Nobody does it better
There has of course been a lot of chat since last night about the latest Ipsos Mori poll putting independence on 56%, with the usual suspects getting over-excited.
It remains to be seen whether the figures represent a short blip of anger over the Supreme Court decision, a more sustained but still temporary period of Yes support like that of summer 2020 – spring 2021, or a permanent shift in public opinion.
So as such they’re actually relatively uninteresting, although the SNP’s plan to do absolutely nothing to take advantage of any momentum that might exist, and to wait several months before even having a strategy conference, remains disturbing.
But what actually caught our eye about the poll were a couple of questions nobody else has reported on.
The headline figures on this question should be viewed in the context of reflexive party loyalty rather than any detailed assessment, because the SNP don’t come off all that much better. (Although the enormous 46-point difference in the case of “standing up for Scotland’s interests” is a striking one, and it’s perhaps quite surprising that Labour even scores as high as 35%.)
But what’s much more notable are the figures in the rightmost column, which shows significant (mostly double-digit) drops in trust for BOTH parties since 18 months ago. And the same was the case for the Tories.
Scottish voters, in short, are rapidly losing their faith in EVERYONE. And nowhere is that more starkly demonstrated than in another question.
Scottish Labour have been in opposition at Holyrood for 15 years, for most of which they’ve been the biggest opposition party. Before that they’d ruled Scotland basically unchallenged for nearly 50 years. It’s not as if they lack political experience.
So for barely a quarter of voters to consider them in a fit state to form the next Scottish Government – particularly at a time when UK Labour is 20 or more points ahead in UK polling – is a stat that beggars belief.
Scottish Labour have had a decade and a half to work out why they lost power and become a credible alternative, and their inability to do so is one of the most remarkable political failures in the history of the entire UK.
In that time they’ve been led by Jack McConnell, Wendy Alexander, Iain Gray, Johann Lamont, Jim Murphy, Kezia Dugdale, Robert someone and Anas Sarwar, yet have steadily fallen further and further behind – defying all normal political trends – even as the SNP have disintegrated from a competent party of government to a shambolically inept and spiteful dictator cult.
As the charts above show, it’s not that the popularity of Scotland’s other two main parties is holding them back. Voters are sullenly resigned to their awful options. It’s that Scottish Labour keeps doing the same thing (screaming “SNP BAD! 1979! Divisive obsession!” in a Union Jack suit) over and over and over again, constantly expecting a different outcome. Lobotomised mice in laboratories learn faster.
The Ipsos poll shows that almost 40% of Scottish Labour’s remaining voters support independence, something which has been the case for years, yet as far as we know not a single Labour MSP represents that view. That is in itself quite extraordinary. In any normally-functioning political party there would at least be factions and debate.
But this site is not suggesting and has never suggested that the branch office should adopt support for independence as a policy. That would be asking far too much in several ways. We’re also – very generously – assuming that Scottish Labour actually has any interest in forming a government, rather than just enjoying the cushy, lucrative, responsibility-free life of the opposition forever.
But it’s astonishing that it never even seems to occur to them that perhaps their current approach isn’t working and some serious thought about – for example – at least supporting the principle of Scottish self-determination might pay some dividends.
After all, if you truly believe the Scottish people don’t want independence, why would you be afraid of letting them say so? If you were really sure they wanted to remain in the UK, why lock and bar all the doors? Let the SNP hold as many referendums as they want. Deny them the grievances they thrive on. Let them exhaust the electorate’s patience. As Wendy Alexander cried in a brief moment of clarity: “Bring it on!”
But the Unionist parties don’t believe that. No matter how many polls show a No lead, interrupted only rarely by those like yesterday’s, they remain terrified of the voice of the Scottish people, as demonstrated by one more question from the Ipsos survey.
Scotland is plagued on all sides by its useless political class. Nationalist and Unionist leaders alike exist in states of cowering fear, either of not getting what they want or getting it. None has the courage to do anything differently, and as a result the country is trapped in a wretched spiral of (badly) managed decline without any hope of change.
History suggests that ONE day someone – from one side or the other – will come along with the intelligence to see a way out, do something about it and break the stalemate. But we see no signs that that day is coming any time soon.
Im emigrating to Mongolia
It surprises me that someone associated with (not necessarily a current member) of the Labour Party hasn’t had the initiative to provide a vision of their belief in how an independent Scotland could be run with labour values or government. It would be a cushty gig as a different voice on panels and in journalism until independence and then they would be in a prime position to run for election in a new Scotland. It would also do the yes side a massive favour by showing that yes is more than the SNP and the belief of many on both sides that Nicola will be anointed queen/president of independent Scotland with no other options of government except snp and their current opinion on how an iScotland should be like.
“Scottish Labour have had a decade and a half to work out why they lost power and become a credible alternative, and their failure to do so is one of the most remarkable political failures in the history of the entire UK.”
It’s almost like Scottish Labour never were actually a party, and when it became necessary to act like one, there was nothing to offer.
I’m pretty certain the SNP are now in that role/position.
Bloody hell that’s depressing, can’t disagree with your analysis though…
“Robert someone”, harsh but fair.
In 2019 Patricia Ferguson was out campaigning for Labour ( she was the candidate but did not introduce herself).
I told her none of us would vote Labour as they are denying self-determination to Scotland. You will get more votes if you support an indyref, I said.
“Scotland had an Indyref in 2014”, she said.
Undying loyalty to the English Empire, like a true Red Tory.
There is something fundamentally dysfunctional about a society that produces a generation of such self-satisfied unprincipled careerist throbbers.
What a pity that opinion polls can’t adequately monitor how fuckin disgusted many of us are – words like ‘betrayal’ and ‘dismay’ don’t even come close.
🙁
The breakup of the Union will be the final nail in the coffin of the monarchy and the elite who worship them endlessly. It’s hard not to get angry when the PM, Starmmer or Brown are the only ones who have a say on the constitutional question in Scotland and the people who stay here have no say what so ever when it comes to Westminster or Scotland.
Change is coming and it isn’t from the SNP, we might just find by the time the next election comes 56% supporting Independence will not matter because it might be England calling for to be Independent from the rest of the UK because of the living crisis and it’ll all be down to Labour and Tories.
O boy.
Unlike many Indy folk, I have never had any time for British Labour.
I am 100% a life long Indy Supporter.
Until the last decade, an iScotland was still my favoured position, despite knowing that it would mean a prolonged Labour Gvt in iScotland.
“A hae ma doobts noo”
The important position now is that being able to choose is the primary factor.
I have said in these pages before “Je suis un NORMALIST”
Good to have The Rev’s analytical mind reporting again. 12/10 Cheers
I am most impressed that the word ‘scunnered’ came up as much from the No supporters.
I’ve been informed in the past that if you want to be so much as a Councillor’s helper in the Labour Party, you need to swear undying loyalty to the Union (maybe not so dramatically but you get my drift). Anyone on the other side is rooted out at a very early stage.
Remembering the Labour North Accounting unit has has a whole series of so called leaders
that have all pledged that this time unlike was proven last time, has the power to create their own policies.
You guessed it. People like Dim Jim Murphy and Dippy Dugdale would announce a plan they have to the media, the media would check it out with their Masters HQ in London only to be advised that isn’t London Labour policy so it isn’t happening.
Queue the next puppet to announce they have autonomy.
Lamont admitted that she wasn’t sure how to react to the Tory Bedroom Tax so she contacted Miliband at London HQ.
He left her hanging for almost a year before saying he was against it but also against SNP Scot Gov paying for it as 81% of those adversely affected were on benefits. Mainly disability.
Ian Brotherhood says:8 December, 2022 at 2:15 pm
There is something fundamentally dysfunctional about a society that produces a generation of such self-satisfied unprincipled careerist throbbers.
