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Wings Over Scotland


Please be wrong

Posted on November 09, 2016 by

It’s 4.36am. I’m going to go to bed in a minute. I’m hoping that I get up in a few hours and laugh at this, delighted at my own unfounded pessimism.

trumpcall1

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If not, don’t say we didn’t warn you.

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    627 to “Please be wrong”

    1. Kevin Evans says:

      Oh my!!!!! Holy shit!!!! Deary me!!!!

      Mcternan does it again.

    2. Cactus says:

      Fraid knot.

      Scotland, you KNOW what to do now..

    3. AProudScotsman says:

      #TRUMP2016.

      Rather the Trump than the regressive Leftist criminal Clinton any day of the week if I’m honest!

    4. K1 says:

      Aye Stu…you called it. They took Bernie Saunders off the ticket, the biggest political mistake that the Dems have ever made. There are no words. It isn’t over yet…but it very much looks at this moment that the world wakes up to President Donald J Trump this morning.

      No more words.

    5. Cath says:

      I’m just gonna sit here for a while, maybe the next four years.

    6. Cactus says:

      Why are the vote tallies different on different television channels?

      It’s getting light..

    7. One_Scot says:

      I can’t sleep. Has Santa been yet?

    8. Ruglonian says:

      Ok, well I’m off to bed too.

      Us Scots have went though a few years of mental election nights, but this one is a bit much, so I’ll see you in the morning x

    9. K1 says:

      The votes are still being counted in some counties within the states under contention Cactus, so the number are in flux…until all votes are counted. There are delays in reporting and until the AP call it as a definitive win, some news rooms ‘call it’ even when it’s not ‘official’. Example Fox calling Wisconsin but Washington Post not until they get the official AP confirmation.

    10. One_Scot says:

      Sarah Palin there just saying were hooking up with Britain and going rouge. OMFG.

      Run Scotland, run for your life!

    11. Onwards says:

      Some amount of post-mortem analysis to come if Clinton loses this against all the polls.

    12. jimnarlene says:

      Trump has 244, looks like America has done a Brexit and shot itself in the foot.
      Seems like a f**k you, to the American establishment.

    13. heedtracker says:

      “Democrats turned their backs on blue collar, working class America,” says top Democrat to the Ligger.

      Look at SLab today, listen and learn SNP.

    14. Az says:

      Chobson’s hoice

      And he darn weyll rode it weyst

      Yee har!

    15. CyberMidgie says:

      My local Tesco is open 24 hours. Wonder if they’re doing any deals on tinned food?

    16. ClanDonald says:

      Why do you commission polls, Rev? Total wast of money, the pollsters should be paying you for your predictions, they might get it right for a change.

    17. One_Scot says:

      Looking for the positives, Trump and Boris, really, what could go wrong?

    18. mike cassidy says:

      I’ve got 800 miles of open border
      Right outside my door
      There’s minute men in little pick up trucks
      Who’ve declared their own damn war
      Now the government wants to build
      A barrier like old Berlin 8 feet tall
      But if uncle Sam sends the illegals home
      Who’s gonna build the wall?

      Who’s gonna build your wall boys?
      Who’s gonna mow your lawn?
      Who’s gonna cook your Mexican food
      When your Mexican maid is gone?
      Who’s gonna wax the floors tonight
      Down at the local mall?
      Who’s gonna wash your baby’s face?
      Who’s gonna build your wall?

      Now I ain’t got no politics
      So don’t lay that rap on me
      Left wing, right wing, up wing, down wing
      I see strip malls from sea to shining sea
      It’s the fat cat white developer
      Who’s created this whole damn squall
      It’s a pyramid scheme of dirty jobs
      And who’s gonna build your wall?

      Who’s gonna build your wall boys?
      Who’s gonna mow your lawn?
      Who’s gonna cook your Mexican food
      When your Mexican maid is gone?
      Who’s gonna wax the floors tonight
      Down at the local mall?
      Who’s gonna wash your baby’s face?
      Who’s gonna build your wall?

      We’ve got fundamentalist Muslims
      We’ve got fundamentalist Jews
      We’ve got fundamentalist Christians
      They’ll blow the whole thing up for you
      But as I travel around this big old world
      There’s one thing that I most fear
      It’s a white man in a golf shirt
      With a cell phone in his ear

      Who’s gonna build your wall boys?
      Who’s gonna mow your lawn?
      Who’s gonna cook your Mexican food
      When your Mexican maid is gone?
      Who’s gonna wax the floors tonight
      Down at the local mall?
      Who’s gonna wash your baby’s face?
      Who’s gonna build your wall?

    19. yesindyref2 says:

      Well Rev, looks like you were right. But the “establishment” was and is against Trump. That debate (2nd?) all the pundits had it for Clinton, I had it for Trump, who won by honestly getting it wrong, and humour. And the bias against him has been as bad as that against Indy.

      Who knows, there may be pleasant surprises, but I’d say the world may have moved a step back from war. One thing’s for sure, it’s going to be real.

    20. ahundredthidiot says:

      anyone paying really close attention to the back stories in the last few weeks should not be surprised by this very real possibility of Trump winning – nay, likelihood.

      It isn’t good enough to view from a distance, listen to MSM and think they’re right (particularly on this site!) and dismiss the Trumpeteers as mental.

      I’ve never been in a bookies in my life and even I was tempted to put 50 quid on it.

      Good news is the US President has no real power……just ask Jimmy Carter.

    21. One_Scot says:

      I have believed for many years that for the human species to survive we have to leave this planet. Anyone know what time the next bus leaves?

    22. yesindyref2 says:

      Talking about the media bias, has anyone noticed that whenever a paper, article, showed pictures of Clinton and Trump recently, she was always smiling and looking nice, whereas he was done up like a Sturgeon with the mouth open, and the face photo-shopped red and blotchy?

    23. mike cassidy says:

      Nothing on McTernan’s twitter for five hours.

      Where do prophets go to die?

    24. chris kilby says:

      Kezia Dugdale strikes again. Thank you, John McTernan.

      This will embolden the far right across europe and the UK. Not to mention England, Farage, UKIP, and the Brexit crowd. So we can probably kiss independence goodbye now as well.

      It’s not over yet. But it sure looks like it.

      Fuck.

    25. Cactus says:

      Cheers tya.

    26. ahundredthidiot says:

      one scot

      I will give you a positive. the 1% who own 98% of the worlds wealth will be shitting themselves.

      if the working man/woman took all their wealth off them, national debts could be paid off, no debt, no deficit payments.

      then the rebuilding can start, not before.

      alas I dream……

    27. bugsbunny says:

      Republicans now control the Lower House, the House of Representatives with 220 seats out of 435.

    28. davidb says:

      Looks like it was Kez’s magic touch that swung it right enough. Hillary had a massive lead a couple of weeks ago. Clearly not a coincidence.

    29. mike cassidy says:

      ahundredthidiot 5.28

      I will give you a positive. the 1% who own 98% of the worlds wealth will be shitting themselves

      Really.

      Trump is one of that 1%.

      And he’s just got a lot of the 98% to vote for him.

      The 1% will be shitting themselves laughing.

    30. yesindyref2 says:

      @ahundredthidiot
      I’ll give you another positive. He’s unpredictable and uncontrollable.

      That’s two positives! At heart he’s an Indy supporting rebel.

      That’s three …

    31. Luigi says:

      As Michael Moore has said, it will be the biggest “F-ck You” in history. This is BREXIT on steroids, folks, and the elites only have themselves to blame. Financial constipation by greedy billionaires, refusing to allow their ill-gotten, leveraged wealth to redistribute, has made an awful lot of angry people. The plebs are revolting. Scotland’s turn next. 🙂

      Rev, you are never wrong (well hardly ever). 🙂

      Let’s face it, with two awful candidates, it was going to be a global disaster either way. The only very small consolation is the absolute gutted look on the usual smug MSM reporters and pollsters (on both sides of the Atlantic). Quite a few billionaires will be quacking in their yachts. How sure they were that Trump couldn’t win, but the warning signs have been there for months. A big consolation is that WW3 has been postponed a little bit longer. Enjoy life while you can folks.

    32. Onwards says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      9 November, 2016 at 5:15 am

      I had it for Trump, who won by honestly getting it wrong, and humour.
      ———-

      Humour? That’s an interesting one. Like enough people are prepared to forgive all his gaffes, just because he comes across as more ‘real’ and says whatever he thinks?
      Clinton is certainly robotic at times, that’s for sure.

      Although watching CNN it isn’t in the bag yet for Trump. Democrats are hoping the inner city areas have enough votes left for Clinton in the battleground states.

    33. ahundredthidiot says:

      mike cassidy

      you’re right about Trump….I am no fan BTW and I am not for a second suggesting he would deliver my dream.

      What I am saying is, the rabble is rising…barbarians at the gates….commoners out of control..

      The 1% will be nervous, of that I am sure.

    34. Al Stuart says:

      Stu, there is some good news in all of this that I hope your forensic mind might find fact to agree with…

      They said Brexiit would not happen.

      It did.

      They said that Trump would not be president.

      He is.

      They said that Scotland would not become Independent.

      We will.

      More good news, on another wise dire night…

      In 4 years, 8 maximum, President Trump will no longer be in office.

      But…

      Scotland will be Independent FOREVER 🙂

      Would you agree ?

    35. Meg merrilees says:

      Sorry guys, can’t see any positives about tonight’s result!

      Republicans with their Royal Prerogative will be able to push all their plans through.

      Some woman on the radio saying she likes the fact that Trump is a liberal, a pacifist and fiscally speaking she thinks he will pay off the deficit(?).
      He promotes women (!!!) and has fought for Jews. He’s a nice guy and people in Britain only believe the bad press he’s had in our papers e.g he has a bad temper.
      Another guy described him as:
      He is the loud, obnoxious advocate for the little guy that you don’t want him to be.

      We can only watch from the sidelines!

      I wish Faslane wasn’t in Scotland!

    36. Stoker says:

      The Trumpeters are getting out the brasso down Trumpton way.

      I’ve been working on my 21st century Anderson shelter all night,
      it’s 50 feet under ma hoose and it’s fully equipped and stocked.

      See you all on the other side.
      🙂

    37. ahundredthidiot says:

      meg m

      please. are you seriously suggesting Clinton would be good for world peace! ha!

      maybe take a look at the stocks and shares of all those arms manufacturers tumble when the markets open as a result of her losing!!

    38. bugsbunny says:

      California has just legalised pot. Voters today have just voted in favour of Proposition 64. So they can now be legally stoned when the deportations of latinos and the race riots start.

    39. Onwards says:

      Looks like Trump has it now for sure.
      PA 97% in.

    40. Ken500 says:

      What a carry on. Just another diversion. The Senate/Congress hold the purse strings. There are elections in the US every two years. People can change their minds quite quickly. Obama was a lame duck President for six years. Trump will be contained.

      Trump has investments in Scotland. Scottish Planning Laws have held restraint.

      Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence.

    41. Al-Stuart says:

      Stu., There is a little good news which I reckon some forensic study and assembly of facts might game-play with ironically positive results…

      The media and pollsters said…

      Brexit would not happen.

      It did.

      The media and pollsters said…

      Trump would not president.

      He is.

      The media and pollsters said…

      Scottish Independence will not happen.

      It will.

      I mention game-play. This is NOT a game, but if we map out some of the pathways going forward, I put just one modest scenario…

      In Scotland there WILL be growing nervousness about the nuclear missiles that Westminster RENT from President Trump. Especially as Donald Trump is so weak he can be baited by Twitter posts to attack, and he will have nuclear launch codes at his fingertips come January 2017. Scots will see the USA have elected President Laxative more like it.

      In Scotland we only need a 3% swing from NO voters to YES and I would venture that the threat of nuclear holocaust might nudge half a percent of Scots from this NO to YES position as a way to get rid of the Russian nuke magnet at Faslane.

      Having lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis when USA President Kennedy and USSR Premier Khrushchev had itchy nuclear button fingers – I watched that nightmare cause many nuclear bunkers to be built in back gardens and the UK UKWMO network of hundreds of nuclear bunkers to be manned by a dedicated RoC defence corps on the back of FEAR.

      The nuclear war issue is just ONE matter arising from President Trump that may push Scotland to Independence.

      Another last point…

      In 4 years (maximum 8) President Trump will be gone from office.

      BUT Scotland will be Independent FOREVER.

      Does anyone else see interesting scenarios for Scottish Independence rising like a phoenix from the ashes of this dreadful November night?

    42. Bob Mack says:

      Can’t shake the feeling we are just witnessing the world in the early throes of turmoil.
      The UK has its Brexit, USA vote for Trump, and the Right Wing on the rise in France.
      People are making political choices that support and create division rather than cohesion
      There is a quickening of the pace of dissatisfaction for numerous reasons and it is strange to watch it all play out. On every occasion in history this has happened there has only ever been one outcome ,War.

      Perhaps there is something inate in our species that leads us inexorably down this path to a destiny with conflict.

    43. ronnie anderson says:

      Ur we at Defcon 3 yit

    44. bugsbunny says:

      Republicans control the lower house with 228 seats and now have 49 Senate seats. If he wins the electoral college and both houses, then he ain’t no Lame Duck. He might as well be crowned Emperor.

    45. Struan says:

      Awoken with a fear this morning only America could be more stupid lol the people deserve what’s coming!!

    46. Macart says:

      Yeah, that about sums up 2016.

      Whoever won that election the world loses. Replacing an establishment warmonger with an intolerant xenophobe who aspired to the establishment. A man whose running mate apparently believes in conversion therapy for the gay community.

      The most powerful office in the free world looks likely now be soon inhabited by an individual who has never represented anyone but himself.

      His first job will probably be to find the ‘how to’ manual of presidential office. The country that gave you Washington, Lincoln and Roosevelt. Now in all likelihood, Trump.

      Oh hell! Just heard Le Pen sends congratulations to Trump.

      2016 should be thoroughly ashamed of itself.

    47. K1 says:

      Trump takes Pennsylvania. It’s happening folks.

    48. Undeadshuan says:

      Just found that california has an independence movement.

      This site even has a blue book on independence for california ..

      http://www.yescalifornia.org

      Have you got American relatives rev ?

    49. Undeadshuan says:

      I guess Usa didnt want uk to keep mantle of dummest country in the world and wanted it back from UK.

    50. K1 says:

      Trump just needs 6 more votes

    51. ronnie anderson says:

      Ties and Shirt sales will have the Presidential Seal on them now but they’ll have to be made in America ha ha.

    52. John Thomson says:

      Stu this is the equivalent of a peaceful coup. The world doesn’t know how bad it needs this. Can’t wait for independence, you have called it from the start both here and abroad including EU so they cant say they haven’f been warned. Trumps team will carry out a smooth transition and all will be well, in time of trouble we all come together,we sometimes need a BIG push. Well done

    53. manandboy says:

      Think of El Nino and apply it to politics.

    54. Meg merrilees says:

      Ahundredthidiot

      Of course i’m not. Don’t put words in my mouth!

      I’m saying that we have a man with a huge ego now leading the Free world.
      With him as POTUS there are now too many “unknown unknowns”.
      Temperamentally unsound; totally inexperienced for the job; Is he going to sue the women whom he has sexually abused?
      Will he start building his Mexican wall today and start deporting planeloads of muslims? When he gives his acceptance speech and mentions Hilary Clinton will his adoring crowd chant ‘Lock her up!’

      What a ridiculous situation.

      With Hilary Clinton it would have been a case of ‘better the devil you know’ but at least she has dignity and maturity.

      Suppose Liam Fox will be on the first plane out of Heathrow this morning to negotiate a new deal with the US post Brexit and Brexit plus plus plus.

      Peso has ‘dropped off a cliff’ and devalued by 15%. Mexico worried sick re their future with their neighbour.

    55. Richardinho says:

      I was certainly wrong. I thought Hillary would edge it. Then again I was assuming that the polls were correct.

      My actual prediction regarding Trump presidency is that he will do very little day to day (if anything at all). In fact what I think has happened is that the Republican party has just taken control of the American government.

      In a way this is a most fascinating outcome. Now we’ll finally get to see what the effects of pure unfettered right wing ideology is. Who knows, maybe I’ll be wrong about that and it will turn out to be a rip roaring success!

    56. K1 says:

      She is not, ah repeat ‘not’ ceding the election. He campaign manager Podesta has announced that some states are being contested, all the votes are not in. ‘We can wait a little longer, can’t we’ – John Pedestal

    57. K1 says:

      Oops…well pedestal will do lol

    58. scottieDog says:

      Climates fucked

    59. Richardinho says:

      The oppressed hoards have sent a message to the establishment.
      Unfortunately that message is: ‘please fuck me in the ass some more’

    60. K1 says:

      not conceding…v tired ;-(

    61. yesindyref2 says:

      Inauguration Day 20th January 2017.

      Some of youse seem to be distraught. But as someone else pointed out this is a media site, and practically uniformly the media in the UK have been anti-Trump, even on breakfast TV they’ve had a laugh. The political pundits the same, and pollsters patting themselves on the back for predicting a guaranteeable win for Clinton. Ain’t she great.

      Well they’ve all got egg on their faces and will be wiping it off for weeks, until by January they’ll all be saying they suported Trump all along and predicted he’d win, and isn’t it great a non-political businessman is President.

      Now, what was all those arseholes attitude to Indy again …

    62. Robert Louis says:

      F*ck’s sake America.. F*ck’s sake.. F*ck’s sake America.. F*ck’s sake..etc..etc 🙁 🙁 🙁

    63. chris kilby says:

      What rough beast slouches toward Washington to be born?

    64. Robert Louis says:

      Seems like the yanks have crashed the Canada immigration website. Can’t blame them.

    65. CmonIndy says:

      Trump closing in. NEVER LET MCTERNAN OUT OF BED EVER AGAIN.

    66. Andrew says:

      The only thing that we can know for sure is that the poles are used to manipulate the outcome not predict it.

      Otherwise they would not always get it wrong.

    67. ronnie anderson says:

      Aberdeen Airport breaking out the Stars & Stripes bunting for the arrival of Airforce One ,jist wondering where they will be putting the Statue.

    68. ahundredthidiot says:

      Bernie Sanders would’ve won this hands down and the World would’ve been a safer place for sure.

      you want to blame people folks?, blame the DNC

    69. Andrew Mclean says:

      It’s nice our young folks will experience the 80s again,
      Remember Ronald Ray Gun, I predict a 80s revival, now where’s that big country cd!

    70. Richardinho says:

      I agree, the DNC is very much to blame: First their strategy of ‘bipartisanship’ where they failed to see the danger of working hand in hand with Republicans (James Comey is one product of this) and secondly their tilting of the scales to stop the more popular candidate, Bernie Sanders, winning the primary. It was all indicative of a ‘we know best’ attitude which we see reflected across the pond in the likes of McTeirnan and co.

    71. robertknight says:

      Oh well, at least it proves that the Scots, followed two years later by the English & Welsh, don’t have a monopoly on “Stupid”.

    72. Ken500 says:

      The Poison Chalice

      One in five Presidents have died in Office. 4 have been assasinated. 10%.

      There are.election every two years in the US.

    73. K1 says:

      WInsonsin has been officially verified. Trump has done it. 276 votes. AP calling it. He’s is the President of the US.

    74. ronnie anderson says:

      For fucks sake, Forrest Gumps starting his campain for 2021 Presidential Elections

    75. One_Scot says:

      RT has just called Trump the next President of the United States.

    76. yesindyref2 says:

      A divided country the US, severely divided, say the pundits.

      Kind of reminds me of something, can’t just put my finger on it.

    77. Richardinho says:

      ‘There are.election every two years in the US.’

      Historically yes. But in the future? The Republicans have been gerrymandering the electoral map in recent years allowing them to get Congressional majorities on minority voting shares.
      Likewise they have been ramping up voter suppression by closing polling stations and striking people off the voting register. (Which may have made a difference in this election). Without question they will ramp up this effort. I fear that today marks the end of democracy in the United States.

    78. ronnie anderson says:

      Forrest Gumps just announced his running mate for vice president Homer Simpson.

    79. K1 says:

      Pence about to speak is about to go on stage. Announced as VP of US.

    80. Giving Goose says:

      So this is what happens when you implement economic and social experiments and do not explain to the ordinary man and woman on the street what the benefits are to them.

      It’s happened in the UK with Brexit.

      It’s now happened in the USA.

      One thing that I would ask of all armchair commentators is to be less optimistic about the human condition.

      I’m afraid that a great number of ordinary people simply see the world in very simple terms.

      We all need to be mindful of that.

    81. Macart says:

      @Yesindyref2

      Does have a whiff of something familiar right enough.

      Mind you, the whole campaign had more than a whiff of familiar sound bites.

    82. You are probably cowering under the duvet in BATH by now, Stu. It’s 7.23 am, and Trump appears to be well on the way to becoming Commander in Chief of the greatest arsenal of WMD ever assembled by mankind, and the Senate and Congress are also forecast to have Republican majorities.
      You are a modern day Dante, Stu, We have stumbled through the Dark Forest, and the Inferno of Dante’s Divine Comedy unfolds. We are at the Gateway to Hell, and the legend above the portal reads:-
      ‘Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.’
      We are about to spiral downwards through the nine circles on the road to Hell.
      Dante’s ‘cowards’, the fence sitters, the wafflers, the opportunists, and the neutrals, have voted for a modern day Charon, the ‘white haired and fiery eyed’ ferryman who will pilot the lost souls across the lake to Hades.
      The Seven Deadly Sins are OK now. If you are a white Christian Fundamentalist, it’s Locker Room Banter, if you hablos Espanol, you are a rapist drug dealer.
      Muslims will be presumed guilty, until proved, well guilty.
      It’s ok to brag about assaulting women, you can wear a flour sack with peep holes, and burn fiery crosses and boast about dodging taxes.All together now, ‘we’re up to our knees in Fenian Blood, Ooh Ahh, Up The Ra!
      Trump is now the finger on the button of WMD berthed not 25 miles from my wee but ‘n’ ben.
      Yet Patrick Harvie supports the right of Trumpettes over here to sing about spilling Fenian Blood and murdering British Soldiers.He’s definitely on message now, eh?
      In Revelations, Apocalypse, the ‘Cowards’ in Limbo, God says,’because thou are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot’, (have voted Brexit, and now Trump), ‘and I will vomit you from my mouth’.
      There is only one path for Scots citizens now. Get back on to Dante’s ‘diritta via’,the ‘straight path’. The first step is Self Determination, and as an independent nation within the EU, contribute to pulling the world back from the Armageddon of the Right Wing Fundamentalism of the Western New World Order.
      ‘Weep not for me, but for your children and your children’s children’. Now who said that?

    83. One_Scot says:

      Well if nothing else, the ‘Back to the Future 4’ writers have a few more gags for their script.

    84. Never mind. Soon be Christmas….:-?

    85. ahundredthidiot says:

      Terrible….but a little funny….

      my boys says ‘ Donald Trumps kid’s what, twelve…and already looks like an arsehole!’

    86. Dorothy Devine says:

      Ooooh! Wonder how Alex Salmond will get on with the new POTUS! ( I always think POTUS sounds vaguely vulgar)

      I didn’t want either of them to win but I suppose I consider Trump the lesser of two evils – and even I find that a curiously strange thing to type.

      Michael Moore and you Rev – great predictions!

      I suspect the MSM will be galloping on blaming Putin for the new President in what has become a ridiculous parody of investigative journalism.

      Actually , the media with egg all over its face is a particular delight.

    87. ronnie anderson says:

      What a Total Hypocrite arsehole Trump is . Clinton is owed a debt of thanks for her hard work over a long period . I take it then she will get a Presidential pardon.

    88. Ken500 says:

      Mass hysteria. The US is at Civil War. States’ Law governs the US.

      The Tories imposed 5 year election period in the UK. Gerrymandering. The UK has an unelected biased right wing Monarchy. The purdah period is broken by unelected political Pollsters. Gerrymandering. Electoral Law is broken. The Tories committed electoral fraud in 31 Constituencies, with impunity. People should concentrate nearer to home where they have a vote. Instead of being distracted with nonsense.

    89. ahundredthidiot says:

      Look on the bright side folks…
      a Scotsman in the White House…

      Just beaming with pride…….

    90. Socrates MacSporran says:

      ronnie anderson @ 7.39am:

      I’ll vote for and drink to that.

    91. Vestas says:

      There’s one good thing which may come out of this whole mess – the Israelis will no longer control the US administration via AIPAC.

