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Wings Over Scotland

Please be wrong

Posted on November 09, 2016 by

It’s 4.36am. I’m going to go to bed in a minute. I’m hoping that I get up in a few hours and laugh at this, delighted at my own unfounded pessimism.














If not, don’t say we didn’t warn you.

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627 to “Please be wrong”

  1. K1

    Oh I think Andrew is referencing ‘one’ well kent face, but he’s being diplomatic (well that’s ma reading of your comment Andrew, ah could be mistaken though 😉 )

  2. Dave McEwan Hill

    The US is on dangerous grounds now. Less than half the eligible voters exercised that right. Clinton actually got more votes that Trump. A whole generation of progressive young Americans are aghast. The nation is seriously divided and democracy has failed it. Had Clinton run with Sanders she might have won. Has Sanders run he probably would have won.

    We will now see if there is more to Trump than presently meets the eye. I hope so. I hope he meets Putin. I hope he talks to the Chinese. I hope he pulls US out of its murderous invasions in the Middle East. Who knows.

  3. Ian Brotherhood

    @Liz g (10.27) –

    Hear hear.

    A lot of us are tetchy and tired and maybe even a bit depressed today, and it’s tempting to imagine giving someone a good belt in the chops.

    But using this general unhappiness to have another smack at people who are already down?


    The troublemakers on here tonight know who they are.

  4. ronnie anderson

    @Marcia ah hope you’ve payed your royalties oan that Anderson Shelter or donated tae the Wings Fund a’ll be watchin.

  5. mike cassidy

    1)In the real world, and not in somebody’s seriously troubled head –

    2)I can’t be the only one thinking that when you spend most of your presidential campaign openly stirring serious racial hatred in order to become president, it is a bit much to walk out on to a stage and ask for togetherness.

  6. Thepnr

    @Andrew Mclean

    Don’t think anyone has been taken in and not sure what you meant. I can see why people get wound up as views such as those of David Arnott are abhorrent to me. I certainly wasn’t taken in.

    We get this every now and again, not surprised that it took a Trump victory to increase the normal level of disagreement lol.

    It does give Independence supporters here though an opportunity to debate in public just why they might disagree with their right wing views. As far as I can remember that usually leaves those with such views floundering and gasping for air.

    I really think any neutral reading these exchanges would find the views of the Daily Mail cheerleader an abomination and so they will be far more likely to fall on to the side of the good guys.

    That is those that support Yes and a fairer society.

  7. Lenny Hartley

    John Pilger was on RT tonight being interviewed worth seeking it out and watching.

  8. Grouse Beater

    Ian Brotherhood: “The troublemakers on here tonight know who they are.”

    Not troubled to read back but I can tell it’s wee fascists doing exactly what the power elite want them to do, turn in on themselves and set citizen against citizen.

  9. heedtracker

    Its the end of the world and its always some one else’s fault.

    Everyone’s to blame, except teamBB tory meeja gimps says Graun.

    “So Comey takes his place in the hall of shame of the 2016 campaign, shuffling into the group photo alongside Julian Assange, who might as well have handed over his WikiLeaks operation to the Trump campaign.

    Assange kept up a drip feed of leaked emails from the Clinton team, many of them embarrassing, none devastating – while conspicuously leaking nothing that might damage the Republican nominee.

    WikiLeaks never produced Trump’s tax returns or the outtakes from The Apprentice said to contain yet more evidence that Trump is a bigot and sexual predator. It targeted Clinton alone.”

    That FBI guy must be one relieved FBI guy tonight. Tune in next week for rancid The Graun’s….

    ” Who is to blame for this awful UKOK zone Tory gov?”

    “Who is to blame for this awful Brexit?”

    “Who is to blame for this awful UKIP?”

    “Who is blame for this awful tory goblin Farage?”

  10. mike cassidy

    Lenny Hartley 10.43

    Pilger on RT here

  11. Liz g

    Heedtracker @ 10.46
    You forgot….who is to blame for messing with Toblerone….
    They slipped that in under the wire didn’t they!

  12. K1

    They will blame James Comey and the FBI. They will blame voter suppression and racism. They will blame Bernie or bust and misogyny. They will blame third parties and independent candidates. They will blame the corporate media for giving him the platform, social media for being a bullhorn, and WikiLeaks for airing the laundry.

    But this leaves out the force most responsible for creating the nightmare in which we now find ourselves wide awake: neoliberalism. That worldview – fully embodied by Hillary Clinton and her machine – is no match for Trump-style extremism. The decision to run one against the other is what sealed our fate. If we learn nothing else, can we please learn from that mistake?’

  13. heedtracker

    The troublemakers on here tonight know who they are.

    It looks like its Sturgeon’s Brexit legal action and this kind of creepy Sturgeon thing from Pacific Quay, what’s got online yoons jumping about.

  14. David Smith

    “…almost 50% not bothering/caring to vote…”

    Given the choice between a narcissistic sex pest and psychopathic, warmongering closet Satanist is anyone truly surprised?
    However, I feel slightly more optimistic today than I did yesterday as yet again, the Establishment has been dealt another GIRFUY and Hilary’s war plans are pushed back into the dark recess from whence they came. I hope this is a wake up call for both the USA which I would advise to have a bit of a ponder on the limits of its power and also for Europe to start to take responsibility for its own security. NATO is 25 years past its sell-by date and is latterly really a vehicle for US/Neoliberal Imperialism and continued US military occupation in Europe. I prefer to look at the current situation as an opportunity. In no way do I endorse Trump but I’m convinced that the alternative would have been a good deal worse. All the same, Trump now has four years to prove to his voters; time will tell if he can walk the walk as well as talking the talk.

  15. Brian Doonthetoon

    A pal of mine was an active SNP member. After the 1979 referendum, he emigrated to Canada, where he’s had a successful career in marine engineering. His favourite mantra is, “If there’s nothing else to argue about, we Scots will argue about the colour of dog $h!t€.”

    And so it comes to pass…

    Aw’ this left/right nonsense BEFORE WE ARE ACTUALLY INDEPENDENT, is hot air. When we are independent, we will have the FREEDOM to vote for the kind of country we want, according to our own beliefs.

    The first government of an independent Scotland will probably be SNP. It will be the job of that government to put into place things like setting up our own central bank and currency, and so on.

    All the Scottish parties will have put forward their manifestos to the Scottish electorate and we will have chosen the kind of government the majority of us want.

    There’s no point in going into Indyref2 pushing manifestos. We should be promoting the principle of INDEPENDENCE and when questions are asked about the minutae, as they will be, we should answer that those points will be addressed – when we have the independent power to address them.

    It’s been a long day (and thread!), iye?

  16. Stoker

    The pnr wrote:

    It does give Independence supporters here though an opportunity to debate in public….”

    And that for me Alex is one of the qualities which separates us from the monotonous hymns of the Jobby Jawed Yoons. We are all different, with one common binding factor, a desire to see our country free from London rule.

    Others might disagree but i quite like it when threads heat up with a mix of differing passions because it reveals intelligence levels that we don’t normally experience in the average daily comments whilst helping to form opinions and open eyes.

    Feck! Heaven help us if we all became wussies. Sorry for the ‘Heaven’ reference folks, but i couldn’t think of a better word.

  17. Gary45%

    Hey Kids,
    Let the dust settle and take stock of a strange situation, yes it was a big shock but this was the best?! 2 candidates America put up, vote Trump you lose, vote Clinton you lose, that sort of sums it up.

    Wingers know the agenda and are too smart to fall for internal bickering and will rise above the said “troublemakers”.
    Big happy love and respect to all.

  18. Onwards

    >”Indy ref 1 was quite vanilla left, and it went as far as it could. We need to go a lot further this time, and unity will get in the way of that.”


    The problem is that the SNP has to run Scotland in the meantime, and has to make traditional left/right decisions on tax and spending with the limited powers they have.

    What is the alternative to taking a middle of the road, pragmatic position trying to keep the bulk of the voters with us?
    If Scotland is becoming more naturally right wing, perhaps as as a side effect of a Brexit environment, then the SNP has to try and judge that and make changes.

    But look at what happened this year. A majority was lost – partly because of the hard left attacking the SNP as being too conservative.

    So now the Greens have the SNP over a barrel as a price of supporting a second referendum. We all know they have put a ban on every form of fracking for example, even if it would bring thousands of jobs.

    It’s a balancing act, but I would agree a second referendum campaign has to be run on a wide ranging basis, based on the basic principles of self-government, not a specific SNP manifesto.

    We don’t need a huge white paper. Just the basic principles of sovereignty and dignity as a nation to govern ourselves.

  19. heedtracker

    And finally, tory yoons in bettertogether agreement, united by Trump.

    Scott Arthur
    Without Irony: Nicola Sturgeon is saying Donald Trump has a duty to unite America…

    DM ?@MajorDMalpas 5h
    @DrScottThinks She has a duty to feck off and mind her own damned business!
    0 replies

  20. Rock

    Brexit was a major blow to the UK establishment.

    Trump is a major blow to the the US establishment.

    The “plebs” everywhere are extremely angry with career politicians ignoring them.

    Will European politicians who had come out against Trump now stop blindly following the USA?

