this these yesterday. It is the absolute surefire way to get shot of the conniving liar.”

      Will we get shot of Carmichael rogesque or will some of his Unionist pals come to his rescue?

      @ Ruby says at 8:28 am ”Just because you have issues with someone of a different race doesn’t make you racist. Nor is saying that it is the Pakistani members of the group who are causing all the trouble. This situation whereby people of a different race can’t be criticised is ridiculous as is claiming someone abbreviating the term Pakistani is racist.”

      I totally agree with you Ruby on the first two counts however using the term ‘Paki’ is considered to be racist in this country, although I personally think it’s taking PC to the extremes (through abbreviation) such as a person from Kurdistan is known as a Kurd (and not offended).

      However the comment that Julie McNulty has been accused of saying, IF it’s correct, is ”get the Pakis out of the Party.” I take that as including people that she doesn’t even know at all, has had no dealings with, and would be construed as being racist. I hope for her sake (and ours) that this is incorrect as from all accounts she’s been a hard working, committed member of the SNP.

    282. heedtracker says:

      Should say that The Guardian thing on the UKOK rabbits of their Scotland region via Rupert Carrell, is tragi comic following Carbuncle losing his expenses claims yesterday. Which is why it sticks out like a boil on the arse of UKOK hackdom.

      Back in UK elections 2008, progressive liberal phoney’s of the Graun announced vote LibDem UK, cometh the hour, cometh the Liberals having boosted Crash Gordon, Bomber Blair etc for a solid decade.

      So its particular fitting that the red tory Graun non report on a cute rabbit, continues that lot’s appalling monstering of everything about Scottish democracy, as the LibDem fade away in disgrace, only few years later.

      Its still the #SNPbad, red and blue toryboy world but five more years and they’ll be kicked out of Scotland for good.

    283. Andrew McLean says:

      Ruby 9:40
      You ask “Why” is using the words ‘Paki’ wrong? Really?

      From someone who worked for years in England, Hoy Jock, being shouted across the site pissed me off, and it was intentional! Eh Jock you like that Jock, what’s up with you Jock cant take a joke Jock!

      Yes, definitely! Paki is racist word no matter how, when or why they are used.

      Treading carefully, it’s an age thing, a lot of older people would use this term without the intent of being offensive, but the offence is caused in the mind of the offended not the offender.

      Even if these words are used to describe a local shop or take away, the words still have racist meaning.

      These words have been used as weapons to hurt people, and make them feel different, unwelcome and not valued. As you can see from racist graffiti connected to racist attacks, racist groups and racist incidents the intent to be both extremely hurtful and offensive. The intention clearly is to hurt people who its directed towards who will often feel frightened and threatened.

      Sometimes people use these words as slang words and have no intention of hurting or upsetting anyone. However, if you had experienced this word while being shouted at, or whilst someone attacked you or tried to hurt you, would you want to hear it being used?

      It may also be said that the word Paki is simply short for Pakistani, or that Chinky is simply short for Chinese, but because of the way these words have been used, they have become damaging, hurtful and racist.

      Remember many people who are called these words are not actually from Pakistan, so often people are being judged on their skin colour or appearance, plus, ask yourself this – do the people who use these words usually say them when they are inside the shop or take away? If not, why not?!
      Unacceptable terminology – derogatory terms that refer to somebody’s race are clearly unacceptable and discriminatory. Always remember that certain words have the potential to cause offence even when you did not intend any offence.
      And that goes for sexual equality as well, we all have the right to be respected for who we are!

    284. frogesque says:

      Bob Mack @ 10.33

      I agree, initially there was no distinction between going to the Asian shop, the Co-op or the Spar. Likewise going for a ‘Chinky’, we spent money they prospered and were happy.

      I think things changed and got really ugly during a short reign of (60s?) skinhead terror that indulged in ‘Paki bashing’

      Youth Hosteling in Norway early 70s I was given the title, Scotty, and got 5 star treatment! They loved us. It’s about intention more than a label.

      These days (nearing 70 masel) I am more circumspect about race/ ethnicity and aware of sensitivities.

    285. handclapping says:

      No detriment eh?
      The Google CEO is being paid more than Google has paid in UK tax for the last 5 years
      The UK chancellor flies out to Superbowl 50 sponsored by Google
      Definitely no detriment there eh?

      We have got to get out of this place SNPx2

    286. Petra says:

      Nana I see that you’ve posted a number of great links as per usual usual. I hope that everyone on here reads them and is passing the data all over social media.

    287. TD says:

      Alan Mackintosh at 11:55 pm

      Re punitive damages in liar Carmichael’s case, you are right that the court in this case was not an ordinary Scottish court. But the issue of punitive damages is still a red herring, quote deliberately spun by Carmichael. Using this term positions him as the “wronged” party.

      In systems which allow punitive damages, it works like this. The person raising the action suffers a loss and if they can prove that then they are awarded damages equal to the cost of the harm done to them. But if a jury (and I think it is normally a jury rather than just a judge) thinks that the financial compensation does not sufficiently rebuke the person causing the harm, then they can award punitive damages.

      But the Carmichael case was never about Carmichael being wronged or suffering a loss. He was the person against whom the action was raised. Even in systems which allow punitive damages there is no question of them being awarded against the person raising the action. Therefore for him to talk about “punitive damages” was just a cynical attempt to manipulate the public and put fear into the Orkney 4. The best he could ever have hoped for was to win his costs.

      By positioning himself as the wronged party he was trying to rehabilitate himself. So his cynicism, lying and manipulation continue even now. Thank goodness the court had the wisdom to not only call him out as a liar but deny him a single penny in costs.

    288. scotspine says:


      Surely you are referring to the already announced contract for Royal Fleet Auxiliary tankers? and not the ocean patrol boats?

    289. Nana says:

      Fred 10.37

      I posted a link re Osborne’s brother and google stifling news reports. Not appeared as yet.

    290. Nana says:

      SNP msp Bill Kidd nominated for Nobel peace prize.I’m sure the burd will tell us all about it later.

    291. handclapping says:

      Anent Carmichael’s expenses, I fail to see why the Orkney Four should have to pay anything towards the first day when Carmichael argued that the law was not applicable. Ignorance of the law is no excuse and he is not only a solicitor but a lawmaker, he should have known that the law applied to him.

      The second part was a trial of the facts in this instance which is what the petitioners craved and I have no quarrel with the judges on that but the fact that the petitioners should have to pay for a lawmaker to query what the law is sticks in my craw.

    292. frogesque says:


      It’s been covered by the D.Fail, seems he has a history of malpractice.

      George Osborne’s psychiatrist brother is battling to save his career after it was revealed that he has been suspended as a doctor following serious allegations of misconduct.

      Adam Osborne, 38, who has a private practice in Central London, last week had his licence suspended by the General Medical Council (GMC) after being accused of having a two-year sexual affair with a highly vulnerable woman patient who has psychiatric issues, is married and has two children.

      The news comes five years after he was suspended by the GMC for ‘dishonest and misleading’ behaviour in prescribing drugs to his cocaine-addicted prostitute lover.
      The latest blow means he cannot practise in any capacity as a doctor until an investigation into the new allegations has been concluded.

      The suspension will prove highly embarrassing for the Chancellor, coming as he prepares for Wednesday’s crucial Budget, the last before May’s General Election.
      If the investigation results in a Fitness To Practise hearing, which is held in public, Dr Osborne could face further sensitive personal information being revealed. And if the allegations are upheld, he could be struck off.

      A GMC spokesman said that the interim suspension was not an indication of guilt.

      In the wake of the hearing, Dr Osborne’s personal website was taken down. His Linkedin page states that he has a special interest in adult attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, personality disorders, depression and anxiety.
      Dr Osborne currently runs Devonport Psychiatry, which is based in Marylebone, Central London, but is officially registered to his home address in Shepherd’s Bush, West London, which he shares with his wife Rahala Noor, a plastic surgeon.

      Read more:
      Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

      Rev – para breaks are down to the D. Fail, spare me the hammers please!

    293. Valerie says:

      For anyone saying not using the term Paki is just PC now, must never have seen the term scrawled in spray paint on the local shops.

      Scots used it as a term of abuse, to deface property.

      If you are unaware the term is racist, you can read my link above, and find yourself guilty of ‘unintentional racism’, ie. ignorance. You will also find reference to racism about English.

      Folk have to learn that the law is on the side of the victim, and they define if they have been racially slurred.

      Please read the link, and be clear.

    294. Nana says:

      Just received email from Greenpeace, they have built a 10 metre high wall on parliaments doorstep. Massive sign says ‘You’ve been fracked’

      You can follow the live blog here, scroll down for pics.

    295. Fred says:

      Nana, a wee bit in the Guardian, so much for an expensive education.

    296. Petra says:

      @ Ruby …. ”Just because you have issues with someone of a different race doesn’t make you racist. Nor is saying that it is the Pakistani members of the group who are causing all the trouble. This situation whereby people of a different race can’t be criticised is ridiculous as is claiming someone abbreviating the term Pakistani is racist.”

      Ooops in my last post I should have included alongside ”I totally agree with you Ruby on the first two counts …. ”if it could be proven that the Pakistani members of the group had been causing all the trouble.”

    297. Petra says:


      @ frogesque says at 11:09 am ….. Re Adam Osborne ….”The news comes five years after he was suspended by the GMC for ‘dishonest and misleading’ behaviour in prescribing drugs to his cocaine-addicted prostitute lover.”

      Handy for his addleheaded ‘snorter’ of a brother too. No wonder the economy is going down the stank.

    298. Fred says:

      Thanks frogesque, lovely family.

    299. Proud Cybernat says:

      It would, imo, have been totally inappropriate for the judges to have awarded expenses/costs to Carmichael given the fact that it was the judges themselves who decided that the case should go ahead against Carmichael, that there was a case for him to answer. If the O4 had to pay punitive costs then they would have been punished for what was effectively a decision of the court.

      But all in all – a satisfying outcome. All politicians should take note. We, The People, have the will and the means to hold you to account.

      You have been telt.

    300. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The National continues to broaden out into a well informed news magazine with good serious comment all through it. Particularly good exposition on America today by Cat Boyd and a double page spread on the Massacre of Glencoe which every body in Scotland should read (if for no other reason than to understand Good King Billie’s part in it).

    301. mike cassidy says:

      A friend working on a construction site in England almost 50 years ago had a simple but devastating way of dealing with being referred to as ‘jock’.

      The individual who kept doing it was continually addressed as ‘nigel’.

      He cracked by midday!

      “My name’s not Nigel”, he screamed.

      “My name’s not Jock”

      Job done.

    302. carjamtic says:


      Can’t do the archive link bit…

      Nobel Peace Prize

      SNP MSP Bill Kidd nominated…..


    303. Nana says:


      thanks for posting that. The link I posted was from twitter showing how google have attempted to suppress the story.

      What else might they be covering up for the tories.

