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Wings Over Scotland

It’s the same old song

Posted on June 22, 2022 by

Half a decade apart, almost to the day.

So what are we expecting?

We thought we’d take a quick snap poll just for fun. These are the options we think are at least remotely plausible for next Tuesday’s announcement:


Basically nothing. Sturgeon possibly makes another “formal” Section 30 request, says this is Westminster’s “last chance”, waffles on about how refusal would be even more democratically unsustainable than it’s been until now, gives Boris Johnson the summer recess to consider it, but declines to specify what she’ll do if it’s not granted.

This gets her to September while she prays for some kind of external event, like a change of Prime Minister, which would let her restart the clock like she did in 2017, failing which we’re back to where we are now. The barest minimum.


Sturgeon bluffs. She announces a specific date in October 2023 for indyref2, knowing that she has no possible way to enact it – the Electoral Commission will not co-operate and councils will flat-out refuse to conduct the vote, citing Section 29 of the Scotland Act and daring the Scottish Government to take them to court to try to force them on very questionable legal grounds.

This process will drag on well into 2023, rendering the supposed date impossible, and crucially Sturgeon will again decline to specify what she’ll do if the plan fails.

This gets her most of the way to the 2024 UK general election at which the SNP will demand yet another “mandate” while claiming that they tried to carry out the ones they were given in 2016, 2019 and 2021.


Much like Option 2, except Sturgeon states unequivocally that if her “wildcat” indyref is foiled she’ll contest the next UK general election (currently two and a half years away) as a plebiscite, or immediately dissolve the Scottish Parliament and conduct a plebiscite Holyrood election. The only meaningful move.

(And also, of course, the action Wings and others have been calling for for several years. The SNP have furiously rejected it, saying that no such plan could be deployed until polling was regularly above 60%, COVID was over, the economy had recovered etc etc, none of which has happened.)


Some astonishing Hail Mary that nobody has predicted.

What do you reckon, folks?

What will Nicola Sturgeon do next Tuesday?

View Results

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482 to “It’s the same old song”

  1. Ian McCubbin says:

    Hope the vote goes up into thousands to give credibility. Thanks for doing this Stu.

  2. Malc says:

    Has to be 1. I mean we’ve hosting the Eurovision to get through in 2023, can’t be having a separatist referendum the same year ol blighty wows those pesky Europeans with a r all vintage (and likely jingoistic) show.

  3. Sandra says:

    Honestly, I’m losing the will to care. The SNP under Sturgeon are a busted flush. Even if they do hold a vote they’ll manage to cock it up.

  4. Giesabrek says:

    Option 1 to get her to the next UK GE then opton 2 to get her at least to the following Scottish elections, if not the following UK GE. Both options should give her another 10 years if she’s lucky, and everyone else is unlucky…

  5. Antoine Bisset says:

    We are living in the raddled corrupt wreckage of a nominal democracy. The SNP self-perpetuating clique has promoted an ideal that has allowed them to remain in power by battening on the dreams and hopes of the people.
    Any real move to independence is to be instantly hobbled by joining the EU. Anyone who prefers Brussels to Westminster needs their head looked.
    We can take on the world, if “they” will let us, it seems. There is no stomach for going it alone, for living wild and free, for following the dream at any cost.
    We don’t need to be led from London, or Brussels, or Washington DC. We must not be.
    Don’t look around to see who is going with us. Just go.

  6. Ian says:

    I went for option 2, would like option 3 but wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if she announces option 1.

  7. Chris Darroch says:

    The Herald Times Group will be pestering Nicola to create something for them to feed on.

    The National must be very dry of readers.

    Anything indyref is needed to bolster the doubtless stark state of National support in the Group.

    It will be axed if no hoo ha is produced…… pretend indyref is promised….

    Her destruction of the Yes movement has been disastrous for the National…..

  8. David says:

    It’ll be option 1.
    She doesn’t have the bottle for anything else.

  9. paul says:

    1 is the safest option, those not already pissed off by now are unlikely to be outraged by this statespersonlike approach.
    If refused,it will be a rallying call for even grater support in the following GE.

    2 is useful for generating some smoke without fire,but risky as it leaves the FM open to quite unfair accusations of being obsessed with independence.

    3 is beyond the pale, too much of a volte face for a leader who says elections are not about independence.

    4 Plenty of hail marys have been passed (most notably exit from the EU) and squandered, so that’s a dead loss.

  10. Aulbea1 says:

    Groundhog Years – indeed.

  11. Johnny says:

    Have voted 1, although I could see it being 2.

    4 seems least likely as, if there really was some “wheeze”, do we believe these folk (usually so pleased with themselves) would be able to keep from showing how clever they had been all this time and for no good reason?

    If it is 2, it actually has to be backed up by 4 to be of any worth. Instead, I could just see it being very annoying when the obvious question of how to compel the councils etc is ignored as everyone is told they are to just “get behind Nicola and have faith!”.

    You aren’t allowed to ask how they will “make it so”, just get excited!

  12. James Che. says:

    It is about tome the Scottish people decided.
    And Went for none of the above hobbled options.

  13. David Beveridge says:

    Have faith, everyone. After all, haven’t her followers often told us that she’s got WM right where she wants them, is getting all her ducks in a row and they’re just about to fall into her carefully-set trap?

    Option 1 I reckon.

  14. Ronnie says:

    Halfway between 1 and 2 imo

    Probably closer to 1 that 2 perhaps, but guessing she realises there must be some sort of “offer” of soemthing more than SFA

  15. Lucky says:

    Which one of the above covers a consultative referendum, with a change in wording bringing it within the competencies of the Scottish Government and outside the reach of legal challenge. A consultative referendum which all local authorities will be obliged to participate in, establish a democratic result, and present the UK government with the following options.

    1. Ignore the result, outrage the Scottish people, and seriously boost support for not just independence but democracy itself, effectively rendering the UK dead in the water, and ultimately lining up overwhelming support for Independence at the next GE

    2. Accept their position is unsustainable and enter into negotiations to repeal the Act of Union mutually.

    Did i miss that option? or perhaps Alba have the answer as they launch their campaign also.



  16. fillofficer says:

    option 2 is her only credible plan given her lack of enthusiasm for the big fight
    or maybe she’ll just resign due to current wellbeing woes
    she’ll never beat the january 2020 (under)performance however

  17. John Gibson says:

    What Sandra said, only with even more conviction.

  18. faolie says:

    Option 1. Obvs

  19. Stuart MacKay says:

    Most likely Option 1 but then we’ll know for sure that this charade is carefully choreographed with Westminster. She wouldn’t risk suggesting a route unless she knew that Westminster had already decided to dig up the road.

    Option 2 seems to be the safest bet but it carries the most uncertainty. Inflation will undoubtedly get worse and there’s a real risk of a severe recession. Russia will continue to devour Ukraine. So there’ a whole host of situations that would bale her out, including Armageddon if Biden needs to avoid an ass-whupping in the US mid-term elections in November.

    As for Option 3 – ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha

    Option 4 – the Special Military Operation is extended to de-Truss-ify the UK – yeah, I’d go for that.

  20. Allium says:

    2, since they need a saleable and very public distraction from a potential implosion within the SNP group – the woke faction appears splits in two atm. My money’s on Daddy Bear for the win.

  21. Dave M says:

    I’ve gone for 1 but it was a close run thing with 2. Either way, I expect that there’ll be a great deal of not much in the way of progress. Much like her entire agenda, other than destroying women’s rights.

  22. Denise says:

    Back down the hill

    If my theory of her being totally controlled by the Brits. Then what would the Brits want her to do?

    With Ireland, Brexit and the idiot in number 10 to consider.

    Staying in limbo, kicking the can has worked so far. So they won’t give that play up until it stops working and the good news for them is when it stops with working it’s likely to usher in a unionist government in Holyrood.

    Sturgeon is f*cked she wants to lose an indyref so she can go off to earn big bucks – virtue signally on the world stage but as long as she is useful to the Brits they won’t let her.

    Once a s30 route or Holyrood election route is gone down and shown to be a dead end then that’s maximum danger for the Brits – as the Indy movement will have to go somewhere.
    So better to just stay in limbo and feed the faithful hope.

  23. stonefree says:

    Wish she would just GTF

  24. Denise says:

    I mean Holyrood referendum route of course

  25. Caroline Wilson says:

    Option 2 for purely expediency reasons. I assume even they realise they wouldn’t get away with Option 1, again. Ultimately, both Options 1 and 2 have the same effect – can-kicking.

  26. Peter A Bell says:

    The poll omits the most obvious and likely option – a pretendy referendum. A referendum clearly labelled in such a way as to make clear that it cannot trigger the process of restoring Scotland’s independence. A referendum so weak and ineffectual that not even the British Nationalists will object. A referendum that is not the formal exercise of our right of self-determination that we require.

    Sturgeon gets to claim she’s delivered. The British say we’ve had our second referendum and should now STFU for the next three or four centuries. Scotland’s cause is set back not ten years but fifty!

    If the referendum we are offered is not declared to be the formal exercise of our right of self-determination as guaranteed by the UN; if it is not declared that a Yes vote will trigger specified action initiating the process of restoring independence, then that referendum should be denounced as a fraud and be boycotted by the entire independence movement!

    If Nicola Sturgeon proposes a pretendy referendum then it is time to demand her resignation or removal from the offices which make her the de facto head of the independence movement.

  27. Vivian O’Blivion says:

    She’s boxed herself in. Opt. 1 is an unacceptable rerun of Jan 2020. Opt. 3 would result in retribution from her handlers in MI5 and the US State Department. Opt. 4 would require commitment, enthusiasm and intellect this shower plainly don’t possess.

  28. Mark Boyle says:

    It’s option two – simply because she can get away with it.

  29. Lynn Fraser says:

    I have no faith in anything they now announce. Mandate after mandate wasted. Unfortunately Alba supermajority failed. When an actual means of delivering independence is announced with a date, then I will re-engage. With the exception of Joanna Cherry there is no-one within the current SNP elected co-hort that I would trust to negotiate our independence even if we win an election plebiscite/ referendum on it.

  30. Johnny says:

    I wonder who the 9% (as of this time) are who think that there’s some “Hail Mary” that no-one has thought of yet?

    I guess this gives us some idea of how many believe there’s a secret plan.

  31. Republicofscotland says:

    Definitely Option 2, it, kill a bit of time and gets her party reelected again to run the country, and who would back against her when she’s dangling the indy mandate carrot.

  32. Astonished says:

    stonefree says:
    22 June, 2022 at 1:07 pm
    Wish she would just GTF

    May I echo this and add that she takes her predatory, vile, misogynist cabal with her.

    When she has gone I think indy is really ‘ON’.

  33. Stu says:

    I voted 3.
    Ever the eternal optimist…

  34. David W Ferguson says:


    If my theory of her being totally controlled by the Brits. Then what would the Brits want her to do?

    I’ve genuinely come to the conclusion that it’s worse than this Denise.

    Scotland is a small but useful static aircraft carrier in Uncle Sam’s nuclear arsenal. And Uncle Sam brooks no interference in his plans from any quarter, however minor. Scottish independence is an annoying little gnat (I know, I know) that clouds horizons and creates instability at a most inconvenient time for Uncle Sam. What conceivable reason could anyone who wields actual power in the US have for entertaining the idea of Scottish independence for one nanosecond?

    So all the to-ing and fro-ing of Sturgeon’s clique on mysterious jaunts to the US (including the cult leader herself). What’s it all about? Building support for Scottish independence? Don’t make me laugh. It’s about taking instructions from their overlords, and having it explained to them very clearly that if they don’t do as they’re told there are others who very eagerly will.

    The Scots are a prickly and contrary but decent and fair-minded people. Ten years ago we were outspokenly opposed to Uncle Sam’s hegemonic lunacies, and we had a party that reflected our views. That party has gone, hijacked by arsecrawling slime who would bludgeon their own Granny senseless with a shite-smeared knobkerrie before they would hear a word spoken against Uncle Sam, NATO, Trident, and the “rules-based order”.

    There are reasons for that and they go way beyond Westminster and the Brits.

  35. Graf Midgehunter says:

    It’s 1 and only 1.

    Anything else only presumes that NS has the brains and tactical ability to create and follow through a long-term plan with steps to reach the desired target of independence.

    Reality is that NS panicked before the last Scot. elections because the old mandate patina had worn off and she wasn’t getting anywhere. She needed new fodder for the “faithful Duggers” and threw caution to the wind with promises she had no intention of keeping.

    She hadn’t thought it through and is now lumbered with high expectations from the followers, she has to somehow make them magically disappear and it’s not her fault..!

    Sturgeon bluffs. That’s all she’s been doing for the last seven years.

  36. Anonymoose says:

    I reckon option 1 or option 2 – both give her the default defence of “a big boy did it and ran way”.

    I voted 2, as that gives her a larger range of targets to blame/deflect/spin onto.

    Then she’ll spend the following months/years blaming everyone else but herself – the modus operandi of the current generation of politicians both in Scotland and WM – rather than accepting that she has utterly failed in the duty the electorate charged her with since she became FM, with her yet again refusing to stand aside after a defeat for someone more capable and dedicated to lead the way.

    She has also been lining up the unionist ex-BBC Robertson, that creepy fucker with the dodgy eyebrow as well as Redcoat “I wannabe a superspy” McDonald and Ian “I have no spine” Blackford as potential successors, literally leaving the future propects of SNP party leadership of being any of the previously mentioned crazed unionists or for a true patriotic candidate to rise above the wreckage and purge all of this filth from the SNP.

    The future prospects are bleak with the current management of the SNP and their coterie.

  37. Kevin Kennedy says:

    I went with option 1 but option 2 is equally plausable.

  38. Hackalumpoff says:

    Voted option 2.
    Site responded “You Had Already Voted For This Poll. Poll ID #63”
    WTF! No I did not.

  39. Daisy Walker says:

    You are being unfair on her, at this very moment she is working her cotton socks off to ensure the bill gets passed in Holyrood before summer recess (cause that is fairly urgent now)… Oh, wait, no she’s not, she’s on a jolly in Italy.

    I bet its Option 1, followed closely by Option 5 which is she swans off to new horizons in the UN, (a reward for services rendered) and the SNP have to have a ‘democratic’ leadership contest to burn up 3 months of canvassing time. Before they reward the Booby prize with the role.

    Once elected, the tory party can organise a Boris change of leadership, which will burn up another 3 months.

  40. Christopher Pike says:

    There won’t be a referendum next year or in the near future.

    1. The union is a reserved matter.

    2. Unionists and undecideds would boycott an unofficial referendum – option two of this article would become a reality.

    3. A plebiscite election would not be accepted by the UK Government. It would also require a majority of the vote (not just a majority of seats) for it to have any form of legitimacy.


    If the UK Government did grant a section 30 and a referendum was held this sumer, then I suspect YES would lose. The current Scottish Government has a track record of failure and is preoccupied with identity politics than actually running the country efficiently.

    I could never support an independence campaign led by the SNP/Greens. I vehemently oppose identity politics, I support retaining the nuclear deterrent and I detest all the Gaelic/Scots crap being promoted. Mr Campbell is 100% right on those useless and irrelevant “languages”.

    Only gullible individuals like WGD and the driving instructor with delusions of grandeur (Gordon Ross) actually believe there will be a vote next year.

  41. Wee Chid says:

    Royal funeral, period of mourning, coronation? All possibilities likely to allow her to dodge the bullet again.

  42. 100%Yes says:

    I read somewhere that a change of question from asking if Scotland should be Independent and the answer being Yes or No, to perhaps a bill for a consultative referendum which asks the people of Scotland for a mandate to open independence negotiations with the UK. By doing this it would evade a legal challange by the UK due to being consultative referendum. This would sound to me like the FM is going to use the claim of right in her approach. But if it was up to me, I’d change the question to, Do you want to remain in the UK? and the answers being Yes or No, that would put the cat among the pigeons!

  43. Breeks says:

    It’s also a woman’s prerogative to change her mind.

  44. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    She and her team will faff about achieving nothing.

    Then Ireland will unite and we will be flooded by bowler hatted flat earth bigots and that will be that.

    Then we get to vote.

    The result will be no.

    I then may emigrate.

  45. David W Ferguson says:

    So… what might 4 look like? I think we should have a sub-discussion on that. My prediction:

    Sturgeon stands up and says (you have to imagine the bobbing and the blinking and the hand-waving):

    “Ok listen. Ah sellt the indy shirt lang before Ah even goat tae be leader. Then after the Brexit vote Ah could see that wi the polls aw balanced and a two-thirds tae one-third vote for Remain, a vibrant independence campaign led by Alex wid absolutely waltz it. That’s why he had to be goat rid o. Wi extreme prejudice. An noo it’s 2022, an independence is stane deid. It just is. Yiv nae chance. Bit ye have tae keep votin fir me. Coz itherwise ye’ll get Toaries. An ye dinnae want Toaries dae yiz? So vote fir Queen Mammy. Dinnae be a Toarie…”

  46. robertkknight says:

    Where Kompromat exists, a subject will do whatever the agent holding the negatives/audio recording tells them to.

    We can of course speculate, because it’s fun!

  47. Luigi says:

    Well well well. The chickens are certainly coming home to roost. Thanks to that so clever “vote SNP and no other party” line deployed at the council elections, we now have a large number of unionist controlled councils to contend with. They won’t play ball in an independence referendum – why should they? And contesting the legality of a referendum (thanks to NS and the gold plated section 30 nonsense), it’s easy for them to refuse. What a gift. I ask again – why would a unionist council support a legally contested referendum? All they have to do is shout “it’s not legal!” from the rooftops and do anything and everything to thwart it. And they will – you better believe it.

    It’s like a slow motion car crash underway – a pile up of the vanities.

  48. Jan Cowan says:

    Don’t ask me. I’m with “stone free” – ie had more than enough of the despicable con-merchant.

  49. Luigi says:

    Jason Smoothpiece says:
    22 June, 2022 at 2:32 pm
    She and her team will faff about achieving nothing.

    Then Ireland will unite and we will be flooded by bowler hatted flat earth bigots and that will be that.

    Where would all those “Ulster scots” go? South Ayrshire? They certainly won’t stay in the Republic. Ireland unites while Scotland gets partitioned. Irony of ironies.

  50. solarflare says:

    Option 1 for me. Why else repeat the trick of having the big “mic drop” announcement a day or two before recess? Look like you’ve announced something, pretend it’ll all happen after they come back, by which point no-one other than some political hardcore are really paying attention any more because the announcement was some time back. Hope something comes along in the meantime, by the time everyone’s realised (other than the folk who follow this site and a handful of others) then start it up again as before.

    Given what’s been said so far I can see the plausible reasons for voting option 2 as well, but I’m finding it hard to believe Sturgeon’s going to name the date if technically she’s not had a response to the latest S30 request she hasn’t written yet (why not? ‘cos…reasons…) yadda yadda.

  51. sarah says:

    This is a tough choice. Which one will cause the Scottish people the most distress and prevent any progress to restoring Scotland’s status as a nation state? Obviously, that is the one NS will go for.

    I don’t think Option 3 is available because isn’t the dissolution of Holyrood only possible if you have a two-thirds vote in support? That was the thinking behind Action for Independence and then Alba campaigning for the regional list vote to come to them rather than to the SNP.

    So it is a choice of Option 1 or 2, or 4. Of 1 and 2, number 1 is the most feeble so I’ll vote for that as NS hasn’t the guts of a deceased amoeba.

  52. Arthur Martin says:

    Option 1 for me, after all it’s what she’s been doing for the last 8 years.

  53. robbo says:

    I wanted to vote for “The Four Tops and the same song and crazy uncle at a wedding dance” but it wasn’t there – shame, bet it would win.

  54. David Thomson says:

    She’s probably been speaking to Brian Souter. Mind that arsehole’s “referendum” in 2000.

  55. Robert Graham says:

    Aye as the saying goes “ same shit different day “

    I was going to make a comment about women and road maps but remembered Ruby might be looking in OOPS.

  56. Derek says:

    2, with my pessimistic hat on.

  57. PacMan says:

    You can get your bottom dollar that she’ll go for the option to get to through the 2024 UK General election and if’s she’s lucky, the 2026 Scottish Parliament elections as well.

    The same old, the same old..

  58. Graf Midgehunter says:

    I’m in moderation so I’ll just have to wait for the Rev to finish his Amstel an’ chips on bear patrol… 🙂 🙂

  59. Skip_NC says:

    In option 2, why will the electoral commission not cooperate? They can still cooperate and say they don’t have enough time to test the question.

    I voted for 2 because I am such an optimist that I had Scotland’s World Cup games on my work calendar as soon as the fixtures came out a day or two after the draw. However, 1 is probably enough to keep getting enough votes to win elections. Look how long it took for people to wise up to the Scottish twig of the Labour Party.

  60. Marie Clark says:

    I’m with stonefree @1.07. The sooner they all GTF the better for Scotland.

  61. ScottieDog says:

    Other: she steps down as longest serving FM and hands the poison chalice to Angus Robertson OBE

  62. Garrion says:

    Option no. 2 Bob. Has the advantages of being able to blame others for non advancement, high drama and twists and turns, lots of “news” for the Notional (not a sp) to dangle more carrots, and an intrinsic dynamism that makes herself and the rest of the apparatchiks look like their doing their job. Perfect.

  63. Garrion says:

    Bugger. they’re. sorry.

  64. Alan says:

    John Witherspoon muttering from his grave: “The country is so far past the need for the measure that it’s as rotted as I am!”

  65. Romtun says:

    I’m past caring, I’m soon off to Malaysia for a years work, should net me enough funds which, coupled with present funds, should allow me a comfortable retirement overseas.

    I’d come back in a heartbeat should Scotland gain independence, but, it’s not happening under Turdgeons watch, nor any current nSNP MP who might step up to the plate should the bitch takes off.

  66. twathater says:

    It could either be 1 or 2 I voted 1 because she won’t change a winning formula (for her) and she can still rely on PayPal pauls voters to push the magic beans no SORRY CARROTS

    BTW rev can I have the names of the people who voted 3 cause I have a car for sale thats bodywork looks okay but the arse is hinging oot it

  67. Dorothy Devine says:

    Undoubtedly 1.

  68. Andy Ellis says:

    It’ll be 2 I reckon. She’s backed herself in to a corner so she has to at least give the pretence that she’s doing something.

    Offering a pretenderendum will keep the SNP sheeple docile long enough for her to come up with reasons for her inevitable failure to deliver.

  69. Andy Ellis says:

    It’ll be 2 I reckon. She’s backed herself in to a corner so she has to at least give the pretence that she’s doing something.

    Offering a pretenderendum will keep the SNP loyalists docile long enough for her to come up with reasons for her inevitable failure to deliver.

  70. Garrion says:

    Well Andy Ellis, you win word of the day. Pretenderendum.

    Rhymes with nil carborundum.

  71. stuart mctavish says:

    I went with option 4 in the hope that she might be able to kick Westminster out the £, liberate Assange and confiscate Canada, Australia and New Zealand, etc for, say, complicity in crimes against humanity and the coup in America – rather than being obliged to take option 1 and blame it on lack of enthusiasm in the trenches.. but whatever schedule the roadmap promises it is unlikely to be as disappointing as today’s news that a pair of reasonably high flying Scots in the maritime security industry, who put a family member through several hoops for an UNPAID distance based internship, were apparently obliged to cancel their summer “employment” opportunities after all – presumably because world trade is at a standstill* rather than any particular desire to take the proverbial and reinforce quite how shite it is to be Scottish !

    *Something reasonably unforeseen in 2012-2014 that tends to render delays second time around entirely excusable (assuming always that excuses are accompanied with proposed mitigation measures, in full or in part**)

    **Especially if it results in Ferguson Marine’s big ship experience being put to good use in snapping up a bargain

  72. PhilM says:

    Is “likely” to make a statement…and is just as “likely” not to make a statement…
    News story was published at 14.55 and updated at 14.57 just two minutes later…is that some kind of a record?
    So what was changed?
    1. Removal of ‘her predecessor’ from article.
    2. Removal of all references to ‘Baldy-gate’.
    3. Removal of ‘independence movement’.
    4. Insertion of NICOLA instead of Nicola.


  73. mike cassidy says:

    She’ll fart around until the next GE

    While singing another Four Tops classic

    “I Can’t Help Myself”

  74. Muscleguy says:

    All the continued bleating about Gold Standards mean the veiled threats are politically untenable. They are throttling themselves as they say it.

  75. Mark Boyle says:

    Andy Ellis says:
    22 June, 2022 at 5:56 pm

    It’ll be 2 I reckon. She’s backed herself in to a corner so she has to at least give the pretence that she’s doing something.

    Offering a pretenderendum will keep the SNP loyalists docile long enough for her to come up with reasons for her inevitable failure to deliver.

    “Pretenderendum” is a good one – credit where it’s due, Willie Rennie when he was the leader of the Scottish FlipFlops said it to Sturgeon on 29th May 2019, but it seems he stole it from Douglas Carswell of UKIP back in April 2015, who used it to describe the proposed EU referendum of David Cameron.

    To be fair to Carswell, he was pointing out Cameron had promised one in 2009 and then reneged on it, the excuse being his coalition with … the LibDems!

  76. Andy Ellis says:

    @Garrion 6.05 pm

    Thank you, I’ll be here all week, don’t forget to tip your waitress.

    I can’t claim authorship, I saw it used a few times immediately after the “announcement”. I was going with pretendyrum, but “pretenderendum” is more euphonius. 🙂

  77. Wally Jumblatt says:

    Definitely on-topic, I saw hat both ClydePort and Forth Ports have smelled the money, and have suddenly developed fantastic plans to encourage selection on the upcoming Freeports shortlist.

    Pretty pathetic that neither of them have done anything useful in the past 40 years with their fabulous estuary assets.

    Who are the sluggards on the boards of these ‘property’ companies. Clyde is London-owned and Forth owns Tilbury on the Thames. I suspect they both see their Scottish assets as a burden.

  78. Wally Jumblatt says:

    Option 5 -Sturgeon jailed

  79. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Wally Jumblatt (7.04) –

    Your comment chimes closest with my own feelings.

    If her main incentive in placating genuine independence supporters is to cling onto her job to avoid prosecution, let’s call her bluff – she can win another GE, stay in position, bat away the awkward questions about her ‘husband’, the Alphabetties, the missing £600k etc, but at the same time we do the Mother of All Fundraisers, running for as long as she remains in post, specifically ‘earmarked’ for her prosecution. This place is the obvious hub for such an effort, regardless of what some Yes supporters feel about WOS – no MSM organ would ever dare countenance such a move and no other indy-media characters/sites have anywhere near the reach of this place.

    Bottom line – the independence movement waited a long time for the chance which Nicola Sturgeon then went on to squander. And she did it in plain view, deliberately, with malice aforethought. We can wait a little longer, let her sweat, and make sure she answers for what she’s done. Of course, being married means she and Peter can’t be compelled to give evidence against one another. And being in her current position means she’s protected by some very powerful people. Oh aye, she’s safe for now. But when she leaves or gets hoofed? it’s game on, and it ends with her in jail. It’s called ‘justice’.

  80. Tinto Chiel says:

    Probably a mere Rizla between the first two, but remember there was talk of a Devomax Option to complicate and divide the vote floated by some SNP bigwigs a while ago and then swiftly denied: just kite-flying perhaps but remember “Perfidy thy name is Sturgeon” as Old Shaky almost said.

  81. Bob Mack says:

    It’s not the hope that kills you. It’s the lack of it.

  82. Leslie Ross says:

    Option 4a – Sturgeon resigns immediately as FM, the SNP/Greens use their majority to prevent the election of a successor for 28 days and another election is forced under the Scotland Act.

    I also believe in unicorns:)

  83. Robert Louis says:

    I genuinely want to see sturgeon at last standing up to the craven murderous liars in London, and simply stating we are holding a referendum. Sadly, however, I think it will be more pathetic posturing, stating she has a mandate, and that ‘boris cannot refuse’ (HINT: he can and will), and that she is still seeking approval from England etc..

    Until such time as the SNP and Sturgeon grasp the harsh reality that Westminster will continue ignoring her, until she literally forces the issue, nothing will happen. The Scottish government need to simply assert that their will be a referendum. They need to stop acting like underlings, seeking ‘approval’ from their English masters.

    The whole world expects a referendum, it is THEY the Scottish government should focus on, not a bunch of craven corrupt thuggish Tory liars in England.

    A further point, ALL referndums in the UK, are ADVISORY. All of them. The brexit referendum was ADVISORY. So could folk in the independence movement and, especially the SNP stop talking about an advisory referendum on independence. It is an independence referendum, no ifs, no buts. It is that simple.

    Sometimes when I hear folk from the SNP speaking, I think they themselves believe the unionist pish.

    Call the referendum, Nicola. Tell London it is happening. Keep it simple. And for goodenss sake, get off your knees, and stop begging for ‘permission’ from a lying murderous, racist English government, FFS.

  84. Robert Louis says:

    Just a point, the term ‘pretenderendum’ was coined by unionists, and is used by them. Let’s not do THEIR work, eh?

  85. Dan says:

    @ Tinto Chiel

    Talking of floating ideas…
    Here’s a retro look back to October 2014 and Hosie suggesting the formation of a YES Alliance!
    No doubt another topic for him to elucidate on how that plan is progressing this Saturday at the AUOB event…

    Dr Ew commenting btl on the premise of that article was fairly prescient with this.

    This is consolidating the principle that independence is about more than one party. Support will stall if the idea becomes dominated by a single monolithic party machine. Do you recall what we were all saying at the doorsteps, on the stalls, in the meetings, the mantra we all repeated throughout the Yes campaign? “This is not a vote for the SNP, this is not a vote for Alex Salmond.” Remember that, because there is a saturation point for support for any one party. Ultimately, independence is best served by a diverse and broad based support – that’s what Hosie and the others have learned from 2014.

  86. robertkknight says:

    @Robert Louis

    “Let’s not do THEIR work, eh?”

    Sorry, but THEY’VE been unemployed for 7 years! Sturgeon and her cabal have been doing more to maintain the Union than any Yoon I know.

    If she was genuine, post the Brexit vote we’d have been out the UK and back in the EU quicker than shit through a goose.

    As it is…

  87. Saffron Robe says:

    Sturgeon is a national embarrassment. I don’t know about the Scottish cringe but I cringe every time I see her. David Ben-Gurion said that “a Jew who does not believe in miracles is not a realist”, and whilst that is true, I would say that a Scot who believes Sturgeon can perform miracles and pull independence out of nothing is most definitely not a realist. The SNP should rebrand itself under Sturgeon as the Scottish Fantasist Party! One thing is certain, independence won’t come about by magical thinking.

