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Wings Over Scotland

Colour blind

Posted on November 08, 2016 by


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330 to “Colour blind”

  1. turnbull drier says:

    Very good Chris…

    Hobbsons choice.. (Is “none of the above” still an option?)

  2. Dorothy Devine says:

    Lovely cartoon Chris , but what choice have the poor buggers got?

    It would be nice to think that big money could not influence elections and maybe the world is being changed from the ground up.

  3. Ken500 says:

    Sick of the whole damn farce. Congress holds the power and changes every two years. Lame duck Presidents. They can’t walk and talk at the same time and have ruined the world economy. Along with their special relationship Westminster/Unionists now blown apart by Brexit.

    There are twice as many US students in the UK as Indian. May makes no mention of blocking them. Racist?

  4. Ruglonian says:

    Well done Chris! We can always rely on an alternative perspective from you, keep them coming 🙂

  5. Robert Peffers says:

    Belter, Chris, and right on cue.

  6. hamish says:

    The choice between Gonorrhea and Syphilis.

    Bernie Sanders gave uis some hope but now ? Vote Green ?

  7. galamcennalath says:


    Funny how both Trumpettes and Brexiteers want to make their countries great again.

    Which parts of the past do they selectively want to embrace? Because there are many aspects about both countries’ pasts which are best left there!

  8. Sunniva says:

    Thank goodness this will soon be over. Sick to the teeth of the whole ‘debate’.

  9. Brian Powell says:

    A UK version would be good too. I heard that many voted out of the EU as a protest vote against austerity and lack of engagement in how they are governed, but that vote left them in the hands of the Tory Government that had been in power for 6 years and was the source of austerity ,and now they have even less power than before. The Tories now have more, much more.

    ‘I ain’t no racist, is voting Tory’.

  10. carjamtic says:

    On the money again Chris 😉

    Jambalaya,crawfish pie,file gumbo and then the World Series….woooowoooo.


  11. winifred mccartney says:

    No doubt about it the Americans are in a real dilema – both parties have grave responsibility for the choices they have given the voters – if this is what the system throws up its time to change the system – money talks and it is destroying america and the world. It is shameful what these two people are doing to the reputation of america and its democracy – it is becoming a laughing stock and a terrible example to emerging democracies. Hobsons choice right enough. H probably the lesser of two evils.

  12. Inkall says:

    I look forward to the matching Hillary piece.

    Maybe “I don’t care about the emails or the donations to the Clinton foundation. It’s time we had a woman.”

  13. Arbroath1320 says:

    Great cartoon as always Chris.

    Of course I know what your alternative cartoon looks like as well. 😉

    Why it’s wee Hilary dressed up like Rambo surrounded by mounds of money of course! 😀

  14. sassenach says:

    galamcennalath @ 8-58am

    Spot on, the word “AGAIN” gives the notion that there is a ‘beautiful’ past that we should all aspire to – total nonsense, whether it be Britains colonialism or America’s warmongering.

    Gie’s a break!

    Excellent cartoon, Chris.

  15. Valerie says:

    I feel sorry for Americans that reject both choices, and the likes of Jill Stein, who has no chance.

    What has made me a bit sick in the last year, is all the praise heaped on Obama, when he has turned out to be nothing more than an entertainer.

    He has sweet FA to show for his presidency, wars and fracking, and race relations in the toilet. He couldn’t close Gitmo in all those years.

  16. Baldeagle58 says:

    I’ve said to my American friends on Facebook that I sometimes despare for them and their country.
    Out of all their huge population, Trump and Clinton are the best they can find for President?
    Lord help us all if Trump gets in, but I don’t think Clinton will be much better.
    Cracking cartoon, btw Chris….

  17. Arbroath1320 says:

    Valerie says:

    He has sweet FA to show for his presidency, wars and fracking, and race relations in the toilet. He couldn’t close Gitmo in all those years.

    That is not strictly true Valerie. Don’t forget he DOES have the Nobel Peace Prize. This was “awarded” to him months after he took office the first time based, allegedly, on what he had said, prior to be coming President, about how he would be stopping all the wars the USA was involved in. 😀

    Now then folks lets have a wee count back here shall we? 😉

    How many wars has oor dear Obama ACTUALLY stopped in his eight years as president?

    Well by my reckoning the total of wars stopped by wee Obby is … erm … NONE!

    This raises the question, in my my wee brain cell at least.

    Shouldn’t wee Obby return his Nobel Peace Prize because he was awarded it under false pretences!

  18. Nana says:

    Friends who live in the states are horrified. They were voting Bernie and now say they will vote for Jill Stein.

    Clinton or Trump geez what a choice.

    Last links on previous thread would have been better here, both relate to the horror show in the US.


    Obama administration was run by bankers. Go watch the latest Redacted tonight on youtube.

  19. Macart says:

    That’s about right and oh so familiar.

    Neatly done Chris.

  20. Marcia says:

    What a dreadful election campaign the Americans have had. I’d rather not have Trump with his hands on the Nuclear button thank you.

  21. heedtracker says:

    Its this boil on the arse of humanity what won it. Well this one and a few others.

    Ofcourse tory BBC send his boot boys to cover it all, autumnal hair dye, lashings of vote planet toryboy.

  22. heedtracker says:

    How many ways can toryboy’s in Scotland use it all to smear Scottish democracy? Loads.

    David Torrance ?@davidtorrance 19h19 hours ago
    My @heraldscotland column on why the United States will end up getting the president it deserves:

  23. Breeks says:

    There is something broken about Western democracy.

    Governments no longer seem to speak for the people, but represent partisan factions and lobbyist muscle with the thickest wallet.

    I remember the leadership debate which excluded Alex Salmond, who at the time was the only political leader in the UK who was properly elected with an outright majority, but that didn’t even register as relevant in a Uk leadership debate.

    I don’t think it is democracy at fault. It is simply that the media is utterly reckless, disruptive, hysterical and xenophobic, but speaks with much greater volume than our wall flower democracy.

    I don’t approve of all the mucking about with voting systems, d’Hontd, STV systems and such. Democracy should give you a result, even an imperfect result, instead of a logarithm open to multiple interpretation which sees the same bad pennies returned to office and TV stardom despite repeated failure at the ballot box. Democracy don’t forget is meant to get rid of the government you don’t want isn’t it? But the angst I have about that is nothing by comparison with the shocking halitosis we suffer from the bloated, sweaty, toad of a media we have here which continually oozes its toxin into our water.

    Both before Indy, and after, we have an ugly problem we really need to address. The media has grown much too big for its boots, and too shrill about defending its freedoms; freedoms it feels free to abuse with impunity. I support freedom of speech and freedom of expression, but not to the extent the media can foist its own corruptions and manipulated agendas upon a public which is a captive audience by state monopoly, but muted without an effective right of reply. When Scotland does become independent, I think we very much do need a state broadcaster, but a state broadcaster who is lumbered with d’Hontd type constraints to ensure fair representation at the microphone, to reflect the fair representation we expect at the ballot box. But rather than seeing it as a constraint, it should be a duty and responsibility akin to being a umpire in a sporting context; central to fair play, but playing no part itself.

    Perhaps a d’Hontded media would quell the need for a d’Hontded anything else. It’s a worthwhile philosophy, it’s just being applied in the wrong place perhaps….

  24. gordoz says:

    Chris shouldn’t the spelling be color?

  25. heedtracker says:

    Breeks says:
    8 November, 2016 at 10:08 am
    There is something broken about Western democracy.

    In the UK all of that can be distilled into three letters. BBC.

  26. Brian Powell says:

    Interesting, everybody saying what a poor choice the US has, yet the UK voted Tory and the one part of the UK that very definitely didn’t vote Tory seems unable to make sure it doesn’t have the Tory Gov deciding its future.

    Scotland has great choice, but doesn’t seem to want it. Seems to be waiting and waiting until the worst option, the one it didn’t vote for, becomes the only option.

  27. Andrew McLean says:

    Baldeagle58 says:9:40

    “Out of all their huge population, Trump and Clinton are the best they can find for President?”

    If I was an American I would answer, for the nation that supposedly was the inventor of parliamentary democracy, why is the divine right of kings being used to trigger article 50?

    Why in the land that supposedly started the newspaper industry, do you no longer have an unbiased press.

    Why in the country that 1984 was written do you not see the “Big Brother” that is the BBC political wing using the same techniques.

    Why In the country that fought against the rule of a dictator in 1939 do you promote a Nazi like Farrage to be on national television every night, even though the man has no political mandate, and given publicity to threaten the democratic process with mob rule on the streets.

    And in Scotland you have a corrupting press and politicians, like the wee lassie Kezia, and a Buffalo rider, who aide and abet the unionist press to destroy your countries economic future for a “flag” to the extent that even China, no stranger to criticism thinks “fuck that”.

    Physician, heal thyself would be my retort.

  28. Skip_NC says:

    Winifred McCartney, it was the people who chose, via the primary process. Frankly, we have no one to blame. Democrats could have chosen Sanders or O’Malley. Either one would have been a safer pair of hands than Clinton. I voted Sanders in the primary and wrote in Jill Stein when I voted last Friday.

    There was an interesting article on over the weekend about how Clinton operatives had built up Trump during the primary to knock out the sane choices – Bush and Rubio were the main targets. Unknown and unseen people who may soon get cushy, taxpayer funded jobs set up the other side of this contest. Again, though, that is the people’s fault and demonstrates the intellectual desert in the brains of too many people.

    BTW, for those who want an early sense of how this is going, Indiana & North Carolina will probably declare relatively early – 1am or so – and will give a good idea of how the night may turn out. The easiest route to a Trump presidency includes a route through rural NC and Indiana will give us clues to the senate race as well.

  29. Breastplate says:

    The Americans who are unhappy with both candidates should vote for Jill Stein and keep their dignity intact.
    Quite simple really.

  30. heedtracker says:

    As the big day for one of the world’s biggest democracys gets going, this is progressive liberal The Guardian headline news today. We’re shackled to idiots Scotland. Its not enough to say stuff like, well the UK’s only the size of Florida.

    Prince Harry lambasts press over Meghan Markle coverage

    Royal attacks ‘racial undertones’ of British press coverage of relationship with the mixed race American actor

  31. Bob Mack says:

    Here’s hoping we get the least mad President in America. Both have dangerous outlooks,but one has more experience than the other.

    Just as an aside, Nicola has gone down an absolute storm with the young people and the Professors at Sheffield. The general concensus was that she was head and shoulders above any other politician on these islands.

    The only people to criticise her were—–yep, the reporters covering the event.

  32. Capella says:

    Our media have been obsessed by the US election for weeks now – top item on BBC radio and website every day. Yet there’s no real analysis of how the system works and who really makes decisions. It’s more like The Hunger Games than documentary.

    All the BBC radio staff are going to be sitting up half the night listening to Jim Naughtie’s feverish reports.

    It’s like Rome and UK is a wee colony, and Scotland is a wee colony of the wee colony. Eat your BREXIT cereal and shut-up. It gives democracy a bad name.

    Nice cartoon though!

  33. Arbroath1320 says:

    Brian Powell says:
    8 November, 2016 at 10:18 am

    Interesting, everybody saying what a poor choice the US has, yet the UK voted Tory and the one part of the UK that very definitely didn’t vote Tory seems unable to make sure it doesn’t have the Tory Gov deciding its future.

    Think I’d question that statement Brian.

    Britain did not vote Tory only around 37% of Britain’s voters chose Tory. This means 63% of Britain’s voters did nor vote Tory but thanks to the way the FPTP system works we ended up with a Tory government. I believe not one Tory M.P. won their seat with more than 50% of the constituency vote. Not exactly a very DEMOCRATIC way to elect a politician but hey ho!

    p.s. I didn’t intend that last bit as a cue to debate the various voting systems just making a point about current FPTP system.

  34. Chris Cairns says:

    @Gordoz – The Rev is in charge of headlines 🙂

  35. Capella says:

    @ Skip_NC
    it was the people who chose, via the primary process. Frankly, we have no one to blame. Democrats could have chosen Sanders or O’Malley.

    What about the “Super Delegates”? Didn’t they “trump” (sorry) the people’s choice with their hundreds of votes? That looked to me like a way of over-ruling the people.

    The “caucus” system seems to be highly corruptible too. Seems like the easiest thing in the world to bus in hundreds of students to pile on votes for your favoured candidate?

  36. galamcennalath says:

    Andrew McLean says:

    Physician, heal thyself would be my retort.

    Very much so! UKOK is now in one Hell of a mess.

    What I fear about the US is the power to destroy the world being at the finger tips of one person. Then when that one person, either of the likely winners, seems distinctly untrustworthy the fear become acute!

    Whether their democratic system is actually bust, I wouldn’t like to say. I will say categorically that I believe the UKOK system is in tatters!

    The UKOK is now so bad, where do you start to describe the mess? Unelected HoLs, FPTP giving power to a party with 37% backing, attempts to bypass parliament, disregard for anything outside the London Bubble, four subtly different Tory parties, a media which hinders democracy. The system has given rise to millions feeling so disenfranchised they don’t vote, or when they do opt for Brexit or fascist leaning parties.

    And when Scotland attempts to find its own democratic feet, the UKOK system does everything in its power to thwart it.

    Is the US really that bad?

  37. Arbroath1320 says:

    Bob Mack says:
    8 November, 2016 at 10:42 am

    Here’s hoping we get the least mad President in America. Both have dangerous outlooks,but one has more experience than the other.

    In my view, held by many on here and elsewhere I believe, neither “candidate” is a worthy “winner tonight.

    Whilst Clinton may have more experience, from being a previous Secretary of State, I do not see that as any sort of real argument for anyone to vote for her. If my memory serves me right Obama was in fact in the same situation as Trump the Mump is in now with “no experience” and look what happened to him … White House … Nobel Peace Prize for “promises” made before becoming President …

    In so far as her “experience” goes remember SHE was the one who pushed for Libya to bombed to create regime change. HER actions, or rather inaction beforehand, caused the unnecessary death of the U.S. Ambassador and a number of U.S. personnel. Still she got what she wanted … unrest in the Middle East/North Africa. I believe she was also involved in the decision to attack Syria again to generate regime change. We all know how well THAT particular action is going … or rather is NOT going don’t we?

