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One tired eyebrow

Posted on October 01, 2018 by

We honestly don’t think they even see it, folks.

We truly don’t.

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    1. 01 10 18 12:56

      One tired eyebrow | speymouth

    535 to “One tired eyebrow”

    1. RyMc says:

      Facepalm to the max.

    2. Irma says:

      But we do…

    3. Macart says:

      No, they’re not big on either communication with each other or self awareness. Probably part of the Britnat entry exam.

    4. Effijy says:

      Great wee Kim Jung Ruth has well and truely told the Soveriegn
      Citizens of Scotland that they WILL do what the Tory Party in
      Westminster tells them.

      They don’t do discussions or consultations
      With the English Colonies.

      Her current medical condition forbids me to tell
      Her and her party where they can stick it!

    5. Cris Thacker says:

      That would require a modicum of self awareness.

    6. CameronB Brodie says:

      Both are British nationalist, the Foreign Secretary, a crass and disingenuous cultural chauvinist. (t)Ruthless, the same.

      Katorga (1928)

    7. Dr Jim says:

      The *British* love their threats

      Ian Duncan Smith just said this at the Tory conference on Sky news to Boulton “If Mr Varadkar doesn’t change his attitude Ireland will be in deep trouble”

      Ireland will never rejoin the UK no matter how much they threaten them with impoverishment the *British* did that before and Ireland has a long memory

      Scotland is and will be subject to all the same threats but have the majority of Scots the guts the Irish had and have

      If we don’t the *British* will rape Scotland to the bone to feed themselves and we’ll be left with nothing

    8. Muscleguy says:

      So all Scotgov has to do, having had a referendum denied is to declare in advance that a new Scottish Parliamentary election will be held and votes on the party lists counted as Yes or No with all parties having to declare their positions.

    9. proudscot says:

      So in the opinion of the UK/England, the European Union is a prison, but the Union of the United Kingdom is not. Why then are successive UK/English Governments so determined to keep Scotland shackled, when they object to the same alleged imprisonment of the UK by the big bad bully of the EU? Double standards methinks!

    10. Big Del says:


    11. galamcennalath says:

      When they moan about EU ‘interference’ in UK affairs, they just never consider UK interference in Scottish affairs. In the case of London’s behaviour towards Scotland there is not even any democratic mandate.

      The EU is nothing like as meddlesome as London! Illegal wars, austerity, Brexit … the EU never imposes such extremes on Scotland against our will.

      Just like second referendums are fine, but not ones on Scottish self determination. Oh no, not THAT type of referendum.

    12. Capella says:

      Ah the Rosa Klebb of the Tory Party. Ruth dictates what we can and can’t do, confident that another Tory government in England is guaranteed. Wake up SLab dreamers.

      As for Jeremy Hunt – he’s a fool. As we all know that the Soviet Union did dissolve and declared all republics independent, his attempt to smear EU leaders such as Donald Tusk will evoke hollow laughter in Brussels. My guess is that they can’t wait to get shot of perfidious Albion.
      Neither can I.

    13. robertknight says:

      Gaunnie Heidrabaw

      October 1 2018,12:01am, The Yoon Times

      Scotland and its citizens will not be permitted to feel normal under a Conservative government, Obergruppenführer Trunchbull has said.

    14. Sandy says:

      Expecting a “Norn Irn” Curtain any day now.

    15. Frank Gillougley says:

      So Ruth Davidson the celeb says….
      Right, we’ll just all bend over then.
      This pronouncement isn’t mad confabulation (a la Danny Kaye in Walter Mitty) but like all of her kind, she sets out to willfully deceive at every opportunity.
      This’ll not end well for her I suspect.

    16. Ottomanboi says:

      Brexit is the OPPORTUNITY for Scotland to get the hell out of the predatory, colonial status called British Unionism.
      Scots, Ms Davidson, will do what they damned well please. Your end is nigh!

    17. Richard Hunter says:

      For the zillionth time, The EU is not preventing Britain leaving: it’s refusing to allow Britain to retain the advantages of being in the EU whilst shirking the responsibilities.

    18. Proud Cybernat says:

      20:27? That’s okay – polls don’t close ’till ten.

      Putting on the jaiket!

    19. msean says:

      Scotland,the country where the official opposition makes the rules.
      Aren’t the Tories always using the excuse that you can’t tie the hands of future parliaments? Well,at least will say something different..oh wait….

    20. John Bell says:

      Is that before or after we are killed off by the Red Tories

    21. Shug says:

      I wait for this point to appear on the bbc or call kaye

      Ha ha

    22. galamcennalath says:

      They just don’t think things through. Parallel situations, knock on effects, interactions, contradictions, implications, predicting backlashes – dealing with the complexity of the real world is just not in their genes.

      Take another current example … May’s plan to celebrate Brexit, and inevitably inflicting chaos on Ireland, in 2022 which is the 100th anniversary of Irish partition. How could anyone be so stupid as to miss that connection!?

    23. Marie Clark says:

      Just who in the hell does Ruth Davidson think she is. The governor general of Scotland.

      I reckon she pinched the idea from that other numpty Richard Who of the red tories last week. Wiz his idea that we wouldnae be allowed another refereundum at a’. Jist who in the name o’ the wee man dae these utterly useless clowns think that they are. Aye jist ye pit a’ that in your English manifestos and see where that gets you. Feckin eejits the lot o’ them.

      The sooner we leave these British Nationalists behind the better. I’m absolutely scunnered with all this nonsense and bravado on display for their love ins,laughingly known as conferences. All the msm sleverin efter them as if they were God.Just gie’s peace, now feck off the lot of you. GGGGGGGGGGGGRRRR.

    24. Robert Louis says:

      Hey, First Minister, their is a certain birth due in around five weeks. That day, is the day to call the referendum. We do not need London’s ‘permission’. As for the walking ego, Davidson, we;;. she can say what she likes. An irrelevancy.

      If the nutter in Downing street calls an election during the referendum campaign, cancel the referendum and make a majority of SNP MP’s a YES vote. It was accepted by Thatcher, so their is no reason for it not to be accepted now.

    25. Shug says:

      I will not hold my breath waiting for this point to appear on the bbc or call kaye

    26. Stravaiger says:

      “…will not be permitted…”



      We’ll see aboot that!

    27. Josef Ó Luain says:

      Here’s hoping that wee Agent-Orange and her ilk get one almighty fright at our numbers in Edinburgh on Saturday. Be there or stop complaining.

    28. Iain says:

      The only thing that seems to be consistent about Ruthy is her inconsistency.

    29. Dr Jim says:

      Philip Hammond in full Dennis Norden without the clipboard style just told us Britain is great and we’re all doing fine and in a century we’ll all be laughing at this

      The crowd sung Land of hope and glory in their heads

    30. ScottishPsyche says:

      Davidson gives the illusion of control but knows her MPs in Scotland do not respect her. Her role is to maintain the fury of the poor, ignorant ranting Loyalists. A group shunned by the old Tories, they went to Labour but talked a good UKIP game. Now they know they are valued (but probably despised) by Davidson.

      The SNP too often allow the response of but Scotland voted ‘No’. Ruth Davidson is now repeating that mantra with no room for discussion or acknowledgement of the changing landscape. She is demob happy and ready to disappear after delivering her baby and a resounding endorsement of May.

      We are entering a truly authoritarian nightmare where the Tories have cut us off from EU allies and are wiping away our identity. Gerrymandering of boundaries and ineffective electoral scrutiny indicates a Tory government for the next 20 years unless we get out soon. I have joked about being frightened but I am genuinely afraid of what life my children will have from now on.

    31. orri says:

      What she said was that if the current government lasts till 2022 and a conservative government is elected at a GE they will not allow another indyref.

      From that it follows that she hasn’t ruled out indyref2 before then. Simply that Labour have screwed up the only party that can save the union shite with their non democratic mandate regardless of the results in Scotland.

      She was also going into lala land where she thinks she can somehow become the next First Minister. Which might happen given how the electoral system for it works.

      At least that’s what she was saying in her “interview” on Sunday.

    32. msean says:

      This Soviet Union reference shows that the Tories are still living in the past,it collapsed decades ago,as do all empires in the end. The decline can sometimes be extensive,but they ALL implode in the end.

      It’s always the fault of someone else with the Tories,the EU,USSR,Ireland,immigrants,Corbyn(even though he has zero power,and never been Prime Minister)now it’s remainers angry about dodgy referendum cash. Apart from the thirteen years of Labour,and that was eight years ago,the UK had Tory leaning governments since 1979. It’s their fault. 🙂

    33. orri says:

      Ireland put their entry into the EEC/EU on hold when the UK got knocked back by De Gaul. They didn’t join till we did. Westminster arrogance might be along the lines that despite being an independent state they will leave when we do.

      I half expect at some point for the UK to threaten inspections on Ireland’s shipping if it passes through our territorial waters.

    34. Legerwood says:

      ScottishPsyche says:
      1 October, 2018 at 12:47 pm
      Davidson gives the illusion of control but knows her MPs in Scotland do not respect her””

      You could very well be correct in that assumption and could include her MSPs in that if the leaflet I got through the door is anything to go by.

      Four page glossy brochure for a Tory MPS- sorry forgotten hiss name already- but you really have to look hard to find out he is a Tory. Very small print. You have to look even harder to see any sign of Ms Davidson, either in print or picture.

      Changed days from having ‘Ruth Davidson’s Candidate’s plastered all over it.

      Straws in the wind? Maybe, but interesting nonetheless.

    35. Petra says:

      ”Scotland will not be permitted to hold another independence referendum until at least 2027, under a Conservative Government, says Ruth Davidson.”

      Eh! Ruth Davidson of the political party that the Scots didn’t / don’t support, via voting for, north or south of the border. Who the h*ll does she think she is? She’s actually a wee con wummin, imo, who lacks in compassion, intelligence, empathy and the ability to tell the truth: an attention seeking oddity who struts and gambols around basking in the warmth of MSM attention. A cross between Oliver Hardy and Charlie Chapman, but not anywhere near as funny.

      If she thinks for one minute that she’s any better than me and will be making decisions affecting MY future (children and grandchildren) she’s got another think bl**dy well coming.

      If you TRULY want to get rid of people like her join the SNP and / or donate, buy the National / Sunday National, support online independence supporters and get the word, the truth, out there folks. If not, Scotland is finished. She and her ilk will make sure of that.

    36. mogabee says:

      I suspect that Ruth’s *shining light is dimming in some circles.

      I mean,the Bruges group of Conservative ‘influentual’ nutters don’t think she can lead them through BRexit!

      *that’ll be right, in other words!!!:D 😀 😀

    37. HandandShrimp says:

      Ruth can make that call if she ever wins an election; until then she can only suggest such a thing as her preferred option.

      Hunt’s comments were outrageous in my opinion. Pandering to the swivel eyed loons who comment on the Mail signing off as “somewhere in the EUSSR”. He supposedly represents the moderate Remain wing of the Party? God help us if the rabidly Leave wing call the shots.

    38. galamcennalath says:

      orri says:

      … she thinks she can somehow become the next First Minister.

      Davidson will be FM in 2021 if the BritNats have a majority. The Tories will be the biggest BN party so she will get the job.

      Sadly, I think there will be a very real chance of that happening if the SNP don’t use their mandate and put independence front and centre at all elections.

      IMO Holyrood 2021 will be a repeat of GE 2017 where half a million Yessers simply stayed at home. Unless ….

    39. Jeff says:

      galamcennalath says:
      1 October, 2018 at 12:12 pm
      When they moan about EU ‘interference’ in UK affairs, they just never consider UK interference in Scottish affairs. In the case of London’s behaviour towards Scotland there is not even any democratic mandate.

      Spot on galamcennalath, England has been meddling in Scotland’s affairs for over 800 years now…..

    40. Davy says:

      Stu, its not so much they don’t see it, as much as its they don’t care.

      While we are currently under the government of another country the so-called leaders of the Scottish parts of that country’s political parties can do and say whatever they want to Scotland, at this current time.

      BUT, when we become independent then the boot’s on the other foot. because if the scottish leaders of those London controlled parties think for one moment Scotland is going to forget what those f’s have done to our country they can think again.

      It’s one thing to have a different political view, but it’s totally different to disparage, denigrate and treat Scotland as something on the bottom of your shoe, just to suit your own selfish ambition’s.

      Scotland does not have the political nativity of years back anymore, Scotland discovered the new media, where the old media’s unionist lies, spin and half-truths are laid bare for all to see.

      For all those who don’t care about Scotland, WE DO , and we won’t forget.

    41. starlaw says:

      orri 12-53

      The UK are in no position to threaten Ireland with anything, as Ireland will be under the protection of the EU who control all the channel ports.

    42. manandboy says:

      So, the Tories are planning to strip Scotland of everything, including the threat of Independence over the next few years? Who knew?

      Just more mouth from The Mooth. Her comeuppance isn’t too far away.

    43. Eddie Woods says:

      Damn! I was so looking forward to another indyref as well.
      Och well…wish Roofie would have told me that sooner and I could’ve got on with my day job instead of having hopes and aspirations of a Free Independent Scotland.

    44. Patsy Millar says:

      Nailed it!

    45. galamcennalath says:


      It has in fact been suggested by some of the Tory nutters that Ireland could leave too.

      Why would they? (Why would any sane country chose to leave!?)

      Yes, the Tories don’t seem to appreciate it’s not England versus Ireland this time, it’s the EU they are dealing with!

      Lucky Ireland having the other 26 backing them up. If only it were Scotland too.

      My hope is that at one minute past midnight Brussels time on Brexit day, the EU’s attitude to Scotland and our wish to be closer to the EU gains some recognition. They won’t interfere in a member country but they have shown to be very willing to interfere in non member neighbours.

    46. Petra says:

      BBC Reporting Scotland: Dark money Davidson top of the bill … Again. Nicola Sturgeon, First Minister of Scotland, seems to have disappeared off of the BBC radar. No longer exists.

      DMD’s making her speech at the Confetence this afternoon and will warn of the SNP “weaponising Brexit”. More warmongering, sectarian style language from her. The most despicable politician in the UK, imo.

    47. orri says:

      The shortest sea crossing from Ireland to the European mainland passes through the UK’s EEZ.

      In a dream scenario the Troubles would kick of again to increase the justification for it but even if the don’t I wouldn’t put it past Westminster to board and inspect all vessels passing back and forth through it’s EEZ, regardless of the international law of the sea.

      In that context it might be worth considering the outrage meant to be generated by the live calf export expose. Animal welfare inspections might be introduced as a method of harassment.

    48. orri says:

      I did love the concept of the idea that it’s 1 against 27 when the evidence is that it’s the UK vs EU and thus 1 against 1 despite the UK’s best efforts to split them up.

    49. ScottishPsyche says:

      The Tories have been given licence to stomp all over democracy in the UK by the voters of England and Wales and in selected enclaves in Scotland.

      A while back I wondered what Ross Thomson was up to as he seemed to be flouting the supposed authority of Davidson outright. I speculated he maybe wanted the leadership but that notion was challenged on here and it does seem that he is after bigger fish. BBC Gary Robertson asked her outright about that this morning. The rabid Brexiteers are openly gaining influence in the Scottish Tories.

      It is almost as if Cuddly Davidson was used to soft soap the Scottish public to get these hardliners in place. Duh!

      Mundell also looks like a placeholder and if the Tories keep their seats at the next GE, more hardliners may be put in positions of real damage to the Scottish constitution and economy.

    50. Dan Huil says:

      @Petra 1:48pm

      “The most despicable politician in the UK, imo.”

      Agreed. Her arrogance and ignorance is ingrained in her hatred for Scotland.

      She gets away with it only because of the britnat media.

    51. Bradford Millar says:

      remind me if i am not mistaken but did wee fat Ruth and the Tory part in Scotland did they not campaign on a single issue during the 2017 General Election on stopping Scottish Independence …. how did it go again …. she lost and SNP returned the majority of Scottish MPs to Westminster …. does that not mean we can leave when we like ??

    52. Del says:

      Just remember that Ruth the mooth says things for her English audience. That’ll be for her safe parachute into an English seat, and her application to be PM. Forget FM.

    53. Auld Rock says:

      I would suggest storming and holding the ‘GPO’ in Edinburgh but the bastards have taken the precaution of closing it!!!

    54. galamcennalath says:

      Dan Huil says:

      arrogance and ignorance

      A nasty combination. A shouty person who hasn’t a scooby.

      Just looking at the news coming out of the Tory conference. In fairness to Davidson, there seem to be plenty more like her in that party!

      People talking absolute shite with conviction and authority.

      Scotland desperately needs to distance itself from far right of BritNattery, permanently.

    55. Les Wilson says:

      Sounds like they are following what the Spanish state is getting away with in Catalonia.
      Ruth,just like all the Unionist parties a two faced daughter of a b….
      I hope all this is taken in by our government and actions to follow accordingly.

    56. Elmac says:

      What planet is Ruth Davidson on? Holyrood will decide when and if a referendum is to be held. What utter disgusting arrogance!

    57. robertknight says:

      I’m sure that those other Yoons, the Demented Ulster Puritans, would welcome ‘The Trunchbull’ with open arms at their next conference as a ‘guest speaker’, especially given that as well as keeping those non-Brit Jocks in line, she’s also a… oh, no, wait, scratch that.

    58. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brexit should be considered immoral public policy, as it wasn’t necessary yet can be expected to undermine social cohesion and public health, create enormousness economic upheaval and hardship, especially for those already vulnerable, and create borders where there were none, subsequently undermining the Good Friday Agreement in the process. All without any apparent public benefit.

      Should Scots allow the cultural prejudices of another nation determine our health, welfare and economic potential?

      Leaving the EU? The Legal Impact of “Brexit” on the United Kingdom

      The special issue begins with an illuminating historical essay written by Sir Stephen Wall. Few words of biography are necessary. Sir Stephen is a retired British diplomat, who worked closely with five Foreign Secretaries and acted as Foreign Policy Adviser to Prime Minister John Major and EU adviser to Prime Minister Tony Blair. He is also the official historian of Britain’s relations with her EU partners,1 taking up this important venture where the late Alan Milward left.2 In his account, he draws an interesting picture showing how the UK joined the EU, but did so reluctantly.

      And, it is fair to say, this attitude has ever since continued. As he perceptively notes in the incipit of his paper: ‘The United Kingdom, at heart, never wanted to join the European Community and, at heart, never stopped hankering after a world where it would be safe for it to leave.’ It is in this respect that Joseph Weiler recently highlighted that nothing short of exit from the EU would be able to appease this contrarian attitude.3 ‘No concession’ or ‘rule change’ would cure this rooted ‘identitarian’ issue.4

      Brexit and Labour Rights: Challenges and Perspectives Workshop Report

      Summary of key points

      The relationship between labour rights in the UK and EU law: Many employment rights are derived through EU law (such as maternity pay, health and safety laws, and rights for workers in non-standard forms of work, such as part-time, fixed-term and agency work). The UK Government has suggested that it wishes to guarantee labour rights for workers in the UK but it is not yet known how this will be achieved in practice….

      Brexit from an International Legal Perspective

      Could “no Brexit” be an option?

      The UK referendum was not binding constitutionally, and many scholars have argued that a very tight referendum does not send a clear signal for fundamental constitutional change. The UK Parliament is sovereign and thus even a very clear Brexit referendum cannot bind it legally. So Parliament — and, with added emphasis, a new parliament elected in a new general election — could decide to ignore the referendum. Politically, however, it would be very difficult to completely ignore the referendum. Given the implications of leaving the EU internal market, some have suggested that a second version of the Brexit deal, with greater control over immigration, could still pay lip service to Brexit while largely maintaining the status quo….

      N.B. The UK Parliament is sovereign, under English law, but it does not look as if the UK Government want’s to acknowledge the constitutional crisis it has created.

    59. sandy says:

      (T)Ruthie, the higher you climb, the greater the fall.
      Do we Scots a favour. Take 20 years maternity leave.

    60. defo says:

      Neither shaken, or stirred!
      Remind me, it’s Monday, so which version of reality are we on today?

    61. Les Wilson says:

      Maybe Ruth is counting on a new GE where Tories will win again, and thus feels nothing to lose by shouting her mouth off.
      Their intentions are Catalonia 2, for Scotland.
      Recent comments across the unionist cabal confirms this.

      By carrying on like this they seem to understand Indy2 is the death of the “Union”. Over to you Nicola,can we afford to wait?

    62. ScottishPsyche says:

      A while back I would have agreed Davidson was after the ultimate prize of PM but now I see her as someone fulfilling a contracted role to increase the vote share in Scotland and soften the Tory image UK wide.

      I don’t think there is any more to her than that. It is clear she lacks depth and can change her principle and views at a whim to deflect criticism and scrutiny. She is an actor who has done well in her role but now that she has achieved these aim she has to bow out. She may not even come back after her mat leave

      Remember this is someone who likes to talk more about their private life than their policies and I don’t see that changing soon.

    63. yesindyref2 says:

      Welcome to The Gulag Archipelago.

      I am Rufa Davidov, your camp commandant. You will work.

    64. Shinty says:

      @ orri, England is the country having to go begging around the world for trade deals. Little England will require all the friends it can muster from this Brexit mess. Ireland is already in a club of 27 countries plus another 60 countries around the globe with which to trade with (through the EU membership). A list of trade deals that is constantly growing btw)

      If little England takes a hissy fit – don’t you think that would be detrimental to any of their future trade negotiations. Don’t forget England cannot feed, fuel or keep the lights on. It needs to import just about everything. Once Scotland ‘the cash cow’ leaves, it will be in a very sorry state indeed.

      WTO agreements take many years, they are also expensive and you would never go into a WTO from a weakened position. Besides the first thing most countries would want to include is free travel for their citizens.

      Taking back control, right enough! Why do you think they NEED to hold on to so many powers devolved to Scotland?

      Remember, no matter what WM say at present, it is cheaper and makes economic sense to buy from your nearest neighbour.

    65. Maria F says:

      “Scotland will not be permitted to hold another independence referendum until at least 2027 under a conservative government”

      Well, thanks for that Ms Davidson. That clarifies matters. We have 2 options:

      1. Declare from now on every single Holyrood/Westminster election a plebiscite for independence until we achieve it
      2. Prove in an international court that Scotland is being oppressed and treated as a colony by a UK state that is not representing Scotland’s interests but rather abusing its position of power to seize Scotland’s assets.

      If I read correctly here

      Scotland proving its status of being a colony and oppressed will change international law stance from being “neutral” and reliant on “domestic law” to settle the differences, into becoming active to protect the right of self-determination of a people.

      According to the article international law tolerates secession pnly in instances of external self-determination, where a people is colonized or oppressed. By the look of it, if I read correctly the article, it looks like offering “autonomy” is the way for an oppressive state to bypass this international law in the case of self-determination. You could argue that by setting up The Scottish parliament and devolution the UK state are bypassing international law and they can continue rejecting meaningful self-determination for Scotland. But any threat from Westminster to curtail that autonomy or to rid of our Parliament altogether will take that bypass away.

    66. starlaw says:

      Dr Jim : 12-07

      A film has just been released called Black 47, Its about the Irish Famine so don’t expect to see it in a cinema near you. Anyone who watches this film will be in no doubt about the chances of Ireland re joining the British Empire. It was due for release on Sept 28. in Britain but as I said ‘don’t expect it to be in a cinema near you’.

    67. yesindyref2 says:

      “Welcome to The Gulag Archipelago.

      I am Rufa Davidov, your camp commandant. You will work till you die of old age or ill health.”

      That gets in the Tories attitude to pensions and private health only for the rich as well.

    68. galamcennalath says:

      Les Wilson says:

      can we afford to wait?

      My understanding is that the next EU summit is in the 18th of THIS month. After May’s lack of respect towards the EU at Salzburg, the EU expect substantial progress by the summit. If, and it now seems only if, there is progress there will be an emergency summit in November for the final signing of the Withdrawal Agreement.

      If the Tories don’t shift massively, and certainly at their conference they show no signs, then that October deadline will be missed.

      If the WA is not signed there isn’t time for it to be ratified by the EU27 individually.

      Sounds to me like we are weeks away from knowing the form Brexit will take. The Tories can’t stall indefinitely and the EU will pull the plug on achieving a WA soon.

      If it looks like No Deal then the Scottish Government and Parliament must act robustly.

      If it looks like a WA is achievable and ‘business as usual’ transition has been agreed, then we still don’t know how Brexit will turn out in the end!

      IMO IndyRef2 should be tied to far more than just Brexit. YES campaigning, independent of the SG, needs to rank up so polls will shift. Timing of Indy should be under our control, not WM’s.

    69. galamcennalath says:

      @Dr Jim

      Black 47 is showing at The Cameo in Edinburgh and Glasgow Film Theatre.

      Not exactly on mainstream release. According to the Odeon website it is showing at only two cinemas!

      I wonder why the low profile? Do they believe it won’t be popular, or is it high level political interference, again?

      I would like to see it.

    70. cirsium says:

      @mariaF, 2.58
      Declare from now on every single Holyrood/Westminster election a plebiscite for independence until we achieve it

      sounds good to me

    71. Dr Jim says:

      @Starlaw 3.05pm

      I already posted that very thing this morning

      I watched it last night

    72. James W McCurry says:

      What kind of democracy does Scotland have when a minority party leader can over-rule the elected Government? Countries take Independence and don’t ask an other country for it. It should be remembered that Ireland and dare I say it the US wouldn’t have become independent if they had been required to ask London.I dare London to send a gunship up the Clyde or Forth! Also we need to weed out those members of “Scotland in Union” within the public sector.

    73. Breeks says:

      Don’t worry folks, I’ve gone ahead and arbitrarily ruled out Ruth Davidson until 2075.

      I speak with as much entitlement and authority as she does, so everybody carry on with whatever you were doing. I’ve got this one covered.

    74. robertknight says:

      Polkóvnik Ruthena Davidova will welcome all to the Gulag of North Britain after the next Holyrood election.

      Armed with her steely glare, iron wit and hatred of all things Jockanese, she will ensure that all within shall be subject to re-education and learn to appreciate and love the Great Union of Britain and Mother Yookay.

    75. Thepnr says:

      Just listened to Ruth Davidson address the party faithful, meaningless waffle in the main and this paragraph can be seen as being pretty typical. Can anyone decipher it? The faithful didn’t appear to have a problem.

      Maybe you have to be a Tory for it to make any sense.

      “Friends, as we approach these crucial few weeks and months, we need to go back to our Conservative principles. The principles of country, of duty, of practicality and of delivery. The belief that every prudent act is based on accommodation and accord. That the best is the enemy of the good if it stops us improving the outcomes for the country. The attitude that listens, eyebrows raised, to ivory-towered schemes of the ideological puritan and replies: aye, right.”

      Only another Tory waffler could possibly understand such bullshit.

    76. Glamaig says:

      galamcennalath says:
      ‘Not exactly on mainstream release. According to the Odeon website it is showing at only two cinemas!’

      One in London and one in Manchester… none in Scotland.

      I’ll be going to the GFT I guess. Better be quick.

    77. auld highlander says:

      Starlaw at 3.05

      Black 47 is being screened at Vue, Inverness this week until Thursday, don’t know if it is being screened elsewhere.

    78. Thepnr says:

      O/T some breaking news.

      Lawyers for former First Minister Alex Salmond will go to the Court of Session next month to begin legal action against the Scottish Government.

      Mr Salmond has launched a petition for a judicial review to challenge the way the Scottish Government has handled sexual misconduct allegations against him.