    As to what she will do next Tuesday, I think she will do what she has always done – waffle! And since you mention waffling in Option 1, Stuart, then I chose that, especially as the “The Grand Old Duke of York” sums up Sturgeon’s tenure remarkably well. Option 2 is attractive, but I don’t think she has the temerity to carry out a phony war when everyone knows she can only fire blanks!

  88. PacMan says:

    Robert Louis says: 22 June, 2022 at 8:19 pm

    Just a point, the term ‘pretenderendum’ was coined by unionists, and is used by them. Let’s not do THEIR work, eh?

    If we could reset everything that has gone on between the first referendum and now, nothing has changed.

    There has been no attempt to meaningfully further the independence argument between 2014 and now. It means we are still arguing the same arguments that lost the last referendum. This can be seen with the trolls on here going over the same nonsense over and over again.

    We could have a referendum next week and we will still lose simply because we will get bogged down in the same arguments as last time and have nothing original or positive to offer.

    Maybe you can give us a reason why we shouldn’t be so pessimistic and not pull all our weight behind Nicola Sturgeon?

  89. titanium says:

    we should be able to have some fun amidst the current gloom of butter at a tenner a kilo, and I wanted to vote 3, maybe just for the joy of holding a wee delusion in mind for a few seconds. Then I read the tweet by the Minister who couldn’t walk 200 metres for a meeting with an overseer. We need leaders who would either batter in there at 100 mph determined to reflect the will and protect the livelihoods of the electorate or the guile of one who’d casually stroll forwards content with the knowledge he’d the political acumen to walk back out with something worth having. Instead we’ve posturing performative art posing as a politician. Enough! Folk are hungry, on waiting lists for doctors and ops, skint and worrying about bills and the cost of the messages and we’re saddled with a constitutional expert who can’t take a 2 minute walk for the sake of his country.

  90. Effigy says:

    Statement from NHS Workers Say NO
    As workers in the health and care sector we offer unconditional
    solidarity to railway workers taking strike action. We support our
    fellow workers in the MT union and hope they secure the pay rise
    they deserve.
    We are appalled at the cynical language used by government
    ministers who are trying to turn the public against the railway
    workers by suggesting that strike action will harm NHS patients.
    The real harm to patients comes from the government’s refusal to
    properly fund and staff the NHS, which currently has tens of
    thousands of unfilled posts.
    As more workers take collective action in the face of the cost of
    living crisis we will inevitably be demonised by the government and
    the rightwing press who will attempt to guilt and cajole us into
    abandoning our campaigns for decent pay.
    Don’t let them divide us – victory to the railway workers!
    Thank you!

  91. Tinto Chiel says:

    @Dan 8.35: hmmmmm *strokes chin* .

    Hosie I have always found both oily and self-serving. I’m presuming, like me, that you would regard his “turbo-charging” as merely a feeble blowing of tepid air into the engine to produce feeble Morris Minor levels of thrust (ooh, matron!) to an independence campaign.

    The multiplied organisms all over the place btl caused by his proposals In Them Days are either sad or quite nostalgic, depending on your present levels of rage.

    *Bites carpet savagely*

  92. Effigy says:

    Growing to love this elected Railway Union official but he’ll never make it.
    He tells the truth, he uses simple undeniable facts, he attacks the corrupt,
    and shows the utter absurdity of U.K. media puppets like Pierce Morgan- Are you a Hood?
    Richard Meadley- Are you a Marxist?

    Are these viable descriptions of someone battling for his members jobs, terms a pay rises in the face of pending 11% inflation, doubling energy costs and 5 mortgage rises in 7 months.

    I’m waiting to see someone who isn’t a multi millionaire and hurting with the fight of just surviving interviewing him.

    We may be using hover boards before them.

  93. cyril mitchell says:

    Or hopes a funeral/coronation will derail her plans

  94. ScottieDog says:

    This interview with Jeremy Corbyn is a timely reminder of what the YES movement is up against..

  95. David Hannah says:

    Sturgeon and the Tartan Tory Party are finshed. She should be resigning on Tuesday. She’s a disgrace to Scotland.

  96. David Hannah says:

    Hopefully she takes a job at the United Nations gender council and leaves Scotland forever.

    I voted phoney war. If she chooses phoney war then you know she’s a sociopath. Quite comfortable to lie to their core voter base. The Scottish Government are corrupt to the core.

  97. Antoine Bisset says:

    None of these options are worth a light. It’s an idiot choice, hanged or shot? They are all fantasy. If we wish to be independent we have to do it. Really do it. Not spend time haggling over real, or imaginary referenda, plebiscites, or how many angels dance on the head of a pin.
    Just get up one morning and secede. Nothing else will work. We know this because it hasn’t, has it?

  98. Xaracen says:

    Robert says: “ALL referendums in the UK are ADVISORY.”

    This is because Westminster claims unlimited sovereignty and refuses to be bound to any outcome of anything at all. It insists on always having the last word. THAT is why THEIR referendums are always advisory. It is not an inherent requirement of referendums to be advisory.

  99. Zimba says:

    It has to be ‘none of the above’. . .

    I say this not from being fool enough to imagine there might a secret plan B, but because, regardless of what power any of the political classes in Europe and America think they might still have, actually no: it’s over. As from this winter, after the whole decades-long panoply of chickens coming home to roost (of which Russia turning off the taps will be only one) Europe looks set discover it is roundly f*cked. And – newsflash – by the end of this decade there will be no more U.S. Empire. Though let’s hope there’s still a planet.

    Meanwhile, if we were a normal country having a normal debate about what might normally have been in our best interests based on what would have been normal in that world which (courtesy of all events between March 2020 and February 2022) is no more, then the debate about which would be best for Scotland – membership of the E.U. or membership of E.F.T.A. – would have been the talk of the toun, in all the newspapers and all over the news channels – and E.F.T.A. would have prevailed. But we are not in that world. I say (and kind of seriously), we might be better advised to be setting our sights on membership of B.R.I.C.S.

    So – option 4 …though, um, only after the most likely option (a kind of failure to ‘make one’s mind up’ between 1 and 2) is rendered utterly irrelevant by events.

    But I’m probably going to be proved wrong.

    By events.

  100. Derek says:

    ” Morris Minor levels of thrust ”

    Funnily enough, I saw a pickup version today.

    Still slower than a slow thing on a slow day in Slowsville, though…

  101. Ayeright says:

    Who here will be getting right behind an Independence referendum next year?

  102. Lynne says:

    Went for 4 – no Hail Mary, but thinking in terms of: gets S30 refused, but runs ‘purely consultative’ referendum to ‘test opinion’. That would enable her both to claim she’d kept her promise & to kick the can down the road to 2024.

  103. Kangaroo says:

    Whilst we need to keep our eye on the ball as far as indyref2 is concerned, we need to be looking at the ongoing situation in the USA. 2020 Election will be decertified because of massive voter fraud, watch 2000mules @ unfortunately you now have to pay, earlier it was free. A mule is the slang name for someone who moved drugs for the bosses, in this case it was ballot papers across multiple counties in multiple States. They got caught, all was recorded and evidence presented. We are just awaiting decertification, then the SHTF.

    If you dont think the 2014indyref was stolen then you need to take a closer look. Same tactics, pretend the silent majority would stay at home then opt for a postsl vote. Rigged.

    I am being told that Arkansas, Texas and Wisconsin have decertified in the last week, but I await confirmation.

  104. Dorothy Devine says:

    Liked this – hope it works!

  105. Mark Boyle says:

    Robert Louis says:
    22 June, 2022 at 8:19 pm

    Just a point, the term ‘pretenderendum’ was coined by unionists, and is used by them. Let’s not do THEIR work, eh?

    They tend to refer to a second Scottish Independence referendum as the “neverendum”, since one has already taken place before.

    A “Pretenderendum” denotes cynicism of any genuine desire of its promoters that any such referendum should take place and it’s more about suckering the more naive parts of the electorate.

  106. Mark Boyle says:

    ScottieDog says:
    22 June, 2022 at 10:17 pm

    This interview with Jeremy Corbyn is a timely reminder of what the YES movement is up against..

    What? The establishment campaign that saw him fall less that 2000 votes spread across ten constituencies?

    Corbyn’s claims read rather like those far right stories about how the establishment were going to fiddle the Brexit vote so Leave could never win … whoops!

    Bit much him attacking the Guardian only the moment they attacked him non-stop after coming within a whisker of booting out Tinfoil Theresa. So their role as Blair’s biggest cheerleaders was something that just escaped his notice?

    The Guardian has always been the paper of the intellectual snob, suburban liberal fascists and other such types who like to think they’re “nice” but really are just “I’m better than you” wankers, who want only the sort of socialism where they personally don’t have to pay more for any of it.

  107. Chas says:

    I do not see any option regarding the rescinding of 300 year old treaties? Sovereignty, Colonialism etc. You know, the stuff that the usual suspects have been droning about every day for the last umpteen months and boring the rest of us to death. Or can this be included as option 4?

    Sturgeon will do what she thinks is best for her first, her party second, with Scotland way down the list. I will be astonished if a referendum is held in 2023. Unless of course, she has another well paid job already in the pipeline when it fails.

  108. Breeks says:

    So what is the critical path for all this 2023 Referendum narrative being unarguably outside the realm of possibility?

    Yes, I know, we’re “probably” beyond the timeframe for a Section 30 process, Electoral Commission approved question and legal / Constitutional dispute having time to run it’s course, but what are absolute cast iron benchmarks to this happening?

    Arguably, and not withstanding three quarters of it is all bullshit, “All” the legal / Constitutional validity etc could be done retrospectively, with a “Wildcat” referendum going ahead and leaving Westminster to challenge it’s process, result, and legitimacy.

    So, suppose the SNP said, “You know what? Fk it. We’ll trust the Constitutional Sovereignty aspect, go ahead with what Unionists will condemn as a Wildcat Referendum, adopt a Constitutional franchise recognised under International Law, and then defy Westminster to overturn the result”. Now irrespective of winning or losing such a referendum, what is bare bones critical time scale, deadline, and sequential path of events necessary for that to happen?

    If all we can expect to achieve from this latest con is more delay, how can we at least salvage something out of it, such as a line in the sand which marks the end of the road for this Betrayer in Chief?

  109. Josef Ó Luain says:

    It’s the phony war option, if only because Sturgeon loves the sound of her own voice!

  110. Andy Ellis says:

    @Breeks 10.02 am

    1) “Arguably, and not withstanding three quarters of it is all bullshit, “All” the legal / Constitutional validity etc could be done retrospectively, with a “Wildcat” referendum going ahead and leaving Westminster to challenge it’s process, result, and legitimacy.”

    It’s arguable, yes…but where would it leave us? Like the Turkish Republic of North Cyprus, Transnistria and South Ossetia perhaps? A pretenderendum – in the unlikely event the SNP push the nuclear button and call a “wildcat” vote they’ve always rubbished – simply risks being ignored. The international community won’t accept the result of such a vote as valid.

    2) “We’ll trust the Constitutional Sovereignty aspect, go ahead with what Unionists will condemn as a Wildcat Referendum, adopt a Constitutional franchise recognised under International Law, and then defy Westminster to overturn the result”.

    Define this “Constitutional Sovereignty” aspect you trust in, and explain how it leads to international recognition. What Constitutional franchise is it you think is recognised under International Law, what timescale do you see this happening in?

    It seems the proponents of “cunning plans for indy” are no closer to answering the basic questions folk have asked them about novel routes to independence that don’t rest either on winning a binary referendum or a majority in plebiscitary elections. UDI or non-negotiated self determination is only going to be accepted as valid by the international community in defined circumstances: freedom from colonial oppression or the use of violence / overt oppression to prevent the exercise of the right of self determination. Neither applies in our case, however hard the fans of the “Scotland as colony” narrative try to flog their snake oil.

    Let’s say “we” as a movement want lines in the sand drawn about whether Holyrood or “the sovereign Scottish people” (however you demonstrate their will) have the right to hold referendums whenever and however often we want. We still need to demonstrate that the repatriation of powers, and the primacy of the Settled Will of the Scottish people and its popular sovereignty over the asserted primacy of Westminster, has been clearly accepted by a majority of the Scottish people.

    If you’re not doing it via a referendum or plebiscitary elections, how are you demonstrating it to the world and ensuring they recognise it, and don’t just shrug their shoulders because they see it as illegitimate?

  111. Breeks says:

    Dorothy Devine says:
    23 June, 2022 at 7:42 am

    Liked this – hope it works!

    I have a slight confession that I don’t “like” Trade Unions, though I’m not right wing either. I think it’s a childhood conditioning, because I was a tenant farmer’s son, and striking doesn’t really resonate amongst farmers.

    For a start, you can’t strike because your animals go hungry, and when you might go for days without seeing anybody but the postman, exactly who’s is even meant to notice you’re on strike? It’s hard enough for a lot of farmers to get a day off or a holiday at the best of times. Striking just doesn’t “compute”. It’s not a judgement, it’s just your day to day life simply runs to a different formula.

    When people see French farmers protesting, it’s a lot more militant than a strike because it kinda has to be. People think they’re all mad, but oddly enough, I kinda get it.

    I’m quite sure if my background was a mining community, ship building community, or really any industrial community, my attitude towards Trade Unions would be utterly different. It just is what it is.

    Don’t misunderstand me, I’m NOT anti Trade Union, I wouldn’t cross a picket line, and I do understand how vital Trades Unions are in industrial disputes. But the conditioning is deep.

    Remember the Carry On films with their Shop Stewards forever calling strikes at the drop of a hat? One out, all out kinda stuff? That was never remotely funny for me, not funny by a mile, and it actually made my toes curl.

    The First Union Leader to ever break through my own prejudices was Jimmy Reid, and he did masses to alter my attitude and disposition towards trades Unions in general. It was still “alien” to me, but you could begin to “get it”.

    The weird thing about Mick Lynch is that his straight talking demolition of the UK media is an absolute delight to watch. He’s not trying to belittle them, they’re making fools of themselves.

    It’s so utterly refreshing to see someone on TV with genuine integrity, and that resonates with a lot of people like me who are maybe not natural Trades Union people. Go for it Mick Lynch!

  112. Chris Darroch says:

    If Nicola were ever forced to declare or even, hold, an indyref…..she would be the first to try and discuss methods to encourage a losing vote.

    By “fair” means……or foul.

  113. Breeks says:

    The only great announcement Sturgeon has left in her is the one where she stands down.

  114. Chris Darroch says:

    With the original SNP under Alex Salmond…..There was a leader and a movement which contained conviction politicians.

    But that is a rare circumstance and most conviction politicians of whatever degree of initial conviction, will soon come to the stark realisation that is a very difficult path to maintain when you get power.

    How many of us, looking at a four year tenure at £60-£70K plus all the numerous perks…..would fail to observe, that you might just not get in again, unless you have support….backing etc?

    And that backing might involve towing a line, or presenting well to media interests or bowing to corporate lobbyists and so on.

    The original SNP had a very strong conviction politician as leader, in Alex Salmond and he might have been able to maintain the morale of those who might have been wavering……but Nicola is not that……

    Your window of opportunity for significant political change that might actually benefit the population and their descendants is quite short imo……..and I am not sure we can expect a conviction politician of Salmond’s quality, nor that wide eyed party positivity for change to occur often…..

    Once you feel the trappings of power……you don’t like to risk losing them.

    And what? Go back to looking for shelf stacking jobs or junior management at Lidl? Back to being an oik…..instead of having all that access, deference and opportunity in office?

  115. Breeks says:

    I feel queasy because Scotland is falling for the same thing time and time again.

    There is a false bottom to the argument whether Holyrood can hold a referendum, because you can pick the answer to suit your own perspective.

    Can Holyrood hold it’s own referendum?

    Probably no, IF Holyrood sees it’s powers solely codified by the 1998 Scotland Act, which to many Scots is brazenly unconstitutional.

    Almost certainly yes, IF Holyrood presents itself as elected representation of a constitutionally Sovereign people, and thus outranks and trumps anything written in the subordinate 1998 Scotland Act.

    So until you decide what Holyrood actually is, defined by binary Constitution, then how do you possibly decide which court case to fight over the “legality” of a referendum?

    I don’t know. By MSP’s agreeing to it’s oath, perhaps 1998 Scotland Act MIGHT restrict the powers of a Devolved Assembly, but that only determines the right of the Assembly.

    The constitution of a parliamentary assembly is NOT the constitution of sovereign Nation, so a legal test case about Holyrood’s power seems an academic curiosity beside Scotland’s Constitutional right as a Sovereign Nation to hold a Scottish Referendum whenever the people like.

    To be blunt, Westminster having the power to subjugate Holyrood does not equate to Westminster having the power to subjugate Scotland’s sovereign people.

    Thus a court cast about Holyrood’s constitutional potency does not directly further the Independence cause at all. It merely defines the relevance (or not) of Holyrood.

    End the constitutional ambiguity by compelling Holyrood to declare it’s allegiance to the red sovereignty of Scotland’s people, or to the white sovereignty of Westminster. That simply requires a statement from Holyrood, not a lawyers adjudication, (and especially not superfluous interference from a UK Supreme Court, which itself suffers from the very same constitutional ambiguity as Holyrood).

  116. James Che. says:

    The new human right bill by Westminster with Dominic Raabid only gives human rights in the main to public authorities,

    The bigger issue is one that the Snp and Scottish government are deliberately ignoring. The old English parliament was sovereign but the British parliament cannot be, do to Scots Law and Sovereignty issues,

    The new bill of human rights making the Supreme Court in England/ britain supreme over Scots Law breaks the treaty of the union once more.

  117. Merganser says:

    Assuming that Nicola doesn’t really want any sort of referendum to happen, pretendy or otherwise, she must be a party to information which indicates that something will happen to prevent a referendum taking place. So she can announce one safe in the knowledge that it isn’t going to happen.

    She can boast that she kept her promise, but events beyond her control have now intervened.

    The only thing which could do this would be Boris or his successor announcing a general election to take place before the date of the referendum. She campaigns again as the party of independence and is in power for another 5 years thinking of new ways how not to achieve it.

    Limitless gravy for the SNP I think. Working closely with Westminster.

  118. Anne Johnston says:

    Something big will be coming to save her day!

  119. James Che. says:

    I cannot see the Scottish devolved english based law government and the parties within that construction ever allowing Scots and Scotland to become independent while they attempt to entangle, then destroy by the over ruling the articles of the treaty of union and abolishing Scots Law that is wrote into the treaty of the union

    If anyone thinks the articles of that treaty is being adhered by Westminster must be in La laa land.

    The treaty articles do not permit to judge Scot Laws, NOR do they mention a supreme court that would in future decide on Scots Laws.

    The treaty is either real and has meaning to be legally followed.
    When the case for it being abused and ignoring Scots Law by Westminster and the British Parliament over human rights of Scottish people living under different Laws that were to be retained within that treaty is so Obvious, that the could see it.
    By allowing it to be abused and slowly deconstructed,

    On the other hand when westminster abolished Scots Law within one year of signing the treaty of the union under the new british Treason Laws they introduced in 1708 they immediately abolished Scots Law that was to be retained the treaty,
    The house of Lords at the time protested saying it breaks the treaty of the union articles.

    Joanna Cherry, NC nor snp, being in the legal professions never mention the times the treaty have been broken.
    There is no doubt that those in the Scottish Government differ very little from the original parcel of rogues.
    And it becomes more and more obvious to the slowest of Scots, that the route to independence is not through the devolved government.

  120. James Che. says:

    What reason could prevent NS holding a referendum.

    Monkey pox?
    Polio in the water found in london.
    A war.
    Financial crash.
    An election being last i think.

  121. Chris Darroch says:

    So many folk saying that it cannot be Option 1 because Nicola wouldn’t or couldn’t get away with it….!!!

    Folk with rather short memories imo…….She has done THE most gallus things with our legal system; with party democracy and women’s rights to name but three.

    And have some failed to notice that there is practically no other choice for most voters? Or that Nicola can maintain the backing of many that would never vote SNP otherwise, because they recognise that she isn’t into indyref?

  122. Alf Baird says:

    Phony is as phony does. I expect that means option 2.

  123. Geri says:

    Option 1. Sturgeon lacks a spine & strategy (with countless open misses to prove both).
    She’s not suddenly going to find either of them now.
    Her moment has passed. She shat it.

  124. McDuff says:

    A perfect suming up of the options rev.

  125. Ottomanboi says:

    «If you’re not doing it via a referendum or plebiscitary elections, how are you demonstrating it to the world and ensuring they recognise it, and don’t just shrug their shoulders because they see it as illegitimate?»
    Sorry to crash your illusions, but actually «the world» couldn’t care less….it’s every nation, ethnicity, minority for itself.

  126. Andy Ellis says:

    @Ottomanboi 3.48 pm

    I’m under no illusions. I want an independent Scotland that is recognised and accepted as a full part of the international community, not the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus without the sun. Nobody recognised Catalonia’s 2017 referendum result, many countries still don’t recognise Kosovo.

    There will be no hope of EU membership – which is still most likely to be what the majority of Scots will vote for post indy whatever opponents of the EU think – if existing EU states like Spain, Cyprus, Slovakia, Romania wont recognise Kosovo, they won’t recognise Scotland or allow entry if it’s seen to be a case of UDI or what they regard as an illegitimate “Catalan style” process.

  127. Brian Fleming says:

    I expect her to find some new way to fudge it. She’s had long enough.

  128. twathater says:

    @ Brian Fleming 4.33pm , can I ask are you the same Brian that has been on twatter and the Internet rabidly defending sturgeon and the woke snp whilst decrying and demeaning anyone who points out that the betrayer has done hee haw to further independence and also derides and demonises ALBA and any of its members who dare criticise niclas lies

    I also note a return of ayeright from PayPal Paul’s refugee camp innocently hahaha unobtrusively asking how many people will be supporting an indy ref next year, totally unaware of the results of the revs poll where the highest results SHOW how much faith or belief that ANYTHING sturgeon does is going to result in independence , you’ll need to go back to PayPal pauls site to immerse yourself in the Nicla Aura ayewrang people here have no illusions about sturgeon

  129. James Che. says:

    Scotland V Catalonia.

    You always avoid mentioning the treaty of union and its articles.
    You really do wish to turn a blind eye any the facts when you’re attempts are made to try like against like with misleading info.

    Scotland is not legally like Catalonia.
    In Which you are well aware of.
    For you claim to be fighting for Scotlands independence seems to be a false narrative if you do not youre ass from you elbow.


    If the “old” treaty should be ignored as rubbish, as you have said many times.
    And in the past.
    Is not relevant today.
    It does not matter. Etc etc.

    Why do you need to fight for independence , what exactly are you here for apparently, if we do not have a treaty that binds us to Britain.
    There would be no reason for you to be on this site at all.

    If however you accept we do have a treaty that is meaningful.
    Then you will be able to see that Catalonia did not have the same treaty with Spain.
    That Catalonia did not have a “claim of right” wrote into any such treaty for themselves as the Scots do.

    You will need to pick one of you’re world views regarding Scotlands legal Status it can not be both.

  130. Republicofscotland says:

    “I have a slight confession that I don’t “like” Trade Unions”

    WTF Breeks, most of the rights workers have now are down to organised unions fighting tooth and nail for them, you are basking in the luxury that your ancestors demonstrated for and even shed blood for.

    Never forget unions are the only way we can hold businesses to account.

    If big business gets its way we’ll all be on Zero-Hours contracts.

  131. Robert Hughes says:

    ” Sorry to crash your illusions, but actually «the world» couldn’t care less….it’s every nation, ethnicity, minority for itself. ”

    Once again – Nail on head time Otto .

    ” Boxes , little boxes …..
    There’s a green one and a pink one
    And a blue one and a yellow one
    And they’re all made out of ticky-tacky
    And they all look just the same ”

    And some here think we need to tick every fckn one of them before we can reclaim our Independence .

    NAW , we don’t .

    International Recognition ? Another box-shaped abstraction .

    “Between the idea
    And the reality
    Between the motion
    And the act
    Falls the Shadow” .

    Fck the Shadow . Just act

  132. Republicofscotland says:

    I nearly choked on a biccy with my tea today, when I heard Sturgeon at FMQs cite Alex Salmond’s fit up as the Scottish government acting on sexual harassment claims in a proper manner.

    This was brought up in the chamber with regards to SNP MP sex pest Patrick Grady not being giving his marching orders by Blackford.

  133. Dave Hansell says:

    At the risk of being unpopular, Sturgeon will do nothing of any practical or effective significance simply because she cannot.

    One of her key get outs is the economy, which – like the economies of the Rest of the UK, Europe and the US – is about to tank in spectacular fashion as a result of the largest self inflicted wound since the Delphic Oracle advised Croesus that a great empire would fall if he invaded Persia.

    And the scary bit is there’s sod all to be done because nothing, literally nothing, works as a consequence of the exceptionalism which is a permanent feature in this minority part of the global population and the fact that every decision is based on the subjective reality in individual heads rather than objective reality.

    The bottom line conclusion of most, if not all, of the many specific and general salient observations made by Wings (among others) over many years is simply that nothing works in the Woke/liberal West as a result of experience, expertise, knowledge, nous and gumption having been managed out of every corner of the entire system over the past half century.

    Everywhere you turn in everyday experience is blighted with clueless numpties and Rupert’s in every single decision making role you encounter who are unreachable with rational argument. At every sodding level.

    The West of which we find ourselves a part is incapable of internally generated recovery from the dire situation it finds itself in simply because the calibre and quality of everything and everyone allowed any degree of clout whatsoever within its hierarchical pyramid is so mind explodingly dire.

    Sturgeon is merely one among many who has more chance of standing on a beach and turning back a giant tsunami then being able to deal with the shit storm the majority of us have been dragged into.

    The only problem with this poll, therefore, is that it does not have a heads on pike by the end of 2023 option.

  134. Republicofscotland says:

    The poor guy that sex pest Patrick Grady touched up is according to the news the same guy Patricia Gibson also an SNP MP touched up she too looks to have gotten away with it.

    Do what these two sleazy SNP MPs have done on the street and unlike them, you’ll find yourself in court.

  135. Republicofscotland says:

    Sturgeon on radio news today saying that there’s a way to hold ministers to account (Scotland) when they act dishonourably, however Sturgeon claims ministers disgraceful actions/ behaviour cannot be revealed retrospectively.

    How convenient that the retrospective aspect doesn’t apply.

  136. James Che. says:

    By the way Stu meant to say that i do not think any of the above choices, are reevant any more to the Scottish people.
    No offence meant,
    I just been out most of the day and got back to read the rubbish about Scotland /Catalonia where someone cannot make up their mind wether we need to fight for Scottish independence because we are not in any treaty that says we are not already independent.

    Then again he thinks we might be in a treaty because he is fighting for something.

  137. Andy Ellis says:

    @Dave Hansell 6.09 pm

    Just a variant of “It’s the economy, stupid”.

    Project Fear was able to weaponise economic uncertainty in 2012-14, but I’m not sure yoons will be able to do the same for indyref2 or plebiscitary elections should either happen in the short to medium term. Brexit holed the presumption of British nationalist economic stability and EU membership versus Scottish nationalist economic uncertainty and being outside the EU below the water line.

    Of course the oncoming economic downturn may persuade some that we’re still Better Together, and that now’s not the time for change but for all you or anyone else knows it could also persuade many that the cost benefit analysis of the potential downsides or upsides of independence have changed.

    It takes a brave person to stand up with a straight face these days and argue that the unionist vision of Global Britain, or worse Empire Mk. 02, is an example anyone should follow, or that it is patently less risky and more stable than a Scotland free to set it’s own priorities and potentially re-join the EEA if not EU.

  138. Republicofscotland says:

    SNP MP Stewart Hosie, say.

    “But he said he felt “confident” the Scottish Government has a plan B and insisted there is a “different route” if the Prime Minister decides “not to be a democrat”.”

    Plan B FFS we’ve been telling this self serving mob for years that Plan B’s exist, mind you Hosie is “confident” take from that what you will.

  139. Republicofscotland says:

    I wonder if Mick Lynch would mind, if we asked him to come to Scotland and be our new FM, its great to see working class guys like him slap down the head in the clouds chinless wonders who know f*ck all about running a country or dealing with ordinary folk.

    I say get shot of all the OxBridge useless b*stards and replace them with real world people, more power to you Mick.

  140. Andy Ellis says:

    @James Che 6.01 pm

    I’ll try valiantly to make some sense of your train of thought word salad.

    I haven’t said, nor do I believe that Scotland and Catalonia are in exactly the same situation. Unlike you, I don’t feel the need to obsessionally post about the Treaties of Union, simply on the basis that I don’t believe they will be in any way decisive in gaining independence. Your amateur hour analysis of the treaties, their history and whether and to what extent they are relevant is unconvincing and you have no academic or peer reviewed research or evidence to back up any of your rather confused analysis and assertion.

    I’m campaigning for independence James. I don’t think it will come about by novel means or cunning plans which don’t involve either a referendum or plebiscitary elections. The international community doesn’t care about the minutiae of Scottish history, or Catalan history or Quebecois history.

    All three places have some things in common, and some things which differentiate them one from another. All three will however be held to the same standards when it comes to decision time on whether the 192 states in the UN recognise their self determination in the future if any of them claim their independence.

    The fact Catalonia doesn’t have the equivalent to the Scottish claim of right is irrelevant. Catalans like all other peoples, have a right to self determination. If you’re asserting that the Catalans are somehow less entitled to self determination than Scots due to 300 year old treaties and claims of right, you’re bolstering the cause of unionists everywhere.

    Regressive unionists in Spain assert that places like Catalonia need “permission” for self determination, and can only exercise it if the whole of Spain votes in favour, because *constiutional prohibition*. A similar argument was made by some yoons here before indyref1 to the effect that the whole of the UK should get to decide if we were “allowed” to leave the union.

    If Scotland didn’t have a claim of right, or Treaties of Union, it would still be entitled to self determination. If we’d won independence in 2014, it would have succeeded not because of the Claim of Right, or Treaties of Union, or the Declaration of Arbroath but because we’d won it in accordance with principles the other members of the UN accepted as valid.

    None of those reasons are rocket science, none of them hinge on what happened 300 years ago.

    I don’t have two world views James. If you’re asserting I do, you’re either missing the point entirely or being purposefully disingenuous. I honestly don’t care which. Your endless ill thought out, badly argued and barely comprehensible contributions banging on ad nauseam about the Treaties of Union aren’t convincing anyone but a small claque of the similarly misguided. Nobody else takes you or your output remotely seriously.

  141. robbo says:

    Did anyone see Ponsonby interview ?

    with –

    “Ian -the fact of the matter is, at the end of the day, we need to reflect- Blackford”

    Quite shocking this blabbering fool is our supposed leader rep of SNP MP’s in Westmonster. No wonder they laugh at them down there.

  142. Dorothy Devine says:

    Breeks , you haven’t watched it have you? It’s really very funny but true (nearly!) to the actual interviews.

