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Wings Over Scotland


Loud and clear

Posted on July 09, 2013 by

Diligent readers will, we have no doubt recall, that the No campaign chairman, Alistair Darling, has made abundantly clear the conditions of any future enhanced devolution settlement for Scotland in the aftermath of a No vote in 2014:

“If you are going to stand on any platform of constitutional change you are duty bound to put it in a UK manifesto. It is not about a veto it is about having a mandate for it.”

Darling’s position couldn’t be less ambiguous – if Scotland rejects independence, any additional powers for the Scottish Parliament will be subject to the approval of the voters of the rest of the UK (chiefly England, which supplies around 90% of them).

angryenglish

But do we know how the good folk of South Britain are likely to view such a prospect?

Luckily we’ve asked the question at just the right moment, because the Institute for Public Policy Research has this very week published its annual “Future Of England Survey”, and the stridently anti-independence Labour blog Left Foot Forward has thoughtfully pulled out some bullet points.

“Attitudes in England are hardening towards Scotland, with 52% now believing that Scotland receives more than its fair share of public spending, up from 24% in 2002.”

“Asked whether the English or Scottish economy benefits most from being part of the UK, 49% said Scotland whilst just 23% of English respondents said that the English and Scottish economies benefit equally from membership of the union.”

“49% of the English respondents to the survey were against Scottish independence compared to 30% who were in favour.”

“33% supported the idea that England should be governed with laws made solely by English MPs in the UK parliament with just 22% believing that England should be governed as it is now with laws made by all MPs in the UK parliament.”

We haven’t studied the IPPR report in depth yet. But we’re not sure those snippets sound like the thoughts of a people overly keen on handing the Scottish Parliament extensive new powers, and especially not ones that might be to the benefit of Scotland at the presumed expense of the rest of the UK.

It’s just something to keep in mind.

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    117 to “Loud and clear”

    1. Juteman says:

      ‘Left’ Foot Forward my arse.

    2. Andy-B says:

      Good piece Rev
       
      Never mind them giving us more powers, if we vote no, I think that would signal a green light for Westminster to possibly claw some powers back from Holyrood, ultimately what kind of message does a no vote send out, and wahat does it say about Scots in general.

    3. Peter A Bell says:

      People need to be very clear about this. There will be no “more powers” in the event of a No vote. On the contrary, there will be a massive rolling back of devolution.
       
      We cannot afford to vote NO!

    4. Adrian B says:

      “……It is not about a veto it is about having a mandate for it.”
       
      veto noun: an official power or right to refuse to accept or allow something

    5. SCED300 says:

      from Left Foot Forward about Labour:
      But it needs to campaign equally hard to ensure that the unionist slogan “Better together” works as well for England as it does for Scotland and Wales.”
      Woops, in it’s hatred of the the SNP and Independence, Labour seems to have forgotten all about this! Bit late now.

    6. FreddieThreepwood says:

      Jam (it up your arse) tomorrow.

    7. Andy-B says:

      I saw this a while ago Rev, I forgot all about it, it really is good pesrpective to independece
      Imagine Scotland was about to join the UK, could the Pro-unionists convince you ?
       
      1/Your main Parliament will move 600 miles away, and your MPs will be a tiny minority.
      2/You will get a Government you didnt vote for.
      3/All of your oil/gas revenue will be handed over to the UK treasury.
      4/The biggest nuclear weapons arsenal in Western Europe will be just 30 miles from your largest city.
      5/You will join a country who’s health and educational institutions are rapidly being privatised.
      6/You’ll be dragged into illegal wars.
      7/Your financial system will be so weak and lax that it could easily be brought to the brink of financial ruin.
      8/The weak and vulnerable in your society will be targeted, instead of being given support.
      Would you now join this union with the rest of the UK knowing these facts. of course you wouldnt, …..so why would we want to stay now.

    8. Ghengis says:

      Some people did not vote for the Scottish parliament in 1997. Johann Lamont was one I read somewhere, but I’ve lost the reference since. Why she is allowed in the doors at Holyrood I do not know.
       
      Such is the ignorance of some of these people that some of them still think that Westminster should have all the power still and “Holyrood is a waste of money”.
       
      What makes them so ignorant that they don’t see the need to have any say in the way we are governed? I would suggest that the BBC is a major factor in such a degraded culture, but also the politicians who are content to let the people live as sheep.
       
       

    9. seoc says:

      “” 4/ The biggest nuclear weapons arsenal in Western Europe will be just 30 miles from your largest city””
      — and paid for in its entirety with your money, but without your permission, consent or your knowledge.
      ‘Honorable’ Westminster?
       

    10. AnneDon says:

      It shows a complete failure to educate the public on constitutional matters on the part of the mainstream media, especially the BBC.  If only there was, I don’t know, A Mission To Inform. . .
       
      If they believe we are such a charge on them, why are they so against independence?  Though it will be interesting to quote it at the knuckledraggers on The Guardian political thread, who insist that if it was up to the English we’d be independent in a moment!
       

    11. Bill McLean says:

      AnneDon – do you really expect the Propaganda Ministry at Pacific Quay to educate the people to they can make an informed choice. I stopped listening to them two years ago – they are silly, juvenile and banal and on top of all that dishonest – but then British is in their title!

    12. Juteman says:

      @AnneDon.
      The lies from the unionist establishment will cost them dearly when we vote Yes.
      The rUK will nosedive without our assets.
      Subsidy junkies?

    13. Bill C says:

      This article lays out in stark terms just what will happen if there is a no vote. Our constitutional future will be in the hands of people who do not live in Scotland. Simples!