What a pity that opinion polls can’t adequately monitor how fuckin disgusted many of us are – words like ‘betrayal’ and ‘dismay’ don’t even come close.
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The problem is that polls only reflect the questions asked and the questions asked by the extremes on both sides always are biased and return the poll answers they want to see. So it largely depends on who commissioned the polls, the company involved here only asked the questions it was paid to ask. So much of what we are fed nowadays only seems to be for political points alone fed to us by complete utter hypocrites. link to msn.com
Rev wrote:
“As the charts above show, it’s not that the popularity of Scotland’s other two main parties is holding them back. Voters are sullenly resigned to their awful options. It’s that Scottish Labour keeps doing the same thing (screaming “SNP BAD! 1979! Divisive obsession!” in a Union Jack suit) over and over and over again, constantly expecting a different outcome. Lobotomised mice in laboratories learn faster.”
“Lobotomised mice in laboratories learn faster.”
LOL! Comment of the year. Certainly lifted my depression.
No wonder they hate you, Campbell. The truth hurts! 😉
Labour’s reluctance is more puzzling when they must know that the SNP would simply dissolve politically in Scotland after independence
And that Labour in Scotland would be the obvious group to fill the political vacuum
As you say
Until someone in their ranks is more attracted to the possibility of being Prime Minister of Scotland rather than First Minister
They will continue to be drowning not waving
This the perfect time for Sturgeon to resign, and trigger a snap Holyrood election, but her priorities come before that of Scotland’s.
“THE SNP would command a majority at Holyrood and the Greens would return a record number of MSPs after a fresh Scottish parliament election, new polling has suggested.
Figures from polling firm Ipsos Mori show that pro-independence parties would return a combined 82 seats – 10 more than now – in a new Holyrood vote. This would give them 17 seats more than the 65 needed to hold a majority in the 129-seat Scottish parliament.
The SNP would return 67 MSPs, meaning they would have a majority in the chamber even without the Greens’ support, according to seat projections from Ballot Box Scotland.”
link to 12ft.io
Meanwhile who gives a monkey’s if Wishart steps down from the front bench, and that Whitehall puppet Stewart McDonald has just done the same, so what how does that help us exit this prison of a union, it doesn’t.
SNP MPs need to walk out of Westminster for good for it to have any impact. They have no power in the HoC.
@Joe (2.48) –
Imagine a pollster asked Scots whether or not they support civil disobedience?
The Just Stop Oil campaign has been making headlines for months. And that’s largely people sitting in the middle of the road or spraying paint on banks and car showrooms.
The very fact that the betrayed Yes movement has done *nothing at all* to raise general awareness of our plight speaks volumes – any objective outsider would reach the reasonable conclusion that we just don’t want independence as much as some would have them believe.
…they must know that the SNP would simply dissolve politically in Scotland after independence.
Isn’t it more likely that post indy there will be a range of “new” parties, even if some of them end up being old wine in new bottles? I can’t see an organisation like the SNP just withering on the vine post indy given the commanding position they’ve had for the past few decades, and the likelihood that they will still be a major part of achieving indy, however much many of us abhor them and particularly their current leadership.
I reckon you’ll see a “soft” centre left party that lots of ex New Labour types would feel happy joining, a slightly further left more radical party coalescing round the SNP, far left RISE/SSP types in their own parties and Greens.
Hopefully with STV you might get some new entrant parties too, and there will be centrist/liberals and right of centre parties too. Who knows l, you might even see the emergence of parties for interest groups like OAPs, rural / island communities etc.
Given the way the SNP has turned out it has to be a huge plus of indy that moving forward no party will ever be likely to exert the kind of influence it has in the Parliament of an independent Scotland.
Another resigns from SNP Westminster front bench:
“Glasgow MP Stewart McDonald has also announced he is stepping away from the front bench. He has served as SNP spokesman for defence since 2017 said thanked “his friend” Mr Blackford for the opportunity.”
“He congratulated Mr Flynn on his election and said he was confident the new leadership would keep the party’s unity at the “forefront”. We are at our best when we collaborate as a united party and sell a modern vision of what Scotland can still achieve,” he said.”
“Speaking to journalists after First Minister’s Questions – and before the resignation of Mr McDonald – Nicola Sturgeon said she had not seen the letter from Mr Wishart, adding the leadership change was “done and dusted.”
“When asked how her relationship is with Stephen Flynn, she said “great, fantastic”.”
Labour are quite happy where they are.
A dregs party the d’hont system allow them to get a few MSPs, and for those MSPs they are happy to dodge along, take the money, throw a few yaboo mud pies.
Political pygmies in what is now a pygmy parliament.
Wishart and McDonald stepping back from the front bench is nothing more than SNP MP musical chairs, it doesn’t matter a hoot who becomes the SNP MPs leader at Westminster they have no power, their presence in the HOC is irrelevant they are outnumbered at every turn their presence in the HOC only gives the Westminster chamber an air of democracy and makes the indy movement look foolish, in such as we want independence e but we’ll play by your rules by sending MPs to legitimise your parliament.
It won’t make any difference who stands up at PMQs on a Wednesday and says Scotland won’t stand for it, nothing will happen. No, actions speak louder than words, and the actions we’re looking for is for all the SNP MPs to walk out of the HoC never to return, any other form of action is just paying lip service to the indy masses.
The Rev has shown us step-by-step a perfectly good way to exit this prison like union, and it could be done next year and at Holyrood, that should be our main focus, not the head turning bread and circuses event that are going on at Westminster with the SNP MPs.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
England is part of an off shore island and thinks in accord with the appropriate insularity.
Its history, particularly the colonial bit, is replete with the «we’re different mentality» and until now it has got away with it. Scotland is off shore too but historically the mentality has generally been quite otherwise.
Nevertheless, contemporary Scottish political life seems handicapped by people who seem scared to imagine/contemplate life without that «special relationship». A dependency mentality indicative of low esteem which the system fully exploits.
Even tarts demand payment for their favours.
Why should there not be a broad spectrum of pro independence parties?
Scareeee!
One advantage of the 56% poll is that it should stop The National’s “Indy support surges to 52%” headlines.
I doubt it will though.
“The very fact that the betrayed Yes movement has done *nothing at all* to raise general awareness of our plight speaks volumes – any objective outsider would reach the reasonable conclusion that we just don’t want independence as much as some would have them believe.”
Ian.
That is the crux of the matter apathy surrounds Scots when it comes to getting proactive on the indyfront, oh a few marches waving flags and bikers twisting the throttle is really the limit to it.
We bleat and moan and rail about Sturgeon betraying the country, but that’s it, a couple of weeks ago a court in foreign land told Scots that they can’t leave this union unless the foreign country’s government says so. In other countries there would’ve been mass rioting Kensigton House in Glasgow and Queen Elizabeth House in Edinburgh both staging posts for this foreign country would’ve been ransacked and torched if they were in other countries.
About four month ago the citizens of Sri Lanka stormed their parliament sick and tired of the corruption and of the poverty in the country.
Scots however will just accept whatever the foreign governments parliament dishes out to Scots and we’ll also suck up whatever our own treacherous FM dishes out to us as well.
Rev.
Could we have a national campaign to adopt Michael Marras song Hermless as the Scottish national anthem.
Imagine it sung in football stadiums.
That would get debate going
If support is rising Nicola is going to have to think of something to f… It up of she will be pressured from above.
Long time in the barL beckons
It’s always useful to look at what isn’t up for discussion rather than what is when assessing societies and political parties.
And it’s hardly surprising that our political parties have banned freedom of information, expression, and debate when it’s effectively been banned in society at large.
There’s a growing list of subjects that the MSM basically refuses to discuss in any sort of balanced way, including the war in the east, gender identity issues, the role and character of the royals, Scottish independence, the plight of Palestinians, etc. We could add a lot more.