      Trump is quite likely to tell Netanyahu and his hideous religious-apartheid state to fuck off and buy their own weapons. At this point where Republicans control the presidency, senate and congress it might actually happen.

      About time the Israelis got a taste of their own medicine.

      Interesting times….

    92. harry mcaye says:

      Thanks John McTernan, £100 profit on Trump to win Presidency and, on hearing you were in North Carolina, £21 profit on him to win there. Keep on keeping on JT!

      To be fair, could just have listened to Stu!

    93. R-type Grunt says:

      At least now I can say that I have actually seen it all.

    94. mike cassidy says:

      Mcternan.

      Twitter account inactive for 7 hours now.

      Come on, John.

      Is Trump a one-term president or not?

    95. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Laura Trevelyan of the BBC becomes an American citizen today.

      Wonder if Oor Andra will ever become a Scottish citizen.

    96. Another Union Dividend says:

      Andrew Neil purring at the result and with Theresa May’s Tories now Ukip lite, paraphrasing Winnie Ewing, stop the world I want to get off!

      Dugdale and McTernan’s campaigning made the difference!

      PS Have the odd pro Indy Scotsman letter writers given up as are their letters no longer printed.

      And in Herald Frank McAveety slagging Sturgeon over Council Tax cuts. Different attitude if she was a dark dusky 16 year old.

    97. Hamish100 says:

      Sorry Stu you were not wrong.

      Even more important Scotland remains in EU as the tory farage types will do the US of A business without question. Do we want that?

      I hope Michelle Obama leaves a speech for Ivana Trump that is appropriate!!

      Looks like brickies will be heading to the mexican border.

      Terrible all round unless you are a brickie, racist, gun salesman, billionaires

    98. paul says:

      I hope trump says thank you to the Scottish Labour Party, Kezia Dugdale and John Mcternan’s late intervention for hillary has worked its electoral magic once again

    99. Ghillie says:

      Ok America,

      You have four years to learn from this experience.

      Use your time wisely.

    100. manandboy says:

      In a sandstorm, it’s best to keep the lid on your coffee.

      Even after Trump’s win, the dust will settle, even though it might take some considerable time. Then, everyone will see where we’re going with this.

    101. G H Graham says:

      The Presidential result proves one thing; the days of the mass biased left wing media in the USA getting the President it wanted, is for now, clearly over.

      And I think that the extreme right wing media here in Britain, won’t win a second Scottish independence referendum either.

      In 2014, the BBC managed a narrow victory on behalf of the British Establishment in London but trust in that corrupt organisation continues to evaporate as the blatant lies & misleading statements it published on behalf of Better Together & the British Government continue to be proven thus.

      It’s been brought to readers’ attention many times here before but it’s worth saying it again; polls are just that; a poll. And while the media shows no signing of giving them up as a tool in an attempt to shape public opinion, it also proves that either it has absolutely no grasp of public sentiment or willfully ignore the majority in order to drive home a result to further its own agenda.

      There will be a lot of angry people this morning but none more so than the Mexican Government who are likely going to have to find the wrong side of $2 billion to build a wall.

      Maybe they should consult Ed Milliband. He threatened to build one between Carlisle & Berwick for free.

    102. David says:

      Ach well, on the bright side, it is now only 4 years before US elects President Lisa Simpson. 😉

    103. John Edgar says:

      Reality check ! The pundits claim Trump’s win is like Brexit.
      Not really! Brexit us an Anglo-Welsh phenomenon. The Scots and the Northern Irish voted to remain.
      Let’s keep things in perspective!

    104. mike cassidy says:

      Sorry, Vestas 8.13

      Nowhere near as straightforward as that.

      http://archive.is/eqCpK

    105. t42 says:

      the guardian/bbc types sneer down their noses at the grass roots movements. They have a name that they spit out the side of their mouths. They call them “Populists”.
      They use the phrase “post-truth politics”. This is double-speak. What they mean is: post-truth [truth based on the lies fed to the people via the controlled and proven corrupt mainstream media] politics.

      indyref1, brexit, trump, all grass roots campaigns run on a shoestring.

      what is going on- mass political participation based on new sources of information and a growing realisation that the people have been lied to by the corporate mainstream media.

      ps. fake polls used again. unusually high levels of postal votes for hillary. a warning for indyref2

    106. Ken500 says:

      Two years for any regrets, Quite a short period. Or even more people in the US take a bullet. Presidential status is a risky business,

    107. David says:

      2 minute clip from the Simpsons, where President Lisa finds out that Pres. Trump left the USA stony broke:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtparSnQhFc

    108. Grouse Beater says:

      Just in case you missed this prediction: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-aR9

    109. mike cassidy says:

      Months ago I told someone that when I was younger I would have been morally appalled at the thought of a President Trump –

      but in my cynical sixties I would find it amusing.

      So here we go with the laughs.

      http://archive.is/rbKGe

    110. If this result proves one important point it’s this, and it’s very pertinent to the next Scottish Independence Referendum. The M.S.M can be beaten. As far as I could tell, not only the U.S media, but world media, did not want Trump to win. They are still our greatest obstacle to us winning Indyref2, and todays result, whatever your feelings about the candidates, proves we can overcome them, and gain our independence.
      Still no word this morning from the “respected pundits” as to how they got it so wrong.

    111. Craig P says:

      Craig Ferguson became a US citizen just in time…

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M4kFtO2g_Xw

    112. Robert Peffers says:

      @Meg merrilees says: 9 November, 2016 at 5:49 am:

      “… I wish Faslane wasn’t in Scotland!”

      You got that wrong, Meg. I wish Faslane WAS in Scotland. At the moment it is not. It is part of the United Kingdom, (a.k.a. England).

      However, as the United Kingdom, (a.k.a. England), is actually a small, insignificant, state in the United States, (a.k.a. America), and as the United Kingdom,(a.k.a. England), is about to Brexit the EU and cement their, “Special Relationship)”, with the USA the sordid truth is that Faslane is factually USA territory in Scotland and is home to part of the USAsian nuclear missile system.

    113. Pete says:

      Like Brexit, very pleased with this result.
      It sticks it right up to the establishment including the SNP which drips with PC righteousness.
      Very stupid of NS and AS to abuse Trump. Didn’t they strip him of some Ambassadorial role.
      Not good to offend other nations as they have just done with China.
      Feel independence is beginning to recede.

    114. Tinto Chiel says:

      Michael Moore and the Rev called it right. Thanks also to Kezia for her sterling work.

      Looking forward to your next tweet, Stu: “Yes will win Indyref2.”

    115. DerekM says:

      Aye Rev called it again,though it was an easy call Clinton has to much baggage floating about in the open,got to hand it to the Trumpsters they did a cracking smear job on her.

      Though it is quite startling when you ask most folks just what policy can you remember from either candidate from this election,its the Donald and his Mexican built wall.

      If only we could harness collective stupidity as energy the worlds lights would never dim jeez

    116. ahundredthidiot says:

      Pete

      on NS ‘advice’ to convert 5 No’s, I am up to 8, seven softs and one hard, and that was before this catastrophe!

      I will aim to get up to 15 before Xmas.

      Sorry, what were you saying about Independence receding??

    117. Ken500 says:

      Brexit will mean Trident will be going. The US didn’t want it there in the first place. It was McMillian who secretly dumped it here. Making taxpayers pay £Billions for obsolete weaponry. Not the US the UK Gov. The US had to rein in overseas Defence (attack) spending. It is $Trillions in debt. With an economy ready to go over a cliff and take the rest of the world with it. If it doesn’t rein in Defence (attack) spending it will be bankrupt. The $ is already falling.

      Trump now has to release his tax returns.

      Vote SNP/SNP May 2017. Vote for Independence.

    118. Cuilean says:

      Peter,

      it was SLAB who posed for pictures outside Holyrood with a cardborad cut out of HIllary Clinton.

      Also Trump is half Scottish, his mother a crofter on Isle of Lewis whose first language was Gaelic.

      Trump is very proud of his Scots roots and unlike Clinton & Obama who when urged by Cameron to do down Scotland’s right to be a normal self-governing country, I believe Trump will very much support Scots IndyRef2. After all the Tories at Westminster admit they do not know Trump at all as they have ignored him to date. For me this election removes one more scare tactic by Yoons in Indyref2.

    119. One_Scot says:

      ‘Feel independence is beginning to recede’.

      And I thought Trump becoming President would be the maddest shit I would read today. Lol.

    120. Robert Peffers says:

      @Richardinho says: 9 November, 2016 at 7:36 am:

      ” … I fear that today marks the end of democracy in the United States.”

      Like in the United Kingdom, democracy in the USA ended a long time ago. They both have only just pretended it hasn’t for many decades.

    121. One_Scot says:

      Next time some foaming mouthed Yoon bangs on about IndyRef2 polls, just tell them polls shmolls.

    122. Legerwood says:

      Tonto Chiel

      Re Michael Moore calling it right. I am sure I heard him on CH4 news last night saying it would be Clinton.

    123. Free Scotland says:

      The Curse of McTernan. It seems to come with a guarantee.

      Let’s hope he leads the next Bitter Together campaign.

    124. gordoz says:

      The Unprecedented President will soon be in place and the American people will have to live with this result for at least 4yrs.

      We just need to get on with it and hope he has enough on his plate to forget all about Scotland.

    125. dakk says:

      Well done to Donald Trump in succeeding in overcoming the Establishment to become President.

      Whether he will be a good President time will tell.

      One thing I do believe.

      His straight talking and calling out of the media and his opponents lies helped him win.

      Perhaps if SNP called out the BBC and the Yoon enemies of Scotland in such a manner we too could prevail.

    126. schrodingers cat says:

      mmm, so we didnt dodge that bullet

      his first presidential visit will be to london, the queen, the tories and the bbc will kiss his arse

      did you notice how little criticism of trump there has been from theresa may and her government? the smart move. The uk/us trade deal will be back at the front of the cue and the ukippers and brexiteers will love trump for that

      trump will oblige them all by putting the boot into scotland, nicola, the snp and the yes campaign

      “America will block any attempt by scotland to break away from the UK etc etc…The US will block all trade deals with an indy scotland…etc”

      we can witter on about what currency an iscotland will use, but trump will ensure we lose the economic argument in indyref2

      the snp picked a fight with someone who just became the most powerful person on the planet, pay back time for us will be pretty high on his agenda.

      btw, a £5 accumulator on Leicester, brexit and trump would pay out £12.5 million this morning

      bugger

    127. G H Graham says:

      Wee tip for Ms. Sturgeon & other heads of state; if you have an opinion on a US Presidential candidate or indeed any candidate for office in any another country, maybe keep yer gob shut until AFTER the result comes in.

      Now you’ll have to talk out both sides of your mouth if/when you & Trump end up meeting each other. You know, diplomacy ain’t that effin hard to figure out.

      Stay tuned for another tip tomorrow.

    128. Legerwood says:

      It was the Polaris missile system in the 1960s that Mr McMillan was involved with not Trident and it was hardly secret.

      Trident replaced Polaris but not until 1996.

    129. Greannach says:

      Yet another significant win for guru McTernan and his little helper, Dugdale.

    130. Valerie says:

      Michael Moore wrote a number of times why Trump would win, but he voted for Hillary, as I saw on Twitter. A lot of it he compared to the Brexit scenario, in terms of demographic.

      I’m a bit sorry he used his vote for Hillary, but I suppose he felt it was the best he could do.

      I went to bed at midnight, as I was pretty sure Trump would win, and its not great watching it unfold.

    131. Ken500 says:

      Trump and the Tories have two years to deliver. Quite a short deadline.

      Trump will now have to release his tax returns. Teresa May is supposed to release her tax returns.

      Vote SNP/SNP May 2017. Vote for Independence.

    132. Grouse Beater says:

      Pete: “It sticks it right up to the establishment including the SNP which drips with PC righteousness.”

      No point going into print to make yourself look more of an idiot than normal, if ‘normal’ is a word I can apply to your hatred and aggression.

    133. John H. says:

      A united Europe is essential now more than ever. I hope that Scotland can be a part of that as an independent nation.

    134. schrodingers cat says:

      cuilean wins coconut for most deluded post of the day.

      you forgot about his hatred of salmond over the wind turbine in front of his golf course.

      get his own back against the snp will be fairly high on his agenda gordoz

    135. Ken500 says:

      The US do not want Trident sited in Scotland. It is Westminster who spend £Billions on Trident. Brexit will mean it is going.

    136. Valerie says:

      @G H Graham

      I simply couldn’t fathom Nicola doing that, and I’m a huge fan. Someone said it was perhaps to put distance between her and Trump, but I think it was one of her rare slips.

      She certainly got pelters on social media, just saying we don’t like them interfering, so don’t you do it.

    137. Grouse Beater says:

      Valerie: “Michael Moore wrote a number of times why Trump would win, but he voted for Hillary”

      He voted for Sanders first, but did warn us Trump appealed to the jobless and the disenfranchised. His success proves that the richest country in the world also has the most poorest people anywhere. And it is the most aggressive internationally, and will continue being so under Trump.

      Clinton has herself to blame; she was screechy and arrogant.

    138. Andrew McLean says:

      Pete says: 9:03 am

      “It sticks it right up to the establishment including the SNP which drips with PC righteousness.”

      Yes that billionaire who was born a millionaire, who went to the right school, who lives the life of avarice in the richest country in the world, yes real anti establishment figure him, and as for” PC righteousness”, so you condemn me because I like politicians who don’t grab women by the vagina, and slobber all over them, who don’t insult a man because the colour of his skin or his religion, or even make fun of his disability. That say’s a lot more about you that I.

      “Not good to offend other nations as they have just done with China.”

      Yes Europe just loves the UK for telling it to F off and who offended China, our opposition parties Labour, Conservative and Liberals told the Chinese government to piss off? Did you Google “Scottish government China deal” , you know the Chinese have a battalion working on their web prescience, it is no wonder they thought Scotland not worth the bother.

      “Feel independence is beginning to recede.”

      Peter I have already told you, this isn’t Twitter, how you or I feel is irrelevant, you don’t “own” wings with vague sanctimonious comment, you don’t have an army of sycophants here. To be perfectly honest you lose ever debate you enter into here, but don’t have the intelligence to realise it!
      Please don’t be a bore Pete.

    139. schrodingers cat says:

      Macart says:
      9 November, 2016 at 7:47 am

      @Yesindyref2

      Does have a whiff of something familiar right enough.

      Mind you, the whole campaign had more than a whiff of familiar sound bites.

      I wonder if we will see a sharp rise in race crime in the us as we did in england after the brexit vote

    140. Ronnie says:

      Any bets on this happening in 2017?

      New President meets new Prime Minister.

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/?s=Future+Shock

    141. Dr Jim says:

      Don’t worry folks America is still *Grate* and walways ill be

    142. Andrew McLean says:

      schrodingers cat says:

      “The SNP picked a fight with someone who just became the most powerful person on the planet”, pay back time for us will be pretty high on his agenda”.

      Really?

      calm down, its only an election, either way Clinton or Trump, or even Colonel Sanders new spicy dip, it will have absolutely no impact whatsoever on the Independence question, none!

    143. Jock McDonnell says:

      Well done Rev & Matt Groening, tough luck kez and john

      Now Clinton won’t be interfering in indyref2

    144. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Peter

      “…SNP which drips with PC righteousness.”

      You’ll be in the bottom camp then:

      http://imgur.com/a/PlERn

    145. DerekM says:

      So Pete would you rather they were dripping with corruption?

      I suspect your idea of what the SNP are comes from your yoon press who are so desperate to make them look bad.

      But you see it has never been the SNP that is the unionists parties problem ,you lot can jump up and down and scream your sad little brainless heads off all you want at the SNP we the independence minded people of Scotland are not going to change direction towards independence just because the SNP was bad.

      Still dont get it yoons do you lol

    146. mike cassidy says:

      Well, that’s one way of putting it.

      http://archive.is/CgEMm

      And so is this

      http://archive.is/0PyHV

    147. bjsalba says:

      @Hamish100
      The current Trump trophy wife is Melania.
      Ivana was wife #1.

    148. Muscleguy says:

      Breaking news: America to annex Aberdeenshire. A new Clearance will begin.

    149. Dan Huil says:

      So the folks of the USA tell the establishment politicians and the establishment media to get lost. Soon the folks of Scotland will tell the Westminster establishment and britnat media to get lost.

    150. Breastplate says:

      Why were all the polls so wrong is a question I would like answered.

    151. Roboscot says:

      ‘“The US will block all trade deals with an indy scotland…etc”’

      An iScotland in the EU will have the same trade deals as the rest o the EU. It won’t be negotiating its own, and Trump will not block US-EU trade because of Scotland.

    152. ahundredthidiot says:

      Not a Trump fan, but anyone still in shock about Clinton losing consider this one wee example.

      Clinton supporters, loads of em, in the arena, many campaigned for her, all of them been in the hall for hours, many of them in tears, all tired and in shock.

      Clinton sends Podesta out to send them home and goes to bed.

      Says it all really.

    153. Ken500 says:

      Trump’s migrant family. A puppet. The 1% have two years to change their mind. If Trump lasts that long.

    154. Desimond says:

      This does have extremely serious connotations for Indy2.

      We have now moved from Project Fear to Projects Fear…the World War style doomsday scenarios will be heavily painted to try and ensure the “best stick with what we have for now” folk retreat into their UK shell warm in the thought theres a UK Armed Forces ready to fall on command at home ( never happen but wont stop the imagery in media) and abroad – the map will no doubt soon run red out East.

      Its a no win sort of day all round.

    155. galamcennalath says:

      DerekM says:

      … we the independence minded people of Scotland are not going to change direction towards independence just because the SNP was bad.

      Still dont get it yoons do you

      Totally agree. Somethings are above party politics and personalities, and they really just don’t get that.

      While we focus on major constitutional change, their attention is preoccupied in trivia. And that will be their downfall.

      They have had umpteen opportunities to tackle the UK’s abysmal constitutional set up and have only made matters worse at each occasion.

    156. Dan Huil says:

      Trump likes Putin apparently. He won’t mind Scotland taking measures to improve Scotland’s relations with Russia.

    157. Luigi says:

      Breastplate says:

      9 November, 2016 at 10:12 am

      Why were all the polls so wrong is a question I would like answered.

      Because many “professional” pollsters think they know the answer before they ask the question, and then “weight” the raw results accordingly. They just can’t help themselves. I have seen many a respected scientist come to grief on this basic human weakness (delusion). Pure sampling bias – sometimes conscious, sometimes unconscious. The poor buggers still don’t know quite what hit them. Outside the cosy establishment/media bubble, i’ts obvious, but try telling those “know-it-all’s”. 🙂

    158. Breeks says:

      Hmmmm.

      The fifth horseman of the Apocalypse is obviously television. It’s done it’s job in the UK, and now the US, and primed another fuse for ignition.

      In Brexit, the U.K. electorate was promised a pack of lies, from £350 billion a week for the NHS to ongoing access to the EU’s free market. Aye, have no fear Britain, the Euros will do a deal…. And the UK immigrants trembled and suffered from abuse from bestial hatred rekindled by the folly of rolling all your stupidities into one bumper package; as if there is some redemption gained that you can exorcise the lot at once.

      In the US, the Amercians have been sold a similar pup. A booming revitalised economy, and a firm hand to throttle any turkey stupid enough to mess with Uncle Sam. And for a moment, the blacks pause their civil war with the trigger happy Police to watch white America declare war on its Muslims and Hispanics, and blaming all its ills on Syria in Mexico.

      Unlike Farage, who couldn’t leave the pool he pissed in quick enough, Trump is head down going for gold. Not just skin tone, but he plans to deliver the cure-all Dr Good elixir he’s promised the US electorate. Problem is, the how and the when he is going to do it was taken straight from the Brexit Handbook, and those pages are still under construction.

      I wouldn’t say I’m relaxed about Trumps foreign policy towards Islam. But apart from the blunt and overt acknowledgement of intent, I rather suspect there is no material change of actual US policy as it is currently delivered by drone strike already. Trump is on record as saying he hopes the US and Russia can combine forces to thrash ISIS, but is it stretching things to say that sounds uncannily similar to Hitler’s deluded presumption that the WW2 allies would drop their grievance with Nazism and turn their guns on Bolshevism?

      I have a sneaking suspicion the war that might unseat Mr Trump isn’t in the Middle East but the Deep South, where Latinos and blacks live cheek by jowl with white supremacists armed to the teeth and driving squad cars. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition y’all.

      War, Famine, Death and Pestilence, have you met TV? Of course you have..

    159. Anagach says:

      Oh well.

      Very disappointing.

      I thought Nicola’s message was very diplomatic, it did not hide or avoid her support for Hilary.

      The USA establishment could manage Trump well, or it could go off the rails. We shall see.

      My cultivated cynicism does not seem to be working anymore. I may have to turn to unwarranted optimism to get by.

    160. Breastplate says:

      The BBC now saying that Britain will be at the front of the queue now. That turnaround didn’t take long.

    161. Maybe the democrats will learn the lesson that in future not to select as their candidate most American’s dislike.

      As for vile Trump

    162. Phronesis says:

      America- no longer the land of the free unless one belongs to a certain income bracket and skin tone.

      Scotland however can be the home of the Brave. A shining beacon of democratic hope as it looks to its Nordic cousins and European family for support on the journey to self determination whilst the Brexiteers/Trumpeteers march on with sharpened their pitchforks / Glocks to bayonet/drop the hammer on those outside the 1%.

    163. Breastplate says:

      Luigi,
      I was sort of leaning more towards manipulation of the polls to suit an agenda which does not auger well for our independence polls if I’m right.
      Simply put Luigi, I don’t trust them as far as I can throw them but of course I may be wrong.

    164. Stephen Wilson says:

      Kaye Adams show does it again is one of their vetting questions are you going to diss Nicola on air “yes” then you go on…

    165. X_Sticks says:

      OK, so that’s the third horn sounded. Indyref, brexit and now Trump. The world is going to hell in a handcart. America has just handed the keys of the asylum to the chief lunatic.

      We now have an American president who will do everything in his power to destroy the SNP and prevent Scotland from achieving independence.

      I despair.

      I can see nothing hopeful on the horizon now. I think America will do well to avoid a civil war with such a xenophobic president in command.

      The right wing in Europe will be encouraged and when they take power (aided and abetted by the right wing press and media) the world will do well to avoid world war 3.

      I sincerely hope I’m wrong, but the world is in the worst place ever in my lifetime and there are frightening parallels with the 1930s.

      I also feel desperately sorry and worried about the poor folk in Balmedie who have been hounded and harassed by an American megalomaniac who has just been elected as the most powerful man in the world.

      Fuck. Fuck. Superfuck.

    166. Dan Huil says:

      @luigi 10:25am

      Exactly right. That’s why the people of Scotland will reject the britnat establishment and britnat media.

    167. Andrew McLean says:

      China still loves us apparently

      A Chinese company denied its multibillion-pound investment deal in Scotland had unraveled, saying it is still waiting for the Scottish government to advance the project, despite a “climate of hostility” in local politics.

      “I don’t think the deal is off … We are awaiting the Scottish side to build a work team for it,” Peter Zhang, managing director of SinoFortone Group, told the Global Times on Tuesday 8 December 2016.

      Zhang, together with representatives of China Railway No. 3 Engineering Group (CR3), signed a memorandum of understanding (MOU) worth up to 10 billion pounds ($124 billion) on March 21 with Scotland’s first minister Nicola Sturgeon, to invest in areas such as affordable housing, clean energy, high-speed railway and transport, the Xinhua News Agency reported. However, the UK-based Sunday Times reported Sunday that the deal had “collapsed” in August.

      Although little headway has been made in the past months, the Scottish government resumed frequent exchanges with SinoFortone Group this month, Zhang said, adding that no official notice about the cancellation has been issued.

      “Zhang said that concerns raised by the opponents of the deal were insignificant.”

      Yes insignificant that absolutely sums up the opposition, to that I may add incompetent and disloyal to our nation and its people.

      http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1016760.shtml

    168. Maybe the democrats will learn the lesson, that in future not to select as their candidate, someone most American’s dislike.

      Hopefully we will hear and see less of Hilary Clinton from now on, and let us not forget she was no friend of Scotland during the 2014 indy referendum.

      As for Trump, if he does what he claimed he would do if elected president, how will that heal and bring America together?

      And if he doesn’t do what he promised, how long will it be before he feels the backlash from those who voted for him.

    169. Breastplate says:

      Sorry Luigi, meant to say conscious manipulation as opposed to subconscious.

