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Wings Over Scotland

Never changing, never learning

Posted on June 02, 2020 by

We’re STILL officially on holiday, readers, and that means that for the last four months we’ve barely watched the news or looked at a newspaper, because who wants to be depressed by being lied to by a never-ending parade of scumbags when they’re on holiday? Not us, and we’ll tell you that for nothing.

So we’re grateful to alert readers who still point us to stuff like this.

EIGHT YEARS since Scottish Labour got into bed with the Tories to ensure the Tories kept ruling Scotland, and they still haven’t grasped why they don’t get the “protect us from the Tories” vote any more. Honestly, folks, if it wasn’t so tragic it’d be hilarious.

Because the inconvenient reality is that Scotland DOES still remember the thing that a Scottish Labour activist urged it to keep in mind just a few weeks after the Brexit vote:

Indeed it would. It would also still be in the European Union, and it wouldn’t be entering a second decade of Tory rule. (It’s now more than 10 years since David Cameron walked into 10 Downing Street and basically set everything in the country on fire.) It sure is a mystery why people aren’t more grateful to Scottish Labour, eh?

And a third decade of Tory rule is highly likely too, because the current government has almost five full years to run, and Labour would need the biggest swing in its history to prevent it from securing another five years after that (breaking the all-time record for continuous Tory governments, the 18 years from 1979-1997).

We were helpfully reminded of that fact by a truly demented interview in the weekend’s Herald On Sunday with Labour’s sole surviving Scottish MP (again), Ian Murray.

It’s now more than eight years since this website comprehensively shattered the absolute lie in the last of those paragraphs. Labour does NOT need, and has NEVER needed, Scottish seats to win a UK election. Tony Blair is the only Labour leader to have won a UK general election in the last 46 years, and every single one of his administrations would have had a comfortable majority if Scotland was independent and sent no MPs at all to Westminster.

Actual majority: 179
Majority without Scotland: 139

Actual majority: 167
Majority without Scotland: 127

Actual majority: 66
Majority without Scotland: 43

Indeed, in 1997 and 2001 Labour would have had a large UK majority (of 67 and 55 seats respectively) even if Scotland was still part of the UK and every single seat in it had been won by the Tories.

So it’s quite bold of Murray to still be trying to punt that ridiculous and easily-disproven falsehood after all these years. The fact is that if Labour wins England it wins the UK, and Scotland has never made any meaningful difference to a UK election outcome – hardly surprising when England provides 82% of MPs and Scotland just 9%.

But it’s far from the most jaw-dropping line in the interview.

“Our seats”. Wow. That’s the same overweening, oblivious entitlement that we saw oozing from John Ruddy’s tweet at the top of this piece. Three absolute thrashings in a row, in which Scottish Labour have returned a total of NINE Scottish MPs compared to 138 in the previous three elections, has done nothing to dent it.

It still thinks Scotland is its property – even though the most recent Westminster poll put it THIRTY-SIX points behind the SNP and 10 behind the Tories – and it still thinks Scotland has a duty to vote Labour to get the Tories out for England’s benefit, rather than to vote for what Scotland actually wants for itself.

Murray went on to completely rubbish the idea that Scottish Parliament elections counted for anything at all. Were the SNP to secure a majority in 2021 on a platform of a second independence referendum, Murray insisted that it would be meaningless and irrelevant until the UK election three years later.

“You can’t say one half of the equation has a mandate and not the other”? Um, that’s exactly what you ARE doing, Ian. You’re saying Starmer’s victory would be a mandate but the SNP’s wouldn’t, you great twit.

But what that actually means is that Scottish elections are meaningless and irrelevant forever. Because Murray’s argument is “If Scotland votes for a second referendum in 2021, and then Labour wins at Westminster three years later, there’ll be no referendum. But if the Tories win, there’ll also be no referendum. And the SNP can’t get a majority at Westminster, so there’s nothing the people of Scotland can ever vote for peacefully and democratically that will get them a referendum”.

We already knew that, of course. And we knew what it meant, from Murray himself:

We’ll gloss quickly over Murray’s unambiguous and alarming implication that only an armed revolution therefore offers Scotland a route to its independence, and instead muse on whether “vote for us and we guarantee that you’ll never get democracy as long as you live, because you can’t be trusted to vote Labour like you’re supposed to” is really the surefire election-winning slogan Ian Murray appears to imagine it to be.

Because it seems to us that there’s a rather obvious logical flaw in it.

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    249 to “Never changing, never learning”

    1. Muscleguy says:

      Asked for ideas on how Labour could win back Scotland. It was too tempting to resist of course. They are clueless, utterly and completely clueless. They took all those votes so much for granted that they forgot to learn how to win them and now they find they have no idea of what Scots feel about them or would need from them to even consider voting for them again.

      Top of the list would be: separate yourselves from UK Labour because they cannot offer what Scots want AND offer what Middle England and the former Northern Wall want. That equation cannot be solved. Only party separation can even begin to save SLAB.

    2. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Ah the Scottish Labour crowd, what a complete mess.

      I will never forgive the damage that crew did to Scotland, I am sure we will never be troubled by them again.

      Scottish folk are a bit slow on the political side but they can smell the treachery from Labour, they must never be allowed to return.

    3. Bob Mack says:

      Ultimately this is why I stopped voting for Labour. I shall never make that mistake again in my lifetime.

      The END are not perfect by any means,and have lost their way in listening to their own supporters as Labour did.

      However on balance they have brought in several measures to enhance the lives of many folk.

      I will vote for them until I have a wider choice of options.

    4. Bob Mack says:

      End=read SNP

    5. Julia Gibb says:

      That is why the Tories give him their vote. He is a diehard Unionist. The game of “turns each at the trough” is far more important to him.

      In addition to Tory support he has the Herald supporting and promoting him. What more evidence is needed that he is a servant of London.

    6. robbo says:

      When that runt wore the full regailia of the UK, it turned ma stomach. He’s no better than the scum that sold our country and ran away down south to London b4 that night was out in 1707.

    7. Darwin would keep this halfwit as a Pet!

    8. Thomas Potter says:

      Welcome back Rev. To say you’ve been missed is a bit of an understatement.
      Great piece on Union Jaiket Murray, but I would like your comment on Craig Murrays article where he suspects that Dominic Cummings was actually in the Barnard Castle area during his Durham scandal for the purpose of signing up to GlaxoSmithKline on a load of very lucrative,though shady,Coronovirus antibody contracts,( nice birthday prezzie for the missus?)
      Also, is it really possible that Boris Johnsons Protection squad and various MI5/MI6 types wouldn’t be aware that his chief Special Adviser was off grid? And where and when at any point?

    9. X_Sticks says:

      In 2014 Labour revealed themselves to be existing in the land of Oz. Murray is Oscar Diggs, hiding behind his curtain and trying to fool everyone into believing in *his* vision of Scotland which will eternally be under the westminster yolk.

      Labour are every bit as much part of the british establishment as the tories. They are only marginally less toxic than the tories. They have nothing of worth to offer Scotland.

      They are prepared to sell their souls for English gold. The Labour party in Scotland is a sham, just like the so-called “union”. Their problem is that we have seen behind the curtain and we know the whole british political edifice is just smoke and mirrors designed to keep the plebs thinking they can make a difference by voting for the red master instead of the blue master.

    10. Marie Clark says:

      ” Our votes”? sorry Ian Murray, what ever makes you think that they’re “Our votes”, that is belonging to Labour in Scotland. What a flaming cheek. They do not belong to SLAB, they’re “OUR VOTES”.”OUR” being we the people of Scotland to do with as WE wish. You don’t have a snawbaws chance in hell of reclaiming 16 seats in Scotland.

      As for referendums for independence, can I just quote you something Mr Murray. “Every sovereign state has the right to withdraw from a treaty, if that treaty is not, anymore,
      compatible with it’s interest”. Who said that Mr Murray. None other than Geoffrey Cox Attorney General 12th March 2019. TORY MP.

      What planet does this eejit inhabit.

    11. Polly says:

      They disgust me now. And I’m really irritated with myself that for a number of years I was stupid enough to believe I voted Labour to protect us from the Conservatives after Thatcher. Like many people I picked up the mantra from parents and, until Blair and Iraq, they did seem the only bulwark against increasingly right wing policies. Had I looked into the figures more deeply, or had there been a WOS site before then, I might not now shudder at the thought I once would have been stupid enough to believe rubbish like Murray or Ruddy spouts.

      Their behaviour during the two referendums only consolidated the dislike I had for them during Iraq into absolute disgust. And hearing them still saying things like that since then turns my stomach now. I’d sooner vote Tory than Labour, and that will never happen.

    12. stuart mctavish says:

      Ian Murray sharing his enthusiasm for putting a former DPP into number 10 amidst the most appalling abuse by what appears to be the Scottish underlings of that office demonstrates particularly poor timing/judgement so, using the footshooting marksmanship of previous incumbents as his reference, my guess is that he is simply angling for eventual consideration to undertake either of the roles currently enjoyed by Richard Leonard and Jackie Baillie.

    13. katherine hamilton says:

      “They’ve got our seats”
      Wow, just wow. But he’s right, of course. And we ain’t “giving them back”. Ever.
      Federalism schmederalism my arse.

    14. Willie says:

      Peddle a lie, peddle a lie, peddle a lie. It is the Labour mantra, and it’s the same today as it was yesterday, and the day before.

      Scotland’s vote does not count. Conservative votes delivered in England. But in Scotland Labour would try to tell you differently. That’s why now they only have a rump of the vote.

      Ah we remember well the “ Feeble Fifty “ and then we remember the sacred “ Vow “ Labour truly are the party of the damned. Unelectable, they have subjected Scotland to Tory rule. But we all know the real answer and that is “ INDEPENDENCE”

      And on that the SNP must not let us down.

      Otherwise right glad Wings are enjoying their holidays. No close contact on the Brighton beach, or swamping natural beauty spots mind.

    15. Joppajings says:

      Great piece. The hard core gang members of UK Labour in Scotland suffer from the familiar condition of nostalgia that we see regularly promoted by the British Nationalists. During Brexit and the previous WM election the media belched it out. For labour in Scotland they long for those past times of a compliant and tame electorate managed through powerful unions based in heavy and manufacturing industries. Those elected at all levels of government were free to brandish their own versions of “socialism” and “labour values” while keeping the electorate in their place.
      Today they are not just angry at the SNP for taking their gravy train away but are furious that the communities and voters that they had enslaved for decades have woken up and rejected them.
      Murray’s come as no surprise as he does not regard himself as Scottish at all. He is British. Just like a Conservative or Liberal Democrat in Scotland, Labour Ian wears a union badge which says; “I’m not Scottish & I work to maintain the British colonial exploitation of Scotland. His ambition is to follow in the footsteps of that tradition of “labour men” now covered in Ermine… Darling, Reid, Robertson, McConnell and Foulkes.

    16. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Starmer as Blair Lite?

      This Sir Kier Starmer:

      “when the SNP proposed an investigation into Blair’s apparent lying in the run up to the war – bolstered by findings from the Chilcot report – Sir Keir voted against it.”

      He also voted for Trident in 2016, and worked tirelessly to secure Labour’s support for the Investigatory Power Bill, which expanded state surveillance and authorised the bulk collection of digital communications.

      As DPP, Sir Keir tempered his love of liberty by fast-tracking the extradition of Julian Assange (a process now making its way through the courts). He flouted legal precedents by advising Swedish lawyers not to question Assange in Britain: a decision that prolonged the latter’s legal purgatory, denied closure to his accusers in Sweden, and sealed his fate before a US show trial.”

      That’s before you look at his connections to Israeli lobbyists a personal donation of £50,000 from Sir Trevor Chin who has made donations to many leading Labour figures in the past including Tony Blair and Tom Watson!

      And this from Starmer himself “I said it loud and clear — and meant it — that I support Zionism without qualification.”

      BritNat Labour still bitter they lost their Fiefdom (where their votes were weighed rather than counted) and they still don’t understand Scotlands Electorate!

    17. Derek Cameron says:

      Is it not a crime against the people of Scotland that the MSM suppress the killer facts so clearly set out by the Rev ?

    18. Vivian O'Blivion says:

      YouGov, Westminster voting intentions, field work 29th to 30th May, (weighted) Scottish sub-sample: SNP 54%, Con 22%, Lab 13%, LibDems 2%, Greens 5%. Run through a seat calculator this gives the SNP 58 out of 59 constituencies. Presumably (on a safest seat in 2017 basis) the one holdout is wee Ian Murray. I actually admire the shameless wee careerist, he has the survival instincts of a cornered sewer rat.
      The LibDems on 2% is hilarious (and it’s not an outlier, the last YouGov, Scottish sub-sample had them on 3%). All that dark money and the combined tactical geniuses of Swinson and Rennie has reduced them to an irrelevance. It seems a sizeable portion of their vote has defected to the SNP. Hardly surprising, as if Swinson knew her history the old Liberals were the party of home rule and Federation.
      Still, looks like a seat in the HoL is all but guaranteed for Swinson. In the Deep State failing upwards is the norm (see Deputy Dug).

    19. galamcennalath says:

      During the last general election I spoke to a few Labour activists doing their thing. ‘A few’ is right because there aren’t many left. Generally amiable folk with whom I had a lot in common. Here’s the thing though, for all the overlap in political views, legacy Labour members seem still totally wed to the Union. (Polls show their voters aren’t so sure).

      We could chat about most issues and find commonality, but touch on their Union versus Scottish Independence and their mood changed. They are fanatically adamant that continuation of the UK and a Labour government sometime in the future, is the only imaginable future.

      Ian Murray speaks for these people. He is one of them. They embrace the cult of British Nationalism with every fibre of their existence. All else, all the possible social advances, are put aside when their Union is threatennoed. Everything Labour should stand for is a weak second to UKOK.

      Of course this brand of Labourite sided with the Tories to preserve their Union. They will do it again. They are doing it again when they object to Scotland taking its own route through the coronavirus pandemic and not adhering to the EnglishBritish approach.

      What makes this legacy British Nationalism so pathetic is that it’s advocates don’t seem to realise that most people of these isles have now embraced English Nationalism and the vision is of a Greater England. There never really was much of a Union, and it’s a dead duck now. Or should that be a dead horse, the kind Murray et al keep flogging?

    20. Republicofscotland says:

      The National carries the same story today, Ian union jack suit Murray doesn’t actually care for Scots or Scotland, he only care about Labour getting into power in London and forever halting Scottish independence.

      That’s why he still spinning his tired old lies, the Scottish Labour branch office has done untold damage to Scotland and it’s people. They see Scotland as their right, and to do with it as they please, the Tories, well all know what to expect from that lot, but Labour, a party built off the backs of the masses founded to help them, now just a self serving Tory enabling bunch, who forever wants to keep Scotland down and tied up in this unholy union, through lies and deceit.

      Can they ever be trusted to look out for the best interests of Scots, definitely not while we’re still in this forced one-sided union.

    21. Proud Cybernat says:

      Not forgetting Dugdale telling Scots to effectively vote Tory:

    22. Paul Snowdon says:

      This latest Labour leadership offer of radical federalism is also connected to Ian Murray’s democratic denial.
      In a Scottish context it requires the removal of power from Holyrood,where the SNP remain in power,and moving it to Council level, where Labour can easily form Unionist Alliances and regain control.
      Its always about entitled power.

    23. Milady says:

      Spot. On. A former SNP MSP once told me that supplanting Labour was stage one, stage 2 is then a straight up Con v SNP fight for Indy over Unionism. Cons under Boris are now fast losing their grip on more moderate Tories, especially in Scotland; they hate him and and they hate his Brexit. (I have a cousin who is a perfect example of this.)