    14. Vronsky says:

      Just like to say that I’ve walked the length of Engand, from the Debated Lands to Plymouth (looking for a boat to France).  Yes, I bumped into a few (very few) Angles who didn’t understand good manners, but the overwhelming majority worked to make my journey possible, and sometimes at some personal risk. 

      One wee man left the pub (tourist advice: in England, wee men in pubs are better informed than the tourist office) and led me down through the village to the stile I had to cross, and pointed to the path over the hill.  He carried his pint with him all the way and I’ll swear he didn’t spill a drop.

      One lady let me pitch my tent in her garden. Apparently this breached the terms of her let, and she could have lost her home.  She was amazingly attractive, so I bought her a very speculative half pint of lager shandy. Sorry guys, I’m afraid the story ends there.  I just got a tent pitched for the night.
       

    15. Jiggsbro says:

      But do we know how the good folk of South Britain are likely to view such a prospect?
       
      We do, but in practice it’s irrelevant. Darling is talking about a mandate based on a UK general election manifesto, not a mandate based on a UK referendum. While the voters of England may not wish to see Scotland ‘granted’ more powers, how likely is it that that will be a deciding factor in a Westminster election, particularly if all the main parties do offer more powers? In that scenario, voters could hardly avoid giving the government a mandate for more powers, just as they couldn’t avoid giving it a mandate for austerity. Even if only one party had more powers in their manifesto, they may still be elected by England for other reasons and could still claim a mandate for further devolution.
       
      Of course, in practice that’s irrelevant, because they won’t offer more powers (or if they do, they won’t find parliamentary time for them what with all that austerity to get through. Maybe next time).

    16. Juteman says:

      @Jiiggsboro
      Power devolved is power retained.

    17. Atypical_Scot says:

      The rain may rain and the snaw may snaw,
      The wind may blaw and the craw may craw,
      But yi’ll ne’er get me tae vote naw,
      Cause I’m naw as dovey as tae throw it a’ awa.

    18. Vambomarbeleye says:

      I remember years ago looking in a model shop in York. With me was a army collegue wh was English. One of the models was the Bruce. My friend was rather puzzeled by the battle axe. I explained about what he used the axe for. All he had been taught at scoll was French English history and knew nothing of Scottish history.
      I all fairness I knew nothing of French English history. Or at least very little. Those old enough will recall the green history book at primery school. Had a very realistic picture of the Bruce using said battle axe.
      Do perhaps some Scots base the knowledge of the English on what they see on the tv. Eastenders through to shameless. While perhaps the English are basing their views on Rab C.
      After the yes vote we will still need to get on with our neighbours and take note our family. The way the no lot are behaving it may well leave divides that cannot be bridged. There is remember still mining familys divided because some were on strike while the other went back to worke.
      It needs to be hammerd home the bennifits that have come to Scotland allready through having a pro Scotland goverment and benniits still to come.

    19. Jiggsbro says:

      Power devolved is power retained.
       
      Well, no. Power devolved is power devolved. You can’t have devolution without some power being retained – by definition – so the slogan is as pointless as ‘devolution isn’t independence’ or ‘half a loaf isn’t a whole loaf’.

    20. Juteman says:

      It’s tbe ‘A’ typical that gets me worried, A’S’.

    21. Juteman says:

      @ Jiggsbro.
      What are you saying?

    22. Braco says:

      Jiggsboro,
      what is devolved can be undevolved. The devolvee has no power to stop that happening, just as they had no real power to force the devolution in the first place. Therefor, in the final analysis, they have no real power. It is a political illusion. 
       
      Power devolved is power retained.

    23. Atypical_Scot says:

      @Juteman;
      Def; not comfortable with type.
      I will no matter what vote yes, converted by Peter A Bell last year from a pro-Holyrood, pro further devolutionist.  I am sure that what I want is fiscal and policy control for Holyrood. I am unsure if I am Scottish however. My family goes back in Scotland to Robert 1 (Stewarts – directly related). My English ancestry (grandmother) goes back nearly as far as does my great grandmother’s on the other side in Ireland. Not a typical Scot. 
      Can you explain your ‘worry’? Do you think I am a manifestation of project fear?

    24. Jiggsbro says:

      what is devolved can be undevolved.
       
      Yes. I do actually understand what devolution is, thanks. And a devolved power remains a power until and unless it is taken back. It”s not an illusion, it is real power, even if it turns out to be temporary power. Granted, that doesn’t lend itself well to a snappy slogan, but if political arguments could be won by mindlessly parroting slogans we’d have been independent long ago.

    25. Jiggsbro says:

      What are you saying?
       
      Exactly what I posted.

    26. Atypical_Scot says:

      Braco;
       
      Would that not also entail Queeny revoking Royal assent to Holyrood?

    27. Juteman says:

      @ AS.
      I couldn’t care less about your background. Maybe I just sense your hesitance about voting Yes, as I’ve been a nasty republican Yes for over 30 years. Whatever it is, no offence meant. Welcome aboard. 🙂

    28. Juteman says:

      @ Jiggsboro.
      Devolution isn’t power, it’s a favour to the natives so they can feel good about themselves.

    29. Braco says:

      Atypical Scot,
      your (or anybody else’s) antecedents do not matter, other than them being your own interesting personal story.
       
      What matters and makes you Scottish, is that you want to be, you have the Nation’s best interests at heart and you live there or want to make your life there. I think this has been simplified as best they could by making the right to vote in the referendum one of residency and has my full support.
       
      Anyone who told me they don’t want to be Scottish but can vote in the referendum, I would advise and reason with them that they should simply abstain on the issue and let the people who do see themselves as Scottish decide their Nation’s future.

