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Lies, lies, lies, lies, lies

Posted on November 07, 2013 by

We were hoping to come up with a subtler headline than that, but trying to analyse today’s media in fine detail is a bit like trying to translate a complex scientific report from Mandarin into Latin, when it’s taped onto the front of a locomotive that’s hurtling directly towards you at 125mph and you’re standing on the track with a telescope.


There’s horror as far as the eye can see on this morning’s newsstands, but the most despicable and inexcusable is the atrocity of a front page disfiguring the Daily Record. The cover of “Scotland’s Champion” is crammed with falsehoods and idiocy from top to bottom, but that’s not the half of it.

It starts before you even get to the main story. The sports flash in the top right steals a joke we made on Twitter last night, but which now makes absolutely no sense in the light of Ajax’s victory over Celtic lifting them off the bottom of their Champions’ League qualifying group. That’s just the madness warm-up, though.

“SUNK”, screams the gigantic headline over a picture of the Govan shipyard, above a paragraph which actually says “our Clyde yards were saved”. It then goes on to warn that another 2400 jobs are at risk “if orders for destroyers are scuppered by a Yes vote in next year’s referendum”.

Firstly, nobody’s ordering any destroyers. The Type 26 ships the UK will be ordering at some point this decade are frigates. The work-experience chimps apparently manning the Record these days appear to have confused them with the Type 45 destroyers BAE built in the last decade and which are already in service.

But the “threat” posed by independence is a shameful fabrication. In so much as it has any basis at all, it’s founded in claims which were repeated like a mantra by a succession of Unionist politicians across all of last night’s TV and radio coverage, and which are in themselves untrue on almost every level.

Ironically, as Scottish MPs fell over themselves to insist that the UK had never built a warship outside its own shores, only defence secretary Phillip Hammond – perhaps driven by some lingering public-school vestige of “British fair play” – mumbled the qualifier “in peacetime”. As alert readers of this site established yesterday, the Royal Navy HAS in fact commissioned warships from abroad, most notably Canada and the US, during the World Wars.

(The Unionist bias on last night’s broadcasts about the subject, incidentally, was crushing. Five anti-independence politicians were joined by a shop steward most recently seen in a “Better Together” leaflet sent out prior to a local election in Govan, with only the SNP’s Stewart Maxwell put up to contest the stream of groundless assertions about the catastrophic effect of independence on Scottish shipbuilding.)

But that semi-true statement, clung to by the likes of Alistair Carmichael, Michael Moore, Ian Davidson and Anas Sarwar like a drowning man clings to a piece of driftwood, is of no relevance anyway. Nobody cares what happened in the past, and in the future the Type 26s will HAVE to be built in “foreign” yards no matter what.

Carmichael ties himself in knots in the Record over that point:

“The order for 13 Type 26 vessels will not be placed until after the September 2014 referendum on independence. If that results in separation Carmichael said there would be no chance of the order being placed in Scotland.

He said: ‘Of course not, unless for some reason which we have never seen so far, the rest of the UK were to tender outside the UK. At that point Scotland would be in direct competition with Poland, South Korea, Singapore and so on.’

He added: ‘If Scotland were to vote yes, then the rest of the UK would be looking for shipyards within their jurisdiction and Portsmouth would be well placed.'”

Let’s take a moment to pick our way through that. Portsmouth is about to be closed as a shipbuilding concern, its skilled and highly-specialised workers scattered to the four winds. They’ll have to try to find jobs elsewhere, and if they can’t the government will have them working in Poundland for nothing in double-quick time.

Portsmouth, then, will NOT be “well placed” to pick up the Type 26 orders. It won’t have the staff, and presumably it’ll be fully occupied with maintenance work anyway, that being its new role. Restarting ship construction there with retrained workers would take years and cost uncountable millions.

So no matter what happens in September 2014, the UK (or rUK) will be building warships abroad. It might be on the Clyde, it might be in Poland, it might be in South Korea (where it already builds Royal Navy support vessels), it might be in India or Turkey, it might be in any number of places. But where it definitely WON’T be is in Portsmouth, or anywhere else in England, Wales or Northern Ireland.

A competitive tender would of course still risk the jobs at Govan and Scotstoun. But the Clyde has other advantages beyond proximity and experience. The UK government’s shipbuilder of choice is BAE Systems, and BAE Systems will still be a British company no matter what the referendum vote.


The EU defence procurement rules which Carmichael and others cited yesterday as “law” are covered by Article 346 of the Lisbon Treaty, which states:

“any Member State may take such measures as it considers necessary for the protection of the essential interests of its security which are connected with the production of or trade in arms, munitions and war material; such measures shall not adversely affect the conditions of competition in the common market regarding products which are not intended for specifically military purposes.”

It seems reasonable to posit that a UK government might legitimately consider it important to its security interests (and indeed its political ones) that its warship contracts be handled by a British company, no matter where that company chose to locate its business. The ships, after all, will still be “specifically military” items of hardware and the Treaty’s exemption will therefore still apply to them.

So it in fact simply ISN’T true that Scottish independence would legally result in the Type 26 contract being put out to international tender. The rUK could (and very likely would) seek a derogation from civilian procurement rules so that it could award the contract to BAE – not out of love for an independent Scotland, but because it made military, political and economic sense to do so.

But more than that, the location of any particular shipyard, inside or outside of the UK, is a complete red herring. Article 346 doesn’t say “You’re exempt from the procurement rules if you’re using contractors in your own country.” It says “You’re exempt from procurement rules if it’s for military or security contracts.”

So far as we can make out, the UK government could commission BAE to build the Type 26s anywhere it wanted without having to put the deal out to tender, because it’s the hardware that’s exempt, not the location.

Back on the newsstands, meanwhile, it’s business as usual.


Above is the Sun’s coverage of the story in England.


And that’s the rather different spin it puts on the story for Scottish readers.

The media in general is hugely confused about how to portray the decision. That piece in the Sun in England (by former Mirror hack Kevin Schofield), opens with the line “Ministers were last night accused of pandering to Scottish nationalists after it was announced that shipbuilding will end in Portsmouth – while Glasgow yards are spared.”

But on the BBC website yesterday, political correspondent Nick Robinson gave a very different and rather more logical account:

“A well-placed source told me that the government was ‘acutely conscious of the politics of the Clyde’ ahead of next year’s Scottish independence referendum.

Those campaigning against independence have often warned that it would lead to the closure of Scotland’s shipyards. A decision to close them now would be regarded as a political gift to Alex Salmond.”

It doesn’t seem rationally possible that keeping the Clyde yards open is “pandering to Scottish nationalists”, yet closing them would also have been a “political gift to Alex Salmond”. Only one of those things, at best, can be true. Perhaps the deputy political editor of the Daily Mail can help us out as a tiebreaker?



Impressively, Tim Shipman manages to play for both teams in the space of five minutes. Firstly the decision is “pandering to Scottish separatists”, then mere moments later it’s being taken in order to STOP Scotland from leaving the UK, by “buying it off”. Make your mind up, Tim.

(It would be remiss of us not to also include another couple of tweets for local colour, the first of which mysteriously vanished from Mr Shipman’s account at some point yesterday morning just before he renamed it.)



Over on the Telegraph, the paper’s deputy editor Benedict Brogan was rather clearer about which side the politics were coming down on, saying that the South of England “has learned today just how far David Cameron is prepared to go to keep the Scots sweet and maximise the chances of a vote in favour of the Union”.

The BBC’s coverage, meanwhile, has been astonishing. Despite Portsmouth and Glasgow losing almost identical numbers of jobs (940 to 835), and therefore the burden falling disproportionately highly on Scotland by a factor of 10, the narrative on the state broadcaster’s reporting was entirely of Portsmouth closing to “save” Scotland.

On Newsnight last night (20m 5s), the voiceover solemnly intoned “The government says this isn’t a matter of English jobs versus Scottish jobs. But for workers leaving this site in Portsmouth, it might feel very much like that”, while the studio pundit described shipbuilding economics and Scottish independence as “inseparable”.

At one point on this morning’s BBC Breakfast, presenter Charlie Stayt even referred to the non-Portsmouth job losses as taking place “Er… across the UK” (on the grounds that a tiny handful affected Filton in Bristol as well as Govan, Scotstoun and Rosyth).

We’ll leave the last word, though, to Ian Davidson, Labour MP for the Govan area, speaking on Scotland Tonight (7.10) on the day the Clyde lost 25% of its workforce:

RONA DOUGALL: Ian Davidson, 800 jobs have been lost here, but Govan and Scotstoun stay open.

IAN DAVIDSON: On balance, this is an excellent day for Scottish shipbuilding.

When Lou Reed died earlier this month, there was the usual speculation about whether his song “Perfect Day” was really about heroin addiction or just a nice romantic song for a lover, or both.

Ian Davidson’s idea of an “excellent day”, we suspect, refers more to his own political outlook than to that of the workers of BAE Govan and Scotstoun.

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187 to “Lies, lies, lies, lies, lies”

  1. Desimond says:

    Not seen much mention of this timing occuring while Wee Eck away in China. Pure coincidence or a Westminster leak threatened forcing BAEs hand?

  2. John G says:

    Can someone please explain to me why a country that is too wee, too poor and too stupid, needs to be “pandered to” so we remain part of the UK? As one that is too stupid, I just don’t get it. Anyone would think there was some unknown reason why it is so important for Scotland to be still part of UK!! Answers please on a postcard to Better Together!!

  3. Murray McCallum says:

    A good summary of what is being pedaled as “news” there.
    The BBC and UK media simply can’t accept a situation where Scots workers can compete and win against rUK. Obviously, the sly Scots have cheated and forced the less efficient and less capable Clyde shipyards upon everyone. It’s all to do with politics and nothing to do with economics (BAE Systems shareholders take note, though I see your share price is up this morning).
    Scots are basically forced to feel guilty despite losing 800 jobs as well as have various commentators and [proud] Scots [but] politicians heap uncertainty over the future of shipbuilding on the Clyde (regardless of the facts).

  4. Gillie says:

    But as can be heard on Call Kaye Scots are not buying into any of lies being spouted in the media.
    This is a done deal, no matter the referendum result Type 26 frigates will be built on the Clyde for the Royal (English) Navy. The (r)UK government have no choice – it is either Type 26 or nothing. 