    In fact as far as “experience” goes I’d suggest the biggest amount of experience she has is from reaping in large wads of dough from Wall Street, Saudi, Qatar and other Middle East countries including I suspect that peace loving country Israel!

  38. Dr Jim says:

    Have no fear American friends if Hillary gets in nothing will change, if Donald gets in the people who actually run America wont let him change anything

    One thing is certain, you’ll be no better or worse off than you are now and the folks with the real power and money will be just fine

    We have the same thing right here in Lil old Englandshire
    Sectarianism? We got it, Racism? We got it, Bigotry? We got a ton of that shit, But what we share mostly in both of our countries is our special relationship with stupidity

    It’s the new currency

  39. bjsalba says:


    Obama did not get a lot done because he was up against a Republican Senate. Until the masses get the message that POTUS is not all powerful, and they need to elect Democrats to the House of Representatives and the Senate, they will suffer.

  40. ahundredthidiot says:

    First NS, now Chris for Wings. It’s just disappointing.

    Is there no refuge from this madness.

    Anyone supporting either of these two idiots, by attacking their ‘less preferred option’, is the real loser here…Nicola included.

    Real question here is why the US is being allowed to DOMINATE news headlines in the UK.

  41. ahundredthidiot says:

    ……Forgot to mention Chris….’colour’ has no ‘u’ in it.

  42. Stoker says:

    Sunniva wrote on 8 November, 2016 at 9:04 am:

    “Thank goodness this will soon be over. Sick to the teeth of the whole ‘debate’.”

    That’s exactly what i, momentarily, thought just the other day but no sooner had i thought it when i realised we’ll then be swamped with months and months all about the winner.

    Sorry to be the oracle of depression and despair my friend.
    (ODD….for short!)

  43. The last time we saw this guy was outside Ibrox 2012 shrieking:-

    ‘The bottom line is, the big hoose must stay open!’

    Gets around doesn’t he? (Can somebody tell him that it’s not the same ‘orange’?)
    As usual, well drawn, Cairns.

  44. Breastplate says:

    Arbroath 1320, I completely agree.
    One thing that has fascinated me in this campaign is how people justify to themselves that being a person complicit in the death of thousands of children seems to be better than being a person who is uncouth and calls people names.

  45. Free Scotland says:

    The future of the U.S.A. does not look too bright if, in a nation of over 320 million people, the best they can come up with are Clinton and Trump.

    Let’s face it, only two good things ever came out of America: peanut butter and Gibson guitars.

  46. Bob Mack says:

    I do not prefer a person who was complicit in the death of thousands of children.
    What I do know is that Trump is a complete Narcissist clmplete with every diagnostic trait of that condition,and his Presidency would probably result in the death of millions of children.

    Not much of a choice really.

  47. Stoker says:

    ahundredthidiot wrote on 8 November, 2016 at 11:03 am:

    “Real question here is why the US is being allowed to DOMINATE news headlines in the UK.”

    Simples! To bury all the real shit we should be hearing about.
    And their official reason for the coverage….well….don’t you realise just how important the planets most powerful country is?
    (That was sarcasm by-the-by 😉 )

  48. Arbroath1320 says:

    I totally agree Breastplate.

    As we all know this Presidential campaign has been the ultimate race to the bottom of the sewer. Anyone who votes for either of these two “candidates” must really make sure they have a strong peg firmly attached to their nose before placing their cross in my view.

    On wee upside though. I saw over on Twitter someone asking the question:

    “what would happen if everyone wrote Bernie Sanders across their ballot paper?” 😀

    I’m the first to admit that even Bernie probably had his problems but they were NOTHING compared to the shit load of problems Clinton and Trump bring to the White house!

    I really want to believe that Americans are intelligent people and they CAN see through the bull shite from Clinton and Trump but I really do worry what they will end up with:

    1) a racist brain deid numpty who thinks he can do and say anything because he is a TV “celebrity”

    2) A lying two faced money grabbing hypocritical warmonger

    Neither gives me much hope for the next four years but based on her past “experience” Clinton really does worry me. With all of her warmongering ideals I do get seriously concerned SHE and not Trump is the one who is most dangerous with the nuke button to hand. With all her anti Russia rhetoric in the lead up to this “event” SHE is much more likely, in my view, to start WWIII with Russia!

  49. galamcennalath says:

    O/T and back across the Atlantic.

    The Telegraph’s headlines can be so astonishing unreal ….

    Manufacturing growth beats forecasts as industry shows no impact from Brexit

    FFS, Brexit hasn’t happened yet!

    Move on and accept Brexit, Theresa May tells embattled Remainers

    ‘Embattled’ more accurately applies to May now.

    Brexit will refresh the way we think and operate in business, says Co-op chairman

    Aye, Brexit is nothing but good news for good old Blighty.

    Imagine any newspaper being so overwhelmingly positive about Scottish independence? No, I can’t either.

  50. Skip_NC says:

    Capella, you do have a point about superdelegates. The Associated Press did do some influencing by reporting that Clinton was closer to the winning line than she really was in the primary. However, regular voters went to the polls and actively cast their votes for Clinton. I think they were gravely mistaken. We all own our votes.

    I agree with you about the caucuses. As they are, essentially, party-run, they are open to abuse. Primaries are government-run and there is more recourse to the courts if there are irregularities.

  51. Stoker says:

    Jack Collatin wrote on 8 November, 2016 at 11:11 am:

    “The last time we saw this guy was outside Ibrox 2012 shrieking:- ‘The bottom line is, the big hoose must stay open!’”

    LLF Jack!
    Aye, forgot all about him, it’s a dead ringer.

  52. louis.b.argyll says:

    I’ll give Clinton 1 difficult term..if she wins..gulp.

    Unfortunately but predictably, the right is rising in the States
    In 3 years from now the Republicans would be able to reverse the 10% negativity of Trump by fielding ANYONE ELSE..

    Or TRUMP REPENTS! Celebrity style, cultural and spiritual cleansing goes down well right across America. Go with middle-class Latino running partner next time.

    His solid support is almost mysterious to European observers. Any one of his dozens of gaffes, would be enough to sink any normal politician.

    The World gets scarier as values are eroded by fear and fudge.

  53. Arbroath1320 says:

    Free Scotland says:
    8 November, 2016 at 11:19 am

    The future of the U.S.A. does not look too bright if, in a nation of over 320 million people, the best they can come up with are Clinton and Trump.

    Let’s face it, only two good things ever came out of America: peanut butter and Gibson guitars.

    Just read that post out to my partner FS and her reply was … YESSSSSS. 😀 This was closely followed by “and a 1977 Pontiac Trans Am!” 😀

  54. robertknight says:

    At least it’ll make it a hat-trick of democratic stupidity…

    The Scots vote to remain in the UK

    The English and Welsh vote to leave the EU

    The Yanks, (not for the first time), vote to place an idiot in the Oval Office

  55. Arbroath1320 says:

    I seem to remember Skip that there were “issues” with a number of caucuses, or whatever 😀 , being decided by the toss of a coin. If memory serves the same states doing this also, later on, proved to have “issues” with vote counts, allegedly. Hmm …

  56. Breastplate says:

    Bob Mack, stick to the facts. Don’t jettison logic and reason just because you dislike someone.
    On the subject of the future, do you use a crystal ball or tea leaves?

  57. Breastplate says:

    Arbroath 1320, the Americans are in a bit of a predicament but I’m not sure they should take any notice of us Scots as we managed to fuck up our choice in September 2014

  58. Bob Mack says:


    You up for a challenge this morning?

    Mr Trump can easily be diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. That has severe implications in any sphere of life,but more so for a guy with the arsenal America has at its’ disposal. I suggest you refer to ICD 10 for the symptoms of such a disorder.

    Clinton may well be bad and yes we have experience of her acts,but believe me when I tell you they could fade into a pale shade of what Mr Trump could be capable of unleashing on the world.

    My career was built on logic and reason.

  59. TD says:

    I see that many commenters today are scathing of Hilary Clinton. My personal view is that I find her uninspiring, somewhat dull and like so many others, I am disappointed that the Democratic Party could not find a better candidate. Trump of course is just ridiculous in what would be an amusing way if the stakes were not so high.

    But getting back to Clinton, can anyone back up the various assertions that have been made about her? For example that she is a “war-monger”, that she is “corrupt”, that she is “money-grabbing”, that she is “complicit in the deaths of hundreds of children”.

    I don’t know enough to be able to say for sure that she is not guilty of these things, but I am always suspicious of unsubstantiated assertion. I find myself wondering if people are saying that Clinton is corrupt etc. because that is what everyone else is saying.

    If anyone does feel inclined to respond, can I just ask that we all remember that the candidate is Hilary Clinton, not Bill Clinton, something that seems to have escaped Mr Trump.

  60. carjamtic says:

    I prefer Kaine than Pence (narrowly).


  61. Breastplate says:

    Bob Mack, unfortunately for your argument I’m not denying he’s a nutter but please tell me what you disagree with in my post that you answered to and we can discuss it.

  62. Dan Huil says:

    I think I’m right in saying that neither Clinton nor Trump are fans of Scotland’s independence. So, a plague on baith their hooses.

  63. Kenny says:

    Personally, I find this cartoon appalling. It is a perfect example of the demonisation of the worker (“lower”) classes that Owen Jones has chronicled so well.

  64. winifred mccartney says:

    Watched a clip of Trump’s response to Obama and the protestor at a rally – Obama was amazing – trump was talking about it afterwards and his take was such an outrageous untruth about the scene -I would be incapable of believing his interpretation of any incident, phone conversation, face-to-face conversation or indeed anything coming out of his mouth and to me that makes him dangerous for the whole world.

  65. Arbroath1320 says:

    Breastplate says:
    8 November, 2016 at 11:42 am

    Arbroath 1320, the Americans are in a bit of a predicament but I’m not sure they should take any notice of us Scots as we managed to fuck up our choice in September 2014

    Ah but in 2014 we had an excuse BP. We had wee Gordie come along with his “VOW” and WE all believed him … allegedly. 😀

    Well that’s my excuse and I’m sticking to it BP … for now at least until a better excuse comes along. 😀

  66. Rab says:

    Why is there a cartoon about the American election on a website about Scottish politics? I don’t come here for this kind of crap.

  67. gordoz says:

    Chris I just know the Yankee spelling would have driven him craaaazzzeee.

    It really is a scary thought though Trump in the whitehouse ?

    But then so is the alternative ..

  68. Breastplate says:

    TD, I respectfully suggest you look up what the Secretary of State’s job entails, how long Hilary Clinton has been doing the job an what has happened in that time.
    I’m not endorsing Trump, I’m suggesting that demonising one does not legitimise the other.
    There is some kind of anti-Trump hysteria taking place and people I feel are losing their objectivity.

    For example Bob. Mack who is normally quite measured in what he says has morphed into a soothsayer predicting the end of the world.

    Somehow, there seems to be a suggestion that if you don’t endorse Hilary then you’re a flake, well the only person I would endorse in this race is JILL STEIN.

  69. Bob Mack says:


    Fair enough. Clinton did what she did as Secretary of State for America. In other words the American government or Executive agreed with that action. She did not do it in isolation. We can only assume it was a deliberate action to destabilise the Middle East.

    Why ? Probably for oil and to give Israel the benefit of not facing a United Arab opposition as they did during the six day war and the Yom Kipper invasion. Currently the Arab Nations have been fractured to such an extent that any action against Israel would be inconceivable.

    Trump is a different kettle of fish. A character like him in show business is fine. Confident,conceited arrogant, and quick to blame and punish others for his own shortcomings. However as President it fulfills his need to be all powerful, and he will use that power as he deems fit.

    You would not want to be in his sights, believe me. Any form of control by other members of his government would be seen as interference,even rebellion.

    He is a latent accident waiting to happen.

  70. Capella says:

    @ Skip_NC
    I think it was the New Hampshire Primary where Bernie Sanders won a landslide on the popular vote but, after the Super Delegates were counted in, Hillary Clinton overtook him. Don’t know how common this was as I haven’t really followed it.

    The Electoral College is also a potential cause of some manipulation and don’t even mention computerised vote tallying. Vote early, vote often!

  71. TD says:

    Breastplate at 12.12 p.m.

    So, no evidence then? Just continued assertion?

  72. Chic McGregor says:

    Well Trump is in the lead on the first three declarations.

    But don’t panic, they were three small communities in New Hampshire.

    Communities of less than 100 are allowed to close their polling booths as soon as everyone on the electoral register has voted.

  73. gus1940 says:

    While the election of Trump would be a disaster not just for The US but for the whole World what has not generally been recognised is that he has cottoned on to what is rotten about the US political system and is exploiting it to the maximum.

    The system in The US is corrupt because it is controlled by just 2 political parties which under the present system are the only ones with any hope of being elected.

    Unfortunately these 2 parties are what we would call in Europe – both right wing with the Democrats verging on being moderate and the Republicans tending to the extreme right.

    The trouble is and it is what both Trump & Sanders have latched on to is that under this system any sense of true democracy is an illusion.

    Every 4 years they have presidential Elections plus Senate and House with every 2 years elections for Congress.

    Unfortunately what happens is that both Republicans and Democrats are backed by countless billions from Big Business with Wall Street and The Military Industrial Complex in the lead.

    So what happens is that although the ordinary electors determine who wins, those who win are so in hawk to their financial backers that once the elections are over and irrespective of which of the 2 parties wins they ignore the electors and continue in the traditional US way and jump to the tunes set by their backers.

    Both Trump and Sanders and Trump to the greater extent have latched on to the situation and the discontent of the millions who have now come to realise that they have been ripped off for all these years by the masquerade of so-called democracy.

    While it is a good thing that millions have started to come to their senses the disaster is that their dissatisfaction has been hijacked and exploited by a political charlatan in the form of Trump.

    What puzzled me is how The Republicans managed to allow Trump to worm his way in and effectively take their party over.

