Out of the quagmire
UK politics is stuck fast in the mud, going nowhere, and the casualties are mounting. Whether on Brexit, independence or anything else, we’ve all become so dug-in to our positions that some people – naming no names – have forgotten where the battle lines are or what their political war was even about in the first place.
For 30 months now, the Yes movement has been trying to answer the question of how to get a second indyref. The SNP has a triple-locked democratic mandate based on Scotland being dragged out of the EU against the will of its people, but as strong a moral argument as that is it unfortunately runs straight into a brick wall of reality: the constitution is reserved to Westminster.
Equally we’re consumed by the ongoing Brexit trainwreck, which has no apparent escape route from a poisonous stalemate paralysing the UK’s politicians and leaving nobody in control as the country heads for some very hard buffers.
As the self-imposed Brexit deadline looms, Theresa May is running out of options. Her deal is a dead duck. When it inevitably fails, there are two possible scenarios: a second EU referendum of some sort (nobody can agree what the options would be), or a general election.
Neither the Tories nor Labour want another referendum because both parties want Brexit to happen, so another election is the more likely. But all the polls suggest it would deliver much the same hung parliament as we have now, solving nothing.
Last week, SNP MP Joanna Cherry QC gave a speech to a diverse pro-Europe group that includes former Green leader Caroline Lucas, pro-indy commentator Lesley Riddoch and Tory MP Dominic Grieve. And as she waxed lyrical, with a twinkle in her eye Cherry slipped in reference to a hitherto-undiscussed plan that offers an escape route for everyone.
As we’ve seen over the past two years, the SNP have been systematically shut out of Westminster debate and lawmaking in the House of Commons. But behind the scenes the party has been seeking like-minded allies across all parties. Ms Cherry and her band are proposing a plan which would radically reshape the political battlefield.
In order to call a general election now, the Tories would have to invoke one of the two mechanisms in the Fixed Term Parliament Act. One of those, a two-thirds majority, isn’t going to happen. But the other mechanism has a really interesting provision; if a vote of no confidence in the government is passed (by simple majority) then a general election will be held unless a new government can be formed within two weeks and a vote of confidence in it passes.
What this means is that Labour, the SNP, the Lib Dems, Greens, Plaid and some disgruntled Tories could form a new unity government – a cross-party administration like the National Government of WW2 – without a general election. And at a single, perfectly feasible, stroke that would change everything.
Such a unity government could – thanks to the case successfully argued by Ms Cherry and her allies in the European Court of Justice – unilaterally revoke Article 50, thereby keeping the whole UK in the EU. However that’s probably an unrealistic hope, unless public opinion on Brexit shifts quite a few more points towards Remain in the coming weeks.
A more plausible outcome might be a softer Brexit where the UK stays in the customs union and the single market, while still satisfying the result of the 2016 referendum. (Which, remember, didn’t specify any particular type of Brexit.)
Anyway, these things would be up for debate and discussion – the key point for independence supporters is that in return for the support of the SNP’s bloc of 35 MPs, which would almost certainly hold the balance of power, the National Government would have to grant key new powers to the Scottish Parliament, such as control over immigration and the Section 30 powers to hold a new independence referendum.
Ladies and gentlemen, start your engines.
Obviously this hypothetical scenario has a lot of moving parts, but what Joanna Cherry and her companions have done is found a way past two seemingly-impassable barricades: securing a new indyref in line with the democratic mandate of the Scottish Parliament, and potentially saving the rest of the UK from a disastrous no-deal Brexit (or a civil war) into the bargain. It’s a brilliant piece of political manoeuvring.
But before we get ahead of ourselves, just how viable is this scenario? First of all we’d have to convince Labour to play ball, and thus far Corbyn hasn’t shown any inclination to work with the SNP, seemingly more ready to deal with the DUP.
But if the current polls are to be believed, if Theresa May does indeed call a general election before Brexit, Corbyn is almost certainly sunk. Would he really repeat Ed Miliband’s mistake and deliver the entire UK into the hands of a shambolic, cut-throat Tory party for a generation? (Labour would tear itself apart in the recriminations.) Perhaps, but he almost certainly wouldn’t survive as leader in such circumstances, and his dream of a glorious socialist revolution would be dead forever.
His best shot at being Prime Minister is now as part of a rainbow coalition including the SNP. He could use a relatively short unity government’s term in Number 10 to deliver real change in the UK and consolidate his support without fatally alienating the large number of Labour Leave voters in the north of England, perhaps resulting in a Labour majority in a future England and Wales general election.
The rather thornier problem might be getting some Tories to vote for this. But let’s not underestimate the crisis in the Tory party. Believe it or not, there are some good Tory MPs who believe that defying their own party is a price worth paying if it saves the UK from a devastating no-deal Brexit.
But perhaps more importantly, if Theresa May’s government falls, then it lets the Tories off the hook for Brexit. They could blame whatever the outcome is on the cross-party government – and therefore primarily Labour – thus avoiding the stigma and electoral wilderness that looms large if Brexit goes badly, as it definitely will on the current path.
Theresa May has always been a lame duck Prime Minster, stayed from execution only as long as she could carry the can for Brexit. If she goes, the party has an opportunity to reinvent itself. If Labour can be persuaded to back the Cherry plan, there’s a good chance that enough Tory rebels – only a small handful would be needed – will join it either out of a sense of duty to the country or simple self-preservation.
But what of the SNP itself? Cherry’s speech sparked furious online debate in the Yes movement, with many members expressing deep discomfort with the idea of the SNP propping up a Westminster government of any flavour.
That, however, is a self-defeating argument. We’re stuck in Westminster for now, so we have to try to make it work for us. We need to see past the current constitutional and party political arguments and remember why most of us got into this game in the first place: Scottish independence and the lasting societal change it would deliver.
Rather than focusing on the arguments of the past, a National Government would allow us to redraw the battle lines and obtain our goal by other means. It would end the costly, bitter stalemate of trench warfare, put a huge meaningful power in the hands of the Scottish Parliament, and remove the Tories from power in as little as two months.
And that’s a result worth fighting for.
Interesting. The problem for me is that a promise of a Section 30 order for Scotref would come from Unionists. Even if this was locked in legal niceties, we know from experience that the Unionist lawyers would unravel it at their time of choosing.
This all sounds very good as long as a handful of Tories vote for the no confidence in the first place.
Correction: Dominic Grieve is an MP and QC, not an MSP.
Jeezy Peeps! That correction took effect in a microsecond or less! 😀
Don’t need a Section 30 for a referendum in my view.
Spot on article, Lindsay and spot on final analysis.
Brilliant political manoeuvre by Johanna Cherry, but this is likely to be scuppered by Corbyn and Labour. They are as terrified as the Tories of the SNP being within spitting distance of the levers of power.
Any general election where SNP are the kingmakers would be quite a result….
Can already here the howls from middle England at Scottish democracy influencing / taking part in *their* government.
Remember one thing.
Theresa May is not afraid to go to extremes when left in full executive control during a Parliamentary Recess up to authorising an “urgent” retaliation after weeks of faffing about just before Westminster was due to sit again.
God knows what she’d do in a contrived emergency during a 6 week election campaign. Not sure she could sign her deal without authorisation. Impose martial law and shut down the devolved assemblies. Send “policemen” from the UK mainland to Ulster for crowd control.
So deposing her without leaving her in charge is well worth a shot. To be clear I mean go rather than assassination.
Any majority would have to be enough to take into account the 7 Labour MPs and maybe even the 4 LibDem MPs who will almost certainly vote against this arrangement, and their parties, to keep their own jobs.
We have to consider all viable possibilities. The Brexit crisis is likely to be our best opportunity for many years. If the ‘Cherry plan’ proves to have legs we should try it.
Sorry, but I can’t see it. I recon TM will scrape home by a handful thanks to having bought off the usual rash of Toadies, plus being helped by a number of others, (the Demented Ulster Puritans amongst them), who will have been persuaded, for the benefit of their career as opposed to their country, to abstain. I hope I’m proved wrong…
Perhaps better to field SNP candidates across England and Wales on a manifesto of remaining in Europe and dissolving the union to rid England of those pesky Scots who just want handouts. That gets near 50% of the voting public south of the border and a westminster landslide…
Joanna Cherry’s suggestion is sensible and I can’t disagree with your analysis, but I have an instinctive distrust of any plan with too many moving parts.
I suspect this particular plan may be holed below the waterline by the Bain Principle.
very interesting scenarios, but I couldn’t see a government of national unity surviving long, Labour would certainly playing games to get all their own way,as it did in the 1970s when SNP MPs propped up a minority Labour Government.
What I suspect is more likely to happen is we are going to see is a no deal Brexit, which would give Corbyn what he wants, and allows him to pin all the blame on the Tories for the disaster that results after Brexit.
And the British Nationalist parties will do what ever they can to prevent a second independence referendum frombeing held.
Broadcasting – we MUST get a hold of Broadcasting.
Nice if it happened, Lindsay. Good article.
BBC Scotland not to worried by Brexit, they are more concerned that complaints by Nicola Sturgeon supporters (unnamed of course). Looks like just a manufactured story to keep it as the main headline.
Rep Scot also uses the Theresa May quote about adhering to referendum result but of course fails to mention the 79 vote or the fact that May voted against the Scottish parliament after the massive majority in 97.
To quote the Rev. ‘Any broadcaster who doesn’t inform their viewers/listeners about this background context today is not to be trusted:’
It’s a nice idea, I just don’t think it would ever happen. Unionism is so ingrained in many that they wouldn’t support giving section 30 order. They would honestly rather return to the current f**ktastrophe than give us a chance on our own (until such times as our resources have been fully exploited). At best this plan delays the hard brexit for a few weeks, or allows renegotiation and a better deal without giving SNP much credit. let’s not forget the huge difference in polling for Indy with no brexit, bad deal, and remaining in the EU.
In one way, this plan mirrors Brexit itself.
The aspect of Brexit which has never been explicitly accepted is that if England wants to leave the EU on anything more than the softest Brexit, then the UK Union is unlikely to survive. The two things are mutually exclusive.
Similarly, for this plan to get enough backing and come to fruition, there would have to be explicit acceptance that it will probably also facilitate the end of the UK Union. The powers of an A30 would (should) be the SNP’s price.
So, it all comes down to priorities. All along I have felt that the big underlying priority for May has been preservation of their Union. From the outset, any National Gov including the SNP would need to have sorting out the Brexit mess as its primary priority.
Are there enough MPs in WM willing to accept the UK Union may be past its sell by? Or would they put chaos before that acceptance?
Well that all sounds lovely
Never going to happen and I’ll tell you why, both Tories and Labour would never never stand for the SNP having control of so much as a teapot in what they feel is their parliament under any imaginable circumstances, we’re not talking logic here we’re talking Unionists in their most bare tooth blood and soil clawed reality, the very idea that SNP representatives could be a part of a government in England could precipitate civil war in that country because for years upon years they’ve been warning English people of the horrors of the Scots, they did it with the Irish as well and on recent DUP behaviour who could blame the English for thinking the SNP were the same
A fine idea based in law and trust but when you put a proposition like that to actual people who don’t even trust themselves not to be duplicitous, as they say, you’re on tae plums
Scotlands route I believe is still application to the ECJ and UN on refusal by the Tories of a section 30 order recognising Scotlands claim of right to hold referendums for and by the sovereign people of Scotland to determine their own future as laid down in United Nations statute to which the UK are signatories
Threaten the UK with that right now if you have to use the law at all and perhaps a section 30 order will materialise as England is in enough trouble with the rest of the world at the moment, do they want to be completely viewed as a dictatorship pariah state like their Saudi chums
Interesting. But the English Government will be mendacious with regard to Section 30 – there will be legal caveats – and downright interference from MI5 and GCHQ; therefore, they cannot, and must never be, trusted.
Their word, whether under Corbyn or May and the forces of darkness, cannot be relied upon.
That said, it could be argued this is a fine political and legal strategy by the SNP; if we were somehow blamed for saving England from itself and its appalling Brexit, the propulsion for Scottish independence could be provided by an angry and resentful England, furious it has been thwarted, and keen to find a scapegoat.
And if that was to be Scotland we may just find ourselves on the path to freedom after 312 years of slavery and subjugation.
Interesting times. And time will tell
In the nick of time, a hero arose . . .
In such a scenario where Scotland had any hand in stopping Brexit the English public would want us to separate in my view. They have already indicated such in polling.
Bit of win/win.
What makes it interesting is that the Tories and Labour no matter what they vote are going to be punished by one constituency or another in England. I think they have probably looked at those figures, and that would decide direction.
[…] Wings Over Scotland Out of the quagmire UK politics is stuck fast in the mud, going nowhere, and the casualties are mounting. […]
I am appalled by Joanna Cherry’s suggestion that the SNP might be part of a British government. And sickened by the idea of them being in a coalition with Tories.
And for what? Lindsay Bruce acknowledges that Article 50 is unlikely to be revoked by the ‘British Government of One Nation Unity’. And the notion of a better deal is simply a rehash of British Labour’s inane promise to secure such a deal despite the fact that negotiations are closed. And, we are strenuously assured, not going to be reopened under any circumstances.
There is no resolution of the Brexit mess in this repugnant arrangement. Principally because there is no resolution possible. It will infect and dominate British politics for decades to come. And here we’re being told we should become ever more deeply embroiled in this diseased politics. No thanks!
Ah! But there may be some baubles and trinkets on offer from the imperial power is we commit to playing their game. How woefully naive is that? Delegitimising Scotland’s democratic institutions and eradicating our distinctive political culture are imperatives for the British state. The British Nationalist ‘One Nation’ project isn’t going to come to a convenient halt just because the SNP has gone into coalition with the very forces driving that project. Why would it?
We elect SNP politician’s to represent Scotland’s interests. I joined the SNP, campaigned and voted for it because the party promised to break the British state. If the SNP is now embarked on a project to try and hold the British state together, then it is getting my support under false pretences.
#DissolveTheUnion
A well written article but I have my doubts about the rainbow thing. To further paper over the fault line scale crack in the tory party that begins and ends with the EU, is merely a variation of the kick the can down the road policy.
It’s a clever political tactic but it lets the tories, and by extension the union, off the hook. At this stage any way out of this mess looks attractive, and from a humanitarian point of view the harm reduction aspect of this plan is laudible.
I can imagine the reaction in English hard brexiteers 6 months down the line, re-empowering a non-reformed tory party with cries of WM being held to ransom by the SNP, and it is at that point that we would be most vulnerable.
We could well end up at that stage having Corbyn manufacturing yet another GE (by whatever means, maybe NC vote) and the tories getting back in and hamstringing HR at the same time as scuppering any prospective indyref. We trust that man at our peril, and the tell would be the timing of the prospective indyref.
Let’s imagine that we hold that, and leave the UK. Where’s the majority in WM for the rainbow then ? So let’s not imagine that those who would oppose our independence do not have that same ability to imagine that and kick the indyref date down the road for a year or so to “ensure stability” in the rainbow govt.
It is a higher risk tactic than it may first appear for us, and it does have the real potential to leave us 2 years down the road fromsome rainbow coalition, back to where we started, beyond the current mandate with no realistic prospect of having the vote we crave. And all this having “fixed” the brexit issue for the tories, and in return inherited the political headache that they have earned.
The main issue is, if we preserve the customs union and single market, then do we give away one of our main weapons for voting independence ?.
Just a thought.
…. the National Government would have to grant key new powers to the Scottish Parliament, such as control over immigration and the Section 30 powers to hold a new independence referendum.
Well, by all accounts we don’t need a Section 30 Agreement, control over immigration is a given if we stay in the EU or win a soft Brexit booby prize. And if we did go shopping in the Westminster Sweetie Boutique, control over Broadcasting is a much more tasty bargaining commodity than immigration. (For clarity, that’s immigration AND broadcasting, not “or”).
And as for the promise of more powers? Gulp! I…I… I got a bad feeling about this Bob… It would seem one of the powers would be time travel, transporting us back to August 2014 when some of us fell for the “Vow”.
So, being as constructive as I can be…I’ll see your Continuity Labour Government and “2019 British Vow”, and raise you a unilateral Scottish revocation of Article 50 fast tracked through the ECJ.
Won’t happen for the reasons stated above by other contributors.
There is an imperialist mindset at work throughout the Labour, LibDems & Conservative parties.
It is extremely difficult for right minded people to get into the mindset that views the almost divine right of England to rule over others.
The only thing that is going to leverage change is some sort of breakdown in society. Civil unrest, or a section of English society that could in theory exercise power outwith the Westminster bubble. Perhaps an alternative power centre like Manchester or another city.
Scotland is viewed as a colony. It’s a fact.
If only we were dealing with reasonable people.
‘there are two possible scenarios: a second EU referendum of some sort (nobody can agree what the options would be), or a general election.’
Or a No Deal, unless I’ve missed something and it’s now not an option ?
I would NEVER trust anything which incorporates Westminster Unionist politicians. None can be trusted, there would always be ways out for them but not for us.
How can we forget the recent past so quickly. They lie, they cheat,they steal, misdirections and divisions are what they excell at.
Nope we need to find a Scottish solution which gives us a fair chance of success, not ever likely when dealing with these english parties, it is in our hands.
They know or at least those at the top know, just how much Scotland means to their “precious” UK. They will pull every trick to save it.
Utilising the collective sovereignty of Scots is our only sure way, after all, even Westminster has acknowledged it is real. If we or our representatives do not use it, what is the point of having it? We must use it.
“I joined the SNP, campaigned and voted for it because the party promised to break the British state.”
Totally get what you’re saying, Mr Bell, but sometimes it’s easier to break something from within.
I have been musing to myself [and to my husband who says he didn’t hear me] about a National Government for a while, in the context of the two-party system being undemocratic to the point of dictatorial and also allowing the accumulation of useless MPs that we have had for many decades.
Westminster itself has recognised the weakness of its own systems by forming a kind-of proportional government at times of national crisis when, of course, no one party wishes to take the blame for it.
So I am thrilled that Joanne Cherry is working on this idea. Westminster has created a crisis and no-one wants to take the blame so the criteria for a National Government have been met. Self-preservation seems to be the main driving force in Westminster so I can see it happening – the first glimmer of hope I’ve seen for a very long time.
Of course every other avenue should be pursued simultaneously – ECJ, UN, standing in constituencies outwith Scotland as that would at least ensure more slots on TV/radio programmes for SNP. And if London has probably got a very large Scottish population [in the same way as it is the 4th or so largest French city] we might win some seats there [is there a Scottish quarter just as Earls Court used to be Australian?].
Anyway I am enjoying a surge of optimism today! Will MPs vote for self-preservation and a share of power?
Well, of course they will!!!
Always interesting to read such articles.
Such a coalition would be required to Promise Scotland receives some Benefit or other. Perhaps a Vow of some sort would suffice, or perhaps some type of Treaty or Agreement which would ensure the Union would Honour its Commitment when the Time Was Right for it to do so.
Section 30 orders are by agreement between the Westminster and Holyrood governments and are the way to formally create legislation or transfer powers back and forward between their parliaments.
That includes protecting legislation just as is the justification for saying that the Holyrood Continuity bill had moved beyond it’s competence in a single area. Which is obvious bullshit.
FFS PEOPLE, NEVER TRUST A TORY, OF ANY COLOUR!
Yes, I really like this strategy. SNP hands on Westminster Government levers would make a large chunk of England incandescent. I could see them INSISTING we are ‘cast adrift’. The only problem? It is feasible. Only the ridiculous, irrational and hysterical succeeds in our present circumstances.
Well reasoned article and should give folks some food for thought. 😎
The best form of self defence is not to be there:
For over three hundred years Scotland has been defending itself from English politics now just when we have a chance to take ourselves out of their dominance some folk want to join up with them
Are they mad?! Are they suffering memory impairment?! Just because they allow you to play on the swings with them, they’re still their swings and they’ll cut the rope and we’ll be on our Arses all over again with no swing to play on just like we don’t have now
What a stinking pile of horse manure.
We are stuck in Westminster by ourselves not by the system. We don’t need a section 30 , we just need someone with the balls to declare ourselves sovereign.
Labour remember ? Labour.
Who have had 4 yrs to work with SNP.
They will NEVER sanction this; hate of SNP is in their DNA.
Its all far too sensible as an option.
Will never happen. Never.
FWIW I agree with Peter Bell, but surely the main point here is that Lindsay B, and Rev (to name just two) have actually set their minds to this whole appalling mess and managed to conjure possible solutions. Whether they would actually work or not is beside the point.
The scenario outlined above should, at least, have been identified, taken onboard and discussed by the main players via MSM as part of their job, to provide citizens with the broadest possible analysis and options. Instead, we’ve been enduring this Brexit bunfight for years, listening to the same voices repeating the same mantras like pished parrots.
I applaud Lindsay for this effort, and it will be added to the already teetering pile of rock-solid evidence that WM/Establishment don’t give a solitary fuck what we think or say, not even when it’s possible they could benefit from listening.
Hell mend them, and the sooner the better.
A lot if interesting ideas here but I’m not sure about any Unionist parties accepting SNP MPs as part of a government and agree with Peter A Bell about a possible coalition with Tories.
If May’s deal is voted down, as expected, I would like the SNP to remind the HoC that Leave was voted for only my majorities in England and in Wales. As Scotland and Northern Ireland voted Remain, they should at least be allowed to stay in the customs union and have free movement of people as the SNP MPs proposed at an early stage after the 2016 vote, but were ignored.
By allowing this, the massive English majority at Westminster could have the Brexit they voted for, the Irish Border would cease to be a problem (though the DUP would protest) and Scotland would have the compromise she suggested in 2016. I think Europe would accept this as there are already countries in the EU where different parts have different relationships.
However, if this suggestion is not accepted, Scottish MPs, with approval by Holyrood, could the immediately propose an Independence Referendum. In the circumstances and with Europe and the World already bemused by the antics of this government in Westmister, I think it would be hard for them to refuse consent.
If th
Changing the UK Govt without an election so the SNP can save the UK state? That’s not democracy and acting against Scotland’s interests.
SNP under Sturgeon = British Establishment and pro-Colonialism?
We’ll get the final answer soon enough.
That’s what I forecasted would happen a few weeks ago.
I have always thought the Brits would find a way not to deliver Brexit.
And the fall out will be handled by their propaganda machine media apparatus.
There will be some minor unrest,and possibly even a tiny bit of bloodletting.
A few chairs thrown around a few Town Halls will be all.
As for Indy2. It seems as far away as ever if UK doesn’t Brexit.
I would gladly give up EU citizenship for Scottish Independence so my forlorn hope is Theresa’s deal gets through Parliament.
The chickenshit British chokers won’t do it. Cowardly weak british that they are.
Sensibledave,you will not get your navy blue passport after all.
I don’t know why I’m bothered come to think about it, the SNP membership would never stand for it so it’s a non runner before it gets started
A national government where the SNP hold the balance of power. A national government that unilaterally revokes Article 50…
That would be so sweet. We wouldn’t have to lift a finger to fight for independence: at the following election, the gammons would kick us out 😀
The Tories 30 years into oblivion
Scotland has an IndyRef when it is convenient and can be wom.
50,000 folk keel over every year and the young ones come on board. The 2/3% needed.
Just vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Make it happen. It will take the ones (of 30%+ ) that never vote.
Unity Gov? Forget it. Labour/LibDems just as bad as the Tories.
Part of Cherry’s reasoning was that it is not in iScotland’s interest to be bordered to an economic disaster area. Even if a lot of our ‘trade’ with England is our exports seeking an export port we could still do with a buoyant rUK to trade with.
For a start in any economic downturn it sure as hell won’t be London and the SE feeling the most pain, it will be North and W/SW as per usual. The latter being our border region. Do you fancy modern day English Reivers heading north to raid us in desperation? I would rather face the Scottish court system and be incarcerated up here than in some private sector hell-hole in Englandshire so I can see what the attraction would be: loot and money or a holiday at Scottish taxpayer’s expense. We will need a hard border even if we impose it ourselves in that scenario. Employment for border guards I suppose but we could do better.
They will still take £Billions out of Scotland and waste it on rubbish.
