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Spread around town

Posted on November 06, 2013 by

We’ve been scratching our heads a bit throughout the developing story of BAE’s job cuts in Portsmouth, Glasgow and Rosyth. Not least because it seems Scots are meant to be grateful that the Govan and Scotstoun yards have been “saved”, despite the reality being a huge slice of the workforce being made redundant.

govanyard1

(Curiously, not one story that we’ve been able to find mentions how many are actually employed at the two Clyde docks. We had to go back to 2010 to find out that it’s apparently 4000, meaning that the cuts will be slashing 20% of the yards’ manpower.)

But the strangest thing is something else.

Because over and over, we’ve heard the mantra “the UK has never built a warship in a foreign country” used to assert that if Scots vote for independence, the contracts being given to Govan and Scotstoun will be cancelled and the highly-trained workers thrown on the scrapheap. And that’s odd for a couple of reasons.

Firstly and most obviously, just because something’s never been done in the past doesn’t mean it can’t, shouldn’t or won’t be done in the future. Plenty of countries already get their military hardware from outwith their own borders.

And secondly, because the policy seems to be a very new development.

“Business Standard has learnt that a cash-strapped UK government has approached New Delhi to jointly design and build a next-generation frigate, designated the Global Combat Ship (GCS).

While the UK had originally planned to build this alone (then designated the Type 26 frigate), shrinking defence budgets have forced it to seek international partners. And, India, along with other countries, including Brazil, has been invited into a consortium to design and build the GCS.”

That’s a piece from Business Standard magazine as recently as August 2011, pointed out to us by an alert reader who also mentioned something the Wall Street Journal had reported earlier the same year – namely that the UK government was also looking to Turkey to help out with the construction of the Type 26s:

“The UK and Turkey are negotiating a military pact that would see the two European powers take part in joint exercises and share expertise, a person familiar with the matter said.

The agreement underscores how the U.K., Europe’s most active military, is eager to work more closely with allied militaries amid budget cuts. In October, the British government announced cuts to the military budget of 7.5% over the next four years.

Further down the line, the two countries are looking at cooperating on equipment programs. One ‘possibility’ is that the Turks would help build Britain’s Type 26 Frigate, a type of naval ship due to enter service in the early 2020s.”

Both of these discussions, clearly, took place under the auspices of the current coalition government. It seems that the high-minded principle that Britain must build its own warships is in fact highly negotiable in the face of budget pressures.

Given the huge costs that would be associated with reinstating warship manufacture at Portsmouth after having laid off hundreds of skilled construction workers, it seems somewhat unlikely that any rUK government would waste vast sums of money purely to avoid giving work to Scotland, when it was perfectly happy to contemplate that work going to India or Turkey.

Of course, that does also raise the prospect that Govan and Scotstoun might have to compete with India and Turkey for the work, which could be a tough fight. But that’s a very different story to the one we’re actually being told by the entire media today.

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    1. Big Al says:

      I could have sworn that the USA built several warships (Flower and Castle class) for UK during WW2 under lend-lease arrangements.

    2. Atypical_Scot says:

      The Deputy First Minister released this today, stating the frigate contract is ‘guaranteed’ for the Clyde.
       
      http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/BAE-Systems-5e6.aspx
       
      The construction of the frigates is years away. 

    3. James Stevenson says:

      Not at all to mention the contract offered to South Korea last year for 4 Royal Navy fuel tankers.

      Admittedly, not exactly WARships, but still a MoD contract tendered not only outside the UK, but completely outside the continent.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17127488

    4. Adrian B says:

      The rev retweeted this link to Norwegian shipbuilding for 2012 earlier. makes you wonder why privately owned companies like BAE do not also carry out similar work. In comparison to some MOD work – this stuff would be a walk in the park and give steady work for the yards.
      http://www.shipbuildingnorway.com/volume-17/ships-delivered-in-2012-2/

    5. Jamie Arriere says:

      According to this report, there 3,200 BAe jobs spread over Govan, Scotstoun, Rosyth & Filton.
       
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-24831779
       
      so more like 835/3200 = 26%

    6. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      According to this report, there 3,200 BAe jobs spread over Govan, Scotstoun, Rosyth & Filton.”

      Telegraph said 4000 on the Clyde back in 2009:

      http://archive.is/Yd1CT

    7. Fudgefase says:

      The thing no one has pointed out is that an independent Scotland would be able to compete on the world market when it came to offering ship building, refitting and repairing services to all and sundry – not just Engles or Walgland (as surely we’re not forgetting Wales). 
      Just because we’ll not have the Union Jacksie flying above the shipyard doesn’t me we can’t do work for them!

    8. Angus McLellan says:

      The (proposed) deal with India (Brazil, Turkey, Australia, NZ, Canada, …) did not involve building ships for the RN abroad. It involved India (Brazil …) building copies of the ships for the Indian (Brazilian …) navies.

      So what was the point? Well, India (Brazil …) would pay to use BAE’s designs. And they’d buy BAE’s (or whoever’s) radars and electronics and weapons to fit to their ships. And Rolls-Royce’s turbines (and somebody’s electric motors and somebody else’s propellors and so on). Etc. And if they didn’t use BAE’s radar or Rolls-Royce’s turbines then BAE would get work redesigning things to work with different electronics or weapons or engines. Win, win, win for BAE.

      And the MoD? They would be able to share part of the total design costs on India (Brazil …). So win for them too, but nothing like as big a win as for BAE.

    9. Iain says:

      @Big Al
       
      The US swapped 50 WWI vintage destroyers for various strategic bases under Lend Lease. Afaik the US didn’t actually build new ships for the RN (though if they’d offered Churchill would have bitten their hand off).

    10. Andy-B says:

      Interesting take on it, I’m pretty sure I heard David Cameron say that Portsmouth Dock will remain open, not to build ships, but to service the ships of the Royal Navy.
       
      Will the type 26 frigates be built in Scotland in the event of a Yes or no vote?
       
      There are known, knowns, things that we know,that we know.
      There are known unknowns,that is to say,there are things that we now know, we don’t know.
      But there are also unknown unknowns,there are things we do not know, we don’t know.
       
      Quote by:
        Former:  United States Secretary of Defence  Donald Rumsfeld.

    11. Wingman 2020 says:

      900 jobs lost in Portsmouth is nowhere near as bad as 800 jobs lost on the Clyde. 

      Note that Portsmouth will be getting £100m of investment and a ‘City Deal’ to cushion the blow.  The Frigates are NOT guaranteed for Glasgow.  
      This is political blackmail.  

      And to tell us that the Royal Navy does not build Warships in ‘foreign’ country is an insult and a slap in the face.
       
      I seem to recall a number of joint military aircraft projects with other countries.  This is another hegemonic decision by Westminster.

    12. Atypical_Scot says:

      Ineos – international capitalist goits reek havoc at Grangemouth after reeking havoc in North England.
       
      BAE – international capitalist goits reek havoc at Portsmouth and the Clyde simultaneously
       
      Both international capitalist goits are looking to their more profitable far east operations.
       
      Capitalism legitimizes the devaluation of labour by exploiting it’s own immoral law that cheap labour in emerging economies is a justifiable profit maker, and in turn, lowers the value of domestic Labour, crushing industry. That’s what’s going on here, they’re fleeing a sinking ship. The UK will soon be no more, and it’s skint to boot, because of the very corporate capitalist goits that are leaving it high and dry.

    13. Murray McCallum says:

      No better together need to stop presenting the status quo as a risk free option. Anyone voting “No” to play it safe is deluded.
      There are no job guarantees through being a part of the UK (MPs, Lords and Monarchy excluded). Everything and anything is up for sale.

    14. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Would the Type 26 frigate be appropriate for Scotland for territorial water defence?

      just wondering

    15. Albalha says:

      Re the building or not building of the 13 26 Type frigates, Hammond made clear the decision won’t be made until the end of next year, they apparently haven’t done the designs yet.

      Add to that his statement that were Scotland independent the OPV’s wouldn’t have been heading to Goven/Scotstoun, in a general poltician’s answer sort of a way. As I said on t’other thread political origami. From what I can see, with limited knowledge, it’s more than likely the work will end up in Scotland from 2016 regardless of the vote but that’s not the messge that will get out and about after today’s statement.
       
      I just wish the SNP MPs had done a bit more background research and hit them with harder questions.

    16. Gillie says:

      There will be a further MOD defence review in 2015. It is being widely touted that this will lead to cuts in the number of Type 26 frigates that will be eventually built. There certainly won’t be 13 Type 26 frigates on order. So it is certainly no surprise then that the UK government is now looking at options offset costs by having other countries build in full or in part these ships. 

    17. Iain says:

      @Big Al
       
      The US swapped 50 WWI vintage destroyers for various strategic bases under Lend Lease. Afaik the US didn’t actually build new ships for the RN (though if they’d offered Churchill would have bitten their hand off).’

      Ha, checked up Flower Class corvettes on Wiki, and 10 were built in Canada for the RN. Cue ‘but, but, but Canada wasn’t properly foreign, these were desperate times’, etc, etc.

      ‘ The RN ordered the last ten vessels (under the 1939 War Programme) from Canadian shipbuilders in January 1940.’
       
      http://tinyurl.com/np6gvgf

    18. Albalha says:

      GovAn not GovEn, tsk, tsk, too late to edit.

    19. Kenny Campbell says:

      “Anyone voting “No” to play it safe is deluded.”
       
      Exactly, financial crisis happened under the union as did all the other crap.

    20. MochaChoca says:

      The type 26 do look good…… couple of those with saltires fluttering would be a braw sight !

    21. Jimsie says:

      It would be interesting to know the comparative wage costs for Portsmouth and Clyde yards. Seems to me that one of the reasons for ceasing new build at Portsmouth would be cheaper labour on the Clyde.

    22. Doug Daniel says:

      Seems to me the main problem for the shipyards is that they’re owned by a company that deals exclusively in the defence industry. That’s why the yards can’t diversify – because they’re owned by a company that has no need to start making non-military vessels. Ferguson’s yard down the Clyde, at Port Glasgow, makes commercial ships like ferries for Caledonia MacBrayne. I can’t see either Scotstoun or Govan shipyards making such vessels as long as they’re owned by BAE.

    23. desimond says:

      Suddenly Philip Hammonds “People join the British Armed Forces to see the world” is starting to ring hollow.

      “People assign MOD contracts to cause sorrow” more like.

      I think its strange how all the reporting seems to fail to point out that BAE is not a UK national company. Its a ravenous multinational arms monster. Its as if this is all the Governments faults, Oh if only BAE had some spare cash lying around, like here or here 

    24. Angus McLellan says:

      @Andy-B: Portsmouth Dockyard (the thing that’s 500 years old) is not the same as the shipyard in Portsmouth, now owned by BAE, which opened in 2003. (That yard replaced one at Woolston in Southampton which was opened by Thornycroft in 1904.)

    25. faolie says:

      No one’s told the MOD about this ‘Royal Navy contracts for UK shipyards only’ policy. In February, they placed a sizeable order for 4 RFA vessels with South Korea, because, this represents the best value for taxpayers’ money [£425m].
       
      https://www.gov.uk/government/news/mod-to-order-four-new-rfa-tankers

    26. MochaChoca says:

      Not sure about the logistics, but given the current over capacity wouldn’t it make sence to give over one or other of the yards on the clyde to commercial shipbuilding.
       
      Afterall BAE used to make commercial aircraft. In Scotland no less.

    27. HandandShrimp says:

      BTP
       
      Yes the Type 26 would be an excellent all round ship for the Scottish navy – although at the top end of what we would be in the market for. The Type 45 destroyers would be complete overkill and really are deep blue water ships designed to provide cover for the aircraft carriers and the like.  I rather thought we would end up with 3 or 4 of the Type 23 frigates, which the Type 26 are replacing. The Type 23s would actually more than meet our needs but we would not get the service life out of them that new builds would provide.  

    28. call me dave says:

      I Davidson MP has just stated that in his view:  A YES vote will lose the Type 26  frigates. 4:20hrs

    29. Philip says:

      Interesting that Portsmouth gets the steady work in maintaining the ships whereas the rest get the stop-start uncertainty of building new ones. Westminster giveth and Westminster taketh away. All hail to Westminster.

    30. Baheid says:

      Nicola just on RSCO, 

      In answer to Carmichael’s statement that Scotland might not get to build any of the Type 26.

      ‘The procurement might be a joint procurement as we might want some of them’.
       