  5. handclapping says:

    I hope Nicola has a leaflet going out in SW Glasgow
    6 November 2013 – 800 jobs to go
    Your Labour / Cooperative MP
    “This is an excellent day for Scottish shipbuilding”

  6. Luigi says:

    THe subtle message on the DR front page is almost as ridiculous as the hangman’s noose (“One day to save the Union”) that appeared on the eve of the 2007 Holyrood election.  And there are still ten months to go!  How silly is all this going to get?

  7. Alex Grant says:

    Good analysis Stu but I am certain the voters in Govan will only see it as the Unionists wish it to be seen. Unless the Scottish government can articulate how the Clyde can be protected Govan voters and lots of others will vote NO! The latter group at least can be persuaded to vote YES assuming a positive Defence and general economic case is articulated.
    What is certain is that England has now finally woken up to Scottish independence and their reaction will be totally emotional. It will be interesting to see how that plays?

  8. Luigi says:

    “This is an excellent day for Scottish shipbuilding”
    You’re joking!  He never actually said that, did he?

  9. Luigi says:

    What is certain is that England has now finally woken up to Scottish independence and their reaction will be totally emotional. It will be interesting to see how that plays?
    UKIP ?

  10. Macart says:

    No shocks from any of the usual suspects then? Narrative in place wind em up and let em go.
    No real softening of the press toward independence in evidence here. The Record though wins this years award for OTT reckless fear mongering and Galactic levels of stupidity. Quite a feat to manage both on one page.

  11. sneddon says:

    I was going to get angry but it’s another story to scare the natives with and is horribly like the 80’s all over again except it’s BAE acting the part of the govt.  There is no logic the media spin or unionist bollox.  The lack of mention of the relativly higher job losses in Scotland than pompey (tho’ not to lessen the lob losses there but my beef is with the media/unionists) are an example of the selective reporting on this matter.  The unionists are grasping at anything to do down the YES campaign.  But these workers are not stupid they’ve seen the decline in the industry while part of the union, they know BAE’s reputation and their dependence on MOD work and it won’t make any of them change their vote from YES to NO but possibly NO to DON”T KNOW or YES.  I consider this a strategic move by BAE to be in a good position to bid for Scottish Navy work.  Building ships rather than just repairing them.

  12. Alex Grant says:

    Luigi says:

    What is certain is that England has now finally woken up to Scottish independence and their reaction will be totally emotional. It will be interesting to see how that plays?
      UKIP ?
    Interesting idea but I thought they were a UK party??:)
    Seriously though I think you are correct

  13. NorthBrit says:

    Apparently the bias is all in your mind…
    Can’t resist reproducing this piece of irony though
    “[Nationalist websites] inevitably suffer from restricted resources and the obvious limits of a partisan outlook on robust, balanced reporting.”  This is someone writing in the Scotsman!

  14. Illy says:

    ohh, I’m not sure if that would be hilarious or terrifying.  UKIP winning Westminster… <shudder>
    Though if that looks possible that might be a good thing for the referendum.

  15. Luigi says:

     UKIP ?
    Interesting idea but I thought they were a UK party??:)
    Seriously though I think you are correct
    The voters of Portsmouth are very angry right now, but I can’t see them all rushing to  vote for the “One Nation” Labour party.

  16. Cath says:

    JoLa was on the radio this morning talking about how this demonstrated how great the union was etc, etc. Struck me if I was a shipyard worker facing 800 redundancies in my yard, I’d be really pissed off that the Labour leader – the one who’s supposed to stand up for the workers – was playing constitutional politics with not even a comment about the job losses in my yard, or that of my colleagues in Portsmouth. Regardless of whether I believed she was right or not, or whether I was a yes or no voter, it would piss me off.
    Also, I do wonder listening to the hostile, anti-Scottish reaction from many in Portsmouth, how many of them are GMB members and whether they know their subs are being used to fund Better Together?

  17. simian hoofer of the daily mail says:

    Notice the “Scotlands champion” bit at the top of the Daily Rancid………..who are those mugs trying to kid???
    A shameful rag that spouts lies and distortions like they are gospel fact, should be avoided like the plague.

  18. scottish_skier says:

    I see no mention of the BAE Clyde yards story on either BT or BT facebook.
    Tells you all you need to know about what an advert it has been for the union.

  19. ronnie anderson says:

    Any, CARTOONISTS oot there IAN DIVVY DAVIDSON WI A CLAW HAMMER ER HIZ HEID & WORDING WERE CLAWING BACK OOR £ 120,000+ yer TV appearance fees & CLAWIN BACK OOR VOTES .Put it up on Yes Scot I ll print a load aff fur use when I go to the STH GEN HOSP

  20. Bunter says:

    Why is no one asking BAE what it thinks will happen with a Yes vote

  21. Brian Powell says:

    The pro-Unionist politicians and media are sounding like Mafia protection racketeers, “Your safer and better with us, cos anything can happen to your family and job”.

  22. kininvie says:

    What is it about warships?
    The UK is a founder signatory of the convention setting up the Organisation for Joint Armament Cooperation
    Under this convention, the UK is happily participating in:
    The A400M airlifter programme (6 other nations)
    Cobra weapon location system (3 other nations)
    FSAF – PAMM surface-to-air missile  (2 other nations)
    Meanwhile, the French and Italians are happily working together on a new generation of multi-role frigates.
    So why does the UK govt adopt this ridiculous position that Royal Navy warships must be built in Britain?  It’s probably something to do with Nelson.

  23. faolie says:

    It’s as we expected though, isn’t it. It makes me feel sad really. But there was bound to be something that woke the English up to the fact that there’s a referendum that’s going to result in Scotland leaving the UK. So what’s just as noteable as these shameful headlines in the Daily Record is the reaction in England of, pretty much, ‘why don’t these bloody Scots just f*** off and the sooner the better’.
    Any more news like this and these sentiments will rise in England, and the UK goverment’s going to find it harder to hold the line, especially with UKIP’s threat in the Euro elections. Wonder how these sentiments will be reported in the Record and the rest of the Scottish press? ‘English say f*** off to Scots’  has a nice screaming headline touch.

  24. Andy says:

    Since the Scottish Royal Navy predated the English one can we revert to Royal Navy and ask the rUK to rename theirs to something else?

  25. Robert Kerr says:

    Yes a great day for naval shipbuilding on the Clyde. 
    Fairfields in Govan built HMS Howe

    The present day Govan lads get to build patrol boats.
    I already linked to them on the earlier thread.

  26. JLT says:

    While listening to ‘Call Kaye’ this morning in the van, a woman phoned into the show (they were discussing the future of shipbuilding in Scotland), when she mentioned a point, and I think it’s a brilliant point, that so far, no one has said.
    We are hearing folk say that if we vote ‘Yes’, then the order for the Type 26 will be taken away from the Clyde shipyards because we are no longer in the UK, blah, blah, blah …you know …all that sort of nonsense.
    Okay then. Scotland is no longer a friendly nation within the greater boundaries of the UK. Remove the Trident submarines also then. Why does the UK have their submarines in the waters of a nation it no longer deems to be a ‘true friend’.
    The argument for the BT team and ‘No’ dies on it’s feet immediately with that argument. They cannot say that Scotland can’t build ships for the rUK, while parking its subs in that same nation.
    If we vote ‘Yes’, then the threat that the order will be leaving the Clyde will not happen because of the fear of having the submarines kicked out of Scotland also.

  27. scottish_skier says:

    TNS ‘No’ 2013 trend:
    Mar 52%
    Apr 51% 
    Aug 47%
    Sep 44% 
    Oct 43%
    Slow but steady.
    Of course ‘polls show nothing has changed’. So just move along now…

  28. Les Wilson says:

    I heard on passing the TV to a man being interviewed, I did not catch his name but he was given some importance in the interviewed. I stopped to hear what he had to say. He concluded that shipbuilding on Military contracts only are a short term fix for workers. He explained that in between contracts there was always a slump and that is how these things work.

    Everyone gets busy as a contract comes in BUT, it is open to cancellation depending on the political problems of the day, lack of money being but one. This results in the workers having to go through a worrying time in between contracts, or worrying that a contract could be cancelled. Thus meaning perhaps their will be lay offs yet again.  

    He said that these uncertainties are par for the course when only dealing with Military Contracts, asked what could be done about this, he replied that he agreed with Nicola Sturgeon in this, that diversification was the way to go for a continuous work and the future long term of the Scottish yards. Have to say, that does seem to be the solution to the ups and downs of the Clyde workers, who deserve a better way.

    O/T A little thing I noticed on Newsnight last night, again about the clyde. They interviewed Nicola and she was explaining her views. this was taped in the Scottish Parliament earlier in the day. She said that this was a wake up call for the yards, and diversification was the way to improve the work for the yards. However on Newsnight her interview was cut right after she said ” it is a wakeup call” her interview was cut. They cut out what she went on to say about diversification. In doing so it made what she said, appear as a short warning to the yards and could be taken as a negative. More mind games from OUR BBC.

  29. Dcanmore says:

    An independent Scotland needs around 70 military vessels for its navy… hello Govan, are you listening? There will be work on the Clyde for the next 25 years guaranteed and that is building nevermind the continuing maintenance and refitting work. If Scotland votes to stay in this toxic union then the shipyards will close forever by 2020.

  30. chalks says:

    This is where the free market gets you.

    Anyways, I may have interpreted Mr Cameron’s remark ‘without an indy scotland, we wouldn’t have any warships’ to be an admission that Scotland would continue to build the frigates etc…..or was that just me?

  31. GP Walrus says:

    What is clear is that the only British naval shipbuilder, BAE, has concentrated its construction facility in Glasgow. If the Type 26s are to be built by a British company, that construction work must therefore take place on the Clyde. The independence referendum is irrelevant to that.

    Anyway the “foreign country” rule is a red herring. If Eire is not regarded as a foreign country, I don’t see why Scotland should be.

  32. Alba4Eva says:

    Hey JLT, that might just be it… maybe Westminster are making contingency plans for re-locating the Trident WMD’s to Portsmouth after the YES vote?  

  33. faolie says:

    @dcanmore: An independent Scotland needs around 70 military vessels for its navy..
    Exactly! Vote Yes to build ships for the Royal Scottish Navy.

  34. Iain says:

    Meanwhile the Record’s ‘mother’ paper, the Mirror, has absolutely nothing on shipyards (Portsmouth or Clyde) online – zilch, nada, zero. It indicates how uncomfortable what passes for the Left in England is nowadays with anything to do with Scotland and/or economic policy. Miliband is visiting Scotland today, presumably they’ll have to give some coverage to whatever equivocating, One Nation guff he comes away with.