    170. Joemcg says:

      So 2 anti establishment votes now. Factor in scots rebellious nature and the 2014 vote stinks to high heaven.

    171. Robert Peffers says:

      @dakk says: 9 November, 2016 at 9:30 am:

      ” … Perhaps if SNP called out the BBC and the Yoon enemies of Scotland in such a manner we too could prevail.”

      Aye!
      Richt!

      Why are the present newer supporters of Scottish independence both impatient and unwilling to learn from the, hard won, experiences of the past?

      We old hands tried all that many decades ago. There was even militant and paramilitary factions in the party back then. The SNLA and even, “siol-nan-gaidheal”, were active within the SNP. They had to be expelled.

      All that such attacks, be they on the Westminster Establishment or upon the MSM, got us was marginalised as nutters, extremists and largely ignored.

      It was a hard lesson to learn and retaliation from the Westminster Establishment results in things like the imprisonment of Arthur Donaldson. This on no other evidence than someone walking into an MI5 office and claiming Donaldson was a NAZI supporter and had a cache of weapons in his home. Donaldson was subsequently freed without charge and no evidence has ever been produced.

      Then we had the political assassination of Willie MacRae. A matter the police and authorities have always deigned any involvement in but have also point-blank refused to hold an enquiry about.

      Contrast all that with the way independence is gaining public support now and it probably is now ahead of the Unionist support in Scotland today. Whatever else it does, the SNP’s tactics are working and only fools would attempt to return to the days when attack saw we activists looked upon as out and out nutters.

      Remember the constant media and general public claims of, “Tartan Tories”?.

      Never try and sort what which is not broken.

    172. mogabee says:

      Called it right again Stu.

      Not sure if I feel much of anything yet until we see “What the hell is going on”! To borrow a phrase from The Donald…

      I suppose the one emotion initially was relief at Clinton not getting what she regarded as her “rightful place”. I feared her governance more.

      The world has to hope that Trump will go some way to helping the disenfranchised who voted for him with some of his promises.

      After all, an angry disappointed electorate with access to guns is also a scary thought!

      Still, definitely living in interesting times.

    173. Luigi says:

      Breastplate says:

      9 November, 2016 at 10:41 am

      Sorry Luigi, meant to say conscious manipulation as opposed to subconscious.

      Most pollsters suffer from a heavy dose of self delusion, with a sprinkling of (attempted) public opinion manipulation IMO.

    174. Chris Baxter says:

      Very little will change. Trump’s mostly bluster. America will drift a bit further to the right, most people will get a bit poorer, but that’s about it. His rhetoric is silly, but he’ll toe the line.

      Obama wasn’t the hope many thought he’d be (for a variety of reasons), and the same will be the case for Trump (for different reasons).

      “Most Powerful Person in the World”. Bullshit.

    175. Andrew McLean says:

      https://archive.is/FFfRQ

      for those who don’t like live links.

      Scottish Government deal with China is on.

    176. Breastplate says:

      *Augur

    177. Flower of Scotland says:

      I’m not at all surprised at Trump,s election. Lots of America,s people are fed up with the establishment.

      After the Democrats got rid of Bernie Sanders, I thought this might happen.

      Sometimes people just have to give the establishment a good kicking.

      Always remember that every single day of Obama,s Presidency is dedicated to war!

      Let’s get back to striving for Scottish Indy.

      The media and pollsters are again left saying, What! They got a kicking too!

    178. Macart says:

      @schrodingers cat

      ‘I wonder if we will see a sharp rise in race crime in the us as we did in england after the brexit vote

      I have my fears SC. This presidency may embolden such attitudes big time. If we thought the rise since the Brexit result in the UK was bad, the fallout from this may be considerably more troubling.

    179. Ken500 says:

      Trump does not have a vote in Scotland. He has invested £Millions in Scotland. Scottish Law governs Scotland.

      Trump did not win a majority. Won by 1%. The 1% have two years+ to change their mind.

      The US has the highest debt in the world. $Trillions.

    180. rongorongo says:

      Similarly, everything we thought we knew about campaigning was apparently in error. Conventions? Don’t matter. Debates? Don’t matter. Endorsements? Don’t matter. High-profile defections? Don’t matter. Missteps? Don’t matter? Commercials? Don’t matter. Ground game? Doesn’t matter. An All-Star team of campaign surrogates, including one former president, one sitting president, and a wildly popular first lady? Doesn’t matter. The “blue wall”? Not a thing.

      From Elecoral vote’s interesting post mortem.

    181. Breastplate says:

      I wouldn’t disagree Luigi, I’m guessing their self delusion would also err on the side of The Establishment.

    182. Desimond says:

      Some train of thought was the plan would be get Hillary in for 4 years then ease Michelle Obama back into the White House. Looks like that’s never gonna happen now unless the country takes a major conscious swing back.

      As for folk berating Nicola Sturgeon for giving an honest answer to a question posed by the Media on who she wanted to win th US Election…well..If you are wanting an evasive FM who plays the “Oh I’m on the fence” card and commits to saying nothing of any worth and eventually silences themselves into stupor, then youre more than welcome to your future living with your head under the covers here in a Scotland where the rest of us believe opinions matter and being able to express them should matter too regardless of outcomes.

    183. Proud Cybernat says:

      Trump might want to keep in mind that if he pushes the political establishment of America in directions and places they do not want America to go, they will get shot of him. It’s happened before.

    184. sinky says:

      Andrew McLean says at 10:52 am

      https://archive.is/FFfRQ

      Scottish Government deal with China is on.

      Trust BBC / STV / press will run with this but won’t hold my breath.

    185. Proud Cybernat says:

      “Scottish Government deal with China is on.”

      Cue faux outrage (again) from the Howling Yoons.

    186. heedtracker says:

      Not good to offend other nations as they have just done with China.
      Feel independence is beginning to recede.

      President Trump has ofcourse just became one of the loudest and heaviest hitting NO foreign campers and will be used in all its far right glory by our tory BBC led media. It doesn’t take much imagination to picture Project Fear 2 banner headlines.

      But Scotland’s progress to self determination is always going to have seemingly insurmountable neo con and toryboy barriers like Trump.

    187. Stu Mac says:

      @G H Graham
      ==============

      “Mass biased LEFT WING media in the USA”???

      That is a sick joke. There are two political wings in the USA, the right wing and the extreme right wing. The traditional media may be socially leftish (pro-gay, anti-discrimination) but economically and every other way they are right wing. The no traditional media, shock jock radio and Fox News are rabidly right wing.

    188. Dr Jim says:

      It’s still all Nicola Sturgeons fault apparently, so not much has changed

      Phew! What a relief

    189. The Bathgate Seer,

      any predictions for Fridays game?

    190. Legerwood says:

      Desimond @ 10.59

      Well said. Could not agree more.

    191. liz says:

      I could see it coming as well.

      It’s like Brexit & to a lesser extent Scotland voting SNP,

      The plebs are pissed off at the elite, USA is impoverished, high unemployment etc whilst they spends billions on ‘defence’ which should be called offence.

      No-one is saying it’s logical but it is the middle finger.

      Our politicos should not have been taking sides, if there’s one thing folk hate it’s being told what to do

    192. Andrew McLean says:

      According to 95% of the press, and ALL opposition parties

      China MOU on, SNP BAD
      China MOU off, SNP BAD
      China MOU on, SNP BAD
      Actually anything in the world SNP BAD.

      Don’t you just love living in a one news state!

    193. Pete says:

      Luigi
      Best post on here today.
      Absolutely correct.
      In addition, when asked their opinion, lots of people give the answer they think is the okay thing to say I.e. The sheeplike effect
      Scratch under the surface, and you will find ordinary people ( the guy who goes to the football every Saturday and the woman who meets her friends every week ) much more right wing than the so called experts believe. In other words there’s a little of the KKK in all of us. It’s called tribalism and that includes us in the Indy movement.
      Politicians and political anoraks including a lot of wingers live in a bubble and swallow all the liberal claptrap currently expounded.
      Take the SNP, what have they actually done?
      Gay marriage
      About to increase local and national taxes designed to hit the aspirational.
      Mad climate change policies.
      The only reason I vote SNP is as a means to independence but it’s becoming harder by the day.
      The only glimmer of hope is that people like Neil and Sillars will come to the fore and they get a proper leader who will stop moaning about everything the UK government does.
      This is NOT going well for independence.

    194. Ken500 says:

      Scotland trades £Billions with China. Alexander’s of Falkirk has a £2Billion+ contract for electric buses. China can’t get enough of Whisky, Salmon, tartan, tourism etc. £Billions. There were talks of direct flights. Alex Salmond has been to China.

      China – ‘Scotland the land of Invention’. When the Chinese Premier came to the UK. He came to Scotland first (because he wanted to).

      – ‘Britain a small island without Empire’.

    195. Dan Huil says:

      It’s all further proof the establishment order is crumbling away. Likewise the so-called united kingdom is crumbling. It’s all going one way for us in Scotland: independence.

    196. Clydebuilt says:

      What about Clinton the hawkish War Monger…… People on both sides of the Atlantic are pished off with the Endkess War dished up by established political class……

      So the choice was between a guy who likes to pinch nice Ladies bahookies, build a wall to create
      Employment…..and a female candidate who wants to create WW3…..

    197. schrodingers cat says:

      trump will return to scotland to visit his golf course, will nicola meet him off the plane?

    198. schrodingers cat says:

      lol

      Damn’ Rebel-Bitch ?@Damn_RebelBitch 24m24 minutes ago

      “A white man in the White House”….aye right! The last time I looked #trump was fcking ‘orange’!!! #ElectionNight

    199. galamcennalath says:

      Sydney Morning Herald

      “The markets tell us President Trump is worse than Brexit”

      http://www.smh.com.au/business/world-business/the-markets-tell-us-president-trump-is-worse-than-brexit-20161109-gslt0q.html

      The article does point out that Brexit hasnt happened, and may not, while Trump has actually happened!

    200. Proud Cybernat says:

      “The only reason I vote SNP is as a means to independence but it’s becoming harder by the day.”

      Aye, sure you do.

      Listen laddie–we know how yoon ‘concern trolls’ operate here. Away and learn why the people on this site and in the wider country wish Scotland to fully regain its sovereignty. Maybe when you open your eyes and understand this, you might REALLY vote for indy.

    201. Dr Jim says:

      America is so over democratised for good reason and it’s not to help folks have their say but to prevent that occurring and it applies to it’s President too
      America over time has designed it’s democracy so that the people get a wee referendum every now and then on who they think is going to run stuff when really nothing could be further from the truth

      The people who run America are the people nobody ever sees just the same as Westminster
      Democracy is a show for the peasants, a night at the opera then folk think they got what they voted for, or against

      No country who pretends to have a democratic process can have one person in charge of anything, therein lies madness and anarchy

      Democracy is what we say it is, and the people who really are in power will make damn sure as many people as possible think the opposite and they work hard to convince us of that
      No matter what happens the same people will have you by the throat until you die and even make money on that

      It’s only business, nothing personal

    202. Dan Huil says:

      @Proud Cybernat 11:22am

      Spot on, Proud Cybernat. The yoons are getting more and more desperate.

    203. Breeks says:

      Some light relief:

      https://archive.is/HkMWu

      Perhaps someone should do the same for Boris Johnson.

      Light relief if you forget the man is now President of the USA that is…

    204. Andrew McLean says:

      Pete says:
      Gay Marriage, it’s becoming harder by the day?.

      Oh Pete not one single person on here believes you are an Independence supporter.

      A troll, yes 100%

    205. Dr Jim says:

      There are folk who troll for no other reason other than they can, they have no real purpose or position except to be obnoxious or disruptive and gnaw away at peoples hopes from the lowest level

      Termites do it too

    206. One_Scot says:

      ‘This is NOT going well for independence.’

      The only person your fooling is yourself, and I’m not even sure your doing a good job of that. Lol.

    207. galamcennalath says:

      Some very depressing thoughts from Peter Arnott …

      http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2016/11/09/trump-as-spasm-of-self-harm/

      To repeat the title above PLEASE BE WRONG

    208. Dorothy Devine says:

      I am looking forward to fewer Westminster /Washington wars .

      I am looking forward to Scottish independence before I pop my clogs so that I can depart this earth knowing that the children and grandchildren of Scotland will live in an even better place .

      I am utterly sick and tired of the drivelling media and their cohorts below the line who spread despondency and lies.

      None have crystal balls , none can see the future but there are certain obvious stupidities that give us all clues – I am thinking of Mr Fallon and his readiness for war with Russia and I am wondering if his gas has been put down a peep by losing Mrs Clinton as potus.

    209. Andrew McLean says:

      schrodingers cat says:11:15 am
      “trump will return to Scotland to visit his golf course, will Nicola meet him off the plane?”

      Yes absolutely, and they will smile and wave too.

      Realpolitik, like.

    210. Glamaig says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      9 November, 2016 at 11:15 am
      trump will return to scotland to visit his golf course, will nicola meet him off the plane?

      Hmm awkward. But how is Trump going to have time to run his business AND be president?

    211. Eckle Fechan says:

      Such a disturbing outcome.

      Trump is still a candidate – for assassination. If he makes it to inauguration day, it could be within a year.

    212. Artyhetty says:

      Certainly no cause for celebration today. As much as Hillary has little integrity, (to say the least) Trump is an out and out sexist, racist, anti gay, anti foreigner, turd. He is absolutely no friend of Scotland, Clinton would not have been either, but he will have a grudge and it will not be pretty.

      If the US want to get rid of a country’s democratically elected government, for whatever reason, they will. Trump will support the tories, in which ever way he can in Scotland.

      If we are not independent before the next general election, and the next Scottish election, I for one will be getting the hell out of the yookay.

    213. Another Union Dividend says:

      Andrew McLean says at 10:52 am

      https://archive.is/FFfRQ

      Scottish Government deal with China is on.

      Sinky says: Trust BBC / STV / press will run with this but won’t hold my breath.

      Hopefully someone will send the link above to Michael Glackin at Sunday Times who after his four article slaughtering of the SNP will have the integrity to print a correcting article this Sunday.

      Oh wait he’s just another yoon.

    214. John H. says:

      James O’Brien on LBC about an hour ago. Barack Obama, the first American black president, is leaving office to be replaced by Donald Trump, the first American president to be endorsed by the ku klux klan. 🙁

    215. Breastplate says:

      Pete,
      On a philosophical note I would have to resign myself to the fact we will have our fair share of nutters but nevertheless would be pleased that at least one of them will be willing to vote for an independent Scotland.

    216. heedtracker says:

      Hmm awkward. But how is Trump going to have time to run his business AND be president?

      Trump’s a huge admirer of the NHS here in the UK zone. He says its much efficient use of resources and accessible to everyone. Will he bring in a USA NHS, will they let him? A US version of the GP expects to earn $1.5+ million a year.

      Also, he wants huge tariffs of US companies like Ford, who essentially make products in slave wage countries and sell them in the US and Canada.

      Its not like much of the US isn’t looking at the how and why of neo con economics. One independent candidate wants to scrap the US $1.6 trillion student fees debt bill. US GDP is around $19 trillion. Where does the money go?

      Meanwhile, here in the Scottish region of greater England, SLab twerps are howling at Scots electorate for £9k a year student fees for Scottish students.

      There’s a lot to learn from Pres Trump and the Brexiteers out there.

    217. Breastplate says:

      Glamaig, don’t forget his dastardly plan to destroy Scotland.

    218. Artyhetty says:

      Glamaig@11.35

      These people don’t run their own businesses, they have slaves do it for them. In fact they have slaves doing everything for them, including wiping their big fat arses. (ew sorry that is a tad too much to ever imagine)

      Seriously think trump will be less than friendly towards Scotland while we have an SNP led government. The world has just become an even more dangerous place to be, for everyone.

    219. Iain MacLachlan says:

      Eckle Fechan says:
      9 November, 2016 at 11:35 am
      Such a disturbing outcome.

      Trump is still a candidate – for assassination. If he makes it to inauguration day, it could be within a year.

      That is a horrible thing to say and not worthy of a Scot.

    220. Dan Huil says:

      If a Trump presidency wants to be nasty to Scotland… good. If there’s one thing we thrawn Scots like it’s telling an arrogant and ignorant fat-arse bully to f-off.

    221. One_Scot says:

      Yeah, I can just see it now.

      ‘Mr. President, given you have unlimited power and resources, what’s the most important thing you what to achieve being the most powerful leader on the planet, word peace? prosperity for all Americans? or get one over those pesky Scots.’ Lol.

    222. Andrew McLean says:

      To anyone who says that american politics is now brutal, I give you John Adams the 2 American President who called Alexander Hamilton a “bastard brat” whose “superabundance of secretions he couldn’t find enough whores to absorb!”

    223. Glamaig says:

      I think Ive suddenly become more open to the idea of closer European integration.

    224. DerekM says:

      och Trump is no politician he is a business man his politics revolve around getting a good deal,so maybe we should ask him to back indy and we will take down the windmills and let him in on the black stuff the UK hides away.

      A man like him will change his stance if he can smell a good deal he will also be ruthless in pursuit of it.

      Maybe we should talk business with him not politics.

    225. I don’t see that the result makes any difference to our movement towards independence

    226. schrodingers cat says:

      Desimond

      its easy to say what you think if you are not in power, see davidson and harveys latest tweets

      but for those in power, diplomacy is usually the better option…. careless talk costs lives etc

      obama will escort trump through the whitehouse for his inauguration, not because he likes kkk supporters, but because it is the diplomatic thing to do,

    227. Hamish100 says:

      I fear for Mrs May and HM Queenie being left alone in a room with that guy.

    228. Artyhetty says:

      Re;desimond@10.17

      Also the sinister move by WM to remove 8(?) army bases from Scotland. We do not have our own defence force, or MOD, so that will look like we are utterly defenceless to the feart soft no voters.

      It stinks to high heaven and is obviously going to be part of project fears’ ploy. I heard that if the Germans had invaded Scotland during WW2, that our friends in england were not going come to Scotland’s rescue. Not surprising and it would happen again. Scotland is not protected militarily, and much as we are not a target, for project fear, we can be made a target.

      Hate war, war mongering goverments, but we are at the mercy of england, and er with those wmd’s just down the road, anyone would think it might be handy to have a few feet on the ground nearby, just in case.

      So, we have few if any army bases, no navy to speak of, but some massively dangerous, lethal UKOK, US fckg weapons parked a few miles from our most populated areas. FFS.

    229. Ken500 says:

      10% of US voters is of Scottish descent. Including Trump. Trump got 1% more. A few thousand votes. Scotland has close ties to the US, including in the Congress/Senate. Many support Scotland/Independence. Irish Republic has an Irish lobby in Congress/Senate. Does trade deals with Irish Republic.

    230. schrodingers cat says:

      it is said that we lost indyref1 because we lost the economic argument

      trump will visit scotland, even a casual comment by him about blocking trade to an independent scotland, whether he can or not, will be front page news thoughout the indyref2 campaign,

      they spun even the most innocuous comments by obama and the pope regarding an indy scotland,

      they will do so again.

      the #snpbad regarding trump has already started

      eitherway, its immaterial now, we didnt elect trump, we just need to handle any crap that comes our way.

      but it is a bullet i would rather have dodged

    231. desimond says:

      Glamaig

      Trump and his businesses is another interesting issue…Presidents have placed any business holdings and activities into a Blind Trust to which they return after exiting office. Well in the past at least.

      Trump has said his son and daughter will run his business affairs and they sees no area of possible compromise as he will be working in the White House and not working on their business.

      Hmmm!!

    232. Glamaig says:

      Artyhetty says:
      9 November, 2016 at 12:09 pm
      Re;desimond@10.17

      Also the sinister move by WM to remove 8(?) army bases from Scotland. We do not have our own defence force, or MOD, so that will look like we are utterly defenceless to the feart soft no voters.

      I think I prefer this to them moving more military up here! Anyway less forces people and their families might mean less no votes.

    233. Stoker says:

      G H Graham (@ 9:32am)

      I’m with you 100% on that. Not very often she gets it wrong but she did on this occasion, not the outcome but being drawn into expressing her preference on the outcome of another country’s democratic process.

      As you say, she needs to be a wee bit more savvy on that front and you can put money on it that certain BUM quarters will use it against her. Mind you, they’ll do that whether she kept her mouth shut or not.

      Only twice, imo, Nicola has ever been wrong. Once before she became First Minister she voiced the opinion that we shouldn’t bother about the BBC etc, or words along those lines. And when she expressed that preference on the US Presidential outcome.

      Still, for a wee wummin, she’s head and shoulders above any alternative we have in this country of ours and that’s good enough for me. She gets my vote each and every time.

    234. Ken500 says:

      10% of US voters are of Scottish descent. Including Trump. Trump got 1% more of the vote, who can change their mind in two years. Scotland has close ties with the US who support Scotland/Independence. Scotland has close ties in Congress. The Irish has a lobbying group in Congress/Senate which brings trade/deals to Ireland.

    235. Brian Powell says:

      Interesting, Putin ready to restore relations with US in response to hearing Trump was Pres elect,, but wee UK has been ramping up ‘Russia a threat’ rhetoric in bid to divert attention from Berxit etc.

      Dimwit Michael Fallon even giving a time table when we could go to war with Russia (more empty headed witless rhetoric).

    236. heedtracker says:

      Ken500 says:
      9 November, 2016 at 12:10 pm
      10% of US voters is of Scottish descent. Including Trump.

      There’s over 50 million German descent Americans. Biggest UK potential influence Pres Trump has is with and for UKIPers, shire tories, climate change deniers, dying out SLabour and ofcourse vote NO Scots, or just the usual old school tory roasters that hate everything and everyone.

      Obama was pretty much ghosted by tory BBC in particular from the moment he won but we are about to get Pres Trump rammed down our throats for the next five tory years.

    237. Ken500 says:

      Trump will have to release his tax details. That 1% is a close call.

    238. desimond says:

      schrodingers cat

      I can appreciate the real world politik etc..but when a member of the National Press asks the First Minister a question that merits an answer, I will take the honest answer over the fudge every time. Once you step over that line, there is no going back.

      Also remember that if you would rather Nicola Sturgeon had said some empty rhetoric such as “Im sure the Americans are wise enough to make their own decisions without my help” then it would have been spun to show her not backing whoever won regardless.

      The Political Dark Art of Compromising Truth is what has got us all into this state in the first place. Even now when folk such as The Rev highlights lies, ignorance and inaccurate facts, the heads stay in the sand as its just safer now in many peoples minds to have no opinion, right or wrong.

      Sad Times all round.

    239. Grouse Beater says:

      A classic in the making – Buchan Observer headline:

      Aberdeen business Owner Wins Presidential Election”

    240. schrodingers cat says:

      i hope eric is right

      ericjoyce.co.uk/2016/11/trump-and-brexit-have-destroyed-the-economic-case-against-independence/

    241. Tinto Chiel says:

      Legerwood @9.29.

      Don’t know about him predicting Clintorecentlybut he wrote piece about a couple of months ago giving 5 reasons why Trump wld. win. Only got my phone the noo so can’t use laptop favourites. To give source.

    242. izzie says:

      Mickey Mouse for 2020

    243. Brian Powell says:

      SLab twisting over the golf courses and Trump. They wanted to blame Alex Salmond for being too friendly and the SG for giving the go ahead in Aberdeenshire.

      Now sniping at N Sturgeon for not wanting Trump as Pres.

    244. Bob Mack says:

      Mr Salmon in an interview on Sky just now admitting he is disappointed with the result. He also took pains to say that Trump will be challenged by the Presidency and could react if things do not go his way re International or domestic issues.

      You have been warned.

      I also heard he offered a conciliatory tone towards Clinton in his speech. Then again remember Theresa May stating she would work for the ordinary man.
      Politicians eh ?

    245. heedtracker says:

      Grouse Beater says:
      9 November, 2016 at 12:29 pm
      A classic in the making – Buchan Observer headline:

      “Aberdeen business Owner Wins Presidential Election”

      It should be “Aberdeen failed business Owner…” as Trump Golf at Balmedie looks very shaky to bust. Or at least its way behind Pres Trump’s 6000 thousand jobs and billion quid investment sales pitch schedules.

      A weird copy of that clock in the middle of Central station NY, NY, at the main road gate of Trump Golf on the way to Peterhead, a few guys in peek caps chasing a dog that’s just pooped on the Trump golf fairway, or don’t believe the Trump hype.

      http://www.wikiwand.com/sv/Grand_Central_Terminal

    246. Andrew McLean says:

      Is Wings over Scotland asking for the source of a story first broken on Wings over Scotland?