      So you might seea Saltire on some of them Mochachoca

    31. HandandShrimp says:

      Call me Dave
       
      Davidson wanted Hammond to say that in his brief this afternoon and failed to secure those words. Hammond was in kick Labour in the crotch for the crap carrier contract mode and was not interested in Davidson’s separtionista obsession. Looks like our Chubby Choob has decided that is what is happening regardless.

    32. dave kemp says:

      So just nationalise the Clyde yards as well as Grangemouth. Easy…

    33. Jamie Arriere says:

      “Telegraph said 4000 on the Clyde back in 2009:”
       
      So as many jobs have been lost since 2009 as are being announced today? From 4000 then to 2400 (incl Rosyth & Filton) when these jobs go? Better Together?

    34. a supporter says:

      I realise that as editor et al of this Blog you don’t want to be over the top in criticising  political matters  but it doesn’t stop me from being so.

      it seems somewhat unlikely that any rUK government would waste vast sums of money purely to avoid giving work to Scotland, when it was perfectly happy to contemplate that work going to India or Turkey. 

      It is also absolute nonsense to think that the WM Government would ever consider trying to start up shipbuilding again in Portsmouth after paying out millions in redundancy payments, the skilled workforce dispersing itself far and wide, and BAE running down and scrapping the plant and equipment. That is just a WM Government lie to try and scare Scottish workers off voting YES and to try to get it off the hook in England because of its apparently caving in to Scots. Some cave in when 800 Scots are losing their jobs.

    35. call me dave says:

      Reposting on this thread as it is more relevant here.
      ………….
      George Kerevan on politics ScotlandSuggesting that a YES or NO vote is irrelevant in this context as the Portsmouth Yard cant build ships and that the Clyde will get the orders in any event.  In other words the UK government have burnt their bridges already.  Patrick Harvie is possibly the only one that sees the thing in the round by extolling the need to diversify into other types of ships and engineering as the way forward.

    36. desimond says:

      Grangemouth…billionaire company wants more government subsidy and to reduce workforce….Objective MET

      BAE bring forward “review” to announce they are looking at reducing workforce and coudl really do with government subsidy….Objective MET

      Sadly I’m now wondering who will be next to get the corporate begging bowl out while slimming down employment costs.

    37. Albalha says:

      @HandS
      Enough was secured from others in the rest of debate to allow ID to bang on like that, the Dunfermline/Rosyth Labour MP comes to mind. The UK is probably about to go to hell in a financial handcart and there are oodles of pointy headed views to prove it but sadly the average voter will hear that a YES vote means the end of shipbuilding. How many people in Scotland do you think even know who P Hammond is?

    38. HandandShrimp says:

      I see Hammond has on a subsequent TV interview hinted rather than confirmed that they would pull the the Type 26 build if we vote Yes. Pull to where? He has clearly been told to go a do a bit for Better Together. He was having too much fun kicking Labour in the House over their MoD contract failings.
       
      No doubt this only further fuel anger and conspiracy in Tory heartlands over Portsmouth being sacrificed to appease the revolting Scots 😉
       
      Tricky thing this politics game.

    39. Vambomarbeleye says:

      Have a look at the article in the mail. The wee englanders are far from happy. As usual talking out their collective arses. Britania rules the waves etc
      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2488269/Shipbuilding-Portsmouth-end-500-years-1-775-jobs-axed-BAE-Systems.html

    40. Craig P says:

      So 1000 jobs to go in England and 800 in Scotland, and this is being described by media commentators as the UK government pandering to Scotland. I’d hate to see what giving us a doing would look like 🙁

    41. Training Day says:

      Wow.  The delight at the possibility of people losing their jobs from Labour MP John Robertson (on the Rev’s Twitter feed) is something else.  He describes with unabashed glee the notion that workers on the Clyde will only keep roofs over their heads if they vote No (and bizarrely calls it the ‘law of the land’).
       
      Bet he was punching the air on the news of the demise of RBS too..
       
      Scotland – for God’s sake wake up and rid ourselves of the disgusting Labour Party.

    42. Jimbo says:

      @Vambomarbeleye
       
      I now feel grubby having to go there.
       
      Here’s the Archived version: http://archive.is/Y0NpI

    43. Atypical_Scot says:

      @Jimbo, Vambomarbeleye;
       
      And Lamont sticks in her tuppence worth. Weak.

    44. Jamie Arriere says:

      Rev,
       
      According to report on BAe website, 3200 at Govan and Scotstoun. (In Additional notes at bottom)
       
      http://otp.investis.com/generic/regulatory-story.aspx?cid=288&newsid=376424

    45. gordoz says:

      Quite sure there are 800 former worker / union member votes, no longer guaranted to vote No !! Very possible YES voters now likely.

      This should be one of the ‘Dangers of the Union’ aspects pounced on by YES side at some stage.

      Warning : Contrary to myth about pending Independence Referendum leading to job losses, 800 union members of Clydside Shipbuilding Workforce found out today, (the hard way), that ‘job security’ within UK Government market is meaningless  and can not be relied upon under ‘status quo’ system. 


      Fears over Scotland remaining in the ‘United Kingdom’ grow for remaining workforce as evidence suggests job losses occur regardless of the ‘Union’ and jobs are cut by UK coalition Government due to austerity measures biting job ordes from Royal Navy.


      Strangely these job losses cant be blamed on current SNP Government, who plan to retain the yards and workforce as part of an Independent Scotland’s strategy for creating a Scottish defence fleet and sensible diversification beyond military strategies towards commercial ship building as is done by similar progressive nations. 


      How does this fit with a meaningless notion such as ‘Better Together’ for those folks fired as part of this.

      Suggest we hit their Website hard tonight!! 

      Rule Britania – Save it !
       

    46. kininvie says:

      What, naturally enough, neither the UK government, nor Ian Davidson have hitherto mentioned is the existence of ‘Collaborative Defence Procurement’.
       
      To put it simply, this is where two or more EU states team up to share the costs of designing and building defence equipment. It’s common practice, and not just the small EU states are involved.  For example, Italy and France have a joint programme to design and build – wait for it – frigates. Have a browse through this site to see the extent and nature of such collaboration (and just how many programmes the UK Govt is involved in)
       
      http://www.occar.int/programmes
       
      With Scottish independence, the UK govt will have two choices:
       
      1) Take its ball home, award the T26 contracts to Portsmouth or elsewhere, and no doubt suffer all kinds of problems in extra funding, under-capacity and so on. Not to mention trying to sort out BAE system’s obligations as a defence contractor operating in two different nations.
      2) Enter an immediate collaborative procurement agreement with Scotland, allowing work to proceed seamlessly and smoothly, and BAE systems to work jointly with both countries.
       
      It’s a no brainer, and I think Nicola’s hint dropped tonight on the radio that Scotland would like to have a couple of the frigates was a clear steer to the MoD that an independent Scotland would look favourably on just such an agreement, with appropriate cost sharing.
       
      Collaborative defence procurement would appear to come into conflict with certain bits of EU procurement law (if you REALLY want to be bamboozled, start here: http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/pprg/documentsarchive/phdtheses/heuninckxthesiscompletefinal.pdf), but the fact that so many member states are doing it suggests to me that it’s de facto a done deal, and the EU can go whistle.
       
      Of course, I would not expect Mr Davidson to take much notice…..
       
       

    47. david says:

      if i was in portsmouth tonite i would keep my mouth well and truly shut. bbc are causing friction by blaming the referendum.

    48. ronnie anderson says:

      Did I hear rite the day ( common lobby ) WE Nags Currant saying that Ian Davidson wiz a expert on Clyde Shipbuilding, Ah read PARA HANDY tae diz that make me an expert  , ken whits said aboot AULD CLYDE PUFFERS ( RUST IN PIECES )                                                                                                                                              KEEP YER HEIDS UP GUYS YOU VE BEEN THERE BEFORE  ALL THE BEST

    49. gordoz says:

      Actually UK  – Fine, take yer type 26 orders and yer 100% overspend on yer white Elephant carriers HMS Lizzy and HMS Prince Charlie !! £ 3 Billion Est  / £6 Billion pound cost to date.
      Should balance out just about ?

    50. Embradon says:

      Another scenario:
      UK cannot afford to build the Type 26 ships unless:

      It can get share the design costs with potential partner countries
      It can sell off one of the aircraftless carriers

      It will not, however, announce the cancellation / postponement / reduction of the project until after the referendum – irrespective of the result. If its a YES, “separation” will be blamed – if its NO it will be too late to affect the result and BAE will close the yards anyway.
      If either or both of the conditions can be achieved the hulls could be built in Turkey, Brazil or India – using the cost saving and partnership agreement as justification – and fitted out in Portsmouth which is having its fit-out and re-fit capacity retained.
      Call me cynical if you will..
      Scotland, in the event of a YES could however build versatile ships like these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absalon-class_support_ship  which poor wee Denmark appears to be able to build and commission in under two years without the dead hand of the MoD.

    51. Adam says:

      Also, I appreciate it’s not a warship, but the Eurofighter Typhoon was/is a joint European venture. They’re made in Germany, so far as I’m aware.
       
      Not to mention (and it has been several times both here and at Business Scotland), no complex machine can be created nowadays without parts from all over the world.

    52. Jimbo says:

      Strangely enough, little mention of the BAE cuts on BBC News/England
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/england/
       
      Playing the blame game on BBC News/Scotland
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/scotland/

    53. Ken500 says:

      Unemployment Portsmouth 3%

      Unemployment Govan 15%

      Vote for Independence and build ships, wind turbine etc. Trident costs £1.5Billion, a year.

    54. call me dave says:

       
      A Carmichael:
      Our new Sec of State on BBC radio Scotland cannot guarantee the T26 frigates is a shoe in and will have to compete with others ?????
      But I thought that the UK never built ships outside the UK or rUK.  
       
      So that’s Hammond ; Davidson and Carmichael now all saying or implying that we better vote NO.
       
      What will BAE have to say to that, because from the short clips of their spokesperson(s) on the tv / radio, they are quite clear that the Clyde is a done deal for the new work.
       
       

    55. Partick for independence says:

      Has anyone asked Ian Davidson if the the bayoneting of the wounded at Govan,Scotstoun, and to be fair Plymouth, has commenced?

    56. Murray McCallum says:

      Scott Minto’s post from a few days back, demonstrated that Scotland’s 5% budget deficit was half that of the UK’s 10.1% deficit.
       
      Anyone voting “No” needs to realise that the UK government is desperate to cut costs at every corner. This includes defence, hence the look to foreign quotes for delivery of RN vessels.
       
      History clearly shows us that the UK has no appetite to save strategic and/or high-skilled industries. There is no long term thinking.

    57. Dave says:

      I have been watching a series called “World’s Biggest Ship” on channel Quest. It is the biggest container ship ever built in the world and is being built in S Korea for the Danish company Maersk. How can a small Scandinavian country with the same population as Scotland do this?
      Even more amazing, they are building a fleet of 20 of these giants. I am confused – surely Denmark is too wee and poor?
       
       
       
       

    58. Tinyzeitgeist says:

      My thoughts go out to the workers in Govan/Scotstoun and Portsmouth who will lose their jobs due to the sheer incompetence of a Westminster government who don’t care a jot for them or their families. The shipyard workers in Scotland are being blackmailed by Westminster to vote no in the referendum with absolutely no guarantee that the yards will remain open following the referendum.

    59. Big Al says:

      @Iain
      Thanks for the additional info 🙂
      My apologies to our Canadian ship building brethren for confusing your WW2 help with your gun totin’ southern neighbouroonies.

    60. john king says:

      Mocha chocha says
      “couple of those with saltires fluttering would be a braw sight !”
      That made my heart skip a beat 

    61. edulis says:

      Ian Davidson gets away with his specious arguments because he comes across as a man of the street speaking in common sense terms with a little bit of jocularity and mischievousness thrown in. Somebody should have asked him how much of these frigates will be entirely sourced in the UK. I should imagine not even half.
      I agree with the above that the BBC is really upping the ante to further the subsidy junkies theme.

    62. Albalha says:

      @dave
      Re Maersk ubiquitous in Qatar, where does LNG come from again.
       
      http://www.maerskoil.com/global-operations/Qatar/Qatarization/Pages/history-of-maersk-oil-in-qatar.aspx

    63. Conan_the_Librarian says:

      @ John King
      Scots Naval history has been airbrushed out of the history books. Who has heard of the ‘Yellow Carvel’, (Not the pub) or Sir Andrew Wood? The Great Michael bombarding London?