  35. Cath says:

    “They cannot say that Scotland can’t build ships for the rUK, while parking its subs in that same nation. If we vote ‘Yes’, then the threat that the order will be leaving the Clyde will not happen because of the fear of having the submarines kicked out of Scotland also.”
    That goes the other way as well of course. “Keep our Trident and we’ll leave our orders with your shipyards. Insist on kicking it out and we’ll need to invest heavily in Porstmouth and other places in the SE anyway…”
    Ultimately though, all these things will come down to political negotiations, and expediency. If the Clyde is the right place to build those ships, that’s where they’ll be built. That’s a commercial decision for BAE.
    The Westminster government will own nothing to Scotland after a Yes vote in terms of future contracts. But I suspect a Tory government will be secretly perfectly happy it no longer has the headache of “British shipyards” to worry about keeping afloat artificially and expensively. I’d go as far as to say that was more of the politics behind this decision than anything else. With Portsmouth closed and Scotland independent there would be no UK shipbuilders requiring subsidies and work would go to the best bid, wherever that was. I can’t see any Tory seeing that as a bad thing – it’s their basic policy.

  36. JLT says:

    This is just car crash telly again. Lamont found seriously wanting again. She must hate Thursday lunchtimes now. Sturgeon has annihilated her!

  37. Peter A Bell says:

    Alistair Carmichael and others make no sense when they claim that an rUK decision not to award warship contracts to Scottish shipbuilders post-independence is “a matter of law”. The law to which they refer provides an exemption from EU competition rules in the case of war materials. Which means that the rUK government can place the orders wherever it chooses.

    Carmichael and his fellow British nationalists are trying to make out that the law means the contracts would have be put out to tender and that the Clyde yards would therefore be competing with the likes of Poland and South Korea. But the law actually means precisely the opposite. It means that the rUK government would NOT have to put the contacts out to tender.

    These Britnats want us to believe that an rUK would CHOOSE to give preference to a foreign company and a foreign shipyard in preference to a British firm with an operation in Scotland. How credible is that?

    Bearing in mind that there will be no suitable capacity in rUK with the end of shipbuilding at Portsmouth, and that the rUK government will not be bound either by competition law or economic considerations, what reason could they have for giving preference to another “foreign” nation over Scotland?

    Even if we accept that Scotland will be “foreign” after independence – a prospect which troubles me not at all – there are surely degrees of foreignness. I’m pretty sure those banging on about how foreign Scotland will be after independence would readily allow that Canada, for example, is less foreign than South Korea. So, if foreignness is the massive issue that the British nationalists make out, why would they choose a nation that is decidedly foreign over one which is barely foreign at all?

    Clearly, the objections to awarding contracts to Scotland have nothing to do with this foreignness issue. So we are entitled to ask of Ian Davidson, and others perhaps slightly less odious, what it is that motivates their vehement opposition to shipbuilding contracts being awarded to Scotland after independence. There is neither legal constraint nor rational reason for this position. So how do they justify it?

  38. JLT says:

    The subs won’t be going anywhere for a long time …even post indy. We will rent out Faslane to the rUK until they find another home. That is the truth when you look at the hard facts.
    The rUK won’t remove the order from the Clyde post Yes. Not with the threat that to do so, would lead to the Scots demanding that the Subs be removed straight away also.
    Today, the BT mob are realising that yesterday is actually a defeat for them. They have no stick to wave at us. What they think is a stick, is actually a feather duster!

  39. call me dave says:

    Comprehensive thrashing for JoLa and was certainly put on the back foot.
    Ruthie a bit neutral and hurried off stage.  Wullie R , where does he dig up the questions, irrelevance personified.  The NO sayers are squirming for a foot hold but not getting any traction.  Well done NS.

  40. JLT says:

    Call me Dave,
    Nicola will make a great First Minister. Absolute no nonsense from her. Hard facts hammered home.
    If we do finally gain Independence, I get on my knees at this moment and thank God, that the first two Frist Ministers will be Alex and Nicola. It guarantees sensible leadership for at least the first 10 to 15 years!
    Compare that with a ‘No’ vote, and having Ms Lamont, Champion at the art of ‘hidey go seek’ being our First Minister in a Scottish Administration (because Labour would call it that again instead of Government)

  41. James Morton says:

    Ever decreasing circles as the case for union slowly but surely vanishes up its own arse. The first argument was that Union protected these jobs, but now its, Union stopped it from being so bad. When/if the plant closes I wonder what the argument would be then?

  42. David Halliday says:

    A pedant writes: Rona “Dougall”.

  43. Edward says:

    Just a wee tongue in cheek comment – Wouldn’t it be interesting if the First Minister comes back from China with the news that the Chinese are going to set up a ship building yard in Scotland, to build a wide diversity of ships, just a thought and it amused me 🙂

  44. HandandShrimp says:

    In my view BAE took a commercial decision and the politics are a Better Together add on. People seem to forget that there will be a huge amount of work for workers in the rUK supplying kit for the Type 26 frigates. Are they really saying that they would pull the order from the only remaining rUK warship builder and give the whole shooting match to a French, German or Korean frigate builder? Portsmouth was never consider a likely contender for the Type 26 and Portsmouth knew that. That doesn’t change whether we are independent or not.
    People do need to be alive to the fact that these ships could easily be delayed until 2020 regardless. An independent Scotland in 2016 might want to consider asking BAE to build 6 or so of the new Off Shore patrol boats for Scotland in the interim. These boats would actually be work horses of patrolling the North Sea rather than frigates which are a much bigger stick and more likely to be involved in UN duties and the like should Scotland decide to obtain a small number of such ships down the line. 

  45. Edward
    I had been thinking that all morning.  Wondering if he has some trick up his sleeve.  He managed to flog Scottish Football so anything is possible.

  46. david says:

    Just a wee tongue in cheek comment – Wouldn’t it be interesting if the First Minister comes back from China with the news that the Chinese are going to set up a ship building yard in Scotland, to build a wide diversity of ships, just a thought and it amused me 
    The S on his chest is for Salmond.

  47. JasonF says:

    With about 1000 people made redundant with the closure of Portsmouth, and 2,400 to be left on the Clyde after layoffs, it would seem that there weren’t enough workers at Portsmouth for BAE’s needs.

  48. Desimond says:

    Can someone explain to me why exactly Willie Rennie was on Newsnight Scotland last night offering his tuppence ( which amounted to “ah want value for money!” ) on the contracts for Frigates.
    Im no fan but shouldnt they have a Tory on rather than a wee diddy Lib Demmer?

  49. HandandShrimp says:

    John Robertson is vying with Davidson to be chair choob I see. If we vote for independence BAE becomes a Scottish company then? That is a neat trick. How many others do take over this way? Tesco?

  50. msean says:

    You know we’re all better together, when on telly they can’t even  be bothered to get pronunciation right for Scottish place names even after 300 years.Anyone know where scotch town or go van are?

  51. @ScotsVote says:

    I was on the Telegraph website last night posting comments.  Man, was that fun.  Some of the stuff these guys come up with is staggering. We need to argue (fight) on their home turf. Plentry of content on this website and businessforscotland to show them.

  52. Cath says:

    The first argument was that Union protected these jobs, but now its, Union stopped it from being so bad. 
    Except even that doesn’t stack up with what’s actually being said. Which is that the threat of independence stopped it from being so bad. 
    Wouldn’t it be interesting if the First Minister comes back from China with the news that the Chinese are going to set up a ship building yard in Scotland, to build a wide diversity of ships
    I had the very same thought myself this morning. And you know what, I wouldn’t put it past him 🙂 He does it deliberately, you know.

  53. Another London Dividend says:

    Masterful performace by Nicola at FMQs.
    Can someone please post a link to the reference Nicola made regarding the Secretary of State FOR Scotland quoted in Portsmouth newspaper about Type 26 Frigate jobs going to Portsmouth if Scotland votes YES in 2014?

  54. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    The only possible fly in the ointment I have seen, so far, is the following;
    As BAE were exploring co-operation with Brazilian and Indian shipyards on the basis they would either build the frigate under licence or perhaps as a partner in the UK supply.
    That is to say build the floating bit and bring it the UK, under tow, to be fitted out here including the added value components of weapons and electronics.
    The Clyde yards would be competing against cheap labour manufacture with the fitting out being done at Portsmouth at the dockyard?
    Anybody out there who knows more about naval construction that I do, not very difficult, able to comment on that scenario?

  55. Murray McCallum says:

    Anyone know where scotch town or go van are?
    Surprisingly, both are a relatively short drive to Lake Lomond and the Trossacks national park.

  56. gavin lessells says:

    Can anyone explain to me why Calmac built a ferry in Poland with our money and it did`nt work very well on arrival?

  57. Embradon says:

    JLT says
    “This is just car crash telly again. Lamont found seriously wanting again. She must hate Thursday lunchtimes now. Sturgeon has annihilated her!”
    FMQs was embarrasing. I almost felt sorry for JoLa – she is out of her league. Can Labour not find a cooncil job for her out of the spotlight.
    A boxing referee would have stopped the contest after Nicola’s second reply (which was sensible and informative as well as sharp) but no – Jola comes back leading with her chin.
    Never mind Hen – Alex will be back next week. He appears to be getting bored with knocking you down.

  58. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Murray McCallum
    You mean Sunny Go van?

  59. Atypical_Scot says:

    The idea that BAE has any Britishness about it is not borne out by the company’s oversees operations and its multiple charges of international corruption. 
    BAE Systems defines its “home markets” to be Australia, India, Saudi Arabia, the UK and the US.

    The India bit is worth noting in light of Wing’s readers investigations.

  60. Ellie says:

    On another slightly worrying note did anyone note the story on the BBC about the Home Office trying to deport the American born Head Teacher of a Dumfriesshire School?  Is trying to get rid of successful professionals who want to work and/or immigrate to Scotland now a Home Office policy?

  61. Kenny Campbell says:

    Herald English based ‘Scots’ really throwing fog around on comments pages, like whirling dervishes, they’d get a 10 from big Len on Strictly for the deft footwork. Inventive stuff.

  62. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Can someone please post a link to the reference Nicola made regarding the Secretary of State FOR Scotland quoted in Portsmouth newspaper about Type 26 Frigate jobs going to Portsmouth if Scotland votes YES in 2014?”