      Some mistake surely?

    247. heedtracker says:

      Just tuned in for lunchtime BBC Politics show on this auspicious day but they’re off the air. Also, very weird.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mjxb

      Instead they’re showing A Distant Trumpet. 12:10 PM – 2:05 PM

      No its not Jim Naughty.

    248. Hamish100 says:

      Maybe it is only in my minds eye (rather than an actual cartoon) of the Statue of Liberty suitcase in hand turning around and heading out to sea escorted by some immigration officer toting several guns to proof how free the USA is.

    249. Smallaxe says:

      Andrew McLean:

      I’ve told you before Andrew.Don’t call me Shirley 🙂

      Peace Always

    250. Glamaig says:

      heedtracker says:
      9 November, 2016 at 12:50 pm
      Just tuned in for lunchtime BBC Politics show on this auspicious day but they’re off the air. Also, very weird.

      BBC R4 crew sounded like they were having a nervous breakdown this morning. Or maybe just sleep deprived.

    251. Tam Jardine says:

      Some speculation here on Trump’s attitude to Scotland in the future. I get he was against independence- what his attitude will be in the future is anyone’s guess and I expect will depend more on his relationship with Westminster.

      I don’t imagine he will be thinking too much about it for the time being.

      You can’t extrapolate anything with this guy so I would be wary of assuming he will have some kind of score to settle. Despite his obvious flaws and his issues with the SNP and his opposition to Scottish Independence I don’t think we should be looking for a fight.

      The new president is very proud of his Scottish roots – once the disbelief has subsided, like it or not we are going to have to develop a working relationship with Trump moving forward.

      I am tremendously dismayed at the result but we have to look at how to make this situation work for us. The USA is not our enemy- it is one of our largest export markets. How can we win out of this (or how can we at least not lose)?

      …. just reread what I have written and still can’t believe we are where we are. But we are.

    252. Betty Boop says:

      @ mike cassidy, 5:10am

      Brilliant, Mike.

      I couldn’t be bothered watching the car crash results programmes; I thought the result was in the bag for Trump as H Clinton was a very uninspiring candidate. Truly, two awful candidates, with incredible amounts of baggage, to foist upon the world and I honestly don’t know which one is worse.

      For all the betting folks, remember to check McTernan before placing your money.

    253. Effijy says:

      Is anyone keeping count?
      How many times has Dippy Dugdale and
      Manic McTernan supported the losing side?

      They could maybe make a living on income
      From politicians who would pay them to support
      the other side.

      Only Labour could give those two a job. lol

    254. Andrew McLean says:

      Smallaxe,
      Hope you are well and keeping away from that big building with patients!

      Anyway over in America Ladies and gentlemen, this is your congress speaking… We regret any inconvenience the sudden president movement might have caused, this is due to periodic stupidity we encountered, there’s no reason to become alarmed, and we hope you enjoy the rest of your day… By the way, is there anyone here who knows how to run the US of A?

      🙂

    255. heedtracker says:

      Glamaig

      BBC R4 crew sounded like they were having a nervous breakdown this morning. Or maybe just sleep deprived.

      Me too, radio toryboy knicker wetting. Doesn’t explain why their lunchtime BBC Politics daily broadcast on behalf of planet toryboy is off the air til next week.

      Ligger Neil was usual huff n puff toryboy BBC style last night in NY but maybe side kick Jo needs to rest her SNP bad smirk.

      Devil’s in the tory detail.

      Watched Ligger last night grill Trump voting ex CIA boss, NATO, Putin etc. It was ok but Ligger says to CIA guy, “And Russia did help us defeat the Nazi’s…”

      Its a toryboy world but its a world not exactly based on reality, passed and present.

    256. Juteman says:

      The folk in charge aren’t stupid. They probably saw that the plebs would start to revolt against the elite eventually. UKIP was set up, so that it would be a right wing party that the working class voters flocked to in protest.
      In the US, the same tactic was used. Saunders was despatched from the Democrats, to make sure it would be a right wing, anti elite candidate that working class voters chose as their protest vote.

    257. Richardinho says:

      I really don’t get these people who say that Clinton and Trump were both as bad as each other. The reality is that the Republican party now have control over all three arms of government, and pretty soon also the Supreme court. Basically they will be able to act without any kind of restraint at all. It doesn’t bear thinking about.

    258. Chic McGregor says:

      With control in Congress, the Senate he must be tempted to rename New York to Trumpton in a fit of pique. 🙂

    259. David Arnott says:

      Sorry but you have to b a misinformed idiot to have wished for a Clinton victory.

      Is Trump anything more than an egomaniac and an asshole? No.

      But anybody who thinks we didnt get lucky by avoiding a Clinton presidency is frankly living on another planet. Or maybe they are given they dont figure that a U.S presidential candidate so utterly hostile to Russia isnt a bad thing?

      The fact that Sturgeon endorsed Hillary (I suppose women are allowed to choose based on genitalia and it not be sexist) means i will not support the SNP while she is at the helm. The lack of judgement in that move is astounding.

      If this is the sentiment in Scotland now then maybe its best we didnt get independence since we lack the most basic common sense.

    260. Grouse Beater says:

      Heedtracker: “It should be “Aberdeen failed business Owner…” as Trump Golf at Balmedie looks very shaky.”

      It’s a truism of politics securing high office secures a fat bank account … no president has ever been the poorer for assuming that elevated office.

    261. desimond says:

      David Arnott

      Thank you…made me smile on such a sad day.

      You can go back under the bridge now.

    262. Andrew McLean says:

      Scottish opposition parties continue to obstruct commercial deals?
      surely not the Chinese government criticising a buffalo rider?

      “the investment environment in Scotland has yet to fully reflect a possible independence referendum, but is still healthy, ~ “because of Scotland’s possible inclusion in the EU”

      “The opposition parties may simply aim to frustrate the deal which would allow the Scottish National Party-led government to seek less economic support from the UK government,”

      What the fuck has been going on? what have the opposition parties been up to, why is the Chinese government openly calling them out?

      Kezia, Dugdale & Rennie, what have you arseholes been doing!!!

    263. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Arnut

      “If this is the sentiment in Scotland now then maybe its best we didnt get independence since we lack the most basic common sense.”

      What you talking about, you troll? YOU NEVER WANTED INDEPENDENCE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

      Now–back under the bridge you go with your BritNat shades.

    264. Andrew McLean says:

      David Arnott 1:17

      As we are both male I assume, this isn’t sexist either, you are a fucking arsehole!

    265. Grouse Beater says:

      Desimond: “If this is the sentiment in Scotland now then maybe its best we didnt get independence since we lack the most basic common sense.”

      You know where you can flush your amateurism and cant.

    266. heedtracker says:

      Grouse Beater says:

      Its worth seeing Trump golf at Balmedie though. Its a gorgeous part of Scotland, but Trump golf looks very temporary, like a film set maybe. His planned 6000 house estate is looking even shakier as there is a housing boom going very boom in and around Aberdeen.

      But as we know, the oil industry isn’t exactly booming, despite being looked after so well and as promised by Project Fear 2014. It will come back but not like it used to as it is very mature now and its hard for a mature industry, that’s been bled white, to boom back.

      Rancid The Graun augurs the coming vote Pres Trump vote NO shit storm heading our way.

      Incoming…

      http://archive.is/CUhyd

      “Donald Trump: second Scottish independence vote would be ‘crazy’
      US Republican candidate believes Scotland is better being part of the United Kingdom”

    267. Desimond says:

      Grouse Beater
      I beg your pardon?

      I didn’t post that..I laughed at the posting

    268. Smallaxe says:

      David Arnott 1:17:” we lack the most basic common sense”

      I take it that is the royal WE!

      Peace Always ALWAYS

    269. David Arnott says:

      @ Proudcybernat

      Been a Scottish independence supporter my entire life.

      What im seeing however is the politics of independence being clouded by nonsense.

      On the trump issue i repeat – he is a total a$$hole. But anybody who thinks clinton is preferable simply doesnt know the facts, her history and track record. She represents a miltiary industrial complex, banks and the most corrupt establishment.

      For me peace with Russia is the most important issue (should have been for anybody that doesnt hope for mushroom clouds) and Clinton was NEVER going to be the candidate for that and even the most left-wing retards out of you lot cant deny that.

      Again, misinformed lefty twats.

    270. Ken500 says:

      11WW Russia saved the West. Russia made the biggest sacrifice in Europe. 26Million Russians died. 1 in 6 of the population. 1/2Million British, 1/2Million French. 2million (bigger pop) Americans.
      Russia was devastated.

      It could help if US/UK and France stopped bombing the Middle East to bits and funding terrorism. Destroying the world economy. UK/US have the biggest debt levels in the world and the most inequality (pro rata).

      The US administration (power) wanted the UK to stay in EU.

    271. ronnie anderson says:

      Some thoughts this morning on “The Donald”.

      The Donald says that he’ll build a wall,
      He’ll build it high, he’ll build it tall.
      To keep out the things he doesn’t want to hear,
      To build in the hatred, to build in the fear.

      The Donald says that some people no longer fit,
      The Donald says that he’ll make them quit.
      The Donald’s going to throw them out,
      The Donald hates what they’re all about.

      The Donald says ’cause their skin is brown,
      The Donald doesn’t want any of them around.
      They steal his money, they molest his women,
      Could it be the Donald doesn’t like the competition?

      The Donald points the finger of blame,
      The Donald ignites the bigots flame.
      The Donald gives voice to those extreme,
      Who would exclude so many from Americas dream.

      Let’s make sure the message the Donald spreads,
      Doesn’t take root in other empty heads.
      Let’s stand up for the truth and shine a light,
      And tell the world, “The Donald talks a load of shite”.

      Wullie Tracey 2016.

    272. HandandShrimp says:

      The moment McTernan predicted a Hillary win my blood ran cold.

      There is certain horrid fascination in watching what the US electorate have done but I can’t see it ending well for the very people that put their trust in Donald. The rich (elite) will do just fine…Donald is not going to crap in his own nest.

      The US and the World will stumble on.

    273. HandandShrimp says:

      David

      No one is saying that Hillary was a great choice but in a straight run off between someone competent vs someone off the wall it is a no brainer. Hillary would not have secured Senate and Congress support for such a war even if she was contemplating it (which I doubt). Trump is more likely to start a war simply by grabbing some female dignitary inappropriately. Nicola may have preferred Hillary because she was not a serial racist and misogynist. Having umpteen women claim he assaulted them is not exactly an endorsement is it?

      Bernie was the better choice but the Democrats played safe. The US population may now wish they had done the same at their leisure.

    274. Ken500 says:

      The Trump development was given permission to build 500 houses. To mitigate the cost of building the Golf Course, (2) Hotel and time shares. The planning permission has now receded.

      There are reports that new planning permission is to be sort for 800 houses. That will not be given until the former plans are honoured. The Council will see to that, if it breaks planning Laws. There is a Golf course, a club house and a renovated estate house as a Hotel. It is managed by the wife of the EE editor.

      Golf tourism in Scotland has doubled.

      Vote SNP/SNP May 2017. Vote for Independence.

    275. heedtracker says:

      The US and the World will stumble on.

      When shag monster Bill Clinton lost to Bush and Cheney, he was going around being reassuring, “don’t worry, we’ll be fine.”

      It doesn’t bear thinking about how many people have died because Republican Bush/Cheney and Labour Blair/Brown etc took the reins of world power.

      Maybe a million people dead in the middle east, endless civil war in the middle east, millions of refugees flowing into Europe from the war zones, Russian militarisation heading for a Putin showdown that could end in nuclear war.

      You can do this all day. Bush, Cheney, Blair, Brown, all should be in jail for war crimes against humanity and all are no different from Trump’s new version of the GOP.

    276. Breeks says:

      Some ignorant Scottish fud on Radio 2 just saying Brexit was blame Europe, Trump was blame the Mexicans, and YES2014 was blame the English.

      It would make you weep so it would, the number of uncle Tams we have amongst us. They are really beginning to turn my stomach. They wouldn’t know truth from salt in their porridge.

    277. ScottishPsyche says:

      The great and the good of MSM and Yoon social media all trying to wag their finger and say ‘See Scotland, that could have been us’ in their attempts to conflate Independence with Brexit and Trumpism. Poor old Leasky is absolutely demented with rage and in his confusion seems to think someone must remove cybernats from the internet (because of Trump?) but that he cannot do it because he doesn’t have time.

      Unfortunately, every other movement seems to be benefitting from showing up the hypocrisy of MSM and neo-liberalism EXCEPT Scottish Independence. It soothes the mewling Muriels to think ‘thing could have been even worse’ and so it goes on.

    278. Clootie says:

      It was never an easy choice for Americans but Trump!
      …and the World moves closer to a cliff edge.

    279. Valerie says:

      Alex Salmond was good commenting on Sky.

      As he says, Trump is nice as ninepence, when it’s all going his way, the real test is what happens when there are roadblocks.

      I keep seeing the parallel to Brexit here, no coincidence that Trump was delighted Farage went over, and Le Pen is jubilant today. Expect Farage to tour Europe stirring as he goes what a way to live.

      As Rev says, this is all down to Clinton being the one person that Trump could beat. I think Clinton is a horror show, and that’s before you look into her past year’s with her husband.

      Harvie has come out with some vitriolic response, saying Trump is not welcome here. That’s easy to say when you are not in power. The reality is, leaders will have to find some way of dealing with him.

    280. Ken500 says:

      Trump has a Golf Course at Turnberry.

      Trump is Brexiteers worse nightmare. Another Brexiteer?

    281. Thepnr says:

      @David Arnott

      If you can’t support NS because she supported Clinton then who can you vote for? All the party leaders in the Scottish parliament wanted Clinton to win.

      Some have quite strong views on Trump.

      Ruth Davidson on Trump:
      8th Dec 2015 Herald

      “So, twitter, we’re all agreed? Trump’s a clay-brained guts, knotty-pated fool, whoreson obscene greasy tallow-catch, right?”

      https://archive.is/kZWMr

      Kezia Dugdale on Trump
      22nd April 2016 Herald

      “The guy’s an arse. It’s that simple.”

      https://archive.is/JHNoF

      Patrick Harvie to Trump
      25th April 2012 Guardian

      As Trump was leaving the committee room, Harvie asked the mogul how he did his traditional victory sign, presenting Trump with two fingers pushed erect into the air. But Harvie’s victory sign was reversed: a widely recognised symbol of something much less polite.

      https://archive.is/3bR4o

      At least you can still vote for UKIP.

    282. izzie says:

      Has anyone interviewed the man on the Mennie estate who opposed Trump and whose house Trump described as a slum?

    283. Desimond says:

      Nowt as queer as fowk

      Just came back from Works kitchen, a few folk chatting in there…utterances included:

      “Maybe he wont be so bad…might do some good”

      “Read an interesting piece on how he is different behind closed doors, think it was by Piers Morgan”

      “People talking about how this is so very terrible are a joke!”

      2 white, apparent middle class professional types so they’re fine with it…go figure!

    284. M4rkyboy says:

      The Left’s takeover of the Scottish independence movement has been disastrous. The partisanship they’ve injected into the national question has tainted the prospect of an independent Scotland for huge swathes of the country.

      Their blinkered, myopic view of the world has blinded them to the ground moving beneath their very feet. This is no better epitomised than through Sturgeon and most the SNP’s idiotic interjection into the US presidential race.

      Their petty partisanship overruled any sense they might have had. When they should have been firmly on the fence, quietly waiting for the result to come in so they could congratulate the winner, they were choosing sides and castigating and punishing the clear favourite candidate amongst the American people, to the potential detriment of Scotland’s business and diplomatic interests.

      As has become typical of them, they’ve allowed the small policy to swallow the large one.

      I have voted SNP in every election since i was 18, i voted Yes. But the SNP have lost sight of their purpose. Sturgeon needs to resign and allow someone less ideologically impaired to lead the campaign for Scotland’s independence.

    285. heedtracker says:

      As Rev says, this is all down to Clinton being the one person that Trump could beat. I think Clinton is a horror show, and that’s before you look into her past year’s with her husband.

      Democrat’s had to make a decision on socialist Bernie Sanders and whether or not America is prepared to become a socialist country, or at least a US version of European socialised democracy.

      Half of America is a lot like the half of Scotland that vote NO 2014, middle and upper middle class that enjoy very high standards of living. Its merely conservative no change economics, both sides of the Atlantic. Sanders 2016 was as radical a change as Scottish independence may have been 2014, for these classes or demographics.

      Democrats had to choose Clinton but she failed to get the worst off Americans to believe in her. Trump’s succeeded.

    286. galamcennalath says:

      Three votes. IndyRef1, EU ref, US presidential – they all have something in common …

      With IndyRef1 the winning side achieved their victory by making a whole raft of promises which were never delivered.

      With EU ref the winning side achieved their victory by making a whole raft of promises which already we seen will probably never be delivered.

      With yesterday’s US vote the winning side achieved their victory by making a whole raft of promises which are so unlikely they will never actually unlikely to be delivered.

      History will show this time, not as a period of popular rebellion through the ballot box against the establishment, but as a period where the less we’ll informed can be manipulated and conned easily.

    287. gus1940 says:

      Ken500 @1.43

      For the nth. time you tell us that The US lost 2Million Dead in WW2.

      Please correct your records the actual figure was 305800.
      Source ‘The World War II Data Book’ p. 254.

    288. Luigi says:

      Well well. I wondered how long it would take before the yoon concern trolls tried to spin Trump’s victory as a massive blow to Scottish independence.

      Didn’t take long. 🙂

    289. Artyhetty says:

      Are we forgetting in this whole show, that now the republicans are again fully at the helm.

      As for David arnott@1.41

      Your abusive comment will get us nowhere. It may well be a matter of between the devil and the deep blue sea anyway. You assume that no one here is aware of Clintons record especially regards foreign policy. You are very very wrong to throw abuse at commenters here, most are acutely aware of the political climate both nationally and internationally!

      As has been pointed out, it’s the ones behind the scenes we need to worry about, and an extreme right wing in place in the US is the last thing the world needs. Clinton has a bad record indeed, just look at Honduras, it is a total mess as is most of south America, all due to the US and others, ie even Canada!

      I for one feel totally sick that a racist, sexist, anti gay, anti equal marriage, bigoted billionaire, is at the helm, in no way does that make the world a safe place in anyway at all.

      Scotland shackled to WM, brexit, tory regime in place for the foreseeable, extremists,trump/republicans in full charge in the US, wmd’s parked in Scotland, tories slash and burn for Scotland. It looks pretty fckg bad from where I am standing.

      I am going to take some time away from politics, ie a few hours, maybe a couple of days, it is all too depressing. Probably end up carrying on with my nuke sub woodcut, that’ll help!

      Oh, and thanks no voters.

    290. The old jokes are the best.
      St Peter at the Pearly Gates when Donald approaches.
      Who are you?
      I’m Donald the Trump. I was the President of the United States.
      When did the people vote you in as President?
      Yesterday.
      Rehashing an old joke here, not inciting violence, honest.
      Referendum on Scottish Self Determination? March or September 2018.

    291. Big Jock says:

      Can I say honestly I don’t care. Clinton was a political dinosaur and corrupt to the core. Trump is a misogynistic, bullying megalomaniac. But what you see is what you get with him. He is a crazy man who laid his cards on the table and people voted for him! At least the Yanks had the balls not to be bullied by the establishment and so did the English for that matter. Albeit for entirely different reasons than our Scottish referendum. England and the US have gone right wing. We had the chance to go left wing but stuck with mother England.

      I think that Sturgeon and others would do better not to support one candidate over another. They both stink, and the US is in meltdown much like England.

      Can Scotland escape?

      Hands up anyone who is bored with Brexit games?

    292. One_Scot says:

      It really is a measure of how acutely aware the Yoons are of their inability to prevent Scottish Independence when they have to go on twitter and beg Trump for help. #Desperados.

    293. Les Wilson says:

      I guess what we can learn from Trump’s victory was that people power CAN tame the elites. No fan of the man, but he won by motivating the middle to lower classes.

      They were rightly fed up of their government. All the telephone number monies the elites seem to get very easily, lost to those
      who have been suffering lower and lower quality of life due to government policies.

      Something we can take heart in, the weak won this time.
      No polls got the result right, no matter the money spent by the Clinton brigade and their backers, no matter he was vilified in all the US press.Over here we need to react in a similar way.

      He won, but really they are the winners, the people who had little hope rose to take the prize. They were brave enough to attack a system of building misery.
      Again, things we can learn from.

      I only hope Trump does not let them down.

    294. Luigi says:

      Tory press release (prepared yesterday):

      Hillary Clinton’s Donald Trump’s stunning victory in the US presidential election is a massive blow to the Scottish independence movement. The nats may as well go back in the box.

    295. carjamtic says:

      Lots of shouty voices,what’s new,it’s like a form of political road rage….see ! see ! I got the finish line first,I win,I win…you lose.

      As anyone visiting WoS will easily testify,we all already knew,there would be no winner in this race (to the toilet),we knew that we would ALL lose,no matter the result.

      We all knew that,no matter what,there would be a smell and held our noses,accepting it but hoping that the time spent cleaning up would not surpass the time it took for the defecation.

      Only time will tell,but a message,to the shouty,angry political road ragers / jaywalkers….”I would give it 5 minutes if I were you”.

      #who’sshitsmellsworseyerma’soryerda’s

    296. orri says:

      indy2014 wasn’t blame the fucking english because if it was then going by Brexit and Trump we’d have fucking won.

    297. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Seems the Trump victory has stimulated a few fellow-traveller right-wing Brexiteer types to start posting on here. All former Yessers (aye right) who don’t like wimmin and especially not that Sturgeon wummin.

      Take a hike, concern trolls, and take your misogny and other assorted hatreds with you. You are fooling no-one.

    298. Mike says:

      I full on blame the Democrats for this. They had an easy chance to take this election with Bernie Saunders. Why they stupidly went with somebody as toxic as Clinton is going to be the stuff of debate for years.
      I bet it involves all levels of corruption and dark influence.

    299. Meg merrilees says:

      Heedtracker ;

      The Guardian is quoting an article from August 2015 – surely even they would admit that a LOT has changed since then, for us and Trump.

      Maybe his opinion will have changed too?

    300. davidb says:

      A couple of things.

      A Republican during the night on 5 Live gave Assange an honourable mention. She suggested that if WikiLeaks had not revealed the dodgy emails Hilary would have been able to keep it secret. Perhaps Trump can issue some decree restoring his liberty.

      We routinely get fed a yoon line on all media fronts. Why would we assume that all the bad stuff dug up about Trump is peculiar to him? Jack Kennedy was a womaniser. Teddy Roosevelt had a penchant for cross dressing. Who knows what our great and good get up to in private? He may be a good president, or the usual duffer, but don’t regard anything you read about him as being anything other than establishment spin. That is not to say it isn’t true, rather that if he was one of theirs you wouldn’t have heard about the muck – yet.

      If – big if – he follows through on the talk, then maybe the US will build schools instead of warplanes. The world could do with more of the former and less of the latter Keynesian stimuli. And how open to the special pleading of say a Google or an Apple in relation to their tax affairs is a president likely to be when those Californian wide boys were behind his opponent all the way.

    301. McDuff says:

      M4rkyboy

      I agree with your post. It was really stupid of Sturgeon to interfere in
      in the US election as she can`t complain when if in future we have indy 2, other countries make negative comments about the SNP.Trump is now the US president whether we like it or not.

    302. gus1940 says:

      Why the hell did the Democrats pick Clinton? -practically anybody else could have beaten Trump.

      Surely amongst the Democrat Senators, Congressmen, State
      Governors and state politicians they could have come up with somebody better.

      The one silver lining is that Trump has awakened a significant number of people to the inherent corruption in the political system.

      Hopefully, although identified by the wrong guy this realisation could initiate the rise of a viable 3rd Party which with the advent of crowdfunding could take on the corrupt Establishment in 2020.

    303. desimond says:

      McDuff
      It was really stupid of Sturgeon to interfere in the US election

      The FM was ASKED a question at a Press conference by…at which point did she seek to INTERFERE?

      I’ve said my piece on this but if you want a Leader who doesn’t give an honest answer to a question then that’s up to you.

    304. Big Jock says:

      Yep I agree that any political leader of another country should not interfere in the another nations election. We didn’t like it when Obama and Clinton supported the Yoons. Because what happens is that you automatically set yourself up for flak and a fall.