    64. Robert Louis says:

      Firstly to echo what this article states, George kerevan stated whilst interviewed on politics Scotland on the BBC this PM, that the notion that warships were never built outside the UK was just a myth.  He pointed to the fact that projects such as the aircraft carriers had many, many critical components and elements which were tendered and sourced overseas.
       
      The other important point is that now that Portsmouth is going to be a repair and maintenance yard only in the future, all the expertise in the UK will be focused on the Clyde.  What this means, is that regardless of a YES or NO vote, London would NOT easily be able to have ships constructed anywhere other than Glasgow, if it wished to remain within the British isles for manufacture.  In addition, the movement of the surface vessel work from Portsmouth to the Clyde announced today, will mean that Westminster has contracted well BEYOND the referendum date for warships to be built on the Clyde.
       
      Does the likes of Ian Davidson, seriously think, that just because Scotland votes YES, London will withdraw ALL work already contracted with the Clyde, and despite all the expertise at that site and no longer available in Portsmouth, decide to move any planned projects to somewhere else,, bearing in mind the yards are owned by a private commercial company and NOT the government, just to somehow ‘spite’ the Scots.  It is a truly inane and infantile notion.  Wholly ridiculous.
       
      In summary, despite the sad job losses announced, what this means, is that it would be ridiculous to assert that a YES vote means the end of Clyde shipbuilding, no more than a NO vote will guarantee it.  Indeed, it could be argued, that an independent Scotland will likely benefit the Clyde as the Scottish Government would also be placing orders for ships in the Scottish defense force.
       
      A YES vote in the referendum, will be a win-win for the Clyde.

    65. Atypical_Scot says:

      There seems to be some brain interference. It’s the UK that likes boats with guns, that’s one of the things we take the piss out of them for.

    66. Robert Louis says:

      Dave,
       
      Regarding Maersk, you make a good point.  I watched the same programme, and thought if only Scotland were independent we could easily grow our own industry and expertise to achieve what countries like Denmark have done.

    67. @ Conan_the_Librarian
      Scots Naval history has been airbrushed out of the history books. Who has heard of the ‘Yellow Carvel’, (Not the pub) or Sir Andrew Wood? The Great Michael bombarding London?
      Just Googled that.  Amazing – never heard of it.  Then again I got taught British history at school in the 70’s – 1066, Guy Fawkes, stuff like that.

    68. Albalha says:

      @Robert Louis
      Well YES and as long as the voters get that then we’re fine, but will they? Labour know how to spread their poison. And at times it’s made oh so easy for them, frustratingly. 

    69. Alba4Eva says:

      I have never (suprisingly) seen so much bull shit as I just witnessed on the STV news regarding ship building contracts.  Complete one sided fear mongering shite.  I am literally f*****g angry at the lack of mention that in an independent Scotland, there would be a defence budget of 3 billion or so… a lot of that would keep the Clyde etc in business if the crap im hearing from STV that England would cancel contracts.  Which is all complete rubbish anyway.  
      Have they not heard of best value tenders and open competition… European competition rules?   
       
      Sorry rev for swearing but **** me   :/

    70. Devlin Porter says:

      Although not in Portsmouth, The Men of the Deep South have conveniently forgotten the Tories’ transfer of work from experts in Rosyth to Devonport, Plymouth in 1992. Many Rosyth men lost their jobs and the Plymouthians didn’t look back.

    71. G H Graham says:

      BAE will build products where the quality, price & delivery meet the customer’s needs. Only if the British Government were to subsidise would a defence contractor consider incurring additional costs.
       
      Thus, Portsmouth will only be given warship construction work if Britain coughs up money to cover the higher costs. Since it can’t even afford to put any planes on either of its two aircraft carriers, it seems highly unlikely the British will spend an extra several hundred million just to have a “Made in England” badge riveted onto the arse of a boat.

    72. Conan_the_Librarian says:

      @ Dave Beveridge
       
      Aye, you have to dig deep to find our forgotten history.  We have all heard of Agincourt; hands up if you have heard of  Bauge?

    73. WND says:

      I reckon the YES campaign will need to play a blinder with this one.  Huge opportunity for Project Fear. 
       
       

    74. Robert Louis says:

      Aibalha,
       
      I agree, the likes of the chairchoob and other unionists will say anything, but that of course is not unique to the shipbuilding industry on the Clyde.  YES campaign in Glasgow need to hammer the message home in that constituency.
       
      I think ridiculous claims from Davidson and his ilk, really need to be treated with utter contempt.  They are patent childish nonsense.  What he says is just daft.  i watched him today on the BBC tell viewers, that the redundancies on the Clyde had been expected, and will almost all be non compulsory – as many people are just waiting to leave.  Honestly, a Labour MP, stating on TV that 100’s of redundancies in his Govan constituency are ok???  Unbelievable!!  I doubt the Clyde workers actually losing their jobs are as equally happy as Mr. Davidson.

    75. Alba4Eva says:

      Honestly WND… it is way worse than that.  It is pure unadultarated propaganda from our establishment media.  It is Orwellian… North Korean… pure evil control.  If the propaganda wins over the enlightenment of the population, then everything is going to be a lot worse than anyones nightmares could ever imagine.   That is simply a lesson from history.

    76. Jimsie says:

      Re my earlier post. It was confirmed by BBC news that labour costs are indeed cheaper on the Clyde. Scots only get work when they are forced to work for less than their counterparts in England.

    77. faolie says:

      Nick Robinson on BBC 6 news saying that he’d ‘heard’ that UK government couldn’t countenance the closure of Govan in the year of the referendum. Well, mibbe, but it’s surely just tacking on this to the real reasons, on the basis of, ‘well if we have to close Portsmouth and keep Govan open because that’s where the expertise is, we may as well try to get some UKOK votes out of it’.
       
      Fat chance with 800 jobs going down the tube.

    78. Ryan Wilson says:

      Scottish media in facts omission shocker!
      Talk about stating the frigate obvious.

    79. Edward says:

      Conan_the_librarian  – Yes I have, heard of both the ‘Yellow Carvel’ (not the pub) and the ‘Great Michael’ Your right there has been a lot of air brushing of our history
      I will give you another example of air brushing. We keep getting told ad nauseam about Henry V and the battle of Agincourt. What you don’t get told is that after that battle, Henry V was well and truly beaten by the Scots IN France. A force of 6000 Scots defeated a larger English army at the Loire town of Baugé in 1421. You should also google Garde Ecossaise

    80. Not to forget that the lead contractor for Brittania’s currently under construction white elephants HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales is the terribly British Thales: https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/propos-de-thales/board-directors
       
      A l’eau c’est l’heure indeed!

    81. Jimbo says:

      @Conan 95.49 pm)
       
      Scots Naval history has been airbrushed out of the history books. Who has heard of the ‘Yellow Carvel’, (Not the pub) or Sir Andrew Wood? The Great Michael bombarding London?
       
      Yes, your right, Conan. Scots naval history has been completely ignored. Starngely enough I put a post about the Great Michael in Quarantine on 9 October this year. You can read it here:    http://wingsoverscotland.com/quarantine/
       
      A wee snippet from that post: The “Michael” was the first of the great ships, a forerunner of the later ship of the line. She was said to have carried among her armament the great Scottish cannon, “Mons Meg”, which had a calibre of 22 inches. This made her the warship with the largest calibre gun in history – larger even than those of the great battleships of WWII.
       
      Not a lot of Scots are aware that our (Scottish) Royal Navy predates the English Navy (later to become the Royal Navy).

    82. WND says:

      Caesar!4Eva – it just seems to me that YES needs to play a blinder every single time, whereas the forces of darkness just have to be lucky once.
       
      Should add that I’m a relatively new convert to YES, since moving back north from the Home Counties in the summer, so I haven’t yet cultivated the ability to let the propaganda wash over.

    83. Robert Louis says:

      Some rather choice comments getting thrown around over at the Torygraph in reply to an article entitled ‘The Union:Better off together?  Tell that to Portsmouth’, for example:
       
      “How approx 5 million people can cause all this disruption to 60 million is an absolute joke! I hope they get their comeuppance for the shed loads of trouble they have caused and English taxpayers say “No, No, No” to any bail outs.”
       
      And,
       
      “Portsmouth has been betrayed. This is an utter disgrace. This is purely political. Why can’t we English also vote on Scottish Independence? Or rather English Independence from Scotland as I prefer, we send up so much English money to subsidise Scotland and they still hate us. Good riddance, hopefully.”

    84. Jimbo says:

      Too late to edit
       
      Above post shuld read: @Conan (5.49 pm)

    85. Macart says:

      Heh, trust Cameron and Hammond to pull that stroke. Wee question for them. Just where else would they have the new frigates built? I mean since there will now no longer be shipbuilding facilities in England n’nat? Open tender to all foreign markets? Or will they go with the company and workforce who will be completing the initial order?
       
      What do you think? 😉
       
      Anyroads up, since we’ve seen ably demonstrated today just how safe a Clydeside workforce should feel under Westminster governance. Perhaps its time to vote for a parliament that will be in a position to retain and build upon Clydeside excellence. A government that would have a real stake in maintaining engineering and manufacturing on the Clyde. Just say YES folks. 🙂

    86. proudscot says:

      How much more of the anti-independence and, yes, anti-Scottish bile and snide insults from mainly Scottish Westminster Labour MPs, can the people of Scotland take, especially those who voted for these morons, before they realise the utter contempt they and their country are held in by these ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s?

      I wanted to hear the contributions of the SNP MPs, including my own man Pete Wishart, so I tuned into Scottish Questions this morning. It should be compulsory viewing for those who intend to vote NO. The overall level of anti-Scottish, anti-independence, anti-SNP sentiment expressed by the likes of Curran, Jamieson, Robertson, Davidson, and our new “bruiser” Secretary of State Against Scotland Carmichael, is sickening as well as angering.

      Finally, I almost threw up when the previous Governor General, “decent man” Moore, sat simpering and smiling without a trace of shame, when his lickspittle successor praised his “achievements” when in the post. If Moore had any pride left, he would have refused to attend this and subsequent sessions to show his resentment at being sacked. It reminded me of a comment I once read about this farce of a parliament, “A shiver ran through the Government/Opposition (take your pick) benches, looking for a spine to run up!”

    87. JLT says:

      Just seen the 6 o’clock news. Make no bones about it. England is pissed.
       
      As my workmate, Pete said at lunchtime, ‘the phoney war is over. It’s begun.’
       
      If we vote ‘No’, make no bones about it, we are going to pay a price for Portsmouth, and the end to 500 years of English shipbuilding…

    88. JGedd says:

      Nick Robinson on BBC news tonight said that he was informed that the decision had been a commercial one and was due to the Scottish yards having the best expertise and being cheaper. He didn’t enlarge on this as to whether being cheaper was due to greater efficiency and expertise or whether the workforce were cheaper.

      However, vox pops with Portsmouth workers seemingly emerging from the yard were quite hostile to their fellow workers in Scotland and adamant that it had been a political decision. One even maintained that they had been told that they were better workers than in Scotland and that the directors were Scottish, hence the decision made in favour of Scottish yards! Bizarre.

      It seemed to have passed everyone’s notice although the report did flash it up on the screen, that over 800 jobs were to be lost in Scotland. There certainly did not seem to be much union solidarity displayed by GMB members, at least in the report. Could this presage trouble for the future together with the bad feeling caused recently by the GMB pronoucement on a NO vote?

    89. Murray McCallum says:

      So the spin is that Clydesiders should be happy with 20-25% job losses. The remainder will only lose their job if they vote “No” to Scotland’s political independence.
       
      That little BBC Tory toad Robinson just can’t resist going that bit further and implying Scots should feel guilty about Clydeside job losses. The thought of Scots doing something more efficient than that in England is beyond his wit.

    90. the vote is September next year.  already hints that a Yes vote could mean Plymouth re-opening as a shipbuidling yard.  Honestly its all smoke and mirrors. 

    91. john king says:

      Proudscot says
      “A shiver ran through the Government/Opposition (take your pick) benches, looking for a spine to run up!”
       
      It’s mine I saw it first I want it 🙂 

    92. handclapping says:

      If rUK had suffered proportionate cuts in manpower they would have lost 8 thousand jobs. They’ve lost less than 1 thousand and are throwing their toys out the pram.
       
      To paraphase someone elses sermon we Scots are a very generous nation

    93. Ann says:

      Being an employee of BAE Systems it is a sad, sad day, not just for the workers at the yards in Scotland, but also in Portsmouth, but to the employees it is no surprise.
       
      The company has really struggled over the years with piece part cuts at sites for as long as I have worked for the company under its various guises.
       