    304. Nana says:


      Thanks for posting the link, I stupidly forgot.
      I’m so excited today seeing the sun it must have addled my brain, easily done to be honest!

      Good day for a tidy up in the garden.

    305. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Can anybody tell me where it is that the fracking that lots of people are getting agitated about is taking place?
      Or has it just been permitted somewhere or something?

      Or are some people clutching at straws trying to make political capital out of something that actually hasn’t happened?

    306. frogesque says:

      @Nana 11.36

      We have frogs out in the pond today – let’s just say they are being ‘romantic’ lol

    307. heraldnomore says:

      Nana, sun? Whit! Whauraboots?

    308. The Rough Bounds says:

      Valerie 10.15am.

      Sheesh! It’s apparently ok to call someone from Afghanistan an Afghani without it being considered ‘racist’. Same with Hindustani and other similar words with the word ‘stani’ at the end. But use the word Paki and suddenly we get people like Valerie jumping up and down and saying she will ‘create’ until the matter is dealt with.

      She also asks why would anyone refer to someone’s race unless it was to imply something negative. I take it then that we are not to refer to the Native Americans as, per se, ‘Native Americans’ because by using that term we are implying something negative. What nonsense.

      Paki(stani), from what I have read, is a made up word from Punjab, Afghan, Kashmir and Indus. I have also read that Paki may stem from the Urdu root ‘Pak’, meaning pure. Either way, who cares?

      We may be becoming too precious and over sensitive in our attitudes. I suggest that there are other things we should be dealing with at the moment Valerie,

    309. Doug McG says:

      BBC punting Wee Ruthie hard again , on the Daily Politics for an hour , almost co-hosting. It’s funny really because she isn’t even a Tory , the way she vacillates is true Libdum.

    310. heedtracker says:

      Paki(stani), from what I have read, is a made up word from Punjab, Afghan, Kashmir and Indus. I have also read that Paki may stem from the Urdu root ‘Pak’, meaning pure. Either way, who cares?

      I do. Dont know what a Pakistani thinks but try calling say a Glaswegian with not white skin colour a paki. Its extremely offensive racism, which is why our UKOK thug meeja goons at the DR went front page headline yesterday, as everyone bloody knows.

    311. Valerie says:

      At The Rough Bounds

      What a surprise to see you jumping in on a discussion about racist terms, and decrying what is law. Feel free to ignore the law..

      Yes, perhaps you have better things to do, after all, correcting folk over racist terms, and linking to the SG site as evidence, is just a time waster.


    312. ronnie anderson says:

      @ dave mc ewan hill its a post on by Pat Lee, that the SG are alledged to have asked Westminster for devolved fracking rights ,backed up by anti fracker Buchan, its a Solidarity SNP Bad.

    313. heedtracker says:

      Doug McG says:
      9 February, 2016 at 12:19 pm
      BBC punting Wee Ruthie hard again , on the Daily Politics for an hour , almost co-hosting. It’s funny really because she isn’t even a Tory , the way she vacillates is true Libdum.

      She also has hardly any votes. If she was an English tory in their FPTP, she’d back to her old job, at the BBC, oh wait

      In 2009 after having left the BBC to study at Glasgow University, Davidson joined the Conservative Party. She said she was inspired by David Cameron’s call, in the wake of the United Kingdom parliamentary expenses scandal, for people who had never been political before to get involved. She was encouraged by the Scottish Conservative Party’s Director of Media Ramsay Jones[9] to join the party and stand for the Westminster constituency of Glasgow North East at the 2009 by-election, which was triggered by the resignation of Labour MP and Speaker of the House, Michael Martin.

      She came in third with 5.2% of the vote, losing to Labour’s Willie Bain.”

      That 5.2% is about 1500 votes, not 15,000, fifty hundred.

      Another good example of BBC propaganda, presenting her as some kind of giant politico today.

    314. Robert Peffers says:

      @jdman says: 8 February, 2016 at 8:40 pm:

      ” … “Shetland … UK gas? Isn’t it Scotlands gas as it’s in Scottish waters? Maybe someone could put me right on this.”

      No! Petra, it isn’t Scottish Gas. It isn’t even UK gas.
      It is Gas from, “Extra-Regio-Territory”. Now there’s a thing!

      That phrase, “Extra-Regio”, indicates the territory in question lies outwith all existing UK Regions as it apparently belongs in none of them. That being so I wonder what the UK government would do if, say, Russia were to move in and claim it belonged to them?

      If, according to Westminster,it is not a United Kingdom regional Territory then it must belong to some other state’s territory.

      Oh! Wait! Could it belong to the Rebuplic of Ireland?

    315. Andrew McLean says:

      The Rough Bounds says:12:00 pm Valerie 10.15am.

      The term is racist, you may not think it is but that’s not the frigging point! Many people do, they find it offensive! I don’t care if you think its precious or oversensitive, you are not at the bloody receiving end.

      That’s why the enemy’s of the independence movement put it slap across the front page! stop being so bloody obtuse.

      As for a SNP member using such language, in fact being so politically naïve, regardless of time spent, remember membership is a privilege not a right, you have responsibilities not to bring the party into disrepute. So as a member of the SNP, never mind a position of responsibility if you cant control your mouth then regardless of 40 years or 4 seconds then hell mend you!

    316. galamcennalath says:

      Names and racism. A lot of collective race / national names were probably classed as nicknames decades ago. Usually used innocently but like personal nicknames almost always had a double edge.

      There was a general fondness and familiarity in using nicknames. However, there was often a touch of poor wit or questionable humour often highlighting physical distinctiveness. When I was a kid, some kids were stuck with nicknames for years which would probably now be classed as verbal bullying!

      Some collective names were undoubtedly always racial, often having roots from a time where the group was dominated, ‘n’ and ‘k’ words for instance.

      Personal nicknames do seem a lot less common these days. Collective nicknames have gone. The world is more politically correct in avoiding labelling based on something like appearance.

      The problem is that when one group wishes to attack (even in a non physical sense) another group, then any nickname in common use is instantly turned into a hate word.

      The world and its societies change.

    317. Valerie says:

      The worst kind of racist is the likes of what is posted by
      The Rough Bounds, we are too precious, too sensitive – how thick and disgusting.

      You would never talk like that if you knew or heard racial abuse being practiced.

      You seem to deliberately misinterpret what I posted. Referring to someone in discussion by their correct ethnic origin is not racist, unless you attach some derogatory generalisation.

      Afghani is the accepted term, just as Scot is. If you can’t see the difference in using Paki, then get a grip, and be open to being educated – by the link I posted, or using Google.

    318. Valerie says:

      @Andrew McLean

      Well said!

      I have deliberately said in my previous posts, that its the VICTIM who defines racism in the reporting of a crime.

      That was in the hope of those less well informed would take the hint.

    319. Petra says:

      @ Macart says at 11:30 am … ”Bill Kidd SNP nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.”

      Well done Bill. I wonder if we’ll hear about this on the news tonight?!

      @ Robert Peffers says at 12:29 pm …. ”No! Petra, it isn’t Scottish Gas. It isn’t even UK gas. It is Gas from, “Extra-Regio-Territory”. Now there’s a thing! That phrase, “Extra-Regio”, indicates the territory in question lies outwith all existing UK Regions as it apparently belongs in none of them. That being so I wonder what the UK government would do if, say, Russia were to move in and claim it belonged to them? If, according to Westminster,it is not a United Kingdom regional Territory then it must belong to some other state’s territory. Oh! Wait! Could it belong to the Rebuplic of Ireland?”

      Thanks for that Robert. VERY interesting indeed. Russia? That would be a laugh. What about Norway? That would really hack them off.

    320. Anagach says:

      Pakistani is the correct term. ‘Paki’ is a pejorative shorting.

      Pejorative shorting e.g. ‘Nips’ for Japanese etc.

      Us Scotch should know better 🙂

    321. scotspine says:


      In actual fact , without going in to section and act, someone ( a bystander) who overhears the remark (whether our not of the ethnic origin of the “victim”) and is offended by the remark, in so far as they PERCIEVE it as racist, can report out as an alleged crime and expect it to be investigated.

      Oh, and that is whether or not the person who is the intended target is offended, or indeed ever aware of the remark.

    322. macbeda says:


      BBC news let slip that 42 Billion Barrels of oil extracted from North Sea since 1970

      Does this mean that with an average of around $50 per barrel price (average yearly outputs djusted for inflation since 1970 ) and an average petroleum tax rate of 30 % the UK government has wasted around $1 Trillion of Scotlands wealth on UK at today’s costs.

      I say wasted because I see no benefit to the UK in any of this.

      Of course my numbers could be complete bollox but it makes you think.

      Have a nice day

      Vote SNP x 2

    323. orri says:

      Calling someone a “paki” can be the same as calling a scot english. Pakistan is a nation state. It is not a race. Given the partition of India it’s verging on offensive to simply assume that you can tell just by looking at someone where they or, more probably, their parents came from originally.

      Until we hear the whole story I’m going with the default setting of this being blown up out of all proportion by a press keen to present the SNP be an anti-muslim racist organisation. Further to which it might be worth pointing to the high numbers in and around Sturgeons seat. I doubt that there’d be enough switching to Labour or some other party to defeat her in the constituency but even denting her majority might be seen as worth the effort.

    324. heedtracker says:

      Christ almighty, BBC 2 Daily Politic lunchtime show just one long party political broadcast on behalf of Ruth Davidson/Scot toryboys. Even my Slovene girlfriend got to do his vote tory vox pop thing for UKOK toryboy world, looked pretty gauche on camera, to say the least. Practice though, future UKOK Lord Tomkinski, Ljubljana West. BBC corruption really is getting worse by the day.

    325. Valerie says:


      Yes, and I have been that bystander. I witnessed an Aisan woman in a carpark, being racially abused, but the driver drove off as I was walking over.

      I asked the woman if she wanted to report the incident to the Police, as we could phone them, or go to a Police station, and I would make a statement.

      She had children in the car, and was tearful, but said No, she just wanted to get home.

      What makes me sick, are the folk who refuse to even try and see the other persons point of view, and how degrading racism is.

      Children are not born racists, they are taught in the home, by example. It’s up to everyone to react to a racist comment, and there is NO way I would not react within a branch meeting to racist language. I’m pretty sure the majority of my branch would be the same.

    326. John H. says:

      Chic McGregor @ 8.28am.

      No wonder you can’t bring yourself to listen to it Chic. It is beautiful, but it hurts.

    327. Papadox says:


      Some old Tory dears will be needing their incontenance pads change (privately of course) Ruthy reminds them so much of the BLESSED MARGARET.

      EBC DONT EVEN PRETEND TO BE IMPARTIAL ANYMORE. Kez will get her hour on daily propaganda next. F*** THE SNP AND SCOTLAND.