      The Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service said a procedural hearing had been set for November 6, with a substantive hearing – expected to last four days – scheduled for January 15.

    79. Ghillie says:

      It is not easy to see clearly when one’s head is stuck up one’s own bottom.

    80. CameronB Brodie says:

      Schema are the patterns of thought or behavior that an individual performs in order to organise perceptual information, and cope with new situations. Schema reflect an individual’s personality.

      Perception = memory (i.e., stored guides) + incoming information

      The Evolutionary Psychology Behind Politics
      The Evolutionary Psychology Behind Politics: How Conservatism and Liberalism Evolved Within Humans offers a scientific analysis of how our two main political ideologies evolved within our species. On the basis of the r/K selection theory developed by ecologists Robert MacArthur and E. O. Wilson, it explains how the competitive, aggressive, sexually selective and monogamous, two-parenting psychology underlying conservatism is a perfect reproductive strategy for use in a K-selected environment of limited resources, while a more competition-averse, pacifistic, sexually promiscuous, single-parenting strategy is ideally adaptive to an r-selective environment of free resource availability.

      The r/K theory is used as a heuristic to explain how these two psychologies arose through evolution, how they convey advantage in their respective environments, and how they arise today in response to a society’s level of resource availability. It even shows how the emergence of one psychology or the other, in response to changes in resource availability, has altered history.

      Ideology and the Limits of Self-Interest: System Justification Motivation and Conservative Advantages in Mass Politics

      Self-Schemas in Psychology
      How You Define Yourself

    81. Petra says:

      @ Auld Rock says at 2:26 pm …. ”I would suggest storming and holding the ‘GPO’ in Edinburgh but the bastards have taken the precaution of closing it!!!”

      Thanks for the laugh Auld Rock.


      @ ScottishPsyche says at 2:50 pm …. ”A while back I would have agreed Davidson was after the ultimate prize of PM but now I see her as someone fulfilling a contracted role to increase the vote share in Scotland and soften the Tory image UK wide. I don’t think there is any more to her than that. It is clear she lacks depth and can change her principle and views at a whim to deflect criticism and scrutiny. She is an actor who has done well in her role but now that she has achieved these aim she has to bow out. She may not even come back after her mat leave. Remember this is someone who likes to talk more about their private life than their policies and I don’t see that changing soon.”

      Spot on ScottishPsyche. I totally agree with you. She’s an actor who has managed to totally dupe politicians south of the border with her fake, toothy grin and her pretendy, bouncy optimism (mania more like) that cheers the boring, depressed sluggards up. She wouldn’t last five minutes in the Commons and she KNOWS it. All she’s good for is doing U-turns, carping from the sidelines at Holyrood and chanting the same old, ”no independence referendum”mantra.

      They stated today on the news that her speech at the Conference (the Union is more important than Brexit) will be her last for a few months (mat leave), however I reckon that we’re going to see more and more of her, with the MSM attempting to ‘humanise’ her / the Tory Party in general. Ruth the Mooth will ”use” baby to get herself into the limelight at every turn, imo, promote her book and discredit Nicola Sturgeon / the SNP. And like you, I reckon her ultimate aim is to flee from politics altogether. It all depends of course on how much she can make from her book and potential job offers such as, as a presenter on a BBC politics programme. All I can hope for now is that ”baby” stymies her plans by crying, screeching it’s head off, 24×7. (Poor wee baby – only kidding).

    82. starlaw says:

      auld highlander.3:56

      Thanks for that info, there is hope for the Vue Livingston yet. If not then I shall buy DVD.

    83. Thepnr says:

      Some more breaking news on the Alex Salmond court case.

      “Alex Salmond will argue in court that one of the two sexual harassment cases against him was resolved nearly five years ago, as he continues his legal battle against the Scottish government…

      Salmond’s legal papers claim that one of the cases of alleged harassment in late 2013 was settled informally at the time using the Scottish government’s fairness at work procedures.

      Sources close to Salmond said he offered the female civil servant an apology for a “misunderstanding” after the incident at Bute House, the first minister’s official residence in Edinburgh’s Georgian New Town.”

    84. yesindyref2 says:

      Sure, I can interpret Toryese:

      Friends, as we approach these crucial few weeks and months,” – Friends (victorians and backstabbers) it’s nearly open season on the poor, weak and defenceless

      we need to go back to our Conservative principles.” – we nned to keep our dark money paymasters happy.

      The principles of country, of duty, of practicality and of delivery.” – we need to put the whisky tax up, fuel duty, for the many not the few

      The belief that every prudent act is based on accommodation and accord.

      We need to take over every hotel and the old Bon Accord as well.

      That the best is the enemy of the good” – another few bob on the working man’s pint of heavy

      if it stops us improving the outcomes for the country. – we need to protect the tax avoiders.

      The attitude that listens, eyebrows raised, to ivory-towered schemes of the ideological puritan” – listen to Jacob Rees-Moggy and vote for him

      and replies: aye, right.” – indeed.

    85. starlaw says:

      My interest in this film stems from a story to me by a very old aunt about bodies being washed out of the sand dunes in N.W Donegal, they had been buried standing up in the dunes as people were to weak to dig down. I want my children to see this and know their history.

    86. ScottishPsyche says:

      @Petra 4.14

      In the same way that David Cameron was put in place to deliver the EU referendum. Nothing else mattered to the people who run the Tory Party. That is why he could walk away without regret or guilt, he knew why he was there. PR people put in place to detoxify the image and win back UKipppers.

    87. Lenny Hartley says:

      Starlow, thanks for that will try and get to see it, The black 47 title is off course reference to the worst year of the genocide (1847) Not a famine, only the Potato crop was affected, during that year alone 700lbs of cerial was produced per head of population, with 4000 ships used to export foods from Ireland to the Major ports of Great Britain. Some apologists claim it was the wrong sort of wheat and oats and would take hours to prepare, im sure i would rather boil poridge for a wee while than east grass but maybe thats just me.

      Once when in the States I came across a New York folk rock band called Black 47 , some of their songs reflect on that time that reminds me that I have not listened to them for a long while, but worth doing a google, im sure some will be on youtube , and as I have never watched them on youtube gives an idea as to the last time i listened to them!!!

    88. Petra says:

      @ Thepnr says at 3:53 pm … ”Just listened to Ruth Davidson address the party faithful, meaningless waffle in the main and this paragraph can be seen as being pretty typical. Can anyone decipher it? The faithful didn’t appear to have a problem.”…

      That’s because they’re as doo-lally as her, Thepnr. Suffering from Brexit neurosis; in some cases psychosis. Or just plain old pre-Brexit, Tory, delusional lunacy.

      We get the repeat, ”Friends, I could talk a lot about all this.” And she can sure talk. Talk the hind legs off of a donkey. What we do get is a load of bragging from the lying, blowhard of an attention seeking hypocrite. She’ll say anything, in fact, to enable her to pick up her big fat paypacket along with getting her big fat ego massaged.

    89. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      The Tories and Labour are entitled to their opinions. I think they are not the opinions of the United Nations who say (from the United Nations Charter):

      1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.

      2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

      3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

      4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.

      5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.

      6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

      7. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.

      So I’m glad I cleared that up therefore the Regime can get to ****.

    90. Shinty says:

      @ Lenny Hartley,

      Aye, a familiar phrase to it – wrong type of oats, wheat, oil……!

    91. yesindyref2 says:

      @Proud Cybernat
      Brilliant! Caught me for a second …

    92. yesindyref2 says:

      That’s a great idea, I’m going to steal that.

    93. Elmac says:

      Re Petra at 4.38

      You could also add that she is a little rotund greaseball full of piss and wind. An affront to humanity.

    94. Ottomanboi says:

      Davidson is billed as representing Scotland. Did she actually mention Scotland? Did she explain Scots voted substantially to stay in the EU and that support has grown since the Brexit ref.? Did she remind the English that their party is only third in Holyrood and that independence has not gone away? Did she point out that Scottish politics is no longer Westminster focussed? Ay right! thought not…..Standing ovation WOW!
      Keep the grand delusion going Ruth!

    95. Cherry says:

      I watched Black 47 on Saturday. It’s a very harrowing film and I cried at the absolute horrors being inflicted on the people. These people have no empathy and enjoy their cruelty on others.

    96. manandboy says:

      Though written a long time ago, this quotation from James could have had in mind a group like the elite Neo-liberal British Establishment. Bear in mind that the global economy seems to be heading for a severe crash, which may well be triggered by Brexit, and, that the fall-out from Brexit alone could see the UK self-implode. Or is Brexit just a figment of the Tory imagination.

      “An answer for the rich. Start crying, weep for the miseries that are coming to you. Your wealth is all rotting, your clothes are all eaten up by moths. All your gold and your silver are corroding away, and the same corrosion will be your own sentence and eat into your body. It was a burning fire that you stored up as your treasure for the last days. Labourers mowed your fields, and you cheated them – listen to the wages that you kept back, calling out; realise that the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. On earth you have had a life of comfort and luxury; in the time of slaughter, you went on eating to your heart’s content. It was you who condemned the innocent and killed them; they offered you no resistance.”

    97. galamcennalath says:

      Re Irish Famine. The Highlands and Islands were hit too, however the attitude of the landowners was substantially more humane, for that time.

      Behind Imperial history lay an unofficial exchange rate for human beings, I reckon.

      1 English person = 2 Scots, Welsh or Irish Protestants
      1 Scot, Welsh or Irish Protestant = 3 Indians or Arabs
      1 Indian or Arab = 4 Chinese, Africans or Irish Catholics

      I submit this as my impression of official 19thC attitudes, not as a joke!

    98. Not Convinced says:

      What always makes me wonder when people like Ruth Davidson make comments like the above is that 13 years is significantly more than the 7 years that is the relevant limit for referenda under the Good Friday Agreement. So is she saying that the Tory Government has unilaterally changed the Good Friday Agreement, or is she saying the the Tory Government gives better deals to terrorists?

      Rather wish some media person who try and pin her down on that issue …

    99. Arbroath1320 says:

      So Jeremy Hunt the corrupt UK’s Foreign Secretary has compared the E.U. to the “prison” of the Soviet Union has he? 😉

      Hmm …

      That might explain THIS then!

      The Defence Secretary, you know the one peeps … he’s the one still in nappies, wants to deploy 800 marines to the Artic claiming it’s cause there is a “threat” from Russia! The Arctic is apparently now in the corrupt UK’s backyard … apparently!:D

      As for Colonel Fu Manchu **** Clause Ruth Davidson-Gadaftie and her “claim” that Scotland will be banned from holding another independence referendum until 2027 I can only assume no one in her petty little xenophobic, homophobic, Islamophobic, misogynist, hate filled, racist, ignorant, incompetent, disrespectful little party has informed her of ANY of these pertinent FACTS then!

      Scottish government has the Scottish election mandate
      Independence parties hold Scottish Parliament mandate
      Independence parties hold Westminster majority election mandate
      Claim of Right
      People of Scotland are sovereign

      Still knowing the TRUTH has never been one of her strong points now has it? 😀

    100. Supplementing manandboy
      James 2:6
      “But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?”

    101. orri says:

      NI is interesting in that it’s not up to Stormont to call a referendum but the SoS. You can imagine them doing a Nelson like “I see no ships” in assessing the chances of one passing.

    102. yesindyref2 says:

      With global warming, the melting ice and the coming year round opening of the passageways for merchant shipping (piracy, blockades etc), and the resources that will be available economically, the Arctic is the next economic battleground, and the UK has been very slow to react. iScotland would probably be involved along with Norway and others, a political decision that would need to be made.

    103. Legerwood says:

      galamcennalath @ 5.14 pm

      The newly formed Free Church of Scotland also played a prominent part in providing prompt relief for the Hebrides :
      “”The newly constituted Free Church (1843 Disruption) was prompt in organising an efficient system of private charity across the Hebrides and on the Western seaboard. It cooperated with the Edinburgh and Glasgow Relief Committees – all three formed in early 1847 the Central Board of Management for Highland Relief (which was active until 1850). In contrast with Ireland, Scottish landlords, whose financial situation had been improving since 1815, were more active and collaborative than their Irish counterparts in providing relief for their tenants.””

      Quote from:

      Note: The abstract is in French but the main article is in English

    104. velofello says:

      What that disgusting wee woman Davidson said;May’s discomfort on the Marr show; what Hunt said; what Ian Duncan Smith said; what whoever said.

      Right now here in Scotland, our right to roam is being challenged, not by words, by action. “No you cannot stand in our (your) car park at Stirling Castle. No you cannot assemble on your common green in Edinburgh”.

      Surely the nub of the matter of independence? A group of middle-class “professional” appointees at Heritage Environment Scotland ( did I get that correct?) have taken it upon themselves to define the right to roam of the people of Scotland. And on Saturday will the police act to prevent freedom to roam by accepting instruction from HES? If we meekly accept these unauthorised decrees how on earth will we ever free ourselves of the Westminster yolk? Hands up those who voted for these HES appointees. You didn’t? Were you given a choice?

      Carol Craig’s book, The Scots’ Crisis of Confidence is worth a read.

    105. sandy says:

      Truthie speech:

      “Friends & allies across the continent”. Who the H*** is she kidding. Even using all digits on each hand, lot of spares left.

    106. ahundredthidiot says:

      I think that there is a mental illness sweeping through the british establishment.

      dont keep calm and go mental seems to be the order of the day for them.

      British Nationalists – one day we’ll look back and it will all seem funny

    107. yesindyref2 says:

      I’m forced to add by the way that the Russians ain’t daft, they’ve been quietly modernising their subs, making them “quieter” and less detectable, and ahve a great interest in the Arctic, not far really from making it their own. e.g. quickly googled:

      The Yanks are impressed by the UK’s Astute, wonder if one of them would have detected it.

    108. Abulhaq says:

      Tom Devine has a new book on the Scottish Clearances which deals with the Lowland and Highland ‘cleansing’ of Scotland’s peasant population with the full support of the country’s religious, aristocratic and political establishments. The Lowland clearance he writes has been brushed out of our history because it was accomplished with little resistance from those affected. The perfidious Union in all its glory.

    109. Dan Huil says:

      Britnats comparing the EU to USSR! That’s make the brexit negotiations a lot easier then. I hope the EU tells Westminster to take that running jump off the cliff.

    110. It is a long time now since I warned that on March 30th 2019, and it was no hyperbole, England’s Homeland security would enmesh Scotland in barbed wire and armed watchtowers, as we will effectively returned to English Empire colony status.
      It is all coming to pass, if we let it.
      To all those who caution delaying Indyref 2 until some can-kicked-down-the-road future date in the ’20’s, I say, really?
      Imagine a plebiscite in 2022 when they attempt to drape butcher’s apron bunting from our lamp posts and the Red Arrows zoom across the Castle Ramparts?

      They are pure evil.

    111. mr thms says:

      I expect Ruth Davidson to be disappointed when the Supreme Court eventually approves of the Scottish Government’s EU Continuity Act at the end of October. It seems to be the only thing holding back the EU from agreeing to the Chequers plan.

      “The legislation provides for all matters devolved under the Scotland Act 1998 and subsequent legislation that are currently under the control of the European Union to be repatriated to the Scottish Parliament upon ‘exit day’. This legislation differs from the UK parliament’s EU withdrawal legislation, as it provides more power for parliament instead of producing executive power, enshrines environmental standards and human rights from the EU into Scots Law and provides for the Scottish Parliament to imitate future EU laws and regulations in devolved area post-Brexit.”

      A very convenient law to have in place since it ensures Scotland will be ready whenever it is time to join the EU as an independent country.

    112. CameronB Brodie says:

      From the perspective of Critical Political Theory, this apparent political paradox is definitely not a good look.

      Hayek and Liberty


      Hayek’s political theory is directed against coercion, which he defines as the intentional control of one person by another. The element of personal intention ensures a clear conceptual distinction between the freedom from coercion—i.e., the “liberty”—that is exercised in the private sphere, and the freedom of choice and opportunity that may be severely constrained by the impersonal, unintentional operation of market forces. Hayek’s narrow definitions of coercion and liberty therefore suggest that he was more intent on defending the benefits conferred on us by market forces than on affirming any value intrinsic in freedom—a suggestion confirmed by his lack of interest in species of freedom, such as autonomy, that might conceivably be fostered by state coercion. Hayek’s consequentialist defense of liberty, however, was grounded in economic doctrines such as his own view that prices served a vital epistemic function. Given his strictures against the ignorance of modern electorates, Hayek was driven to propose extravagant limits on democracy and to embrace traditionalism; a different Hayekianism might limit inequalities of wealth and encourage the ability to learn from experimentation.


      Individual liberty and the importance of the concept of the people

    113. Clootie says:

      …but it’s different!

    114. galamcennalath says:

      Dan Huil says:

      Britnats comparing the EU to USSR! That’s make the brexit negotiations a lot easier then.

      Perhaps such shite impresses the swivel eyed faction of the membership, but is astonishingly crass in the midst of talks!

      The EU aren’t impressed.

    115. Cubby says:

      The Maybots plan B for Brexit – food stamps and lots of candles being produced.

    116. Footsoldier says:

      I know someone who works at HES who says most of the top brass are establishment Britnats.

    117. Iain says:

      There we go again.
      I forgot that the U.N. declaration of human rights don’t apply to Scots.
      They uniquely in the world have to endure second class colonial status and there is nothing they can do about it.
      It is the same attitude that lost the brittish empire.
      If we accept this blatant discrimination we deserve everything we get.

    118. Alba 46 says:

      Black 47 is a film that highlights the bullying, greedy, arrogant colonial attitude of the english. Their ability to take over and brainwash elements of the local people is without parallel.

      The evictions, destruction of property and the starvation of the people is irrelevant and secondary to the aims of the colonial english ie subjugation and extortion of the local population. Our history in Scotland is very similar to the Irish with the Highland clearances.

      It also portrays that this could not have taken place without the compliant co-operation of elements of the local population. Police, militia and local place men took the queens / kings shilling against their own people.

      Present equivalent is the so called Scottish tories, labour and lib dems. They like their Irish counterparts are not in the least interested in Scotland or indeed the people of Scotland. They sit back in silence and compliance and see the assets being stripped from Scotland and shipped to england. In return the london parties fund them politically and issue baubles ie knighthoods, lordships etc on a regular basis.

      Until Brexit starts to bite and really begins to hurt, then and only then will the unionist element of the population of Scotland look at other alternatives such as independence. Unfortunately a considerable amount of damage is likely to happen before some people see the light

    119. @velofello

      think it is Historic Environment Scotland,

      it was set up to commercialise our heritage,

      in other words stick coffee & cake shops in all our ancient places and buildings,

      screw as much out of tourists and locals as they think they can get away with,

      don`t know if they are involved in selling of Culloden battlefield to house builders,

      or allowing open cast gold/silver mining in Loch Lomond & The Trossachs National Park,one of the dirtiest mining procedures even worse for the environment than fracking.

    120. stewartb says:

      velofello @ 6:05 pm

      You wrote: ‘Carol Craig’s book, The Scots’ Crisis of Confidence is worth a read.”

      I have been aware of Ms Craig’s work for some time and I found her writing in 2014 on Scotland’s independence ‘disappointing’ – to stay measured and polite!

      Craig wrote the following on 10 September, 2014 in The Guardian: it was a (IMHO rather disdainful) rejection of the SNP and the Yes campaign just prior to the IndyRef. She wrote:

      “The yes campaign is being driven by over-optimism, blind zeal and indifference to reality. Life after independence will be harsh.” She went on:

      “It’s (the Yes campaign) simply not credible. No matter who governs Scotland post-independence, the country will become harsher and more rightwing – or “leaner and meaner”, as Simon Jenkins put it on these pages the other day.”

      Not satisfied with writing to undermine the Yes case before the vote, Ms Craig continued to write in the following terms: “… the core reality of the official Yes campaign – its appeal to selfishness.”


      So I have better ways to spend my time than re-visiting Ms Craig’s work.

    121. Cubby says:

      What the hell came over Andrew Marr yesterday. The old Britnat actually asked the maybot searching questions. He almost came across as a proper journalist not the old Britnat arch BBC propagandist we know him to be.

      The maybot was squirming throughout the whole interview and gave him the full on maybot death stare at the end. Comedy gold. Marr must be winding himself up for getting stuck into Sturgeon next week.

      How does Davidson get away with all the easy ride interviews from the all the media including the recent one by Marr. TRuthless Davidson has Marr interviewing like Lorraine Kelly and the Maybot gets the full on Paxman treatment from Marr.

    122. Gfaetheblock says:

      Interesting breaking news on the Salmond case, especially when you look at the wording of the crowdfunder.

      He refutes ‘harrassment’ and says there was no criminality when crowdfunding, but now admits that he has felt the need to apologise for his behaviour when he was complained against in one of the instances under review.

    123. Rock says:

      Nicola is an Establishment lawyer.

      She knows that the majority in the Scottish parliament is utterly useless.

      She would not dare hold an illegal referendum without Westminster’s Section 30 approval.

      Why would SNP MPs and MSPs want to go into exile in Brussels when they are doing fine here, almost completely embedded into the Establishment?

      Mark my words – Establishement lawyer Nicola will not dare call an independence referendum before Brexit has been completed and Scotland is at the mercy of Westminster.

      To the EU, Scotland will have the same status as Catalonia.

      The EU didn’t quite rush to defend Catalonia did it?

      Challenge to the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here:

      With the honourable exception of Hamish100, does a single one of you have the guts to go on the record and state that there will definitely be an independence referendum before Brexit has been completed?

      Robert Peffers?

      Liz g?


      Dave McEwan Hill?



      Brian Doonthetoon?

      Thought not.


    124. Achnababan says:

      The bans by HEs are of course directed at Independence supporters because Brit Nats don’t march, demonstrate or protest. They claim bans are in support of their ‘we are apolitical’ policy but in reality they are of course very political. The NT’S’ is even more Brit Nat but both have leaders who believe in Brit Nat supremacy over our history and culture

      Scottish institutions have been in the hands of Brit Nats for 300 years and use the Saltire only to wrap around their Brit Nat politics.

      Why the SNP have not done something about that really surprises me. Amazingly an American TV production ‘Outlander’ has achieved so much more in raising awareness about our history than these organisations.

      The new Culloden visitor centre takes prefidity in terms of historical repositioning about the post battle occupation and suppression of the Highlands to a higher and more sophisticated level than I have yet witnessed.

      Regaining our heritage will take a very long time but one thing I can do now is take a solemn oath that as from today I will never visit an HES or NTS properties until Independence arrives.

    125. Rock says:

      Rock (13th May 2015 – “Moodievision: The Fall And Fall…”):

      “Ruth Davidson is the most disgusting and nastiest politician in Scotland in my view.”

      The usual suspects who attack me, with hindsight, come to the same views as I express with foresight.

    126. sassenach says:

      All this talk (on Brewer et al) of the Tories , Ruth and Treeza, saying they will not allow any Scots referendum till at least 2027 may be ridiculed on sites like this – but, make no mistake, many people in Scotland and the UK will believe they have the power to do exactly that. And with the Big Labour Dick also saying we can’t have a referendum, folk will start to believe it.

      I would like to see, at this week’s FMQs, Nicola making some kind of firm rebuttal and maybe explaining what the actual situation is, because, let’s face it, the situation is not clear to the majority of people.

      Newspapers won’t explain it (obviously) but it would get reported if she did it in the Holyrood chamber.

      We do need something to be said, or we might as well give up.

    127. CameronB Brodie says:

      These fuds must think our heads zip up at the back.

      Hayek and Modern Liberalism
      The Theory of Liberty

      This chapter discusses how and why Hayek’s social theory led him to develop a theory of liberty. It describes his arguments about the definitions of freedom, coercion, and law; the relations among freedom, law, and justice; and the nature of the institutions necessary to preserve justice. It also assesses the adequacy of Hayek’s conception of liberty and his claim that liberty is sustained by the rule of law.

      Keywords: Hayek, social theory, theory of liberty, freedom, coercion, law, justice, liberty, rule of law

      Rousseau on Economic Liberty and Human Flourishing

      Freedom as non-dependence
      An interview with Quentin Skinner

    128. yesindyref2 says:

      I’m just finding out that while thinking I’m ahead of the game with my LDA / LPH amphib for realtively small iScotland, I’m actually behind the game as I look at what other navies have, even if they are bigger population countries. And that perhaps the SNP were ahead of me too back in 2013 even – with their inclusion of the command amphib.

      Which could mean that there was a lot more behind the scenes substance to “Scotland’s Future” than critics thought. But which would also mean that the SNP didn’t present it very well, it should have had more detail backing it in other papers, and perhaps more scenarios.

      The paper was constrained by looking ahead to the negotiations post-YES, including not showing your hand to weaken it. A for instance is the currency union, where even suggesting a new currency could have weakend say, the negotiation over getting compensation for “leaving the pound, it’s ours too”. Voluntarily leaving it would clearly mean far less, if any. And Salmond too was all for an easy-ozy transition, continuing “unions” as he put it. I agreed at the time.

      Sturgeon is way different. So perhaps a more blunt and forthright campaign will be appropriate this time, and with the treatment from Westminster we’ve been getting, I’d be behind that too.

      Very interesting!

    129. CameronB Brodie says:

      It would need a vivid imagination to consider Carol Craig impartial. Definitely has a political agenda, IMHO.

    130. Petra says:

      I was pleased to hear Colin Mackay, STV, say the the Tory Conference was a bit of a dead as a dodo washout (or words to that effect) and that there was loads of empty seats in the hall during Dirty Money Davidson’s speech.

      Maybe some of the numpties are beginning to see right through her.

    131. HYUFD says:

      Rock Good post (though I doubt even May would go as far as Rajoy did with Catalan nationalists and suspend Holyrood, send military police to Scotland and force Sturgeon and the Scottish executive into exile).

      In any case on current Scottish Parliament polls the SNP will require Tory MSPs votes on confidence and supply to stay in power at Holyrood after the next Scottish Parliament elections and keep Scottish Labour and the LDs out of power, Green MSPs votes will no longer be enough. Davidson will of course demand no indyref2 as the price of her support

    132. James Barr Gardner says:

      Ony phrase whit contains the word “apolitical” especially if comin’ fae a member o’ ony organization whither it be HES, NTS, CoS, Eastern Star an’ Masonic means only wan thing to me, they’re a UNIONIST, wi’ awe the add ons intae the bargain, bigot,racist,fascist!

      At least LoL are upfront wi’ awe they’re warts an’aw’, in that respect they’re no sneekit. So awe they folk that hide behind apolitical says it awe tae me, they’re FEART !

    133. Socrates MacSporran says:

      HYFUD – I see you’re on the late shift this week. It’s clearly your job to derail and ruin the thread.

      Carry-on camper, I’m out.

      You don’t half post pish by the way.

    134. sassenach says:

      Socrates MacSporran @8-09

      FUD is obviously the only one on here who actually READS Rock’s gibberish – then acts as tag teamster. Prats, the both of them.

    135. CameronB Brodie says:

      Neither is it a good look from the perspective of Normative Political Theory.

      Moralised conceptions of liberty

      2 Moralising liberty
      Negative conceptions of freedom, which consider freedom to consist in the absence of constraints, are primarily divided with respect to the question as to which obstacles or interferences classify as constraints on freedom and which ones are not freedom-infringing. Rights-based conceptions provide a distinctive answer to this question by considering only rights-violating interferences as infringements of liberty. A rights-violating interference is an interference with an action that (i) an agent has a right to perform and that (ii) violates this right. This implies that rights-based accounts involve moralised characterisations of both the y- and the z-parameter in MacCallum’s triadic schema, giving rise to restrictions with respect to the type of action that is being interfered with as well as with respect to the source of the obstacle….