    30. Braco says:

      Atypical Scot,
      Queeny rules by consent. Devolved power can be removed or given without consent.

      Ultimate power lies in the ability of a Nation to say ‘No’ or ‘Yes’ and have either democratic decision acted upon every time.

      Jiggsboro, I think you are talking about powers not Power.

    31. Dal Riata says:

      “Asked whether the English or Scottish economy benefits most from being part of the UK, 49% said Scotland…”
       
      After Scottish independence, that same 49% are going to be in for one hell of a shock!

    32. Braco says:

      Atypical Scot,
      Queeny rules by consent. Devolved power can be removed or given without consent.

      Ultimate power lies in the ability of a Nation to say ‘No’ or ‘Yes’ and have either democratic decision (or the decisions of their democratic representative ruling body) acted upon every time.

      Jiggsboro, I think you are talking about powers not Power.
       

      This is a test as my first attempt is in moderation?

    33. scottish_skier says:

      My family goes back in Scotland to Robert 1 (Stewarts – directly related). My English ancestry (grandmother) goes back nearly as far as does my great grandmother’s on the other side in Ireland. Not a typical Scot. 

      That’s hardly atypical. My wife is French (of mixed Brittany and Bordeaux area stock) and now a French-Scot (been living and working here nearly 14 years) who’ll be voting yes.

      My experience is that’s quite typical; all my French Scot colleagues (oil and gas) are Yes.

      Best of all I’ve recruited my Iranian colleagues with British passports to Yes (and the ones without for moral support). Bet the right-wingers would love that. Mu ha ha!

      Here, hold on. I think I can top even that. At least one German guy I know in the bag also!

      😉

      I’ll probably be in the Mail tomorrow ‘Cybernat recruits Iranians and Germans to vote for Scottish independence’.

    34. Atypical_Scot says:

      @Braco;
      Although voting SNP and a member, mostly through loathing of Westminster, I never truly considered my nationality as important. I think devolution is a one way street because if Westminster give with one hand, and take away with the other, surely they know how the Scottish electorate will react.

    35. lumilumi says:

      The Westminster power elite reap what they sow.
       
      For hundreds of years, and certainly for the past few dacades (since North Sea oil was discovered) they’ve been telling the English and the Scottish that the Scots are subsidy junkies etc. Divide and rule, oldest trick in the book. Their policies and propaganda are at the root of the imminent break-up of the UK. There will come a tipping point when “divide” wins over “rule”.
       
      Most English people are decent folk. Nice, friendly, polite, reasonable. Most Scots are too (although I personally think Scots are more welcoming). There are unpleasant bigots in both countries, as there are in every country. The key question is: do you encourage jingoism and bigotry or discourage it?
       
      It seems to me that the YES Scotland movement is civic-minded, inclusive, discourages jingoism and bigotry of any kind. The NO Scotland campaign seems to encourage divisions (even among themselves :-D) and even bigotry.
       
      Now ask yourselves, what kind of a country do you want to live in? What kind of a country do you want your children and grandchildren to live in?
       
      O/T So chuffed about Andy Murray’s Wimbledon title!!! I was sailing in the beautiful Finnish archipelago so got to hear the news that he’s WON only hours afterwards on a crackly radio! The whole crew (3 Finns and 1 Swede) raised a mug (rum, we were on a sailboat :-)) to Andy Murray and Scotland. I only got onshore today and learned about the faux-furore about Alex Salmond and the Saltire in the Royal Box. Oh god, what a let down. Talk about lowering the tone. Why can’t some Scots just be happy and glad about Andy Murray’s achievement?
       
      Oh well, it’s 78 years since an Englishman has won Wimbledon. ;-D

    36. lumilumi says:

      skier @8.31
       
      Oh dear, you’re a marked man. MI5 and MI6 have a file on you.
       
      Nevermind, they probably have a file on everybody who posts here or on any pro-indy site, or posts pro-indy comments anywhere! 🙂
       
      Big Brother is watching you. 😀

    37. Braco says:

      Atypical Scot,
      there are ways of taking power away and then, there are ways of taking power away.
       
      As Westminster does have the Power, they could easily hamstring our Parliament. Gradually force financial inabilities to act upon it, for example and so restrict it’s ability to solve real and pressing problems in the eyes of it’s electorate. Over a decade or so, done cleverly and from many different angles, the Parliaments status will inevitably become lessened.
       
      Add to this plenty of vitriolic reporting from the BBC and MSM disinformation and blame placing plus an already healthy disrespect of politicians and hey presto, an atmosphere where powers can be fairly easily ‘repatriated’ back to Westminster. 
       
      Power is a very, very long game and Westminster has shown itself, over centuries, to be quite adept at it.

    38. Bill C says:

      @lumilumi – A very good post at 9.05 and a very true post at 9.13.

    39. MajorBloodnok says:

      scottish_skier – right, I’ll see your French, Iranians and Germans and raise you a YES-voting Lebanese!

    40. john king says:

      lumilumi says @ 9.05
      possibly one of the best posts I have ever read

    41. ianbrotherhood says:

      Rev-
       
      In a recent thread you were trying to work out how many members ScotLab has. Don’t know if you arrived at a final guesstimate, or if the following point has already been made, but:
       
      This Falkirk/Lab/Unite stushie has to do with new Union members being ‘recruited’, right? Those being signed-up as new members of Unite are automatically given membership of the Labour Party unless they explicitly declare a wish not to join. Right?
       
      So…if this is being/has been repeated across Scotland for however long, doesn’t it mean that an unknown % of the Scottish Labour Party membership don’t even know they are members.
       
      Can it be the case that an individual is a member of a political party without being aware of it?
       