  143. Breeks says:

    Republicofscotland says:
    23 June, 2022 at 6:02 pm

    “I have a slight confession that I don’t “like” Trade Unions”

    WTF Breeks, most of the rights workers have now are down to organised unions fighting tooth and nail for them…

    Yeah, I know that. 100%. But when I was a farmer boy from the country, workers rights were what “townies” got up to. It was just a totally different culture.

    But it’s just the same today. The last thing the BritNat media wanted to promote were workers rights, so a lot of the time, strikers were portrayed as trouble makers, and when you’re not in the loop to hear differently, you’d only ever get the one sided story.

    It’s exactly the same with Independence 50 years later. The Brits don’t want a well informed electorate, they want an electorate blinkered, ill-informed, and dutifully trusting the “benevolent” state’s version of events.

    But don’t knock it. It’s partly growing up like that, that I’m now so deeply and incurably cynical of the media and politicians, and the games they play behind the headlines.

    But there is still that reflex reaction to Trades Unions – which comes from the conditioning I’m sure. It’s a seed the manipulative bastards tried to plant in your head, … just like Unionism in some people, or religion, or the “right” fitba team.

    There was a whole lot of conditioning going on, like being made to speak “properly”. Believe it or not, as naturally left handed, I was re-educated to be right handed. They tried anyway. I’m right handed with a knife a fork, but remain left handed with a spoon because I was a stubborn wee shite.

    It’s a similar conditioning that needs to be broken in Scotland’s Unionists, because left to their instincts, Unionists they will remain.

  144. Republicofscotland says:

    An unelected clergyman in the undemocratic House of Lords wants the whole Four Nations that makes up the UK to have a vote in next years indyref if there is one.

    I’ mean how out of touch with reality are these clown who get £300 quid a day just for showing up and fill their faces with good food subsidised by the taxpayer.

    Of course Agent Ellis will be getting a boner at the thought of this actually happening.

  145. Republicofscotland says:

    Fair enough Breeks, unions don’t just drive wages up they drive up working conditions as well, they bring the rule of law to the work place and help stop employers from unfairly sacking folk for no good reason. They also stop management from treating workers like shite.

    Thatcher adopted the Chicago Boys and Milton Friedman’s economic model, and in the process she tried to break the unions, what she did to the miners was appalling, yet people really do have short memories, with ex-mining towns voting for the Tories at the last GE breaking the Red Wall in the process.

  146. Andy Ellis says:

    @Vlad’s ding-a-ling 7.47 pm

    The thing is, I’m not a nasty regressive piece of work posing as an independence supporter while fluffing for his mate Vlad’s agitprop and insisting that the people of the country Vlad just invaded “had it coming”.

    Alert readers will of course also note that a mere four comments upthread in my response to James Che I poured scorn on the idea that the whole of the UK should be allowed a say on Scottish independence, as on the similar argument that the whole of Spain should have to “allow” Catalan self determination.

    Even by your admittedly myopic standards that’s a hum dinger, asserting I believed something when I’d stated the opposite 4 posts earlier.

  147. Republicofscotland says:

    Yeah Blackford’s interview with the Ponce on STV, in which he (Blackford) looked as sincere and convincing as Prince (I don’t sweat) Andrew did in his with Emily Maitlis.

    Sitting there in the STV studios (hanging off the chair because he’s so fat) like a pregnant Yak, and talking in a low voice trying to defend the indefensible we saw just what deceitful wee shite he is, I’d say Blackford shepherds his SNP MP flock at Westminster with fear and intimidation, rather than respect and ability.

  148. Republicofscotland says:

    ” I’m not a nasty regressive piece of work posing as an independence supporter ”

    Agent Ellis.


    You could’ve fooled me.

    Say hello to Tobias Ellwood for me when you’re next down in Denison.

  149. Saffron Robe says:

    Dave Hansell says:

    “…and the fact that every decision is based on the subjective reality in individual heads rather than objective reality.”

    How very true, Dave.

  150. Breeks says:

    YES! Just got out of doing something on Saturday. Yahoo. Got enough diesel? Check!

    Bannockburn AUOB here we come!

    These marches need more support folks. COVID lockdown knocked a zero off the attendance figures, so we really need to put it back.

    It’s also a dress rehearsal for the day a sea of Saltires pickets Bute House if Sturgeon still hasn’t got the finger out.

  151. Republicofscotland says:

    Meanwhile the millionaire knight of the realm (f*ck me the Labour party has really fallen down with a millionaire knight of the realm as its leader, how was this allowed to happen) and Labour leader Sir Kier Starmer has snubbed attending the traditional Durham Miners Gala, of which the previous Labour leaders attended.

    Mind you Starmer is about as much as real Labour socialist as Sturgeon is an Scottish independence supporter.

    The real Labour socialist Jeremy Corbyn, had one of the greatest political and establishment (security services) media campaigns against him, to smear him, because the Tory establishment feared his socialist policies would undermine the self serving greedy b*stards.

  152. Andy Ellis says:

    @Vlad’s ding-a-ling 8.14 pm

    Fooling someone as easily led as you wouldn’t take much, as evidenced by your uncritical acceptance of Kremlin agitprop.

    There again, folk know who I am, I’m posting under my own name here and on the Alba FB for my branch. You’re just some online ned without the courage to own their own opinions in public because you know how toxic they are.

    Unlike you, I have nothing to hide. It’s not hard to see why you choose to be a snivelling online coward.

  153. PacMan says:

    I agree with other posters that there is an underestimation by the media and the establishment of the public’s support for the Rail strike.

    I is plain to see that Mick Lynch is destroying the so called media personalities who come into contact with him and easily escaping the traps they are setting for him.

    Because of this people are going to support him regardless of their views on trade unionism.

    His performances are also showing the shortcomings not only of the mainstream media but also these media trained politicians which was seen with the Blackford STV interview today.

    As the cost of living crisis really starts to bite, we are going to see people question more and the meaningless corporate buzzwords spouted by the media and the politician chummies isn’t going to be enough.

  154. Republicofscotland says:

    So Grant Shapps the Transport secretary in England is thinking of bringing in strike busters in the form of agency workers if the there’s industrial action by the rail workers.

    The Tories will probably try any route other than paying the railworkers to break the strike.

    As for Shapps, read the chapter about his business ventures and multiple ID’s and you’ll see what kind of guy he really is.

  155. PacMan says:

    Dave Hansell says: 23 June, 2022 at 6:09 pm

    At the risk of being unpopular, Sturgeon will do nothing of any practical or effective significance simply because she cannot.

    I don’t think anybody would disagree with you.

    She has carefully cultivated a slick media image over the years and while the political seas have been gentle, she has been able to coast through smelling of roses.

    Now that she is faced with really challenges as well as actually having to deliver what her slick media image has repeatedly said she would do, she is found out to be totally incompetent, out of her depth and at times nearly being to the point of unable to string two words together when under even the slightest scrutiny.

    With what else you had said in the post, I wonder if she will be thrown a get out of jail card by Westminster to get out of holding a referendum where the SNP get involved in some way by for instance, a four nation committee in order to deal with the ‘national crisis’ that is inevitably coming?

  156. Robert Graham says:

    The same old song

    Jack the loads a money Tory being presented as the voice of Scotland in the right wing English press aye the old ones are the best ones.

    When are Scot’s going to waken up and say ah fk this you want fkn trouble ok come right ahead we have nothing to loose but a rat infested Tory English government.

    It might help if the SNP gets off their fkn knees I mean is that not what they’re for or have I been misled.

  157. John Main says:

    An earlier poster further up the thread was half right. Any referendum won’t be legally binding unless it is made so in advance. As this one won’t be (in all likelihood), plenty wiggle room for ignoring the result will be available.

    But it is not true to state that NO UK referendum is ever legally binding. If the act of (UK) parliament setting up the referendum states that it will be legally binding, then it is.

    No ifs or buts.

  158. Andy Ellis says:

    @Robert Graham 9.02 pm

    “It might help if the SNP gets off their fkn knees I mean is that not what they’re for or have I been misled.”

    Anyone with a brain knew after the damp squib non-event in January 2020 that the game was up. There’s been no excuse for anyone to believe what the SNP’s leaders have been saying since then.

  159. John Main says:

    @Republic 8:42

    Has Grant Shapps called for the destruction of any free, sovereign nations lately?

    Helpful to know the answer to that one as we assess what kind of guy he really is.

  160. John Main says:

    @Dave Hansell 6:09

    Sorry, but I can’t tell from your post which “self-inflicted wound” you are referring to.

    If it’s Covid, then you should know that many of the regulars on here were enthusiastic cheerleaders for the Covid restrictions. A few never missed any opportunity to call for even more restrictions, lockdowns and pointless economically suicidal policies.

    If it’s the war, then Scots Indy supporters find themselves in a bit of a pickle. They can hardly criticise a free, sovereign, independent country when it is fighting to extricate itself from an imperialistic, hegemonic neighbour. In fact, they can’t even be seen to be sitting on the fence, and still retain any credibility.

  161. Big Jock says:

    Andy 6.48. I agree. Who decides what makes a nation? The people of course. The people in the nation express a desire to be a nation. They have a right under the UN charter.

    The bigger country doesn’t decide. Otherwise no nation would ever set itself free. To many English people, Scotland is a region of England. That’s how they view us. But their opinion means nothing. Its up to us under international law to declare it.

    Domestic law is completely irrelevant. Catalonia failed not because of Spain or Spanish was because only 50% voted. The UN would never have recognised it.

  162. James Che. says:


    Get off yer high horse,
    I never mentioned we Scots living in Scotland do not have the right to self determination, go back and check todays comments, they read true enough,

    1) I believe that ( it ) is the treaty of the union that is supposed to have created the British parliament and the government of Great Britain,

    2) That makes the joining of Scotland with England and annexed Wales in 1706.
    This is what Scotland independence groups are fighting to free themselves from.

    3) We are not legally fighting to join anything, or to be recognised as an independent Scotland right at this time,
    Because we are still joined to England and annexed Wales according to the EU, the UN.
    And WE are not independent an independent country, . Therefore cannot be recognised by them as independent yet.
    That would be jumping the gun

    4) I did not address you.

  163. wull says:

    I reckon NS herself doesn’t know what she is going to say, or do.

    So, how can we know?

    Maybe she is even studying this site to try and get a few ideas.

  164. Alf Baird says:

    Big Jock @ 10:07 pm

    “But their opinion means nothing.”

    Quite right: “Independence is a matter only for the colonized” according to Albert Memmi.

  165. Shug says:

    If she pushes ahead and AS pushes a big a full head of steam in support she will be well scunnered and if compromised will end up in jail for displeasing her masters

  166. Breeks says:

    wull says:
    23 June, 2022 at 11:05 pm
    I reckon NS herself doesn’t know what she is going to say, or do.

    So, how can we know?

    I ask the question in all seriousness, but I wonder if Sturgeon is ill.

    Stress can be really weird in the way it manifests itself, but looking at the same problem for eight years while totally flummoxed what to do about it strikes me as a stress related dysfunction.
    I know it’s disputed as an illness, but adrenal fatigue relates to stress related dysfunction, or burnout. They can still talk the talk and outwardly pass for fit, but behind the eyeballs, the brain in no longer functioning. Some of the smallest tasks become insurmountable problems because the brain has lost its capacity to think.

    Listening to Sturgeon today, the speech disfluency was incredible. It’s scarcely an exaggeration to say every other word was an “eh”.

    Given other people’s remarks about her blinking being a nervous tic when she’s lying.

    Would stress related mental illness cause a profound change in someone’s personality? I think it’s a plausible possibility. Sturgeon is out of her depth trying to cope with a situation she can’t cope with but can’t objectively think her way out of.

    Sturgeon does not look well. Is it stress? Or is it guilt? Or is it a combination of stress and guilt?

    She needs professional help in my opinion. Quite literally for once, to step down for health reasons. The brain is a funny thing, but stress is it’s nemesis.

  167. Breastplate says:

    John Main,
    The ‘If you’re not for us you’re against’ argument is beyond simplistic.

    I’m quite happy for the Donbas regions to declare independence if that’s what they want, surely there is nothing wrong with that.
    It’s just a shame that it’s led to people fighting and dying for it and that external nations got involved to make matters a lot worse.

    What difference would it make to your everyday life if the Donbas regions were to make their own decisions?
    Why are people so animated about one particular clusterfuck on Russia’s doorstep but couldn’t give a shit about the clusterfuck that is Yemen on Saudi Arabia’s doorstep which has been the world’s biggest humanitarian crisis for these last few years?

    Are they the wrong colour?
    Have they brought it on themselves?
    Are they more deserving of death than others?
    Are you conditioned to think differently between Saudi Arabia and Russia?
    Are they both equally bad?
    Why isn’t anyone allowed the halfway house of not believing our own media as well as foreign media?

    My father always used to say “believe half of what you see and nothing of what you read”.
    He was referring to news and newspapers.
    You would be hard pushed to convince me he was wrong then or wrong now.

    As I’ve said a few times to you already, Russia is lying about the country we’re not allowed to name and so are the USA and the UK.

    Telling me to believe the shite spouted forth from our state broadcaster et al doesn’t exactly seem reasonable to me.

    Maybe I just need more time to come round, eh!
    I’m in a bit of a quandary about coming off the fence so maybe you can help.
    If you concede that we are being lied to by all MSM, which liars should I believe, the ones good at lying or the ones bad at lying?

    Or perhaps if you know which media outlet is telling the truth, you can let me know?

    What really surprises me John, which is the complete opposite of your position, is why there isn’t more people sitting on the fence when they know they are being fed lies by our very own media?

  168. John Main says:

    @Breastplate 11:59

    If Saudi Arabia succeeds in destroying Yemen, it is not coming after the Baltic Republics, Poland or Moldova next.

    Not difficult to see the difference, and thus why one situation is of far graver importance to us than the other.

  169. Breastplate says:

    Where are you getting your information that Russia is going to do that?

  170. Breeks says:

    You don’t know which way to turn with these idiots in the SNP, but apparently, the same staffer who Patricia Gibson wanted to take home and shag her, (sorry, quoting the National), but was cleared of misconduct she was too drunk to remember, is the same staffer who accused Patrick Grady of sexual harassment.

    So is this “victim” legit, or a serial complainer from the “wherever there’s blame there’s a claim”, culture, hovering around pissed Members of the SNP waiting for them to do something inappropriate? And of course, being reliably pissed most of the time, the MP’s are ripe for the taking.

    What a fucking binfire. And these asinine dipshits are the people who Scotland put it’s faith in, and trusted to deliver Scottish Independence? What a sick joke. What a complete shower of retarded fucking imbeciles.

    Come on SALVO, let’s do this. Let’s sack every one of these gullible embarrassments to Scotland, and try to save some face for our Nation.

    Take a bow Sturgeon, why don’t you? Fuckhead in chief.

  171. Saffron Robe says:

    Breeks at 11:50 pm:

    I think it may be a wee bit simpler than that, Breeks. She has been charged with independence but is entirely clueless as to how to bring it about. She is living in mortal fear of being exposed as the charlatan that she is, which comes closer with each passing day. It’s a bit like inveigling yourself into a job for which you have neither the skills nor the aptitude – you will be found out in the end. I have no sympathy for her whatsoever, we reap what we sow.

  172. Gekko says:

    In my view she’s waiting for an external event, so I voted 1.

    This can sometimes be a marginally acceptable strategy, for a while anyway, but is obviously passive and risky. Maybe she’s at the point of not caring?

    The more aggressive approaches would risk her candidacy for her next job (no one is giving the Catalan lot cushy sinecures) so I don’t see them happening and politicians think about these things a lot.

    I can see only two routes forward. Wait it out, maybe for a decade, try to build Indy support, actually focus on good government. Problem here is whether they have the talent to do good government and anyway they all get tired eventually. Second way is elect a firebrand leader and start banging heads. That’s sort of what AS was. Problem here is who that might be.

  173. John Main says:

    @Breastplate 1:09

    The leaders and most of the populations of these countries believe that is the fate that awaits them. They can’t all have been lied to by the UK MSM, NATO and the Pentagon.

    You can’t argue that the countries formerly under vicious Soviet repression and occupation don’t know what the score is. They have unforgettable first-hand experience, and no wish to turn the clock back.

  174. David Hannah says:

    I’m looking forward Tuesday’s gender reveal, and the announcement of the new three way referendum question on diva max.

    Nicola Sturgeon:

    “Should Scotland self identify as Scottish or British like transgender country Northern Ireland?”

    A. Scottish.
    B. British.
    C. Non binary.

  175. Effigy says:

    I was pleased to see that the Tories lost 2 by elections last night.
    In one case a record breaking 24,000 majority was overturned by a poor quality Labour Party

    The turn over is a full 30% which is quite incredible, however, if this was to happen all across
    England it would still leave the Tories with a majority of One!

    Come the next election in 2 years the pains of party gate and record inflation will have dulled
    and even if the economy cannot afford it they will put tax cuts and pension increases in place beforehand and herald it as their successes now coming thru and England will swallow it as they always do.

    Have no doubt Scotland will have yet another Tory government abusing it into the 2030’s unless we take control of our own future.

  176. Ottomanboi says:

    ANDY ELLIS 04:25
    You seem to be preoccupied by «recognition». The only things that matter is that the people concerned, themselves «recognize» their independence. All the rest is political, legalistic posturing.
    International law is scripted by the successor colonial powers remember.
    I and many desire an independent «Syriac state» in our homeland in north Iraq. The international «community» has done nothing to support my ethnicity’s claims to recognition.
    Do i care? We know who we are, that is enough. The Scots might do likewise.
    Btw Moscow have shown more understanding.

  177. wull says:

    Breeks, with regard to NS being in need of professional help, I think you may very well be right.

    Her world – the world she has been living in for the past few years, and most of which she constructed herself – is now ever-more-rapidly closing in on her. That from all directions – two in particular – and she must sense it.

    She is stuck in a dark place, a trap, albeit all of her own making.

    If she goes seriously for independence, the British state has so much on her they can easily finish her. But they’ll probably do it gradually, timing it (as they think) to perfection, so as to cause maximum damage to the independence cause. That means they will humiliate her completely, but slowly – drop by drop… The way a cat tortures a rat, and plays around with it, before finally killing it.

    If, on the other hand, she does not go seriously for independence, now that she has announced it, she will be exposed for the sham that she is to such an extent that even many of her diehard supporters are likely to turn against her.

    One way or another, she’s done for.

    The there is the other factor – AS. He, I suppose, is the ghost that haunts her internal consciousness. Not because of anything he has ever done to her, but because of what she did to him. He is being extremely generous, not exposing her in the least, but that will not give her any rest or consolation.

    To the contrary.

    The fact alone that he could expose her if he wanted to, any day he liked – even if in fact he never will – simply leaves her all the more spooked.

    As I said, it looks to me as if the shadows of the world that she invented for herself must be growing larger and larger, and moving faster and faster towards her, as they close in on her. Her world is heading for internal – and external – collapse.

    Will any of the straws she clutches at – whichever option she eventually chooses to announce – ever save her from falling down the slippery slope, or off the edge of the cliff?

    It doesn’t look like it to me. And I doubt very much that it looks like it to her. The confidence and buoyancy she once seemed to have has gone. Even if it was always fake in the first place, at least she COULD FAKE it. Now, it looks like she can’t even do that.

    The unreality of it all – of everything she has been doing and living for so long – was bound to take its toll some time. No one can live in a fantasy world – and impose it on others – for ever. Does she hear the sound of that inevitable voice, ever closer, and ever louder: ‘…Come in, Number Nicola, your time’s up…’?

    To be honest, I take no joy in this. There is something so tragic about it. Just as there was – and is – in the haunted face of Tony Blair. Two people who were handed such massive opportunities – opportunities, indeed, for good, and for the well-being of others – and who so massively squandered them. When you watch MacBeth, and go with him scene by scene towards his inevitable end, you know he is not right – but you can’t help feeling sympathy for him.

    There is nothing to gloat about, far less anything about which to be gleeful, in watching the inevitable decline and self-destruct of a human being. You still hope that that person won’t destroy himself or herself completely. That they’ll eventually find the way out of the nightmare they have created for themselves; that there will be some light, even for them, at the end of whatever very dark tunnel they dug themselves into …

    Sure, some here – maybe many – will disagree. With all kinds of seemingly good reasons. But, after all, … a human being is still a human being.

    I will be the first to admit it if I have got this all wrong. Yet tragedies are still tragic, and touch the heart.

  178. Mark Boyle says:

    Effigy says:
    24 June, 2022 at 7:49 am

    I was pleased to see that the Tories lost 2 by elections last night.
    In one case a record breaking 24,000 majority was overturned by a poor quality Labour Party

    The turn over is a full 30% which is quite incredible, however, if this was to happen all across
    England it would still leave the Tories with a majority of One!

    It’s only “incredible” if you look at the bare figures of “they lost” and nowt else. Anyone with any knowledge of current by-election dynamics will know the Tiverton result was a protest vote and they’ll revert to type come the next election. A fifth of the usual Tory vote stayed home in the huff. It was Labour who were actually in second place here for years (they went from 19.5% to a lost deposit). The Lib Dems are virtually non-existent at a local level in both the Tiverton side (Mid Devon) and Honiton (East Devon), thanks to past “issues” with local councillors and their habit of being in green belt housing developers back pockets …

    Instead, there’s a series of so-called “Independents Alliance”s which are really a ragbag of LibDems and Labourites, and who could give Sturgeon a run for her money in dirty tricks – including running up yellow press websites doing such things as posting up the registrations of local Tory supporters cars (right out of the Searchlight playbook of incitement).

    The chairman of the East Devon Alliance – the vilest of the bunch – Martin Shaw (a failed career Labourite) actually told people to vote Lib Dem at this election and his deputy Paul Arnott actually came out of the closet as a LibDem at the start of campaigning.

    There’s a separate group of independents on East Devon council who have been warning about these charletans for years, but to little avail as the EDA has the local press (owned by a Labour donor) in their back pocket. Sounds familiar? The one hope from all this is that the national press start looking into these so-called “Independence Alliances” and who they are all too often front groups for.

    As for Wakefield, turnout only 39%, a quarter of the vote from last time staying at home, and the real news being Akef Akbar – a local Tory turned renegade indy councillor- came third comfortably saving his deposit against all predictions. He’s vowed to stand at the next GE, and seems to be one of those dynamic “in your face” Yorkshire tykes who gets voter loyalty by deeds not words. He could be the one to watch there next time around.

  179. Republicofscotland says:

    “If Saudi Arabia succeeds in destroying Yemen”


    You forgot to finish the sentence, I’ll help you out.

    If Saudi Arabia succeeds in destroying Yemen, with UK made weapons which are killing thousands of Yemeni civilians (as the other mob are doing to their own folk in the other so called sovereign country you mentioned further up stream) and the UK is training Saudi pilots in UK airforce bases on how best to kill Yemenis.

    There I sorted it for you.

  180. Republicofscotland says:

    ” They can’t all have been lied to by the UK MSM, NATO and the Pentagon.”


    Thanks for the above, I don’t usually laugh so much in the morning but this has made my day.

  181. Republicofscotland says:

    Effigy @7.49pm.

    Yeah it had a bit of humour to it as well, with one of them locking herself in a sport centre not wanting to know the result, the other, I think, was the tractor watching MP who was actually watching porn in the HoC.

    I wonder if the SNP MPs Gibson and Grady will get the boot by the Scottish public when the time comes.

  182. Ottomanboi says:

    To knock down those illusions about the international community and its «law» all that is required is an overview of the history of the «MidEast» in the last 100 years or so, promises, promises…..
    Re Yemen, the misery begins with the Brits seizing of Aden and the divide and rule clan rivalries promoted in order to keep hold of the territory and hinterland.
    So familiar! Never trust a Brit, ever.

  183. Dorothy Devine says:

    Re Gibson and Grady, not for the first time has booze in the commons been used as an excuse for bad behaviour – time to end the ‘piss up at work parliament’ and perhaps drug / alcohol test MP’s thereby ensuring stupidity, dishonesty and deviousness are the only excuses.

  184. Mark Boyle says:

    Dorothy Devine says:
    24 June, 2022 at 10:01 am

    Re Gibson and Grady, not for the first time has booze in the commons been used as an excuse for bad behaviour – time to end the ‘piss up at work parliament’ and perhaps drug / alcohol test MP’s thereby ensuring stupidity, dishonesty and deviousness are the only excuses.

    Isn’t it funny how whenever an MP of another party does it, the SNP are first to demand resignations?

    When it’s one of their own, no chance!

    That it was the same staffer who was the victim of all this … WTF?

  185. Dickie says:

    With Boris struggling in the polls and with his own party MPs this is the moment for the SNP to take advantage and offer their support to the Tories in return for a referendum. Either promise to vote with them or at least abstain.

    Of course when the same tactic could have been deployed with May the bloated one ran a mile and there is no reason why they will not run a mile again because as we all know…the SNP have no desire whatsoever to hold a referendum

  186. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Interesting that Mike Lynch has become an overnight national sensation by telling the truth and using the word ‘socialist’ without wincing. Even manages to get James Connolly a name check on national television? Blimey…

    And who do we have presenting our case? Tommy Sheridan was great at it but he’s too ‘out there’ isn’t he? Alex Salmond was good at it but he would get himself all yon fankled-up way when it came to stuff like currency and royalty. Mhairi Black was a breath of fresh air but then she tried getting her drag queen pals into the primary school. The big guy who used to post here and attended a FOW gathering up north, Chris Law? Remember him? Do you reckon he’d stop for a blether with any of us these days? And what about Angus MacNeil? He actually *did* pop into the pub for a blether with us FOWers when we had a gathering in Dows, Glasgow. Didn’t stay long right enough but he was friendly and seemed gen.

    Why don’t we have even one character who is capable of focussing on independence and can avoid getting caught up in sex scandals, punting farcical gender-related shitery, or virtue signalling generally? What actual use is Alyn smith to us? Or Angus Roberston, or (God help us all) Ian Blackford?

    They’re all too centred on their careers and reckon that upsetting Sturgeon and Swinney would be damaging? Can’t they see that, even on a purely selfish level, the field is wide open for someone with the guts to break ranks? That such a person would receive, instantly, the same kind of gleeful appreciation currently being heaped on Mike Lynch?

    Even if the opportunity is obvious, they know that they can’t. They know – because they’ve clearly been well-warned – that any dissent will not be tolerated and the punishment is brutal. If anyone, anywhere, needs evidence of how distant the SNP has become from the reasonable wishes of ordinary Scots, they need look no further than the appalling performance of Ian Blackford in interviews with Bernard Ponsonby and others. It is hard to imagine a more humiliating display from from someone who is – and I can scarcely believe I’m writing this – supposed to be filling Alex Salmond’s shoes.

    Whether the SNP likes it or not, Scotland is fundamentally socialist. If it can acknowledge that simple fact and start to show it in policy development then it has a chance of regaining some of the trust lost in the past eight years. Otherwise, it’s fucked, and so are we.

  187. Mark Boyle says:

    Ian Brotherhood says:
    24 June, 2022 at 10:52 am
    Mhairi Black was a breath of fresh air but then she tried getting her drag queen pals into the primary school.

    She didn’t try, she succeeded.

  188. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “3. A plebiscite election would not be accepted by the UK Government. It would also require a majority of the vote (not just a majority of seats) for it to have any form of legitimacy.”

    A plebiscite election is not quite so easy to ignore. The UK government could certainly try to, of course, but depending on the precise nature of the result it would be tough for the international community to do so. It would be a clear and democratic expression of the will of the people under Article 1 of the UN Charter.

  189. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Which one of the above covers a consultative referendum, with a change in wording bringing it within the competencies of the Scottish Government and outside the reach of legal challenge.”

    No such thing exists. Nothing is beyond legal challenge.

  190. James Che. says:

    NS has gotten herself jammed between a rock and a hard place and very difficult to come out of this unscathed,
    As it is if she had gone for independence with her first vote of confidence we would be tying up the smaller details and lose ends of the treaty of the union by now.

    Looking the facts in the face regardless of whom is our political leader in Scotland there is only one reality that has to be dealt with.
    The treaty of the union,
    What amazes me is the obfuscation around this by ourselves, as if we cannot cope or cannot see it. And therefore do not talk the talk so we can not do the walk and celebrations ever later on.

    Scottish people want independence.
    What do they want independence from?

    The British government and the union.
    What holds or binds or glues us to the British government and the union so we cannot be free?

    The Treaty of the union words, for both countries, nothing else.

    As long as we talk about a / the politician as the problem we become unfocused as to the actual problem. Many are just puppets collecting financial pay. That hope to survive until they retire with a good government pension,They can easily be replaced in the exchange of the next bad leaders,
    A re- run gives us another go at labour, tories or snp.
    Better hurry up make your choice, the wheels turning back to the start.

    I understand your bored, we never get any where, we have been hitting ourheacs against the same brick wall.



    Jam tomorrow politicians are two a penny.

  191. Andy Ellis says:

    @Ottomanboi 8.05 am

    1) “You seem to be preoccupied by «recognition». The only things that matter is that the people concerned, themselves «recognize» their independence.”

    Independence without international recognition isn’t true independence. Ask the folks of Northern Cyprus, Somaliland, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Transnistria etc if they’d rather have total recognition or not. Even Kosovo, which has been recognised by most states who don’t have an axe to grind and/or their own issues with minority rights and internal independence movement, would I suspect still prefer to have recognition by all UN members.

    Not having such recognition has implications with respect to access to international organisations, NGO’s, funding, protection of citizens rights etc. I accept that a people have to “self identify” and want / recognise their own statehood, or potential statehood, but I think you underestimate the power and importance of formal recognition.

    2) “I and many desire an independent «Syriac state» in our homeland in north Iraq. The international «community» has done nothing to support my ethnicity’s claims to recognition.”

    I wish you well and support your aim, just as I support the rights of Kurds to their own state, and indeed of any self identifying group that expresses the desire to have self determination, particularly those who are subject to oppression, violence or ethnic discrimination. For my own information, is Syriac the same as Assyrian and/or Chaldean? Where would the independent state be? Would an independent Kurdistan help or hinder your aim do you think?

    3) “Btw Moscow have shown more understanding.”

    I doubt the sincerity of Moscow’s understanding. They weren’t so understanding with the Chechens, nor would they tolerate any other minority in the Russian Federation trying to assert their self determination.

    Their support for places like Transnistria, Sth. Ossetia and Abkhazia counts more as cartographic aggression to destabilise neighbouring states which used to be part of the USSR than any sincere desire to promote any general right to self determination. The same goes for the pretendy Donbas republics and their illegal take over of the Crimea in 2014.

  192. James Che. says:

    There is very little space to slide a piece of paper between a politician an a Lawyer. And most times they are both,
    One fits in snuggley with the other, and the transition is seamless.