Give them an inch they will take a mile. Save a halfpenny to waste a £.
Rotten to the core. Look at the state of them in Westminster. Not a rational being among the unionists. Takers and fakers, Leopards never change their spots.
An interesting thesis, one based on wishful think, that somehow, some way, the British state will not outmanoeuvre any move to restore Scotland’s independence after we have saved the British state from disintegration. Aye, right.
Any deal with a Unity Government to ‘guarantee’ Scot Gov permission to hold an indy ref 2 – would be subject to the following troublesome fact.
No Government can bind the hands of future Governments. The promise would be broken on that basis, within a blink of an eye. They would prevaricate, then hold another GE / coalition Gvt – the one thing which they could agree on being to shaft the sweaties again.
None of the WM parties can be trusted… just look at how they view their signature to the GFA. They will literally say anything to get what they want, and then throw their toys out the pram when the world expects them to honour their side of it.
The English Remain voters (or labour, or libdems) are just as English Nationalist as their Leave voters, when it comes to keeping a hold of the Cash Cow Scotland – their last colony.
‘We love you Scotland, don’t leave us, lead us’.
I rather think stoor’s been blawin. We should have longer memories than this.
No matter your point of view there’s no doubt that 2019 is set to be a watershed year for both the SNP and the independence movement generally. When the dust finally settles on Salmondgate and Brexit, Nicola Sturgeon could well find herself out of a job. Playing the game by Westminster rules is a mugs game and it’s becoming clear that a change of tack is urgently required.
At a time when we’re desperately in need of strong leadership willing to take on the establishment rather than bow to it, we’ve got a leader who’s busy tying herself up in knots over issues which shouldn’t be of concern to a mere politician. Allegations of criminal activity should be investigated by the police not governments and anyone charged with a crime should be entitled to their day in court before being hung out to dry.
If Scotland ends up out of the EU and denied the opportunity to hold a second independence referendum then the current strategy will be seen to have failed and Sturgeon will certainly have to walk. Whoever takes over will need to return to basics, be unafraid to go on the offensive and willing to embrace radical options such as refusing to take SNP seats at Westminster and turning the next UK general election into a de facto referendum on independence.
I’m sure Lindsay will have read in my Twitter ramblings from a month ago.
I hope Joanna took comfort reading them, as I explained that the trenches are no longer along the trite Tory Full Fat (Conservatives) and Tory Lite (Labour) battle lines, but the split in all UK Parliaments is between suicidal, sociopathic Brexshitters and realistic, pragmatic humans.
We just need common sense to get out of this.
Oh, and an iron fist in velvet glove to quash forthwith any attempt by neonazi far right fanatics to stir trouble.
If Scotland got better off so would the North of England. Too much of Scotland’s wealth and resources is wasted by Westminster. Total mismanagement. They do not have a clue. That is the point of Independence.
Too much of Scotland’s resources have been used to fund London S/E. used to finance illegal wars, tax evasion and financial fraud. Then Scotland does not have the funds for what it needs. To grow the economy etc. Westminster centrist policies have depopulated Scotland and led to the North/South divide.
a GE would not solve anything unless we can keep the two main parties out.An election with NI remain parties Wales with PLAID CUMRU ,GREENS even LIB DEMS. SCOTLAND will be SNP,GREENS,LAB for IND.even LIB DEMS.England has to vote GREENS,LIB DEM,FREE YORKSHIRE,CORNWALL for IND.,NORTHUMBERLAND for IND.They form a rainbow GOV.and stop brexit dead.
It,s the only way I see it being done.
I felt like a stateless human being after 2014. I felt like I was an alien in a foreign land. I was angry and disillusioned with my fellow country men. I never want to feel like that again.
If this coalition comes about , I will feel worse than I did in 2014. Because it will be in the knowledge that I was cheated by my own people and all hope will have been extinguished.
Very much the way the Irish felt in Scotland 60 years ago.
Joanna Cherry Is just looking for a solution to the Brexit impasse. To not damage the Scottish economy and people’s lives. She is discussing the present. Not looking to the future which has still to be decided. By an Independence Ref as long as people vote for it. It is still up to the voters.
Just under 2 years ago, I sat down and really tried to get my head round the real motives for Brexit, since the stated ones held no water, and risked them losing Scotland.
I said then, that I thought they would be unable to keep the disaster that is Brexit a secret, and that they would attempt to embroil the SNP into another EU vote (with too little time to change the outcome) to distract them from working for IR2.
Watching the film ‘The Spiders Web’ filled in some of the blanks. Scotland is the number 2 risk. The real risk is to the generations of wealth stolen from former colonies – stashed in tax havens.
The tories have a job to do – deliver No Deal / or something equally shite,which protects the tax havens, and destroys the economy.
Labour and Lib Dems have a job to do – make nice noises, and be completely ineffectual, and most essentially ensure that A50 goes ahead and is not extended or revoked.
Brexshit and bad, destroyed economy, food riots, state of emergency – Holyrood closed. Job done.
We are running out of time.
Are we going to get another VOW from Westminster. 5 years on how is that looking.
Good attempt at bringing a reasonable approach into the mess. But I’m very much with everyone else on here, it will never ever happen.
Labour won’t, no gov can tie the hands of future govs, the vow…been there, got fucked, not going to again, smith commission…ditto.
My strong feeling is that the deadline will be moved back. Looking like July possibly, think EU will be deciding this.
As for GE, won’t solve anything and even a re run of EU, unless an agreed all 4 nations hit 51% and over clause is put in, even then if Tories still in charge they would rewrite that too, as they are a shower of utter bastards and can never ever, ever be trusted…same result and same mess will ensue.
Let them fuck it. And let us get on with getting out of their mess, by regaining our independence.
In my humble opinion I cannot see Westminster allowing SNP to get in a position where they hold the deciding votes on Brexit.
English people see Westminster as their parliament ,they control what goes on and what is decided in it and certainly don’t ever want Scotland having enough power to decide matters that affect England, especially something as far reaching as Brexit.
I think Scotland will just have to wait and see .
I know that sounds weak but I think it’s the truth.
I reckon Nicola Sturgeon thinks this way too .
I cannot see Brexit being stopped
Once it happens Scotland will have an independence referendum
I think the key will be how many people in Scotland still vote NO to Scottish independence after being persuaded ,some would say brainwashed , by the British media ,that the Brexit deal we end up with is acceptable and might actually improve their life rather than damage it.
Any sort of Brexit no matter how soft will damage Scotland and the people living here hugely.
Now more than ever we are seeing what happens when you give another country control of so much of your own country, we cannot stop the media saying what it says even when we know it’s blatant lies, we can’t even stop the BBC Scotland doing the same and what’s so maddening is that it’s Scots that are doing it .
We have no control of Scotland ,Englands Westminster allows us to do some things in the Scottish parliament but they are irrelevant things when it comes to independence.They have even set it up in a way that attacks Scotland from within with so called LIST MP,s that nobody has ever heard of
Negotiating with Westminster has betrayed us time and time again, it’s surprising to see people still prepared to do it.
England wants Brexit and they want it now ,the problem is they want to keep control of Scotland and Northern Ireland as well and they can’t do both without independence and reunification referendums, that hasn’t changed .
Alec Salmond Nicola Sturgeon storm in a teapot irrelevant
Roll on Scottish independence.
I can’t see Westminster refusing a second referendum whenever Nicola following the Brexit outcome and it’s associated consequences (general election or 2n Brexit referendum).
Surely no Westminster Government would be as stupid as to deny a Scottish referendum which has the approval of Holyrood and the circumstances of which are clearly laid out in the SNP manifesto (significant change in circumstances).
To do so would be the biggest steroid to YES imaginable!
If you don’t like living in a colony how has history shown the way to change your country’s status.
Is it working with and assisting the colonisers (on a promise of better times ahead) while they continue to rip you off or is it the opposite?
I don’t trust them. I don’t trust their civil service. I don’t trust their media. I don’t trust their negotiators. I don’t trust their spokespersons.
So I would take some convincing that this scheme can work.
But I will give it some thought because I do trust Joanna Cherry and Nicola Sturgeon.
Not another VOW ……..I couldn’t cope with that
LIST MP,s are a con in the Scottish political system
If we just look at the MP,s VOTED into holyrood and Westminster
70% of them are SNP
In my mind that’s more than enough to declare Scottish independence let alone have a Scottish independence referendum
Even after all the crap we have had to put up with from England I’m still prepared to agree that having another Scottish independence referendum would be fair
I hope for the life of me that we win it
Roll on Scottish independence
@Capella
I think that’s how many will view the idea. It hinges on trust and frankly Westminster parliament/politics in general hasn’t the best of track records. People are going to take a great deal convincing should this be considered a serious option.
“We wouldn’t have to lift a finger to fight for independence: at the following election, the gammons would kick us out.”
Imagine it. The rainbow National Goverment revokes A50. England demands a referendum to leave the UK. Whcih means – as it did for Scotland in 2014 – they’d also be leaving the EU. So, in one fell swoop they’d get rid of the yews and the sweaties. Job done. (Who would be the successor state then?)
Maybe there’s more to Joanne’s cunning than meets the eye?
@Capella
Aye. We have to put trust in someone or there is no hope left.
Once again I’ll ask.
‘there are two possible scenarios: a second EU referendum of some sort (nobody can agree what the options would be), or a general election.’
So this article rules out a ‘No Deal’ Brexit. Can the author or someone else tell me how that has been removed as a possibility, because as far as I can see it hasn’t ?
A Government of National Unity that included the SNP could cause real friction between its MPs and Holyrood. Who would be the ‘branch office’?
Sooner or later there would be a clash between British interests and Scottish interests, and what would SNP MPs do at that point – especially if some held ministerial posts?
Confidence and supply by all means, if needed. See how well the DUP has done out of that? But part of government – No.
Settle up, not settle down.
If the SNP MP’s did indeed hold the balance of power in such a scenario, I would sincerely hope they would ask for powers much more important than a section 30 order. I mean, seriously, that would be the point to gain devo max as well, not just ‘please sir, can we have a bit of paper headed ‘section 30’.
However, this obsession with section 30, hides a real problem at present, and nobody seems to be addressing it. You see, I have seen and heard some good people argue that since the UK government won’t give a section 30 order, then the only option is an ‘advisory’ referendum. Those same people then argue that in such a scenario, unionist parties might simply boycott the referendum, leading to it being deemed invalid. They then suggest the SNP needs to at the next westminster election seek a specific mandate to hold a referendum, and ask yet again for a section 30.
Within that entire argument is a complete lack of ambition. A semi-permanent’ ‘doffing of the cap’ to London. You see the SNP already has a democratic mandate to hold a referendum. So what exactly is the point in holding out for another democratic mandate to hold a referendum, if you won’t use the first? Especially, if when refused the first time, you meekly go away and do nothing. I mean seriously, what has westminster got to fear? Nothing.
You see, at some point, the indy movement and the SNP will literally have to bite the bullet, and fight for independence. Their is at present a clear democratic mandate to hold a referendum on indy in Scotland, but Westminster says no, so what do you do? Ask again? Ask the people again, only to have Westminster refuse again and again and again. You cannot have a clearer mandate than that which exists at present. It is blindingly clear.
You see the harsh reality is, that Westminster does whatever it wants. So, people in Scotland could elect an SNP MP from every single Scottish constituency, and Westminster can and would still say no to a referendum. We could have the Scottish parliament with only SNP MSP’s, and still London could say no So, I ask again, what do you do?
Answer. Realise that Westminster is NEVER going to allow a Scottish independence referendum, especially if they might lose. 2014 was a one-off. David Cameron allowed it, because support for indy was around 25-30%, so he fully expected the independence movement to be crushed with defeat. Westminster will NEVER make that mistake again.
So, to be honest, talking of asking for a bit of paper, headed ‘section 30’, is utterly pointless. If the SNP hold the balance of power, they should demand devo max at the very least, and if not they need to think of a different approach to gaining indy.
In the meantime, what is the solution to London saying no referendum in Scotland? In my opinion, there is no other option than simply no longer accepting that a wholly undemocratic unbalanced parliament in England, where Scots are ALWAYS in the minority, DOES hold such power over Scotland. Why are we exhibiting such cringing subservience to such crooks, liars and thieves who ignore Scotland’s voice?
You see you really need to consider just what an elected body is. The Scots parliament IS the voice of Scotland and so (in London) are its majority pro indy MP’s, so it is about making that case. Arguing it IS the absolute right of Scots to decide, as per the claim of right. For westminster to claim it controls ‘constitutional’ matters in Scotland is wholly untenable in light of the claim of right, and Scots law. This should be pushed hard. The Scottish government should just start legislating to take control over Scottish constitutional matters, and then let unionists or London go to court.
Westminster only has these ‘powers’ because it says it does. It just like the wizard of Oz, all smoke and mirrors.
You are not going to get a section 30 order, no matter how many SNP politicians you elect. It is time for some ,especially those in the SNP leadership to grasp that fact. You either call a referendum without one (which of course can be done easily), or you start to pursue the court actions I suggested.
Many in the independence movement and the SNP are still playing by ‘the rules’, while in the meantime, Westminster, who observe no rules, is systematically dismantling the devolved parliament bit by bit. How long will we dither and wait?
But either way, just remember this simple fact, you will not ever get another section 30, no matter how often you ask.
Just for reference though, IF the SNP did get involved with a Westminster cabal, and all they asked for was a section 30, they would lose a whole lot of voters. As regards the SNP, where is the ambition? where is the fire in their bellies? Where is the fight??? Scotland is getting f***ed by London, Scots are having EU citizenship forcibly removed against their wishes, we have a majority of pro indy MP’s and a pro indy Scottish Government, yet all they witter on about is a section 30 and ‘saving England from itself’?????
“Once again I’ll ask.
‘there are two possible scenarios: a second EU referendum of some sort (nobody can agree what the options would be), or a general election.’
So this article rules out a ‘No Deal’ Brexit. Can the author or someone else tell me how that has been removed as a possibility, because as far as I can see it hasn’t ?”
Sigh. No of course it hasn’t. But she’s not going to announce it as a PLAN, is she? And neither a second referendum nor a general election inherently STOPS a no-deal anyway.
Interesting article Lindsay, sounds good on paper as they say, but as you also say it would need a whole host of circumstances and agreements to come together. When it appears the HoC can’t even agree what time of day it is.
It seems to me that the Section 30 Order, is the main goal, and so it should be. Is there no way to circumvent the need for Westminster’s approval at all?
I don’t trust them to live up to their end of the bargain history shows they renege where possible.
Why don’t we use the coming GE if it happens as an indyref as well.
Joanna Cherry is my MP and if you’re reading this Joanna, then go for it, but make sure that under any deal, certain powers are repatriated to Scotland. Both broadcasting and immigration have been listed above (I believe provinces in Canada are allowed to have different immigration rules, so there are precedents).
Also see if you can get hold of the power to hold further Scotland referenda as well, Section 30.
And all those powers that WM wanted to grab as well.
I also read that two of the conspirators were overheard conspiring in the WM cloakrooms and were grassed up, so there is some substance to the rumours.
I despair when I read that normally sensible MPs like Joanna Cherry come up with ideas like this.
I know that she is using her QC brain and is trying to work out a clever solution that no-one else can see, but we don’t send her down there to save England.
She is there to save Scotland.
I think it was the former MP George Kerevan who said that it wasn’t until he left Westminster that he realised how he had been seduced by it, and he was there less than two years, if I remember correctly!
I understand that when down there, you get involved in the cut and thrust of debate and you don’t want to be seen as “inferior”. But maybe some of our MPs should remember they are not superior either and get on with kicking the wheels of. Not bloody oiling them.
I saw the article earlier and was thinking about it a bit. Probably agree with all the comments in a way, which means it’s served a purpose, as has Cherry’s idea, of being a thought piece. Thoughts are
1). If this was what the UK wanted, it would be the right thing to do in itself, and has merit for that alone.
2). Clearly the having a bankrupt and disorderly neighbour is not appealing.
3). There is a way of making it quite cast-iron, never mind a change to S30, remove ANY restrictions on referendums from the Scotland Act and then …
4). Have a referendum in Scotland on accepting the permanent change that
a). We can hold a referendum whenever and as often as we like within reason
b). Holyrood is permanent unless the People of Scotland decide to disbande it.
c). Sewell is statutory as it was supposed to be
The chances of that referendum passing are probably about 99% – it’s not Independence, but it is permanent self-determination (sovereignty). I daresay there would need to be some legal stuff thrown in.
It would possible involved having an additional Treaty, not replacing the Treaty of Union, but augmenting it. Treaties have international regulation of sorts, as per that Vienna Convention.
Oh, and the above to be done within a very short timescale, maximum 3 weeks (not including the confirmatory referendum itself).
That sort of thing.
The point of the additional treaty encompassing this is that I too wouldn’t trust Westminster further than I could spit on it, but I would trust the ICJ to uphold a valid Treaty. And of course, the UK is a ratified signatory of the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties.
Well I’ve just listened to Theresa May’s statement in HoC where she particularly advocates her “deal” as a means of preventing Scottish independence.
Ian Blackford on his feet now.
link to parliamentlive.tv
Theresa May has just attempted to blackmail the Commons MPs by saying vote for this or Scotland will choose Independence and Ireland will choose a border poll
So there you have it once again it’s all about Scotland
A very interesting article. However, I’m with a lot of others here, it’ll never happen. Westminster do not want the SNP anywhere near the levers of power. They would rather cut off their noses to spite their faces.
If they did decide to accept the SNP offer, they would promise us the moon, and then tell us to feck off as per usual.
Naw it’s mibbie a guid idea to be kicked aboot on forums etc, but, and it’s quite a big but, I don’t think that the people of Scotland would care very much for this idea. It’s not our fault the mess that England is in. It’s entirely theirs, so leave them to get on with it.
I’m out on this one, let’s get the hell outa here as quick as we can.A;WAYS REMEMBER YOU CANNOT TRUST THE TORIES OF EITHER COLOUR. WE SHOULD AT LEAST HAVE LEARNED THAT LESSON BY NOW SURELY.
@Capella
Apologies for saying the same thing as you but your post hadn’t come up yet
“Those same people then argue that in such a scenario, unionist parties might simply boycott the referendum, leading to it being deemed invalid.”
Unionists could boycott IndyRef2 if they so wish – that’s their democratic wish but it won’t have any effect in undermining or delegitimising a YES victory. The (boycotted) IndyRef2 result will stand.
I say this because we already have a precedent right here in the UK of this happening:
As such, it would be somewhat suicidal of BritNats to boycott IndyRef2 as it would just make it easier for us to obtain a bigger victory and legitimate result.
Actually callachan, constituency MSP’s, if thats what you mean by VOTED for, are 81% SNP.
If the Holyrood was FULLY FPTP, on that known basis were extrapolatd to all 129 seats, the SNP would have won 104 seats from 129 in 2016
The SNP won 59 from 73 constituency FPTP seats, only losing 14 in total from 73.
As usual, you cannot provide accurate figures for anything, although it is interesting you OVERPLAY the numbers of English voters in Scotland by over 300,000 in your pathetic drive for your bigoted narrative, yet UNDERPLAY the SNP constituency seats by 11%.
You are fooling nobody.
Nigel Dodds of the DUP has Theresa May on the ropes with her Brexit EU statement, oh wait in fact it is a knockout blow.
Westminster governments, national or otherwise, cannot bind their successors. Any agreements made with the SNP will be repudiated at the first opportunity.
Federal Broon should be along shortly.
I complain a lot when I post, so here is what I would do.
The SNP announce/arrange a referendum for Saturday 23rd of March whether we have a section 30 order or not. I want to see them use this chaos to our advantage, not wait until it is over.
People will then have a clear choice and by that stage will know what is definitely on offer.
I know that people say we will only have one shot and it is over, but I disagree.
If we did loose and then Brexit turns out to be the disaster that most people think it will be, then it won’t be just SNP voters who wish, in that scenario, to be independent.
My only worry, as I have stated before, is that after Brexit the Dunkirk spirit kicks in and that is a real danger for independence.
I of course maybe too fundamental, but for God sake, give people like me something to cling to or some independence action.
No Tory would ever vote in a Labour PM, that just ain’t going to happen.
Another General Election is what I think.
I see Sky not so much News still at it, as soon as a SNP person gets up to speak they switch to reporting on a grey squirrel, not even a Red squirrel.
While this FUBAR debacle is going on in England the Scottish media are still arrow focussed on the SNP wars of the FMs with each *faction* sending Jedi knights to defeat the other
and all invented to avoid mentioning and taking the heat off the Daily Record David Clegg and the civil service
The Scottish press and media are in such a panic to get people to believe this shit they’re making it up as they go along now to the extent they’re saying now that the information Clegg got was from one or other of the FM or former FMs team
It wiz sumdy else it wiznae mee I’m pure innocent says the Worshipful Grandmaster Clegg
Aye and ma hied’s oan backwards
Keep well away from this kind of overly-clever, technocratic shadow-boxing. Whatever became of the battle for Scottish Independence?
Theresa May taking her lead from Donald Trump. Just lie and keep on lying and polish the brass neck later on in the evening.
Britnats lie and they keep on lying. It is one of their outstanding traits – Terry old boy still lying eh.
My question about all this would be.
Where in this plan is the ability to stop the Lords from interfering in any agreements made ?
Many times it’s been the Lords who have stymied things for Scotland on behalf of the Commons.
When it comes to all the moving parts, it’s the Lords who have the spanner to throw into the works.
Joanna Cherry is a brilliant lawyer with a great legal mind, as is Nicola Sturgeon. However I would be extremely wary of getting involved in saving England from itself. First you would be dealing with both Westminster Tory and Labour parties, neither of which have any interest in Scottish independence or in telling the truth. Second any promise of a Section 30 (which is not required in any case) would be kicked down the road, at least until the election of a new majority Westminster government, which would then renege on the promise, as being no longer in the interest of the UK. Please just divorce any and every attempt to engage Westminster, and just go for independence even if it has to be UDI.
Peter A. Bell Wrote:
“I joined the SNP, campaigned and voted for it because the party promised to break the British state. If the SNP is now embarked on a project to try and hold the British state together, then it is getting my support under false pretences.”
This is exactly the kind of entrenched idealism that I think that we need to get away from, and – if I may – it’s exactly why there was fuck-all progress on the Irish peace progress for decades because neither side was willing to move an inch or consider alternatives.
Politics is the art of the possible. I wrote this article not because I think that Joanna Cherry’s scheme is likely to succeed, but because I applaud her ingenuity in finding a way to change the focus of debate and give us a potential alternative. Real leadership is understanding your opponent’s position and finding a way for them to achieve their goals while you achieve yours. Refusing to work with Westminster is gesture politics, a pointless exercise which, if followed, would means Scotland continuing to be under the thumb of Westminster for decades to come. What we need to do is use Westminster to our advantage, to find pressure points that we can exploit to get what we want.
Brexit has riven the Tory party from top to bottom, and Labour is almost as divided. If we don’t exploit that to the fullest extent possible, to use every and all opportunity before us, then we simply aren’t working hard enough for independence.
Terence Callachan @4.11pm
Terry old boy you should stick to opinion and not facts. If you keep getting facts wrong people will think you are back to deliberately lying again. We know who lie all the time Britnats.
TMay, and her government’s Withdrawal Agreement Bill will be defeated by ~400 to ~200.
No government or PM can continue after a devastating defeat like that.
I think we can be certain things will not continue with delays, can kicking, running the clock down. There WILL be a change of direction.
Well I’m not up for that one. Let them call a vote of no confidence, request an extension, and hold their GE (as I don’t see them holding EuRef2 for all sorts of reasons). Let them, and Queenie, work out what to do with a hung Parliament. Good enough for them. Without the SNP Corbyn will be up sh*t creek without a paddle leaving a weak (again) Tory Government struggling and their party continuing to implode. He didnae want us anyway and wee lackey Leonard has shown his true colours.