    Um, there’s one in the very article you’ve just commented on. DOESN’T ANYONE CLICK ETC ETC ETC ETC?

  63. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “A pedant writes: Rona “Dougall”.”


  64. Fi says:

    Nicola was on fire today!!! Brilliant!
    Willie Rennie was terrible today “I was on defence committee” really?? Thank god he’s not there now!! I feel safer already knowing he’s oot! 

  65. @ScotsVote says:

    Post 2015 Cameron will negotiate entry to the EU, for him Scottish Referendum is win-win, Labour loose 40 MPs or he gets to bring Scotland (within the UK) to the negotiating table: oil, renewable energy, whisky exports, water, science. This referendum is a MUST win. If we think our place within the UK is causing problems, imagine our place within the UK within the EU.  Fishing, you want that…no problem but we get City of London tax breaks, we want cabinet level positions and I want a shoe in nomination for EU President in 5 years. We don’t need to build ships, our shipbuilding industry isn’t what it used to be, shame that. Here these Type 26 Frigate’s we’ve designed are good sellers, India wants some, we can build them in France, Germany whatever but we want to be central FX dealer in the Chinese Yuan… 

  66. Big Jock says:

    Somehow the MSM have managed to turn what is an English Tory government decision to Axe 800 jobs. To being all the fault of the SNP. You should hear the people in my office repeating the headlines in the paper and calling Sturgeon a clown.Instead of blaming the government for running down the shipyards and trying to gerrymander the vote. I did all I could to contain my anger. There is no point in arguing with people who’s sole economic knowledge is gleaned from tabloid newspapers. It does make me despair at some of my felllow Scots. The bigger picture is that even if shipbuilding ended tomorrow. This is a microscopic element of Scotlands jobs and economy. These jobs are ultimately funded by us the taxpayer and actually cost us money to keep as we are relying on MOD contracts only. That’s not an industry its government employment.

  67. John grant says:

    Btp that is my conclusion of what will happen , give the Scottish yards the three ship contract as sweetener for the referendum secure a no vote , defence review 2015 either cancel type 26 altogether or your scenario exactly , goodbye scotstoun and govan. 

  68. liz says:

    If there is a NO vote because people buy into the fear factor, there will be at least 40% of the population who will hate the MSM and the BBC.
    I know that sounds strong but I think it will be the case.
    If we were fighting on a level playing field we would have to accept a No as fair and square but we are not.
    I actually believe than some of the NO folk would feel the same as no-one likes to be pressurised into doing anything through fear.

  69. Embradon says:

    The fundamental issue with the construction of T26 is that Portsmouth does not have the capacity to build them – even now and has no room to expand.

    Because of the customary political and MoD cock-up the T26 will not follow on from the Aircraftless Carriers.

    If the patrol boat contract (which it could have handled easily) had gone to Portsmouth then the Glasgow yards would have had to close – end of UK capacity.

    More worrying, I believe is the possibility that few (or no) T26 will be built in UK as, indyref notwithstanding, the MoD simply won’t be able to afford them without a joint venture with another Govt.

    But – of course – that announcement will be after Sept 2014.

  70. roberto says:

    question time should be good tonight.

  71. jim mitchell says:

    There’s a point that I don’t think I have seen mentioned yet, whilst  I am genuinely sorry for anybody ANYWHERE who will lose their job following yesterdays announcement, there are some of us old enough to remember several situations where Scottish jobs were lost in preference to jobs retained elsewhere, and we can even recall unionist politicians, especially the ones in Scotland, trying to justify the losses.  

  72. HandandShrimp says:

    I may have already said this (having a senior moment) but I am of the view that Davidson is doing a sterling job in killing the Union. The bile and antagonism towards Scotland is incredible and it is primarily because Better Together have, inadvertently perhaps, portrayed this decision as a sop to keep Scotland in the Union.
    However, I am not convinced this is a good thing. This tack will cause trouble down the line whether the vote is Yes or No. Pithy comments about Davidson being a choob and therefore not responsible for his actions will cut little ice in the editorial offices of the English papers  

  73. Gillie says:

    From what I have read so far on other sites it is quite clear that yesterday was a BLACK DAY for Better Together.
    This unionist myth about the Scottish shipyards being under threat from independence has been well and truly Scotched. The tie up between BAE and the MoD means that the Clyde is the only place on this planet where the Royal Navy can have warships built.  

  74. Scaraben says:

    A little bit of wishful thinking – it would be wonderfully ironic if, following Scottish independence and after the usual dithering by Westminster, they finally decide to have some frigates built on the Clyde, only to be told they will have to wait a few years as the yards will be too busy building ships for a Scottish navy. Apart from warships, Scotland will also need coastguard and fishery protection vessels. Look at the Norwegian coastguard ships, very lightly armed but capable in an emergency of towing a 200,000 ton tanker. Norway also has 5 heavy frigates, and ‘coastal corvettes’ armed with missiles and capable of up to 60 knots in calm conditions.
    By the way, it seems that the only Royal Navy vessels deployed to protect shipping in and around Scotland are two ‘harbour and estuary’ patrol boats armed with 7.62 mm machine guns. The only patrol boat based on the east coast is an unarmed training vessel, which would not be much use if there was a threat to North Sea oil installations.

  75. wilson5bh says:

    Re Scotland as a “foreign country”, can’t remember where I read it (here or Newsnet) but the Ireland Act 1949 declared that Ireland was not to be considered as a foreign country – and that was after an armed uprising that achieved independence.

    Scotland, as a peaceful nation, seeking/achieving independence by the ballot box, and wishing friendly relations with rUK, should expect no less.

    Problem solved for shipbuilding contracts and for several other issues.

  76. @ScotsVote says:

    If there’s a NO vote I will be one of the 40% who feel it has been stolen, carried out by Labour to protect vested interests.  The repercussions of which will be un-missable. You think things are bad now, imagine 20 years remaining within the UK, have you seen the trajectory of the Govt Net Debt situation. I mean, UK pensions are in serious difficulty. The UK needs to borrow at long term duration to fund current expenditure, and will do for a very very long time. The ONLY alternative is for rUK to have an earth shattering moment and for the voters to come to their senses and get real. Scotland MUST Vote for Independence to make decisions based on our priorities with the resources, systems, beliefs and confidence we have to tackle many of the issues that need resolved, unfortunately many of which have resulted from being within the Union.

  77. Embradon says:

    Murray McCallum
    Are “Suni Go vans” the the advertising vehicles the Borders Agency were driving about?

  78. @ScotsVote says:

    What was also interesting for me from Newsnight Scot last night. (1) Willie Rennie “if I have the honour of serving in an Independent Scotland…” (2) The Govan shop steward, Jamie. He was on the verge of getting out his chair and handing out a doin’ when he was explaining that he’s seen the treatment of the Clyde first hand. That he sees straight through the motives behind these things, although he was quick to point out he doesn’t get political “however” he was, as I say, on the verge of focused rage when he pointed out any meddling with these ship contracts would result in, well he just left it:  “these ships will be built on the Clyde”. For me this is 2 things, (i) he is not swallowing the politicing around Independence & (ii) he is wise to the likes of Labour and the ConDems motives. This was great to see and it is this type of leader WE need to have to sway the masses in favour of Independence.

  79. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Chuckles Embradon
    Sunny Go Van, twinned with Leith-sur-mer.

  80. ayemachrihanish says:

    Rev,  another example of why we are NOT better together
    Today Scotland – 835 shipyard jobs SUNK – because of a suffocating (SUFFOCATING) dependence on whimsical MOD orders
    Today London – 12,000 – yes 12,000 direct NEW jobs from the opening of the UK’s newest deep-sea container port on the north bank of the Thames.
    If in doubt watch this  but more importantly – listen to what’s said
    Contrast how (and where) proper state asset infrastructure investment creates economic life – not suffocates it.
    Fact! Other than MOD work – Westminster do not want shipbuilding in the UK as a vibrant shipbuilding industry would only create progress in Scotland… progress being the opposite of poverty!      

  81. Big Jock says:

    Wait for the white paper! There will be a requirement for warships within that. This will be the answer to their threat. They might even need a few more. Lets face it Govan will be closed at the end of the MOD contract in a few years following a no vote. But if a whole country can be bribed for a thousand secured jobs then what chance do we have. We have probably now lost the votes of the shipyard workers and their families thanks to MSM. This will not weaken the Yes vote as we are only talking about 3 to 4000 people directly involved in shipbuilding.

  82. Robert Kerr says:

    We have enough sectarianism of our own without the “religion of peace” stuff.

  83. creigs1707repeal says:

    This great ‘Union’ didn’t save the jobs or the yard in Portsmouth. When the UK Treasury finally admits that the UK is broke and spending money it doesn’t have and taking loans it can’t afford to repay, the ‘Union’ won’t think twice about sending the Clyde yards the same way as Portsmouth. It’s only a matter of time. 
    With a Scottish Navy requiring around 70 vessels (including 5 Type 26 frigates annouced by Nicola Sturgeon yesterday) and the freedom to diversify into other areas, what have Scottish shipbuilders got to fear about independence? It is surely a greater risk remaining in Banrupt Britain which will most assuredly find a means to pull the plug on these contracts after a NO result.
    YES Scotland.

  84. braco says:

    Strip away all the inevitable anti Indy spin and bias of the reporting and what do we have? We have shipbuilding capabilities continuing on Scottish soil. We have the sole shipbuilding capabilities anywhere in the UK of GB and NI, retained on the Clyde owned by BEA a British company.
    This seems all good to me. Come Indy, BAE will be able to count on orders from the Scottish Navy, they will be given the orders for the rUK Frigates, as BAE will still be a British Company and rUK’s main military procurement contractor. Or am I missing something?
    Could Scotland and rUK not enter into joint procurement for the frigates (if frigates is what a Scottish Navy would want?) on the condition that they be built in the British Isles, ie The Clyde.
    All this spin will be dead by the time of the referendum. Imagine we had been trying to sell a concept of an Indy Scotland with no future shipbuilding and no future petrochemical capabilities! Just as a matter of central belt working class self esteem it would have been disastrous.
    This is simply a case of Good News, Bad Press!  (strategically speaking only, as the loss of jobs at the yards is absolutely terrible news for those involved and the area, and my heart goes out to them).

  85. Mr Angry says:

    I find it rather strange that the rUK would not have ships built in a foreign yard ie Govan but is quite prepared to store its nuclear subs in a foreign country ie Scotland.