    Both have one thing in common, the scenario set up.

    1) They need you to have a problem,
    2) They need to prolong your problem.
    3) they need to confuse you with technacalities.
    4) they need you to believe..that you need them.
    4) they need you, to employ them.
    5) If they can prolong your problem you have to pay more to cover the longer period.

    A politician like a Lawyer needs you to have a long term problem that you believe only they can sort out for you.
    They expect good renumeration’s long term to pay for their new car in the new driveway, or their holiday abroad.
    What ever the case may be this is how the system works for their benefit.

    A person must be led to believe themselves useless, in-ept, or ignorant, for a lawyers or politicians system to work. And yet in reality WE can see ourselves that which is wrong, that needs correcting or an injustice.
    We hand our power over to politicians in much the same way we hand over our rights to live as normal sovereign human beings.

    There is no need for a politician or an ex lawyer good or bad to speed up independence. If we keep the payments going into their banks accounts for as long as they can stretch our problem out over the years. You do not bite the hand that feeds you.

    The same can be said of holding on to the treaty of the union for the British Parliament,
    The would lose finances, status and ego.

  193. James Che. says:


    The EU stated that it would not deal with Scotland separately in Brexit as it was not an independent country.

    I would presume the same reason applies to the UN.

    I would also presume that if we never actively show the UN we want the right to self determination plus have a Scottish back up card of the “claim of right”
    We can thrash around and moan like a spoilt child till the cows come home.

    They have no need to pay any attention for nothing more than a childish tantrum from the Scots,

  194. Scottydog says:

    Had Nicola used the resources she has as FM to continue the momentum from 2014 and answer the questions that would convince the vast majority of Scots that independence was the best option, then we could be sitting with 75%, a guaranteed referendum and independence. She has wasted her time, not done the hard work required to shape a new nation and conned her own supporters. If the recent leaflet launch comparing Scotland with Iceland is anything to go by, this whole indyref2 farce will be even more of an embarrassment. Meanwhile she and her hubby will still be picking up the pay cheques.

  195. James Che. says:

    The UN will not recognise a non independent country nor will it bother to look at the nation of Scots as ethnic people.

    Otherwise it would have done so already after all these years of its existing.

    And still it does not recognise Scotland as a Colony, where our language was banned in our own Country.
    Where the national dress was banned, reintroduced in a different format, and the kilt is banned from being shown in schools in Scotland today.

    Where the Scots were dragged out of their homes and set on fire,
    Land was confiscated and replenished with sheep.

    Where one half of a international treaty is not recognised.
    Where Scots law is being consumed under Colonialism,
    Where The old British government of Colonialism tells the Scots population the can not be free in their own country, they say ” NO now is not the time”

    The UN Are aware of this history, but choose to have no teeth as a option.

  196. Republicofscotland says:

    This is f*ckin insane.

    “The US Supreme Court has voted to overturn the constitutional right to choose abortion which has existed for almost 50 years, paving the way for half the country to severely restrict or completely ban the practice.

    The power to decide on abortion rights for tens of millions of women will now be handed to the 50 states to determine individually.”

  197. Republicofscotland says:

    Re my above comment, (4.05pm) I feel that I should be running around with my hands on my head Like Edvard Munch’s Scream after reading this from Sturgeon.

    “Nicola Sturgeon has described the US Supreme Court decision to strike down a federal abortion law as “one of the darkest days for women’s rights in my lifetime”.”

    Sturgeon added with women in mind.

    “Solidarity doesn’t feel enough right now – but it is necessary.”

  198. Republicofscotland says:

    Lib/Dem branch manager in Scotland Alex Cole-Hamilton says of a coming indyref that its a waste of oxygen.

    More Cole-Hamilton is a waste of oxygen, if you ask me.

  199. Republicofscotland says:

    Well I never… take a bow Mr President, expect some kick back from Washington.

    “President of Mexico shows Collateral Murder, detailing the gunning down of civilians including two
    @Reuters journalists by US forces, revealed by Julian Assange”

  200. Breastplate says:

    Surely it is no surprise that Russia will will follow a trajectory of geopolitical self interest, likewise USA and the UK to the extent of illegal occupation of land belonging to others, breaking international law and generally bombing the shit out of anybody they feel like regardless of what the rest of the world thinks.

    “.. pretendy Donbas republics..”
    I assume your pejorative comments regarding self determination of the Donbas republics mean that you will be hoping they don’t gain international recognition.
    No doubt you believe everything can go back to normal after they have been bombed by Unionist forces for the last 8 years?
    Or maybe not?

    What difference does it make to your everyday life if people in the “pretendy Donbas republics” make decisions for themselves?

  201. Republicofscotland says:

    Breastplate @4.20pm.

    A wee heads up the Rev has banned discussions on the war anyone caught mentioning the participant countries or the combatants will be banned.

    I’m not surprised Agent Ellis hasn’t warned you. The shit he is.

  202. Breastplate says:

    I understood that he had banned certain names to minimise the childish name calling during discussions of said countries but I was unaware that he had banned discussions about it altogether.

    I tend only to reply to outlandish statements and differing opinions, I wouldn’t normally instigate these discussions so I would think it a bit harsh to ban me for a reply unless both were being banned and I’m also not a prolific commenter.

    Nevertheless, thanks for the heads up.

  203. Luigi says:

    The British establishment pulled out all the stops to prevent a socialist Corbyn government. Dirty tricks. That said, Corbyn could still have won if had an ounce of çharisma IMHO.

  204. Republicofscotland says:

    A excellent dissection of the Red Herring indyref that is a dead end, and why its designed to stop us calling for a plebiscitary election which could take us out of this God awful union.

  205. Robert Hughes says:

    Wull @ 8.39

    Spot-on take on the haunted spectre that is NS .

    It takes quite a bit of effort but – for the most part – I manage to temper shadenfreude with an inherent dislike of seeing people suffer , even someone as unsympathetically high-handed as daft wee Nicola and even if their woes are their own doing .

    The best thing for the Independence Movement and herself would be for her to make whatever excuse she considers plausible and GTF , let someone more capable fill the role she’s clearly not up to .

    This assumes of course she has the agency to step down , and is not caught in the web of Kompromat , ergo compelled to carry-on fucking-up the Independence aspiration .

    Whatever the truth , * the centre cannot hold * , I sense something will give , and possibly soon

  206. Breeks says:

    Where does it begin?

    The rally will start at 12.30pm and go from Auld Stirling Bridge and end up in Bannockburn field at around 4.15pm.

    Bring a flag in your hand and some joy in your heart.

    Let’s get these numbers up folks. Step up for Indy like we mean it.

    Alyn Smith is addressing the rally apparently, but don’t let that put you off going.

  207. twathater says:

    @ Wull 8.39am your interpretation of sturgeon’s possible health situation and your consideration and empathy shown towards her does you credit as the caring forgiving person you appear to be

    Unfortunately or not so unfortunately I am not so forgiving , I can appreciate and understand people doing certain things and hoping that those things will have a positive impact on people’s lives , I can even accept when things don’t go the way they should have or circumstances defeated their plans

    BUT what I cannot ever forgive is BLATANT LIES there is no excuse or forgiveness when someone deliberately and knowingly concocts scenarios and situations with others to DELIBERATELY injure or threaten someone else’s life purely to gain an advantage over that person whether it is financially or popularity wise

    IF sturgeon is suffering ill health either physically or mentally she has brought it on herself by her reviled and despicable lies and corruption and IMO she deserves all that is coming to her, for she has shown NO SYMPATHY or EMPATHY for the many lives she has blighted and destroyed with her incompetence and continued lies, or indeed for the many lives that were lost in putting covid patients in OAP’S care homes

    We ALL have a responsibility for our actions and our greed if you don’t want to face the outcomes don’t do the actions

  208. robertkknight says:


    “Alyn Smith is addressing the rally apparently, but don’t let that put you off going.”

    It’ll take him a month to just to work through the “correct” pronouns.

    I’m afraid it has put me off – hanging around to listen that is…

  209. Andy Ellis says:

    @Breastplate 4.20 pm

    1) “I assume your pejorative comments regarding self determination of the Donbas republics mean that you will be hoping they don’t gain international recognition.”

    Yes, because they aren’t legitimate cases for self determination. Nobody other than Vlad and a few chosen mates will ever recognise them, much like nobody but Turkey recognises the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. Of course much like the pretendy referendums in Crimea, nobody with two brain cells actually believes either of the People’s Republics are legitimate: as soon as they can they’ll petition to become part of the Russian Federation. It’s about as legitimate as the absorption of the Baltic States by the USSR after the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact.

    2) “No doubt you believe everything can go back to normal after they have been bombed by Unionist forces for the last 8 years?
    Or maybe not?”

    On balance I’d say not. If Vlad had had any sense of course he might have been able to cut a “land for peace” deal and keep the parts of the two pretendy republics and integrate them in to the motherland. Lots of people in the two areas – including many who speak Vlad’s language – had no desire to join the motherland of course, because they know it’s a plutocratic, regressive gangster state with little future.

    As things stand of course, the most likely outcome is regime change and Vlad looking up at his toes from below hanging from a lamp post. Few in the west with a moral compass will shed any tears.

    3) “What difference does it make to your everyday life if people in the “pretendy Donbas republics” make decisions for themselves?”

    The same difference it makes to Irish people if loyalists planted in Northern Ireland make decisions for themselves. Most of Vlad’s mates in the pretendy republics are incomers planted there since WW2, in much the same way Scottish and English protestants were planted in Ulster.

    Changing international borders by force is never a great idea. If it can be done without challenge in Donetsk and Luhansk it can be done anywhere: the Caucasus, Taiwan, Moldova, central Asia. No wonder the Finns are keen to join NATO: their larger neighbour to the East already took 10% of their territory and their second biggest city after the winter war.

    Of course, what’ is sauce for the goose and all that…? Doubtless there are a number of autonomous republics in Vlad’s backyard that would welcome your support to become independent. I expect you’ll be fully in support of them, right?

  210. Al-Stuart says:

    One for Rev Stu Campbell…


    Stuart, am I right in understanding you used to be a LibDemvoter? As such you may have the insight to help.

    I was wondering maybe you had the same thought I just did on watching the news coverage about same old same old politics? Not so much the same old in Scotland but to the same old in England at Westminster?

    For a brief moment watching the television news commentary and all the same old, same old excuses by the Conservatives and Labour the interview pivoted to Ed Davey leader of the LibDems.

    I’ve voted LibDem twice in 40 years and really wouldn’t trust them as far as I could throw them. However listening to Ed Davey and trying to put all else aside about politicians being the lowest of trade and with a disgusting reputation, Ed Davie had a quality bearing about him which was far more akin to a proper leader than Keir Starmer. I’ve always had a bit more respect given he managed to make something of himself from such tragic beginnings and saving a life of another by jumping onto railway lines in 1995.

    In the UK scheme of things it isn’t beyond the realms of possibility that…

    Ed Davie may become the U.K.’s next prime minister.

    Much stranger things things have happened. Who would’ve thought Nick Clegg would be deputy prime minister?

    The whole UK political scene is a disgusting bourach. Scotland is stuffed under oberstormfuerer Sturgeon our ReichsWokeMarshall.

    Any salvation to rescue us from the corrupted pervert-fest at SNP GropenStag HQ will factually need to come from Westminster.

    As one of the most incisive minds I know, and always with an opinion worth listening to and forensic detail to back that up, Stuart I was wondering whether you might consider a few words on the pros and cons of Ed Davie becoming the next UK prime minister?

    Unfortunately, Ed Daley is currently Woke-Captured. Worse, Ed Davey believes Scottish independence is BREXIT 2.0.

    Fortunately, as we know from Nick Clegg and his incontinence to become Deputy PM, the Lib Dems have the morals of the oldest profession – that being banking (not ladies of the night).

    The prospect of the Lib Dems gathering in a vote off of the majority of pi55ed off UK citizens is growing and now a significant, existential threat to Boris-Name-That-Wean and his Tory roasters.

    With the results of such a large swing last night to let the LibDems win a statistically historic victory off of disaffected/disgusted Tories, maybe an outside bet on Davey for PM is worth 20 quid?

    The fact, based on Clegg precedent, is LibDems will ditch any and all of their woke or anti-Scottish policies just to get Ed Davey into number 10 Downing Street.

    Does anyone consider it a possibility that we may have independence sooner than we reckon, with thanks to LibDem morals being so flexible?

    I just cannot get myself to vote for Kier Starmer. He is a lawyer politician. We’ve already got a lawyer politician squatting in Bute House. Sturgeon is a failed lawyer and a fake First Minister. So I ain’t wanting another lawyer politicians to go into 10 Downing Street thank you.

    The writing seems to be on the wall for the failed journalist from Manhattan otherwise known as Boris Pantsov. Away back to Donald Trump and yer American roots ya fake prime minister.

    So Stuart is it worth putting 20 quid bet on at Ladbrokes for Ed Davey to be our next prime minister?

    More interestingly is it worth putting 20 quid on Scotland actually becoming independent by events far beyond the grasping claws of the deviant currently living it large in Bute House?

    Stay well Stuart and please enjoy your retirement, though as you know many of your readers this one included very much enjoy when you come out of retirement for your monthly escape from the old peoples home.

  211. Robert Graham says:


    Question after the biggest inoculation experiment in history

    WHY ARE WE SEEING A RISE of infections ? Assuming that the propaganda is right and a overwhelming number of people have been persuaded to be jabbed with this serum apparently the tiny amount of nut jobs who haven’t been poisoned with the serum are the ones spreading the plague .

    Before the “ WHO “ The World Health Organisation changed the definition of a vaccine it used to mean “ protection against a particular disease “ this junk offers protection for one group and one group only “ CHEMICAL MANUFACTURERS “

    THE BIGGEST dereliction of moral duty to protect patients by the medical profession in history and people who have been jabbed are suffering from a acute memory loss they can’t believe any industry or profession could intentionally make them sick .

    Waken up FFs

  212. Breeks says:

    To talk about war without talking about war, many years ago, the 2000AD comic had a Judge Dredd story about war, where wars were reduced to a 3 vs 3 battle to the death, and the winner took home all the spoils of war without the mass destruction. So the incentive to win was still massive, because you absolutely didn’t want to lose.

    MegaCity 1 vs SovCity1 I think it was… but it was a long time ago.

    A brilliant concept. All the research and investment went into 3 super soldiers, fighting like gladiators in a controlled arena.

  213. Ottomanboi says:

    Think you ought to read this before pronouncing on the affairs in the east.

    This is the basis for the current conflict.
    Gone are the days when the western press dealt with fact.
    Look up up the term «ut possidetis»

  214. Republicofscotland says:

    Breeks @6.38pm.

    Check out French artist Jacques-Louis David’s painting the Oath of the Horatii, its in the Louvre, I don’t me fly to Paris to see it. The back story is of three Horatii warriors pitted against three Curiatii warriors from Alba Longa.

    The six do battle so the two armies do not have to. I have a print of it on my wall.

  215. Andy Ellis says:

    @Ottomanboi 6.42 pm

    Perhaps it won’t come as a great shock to you that I’m actually a bit better read on the topic than needing some random on the internet to direct me to an 8 year old Guardian article?

    I know what “uti possidetis” is thanks. Sadly for Vlad and his mates in the pretendy People’s Republics it means that the international community takes a dim view of new states that try to modify old borders by force rather than by mutual agreement with their neighbours.

    Of course if Vlad didn’t have judgement and self control of a rabid hyena he *might* have been able to negotiate a “land for peace” deal with his neighbours. Doesn’t seem very likely now does it?

  216. Republicofscotland says:

    It will be almost impossible for yes to win an indyref if one were to be held next year which it won’t be, due to the sheer and utter bias of the media in the UK against Scottish independence.

    Here’s a prime example of the state broadcaster acting in a bias fashion, UDI or a plebiscitary election is the way out of this woeful union.

  217. Mia says:

    After 8 years of an embarrassing and underwhelming performance, one can say quite confidently that this woman is either a coward or a fake who never sought independence in the first place.

    Judging by her trajectory over the last 8 years, the only way she is going to go for option 3 is if she is certain yes will not win. She either goes for another S30 knowing this will be refused so she can blame Westminster to escape accountability, or for a “wildcat” referendum knowing it will be challenged in the courts, so she can also blame Westminster for it hopefully removing attention from herself. The advantage of this wildcat option for her is that it would postpone the idea of a referendum for another few years and with a bit of luck spanning beyond the next GE so she can enjoy the comforts of not having to feel the pressure of delivering a plebiscite.

    Delay, delay, delay is her motto. Every move of hers appears to be designed to stall and delay, delay, delay…

    In my humble opinion, at present a plebiscitary GE is better option for Indy than a Holyrood election. The tories are haemorrhaging seats as we speak and people in England is very unhappy. The strikes are just starting. With the astronomical levels of inflation things are going to get really ugly very quickly. The increases in food prices are already quite obvious as are the energy ones.

    The pack of union activists on demand the British state may have freely used to register in the Holyrood election and that could have been used in pre-brexit times to ensure the pro-indy vote in Scotland was below 50% in GEs, may be needed even more urgently down south for strategical voting to contain the haemorrhaging of half of its seats by the tory party.

    Divide and conquer they say. Forcing the British state to fight two fronts at once may play to our advantage…

  218. Breastplate says:

    Stop telling everybody what the international community thinks of this or thinks of that.
    I admire your chutzpah but you simply don’t know, nobody does.
    What you should know however is that the international community do not agree on anything.

    If you let people know that what you say is your simple opinion and not a decree from God then perhaps, just perhaps, they might take you more seriously.

    Also, you might have to add a bit more reason to your pronouncements and drop the emotional attachment to why countries you don’t like are bad, bad, bad.

    Although if you did that, you would definitely be less entertaining.
    In my opinion, of course.

  219. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Breastplate (10.06) –

    The idea that Ellis could possibly be ‘less entertaining’ is a belter!

    🙂 🙂 🙂

  220. Ian Brotherhood says:

    This is a pretty random thought, but can anyone explain *why* the United Nations is the be-all-and-end-all of all constitutional stuff and suchlike?

    On whose say-so?

    I don’t remember ever voting for a delegate to represent me and my community at the UN.

    So, if it’s not a ‘democratic’ organisation, why should we be at all bothered about what it thinks of our ‘rights’? They’re for us to decide, not them.

  221. Breastplate says:

    I think theoretically the UN is a great idea, maybe not so much in practice like many ideals but I think we need to utilise it.

    I think it should definitely be headquartered in a neutral country though.

  222. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Breastplate (10.32) –

    Yes, the ‘idea’ is pure braw, and one that Burns would surely have championed.

    But what about this stuff?

    I say nothing about the content (don’t want to prejudice any viewing) but am genuinely curious for your thoughts.

  223. Breastplate says:

    As far as I can make out from some of the articles I’ve read over and above the link that you gave and I’m happy to be corrected, it seems to be a coping mechanism to prevent an overloaded emotional response to traumatic events that are too big for our brain to deal with.

    So a sort of induced apathetic state that may be individual or collective in nature.
    There’s definitely a discussion to be had on whether that state is self induced or externally aided by design.

    We’re constantly being bombarded by adverts telling us what to eat, what to drink, what to wear and we have media, politicians and institutions telling us what to think, what to say and how to act.

    I’m not sure but maybe psychic numbing is seen as a negative reaction by the people and institutions that are trying to manipulate us.

    How effectively can we be influenced if we are not engaged in what we are being told to believe or if we simply aren’t hearing the narrative?

    I always imagined that the first line of defence against being manipulated is to accept that you can be, maybe this is another form of defence against external influences?

    I’d be happy to hear other people’s take on it.

  224. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Breastplate (12.33) –

    Thanks for response, and yes, it would be good to hear anyone else’s thoughts.

    But I do think it’s something we should visit again.

  225. Breeks says:

    Ian Brotherhood says:
    24 June, 2022 at 10:18 pm
    This is a pretty random thought, but can anyone explain *why* the United Nations is the be-all-and-end-all of all constitutional stuff and suchlike?

    On whose say-so?

    The forerunner to the UN was the League of Nations, founded in 1919 after the Great War with the intention of preventing future wars. It failed, and couldn’t stop the build up to WW2.

    The UN was the replacement after WW2, basically attempting to do the same job.

    It’s “authority” comes (I think), from trying to diffuse potential wars by acting as an independent arbiter in disputes, and encouraging nations to sign up to treaties and protocols which attempt to assert influence through force of numbers and collective action. It will occasionally set up buffers between warring factions and send in peace keeping troops to keep the warring factions apart.

    The problem with the UN in my opinion was post WW2, and the permanent members of the security Council, China, France, Russia, UK and US. These were the victors of WW2, who were also nuclear powers, and seen as de facto world policemen. Unfortunately I think that enshrined an institutional “colonial “ bias in the UN which hasn’t dated well.

    Furthermore, instability in the world has too often been instigated and led by these powers, especially through Cold War proxy wars, and UN resolutions seem optional bargaining chips at times, whether it’s the resolutions against Israel being ignored, or the war in Iraq without specific UN resolutions. They are not even handedly dealt.

    The UN is basically the world’s referee, but a referee without the military might to backup it’s decisions, but where the US likes to thinks NATO should supply the muscle.

    The UN is I think caught between a rock and a hard place, because while NATO adopts an expansive philosophy, NATO is more of a threat to peace than effective world policeman, but without NATO, the UN is pretty toothless. Not toothless exactly, it just lacks the power of command over its own policeman.

    The permanent seats on the Security Council is obsolete. The UK, especially the UK when it’s just England has no legitimate claim to be a permanent member, especially when you look at India, and Allies of WW2 is an outdated relevance. The UN’s epicentre in the 21st Century is not where it was in 1945.

    I think too, the issue of Israel’s flagrant disregard for 45 UN Resolutions to remove itself from Palestinian territory is has occupied and it’s treatment of Palestinian people, is also a stain on the UN’s potency and influence. Whatever the UN’s successes, Israel must stand talk as its greatest humiliation and failure.

    It sticks in the craw of every fair minded person, but especially every Muslim, that Israel can do what it likes and spurn UN Resolutions with impunity, while for Muslim nations, even a dubious and flimsy UN Resolution allows the trigger happy West to bomb the place back into the stone age. Why would any Muslim nation have faith in the UN?

    The UN is a good Organisation, but it seeks to keep the peace between some violently opposed and not altogether rational philosophies, and in my opinion, doesn’t get the balance quite right.

    The League of Nations failed and we got WW2. If the UN fails… well…

    Just to confuse the issue further, I firmly believe the EU has done more for peace in Europe than the UN, but the two I think compliment each other. But I’m not at all impressed by the EU’s handling of the war we cannot mention. I smell NATO pulling strings, but the EU should be more alert to that. The EU is succumbing to influences against which I thought it was much more resilient.

    The UN is custodian of the International Book of Rules, but it’s weakness is a dependency on Nations respecting those rules. The scary thing for me, is I think society has a cyclical amnesia about war, and it’s shocking effects. We forget the value of peace.

  226. Dan says:

    Yay! The overnicht rain has cleared and it’s noo blue sky and sunny (at least for the time being…). Ideal conditions for a motorbike run through to Stirling with veteran and new YES Bikers.
    Fuel tank brimmed, check
    Tyre pressures set, check
    Oil and coolant levels ok, check
    Saltire and flagpole packed, check
    Wee vial of Castrol R in pocket for sensory stimulation, check!

    Hope all that are attending have, and make it a good day.

  227. Breeks says:

    I’m leaving shortly Dan.

    I’m infantry, not mech battalion, but I’ll likely see you there. lol

  228. Mark Boyle says:

    Breeks says:
    25 June, 2022 at 7:32 am

    The forerunner to the UN was the League of Nations, founded in 1919 after the Great War with the intention of preventing future wars. It failed, and couldn’t stop the build up to WW2.

    The UN was the replacement after WW2, basically attempting to do the same job.

    To be fair to the League of Nations, it was doomed from the start as the very nation responsible for it – the USA – refused to join it. That came back to bite American in the arse later over Japan in the Pacific.

    Also, unlike the UN where a majority verdict can carry votes but five powers are allowed a more equal than others veto, all decisions at the LoN had to be unanimous, making it hopeless for major political crises.

  229. Dorothy Devine says:

    Doing a sundance for all at Bannockburn – have a great day.

  230. Ottomanboi says:

    ANDY ELLIS 06:58
    Not the Guardian piece itself which is rather poor journalism but ok re the revanchiste underpinnings of the nationalism involved but rather the Washington Post map indicating the linguistic divide which happens to correspond to russophone regions «Valodya» wishes restored.
    Lvov/Lemberg was once culturally Polish and Jewish until the cleansing of both.
    Pleased you know the meaning of the latin term, the Brits could well attempt to employ it regarding Scottish territory. The notion of «ut possidetis» is responible for most of the border conflicts in former subjugated territories, lines arbitrarily drawn by clerks in sand etc.
    Scroll back eight years or so to find a quite different media take on this intra slavic conflict. Very curious indeed this accommodation with a species of fascism, oh that Zeitgeist thing.

    Bonne journée!

  231. Ottomanboi says:

    The ineffectual UN.
    Add the Korean war, Vietnam war, Cuban crisis, Falklands…..
    The «international community» should keep its snout out of Scotland’s affairs.

  232. Breeks says:

    I’m not so sure about that Ottomanboi…

    There are failures and failures.

    Who can tell to what extent the mere existence of the UN allowed the superpowers to face each other down, adequately flatter their egos, and avert disastrous wars?

    And where wars couldn’t be averted, to what extent was the theatre of the fighting contained? Finally, what part did the UN play in getting these wars to end?

    It’s a failure of sorts that war breaks out, but it’s in all our interests that the UN survives and improves, occasionally as it learns from mistakes.

  233. sarah says:

    O/T – but then everything for independence is ON topic here so to all at Bannockburn today, here’s to you, have a great day and hope that the flame will burn brighter.

  234. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Breeks (7.32) –

    Thanks for that thought-provoking comment.

    I don’t see any logical reason why entire nations should honour any such organisation when it is clearly biased in favour of specific ideological projects. (The WHO is another one, basically a Bill & Melinda Gates folly.)

    Our independence is just as important as anyone else’s, so we should be prepared to apply critical thinking along with a serious dollop of selfishness if we’re ever to make our case seen and heard internationally. Gloves off, tear up the ‘rule books’, and get intae them!


  235. James Che. says:

    It would have been nice to see all of us that want Scotland to be independent, at Bannockburn to day to raise awareness across the country,
    I wish we could be there but we have two people with cancer in my family, so it is not possible for us to travel far.

    However sing, dance and shout for us as loud as you can pleases, we are there with you in spirit,
    I hope it is a good turn out on such a lovely day.

  236. PacMan says:

    Regardless of whether the RMT negotiations are successful or not, I do think that Mike Lynch has torn apart the media and Tory party ‘There is no alternative’ narrative towards the economic direction the UK has been and is taking.

    It will be interesting if Labour can capitalise on this but given the Sir knight of the realm and his cronies are in charge, it is doubtful.

    However, given that Anas Sarwar has publicly supported the strikers, could Labour in Scotland be allowed to capitalise on it instead and dent the SNP chances in the next UK General election?

  237. stuart mctavish says:

    Ian Brotherhood 24 June @ 10:52

    Old morning star article highlighting Mike Lynch’s apparent enthusiasm for obliging paying customers to submit to fake science and dehumanising dress codes that might be of topical interest in the matter of ascertaining whose naivety risks causing most harm long term:


    Given that she’s probably fast approaching stage of being an international conversation starter in her own right already, its certainly intriguing that Nicola has plenty to say about Roe v Wade – which has a relatively profound independence v central control element, over and above the more obvious womb owners rights/ emotional triggers – and arguably not enough (or in any case not enough that gets traction elsewhere) about human rights of the political prisoners in US (Jan 6), UK (Assange), or even/ especially the Apple Daily detainees in the former Ayrshire colony of HK ..

    Hopefully she’ll get around to it as soon as its deemed expedient enough to remove the gags for real (ie after setting the date this Tuesday 🙂 ) – and delegate barnstorming speeches on such matters to minions like Alyn Smith in the interim ..

  238. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @stuart mctavish –

    Cheers for that link. Interesting.

    Also interesting will be the reaction of the Bannockburn crowd to Daddy Smith’s appearance. If he ends up being pelted with unmentionables, who will he blame?


  239. Republicofscotland says:

    Radio news apparently thirty US states are to, or have begun, enforcing anti-abortion regulations, with abortion clinics in these states closing down not wanting to face legal challenges.

  240. James Che. says:

    Ian Brotherhood,
    That had fleetingly passed through my thoughts to.

  241. stuart mctavish says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    Hopefully the speech is/was so good he’ll not feel need to blame anyone other than the missionaries of the apocalypse and an extraordinary series of unfortunate events – worst case, that ‘Devil Woman’ might make for a cheeky enough response*

    * Think Cliff Richard &/ or the one that takes you from behind..

  242. auld highlander says:


  243. auld highlander says:

    Bannockburn live…

  244. Republicofscotland says:

    According to this, Sturgeon’s Italian jaunt mid-week has more to it than meets the eye, is Sturgeon eyeing up her SNP exit next year when she sells us out yet again on an indyref as she looks to secure new position.

  245. Confused says:

    Nikki should find a job in a place with no extradition treaty; out of office she is a “civilian”.

    – maybe she could find some jewish ancestry and make aliyah; she has the look of a “yenta”.

    I think Head of NATO would be a good fit for her; she could ask George Robertson what the interview is like.

  246. twathater says:

    Nicla having the brass neck to attend ANY summit to talk about women’s rights this loonball knows no shame

    Meanwhile eyebrow alyn is speaking (pushing shite)at a indy march to try to ensure his place at the trough is secure through a leadership challenge , which will be more rewarding than attending some pride march where he may look out of place

    Can I ask breeks or Dan how many woke placards or banners were front and centre at today’s march

  247. Andy Ellis says:

    @Ottomanboi 8.53 am

    1) “Not the Guardian piece itself which is rather poor journalism but ok re the revanchiste underpinnings of the nationalism involved but rather the Washington Post map indicating the linguistic divide which happens to correspond to russophone regions «Valodya» wishes restored.”

    I’m not sure “revanchiste” is the right term in the context of the country that dare not speak its name. The linguistic divide is obviously a factor, but if you look at the post independence elections, many of the areas which are mixed or even predominantly speak Vlad’s mother tongue voted in favour of remaining independence. Even in the pretendy republics in the Donbas many speaking both languages opposed either being absorbed by the former imperial power, or seeing Vlad and his mates destroy their “new” state. Most russophones in central and southern areas oppose Vlad and his orcs.

    2) “Lvov/Lemberg was once culturally Polish and Jewish until the cleansing of both.”