      What has been stated by the company is that the decision has nothing to do with the forthcoming Independence Vote. It is simply down to there not being enough work to keep all three sites at Filton at full employee compliment.
       
      Govan and Scotstoun were chosen for the three vessels and the Type 26 for the simple fact that these shipyards are more suited to build these ships and there is to be an increase in investment and improvements to make  both yards world class.
       
      Portsmouth isn’t losing out in the investment stakes as over £100 million will invested to enable the new QE Class carries to be based there from 2017.
       
      The site will still employ over 11,000 covering most aspects from design to care and maintenance of the Naval Fleet and also the running of the Naval Base.
       
      However to turn this into a political pawn is all so wrong.  We are talking of people losing their jobs and facing an uncertain future, because of the severe austerity cuts administered by the past and present Westminster governments and the total mismanagement of the MOD and to man and woman  they should be holding their heads in shame.
       
      For Cameron and Hammond to come out and say what they did today was appalling.
       

    94. Wingman 2020 says:

      The average salary in UK is £26,000
      50% of wage earners in Scotland are earning less than £21,000
      I’d hazard a guess that Portsmouth is much more expensive to run than anywhere on the Clyde.

    95. Ann says:

      That should read all three sites and Filton, not “AT” Filton.

    96. call me dave says:

      To me I see some folk in the media, heads down , shuffling their shoes and coming across reluctant to accept that the deal was a commercial decision.  Some looking like we don’t deserve to be awarded the work, a wee bit embarrassed that on this occasion the workforce did well.
       
      Once we realise hat this was not a gift but an 800+ job loss blow but at the same time an opportunity to prosper and celebrate the fact that we can do it better.
       
      C’mon don’t let Mags, Lamont or Davidson threaten us, Scotland will be able to vote YES and get on with improving our country.   Stop looking back look forward. 🙂

    97. callum says:

      David Cameron’s quote/outburst at the end of PMQ’s was quite telling, although, would anyone care to decode what he could mean by it?
       
      Did he mean?   Without Scotland paying in all the tax revenue to the UK economy, the UK could not afford any ships? 
       
      Or, (this is what ITV thought he meant) that Scotland couldn’t afford a ny ships on her own?

    98. Jimsie says:

      They want work in Portsmouth? They are welcome to the Trident nuclear subs.

    99. Macart says:

      @Ann
       
      Well said, couldn’t agree more. I can only hope that many more of the BAE workforce on the Clyde and in fact people of Scotland have taken notice of the actions of their own parliamentary MPs as well as Cameron and Hammond. These politicians will see no problem with what they’ve said and done in Commons today.

    100. john king says:

      WND says

       I’m a relatively new convert to YES, since moving back north from the Home Counties in the summer, so I haven’t yet cultivated the ability to let the propaganda wash over.

        Know how you feel,
      it never gets easier to see out and out lies, and you cant counter them,
       my wife’s losing the will to live because of my rants at the tv ,
      but WND you get a deep steely determination which feeds off your anger and you get a sense of peace in the knowledge that what your doing IS IMPORTANT I’m not Gaelic so I will resist  the soar alba gu brath and instead say 
      DONT LET THE BASTARDS GET YOU DOWN 🙂

    101. msean says:

      If they keep ‘saving’ shipyards like they have over the last few decades,there will be nothing left.Every time something gets saved,it gets smaller.

    102. Macart says:

      @John King
       
      What you said. 😀

    103. Ellie says:

      Well the piece by Benedict Brogan in the telegraph actually makes the Daily Mail piece look calm and reasoned; it’s vile, though it exposes the mindset of the people complaining.  I have sent links to all my friends and family who are either planning to vote No or who don’t know in the referendum, might do them some good.

    104. call me dave says:

      Just realised…. where’s the voice of reason in all this… labour shadow defence spokesperson Vernon Coaker.  Aye I’ve never heard of him either. Murphy no more.
      No statement from the two Ed’s either from the real labour party.
      Astonishingly Milliballs at PMQ’s never brought up the yards.  Going on the English NHS.
      PS:
      Where does this place trident in the negotiations for iScotland I thing the value has just gone up dramatically when the bargaining starts.
       

    105. tartanfever says:

      Conundrum of the day:
       
      Unionist politicians concerned about having warships built in a ‘foreign’ land having a go at the bare BAE order book because they haven’t persuaded anyone else to have their warships built on ‘foreign’ land.

    106. Ann says:

      Macart
       
      Don’t worry on that front.  There are quite a few yessers at my work place.  We may not have made our feelings felt or go around with badges, but we are there and niggling and nudging away at the doubters.
       
      I’ll tell you what.  Last year at one of the employee site meetings a question was asked by someone “What will BAE Systems do in the event of a Yes vote”.  He stated that he would prefer that Scotland vote no to save jobs.
       
      Well you cut have cut the atmosphere with a knife with that comment.  Some of the looks he got were very scathing.  He couldn’t get away quick enough after the meeting ended.
       

    107. Wingman 2020 says:

      Shipbuilding in Clyde has always been ‘on the back foot’, ‘under threat’ and ‘a political football’ largely dependent and at the whim of that wasteful overspending monster called the MOD.

      No matter how you look at it this is another 800 jobs going out of Scotland because we are unable to control our own economic levers.
      Lets get out of this corrupt Union. Look at how the Yards can be used to build a Scottish Navy, protection for the Oil Rigs and some wind / wave harvesting ships or platforms.  

      There is also a fairly robust cold water super yacht market (unlike shipping it was not impacted post 2008) that needs high technology, luxury furnishings, fittings and other features that our electronics engineers, sparks and chippies have the skills for.

      Lets have some leadership and vision.  

      Suffice to say that Norway and Denmark have excellent shipping and ship building industries. While shipping in Scotland seems to hide.

      Does anyone recall the debacle in 2005 when it was discovered that Glasgow lost the EU maritime college bid, due to a dodgy behind the scenes deal to give Surrey the EU police college??  In other words, the whole bid Glasgow went through was a shame.  

      The Scots were just as renowned as sailors as the Norwegians and Danish.  
      Scots Navy
      Navy Assets

      Lets build up a navy and shipping industry to be proud of again. 

    108. Douglas says:

      My question is: Who builds the Trident nuclear missiles for the MOD?
       
      The answer of course is the USA, a foreign country.

    109. Dramfineday says:

      And not forgetting this rather interesting chap. I viewed his noble coupon the other day when completing the final leg of the Fife Costal Trail.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Cochrane,_10th_Earl_of_Dundonald
      For myself – I have a dream – that we build several large ships capable of flying off aircraft, helicopters and sic like and that these ships will be loaded not with weapons of war, but with the weapons of a peaceful people with open hands – medicines, medical gear, operating theatres, provisions to rebuild life, to provide education, shelter and help where it is most needed. As a new Scotland it would be our offering to the world to make some recompense for some of what has gone on before in our name. But that’s just me and I need to get an independent Scotland for that dream to even get to first base.

    110. john king says:

      Atypical Scot says
      “There seems to be some brain interference. It’s the UK that likes boats with guns, that’s one of the things we take the piss out of them for.”
      I get what your saying but the real poitic at the moment isthose guys in govan build warships and thats what theregood at, but post a yes vote, then all bets are off, we can then get tenders for commercial shipping and the collective memory arond the world will still remember when ALL  their ships came from Govan 
      and that as they say is PRICELESS 🙂

    111. Ellie says:

      Wingman 2020
      I think you’ve hit the nail square on the head; after independence we shouldn’t even be considering allowing EW&NI military access to the Clyde for ANYTHING.  We will need to start building up our own military, so let’s our government offer that contract to BAE (there’s a question, will they need to change their name?) for Govan and Scotston only. 

    112. john king says:

      for Christ sake rev why cant we edit posts after someone else has posted? jesus

    113. John grant says:

      It’s my opinion that there’s as much chance of the type 26 being built on the Clyde as a snowball in hell no matter the vote next year . I am getting sick of the maybe could whatever, come on wesyminste do you want a monetary union ask the eu what will happen after yes stop this fuckin about grow a pair and tell us what your really thinking 

    114. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      John King
      Secondef
       

    115. Macart says:

      @Ann
       
      Good to hear Ann. Today we’ve seen what Better Together actually means… stick without carrot. Pretty much as close to naked threat as you’ll get from a politician and supposedly one of our own holding his own constituents to ransom. Doesn’t get much lower in my book.

    116. tartanfever says:

      English job losses   900
       
      Scottish job losses   @800
       
      from the media interviews:
       
      Portsmouth workers:
       
      ‘we build a better product than them (Govan)’
       
      ‘we have better skills’
       
      ‘it’s alright for those workers in Scotland’
       
      Govan worker:
       
      ‘the job losses are sad for everyone, we’re thinking of our comrades in Portsmouth who have suffered’
       
      Better together ?

    117. gman says:

      1 Shutting Portsmouth leaves only uk yards in Glasgow capable of building type 46.
      2 according to Carmichael / smart, UK will never build warships outside UK
      3 post yes, type 46 contracts won’t go to Glasgow.
      Doesn’t square.  They are going to reinstate shipbuilding on south coast at considerable cost?

    118. john king says:

      Sometimes someone says or does something that just makes you stand back in surprise and gives you pause for thought and pushes your perceptions to another dimension, just such an idea was put to us,,and is so radical,and so full of possibilities 
      it needs full consideration
      people I give you 
      dramfineday
      “For myself – I have a dream – that we build several large ships capable of flying off aircraft, helicopters and sic like and that these ships will be loaded not with weapons of war, but with the weapons of a peaceful people with open hands – medicines, medical gear, operating theatres, provisions to rebuild life, to provide education, shelter and help where it is most needed. As a new Scotland it would be our offering to the world to make some recompense for some of what has gone on before in our name. But that’s just me and I need to get an independent Scotland for that dream to even get to first base.”
      Sir/Madam I salute you,
      that idea is the most mindbogglingly greatest idea I think I have ever heard.

    119. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      gman
      They will declare Scotland not to be a foreign country, just like Eire?

    120. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “for Christ sake rev why cant we edit posts after someone else has posted? jesus”

      Because you can’t find me a better comments plugin.

    121. Jamie Arriere says:

      Heard BBC speak to a chap from Portsmouth Chamber of Commerce called Jimmy Chestnutt and he was a good deal more level-headed than the politicians about matters, and said that much more will be done to diversify ; mentioned the recent investment from Westminster to help them do that, and generally had a sense of perspective about the future employment prospects in Portsmouth re the naval base & repair work ie not all doom and gloom, and no point-scoring.
       
      Then, I heard Jamie Webster the Govan head shop steward, (who I am constantly impressed with every time I hear him speak – the most positive ‘can-do’ trade union guy I’ve seen) look the camera in the eye and say “We’ll get through this”. I wonder what he thinks about Davidson ‘break clause’ idea?
       
      Much more interested in what these guys say than the MSM/Westminster froth.
       
      ps Ann, as a BAe employee, may I ask is there any truth in what an employee at Portsmouth said, that most of the directors making the decision were Scottish?
       

    122. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      John King
      There is a spare flat top going cheap without planes and stuff.

      Could be converted to global reach rescue ship, based in Simonstown in South Africa on a care and readyness base. Helicopters based on board.

      Staff, medical and specialist engineering, all volunteers to be flown out at 24  hours notice. Would need specialist support ships, suppliers, fuel etc, from Scandinavia (?) bl;onde nurses of course.

      I had thought of this some time ago but have no idea about costs etc

    123. Krackerman says:

      It’s type 26 mate not 46 I think.. and if they are as good as the type 45 you don’t want ’em.
      The 45 is a white elephant – expensive – high maintenance and lacking in capability…
      It’s is however a showcase for the finest French and Italian weaponry and technology….
      Nothing really British about it though…

    124. liz says:

      The establishment and a lot of politicians in this country are despicable.
       
      The anti Scots propaganda has been going for some time in the mainly English press to turn the south against us.
      By telling the south that we are subsidy junkies, making them think they pay for our free care etc.
       
      I’m not sure what the point is – maybe the establishment know we wiil vote Yes and are saying ‘good riddance etc’ – I really don’t know.
       
      What gets clearer by the day is that this ‘union’ is finished – if not next year then soon

    125. Jock McDonnell says:

      As someone above said, every time they save a yard, it seems to get smaller. They are not really saving, they are cutting of course.

      I just don’t think people are deceived by this anymore.

      Listening to the workers who were interviewed, they seem to understand the machinations. I don’t see them thinking the union saved their jobs, not when the same union has ‘lost’ 30K shipyard jobs since the UCS.