      I am Pro -EU and Pro- Nicola Sturgeon. I just wish she had said no comment.

      He is not the devil, he is not going to eat your babies. The US is a democracy and he was elected by the people. International diplomacy should prevent anyone interfering in another nations democracy.

      I hope in indi-ref 2 other nations keep their neb out!

    305. Meg merrilees says:

      david b

      I think Julian is trying to be fair to all, not partisan.

      Interestingly, after theDonald questioned the FBI ‘s claim that it had checked 650.000 e-mails in 8 days…
      ‘How can anyone do that many e-mails in 8 days, it’s just not possible people, it’s just not possible. There’s a cover up, they’re lying’

      Julian Assange posted that an ordinary computer could do it quite easily by entering a search for e-mails addressed ‘To’ ‘CC’ and ‘BCC’. That would remove a lot of them.
      In fact it removed nearly ALL of them.
      The REALLY interesting thing being Julian’s next remark was,

      What I can’t understand is why it has taken the FBI a couple of hours to carry out the search, but 8 days to announce the result!!!

      Maybe he’s safer staying in the Embassy !

    306. Ken500 says:

      The ‘farmer’ on the Menie (ex shooting) Estate whose mother lives in a chalet without planning permission. Trump Organisation offered to put them on mains water. Refused. Lie after lie after lie. Fuelled by the bias lying Press and Greens. Knowingly printing lies. Trump invested £Millions.

    307. Betty Boop says:

      @ mike cassidy, 5:10am

      Brilliant, Mike.

      I confess I couldn’t be bothered watching the results; switched the telly off rather than watch. Not a fan of horror movies.
      Still, not surprised by the result. These were two dreadful candidates.

      The world is in a mess, right enough.

    308. ahundredthidiot says:

      Trump is a business man and there are no grudges held in that world. NS made a wee bloop, its behind us all.

      The Real Question is why the Rev is not on the payroll as an advisor to NS!

    309. Bob Mack says:

      Trump won because he sold the American people a version of The American Dream that will never happen. They think he will bring back manufacturing to provide jobs and regular income. Make America great again.

      Brexit had the very same rationale, and what they have in common is that they are built on sand. Dreams and illusions for the gullible in exchange for their vote.

      Trying to predict what he will do is a minefield but one thing I can assure you of is that he will do what HE wants rather than listen to anybody else.

      Conflict when and not if it comes ,will not come from Russia. He and Putin have much in common . Much more than separates them. Similar personality types. They know each other well. The problems will come in the South China Sea. That is my confident prediction.

      Chinese expansion to block off shipping and trade routes will be the key. Chinese politics and expansionism will not play well with Donald who will inevitably challenge their right to so do.

    310. heedtracker says:

      Meg merrilees says:
      9 November, 2016 at 2:30 pm
      Heedtracker ;

      The Guardian is quoting an article from August 2015 – surely even they would admit that a LOT has changed since then, for us and Trump.

      Maybe his opinion will have changed too?

      Its unlikely Meg. One of the main drivers behind US vote NO opposition 2014 was primarily down to tory UK military backing and support for the US. Or rather that special relationship that sees the UK piling in behind US strategic warfare.

      Tory England or the UK rather, losing control of such a large part of their Scottish territory alone, diminishes their military capability a lot. Clearly an England and Wales only rUK is further diminished as the current aggressive world military power, losing Faslane would diminish them even further.

      So from a US strategy view point, how hard is it for Washington to get say Norway, Sweden, Holland and France to go to war, like Bomber Blair’s UK did with Desert Storm.

      They even discussed this in wikileaks. One more new and independent north Atlantic nation state like Scandinavia that could well say no to the US, as so many others do, was and is not favoured by Washington.

      A good example is Gordon Brown buying two multi billion air craft carriers. Why? air craft carriers are not defensive. Almost no other western country has one let alone two carriers. Even Russia only has one, and its ancient.

      Red tory Crash Gordo ordered two carriers because he wanted to keep the UK in the US military world power strategy game. And so do the blue tories. It’s why they’ve bought Trident 2 and it why Corbyn’s latest version of red tory Labour also wants to be up there with the US biggies.

    311. Mike says:

      A few disturbing facts about the US electoral system.

      There are 215 million eligible voters in the USA
      Only 153 million of them have registered to vote.
      Only 59 million of those eligible to vote voted for Trump.

      Trump was elected on 27% of the eligible vote to be the most powerful politician in the world.
      This is a prime example of what happens when a criminally corrupt despotic political system collapses on itself.

      Fuck me sideways.

    312. ScottishPsyche says:

      Duh! It has just been pointed out to me that Better Together were much more the Trump/ Brexit equivalent on just about every level.

      No wonder we did not win.

    313. Taurian177 says:

      Why are we surprised? Since Margaret Thatcher promoted financial greed and the demise of industry, then the banks hurt the common people the world over, the only surprise is it took so long.

    314. M4rkyboy says:

      McDuff

      Her judgement is ideologically compromised, perhaps to the point that it’s damaging to Scotland’s diplomatic and commercial interests, although that remains to be seen. I’m 100% certain it’s damaging to the movement she supposedly heads. Her tenure as FM should be over from this gaffe. As SNP leader, considering she isn’t even a Nationalist, she should never have been elected in the first place.

    315. Desimond says:

      M4rkyboy @ 3:12pm
      This ranting post has me more :-0 than Trumps win!

    316. Greannach says:

      Maybe Labour can flog off their Immigration Control coffee mugs to President Trump’s team. Silver linings and all that.

    317. mike cassidy says:

      Taurian177 3.10

      But the point is that the so-called “ordinary people revolt” is just ‘ordinary people’ voting for the very sort of person they are supposedly voting against.

      How stupid do people have to be to think that someone like Trump is going to change a system which has made him and his friends very rich.

      Its as likely as Cowdenbeath playing in the Champion’s League.

    318. Eckle Fechan says:

      Iain MacLachlan, 9 November, 2016 at 11:52 am:
      That is a horrible thing to say and not worthy of a Scot

      Oh FFS. It’s not a wish, it’s an expression of one possible outcome from the US nutterhood point of view.

    319. heedtracker says:

      How stupid do people have to be to think that someone like Trump is going to change a system which has made him and his friends very rich

      They don’t see Trump as the actual Republican party in total. Its just like working class voting tories here. Ruth Davidson’s an example of the working class tory vote in the UK.

      eg, torygraph Ruth puff piece. Youre average torygraph reader would have their man horse whip you, if called them working class.

      Ruth is a tory goddess and

      “In the interview, Ms Davidson said the Conservatives were now a party where ordinary working people could feel at home. “I come from a blue collar background,” she said.

      “My parents were raised in Glasgow council estates. I’ve opened our party up and demonstrated it doesn’t matter where you come from or which school you went to.

      “I want people who work hard and are rooted in our communities. When I became leader the biggest change I made was completely clearing out our candidates and we now see 24 new faces.

      “I don’t like prima donnas. I really want grafters in our party.”

      She insisted that what she has done with the Scottish Conservatives is not revolutionary as the party has “always been a broad church”. Ms Davidson named the Cabinet ministers Stephen Crabb, who grew up on a council estate, and Patrick McLoughlin, a former miner, as examples of successful working-class Tories.”

      There are several others

      Here’s another frightfully tory oik:D

      https://twitter.com/ProfTomkins

      Thirds all round if Prof T heard you call him common though.

    320. Big Jock says:

      M4rkyboy -If you are genuine, I do feel your pain.

      However if we took your logic to a conclusion then everyone from Sturgeon to Theresa May to Corbyn will have to resign for things they said about Trump. He is a divisive character! Sturgeon should not have commented and that’s that , but it’s not a resigning issue. She was being honest not politically correct. I disagree with her coming out in public but agree with her thoughts on Trump. that said Hilary was corrupt for entirely different reasons. That’s why no comment is best.

      Regards Nicola not being a nationalist. She is a nationalist to her very core. There is a strategic game going on over the Brexit negotiations. She is trying to exhaust every avenue in the public eye so as to be seen to try, short of independence. The only conclusion reached will be that we need independence. This is a slow burning way of reaching indi -ref 2. She is trying to take soft no voters with her and pro-Europeans.

      That’s what’s going on but that’s not necessarily what You or I agree with. In fact I think that she is dithering and the people she is trying to take with her outwith the 45 are getting bored with her to the point of loathing. So the strategy may backfire if she is not careful.

      I think everyone on both sides definite yessers and soft no voters, want her to get on with indi ref 2. Continually pleading with London begins to look like begging to the outsider. That is not a good look for any leader.

      I agree with you we need to go for this and live with the result whichever way it goes. Time and tide waits for no man.

    321. Ken500 says:

      Trump in January. Hollande out in May?

    322. Clootie says:

      @M4rkyboy 3:12

      …Whit!!!

    323. Legerwood says:

      “”Les Wilson says:
      9 November, 2016 at 2:27 pm
      I guess what we can learn from Trump’s victory was that people power CAN tame the elites. No fan of the man, but he won by motivating the middle to lower classes.

      They were rightly fed up of their government. All the telephone number monies the elites seem to get very easily, lost to those
      who have been suffering lower and lower quality of life due to government policies.

      Something we can take heart in, the weak won this time.
      No polls got the result right, no matter the money spent by the Clinton brigade and their backers, no matter he was vilified in all the US press.Over here we need to react in a similar way.

      He won, but really they are the winners, the people who had little hope rose to take the prize. They were brave enough to attack a system of building misery….””

      I think you will find when you look at a breakdown of the results that Mrs Clinton won a majority of the vote in the demographic where people earned less than $50,000.

      Trump got the middle and upper class votes.

    324. Roy W says:

      Great stuff, so happy with the outcome, this is great news. Not joking either, aw you po-faced gits that say it’s the end of the world can go and boil yer heid’s yer all a bunch of whining prissy twits. Finally, the people had the guts to tell the corporatist scumbag Hillary to get tae f*ck with all yer bullying and telling people they are misogynists and racists, and this is just an amazing result. Great stuff, laughing my head off !!!

    325. Brian Powell says:

      McDuff. Either you didn’t check what NS said or you’re a fake on here.

      M4rkyboy. Definitely a fake on here.

    326. Mike says:

      The biggest Democratic block vote in the USA is the disenfranchised non voter. Approx 97 million of them.
      That’s a wopping 45%!
      That’s a country where its Government is perpetually unrepresentative of its people.

    327. Thepnr says:

      This has to be the stupidest thing I have yet read from a so called journalist as to why a Trump victory could be good for the UK.

      Apparently becuase the UK has nuclear weapons that will help May get a better Brexit deal from the EU with Trup as President.

      Somewhat deranged maybe?

      Mr Trump has signalled a lack of commitment to Nato, a defence alliance consisting of most countries in Europe.

      The alliance binds America to Europe, meaning that if one country goes to war with Europe, it would also go to war with the US. However, the UK has its own nuclear deterrent and is not as dependent on Nato as the rest of Europe.

      Therefore it is likely that other European nations will want to be closer to Britain.

      This could have a knock on effect on Brexit – strengthening Prime Minister Theresa May’s negotiating powers and improving the likelihood of us securing a beneficial deal.

      https://archive.is/jy15q

    328. Proud Cybernat says:

      Can’t Hilary claim the election was rigged and demand a re-run? I’m sure someone else had that in mind.

      Just askin’ like.

      Oh–and if the Donald sticks his oar into IndyRef#2 then that’s fine by me. What could be better for the YES campaign than having that sleezeball telling Scots what to do?

    329. Luigi says:

      Big Jock says:

      9 November, 2016 at 2:47 pm

      I am Pro -EU and Pro- Nicola Sturgeon. I just wish she had said no comment.

      Agreed. Disappointing but what is done is done. Quite a few politicians and commentators made a serious error of judgement and let their “I hate Trump” emotions get the better of them and said things they shouldn’t have. Not wise.

      Trump is not a nice fella (no smoke without fire), but he has been utterly trashed by the MSM and the US establishment. They did everything to tilt the playing field in Clinton’s favour. The more he was vilified, the stronger he became. There’s a serious lesson in all of this somewhere.

    330. M4rkyboy says:

      Brian Powell

      I’ve been posting here since late 2012. You’ll find posts from me on Newsnet Scotland from 2010.

      Not posted much since the referendum finished. I find myself ideologically alienated.

    331. One_Scot says:

      I’m all for folk having a say, even the trolls, but come on, once you’ve made your point, you don’t have to repeat it five times. It just make you look even more sad and desperate than you already are. #JustSayingLike.

    332. Brian Powell says:

      M4rkyboy

      To spread mis-information as ‘concerned’ Yesser, but so poorly executed you should be embarrassed.

    333. M4rkyboy says:

      Big Jock

      Her Nationalism seems to nestle inside issues that take prominence over it. Those issues twist her Nationalism out of shape to a degree that has tainted it, in my opinion. This reconciling of diametrically opposed ideas always favours these small issues.

    334. Chess man. says:

      The author/philosopher Sam Harris has stated, “Its ironic that 81% of Evangelicals have voted in an atheist”.

    335. Robert Louis says:

      I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – since I cannot fathom the stupidity of the American people. Yeah, that’ll really show those rich elites. Yeah. Yeah.

      F*ck’s sake America.. F*ck’s sake.

    336. donnywho says:

      M4rkyboy just searched Newsnet… you ain’t there!

    337. M4rkyboy says:

      Brian Powell

      You couldn’t be more wrong.

      Concerned SNP supporter despairing at the direction the party has went in. You seem emblematic of one of the problems they’ve stumbled into. That is, the partisanship in a National movement. Apparently it has gone so far that anyone even remotely unaligned with the trajectory of the party is persona non grata, even if they support a independent Scotland.

    338. M4rkyboy says:

      Donnywho

      http://newsnet.scot/archive/jack-mcconnell-im-joining-the-historic-british-establishment/

      This is the earliest i can find, although i remember posting before then.

    339. Robert Louis says:

      M4rkyboy,

      I don’t think you are ideologically sidelined. I do to some extent share your sense of frustration. I also agree the USA election which has nothing to do with the FM. Their was no need to say anything – or recently about Heathrow.

      I have for some time been concerned she has the wrong people advising her. Should have called indy2 the day of the brexit result. Instead we now have wishy washy talk of staying in the single market – which IS NOT the same thing. Not what I elected her for.

      Methinks some of them are just too damn comfy down at Westminster too – playing by the London rules, instead of creating an almighty fuss. Next UK election I won’t be voting SNP, for that very reason. I think Westminster is a distraction (and Westminster really knows how to play that wee game). Electing almost every single MP in Scotland does not seem to have moved independence forward one jot (and I can remember not so many years ago, when an SNP majority meant automatic independence – even Thatcher agreed with that). Indeed I think it is a hindrance.

    340. Robert Louis says:

      M4rkyboy is legit. Pretty sure he used to be on Newsnet in the very early days (before wings!!!!). I recognise the moniker.

    341. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ M4rkyboy

      “Those issues twist her Nationalism out of shape to a degree that has tainted it, in my opinion.”

      You’ll prefer the BritNat variety then:

      http://imgur.com/a/PlERn

    342. Thepnr says:

      Any working class American who deluded themselves that Trump would prove to be their saviour may be in for a rude awakening further down the line.

      The Republicans now also in control in both the Senate and Congress will do what they have always done and that is support the policies of their big money backers.

      Just as those working class that supported Brexit and a No vote in the UK, the reality for them will be to find themselves a lot worse off.

      Basically just like the Brexit bus promising £350 million a week for the NHS or Better Together promising to keep Scotland in the EU if we voted No they will find that Trump is full of hot air and would say anything to ensure he won.

      They are all proven liars and the people fell for it again.

    343. M4rkyboy says:

      I remember you too Robert Louis, always enjoyed your posts. I’ve went through some changes, pretty much a right-winger nowadays, though how i arrived there is a long and boring story which will fall on mostly deaf ears here.

    344. M4rkyboy says:

      Proud Cybernat

      I was in the Newsnet thread that decided on the Britnat term for our opponents.

    345. Macart says:

      @Thepnr 4.11

      Couldn’t agree more and posted as such earlier. Greatest trick the devil ever pulled and all that.

      The establishment in America are exactly where they always were in both houses.

      America’s government didn’t support Scottish independence yesterday and spookily they still don’t today and for the very same reasons.

    346. Robert Peffers says:

      @G H Graham says: 9 November, 2016 at 9:32 am:

      ” … You know, diplomacy ain’t that effin hard to figure out.

      Then, Mr, Mrs or Ms Graham, why can’t you figure it out?

      The majority of the heads of state in the World will probably join, “The United States of MEXICO“, in being very, very much anti-Donald Crump, if not actually also anti-USA and that for very good and obvious reasons. Not least Trumps already stated views.

      “Stay tuned for another tip tomorrow.”

      No thanks, Mr, Mrs, or Ms Graham, if today’s tip is anything to go by. If most of the World were not already anti-USA, and anti-Butcher’s Apron, yesterday they most probably will be even more so when/if, “The Donald”, is allowed, by the real powers in the USA, to implement his power crazed claims, “To make, “AMERICA”,(sic), “Great”, again.

      Has anyone else noticed the similarities between those two, “Special Relationship”, partners? Both with their misplaced ambitions to be something neither of the two are?

      The USA is not, “America”, but only, “The United States of the (North), American”, part of the whole American continent. Never forget the full title of, “Mexico”, is “The United States of Mexico”, and so the USA is not even the only united States in America.

      As for the United Kingdom they too lay false claim to be Britain but they are only the United Kingdom part of Britain. Furthermore, they are not in any way, “Great Britain”, as that term refers to only the largest, a.k.a the “Greatest”. island in the archipelago.

      I’m sure there must be a fancy psychiatric term for those who suffer from such false, “Grand”, delusions, but the term delusional will do fine for now.

    347. Proud Cybernat says:

      “Should have called indy2 the day of the brexit result.”

      Disagree. She has to wait until May shows her hand, utilw e know what Brexit will actually mean and how it will impact. Had Scotland’s FM called a second referendum immediately after the Brexit result then May could have said that she would be ensuring her government would do everything in her power to protect the UK’s single market status, employment rights for workers, human rights etc… a very soft Brexit.

      We would then be going into IndyRef#2 campaign arguing for our continued EU status with the UK Gov and its lapdog media screaming at us that a “very soft Brexit” would effectively protect most of the things we value about our EU citizenship. It would be a pack of lies, of course, but that is how they would have spun it. That is why she had to wait to see the white of May’s Brexit eyes and to know precisely how Brexit will impact on Scotland.

      The FM kept her powder dry and wisely so. IMHO. Oh and then there’s the not insignificant issue of the majority of Scotland having voted NO in 2014. That majority won’t disappear overnight. We can’t keep having a referendum every year until we finally get the answer we want.

      A material change in Scotland’s circumstances DOES JUSTIFY another referndum. But if the courts snarl Brexit up then there might not even be any material change.

      We have to be patient–and ready to move fast when all the cards are face-up on the table and it finally becomes clear that a material change has indeed taken place that will adversely affect the people of Scotland from what they were led to believe by the UK Gov in 2014.

    348. Big Jock says:

      Robert Louis – Yes you are correct indi ref should have been called the day after the vote. It should have been a snap referendum in August. The shock would have continued to the vote which would have won it.

      We missed that one! So now the shock has gone for no voting inners. What I feared most is now happening. Brexit is gradually becoming normalised (It’s 5 months since the vote!) People are talking in Scotland like Brexit is already happening and we are leaving the EU.

      If people like me are bored with Nicola’s strategy then I reckon we have a mountain to climb now. We are allowing Scotland and it’s people to be dragged along by the English timetable. We are not leading the nation we are being led.

      56MP’s sitting in Westminster a majority with the Greens and SNP at Holyrood. Brexit against Scotland’s will. Trump cosy-ing up to Farage. England falling out with the EU and Tories running Scotland from WM.(Perfect storm)

      Yet still Sturgeon faffs about with negotiations with the people we can’t ever negotiate with. We voted as a nation for the SNP and to stay completely in the EU. Call the referendum and now!

    349. Ken500 says:

      This is an Independence supporting website. No place for the faint hearted. Try the MSM. They mucked up every other website.

      27% of Americans voted by 1% for an US President. In two years they could change their mind. That is a reason not to vote SNP or support Independence in Scotland? Some people have little stamina.

    350. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      M4rkyboy,
      Funny that after your long self-imposed sojourn in the wilderness struggling with ideological alienation, a win for Trump against a female opponent has suddenly re-invigorated you. Into attacking Nicola Sturgeon. Duh.

      As far as indy is concerned, you’re a fake. A splitter. Bog off.

    351. stewartb says:

      @Threpnr 3.40 pm.

      Agree. Trump has indeed signalled an insufficient commitment to Nato among members and seems to expect that other Nato members up their financial commitments and share the burden with the USA. Or else …

      The UK may not be let off the hook from upping its contribution just because it invests in nuclear weapons and Trident renewal.

      From the Financial Times 13 April, 2015 by Gideon Rachman: “Buying Trident would weaken British defence: the Tories’ commitment is a frivolous decision to waste billions on a symbol of strength”

      Rachman states for context: “The British army is scheduled to decline to just 82,000 troops — its smallest size since the Napoleonic wars. ….. further defence cuts in the next parliament could see the army shrink to just 60,000. The navy, which had 70 destroyers and frigates in 1977, is down to 19 such vessels. It could no longer put together a task force of the size that Britain needed during the Falklands war of 1982. As for the air force, a new book by the BBC’s Mark Urban says the Libyan conflict of 2011 demonstrated that ‘a mission by six bombers?…?is about the limit of the RAF’s long-range strike capability’”.

      And Rachman advises on Trident renewal: “… talk to the nation’s most important allies and you get a very different perspective. Last week, I found myself at a conference table with four members of the US security establishment, three Democrats and one Republican, all of whom had held senior government positions. Not one of them thought Trident renewal made sense for Britain. All thought it would be better to spend the money on conventional weaponry.”

      Rachman concludes: “In a world of lavish defence budgets, Trident renewal might make sense. But that is not the world that Britain inhabits. In the real world, renewing Trident can mean only a further erosion of the country’s capacity to defend itself by conventional means and to protect its interests around the world.” (… and by implication, erode its ability to contribute to Nato.)

      Rachman goes on: “For the Tories to insist that, nonetheless, they intend to splurge billions on Trident simply testifies to their preference for flashy symbols over substance. They are like a man who can afford only a cheap suit, but insists on topping off the outfit with a gold Rolex watch. The overall effect is sad, not impressive.”

    352. donnywho says:

      Take it back, you are there. Mea Culpa

    353. Thepnr says:

      Prepare to have your blood boiled (LBC video).

      We put Nigel Farage, Alex Salmond, Chuka Umunna and Jacob Rees-Mogg (in a tuxedo) in the LBC studio to talk about Donald Trump and it swiftly became a war of words.

      http://www.lbc.co.uk/hot-topics/us-election/nigel-farage-vs-alex-salmond-over-donald-trump/

    354. Ken500 says:

      You have an Independence Referendum when you can, while doing the best for Scotland. Prescription, nursery places, bus passes, social care, student support. No room tax. £100milion welfare mitigation. Investment in renewables, shipbuilding, roads, railways, school, hospital and education. Support for fishing/farming. In April no benefit sanctions? Minimum pricing.

      Or the Tory/Unionists. Support for Independence increasing,

      Trump has two years, May has two years. Scotland has two years to call a Referendum.

    355. I have just finished leafleting in a local council by election here in Fife.
      so haven’t caught up with the latest news from the USA yet.

      I suspect the American people will find out soon enough that they have been conned by Trump when he doesn’t deliver everything he has promised them.

      It will very interesting to see how he is going to manage to deport eleven million illegal Mexicans and Latinos and what will that do to the US economy.

      Will the republicans allow him to build that wall between Mexico and the US he boasted he was going to do and at what financial cost?

    356. Andrew McLean says:

      Is their a fool moon tonight?
      The trolls are out and trying to spin their twisted agenda, now first I will say I use swear words, but I think the use of “retard” is deeply offensive.

      Anyway some idiot claims Nicola should resign because she said some small remarks about the Donald? Really that is the level of idiocy we have now!

      Nicola isn’t a nationalist? Really do you know you are right, she is an internationalist, and a inclusive leader of Scotland.
      Then we get the old “I am a independance supporter but hate the SNP” well I don’t believe you, in fact I absolutely know you are a fucking liar. Or a fool, no you are a fucking liar!

      Honest the standard it yoon trolls is unbelievable tonight.