    Yes, I know. the same goes for lots of places in much of Eastern and central Europe. Vilnius too was mixed with Lithuanians and others Belorussians. The trouble with much of the ethnic map at the time was that it was like a patchwork quilt, with lots of islands of different ethnic groups, and cities which were often very mixed. Lemberg/Lvov/Lviv itself was predominantly Polish, but the surrounding province was mostly not.

    3) “Pleased you know the meaning of the latin term, the Brits could well attempt to employ it regarding Scottish territory. The notion of «ut possidetis» is responible for most of the border conflicts in former subjugated territories, lines arbitrarily drawn by clerks in sand etc.”

    We are where we are. Absent some overarching international organisation which has the political, economic, military and moral power and authority to impose solutions, it was always more likely that “ut possidetis” would apply. As you rightly point out, if it didn’t there would be nothing to stop the britnats deciding that the borders and Northern Isles should be excluded from independence in future if they continued to vote “No”. The system we have may not be perfect, but unless you have a plausible alternative, and a way to make that alternative happen, you’re just building castles in Spain as our French friends say.

    4) “Scroll back eight years or so to find a quite different media take on this intra slavic conflict. Very curious indeed this accommodation with a species of fascism, oh that Zeitgeist thing.”

    Lot’s has happened in the past 8 years. You and others have obviously swallowed the narrative of the recently invaded country being riddled with fascists. Not many reasonable people share your worldview, even if they tend to be over represented in the BTL comments in this place.

    The general population are pretty scornful of the narrative, not because they are dupes of the Western MSM, or ill-informed, but just because they can see Vlad’s agitprop for what it is, and smell his fellow travellers from a mile off. They are of course entitled to their views, but most of us are pointing and laughing at their conspiracy theorising and sophomoric QAnon posturing.

  248. Andy Ellis says:

    @Breastplate 10.06 pm

    1) “Stop telling everybody what the international community thinks of this or thinks of that.
    I admire your chutzpah but you simply don’t know, nobody does.
    What you should know however is that the international community do not agree on anything.”

    I think alert readers are capable of picking up that it’s my opinion, based on my reading of events. That’s how it generally works in comments. We can’t guarantee what the international community will do, or how it will react, to Scottish independence or UDI, but we can make informed guesses based on precedent and history. Similarly for international law: it’s not an exact science, these things never are….so what?

    If you and all the advocates of “cunning plans for indy” and / or UDI are so sure the international community, UN and international law will bend to your will, then go for it! I wish you well convincing first the Scottish electorate that your hot take is more accurate than mine, and then convincing everyone else. Let us know how that goes!

    2) “If you let people know that what you say is your simple opinion and not a decree from God then perhaps, just perhaps, they might take you more seriously.”

    You’re doing that think that moonhowlers do again aren’t you? Making things up that nobody ever said to make a cheap point. I’ve never said or asserted that I’m the Secretary General of the UN, or the king of the world who is going to hand down ex-cathedra judgements of right and wrong. I am however just as entitled to present my case on here, based on my understanding, reading and knowledge, and compare and contrast it with those of others.

    If you and they can’t take others pointing and laughing at your arguments, you’re probably in the wrong place.

    3) “Also, you might have to add a bit more reason to your pronouncements and drop the emotional attachment to why countries you don’t like are bad, bad, bad.

    Although if you did that, you would definitely be less entertaining.
    In my opinion, of course.”

    Any reasonable person should think that Vlad and his Orcs are “bad, bad, bad”. To think otherwise demonstrates that you have no moral compass. That is – of course – my opinion. So what? I’m entitled to believe that, and to say it. You’re entitled to think Vlad is just misunderstood, or that the people of the country he invaded “had it coming” as anonymous BTL regular “Republic of Scotland” has it.

    I happen to believe that my “worldview” on these things is pretty mainstream, and represents the views of the overwhelming majority of the independence movement and Scottish voters in general. There is at least some polling evidence to support the popularity of such mainstream views. You and others are of course entitled to believe the opposite, and to insist that your view are actually the majority view. Time will tell.

    Of course most of us who think Vlad is a thoroughly bad person are capable of holding two concepts in our minds at the same time and (shockeroonie!) criticising western policy at the same time, whether historically or in the present. It does however take a special kind of person to give any credence to the concept that there is any sense of moral equivalence between western liberal democracies and authoritarian, repressive regimes elsewhere. The Wolfie Smith types are always with us: they never change, and they never achieve anything.

    For what it’s worth, I find many such moonhowlers quite entertaining. They elicit a lot of mirth, and intermittent requirements to wipe my keyboard and screen down after I’ve spat my coffee out laughing at them.

  249. Breeks says:

    Ooooft. Just in.

    Tannoy said 2000, but I’d have guessed higher.

    Fair puggled. Long story but I must have treked about 9 or 10 miles today. March was only 4 miles, but I walked it twice and got lost too. lol

    Ma pair wee dugs earned medals today. The wee fella is 14, but soldiered on like a champ. I must have been carrying his own body weight in water. Couple of wee rests, couple of wee carrys, but he never faltered.

    I dunno. Think I might retire the wee fella from marches. At 14 he’s done his bit. He’ll be into double figures for marches now.

    2000 isn’t enough. We’re still needing a 0 on that.

  250. Republicofscotland says:

    This English government loves its dictatorships, and these six are some of the worst going.

    BORIS Johnson’s government has dropped “human rights” and the “rule of law” from its list of objectives in securing a trade deal with Gulf states.

    Both issues were included during a consultation published in October on what the trade deal should achieve.

    “However, neither made it into the final list which was published this week.

    Earlier in the week, International trade secretary Anne-Marie Trevelyan met representatives of the Gulf Co-operation Council (GCC) in Riyadh to begin negotiations with the six-nation bloc, which includes Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, and the UAE.”

    Johnson daren’t upset them, or MoD might find its listening stations and airbases removed by those awful regimes.

  251. Andy Ellis says:

    @Breeks 7.32 am

    I’m wondering what alternative to the UN you think is feasible or desirable?

    I’ve no axe to grind in favour of the UN as an institution and quite agree WRT to many of its manifest failures over the decades, whether relating to Palestinian rights, or other under publicised and long term political failures in places like Western Sahara the Chagos Islands, its failure to prevent multiple genocides over decades in Cambodia, Rwanda, the Balkans, Myanmar.

    The question is, what are you suggesting we replace it with and how?
    It’s all very well wishing for unicorns and rainbows, but how are you going to reform the UN to make the world better?
    Abolish the right of veto in the security council?
    Expand the security council to include India, Brazil, Nigeria or some others perhaps?
    What do you propose happens to countries who ignore UN resolutions?
    Should the UN have its own armed forces to impose its decisions?
    How will that be paid for?
    Who will provide the personnel and materiel?
    Will Vlad and Xi Jinping welcome the UN imposing the right of self determination on them for peoples in their countries?
    Would britnats accept the UN imposing a united Ireland?
    Would the USA accept the UN dictating terms which involved subjecting their citizens to supra-national jurisdiction?
    Would Saudi Arabia and other islamic regimes accept the imposition of freedom of religion for non-muslims in their countries?

    The UN, much like the EU, operates within the constraints the member countries set. Unless you’re proposing supra-national authority with teeth to impose the will of the majority against the veto of “sovereign states” it would seem to me you’re on to a hiding for nothing.

    The aphorism attributed to Churchill about democracy being the worst possible system of government, apart from all the others which have been tried from time to time, seems apposite. It’s all very well to sit on the sidelines and throw rocks at an imperfect institution like the UN, or wish that international law and “the system” were something other than they actually are, but what’s your realistic alternative?

    Those like Brotherhood of Bam asking “What has the UN ever done for us” just come across as a bit well….out there. that’s fair enough of course, but I have my doubts their worldview of a UN-less world where the Scottish republic exists in splendid isolation has much traction with the wider electorate, or indeed anyone with two braincells.

  252. Dorothy Devine says:

    Well done Breeks and I’m sure the wee dug will sleep well tonight.

  253. Ian Brotherhood says:

    It’s noteworthy that Ellis persists in ‘replying’ to comments which were not directed at him.

    I now regard his insults as a form of acknowledgement – it means a nerve has been touched.

    BTW, does anyone know what ‘Brotherhood of Bam’ actually means? It may well be an allusion to some arcane geopolitical hingmy that only PhD peeps would ‘get’.

  254. Breastplate says:

    Be careful, Ellis will have you know that he is a black belt member of the MSMeratti and his worldview is mainstream, which obviously makes him infallible.

    He’s still entertaining, though.

  255. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Breastplate –

    I’ve never taken enough interest in Ellis to find out what his doctorate is in. I understand it’s something to do with international politics or suchlike? Sounds supersexy, like some Austin Powers gig.

    Can’t help wondering whether or not he has to get his PhD MOT-ed every now and then, just to make sure he’s keeping up.


  256. Andy Ellis says:

    Oh hello Brotherhood of Bam…I thought you’d flounced off in protest at Rev Stu’s censorship?

    More comebacks than Frank Sinatra huh? 🙂

    I wouldn’t say comments necessarily touch a nerve: it’s a public forum and folk are presumably free to respond to any comments they like. Plenty of the moonhowlers respond to my comments that may not be directed to them. I ignore some and respond to others. You appear not to understand how BTL commentary works.

    Mind you, you’re a science denying conspiracy theorist, so the bar is pretty low in your case!

  257. Breeks says:

    I didn’t notice any woke placards and stuff.

    You may not believe it, but I swear its true, I had the phone all set to record the reaction to Smith, but somebody started talking to me, and by the time they’d finished, Smith was already up and talking. So I’m sorry, I don’t know if he was booed or heckled, but my dogs now have neat wee Saltire kerchiefs for their collars.

    He did rabbit on about working with absolutely anybody, unity blah, blah, blah,…. and welcomed everybody to Stirling, but I can’t remember anything else. I was still distracted. The dogs collar was off, and so was he, the little f”*!er. FREEDOM!

    He’s a Claim of Right kinda dog. Fk it. I’m off. Carpe Diem.

    I was kinda proud actually. “That’s ma boy”. lol

  258. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Andy Ellis.

    Your condescending attitude to other Wingers is just SO obvious.

    Your continuing name-calling, eg “moonhowlers” has become tedious.

    I scroll by your longer “comments” but, occasionally, I find myself reading your shorter diatribes.

    Have you nothing new to suggest in the struggle for independence for our nation?

  259. Republicofscotland says:

    Re my 6.19pm.


    I should’ve added that the UK is especially close to Oman and its oppressive dictator Sultan Haitham, the successor to the very nasty Sultan Qaboos. Haitham has put down with an iron fist civilian demonstrations in Oman on corruption.

    Omani intelligence personnel are trained in the UK, and are said to very loyal to the UK after training, Omani generals own luxury house in England as well. Britain’s monarch invited Oman’s Royal Cavalry to perform at Windsor Castle last month as part of her platinum jubilee celebrations, with the regime’s crown prince, Sayyid Theyazin bin Haitham, sitting three seats away from her.

    Sir Erik Bennett, a UK military officer had exceptionally deep ties with the oppressive Omani regime and was very close to Sultam Qaboos both men are now dead. His (Bennett’s)real influence lay in Oman, where he spent three decades secretly advising its Sultan, Qaboos bin Said Al Said. He set up the Sultan’s Privy Council, a cabal of British politicians, generals and spy chiefs. It held annual late night meetings at a palace in Muscat.

    It was said that he had such deep ties in Oman that he was considered a white sultan. The UK has had relationships with many odious and oppressive ME regimes over the decades.

    Bennett help the oppressive regime set up a Privy Council, of which part of its remit was to keep the civilian population under control through fear and intimidation.

    These are the kind of people that the UK government/monarchy are in bed with.

  260. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Ellis (8.26) –

    Okay Andy, I’ll bite, just this once…

    I was really fuckin angry with Rev Stu for not telling us that certain words had been put on the block list. It shouldn’t have been down to Ruby to experiment to find out what words were banned.

    So far as I’m aware there is still no definitive list of terms that are not allowed. And that’s not right. It means that anyone, whether they’re newcomers or veterans, simply cannot know why a comment has been put into ‘moderation’. If Rev isn’t right on top of the insta-modded comments then they’re as good as ‘banned’ because the discussion carries on and there is nothing to alert readers to recently ‘freed’ comments.

    I have no problem with getting angry with Stu, and I’m quite sure he has no problem with it either. He’s an infuriating curmudgeonly fuck at times, and he knows it. It’s happened more than once and it’ll surely happen again if (as we all hope) this place emerges from its current stasis. What I won’t do – ever – is cherry-pick his many ‘controversial’ comments to find justification for blanket censorship of any and all comments relating to the franchise etc. You know full well what you’ve done on that score and so do we – it’s just opportunistic brown-nosing, pure and simple.

    At the risk of inflating your ego, I should confess that one of the reasons I did resume commenting was that I cannot thole the idea of a boring throbber like you cavorting on this place as if you own it. You don’t. And you never ever will. You crow about being a ‘founder member of Alba’ but haven’t – ever – made one positive suggestion as to how the party can make inroads. You claim to be educated to a doctorate level but use adolescent insults when referring to fellow commenters. You deride any and every reference to non-MSM sources of information while commenting on a site which is itself targetted by MSM ‘fact-checkers’ as a hub of ‘subversion’.

    I have just watched some footage of the AUOB march through Stirling earlier today. OMG, FFS, etc etc…

    Talk about ‘mixed messages’? I won’t go into details, otherwise, this comment may disappear into the ether. But you know what I’m on about, and so will anyone else who sees the same footage.

    Confusion reigns, and ‘that suits you sah’, eh?

  261. Republicofscotland says:

    Of course the UK government is in bed with the worst of the murderous regimes such as the oppressive apartheid military occupying force known as Israel which now has multiple arms manufacturing bases across England and Wales.

    Even after the UN issued more resolutions against Israel than any other country for its brutal treatment of the Palestinian people the UK government has placed orders for drones from the Israeli arms company known as Elbit which sometimes collaborates with the US arms company Thales in the UK.

    Elbit exports it weapons to Israel from the UK and believe it or not, the UK buys Israeli weapons (made at one of the multiple Elbit arms factories in the UK) that have been used on the Palestinian people to the MoD in the UK.

    The Israeli arms firm also services UK Royal airforce aircraft at UK air bases and on top of that Elbit even trains submarine crews in the UK.

    The Israeli arms manufacturer has such a deep access to MoD equipment that it can never actually truly call for Israel to do the right then when it comes to the badly oppressed Palestinian people.

    The more you know about Westminster/MoD the Royals the more you want to drop the British tag like a hot potato.

  262. Andy Ellis says:

    @Brian 9.16 pm

    Aw…I’m crushed. You see, if you read the comments, you might learn something instead of frantically clutching your pearls about me describing people who richly deserve the appelation moonhowlers. I always think it’s kind of amusng that grown men and women posting on this place of all others have a fit of the vapours at being called something as innocuous as a moonhowler.

    I mean I could be cunt-calling them every other post like some of their mates routinely do. That never seems to cause the slightest protest tho’…I wonder why? It’s almost as if there’s a double standard or something Brian, because the real abusers are on on “their” side perhaps…?

    How would you know if I had anything to suggest if you scroll past my posts? That makes no kind of sense.

    There isn’t anything new to suggest other than what I and others have been calling for: plebiscitary elections and taking down the SNP. I’ve explained why I don’t think “cunning plans for indy” will work, and have explained why. None of those suggesting the novel routes have come up with any convincing counter arguments. That’s no huge surprise, they and their equivalents failed to do it in response to the fisking Rev Stu gave on the franchise restriction issue. It’s the same MO.

    Put your big boy pants on Brian. Try engaging for a change instead of shooting the messenger, deflecting and fluffing for the moonhowlers eh?

  263. Republicofscotland says:

    One would be wrong in thinking that its just the UK government and the MoD that are on friendly terms with odious regimes.

    The head parasite of the royals the queen who had a body created in the 1970’s to hide her vast wealth from the UK public, she is the head of a family that has received more state benefits than everyone else put together period, and she receives a privy purse of tens of millions every year from the taxpayer, even in the worst of times this privy purse never goes down it only ever goes up.

    Anyway the queen has on at least three occasions accepted horses from oppressive regimes from Bahrain, Dubai and Azerbaijan. Of course it might be that the dictator of Azerbaijan who has allowed the UK firm BP to drill in the country for oil, (BP is a MI6 entry door to whichever country the oil company sets up in, the FCO has set up a consulate inside the BP offices at Baku and the SAS has trained the Azeri (Special forces) in the country) knows that the UK government and its royals will get into bed with anyone if there’s money to be made.

    Maybe that’s why the head ponce of the royal family the queen accepted the horse from the oppressive Azerbaijani regime. Mind you her son Prince Charles is often dispatched to Saudi Arabia a nasty oppressive dictatorship, to dance like a puppet for the Saudis in order to secure arms sales, they say a fish rots from the head down, the UK is rotting from the top and has been for a while now. Who’d want to be British I say.

  264. Andy Ellis says:

    @ Brotherhood of Bam 9.23 pm

    Paras 1-3: cry us a river. What a pathetic whingeing tosser you turned out to be. It triggers you and the other nativists that Rev Stu disagrees with you – and represents the vast majority of the movement. Nativism is and always will be a deeply regressive position. Same goes for those fluffing for Vlad and his orcs.

    Para 4: I’m as entitled to post as anyone else until and unless Rev Stu sees fit to ban me. Some folk agree with me, some don’t. Big whoop. I’ve never seen you contributing anything worthwhile, but then I can’t take conspiracy theory riddled fringe nutters seriously. Until I realised that was the kind of thing you honestly believed I’d thought you were relatively harmless. We all get it wrong sometimes.

    Why would I feel the necessity to discuss Alba with you or anyone else in here unless it particularly came up? There’s an Alba Edinburgh FB page I do contribute to. Luckily it’s private for CP members which screens out fringe nutters. Doubtless the members will come up with some ideas for progressing indy. FWIW if I and some of the others in the branch have anything to do with it, it won’t involve nativism, covidiocy and fluffing for Vlad, because they’d be as electorally popular as a pint of sick.

    I don’t claim to be educated to PhD level, it’s just a fact.

    Dry yer eyes about me calling people names. You come across like petulant wee girlie. I don’t blanket deride any source, nor do I uncritically accept what the MSM or anyone else says. I’ve got no illusions about how it works, just as I’ve no illusions about conspiracy theory BS and sub QAnon idiocy is spread. Sophomoric antifa woo-woo won’t persuade soft No voters to vote Yes.

    I’ve no idea what you’re on about WRT “mixed messages” and the AUOB march. Why would confusion suit me? Try to be a tad less delphic and folk might be able to interact with whatever it is your point is.

    I’m just as happy going back to ignoring you though. Seems like we mutually dodged a bullet when the Live Journal alternative to WoS failed to reach escape velocity: that was before I realised you were an a-scientific flat earther tho’!

  265. Republicofscotland says:

    How the bucket of shit UK establishment and its security service, and the USA’s Mike Pompeo conspired to remove Jeremy Corbyn from office as Labour leader.

  266. Al-Stuart says:

    Hi Breeks,

    All the best to tha wee dugs. No bad for one at 98 in human years.

    As for 2,000 YES marchers coming back to 20,000 I think that may happen IF we are lucky.

    Mind the 2014 IndyRef campaign? That electrified Scotland. Droves of folk who were NOT even interested in politics joined. Why?

    Because the 2014 IndyRef campaign was led by an honest leader. One of the greatest Statesmen Scotland has ever had. Alex Salmond ran an awesome campaign and got us so VERY close to winning YES at IndyRef1.

    Nowadays, people, especially thrawn Scots, can sniff out a fake squatter FM in Bute House. She’s a busted flush. Sturgeon is a YES March repellant. Hence most of the 20,000 staying at home and you seeing around 2,000.

    In America, Trump, LOST his power

    Since being booted from office and losing his bully-pulpit, slowly but surely the 6th January 2021 Inquiry into the attack on their Senate and Congress buildings are constructing a case for CRIMINAL proceedings with a custodial sentence against Trump et al. It will be plea-bargained down to a mega financial penalty and suspended prison sentence. But Trump will never see any political office again.


    Once she is booted out of Bute House, her power is gone. That is the end of her perversion of Scottish politics and the corruption of the Scottish Legal System.

    As for Pension Pete with PayPal Paul and their ilk harping on about Alba being insignificant and the WokeSNP being ALL POWERFUL governing Scotland…

    How many years did we send 3 to 6 SNP MPs down to Westminster?

    How many decades did LABOUR rule Scotland?

    Then the political tsunami happened. Alex Salmond’s inheritance to Tracttor Sturgeon was cashed in and VERY QUICKLY we basked in 59 SNP MPs.

    The END of the WokeSNP will come as fast and furious as that.


    The Scottish equivalent has started already.

    From professional knowledge and experience serving in uniform, I have witnessed the modus operandi of criminal perverts. Those that currently infest the WokeSNP.

    Yes there are many legitimate and DECENT minority groups. But as an old cop, I guarantee you this: the current WokeSNP are infested with middle-aged Derek Mackay MSPs chatting up school boys and Patrick Grady MPs groping young men when they are all pi55ed on cheap, taxpayer subsidised booze at the best club in London… Westminster-on-Woke.

    The Big Bang that will POLITICALLY IMPLODE Nicola’s cabal is when one of her chicks-with-dicks either rapes a biological woman in a safe space, or a chick-with-dick fiddles or worse a young underage girl.




    I am NOT discussing genuine transgender people. FFSS, one of my best friends went from male to female and the surgery was drastic. That is a REAL DSM-5-TR health issue. That’s the tragedy here. Genuine transgender people are having their pain highjacked by political careerists/opportunists.

    There are NO safety protocols in place to protect biological women and young girls and believe you me, I have handcuffed enough of these perverts and taken them up to Barlinnie to know how CLEVER AND MANIPULATIVE they really are.

    Tragically the time will come when Schoolboy fiddling Derek Mackay MSP will seem like child’s play to the UBER SCANDAL at WokeSNP waiting to break.

    Then the political arithmetic in Scotland shall invert and WokeSNP will become unelectable for many decades.

    The political danger is Nicola Sturgeon WILL hold IndyRef2 as she is hyping this time.

    Her agenda is to F7CK UP IndyRef2 and deliberately cause it to FAIL.

    Think about it? Scotland WILL NEVER GET A THIRD INDYREF.

    That my friends is the ENDGAME.

    Job done. UK-OK. Well deserved knighthoods to those who, on 19th September 2014 were tasked with the mission to completely discredit the SNP forever and end any risk ever again of the Union splitting.

  267. Effigy says:

    Just seen the news and Boris instructing the U.K. that they only have themselves to blame for
    continuing to discuss his grave errors in leadership like corruption, shagging, £230,000 for wallpaper, police being called as he restrained Carrie, Brexit disaster, mismanagement of Covid, highest ever taxation, 10% inflation, 5 mortgage rate rises in 7 months, millions using Foodbanks, energy bills to reach £3,000 per annum, £2 per litre diesel, nhs crisis, transport crisis, refugee crisis, etc

    Will you please stop picking on Boris as he is the best Westminster has and just wants to get more done in the U.K. from Ukraine, Rwanda and when in Germany tomorrow.

  268. James Che. says:

    Realisation that Britain is rotten while it is still standing is becoming obvious to many both sides of the border.
    Scotland is shadowing its footsteps pretty closely.

    We need to divert away from this destruction. The empire is no more. Its even ran out of soldiers to send for that other country to use according to the MOD.
    Never mind how will Scotland protect itself if they were independent,
    The UK has not got much left to defend Britain,
    It can hardly run to Europe or even the US as they have all sent their weapons on the heel of their countries finances.

    You have to ask why they have abandoned their own countries in favour of prolifiation of one country.
    Britain even dipped into their reserve funds and sent our tax money abroad, While our economy is crashing.

    So am beginning to wonder when all our leaders are going to re- site themselves to follow the money and armies.

  269. Mark Boyle says:

    Ian Brotherhood says:
    25 June, 2022 at 9:23 pm

    At the risk of inflating your ego, I should confess that one of the reasons I did resume commenting was that I cannot thole the idea of a boring throbber like you cavorting on this place as if you own it. You don’t. And you never ever will.

    Oh please Ian Brotherhood, you don’t dislike Andy Ellis because he’s acting like he owns the place.

    If that was your beef, why not Breastplate, Breeks, Twathater, JamesChe, Republic of Scotland and ESPECIALLY Ruby (who has gone remarkably quiet at the exact same time as Scott and a few other “regulars” who just happen to agree with everything she says) and their own series of novel length posts?

    Why not Peter A Bell, who arrogantly treats Comments as his personal advertisement board?

    No, you dislike Ellis, Mr “Brotherhood”, because you don’t agree with his point of view.

    At least be man enough to admit you like several others can’t take a differing opinion, and aren’t as far away from that wee shit Sturgeon in mindset as you like to kid yourselves you are.

    To give you an example of your immature “Bitch eating crackers” attitude to Andy Ellis, you said:

    You crow about being a ‘founder member of Alba’ but haven’t – ever – made one positive suggestion as to how the party can make inroads.

    How the fuck do YOU know he hasn’t made any positive suggestion as to how the party can make inroads?

    You don’t, do you? It’s just snide supposition.

    Did it cross your mind for one second that this is the LAST place in the world he’d do so rather than doing so directly with his own party?

    Blurting out ideas in public is one thing you don’t do in any serious party not comprised of utter morons, even less so if you are at the bottom of the food chain electorally and every novel idea could easily be for other parties to pinch and use first – something ISP cries and whines about thrice before cockcrow (“Waaah! Alba stole that from us! I’m telling teacher!”) without learning the “well, DUH!” lesson of learning to STFU and keep one’s powder dry from it.

    Or for that matter, for other parties to take countermeasures against, especially the SNP.

    But no, your approach, like that of several others is the very thing you accuse Andy Ellis of – ad hominem attacks.

    As I’ve said before, I don’t agree with everything Andy said, same as for anyone else. But it’s not his problem some of you are so fixated on your own pet hobby horses – and the litany of quick fix solutions to the miasma the independence movement finds itself in – that your knee jerk reaction to any evidence or opinion to the contrary is “UNIONIST PLANT!”

    I just wish some of you showed even a fraction of your venom towards scum like Scotland In Union and the real enemy outside instead of those on your own side like bloody latter day Cameronians fixated on the holy writ of your own message and blind to the counter-productivity of your ways.

  270. Ian Brotherhood says:

    In years to come, when the authoritative history of this site is written, the nadir will be identified as ‘The Ellis Period’ i.e. those years spanning Covid and ‘the war’ during which pure Doublethink was projected and reinforced via the basest propaganda methods.

    The central cause which inspired this site, and drew phenomenal support from ordinary Scots, cannot be damaged by ‘big’ politics, names, characters etc. It can only be undone from within i.e. by bad actors who sow division and doubt.

    We have to shake them off, as a dog sheds fleas.

    So, as Dorothy Devine has asked, repeatedly, let’s make a start by blanking Ellis. If Stu won’t do it, fair enough, but we can.

  271. Breastplate says:

    Mark Boyle,
    That sounds intriguing.
    Who’s “the real enemy”?

  272. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Mark Boyle –

    Who are you, Ellis’s bitch?

    (Just for the record, I’ve never called Ellis a plant or agent. But he is a boring annoying pedantic fanny. That’s just in my opinion, of course…)

  273. Christopher Quinn says:

    Change must come…

  274. Ian Brotherhood says:

    To all ‘real’ Wingers – sorry for being grumpy tonight but I’m just fed up with these throbbers.

    Tomorrow is another day!


  275. Saffron Robe says:

    No need to apologise, Ian, we all feel the same. The best thing to do is to ignore them. Post your comments as you see fit and just engage with those you know to be on the same wavelength. We all know who the handful of Unionist agitators are, no matter how much they may protest otherwise. They thrive on the interaction because it allows them to act as bullies and commandeer the comments. Ignore them and their impetus will quickly diminish. It won’t stop them altogether, however, because judging by the amount of drivel regurgitated from the mainstream media some of them must be on a penny a word!

  276. twathater says:

    Well said Saffron and Ian B what hurts these dobbers most is being ignored

  277. Breeks says:

    Good Lord. I missed this. Cringeworthy beyond belief. This is the person going free Scotland from Westminster’s grip eh? Blowhard Blackford, the person who sacked Joanna Cherry because she wasn’t a team player. Now we’re beginning to see what being on the team means.

    As for Grady, he must have dirt on influential people.

    We need a united YES movement, but dear god, I have such contempt for wretches. How can the unity happen?

  278. Robert Hughes says:

    Ian B

    A single one of your comments is worth more than the collected trite , * fact checked * ( fat chequed ) received opinions of He Who Must Be Ignored .He must be getting paid by the word , it takes longer each time to scroll past his witterings

  279. Mark Boyle says:

    Ian Brotherhood says:
    25 June, 2022 at 11:47 pm

    @Mark Boyle –

    Who are you, Ellis’s bitch?

    And this reply just about sums you (and several others up) – sad little manchilds seeking relevance for whom lording it over a blog – which has run up more “closing down sale” notices then even the old Queensway Carpets managed – is the highlight of their sorry lives, and who find anyone challenging their world view too threatening to cope with.

    If you, and others, find Ellis too much for your fragile egos to take, it’s long overdue the time you had a wee word wi’ yourselves.

    The hard, brutal fact he’s the one more likely to write a piece on Scottish nationalism and the quest for independence that a reputable publisher would print (as opposed to the array of Mickey Mouse “free press” glorified fanzines) and get under the skins of the thousands whose opinions need to be changed radically if we are not going to be stuck in Sturgeonland for the next decade (and in all likelihood the SNP finished thereafter).

    So with respect, he’s a lot more bloody valuable to Scottish nationalism than the likes of you, Breeks, Twathater and the rest of the internet alias clown car, trundling in here day after tortuous day, honking your horns thinking novel length posts of the same broken records, peppered with parroted “Wha’s Liks Us! See You Jimmy!” slogans – “Scots are sovereign! Scots are sovereign! Polly wants a shortbread! Waaark!” and TYPING IN CAPITAL LETTERS LIKE SOCIALIST WORKERS is achieving anything other than making this place look like a Tartan version of Stormfront right down to the teen novel worthy silly conspiracy theories.

    Who am I? With respect, someone probably a lot better known out there to the general public than a failed author like you – but then wishing for public recognition is something most of us grow out of certainly by their twenties anyway …

    Breastplate says:
    25 June, 2022 at 11:41 pm

    Mark Boyle,
    That sounds intriguing.
    Who’s “the real enemy”?

    The bloody unionists, of course!

  280. Willie says:

    It would not surprise me to learn that the SNP is riven with dark sexual secrets.