      Liberty and Equality in Political Theory

      Normative liberal theory and the bifurcation of human rights

    136. Phronesis says:

      ‘The English suburbs are dying. Years of austerity have slowly changed the landscape. Poverty is now common in the suburbs. Since 2014 life expectancy has been falling across most of England, especially in the suburbs. Now infant mortality rates are also rising year on year (unlike anywhere else in Europe). In hindsight it is not surprising that the majority of suburban English people voted Brexit, most noticeably in the Home Counties. Middle England is understandably angry…Cuts to meals-on-wheels, social worker visits, day centres, bus routes, post-offices and many other suburban staples have hastened their exit…
      Not rich enough to decamp to idyllic villages, to private health care and eventually an exclusive retirement complex, those who did well, but not exceptionally well, face an isolated suburban old age. Their grown-up children live in another suburb far away, or have not yet escaped the central city and renting – still waiting for the inheritance that is their ticket to suburbia…England accommodated its loss of empire by accepting rising economic inequality. After the 1970s the country as a whole became relatively poorer in comparison to the rest of the world and with most of Europe, but in the 1980s, 1990s and noughties those at the top took a greater and greater share of the pie each year. As they did so they took more and more from the poor and from suburban middle England’

      A solution ;
      ‘Redistribution: The inherent inequality in society is undeniable and tax is one way of addressing it. This may be directly, for example, by providing social security payments, repayable tax credits or family allowances. Alternatively, it may be indirectly, through a progressive tax system where the richer bear a greater tax cost…the most efficient tax would be on the potential annual rental of all land, and this would also recognize that land is a public asset and should not be the absolute possession of private individuals’

      The death of suburban England is the final act of the United Kingdom. When one has lost suburban England and society is so eroded that all the human capital that was built up after WW2 with the founding of the welfare state has been raided all that is left is personal greed and unearned privilege. That is not a reason to celebrate Brexit Britain, it is the political set up in pre- Brexit Britain that has caused such monumental damage. Brexit will provide the nails to close the lid of the UKOK coffin.

    137. sandy says:

      Rock & HYFUD;

      Recommend a bucket of water for you both. Immerse your head in same, breath deeply then relax & stay there. Will work wonders. (For the rest of us.)

    138. ronnie anderson says:

      Am playing Simple Simon wie Walter Walters no been but Simon’s pish’d aw er this thread.

      Don’t engage fekin Trolls Please .

    139. Johnny says:

      Throughout Europe, countries (especially the Netherlands, it would seem!) are preparing for the UK to leave the EU with No Deal.

      Scotland now has to make its own preparations for this event by asking its people whether it wants to have that choice foisted upon it, or become independent and choose its own course.

      We will continue to hear all manner of nonsense about how Scotland voted No last time and that means we have to put up with Westminster rule (whatever it entails for us) till Doomsday but the truth is, unless you don’t see Scotland as a nation, we are at an impasse that must be resolved by going to the people to ask them to plot their constitutional course… whether that’s to ignore their own Remain vote and do as bid by Westminster, or to reassert that choice, this time making it clear that that’s more important to them than staying in the UK.

      The No vote and the Remain vote were, and are, incompatible. We need to find out which Scotland wants more.

      Scotland needs to prepare for No Deal by first asking if we are going to put up with it. I hope to hear that we will be taking steps towards doing so in the very near future.

    140. jfngw says:

      I read STV at last asked Ruth Davidson some tougher questions, they go where the BBC fear to tread it would seem.

      In Fact they could easily rename Rep Scot, What Ruthie Did. It is often no more than Davidson PR material, ‘The lovers walked hand in hand into the soft focused camera’.

    141. HYUFD says:

      Phronesis Yet those who own property in those same English suburbs are still far richer than 95% of the world’s population

    142. HYUFD says:

      Johnny You obviously missed the news today that May is ready to back down on some checks on goods moving between GB and NI, with the aim that the whole UK stays in the EU’s customs regime.

      That would resolve the Irish backstop issue and enable the transition period and FTA negotiations to begin and thus avoid No Deal

    143. Scotspatriot says:

      Reports on Facebook in the last hour that fences are being erected around the perimeter of Holyrood park.
      Can anyone confirm?

    144. galamcennalath says:

      Johnny says:

      Scotland needs to prepare for No Deal by first asking if we are going to put up with it.

      A couple of weeks ago I thought it looked like May would accept a reworded Irish backstop and the EU would accept a woolly statement to future relationship. We would thereby move to a Blind Brexit with transition period to sort things out on trade. (Assuming it would pass in WM)

      After Salzburg where May screwed up bigtime, and the jingoistic rhetoric of the Tory conference, I now think No Deal looks odds on.

      So yes, Scotland will very soon have to make plans for the future.

    145. CameronB Brodie says:

      And it doesn’t look much better from the from the perspective of International Relations Theory.

      Self-determination and power: a human-centric approach to the international relations

      This paper analyzes the importance of self-determination in international relations. It explains the puzzle why some small regions or group of people are ready to be small states by separating from big powerful states. The self-determination of a nation is preferable to the people than a military power of the large state. The military power of a state may not translate into a better life of people. So people’s empowerment cannot be treated the necessary outcome of state’s military power. When one group of people feel as marginalized in national policymaking and its implications, they show a secessionist tendency. This paper contends that people may prefer their ideology, identity and self-determination than the power of the state.

      Key words: Identity Politics; International Relations; Power; Secessionist Movements; Self-Determination

      Introducing Liberalism in International Relations Theory

      Utopianism and Realism In International Relations Theory

    146. Robert Peffers says:

      @Abulhaq says: 1 October, 2018 at 6:21 pm:

      ” … The Lowland clearance he writes has been brushed out of our history because it was accomplished with little resistance from those affected.”

      Not in my family it wasn’t. This, of course, might be the reason that I have never suffered from the Scottish Cringe.

      Briefly central Scotland and the southern uplands were cleared by he use of, “The Vagrancy Acts”, and the way that landowners, including farmers, employed farm and estate workers by feeing them on. BTW: Scotland abolished the Vagrancy Acts decades ago but they are still in force in England and Wales.

      It worked like this – Once each year the landowner would round up all the workers with their, “Pluckie’s Kists”, (Ploughman’s Chests). Load them and their Plucki’s Kists onto farm carts and take them to the, “Feein oan”, Merkit. The luckless workers then had to sit there and hope that a landowner, would fee them on for another year. Often this would be the same landowner who had fee’d them on the previous term.

      The workers, and they included such as railway company employees, lived in, “Tied Cottages”, if they were married couples. In communal bothies, if they were single men, while female workers, (Kitchies), were housed in, “The Big Hoose”, “downstairs”, or in the attics. If no one fee’d them on they were thus jobless and homeless. Now these, “Pluckie’s Raws”, were quite simply hovels with no running water, (except quite often that which ran down the inner walls).

      They often only had hard packed clay floors and no mains water, drainage, indoor toilets or gas and/or electricity. How do I know this? I was brought up in such a Pluckie’s Raw until well after WWII.

      Anyway, I digress – This is where the, “Poor Laws”, and the, “Vagrancy Acts”, come in. When, “The Clearances”, of the Highlands was going on the Clans People were inclined to fight back because they had always thought their crofts were there own and they were being robbed of their homes. Thus it was a often a violent confrontation that the Clan’s People were bound to lose as the local law was the landowners/Clan Chieftains and backed by the United Kingdom Government who had the law on their side by reason of the long standing and much amended, “Poor Laws and the Vagrancy Acts.

      The Lowlanders and Southern Uplander’s had never had reason to imagine they owned their homes. So how did it work?

      The landowner moved in sheep and thus needed only a few shepherds the rest were left homeless and jobless. The phrase in the Vagrancy Acts went along the lines of, “Being without visible means of support”, so along came the local Police Constable who had the duty to arrest the jobless/homeless person as, “Having no visible Means of Support”, and cart them off to the local beak. Here there was several options open to the Bench.

      The now, “Criminal”, could be sent to, “The Work House”, and there have to work to get even worse conditions that either the Communal Bothie, Pluckie’s Raw, or the dank cellar or overcrowded, and often communal shared attic space. This, or the, “Poorhouse”. and alms from, “The Pairish”.

      However, the real biggie was to be sentenced to be, transported to the colonies and, “Apprenticed”, to some rich landowner. Many, if they survived the journey, were killed by being worked to death, death, starved to death, sexually abused or served their entire sentence in the local brothels or on the streets of the colonies.

      There was a slightly better lot for a few. If they were transported as a criminal they often died on the journey but for a few they could sign-on as warders for the other prisoners. This was counted as having, “served their time”, and on arrival they could “Stake a claim”, and either farm it or mine it. If they farmed it and built a home on it they got to keep it. If they mined it they could be lucky and get rich but, in any case they were free to stake another claim.

      Scotland abolished these Vagrancy Acts in 1982: Rhey remain on the Statute Book in England & Wales:-

      “In 1982 the entire Act was repealed in Scotland by the Civic Government (Scotland) Act. Section 18 of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990 (Ireland) repealed section 4 of the 1824 Act (begging and vagrancy) in Ireland.”

      You can read more about it here:-

      Be aware that the local council in the town of Winsor in England were intending to use the Vagrancy Acts to clear homeless people from Winsor for the Royal pending Royal Wedding. One wonders if they were going to set up Poor Houses Work Houses or transport them to the last remaining English Colony of Scotland.

    147. sandy says:

      James Barr Gardner @ 8.08pm.

      You appear to be under the MYTH that all masons in Scotland are unionists. Indisputably NO.

      They come under the auspices of The Grand Lodge of SCOTLAND, reputedly the largest in the World with Lodges in every corner of the world, encompassing all colours, religion, creed, etc., all under the condition of being upright, honest & heedful of fellow man.

      Woe betide a Brother if he breaks that condition.

      Would other posters please take note.

    148. Johnny says:

      Yeah, HYFUD, but that’s not a new plan at all. They have kept this up throughout and it won’t go through because the Tories are intent in dividing the four freedoms. They present it as ‘fresh’ to pretend it’s different offer being rejected, but it already has been. Several times.

      It’s more nonsense, other words. The whole UK doesn’t get to be in just for some agreement on customs checks….and they have been told repeatedly that this backstop deal is only for Northern Ireland in recognition of tensions there.

    149. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Hey HFUD you still haven’t answered me on the previous thread (My resignation from the Labour Party) when I asked you:

      “Who will your ‘England and Wales Government’ be proposing to buy it’s energy from and under what tariff regime?”

      “How much would it raise in revenue for an Independent Scotlands Exchequer?”

      I note you’ve answered others but not me so I’ve given you some detail regarding Scotland being a NET EXPORTER of Electricity (to NI and England) while England is a NET IMPORTER of electricity (from Scotland and the EU) see comment below:

    150. jfngw says:

      There is the tall thin one with the strangely afflicted walk, very proper spoken but a bit dim. Often followed by the small dumpy one that likes to make pleasing noises, incoherent for most humans, to impress the tall thin one.

      Star Wars in case anyone thinks I’m referring to anything else, 3CPO & R2D2.

    151. Phronesis says:

      ‘The UK has a very high level of income inequality compared to other developed countries.
      Households in the bottom 10% of the population have on average a disposable (or net) income of £9,644 (this includes wages and cash benefits, and is after direct taxes like income tax and council tax, but not indirect taxes like VAT). The top 10% have net incomes almost nine times that (£83,875)…income inequality is much starker at the top of the income scale, with the group with the 9th highest incomes making only 61% of the top 10%’s income…
      Income is also spread unequally across the UK’s regions and nations. The average household income in London is considerably higher than in the North East’

      The inequality gap affects all aspects of society;

      ‘Absolute poverty is projected to fall in southern regions, the East, Yorkshire & the Humber and Scotland, but rise in the North East, the North West, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Midlands. Although absolute child poverty is projected to increase in each nation and English region, the largest projected rises are in the North East, East Midlands and Wales, which see increases of at least 5ppts’

    152. Robert Peffers says:

      @sassenach says: 1 October, 2018 at 7:39 pm:

      ” … Newspapers won’t explain it (obviously) but it would get reported if she did it in the Holyrood chamber.”

      Where did you get that load of pish, sassenach?

      BBC Jockland and Toodleoothenoo Taylor regularly distort the goings on at Holyrood. Taylor usually begins by telling his listeners what they are supposed to believe even before FMQ’s begins, (One assumes he gets a press release beforehand).

      Then he talks across whatever Nicola is saying at what Taylor decides is the appropriate time to do so. Then he, “Interprets”, it for his loyal listeners/viewers so they don’t need to and, as far as the rest of the SMSM is considered, FMQ’s just didn’t happen.

    153. velofello says:

      @ stewartb:- I’m not endorsing Carol Craig’s work. I found some of her views in the book I referenced, uncomfortably appropriate. As in, we Scots like a good argument, but won’t get off our arses to act out our arguments.

      The actions by Heritage Environment Scotland (correct this time?) are a disgrace. I’ve checked out the membership of HES, not a plumber, painter nor mechanic among them.So what do we do to ensure that HES membership represents the general population? I know nothing about them, my fault I arguably, yet hands up those reading here who do know of them, and how “one” applies and is selected etc.

    154. Glamaig says:

      apologies if anybody already linked to this

      UK may be deliberately aiming for a no-deal outcome – horrific if true and kinda ties in with what we are seeing…

    155. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “hatred of all things Jockanese” fae Davidson is it @robertknight says at 3:50 pm

      I dinnae like Colonel Yadaftie much either!!


    156. Fixitfox says:

      There’s none so blind as those who will not see. #DissolveTheUnion.

    157. potter says:

      But the European Union is bad, the UK Union is good, don’t ye know?

    158. CameronB Brodie says:

      And there is no redemption from the perspective of Critical Realism. Who’d vote for (t)Ruthless, other individuals of low moral competence?

      International human rights, citizenship education, and critical realism

      Priscilla Alderson*
      UCL Institute of Education, University College London

      Citizenship education invokes dilemmas even for the most committed teachers and students, researchers, and innovators. How can citizenship education advance equity and equal rights within highly unequal schools and societies? How can it support young people to feel they have the competence, confidence, and right to vote and to challenge injustice? How can we be sure international human rights are realities, not merely passing ideologies?

      This paper argues that rights really exist as expressions of visceral embodied human needs and moral desires that are integral to human relationships. Rights also serve as powerful legal structures that can help to prevent and remedy wrongs, and they work as enduring high standards and aspirations. The paper suggests how critical realism can help educators to resolve dilemmas in theoretical education about rights as knowledge, principles, and mechanisms, and in practical education that enables students to enjoy and exercise their rights and respect those of other people.

      Keywords: children’s rights; critical realism; embodied rights; ethics; politics; universal rights.

    159. galamcennalath says:

      Glamaig says:

      UK may be deliberately aiming for a no-deal outcome

      There are only a few weeks to go before the Tories either dump red lines and move to ‘Norway’, or stick with them and accept ‘Canada’ which necessitates internal UK customs. Yet they continue with ‘Chequers’ which is a non started because it’s cherry picking and would leave the UK with an unfair advantage.

      Why all the prevarication?

      Manufacture conditions for No Deal and blame the EU for intransigence – that, as a planned outcome is floated regularly!

      Perhaps we are now seeing the plan being brought to conclusion! We will all know soon enough if Albion is as Perfidious as always!

    160. Collie says:

      I thought I was watching “One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest”.

      But it turn out I’d tuned in to the Tory Party Conference.

    161. Jock McDonnell says:


      We know, we have always known, the British establishment are just not dumb. Its all crafted. All of it.

    162. HYUFD says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker Last time I checked 34% of rUK energy imported from Scotland and the EU was not a majority and I don’t think on any scenario trade with Scotland and the EU would end completely

    163. HYUFD says:

      galamcennalath According to tomorrow’s Times frontpage May is now going to propose to the EU the UK will stay in the Customs Union until a deal on the Irish border is agreed, that is basically the same position as Corbyn has and would avoid No Deal

    164. cirsium says:

      Is this Mrs May setting up her Looters’ Charter –

      A quote from a letter in The National came to mind

      If we Brexit with rUK, we will be absorbed very quickly and rendered ineffectual. That is the Tory plan – the only one they have, actually – and both right-wing Brexiteers and the more moderate (and that doesn’t mean moderate in any sense that ordinary people might mean by the word) Tories are united on that.

      Time to go

    165. HYUFD says:

      Phronesis Inequality has fallen in the UK over the last 10 years

    166. Calum McKay says:

      No suprise, Scotland is a special case where the norms of democracy are not for us.

      We must be saved from ourselves and we have those nice people from the tory and labour parties to thank!

    167. CameronB Brodie says:

      You’re persistent, I’ll give you that.

      Health Inequalities: Critical Perspectives


      The UK has been recognized as a global leader in health inequalities research and policy. Yet, despite post-1997 policy commitments, by most measures the UK’s health inequalities have continued to widen. This failure has prompted calls for new approaches to health inequalities research and policy, alongside a growing sense that public health researchers ought to be more actively involved in ‘public health advocacy’. However, there is currently no agreement as to what these new research agendas should be or precisely what it is that public health egalitarians ought to be advocating. This book aims to address these gaps. It begins by taking stock of the UK’s experiences of health inequalities research and policy to date, reflecting on the lessons that have been learnt from these experiences, both within the UK and internationally. It then moves on to identify emergent research and policy topics, exploring the perspectives of actors working in a range of professional settings on these agendas. Finally, the book considers potential ways of improving the links between health inequalities research, policy, and practice, including via advocacy.

      Keywords: health inequalities, public health, evidence, policy, advocacy, politics of health, UK, international, social determinants of health, research impact

      Critical Medical Anthropology, Inequalities and Health Disparities

      Desperately Seeking Reductions in Health Inequalities:
      Perspectives of UK researchers on past, present and future
      directions in health inequalities research

    168. Hamish100 says:


      rock disnae like the First Minister nor Independence supporting papers. who could have guessed.

    169. Collie says:

      Nicola is keeping her powder dry.

      Very frustrating but all part of the bigger plan.

    170. mr thms says:

      Is UK Government about to pin its hopes of a deal with the EU, on the Scottish Government’s position on Brexit?

      “Scotland’s Place in Europe”

    171. mike cassidy says:

      Energy provision post-brexit.

      And it aint no simpler via the WTO!

      Still, there’s always gridwatch to keep us amused as it all falls apart.

    172. Arabs for Independence says:

      Velofello@6:05 pm

      That will be the Carol Craig that urged us to vote No to independence

    173. Thepnr says:

      BoJo the clown apparently will delay Brexit for 6 months if he replaces May as Prime Minister. This is in order to give the UK more time to prepare for an orderly No Deal Brexit.

      A clown right enough LOL.

      PS the source is a bit iffy 🙂

    174. North chiel says:

      “ Hyufd @ 1055pm” stated that “ May was going to propose to the EU “ However, the EU doesn’t want a proposal they want a Decree nisi and thereafter a decree absolute and who can blame them? They are probably sick of the sight of May and her never ending “ Brexit shambles”.

    175. Collie says:

      And little nuggets of must have’s keep coming out the closer we get to The Brexit deadline.

      Like lorries wanting to access the EU need special travel permits if they are from a country outside the EU, like england for instance.

      No permits means no access, means massive tailbacks at all UK Ports.

    176. mike cassidy says:

      This is a good summation of Brexit so far.

      (wouldn’t archive)

      although the author is not willing to go as far as this suggestion – which I’ve linked to before.

      But then we could always rejoin – couldn’t we?

    177. Petra says:

      Take your drinks and foodstuff with you. Plan where you’ll use the loo, lol. Pick up your litter. Behave well and enjoy yourselves. Don’t let anyone or anything mar the independence movement and be aware that some might be there to do just that.

      Statement on Holyrood Park.

    178. Robert Peffers says:

      @HYUFD says: 1 October, 2018 at 10:52 pm:

      ” … Last time I checked 34% of rUK energy imported from Scotland … “

      Indeed but what about the, “National Grid Connection Charges”, scam, HYUFD?

      Care to explain to we ignorant Scottish Independence Supporters the rational behind that particular British/English Nationalist theft of their only legally equally sovereign partners in the misnamed United Kingdom’s, natural resources?

      Does it not fly directly in the face of that most basic of Conservative Party mantras?

      You know the particular Conservative mantra I mean, don’t you, HYUFD?

      I refer to the basic premise of, “The Free Market Economy”, that dictates the holder of a scarce commodity has the right to get the very best price for that commodity on the open market.

      So, as Scotland has this spare capacity to generate electric power, (and mainly now by renewable sources), then should not Scottish power producers get more for their product from that part of the United Kingdom where they are most deficient, or perhaps that should read, where there is greatest scarcity of the product?

      However, Westminster decrees that the further away from where that commodity is most scarce the producers of the electric power are situated then the higher those producers get charged for each kilowatt of power they add to the National Grid.

      Then Westminster compounds this bare faced theft of Scottish natural resources by actually subsidising those producers of electric power that are in and around that area of the United Kingdom that is most deficient, or to put it another way, where the demand for electric power is greatest.

      How can that be reconciled with Conservative mantra? What do you imagine will happen to the electricity supplies to the Greater London area after the Conservative loonies remove the United Kingdom from the European Union and England has no access to the European member states power suppliers? Followed by the Scots telling Westminster the union is over. Then Russian Power cannot be accessed via the Britain/European electricity links.

      Scotland WILL end the union, HYUFD, There is nothing that Westminster can do to prevent it. It is now only a matter of time before the union ends and it gets ever more close to the union’s end as the BR UKexit gets nearer and nearer to the inevitable No Deal exit that was always going to be the end game.

      Within minutes of the press release of the Westminster madness of leaving the European Union I posted here on Wings that it would never be countenanced by the European Parliament and I explained exactly why. That was even before the term, “No Cherry Picking”, had become a stock phrase but that was the exact reason I gave. The EU cannot allow any concessions to an outside state as every EU Member State would, correctly, demand at least the same deals of whatever freedoms that Westminster demanded but probably would want better terms and that would be the end of the European Union. The EU has to be the same freedoms for every member state and no exceptions.

      Not one of the member states has made more than slanted threats to agree to allow Westminster a better deal than the other member states. That is because anyone with the power to reason knows that no other EU Member states are daft enough to consider being on the outside looking in.

      Not Even little Greece was daft enough to leave even while under severe EU restrictions. They knew they would be even worse off on the outside and that it was their own fault they got into such trouble in the first place.

      Only Westminster could be so self delusional and even dafter to carry on all the way out.

    179. manandboy says:

      There is hardly a single serious-minded commentator that will not admit that he/she still doesn’t know how Brexit will turn out. After two years and three months that is incredible. It is also worth serious reflection.

      Bearing in mind that Brexit will happen, that it will be very bad for the UK economy and that it could lead to Scotland’s independence and the loss to Westminster of Scotland’s incalculable energy wealth, what is the British Establishment capable of doing in those circumstances to save itself from bankruptcy and ruin?

      The answer to that question is probably nearer to what will in fact happen than any other answer available today.

      I fear for the future of Scotland.

      I can see the possibility of Emergency powers being used by Westminster for the purposes of ending the movement for Independence at every level, because it poses a threat to England’s national economic security.

      Troops in Northern Ireland for 30 years. It can happen in Scotland. It is certainly not beyond this Tory-UDA-DUP Government.

    180. Gordon Taggart says:

      sandy says:
      1 October, 2018 at 9:27 pm

      James Barr Gardner @ 8.08pm.

      You appear to be under the MYTH that all masons in Scotland are unionists. Indisputably NO.

      They come under the auspices of The Grand Lodge of SCOTLAND, reputedly the largest in the World with Lodges in every corner of the world, encompassing all colours, religion, creed, etc., all under the condition of being upright, honest & heedful of fellow man.

      Woe betide a Brother if he breaks that condition.

      Would other posters please take note.

      Errr….No, Sandy, I won’t “take note” as you may speak of “the rules” of that particular secret organisation but in reality, in many lodges, they have made, make and will continue to ensure that they are “jobs for the boys” clubs and unless you sook up the GMM’s erse, you won’t exactly be the black ball but you will be passed-over and shunned by the other sooker-uppers.

      The days of these archaic cults are well past. They belong in the same bin as the corrupt shop-stewards from the old dinosaur trade unions who directed the hate-mobs to break the windows of those who would dare to raise their hands in defiance of the union’s “recommended” voting action.

      In other words, they are irrelevant, not required and not in tune in this age and therefore should be exposed as the dens of corruption that they actually are.

    181. yesindyref2 says:

      @Gordon Taggart
      This is an irrelevance, and a splitter. I know of at least 2 masons who voted YES, and having met a few others, they could be too. Quite normal people. What I’d say is that generalising about an organisation is basically speaking, wrong.

    182. CameronB Brodie says:

      How’s about a bit of critical discourse analysis? 🙂

      Analysing collective identity in discourse: social actors and contexts

      3. How to analyze collective identity in discourse

      The focus of this methodological section is on social actor representation and interdiscursivity as two parameters that can be analyzed to show what collective identities are transported in texts and how that is done. Interdiscursivity in particular points towards the text’s discursive and social contexts and thus allows for an answer as to why the representation takes the linguistic form it does. Accordingly, the research questions motivating any discourse-historical study of collective identity, whether synchronic or diachronic, are as follows:

      What relevant collective identities do authors communicate in particular texts at a particular moment in time, or over a particular time period?

      How are those identities, or any changes in them, communicated in concrete texts?

      Why are collective identities conceptualized and communicated in the way they are, or why have any changes taken place?

      While the first question addresses the kinds of identity that are at stake at the macro-level, the second question deals with the micro-level of texts and their linguistic description. The third question interprets and explains the findings of that description at the meso-level of discourse practice and the macro-level of social context, respectively….

    183. sandy says:

      Gordon Taggart @1.54am

      Not a secret society, a society of secrets, a subtle difference &, incidentally, one of the largest charitable organisations, only there is little publicity of same. The quiet always seem to be the most successful.
      Remain in your ignorance & believe in the myths but refrain from commenting on things you know little or nothing about.

      Opinions should be based on fact.

    184. Kangaroo says:

      Re: The Masons and their connections to power

      Book “1666 Redemption through Sin” by Robert Sepher and/or watch a version on youtube.

      It’ a Red Pill though, so if you are not open minded I suggest you don’t bother.

    185. Nana says:

      The foreign secretary Jeremy Hunt (that name known in rhyming slang!) compares Europe to the Soviet Union and Theresa May declares a Festival of Great Britain to celebrate leaving the EU and returning to the rationing of the 1950s.

      CAB to assist the DWP commit further harm

    186. Nana says:

      If even 10% of this from J Patrick is true then the WM government is guilty of gross misconduct in their #BREXIT dealings.

      Giving evidence to the Senedd’s External Affairs Committee, former diplomat Sir Emyr Jones Parry responds to Steffan Lewis AM’s claims that the UK Government isn’t listening to the devolved administrations on Brexit.

      “If they’re not going to listen, the risk to the (United) Kingdom becomes much greater.”

    187. Nana says:

      The NHS will suffer cuts worth £2.7bn after the government miscalculated the pension costs of public sector workers, new analysis by the House of Commons library has shown.