      Many of them know a game changer is needed to escape the bait-ball.

    126. HandandShrimp says:

      The UKippers on the Mail are frothing gently..although it appears to be a minor story there where it seems to be crazy day with stories about global warming and life coming from clay and all manner of weird stuff.
       
      Carmichael and Davidson and co. are increasingly making the decision sound like one that is directly linked to a No vote and thus a bribe. This is infuriating people in England and although I have little time for Kippers I do have sympathy for the ordinary man in the street being upset by this. Carmichael and Co. are simply ensuring that Scots are hated. They are doing little to promote a Better Togetherness.

    127. JLT says:

      I’m going to stick my neck out here a wee bit, and say this…
       
      I don’t think this has benefited ‘Better Together’ or the UK in any way today. I don’t think that it has damaged the ‘Yes’ campaign in any real way either, and I’ll say why.
       
      First. Look around. No one in Scotland is crowing. Even though Govan and Scotstoun may have won future orders, then why does it feel like a wake. The reason is simple enough… 25% of the Scottish workers in those areas are going to lose their jobs. Plus the Scottish people feel terrible as to what has happened at Portsmouth also. Everyone is upset.
       
      Second. We have heard no peep from Lamont, Davidson, Miliband. In fact, they are all hiding. As far as I am concerned, Johann Lamont is now the World Champion at hide and seek. Everytime something goes wrong in Scotland, that woman is hiding with Shergar, Lord Lucan and Jimmy Hoffa. We have begun to see the real Johann in times of crisis. She does not give one a feeling of encouragement or security. She’s finished.

      BT and Labour know there is no victory in this. If they’ve seen the news, they know the English are mighty upset with Scotland. Really upset! There is no danger Labour are going to say a word. To crow, would only inflame a lot of English people.
       
      Third. The Scottish people know what this is. They understand it has nothing to do with the skills set of the shipbuilders in both countries. We know the skills sets of both countries is excellent.

      This was political, and the Scottish people know it! They know that Govan and Scotstoun have been pawns in a bigger game. They know the Scottish Government didn’t cause this. This decision was Westminster’s.
       
      Fourth. The Scottish people are uneasy. They’ve seen Tory promises before, and they’ve seen them being broken while the Tories smile at Scotland as they do it.

      The people are extremely wary about this new work going to Scotland. Vote ‘Yes’ …lose the order. Vote ‘No’ …and you might lose the order anyway with the decision being reversed due to ‘unseen and unfortunate circumstances’. We’re not daft. We sense it. We ALL sense it. We feel the fear…
       
      If anything, I think a lot of folk may have been left feeling uneasy about what happened today. There are no guarantees on the table here, and who is to say, that Westminster doesn’t hammer Scotland in another way, post ‘No’.

      If anything …I think a lot of folk who were ‘Don’t Knower’s’ may now be wondering if it really is wise to remain within the Union. They saw the dark face of Westminster politics today, where Scotland ‘won’ this round… but what may we ‘lose’ tomorrow…
       
      I don’t think the ‘Yes’ campaign has been damaged here. I think Westminster did itself no favours today.

    128. rabkae says:

      [b]Be careful with your info Rev.[/b]
       
      The Turkish thing is out of date as they’re no longer interested…
       
      http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/lockheed-martin-sole-bidder-left-for-frigates.aspx?pageID=238&nID=21199&NewsCatID=345

    129. john king says:

      Bugger the Panda says @ 7.58
       that’s a very exiting though Bugger 
      this could revolutionize “global reach” from being a threatening prospect to a very much more acceptable vision for the worlds future,
       imagine anchoring a huge aircraft carrier off the coast of Somalia with an intention not to bombard and kill but to heal and save,
       I know that’s a very optimistic view but the protagonists (if any) could be promised a world of pain if they ever dreamed of interfering with  (or attacking) the operation 
      I’m liking your thinking 🙂

    130. john king says:

      sometimes you just see things which resonate with you,
      it seem this evening we have a wealth of people with insight lost on others 
      ” Johann Lamont is now the World Champion at hide and seek.”
      superb!  (keek) 🙂

    131. Ann says:

      Jamie
       
      A few of the high up ones are Scottish, but don’t let that fool anyone.  They are not Scots for nothing.  They can be pretty ruthless.   Whether sites are based in England, Wales, Scotland or anywhere else sites are based if they have to make cuts to cut costs they will.  My site has had 3-4 rounds of cuts in the last couple of years and we are at the stage where we are at the bare minimum to be viable.
       
      They have had to make very hard decisions over last few years that have lead to 1,000’s of people to lose their jobs.  They do try to mitigate compulsory redundancies and try their hardest to try and move work around the sites.
       
      It really isn’t a good time to be working in the manufacturing sector.

    132. Macart says:

      @John King
       
      Seconded on that outstanding use for a military craft. Now that’s what you call a force for good. 🙂

    133. scottish_skier says:

      I don’t think this has benefited ‘Better Together’ or the UK in any way today. I don’t think that it has damaged the ‘Yes’ campaign in any real way either
       
      And you’d be bang on. If anything, it’s damaged BT and promoted Yes, just like Grangemouth.
       
      Having hammered home how Westminster’s whims can potentially make or break thousands of jobs / destroy or preserve important assets in Scotland with a snap of the fingers is hardly an advert for the union. Rather, it makes people feel like it’s the 1980’s all over again.

    134. creag an tuirc says:

      The day before independence we’re a trusted equal partner within the UK (I know, I jest) , the day after a Yes vote we’re an enemy of the state and here was me thinking that an independent Scotland would be rUK’s closest, most trusted and uniquely intertwined ally. All oot the windae because we dare to aspire to self-determination.

    135. Alba4Eva says:

      Thanks John King.  and WND, once your eyes are open, they never shut again.  🙂

    136. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I don’t suppose it was included anywhere that Norway has a navy of 70 vessels of various sizes and capabilities  ALL OF THEM BUILT IN NORWEGIAN YARDS and it also builds the UK Antarctic vessels or, as has just been pointed out to me today,we need to replace at least 100 Ferries over the next twenty years 

    137. Alba4Eva says:

      JLT… thanks for sticking your neck out. Glad you did 🙂

    138. mr thms says:

      I don’t like the fact that there is a threat..
      Scotland would be importing parts from the rUK.
      It will help their balance of payments and Scotland’s exports.
      To pinch a Better Together term – The best of both worlds
      Also..
      If the SNP win the first GE, in an independent Scotland, BAE can expect a cut in Corporation Tax.
      I came across this item from September.
      http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-10/bae-systems-new-global-combat-ship-draws-export-buyer-interest.html
      BAE Systems New Global Combat Ship Draws Export Buyer Interest
      8 countries interested and a potential order for 30 ships?
      UK not committed to 13 vessels until mid-decade?
       
       

    139. JLT says:

      Thanks Scottish_Skier
      I’m glad someone can seeing my thinking.
      I think by letting a few hours go by, watched various news reports, and even just listened to the comments of my wife (who also smelled a rat, and she isn’t politically astute as we all are), then it left me to believe that if my wife can sense it …so can the majority of Scotland.
       
      There are too many people who grew up in the 80’s and 90’s and who remember what the Tories did then, and we all know this lot are far worse than Thatcher. My blood chills to think, that we Scots, are supposedly led to believe, that we are indebted to Westminster’s difficult decision today. I feel as though we are supposedly thanking the devil here for his merciful benevolence. I feel as though one day …we will have to pay a price.
      And I believe a lot of my countrymen sense that fact too.

    140. Jamie Arriere says:

      Thanks Ann, it was a throwaway remark from an angry Portsmouth body about to lose his job, so I understand the feelings behind it, and suspect the guy deep down himself doesn’t believe it a factor himself.
       
      But I could do without the MSM overegging the political decision over the business decision in a particularly fraught industry which has been struggling for years.

    141. Chris says:

      You should watch the UK Defence secretary on Channel 4 news broadcast at 7pm today. He said that if Scotland votes yes then the type 26 frigates would be part of a complex negotiation between the two governments. He also did not answer straight questions about whether the contract would go back to Portsmouth. Is it cynical old me, or is it a case that such negotiations would be “you can construct the type 26 frigates as long as we can keep Trident at Faslane”. I think that BAE has just given the UK government a carrot for a no vote and a stick if it is a yes vote. 

    142. Alba4Eva says:

      My initial gut reaction was anger JLT.  But I think you are right and we should never underestimate the Scottish people… even as Scotland is bombarded with unionist propaganda relentlessly, the majority will smell the sheeit before it is even over the horizon.

    143. ronnie anderson says:

      One of the Shipyard workers said STV 6pm news ( nothing they could do about it its out of their hands . NAW PAL its NO every Shipbuilder in Scotland have the POWER  to CHANGE THINGS START A SCOTTISH UNION DITCH LABOUR MOOTH PIECES AND VOTE  YES EMPOWER YOUR SELVES  OR CONTINUE TO LIVE IN FEAR

    144. Ann says:

      Chris,
       
      Portsmouth Dockyard only has about 6 months work left and will probably be closed before the end of 2014.
       
      Once closed I very much doubt that it will be re-opened.  It would cost to much money.
       
      BAE will be quite happy with the Naval Base and it upgrades for the QE Carriers and their and the fleets upkeep for years and years to come.

    145. JLT says:

      Hi Caesar!4Eva
      Thanks. As I said in a much earlier comment, my workmate, Pete said that as far as he was concerned, ‘the phoney war is over. It’s begun’, and I can see why Pete thought like that.
      Even during the interviews with the workers from the Scottish shipyards, you could see that the workers were down. They felt no joy in any of the decisions made today. If anything, Scotland feels heartbroken for Portsmouth too. We are not crowing. No one is. Today was a dark day for both nations.
       
      As someone who loves history, I understand why Portsmouth resonates so strongly with the English people. To them, they just saw their maritime history pass into that …history. Even the English people understood what happened here today. They knew Scotland was given a gift, and the cost was English naval pride. It was surrendered to keep Scotland in the union. That has not gone down well at all with many in England.
      There was politics within politics within politics today. I even wonder if the Tories did this deliberately knowing that it would stir passions. BAE also knew what it was doing. As Chris above has just said, ‘I think that BAE has just given the UK government a carrot for a ‘No’ vote, and a stick if it is a ‘Yes’ vote.’
      Politics today ran deep …very deep …that the waters are almost black.

    146. gillie says:

      There is a growing feeling that no matter the result of the referendum Govan will not survive.

    147. Wingman 2020 says:

      A real sh*tstorm over on the Telegraph 
      It is apparent that the English are incredibly uninformed about Independence. 
      Some of them think Scotland lives on English taxes and charity! Seriously. 

    148. Chris says:

      If Govan had closed not Portsmouth and there was a yes vote  the UK government would have lost a good bargaining position over trident. Portsmouth will not be closing until 2014 and will probably be staying open until after Sept 2014. If it is a yes vote I would bet that the 3 small surface shapes would immediately go to Portsmouth to add some spice to the negotiations between the governments. I also understand that Portsmouth was closed between 1967-2003 so they could easily bring it back after a few months on inactivity especially as many of the workers will be redeployed in the adjacent yard. Also, do not forget Barrow- it is a huge facility which could also construct the type 26 frigates although primarily a submarine yard.

    149. Dramfineday says:

      John King, Bugger the Panda, & Macart
      exactly guys – a force for decency and humanity

    150. MochaChoca says:

      @John King
      “couple of those with saltires fluttering would be a braw sight !”
      That made my heart skip a beat
      Take a ganders
      http://www.flickr.com/photos/107894926@N07/

    151. Wingman 2020 says:

      Can someone do a cartoon of Davidson running around chasing ship yard workers with a bayonet?

    152. albaman says:

      Aye,
      Chris is correct in as much that the contract to build these type 26 ships will go ahead after a YES vote.
      but only if the Westminster government could come to an agreement with the
      Scottish government over TRIDENT. (that could be = that they stay in their base until the order for the construction of those type 26 ships is completed) 
      I do think that Westminster is thinking that far ahead.
       

    153. dave kemp says:

      Still, we now have most of the oil, water , whisky, nukes and are the only ones to build their ships.
      Are BT playing a blinder here or dealing themselves a losing hand ?

    154. rabb says:

      Could we be seeing BAE preparing itself for a Yes vote next year?
       
      Moving it’s eggs into the Clyde basket safe in the knowledge it has a T26 contract in the bag, a more cost effective & skilled workforce (it’s all about the bottom line you know!)?
       