In the social sciences and the study of things like history, it isn’t controversial to suggest priorities like that reflect the underlying power relations of a given society.
Scotland, as most of us agree, is essentially a colony with no say in fundamentals like its own status and political future, macro economic policy, foreign affairs, defence, etc.
All of these subjects go to the heart of the power relationship we have with our biggest neighbour which simply refuses to allow us to discuss them freely — discussion on those subjects (and any changes that might spring from discussion) simply isn’t in the interests of those that benefit from the status quo (which is essentially colonial) and, unsurprisingly, there is none in any meaningfully balanced sense.
What’s surprising when you look into behavioural studies like the famous Milgram Experiment is that educated types who often claim to liberals and democrats are typically the most conformist when it comes to unquestioningly abiding by authoritarian controls. History is replete with examples, as are online discussion forums.
@ Shug
Well there’s always the egg, and turkey “crises” to be used to stall making any progress, although I’m not sure which came first…
Although I guess sorting those problems would piss off the vegan vote!
Only 56%. Ffs.
News from abroad – The UK as an emerging market? Surely a typo – submerging.
link to edition.cnn.com
Meanwhile back in the mighty UK, they have a cunning plan to deal with such truths. Special sunglasses for No voters to be worn at all times.
“Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses have been specially designed to help people develop a relaxed attitude to danger. At the first hint of trouble, they turn totally black and thus prevent you from seeing anything that might alarm you.”
? Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
“THE SNP would command a majority at Holyrood and the Greens would return a record number of MSPs after a fresh Scottish parliament election, new polling has suggested.
Figures from polling firm Ipsos Mori show that pro-independence parties would return a combined 82 seats – 10 more than now – in a new Holyrood vote. This would give them 17 seats more than the 65 needed to hold a majority in the 129-seat Scottish parliament.
The SNP would return 67 MSPs, meaning they would have a majority in the chamber even without the Greens’ support, according to seat projections from Ballot Box Scotland.”
It appears that ALBA are on course for yet another hammering from the Scottish electorate (they will also lose both Westminster seats at the next UK election). It is time for people to admit that the ALBA project has been a mitigated disaster. I still remember their hilariously pathetic launch, where it was one technical fault after another.
@Christopher Pike
You obviously do not understand why ALBA had to form, who is in it and why it is vital that it exists.
The “ Labour Party in Scotland” nothing but a second class branch subsidiary of the UK Britnat to the hilt ( including Broon) UK Labour Party ( 2nd eleven reserve government when the misguided English electorate finally see through the establishment 1st eleven “ millionaire friendly “ shambles of a government) . That’s usually about “ once in a generation” . A phrase synonymous with 2014 when given the opportunity by a REAL STATESMAN,AS the NO vote ensured that Scots can now reap the rewards of being “ Better together” in sickness & poverty “ under the heel of the Tory establishment determined to return to “ The Victorian era” .
Aye right “ better together” ok then ?? No voting mugs !!
Family members at the Sheku Bayoh Inquiry walk out of Court disgusted at yet another delay in the police evidence. The Scottish legal system is a national disgrace & embarrassment. What a horrible way to treat anyone.
__________
The SNP’s Health Secretary, Hoozat Useless, has a nerve to say he has sleepless nights about the SNHS. I bet not nearly as much as folk like us who, in this energy-rich Scotland, are afraid to put all our heating on and adequately heat our homes. When you have to move everything into one room, Useless, just to keep warm then you can talk about sleepless nights you fricken pilchard. And we’re not even pensioners yet. Thank fck!
link to tinyurl.com
A positive indy poll now means zero, zilch, nada, nothing, if it’s not acted on, there could be a poll where 80% wants to see an indy Scotland it means hee haw if you don’t have the right FM in place to do something about it.
Sturgeon wants us to wait a whopping two more years before she decides to use the next GE as a de facto indyref. Look at her record on independence it screams out to me I’ve done f*ck all on the indyfront, she’s stalling for time, ask yourself why she had the die-hard unionist Lord Advocate ask a foreign country’s court to decide if we can leave this prison of a union, and then ask yourself why she didn’t do the same thing with her GRR bill.
Trust in the SNP chart.
Sturgeon asked to be judged on her record. This chart shows what people think about her performance.
This is why she wants to prevent any discussion of these matters at the next election by making it a single issue election.
It’s a trap. She’s teeing it up to fail, but is ensuring another 5 years in office for her and her mates for as long as they want to stuff themselves at the trough funded by Westminster. That is their reward for ensuring a ‘no’ vote prevails.
‘The country is trapped in a wretched spiral’. So true. Sturgeon has twisted it round her little finger, and people have let her do it – the worst offenders being the MSPs and MPs who have shirked their duty to stop the madness.
The road to independence? ‘I wouldn’t start from here’ seems to be the place we are at.
“But this site is not suggesting and has never suggested that the branch office should adopt support for independence as a policy. That would be asking far too much in several ways. We’re also – very generously – assuming that Scottish Labour actually has any interest in forming a government, rather than just enjoying the cushy, lucrative, responsibility-free life of the opposition forever.
But it’s astonishing that it never even seems to occur to them that perhaps their current approach isn’t working and some serious thought about – for example – at least supporting the principle of Scottish self-determination might pay some dividends.”
——
I couldn’t agree more.
SLab don’t need to be pro-indy. They just need to be pro-resolution of the indy question one way or another. Indeed, I’d go as far as to say they have no realistic hope of reviving their fortunes until it is resolved.
They’ve proven they can’t out-Union the Conservative and Unionist party, so if they’re not going to out-indy the SNP then they have to find a middle way.
The obvious middle way is to support a referendum and then allow itself to genuinely and rationally consider the pros and cons on both sides, to be both the referee of the debate between the SNP and the Tories and the alternative third voice, rather than just reflexively reaching for either the “SNP bad” or the Paw Broon devo-max intervention.
But I can’t see them ever being that sensible.
“The obvious middle way is to support a referendum and then allow itself to genuinely and rationally consider the pros and cons on both sides, to be both the referee of the debate between the SNP and the Tories and the alternative third voice, rather than just reflexively reaching for either the “SNP bad” or the Paw Broon devo-max intervention.”
Yep. It’s impossible to escape the cynical conclusion, therefore, that they’re not interested in actually forming a government, and just want to perpetuate a cosy job-creation scheme for a couple of dozen otherwise-unemployable numpties and their assorted hangers-on.
Keep on «culling» Sturgeon, before long there may be nobody left to care about that annoying sovereignty matter.
link to archive.vn
Scotland, the battery chicken that couldn’t see it coming.
Just who is she working for? ScotExterm?
…they must know that the SNP would simply dissolve politically in Scotland after independence.
I don’t think so. That was what I used on the campaign trail for many years when asking voters to lend us your vote. Now however, I believe that too many have got used to the ‘power”. They now see themselves as the ‘governing party’. Hopefully, as a broad church, there will be members/activists who realise that an Independent Scotland needs a mix of parties and a more left of centre party. The NuSNP won’t fullfil that purpose!
More of the same «virtuous» authoritarianism.
link to archive.vn
Christopher Pike says:
8 December, 2022 at 5:24 pm
“THE SNP would command a majority at Holyrood and the Greens would return a record number of MSPs after a fresh Scottish parliament election, new polling has suggested.
Figures from polling firm Ipsos Mori show that pro-independence parties would return a combined 82 seats – 10 more than now – in a new Holyrood vote. This would give them 17 seats more than the 65 needed to hold a majority in the 129-seat Scottish parliament.
The SNP would return 67 MSPs, meaning they would have a majority in the chamber even without the Greens’ support, according to seat projections from Ballot Box Scotland.”