    42. Atypical_Scot says:

      @Braco;
       
      Very true. 

    43. Tony Little says:

      @Braco
       
      It’s already happening.  The quiet out-sourcing of government services (e.g. NHS) means less direct spend by the Treasury, and therefore a reduced Barnett consequences / budget.  Add to that the “non-Barnett” fraud of HS2, for example, and you will see massive pressure on the Scottish budget in the next few years.  The only way to preserve what the Scots seem to want (Welfare, social support, education, health etc) is to vote YES.  A no vote loses everything that has been achieved.

    44. ianbrotherhood says:

      Anecdotal, but from a trustworthy source – a friend who works in local government told me earlier that rent arrears (since April 1st) are up 500% compared to same time last year.

    45. Braco says:

      Tony Little,
      Absolutely and that with the threat of an indy referendum looming. Imagine how these decisions will be ‘enhanced’ should that threat be removed with a NO vote! It gives me the fear.
       

    46. Peter Mirtitsch says:

      Can I put on my Buzz Killington stovepipe hat and mutton chops, and mention one teensy wee thing about devolved powers, and devo max, etc.? One word; Stormont!

    47. clochoderic says:

      Ian Brotherhood:
       Good point that got me thinking- as a member of the EIS and a customer in funds with the CO-OP Bank I wonder if someone somewhere has been voting on my behalf for all these years.

    48. Bill C says:

      @ianbrotherhood – Is it any wonder? You can’t get blood out of a stone! I think that once the penny drops (excuse the horrible pun) that this will not happen in an independent Scotland, there will be a significant rise in the YES vote. It is also of course important to point out to the folk afflicted by this disgusting tax that Labour offer no salvation for two reasons: 1. Labour have no chance of being elected in 2015. 2. Labour would not repeal the Bedroom Tax even if they did achieve the impossible and were elected in 2015.
       

    49. Betsy says:

      @ianbrotherhood,
      Shocked but not surprised rent arrears are so much higher. Although the bedroom tax will be a factor I strongly suspect a bigger reason is the unprecedented number of JSA claimants being sanctioned on often quite trivial grounds, which in turn disrupts their housing benefit payments. Add to that the high numbers being chucked off ESA, DLA etc and we really have the making of a crisis on our hands but if you think it’s bad now just wait until Universal Credit is rolled out. For the first time people in employment but still retaining a partial entitlement to benefit will subject to conditionality meaning sanctions if they can’t prove they’re looking for more hours/better paid work. 
      If we vote Yes we’re going to inherit a badly damaged welfare system but at least have the option of trying to build something better. The above in conjunction with the issues Tony Little raises in the post above make a No vote a vote for a very, very dark future. 
      Finally if I can end my wee O/T rant with a public service announcement. I would highly recommend that anyone sanctioned by the job centre, refused ESA/DLA submits an appeal. A lot of claims succeed at tribunal and even if yours isn’t one of them at least you can draw some comfort from having fought your corner. They rely on people getting disheartened and giving up to hide their bad decision making. Don’t let the bastards off the hook. 

    50. IainGraysSubwayLament says:

      No doubt the panicking unionist parties will all offer their own versions of less power while trying desperately  to make it appear like they are doing the opposite. I suggest these flimsy con tricks should be termed “DevoMinus” since that is in essence what they will all be.
       
      Sadly for them they all lined up to oppose Devomax and more powers on the ballot so their credibility on such matters is already in tatters.
       
      “Vote No get nothing” is a powerful message, but so is  “Vote No get less Devolution” which is the real and even more dire situation.

    51. Training Day says:

      O/T

      Newsnicht on the Falkirk corruption: ‘Johann Lamont is not available’.

      Feather, knock, down..

    52. Roll_On_2014 says:

      TEST

    53. Roll_On_2014 says:

      Link

    54. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Betsy-
       
      ‘…I strongly suspect a bigger reason is the unprecedented number of JSA claimants being sanctioned on often quite trivial grounds, which in turn disrupts their housing benefit payments. Add to that the high numbers being chucked off ESA, DLA etc and we really have the making of a crisis on our hands…’
       
      Your comments back-up precisely what I heard – it’s clear that severe targets have been set from ‘on-high’. The example I was told related to JSA claimants being instantly struck-off any further entitlement if they’re a day ‘late’ for signing-on.
       
      This can only happen if frontline staff are being forced to apply the strictest-possible interpretation of the rules – previously, they were entrusted with some discretion. 
       
      The other snippet I got was that charities are being sounded-out on whether or not they could operate the ‘Job Centres’.  Anyone else heard that one?

    55. IainGraysSubwayLament says:

       
      @Training Day
       
      To be fair she’s probably only just got the phone call from wee Ed Miliband to tell her he’s had a bit of think about Unions, made a speech and here is what Lamont thinks about it.
       
      Remember, the only thing more terrifying than ‘The Silence of the Lamont’ is when she finally opens her gob and lets the london labour pish flood out of it.

    56. CameronB says:

      Charities operating Job Centers will raise more than a few data protection concerns, to say the least.
       
      On the subject of personal data, I would like to think that all data collected by GCHQ concerning Scottish residents, will be destroyed following a Yes vote. I would hate to think that I have paid to enable a foriegn power spy on me. I would also expect our future constitution to specifically prohibit such state intrusion in our private lives.

    57. Atypical_Scot says:

      O/T 
      I know there is a necessity for defence, but this is more than I can take. The new ad for commandos – the defending of the British jungle?
       