      Let’s face it. The balance of payments black hole for rUK would be as welcome as a fart in a space suit.

      Anyone who suggests the contract will go elsewhere after a yes vote is either monumentally deluded or a Labour MP who is so desperate to stay on the gravy train he’ll say and do anything.

    155. dave robb says:

      During WW2 the US supplied 32 Evarts Class and 46 Buckley Class destroyer escorts which became the RN Captain Class, and collectively sank more U-boats than any other class of vessel.  They also built 21 Tacoma class escorts which became RN Colony Class escorts.    All this was in addition to the 50 ancient destroyers that most people know about.   The main UK “tradition” is one of myth and legend (or bullshit if you prefer).

    156. Jingly Jangly says:

      More likely that BAE is looking at all the ship building up for grabs for the SDF.
      They also know they need to diversify and the best option for future work once the SDF/Ruk work is complete  is with the renewables and oil and gas sector.

    157. Wingman 2020 says:

      @jingly  You might have hit the nail bang on the proverbial head.  BAE will be keeping their own eye on the future.  

    158. Iain says:

      @dave robb
      Wow, I stand corrected.

      ‘the UK has never built a warship in a foreign country’

      ‘In June 1941 HMG, seeking to take advantage of the US Lend-Lease program, asked the United States to design, build and supply an escort vessel that was suitable for anti-submarine warfare in deep open ocean situations.’

    159. MochaChoca says:

      Of course it’s possible that Westminster have simply decided that it’s far cheaper to get these built abroad and come September will be able to blame those pesky Scots for taking away the capacity to build them in the UK. Especially when you see the cost overruns on the carriers.

    160. KillieBoab says:

      Portsmouth worker on the telly earlier said that most of their General Managers were Scots. Just had a night out with a mate who is one of them and he tells me it is very true, because Portsmouth don’t have the ability to build ships without Scots guidance. That is going to improve between now and 2016 is it, Ian Davidson?

    161. Dcanmore says:

      Okay folks, here’s my tuppence worth. I believe the decisions taken earlier is the first nail in the coffin of ship building in the UK as it stands today. The Scottish yards are on death notice by the UK government. If there are no solid foreign orders along with the initial 13 for the Royal Navy then the Type-26 will be cancelled, remember there is another Strategic Defence and Security Review in 2015, the last one finished off the Nimrods, Harriers, Ark Royal/Illustrious and RAF Leuchars. This fits nicely with the ‘production gap’ between the carriers and the Type-26.
      Three Ocean Patrol Vessels have been ordered, these are essentially light frigates at about £80m each as opposed to the Type-26 GCS at £350m each. With the T-26 cancelled in 2015 after review (if there are no foreign orders) then a further 12 OPVs will be ordered to fill the security gap. That leaves the Type-45 destroyers, Bay-Class and the carriers ‘projecting’ the Royal Navy around the world stage. After the OPV order is fulfilled at Govan/Scotstoun the yards will close in 2020. All renovation/refitting work will shift to Portsmouth and Devonport permanently.
      Fast forward to 2040, these ships of the Royal Navy are now at end of service, new ships ordered will come from foreign yards, most likely the USA where BAE will have relocated most of their original British operations but they will still be based and maintained at Portsmouth and Devonport of course.
      There is a trend happening in the British military over the past 20 years. Where a British-made item is retired, it seems to be replaced by a foreign-made item. This is a creeping process which has seen the UK only now building the Typhoon and Hawk jets (as foreign orders last), no transport aircraft are built in the UK (military or civilian). It is likely that future tanks and APCs will come from General Dynamics in the USA, called the Future Dynamic Weapons System providing 4000 vehicles for the British Army.
      It seems to me that the UK will reduce it capacity to manufacture even further and will only be capable of refitting in the future (in sea, land and air systems). Why the politicians of this country make these sort of decisions when in other (all?) European countries they still take much pride in manufacturing, is anybody’s guess, but is sure seems a very self-destructive process.

    162. Midgehunter says:

      @ Rev
      Sorry but I posted my comment at 10.17 pm on the wrong article “Seeing no ships” instead of “Spread around town”. The titles were similar.
      Any chance you could wave yar wand and switch it over? – mea culpa

    163. Jingly Jangly says:

      Scotland tonight.
      History lesson how wonderful Labour was giving us all the Trident refit work and the Carriers only for the nasty Tories to make job cuts or transfer the work to England.

    164. Linda's back says:

      Got back to hear the tailend of Newsnight UK with a balanced trio of Kirsty Wark, Michael Moore and Anas Sarwar who as usual did not answer a single question and waffled as usual.

    165. theycan'tbeserious says:

      After today the people of England are going to want answers. The wasteminster government are going to have to explain why they want to keep Scotland? The truth will have to come out as to why Scotland is so valuable to the uk….or they will have to set us free to appease the anger of the English people. 
       
      The people of Scotland should be questioning themselves…..are we really better together are jobs safer in the uk, or have we just witnessed Scotland’s future as part of the uk?
       
      Sad day 

    166. Robert Kerr says:

      Have a look at the BAE/UK Gov patrol boat order for the Clyde announced today.
       
      https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-offshore-patrol-vessels-for-royal-navy?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed
       
      These would be useful in the Scottish Navy. BAE really has an I to the future.

    167. Linda's back says:

      On Newsnight Scotland , Jamie Webster from Govan Unions talking sense about building Frigates on the Clyde after independence.

    168. ronnie anderson says:

      WELL DONE JAMIE WEBSTER FIRST CLASS COMMENTS DAVIDSON BETTER NO TACKLE YOU FOR A SHOP STEWARD YOUR YOUR OWN MAN CHEERS ANYBODY ON HERE IN THE SHIPYARDS PLEASE PASS THIS MESS ON

    169. ronnie anderson says:

      HOW MUCH MONEY HIZ DAVIDSON EARNED FAE ALL THESE INTEVIEWS BBC/ STV WITHIN 30MIN OF EACH OTHER

    170. Bingo Wings Over Scotland says:

      An interesting slant on things…
      “To take the example of the aircraft carriers, we are told that we run the risk of losing such related military contracts for our defence industries but Scotland has received £300 million in military contracts as a result of the aircraft carriers. However, the total cost is over £6 billion. Scotland – in contributing 9.9% of total UK taxation – subsidises such projects to a much larger sum of £614 million.”http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/…/

    171. Pauls says:

      Why in God’s name are you waffling on  about  WWII? Or Norway, who readily acknowledge they pay way over the odds to retain the work for their shipyards?

      The Eu did not exist during WWII, EU regulations are what determines Military contracts – and Article 346 is King.

      Either you invite tenders on a world wide basis and award contracts on ‘best value’  or you apply for a  derogation on article 346- 1(b) (which is not obligatory).

      An independent Scotland is automatically ineligable for the new contracts on the basis of Article 346 – it can only gain them IF it puts in the most cost efective bid.

    172. gordoz says:

      scottish_skier says – 8.45pm
      My thoughts too – akin to Deja Vu in a sad way, but may have a side benefit for those scots who still think for themselves. Surely a wake-up call to the fact that Westminster still ‘pulls the strings’ via the Scottish MP puppets there-in.
      Just watch there smug performance at Scottish questions.  

    173. A2 says:

      Just heard David Cameron say.
      “If there were an independent Scotland, we won’t have any warships at all”

    174. Edward says:

      Just watched Newsnight and Newsnight Scotland
      First we were treated to a package on the BAE closure and redundancies
      Followed by in studio discussion with Michael Moore,, who was basically non-committal and waffled. Then Anwar Sarwar spouting his ‘we must have unity across the UK’ guff and like Moore just waffled.
       
      So onto Newsnight Scotland and Gordon Brewer trying to be clever had convener Jamie Webster. Brewer attempted to get Jamie Webster to make a political comment regarding the referendum, brewer was hoping that Jamie would be compliant. At first Jamie stated from the start that he didn’t want to entertain any politicisation of the happening of the day. Jamie has now got my attention and I thing the attention of everyone watching. He then told Brewer, that in the event of a Yes vote, that would be the democratic right and the decision of Scotland, he would expect every politician to get behind the decision and would expect that the orders from London would continue on to be built!
      I swear Brewers jaw just dropped. Mine did. It was refreshing to hear common sense for once (and yes I thrust my fist in the air)
      Normal service however was resumed when the following interviews were with Willie Rennie, Ian Davidson with SNP’s James Dornan. Interestingly Willie Rennie, being the first to speak after the interview with Jamie Webster, did the politician thing about agreeing with what Jamie had said and began by stating that he would fight for Scotland, if Scotland voted Yes, but then as he droned on, reverted to type
       

    175. gordoz says:

      I propose that Jamie Webster is put in charge of the Unions in Scotland. Sounds relatively fair minded and measured in his responses. Most unlabour like.
       
      Scottish Questions ‘Slapstick & Back patting double Act’ (as usual)
       
      Nice to see the Westminster Machine that is the ‘better together’ team of the ConDems on one side and their partners Labour all working towards the common goal of belittling Scotland, her industry and her people.

    176. Jeannie says:

      It’ll be interesting to see what the money men make of all this and the effect on BAE’s share price.  So often, I find, you get better information reading the business pages than the supposed “news” pages.  If the politicians keep insisting that the UK government will not honour their commitment to give the order to the Scottish yards post independence, will it negatively affect the share price?  I think that’s what I’ll be keeping an eye on. 

    177. schrodingers cat says:

      andrew neil, kindly pointed out, straight after PMQ’s that at the time of the union, 1707, england had over 200 ships, scotland had 3
      in 2013, scotland has…………..bugger all
      vote yes in 2014

    178. Alba4Eva says:

      Jeannie… sense… follow the money.

    179. Papadocx says:

      Be interesting to watch the different English/Scottish management of the news in the national papers and BBC. Play both ends against the middle, divide and rule. Propaganda moving up a gear.

    180. Tom Potter says:

      If I was a shipbuilder in Portsmouth I’d be less than happy with the way I’d been treated by Cameron and Hammond. There’s the public story that it is a hard headed commercial decision and the private briefings from No 10 and the MOD that it’s all the fault of the Jocks. This serves two purposes 1. to distract the Portsmouth people from DC and the MOD’s defence cuts and to feed the London media who have swallowed the Scottish Referendum angle big time again as a distraction – you would think they’d know better. 2. To try to force the Scots into voting No at next years referendum under the supposed threat of lack of orders.
      No 2 has no basis in logic or experience viz:
      a) When was defence procurement ever a purely commercial decision in the UK? – Never.
      b) Why would Hammond say the MOD don’t order from foreign countries (in this case possibly Scotland) when they have and do?
      c) Is Hammond (and DC) really saying that in the event of a Yes vote next year he will have got rUK into a position of not having a naval shipyard? (Bet that’ll go down well in Portsmouth). Is he really going to let that happen when he could at worst just mothball Portsmouth till Sept 19 2014 or give them other work. I think he’s bluffing.
      d) I don’t think anyone in Scotland should tug the forelock and thank that nice Mr Cameron for saving the Glasgow Yards as how secure are they if they can treat Portsmouth like that?
      e) If Scotland does go independent there will be a demand for ships from Scotland and whoever else would like ships built.
      Cameron and Hammond must really think our heads button up the back!!!

    181. truescot says:

      As I mentioned yesterday, Portsmouth would close and the frigates will be built on the Clyde.

      After we vote Yes, the frigates will still be built on the Clyde. Has anyone asked that idiot Davidson, if we have not to build any ships for the RN, then what has to happen to the 2 aircraft carriers?, or the 3 patrol boats that have to be built before the frigates.

      All this nonsense can be put in to the same category as “will we still be able to use the pound”.

      So remember, there will be NO shipyard in England capable of building ANY Royal Navy ships. The whole saga is straight out of “Project Fear”.

      P.S. I have worked many times in BOTH yards.

    182. Douglas says:

      I totally agree.  They ie Westminster still think of Scotland and it’s people as a backwater and living in the dark ages, but we still build great ships despite them.
      As a matter of interest where does the MOD procure it’s Weapons of Mass Destruction from?
      Would that be another foreign country?

    183. Doug Daniel says:

      Pauls – “An independent Scotland is automatically ineligable for the new contracts on the basis of Article 346 – it can only gain them IF it puts in the most cost efective bid.”
       
      Sorry, you’re going to have to explain to me how “Scotland” would be able to make ANY kind of bid, never mind the most cost-effective one. The shipyards in question here are not owned by the Scottish government, or even a Scottish company – they’re owned by BAE Systems (headquarters in London).
       