    Perhaps, and it is a forlorn hope, over the next 4 years some credible 3rd Party candidate will appear whose message will be of sufficient impact to combat the millions of dollars poured into the existing 2 party system.

    Of course in The UK we have allowed a similar system to be created with New Labour and The Tories differing only at the edges and the realisation of this is what has allowed Farage to rise to prominence resulting in the current crazy
    Brexit situation.

    Meanwhile back at the ranch and bearing in mind that Trump will hopefully lose we have the Boris situation.

    Boris was born in The US and therefore qualifies to stand for President. It can’t be long till Maggie May has to sack him and he will have the option to decamp to The US join the Republicans and Hey Presto – Boris For President in 2020.

  74. Chic McGregor says:

    What a choice the poor American electorate have.

    It is like watching two numpties with burning torches standing up to their waists in petrol and trying to decide which is least likely to drop the torch.

  75. Breastplate says:

    Bob Mack, check out the word “complicit”.

    P.S. I can’t type fast with one finger.

  76. gus1940 says:

    Surely it is unsatisfactory that communities/states are able to declare their results long before voting ends in the whole of the country.

    Given the breadth of The US this practice must have a real potential to affect the result.

  77. Breastplate says:

    TD, I’m sorry but I shall need to discontinue our discussion as you have given me and most probably everyone else that you are a chimpanzee who has happened upon an IPad.
    Have a good day and enjoy your bananas.

  78. Luigi says:

    Great post Breeks @ 10:08am, and some other crackers from other posters (the usual suspects). 🙂

    IMO democracy is only democracy if there is real choice.

    In most of the “free” west, there is only a false political choice and so only pretend democracy. But hey, if it keeps the plebs quiet and enables the billionaires to keep screwing us, what’s not to like? As long as EastEnders, Strictly, and Bake Off are on TV, everyone should be happy, right?

    In Scotland, we actually do have a democratic choice, and boy have we upset the apple cart. More and more people are starting to think about real democratic choice, and that is dangerous, really dangerous.

    Millions of folk who will vote for Trump are intelligent and non-racist, so it’s a bit unfair to stereotype them. Like BREXIT, many people will vote for Trump out of desperation and a determination to upset the establishment cart and change things (for better or worse). If the world is shit (as it will be under Clinton) then why not throw caution to the wind and see what the dice show? It’s a high risk strategy, but sometimes the alternative is even worse.

    Anarchy or more of the same shit. Mayhem on the streets or a slow, painful (but managed) death as the billionaire leeches carry on sucking us dry. That’s the real choice on the other side of the pond today.

  79. Bob Mack says:


    I can’t type fast with metacarpals either.
    I know exactly what complicit means, but you have to appreciate that decisions can be taken by governments and the heads of those governments whether you agree or not,
    Hillary Clinton may well have agreed with the action,but she did not have the power to do it without approval from her bosses.

    You might as well say Mr Davis is going to push article 50 without asking Theresa May.or any other Cabinet member.

  80. Clootie says:

    Why is it that elections in Europe (including Ireland) get almost zero coverage yet American trash is forced down our throats every night for months.

    Russia, China, India etc have just as much impact on World affairs but never a mention never mind any in-depth background.

    I suppose it is a right wing media forcing a right wing World view on us…after all it would never do if we started to think for ourselves.

    America is our goal setter. We will follow with a choice of VERY right wing governments or right wing governments…wait a minute…it’s already happening!

    Well done Chris…Ithought it was Saturday for a second!

  81. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    The problem with democracy is that voters can be such ingrates with over-inflated expectations.

    A US president is not a free agent, despite the brouhaha of an election campaign and what many people seem to think. S/he can only act in internal affairs through an all-powerful Congress. One that in recent years has been dominated by a highly partisan Republican Party determined to thwart the current pres. (Obama) at every turn. The fact that he managed eg. to get some kind of universal health insurance system through that gridlock was a real achievement, limited though it was.

    Just imagine how different everything would have been if “woodentop” Gore had prevailed over faux-everyman Dubya. No Iraq war, etc., etc.

    (For a quiet satire on that piece of manufacturing, I recommend “Silver City” by indy filmmaker John Sayles, where Chris Cooper very amusingly plays a clueless Dubya-like politician. In fact, I recommend all of John Sayles films, not least “Matewan”.)

    What the US is still blessed with is a media that in parts at least still cherishes facts. Even if there are swathes of the population who prefer not to know about them, and wallow in baseless propaganda instead. (And like it or not, one plain fact is that there are a lot of working class people out there who are too dumb or lazy to work out that they are just being played by narcissistic populists like Trump who don’t actually give a toss about their well-being. More fool them.)

    What the US is cursed with is an electoral system that is heavily dependent on money. Absurdly enormous amounts of dosh. You can’t even begin unless you’re some kind of fixer. Like Hillary, for example. You just have to hope that she has more to offer besides.

  82. Meg merrilees says:

    Stoker; Ahundredthidiot

    Why is US dominating our headlines?

    ..should read, Why is Donald Tump allowed to dominate our headlines? So many news bulletin for the last few days have begun with the words ‘DonaldTrump’ that I was beginning to think the media was working on the broken record theory.
    About the only time they mentioned Hilary first was yesterday following the FBI announcement.
    This is an announcement from an ex-Republican Senator that was aired on American TV last night. Powerful stuff!

    Have to ask also, why was Nigel Farage allowed to dominate our headlines for the last few years?

    Is it all a plot from ‘Murdoch and co.’ to ‘change the world order’ ? I know that sounds dramatic but who/what is behind the encouragement of all this xenophobia, racism, intolerance, fascism?
    This phrase ‘power to the people’ is really just mob-rule.
    ‘Enemies of the people’ sounds like a north Korean dictator.

    Thank God I live in Scotland – not perfect, but at least it’s trying to be.

  83. Hamish100 says:

    Scotland to challenge the “Supreme Court” re BREXIT, saying the Scots Parliament must have a vote.


  84. DerekM says:

    lol naughty stereotype Chris i will let you off since you missed out the AR-15 😉

    To be fair it could be either supporters in that cartoon,they really are off their nuts.

    America suffers from the same problem the UK does its big political parties are the establishment and media so it doesnt really matter which one gets in they will bend to the will of the 1% and screw the 99% over while telling them its everybody in the worlds fault except the real culprits themselves the establishment.

    I wonder who they pinched that from ?

  85. Breastplate says:

    Bob, I could concede that point if there was any history of this particular Secretary of State that would suggest condemnation of such actions in the Middle East during her time in office but there aren’t.
    On the contrary, she’s been at pains to tell everyone how much more she would do.
    So, I believe there are no errors in what I’ve said.

  86. bjsalba says:


    I always wondered if Hilary went to her private server to get away from all the Banker Republicans that Congress foisted on the Obama administration. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were constantly second guessing her and briefing against her.

  87. galamcennalath says:

    The main concern about the US presidency has to be nuclear Armageddon!

    Beyond that, just been wondering which of the two would best suit Scotland.

    It seems highly likely than IndyRef2 will occur during the next term. Also, the more optimistic among us believe our chances of success are fairly good. It events unfold, as most of us he would wish, then which president would best suit Scotland’s aspirations?

    Which of the two is likely to be most inclined to interfere to keep the UK united in disharmony, which inclined to accept the democratic will of the Scots?

    Quite honestly I don’t know.

    Perhaps we need to build a Scots lobby in the US in the same way as Ireland and Israel have. Politicians chase the Irish and Jewish vote in the US, why shouldn’t they be chasing a ‘Scottish Vote’?

  88. Onwards says:

    @Dan Hull

    yes, I remember Hillary Clinton saying “I would hate to see you lose Scotland”, as if we were some possession or colony.

    Nicola Sturgeon has gone out her way to support her though, so maybe there will be some goodwill there during a second referendum.

    I do see some truth in Trump’s view that it is a disgrace that a few political families seem to divvy up the top offices between them. The Bushes, the Clintons, the Kennedys.. Democrats are wearing T-shirt supporting Obama’s wife and Clinton’s daughter for the subsequent terms.

  89. Bob Mack says:


    I indeed take your point. As Rumsfeld said there are known known. Clinton is one such. We know what to expect.

    Rumsfeld also said there are unknown unknowns. Trump is one such. A man with NO political experience or service in Congress or any other office of government.

    All we have to go on is his temperament,speeches and demeanour. None are favourable. How will he react to major issues in world affairs.? From what I have seen and heard ,he would be directly confrontational .This guy cannot do Statesmanship. It is not in his vocabulary.

    All we can hope is that we come out the other end unscathed.

    What a hell of a choice.

  90. Chic McGregor says:

    Derek M
    Who did they pinch it from? from 24:44 – 26:13.

  91. galamcennalath says:

    Nana says:

    Good news, a legal intervention.

    “So the Prime Minister needs to live up to her promise to treat Scotland as an equal partner in the United Kingdom and listen to the will of the people of Scotland”

    Now is the time to test the nature of the Union – is it how a partnership of countries operates OR is it how Greater England’s colonial policy is implemented?

  92. crazycat says:

    @ Bob Mack

    Surely Trump is a known unknown in the Rumsfeld classification, in as much as we know that we don’t know him?

  93. Bob Mack says:

    At last the Scottish government come out fighting. It seems to me that this must inevitably produce a verdict on the Sovereignty of the Scottish people rather than Westminster. The question cannot be avoided in this scenario as it forms the crux of the case about May using Executive power to force Brexit.

    Popcorn and soft drinks ready.

  94. Breastplate says:

    Agreed Bob, although as crazy at points out I assume you meant known unknowns.

  95. Breastplate says:

    Crazycat, predictive text.

  96. Les Wilson says:

    The way Trump is portraying himself as someone who will unseat the elite driven system, that is appealing to the middle/lower class.

    There are many more of these disenchanted, to put it mildly,than those considered elites.
    There is very many more of those people than there are elites. So there is his chance to win, and do not dismiss it happening despite the rabid press vilifying him 24/7, the elites are truly scared.

    He is a gambler,this is his best way of getting the gold prize, and write himself into history. Clinton is no way accepted as a clean image for president, and she is protected by the elite machinery of state.
    She is not fit to be the president with her dubious if not downright crooked history.The Trump voter demographic known that, and to keep it highlighted is his way to gain the votes he needs.

    A vote for Trump would be a vote for change, that is what the masses want. If they do not get, or consider the vote rigged, a very bad cloud will come over America, even civil war could erupt.

    America has made many bad choices in the past, but allowing these two to get where they are, must be one of worst decisions America has ever made.
    The world is watching this debacle unfold,and whatever happens the lunatics will be running the asylum. People everywhere will be biting their nails in nervousness. America will never be seen again in the light it once was.

  97. Bob Mack says:

    @Crazy cat @Breastplate,

    I don’t know !! Lol

  98. Skip_NC says:

    Capella, the superdelegates don’t get a say at the state level. In the Democratic primaries, delegates in each state are awarded proportionately, in accordance with the popular vote. Superdelegates, like pledged delegates, get their say (nominally) at the party convention, where each delegate has one vote.

    As for the Electoral College, I personally think the system is flawed in this day and age, but everyone knows the rules going into the election. That is why NC has had twenty-one visits by either Clinton or Trump since June and why some states get no visits at all. Heck, here in Raleigh, we had the pleasure of both main candidates’ company yesterday!

    I suppose the issue with the Electoral College this year is that we already know there will be one faithless elector in Washington. One of the Democratic electors has already publicly stated he will not vote for Clinton if she wins the state (which is pretty much certain). If some states are really tight, we may get an anomalous result, where the winner of the popular vote does not get the Electoral College votes. Except in Nebraska and, I think, Vermont, every state and DC is winner-take-all. North Carolina’s fifteen votes could easily be won by a couple of thousand majority in a state of 10 million people.

  99. Proud Cybernat says:


    “It seems to me that this must inevitably produce a verdict on the Sovereignty of the Scottish people rather than Westminster.”

    Don’t fully understand the complexities of this but surely the Supreme Court will simply state that this is an issue for MPs of the UK Parliament and that the Scots members of that UK Parliament will get a vote. Surely the Supremem COurt cannot assert that Scotland should have two votes over the process??

  100. Macart says:

    Another perspective.

    Many moons ago in another life I lived and worked in the states for a short time. Made a goodly number of friends from all walks of life and I can get right behind what Al is saying in his piece.

  101. Dan Huil says:

    Court case will stir up yet more anti-Scottish sentiment in the britnat media. Good. Anything that widens the political gap [already huge] between Scotland and England is fine by me.

  102. galamcennalath says:

    Dan Huil says:

    Court case will stir up yet more anti-Scottish sentiment in the britnat media. Good. Anything that widens the political gap [already huge] between Scotland and England is fine by me.

    With a degree of sadness, I agree. We didn’t need wedges, but there is an inevitability about it.

    The ‘value’ is that NO voting Scots are going to be targeted too.

    If that’s what it takes to get them to realise they too are outsiders in the London centric worldview, then so be it.

  103. ben madigan says:

    @ Arbroath1320 who said:
    “In my view, held by many on here and elsewhere I believe, neither “candidate” is a worthy “winner tonight”

    here are a couple of videos in support of this point of view – the pilgrim interview with julian assange and michael moore on trump –

  104. yesindyref2 says:

    I’ll be glad when all this circus is over, bored stiff with Clinton and Trump. Talking of which:

  105. crazycat says:

    @ Skip_NC

    Maine is the other splittable-vote state, not Vermont.

  106. Bob Mack says:

    @Proud Cybernetic,

    Theresa Mays’ argument is that Royal Prerogative is sufficient for her elected Tory government to proceed with Article 50. She does unquestionably have such over England Wales and N Ireland.

    However, if we are saying the Scottish people are Sovereign then she has no such power over Scotland. This is absolutely vital. The judges must rule that either the original judgement is good enough ( and remember the issue of Scotland took up 10pages) none of which was broadcast. If they rule in Ms Mays favour they will have to decide that Royal Prerogative extends also to the Scottish people.

    There is no getting away from that issue. One way or another they will have to decide where Sovereignty lies in Scotland.