    No, they will soon start cuddling up to Trump.

    Power to the “plebs”.

  21. Gary45%

    Oh aye I forgot to mention, expect KwianE on Empire Shortbread to have her hour long phone in of pish, all about Nicla and Alic wrecking Scotland by falling out with the ferret.

  22. heedtracker

    all about Nicla and Alic wrecking Scotland by falling out with the ferret.

    Oddly enough Graun uses Trump to win to smear the SNP, Sturgeon, and Salmond today. Its a Severin Carrell triple UKOK whammy.

    “Salmond gave his personal blessing to Trump’s Aberdeenshire course despite widespread opposition and hostility because of its impact on a legally protected coastal nature reserve.”

    Tory propaganda’s a very dirty business.

  23. Onwards

    Alex Salmond has a good piece on that BBC link above. All the Brexiters who think the UK will be at the front of the queue for a great trade deal from President Trump have another thing coming.

    At heart, Trump is an American nationalist. He targeted the votes of poor people who would normally vote democrat, and won enough of them over with American nationalism and protectionism.

  24. Thepnr


    It’s possible that the SNP also have a “ban” on fracking but in their own way. More than possible really.

    Other than that I too think it would be a good idea to run a second referendum based on purely the principles of Independences and not one parties policies.

    Maybe unlikely though as the standard has alraedy been set.

    “Fracking reports: SNP accused of kicking issue ‘into long grass”

  25. mr thms

    Brian Doonthetoon @ 11.07pm

    “The first government of an independent Scotland will probably be SNP.”

    If you think about it, it makes more sense that the first government of an independent Scotland should be a coalition of two of the former ‘unionist’ parties..

    It will be interesting to read the proposals for a Central Bank and currency in their election manifestos.

  26. Jock McDonnell

    @Brian Doonthetoon and others – exactly right.
    As some have said above, without Independence, you can’t make any of the changes you seek.
    A nice simple referendum message on sovereign power & the ability to react to & shape the future should limit the vulnerabilities to yoon attack.
    I’d also like a written constitution – preferably nicked from some respectable country, so the yoons can’t disparage it too much.

  27. Sandy

    Read a very small item on a seismic shock, 5.1 on reichter scale, recorded in Oklahoma, apparently where water injection had been used to produce & replace hydrocarbons. Fracking? Anyone with more information.

  28. Ian Brotherhood

    @Mike C (10.59) & Lenny Hartley –

    Thanks for bringing-up, and linking-to this Pilger interview.

    No more pointless bickering, from me at any rate, when we have stuff like this to get wur heids round…

  29. ian murray

    When John Mcternan tweeted the Rev, where he was campaigning, what state was it?
    How big a Clinton lead did he manage to overturn?

  30. Thepnr

    Before hitting the sack. think I might just watch the Pilger video.

    Can’t be bad to educate or brainwash (as some might say) yourself further Cheers guys for posting.

  31. Meg merrilees


    How about thins article for starters.
    Apparently, Oklahoma has experienced THOUSANDS of earthquakes in recent years ,nearly ALL attributed to ‘underground injection of waste water left over from oil and gas production’ ( Is that fracking?)

    or this link
    3, earthquakes today,
    27 in past week
    135 in past weeks
    2172 in past year!!!

    Amazing what can be hidden away in a small insignificant article

  32. Liz g

    Mike c @ 10.59 & Lenny Heartley.
    My thanks as well for the Pilger interview.
    Good to hear his main thrust is calling out the disgraceful media role,in all this.
    Especially since sometimes it seems like it is just us seeing it and ye begin to wonder if it’s yer imagination!!!!

  33. Cactus

    Good passionate debate. 500+

    Normality restored (for now!) 🙂

    Hold er steady, not too long to go now until the next article.

    Good morning Scotland.

  34. Sandy

    Meg Merrilees.
    Wow, had a look at your links.
    Reckon this needs to be expanded. What do you think, Rev?
    PS: I spent many years in hydrocarbon production, albeit off-shore. No expert but have been witness to “incidents”.

  35. Tom B


    Eric Joyce


    there never was a real economic case against independence, just a made up one

    his punch-up in parliament a stunt then to put him out in the cold, ergo plant, infiltrator, or poor choice of words/title?

    Alex Salmond has lost the plot, it’s very sad, we love him … but he’s getting embarassing
    the sun might melt the rocks etc., but he’s bending at the knee for recognition from on high, principles strewn along the way or playing some game none can fathom

    there are environmental aspects of golf-courses such as chemical run-offs, that make any more of them a bad thing, less a good thing, SEPA is a broken reed
    there are economic arguments
    no land with high potential for agricultural use or as refuge and habitat for wildlife and nature which is what lures visitors, as much as golf, should be given over to ‘leisure’, especially not moneyed leisure, right to roam assures you can walk on any part of the course, distracting players to laugh at their attire, aptitude or pretensions would merely be anti-social and beneath us
    it was right to oppose it on both thosethose grounds
    the independence movement is very much becoming home of the lower-middle classes, more likely playing at playing golf, not searching the rough wet through for lost balls to sell

    I hope Nicola’s expressed support for H Clinton was tit-for-tat for Trump sticking his private citizen neb into the 2014 referendum if he did, he certainly put the boot in afterwards, if so, some others on the indy side took it as an endorsement and fawned over the more repugnant Clinton whose private views conflict with her public front in alarming ways that show her more demonstratively racist etcetera than Trump’s demagoguery portends, or Nicola knows Trump’s opposition to Independence is firm, irrational, not based on our right to self-determination and development, and had nothing to lose, if so he’s going to be a mere nuisance but no more than that, we are many, together we are formidable and also beautiful

    and they can have a positive, productive dealings and friendly relations, but never with our braw lass as supplicant, which I know NS would never stoop to, so heads held high, Nicola will have Donald Trump and entourage for tea, in more ways than one.

  36. bjsalba

    @David Smith
    Wall Street will get its men even deeper into the Federal Government under Trump than under Clinton.

  37. Macart

    @Tom B

    Alex Salmond getting embarrassing? Lost the plot? You don’t think he knows exactly what he’s doing then?


    @ everyone else

    Two days ago Donald Trump was a businessman. A well known one and for all the wrong reasons. For the past several years he was a businessman who attempted to bully Scots law and government. He rode roughshod over Scots communities and has made a point of systematically insulting our politicians quite publicly.

    His recent campaign to gain the big chair in the Whitehouse has managed to lower the standard of campaigning in a country famed for its shabby, media driven politics by some degree. A campaign marked with violence, ignorance, xenophobic intolerance and empty sound bite.

    He now inhabits the office of a world leader, but he’s still nothing more than the same bullying, intolerant, egocentric self publicist and businessman he was two days ago. The American government’s view of Scottish independence is likewise just what it was two days ago. They’re against it for all the obvious bloody reasons and still hypocrites.

    To be a leader of your population you require a few things Mr Trump will never have, chiefest among them being empathy and fellow feeling, not to mention at least a degree of honesty and the ability and willingness to govern for ALL your population.

    I may not be the most party politically minded of souls, but I’m quite proud of the achievements and principles of our two most recent incumbents of the FMs chair. So maybe one day that office of a world leader in Washington will have one sitting in it worth the name, but that is NOT what Mr Trump will ever be. TBF Ms Clinton wasn’t much better a choice and in a number of ways worse. There was never going to be a fitting incumbent of that chair today and THAT is the saddest truth of the matter. The American public was faced with Hobson’s choice. A choice over naked greed or naked hatred. The most catastrophic failure of politics in American history IMV.

    As for our FMs recent past and present? They answer to us, not the senate, not the Oval office and not a small minded bigot with an ego problem. They protected our interests as best they could and let him know what they thought of him, both before his electoral run and during.

    If anyone wants our FMs to lack honesty, principle, integrity or a spine they can always vote for Kezia, Ruth or thingy. They have the relevant experience.

  38. David Arnott


    Having a look at the comments since i went on to do other things last night and I must say its extremely amusing.

    What we have here is a group of people trapped in their own echo chamber and if anyone drops a slightly different perspective into the equation we have a negative reaction.

    Many of you (not all) posting here are a good argument against Scottish independence – no intellectual rigor, overly emotional and unable to handle a different worldview. You pigeon hole anybody who doesn’t land neatly into your politically left sympathies as a ‘troll’ and ‘trouble maker’ or maybe even a ‘fake yes voter’.

    You will never accept it but your mindless political crybaby sympathies are exactly why many voted for Trump, why many voted for Brexit and why the SNP will have their position eroded. Yes i know – fingers in ears, lalala.

    There are those who support Scottish independence but also have the intelligence to know that a practical and pragmatic approach to economics is the only way forward, however anyone who suggests that we ditch some of the socialist sympathies and not demand that other peoples money, that other people earn be spent on other people whose problems are mainly from a lack of responsibility (no im not talking the disabled, mentally disadvantaged etc so dont try to strawman me again)

    Scotland is too heavily dependent on benefits. You can dislike that statement if you like, its not the fault of the majority of people (though like it or not there are many who would rather stay on benefit than actually work, or who have kids based purely on benefit).