      The most galling thing right now is the SNP self sabotage. Losing support on things like GRA reform, some of the other justice idiocy, and their appalling timidity on animal rights is weakening support rather than consolidating it. Does my head in!

    24. The Isolator says:

      It’s almost as if broken England is preparing the groundwork to install Kier Starmer as next PM,once the toxicity levels of Toryism becomes that close to the tipping point.

    25. Col.Blimp IV says:

      When I was a teenager, Scottish television current affair programs and newspapers were invariably filled with well known Labour Party figures telling us how disasterous a Tory government would be for Scotland, whenever they took a break from dissing the SNP.

      The Labour government’s mis-management of the economy and opinion poll results in England made it obvious that Thatcher was going to win – even if every single voter in Scotland voted Labour.

      It seemed a no-brainer to me – Stop them at the border!

      It beggars belief that there are still some in the Labour Party who would prefer a thousand years of Tory Rule to a self governing Scotland.

      They must be the only ones who are still there…

      Never Changing – Never Learning

    26. Peter A Bell says:

      Without a process by which Scotland can get out of the Union at will it can no longer be maintained that Scotland remains in the Union by consent. Consent that cannot be withdrawn as readily as it is given isn’t consent at all.

    27. shug says:

      He is a typical unionist
      Ask him what he thinks about Churchill offering Ulster to Southern Ireland in return for support.
      The more unionists here that the more their precious union is seen as a sham

    28. Athanasius says:

      So, “Scottish” Labour is and always has been made up of people who have no loyalty to Scotland and who enter politics as a path to London and nothing more and who consequently have not the slightest understanding of the country they purport to represent. Glad we got that cleared up because I would have been confused otherwise.

    29. shug says:

      sorry “hear that,”

    30. Dorothy Devine says:

      Last man standing with a big mooth and a pea brain.


    31. dakk says:

      Ian Murray, british nationalist apparatchik parasite.

    32. winifred mccartney says:

      Ian Murray tells more lies and distortions than even JackieB – he is incapable of saying anything good about Scotland. To dare to talk about ‘our’ seats just show his contempt for democracy.He and his ilk (Mgt Curran) would rather have the tories than snp as witnessed at her delight on election day when tory took an snp seat. She just misses her London office and expenses and he is just plain stupid. Labour are finished in Scotland – get used to it.

      Like me many will never forgive their lies and deceit during indyref especially the ones on phone to pensioners like my dad. I will never forget.

    33. Ottomanboi says:

      The last few months have exposed the naked truth, that we live in a world fabricated of lies and deceit, usually dispensed via digital/virtual technology. Your call/concern/complaint/security/safety etc is important to us says the dehumanizing bot.
      Labour cares for Scotland like a handler ‘cares’ for a chained up bear. All a squalid, dominance/deception act, pure bot babble.

    34. mark whittet says:

      Only by working with Scots Indy-List Referendum party can SNP achieve Scottish Independence (even if SNP win 70 MSPs!

      Here’s how

      Read. Learn. Support. Join. Retweet

    35. Morgatron says:

      Murray is like all other red Tories, they are a disgusting bunch of chancers.They want to keep us shackled to a union for nothing more than self importance, personal greed and power. He’s a butcher apron wearing fat wank pot.

    36. Gary45% says:

      Still clueless, delusional and bereft of any ideas.
      That sums up Scottish Labour.
      Unfortunately we all know some who still believe Slabs reasons for failing in Scotland.

    37. Ron Maclean says:

      @mark whittet 11:17am

      ‘Mark R. Whittet, Leader, Scotland’s Independence Referendum Party, has written to his fellow party lader (sic) at the SNP – Nicola Sturgeon – proposing that both parties work together to form a progressive alliance.’

      What did she say?

    38. Willie says:

      Just applied to judicialcomms [at] scotcourts [dot] gov [dot] uk to request “ virtual access “ to the High Court procedural hearing into the petition and complaint against Craig Murray to be held on 10th June 2020.

      Does anyone know how long before the courts get back to anyone requesting virtual access. For me personally, like many others, it is important, vitally important that all forms of judicial process are open and transparent. There must be no place for Star Chambers making behind closed door decisions in a functioning, or so called, functioning democracy.

      In relation to my request, and despite my having asked for an acknowledgement of receipt, so that I can know that my request has been safely received and will be receiving attention, I have not as yet received any acknowledgement or response.

      If by the close of play today, I have not received an acknowledgement, I shall email again and I wonder how many others have fared in making a similar request.

    39. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Peter A Bell @ 10:29

      On this site there has been much talk of Sovereignty – time honoured and universal principles, legal challenges, ancient documents, treaties and so on – a load of bollocks!

      Or rather, the absence of bollocks.

      Sovereignty is something you must assert and you can do that any time you please and it is yours for as long as you defend it.

      Our ancestors felt the need to do so in 1320 – we did not inherit that sovereignty – we reneged on it.

      A paragraph in an election manifesto is all that is required to re-assert it – then the Scottish government can negotiate independence whenever it sees fit.

      It is the question that should have been asked at the Indy ref and is the question that should be asked at any subsequent referendum – If the SNP does not have the balls to assert the people of Scotland’s sovereignty at the next election.

    40. Millennium says:

      Some english prick standing up in his english Parliament telling fellow english pricks how they are going to slap down China regarding Hong Kong.

      This is the same China who has massive infrastructure projects in England.

      If it came to an actual war between China and england then there would only be one winner.

      The english army are so under manned that the Chinese army could probably destroy the lot of them in a day.

      China will do as it pleases with Hong Kong,,,and there isn’t a damn fuckin thing the pricks from england can do about it.

      Rule Bri,,,fuckin,,tannia my fuckin arse.

      Would anybody care if China wiped england off the face of the earth???

      I think not!!!

    41. liz says:

      I wonder if the likes of John Ruddy really believe that or if they’re trying to fool gullible folk into believing it.

    42. Millennium says:

      Another Indy Party???

      Here was me thinking this was going to be a joined up excerice,,, where all those people involved in forming a List Party were all going to meet up in the one building and join forces.

      C’mon guys,,,one List Party

      Keep it simple

      With one clear aim,,,

      Scottish Independence!!!

    43. Beaker says:

      If you want to win votes, then you need to go out and get them. Apart from the leaflet brigade at election time, there’s not a sign of any political activists where I live. Not suggesting they are out every week, but it’s best to keep a presence.

    44. Col.Blimp IV says:


      “…all those people involved in forming a List Party were all going to meet up in the one building and join forces.”

      One can dream…

    45. MaggieC says:

      Ian Murray should just put on his “ Union Flag suit “ and cross over to the Tory benches in westminster because he’s a unionist through and through as I’ve never once heard him utter anything good about Scotland . It’s always Scotland bad from him .

      Also this is an interesting twitter post from Ayesha Hazarika on “ how labour can revitalise itself north of the border “ ,
      That’s her words not mine , is it too much for her to even mention Scotland ?

      You can get a good laugh at some of the replies .

    46. Millennium says:

      C Blimp 12.22

      The Corries,,Strangest Dream,,,

      Never heard that before,,,

      What a lovely wee song.

    47. Willie says:

      Could not agree more with your comments about England vs China.

      China is an infinitely more powerful, more successful nation than the UK. Were the U.K. to challenge China it would be like a contest between an athlete and a cripple. But the blowhards in the English benches cheer and jeer like the baying ninnies that they are, in denial of the busted flush that their country has become.

      China has become an economic super power whilst the UK has crumbled. And as we know only too well, empty barrels make most noise……..which reminds me of an old song about rolling out a barrel.

    48. Millennium says:

      Over to Nicola Sturgeon for her Daily Beefing,,,

    49. Alec Lomax says:

      Ian Murray: still living in 2016.

    50. Millennium says:


      China could send over a battalion of Boy Scouts from one of their cities to wipe out the english army.

    51. Colin Alexander says:

      Alex Salmond deserves great credit for helping to turn independence into the defining issue of Scottish politics. However,the indy movement is going nowhere until it accepts HIS decision to replace a mandate for independence via election, with a policy of UK-approved-indyref, has been one of the biggest tactical blunders since Nazi Germany’s invasion of the Soviet Union.

      Some indy supporters now talk about an advisory Indyref as a solution to no S30 transfer of constitutional power to the colonial Holyrood parliament. Sturgeon and the SNP reject an advisory referendum, the main excuse is that it must be “legal”.

      However, Sturgeon also knows, if held, any SNP MPs motion for UK Parliament to respect an advisory referendum result of “YES to independence” will be repelled by UK Parliament MPs – and UK Parliament MPs will point to there being a precedent for this being a legitimate action: The SNP.

      It was the SNP (with others) that set a precedent for British Imperial Parliament MPs blocking the decision of an advisory referendum: EU Ref 2016. EU-Ref was de-facto England’s national independence referendum. It was about bringing sovereignty back to England (England as the UK). England voted Leave.

      The SNP did not respect that result. Instead, the SNP via their Imperial Parliament MPs spent the next 3 1/2 years trying to either prevent Brexit, or trying to force through a “soft-Brexit” for England / UK.

      Sturgeon knows any advisory indyref would get the same treatment the SNP gave England’s vote to leave in England’s advisory EU-Ref. UK Parliament will then say: we’re only doing the same as the SNP: treating an advisory referendum as not binding.

      Sturgeon’s SNP has reinforced the English convention of “sovereignty of parliament”. By doing so, the SNP have seriously undermined the principle of Scottish self-determination and “sovereignty of the people of Scotland”.

      Sturgeon’s SNP went down the Imperial Parliament route. Joanna Cherry may be a legal genius but, an SNP MP going to court to argue “sovereignty of UK Parliament” ? I never thought I would see the day.

      Arguably, the SNP under Sturgeon, has done more damage to the political position that the “the people of Scotland are sovereign”, than Ian Murray or the British Imperial Labour Party could ever hope to achieve.

      The SNP under Salmond and Sturgeon has severely undermined Scotland’s sovereign right to self-determination by their embracing of the “sovereignty of UK Parliament”.

    52. MaggieC says:

      Millennium , It’s now on to stupid time with questions from so called “ journalists “ at the Nicola’s briefing .

    53. Ottomanboi says:

      US leading the way in rioting and looting..
      So that’s what those masks are for!

    54. MaggieC says:

      Re my last post * at Nicola’s briefing *

    55. The trouble is we have never had a Labour Party only tories hiding in it I mean a people’s party elect a Sir to lead them and it is full of Lords and Dames who showed their true colours by joining the establishment that they were formed to change people in Scotland would never have had the best standards in the U.K. If it was not for the SNP to numerous to mention Labour would never have delivered even 1 of those and that’s the truth as i have said before I was a shop steward in the Clyde shipyards and never voted labour in my life I ran them down for betraying the working class every time they got in I was laughed at and ridiculed at the time well who’s laughing now ???

    56. Jim McIntosh says:

      Willie says:
      2 June, 2020 at 11:44

      Re virtual access. I applied at a weekend and got an automatic out of office response immediately. Received an email on the following Wednesday including the following;

      “ Judicial Communications will email an expected starting time; dial-in number; and access code in advance of the case calling. This will most likely be sent on 9 June 2020.”

    57. A2 says:

      Forgive him, He’s lonely.

    58. CmonIndy says:

      This is the kind of stuff I come to Wings for.

    59. Millennium says:


      That is what the Brexit vote is all about,,,Empire II

      Boris had big plans for england.

      He even seriously thought of getting the Royal Yacht Britannia seaworthy and sail round the world in it,, flanked by the Aircraft Carrier QE2,,,, projecting “english power”

      Then this stupid virus thingy came along and fucked everything up.

      He is now a broken man with no plan.

    60. Famous15 says:

      Nicola’s briefing is a media disgraceful SNP baad. Desperate attempts to exculpate care home owners and now back to November we should have known Etc etc

      Independence is essential for our sanity.

      There is no sanity clause?

    61. Millennium says:

      Maggie C 12.54

      It’s surely Nicola’s Daily Beefing.

      For goodness sake gave a heart,,,I know we are hard on wee Nicky sometimes,,but let her keep her Daily pleasure.

      Let her enjoy her “Daily Beefing”,,,that we are told happens at 12.30 every lunchtime.

      Winky thing,,,

    62. Famous15 says:

      Millenium you are just a poor fool.More to be pitied than laughed at.

    63. robbo says:

      Can I remind people yabbering about English army blah blah.There is no such thing.It’s UK armed forces,made up of the now 3 nations of Scotland, England,Wales and the partitioned province of Ireland and also Commonwealth countries.

      There is no such thing as English Army,never has been since 1707

    64. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Colin Alexander

      Sovereignty isn’t something that can be bought or sold by politicians – It is something that can be claimed at any time.

      All that is required is the will to invoke our right to exercise it.

    65. Thomas Dunlop says:

      Time to ignore and bypass guys like Murray. They are immovable objects that can be easily steered around.

      I would only wish that Scot parliamentarians can be convened in a national convention (along with civic Scotland), to get ahead with the business of building a new Scottish state. We are not going to get any favours from Westminster or the tribunes of British Nationalism. No amount of ballot box hammering going to change their mind that Scotland is Britain, or deserves better.

      I am sick fed up of being called a foreigner, when it comes to the affairs of my home country.

    66. Liz g says:

      Just an FYI for everyone who may be interested!

      There’s a social media event called “Black Out Tuesday”
      It’s basically posting a Blank Black Coloured Square on to Facebook/Instagram ect today…

      This is to show support for Black Lives Matter, but don’t add the #black lives matter or it won’t work properly ( so I’m told ) just a Blank Black Picture!

      …..anyhoo it’s seems that it is in keeping with the FMs advice to find other ways of showing support and avoid large gatherings so I thought I’d draw attention to it here 🙂

    67. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Robbo says: at 1:36 pm

      “Can I remind people yabbering about English army blah blah…”

      No let me see:

      Scots Guards – check

      Irish Guards – check

      Welsh Guards – check

      English Guards – English Guards…English Guards…where are you English Guards?

      Oh no … I seem to have misplaced The English Guards!

      RSM Robbo – Can you remind me where I left them?

    68. robbo says:

      Col.Blimp IV says:
      2 June, 2020 at 2:37 pm
      Robbo says: at 1:36 pm

      Wit are you on aboot?

    69. Colin Alexander says:

      “Sovereignty isn’t something that can be bought or sold by politicians”.

      And yet that is exactly what, in effect, the Scottish Parliamentarians did in 1707, with the persuasion of bribes, economic sanctions and threat of invasion.

      It’s what Salmond traded for an indyref.

      And it’s what Sturgeon’s SNP gave away for nothing by failing to defend Scotland’s vote to Remain as a sovereign democratic decision.

    70. callmedave says:

      Catching up been busy with ironing and steam cleaning kitchen floor and tiles. I was volunteered by her indoors, it was always thus. Now duly knackered and I see Ian Murray ‘Labour in Scotland’is in the news again.

      The lone stranger, a little blemish in what otherwise would be a Labour free zone of Scottish MPs. The odd man out, hanging on in there, thanks to a cohort of normally Tory voters lending him their vote, and many will do so again next time round.

      Co-incidentally Big Gordon was on BBC news a wee while ago now giving advice to the Nation about post Virus economic decisions.

      Todays figs jings!… and heavens, the BBC have them posted for all the four Nations but can’t count them up to establish the UK values yet. Waiting for WM update to stamp them official.


      Scotland …….today…..12……….Total……2375….BBC
      N. Ireland……today…..02……….Total…….526….BBC
      UK……………no figs…….Total… figs…

      The SUN:
      Couples in England warned not to bonk!

    71. Republicofscotland says:

      Colin Alexander@2.41pm.