    Sexual indiscretions from the modestly inoffensive leer or sleazy comment to the gravest of sexual abuse are all tools used by the establishment security services to influence or destroy individuals, their parties or movements.

    Exposure and amplification in the media of a minor sexual indiscretion is often sufficient to undermine a politician whilst more serious allegations can utterly destroy, And or have an individual jailed. Often utterly innocent these are tried and tested strategies deployed by the British Establishment running back centuries and used in colonies around the world.

    But more insidious is the power to be exercised by having the knowledge and detail of sexual indiscretion. Such knowledge is absolute power as a tool to bend politicians to do the will of those who could expose them, ruin them, should they not do as required.

    Most folks are broadly aware of the honey trap where women traditionally were utilizedcto gain information, or later for their relationship to be exposed to discredit. But it goes deeper, much deeper than that.

    Consider therefore the power of the knowledge of a paedophile ring. Not difficult to imagine the power to be exercised by the ring master in being able to influence and control members. Indeed, there was a reported paedophile ring said to exist at the heart of Mrs Thatcher’s Government. If accurate, one can only imagine the power that could be exercised with the right knowledge. And of course there have been many sex scandals before that. Lord Boothby of the rent boys and glass table defecation parties of the 60s was well known to the security services but allowed to proceed unimpeded.

    The Russians call it Kompromat and it is alive and kicking in the UK. That is without doubt and with the 2014 referendum having run the union closer than folks may realise it think it goes without saying that kompromat is very much alive and active in Scotland.

    Salmond on trumped up charges. But what about the two MPs exposed for having an affair with the same woman. Or Derek Mackay ruined through the exposure of his interests in a young boy. These are out in the open. But what of the rumours about Sturgeon being protected with super injunctions in place to hide murky behaviour best kept secret. or what of her husband. 0r what of potentially many other politicians and their behaviours. Lonely nights alone in a London Miles away from home one wonders how many MPs could be entrapped into compromising situations.

    And therein potentially lies the method by which in our particular case the current SNP leadership has gone soft and now may even seek to undermine independence. It’s a dirty business trying to gain freedom from a country like the UK. Understand that, and you will understand a lot about the world around us.

    But you know what, colony after colony around the world gained their freedom and Scotland will too.

  281. Breeks says:

    Says it all really. 30th AUOB march at Bannockburn by hardcore Independence Supporters, some of them too old and infirm to be marching 4 miles in the sun, but try telling them. Everybody desperate for a free Scotland.

    Sturgeon the “leader” of the SNP is 40 miles away taking selfies at a fair in Glasgow.

    Yeayyyy! Let’s hear it for unity and solidarity in the YES movement.

  282. Dan says:

    @ Dorothy D

    Well, you get 10 out of 10 for your sundancing efforts to keep the rain away!
    Rode 150 and miles through some very bonnie Scottish countryside and barely a drop of precipitation hit my visor over the day.
    There was a good turnout of what must have been close to 100 bikes, but the number of marchers was reduced from previous Stirling march pre covid where many coach loads full of folk were bussed in by Yes groups from all over the country.
    With all that Scotland has and continues to been put through in recent years, you’d think if we had a switched on electorate and a leader worth following the numbers attending would be significantly higher.
    Mind those post “Brexit” pre Covid Glasgow and Edinburgh marches with close to 100k rocking up. I reckon it’s just Grand old Duke of York syndrome kicking in due to lack of meaningful progress and other un-unifying exploits by the Indy “leadership.

    @ Ian B

    Haha, when I arrived at the Bannockburn site I joked about going up to the food stall and asking for an egg… uncooked… to “Jim Murphy” Mr Smith as a reward for his services in unifying the Indy movement.

  283. Andy Ellis says:

    @Mark Boyle 11.23 pm

    Thanks for the support. Good to know there are still some other adults in the room to dilute the rantings of the petulant children and moonhowlers who appear to think they own the place.

    It’s passing strange isn’t it that in the end, what Brotherhood of Bam and those who think like him actually want is an echo chamber, not a place to discuss issues and stress test whether or not they are true or have any support in the movement?

    How often have they been challenged to produce actual evidence to support their woo-woo worldviews and suggested policies, whether on nativist franchise restriction, or “cunning plans for indy”? All we get treated to are endless barely literate posts from James Che about 300 year old treaties, assurances that we don’t need a referendum or plebiscitary election and will be wafted to the sunny uplands of independence on the back of the Claim of Right, a few AUOB marches and some strong tutting, penetrating looks and folding our arms.

    If these folk weren’t so pathetic they’d be funny. Nary a one has ever refuted Rev Stu’s original fisking of the regressive nativist plan to disenfranchise 20% of Scots who voted in 2014 and it absolutely triggers them if you bring it up. All they have in response is parroting the “Scotland as colony” schtick as gospel. Again, when you ask them if the UN, any international agency or any experts in constitutional history, international law, political science and international relations theory accept their position that we’re in a de-colonisation situation…? Tumbleweed.

    Why do you think they (again) failed to respond to Rev Stu’s queries about “cunning plans for indy”? He asked the same kind of questions many of us have been asking about who is organising these General/National Assemblies, who decides who is a member, pays for it, and how it demonstrates a majority and secures international recognition.

    All these unreasoning fools are really interested in is talking amongst themselves: it’s a moonhowlers circle jerk, which spends more time othering and attacking those who dare to disagreee with them, reminiscing about the auld days and discussing flegs and marches, and building fanciful Castles in Spain about achieving independence without doing the actual work necessary to build a majority.

    They have more in common with britnats and loyalists than they’d care to admit, and about as much popular support.

  284. Dorothy Devine says:

    Ian Grumpy Brotherhood, there are a few others who could do with blanking too – partners in crime as it were!

    Dan , delighted there were no wet roads and that Scotland was looking awfy bonnie. I worry when it’s wet because dirty great holes in the roads are hidden from a bikers view and can bring disaster.

    P.S I have been a fan of Native Americans since I road a trike , and my sundance is Cherokee.

  285. Chas says:

    Andy Ellis/Mark Boyle

    I am in agreement with both of you.

    It appears that if you are not a member of The Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade, with their warped views about how Independence will be achieved, then you are somehow a Unionist plant!!

    At one end of ‘The Independence’ spectrum there is the SNP cult/sheep who simply believe all they are told by Sturgeon and her acolytes, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Slighter higher up the line, there are those, numerous of them populate this site, with their imaginary plans and routes to achieve the goal-none of which have even a passing glance at reality. At the upper end of the spectrum we find the the individuals who are prepared to ask the awkward questions like ‘How, Where, When, Who’. Those further down the line cannot and will not accept that questions have to be asked and ANSWERED satisfactorily, with some evidence to back it up. Everything to them is so unfair and has to be rectified somehow. By magic, if necessary.

    Those at the lower end of the scale refuse to accept that the vote was lost in 2014 because simply not enough of the electorate were convinced to vote YES. False conspiracy theories abound.

    As I write this I understand that the ‘No’ camp in Scotland still outweighs the ‘Yes’47%-53%. What is the Yes camp doing or proposing to do to get individuals to switch? Sturgeon is supposedly going to outline the way forward on the economic/financial front on Tuesday. I await with interest, but, in all honesty, expect more questions will be raised rather than answered. I simply do not trust the SNP with money! Can you wonder why?

    One thing is crystal clear in my mind is that Sturgeon is not the one who will lead Scotland to Independence. It is not even evident if she even wants it! However, she is astute enough to know that if she pursues a second referendum and loses it, she is finished. Maybe best to string the punters along, again, find a reason not to hold one and let the gravy train continue.
    She is in a very difficult position-all of her own making.

  286. PacMan says:

    Breeks says: 26 June, 2022 at 3:48 am

    Good Lord. I missed this. Cringeworthy beyond belief. This is the person going free Scotland from Westminster’s grip eh? Blowhard Blackford, the person who sacked Joanna Cherry because she wasn’t a team player. Now we’re beginning to see what being on the team means.

    As for Grady, he must have dirt on influential people.

    We need a united YES movement, but dear god, I have such contempt for wretches. How can the unity happen?

    The interview gives a clear insight on the procedural handling of complaints where there are over-complicated mechanisms and multiple individuals that the complainer has to deal with. There is not one person taking the personal responsibility for the complainer.

    It is a system where each one involved in the complaints process has a hands-off approach where they can pass the buck towards an other. As Ian Blackford says, he has a duty of responsibility to all the SNP MP’s and staff which includes both parties.

    It’s an all too convenient system that allows abuse to flourish.

    With the current focus on the RMT strike where the union is standing up for it’s individual members rights, it may be advisable for people involved in the Westminster to unionise themselves to protect them from such abuses?

  287. Robert Hughes says:

    ” Mind those post “Brexit” pre Covid Glasgow and Edinburgh marches with close to 100k rocking up. I reckon it’s just Grand old Duke of York syndrome kicking in due to lack of meaningful progress and other un-unifying exploits by the Indy “leadership.”

    That’s almost certainly the case Dan . Good on yourself and all those who made the effort , but those drastically depleted numbers speak for themselves .

    That the fannies in the SNP Independence Industry , who’ve ignored , disdained and demeaned the broader Movement for years , now think deigning to grace AUOB events with their presence can compensate for these years of neglect merely shows how out of touch they are with the mood of the YES support .

    If they had anything resembling honour and genuine commitment to Independence they would fuck right off to Fuck and take that walking disaster zone Sturgeon with them : and when the reach Fuck , keep going until they cross the border into Obscurity .

    They won’t of course ; still rivers of gravy to be dredged for the Elect and a meaningless , arse-saving ( she imagines ) Referendumb to * win * .

    They’ve gutted the Independence Movement , gorged and bloated themselves on it’s once dynamic energy . The only question now is if the dis-ease is terminal .

    Innate optimism says NO , it isn’t. But will require radical surgery to survive . Sharpen the scalpels

  288. PacMan says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood

    I agree with Dorothy Devine and just blank them.

    I’m quite happy to debate with people who have alternative views than me. In fact, I encourage it as it gives me a fresh perspective on subjects and yes, can prove me wrong on some things that I had taken for granted.

    However, there is no point interacting with certain individuals on here as they have nothing positive, constructive and alternative view on offer.

  289. PacMan says:

    I know it’s wishful thinking but after her recent networking jaunt to Italy, it would be good if Nicola Sturgeon’s big announcement on Tuesday was that she is quitting forthwith and moving out of the country to do some cushy overseas highly paid non-job.

  290. Republicofscotland says:

    I still say Sturgeon is looking for an out route when her indyref road next year leads to nothing material happening. I’m confident that someone of her ilk will become the new SNP leader and again fob us off with indy carrots for years to come.

    I’m also of the mindset that we need to make sure that the 2024 GE is a plebiscitary one, this gives us a wee bit of time to keep pushing for it and keep in the limelight on social media.

    I posted this link before, and I think its significant.

    “Sturgeon will deny it strenuously if asked, but she is scanning the horizon for her next career move, and it may well come sooner than we think. She has boxed herself into a corner over a second independence referendum. Even if she holds an “advisory” poll next October and it returns a narrow majority for leaving the UK, it will be a pyrrhic victory. It’s nothing more than a glorified opinion poll.

    But it would give Sturgeon an escape route before the 2026 Holyrood elections. Having secured a “yes” vote of sorts, she could hand over the reins of power to whoever is left standing in the SNP. And if a second referendum fails to materialise, or she loses the vote, she will be forced to quit anyway.”

  291. James Che. says:

    Wished we could have been there yesterday to push up the numbers, however to far to travel though for partner with cancer.
    Somedays their just to tired to go passed the garden gate,

    Still I think the numbers are still around, if anything there are perhaps more sitting waiting than 2014, due to people realising how degenerate all of britain has become in general. Those that have perhaps moved to Scotland recently are already aware that down south ain’t a great place to be anymore.
    However there is a big difference between joining us and taking over. The last smacks of ole empire taking over the natives,
    Shuddering at how that history went for their locals.

  292. Ottomanboi says:

    The United Kingdom stands solid against «you know who»
    However, who’s the bigger threat?

  293. James Che. says:

    Does the referendum wording and perhaps a plebecite election get boxed in by the wording and approach of the Scottish government?

  294. robbo says:

    P Grady to step away from being a SNP MP. An allegation of sexual assault has been lodged online by the victim of sexual incident back in 2016.

    Well well.

  295. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @James Che (10.51) –

    Sorry to hear about your partner.


  296. James Che. says:


    And here’s the Scots who voted no last time thinking that they loved us, that they would save our pensions, and would create employment in Scotland building ships, save our oil rig workers etc.

    And really they were just thinking of themselves and where to park their nuclear weapons.
    So Scotland is a good base to practice war from. No positives to deter us from wanting Scottish independence then.

  297. sarah says:

    Alyn Smith: Are we too critical of him?

    At Bannockburn yesterday Alyn Smith said all the right things: all get together; must unite for independence. He was applauded.

    Just after this speech, David Henry asked him if he would like to come to the Scottish Sovereignty Research Group’s conference. Alyn said “No absolutely not never”.

    So no, we are not being too critical. Alyn Smith really is a duplicitous b…..

  298. James Che. says:

    Ian Brotherhood.

    Thanks Ian, it can be a lonely road for cancer patients
    and I happen to have two in my family at the moment.

    So when I go silent on here for a few hours or day or two, it is not due to the crazy stupid reasons Mark Boyle gives, but simply the realities of Cancer

  299. James Che. says:

    Aye it is easy for the likes of him to talk the talk with no effort. But walk that walk.

    No he jumps on the band wagon and then tries grabs the reins to control which road the band wagon should travel.

  300. Republicofscotland says:


    Y’know in my mind the press just plays one big game with the people in Scotland when they attack Sturgeon, I think its all for show and they know fine well whose side Sturgeon is on when it comes to breaking up the union, they just have to give off the appearance that they don’t.

    A dead giveaway in recent times was when Sturgeon called for Nato air superiority over country 404, thus knowing that would lead to a full scale conflict and possibly the use of nuclear weapons. Some call for someone who is supposedly against nuclear weapons in Scotland and whose party in years gone by only just vote for an indy Scotland remaining in Nato.

    The same game is played out daily between the SNP and the Tory party/Johnson, the SNP bewail the Tories nastiness for our benefit and to endear us to them, but when you look at the state Scotland is in under Sturgeon’s tenure as SNP FM its clear that she says one thing but in reality does another, Brexit being a prime example.

    Sturgeon talks a lot on dissolving the union, but that’s all it is she’s not the leader that will take us out of this union.

  301. Breeks says:

    PacMan says:
    26 June, 2022 at 10:37 am

    … it would be good if Nicola Sturgeon’s big announcement on Tuesday was that she is quitting forthwith and moving out of the country….

    Amen to that. 😉

  302. Breeks says:

    sarah says:
    26 June, 2022 at 11:21 am

    …Just after this speech, David Henry asked him if he would like to come to the Scottish Sovereignty Research Group’s conference. Alyn said “No absolutely not never”.

    Thing is, the SSRG is looking at the options, without necessarily committing to any of them. The ‘R’ is for research; research to help people make informed decisions. To distance yourself like that from the SSRG is simply blinkered, – essentially to condemn a book before you’ve even read it.

  303. James Che. says:

    If NS’s history is anything to go by to judge wether she will leave.

    No nuclear weapons, but lets ramp up war for nato.
    Lets us have a mandate for independence, whats this I cant use all those mandates,
    I am stepping down and back from the SNP, oh no I am not. says she.

  304. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Does anyone have ‘official’ turnout for the AUOB yesterday?

  305. James says:

    See the three arses (“Ellis/Boyle/Chas”) are all on here congratulating each other now….jesus wept.

    Re. the march numbers – don’t forget there are no trains running today, that will have stopped many (including us) from being there…..

  306. James Che. says:

    When we witness all these negatives above, it is like a cloud full of the heavy rain psychology.

    But the march yesterday brought out the sunshine with it.
    And Scotlands determination to chose its own future will bring many more.

  307. Ron Maclean says:

    You don’t have to go beyond this site to see daily attempts at shutting down debate and democracy. There are several small-time obnoxious blowhards frequenting the site who epitomise the Scottish cringe. These scaremongering losers will never support any fact, vision, plan or determinant which might help move Scotland towards independence. They demonstrate their allegiance daily for all to see. It appears we have to give them a berth but, please, make sure it’s a wide one.

  308. Mark Boyle says:

    James Che. says:
    26 June, 2022 at 11:23 am

    Thanks Ian, it can be a lonely road for cancer patients
    and I happen to have two in my family at the moment.

    So when I go silent on here for a few hours or day or two, it is not due to the crazy stupid reasons Mark Boyle gives, but simply the realities of Cancer.

    And yet James you have made 21 posts on this thread alone totally over two thousand words (at least, under that name you have …) whereas this is only my eleventh post. Wish I had your “time” to spare!

    BTW, using real life issues – never mind cancer – as an excuse to have a pop at someone daring to disagree with you is about as low as you can scrape – even by your standards.

  309. Ottomanboi says:

    Scotland is «useful» just about sums up the Union.
    For what, to whom is all in the none to subtle detail of an unhealthy relationship.
    Throughout recorded history the «auld enemie» has always acted true to self interested form with hubris and hypocrisy in equal measure and Johnson is its psychological avatar.
    The notion of the enemy of my enemy being a possible friend applies.

  310. Breeks says:

    Ian Brotherhood says:
    26 June, 2022 at 12:03 pm

    Does anyone have ‘official’ turnout for the AUOB yesterday?

    They said 2000 over the tannoy, but I’d have guessed a wee bit more. Takes about 6 mins to pass.

    But 2k or 3k, we really need to see 20k, 40k, and 100k at the big ones.

    Yesterday there was an arse from the Manky Jaiket’s crew who latched on to the March at the rear and carried his Union Jack for a bit. Don’t know if he was trying to provoke something, but he had a cop right beside him… and suddenly he was gone. Not arrested I don’t think, he just took the hint and went away.

    Point is, a 2K person march is a lot less impressive, (or intimidating depending on your perspective ), than 20k or better. A big march also gives the people marching a lot more confidence too.

    If you can get to these marches, do it. If in doubt, just go.

    Our MP’s and MSP’s should do likewise… Not expecting to be treated like stars or celebrities, but an Indy March should be a recognised day at work for them. Get a Saltire in your mitt, and a megaphone in the other, and start at least pretending they want Independence.

    That’s me carrying the wee dug at 5:12… (He wasn’t in distress by the way, I absolutely promise. He’s my bestest wee pal, and I know when he’s had enough. A senior veteran in the Independence Campaign just deserves to take it easy and get a wee rest and a carry sometimes).

  311. Dan says:

    @ Ian B at 12:03pm

    Don’t know official figures but IndependenceLive twitter feed has a 1min (sped up) clip of the marchers from front to back which does show it really wasn’t that big of a turnout for the march.
    But factors such as cost of living increases and folk finally catching up with other social activities after 2 years of covid restrictions, along with general political scunneredment will have played a part in the smaller turnout.

    As Breeks (and dugs) has already hinted, the Stirling march route can be quite a challenge for folk with ailments and disabilities, so some folk just attend the Bannockburn site rather than complete the entire walk.
    NB. That said acknowledgement must be made to some impaired individuals who still made the considerable effort to attend or complete the march, so much admiration and appreciation to them and those that aide such individuals.

    I had half a dozen folk that would have been new AUOB attendees and become new YES Bikers yesterday if they hadn’t had wedding / motorbike racing / house moves to attend or deal with.
    In the end only one (and a Winger to boot) of the half dozen could attend, and at one point during the run they even ended up leading the entire pack of YES Bikers as the lead organisers pulled over to address a matter! A bit of pressure and baptism of fire dually rewarded with YES Bikers sticker.

    Here’s a clip of the YES Bikers.

  312. Andy Ellis says:

    @Chas 10.22 am

    I see they’re still at it. I love how they continually bloviate about ignoring those with the temerity to disagree with their worldview, and promote blanking them or “just scrolling on by”, then spend at least half their energy furiously denouncing me, Mark Boyle, John Main, you and anyone else who points out that the Emperor of Woo-woo has no clothes.

    I’m beginning to join the dots too that the multiple (invariably anonymous) such accounts with a penchant for othering and cunt-calling seem often seem to appear and disappear at the same time. Of course such tactics were what we saw used by yoons against “cybernats” during indyref1, but it’s telling that a small coterie purportedly in our own movement have no qualms about using them against those they disagree with – but lack the wit to engage with – in here and elsewhere.

    Pac Man for example @ 10.32 am above says on the one hand he’s:

    “happy to debate with people who have alternative views than me. In fact, I encourage it as it gives me a fresh perspective on subjects”;

    before quickly following up with:

    “However there is no point interacting with certain individuals on here as they have nothing positive, constructive and alternative view on offer”.

    So what he actually wants is an echo chamber to endlessly discuss the positive, constructive, alternative views they and their mates offer?

    How to move the goalposts and disenfranchise 20% of Scots without looking like blood and soil nationalists?

    How to gain independence without a referendum or plebiscitary election because *300 year old treaties / we’re special / Claim of Right / Declaration of Arbroath / the rules don’t apply to us ya bass!*?

    How to convince >50% of the population to support independence when your worldview is so sophomirically simplistic it would make Wolfie Smith blush?

    How’s that going I wonder? 2,000 attendees at the AUOB march, many of whom presumably still support the SNP and absolute rockets like Alyn Smith. Support for indy more or less where it has been for the past 8 years, irrespective of brexit and the current economic downturn. Strange that folk haven’t been flocking to the “positve, contructive, alternative” views proposed by the woo-woo clan in here eh?

    You’d imagine that these “cunning plans for indy” that promise a short cut out of this shit show would have a fair bit of traction, but so far…? Zero, zip, zilch, nada. Why, it’s almost as if these cunning plans have no political hinterland, no visible means of intellectual support.

  313. Breeks says:

    Mark Boyle says:
    26 June, 2022 at 12:36 pm

    BTW, using real life issues – never mind cancer – as an excuse to have a pop at someone…


  314. James Che. says:

    Mark boyle.

    Cancer is never an excuse, tell that to cancer patients you heartless …….

    And anyone whom cares for them at home is often at home for most of the day, if other chores have to be done that your partner cannot and mother in my case cannot manage.

    I have never known anyone so callous as yourself towards cancer patients and carers for the sake of scoring points.

    Sincerely shame on you and you’re upbringing.

  315. James Che. says:

    Mark boyle.

    Just to give you ignorance some expansion, my partner has Ascending Colon Cancer.
    And my mother has a cancer growth in her lower stomach that roughly once a month grows and then bursts causing her to bleed out excessively, we never know which day is her last.

    I do not want your kind sympathy, you backward moron, but Every CANCER PATIENT and their carers deserve some respect for what they deal with every day.

  316. James Che. says:

    Syupid fu..king cu..t

  317. Hatuey says:

    On the general subject of the role of the grassroots, AUOB, etc., I thought it was interesting that no mention of creating a new YES campaign was mentioned at the historical joint press conference last week…

    Lesley Riddock in a recent podcast broached the matter and confirmed my suspicion; this referendum was to be a party political affair, with Nicola firmly in control of everything.

    I understand that Lesley has bills to pay like the rest of us, but we can’t buy that.

    The real reason there’s no plans for a Yes campaign is because we won’t need one; there isn’t going to be a referendum.

    And that’s the same sort of reason that the grassroots has been marginalised and held at arms length by the Sturgeon regime since day one.

    In the background, Scotland’s oil and wealth is being extracted like never before. The people of Scotland should be mulling over what they might do with the vast profits their resources are generating right now — should we invest in hospitals, schools, or industry? — but instead are staring a future of poverty, uncertainty, and hopelessness.

    As for the arguments and exchanges on here, I think you should all simply commit to staying away from personal attacks and concentrate on making good arguments. If you did that, it would be useful and healthy.

  318. James Che. says:

    Andy Ellis.

    I can except you have your opinions and we mostly have ours,
    I can deal or not deal with your particular views, each to their own,
    But in this regard I hold you in much higher esteem than that stupid heartless cold hearted mark boyle whom seems to think cancer is a joke or a weapon to be used for point scoring.

    You have never sank so low as that, respect to you.

  319. James Che. says:

    Now you know i am angry at one particular persons ignorance towards cancer.
    Because was raised not to swear if it can be helped,
    Parents always said there are plenty of other words to chose from.

    But sometime……sometimes you come across morons who never seem to be in life, just skimming the surface looking to fight,

  320. Dorothy Devine says:

    Bikers looked great – thanks!

  321. Republicofscotland says:

    I see Clarence House is bending over backwards to make excuses for Prince Charles who walked out of the UK friendly oppressive regime known as Qatar with around a million quid in a suitcase.

    Who else apart for the parasitic royals could come into the UK with a million quid in a suitcase from a dodgy regime and not be stopped and end up in court, like I said last night the poncing self serving parasitic royals will do anything for money, they are part of what ails the greedy I’m alright Jack UK society.

  322. James Che. says:


    Nice to hear your thoughts,

    You are perhaps nearer to the mark than you think, it would seem that the SNP have suddenly become aware that the yes movement are trying to find ways to by-pass the actual hold up the Snp have created, hence the sudden appearance of Mr smith, while NS making new carrot promise noises.

    I did notice a few Snp supporters perhaps shipped in to back up Mr Smith.
    The thought occurred that the snp just realised that they are rudderless without the grassroots, SSRG, AOUB etc and that most of us were lost to them when they attack AS.

    But in general most believe that boat sailed by ages ago.

  323. Republicofscotland says:

    Patrick Grady is stepping away from his SNP membership while police investigate allegations of sexual harassment against him. The “alleged” sex pest will stand in the House of Commons as an independent.

    “Officers will now be making inquiries, including contacting the alleged victim, in order to assess what further action is required.”

    I say that fat useless turd Ian Blackford should resign for attempting to force other troughing SNP MPs to get around Grady and support him.

  324. James Che. says:

    Dorothy devine,

    I think one of my sisters was aiming to go on her trike, she is relatively new to the Yes movement,
    Compared to this old hat.
    But quite gains are happening.

  325. Willie says:

    For the life of me I do not understand why the automatic moderator is set to replace the word ("Tractor" - Ed) with tractor.

    The word ("Tractor" - Ed) is defined as someone who betrays a cause or a principle. Usually such betrayal is in a treacherous way.

    It is without wishing to cause a bonfire as you once put it Rev, an appropriate word. It describes exactly how certain politicians can surreptitiously play for the other side. I mention this simply because I saw in an earlier post the insertion of tractor into what was I thought a perfectly reasonable comment.

    Maybe of course the censoring of the word has been done in the utmost good faith to keep good order. I can understand that. But moving on, what is more difficult to understand is the automatic deletion of any blog where there is a reference to a certain European country currently at war.

    Has wing been issued a D notice I wonder, or an equivalent thereof.

    But aside, great to see Wings, even in its limited form continuing. I’m sure it’s continuing to be read by all sorts.

  326. Ottomanboi says:

    I wonder which would be given more credence an AUOB with flags etc or an AUOB in this mode…
    There are doors that no matter how hard pushed do not yield without the application of judicious brute force.

    «No one is born brave; he becomes brave, given the right leadership»
    Archbishop Makarios III of Cyprus.
    I would add, and the right cause.

  327. Andy Ellis says:

    @James Che 2.22 pm

    You and your moonhowling mates mostly sat on your hands as the worst offenders in here were othering the folk in here they disagreed with, Ruby cunt-calling me every chance she got or creepy as fuck individuals like Scott stalking me on line and bringing my daughter in to his weird online obsession, plus the routine abuse about any of us daring to disagree being agents for the britnats, Sturgeonista stooges and not “real” independence supporters.

    You’re not above snidey implications yourself from memory James, even if you do quickly backtrack when confronted or claim not to have been talking to anyone in particular.

    I never once saw or heard you calling them out James. As far as I’m concerned you’re in no position to take the moral high ground, you’re very much part of the problem, not part of the solution.

  328. Republicofscotland says:

    How Alyn Smith was allowed to speak at the AUOB Bannockburn get together is beyond me, he’s about as interested in Scottish independence as Prince Andrew is about meeting the FBI to talk about the suicided Jeffery Epstein and his relationship with his best buddy.

    Smith is a member of The Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China, its a U.S. led effort to organise worsened relations between U.S. allies and the People’s Republic of China, to secure continued hegemony.

    Smith’s partner in crime is the Russophobe and Sinophobe Stewart McDonald he is also a member, as is Helena Kennedy and Ian Duncan Smith, as well as David Davis and Tim Farron, and that lovely woman (not) Esther McVey, not forgetting Owen Paterson.

  329. Andy Ellis says:

    @Hatuey 2.18 pm

    I agree with you that there isn’t going to be a referendum. With luck we may prevail upon the rank and file SNP to line up behind plebiscitary elections in time for HR2026 elections, as by then they’l have realised they’ve been had. If so, I’m not sure it really matters all that much if there is a 2014 style non-party Yes movement as such?

    All we need to ensure is that all the pro-independence parties are signed up to a cast iron guarantee that they regard EVERY general election in future as a de facto plebiscite, with 50% + 1 voting for pro independence parties representing an automatic declaration of independence.

    As for “friendly fire” in the movement and in this place in particular……I think it’s vanishingly unlikely that the 2012-14 “Big Tent” will be getting taken out of mothballs and re-erected. If the past year or so has shown us anything it is that there are some in the movement I wouldn’t cross the road to piss on if they were on fire. I don’t care if they have the same ultimate destination, I have no desire to campaign shoulder to shoulder with them, any more than I’d campaign shoulder to shoulder with a convinced unionist because we happened to agree on particular social issues. or with a Tory because they held similar views to mine on GRA and TRA’s.

  330. Ottomanboi says:

    All in a days «philandering» in the Madame of All Parliaments.
    All those late nights, such stamina, such selfless duty to the nation…

  331. Dan says:

    @ Dot D

    Sigh and soz… Blooming smartphones ain’t so smart if they hide the date of a vid and makes some dunce post a link to a previous Stirling bike run from years back… 🙁

    The YES Bikers’ Facebook page has a couple of vids and a gallery of pics at top of feed if folk want a nosey to more current times.
    Though after seeing a couple of pics and now that we can go out without covid masks, I need to find the motivation to get a makeover haircut and that tooth fixed that I broke eating a bit of brie cheese of all things.
    I’m still rocking the Zoolander “Derelicte” look. 🙂

    Currently enduring mild mourning and going to have to crack open a sedative beer, as after managing to keep it in my possession since 2014, my Alert Reader badge has finally managed to successfully make a bid for its freedom and appears to have blown off my jacket on the ride home. 🙁

  332. Republicofscotland says:

    Ottomanboi @3.14pm.

    I can go one better than that drug use is rife in the Den of Iniquity aka Westminster.

    “Drug detection wipes found traces of cocaine in 11 out of 12 bathrooms tested on the premises, according the report, including a lavatory close to British Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s office. The bathrooms tested included some only accessible to those who hold parliamentary passes, including lawmakers, staffers, and journalists.”