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhahiQJhfTo

    58. Bill C says:

      o/t  Breaking News – Reports tonight of an English Revolution in the House of Commons – English MP’s ONLY to have the right to vote on English issues, i.e. Regional MP’s no longer have the right to vote on issues relating to England.  Superb, absolutely brilliant, the union is now truly in its death throes. 

    59. Atypical_Scot says:

      @Bill C;
      The Tories have it sewn up.

    60. EphemeralDeception says:

      I have often wondered about the better ‘together’ slogan.Together in what exactly?
       
      The Scottish population is tracted (fr. dragged) along inside the UK no matter what their opinion is on anything of consequence.  From matters as diverse as Energy, War, Defense, Social care… whatever our opinion, in Scotland, simply does not matter or count in the UK.
      We do not matter.
      We are not together in any sense of the term.
      We have no veto and we have no national voice. We are but a region as any other English region that is ignored by Westminster and worse there is no concept of English +Welsh + Scottish national will coming together for  the benefit of the UK. It just does not exist.
       
      The very fact that we are NOT together is something that the YES campaign should spend some more time emphasising to get it into the anodyne skulls of the population that we are essentially ignored in the UK.

    61. Jiggsbro says:

      The very fact that we are NOT together is something that the YES campaign should spend some more time emphasising
       
      That may run up against the inconvenient fact that we are together. Your disagreements with the word ‘together’ – our opinion doesn’t count, no national voice – are actually with the word ‘better’. It’s that word we need to concentrate on.

    62. Bill C says:

      The two contributors to the SKY News Press Preview are talking about Scottish MP’s only attending the Commons one day a week. This is big news.  Scottish MP’s now only needed on a part time basis. Thank you Tam of the Binns  for your West Lothian Question all those years ago. The Scottish Westminster chickens are finally coming home to Scotland to roost!

    63. Jiggsbro says:

      I would also expect our future constitution to specifically prohibit such state intrusion in our private lives.
       
      Because that worked really well in the US?

    64. EphemeralDeception says:

      In addition:
      Scotland was not together when we the UK went to war in Iraq.
      Not together on the bedroom tax
      Not together on Nuclear power and Nuclear weaponry
      Not together in Energy policy at all
      Not together in social policy at all
      Not together in foreign policy
      Not together in most subjects worth discussion.
       
      Why is that better for us?

    65. EphemeralDeception says:

      @Jiggsbro – no I dispute both the ‘better’ and the ‘together’. You have to show that we are really together before considering if its actually better or not.  Joined or pulled or unioned <> together in spirit or will.

    66. ianbrotherhood says:

      Do we know who came up with the ‘Better Together’ slogan?
       
      It’s insipid – can you imagine hordes of unionists chanting it, or anyone clasping a hand to their bosom, damp-eyed, as they intone it repeatedly into their whisky?
       
      Nah…
       
      Maybe they’ll come up with something, er, well, ‘better’?
       
      If so, they’d best set about doing it soon – the ‘brand’ isn’t working.

    67. Atypical_Scot says:

      @ianbrotherhood;
      ‘All Resist Scottish Embarkation’
      ARSE for short.
       

    68. Jiggsbro says:

      Joined or pulled or unioned <> together in spirit or will.
       
      True. But ‘together’ <> ‘together in spirit or will’. ‘Together’=’Together’. ‘Together’= ‘joined’^’pulled’^’unioned’. We are indisputably ‘together’ and if the Yes campaign were to start arguing that we weren’t, the response – apart from pointing and laughing – would be to ask why we need independence if we’re not together in the first place.

    69. Jiggsbro says:

      Do we know who came up with the ‘Better Together’ slogan?
       
      Many other people before the UKOK bunch lifted it.

    70. silver19 says:

      I think this English Revolution in the House of Commons is more about increasing the Tory vote south of border for the next GE and little to do with the West Lothian Question. 
      The Tories know that they are lost cause North of Border with voters. This will help the Tories with votes down south as it will show that Scottish MP’s will not interfere with English only legislation anymore.
       

    71. tartanfever says:

      Let’s also remember what Darling told Holyrood magazine in that interview –  he believed Scotland would receive no further powers on returning a No vote.
      Pretty much puts to bed any need for Westminster to have any kind of debate whatsoever on any further devolution. It will be a simple ‘No’ and thats it – end of discussion.

    72. naebd says:

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/english-revolution-in-house-of-commons-plan-to-give-englands-mps-right-of-veto-on-issues-not-affecting-scotland-wales-or-northern-ireland-8698505.html
      Labour are up poo creek if they think they can oppose these measures.
       
      Actually this rings bells. What was the story a while back about Cameron making secret deals with the SNP for devo max-like setup being implemented.
       
      Perhaps that was a Chinese whispers interpretation of this.

    73. naebd says:

      Wouldn’t it be funny if the party with the most Scottish MPs and the most to lose from more devolution were frozen out by the Tories and Lib Dems destroying their northern vote-fodder’s reason to exist?
       
      Ha ha.

      (I guess that’s an exaggeration of the effects of this measure. In fact it might make Labour even more opposed to devolution, given that krypto devolution would be effectively implemented in England, where they tend to have slightly smaller majorities)

    74. Patrick Roden says:

      OT ish,
      Bob Crowe responds to Milliband…
       
      Publication Date: July 9 2013
      RMT General Secretary Bob Crow said: “When Tony Blair is wheeled out to underpin Ed Miliband’s attack on the affiliated unions than you know that this is a panic move driven by the demands of big business and a right wing media who would prefer that the working class have no voice at all.
      “RMT was expelled from the Labour Party almost a decade ago and in that time we have actually increased our political influence as we have had the freedom to back candidates and parties who demonstrate clear support for this trade union and its policies.
       