    328. Bob Mack says:


      Please don’t be hard on the Rough Bounds. The problem you see is this. If you type the phrase “Uppity Jocks” into Google,you will obtain a list of contributions who all have used the phrase in their articles, newspapers,blogs and every other medium you can imagine.

      Seemingly a term of endearment.

      Racism in any format is not just a Scottish issue,but indeed a UK and worldwide issue.. I cite Donald Trump and Cameron on accepting more Syrian refugees as examples. These leaders practice racism daily and often set the tone which allows racism to prosper.They lead by example.

      Historical perspective on these issues is important as well. The UK in my lifetime had colonies all over the world,and treated them all as servile.

      This is reflected in television programmes like “It ain’t half hot mum”,and indeed as recently as Top gear and Clarkson “slope” comment whilst on a trip to Burma.

      As a society we declare intolerance to racism,but in reality our leaders and National and International broadcasters have ,and still do utilise it as a source of amusement.

      No wonder people become confused

    329. louis.b.argyll says:

      Some days the propaganda is less effective.
      Today, lovely and sunny, many swithering conservatives will be out for a walk.

    330. Luigi says:

      The timing of the DR Labour story of alledged racist comments by and SNP candidate is interesting. Apparently the actual event took place ages ago, so either the source, or the DR Labour has been sitting on this for quite some time. So why now? Well, it could be an attempt to deflect the Carmichael ruling (a bad day for the union!). However, there is another, more sinister twist:

      Two days after a Scottish Asian, Anas Sarwar, sensationally tops the Glasgow candidate list for Labour, an SNP RACIST smear story breaks. Interesting.

    331. Bob Mack says:


      Yes I quite agree. The media are planning in advance these days. Racism has no place in any real society,but it has its place in an attempted smear story.

      Time will tell.

    332. Breastplate says:

      What a fucking ludicrous argument.
      Using the word Paki while telling others using the word Paki is racist, it totally undermines the argument that using the word Paki is racist.
      Wait a moment, perhaps I’m racist now.
      Right, who said Jehovah?

    333. galamcennalath says:

      heedtracker says:

      “one long party political broadcast on behalf of Ruth Davidson/Scot toryboys.”

      Interesting to see how this develops. It was oft said that the BBC in Scotland was pro Labour because of personal links and social circles of key personnel. If they sudden switch to being pro-Tory then it implies the bias was always pro Union rather than party political. Previously SLab was seen as the champion of the Union, perhaps now the Tories will be seen in that role.

      I’m not unhappy.

      Labour were seen as a credible and acceptable face of the Union to too many Scots. If that is removed, it will be a good thing!

      Also, the Tories are fundimentally toxic to most Scots so having them as the official face of the Union is a good thing too! If the 25% of till-death-BritNats rally round the Tories, then we’ll and good!

      If the Tories front IndyRef2 for their Union, because there is virtually no SLab left, then that is perhaps ideal.

    334. Jack Murphy says:

      Re Alistair Carmichael MP and oor LibDem former Secretary of State for Scotland
      Found this on Wings over Scotland Twitter:-
      ………………….”Daily Mail………………………….

      “Unfair ruling deals blow to democracy.” [!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]


      Almost as bad as the Daily Retard. 🙁

    335. bugsbunny says:

      Rough bounds@12.00,

      Once upon a time, in Eastern Europe, the first language of Ashkenazi Jews was Yiddish. Good luck in getting away with publicly, especially in front of an televised audience, calling someone who is Jewish a Yid.


    336. Andrew McLean says:

      No it doesn’t that’s just pedantic.

      But, as Luigi correctly surmises, why give your enemy the ammunition to shoot you with, or, is the worst goal imaginable not the own-goal!

      FFS I think some here don’t realise this is war, cold, and bitter, but war!

      Discipline chaps Discipline!

    337. Robert Peffers says:

      @Bob Mack says: 9 February, 2016 at 1:07 pm:

      ” … As a society we declare intolerance to racism,but in reality our leaders and National and International broadcasters have ,and still do utilise it as a source of amusement.”

      Depends on what you define as our, “society”, Bob.

      If you mean the UK as awhole then you are correct but the UK, as a whole, is a mixter-maxter of societies. We have the true UKers who regard the UK as their country and society, The English who regard the UK as England, their country and their society, The Northern Irish who are mainly identical to the UKers, The Welsh who, (mainly), don’t really know whether they are Welsh or UKers, and the Scots who mainly know they are NOT UKers.

      This leads to a lot of confusion in regards to racism and insults. The UKers must be the most racist society on the entire Planet Earth, this reflects upon the other sub-societies in the entire United Kingdom.

      I do not know of any other society that has so many derogatory nick-names for everyone else under the Sun. This even applies to the various countrie and regions in the British Isles.

      To them there are derogatory titles even for those residing within the M25 perimeter. The class system is strong and colours the English language.

      As for those residing in England outwith the M25 Perimeter must all be given a derogatory name. Westos for the West Country people who they regard as yokles, Newcastle & the North East also get a, “Geordie”, tag. It is a long list :-

      It doesn’t stop there though. The French are, “Frogs”, the Germans, Huns, the Spaniard and all other Europeans have their tags as do any Non-Christians throughout the World. Names like Toerag, Spick, Greaser, Raghead, are rife and even British/English former colonies get the racist treatment.

      Scotland, though, has a special place in this racist society and the fact is even the anti-Racist laws don’t regard the insults to Scots as racist. Under UK Law they can get away with insulting Scots and Scotland as it seems we are exempt under these UK parliamentary acts.

    338. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s not the word, it’s the way it’s used and where. Take “honky” for instance, I’ve been called that by friends in the past, to which the customary reply is something along the lines of “you xxxxx bastit”. Or even the “n” word. It’s a laugh in the right circumstance and what psychologists would call “back-scratching” in terms of transactional analysis. People having healthy fun.

      Unfortunately the words are used as abuse by a relative minority, and as always with society the minority wins out in terms of sanctions and laws, and we all lose out and probably in some ways, become more intolerant as a society through resentment.

    339. Andrew McLean says:


      Yes you would be a right klutz!

    340. Breastplate says:

      Andrew McLean,
      wether you believe it to be a minor detail or not, it is quite clear that it is not the use of words but how they are used is the important factor.

    341. Famous15 says:

      O/T I have just completed a Yougov poll on the Scottish election,first vote,list votehow I voted in referendum,how you will vote in EU referendum,question on when to hold it,questions in immigrants and refugees etc. Also questions on cancer care and aftercare.

      I look forward to the results.

    342. bugsbunny says:

      Andrew McLean,

      I had to look up the meaning of that word: Klutz: A clumsy, awkward or foolish person. I had to read that sentence twice. I thought you had typed. “Yes, you would be a right cuntz”.


    343. galamcennalath says:

      Race, colour, appearance, religion, sexual orientation are now out as far as the basis for collective nicknames go.

      Political believes seem acceptible still, don’t they? Are they?

      Tories, after all, were originally Irish bandits I believe.

      Yoons is not intended to be a pet name for our favourite group of people. It gets used almost exclusively in a derogatory manner. I use it. Many others here use it daily. Some others do express the opinion that such labelling is unacceptable.

    344. Bob Mack says:

      The Romans were expert at insults.They had one that defined Ruth Davidson today on Daily Politics..

      “You are murder by monotony”.

    345. call me dave says:

      Lib/Dems in Holyrood asking for more SG mitigation money for Scottish ‘fuel poverty’ scheme and that the SG secures oil rig decommissioning work for the UK and Scotland.

      Aye nae bother there then, SG have money down the back of the sofa… Did the Lib/Dems not want a no vote. 🙁

      Organ donor bill just starting:

    346. Bob Mack says:


      Are you Brian Spanner?

    347. Andrew McLean says:

      No, the offence is caused in the mind of the receiver not the deliverer.

      I may be young and hip, and listen all day to rap music where the use of the N word is commonplace, but if I walked up the street singing my favourite rap song, containing this word, then as much as I love the artist, and am down with the culture, I commit an offence as I cause offence in the mind of the listener.

    348. bugsbunny says:

      Bob Mack,

      No. Are you?

    349. yesindyref2 says:

      @Andrew McLean
      Yes, that’s about it. Any word is OK in the right surroundings, we all just have to adapt to the circumstances.

    350. Andrew McLean says:


      All these years I thought they were calling me Klutz, sob, I wondered why there were so many Jewish kids in Coatbridge, sob,


    351. bugsbunny says:

      Andrew McLean,

      The most sensible answer on here yet. If you can only use terms that will create anger and division, it’s better not to use them at all. Rap artists of all colours should know better.

      And Bob Mack, so I’m a racist for using the word “Y” word, to point out a racist term, but others have typed the word “p” word and aint?

      What a warped mind you must have.


    352. Bob Mack says:

      @Bugsbunny ,

      No mate. Couldn’t live with the fame..or infamy

    353. yesindyref2 says:

      @Bob Mack
      If you were Spanner you’d be saying there’s a lot of people have it “infamy”.

    354. Bob Mack says:


      Whoa, Rein in your charger mate. I am not criticising you for anything.Read again.

      This is what happens when people jump head first to conclusions.

      Hint at joke——c word spanner–get it?

    355. frogesque says:

      Bob Mack, bugsbunny:

      Beware of shifting spanners.

      Gets coat ~~~>

    356. Breastplate says:

      Andrew McLean, I’m sorry, you’ve lost me.
      Are you saying HOW you use words is NOT as important as using words?
      I’ll await your answer but now I’ve got to do the school run.

    357. Helena Brown says:

      Luigi and Bob Mack, strange, both of us have been saying similar. I doubt that our Imperial Masters have not planted people within the ranks of the SNP, I thought so during the Referendum and I think there are more. If people can be planted in other countries to spy then getting people to join a political party, and a dangerous party who intends breaking up the wee setup is a doddle. Then wait doe an opportune moment and boom.

    358. TD says:

      Andrew McLean at 2:27 pm

      I’ve stayed out of the race debate so far, but your comment that “the offence is caused in the mind of the receiver not the deliverer” sums it up. So I if I use certain words I am defined by the reaction of another person to those words. I have no control over that reaction and yet I am defined by it. My own intention or meaning is irrelevant. And if the person is not offended, then I am not racist, even if I used the word.

      Is that really where we are with this? If that is where we are, is it a good place?

    359. bugsbunny says:

      Bob Mack,

      Apologies, I see you weren’t being serious now. I’m still smarting after being called a Unionist by Iain and Dorothy Devine. Anybody that has been a member of the SNP since 1st May 1987, (I was 19), and who has only ever voted SNP whenever they have stood, (except in 1990, I voted Labour in the Doon Valley district in the Strathclyde Regional Elections. I went to vote and saw 2 parties standing, Labour and Tory, so I held my nose and voted Labour).

      Now for a lifelong Nationalist, SNP supporter, voter and member, to be called a Unionist, or as I call this derogatory term, the “U” word, is waving a red flag to a bull.