      Upon independence, the Govan and Scotstoun shipyards won’t magically become owned by a Scottish arms company. They will remain under the ownership of the UK’s preferred defence contractor, the company with its headquarters in London. That company will then decide which of its shipyards it builds the ships in – which will be the Clyde ones, because that’s the only ones they COULD be built in. What’s the alternative? The rUK government wouldn’t even be able to demand that BAE reopen Portsmouth, because if security issues are the problem, then BAE Systems are their only option, which BAE Systems would know fine.

    184. Taranaich says:

      @dramfineday: For myself – I have a dream – that we build several large ships capable of flying off aircraft, helicopters and sic like and that these ships will be loaded not with weapons of war, but with the weapons of a peaceful people with open hands – medicines, medical gear, operating theatres, provisions to rebuild life, to provide education, shelter and help where it is most needed. As a new Scotland it would be our offering to the world to make some recompense for some of what has gone on before in our name. But that’s just me and I need to get an independent Scotland for that dream to even get to first base.
       
      My mother always told me back when she was a wee ‘hing, she imagined that they’d be building spaceships on the Clyde. She was heavily influenced by Star Trek, of course. But frankly, I think your idea chimes with hers (and mine): why should a navy be only about defense? I think it would be great to have an entire fleet of ships whose primary purpose is peacekeeping – real peacekeeping, not violent suppression or sheeping spectating – and concentrating on making the seas a safer place. Something like Trek’s starfleet: dedicated to exploring, humanitarianism, and whatnot.

    185. kininvie says:

      @ Doug  @ Pauls
      Doug, what you say is logic, but it ignores the fact that what the UK means is that it only (at least up to now) builds warships on sovereign territory. So it will make any contract with BAE subject to that. Whether it will have anywhere on its sovereign territory where BAE can build these ships is a different issue.
       
      However, as I pointed out further up, Collaborative Defence Procurement is increasingly the norm within the EU (and indeed within NATO). And article 346 is basically just fudged – because if one country can claim exemption, so can two or more working together…
       
      So there’s absolutely nothing to stop Scotland and rUK entering such an agreement over warships, or indeed anything else. Then BAE can build on the Clyde – no problems.

    186. MochaChoca says:

      I’m sure I read that the full radar towers of the type 45s were sent to Thales Netherlands for fitting out? (probably one of the most complex and security sensitive parts of the build)
       
      Kind of suggests collaboration for complex warships is already par for the course.

    187. Pax says:

      for a decent comment editing function go to “add New plugins” and search for “Simple Comment Editing”
      Works a treat Rev
      Pax RFS
       

    188. Pax says:

      LOL.. i see you already added it!

    189. Edward Margerum says:

      The largest supplier of equipment to the US Navy is BEA.  However, the US does require BEA’s operation for the US Navy to be a separate division from the rest of BEA. So the US doesn’t have any qualms about a British company making materiel for American ships. I would think that England would work with other countries, particularly those within NATO and Europe, to produce ships and other defence necessities.

    190. Ian Brotherhood says:

      The Record front page today is shameful. (Rev has tweeted it.)
       
      Boycott the rag – it’s the only way they’ll ever get the message.

    191. KillieBoab says:

      I too thought that Jamie Webster was the best speaker I heard all day. Here is a union leader whose sole concern is his membership rather than himself/his union/any political party.
      Jimmy Reid anyone?

    192. john king says:

      Linda’s back says
      ” who as usual did not answer a single question and waffled as usual.”
      That’s unusual 🙂

    193. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “An independent Scotland is automatically ineligable for the new contracts on the basis of Article 346 – it can only gain them IF it puts in the most cost efective bid.”

      So not “ineligible”, then?

    194. john king says:

      MochaChocha says @ 9.47 
      Nice one Mocha
      I hope it happens
      correction I KNOW IT WILL HAPPEN 

    195. truescot says:

      Jamie Webster will report back to workers of Govan and Scotstoun next week with more details on redundancies and future orders.

      Rev. I think we should try to persuade the local Govan MP Ian Davidson to attend the meeting and explain why it will be a sensible idea to have a “get out clause” wrote into any new contracts saying that they will loss the orders if they vote YES in the Scottish referendum.

      We should also ask him to explain why it is not a security risk to build three complex patrol ships and two massive aircraft carriers.

      Yet building thirteen frigates is somehow a higher security risk, therefore you can’t build them.

      And while we are at it, ask him where these frigates will be built in England, reminding him that Portsmouth will be closed by then.

    196. Kenny Campbell says:

      I think “ineligible” in the sense that some people would want and are looking to punish the workers for the misdeeds of the electorate in Scotland. Its all a bit playground.
       
      If Scotland votes YES and England decides it does not build warships abroad then they just don’t build warships at all. Anyway  in any case Governments don’t build warships, commercial companies do. There is no Royal Dockyard….
       
      The decision is made and the referendum is no longer in the equation as regards where the work goes. The choice is now ships or no ships. Where they would be built is decided.

    197. MochaChoca says:

      Hopefully he’ll also be able to explain why vessels currently being designed in Scotland “cunnae” be built here?
       
      BTW would joint procurement, as suggested by the DFM, exempt the deal from article 346?

    198. scottish_skier says:

      TNS-BMRB poll in the Herald. http://archive.is/RdAXC
       
      Ignore the Yes (shy Yes problem as face to face which you can see in data), but note the No continues to fall and that’s what’s important right now. N = 43%, down from a peak value of 53% recorded at the (evident in all polls) No peak / Yes trough of late 2012; around the time the Edinburgh agreement was signed.
       
      I’m happy.

    199. Another London Dividend says:

      The whole anti Scottish campaign is based on the simplistic messages from the NO Scotland campaign who can’t remove their blinkers and think through issues.
      The decision on Type 26 Frigates announced end of 2014 but even in event of YES vote, Scotland will not be independent until 2016.
      Therefore there could easily be joint procurement or RuK could lease the Frigates or Scotland agree to buy three or four vessels.

      Either way under the Union the Clyde Yards have suffered death by 1000 MoD cuts and we should diversify and be like Norway where despite higher wages shipbuilding is booming with over 100 ships completed last year.

    200. Macart says:

      @Kenny Campbell
       
      What you said.
       
      What we saw yesterday in parliament was the state shooting itself in the foot. The people of Govan were hopefully paying attention to what was said in their name. They were blackmailed by their own MP and used as coinage by Cameron and Hammond. The fact that market forces and a Global company were the real movers and shakers of the current situation didn’t stop the politicians from using them and their fears to make political capital.
       
      We can do so much better as can the unions and workforce of Scotland than be at the mercy of these self seeking gangsters.

    201. Kenny Campbell says:

      I hope the voters who voted in Davidson remember his opt out clause remark. It seems he has hung his hat on his leadership’s peg rather than on his electorate’s.

    202. Doug Daniel says:

      kininvie – “Doug, what you say is logic, but it ignores the fact that what the UK means is that it only (at least up to now) builds warships on sovereign territory. So it will make any contract with BAE subject to that. Whether it will have anywhere on its sovereign territory where BAE can build these ships is a different issue.”
       
      Aye, but then BAE can say “we’re not paying to upgrade the Portsmouth yard just because you want the ships to be built in England. We’ll decide where best to build them. If we’re building the ships, we’re building them in the Clyde.” At which point the rUK government would be faced with two options: award the contract to a British company that wants to build them in non-sovereign territory, or award it to a non-British company that wants to build them in non-sovereign territory.
       
      (Or at least that’s what logic dictates. Nobody ever accused Westminster or the MoD of using logic to make decisions…)
       
      I actually think Kenny Campbell’s got it spot on – if rUK doesn’t want warships built on foreign land, then they won’t be building them at all.

    203. gordoz says:

      This talk of seperation and sense of an abusive partner. See if this sounds in any way familiar.
       
      Lets get this straight –
       
      Do as I say or you’ll regret it (you’ll pay for this and remember its all your fault !)
       
      You show me no respect, all the things I’ve done for you
       
      ( haven’t I always looked after you – Aye right !)
       
      You wont survive without me! ( I control the bank accounts !)
       
      Who do you think you are ! ( you are a nothing !)
       
      You better not leave or you’ll regret it  ! ( Smack in the face coming?)
       
      Everything is mine, I’ll make sure you get nothing (Well we’ll see waht the lawyers will say !)
       
      Know one will want you ! ( I’ll take my chances – stuff this I’m off  !)
       It is scary how similar this whole process sounds !
       
      The obvious choice surely for the victim of bullying –
      Legal seperation to establish independence and sort out your futur free from abuse, manipulation, mind games and lets face it often theft.
      Scotland its your choice! ( YES it is !)
       

    204. Macart says:

      @Kenny Campbell
       
      When their memory gets shaky, we should be there to remind them. They were held to ransom by their own MP and Westminster government. Threatened no less.
       
      Mind you if Ann (above) is any example I don’t think they’ll have a problem there.

    205. Molly says:

      A discussion on BBC radio Scotland on Drivetime  on Monday (near 6pm) had an expert discussing the MOD and it’s future.
      With the return of the troops, the reduction of manpower in the RAF, the reduction of Navy power the one question which will be asked by HM Treasury is why do you need the same or a bigger budget?
      The UK is broke , what will they build after this contract? 
      It would appear vote no stay in the UK and 10 years from now you still won’t have a job

    206. Gillie says:

       
      What we know: The Type 26 frigates will be built on the Clyde irrespective of the referendum vote. The UK government don’t have the money and the MOD don’t have the budget to build them anywhere else. Also the UK Defence Secretary has gone out his way in parliament and on radio-TV not to say that the Type 26 will be built elsewhere. It is a done deal. 
       
      What we don’t know: How many of the ships will be ordered and will Govan survive. There is to be a UK Defence Review in 2015 where it is certain that the number of Type 26 frigates to ordered will be cut back. That number cut could be significant.
      If there is a NO vote it is probable there will not be enough work for both yards on the Clyde – so Govan will likely close. That is the commercial and political reality of that situation.
      If there is a YES vote it is probable that rUK and iScotland governments will seek cooperation on building Type 26 frigates on the Clyde. In many ways they have no choice but to do so. Since an iScotland navy will be frigate based this will almost certainly means more Type 26 orders – Govan will likely survive.
       
       

    207. NorthBrit says:

      @DougDaniel
      Derek Bateman has some evidence suggesting that the MoD might apply logic:
      http://drderekbateman.wordpress.com/2013/11/06/davidsons-choice-state-or-people/

      Meanwhile in cuddly unionist land:
      http://www.openunionism.com/portsmouth-the-government-has-brought-shame-on-the-union/

      My favourite quote of this peculiar article is “… the English, who are increasingly unsympathetic in any case.”  That may not be what the chap meant, of course.

    208. Kev says:

      Utterly despicable remarks last night from Ian Davidson on Newsnight, something along the lines of – the English have sacrificed their jobs in Portsmouth so that Scottish jobs in Govan can remain, and they’ve done it without wingeing about it, if it was the other way round we wouldn’t hear the end of it
       
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03h8s9z/Newsnight_Scotland_06_11_2013/
       
      It astounds me how this guy has the gall to say things like this, especially in front of a Scottish audience.

    209. Gillie says:

       
      I think Derek Bateman is reiterating what everyone is acknowledging that irrespective of the referendum vote Type 26 frigates will be built on the Clyde. What we don’t is how many under the circumstances of a NO/YES vote. However, it is very likely that more Type 26 frigates will be ordered if Scotland votes YES rather than NO thereby securing the future of Govan. 
       
      Today is not a good day for Better Together. The reality of yesterday’s decision is now only beginning to sink in for Scottish unionists. 

    210. Gillie says:

       
      All Ian Davidson has done over the past few days is to reveal himself as a clown. The more he speaks, and we all should encourage this, the more foolish he sounds in public. 
       
      His ‘break clause’ comments will come back to haunt him every-time he opens his mouth. 

    211. call me dave says:

      Well I have forced myself to listen to Call Kaye to check the pulse of the nation so to speak.
       
      I was heartened to hear, that in the main, most callers and experts supported the premise that Clyde built ships for the ‘rUK’ will happen. Also many callers ,bar one, are not feart. 
      😉
       

    212. Murray McCallum says:

      Leaving aside the uncertain future of UK shipbuilding, what struck me about the BBC news last night was the following standard report:
       
      – Portsmouth has been earmarked for closure for the last 3 years (comments from industry experts, politicians, and even some BAE staff alluding to this).
      – The Clyde has logistical advantages (layout of 2 ship yards on two sides of the river).
      – Experienced workforce is in the Clyde shipyards.
      – BAE largely driven by economics and financial return.
       