Let the Scots witness this ongoing, ongoing, ongoing calamity, as it no doubt will be, and then hold our IndyRef2 before the extension period expires with or without a Section 30. If we get a majority vote and they tell us to shove off our SNP MPs should march out of Westminster and head home. And then we take the case to the ECJ and UN, if need be, as a majority of Sovereign Scots will have made their case.
The down side of course is that an England in chaos, financial and otherwise, will have a negative impact on us (worse than what they have been / plan to to to us?). On a positive note it may shake up the Establishment to the core and lead to positive change across these islands.
We’ve got an absolute catalogue of “incidents” to draw from that highlights that they don’t give one whit for the Scots and would stab us in the back at the first opportunity. They’ve created this mess. Do we want to get involved in carrying the can? Or the poisoned chalice? Let them get on with it ….. without us.
Meanwhile let’s show support for the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond. Another fine example of Westminster back-stabbing. If you haven’t done so already PLEASE join the SNP, ASAP, to let the powers that be know that she has our back, because as you know they are trying to get rid of her RIGHT NOW. If they manage to accomplish that, what then?
So, WM can say “Naw!” to a S30 request from Scot Parliament. Just HTF are they allowed to do that when N.I. (as part of the GFA) can hold a ‘Border Vote’ (Reunification Ref) any time they please?
If N.I. has that right then Scotland, a signatory nation to this ver unequal ‘Union’, must also have that right. If WM continues to refuse S30 request then it’s off to the ICJ/UN and WM can just GTF.
I’ve got a loofah.
Have any of you guys bothered to read Craig Murray’s ” The Scottish Parliament Does Have the Right to Withdraw from the Act of Union.” If not then READ IT
“Obviously this hypothetical scenario has a lot of moving parts”
Heath Robinson would balk at such a mechanism.
But on a chaotic and disordered battlefield, the inventive and adaptive prevail. An “A” for effort, I suppose.
Govt of National Unity is usually a codeword from the right meaning “fascist takeover” – Wilson’s enemies were always suggesting it to him – the Tories and the Labour right.
It would be a bad look for the SNP to do this – with no guaranteed of success – trying to out-sleakit people who canny be trusted makes me think of the fable of the scorpion and the frog.
“Believe it or not, there are some good Tory MPs”
Pish. Name one.
@ Dr Jim – snap! It’s hard to watch the debate and type at the same time. 🙂
I regret my loofah comment. The earthshattering SNP civil war is where I wish to place my political loofah. The SNP loofah is obviously quite nice, I do wish it were a touch more abrasive, indeed I wish it had a bit of wank in it.
Choose your own loofah.
Dr Jim
Satah Smith given an open microphone on R4 this evening to absolutely stick the knife ion Nicola, the SNP, Alex and the Scottish Government, all in one go.
Absolute flat out civil war, not just between the two leaders but between the members who are now choosing sides.
Absolutely no way that Nicola can call Indy ref 2 whilst all this is going on.- on other words, the WM establishment and MSM are rubbing their hands together thinking that they have brought the SNP house crashing down and there will be no Indy ref 2.
WRONG!!!!
Admit the timing is not good but then that has been planned all along.
O/T, I guess…
Just picked this up from Paula Rose’s Twitter page.
link to new-direction.scot
@ Meg merrilees – satan smith. That’s a bit harsh!
@ Roguecoder – thanks for putting this out there. I knew there were some moves afoot to develop another plan for Westminster but I didn’t know what it was.
I’m well aware that the leadership in the SNP will have a strategy worked out. They will not broadcast it over the hostile media, that’s for sure. So it leaves ordinary members like me, and non members, necessarily in the dark and second guessing wht might progress the cause.
One thing we all agree on though, Westminster is a cesspit of lying thieving scoundrels who must never be trusted. To paraphrase JFK – there is no depth they will not plumb, no treaty they will not shred, no people they will not betray, to secure their own advantage.
That’s why there’s some scepticism about looking at alternative methods that rely on a modicum of trust.
@Brian Doonthetoon
Opened an account with the EU Parl.
Petition No 1551/2014 by Catherine McKernan (British) on the European Parliament showing public support for Scotland’s EU membership in a situation where Scotland is an independent nation
Status: Not admissible
…. not working out as hoped!?
Ignorant Tory says failure to vote for the Maybots deal will let genies out of bottle which are very much kept corked. He means Scots in Scotland need to be kept corked. Cheeky barsteward.
It was bad enough when they used to say keep Scotland in its box but now we are stuck in a bloody wine bottle with a cork to remove. Don’t remember Cameron/ Clegg/Milliband saying this is where we would end up when they issued the infamous VOW.
A simple lesson needs to learned – assume that Westminster is/will be deceitful, treacherous and dishonest in any dealings with Scotland.
Come on SNP get the corkscrew out and use it.
STV news lead story Alex Salmond and the SNP at loggerheads as split deepens. STV news controversy surrounding contact between Salmond and sturgeon.
The unionist media will run and run with this BS for months.
Interesting submission, but unlikely given the personalities on the opposition benches other than the SNP. I do, however, think there is another route out of the ordure.
The fundamental problem with the 2016 referendum was the threshold. Staging the vote on a simple majority basis, was always a recipe for disaster. For major policy decisions that have a fundamental impact on our lives, a higher threshold should be used – which if attained, would represent an overwhelming shift in the established public opinion for a change to the status quo. But we can’t turn the clock back and we must respect the result of the 2016 vote – and thus the status quo is now for the UK to exit the EU.
However the 2016 vote was flawed in other aspects. The spurious claims and lies from both campaigns offered the electorate an impossible choice – particularly given what we have learned in the two and a half years – and there SHOULD be a second vote now that we have a better idea of what Brexit actually means. But if that happens, the higher threshold must apply. 70/30 would be a minimum – but this must be attained now by those who wish to “remain” part of the EU – as our current default position is to “leave”.
It can be done. The EU would welcome a second vote – and continuing membership of the UK. An application to delay to Article 50 would be granted without doubt. They would also be more receptive to the concerns raised by those in the UK who wish to leave; immigration, bureaucracy, sovereignty etc, than they would if we simply turned our back and walked away. An irresistible argument could be made, providing the concerns, fear and suspicions are allayed.
That said, I hope, in a way, it doesn’t happen. I’m thoroughly enjoying the anarchy at Westminster and sincerely hope it spreads like a contagion throughout England and civil war ensues. Where is Cromwell when you need him?
Petition not working for me either BD
We’ve been waiting what seems like forever for the SNP to make their move. And this is what they come up with? Geez…how disappointing!
Don’t watch STV news. Hit them in the pocket. Load of nonsense anyway. Thry just make it up.
Treeza May said she voted Remain.
I think she is a little liar.
I think Treeza is an Anglican Little Englander racist, who hates all those Furriners who have invaded her country and she wants out of the EU as much as Nigel Farage does.
@Meg merrilees
I don’t believe for a nano second this Jedi war in the SNP is anything but a fabrication of the press media and civil service, the FM and former FM are pals and colleagues and have been for years, this invented power play by one or the other just doesn’t scan at all and again I believe its sole purpose is to distract from our southern cousins implosion and desperation to hold Scotland tight so create a circus around the SNP for us to look at to stop us looking at them
It’s mince! The only way the FM would turn her back on the former FM were if he was guilty of something and that’s what the media and press are trying to promote is happening without evidence, so they hope by continually stirring the mud something might turn up, but if it doesn’t hey they kept the electorate busy from Brexit and sewed some hate around, job done
I am a soft Yes voter. I have been arguing on and off in this forum for a wee while that the SNP has a moral duty to do everything in their power to stop Brexit. As seen in my past couple of posts, I had posted about my realisation that due to my intellectual arrogance I had been taken in again by the worm-tongue words of British nationalist disguised as liberals.
This argument of a national government of unity to stop Brexit should naturally appeal to me but it doesn’t.
The massive hole in the strategy is that time and time again, the Tories, regardless of their colour, can’t be trusted so why trust them now?
The other massive hole is that while the SNP is the national party of Scotland and as I had mentioned do everything in their power to represent the needs of all Scots, regardless of whether they support independence but the raison d’etre of it and those who support it is Scottish independence. The SNP may need to do detours like taking the Brexit process to it’s logical conclusion for keeping the long term goal of independence but it would be madness for them to pursue a strategy that would affect that long term goal. I can’t help but feel this would have a disastrous effect on indy.
Apart from the damaging effect of being in coalition with the Blue tories, the SNP would be seen as part of the Westminster machine, rather than distinct from it so would call into question the very notion of independence because it would be plain to see that any crisis or short-coming of the Westminster system would be plugged by the SNP and independence supporters. With that safety mechanism that will always kick in place, there would be no alternative to the Westminster system.
I know that does contradict my argument that the SNP are the national party of Scotland and needs to act as much but as I mentioned they need to tread a fine line between these two goals and as long as they are seen not to be actively disrupting the system in order to further the goal of independence, they have no responsibility to fix the problems of the Westminster system.
The bottom line is that the SNP has a duty to the people of Scotland to ensure they do everything in their power to stop Brexit but it is going too far with this potential fancy dancing with these Tories. You shake hands with the devil, you won’t get your hand back.
The folk who say the EU petition is not working may have clicked on the wrong one. I think the petition is the one with the name Martin Keatings attached. I have signed this and another one about Scotland as well.
@Monica Worley
The SNP didn’t come up with this Monica, this is an idea floated by a legal mind (Joanna Cherry) that would never be passed by the membership and Joanna knows it
The SNP doesn’t work that way, SNP MPs just don’t make policy on the hoof, the membership is where policy originates or is consulted on, it’s just an idea to have a blether about, what the American excecs used to call Blue sky thinking that goes nowhere
But it’ll keep some folk hummin and hawin for a wee whiley
My answer to the Alex Salmond story is to rise above.
I don’t watch BBC Scotland news or STV news.
My solution is not to mention the Salmond story and go for Brexit right away.
The Salmond story actually bores me and I haven’t even bothered to find out all the facts about it,,,I just can’t be arsed.
So my advice is to completely ignore the Salmond story when debating with a potential Yes voter.
Hi galamcennalath et al.
I created my account, following the instructions at the link I posted.
A tad convoluted but I was able to support the petition, using the link in the link I posted. This is that link (“Click to Support” in the ‘new-direction.scot’ link):-
https://petiport.secure.europarl.europa.eu/petitions/en/petition/content/0701%252F2018/html/Petition-No-0701%252F2018-by-Martin-Keatings-%2528British%2529%252C-on-behalf-of-%25E2%2580%2598Forward-as-One–Scotland%25E2%2580%2599%252C-on-a-request-that-the-European-Parliament-votes-to-support-Scotland%25E2%2580%2599s-independent-membership-of-the-EU
What a load of shite. You’re being played for fools.
Brexit will win us our Independence.
We need to trust potential Yes voters that they know the difference between a smear and a fact.
They know that the Unionist media will try every trick in the book to prevent Scotland becoming an Independent Nation.
My view is that we should be trying EVERY angle possible. At the moment I thought the consensus was that we won’t get a referendum that is acceptable to voters and internationally i.e. with a s30 order. And no party is going to give us one.
At least under a National Government we would be at the table and surely could stay long enough to see our referendum through?
Lindsay just to say, thanks very much for taking the time to put this excellent article together. Giving us the heads up and therefore food for thought.
According to STV news reporter, “row between Salmond & Sturgeon”. Surely “row surrounding Salmond & Sturgeon”.
How one word can twist a complete statement.
Sarah@7.06pm
“No party is going to GIVE us one”
Anyone see anything wrong with that statement because I do.
Regarding a possible G.E. Is it just me, or is the softening of the Tories to the “rape clause” and the slowdown of the roll out of Universal credit not possibly things for the various focus groups to chew over.
It could be the first tentative feelers for the public’s opinion on a snap G.E. bearing in mind Jeremy Corbyn isn’t all that popular.
Yes, it might just be another variety act to fool everyone into thinking that it’s not predestined that the cute little doggie whose bark is just like a dog’s bark, is sneaking up behind ready to go “woof” and wow everyone into submission.
10
Purely an observation, but I’ll doubtless be shot down for it by the usual suspects.
Cherry’s proposal is an interesting one but many of the comments above, dismissing it out of hand, are borne of the same mentality as held by the most gammonish no deal brexiteers.
This ‘no deal’ indy approach has, I believe, developed (particularly on these pages) from a steady drip feed of dishonesty and subterfuge by all things associated with ‘the establishment’ to the point where many folk, it seems, are unable to see a decent proposal, that could deliver their primary objective, through their red mist of rage against the machine.
Similarly, no deal Brexiteer types are so conditioned to mistrust and despise all things associated with the EU through their daily diet of bile from the Express, they have lost sight of what it was they voted for, only that it must not involve any compromise with Juncker at al.
A hard line Scottish nationalist and a no deal Brexiteer are the same beast in many important ways.
The only way anybody is going to get anything remotely approaching what they want out of all this is by dialogue and compromise.
Which is what politics is all about after all.
Or, we can all continue to stand behind our lines and hurl insults at each other forever more.
I had no problem with accessing Mr Keatings EU petition.
The story about the rift in the SNP is Bullshit, but while BBC and STV are happy to roll about in it lets not make any attempt to stop them, let them get on with it.
@Brian Doonthetoon at 6:11pm
Just supported the petition – surely an absolute must for any Yes+Remainer!
Navigationa bit tricky, but got there. Strongly recommend you follow the links from Brian’s post, instead of trying to find it yourself.
Anyone remember the two well intentioned independence supporters (Mr Hook and friend) who approached the BBC about their “bias”. A good case was put together and the BBC managers seemed to promise that they would change their ways to some extent anyway. How’s that looking today. Why keep assuming Britnats can be trusted to be decent people. They lie all the time.
The BBC is the propaganda arm of the British state.
Do not trust them. Do not trust any Britnats.
From Angus B MacNeil:-
Tomorrow SNP must argue for a second referendum … On independence! (not Europe)
@Brian Doonthetoon
Success at last. Been roond the hooses twice but finally did it.
🙂
PS:
Rev says big new interesting article for a thread after: (00:01hrs)
Some old popcorn in the press. 🙂
Nice idea REV…but it’s English Imperialism we are dealing with here. Corbyn doesn’t want to lead anything except what he currently does now: a second division tory party with faux ‘socialist’ posturings..never mind a challenge like trying to sort out a post Brexit nightmare
The tories don’t want anything but a No deal, so that they can turn the UK into a dirty money repository unregulated by anybody except the City of London serviced by a near slave labour workforce with no welfare net. As Jimmy Airlie once described Thatcher’s vision ‘the Brazilianisation of Britain’ would be complete.
Anyone that believe’s a ScotREF2 would be permitted by the HOC before or after Brexit is deluded. Next stop after Brexit kicks in will be a ‘National Government’..but one of English Unionism which will shut down Holyrood, the Welsh Assembly and Stormont on the basis of cost and national unity.
The degenerate Mundell is currently overseeing a shadow scottish government being set up as we argue. The English nascent fascist state is preparing for civil disturbances in London , and possibly a couple of Northern cities. They are also prepared for problems in N.I and here in Scotland.
The template for this is Catalonia. Because no other State will interfere in what will be viewed as an ‘internal’ problem. Because despite what we would like to think, no-one recognises Scotland as an autonomous state. That can only occur if we appeal now to the EU and UN for recognition of our plight and sovereign status. In the present direction of travel i.e. prioritising the saving the UK’s status in the EU above Scotland’s destiny, this looks very unlikely.
Murdo Fraser: My Journey to YES
Ha ha ha. Good one.
A wee debate on the Tory “input” to the establishment of the Welsh Assembly on Jo Biased Coburn’s Politics Live programme.
Laura Kuensberg basically pointing out and agreeing with Stephen Bush (last thread) in that, “The Prime Minister is a lying idiot.”
@Cubby 7.09: I’m just being practical. Like you I want Scotland to stand up and say “The Treaty has been broken and we withdraw” but everyone else keeps telling us that that won’t work.
Re EU petition – I have just managed it but had to wait for two emails from the EU before I was offered the “Support the petition” button.
Sorry @7.07pm
“How one word can completely twist a statement”.
I would have hoped for more than one alternative idea, got to keep creative, ducking and dodging, to stay in the game.
Now, even if a referendum on the Brexit deal is unlikely, say there was, is there any reason a uk-wide referendum couldn’t be split so each nation had a different thing to vote for? I mean, Scotland is just going to vote overwhelmingly for EU membership again – opinion polls show no shift in that I believe – so what’s the point in asking us again? The brexiteers would like it – takes a chunk of remain votes out of the offering.
So, say they decide to ‘ask the people’ (hahaha) with a new referendum on whatever to do with EU deals or membership, I say Scotland, and Northern Ireland, has a valid case for saying their question should be on Scottish independence (border poll for NI) – it would not cost much more than the original referendum, it’s more relevant to our situation, our original EU vote is unlikely to change much (barring the threat of getting hit by an asteroid if we vote one way or the other) so is a bit of a waste, our votes make no difference to an English vote (whatever they decide will be what we get anyway), the English really get a chance to choose for themselves without our interference, the state machinery appear to be for Brexit (they need the money laundering regime I suspect) so less likely to object to an Indy ref that removes all our remain votes.
Then, if we are running an Indy campaign while they are running a Brexit campaign – well what a fascinating thing this would be – what would the MSM do, a definite split I’d say, we’d be left with just the Scottish elements, the security services, though I’m sure still active, would be run off their feet (those figures for postal voting turn-outs really need to be investigated! 99% turnout in a London borough in the EU ref? I believe that could even be impossible), but we would be very very unlikely to have the attention of English MPs – they should not be involved anyway – so lots of good points if this was feasible and we would not be ‘wasting taxpayers money’ or ‘being undemocratic’.
Maybe we should start really pushing for a new Brexit referendum, howling about how we want a Remain option. Then we could at the last minute compromise for the good of these islands family of nations hoorah all in it together.
Get creative, however absurd an idea, it can spark other ideas. There are many paths and many ways to follow a path, but you need to have outline plans, ideas, so you know when to take advantage. Maybe the SNP already had the referendum idea, that’s why they were supporting the people’s vote? Keep the options open.
Of course, there is the issue that opinion polls only show a majority for Yes IF Brexit goes ahead ,,, would we be able to convince a majority for Independence while Brexit was still in the balance? Would folks be able to handle that?
I don’t think a unity government will happen. The for the simple reason the English establishment wants to take power from Scotland, not give her more. I.M.O they are planning to dissolve the Scottish Parliament all along and brexit is their cover story for this.
I don’t see it happening. SLAB will tell Corbyn they’re not playing and invoke the No Confidence Vote of ’79 as their reason (strange how they were willing to work with the LibDems in Holyrood even though THEY were the ones in 79 to bin the Lib-Lab Pact)
Likewise the much touted figures of 3/4 of Labour members being against ANY form of cooperation in Brexit. That may or may not be true but that’s Labour MEMBERS, not Labour VOTERS. Members is a relatively small number whereas VOTERS is a massive number. I reckon that with the English and Welsh Labour vote there’s a fairly even split over Brexit support and then a majority for respecting the outcome of the referendum. Throughout the UK I think we would find the majority, by a long chalk, would wish to respect a vote they disagree with rather than see it, and democracy, overturned.
The way out, for Scotland, has to be via Independence, not through overturning the vote.
The National Government will never happen, whilst there MAY be single issues on which the parties MIGHT agree a course of action, I don’t ever foresee them holding that together for long enough to form any kind of a government.
It also depends on some Tories joining it, why would a politician do ANYTHING that would lead to them NOT being in the party of government? You might get ONE but not the dozen or so required.
The DUP will never go for it, will never join a vote of no confidence either. Whilst they will be willing to vote down the Brexit agreement as it is, they will never knowingly vote themselves out of influence at the heart of government (more’s the pity!)
The entire debacle shows how little politicians on all sides care about the people who vote them in. With the exception of SNP and The Greens they have all betrayed the voters and members of their own parties.
I predict that after the vote is lost then piecemeal arrangements will be made to avoid a ‘No Deal Brexit’ These arrangements will not be voted on under the agreement to have a ‘meaningful vote’ and therefore we will get whatever May wants.
Which leads me to another point. What exactly IS the deal on the table? I know that it doesn’t contain the future relationship with the EU, so what DOES it contain? Noticeably none of the news channels have actually explained (even bullet points) what this deal is! The avoidance of coverage on this is overly suspicious.
Reminds me of the avoidance of the coverage of the SNP tabling a no confidence vote. NB I complained about this and was initially fobbed off, I responded to that by asking why it wasn’t covered on the website (they’d avoided answering that point) I have yet to hear back, 26 days later and they are still not answering. Just the BBC acting like the BBC as usual!!
I did something new over the weekend, i enacted a news and print media blackout.
No tv news, no online news pages/sites visited, except one, Wings.
On wings, i clicked ZERO links.
And you know what, i heard NOTHING about current events, not a word about the SNP civil war 2, nor brexit, nothing.
It makes one thing clear, there are plenty others who are not listening to, nor seeking out the news stories we are so well versed in.
While this may not help our case, as they are also not seeking out pro Yes sites, they are also not being as influenced by unionist biased media outlets, as perhaps we give credit to.
A lot of the SNP/INDY bad, may be falling mostly on already biased unionists, and those who are not fussed about seeking information for themselves, are those people we can convince to back indy, by talking to them, one to one.
The best bit, if we are talking to them, and they do not normally read/listen to the media, our message is all they hear.
The old mantra of “if every indy supporter wins over one person each, we win” is so true.
I ended my blackout today, and to be honest, it was like white noise in the background, i actually found it hard to listen to it.
This all smacks of desperation. The SNP and the Yes lobby have yet to actually convince the majority of Scots that independence is THE rational, practical option. Even in the midst of the current Westminster cock up that majority still remains stolidly unmoved.That sadly is the stark reality. Playing footsy with other Westminster parties will not change that. High time the SNP and others returned to the nationalist basics, remember them?
This respectable nice guy ‘strategy’ has got us nowhere. Nearly three years of England’s ‘difficulty’ and zilch to show for it.
The SNP sometimes acts like a bunch of SAPs.
Is this all heading for one of those classic Scottish defeats? Cue plangent folk tune.
Bill McLean says:
14 January, 2019 at 6:42 pm
Petition not working for me either BD
I managed to sign (and share) a couple of hours ago, Bill and BDTT. It was a complex process, but it worked eventually. A few sweary words helped the process along. There was a link sent to my email which I had to confirm, after going through some hoops. Cant help wondering though, if the site has been tampered with? Sad to be so cynical nowadays about anything related to brexit/indy.
Worth trying again though?
Lochside, 7.23pm
You didn’t read the article, did you ?
@Ken500 6:45
London views stv as useful idiots – that’s why they’ve been allowed to keep their broadcasting licences and haven’t (yet) been swallowed up by itv London.
I’ve been kicking the idea around all afternoon but still can’t warm to it all.
I rather fear the skies might darken and the world might very quickly turn on the SNP; pilloried by Brexiteer headbangers in the South, pilloried by exasperated hardcore Anti-Brexit Indy supporters like myself, and with the SNP volunteering to put it’s head on the block in a BBC studio if Brexit turns disastrous, (which it will), the EDL takes its lead from Labour agitating strikes in Scotland to orchestrate civil unrest on English streets, and the UK Establishment suddenly find’s itself needing a convenient scapegoat to carry the can for wrecking the utopian fantasy Brexit and turning it into an economic catastrophe…
We would risk all of this, (and not least the actual body blow of Brexit itself), and all we’d get out of it in return is a Section 30 Agreement we don’t need anyway, some magic beans, and devolved immigration? Oh my, we’re easily pleased.
I’m all for constructive debate and brainstorming new ideas… Let’s keep it going…
How about a constructive dispassionate analysis of unilaterally revoking Article 50 as the sovereign prerogative? I’m absolutely serious. With a following breeze, there is time to make it happen.
The ECJ said revoking Article 50 was a sovereign prerogative of the UK, but the Claim of Right affirms it is the people of Scotland who are sovereign, not Westminster, and the sovereign prerogative of the Scottish people by solid democratic majority was to remain in Europe. So…. when you do the Constitutional arithmetic what answer do you come up with?
