The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland

Playing tricks on memory

Posted on May 30, 2015 by

In its kneejerk “SNP BAD” reaction to the Alistair Carmichael affair, the Unionist establishment – politicians and media alike – has furiously tried to divert attention from Carmichael’s smear and attempted cover-up by harking back to an incident in 2012, when the press gave vast amounts of coverage to a claim that Alex Salmond had “lied” about legal advice regarding an independent Scotland’s EU membership.


Everyone and their dog has trotted out the allegation again in the past week, right across the Unionist political spectrum – “Steerpike” in the Spectator did it, Alex Johnstone of the Scottish Conservatives did it, Tavish Scott of the Scottish Lib Dems did it, Michael White in the Guardian did it, Toby Young in the Spectator (again) did it, thirsty Labour peer George Foulkes did it, Telegraph columnist Iain Martin did it, failed Lib Dem anti-Salmond candidate Christine Jardine did it, and countless numbers of shrill Scottish Labour activists and party officials did it.

And all of them are counting on the Scottish public not remembering the truth.

The most obviously pertinent fact about the issue is that Salmond referred himself to an independent inquiry panel over the matter and was cleared of any wrongdoing – an adjudication that the Unionist parties and media took with their customary bad grace, with most of the newspapers amplifying a couple of mild criticisms in the report into their headlines, but which nonetheless found the then-First Minister innocent.

The inquiry’s findings had come as no surprise to anyone who’d actually looked into the incident for 30 seconds with a fair mind. We detailed the events in a post at the time. The “infamous” exchange in a TV interview with Andrew Neil went like this:

NEIL: Have you sought advice from your own Scottish law officers in this matter?

SALMOND: We have, yes, in terms of the debate.

NEIL: And what do they say?

SALMOND: You can read that in the documents that we’ve put forward, which argue the position that we’d be successor states.

(All emphasis ours. Those lines from 42s in the video below.)

Unionist accusers tend to quote only the first two lines, leaving out the third and fourth ones which provide the crucial context: Salmond referred, explicitly and absolutely truthfully, to advice which the Scottish Government had already published, and whose existence was therefore a matter of record and beyond dispute.

Whenever asked if there was further, unpublished, advice, he declined to answer – in keeping with both UK and Scottish Government standard policy of keeping both the existence (or not) and detail of such advice confidential. It’s a straightforward matter of visible, empirical fact that he told Andrew Neil no lies whatsoever.

When the Information Commissioner then decided to force the Scottish Government to reveal whether such advice did exist in this particular case – something which had never been confirmed or denied, otherwise there would have been no request for the Commissioner to adjudicate on – it found that nothing had been hidden from the Scottish people. Everything Salmond had said had been true.

Unionist politicians and media rely on the assumption that if they all say the same thing, and nobody contradicts them, people will assume it to be the truth. They also depend on their belief that the public doesn’t remember anything that happened more than a week ago. Sites like Wings Over Scotland exist to ensure that the true facts ARE remembered – and, crucially, to link to the evidence proving them.

Alex Salmond submitted himself to impartial judgement and was, correctly, found innocent. The reason he didn’t stand down was that he’d done nothing wrong. The next time he presented himself to the electorate, he was elected on a thumping 14% swing, almost tripling the SNP vote in the process.

Alistair Carmichael was found to be guilty both of breaking the rules and of lying about it, but has as yet suffered no penalty other than a fine he imposed on himself, and stubbornly refuses to let his electorate decide his fate in full possession of the facts.

The two cases are not remotely alike, and anyone telling you otherwise is a liar.

Print Friendly

    2 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

    1. 30 05 15 14:19

      Playing tricks on memory | Speymouth

    2. 30 05 15 15:40

      Playing tricks on memory | Politics Scotland | ...

    170 to “Playing tricks on memory”

    1. It’s great having this one reference point to direct the average Britnat to the truth. When they reply with disparagement that it’s a WoS link you know your job is done! 🙂 Thanks again!

    2. call me dave says:

      Thanks for posting this as,like many others, I have been reading the ‘Salmond lied on EU advice’ which is not true.

      A winger a few threads back gave us chapter and verse but it may have been overlooked.

      It needed to be brought to the fore again and you have done it here. Well done! 🙂

    3. Fiona says:

      Well said, Rev Stu. You are absolutely correct. For me one of the main values of this site is your ability to remember what happened and link to the facts and the evidence. It is true that most of us have short memories, and a united front of lies is hard to resist.

      I am always impressed by your library skills, or whatever you want to call them. I don’t know how you do that, but if you can then surely MSM can: they just don’t.

    4. Dr Jim says:

      Aye but Alex Salmond definitely was thinking something else and concealing his thinks from people and if we shout it even louder folk will definitely go for it

      SNP REALLY REALLY BAD.. that was me shouting

    5. Hamish10 says:

      Yes across the media the same diversionary tactics are being applied. You almost feel a memo has been leaked instructing the Tories and liberal democrats to follow a particular line. The Tories need Carmichael to stay as he could spill the beans as to what Mundell, Cameron etc knew and did and if they kept their mouths shut leading up to the election.

      Maybe the leader of the Tories in Scotland can advise us at the the next FM question time in a spirit of openness?

      The issues being raised by the right wingers has been in the public domain for some time. The voters know this and voted accordingly.
      Carmichael and I am sure other politico’s and the civil service will release ALL correspondence just to show how deep and wide the cover up was to smear the First Minister, SNP and in England Ed Milliband and Labour and keep Carmichael and Cameron in a job.

      The longer this goes on the greater the damage in particular to the sitting liberal democrat MSP’s. If the damage continues they will turn on Carmichael themselves.

    6. Blair paterson says:

      I do not understand why A.S. Does not sue these people and there papers I have been blogging this on and of for months maybe I am missing something but not only would suing expose their lies it would make anyone else think long and hard about telling lies about us ,so until they are sued they will keep on telling their lies because so far they are getting of with it with no comeback

    7. Good work, we needed that.

    8. Croompenstein says:

      Thanks for posting this Stu, they are wheeling this out at every opportunity and not being called out for it. And since you mentioned Michael White I am away to play Michael White’s moustache fu bung with the windows open, might even have a wee dance 🙂

    9. Sandra Riddell says:

      And Andrew Neil brought it up again on Thursday on BBC This Week.

    10. Great, because I was beginning to doubt the facts myself. Carmichael and the other unionists are serial liars who have lied so often that they themselves no longer know what’s true.

    11. Clootie says:

      The English based media is blatanly unionist. They will align on any lie regardless of evidence or basic confirmation checks.

      The good news is that they are of little importance now. We have clear evidence from the GE that they can scare the little englanders but have almost no impact on the Scots. The Scottish based bigots are watching thei circulation go into free fall.

      …as for the BBC!

    12. Grouse Beater says:

      That lie was repeated twice lately to my hearing – once on Brewster’s question time show on radio. Brewster stopped the politician smearing Salmond though he had a hard time doing it. Here’s my take on pundit bigotry:

    13. Marie clark says:

      Thanks Rev. I don’t know how you manage to keep on doing this day in and day out against all this bilge that the MSM and political sorts spew out. Well we all knew that they were liars but Malcolm Bruce confirmed it a few days ago.

      They really have got themselves into a bourach about Carmichael, haven’t they? He’s being quoted as saying that the last five days have been the worst of his life.

      Well Alistair, whose fault is that? Yours dear boy, yours. All you had to do was resign, and if you wished stand again in the by election. Simples, problem solved. You may even have been elected again if your electorate were so minded. Would have been end of. But no, cling to the wreckage as much as you can. You are doing more harm to yourself and your party by this coarse of action. Roll on Holyrood 2016.

      But in the meantime, CYA operation from all the media and only some politico’s, which is interesting in itself. I know how we’ll get round it, ready. Alex Salmond bad, liar. SNP very very very bad. There that should do it.


    14. Robert Burns says:

      They also like to mention the cost of this investigation, as being £20,000. But, who paid these costs and to whom?
      And thanks, Stuart, for all your great investigation work, a great pity that journalists don’t give it a try.

    15. Clootie says:

      Daily Record sales now well under 200k (I wonder how many they give away free)

    16. RogueCoder says:

      Carmichael’s leaking of the memo should be considered treason – and I don’t use that word lightly. That it is not regarded as such by the UK government shows the lengths they are prepared to go to in order to maintain the status quo.

      Despite the fact that the memo was an “official record” of a meeting with a representative of a foreign power, and that it’s leaking dragged said foreign power into a UK general election debate and embarrassed the UK diplomatic service, it’s been treated with the metaphorical shrug now infamously characterised by Carmichael himself: “these things happen”.

      If only Able Seaman William McNeilly’s release – which contained no secret information and was entirely in the interest of the public safety – was being treated with such nonchalance.

      The primary argument put forward by unionists for Carmichael’s continued residence is to draw comparison with Alex’s – admittedly over-spun – representation of EU legal advice. This is akin to comparing armed robbery with getting a parking ticket. It’s absurd, wholly disingenuous, hypocritical and completely without merit.

    17. Betty Craney says:

      I have pointed this lie about AS out on FB all week …even SNP followers have swallowed it .

      I refer them to the link Robert Peffers supplied on here the other day and ask that they share with friends .