      The union was surely illegal to begin with, and the only reason it still remains in place after 313 years, is that co- opted Scots, and more recently lies from the English owned media have propped it up.

      This is how the unholy spawn of a union was forced upon us, everyone should read this link of how Scotland was sold out and forced into this disgraceful union.

      “By late 1706, troops had already been ordered into places like Glasgow and Edinburgh, in an attempt to disperse anti-union crowds and to curb increasingly violent mass public disorder. An English reinforcement army was stationed on the border.”

      “As soon as power passed to the first Parliament of Great Britain, its representatives imposed martial law throughout Scotland and put down the protests by sending in the military.”

    72. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Colin Alexander

      Yes but no matter how often our politicians trade, sell, disregard or it throw away … It is still ours to use anytime we choose.

      If the SNP does not pick it up soon … They suffer the same fate as the LP/LPiS/SLP or whatever they call themselves these days.

    73. callmedave says:

      Forgot to say James Kelly made his target a wee while ago and is now asking folk to suggest poll questions. 🙂

      £6004 last I looked.

    74. Dorothy Devine says:

      Col Blimp , thanks for the reminder ! Pete Seeger was the one for me!


    75. Doug says:

      Blue tories, red tories, yellow tories… all hate Scotland. England will vote tory; Scotland knows better.

    76. Col.Blimp IV says:


      The provenance of the foreign regiments that serve in the English army … you know The Royal Gurkha Rifles and suchlike.

    77. Republicofscotland says:

      “Can I remind people yabbering about English army blah blah.There is no such thing.It’s UK armed forces,made up of the now 3 nations of Scotland, England,Wales and the partitioned province of Ireland”


      For Scots and probably the other Home nations it might as well be called the man on the moon’s army for no Home nation other than England decides where and when to deploy it.

      Would a Scottish independent army have sent troops to Iraq or Libya or Afghanistan, or forced the Chagossian folk from their homelands with violence and intimidation at the behest of the USA? No I don’t think so.

      It’s England’s army, navy and air force in all but name, and we all know it. Scots don’t want nukes 30 miles from their largest city, no they don’t want them at all, and have stated that very plainly. Countless foreign governments at Westminster have ignored Scots on this matter for decades and did as they pleased.

    78. Al-Stuart says:

      Excellent article Stu.,

      Something just happened 10 minutes ago that makes a FULL GENERAL ELECTION more likely before the length of the current Westminster parliament has expired.

      Jacob Rees-Morgan is about to kill off a load of old Tories with Covid-19.

      Many MPs are squeaking like cowards at the “virtual” hybrid parliament and attending via Skype/Zoom being abolished. MPs tell all of us to get our lazy arses back to work and tough shitt if we plebs catch the Wuhan Bat Plague. It is worth watching these Westminster MP creeps scuttle like rats off of a sinking ship when Rees-Mogg tells them they MUST all return to London parliament in person.

      Mogg is NOW forcing lots of old fat Etonian Conservative male MPs to attend in person at the dirty, uncleanble Covid-ridden Palace of Westminster building.

      The demographic of there being a disproportionately high number of old, male Tories is fascinating to study.

      I do not wish death on Tories. Even the Minister of Manslaughter, Ian Duncan-Smith is welcome to a long life.

      However, today, 2nd June 2020, the new Mogg-Law extinguishing the VIRTUAL attendance at parliament and forcing those sick, shielding, vulnerable MPs to crowd onto airplanes/taxis/underground railways etc., will make it INEVITABLE that we will start seeing COVID-BY-ELECTIONS.

      I just watched Mogg pall up with Wokist SNP MP Ian Blackford and welcomed him as a “Secret Unionist” to which the fat banker replied with a broad, agreeable grin. From their interaction, here is pertinent example… Ian Blackford is morbidly obese (add +4% Covid deathometer), he is male (twice as likely to die from Covid-19 as women), Blackford is in his sixtieth year (add 3.6% on the Covid Deathometer), diabetic (+4.1% on the Covid deathometer).

      Add the fact that Ian Blackford will be regularly flying down to London, Monday each week and then flying back to Skye on a Covid-ridden aircraft most Fridays, from his very remote constituency and cannot “safe distance” on a plane, methinks the good voters from the constituency of Ross, Skye and Lochaber may be having a by-election as a tragic by-product of today’s Mogg-Law forcing MPs back to attend London HoC.

      Ironic in a way as it was the fat banker Ian Blackford that had some adverse influence on poor old Charles Kennedy MP prior to his death. To be clear, Mogg may just have put in place, rules that will kill off a large tranche MPs.

      Can anyone on this site advise how many MPs are either fat, male or old?


      All of this is horrible. But as Boris Johnson has managed to bumble so badly and cost 38,000 people their lives (ONS believe this is likely to be over 50,000 in real terms), I find myself in turmoil at agreeing with such a lounge lizard reptile such as Jacob Rees Mogg.

      Shadow Leader of the House of Commons just gave an eloquent reply about there being MANY SILENT SPREADERS OF COVID-19 ALREADY IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.

      Even though I loathe the majority of those Westminster MPs. I will be genuinely upset when Covid-19 starts extinguishing the older Tories and fat old bankers.

      Mark my words, Rees-Mogg WILL be causing COVID-BY-ELECTIONS.

    79. Sarah says:

      @ Thomas Dunlop at 2.07: I have written to my MP, Ian Blackford, again saying exactly that. Get the Convention opened and stating clearly that Scotland is taking back control on the grounds, amongst others, that we voted to stay in the EU but are being taken out.

      I don’t think the majority of Scots would disagree that we are justified in such a declaration.

    80. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Dorothy Devine

      I would say so too, strange that despite the USA being at the very least partially responsible for all that is evil in the world … their roster of musicians with a social conscience is second to none.

      I especially like Malvena Reynolds – here is one of hers that has become particularly relevant of late.

    81. callmedave says:

      Biden stepping in there as opportunity knocks, delivering a get together USA folks speech.

      Trump will be bealing at the strong criticism and scorn heaped on him and for himself carelessly leaving the main stage ’empty’.

      Expect a tweet soon.

    82. Dogbiscuit says:

      Labour can go fuck their mothers.

    83. bipod says:

      Its been many weeks now since Germany eased its lockdown, where is the second wave NS?

    84. Murray looks like the kind of guy who would take ages dithering over what he wanted in Greggs during a lunch hour queue, winding everybody up. He’d then get three sausage rolls and two pies, rushing outside to eat them outside the shop, tearing into them like a zombie into a screaming human in a George A Romero movie. Total bawfaced careerist chancer.

    85. Iain mhor says:

      I’m always curious why the continual subtext of ‘Win Scotland, to Win England’.
      Other than the obvious ‘We just want our sinecure fiefdom in Scotland and we’ll peddle that nonsense to Scots’; I see it frequently out of context. It made me ponder whether there was more than a vacuous ingrained mantra behind it. By this, I mean a reason not specifically about vote share, but more about an influencing zeitgeist.

      Is there, at some level, an understanding that politically and idealistically, Scotland does have a high degree of influence on English politics? An example of this is the current crisis; where we note some of England looking to Scotland for, I’ll suggest, ‘guidance’.

      Alternative political ideologies may well domino from Scotland and through England and via other regions with an historically fraternal ‘Labour mindset’. Emboldened by all of Scotland backing Labour, would this not translate to nudging England? Historically, did ‘Red Cydeside’ and its ilk not do this?

      If Scotland does have a greater influence and power over domestic UK politics than we, in the post 2014 malaise, give credence to – then the rise of devolution, the SNP, Independence support and a potential shift in ideologies of ‘Union’ is indeed a terrifying prospect for Labour. It’s a communicative infection, potentially more potent and damaging to Union and their fortunes than the current pandemic.

      We do see the emboldening of Wales and even N.I in realising and defining a far looser definition of ‘Union’. With such ‘zeitgeist’ (yes, please do suggest a better phrase) England may well fall under its influence – if not entirely embracing it, at the least having the sympathy to not reject the ideal and those persuing it.

      For decades I’ve maintained Scotland’s Independence will be delivered by England – not the granting of it, the recognition and acceptance of its validity, carried by those much maligned ‘settlers’ – who increasingly are not the monied and ‘imperialist’ white settler of yore – but refugees from a political landscape they reject seeking a true alternative.

      Yes, there are still many ‘imperialist white settlers’ (the elephant in the room many speak of) I suspect they are outnumbered by ratio to those other ‘refugees’ – refugees no stranger to disillusion under Labour in England, far less Toryism.
      In their turn, how many unionists in Scotland will view the influx imploring them to flee the peril in their wake and would decide ‘No, I’d like a little bit of peril, I can handle it easily’. Trickles become floods and shield walls break.
      If Labour cannot win back Scotland, it very well may be the touchstone which tells the perpetual loss of England, the ideological divide and ultimately, the loss of Union. That is ‘Scottish’ Labour’s fear, their core ideology, the sinecure of Union, the symbiosis with Toryism..

      Labour well deserve the epithet ‘Dinosaur party’. The Tories evolved, stoked the tide of English Nationalism distorted it in their image. Not the fledgling federal, civic Enish nationalism it could have been. Labour failed to embrace the present and failed in their vision of the future. They are not the party of Clydeside, nor the Miners and the Valleys – no longer the alternative vision and its vehicle’ (the SNP should note that well)

      Had Labour adapted to the desires for ‘Home Rule’, they may well have won Scotland, may well have influenced England and may well have brought forth a looser confederation – their ‘Federal UK’, They might have offered England a true English National alternative over which they could have presided – North and South of the border. Scotland rejeted them and England took note.

      It’s not enough now to try and blag the vote, by levering SNP Baaaad, to turn the map of Scotland red, hoping their old English heartlands will follow suit. ‘Win Scotland to Win England’ There has to be an idea behind it. It’s no longer what you stand against, it is what you stand for. All they have left here is Unionism and England has already rejected that and federalism died with it.
      Too late the heroes, Broon, Murray and your ilk, too late.
      ‘Condolences, the bums lost’

    86. David says:

      What a load of anti English Labour bad rubbish Boris said no and you lot and the SNP fell apart Boris called our bluff and won .
      I don’t see any chance of an Indy ref any time soon .So how are we going to get one .And if it happens some of the disgraceful comments on this site will come back and be used against you big time .And the wings party has it been formed yet or is that just another tool to promote this site .

    87. Bob Mack says:

      Why is there always a halfwit who wants to lower the tone of what has been a good thread thus far.

      Intellectual impairment perhaps? Or disrupter?

    88. Famous15 says:

      The mother of parliaments showing how antiquated it is.

      We all look to many bye elections especially when you see the age and obesity. Ian Murray of course voted with the SNP and lib dems for his own survival.

    89. Sinky says:

      Labour’s federalism is at best a mirage, at worst a cynical ploy for votes. The important point for Scotland is that it continues to block any future relationship with the EU, either via EEA or membership. For that reason alone it should be rejected. Ian Murray wants all four UK countries to come out of lockdown together….that’s not respecting devolution.

      Then he ignores Scottish Covid rules by travelling to London for Question Time last week.

      Strange times when Common Weal and Financial Times are bedfellows in promoting London propaganda regarding Scotland’s record on Covid-19.

    90. Famous15 says:

      David,it is my opinion based on what they said previously that the anti English comments are by those who would wish to have your view validated. They do not support indy.

    91. MaggieC says:

      If you want a good laugh right now watch the Parliament channel . How this shower at Westminster even try to govern but cannot even follow simple instructions how to vote walking through the chamber , cannot even walk and talk at the same time . A class of nursery kids could do it better than this shower . LOL .

    92. callmedave says:

      The WM lobby system of voting is a laughable and antiquated at the best of times and even worse today as they queue up 2M apart in a long , long line to vote in front of the speakers chair to observe social distancing due to the virus.
      Only those there in person can vote and 40 SNP MP’s still in Scotland.

      Mogg is having his vote and is likely to win and WM MPs will have to turn up in person. Result in about another 45mins.. 🙂


      Free streaming Snooker started at 4pm. probably through to late evening.

    93. MaggieC says:

      CallmeDave , I see both our posts came up at the same time . The whole thing is a farce from start to finish . The Tory’s just want to have their braying back bench donkeys behind them . LOL

    94. Ronnie says:

      I know John Ruddy in real life and he’s exactly as much of a complete fucking tube as his Tweets suggest.

    95. Gregory Beekman says:

      Sorry if I’ve missed this but…

      …will you be updating the Twitter feed on this page?

      Or putting your latest Twitter handle as a pinned post?

    96. callmedave says:


      You be right with that thought, circuses and bread and the gladiators roar all a bit of a John Bullish opera for the masses.


    97. Gary45% says:

      I think Murray would go up to the counter at Greggs and say, “A Daily Mail and a Daily Rekurd please, then rush out and try and read them, whilst holding them upside down.

    98. Dan says:

      Iain mhor says: at 3:52 pm

      I’m always curious why the continual subtext of ‘Win Scotland, to Win England’.

      Ah, but lest we forget Ol’ Corduroy pontifitweeting “When Labour wins, Scotland wins”.

      So I guess that means Scotland’s basically stuck in a self perpetuating chicken and egg vortex of never winning for the foreseeable…

    99. Capella says:

      Your Wullie posts some great photos on Twitter depicting street children from the the mid decades of the 20th Century. This one is so poignant; a family in Govan in 1975. It’s hard to believe the poverty in Glasgow so late in the century and at the start of the oil boom.

      Govan was a Labour stronghold. It was held by Gordon Jackson, yes THAT Gordon Jackson, for Labour until 2007. Nicola Surgeon won it for the SNP and has held it ever since though the boundaries have changed. Labour’s many turns at the Westminster tiller did nothing for Govan.

    100. Andy Ogston says:

      Recently I was talking to a chap who had canvassed for Labour at the recent election. Let’s assume he meant well, but I found his tone rather telling-when “the Scots” “come back to us”, as though we were really “their” voters and owed them allegiance, and voting for anybody else was somehow in-natural.

      Millennium- although I’m not entirely comfortable with your phrasing of it, I do agree that the British establishment’s delusions of grandeur are utterly absurd. I saw an article the other day by Jeremy Hunt and David Milliband on “why Britain must lead the world’s response to coronavirus”. Unbelievable! They just can’t handle the truth!

    101. robert graham says:

      Unless I am wrong English MPs have just voted to stop Scottish MPs voting in their parliament ,if that’s the case all SNP MPs stuck in or around Westminster should immediately withdraw and make their views known , if one of us can’t vote none of us will vote , until arrangements are made the Scottish people have no voice therefore a vote will be called in the Scottish parliament with a aim of dissolving the Union , Rees Mogg is welcome to attend , oops not allowed to travel that distance in Scotland Jacob tough shit eh .

    102. Rm says:

      Why does Ian Murray and the rest of the unionist reporters, journalists, politicians go and bide down in england and let Real Scots get on with running and building up a future for Scotland, they do nothing but take Scotland down at every opportunity so why are they here, just a bunch of gutless lowlife liars how do they sleep at night in a country they despise so much.

    103. Dorothy Devine says:

      Col Blimp ,thanks for two things the lady herself and the reminder of Mississippi Burning – literally and the film.

    104. callmedave says:

      No tracing contacts numbers again today North or South of the border.
      I did notice on the N. Ireland BBC website this morning that they have about 350 traced contacts.

      Official WM Gov figures.

      Scotland …….today…..12……….Total……2375….BBC
      N. Ireland……today…..02……….Total…….526….BBC
      UK……………..334…….Total…..39369…WM Gov.

      Again the UK daily total of 334 and not the 164 in the table.

      So 170 additional deaths outwith hospitals have been included.