      “With this latest assault by Labour on the unions the time is right to start building an alternative political party that speaks for the working people and the working class communities that find themselves under the most brutal attack from cuts and austerity in a generation. Clinging to the wreckage of a Labour Party that didn’t lift a finger to repeal the anti-union laws despite 13 years in power is a complete waste of time.”
       
      ENDS
       
      Things are getting very interesting.

    75. Patrick Roden says:

      @Ian brotherhood.
       
      Better Together was the slogan adopted by NHS trusts in some parts of England (mine included) The ‘Better’ referred to better health.
      I’m sure I can remember that some groups complained that BT had stolen their slogan, but the MSM soon buried the story and nothing else was heard.
       
      They don’t have a single original idea in their thick skulls.

    76. Captain Caveman says:

      This constant drip-drip-drip passive portrayal of ‘the English’ as being this leering, Scots-hating (and resentful) moron collective is starting to grate a little – be it either the endless re-posting of dribblings from Twitter trolls (who are a tiny, tiny minority), or, as in this case, a leering, V-sign toting football supporter? It’s unrepresentative and disingenuous in the extreme.
       
      It doesn’t matter how often something is said or claimed – it doesn’t make it true or fair.

    77. scottish_skier says:

      RE the plans to stop Scots MPs voting on English only matters.
      I wondered when this might pop up on the radar again.
      There’s more to it than meets the eye. Labour are being royally shafted.
      What use is Scotland to Ed Milliband if this happens? What’s the point of Scottish Labour MPs going to Westminster?
      No more Scottish PMs. No more Scottish cabinet members. I mean you can’t realistically have a ‘part-time’ MP as a head honcho unable to vote on many bills now can you. 
      What about Scots peers? You need to do the same with them…
      Scots MPs – what would be the point in you going to London? You won’t form part of the main ‘majority’ any more.
      The end of the union is nigh.

    78. Juteman says:

      @CC.
      Now you know how we independence minded folk feel when we are constantly portrayed in the media as right wing, English hating nazi bigots.

    79. pa_broon74 says:

      @juteman.
       
      No doubt as with the Wimbledon flag waving and so much else when it comes to being Scottish and a supporter of independence, different rules apply. Pigeon-holing all Scots = OK, pigeon-holing all English = bad.
       
      I suppose its not all bad, Scots are usually only pigeon-holed if they disagree with the mother ship.
       

    80. scottish_skier says:

      It’s no coincidence that the ‘Scots MPs are to become rather useless as they will not by default form part of the Westminster majority’ bill is to be announced in the autumn of this year.

      Part of ongoing negotiations.

    81. Doug Daniel says:

      Vronsky: “She was amazingly attractive, so I bought her a very speculative half pint of lager shandy. Sorry guys, I’m afraid the story ends there.”
       
      Should’ve made it a full pint of proper strength beer!

    82. Dcanmore says:

      @ScottishSkier …What use is Scotland to Ed Milliband if this happens? What’s the point of Scottish Labour MPs going to Westminster?”
       
      That’s why Labour has pretended the problem doesn’t exist.

    83. Braco says:

      Doug Daniel,
      An Aberdonian Cad and a CyberNat! How do you live with yourself?

    84. Linda's Back says:

      Newsnet Scotland reports
      Labour MP Alistair Darling was paid thousands of pounds by a company heavily involved in the privatisation of the English NHS, it has emerged.
       In 2011, the Edinburgh MP who heads the anti-independence campaign Better Together, received over £10,000 for addressing a dinner organised by Cinven Limited.

    85. Luigi says:

      Given current sentiments in England, I have a feeling that Cameron’s move to hog-tie Scottish Labour MPs in Westminster “Englsih” affairs will play very well with the electorate south of the border. As S-S says: “Labour are fecked” (well and truly).

    86. Braco says:

      Does anyone have any more info on exactly how this ‘revolt’ over English votes for English issues happened last night and whether it will actually amount to anything. Does it have Tory Government support, like the recent private members bill for a referendum on EU membership within 2 years of the next Westminster elections? Thanks

    87. Luigi says:

      Any move to prevent Scottish MPs “interfering” in the affairs of England will prove to be extremely popular south of the border.  Ah to be a Scottish Labour MP in these troubled times – as the rest of us bathe in the sunshine of hope and promise, these sad individuals enter their own little dark age. It could have been so different.

    88. Ghengis says:

      England only issues .. hmmm
       
      Billions of our money on high speed rail from London to Birmingham and beyond, well, Leeds that might be. There is no Barnett consequential.
       
       
      Billions of our money on Nuclear power stations. No Barnett consequential. London’s new sewerage system, (still ongoing quietly I presume) No Barnett consequential.
       
      With no opposition the Tories can realise their dreams of an American style insurance based healthcare system. The American system is twice as inefficient as ours in terms of cost. So although direct taxes can be saved, impacting the block grant to Scotland, people in England who can afford it will be paying more. Those who can’t afford it will unfortunately live with illness and die earlier.
      .
       
       

    89. Tony Little says:

      @Ghengis
       
      Of course you raise an interesting point.  Exactly who will determine the degree of “Englishness” that a particular law has.  ANY law that impacts on the “English” support to Barnett related issues, e.g. what if widespread privatisation of the NHS went ahead, resulting in a 50% reduction in direct Treasury budgets – this would mean a 50% reduction in the proportion of Barnett relating to the NHS in Scotland.  And so on.
       
      This is a PR sop to the SE England as nothing is likely to happen before the next election, but will make the right noises in the manifesto of the Tories for 2015.
       