    18. Bill Cruickshank says:

      Excellent work as usual Rev. Provides brilliant ammunition for some of the unionist nut jobs on Twitter. Thanks again!

    19. Macart says:

      Well said Rev.

      Some folk have extremely selective memories, but happily the majority don’t, which is why those with selective memories had their arses handed to them only a few weeks ago.

      The big lie only works if people are willing to believe. When the lie is exposed and fought, it quickly crumbles to dust. Those worthies with their brains stuck on spin cycle should take note of recent events and have a wee think about where they go from here.

      In the case of those who were would be establishment politicians, their careers and their system of government are on final notice. As for the traditional media and most especially its commentators? Well they’ve effectively become irrelevant and redundant to a motivated electorate well capable of producing its own media and doing their own homework.

      In both cases those institutions have no one else to blame for their current predicament other than themselves and their own appalling self interested actions. They fully deserve nothing less than our contempt for continuing in their efforts to manipulate perception from positions of supposed authority or public access.

      Karma baby, accept no substitutes.

    20. call me dave says:

      Ditto the Sun.

      I was offered a free ‘Sun’ today in the paper shop while buying the ‘National’ Turned it down!

      Footie in case your not watching on TV. Both finals.

      In fact anything you fancy.

      Murray was excellent this morning in France straight sets win.

    21. heedtracker says:

      Fact wont make any difference to any Britnat unionists sadly.

      They have no shame or decency or honour. Its all so incredibly condescending too, this relentless slander of Salmond in defence of such a corrupt politician like Carmichael. Carmichael was after all a minister of state and it doesn’t stink much higher than that does it Prime Minister Cameron.

      Carmichael says it’s been the worst week of his life. If only they hadn’t used their work phones, the fraudsters would have got away with it.

      How often does “if only” cross the minds of crooks that get nicked.

    22. Valerie says:

      Thanks for this Rev, because that lie is indeed doing the rounds, repeated by unionists, through the froth bursting from their mouths.

      It’s tedious, but then they keep digging, and can’t find any dirt, so they go back to an old bone that’s been chewed to death.

      I suppose it passes some time for them.

    23. Welsh Indyfan says:

      Oh God, Stu, how I wish we had a clone of you who was Welsh. I knew instinctively that Michael White and his ilk were spouting garbage when they trotted this line out, but didn’t have the info at my fingertips to be able to rebut it. Problem now solved. Diolch yn fawr.

    24. Dr Jim says:

      Go into any of the big supermarkets at around 9pm and watch the staff bundling up the unsold papers for returning

      There are a lot of them, and mostly the Red Tops
      I’ve seen stacks a foot thick of Daily Records, The Sun, less of the others because of lower demand for stocking

      Always a lot of The Express though

      Thank goodness for Ad Trader though what a great read

    25. Chic McGregor says:

      oops my last post on the previous thread went out before I saw this.

    26. Brian Powell says:

      There are many tweeters based in London who are apparently, and suddenly, expert on all things Scottish or SNP, but they hate W over S.

    27. Alex says:

      Yes, thank you, Stuart
      Wings and the other stalwarts – from The Dug to Murray – deserve our praise
      I’ve given up on MSM apart from, of course, The National
      And as far as this post goes, it is plain that all the Michael Whites of this world are not interested in recording the facts. ‘We all know it’s what the nats are thinking’; wasn’t that the refrain while he patronised Lesley?
      The media is suffering from a profound and terminal slump
      And it is plain that their selective myopia when it comes to reporting on what is, essentially, a country wishing to run its own affairs, will end up destroying them

    28. Petra says:

      @ Wings ”Everyone and their dog has trotted out the allegation again in the past week, right across the Unionist political spectrum – “Steerpike” in the Spectator did it, Alex Johnstone of the Scottish Conservatives did it, Tavish Scott of the Scottish Lib Dems did it, Michael White in the Guardian did it, Toby Young in the Spectator (again) did it, thirsty Labour peer George Foulkes did it, Telegraph columnist Iain Martin did it, failed Lib Dem anti-Salmond candidate Christine Jardine did it, and countless numbers of shrill Scottish Labour activists and party officials did it. And all of them are counting on the Scottish public not remembering the truth.”

      I can’t understand why Alex doesn’t do something about this.

      Put a stop to it, for once and for all, by suing them for defamation of character.

      It would (may) also send a warning shot across the MSM bow to reconsider any other lies they may be thinking of telling in an attempt to manipulate and brainwash their viewers / readers.

    29. Alastair says:

      Timely and great post Stu.

    30. Sneddon says:

      As a former Freedom of Information Manager I can state that the practice of neither confirming nor denying the existence of legal advice is standard procedure because doing ethier may prejudice the interests of the information holder in addition legal advice is an allowed exemption under FOI legislation from disclosure for the same reasons. So Alex followed the same procedure as the UK gov does. Two faced unionists can’t seem to realise that they are ‘projecting’ their own issues onto the good guys and perhaps they might want to stop using newspapers in lieu of their own brains. Just saying likes.

    31. Effijy says:

      Great work Rev,

      I posted on the last read how the “So called Scottish Daily Mail made a mountain out of a mole hill with their feature of Andrew Neil confirming the Alex Salmond “lied” with regard to seeking EU legal advice.

      I recall that he was proved innocent, but I don’t have skils of the Rev to quote that actual ruling.

      Now with you backing up my memory, I wonder why Alex did not stop the show to demand he delivers a full explanation of the facts and of his decreed innocence?

      We really need to put these presenters feet back in their mouth
      on such occasions, and demand that they listen to the reality of the situation. If the interviewer or panel member wants to
      contest the result of the inquiry, then I suggest that they go to court to prove who is right. Substantial damages can be paid out by the BBC, Daily Mail, or parasite politicians for deliberately

    32. call me dave says:

      Kezia cereal Brek:
      The Lothians MSP – the Scottish party’s deputy leader – will set out her position in a keynote speech to the Scottish Fabians later this afternoon, in which she will also argue that Scottish Labour has to be seen as a party with ideas for the future rather than stuck in the past.

      The address comes days after it emerged that citizens from most European Union countries living in the UK will be barred from voting in the referendum on membership of the EU, promised by Prime Minister David Cameron.

      The franchise for referendum, expected by the end of 2017, will be based on that for a general election – meaning Irish, Maltese and Cypriots resident in the UK will get a vote, but other EU citizens will not.

      Ms Dugdale will tell the audience she will be campaigning to stay in Europe and keep the “strong ties” with the UK’s neighbours.

      She will say that referendums should be conducted “as inclusively and democratically as possible” and will argue that 16 and 17-year-olds should be able to vote in the EU referendum, as they did in the Scottish independence ballot.

      But she will tell the audience: “I would go further. When we had our referendum in September, just under 90,000 EU nationals registered to take part and it was the better for it.

      “Put simply, I believe EU nationals who have chosen to live their life here, and make the UK their home, should have the right to vote in a referendum on the future of the country.

      “EU nationals make important contributions to our communities, and to our economy.
      Where’s Murphy? Oh he’s yesterdays man.

    33. Luigi says:

      O/T (well, sort of)

      If the legal case (and appeal?) against Carmichael is unsuccessful, perhaps the people of Orkney and Shetland should go ahead with an unofficial petition against him anyway. It probably wouldn’t shame him into resigning, but it would sure as hell keep that harsh spotlight on him for a few more weeks.

      Can you imagine if several thousand people in Orkney and Shetland signed an unofficial petition against him?

    34. bjsalba says:

      Where is Barosso now?

      He was the MSMs favourite guy on the EU position on Scotland. He spoke on Scotland because Cameron offered to back him for the top Nato job. He didn’t get it (went to a non-nuclear Norwegian}.

      BBC still interviews him as if he was a somebody(11th May 2015). Nobody else does as far as I can see.

    35. Stone_Truth says:

      Has anyone seen or heard the evidence gathered by Gordon Bowden regarding the massive fraud’s committed by those holding the highest offices in the land, lords, ministers and the monarchy? He has evidence documenting massive corruption by the elite stealing billions from the public and asset stripping the country. If I remember correctly it’s nearly a Trillion pounds stolen through around 250,000 shell companies. Wonder when we’ll see that in the MSM?

    36. Famous15 says:

      The buggers are like mercuy .you no sooner pin one lying story,where they lie about the SNP,than another one springs up.

      Cannot remember which radio programme this morning but dontcha know Ms Sturgeon was lying when she “repeatedly” said during the referendum debate that there would not be another referendum for a generation. Theeven implied she lied about the meaning of the word “generation”

      Like the Bolsover buttock they will make it up anyway but worth nailing the obvious ones!

    37. yesindyref2 says:

      Good stuff Rev. Yes, the Unionists keep trying this one, to conflate their alleged incident with one that’s beyond doubt. I don’t think it’ll work, except in their own fevered minds.

      I was in the Lakes last week, and a couple of times Carmichael came up. They both thought Carmichael should go, so the news is out in England as well as Scotland. Strangely enough they’re in one of the few remaining LibDem constituencies, Farron’s.

      They also commented on the SNP thing, that the English hate the SNP but that they think they have every right to be MPs. I suspect when they say the English hate the SNP they’re quoting media, and I wonder again if the media actually represent general opinion in England, or media commentators own angry bigoted version of the truth. Perhaps media has completely lost touch with its readership (not WOS of course!!!).