    The ‘inside information’ that I have is that Govan will close within 3 years of the vote no matter which was Scotland votes. There are NO votes in Govan or Scotland for the conservatives. I remember them moving the sub repairs from Rosyth to Davenport just to win a westminster seat back from Labour. Thousands of jobs lost and millions spent on building new dry docks…..but the tories won the seat.

  86. Cath says:

    If there’s a NO vote I will be one of the 40% who feel it has been stolen, carried out by Labour to protect vested interests”
    I agree. And I think the “carried out by Labour” is the vital statement in this. The Tories have already lost Scotland, and Labour are in serious trouble up here. If it’s a No vote many of us will be in the position of being equally as anti-Labour as we are anti-Tory. There already isn’t much difference in policy. But on the referendum for the first time in my life I’m in a position where I have more respect for the Tories. They are at least honest and consistent. I disagree with them entirely but we know where they stand.
    Labour, OTOH are lying, opportunistic, blackmailing, threatening and just coming across as irrationally filled with hatred for Scotland and its electorate and irrationally against independence for no reason other than their own careers. There is no way I could ever vote Labour again within the UK. I’d love to see a real Labour in Scotland, driven by people like Labour for Indy, Dennis Canavan, the RIC and Jimmy Reid Foundation folk. But Labour (UK) will have been instrumental in robbing us of that if it’s a NO vote.
    Where are we constitutionally if almost half the electorate feel similarly about the only 3 parties we can ever be run by?

  87. Ian Brotherhood says:

    While it’s horrible to see anyone losing their job, let’s not forget that the only thing the BT mouthpieces have in common is fear of the same – it’s revolting to see Labour, Tory and Lib-Dems lined-up at the top table in BT meetings, like peas in a pod, when they’re normally at one another’s necks – it doesn’t take Stephen Hawking to work out why.
    Tomorrow night they’ll be in Stevenston Community Centre, launching Better Together North Ayrshire. They’ve got the gall to come into our communities, into our neighbourhood centres, and try to frighten us while keeping their fingers crossed under the table that we’ll fall for their pish?
    It’s not working any more. They know it. We are not afraid of them. And we’ll be there tomorrow evening to let them know we’re not.
    Let them lose their jobs for a change. Big difference is, they’ll get no sympathy from anyone.

  88. @ScotsVote says:

    I feel very strongly that this form of “direct action” arguing (non physical fighting, to be clear) is the ONLY way we can raise the level of discussion around these subjects. Did you see or not see the Million Masked March on Westminster at Halloween? Not a single mention on BBC, absolutely shameful, Big Brother, controlled State Media, they all cover this type of behavour. Revolution is only a different word for progress.

  89. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Iain Macwhirter blows the nonsense completely out of the water in today’s Herald.
    I you imagine a huge company like BAE would take on a contract to build a fleet of frigates on the basis that next year that the contract might be taken off it you would hsve to be a half wit  

  90. chalks says:

    Some ex Tory Defence minister now getting a bit confused over Article 346, stating that they wouldn’t be able to give us the work and cite this law as such…..when they could as they could argue that the contract was signed prior to indy AND it is in their security interests…..

  91. Jeannie says:

    If Scotland votes for independence, rUK will have less income with which to pay for the frigates.  On the other hand, Scotland will have MORE money to pay for the frigates.  Both countries would like to have the frigates.  So what could be more sensible than to share the cost – after all, it’s for the defence of a common island that both countries share. 
    From the UK’s point of view, it makes sense to make this decision post-indy vote.  Maybe you won’t want two frigates any more, maybe you’ll just want the one.  Sounds to me like this issue will become another one for post-indy negotiations.  Also, Scottish shipyards will need to diversify in the future – as will Portsmouth.  A win-win situation, I think, for BAE. 
    No matter which way Scotland votes next year, there will be a UK General Election the following year.  If the English media are against Scottish shipyards getting the contract, I suspect we won’t get it – or at least a decision will be put off till after the UK election.  The Tories won’t care about media coverage in Scotland about this issue as they know there’s no votes in it for them – or not many, at any rate.  It will be interesting to see how Labour play it, though.

  92. Murray McCallum says:

    Restructuring of the Naval Shipbuilding business
    “Following detailed discussions about how best to sustain the long-term capability to deliver complex warships, BAE Systems has agreed with the UK Ministry of Defence that Glasgow would be the most effective location for the manufacture of the future Type 26 ships. Consequently, and subject to consultation with trade union representatives, the Company proposes to consolidate its shipbuilding operations in Glasgow with investments in facilities to create a world-class capability, positioning it to deliver an affordable Type 26 programme for the Royal Navy.”
    My emphasis.  This is from the BAE website. Are BAE lying to their investors?

  93. Atypical_Scot says:

    @Murray MacCallum
    BAE Systems operates two shipyards in Glasgow, Govan and Scotstoun, currently employing 3,200 people. These sites are supporting the manufacture of the Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers and design of the Type 26 Global Combat Ship.
    the detailed specification for the vessel, with a manufacturing contract expected to be awarded at the end of 2014.

  94. Kev says:

    Spot on mate with the BBC and as far as I can see they have ignored the issue of the listening station on the British Emabssy in Berlin used to eavesdrop on conversations within and around the German parliament building..Imagine if this was the other way round and the Germans had set-up a monitoring station near Westminster, the BBC would probably be calling for War!

  95. ronnie anderson says:

    Peter A Bell, maybe its because we re a different species of FURRINER  Great post BTW

  96. Edward says:

    Another London dividend – here you go

  97. Tobias Hendry says:

    So BEA give an unconditional commitment of work for the Glasgow yards and the Scottish Secretary and Glasgow Labour MP’s argue that there should be conditions.
    And they think this will win them support?  Will the penny ever drop that the Scottish voters aren’t mugs?

  98. simian hoofer of the daily mail says:

    At the end of the day, do they honestly think people are going to vote no because of the unionists making threats about closing a shipyard which has already been decimated under the unions watch. By and large Scottish people don’t take to kindly to threats, these clowns are making a very grave error indeed.

  99. Andy-B says:

    Good disection of a mis-leading article.
    On FMQ’s today, Nicola Sturgeon (Alex is away on business in Hong Kong), produced a document taken straight from the RN webpage, which states, that the type 26 Frigates will be built, in Australia, not in Scotland.
    Johan Lamont couldn’t or wouldn’t answer to this accusation, Nicola Sturgeon then went on to say, that BAE Govan/Scotstoun, couldn’t rely on just MoD orders for survival, and that diversity, would be the answer to saving Scottish shipyards long term.

  100. Training Day says:

    I agree with those above who say that the Unionist establishment in Scotland/the ‘Scottish’ MSM is sowing a bitter seed with their constant barrage of lies, misrepresentations and calumnies.  How can any of us accept a No vote which is achieved through fear, blackmail, threats and a supine refusal on the part of our media to have an open and democratic debate?
    Do the Unionist politicians and their stooges in the MSM even care anymore about the damage they are wreaking upon Scotland’s social fabric?  As long as they are protected (and rewarded) by the British establishment, it seems not.   

  101. Murray McCallum says:

    Based on the facts as presented by BAE Systems, closing the Clyde shipyards would cease to ensure BAE’s strategy of “positioning it to deliver an affordable Type 26 programme for the Royal Navy.”
    The desperate underlying current of “it’s the Union with UK that won it” is nauseating. It’s down to a skilled, experienced workforce in a good logistical location with adequate capacity. That is not going to change if Scotland votes Yes or No.
    As already mentioned by others, the real challenge is to find more diverse work for Scotland’s “world-class” shipbuilding capability.

  102. crisiscult says:

    Inspired by all the increasingly childish and petulant insults and threats floating around in the media, and worse in the comments on Telegraph, Daily Mail, and Scotsman newspapers, I thought I’d have a little look at the constitutional status of Isle of Man, and Channel Islands, who seem to be very British and work very well with the UK, despite not being run by Westminster. Now I’m not saying we should be a Crown Dependency, but I did come across this

    Does Scotland really have to be towed out to the North Atlantic somewhere and set adrift as punishment for divorcing Westminster?

  103. ronnie anderson says:

    msean, its no  go van  they meant wan o they go go buses ken the wans ye hire fur stag nights full of Greasy Pole Chancers noo if they were Pole Dancers it wid be ful bit theres nane roon here

  104. TJenny says:

    Could Oor Eck be negotiating with the Chinese to build a shipyard, say in the NE around Aberdeen, small to start with, but with room for expansion after indy? Would we allowed to do this, or is it reserved to Westminster? Surely if we can handle tendering for ferries, we are alowed to build Scottish Fishing Protection vehicles, oil rig feeder ships etc. 
    We could then offer Jobs in the new shipyard to those who are having to leave Govan yards.  I understand that the older workers have said they’ll go to protect the apprentices (how admirable is that). Therefore they could be supervising new apprentices as well as hands on work.
    Don’t know how feasible this is at the moment though as Scotland doesn’t get much money for investment fom Westminster, but perhaps SG could issue shares to Scots, to help start-up funding.(A sort of crowdfunding 🙂 )

  105. Craig P says:

    There is a bit of confusion over Article 346. Unionist politicians seem to take it as meaning the UK *must* build warships in UK. Not true. 
     It is a clause that allows warships to be exempt from EU competition law. It just gives procurement the right to choose the local option (or any other option) as well as the cheapest option. 

  106. Robert Kerr says:

    @ Training Day
    I agree wholeheartedly.
    It will not be the end ofanything if there is a NO vote. The YES people will not just go home and cry.
    The situation is beyond repair for SLAB and MSM/BBC.
    Interesting times indeed

  107. ronnie anderson says:

    Naw Edward, Its goat tae be Clyde Built oor Shipbuilders dont dae   ( JUNK ) s fer fek sake the mans suppost tae be own holiday, or JOhann Lammentable I ll he haw tae say at next FM questions an that wuld upset me ah need awe the laughter ah kin git

  108. Murray McCallum says:

    Sorry, but it really pisses me off that useless shits like Davidson and Carmichael pedal ongoing shipbuilding on the Clyde as something down to what Westminster politicians have ensured rather than the skill and graft of workers in Glasgow.

  109. Jamie Arriere says:

    This is probably the page Nicola meant, but to fair it looks like collaboration on design and technology sharing rather than building each others’ ships – but the point is still there, sharing procurement with friendly countries even ones at the other side of the world.