      Just a bit edgy today. I’m neither a racist or a Unionist. If I was I would be in the local Labour Party with the other halfwits that vote for anything in a red rosette, including a bucket of shite.


    360. Bob Mack says:

      “Infamy,infamy,They’ve all got it infamy”.. The great Kenneth Williams. What a carry on eh?

    361. Andrew McLean says:

      In conclusion, imagine someone from an different background from you, came across this site after reading the comments in the Record, what would they feel, do you think included, valued, respected?

      “Fewer than 1% of the site’s readers post comments. That means the comments give you an inaccurate picture of the overall readership, ~ people who’ve come to the site looking for information to help make up their minds.”

      “People without whom we won’t win.”

    362. liz g says:

      Helena Brown @ 2.51
      Well let me make things even stranger I am also on the same page this whole thing stinks.

    363. heedtracker says:

      galamcennalath says:
      9 February, 2016 at 1:38 pm
      heedtracker says:

      “one long party political broadcast on behalf of Ruth Davidson/Scot toryboys.”

      Interesting to see how this develops. It was oft said that the BBC in Scotland was pro Labour because of personal links and social circles of key personnel.

      Tory BBC is establishment BBC, so England gets UK tory BBC, Scotland gets UK SLabour BBC. Its the status quo and they are not going to allow any changes.

      There’s so much money and status in the BBC for right wing liggers, managers and talent, its probably the biggest and most politicised state broadcaster the world’s ever seen before.

      In effect, BBC Scotland is the de facto opposition to SNP and if you don’t like that, you’re attacking freedom of speech. Which is probably why SNP Holyrood seems to go along with the shyste. Also they are very rarely seen on the BBC anyway and we all know how they get treated too. The upside is simply that BBC vote SLab Scotland is glossy expensive shite with very hard core tory propaganda and people watch other stuff.

      Its still breathtaking listening to BBC 24 news all day though, an endless stream of rule Britannia, Royalty, Cameron and Osborne are gods propaganda, with some weather forecasts, mentioning their Scotland region. Gavin Esler in particular is quite creepy but very very UKOK wealthy no doubt.

    364. Rob James says:

      On the subject of Julie McNulty and the racist allegations, I expected to see every unionist rag with headlines splashed across their front pages and free double spread pull outs. and yet not a peep.

      Don’t tell me that the DR is making it all up. They wouldn’t, would they?

    365. Bob Mack says:

      I have a very good friend who is Indian and we have known each other a very long time. We worked and socialised together. We loved watching a programme called “Alias Smith and Jones”, and from that he would call me” Hannibal”, because I loved Roman History ,whilst I called him Kid Curry. We used this greeting for many years without offence.

      He would have done anything for me,and I for him.

    366. Nana says:

      Re fiscal framework. Thank goodness we have John Swinney & Nicola on our side.

      Read the highlighted part

    367. Andrew McLean says:

      If we go back, Section 5 of the Public Order Act, using language that may offend, is an offence. So amongst friends you can have banter, you have no intent, you may have no intent when you call your local shopkeeper a pejorative term, but you are dicing with an unknown, the offence is in his feelings not yours. is that really so difficult, mind you we live in a country where sectarianism is endemic in some quarters.

    368. Fred says:

      Nana, you’re wasting your time raising the subject of nuclear accidents, they’d rather talk a lot of shite about racism.

    369. Valerie says:

      Here’s a good excerpt from the link I posted above. Wonder what the language might be, that they refer to, in the case of a drunk not being served?

      It’s shameful, and referred to as ‘typical’. As we know, plenty of abuse can be meted out, without referring to ethnic origin. Anyone thinking this is all over reaction needs to remember its rife in football, and after the Paris attacks, there were sadly, an increase in racial attacks in Scotland, as well as other parts.


      Generally, however, proof of racial aggravation is derived from the course of conduct or action since this is usually easier to prove. The use of certain language is particularly likely to be used as evidence of malice or ill-will, thus meeting the requirement of racial aggravation. Such language may be in common use among certain groups. A typical situation where this has arisen is racially aggravated behaviour in an off-licence where a refusal to sell alcohol to a drunk person is met with an abusive response which includes pejorative terms describing the victim.

      A minority of the Sheriffs, RPFs and police officers we interviewed felt that it is inappropriate to use the racially aggravated offences in such situations. They were concerned that this overplays a trivial matter (what one Sheriff described as ‘an invective add-on’), labels people as racist when they had no intention of being so and could lead to a backlash against the victims of racist crimes. The term ‘black bastard’, which is often used against police officers regardless of their ethnicity, was regarded as problematic by some Sheriffs. However, it is Crown Office 40 policy to prosecute such cases where the victim is a minority ethnic police officer.

    370. Bob Mack says:


      Shite— racism—–really?

      Then again maybe it is not relevant to you.

    371. bugsbunny says:

      Bob Mack,

      Again apologies for me being an over sensitive twat. I see your quoting the late great Kenneth Williams in his role as Julius Caesar in Carry On Cleo. The Carry On Films, especially after the Theatre Act of 1968, which also covered cinemas, where strict censorship and iron hand of the Lord Chamberlain was finally removed, changed the way things were seen and heard on and off the stage and screen. So the first film, Carry on Sergeant 1958, all the way through to 1968, (including Carry on Cleo 1964) were tame with what followed. Even in 1964 they got away with innuendo that might not get seen today for entirely different reasons. Kenneth Connor as the Celtic British Slave Hengist Pod was heard to say, when trying to use primitive tongs to straighten Julius Caesar’s hair, (played by Kenneth Williams), when Caesar scolded him for burning his fringe, “I’m sorry, I’m not used to tongs, but I know what to do with an IRON”. Iron Hoof = ? Well you can figure out the rest, what they were alluding to, about Kenneth Williams, (A lifelong celibate), about his supposed sexual orientation.

      Charles Hawtrey, who was not backward in being forward about his sexual leanings, in many films was always saying, “Oh, I do feel queer”. Whereas I doubt they would get away with making such a remark nowadays about the black bodyguard, in Carry on Cleo, Sosages, that he looks a trifle overdone. But anyhow that was then and this is now.


      “Infamy, infamy they’ve all got it infamy”.

      “Cleo’s the Siren of the Nile”. “Oh, I hope she doesn’t go off”. #2Don’t worry, she’s got a deep “frieze” all around her”.

      “My Daddy, (Seneca), is a great sage”. “Yes, and I know my Onions”. “Yes, the British know what to do with Sage and Onions”.

      The old soothsayer, looking into a flame. “Isis, sweet Isis”. Hengas Pod responds, “They’re lovely”. An old street vendors shout to get people to buy their ice cream.


    372. Bob Mack says:


      Let’s see. Nuclear accident..We all die either immediately or lingering through radiation poisoning.. Gosh that was deep.Who knew?

    373. Valerie says:

      Just wow @Fred.

      Sometimes I’m so embarrassed reading what others post, knowing how widely read this site is.

    374. TD says:

      Andrew McLean

      No it’s not difficult. But is it right? Not in terms of current legislation, but in the sense of is it the way we want it to be?

      My objection to the position you stated (I think accurately in terms of the legislation) is that whether or not I commit an offence seems to be down to how someone else reacts to what I say. That just doesn’t seem right to me.

      I should stress that I try not to offend anyone so I would not use the P word because I know it does offend. But to criminalise someone on the basis of how another person reacts?

      If we extended this to other areas beyond race, we could presumably ban religions just by saying we are offended by the pronouncements of that religion. We could ban political points of view because they offended us. Maybe that’s one the yoons (sorry is that offensive?) might try.

    375. yesindyref2 says:

      Thanks for the BBC one, and well done Philip Sim.

      I think it’s important we differentiate between BBC Scotland and the people who work there, who don’t and can’t control its output. My feeling is that a lot of them are hacked off.

      Extra budget and control for BBC Scotland would be a good step, but the only real solution is that it be federated.

      Incidentally, I’m back to reserving judgement on the Herald. I see Sturgeon has made 1 or is it 2 corrections in tweets, so I’m guessing she thinks it’s worth doing.

      One last thing, the Unionist activists are banging on about deficits and differences between Scotland and the UK, and so much subsidy per head.

      It’s a distraction, the “no detriment” actually has nothing to do with that at all, it’s preserving Barnett adjusted to a minor amount of extra devolution, to Barnett as it is now. It means the Scotland Bill 2015 either has to genuinely cause “no detriment”, or it gets rejected by Holyrood. They’re also using it for Coucil tax cuts and even the 1p in the £ proposed by Labour. It’s a red herring, deliberately used to make us uncomfortable and distract us from the real “debate”.

      A point about that is that the 59 Scottish MPs could sign up to Sturgeon being shipped off to the mooon to paint a huge saltire on it, but they have no authority in Holyrood, which only signed up to Smith, not the Scotland Act.

    376. ian says:

      Macbeda interesting point.France has a similar population a similar tax take and a similar deficit but the one big difference is they never had a trillion worth of oïl to squander.Its quite clear where it has gone as the rich are now three times richer than they were under Thatcher and the poor are as realitively poor now as then.

    377. Andrew McLean says:

      you mean this shite that the unionist press will run with to discredit the SNP,
      the unionist.

      more votes lost, FFS its war, why cant you see that,
      want a clue, Nationalist site WOS says that racist language is unimportant” could seen anytime soon!

      That’s why the executive have suspended the meetings till after the election.

      Loose Lips Sink Ships!

    378. yesindyref2 says:

      Excellent. “asking what flexibility can be offered in the timetable for parliamentary scrutiny to enable negotiations to continue beyond 12th February”

      I (cough) predicted that about 2 or 3 weeks ago. Brinkpersonship at its best 🙂

      Same as the Council adjusted deadline for acceptance.

    379. orri says:

      Perhaps another take on the idea of no detriment is that any powers Holyrood gains should not by themselves alter the balance between Scotland and the rUK. The use of the powers might make things worse or better however. More importantly this isn’t about keeping a promise to those who voted Yes, it’s about one to those who voted No.

    380. liz g says:

      Back on topic if you haven’t watched the whole meeting with Forsyth the Rev linked to I can definitely recommend it.
      They come across as floundering about how to save their damaged Union
      A good insight into their mindset.
      But the real gem is the outrage that Nicola Sturgeon is behaving as if she were a prim minister of a country, with the cheek to comment on defence and foreign affairs.

    381. Andrew McLean says:

      spin it round on sexuality, if it wasn’t that way the age old excuse would be “but I was only kidding, no offence love!” “no harm meant, god you girls are sensitive!”
      and we have years of sexist comments disguised as good humour, of arse slapping, nuge nuge, “make the tea love there’s a good girl,”

      I believe the SNP stand for a better Scotland, where inclusion and civil liberty is at the forefront and yes Fred that means No Nukes, but the bedrock of no nukes is respect fro your fellow man! If we cant strive for that, then we are the Labour party.