    357. Orri says:

      Unless the UK invests in the development of an independent nuclear delivery system the USA can unilaterally pull the plug on Trident or it’s replacement. It might also insist on it’s relocation out of Scotland.

    358. Robert Peffers says:

      @Valerie says: 9 November, 2016 at 9:41 am:

      “I simply couldn’t fathom Nicola doing that, and I’m a huge fan. Someone said it was perhaps to put distance between her and Trump, but I think it was one of her rare slips.”

      Ah! Valerie, It depends upon how you interpret things and I believe Nicola, as usual is several jumps ahead of almost everyone else.

      I looked upon her actions in that light and looked for a possible reason for her to do so. You see I believe that little lady does nothing without thinking it through properly. I then clearly saw what she probably had realised instantly.

      The World at large is already very well split between opponents, wrongly termed, “The East and the West”. However, it has become apparent in more recent times that there are opening up great rifts in the states that are classed as being parts of, “The West”, and today many of those from, “The West”, are now at least suspicious, if not downright frightened by the USA’s choice of POTUS and most likely to adopt a stronger stance against, “American”, aggression and warmongering and, as we Independence for Scotland activists know only too well the government of, “Britain”(sic), at Westminster is, in actuality, little more that more than the latest state to be acquired by the Mighty USA, (sic).

      I thus join Nicola in concluding there is going to be a new realignment of World states that are increasingly becoming anti-USA/UK aggression and illegal bombing and killing sprees.

      I thus believe Nicola has chosen to align Scotland up with what is most likely the majority bloc of World powers and not with the USA/UK ultra-right wing bloc. Much of the modern World, Scotland included, has justifiable fears of the aims of those ultra right-wing led powers we Scots are attempting to free ourselves from.

      Perhaps Nicola has lined us up with the ultimate winners of the coming battle between the haves and the have nots.

    359. t42 says:

      ahundredthidiot says:
      “NS made a wee bloop, its behind us all.”

      Exactly. yes is a movement, not a cult.

    360. M4rkyboy says:

      Robert J. Sutherland

      You are emblematic of why the Indy referendum was lost. You’re sat here calling a Scottish Nationalist who has voted SNP in every Council, Holyrood, Westminster and Brussels election for 17 of his 35 years a fake, a splitter and to bog off. What happened to the broad Kirk?

      I swear, the Left has destroyed the Indy movement.

    361. Dave Robb says:

      @M4rkyboy and others

      I’ve voted for the SNP since the 1970’s. I didn’t join the Party, particularly under Gordon Wilson, as some of its policies/priorities were not to my taste. I would have taken independence regardless of who ran the SNP and used my democratic vote thereafter to determine the kind of Scotland I lived in.

      I joined the SNP after 2014 because I now think only a strong party can achieve the result I want: Independence.

      I have the same message for you as to the Hard Left, whom I had support for as a youth. With Independence everything is possible – without it, nothing is.

      I read what you are saying, understand your need to say it, but I disagree with your conclusion and recommendations. I’ll still take independence any way we can get it. Then I’ll argue points of political philosophy.

    362. Inkall says:

      While I disagree with Sturgeon’s words of support for Clinton a few days back I fully understand her dislike of Trump.

      Considering the trouble he caused on 2014 and the stripping of his Scottish ambassadorship after he suggested preventing all Muslims from entering the USA.

      I do find the suggestion that her comments was a marker of some kind of “ultra left” shift by Sturgeon or the SNP a rather odd one though.

      Just because a bunch of regressive left nutters backed Clinton for no reason other than she apparently has a vagina (I’d rather not check) doesn’t mean that all her supporters are from that group, or that indeed Sturgeon is one of these simply for giving the ever popular in the media line about glass ceilings.

    363. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breastplate says: 9 November, 2016 at 10:12 am:

      “Why were all the polls so wrong is a question I would like answered.”

      You have had THAT question answered over and over again here on Wings. If you cannot take it in then do not blame Wings or Wingers for your own inadequacy.

      There are no such things as really random opinion polls. Not only that but they all are fixed before they even ask the first person they choose to ask for an answer.

      For example YouGov signs up people and even pays them as people they choose to poll. After their first batch of answers YouGov knows just who to choose to get the answers their commissioners, (paymasters), want to hear.

      He who pays the piper calls the tune.

    364. heedtracker says:

      I swear, the Left has destroyed the Indy movement.

      No one FOR Scottish independence has harmed the process, so far.

      Its just the usual yoon culture in Scotland and rUK, red and blue tory, and some chancers and carpet baggers.

    365. M4rkyboy says:

      Dave Robb

      We’ll never carry a majority under a prospectus as proscriptive as the one the SNP are now advocating. It’s too divisive. Indy has been conflated with open borders, mass immigration, big government, pro-EU, anti-nuclear and a host of other partisan policies. How do we expect to carry the whole country when the rally cry is ‘no more Tories!’?

      The left have a modus operandi. Find something successful, kill it, gut it, wear it’s carcass and hijack the respect. Most of these leftists who jumped on board aren’t nationalists, in fact, they despise nationalism, it’s at odds with their own ideals.

    366. sassenach says:

      M4rkyboy, says

      ” I’ve went through some changes,….”

      and

      ” ….the direction the party has went in.”

      Such grammatical style!! But then follows with :-

      “You seem emblematic of one of the problems they’ve stumbled into. That is, the partisanship in a National movement. Apparently it has gone so far that anyone even remotely unaligned with the trajectory of the party is persona non grata, even if they support a independent Scotland.”

      …and uses words and phrases most out of grammar ‘character’ – I SMELL PISH!

      Troll.

    367. mealer says:

      Trump won’t be president for long.

    368. heedtracker says:

      BBC 24 news have Farage on their US news thing, sun tanned at yacht marina, its an anti establishment vote, like Brexit, special relationship, Trump’s ma’s Scottish, so that’s great apparently.

      Farage is a millionaire City banker/MEP. Bit of a theme building now BBC UKOK style. Its SNP are the establishment Scottish region of greater England and that’s v v bad, all the way, tory BBC style.

    369. frogesque says:

      OK, just what bad news has been buried by BBC 1’s Trumpfest today?

      I get that American elections are important in World terms but does this election and the fallout warrant 24 hours of coverage?

      I mean, it’s not as if it’s been an SNP good day has it?

    370. heedtracker says:

      “The left have a modus operandi. Find something successful, kill it, gut it, wear it’s carcass and hijack the respect. Most of these leftists who jumped on board aren’t nationalists, in fact, they despise nationalism, it’s at odds with their own ideals.”

      Who dat splitter then? Bet you cant put a name to any of this at all.

    371. heedtracker says:

      The left have a modus operandi.

      And shall be forever anonymous M4rkyboy, like Spider Man.

    372. Thepnr says:

      @M4rkyboy

      Can you explain where all the additional support for Independence came from between 2012 and September 2014?

      Can you explain why Labour support in Scotland has fallen off a cliff?

      Do you need a clue?

    373. Inkall says:

      @sassenach

      Aye a troll most likely indeed. Anyone knows the SNP simply cannot be a party that has no policy other than Independence.

      On the off chance that M4rkyboy actually isn’t a troll, may I suggest that if the SNP has become “too left wing” for you you could go and help start or keep active the Independence supporting groups within a party you see as more in line with your politics?

      These groups are JUST as important to Independence.

    374. M4rkyboy says:

      Sassenach

      Man, am i that forgettable? I posted here basically daily for 3 odd years.

      Heedtracker

      I have no idea what you’re on about.

    375. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      M4rkyboy,

      If you are so keen in indy as you claim, where have you been these last two years? Disengaged, by your own admission. Hard to understand then why an election result in the USA has suddenly re-kindled your involvement with a vengeance. Two years’ worth of postings in a matter of hours. Jeez.

      And to what purpose? To moan about our current FM, one of the most decent people in politics. Anywhere. Now exactly what is that intended to achieve? Excuse me for suspecting your motives.

      Indy has nothing whatever to do with conventional politics, despite what you seem to think. When Scotland is independent, you can indulge your own brand to your heart’s content, along with all the rest of us.

      But first we have to have our independence. Simples.

      Broad church is right. Which means we need everyone working together productively, not self-indulgently sniping and behaving in ways that only assist our opponents.

    376. Thepnr says:

      @M4rkyboy

      “I have the same message for you as to the Hard Left, whom I had support for as a youth.”

      Interesting. So too did Alastair Darling and Prof Tomkins have support for the “hard left” in their youth.

      On second thoughts, maybe their heart wasn’t really in it.

    377. heedtracker says:

      M4rkyboy says:
      9 November, 2016 at 5:59 pm
      Sassenach

      Man, am i that forgettable? I posted here basically daily for 3 odd years.

      Heedtracker

      I have no idea what you’re on about.

      Aye you do. Name some of those who are “leftists who jumped on board aren’t nationalists,” or give it up.

    378. Valerie says:

      Robert Peffers @ 5.06

      Yes, can’t disagree with any of that, and she didn’t actually say anything nasty about Trump, as the other Scottish leaders have.

      Nicola aligns quite well with Merkels words today, which were very well considered.

    379. Ken500 says:

      Farague is a crook. He has been funding an unsuccessful political Party for years with public money. Illegal in the UK. He should be in jail. He has been taking £Millions from the EU. While trying to destroy the EU economy. Now he is finished. His ‘party’ is disintegrating. Bankrupt. £3/4Billion in debt. Farague has mucked up his EU funding.

      He is wandering about the US with his tax evading crooked associate Arron Banks. Trying to get more funding. The authorities are allegedly investigating them. His associate has been arrested and charged with embezzling and money laundering in the States. The reason they want out of the EU is to continue tax evading. How long will that last? What he has done to the world economy is disgraceful.

    380. Thepnr says:

      “Most of these leftists who jumped on board aren’t nationalists, in fact, they despise nationalism, it’s at odds with their own ideals.”

      I guess your Nationalism is of the “blood and soil” type?

      Well, if so your welcome to it. Might I suggest that it is you who are the divisive one here.

    381. heedtracker says:

      Well, if so your welcome to it. Might I suggest that it is you who are the divisive one here.

      Its not too bad an attempt though. He cant name any band wagon jumping leftist for a whole range of reasons, primarely because if he does, it will be very clear that they are very tiny number.

      That tiny number does not prevent the whole the tory BBC led media reaching for this tiny minority and hey presto, every Scottish election, they’re on tv national news, most tory national newspapers explaining how far left Scotland as independent nation state is going to be. Then day after election, they’re gone, gone but not forgotten.

      Its one of the tory UKOK media’s cleverer dirty tricks, but what can you do. Guys like Loki gotta eat.

    382. Robert Peffers says:

      @X_Sticks says: 9 November, 2016 at 10:38 am:

      ” … We now have an American president who will do everything in his power to destroy the SNP and prevent Scotland from achieving independence.”

      Believe me, X Sticks. Mr Trump is going to have much, much bigger fish to fry than Scotland. He is going to be a very busy man.

      ” … I can see nothing hopeful on the horizon now. I think America will do well to avoid a civil war with such a xenophobic president in command.”

      Where have you been, X Sticks? I’m an octogenarian and the, “America”, you speak of,(I must assume you mean the US of A and not the continent(s), of America or even just North America), has been a hive of Civil War all my life.

      North vs South;. Europeans vs Native Americans, Ranchers vs Dirt Farmers; Black vs White; Wasps, vs every one else, (NOTE – White Anglo-Saxon Protestant (WASP) is a term for a closed social group of high-status and influential white Americans of English Protestant ancestry. The term applies to a group who control disproportionate financial, political and social power in the United States); rich vs poor; FBI vs Gangsters; Business vs Trade Unions; Government Prohibition vs Alcohol producing gangsters; Police vs Coloured People; everyone else vs Espanics; Everyone vs the Gun Lobby.

      Why else did you imagine there are so many mass shootings in the USA?

      Everyone hates everyone else that is not in their own little group and they all have easy access to guns . Even every neighbourhood has its neighbourhood gang at gun war with every other neighbouring neighbourhood’s gang.

      I will be very surprised if there are not attempts made to assassinate Trump. I believe there has never been such an out and out hate filled presidential campaign in my lifetime as the one just taken place.

      Trump has made it clear he is anti-Islamacist, anti-Mexican, Anti-Immigrant, anti-China and not too keen on several others too. Thing is he has just been elected to officially represent the entire population of the USA but has made it clear he is against most of them before his inauguration as president.

    383. carjamtic says:

      I have been ‘frozen” politically for a few years,but now my ideological reset button/switch has been activated again,but I won’t bore you with MY story.

      How’s Nicola getting on,is she still having to deal with those horrible opposition people,so we don’t have to ?

      and the Rev. is he still wading through all the sludge so we don’t have to ?.

      Jings,is that the time,got to go,like a Mayfly I only have a short lifespan….byeeeeeezzzzzz.

      #manfindshisidealogythankstotrumpamiracleItellyouamiracle

    384. CameronB Brodie says:

      The hard left and hard right walk hand-in-hand. Neither has much respect for human rights.

    385. Valerie says:

      M4rkyboy @ 5.38

      That post must sum your beliefs up then? Right wing indeed. Shame on us for welcoming immigrants and being pro EU, eh?

      You need to speak to that nice kipper Coburn then, as he will be your type.

      Amazing you think these ‘partisan’ beliefs are a stick to beat us with, when the whole world is witnessing the economic demise of the UK,thanks to these beliefs swinging Brexit down south.

      On Twitter today, we see very sad examples of fear now Trump is elected, such as Muslim women advising each other, not to wear their Hijab. They will see the same increase in racist crime as happened in UK.

      You really are brave sharing these views on here, or you are being paid well.

      As an SNP member, ill be sure to raise at the next branch meeting your concerns as to how we need to appeal to the far right.

      I will make sure I’m standing at the back of the hall when I do that though, near the exits.

    386. Macbeda says:

      I do wish people would stop using rUK and use the proper term Kingdom of England. The UK will cease to exist when the Kingdom of Scotland leaves.

    387. HandandShrimp says:

      I recall M4kyboy well – he posted here and there regularly.

      Hope you get over the right wing thing M4…there are tablets for it I think 😉

      I don’t agree that the situation is as skewed as you say. Nicola is certainly left of centre but she is not in imminent danger of joining the SWP. I think the SNP are ploughing a fairly centrist furrow, which is where most of the votes live. If she were to pitch it from a neoconservative angle the Tories would mostly still be true blue unionists and all the rest of us would cry.

    388. Robert Peffers says:

      @Pete says: 9 November, 2016 at 11:12 am:
      ” … Take the SNP, what have they actually done?
      Gay marriage
      About to increase local and national taxes designed to hit the aspirational.
      Mad climate change policies.
      The only reason I vote SNP is as a means to independence but it’s becoming harder by the day.”

      Awa hame tae yer YooKay, Pete, an bile yer heid.

      Are all you Yoons as transparnent as you are, Pete?

      That’s, in case you wondered, a rhetorical question, Pete.

    389. Thepnr says:

      After Trump won did somebody open Pandora’s Box? Feels that way.

    390. Robert Peffers says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 9 November, 2016 at 11:15 am:

      “trump will return to scotland to visit his golf course, will nicola meet him off the plane?”

      Probably not as that would not be an official POTUS visit but if he flies in on an official visit as POTUS visiting Scotland on official business then of course she will meet him officially. That is the, often unpleasant, job of FMs PMs and Presidents and it is governed by strict diplomatic protocol.

    391. heedtracker says:

      More yoon tory culture fun, The Guardian begging bowl Project Fear style…

      “Never has the world needed fearless independent media!

      Help us hold the new president to account, sort fact from fiction, amplify underrepresented voices, and understand the forces behind this divisive election — and what happens next.”

      Its funny because Graun’s trying to cash in pretty reasonable and rational Trump fear. But that didn’t prevent Graun from using Trump in Scotland to help Graun batter the life out of Scottish democracy 2014. Trump, Salmond, golf, Mennie, all evil, Scots cant do it, vote NO or else, buy The Guardian.

      They’re all getting desperate for money as facebook alone sucks away all their advert dosh. Poor souls.

    392. David Arnott says:

      @M4rkyboy

      You’re hitting your head against a wall. I also support independence for Scotland, however the modern leftish garbage that turned people to Trump is the same leftish garbage that will put people off the SNP and further damage the chance of independence. Im not just speaking for myself with that either, but it includes other (almost former) SNP supporters i know.

      You cant tell any of them (lefties) that they are wrong either or you might be a ‘misogynist’ (in a country where most political leaders are female yet somehow its misogynist to suggest that women dont need affirmative action in politics), racist, bigoted or whatever crap they can label you as so they get to feel like they have the moral and intellectual high ground. They are too busy polishing their halo’s or railing for entrepreneurs and business owners to pay more for every useless lazy twat that would rather sit at home, or pump out unloved benefit-babies, than work.

      In Nicola Sturgeon im seeing a worrying resemblance to Merkel and if anybody thinks thats going to end well then they need another puff of whatever it is they are smoking. (No im not a Brexiteer). The more idealogical baggage she attaches to the indy movement the worse it will fare

    393. yesindyref2 says:

      I think all the pundits, the media commentators bar Piers Morgen, the pollsters, the journos, and leaders who chose one side in their daftness, underestimated Trump, and still do.

      If the political system of Washington thinks it can laugh at him still, control him, manipulate him, it’s badly mistaken.

      World War 3 just disappeared back over the horizon where it belongs.

    394. Thepnr says:

      @David Arnott

      Ah David, glad your back. Maybe you could answer the questions M4rkyboy has so far failed too? Much appreciated.

      Can you explain where all the additional support for Independence came from between 2012 and September 2014?

      Can you explain why Labour support in Scotland has fallen off a cliff?

      Do you need a clue?

    395. yesindyref2 says:

      @David Arnott
      Totally agree. She needs to lose her obsession with glass ceilings for one thing. Problem is if you stamp your foot on one and it cracks, you fall through and get sliced and diced by falling glass.

    396. HandandShrimp says:

      Trump has made a lot of promises and has undertaken to steer a more isolationist trade path. He is going to be a busy man in the US for the next four years. I am sure he promised to arrest Mugabe in Zimbabwe and a pile of others too and help Putin chase Daesh out of the ME so I am not sure if his foreign policy will be very Europe focused.

      He may come to Scotland to see his gold courses but I am not sure how many state visits we will get if any.

      On the plus side Trump loves his golf courses so we should avoid getting bombed…mostly.

    397. Legerwood says:

      Valerie says:
      9 November, 2016 at 6:06 pm
      Robert Peffers @ 5.06

      Yes, can’t disagree with any of that, and she didn’t actually say anything nasty about Trump, as the other Scottish leaders have.

      Nicola aligns quite well with Merkels words today, which were very well considered.
      ……………..

      From what I have seen and heard today Ms Sturgeon’s remarks about her preference for Ms Clinton before the election and her remarks after the result have been measured and statesmanlike compared to those of other politicians including Ms May and Boris Johnson whose remarks about Trump before the election were neither measured nor statesmanlike. Thus their remarks congratulations ring somewhat hollow.

      The people who say Ms Sturgeon should not have made those remarks because they might invoke an adverse reaction from Trump seem to me to be people who have already prepared their neck and lie supine waiting for the Trump boot.

      If we want an independent Scotland then we will have to stand up for it and for the decency and ideals we want it to hold.

    398. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dr Jim says: 9 November, 2016 at 11:24 am:

      ” … The people who run America are the people nobody ever sees just the same as Westminster …

      This is actually a known but little acknowledged USA fact.
      I mentioned it in reply to a post up-thread a bit.

      There is a term that is used to describe the real power holders in the USA.

      WASP.

      It stands for, “White Anglo-Saxon Protestant”.

      See these links:-

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestant

      https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-defining-traits-of-the-WASP-White-Anglo-Saxon-Protestant-socio-cultural-identity

      The UK has it’s own batch of WASPs but these are more commonly known as, “The Westminster Establishment”, and slightly different from the class we, Scottish Independence activists refer to as, “Yoon Loons”, or simply Yoons.

    399. Iain More says:

      Where are the two Jonahs today? That would be McTernan and Dugdale.

      Well the P&J wont be holding him to account nor will Brexit Britannia TV Aberdeen. They will be getting out the laxative and Vaseline to make things nice clean and smooth for him when they bend over.

      My cousins in the States voted for that woman with a peg over their noses as they did so. So I suppose it isn’t any great shock that he won.

      The only pleasure I got today was seeing the skelpit face of quizzer Bicker looking as sick as a proverbial. Was quizzer Cook as equally sick looking?

    400. Breeks says:

      There’s a lot of changes I might make to the Scottish cabinet, but Nicola isn’t one of them.

      I am happy that Scotland’s First Minister would see Trump stripped of his ambassadorship for his anti Muslim bigotry. Talk is cheap, and actions speak louder than words … lol. Both barrels from the cliche shotgun. But seriously, I am happy that Scotland’s First Minister made the correct call, and stood up for principle. Doesn’t that cut to heart of why we all want Independence? I don’t want a demure wee country that goes with the flow and keeps its trap shut. I want a bold wee country that will call the bluff of any overblown windbag, and hold its ground and stoutly defend integrity and principles when they are under attack.

      I am neither a right wing Tory nor a Left Wing socialist, nor am I party faithful for the SNP. Truth be known, my Scottish untopia; that picture in my head I have of a modern, vibrant, sovereign Scottish country isn’t defined by the right or the left. To me these terms are washed out hand-me-down terms for the way Westminster ran its affairs. If you’re not one, then you must be the other, and there’s no common ground between the two outstretched sword lengths. That’s bullshit frankly; artless painting by numbers.

      I want a Scotland with a fierce reputation for commerce and manufacturing excellence that rekindles terms like Clyde-built, and when “Made in Scotland”, “Scottish Knitwear”, “Scotch Beef” was music to the ears of the purchaser who knew their money was well spent. But the whole point of a Nation’s commercial success is that we are better equipped to help those that cannot help themselves. What dream is there for a better Scotland which leaves half of us impoverished, underprivileged, or doomed to a life of underachievement? That’s not the correct dream you’re having.

      The Norwegians get it right… mostly. I’d rather they didn’t stick nasty great spikes in whales, but I find it hard to fault their commercial acumen and prudent foresight, and the effortless happy marriage they enjoy with prosperity and social responsibility. A pint of whatever they’re having, Barman… even if it does cost a tenner.

      So yes, for now, I try to bite my tongue, and see the best in the disciplined ranks of my fellow Independentists, even if they sometimes make that difficult, and sometimes err on the side of caution when ever fibre of my being is screaming out for urgent intervention.

      I feel the same frustration, but temper my anger because I am not the SNP, and doing it differently is my prerogative. They will do things their way, and I will see things my way. Provided we get to our destination, a free, progressive, independent nation state of Scotland, then all sins will be forgotten. None of us have failed so far, we just haven’t done enough… yet.

      If Nicola has it as her fate to falter short of the mark, (and I don’t subscribe to the view that she will), then let her only stand aside to make way for someone better, and right now, I can think of no such person, nor any such occasion. She might not be doing things my way, but she is the FM of Scotland, and I am nobody.

    401. mike d says:

      Cant wait for katie hopkins to keep her promise to live in the states if Trump won. Hurry up, do us all a favour and fcuk off you stupid bitch.

    402. heedtracker says:

      Was quizzer Cook as equally sick looking?

      Well at least Cook did finally get to see “absolute chaos” on the streets of your America. Although not as chaotic as the great Jim Murphy tragedy of St Enoch’s square.

    403. David Arnott says:

      @thepnr

      A number of reasons. I was glad for the rise in support.

      That does nothing to challenge my view that the numbers of people supporting the SNP wont drop unless there is a slight change of tack.

      Sorry for disrupting your echo chamber. 🙂

    404. Croompenstein says:

      Scotland deliver us from evil… 🙂

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVy7faNKEtM

    405. Gary45% says:

      Breeks@7.17,
      Great post.
      You are somebody, you are Breeks.

    406. K1 says:

      ‘You cant tell any of them (lefties) that they are wrong either or you might be a ‘misogynist’ (in a country where most political leaders are female yet somehow its misogynist to suggest that women dont need affirmative action in politics), racist, bigoted or whatever crap they can label you as so they get to feel like they have the moral and intellectual high ground. They are too busy polishing their halo’s or railing for entrepreneurs and business owners to pay more for every useless lazy twat that would rather sit at home, or pump out unloved benefit-babies, than work.’

      The words of a man drowning in daily mail rhetoric…

      Am I the only one seeing this? Yesdindyref2…you support this view?