      Incidentally, as you will surely know, the SNP never vote on “England only” laws now anyway.  This is a direct Tory attack on Labour’s Scottish MPs.  The end is nigh for “Scottish” Labour.

    90. Robert Louis says:

      This whole English votes for English laws malarky, opens up a can of worms for the Scottish unionst cabal.  Suddenly, in reality and fact, we are no longer ‘better together’.  With each passing day, the wheels fall of any facile case for Scotland being run by London, and Labour MP’s in Scotland grow increasingly irrelevant.
       
      As an aside, I watched Miliband’s ‘getting ‘tough’ on unions’ speech yesterday, and he just looked like a man telling lie after lie after lie.  If he really believed in what he has said, he would immediately change the rules, and stand for Labour leadership election again.  Of course, we all know he won’t do that, as it was unite’s votes which let him win against his brother David.  ‘Red Ed’, indeed.  Wholly unconvincing.
       
      Does anybody trust Labour on anything anymore????

    91. Bill C says:

      @scoltish skier – Absolutely spot on. Part time Scottish MP’s become second class MP’s. This development is a major crack in the union and both the Tories and Labour know it. It also provides even more evidence for what you have been saying over the last few months.  The union is unravelling before our eyes.

    92. Braco says:

      Ghengis and Tony Little,
      Re The Barnett Formula massaging. Exactly!
       
      Does this not just formalise what has been common practice for decades. They can’t even be bothered to pretend any more! I also think it definitely spells the end of the Barnett Formula as we know it. The Welsh have been screaming for it’s change for years too.

      One other question. What about the Welsh? They are much more legally aligned to England and so Westminster Law making. Will they find themselves marginalised in a UK, unable to influence the majority of the Laws they are governed by? Will their Parliament have to take on more and more separate law making powers?
       
      Seems to me these idiots have just exported a problem from Scotland to Wales (possibly Norn Irelan too, to a lesser extent) rather than fixed anything.

    93. Captain Caveman says:

      @Juteman
       
      True enough (although left wing, certainly not right wing I’d say). I don’t want to be a hypocrite here as I’ve bashed “Cybernats” en masse before now also I’m now somewhat ashamed to admit. Belatedly at least, I now know better etc.
       
      Two wrongs don’t make a right though; you can retain the moral high ground in this argument, which will pay dividends in the end. 

    94. Atypical_Scot says:

      England only revolt.
       
      IN THE EVENT OF ISCOTLAND SMASH GLASS DROP WALES AND NI

    95. Braco says:

      Captain Caveman,
      A pleasure and so rare to get to argue with a Gentleman on this subject.

      Although ‘moral high ground’ won’t butter any neeps, should we end up with a NO vote!

    96. Braco says:

      Atypical Scot,
      my thoughts also, although in effect most likely unintentionally.

    97. Captain Caveman says:

      Many thanks Braco, much appreciated mate though sadly, I haven’t always lived up to that ideal. But, I’m genuinely enjoying my ‘rebirth’ on this site and the various interesting discussions; the lesson I have finally learned is empathy; seeing the other side of the argument.

    98. Colin Dunn says:

      @ Andy-B
      I saw this a while ago Rev, I forgot all about it, it really is good pesrpective to independence – Imagine Scotland was about to join the UK, could the Pro-unionists convince you ?”
       
      I’ve now added some printable A4 and A5 flyers to my http://www.indyposterboy.info site, one of which is based on this very idea. See below. Print them out, spread them around folks.
       
      http://www.indyposterboy.info/scottish-independence-flyers.asp

    99. Bill McLean says:

      You would agree then Caveman that the way the English media represents Scots is “misrepresentative” and if you do you will of course be making the point – you will of course be ignored! It grates with me that all my adult life, much of it spent in England and working with English people abroad, Scots and Scotland have to be put in their place at every opportunity – sometimes said as a joke – always a cowards way of bringing out deep-seated feelings. Of course most English people are decent and kindly but you are, as English people tend to do, trying to insinuate that we do it all the time. This tells a bigger story about English people than it  does about us!

    100. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “or, as in this case, a leering, V-sign toting football supporter”

      Sigh. You have no idea how hard I had to look for a picture illustrating “angry English people” that DIDN’T have the EDL in it.

      The survey clearly indicates anger among the English people collectively – I doubt it was conducted solely outside football grounds – and the picture shows people who are (a) identifiably English, thanks to the flag, and (b) visibly angry about something.

      And that’s ALL it shows. It’s some angry people with an England flag. Anything else you’ve read into it is entirely your own problem.

    101. Captain Caveman says:

      “Of course most English people are decent and kindly but you are, as English people tend to do, trying to insinuate that we do it all the time. This tells a bigger story about English people than it  does about us!”
       
      To be fair here, I was talking very specifically about Stu’s output of late (the imagery associated with this article, re-tweeted Britnat troll stuff including in multiple other articles as well as his Twitter feed etc.) – most certainly not Scottish people en masse. I most certainly wasn’t insinuating that Scottish people have a penchant for any such thing; in fact I have repeatedly said (for years), including here, the precise opposite: i.e. that Scottish people are quite the most hospitable anywhere, in my direct and personal, first hand experience.

    102. Captain Caveman says:

      @Stu
       
      My point, which I maintain, is that IN MY OPINION your output of late has used a great deal of images from Twitter etc. and including the above which casts ‘the English’ in a bad light. I don’t doubt that the media is biased against Indy (and pro-Indy supporters); I’ve said so myself many times. Perhaps the furore about “Cybernat” posts or whatever you were highlighting in the press recently justified re-tweeting/printing stuff from the other extreme ONCE, for the purposes of illustration and balance, and to show that this stuff isn’t reported. But multiple times?
       