  107. David Smith says:

    To be honest, Nicola’s cosying up to the Clinton camp, sending members to observe Democrat campaigning, having afternoon tea with Legarde and here Russophobia speech content at the conference have my SNP on a shoogly peg of a nature I never envisaged in all my years as a supporter and member. I should have heard the warning klaxon when the NATO vote came up just four months before that body facilitated a Nazi coup in Ukraine.

  108. Dr Jim says:

    I know where the England Westminster parliament is but where is this United Kingdom parliament people speak of located exactly

  109. heraldnomore says:

    Jings. BBC article on Scotland intervention in Art 50 debate open for comments. And you should see them… nothing if not predictable

  110. TD says:

    Breastplate at 12:29 p.m.

    I note that instead of producing evidence, you have resorted to insulting me. Did you learn this in the Trump school of politics?

    I am fascinated that you feel the need to insult me simply because I pointed out that I was not aware of evidence to back up the assertions made about Clinton, invited anyone to produce such evidence if it exists and pointed out that in your response you had not produced such evidence. I suspect that if you had any, you would have produced it. Instead you throw an insult and attempt to close the discussion. Hmm.

    I remain open-minded about Clinton and will take on board any evidence that does exist, but your inability / refusal to make reference to anything that would back up your assertions suggests to me you are forming your conclusions about Clinton on the basis of repeating other people’s unsubstantiated allegations.

    As those who read this site regularly know, the power of rational argument and evidence is overwhelming and most of us like to leave tittle-tattle and blind assertion to our political opponents. I remain willing to consider any evidence you might have for your position.

  111. yesindyref2 says:

    The planned Intervention in the appeal is good, but there is a risk with it. The ScotGov has been able to use the threat of implied power to force Indy Ref 1, and potentially other things, but if the appeal causes definitive rulings to be made, that’s it one way or the other, so it could be good or bad.

    If it’s bad, then at least people in Scotland would know how powerless we are in the Union, and how little our opinion counts. And if it’s good, then two fingers Westminster, GIRUY.

    On the other hand, the threat of Scotland’s intervention could be enough for the UK Government not to risk appealing.

  112. Capella says:

    @ Skip_NC – thanks for the background info. I will check out the result with interest. And I hope you will have some comments tomorrow to let us know how it looks from your neck of the woods. Good luck.

  113. Dr Jim says:

    FM getting massive amounts of abuse heaved at her from all the usual suspects and maddies

    Good sign Yoonworld is on the run

  114. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Unfortunately @ gus1940 says at 12:20 pm I have to agree when you say:

    “..what has not generally been recognised is that he has cottoned on to what is rotten about the US political system and is exploiting it to the maximum.”

    And that is why I suspect he will win regardless of the fact he may be a complete loon.

    I feel this election is likely to be the ‘states version of Brexit.

    It is going to be a protest vote against the elite, the folk in the bubble who haven’t been hurt by the financial crash of 2008.

    As you’re saying Gus he’s ‘exploiting’ the flaws in the system in the same way Farage railed against immigration.

  115. Breeks says:

    Bob Mack @ 1:28…

    Agreed Bob. This is not the end, but it might well be the beginning of the end…. Let’s see whether 300 years of pent up frozen sovereignty takes to the water as the mighty all conquering Dreadnought we all hope it is, or flounders like a paper canoe in a swell.

    Come on Thunderchild…

  116. heedtracker says:

    heraldnomore says:
    8 November, 2016 at 2:15 pm
    Jings. BBC article on Scotland intervention in Art 50 debate open for comments. And you should see them… nothing if not predictable

    Nothing from Ruthie Babes though, which is predictably weird from toryboys in Scotland. SLabour say SNP bad, shock.

    “SLabour Europe spokesman, Lewis Macdonald, said: “Rather than spending the next six weeks appealing to the Supreme Court, the UK government’s time would perhaps be better spent getting on with outlining a clear plan for Brexit.”

    Scottish Lib Dem leader Willie Rennie welcomed Ms Sturgeon seeking to join the legal action against what he described as the “unjust and undemocratic” use of the Royal Prerogative to invoke Article 50.”

  117. Bob Mack says:


    True enough but do not forget if the ruling goes against Nicola we STILL have the right if appeal to the European Courts for the next few years at least.

    They may have other ideas,

  118. heedtracker says:

    668. Posted by Totallyright
    Just now
    It’s like a new form of joke, “A Guyanian, A Scotswoman and a Mexican went to the Bar…”

    Problem is, it’s not funny when these people that clearly hate the British are working their machinations to destroy our chosen society and force globalist dictatorship upon us.

    667. Posted by puzzledbythis
    Just now
    The Scots seem to be like the remainers, petulant children who can’t get their own way. They (both) had a vote, lost and can’t seem to accept the result.

    Democracy doesn’t appeal to them it seems. Perhaps that should up sticks to North Korea. See where their constant whining gets them. An appointment with an anti aircraft gun I’d guess.

    665. Posted by G J Hunt
    Just now
    I am Scottish and proud to be British too. This ghastly woman needs to keep on digging herself a bigger hole. Her dogmatic rather than pragmatic style will be her eventual undoing and I sincerely hope that her Waterloo comes soonest. I voted to remain in the EU but the UK (yes poisonous dwarf – the UK) voted to leave so we need to respect that and move forward as Great Britain so get over it!!!

    Its not funny but it is a bit. USA’s got dudes like the one in the cartoon up there. UK zone’s got BBC comment section.

  119. yesindyref2 says:

    @David Smith
    I agree, that Sturgeon has been foolish going out for Clinton, it’s not the place of Scotland to interfere in another country’s democracy. We didn’t like it during Indy Ref 1.

  120. Skip_NC says:

    Capella, polls here close early in the evening, so I may have a few thoughts sometime after midnight your time.

    Indiana is first at 7pm EST (along with a few other small states, I think) and the first big prize is NC, sometime after 7:30 EST. Mind you, if it is tight, that one may drag on for several days. You need to be within 0.5% to get a recount in NC. Anything over that and you are into disputing specific ballots.

    FWIW, I think Trump is going to take NC. African-American vote is down and 90% of AA vote Democrat. As I understand it, polling is up in Trump-friendly areas. I observed that in my own polling station during early voting last Friday. NAACP are working hard to get people to the polls today, especially those displaced by Hurricane Matthew. It’s going to be a long and interesting day.

  121. yesindyref2 says:

    @Bob Mack
    Indeed. I’m all for the intervention by the way, it could clear away a lot of cobwebs.

    If the ScotGov wins of course, it really blows apart the current setup of the UK, virtually forces Scotland to be treated as an equal if slightly junior partner, just as we’re supposed to be according to the Treaty of Union.

  122. Marcia says:


    ‘….Willie Rennie welcomed …’


  123. Proud Cybernat says:

    With respect, Heedtracker, I really, really DON’T want to read any of that utter pish. We see enough of it elsewhere in Yoon rags. No need to pollute WoS with it. Ta.

  124. Grouse Beater says:

    That festive stocking filler:

    Worth reading if you missed out on it:

  125. orri says:

    It all hinges on just how much of an affect A50 has on devolved issues. If there’s enough then this little beauty kicks in,

    1 In respect of the use of the Royal Prerogative, where the advice concerns a devolved matter the First Minister will advise Her Majesty.

    The UK leaving the EU will, arguably, return a whole wean of control to Holyrood. As such, even though considered beneficial, it does concern devolved issues.

  126. Breastplate says:

    Ah, the old BBC comments, that’s just The Establishment soiling their pants by proxy.

  127. Inkall says:

    I presume, hopefully, Sturgeon has backed Clinton for no reason other than to distance the SNP from Trump.

    He wasn’t half used as a stick to beat Salmond with.

  128. Roboscot says:

    The Lord Advocate is to apply for an intervention. The Supreme Court may choose to refuse the application.

  129. heedtracker says:

    Marcia says:
    8 November, 2016 at 2:47 pm

    ‘….Willie Rennie welcomed …’


    I know. Very mad. Caught a taste of Alistair Carbuncle on BBC Politics tv lunchtime and he’d definitely had had a triple shot espresso, as he was very excited about something Brexit.

    And then, nice BBC lady asked Carbuncle about legal intervention news and oh god, Carbuncle collapsed into an Alex Salmond bad frenzy. Worth a watch, like watching someone fall downstairs.

  130. Alan says:

    This cartoon replays obvious ethnic and class stereotypes about Rednecks, White Trash, Crackers, Hillbillies, and the descendants of the “Scots-Irish” (although the former groups encompass rather more than the latter). The poor white population is certainly part of the vote that Trump is pulling but it a lot less than half of his vote so reducing the Trump phenomenon to poor ‘white trash’ Rednecks is missing a big part of what’s going on. Stereotypes of this sort let middle-income and wealthy Trump backers off the hook. It also let’s the role of elitism and the more subtle and pragmatic racism of Clintonian Democrats in the current situation off the hook as well. Rednecks have long been a convenient scapegoat.

    For some discussion see: The Original Underclass.

  131. Robert Peffers says:

    @ahundredthidiot says: 8 November, 2016 at 11:03 am:

    “First NS, now Chris for Wings.” and “It’s just disappointing. Is there no refuge from this madness.”</i.

    Now that's real tough one for we as Scottish electorate to decide – should we go with what, "ahundredthidiot", or Nicola and Chris Cairns says?

    Now let me see? Mmmm! Naw! Mmmm! naw!
    Decisions! Decisions!

    Bingo! It has to be Nicola and Chris – can you guess why?

  132. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    ‘….Willie Rennie welcomed …’

    Most Fib Dem supporters are pro EU

    Fib Dems are so irrelevant that they can’t publicly alienate 62% of the electorate who turned out to vote Remain.

    Dont worry @ Marcia says at 2:47 pm Fib Dem Party Policy is still SNPBaaad.

  133. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    ‘ come on now @ heedtracker says at 3:11 pm

    “Alistair Carbuncle on BBC Politics….. Worth a watch, like watching someone fall downstairs.”

    You can’t dangle that without attaching a link.


  134. Jack Murphy says:

    Scottish Government intervenes in Brexit.
    BBC Comments OPEN for now!!

  135. Thepnr says:

    Big Money talks.

    Clintons campaign has raised $1300 million dollars.

    Trumps campaign has raised $735 million dollars.

    I guess you can buy a presidency now, morals don’t matter. Only money.

  136. Bob Mack says:


    Absolutely nothing to prevent Scottish government launching their own case.and creating further delay.

  137. Thepnr says:

    Link from Washington Post.

  138. heedtracker says:

    You can’t dangle that without attaching a link.


    25 mins ish in, was only listening not watching, Salmond bad explosion not a great ad for Proplus. Read the instructions Carbuncle, who’s a lawyer y’know.

  139. TD says:

    So, in the Brexit mess, we have the Treaty of Lisbon (which as I understand it is effectively the constitution of the EU), the Scotland Acts of 1998, 2012 and 2016 (which amount to the constitution for Scotland within the UK) and the non-existent UK constitution.

    Instead of having a constitution, the UK makes it up as it goes along – for example by asking judges for opinions when there is doubt about something. Oh and a good dose of assertion comes in handy as well. So for example “We can use the Royal Prerogative to trigger Article 50”. Once asserted, it becomes true and part of the constitution unless it is challenged. And once it has been done once, similar things can be done again because the first time set a precedent – another important ingredient in running the country when the constitution is not written down. Or try this – “We can take Scotland out of the EU despite the referendum result in Scotland”. Unless challenged it will be true. The Lord Advocate’s application to be heard at the Supreme Court is effectively that challenge. But I suspect the Supreme Court will not allow the Lord Advocate to be heard – too big a can of worms if they do. Crowdfunder for a separate action anyone?

    What a shambles. What an absolute mess. We need to get out.

  140. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Cheers heed.

    @ heedtracker says at 3:31 pm

  141. carjamtic says:

    Alan @3:12


    Latin : Panem et Circenses – Bread and Circuses


    Spanish : Pan y Toros – Bread and Bulls

    Also worth a wee swatch.

  142. Vestas says:

    While we’re all sitting in our own wonderful glass houses throwing stones at political systems/countries….

    I thought this might be a useful link :

    The USA electoral system has its problems at a federal level but at a state level it looks a lot healthier than our system. Heh – a dead vampire staked at the crossroads looks healthier than FPTP 😀

    I have a memory of a Hill St Blues episode (dates me) where Hunter & Goldblum are voting & there’s like 20 seperate proposals to vote on then your preferred candidates.

    Binary at federal level, not so much at local level…

  143. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Why is there a cartoon about the American election on a website about Scottish politics?”

    Because you’d have to be some sort of nutter not to see the connection between Trump and Scotland, and how it could impact if he was the president.

  144. orri says:

    The Supreme Court will be caught between a rock and a hard place if they simply refuse an intervention in the case. Previously the case was only being judged under the laws of England and Wales. If Westminster had won then there would still be a case to heard under Scots law. As there would also have been an appeal and as the Supreme Court also deals with Scotland it seems apt that an intervention be made at this point. It all hinges on whether the intended use of RP impacts a devolved matter or not.

    If they don’t hear the case now then it’s more than probable they want to kick the issue of devolution into the long grass by finding against Westminster. That would render any further input from Scotland needless. What they won’t do is reject the intervention out of hand on the grounds that this is not a devolved matter as that would be saying A50 had no bearing on domestic law before the hearing even begins.

  145. Robert Peffers says:

    @Stoker says: 8 November, 2016 at 11:20 am
    “ahundredthidiot wrote on 8 November, 2016 at 11:03 am:
    “Real question here is why the US is being allowed to DOMINATE news headlines in the UK.”

    The real answer, Stoker, is very simple and clear. The BBC is not allowed to dominate anything … they can only do so if an individual person chooses , to allow them to do so. I neither watch nor listen to the BBC.

    Even although I’m well over the age that I could claim a free TV licence. I’m currently awaiting the threatened arrival of the BBC, “Prevention of Freedom of Though”, squad who have been threatening to visit me for some considerable time. They now inform, “The Occupier”, of these premises they have scheduled a visit.