    38. Lollysmum says:

      Anyone know if IndyLive is livestreaming at Dungavel today? Can’t find anything on their website but Kevin said at end of Lesley Riddoch livestream that they planned to.

    39. Dr Jim says:

      We are the BBC therefore correct
      We are journalists therefore correct
      We are newspapers therefore correct

      We are England, sorry, eh UK, sorry, eh Britain, as well as Scotland, eh and we are many therefore correct in all things

      So stop this answering back you vile creatures and learn who your betters are for God’s sake
      Listen to your stupid accents you can’t even speak English
      Your MPs eat crisps and keep turning up in the House of Commons to debates

      Just who do you “Orrible Oiks” think you are
      You’re novelty will soon blow over

    40. heedtracker says:

      Not only but also teamGB Cybernat botherer of the week last week Mike White of rancid THE Graun, says being a liar is the teamGB way, ergo what’s the problem? So save Alistair Carmichael’s big fat mottled arse from re-election. It wouldn’t be British.

      Maybe we overestimate our baiters

      2. There again, there were also practical reasons that have helped keep me loyal to my moustache. I have a tiny blemish on the upper-right quartile that cuts easily when razored.

      I also have a small mouth, so my new moustache helped hold my face up and make me look more grown-up than I felt in the rough world of the London Evening Standard’s newsroom.”


    41. yesindyref2 says:

      I think traditional media has become too cost-cutting and incestuous. Instead of getting out there and talking to normal people, they read each others articles, believe them, and reprint versions of their own. Or just take verbatim the press releases of their favourit party pundits. Penny-wise, pound foolish. The dumbing down of trad media in the UK, how sad – or is it?

    42. Jim Lynch says:

      It was always a matter of wonder to me that if there had been a smidgeon of truth in these allegations, then Andrew Neil, a vociferous opponent of the SNP in general and Alex Salmond in particular, woul dhave been jumping up and down with joy. To my recollection he just ignored the issue, not having established a case to answer. Also, this issue was first raised by Labour MSP Paul Martin some months after the episode occurred – sice no one else had noticed it. Conflation is a favourite Unionist trick.

    43. Grizzle McPuss says:

      I admire how those in certain journalistic circles and the usual political suspects attempt to measure everyone else off their own ‘yard-stick’; shame that it’s more often than not mis-calibrated and shitty at the handled end.

      One of the things that the newly engaged Scottish electorate are adept at is showing just how perceptive they are. But still, there remains an almost a stubborn, nay arrogant perception that some of us aren’t clever enough to understand the people wot use dem big wurds.

      Well here’s the thing, folks can easily and quickly separate the cheat from the waff.

      Mr Salmond is one of the most upfront and honourable politicians of the Scottish political enlightenment. His entire political stance is “here I am, approach me, engage me…debate”. This is the politician so assured in his beliefs that he can practically forward himself into any debate unscripted.

      He for sure, unlike many of his contemporaries, is not so daft as to present himself up to any scrutiny where his footing is near the cliff edge.

      Not many other politicians have the courage of their own convictions; theirs is a manufactured approach based around approved political party PR speak. And when the party line is flawed, well then, reflect back over the past 6 months in Unionist politics as many an individual has been found stuttering.

      But the message goes out to those lackeys that would try to defend Carmichael with the type of whatabootery example raised by Stu; try again, but just for once…do your homework.

    44. crazycat says:

      @ yesindyref2

      The “dumbing down of the trad media in the UK” was well documented in 2008 by Nick Davies in Flat Earth News:

      They do indeed all repeat the same press releases and wire news from Reuters and others; genuine investigative journalism is expensive, slow, and therefore rare.

    45. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      Another thing to remember is that Salmond acepted full responsibility for the first Indyref result and stood down as leader.

      Contrast that with the Liar Dems ‘scottish’ leader Willie Rennie who presided over the most humiliating and unequivocal hammering from the scottish voter a few weeks ago yet he still hasn’t stood down or accepted responsibilty for it.

      For that matter Rennie STILL hasn’t apologised for his pivotal role in the lib dem dirty tricks scandal or answered questions about it.

      With the vile smearing liars like Carmichael and Rennie,to replace the liar Clegg as the face of their party from now on, the Liar Dems are quite obviously in for another complete pasting in 2016.

      One they completely deserve as Clegg’s nauseating spinners, along with all the other westminster establishment bigots, are too corrupt and out of touch to do anything other than scream “SNP Bad!” over and over again

    46. Lollysmum says:

      Call me Dave at 2.43pm

      Well now we know that Kezia watched BBC Question Time this week when Lesley Riddoch made that same comment:

      “EU nationals who have chosen to live their life here, and make the UK their home, should have the right to vote in a referendum”

      This was the most tweeted comment (according to Dimblebumble) during & after the programme. Hope you thanked Lesley profusely for that assistance with your manifesto Kezia. It’s only common courtesy you know 🙂

    47. yesindyref2 says:

      The Carmichael petition through the Court of Sessions to an election court doesn’t need to be successful or win. The case will attract a lot of publicity, it will be a high profile case and the QC is used to high profile cases.

      The job will be done, win or lose. The UK public will be aware that a politician has lied, has admitted to lying, has even been proven to have lied, but yet (if a lose), that isn’t enough in the UK democratic system for politicians to be removed from office.

      It will leave a legacy of mistrust of UK politicians, even more than now.

    48. Jim Lynch says:

      I can recall that during the Dunfermline by election won by Willie Rennie, he was making a great issue of abolishing the tolls on the Forth Road Bridge. At the same time the Scottish Transport Minister, Liberal MSP Tavish Scott was formally opening new toll booths on the Forth Bridge.
      No conflict there , and I see Mr Scott is now misquoting the Alex Salmond/Andrew Neil episode. To my recollection this was not even noticed at the time but brandished about by Labour MSP Paul Martin some months thereafter, asource of great surprise that Andrew Neil had missed such an open goal

    49. thomaspotter2014 says:

      yesindyref2 says

      It’s not dumbing down or low on resources


      These imposters are not journalists-they are deep state led accolytes who put out whatever they are required to do on request from their betters- a bunch of bootlicking fraudsters who’s only interest is the perpetuation of self and profit

      I find the whole spectacle beyond Orwellian

      This is what Scotland is up against

      Apathetic sham that is getting messier by the minute

    50. Capella says:

      @ Stan McConnell
      Thanks for the link to GA Ponsonby’s article on this issue. He treats this with cunstomary detail. I have his book “London Calling: How the BBC Stole the Referendum” and it makes for grim reading. Not for people with anger management problems or high blood pressure!

    51. Pam McMahon says:

      yesindyref2@3.13 pm.

      This is one of the biggest scandals of the whole scandalous affair, that the electorate has no means of removing an MP they no longer trust than to pay out for a judicial process, while still paying the salary and expenses of the MP in question.

      The Recall Act has never been brought into force and, while the Westminster turkeys reluctantly voted for Xmas, we are the ones who have to switch the oven on, and get this bill enacted.

    52. Democracy Reborn says:

      “It has been the practice of successive British governments never to comment on whether we have had advice from the Law Officers, and not to publish such advice.”

      (David Lidington MP, UK Minister for Europe, 27/6/13, giving evidence to the Scottish Parliament Europe and External Affairs Committee)

      The UK government did, of course, publish the opinion they obtained from Professors Crawford and Boyle in February 2013. For those who are still wedded to the notion that we are an equal partner in a glorious multi-nation Union, it’s worth reminiscing what that opinion said:-

      1. Scotland ceased to exist in 1707 under international law
      2. We became part of greater England
      3. The rUK therefore gets everything should Scotland vote for independence; we get nothing

      So the inquiry found wee Eck guilty, at most, of a muddled and potentially misleading answer in a single interview with Andrew Neil? Well, bugger me. Such a heinous crime was commited routinely by Jo-La during her tenure as branch office manager (who can forget the famous car-crash interview with Gordon Brewer over SLAB’s devo proposals? Or Andrew Neil shredding Douglas Alexander over VAT?).

    53. yesindyref2 says:

      Looks like an interesting book.

      That was the thing about the referendum, why it needed a near 3 year campaign, and why that couldn’t change direction and had to keep the “happy happy” line. For decades Scotland has been exposed to “falsehood, distortion and propaganda”, running the line (I never used in postings) “too wee, too poor, too stupid”.

      In 3 years much of that was overcome and minds opened, but there’s still a good bit left to undo. But I think the main strategy has been to let media discredit itself which it’s been only too glad to do. That’d be why, I guess, the likes of Salmond counters it fairly midlly but doesn’t take action. Let the People see for themselves and come to their / our, own conclusions.

      Once that instinctive and engrained trust of traditional media has completely disappeared, then it’s open season on Indy Ref 2. May the best YES side win!

    54. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, I guess that’s a more extreme and forceful version of what I said. I like it!

    55. gus1940 says:

      If the 56 keep appearing en masse in the chamber how long will it be till they are accused of neglecting committee work so as to appear on TV.

      Re ‘The People v Carmichael’ is it the case that now that the case has been lodged witnesses will be called to testify or can it just be thrown out without any testimony?

      If witnesses are going to be called I look forward to hearing from Carmichael and his Spad, Fluffy, the civil servants involved and those higher up the tree all the way up to possibly calling Cameron.