    (12ft couldn’t archive).

  333. Andy Ellis says:

    @Ottomanboi 2.57 pm

    “There are doors that no matter how hard pushed do not yield without the application of judicious brute force.”

    I doubt you’ll find many takers for the “armalite and ballot box” approach in Scotland. I mean, the nativists might be regressive moonhowling nutters, but even they aren’t advocating abandoning civic nationalism for the armed struggle or storing up compubtibles to burn down holiday homes in the highlands à la Siol nan Gaidheal.

  334. Dorothy Devine says:

    Dan , thanks for the up to date version . P.S folk who call me Dot end up with no front teeth!

    James , my trike was a pedal one which I rode round our garden in Aberdeen as an Apache princess a very looong time ago. I always wanted to travel back in time and warn the tribes of the impending doom , give them a gatling gun or several hundred and tell them when they saw the ships with the crosses on the sails attack. I wonder what America would have become without the European interference and greed.

  335. Ottomanboi says:

    REPUBLIC. 3:14
    Truly, the Land of Cockaigne…in all senses.
    So tawdry, it gives «decadence» a bad name!

  336. Republicofscotland says:

    Well, when Sturgeon makes her bid to escape Scotland and the mess she’ll have left behind, including a phony indyref that many will have bought into only then to be heartbroken when they realise they’ve been played, though some will still believe Sturgeon did her best and that it was all someone else’s fault that we didn’t dissolve the union.

    Heads will turn to see who will be the next SNP leader and probable FM, and that person will be, bar any upsets Angus Robertson. Robertson is speaker at Königswinter Conference it is convened once a year by the society Königswinter UK, it has strong ties to the Bilderberg group, and the UK branch has the same mailing address as the Ditchley Foundation indicating a connection.

    The Ditchley Foundation has connections to Integrity Initiative, the Ditchley Foundation can be found in Oxfordshire.

  337. Ottomanboi says:

    ANDY ELLIS. 3:26
    Civic nationalism is a «nice» notion but there is something pipe and old slippers about it.
    Where is the vital spark!

  338. James Che. says:

    Dorothy Devine,

    Well well, what can say, I take my hat off to you.
    Pedal Trikes usually do not have so many gears and are prone to tilt on Scottish hills and into potholes,
    Are you saying you still use your old trike?

  339. Andy Ellis says:


    I think the closest Scotland get’s to the vital spark is watching Para Handy chuffing up and down the Argyll coast.

    Civic nationalism may not be perfect, but I’m pretty convinced it’s better than either the status quo or the non-civic alternatives.

    As we’ve seen recently over the pond with the rolling back of a woman’s right to choose and the confirmation of their citizen’s right to bear arms, we can’t assume that the trajectory of history will invariably be in the direction of a more progressive society.

  340. Dan says:


    Much as it’s tempting to take you up on the offer of free gratis front teeth removal to save paying dentist’s fees… In my defence, I only abbreviated your name to save the environmental impact of IT servers consuming excessive energy by having to store superflous characters. 😉
    Wings may become a further target by the wokey eco warriors due to folk posting excessive screeds of repetitive moonhowling shite.
    I’d also like to know if someone that uses pronouns in their bio is considered a moonhowler…

  341. James Che. says:

    Dorothy Devine

    I don’t know about Dan keeping his front teeth but very slick diplomatic of easing out with that get clause.
    You should provide lessons i liked it.

    I am curious what you progressed to after your trike, to warn our tribes.
    I learned that a mountain bike for the country, a motorbike for distance and a trike for the town has served well.
    With Having an adult trike in town, car drivers treat you with a different attitude to my mountain bike or motor bike. Even with the extra conversion gears on it.
    Although always revert back to car no matter what in winter, must be getting soft in older age.

  342. James Che. says:


    I have never witnessed the Scots as a group race of people being instigator aggressive to any other country.

    They are often drawn in or defend themselves , but never a nation of people that look to attack for the pleasure or greed of it spoils.

  343. Andy Ellis says:

    “….but never a nation of people that look to attack for the pleasure or greed of it spoils.”

    Why do some people need to confect an idealised view of Scots history?

    The Scots frequently invaded England over centuries from as early as 1039 when Duncan I invaded and was decisively defeated at Durham. We also defeated the Norwegians and gained the Hebrides and Isle of Man between 1262-66.

    Scots also participated as French allies to the Hundred Years War in France, the Low Countries and Iberia, as well as trying to install Edward Bruce as High King of Ireland, not to mention Scots participation in the English Civil War and the Jacobite Rising.

    I’m not sure why some folk have such an atavistic desire to misrepresent Scots and take a wholly ahistorical view of their “contribution” to complex events.

    The idea that the virtuous Scots never attacked anyone “for the pleasure or greed of it spoils” is just tosh.

  344. James Che. says:

    Mod man.

  345. Dan says:

    One can’t simply compare the complex ancient history of a certain peoples with modern times.
    Who is to say the Scots or Scotland, or any other people of their land, would have engaged in certain past endeavors if the leadership of that time was derided through the mechanism of universal suffrage and civic nationalism, empowering all said land’s people to be included in the voting franchise, so it actually facilitated a democratically elected executive power which reflected and represented the wonts of the people of said land, and to instruct said power to act in certain particular ways.

    I’m minded of this Monty Python sketch (3mins)

  346. Shug says:

    I just don’t understand why the SNP have protected Grady
    Am I missing something

  347. Confused says:

    cherry-picked history without context – I suppose it’s part of your training and commensurate with your love of chatham house fairy tales

    the germanic mercenaries brought by the romans to northumbria were for one purpose only – to attack the Scots; they did so even when the Romans had gone – the trouble always comes from the south, and to deal with it, you go south

    vikings were the nuisance neighbours of their day, they certainly deserve anything they got

    the expedition to Ireland is something the English like to pick on as if to say “you’re the bad guys”

    the english civil war is extremely complex and the “scots” participation more the case of religious nutcases being drawn into “a fight which was not theirs” (?! remind you of anything) because they wanted to turn england presbyterian and thought they were the new chosen people; they got their comeuppance – but its not really Scotland v England, its factions within each side, at it

    worldwide, the english have a “rep” which we don’t; there is no comparison, even if Scots are not pure as the driven snow. The worst Scots were the unionists who enthusiastically joined the imperial project – it’s a prod thing, all that old testament, fire and sword, faith and faith alone, madness.

    the inbuilt genetic disposition of the english to regard anywhere as a province of england and all wealth, english is a scourge humanity has never recovered from

  348. Mark Boyle says:

    James Che. says:
    26 June, 2022 at 1:55 pm

    Cancer is never an excuse, tell that to cancer patients you heartless …….

    You’re not the cancer patient champ.

    You however have just used it as an excuse for being a rocket.

    James Che. says:

    I have never known anyone so callous as yourself towards cancer patients and carers for the sake of scoring points.

    LOL! Internet drama queens, gotta love ’em. Won’t somebody please think of the children?

    You’re the one that just tried to use it to score points, you feeble cretin. Or is posting so many times under so many alias meaning you’re getting your stories mixed up again?

    James Che. says:
    26 June, 2022 at 2:09 pm

    Syupid fu..king cu..t

    And that’s probably the most articulate post you’ve made all week.

    By the way, that’s another eleven posts you’ve managed to make in that time since I last posted, much the same as you manage to make from dawn to dusk day in day out on here.

    Aye, it’s all making such an impact on your life you’ve all this time for making post after post after post, day in day out, week in week out, month in month out.

    I’ll call bullshit on this one – if others want to believe this serial fantasist on this that’s their lookout, but this fud’s cried wolf once too often on here for me to so much as believe him to tell the time.

  349. Dorothy Devine says:

    James , I did indeed graduate from a trike , to two wheels then a more convenient four – I noticed four wheels kept one drier than two!

    I too must commend Dan for his diplomatic excuse – he may keep his front teeth , at least for now!

  350. Republicofscotland says:

    So the S30 route to an indyref was only agreed to by the English PM David Cameron in 2014 because he and George Osborne feared that the Scottish government might go ahead with a plebiscitary election if Cameron did not agree to issue a S30. We will need that route again or a UDI the latter my preferred option.

    “Speaking to his party’s National Council in Stirling today, Alba leader and former SNP First Minister Alex Salmond said: “No time in history has been better to press Scotland’s will against Westminster as a puff of wind would blow over Boris Johnson.

    “The Section 30 route is not a Gold Standard, it was a compromise and the the UK Government agreed to it because the Scottish Government made David Cameron and George Osborne think that other options such as a plebiscite would be progressed if they did not agree to the 2014 independence referendum. “

  351. Republicofscotland says:

    The key words here must surely be “blocked off” which I assume is under English law.

    “THE lead official negotiator for Prime Minister David Cameron ahead of the 2014 independence referendum has said he is “certain” Boris Johnson’s Government has “blocked off” all legal routes to Indyref2 next year.

    Professor Ciaran Martin’s intervention will come as a blow to Nicola Sturgeon who is due this Tuesday to set out to Holyrood her route map for a new vote in October 2023.”

    Mr Martin added.

    “The goal of the Scottish Government and the wider independence movement is not to hold a referendum. It’s to achieve independence. Whilst some form of consultative referendum might be possible legally, though I’m sceptical, I am certain that for now any and all lawful, democratic routes to independence are blocked off by the UK Government,”

    All democratic routes blocked off what does that say about this English Tory government that they will without hesitation block off democracy in Scotland.

  352. Robert Hughes says:

    ” Professor Ciaran Martin’s intervention will come as a blow to Nicola Sturgeon ” . A * blow * with a feather maybe .

    Let’s see how Episode 2 of Northern Exposure : The Papers Capers plays-out , but I don’t think many here are expecting anything other than a thrill-free anti-climax .

    This Johnson & Sturgeon folie à deux , this phoniest of * wars *, works admirably for both , two bad actors in a tedious dope-opera

    The * twist * in the plot being most of the audience are the dopes

  353. Robert Graham says:

    BBC according to Tory Ross won’t take part in the pretend referendum oh dear how sad.

    All eligible registered to vote and don’t cast their vote will be deemed as agreeing with the question on the voting paper


    There that’s that sorted for you yah Tory arswipe


  354. sarah says:

    @ Breeks at 12.57: nice to see you and the wee dug.

  355. Robert Graham says:

    The SNP should be pushing one Message

    Unless you and your friends and family vote to get out of this rancid one sided union where the electorate of another country decides your fate.


    it’s that simple Bawjaws and the Tory party will be in government for the next 100 years and there is nothing you can do about it , it doesn’t matter if every single person voted SNP we will still get a English Government,

    NOW That’s a fkn horrific future to look forward to, after every single general election we still get lumbered with a English Government not once but every single fkn time .

    YOU EITHER VOTE FOR INDEPENDENCE or you will continue to be robbed by another country it’s your choice because you won’t be able to if the Tory government get their way they will change the law , remember Everything Hitler did was legal because he introduced the ENABLING ACT this Tory government are treading the same road.

  356. PacMan says:

    Andy Ellis says: 26 June, 2022 at 1:03 pm

    Pac Man for example @ 10.32 am above says on the one hand he’s:

    “happy to debate with people who have alternative views than me. In fact, I encourage it as it gives me a fresh perspective on subjects”;

    before quickly following up with:

    “However there is no point interacting with certain individuals on here as they have nothing positive, constructive and alternative view on offer”.

    So what he actually wants is an echo chamber to endlessly discuss the positive, constructive, alternative views they and their mates offer?

    How to move the goalposts and disenfranchise 20% of Scots without looking like blood and soil nationalists?

    The nationalism I believe in called by called Parliamentary. I believe in a strong democracy with strong political institutions but are contained within a written constitution. You could say I am more interested in what happens after independence rather than how we get there.

    I know you and a lot of posters in here are not going to like this but I don’t have an opinion on the voting franchise. I am happy for it to be discussed and I’ll go with the majority consensus that will give us the best way to get to the form of nationalism I want.

    I am open to listen to all arguments on the subject but what I am not going to tolerate is individuals who are rude, argumentative, belittle and ridicule the opinions of others whom don’t agree with them.

    I also don’t like the arrogance of individuals who refuse to acknowledge that other people have different opinion and in no way try to win them over.

    You may not like this but you are one of these individuals and quite clearly you can throw abuse to other posters and myself all you want but I refuse to acknowledge your comments.

  357. Effigy says:

    Worth hitting the Tories with it-

  358. Andy Ellis says:

    @Pac Man 9.36 pm

    I don’t care about your justifications. Like James Che you’re part of the problem, not part of the solution as far as I’m concerned: your previous posts, MO and those you interact with proves it to my satisfaction.

    Don’t come this “I also don’t like the arrogance of individuals who refuse to acknowledge that other people have different opinion and in no way try to win them over.” crap either…it just won’t wash.

    Not all opinions are of equal merit. Some are just plain wrong. It is therefore the very definition of pointlessness trying to win those wedded to certain opinions over. If you try to put the facts in front of people and they choose to believe the woo-woo instead, there comes a point when you stop banging you head of the wall of their imbecility.

    This place is rife with regressive, nativist bigots and ascientific flat earthers, but they’re not representative of the readership, still less the movement as a whole. That doesn’t mean we should give the fringe of moonhowlers free rein however.

  359. robertkknight says:

    Robert Graham at 9:22 pm
    “The SNP should be pushing one Message”

    Sadly, the SNP are only interested in what is advantageous and profitable to the political machine that has become the SNP.

    Everything else, including Indy, is secondary.

    The very existence of ALBA, ISP etc. is testament to the fact that for many, Sturgeon’s tenure has been weighed, measured and found wanting. It’s a pity for Scotland that Salmond didn’t see that particular ‘writing on the wall’ years ago.

  360. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Eh, robertkknight, hindsight is an invaluable quality.

  361. Dan says:

    Jist maybe being aligned with the movement as a whole ain’t really that smart a move in the scheme of things… Well that’s unless you want or have an interest in the current stagnation continuing…
    Ya ken, seeing as so many Indy folk in the movement don’t even appear to understand the fookin voting systems, or display any critical thought in analysing what has occurred to the Parties they still continue to vote for with all the corrupt and undemocratic shite they get up to, as well as all the dubious processes utilised in the administration of the devolved powers in oor Holyrood parliament.
    Plus, voting for politicians that aren’t even able to state in public the dictionary definition of what a woman is kinda sets the bar low. Tack on the hypocrisy of double standards in matters pertaining to inappropriate sexual activities and relationships. And yet these folk have the gall to try to tone police Indy campaigning.
    Soz, but I’ll not be told how to behave or what I can say by some individual or group that can’t even behave properly themselves.

    Indy progress might improve if the movement as a whole was a lot more on the ball. Coz if they don’t get with the program, and instead continue to lag several electoral cycles behind the curve, then they and by association us, will continue to be out played and manoeuvred by those who are sharp and dynamic enough to change their tack to suit their interests.

  362. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Dan (10.45) –

    The pressure continues to build, despite the doldrums.

    The harder they press the cork in, the more that pressure will grow. Many of us are simply dog-tired and disgusted. We have no choice but to hunker down and pray for some kind of a breakthrough. If that has to be the complete collapse of the SNP and forced departure of Sturgeon, so be it.

    Now Scotland has released a short video announcing a ‘summer of disobedience’ and that has sparked outrage from some independence supporters who complain that it’s too ‘aggressive’. It feels as if we’re in a nightmare stalemate where no-one can say or do anything which won’t be pilloried by erstwhile fellow travellers.

    FWIW, I love it and want to see more of this ‘attitude’. More power to everyone involved.

    Gloves aff!

  363. robertkknight says:


    Indeed. But having only met her once, back in the mid-90’s at Eden Court, I confess I wasn’t impressed, and nothing that followed changed my initial impression.

    When I think back to what the SNP was then, and the MPs/MEPs we had, I could weep…

  364. James Che. says:


    I dont suppose bj can legally block the right to self determination, without breaking the UN’s legal status.
    Then again i don’t suppose he has any legal right to prevent access or block the Scots abiding to the international treaty of the union that bj is trying to hold together, which includes the claim of right.

    If scotland decided to go ahead and hold a vote for independence, the right to self determination and under the Scots claim of right,

    What can he do? challenge it like he did when he prorogued parliament. Under the articles that hold the the Scots claim of right.?
    He would legally be on the wrong side treaty.
    Where is he going to contest it?
    the supreme court? it is not Scots law, nor is the supreme court in the treaty of the union Articles even on the english side of the treaty of union.

    What will westminster and BJ say, to those that Uphold international treaties and the UN,

    I blocked the Scots from having the right to self determination.
    I block the Scots from adhering to their half of 1707 international treaty.
    I made sure that only England could use the treaty.
    I stopped them using “their claim of right ” that we “England’s parliament agreed to” in writing in the articles of treaty of union.

    It is no longer a constitutional matter, it is voluntary breaking the articles of the treaty from westminster.

    If they broke, lets us not hang around to fix it.

  365. robbo says:

    Think he might be back on his croft milking the goats sooner than he thinks.

  366. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @robbo (11.37) –

    If there’s any natural justice in this world the goats will get a shot at milking him.


  367. Breeks says:

    “This is a smear campaign,” Mr Blackford added.

    A spokesman for the MP said: “Mr Blackford is adamant that these outrageous claims are entirely without foundation.

    After Alex Salmond, Joanna Cherry, Neal Hanvie, Michelle Thomson, Chris McEleny, Craig Murray, Mark Hirst, Rev Stu Campbell, Roddy McLeod, Grousebeater, and every single patriot who has placed their faith in ALBA, suddenly Mr Blackford, an SNP smear campaign without foundation suddenly begins to trouble you…

    “First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a socialist.”

    Incidently Mr Blackford, I heard a rumour revealing who it was released the secret recording of the infamous SNP meeting which has landed you in such trouble, but should I be the one to spread an unsubstantiated rumour? No absolutely not. Never.

  368. craig murray says:

    Sadly I missed the Bannockburn march because someone in the family was ill. I much enjoyed the Dumfries one.

    I was told by AUOB at the last Glasgow march that I could not speak at the rally because I am seen as a divisive figure. I agreed quite cheerfully as I have no desire to cause problems, and I marched in Dumfries and would have done in Stirling with no thought of speaking.

    But I am somewhat startled to learn that I am too “divisive” for AUOB but Alyn Smith is fine.

  369. Breeks says:

    craig murray says:
    27 June, 2022 at 6:05 am

    But I am somewhat startled to learn that I am too “divisive” for AUOB but Alyn Smith is fine.

    So am I.

    That seems bizarre to say the least.

  370. Breeks says:

    The First Minister said : “The case for a referendum is therefore now as much a Scottish democracy movement as a Scottish independence movement.

    Oh fuck off.

  371. Robert Hughes says:

    ” The First Minister said : “The case for a referendum is therefore now as much a Scottish democracy movement as a Scottish independence movement.”

    Fetishising a Referendum – one of which she knows will be subject to all kinds of external interference – at the expense of a relentless focus on Independence itself, is just one the many distracting strategies * they * have deployed for the last 7/8 years : the main and most obvious one .

    We’re being softened-up for some feeble , utterly compromised * solution * to the ” Scottish Question ” .

    I can hear the creaking bones of Devo Max rattling in the Broon cupboard

  372. Ruby says:

    craig murray says:

    But I am somewhat startled to learn that I am too “divisive” for AUOB

    I didn’t know that. I believe Craig made a mistake by appearing to be anti-women.

    but Alyn Smith is fine.

    Alyn Smith being fine or not merits a separate discussion.

  373. Ottomanboi says:

    As a Catholic «alien» i have no vote, but what hypothetical joy to exercise it by not voting for the possible Baroness Sturgeon of Irvine, Global Commissar of Reproduction or whatever. But many of my informed, orthodox co religionists, the constituency that actually does exercise the right to vote, will seize the opportunity.
    The image of La Sturgeon in mid rant is indeed a picture.
    Scottish people’s «right» to sovereignty and independence….ABORT! ABORT!

  374. Effigy says:

    This Blackford is a bully claim.

    Westminster has already proven Patel to be a bully and the punishment, not the right word,
    £375,000 of tax payers money to 1 of the victims.

    So no repercussions for bullying then.

  375. Breastplate says:

    I would imagine that repercussions are at a minimum if you’re one of the in-crowd.

  376. PacMan says:

    Andy Ellis says: 26 June, 2022 at 10:05 pm

    @Pac Man 9.36 pm

    I don’t care about your justifications. Like James Che you’re part of the problem, not part of the solution as far as I’m concerned: your previous posts, MO and those you interact with proves it to my satisfaction.

    Don’t come this “I also don’t like the arrogance of individuals who refuse to acknowledge that other people have different opinion and in no way try to win them over.” crap either…it just won’t wash.

    Not all opinions are of equal merit. Some are just plain wrong. It is therefore the very definition of pointlessness trying to win those wedded to certain opinions over. If you try to put the facts in front of people and they choose to believe the woo-woo instead, there comes a point when you stop banging you head of the wall of their imbecility.

    This place is rife with regressive, nativist bigots and ascientific flat earthers, but they’re not representative of the readership, still less the movement as a whole. That doesn’t mean we should give the fringe of moonhowlers free rein however.

    Ah, the benevolent shepherd whose joyous self-sacrifice is to herd the bewildered and those who have strayed from the path to the righteous truth, no matter the cost to yourself.

  377. Breeks says:

    Ottomanboi says:
    27 June, 2022 at 8:50 am


    Put Nicola Sturgeon as chair in the Abortion Debate, and the kids will be into Primary 3 before there are any important decisions made… Apart from their gender obviously.

  378. Breastplate says:

    Craig Murray,
    It shouldn’t make a blind bit of difference what your particular leanings are, politically or otherwise because it supposed to be ALL under one banner.

    I think that some of the organisers have either forgotten this or have never had any idea what it means.

    The banners with “Tory scum” on them at previous marches, I believe to be not only detrimental to the movement but also out with the spirit of this particular organisation.

    We will have Tory voters in Scotland whether we like it or not, we will have Libdem, Labour, some manifestation of the current SNP, green, socialist, communist parties and a few others.
    I would rather have a Scottish Tory party in power in an independent Scotland than any other UK party in power in Scotland.

    All under one banner should mean what it says on the tin.
    To me, British Labour and the British Conservatives are exactly the same party, 2 cheeks of the same arse, as the old addage goes.

    My first priority is Scottish self determination not to specify keeping a particular foe from government, which at the same time adds unwarranted kudos to the other partners in crime, raising their acceptability.

    This idea that one UK party is worse than the others needs to go and the idea that Craig Murray is a more divisive figure than Alyn Smith is farcical.

    That the organisers of the Not All Under One Banner marches think this, should ring alarm bells.
    Maybe that’s just me, though.

  379. stuart mctavish says:

    Shug yesterday @5:57pm

    No idea but in the tweet Breeks posted @3:48 am, Mr Blackford’s interrogator appeared particularly keen to associate the (Westminster?) parliament with sex pests.

    Since Grady had clearly been disciplined for having a laugh (inappropriate behaviour in parliament) then reading between the lines, ignoring the conflation of sex pest and male nonceness, and restricting context to the alleged ’sex pest’ in question, the interviewer must have been referring to the precious staffer..

    If so, and the logic holds, it rather begs the question when STV might be tempted to give BBC bosses a similar public grilling wrt serial (historic) offenders such as Gary Linneker – who not only touched the back of other men’s necks on a regular enough basis himself, he would often perform in such a manner as to upset anyone but England whilst inviting televised kisses and cuddles from his strictly English only workmates – unless penalties were involved, and he was as likely to bring the whole of Scotland to a climax instead!

  380. Breeks says:

    It would seem the man can’t even jog truthfully.

    Jeez man. What the fuck is wrong with the world?

    I know that fucktards are ruling the place, but increasingly it feels like non-fucktards are an ethnic minority.

  381. Ottomanboi says:

    BREEKS. 09:59
    She is principle politician in a country with a demographic problem. Pro choice, as long as it’s one of her, and her followers, choosing.
    She surrounds herself with rainbow flagged sterility; intellectual, political and psychological.
    Unfortunately, the so called «developed world» is equally prey to this anal fascism.
    Not just Scotland traduced by its putative guardians.

  382. Mark Boyle says:

    craig murray says:
    27 June, 2022 at 6:05 am

    I was told by AUOB at the last Glasgow march that I could not speak at the rally because I am seen as a divisive figure.

    And All Under One Banner didn’t see the obvious irony – especiallycConsidering certain speakers they did have track records for starting World War 3 in empty rooms.

    Aye, wha’s lik’ us!

  383. James Che. says:

    It is a good obversation being made, that first they come for socialist etc.

    This can be seen with snp over the years,
    Can we presume that when the list of independence supporters and leader are being eliminated from platforms of all kinds, and from those we held in high esteem to those not so much.
    It matters.

    How much pressure and influence, is being used by outside influences to manipulate how the snp behave.
    Right enough some Scots just like the money and priviledges,.

    But are we not being a little bit naive when we look at the hollowing out of ALL the snp, the divisions deliberately sown being instigated by others to rid ourselves of the Snp party altogether.

    Perhaps AS knew/ knows something we do not when he persists in trying to keep the two divided halfs of the snp together.
    Maybe he realised they all are slowly being spliced into sections and picked of to cause smaller groups attacking each other.
    It is a well known stratagy after all.

    And we saw the lengths gone to by what we thought was was NS choices.
    But supposing it was not her particular choices, but a case of blackmail or pressure from another source. I have to admit she look down right uncomfortable, like a butterfly on the end of a pin.

    If anyone should have been angry at NS you would have thought it would be Alex Salmond, perhaps he is aware how dirty and infiltrated the devolved government are and the lengths they will go to to break down what was the only Scottish party for independence from within.

    And the sudden craze for “off with her head ” does not tally with the response from a experienced leader like AS.

  384. James Che. says:

    There are those here that treat many of us with derision, nothing….nothing anyone says is to be listened to except the one constant view they have stuck too, down with the snp, get rid of NS.
    Has she been deliberately set up and comprised,
    Is this what Alex thinks.

  385. James Che. says:

    Is this happening to AUOB,
    I am not doubting there are those definately posing as SNP and other founding party members to other parties.
    But we recognise those by the way they act and talk to the rest of us,

    But Alex’s faith has not waivered when ours has,
    I am not a fan of what NS appears to have done to the Ex FM,
    But he knows the ropes, the in’s and out’s of the opposition and is an experienced politician that has had to shoulder an worked amongst the propaganda, the manipulations, the sleaze, and stayed on track.
    Now one by one we see the rest of the Snp slowly picked off.
    The good and the bad.
    They have one thing in common though, from The highest to the lowest, they are all either strong supporters of Scottish independence or on the fringe.

    Do you have the feeling we may have been played. And are naively still being played.

  386. Ottomanboi says:

    An illustration of why the wise ought to distrust all «politicians»
    Truly a couple of cccccc clowns.
    The international stage, where tired old hasbeens may strut and die.
    NS, a new act coming soon?

  387. Breeks says:

    Ottomanboi says:
    27 June, 2022 at 11:26 am

    She is principle politician in a country with a demographic problem.

    Thing is, “why” does Scotland have a demographic population?

    There is no practical reason why it should.

    I would however bet a whole 50p that the average age of people moving to Scotland is roughly three times the average age of those who are leaving. They are selling modest properties where property is vastly overpriced, and with money to burn, moving to areas where prices are depressed by comparison. By doing so, they are artificially inflating the local property market so local inhabitants are simply priced out the area they were born in. There you go kids… you’ve the choice of a Council Scheme or Australia. And I was lying about the Council scheme.

    That whole scenario could be infinitely better managed, but the reason it isn’t, is because central UK Government WANTS Scotland to be a retirement home and sporting Estate for the Elite… and of course a dumping ground for nuclear waste like Trident. That is Westminster’s great ambition for Scotland, and the plans are well advanced.

    Scotland’s young families and communities need help and support, not polarized between either young single mothers on benefits, or toffs complaining that Mummy and Daddy can’t find a house in the right area.

    Having kids and raising them to be a new generation should be fun, and a pleasure, where the central activity is raising those kids well and helping them get a good start in life, not the perpetual struggle and stress of seeing what’s left in the kitty once the crippling mortgage has been paid.

    The housing market is a racket in my opinion. It’s all Thatcher’s Ponzi scheme for the UK, and people are trapped paying wayyyyy too much for the fabric of their home, and retiring as millionaires after doing nothing to their property for 50 years except live in it. And the new properties being built are shite.

    The Germans and other European countries don’t look to buy houses until much later in life, because they don’t worship greed like the UK does, so their young folks have some loose change in their pockets and some money to spend having some fun. – Yes “fun” when they’re young, – not out getting blootered on cheap Ecclesiastical Anti-freeze.

  388. wullie says:

    Indeed Breeks
    the North five hundred road trip has utterly destroyed any hope for young indigenous people being able to stay where they were born and brought up anywhere along that route. And as you say the new builds are crap having spoken to a couple of individuals presently working on new builds along that route they said tell people not to touch them they just badly constructed garbage.

  389. Ruby says:

    Breastplate says:
    27 June, 2022 at 10:03 am

    Craig Murray,
    It shouldn’t make a blind bit of difference what your particular leanings are, politically or otherwise because it supposed to be ALL under one banner.

    It would be interesting to know why AUOB banned Craig Murray from speaking why they found him divisive.

    If you were to allow everyone regardless of their particular leanings to march & speak you would have ‘Manky Shirt & his band marching’ and making speeches. I

    When Craig came out so adamantly in favour of self-id I thought it was a big mistake.
    I did post about it at the time.

  390. Ruby says:

    Will Alba ban Craig Murray from making speeches at their meetings?

  391. James Che. says:


    The overspill of people south of the border as rich retiree’s has been on the increase in Scotland displacing those born here by out pricing them for housing,

    But this is not just one PM in the UK that has allowed this to happen and encourage this to take place to falsely push and prop up the housing bubble.

    I experienced how bad it was in Wales, when their youngsters could not buy a local house.
    The situation became so bad that the Welsh set fire to their houses that were over priced,
    You would pass by one of these either smouldering or flames engulfing and leaping up into the air,

    They protested in the strongest way to homes being bought for holiday homes that sat empty the rest of the year, or the overspill that bought up these places then cordoned them of with high fencing and big signs declaring trespassers will be prosecuted,
    More or less telling locals to p..s off.

    At first the onslaught is slow, and then the momentum gathers pace until you cannot find an original local for miles.

    The demographics of young local people being expelled from their own country due to a shortage of housing and lack of employment in these new retiree’s and holiday housing areas has a tremendous impact on ethic populations of their country,
    Wether it be Scotland, Wales or Ireland.

    It ironic to say the least, that most people want out of move out of England as soon as they have money and gained some wisdom.