    Which, I believe, will be utterly futile and not for the reason that they could not possibly catch me watching TV but because they would find it rather difficult to obtain a warrant to search unless they could provide evidence of likely criminality being undertaken and know the name of the said occupier.

    As they do not seem to know who the occupier, or occupiers, are they are cold calling and implicitly accusing said occupiers of criminal activity and that is illegal on their part.

    As is their extended period of attempted coercion to extract money by threats from an individual who has committed no criminal acts. Not to mention that their mob-handed entering the close area of a private dwelling is further threatening behaviour and certainly part of that long campaign of threats.

    They pretend to have some sort of legal authority but the have none. They have no more rights than any other cold caller and that right is to enter the private area and go directly to the main entrance in order to contact the occupiers. It only takes one person to establish contact and if that one person cannot say who they want to contact by name then they are in a very weak position to take any further action but to exit the private area.

    Oh! BTW: I have CCTV surveillance cameras and a recorder in action. I’m looking forward to this threatened visit. I may even call the Police just to make my point.

    I’m looking forward to sending them back to their Falkirk Base with a rather large and vindictive flech ben thir lugs.

  146. Dr Jim says:

    If we end up stuck with this Brexit thing and it turns out to be the disaster everyone with half a brain says it will be
    who will the YOONS and the slavish nutters blame then

    The one person who they should be thanking right now is the FM because if and when it does go bad are they going to say she never tried to do her damndest to protect us from it, which is the day job she’s doing every day

    Yoons be really not bright people

  147. jdman says:

    I had an encounter with a female Trump supporter on Twitter who said “if the law prevented people from voting unless both sets of grandparents were 2nd generation Americans, Trump would be leading in 50 states”
    A little bit of me died at the crass stupidity of such an moronic comment.
    When I attempted to explain to her that in that case Trump wouldnt be able to vote for himself, and to talk it to its logical conclusion he wouldnt even be able to stand for the presidency, she advised me Americans understand democracy, and maybe I should ” go look it up”

  148. Vestas says:

    @ Rev Stu 3:58pm

    “Because you’d have to be some sort of nutter not to see the connection between Trump and Scotland, and how it could impact if he was the president.”

    I know you know this but….

    It really makes no odds in terms of how the USA views Scottish independence as to which of them gets in.

    If the UK loses the SSBN bases in Scotland then they lose the seat on the security council. That’s one less veto the USA has to call on.

    Frankly I’d rather have Trump railing against Scottish independence than Hillary. He’s a nice clear target with no possibility of anyone calling foul due to sex/religion/whataboutery.

    YMMV of course.

  149. Capella says:

    Confirming that it would seek to intervene, Ms Sturgeon said she believed Scotland should be treated as an “equal partner” in the United Kingdom.

    Great stuff from Nicola.
    @ heedtracker – you’re right about the comments – apoplectic what?

    @ Skip_NC – will look out for that. We are told that the Latino vote is out in force and they WON’T be voting for Trump. Also, that Ohio is a “bell-weather” state so however it votes, so does USA.

    BTW “bell weather” is from Bell Wedder – the lead sheep who always wore a bell.

  150. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “It really makes no odds in terms of how the USA views Scottish independence as to which of them gets in.”

    I didn’t mention independence. But a US President actively hostile to Scotland/the Scottish Govt is a different matter from one who isn’t.

  151. yesindyref2 says:

    Wow, cool, more sensible pro-indy people joining that BBC thread, showing up the foul-mouthed anti-Sturgeon brigade for what they are – foul!

  152. ahundredthidiot says:

    Robert Peffers @ 3.13

    poor stab at humour Robert, I am not asking the Scottish electorate to side with me over Nicola and/or Chris, so let me explain.

    My famiy is 20 odd strong. All in the SNP. And all Remainers. So when Nicola and Chris are stupid enough to promulgate their petsnal preference

  153. ahundredthidiot says:

    fat fingers…

    …….it pisses us off.

    have a think on that Robert, WE are the Scottish electorate.

    Expect better from you too, btw

  154. Thepnr says:

    It’s pretty obvious, well to me at least that for the last 30 to 40 years Western “democracies” have been heading in a rightwards direction.

    After WW11 things did improve for the vast majority as we worked together to rebuild things and to rebuild for the common good. Then sometime later it all got too comfortable and the same lot that took us into both WW1 and WW2 wanted control back.

    They wanted more.

    They formed the Bilderburg Group in 1954, a cosy little group formed of between 120 to 150 of the world’s elite from politics, banking, industry and the media. Think Rupert Murdoch.

    Who are these people?

    I’m guessing they are the same people that want Clinton elected, personally I despise both Clinton and Trump. I would want neither representing me for the simple fact that they wouldn’t and couldn’t.

    We have lost it, politics wise I truly believe we are heading back to Victorian times, there is no dissent, no progressive voices.

    We have been silenced.

    If someone as powerful as Rockefeller could be shut up by the Bilderberg group then what chance have we of making our voices heard?

    “Japan–US Relations — Past, Present and Future”. The Daily Yomiuri. 8 December 1991. Rockefeller: The idea (of creating the Trilateral Commission) was incorporated in a speech that I made in the spring of 1972 for the benefit of some industrial forums that the Chase held in different cities around Europe, …

    Then Zbig (Zbig Brzezinski) and I both attended a meeting of the Bilderberg Group … and was shot down in flames. There was very little enthusiasm for the idea. I think they felt that they had a very congenial group, and they didn’t want to have it interfered with by another element that would—I don’t know what they thought, but in any case, they were not in favor.”

    These are our real masters in my view.

  155. heedtracker says:

    A little bit of me died at the crass stupidity of such an moronic comment.

    Its a whole other world of Trump. Its the Christians that vote Trump that make no sense, and then women that vote Trump too. Its almost as bad as your average UK newsroom during Scotland’s ref, almost. Boy did those crews really excel in their UKOK roaster stuff and I’m an ex rancid The Graun reader.

    Maybe if you go totally berserk at people, like the BBC, Graun, Heil etc, they do just give in.

  156. Robert Peffers says:

    @Rab says: 8 November, 2016 at 12:10 pm:

    “Why is there a cartoon about the American election on a website about Scottish politics? I don’t come here for this kind of crap.”

    Perhaps, Rab, it may be because one of the main differences between the Westminster and Holyrood governments is that the Westminster Establishment is, ever increasingly, forever inward looking and isolationist. Except, that is, unless it means another part of the outside World becoming a part of, “their”, Kingdom.

    While the political outlook of Scotland’s parliament is outward looking and, while wanting to engage with all other regimes, has no wish to annex them.

    Then there is the oft misquoted saying of John Donne, “No man is an island.”

    Few, though, have actually read the full quotation:-

    “No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend’s or of thine own were: any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee.”

    Fewer still are familiar with the entire piece by Donne that the quotation comes from. You will find the work in full here :-

  157. As I understand it referiring the matter of article 50 to the mps is to enact a law passed in 1604 .,13 years before the treaty of union so surley it only applies to England not Scotland?

  158. findlay farquaharson says:

    apparently trump manipulated the media, what does it say bout the american media that an oafish bullying utter bawbag like trump can manipulate them?

  159. Legerwood says:

    “”Vestas says:
    8 November, 2016 at 4:10 pm

    “”If the UK loses the SSBN bases in Scotland then they lose the seat on the security council. That’s one less veto the USA has to call on.””

    The rUK, if it is acknowledged by the UN as the successor state after Scottish Independence as the Russian Federation was after the break-up of the USSR, would not lose its seat on the UN security council as a permanent member because it does not owe its position as a permanent member to the possession of nuclear weapons.

    There are 5 permanent members of the Security Council: UK, USA, China, France and Russia. At the time the Security Council came into being only one of those countries, the USA, was a nuclear power. Therefore having nuclear weapons was not a prerequisite of permanent member status. Being on the ‘winning’ side in WWII was.

    Each of the permanent members has a veto and if any one of the permanent members exercises their veto the resolution fails. Therefore the USA does not require the UK’s veto to add to its own. Its own veto power is sufficient should it choose to exercise it and that is the case for each of the permanent members.

    In recent years there have been suggestions that the number of permanent members should be increased. Some of the countries that have been suggested have nuclear weapons eg India, some do not eg Brazil.

  160. bugsbunny says:

    Blair Paterson, do you mean 1694?

    I’ve a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach that Trump will win. But choosing between Trump and Clinton is like choosing between a Cobra and a Mamba to babysit your toddler. Both are poisonous snakes in the grass.

  161. Vestas says:

    @ Legerwood 5:03pm

    There’s no way the rUK (or UK) could retain its permanent position on the security council without being an independent nuclear state.

    There’s nowhere for the rUK/UK to put the SSBNs (which is the entirety of the UK nuclear deterrent) other than where they are. By “nowhere” I mean not within the next 15 years – unless their “home base” is the other side of the pond in which case its not independent in any way shape or form really.

    The UK (or arguably France) shouldn’t be permanent members of the security council and are only there because they have nukes.

    Trump shouting against Scottish indy is a win-win for me – he’ll be impotent by mid-term anyway as congress swings towards democrat control.

  162. Richardinho says:

    The Trump supporter sporting a Saltire derived flag. Clearly Scotland to blame again.

  163. macnakamura says:

    Choosing between Donald and Hilary?

    It is like when parents split and divorce.
    A child has to make a choice but really wants to go and live granny

  164. Meg merrilees says:

    American chap on radio at lunchtime says North Carolina, Ohio, Florida, Nevada and Nebraska are the key swing states. Also watch Pennsylvania.

    Polls still too close to call

    If Clinton gets Florida that will be HUGE.

    TV news at lunchtime was particularly aggressive reporting re Scotland’s intervention in the Supreme court challenge.

    Reporter spoke perfect english but used huge over-emphasis and spat out words like SCOTTISH lawyers/ SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT/ NICola Sturgeon to emphasise his apparent exasperation. the sub-text definitely was:

    “FFS, Scotland has now decided to pile in against us. As if TM didn’t have enough on her plate! Now these numpties are moaning and wanting their 5 minutes of glory in the courts. NS trying to D E L A Y … things. Wish they would just F off!”

    although I speak english, that’s what it sounded like to me…

    Is the BBC biased?

  165. Cactus says:

    BS and JBJ will save the day!

    Who’s livin’ on a prayer now!

    Glory days!

  166. One_Scot says:

    I know this might be a stupid question, but I don’t watch Yoon news so my knowledge on this is limited.

    Given that Trump and Clinton are both equally mental, what difference if any would it make who wins regarding Scotland becoming Independent.

  167. Meg merrilees says:

    Apologies for reposting this article and thanks to Nana for archiving. It’s too good too miss.

    Has the UK already castrated itself over Brexit?

    Def worth a read. Spot on!

  168. John H. says:

    One thing’s for sure. America is about to elect a bad president. God help us all.

  169. Famous15 says:

    Trump says “Today is our independence day”


  170. Robert Peffers says:

    @ahundredthidiot says: 8 November, 2016 at 4:30 pm:

    “poor stab at humour Robert”

    That is, again, your own personal view.

    ” … I am not asking the Scottish electorate to side with me over Nicola and/or Chris, so let me explain”.

    No, but you are saying they are wrong and you are right. Which is exactly the point I was making. If I have to choose between your own personal view and the official view as expressed by the First Minister of Scotland and leader of the SNP then MY OWN personal view is to side with Nicola and Chris.

    My famiy is 20 odd strong. All in the SNP. And all Remainers. So when Nicola and Chris are stupid enough to promulgate their petsnal preference”

    Whoa! There! You now seem to think that you are entitled to state your own personal preferences on an open forum but criticise both Nicola, who actually does speak on behalf of Scotland, and Chris who publishes on open forums are stupid to air their personal views and now you are doing the same to me.

    By the way I’ve been an SNP and independence activist for my entire adult life and I’m an octogenarian, (which, of course, has absolutely nothing to do with my right to express my own personal views).

    What is more I’m not saying you have no right to express your personal views but I say you have no right to think it is all right for you to do so but wrong for others, including The First Minister and one of the best cartoonist it has been my pleasure to enjoy his work.

  171. Dan Huil says:

    @Robert Peffers 4:00pm

    Please keep us informed re. the bbc tax inspectors visit to your CCTV house.

  172. Legerwood says:

    Vestas says:
    8 November, 2016 at 5:27 pm

    “”There’s no way the rUK (or UK) could retain its permanent position on the security council without being an independent nuclear state.

    The UK (or arguably France) shouldn’t be permanent members of the security council and are only there because they have nukes.””

    I thought I had made the position clear in my post at 5.03 but apparently not.

    To recap: The UK, France, China and the USSR were Not nuclear powers when they became permanent members of the UN Security Council. They may have nuclear weapons now but did not when they became permanent members. Having nuckear weapons therefore was not the basis of their permanent membership.

    Discussions to increase the number of permanent members have proposed members who do not have nuclear weapons.

    The UK’s continuing permanent membership of the UN Security Council with or without Scotland as part of the UK depends more on whether it is a member of the EU

    The UK’s nuclear forces are not really an independent nuclear force. They depend on the USA in so many ways.

  173. defo says:

    “We came, we saw, he died!”
    Along with more than a few Libyans, Syrians, Iraqis etc, who the badly hidden claw of Secretary Clinton consigned to the dust.

    Sanders was offered up as hope, Trump is cast as Sideshow Bob, and all is Project Hillary.

  174. Robert Peffers says:

    @Richardinho says: 8 November, 2016 at 5:32 pm:

    “The Trump supporter sporting a Saltire derived flag. Clearly Scotland to blame again.”

    Don’t know, Richardinho, if you know why the rebel Hillbillies are so named.

    They are descendants of the immigrant Scottish/Irish Billyboys who went to the USA from Ulster. That is why the flag and the many Country and Western songs with Scottish/Irish links.

  175. heedtracker says:

    Thepnr says:
    8 November, 2016 at 4:32 pm
    It’s pretty obvious, well to me at least that for the last 30 to 40 years Western “democracies” have been heading in a rightwards direction.