      Keep on clapping folk and see what they do about it.

    56. heedtracker says:

      Another creepy example of how hard core Britnat unionism makes presumably sane Dr’s say the oddest stuff and SNP bad. is never not in a BBC debate audience shouting “its a disgrace” at anyone SNP but this a typical cyberBritnat in action monstering WoS.

      Dr Scott says WoS is lying about Scotland Bill’s vetos, and he explains that last weeks THE VOW Scotland bill actually contains no veto whatsoever.

      Dr Scott says that “consult” in the bill isn’t a veto, therefore WoS is bad. Its just very weird that Dr Scott completely leaves out the bits of the bill that state clearly in clauses following their consult bits-

      “Scottish Ministers may not exercise the function of making regulations… Unless the Secretary of State has given his/her agreement”

      Dr Scott skips over that non veto veto clause but farts out one more UKOK lie for luck-

      “Does the Scotland Bill fully encompass The Vow? I don’t know, but the Law Society of Scotland says it does. ”

      THE VOW was Devo Max. Last September Gordon Brown said vote NO for a Federal UK, not the pointless tax raising farce of a Bill last week but Scottish Home Rule, then it was Devo Max Plus. It must have been true as it was in the Record and everyone signed it, Cameron, Milliband, Clegg.

      Britnat unionists and facts?

      Dr Scott’s not a doctor.

    57. G H Graham says:

      I recall a period of quiet reflection, immediately after the referendum last year, during which it must have crossed many other minds too, that politically, nothing more interesting or remarkable could possibly happen.

      I was wrong.

      Since September, we have witnessed …

      1. Jim Murphy’s ascendancy to “Saviour of the Union”

      2. The annihilation of Labour, especially in Scotland

      3. Alistair Carmichael MP, blatantly lying on the telly

      4. Michael White’s aggressively truncated moustache derived from nothing but a steady hand & basic trigonometry

      5. Members clapping in the House of Commons

      6. Jackie Baillie talking shite

      Only the last one was probable or predictable.

    58. thomaspotter2014 says:

      Better Together fraudsters didn’t dissolve after the referendum-they strengthened,

      Does anyone here really believe that the memo leak, ie Frenchgate,wasn’t widely known throughout the whole stinking structure that is Cameron,Osbourne,Millibands,Balls,Murphy,Carmichael,Rennie,Davidson,99% MSM,The Lords,etc,etc,etc too many to list!

    59. Chic McGregor says:

      As I pointed out a couple of threads back, the keyword is ‘debate’.

      That word, just on its own, means that he was referring to advice of a still contentious, as yet unsettled, nature and NOT to advice of a definitive or final nature.

    60. thomaspotter2014 says:

      This isn’t disinformation this is preposterous!

      Been reading Ponsonby’s How the BBC stole the referendum,

      Jesus Christ! this is psyops war

      Time for Scotland and her people to steal the referendum back

      Carmichael is the first small cog in the machine,

      Him first then the next and the next to clear out the whole stinking nest

    61. Chic McGregor says:

      let me add in what should have been there:

      That word, just on its own, means that he was referring to advice on matters of a still contentious, as yet unsettled, nature and NOT to advice of on matters of a definitive or final nature.

    62. gus1940 says:

      I look forward to the first session of Scottish Questions and the first sitting of the new Scottish Affairs Committee which will hopefully be graced by the appearance of visiting guest stars Carmichael,Roddin and Fluffy – they will do for starters then we can climb further up the political tree.

    63. Chitterinlicht says:

      This is article shows how much we still need Wings holding up the facts right in the noses of MSM.

      I cannot believe some of the guff and defense of guff many MSM journalist are spouting right now.

      Thank god for Wings and others holding the line.

      Best tenner I have ever spent

    64. gus1940 says:

      I am surprised that we haven’t heard what David Steele and Charles Kennedy think of this scandal – after all they are both generally considered to be good guys relative to the rest of the LDs.

    65. Rob James says:

      Looks like the unionist parties are preparing their election manifestos for Holyrood 2016…..SNP Bad!!!

    66. Clootie says:

      …watching the Scottish cup final as a “neutral”. However the Falkirk union jack at the the half way line has switched me to a ICT supporter.

    67. thomaspotter2014 says:

      gus1940 4,04

      We’re gonna need climbing gear!

    68. Dr Jim says:


      I’m afraid the folk of England do dislike us in the main and then it gets worse after that
      But, I hasten to add, they know no better nor would they care if they did
      No unfortunately because of their government, their media, and the propagation of bile it has been this way for a very long time
      How do you rob someone so easily for years unless you subjugate them so much they become apathetic to it

      We’re fighting back now and they can’t stomach it

      How does it come to be that the people in England end up voting for the party they dislike least in order to dislike the Scots more

      To the English SNP means Nazis, Fascists, Jackboots, Marauding hordes of mad people stealing their money
      Where did that come from, who put that in their heads
      But it’s there

      Thing is some folk say win the English over convince them
      make them see sense
      That’s just weak kneed PISH half my family are from Wolverhampton where my mum was born and raised till marriage and let me tell you they believe every word of the drivel and will not have their mind changed by me

      They just think I’ve been brainwashed by that woman Sturgeon even though my membership of the SNP kinda pre-dates our First Ministers reign by some considerable time
      But as explained previously some of them worry for my Health because things are so bad here some about my sanity and some about the gangs of thugs who roam the streets waving flags and terrorising the English folk who live here as they are afraid to go out

      Well that’s what my relatives think

      Answers on a postcard for what anybody else’s Rellys think

    69. arthur thomson says:

      So the unionist parties – the three tory parties – are bent on using further deceit to defend one of their own even though he has admitted to his corruption. They work on the principle, one of the few they adhere to, that the end justifies the means. It doesn’t matter to them that they are smearing an honest and genuine politician.

      But I think the GE result in Scotland reflects a change in the perspective and level of understanding of the Scottish electorate. The SNP, by design or by chance, have adopted exactly the right policy of allowing the unionist parties to expose their lack of integrity.

    70. Rob James says:

      Lollysmum @ 3:13pm

      Perhaps I’m getting a bit greedy now, but is there any chance of citing Dippity Dugdale for plagiarism?

    71. YESGUY says:

      Good stuff Stu.

      This is the main reason WOS gets attacked by the MSM. You show us the facts , backed by evidence and we can see through the spin and lies with ease.

      Thank you again Stu. They must think we button up the back.

    72. Capella says:

      Listened to Shereen this morning for any update on the Carmichael issue. (I know). There was a brief chat towards the end at 1 hr 19 mins 45 secs where everyone agreed that the court case would go nowhere, that there should not be a witch hunt, and so on.

      Then Robert Dawson-Scott, STV Head of Customer Engagement, had oviously done his homework and watched the online video of Carmichael as SoS at the Holyrood Committee.

      RDS: I will say he looked thuggish,boorish, sullen..
      Shereen: That’s very unfair!
      RDS: He was being very unhelpful..being asked questions about his office briefing foreign governments about the Scottish Referendum and he was just not interested in answering these kind of questions. It was an insight into the way he seemed to think it was acceptable to behave.
      Shereen: We’ll move on. (loud music)

    73. Croompenstein says:

      Apologies if already posted but I wasn’t aware of this disparity in the family of nations and have just signed..

    74. Dougie says:

      At roughly the same time the Uk sought legal advice on Scotlands status if it was to leave ” that Scotland ceased to exist on signature of the union there is no doubt” that the Yes campaign failed to use that a no vote agreed that Scotland was extinct and there fore unpatriotic
      Worried about offending English folk living here 70% of whom voted No
      A no vote was never patriotic as Gordon Brown argued a major mistake by yes

    75. YESGUY says:

      What is happening these days??

      The referendum brought the people out of an apathetic slumber to make even a small effort to find out the facts of what an indpendent Scotland would be like.

      The YES movement took the words from pubs and cafe’s to halls and workplace.

      I never saw such a happy inclusive lot in my life. Everyone had a say , even the nawbags. It opened the publics eyes to politics and gave us first hand the experience of being bombarde with propaganda.

      Those we trusted to give us the facts did the opposite. Scares and smears were so numerous that folk just stopped listeing.

      Scotlands independence would cause the world to fall apart. Aliens would destroy us from space and World leaders like Obama etc implored us to stay in this dis-United kingdom. Because we’re too wee, too por and way too stupid.

      We lost the referendum and the scares continued. The smearing of our FM is one of many incidents , too many to count .

      I have to ask. WHY VOTE NO ????

      What possible reason can be given to allow your country, it’s folk and the future kids to stay shackled to another country who syphons all your wealth to create a garden state in the SE of England for the rich.

      Are you deaf to the anti- Scots rhetoric? Change “jock” or “sweaties” to muslim or black and the world screams blue murder. But they say nothing about the disgraceful and blatant attempt to deny the Scots truth and fairness.

      Why is gods name are we still a part of the biggest swindle of the modern age.

      No one from the EU spoke out about the propaganda over our membership.

      No one commented on the bias and smearing of our democratic right to choose without fear or smear.

      Even now the bile is spewing out from Commentators and MSM alike. We go back in the box and alls better yep ?????

      I don’t think i will ever forgive the No voters. They shame the very name Scots.

      No country anywhere in history has refused it’s independence. Except here.