  110. G H Graham says:

    Putting aside the regrettable job losses, caused by a lack of demand, BAE have made the best commercial decision possible under difficult, politically charged circumstances.
    England will have no warship building capacity in 2015 & beyond but Scotland will. Once independent, Scotland will need to develop its own naval footprint & using European Law to its full advantage will inevitably place naval orders in Scotland.
    Politically, England may prefer to commercially ‘punish’ Scotland but BAE is a British company & after next year will only have two yards in the British Isles with the capability & capacity to build warships. They will both be in Scotland.
    It is entirely possible then that England could insist that BAE build its ships in another country  but BAE would only do that if the extra costs were compensated for by the British Government. Apart from not being able to afford even a single plane for either aircraft carrier, this makes no economic sense whatsoever so it is highly likely that some British warships will be built in Scotland post independence.
    On balance then, this is a good commercial decision by BAE & a great one for Scotland because BAE have put aside politics & have instead used cold hard financial data with which to show their hand.
    Staying in a union with England will see naval orders being placed in Scotland but opting for independence will actually stimulate a shipbuilding bonanza. Shipyard workers reading this should consider that independence is the best decision they can make in their entire lives. 

  111. Andy-B says:

    Here is the link I think Nicola Strugeon spoke about in FMQ’s today, when Phil Hammond said the Type 26 Frigates, could/would be built in Australia.

  112. john king says:

    Maybe the Govan workers have more experience and are just better suited for the type 26 orders?
    wonder what George Foulkes would have to say about it
     “There doing it on purpose” maybe?

  113. Jamie Arriere says:

    “In times of budget pressures for all nations, it makes sense to maximise economies of scale and work with our friends to get the best value for money on all sides.”
    Philip Hammond, UK Defence Secretary [from the RN page I linked to above]

  114. Edward says:

    This should be interesting to all. Its an article in ‘Business Standard’ dated August 11, 2011, in which it reports that the Type 26 Frigate will be a joint affair with India

  115. ronnie anderson says:

    Ellie , The petition is on YES SCOT SITE to keep the Teacher here His Wife is recovering from Cancer ah think  Everybody should Sign Petition 

  116. muttley79 says:

    @Training Day
    Do the Unionist politicians and their stooges in the MSM even care anymore about the damage they are wreaking upon Scotland’s social fabric?  As long as they are protected (and rewarded) by the British establishment, it seems not.  
    I don’t think they do.  Another question is did they ever care in the first place?  The No campaign periodically say that they need to get a big win in the referendum.  They are currently at around 45 per cent in the polls.  This does not exactly make for a large victory.  I think now they really want to win at any cost.  It does not matter how victory is achieved for them.  This is the mindset they now have.  It is unsustainable.  Yes supporters will not forget how they achieved it if there is a No vote.  The No campaign could easily be called the self preservation campaign.  The independence referendum has shown their true feelings for Scotland.  They are happy to denigrate their own nation in pursuit of self interest and advancement.  Davidson, Curran, Murphy, Alexander, Darling etc are the embodiment of this.

  117. Andy-B says:

    @Jamie Amere.
    It may well just be what you say but and its a big but, the Westminster Government aren’t to be trusted, dangling the 26 Frigates contracts, (like a carrot on a string) to entice voters to vote no, is a tactic of the BT camp via Westminster.
    It will however not safeguard the longterm future of Scottish shipbuilding, and in the event of a YES vote and the rUK having no viable shipbuilding yards, the Aussie shipyards just may be a cheaper option for the erratic Westminster Government.
    A need to see past the 26 Type Frigates for Scottish shipbuilding is imperative.

  118. Tris says:

    Unfortunately it doesn’t matter that it is lies from top to bottom. 
    It is what people on the street see, and no mainstream medium is doing anything to disabuse them of the impression that is being given.
    On balance it’s a good day for Mr Davidson’s £100,000 a year +expenses job, but then, isn’t every day. Not many people of his standard earn that kind of money.

  119. Steven M says:

    Well played Stu, if this is the quality of journalism that our donations bought then I for one am very glad to have been a donor. More power to your elbow.

  120. Archie [not Erchie] says:

    @ cath and T Jenny – I had a wee look at the Standard Newspaper, Hong Kong, which reports a wee snippet about our FM signing an agreement with the Chinese Regional Grants Council to fund research developments between Scotland and China. 

    Goodness knows what else he is coming home with? Shipbuilding contracts? I wouldn’t blink too quickly.

  121. Robert Kerr says:

    All orders for RSN ships shall be placed with BAEScot. A company registered in Scotland and paying taxes to the Scottish Government.
    Over to BAE to structure its international organisation accordingly.
    Read this and be confused.

    My understanding is that all Indian Companies are required to be at least 51% Indian. BAE Systems India works through joint ventures.

  122. Training Day says:

    @Robert Kerr and Muttley
    Aye, the damage has well and truly been done.  Ten months out from the referendum, there is already no way back either for the MSM or for those Unionist politicians who’ve embraced the lies, spite and bile of Better Together.  Their actions will neither be forgotten nor forgiven.

  123. Orica MacDonald says:

    Does Northern Ireland not still have ship building facilities?

  124. Kev says:

    Completely O/T, but it seems the Ginger Rodent has already dismissed the forthcoming whitepaper by saying that
    ““Any wishful thinking from the Scottish Government in its forthcoming White Paper will be just that, wishful thinking at best,”
    He also described plans for a curency union as “highly unlikely”:

  125. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    The big Q word is highly appropriate for the Ginger Rodent.

  126. Dramfineday says:

    Edward at 12.43 – re FM and China. Edward you are a very naughty boy suggesting such an upsetting (for the unionists) type of deal! Oddly enough I had a similar thought myself (but it was restricted to a handful of ships) so I’m in the NB’s club too.

  127. Gillie says:

    I must admit Nicola Surgeon fairly wiped the floor with JoLa today at FMQs. 
    I like her take that the Clyde shipyards are not just the “best” in making Royal navy warships they are now the “only” shipyards that can do so, and to say otherwise would be an attempt to “bully” and “blackmail” Scotland. 
    No one of the chamber could counter such facts of “best” and “only”, and you could see that JoLa, Ruthie and Willie were made very uncomfortable by the accusations of bullying and blackmail.

  128. lumilumi says:

    Well, the BBC and MSM have handled this predictably. sigh…
    Nicola Sturgeon was excellent on FMQs today. Of course what she didn’t spell out was that independent Scotland would have to subsidise its commercial shipbuilding industry like many (most?) European countries do – I’m sure even Norway does because it’s a high-wage, high-cost country. It’s a political decision.
    What I don’t understand is why it’s claimed that shipbuilding would end on the Clyde after YES. If Scotland becomes indpendent, it’ll need a navy and I don’t think the English Navy would give Scotland enough of theirs (or, indeed, if they’d be suitable, I can’t imagine Scotland having any use for aircraftcarriers with or without the aircraft…)
    So the Scottish Navy will have to build some ships and boats, and EU competition rules allow military vessels to be exempt from open competition. Or, if Scotland was thrown out of the EU, as the No Betters Together would have us believe, Scotland doesn’t have to care about EU competition rules. Anyway, I’m sure BAE would be glad of a new customer!
    Slightly OT: Yesterday, in another thread, I said I don’t know where Finnish Navy vessels were/are built. I looked it up. All in Finland, except the three newest ones in Italy (two of them delivered so far after some delays).

    Have a look at our navy’s flagship Pohjanmaa! It’s tiny! 😀 Then again, Finnish Navy’s needs are different than Scottish Navy’s would be. And Pohjanmaa did capture some pirates off Somalia a couple of years ago.
    BTW, almost all Finnish Navy’s ships and boats are named after coastal provinces, towns or islands, or fish or marine animals. The biggest transport vessels are Valas class, valas being Finnish for whale! 😀

  129. Jimsie says:

    Scotlands Champion, more like Scotlands Comic. It is a consolation knowing that their readership is in terminal decline. No wonder with the standard of journalism at this rag. Even a half-wit would think twice about buying this. I was offered a copy once for 10p by a wee promotions lassie at the door of Asda . I told her it was not worth 10p!

  130. Thistle says:

    Hi WoS people
    please take note of the following event below that we would like you to help promote so we can reach a wider online audience. We are also doing a little crowdfunding which ends in 4 days so please helpout if you can.


    On Tuesday 26th November 2013 The Scottish Government will publish its white paper on independence. Join us online or at The Glad Cafe, Shawlands, Glasgow for a presentation and Q & A session with representatives from ‘Business For Scotland’ (Michelle Thomson, Ivan McKee, Eric McLean)
    Find out the real figures and have your say on independence..

    TICKETS £5 are available from Young’s Interesting Books on Skirving street or online here:



  131. john king says:

    tris says
    “On balance it’s a good day for Mr Davidson’s £100,000 a year +expenses job, but then, isn’t every day. Not many people of his standard earn that kind of money.”
    Good one tris,
    And the ones that do wear a mask 
    and have a bag with the word swag on it over their shoulder  

  132. HandandShrimp says:

    Historian Tom Nairn once said that Scotland would not be free until the last minster was strangled by the last edition of the Sunday Post. I think he was a bit hard on ministers if not the Sunday Post. However perhaps Unionist and Daily Record would be a better fit for today’s politics.

  133. Edward says:

    Gillie – Are you that surprised. It was no contest

    In the Blue corner we had ‘very dodgy has been, one time teacher’ with the attention span of a gnat that has to read everything that she has to say and in the Red Corner we had the very practiced and astute lawyer, that is Nicola.

    I watched and Nicola had Lamentable on the ropes all the time. Lamentable started being so stupid that it was becoming embarrassing
    The one thing that I do note and that is regarding the allocation of time for debate. Yes FMQ’s has to work to a set time. But given the importance of what has happened, I would have though it a good idea for parliament managers to slot in a special debate, so that all back benchers can get their say

  134. MochaChoca says:

    Aren’t you being a bit unfair on ID? He knows his stuff and must have had some kind of senior involvement in the yards. I’m sure I heard someone on the telly say he is a shipbuilding expert.

  135. Brian Mark says:

    Ah dear the Daily Record, a newspaper in terminal decline. Diddy journalists and to think this is the newspaper that lets Tam Cowan spout his sexist drivel on a weekly basis, yes a quality newspaper right enough.

  136. Illy says:

    The independant MSP (I didn’t catch her name) at the end specifically asked for that.

  137. @lly says @Edward:

    The independant MSP (I didn’t catch her name) at the end specifically asked for that.