      God what a thought!

    382. Lollysmum says:

      Thanks Nana both your nuclear & NS letter to Cameron links now winging their way around the twittersphere.

      The letter to Cameron makes for interesting reading. Yay-truly standing up for Scotland

    383. Bob Mack says:

      @Andrew Mc Lean.

      Nicely put Andrew.

    384. bugsbunny says:

      Andrew McLean,

      For many years, a while now, this was the mindset of the Labour Councillor for Cumnock Doon Valley in Strathclyde Regional Council, (albeit with an Ayrshire Accent) similar with what you were talking about, a typical old misogynist, allegedly.


    385. CameronB Brodie says:

      Historical perspective on these issues is important as well. The UK in my lifetime had colonies all over the world,and treated them all as servile.

      John Stuart Mill, the grandfather of utilitarianism, felt those living in a state of under-development, should not be afforded the privelage of democratic rights. IMHO, utilitarianism sanitised racism and colonial exploitation, in order to make the ‘English way’ palitable to Anglican sensabilities. England has aways been a ‘slave economy’, as with Scotland since 1707.

      Breastplate @1:32pm
      You’re a very naughtyboy. 😉

    386. Nana says:


      Thanks for tweeting them Lollysmum, here’s a couple more

      Navy’s next generation of nuclear subs get funding boost

      Email I got earlier today, someone else might want to contribute.

    387. cirsium says:

      Nana, thanks for the link to the FM’s letter (3.40pm).

      My reaction on reading it was “GOTCHA”.

    388. Nana says:


      I agree there must surely be some at the beeb tearing their hair out. Glad I spotted the Sim tweet, made me go looking for where the quote came from.
      Sometimes things move so fast, it’s hard to keep up!

    389. galamcennalath says:

      @Nana Thanks for the link to Nicola Sturgeon’s statement. You tell them Nicola!

      She says …

      “… it has become increasingly clear that what the Treasury seems to want to achieve is an outcome that would systematically reduce the Scottish budget … ”

      … which of course is exactly what the Tories want. Nae surprises! Also, a very good point …

      “As we approach an EU referendum, people anywhere in the UK have a right to know that what the UK government says in a referendum campaign can be trusted and will be delivered.”

      I guess Cameron didn’t see that one coming! In the EU ref, people are entitled to say that WM cannot be trusted to deliver on referendum campaign promises. Smith nor Scotland Bill is nothing like the promises of DevoSuperHomeMaxRule!

    390. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes it’s moving fast, but to plan I think.

      OT and I’ll shut up.

      Polariod at Vale of Leven shutting with loss of 107 jobs. Once it had 5,000. British Leyland, Ferranti, Honeywell, Timex, Rolls Royce, Halliburton, Satchwell Sunvic, Scott Lithgow, NatSemi, Compaq, Ravenscraig, Kincaid, Vritish Steel, Ciba-Geigy so many more lost or reduced.

      The UK concentrates on banks, the financial sector and service industries and meanwhile we’re surrounded by manufactured items from countries where it’s not just cheaper labour, it’s state of the art production lines and warehousing.

      It’s shit.

    391. You couldn’t make this up coming form Labour.

      Fife Council leader compares John Swinney to Chicago gangster as he announces council tax freeze will continue

    392. Les Wilson says:

      Maybe those in Fife who are Unionists and voted NO,
      Should read this.

    393. call me dave says:

      Sturgeon & Swinney: In the Herald:
      Simmering on beyond the elections maybe!
      But she added: “I’m not prepared to compromise on the key principle of ‘no detriment. I’m not prepared to see Scotland short-changed”.

      She said the SNP would set out how it would use the new powers, including almost complete control over income tax, in its election manifesto, irrespective of whether a deal can be approved before the May vote.

      She also suggested the talks should continue over the summer, if no deal is struck, rather than scrap the Scotland Bill altogether.

    394. call me dave says:

      @Peter McCulloch Thanks for that.

      ‘Chicago gangster’ left us no alternative, says Fife Council leader David Ross.

      Wee bit of history:

      ‘Such was the upsurge in mining activity that the population of Cowdenbeath doubled (4,000–8,000) in the ten years between 1890 and 1900 and gave rise to the nickname “Chicago of Fife”.’

    395. bugsbunny says:

      Peter McCulloch@5.05pm,

      Maybe they think we will do a Valentine Day’s massacre on them this Sunday?

      That’s nonsense of course. We will wait until Thursday 4th May 2017 before we pull that off.


    396. Another Union Dividend says:

      BBC Radio Scotland at circa 5.20 pm failed to mention that Prof Richard Kerley is a former Labour Councillor and normally displays Labour window posters at election times.

      Worth noting when he next has a go at Scottish government / SNP over Council funding.

    397. yesindyref2 says:

      @call me dave
      I remember reading many years ago that people from Fife used to walk up the hills looking for the coal ships, and when they saw them knew there would be work for them. Can’t find anything about it, (like which hills and from where!) but there’s this for interest:

    398. TD says:

      Andrew McLean at 3:56 pm

      I take your point about sexuality, but I think you prove my point. All of the behaviours you describe, with the exception of “arse slapping” are offensive but there is, as far as I am aware, no legal sanction against them. Arse slapping of course constitutes sexual assault and illustrates the point well – it is a physical act and not just words. Anyone doing this should know that they are liable to prosecution.

      All of the other examples you give are unpleasant, unacceptable behaviour, but they are not criminal acts. No doubt when people behave this way, offence is taken. But no criminal act has occurred.

      I believe the SNP stand for a better Scotland, where inclusion and civil liberty is at the forefront…

      I could not agree more. But respect for your fellow man includes not making arbitrary decisions about what constitutes an offence (Kurd, Afghan, P****) and not criminalising people for interpretations by other people of what has been said.

    399. frogesque says:

      Peter McCulloch says:
      9 February, 2016 at 5:05 pm
      You couldn’t make this up coming form Labour.

      Fife Council leader compares John Swinney to Chicago gangster as he announces council tax freeze will continue

      Would this be the very same Fife Council leader who presided over a regime that systematically failed to to pay equal wages for equal work?

      The same Council that now has a financial black hole after the women concerned won their case?

      The same Council that then put it about that the women were forcing the Council to make cuts to services because of the ruling?

      They may have moved to fancy offices at Glenrothes but the old Kirkcaldy Kremlin is still alive and kicking. ‘Till next year anyway.

      SNP/SNP then onwards to clean out the Council dross

    400. bugsbunny says:

      Congratulations to Andy Murray on becoming a Daddy.


    401. Bob Mack says:

      Like the sound of Davidson hissing a la Jimmy Cagney to Swinney

      “You dirty rat” ..Ah the WHITE HEAT of politics. More intrigue than 13 RUE MADELAINE. Never mind Ruth,you can tell John to LOVE ME OR LEAVE ME.

      Mr Swinney would appear to be ENEMY NO 1.

      You couldn’t write the script.

    402. galamcennalath says:

      call me dave says:

      “Sturgeon & Swinney: In the Herald:”

      That article doesn’t quite seem to match the official statement. The Herald claims, as you say, ‘manifesto’ and ‘summer’, but where is Sturgeon supposed to have said this? Neither word appears in the statement.

      The Herald’s claims are not in quotes, and they include nothing in quotes which relates to these things at all.

      I am very tempted to say the Herald is just making most of that up and putting words in the First Minister’s mouth! Unless they can actually quote her saying so, I think it’s bollocks.

      Sounds like bollocks because she explicitly says it is up to Parliament, not Government to extend the period where negotiations can continue.

    403. Glesca Keelie says:

      Remember, guys.

      For those interested.
      Fracking documentary (America) tonight @ 21.00 hrs on PBS, Freesat 160.

      Don’t know what Sky or Virgin might be.

    404. macnakamura says:

      STV News
      “Scot nominated for Nobel Peace Prize. Later we will look at the award’s checkered history.”
      Hardly the sense of pride that should accompany such an achievement.

      Why such a less than enthusiastic view?

      Perhaps because the nominee is SNP MSP.

    405. Valerie says:


      Of course remarks made specifically to a person, containing sexualized content can be interpreted as sexual harassment or discrimination. There is law about it, or are you not familiar with that? You don’t have to slap someone’s arse, to be out with the law.

      You haven’t done any basic reading of the posts on this subject.

      The victim decides racial slur, otherwise YOU can say whatever you like, and call it your opinion/ turn of phrase.

      Yes, it is where a modern Scotland wants to be, and guess what, a lot of us in management have spent the last 15 years at least promoting and living it.

      You can be as racist or sexist as you like in your head, or with friends, but in public and the workplace, you better know the law.

      Unintended hurt is still hurt, and can be reported, taken through disciplinary and or reported to Police.

    406. Undeadshaun says:

      Off topic
      But have you seen that the Scottish Government is running a recruitment campaign for UK junior doctors.

      Hopefully, this should counter any staffing stories that the unionist media have spun lately.

    407. call me dave says:


      Your probably right about the Herald.

      I checked the BBC site for their slant on it a minute ago ( they always tell the truth 🙂 )and sure enough it’s been updated with the two Ruthie’s statements from earlier watered down considerably. ‘Negotiations at a delicate stage!’ she says now.

      CMD in WM acknowledges receipt of the epistle so that’s good.

      Wonder if Mr Hand will be /or is on a train back to the big smoke
      for an interpretation.


      Well I’ve been up Hill of Beath hill dozens of time, between 1950 and 1970 and you get a good view of the Forth from there.

      Thanks for the links. Reading the diary and checking the references to the bible too. Interesting.

    408. Robert Louis says:

      Ok, from my perspective, negotiating with Westminster over ‘smith ultralite’ aka The ‘Scotland’ bill is pointless. It is clear they wish to use it as a massive fiscal trap for Scotland.

      However, given the Scottish Government are currently proceeding with it, then it is worth noting what the First Minister has said in here letter today. The full link is at the end.

      Key parts of the letters from my perspective were;

      “…These are the key points of what I believe the Smith Commission intended in its articulation of ‘no detriment’. The proposals that have been put forward by your government thus far do not meet this ‘no detriment’ principle – on the contrary, they would result in a systematic reduction in the Scottish budget, amounting to billions of pounds over a ten year period. This is not what the Smith Commission recommended and it was not what was promised to the Scottish people in the pre-referendum ‘Vow’.”

      “..Given this, it seems to me essential that we now have your assurance that the UK Government is working to the same understanding of these key recommendations. Only in this way will it be possible to achieve an agreement.”

      “..I must make clear that the approach taken by the Treasury so far – which seems to focus, not on delivering ‘no detriment’ but instead on seeking agreement on the amount of detriment that Scotland should bear – is simply not acceptable to the Scottish Government.”

      My bolding.

      I would strongly urge ALL here who have an interest, to read the full letter, as it makes it very clear how Westminster has been behaving so far, and it sets out very, very clearly, the FM will not accept any deal which will be detrimental to Scotland and in breach of the Smith ‘no-detriment’ principle.