Scotland thus secures its own Internationally recognised Constitutional Backstop as watertight as Ireland’s, and while Scotland would still reserve the consensual right to remain part of the UK for an indefinite period, it could also choose to have a referendum at its leisure, or choose to put the Union out of it’s misery straight away. What Scotland will have actually secured through the ECJ’s timely intervention is the Constitutional VETO inside the United Kingdom Union which Scotland should properly have enjoyed from the outset 308 years ago. Furthermore, it wouldn’t only be a veto on Brexit either….
Please Joanna. Let’s put the 6 piece band back together, turn around and head back to the ECJ for a wee bit more clarity and elaboration on what they meant by “sovereign prerogative” relative to revoking Article 50…
Rev. teaser about a story for tomorrow could cause a Civil War on here… well a bigger one than the one the MSM is currently infatuated in promoting.
Petition supported.
By the way, I only believe the coalition should be agreed to if certain things are devolved (see previous post). As soon as there is any blacksliding, then SNP withdraw from the coalition.
Essexexile @7.13pm
Bang bang.
bbc politics live, lots of tories brexit and may type brexit, labour- we want a GE, Lib Dem, DUP and journalist.
Found a ANGLO SCOT pub owner in Hull (EX ARMY/ Police?) who is a brexiter. Thats if folks,
Something has to give and perhaps sooner than later.
We have been under orchestrated attack for months to destroy the SNP government, but in truth any government which would seek the abolition of the Union.
The media is full on SNP bad,enabled and assisted by Labour and the Unions who are trying desperately to create their own Caledonia “winter of discontent”. The pressure will increase as time goes on. People don’t stop to appreciate the mechanisms of being deprived. They point at the government.
Add to this our own frustration and the recipe is not good.
Nicola may not be ready to have an indy ref but she must at an absolute minimum indicate it is definitely on the cards.
She works for us and not for the benefit of the rest of the UK alone. We lack the mechanisms to fight negative media on a National level, but we do not lack a vision of a way forward which we can offer to the Scottish public, but it must be soon.
I believe in Nicola but I think her advisors, whoever they be, leave much to be desired.
wishful thinking at best
closer to horse shit
23 words to ALL above post and Joanne Cherry….. What about E.V.E.L.??????
OOPPSSS!! Above post should read 3 (three) words.
I’ve read a few posts criticising Peter Bell for being a fundamentalist.
He is not! He believes absolutely that the UK and Westminster are failed models. He is unwavering in his belief in Scotland as a nation. He speaks for me.
His opinions are based on what we all see. That Scotland gets shat on every day it stays in this bastard union. No good will ever come out of it for Scotland.
The SNP were given a mandate for independence in the exact circumstances we find ourselves in. The section 30 is now being used against the SNP. The section 30 is a tool of unionism. The tool of independence is the claim of right and the power of our parliament.
We just need the SNP to make the decision to strike. If they don’t do it after this Friday then they will just let Brexit happen.
not attractive, but the SNP should go full on Trump fake news on the MSM in Scotland and the UK.
Time to stand up.
Hey, abulhaq, the only desperation we can see, is emanating from you and your fellow British Nationalists.
It is very satisfying to watch.
Treeza is like a fish on the dockside, flopping around, gasping in panic, because she knows the SNP/Scotsgov have not played her games, by not making the fatal errors she so meticulously set out for them to make.
Provocation, threats, democratic subversion, all traps designed for the SNP to fall into, to force their hand so WM can see our intentions and have time to counter those plans.
Make no mistake here, it is OUR Scotsgov fustrating WM.
Scotsgov and the vast majority of the Yes campaign, have shown incredible iron discipline and resolve, in the face of extreme provocation by WM and their pet media, and in some cases, misplaced fustration from our own side.
While WM has been posturing, Scotsgov have been busy creating a maze of their own, leaving all routes WM now try to take, leading to indy.
One way or another, indy IS coming.
@ALANM
STV are not even a TV channel as such, outside the news I can’t think of one programme of any substance they make. They have not made a network programme for years. They are effectively just a ITV branch (it is the majority of their programmes) with a playout at PQ, that is if they still actually playout their own stuff (basically adverts).
But BBC Scotland is not a stand alone broadcast centre either, the output does not go to the transmitters but down to England where it is fed to the transmitters. Currently cut the connection with England and BBC Scotland TV goes off air.
@ahundredthidiot
Pray tell, which uk media outlet, exclusively anti indy bar one paper, will carry these SNP trumpesque fake news stories ?
Name 3 ?
@ Brian Doonthetoon
Martin Keating’s Petition signed twice in this hoose, no problems.
Interesting notion, but always worth repeating the immortal phrase:
power devolved (to Scotland) is power retained (by London).
What’s oh-so-graciously “given” can so very easily be snatched back on a whim, even against our clear will. (As starkingly revealed by the Brexit powergrab.)
Labour are no more trustworthy on that score than the Tories. Less so, in fact, since their party minions keep repeating, at every opportunity, the idiotic and mendacious proposition that to beat the Tories, they have to defeat the SNP in Scotland.
We are well past the point of voting for a party whose offer is merely better devolution. (We all saw how well that went down in 2017.)
We have to finally exorcise the living curse of mitigation, a thankless masochistic business if ever there was one.
Hi hackalumpoff.
The supporter count has gone up by 400 odds since I did my post at 6:11pm. I saw that the original link is being shared all over the place, Twitter and Facebook.
@Corrado Mella said at 3.41
‘Oh, and an iron fist in velvet glove to quash forthwith any attempt by neonazi far right fanatics to stir trouble.’
Lol
A truly facsist statement if ever I heard one.
Sounds like something Senor Rajoy might have said to Guardia Civil Barcelona section.
Has Nick Eardley been promoted to big BBC from regional office. Asking for a friend as he seems to have gone full Michael Gove.
@ Sheryl Hepworth who said :
14 January, 2019 at 8:11 pm
What about E.V.E.L.??????
Well said Sheryl.
That was exactly what I thought as soon as I read that proposal.
As well as “Perfidious Albion”, of course
And “Hasn’t the SNP a mandate to achieve Independence?
or has it changed to “Facilitate Brexit”?”
On the defeat of May’s deal; and once the dust have settled on whether there is another election – I’d agree a Peoples Vote is very unlikely – then the First Minister should ask for a Section 30.
I’d imagine this would be refused if May is still PM. (No idea what Corbyn would do.)
On the refusal, the SNP hold a consultative referendum anyway.
It does not matter if Unionists boycott it. What matters is the result. Even if the Unionists bus folk up from England or try and mess with postal votes I’d still expect a Yes victory.
Westminster is a complete laughing stock in the eyes of the world.
They couldn’t seriously ignore a Yes result when it is so obvious that Scotland does not want a No deal Brexit. The pressure from the international community on Westminster to either recognise the Yes result or re-run the referendum with a Section 30 order would be unbearable.
Of course, Westminster would not want to let the golden goose of Scotland go. Particularly in the expected financial disaster that Brexit will bring.
I would expect that they would then try a Section 30 Project Fear mark 2 referendum. Having already delivered a Yes vote in the consultative referendum and with the endorsement of the EU and other nations, another Yes vote will deliver independence.
COULD the SNP form a coalition tho? In order to be part of a national government EVEL would need repealed would it not? Otherwise SNP could not be part of an effective national govt.
BUT , EVEL is in itself an English law so SNP could not vote to repeal it could they? Leaving the remainder short of a majority.
“Theresa May has just attempted to blackmail the Commons MPs by saying vote for this or Scotland will choose Independence and Ireland will choose a border poll” @Dr Jim says 14 January, 2019 at 4:48 pm
I’m not a gambler but I’d be prepared to bet the farm that that is exactly what her private polling is telling her.
Yes must be a hell of a lot higher than 50% if he arse is nipping buttons at losing Scotlands natural resources.
Hi Jockanese Wind Talker at 9:04 pm.
You typed,
““Theresa May has just attempted to blackmail the Commons MPs by saying vote for this or Scotland will choose Independence and Ireland will choose a border poll” @Dr Jim says 14 January, 2019 at 4:48 pm
I’m not a gambler but I’d be prepared to bet the farm that that is exactly what her private polling is telling her.
Yes must be a hell of a lot higher than 50% if he arse is nipping buttons at losing Scotlands natural resources.”
Now that is a good point! It’s coming soon….
@Peter
No EVEL is not a law but a change, in my understanding, of the Westminster standing orders. It is up to the speaker to decide which bills come under EVEL. And the only thing they could not vote on, they can vote but it is a waste of time, is bills the speaker decides are England only.
Pretty likely that the standing orders could be abandoned if so desired for duration of that government. But if not then there could be an issue with some bills for England only.
Anyway this is never going to happen, voters in England would have kittens if they thought the Scots had any say in policy, look what it did for Ed Milliband.
OT
Today, via the internet I learned that Katie Grant is the niece of Sir Peregrine Worsthorne.
I read via the New Statesman over the weekend that old High Tory Sir Perry regrets that the Scots seem not to want to belong to England anymore.
Another small piece of the jigsaw falls into place.
As you were Jocks.
@JWT
She’s been threatening all sorts this last week if her deal is rejected and the prospect of Scots indy has only just been mentioned so I wouldn’t read too much into it poll wise.
Yes still nowhere near what it ought to be (last time we had one) considering the alternative. Should realistically be hoping for 60+% by now.
The fact that NS hasn’t requested a S30 tells us what her private polls are saying, ie too close to call.
If no deal is our confirmed destination by Friday that might give us the boost we need.
Fionan at 7.54. Finally managed to sign the petition – and the sweary words helped too! Over 1000 signtures now
Its easy.
Independence or brexit
@Chas says: 14 January, 2019 at 1:34 pm:
” … Perhaps better to field SNP candidates across England and Wales on a manifesto of remaining in Europe and dissolving the union to rid England of those pesky Scots who just want handouts. That gets near 50% of the voting public south of the border and a westminster landslide…”
As I read the article I knew the usual numpties would be out in force. The SNP will never stand candidates in England, Wales or Northern Ireland.
Neither does the SG, SNP or anyone else for that matter, need permission from anyone to hold a referendum. As for all the rest of that bullshit from several commenters. How many times must these myths be shot down in flames before some commenters here on Wings realise they are total mince?
Next some idiot will be wanting the SNP to accept seats in the House of Lords. Wake up folks these mythical ideas just are not ever going to happen.
@ jfngw at 8:16pm …….. “Currently cut the connection with England and BBC Scotland TV goes off air.”
Scissors anyone? Volunteers? Oops careful you don’t knock me over. Let’s have some order here. Get in line.
Geo…I did read it. I don’t buy it.
1291 signatures now!
If you read it, Lochside, you would know the Rev did not write the article.
Couldn’t have read it very closely huh ?
Petra @ 9.28
I’ll see your puny scissors and raise ye an Axe!!
I call her – Big Back Stop –
“…which would almost certainly hold the balance of power, the National Government would have to grant key new powers to the Scottish Parliament, such as control over immigration and the Section 30 powers to hold a new independence referendum.”
If the SNP were to be in that position and gain new powers the powers should be permanent by law and not taken back by Westminster at their choosing.
@Proud Cybernat says: 14 January, 2019 at 2:05 pm:
” … “Totally get what you’re saying, Mr Bell, but sometimes it’s easier to break something from within.”
Well at last a Winger talking common sense. It’s all a bit like doing the football pools – you are odds on NOT to win but you can’t win it if yer not in it.
EU petition signed (Thanks for the link Brian Doonthetoon).
Is there any way of getting this out internationally?
I know it says numbers don’t matter for it’s success,but it would certainly help counter a “ye won’t get back in” argument.
As Macart says… Another domino down!!!
Ian mackay@8.52pm
Why on earth would there be a re-run of an indyref Yes vote, held without a S30 ?
ANY referendum of the legally sovereign Scots people, produces a result which becomes the expressed will of said Sovereign Scots people.
If Unionists choose not to take part, that is their right, as sovereign scots, but make no mistake, LEGALLY, the result stands.
I would love a referendum where half the unionists do not use their No vote.
Lets hope they are talked into it by WM, as that would be fecking hilarious !!
@ Liz g …..”Axe called Big Back Stop.”
I”ll see your piddly, wee axe and raise a chainsaw. I’ll call him “Bigger Back Stop than yours”. So there!
Your deal now (or no deal)? Don’t forget no deal is better than a bad deal. Oh wait I’ve just changed my mind. No deal is a bad deal.
Geeo…I read the article..that’s the point. I don’t agree with the premise..National Gov with rebel tories and Labour ( and SNP etc) led by Corbyn giving concessions to us is fantasy..whoever wrote it.
Corbyn will not revoke Article 50 and alienate his Northern English Brexiteer voters.And all of this in the space of two weeks apparently.
To geeo / cubby, one and the same,
I see you haven’t taken your medicine today, get well soon.
Stay off the sauce too ,at least until after teatime.
Parallels between Scotland`s First Minister Nicola and Mary Queen of Scots ?
both hated by the Brutish establishment,
both betrayed by lickspittle Scots.
@Big Jock says: 14 January, 2019 at 2:23 pm:
” … What a stinking pile of horse manure.
We are stuck in Westminster by ourselves not by the system. We don’t need a section 30 , we just need someone with the balls to declare ourselves sovereign.”
No, Big Jock, we do not need, “Someone”, to declare ourselves sovereign. In the first place we are legally sovereign and have been so since the year 1320.
Many Scots have always declared ourselves sovereign, including William Wallace and Robert Bruce and that all came to nothing in the end.
What we need is a simple majority of the already legally sovereign people of Scotland to declare we are sovereign and then to tell the Sovereign Queen of England, and her delegated parliament, to sling their collective hooks.
The SNP should just let them all get on with it and when the whole thing is in chaos demand another referendum.
If Westminster refuses then this would i`m sure convert a lot of no`s and those who have been undecided.
Did really just read the phrase “good Tory MPs”?
The First Minister has already asked for a Section 30 order to be granted @Essexexile says 14 January, 2019 at 9:19 pm
That was at the end of March 2017 and Theresa May has yet to either decline or agree to this request (all she said was “now is not the time” before calling a snap GE she’d previously said she would not hold).
No official response has been received by the Scottish Government either way on this A30 request.
As for Joanna Cherry QCs idea of a Westminster Government of National Unity I personally think this is mischief making of the highest order with the aim of ‘spiking the guns’ of Westminster via “The Bain Principal” as the first act of a true British Nationalist Government of National Unity would be to impose a UK wide State of Emergency and shut down Holyrood to ensure Scotlands resources remain under Westminster control.
Without these rUK is a Third World Economy with a £2 Trillion (GBP) National Debt.
Never forget in 1707, when the Scottish parliament voted to dissolve itself and send representatives to the parliament in London, the Speaker of the English House of Commons exulted, “We have catch’d Scotland and will bind her fast.”
Westminster intends to keep Scotland bound fast and will use every means fair and foul to do so.
If you doubt this look at what is the main headline news in Scotland vs what should be.
O/T sort of but still Brexit
Article from online Guardian this evening about money – source unknown – being spent on pro-Brexit ads on Facebook. Seems to have been gathering pace in last week.
Someone taking a leaf out of the Leave play book?
link to archive.is
Dark money Mk II
“Independence or brexit” @Hamish100 says 14 January, 2019 at 9:20 pm
Don’t forget the other snappy one liner when speaking to BritNats or SoftNOs:
Brexit or The Union, you cant have both.
I too finally managed to sign the petition – number of supporters now 1456.
Media reporting that when May is defeated tomorrow, Corbyn will call vote of no confidence in Tory government and some of her ministers saying May will have to stand down.
Sky predicting ~400:200 defeat.
Exciting day tomorrow!
Rather than a government of National Unity, I think it’s more likely to be a very short term caretaker gov with a few specific objectives to push through.
Delay A50, call a GE, etc.. I can’t see it being charged with getting a different WIthdrawal Agreement. There is still no consensus for what type, if any, Brexit should be pursued.
link to facebook.com
Re petition
No matter which way I approach this I keep getting “Status: Not admissible”
Anyone else seeing that? Could it be an iPad thing?
Petition signed. No bother.
Jockanese Wind Talker at 10:01 pm.
“”
As for Joanna Cherry QCs idea of a Westminster Government of National Unity I personally think this is mischief making of the highest order with the aim of ‘spiking the guns’ of Westminster…””
I agree with you.
The suggestion of forming a National Government has been bubbling away in the background for some months being promoted by various academics and Unionist politicians.
It gathered pace in November 2018 when some prominent Tories seemed to be taking up the cause.
The danger for indyref2 was obvious if this became reality. People would wrap themselves in the wartime spirit, standing together etc etc. Under those circumstances the dangers for indyref2 – converting No voters – and for the Scottish Parliament – state of emergency – were all too real.
Ms Cherry by putting the SNP front and centre of the push for this and adding as a pre-condition all the goodies Scotland wants has effectively killed it off.
The Unionists would not agree to the demands of the SNP and neither Labour or Tories would want to be seen to be working with the SNP. Just think back to the 2015 General Election when it looked like the SNP might hold the balance of power and the respective reactions of Labour and Tories.
Ms Cherry has effectively reduced, if not stopped, the chances of a National Unity Government while appearing to support it. Nicely done.
To cubby / geeo…one and the same..
Still playing the Labour Party activist game eh pretending to be the SNP supporting socialist
Your cover has been broken you were recognised
You can’t add, check your numbers
Roll on Scottish independence
Oh! For God’s sake Wingers – screw the heid!
Ms Cherry is a very astute lady and she is right down to earth too.
What she says is perhaps not what she thinks. I look at her plan this way – As can amply be seen here on Wings the immediate gut reaction of Wingers is exactly what Ms Cherry calculated it would be – as is the likely reaction of British/English Nationalists.
Neither lot of nationalists, even with them being very different forms of nationalists, were ever going to accept the proposals. Thing is, Ms Cherry is banking upon that very fact with her proposals.
What it will do is convince a great many Britnat/Englanders that they want rid of the Scots and at the same time will bring on-board a large number of Scots switherers that independence is not just desirable but is essential and we don’t need a massive swing for Scottish Independence to have a solid majority ready to vote for Scottish Independence when Indyref2 is called.
The subtle bit is that by convincing the Britnats that the last thing in the World they want is for Scots MPs to be dictating Westminster’s happenings. Thus, when the push for indy starts the Westminster propaganda Machine has its hands tied from the forms of attacks they would otherwise have launched against Scottish Independence.
They might even openly campaign for Scotland to get out of, “Their”, English de facto Parliament. In fact there are clear signs that there is opposition on both sides of the border already evident as we can plainly see here on Wings.
Whatever else Joanna Cherry is it is not daft.
galamcennalath I am getting the same message, not an ipad thing although im on an ipad as i can sign the french petition for Scotland to retain the UK membership if we votefor Indy, only 154 supporters so far, search for Scotland.
@JWT.
You said this..
“Never forget in 1707, when the Scottish parliament voted to dissolve itself and send representatives to the parliament in London”.
………
Except, that never actually happened.
The old Scottish Parliament was never put into recess, due to Scots rioting in the streets over the dirty sell out by those running said Scots parly.
Instead, the parliament was ‘prorogued’.
…….
prorogue:
discontinue a session of (a parliament or other legislative assembly) without dissolving it.
………
There was no vote.
Petition
OK, I’ve got it. You log in and then have to find the right petition.
The correct one is 0701/2018 …. stick that code into the search box after logging and it takes you the correct petition.
Signed.
I have dipped in to TV debates and panels throughout the day on the forthcoming Brexit vote. While there has been frequent mention of the Labour, LibDems and DUP there has been no mention of the SNP either in terms of their likely non support nor in lists of which parties May has pissed off.
The simply do not exist, despite being the third largest party at Westminster.
I have seen no panel with an SNP representative.
A couple of times the government of national coalition idea was kicked around again with no mention of the SNP or Ms Cherry.
As a nation, we seem to have broken through the glass floor of the servility room and are now simply non existent.
@Liz g, Petra
Scissors, axe, chainsaw?
Pah! What we need is a fleet of bulldozers!
An interview on CH4 news tonight with a Dutch MEP who becomes clearly more exasperated as the interview progresses. Worth a look
link to channel4.com
Callachan the bigot says: “check your numbers”
Ok I will.
………
2016 Holyrood election.
Constituency seats available = 73
SNP Constituency seats won = 59
59/73 as a percentage: 59×73 multiplied by 100 = 80.82% (rounded up to 81%)
So far so good Callachan ? Good.
If ALL 129 Contituency seats were FPTP in 2016, we can use the ACTUAL 81% of SNP seats won to get a representative figure, again, by simple sums even YOU can understand.
Number of seats = 129.
81% of 129 is 81×129 Divided by 100 = 104.49 SNP seats (rounded down to 104) from 129 possible.
……..
So, callachan, which part of that is it, that you want me to “check my numbers” exactly ?
What % of 2016 Holyrood Constituency seats do YOU think the SNP won ?
Please enlighten us by all means, we love a good belly laugh on Wings.
Geeo@10.44pm
Correct. In fact a Brexiteer today asked the PM if she could prorogue Westminster HofC until I/4/19. so that nothing could be done to stop Brexit.
Albert Herring @ 10.49
Well me and Petra are very flexible… so Bulldozers it is Albert!!
Arghhh! Accidently hit STV on remote, who’s on but Paul Hutcheon. Watched about 30secs, it is the end of any indyref, the end of Sturgeon, he is the Soothsayer, the one from Up Pompeii.
“the constitution is reserved to Westminster”
Westminster keeps saying that and sadly we keep repeating it and prolonging the myth. This is what I cannot understand and never will. Every time I hear it being said by a Scottish citizen it makes my brain spin.
I would like to ask:
what exactly is Westminster?
What exactly is the Parliament of the UK?
What exactly is the constitution of the UK, who wrote it and where is it?
I ask because some people talks as if “Westminster” or the “Parliament of the UK” were separate entities completely independent and superior to Scotland.
Well, I wonder how can that be possible because from where I am standing they cannot be. Westminster or the UK parliament are not sovereign over Scotland. Scotland is sovereign over those two entities. Why? Because they are only legitimate for as long as Scotland decide they are. The moment Scotland decides they are not legitimate, then their perceived “sovereignty” and perceived “supremacy” over Scotland vanishes as virtual reality vanishes the moment you choose to unplug from the mains the contraption that is producing that “reality”.
We have a wonderful example in front of our eyes: the EU. The EU is a union the same as the UK is. The UK as a sovereign state entered the EU by means of a treaty, the same as Scotland, as a sovereign state entered the union with the kIngdom of England by a treaty.
Now, when the gov of the UK sought to run a referendum, did they actually ask permission to Brussels? Did they have to? Why not? Because by the same rule of thumb that the ENglish ruling elite is using with us, surely, “seeking independence from the EU after a treaty has been signed must be a reserved matter to Brussels”. But we did not see anything of the sort, did we? Neither we saw Brussels parroting soundbites like “now is not the time”. Neither we saw how the UK or the UK parliament was paralised in fear because they did not get a “section 30 order” from Brussels. No, they barged ahead. So why don’t we? What exactly is stopping us? Why do we keep giving the Kingdom of England legitimacy to deny us what is ours and to overrule our own mandate?
Didn’t the ECJ ruled that sovereign states that signed a treaty can unilaterally revoke it?
Well then, if what is keeping this “union” afloat is a Treaty of Union, and effectively that document is its constitution, how on earth can simultaneously “constitutional matters be reserved to Westminster” and being possible for Scotland to unilaterally dissolve the Treaty according to international law?
How can constitutional matters regarding to such treaty be reserved to Westminster but the constitutional matters of the EU regarding to the treaty signed by the UK in 1972 are not reserved to Brussels? Why the difference?
Scotland entered the union with one Act passed in the Parliament of Scotland. Surely it can leave the union in the exact same way and it is not for the Kingdom of England to decide otherwise or to steal sovereignty from the people of Scotland without their consent. What exactly did the UK need to leave the EU and to dissolve the treaty it signed? Why should Scotland leaving the UK be any different?