  138. HandandShrimp says:

    Is Davidson an expert on anything? Has he not spent almost his entire adult life as a politician?

  139. TJenny says:

    O/T – from Twitter:

    ‘Scotsman News is grim. Thoughts with the hardworking journos.’
    Are they downsizing again – anyone heard anything?

  140. mealer says:

    Can we get a link to FMQ,please?

  141. Jamie Arriere says:

    I’m with you on not trusting Westminster, but if they ain’t gonna build them in Glasgow, they certainly won’t build them in Oz – how would Portsmouth like that? No I’m pretty sure it will be share design & technology specs & costs, then Australia builds theirs and UK builds theirs – same might be said for India, Turkey and any of the others they collaborate with.
    Amen to shipbuilding beyond the Type 26s – However, the need to diversify is urgent, and we’ll need a diversification plan in place & quick if we’re going to be able to use that argument – plenty of will for that in the SG.
    Just caught the end of FMQs, and Margo MacDonald made the point that we were having the same discussion about Govan shipyard in 1973 about what comes next. No change in 40 years – pretty sure Westminster have no answers, or worse the wrong ones

  142. Kirriereoch says:

    Here is The Guardian´s report on The Scotsman-
    “The Scotsman is contracting. The ailing paper, having suffered a rapid fall in circulation, is to produce only one edition a day in future.

    From 6 January next year, its pagination will be reduced by as much as eight pages a day. It is to lose its weekend magazine, Scotsman Living. And its comment pages are to be downsized two days a week as well .”

  143. Robbie says:

    The london owned Daily Rectum committed suicide in 2007 with that pic of a noose on the front page.
    It also proved it,s blind hatred of Scotland by sacking 75 Scottish journos.
    Long may its sales continue to decline.

  144. Stuart Black says:

    Just watched FMQs, Nicola in sparkling form, wiped the floor with Jola, and then gave it a wee buff up, bit of a polish, good stuff.
    I know we frown on personal comments here, well mannered scum that we are, but I hope to be forgiven if I mention that Ms Lamont appears to have stolen her eyebrows from Ming the Merciless, haven’t noticed before, dazzled as I am by her peroxide bowl cut. 

  145. lumilumi says:

    The Secretary of State for Scotland is at it again, this time outside the gates of Govan shipyard:
    Unbelievable! The title should really be Secretary of State against Scotland, a.k.a Westmister’s Man in Scotland.
    He doesn’t seem to realise that his flimsly argument of a country building its warships within its own boundaries cuts both ways. Independent Scotland will have to build fit-for-purpose navy vessels and I’m sure BAE will be happy about the new customer.
    OT: Another snippet of interesting maritime trivia. The only Royal Navy vessel to be captured (not sunk) is still on display in Kokkola, a town midway along the Finnish west coast. It happened during the Crimean War in 1854. Finland was still a part of Tsarist Russia so the British and French navies also came to the Baltic.
    The story goes that two RN frigates parked outside Kokkola and launched three longboats (with guns), came ashore, made demands, were sent away by the townsfolk with a flea in their ear. The townsfolk then surprised the RN by opening fire (from shore) and captured one of the longboats. The frigates didn’t have time to load their cannon and thought it better to flee.
    Nine Englishmen (or they might’ve been Scots/Welsh/Irish) died and were buried in Kokkola. Until 2010 the British Embassy annually sent a small contribution towards the maintenance of their graves. In these times of austerity it has now stopped.
    The surviving Englishmen (POWs) were made welcome and attented the victory celebrations, then they were sent to Helsinki and St Petersburgh to be exchanged for Finnish/Russian POWs.
    The people of Kokkola are extraordinarily proud of their captured Royal Navy boat. There’s a purpose-built boatshed with glass sides so everybody can see their prize, and the park is named the English Park. 😀

  146. proudscot says:

    I listened to Call Kaye this morning as the phone-in was to be about the future of shipbuilding at the Clydeside yards. I admit I braced myself for a succession of anti-independence, anti-Scottish Government, mainly Labour activist callers, infesting the phone-in with their usual uninformed assertions full of bile and bitterness. In the event I was pleasantly surprised for once at the overall tenor of those who called in. The majority, including the Defence Expert (I forget his name) were positive and generally well informed in their attitude and comments. Kaye Adams herself was for once reasonably neutral, and performed the role of Devil’s Advocate for both sides of the debate quite competently and well.
    So, it appears that all the scaremongering and implied threats from Unionist politicians such as the odious Ian Davidson and the blustering “bruiser” Alistair Carmichael, are not having the negative effect they intended. In fact, perhaps the opposite is the case, namely that most Scots (like myself) do not take kindly to threats and bullying.

  147. TJenny says:

    Kirriereoch – thanks for the link.  Why don’t the powers that be at the Scotsman, screw the nut and live up to their name and come out for indy – surely that would see an upturn in sales – or is it really just all to late now?

  148. lumilumi says:

    @ kirriereoch 5.19pm
    Sad news about the Scotsman and job losses – I’m sure there are a lot of people who work for it that aren’t rabid Unionists. It’s the managers and editors who have dragged the title down. 23,000 circulation on some days! My local paper (in a town of 45,000) has a circulation of 21,000!
    Much of it is of course due the digital revolution, more and more people are getting their news online. But the Scotsman’s editorial line, all those SNP/Salmon accused… stories have sent many readers away, and they won’t come back even if the Scotsman did a complete U-turn and started supporting independence.

  149. Les Wilson says:

    With a YES vote, I guess we could “blackmail! them, as they do to us, ie REMOVE THE “26 Type” from the Clyde and we will demand Trident be removed in 3 months.
    Now that may get us a concrete order put together rather quickly !

  150. Ivan McKee says:

    Kokkola, I flew in and out of there on occasion when working up in Sievi.
    Brings back great memories.
    If you haven’t read this you might like it.

  151. Robbie says:

    I remember Celtic putting 14 goals past Kokkola in 1970.
    Happy Days.

  152. lumilumi says:

    Oh, it seems Kokkola is quite well-known among WoS readers! 😀
    Thanks, Ivan, for the link. I think I read it back in April when you first published it. I think you make some very good points, even though the Finnish economy is struggling a bit right now. For instance, the shipbuilding industry is in trouble because for a long time the big shipyards concentrated on luxury cruise liners and didn’t diversify… (Sound familiar..?)
    And Robbie, I will not have you slate Finnish football! 😀 We’ve nearly made the Euro Cup twice! 😀  And let’s see any Scottish ice hockey team take on any Finnish league ice hockey team! So there!

  153. Andrew Morton says:

    Enjoyed your story but in fact, other RN ships have been captured over the years, for example HMS Swiftsure which was captured by the French in 1800 and I recall that the Dutch fleet raided Chatham in the 1660s and captured the pride of the English fleet, the Royal Charles. Her stern carving is still on display in the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam. There were many others.

  154. Peter says:

    The other liquid gold.
    Drinks giant Diageo is preparing to deliver the first Scotch whisky casks to its new warehousing complex in Fife, after completing the latest stage of the £150m project.
    Two 64,500 sq ft warehouses have been completed this week, as well as the site’s office and gatehouse facilities.
    Diageo plans to build a total of 46 units at its Cluny Bond development near Kirkcaldy.
    Each will be able to store up to 60,000 casks
      46 warehouses at 60,000 casks is 2,760,000. So they can’t all be the same size. However that is a very large fortune in revenue coming directly to Scotland rather than london.

  155. Pauls says:

    You are so deluded it is beyond belief – rUk would have to build their ships in an independent Scotland’s shipyards??? So there’s no need to worry the jobs will be safe in independent scot la-land. You actually think the undecided will believe that?

    The option of recommissioning Portsmouth is dubious financially so it makes international tender the only option. That will be on the basis of price – a battle Scottish contractors cannot possibly win due to higher costs.

  156. Albert Herring says:

    BAE will be too busy building ships for the RSN to be building frigates for rUK. I doubt if rUK will be able to afford them anyway.

  157. Murray McCallum says:

    The MoD has endangered military lives for decades by cost cutting designs that make equipment unfit for purpose. Alas, that is what happens when idiots get fixated by price rather than purpose, design and build quality.
    Scotland has a “world-class” shipbuilding facility on the Clyde. It has been hacked back over the years under the watch of various Westminster administrations. Time we stopped that trend.

  158. Macart says:

    @Albert Herring
    Aye they’ll struggle a bit having lost 10% of budgetary contribution and a fair chunk of their bankable natural resource, but not to worry I’m sure there’s a work around with a wee bit of friendly negotiation. 🙂

  159. tartanfever says:

    lumilumi says:
    ‘Much of it is of course due the digital revolution, more and more people are getting their news online. But the Scotsman’s editorial line, all those SNP/Salmon accused… stories have sent many readers away’
    Good point. For quite a while I thought that the deliberate anti-independence headlines were there to drive up visitor numbers to the website. The Scotsman were showing 12% gains on the digital based revenues last year even though those visitors were generally lambasting the newspaper for what it has become.
    However, I think that negativity has become all consuming and people have just said ‘I can’t be bothered going there, it’s a waste of time.’
    So much for Ashley ‘ex-BBC Scotland’ Highfield and his plan to save Johnston press.
    Oh, and can someone tell that dreadful BBC Scotland political reporter, Niall O’Gallacher and the fossil that is Reevel Alderson that although it is spelt Holy (as in Holyrood) it is actually pronounced ‘Holly’. Three times in two days I’e had to listen to this mistake on the main bulletins. WTF are the Producer and Editor sitting their doing when the voice over is being recorded in the studio ?

  160. lumilumi says:

    @ Andrew Morton 6.36pm
    Oh dear. Don’t tell that to the people of Kokkola, they’re so proud of their captured Royal Navy vessel (a longboat & a small cannon). 🙂

  161. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “You are so deluded it is beyond belief – rUk would have to build their ships in an independent Scotland’s shipyards???”

    Wouldn’t HAVE to, no. Would likely CHOOSE to, on the same grounds that they built the Type 45s there.