      And that shames me so much i will never forgive them 🙁

    76. Robert Peffers says:

      @call me dave says: 30 May, 2015 at 1:09 pm:

      “A winger a few threads back gave us chapter and verse but it may have been overlooked.”

      You may be referring to my posts on this matter, Call me Dave. However, I made a different point and posted a couple of links to the Neil/Salmond interview.

      The point I made was that Salmond was NOT asked if he had EU legal advice but as the Rev Stu shows above : –

      “NEIL: Have you sought advice from your own Scottish law officers in this matter?

      He was asked if he had legal advice from his own Scottish Law Officers.

      As Salmond made the reply, “We have, yes, in terms of the debate”.

      He not only gave the correct answer to the question but then told Neil where that information was published in the public domain.

      So anyone accusing Salmond of telling porkies quite obviously cannot read or understand basic English.

      How the hell can asking if he had legal advice from his own Legal team be interpreted by these idiots as being asked if he had advice from the EU?

      Isn’t it amazing so many supposedly highly trained Journalists and government ministers fail to be able to understand English? I listened to that interview live and there was no mention of EU legal advice.

    77. Joemcg says:

      Yesguy-great point. Why did the leaders of yes not attack that proud scots pish? Really annoyed me that.

    78. slackshoe says:

      Always knew this one was balls, but there is a dearth of articles on the web with any sort of proof. Thanks Rev.

    79. K1 says:

      Good catch Capella…Shereen didn’t like that one wee bit…good to see some of the commentariat catching up wi Carmichaels ‘performance’ at the committee he refers to, and noting his ‘sullen’ ‘thuggish’ attitude.

      Ian Brotherhood put that link up a few days ago as I recall…we have to keep pushing this true picture of who this man really is and not have people fall for the ‘poor wee carmichael’s being mob hunted’ bull!

    80. osakisushi says:

      A story doing the rounds in Orkney.

      In 1968, a builder, Ali Kahm, presented his designs for a new headquarters building to the Shah of Iran. It was an important occasion, covered by the media, and his closest competitor was an Israeli architect.

      At the end of his presentation, he nervously bowed deeply to the Shah. As he did so, he let rip a fart of truly biblical proportions. With utter panic, he fled the presentation and withdrew his design but the media were not willing to let him live a quiet life.

      Ultimately, he left the country.

      Many years later he returned discretely. His customary beard was gone and the years had not been kind as he’d lost the excess weight of a prosperous businessman. In the taxi from the airport, he pointed to an impressive series of building, the Eskan Triple Towers which graced the skyline over his beloved Tehran.

      “When was that built?” he asked the taxi driver.

      The man pondered for a few minutes, then answered.
      “I think it was 10 years after Ali Kalm farted.”

      He returned to the airport and flew out on the first available flight, never to return. After changing his family name to ensure he fitted in with his new adoptive country, his children were brought up completely without any knowledge of their fathers disgrace. He warned them, repeatedly, never to bring any shame on their new family name, “Carmichael…”

      Oh, if only it were true.

    81. davidb says:

      @ Gus1940

      None of the committees have been formed yet. The question I wondered was what the other 600 representatives were doing to prevent their attendance. In particular, the Labour Party made an issue of zero hours contracts in the election. A debate is held and only a handful of their members see fit to attend? They really don’t get what has happened and what could happen to them in rUK once other people notice how badly their representatives do their job. They do know that they lost a lot of votes to UKIP and to people staying at home don’t they? That is why they are not the government.

      I don’t expect regular mass attendance by Team56. much of the business of an MP is actually not in the chamber. Much of the legislation debated anyway is going to be on devolved matters so its difficult to justify our presence. But for now, with the exception of Cabinet Ministers, what exactly is it the rest of them find so pressing as to keep them away? 53 new Labour MP’s were elected. I would have thought they had as full or empty a diary as Team56, yet at no time did I observe more than a handful of people on the Labour benches. So where were they?

      And some people think Scotland should have voted for that poor level of representation too?

    82. Born Optimist says:

      I haven’t had time to read all the posts so I thought I would mention, just in case no-one else has, that this issue was covered in even more detail in Ponsonby’s book London Calling : How the BBC stole the Referendum.

      It’s a good read for anyone who needs to be convinced that the BBC never played anywhere near fair. One thing stands out more than anything: on the numerous occasions they got it so wrong they had to amend headlines etc these only appeared too late to influence anyone and not in a format that would qualify as a counterweight to the original broadcast/content on the BBC web site.

    83. Still Positive. says:

      @davidb 6.39.

      Re non-attendance by MPs at debates. I said to my son the other night that there were 182 new MPs elected so you would think party whips would have advised them to attend as observers to get a ‘feel’ of the chamber.

      Seems the SNP really look after their MPs and, according to Mhairi Black, they are really supportive of each other. Well done Team Scotland.

    84. Paula Rose says:

      New MPs are supposed to check out the trough not sit on seats and do their job.

    85. Robert Peffers says:

      @Clootie says: 30 May, 2015 at 1:34 pm:

      “The English based media is blatanly unionist. They will align on any lie regardless of evidence or basic confirmation checks”.

      It’s not just the English media. Am I the only one to notice that, in spite of playing his best Tennis ever, Andy Murray’s great results since he declared for independence are now not getting much air time and little mention in even the sports news.

      It’s almost as if he were a foreign player now … Oh! Wait up! …

    86. Petra says:

      Jim Lynch says ”It was always a matter of wonder to me that if there had been a smidgeon of truth in these allegations, then Andrew Neil, a vociferous opponent of the SNP in general and Alex Salmond in particular, would have been jumping up and down with joy. To my recollection he just ignored the issue, not having established a case to answer. Also, this issue was first raised by Labour MSP Paul Martin some months after the episode occurred – since no one else had noticed it. Conflation is a favourite Unionist trick.”

      Jim, Alex Salmond was interviewed by Andrew Neil last week. Neil questioned Alex about the Carmichael issue and as soon as Alex had answered he then launched into him more or less accusing him of being an out and out liar too re. the EU affair.

      Neil is not jumping up and down with joy but nor is he giving up on this. As I’ve said already I can’t understand why Alex doesn’t take legal action to put a stop to this.

    87. IvMoz says:

      @gus1940 4:21pm

      David Steel a good guy?

      Over many years he refused to take any action against Cyril Smith.

      I hardly think he’d baulk at defending Carmichael.

    88. Terry says:

      O/T and on a lighter note there’s an act on the final of britains got talent tonight. And the name?
      UDI. They’re not Scottish – they actually come from Siberia and just featured on RT news.
      UDI and Britain in the same sentence he he. You couldn’t make it up.

    89. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The significant aspect of the “Alex Salmond lied” diversion is that was instantly in widespead use which means that this was co-ordinated from on high as well.

      Isn’t it about time that some prominent figure was made to publicly retract under threat of legal action

    90. K1 says:

      For those who have mentioned Andrew Neil re stirring the pot wi Alex, here he is on the subject of Carmichaels’s lying, on the 29th May. Here’s the vid: 10 minutes in.

      Tried posting earlier but post vanished into the ether 🙁 (think I left the http on accidentally)

    91. Guilliume says:

      Watched this anticipated performance of Andrew Neil during the week. He doesn’t realise we have cleared them all out from Westminster the democratic purge will continue at Holyrood next year and the following year at the local council elections. Oban meeting today epitomises what’s happening across Scotland, the people are sovereign whether the establishment like it or not.

    92. Robert Peffers says:

      @Clootie says: 30 May, 2015 at 4:30 pm:

      ” … watching the Scottish cup final as a “neutral”. However the Falkirk union jack at the half way line has switched me to a ICT supporter”.

      Then I take it you missed the chanting of, “Wee Arra People”, seems to me there was more than a hint of OO bigots at the National Stadium.

      I must have been around 9 years old when it dawned on me the, “Wee arra people”, were not, as I had believed, a tribe of pygmy native Americans.

    93. Robert Peffers says:

      O/T: Breaking News.

      Katie Hopkins facing no charges after describing Scots as, “little sweaty jocks”, and saying, “sending us Ebola Bombs in the form of sweaty Glaswegians just isn’t cricket”. Another of her tweets said, “Glaswegian ebola patient moved to London Royal Free Hospital. Not so independent when it matters most are we jocksville?”.

      A Police Scotland investigation said it had found no criminality.

    94. Croompenstein says:

      The great thing I love about WoS is the links wingers put on and from those links you find out stuff that you never knew, I’d still love Nana Smith to return, but I found this one which unbeknown to me is Britain’s worst rail disaster why does it take coming to WoS to find out about this, it’s heartbreaking…

    95. Joemcg says:

      Just some balance at the final, someone had a Union Flag in the Inverness end too!

    96. Jim Thomson says:

      O/T – that’s the fundraiser now at 80% !

      Keep going folks, that 60k is within touch distance now.


    97. Valerie says:

      Thanks for that Capella! Shereen a confirmed unionist then?

      Its odd hearing anyone at the BBC talk common sense, so always worth reporting!

    98. Effijy says:

      Just heard this on BBC Englandshire:

      Katie Hopkins will not face any charges over a tweet which described Scottish people as “little sweaty jocks”.
      After news that a Scots nurse was being treated for Ebola, Hopkins wrote: “Sending us Ebola bombs in the form of sweaty Glaswegians just isn’t cricket.”
      Another tweet said: “Glaswegian ebola patient moved to London’s Royal Free Hospital. Not so independent when it matters most are we jocksville?”
      Police Scotland said an investigation had found no criminality.