When somebody talks about constitution, Spain and its constitution immediately springs to my mind. Spain is a unitary state, a unitary country and every region in Spain was military annexed not “united by a treaty”. Spain has a constitution, that may not be perfect and may require modifications but it is a constitution that was democratically voted in by the citizens of Spain. It is also a constitution that is taught in Schools to all the Spanish children. It is a constitution that is freely available to everybody who has an interest on it.
where is “the UK” constitution?
where is it written?
When was it written?
Who wrote it?
Are the UK children taught this constitution? If not, why not?
Was this UK constitution voted democratically like the Spanish citizens did?
Apart from the Treaty of union, which was agreed by both partners, the kingdoms of Scotland and England, what other parts of the “constitution” of the UK were bilaterally agreed BY BOTH PARTNERS? And if both partners DID NOT agree to the amendments or additions to this “constitution” simultaneously, how on earth can you ever call it “a constitution of the UK” and not just the constitution of one of the partners?
Can you actually call something a constitution when both constituting parts do not agree or do not recognise it?
I have read the Treaty of Union many, many times and for the life of me I cannot see anywhere in that bloody document that is stated that Scotland is the property of “Westminster”, the property of the UK parliament or the property of the Kingdom of England. So why do we insist in being treated and accept that we are? Why do we insist in having to seek permission from entities that only exist because Scotland says so and that are fully controlled by our allegedly “equal” partner? Why are we playing this mouse and cat game? Why is Scotland not flexing its real muscles and re-establishing its real status in this “union”?
The way I see it the treaty of union 1707 was just that, an international treaty of union between two sovereign and independent states. Nowhere, NOWHERE, does it say in that Treaty of Union that such treaty is really an annexation of Scotland by the kingdom of England. So why on earth do we keep going on about “the constitution is reserved to Westminster” meaning England? How is that possible when Westminster (meaning the Kingdom of England) does not own Scotland?
If it is happening is because we allow them to get away with it.
And may I ask, who exactly decided that the constitution is reserved to Westminster and when?
We have to stop giving Westminster and the UK parl that “virtual supremacy”. If Scotland does not consent to something, then it is not longer a decision of “Westminster” or a decision of the “Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain”. Without Scotland’s agreement, it is not a UK agreement, but only a Kingdom of England agreement and therefore cannot be “constitutional”, unless we are not longer talking about “a union” and we are talking here about a dictatorship and therefore a unilateral decision of the Kingdom of England. If this is the case, why exactly don’t we say so loud and clear?
I hate to say this but our own Scot governments are helping this “virtual reality” of supremacy of the Kingdom of England over the Kingdom of Scotland by taking on the chin every time Westminster or the so called UK parliament shits on us instead of causing an uproar for all the world to see.
For instance, why was the ScotGov not immediately in the ECJ declaring the triggering of A50 by the England representatives ultra vires when it was done without the consent of Scotland? Didn’t the EU say that they would accept the triggering of A50 if it is done according to the constitutional requirements of the UK? Well then, where exactly are the constitutional requirements of Scotland fulfilled on this?
I was quite puzzled and disappointed to see that the Scottish politicians were giving priority to taking the case of unilaterally revoking A50 to the ECJ but they did not fight what I think is far more important:
the fact that the triggering of A50 may have taken place unconstitutionally and should be void because it was done without the consent of Scotland. I was disappointed because asking for the revoking of A50 means assuming that A50 was triggered legitimately and constitutionally, which I do not know how it can be the case when Scotland, a constituent part of the UK, did not give its consent. Why do our Scottish politicians keep playing by the Kingdom of England’s rules?
Next is the continuity bill and those powers that Westminster stole from us. The people of Scotland voted in 2014 for a status quo that included those powers as devolved. This means that the people of Scotland has not given Westminster consent to siphon those powers back from us. I do not care what that English court says, the reality here is that England’s government, England’s section of the parliament and England’s supreme court have unilaterally decried as “constitutional” the theft of 24 devolved powers for which the sovereign people of Scotland did not give consent to be moved away from Holyrood. How can that be constitutional if it has been done without the consent of one of the constituting parts of the UK?
The next is all the promises made in 2014:
Cameron said that Scotland would become the most devolved nation in the world – well, the civil service is devolved in NI but not in Scotland, and every region in Spain has broadcasting devolved, so what is Westminster waiting for to devolve those matters to Scotland? Cameron’s promises like Brown’s Devo Max or the vow with the permanence of Holyrood and its independence from Westminster in devolved matters were part of that status quo the people of Scotland voted for in 2014, so frankly, Westminster and the UK parliament are here in borrowed time with regards to all those powers that are keeping for themselves. As it is, they do not have consent from the people of Scotland to hold them because those powers were offered as part o the status quo the people of Scotland voted for.
Westminster claims that “constitutional matters are reserved” because it has never actually asked the people of Scotland if they agree with that or not and if they consent to that or not. If you are not prepared for certain answer, is best not to ask the question and this is indeed the tactic Westminter is currently using to retain those powers. When you look at the polls that seem to indicate that a majority of Scots say Holyrood and not Westminster should have the right to decide on holding a fresh referendum on independence this result supports the idea that the people of Scotland actually does not agree with the premise that “constitutional matters are reserved”.
If I have to be honest, I much rather our SNP MPs stopped wasting precious time with England’s people’s vote and with the nonsense of “national governments” when we all know it is a pie in the sky that will end up in tears. I much rather see those MPs concentrated exclusively in Scotland’s matters, which is what they were elected for. The people’s vote and this “national government” thing does not do it for me. It seems to be prolonging the nonsense of an unequal union and the abuse Scotland is being subjected to rather than dealing with it. For goodness sake, these SnP MPs cannot possibly be that naive to think that labour and tories will ever facilitate an independence referendum, so what are they playing at? It sends shivers down my spine that some of those SNP Mps may be prepared to work with the very same individuals that vote to steal our powers, to trigger A50 without our consent, to deny us a brexit veto, to undermine the devolution settlement, that attempted to declare our continuity bill illegitimate retrospectively and that forced Scotland to vote as if it was England’s region. SNP MPs should be fighting to remove Scotland from this failing union instead of working for what looks like keeping Scotland (and its assets) even more anchored in this union.
@Roguecoder @therev
thanks for this, it is the most interesting thread for ages. it has generated real dialogue,
@berthanpete joanna cherry is reaching out to our target demographic, ie. no voting remainers (the 55%). only 2 weeks ago, the unionist msm and mundell were claiming we support a no deal hard brexit cos that would bring about indtref2! this fox is being well and truly shot in the minds of the voters of scotland.
fwiw, i dont think it will happen
Terence Callachan@10.38pm
Get the brasso out Terry old boy because like all lying Britnats you polish your brassneck about this time every night.
Just to recap:
1. You lied about the number of English in Scotland. You have been asked on many occasions to say where the figure came from. No reply from Terry old boy.
2. You lied about some jackanory made up story that I am a labour activitist. Your story was questioned. No answer from Terry old boy.
3. You lied I threatened you. I asked you to say where and when. No reply from Terry old boy.
4. You conveniently cannot tell the difference between a fact and an opinion. Facilitates your lying Terry old boy.
5. Now you are lying again. Don’t know Geeo but I do know he doesn’t post a lot of lies like you.
In summary, Terry old boy you have no credibility. You are a liar. Your posts should come with a health warning – Britnat liar.
If you were a genuine independence supporter you wouldn’t post all your lies and embarrassing crap on Wings.
Fnally got hat bloody eu petition signed , must have tried a dozen times,!!!
Capella – apologies.
I must read back my posts before hitting send – I was, of course, referring to SARAH Smith ( tho to be fair it printed as SataH Smith)
Help I have a laptop that does freudian slips on its own!
jfngw I watched all of the interview of Paul Hutcheon he’s bought ah load of Edinburgh Crystal Baws ( rejects ) Stv just as bad as Bbc it only can get worser lol .
@Legerwood 10:36pm
“Ms Cherry has effectively reduced, if not stopped, the chances of a National Unity Government while appearing to support it. Nicely done.”
I am in wholehearted agreement with your analysis. Always a good idea to look both ways before you cross the road.
@Robert Peffers 10:42pm
“Ms Cherry is a very astute lady and she is right down to earth too.
What she says is perhaps not what she thinks. I look at her plan this way – As can amply be seen here on Wings the immediate gut reaction of Wingers is exactly what Ms Cherry calculated it would be – as is the likely reaction of British/English Nationalists.
Neither lot of nationalists, even with them being very different forms of nationalists, were ever going to accept the proposals. Thing is, Ms Cherry is banking upon that very fact with her proposals.”
I hadn’t gotten to your post before responding to Ledgerwood so no surprise that I am in wholehearted agreement with your analysis too.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
A ‘Rainbow Coalition is a good idea, for starters between the SNP and the Greens. The SNP should offer the Greens responsibility for grass roots matters, entitled something like Scottish Co-operations incorporating the Green’s basic belief in ‘Small is Beautiful'(capitalism/socialism have obviously had their day, especially with robotics on the horizon).
For the next election current Labour/Tory seats should be tackled by the party with the best chance of winning( performance last time). The manifesto should be particularly attractive to socialist types; nationalisation of railways, waters etc. with the hope of further dessimating the Red Tories
Lets give folk something concrete to support
Don’t Panic!
The front pages of the Express and Mail are particularly good 🙂
link to bbc.co.uk
Can’t be archived.
While this seems a sensible approach,I feel I cannot trust either Tories or Labour or LibDems.
The Liberal Democrats paid for their time in the sun by losing many seats to the Tories they helped.Those voters probably thinking they might as well have a real Tory than pretend ones.Everybody that works with the Tories pays a heavy price eventually,everyone.
I refer all to the BetterTogether members and how each of them have lost ground to the very party they enabled. Much as I want rid of the Tories,working with them will only lead to another decade of trying to whittle down another Tory majority.
It took 18 years last time.
No other suggestions, though. 🙂
RE: The EU petition. Please ensure you put “Petition number: 0701/2018” into the search bar to make sure it is the correct petition you are signing.
Also, this petition is open anyone worldwide. The drop down box on the right asking your nationality includes all recognised countries of the world.
It allowed me to sign as an Australian so get the message out to your friends and family abroad, the more who sign the more media attention it will attract. The figure was over 1800 when I last looked.
Lest we forget, the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon in particular has always stated that they/she would never form any kind of deal with the Tories. As others above have pointed out, Joanna isn’t stupid.
—————–
That channel 4 interview was like watching a stupid ill informed arsehole barking at an intelligent human.
Who do these so called journalists barking at MEP’s think they are? It’s a total disgrace that this level of engagement passes for political analysis and only reveals the UK and its lackeys in the press as one of the most stupidest ignorant and arrogant states on this planet.
All Brexit does time and again is confirm to the rest of the world what we have always known: what a bunch of arseholes looks like close up.
@Maria F says: 14 January, 2019 at 11:14 pm@
@” … “the constitution is reserved to Westminster”
Westminster keeps saying that and sadly we keep repeating it and prolonging the myth. This is what I cannot understand and never will. Every time I hear it being said by a Scottish citizen it makes my brain spin.
I would like to ask:
what exactly is Westminster?
What exactly is the Parliament of the UK?
What exactly is the constitution of the UK, who wrote it and where is it?”
Well! Maria F, I did not read your long comment because I did not need to as the bit above has precise answers that negate everything else in your argument.
Westminster is legally, “Her Majesty’s Parliament of Her Majesty’s United Kingdom”, and the head of that Parliament, (in spite of what is generally believed), is called, “Her Majesty’s prime Minister. This title was originally meant as an derogatory title.
The title, “Prime Minister”, was originally used as a derogatory term for the Monarchy’s minister in the House of Commons. Now remember that, “The English Glorious Revolution”, was the Parliamentarians revolting against the, God Given, absolute sovereignty of the Monarch. The general rule of Law throughout Christendom was then, “The Divine Right of Kings”.
However, note that The Declaration Of Arbroath, 1320, (accepted by the Holy Roman See), set Scotland apart from that Rule of Law of the rest of Christendom in that the declaration, apart from declaring Scotland an independent kingdom, also declared that the people of Scotland, not the crown, are sovereign.
So in the Westminster Parliament of the Kingdom of England, “The Glorious Revolution”, first of all deposed the Monarch of the English Kingdom that they was also the non-sovereign monarch of Scots but, in 1688 the two kingdoms were still independent. The, so called, Union of the Crowns of 1603 was only a personal united Kingdom for the actual monarch. There was no actual United Kingdom until the 1706/7 Treaty of Union.
So when the English skipped over all the Roman Catholic claimants to the English throne and invited Mary of Orange to become their monarch, Mary at first refuse the English, Welsh and Irish Crowns as she did not wish her husband, Billy, to become her consort.
At this the English Parliamentary rebels invited the two to become joint monarchs and Mary accepted. However, there were two anomalies that, to this day, have been taught in schools as false history.
First being that as Westminster had deposed the rightful monarch of England they claimed it also deposed him as King of Scots – but the still independent Scottish Parliament did not depose the King of Scots and that kicked of the Jacobite uprisings that England still claims today to have been a rebellion but you cannot rebel against a monarch not your own. The Jacobites fought for their rightful King of Scots who, since 1320, was not sovereign. Westminster was still slaughtering Jacobites at Culloden nearly 40 years after the Treaty of Union was signed in 1706/7.
So now we get to the Treaty of Union. You ask, “Where is the United Kingdom’s Written Constitution”, and what, “Constituted”, the United Kingdom was without doubt, “The Treaty of Union”.
The Treaty of Union is undoubtedly the Written Constitution of the United Kingdom and it united only two independent kingdoms as one united kingdom. It did not create a single unified country or it would have been called, “The United Country”.
Nether did it unite four individual countries for, in 1706/7 the Kingdom of England was comprised of three countries and two of them have no signatories or royal seals on the Treaty of Union/
So there are your answers – Westminster is legally the two partner United Kingdom Parliament and is not a single country.
Neither is it the de facto parliament of the country of England that runs England directly via the Westminster Ministries but devolves powers of the country of England to three unequal. (both to England and to each other), subservient dominion countries.
Devolution is directly in contravention of the Treaty of Union that without doubt lays down the written constitution of the United Kingdom.
The clincher is, of course, that the two signatory kingdoms of the Treaty of Union must be legally equally sovereign partners in order to be legally empowered to make and sign the Treaty of Union in the first place.
Yet today Westminster runs only England directly using English Law and thus can only be illegally devolving a few English powers to her only legal partner in the united kingdom and has illegally split the actual two partner united kingdom as a quadratic union of four countries of which three parts of the kingdom of England and only Scotland is an actual equally sovereign partner kingdom.
Damn, just posted a comment on the Lemonade post and the whole post’s been pulled by Stuey as it wasn’t supposed to be up yet. And it is truly SOOPERB. 🙂
Wonder when it’ll reappear?
T Jenny ah posted it on Yes pages now its error 404
Aye what happened to the new fantasy political party thread
It posted before Stu wanted it to, so he pulled it. 🙁
Canny wait for it to reappear. 🙂
TJenny says:
15 January, 2019 at 1:14 am
“Damn, just posted a comment on the Lemonade post and the whole post’s been pulled by Stuey as it wasn’t supposed to be up yet. And it is truly SOOPERB.”
Yes, it was great, although very much at odds with the denial of an SNP civil war by numerous posters here.
The Rev. Stuart Campbell (14th January – “How to make lemonade”):
“and if this site is to be as honest as with its readers as it always is, we must note that the current leadership has made a monumental pig’s breakfast of dealing with the situation”
“Nor is there a great deal of point in examining the motivations and actions which culminated in the First Minister inexplicably giving her strong public backing to Leslie Evans”
“It was difficult not to contrast the unqualified support of Evans, who DID do something badly wrong, with the treatment given to the entirely-innocent Michelle Thomson.”
“Even the Times, no friend of Alex Salmond, demanded her sacking.”
Today i will be mostly wearing my
“don’t blame me i voted YES” t-shirt.
@ Thepnr @ Robert Peffers.
Yep, totally agree, the very astute Ms Cherry is flying a kite. Comments have been very interesting though.
I trust that the Rev. Stuart Campbell has not been threatened or intimidated by anyone.
Rock (14th January – “How to make lemonade”):
“If there is anyone who can bring independence to Scotland before 2640 AD, it is Alex Salmond and the Rev. Stuart Campbell”
Rock (13th June 2014 – “To the editor of the Scotsman”):
“What hurts them most is your daily exposure of their lies without mincing your words. Remain focused on that job – you are performing brilliantly – don’t get distracted.
Remember that you are now the 2nd biggest threat to the Establishment and they will do everything in their power to get you.
My advice to you would be to move to Iceland – NOW – and carry on your work from there.”
From WOS tl ‘WordPress fuckup, wasn’t meant to be published yet.’
Does this make the 45 (that number again!) of us who commented on The Lemonade post, The Secret Lemonade Wossers?
TJenny says:
15 January, 2019 at 1:53 am
“From WOS tl ‘WordPress fuckup, wasn’t meant to be published yet.’”
Strange, it was a complete post, with the following ending:
“Seen in that light, the desperation of the media to nail Salmond now is thrown into perspective. But at half a decade younger than Jeremy Corbyn, we suspect the story of the man who could fairly claim to be the most successful and notable Scottish politician of all time might not be over yet.”
For the sake of Scotland, I hope the Rev. Stuart Campbell and Alex Salmond are safe and sound.
“The British Establishment has ZERO fear of Nicola but it is terrified of Alex Salmond.”
And the Rev. Stuart Campbell, may I add.
Re lemonade…I thought I’d imagined it! Then I got a bit paranoid…glad none are the case! I like lemonade!! Not keen on the Cherry flavour…how could it ever work EVEL has the lies of 2014 been lost as a distant memory!
When, or if the “Lemonade” post is reposted I’m sure it will create a monumental shift in the political debating circles at least in Scotland if not the whole of the UK.
Has anyone considered the seven seats that Sinn Fein hold? What if they were to return to parliament?
Cherry – I think that’s just Joanna being mischievious which probably gave Slab and Tories a fit of the screaming ab dabs,
Did you not like the other suggestion though? But maybe we shouldn’t talk about the content ’til Stu reposts. (fear of hammers) 😉
Maybe the big man has been on the phone to Rev Stu already, asking him for whatever reason to hold fire for now. 🙂
We live in interesting times. 🙂
Inspired by Cherry, that was groovy, yep just gauging public reaction / opinion as well… Yeah, suggest it to em and get Corbyn to refuse it publicly, all bases covered.
Did anybuddy hear David Clegg on LBC earlier, at about 2:30am with the anti-Scottish presenter Darren Adam, whit a pair of knobs.
Yes! Some bubbly for the mornin’, ah’ll get the glasses ready. 😉
link to youtube.com
Flutes for later.
Sorry Tjenny was catching up on the posts of today…I need to get a life lol! About the national unity gov, I wondered long about it, knowing how SNP policies are made from the ground up and it just made me very uncomfortable. So let’s hope other folks aren’t as gullible as me. Seeing it as a red herring it does make complete sense. Maybe coz it was coming from Joanna that made me wobble who knows, but good to know it won’t even see the light of day. I like my “lemonade” with plenty vodka! Signed the Martin Keatings petition was at 1950 votes, need to keep sharing it, needs as many people signing let the world know we need them to sign too!
Dedication to Cherry, Joanna Cherry and and all cherie’s out there X:
link to youtube.com
Today is gonna go down in history!
It’s 2019, HOLD tight!!!
Thx Cactus ? hope you enjoyed the Fuzzy Wuzzy bear poem!
Just because:
link to youtube.com
Giggity.
Mornin’ Cherry, aye merci for the poem, made me feel warm & chirpy, if only aye could fly like hehe 😉
BREAKING… Street parties are forming across the land in keen anticipation of the
BrUKexit vote later today. SBN’s are bedecked in their finest fleggery ready to celebrate!Oh glory be! What a day it’s going to be.
Any guesses on the numbers for Yes / No / Abstain votes cast?
XXX / XXX / X
Sarah Smith still at it on the radio this morning saying absolutely NO WAY that Nicola Sturgeon could possibly call for Indy ref now given the open war between her and Alex.
Unfortunately, her co-presenter this morning, on BBC R4, was the rancid Mr. He-never-answered-my-question-Robinson and you could tell he is particularly relishing the latest Establishment attempt at taking back control.
It would be useful if there was a clear piece from someone that gives clarity to the Sturgeon/Salmond situation that can then be used to demonstrate the truth.
Mud sticks unless it is washed away.
Great B movie on today, Village Of The Dammed…
parliament tv.
They are working on something more important than gossip.
Sarah Smith and Nick Robinson are habitual liars. Agents of the British which is collapsing around their ears. The nonsense parroted to anyone with no sense and ignorant. To anyone who listens or watches. Beyond contempt. Just a couple of arrogant ignoramouses as their world collapses around them. Their partrons on their way out soon. The Labour/unionist collapse in Scotland. The SNP support will increase with support for Independence, No one will vote for the Westminster unionist shamble. No one could make a bigger mess.
Get rid of the Labour. Take the fight to the Tories. The SNP will win. Independence. The British Press is lying again. What a bunch of creeps as bad as their ignorant masters. Agents of the British State totally useless. Their time is running out. The collapse awaits of the British State. The state of it, Getting the eldrrly to vote for them, So they can kill them off.
link to gov.scot
link to breastcancernow.org
Sign and share, it’s easy to join. Just confirm membership once you receive email and then support Martin’s petition Code number 0701/2018
link to new-direction.scot
Prof John has lots of articles on his blog
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
Theresa May accepts her Deal will do 6% damage to the UK economy and No Deal 8% – she told me so mad week …. This translates to many job losses and companies bust #context 2008 crash was 2% damage to the economy.
link to twitter.com
link to barrheadboy.com
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
link to indyscotnews.com
The UK Government promised £13.8m to a ferry company with no ferries but there’s not a single penny for running a ferry from Scotland –
link to twitter.com
Europe will give Sturgeon time to build a new Scotland, so it can take the place of the UK in Brussels. As a newspaper story about the offer (from 2017) resurfaces.
Also resurfacing today is a Telegraph article stating that the UK could struggle to survive Brexit without Scottish oil to leverage new trade deals.
link to facebook.com
MoD records 789 nuclear safety events at Scotland’s bases
link to archive.is
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.com
Heard James O’brien say the other day he won’t appear
on a panel show that did’nt use a fact checker.
Most politicians would’nt appear on a show that does.
Maybe most politicians should be banned from political
discussion.
The Genie in the bottle!
link to twitter.com
link to arcofprosperity.org
link to tompride.wordpress.com
A thread on what will be required from a legal perspective if there is an extension of the Article 50 period.
link to twitter.com
On the eve of the critical Brexit vote, the Government is accused of “sneaking out” changes to pensioner benefits that could cost mixed aged older couples more than £7000 a year. The DWP announcement was published around 7:20 tonight
Link to gov.uk here
link to twitter.com
link to benefitsinthefuture.com
link to thisismoney.co.uk
link to thecanary.co
Here’s a thread on the Tusk Juncker letter:
link to twitter.com
link to theneweuropean.co.uk
Conspiracy-theory-lies-this-is-all-may-has-to-offer
link to archive.is
‘The Orange State is gone and it’s not coming back’ says McDonald on 100th anniversary of First Dail
link to archive.is
Robert Peffers says:
15 January, 2019 at 12:55 am
Thank you for sharing your knowledge, Robert, much appreciated. While I agree with all what you say, there are still some unanswered questions for me.
“Westminster is legally, “Her Majesty’s Parliament of Her Majesty’s United Kingdom”
If the Monarch is just Queen of the Scots and not Queen of Scotland, how it can be “legal” that Westminster is “Her Majesty’S Parliament of He Majesty’S United Kingdom”?