      It will be most interesting IF Cameron even bothers replying, and if he will offer the commitment the FM seeks (I’ll not hold my breath).


      Scroll down the link page for the full open letter text.

    409. Andrew Mclean says:

      The behaviour I describe with respect to gender is indeed unlawful. If I were to discriminate on the grounds of gender I would be breaking the law. The example I gave was workplace, the assault would be aggravated if it was also accompanied with a remak against a protected characteristic. This is covered by the equality act 2010 and the act I mentioned above section 5.

      Slightly of topic but my addled brain has just remembered a case where a Twitter user was found guilty of an offence under the telecommunications act, 2003? Section 127? For calling someone a c$@$ I need to look into it, re Spanner. 45 days in clink I think?

      A confectionery bar of your choice to the first to find the case!

    410. frogesque says:


      Of particular interest:

      In the 16th century coal started to be worked from the surface near to where Broomieside Farm is now. Originally taken to Inverkeithing for shipping it was, by early 18th century, being loaded onto flat bottomed boats in Dalgety Bay, near St. Bridget’s Kirk. St. David’s harbour was built in 1752 by Sir Robert Henderson to take 500/600 ton vessels. In later centuries, as they worked the coal inland, the seams became deeper and pits were sunk. Fordell coal was advertised as being suitable for steamships and was much exported. After the closure of the railway, the harbour became a scrap metal yard until the land was sold in the 1980’s. It is now the site of an extensive housing development and marina.

      The plight of some people in the Parish, especially the coal miners, was particularly desperate. Excluded by the Habeas Corpus Act of 1701, denying them basic human rights, they were virtually the slaves of the mine owners. When Sir John Henderson of Fordell told them, that by the Act of 1790, they were no longer bound in servitude to him but were free men, the news was greeted with loud cheers and celebration took place in the form of a Gala Day.

      Fordell Wagon The railway which transported coal from the pit head to St. David’s was one of the first railways in Scotland. The rails were made from beech and fir wood, and the trucks were drawn by horses. Besides being used for home consumption, the coal was exported from St. David’s to the Baltic in small trading vessels. The length of track was four to five miles. The wood was soon replaced by iron rails, and ponies by steam engines. Transportation of the coal to St. David’s harbour was carried out by horse drawn wagons running on wooden rails (c. 1770), later converted to malleable iron rails (c. 1833) and latterly (c. 1868) by steam trains on steel rails. The railway was closed in 1946. One of the original wagons lay derelict for some years at St David’s, but disappeared with the start of new house building. However, a restored wagon was located in England and the National Museum of Scotland has been negotiating for its return.

      I have read before about Scottish miners being slaves in all but name. There are also some fair vantage points in that area that afford views of the Forth

    411. Balaaargh says:

      Fife Council leader compares John Swinney to Chicago gangster as he announces council tax freeze will continue

      As already mentioned by Peter McCulloch (but I couldn’t post from work). The words “pot” and “kettle” spring to mind when I hear the words “Fife Council” and “gangster.”

      Lovely piece of journalism from the Courier. It’s well balanced , not sensationalised and reminds us what the Finance Minister looks like in a happy, cheery setting. Obviously, I’m being sarcastic for the yoons out there.

      I did a reverse image search for the photo in question. Interestingly, the only other results I got came from the Express, the Scotsman and some clickbait “news” site – which just redirects every article back to the Express.

    412. Balaaargh says:

      Also, didn’t Michael Forsyth used to have hair?

    413. frogesque says:

      Aberdeen City being swindled

      While Manchester get £2,130 per head in their City Deal, Aberdonians get £550.

      Just feel the lurv and those Better Together broad shoulders

    414. bugsbunny says:


      As far as I remember, both the salt miners and coal miners were made into serfs by an Act of the Scottish Parliament of 1606. Up unto 1768, a small silver coin was put into the palm of the hand of an infant by the mine owner at their christening, signifying that their life and freedom belonged to them. All those born after that, were “technically” free. All those born before that were freed in 1795. The Truck Act of 1831 removed a final barrier. That of being paid in tokens to be redeemed at the local works store and pub, instead of wages.


    415. Albaman says:

      frogesque @7:06.
      I have walked that old line as much as possible from Fordell down to Dalgety Bay area, (as a youngster I’d cycle down inti St David’s to see which boats were being broken up, as I did when cycling into Chareston harbour, which also broke up boats) anyway, as you walk down from Fordell, the old rail line is actually just within some fields, and you can STILL see small pieces of coal laying on the ground, I believe that there is a book about that era, ” Behind the Diamond Panes” if memory serves me correctly .

    416. Albaman says:

      Further to my last posting regarding the Fordell to Dalgety Bay railway,
      I believe that there was also a runaway steam engine incident .

    417. heedtracker says:

      Also, didn’t Michael Forsyth used to have hair?

      Also, didn’t Project Fear rage, vote YES and pay higher taxes, without the safety, security, pooling and sharing, ah fcuk it. Ofcourse they did.

      But that was then and this just another SLab/BBC/UKOK race for Holyrood.

    418. Valerie says:

      Just read the FMs letter to Cameron, in the link posted above by Robert Louis.

      Nicola doesn’t miss and hit the wall with that letter.

      Reading it also makes it clear, that Swinney, when inside the Myth commission, ensured ‘no detriment’ was in there.

      I’m pretty sure the SG knew there would be nothing, except pain, on offer.

      They are now stating that clearly. They are being clear an impasse has been reached, with constant haggling at the table, and the gauntlet is being thrown down, to nail the no detriment agreement.

    419. Iain More says:

      Off topic but still about Tax,

      Well I got stopped by a Britannia TV Aberdeen crew in Elgin today. I left them in no doubt about what I thought of the present Brit Nat rulers of Moray Council. I politely accused the Council of cronyism, nepotism and corruption adding that if it had been a Scot Nat run council then they would have been all over that Council like flies on a deid fish.

      I had to restrain my mither from using her walking stick on the Britannia TV Aberdeen Brit Nat stooges. She had her hackles up!

      Not surprisingly the contents of that interview didn’t make its Brit Nat propaganda output this evening. I think they caught an earful from a lot of folk who think they are paying quite enough Council Tax already. I did draw the less than knowledgeable interviewer to the Audit Scotland report that said Scottish Councils had actually been overfunded in relation to the Council Tax Freeze and to stop treating us as uninformed idiots, they weren’t amused. I also highlighted the Council spending no less than £16 million on so called Consultants Fees for Elgin’s Flood Prevention Scheme alone and that was just one Scheme in an area that has seen several Flood Prevention Schemes so Lord knows what the Consultants have pocketed in fees in total.

    420. TD says:

      Andrew / Valerie

      Andrew said:

      “Spin it round on sexuality, if it wasn’t that way the age old excuse would be “but I was only kidding, no offence love!” “no harm meant, god you girls are sensitive!”
      and we have years of sexist comments disguised as good humour, of arse slapping, nuge nuge, “make the tea love there’s a good girl,””

      Apart from “arse slapping” about which we appear to be agreed, can you tell me what offence would be committed by carrying out these behaviours? They are examples of offensive unacceptable behaviour, but I do not believe that of themselves, these behaviours constitute an offence under the criminal law. Of course if you were to paint a broader picture of sexual harassment or perhaps discrimination, (although I think that would be a civil matter and not criminal) then I agree these behaviours could be part of a criminal offence. But as stated by Andrew in the first instance they are not – please correct me if you can quote the relevant legislation.

      Andrew, you went on to say in your next post that you had been referring to the workplace. As a matter of fact you did not refer to the workplace in the original quote above.

      Also you say “If I were to discriminate on the grounds of gender I would be breaking the law”. That is true but you would be breaking the civil law and would be liable to a civil suit. You would not be committing a criminal act. Again, if you think I am wrong please quote the Act and the section or the relevant case law.

      Valerie, you say “The victim decides racial slur, otherwise YOU can say whatever you like, and call it your opinion/ turn of phrase.”

      So if I decide that being called Scotty (as I have been when working in England) am I / should I be entitled to decide that that is a “racial” slur? And should the people saying it then be prosecuted? Where will you draw the line?

      Both of you seem to be making the assumption that our society will be more free if we criminalise people who say unpleasant things. I accept that in extreme cases this might be true but where there is doubt I would err on the side of allowing, but not necessarily approving of, people saying what they think. I certainly do not think that criminalising people for using the P word, but not the Afghan or Kurd words, makes any sense. And criminal law has to make sense.

    421. One_Scot says:

      Having read the letter letter that Nicola Sturgeon has sent to David Cameron regarding agreeing a fiscal frame work that is not detrimental to Scotland, it is clear to me that not only has Scotland been robbed of the full (‘let’s call it Devo Max’ Jackie Bird announced on Reporting Scotland while having a cosy chat with Lord Darling just before the referendum) we were promised, it looks like the even the parish council powers of the Smith commission will not even be offered in full.

      It is fundamental that the The Scottish Government makes all of Scotland aware that we have been conned and taken for fools. If we do ever get the chance to put 18th of September right, we seriously cannot F’ck it up again.

      They will never give Scotland an inch, however they will lie to us and abuse our trust.

      The only real power we have is SNP x 2 in May, and we need to use it, because if we don’t, our children will be next.

    422. Thepnr says:


      Interesting discussions, seems that without focus we can go off on all kind of tangents. That’s what happens when there is no news.

      LOL, don’t you find that funny?

      I don’t, it’s purely normal and shows we are not sheep herded by the Rev Stu on Wings. Doesn’t do much much for harmony but worth seeing now and again having seen a lot worse I get we are maturing.

    423. One_Scot says:

      For anyone who missed the link for Nicolas letter,

    424. heedtracker says:

      Decent RT there

      Wings Over Scotland ?@WingsScotland 51m51 minutes ago
      “We were promised additional powers – not additional powers in exchange for a systematic reduction in our budget.”

      Vote NO, we love, we beg, its terrifying on your own in a dangerous world, now-

      Hike Scottish taxes, rage red tory BetterTogether, have a few powers but we’ll slash your budget bullshit the blue toryboys, for UKOK ever.

      EVEL, Brexit, Trident 2, austerity teamGB, lots of new wars, #SNPbad rage the yoon BBC led meeja.

      What a difference 18 months of voting NO for the UK makes.