    Scotland will never be successfully independent (or even make it that far) without input from the slightly more right of center ideas.

    Trump and Brexit happened for a number of reasons, but 1 was that pushy, emotional idiot lefties have gone too far and people ar getting sick of it. Particularly those who earn the money you guys like to spend on everyone else.

    I know – the usual culprits reading this probably see’s me sitting in a big house with never having had a money worry. Ive been a cleaner, security guard, kitchen porter and other lines of work. Im now self employed with my own very small business. So get it out of your head that only those born with a silver spoon can get fed up of this modern-lefty, mindless bullshit. Thats a fantasy you spin for yourself.

    However, I strongly suspect most of the worst of you crybullies havent a clue about much at all except that you are misguided enough to think that a political party or a political situation/independence will improve your lot in life. It wont, only you will improve your lot in life and when that fact finally dawns on you then you’ll find yourself in my situation and shaking your head in wonder at the kind of person you used to be.

  39. Dorothy Devine

    Seems the media is in meltdown over Mr Trump becoming President.

    The Independent has a plethora of ‘Trump BAD” articles the Guardian too – it’s keeping me amused to see their predictions, manipulations turn to drivelling dust.

    And what is even better is that the btl comments are sticking the boot in – is the world wakening up to the ordure of the mainstream media , I sincerely hope so.

  40. Ken500

    A tiny minority of the unpopular minority Green Party (aka pressure group) voters gained Trump the US presidency.

  41. sinky

    Still no MSM /BBC news on China’s non cancellation of Memorandum of Understanding of £1 billion trade deal.

    Yoons letter writers in Herald blaming Nicola Sturgeon for criticising Trump while arch yoon Allan Sutherland in Hootsman & Herald claiming UK has existed for 950 years.

  42. Breeks

    David Arnott at 7:52

    It’s not what you advocate David, it’s your suspect chronology.

    The time for heated argument to shape the Scotland we want to live in comes after the disciplined and mutually supportive campaign of getting Scotland over the threshold of Independence. The prerequisite of government is the power to govern.

    To agitate division before that threshold is crossed does not help anyone, but instead rearms the media with new angles of attack and petty squabbles they can blow out of proportion.

    To argue now whether Scotland is too dependent on benefits is no different to the 2014 bullshit about keeping the pound. It was utterly irrelevant white noise. Choice of currency was an ephemeral choice that could change according to prevailing government policy. The issue ignored was the sovereign capacity required to be making the choice in the first place.

    Your argument is the same. Why argue whether Scotland should be left or right when Scotland is free to be neither, until it has been empowered by its own clear sovereign authority?

    The left understands this, the right understands this, the greens understand this, and misfits like myself understand it too. If you want a right wing Scotland, then thats up to you, but for now exercise some self restraint, put your shoulder to the collective wheel which will actually deliver an independent Scotland, and then demand the right for your views to be heard.

  43. Ken500

    If you believe in a more fair, equal country, just and prosperous country. Join the SNP. Vote SNP/SNP and vote for Independence.

  44. davidb

    Bernie Sanders on the election of Mr Trump.

    “Donald Trump tapped into the anger of a declining middle class that is sick and tired of establishment economics, establishment politics and the establishment media. People are tired of working longer hours for lower wages, of seeing decent paying jobs go to China and other low-wage countries, of billionaires not paying any federal income taxes and of not being able to afford a college education for their kids – all while the very rich become much richer. ”

    Its not the end of the world. The bigger menace we seem to miss is that the two elected houses in the US are also Republican. If Hillary had won they would have been in conflict with her all the time. That all 3 branches of the legislature in the US are held by a party way to the right of most Europeans is an issue.

    Now can we all get back to contemplating our own navels. The US is a far away country of which we know little, and paradoxically too much.

  45. Smallaxe


    Good morning Nana,thanks for the links,kettle’s on

    Peace Always

  46. Neil Cook

    Re The media in meltdown !

    Personally I thought Trump got it absolutely bang on calling out the media, he used social media to his advantage as he knew msm wasn’t on his side. Trump was vilified and had to use all tactics to succeed.
    After all he is in business too beat the competition, sometimes you have to step on people’s toes to win the deal.You wouldn’t let your competitor walk all over you without being ruthless.
    For me the SNP need to suss out social media and use it like Trump to their advantage! At the moment they are doing it with a straitjacket on and mouth stuffed with a sock.
    Personally don’t believe all the crap banded about Trump because in the land of the law suit he would never be out of court and I prefer a businessman than a warmonger in control. Far from perfect but maybe the best choice in a crazy country.

  47. Lochside

    @ David Arnott: I came lately to the stushy that you created with your reactionary right wing narrative about ‘Scotland being too heavily dependent on benefits’.

    Your earlier statements referring to single parents etc. were straight out of the Daily Mail. You are entitled to have that view. But it demonstrates your limited understanding of what has occurred in Scotland since Thatcher. The de-industrialisation; the continuing emigration of our youth and educated indigenous professionals; the continuing deskilling of our workforce; and increase in zero hours and bogus ‘self-employed’ work.

    Having worked in unskilled jobs has obviously taught you nothing about the unfairness and injustice of the present neo-liberal economic system that has stripped away worker rights, including those rights to proper social security entitlement that the vast majority have paid for.

    My work experience has not been entirely dissimilar to yours.However, you draw the opposite conclusion from me: I desire equality of opportunity and distribution of wealth in a socially just Scottish society unburdened by greed and obscene wealth in the hands of a few. You desire to punish those less fortunate, less skilled and who have not striven to achieve the standard that you believe they should, as you believe yourself to have done.

    I am not a ‘bleeding heart’. Some people are not keen on work.If you think living on £73.10 a week for an adult over 25 years old is a viable alternative lifestyle then your are welcome to it.
    I hope you stay healthy David and your business flourishes. However, if either fails, you may have to experience, the hard way, the reality of what your bitter and sad vision of present day Scotland really means to the ‘others’ when you have to fall on the less than tender mercies of our State ‘Benefit’ system.

    I wish you all the best in your ‘heroes and zeros’ vision of society. It is not one that I will ever share with you. It is one that is not congruent with the majority of Scottish people in favour of our Self governance.

  48. CameronB Brodie

    I wonder if @piersmorgan would be so sanguine if the President Elect was considering demoting *his* relationships and removing *his* rights.

    Would someone on twitter kindly send this to DH and ask him what measures he is taking to improve his self-awareness?

    “The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

    “The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

  49. Ken500

    The 1%+ in the US can easily change their minds. The US has Senate elections every two years. Trump has two years? How long will he last? May has two years, Nicola has two years+. interesting times. Who will blink first?

  50. Macart


    Nice crop this morning Nana.

    Many thanks 🙂

  51. Ken500

    It is State legislation that primarily governs people lives in the US. Different States have different legislation. A bit like the EU, but smaller. A federal presidency. Not to be compared to UK administration in any way shape of form. Completely different.

  52. CameronB Brodie

    David Arnott
    Are you forgetting that independence allows Scotland to follow new strategies to national development? Also, are you perhaps forgetting that independence allows growth through the development of Scottish culture (knowledge and experience) and that the “Semiotic Theory of Space and Place” tell us that new practices and process emerge as a response to autonomy?

    Britain is an ideological construct, Scotland has authentic integrity.

    Scotland has a potential for a sustainable future, Britain does not.

  53. CameronB Brodie

    Strategies based on ideology are highly unlikely to deliver sustainable outcomes.

  54. CameronB Brodie

    David Arnott
    Also, what time-frame are you considering? It will take some time for Scotland to overcome three centuries of colonisation.

  55. Ken500

    Never have ‘journalists’? printed so much nonsense and drivel It is just becoming unreadable. Going for an all time low.

    Herald, the comic printing more regurgitated total lies about the Trump Development.

    Will they ever learn? Writing their own obituary.

  56. Dave Robb

    @ David Arnott

    By all means stand for election on your manifesto in an Independent Scotland – but get Independence first. You should have the democratic right to express a political view within the constraints of reasonable free speech, and to stand for election to attempt to persuade other of your right to then create the society you desire.

    I won’t be voting for your agenda – I’m still going for a moderate left consensus -as is MY right – AFTER we get there.

    I have no problem relating to a minority of family members who are Conservatives in heart and mind – but I have none who follow the Daily Mail line on social values. They seem to be moderate right wingers, not in favour of Independence, but they wouldn’t vote for you either.

    They’re old-fashioned, enlightened self-interest, compassionate types who can see the benefits of the NHS, social housing the Tories used to build, and are fairly tolerant of minorities.

    A different Scotland would make its own choices, but there is a substantial social consensus available around economic enterprise and social justice which the SNP is fairly close to.
    Maybe try this first before going to extremes?

    Every step to the radical right will turn off a large number of the left. There is no large group of the radical right in favour of Independence, so I don’t think your agenda is helpful in reaching the ultimate destination.

    By all means mke the case – but keep it calm and short.

  57. Jockanese Wind Talker

    Thanks for the links @
    Nana says at 8:22 am

    Interesting comments in the Chinese Global Times article linked in GAPonsonbys article.