“The Treaty of Union is undoubtedly the Written Constitution of the United Kingdom and it united only two independent kingdoms as one united kingdom”
I agree 100% and that is the crux of my argument. Perhaps I have not put it across clearly and I apologise for it. But if the Treaty of Union is the actual written constitution of the UK, then it cannot be reserved to Westminster. If Scotland can unilaterally dissolve that treaty, then it cannot be reserved to Westminster. One act passed in the parliament of Scotland is what made Scotland enter into a union with the Kingdom of England. An act from the Parliament of Scotland is what will take to unilaterally dissolve that treaty, no matter how much Westminster huffs and puffs. The Parliament of Scotland is where the legitimate, democratically elected representatives of Scotland are. If Westminster dares to dissolve the Parliament of Scotland, then Scotland’s Parliament will be represented by our 59 MPs.
While in any other country the constitution is proudly displayed and taught in schools, not in the UK, why not? Is it not something to be proud of?
If there are any more elements to the constitution of the UK than the Treaty of Union 1707, unless those elements have been agreed by the 2 constituent parts of the UK, then they cannot be considered “constitutional of the UK”. If they are only agreed by one of the 2 kingdoms then they are only constitutional for that particular kingdom and they cannot be forced upon the other. Westminster does not own Scotland. I consider the theft of the 24 devolved powers, the bulldozing of the devolution settlement voted by the people of Scotland in 2014 as status quo and the triggering of A50 without Scotland’s consent unconstitutional.
If I am not mistaken, the ECJ ruled that sovereign countries can unilaterally dissolve treaties. Well then, that resolution clashes with the mantra we are being force-fed with that “Constitutional matters are reserved to Westminster”.
Here we most agree that it is the people of Scotland as a collective who holds the sovereignty of Scotland, not the monarch, not Westminster. Therefore it is the people of Scotland who ultimately decides which Scottish powers are reserved and which ones are not. The only time when they could not decide is if Scotland had been annexed. There is nothing in the Treaty of Union that indicates so. If any treaty of union is an excuse to annex territory, then the UK would be now the property of the Parliament of the EU and the “constitutional matter” of leaving the EU would be reserved to Brussels so the UK could not unilaterally vote to leave. But we didn’t see anything of the sort, did we? So why are we to believe that the situation for Scotland is any different?
The people of Scotland voted in 2014 under the premise that Scotland would become the most devolved nation in the world and also would achieve Devo Max. We also voted on the premise of the vow: Holyrood permanency and its independence from Westminster in Devolved matters. What this means to me is that Westminster is currently holding as its own a whole bunch of powers the people of Scotland has voted to come back to Scotland. We cannot be the most devolved nation in the world for as long as a smaller nation than us in the UK has more devolution than we do. We cannot be the most devolved nation in the world for as long as regions in Spain have had devolved broadcasting for close to 3 decades and we don’t have it even today. The way I see it Westminster is holding many of OUR powers in borrowed time.
Then we have the sticker of what the people of Scotland thinks about “constitutional matters being reserved to Westminster”. You could ask, who exactly decided that and when? Because the last poll conducted in Scotland indicated that a majority of those that took part in the poll actually thought that Holyrood should have the right to decide on holding a fresh referendum on independence. This to me means that the people of Scotland does not agree with Westminster in that “constitutional matters are reserved to Westminster”.
“So there are your answers – Westminster is legally the two partner United Kingdom Parliament and is not a single country”
I know, but if I asked what Westminster is, is because it is often treated as if it is some kind of independent entity that somehow “owns” Scotland. How on earth can that be the case if Westminster only holds legitimacy for as long as Scotland decides it does?
“Neither is it the de facto parliament of the country of England that runs England directly via the Westminster Ministries but devolves powers of the country of England to three unequal”
The powers “devolved” to Scotland are not “powers of the country of England”. They are Scotland’s powers. What we are seeing is not the kingdom of England devolving its own powers. What we see is the kingdom of England “devolving” some of the powers it stole from us first.
“Devolution is directly in contravention of the Treaty of Union”
I agree. Devolution would not be in contravention of that treaty if England had reconvened its own parliament and had parity with Scotland in level of devolution and it it was not using the UK parliament as if it was its own.
“The Treaty of Union is undoubtedly the Written Constitution of the United Kingdom”
Again, if the Treaty of union is the written constitution of the united kingdom as I think it is, then constitutional matters cannot be reserved to Westminster because the sovereign people of Scotland can dissolve that treaty unilaterally.
Obscure pro-Brexit group spends tens of thousands on Facebook ads
link to archive.is
Hi everybody, say “hello” to sections 19 and 22 of the Civil Contingencies Act 2004, which define “emergency” and the scope of emergency regulations:
link to twitter.com
link to thecanary.co
On the final day of #MeaningfulVote debate for @theSNP I’ll be challenging the Attorney General on legal status of yesterday’s #EU #backstop assurances & calling out @theresa_may on her staggering ignorance of the state of #Scottish public opinion on #Brexit
link to twitter.com
Sarah Smith is just a slavering imbecile. They make their living by telling lies. The state of Kirsty’s shoes. Another havering imbecile. Labour through and through as biased as hell. They have sold Scotland down the swanny for money for years. They have no shame. Money for nothing. Overpaid and over rated. £3.7Billion for that rubbish when people are being starved. Lying sychophants. Most of them should be in jail.
Today, is like most days in the so called United Kingdom, all about England. Those who keep our country in colonial thrall to our dysfunctional neighbour deserve no quarter.
link to randompublicjournal.com
link to eureporter.co
link to rte.ie
German left leaning paper’s verdict on Corbyn
Use translate function
In addition to the intolerable incompetence and irresponsibility of the Tories, it is the Labor Party that embodies both the disintegration of political culture and the lack of principles.
link to sueddeutsche.de
My “Lemonade” post was the most erudite piece of prose of modern times and i would have expected Pullitzer Prize at least.Now I will never know.
BTW AS is innocent. NS is a brilliant leader . I was mentioned in dispatches in the SNP Civil War and a Voice came to me in the night declaring that the wejght of Unionist lies increases in the inverse square of the likelyhood of indy in 2019.
Have a nice day y’all.
If there’s a No Deal Brexit, there is no transition period, and it seems rather doubtful the UK will cough up the £38 billion it owes Europe, which in turn means the freshly Brexited UK will very quickly default to a rogue nation status which doesn’t pay its bills. That’s before we even get near the Good Friday Agreement registered with the UN.
I read a quip a while ago,.. an Irish journalist I think, who said in Brexit, the UK was the first country in history to impose international sanctions upon itself. That’s very poignant and true…. but it won’t be the only game of sanctions played.
Brexit is shooting yourself in the foot as you blow your brains out,” Old Irish saying.
Nana, I particularly liked Barrhead Boy’s masterly summary of the last forty years of Tory privatisation and spivvery (all unreversed by New Labour) in your 8.10 batch of links.
Of course, instead of calling for the jailing of the bankers and the crooks, most people in England unaccountably blamed the EU for their economic woes instead of Thatcher’s barrow boys and kleptocrats. That’s the power of the tabloid press, all owned by tax-avoiding millionaires.
Here is something we need to sign up to ( from Wings twitter feed)
link to new-direction.scot
Morning Tinto.
I could get carried away if I start ranting about New Labour. I am trying to remain relatively calm today.
Not sure if this has already been posted, no harm putting it out again.
link to caltonjock.com
this
link to thenational.scot
and how the bbc chose to report it
link to twitter.com
I see that now prof Sir John Curtice is claiming the Salmond row is worst SNP crisis for 40 years years’.
As he isn’t a member of the part, what the hell does
a pollster like him know about the SNP?
@Jockanese Wind Talker says: 14 January, 2019 at 10:01 pm:
” … The First Minister has already asked for a Section 30 order to be granted @Essexexile says 14 January, 2019 at 9:19 pm
That was at the end of March 2017 and Theresa May has yet to either decline or agree to this request (all she said was “now is not the time” before calling a snap GE she’d previously said she would not hold).”
You are making a good point, Jockanese Wind Talker but the terms you use are very revealing. You say , “The First Minister has already asked for a Section 30 order to be granted. … “
However, the Section 30 Order is NOT granted by Westminster – it is agreed between the Westminster and the Holyrood governments.
… No official response has been received by the Scottish Government either way on this A30 request.”
Yes there has, it was/is that, “Now is not the time”.
What this shows is the common mental acceptance by the average Scot, (and the vast majority of the people of the three country Kingdom of England), that Westminster sovereignty just naturally transcends and overrules the undeniable and long established legal sovereignty of the people of Scotland’s sovereignty.
A legal sovereignty historically established by the then international authority in the year 1320. A Rule of Law that is still the main basis of the still independent Scottish Rule of Law till this very day. It had in fact been in force for 387 years before the Treaty of Union created a new. two partner, united kingdom named, believe it or not, “The United Kingdom”.
… As for Joanna Cherry QCs idea of a Westminster Government of National Unity I personally think this is mischief making of the highest order with the aim of ‘spiking the guns’ of Westminster via “The Bain Principal” as the first act of a true British Nationalist Government of National Unity would be to impose a UK wide State of Emergency and shut down Holyrood to ensure Scotlands resources remain under Westminster control.
Without these rUK is a Third World Economy with a £2 Trillion (GBP) National Debt.”
Now there is yet another wrong, but generally accepted by most Scots, bit of Westminster brainwashing propaganda.
There can legally be no such thing in a two partner Union as an rUnion remaining when one partner chooses to end that union.
You cannot have a remaining union with only one party in it. The Treaty of Union has only two signatory members – Westminster simply reverts to, “The Status Quo Ante£, of being the same three country Kingdom of England that signed the treaty of Union with only the Kingdom of Scotland. Wales & Ireland were long established parts of the Kingdom of England in 1706/7.
In fact it is, as is Nicola’s request for a Section 20 Order, much, much more than just mischief making.
It is laying down the eventual basis of the case that must eventually arrive at the international courts when the two governments eventually reach a stalemate and face each other in neutral courts of law.
… Never forget in 1707, when the Scottish parliament voted to dissolve itself and send representatives to the parliament in London, the Speaker of the English House of Commons exulted, “We have catch’d Scotland and will bind her fast.”
Who is forgetting, Jockanese Wind Talker?
Certainly not either Nicola or Joanne Cherry. Both of these very astute, legally trained, ladies have been playing the long game since ever they decided to leave the legal profession and get into politics.
They are laying the legal groundwork for the final acts of Scottish independence in the international courts. A process they have already begun while the Westminster Establishment is just a wee bit distracted by events in the House of Commons and the infighting with their withdrawal from the European Union.
… Westminster intends to keep Scotland bound fast and will use every means fair and foul to do so.
If you doubt this look at what is the main headline news in Scotland vs what should be.”
I’ve never doubted that fact since I first took an interest in United Kingdom political history due to my schooldays interests in Scottish history and that interest goes back to the late 1930s during WWII.
The biased Pollsters who use the Polls to manipulate the vote. The usual BBC bias. Agents of the British State getting titles for failure. Always getting it wrong.
The Polling asdociation has been censored and fined many times. Dark money, illegal funding, breaking the Data act. Being used by crooks to manipulate the markets for remuneration. Illegal dealing. Supporting illegal activity. Professional liars. Getting away with fraud. Unscrupulous manipulator. Most of them should be in jail. Embezzling taxpayers monies. To line their pockets.
‘MNG Entrrprises a newspaper owner controlled by Alden Global Capital has made a listed hostile take over bid for Newsquest listed parent company Gannett. The company behind USA Today.
A Hedge Fund known for deep cost cutting in pursuit of profits from struggling local media.’ Herald.
Famous 15 I think the Rev got his ams/pms mixed up re More Lemonade post , keep your ein peeled for after 1pm today after Tereza has done PMQs , there will be a lot of MPs with the heads down looking at their moby’s LoL .
C mon the Rev .
A 19th century treatise on the threat of Home Rule for Ireland. Thankfully in the 21st century there is the UN, international courts of justice, established universal human rights that provide other reference points for any country seeking its rightful autonomy. It is healthier all round in a modern democracy to unburden oneself from the shackles of historic wrongs and not repeat them.
‘My aim is to criticise from a purely English point of view the policy of Home Rule, or the proposal to create a more or less independent Parliament in Ireland… any system of Home Rule, whatever be the form it takes, is less beneficial to Great Britain, or (to use popular language) to England, than is the maintenance of the Union, and is at least as much opposed to the vital interests of England as would be the national independence of Ireland…Ireland is a poor country of about the population of Belgium ; it is occupied by a people far less wealthy than the inhabitants of England; and, moreover, by a people divided among themselves by marked differences of race, religion, and historical tradition… Money constitutes now more truly than ever the sinews of war, and it will be a long time before Ireland is a country abounding in money’
link to archive.org
History is not on the side of the Empire 2.0. Empire 1.0 had a tainted history of draconian powers of arrest without warrant, detention, censorship, deportation and exclusion to suppress and brutalise- not lead. It’s quite the list (but not exhaustive) down the centuries;
Coercion Acts ‘An Act for the More Effective Suppression of Local Disturbances and Dangerous Associations in Ireland of 1833’
Morant Bay insurrection Jamaica 1865
Easter Uprising Dublin 1916
Jallianwala Bagh Massacre at Amritsar 1919
Suppression of disorder Egypt 1919
Insurrection Mesopotamia 1920 –villages bombed and villagers machine gunned
Burmese rebellion 1931 rebels hanged, deported
Defence of India Act 1939 – invoked to imprison Ghandi, Nehru – 18000 detention orders, 763 shot dead (true figure much higher)
Final days of the Palestine Mandate
Moplah rebellion 1921
Malaya insurrection 1948-1960
Cyprus Insurrection 1955-1959 – tortures, executions, detention in concentration camps.
Greece takes allegations of atrocities to Strasbourg:APPLICATION No. 176/56 Government of the Kingdom of Greece against Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland http://hudoc.echr.coe.int
Kenya Insurrection 1952-1960, Kikuyu ‘Mau Mau’ Land and Freedom movement. 77000 detained without trial, capital punishment and public executions
The genie has been out of the bottle for some time. Scotland -a nation a waiting – Nemine Contradicente!
@Robert Peffers to JWT’s post.
Does the fact that the S30 was sought before GE 2017 mean it’s still an open request or does it need requesting again when a new (if re-elected) administration is in place?
Too technical for me. Any idea RP?
@ronnie
Is PMQs not tomorrow rather than today ? I do agree on the MP’s heads down thing. Talk about a backfire eh. Vote SNP !
Internal surveying shows that around 11% of UK civil servants experience sexual harrassment or bullying every year.
Although most do not put in official complaints it still ammounts to hundreds of complaints each year.
Only a tiny percentage of those complaints progress to official investigation.
The vast majority, >90%, of those investigated are judged unfounded.
Complainant and complainee identities are strictly protected throughout.
Contrast and compare.
Hypocrisy of the highest order.
Thanks for the links Nana. Delighted to read Tasmina has been officially cleared as expected. She was another who was branded by the media unjustly, along with Michelle Thomson.
Orchestrated witch hunt. You bet. It is going to continue in the future.
@Les Wilson 09:16am
Couldn’t agree more about the importance of signing Martin Keatings petition Les. Have just signed it and hope that it will really take off.
How to patronise the Jocks:
Hello BBC here is that the Press in Scotland how’s that manufactured spat in the SNP going are you doing enough damage
Oh yes there can’t possibly be a referendum on Indpendence now because eh, well eh, well because we say so and we’ll keep sayin it so people will believe that we think
Well done to you on that then, in England we’ll keep calling the UK *a country* and *our country* just to keep it in folks heads, Yeh yeh yeh we know it’s not but you know how gullible people are when you keep repeating something over and over, they end up believing it
Roll up roll up Brexit was a UK wide vote and the whole *country* got a vote (what does that even mean)
For those who may have missed the references to Martin Keating’s EU Parliament petition above:
A petition has been organised to the European Parliament requesting the European Parliament’s support should Scotland choose to become independent from the UK before the conclusion of the negotiations on its withdrawal from the EU, in order to defend Scotland’s right to continue to be a member of the European Union and renegotiate independent membership in accordance with Article 48 of the Treaty on European Union.
Set up an account, confirm by email, search for the petition by Martin Keatings and sign it!
ALL CURRENT EU CITIZENS ARE ELIGIBLE TO SIGN
link to petiport.secure.europarl.europa.eu
Let’s share the hell out of this on social media. The mroe noise Scotland makes in Europe at the moment the better.
You don’t have to search to find the petition. I posted yesterday,
Brian Doonthetoon says:
14 January, 2019 at 6:11 pm
O/T, I guess…
Just picked this up from Paula Rose’s Twitter page.
link to new-direction.scot
I then followed up a wee bit later with,
Brian Doonthetoon says:
14 January, 2019 at 7:01 pm
Hi galamcennalath et al.
I created my account, following the instructions at the link I posted.
A tad convoluted but I was able to support the petition, using the link in the link I posted. This is that link (“Click to Support” in the ‘new-direction.scot’ link):-
link to petiport.secure.europarl.europa.eu
Both the required links – to register then support the petition – are at the ‘new-direction.scot’ link in my 6:11pm post.
Correction there @scotsrenewables. Anyone is eligible to sign it. That is, it is not limited to EU citizens.
EU Parliament petition
Now at 2707
That`s 2500 overnight – lets get this moving on up
Robert
Do the Acts of Union 1800 in relation to Ireland, have any significance with respect to the 1707 treaty?
I had a look at the text and was quite interested to see one of the headings in the preamble, below;
[1.] The Parliaments of England and Ireland have agreed upon the articles following:
And whereas, in furtherance of the said resolution, both Houses of the said two Parliaments respectively have likewise agreed upon certain Articles for effectuating and establishing the said purposes, in the tenor following:
The parliaments of England………………….
Be interested in your thoughts.
Regards
To phronesis ….clever post ,very interesting and shocking to see detailed information like that.Im sure our ancestors and others around the world never got the chance to document the terrible treatment they experienced under the iron rod of England’s Westminster
Thanks for the links Nana.
Great news about Tasmina.
…”The first day of the hearing saw a dramatic turn of events, however, when it was revealed at the outset that the Law Society and legal representatives of the two solicitors had agreed a joint minute clearing both lawyers of any dishonesty or impropriety.”….
Tasmina who was hounded by Unionist politicians and the MSM.
…”Newspaper reports in the run up to her unsuccessful election campaign in Ochil and South Perthshire in the 2017 general election suggested that Ahmed-Sheikh was being investigated for financial impropriety, but the tribunal heard yesterday that there had been none.”
link to thenational.scot
……………………………………………………….
Meanwhile the BBC is still reporting, of course, in their usual biased way, as is the Daily Record, the Herald, the Scotsman, the Courier, Daily Mail, the Times etc.
‘Ex-MP showed ‘disregard for rules’ over law firm finances.’
link to bbc.co.uk
Just waiting for their front page / online headlines stating:- ”TASMINA AHMED-SHEIKH CLEARED.”
………………………………………………………………
Nicola supporting Tasmina.
‘Election 2017: Sturgeon backs Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh over Law Society probe.’
link to bbc.co.uk
I hope the latest post Making Lemonade is a comment on the non-existent civil war in the snp.
Yet another smear campaign is found to be wrong about Tasmina. We will have to suffer many more and they will become more sophisticated – we have been warned. This is not new neither is it over.
@BDTT
Seeing as how it’s you I signed, oitherwise I wouldn’t!
How Big T must detest Joanna Cherry QC, SNP MP!
She, Joanna, gives them all a showing up for the absolute lying, dunderheads that they are.
Joanna Cherry: ”The PM refuses to answer my question because she knows I’m right. Today’s assurances on #backstop cannot legally trump the provisions of the #WithdrawalAgreement . So nothing has changed since she pulled the #MeaningfulVote last month.”
link to twitter.com
Hi yesindyref2.
I only provided the link – Martin Keating’s the guy behind it!
Gerry ma mistook I meant today , that would set the tongues wagging by the chitteraty at westminster .
Posted this elsewhere the other day, but OMG the bullshit on today’s front pages and news media…
I haven’t been commenting much recently. Just content to lurk and enjoy the read. Get some distance and perspective. Chill.
The party politics of the UK and the mass media. Oh lordy what a mess! Where to start? They know that they lie, that they misrepresent, obfuscate, quote out of context. They know that they troll and undermine to cause maximum disruption. They must also see that this practice of politics has brought us to the place we are in today. This isn’t conspiracy theory. It’s representative of historical fact and public record. It’s not even a matter of debate. It’s what they do.
Yet they do it anyway. Why? What does it take? What kind of human being do you have to be to cause so much harm to others? How cynical, uncaring and callous?
For the life of me, I still don’t understand it (hopefully never will). How anyone can do and say the things they do. How they can cause so much hurt and be so ideologically driven by their party politics or personal greed that they place their own population/readerships/viewers in harms way for personal advantage. Is it the big chair? The bottom line kerching? Is that it? Win at all costs. Any cost? My tribe right … or wrong.
When the UK is stated by the UN as legislating against major demographics of its own population and our system of politics and elements of our media support this injustice. What does that say about our electorate? That majorities were convinced into voting against their better natures, or even against their own interests and well being? The bastards doing this were put there by a voting public made to believe and accept … basically any old thing. When was it ok for us to accept that causing pain and distress to our friends, neighbours, communities were good things?
The argument of course, being that we don’t have to believe. That we don’t have to vote for. That it’s all on our choices as a population. Which is, y’know, true to a point. The point being their control of both the political system and their saturation of the media. Their control of both the choices available and the narrative you’re fed.
Thing is. The false choice statements aren’t a get out of jail free card. Surely not this time round? We’re looking at the real world ramifications of manipulating populations right this very moment in the UK. Real hardships. Real injustices. Real heartache. Real anger and frustrations. Very real economic, political and societal breakdown.
Politics as it is practised. The dirty game. Is it worth it? The win that is. Do they even give a shit what they’ve done and are continuing to do to people? Certainly they don’t seem overly bothered about their idea of a day job.
If anything should convince people that this needs to change, then the past five years political carnage really, REALLY, should be a heads up.
We can be better than this you know. All you have to do is want it badly enough.
Aye! Auntie wie a kilt not willing to admit (good BBC word admit) that Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh has been cleared of any charges.
How many is that now that have had their political career trashed by the MSM. Maybe their website story will be updated sooooon? 🙂
PS:
Revs much vaunted new article been delayed due to the Brexit deluge. 🙁
PS:
Radio 5 Brexit fest been on all morning no Scottish voices have I heard yet but lots of implied casual xenophobia from people like Unionist politicians. Nasty Europeans how dare they!
Found, registered and signed the petition. 2874 supporters
Big T, the lying, dictatorial hypocrite, seems to be totally against the rerun of Referendums, such as in relation to Scottish Independence and the EU, however she’s all for it when it suits her agenda …. comes up that humph of hers.
And take note folks it looks as though she’s mighty keen on abolishing Assemblies … and Parliaments too, no doubt.
Iain MacWhirter:-”Not only did Theresa May vote against the setting up of the Welsh Assembly after devolution, as late as 2005, the Conservative Manifesto pledged a repeat referendum to abolish it. Yes – a second referendum.”
link to twitter.com
@Essexexile says: 15 January, 2019 at 10:37 am:
” … Does the fact that the S30 was sought before GE 2017 mean it’s still an open request or does it need requesting again when a new (if re-elected) administration is in place?
Too technical for me. Any idea RP?”
Quite simply there is a whole lorry load of false claims about this subject and all of them are based upon a quite wrong idea of what sovereignty is.
The concept of sovereignty began with the strongest person in the community taking command by sheer force or by sheer cunning. There are no Gods – not a single human has ever been able to prove there is. Gods are nothing more than a belief system but that was the first concept of sovereignty. A person who claimed they were God’s chosen one to lead.
Sovereignty is neither a God given gift nor is it an actual legally given right. Sovereignty is taken and held by those who can enforce it. In days gone by the concept of, “Divine Right of Kings”, became the Rule of Law and that was the basis for Kings, Queens, Emperors or whatever and that began the hereditary concept of sovereignty and that is still the, slightly amended, Rule of Law of The Kingdom of England.
In 1688 the Parliament of the three country Kingdom of England revolted against their rightful monarch and deposed him. They then skipped over all Roman Catholic claimants and chose the Protestant Mary of Orange to be Queen of England – but Mary turned them down because she did not want her Husband, William of Orange, to be her consort.