    105. CameronB Brodie says:

      Rudy and Murray are obviously a rather narrow and parochial BritNat, so lack moral perspective and political integrity. 😉

      “Without a process by which Scotland can get out of the Union at will it can no longer be maintained that Scotland remains in the Union by consent.”

      Contemporary British constitutionalism employs legal FORCE in order articulate authoritarian English nationalism. The idea of democratic union is now dead.

      In 1930, during the Great Depression, Professor Karl Llewellyn declared in the Harvard Law Review that “ferment” was abroad in the land and legal scholarship, proclaiming “realism” a powerful scholarly force. In the past year, we have seen our own ferment: the world has shown us the folly of some of legal scholarship’s most powerful intellectual assumptions about the wisdom and rationality of markets and the inevitable failures of politics.

      These events should renew interest in “realist” approaches to law and render salient an emerging body of legal scholarship that has dubbed itself “new legal realism.” This Article surveys this scholarship and argues that “new legal realism” is a response to a “new formalism” – that derived from neoclassical law and economics. New legal realists are not anti-economics (some of them are economists themselves), but they are challenging the new formalism’s assumptions about the individual, the state, and judging, as well as its approach to legal scholarship.

      This Article assesses and critiques the various forms of new-legal-realist scholarship, from behavioral economics to legal empiricism, and offers suggestions about future directions for a scholarly agenda more capable of addressing our vulnerable national order. We argue that new legal realism in its many forms holds out greater promise than existing formalisms. At the same time, we contend that some forms of “new legal realism” risk reducing law to other academic ideas or to unimportance altogether.

      Here, we begin the effort to outline a “dynamic new realism” that emphasizes the best of the old realism without indulging its excesses. Our form of dynamic realism focuses on “mediating” theory, which aims selfconsciously to theorize the bridge between the world and legal institutions without reducing one to the other. We believe that law cycles recursively over time between the world and legal institutions, which is why empirical and historical inquiry is essential to understanding law’s actual operation, its failures and successes.

      Unlike much of the old realism, this dynamic realism recognizes that law has purchase within its sphere, if for no other reason than that legal institutions have the power to alter the very concepts or ends law seeks. This recognition, in turn, requires critical engagement with the most basic concepts and values that shape institutions, assumptions as fundamental as the relationship between individual liberty and collective vulnerability, law’s violence and its reason, law’s bias toward the status quo and yet its inherent dynamic qualities.

      A dynamic new realism would recognize the “principle of simultaneity,” that law, politics, and society, not to mention markets and governments, cannot be reduced to one another because they interact simultaneously. It is this dynamic interaction that the best of realism must study and theorize.

    106. twathater says:

      Ayesha Hazaraki in her tweets apparently thinks jaiky baillie is an intellectual giant , doesn’t jaiky hide it well

    107. CameronB Brodie says:

      That’s terrible, I can’t even proof read a single sentence. That should have read as “Rudy and Murray are obviously rather narrow and parochial BritNats, so lack moral perspective and political integrity”. 😉

      Legal Realism for Economists

    108. Beaker says:

      @MaggieC says:
      2 June, 2020 at 4:07 pm
      “If you want a good laugh right now watch the Parliament channel . How this shower at Westminster even try to govern but cannot even follow simple instructions how to vote walking through the chamber , cannot even walk and talk at the same time . A class of nursery kids could do it better than this shower . LOL .”

      I’ve seen a drunk open a door with more panache.

    109. callmedave says:


      Rudy Murray! Remember her well in the 1950s a string of hits.

      Me Mother used to join in when she sang those Irish songs on BBC radio Family Favourites to the BFO in Germany.

      Followed by the Goons if I mind right.

      Those were the days we never had it so good. 🙁

    110. CameronB Brodie says:

      If Rudy and Murray did not lack moral perspective and political integrity, they would be able to support Treaty law and the principle of universal human rights. Unfortunately, both appear to be consumed by ideology and are, subsequently, incapable of critical reason.

      Human Rights in International Relations, and: Realism and
      International Relations (review)

    111. Sarah says:

      @ robert graham at 5.15: I agree the Convention should be opened now. But Scotgov can’t do it as dealing with virus. But the Westminster MPs could and should come back and work on the Convention.

      Is there a central Yes body that can call all the different Yes organisations together and organise a co-ordinated demand for a constitutional convention and say how it can be formed and run without the FM having to be the head? Perhaps a petition to Holyrood?

      Regaining independence is an urgent need – we can’t wait for Holyrood elections in 2021.

    112. CameronB Brodie says:

      Social cognition is strange. I know certain living standards have improved since the ’50s, whilst others have gone backwards. The same could probably be said throughout time. That’s why we need to be able to see clearly that which has real value, and that which is cultural illusion. This is why a realistic approach to law and legal practice is essential to underpinning democracy and social progress.

    113. Andy Ogston says:

      I keep coming across unionist acquaintances who are looking at the British virus omnishambles and dropping their jaws and conceding we may have a point. This batshit crazy voting farce in Westminster today is proof that unionism is just plain weird.

    114. Breeks says:

      Col.Blimp IV says:
      2 June, 2020 at 1:38 pm
      Colin Alexander

      Sovereignty isn’t something that can be bought or sold by politicians – It is something that can be claimed at any time.

      All that is required is the will to invoke our right to exercise it.

      Scottish sovereignty does exist. It has it’s written constitution defining itself and the Nation of Scotland, in the Declaration of Arbroath. There is no legislation which rescinds Scotland’s popular sovereignty of the people. Scotland IS a sovereign Nation.

      The problem isn’t the integrity of Scottish Sovereignty, but the convention whereby the International Community does not recognise Scotland as sovereign, but instead recognises the Union, and it’s unwritten “convention” on Parliamentary Sovereignty as the legally sovereign Government of the UK.

      That the Union is denounced as a lie and a fraud, for purporting to do a thing it cannot properly do, or alternatively, denounced as a breached contract that is now untenable after Scotland’s unlawful subjugation, requires the Nation of Scotland to cry foul, and set out it’s sovereign credentials in the expectation the International Community will recognise the Union is extinguished and cease to recognise Westminster as “the” seat of U.K. Government, because there is no longer a UK in existence.

      That Scotland’s Sovereignty was properly lawful, and recognised for centuries before the Union, is indisputable and a tremendous strength in Scotland’s favour, because it sets a precedent in time, it provides Scotland with impeccable provenance, and defines a Constitutional default status which we can be reset to, – a bit like reverting Scotland to factory settings. In contrast, the Union of 1707 was a work of creative sophistry from the outset, and can only exist if defined by unwritten and non-specific conventions.

      A great example of this is Boris Johnson arbitrarily proroguing the Westminster Parliament. In true “British” style, he pushed ahead with prorogation because there wasn’t a rule which said he couldn’t do it. Neither Westminster, nor the UK Supreme Court had any precedent or established convention to contest Boris Johnson’s arbitrary decision, because that’s how Westminster government works. Westminster functions by making up the rules as it goes.

      However, step forward one rather clever lady, Joanna Cherry, successfully using Scots Law, and the written, explicit constitutional principle that the Scottish people are sovereign, and therefore Parliament is thus answerable to the people, not an authoritarian PM, and the nett result being that Boris Johnson had to respect a point of Scottish constitutional principle and un-prorogue Westminster, because a Scottish Court told him to. Suddenly, Westminster’s rogues charter of an unwritten convention had a line or two “written” convention it was bound by law to respect.

      Boil away the flesh, and what that Prorogation episode neatly represents is the woolly and unwritten UK “Constitution” quickly unraveling whenever it is confronted with, and challenged by, the clarity and unambiguous certainty of Scotland’s written constitutional principle. THAT is how Scottish Sovereignty can, and must, assert itself.

      The unwritten nature of the UK constitution is both it’s strength, as a rogues charter, but properly challenged, it’s greatest weakness too. They have no rules to overrule Scotland’s Constitutional edicts.

      To put it even more bluntly, Scotland’s written constitution is sound and lawful, and has nothing to fear from legal scrutiny. Such similar scrutiny applied to the UK Union would however be it’s undoing, because it would expose the Union as a mere facade, which routinely “invents” arbitrary conventions to sidestep constitutional legalities which it cannot navigate past or resolve without bending rules. There is a very good reason why the rules must remain unwritten.

      It is NOT a UDI which Scotland needs. It is a UN Constitutional Tribunal or test case, to examine the constitutional dog’s breakfast of the UK, and determine whether Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty is as sound and robust as it always was, and furthermore, confirm that the UK Union is a false and unlawful contrivance of homespun conventions of opportunity and necessity, which under close inspection, is revealed as unworthy of International Recognition.

      Scotland will win this argument. But to win the argument, there first has to BE an argument. Scotland has to instigate the dispute of U.K. sovereignty. Nobody will do it for us. Nobody can do it on our behalf. Scotland MUST protest. And for the love of God, do it soon. Do not, I beg you, wait for the supine SNP to lead us into another dreary and colourless referendum campaign which is doomed to failure because it is constitutionally illiterate, and simply doesn’t know where the finishing line actually is.

    115. CameronB Brodie says:

      Contemporary British constitutional law and practice lacks coherence and compatibility with international human rights law. British human rights maintain Britain is one nation, so perpetuate the legal fallacy that separates Scots from the international rule-of-law. That might have been OK in the ’50s, but international law and human rights law has evolved considerably since than.

      Brexit removes Scotland further away from due legal process, and should be considered an attack on the international legal order.

      Legal Realism and International Law
      There are three pillars of jurisprudence: moral theorizing (reflected in natural law, but not exclusive to it); analytic theorizing (reflected in positivism); and socio-legal theorizing (reflected in legal realism).2

      Legal realism exemplifies this third approach to international law theory beyond natural law and positive law covered in chapters 1 and 2, and it provides a foundation for many theoretical approaches in the chapters that follow. For legal realists, jurisprudence should be conceived not just in terms of what law ‘is’ our ‘ought’ to be, but also in terms of how law obtains meaning, operates, and changes through practice.3

      In the United States (U.S.) legal realism grew out of and continues to have parallels with European socio-legal thought (sometimes referred to as European legal realism), as well as socio-legal thought around the world.4 It built from sociological jurisprudence that developed in Europe and the United States in the early twentieth century. Yet, in its formative years, it largely did not engage with international law since international law lacked salience in the U.S. academy before the U.S. rise to global power, the creation of the United Nations and the Bretton Woods institutions, and U.S. engagement with international law in the context of the Cold War.5

      Some American legal realists, indeed mainly as an aside, questioned the place of international law in light of interstate struggles for power,6 as later reflected in the rise of international relations realism. American legal realism nonetheless exercised a profound influence on international law theory after World War II in the United States, including on international relations realism, the New Haven School of International Law, and many other approaches addressed in this book.7

      With economic globalization and the expansion of international institutions after the collapse of the Soviet Union and the fall of the Berlin Wall, many areas of international law became of much greater salience. New international institutions, including international courts, proliferated, and international norm making – be it of a formally binding or informal soft-law nature – increasingly enmeshed with national law and practice across areas of social life, including almost all domains of human rights, regulatory, and business law. As a result, the social sciences became more interested in international law and institutions, spurring empirical study of these developments….

    116. jfngw says:

      Rees-Mogg was obviously so taken by the VE Day congas that he thought that’s what I need in Westminster to replace our antiquated voting system. You kick to the right for an ‘Aye’, left for a ‘No’. He forgot the music, it’s not real conga without it.

    117. Al-Stuart says:

      As a former Labour voter for two decades and long-term member of the Labour Party from student days during Thatcher to when Alex Salmond called Tony Blair out as an Iraq war murderer, I believe there is a glaring problem for the Labour Yoons at the top of this thread…

      I may be very angry at the current SNP leadership, but the arrogant assumption that Labour somehow OWN my CONSTITUENCY and the jaw dropping assertion that Labour OWN my VOTE and I am obliged to return to Labour is the epitome of their delusional position.

      As for SNP… at the moment I refuse to vote for THAT woman in Bute House who tried to get Alex Salmond jailed with trumped up charges. Deploying 400 police officers to solicit dirt for political purposes will require the civil servants and current Scottish Government politicians to be cautioned, charged and put on trial before I will look at voting SNP this year or next year.

      If/when Alex Salmond and/or Joanna Cherry QC., MP., are elected to LEAD the SNP, then, then I will gladly vote SNP and go door-to-door to help secure an SNP government.

      But Labour are beyond the pale. There are NO circumstances I would ever vote Labour again.

      So Ian Murray and his dissonant theorising can go and take a long walk off of a short pier.

    118. liz says:

      The latest defeatest shite from Wishart,

      What I don’t get about these ‘plan Bs’ is what happens when the UK says No to them? And how does that differ from the UK saying No to a referendum?

      Apparently Stewart McDonald voted with the Gov today

    119. MaggieC says:

      Beaker @ 5.47pm

      I’ve thrown better drunks out than that shower at Westminster when I worked in pubs , LOL .

    120. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry for the length of this excerpt but the rule-of-law requires and deserves defending, IMHO. This points to why neither Brexit nor the proposed GRA reform are compatible with the rule-of-law, as they both dislocate the law from empirical reality. Britain is not one nation and trans-women are biologically male.

      Breaking the Rules?: Wittgenstein and Legal Realism
      Recent years have seen a growth of interest in the relationship between the later philosophy of Ludwig Wittgenstein’ and questions in the philosophy of law.2 This interest has compelling historical origins. Professor H.L.A. Hart acknowledged his debt to Wittgenstein in the context of his discussion of legal rules in The Concept of Law,3 a book commonly considered to be the first thorough account of legal positivism and perhaps the seminal modem text on
      jurisprudential theory. More recently, writers from a very different tradition – that of legal realism – have begun to turn to Wittgenstein for inspiration as well.4

      In particular, several realist scholars have focused on the legal implications of Wittgenstein’s sustained treatment of rule following in Philosophical Investigations. There are at least two reasons to think their interest in this
      topic is important. First, one might expect that a central task of legal theory is to explain how it is that we live our lives guided by legal rules. Learning to bring one’s behavior into accord with rules can be understood, on this view, as a central phenomenon of life under law.6

      Second, an account of law in terms of rules has traditionally been crucial to explaining the legitimacy of the legal system.7 As one prominent legal realist puts it, “Determinacy is necessary to the ideology of the rule of law, for both theorists and judges. It is the only way judges can appear to apply the law rather than make it.

      Determinative rules and arguments are desirable because they restrain arbitrary judicial power.”8 If law does not guide behavior through rules, such theorists assert, it must guide through unconstrained decisions, leaving people subject to a system governed by the arbitrary whim and caprice of individual judges – an illegitimate system.9

      Given the importance of legal rules for understanding the legitimacy of the judicial system, I seek to examine the writing of legal theorists who focus on Wittgenstein’s treatment of rules. I argue that what appears to be a relatively technical debate about the nature of Wittgenstein’s rule-following arguments and their relevance for law actually brings to light deep and important issues
      in the political theory of legal interpretation. An understanding of Wittgenstein’s arguments and their application to law provides insight into a central dispute concerning the legitimacy of the rule of law….

    121. Robert Louis says:

      WTF are SNP MP’s doing in Westminster indulging the charade of a voting system??? Do they know how utterly utterly pathetic they look??? And why are SNP MP’s breaking lockdown rules in Scotland????? Seriously, SNP, WTF are you playing at? Why not start fighting for Scotland instead of playing along with the silly games of Jacob Rees Mogg??

      I am in despair over the SNP MP’s, and as for Pete Wishart, we can only hope he never gets elected again. I have never in my life heard such negativity and pathetic knee-bending to English rule over Scotland.

      For heavens sake, SNP, get off your knees. Start fighting for Scotland, instead of playing along with Westminster stupidity.