    “The opposition parties may simply aim to frustrate the deal which would allow the Scottish National Party-led government to seek less economic support from the UK government,” Tian Dewen, a research fellow at the Institute of European Studies of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, told the Global Times.

    “We did not consider that the MOU had been canceled, but were aware that SinoFortone felt they could not move ahead at that time in the climate of hostility they faced from other parties,” Keith Brown, a spokesperson for Scotland’s Economy Secretary, was quoted by the BBC as saying.

    “However, they continued to believe in the benefits for Scotland of an infrastructure partnership with China and we remained committed to pursuing these opportunities,” Brown said.

    Zhang said that the investment environment in Scotland has yet to fully reflect a possible independence referendum, but is still healthy.

    “There are plenty of business opportunities in Scotland and in the UK in general,” Zhang said. Because of the Brexit referendum, the UK will become more dependent on international investment, he said.

    Also good stuff again from Callum McCaig MP, always reasoned and competent points and arguments from him and is night and day compared to the BLiS Ligger he replaced.

  58. Tom B

    It’s funny I see the SNP veering ever more rightwards in (big) business friendly ways and the lumpen-right climbing aboard. And the EU which has become their focus secondary to independence is simply a one-stop shop for corruption and lobbying, and was and still is a US creation, an adjunct to the mutual-suicide pact, high membership cost NATO. The two country (I hope I’ve satisfied the pedants there) union of U-KOK is falling apart at the seams, deservedly, a 27/28 member union is an even more unstable thing even the ‘core’ members are having doubts, my every instinct tells me the EU is not going hold together short-term much less longer. It can only be temporary, its time has expired, they have sat too long for any good that they have done … Right-wing governments dominate it, real-ugly ones, the US dominates them in ways that make the UK look like free-agents, Special Relationship, Airstrip-One and much more notwithstanding. We cannot change the European scene or trajectory, it is delusional to think we can. The Dutch vote to bar Ukraine from the EU, after the coup in which Germany and Poland are heavily involved, devastatingly so, that both countries are in ferment, is of the same nature as Brexit, and the election of Trump, people-power using whatever means available to thwart and defy the elite. The veto of Wallonia and thus Belgium of the EU-Canada trade deal has been quietly ignored as if it never happened. Maybe it never did, Winston.

    And people think the SNP are too left wing? I despair, the same no doubt think the BBC is too and the Graun.

  59. Brian Powell

    Jockanese Wind Talker

    Nicola Sturgeon should hammer this home at FM Questions.

  60. Jockanese Wind Talker

    “Nicola Sturgeon should hammer this home at FM Questions.”

    Agreed, @ Brian Powell says at 9:45 am

    Nicola Sturgeon should also should hammer home Tory hypocrisy for wanting fracking and subsidising nuclear energy whilst simultaneously delaying supporting onshore wind to the detriment of Scotland Island communities.

    It really is gloves off time for those who would damage Scotland economy to prop up the Union.

    Bet The Ruthenfuhrer, Dugdale and Wee Wullie/Patrick ‘lend us yer vote’ will be asking NS regarding her comments on Trump though.

  61. HandandShrimp

    Given the nature of the political fall out from the US elections yesterday I am mildly bemused that we have not one or two but three right wing independence supporters (M4, Peter and Andrew) complaining about the political position of the SNP. In the last Holyrood elections support for left of centre parties, SNP, Labour, Greens and Rise/SSP stood around 75%. That is where the centre of gravity stands in Scottish politics. Nicola’s political direction is only a problem for the Labour party not independence.

    I fully appreciate that there are libertarian and right wing supporters of independence and that in an independent Scotland they would they would argue their case. That is as it should be. It may be that Scotland even has a Trump moment and elects David Coburn FM but the SNP ploughing a less centre left furrow will not I believe attract more libertarians. The SNP could never be right wing enough for them and it simply would alienate the other 75%.

    In order to achieve independence the tent needs to be big enough to include Labour supporters and Liberal supporters and those libertarians that see it as the best chance for right wing politics in Scotland. To pitch to the right to the extent that Andrew would like would be folly.

  62. ScottieDog

    @David Arnold
    “Scotland is too heavily dependent on benefits. You can dislike that statement if you like, its not the fault of the majority of people (though like it or not there are many who would rather stay on benefit than actually work, or who have kids based purely on benefit).”

    Sadly this has become the mainstream view that people on benefits drag the majority down. The thing is for the past 40 years the dominant neoliberal economic strategy has been to use unemployment as a tool to combat inflation (in its ignorance) So unemployment by design is baked into the neoliberal cake for starters.

    So many of the older generation now claim that the young are lazy forgetting or not realising that they themselves were beneficiaries of a policy of post-war full employment and a much higher deficits than we see today. The virtual job guarantee and relatively low cost of housing (before thatchers Ponzi scheme) meant more social mobility. Now it’s a case of zero hour contracts for peanuts and a part share in something with someone else or staying with the parents.

    Yes there’s a generational malaise and its down to lack of investment and a generation of governance that doesn’t actually understand how an economy works.

    I’m assuming you favour small government. Thats fair enough but at the moment we have a very large hand of government, yet that ‘invisible hand’ is cupped underneath the city of london. Do you think it an accident that London and the SE has a lower deficit than anywhere else? Of course the tax yield is higher there – just think back to the aftermath 2008 when the public was underwriting their bonus culture and tripling the national debt in the process. £ invested precede tax yield. Where do you think £ you pay in tax comes from?

    Of course then we have the corporate welfare strategy of QE. Now running at £445Bn to pump up assets on the stock exchange with huge financial benefit to the wealthiest and very little for the rest of us. That’s a mighty big hand of govt – but only for the few.

    Perhaps you can look at the £1.6tn stock of UK debt and account for how much of that can be attributed to Scotland when we would very obviously have been running a trade surplus for the past 30 years.

    There certainly is a spiral of low confidence amongst the unemployed. I have been there and was surprised at how quickly I got stuck in a rut with receding self-worth. of course there will be some who will game the system – for 100s or maybe 1000s – but not billions. Sadly the TV media cleverly fixates on these people making us believe that they ARE the problem, ignoring the wealth transfer which takes place each and everyday by our bank friendly govt.

    Yes we need to grow the economy and we need meaningful employment but that requires investment and it ain’t going to come from Westminster. We are going to have to do it ourselves but it requires direct investment from the Scottish govt and that requires a new country and a new currency.

    spending = income. We won’t have higher tax revenues until £s or scot £s are spent into circulation.
    Capitalism runs on sales. if there’s less money in the economy then there is less demand. Companies won’t move into an economic area of little demand. Why would they?

  63. David

    Well done to Breeks at 8:33am, and Lochside at 8:48am, for giving non-sweary, rational, and convincing rebuttals to the “I’m alright Jack” policies espoused by D.A.

    He is of the opinion that “Scotland is too heavily dependent on benefits”, showing that he is sadly, perhaps wilfully, ignorant of the reality.
    It is Westminster-ruled rUK that is the benefit junkie, and it has been for centuries. Scotland’s wealth goes south, and in return we get back buttons.

    As CameronB wrote “Scotland has a potential for a sustainable future.” Our best chance of achieving this future is to be in charge of our own destiny, of our own country. Goodbye ‘North Britain’, and welcome back independent Scotland.

    Time for real change. Time to rule ourselves. Time for IndyRef2.

  64. Brian Powell

    Jockanese Wind Talker

    Tricky for Ruth!

    “Ruth Davidson @RuthDavidsonMSP
    So, twitter, we’re all agreed? Trump’s a clay-brained guts, knotty-pated fool, whoreson obscene greasy tallow-catch, right?”

    And K Dugdale spent 3 days in the US campaigning for Hilary Clinton.

  65. Chic McGregor

    The American elite do seem to have a predilection for a dynastic political leadership, Kennedys, Bushs, Clintons.

    I wonder if it is a kind of surrogate royal family for them, their warped idea of the natural order of elitery. They clearly admire the UK royal family often to the point of envy/sycophancy.

    If so, unfortunately for them, the American public do not seem to agree for the most part, although baby Bush did get in but only after threatening to hang someone called Chad in Florida (or something like that).

    What bets next up Michelle Obama?

  66. Socrates MacSporran

    We really are living in “interesting” times, more-so given The Donald’s election win.

    Hitherto DT has been surrounded by corporate “Yes Men”. He strikes me as not the sort of meglomaniac who will take kindly to being told: “You cannot do this”. So, when some General tells him: “Sorry Mr President, but, you cannot nuke Moscow”, or a State Department official says: “No Mr President, you cannot just build that wall”, he will not like it. He is in for a short, sharp lesson in the reality that Realpolitik is nothing like campaigning.

    So, possibly some turmoil, before the Washington machine breaks him to realities.

    Over here, the turmoil will continue, until the Tories – if they ever do – work out what Brexit means. Here too, new PM May is surely learning just how limited her powers actually are.

    So, Nicola and the SNP have, in my view, to get their act together quickly and decide what they should do that is best for Scotland in the current unstable atmosphere elsewhere.

    I would go for Indyref2 now – because I don’t think Westminster could simultaneously handle properly – finding out where they stand with Trump, Brexit and an Independence referendum.