All I can say to that is God help Scotland. Frankly the idea of this current SNP winning an outright majority in Holyrood fills me with fear for my children and grandchildren. I never thought I’d say that about them.
Republicofscotland says:8 December, 2022 at 5:59 pm
A positive indy poll now means zero, zilch, nada, nothing, if it’s not acted on, there could be a poll where 80% wants to see an indy Scotland it means hee haw if you don’t have the right FM in place to do something about it.
Sturgeon wants us to wait a whopping two more years before she decides to use the next GE as a de facto indyref. Look at her record on independence it screams out to me I’ve done f*ck all on the indyfront, she’s stalling for time, ask yourself why she had the die-hard unionist Lord Advocate ask a foreign country’s court to decide if we can leave this prison of a union, and then ask yourself why she didn’t do the same thing with her GRR bill.
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“the die-hard unionist Lord Advocate ” Seriously ? An LA appointed by Sturgeon but backed by the whole SNP and previously known to be a yes Voter ? Have you been on the drinking early tonight ? link to thetimes.co.uk
The issue is simple She also is a very good Advocate with a long list of career successes which simply means she know and is qualified to understand the actual law much better than randoms on Social Media are. If you think you know the law better than she does somehow I and most other sane people wouldn’t believe you.link to en.wikipedia.org
Better i think to go out and campaign for this instead ?
“Asked in reference to Gove’s comments to outline what he felt would show there was a “settled will” for a new referendum, Jack pointed to a figure of “60 percent” of Scots.
“If you consistently saw 60 percent of the population wanting a referendum — not wanting independence but wanting a referendum [to take place] — and that was sustained over a reasonably long period, then I would acknowledge that there was a desire for a referendum,” Jack said. “Anyone can see that.”
link to politico.eu
Forensic analysis Stu. And I liked your caveats. Predictability is a stranger to the political landscape. Still movement in the HoC. Won’t do harm, Sturgeon feeling the precarious shoogly peg on the back of her coat. About time. A shake up of some sort was sorely required.
IanB @3:20pm
Agreed, the Yes movement have been trying to make an omelette without breaking the eggs for some time.
I think Manny Singh was the last one to thumb his nose at the authorities.
Neil in Glasgow says:8 December, 2022 at 2:46 pm
I’ve been informed in the past that if you want to be so much as a Councillor’s helper in the Labour Party, you need to swear undying loyalty to the Union (maybe not so dramatically but you get my drift). Anyone on the other side is rooted out at a very early stage.
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LOL They clearly didn’t manage to spot the previous FM Henry McLeish then ? Maybe the truth is that your information simply has no fact at all in it at all. link to holyrood.com
Which then begs the question. Why not hold a Holyrood referendum and watch those indy Labour voters switch to indy parties. Its a no brained.
Yet Nicola wants a WM referendum, where Labour supporters will be caught up with UK GE. So in essence they will vote differently at WM level. Because they misguidedly think a Labour UK government will be good for Scotland.
You missed a bit Stuart. Allowing women with pricks to stick them in women without pricks. Sturgeon’s SNP 100%. Everyone else 0%.
You missed a bit Stuart. Allowing women with pricks to stick them in women without pricks. Sturgeon’s SNP 100%. Everyone else 0%.
“If you consistently saw 60 percent of the population wanting a referendum — not wanting independence but wanting a referendum [to take place] — and that was sustained over a reasonably long period, then I would acknowledge that there was a desire for a referendum,” Jack said. “Anyone can see that.” Alistair Jack
This is the guy who thinks East and West change depending on which way you are facing.
Why is he focusing on the number of people who want a referendum?
If polls were saying 56% wanted independence and only 40% wanted a referendum would you not question the reliability of the poll or try to find out what the remaining 16% wanted.
” “If you consistently saw 60 percent of the population wanting a referendum — not wanting independence but wanting a referendum [to take place] — and that was sustained over a reasonably long period ”
By ” reasonably long ” Cracker Jack means between 2 n 5 centuries , but his own preference is a millennium . Which , coincidentally , is the same time-frame the Sturgoid Crew have in mind
O/T; Eight months? Suspended sentence? For knocking a lad off his motorbike and killing him?
Oh, I see, don’t upset the U.S. overlords…
link to archive.vn
New lord advocate Dorothy Bain QC ‘backs referendum’
Why do folk post links to articles that are behind a paywall?
Legal sources said that Dorothy Bain QC would be “likely to give a referendum bill the green light” once she was installed as the Scottish government’s senior legal adviser.
Would that be before or after she found if it was legal to do so?
Rev i think you have perfectly summed up the political state Scotland is in.
@Rev Stu says
This is like a Bat Signal to bring out Gordon Brown!
“Is it a bird?”
“Is it a plane?”
“No, it’s more powers for Scotland, it’s change within the UK!”
Hurrah!
Callum Jones at the UK Polling Report has always ice bucket challenged the latest “we’re on our way” polling results:
link to pollingreport.uk
Derek
You forgot – while driving on the wrong side of the road.
‘Ottomanboi says:
8 December, 2022 at 7:27 pm
More of the same «virtuous» authoritarianism.
link to archive.vn‘
You know, it’s funny. Picketing abortion clinics, PC censorship – all this shit started out in America, and has come across here through the media, with halfwits and lunatics anxious to copy their braindead Yank ‘cultural’ heroes.
This country used to be renowned for intellect. Now it’s been so fucking braindrained that a set of quarter-wit chancers and lunatics in all parties can smugly spout their utter pish at us mourning, noon, and nightmare. Tragic how degraded this country has become in all ways, it really is.
After my last vote in Scotland by spoiling my ballot paper, I emigrated to Hungary about a year and a half ago. So glad not to be subject to that whole Scottish circus of political keech anymore. I saw brexit coming and applied for my irish passport (which i refer to as my sectarian dividend) so as to remain european. And no, i’m not a supporter of oor victor, but am just so glad to be out of such a depressing colony. I have only been back once since, and felt like a ghost.
“Scottish voters, in short, are rapidly losing their faith in EVERYONE”
This.
Of course, if 60% consistently supported independence in the polls, they’d simply announce that polls don’t matter. That goes for votes and seats too.
It’s the rule of law that matters in a democratic colony. They wrote the law, and there isn’t 60% of anything that will make them change it.
The acid test for our man Flynn is pretty straightforward. If he sits in the commons putting up with this abuse, the most he can ever hope to achieve is a place in the footnotes.
Anger at SNP I understand
Scottish government deciding to not have a Scottish election to get a majority which can be used to declare independence i do not agree with its a great opportunity missed and a further unnecessary delay in my opinion
Going to the Supreme Court a construct of Englands Westminster to ask if British law allows Scottish government to hold a Scottish independence referendum without Westminsters permission was in my opinion stupid it doesn’t take much thinking to understand that the Supreme Court determines everything by the book of Law as written in Westminster so of course they would say NO
The question is did Scotland need to ask the Supreme Court that question in the first place ? Well , NO they didn’t
So why did they ?