      Yet another golden opportunity missed, yet again. But, hey at least pathetic Pete is happy, back moaning about Westminster, whislt wandering the corridors of Westminster, feeling all self important – he chairs a ‘committee’, dom’t you know. A wet blanket springs to mind. Pathetic.

    122. PacMan says:

      This ‘Scotland needs to get behind Labour’ gets peddled out so many times its like a broken record.

      Labour and their Scottish Tory media buddies seems to think that if they repeat it often enough, people will believe it. However, they are totally delusional with their message in that somehow the only purpose of Scots is to vote Labour and in not doing so, they are somehow committing something wrong and need to be shamed into doing so again. Arrogance in the extreme isn’t the word for it.

      It is not only arrogant but also stupid. Even looking at this casually exposes the flaws. Scotland could deliver every single one of their MP’s as Labour but it doesn’t matter unless they win enough seats in England.

      The only way for Labour to win in England is to head to the right as they had did under the Blair/Brown years. It is fair to say that the mainstream political outlook of Scotland is centre/left. For Scots to get behind a Labour that is capable of winning south of the border, they are going to have to give up a lot of political ideals. Are people seriously going to do that?

      The other hole in that argument is that a left leaning SNP is similar politically to what Labour was historically. It isn’t too hard for the SNP to prop up a minority Labour government and deliver policies that is palatable to most Scots and Labour supporters elsewhere in the UK. It makes no political sense for Labour to compete with the SNP and splitting the centre/left vote and letting right wing liberals/Tories in.

      Of course, that is if Labour kept true to their political ideals which we all know won’t happen.

    123. Robert Louis says:

      Just watching the parliament channel, and honestly, the SNP are a complete and utter bunch of diddies for indulging this nonsense.

    124. Sensibledave says:

      CBB 7.55

      … no need to apologise for the length of the link Cammy. No one reads your links no matter what length they are.

    125. CameronB Brodie says:

      Don’t you wish that were the case?

      Rethinking constitutional ordering in an
      era of legal and ideological pluralism

    126. CameronB Brodie says:

      I thought the SNP were a democratic party that supported the rule-of-law, Scotland’s self-determination, and recognition in the world order. Was I wrong?

      Enforcement of EU Values as a Political Endeavour: Constitutional Pluralism and Value Homogeneity in Times of Persistent Challenges to the Rule of Law

    127. John Jones says:

      WHY tell me Why are our SNP MPs down in wastemonger?
      Why are the police not on their tail for breaking the lockdown rules? Will they be allowed to return to Scotland without going into self isolation?
      Is there something special about them, like Cummings?
      I hope the lot of them get infected by a really severe dose of the virus, perhaps not fatal, just bad enough so that it is not passed on to their nearest or any other innocent bystander.
      I didn’t have much respect for them before this latest f;up,
      There goes my vote again!

    128. Proud Cybernat says:

      Stewart McDonald DIDN’T vote with the Tories. He voted with SNP.

    129. terence callachan says:

      Money changes everything
      Money targets people in power and persuades them to instigate change
      Labour gave us the NHS and council housing and free schools state pensions social security

      But Labour has been persuaded by insiders who have taken the money
      Persuaded to ditch their credentials
      The people in control of Labour are not the kind of people who believe in a NHS council housing free schools state pensions social security

      Labour have become tories with red ties

      The SNP cannot be all things to all people
      No political party can

      But today the best political party to vote for if you want Scottish independence is still the SNP

    130. bipod says:

      A good article, but long, on the facts around the lockdown and covid 19 that are conviently ignored by the media and politicians.

      Why does nicola sturgeon continue to perpetuate the second wave myth without any scientific evidence. It must be why they are so resistant to publishing minutes with the chief medical officers as it would show just how unscientific the lockdown and the 4 phase plan actually are.

    131. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s one to give folk some perspective on where J. B. Handley is coming from. He is a businessman who appears to have little background in science or ethical jurisprudence. Just saying. 😉

      J.B. Handley: No Study Shows “Vaccines Didn’t Cause My Son’s Autism”

      How did you educate yourself?

      My wife and I both, from the day we had concerns about Jamison, we were on the Web trying to understand what is wrong with our son. We got absolutely no help from the local pediatrician who told us everything would be fine and he would come around. But literally spending 20 minutes doing an evaluation, we knew we had a serious, serious problem on our hands. He was hitting every single metric for autism.

    132. Brian Doonthetoon says:


      Once again you are displaying your trolling credentials. Is it not about time you gave up, before you are demoted?

      “Second wave myth” you spout, ignoring the comment directed at you this afternoon. Do you even bother to read the comments posted between your last visit and your latest?

      You are sussed – give up with some dignity intact – no, wait a minute, that’s not possible. You’re just sussed.

    133. jfngw says:

      bipod – monobrain.

    134. Rm says:

      Has any labour or conservative or Lib Dem or green or SNP or Monster Raving Loony party or any politician really did a hard days work, most of them don’t stick by their beliefs, their tied to their party’s thoughts what about their own, they haven’t got any they are led and that’s what’s wrong no original or independent thinkers, every mp or msp should be independent and be able to think for themselves, things are changing and the powers that be don’t like it the real people are getting wise to what’s been happening for centuries.

    135. Clapper57 says:

      Labour…are Tories in all but name
      Opposition to Tories ?.. nope… way too lame
      God forbid they should feel any sense of shame
      Being Tories little helpers cause that’s what they became

      Mini Murray mint forgets that he’s a WM MP
      Meant to oppose the Tories not just the SNPeeeeeeeeeeeee
      He is sooooo a shadow Tory that’s plain for all to see
      Now that’s a truth upon which I’m sure we all can agree

      Union uber alles is all they really really care about
      When it should be fighting Tories to try and get them out
      Too obsessed with ermine and expenses no doubt
      Cause that is what it’s really really really all about

      Federalism, Federalism is apparently their solution
      Is that their only response in the way of retribution
      So was the ‘problem’ to be solved the constitution?
      Surely not when we have this great Union(uber alles) institution

      Red Tories no longer flying the flag that is red
      No ….socialism as a concept is, for them, truly dead
      It’s also a concept that obviously fills them with dread
      So they chose capitalism as a much better concept instead

      New Labour old Labour same Labour as before
      They think we’re all daft and don’t know the score
      Democracy….not for the Scots…the ones they ignore
      Well once we were fooled but now we’re fooled…no more

      Finally let’s look at the stable of fine specimens of Labour past and present so that we may mourn our loss….Brian Wilson, George Foulkes, John Reid, Margaret Curran, George Robertson, Gordon Brown, Tony Blair, Hugh Gaffney, James Kelly, Richard Leonard, Jackie Baillie, Alistair Darling, Ian Murray, Jim Murphy, Keiza Dugdale, Tom Harris, Pamela Nash… name but a few…

      Where are they all now…well some are Lords…some have lucrative jobs as consultants for private companies, Think Tanks etc…

      One runs a pro Unionist Bitter Together organisation ( though not bitter at loss of income and benefits as MP..oh NO)….one has come out of the Red closet and into the blue open and ran Leave EU for Scotland.

      One writes the same column in a Scottish newspaper every week i.e. the target of column is static just a different version of another story of SNPBAD, one now works for a former Labour PM who was a massive weapon of destruction….and will continue to do until he can get back to Castle Grayskull….Lol

      One went on a march and spoke to a churnalist on camera but while doing so forgot he was an MP, one ex Labour PM keeps coming back like a bad curry to make speeches to the converted, one sits in the Lords ( I say sits but has a wee nap more apt) and when he tweets one cannot help but see an image of a man standing with an ‘accidental’ wet patch on the front of his trousers.

      One ran away from the Scottish political arena knowing that, like her Tory supposed nemesis, her time was up but no worries another lucrative job was waiting in the wings….

      Ah memories and dodged b**lets….i.e. our memories never ever to be forgotten also so many b**lets we dodged……when we ditched them…..or as some say they DITCHED us….something for us to be thankful for at least….Lol

    136. Brian Macfarlane says:

      Fuck them all Stu

    137. Coronavirus latest in Europe:
      — UK COVID19 deaths hit 39,369
      — Italy’s death toll climbs to 33,530
      — Spain reports no new deaths for 2nd consecutive day
      — France enters 2nd phase in easing restrictions.

    138. shug says:

      I noticed on BBC Scotland tonight they announced a new Scottish Office Minister MP Ian Stewart.

      They mentioned he was scots born but omitted he is the MP for Milton Keynes

      Funny they forgot that.

      ha ha ha – Call Kaye

    139. Gfaetheblock says:

      Al Stuart,

      You are getting confused re 400 police, which makes no logical sense. I don’t know if the below is true, but more believable.

      “A 22 person team from Police Scotland worked for over a year identifying and interviewing almost 400 hoped-for complainants and witnesses against Alex Salmond. This resulted in nil charges and nil witnesses. Nil.” Craig Murray

    140. Clapper57 says:

      I see Andrew Bowie been overlooked for Douglas Ross’s wee Junior ‘Mr Nobody’ job at the Scotland office….after all of his crawling to…Ja I’m with Dom…Can ya hear me Boris ….Can Ya ?…shame that.

      A Scot who is the MP in the Milton Keynes constituency got the job…even inarticulate David Duguid got an even weer junior junior ‘Mr Nobody’ minister job there …..shame that.

      Zowie Bowie…..Ground control to Major Dom….shame that.

    141. Chic McGregor says:

      Only my lifelong opinion, but to me Labour diehards are more xenophobic and more BritNat than the Tories.

    142. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’ve probably mentioned placing politics above the law only gets you into trouble. Well, contemporary British constitutionalism places contemporary English Torydum above the Treaty of Union. That’s not particularly “indeterminate” or sensible. 😉

      History of European Ideas
      Legal realism and human rights

      This essay uses Schmitt’s work to cast new light on the relevance of the American legal tradition known as ‘legal realism’ for the history and analysis of human rights. It does so by exploring several of Schmitt’s most famous criticisms of international law and human rights, and then suggests how they might correspond with a widespread critical legal tradition in the 1920s and 1930s.

      This essay describes in detail two fundamental features of this tradition: historicism and realism. It concludes by suggesting that a return to some of these earlier law writers and texts might be a more substantive way to develop a constructive critical position in the fields of human rights and international law than an overreliance on the politically provocative (and problematic) rhetorical flourishes of Carl Schmitt.

      Human rights, Legal realism, Historicism, Pragmatism

    143. bipod says:

      I read articles they were posted on the 10th and 11th of May, the days when the lockdown was eased in germany. A quick check of current stats show that the trend has been downward since then. No second peak.

      I don’t reply to camerons comments, he isn’t interested in any of the science around the debate, just gatekeeping.

    144. Clapper57 says:

      @ Me @ 10.59pm

      Meant to say the new boy Iain Stewart who got Douglas Ross’s junior ‘Mr Nobody’ job….accepted Dom’s explanation re breaking lockdown or rather in Iain’s opinion..NOT breaking lockdown….

      So he should fit into the Scottish office…like a chocolate teapot….”more sugar with your tea from the chocolate teapot Alistair”…..said new Junior Mr Nobody to his bossy Jack boots.

    145. bussiman says:

      Just a thought, who’s paying for this holiday?

    146. Joe says:


      I posted the very CDC release that officially shows the 0.2% death rate from Covid-19. I even broke it down into kiddy language. But here are people quoting the same scum media they have complained about lying for years in the face of the actual science while insulting those who present it. Its fucking mind boggling. The Scots are absolutely not of the same breed as we once were.

    147. CameronB Brodie says:

      I admit I have insufficient knowledge of the situation to recommend specific policy, but you appear to lack understanding in general. I’m trained to combine science, law, and ethics to shape good policy, I don’t think you are, that’s the difference.

      THEORY AND METHODS : Ethics and governance of global health inequalities

    148. CameronB Brodie says:

      As if you do anything other than quack.

      A cosmopolitan legal order: Constitutional pluralism and rights adjudication in Europe

    149. Joe says:


      You were recently asked a direct question of your opinion of a constitutional matter. I think the question was cleverly laid to catch you out. It worked. Your answer, when you managed one, showed you cant even read let alone understand. I wont name names but well done that man.

    150. CameronB Brodie says:

      I must have missed that question, can you locate it for me please?

    151. CameronB Brodie says:

      Correction, can you locate it for me as I can’t remember it or replying to it. My focus of attention is on a number of different policy fields right now, so you’ll need to excuse my oversight.

      Global health ethics: critical reflections on the contours of an emerging field, 1977–2015

    152. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s an instructive paper if you are unable to locate this question you suggest gave me difficulties. 😉


      In Canada profound diversification of multiple moral, political and normative commitments of a multiplicity of communities is unstoppable. Its historically liberalized, modernized and secularized law dominates principles of procedural justice in expressing the monistic liberal theory of rights now entrenched as individual rights within its charter.

      For religious believers, basing legal and political life on moral behavior acquired through generations of norms is integral to both security of state, and integrity of multiple communities. Tension exists between religious rights, demands of different visions of the good life, secular politics and the slow reshaping of liberal constitutional law in recognizing religious pluralism in the context of freedom of religion guarantees.

      The greatest challenge in liberal freedom of religion jurisprudence is to balance equality and difference and attain judicial consistency. If conflicting normative systems are not able to combine their respective power and co-exist, the potential of conflicts to escalate is serious.

    153. robertknight says:

      Dover House has a new House Jock it would appear – Fluffy’s old PPS. At least he’ll already know where the mop and bucket are kept – saves Union Jack the job of having to show him.

    154. Millennium says:

      Fuck HMS Engerland

      And may she sink during her next voyage with the loss of all hands.

      Now that would be worth clapping for on a Thursday night.

      Right be honest here,,,who would pee on an englishman if he was on fire???

      Naw,,me neither.

      Oh,,ye huv tae laugh don’t ye…

    155. CameronB Brodie says:

      If you want to support our cause I suggest you drop the cultural intolerance, a.k.a. racism. Mkay!

      Discrimination and Intolerance

    156. susan says:

      Labour in Scotland always were overrated. Very much a Central Belt party that represented the Central Belt. They had nothing to offer the rest of Scotland and when push came to shove, nothing to offer the Central Belt either. The sooner they’re gone the better.

    157. Liz g says:

      Cameron B Brodie @ 2.34
      He’s no going to drop the racist shit Cameron he’s one of the one’s…..well ye know the type …thinking their all that on here and theirs not a one of us that would share a drink wi them and their affliction real world!
      Anymore than jumped up Joe is going to stop trying to bait you with his repetitive two and one half points framed every which way he can…..all the while failing to grasp that not only can we read and comprehend we can spot a player so well now the Rev doesn’t even bother with them 🙂

    158. robbo says:

      Millennium says:
      3 June, 2020 at 2:13 am

      You’re beyond hope.

    159. Millennium says:

      Liz g

      You never fail, you have got to stick that fuckin Sturgeonista nose of yours into something that has fuck all to do with you.

      You are a stupid useless piece of shit who contributes nothing.

      You play to the crowd,,,

      That’s why you are on the list of STURGEONITAS who don’t want any decenting voices on here who critisize your wee prescious Nicola.

      The majority of woman who stand by Sturgeon are usually like her,,,no time for men,,,they prefer women’s company,,,know what a mean Liz g???

      Liz g, I don’t know if you are a lesbian like Sturgeon,,,but you sure as fuck come across as the “Butch” type.

      Famous15 Ayeright
      Liz g

      And a few others on here, mistakenly think this site is a Nicola Sturgeon fan club site.

      Well sorry to shock you, but things have moved on, and we no longer believe Sturgeon is the person who will lead us to Independence.

      So you and your wee gang should either set up a Nicola Sturgeon fan club site, where you can hound away until your heart’s content, or shut up and stop acting like gatekeepers to a site that isn’t interested in the shite you post.