    I would also reckon, of these three situations, they would probably rate Scottish independence the least-important, put their weakest talent on it and we could win a very good exit deal.

    BUT, We in the independence movement have to get our act together – even-more-quickly. We have to be singing from the same hymn sheet, concentrating on the main prize – Independence, then, once we have won it, we can argue over the small print, among ourselves, free from the diversion of England.

    What happens post-Independence will be a huge challenge for the SNP. Those former Tories (and there are many) who despaired of an increasingly-London-centric Tory party and joined the SNP, might well be attracted back to a non-Union, pro-business Scottish Tory party. The similarly thinking former Labour voters might well be attracted back to a re-born Scottish Labour Party, shorn of the stumblebums in the current leadership. Why, the Lib-Dems might even rise again.

    But, pre-Independence, we need to have people working towards a fairer, kinder Scotland, and, post-Independence, being less politically tribal and putting Scotland first.

    It could happen, but, it will take a lot of work.

    But, the first job is to drain the (political) swamp, by winning our Freedom from Westminster. Let’s get that done.

  67. CameronB Brodie

    The relationship between human rights and development is a complex, important, contemporary and yet not very well understood.

  68. carjamtic

    David Arnott @ 7:52

    That’s your version of events,your story,thanks for sharing,yes,you have had to adapt to survive and there is nothing wrong with personal development,in fact,it is to be encouraged.

    There are many other versions,some similiar,some completely different,yes we hear your voice,but there are many other voices,everyone is on a personal journey,who is to be the judge of them ? You ? Me ?.

    Is the young squaddie who was injured or killed in an illegal war to be applauded,YES,he gave us everything,that is you and me,is the bastard who put him in that unesssary position to be rewarded,NO.

    Are the richest 1% to be hero worshipped,as an example to us all,in a world full of flag waving war mongerers,is that the world we want ?.

    Are we to destroy the planet in the name of ‘progress’ ? Are you ready to say fuck it and push that button ?.

    We have,obviously just skimmed the surface of the many issues,the many questions that need answered,the many voices we hear,the many stories out there (many as yet untold).

    There are many paths to ‘enlightenment’,simplistic sound bytes are all very well,but the reality is,only each of us individually,can decide what kind of society we what to be part of.

    Good luck with your ‘journey’ but all I ask,don’t be too judgemental on others,they maybe further down the road than you or perhaps even at the start of their journey.

    You may prefer to not to be heard,to remain complicitly silent,then that choice is yours and welcome to UKOK….IMO,our voices,All our voices,need to be heard….that’s just one (non flag waving) reason Scotland needs to regain it’s Independence…there are many more.

    Live Long and Prosper.

  69. Ken500

    The MSM goes into stupidity overdrive. Showing their ignorance and incompetence. Do they never learn?

    Why was Dugdale away on an America jolly on Scottish taxpayers money? She obviously has not enough to do. Useless.

    The Unionist 3rd rate rejects.

    The Westminster/Unionists unfairly taxing the Oil and Gas sector at 40%. Losing thousands of jobs in Scotland. Then importing untaxed, fracked US Gas and Oil. They are a complete and utter disgrace.

  70. HandandShrimp

    Ruth going very Shakespearean with the insults there. I believe Kezia simply called Trump “an arse” and Patrick considers him less than favourably. His only mate in Scotland is Coburn.

    However, I am sure that a German newspaper ran with the headline “Night of the Horror Clown” People might consider that Trump will have a naughty list of all those who insulted him but it will a hell of a long list for him to go through.

    I see that Trump is set to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel (an election pledge apparently, that Bibi wants to cash in). I don’t think the ME is going to get any more peaceful in the immediate future.

  71. yesindyref2

    It is one that is not congruent with the majority of Scottish people in favour of our Self governance.

    Exactly Lochside, exactly correct. The wee slight problem there is that the current support for Indy is around 48%.

    So how do we get over the line of 50%, if the Independence supporters already contain most of the people who are left of centre?

    The answer is that there need to be others like David Arnott putting his views, hopefully containing Independence, to those places and people who are not left leaning, in fact right leaning.

    Like the Conservatives (15-20%), the 14% of SNP voters who voted NO, those LibDems who are right of centre (40% voted YES – why not make it 65%?) – and those who vote Labour fashionably, as do quite a lot of middle-class well off people. Very possibly half of the current Labour support.

    The last thing they want to see is “Vote YES for more welfare and higher taxes”.

  72. Juteman

    Watching Tristram Hunt on the Victoria Derbyshire show.
    His answer to Trump? The Labour Party should start to be more patriotic and proud of their Englishness. Mmmmmm

  73. yesindyref2

    @Socrates MacSporran
    Actually I think Donald Trump has been well used to being told no, you can’t do that. He’s been bankrupt however many times, and has had financial backers – and still does. He doesn’t own his hotels, he sells his name to corporate backers. I don’t think he owns Turnberry, could be wrong, it’s owned by his company and its corporate investors. I think the danger isn’t what people including the mad biased ignorant media think it is. I think the potential danger comes from his corporate backers. Which ultimately will probably soften his campaign rhetoric, even if he doesn’t himself.

    About the time of the Menie hoohah I did some research for interest, just a little.

  74. Lochside

    Yesindyref2: ‘The wee slight problem there is that the current support for Indy is around 48%’

    Mebbee ayes mebbe naw….what is certain that the significant element of the REF ‘Naw’ Vote were pensioners of all political hues…frightened into protecting their welfare benefit i.e. their pension by Big Bad Broony the clunking fisted liar.

    Scotland hasn’t had a right wing majority vote i.e tory or Scottish unionist since the 1950s. People who vote Unionist are not uniformly right wing neoliberal thinkers in this country, many are just plain feart of losing the little that they have.

  75. CameronB Brodie

    We can achieve development that addresses the needs of all, in a sustainable fashion, we simply need to ditch neo-liberalism. We can achieve progress without destroying the prospects of future generations but only if there is the political will to do so.

  76. heedtracker

    Day 1, Graun, in the brave new Trump era…

    “UK golden eagle population soars to new heights
    Numbers pass the level deemed viable for the raptor’s long-term survival but it remains missing from a third of its traditional territories”

    Oh well, we are only a region of greater England and at least Graun’s not blaming Alex Salmond for Trump this morn, or global warming, or the environmental destruction of Scotland, by a freakin golf course.

    Tory yoons be crazy, red and blue, or they think we are. What’s my main yoon Dr NO! up to this lovely Scottish morning,

    Scott Arthur Retweeted
    Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 11h11 hours ago
    Danger – Ironly Alert!!!

    Nicola Sturgeon says Trump must show he is president for everyone

    He means shut up and go away woman. They all do. Its yoon thing.

  77. yesindyref2

    @Dave Robb
    There is no large group of the radical right in favour of Independence

    That’s correct, about 4% of Conservative voters voted YES. I want nearer 50% of them to vote YES. They should do, the opportunities for personal wealth in Independent Scotladn are beyond belief – and that’s the probelm – belief. It needs right of centre YES supporters to push that view. Wealthy Nation was a fabulous resource, but very little known about. Can’t find their article any more, but I used them constantly to refute unionist claims about central bank, LOLR, sterlingisation, currency in general. Sadly not to a wide enough audience (btl in the Herald).

    but for now exercise some self restraint, put your shoulder to the collective wheel which will actually deliver an independent Scotland

    It might but I doubt it. Indy needs to reach the parts that the previous brilliant effort didn’t reach – the right of centre, and even the wary centre. And that’s where the likes of David Arnott can come in – and should be encouraged not despised.

    Personally by the way I’m not right of centre, left of centre nor even centre, those are political party terms and don’t reflect the way society SHOULD become, but that’s another story.

  78. Bob Mack

    Independence must be a broad Church with a wide door. We all have different views of what we want politically and socially. I have many indy supporting colleagues with whom I have just that factor in common. We differ on many things.

    We must welcome all who try the door and help them inside regardless of our own views,

    Just now I cannot help get the feeling we are a a like caged wild animals pacing back and forth looking for a way out. This is why aggression and depression sets in and ultimately frustration .

    I think the button needs to be pressed soon or we will like the aforementioned caged lions turn on each other and our dream will suffer.

  79. yesindyref2

    @Dave Robb
    Sorry, there is such a group, and The National gives one of its founders column space – The National recognises the problem too. Long may it continue and prosper.

  80. Ken500

    Sky News incompetent, ignorant cub reporter now indulging in a total useless, biased report about the Scottish fishing industry and Brexit.

    Do they never learn. Is there no end to their ignorance?

  81. yesindyref2

    many are just plain feart of losing the little that they have.

    Exactly. Which is why the other side of left-wing policies also needs to be advocated, and advocated strongly.

    The point of Independence is that people can vote for the aprty they want, with policies they like, that can be fully implemented rather than hamstrung by the limited powers available under Devolution.

    The ideal message is that risk-takers and wealth-makers, and those well off already can keep their wealth, make it even more, while at the same time every citizen has the basics of shelter, water, food, waste disposal (!!), clothing, education and healthcare. Can Scotland do that? Of course we f**king can.