      Vets’ last-ditch warning shows insanity of anti-immigrant Brexit agenda

    188. Petra says:

      EU citizens Indyref2 vote will be crucial to the outcome. An Indyref2 being held, of course, before Brexit.

    189. Nana says:

      Explosive evidence at the High Court alleges Rebekah Brooks, Rupert Murdoch’s most senior UK employee, personally commissioned a private detective to unlawfully obtain private mobile phone information at The Sun, contradicting her past evidence…

      Lots of Brexit stuff here

    190. Petra says:

      Morning Nana. Thanks for the links X

    191. Nana says:

      Good morning Petra, I worry some links may be distressing for folks, but I believe it’s best to be informed, or at least have some idea of what may be coming our way.

      Brexit is madness on stilts, no one knows what could happen next. It’s really hard going trying to keep up with the never ending merry go round of opinions, fakery and fact, some of which is deeply worrying and almost reads like a made up horror story. Knowing what TM and the Tories have done so far anything is possible.
      Their aim is to hold Scotland by any means necessary and to create a tax haven. Blatant advertising hosting a Cayman islands stall at the conference. Greed is their God.

      Delusions of past empires!

      This is from a Canadian MP who has been pushing to uncover facts of Vote Leave’s criminal behaviour. Hugely embarrassing to UK govt. Canadian parliament working to uncover the lies & broken laws our own govt is seeking to bury

      J Lis talking about TM and Brexit on Canadian radio

    192. Nana says:

      Quite a story. Also something to bear in mind when talking about a post- #Brexit trade deal w US: UK farmers would have to compete not only against milk fm cows given BST growth hormone, but USDA subsidies, & a low-paid, undocumented migrant workforce integral to business model.

    193. sassenach says:

      Robert Peffers @9-51pm

      Once again you apply your repetitive “pish” comment to another poster’s opinion. My point may well have been not to your liking, but is your vocabulary so limited as to make usage of this favourite phrase so endemic in your posts?

      We all know about Toodle-who? and his ‘chums’and how they manipulate – my point was that if the FM made a clear case of how we will not be prevented from Indyref, the papers would have to report it (if only to argue that Nicola was wrong!).

      That is my opinion – it obviously may not be yours – but when do I ever call your opinions ‘pish’ when I disagree? Lighten up a bit, old fella!!

    194. skintybroko says:

      How the Tories of all colours see us – could this happen?

      The prime minister will invoke the Henry the VIII powers immediately on leaving the EU, purportedly for a period of two years, this will involve suspending all devolved governments and bringing the UK completely under Westminster rule. The PM has the full backing of the Unionist opposition parties as this will see the SNP killed off as they will have no function within the newly EU Departed UK.

      When challenged in the HOC by the SNP, the PM will tell them to go back to Scotland and never darken the door of Westminster again, she will be ruling for the many not the few, and the devolved regions are the few and completely irrelevant to the majority of the British people.

      Plans will already be well underway for mobilising troops to quell unrest in the devolved regions, Independence rallies will be banned, supporters forced underground as the Unionists rule with an iron fist.

      Scary thought, can they get away with it?

    195. Petra says:

      I’ve been out walking the dog and returned home to have breakfast during which I work my way through your links Nana. I’ve got my daily routine down to a T, lol.

      Distressing links? Well Nana the reality is that life itself is extremely distressing for many people, as you and I know, the very people that most compassionate Scots are trying to protect. I think it’s crucial that we’re all acquainted with the truth no matter how harsh it is. The harsher in fact the more determined I (we, I’m sure) become to get out of this hellhole. Harsh facts are also ideal for passing on to others.

      Greed IS their God and helps them to turn a blind eye to what life’s like for millions across this country. They don’t have a clue in fact. My main worry is that they’re going to go all out to decimate Scotland, toute suit, following Brexit to rid themselves of the SNP government. It’ll be all systems go for them on all fronts. Their plans for us worked out well in advance, years ago, and ready to implement.

      Well we’ve got to ruin their plans and say bye bye Westminster before next March, imo. Not long to go thank God.

    196. Hamish100 says:

      Nana – nae harm to yae. Start your own web page. Cheers

    197. Macart says:


      Mornin’ Nana. 🙂

      Good selection and I’d pick out the Irish times pices and IACES as worth folks reading for sure. Eric Joyce piece is also worth a shout. Good catches all. Did have a laugh at the idea of politicians ‘nuance’ rather than lie. 🙄

      Posted this elsewhere on the state of Ms Davidson and Mr Hunt, but I’d reckon it’d do here on the current subject matter.

      So far as Ruth Davidson’s proclamation royale is concerned? It’s pretty much guff. The debate on the Claim of Right passed through Commons without division in summer of this year and as per Richard Leonard’s same cunning plan last week? The UN charter makes a fairly clear statement on the rights of self determination of a population. Ruthie’s looking for a headline and baiting the YES movement. She does have a book to sell.

      Also? Given her contradictory and public statements on the issue? Some folk might find her latest offering a tad on the disingenuous/dishonest side.

      Then there’s Mr Hunt… Foreign Secretary? Seriously? Y’know, after Bojo you’d have thought, just how bad could the next incumbent be? Dumbest question ever. Never, EVER, underestimate the capacity for clown shoed idiocy in the current UK government.

      Some choice words from folk who know a little bit about the subject in question:

      Baiba Braze, Latvia’s ambassador, said the USSR had “ruined lives of three generations” in her country while EU membership had brought “prosperity, equality, growth, respect”. Tiina Intelmann, the Estonian ambassador, said: “EU and USSR not comparable. Soviet regime was brutal, I lived under it, comparison is insulting.”

      Vytenis Andriukaitis, Lithania’s EU commissioner took a more personal approach to his criticism.

      “Dear Jeremy Hunt,” he said. “I was born in Soviet gulag and [have] been imprisoned by KGB a few times in my life. Happy to brief you on the main differences between EU and Soviet Union. And also why we escaped the USSR. Anytime. Whatever helps.”

      Just to be absolutely clear in the midst of all this blame shuffling? There was never going to be a successful Brexit. Soft, meejum, hard or no deal. All of them were going to prove disastrous in ever increasing degrees for ever increasing numbers to the populations of these islands. ALL OF THEM. What we’re currently witnessing is the usual Tory ‘Hunt’ for a scapegoat to blame the inevitable hardship upon.

      There is only one place to look and it’s sitting on the banks of the Thames.

    198. Frank Gillougley says:

      Hamish 100 8.25

      I like Nana’s links here on this website. I think she provides an invaluable service to us who are not so well-versed in navigating our way through other outlets of news and reports and opinion etc. so that its all under one roof. Good on you, Nana.

    199. Collie says:

      When Treeza first came out with her Chequers’ Plan the EU told her that it was a bag of nails and she would need to come back with something else.

      Many weeks later she turns up at Salzburg with the exact same Plan and she is laughed out of town. She is told AGAIN that her plan is a bag of nails and she will need to come up with something else.

      Fast forward to the Tory Party Conference and she’s doing it again. She is putting forward the exact same Plan that the EU have repeatedly told her will not work.

      It is here that you start to question your own sanity. You start asking yourself, is it me who is going crazy here? is it me who is not seeing something that these Tories can?

      It is this blind insanity by so called educated Tory Politicians that is so hard to come to terms with.

      What do we see that they so clearly don’t.

      Not that I am complaining, after all, this is what will deliver our Independence.

    200. Bob Mack says:


      Yes they can. The only fly in their ointment is that MPs will still be elected from Scotland even if there is no Holyrood.

      They are more than prepared for a hard border in Ireland and the consequent violence. They will have no qualms about Scottish civil unrest.

      The simple fact is that following a hard Brexit they need Scotlands natural resources to survive. Everything will be aimed at nullifying Scotlands ability to change that.

      We in effect will become a captive population and too bad if we don’t like it.

      The stakes in this game just went up several notches.

    201. Macart says:


      Huh! I’d near forgotten about this.

    202. Breeks says:

      On behalf of all those weary people who want their country to remain in Europe, can I respectfully point out to the Scottish Government that it is now October.

      @Nana.. I appreciate your links more than you know. There are days, too many days, when it seems like your links the only Indy candles left flickering.

    203. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m not suggesting Brexit is the most drawn-out right-wing coup in recorded history, however, I think it a good idea to know what to keep an eye out for.

      Introduction [Cultures] of Post-War British Fascism]

      Cultural interventions have been a recurring feature of fascist parties and movements in Britain, just as they have been elsewhere, whether in continental Europe or further afield. Unquestionably, culture was, and remains, central to the fascist dystopian project. Indeed we might argue that ‘cultural struggle’ – in support of national and cultural ‘regeneration’ purged of the ‘degeneracy’ of liberalism – has been at the very heart of all varieties of British fascism. This is no less true for fascisms before the Second World War as for fascisms after it. To their credit, in reading British fascism as a cultural phenomenon, historians
      have started to chart the cultural visions and cultural outputs of British fascists during the inter-war period (see Gottlieb and Linehan, eds., 2004). However, the cultural landscapes of post-war British fascism have yet to be examined in any detail. The aim of this present volume is to map these cultural landscapes, identifying major contours (or layers) as reflected in the ideas, behaviour, literature, music, dress, and discourse of British post-war fascism.

    204. Giving Goose says:

      Re skintybroko

      Surely the Henry 8th (VIII) powers simply cannot apply in Scotland.
      Are these powers genuinely taken from this English monarch?
      Henry was not monarch of Scotland.
      Is there a legal basis for these laws not to apply to Scotland?

    205. Welsh Sion says:

      Q: What’s the difference between Ruth Davidson and the Leader of North Korea?

      A: One is a natural narcissist, beloved by State-run media, loves parading with military hardware, is Leader of a Party which brooks no opposition, seeks to lead the country to world isolation and has a casual interest in the truth.

      The other is Kim Jong Un.

    206. Brent Crude (Scottish oil) is a gnats baw hair of $85 a barrel,

      cue, house slave and lickspittle, Sir Ian Wood being wheeled out to do his little dance for the establishment and tell us $85pb is in some way bad and England knows best and Scotland is crap.

    207. Daisy Walker says:

      Nana, one of the reasons I come to this site ever day is to read your links.

      Many thanks. I really like that they are all together btl, and I really appreciate all the work you’ve done and continue to do, to collate them. I have learnt such a lot from them.

      Best wishes.

    208. Abulhaq says:

      @Robert Peffers
      A link to Devine’s book. Prepublication reviews have been positive. He highlights a socio-cultural revolution that changed Scotland’s people, demographic and landscape, all plundered for private profit.
      The very dark side of the buzz words ‘modernity and progress’. The North British ‘cringe’ was certainly active then.

    209. galamcennalath says:

      This short article is an interesting insight into the loony right, which is in fact includes most ordinary Tory party members!

      “…. MPs, who sat before a framed photo of Margaret Thatcher … “

      They plot to derail May’s Chequers ‘deal’ in WM.

      That frankly, is completely surreal. Before the ‘plan’ becomes a ‘deal’ it needs to be formally agreed by the EU. Does anyone believe May’s latest cherry picking plan could possibly be signed off by the EU? Especially post Salzburg.

      More and more it does look like Chequers is a red herring, a distraction, something for everyone to focus on, to get het up about. When does the real plan become apparent?

    210. CameronB Brodie says:

      As with myself, Nana may not have the technical know-how.

    211. Petra says:

      Nana what a range of brilliant links posted today. If only the MSM would do the excellent job that you’re doing. I’m running out of time so will get through them all later. Meanwhile a couple of comments on some.

      @ 6:27am – James O’Brien, LBC, getting right down to the Brexit nitty gritty, or rather flies, maggots and mites. I don’t remember vote leave informing us that this is what we’d be consuming when Treeza and Liam strike up new trade deals with the US. One just wonders what exotic insects we’ll be ingesting via their Asian and African trade deals?

      @ 6:28am – Saudies petrol pipeline through Yemen. All that death and misery for the usual “energy” reasons giving the Westminster government an outlet for their main (one of few) export, arms. Westminster along with their greedy, warmongering mates, the US and France, accounting for most of destruction of this planet. What a legacy!

      @ 6:51am – What an embarrassment for the UK and in particular the MSM in this country. The Canadians investigating what the UK is trying to cover up in relation to AIQ, with the Electoral Commission being shown up as part of the corrupt Establishment. Our reporters, excluding people like Carole Cadwalla, are the dregs of the earth.

      @6:58am – Great response from Dr Alan T Moore. We need more people like him on our side.

      @ 7:28am – Theresa May still doesn’t get it does she? Announcing her new immigration policy which will most definitely end free movement of people from EU countries. No deal Brexit heading our way. Then we can expect the country to be open to MANY people from countries agreeing to make deals with her. How will that go down with the racists south of the border? All totally unnecessary of course as she’s had the power to control immigration from the EU at her disposal for years now but decided not to use it.

      @ 7:28am – And I see Arlene Foster wants Boris Johnston to be PM and to change the Good Friday agreement FGS. Is there no end to this lunacy? In saying that I want Boris Johnston to be PM too, as it’ll put the final nail in the Westminster coffin, imo.

    212. Baldeagle58 says:

      jfngw says:

      1 October, 2018 at 9:43 pm

      There is the tall thin one with the strangely afflicted walk, very proper spoken but a bit dim. Often followed by the small dumpy one that likes to make pleasing noises, incoherent for most humans, to impress the tall thin one.

      Star Wars in case anyone thinks I’m referring to anything else, 3CPO & R2D2.

      The Farce is Strong in you

    213. galamcennalath says:


      Arlene Foster …. Is there no end to this lunacy?

      Indeed. The dangers in Ireland simmer under the surface, but the DUP and many (most?) Tories don’t care. The DUP’s only objective is to secure NI’s status are part of the UK. In fact, they appear to want strengthen the ties and reduce the pan Ireland aspects.

      Much of the Troubles had as much to do with organised crime as politics. Apparently there are criminals just champing at the bit to make the most of any opportunities again. Smuggling exists on a mammoth scale but currently a blind eye is turned for the sake of peace. This smuggling infrastructure could be the basis for future organised crime.

      Then there is the political/constitutional side. Young hotheads don’t remember the Troubles, but have heard from older guys how ‘exciting’ it all was. The potential for violence exists.

      Sensible folks understand the threats. The loonies in charge of the asylum don’t care.

    214. Nana says:

      I’m not sure if Hamish’s comment is criticism of my linking, so with that in mind I’ve asked Rev Stu for his thoughts on the matter.
      Ultimately this is his blog and he decides what is appropriate.

      If he asks me to stop I will be out of here quick as a flash 🙂 and just in case he tells me to leave here’s a few more links

      May’s ‘unilateral guarantees’ won’t protect UK citizens in Europe


      I do have the know how but not the time and Wings has a reach that I would never be able to achieve. Having been here since almost the beginning I didn’t think anyone would mind my ‘tagging’ along. But as I said it’s for Stu to decide if I’m to carry on.

    215. Brian Powell says:

      Local Councils who go for funding directly from Westminster rather than through the Scottish Government will be utterly and truly f..ked.

      Completely and forever.

    216. CameronB Brodie says:

      I don’t have the technical know-how but the rest is the same for myself. I could learn but that would take time which could be better spent. I think I’ve managed to find a balance that’s accepted by the Rev. and I think the Rev. knows I know who the boss is. 😉

    217. galamcennalath says:

      “We won’t compromise our principles to rescue the Tory party from Brexit, Guy Verhofstadt warns Theresa May.

      The European Parliament’s Brexit chief has warned Theresa May that the EU will not abandon its principles to “rescue” her party from a looming disaster of its own making.”

      Which makes a very valid point which gets lost in the chaos … this is still all about Tory party internal civil war.

      None of this needs to be happening.

    218. Fred says:

      @ Nana, thanks a million, this Sweetie-wife Hamish can fuck off & mind his ain business!!!

      Will you make Edinburgh?

    219. Bob Mack says:

      @Giving Goose,

      This is what the judgement in the Supreme Court will decide really the Continuity Bill, though I do not hold on to much hope.

      Remember the Scotland Act and the recent EU withdrawal Bill, both make it very clear that Westminster will not “Normally “interfere in devolved issues. There is the included presumption in the Act of Henry 8 powers being included. Both were passed by Parliament.

      However in legal terms recent events make the situation not normal. In such circumstances Westminster has the option to take back any powers or actions it deems appropriate for the good governance of the UK as a whole.

      If we lose the Supreme Court case we are in effect legally at the power of Westminster to do as they see fit.

      That is the real defect of our so called democracy. Numbers not wishes decides the issue.

    220. Frank Gillougley says:

      Nana 9.49

      I know Hamish meant well, as he said himself, but like myself, its just that he’s a ‘bloke’ and just mibbe lacks the finer points of tact. You have to make allowances for us blokes, ye know. Goodness knows, it was a compliment! And my comment wasn’t intended as a criticism I only realised later!

      That and the cold medium of the internet just often doesn’t describe fully how things are meant to come across. Keep on truckin’ 🙂 Hopefully, that clears that up!

    221. Thepnr says:


      Your links are an invaluable additional resource to this website. This site isn’t just so we can all sit around and moan at each other, it’s just as much about providing other sources of information than the usual crap from the MSM.

      Nobody need read any of the links and are free to scroll on by though that will totally fail to appreciate just how better informed they might become even if they read a few.

      Thanks Nana for finding these stories and putting up links to the sources, I can’t think of any better way to start my day with a cup of tea and a good read of your links 🙂

    222. Breeks says:

      Nana, I didn’t interpret it that way at all. I read it that your links are good enough to warrant their own web page, and stand on their own right as a blog within itself.

      I don’t think there as any criticism intended whatsoever, quite the reverse in fact.

    223. Stravaiger says:

      @ collie,
      @ galamcennalach

      The plan all along has been no deal and a hard Brexit so they can keep the tax havens going because the EU were about to stop them.Ive recently read Rees-Mogg’s dad’s book and it simply confirms it.

      I am also increasingly of the opinion that we need to be prepared to go underground in the event that we fail to gain independence before Brexit day.

    224. Thepnr says:


      Nana’s contribution to increasing the knowledge of readers of Wings Over Scotland was recognised by many a number of years ago now, when they all clubbed together an additional £500 during one of the Wings fundraisers for Nana to receive a Gold Wings badge as a perk.

      Not to many contributing to this website have received one of them.

    225. Stravaiger says:

      Is there going to be a meeting of Wingers on Saturday? If so, where & when?

    226. Liz g says:

      Nana @ 9. 49
      I read Hamish 100s as a compliment to your work!!
      Do you no remember that everyone wanted you to stay on the main thread when you had the crazy notion that OT was more appropriate?
      I’ve also gotten the impression that the Rev waits till after your links have a bit of time before he posts a new article.
      And I’m pretty sure that if the Rev has a problem you would have known it by now.

      Keep on Keeping on Nana… as I’ve said before, you’ve found your role in Scotland’s struggle.. and you are stuck with it now…. LOL

    227. schrodingers cat says:

      in light of the red and blue tories claim they will block indyref2………..

      i think they mean refuse a s30.

      it leaves us with only 3 choices in the future

      1. win a majority at a ge (i believe this will be sooner rather than later)

      2. hold a consultative indyref2

      3. precipitate a holyrood election.

      i’m unsure what the best route is, especially if no ge happens this year. another HE to re affirm our existing mandate?
      the only way we could win a bigger mandate in holyrood is if we stood YES candidates on the list and people agreed to vote for them.

    228. Sinky says:

      Great tweet from Ian Grant

      Brent crude at 85$ a barrel this morning. Cost of extraction at 15$ a barrel, less than half of what it was. Profits as high as they’ve been- yet virtually no revenue??!! What deal has Treasury fixed with oil cos? Anyway, doesn’t matter, Scotland will get nothing-without #indy

    229. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Bob Mack

      The stakes in this game just went up several notches.
      Bob I fear you are right the Regime undoubtedly has plans for us all. Scary times.


      Keep up with the good work I certainly appreciate it.

      Looking out my boots for Edinburgh.

    230. Lenny Hartley says:

      Sinky re oil revenues, there are severals ways of surpressing the income stream from oil and gas.
      One is for the stuff that does not get piped to Scotland, ie is taken directly to storage at Rotterdam or elsewhere and is classified as Ex Regio, so some of the revenues can be found there.
      Petroleum revenue tax used to be payable on any field developed before 1993 but now its been zero rated, what they have done is increase oil and gas companies Corporation tax to 30% and get the tax that way, as all the oil and gas companies are headquartered outside Scotland none of the revenue shows up as applicable to Scotland, it also means that if oilnand gas companies such as Shell do the normal Corporate thing of moving their tax exposure around to avoid paying tax then the UK gets less than it should do. Obviously well worth the cost to keep the sweaties believing the oil is worthless.

    231. Eileen Baird says:

      @ Nana – I think Hamish100 was trying to pay you a compliment!

      Keep on posting your links, they are a goldmine of information. I don’t always have time to read them all and rarely acknowledge how much I appreciate them. But I do look forward to them and the site comments would be a duller place without them.

      Ditto, CameronB Brodie. 🙂

    232. Proud Cybernat says:

      Nana – FWIW I read Hamish100’s post as complimentary of your contribution here on WoS, as did a number of others. Keep on trucking girl.

    233. Collie says:

      Why all this beating about the bush,,,the guy Hamish told Nana to Fuck Off!!!

      I guess he is not pleased with the amount of Links.

      Nana has every right to reply to Hamish, so we should not get involved until Nana responds directly to the unhappy Hamish.

    234. mike cassidy says:


      You are the Linkmeister!

      We are mere apprentices.

      My own humble contribution this morning.

      Big Brother is undoubtedly watching us all.

    235. Petra says:

      I reckon Hamish meant it as a compliment, Nana. Your contribution to this site is indispensable, imo, unlike those who’ve used this issue to post the usual nasty, vile tripe. So much for them attracting people on here. Converting no’s to yes.

    236. Cubby says:

      Sunday Politics Scotland = British Nationalist Chat Show.

    237. Glamaig says:

      Bob Mack :
      2 October, 2018 at 9:00 am

      Someone on here once pointed out that the Establishment/Westminster would want to hold onto Scotland even if nobody lived here.

      This is quite chilling when you think about it – they dont care whether we live here or not, or anything about us. They tolerate us as long as we vote for the ‘right’ people i.e. the Establishment-approved ones (they were quite happy when we went along with the charade by voting for the Red Pawns)

      When we vote for a party that has our, and our land’s, interests first and foremost, they lose their shit.

      We are just the inconvenient natives that occupy ‘their’ land and resources.

    238. JIm Graham says:


      I follow this blog daily but seldom contribute. The first place I head for every morning are your links. I have no idea what Hamish meant by his comment but I am certain that the information and insight that the links provide would be sorely missed if they were to disappear.

    239. Legerwood says:

      Liz g says:
      2 October, 2018 at 10:24 am
      Nana @ 9. 49

      I agree with Liz and others such as Breeks and Proud Cybernat, for example.

      The post by Hamish 100 was a bit clunky but not, I think, critical of you or your much appreciated efforts to keep us informed of what is happening outwith our bubble and we are all the better for being kept informed of these things.

    240. Bob Mack says:

      @Nan a,

      You are a mine of information. No harm to Hamish, but he or she obviously has forgotten the ability to scroll past if the item is too difficult to digest. I believe it is still a feature on most electrical devices.

      Most people I would imagine,enjoy and appreciate your informed links. Thanks.

    241. Capella says:

      @ Nana well now one of my posts has gone missing but I was just saying I too think Hamish 100 was trying to pay a compliment. I too appreciate your links – even if I don’t always say so – even if I don’t always have time to read them all.

      Ditto CameronB Brodie.

      They brighten up the comments so do keep on posting. 🙂

    242. Tinto Chiel says:

      Apart from our host’s articles, Nana’s links are my main reason for visiting this site (along with enjoying the wit and wisdom of some of our usual suspects).

      I think the Queen of Links provides a lot of important factual information which is entirely consistent with The Rev’s aims for WoS.

      “Keep on trucking, Nana doll”, he Nesbited.

    243. mike cassidy says:

      I have a dream.

      That the entire march on Saturday takes place in silence.

      With everybody doing jazz hands.

      Go on! You know I’m right.

    244. velofello says:

      Hamish needs to explain himself more fully, otherwise by his silence draw your own conclusions of his intention.

    245. jfngw says:


      It doesn’t matter if the Hamish person was being positive or negative, you have the right to post whatever you want and if it is deemed inappropriate the site owner will remove it. As he hasn’t up till now then I just assume he is quite happy with them, or agnostic anyway.

      Never be put off by posting by anyone online, often a tactic of those who want to shut down opposition to their comments, the other one is to flood the threads with nonsense.

      Giving you some jazz hands in appreciation, I know the Rev doesn’t like the clapping emoji’s anyway.

    246. Socrates MacSporran says:

      The mere fact our mainstream media takes seriously Ruth Davidson’s claim that she will be the next First Minister is perhaps the biggest example yet of what a bunch of half-wits they are.

      In the last Holyrood election in 2015, the Tories won just 7 of the 72 constituencies, by being first past the post. Leaving aside Oliver Mundell’s massive 7736 majority, the average winning majority of the other six, including Ruthie and Jackson Carlaw is 1104.

      In the other 65 constituencies, they were second in 18, an average of 6013 behind the winner – usually the SNP. They were third in a further 46 constituencies, an average of 10,173 votes behind the SNP, while in the other constituency, they finished fourth.

      In all, 24 of their 31 MSPs rely on the list vote for their places – they could not otherwise get elected. In what alternate universe is a party so-far off the pace going to recover and win in 2021?

      OK, it may well be, under Small Dick Leonard, that Labour in Scotland will collapse totally, and, the fact that Willie Rennie was first past the post in his constituency demonstrates, in some places, they will vote along party lines regardless of what species of turnip the “right” party puts up.

      But, only in her wildest dreams, can Ruth even consider being in a position to say: “No referendum ever again.”

      Time for Nicola to grasp the nettle, call Indyref2 before March 2019 and let’s be done with this Tory hellhole.

    247. Thepnr says:

      Does anyone believe that the DUP are against a hard border between NI and Eire? There appears to be at least one DUP MP who would like a wall on the border to be “as high as you like”.

      Shelagh Fogarty was responding to a caller on her LBC show on Monday but did not name the MP as the comment was made to her “off the record”.

      The contributor claimed neither the DUP nor Sinn Fein wanted to see a hard border on the island of Ireland.

      The former BBC broadcaster interjected: “Well you say the DUP don’t. I won’t name this particularly DUP MP but one said to me not that long ago… build it as high as you like… privately, build it as high as you like … that wall that border.”

      She added: “It doesn’t matter what the context is. If their passionate private view is build a wall between north and south that’s their passionate private view.

      “I only raise that comment because it puts pay to your idea nobody wants it, some people do want it.”

      The NI border remains as an intractable problem for any Brexit deal.

    248. HandandShrimp says:

      So Ruth spoke to a sparsely attended conference hall while they are queueing 2 hours early for Boris’ “fringe” meeting. It is pretty clear where the heart and soul of the party membership lies even if other MPs think Boris is an awful eedjit.

    249. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry folk, I think I may have started that. Hamish, I wasn’t having a pop, it’s just my nature. Fred, that was naught to ninety in 3 seconds, mate. 😉

    250. Sarah says:

      Nana – I’m always hugely grateful to see your links, and impressed by your ability to find the relevant pieces in the first place!!