    As an ex life long Labour vote, Anne Begg, I genuinely believed the Bomber Blair Crash Gordon win would be the start of reversing the rise of the neo con right, in teamGB at least.

    Hows about that then guys and gals, for naivety in the extreme. Lots of Bomber Blairites made loads of money though.

    Within a few years in No.10, the Labour party vote to go to war, illegal war, with hard neo con USA. If there is a hell, its waiting for Blair and Gordo.

  176. Gary45% says:

    Cracking cartoon Chris.
    It does not matter a toss who becomes the “leader of the free world!!!”, because Israel will tell whoever wins what the agenda will be for the next presidential term.

    Take a look at 3 films,
    The occupation of the American mind,
    Where should the birds fly,
    Peace propaganda of the promised land.
    Then you will realise who the American President is.

  177. galamcennalath says:

    Meg merrilees says:

    Def worth a read. Spot on!

    Thanks! A cracker!

    Interesting revelation. The long weekend of the 5-8 Sept 2014.

    I knew the Sunday Times put Yes in the lead. I had also heard a rumour that private polling had put Yes ahead. Cameron was worried.

    Monday the 8th and Brown was wheel out to make wild promises. London media suddenly took an interest in Scotland.

    What I didn’t know was that Cameron was spending the weekend at Balmoral with Betty Windsor. He left early for London on the 7th to work on saving his Union.

  178. K1 says:


    ‘I am Scottish and proud to be British too. This ghastly woman needs…’

    Seriously ‘who’ ‘from’ Scotland Speak. Like. This?

    Yeah…paid up brigade of spooks mair like.

  179. Orri says:

    A case might be made that the UK’s seat should actually belong to the Commonwealth. France’s should belong to the EU.

  180. Rock says:

    Is Clinton any better than Trump?

  181. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “No, but you are saying they are wrong and you are right. Which is exactly the point I was making. If I have to choose between your own personal view and the official view as expressed by the First Minister of Scotland and leader of the SNP then MY OWN personal view is to side with Nicola and Chris.”

    Are you of the opinion that Clinton is any better than Trump?

  182. Bob Mack says:

    “Is Clinton any better than Trump?” Probably not ,but I do know it is going to be one or the other barring some miracle

  183. louis.b.argyll says:

    Swing to the right? Ffs..Hillary Benn pleaded with Labour MPs to vote to Bomb Syria..
    Which they duly did, and saved Russia having to argue their case.

    Fools, the lot of them.

  184. Andrew Mclean says:


    What? this what you looking for!
    You Earlier, sorry for being late, re newspaper says Brexit good “The largest downward pressure came from manufacturing, which fell by 0.9%” office for national statistics today said Brexit bad! God knows where the telegraph got its information.

  185. uno mas says:

    This is a very interesting article in Al Jazeera explaining what Westminsters situation will be during forthcoming “brexit” negotiations.

    *dfcuek* basically!

  186. Rock says:

    Bob Mack,

    ““Is Clinton any better than Trump?” Probably not ,but I do know it is going to be one or the other barring some miracle”

    That is why is ahundredthidiot right:


    “Anyone supporting either of these two idiots, by attacking their ‘less preferred option’, is the real loser here…Nicola included.”

    If Trump is elected, many European countries which blindly follow America may start taking a more independent stand.

    Except America’s poodle of course.

  187. yesindyref2 says:

    Peeps, I’ve got to go work soon, done my shift on the BBC, feel free to pile in with some facts and figures to help out the uneducated and indoctrinated, poor things.

  188. Robert Louis says:

    I’ve seen all the supposed scnadal and so on about Hilary Clinton, but honestly, I genuinely have no idea why people dislike her so much. Pretty much all of the things supposedly levelled against her, are not proven as fact or are just mere opinions. I can’t see the problem.

    So, I hope Hilary Clinton wins.

  189. ahundredthidiot says:

    Robert Peffers @6.09

    second point first, no sense of entitlement Robert, simply making that point lest I be accused of being some sort of troll, but I accept that I made a bad fist of that.

    So let’s be straight, Chris aside, was the FM of Scotland right or wrong to back a side in a foreign governments electoral process?

    I am saying she was wrong – feel free to disagree with me, but that doesn’t make me wrong or you right.

    But feel free to list world leaders backing a horse in this circus??

  190. Robert Louis at 9.27

    She has said she wants to topple the elected and legitimate ruler of Syria and wap Iran after that. I know its just a small thing…..

  191. Meindevon says:

    Just seen this in the DM BTL on the article re the SG and the Supreme Court intervention. ‘Anna’ refers, of course,to NS.

    anna, london, 5 minutes ago
    This woman needs a bullet

    It’s getting scary down here.

  192. Sinky says:

    This Vanity Fair article on Scotland and Brexit needs wider circulation.

    Meg merrilees says:
    8 November, 2016 at 5:43 pm
    Apologies for reposting this article and thanks to Nana for archiving. It’s too good too miss.

    Has the UK already castrated itself over Brexit?

    Def worth a read. Spot on!

  193. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Robert Louis @ 21:27,

    Yes, funny that. You can have decades of decent public service behind you, inevitably have put plenty of noses out of joint across the board, but especially on the self-entitled right wing, made your fair share of mistakes as a smart operator, and in consequence be judged inadequate in comparison with a loudmouthed braggart of an opponent who has made all their mistakes (and possible dirty deals) in the shadow, never ran for public office, never served anyone except himself, and whose only public appearances were in a popular long-running trivial TV show.

    Easy to make that hypercritical judgement, isn’t it…?

  194. Meg merrilees says:

    They’re coming home to roost now!

    Britain’s fishing industry feels betrayed by BREXIT

    and apparently the curry houses , which voted out too!

    Thanks, Sinky.

  195. Phronesis says:

    Stiglitz not endorsing Trump (parallels with the farcical state of WM politics)

    ‘There are two messages US political elites should be hearing. The simplistic neo-liberal market-fundamentalist theories that have shaped so much economic policy during the last four decades are badly misleading, with GDP growth coming at the price of soaring inequality. Trickle-down economics hasn’t and won’t work. Markets don’t exist in a vacuum. The Thatcher-Reagan “revolution,” which rewrote the rules and restructured markets for the benefit of those at the top, succeeded all too well in increasing inequality, but utterly failed in its mission to increase growth.

    This leads to the second message: we need to rewrite the rules of the economy once again, this time to ensure that ordinary citizens benefit. Politicians in the US and elsewhere who ignore this lesson will be held accountable. Change entails risk. But the Trump phenomenon – and more than a few similar political developments in Europe – has revealed the far greater risks entailed by failing to heed this message: societies divided, democracies undermined, and economies weakened’–stiglitz-2016-10

    This individual who has worked at the heart of the US government not endorsing Clinton (parallels with the farcical state of WM politics)

    ‘Extreme and hostile words stream from the mouth of the Democratic presidential candidate, Hillary Clinton, who has called the president of Russia “the new Hitler” and threatened Russia with military force. Insouciant Americans are capable of electing this warmonger who would bring Armageddon upon the earth’

    ‘The Clinton crime syndicate in the closing years of the 20th century allowed a small handful of mega-corporations to consolidate the US media in a few hands. This vast increase in the power of the Oligarchy was accomplished despite US anti-trust law. The media mergers destroyed the American tradition of a dispersed and independent media’

    There is a slogan on every dollar bill E Pluribus Unum. A most unedifying spectacle- a presidential campaign where almost $2 billion dollars has been spent to identify the one who will bring neither peace nor agreement.

  196. Cactus says:

    As and ach well, we’re no gettin’ a running commentary from Danger May’s A50 Brexit.. but we do get a RC for America’s choice..

    Up all night, stay tuned.

  197. Dr Jim says:

    For those who are thinking the FM is a Clinton fan should realise because the FM says she prefers Clinton doesn’t mean she wants to have long hot showers with the woman, it just means she thinks Clinton is better than the other guy, no more no less, she never said she liked Clintons policies
    and remember Clinton is against Scottish Independence so that excludes her from Christmas dinner invites to Nicola’s hoose

    It might come as a surprise to some folk but the FM gets on with lots of folk she doesn’t always agree with politically

  198. yesindyref2 says:

    @Meg merrilees
    You couldn’t make it up!

  199. Hamish100 says:

    So the fishing rights and laws aren’t coming to Scotland after all!!

    Lot of silly fishermen sitting in the North East (not the english one!) thinking but “we were promised”!!

    Sorry guys it will be run from England – probably Home Counties South.

    “Hell mend ye”

  200. Meg merrilees says:

    Maybe some fishermen will actually come round to YES now, since even if we stay in the EU, an indy Scotland will have a say at the fishing policy table. Hmmm!

    Seems Brexit will just make the EU Common Fisheries Policy UK law after the Great Repeal Bill and the fishing industry will still lose out. ‘Expendable” is the word.

    I wonder if the same is true for the Common Agricultural Policy? Are the farmers/growers about to be shafted by TM’s brexiteers also?

    No wonder Messrs. Johnson/Fox and Davis don’t want to give the game away!

    Off for a snooze before the Night of the Long Knives!!!

  201. Tam Jardine says:

    For anyone sitting up waiting agonisingly to find out which way the election is going to go I can thoroughly recommend the FM’s lecture at Sheffield University. You can almost sense the audience of economics students and assorted academics wishing Nicola was Prime Minister.

  202. Taranaich says:

    @Bob Mack: However, if we are saying the Scottish people are Sovereign then she has no such power over Scotland. This is absolutely vital. The judges must rule that either the original judgement is good enough ( and remember the issue of Scotland took up 10pages) none of which was broadcast. If they rule in Ms Mays favour they will have to decide that Royal Prerogative extends also to the Scottish people.

    There is no getting away from that issue. One way or another they will have to decide where Sovereignty lies in Scotland.

    Indeed. This is why the High Court case left such a bad taste in my mouth: all these progressive, left wing types hailing and praising the “supreme sovereignty” of Parliament. Sure, it’s better than Royal Prerogative, but still.

    @Vestas: Frankly I’d rather have Trump railing against Scottish independence than Hillary. He’s a nice clear target with no possibility of anyone calling foul due to sex/religion/whataboutery.

    @One_Scot: Given that Trump and Clinton are both equally mental, what difference if any would it make who wins regarding Scotland becoming Independent.

    Trump seems clearly far more hostile to independence than Clinton.

    Back before indyref, Clinton said:

    “I would hate to have (the UK) lose Scotland. I hope that it doesn’t happen but I don’t have a vote in Scotland. But I would hope it doesn’t happen.”

    Later, Clinton backed the UK remaining in the EU:

    “Hillary Clinton believes that transatlantic cooperation is essential, and that cooperation is strongest when Europe is united. She has always valued a strong United Kingdom in a strong EU. And she values a strong British voice in the EU.”

    Trump, on the other hand, not only opposed Scottish Independence and backed the UK leaving the EU, he said this about a second independence referendum after the EUref:

    “I don’t know how they can do that – go through all that again. I’ve never heard of a thing like that. It’s crazy.”
    In an interview with Scotland’s Press and Journal newspaper, he added: “You would’ve thought that Cameron, or whoever was planning it, would’ve said ‘we’ll do this now but if we win you can’t do it for another 50 years’.”

    Clinton was against independence, but for the UK remaining in the EU; Trump was against independence and the UK remaining in the EU. Scotland is already being welcomed with open arms by EU leaders, politicians, and media.

    What people may call the SNP/Sturgeon “cosying up” to Clinton, I call maneuvering for indyref2. Will Clinton be opposed to indyref2 knowing that it’s likely the only way to keep Scotland in the EU, something both Scotland & the EU clearly want, while the UK continues on its downward spiral with senior Brexiters cosying up to Trump? I think there’s sufficient room for doubt.

    If nothing else, Trump has shown he is a gigantic hypocrite in his statement supporting British “independence”:

    “The people of the United Kingdom have exercised the sacred right of all free peoples. They have declared their independence from the European Union and have voted to reassert control over their own politics, borders and economy.”

    The UK “declaring independence,” reasserting “control over their own politics, borders and economy” is good, wonderful, SACRED even. Scotland doing those things is “crazy.”

    Donald Trump is no friend of Scotland.

  203. Onwards says:

    I don’t think Sturgeon would normally publically back a candidate in a foreign election, but in this case I can see the reasons why.

    Trump has been abusive towards Salmond, Sturgeon and SNP government and has held back offshore wind energy with his endless appeals on the test site.

    And Clinton has been the overwhelming favourite especially since that recording of Trump bragging on the bus emerged.
    I think she sees a Hillary victory as inevitable, so it does no harm to be in Clinton’s good books.

  204. Jock McDonnell says:

    @Dr Jim
    True, its the smart position to take too.
    Since neither candidate approves of Scottish Independence, the less credible the president, the less credible their interventions.

  205. Cactus says:

    America votes..

    Guy with the white t-shirt and bourbon in the background, necking whisky on STV tish–now!! 🙂

  206. ian murray says:

    I watch question time from the other day and there was a question about who was better Trump or Clinton.The opinions from the panel were the exactly what the media have been spoon feeding the populace on both sides of the pond.
    Trump through the Primaries had to combat the Republican elite machine he beat off 9 or 13 (i forget) candidates to win the republican nomination even then the Republicans did not support him because he wasn’t one of them.(The Koch brothers even said they were backing Hillary.Trump is not a politician so he makes lots of mistakes.
    The Clintons are the biggest crime family in the USA, now that sounds pretty outrageous i know, but Bill Clinton was involved in drug running during his time as Governor in Arkansas.
    The Clintons have been embroiled in many investigations and Court proceedings.While i sound like a nutcase google Deaths around the Clintons the numbers vary and you can whittle what you believe down to what you think is reasonable but the number is still going to be staggering.

  207. DerekM says:

    Hmmm that vanity fair article is okay but it is quite clear it is written from a “British” perspective.

    When the full reality of Scotland leaving the UK hits them there will be much gnashing of teeth and wailing but i thought they were the subsidy junkies,and maybe a few shocked at the treatment we get from the UK,well there will be no hiding Scottish resources as things we do not even know make us money pop out the secret squirrel network of UK theft.