      This photo, too, is being used to depict what ‘the good folk of the South of England’ think about Scotland, its contribution to the Union and so on – which is, as far as I’m concerned (and as I’ve said) entirely unhelpful and frankly, insulting. Sure none of this will keep you up at night and that’s all fine with me; I’ve expressed my view and you can take it or leave it as they say. Remember, though, that whatever misdeeds the mainstream media may well be guilty of, two wrongs don’t make a right, and stuff like this can be quite dangerous.

    103. Braco says:

      Captain Caveman,
      no bother. In my experience it’s really all about respect. You don’t have to agree with another’s view, but to simply rubbish it without engaging seriously with the issues they raise is the main problem with this debate to date and I must say, that attitude is most prevalent in the Unionist camp.
       
      Worse than that, the entire betterNO campaign seems to be based around it as a concept. It really worries me that another year and a half of that kind of disrespect will be damaging, damage that could so easily be avoided. I don’t think it will change the outcome though. So, (on behalf of myself) welcome and keep on arguing!

    104. Bill McLean says:

      Captain – I accept what you say and my only excuse for my rant is that I get a bit fed up with us being told we are naughty but as recent examples of tweets and a paper to the HOuse of Commons illustrate CyberBrits are “vastly” more offensive that Cybernats. I can produce the details if you want. I should also have been more clear with my use of “you” – I meant it plurally not you personally. My wife and I had a dreadful experience in Kefalonia last year with a couple from Newcastle who shouted my English wife down when she tried to explain her point of view. I am very interested in psychology and my last sentence was a feeling I have that England, subsequently Britain, had such massive power, that it is ingrained in some English people that they must be right all the time, must win all the time, and some attitudes to foreigners, not just Scots, that I have across, have been shocking. I wish you and all decent people well and once again excuse my rant. Bill

    105. Captain Caveman says:

      Bill, hey no worries at all mate, your frustration is entirely justified as far as I’m concerned. The quality of the mainstream debate, such as it is, is utterly laughable.

    106. HandandShrimp says:

      I heard Margaret Curran on the radio last night getting a fairly tough time over Lamont’s involvement over Falkirk. She was trying to argue that Johann was In the Thick of It and fully involved but couldn’t answer any questions as to why Johann had issued a “I will reflect on the implications of all this” statement. I think I have come to the conclusion that Margaret and Johann are not thick or useless at interviews. The problem is that they are Out of the Loop. They don’t actually know what the hell is going on and therefore have to try and sound as on message as possible without actually committing themselves or saying anything of substance (Johann achieves this by hiding).

    107. Andy-B says:

      @Colin Dunn
       
      Had a wee look on your site one word “BRILLIANT”…keep the good work up.

    108. Scaraben says:

      @Betsy
      “but if you think it’s bad now just wait until Universal Credit is rolled out.”
       
      Maybe they will not be able to roll it out if this report is true.
      http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07/10/universal_credit_will_be_a_universal_failure_says_whistleblower/
       
      We are obviously “Better Together” because the UK is just so good with expensive government projects, especially those involving IT.

    109. Alex Taylor says:

      Andy-B says:
      10 July, 2013 at 12:45 pm

      @Colin Dunn
       
      Had a wee look on your site one word “BRILLIANT”…keep the good work up.
       
      Me too Colin. I’ll be putting some of this stuff through doors and wearing T-Shirts with your ideas as well. Thanks for this and ditto Andy-B’s words.
       
       
      Alex

    110. Dal Riata says:

      @Colin Dunn
      Here’s another shout out for your site. Some terrific poster and flyer material there. Thanks for that, and keep them coming!

    111. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Here’s another shout out for your site. Some terrific poster and flyer material there. Thanks for that, and keep them coming!”

      Yeah, I should really try to find some space to squeeze it into the blogroll.

    112. Colin Dunn says:

      @ Alex Taylor
      @ Andy-B
      @ Dal Riata
      “Here’s another shout out for your site. Thanks for that, and keep them coming!
       
      Many thanks. Tend to work in isolation a bit, so nice to get positive feedback 😉
       
      I’ve had the flyers designs printed on postcards and donated 1500 of them to the local Yes campaign, who distributed them yesterday, so hopefully that will have some effect on the undecideds in my area.
       
      Nose back on grindstone.

    113. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Forgot I’d had a wee prune of the links column last week, and had one free slot. You’re in 😀

      PS Wee suggestion – how about a variant of “Do You Feel Lucky” with Boris, rather than Cameron, alongside Farage?

    114. Braco says:

      Colin Dunn,
      Brilliant work min! I have bookmarked you and will def be pushing these through letter boxes very shortly. Thanks for all your work. I will be spreading the word about your site and keep my thinking hat on, just in case I get an idea that could help. Not very likely, but who knows. bigsmiley
      Thanks again Colin, really inspiring!

    115. Braco says:

      Rev Stu,
      Great addition to your blogroll. These are the kind of links we need as we get right into the nitty gritty!

      Backslaps all round!

    116. Colin Dunn says:

      @ Rev. Stuart Campbell
      “Forgot I’d had a wee prune of the links column last week, and had one free slot. You’re in.”

      Woo! I’m famous, and honoured to be in such illustrious company 😉

      “PS Wee suggestion – how about a variant of “Do You Feel Lucky” with Boris, rather than Cameron, alongside Farage?”

      Yes, I wondered about that idea. I was working on that the week Boris had his famous interview on TV and thought that his bolt was completely shot and no-one would vote for him again, but his appeal doesn’t seem to have suffered at all. Maybe have to rethink that, then. Expect I’ll be updating posters and flyers regularly over the next year.



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