      ‘ I also support independence for Scotland, however the modern leftish garbage that turned people to Trump is the same leftish garbage that will put people off the SNP and further damage the chance of independence. Im not just speaking for myself with that either, but it includes other (almost former) SNP supporters i know.’

      The ‘modern leftish garbage’ that has put 56 SNP Mp’s intae Westminster, that has seen the SNP win a third consecutive term in office? The increase in Yes support which as seen us reach 45% and we are now well over that mark?

      You are ‘just speaking for yourself’. What arrogance, what breathtaking pish are you spouting on here?

    407. Robert Peffers says:

      @Artyhetty says: 9 November, 2016 at 11:38 am:

      “If we are not independent before the next general election, and the next Scottish election, I for one will be getting the hell out of the yookay.”

      Might it not be a better solution all round to get an end to the YooKay, Artyhetty?

      The truth being that the Yookay is legally a bipartite union of kingdoms and thus if either partner kingdom leaves the YooKay will legally have ended because it has never legally been a unified country but, as its official title describes it, “A united Kingdom”, that cannot exist without at least two kingdoms being united.

      Scotland cannot leave behind a still united Kingdom when what remains is, (almost), exactly the same Kingdom of England that signed up to the Treaty of Union. That Kingdom of England was already the owner of the English Principality of Wales and the Irish Province that was formally the Kingdom of Ireland.

      Factually the Prince of Wales is still the first born son of the monarch of England but has officially a different Royal title in Scotland and the Province of Ireland partitioned to only leave Northern Ireland as the English Kingdom’s Province. The historic documentation of these fact still rests in the Westminster archives.

    408. carjamtic says:

      David Amso

      Thanks for that update on ‘your’ thoughts,been nice ‘chatting’ ‘listening’ hope your feeling better soon.

      #alwaysapleasureneverachore

    409. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      David Arnott @ 19:01:

      In Nicola Sturgeon im seeing a worrying resemblance to Merkel

      Alas that comparison escapes me, David. Merkel is a long-term fairly successful right-wing leader of a large and fully-autonomous European state. Nicola is none of those things. The only point of comparison I can think of is that both in their own way are motivated by principle, in Merkel’s case by being willing to accommodate a fairly hefty number of Syrian war refugees against the opposition of a bunch of neo-Nazi nutters. Is that what you mean by “not ending well”…?

      Furthermore, you seem to be falling into the same error as your pal M4rky. Independence isn’t a zero-sum game. If a bunch of loony lefties happen to support independence, it doesn’t somehow magically suck that ability from someone like you. Are you feeling that insecure?

      After independence, everyone will be able to put their case to the people, and take their chances. If you feel strongly that your ideas have the hottest ever chance of winning the day in a fair democratic contest, what do you care about the foolish prospects (as you would see it) of a bunch of misguided lefty idealogues?

      Unless of course it’s independence itself that you’re really afraid of.

    410. Colin MacKechnie says:

      I like John McTernan to make the following statement:

      Colin, you will never ever ever find a suitcase at the bottom of your garden with £10 000 000 in it.

      Perhaps John, if you are reading this you could oblige?

    411. Liz g says:

      Re what Nicola said about Trump.
      As I see it whether it was intended or not she has put Trump firmly in the…. well he would say that wouldn’t he….camp.
      If he tried to run his mouth in the next Indy Ref.
      Most people would also easily believe it was only Trump trying to get payback.

      That could not be done if Hillary had won,also if he didn’t win the election it wouldn’t have mattered.
      So Nicola had nothing to lose and something to gain by saying what she did.

    412. K1 says:

      When did Wings turn intae a bile cesspit for these views to be so casually aired and so easily dismissed and ignored by everyone? I see Thpnr challenging him? Who else? I can’t fucking believe you yesindyref2…your ‘halo’ is slipping sir.

      Nicola Sturgeon has done more to bring Scotland together in the past 2 years whilst up against the howling propaganda of the ‘divisive’ Scotland as a meme since ref1? She has increased support amongst women for independence? She has emerged as one of the most mature leaders in response to the Brexit anti foreigner rhetoric and reassured our European demography that they are safe and welcome in Scotland. She utterly rejects the increasingly right wing direction of the UK government. And this arsehole is telling us the ‘lefties’ are the problem and that ‘affirmative’ action…and the ‘glass ceiling’ are what will ‘undo’ her?

      Are we fucking kidding.

    413. Thepnr says:

      @David Arnott

      “A number of reasons” is not really an answer now David is it.

      It’s pretty clear why support for Independence increased from around 25% in 2012 to 45% at the time of the referendum.

      The “leftie” Labour support collapsed and moved to Independence and the SNP.

      You also stated:

      “They are too busy polishing their halo’s or railing for entrepreneurs and business owners to pay more for every useless lazy twat that would rather sit at home, or pump out unloved benefit-babies, than work.”

      Benefit babies is a new one to me, I’m going to surprise you here maybe but I too fully support entrepreneurship and wealth creation in an Independent Scotland.

      I also support the right to a living wage and a safety net for the disabled or disadvantaged. If an entrepreneur cannot afford to pay a living wage then his company doesn’t deserve to survive, some other entrepreneur will come along and take their place.

      I don’t agree with tax credits, they are ridiculous but necessary because the entrepreneurs are not obliged to pay the minimum required to actually live a decent but basic life.

      Have you ever tried some research into working family poverty? This might help you get started if you haven’t already, from the IFS:

      At the same time, falls in real earnings reduced the incomes of working families. These two contrasting trends led to absolute child poverty remaining unchanged overall in this period. However, the proportion of children in poverty living in a working family rose from 54% in 2009–10 to 63% by 2013–14.

      https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/7880

      Benefit babies indeed and whose fault is that if not governments?

    414. yesindyref2 says:

      @M4rkyboy
      Back during the National converstaion, there was a forum, the format of which was some piece by an SNP minister, and comments allowed underneath. Not once by the way did any minister deign to appear below the line, or answer any questions posted there, but that’s another story.

      I posted there regularly, and one of my themes was that for every policy that Independence espoused, it would LOSE supporters of independence. The more policies Independence had, the more supporters it would LOSE.

      It’s about the same as what you’re saying. Independence is about the ability to set our own policies, it isn’t about any particular one. We need to be able to encourage YES voters from the whole of Scotland, not just the ones we don’t totally piss off.

    415. Iain More says:

      David Arnott says:
      9 November, 2016 at 7:01 pm
      @M4rkyboy

      “You’re hitting your head against a wall. I also support independence for Scotland, however the modern leftish garbage that turned people to Trump is the same leftish garbage that will put people off the SNP and further damage the chance of independence. Im not just speaking for myself with that either, but it includes other (almost former) SNP supporters i know.”

      Somebody is talking utter pish. Saunders would have won if it had been him going against Trump. The folk that voted Clinton many did so with great reluctance. The dangers signs for the idiots in the Democratic Party establishment were there when Saunders won the Wisconsin and Michigan Primaries despite what the pollsters were spewing out but they didn’t learn anything. Oh and Sturgeon is no Hilary in these days or personality politics. She is generally liked Sturgeon that is.

    416. yesindyref2 says:

      @K1
      I never had a halo, I’m me, the genuine article, I am what I am, no shit.

      Indy Ref 1 was all about leftist policies, and that broke the strangehold that Labour had on Scotland. It probably had to happen that way and if and when I criticise that, it means we need to change for Indy Ref 2 to encompass the rest of the population of Scotland, not that it shouldn’t have happened that way for IR1. With Labour so stuck entrenched in Scotland, they had to be the main target.

      But most of Scotland is not hard left, and if Indy Ref 2 is all about lefty policies again, we’ll get the same result – at best. Probably in fact a little lower this time, the novelty will have worn off.

      So while I may or may not support all that Arnott has said, I agree wtih the main thrust of it, which is that Indy can NOT afford to tie itself to warm fuzzy stuff like welfare, getting rid of nukes, alll the rest of it.

      It needs to appeal to all people.

    417. K1 says:

      Brexit and Trump will bring ‘support’ form the ‘whole of Scotland. Our enemies will increase our support for independence. The underlying inference from some commenters is that it’s all down to the SNP and their policies and that it is them and them alone that have ‘adjust’ to bring on board more support.

      I can’t convey how angry I am at that subtle insinuation. The movement for independence is a broad church and many ‘events’ and other external factors will play a significant part in our becoming an independent country. It’s simply not all about the fucking SNP.

      When we become independent people can pick and choose which mandates they wish to support that align with their particular flavour of politics. Until then feeding narratives that are a blatant attempt to undermine our current pre independence government are not in the least bit helpful, nor productive in effectively maintaining a broad consensus amongst our movement. They are in fact being spouted by people who are obviously not independence supporters.

    418. Andrew Mclean says:

      Classic use of the disruptive phycology at use tonight, drive a wedge, cause friction create havoc, but to what end, who in their right mind would ask for Nicola’s head? What fool would criticise the SNP as being bad for independence, oh yes a unionists troll would, ether a lone trouble maker or as part of a group.

      Read the posts above and ask yourself who gains the most, what party benefits.

      Today we discovered that the Chinese through one of their senior people have accused the opposition in Scotland of interfering in actual negotiations on contracts for investment.

      And in the state media.

      Nothing,

      On wings, “I love independence me, but SNP bad, SNP bad for Scotland’s nationalists”

      I say fuck right off, creeps.

    419. X_Sticks says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      9 November, 2016 at 6:26 pm

      Cheers Robert, always good to get a skelping from on high. Yes I did mean the Yoo Ess of Aa, or America as it’s residents call it.

      “Mr Trump is going to have much, much bigger fish to fry than Scotland”

      If you think President Trump doesn’t / won’t hold a grudge then I think you underestimate the man, no matter how otherwise busy he is.

      And, yes, there have always been undercurrents of tension in “American” society between the various cliques but have mostly been kept under control. What I fear now is that it will get out of control and with a highly armed civilian population of all groups it will become a war on the streets.

      When some of the United States of America’s worldwide enemies do arrange an assassination attempt on Trump successful or otherwise do you think his radical supporters will take that sitting down? All ‘others’ will be fair game in their minds.

      @M4arkyboy I can vouch for your having been around for a long time. I remember you from blether with brian and Newssnet days. I’m sad to see you seem to have moved to right wing views, but each to his own.

      @Breeks 7:17
      Can’t but agree with another good post 🙂

    420. yesindyref2 says:

      As for Sturgeon, she isn’t a saint you know, she’s not perfect, if you put her on a pedestal you’ll get a hernia.

      It’s like ashes in the mouth to have to admit that Theresa May showed far more sense, maturity and statesmanship, when she wished both candidates good luck on th day of the election.

      Whereas Sturgeon cast her lot with just one candidate. And even if that one candidate had won, it would still have been the wrong thing to do, and would probably have won her no favours even from Clinton.

      Her statement today did wiggle her out of it a wee bit by her emphasising the “glass ceiling” of Clinton being the first woman president. In other words, admitting that that’s a total weakness in terms of world statesmanhip and even leadership of our country – which it is.

      Her job is to be First Minister of Scotland and at the helm of Independence, not to pursue feminist policies to the bitter end, or anti-nuke either.

      She’s losing her focus.

    421. K1 says:

      You then yesindyref2 would best serve the point that you are making in response to the poster by specifically stating what you just have, because there was ‘no’ discernment in your response to him? None, a broad and full ‘acceptance’ wi nae caveats and absolutely no addressing the utter vacuousness and shallow essence of his post.

    422. David Arnott says:

      @thepnr – The fault of children being in poverty primarily lies at the feet of parents who have them without being in a financial position and with the sense of responsibility needed to support them. Shocking bit of truth eh? Especially when it comes from a guy who grew up in council house in the Thatcher years and was fed sometimes purely by the charity of family friends. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Are you really that brainwashed?

      @Ianmore I would have preferred sanders to trump. But Hillary and crew did their level best to cheat him out of it didnt they? You know – hillary who made the Libyan war happen? The Hillary who wanted a ‘no fly zone’ over syria and who had to be politely reminded that would involve ww3? Further i never compared Sturgeon to Hillary.

      @ Robert.J Sutherland – the comparison to Merkel is about being blinded by idealogy over practicality. Further i have always supported independence, im just warning that the way Sturgeon is going that much aspired independence might get a little further from reach, as much as you hate to hear it or read it.

    423. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @K1 –

      You’re right to be angry that more of us aren’t challenging these blowhards, but mibbes a lot of us are just tired if it all and today slammed the tin lid on it.

      The ‘haters’ are emboldened, yet again, even if they profess to pollsters and loved ones and neighbours that it’s nothing to do with them. The same secret ‘Naws’ who were delighted to see that disgraceful display in ‘George’ Square on Sep 19th 2014 but didn’t dare gloat. The same fearty xenophobes who buy their Daily Mails ‘but it’s just for the telly and the crossword’. The same cowards who are happy to let Farage and Johnson and May spout scaremongering filth on their behalf cause they’d never have the guts or language skills to get beyond stammering outrage about ‘these people…these people and all the rest of it…’

      Let them have their day. We don’t have much of a choice, eh?

    424. yesindyref2 says:

      @K1
      “They are in fact being spouted by people who are obviously not independence supporters.”

      The standard repsonse for when someone disagrees with you – one used by far too many people who are obviously not independence supporters.

      See – anyone can do that shit.

    425. Robert Peffers says:

      @Iain MacLachlan says: 9 November, 2016 at 11:52 am:

      “That is a horrible thing to say … “. Perhaps it is a horrible thing to say, Iain, but none the less it is truth for all that”.
      The truth is often horrible. Just ask anyone who has been informed they have incurable cancer.

      ” … and not worthy of a Scot”

      Are we, as Scots to be denied the right to speak truth?

      As some reputedly great English person once said, “What’s in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.”

      The truth, in this case, is that a much higher proportion than average of USA presidents have either been assassinated or suffered assassination attempts.

      Are we, as Scots, to be deigned the right to speak the truth because some think the truth to be horrible?

      Let us be quite clear about thus – no one has yet suggested such an event would be desirable – only that there is a distinct possibility, or even probability, of such a thing happening.

    426. K1 says:

      In your ‘opinion’. Mine’s differs. I do not regard her comments re Trump and Clinton as even noteworthy, you have a ‘beef’ about it. That’s clear. But to align yourself with a troll on here so that you can tell us all how ‘She’s losing her focus’ doesn’t really serve our cause. You are a member of the SNP yesindyref2, I’m not and I’m not in thrall too Nicola. I don’t really understand what ‘point’ you think you are making with this opinion regarding her comments in the first place?

      You were wrong about Trump, you may well be wrong about this. But you sure as hell are eager to let us all know to the point where you are in perfect agreement wi an obvious troll. Why?

      The SNP aren’t the ‘only’ game in town, it’s you who is suggesting strongly that they are.

    427. @yesindyref2

      how can you ask for a citizens vote without offering policies to vote for?

      you can`t be pro Trident and anti Trident hoping to get both voters.

      You seem to have a bitterness toward Nicola,

      which is up to you and your conscience but it pisses off a lot of Yes voters,

      maybe your views would be better received on other pro Indy sights like Bella Caledonia.

    428. Ken500 says:

      Many of the politicians in the world must be losing their focus? Including in the UK cabinet, the foreign secretary (that will be interesting) and Westminster, who expressed disquiet about the election of Trump. The so-called attribute to Democracy – ‘Freedom of speech’.

    429. David Arnott says:

      @Ianbrotherhood

      You mean when you get a view from someone who would like the same outcome as you (independent Scotland)that challenges your own view and disrupts your little echo chamber are they are ‘haters’?

      Do you not realize just how utterly ridiculous a position that is?

      I and it seems Yesindyref2 want an independent Scotland, but because our underlying politics and views dont suit your narrative we are ‘haters’ or ‘trolls’?

      You have just made perfectly clear my point why childish, safe-space, leftish idealogical garbage like this is damaging to the independence movement and why many thinking people will be put off from a movement that espouses it.

    430. K1 says:

      O’ fur fuck’s sake yesindyref2, dinnae be a smart arse. There is simply no need to start this childish ‘see look anyone you don’t agree with is a troll’. That’s not at all what I have been saying. And the thing is…you know that. Way to be selective and reduce what I have been discussing wi you to ‘that’ as the thrust. Come off it.

    431. AlbertaScot says:

      After you strip away all those “isms” (many of which I have no notion of what they mean) that Trump was accused of being a card carrying member of.

      And that little bit of lad talk on a hot mike he got rightfully nailed to the wall over

      The No. 1 with a bullet, supremo thing that won it for him was the millions of industrial workers who have been betrayed by ruling Washington elites that hollowed out the traditional American economy and shipped it overseas.

      The AFL, CIO and Democratic Party used to be joined at the hip. Same thing for SLAB and the STU.

      Instead they got stabbed in the back and just like the American Rust Belt, Scotland’s once mighty industrial complex was sent away – just like the crofters – never to return.

      So spare me the Hillary Tears.

      Like the big D-Dog says, she had it coming – Big League!!!

    432. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 19:47,

      I agree with your point about specific policies losing votes. It offers opportunities for splits and people getting the huff over relative trivia.

      We have to allow that most everyone who genuinely supports indy does so for well-intentioned reasons, even if we can’t agree what those reasons might actually be.

      Independence can’t be seen to be the sole preserve of any one political faction (though some on the left do give that impression sometimes). I must be “ownable” by everyone across the (reasonable) spectrum, otherwise it won’t prevail.

      Reaching out is easier said than done, though, for reasons we all know only too well. It’s a pity that it always seems easier for lowest-common-denominator grievance politics to win support than practical good sense, let alone high-minded idealism. (Twas ever thus, I suppose.)

    433. Hadrianswall says:

      Apologies if already asked, but is Trump the most Scottish president ever?

    434. Iain More says:

      One final thought on this day. It escaped the attention of many that Kaine, Clintons nomination for Vice President was also a right wing nut job in my view.

      Since I have a feeling in relation to Trump that there will be another grassy knoll I will go read up on Pence because it could be soon be hello Mr President Pence.

    435. K1 says:

      ‘leftish idealogical garbage like this is damaging to the independence movement and why many thinking people will be put off from a movement that espouses it.’

      Evidence David. Where is you evidence, please provide your verifiable evidence for this rather ‘toxic’ ‘way’ of expressing your difference in view?

    436. yesindyref2 says:

      @Ian Brotherhood
      So a poster says one thing, and you immediately put words into their mouths they didn’t say, and attribute actions to them they didn’t do, and you think that’s cool? Don’t be a diddy.

      @K1
      Sturgeon’s doo, but not perfect.

      @Andrew McLean
      Because people disagree with one thing doesn’e mean they disagree with all

      @whoever else
      What the fuck happened to free and open debate?

    437. Thepnr says:

      @David Arnott

      No david I am not brainwashed, while you though sound exactly like a Daily Mail editorial with your “for every useless lazy twat that would rather sit at home, or pump out unloved benefit-babies, than work.”

      I would argue that unlike you I don’t do stereo types and in fact am capable of thinking for myself and making my own mind up.

      Your latest guff about blaming the parents is from exactly the same type of editorial.

      The fault of children being in poverty primarily lies at the feet of parents who have them without being in a financial position and with the sense of responsibility needed to support them. Shocking bit of truth eh? Especially when it comes from a guy who grew up in council house in the Thatcher years and was fed sometimes purely by the charity of family friends.

      Your not related to Michelle Mone are you, she also grew up in a council house?

      You despise people on benefits, you despise the fact the YOU have to pay for lazy people pumping out benefit payments.

      I despise your beliefs and all that would agree with them. You are a good example of the most selfish type of human being in existence. One that hates everything other than themselves and most of all their money.

      Independence supporter my arse, your no more than a bigoted troll.

    438. Marcia says:

      I’ve had a tiring day building the Anderson shelter in the back garden.

    439. Phronesis says:

      The eminent professor of cognitive science and linguistics George Lakoff comments on the threat of ‘extreme conservatism ‘ to humane government

      ‘Government has a moral duty to protect and empower its people. Private corporations have no such duty to citizens, which is why maintaining a robust Public is absolutely necessary to ensure everyone’s well-being, prosperity and safety…

      Privatisation is the transfer of public property, public functions and public institutions into private hands…where people’s basic protection and empowerment are concerned, it is the government’s duty to preserve the freedom of citizens…”Smaller government” means making the public good secondary and abandoning the sacral moral missions of the government’

      ‘The Little Blue Book. The Essential Guide to Thinking and Talking Democratic’

      The Democrats should have memorised Lakoff’s book.

      Back here in Scotland the independence movement is in fine fettle and ready for the next stage of the journey alongside our excellent FM who is leading a compassionate, humane government and supported by an educated electorate who understands moral complexity and how values link to policies (and can spot vacuous rhetoric immediately).

    440. Marcia says:

      Hadrianswall

      Here is a list of American Presidents with Scottish descent.

      http://www.electricscotland.com/history/scotsman/us_presidents.htm

    441. starlaw says:

      Someone has left the Troll cage open.
      or is it the Daily Wail writers competition, either way your all rumbled.

    442. yesindyref2 says:

      So let me see now.

      If you didn’t support Hillary Clinton you’re not an independence supporter

      If you’re not really fussed about nuclear weapons in spite of having lived most of your life on the Clyde and raised a family within 20 miles of a nuclear base you’re not an independence supporter

      If you don’t belive that Sturgeon should be mounted on a pedestal and adored 24 hours a day you’re not an independence supporter

      If you don’t believe the SNP is perfect you’re not an independence supporter

      If you don’t think Scotland should throw open its borders and take 5 million refugees instantly you’re not an independence supporter

      If you don’t think that a 4.7% unemployment rate compared to the UK one of 4.9% is good you’re not an independence supporter

      If you don’t think the named person act is absolutely perfectly drafted and written you’re not an independence supporter

      If you don’t think the Scottish Government weren’t totally faultless in the way they handled the Chines MoU you’re not an independence supporter

      If you don’t think Scotland should just declare UDI you’re not an independence supporter

      If you don’t think a currency union is the best thing for an Indy Scotland you’re not an independence supporter

      If you don’t think YES Scotland were absolutley brilliant the way they handled Indy Ref 1 you’re not an independence supporter

      If you don’t think …

    443. Robert Peffers says:

      @Artyhetty says: 9 November, 2016 at 12:09 pm

      ” … Also the sinister move by WM to remove 8(?) army bases from Scotland. We do not have our own defence force, or MOD, so that will look like we are utterly defenceless to the feart soft no voters.”

      That’s actually hilariously funny, Artyhetty.

      Large areas of Scotland include such historic UK/English military bases as Fort George, Fort Augustus and Fort William. These were built, manned and maintained to subdue the Scots.

      Now the UK/English parliament is hell bent upon closing down all forms of military presence in Scotland, with the exceptions of such as the areas they use for practice dropping bombs on or situating foreign powers nuclear missiles upon, and Scots people are complaining about it.

      Strikes me that the building and manning of such bases is meant to remind the Scots that Westminster are the masters and their removal may thus be a sign the Westminster/English parliament acknowledges the game is up and it is time to get their military property out of Scotland before we go our separate ways.

    444. K1 says:

      This ‘is’ free and open debate. What the fuck happened to you just answering some of the points being asked about your views on this yesindyref2? Your’e the one badgering others for their views on here in response to your views on here?

      Why can’t you ‘see’ this?

      I’ve already stated I don’t believe that this movement is about the SNP, that other events and factors will play a big part in the increase in support. The debate I was attempting to have with you was precisely on this point as you had expressed total agreement with David about it being a ‘leftie’ problem that would see a ‘decrease’ in support. You also stated that the ‘glass ceiling’ issue was a ‘loser position’ for her to take. I respond in full citing evidence of increasing support from women, non right wing policies in direct contrast to UK gov policy has assured a third consecutive terms et al.

      So where is your evidence that this ‘leftie’ agenda is the undoing of our independence cause. Cause that is exactly your position. But your response is to make out it is all about ‘me’ or ‘other’s being used about people having different views, but that’s not a truthful interpretation of what our conversation has entailed indyref2.

      I want to know how you align your position with David’s when there seem to be no verifiable evidence of your opinion on this matter. So it seems to be ideological opine that you are expressing. It is not factual or evidence based. And that is why some of us are resisting in continuing this dialogue.

      I repeat this ‘is’ free and open debate… in action.

    445. David Arnott says:

      @Thepnr

      So i dont shout that other people taxes should be paid on covering other peoples life choices and im a terrible person?