Well , if you want an amicable separation you need both parties to agree terms so that when it comes to dividing the wealth you have both accrued it will be done fairly by those agreed terms
If one party refuses to agree terms and the other forces it by leaving then you may find that they will leave with nothing and the joint wealth is kept by the uncooperative party who then refuses to share or divide it with you , they may hide it refuse to confirm it exists etc etc anyone who has ever been through marital separation will know very well how bad that can turn out
England being a much bigger country than Scotland could easily take everything and bully Scotland the day we declare independence , they’ve done this before
In a marital separation there are courts that will take control of joint wealth and then decide how it is to be divided and chase it down to make sure it is divided but in the bigger outside world there is no court on this planet that will seize Scotland and Englands assets / wealth and determine how it should be split and that is the problem , it’s a problem for Scotland , not for England so much because they already control the wealth / assets of both Scotland and England
NS , SNP and Scottish government knew before they went to Supreme Court what the answer would be but the reason they did it is so that in the future they can show the world that all the efforts of amicable agreement they made with England were refused
Why is that important. .? It’s important because when Scotland does declare independence you can be absolutely sure that England will say they do not recognise it and refuse to agree to it
There is absolutely nothing ever that will persuade England to agree to it
NS keeps asking for negotiation but Englands Westminster is closing all the doors , from the inside , refusing a referendum on independence , saying they will not accept a majority voting for SNP Greens etc in a Scottish election where the question is presented as one for independence
The only other option going by Westminsters rules is a General election where the question is presented as one for Scottish independence
We already reckon that Westminster will refuse that result too
but at that point Scottish government can say that they have tried all ways open to them as per Westminsters rule book
I think the world looking on will agree and accept that Scotland declaring independence with majorities in several elections is the only option they had left
Hopefully Flynn sacks Blackman in the morning.
Blackman is pretend Department for Work and Pensions grifter MP. She really is putting herself in her clients shoes.
On 84K plus £217K expenses, in which she claimed her energy payments.
I hope he fires her. She’s a disgrace.
@Hatuey 10:07pm
He has been 5 minutes in the job. Although it was a disappointment to me that he followed Blackford by answering his own question. The Whitford question was nearer the mark because that was a question. Haven’t these people ever watched Brian Walden or Robin Day?. Ask a question and months or years later replay the answer. So every week, ask the same first question. In a voluntary equal Union why does Westminster rule on the legitimacy of a Scottish Independence vote?. The second question should be on current affairs. He can put the Doc Marten boots on for that. Even people in England will eventually realise a second Independence vote is inevitable. As long as Sturgeon is not in charge we will win that vote.
.
Stuart,
You could publish this thread’s tour de force article in book format, free for 100,000 (via crowdfunded here). Though a more apt title is…
WEE BLUE BOOK: HOW TO REPAIR SCOTLAND.
There would need to be a SECOND BOOK.Ideally before the next Holyrood/Westminster election. Why? To give the Alba Party a decent nudge.
Does anyone remember how many decades the SNP had a puny 6 MPs in Westminster? Is that not the “abysmal” 1% old Wet Pishfart keeps slagging off the Alba Party for?
If memory serves, under Alex Salmond several tipping points were reached when he kicked the SNP’s puny 1% up the ‘erse…
2007 when Alex got the SNP INTO government at Holyrood and booted out tired old “new” Labour.
2010 when Alex got fed up with the 1% old Westminster SNPs. This was a tipping point. 6 SNP MPs (the next election at Westminster was, as Stuart Campbell put it… built on 54 months work by Alex Salmond. But 2010 was cr@p at 6 MPs link to news.bbc.co.uk
2011 when Alex Salmond pulled off the impossible and secured a MAJORITY government in Holyrood: 69 SNP MSPs out of 129 – link to bbc.co.uk
2015 when Alex Salmond’s work moved Scotland’s SNP MP count from 6 to 56. From the pathetic 1% to nearer 10% of the UK link to bbc.co.uk
This is my point. The festering Pete Wishart arrogantly claims the SNP are unassailable and puny Alba cannae manage 1%.
If Stuart starts publishing Blue Books into the wider Scottish civic society, I be one of Stuart’s legendary bet we can get Alba up to 50% of the number of pro-Indy MSPs and MPs.
When wider Scotland and its sophisticated electorate get the truth about Sturgeeon, ALL THIS CR@P WILL CHANGE. SCOTLAND WILL GET BETTER.
The tadpole sized SNP suddenly grew to become the governing party because Alex Salmond was smart enough to govern well.
If Stuart starts publishing mainstream books and posting them out (crowdfunded), then he WILL reach the parts we need to reach.
That would be a wonderful way to get Sturgeon booted out from her imposter syndrome SNP FM.
SNP MPs should stop the Empire administration. They should end participation in parliamentary committees and stop the Shadow Minister crap – when they will never be UK Govt ministers.
Their time would be better spent preparing for an independent Scotland, instead of trying to fix the failing, dying Empire of England.
In fact, they shouldn’t be at Westminster at all, except to say goodbye and good riddance to the imperialist oppressors who try to keep Scotland a prisoner of the English Crown.
link to twitter.com
Those last two paragraphs really make the point. ALL sides in this, have just carried on treading water, but really going nowhere.
I mean FFS, Labour’s Scottish branch office just dug up the fossilised failure Gordon Brown, for another ‘intervention’. Allegedly the intention was to save the union, but there was no new thinking whatsoever, none. The same old ‘hahaha, shut the f*** up Scotland‘ nonsense we have seen for the last twenty years from Labour. Hey Labour it hasn’t worked for the last twenty years, so why the F do you think it will suddenly be a vote winner now??? British Labour’s Scottish branch office – thick as ten lavvie seats, and that’s being generous.
Then we have the SNP, lterally handed record-breaking mandate after freaking mandate, over and over and over again, yet they do nothing. Not one f***ing thing to move towards independence. They behave like timid mice, feart to do anything Westminster won’t approve of. Feart, feart, feart, ( or Frit, frit, frit, to coin a phrase!) Truly pathetic.
Many years ago, an office full of admin types I used to occasionally enter in a business had a big jokey image on the wall, and it simply said “If you don’t know what to do, hold a meeting”. It seems like the SNP saw it too, and didn’t realise it was a joke. The English pretendy ‘supreme’ court tells Scotland it is a mere piffling colony of England, so what do the SNP do? Hold a meeting – sometime next year.
No wonder folk are fed up. It really is a sh*te state of affairs, and all the opinion polls in the world won’t make any f***ing difference.
George: “He has been 5 minutes in the job.”
Which by my estimation is about 4 minutes longer than necessary. How long would it take to grasp the colonial nature of the situation Scotland is in and announce you’re walking out in protest?
If he did that, support for independence would skyrocket.
Nothing he does whilst sitting in there, no way of putting things, no style of delivery, no theatrics or any clever point he makes, nothing will come close in terms of demonstrating he is serious about independence than simply walking out in protest.
It is as if at the entrance to Holyrood there is a sci-fi vapour that removes all intelligence, awareness, and decent principle that the MSPs had before they were elected.
It’s not only the SNP and Green MSPs, although they are the worst since they have had the power and the mandates to do one valuable thing that would allow Scotland to put right every social and economic injustice that has been inflicted on us, and are studiously ignoring it.
Look at the LibDems, Labour and some Conservatives who are going along with the GRA. For heavens sake – why are they letting Marks & Spencer, H&M, Primark, the Prison Service, the schools etc operate a policy of men in women’s changing rooms and toilets even BEFORE the law has been changed? And why are they prepared to have women’s and girls’ rights removed? I despair.
@Hatuey 11:21pm
Well I read his profile and he is an ‘Arab’ so he gets 10 minutes from me. Walking out has achieved nothing, ask Blackford. It comes over as an immature stunt. Ask the question repeatedly. We have waited over 300 hundred years so I am willing to give him 10 minutes. Independence will not skyrocket as long as Sturgeon is in control. She is the burden and anchor we all have to bear.
@Sarah 11:31pm
We support your stance unequivocally. I wrapped up my present to my wife, a suffragette scarf amongst other gifts. I hope she wears it on Boxing day. Because this argument won’t go away on the 21st December as the ‘milk monitor’ would like, rushing it through to gain wee girl brownie points. The campaign starts on Boxing Day.
@ TheSNPLeftMe says:
8 December, 2022 at 9:54 pm
Derek
You forgot – while driving on the wrong side of the road.
Well, there’s that too – but a short suspended sentence for killing someone – with fault – on the road? Come on! It’s bad enough riding a bike anyway without you being treated almost as a lesser being by the courts. I am an avid user of two wheels, whether powered or not.