    160. Millennium says:


      Check the list of Sturgeonistas

      Only Fannies get onto that list

    161. schrodingers cat says:

      It is NOT a UDI which Scotland needs. It is a UN Constitutional Tribunal or test case

      ur dreaming if you think the un will back scotland over wm, one of the 5 permanent members,

      hint, they wont, anymore than the eu backed catalunya. their leaders are still in jail.

    162. Dan says:

      OT Truly remarkable advances being made in the field of human study at the Met.

      The UK’s largest police force has released analysis showing “a strong correlation” between lockdown breaches, hot weather and holiday periods.

      I’d always wondered why the beaches and parks and pretty much everywhere else outside was deserted when it was pissing with rain and freezing, or during working hours.
      So proud that my taxes are funding such complex analysis of societal behaviour…


    163. Effijy says:

      Congratulations Boris and Cummings.
      I see you have now overtaken Spain who
      Sat in second place, on a global scale for
      Civid Deaths per Million of population.

      Belgium appears to be the worst on the planet
      With these stats however we know for a fact the
      Tories in England are refusing to included the
      Dramatic increase in the Excess Death numbers
      that are obviously connected to the virus.

      With the Excess Deaths included, the UK has over 65,000
      Covid related deaths which is just under 100 Deaths per
      Million of population while Belgium’s horrific figure sits at 880.

      I listen to the Tories and much of the UK media and they portray
      The UK are in control, they are working hard and doing a magnificent job
      and we will come through this???

      No. Westminster has done the worst job on the plant when compared with
      Over 220 other countries.
      They refused to accept the recommendations from the Cygnus Report.
      The refused to stop major events like Cheltenham races, inter nation football
      Matches and major concerts.
      They didn’t have the PPE stockpiles they should have.
      They didn’t introduce lockdown when they should have been reading the warnings Italy and Spain
      Gave us.

      Negotiating with the EU for assistance was negligent and competing globally for
      PPE kit was pathetic and leading by example on lockdown was mind numbing my
      Dumb Mr Cummings!

      At least 10 more years of this leadership unless Scotland does something about it.

    164. Famous15 says:

      Milleniumm decentlly outs the list of true independistas contributing today.

      All others including him / her / it self are trollers just trolling along.

      I believe in independence but M is so Bond. Shurely Miss Pennybody?

    165. schrodingers cat says:

      this is in breach of your guidelines, i thought you were the only one who decides what people can and cant post. (the lack of paragraph breaks is also annoying. is wings now a playground for unionist trolls?

      Millennium says:
      3 June, 2020 at 8:07 am
      Liz g
      You never fail, you have got to stick that fuckin Sturgeonista nose of yours into something that has fuck all to do with you.
      You are a stupid useless piece of shit who contributes nothing.
      You play to the crowd,,,
      That’s why you are on the list of STURGEONITAS who don’t want any decenting voices on here who critisize your wee prescious Nicola.
      The majority of woman who stand by Sturgeon are usually like her,,,no time for men,,,they prefer women’s company,,,know what a mean Liz g???
      Liz g, I don’t know if you are a lesbian like Sturgeon,,,but you sure as fuck come across as the “Butch” type.

      you and your wee gang should either set up a Nicola Sturgeon fan club site, where you can hound away until your heart’s content, or shut up and stop acting like gatekeepers to a site that isn’t interested in the shite you post.

    166. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers Cat @ 8.36
      Thank you for saying something… That’s very decent of you. It’s so upsetting to wake up to such an unnecessary and personal attack.

    167. Old Pete says:

      Covid related deaths in England are sitting at almost 1,000 per million. This is the worst, the absolute worst in the whole world.
      As regards Nicola Sturgeon, you might hate her as many who write here do and like most of the anti Scot pro UK supporters do but she does come across as a very competent leader.
      As regarding MP’s competence, I live in Prestwick our MP is Philippa Whitford a most competent and hardworking person that you could ever want to represent you.
      We need to be united to gain our Independence, reading opinions on this site then it would appear Independence saving us from English hegemony under the privileged Tories is a long way off.

    168. Breeks says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      3 June, 2020 at 8:18 am
      It is NOT a UDI which Scotland needs. It is a UN Constitutional Tribunal or test case

      ur dreaming if you think the un will back scotland over wm, one of the 5 permanent members…

      Not so long ago, the Chagos islanders were dreaming too, and they didn’t have an internationally ratified sovereign constitution underpinning their legal test case.

      Enjoy the reply. It’s the last one you’ll ever get from me. You’re on the Nobody List now.

    169. TEHRAN: Iran on Tuesday lamented that people were ignoring social distancing rules as it reported more than 3,000 new coronavirus infections in a second cresting wave.

      “The fact that people have become completely careless regarding this disease” was of great concern, said Health Minister Saeed Namaki.

    170. Joe says:


      I understand frustration and not above venting it but tone it down. I know what its like – the progressive Scottish Indy bubble of righteous ignorance. Your not doing anyone anyone any favours just now though. Drop the English hatred also, if not for decency and sense then for WOS who provides a nearly open platform

    171. Joe says:

      RE: 2nd wave

      Yes a second wave was always coming. It will be pushed harder than the 1st. This will initiate the shaming/silencing of dissenting voices, social control and draconian laws. Those of you who ‘get it’ need to be speaking truth to family and friends

    172. Joe says:

      I go through 1 to 2 hours of industry news daily and I see the narrative. They are pushing the ‘New Normal’ and are repeating constantly that ‘things have changed forever’. Big companies have prepared themselves to push cashless society, tracking of populations and health tyranny. Unless enough people get real on this you will be living in a corporate tyranny enabled by a mild virus

    173. Liz g says:

      Old Pete @ 9.04
      Don’t let the buggers get ye down Pete….if Indy wasn’t on the table there wouldn’t be so many rockin up on here to try to spoil things.

      From the other side of the coin….There’s plenty of us, all across Scotland with ideas and plans about how best to go for Indy and that’s a good place to be….

      As I’ve said before, sometimes I think it’s no such a bad thing that we lost in 2014….
      because there was a good chance we would have been all locked in to a separation arrangement that would have been a ” mini me Westminster ” before we stopped partying!
      We’ve had these last few years not just to organise ourselves to be good to go into a campaign at short notice….but also to to form a vision of what we want to achieve after that Yes vote is in and to have everything we said about Westminster in 2014 very publicly confirmed…… some would call everyone chipping in passionately argument.. I don’t.
      As for the nasty one’s well at the end of the day I suppose they are really just noise…cause their never ever going to get their way, not any more. Because the one thing we are all absolutely united on is Indepence. 🙂

    174. Sinky says:

      Murdo “Queens XI” Fraser in Hootsman on about Scotland facing disaster if it wasn’t for the broad shoulders etc.

      Finland has announced a support package worth some 15 billion euros to try and support businesses and individuals as the economy enters a downturn.

      The broad range of measures announced on Friday aim to assist people and businesses suffering from the financial downturn as the coronavirus pandemic strengthens its grip on the world.

      The government says the measures amount to some 15 billion euros in support, with some allocated to loan guarantees and some to labour market support.

      The package of measures is expected to radically increase state debt in Finland, but Prime Minister Sanna Marin said that was a secondary consideration.

      “We are not thinking primarily of how much additional debt the state will have to take on,” said Marin.

      Finance Minister Katri Kulmuni added that once the crisis is over, Finland will have to focus on repairing the state finances.

      Some 10 billion euros is to be allocated to the Finnish state’s financing arm Finnvera in order to prop up businesses as the crisis continues.

      Minister for Employment and Economic Affairs Mika Lintilä said that businesses should in the first instance contact their bank to ask for support, with Finnvera guaranteeing the loan.

      In addition, ministers in Helsinki announced they would shorten the notice period for temporary lay-offs from fourteen to five days, saving firms salary costs as they cut back.

      Workers laid off can claim income-linked benefits, provided they are a member of an unemployment fund through their trade union or independently.

      In addition, the government will eliminate the waiting period before people can claim unemployment benefits, and allow freelancers and sole traders to claim unemployment benefits without shutting down their businesses.

      Forecasts for economic growth in Finland have been slashed this week, with the Bank of Finland predicting that GDP will fall by between 1.5 and 4 percent in 2020.

    175. Bob Mack says:

      @Millenium @Joe,

      Are you father and son? The Garnetts at home .Morning Alf.

    176. Dan says:


      Re. 2nd Wave

      As I understand it with no vaccine (even if folk would want to take such a rushly developed serum without there being any long term studies as to possible side effects) there are always going to be waves of further infections and deaths.
      Lockdowns are not a wonder cure, but are merely an attempt to manage the burden on the health services in coping with the magnitude of those needing treatment during each wave.

      There’s being alive and being Alive, just because one has a pulse doesn’t mean one is actually living if that life has become a miserable and unsustainable existence where you are not allowed to carry out activities in a safe manner because the law states we are to be restricted to cope with the behaviour of the dumbest.
      The police could arrest the dumbest when they err but they don’t because reasons… which then brings the whole concept into question of abiding by laws if they are selectively applied, and judicial precedent such as we see in other areas such as contempt of court charges.

    177. Republicofscotland says:

      Western Isles MP Angus MacNeil and Inverclyde Councillor Chris McEleny want SNP chiefs to be forced to implement a Plan B at the next SNP conference which will be a virtual one in the Autumn. The pair want a pro-indy majority at next years Scottish elections to be used as grounds to start negotiations with Westminster to leave the union.

      We must get behind this plan and the SNP heirarchy must be compelled to implement this plan, if not we must make public our anger through demonstrations and in indy marches.

    178. schrodingers cat says:


      the Chagos islanders!!!!


      count me out of yer cunning plan

    179. Republicofscotland says:

      So Scottish MPs were locked out yesterday as Westminster for the most part stopped virtual appearances, and the infamous conga received ridicule from all sides as well.

      I want Scottish MPs out of Westminster for good, they serve no real purpose their other than to give the appearance that Scotland is being represented in a democratic fashion, when it isn’t. Playing by a foreign governments rules in its parliament by our Scottish politicians only adds weight to this foreign parliaments rules and it must be halted sooner than later.

      Our SNP MPs should not take their seats, to show clearly that a foreign country’s parliament does not hold any kind of sovereignty over Scotland and it’s people. We’ve been forced to play this Westminster game for over 300 years its high time we ended it for the sake of Scotland and it’s people.

    180. J Galt says:

      Joe you are wasting your breath with most on here.

      Aldous Huxley warned –

      “The perfect dictatorship will have the appearance of a democracy”

      “through consumption and entertainment the slaves would love their servitudes”.

      Well it’s very largely here and the “slaves” don’t like to have their illusions pricked!

      As I think old Oscar said “If you are going to tell people the truth make them laugh, otherwise they’ll kill you!

      This is now very obviously a social control event/economic reset operation – there is no need for the functionaries ie the politicians to know the whole story or even any of it – they just know instinctively to go along with it – at that level ignorance is rewarded generously.

    181. Liz g says:

      Dan @ 9.51
      That was my understanding too…the lockdown is to keep the virus at levels our NHS can cope with.
      And the Louisa Jordan is for any over spill,and we needed time to get it ready.I
      That it is going to be around for a while and is not fatal to most never was a secret….so where this dystopian view that it can be used as a social control to create a complaint population gets seeded into the discourse is bizarre!

    182. Joe says:

      @ Dan

      Have you read any of the official statistics ive posted here from the CDC and official statistical sites?

      What is it about the CDC report of an estimated 0.3% death rate of those who are symptomatic that you disagree with?

      What is it you don’t find funny about Sweden and Japan having no lockdown but not being appreciably more affected than us?

      What is it about the medical officers of many countries using cheap drugs to successfully treat and contain the virus that you don’t accept?

      Here’s an idea – lets all shut down the economy indefinitely which will harm the small folk much more than the big companies, put our lives in the hands of big pharma, bend over to our rights being stripped from us all because not enough people can actually genuinely fucking THINK.

      But that’s the Scottish Indy folk now. I have a good idea – lets make ourselves feel better and talk about how unfair Westminster is and how good it will be when the SNP secures us that Indy vote instead eh? Just one more mandate apparently.

    183. Joe says:

      ‘so where this dystopian view that it can be used as a social control to create a complaint population gets seeded into the discourse is bizarre!’

      So, eh, people being made into prisoners in their own homes while they (and the country) slowly go broke isn’t social control? All while doctors over the world are screaming out that cheap drugs are containing the virus and several 1st world countries haven’t even locked down? While people who could have life threatening illnesses avoid hospital diagnosis for months?

      That’s not to mention the ‘track and trace’ apps on phones that will be mandatory to enter a shop and buy anything (watch for it coming). Nor the mandatory imposition of hastily made vaccines that will heavily benefit the big money.

      What would be social control to you? When there’s literally a chain around your throat?

      Liz have you heard of China’s Social Credit system? You should really look it up.

    184. Joe says:

      China’s social credit system

      Click on and enlarge the graphic to read it. Its worth it.

      21st century tyranny. What is it that could make Westerners accept such a system? I wonder…

    185. Liz g says:

      RepublicofScotland @ 10.17
      That’s one I’m a bit conflicted on, to be honest.
      I can’t disagree with all those ( and there are many ) calling for the SNP MPs to stay away from Westminster.

      I’ve even said myself that they should set up in Holyrood and Broadcast on Holyrood TV their own debates on reserved issues….
      Mainly because that would really spook Westminster,and they wouldn’t like it one bit.

      But…here’s the thing..
      Currently Westminster have all the controls and they might just use the opportunity to sneak stuff into legislation that the Scottish MPs don’t get to hear about…. so there is an argument that they do need to be there to a least be able to tell us what that lot are up to…

    186. Al-Stuart says:


      Many thanks for the correction.

      Mea Culpa.

      It has been a difficult few days. A family member has been tested for Covid-19. We are all a wee bit worried as he is in the vulnerable shielded group.

      You are of course absolutely correct. It was 22 police officers who solicited 400 “witnesses” in their dubious efforts to frame the former First Minister in one of the worst examples of a fit-up I have ever seen.

      It is reassuring that we both see this and so do many others.

      What amazes me is the main stream media are prepared to flog the Danny Gravilli carp, but at the same time the MSM seem to be protecting Nicola Sturgeon, or at least giving the Sturgeonite cabal currently leading the Scottish Government an easy ride?

      Once Covid-19 has a vaccine and/or (HIV) style of medication pack and we have some normality, then the sooner Alex Salmond publishes the facts of what was done to him by COPFS and government 77th Brigade plants and sleepers the better.

      I don’t think the poor, deluded Sturgeonites realise they have the equivalent of a Tony Blair/New Labour political tsunami headed this way. Just look at the legacy and reputation of world leader Tony Blair. He has the political clap and is shunned to a pitiful degree. That is what awaits Nicola Sturgeon when the truth is exposed.

      When New Labour got it so very wrong they have been put out of office for what Stu Campbell reckons will be decades.

      The ascendancy of the SNP after Alex Salmond handed the Leadership to Nicola Massey Ferguson Sturgeon was remarkable and massive.

      Sadly political tides rise and fall. I really hope Nicola has not buggered the SNP and IndyRef2 for the next 25 years as per her instructions from London.


      Gfaetheblock writes…

      Gfaetheblock says:
      2 June, 2020 at 10:53 pm

      Al Stuart,

      You are getting confused re 400 police, which makes no logical sense. I don’t know if the below is true, but more believable.