  208. Meg merrilees says:

    Taranaich; Bob Mack

    The Royal Prerogative is not a reserved matter as clearly stated at the beginning of the Scotland Act (?)

    There must be a sound Constitutional reason for that. If RP applied to Scotland then it would be inviolable and therefore reserved. Not sure if this is a strong or logical argument but there has to be a reason for it not being reserved.

    Does it not date from 1688 i.e. before the Acts of Union?

    Brian Taylor tonight writes:-
    “The legal system in Scotland has not always looked entirely favourably upon the Supreme Court, distrusting any suggestion that it might arrogate to itself powers which, many Scots lawyers would argue, truly reside in Scotland under the protections granted by the Act of Union.
    However, on constitutional matters, the Supreme Court now plays the role, among many others, formerly deployed by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council – that is, to settle disputes over where power lies in this devolved UK.”

    Think we could have a fight on our hands OR is it as simple as quoting the part of the Acts of Union that states Scots Law cannot be over ruled in perpetuity?

    I agree, where Scottish sovereignty lies could well be the crux.

    Robert Peffers states that as having been established in 1309 or thereabouts – pre-dating the Declaration of Arbroath but I’m out of my depth here.

    Great time to be a constitutional lawyer!!!

  209. Cactus says:

    Oh the weather ootside is..

  210. heedtracker says:

    The Clintons have been embroiled in many investigations and Court proceedings.While i sound like a nutcase google Deaths around the Clintons the numbers vary and you can whittle what you believe down to what you think is reasonable but the number is still going to be staggering.

    The bigger wastes of your time is wading through foreign countries political smear campaigns.

    And you can add to that, dont waste your time wading through hard core conservative smear campaigns.

    Look at Scotland and super star, meteoric, political genius, economic genius, everything genius, tank barrel straddler genius, possible future UKOK Prime Minister genius…you know who.

    When it comes to right wing propaganda, the BBC leads the world but the US thinks the BBC is somehow lovely and great. Its a two way pile of toryboy bullshit basically.

  211. manandboy says:

    Clinton and Trump are two frogs squabbling in a pond and getting all the attention. That’s the way the spectacle is set up.
    Meanwhile, much deeper and out of sight, the alligators are sorting out who’s who, and who gets what.
    Ok, so you vote for a frog. So what?

  212. heedtracker says:

    Another plain dull as dishwater BBC 2 Newsnight widdles down the toryboy drain, come back Paxo.

    Now its NFL. BBC cant show any World No.1 Andy Murray match ever, but they pay mega bucks for American football, with English BBC dudes saying words like “deefence.”

  213. Jock McDonnell says:

    This electoral college thing, blah blah complex, blah blah.

    Is it ?

    Seems to me its not much different to electing a PM via the electoral college of MPs, who then pledge to support a particular PM candidate.

  214. heedtracker says:

    Clinton and Trump are two frogs squabbling in a pond and getting all the attention. That’s the way the spectacle is set up.

    But why did the whole of our tory BBC led media wet themselves over Prince Harry and his beef with the horrid media, what grovels at his feet day in day out, today of all days?

    Or why did Buck palace release such a weird thing about the wonderful British prince and the horrid media today, of all democratic days, is probably just a coincidence. Harry looks so dim, existing in an ivory tower where democracy is totally irrelevant, he doesn’t know what happens today.

    Real headline, what does a beautiful actress actually see in a plain, nice but dim English twit, apart from his princeness, and inheriting almost as much money as JK Rowling makes per hour.

  215. Bob Mack says:

    @Meg Merrilees,

    On devolved matters the Queen must take advice from the FM, and not Westminster.
    Remember that the Queen is Sovereign over England and Wales ,but devolves that power to the serving Parliament to enact laws. This was done following Cromwell when the Monarchy was reintroduced.

    The Declaration of Arbroath is perfectly legal and although I have searched intensively and extensively I have never found an Act of Parliament or a law that supercedes it and removes the Sovereignty of the Scottish people. I have debated this with lawyers on line and though some agree with Mundell that the Treaty of Union eradicated Scotland, none of them can quote a law or Act which removes Sovereignty from the people of Scotland.

    This is important because the Queen cannot exercise the ROYAL PREROGATIVE over a people whom she serves, rather than who serve her.

  216. Cactus says:

    T-minus 10.

  217. yesindyref2 says:

    Well, I for one will be heartily glad when this election is over, and I have to hope Clinton gets in, only because Scotland as a whole seems to have gone out of its way to piss off someone who could be the most powerful man on the planet, and one who takes things personally as well.

    We had Labour and Dugdale going for Clinton, but the last straw is that the FM of our country, someone who should know better and very badly needs a minder, also went obviously for Clinton, for an election which could still go either way.

    It’s not our business to interfere in the democratic process of another country”.

  218. Still Positive. says:

    Earlier today I thought Trump may win, on more or less the same reasons Brexit won.

    Tonight I am not so sure. It appears, according to my MP and his sister, on FB, people have been queuing all day at the grave of an American suffragette, Susan B. Antony.

    Also MP said on Sunday that if Hillary won it would smash the ‘glass ceiling’.

  219. Andrew Mclean says:

    Yes Indy ref 2

    Why ever not, they’re never shy when talking about Scotland?

  220. Cactus says:

    By the way..

    I’m sovereign, I’m a Scot..

    That makes me (you)..


  221. Cactus says:

    Just like you.. amma scovereign scot.


  222. yesindyref2 says:

    @Andrew Mclean
    It makes us look like amateurs, at a time we’re wanting to take our palce on the “world stage”. She got away with it mostly in Scotland apart from on Facebook apparently, probably because Labour did the full Clinton thing outside Holyrood even, and the rest are more distracted making mileage out of CR3 and Sino-Fortune. And also because the media seems to be Clinton biased. On the other hand, Theresa May wished both candidates good luck – she did the right thing, and it really pains me to compare the two like that.

  223. Tam Jardine says:

    Watching the guardian’s live update page- florida just changed before my eyes from blue to red. They seem to be reporting minute percentages of ballot boxes so too early to panic.

    Coverage on the BBC is absolute rubbish- like a weather report on what the weather was like earlier today.

  224. yesindyref2 says:

    It’s rubbish on STV as well, I just switched to BBC a couple of minutes ago. Mmm, Sky 501 – at least they’re doing exit polls.

  225. wull says:

    O/T but the BBC seems to have changed its way of describing, or categorising its ‘political’ articles. The UK page used to have a category ‘UK Politics’, but this has been changed, quite simply, to ‘Politics’.

    This new ‘Politics’ category carries exactly the same kind of stories as used to appear under the title ‘UK Politics’.

    Now, as then, there are no ‘Scottish Politics’ stories to be found there.

    Meanwhile, some articles on the BBC Scotland page used to be dubbed ‘Scotland Politics’. That description only appeared under the headline of individual articles, as a small red tag. It never appeared on the main menu at the top of the page. So ‘Scotland Politics’ was not so obvious or easy to find on the BBC Scotland page as ‘UK Politics’ was on the UK page, but at least it did exist.

    Of late, however, this category has disappeared altogether.

    Now ‘Scotland Politics’ is nowhere to be found on the BBC Scotland page, or indeed anywhere else on the BBC website. The category ‘Scotland Politics’ is no more. Not on the BBC, at least.

    To be fair, the BBC Scotland page does still carry the kind of political stories that would formerly have been described as ‘Scotland Politics’. However, they now appear under the more general title ‘Scotland’, without any reference to politics.

    This ‘Scotland’ category carries all kinds of other Scottish stories as well. You know, all the usual sort of things: car accidents, court cases, human interest stories, murders, and trivia of all description.

    Scottish stories of a political nature are still run, but quite submerged in the lumpen generalities of the BBC’s ‘Scotland’ category. This even includes articles of dubious provenance which veer embarrassingly close to the ‘kailyard’ and ‘Brigadoon’ versions of what ‘Scotland’ is thought to be, and never has been.

    Meanwhile, unlike BBC Scotland, the BBC Wales page still has a category describing some articles as ‘Wales Politics’. That category doe not appear on the page’s main menu, but at least it still exists. It is tagged to individual stories, as used to happen with the old ‘Scotland Politics’ stories on BBC Scotland.

    I don’t know if there was ever a ‘Northern Ireland Politics’ category. But if there was, it too has ceased to exist. Stories that you would expect to be described as ‘Northern Ireland Politics’ are simply classified as ‘Northern Ireland’. They are lumped together with all kinds of non-political stories.

    Exactly the same system, therefore, for Northern Ireland, therefore, as for Scotland. The abolition of their ‘Politics’ …

    Meanwhile, the ‘Politics’ page formerly called ‘UK Politics’ is still alive and well. It includes English political stories and coverage of the Westminster Government. Unless I have missed it, however, it never seems to carry any story about the SNP at Westminster, or about Holyrood, or, indeed, about Scottish Politics generally. Not even about the way Scottish politics or Scottish politicians might be affecting the rest of the UK. The abolition of ‘Scotland Politics’, therefore …

    Meanwhile, the Westminster-and-English-focused ‘Politics’ articles remain easy to access, as a batch, on the UK page. The new ‘Politics’ category stares you straight in the face, on the main menu, immediately you click into ‘UK’ on BBC News.

    With all this re-categorising, the BBC must surely have come to the conclusion that the only two ‘parts’ of the UK where genuinely ‘political’ stories still arise are England and Wales.

    Which happen to be the two parts of the UK that voted for Brexit.

    Maybe someone decided that genuinely ‘political’ stories only arise, and politics only exists, where people – ‘the people’ – voted for Brexit? The English and Welsh people, that is.

    Only English (mistakenly categorised as ‘UK’) and Welsh stories could possibly be described as ‘political’.

    Funny coincidence that, don’t you think?

    Maybe it won’t be long till someone decides that ‘Politics’ as such is now for Brexiteers only … Everybody else will be called ‘undemocratic’, which they obviously are, and automatically excluded …

    It won’t be long now …

    Just wait a little while, for that knock on the door at midnight …

    And this minor unimportant little re-categorisation was such a tiny, insignificant step along the road towards that end …

    Towards that ‘thing’ which could never happen here … For only these awful foreigners do such things …

    Why on earth would anyone make the slightest fuss about such a petty little thing … ?

    And they thought we wouldn’t notice …

  226. Meg merrilees says:

    Bob Mack

    Agree! Well put!
    That’s my understanding of our position, just lack the legal confidence to assert it.

    Could be interesting watching Elizabeth 1st of SCOTS advise the head of Elizabeth ll nd of England’s Government that the Scots are a sovereign people and as such are not, nor ever shall be , Her subjects ergo, nae Royal Prerog. Treesa!

    Is it not the case therefore that any attempt to trigger Art.50 by Royal Prerog could break the Union?

    South Britain may go into melt down!

  227. Cactus says:

    Oh ho say can you see..?


  228. Thepnr says:

    @Tam Jardine

    Live Bloomberg election special available here.

  229. Onwards says:

    CNN has a live online count.

    If Clinton wins Florida its over.
    The Miami-Dade area has a huge democratic vote to come in.

  230. Meg merrilees says:


    I keep getting two different website pages when i log on to the BBC these days.

    Sometimes i get the old layout with everything clearly laid out in regions,nations, politics etc and sometimes I get this crazy, fabby-doo, new layout which is a chaotic mess. Can’t find anything and very frustrating. Not sure why it is oscillating but it’s annoying.

    On the old page layout, the Scots politics sec ion is easy to find.

    Incidentally, i read that the Welsh are also to challenge the government in the Supreme Court now.

  231. Thepnr says:

    Here is the latest from the critical battleground states:

    Florida (with 72% counted):
    Clinton: 49.9%
    Trump: 47.3%

    North Carolina (with 27% counted)
    Clinton: 49.8%
    Trump: 48.0%

    Virginia (16% counted)
    Trump: 53.3%
    Clinton: 42.0%

    Ohio (8% counted)
    Clinton: 54.6%
    Trump: 41.7%

    Georgia (2% counted)
    Trump: 71.1%
    Clinton: 27.4%

  232. yesindyref2 says:

    It’s looking like Clinton’s got it, though it’s too close to call!

    yesindyref2 calls it for Clinton 🙂

  233. Thepnr says:

    Live updates from the critical states here, refresh for latest.

  234. Cactus says:

    Here’s a song by Saxon.. Dallas 1pm

    Bon chance-say.

  235. yesindyref2 says:

    Looking at Sky, if I was them at the table I’d tell her to get way from my pizza and buy her own.

  236. Meg merrilees says:

    CNN florida state vote changing by the second a moment ago Trump was 853 ahead, now Clinton by about 1,500 and 87% of vote in. Nail biting stuff! Now she’s only ahead by 825… aargh!

  237. Cactus says:

    Soz, bad link.. Saxon denied.

  238. Tam Jardine says:


    Did you see the “relaxed” guy at the bar interviewed by Kay Burley- speaking directly to camera he said he’d written the name of his boss down because he couldn’t vote for a racist or a murderer…

    End of broadcast! Brilliant

  239. wull says:

    Many thanks Meg, at 12.55.

    Just back from checking tonight’s BBC website, and I have to admit that some, or even most of my post now turns out to be quite mistaken.

    Sorry about that.

    With the way the website was coming up on my screen, where I am, what I said was accurate for the last couple of weeks, but this no longer seems to be the case. The site now seems to have reverted to something much nearer to its old format.

    Is it possible that the website may not appear in exactly the same way everywhere, or on every computer?

    I am no expert on these things – far from it – and should no doubt avoid such topics. There certainly were some changes, which I did find frustrating, and hard to understand. But if they have been rectified, well and good.

    Basically, my previous post should be ignored. Thanks again for keeping me right.

    With regard to the Supreme Court, glad to hear the Welsh are also challenging. I thought Nicola Sturgeon’s speech today, on the same topic, well thought through, and encouraging.

    Now, I must get some sleep!

  240. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, that was funny!

    I think Trump has already conceded by saying he’s going to win a lot of states.

  241. Cactus says:

    Scotland first, Catalonia next..


  242. Cactus says:

    What shall be, shall be.