      Ill happily pay for free education, free health care, free disability benefits etc

      But i draw the line at paying for some wee tarts 3 kids from 3 different ned dads. Or some healthy, able bodied 20 year old who is too up himself to be a cleaner.

      If that makes me a fascist then Heil f**king Hitler.

      Im actually sitting in country typing this that DOES have real poverty, the kind of poverty that makes the typical dole dweller look like a pampered wee prince, and it sickens me.

      Anybody that thinks Scotland could make it while paying for anybody who lacks personal responsibility is living in a fluffy little dream and knows nothing of economics.

    446. K1 says:

      persisting in continuing…

    447. bugsbunny says:

      Ian Brotherhoods, I agree wholeheartedly about Daily Mail readers. I had an Aunty who used to pile her Daily Heil and redlined certain paragraphs so she could wave it in my face every time I went there. My uncle and her were ardent Tory Unionists. Every time I went they railed about the effing SNP/Labour/Trade Unionists/Europe/Irish/ Pa*is/Ni**ers/Fenians/The Unemployed/Disabled/Poofs/Muslims/Jews/even council workers/nhs workers. Suffice to say I stopped going.

      You can’t turn around the opinions of a bigot. Sometimes you must just walk away and wash your hands of them.

    448. maureen says:

      Thought the day was bad enough seeing that Trump won, then I got the dreaded WCA form in the post. Talk about depressing.

    449. K1 says:

      You have just ‘debased’ the debate yesindyref2. (@8.37pm)

      I’m out.

      ———————————————————————-

      Thepnr well said.

      Phronesis:

      ‘Back here in Scotland the independence movement is in fine fettle and ready for the next stage of the journey alongside our excellent FM who is leading a compassionate, humane government and supported by an educated electorate who understands moral complexity and how values link to policies (and can spot vacuous rhetoric immediately).’

      Thanks for that.

      IanB…aye..

      ‘Let them have their day. We don’t have much of a choice, eh?’

      Peace (Smallaxe) to a’bdy one and all.

    450. Liz g says:

      David Arnott 8.39
      The bit you don’t seem to get is that there isn’t a halfway house in this.
      You either want a decent Welfare state or you don’t.
      You canny pick and choose who is or isn’t worthy.
      If some people abuse it then so what .
      Not enough of them do to really matter when the figures are out.
      Answer me this though,you will pay a great deal more in tax to keep a bank robber in prison for 18 years than any wean that needs social security.
      What’s your thoughts on that.

    451. heedtracker says:

      Marcia says:
      9 November, 2016 at 8:31 pm
      I’ve had a tiring day building the Anderson shelter in the back garden.

      The nuclear winter will pretty much be the end of it. Putin’s got his super duper nuke bomb, Satan 2 which can destroy whole countries in a oner. Its a great day to be a far right sociopath.

      Cant see our tory Beeb making something like this again.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrHoMSRZOS4

    452. yesindyref2 says:

      @starlaw “Someone has left the Troll cage open. or is it the Daily Wail writers competition, either way your all rumbled.

      So you came all the way from the Daily Wail’s forum to do your troll act? Back, back I say!

    453. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      David Arnott,

      It is a truism that politics is the art of the possible. But I still can’t see your comparison of Nicola with Merkel. You seem to conflate principle with idealogy. Do we want a leader with no principles? Isn’t that something that people often criticise politicians for lacking? Not least in the wake of Brexit and the Trump victory, both based on utter fabrications and cynically unrealisable promises.

      The SNP has only one idealogy, and you know fine well what that is!

      If the Scottish FM had the full gamut of powers that a leader like Merkel has, that might be a good time to begin to hone the critical faculties. Until then we supporters of independence have to exercise the very pragmatism you evidently believe in, by ensuring that the movement remains unified and focussed on the necessary outcome.

      If you truly support independence, you have no obligation to agree with anyone else as to why, but you do have an obligation to co-operate constructively with those whose reasons are different. It’s a two-way street, and applies to us all.

    454. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @David Arnott (8.17) –

      ‘You have just made perfectly clear my point why childish, safe-space, leftish idealogical garbage like this is damaging to the independence movement and why many thinking people will be put off from a movement that espouses it.’

      I don’t remember addressing you directly.

      You seem to be making a whole stack of assumptions about me and my ‘narrative’ (whatever that’s supposed to mean) and unless we’ve ‘met’ before in some other forum (or perhaps here? How could I have forgotten?!) then I’d be very grateful if you could direct your cliche-ridden bombast elsewhere.

      In addition to whatever I’ve already made ‘perfectly clear’ to you, please note – I’m really not in the mood to attempt meaningful dialogue with someone who tars so-called ‘lefties’ with the same brush used by Yoon red-tops. The infantile stereotypes you use to illustrate your alarmist nonsense say much more about you than your imagined/imaginary targets.

    455. yesindyref2 says:

      @K1

      “I’m out.”

      Here, have one of mine.

    456. K1 says:

      ‘But i draw the line at paying for some wee tarts 3 kids from 3 different ned dads. Or some healthy, able bodied 20 year old who is too up himself to be a cleaner.’

      (is this not affy reminiscent of ‘another’ poster’s’ input from some time ago? 😉 )

    457. robertknight says:

      Well, if you thought that the good-ole Yookay was Uncle Sam’s beehatch before, then y’awl in for real treat!

      You’re gonna squeal like a pig y’hear, come on now piggy, squeal!

    458. Robert Peffers says:

      @desimond says: 9 November, 2016 at 1:22 pm:

      “Thank you…made me smile on such a sad day.
      You can go back under the bridge now.”

      We do seem to be getting more than our normal share of trolling numpties this thread, Desimond.

      I do hope the poor wee things are not all attempting to inhabit the space under the same bridge. If they are it must be getting rather overcrowded under there now.
      Not to mention that as they all spout utter shite it must be rather smelly too.

    459. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @yesindyref2 (8.25) –

      ‘So a poster says one thing, and you immediately put words into their mouths they didn’t say, and attribute actions to them they didn’t do, and you think that’s cool? Don’t be a diddy.’

      WTF?

      What is this in here tonight, a meeting of fucking Paranoics Anonymous?

      Seriously, get a fucking grip, eh?

    460. Ken500 says:

      David Cameron called Trump, ‘stupid and devisive’ etc. Westminster Tories wanted to ban him from Britain. Jeremy Corbyn’s wife is Mexican. Alexander Boris Johnston, the foreign secretary, has used various terms of offensive language. Insulting other countries. A vast list.

    461. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland
      Sorry, just saw your posting.

      Yes indeed, Independence needs to be a broad church to get above the roughly 48% it’s at now. Though I’d argue it’s already got a latent 55% with a hard Brexit – though that might not happen now with the high court case, UK parliamentary vote needed, and possibly some oversight of the negotiation process.

      My feeling is that we need to be challenging the misinformation everywhere, even down in the London media, with facts, numbers and information. People have been misled, and then it becomes a meme which normal decent people adopt. It only takes a polite informative challenge using offical sources of information to make a lot of people think again – TomJ did that practicallly single-handed on the Express.

      And posters should assemble a few brain cells before they use the word “troll”.

    462. yesindyref2 says:

      @Ian Brotherhood
      I thank you for your input, but it doesn’t meet present requirements. We’ll hold it on file in case it does in future.

    463. Liz g says:

      K1 8.58
      Don’t know about previous poster,sounds like he’s practising as Jeremy Kyle’s understudy.

    464. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      K1:

      is this not affy reminiscent of ‘another’ poster’s’ input from some time ago?

      Heh heh. Rather less subtle this time, though.

      That wee whinge about the moral turpitude of the feckless workshy did rather lose it for me. Seemed more about ranting away Daily Heil style than genuinely trying to engage as a true indy supporter.

      Pity, it would be a good thing to have as wide a range as possible of clear-headed political standpoints on here.

      I fear this fella isn’t that, though. Disappointing, but not too surprising maybe after suddenly sprouting up in the immediate wake of the Trump win.

    465. Thepnr says:

      But i draw the line at paying for some wee tarts 3 kids from 3 different ned dads. Or some healthy, able bodied 20 year old who is too up himself to be a cleaner.

      If that makes me a fascist then Heil f**king Hitler.

      Im actually sitting in country typing this that DOES have real poverty, the kind of poverty that makes the typical dole dweller look like a pampered wee prince, and it sickens me.

      Oh dear David, i think you are going on full tilt, the hole your digging for yourself justs keeps getting deeper.

      Anyone here who wasn’t aware of your views on your version of an ideal society certainly will be now.

      Your not the only one reading these threads that have seem abstract poverty first hand, is that what you really wish to comapre with an Independent Scotland.

      I too have worked in these places, Nigeria, Ghana, China, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan. Poverty that can make you weep and does.

      Unlike you though I don’t blame the poverty we have here in this country on the people suffering from it, all poverty is relative, yet you are only interested it would seem from your comments in the size of your own bank balance.

      You a a hypocrite of the highest order, trying to tell us of poverty in other countries and how sad you are yet refusing to acknowledged that a government here in Scotland should do something about the poverty in this country.

      No, it’s those lazy bastards to blame for dropping unloved benefit-babies. This is just about the sum of your argument against a safety net for the weakest and most vulnerable. Food banks are good as long as they don’t expect any donations from me is the attitude your posts convey.

      I’m sure though that you do want to see an end to poverty in Scotland, just as long as you don’t have to pay for it.

    466. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @David Arnott (8.39) –

      ‘But i draw the line at paying for some wee tarts 3 kids from 3 different ned dads. Or some healthy, able bodied 20 year old who is too up himself to be a cleaner.’

      Just out of curiosity…

      Are these real people you’re referring to?

      Do you know any of them? Have you seen them first-hand? You know their backgrounds and circumstances?

      Or did you just hear about them? Perhaps you just remember reading about them somewhere? Or someone trustworthy (whose name you can’t quite recall) once told you all about them?

      Or do you just ‘know’ that they exist because those stereotypes have been hammered into your head and they’re useful when you require a convenient scapegoat?

      Come on ‘David’, let’s have it – who are ‘these people’?

    467. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      by ensuring that the movement remains unified

      I don’t actually agree with this. There’s the SNP in the van, leading the charge. Sheer numbers and support dictate that.

      But then you’ve got the Greens who are very deliberately distancing themsleves from the SNP now, they can present a different view and get support the SNP can’t reach. Harvie said that was his route before the Holyrood election.

      Then you’ve got the likes of RISE, Bella, Commonspace, RIC doing their thing.

      Then there’s mavericks like Salmond, McAskill, Neil, McKenna, McWhirter, Wilson even Sillars getting to another lot entirely.

      Then there’s non-aligned, just talking to people with no particular place to go, driving around in their automobiles.

      Then there’s those precious few who need to be more like Michael Fry bravely tackling the other side of the political divide, supported in a way by G McI-K and BfS.

      Indy ref 1 was quite vanilla left, and it went as far as it could. We need to go a lot further this time, and unity will get in the way of that.

    468. Vestas says:

      Apparently I “called it” 27 months ago 😀

      A friend linked me a post I made on a gaming forum (Eve Online related) where I tried to explain the problem with Hillary for UK people with no idea about US politics.

      This is the bit that my friend linked today :

      “so the tl;dr is that Hillary Clinton won’t get elected President unless she’s in a straight race against stupider than Sarah Palin”.

      Frankly I never thought the Democrats would be dumb enough to select Hillary.

      However I guess it was her turn again & god forbid you have a “socialist” candidate (who’s about as socialist as Nick Clegg)….

      The US supreme court is looking rather dodgy now as well – unless a couple of “democrat” judges survive until 2021 (unlikely) Trump may have a relatively free hand to change it for 20 years (3+ appointments). Probably not good news for women as Roe vs Wade is always a target for the religious nutters on the right.

    469. Ken500 says:

      lf Trump was Scottish he couldn’t be President. You have to be born in the US. You can be a migrant family. Like Trump’s. Look what happened to Cameron. Lasted a couple of years. Then toast.

      Trump likes women. (a little too much?) Maybe Nicola can talk him round. With kid gloves and disinfectant. Wash his mouth out with soap.

    470. David Arnott says:

      @ Ianbrotherhood im talking even about my own family. So enough of the sanctimonious pish.

      @ Thepnr – No its you who want other people to pay for other people to eat. Not me. You do that through demanding that everyone get benefits and who do you think pays for that? The only sensible thing anyone can do is have a sense of personal responsibility, with some kind social safety net. Im not rich, but i get that you probably arent either otherwise youd probably be the one pissed that your taxes are being spent on the feckless 😉

      Just remember for every young woman who is motivated to get pregnant because she has the daddy state paying for the kid it takes money from the people who really need it. You dont have a clue, do you?

    471. Ken500 says:

      How long will Trump survive?

    472. Looks like Clinton won the most votes,

      46.9% DID NOT VOTE
      25.6% voted Clinton
      25.5% voted Trump

      almost 50% not bothering/caring to vote.

    473. yesindyref2 says:

      @Thepnr
      I’m off to do some work in a minute, but you’re unlikely to get an answer, as the poster was set upon by a shrieking mob for expressing different views. It’s counter-productive.

    474. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @yesindyref2 –

      Let’s just ignore the sarcasm at 9.11 and get straight to this:

      ‘Indy ref 1 was quite vanilla left, and it went as far as it could. We need to go a lot further this time, and unity will get in the way of that.’

      How do you propose to win Indyref2 without ‘unity’?

    475. Thepnr says:

      @yesindyref2

      Support for Independence must only remain unified in that one sphere.Their support for Independence.

      I really don’t care where that support comes from, the far left, far right or those straight down the middle. They can differ as much as they like in policies and goals and vision.

      All that matters though that they remain unified on just one thing. Independence.

      Some of those posting today were not talking of Unity, they talked of getting rid of Nicola Sturgeon or refusing to support Independence while she was still in charge. That’s not unity, that’s being divisive.

    476. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 21:22,

      I wasn’t advocating some kind of hegemony eg. of the SNP. If anyone can win over anyone to indy by their unique take on things, that’s just fine by me.

      All I mean is that pro-indy groups shouldn’t snipe or undermine each other from a narrow party-political point of view. The last thing we need is self-indulgent grandstanding.

      I sometimes get the impression that the smaller groupings (esp. the Greens, being the largest) feel overshadowed at times and thus react by attempting to differentiate themselves in ways that make others feel they’re merely being divisive. It’s just human nature but it needs to be managed constructively.

      In these uncertain times everyone gets just a bit antsy. Hopefully we’ll get refocussed again very soon and it’ll be “game on” with everyone pulling together.

    477. Liz g says:

      Vestas @ 9.23
      Aye it must be very worring for woman in the US as to how the debate over there reproductive rights will go.
      With this lot in charge.
      What amazes me is why in the 21 century it’s still an issue for the politicians,clergy and the court’s.
      Or even if some farther up this thread are to be taken seriously,the tax pay’er.
      For the avoidance of doubt…A Woman’s body is the busines of her and her doctor.
      And if that makes me Left wing…then Peace out man….

    478. Robert Peffers says:

      @Clootie says:9 November, 2016 at 3:34 pm

      “@M4rkyboy 3:12
      …Whit!!!”

      Aye! Clootie it’s getting afu crowded under you wee puckle brig.

      Haes onyane telt the local cooncil about the owercrowdin and the risk tae public health frae aa yon shite whits bein blethered ben yon brig?

    479. @yesindyref2

      “We need to go a lot further this time, and unity will get in the way of that”.

      you sound like a dangerous lunatic,

      hopefully just to much to drink,and sober up in the morning.

    480. Thepnr says:

      @David Arnott

      “No its you who want other people to pay for other people to eat. Not me. You do that through demanding that everyone get benefits and who do you think pays for that?”

      I haven’t said I want people to survive on benefits, think you’ll find I said that there should be no tax credits for example but they were necessary because your much trumpeted entrepreneurs were not obliged to pay a sufficient wage to their employees.

      I don’t want anyone on benefits but there must always be some, disabled or the ill for example. Full employment with as a minimum being payed the living wage would be my goal.

      I don’t mind paying my share towards these benefits either, just as I already do towards our NHS, state pension and yes even defence. It’s called taxes, not just income tax but VAT and NI payments, excise duties you name it.

      I would much rather MY taxes weren’t used to reduce Inheritance tax for the extremely wealthy as happened in the budget when the Tories at the same time introduced the bedroom tax.

      It’s called getting your priorities right. Which are yours?

    481. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @David Arnott (9.33) –

      ‘im talking even about my own family. So enough of the sanctimonious pish.’

      I don’t give a fuck if it sounds ‘sanctimonious’ or not – you have no right to extrapolate your personal experiences in order to make sweeping statements about many hundreds of thousands of other folk – in Scotland alone – whose needs are desperate and real.

      You’ve had a good run on here tonight, but *NB* don’t fucking annoy me again.

    482. Thepnr says:

      Very boring now this discussion, won’t be responding again. My apologies to the other posters who just want to get back on topic.

    483. yesindyref2 says:

      @Ian Brotherhood
      By being welcoming and open, not aggressively dismissive.

      @Scot Finlayson
      I’m afraid your jibe, apart from being well off-target (I rarely drink these days), is a classic example of what NOT to do to encourage people to vote YES.

      @Thepnr / @Robert J. Sutherland
      Indeed.

    484. Andrew Mclean says:

      David Arnoot

      Yes that’s the reason, bloody young girls from the sink estates, eating all the cakes.

      Daily mail shite!

      What’s next child refugees not drowned enough for you!

    485. Ken500 says:

      ‘Woman motivated to get pregnant’? By male sperm. It takes two, baby. It take two.

    486. Liz g says:

      David Arnott @ 9.33
      I forgive you for not answering my last question to you
      Do you think you could answer this one.
      How do you explain the motivation of young women how have lots of children in countries with no big daddy state?
      Is there a different form of nature at work ?
      Why are they having more children than they can feed,whats their cunning plan?
      You see I never knew that there were tax pay’er consideration’s involved in these decisions,so I am naturally curious about the other side of the coin.
      Oh and if you don’t mind do you know in Scotland at what age these girls decide to become Tart’s and fleece the poor tax pay’er.. primary school/high school,or is it a knowledge they are born with ?
      Do enlighten us!

    487. K1 says:

      David clearly has some ‘personal’ issue which are being conflated wi the political policies (that he thinks emanate from the SNP) that he seems to be assuming ‘created’ his personal ‘hell’. He is also extrapolating that this is a widespread ‘phenomena’.

      Is this your ‘verifiable’ evidence that supports your assertions David? That a change in the social security system that would take away the safety net for (all) our citizens, will somehow ‘solve’ what you ‘perceive’ as the cause of your family difficulties?

      Is this what will get ‘your’ family member aged 20 years old off his arse?

      This a rather fractured outlook that you have developed for what you obviously find a very difficult situation within your own family dynamics. But you yourself are blaming your family for their current state of difficulty too. So is essence as far as I am following your logic:

      If the benefits are taken away (SNPbad). Your 20 year old will get a job,(lazy bums will no longer be lazy bums) and the ‘tart’ (whore, bad woman, leg opener, oh and of course that does not make you a misogynist) wi the three kids fathered by the ‘neds’ (low education, nae employment prospects,/waste of space) will miraculously…what?

      Will they become what ‘you’ want them to be David?

      Will they become ‘strivers’ instead of ‘scroungers’?

    488. Stoker says:

      Marcia wrote on 9 November, 2016 at 8:31 pm

      “I’ve had a tiring day building the Anderson shelter in the back garden.”

      By the looks of things on this thread Marcia i hope you’ve reinforced it well.
      😉
      _____

      WTF? What is this in here tonight, a meeting of fucking Paranoics Anonymous?

      Shit!
      Who said that?
      Did you hear that, folks?
      Ah think we’re being watched.

      LLF at this thread, beats tv all day long.
      🙂

    489. Mike says:

      I wonder if Melanie Trump will run for office in the future?
      Wont that be a kicker?

    490. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Agreed 100% @ Thepnr says at 9:39 pm

      “Support for Independence must only remain unified in that one sphere.Their support for Independence.”

      Arguments regarding an iScotlands welfare state provision (David Arnott) are the same as EU Membership, NATO Membership etc. etc. etc.

      Independence 1st

      Party Politics 2nd

      Lets all concentrate on Scotland regaining her independence rather than playing the divide and lose game Westminster and it’s Yoon stooges in Holyrood would love to have us Scots play.

      Following Independence Day proper the battle for the first truly iScots Government can begin with that next Scottish General Election.

      Independence FIRST everything else is to play for then

      The votes of all supporters of iScotland will then be there for the asking by Parties of ALL persuasions as will those of the NO side.

    491. Andrew Mclean says:

      Wonder what the next pretend yes supporter will say, come on chaps, every attempt so far has been rumbled before you got far enough to cause damage, not very intelligent are we, but then you are arse liking Torys. Just doing your duty to queen and country are we.?

      Honestly the state of trolls these days! Absolutely no political acumen whatsoever. Quite depressing whey you think about it!

      Stinks of the Scotsman lunatic brigade in here tonight. Recognise the class of posts, vile really.
      Quite surprised some well Kent faces are taken in though, really quite surprised.

    492. Robert Peffers says:

      @M4rkyboy says: 9 November, 2016 at 4:03 pm:

      “You couldn’t be more wrong.
      Concerned SNP supporter despairing at the direction the party has went in. You seem emblematic of one of the problems they’ve stumbled into. That is, the partisanship in a National movement.”

      O.k. M4rkyboy, let’s just put you where you belong, shall we?

      You are totally misinformed and you know nothing whatsoever of how the SNP, as a party, works that sets it apart from all other political parties in the United Kingdom.

      First of all the party is mainly funded by the members and not by big business or foreign money. Second of all, unlike every other party, neither the, elected to office, members of the parliamentary party nor the cabinet nor the FM or leader of the Westminster group make SNP party policy.

      Every card carrying member of the party has exactly the same number of votes on party policy as the FM -one vote each.

      Not only that but it is the delegates sent to national conference who debate and vote upon policy as proposed, seconded, amended and voted upon at branch level. by any branch and then from any constituency association.

      That is how party policy is made. Now look at the others! The Parliamentary Labour Party are at loggerheads with the party membership. They are all against their party leader who was elected by the card carrying party members. Yet the Parliamentary Labour party think they have the right to dictate to the leader and the party members.

      At Westminster the Prime Minister can even decide that the UK will go to war with anyone he/she decides they don’t like.

      You do not have an idea of what you are posting about, In any case Nicola’s decision to take sides may well be to side with the vast majority of World powers who, by the large, have been at war with the USA and their special relationship buddies at Westminster. Both warmongering, war criminal led USA/UK regimes are almost universally hated in this old World.

      Your obvious agenda is no more than the usual Yoon Loon SNP BAD Yoon Loon mantra – take it with you as you leave – and mind the door doesn’t smack you in the arse as it has a strong spring.

    493. carjamtic says:

      At the ‘Off the Peg Tory Bullyboy Shop’ – “you can choose from the following sir…the ‘slowest’ or ‘weakest’ or ‘poorest’ or the ‘most vulnerable’ in society……now have a right good kick,have another one sir”.

      Why not really do the ‘brave’ thing,(like Iceland) why not jail the real takers,the suits,that do way far more damage to everyone “nice tie your wearing sir,suits you sir”.

      Banker apologist,is not a good hashtag though,but don’t worry them good ole boys will be drinking their whiskey and rye and eating some (Made in China) ‘Homemade’ American Pie,safe in the knowledge that you’ve got the ‘situation in hand’.

      #resistsrhymingslangurges

    494. Let this result be a lesson to those who keep saying “Let’s wait till the polls show us well ahead” before we go for Indy 2.

      We do not own the polls we do not pay for most of them, we do not set the questions,we do not chose the demographic and we do not “weigh” them.
      They are fashioned to produce the result the clients want to see.

      Anybody that thinks we will ever get a succession of polls showing us likely to win independence needs their head examined.

    495. Liz g says:

      Andrew McLean @ 10.10
      Don’t think anyone was really taken in Andrew.
      Just not letting the comments stand unchallenged.
      Sometimes it can go on for a wee while sometimes it’s shut down right away.
      Depends on the mood,but I don’t think anyone is unaware of what is going on.
      Also on a day like today tis a distraction to be sure.

    496. Capella says:

      Infallible, John McTernan and Kezia Dugdale are. It’s uncanny. My only fear is that they will start to support Independence.

      I see there’s been a suggestion upthread that the most popular and admired politician in the UK, if not also Europe, should change.

      Aye, right!



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