  82. galamcennalath

    Lochside says:

    Scotland hasn’t had a right wing majority vote i.e tory or Scottish unionist since the 1950s. People who vote Unionist are not uniformly right wing neoliberal thinkers in this country, many are just plain feart of losing the little that they have.

    The 1950s vote was certainly unionist, but for the majority, not a right wing choice. It was in part a sectarian choice and in part actually a backlash against Labour centralisation and moving power to London. The National Covenant for home rule had been widely supported, too.

    As you say, today backers of Unionist parties, even the Tories, aren’t necessarily neo liberals or even rightwing.

    It more about resistance to change and conservatism with a wee ‘c’.

    We now find ourselves in a position where change is just as likely with a UK future as it is with Indy. There will be no status quo option for those feart of change to fall back on.

    We need to show that an Indy future is not only safer, but fairer. This needs comparison and negative highlighting of the UK’s path.

  83. heedtracker

    BBC Scotland currently hard at work smearing SNP, Salmond, Scotland, Scottish democracy, all with Trump, and ofcourse Trump Mennie, the environmental hell that is a golf course at Balmeddie, in the dunes, what are man made to start with.

    Its the end of planet earth and its all down to Salmond, Trump and golf courses, explain 200 lovely and honest BBC Scotland hacks, 200! Its also makes lazy scrounger women have lots of babies on the tax payers largess and that’s why I’m a yoonster tory.

    Vote Ruthie Babes!

  84. mike cassidy

    David B 8.41

    People are tired of working longer hours for lower wages, of seeing decent paying jobs go to China and other low-wage countries, of billionaires not paying any federal income taxes and of not being able to afford a college education for their kids – all while the very rich become much richer. ”

    And so they voted for a billionaire tax dodger.

    And not just any tax dodger.

    A tax dodger who managed to dodge enough tax to finance a personal run at the White House.

    And who proposed the significant tax cuts for the very rich.

    People in the top 0.01 percent, making $3.7 million or more in a year, would receive $1 million in annual tax savings.

    “He is proposing tax cuts for the very people he ran against in his campaign,”


    Makes our Brexit voters who believed the bus slogans of those salt-of-the-earth-types like Farage, Johnson and Gove look like political intellectuals.

  85. heedtracker

    Get that 200 BBC Scotland hacks from Kevin Mackena o the Graun, sometimes. Well by following hard core tory yoon Kevrage through the wild and wacky world of planet toryboy Scotsman.

    Sneering self loathing, its tory Scots thing.

    Kevin McKenna ?@kmckenna63 Nov 8
    Anyone know if any BBC Scotland journalists are part of the battalion from London sent to cover the US election?

    Iain MartinVerified account
    @kmckenna63 is there anything that can’t be turned into a Scottish grievance? Is a massive story. Loads of UK hacks are covering it. Good.

    Kevin McKenna ?@kmckenna63 Nov 8
    @iainmartin1 BBC Scotland has more than 200 journalists. Are you saying none of them are up to covering an ‘international’ story?

    Paul Sinclair ?@paulbsinclair Nov 8
    @kmckenna63 @iainmartin1 You are so right Kevin. James Naughtie, Laura Bicker and James Cook are clearly not Scottish. Send another BBC corr for authenticity

    Magnus Gardham

    @iainmartin1 @kmckenna63 – Kevin, can’t believe you missed the ‘fury’Magnus Gardham added,
    The National @ScotNational
    For 1st time in recent history, BBC Scot will have to bid for coverage of 1 of the world’s biggest political events.

    Iain Martin ?@iainmartin1 Nov 8
    @M_Gardham Oh good grief. It is embarrassing. The cringe. BTW @afneil presenting TV. And Naughtie on R4. Both Scots. @kmckenna63

    Kevin Hague Retweeted Iain Martin
    QTWTAINKevin Hague added,
    Iain Martin @iainmartin1
    @kmckenna63 is there anything that can’t be turned into a Scottish grievance? Is a massive story. Loads of UK hacks are covering it. Good.

    Absolute chaos. Planet toryboy hackdom in all its UKOK glory. No wonder Chinese investors decided to hang back a bit.

  86. yesindyref2

    “Fairer” is a nice word, but people worried about change don’t want to be worse off to achieve it. They can afford a new car every 5 years, holiday every year, dinner out every week, cinema, theater perhaps, the odd jolly down to London. “Fairer? We work hard for what we have, and did without before we made it”.

    I’m afraid with a lot of people, that also comes down to David Arnott’s point which seems to have been too nastily personalised by too many people who normally know better, so let’s put it in terms of Mr & Mrs Milngavie:

    “Why should we give up any of that so that lazy scroungers can have 42″ TVs, drugs, booze, car, holdidays, and single women can have kids and enjoy a lifestyle we have to put up with a nasty boss and work hard for?”.

    We need to get Mr & Mrs Milngavie to vote YES. They don’t read the DM by the way, it’s the Guardian or the DT, Times or Independent.

    Anyway, I’m off to my scratcher, working all night to get an order out – should have been done days ago but I got distracted.

    As usual.

  87. Ken500

    How dare Westminster Unionists unelected in Scotland take unfair, unequal decisions which totally destroy the Scottish economy. With unfair , unequal taxes and decisions. Losing Scotland thousands of jobs and £Billions. Along with the sycophantic lying, Press.

  88. CameronB Brodie

    That’s correct, about 4% of Conservative voters voted YES. I want nearer 50% of them to vote YES. They should do, the opportunities for personal wealth in Independent Scotladn are beyond belief – and that’s the probelm – belief.

    Scotland’s economy has been suppressed by development strategies based on the ideology of British nationhood (e.g. interest rates set to suite an over-heated London and the south-east). Released from such ideological constraints, Scotland’s economy would be able to perform as a normal economy, not as that of a parasitised colony. Of course, there’s all that useless oil well have to deal with, so that’s a problem.

    Remember folks, England has a chronic shortage of housing and is planning for annual droughts. Energy security is also a major problem for England.

  89. Big Jock

    Well for Tories it’s fundamentally about identity. They see themselves as Brits and all the money in the world won’t change that. I would say 80% of Tories are dyed in the wool Queen loving morons. Hence Ruth on tanks with union flags and Murdo Fraser tweeting about queens 11.

    I couldn’t care less about trying to appeal to these clowns. If we win it will be despite them. Remember they did all in their power to prevent devolution. They don’t see Scotland as a nation other than Hogmanay and Shortbread with a union flag on it.

    To get us over the line we need the pro-EU soft no’s. I reckon we can get 10% of them. It’s not going to be a landslide for yes. We will get 55-56%. Enough to get us there and once Scotland becomes normalised the country can proceed to modernise itself.

    As for the hard line Tory Brits. I don’t like them now and I won’t like then after independence. That’s perfectly normal in any nation. Right wingers are divisive people who only care about number 1.

  90. heedtracker

    If hard core toryboys want to stop women have children while on benefits, they need to change the benefits system. But that probably wouldn’t work as women seem to have babies regardless.

    Howsabout sterilising women beneath a certain income level? That could work. Get the ATOS sanctioning crews involved. If women cant pay their way, or even show a well planned career path, in good jobs, like the media, or IT, they can be sterilised at the Job Centres. It needn’t be permanent, just long enough until low paid scrounger women get their careers going again. Women already pregnant should hand over the children to nice people with good jobs so that they can be raised properly and not sponge off of the tax payers largess.

    Vote Ruthie Babes. A working class conservative.

  91. heedtracker

    . Losing Scotland thousands of jobs and £Billions. Along with the sycophantic lying, Press.

    China will be back. Toryboy buffoons like UK hackdom’s Glackin of the Times may have put off Chinese investors this month but there are hard economic drivers behind this kind of Chinese infrastructure spends in foreign countries.

    And its all down to the fact that long term government bond yields are low to nominal now. So a 20 year UK gov bond gives almost no return but a £12bn Chinese infrastructure spend in Scotland certainly does.

    So China has all the cash and they will be back to Scotland, to make money and regardless of the assorted tory twerps in newsrooms like Pacific Quay, what’s also a massive returning infrastructure investment.

    And infrastructure doesn’t go anywhere. It just sits there, earning lots of very real interest, for foreigners, like Norway, who are not run by planet toryboy.

  92. Breeks

    Tom B…

    I have some sympathy for, but disagreement with, David Arnott, but I can’t even get a handle on your perspective at all. Your misery and despair seems so contrived it would be humorous if it wasn’t for the scary fact you might actually be serious.

    I’m not going to get into a petty oneupmanship about which government is nastier that which other government, because right now, Scotland is joined at the hip with the only EU government with an unchallenged run at securing the title of being the most downright stupid and short sighted.

    The imminent collapse of Europe is a fantasy propagated by Brexiteers who would have us believe there were two pages to the Brexit Beermat Manifesto.

    Heads up Tom B, my local Council is corrupt and rotten to the core, but the solution is not to destroy the council, but to destroy the corruption which taints it.