  243. Tam Jardine says:

    Florida looks guy tight… Trump in the lead with more than 90% of the votes in.

  244. K1 says:

    Interesting ‘live’ chat on NY Times coverage from their team…the cracks are showing…here’s a wee slice of their chat from a few minutes ago:

    Nate Cohn
    Reporter with The Upshot

    8:38 PM ET
    This is going to be a late night, folks. Clinton is doing better in metropolitan areas than Obama had done, but not vastly better. Trump, on the other hand, is making very big gains in rural America.

    Alan Rappeport

    8:39 PM ET
    Nate, would you say he’s outperforming his polling?

    Nate Cohn
    Reporter with The Upshot

    8:39 PM ET
    I don’t think that’s clear yet, Alan. But I think it’s quite possible.

  245. Tam Jardine says:

    K1 Aye- getting a wee bit of deja vu. The reporters on the BBC and Sky have been all but calling it for Clinton all night: “hard to see how Trump can win”… “a much harder path” and all the time I’m thinking – Trump’s won Florida??

  246. Meg merrilees says:

    I think he must have won Florida. Some of the last results had him on +80% of the vote, so that’s an awful lot of votes. 112,000 ahead now and still only about 91% counted. Will be very surprised if they suddenly find a whole batch of uncounted Clinton votes to bring her tally up.

    I guess it’s not all over till the fat lady sings and even then Trump has already indicated that he’s going to sue some areas for keeping the early ballots open longer than they should have done.

    Wonder if that lock down after the shooting in California will affect the vote there as that is a Clinton area?

  247. Thepnr says:

    Although I expect Clinton to win, ruling out Trump at this stage could be a mistake. A big mistake, he is very much still in the fight.

  248. yesindyref2 says:

    I think Trump was expected to win Florida, and it’s turned out to be closer than expected, with apparently the higher Clinton vote metropolitan areas still to come.

    I had little interest in this I can’t believe I got sucked in I should be working. But elections are fascinating …


  249. Cactus says:

    The BBC is buzzing tish now..

    YOU getting that.. volume?

  250. yesindyref2 says:

    OK, I’m going to go daft and predict Florida to Clinton. Hope that’s not the kiss of death!

  251. Cactus says:

    Aye, volume tweaking.

  252. Liz g says:

    Presenters on the Young Turks live stream sayin their getting worried & and looking pretty grim.
    Incase you were wondering the’re for Hillary!

  253. Thepnr says:


    Guarantee that your wrong, Trump will win Florida.

    Pay attention laddie.

  254. K1 says:

    North Carolina is very close too Tam…this is really tight…he could do it.

  255. Thepnr says:

    Oh FFS I think Trump will win.

  256. K1 says:

    Concern with Virginia and Michigan too…eyerbrows raised and nails gettin’ bitten in the metropolitan newsrooms across the world…I think the polls have been off? Deja vu richt enough.

  257. Cactus says:

    Aweright ma good friend thepnr.

    Long time 🙂

    See ye at the next Wingsdo.

  258. Skip_NC says:

    Anent North Carolina, the polls in a very heavily Democratic county stayed open later, due to computer problems earlier in the day. It will be very, very close. I get the sense that, in NCat least, voters have separated Trump from the Republicans in their minds.

  259. Thepnr says:


    I’m doing good my friend. Isn’t politics exciting 🙂

    See you soon, that’s a promise.

  260. Cactus says:


  261. Tam Jardine says:


    Seems to be about 50% of votes in somewhere called Broward (which is very heavily populated) in Florida still to come in- 473K votes for clinton so far, 211K for Trump so could be very tight- some Trump areas still with votes to count but nowhere like as populous so it could go Clinton after all.

    Guy tight as I say

  262. K1 says:

    NYT reporters again:

    Alan Rappeport

    9:23 PM ET
    Also, our Upshot forecast now has Clinton’s chances of winning the presidency at 59 percent. That’s down from 85 percent.

    Nate Cohn
    Reporter with The Upshot

    9:24 PM ET
    Trump’s huge margins among white working-class voters have spread into the Upper Midwest — the region of the country where Democrats depend most on their support. It gives Trump a very real chance in Michigan, Minnesota and Wisconsin.
    The early results in Wisconsin may not be representative, but they are very good for Trump.

  263. yesindyref2 says:

    Oops, peso dropping like a stone.

  264. K1 says:

    Washington Post live reporting:

    ‘This race right now is closer ‘than anyone’ expected’. I’m telling ye’s they’re bricking it…

  265. Meg merrilees says:

    Jitters building up in commentators. Now talking about the possibility that if Clinton wins Trump will NOT concede than what happens??? Never been there before…

  266. Liz g says:

    Young Turks just said NY Times now reporting Trump now favourite to win!

  267. Cactus says:


  268. Thepnr says:

    Bejesus Trump now leading New Hampshire. Stock up on food!

  269. K1 says:

    Virginia looks like it’s going to Trump.

    Alan Rappeport

    9:28 PM ET
    It seems like his strategy of focusing almost entirely on white voters is working better than many strategists expected.
    Alan Rappeport

    9:28 PM ET
    Nate, can you refresh everyone’s memory on Clinton’s path if she loses Florida, North Carolina and Ohio? What are her must-wins in that case?

    Nate Cohn
    Reporter with The Upshot

    9:34 PM ET
    Let’s assume she loses Arizona and Iowa, as well. If that’s true, then she would need Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan and either New Hampshire or Nevada.

  270. yesindyref2 says:

    On Sky some guy said Trump sending out gang to challenge Florida if neccessary.

  271. Tam Jardine says:


    There is potentially about+£150k votes for Clinton in Broward so I’m not sure if that is enough to win it for Clinton. He is about £138k in front. Dribs and drabs still to declare in other counties.

    It is literally “too close to call”

  272. K1 says:

    I hesitantly want to say that we are witnessing Amexit? (from humanity)

    …’this is not how this night was supposed to go…’ (washington post reporter, live)

    Washington reporters are getting very nervous, they literally have not ‘read’ this correctly.

  273. Cactus says:


  274. K1 says:

    Stu on twittershpere:

    ‘Pundits now entering the Paddy Ashdown Phase.’

  275. yesindyref2 says:

    Florida’s going to be a recount I think – and a challenge.

    @Thepnr – don’t forget the water and WD40!

  276. Thepnr says:

    @Tam Jardine

    Where are you getting the current polling for Broward if the result hasn’t been declared?

  277. Stoker says:

    ((((( SCOTLAND )))))

    Green Day – American idiot
    (listen to the words 😉 )

  278. Michael McCabe says:

    Is there Something Happening over the Water ?

  279. Meg merrilees says:

    Hilary climbing back up in Florida, reduced 138,000 gap down to 110,000 apparently 500/600k still to come in from South Florida which is heavily democratic. Might just do it!!!

    Peso has plunged 6%

  280. Liz g says:

    Young Turks again reporting NY Times predicting Trump chances of winning at 59%

  281. Thepnr says:

    Well it is looking to me like Trump, him of the hair, lover of golf and hater of wind turbines will today be the most powerful man in the Universe.

    Put that in yer pipe and smoke it. People are dumb. Official.

  282. Tam Jardine says:


    Trump has won Florida from what I can tell so yeah- we’re all fucked. I’m off to bed.

  283. Cherry says:

    good grief what are you going to do with WD40??

    Hi Cactus…you do make me smile! (waves)
    i’m off to bed it’s all so depressing…whoever wins!

    Oh by the way, Tam, I changed that doc (wink) to a pdf it’s so much more easy to read. I can’t believe the amount of debt, it’s just mind boggling. Our Grandchildren’s grandchildren will be paying this into infinity!
    Still no idea how i got it. Searched my history, nothing!
    Anyway enjoy the rest of your…morning.

    Scotland just for Cactus!

  284. Meg merrilees says:

    How about this for your first ever vote aged 91 and 80!

  285. yesindyref2 says:

    Wow, the guy on Sky saying recounts can take days or weeks, so my next crazy prediction is we won’t know the result today because there’s defo going to be recounts plural in plural states.

  286. Thepnr says:

    Game over. It’s Trump who will lead the free world.

  287. yesindyref2 says:

    @Thpenr, Tam
    Don’t despair, wait for Florida – if the “details” are right.

  288. Dr Jim says:

    John McTernan predicts: wrong again, the man’s like Punxitauny Phil in reverse

    To be fair though it was Kezia wot dun it wae her placard wavin

  289. Dr Jim says:

    Has there been talk of stilts yet

  290. yesindyref2 says:

    Well, I think my reading of the overall Florida versus the details must be wrong, but I don’t see why on the face of it, they haven’t called it for Trump. There’s not enough votes left now?

  291. Meg merrilees says:

    Website for emigration to Canada has crashed!

  292. Thepnr says:

    The’ve just called Florida for Trump.

  293. Onwards says:

    If Trump pulls this off he will have unlimited power with control of the senate and house also.

  294. Cactus says:

    I’ll take it 🙂

    Listen to yer wind blow, watch yer sun, rise.

  295. bugsbunny says:

    Clinton in the lead with 190 to 172. But she may not get more than 245 according to some analysts.

  296. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Well, I’m expecting Virginia will go with Clinton due to the Washington ‘burbs (and eventually Pennsylvania too), but both Florida and N. Carolina look increasingly likely for Trump. And one or both of Michigan and Wisconsin could follow Ohio out of the Democratic camp.

    Could be America’s answer to Brexit. I wonder how long it will take for all those dumbass hicks to realise that Trump has no earthly idea how “to make America great again”, or get them a decent-paying job.

    Maybe selling Trump steaks to Japan to accompany Leadsom’s tea and biscuits. Or bombing the cr*p out of somebody as a diversion.

  297. K1 says:

    North Carolina gone to Trump.

  298. Meg merrilees says:


    Yes if Trump wins this he’ll have both houses. Guess he can exercise ‘Royal Prerogative’.

    Heaven help us all.

  299. yesindyref2 says:

    Well, one thing you can say is that Trump says what he wants, he’s in your face not in your back. Clinton not. Who knows, he could be the best thing since sliced bread?

  300. K1 says:

    Is she loses Michigan and Wisconsin…it’s over.

    216 electoral votes for Trump at the moment, the highest number of Rep votes since Bush’s second term. He’s beat where even Romney or Cain reached in 2012 and 2008 elections.

  301. Cactus says:

    America has voted.

    It’s your turn next, Scotland.


  302. K1 says:

    Fox has called Wisconsin for Trump. Not confirmed from AP as yet.

  303. yesindyref2 says:

    So I guess I’m changing my mind, I’m calling it for Trump.

    I had no preference by the way. Clinton to me seems to be a warmonger, but predictable, establishment. Trump is no way predictable which is bad – and good.

  304. bugsbunny says:

    Trump has 244 26 short of winning. Michigan is worth 16 and Wisconsin 10. So if he wins those two states and clinton wins the rest, he’s still the next president. Alaska is worth 3 and has been solidly Republican except for 1964. With 71 seats in the lower House of Representatives still to call, the Republicans only need to win 7 seats for overall control. The Republican have 48 Senate seats with 6 seats to control the Senate. But in reality if they only win 50 the casting vote as far as I know is with the Vice President.

  305. bugsbunny says:

    That should read 6 seats still to be called, with 3 seats to control the Senate without the need for the Vice President’s casting vote.

  306. yesindyref2 says:

    Looks like even Pennsylvania could go Trump.

  307. bugsbunny says:

    Actually 6 seats up for grab in the Senate with only 2 needed by the Republicans to control the Senate without the need for the Vice President’s casting vote. House of Representatives now on 213 seats, 5 seats short of an overall majority. Last post has vanished. Will probably show up when I post this.

  308. bugsbunny says:

    Republicans now Control the House of Representatives. 6 Senate seats up for grab. They need 3 for overall control or 2 (not 3 as I said above) for control of the Senate with the Republican Vice President having the controlling vote. If the Independents which have 2 seats vote with the Republicans , then they control both houses. But I think, nay, I’m sure, they would sooner vote with the Democrats.

  309. yesindyref2 says:

    My wife just reminded me of the reason I gave that second debate to Trump, and thought he had a deadpan sense of humour. It was when Clinton had been slagging him off, and he just said “Nasty nasty woman”.

  310. Tinto Chiel says:

    It’s just you and me left, Nana.

    Will read all your links twice to take my mind off things…..

  311. dakk says:

    Well done to Donald Trump in succeeding in overcoming the Establishment to become President.

    Whether he will be a good President time will tell.

    One thing I do believe.

    His straight talking and calling out of the media and his opponents lies helped him win.

    Perhaps if SNP called out the BBC and the Yoon enemies of Scotland in such a manner we too could prevail.

  312. Smallaxe says:


    What are you doing down here,your links should be on the current thread.
    I’ve been looking for you.

    Good morning,Thanks for the links.Kettle’s on

    Peace Always

  313. mike d says:

    So after the “polls” putting clinton in the lead all week. Trump wins it . tells us all what we need to know about polls . a load of rigged bollox.

  314. orri says:

    The problem with the polls is that Trump may have been right all along about how they were being manipulated to show Clinton in the lead. It’s a risky strategy in that it relies on discouraging one set of voters more than it builds up their determination to vote whilst hopefully not encouraging apathy in the side you want to win. Even worse it also encourages some who want to make a protest vote rather than have the choice they make actually win. The same stupidity is evident in some of the comments from Leave voters who now regret being stupid.

  315. David Arnott says:


    Just saw this picture.

    For posting that kind of BS i wont be wasting my time with this lefty nonsense website any longer.

    Fk the SNP


  316. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    David Arnott

    Off you go then. Bye. We’ll miss you.

  317. Fred says:

    Watch yer heid oan the lobby lght!

  318. David MacGille-Mhuire says:

    May I ask?

    Who is Divit “lefty nonsense website” Are Not?

    He seems to be pished off and has, thankfully, pissed awa’ to, no doubt, blight some other poor devil’s website (God help them).

    Aren’t rainbows exquisitely bonny either with or without the Blessed Are Not (The Rock of the 77 Brigade gone in a puff of huff?).

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