      I don’t mind being called Scot, as it is obviously an abreviated from of Scottish.

      I have it on good authority that you cannot abbreviate Pakistani
      or you are racist and charges will be brought upon you?

      Cannot Call a German a Gerry-apologies if anyone is offended?

      You cannot call an Hispanic a Spic, again my apologies as I apeal for license here.


      There is nothing that I won’t give to be rid of the vermin that run Westminster’s England.
      The Corrupt Landowners, Bankers, Corporations, TV, Radio, and the Newspaper money grabbing manipulators.

    99. Christian Schmidt says:


      Have you seen the Guardian article on Labour expelling a member for supporting the SNP. Are you aware of any similar moves towards those that have supported the Tories?

    100. Petra says:

      boris says O/T

      Yes it’s dreadful Boris and Westminster has a great deal to answer for, in particular War criminal Tony Blair. Blair who used to fly around in Gaddafis private jet whilst planning to steal Libyas oil.

      I see that he has now stood down as Middle East envoy no doubt to afford himself more time to add to his many millions and multiple properties. This is the man that has destroyed the Labour Party, has created hell for millions abroad and attracted even more terrorists to the UK. Meanwhile he is running around Scot free charging, for example rich Arabs, £150,000 an HOUR to listen to him spouting a load of guff. It just beggars belief.

    101. icyspark says:

      This video interview between Alex Salmond and Andrew Neil is here, with the relevant info highlighted as the video progresses.

    102. The Rough Bounds. says:

      On Radio Scotland this morning (Sat.) I listened to a man called David Larkin (I think he was American) explaining why Scotland could and should lead the way with tackling the FIFA scandal. He mentioned that Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish Government were perfect for the job.

      BBC Scotland commentator (don’t know which particular dickhead it was) immediately pooh poohed the idea. Mr. Larkin came right back at him and told him not to underestimate Scotland, and that we COULD lead the way.

      Wise cracks were then brought out by the BBC Scotland dickhead about how poorly Scotland’s team does in international football.

      When exactly are we going to get rid of those toady arseholes at BBC Scotland?

    103. Fireproofjim says:

      There has been rather a lot about the Quintinshill rail disaster on all the media over the last few weeks including a one hour TV programme, as this is the 100th anniversary.
      It certainly has not been ignored.

    104. Rock says:


      “Police Scotland said an investigation had found no criminality.”

      The Scottish justice system is rotten to the core.

      Let us now start making such comments about the purring queen.

      They will suddenly find a law which makes such comments illegal.

    105. Croompenstein says:

      @Fireproofjim – It certainly has not been ignored

      Sorry fireproof I don’t watch live TV only catch up so must have missed this. I wasn’t having a dig at anyone ignoring it rather that, as Britain’s worst railway disaster, I hadn’t heard about it. It’s just that it was another historical story, which is pertinent to Scotand, that I probably wouldn’t have noticed in my blindness before the referendum campaign.

    106. Grouse Beater says:

      When exactly are we going to get rid of those toady arseholes at BBC Scotland?

      The Scottish cringe. Too wee, too weak … you know the rest.

    107. Marcia says:

      Sunday Herald front page;

    108. Marcia says:


      Here is a like to the programme on Quintenshill;

    109. Robert Peffers says:

      Perhaps if we all started to complain about it, or even punched a few coupons, they would, (after arresting us for assault), conclude that these people are indeed potentially guilty of, “Conduct likely to cause a breach of the peace”.

      If it’s likely or possible that a persons behaviour or presence will result in violence then a breach of the peace may occur. An arrest is usually made to prevent this but can be made to prevent a further breach if one has already occurred.

      Bear in mind though that a breach or possible breach is often a perceived threat and can be open to interpretation.

    110. Harry McAye says:

      Robert Peffers – Not often you get it wrong, but the Falkirk fans were actually singing “We are the STEEPLE”, as in the famous Falkirk steeple that is also featured in their club badge. It is open to misinterpretation and I think that is maybe the point, those scamps!

    111. Iain More says:

      So another day of SNP bad SNP evil from the Brit Nat Press and Media. I feel so clean to have missed it all.

    112. Sinky says:

      O/T A lot of hypocrisy over football’s World Cup. England spent £21 million on their failed bid for the 2018 / 2022 World Cup bid.

      Will they publish details of who got this money? Was it bribes / inducements to vote for them?

      How much has BBC / ITV paid for TV rights for Russia and Qatar?

    113. Effijy says:

      Rock says:
      30 May, 2015 at 9:39 pm

      “Police Scotland said an investigation had found no criminality.”

      The Scottish justice system is rotten to the core.

      I’m with your Rock.
      Can the WoS team come up for Corrupt Westminster England that might compensate for us being Sweaty Sock Jocks?

      I think its too long but they are the “Pedophile Protectorate”

      They can dress it up as usual but they have at least 50 years
      of history avoiding the prosecution of these vile excuses for human beings.
      Politicians, Judges, Councilors, Senior Police and Civil Servants, all covering for each other with an endless series of
      future investigation.

      Lets start building the prison for them today and fill it tomorrow.


    114. Marie clark says:

      o/t where is Nana these days with all her links? Have I missed something when on holiday?

    115. crazycat says:

      @ Marie

      She did say something fairly recently about finding typing very difficult due to arthritis; I’m hoping there’s no other reason for her absence.

    116. invisiblejim says:

      There’s probably a mailing list these press hacks use to co-ordinate these attacks.

      Crack it open like a piñata and out will pour a tirade of horrible / offensive ideas, a few illegal actions under the cover of darkness and them spitting furiously at the Scottish public for not eating their cereal.

    117. lochside says:

      A couple of observations: the Quintinshill doc was poor and hastily put together with heavily English based experts and even locations ( surely there exists an old manual signal box in Scotland?). Even the actors portraying the signalmen were obviously English despite being Gretna men. And worse the narcissistic Neil Oliver was fronting it.

    118. Big jock says:

      Whataboutery classic defence of the guilty.

    119. Croompenstein says:

      @Marcia – Thanks Marcia will watch that..

      One of the things that bugs me aboot WoS is that I have been asking aboot Nana for the past wee while and no one answered but Marie asks and within 10 mins crazycat responds. 🙁 I know there are lots of posts these days but it would be nice if someone could give you an answer when you ask so many times, please get in touch Nana we miss you xx

    120. Marie clark says:

      Thanks crazycatand I agree with croompenstein please get in touch Nana if you can wee all miss your posts.

    121. crazycat says:

      @ Croompenstein

      If I had noticed your questions about Nana, I would certainly have responded.

      There are two issues; sometimes I’m catching up on a long thread and there are so many posts about other topics that any response I give will be lost and probably not seen by the original questioner (an argument, perhaps, for nested replies, but they have their own problems, as demonstrated on the Guardian). So I may decide not to bother.

      That doesn’t apply in this case – I definitely did not see your queries. Sometimes I think I’ve read all the posts in a thread, yet when I go back to it after a break, I find some that seem unfamiliar. They are interspersed between ones I know I have read, so they are not new posts which I would expect to have arrived in the interim. They are old ones which were not visible to me the first time.

      Therefore, even when I think I have read an entire thread, things may appear in it that I don’t see because I start reading where I thought I had left off.

      (I hope that makes sense!)

    122. Patrick Roden says:

      @ Effijy,

      “The Paedophile Protectorate”

      Yep that describes them perfectly.

    123. manandboy says:

      The Carmichael case, believe it or not, is an example of Scottish Sovereignty in action.

      Sovereignty, meaning supreme authority or power, is little understood in Scotland except as belonging to Westminster. Put simply, Scots think sovereignty, as power and authority over them, lies in London.

      Whoever is responsible for that, until sovereignty is understood properly by the people of Scotland as resting with them, there will be no Independence for Scotland.

      Is it any wonder the history taught in Scottish schools never revealed the truth about sovereignty to many generations of Scots children.

      And is it any wonder that Prof. Adam Tomkins of Glasgow University School of Law never ever tells us Scots about it, even though he is a a national and global figure in Constitutional Law.

      Is it any wonder that we can say that the No result in IndyRef is very largely due to the historic lie about Scots Sovereignty, perpetrated by Westminster over centuries.

      Sovereignty is the key to Independence and it is in our own pockets – if only more Scots knew it was there and the freedom it could unlock.

      Orkney and Shetland are leading by example. Let’s hope it catches on and spreads like wildfire.

    124. manandboy says:

      In GE15, approximately 1.41 million people in Scotland voted for a Unionist party , all of which are registered in London; Tory, Labour, LibDem and Ukip. I am sure that the majority have no idea what they are really doing.

      Your vote is your little piece of sovereignty; your very own little share in power and authority. I’d bet most people don’t know that, and that’s the reason why so many haven’t a clue – and haven’t a clue they haven’t a clue.

      We have a lot of work to do yet.

    125. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Rev just linked to this fascinating polemic from Michelle Moan, who has apparently, left Scotland forever, partly because someone called her a ‘cunt’ on Twitter.

      Presumably she’s saved all the offensive communications, and they are in the hands of Police Scotland. Right?