    425. Petra says:

      @ Iain More says at 7:53 pm …”Well I got stopped by a Britannia TV Aberdeen crew in Elgin today. I left them in no doubt about what I thought of the present Brit Nat rulers of Moray Council. I politely accused the Council of cronyism, nepotism and corruption adding that if it had been a Scot Nat run council then they would have been all over that Council like flies on a deid fish. I had to restrain my mither from using her walking stick on the Britannia TV Aberdeen Brit Nat stooges. She had her hackles up! Not surprisingly the contents of that interview didn’t make its Brit Nat propaganda output this evening. I think they caught an earful from a lot of folk who think they are paying quite enough Council Tax already. I did draw the less than knowledgeable interviewer to the Audit Scotland report that said Scottish Councils had actually been overfunded in relation to the Council Tax Freeze and to stop treating us as uninformed idiots, they weren’t amused. I also highlighted the Council spending no less than £16 million on so called Consultants Fees for Elgin’s Flood Prevention Scheme alone and that was just one Scheme in an area that has seen several Flood Prevention Schemes so Lord knows what the Consultants have pocketed in fees in total.”

      Iain thanks for sharing your story. It gave me a right laugh I can tell you, especially the part about your mother preparing to ‘use’ her walkingstick. I can just hear you now and imagine the TV crew standing with their eyes popping and mouths hanging open in total disbelief as they seem to think that the Scots are a bunch of bl**dy nincompoops. You well and truly quashed that myth. Good for you (and mum!).

      PS I’ve got my ‘spiel’ well and truly ready. Just have to find a TV crew, lol.

    426. Petra says:

      Nana Nicola’s letter (no detriment) was mentioned on STV news tonight with her speech being cut short as per usual. The ‘no detriment’ clause was then described as no detriment to either side, Scotland and Westminster, as is we know. However no mention of the possibility of the Scots being done out of billions. Anyone with little knowledge of the subject would have been duped of course.

    427. Dr Jim says:

      If the Smith Commission is not delivered as set out in the FMs letter to Cameron does that not constitute a “Fundamental Change of Circumstances” as the FM put it when asked about any future Referendum

      We know they don’t want to devolve anything and never did and the FMs called them on their stalling for time tactics

      I notice Kim Jong Davidson bumbling up and down to No10 giving press snippets out that a deal’s there to be done, eh,
      How does she know what is or isn’t on the cards if even Mundell hasn’t got a clue, we know he’s just mouthpiece material

      I get the feeling if the Tories renege on this deal it’s going to turn out to be bigger than we thought
      SNPx2 Give them something to think about

    428. call me dave says:

      Nicola Sturgeon vows … 🙂

      Ian Murray with his nose pressed up against the window looking on but with nothing mush to contribute. Kezia silent!

      Ruthie certainly getting puffed up by the papers and the BBC today.

      Candidate for the PM’s job now. Aye right!

    429. Andrew Mclean says:

      We originally discussed when the offences took place, have you accepted that intention is irrelevant?
      I believe I said unlawful, I didn’t define which part, civil or criminal. I don’t think we discussed individual examples? For instance race is mostly criminal, sexist is mostly civil, however it depends on the circumstances. For example if a called out sexual harassment to a woman walking in the street it would be criminal, in the workplace it would be civil, but if a complaint was made it could be criminal.

    430. macbeda says:

      Quote from FM letter

      “This suggestion is based on my assumption that you are committed to achieving an outcome consistent with Lord Smith’s articulation of ‘no detriment’. If that is not the case, I think it is vital that you make that clear.”

      Nicola get it right in one

    431. CameronB Brodie says:

      Have the No voters been paying attention though? Some will have been, no doubt, though I’m less than confident a significant proportion of them will be doing so. Firstly, folk don’t really like to question decisions they have already made. Second, our esteemed UKOK meeja, both corporate and state, are not exactly highlighting the down-side to Scotland. Thirdly, SNPBaaaadd.

      For example, I spoke to a bloke today who I knew voted No and asked him if he had reconsidered his vote. No, came the relay. Unperturbed, I asked him for his views on the developments over the last 18 month, to which he was completely oblivious. I could have popped a blood vessel but instead asked him if he thought it might not be a good idea to pay attention to how he is gouverned. His reply was a look of stunned glaikitness.

      Perhaps head-on confrontation and shame is not the best approach. 🙂

    432. FairFerfochen says:

      Did everyone see the Pillbury Davidson-boy tossing pancakes on the news this evening? Jeez…

    433. Thepnr says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      I don’t just feel but share your pain.

      Move on, there are easier targets open to persuasion.

    434. woosie says:

      Dr Jim – ” Kim Jong Davidson – LOL! Bang on, she’s his doppleguiser!

      C4 News tonight, just caught the tail end on an interview with Nigel Farage calling for an end to postal voting. A bit late Nige, but at the risk of repeating myself a postal vote is a no vote.

    435. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m gonna get this one if it’s the last thing I do. 🙂

    436. galamcennalath says:

      There was talk at the GE of holding feet to the fire. Well, I think Sturgeon has just turned the heat up a couple of notches!

    437. Nana says:


      I don’t watch tv news,[ fear of bursting a blood vessel]
      No surprise stv deliberately getting it wrong.

      Tomorrow’s National front page

    438. One_Scot says:

      When the yoons told the people of Scotland vote ‘No’ and we will give you Devo Max, not sure many people realised that that actually meant, vote ‘No’ and we’ll make Scotland 3 Billion pounds worse off.

      Well I suppose to be fair, when they said we are ‘Better Together’, they were actually right from their point of view.

      You never know, one day we might wake up and say, ‘wait a minute, I’m beginning to think these yoons are taking the piss out of us’.

    439. Fireproofjim says:

      PBS has just started a programme on fracking. Looks interesting.

    440. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dr Jim
      The SNP knew exactly what they were doing the moment Smith was announced. Within 3 months of being elected in 2007, they’d published this. Interesting from page 8 onwards:

      They offered Devo-max as the “third” question for any takers, and have of course been totally genuine during Smith, the Scotland Bill and the fiscal frameworkss. They have to be, they have to be seem to having been doing eerything they can to implement the watered down Scotland Bill, which was watered down from Smith, which was watered down from the Vow and all the rhetoric.

      McWhirter’s right, there is a trap set for the SNP, but they’re sitting on the side of it, watching the Westminster Government going “wheeeeee” as they jump in.

      Won’t be long now.

    441. heedtracker says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      9 February, 2016 at 9:34 pm

      He’s in the minority. A lot of people dont care about anything like this at all. Its the way we’re educated and its how BBC style tory propaganda inculcates us into politics. It works well in England, the great land of the I’m all right tory boy jack. The consensus there is blue toryboys good for the economy, red tory good for public services. Again its all down to BBC tory bullshitters. National debt and deficit at all time high, Osborne’s good at economics? Its a UKOK farce.

      Ruth Davidson’s hour long party political broadcast this lunchtime on BBC Daily Politics was an astonishing display of BBC corruption but it clearly works in England. Not once was Ruth asked anything remotely challenging by the Ligger’s smirking side kick.

      Project Fear and the Vow fraud pushed that 5% over to NO. Now its rolling BBC led Project Fear/Scotland’s a shit hole/ doesn’t exist/#SNPbad but they can’t give away UKOK rags like the Hootsman.

      SO buck up!

    442. Don McLeay says:

      Instead of give them glass beads and bangles, mickey boy gave us the stone as he thought it would keep the lid on.

      Long may mickey boy stay in the public eye as he reminds Scots how alien the tories are, and remember who sided with the tories during the referendum keza?

    443. Ananurhing says:


      That was from the Politics Show today with Jo Coburn. (repeated at 12am) Ruthie touted as the photo op queen and the saviour of Scottish Tory fortunes.

      Stomach churning obsequious pap. No mention of Scottish Tory’s worst result in history last May under Ruthies leadership. Or that Ruthie only got 1845 votes in 2011.

      Contrast this with the open spiteful hostility Tommy Shepard was subjected to a while ago by the same wizened shrew Coburn.

    444. frogesque says:

      Finally, a word to sleep on.


      Night all!

    445. galamcennalath says:

      heedtracker says:

      “Project Fear and the Vow fraud pushed that 5% over to NO”

      The Vow and promises alone pushed 5% from Yes to No.

      The vow was made in a panic because Cameron was told around the 5th Sept 2014 that it was likely to be 55% Yes. Large scale private polling put the fear of Union death into them. 8th Sept all the promises started rolling out.

      As for Project Fear … when you look at analysis of why people voted No it is full of fearmongering – pensions, NHS, national security, savings, jobs etc etc. All sorts of bullshit where we would have been better off with Indy, not the Union.

      They have a lot to answer for, and answer they will.

    446. heedtracker says:

      Anyone else watching Vote NO Barosso on BBC Newsnight right now. BetterTogether Barosso treated like an EU god by Newsnight and the great man says countries sovereignty must be respected.

      European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso has said it would be “extremely difficult, if not impossible” for an independent Scotland to join the European Union.
      Speaking to the BBC’s Andrew Marr he said an independent Scotland would have to apply for membership and get the approval of all current member states.”

      So much for the git’s respect in their Scotland region.

      BBC loved him for that UKOK bombshell and they love him still. Who’s editor of newsnight? Ian Katz, ex rancid The Graun head of UKOK propaganda. Funny that.

    447. Thepnr says:


      I personally think it’s about time the STUC acted like an Independent entity and openly supported the Scottish government in their discussions with the treasury re Smith.

      They may be getting there but too slowly in my opinion. Rise up STUC and make a difference. You are close and know it’s right.

    448. FairFerfochen says:

      Chin up folks


      They repeated a wee clip on the suppertime news, had to do a double-take, wished I hadn’t now. Tossin pancakes in front of a tank at teatime shocker!

    449. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Okay, so Carmichael’s humiliation closes one chapter of ‘Frenchgate’, but will the Scottish MSM dare tackle this one?




    450. scotspine says:

      Barosso talks utter shite.

      And he is a has been.

    451. galamcennalath says:

      If WM are trying to screw us with DevoSmithLite can you imagine what they would try with FFA?

      We would have no block grant and they would expect us to contribute to the debt they built up despite our oil money. Also, we would be expected to pay a population share of wars, defence and WMDs. And, heaven knows what they would deem to be of benefit to the whole UK and try to add to our bill.

      FFA would bring levers to control the economy, but WM would still want to cream off money.

      Indy, on the other hand, would be like FFA but without the massive residual payments to WM!

      Still, we are safe on the FFA front I reckon because WM won’t ever go there.

    452. Thepnr says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      If even Severin Carrell gets it, I think that tells you all you need to know about Mundell and his involvement.

    453. Rock says:

      Craig Murray,

      “I have had no contact with him since some time before the referendum.”

      He was a close personal friend of yours during and after the independence campaign according to your own blog.

      You seem to be backtracking on your long term close personal friendship with this disgraced liar.

    454. CameronB Brodie says:

      Wow. 🙂

      @ David Mundell
      What leak? It was all a fabrication, was it not?

    455. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Thepnr –


      Now we’re all looking forward to seeing Carrell and his buddies lobbing-in to alleviate Carmichael’s woes…

      I don’t ‘do’ Twitter, apart from watching the WOS feed, but I’m sure it’s chockablcok with BTUKOKers pledging massive financial support for Fozzy.