You’re using Blackford’s resignation after years of pathetic failure as an example of someone walking out in protest, and saying it proves walking out in protest doesn’t work?
That’s awesome. You should write for The Guardian or something.
I’m truly impressed.
Sorry, but the Murrels, Robertsons, Blackfords, Wisharts, Smiths etc. have poisoned the well, and there’s no way I can see myself voting SNP, under ANY circumstance.
Anyone see the Westminster group photo on Flynn’s twitter feed? It’s like a sea of smiling faces, but Cherry isn’t smiling. She looks pretty pissed off;
link to twitter.com
The SNP and “Nicla the chicken” are more yellow than the party colours. Maybe brown would fit better, NO, NO not that one…!!! 🙂
David Hannah. 10.29pm
“Hopefully Flynn sacks Blackman in the morning”.
Great call.
She’s up there in the Sturgeon league when it comes to evil, twisted, perverted bitches.
As I said t’other night sturgeon doesn’t want a ref or independence she would shit herself BECAUSE it would show her and her MORONS up MORE for the complete failures they are , they are doing it just now but only getting away with those failures because it is happening in stages and people aren’t noticing it fast enough
Labour also doesn’t want Scottish governance because it would also show they’re as much clueless as sturgeon The tories in Scotland and the uk only want it to steal from everyone
People in England seemed to love bungling Boris with his wild blond air tossed around like a haystack in a storm.
Visual looks seem to count for the shallow voters of the U.K.
Do you remember Michael Foot being demonised for wearing a duffle coat at the Cenotaph?
Many sailors died in the war wearing these coats so I never did see any problem.
Our new Westminster SNP leader bald as a baby just might be joining Haig, Duncan-Smith,
and Kinnock.
All millionaire failures of course but political failures.
How sad people tend to vote on what’s outside and not inside.
I think we got back to 1950 Clement Attlee for the last totally bald PM
although Churchill was pretty scarce on top.
Maybe why I didn’t bother.
The Daily Hail had its most pathetic attack in a while condemning Meghan Markle for wearing white so often as it’s an impractical colour?
Incidentally the same fascist fanzine has many previous features on how Kate Middleton looked resplendent in various all white outfits through the years.
Are they racist, are they attacking anyone who has a bad word for the monarchy or just a diversion from the utter disaster of their beloved Tory party?
They must be awarded the years most pathetic piece of journalism 2022.
The GRA has been law since 2004.
Everything happening now is in accordance with that act.
All a man needs to do is put on a dress & hey presto he is a she.
I think they need to tear up the GRA 2004 and start again.
My solution is simple.
Instead of saying ‘transwomen are women’ you say ‘transwomen are transwomen’
Sorted!
Glad to see those wastrels from the SNP flounce off in a huff (and clearly they are). They all talk of ‘experience’, but I ask, ‘experience’ of what? sitting on your arse doing SFA to gain independence? PLaying along in the cosy Westminster club? Laughing along at all the ‘jibes’ from the other benches?? Dining in some considerable style in the taxpayer subsidised restaurant?? Living it up for 20+ years on more than 85k per year, plus expenses, and a free second home in London? Is it THAT kind of experience they mean??? Because from any rational standpoint, they have done F all else.
It needs stated again, and often, ‘for London’s gold, they are bought and sold’. Mind, to be fair, those green benches in old London town do look quite comfy.
Ruby – They don’t even have to bother with a dress.
If this law passes; Any fat, hairy, moustachioed bloke could accuse anyone of misgendering him/her/sturgeonite. And because trans folk are always unquestioningly truthful; The accused is looking at a long trial, vilification and the possibility of seven years in the pokey.
Add juryless trials to the mix and you have the perfect tool for controlling the public. Think 1930s Germany or Russia.
And we all know, Sturgeon loves to orchestrate a showtrial.
This is why any MSP voting for this guff should never be forgotten, forgiven or re-elected.
@ Effijy says:9 December, 2022 at 4:58 am
Are they racist
Course they are. So is everybody. So is you. Go hang your head in shame.
Not me though. I’m post-racist, being smart enough to realise that a label that is thrown at everybody, just to shut them up, is meaningless.
Got to say though, Effigy, for somebody who hates the Hail so much, you sure do spend a lot of time and effort telling us what’s in it.
I’m guessing you do that, through gritted teeth, for the good and benefit of the rest of us? You make that sacrifice to spare us all, right?
@ Hatuey says:8 December, 2022 at 11:21 pm
If he did that, support for independence would skyrocket
Well don’t tell us, Hatuey, tell him.
Don’t mention your track record for getting your previous predictions right, and we won’t either.
Hatuey says:
8 December, 2022 at 11:21 pm
George: “He has been 5 minutes in the job.”
Which by my estimation is about 4 minutes longer than necessary. How long would it take to grasp the colonial nature of the situation Scotland is in and announce you’re walking out in protest?
I think you’re right and wrong.
Flynn needs to be radically different in upping the tempo, but before walking out of Westminster (would the others actually follow or do an “ALBA” on him?) Flynn needs to undermine the notorious concessions and precedents set by Sturgeon with regard to the Claim of Right.
Flynn needs to orchestrate a constitutional stand-off where the central dispute is Constitutional with Westminster’s faux Parliamentary sovereignty going head to head with Scotland’s Claim of Right.
Once the stand-off has been inextricably linked to the Claim of Right, in other words the issue of Sovereignty, then Westminster gets presented with an ultimatum or two which requires them to respect the Claim of Right, the sovereignty of Scotland, or Scotland then withdraws it’s MP’s from Westminster and recalls a TRUE Scottish Parliament or more likely, a Constitutional Convention, given that Holyrood has been badly compromised by Sturgeon’s idiocy.
Flynn needs rediscover Scotland’s Red sovereignty and purge his position as SNP leader of all white Westminster “sovereignty”.
The ONLY thing of consequence MUST be the Claim of Right.
I don’t want a referendum myself; I think the system is too corrupt and broken to produce a meaningful result; from the franchise, the media propaganda, through to the colonial encroachment of the Scotland Act, outside dark money and dubious characters “posing” as Independentists, it all combines to make a mundane and perfunctory exercise in democracy more like running the gauntlet.
Other’s may turn a bling eye to these Unionist “cheats”, but when it compromises democracy to the extent it clearly does, the consequence MUST be that the compromised democracy does not deliver a reliable result.
To be blunt about it, I feel the only mandate which is well inside our reach is a 30 seat majority of pro Independence MP’s. We actually have that now.
I know people dispute this, and insist there is a 50%+1 vote share required to bring down the Union , but that isn’t true.
Scotland had 59 Westminster MP’s, and if they firmly plant their feet in the Red sovereignty of Scotland’s Claim of Right, the effectively become “Sovereign” Scottish MP’s; their will CANNOT be overruled, and to have a democratic mandate requires 30 seats of the 59.
“IF” we go skiing off piste, and introduce an arbitrary 50%+ rule, to my mind, we are doing to ourselves what Labour’s George Cunningham did to Scotland’s 1978 Referendum with his notorious 40% rule. And that to me, seems the height of stupidity.
A 30 seat mandate in my opinion is all that Scotland requires to act with all due rectitude and propriety under the rules of the prevailing system, to the extent a neutral disinterested third party would readily concede it’s legality.
“IF” there was a body of Scottish opinion dissatisfied with this “enough to be legal democracy”, then so be it. But the solution to that anxiety is not to reverse backwards and indulge the corrupt UK electoral system. The progressive solution is to “set up” Scotland’s Constitutional Stand-off with our 30 seat mandate, with the expectation that Westminster will NOT accommodate Scotland’s constitutional sovereignty having a veto over Westminster,
Thus when Scotland sets Constitutional ultimatums which Westminster refuses to recognise, then the Treaty of Union quickly becomes unworkable, and fails. Scotland can and should encourage the collapse of the Union, at some point declaring the Treaty breached and at an end.