      Anyway, if you can’t be bothered reading it, here’s a summary:

      It’s all ‘our’ fault that she’s leaving i.e. us ‘cybernats’. Oh, and it’s Nicola Sturgeon’s fault for not reining in The 56, who have been dissing Westminster, acting like infants and being an embarrassment, and, oh, it’s also anyone-who-doesn’t-like-capitalism’s fault because they’ve made entrepreneurs like her feel uncomfortable, and they’re all asking her (when she’s at international business conferences for really important international business people who make underwear etc) why Scotland is so angry, and she can’t really explain it, you know, like, but, eh, but it’s all so beastly that she’s going to London, where cabbies give her a hard time anyway because, to them, she sounds as barbaric as any of the grotesque caricatures Steve Bell ever created, but never mind, you can take the girl out of the East End but you can’t fit two 46DDs into a 32b and she’s better off there anyway because she has a global empire to operate and it’s easier to do it from the capital of the known universe than a single-end in Alexandra Parade.

      (It’s got some nice snaps of her though!)

    126. charlie says:

      Petra the best way to respond to rubbish on Alex Salmond’s part is for him not to dignify it with a reply
      All the best

    127. Croompenstein says:

      I widnae give her oxygen Ian she’s a banger, her and that fucknut Bannatyne should get together mind you the offspring would be like the children of the Hydra’s teeth…

    128. Macart says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Michelle Moan has left? Is this lady important in some way?

      Y’know, I didn’t notice (shrugs).

    129. David says:

      Michelle Mone hasn’t quite thought it through has she, unless of course they don’t get Twitter in the Big Smoke…

    130. ronnie anderson says:

      Whit Michelle Moan left withoot saying goodbye, we could have orginized ah leaving do in Freedom Square,ah Bra n Nicker burning ( Ultimo).I sure some of our Ladies would take great pleasure in demonstrating their disregard for M Moan & her Brand of Underwear.

      @ Paula Rose would be 1st up.

    131. john king says:

      Capella @5.02pm

      I listened to that excerpt and the extremely defensive reaction of Nanjiani did indeed suggest she has a dog in the fight, your average uninterested reporter being told Carmichael was being (and he was) Boorish thuggish and sullen would have come up with a far less defensive challenge than an almost shouted “thats very unfair” and laughably her challenge was on another BBC employee, reverse that situation would she have been so defensive of Alex Salmond had he been as obstructive with a Westminster committee, I think not.

    132. Clootie says:

      On the topic of Ms Mone.

      The more I listened to the wisom of ordinary people during the Yes camapaign then the more I came to realise that “names” have no real value when the media parades them.

      The view of every person on here is as important as the rants of Ms Mone. Her “fame” gives no value to her words only a higher stage and a PA system.

      I want people to remain in Scotland or to come to Scotland to build something better. Those who wish to maintain an unfair society promoted by greed are not only free to leave they help improve Scotland when they do.

      100 years ago the elite sold the message that “they knew best”. The common man kept himself down by accepting the destiny of rank.

      A persons wealth / job title / etc should given zero value in either supporting their words or in rejecting their words – the thought expressed in those words are the only thing that matters.

    133. TheItalianJob says:

      @Clootie at 7.16am

      Fully support you on that one. And fully explained in the following Burns verse “A Mans a Man for ‘aw that”.

      Ye see thon birkie ca’d o Lord
      Wha struts and stares an a that
      Tho hundreds worship at his word
      He’s but a cuif for a that

    134. Boorach says:

      @ Clootie 07:16

      I wholeheartedly endorse every word of your post, thank you.

    135. TheItalianJob says:

      @Clootie at 7.16am

      And of course the rest of the Burns verse.

      For ‘a that and ‘a that
      His ribband, star, an’ a’ that,
      The man o’ independent mind
      He looks an’ laughs at a’ that.

    136. Andrew Brown says:

      Re the Quintinshill disaster my Maternal Grandfather’s brother George Smeaton (a Piper in the Regiment) died in the crash. Given that they were all headed for Gallipoli he would probably died there on pursuit of yet another of Churchill’s crackpot schemes.

    137. izzie says:

      GMS going over the whole Memogate saga in a look back at the week section. Replaying Carmichaels interview and Malcolm Bruces input. I bet he thought it would be all over by now

    138. Macart says:

      Well said Clootie, couldn’t agree more.

      Oh and I believe Ms Mone has made her feelings on Scotland quite clear on several occasions. The lady leaving should be greeted with complete indifference.

    139. Lollysmum says:

      The Italian Job

      The last two lines describes Wingers to a T.

      ‘The man o’ independent mind
      He looks an’ laughs at a’ that’

      History of WoS has shown that the vast majority of us are not the type of people who respect someone just because they demand our respect. Nor do we envy them their status or rank so why would anyone here care about the ‘Moan’ going? London is welcome to her.

      Only problem is she will be reinforcing the term ‘whinging jocks’ 🙂

    140. Breeks says:

      Was it not the case that the woman who required the First Minister to answer confidential questions under the freedom of information act was in fact in her first week of her new job and unaware that she was requiring the First Minister to divulge information which the Minesterial Code specifically forbade.
      I drew from this a certain reluctance from Mr Salmond to point any fingers at the error to avoid embarrassment for the womans error, being as she was, new in her post.
      As I recall, Mr Salmond would have breached the Minesterial Code if he had answered the questions, but would never have been put in that situation if FOI commissioner had been properly familiar with the rules. A fact underplayed by the FM, but exploited to the full by the rank opportunists in Better Together.

    141. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      Logged on to Indiegogo to look at the donations so far and got this frightening message: ERROR 503 – Backend unhealthy. Is there a doctor in this house? 🙂

    142. Stoker says:

      @ Lollysmum (9.05am).

      Perfectly put, i was just thinking of that very point.
      It’s what makes us, well, us.

      Also, well said Clootie (@ 7.16am).

      The day we stop being us we may as well just be Unionists.
      Perish the bloody thought!

      The SAS have a motto which, translated, means “He who dares wins.”
      I like to think if independence supporters had a motto it would be something along the lines of – We who dare to be different.

    143. Big jock says:

      The Moan is to politics as a Char lady is to nuclear physics. Not worth comment as she has no knowledge of the subject.

    144. TInto Chiel says:

      I thought Ms Mone had left some time ago (again). She’s had more come-backs than a boomerang.

      Like all Cringers, she’ll feel a lot better once she grows a back-bone and acquires some self-respect.

      Adieu, Tristesse.

    145. Marie clark says:

      Archie ( not Erchie) @ 9.24 the fundraiser now stands at £49,157. Getting there.

      All of this in five days, it’s nice to know, that some folks really care enough about the democratic rights of people, to dip our hands into our pockets, to support Orkney & Shetland.

      Let’s keep it going folks.

    146. Robert Peffers says:

      @crazycat says: 31 May, 2015 at 12:34 am:

      ” … even when I think I have read an entire thread, things may appear in it that I don’t see because I start reading where I thought I had left off.

      (I hope that makes sense!)”

      That wee problem is common to all, crazycat. It is caused by the page update delay. I’m often playing catch-up and reading posts on a thread and If I forget to right-click and then click, “Refresh”, I can then miss comments or even that a new topic had been posted.

    147. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Nicola Sturgeon on Murnaghan on SKY news now

    148. cearc says:

      Archie (not Erchie),

      Maybe they’ve got piles?

    149. One_Scot says:

      Maybe I am missing something, but who is Michelle Mone, is she someone of any significant importance.

      Should I lose sleep now she’s gone.

    150. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Nicola excellent on Murnaghan. She has a massive ability to distil the important points on any issue into a logical and easily delivered sequence

    151. Lollysmum says:

      Alex Salmond’s speech at the Trident debate.

    152. Qwerty says:

      This legal campaign sets a dangerous precedent.

      By all means Cahrmichael is a liar and should probably stand down for a by election. But it is his choice whether to do so. He can do the honourable thing, or wait until 2020 when his constituents will say what they think.

      But he should not be brought down by a lawsuit. A democratic desicion cannot be undermined by people who are unhappy with it taking it to court. This is dangerous and should not be allowed to force Carmichael to resign.

    153. HandandShrimp says:

      Mone said she would leave if there was a Yes vote. There was a No vote and she left anyway. Trusting the Better Together types was never going to go well for the No voters. They were not honest in their arguments or intentions.

      However, something to remember when we come to this again.

    154. crazycat says:

      @ Robert Peffers at 10.18

      Thanks – I did know that sometimes (but not always) there are delays, but since I was mainly trying to make sure Croompenstein didn’t feel neglected, and my post was already long enough, I left that bit out.

      You’ve compensated for my omission.

    155. DerekM says:

      I see the onions are back to their usual tricks of lies and smears,in this case its a lets pull out a two year old lie/smear to try and cover up AC`s lies and smear.

      O/T Despicable bunch and if anybody thinks its just us they do it to then the FIFA corruption incident should open a few eyes.

      There is no coincidence in the fact the USA and UK instigated this on the eve of FIFA elections in a deliberate attempt to smear its president,yes those people who got caught were criminals but those same people were in place when the USA got awarded the world cup ,i did not see them complain about it back then,and leaves one wondering if England and the USA had won their bids to hold the next two world cups if this would have come to light.