The English Parliament then offered the English. Welsh and Irish crowns to the couple as joint monarchs and the Kingdom of England was officially ruled by them as joint, legally sovereign, monarchs. With a couple of important conditions.
The first being that they had to legally, under English law, delegate their sovereign powers to the Parliament of the Kingdom of England and that made the Kingdom of England a, “Constitutional Monarchy”.
Thing is that in 1688 the Kingdom of England monarch they had deposed was also still the independent monarch of Scots but the English parliament claimed that they had sovereignty over the still independent Kingdom of Scotland where the Rule of Law had been that the Monarch was NOT sovereign because the people of Scotland were legally sovereign and that was accepted by the then international authority of the Holy Roman See.
Thus began what England still claims as, “The Jacobite Rebellion”, but the Jacobites could not be rebelling against the King/Queen of England because the two Kingdoms were still independent in 1688. So there was no legal basis of the English Crown/Parliament having legal sovereignty over the Scots. Which was why they engineered the Darien Expeditions and the subsequent Treaty of Union.
Yet the Treaty of Union factually states that neither the Monarchy of England nor the Westminster Parliament has sovereignty over the people of Scotland and the still independent Scots Rule of Law still has the people as being legally sovereign.
So you are probably asking, What has all that got to do with a Section 30 Order? Quite simply there is no legal basis under either legal system for referendums to need any permissions from anyone as referendums, in the absence of prior agreement, are only advisory.
As indeed was the one under debate in the Westminster Parliament today. However, the current Westminster government has established a precedent and they claim that it is legally enforceable and they must legally do what the, “British”, public voted for.
The truth is no one needs anyone’s permission to hold a referendum nor does any government need to legally abide by its result – unless by prior agreement – and that is what the section 30 order is a prior agreement to abide by the result.
As to legal sovereignty – there really is no such thing for no matter the circumstances the people are ultimately sovereign as no one can be sovereign over them without their compliance and that is a natural law – not a statutory law.
To geeo / cubby…one and the same…you can’t fool us we know who you are
a Scottish Labour activist of many years standing.
OK it’s tempting to say you are stupid but I’m going to be polite even though you don’t deserve it with your insulting aggressive threatening behaviour that unfortunately many on this site have had to endure.
My post said that about 70% of the MP,s voted into office in Holyrood and Westminster by the people of Scotland are SNP and that in my opinion that is enough to declare Scottish independence or have a referendum.
Your post said that i am wrong and that it is 81% and not 70%
but it is you who are wrong
on the sauce again and probably not taken your tablets I reckon
Or maybe you just don’t read things properly
you only calculated the percentage of MP,s voted into Holyrood
you didn’t include those voted into Westminster which is I believe 35 out of 59
which I reckon is 59% or thereabouts
Add 81 to 59 and you get 140
Divide 140 by two and you get 70%
Scottish Labour activists like yourself are well known for their arithmetical errors
I feel sorry for you
Roll on Scottish independence
Hey geeo / cubby
Just to assist you ,here is the time the original post was made so you can check the facts
Scottish Labour are known for avoiding ,misconstruing and ignoring with facts so I won’t be surprised if we don’t hear from you again
14th january 2019 at 4.11pm
What a strange night. I heard a wee bird cheeping so I looked through the dark window and there was not a breath of wind, except maybe the wind of change, but I could swear I saw a kite flying. I woke up and it was gone. Maybe it was just a dream.
Petition to EU signed. Over 2700 signatures for this and in addition lots of signaturesto other similar petitions about Scotland.
Tcallachan dribbled this..
“If we just look at the MP,s VOTED into holyrood and Westminster
70% of them are SNP”
……..
Actually, you show more incompetence as you are adding 2 PERCENTAGES together to form a new percentage.
By eliminating List MSP’s, you are skewing the figures and making your final figure meaningless.
What you want to do, to find an average of SNP seats over the 2 parliaments, is to add the total Scottish seats (129+59=188) and count the SNP seats won (63+35=98)
That gives an actual average of 52% NOT 70%.
……..
HOWEVER, if you read my 1st response to you, i started it with this…
”
geeo says:
14 January, 2019 at 4:56 pm
Actually callachan, constituency MSP’s, IF THATS WHAT YOU MEAN BY VOTED for, are 81% SNP.
………
Now you are saying that is NOT what you meant at all, but you are still posting utter nonsense as shown above.
Oh, by the way, your whole Cubby/geeo labour activist thing, is classic troll deflection tactics.
If you can find a SINGLE QUOTE from me over ALL the YEARS i have posted on wings, which remotely could be seen as supportive of labour, post it here for all to see.
Want to bet £1000 you can’t ?
Best you stick to your anti english bigoted hatred, it is all you are good at.
Debate starting in HoC:
link to parliamentlive.tv
TM is a dictator.
If correct, which seems likely, the PM will ignore a huge defeat, a fractious party, and the need to work cross-party on international agreements, for an ‘I know best’ approach that would only achieve cementing her position as the worst PM in modern history.
link to twitter.com
@Capella
Don’t know if I could stand 6 hours of drivel before the voting starts. But thanks for the heads up any way 🙂
RP @12.15.
Thank you. Top drawer reply. Should be pinned for future reference imo.
Interesting, put in those terms it seems like a no brainer
I am like you Thepnr, I lasted 6 minutes then had to switch off.
Geoffrey Cox, Attorney General and Lord Melchett stunt double, theatrically rambling about the 45 years of legal integration which have been subject to very complex, and difficult for us plebs to understand, negotiation in order to arrive at May’s 500 page deal…
Strange. I seem to remember cutting observations of Michel Barnier from atop his pile of Brexit dossiers, risk assessments, and briefing notes it took a team of four people just to carry, looking down upon David Davis who’d turned up to negotiate Brexit with a ball of string, a used bus ticket and 23p in his pocket, and began his negotiations by claiming that the dog had eaten his
homeworkBrexit impact assessments.Back on topic.
I’ve read Out of the Quagmire three times now and I still cannot agree with it.
The reason is simple.
NEVER TRUST THE TORIES…….and I don’t care whether they are blue, red or yellow.
I would urge the SNP to steer well clear of the lot of them.
Brexit, while causing damage to Scotland is still, fundamentally, an English fight.
Scotland has made it clear we wish to continue in the EU (as did NI) but England (and Wales) wish to leave.
Let them go to hell in a wheelbarrow of their own making, we will organise our own, better transport arrangements.
terrific news about Tasmina – so pleased for her but disgusted at yet another stalwart whose reputation they are trying to destroy.
So she’s able to stand if there was to be another GE – and if she does stand this part of the story cannot be ignored.
Given the current climate it is beginning to look like there is some sort of concerted effort to get anyone associated with the SNP and trash their good name.
How much is this costing the Establishment!
Meg Merrilees
Yet on checking the BBC on line headlines it says “9 minutes ago – Tasmina M-S found guilty of professional misconduct.”
I am confused but that is probably BBC policy.
She should sue.
@Nana 1.11
Pretty much. How and ever ‘she’ll be listening very carefully to what people say’. 🙄
Warning for the herald
link to twitter.com
MSM is now desperate, they are now trying to paint a picture that an independence referendum is impossible while the Salmond/Sturgeon nonsense is happening.
As if this had any bearing on Scotland’s position within the EU and Scotland’s remain vote. Apparently we now will just have to accept Brexit because.. well because they have been instructed to push this line.
There aim is to try and remove Salmond and Sturgeon from the upcoming campaign, they will go to any ends to achieve this. It does expose that Labour and Tories at Holyrood are pretty much Westminster voice there, willing to accept Brexit no matter what Scotland votes for.
I’m not sure the Scottish public, outside the hardened Britnat contingent, will fall for this diversion.
@Macart, stop making me laugh!
Dictators don’t do ‘listening’ and TM is forging her path to dictatorship. We had better get the hell out and soon.
Ha! Big Brian with the pink tie telling us in a hushed voice with shaky head, that it’s bad, very bad for the SNP and it could drag on for weeks… and weeks…and..
Good old auntie wie a kilt. 🙂
@Nana
I’d suspect something major is about to give right soon now. There’s going to be no hiding parliamentary collapse and a failure of politics after tonight. A fudged plan b in a few days or can kicking to revisit the same vote in a few weeks? It makes no difference.
Parliament will have failed to deliver a safe Brexit for the populations of the UK. 6% or 8% contraction will make no difference either. ANY further economic contraction on top of the austerity legislation the UK is already struggling under will be catastrophic for vast swathes of the populations within the union. No amount of spin. No amount of media control or narrative, will be able to hide or deflect from the effects either.
An awful lot of people are going to feel a great deal of distress and hardship, and they’re not going to be too happy about it.
English Civil War#2?
link to theguardian.com
Scotland was dragged into the first one and got the Dictator Cromwell, we do not want a repetition. As the UK displays all the symptoms of a failing state, the SNP must proclaim loud and very clear that Brexit is England’s existential problem not Scotland’s. Its leadership must have the courage to distance us from the turbulence to come and put independence boldly back at the top of the agenda.
No more mind games by Westminster rules.
England is not and never has been our friend, if you believe the contrary then Scottish history is patently not your forte.
How is it anti English by not allowing them a vote on the future. of Scotland who wants to leave England these people who live in Scotland but are not Scottish have no right to decide Scotland’s future and for those of you who tell Mr Callachan his numbers are wrong prove your numbers are right it is on the record that in the ref.,1 that 80per cent of Incomers voted no thus defeating the votes of the true Scots and that is recorded facts not supposition
“England is not and never has been our friend, if you believe the contrary then Scottish history is patently not your forte.”
————————————————————-
England isn’t anybodys friend England doesn’t have any friends
Thepnr said at 12:08 am:
” Don’t Panic!
The front pages of the Express and Mail are particularly good ? ”
The Full Front Page of the England edition of the Daily Mail screams,” TIME TO PUT YOUR COUNTRY FIRST “.
Here in Scotland we’ll certainly do that.
Many thanks to the owners of the Daily Mail. [smile].
Re: the EU petition being mooted.
Here is a direct link to the petition, on bottom right, is the link to register before voting.
link to archive.is
Lot easier than trying to navigate from scratch.
Hope this helps.
Macart @ 12.06 pm
Now THAT is a letter that could be sent to every newspaper in the land …
And especially to EVERY MP and MSP!
Some won’t to need to squirm, and we know who they are =)
@Nana
“Dictators don’t do ‘listening’ and TM is forging her path to dictatorship”
I think that path has long been laid down by the uber cabal. Long before she was PM. That’s why she must hang on to the PM-ship come what may. The backups, Herr Flick and Mr Blobby, are just too panto-esque, even for the ultra right wing media to sell.
Very powerful speech from Ian Blackford and mostly accompanied by silence and reasonable behaviour from the opposition
That’s a change
Absolute stormer of a speech from Ian Blackford in HoC just now. No hints or veiled threats about going for Independence but a direct challenge that if Brexit is not delayed the SNP will call IndyRef2. Unfortunately I don’t know how to link to it but hopefully someone on here can.
Euro Parli petition signed. Easy!
Need more popcorn.
@GrahamB
Not sure if this is all of Ian’s speech as I did not see it
video here
link to twitter.com
chicmac @ 2.53pm
Excellent post, we do not even have to think about who might be “Herr Flick” and who might be “Mr Blobby.”
Too obvious, chapeau Sir.
To geeo / cubby…..
I take it back that I should not call you an idiot
You are in fact a drivelling idiot
Clearly incompetent you don’t read properly
MP,s voted into office by the people of Scotland means exactly that thicko
It doesn’t include LIST MP,s
Who are not voted into office by the people of Scotland
You missed that point in my original post because you are a drivelling fool hell bent on insulting people who have a different point of view to your own so you don’t read things properly before responding in your customary nasty way
Well sometimes you have to play hard ball with those such as you
So here I am giving you the sort of reply in the language you like to use
Dumb ass
If you read my post properly which I have repeated for you already so you could read it again
you will see that I clearly said that the number of MP,s voted into office in Holyrood and Westminster by the people of Scotland was 70%
Yes two percentages added together
The only way you can get a correct figure that excludes LIST MP,s who are NOT voted into office by the people of Scotland
One percentage calculation to get the 81% figure for Holyrood ,required because of course the people of Scotland didn’t vote the so called LIST MP,s into office
And a second percentage of 59% which is the percentage reached from 35 out of 59 MP,s to Westminster.
To get an average of those two
You have to add them
Then halve them
Thick as two short planks is being kind to you
Typical Scottish Labour activist your cover has been blown so I have no issue with showing you up for the scoundrel and plonker that you are
Roll on Scottish independence
Thanks Nana at 1503, that’s about 30 seconds of it. Gives a flavour but hopefully the whole speech will become availabe soon as it is well worth watching throughout.
@chicmac
“The backups, Herr Flick and Mr Blobby”,/i>
Hahaha a cracker as they say 🙂
@GrahamB
Not sure if this is all of Ian’s speech as I did not see it
video here
—————————————————–
link to parliamentlive.tv
and you can see who has already spoken in the RH side bar and click on to see and hear it all.
@Macart
People are pretty angry right now as well as scared. Personally I’m terrified. As you say something has got to give.
@chicmac sometimes pictures are not required 🙂
You can get the parliament tv webcast running and then scroll down the index to find Ian Blackford’s speech at 14:37:03
link to parliamentlive.tv
@ Thepnr – just come up for air. That’s 2 hrs so far. But at least I got the ironing done so not a complete waste of time.
Besides Ian Blackford’s speech, which was excellent, Ken Clarke told them how impossible it will be to get any trade deals with US. Said with feeling.
“There is no way that the people of Scotland will be dragged out of the EU against their will”.
YYYYEEEEEESSSSSSS!
At last.
I can now stand full square behind Ian Blackford.
To geeo / cubby…one and the same
Are you always this stupid , or is today a special occasion ?
Brains aren’t everything ,in fact in your case theyre nothing
Be careful okay, don’t let your brains get to your head dumbass
What’s your job, spreading ignorance ?
You lost in thought again. Unfamiliar territory for you isn’t it
I know you’re not as stupid as you sound though ,nobody could be that stupid
I reckon you have an inferiority complex and have to say it is fully justified
You being a longtime Scottish Labour activist taught you one useful thing though, tell lies all the time and the British media will protect you , not here though , too many decent wingers ready to pull you up for it.
you are part of the Scottish Labour Kakistocracy but as worthless as a throttlebottom just like the rest of your Labour chums
Roll on Scottish independence
Call me dave and Petra BBC reporting that Tasmina has ben found guilty of professional misconduct
link to bbc.co.uk
confused!
@Capella
Have had it on in the background and paid attention to much of Ken Clarke’s speech and also all of Ian Blackford’s which was excellent.
No heckling from the Tories, or at least very little, I reckon they all know he was right so are too embarrassed to heckle now.
@Meg merrilees
I see that the usual suspects are reporting it as we expected them to. I’m waiting to hear what she has to say.
I don’t twitter so I suppose the feedback will break there first.
Just watched Mr Blackford’s speech…..
… He didn’t beat about the bush. 🙂
@meg merrilees
Because there was two judgements, the major one about financial impropriety was effectively dismissed (dropped it would seem). This is the story the MSM were pushing some time back.
There was another judgement today regarding the handling of the account and the misunderstanding about the trust fund being a client. They have found that they should have known this fact so they found them guilty of professional misconduct, I suspect this is either fine or a slap on the wrists, I don’t know enough about the legal profession to really comment.
The MSM will go big on this finding and put the major charge they were hoping for somewhere at the bottom of the article, if they include that part at all.
@ Breeks says at 3:28 pm ….. ”“There is no way that the people of Scotland will be dragged out of the EU against their will”.
YYYYEEEEEESSSSSSS!
At last. I can now stand full square behind Ian Blackford.”
Hah, ha, ha! Thank God. Brilliant.
@ Meg merrilees says at 3:32 pm …. ”Call me dave and Petra BBC reporting that Tasmina has been found guilty of professional misconduct.”
link to bbc.co.uk
confused!
I see that Meg and yet they say, ‘Ms Bain said: “It has been accepted entirely by the Law Society that there is no suggestion at all of dishonesty or impropriety on her part.”
jfngw (3:45PM) giving an explanation. Dearie me. MSM will be rubbing their hands now with Alex, Tasmina, RT and of course Nicola all lumped together on their front pages.
This is Ian’s speech from beginning to end…think I’ve managed to download his entire speech including interventions etc, let me know if I’ve mucked it up or not…just learning how to do this.
link to parliamentlive.tv
Ian Blackford was merely showing the House of Commons something we Scottish independence supporters have known for a long time. The IndyRef2 starting gun is cocked, loaded and there’s an itchy SNP finger on the trigger.
“Make my day, punk”
So proud of Ian Blackford, again! =)
Petra @ 3.51 pm
Yes Petra 🙂
This, and all that is yet to come, is what ‘hold’ is all about 🙂
Ian Blackford speech.
Our “day is coming soon.”
link to twitter.com
The stages of Indy Ref 2 kind of remind me of this, somehow:
Oh, Womble to your partners
Young Wombles were told
If you Minuetto Allegretto
You will live to be old
The allegretto is getting faster and will soon reach a crescendo with any luck!
Handy explainer of amendments selected for #MeaningfulVote debate today.
link to politicshome.com
Thanks call me dave, Capella and K1
It is well worth watching in its entirety. Ken Clarke’s speech was good too but found it difficult to follow his logic that voting for May’s deal would give time for an improved deal to evolve during the transition period.
@Petra
I did have a look at the Herald site, it just seemed to be a stream of SNP bad stories. Brexit would seem to be a minor story to them.
I suspect if there was a war declared there headline would still be about the SNP, they are infatuated.
I did get the info from a mixture of the Herald & BBC (so may not be accurate), don’t know if there is anything on the law site but if it is in legalese I may not understand it.
@K1
You done well but missed the last 4 minutes at the end after Stephen Gethins with Ian Blackford finishing up. 🙁
Never mind, you had a go I’m sure you’ll get it right next time 🙂
Anyone hear “Mr Raffles” Mogg getting interviewed by James O’Brien on LBC this lunchtime.
Classic Fudery by Mogg.
The future’s hormone Australian beef apparently, but Mr Raffles says it will be all dandy.
Just had a wee look at the Gutter headlines, another day, another load of SH*TE.
Indy2 AYE. SNPx2
Tick Tock.
@K1: 4.03.
Link worked fine but the end was clipped off at the last intervention.
Good work by Ian Blackfoot though and you can tell by the stony silence during most of his speech that he was getting through to them.
This is it, delay Brexit for a new ref (aka People’s Vote) or Scotland is offski!
Apropo Tasmina, my inside legal perspective is that to be found guilty of professional misconduct is something that cannot be spun at all. So sorry, but there it is
I see Arlene Foster believes there was never a hard border in Ireland, I can only assume she just never came across one when out doing some walking.
Och, why not
link to youtube.com
Ian Blackford’s closing words are awesome 🙂
Frogesque @ 4.26 pm =)
Yes, the stony silence from the usually incoherently babbling benches while Ian spoke with such passion and clarity speaks volumes 🙂
See Proud Cybernat @ 4.11 pm for Ian Blackford, leader of the SNP MPs in Westminster’s full speech.
Worth a listen.
This is our history unfolding before our eyes.
K1 thank you for your nearly perfect link =) Just made me want more 🙂
Haha never see the Beeb but out visiting today I’ve caught some of the speeches just now.
There’s Rachel Reeves bubbling about her constituents being thrown on the Broo.
Rachel hen, they have heehaw tae dae wi you, whit ye bubblin aboot? Ye’ve already telt us aw ye want bugger all tae dae wi the unemployed. Save yer crocodile tears.
link to archive.li
@Terence callachan 3.06pm
Terence, be aware that adding percentages together is wrong arithmetic.
Box of 100 apples, 5 bad, bad apples = 5 percent.
Second box, 10 apples, 2 bad, bad apples = 20 percent.
By adding percentages, total bad apples = (20 + 5) / 2 = 12.5 percent.
By adding apples, total bad apples = 7 out of 110, which is not 12.5 percent.
Your method is crap, and so is your result. I can’t speak for your politics.
Callachan@3.31.
Is that the best you can do ?
You are truly pathetic.
Were you not just about to post that single thing i said, which in any way was pro labour ?
Or maybe you could link to any time a wings poster has ever “pulled me up” for such pro labour/union views ?
Of course you cannot.
As i said, stick to your anti english bigotry, that is the only thing you are good at wee man.
Hey Mental May!
Milk Lemonade Chocolate:
link to youtube.com
The party begins just after 8pm GMT tonight!
Re Tasmina, I’ve a feeling I saw the second day was today, so not sure how the media could come out with the “professional misconduct” verdict. I might ahve that wrong. Anyways –
link to lawscot.org.uk
Terence Callachan@3.31pm
Terry old boy I think you are having a nervous breakdown.
Sounds to me by the way that “1. Unsatisfactory professional conduct” is more likely than “2. Professional misconduct” which any case can have the result later of
“The tribunal can decide to:
• take no action
• impose a censure or fine”
It’s just a shame the media aren’t bound by such professional ethics.
Derek Rogers @ 4.53
Nicely done!
@yesindyref2
Thanks for that.
Looks like auntie wie a kilt is mooning me from a distance… 🙁
jfngw@4.34pm
I think anyone hit by a bullet from a British soldier on the border would find the bullet pretty hard.
Foster is just highlighting how ridiculous and artificial the border is.
I shall endeavour to get ma timings right in the fields next time, thanks for feedback folks 😉
@indyref2 5:03/5:08
I think you may be confusing the Law Society of Scotland for the Scottish Solicitors’ Discipline Tribunal there.
A stunning speech from Ian blackford
link to bbc.co.uk
you can catch it on the parliament tV programme – wind back to 14.31 this afternoon.
He talked for 19 minutes.
Brilliant.
Great speech from Ian Blackford . At last “ the deal” has been spelt out in no uncertain terms to “ the Westminster establishment “( including a blistering attack on the Britnat establishment 2nd eleven “government “in waiting) . Brexit equates to an all out drive for Scottish Independence from the SNP. The “ battle lines” have been ( finally) drawn. The Scottish people’s sovereign decision to remain in the EU MUST & WILL be respected.
Saw this had to share:
Apparently the new Mary Queen of Scots film isn’t *histericly accurit*…. because….*its just acters*
Now I’m not the spelling or grammar police or even the history cops but come on folks these people are allowed to venture forth in the world and vote
This twitter user claimed to be some sort of bear, I don’t know if that has any significance
@Gerry
You could well be right, I didn’t think to check 🙁
Wouldn’t it be similar? In the Tasmina case it’s a victimless technical error, in that they didn’t treat the partner’s own trust fund as a client (or something like that).
Bears are just people you don’t want to be standing next to at a bar.
Buzzfeed reporting that if MPs reject Theresa May’s brexit deal, EU 27 are planning to quickly make clear that they will not change their position.
” The ball is now exclusively in the UK court” a senior official told Buzzfeed News.
@yesindyref2
Very similar yes. The Law Soc would basically be the prosecution with Tasmina and co being the defendant and the SSDT the judge. (crude analogy)
Both parties agreed early on that there was no impropriety or dishonesty involved on the part of Tasmina or anyone else at the firm. On that basis it is a bit surprising that he law society decided to take the case that far given their admission that there was no intent.
It would be interesting to see if any similar cases were dealt with, without the need to escalate and protract the matter to the extent that they did in this particular instance. That would require a bit of research though, from ssdt.org.uk/findings/
This might be a stupid question…
But, if T May’s deal, the one I’ve heard being called ‘the Withdrawal Agreement’, is rejected does that mean that the Power Grab is then null and void?
Scots@Westminster talking about ‘our United Kingdom’ and ‘our country’, not the one of their birth, is nauseating.
Is the SNP finally bearing its teeth?
England, England, forever England. The more the better.
By God and Sir Harry! Once more!