    The EU is a great institution with noble ideals. It has kept the peace in Europe for 70 years, when the starting point was outright mistrust and bloodthirsty hatred. You look at other political alliances, like NATO, the UN, and compare how narrow and skeletal these alliances actual are, then compare them to fleshed out body and soul of European Union membership. The French aren’t just foreign signatories on a document, they are my friends. The Dutch are my friends. The Germans are my friends. I kick myself for missing out on the opportunities at school to learn how to speak German, Italian, Spanish, Polish…

    I have never once felt threatened by Europe. Never. European coalition has made petty imperialism which vexed Europe and plundered the wider world for centuries an arcane philosophy. The EU has never been the cause of a war, but instead was Europe’s answer to a European continent continually destroyed by war. That alone makes it a worthy institution worth keeping.

    If the EU was indeed to collapse, then what would there be to replace it but 28 mini Brexit tragedies and a return to the self centred imperial pissing contests and fractious defence pacts and treaties which so quickly ratcheted up the momentum for Armageddon when Achduke Ferdinand stopped a bullet.

    If Britains Exit has indeed lit the fuse on the destruction of the EU, then that shameful folly should lie as heavy on our conscience as the centuries of Imperialsist aggression and exploitation and destruction of native culture committed under the Butchers apron. If that is Britain’s aim, the panacea for its troubles, then I want no part of it. I am European, and for as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, I am staying European.

  93. Macart

    Making over the SNP to be the vehicle you want it to be isn’t going to happen. Saying they’re too left or too right for individual tastes is peachy and all, but that isn’t what they are there for and shouldn’t be perceived that way as far as the YES movement is concerned. With the best will possible no party can be all things to all people otherwise they stand for nothing at all.

    The YES movement is far wider than that and IMV should see the current SG simply as gateholders for their democratic right to self determination only. The one thing all of those who support the principle of independence and self determination should be able to get behind is that their party of government is ready, willing and able to provide the population with freedom of choice.

    Whether your views are left, left of centre, centrist, centre right or right, making your case on independence based upon your own preference amongst those of like minded leanings seems a more commonsense approach than attempting to convert or denigrate those with whom you share one common ideal.

    Just a thought.

  94. Dave McEwan Hill

    Big Jock at 11.39

    Nice post.

  95. Robert Peffers


    Read an item on BBC Ceefax this morning that gave me reason to have a wee chuckle to myself but then realised it illustrates just how the BBC propaganda sometimes works.

    The item states, under the headline, “Guides and scouts ‘gain boost for life’.”

    People who were in the scouts or guides in childhood have better mental health in later life, a study suggests,

    Analysis of a study of 10,000 people found ex-members were 15% less likely than other adults to suffer anxiety or mood disorders at the age of 50.

    Now there is nothing whatsoever wrong with the study nor with the scientific data. The error comes in the supposed scientific conclusion drawn from analysis by the BBC headline writer.

    Their conclusion is not in the item itself but is in the headline that states, ““Guides and scouts ‘gain boost for life’.” They do nothing of the sort.

    The headline claims that by joining the scouts or guides it will give the recruit better mental health. However, the text in the article says nothing of the sort, for the proper conclusion, by anyone with a real scientific background would arrive at a quite different, and more correct, conclusion.

    The correct conclusion is that the type of person, who joins the scouts or guides is the type of person more likely to have better mental health in later life.

    Ergo, they do not gain it by joining the organisation because they are already predisposed to have better mental health at age 50. Furthermore, it shows that the kind of person who does not join such quasi-military organisations is more likely to not be predisposed to have better mental health at age 50.

    However, neither correct conclusion has concluded the organisations have anything whatsoever to do with the matter of better mental health.

    This illustrates the sheer lack of investigative skills of the BBC, self styled, journalists and moreso of their headline writers.

  96. Clapper57

    Brexit – people disconnected a vote against establishment.

    Trump elected – people disconnected a vote against establishment.

    Indy supporters – Cult…Nats

    Corbyn supporters – Bullies….Corbynistas

    Amazingly convenient how the union supporters and the ‘establishment’ in their post analysis find it so easy to legitimise the results of both Brexit and Trump’s election as President and yet are unwilling to legitimise and justify the legitimate support for both Indy and Corbyn.

    This is why we have Brexit and Trump elected because the combined political and media ‘establishment’ failed to predict and refused to recognise a reality which they the ‘establishment’ did not control or dictate to ( Mail & Express like the Dandy and Beano naturally excluded from the ‘media’ definition).

    They ARE worried because now they know ANYTHING is possible and WE now know that the more THEY fight against us the more chance WE have of winning….I give you the reality of Project Fear Brexit and Trump elected……will they, that is the establishment, EVER learn?…..probably not…..and that is where WE now have the real opportunity to ‘take back control’.

    There is only one REAL Independence day…..and it is NOT the ones hijacked by both Brexit and Trump’s election.

    2016 has shown us that there is real power attainable with the combined will of the people and when our time comes we need to seize it with both hands and ‘get OUR country back’.

  97. CameronB Brodie

    That’s correct, about 4% of Conservative voters voted YES. I want nearer 50% of them to vote YES. They should do, the opportunities for personal wealth in Independent Scotladn are beyond belief – and that’s the probelm – belief.

    Britain is an ideological construct. Adherence to ideology generally does not allow for the development of sustainable strategies aimed at meeting real-world problems.

    Scotland has authentic integrity and huge latent potential.

  98. Jockanese Wind Talker

    I know what you’re saying @ Brian Powell says at 10:05 am

    “Tricky for Ruth!” and “K Dugdale spent 3 days in the US campaigning for Hilary Clinton.”

    How much airtime and column inches were or are devoted to such instances by the current and former Miss UKOK??

    Only a tiny fractional % of the airtime and column inches devoted to SNPBaaad.

    Us anoraks on Wings know that all the Unionist MSPs are hypocrites and some are just down right nasty.

    The wider population doesn’t though and it is this bias by omission which needs to be challenged publicly.

  99. Stoker

    Robert Peffers wrote:

    “The headline claims that by joining the scouts or guides will give the recruit better mental health.”

    “This illustrates the sheer lack of investigative skills of the BBC, self styled, journalists and more so of their headline writers.”

    Yes, Robert, and just to support your justified attack on the BBC i will add the following: Thomas Hamilton (Dunblane monster) was involved with the Scout movement at one point in his life.

    There are numerous other examples of “monsters” throughout history who were all involved in various Scout movements.

    Not like the BBC to get it wrong, eh!

  100. CameronB Brodie

    Middle-class Scots might be comfortable enough to be satisfied with the status-quo but they lack inalienable human rights. They might not see that as a problem but they are merely burring their heads in the sand. Human rights are vital to ensuring we live under the rule-of-law and to ensure we have access to economic, social, cultural and political involvement.

    Look at how far Britain has moved in the last 40 years. Can these Scots be confident about the future liberties of their children and grandchildren, without the security provided by human rights?

  101. Stoker

    And look who said this:

    “The Boy Scouts motto is the right one. Make sure you are physically and mentally prepared before you set out and pack the appropriate gear for what you plan to do.”

    Norwegian mass killer Anders Breivik.

  102. Meg merrilees

    Latest news on EBC
    Theresa May promises a ‘golden era’ in UK-Chinese relations.

    What a coincidence that shortly after a rumour circulating that Scoltand has lost a huge deal with China (although China is denying it is cancelled), the UK government is negotiating £Billions of deal with China.

    I smell a smell!

    Could one of the terms of any UK deal be that China only negotiates and deals with the UK???

    They realise terms with the USA may have changed overnight.
    China doesn’t want to lose Nepal so would sympathise re England ‘losing’ Scotland?


    Rees-Mogg throwing in his 3d worth on World at One. Politicians ought ‘to have their feet held to the fire’ . Shared values! The triumph of optimism!

    Bit like marriage really…” the triumph of optimism over experience!”

  103. K1

    ‘Whether your views are left, left of centre, centrist, centre right or right, making your case on independence based upon your own preference amongst those of like minded leanings seems a more commonsense approach than attempting to convert or denigrate those with whom you share one common ideal.’

    Nailed it Macart.


  104. Liz g

    David Arnott @ 7.
    Glad you have learned to post with a better tone.
    I asked a few questions of the back of your other post and you haven’t answered.
    I was not aggressive to you but only used ” completely Dry “eyed “sarcasm.
    Which considering the confrontational tone you took about young woman I make no apology for.
    I never let language like that go on unchallenged around me.

    You seem to be a quick learner though,
    and have voiced your concerns in a way that doesn’t throw a road block in front of any discussion.

    While I do agree most of these conversions are moot till after Indy,we can surely explore some of them?

    You see David I don’t identity as right or left anything,any more than you do with Nazi ideology (I took you as being sarcastic), .
    I would self identify as a paid up member of the awkward squad when it comes to claims the Politicians & Media make.
    I will try to illustrate what I mean by a less controversial “I hope” example.
    So please indulge me.

    The Politicians & Media have done quite a job of convincing us to pick up Dog shit.
    This was all based on the assertion that shit from dog’s who haven’t been wormed could cause blindness in children.
    Soooo that generates two questions.

    Where is that blind child,one, just one, and I am convinced?
    Who is worming and picking up after the Foxes who carry the same parasite?

    Answers there came none.
    Also interestingly enough neither have any convictions for not paying the fine if issued with one.