      “A 22 person team from Police Scotland worked for over a year identifying and interviewing almost 400 hoped-for complainants and witnesses against Alex Salmond. This resulted in nil charges and nil witnesses. Nil.” Craig Murray

    187. Pete says:

      Just a so- called visit from brother in law handing in some flour for my wife.
      Couldn’t meet a nicer fellow but he’s completely indoctrinated with all the Sturgeon nonsense.
      He wouldn’t come in, adhered to the 6 feet distancing rules, had plastic gloves to hand over the flour and wipes for cleansing afterwards.
      This was his first outage since the start of the scare and he ‘finds it strange’
      Gee whiz – what have we created?
      A totally cowed population in thrall to the ravings and diktats of tinpot politicians who delight in wielding control over a zombiefied population who are unable to think for themselves.
      Will this ever end?

    188. Ron Maclean says:

      ‘As some day it may happen that a victim must be found
      I’ve got a little list – I’ve got a little list
      Of society offenders who might well be underground
      And who never would be missed – who never would be missed!’
      The Mikado

    189. jfngw says:

      @shug 10:49pm

      If you wanted an example of BBC Scotland propaganda dressed up as news then there is no better example. Hiding the fact that another MP from an English constituency is added to the Scottish Office, what could be more newspeak for the UK gov.

    190. Bob Mack says:


      Democracy is social control. We voluntarily give politicians our vote every five years to represent us. They are given power to make decisions by people like you and me.

      Regardless of bad decisions made we do exactly the same again at the next election. Trying something different would be disaster in all probability.

      Perhaps there is nobody in your life you feel you need to protect, not even yourself from Covid.

      My daughters who work in the field tell me it’s dreadful looking after victims, and that people have no concept of the after effects left on people probably for life.

      Being discharged from hospital does not mean you have overcome all the effects. They are patients of the future.

      Sorry Joe, but you have the blase manner of one who has nothing directly to do with the illness, but perhaps has the dime thin confidence of one who has not caught it yet.

      I sincerely hope you dont.

    191. Joe says:


      To be honest Pete I fear that too many people will only click when its too late to disagree.

    192. Republicofscotland says:


      I understand them sneaking in legislation, I was thinking more along the lines of removing our MPs as a first sign of removing the legitimacy of Westminster, a foreign countrys parliament over Scotland. Decreeing acts against each other countries is how the union began, and disobedience and non compliance will surely be how it ends.

      It’s in the link.

      If there’s no move towards indy next year with a pro-indy majority or Westminster simply ignores it then that must be our path out of this union.

    193. Joe says:

      @Bob Mack

      Trying to conflate lockdown of economy and social tracking with democratic exercise of voting? I could say ‘nice try’ but that would be a lie.

    194. Gfaetheblock says:

      Al stuart

      Hope the tests come back negative.

    195. schrodingers cat says:

      I can’t disagree with all those ( and there are many ) calling for the SNP MPs to stay away from Westminster.

      the end point for all of us is surely, once we are indy, watching all scots mps walking out of the hoc. In my mind, the last thing ian blackford does is throw a union jack without the saltire onto the dispatch box as a parting gift 🙂

      the question here tho’ is does walking out, in a show of defiance, before we become indy, serve to further and bring us closer to indy?

      i think it does, temporary walk outs have in the past been effective in highlighting the duplicity of the other wm mps,

      a full scale walk out for good is also an option but we should remember this nuclear option is a use once only tactic. the electoral arithmetic in wm is such that we dont really have any power, but even i minor rebellion by tory mps if an when a s30 bill is brought forward could lose due to the lack of snp mps votes

      also, it would remove our voice completely in wm. the unionists might be very happy. the lack of sinn fein voices in wm doesnt bother them in slightest. on the contrary.

      any final walk out should be stage managed for maximum effect, with only 4 snp mps in wm at the moment it would be a bit of a damp squib. better to wait until they all return

      after saying that, a temporary walk out might be a good idea in protest again the suspension of the virtual parlaiment. i dont think it is very popular with any mps. id like to see jrm getting told to sling his hook

    196. Bob Mack says:


      Your vote has helped put these people in power Joe. You have picked someone who you feel would be good in charge. We all do. We let them decide for us. Our choice.

      Now when it doesn’t suit you,it becomes anti democratic
      Unless of course you don’t vote either.I

    197. Ron Maclean says:

      Small pandemic – not many dead?

    198. Pete says:

      Bob Mack
      I hear what you say about your daughters working in the field but the same could be said for folks suffering from a variety of cancers, heart disease, you name it. They all carry after effects.
      The UK has a Covid death rate of 0.05% (no doubt I will be corrected) which is infinitesimal and definitely not worth wrecking the economy for and the education of our children.
      I just don’t get it!

    199. Republicofscotland says:

      This shows the utter contempt that Westminster a foreign countrys parliament has for Scots as Boris Johnson appoints a Milton Keynes MP Ian Stewart as a new Minster at the Scotland Office.

      Again we shouldn’t be recognising the Scotland office as having any legitimacy, it’s not in our best interests to do so. It’s basically a department set up to spy on and keep tabs on Scotland. If England’s government wants to communicate with Scotland’s government they should do so directly as one country to another, we need to start acting as an independent country first.

    200. Breeks says:

      Republicofscotland says:
      3 June, 2020 at 9:56 am

      ….We must get behind this plan and the SNP heirarchy must be compelled to implement this plan, if not we must make public our anger through demonstrations and in indy marches.

      I want to, I really do. The problem I have doing so is that Plan B is only fractionally less tepid than the SNP’s lukewarm and stagnant Plan A. The Plan B debacle looks to me like an unseemly domestic squabble over a Party policy, but it’s tinkering with a moribund Party Policy which has lost it’s bite and all direction, and is currently years off the pace.

      I feel exactly the same way about the ongoing legal case to determine the Section 30 relevance to a referendum. I back it, yes, of course I do, but in the same breath, I despair at it’s lack of ambition. The principle which determines Scotland’s right to hold a referendum is the SAME principle of sovereignty which would defend Scotland’s Constitution and set it’s legitimacy upheld. Why, why, why, must we be so myopic and unambiguous all the time, in every thing we do??? Why must we forever aim so low? We’ll settle for a referendum when we could cut to the chase and take back our Nation??? Sorry. I need help to see any logic in that.

      When Joanna Cherry established, in law, that Article 50 could be revoked, and later, established that Boris could not arbitrarily prorogue the Westminster Parliament, she WON! She won TWICE! She proved she wasn’t firing blanks, but the bullets in her gun drew their strength and potency from Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution; a nation’s Constitution which demonstrably co-exists despite the United Kingdom Union.

      We HAVE precedent; modern, up to date precedent, where the UK Union’s rule was curtailed by the potency of Scotland’s lawful Constitution. So why friends, why, why, why, will use that potency to determine something trivial like whether or not Boris can prorogue Westminster, but when it comes to something major, like the unconstitutional, undemocratic, colonial subjugation of Scotland’s sovereign will and forced removal from Europe, suddenly we have no stomach for a fight, and we simply stand back and allow it to happen? …. I am lost for words.

      We have victory within our grasp, – Scotland’s deliverance from this accursed Union, continuity of our tranquil refuge inside the European Union, and all we have to do to ‘collect’ is defend the defining principle of Scotland’s constitution. We must convince the International Community that Scotland IS a Nation with the Constitutional Rights of a Nation, but a Nation currently facing imminent subjugation and unlawful curtailment of those rights, with the will of a foreign Nation being forced upon the sovereign population by a colonial aggressor and usurper. That is EXACTLY what is happening!

      Yet how do we react in such imminent danger? We huddle round the campfire, and shadow-box with referendum strategy, which may or may not happen two or three years down the line. We are plotting a campaign strategy which takes no account of the imminent battle which will deliver our decisive defeat.

      The British Nationalists are about take away Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty, and do it with greater ease than taking candy from a baby because we Scot’s don’t even have the self-belief it takes to defend ourselves. We dream of being a nation again, but it will never be anything more than a dream if we continue to act as if we are livestock in a field.

      Joanna Cherry has twice shown us the way. She has twice built a Constitutional maquette, proof of concept twice delivered, that Scotland’s Constitution is robust and sound, and will prevail. No more dry runs. It is now time for the main event, and the Constitutional Standoff over Scotland’s unlawful Brexit taken to the UN.

    201. Bob Mack says:


      I’ll tell you what Pete. If there is no second wave of Covid,then I will buy you a bottle of your drink of choice.

      I stand by the prediction ,like the WHO, that without a vaccine, come Autumn we will have another spike like the last. Perhaps worse.

      England will tell the take shortly.

    202. Liz g says:

      Joe @ 10.29 & 10.29
      ( Caveat: this discussion ends if you start your playground pish..understood ?)

      Firstly,prisoners in their own home is quite a leap,the lockdown was easily ignored by those who had a mind to!

      We were asked to follow guidance, ( the legislative back up for which is reviewed every 3 month’s ) it was explained that the aim was to “flatten the curve” and it obviously needed our cooperation to work.
      Flattening the curve has no effect on the virus,it was the potential survivors of the virus who would be in the majority that were being asked to buy the government’s some time to get their shit together..

      Yes Sweden ect didn’t lockdown and the death rates so far are as near as makes no difference.
      But their demographic, geography and health care systems were probably robust enough to justify taking that route.

      Westminster was reluctant to lock down and it’s very much looking like they only did so because the carnage that would have made obvious exactly what they’d reduced the health care to these last few year’s was too big a political risk ( and I suspect especially for London ) so they went with it.
      They… to an extent understandably ….had to ramp up the fear of the virus to get the public compliance,but they need us to work..and that’s when most will work out for themselves the true risks of it.

      Do I think Westminster, Holyrood and all the other government’s will try and leverage some form of advantage over the population from this?
      Of course I do…that’s a play book as auld as Methuselah…but not to the hysterical extent that some claim,although it will take watching.

      As to the China social credit I haven’t particularly looked but, I have read of the dangers of a cashless society and take it very seriously..
      And being descended from mining families,with an understanding of how and why the CO-OPs were formed….I’ve a grasp on what you are getting at…..soo
      Calm doon think of yer health….

    203. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers Cat @ 10.53
      So very good points…and I can’t wait for the final walk out either :-).
      My thoughts about setting up in Holyrood was I thought the middle ground.
      It showed Westminster couldn’t call all the shots but also would create such a stir they would mini have backed down from preventing the virtual parliament.
      But it would also make one hell of a statement in Scotland without a walk out only to leave them get things their own way or have to go back even to organise our termination of the union …potentially a win win and with style,but naw they sadly aren’t that creative…..

    204. Bob Mack says:


      I agree. We have become far too compliant at Westminster and indeed at Holyrood. We should be heightened means at our disposal to shame them to the core rather than meekly obeying the rules they set down.

      Watching all the news coverage in America, it strikes me that many people are asking the Black Americans what should be done to eradicate racism. Instead of asking the white population why they are doing it.

      The similarities between that and England and Scotland are striking . Yes we are part of the UK, but we are regularly treated badly and not by physical violence, but by allowing ourselves to be demeaned time and time again in Westminster and by the media.

      The cringe was cultivated exactly for that purpose. Over two centuries of being treated as the dependent relative to a generous benefactor. We must change..

    205. CameronB Brodie says:

      I find education to be the perfect cure for ignorance. 😉

      Mapping the Issues: Public Health, Law and Ethics

    206. CameronB Brodie says:

      IMHO, Scotland needs a party that is prepared to defend the rule-of-law, so no playing at British constitutionalism, which separates Scotland from international law.

      “Bread and Roses”: Economic Justice and Constitutional Rights

    207. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi LizG.

      Look at the map of ‘excess deaths’ here:-

    208. callmedave says:


      My supermarket shop is busy today, queue to get in and queue 20 mins to get out there.

      Dovering this morning around 07:00am half dreaming, dipping into radio shortbread, mostly about America and hornet bees darn Sarf when I heard the short leader intro to news…

      FM to be questioned at Holyrood

      a wee while later

      FM to be scrutinised today at Holyrood

      and again before 08:00hrs

      FM to be closely scrutinised at Holyrood today and big Brian muttering about the consensus being broken and the gloves are off kinda thing…Aye.

      Reminded me a bit of a bit in ‘A few good men’

      Tom Cruise
      “Your honour I object”… “your honour I strongly object”

      Anyhoo! I knew then I should get up and face the day which got a bit worse when I saw that OTT post up the thread.

      Cheered up though when I saw this headline on big Auntie’s website before going to the shops.

      Labour urges PM to stop ‘winging it’ over easing restrictions 🙂

      England’s ‘world-beating’ test and trace system fails to trace 70% of contacts

      I wonder how ours is doing?

    209. liz says:

      Glad Stewart McD voted with the SNP, someone mischief making on SM.

      The thing is I believed it, goes to show how I no longer trust him to do the right thing.

      IMO Joanna Cherry is now our only hope. NS is compromised, I don’t believe she is a plant as some suggested, but I now realise she doesn’t like conflict.
      She won’t fight against WM, she thinks being nice is going to work and she’s surrounded herself with a lot of nice but dim people.

    210. Joe says:


      We appear to be living in alternate realities Liz:

      ‘Firstly,prisoners in their own home is quite a leap,the lockdown was easily ignored by those who had a mind to!’

      So people weren’t being harassed by police and even being arrested for ‘breaking lockdown’ rules?

      ‘Yes Sweden ect didn’t lockdown and the death rates so far are as near as makes no difference.
      But their demographic, geography and health care systems were probably robust enough to justify taking that route.’

      And Japan? Tokyo is one of the largest cities on earth. What about India? Turkey? What about all the 3rd world countries that have massive populations but minimal covid 19 effects?

      No playground pish here. Just facts.

    211. Dan says:

      I think you may have misinterpreted where I was coming from, as I am skeptical of the creeping authoritarian control being rolled out over this.
      Death numbers are not death rates if we don’t know how many folk have actually had the virus to make that calculation, because the testing here in absolutely no way identifies all the past and current infected numbers.
      IIRC a week or so back Spain carried out general sampling of 60k of the general population to see how many had antibodies in their system with a view to finding out how far they were on the journey to the fabled Herd Immunity. They had hoped the figure might be near 20% but in reality it was around 5%.
      Searched and the found article. Wayback archive doesn’t seem to like it so direct link.

      So it looks like we have a fair way to go on this and managing the situation so the health services can cope is really all we can do.
      The reality is there will inevitably be more deaths as unfortunate as that is. If we have no Covid deaths then all that means is we are delaying an inevitability, unless of course we give up our freedoms to live in isolation for the remainder of our lives.
      I guess some folk are so invested in keeping their coagulation of stardust together for as long as possible, that they are prepared to sacrifice any feelings of liberty and pleasure to do so.
      If meeting a partner and screwing is on the way to being banned them humanity as we know it is fucked anyway, and that will be down to those that have pulled up the drawbridge to protect their lives and existences at the expense of others struggling to achieve a similar position of life contentment.

    212. J Galt says:

      Bob Mack@11.10

      So you are prophesying that we’ll have a winter virus again this winter – that’s a fairly safe bet – we always have a winter virus/viruses.

      Sometimes they are severe in their impact – such as this year, and some years they are very severe in their impact such as in 2017/18 – 2.5m fatalities world wide.

    213. Dan says:

      Extract from the following link

      Measures that will come into force in Phase 1 include:

      From tomorrow (29 May), one household can now meet up with another outdoors. This can be in one household’s garden, but physical distancing is still required. It is expected households will only meet one other household within the same day and up to a recommended maximum of eight people in the overall group.

      There is no distance specified in the above paragraph relating to how far one can travel to meet another household, yet a following paragraph relating to exercise states 5 miles is the suggested limit for that activity.
      Why is there ambiguity in the stated measures that could easily lead to folk finding themselves on the wrong side of the law depending on the whims of those that enforce it.
      EG. If you haven’t seen all your family members for nearly 6 months and they stay over 100 miles away? Is it cool to travel or might you be getting stopped and fined?