    251. Robert Peffers says:

      @sassenach says: 2 October, 2018 at 7:56 am:
      ” … Once again you apply your repetitive “pish” comment to another poster’s opinion.”

      Quite obviously you have no idea where that particular use of the expression in that context originates, sassenach.

      ” … My point may well have been not to your liking, but is your vocabulary so limited as to make usage of this favourite phrase so endemic in your posts?”

      Seems I had best enlighten you as to who the originator of the term in such context was.

      It was none other than the English National Bard, William Shakespeare, himself. Generally thought to be the person who almost single headedly standardised the many local dialects of the English Language of his day.

      Much as did Chris Grieve with what many claim to be a made up, and much suppressed, Lowland Scottish Language. The Lallans is no more an invented language than is English.

      ” … My point was that if the FM made a clear case of how we will not be prevented from Indyref, the papers would have to report it (if only to argue that Nicola was wrong!).”

      I’m well aware what your point was, sassenach, but mine is, and you still don’t, “get it”. The papers don’t have to report anything the papers decide not to print – and there is ample evidence that they do not. Right here, on this Wings thread, Nana has posted a link to something that, in any other normal country would have been headlined in every paper and every radio & TV news broadcast – but it wasn’t:-

      Tell me, did you read, listen or view that series of six parts in any newspaper or in and broadcast from the SMSM? I know I didn’t and believe few, if any, other Wingers did either. In point of fact the Westminster paid for and supported media’s most used tool is not lies or misleading reports but is their crass omissions.

      ” … That is my opinion – it obviously may not be yours – but when do I ever call your opinions ‘pish’ when I disagree?”

      Well, sassenach, it is my stated opinion that you just did so but used a great many more words to convey your opinion that you disagree with my opinion.

      ” … Lighten up a bit, old fella!!”

      Same to you, young fella me lad.

      BTW: There is another factor you fail to grasp.

      Whether we indy supporters, or indeed Nicola and the SG/Westminster part of the SNP like it or not, Holyrood is a devolved, not yet an independent, government body. It thus, must operate under the rules laid down by the Westminster Government that purports to be the United Kingdom Government but is the, unelected as such, de facto Parliament of the Country of England that usually actually” calls itself. “The British Parliament”, while legally being, “Her Majesty’s Parliament”, under the law of England but not of Scotland.

      The real truth is that Westminster and the MSM will do as they please and the SNP/SG will not risk breaking the protocol until there is a definite, and provable, majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland to give them the legal right to defy Westminster and that will be by declaring the union is over.

    252. Bob Mack says:

      @Sorates McSporran,

      Yes I agree. Time is now of the essence. It would perhaps not change anything if Nicola was to announce indyref2 just now.

      We already know that officially Westminster will deny the request,but it is powerful politically if Westminster has to do so in full glare of publicity. It has to be demonstrable that they are denying Scotland any right to choose.

      I hate to say it ,but the Scottish people must have to look down the barrel of the gun at Westminster telling them their wishes are insignificant.

      There is no more redoubtable opponent than a Scot who is being told they are actually insignificant and do not matter.

      Up till now there are many Scots who defend the Union believing they actually matter to Westminster. If we can put that lie to bed,our numbers will grow significantly.

      Brexit is aiding that process for many. The deluded 20 -30 % will continue to believe everything they are told to endure will be in their best interests ultimately.

    253. Famous15 says:

      Ruthie has a rival.Leaflet from libdem Alex Cole-Hamilton in which even the Daily Mail praised him for speaking in an immediate connecting way(sic) at conference.

      But the most praising comment as in Halleluia was someone called Stephen Daisley in something called the Spectator was.

      “Lib Dems in England – you really need to get yourself someone likeAlex Cole-Hamilton”

      Auto correct suggested coleslaw and that might be good for this giant ego who has failed miserably to get rid of the foul smell from the Turnhouse composting unit which stinks the whole of Western Edinburgh.

    254. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      If you haven’t seen this watch Ruth the Fish being exposed by Colin McKay after her conference speech

    255. jfngw says:

      I see someone online has suggested the SNP should take up the jazz hands at Westminster since they are not allowed to clap, it certainly couldn’t make the place look any more ridiculous than currently.

      Obviously we then need to develop some jazz hand etiquette, Westminster would demand it. Out of sync hands, appreciative jazz hands. In sync hands, equivalent of slow hand clap.

    256. CameronB Brodie says:

      IMHO, a lot of support for the yoonion is down to a cultural suspicion of nationalism(s) and a confusion over the true nature of both Scottish and British nationalism(s). Ours seeks to promote liberty, where as British nationalism clearly doesn’t. This confusion is, in true colonial fashion, disseminated through the media in a strategy of hegemonic FUD.

      The British state has an appalling history of human rights abuse and colonial culture that it simply can not address or let go of (see Brexit). Scotland’s future surely deserves to be shaped by better values than an opposition to immigration and chauvinism towards Other cultures?

    257. Hamish100 says:

      In my humble opinion there was overload this morning. If there was a link so we can dip in and out rather than break the topic thread. If the rev put a new topic on WoS then your work can be lost within an hour or so.I use your links so it is just a comment. No harm intended. Cheers.

    258. Breeks says:

      jfngw says:
      2 October, 2018 at 1:04 pm

      …..Obviously we then need to develop some jazz hand etiquette, Westminster would demand it. Out of sync hands, appreciative jazz hands. In sync hands, equivalent of slow hand clap…

      I know it’s light hearted and tongue in cheek, but please, please, no.

      I don’t want the SNP amusing themselves with gestures and giggles. I want to see them grim and severe, but highly articulate and bringing down the Union. It seems with Brexit they can’t even force themselves onto the agenda, nevermind out of the Union.

    259. Robert Kerr says:

      Come on peeps.

      Nana’s links don’t need to break the thread.

      Open two tabs on your browser. One for the thread and one stopped at Nana’s links.

      Open first link on a third tab, Open second link on third tab…..

      Keep the first tab open for the thread as it develops.

      There’s always a workaround

      Thank you Nana.

    260. Jack Murphy says:

      Thanks Nana for all your links at 7am approximately,this one in particular perhaps needs a bit more info and context for Newbies to Wings Over Scotland:

      Dr Allan T Moore’s original letter of resignation from the Labour Party last month:

    261. Robert Peffers says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 2 October, 2018 at 10:26 am:

      ” … in light of the red and blue tories claim they will block indyref2………..
      i think they mean refuse a s30.”

      It doesn’t matter a Tinker’s Dam, what the blue/red/off yellow Tories think.

      (And before anyone jumps in to complain I’m disrespectful to Tinkers – A Tinker is/was an itinerant tradesperson, a Tinsmith in fact. They were not necessarily Gypsies).

      So, “A Tinker’s-dam”, was a wall of dough raised around a place that a Tinker wanted to, “Tin”, with a coat of solder. The dough like material can only be used once and must then be thrown away as worthless”.

      But I digress – The Westminster English/British nationalists have long ago spiked their own guns on that issue of allowing or not allowing referendums.

      If there were any residual doubts the matter is clearly nonsense now they have held their BR UKexit referendum that was a purely consultative referendum but has been treated by Westminster as being the stated, “People’s Will”, and thus they have created a precedent in law that the Indy movement can exploit as they please.

      There is no law in either Scottish or English law to prevent anyone holding as many referendums as they see fit. Furthermore a Section 30 Order is not a permission of ant kind. It is the agreement beforehand that both sides in a referendum question agree to abide by the result of the particular referendum.

      Otherwise all referendums are consultative but if it is good enough for Westminster to treat a consultative referendum as the will of the people then it is good enough for anyone else.

      The real telling factor is that, unlike in the Kingdom of England, the people of Scotland are legally sovereign and thus if a majority of the people of Scotland decide to do anything whatsoever as a legally sovereign people then that becomes the sovereign will of the people of Scotland.

      What is more by not contesting in the Supreme Court that under Scots law the people are legally sovereign there is now no way for Westminster to prevent anything a majority of the people of Scotland, (or a properly elected government that represents the people of Scotland with a people’s mandate), decide to do.

      As usual the Westminster Blowhards are blowing hot air.

      If and when Nicola Sturgeon decides to call a referendum then there is no way, either the Westminster Government or anyone else including Nicola Sturgeon, can prevent it from happening. It is, after all the wish of the legally sovereign people of Scotland’s decision.

    262. Robert Kerr says:


      The rev already covered this letter

      No worries.

    263. manandboy says:

      With Dark Money, data harvesting & micro-targeting, and every form of lying known to mankind used in campaigns , Elections and Referendums in the UK are now, under the Tories, irremediably compromised and susceptible to fixing, rigging and fraud.
      But we’re still a democracy, right?


      “American donors are giving money to US fundraising bodies that pass the donations to four thinktanks in Britain. A Guardian analysis has established that $5.6m (£4.3m) has been donated to these US entities since 2008.

      The Institute of Economic Affairs (IEA), the Adam Smith Institute, Policy Exchange and the Legatum Institute have all received financial support from US backers via this route.

      The disclosure leaves the thinktanks facing questions as to whether wealthy Americans have undue influence in British politics, particularly over the form Brexit takes.”

    264. orri says:

      All we’re waiting for is the Lib Dems to get in on the act with a manifesto pledge to outlaw indyrefX and the unionists will point to a combined mandate should their vote total be over 50%.

      Never mind that differential turnout in an FPTP election means that’s no a trustworthy result. They’ll play down their game in the hope that in seats where the SNP are certain to win the turnout will be low.

      Obviously the opposite that was narrowly missed where the SNP got just short of 50% themselves and with the Greens were over will not be mentioned. And if that’s repeated then they’ll definitely ignore it too.

      It’s possible that the SNP could take nearly every single seat in Scotland again and whichever unionist party is in power will treat it as a referendum and contrive to deny the will of the people.

    265. gus1940 says:

      Given the threats and intimidation being directed towards Scotland’s right to hold an Independence Referendum is it not time representation was made to The UN?

      Does The UN or any of the other international bodies have a document which defines what constitutes a fair election covering the right to a vote, the verification of entries on the electoral roll, the security of Postal Voting,the actual voting procedure and the administration of vote counting?

    266. Clootie says:


      …for what it is worth – I enjoy your links and often find articles I would have missed but for you.
      I don’t see the problem as the choice is simple as with any other poster with an “established name/ reputation” – you either know you want to read or you know you want to skip.

    267. schrodingers cat says:

      im well aware, i pointed out that now the tories are proposing to refuse a s30 our options include holding a consultative indyref2.

      i didnt say we couldnt, the opposite in fact

    268. jockmcx says:

      jfngw says:
      2 October, 2018 at 1:04 pm

      I see someone online has suggested the SNP should take up the jazz hands at Westminster.

      I had a vision of the snp sitting there dressed as the
      black & white minstrels.

      I am not a bad person!

      p.s. Nana & Robert Peffers = good stuff.

    269. schrodingers cat says:

      the tory position isnt definate, last time they didnt refuse outright, treeza said no the now.

      i believe that when nicola does relaunch indyref2, her plan is to request a s30. at which point the pm will need to reply officially yes or no.

      if the reply is no, then i am simply asking what the best course of action is for us to take? ie a consultative indyref2 or another he?

    270. Bob Mack says:

      Boris Johnson, misty eyed at the prospect of returning to pre EU days in good old blighty.

      At this juncture I would like to remind Boris and the readers here that prior to joining the EU, Britain was the most common user of IMF, because our economy was so bad post 1945.

      The most memorable was I suppose Callaghan and Labour going cap in hand, but through the forties,fifties and sixties, every government held out the begging bowl to prevent National insolvency.

      Better times eh ?

    271. schrodingers cat says:

      gus1940 says:
      is it not time representation was made to The UN?
      yes, once wm officially refuses a s30, we should do exactly that. i doubt it will make much difference, but we should do it anyway

    272. Giving Goose says:

      Facinating thread going on at

      See comments.

      Search for “Finbarr the Fair” and conversation re NI, DUP & Scotland.

    273. schrodingers cat says:

      after bojo’s speech, regardless of what deal she gets it wont make it to the hoc before her leadership is challenged, a no deal tory pm (bojo or mogg) will win

      a ge looks very likely with a tory no deal pm winning.

      that still wont solve the issue of what we do if wm still refuses a s30.

      however, winning back a few of the seats (especially ross tompsons) would strengthen our case and make a refusal more difficult for wm

    274. manandboy says:

      The Brexit Leave vote in England was in effect a vote for English independence. But we will never hear Theresa May insisting it must be respected.

      The Tories have their own agenda, for the few. Under cover of Brexit ‘negotiations’, they continue to pursue it.

      The bottom line for the Establishment/Tories, is get rid of the sick, the poor, the disabled, the long-term unemployed, and anyone else who is in receipt of benefit cash which could be going to the wealthy elite.

      The Tories have seen leaving the EU as the door to adopting US Republicanism. Get rich – and let the poor look after themselves.

    275. galamcennalath says:

      Re democratic means to achieve Indy, consider Ireland.

      Firstly some caveats. Irish independence involved bloodshed and definitely don’t want that. Also, it was 100 years ago and democratic benchmarks have changed (everywhere but WM).

      Ireland moved to independence talks with a mandate won by most seats in FPTP. It should be remembered that in the 1918 GE the pro Independence Party received 47% of votes which gave a landslide via FPTP.

      However FPTP at WM, even with its inbuilt perversions, is still the benchmark by which governments are formed and huge changes made. (May formed a government and is pushing Brexit with 42.4% vote)

      If the SNP hold the majority of WM seats that is, by WM’s own standards, a significant mandate. If it were combined with 50+% vote then it is mandate enough to demand independence negotiations.

    276. Daisy Walker says:

      A random thought re henry 8th laws.

      He died about 1547 ..

      Treaty of Union between Scotland and England 1707.

      Scottish Law protected as separate entity from England’s at time of signing.

      People of Scotland Sovereign.

      The monarch of Scotland has a legal responsibility to protect the Sovereign will of the People of Scotland. (I think that’s roughly it – could be a wee bit out).

      In view of the above – I don’t see how WM can inflict any legislation on us that is pushed through by means of the Henry 8th Laws.

      Totally illegitimate.

      Best wishes to all.

    277. sassenach says:

      Robert Peffers @12-42

      Oh my, you really don’t like anyone to disagree with your own ‘gold-standard?’ opinions , do you?

      Your verbose attempt to ‘put me right’, you will be pleased to know, has no effect at all.

      In the words of Bill, your favourite English writer – “You may pish off”.

    278. schrodingers cat says:

      the problem for wm defying the scottish voters wishes is it will push even more towards yes

    279. Giving Goose says:

      Daisy Walker

      Re Henry 8th, totally agree.
      I wonder if this is a card up the sleeve of the Scottish Government and I’m sure that the English Government will be aware of the card.

    280. Bob Mack says:

      @Daisy Walker,

      Henry 8 laws are being used to describe a situation written into the Scotland Act 1998.
      It basically means that Westminster has controlling power over any area in Scotland.

      It has been made legitimate because at the time it was agreed by Scotlands Politicians who happened to be mainly Unionists.

      It is not Henry 8 laws as such ,but has similar functions and outcomes within the Act itself. Power devolved is power retained.

    281. Liz g says:

      Daisy Walker @ 2.52
      Just a random thought as well Daisy..
      But it could be argued that in 2014 the Scots voted for the Westminster Parliament to continue to make Laws for Scotland..
      In the full knowledge that the Westminster Parliament claims the right to make or unmake any laws.
      So unless and until Scotland removes from Westminster the right to make Laws for Scotland they can and will use Henry vlll Laws if they want too!

    282. jfngw says:

      Oh good David Mundell wants to appear for the Dugdale defence. It will be a chance to question him on his probity. He could have to answer questions on his truthfulness, hope he hasn’t anything to hide. I hope he has thoroughly thought this through, there seems to be numerous examples online that may make interesting input.

      After all another Scottish MP was basically deemed to be a liar by a judge.

    283. jfngw says:

      Looks like the member for Aberdeen South is turning into a groupie for the member from Uxbridge and South Ruislip. He must be confident that Aberdeen South is a hotbed of right wing isolationists that will return him to Westminster.

      Is Aberdeen South a hotbed for British Nationalism, we will wait and see.

    284. North chiel says:

      Agree entirely with “ Daisy Walker@ 0252 pm “. This goes no the heart of “ the claim of right & sovereignty of the people of Scotland “. No Scots laws should be amended or changed unless agreed by a majority of Scots MP’s at Westminster especially in view of EVEL. No other MP’s at Westminster should be able to vote on Laws which relate to Scotland due to EVEL.. The introduction of EVEL brings the “ so called U.K. parliament “ into disrepute. Scots law was guaranteed in perpetuity “ under the Union treaty , therefore existing laws , and changes to Scots law should only be made via a majority of Scots MP’s . Henry 8th laws related SOLELY to the Parliament of England prior to 1707 and “ apparently “ the Parliament of England “ ceased to exist “ after the Acts of union ?

    285. orri says:

      If the people of Scotland are truly sovereign then our politicians have no power to diminish that without our say so.

      As that is so any legislation passed by Westminster for Scotland may be challenged.

      Which means that Westminster need to take care when and where the interfere in our land.

      Devolution is a lie unionists tell themselves to make believe they have somehow fooled us.

      And powers Westminster and Holyrood have over Scotland, and the EU and local councils for that matter, evolve or devolve from the mandate granted them by the people of Scotland.

      Westminster can’t legally take back powers from Holyrood as those powers were transferred with the agreement of the people of Scotland either directly as the result of referenda or as negotiation between Holyrood and Westminster.

      One exception to that might be EU law where powers may move between Holyrood and Brussels due to automatically due to changes in out membership. That that has to be explicitly stated emphasises a point about the bar on Holyrood legislating contrary to international treaties. If such a thing needs stated it logically follows that the UK can’t simply enter into an international agreement involving “devolved” powers without the agreement of Holyrood in Scotland’s case. It would find itself unable to implement them.

      Yes Westminster might be able to force said legislation by claiming unusual circumstances but even then it’s something that will be challenged soon enough.

      As to the S30. Holyrood can’t change the constitution of the UK state without one. In this case it can’t change the statutes that define where the borders of the UK run in English, Welsh or NI law. However should there be a successful Yes result then the sovereignty of the people of Scotland would mean that it can change the laws of Scotland to redraw said UK border to no longer include Scotland. With an S30 it could make that change.

      Personally there’s a risk that without an agreement unionists will try to pull a boycott and artificially inflate the size of the electorate so that even if more than half of those eligible to vote do so for independence they will say it’s less. They’ve got previous on that one.

      They’ll do that with a straight face and ignore how narrow the EU result was.

    286. yesindyref2 says:

      I don’t often have time to click on the links, maybe one or two, but I always read the one or two liner you put with them, and the descriptive link itself.

      From them I know what’s going on without having to wade through ‘tinternet every day.

      If there’s a lot going on, then there’s a lot of links for breakfast 🙂 Pass the sauce.

      Err, so thanks!

    287. ScotsRenewables says:

      > Dear _________

      > Thank you for your email letting us know of your concerns, and for giving us the opportunity to comment.
      > On the morning of Sunday 30 September a group gathered on the Esplanade at Stirling Castle. A member of the Castle staff, understanding this to be an unauthorised demonstration, followed our normal procedure and engaged with the group to tell them that they would not be able to congregate on the Esplanade. The group were also informed that we were anticipating a busy day at the Castle and as such we work to ensure visitor flow and access is not disrupted. Police Scotland were called as the group had not moved on when asked to by a member of staff. This is our standard procedure.

      > Prior permission is required to hold any event at our Properties in Care. We receive many requests to hold activities at our sites and each case is considered on an individual basis. On this occasion, the group had made no prior approach to the site to seek permission for use of the Castle Esplanade, as would be the normal practise with tour groups of a similar size.

      > We can advise you that your complaint has been addressed at stage 1 of our complaint procedure, a copy of which can be found on our website (

      > Kind regards

      > Historic Environment Scotland


      Thank you for your reply.

      My understanding is that this was not a group seeking to ‘use’ the Esplanade, they were merely visiting/passing through. It was not an ‘event’ until your staff decided to make it into one and subsequently get themselves portrayed in an unfavourable light on social media.

      You also talk about a ‘tour group of a similar size’ , yet this was no larger than, say, a couple of families visiting together, and could in no way be considered a ‘tour group’.

      In the light of this, and as a taxpayer who helps to pay your wages, I have to say I am not satisfied with the way my complaint has been addressed, and would respectfully request that you to pass this correspondence through to Stage 2 of your complaint procedure.

      Best regards,

    288. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. the constitution. I have asked before whether Scots law is subordinate to English law. Do we have any constitutional lawyers in the house? Asking for a friend.

      Debunking the Idea of Parliamentary Sovereignty: The Controlling Factor of Legality in the British Constitution


      This article explores the idea of Parliamentary sovereignty in British constitutional theory. Two general explanations for this idea are considered: firstly, that the existence of a sovereign entity is a conceptually necessary precondition for the existence of a state or constitution; secondly, that Parliament is sovereign, if it is, in virtue of a rule of recognition whose existence and content may be empirically determined. The former account, it is suggested, looms large in orthodox British constitutional theory but cannot be sustained.

      Herbert Hart’s version of the latter account is examined by reference to the decision in Jackson v Attorney General but is also found wanting. Given the inadequacy of these accounts, it is contended that the idea of Parliamentary sovereignty is misconceived. Building on insights in the work of Hart and Dworkin, it is argued that the British constitution instead rests on the ideal of government under law or the principle of legality. The putative value of legality, it is contended, will shape or control the many different principles that condition the exercise of official power.

      Executive Summary
      The current UK constitutional settlement

      An important theme in much of the literature is that the UK lacks a codified constitution; and the international peculiarity of this position. The absence of a UK codified constitution is regarded as of substantial significance in many accounts – but not all. There is disagreement about whether existing UK arrangements are desirable, or whether a codified constitution of some kind should be adopted. It is often held that establishing a codified UK constitution, where none already exists, would be a formidable task.

      The antiquity and continuity of the UK constitution are frequently accentuated; so too is its flexibility. It is suggested that the lack of a critical moment at some point in history provided by military defeat, colonial independence or revolution, helps explain why the UK does not have a codified constitution. As well as references to the long endurance and resilience of the un-codified UK constitution, the literature contains discussion of notable codification exercises in UK (or rather, English) history.

      At the heart of most interpretations of the UK constitution lie assessments of ‘parliamentary sovereignty’; a controversial subject, with disputes about both its nature and desirability. Some believe that a codified constitution could be compatible with continuation of parliamentary sovereignty. However, the more commonly held view is that there is in practice a direct choice between the either the retention of parliamentary sovereignty or the establishment of a codified constitution. There is a debate over whether and how Parliament can create a codified constitution, given the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty. Another key theme in the literature assessing the UK constitution is the idea that it has in recent decades – and particularly since 1997 – been subject to increasing change.

      There is a view that as a consequence of cumulative changes since the 1970s parliamentary sovereignty has been eroded. Associated with the narrative of constitutional change is a parallel one of pathology, of problems that have developed within the UK settlement. There is consideration of the idea that substantial constitutional change, especially since 1997, might lead on to full codification; and whether it might be a means of resolving problems associated with the pathology narrative….


      Roy Stone de Montpensier

      The purport of this argument is that Dicey and other legal positivists, Austin and Bentham among them, have propounded a spurious doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty because they have uncritically accepted a mistake of Blackstone, who in turn has mistakenly construed Coke’s remarks on the nature and analysis of sovereignty, or better, the supremacy, of the High Court of Parliament….

    289. Mountain Shadow says:


      The Tory Leader (Branch Office) at Westminster has agreed to appear in support of the former Labour Leader (Branch Office) against Rev Stu. Red and Blue together as ever.

      Opens up the intriguing prospect of Rev’s Lawyers cross examining the Governor General.

      I have a feeling a further crowd funder may be needed.

    290. schrodingers cat says:

      denying a s30 puts wm on constitutionally unstable ground. that is why treeza didnt refuse it, she said not now and then called a ge.

      ruth ruled out wm agreeing to an indyref2 today, but that isnt the same as refusing a request. eg, it is illegal to steal from the coop, it isnt illegal to say you intend to steal.

      her comment was a pitch to labour unionists after richard leonards promise yesterday to include such a ban in uk labours manifesto at next ge. (next month probably)

      this face off is coming very soon. but this isnt it. this is political posturing. nothing more.

      Im reminded of salmonds comment that when he first met cameron after the 2011 he, camerons opening comment was, there wont be a referendum……….

      that went well

    291. Fireproofjim says:

      Edinburgh March
      The weather forecast for Saturday seems ideal.
      Mild, gentle breezes, mostly sunny in the afternoon.
      I note Jil Stephenson in one of her regular anti-SNP rants in the Evening News expresses doubts that as many as 35,000 will turn up.
      Well, I’ll be there anyway.

    292. Tackety Beets says:

      Daisey Walker @ 2.52 pm

      Indeed Daisey , I have often wondered about the legality of WM using those Henry 8th Power/Laws in WM which is allegedly the “UNION Parliament”.

      I often considered asking on here, but alas refrained.
      RP to my knowledge has not mentioned them ?

      I admit I could have missed it of course.

      I wonder if the SNP are storing such matters ready for the constitutional blow out that must now be iminent?


    293. CameronB Brodie says:

      Are Scottish and English law the same? Which one has more relevance to Scots? What opportunity do Scots have to change English law, under the current constitutional settlement?


      After 1992, “the year that was”2 in constitutional law, it appeared to many that the High Court had adopted a new grundnorm of constitutional interRretation: “parliamentary sovereignty” was replaced with “sovereignty of the people”.3
      This change was most marked in the “free speech” cases4 which appeared to rely upon a concept that lawyers in the Westminster tradition had long been proud to do without, namely, individual rights. While some celebrated with promises of a new sense of citizenship and a revitalised democratic tradition, others saw these promises as empty and warned that judicial implication of rights threatened positivist legal values and judicial independence.6

      Sovereignty in British Legal Doctrine

      The ‘rule of the recognised helm’: How does European
      Union membership impact upon UK Parliamentary

    294. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I have, perhaps stupidly, allowed myself to get into a Facebook argument on Independence with several of our Orange/Rangers-supporting/British and proud of it bretheren.

      My God, the stupidity of these people. You provide proof of something, they simply refuse to accept it. They are right, we are British and British we will stay.

      And, if we are ever daft enough to become independent, we will be a third world country in no time. This is their argument and stance.

      These people can breed and vote – HELP. We are awe doomed!!!

    295. schrodingers cat says:

      that scotland has a moral, legal and constitutional right to vote for its own independence isnt in question.

      it is what we do about it if this is refused?

    296. Dr Jim says:

      *Blow for Ruth Davidson* as it’s revealed that 40% of Rangers supporters now back Independence

      Now you wouldn’t have seen that a year ago

    297. yesindyref2 says:

      @Socrates MacSporran
      Just tell them that when “Britain” leaves the EU, Britain will be a third country to the EU.

    298. North chiel says:

      “ Dr Jim @0554 pm “ . If I recall correctly ( perhaps rev Stuart could confirm) a poll circa 2014 had Rangers fan base circa 38 percent in favour of Independence. Notwithstanding and counter to “ popular belief” a significant proportion of Rangers fans undoubtedly back Independence. A number of election results in Govan ( and Glasgow was a “ yes City) would confirm this . If it were not the case the likelihood of Independence for Scotland would be significantly diminished.