    What did happen though is a huge wages bill for enforcement officers and their equipment,all tax pay’er funded.
    The fencing of play areas with cattle grids all tax pay’er funded.
    Waste bins all tax pay’er funded
    Poo bags delivered to various council outlets all tax pay’er funded.

    The pet and vet industry have a great line in waste disposal products.

    All this generated on some academic report or other,now I am not claiming that the science is wrong,nor am I claming that dog owners shouldn’t clean up,but rather that the arguments that this is such a huge problem aren’t convincing.

    What I am say is that claims are made based on flimsy evedienc an before we know it people are accepting them as fact and allowing the government to act.
    Which eventually results in a fair few people inserting the caveat that of course we don’t deny there’s a problem into the discourse.

    I don’t know about you but I was around when Thatcher made young single mum’s public enemy no 1.
    Think about it David the whole of society hostile to a young mum,that turned my stomach then and still does.
    All the more so because I never have gotten an answer to the questions I asked you,and I have been asking them for a lot of years now.
    How big a problem is this really?
    Why are women in countries with no benefit system having more kids,even when they aren’t teenagers anymore and there lives are more at risk,but still they have them.
    Does that tell us that maybe the urge to reproduce is not only a powerful one but that it has very little to do with the tax pay’er?

    Only because you shared your personal experiences to illustrate part of your statements,let me share mine.
    I was married to the father of my children,before I had them.
    We were a working family.
    All my children are over 21 and all educated and in employment.
    I am not yet a grandmother.
    So you see I say what I do only because I have thought about it not because it’s personal.

  105. David Arnott

    Almost done.

    Guys have a look at this – since I suggested that its wrong for young women to be given money purely for being stupid/selfish enough to have multiple kids with no prospect of giving them a future themselves i have had multiple references of me be happy with ‘drowned refugee children’.

    It takes a sick and hysterical mind to draw that conclusion, yet it is not uncommon among leftist circles and groups, and just like what happened with trump and brexit will only push people in disgust further to the right.

    Thanks to the less ridiculous commentators though, maybe you will have enough influence for this forum not to fall into utter hysterics at the first sign of an opposing viewpoint 😀

  106. Grouse Beater

    Arnott: “since I suggested its wrong for young women to be given money for being stupid/selfish enough to have multiple kids with no prospect of giving them a future”

    Putting aside the self-serving vanity of your remarks, by what yardstick do you judge young woman who have more than two children are unable to provide their children with a future?

    In what way is it “wrong” morally or physically?

    Moreover, by what appointed authority do you feel you have the right to withhold state taxes to stop women having children you assume they might be unable to look after?

  107. Jockanese Wind Talker

    “Almost done” says @ David Arnott at 2:38 pm

    Three questions for you David

    1. Almost done what David?


    Next Two Questions for you are simple yes/no.

    2. Should Scotland be an Independent Country?

    3. Should arguing Party Politics between the ‘broad chuirch’ of Independence supporters be considered secondary to the primary goal of Scotland becoming an Independent Country and argued during the first GE campaign of that iScotland?

  108. Vronsky

    The Nightmare Scenario:


  109. Liz g

    David Arnott @ 2.38
    Is there no part of you that wonder’s if you are being mislead and manipulated into how you view young people in general and young woman in particular?
    You self identify as a tax pay’er are you not curious as to how the government convinces you about any and all tax issues especially how they are presented and prioritised?
    Do you not agree that we either have a Welfare state or we don’t?

  110. Jockanese Wind Talker

    Question #4 for you @ David Arnott

    Does your Tax Code have a S at the start of it?

  111. Liz g

    Aye and question #5
    Dose a Glasgow City Council Enforcement Officer cost the Tax pay’er more per year than a single mum.

    NB not picking on the officers….one of my lot was one for a while….that’s why I can speak of them.

  112. CameronB Brodie

    David Arnott
    You do appreciate what a survival strategy is? Different circumstances require different strategies. Not everyone has confidence, aptitude and opportunity.

    If it wasn’t for casino banking, imperial wars and ingrained nepotism and corruption, Britain might be able to provide opportunity for all.

    Trickle-down is a myth.

  113. Jockanese Wind Talker

    For once I can’t agree with you there CameronB Brodie says at 3:49 pm.

    “Trickle-down is a myth.”

    The trickle-down of sh*te from the the establishment BBC/MSM/Daily Heil etc. seems to be getting through to their target demographic fine.


  114. Robert J. Sutherland

    David Arnott,

    Let’s assume that you are a genuine supporter of Scottish independence and have a right-of-centre viewpoint. You are particularly concerned about benefit fraud. Fair enough. Who would disagree? Who actually wants freeloaders to take advantage of lax handouts? So your recent tangential excursion into that issue is targeting a straw man, and one moreover that has nothing whatever to do with Scottish independence.

    It’s no more or less likely to happen in an independent Scotland than otherwise, because lots of people (=taxpayers) would be up in arms if it ever did, and not just you.

    Please, you may be venting steam about a personally-sensitive issue, but this is the typical distraction politics beloved of the rightwing tabloid media. Find someone to scapegoat so others who might have good reason to feel disadvantaged can be suckered by some slight gratuitous sense of empowerment instead. Which merely raises suspicion about your motives in raising Cain about it here.

    Let’s get back to basics, David. The facts are not inherently party political, even though politicians too often distort them for their own selfish interests. Here’s the bottom line. Can you not agree that as a citizen of a sovereign Scotland you would have far more real control over the issues you care about than being a mere unbidden colonial in a Greater England? Is that not the primary goal?

    Until that is changed, the rest can afford to wait.

  115. CameronB Brodie

    Jockanese Wind Talker
    We’re certainly appear to be in the middle of a 21st century neo-colonial psywar. God bless the Queen though.

  116. CameronB Brodie

    Robert J. Sutherland
    Also, the cost of benefit fraud is minuscule in to comparison corporation tax avoidance, for example.

    It is up to us to stop the slave-economy that is being created around us. Strategies based of ideology, such as the British state, are unlikely to provide sustainable solutions.

  117. CameronB Brodie

    The thing that make ideology a poor starting-point for the planning of development strategies, is that it does not require a basis in reality and it responds poorly to changes in real-world circumstances e.g the British state.

    Not so rusty now, Edinburgh. 🙂

  118. CameronB Brodie

    If Scotland wants a sustainable future, the British state needs to be planned out of Scotland’s environment. Independence first, then an approach that retains what is good and improves where necessary.

  119. CameronB Brodie

    Some contemporary thought on approaches to development.

    Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international cooperation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

    The process is not the same thing as the outcome of the process, although in the right to development both the process and the outcome of the process are human rights. It is possible for individuals to realize several rights separately, such as the right to food, the right to education or the right to housing. It is also possible that these rights are realized separately in full accordance with human rights standards, with transparency and accountability, in a participatory and non-discriminatory manner, and even with equity and justice. But even then, the right to development may not be realized as a process of development if the interrelationships between the different rights are not fully taken into account.

    … the United Nations Development Program has correctly conceived of development in terms of “human development”. It has in turn viewed the concept of human development itself as denoting the creation of “an environment in which people can develop their full potential and lead productive, creative lives in accord with their needs and interests.”If this is what development means or ought to mean in our time, then the RTD should in turn mean the right to that kind of development; the right to the creation of the stated type of environment…. this can be viewed as encompassing three main aspects: the right to the means of creating that environment, the right to a process of creating that environment, and the right to the benefits that flow from the creation of such an environment.

    Affirming the right to development of individuals and peoples as the right to an enabling environment for development that is ‘equitable, sustainable, participatory and in accordance with the full range of human rights and fundamental freedoms,’ Flavia Piovesan has noted that such a development-enabling environment must be free from structural and unfair obstacles to development domestically as well as globally.

    Frequently Asked Questions on the Right to Development

    According to the UNHCHR, the rights-based approach to sustainable development includes the following elements:

    # Linkages to rights in all systems
    # Accountability of decision-making bodies to those entitled to rights
    # Empowerment of the recipients of development programmes (over “charity” responses)
    # Participation from all sectors of the public
    # Non-discrimination and attention to vulnerable groups

  120. Andrew Mclean

    David A,
    You really do have a peculiar interest in young women, especially poor young women who have children, especially with multiple partners? I wonder why that is David, perhaps Heedtracker could fit you in for a consultation? It’s a strange fascinating insight into your life David, one I am afraid I cannot continue, you see, and don’t take this too hard, but you have offered nothing to the discussion except to convince the vast majority that you are one strange guy. In any case and
    I may be wrong but I thought the benefits system cut off after two? If that’s the case are you happy now?
    But all must be fine in the world of wings as reading the posts we are simultaneously an echo chamber and a bunch of argumentative leftists who can’t agree on anything.

  121. K1

    ‘we are simultaneously an echo chamber and a bunch of argumentative leftists humans who can’t agree on anything.’

    You’re welcome 🙂

  122. Independence Live

    @David Arnott

    after covering and livestreaming many events and listening to many people who are directly or indirectly affected by benefits reading your ignorant comments I find really distressing. Dont get ill David and hope you never get in an accident, the benefits system is not a nice place to be. Hard to believe you are pro-Indy as the current policies coming out of Westminster are reflective of you posting.

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