      This is purely politically motivated by two countries who think they are better than other countries and should have the final say on all matters even inside a private company and that the will of the organisation should bow to them or else.

      I am so proud of the people of the East for not falling for
      their deception of trying to put a man from their neck of the woods in charge as their puppet,well it wouldnt be the first time they have tried this method.

      Its total sour grapes from two countries who are very bad losers and i call on the president of FIFA to throw them out for bringing their political idealism into the sport of football.

      So Dave Cameron i hear you are calling on Mr Blatter to resign over corruption in FIFA,well i am calling on you to resign over corruption in the UK parliament ,so when can i expect your resignation,i cant i didnt think so you hypocrite.

    156. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “But he should not be brought down by a lawsuit. A democratic desicion cannot be undermined by people who are unhappy with it taking it to court.”

      It should if it was achieved illegally. That’s what law is for.

    157. Lollysmum says:

      Qwerty using same avatar as Yoda (Rev’s photo). Are they one & the same person or just creeping? Not sure that will work with Wingers or Stu.

    158. Robert Peffers says:

      @manandboy says: 31 May, 2015 at 12:57 am:

      “Whoever is responsible for that, until sovereignty is understood properly by the people of Scotland as resting with them, there will be no Independence for Scotland.”

      That is the absolute truth, manandboy.

      “Is it any wonder the history taught in Scottish schools never revealed the truth about sovereignty to many generations of Scots children.”

      The rewriting of history for political advantage starts with written history. The Romans were the first to begin written history and much of their history contradicts itself depending on which person’s account you read. They were trying to further their own careers back in Rome.

      The lies and omissions have continued ever since. For example how many readers have heard of“The Edinburgh-Northampton Treaty”? Yet it is of great importance for if followed the Declaration of Arbroath. This not only declared Scotland independent but established that her people, not her monarchy, were sovereign.

      This declaration was accepted, under the then international law, by the Pope in Rome and the Scottish people’s sovereignty became the basis of Scottish law that still pertains today.

      The Treaty of Edinburgh–Northampton was signed in 1328 between the Kingdoms of England and Scotland. It ended the First War of Scottish Independence that began with the English invading Scotland, (1296). It was signed, in Edinburgh by Robert the Bruce, on 17 March 1328. It was ratified by the English Parliament at Northampton on 1 May.

      The terms of the treaty were that in exchange for £100,000 sterling, the English Crown would recognise The Kingdom of Scotland was fully independent; that Robert the Bruce, and his heirs and successors were its rightful rulers and that the border between Scotland and England were as recognised as they were in the reign of Alexander III (1249-1286).

      Then there was no Union of the Crowns in 1603 as both kingdoms continued as independent which was why there was a Treaty Of Union in 1706/7. Yet, as the three country Kingdom of England in 1603 was still under the then legal system of, “Divine Right of Kings”, it should have become part of the Kingdom of Scotland when the Scottish Monarchy inherited it in 1603.

      That was why there were Jacobite Uprisings after the English Kingdom deposed their monarch in 1688 and imported King Billy & Queen Mary. Yet England claimed these were rebellions but you cannot rebel against a monarchy not your own. It was also why the English had to force the Scots to sign the Treaty of Union in 1706/7. If there had been a Union of the Crowns why would they need a Treaty of Union?

      Yet under that Treaty of Union the Scottish legal system remained independent and thus the people of Scotland remain sovereign. There was then a Scottish, “Claim of Right”, (1689) and again in 1989.

      At no time since 1320, (Declaration of Arbroath), have the people of Scotland been asked to give up their sovereignty – not even by the recent referendum which was only about whether or not they wished to end the Treaty of Union.

      Which treaty, by the way, cannot actually now exist in its original form, (two equally sovereign Kingdoms and two equally sovereign kingdom’s parliaments), as it only now applies to the actual Royal Realm, (Kingdom). The Westminster Parliament no longer is a union of the only two kingdom’s parliaments that existed when it was signed.

      It is now the de facto parliament of the COUNTRY of England that has devolved the United Kingdom Parliament’s powers to only three of the four United Kingdom’s COUNTRIES.

      This is, (again), the abusive misuse of the terms Kingdom, Country. These two terms are not legally mutually inclusive. While a Kingdom may be a country or a country may be a Kingdom it does not always follow that they are. For example Wales is a country but is/was not a Kingdom. While Ireland was a kingdom that was annexed by the English Kingdom in 1542 but remained a whole country. It is even doubtful if it ceased to be a country when politically partitioned first as a Dominion of the United Kingdom and then as an independent Republic. But note that it became a Republic which only indicates it rejected being part of a Kingdom. In fact it was the Northern Irish who were given the option of remaining part of the United Kingdom, (realm), but that is not the same thing as remaining part of a country.

    159. ronnie anderson says:

      I hope Michelle Moan (the Booby Burd) has every success with her lovein with England.

    160. Fiona says:

      @ Qwerty

      This legal campaign sets a dangerous precedent.

      Dangerous? To whom? That really needs a little elaboration

      By all means Cahrmichael is a liar and should probably stand down for a by election. But it is his choice whether to do so. He can do the honourable thing, or wait until 2020 when his constituents will say what they think.

      Why do you think that he should have a choice, when his position was secured by misleading the voters? Do you think that someone who lies on their CV should not be sacked when it comes to light, but should keep their job until their next performance review?

      But he should not be brought down by a lawsuit. A democratic desicion cannot be undermined by people who are unhappy with it taking it to court. This is dangerous and should not be allowed to force Carmichael to resign.

      The law is in fact the safeguard of democracy. That is one of the things it is there for. It is deeply flawed, but as it happens the recall legislation has been passed, though not yet implemented. It follows that even our politicians do not agree with you, since recall provides a legal mechanism for doing what the law suit seeks to do in its absence. Presumably you wish to see it repealed. Personally I think it is long overdue

      If you are happy to be ruled by people who have no notion at all of the standards of behaviour the rest of us take for granted, that is fine for you. If you are happy to accept a downward spiral which ends with politicians doing anything at all which suits them, no matter how detrimental to their constitutents or to the country as a whole, that is fine for you too.

      But that deferential position vis a vis elected representatives in no way reflects my view of what they are therefore. I think they are there to serve, not to rule.

    161. manandboy says:

      “If you are happy to be ruled by people who have no notion at all of the standards of behaviour the rest of us take for granted, that is fine for you. If you are happy to accept a downward spiral which ends with politicians doing anything at all which suits them, no matter how detrimental to their constitutents or to the country as a whole “. . . (Fiona above at 1.16pm)

      With this sentence, Fiona, we are looking at the malignancy at the heart of British Politics. Happily, here in Scotland, we have begun to remove this tumour with the removal of almost all the Labour MP’s. But, not so in England, where the same situation prevails, and where a tiny minority who have vastly different standards from the bulk of the populace, are nevertheless in power.

      When, and only when, the electorate in England realise that the neo-liberal Unionist cabal have abandoned the core beliefs of the majority in the land, will there be an overturning of the present regime, which is acting like the board of a bank who are taking all the depositers money out of the bank for themselves.

      As yet, too many English voters are happy with that situation.

    162. brobb says:

      Capella says:
      30 May, 2015 at 3:28 pm
      @ Stan McConnell
      Thanks for the link to GA Ponsonby’s article on this issue. He treats this with cunstomary detail. I have his book “London Calling: How the BBC Stole the Referendum” and it makes for grim reading. Not for people with anger management problems or high blood pressure!

      Currently reading this but have to stop every now and again to rant and rave. It would be good to get this book into every library, charity shop, school and any other public venue where books are shared – how on earth are the BBC still getting away with their blatant and biased reporting? Seems like links to Labour blind and poison and render stupid all who come into close contact – self destruction hopefully follows!

    163. jamie says:

      I have learned a lot from reading this column and thank you all for your efforts. keep up the good work : “Thig an fhirinn a-mach” !

    164. Rock says:


      “Politicians, Judges, Councilors, Senior Police and Civil Servants, all covering for each other with an endless series of future investigation.”

      Endless series of cover ups and white washes.

      The plebs in Scotland have finally woken up, thanks to the internet, and they don’t like it one bit.

      They can’t crush such non violent opposition.

      I won’t be at all surprised if they manufacture some violence to crack down on us.

    165. Broch Landers says:

      This is why we need WoS. It’s that simple.

    166. orri says:

      The reason you leak information rather than rely of issuing a FOI request for it to be revealed is that it’s of a confidential nature. When dealing with government documents doing so isn’t always simply a sacking offence. By doing so there’s a potential to damage the reputation of the UK if not directly endanger it’s citizens.

      Put it this way ruffling the French’s feathers to an extent they felt they had to intervene might have caused enough damage at the time to ruin any deals that might have benefited the UK, Scotland or even Orkney and Shetland. Certainly amusing seeing Cameron trying to cosy up to them in order to gain support for changes to the EU he present to the electorate in order to secure a vote to remain a member. So any risidual ill will has the potential to bring the UK, including Scotland, out of the EU.

      As I’ve said before the leak may constitute a breach of the Official Secrets Act so a trial for electoral malpractice is mild compared to what might happen if that didn’t take place.

      As to it being a dangerous precedent. That’s factually incorrect given it’s happened on other occasions the most recent of which was this,

    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.

    ↑ Top