  162. rabb says:

    Pauls says:
    You are so deluded it is beyond belief – rUk would have to build their ships in an independent Scotland’s shipyards??? So there’s no need to worry the jobs will be safe in independent scot la-land. You actually think the undecided will believe that?
    The option of recommissioning Portsmouth is dubious financially so it makes international tender the only option. That will be on the basis of price – a battle Scottish contractors cannot possibly win due to higher costs.
    100% correct Paul!
    There are some poor deluded souls out there who fail to grasp basic economics of all of this. Just a pity your one of them.
    Here’s 2 scenarios for you.
    1. Scotland votes no. BAE get the contract for the T26 because UK doesn’t build warships overseas (unless it suits them).
    2. Scotland votes Yes. rUK loses a sizeable chunk of it’s economy overnight. It needs to build T26. “Oh bollox”, says George Osbourne, “how will this multi billion £ spend sit with our balance of payments if we have the Polish build them?”. “It won’t George” says the BoE. “You need to pay for these in Sterling”. “But who else uses Sterling that can build T26?” says George. “Oh that’s right, Scotland!” “Were giving the contract to the Jocks Dave before they officially leave us so we can circumvent any EU regulations”.
    And so the T26 will be built in Scotland regardless of indy (If Westminster even has the money to build them at all).
    To suggest they will be built elsewhere IS delusional.

  163. Vincent McDee says:

    May I suggest you all read the bacground to the thesis, “Un-common Sense and very Common Nonsense
    It esplain a lot about this lot.

  164. call me dave says:

    I think you got that just right.      I posted a similar  but shorter version of what you said a wee while back on NNS..
    Meanwhile anyone make anything of this?  Is it a new poll?

  165. ronnie anderson says:

    Hootsman toilet rolls coming tae a £1 shop near you, Noo whits aboot  The Daily Rewind  SCOTTISH  JOURNALISTS  TAKE  NOTE ITS NO TO LATE FOR  O P E N  DEBATE  DONT PAY BBC LICENCE FEE

  166. gillie says:

    In responding to BBC about the UK seeking to work alongside Australia in developing the Type 26 frigates Alistair Carmichael has claimed that Australia builds all its warships within its own borders. Not true.

    Four of the six RAN Adelaide frigates were built in the US and sections of the Anzac frigates were built in New Zealand in a collaboration between the two neighbouring countries.

  167. tartanfever says:

    Pauls says:

    ‘The option of recommissioning Portsmouth is dubious financially so it makes international tender the only option. That will be on the basis of price – a battle Scottish contractors cannot possibly win due to higher costs.’

    Funny how I’ve been listening all day to unionist politicians and others telling me that the skillset required to build these vessels is only available in a few places – none of them being the low cost Asian shipyards which would cut out the ‘low wage’ factor.

    Either you’re wrong or I’m being told a load of porkies by unionist politicians.

  168. Albert Herring says:

    It’s both.

  169. HandandShrimp says:

    Call me Dave
    Newish poll. Scottish Skier was dissecting that one the other day. TNS always have the biggest margin and have Yes stuck on the same figure for months. The only trend they have is No going down a percent or two with each successive poll and don’t knows rising. The Fear mongering by Better Together is not having the impact they hoped.
    So while TNS is the poll that favours the Yes camp least it still shows the same trend of the gap narrowing.

  170. Mad Jock McMad says:

    Mad Jock has been saying since Sunday this will, in effect end in tears for Better Together. The workers at Scotstoun and Govan know better than Iain Blxxdy Davidson what the score is.

    BAE Systems is now a Washington, DC HQ’d international company just down the road from the Pentagon. They have dumped their European commitments because they get in the way of more lucrative US military joint contracts with the likes of Lockheed Martin.

    18 months ago they announced to shareholders they would not be investing the estimated £3.2 billion it would cost to bring Portsmouth up to scratch to meet the contractual requirements of the Type 26 build as there were poor prospects for any return on such an investment. Portsmouth workers were told this time last year the shipbuilding arm would be shutting down on completion of the carrier build.

    The rest of what has gone on over the last few days is simply political bull shitting by Westminster in an attempt to find a scapegoat, as the realisation dawned they are in fact powerless in the face of BAE Systems and the build contract for the Type 26. Not only is Westminster powerless but the agreement with BAE Systems signed by Bob ‘The Goldfish’ Ainsworth and given the nod by Alisdair Darling in 2009 means the UK Taxpayer is actually paying the cost of the shut down of Portsmouth as part of the Type 26 deal and not BAE Systems.

    You can see why the Unionist media needed to ramp up the anti Scottish hysteria because if anyone bothered to look at the BAE Systems web site or as Mr Bateman has, Hansard, and the antagonistic Type 26 questioning from Iain Davidson to Vice Admiral Mathews during a Scottish Affairs Committee hearing, they would not only smell but see the dirty big rat Westminster wants to hide.

    As far as Westminster is concerned; if they want the Type 26 frigates, they are powerless to control where they will be built – end of. Mr Hammond and everyone else at the MoD knows this and they also know it will never be at Portsmouth.

    The people at BAE Systems will have been talking on the quiet to Eck and Nicola and a bit like Grangemouth, my guess is the SNP Government have something up their sleeve. My guess is a Scottish Government facilitated ‘management’ buy out of the Clyde yards on completion of the Type 26 order to enable the diversification of shipbuilding on the Clyde Nicola talked about today.

    Time to stop being angry with these angry people, they are losing, they know it and they are now fighting with all the dirty weapons they have ten months out from the vote – remember Gandhi; then they fight you, then you win … keep the faith, we are winning. The gap between No and Yes has fallen from 26% in favour of ‘No’ when the campaign started to 8% with just under a year to go with 17% undecided.

  171. Alba4Eva says:

    Again, sorry if this has been posted already…

  172. call me dave says:

    Clothes maketh the man and all that but stripey jaickets, instead of lilac, makes no difference in this case.
    But let’s be fair she has a weaker hand to play but is not helped by her making a ham fist of it. Gray almost appears competent looking back.   

    PS: like MJM I believe Mr Swinney & Co have been preparing the ground for an independence initiative regarding the shipyards and the SDF to be.  Remember that although Trident is not wanted it will have a big part to play in the negotiations that will take place, leverage is vital in securing what Scotland can get out the deal.

  173. G H Graham says:

    Has Johan given up on eating donuts for breakfast & decided to copy Salmond’s weight reduction diet?
    Careful what ye wish for Johan. Yer jugs are about to touch yer knees.

  174. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Thanks for posting that.
    I’d only heard wee toty snippets on the radio, and they certainly didn’t convey just how hard Lamont had her arse kicked.

  175. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Could we possibly refrain from the insults about Ms Lamont’s appearance. These are counterproductive and she’s somebody’s mammy 

  176. Patrick Roden says:

    Blooming heck!!!
    I don’t like to slate any ones appearance, but no one with small lips who is JL’s age should wear dark lipstick.
    All this does is emphasize the fact that her bitterness is now written on her facial features.
    And who on earth advised her to paint a sig zag o her forehead in place of her eyebrows?
    Are people in the ‘Party’ purposely trying to make her look demented?
    On the Polls, It’s strange how we get stories almost every other day about how people are converting from No or Don’t Know to ‘yes’ and from No to Don’t Know, yet these polls only seem to be picking up the movement from ‘No’ to Don’t Know.
    It’s as if they have somehow managed to find a way to keep the ‘Yes’ numbers static.
    So while every unionist funded poll shows ‘No’ dropping steadily, they show ‘yes’ as static and no one moving from DK to Yes.
    We know from anecdotal evidence that this is not what’s happening ‘on the ground’ but I’m not in the least bit surprised about these polling figures.
    Simply put, the one thing that BT fear is the build up of a positive momentum for ‘Yes’ so just like they conspired to gerrymander the Scottish Parliament to ensure that the SNP could never win an overall majority (he,he) BT/Westminster, will have used all its influence, leverage or old school tie, relationships to make sure weighting considerations skewered the polling data, in favour of ‘No’
    The Wings poll put ‘The cat among the pigeons’ and since then these other pollsters have reluctantly admitted that they use ‘weighting’ in a way that ‘might’ skewer the data, but c’mon, these are professional polling companies, so why did they need the Wings Poll findings, to make them suddenly see something that this site has been saying all along…
    IE the Pollsters are using data, that at best is flawed and keeps yes numbers low, or at worse is flawed and is designed to keep yes numbers down.
    Charlie Gray pointed out that these polls did not reflect the true ‘Yes’ numbers. 

  177. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    D McE H
    Not mine, thank frk.

  178. Tamson says:

    @Alex Grant: I’m not so sure voters in Govan will be hugely affected by this stushie. By my reckoning, no other urban area in Central Scotland has voted more often for the SNP than Govan – 2 Westminster by-election wins and part of in now in a safe Holyrood seat.
    I suspect most of the workers at the Govan shipyards don’t live locally any more: they can probably afford better.

  179. Ken500 says:

    Norway built 100 ships in 2012. Many commissioned byOil companies to work in the Scottish sector of the North Sea. Build liners or wind turbines etc that is the growth Market. Develop the Oil fields off the West coast. Trident costs Scotland £1.5Billion+ a year.

    Unemployment Portsmouth 3%. Unemployment Govan 15%

    Total taxes raised in Scotland £60Billion. Scotland gets £48Billion back.

    Total revenues raised in the UK £610Billion. Westminster spends £720Billion – £20Billion more. The rest of the UK borrows and spends (pro rata) 3 times more than Scotland.

    Vote for Independence get the dead hand of Westminster off the Scottish economy, along with the Unionist Press.

  180. Kenny Campbell says:

    ” That will be on the basis of price – a battle Scottish contractors cannot possibly win due to higher costs.”
    Ability to actually build the vessels must also be a factor. I think its safe to say it needs to be a BAE yard. If the ships ever get built it will be in Scotland. If they get built is a bigger risk than where given the state of the economy.

  181. Albert Herring says:

    I suspect most of the workers at the Govan shipyards don’t live locally any more: they can probably afford better.
    Eh? Better than Govan?
    Seriously though, I understand only a handful of the workforce actually live in Govan, and they’ll be in the nice new estates around the area.

  182. Ian Brotherhood says:

    re Lamont’s ‘looks’.
    It’s not so much her appearance as her facial expressions – yesterday, just as NS was putting her back in her box for another week, she looked like an Auld Licht meenister’s wife who’s just found a pube in her scone.

  183. Guy Fawkes says:

    The idiocy of the tabloids is on full display here. The Daily Record is Scotland’s Disgrace. I hear that they’re switching to a more honest toilet roll format soon.

  184. jim says:

    whit a load of bollocks! its jees plain simple. feck t
    he shipyards. u wanna be ruled by tories or not?

  185. gay4indy says:

    OF COURSE the warships will be built at Govan because the SNP will slash corporation tax!

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