    299. Orri says:

      Thing about Rangers is some of their travelling support markedly disappeared around a time when it might have swung indyref1. Probably not but nonetheless.

      At the same time it’s kind of clear they were picked as an example to be made by Osborne and the Treasury. Far less risk than a proper team from the FA leagues. In fact putting them out the game was serendipity given the aforementioned reduction in followers.

      Not to mention the demonstrable lack of favouritism helping secure the votes of the paradoxical pro-Irish anti-Scottish independence stance from some Celtic supporters.

    300. galamcennalath says:

      Less than three weeks to the critical EU summit with the last chance to show a deal is imminent.

      Meanwhile, at the Tory conference where party unity would be the norm, they fight like tom cats in a sack. The two factions at each other tooth and nail. On the main issues, they are more or less where they were months ago.

      Will May be booed on her key note speech?

      Scotland must move to independence under the unfolding circumstances. Never will our enemies be in such disarray again.

    301. Orri says:

      I fully expect an enthusiastic rendition of God Save the Queen with them giving it welly singing the rebellious Scots to crush verse even if the music stops.

      After all it’s only us nats they’re after.

    302. Shinty says:

      Socrates MacSporran says @ 5.20pm
      “They are right, we are British and British we will stay”

      I’ve never thought as ‘British’ being a nationality, it’s a made up name, much like, Eastern European, Asian, North or South American etc. Nationalities they are not.

      The fact that WM has enforced ‘British’ on us all , does not give it any more value, the term is IMHO completely meaningless, even although it is forced upon all of us on these islands.

    303. Macart says:

      @Socrates MacSporran

      Pretty much.

      These are the type of voter whose mind won’t be and can’t be changed. Their belief in their world view is total. The economic misery. The loss of jobs, of rights, of dignity is literally going to have to camp itself in their livingroom before they even take a pause. Hell, mibbies not even then.

      Save your sympathies and your arguments for those who want and need them. There’s plenty of folk out there who voted no last time round looking desperately for some hope in the middle of this omnishambles.

      On the bright side for those bods you’ve been chatting to, they have an option. They can freely move out to climes and systems of government they find more to their liking. I’m sure their unswerving loyalty is and has been appreciated. They will be welcomed with open arms… Won’t they?

      I also very much doubt that anyone will attempt to stop them.

    304. Socrates MacSporran says:

      What worries me about this battle is, I live in God’s Orange County of Ayrshire.

      The rest of Scotland might become independent, and we will end up with the Province of Ayrshire still tied to England, as happened when Ireland was partitioned.

      That lot would probably like that.

    305. Tackety Beets says:

      Oops Sorry Daisy, Pred Text adds an e but not to Kay(e)

    306. schrodingers cat says:

      Will May be booed on her key note speech?

      very possibly. treeza may have majority support from her mps, but the rank and file tory members were watching and loving bojo. not the official conference.

      she will fall flat on here face tomorrow, as planned

      i cant see how this cant be viewed as a leadership challenge

      we now have an official no deal tory candidate in place. we are days away from the official challenge.

      ruthies star has now fallen, ross thompson will lead a no deal brexit scottish tory party.

      a ge is now almost a certainty.

      good. i expect the snp to make gains, modest perhaps, but gains none the less.

    307. schrodingers cat says:

      btw, bojo completely rubbished treezas position, enough for him to be expelled from the party

    308. Ghillie says:

      THAT was a damning statement by John Snow!

      First time in his experience that Channel4 News has been denied an interview with a Prime Minister as party leader at their party conference.

      NOT a happy man !

    309. Robert Peffers says:

      @says: 2 October, 2018 at 1:56 pm:

      ” … i didnt say we couldnt, the opposite in fact”

      I never said you were not saying so, schrodingers cat. I was simply amplifying that they couldn’t stop a referendum under any circumstances.

    310. yesindyref2 says:

      Not only that, I live in a 75% NO part of Ayrshire 🙂 Ha!

    311. Shinty says:

      Socrates MacSporran, nay worries, Ayrshire North & Arran still voted for Patricia Gibson SNP MP.

      So, maybe not as orange as you think.

    312. HandandShrimp says:

      After Sunday with Marr I’m not surprised that May is in hiding. Ruth probably said to her “Do what I do – go invisible”

    313. jfngw says:

      Oh look! Boris Johnson has a new minder, I think his name is Fredo.

    314. schrodingers cat says:


      agreed, we can hold indyref2 without a s30, but would that be the best option?

      i merely asked the question.

      im open to be convinced.

    315. doug_bryce says:

      Ross Thomson acting as body guard for Boris…

      I wonder his remain voting constituency in Aberdeen South feel ? Oh how I will laugh when this dick head gets voted out.

    316. Lenny Hartley says:

      Socratees, your on yer own pal, Arran will declare UDI and join Scotland ???
      Higher percentage of Electorate on Arran are SNP members than the National average ???

    317. HYUFD says:

      schrodingers cat On current Holyrood polls the SNP and Greens would lose their majority and Sturgeon could only stay FM and prevent a Labour and LD executive if Davidson decided to support her rather than Leonard as First Minister. Davidson will of course demand no indyref2 as the price of that support

    318. HYUFD says:

      Ghille C4 News is the most leftwing broadcaster in the UK so no surprise, however Boris’ sister Rachel was on it earlier

    319. HYUFD says:

      gus1940 The UK is a permanent member of the UN Security Council with a veto on any resolutions put forward by the UN. The UN can take no action therefore against France, the UK, the USA, China and Russia in real terms as all have vetos as permanent members of the Security Council

    320. Socrates MacSporran says:

      HI FUD – You don’t half post pish pal.

      In the latest published Holyrood poll, the SNP are on 44%, a 20% lead over the Tories, and on the list polling, they are 12% ahead of second-placed LABOUR.

      Troll on, there’s a good boy.

    321. schrodingers cat says:

      HYUFD says:
      On current Holyrood polls the SNP and Greens would lose their majority

      46.6% result in 2016
      presently 44% in latest polls and rising again

      but if yes candidates were to stand as list candidates in 5 regions, and the yes supporters voted for them, the unionists would get wiped of the map. a yesgroup would be the opposition, not the tories. they would get relegated to the cheap seats at the back

    322. Robert Peffers says:

      @Daisy Walker says: 2 October, 2018 at 2:52 pm:

      A random thought re henry 8th laws.
      He died about 1547 ..
      Treaty of Union between Scotland and England 1707.
      Scottish Law protected as separate entity from England’s at time of signing.
      People of Scotland Sovereign.
      The monarch of Scotland has a legal responsibility to protect the Sovereign will of the People of Scotland.”

      100% smack on, Daisy Walker and not a single letter out.

      As I’ve harped on about for what seems like forever – if a recognisable majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland give their legally elected representatives a mandate that makes, whatever that mandate is, every bit as legal as the ONLY other Kingdom in the United Kingdom’s legally sovereign single person being given a mandate by their elected members of parliament.

      That’s the big thing – in the three country Kingdom of England the Queen of England is that legally sovereign person. It is a tenet of only the English rule of law that the monarch of the Kingdom of England must legally delegate her sovereignty to the parliament of England but that was the law of England in 1688 and thus before there was an official United Kingdom.

      Furthermore, not only does Article of Union Number 19 specifically states that the two legal systems must remain forever independent but what sat at Westminster on 1 May 1707 was not the parliament of the Kingdom of England and not a single Member of a Parliament of England has been elected since that day. Yet in practice Westminster runs as the de facto Parliament of the country, (not the kingdom), of England.

      Now consider the recent refusal of Westminster to contest the Scottish Claim of Right in the Westminster instigated Supreme Court. They thus have acknowledged the Scottish Claim Of Right. That means all that is required for a properly elected body appointed by and recognised, by the legally sovereign people of Scotland to declare the Union is over and it legally is over – BUT FIRST WE NEED THAT RECOGNISED MAJORITY OF THE LEGALLY SOVEREIGN PEOPLE OF Scotland.

      For all we know that majority already exists and may indeed have existed after Indyref1. Whoever heard of such large majority returns of postal votes? Nowhere in the World has there ever been such large percentages of postal votes retuned and only from certain areas.

    323. robertknight says:

      Just seen the core audience for Treeza Maybot’s keynote speech doing a warm up routine…

    324. HYUFD says:

      Socrates MacSporran That poll only confirms my point, the SNP are on 44% on the constituency poll, 2.5% less than the 46.5% they got in 2016 and on the list polling the SNP are on 33%, 7.5% less than the 41.5% they got in 2016. The SNP and Greens combined on the list are on 44%, still 4% less than the 48.3% they got combined in 2016.

      So my point remains, Sturgeon will be relying on Ruth Davidson to stay First Minister at the next Holyrood elections, Patrick Harvie’s support will not be enough for a majority of MSPs

    325. Breeks says:

      Dan Huil says:
      2 October, 2018 at 8:07 pm
      Time’s up:


      Aye, two time zones alright. Ireland in the 21st Century, and Northern Ireland stuck in the 1950’s with the rest of BritNatland.

    326. Fred says:

      @ Socrates, Rangers dropped the Glasgow bit from its title years ago. YES city anyhow!

    327. HYUFD says:

      Schrodingers Cat No they wouldn’t, the Yes Group would simply takes MSPs on the list from those which would have gone to the SNP and Greens, the Unionist number of MSPs would be unaffected

    328. Robert Peffers says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 2 October, 2018 at 2:07 pm:

      ” … if the reply is no, then i am simply asking what the best course of action is for us to take? ie a consultative indyref2 or another he?”

      The point I’ve been attempting to make is that ALL referendums are consultative unless the parties concerned agree beforehand that the opposing sides will abide by the normally consultative process of referendums. The thing is the term referendum means only, “to refer the matter to the electorate”, and it is normal for that to be legally consultative.

      To agree to abide by what the electorate votes for is the anomaly but the recent EU referendum by the Westminster Parliament had no prior agreement to abide by the result returned by the electorate.

      The decision to abide by the result is only the decision of the Westminster Government and I’d guess that if it had been a public vote to remain the Westminster Government would have ignored it and, as there was no prior agreement, how does Westminster prove they would have respected a remain vote?

      So if it goes to a court to decide then the court can only come up with that decision. That makes the EU Referendum a precedent in law and English law, in particular is mainly based upon precedents.

      So I would assume that the SG would hold an independence referendum and play Westminster at their own game. If it returned a stay in the union majority ignore it as a consultative only referendum.

      If it returned a end the union result do as Westminster did and claim it is the stated will of the legally sovereign people of Scotland and that is reinforced by the fact the people of Scotland are legally sovereign but the Queen of England is legally the sole sovereign person in the Kingdom of England but who must legally, (in England only), delegate her sovereign powers to the Parliament of England that hasn’t actually existed since 1 May 1707.

    329. schrodingers cat says:

      HYUFD says:
      No they wouldn’t, the Yes Group would simply takes MSPs on the list from those which would have gone to the SNP and Greens, the Unionist number of MSPs would be unaffected
      in the 5 regions, unionist parties won 39 out of 40 list msp seats. the snp won none. go figure. yes would presently only replace one green. tough titty for him

      44% as opposed to the 45% the snp got in 2011 and won an overall majority? id take these odds.

      the only losers from yes msp candidates in these 5 regions would be unionists. massively

    330. Robert Peffers says:

      sassenach says: 2 October, 2018 at 3:07 pm:

      ” … Oh my, you really don’t like anyone to disagree with your own ‘gold-standard?’ opinions , do you?”

      Oh! for goodness sake grow-up, sassenach, you are behaving like a primary one bully.

      Matter of fact I am on record here on Wings as stating I encourage debate and in point of fact have been attacked by closed minded numpties like you for doing so with what your kind decides, all by yourselves, as, “Trolls”, simply because they do not agree with your personal perspectives.

      Now get this – it is you attempting to pick a fight with me and it is you objecting to my choice of phrase in a reply to you. In other words it is you attempting to silence me – not me attempting to silence you. You are welcome, at any time to disagree with me on anything you please and I most certainly will not tell you to piss off.

      Wings will wither and die if it becomes a cosy wee club of someone stating something and everyone else posting, “Aye! Me too”. However, please stick to political arguments and matters of interest to Scots and Scotland. Which your current childish foot stamping most certainly is not.

      I repeat grow-up.

      Your verbose attempt to ‘put me right’, you will be pleased to know, has no effect at all.
      In the words of Bill, your favourite English writer – “You may pish off

    331. ronnie anderson says:

      Aw ffur fek sake STV 9pm Queen of the World elevation into the stratosphere coming next .

    332. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      HYUFD at 7.48
      Which polls are those?
      The ones that had Hilary Clinton winning and Mrs May miles ahead?
      The ones that had Remain ahead until the votes were counted?
      The ones that had independence at 28% before we started to campaign? (when the SNP had 25,000 members).
      Away and stop annoying us. Nobody takes you seriously.

      In our little area of this country one adult in twenty is now a member of the SNP (and lots of those are English immigrants).

      Actually there have been no “current polls” of any importance published in Scotland. Which tells us all we have to know.

    333. Rock says:

      sandy says:
      1 October, 2018 at 8:42 pm

      “Rock & HYFUD;

      Recommend a bucket of water for you both. Immerse your head in same, breath deeply then relax & stay there. Will work wonders. (For the rest of us.)”

      Hello Sandy.

      Do you think Nicola will hold an independence referendum before Brexit has been completed?

    334. Rock says:

      sassenach says:
      1 October, 2018 at 8:27 pm

      “Socrates MacSporran @8-09

      FUD is obviously the only one on here who actually READS Rock’s gibberish – then acts as tag teamster. Prats, the both of them.”

      Hello sassenach.

      Do you think Nicola will hold an independence referendum before Brexit has been completed?

    335. Rock says:

      Hamish100 says:
      1 October, 2018 at 11:21 pm


      rock disnae like the First Minister nor Independence supporting papers. who could have guessed.”

      Hello Hamish100.

      You are the only poster on this site who thinks Nicola will hold an independence referendum before Brexit has been completed.

      Unless you have changed your mind?

      Even Robert Peffers, who pontificates on any topic known to man, has no guts to go on the record and say whether Nicola will hold an independence referendum before Brexit has been completed.

    336. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      There should be no SNP candidates on the list at the next election – only “Independence Coalition” candidates made up of an agreed coalition of SNP, SSP, Solidarity and Green candidates.

      That way the huge SNP FPTP vote would have no effect on the list and the split in the independence vote among various bodies which allowed useless unionists (like Annie Wells FFS)to creep in when there actually was a bigger independence vote than a unionist one couldn’t happen.

      I have no doubt independence would have a substantial majority in our Parliament if this was done

    337. Rock says:

      HYUFD says:
      2 October, 2018 at 8:34 pm

      “So my point remains, Sturgeon will be relying on Ruth Davidson to stay First Minister at the next Holyrood elections, Patrick Harvie’s support will not be enough for a majority of MSPs”

      Rock (3rd December 2017 – “The faithful pet”):

      “There is no guarantee that the SNP will get a majority in 2021. In my view, it is highly unlikely. The black arts department of the British establishment will make sure it doesn’t happen.”

    338. HYUFD says:

      schrodingers cat That would require the SNP and Green voters to switch en masse to some Yes ticket on the list, in retaliation of course Unionists would soon set up a No ticket which would equally pick up large numbers of MSPs on the list given like the Yes ticket it would not have stood and won any constituencies under FPTP.

    339. HYUFD says:

      Dave McEwan Hill The ones which had No winning the referendum and No did indeed win the referendum. Hillary of course won the popular vote just not the electoral college. At least 2 of the final EU referendum polls had Leave ahead

    340. galamcennalath says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:

      only “Independence Coalition” candidates

      That would invite the BritNats to also stand as pro UK candidates.

      That would be fair enough, I think. Turn every election into an Indy vote with two options. IMO that would focus minds and we’d win majorities in the current situation where WM does not represent Scotland’s interests consistently.

    341. Fireproofjim says:

      Saturday forecast for Edinburgh March.
      Mild and sunny with light breeze.
      My sacrifice of an ox to the weather gods worked well. Mind you, the neighbours complained about the noise.
      Probably Unionists.

    342. yesindyref2 says:

      I think we’re very privileged to have such a tame and willing test subject, and I see that the bell is now having an almost instaneous effect. Not so sure about the slavering all the same, but then there is a volunteer geologist with the mop and bucket.

    343. schrodingers cat says:

      Highlands and Islands
      snp 1 (40%)
      tory 3 (21%)
      lab 2
      yes would win 4, snp/gp lose 1 each tory/lab lose 1 each

      snp 0 (36%)
      tory 3 (23%)
      lab 2
      yes would win 3, gp/tory/lab lose 1 each

      Mid Scotland and Fife
      snp 0 (41%)
      tory 4 (25%)
      lab 2
      yes would win 3, gp/tory/lab lose 1 each

      North East Scotland
      snp 0 (45%)
      tory 4 (28%)
      lab 2
      lib 1
      yes would win 4, tory lose 2 lib/lab lose 1 each

      West Scotland
      snp 0 (42%)
      tory 3 (22%)
      lab 3
      yes would win 3, tory/gp/lab lose 1 each

      snp 0 (45%)
      tory 2 (22%)
      lab 4 (24%)
      yes would win 3, lab lose 2 tory/gp lose 1 each

      Central Scotland
      snp 0 (48%)
      tory 3 (16%)
      lab 4 (24%)
      yes would win 4, lab/tory lose 2 each

      snp lose 1
      greens lose 5
      tories lose 9
      lab lose 9

      yes would win 24 seats and be the new opposition guarenteeing a indy majority in holyrood

    344. schrodingers cat says:

      HYUFD says:
      That would require the SNP and Green voters to switch en masse to some Yes ticket on the list,
      10% already do switch to the greens on the list and if the unionists can tactically vote as they did in 2017, why not the nats?

      in retaliation of course Unionists would soon set up a No ticket which would equally pick up large numbers of MSPs on the list given like the Yes ticket it would not have stood and won any constituencies under FPTP.


      snigger, feel free, the snp got 1 list seat in 7 regions, the greens got 5. all the rest went to unionists parties, introducing a no party would just dilute the unionist vote even more when the vast majority of list seats were won by unionist parties anyway.

    345. schrodingers cat says:

      the voters chose to vote tactically. it wasnt the parties who instructed them (excluding dugdale)

      im not sure the snp should, would or could NOT stand candidates on the list, or if that was necesary.

      if this idea had the backing by enough indy bloggers, eg wos murray, james kelly it would have a large effect on the voters.

      as for a straight yes/no candidates on the list, in 7 0ut of 8 region, the snp got 1 seat. Ill repeat that, 1 list msp (5 greens)

      the only folk who would lose would be the unionists


    346. schrodingers cat says:

      it is worth repeating

      snp won 1 list msp in 7 regions……….. 1

      it doesnt matter what coalition is suggested for the list seats, or indeed if the unionist also stand no candidates in the list……..

      how is it possible that the result would be worse for us?

    347. Cactus says:

      One tired eyebrow.

      Looks like a scary yoon here:

      SO imagine the big guy smiling and wearing a Yes badge, not so scary eh.
      Welcome to Birmingham Jail:

      Nice timing. 😉

      4 to GO.

    348. Lenny Hartley says:

      The Cat Why are you bothering feeding the troll? The next elections at Hollyrood will be for an Infependent Scottish Parliament.

    349. schrodingers cat says:

      the silent whirring of brains 🙂

    350. Iain says:

      The blog is easy reading tonight, with all the pet unionists that I skip over unread there is hardly any reading matter.
      Ignore the trolls.

    351. Legerwood says:

      Robert Peffers @ 8.41pm

      When you state that the people of Scotland are legally sovereign how does that fit with the Sovereign Acts of 1584, 1603 and 1633 that were passed by the Scots Parliament and which still appear to be in force?

      You have mentioned a legal ruling in a court case on this subject. Do you have the details?

    352. stu mac says:

      @Orri says:
      2 October, 2018 at 6:15 pm
      At the same time it’s kind of clear they were picked as an example to be made by Osborne and the Treasury.

      They were picked because they were the most blatant and obviously deceitful tax dodgers amongst football teams in the UK. Their method of using EBTs was even more dodgy than the normal use so they were a good bet to get a result. Old Rangers lied to about tax they were paying even to the SFA/SPL, tax dodging to avoid giving money owed to their Queen and country (UK) which they supposedly support.

    353. schrodingers cat says:

      I have argued for tactical voting for quite some time because i believe the figures dont lie.

      my mistake was to argue that folk should tactically vote for the greens on the list. I was wrong on that point, heed and ken were correct in this, they dont deserve it. more importantly, although 10% snp do vote green on the list, that isnt enough and frankly, this tactic failed and will continue to do so.

      the only way tactical voting on the list will ever work is if people look at the figures and accept that it is possible.

      1 list snp msp out of 52 possible in 7 of 8 regions………and people still argue it isnt possible? that it will damage the indy cause or the snp?

      the success of such an endevour would require everyone to back it, I joked last time we should set up a party called SNP2 🙂 but in truth, it would need to be under a political banner of YES.

      I repeat though, it would need everyone to back it, stu, james kelly, peter bell etc and all of the commentators.

      the snp would and should continue to campaign for snp 1/2 and have nothing to do with this for fear of breaching electoral rules

    354. HYUFD says:

      Schrodingers Cat Rubbish as firstly it assumes SNP and Green voters would suddenly switch en masse to some new Yes party and the SNP and Green parties show no interest in backing such a party anyway.

      Secondly of course you have taken no account of the Unionist list which would almost instantly be formed if a Yes list started getting traction in the polls for the list

    355. Dr Jim says:

      I used to have Yoon aquaintances, not now, they’ve switched to YES
      So I now have no Yoon people that I know which is lovely

    356. Thepnr says:

      @Lenny Hartley

      “The next elections at Holyrood will be for an Independent Scottish Parliament.

      Yes and wouldn’t that be very interesting then if all the little YES hubs around Scotland got themselves organised to stand candidates for the list?

      Even Angus has at least 5 hubs with cafes/shops and regular meetings in Arbroath, Brechin, Carnoustie, Forfar and Arbroath.

      It is an interesting idea and would result in close to a landslide of Pro-Indy MSP’s in the Scottish Parliament 🙂

    357. schrodingers cat says:

      Lenny Hartley
      I very rarely engage with trolls, (indeed i post rarely at all these days) but he is a useful foil today

      humour me for tonight lenny

    358. HYUFD says:

      Lenny Hartley Not without Westminster’s consent, Westminster only consented to the 2014 referendum as the SNP got an absolute majority at the 2011 Scottish Parliament elections and of course No still won 55% to 45% anyway

    359. Lenny Hartley says:

      The Cat, no worries pal, noticed you aint been on for a while, same with Tarranach, hope alls well.

    360. Colin Alexander says:

      @ Robert Peffers

      If you are referring to the Miller Supreme Court case, it upheld the Unionist mantra of Westminster parliamentary sovereignty.

      The SNP watered that down (I’m being polite), by offering unionists the opportunity to vote SNP to allow the SNP to administer the UK Union in Scotland without any need for indy.

      They also targetted traditional working class / middle-class Labour voters by offering more socialist / social democratic policies compared to Thatcherism or Labour.

      We had Labour’s feeble 50 and the feeble Labour devolution administrations.

      But, Indy via Indyref via the devolution parliament is and always has been a constitutional con-trick.

      Indyref was only allowed to be held because it was correctly judged by the Cameron Tory UK Govt, to be a dead cert that the Union would be the winner. It could be used to undermine / crush the Scottish indy movement and giving a resounding democratic mandate to the Union and increase English MPs power at Westminster.

      And since then we’ve heard again and again: the people voted No. The people have decided etc. When it comes to Indyref.

      At one point during indyref it looked like the impossible could happen: a majority YES vote. Indy by a YES vote was never going to be allowed, so the UK Govt then used whatever methods it took to maintain the NO lead. Mr GB and the Vow did the trick along with state propaganda from the BBC and ITV.

      Even if YES had won, there was no legally binding timetable or legally binding agreement on the UK sovereign parliament that meant a YES win would mean Scotland’s independence in x years time. There was no constitutional agreement whatsoever, it was a gentleman’s agreement signed with nice pens, pomp and ceremony. Tinsel for the TV.

      A resounding YES win by a large majority would still have been difficult politically for the UK Govt to ignore or reject, but the UK Govt knew a large YES majority was almost certainly impossible based on all the statistical evidence available for many years, especially once the full domestic and international power of the UK state would be unleashed to support the Union’s NO campaign against a grassroots and SNP YES campaign.

      Ultimately MPs in the Westminster sovereign parliament could simply reject what David Cameron promised even if YES won. Like GB’s Vow, it was promises from someone who knew it was not within his power to deliver.

      So, based on these factors the Cameron govt played along with Alex Salmond. It was a win / virtually impossible to lose situation for the UK Govt.

      The SNP knew this but, such was the optimism of Alex Salmond, comparable to the euphoria of Ally’s Tartan Army in World Cup ’78, the YES movement were encouraged to believe they could gain Scottish independence in 2014 with a YES win.

      The harsh fact is: indy via a Holyrood inspired indyref can only happen by Westminster political goodwill from Westminster.

      In the current UK political situation, the chance of that is close to zero.

      The YES movement must bite the bullet that the SNP long ago spat out when they embraced devolution:

      Scottish MPs are the administrators of Scotland’s people’s sovereignty. It will take a majority vote of Scottish MPs for Scottish sovereignty to be returned to Holyrood to enable a Scottish Parliament to be the place where Scottish sovereignty can be exercised.

      Only after that transfer of sovereignty has been achieved, can that Scottish Parliament (as the democratically elected representatives of the sovereign people) legislate for a legally binding indyref or simply vote to declare the Union ended.

      The SNP had it right for decades: Indy by the election of a majority of pro-indy MPs is the way to exit the UK Union.

      I suppose Indyref was worth a try. It proved to be a glorious failure in 2014.

      However, that failure may have sowed the seeds of success: support for independence has remained steadily significantly higher than when a S30 was signed in October 2012.

      The time has come for a return of Scottish sovereignty to Scotland by the election of a majority of Scottish MPs that are democratically mandated to return Scottish sovereignty from Westminster to Holyrood.

    361. schrodingers cat says:


      7 out of 8 regions……. snp 1 greens 5 list msps. all the rest a total of 40 went to unionist parties. how would forming a unionist party and standing candidates on the list help you?

      answer……. it wont. quite the reverse in fact.

      the only way a unionist party would help you is if it were to stand in the constituencies and the tories/lab/lib didnt. good luck negotiating that with jeremy. snigger

      as for convincing people to back this idea………. isnt this what i am doing?

    362. schrodingers cat says:

      it assumes SNP and Green voters would suddenly switch en masse to some new Yes party

      actually no. my figures were not based on any green list voters changing, just the snp ones. check the figures

      bear in mind, 10% of snp constituency voters vote green on the list

    363. Thepnr says:

      Angus of course forms only 2 of the constituency seats for the Scottish Parliamnet so there are plenty other YES hubs in the remainder of the North East Scotland region including the cities of Dundee and Aberdeen. Full list of constituencies:

      Aberdeen Central
      Aberdeen Donside
      Aberdeen South and North Kincardine
      Aberdeenshire East
      Aberdeenshire West
      Angus North and Mearns
      Angus South
      Banffshire and Buchan Coast
      Dundee City East
      Dundee City West

      If a Pro-Indy supporting majority in Holyrood was essential for whatever reason, “Yes” standing in the list seats would sqoosh it with the infrastructure and organisation already in place.