      Who knows? In time, the same stalwarts may have to dig deep for the current ‘Secretary of State for Scotland’.

    456. Dr Jim says:

      I saw the dog food man on 2016 desperate to get as many SNP Baad comments in as possible in the short space of time allowed
      Andrew Tickell is a smart intelligent man but if you’re reading this Andrew, when you speak don’t turn to others it makes you seem as though you’re looking for approval and you certainly don’t want to look as though you need it from the dog food man who doesn’t know anything

    457. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Ooooh! The nostalgia…

      Here’s Carmichael in happier days, when he was still SOS for Scotland, bantering with an on-message crew.

      NB, AT 4.30 –

      “Could I ask you to do The Walk of Shame?”

      ‘Yeah, okay.”

      Carmichael is down with the meeja types and knows exactly what’s being asked of him.

    458. Teresa says:

      @ Craig Murray

      Respect Craig. Love your blog and you are a vitally needed and honest voice Thank you.

    459. Almannysbunnet says:

      The rich South gets a cushion and the poor North gets nout. So much for the Northern powerhouse. If they are this blatant with their “ain folk” then they are capable of anything. All you labour MP enablers, hold your heads in shame.

    460. Tam Jardine says:

      “No detriment”- the phrase that is the focus of the fiscal framework discussions. It is with some amusement that I cast my mind back on those last ditch promises before the indyref.

      We were promised the moon on a stick and now, just maybe, if the SNP play hardball and threaten to walk away from the fiscal framework discussions and trigger a constitutional crisis we just might be granted ‘no detriment’ rather than billions of cuts based on slow population growth.

      Forgive me if I don’t put up the UJ bunting and break into god save the queen.

      Enjoyed Nicola Sturgeon’s letter. The Scottish Government have played a blinder and (from what I can gather) seem to be in a position where a positive outcome will come either from securing a favourable deal or having the westminster government renege.

    461. Still Positive. says:

      Was at our SNP branch meeting tonight where one of the SNP MEPs, Alyn Smith, gave us a talk on TTIP, Refugee crisis, Banks about to fail again (particularly Portugal and Italy and the Greek crisis) and the alternative to EU – EFTA. The Norwegians, in particular, say it is a rubbish deal as they pay “a fortune to trade and have no say.”

      He said the SNP is broadly in agreement of TTIP as trade is good. But there are ‘red lines’ they won’t cross – public services, such as the NHS, but the real biggy is water – as we are one of the few parts of the UK where water is still in public hands.

      He also said that the left-wing will reject it regardless and the right-wing will accept it regardless.

      It is up to us to lobby our MEPs to let them know our wishes.

      We also had the opportunity to sign up for email updates on up to 5/6 subjects.

      Keep you posted.

      PS indyref2 will read your link @10.22 properly tomorrow.

    462. Thepnr says:


      Seconded Re Craig Murray

      Ignore the doubters, they have their own agenda.

      Craig Murray was (still is) a friend of Carmichael doesn’t stop him criticising when he thinks it due.

      Carmichael is due that criticism and when from a friend or even former friend it must sting all the more.

    463. liz g says:

      Still Positive @ 12.18
      Was there any mention of the food standard issues?

    464. heedtracker says:

      Carmichael is due that criticism and when from a friend or even former friend it must sting all the more.

      Carbuncle will do just fine. If Westminster has taught Scotland any lesson at all this last few decades, its that the shameless will always succeed down there.

      From paedo cover ups, Westminster, BBC, church, mass expense fraud, illegal war, giant bungs to City banksters, Project Fear…its a UKOK world made for dudes like this chancer.

    465. Still Positive. says:

      lizg @12.28

      He said he put an amendment in to exempt agriculture which was voted down. All those right-wing governments in Europe I suspect.

      He also said that when he goes to the library where TTIP papers are held he is not even allowed to take pen and paper in far less a mobile phone. He is given a pen and “scribble sheet” to make notes.

      I think we should all be emailing our MEPs to tell them how we feel – that gives them ammunition to act on our behalf.

      Forget Tory and UKIP – Labour could go either way, he said.

      btw lizg I’m with you on food standards.

    466. liz g says:

      Still Positive @ 1.06
      Thanks for your reply I will certainly be contacting my MP
      over this.
      Good to know we agree about the food standard stuff.
      Will you keep me informed over on off topic if you hear anything else

    467. Still Positive. says:

      Should also have said that MEPs have to fight to see documents.

      Also some of you may have seen an article in the Independent about the Swedish lady quoted as saying she did not speak for the people of Europe.

      She speaks for European governments and was lambasted for that comment by many MEPs. He said she is one of the “good guys” and well-respected.

    468. liz g says:

      Still Positive @ 1.40
      Haven’t seen the reports but will keep an eye out for her name
      and of course I had ment to type MSP rather than MP.

    469. Petra says:

      @ Rock ……. Latest complaint … Craig Murray.

      Rock I just can’t figure you out. You say that you support Independence but never seem to post anything on here that’s constructive at all rather constantly try to undermine people such as Robert Peffers and Craig Murray …. The National and so on.

      You actually seem to be totally focused on targetting ‘sources’ that are extremely informative and helpful for our cause. Why?

      As an example have you read any of Craig Murray’s recent (and brilliant) articles such as on the Assange coverup; Philip Hammond lying about the qualifications of the UN working group (Assange); Oliver Kamm lying about Craig with people like Stephen Daisley backing him up; the Trident farce (North Korea); the Establishment marital / partner links such as Joanna Gosling BBC news married to Cameron’s Chief spin doctor Craig Oliver; the Deutche Bank fiasco and so on?

      I’m on my IPad so can’t post links but if you check them out you’ll find that Craig seems to be spending a GREAT deal of his time trying to ‘enlighten’ people whilst you seem to be keen on keeping us all in the ‘dark’: in line in fact with the behaviour of members of the corrupt unionist media.

    470. Cactus says:

      Great speech and letter from Nicola to the PM.. the power of words!

      Aye, a line has been drawn.

      Non detrimentus.

    471. yesindyref2 says:

      I wouldn’t have found Sturgeon’s press release and letter without your links, from the poor reporting of it on BBC, STV and in the papers apart from National, I probably wouldn’t have bothered looking. I certainly wouldn’t have found the STUC comment.

      But thanks to your links I’m armed and ready for posting, in the Herald. And as usual, rather than having to put it all in one humungously long posting, people replying give me a chance to get it all out – in reply to them. I just ignore their “SNPBad” stuff.

      Forearmed makes it like shooting fish in a barrel.

    472. yesindyref2 says:

      Not sure if anyone did this, The National front page:

      I hope a lot of newsagents, petrol stations, shops, supermarkets, have this displayed in pride of place today.

      It might make people wonder why the other media isn’t making a fuss about Westminster trying to rob Scotland blind of £3 billion.

      I’m also guesing there’ll be no more genuine complaints about The National. It’s the beating Heart of Scotland.

    473. Cactus says:

      The title of this article reminds me of this video: (by Têtes Parlantes.)

      If Scotland remains part of this union, then, we’re on a ‘road to nowhere.’

      As always, things go on, in the fore and background, stay tuned!

    474. Cactus says:

      Hi frogesque, liked your:

      Finally, a word to sleep on.


      Night all!

      n. Slang
      “One, especially a politician, who is guided by personal advantage rather than by consistent, respectable principles.”

      And almost an anagram for Gollysnotters too.. yer tea’s oot 🙂

    475. jockmcx says:

      Brexit..what happens if the uk leaves th eu?

      At a recent seance a group of ghostbusters consult the spirits of interdependence.

      Special guest appearance by Norman Lamont as.. Hardly Houdini.

      If the uk leaves the eu,will Scotland say fu?

    476. Iain says:

      Deutsche bank shares down 40% another 2008 style crash looming. Here we go again! According to the telegraph England want to reduce drink driving limit to Scottish levels.

    477. nycgype says:

      I can’t help thinking there is more to this from the Tories. If it was the Labour party they would just set up this pathetic trap and be surprised when you walk away. The Tories however are more likely to know that you know and have already planned the next move.

      I think it may come down to where the Tories think the case for independence is heading. If they are resigned to losing Scotland either through no real devolution (stalling for time) or Brexit (maybe they think it’s likely) then this could be their parting shot. Make a huge fuss about Scotland rejecting the Smith commission, rush through a change to the ‘unfair’ Barnett formula and slash Scotlands funding anyway. If it ends up wrecking Scottish public services they can try to declare the parliament unfit for purpose and scrap it.

      Might be far fetched but if the Tories are anything it’s bold in pushing their agenda. When they are desperate with nothing to lose then anything is possible. …

    478. Andrew Mclean says:


      May I be as bold to suggest that rather than the National being the beating heart, the revs organ pumps pretty strong too!

      Like a ROCK I am told!


    479. Capella says:

      Treasury officials wined & dined by arms giants & ‘rogue banks

    480. Andrew Mclean says:

      As a SNP member,, I was shocked to read the posts of one B Spanner QC,this has genuinely upset and disturbed me, Thanks to a poster last night I read up on this section 127 of the communications Act, use of public electronic communications network (1)A person is guilty of an offence if he—
      (a)sends by means of a public electronic communications network a message or other matter that is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character; or
      (b)causes any such message or matter to be so sent.
      (2)A person is guilty of an offence if, for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety to another, he—
      (a)sends by means of a public electronic communications network, a message that he knows to be false,
      (b)causes such a message to be sent; or
      (c)persistently makes use of a public electronic communications network.
      (3)A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable, on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or to both.

      I am due in Perth this morning, but I will be writing to the party asking why no complaints have been made, I find it unacceptable that the party should let this person so malign our female staff without holding him to account!

      Before anyone says I hear worse on tv, Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply to anything done in the course of providing a programme service (within the meaning of the Broadcasting Act 1990 (c. 42)).

    481. yesindyref2 says:

      @Andrew McLean
      If I could edit the posting I’d make it “It’s a beating Heart of Scotland”

      and then say “It always said that”!

    482. davidb says:

      @7:48 AM

      Links to antisemitic sites will not further our cause. Please think before you link!

    483. yesindyref2 says:

      I put a link in to the First Minister’s press release and letter to Cameron and it got deleted. I’ve tried other Scottish Government links and they’ve got deleted. I wonder how long this posting will last in the Herald:

      I can’t understand this. From the “READ THE NEW RULES HERE” above it says:

      – – – – – – – – – – – –
      Limit your links

      “Because we can’t check the content or technical robustness of other websites, you shouldn’t post live links. Official sites, such as those run by Governments or councils, are acceptable. In the same vein, please don’t introduce material wholesale from any other site into our threads…if you want to comment about that material, go to the other site instead.”
      – – – – – – – – – –

      and yet when I post official Scottish Government URLs they get deleted – like this:


      What’s going on?

      Surely the Herald wouldn’t just delete Scottish Government URLS so their readers can’t find out the real truth?

      Would they?

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