On the Tasmina case Joanna Cherry tweeted the Herald ‘journo’:
link to twitter.com
“Hi Tom a Joint Minute was entered into saying that there was no dishonesty or impropriety so I won’t be altering my tweet and I’m sure Herald lawyers will carefully legal anything you write so we shd both be hunky dory “
Twitter link to Ian Blackford’s speech (for anyone like me who suffer from ‘buffering’ videos.
link to twitter.com
Oh FGS I just heard the tail end of Joanna Cherry’s speech, as a ”non-political” neighbour popped in!! It sounded brilliant. Will have to search for it later.
Sue the Law Society for damages. They dragged it on when a simple e-Mail exchanged would have suffice. Typical lawyers.
Get this Westminster farce over with. Everyone is sick of it. People are dying because of it. Just unbelieveable.
Ian Blackford.
“…..or will we accept our responsibilities as an historic independent European nation.
That day is coming and it’s coming soon”.
It was her partner’s own family fund which was doing well. How can anyone mismanage their own fund when it is doing well. He just was required to change the name and change accounting procedure. How can someone embezzle from themselves. Tasmina has nothing to do with it. She just had been in partnership with someone who had a family fund,
It is so stupid it is ridiculous.
When lawyers do commit fraud. The Law Society does nothing at all but cover up when it involves laypeople. They do not get damages. A lawyer will not sue another lawyer. Or it is extremely difficult.
Joanna Cherry latest, hope one of these links should work.
link to goo.gl
link to parliamentlive.tv
Bloomberg interview with Ian Blackford
link to twitter.com
Tony Connelly
Europe Editor for RTe writes
Europe’s response will be calibrated on the scale of Mrs May’s defeat.
“Will she have a serious defeat, or what she will consider a manageable defeat?” says another senior EU official.
“I think if this is a crushing defeat quite honestly I can’t see how she will survive, because it will trigger all kinds of events, starting with resignations in the cabinet, then a rather chaotic 48 hours and potentially some kind of gridlock.”
Read the rest here
link to rte.ie
OT from Brexit n that but here’s a great map comparison site
Was just having an argument about the size of Scotland relative to other countries.
Highly recommended fairly kills arguments dead.
Dial in the countries of your choice.
Netherlands in this example.
link to mapfight.appspot.com
I once got some change from the kids piggy bank to pay the paper boy but when I put it back I forgot to write it down in the kids ledger accounts book
Not one *journalist* mentioned it so the law society were never informed than goodness or I’d have been on the front pages of the Noddy Times for impropriety…. Phew!
@Ghillie
The power grab will only be null and void if the UK remains a member of the EU, it doesn’t matter what happens tonight.
Right now the powers are with the EU and only when the UK leaves will Westminster take control of these powers once more, such as agriculture, fisheries etc.
And the brexit words of the day at WM are….”our country”.
Corbyn got about 10 in, treezas on about 6 times.
On my final warning already for swearing at the telly!!
What a waste of time this whole sham has been, from day one, to now.
Hours upon hours of the same repetitive mantra in that fecking dump of a place.
Treeza lies with impunity, not a hint of shame either. Hypocrite of the highest order.
With suicide rates rising,uk politicians talk themselves
to death live right now,and we’re allowed to watch it for
free.
….ENJOY!
You never hear anyone in the European Union talking about *our country*
Those folks are polite enough to express the difference between their country (whichever one that may be) and the EU which is their Union
Our country Aaargh! every time I hear it misused (deliberately)
yesindyref2 @ 17:23:
Amen to that.
In the new Scotland, a professional body for journos should be a priority, and well independent of the press bosses to boot. Who could possibly object? =grin=
May Scots soon cease being the dog that gets a regular kicking but keeps coming back for more.
Corbyn and Blackford never moved their amendments, a surprise tactic!
Neither has the first Tory, one amendment to vote on then as the second Tory was determined that he wanted a vote.
Up soon then the main question.
That’s the vote on the main question I should have said.
The Tory amendment that has gone to a division says that the UK should have the right to end the backstop when the UK wants.
Sounded as if the No’s had it but after a second asking, Bercow went to a vote. Most likely will fall and then it is a straight vote on T May’s deal in about 15 minutes.
Magnusson, Sir pollster & the rhinestone cowboy on BBC Pathetic Quay awayday expenses jolly to
their Britnat “ spiritual home” at Westminster. Not as if it was even “ Scotland specific coverage” , just the usual cringeworthy crawling Britnat propaganda culminating in a PPB for Teresa Mayhem . Perhaps they could do us all a favour and just stay there.
Ian mhor – interesting find. However, England seems to include Wales(some things never change).
@North chiel
Aw but did you see how happy Sally Magnusson was to be there
like Disneyland for her, her wee face aw lit up wae the joy
Joanna Cherry speech
link to twitter.com
I see the BBC has changed it’s headline to Former SNP MP ‘FINED’ for professional misconduct whereas before it said
ex-SNP MP ‘GUILTY’ of professional misconduct.
Mind you it still says found guilty in the second line….
seems today’s case was a tribunal.
Ian Blackford certainly rose to the occasion in his speech: passionate, articulate and every nail hammered home. His excoriation of the Labour Party and its antics after Skinner blew him a childish, sarcastic kiss was powerful stuff.
The house was strangely subdued but then the truth hurts, doesn’t it?
Snackbeard and the FM on Scotland tonight
Peter Pan just jumped into my head there for some reason
jockmcx says at 7.01pm
Thanks for the laugh!
You know, I’ve been content with gradualism so far although I’m a bit more ‘convinced’ than that.
I had a feeling during the indyref that it wasn’t quite polarised enough. I’d have preferred more disagreement. More nailing of colours to the mast. There should be no space for hiding on this issue, but there was.
Independence will be won by capturing the mibbes. We know that. Do we go & get them or wait for them to come over ?
To be honest, listening to the yoonstream at the moment, I’d be quite happy to dig in & say feck them. Shove yer witchhunts up yer arse.
There are more Yessers than naws.
We stand where we are, Independence, no compromises, the yoons won’t be lucky for ever. Pick yer side, Our day will come.
Ghillie
I think I read something along those lines this afternoon.
Who knows, let’s dream, it might even nullify the retrospective legislation that rendered the Scottish Continuity Bill illegal making it a viable Bill and putting the Speaker of Holyrood onto a very shoogly peg!
Here we go folks, get to the toilet, make that cup of tea and fasten your seat belt it’s all going to kick off very shortly….
@Gerry
It was high profile in the media, with the usual anti-SNP bashing, so the Law Society would take no chances. And dare I say, they did seem to be a little impartial of course for Indy 🙂
The “No” lobby is mobbed. Think we can safely say the Prime Minister’s #Brexit deal is sunk.
link to twitter.com
Extraordinary. According to these photos, chairman of Tory backbench 1922 committee, Graham Brady seems to be voting against the PM. If this is right, humiliation for PM will be worse than many feared
link to twitter.com
yes 202 No 432 she’s lost
Theresa May loses her “meaningful vote” by 230votes. Actual result 430 to 202, A WOWSER!!
She calling a vote of No Confidence in her own government for tomorrow!
Hahaha, where’s the popcorn.
T May allowing a vote of no confidence tomorrow if the opposition request it tonight.
Corbyn finally tabled a vote of No Confidence.
No Deal must be taken off the table, permanent customs union established, guaranteed rights and protection for people.
The opposition gets invited to have a vote of no confidence!
Jeremy has fallen off the fence and done it.
She’ll probably win that one.
A vote on a 2nd EU referendum (if it happens) is the one that she might lose.
Yes popcorn required (salt and toffee)
Corbyn tables the motion, munch, munch, munch. Thing is though he will lose is how I see it.
She might resign tonight after a few choice words with her advisors. She deserves everything that comes to her. Bloody minded, rude and intransigent. Fecking horrible upper class twit.
@Big Jock
Agreed, total humiliation then for May. She should resign but she won’t because she’s an ignorant conceited arse who cares for naught other than herself. She lives in a world of her own, her own personal bubble with her financier husband.
No shame.
God, I love Joanna Cherry on CH4.
We are in good hands.
I really “like” Bercow 🙂
Ian Blackford – the clock is ticking. Very little time to resolve this matter, must ensure the safety of all our nations, the fact that it has taken so long is shameful. a humiliating defeat, she must accept responsibility for what has happened, we shall support motion on no con, she must postpone Art. 50, talk to all the leaders of all the parties, put this to the people as a vote.
Why cut off Ian Blackford mid speech?
Only to replace him with A.Neil!
Insensitive?
I am getting rather p**sed off with lack of respect shown.
BBC public enemy no.1
Ms Cherry on Ch4 news just now was excellent.
How can she NOT resign?
@Thepnr
Don’t weaken…he’s a tory 🙂 🙂
@Pete Barton
You can watch without interuption on a PC.
link to parliamentlive.tv
Wow, Joanna Cherry no mincing her words on C4 right now. No People’s vote or the Scots will go their own way. BIG shift in emphasis. Suddenly the front of battle has narrowed in our favour. Also important to note is that JC echoed exactly what Ian Blackford said in his superb speech in the HoC earlier.
“Donald Tusk
@eucopresident
If a deal is impossible, and no one wants no deal, then who will finally have the courage to say what the only positive solution is?”
I think we can assume he’s suggesting cancelling Brexit altogether
could someone please put the errand boy matthew hancock out of his misery, please oh please it’s excruciating
@call me dave
I know, but I can forgive him that if he keeps up the good work. Pur it this way he doesn’t shirk from kicking Tories arses when it’s warranted.
Check this out from yesterdays debate 🙂
link to twitter.com
M. Junker has put out a message saying this is the ONLY deal available.
Make that ‘People’s vote’ Or the Scots will go their own way.’Doh!
Pete Barton if you go to the BBC politics live relay you can scroll back and catch the entire Ian Blackford speech which I summed up in the post immediately above yours
link to bbc.co.uk
the sequence is T May, Bercow, Corbyn, Andrea Leadsom, Bercow, Ian Blackford.
Well.
She will certainly be remembered.
Can see this tally being the kind of thing that’ll turn up in pup quizzes and kids’ tests.
Wow oh wow.
@galamcennalath
What else is there?
Mind you, did Teresa have the last laugh booting Jeremy off the fence? 🙂
The frenetic on goings at Westminster tonight will not work out for several weeks.
The treatment of Michelle Thomson comes to mind. She was innocent of any wrong doing yet was destroyed by the (Scottish media).
Now we have Ashmida being cleared of any wrongdoing but guilty in the Scottish press.
Time to take action.
Trivia pursuit question:
Mastermind modern politics question:
In January, 2019, by how many votes did Prime Minister Theresa May lose her House of Commons vote on her Brexit Withdrawal Deal?
Answer: More than any Government for 100 years.
Speaking immediately after the Maydeal vote to Ch4, Joanna Cherry said that for Scotland it is now a new referendum with Remain on the ballot paper or independence for Scotland.
And of course it will be a very explicit understanding that a re-run with a Leave victory in England and a Remain majority in Scotland will automatically trigger an Indyref.
The net result is that the SNP will either save the UK or leave the UK. It’s a win-win.
What is particularly interesting is the way the Westminster contingent of the SNP have stepped very decisively into the breach, making the meeja shitstorm over Holyrood even more irrelevant. (And all they have on Ian Blackford is that he has the temerity to own a Range Rover)
Joanna on channel 4, scroll along until you spot where to begin
link to twitter.com
Theresa May is now no more than a pig headed dictator. Corbyn will lose the no confidence motion.
This is all just game play, running the clock down, by a wholly out of control Prime Minister.
A total freaking disgrace. Time for independence.
Tried posting this already, so sorry for any duplication…
Ian Blackford’s point of order
youtube.com/watch?v=6QeiR3jWf1A&feature=youtu.be
Don’t know if anyone else caught Sarah Smith’s contribution to ‘Reporting Scotland’ tonight…
In all my life, I don’t think I have ever seen such a partisan anti-SNP rant as the one tonight. The gist was that Nicola and Alex are scratching each others eyes out. I haven’t picked that up from reports NOT from the BBC.
But, eh, par for the course…
link to lenathehyena.wordpress.com
Wrong – the answer is ‘ more than any government in history’
Latest SG advice to the people of Scotland:
link to youtube.com
Let’s rock the joint.
It’s all unravelling now for May. If the ERG lot led by Rees-Mogg had really wanted to get rid of May they would have waited until this vote had taken place before having there own No Confidence vote and they most certainly would have got rid of May.
They must have known that and it’s this kind of thing that makes me think the numbers that got them above 45 to enable the No confidence vote in May to take place was swelled by supporters of May putting there letters in so as to force the confidence vote before she was defeated on the meaningful vote.
It’s true! Politics is all a game to these people, manoeuvring this way and that way without actually doing anything you were elected to do.
Westminster is a waste of time, a waste of money and an Independent Scotland would be well rid of them. The real problem now is when or if we will have a 2nd Indy ref anytime soon.
We’re heading for a 2nd EU referendum and that is at least 8 months away and then what?
I have just hear Boris Johnson say that this vote has given Mrs May a huge mandate!!!!!
I think I have fallen down the rabbit hole. Send popcorn
UK Govt and Opposition have made it clear they will try to stop indyref2.
If there is a GE, the SNP must use it to seek a democratic mandate to declare Holyrood as the parliament that represents sovereign Scotland. Ending the “UK Parliament is sovereign” convention.
Or just seek a mandate to declare the Union dissolved.
If the SNP seek a “quadruple” lock on top of the “triple lock”, they would be making a mockery of Scottish sovereignty.
Things are really coming to a head now.
The SNP are hammering this home.
Scotland’s Independence Referendum is now front and center.
We said hold.
We said keep the faith.
Westminster’s glorious clusterburoch and Nicola Sturgeon’s and her teams’ efforts are NOW beginning to bear fruit.
I bet you shat your pants when the scale of treeza’s loss was announced…you and your chums are in a right paddy now.
Never mind coco, it will soon be over for you.
Seems the HoC has decided to take the title of this article to heart, and descended even further into its very own special quagmire. One moreover from which there is no obvious way out.
One consequence could be a split – a very real, not press-manufactured split – in the Tory Party.
Meg Merrilees Tereza May can ask to postpone article 50 , its whether the EU would except any postponement , the clock is ticking .
Can someone add up the figures for me. The DUP support the Tories is Corbyns vote dead in the water?
colin Alexander– you sound panicky-
There will NOT be a General election resulting from this No confidence vote. The DUP have confirmed they will be backing the government and so will every single Tory.
This vote of No confidence is nothing other than a waste of time but just something that has to be got out of the way.
Labour then are left with just one choice and that it to support the “people’s vote” that was the decision at their conference. Once Labour come out in support of it then in my opinion another EU referendum is inevitable.
Remain will win, so where does that leave Scotland?
Labour still cannot even hint what their policy will be in any GE with regards to Brexit / EU2nd referendum.
Ghillie says:
15 January, 2019 at 8:08 pm
“”Mind you, did Teresa have the last laugh booting Jeremy off the fence? ?””
I actually thought he was going to fluff it. His response was all over the place and he had to look at his notes just before he said he had tabled a notice of a No Confidence motion.
Definite feeling watching him that it was a last minute, reluctant, decision from him.
Given the dire position the Tory Gov are now in would it not be more pragmatic to suspend all other planned business, if a GE is called that business wont ever be discussed by this parliament .
They are still going to try and go on. Unbelievable. What a bunch of imbeciles. A bunch of lunatics.
I raise an eyebrow that nobody else has made this reference…
link to youtube.com
Andrew Neill tonight personified his position as the biggest a***ole on EBC.
Has he ever listened to a reply to any one of his questions? Maybe he’s still recovering from last Thursday’s blethers programme when he really got his ass felt.
Ronnie Anderson
Thanks, crossed wires – I think my remark from M. Junker is referring to anyone who thinks they can negotiate another deal e.g. Corbyn – hence …. ‘This IS the only deal’.
Of course May can extend or revoke Article 50 and she could allow a people’s vote but, oh look, there’s a huge herd of pigs flying round my chimney pots just now…
I believe the feeling is that they might accept an extension to Art. 50 beyond 29th March if it was to accommodate a second vote.
Let’s hope this takes some of the heat away from Tasmina, Nicola and Alex
Rees Mogg and DUP who both voted down the deal are now saying they will back T May in No confidence vote. So if she wins that tomorrow then what?
Is this a roller-coaster we can’t get off. Aaaargh!
@Legerwood
I thought exactly the same, I didn’t believe he was going to say it. Then at the last minute it spilled out. He had NO choice I guess.
@IZZIE: 8.32
Unless some conservatives jump ship and vote themselves out of a job or enough are permitted (via 1922 Committee) to abstain, then Corbyn’s VoNC is dead in the water and we are facing a default no deal brexit.
My guess is the pound has already tanked and the Tory knives are being sharpened.
Otherwise, buggered if I, or anyone else for that matter, knows what will happen
I would love for Nicola to call Indy and load the escape hatch.
So this vote was just the vote that should have happened before Christmas – with the same result I might add. So why all the waste of time? What are the Tories stalling for?
Well if you ask me I’d say the real work is being done in the House of Lords under virtually no scrutiny whatsoever. May is buying the Lords time to re-write an new act of union which will render Scotland’s claim of right meaningless.
T. May and Corbyn’s shenanigans are all a big extended Christmas panto acting as the squirrel to enable the Lords to pull a swifty. The SNP have no representation in that house of ill repute so they are unable to discern the extent of the skulduggery being planned in there.
I’d be double checking the bill introduced into the House of Lords to change the acts of union pretty damn quickly. I’m sure I read somewhere it was due for another reading in the next day or so.
I’m only hanging around waiting for Rock to tell youse that Nicola has been flogging a deid cuddy for donkeys when she was trying to stop No Deal Brexit.
Pie in the sky twaddle.
Unionist MPs will not vote to release the right to future referenda. It will not happen. We had our chance, and the UK establishment, with the support of the media took it.
The men from Moss Bros will be hovering they’ll have the measure of Tereza & fitting her up with a suit of sackcloth ashes come when she finally crashes & burns .
‘Remain will win, so where does that leave Scotland?’
Still in the EU and no worse off than we started. Scottish Independence was never about the EU, it is about a country that wants to govern itself because that is the right thing for any normal country to do.
Cyber-corroboree
Lord Lisvane is in charge of the New Act of Union which has already has one reading in the Lords.
There is a discussion tabled on Thurday about the impact of Brexit on the Union.
This new Act of Union would need to be voted on and accepted in each of the four nations of the UK.
link to indyscotnews.com
Statement by President Juncker on the outcome of the Meaningful Vote in the United Kingdom House of Commons
link to europa.eu
So that’s the DUP who we can’t vote for once again having more power than the SNP who we do vote for
If there’s anybody left in Scotland who can’t see that that alone should be yet another reason for Independence for Scotland they need their noggin examined by a big hammer after a doctor certifies them as a bonkers banana brain
disappointed treeza hasnt resigned
she is forcing her own tory mps to rebel
this article is interesting but its logic is flawed.
the opposition, ie lab/lib/snp/plaid/greens etc are in the MINORITY
The only people who can change anything are
1. dup
2. erg
3. treeza
4. the remainer tories
if none cross the floor, the uk will leave on the 29th with no deal, and since both the erg and the dup want this result, there is no reason for them to cross the floor (they just confirmed this)
since treeza has not resigned, that leaves only the remain tories, eg anna soubrey.
if they vote tomorrow no confidence with corbyn, treeza will resign, but they will be expelled by the tory party at the exact moment the tory mps will be electing a new leader!!
i think corbyn was caught out by treeza tonight. he wanted to know if he had tory rebel support before calling a vonc
Great speech by Ian Blackford, passionate and challenging…but People’s Vote?…..where does that lead us when the English still vote ‘Leave’ and overrule us?..Are WE going to accept that?
Or if we swing the vote with our majority and overrule them, while the English still voting ‘Leave’…are THEY going to accept that?
It will always come down to our assertion politically of our Sovereignty, and how can we do it unless we appeal for acceptance of that right via the EU or UN? We need external validation of our sovereignty.
Otherwise we will be relegated to Catalan status…wrongly…but all because of the 2014 REF ‘Result’ self defining ourselves ‘British’. Such was the trap of Devolved status. We walked into a trap that enabled the Brits to downgrade our equal status to one of a colony voting for what we already owned.
Thus RUK Unionists hegemony will not sanction a Section 30 vote under any circumstances.
Could somebody give me the answer?
@ Call me Dave and Meg
Thankyou for those pointers, I think it’s just pent up frustration that’s got to me.
I was watching RT’s program on it when Neil appeared.
I thought I might see it all a little less stage managed, but hey I was wrong.
One is ‘Thinking very carefully’ as one does when big things are at stake..
Only to find subterfuge and the great game abound as ever.
Having to bite my tongue a bit here.
OT but I have a man frothing at the mouth about the bridge/garden over the motorway at Charing Cross – apparently this huge waste of money is going ahead – anybody know anything?
I thought the whole debacle had been binned.
@Dorothy Devine 9:07pm
Yes Dorothy apparently they’re going to build it and have amenities and things to bring happiness to folk like burgers and art and walky about stuff and perhaps motel type accomodation
I’m being a bit silly but I saw the plan for it and it did look great, plans usually do but I suppose time will tell whether it’s a benefit or not, the expert economy types are suggesting it will actually bring money in plus deaden the traffic noise, who knows
Sadiq Khan Mayor of London citing the recent judgement in court that A50 can be withdrawn unilaterally and a GE should happen immediately.
Not mentioning anything about a EU2nd ref though.
Funny old world for labour who really don’t want to go there.
Thanks Dr Jim , I think it sounds about as essential as the rejected refurbishment of George Square!
I made an error in my language and my previous effort was rightly deleted.
There is a problem in the background. If the confidence vote is lost, the possibility of a General Election is increased. We are seeing a softening of the Gov position on things like the two child cap, slowing the release of Universal Credit and no doubt other things below the Brexit horizon. Could this be a GE preparation, bearing in mind Jeremy Corbyn’s dubious support and the recent popularity polling. I do not know enough to speculate on timing, but, just saying.
Thepnr, im not so sure if there is another EU Referendum remain will win, i have lots of English friends on FB ,the vast majority it has to be said are over 55 and Brexiteers, I have noticed that their attitudes have hardened, English Nationalism and their attitude towards Immigration has not and will not go away. Labour cant make up its mind what sort of Brexit it wants and are unelectable, anyways . The Tories will not lose the vote of no confidence.
most folk are scunnerred with poltics, elections and referendums. the anti EU propaganda from the MSM will go up several notches – Remember senior members of the Bildenberg Group were backing leave. Expect some more “Terrorist” attacks carried out by “ refugees”in the Lead up to any new vote. I will do a Rock and confidently predict that if any second EU vote is held , it will take 732 years for remain to win.
Maria F @ 11.14am Maria basically you have broken down and simplified the constitutional conundrum , as has been said many times on WOS the only reason that wastemonster can claim ownership of Scotland is because we allow them to .
This is madness and has been encouraged throughout the centuries by ALL the unionist parties , they have refused to even acknowledge that Scotland is a separate country and nation with its own grown up parliament , hence why we call them british nationalists , sometimes it is done unconsciously but mostly it is done deliberately to undermine our conscious belief of sovereignty
IMO what is needed is for the SG to refuse to knuckle down to the dictats of westminster , to simply say NO we will not implement or adhere to your rules or regulations unless it suits our ends , and as you say Maria it would then be up to the westminster govt to legally challenge the SG , and if the SG does what Breeks has encouraged for ages take the ruling and ratification of Scottish constitutional sovereignty to the ECJ it would publicly highlight the absurdity of their claims
Y’know the more I look at Jeremy Corbyn the more I see a ghoulish grave robbing creep hovering in the graveyard ready to dig up a body after everyone has gone home
A man without the moral fibre of the living ready to remove your granny’s rings when nobody’s looking just sitting there waiting for someone to die like a Hammer film undertaker
@Shinty 7:09pm
Probably because it does 😉
Kidding – it’s just an illusion due to the graphic tracery – the quoted area for England (without Wales) on the map is correct.
Scotland is trickier but always has been due to its coastline and archipeligoes. Even “Expert estimates” swing around +/- 2000sq/km
Fascinating though, I spent an hour going around the globe with Scotland.