At that point, Scotland could hold it’s own plebiscite, offering the Scottish electorate a choice of how they want to be governed; Independence/ Independence in the EU / Independence in the EU with a “Benelux” type trade arrangement with former UK nations / or a renegotiatiated Treaty of Union with England. ( Option 4 of course not being Scotland’s sole prerogative).
So in short, use a 30 seat Flynn battering ram to force the Claim of Right over Westminster, and when Westminster refuses, use this refusal as due cause to declare the Union Treaty breached, (which it properly is by the way), and hold a ratification plebiscite later, by ourselves, in a Scotland that falls under red sovereignty rules and jurisdiction.
Now, the Constitutional Stand Off engineered between the Claim of Right and Westminster Parliamentary Sovereignty could be a Constitutional dispute taken to the UN and International Court of Justice.
I know SALVO and Liberation.Scot are hedging our bets, and I approve 100%, but personally, Scotland should be bold enough to trust it’s own credentials as a Nation and demand the UN respects Scotland from the off, as a nation with rights under international law.
This of course, is just the tip of the ice berg, but this in my opinion, is what Flynn is in a position to deliver. He should simply circumvent Sturgeon, leaving her to rage in impotence, in the devolved assembly which she herself turned into an irrelevant parish council.
Be bold Mr Flynn, and start speaking with the Constitutionalists outside the SNP, not the Devolutionists within.
Cometh the hour, cometh the man?
Funny wee thing to ponder; if Sara Salyers and Stephen Flynn visited a fortune teller in a fairground and magically swapped places for the next seven days, what would happen next?
And do you think Scotland be independent by Hogmanay, or should we be more patient and wait til Burns Night?
@John Main
I think the penny might be dropping for some that the SNP are essentially our version of the IPP rather than Sinn Fein? There is of course an argument to be made for ensuring that the interests of Scottish voters are represented at Westminster given that we remain pro tem part of the UK, but the behaviour of a putatively pro Independence Party like the SNP in that place tells us a lot about the worldview of those leading it.
What the last few years have demonstrated is that far from being there to “settle up, not settle in” as the sound bite has it, the SNP doesn’t regard independence as either a priority or something it has to worry about in the short to medium term. They actually mean what some of the noises of have been saying for a while: there will be no concerted action on their part until there is a sustained and overwhelming majority in favour of independence.
Since the SNP lack the ability and numbers of Irish nationalist MPs in the late 19th century and early 20th century to hold the balance of power in Westminster, they are doomed to be ignored and treated with contempt by the braying britnats.
If we had a nationalist party worth its salt, it would of course be making life as hard as possible in Westminster by using disruptive tactics to bring the place to its knees in response to the democratic outrage of the repeated denial of the mandate given by the Scottish people for another referendum. For all the good they do, Scottish Westminster MPs might as well make it clear that they will follow Sinn Féin’s lead in the event that Westminster will not negotiate in good faith, and get behind plebiscitary elections.
I won’t be holding my breath though. I suspect the SNP will either have to undergo a palace revolution from within, or like the IPP 100 years ago replaced with something more fit for purpose.
I know people dispute this, and insist there is a 50%+1 vote share required to bring down the Union , but that isn’t true.
It is true. No amount of magical thinking and cunning plans for indy will result in independence without a clear popular majority in either a referendum or plebiscitary elections. It simply won’t happen otherwise and would not be recognised internationally.
Repeating the mantra that we can declare UDI on the basis of a majority of Westminster seats, or by calling a Convention of Estates, or getting 100,000 signatures on a petition, or via the courts using nobile officium or whatever other wheeze is being advanced this week, obviously gets some folk really excited and convinced that it will deliver independence in short order, but in reality there is very little chance that novel routes to independence will be successful at all, never mind faster than just doing the hard graft and convincing a majority to vote Yes in a referendum or – preferably now – a plebiscitary election.
Anyone who looks at Flynn and the current SNP cadre in Westminster and thinks they’re going to do anything radical, or take on Sturgeon or withdraw from Westminster is deluding themselves on the same scale as those who thought Liz Truss was competent, or BoJo was trustworthy.
Andy Ellis
Will you please stop talking sense.
The dreamers and the fantasists simply don’t like that. Novel and cunning ‘plans’ are far more attractive to them!
Over and over again the same individuals deride Sturgeon and the SNP, correctly in my humble opinion, yet would happily take Independence tomorrow with Sturgeon and the SNP in charge of EVERYTHING in the brave, new Scotland. ‘It will all be fine’ according to the SNP. Madness.
Wow. Andy, it sounds like you’ve gone full “cunning” to me. Welcome to reality.
Breeks, I agree with about 95% of what you say. We already have a constitutional crisis to use as a basis for walking out in protest, though. I don’t see the need to engineer another one and I don’t think you could engineer a better one — the denial of a section 30 is a denial of basic democracy.
The next step would be to hold some sort of constitutional convention such as that proposed by Salmond. A decision made there would carry a lot of weight. Call it a Convention of the Estates or whatever.
None of that will happen, of course. Nothing will happen. Flynn will be judged on his delivery and presentation skills.
John Main, my track record on predictions is 100% correct.
John Main says:
9 December, 2022 at 7:59 am
I’m getting a very high reading on my ICD when reading your post.
If everyone is racist how do you explain Rishi Sunak being PM and Prince Harry’s choice of bride?
I don’t think your excuse for being racist will wash not everyone is racist.
You might be nearer the mark if instead of saying everyone is racist you said 33.4% of people in Scotland are racist.
Getting off the scale readings on my ICD this morning!
Was it your friend Chas or your friend John Main who said that?
” Be bold Mr Flynn, and start speaking with the Constitutionalists outside the SNP, not the Devolutionists within.
Cometh the hour, cometh the man? ”
Ecce Homo ? Ecce LGB+-XxY:-&****/_>=?
Even by our exasperated standards , 3 days in the job is a * tad * too soon to make any judgement on He Who Will Be Ignored . Let’s give him another 3 .
If he’s not uttered a permutation of the magic – if * somewhat * ineffective Blackfordian Incantation ……Scotland . Will . Not . Be . in that time , he’ll have earned another 3 days grace
I suspect this is another piece of NSNP deckchair shuffling , a ” pick a card , any card ” sleight-of-hand distraction , designed to give the impression of a – don’t laugh – * radical * change of approach by * them * . We’ll see .
He can’t be any less effective than the sadly departed Colossus of Skittish Independence eg … Uriah Blackford .
Can he ?
Before getting to the one potential upside of the tranny bollocks its worth noting that of the 3 most powerful Scottish politicians only Trump has made the observation about what everything woke turns to
Similarly, whilst its hard to believe anything quite so daft could have been planned, its also worth noting that rotating that graph makes for a cracking totem pole..
Anyway, setting aside the appalling corruption, one potential upside of the tranny bollocks is that whilst SALVO and Liberation can declare themselves sovereign Scots at any time, any Scottish judge(s) denying them standing will necessarily incriminate themselves with hateful crimes against ballsy women and indigenous men in skirts – and thus run an increased risk of being persecuted for their self harming nonsense both at home and abroad (eg ECJ observer nations like Tranada)
I’m getting a very acute feeling of deja vu when reading your post. Perhaps your post is uniquely for John Main who it would seem you have to repeat the same thing at least ten times.
Careful you might be accused of being a spammer and renamed Cameron.
John Main, my track record on predictions is 100% correct.
Still confident about that Chinese invasion of Taiwan before Christmas prediction then?
How many days is it now…?