    364. schrodingers cat says:


      cat got yer tongue?

    365. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. the ambiguous quality of British democracy. Does the long-standing practice of British tradition legitimate the democratic exclusion of a nation? Mind now, these are written pre-Brexit vote.

      Scotland’s Challenge to Parliamentary Sovereignty: Can Westminster Abolish the Scottish Parliament Unilaterally?


      The question of the contemporary status of parliamentary sovereignty is a significant and vexedone. The doctrine’s status in Scotland has been a vexed academic issue for centuries. It has been further problematized by the inception of the Scottish Parliament and the recent Scottish Independence Referendum. The central question of this work is: can Westminster abolish the Scottish Parliament unilaterally? This issue will be explored in five parts. The first section will consist of a broad discussion of sovereignty, focusing on the classical debates regarding Westminster’s sovereignty and the question of whether Scotland possessed a distinct tradition of popular sovereignty prior to entering the Union.

      The work will then examine the events of the 1980s and 1990s and argue that it represented a constitutional step change in Scotland. The work will then explore the constitutional and political meaning of referendums, before the theories of constitutional unsettlement and constitutional moments. The central contention of this work is that, whilst a distinctly Scottish approach to sovereignty did not exist until the 1990s, the political rupture created by the Conservative government of the 1980s and 1990s acted as a constitutional moment, crystalized in the 1997 Referendum on Devolution, which politically entrenched the Scottish Parliament’s status in the Scottish and British constitutional orders.

      The 2014 Referendum confirmed the political necessity for recourse to popular sovereignty on profound constitutional issues. This, however, has not been reflected in law. Westminster retains the theoretical capacity to abolish the Scottish Parliament. In reality, this is an almost meaningless power, but the power cannot be removed without destroying parliamentary sovereignty itself. The state of constitutional unsettlement that the United Kingdom continues to exist in means that there is little hope for formal settlement of this issue, even taking into account the impending legislative confirmation of the Scottish Parliament’s political permanence.

      Jeffrey Goldsworthy: Parliamentary Sovereignty’s Premature Obituary

      Stuart Lakin: How to Defend a Theory of the British Constitution

    366. yesindyref2 says:

      If you are referring to the Miller Supreme Court case, it upheld the Unionist mantra of Westminster parliamentary sovereignty.

      Cock oh van, Rodders, cock oh van. Oh country air, it upheld the law.

    367. HYUFD says:

      Interesting to see in Quebec’s National Assembly election yesterday for the first time ever the centre right Coalition Avenir Quebec has won a majority in the province gaining 53 seats, it is the equivalent of the Tories winning a majority in Scotland.

      The governing Liberals lost 36 seats and the pro independence nationalist Parti Quebecois lost 19 seats while the small leftwing pro independence Quebec Solidaire gained 7,_2018

    368. schrodingers cat says:

      soz pnr

      If a Pro-Indy supporting majority in Holyrood was essential for whatever reason, “Yes” standing in the list seats would sqoosh it with the infrastructure and organisation already in place

      just to be clear….does that mean you would support yes candidates on the list?

    369. HYUFD says:

      Colin Alexander Westminster would of course never grant Scottish independence without a clear majority in a referendum. After all even when the SNP won 56 out of 59 MPs in Scotland the most it got was the Scotland Act 2016, not a murmur from Westminster about it being a mandate for independence.

    370. Orri says:

      Jesus wept.

      Any putative Yes candidates would have to stand as a party for this list party thing to stand a chance.

      If they don’t they face the inherent problem with the DHondt method which is that every other group of MPs standing other than the last awarded a seat could miss out by less than a single vote. In the case of a group of daring individuals that very much risks losing enough votes between them that all but one of two might have been elected.

      If they do group together then there’s no ducking way the SNP can be seen to endorse them. If they do then the Electoral Commission may give the same verdict as Labour got when they tried to pull a fast one and field a List under the guise of CoOp candidates under the pretext that it was an entirely separate party. Given every member of said CoOp hast to be a member of Labour the were told GTF.

      If the EC are in a particularly evil mood they might wait till all the votes are in before deciding which way to jump. If treating the SNP and Yes as an official alliance gives less list MSPs then they may opt for that. To avoid bias accusations they might act on complaints from losing candidates.

    371. Davie Oga says:


      I thought you were sensible dave until you showed that you clearly had no idea how the list functions in Scottish elections That and even a tory pishbot like sensible never stooped so low as to make up polling figures.

    372. schrodingers cat says:

      bottom line folks

      this issue isnt going to arise for sometime, i believe a GE will happen first and as such, snp is the only vehicule and the only sensible vote.
      the greens will probably stand again in dunfries and other marginals which is probably why im now arguing that they no longer deserve our support.

      but the threat today by the unionist to reject a s30 by a sg who have a cast iron mandate to ask for one, raises the possibilty of an indyref2 without a s30 or the only other type of plebicite within our power, ie a holyrood election. we are limited in our choices.

      then again, i believe the issue of tactical voting will raise its head again even after a yes vote to stop a unionist coalition after such an event reversing the process

      if nothing else, it has taken the wind out of our resident trolls sails

      ps. if the rev was to stand as a yes candidate in your region……….would you vote for him?

    373. schrodingers cat says:

      Lenny Hartley

      tx 4 humouring me 🙂

    374. schrodingers cat says:



      the bounce seems to have gone fae yer bungie HYUFD. snigger

    375. Thepnr says:

      @schrodingers cat

      “just to be clear….does that mean you would support yes candidates on the list?”

      Well that would depend on who the people running it were and who the candidates were. If it was made of the ordinary volunteers that are everyday out in these Yes hubs spreading the word and if it could attract candidates like the Rev, WGD, James Kelly, Lesley Riddoch, Craig Murray, Derek Batemen ect ect. i.e people I could trust then 100% support from me.

    376. Orri says:

      It may be worth reminding people the current Secretary of State for Northern Ireland as, by what authority I don’t know, that there are to be no elections to Stormont in the immediate future.

      I assume that’s to head off at the pass any attempt by Sinn Fein at resigning an mass and using the publicity from mass bye elections as a platform for protest. The question of the legality of that aside it does raise questions as to whether a similar power resides with Mundell.

    377. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s one for the hard-core yoon in your life. 😉

      The Union and the Constitution

      Executive Summary

      The Scottish National Party’s (SNP’s) independence referendum raises the importance of the Anglo-Scottish Union underpinning the UK’s multi-national state.

      Traditionally, on both sides of the border, a consensus prevailed in constitutional law that parliament was supreme and untrammelled. However, within Scotland there has been a growing awareness of the neglected significance of the Union agreement of 1707 in the British constitution.

      The double-layering of the British constitution is under-appreciated. The Union of 1707, a hasty measure devised to confront short-term problems, scarcely dented the well-established contours of the existing English constitution, despite the fact that the Union was supposedly constitutive of a new British state.

      Devolution has brought into focus the incoherence at the heart of the constitution, one of whose most obvious current defects is popularly referred to as the West Lothian Question.

      The British constitution is in a state of transition between an unwritten constitution – with a very wide measure of parliamentary discretion- and a more codified kind of constitution. The question of the Anglo-Scottish Union provides another critical wedge into this debate.

      Thus the current squabble over the nature and timing of the Scottish referendum derives in some measure from two competing notions about the location of sovereignty. Many Scottish intellectuals and politicians – Labour and Liberal, as well as SNP – believe that Scotland has a tradition of popular sovereignty which can be traced back to the Declaration of Arbroath in 1320. The British constitution, by contrast, rests on the idea of the sovereignty of parliament.

      Regardless of the outcome of the Scottish referendum, it seems likely that the British constitution will need to be reframed to take account of the fact that the UK is already a ‘state of unions’. If Scotland remains in the Union then the British constitution will need to be clarified. Alternatively, even if Scotland withdraws from the Union, then the surviving state will be an odd ensemble of England, Wales and Northern Ireland whose underpinning principles of unity will be a succession of Acts of union (and disunion) between the sixteenth century and the present. Either scenario presents a pressing need for constitutional reframing.



    378. Thepnr says:


      “If the EC are in a particularly evil mood they might wait till all the votes are in before deciding which way to jump.”

      Come the next Holyrood election the Electoral Commission will be in control of the Scottish parliament if the SNP bill proposed for this parliamentary year passes.

      Electoral Reform

      The Bill will implement a range of electoral reforms, some of which will use the 2016 Scotland Act powers. These include proposals included in the recent Electoral Reform Consultation to extend the powers of the Electoral Management Board, and make changes to Boundary reviews. It will also include some technical matters, for example transferring oversight of the Electoral Commission to the Scottish Parliament.

    379. schrodingers cat says:


      good point, it wont fly without these peoples support, thats a given

      but do you accept in principle that such tactical voting could be a success?

      simply put, i cant guarentee the people you mention would stand, it might be you who needed to put your head above the parapet, what i am saying is it wouldnt work unless it had massive backing from the likes of those you mentioned

    380. Phronesis says:

      Is this the direction of Brexit Britain- scaling up ‘Jersey Way’- the added bonus of having no NHS.

      ‘the island’s political and judicial arrangements are peculiarly unsuited to hosting an offshore financial centre, lacking the necessary separation of authority between judiciary and legislature, and with wholly inadequate independent political oversight of the financial services sector…an island culture that enforces conformity, tolerates official perjury, ignores the perversion of the course of justice, allows extensive conflicts of interest throughout the judicial and political systems, and suppresses political dissent…There is also scant evidence that the judiciary is capable of independent action. This is partly due to the close relations between the legal and financial services industries, but also because of the intimate relations between legal professionals who grow up together in a small island, attend the same schools, work at the same firms, and prefer the easy life of collaboration rather than taking the high road of confrontation, which is such a necessary part of building a just society…
      But the Jersey Way runs deeper than the absence of judicial independence. Jersey lacks most of the institutions of a democratic state…

      All legislation agreed by the island’s legislature must be ratified by the UK monarch’s Privy Council before being enacted. And yet politically Jersey is not part of the UK and, through smoke and mirrors, regularly projects itself as being free from UK interference. This provides comfort to British elites using Jersey for tax cheating, while at the same time reassuring them that if the worst arises they can protect their interests through appeal to the UK Supreme Court’

    381. Thepnr says:

      @Davie Oga

      No it’s not Sensible Dave. You’ve been reading the arguments of Simon, a wanna be Tory Councillor from Epping.

    382. Colin Alexander says:

      yesindyref2 said: “it upheld the “law”

      Aye, that in UK constitutional law: Westminster Parliament is sovereign.

      The UK joined the then EC via Westminster MPs voting in favour of the European Communities Act 1972, so that’s how it also leaves, MPs votes, not via Crown powers. The EU ref was not binding, it was advisory.

      Scotland formed the Union with England via the votes of Scots MPs, it follows that that’s how she will also have to end the Union if there is to be a constitutional continuity of the nation of Scotland based on the Claim of Right and the sovereignty of the people of Scotland.

      You could always change your login to: Yes to electing Scottish MPs that will vote for the sovereignty of the people of Scotland to be exercised at Holyrood instead of Westminster.


      Yesindyref2-will-be-an-advisory-opinion-poll-which-will-be-upheld-and-celebrated by the UK state-if-No won-and-rejected-by-the-UK-state-as-a-meaningless-opinion-poll-if-YES-won.

    383. HYUFD says:

      Schrodingers Cat Far from it. Quebec has had to deal with its nationalists for decades. It has taken Federalists in Quebec winning two referendums, in 1980 and 1995 and surviving 4 Parti Quebecois governments over that time to finally reach the situation yesterday where a centre right party won the Quebec election and the nationalist Parti Quebecois fell to third.

      Quebec is a shining light for Unionists that there is light at the end of the tunnel in Scotland, eventually

    384. HYUFD says:

      Thepnr Yet another GDPR breach

    385. Hamish100 says:

      Colin, Colin, Colin. You sound just like rock and fud. Have ever been in the same tory conference together?

    386. HYUFD says:

      Colin Alexander Why should 50 odd SNP MPs at Westminster out of over 600 lead to independence? It certainly did not in 2015. In the late 19th century the Irish Nationalist Party frequently won a majority of Irish seats but that did not lead to independence, it was only the Easter Rising and the Irish Civil War coming after WW1 which led eventually to the British government agreeing to the creation of the Irish Free State

    387. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh dear, the bot broke. Probably a stack overflow or a flipped bit.

    388. Thepnr says:

      @CameronB Brodie 11:39

      Your best for a while Cameron 🙂

    389. schrodingers cat says:

      Thepnr says:
      i.e people I could trust then 100% support from me.

      it only takes 2 to start a revolution 🙂

    390. Petra says:

      Spot on Paul.

      Wee Ginger Dug: ‘What Ruth Davidson really wants.’

    391. schrodingers cat says:


      you wouldnt be trying to …er…… change the subject?

      please please set up a unionist no party to fight for list seats in holyrood 🙂

      theres a good lad eh!

    392. Thepnr says:

      Simon, mind you’ve work to go to in the morning. Don’t take any risks in driving with a hangover.

    393. schrodingers cat says:

      HYUFD says:
      2 October, 2018 at 11:53 pm
      Schrodingers Cat Far from it.

      far from what? meh ???

    394. sandy says:

      Rock @ 9.26pm.

      Do you think you could use that bucket of water, like, as soon as possible?

    395. Hamish100 says:


      you love quoting Canada. Is it independent of Westminster excepting the Head Queenie? Do Canadians wish to be directly ruled by Johnston, rees-mogg and crew.

      That’s what independence does for you. You make decisions for your own country and reject to be governed by strange foreigny type folk from Essex, Little England. I wish England well as they go off the cliff I have no wish to go with them.

    396. Thepnr says:

      @schrodingers cat

      Get Prof. John Robertson, Nana and Macart aboard then I’m in 🙂

    397. schrodingers cat says:

      HYUFD says:
      2 October, 2018 at 11:58 pm
      Colin Alexander Why should 50 odd SNP MPs at Westminster out of over 600 lead to independence? It certainly did not in 2015.


      thats cos the snp didnt campaign on a ticket of indy in 2015, neither did they win a mandate

      it is now accepted the route to indy is via an indyref by holyrood.
      should that be rejected by wm, it will revert to the previous system supported by maggie thatcher abnd the acts of union that a simple majority of scottish mps elected on an indy ticket at wm is sufficient for an indy scotland to be declared.

      we will not resort to violence, it isnt needed. the vast majority of people in england support scotlands right to be indy. (ie they couldnt care less) you are in the minority demanding violence. it wont happen, it isnt necessary

    398. CameronB Brodie says:

      Cheers mate, I think that’s me empty now. 😉

      Should Parliamentary Sovereignty Trump Popular Sovereignty?

      Popular sovereignty is a moral ideal. Parliamentary sovereignty is an institutional device, helpful where it secures important values, but a hindrance when it does not.

      Dicey, Parliamentary Sovereignty and the Rule of Law,_Parliamentary_Sovereignty_and_the_Rule_of_Law

      Parliamentary Sovereignty and Written Constitutions in
      Comparative Perspective

    399. HYUFD says:

      Schrodingers Cat No, I am just pointing out Unionists are in a long war with Nationalists in Scotland which will last decades.

      It took Federalists in Canada 38 years since the first Quebec independence referendum in 1980 to finally get to the situation yesterday where a Federalist Party other than the Liberals won a majority and the Nationalist Parti Quebecois fell to third.

      UK and Scottish Unionists, like their Canadian and Quebecois Federalist cousins, are in the fight for the long haul

    400. HYUFD says:

      Hamish 100 Most Canadians recognise the value of a Federal Union, as most British people still recognise the value of the Union over here too

    401. yesindyref2 says:

      Well, here he is, as requested.

    402. Orri says:

      Scotland’s MPs had no lein over Scotland’s sovereignty. Therefore even if they had ceded it to Westminster such an act would not be sound in Scots Law.

      Indeed there’s at least one case that says Parliamentary Sovereignty is peculiar to English Law and has no equivalent in Scots.

      Also bear in mind that the essential premise of the Parliament Act is that the House of Commons trumps the Lords when it comes to things covered by an electoral mandate. Hence in principle any sovereignty Wesminster has in Scotland is via our representatives there and since devolution limited to unresolved areas only.

      Also as Henry 8th laws didn’t exist in Scotland they can’t be used here until they are enacted. Th e concept seems to be that of retroactive moderation. So any changes in the law can be undone by Parliament. However if those changes cover Scotland and attempt to remove powers from Holyrood then there’s a problem. The most notable of which is that it’s not Westminster legislating but Whitehall so even if you accept the ridiculous ignoring of commonsense regarding what constitutes normally there’s no authority in the Scotland Act for such a thing.

    403. yesindyref2 says:

      UK and Scottish Unionists, like their Canadian and Quebecois Federalist cousins, are in the fight for the long haul

      The Unionists I know, all normal reasonable people, would think that comment about their cousins in Canada, stark raving bonkers.

    404. HYUFD says:

      No British government as I said will accept anything over than a clear majority in a referendum as a mandate for independence, a majority of Scottish MPs being SNP will not even suffice as a mandate for another referendum let alone for independence.

    405. CameronB Brodie says:

      O/T Jason Hunter talks Brexit, including what leaving on WTO rules would mean.

    406. Thepnr says:

      Simon are you still up?

      Since you’re here I’d like to extend an invite to the AUOB march for Independence to be held in Edinburgh this Saturday.

      Bring a few mates, your all welcome. Will even buy you all a drink. I know you’d like that 🙂

    407. Thepnr says:

      Oh and Simon, if for any reason you can’t make it to the Independence March, probably the biggest ever to take place in Scotland then be sure and tune in to the BBC news as I’m sure it will be covered in full. You might see me 🙂

    408. Cubby says:

      As much as I dislike seeing the stupid Britnat trolls posting it does serve one purpose. It highlights to all and sundry just how STUPID and MISINFORMED they are.

      A life spent reading the Mail, Telegraph, Express, Record etc can inflict serious brain damage and these trolls are displaying all the symptoms.

      Britnat trolls come and go on Wings but each one spouts a lot of crap.

    409. yesindyref2 says:

      No British government

      No such chamber
      no such zone,
      return to sender
      address unknown.

    410. HYUFD says:

      Thepnr I am afraid I will be washing my hair that day!

    411. Colin Alexander says:

      HYUD said: “No British government as I said will accept anything over than a clear majority in a referendum as a mandate for independence.”

      You forgot to mention that no UK Parliament is ever likely to legislate to create a legally binding (on UK Parliament) indyref with a legally binding indy timetable, if there is any real probability of a YES vote achieving a majority.

      When people talk of indyrefs now being the accepted method, seems we are talking political convention.

      Well, we know how that goes. They’re only respected when it suits the UK state. When the devolution power grab came and the Scot Govt cried: Sewel Convention, the answer came loud and clear from the UK Govt:

      Conventions count for nothing. Which brings me to:

      The Supreme Court is due to issue its ruling on Holyrood’s Continuity Bill any time soon.

      Ah Cannae wait!

    412. Thepnr says:

      This is the last Edinburgh March from 2013, it was class. See if you can spot the Rev handing out badges and the only TWO pandas in Scotland LOL.

      If you’ve never saw this before then you really should have.

      This next, 5 years later will be bigger and better, see you there.

    413. Petra says:

      BBC Scotland at it again. People paying for propaganda to be pumped into their livingroom: No doubt contributing to anxiety and depression. When will someome carry out research into this?

    414. North chiel says:

      “ Cubby says at 0102” yes” verbal diahorrea “is symptomatic of these posters . However in reality they realise that “ Brexit is playing “fast& loose “with the precious precious union” , Hence the “ condition” also is increasingly effecting the opposite end of their anatomy .

    415. Dorothy Devine says:

      OT went to see Black 47 at the GFT yesterday – it didn’t make me greet , it made me angry and unashamedly bloodthirsty.

    416. Petra says:

      Mair oil! Where’s all this oil coming from? Scotland you say. Imagine that. Scotland with boarded up shops, pot-holed roads and hundreds of thousands of poverty stricken families. How can that be? Maybe some half-decent Scottish investigative reporter could help us out.

    417. Robert Peffers says:

      @Colin Alexander says: 3 October, 2018 at 1:24 am:

      Will both you, Colin and the English nationalist HYUD please stop confusing yourselves and everyone else?

      So HYUD said: “No British government as I said will accept anything over than a clear majority in a referendum as a mandate for independence.”,. However there are eight British Governments in the British Isles and these are The Republic of Ireland, The Isle of Man, The Bailiwick of Jersey, The Bailiwick of Guernsey, The Holyrood SG of Scotland, The Welsh Assembly and The N.I. Assembly, (presently in enforced recess). These are all British governments and the Westminster madhouse does not govern Britain – it governs only the United Kingdom but that situation is in immanent danger of grinding to a sudden halt.

      And You, Colin, seem to misunderstand that the term, “United Kingdom”, describes a two partner Kingdom and not a four country unified country. It is NOT called the United Country of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, it is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and there are only two, equally sovereign, kingdoms in that United Kingdom.

      Yet here you are – one of you speaking of The British Government and the other speaking about the United Kingdom Government. Both are British Governments but neither are the Government of Britain.

    418. Dr Jim says:

      @Dorothy Devine 8am

      It’s a must see film for sure and I felt the same as you

      Revenge on those who did it then and now

    419. I see Nicola has persuaded Jeff Bezos of Amazon to lift their minimum wage to £9.50,

      Bezos “We listened to our critics, thought hard about what we wanted to do, and decided we want to lead.

      ,“We’re excited about this change and encourage our competitors and other large employers to join us.”

      shows what `conversation not confrontation` can achieve,

      well done Nicola and well gone Amazon.

    420. Hamish100 says:

      Fud – Canada is independent and federal. Scotland is not independent nor in a federal union. Lets move on. Australia indy , India indy, NZ indy, Ireland indy……please continue

    421. Dorothy Devine says:

      Oh jings Petra , whit are we to dae ? We cannae manage aw’ that black , black gold by oorsels , we’ll be needin’ hauners fae Westminster and a’ their intelligent fowk who’ll ken fit tae dee.

    422. orri says:

      @stu mac

      Breaking the rules of competition by not disclosing the entirety of players contracts is what got Rangers kicked out of the Premier.

      However that might be evidence of wrong doing but as far as I know there’s still a case going on.

      However the Tax Office changed their tune during the saga. In the initial stages they were reported as trying to retrospectively apply a change in the law. Something that no-one should allow them to get away with as it might be your turn next.

      These days they’re pursuing the disguised payments line.

      Regardless of which the loophole in the law Rangers were relying on was that income from foreign sources weren’t taxed. As soon as Osborne changed the law Rangers gained an instant tax liability, or their players did. Which meant that unless some white knight rode in to save them they were fucked regardless of the whether they won the case or not.

      Being dodgy as fuck and sleekit about not telling others how you can afford players isn’t illegal. Breaking the rules of competition isn’t fraud.

      Slightly relevant is some on twitter saying that regardless of the truth of the matter Stu shouldn’t win his defamation case as he’s a nasty man who deserves the abuse.

    423. Breeks says:

      Cubby says:
      3 October, 2018 at 1:02 am
      As much as I dislike seeing the stupid Britnat trolls posting it does serve one purpose. It highlights to all and sundry just how STUPID and MISINFORMED they are.

      A life spent reading the Mail, Telegraph, Express, Record etc can inflict serious brain damage and these trolls are displaying all the symptoms.

      Britnat trolls come and go on Wings but each one spouts a lot of crap….

      What was the name of that UKIP reject who turns up at YES marches wearing a grubby Union Jack shirt, (grubby not in the insulting sense, but grubby as in it was put in the wash with coloureds), and spouting loads of pish down a megaphone? I don’t actually care what his name was, but just consider how singularly ineffective his ranting actually was. Turn up and shout at us in a Union Jack dirty shirt? Err,…whatever dude…

      The BritNats don’t do engagement or discussion. They tell. They command. They demand you listen to their opinion, and just shout louder and louder until you do.

      Look at Europe. EU decorum and proficiency is totally impervious to BritNat “shite”.
      Look at the YES marches, walk right passed our megaphoned lunatic.
      Look at the BBC. No you can’t have you’re own TV channels, you’ll get your information from us! So we don’t watch.
      Look at May’s Government. Sheer contempt for Scottish democracy as if it didn’t exist.
      When the British cannot face reality, they retreat to delusional fantasy.

      I’m not anti-democracy, but when democracy is so terribly compromised, as it is here in Scotland, it “feels” like a mugs game. It’s pedestrian, our malignant oppressors can see us coming, and they will surely cheat our democracy (again) and then turn it against us.

      I no longer care to have a referendum on Independence. Not on these terms. What will it be worth?

      Let us please take our historic Constitutional Sovereignty, take our subverted democracy distorted as it is by BritNat Propaganda and State manipulation, and make our case for Sovereign Constitutional legitimacy to the UN and to our friends Europe.

      Once the law is clear, our predicament understood, and the Constitutional reality is stripped of all confusion and ambiguity, THEN we take it to the people with a democratic plebiscite, where every option on the ballot is up for informed discussion and dispassionate contemplation, but at the very minimum, every option is sound, competent, and compatible with Scotland’s lawful Constitution and the popular sovereignty of the people.

      It isn’t a shooting war thank goodness, but the BritNat Establishment is at war with us, and we march merrily on to meet our fate, (and isn’t it just oh so pedestrian), like Christians armed with nothing but their faith marching into a Roman Coliseum.

    424. Dorothy Devine says:

      Dr Jim , glad I’m not the only vengeful angel!

    425. Petra says:

      Boris Johnston’s speech. Ironic or what?

      2:24mins in: ”The one thing I really worry about in this critical autumn of 2018 is that after 200 years this oldest and most successful of all political parties should somehow lose confidence in it’s basic belief in freedom and that after 1000 years of Independence this country might really lose confidence in it’s democratic institutions that we should be so demoralised and so exhausted as to submit our institutions forever, indefinitely to a foreign rule …”

      29 mins in: ”As Ruth Davidson has rightly pointed out we cannot tell the Scots that they’ve made a decision to reject Independence for a generation in their referendum and then ask the UK population to vote again on the EU. The idea of a second vote is infamous ..”

    426. Nana says:

      Phillip Hammond has admitted a no deal exit would lead to a hard border in Ireland.
      Ruth Davidson makes a fawning speech to fifty or so, snoozing Tories in Birmingham.

      Glasgow vice-chancellor warns of ‘catastrophic’ no-deal Brexit

      Verofstadt spells it out for the brexiters

    427. Macart says:

      TBH I don’t think I can raise interest in watching Bratfest heid bummer May’s speech today. I mean you know all you need to know about Brats from ATL. They’re the ideology of me, masel’ and I. Their policies are based on what’s best for a teeny, tiny demographic and supposedly what’s good for them will be good for the rest. When something is bad for them, then the rest can go wanting. No degrees in rocket science required to understand the concept.

      They’re evil, selfish and self obsessed bastirts. Their motto should be along the lines of ‘do what thou wilt is the whole of the law’ kinda thing.

      For them hypocrisy is a tool. As is fibbery, obfuscation, misrepresentation, pretty much all the stuff that makes yer average reasoning human being sick to the back teeth of the sight of the political class. That’s them on steroids. Politics is a vile game right enough and they’re the very team who put the vileness in place so they should know.

      How and ever, it is a teeny tiny demographic. The nanosecond you turn a deaf ear to their poison. What are they then? They have no power over you whatsoever without your say so.