      BUT virtually every report I heard ended with the implication (and despite all the stated facts) that the decision was largely down to protecting (or subsidising) Scottish jobs in order to secure a “No” vote.
       
      As well as stirring up anti-Scottish sentiment, this is simply insulting on many levels.

    213. Wingman 2020 says:

      Its rather strange that the Better Together crowd tell us UK is THE country, they deny the difference, we are all one….  but they still make the Scottish / English distinction when it suits them.  
      We are two different countries.  We will always be two different countries and those people who think “independence is breaking up my country” are deluded.   
      We were never joined properly in the first place.  It’s time that imperfect join was split for good 
       

    214. Kenny Campbell says:

      His ‘break clause’ comments will come back to haunt him every-time he opens his mouth.
       
      That should be the mantra when anyone sees him, when do we get a break from your mouth Ian….

    215. Edward says:

      I’m punishing myself this morning by listening to ‘Call Kaye’ As usual she talks over people making a point for Scotland . Anyway the thing I keep hearing is the idea that warships are more complicated due to the electronics that have to be installed and that building ‘normal’ ships, Scots shipbuilders would loose skills. ‘Call Kaye’ even had an ‘expert’ stating this
      Well apart from ‘ship to ship’ and ‘ship to air’ missile systems. ‘Normal’ ships require just as much electronics these days. Ships have moved on quite a lot since the days, when navigation was done by compass and sextant!
      Merchant ships have state of the art technology engines, that reduce marine pollution. Navigation is a mix of satellite navigation, Doppler radar, plus anti-collision systems, you just have to look at the electronics sitting on top of these ships http://www.nssm.no/en/newbuildings/offshore-vessels/geo-coral/

    216. Gillie says:

      Edward  
       
      I think everyone knows, 24 hours on, that only Scotstoun and Govan can build complex warships. The UK government is faced with the prospect that if they want Type 26 frigates for the Royal (English) Navy then it has to be the Clyde. It is Type 26 or nothing. 
       
      Kaye Adams can stick two fingers in her ears and go “La, la, la, la ….. la” because that is all she can do on this matter. 

    217. Dcanmore says:

      Article today in the Metro (SE England edition) by John Higginson, political editor, all about how Portsmouth was sacrificed for Scottish shipyards, cue quotes from rabid south coast politicians with little reference to the fact that over 800 jobs will go in Scotland too. Last paragraph states (remember this is a news story not a commentary) that if Scotland becomes independent than it would not be allowed to built British warships. The piece is accompanied by cartoon kilted Scotsmen with SNP t-shirts.

    218. GrahamB says:

      Must be the most biased Call Kaye ever this morning. I’m not a fan of Christmas but this year it can’t come soon enough to get rid of this opinionated woman. Over the years her ‘debates’ have tended to descend to ‘two wrongs make a right’ but she is definitely getting worse by butting-in and talking over contributors when she obviously disagrees with their point of view. Fortunately I have to take the cat to the vet so I don’t have to listen to any more of her unionist p*sh.

    219. Kenny Campbell says:

      Quite a few people on the Herald doing the same with fingers in their ears…

    220. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      GrahamB
      Pity you can’t take Kaye too.

    221. Ivan McKee says:

      @ Scottish skier
       
      re TNS polls.
       
      I agree. Last 3 TNS polls : YES 25/25/25 ; NO 47/44/43
      Drift from No to undecided continues.
       
      Do you know how this one was weighted (SG2011 / UKGE2010?) and has there been any change in TNS weighting methodology in recent polls ?
       

    222. David Smith says:

      @gordoz. Nail on the head with that analogy, chief. 
      That’s exactly the way I’m sensing it. The reaction of many of our people suggests the mindset of an undermined and abused spouse also.

    223. ronnie anderson says:

      Feking, heel timed oot on a call to Kaye mumpmumpmump

    224. kendomacaroonbar says:

      Let’s be clear about this. The establishment will not tolerate Scotlands decision to leave the Union, and therefore every black arts opportunity will be deployed until the Jocks are thoroughly brow beaten back into line. This will continue to ramp up, and unionist drones like Davidson are the first wave.
       
      To me, Davidson epitomises the ‘Q’ word.. he must be a contender for the ‘Golden Bayonet’ award surely ? 😉

    225. Luigi says:

      Project Fear becomes Project Blackmail.

    226. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Listened to most of the Kaye show, on and off, and what I did hear was positive for us – most callers I heard want a Yes result, and everything else is ‘other business’.
       
      First things first…

    227. Luigi says:

      This will continue to ramp up, and unionist drones like Davidson are the first wave.
       
      True, but they chose to ignore Newton’s Third Law.  The harder they try, the more difficult it will get for them.  People won’t put up with this nonsense for another year.

    228. Horacesaysyes says:

      Davidson and his ilk are saying ‘if you don’t do as we say, we’ll pick up our ball and go’, forgetting that there will be a shiny new ball to play with (i.e. orders for ships for a Scottish Navy’) following a Yes vote.
       
      I’d like to hope that the majority of people aren’t stupid, and can see the reality of the situation.

    229. GrahamB says:

      Bugger (the Panda).:
      It was just the cat’s annual check-up and jags, I would hope for something more drastic for Kaye. Unfortunately it is too late to stop her breeding…
      Caught the very last comment on the car radio – a texter wrote in that he/she had now gone from a possible NO to a definite YES. The more we hear from BT and chums the closer we get to the promised land.

    230. Gillie says:

      TNS polls are weighted to UKGE2010.
       
      We do have a number of TNS polls stretching back to Oct 2010 so we can look at the trend in voting intentions. A year ago the gap was 25%, a year on that has now dropped to 18%, a 7% change in voting intentions. 
       
      So I would say this is in line with most polls with the gap closing and support for the NO campaign now in the low 40s.  We also know the undecideds are more likely to vote YES.
       
      So with 10 months to go it is likely the vote is going to be close, as many people have predicted it would be, as voters enrage and make up their minds. 

    231. Desimond says:

      Somewhere in Westminster…..

      “So thats Oil, then Defence….whats next to be hrown into the “Be careful what you wish for” headlights…wont be NHS….transport..well we’ve seen Prestwick saved so doubtful…must be something…..what has great costs and would give us Labour MPs jumping up and down mad on Scottish telly screens……oh i know…lets go after the BBC!

    232. MochaChoca says:

      @Gillie,
      ‘Enrage’ or ‘ Engage’?  freudian slip?
       
      (or maybe a bit of both)

    233. Macart says:

      Been around a few of the usual London title sites and it looks as though the Westminster spads have been doing overtime with their pet commentators. To a man they’re all agreed its the fault of the referendum. Nothing to do with world markets, lack of orders to fill books, equipment, skill sets, business or sheer common sense. No its all the fault of them jocks and their referendum.
       
      Hardly a peep about the 835 jobs in the Scottish yards, nary a word about Cameron’s or Hammond’s insistence that this was a BAE decision and certainly nothing about bruiser Davidson’s blackmail of his own constituents. They have their narrative from their masters and they’ve all come to heel. Effortlessly deflecting their responsibility for the current state of manufacturing UK wide onto their own victims.
       
      They’re consistent in their bullshit, I’ll give them that. The Teflon government and their media pups are reacting fully as expected. All they have to do now is justify themselves and their words (threats) to the Scottish electorate. They have so over sold this bollocks to everyone. The folks on the Clyde don’t button up the back and most especially the workers of Scotstoun and Govan. They know the real deal and so will their families. 
       
      Just vote YES if you want shot of these people.

    234. call me dave says:

      They say that women are the most reluctant to favour independence.  Well the two best calls to Kaye were from women and they cut through the BS no bother.  As well as being articulate and calm were very well informed with a good strong message to all who were listening. 
      YES!
      Brilliant well done!

    235. Gillie says:

      I see the Daily Telegraph are running with the line that it is all Gordon Brown’s fault for the closure of Portsmouth. They argue the dispersal of carrier work led to Portsmouth being at a disadvantage to Govan and Scotstoun.  

    236. Edward says:

      Kenny Campbell – you shouldn’t be surprised that the Herald appears like that as they are actively removing comment that doesn’t fit in with the agenda. I have posted 2 comments on 2 different articles, both well within the rules, yet both removed as I can no longer see them

    237. NorthBrit says:

      Article in Hootsmon upset that nasty nationalists (actually everyone) thinks the Scottish press is biased against independence.  Wings touching a bit of a nerve?
      http://archive.is/LQLsX

      Cites Ian Davidson as support for claim it’s a two way street. #fail

      Full of unintentional comedy gold in several other places e.g.

      “there are plenty of pro-independence voices among our commentariat.”

      “I heard it said by a journalist at a debate about Scottish independence and the media at the Edinburgh festival that his goal was “to create a place where we can have a grown-up and responsible debate about the issues and independence”.
      It is an intention that is shared by almost every editor and journalist I have met working in Scotland.”

      Chap appears to be a bit of a Cnut (and that’s not a typo).

    238. ronnie anderson says:

      DEFENCE SPENDING  UK M.O.D.  Years ago I used to go to BABCOCK & WILCOX  wharehouse in ROTHSYTH DOCKYARD  I had my eyes opened as to the Procurement Dept of the M>O>D> UK  Every thing from A NEEDLE to a ANCHOR for SALE  NEW FRIDGES PC s TORPEDO PROPELERS  the latter were sold in BLOCHAIRN MARKET for £10 a piece ( a old guy made them into clocks ) £ 40 each ) these are procission engineered parts £ 300/£ 400 each  ( bided at  £ 80 a cage ) 30 in cage M>O>D Uk waste money on Procurement  ( BACKHANDERS ) all supply,s ordered are duplicated Surples auctioned off for buttons  SEE BABCOCK AUCTION SITE CATTERICK ) ANYBODY WONT A BOAT / HELECOPTER / TANK / BIG TRUCKS WEE TRUCKS / CARS   ONE CAREFUL    OWNER   Y O U

    239. Kenny Campbell says:

      They no longer post any of my comments, I even changed persona/email address and sex of my online character….nothing. I suspect its now a closed club.

    240. chalks says:

      This is where the free market gets you.
       
      Anyways, I may have interpreted Mr Cameron’s remark ‘without an indy scotland, we wouldn’t have any warships’ to be an admission that Scotland would continue to build the frigates etc…..or was that just me?

    241. Jingly Jangly says:

      One thing we must ensure in an Independent Scotland is that all companies that operate here whether it be Tesco or BAE are registered/HQ’d in Scotland, ie they must have a separate Scottish Identify, none of this “Management Charges” for hundreds of millions of pounds coming from an overseas HQ in order to reduce corporation tax.
       

    242. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Jingly Jangly
       
      It doesn’t matter whether they have a Scottish subsidiary or not, transfer pricing, brand charges, and other management charges can still be applied.
      Think McDonalds, Starbucks, even UK HQ’d companies

    243. MochaChoca says:

      It has crossed my mind before that maybe a more effecive way of getting a reasonable level of tax revenue from overseas owned/run companys which provide products/services to the public here is to forget about corp tax (as they seem to be able to wangle that in such a way that they are able to pay it on a voluntary basis!) and strike a higher rate of VAT or some other transaction levy instead.
       
      Companies which rely on serving the public are not really at risk of withdrawing their businesses providing they can still make a reasonable profit.

    244. lumilumi says:

      @MochaChoca
       
      Surely not higher VAT! It’s payed by the consumers! The company merely collects it for the treasury.
       
      Scotland has a golden opportunity to create a tax system from scratch, make it simple and efficient, close all the loopholes etc. The problem with the UK tax system is that it’s basically hundreds of years old and few things have been removed but new bits have been added until it runs to some 17,000 pages or something and is fiendishly complicated and obscure.
       
      A modern, streamlined tax system in Scotland would perhaps put some accontants and tax lawyers out of a job but think of the savings in bureaucracy and red tape. Even ordinary people might be able to understand most of it!

      And you’re right, retail and service sector won’t want to pull out of Scotland. Why would any company want to pull out of an established market and leave it wide open to their competitors?!?

    245. Scotrock says:

      Sorry my experience today was negative. Met one guy who asked how I feel about the SNP loosing all the shipyard jobs. Then another guy who can’t vote for independence as we would not have any nuclear weapons . West of Scotland I despair!

    246. MochaChoca says:

      @Lumi,
       
      I know what your saying, but all taxes are paid by the consumers (ultimately). it’s just a different means to an end, but far more difficult to avoid.



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