You didn’t answer before when asked for any evidence in support….or is it just a “cunning plan for invasion”? 🙂
He can be less effective, Robert.
A lot of people on here think there’s two poles with regards to the direction Flynn might take the SNP, with Nicola and the devolutionists at one side representing one pole, and the more radical Alba types forming the other pole. It isn’t true.
He could tone down the rhetoric and settle right in at Westminster, creating a much more cautious, non-confrontational, devolutionist position than even Sturgeon. The system ratchets in that direction.
Can anybody rule that out at this stage?
@ Breeks says:9 December, 2022 at 8:22 am
There’s certainly a lot to support in that post.
Not seeing how a referendum is more likely to be swayed by the malign actions of “bad actors” than a plebiscite, though.
It aught to be a very simple question: Indy, Yes or No?
As Breeks says, the details of the flavour of Indy can be (and must be) sorted out later, always assuming Yes carry the day. As long as it is clear to the referendum voters that the details will be sorted out, and will be put to the people, project fear would, IMO, struggle to gain traction.
As for Flynn, this time last week I had never heard of him. Could be I am the only Scot in this situation, could be a majority position.
Time will tell if he does anything to break cover with the mass of apolitical Scots.
Well, Andy, John Main made a reference to the past, i.e. past predictions. On past predictions my record as far as I know is 100% correct.
You seem to be judging me retrospectively on the basis of things that may or may not happen in the future which defies logic.
There’s mounting evidence of an imminent invasion or some sort of escalatory event taking place. We now have Canada’s pathetic navy ships trying to antagonise China, and there’s a lot more I could mention.
China/Taiwan is now centre stage, with the war in the east essentially over.
Macron’s recent acknowledgment of Putin’s legitimate security concerns plants a very awkward question right at the door of warmongers like yourself — what the fuck was the point in all this?
That on the basis that we all know this ends with a deal that has been on the table for about 8 years (Minsk II).
It’s one of the biggest foreign policy disasters of the last 100 years, for a bunch of western countries. A complete and utter cluster-fuck. Now they want to double down by provoking a similar sort of war with China.
Flynn will take up less space on the front bench than Blackford and that is all I can say about him.
I will be very very surprised if he does anything radical.
His job is to keep the cult happy. As long as they are ‘under the spell’ ‘hypnotised’ or whatever nothing radical will happen.
Polls tells SNP they are doing very well no need to rock the boat.
Boo!
link to tinyurl.com
Hatuey says:
9 December, 2022 at 9:19 am
None of that will happen, of course. Nothing will happen. Flynn will be judged on his delivery and presentation skills.
Sadly I fear you’re right.
I fear worse too, it’s beginning to look like the 3rd Class “Passengers” are doing what they do best, and making whiny resignations in an orchestrated attempt to damage the new leadership. These attention seekers made zero impact in their posts so I doubt their resignations will register on the Richter Scale.
I am beginning to understand why Joanna Cherry seems so reluctant to lead. You need something to work with.
I get a wee bit triggered, because this conduct is just snide and most unmanly, but in my unfortunate experience it’s an attitude that’s rife in Local Authorities where people are stitched up behind their backs by jobsworths, gossips and Grima Wormtogue types, of which there seem to be thousands.
I don’t mean the reverse either, that the “manly” thing is bullying behaviour and a square go in the car park, but just have a bit of “masculine intolerance” for bullshit, get things sorted out in upright fashion, and get things done in a way that clears the air.
I apologise if that sounds misogynistic, but it just feels like so many heads in the SNP need cracked together and an end put to their incessant drivel. I’ve no problem with a woman doing it, good luck to her. I think a Cherry CO with an RSM type to help out might have worked out fine (Regimental Sergeant Major), but unfortunately, and tragically, Cherry looks isolated and a fish out of water.
Whoever made the decision to have Cherry ostracised needs to answer for it. It has cost Scotland dear.
Does Flynn have it in him to make it happen? We shall see. Over to you Stephen Flynn….
Flynn set up the ultra woke AIM, he supports Scotland being in Nato, and he supports the set up of Freeports.
He’s a great big orchestrated kerfuffle, designed to make it look like the SNP is getting its mojo back, and prevent dissatisfied SNP members and voters from going elsewhere, while at the same time nothing, policy wise, really changes with the SNP projectory.
It’s what the British Establishment do, very, very well. A century of Labour antics should have taught us this.
That one or 2 within the SNP MP’s are throwing their toys out of the pram… well, you would expect that wouldn’t you.
Nikla needs to get GRR through parliament in order to secure her new job on the international stage.
This recent kerfuffle, sets the stage for her stepping down, with a fake leadership election thereafter – all enough drama, for the sheeple to gain hope that the SNP will start doing what they’ve been elected to do. So much easier (and comforting) to keep hoping and stay where you are, than do all the hard work of leaving and building a new party or standing as independent candidates, and then actually getting Indy done.
Breeks, didn’t you suggest during the week that this could all be a stage-managed stunt, intended to give the impression of change and diversity of opinion or something?
Someone did.
It reeks of that, if you ask me.
@Hatuey says:9 December, 2022 at 10:09 am
the war in the east essentially over
Soz, Hatuey, not clear if that is a prediction or a statement.
Best make it a prediction, methinks. That ways, you can continue to wriggle off the hook indefinitely by posting “I shall be vindicated, but not yet”.
A Scottish Labour party that declared for Independence would sweep the board. Why has no-one filled this gap. I suppose it would have to be a new party, separate and distinct from the rotten carcass hanging on to the tory lite party in WM. ALBA might be trying hard to fill that spot but doesn’t have the traction as yet. Perhaps because of the links to SNP and to AS himself, sad to say it seems to be a pretty marmite situation – even if the mud should not have stuck, you love him or hate him. A new Scottish Labour party could be the rallying call and get the comfy SNP erses off the green benches in a hurry and get she/her to focus on Indy rather than trans rights. We have to break this impasse, and as Midge says get some different and better ideas on the table to counter the pretty conservative and right leaning SNP half-baked plans for currency and the like. Something has to give, and please…no George Galloway or other roving carpetbaggers. Let’s get some fresh young talent in there. The kind with fire in their eyes and in their bellies. Stand up that man, or woman.
Who in the fuck is Flynn when he is aboot?
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Lenny Hartley says:
8 December, 2022 at 1:35 pm
Im emigrating to Mongolia
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Nae luck min. It has a Yurt shortage due to Russian Draft Dodgers.
So if indy is by Scottish govt election we all vote ALBA
BUT
What if it’s by General election , what shall we vote ?
I will never vote Labour again
I have never voted conservative and never will
If I vote ALBA my preferred party , I’m certain they won’t win a seat in Dundee West
That means it has to be SNP I vote for because Scottish independence is more important than any political party and more important than any politician
I look forward to the day when Scotland is independent and can boot out the BBC and put the kybosh on STV and SKY then set about any newspapers that have lied on behalf of Westminster , I can name a good few , actually more than a few
It will be fresh air to have a government that cannot be dictated to by England
There are other possibilities
There is no guarantee that these polling companies aren’t in some form of collusion with British Government preferences and that Sturgeon hasn’t had indicated to her, that a bump free career path is open to her, if she “manages” independence for them.
Is there anything shadier than politics?
We have almost no clue about how it actually functions at the highest levels.
Conviction politicians are rare…..and persistent ones…..even moreso.
Alex Salmond’s political conviction is likely far harder to buy off than the likes of Sturgeon.
How many wouldn’t submit to the choice of becoming a multi millionaire, with amazing access, attention and unending deference…….when they made to realise that trying to actually swing independence, against the British State is and ever more gargantuan undertaking which almost sent Salmond to prison for life?
The British State will now have safeguards in place and be far more active in independence prevention measures, after the last close shave.
We have practically zero chance of independence now.