      Worth a thought come the next ballot.

    428. Nana says:

      Unnamed and allowed to continue in the post

      Theresa the big coward

      Senior MPs are addressing near-empty halls at the party conference, while controversial fringe meetings attract crowds.

    429. Petra says:

      Where’s Nana? I hope that yesterday’s fiasco hasn’t put her off.


      ‘Tory members turn out for Boris Johnson’s speech over panel discussion focused on the Union.’

      Conservative Party members appear to be losing interest in the Union after just a COUPLE OF DOZEN (my emphasis) of delegates turned out to hear a panel discussion on the subject at the party conference.

      There were rows of empty seats in the main hall in Birmingham for the “Stronger, Fairer United Kingdom” event – which coincided with Boris Johnson’s fringe session and call to “chuck Chequers” – yesterday afternoon.

      The sparse numbers gathered to hear the panel which included Scottish Secretary David Mundell and Northern Ireland Secretary Karen Bradley. Welsh Secretary Alun Cairns and Cabinet Office minister David Lidington also took part in the discussion.

      But the low turn out sparked comments on social media from observers in Scotland.

      Referring to a picture posted by Scots political writer Gerry Hassan of a near empty hall, Dorothy Bruce tweeted: “Shows how much the Union actually means to them. They’re only interested in our resources, not our well-being.”

      A second remarked: “Speaks volumes.”

      The almost empty hall is embarrassing to Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson who took the stage on Monday to appeal to activists to support the Union, and also to unite behind the PM’s Brexit plan.

      Davidson declared “The Union that’s most important to us is our own: the Union of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland.”

      But judging by the low numbers at the event and the masses who turned out to hear Johnson, Tory members were keener to hear him denounce the Chequers plan than hear what Mundell had to say about the Union.

      Earlier this year results of a poll found that voters in England would prefer to lose Scotland than Gibraltar if this was the cost of Brexit.

      Pollsters from Panelbase asked more than 1000 people south of the Border for their views on a scenario in which the price of leaving the EU would be for the UK to be without Scotland or Northern Ireland, or Gibraltar.

      Voters expressed most concern about Gibraltar, followed by Scotland and were least concerned about Northern Ireland opting to go.

      Some 37% said losing Gibraltar would not be a price worth paying for Brexit, while 35% said losing Scotland would not be worth it. In terms of losing Northern Ireland just 31% said it was not a price worth paying for Brexit.

      Speaking at yesterday’s event Mundell urged the Scottish Government to take a second independence referendum “off the table”.

      He called on Nicola Sturgeon to snap out of her “constitutional Groundhog Day” and get on with the day job of running Scotland. The Cabinet minister also criticised Jeremy Corbyn for his decision not to rule out another independence vote. The Labour leader previously said he was “not ruling out” giving consent for a second referendum.

      Responding to Mundell, SNP depute leader Keith Brown hit back: “The Tories are like a broken record, they can’t go five minutes without shouting about independence while demanding that nobody else speak about independence.”

    430. Nana says:

      Good Friday Agreement not up for renegotiation, says Leo Varadkar

      The horrible truth: you’re probably going to be talking about Brexit for the rest of your life

      Rupert Murdoch’s News International handed Operation Weeting detectives a hard drive from Rebekah Brooks’ work computer, only for them to discover it could never have come from her machine, High Court hears ahead of hacking trial…

    431. Colin Alexander says:

      Start the day with a debate on constitutional law:

      Which answer will carry legal authority at the UK’s Supreme Court authority to uphold and protect the devolved powers of the devolution parliament at Holyrood?

      A. The Sewel Convention

      B. The UK Govt gave us a Pinky promise

      C. The promises of Gordon Brown, David Cameron, Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg, The Vow and the Smith Commission.

      D. An assurance from David Mundell MP that there won’t be a power grab, the UK Govt is only borrowing powers and will return them after a few years

      E. None of the above

    432. Nana says:

      Britain and the European Union will begin a frantic week of diplomacy on Wednesday aimed at thrashing out the final shape of the Brexit deal.

      Brexit: a free pass for Mr Johnson

      Warning, testimony from Wedger is disturbing
      Former detective Jon Wedger describes how he fought to uncover an establishment cover up of child abuse while working for the Met police.

    433. Nana says:

      Thanks to those who left comments yesterday. I was out for most of the day and late back so no time to reply.

      Rev has spoken and is happy for me to carry on linking [provided I don’t go repeating] he has hammers you know 🙂

      Anyone not too happy can take it up with the boss or do as I do and scroll on by. Simple!

      By the by I went to see Black’47 last evening, recommend you go see it. Didn’t make me weep, did make me bloody angry.

    434. robertknight says:

      Only item that should be on the SNP manifesto for the next Holyrood election should be Indy and nothing else!

      Westminster SNP MPs should resign en masse 3 months prior to it and stand on the same ticket at the subsequent by-elections which should be held on the same day.

      SNP, in the event that they form a Government at Holyrood, should form a Scottish Grand Committee to negotiate repeal of the 1707 Act of Union with England and enter into simultaneous negotiations to join the EU.

      All or nothing – and if the electorate bottle it, hell mend them !

    435. Macart says:


      Cheers Nana. A good crop and a few there really worth reading twice IMO.

      Kettle’s on. 🙂

    436. Petra says:

      ”I no longer care to have a referendum on Independence. Not on these terms. What will it be worth? Let us please take our historic Constitutional Sovereignty, take our subverted democracy distorted as it is by BritNat Propaganda and State manipulation, and make our case for Sovereign Constitutional legitimacy to the UN and to our friends Europe. Once the law is clear, our predicament understood, and the Constitutional reality is stripped of all confusion and ambiguity, THEN we take it to the people with a democratic plebiscite, where every option on the ballot is up for informed discussion and dispassionate contemplation, but at the very minimum, every option is sound, competent, and compatible with Scotland’s lawful Constitution and the popular sovereignty of the people.”..

      ”I no longer care to have a referendum on Independence.”

      FGS, it just get’s curiouser and curiouser, as Alice would say!

      And as to the rigmarole of clarifying the Law through the UN and the EU, followed by every option being discussed, how long is that going to take? Will the MSM support ”discussion” or will Nicola Sturgeon find herself having to take to the streets with Irn Bru crates and a loud hailer?

      And at the end of the day, years later, what if it’s got us nowhere? The Law isn’t clarified? Back to square one, profoundly weakened and humiliated to boot. Meanwhile Scotland and the SNP will be destroyed by the Tories post-Brexit. Out of the EU that you’ve spouted on about for months now. Oh, say no more.

      Breeks you seem to like to complicate what is basically a straightforward situation. The simple fact is that when a majority of sovereign Scots support Independence we’ll be out of this Union …. and we’re nearly there.

    437. orri says:

      No parliament has the right to bind the hands of it’s successor is one of the fundamental principles of Westminster/UK politics.

      BJ’s both right and wrong. The idea of a second vote is very much up to the electorate at the next GE. And that principle must also apply to Holyrood.

      So the idea of a vote in a generation is contrary to what is meant to be a fundamental point of the UK’s constitution.

    438. Maybe part time clown and failed Conservative and Unionist council candidate Simon could be moving from Epping Forest to Scotland,

      The Scottish Conservatives are launching an autumn appeal for candidates from all backgrounds and communities for the next Scottish Parliamentary elections in 2021

      as a part time clown he would fit in with the three stooges of Ruth,Murdo & Tomkins.

    439. stu mac says:

      @orri says:
      3 October, 2018 at 8:34 am
      @stu mac

      Breaking the rules of competition by not disclosing the entirety of players contracts is what got Rangers kicked out of the Premier league.

      I’m highlighting this one point in your factless diatribe as an obvious proof that you don’t know (or are refusing to know) what you’re talking about.

      Rangers (the original club as they were then) went into liquidation because they wouldn’t pay their taxes. THEY WENT OUT OF BUSINESS! A new Rangers club was formed by Green who bought the old assets dirt-cheap and the SPL bosses tried to force them into the top division although a new club ought to start at the bottom. It was only through Scottish fan action that they were made to start at the bottom.

      When the tax action began against Rangers nothing was known about them not disclosing their use of EBTs and that should have had them stripped of titles if the normal football rules had been followed. As often with Rangers, they weren’t.

      At the time, EBTs were legal but not the way Rangers used them which was really just as extra pay. Rangers mis-used EBTs at the time regardless of what the tax rules later became. They were found guilty at the highest court of using them as a way of just paying more wages which wasn’t what EBTs were intended to be used for.

      That was the whole point of them hiding their use from the SPL and the SFA: they knew they weren’t supposed to be used the way they were using them.

      (Apologies to those who hate football but this is about a lot more than footie. It’s about honesty. And this site about challenging misrepresentation so it had to be said.)

    440. Dr Jim says:

      David Mundell makes an offer to appear as a witness for Kezia Dugdale knowing perfectly well that he would never be called to testify about anything as there is no criminal case and he would have no material evidence to offer and so anything he would have to say would be hearsay nonsense

      What would Mundell say? I really like Kezia a lot your honour and I don’t like nasty Stuart Campbell so gonnae please make him guilty of something coz he’s nasty and I don’t like him

      I’m no legal expert but I think Davie Clegg as political editor of the newspaper she wrote the crap in might be liable for NOT advising someone who is NOT a journalist to NOT slander somebody in print

      Unless of course that’s just what he intended

    441. Macart says:

      @ Nana

      Based on the sum of several of the links Nana, I’d say yes. Yes, the Chequers deal is a deliberate distraction. Yes, UK gov is aware is aware it’s a non starter (as are the EU) and yes. Yes, it is all about selling a narrative to the public. A narrative of blame. EU bad. Irish bad. SNP bad. Furriners in general bad, but mainly saintly Tories to be considered sin and stain free.

      It’s been either a hard brexit or no deal scenario for the better part of two and a quarter years tbh. The HVIII powers were always intended to allow a cabinet a free hand in the creation of ’emergency’ powers and grant the government du jour the freedom to do as they will to folks rights.

      They’re going to string out an official statement till the very last second I’d say. Wouldn’t do to give the other members of her preciousssss, preciousssss ideas of jumping ship for the lifeboats.

      Bit of a who knew (?) moment there. 😉

    442. stu mac says:

      Think there was a small mention of this before but more detail on this link:

      Basically Guardian being a “hit squad for the capitalist class”.

    443. Nana says:

      Morning Macart, hopefully something there of interest. I’ve never seen so many articles on Brexit and choosing the ones I think are suitable is a chore.

      It’s a never ending, ever changing subject unfortunately. Hard not to scream at times!

      Unable to access archive at the moment

      “describes preparing for all scenarios as the act of a ‘responsible government’ ” lol responsible government!

    444. Famous15 says:

      Anyone have the latest on this Saturday’s march in Edinburgh starting at 1pm in Johnstone Terrace or nearby? With my membership of HES in hand am tempted to start from Mons Meg!

    445. Les Wilson says:

      Here are the fuds who are stopping the use of public parks by
      AUB click photos to see more about them.But no real history of them, but all appear well heeled people with connections.
      Certainly do not seem to be Indy supporter types.

      Funny though, the top man is not listed and no photo or mention of him in the above list,Alex Paterson, Chief Executive. No photo on Linkedin either. Profile is available on that site but I am not signed up to that, maybe a winger is though.

      Just fed by my curiosity on just who these people are.

    446. galamcennalath says:

      ” Ross Thomson, a young Conservative member of parliament (MP) from Aberdeen in Scotland, electrified the crowd …. Thomson’s warm-up act was both savage and well-appreciated in the hall “

      What the Hell were voters in Aberdeen thinking about when they chose this Greater England Nationalist?

    447. Petra says:

      Great links Nana X

      I see that Jon Snow is complaining about Big T’s refusal to be interviewed by Channel 4. A first in decades. He’s saying that public broadcasters need to have access to politicians to maintain a healthy democracy (Nana 8:42am).

      Then we’re hearing about the ”police super database”. (Nana 8:42am).


      I reckon that the MSM in this country will have to get its act together, ASAP, and not leave it to people like Stu and Nana (and others on here) to get the truth out there.

      Remember the Pastor Martin Niemöller quote? Before we know it (more so they) journalists could be added to that list. In saying that some of them will no doubt have been ostracised already for not toeing the line. Who are they? Where are they now? Nobody knows, lol.

      ”First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

      Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

      Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

      (Then they came for the journalists and I did not speak out- because I was not a journalist.)

      Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

    448. Fireproofjim says:

      There is an AUOB website with route and time of the Edinburgh March.
      Weather looking excellent for Saturday.

    449. Nana says:

      Heart drug trials halted over Brexit fears

      James has been keeping a close eye on proceedings at the Canadian Ethics Committee, in which MPs will have a second opportunity to interview Zack Massingham over allegations Vote Leave financed BeLeave in the run up to the Brexit referendum.

    450. HandandShrimp says:

      Ross Thompson has his eyes on Mundell’s job. He is undoubtedly an Alan B’stard in the making.

    451. Alan Gerrish says:

      Terrific link Nana –

      Given the statement by Bernie Saunders, it would appear that the SNP government in Scotland was the only government in the world to take action against Amazon. Whilst acknowledging the campaigning by workers, campaigners and trades unions as well to secure the Real Living Wage now being implemented by Amazon in the UK and USA, it seems to me this action by the SNP should be used at every opportunity, politically and in the media, to demonstrate how effectively our FM is doing her “day job”.

      No other party or leader comes close, and all they can deliver is empty sound bytes, false promises, and of course downright porkies.

    452. Giving Goose says:

      Re Petra and attendance at Tory event.

      Either Tories take it for granted, with huge amounts of arrogance, that Scotland will not be going anywhere, or they genuinely don’t care that much about the Union.

      The attitude to Gibraltar is interesting. I’m guessing that this pulls at strings connected to Empire. Gibraltar is, in the eyes of your typical British Nationalist, land taken from a defeated Johnny Foreigner with British blood etc.

      It’s the sort of emotive subject that brings out marching bands, tales of daring-do and union flags fluttering in warm foreign breezes etc.

      As for Mundell’s demands for the SNP to do the day job, this should be turned around and batted back to him with a demand that he contribute and work alongside the Scottish Government in doing the day job. Somehow I doubt he’d take it on board in good spirit.

    453. Boris said ,

      -should somehow lose confidence in it’s basic belief in freedom and that after 1000 years of Independence this country-

      1000 years of Independence ?

      whit country is he talking about ,England signed away its Independence in 1707 with the Acts of Union same as Scotland.

    454. Daisy Walker says:

      Re Henry 8th Powers

      @ Liz g says:
      2 October, 2018 at 3:21 pm
      Daisy Walker @ 2.52
      Just a random thought as well Daisy..
      But it could be argued that in 2014 the Scots voted for the Westminster Parliament to continue to make Laws for Scotland..
      In the full knowledge that the Westminster Parliament claims the right to make or unmake any laws.
      So unless and until Scotland removes from Westminster the right to make Laws for Scotland they can and will use Henry vlll Laws if they want too!

      The Referendum question in 2014 was very specific – ‘Do you think Scotland should be an Independent country’.

      While it is obvious Westminster is trying to use the No vote to drive a horse and carriage through Devolution and the Act of Union. In reality, when you go back to the written treaty, the terms and conditions are extremely specific. There was nothing WRITTEN in the Referendum, to say, and if you vote no, do you agree that the Act of Union should be torn up and re-written.

      So, legally they are on a sticky wicket.

      In terms of Westminster passing laws which affect Scotland. As I understand it, this is a 2 stage process (and was the case even before devolution). For example, Road Traffic legislation is the same throughout the UK, but it has to be formally ratified by the Scottish office/parliament before it can be utilised here.

      The more I think about the Henry the 8th powers, the more I think that legally Scotland has an extremely strong case, and England and Wales also have a strong case to bin it.

      No Previous Government can tie the hands of the current Government is the cry, as they change the contract and steal our pensions, but by the same token and through the other end of the telescope, No Political Party gaining election can reach into the archives and pull out dictatorial powers from 500 years ago without some former warning to the electorate.

      What next, bring back witch burning?

      Likewise the Treaty of Union 1707, almost 150 years after the death of Henry 8th and the disuse of said powers. They (those negotiating) could have had no reasonable expectation that these powers could ever be pulled out of the hat with no say by the electorate/Scotland’s Representatives.

      Being realistic, in the modern age, when a government wishes to force through draconian measures, the normal procedure is to declare a state of emergency. No doubt that’s on their list of options too.

      kind regards to all.

    455. bjsalba says:

      Chief Executive

      Find out about Alex Paterson, Chief Executive of the lead public body for Scotland’s historic environment.

      Sorry if anyone has already put this up.

    456. miecassidy says:

      I’ve got a complaint against Nana.

      She provides a link to a news report about the empty main hall at the Tory Conference.

      It includes this quote.

      So the Tories have a problem. They need to sex up their conference


      You need to remember.

      Some of us are sensitive souls.

      We cant be expected to go around for the rest of the day imagining sexed-up tory conferences.

    457. Breeks says:

      …”Breeks you seem to like to complicate what is basically a straightforward situation. The simple fact is that when a majority of sovereign Scots support Independence we’ll be out of this Union …. and we’re nearly there…”

      Are we? When?

      Because all I see is ambivalence towards our place in Europe, complacency about all the dire warnings about Brexit, and that somehow Scotland will be spared the catastrophe of GM beef on your dinner plate and planes being grounded because somehow we’ll get a bespoke soft Brexit Deal without even having to negotiate it. We all laugh at Theresa May being delusional, but we are sitting here playing the same game of brinkmanship and reading the same damned script word for word!!!

      We have this truly bizarre phenomenon of waiting for a majority opinion to magically coalesce around Independence while doing absolutely NOTHING to nurture and encourage that swing in the polls. No pro Independence narrative, no pro Europe narrative, no engagement or dialogue with anybody. My, my, how creative and inspirational… The polls must rocketing in our fav…. oh.

      It seems, (who the fk knows?) a referendum on Independence has been kicked into the long grass once again, because apparently the SNP still cannot rule out the possibility of a mythical “not so bad” Brexit, or no Brexit at all, that might somehow be acceptable. So meantime, forget all your arguments of sovereignty, Constitutional subjugation, referendum mandates,… we don’t want any of that Constitutional malarkey creating awkward complications in the Brexit Delivery Room. Do we?

      We’re nearly there are we Petra? Terrific. Where exactly is “there”?

      Salvation which arrives AFTER March next year, after Scotland leaves Europe, is NOT salvation of ANY description, but humiliating and unmitigated defeat. I don’t see anything complicated about that. We need a Constitutional champion to protect our National Interests now, to avert catastrophe not merely mitigate it, and for reasons I fail to comprehend the SNP just don’t seem to relish the job.

    458. Nana says:

      Morning Petra,
      I was late this morning due to late night. It would take more than one critical comment to get rid of me 🙂

      @Alan 10.23am

      It’s not the first time Bernie has praised the Scotgov, I’m fairly sure I posted this link last May.
      A shame we don’t have a decent media to show our ain folk how good our SNP gov are. We have to do that job ourselves by sharing these articles.

      One from Mhairi Black before I go

    459. galamcennalath says:

      Scot Finlayson says:

      1000 years of Independence ?

      The Battle of Brunanburh AD937 is an interesting one. It was fought between Æthelstan. (England), and an alliance of those surrounding England – Constantine (Caesar!), Olaf Guthfrithson (Dublin), and Owen (Strathclyde). England won, but at such costs that the success couldn’t be built on.

      England centric historians see it as the point where England’s present boundaries were settled as threats from elsewhere in these Isles were neutralised.

      Alternatively, it can be seen as the point where English expansion was stopped, for a while. First Wales then Ireland were absorbed by conquest and finally Scotland by subterfuge.

      Make no mistake, the project has always been the creation and maintenance of Greater England. While England proper is about a millennium old, most folks down south simple see the ‘add on bits’ as just that – acquisitions. Boris is a confirmed English nationalist, and sees everything through an English prism.

    460. Liz g says:

      Nana @ 10.53
      Late night Nana eh?
      Do tell…

    461. galamcennalath says:

      “Britain and the European Union must focus on getting a divorce deal with an emergency Irish border fix before they embark on discussions on their post-Brexit trade ties “

      … however …

      “Britain’s preferred option of focusing on agreeing close future ties in trade. London wants this post-Brexit arrangement to regulate the Irish border”

      Round and round. May’s red lines mean it has to be a trade agreement with NI in a different customs zone. May wants more, but won’t take the responsibilities and obligations which come with the single market. Cake and eat it.

    462. Bob Mack says:


      No sorry. Nicola has been to Brussels several times this year, and I can guarantee you it wasn’t to look at sprouts. She actually is laying the groundwork for a very important issue. When the UK leaves officially then so do we. However Nicola is putting a very important piece of the jigsaw in place.

      The EU cannot and will not involve itself in UK internal matters. As of now Scotland to them is part of the UK. The end.

      What if Nicola gets assurances ( unknown to us) that readmission would be fairly expedient? Then we can say that leaving the UK would have us back in the EU for definite.

      After all, we think it is crazy to leave the EU in the first place, so why not clarify first we would be welcome almost immediately.

      Remember that EU politicians remember also we turned down the opportunity to be free of Westminster,and that is still a factor in their thinking. Why offer us carte blanche when we may turn down a further opportunity to be free of Westminster

      Everything in its time leads to a conclusion.

    463. Nana says:


      Night vision glasses well used and that’s all I’m gonna say 🙂

    464. Fred says:

      @ Galam, this year is the anniversary of the Battle of Carham in 1018 which checked English ambitions & Gaelic spread southwards to its greatest extent. Some sources quote 1016???

    465. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m also concerned that the Scottish government do not appear to doing sufficient to protect the human rights of Scots. The British constitution can not be legally justified against modern standards. The existing circumstances are those of English despotism over Scots.

      Allowing Scotland to be dragged out of the EU by Brexit, undermines the principle of global human rights and the international rule of law. Get it sorted!

    466. Bob Mack says:

      @Cameron Brodie,

      I take it you have a cast iron guarantee that the EU will allow Scotland to remain prior to an independence vote?

    467. CameronB Brodie says:

      Bob Mack
      No at all Bob, I just want my human rights protected from the toxic nature of contemporary English/British nationalism.

    468. Proud Cybernat says:


      Faisal Islam
      Verified account

      40m40 minutes ago

      James Duddridge MP announces live on Sky News that he has just submitted the 1922 letter “this morning I’ve written to Graham Brady to say I have no confidence in Theresa May”

    469. Abulhaq says:

      Tory party conference….Scotland? Where’s that? Right behind you!

    470. Liz g says:

      Daisy Walker @ 10.39
      RE. Henry the VIII Laws!
      While you’re right in that there was nothing written on the ballot paper about changing the Acts of the Union.
      We voted to keep the Union in 2014…. and in the full knowledge that the Westminster system has no restrictions on what laws it can impose.
      So yes they can change the Acts of Union… and for the first time since 1706 they had the consent of the people of Scotland to do so.
      What they cannot change is the Treaty of Union because it’s not only the UK Parliaments founding document, but it is a document that can’t be changed without our input and consent.
      They will never allow, if they can prevent it, that debate to come to the fore.
      But that’s what we were and are really talking about

      Although there, absent a couple of generations of education about Scottish History and the Union we live in, was no real alternative way to phrase the question and frame the debate in 2014.
      It wasn’t really about an Independent Country… we already have that… it was about Scotland staying in a Treaty agreement that says Westminster makes our Laws.

      They might have to write them separately but they still write them, and they write them to be in line with what Westminster are trying to achieve.
      So sadly Daisy ( and I’m sure you know how much I hate seeing that way )I have to disagree with your take on this… Westminster can argue they have our consent to apply legislation using Henry VIII Laws.
      And we did that to ourselves in 2014!!!

      Although, on the bright side, there’s enough of us trying to put it right !!!

    471. Fred says:

      Ross Thomson calls the Tories “Arseholes!” who can disagree with that?

    472. Bob Mack says:

      @Cameron Brodick,

      As do I Cameron,.However, politics is a minefield of legality and deals behind doors. To think the SNP and Nicola are unaware of what needs to be done and when it needs to be done is a rather endless pursuit.

      This lady spent her formative years talking independence on a barrow in Bannockburn to few listeners.

      There is always a systematic approach to everything she does.
      Just now , at this very moment there are so many variables influencing Brexit which all have to be considered Too many to list in fact.

      The way ahead is far from clear to many, but this much I do know. Nicola plans ,schemes and dreams of an independent Scotland which is good for everybody. We have to believe she still holds that dream, because without her leadership, where actually are we?

    473. Frank Gillougley says:

      This is about Amazon.

      Here’s the social reality – forget about philanthropic wage rises. It’s all bollocks.
      Due to ageism in the job market, I tried being a delivery driver for them just recently. For one week. that’s all I could endure. The ACTUAL rate of pay amounted to around £5 per hour actually worked. Your actual working day was between 12 and 14 hours. It was slavery. Having to deliver to non-existent neighbours and non-accessible safe places you wouldn’t believe the unthinking selfishness and stupidity that exists.Being the bottom of the corporate foodchain the driver picks up all the cock-ups. In Their own time. Its all a smokescreen. Please just ask yourself do I really need this item? If not buy local. I was good at it too and they were a good bunch of guys to work with hats off to them. I have no idea how they can sustain it day in day out. its just a machine. They owned you from 6 every morning, till 8-10 at night. Horrific. I’ll never order from them again. That’s the social reality of your click button life.

    474. galamcennalath says:

      Bob Mack says:

      The EU cannot and will not involve itself in UK internal matters.

      Alyn Smith MEP says everything will change at one minute past midnight Brussels time on Brexit day. He implies the change will be significant.

      I certainly hope so!

      Probably, the key thing will be that Scots show the world they want Indy – either through election results, or referendum. No one is going to take us seriously until that majority is obvious and accepted.

    475. ronnie anderson says: 12.30 .

    476. Abulhaq says:

      May laying on the schmaltz….ref to a Conservative pregnant lesbian as nxt FM of Scotland…

    477. Les Wilson says:

      Nana, we on wings owe you a great debt for all your hard work,finding great links, very many create informed and interesting discussion.
      Keep going, they are well appreciated, I for one think you are an unsung treasure. However, take care of your health please at the same time.

    478. Thepnr says:

      The Maybot’s malfunctioning!

    479. Abulhaq says:

      The SNP conference is going to have to be out and out, unashamedly Scottish nationalist.
      May in the Tory conference has set the mood. English nationalist to the core.
      Gloves off…this is a bare knuckle fight Nicola.
      May seem to believe in freedom…just not for the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish.

    480. Jack Murphy says:

      Apologies if this has already been posted.

      Holyrood Magazine is running an article about Ross Thomson Tory MP for Aberdeen South:

      Also in The National newspaper:

    481. Bob Mack says:

      May will most definitely refuse a Section 30 order. She intends to keep the UK together . Several times in her speech emphasised that fact. Festival of Britain? Perhaps for the Orange Order types up here who infest the Tories, but not for us.

      Marker required at SNP conference.

      As an aside, I find the sense of self entitlement in this speech astounding to say the least.

    482. HandandShrimp says:

      Hoping to go the march on Saturday. Looking at the route, it is quite short isn’t it and if 40,000 do turn up it is going to be cosy in Johnstone Terrace before we set off.

    483. ronnie anderson says:

      Sos folks for that posting at 12.18 mibbee’s Gary j Kelly is feart of the questions he would be presented with given the controversy they have caused before and after every march .

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