    214. Bob Mack says:

      @J Gault

      Autumn, not winter. and it’s the WHO who are the orophets.

    215. CameronB Brodie says:

      Justice is impossible to achieve and so unavailable to Scotland under English Torydum and contemporary British constitutionalism. ;(

      Global Health Justice

    216. Capella says:

      Re China’s Digital Social Control System. The Western “democracies” have been doing this for decades. Every keystroke, phone call, photo, purchase or chat you make is permanently stored for the Five Eyes countries. Edward Snowdon ( and other) blew the whistle years ago.

      If you want to have a paranoid conspiracy theory at least make it a real one that affects us all here and now.

    217. CameronB Brodie says:

      I want a political party to defend my economic, social, and cultural rights, which would also require them to defend my rights to health and development. I thought that was the SNP, but the current leadership clearly feels they are above the law.

      Health and justice: The capability to be healthy

    218. Capella says:

      @ Dan – the 5 mile limit is not law. It is a suggested range which is loose enough to stretch within reason. If people abuse it then the SG reserves the right to make it law and therefore enforceable.

    219. Joe says:

      Every one of us will be faced with a near permanent loss of liberties, health sovereignty and privacy with the implementation of tracking ‘for our own good’.

      The economy will be in tatters (while big business still runs funnily enough) and many of us with the choice of looking for a government job (which will ultimately enforce the paradigm) or subsisting on hand outs.

      All based on a virus whose apparent deadly effects are contradicted by official organizations such as the CDC, many professionals in the field, practicing doctors worldwide, the health policies of several 1st world countries and several developing nations, the official statistics of infection rates (3rd world v 1st world).

      Not to mention the inherent conflict of interest of the vaccine industry being involved in the hard-pushed solution while cheap drugs that world leaders (including the US, the local government in Shanghai, Turkey, India among others) have already been using and have been around for decades.

      The biggest pushers of which happen to be the mainstream media (the same ones that tried hard to sell you several illegal wars and denegrate Scottish people at every opportunity) and several international organisations who seem to be very closely aligned to the narrative of big industries and the CCP in China.

      If it wasn’t for recent events that we have seen in Scotland such as the denial of science to push radical left agendas (trans), the absolute perversion that is the proposed hate speech laws and what WOSScotland has been pointing out about the absolute tyrannical and illegal farce that our courts have become id be less inclined to worry.

      I have the facts on my side. Its all laid out in front of you to see. Ive been right about every single piece of shit policy and political outcome ive warned about for the last 3 years (2 approx on this site). Its just a pity they didn’t get round to pushing normalcy for pedophilia before now or id have that to back me up too. Which is coming by the way once they can turn off your ability to use digital payments for a violation of the social credit system (or whatever they want to call our version of it). If you paid attention you’d see paypal and visa already blocked payments for conservatives who protested certain things, ruining online businesses.

      At some point you are all going to be faced with undeniable reality. I just hope when that time comes you have much more balls than foresight or you and your family and friends will be living in a corporate tyranny for the foreseeable future.

    220. Joe says:


      ‘Western democracies’ have been quietly pushing in the Chinese direction for years now as you have just said. They are about to make it not so quiet.

      This is exactly what im talking about. Its what Snowden and Assange were talking about.

      How can it be a paranoid conspiracy when its ACTUALLY HAPPENING in real time?

    221. Republicofscotland says:

      Breeks@ 11.09am.

      I feel your pain there in that comment, pain and frustration over the centuries old saga of how we exit this forced union.

      It certainly won’t be through any court that we exit this union, nor any unicorn imaginary gold standard that Sturgeon desires. No we’ll exit this terrible union the same way we entered into it, by cunning by disobedience, by acting firstly as an independent nation, by ignoring Westminster time after time and focusing our energies on the international community.

      Let Westminster send in the army and dissolve Holyrood, I almost pray on a daily basis that they do, for at least it would show that we’re not acting in a compliant manner. Let the international community see that we’re being oppressed as the English army quells our streets as they did in Ireland for England will never let us go willingly.

      I see the MacNeil/McEleny Plan B as at the very least people trying to force the issue, and that must be looked upon as a step in the right direction.

      As some have rightly pointed out even if we kowtow to a foreign governments parliament why would they ever agree to a second indyref, and could we ever begin to believe that, that foreign country wouldn’t interfere with the process on holding it and tampering with the outcome as it has done in many other countries and as it must surely have done in 2014.

      The only way this foreign country’s parliament would agree to the indyref process is if we became so unmanageable (yes that’s what we’ve allowed ourselves to become, a foreign country’s assets that’s managed on a daily basis, like a herd of cows or a flock of sheep) and afraid that we took our independence before they could give the nod to a fixed indyref.

    222. CameronB Brodie says:

      Lack of knowledge and understanding propagates fear. Just saying.

      Quarantine, isolation and the duty of easy rescue in public health

      We address the issue of whether, why and under what conditions, quarantine and isolation are morally justified, with a particular focus on measures implemented in the developing world. We argue that the benefits of quarantine and isolation justify some level of coercion or compulsion by the state, but that the state should be able to provide the strongest justification possible for implementing such measures.

      While a constrained form of consequentialism might provide a justification for such public health interventions, we argue that a stronger justification is provided by a principle of State Enforced Easy Rescue: a state may permissibly compel individuals to engage in activities that entail a small cost to them but a large benefit to others, because individuals have a moral duty of easy rescue to engage in those activities.

      The principle of State Enforced Easy Rescue gives rise to an Obligation Enforcement Requirement: the state should create the conditions such that submitting to coercive or compulsive measures becomes a fundamental moral duty of individuals, i.e. a duty of easy rescue. When the state can create such conditions, it has the strongest justification possible for implementing coercive or compulsive measures, because individuals have a moral duty to temporarily relinquish the rights that such measures would infringe.

      Our argument has significant implications for how public health emergencies in the developing world should be tackled. Where isolation and quarantine measures are necessary, states or the international community have a moral obligation to provide certain benefits to those quarantined or isolated.

    223. Bob Mack says:

      Corporate tyranny is not new. It’s been around for centuries and we still function. What’s more corporate tyranny than shipping millions of innocents across the globe to work in your fields and factories as bought slave labour.I

      Miners ,yarn mills, Highland clearances. East India company etc.

      You speak as if it’s something that’s only just arrived.

    224. Capella says:

      Because “just because you are paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you”.

    225. Liz g says:

      Joe @ 11.48
      It’s still apples and oranges Joe
      Some of the countries will have better health to start with,some will have better health care, ( it could be argued a city, although crowed , would have better access to health care than the Highlands and islands all else being equal which it clearly isn’t) and others no political consequences for not providing health care or any expectation of health care. Up to and including recording deaths that resulted from an illness specifying which ilness…

      Then it would also be disingenuous to argue that Governments will plot to enslave their population’s to Corporations on the one hand and that they are at the same time being trust worthy with their figures in the other…even our own governments aren’t all that trust worthy over figures…. so again it’s comparing apples and oranges….
      As to the police harassing some over the lockdown rules….the police can harass people over any rules especially the one’s current in fashion…. “go home there’s a virus about” is, IMHO,much less intrusive than stop and search, and a fine for breaking these rules much less of an insult and a good deal less controlling behaviour that dog shit fines!
      It’s no our realities that are in dispute here Joe it’s your analytical ablities….. the numbers won’t reveal everything

    226. J Galt says:

      Bob Mack@12.01

      Evidence is emerging – particularly in France and Italy that this current winter virus was starting up there in November and possibly even in October – so Autumn.

    227. Ottomanboi says:

      We never learn…
      Not mandatory except in…….
      Zoom, the latest Corona boy’s toy, and its China links.
      Tik Tok, Tik Tok……goes the smart totalitarian clock.
      What began with a ‘virus’, could end in mass popular revolt.
      Bring it on!

    228. Liz g says:

      Capella @ 12.27
      That’s true…. fae the little people wi their little lists,
      ( Apparently we’re list buddies by the way 🙂 )
      to the rise of Google and it’s mysterious uses…but here’s the thing….this virus runs a real risk of affecting the push Globalisation and thus the power of the Corporations.
      Should any virus run far to far out of control people will start to look to be self sufficient and demand their governments attend to it…..
      We’re very susceptible to tribal behaviour and it would no take much for a fortress mentality to take root…..otherwise the Corporations would have turned to virus control with manufactured outbreaks years ago… 🙂

    229. Bob Mack says:

      @J Galt,

      Sigh!! Ok have it your way.September and October are now officially winter where you live.

    230. CameronB Brodie says:

      This current health crises weakens the impetus of globalisation and challenges global neo-liberalism. Which is nice. 🙂

      Out of the Belly of Hell: COVID-19 and the humanisation of globalisation

      It turns out we did change the world. And we must keep changing it.

      ….In my country our leaders got both calls wrong. They failed to take the coronavirus seriously when it first arrived and are now unable to provide reassurance. It means that trying to respond in a clear-headed way to its impact, here in England, is unsettled by the unavoidable presence of a prime minister who lacks every virtue except audacity and ambition. He counteracts his emotional void with a calculated ebullience and the recruitment of smart advisors whose messaging he follows, as he flees serious questioning and the human engagement this demands.

      On 28 February he was asked during a BBC interview about the death of a British citizen from COVID-19 and insisted the advice was to “wash your hands” and that the NHS was fully prepared. The first time he set out to address the wider public about the advent of COVID-19, on 5 March, he revealed an almost alien lack of empathy. On a popular breakfast television show he told his two startled hosts, “Perhaps you could take it on the chin, take it all in one go and allow coronavirus to move through the population without really taking as many draconian measures”. It’s well worth watching. He described this as “a theory” about how best to respond. But he did it with enthusiasm, oozed reassurance, delighted in shaking hands, and insisted that for most it is only “a mild to moderate illness”….

    231. robertknight says:

      Plan B.

      A few have brought up the subject of Plan B, in as much as what is it, exactly? We know Plan A is to drop on one knee and ask the benevolent Westminster Govt. to let the democratically elected Government of Scotland ask the electorate a question about our existing constitutional settlement.

      We also know we’ll no doubt be told by the same benevolent Westminster Govt. to go and piss up a rope, or words to that effect. No debate there. (Unless Cummings follows a bit of parliamentary chicanery I’ve outlined previously re. a free vote).

      But in watching Sturgeon’s eve of Brexit placation of Boris once again, I noticed that during her schoolmarm lecture to the Yes movement from around 7:30 in, she actually mentions Plan B at 9:45.


      Should Plan A fall, which it effectively did when T May said “now is not the time”, Plan B consists of testing in court the holding of a non-legally binding “Consultative Referendum” on the issue, which given its constitutional nature, may be proved to be beyond the scope of Holyrood. Holyrood might have the ability to ask the electorate whether the official colour of our national flag should be Pantone 300 or Pantone 280, for example, but not whether we agree to a repeal of the Act of Union.

      NS states that the outcome of any Consultative Referendum would have to be subject to agreement (with WM) so yet again she has painted us all into a corner where WM, not Scotland, determines our future.

      Genius, don’t you think?

      Plan C anyone?

    232. CameronB Brodie says:

      You only delete the characters preceding the www. 😉

      #BrexitDay : Scotland’s First Minister Nicola Sturgeon speaks

    233. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’ve posted an article on covid from the perspective of “Realist” international relations, so here’s a more general view.

      What International Relations Tells Us about COVID-19

    234. robbo says:


      Is this the kind of things you’re good at predicting JOE?

      Would you like for us all? I’ve no idea what your politics is man, you’re all over the place. Are you right,left,fascist,commie or just an allround scatter brain conspiracy theorist ?

      I’ve no bloody idea what you are.

    235. callmedave says:

      Bit of a ‘sledging’ in Holyrood for the FM there on all things related to care homes as the two main opposition leaders pile in.

      Turning the other cheek and setting out the SGov case is not cutting any ice with them that have 20-20 vision now but maybe striking some resonance with the general public…maybe! 🙁

      Meanwhile Boris, under similar pressure, squeals to Keir Starmer that his questions are not helping in the general interest against the common foe, ‘the virus’….kinda thing!

      There you go! 🙂

    236. Joe says:

      @Bob Mack

      Strawman. Not thanks


      As I have said before – I (and everyone on here) should be opposed to the formation of corrupt structures of power whether it be corporate, government or both together. We should also be very cautious of the kind of ‘disasters’ or ‘threats’ whose solution is the empowering of such corrupt structures.

      Remember the so called ‘war on terror’? Yeah, that kind of thing. Pushed by most of the major media and mainstream voices. The same ones who are telling you to believe them on this in the face of world wide differences in data and professional opinion.


      Have a nice day 🙂

    237. Liz g says:

      Joe @ 1.44
      You too 🙂

    238. Joe says:


      I have to say that I am aware that it took people like me and your very own Rev. Stuart Campbell to express themselves in the strongest terms to get through to most of you that the SNP would not deliver independence and have no intention of doing so – despite the facts being absolutely glaringly obvious (and the absolute SHIT that was received from the Indy movement for saying it).

      With this in mind I don’t expect much ‘aha!’ moments on this either. Despite the warnings from people like Assange, Snowden and others.

      You would think that Scots would be a slight bit more wary when units of the British Army have been put to work on policing speech and criticism online of Coronavirus? Which is pure fascism by the way. (Can’t use these assets to stop rape gangs or paedophiles no?) But then I never thought Scots would continually vote for a party that’s taking a sledgehammer to our basic rights while refusing to deliver on independence.

      A wee bit of a look in the mirror might be necessary.

    239. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Republicofscotland @ 9:56

      You can say that again.

      All of us should be saying that again…and AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN!

    240. J Galt says:

      Bob Mack@12.51

      You know fine the point I was making.

      You appear to be claiming that this current virus is really special and not related to seasonal viral behaviour whereas the evidence is that infections and deaths peaked in mid April in the UK (long before this ludicrous lockdown could have affected either).

      This current seasonal virus is conforming largely to what would be expected of a seasonal virus. It is likely that a seasonal virus will begin to show itself again around October as they do more or less every year at which point you jump up and say “I told you so!”.

    241. Bob Mack says:

      @J Galt,

      Your not getting this are you?

      The WHO are telling you this. Perhaps your more qualified than them to do so. I don’t know. I

      However on balance, I think I throw my hat in their ring rather than yours. Sorry.

    242. Bob Mack says:


      Strawman? No. Just an inconvenient one from your point of view.

    243. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’ve just failed basic filter-dodging in OT, which wasn’t particularly bright of me. Anyhoo, time for some constitutional legal thought?

      Editorial: COVID-19 and I•CON; Guest Editorial: Courts’ relations; Once upon a time in Catalonia …; In this issue

    244. Capella says:

      @ Liz g 12.47 – I’m very flattered to be on list. Especially one that you’re on too. Keep up the good work.

      I agree that corporate power is not the direct creator of the virus. They are desperate to get everyone back to making and buying stuff. OK, governments have doled out billions so that the shareholders and CEOs can carry on living in style. But sooner or later they need the workers to get out there and make stuff.

      It’s a poor parasite that kills ff its host.

      But I do think they have indirectly created this virus through evil animal welfare practices, particularly the meat, dairy and egg industries. Bush game hunting too and clearing of forests for animal food and palm oil.

      It is only a matter of time before the next virus comes along. It could be out there right now. It could be deadlier.

    245. robbo says:

      J Galt says:
      3 June, 2020 at 11:54 am
      Bob Mack@11.10

      Where did you get 2.5 million from?

    246. Iain More says:

      Aye but Blair was a warmongering psychopathic Tory. He had to be to get the English to vote for Labour Party.

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