  392. Republicofscotland says:

    “I was told by AUOB at the last Glasgow march that I could not speak at the rally because I am seen as a divisive figure.”

    WTF is AUOB doing by not allowing Craig Murray to speak, show me a well kent indy figure head and I’d bet that they’ll be some folk who support independence that finds the person divisive.

    FFS it doesn’t matter who speaks on whatever subject they’ll always be folk who find the speakers opinion divisive.

    Murray is a 100% die-hard indy supporter he has the knowledge and the experience to know which direction leads out of this rancid union. I don’t know whose running the AUOB now but they’d better get their act together, letting the likes of the f*ckin die-hard Russophobe/Sinophobe and unionist Alyn Smith speak at Saturday’s event but snubbing a man who Smith couldn’t lace his boots in Murray.

    Unless of course like the SNP, AUOB are ditching anyone who doesn’t conform or has an opinion that doesn’t match the LGBTI+ narrative.

  393. Republicofscotland says:

    I’ll say one thing Sturgeon the betrayer and her SNP clique know how to capitalise on world events. As US states turn back the clock on women’s rights with the abortion laws, back home the betrayer who has also deeply impinged on Scottish women’s rights is attempting to come out of the shit smelling of roses with regards to women’s rights.

    “AN abortion summit in Scotland today will be an important opportunity to “re-affirm women’s autonomy and right to choose”, Nicola Sturgeon has said.

    The summit, in Edinburgh, aims to ensure that women in Scotland can access services without fear, harassment or intimidation and will look at legislative mechanisms to establish buffer zones around clinics.

    It will also seek to identify immediate, short-term actions to protect women from harassment or intimidation outside hospitals and sexual health clinics, following protests by anti-abortion campaigners outside such facilities in recent weeks.”

    It wasn’t that long ago that 500+ women held a demo outside Holyrood calling the betrayer out for undermining women’s rights, that ended with the SPCB asking Westminster for permission to ban Scots from demonstrating outside their own parliament.

    The betrayer is indeed cunning and deceitful like her heroine Hillary Clinton.

  394. Robert Hughes says:

    ” Unless of course like the SNP, AUOB are ditching anyone who doesn’t conform or has an opinion that doesn’t match the LGBTI+ narrative. ”

    That can’t be the reason ROS , Craig has been * at odds * with ALBA re his position on GRA – as you’ll know . In this one regard he’s probably closer to the SNP’s position than most here for example .

    Whatever the reason , I agree it’s a pretty poor show not allowing Craig to speak – would be at any time but when use-free-zones like A Smith are invited to speak it defies belief .

    As you say , Craig’s calibre and commitment are on a par with anyone connected with our Movement and he should be embraced as an invaluable asset

  395. Republicofscotland says:

    F*ck me what next will SNP MPs MSPs apologise for breathing, the murdered by Special Branch Willie McRae was sympathetic to their cause and was thought to be a member.

    Maybe the SNP feels threatened by them. Mind you these days the SNP just releases its attack dog the Lord Advocate via its foot soldiers Police Scotland to do its dirty work.

    “Evelyn Tweed issued a statement after posting a picture with the banner for Siol nan Gaidheal during an event at Bannockburn on Saturday.”

  396. Republicofscotland says:

    “That can’t be the reason ROS , Craig has been * at odds * with ALBA re his position on GRA – as you’ll know . In this one regard he’s probably closer to the SNP’s position than most here for example .”

    True Robert, Murray is closer to the SNP’s position and Smith is even closer again, so as you say it can’t be that. Could it be the AUOB organisers have come down on the side of the SNP, and we all know that Craig Murray is persona non grata when it comes to the SNP, so the SNP don’t want him speaking at these events so the AUOB now won’t let him.

  397. DavidRitchie says:

    I will say again how do you get the UK Gov to agree I still think Boris should say ok but your ref is next month .take it or leave it .For me the number one issue I have is cost of living ie heating and food bills I want to hear how an independent Scotland will deal with that on day one.

  398. Chas says:

    David Ritchie

    You should not come on here and raise questions about how an Independent Scotland would deal with things that cost money.

    The Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade will be on to you right away and accusing you of being a closet Unionist! It will all be fine in their eyes and minds. Who needs money anyway?

  399. Breeks says:

    James Che. says:
    27 June, 2022 at 2:02 pm

    At first the onslaught is slow, and then the momentum gathers pace until you cannot find an original local for miles.

    At a stag night over 30 years ago, I found myself camping in Arran for a couple of nights, and we had a kind of drinking game derived from finding someone Scottish who owned something. Campsite, hotels, bars, shops, don’t think we found any.

    For the avoidance of doubt, I don’t have any problem with the English folks being there, but I am increasingly saddened and alarmed about the Scots who are not. It is the Scots living in a place which give that place a Scottish character and culture, and that’s a culture currently in significant jeopardy. A healthy community should be robust enough to accommodate new blood without any problem, but that’s just it, too many of these communities are not at all healthy or robust.

    Knoydart used to be called Little Nottingham if I remember too, and I’m honestly not sure about some of these community buy-out places, but a lot of these populations are very fragile, if they’re not gone already.

    I know some Housing Associations which are sympathetic in principle, but there’s an awful lot more needs done.

    I think part of the problem is people just build houses and think more houses is the answer, or de-croft a house to sell it, and that process fractures the community, and it’s the disintegrating community which let’s in the house buyers. They need to be building townships which can grow organically.

    I also wonder too, how many move here, and between the rain, the midges, the shrubs and flowers that dinnae grow in the garden, and the ticks burrowing in the dog in spite of his tick collar, find it’s not the idyllic paradise they imagined, but find themselves trapped because the property price lottery doesn’t work in reverse, and they can’t get all their money out.

    Aye, that run down hotel you paid far too much to buy was actually run down for a reason.

    Scotland can be a bleak place to be miserable, lonely and homesick. Aye, it is lovely when the sun comes out, but that fleeting moment of salvation might be three or four months away yet. Can ye hing oan that long?

  400. Ottomanboi says:

    The notion of the «safe space» operates in education. Effectively it means discussion, debate, talk, dialogue etc are not allowed, such being liable to cause hurt and offence.
    Sturgeon, our local identitarian totalitarian, is probably sensitive to hurt and offence unless she and her conforming crew dish it up as of their right, but not yours.
    Identitarianism does not come with one of those neat «trigger warnings». When IDs are unleashed they go for the gonads.

  401. Republicofscotland says:

    Chas @4.20pm.

    F*ck you.

    Its indistputable that Scotland IS wealthy enough to stand alone, you sarcastic unionist pr*ck.

    Of course its also well known that England is desperate to hold onto Scotland, but in the same breathe calls it a financial basketcase.

  402. Ottomanboi says:

    How DAVID RITCHIE does England manage the increasing cost of living?
    We are led to believe England is the locomotive of the Brit economy and it now shows signs of running out of fuel. Johnson will no doubt sell off more assets to keep the thing going.
    The Qatari autocracy is a good bet for fire sale bargains.
    As for the approbation of the UK gov….oh really

  403. twathater says:

    @ Breastplate 10.03am I have been on at least 6 marches and I would say the largest demographic represented at the marches are working class people with families and older codgers of which I am one, obviously there are some middle class people who want and believe in independence for Scotland but without being facetious I would say they are more likely to be found at the golf club
    Being working class and presently suffering at the hands of the GREED DRIVEN tories , rather than the GREED DRIVEN other parties it should come as no surprise that most of the marchers would then be happy to rid themselves of the present shower of scum
    TBQH breastplate the marches my wife and I attended there weren’t many people who looked like they voted tory not that that means anything when you look at the representative DROSS in HR and WM
    Again TBQH I detest ALL the members of the FAKE Scottish political parties including the FAKE SCOTTISH SNP, as far as I’m concerned they are ALL betrayers of their country and countrymen and I would join in the shout to get rid of them all

    Regarding Craig Murray’s exclusion from speaking I vehemently oppose his views re the GRA , trans and the safety of women situation but to exclude him whilst citing him as divisive and then allowing DADDY (FFS) who denigrates and demeans real indy supporters as cybernats in the reviled msm defies logic

  404. James Che. says:


    Aye it is paradise for short stay holidays makers whom have bought a house in the summer, but soon enough long distance traveling becomes a problem on wee narrow roads in the dark and winter to get to shops miles and miles away,
    Or to go to the hospital or doctors in an emergancy.

    I went back once to see where I Grew up and did not recognise it, it was littered with rubbish in trees and bushes on the beaches and in the harbours, there were empty bottles and cans, disused camp fires left with rubbish/ plastic everywhere. And pile of litter and old wheels, washing machine sitting on the sides of the roads or grass verges, Fishing lines entangled in seaweed at low tide and in low bushes.
    Nobody was left that i knew, and big modern monstrous new build housing that looked out of place with the ancient back drop of hills and lochs,
    Why come to Scotland if you want to make it like the place you came from?
    The beauties and attractions was in the pristine purity of a landscape that had been unaltered for centuries and one of those rare places left in Britain untouched by the modern world.
    I remember we got our meals from our own garden the shell fish and fish from the loch, eggs from our own hens and milk from goats.
    There were no shops locally, nor did we own a car, we walked everywhere as did the generation before us.
    Plenty of midges, snakes, lizards, newts, ticks, dragon flies etc at that time, deer, otters and seals,
    Never saw much of any of these when I went back for holidays
    The community was strong with work on their doorstep,

    I have never returned to the west coast after viewing it desolation and destruction and its grey dirty bleakness.

  405. Ruby says:

    twathater says:
    Regarding Craig Murray’s exclusion from speaking I vehemently oppose his views re the GRA , trans and the safety of women situation but to exclude him whilst citing him as divisive and then allowing DADDY (FFS) who denigrates and demeans real indy supporters as cybernats in the reviled msm defies logic

    Craig Murray’s exclusion & Daddy inclusion are two separate issues.

    People are talking about Craig Murray being banned from speaking without knowing the reason why. I don’t know the reason why but I’m making a guess.

    I don’t think it was because of his views on GRA I think it was because he went on the attack of women who were fighting for women’s rights. It looked really bad. I reckon he alienated a lot of women. I was shocked! It was made even worse because it was at the same time as Alba was trying to win women’s votes.

  406. Breastplate says:

    AUOB is a pro independence organisation, manky jaiket isn’t pro independence so nobody including him could be expected to speak at it.

    I don’t see the reason in differentiating between identical political parties. That we do, is I believe, a mistake by us.

  407. Chas says:

    Scum 1 5.15

    I know I should not be replying to the likes of you but feel I have to but this time only.

    Simple questions to a simpleton-How do you know that it is indisputable that Scotland IS wealthy enough to stand alone?

    Where is it well known that England is desperate to hold onto Scotland, but in the same breathe calls it a financial basket case?

    Did wee Katie tell you?

    Is it now the case that any Independence supporter who is not a member of The Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade is in reality a Unionist prick?

    It is bigoted clowns like you that put people off the idea of Independence. Who would want to be associated with the likes of you?

  408. wull says:

    Tomorrow’s Tuesday. Isn’t that the Tuesday that’s going to be BIG ANNOUNCEMENT TUESDAY for NS, and so say all of us! Anyone like to try guessing what the editor of the National is busy dreaming up, at this very minute, for tomorrow’s headline?

    Maybe we can help him out. Just in case the poor man is a bit stuck. In that case, he must surely be consulting this site, as he scratches his boiled head for ideas.

    One suggestion might be:






    That last one could begin:

    ‘Inspired by her media guru, Murray Foote, Nicola Sturgeon later today will enter the arena to the strains of ‘I vow to thee my country’ in order to make her long-awaited big announcement about how she found her ball in the long grass, and how she now intends to kick it forward and further down the never-ending road to independence.

    After the big announcement, Foote is advising her to exit to the beautiful strains of a suitably adapted version of the old Frank Sinatra favourite, ‘I DID NOTHING – MY WAY!’

    A source close to Nicola informs us that this will of course be followed by an encore, as the audience shouts the traditional ‘Bis! Bis!’. Nicola will return to the stage and once more take the microphone. ‘No speech, this time’, she will say. ‘Just a song. When I walked off the stage I met my husband and he told to blow kisses at you. That last song was from Frank, this one is from Nancy. I think you’ll like it, and you had better not forget it!’

    Then, looking down at her footgear and giving her legs a wiggle, our source confirms that she will give the rapturous gathering a blast of…

    ‘These boots were made for walkin’,
    And that’s just what they’ll do
    One of these days these boots are gonna… walk all over you…’

    The whole of Scotland will be excited and ablaze after this announcement to end all announcements…

    Or have I got it wrong? Maybe it’s not Tuesday, but next Tuesday. Or even the next Tuesday again… Or just – whenever…

  409. Dan says:

    Christ, Chas is like a poundshop Don with the Scotland’s too wee too poor line.

    Here’s a link back to a post by Petra (RIP) with some stats.

    Or here’s a link back to Breeks and others bursting Don’s infatuation with a certain LSE blog article.

    And just who is “Chas” and what qualifications do they hold that we should trust their judgement over that of the likes of Jim Rogers…

  410. Ruby says:

    Craig Murray may cause himself problems by over sharing. In his latest tweet he tells us he is against abortion.

    Did we need to know that?

  411. Ruby says:

    Dan says:
    And just who is “Chas”

    A Tory?

  412. Breastplate says:

    Chas has had it explained to him that independence is about who makes the decisions on the resources Scotland has, not about the resources themselves.

    That he takes this to mean that nobody cares about Scotland’s resources is, let’s be kind and say, an unfortunate misunderstanding of the position that many independence supporters hold.

  413. Chas says:


    Where/When have I ever said that Scotland is too poor? A tory-You are having a laugh. I despise them as much as I hate the SNP.

    Not seen you on here for a while Ruby. Obviously laid low with the B.S.E Hope you are better.

  414. paul says:


    I have no doubt the first minster will be going hammer and tongs at finding a way to maybe somehow suggest somthing slightly better than we have now, maybe request a vow from someone or other.

  415. Chas says:


    Do you see anyone around the political scene in Scotland who you think has the ability to make the decisions on the resources that Scotland has? Or is it, as some on here think, that it is ok if an erse is made of the decisions but that is acceptable because it will be US who made an erse of it?

    Why are the SNP not prepared to take a stab at preparing projected financials for an Independent Scotland? Or do you think that Sturgeon will be doing this in her big announcement tomorrow along with the currency etc we will be using?

    You may not think that MONEY is important but I assure you that millions of Scots beg to differ.

  416. Republicofscotland says:

    “Or here’s a link back to Breeks and others bursting Don’s infatuation with a certain LSE blog article.”


    The LSE is funded by the Rockefeller Foundation, a foundation that is primarily, but not exclusively interested in eugenics, GMO, social control, regulatory capture.

  417. Breastplate says:

    Surely it isn’t beyond your understanding that just because something is not the number 1 priority that it does not cease to be important.
    Your answer has precisely explained my earlier comment about you.

    Your position is not only nonsensical, it can even be demonstrated that you don’t believe it yourself.

  418. Republicofscotland says:

    Dan @7.120pm

    Thanks for the link Dan, very interesting, I agree the triggering of Article 50 and Brexit should have seen Sturgeon dissolve the Treaty of Union, but the betrayer sold us out to keep the union intact instead.

    I say that event (Brexit) still resonates greatly with Scots and at the first opportunity we get we should declare the Treaty void, however we need to get that treacherous b*stard Sturgeon out of office to make any progress.

  419. Republicofscotland says:

    “And just who is “Chas””


    Is one of those concern trolls with an alternative agenda, there’s a few of them in here but I’m sure you know by now who they are.

  420. Chas says:


    You seem to have a very high opinion of yourself. I cannot find anything in your posts which even suggest why that would be!
    Something may not be your No 1 priority but have you ever stopped to think it might be other peoples? Or is it only your priorities that count? A trait common in the Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade.

  421. Andy Ellis says:

    @Dan 7.12 pm

    Maybe you or others can help me with this bit of Mia’s post:

    “The cleanest way is, in my view, to unilaterally terminate the treaty and forcing England to the negotiating table because it is put at the exact same footing as Scotland: with no treaties and no trade agreements. And then negotiating from there. But I can see how that would upset USA and others.”

    I’m still none the wiser how this termination happens? It’s not at all clear from the rest of the post. Who organises it? Presumably whoever it is will represent the Scottish people, yes…? Wouldn’t plebiscitary elections just be easier?

  422. Breastplate says:

    This is beyond tedious now.
    I did not say it wasn’t a number 1 priority for people, I’m merely pointing out that it shouldn’t be.

    You are the one that wrongly suggested that I and others thought money was unimportant, I explained why that wasn’t my position but you persist.

    That you don’t see any reason or logic in what I’ve said does not surprise me, that you don’t understand what self determination is does not surprise me, that you don’t understand what I’m talking about does not surprise me.

    JFK said “ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country”.
    Although it was the zeitgeist of another place and another time, what if anything does that mean to you?

    If people have an emotional attachment to the Union, reason or logic won’t loosen that attachment.

    If for some reason people don’t want independence because they believe that England subsidises Scotland, why do they come to the conclusion that they should keep scrounging of the good people of England instead of Scotland standing on its own two feet?

    There are about 200 countries in the world.
    According to your financial benchmarks of whether Scotland should be independent or not, which countries should be stripped of their independence or do the benchmarks only apply to Scotland?

    I’m sure it might seem a bit outlandish but please try to think before you reply.

  423. Breastplate says:

    Yes Ellis,
    Plebiscitary elections would be easier and as I’ve mentioned a few times in the past, in 2026, the USA celebrate their 250th year of independence. The message that will be all over the media is that independence is great, smashin’, super.

    Unless we miraculously escape the Union beforehand, 2026 should be another great opportunity.

  424. robertkknight says:

    Given that the UK Government considers it appropriate to unilaterally alter the Agreement on the withdrawal of the UK from the EU/EAEC, would it not be equally appropriate for the Scottish Government to unilaterally alter the Articles of the Treaty of Union?

    Both are international treaties are they not?

    What’s sauce for the goose…

  425. Breastplate says:

    I’m not married to one particular way of getting out of the Union, there should always be alternative routes examined and made ready.

  426. Breastplate says:

    To add, that we haven’t had some questions answered in court these past 8 years is very poor leadership from the SNP but to actively resist people doing that very thing tells another story.

  427. robertkknight says:


    In opposing and sabotaging efforts to establish matters of constitutional legality and legitimacy, it begs the question cui bono.

  428. Breeks says:

    wull says:
    27 June, 2022 at 6:48 pm
    Tomorrow’s Tuesday. Isn’t that the Tuesday that’s going to be BIG ANNOUNCEMENT TUESDAY for NS, and so say all of us! Anyone like to try guessing what the editor of the National is busy dreaming up, at this very minute, for tomorrow’s headline?

    Maybe we can help him out…

    I’m gonna go with “Sturgeon fires the starting gun for IndyRef 2.”</strong

  429. Big Jock says:

    As Mia has commented. Sturgeon’s trip to the US was interesting timing.Has this whole thing been a ruse for a prior agreement with Boris.

    He doesn’t grant the Section 30 publicly, but doesn’t stand in Nicola’s way with a Holyrood referendum. In return for England’s continuance as a successor state. I am very suspicious at her sudden bullishness :” There will be a referendum”.

  430. Breeks says:

    Big Jock says:
    28 June, 2022 at 12:42 am
    As Mia has commented. Sturgeon’s trip to the US was interesting timing.Has this whole thing been a ruse for a prior agreement with Boris.

    That’s like deja vu Big Jock. Back in 2016 I believed Sturgeon simply had to be scurrying about having clandestine meetings with EU Leaders to secure Independence and recognition.

    Turns out she was doing sweet fk all, and crumpled like a packet of crisps on Brexit day.

  431. Robert Hughes says:

    ” I’m gonna go with “Sturgeon fires the starting gun for IndyRef 2.”

    ” At a barn door , misses , the * bullet * ricochets off a passing albatross and catches Aberdeen Angus Robberson in the * groin * , IndyRef 2991 is postponed , not as a result of this tragic accident , because rain is forecast that year “

  432. Iain More says:


    wullie says:
    27 June, 2022 at 1:16 pm

    Indeed Breeks
    the North five hundred road trip has utterly destroyed any hope for young indigenous people being able to stay where they were born and brought up anywhere along that route. And as you say the new builds are crap having spoken to a couple of individuals presently working on new builds along that route they said tell people not to touch them they just badly constructed garbage.


    I couldn’t agree with you more. Only the rich Brits/English can afford the North 500. It is getting increasingly impossible to wild camp in Scotland as well and that is happening on Sturgeons and SNPs watch. MI6 and MI5 increasingly control the next Indy Referendum. Sic a parcel of rogues in a nation.

  433. Robert Louis says:

    I should be excited at Sturgeon’s ‘announcement of indyref2’ today, but I am not. Why? Because it will be nothing of any substance. Yet again, she will witter on, insisting that England’s Tory lying colonial government must give approval, and then how she will ‘aim’ to ‘ensure’ indyref2 ‘can’ be held in 2023. All of it worded in caveats, and ‘possibilities’.

    No country in the world ever gained independence by asking permission, yet Sturgeon insists that Scotland must. It is not true. She is a fraud and a lair, masquerading as being pro indy. Her goal is to destroy the indy movement, with her nonsense, lies and machinations. Today she will yet again give lying London the option to ‘refuse consent’, knowing full well that is EXACTLY what they will do.

    Why else did she try (and still does) to destroy Scotland’s greatest pro independence leader, Alex Salmond?

    Alex Salmond actually held an independence referendum, Sturgeon just pretends she wants to hold one. Jeez, even Brian Souter ran a referendum (and it was an exceptionally hateful one against gay rights) – remember that?? But no, Nicola needs ‘permission’, FFS.

    IF she simply stands up and says their will be an indyref2 in 2023, and then names the date, with the same approved question as used previously – should Scotland be an independent country – then I will be overjoyed, and will actively start campaigning.

    All of us know that will not happen. The sheep who still believe her, are in for a very big dissappointment today, even ‘The National’ today use the words ‘she will describe her ‘routemap’ to indyref2. A ‘routemap’???? All she has to do is name the date.

  434. paul says:

    Robert louis:

    The ‘sheep’ don’t look beyond their front step.

    If a leader of a nationalist inclination imposed a dissolution in order to support the holiday rep macdonald’s defence of the most decadent eastern european country,

    ‘they’ would suck it all up.

  435. Andy Ellis says:

    @Breastplate 10.30pm

    “Unless we miraculously escape the Union beforehand, 2026 should be another great opportunity.”

    I agree that HR2026 elections being plebiscitary is probably the best chance, assuming the SNP rank and file can be prevailed upon to get off their Gold Standard S30 Sanctioned referendum tramlines. We keep being told assured however by sundry believers in cunning plans that there IS a miraculous non referendum, non plebiscitary election route to indy.

    I’m just wondering what these would involve, who organises them and how we secure international recognition? The only plan I’ve seen anything more than pious hope and wish fulfillment on was Craig Murray’s proposal to have MPs & MSPs form a National Assembly, which again presupposes that the SNP were on board?

    Is it really likely any “miraculous escape” is going to happen before 2026, at which point even SNP loyalists will presumably realise they’ve been had because indyref2 will have been kicked in to the long grass again?

  436. Breastplate says:


    “ Is it really likely any “miraculous escape” is going to happen before 2026, at which point even SNP loyalists will presumably realise they’ve been had because indyref2 will have been kicked in to the long grass again?”

    No, it’s not likely and even less likely with the current “soft on independence” puppets we have in charge.

    Having said that, there is not one idea for independence I would tell the Unionists that I was going to use.

  437. Breastplate says:

    That should have read “that I wasn’t going to use”.

  438. paul says:

    I think we should keep quiet&c#0py; and see what difference there is.

    8 yearsof occult planning must have some output.

    A gldly given devomax.

  439. Robert Hughes says:

    What happened to the new post by Stu I could’ve swore I saw earlier this morning ? Don’t tell me he was * advised * to pull it , despite the CAVEAT that it was SATIRE ! As Stu said , it could only be interpreted as something else by bears of little brain ; and/or exocet offence-seeking * rockets *

  440. McDuff says:

    Dave Richie/ Chas.
    Interesting article a couple of days ago in the Daily Express of all newspapers (I stumbled on the article I don’t read that rag) where it conceded the importance of Scotland to the UK.
    It accepted that if Scotland became independent it would be in the interest of both countries to continue trade especially in energy. It admitted that Scotland with only 8% of the UK pop supplied 25% of renewable energy to rUK ie England providing a reliable and cheap source of electricity.
    If you take that plus fishing, commercial woodland,food and drink, tourism……….. then i can’t understand your questioning where the money would be in an independent Scotland.
    Iceland with a pop of 400,000 which does not have the resources of Scotland can create the financies to provide a high standard of living but you cast doubt on our ability to do the same.
    A very odd view.

  441. Sarah Mackenzie says:

    @ Robert Hughes: per Voices for Independence 45 viewers saw the new article by the Rev “Before you lose your head” but now it is unavailable.


  442. Sarah Mackenzie says:

    Mind you, look what happened to Mark Hirst for saying somebody “would reap the whirlwind”. These are dangerous times – unless you are SNP inner circle or GRA supporter.

  443. Breeks says:

    Today when Nicola makes her speech Through A Scottish Prism will be broadcasting live as she makes her statement. We have a broad spectrum of independence voices to analyse and discuss her plans. Join us from 2pm onwards on the YouTube Channel and at

    Re-posting this info.

    Kenny MacAskill, Neale Hanvey, Phil Boswell, Eva Comrie, Tommy Sheridan lined up to give a reaction…

    I so wish I could get excited about the speech, but unfortunately that rubber band broke on 31st January 2020. All I feel is impending sense of Déjà vu. (if “prescient” Déjà vu is actually allowed, and doesn’t rip a hole in the fabric of the space time continuum). lol

  444. Mark Boyle says:

    Robert Hughes says:
    28 June, 2022 at 11:08 am

    What happened to the new post by Stu I could’ve swore I saw earlier this morning ? Don’t tell me he was * advised * to pull it , despite the CAVEAT that it was SATIRE ! As Stu said , it could only be interpreted as something else by bears of little brain ; and/or exocet offence-seeking * rockets *

    He’s daft enough to be using Positive Internet, who like Tucows, GoDaddy and all too many providers will pull anything or send an “OR ELSE!” to the site owner on the most minimal of complaints.

    Sign of the times.

    That said, there’s certain American based ones where the ‘triggered’ can complain till they’re blue in the face and all they’ll get back is ‘court sanctioned takedown request or detailed complaint of how exactly this breaches our Terms Of Service, or GYTF!’

  445. Mark Boyle says:

    Or, Robert, it could be he just changed his mind about the post!

  446. Robert Hughes says:

    “…it could be he just changed his mind about the post! ”

    Yip , that did occur to me MB .

    BTW Mark , a few weeks ago you referred to the ” flattened 4th aka ” The Devil’s Interval ” . Are you a musician ?

  447. James Che. says:

    Teresa May says that BJ is making Britain look bad over NI and the [international treaty ] by going back on his word with the issue of the northern Ireland border.

    He keeps breaking treaties,
    And westminster has a history of not being good at keeping there word with regards treaties.

    The phrase ” welshing on a deal” should be “Westministering on a deal”.

  448. James Che. says:


    Cheers for the link, thanks.

  449. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “What happened to the new post by Stu I could’ve swore I saw earlier this morning ? Don’t tell me he was * advised * to pull it , despite the CAVEAT that it was SATIRE ! As Stu said , it could only be interpreted as something else by bears of little brain ; and/or exocet offence-seeking * rockets *

    He’s daft enough to be using Positive Internet, who like Tucows, GoDaddy and all too many providers will pull anything or send an “OR ELSE!” to the site owner on the most minimal of complaints.”

    I pulled it because I just couldn’t be arsed with the hassle of worrying about it. The Scottish judicial system is now so crooked that even loaded with disclaimers I just couldn’t be sure, in a world where Mark Hirst and Dave Llewellyn have already been dragged through courts for staggeringly obvious jokes, and it’s not worth that for a daft throwaway music video.

    Your criticism of Positive Internet could not be further off the mark. In the 10 years they’ve been hosting Wings they’ve NEVER made the SLIGHTEST suggestion that I should pull or edit a post, even though their boss and I have very substantial political differences. Indeed, I chose them specifically for their extremely strong commitment to free speech. They’ve never been anything but 100% supportive and I have absolute and total confidence in them in that regard.

  450. Stuart MacKay says:

    Breeks @11:55am

    Likely The National gives the game away with:

    “It has been reported that Sturgeon is considering holding a “consultative” referendum, as opposed to a legally binding one, in a bid to circumvent potential legal issues.”

    So, just one more request, for one more mandate.

  451. Dan says:

    @ McDuff

    Aye, McCrone report aside, over and above producing enough to power oorselves, the 4,000,000 KW currently being created in Scotland and transferred to England at this moment could surely generate a bit of revenue for something or other.

    And seeing as it appears DOROTHY Devine has taken a wee rest from sundancing resulting in the rain being back oan, we have plenty water tae drink and grow oor oan scran with.
    Scotland has an extremely vast and diverse resources to population ratio, unlike oor southern neighbours.

  452. Ottomanboi says:

    «Heads will roll» «blood on the carpet» «this is war»…..beware the havent an original thought in their heads police are on the case.
    And omg, do not dare to use irony, cynical humour, sarcasm or plain old wit…
    No one has rights unless they’ve got a machine gun…ooooops!
    «Genghis Khan recognized that warfare was not a sporting contest or a mere match between rivals; it was a total commitment of one people against another. Victory did not come to the one who played by the rules; it came to the one who made the rules and imposed them on his enemy. Triumph could not be partial. It was complete»

  453. Wee Chid says:

    Stuart MacKay says:
    28 June, 2022 at 12:27 pm
    Breeks @11:55am

    Likely The National gives the game away with:

    “It has been reported that Sturgeon is considering holding a “consultative” referendum, as opposed to a legally binding one, in a bid to circumvent potential legal issues.”

    I thought they were all consultative and that the govt didn’t have to act on them – except in Scotland where the people are meant to be sovereign and, therefore, the opinion in a referendum would have to be enacted by the Scottish Govt. WM could then still say No – keeping us in a legal entanglement for years.

  454. robertkknight says:

    Westmobster’s flagrant disregard for international law/conventions bodes well for us – all we need is a Scottish Government with cahonies big enough to tear up the Treaty of Union and Bob’s your cross dressing aunty!

    Either way, I don’t hold much hope for She/Her being able to persuade Yoon opposition parties and local authorities to play along with any Indyref2 which lacks a S30. She painted herself/us into a corner on that previously with her great Brexit capitulation speech, so it’ll be fun watching her trying to eat her own words when the Yoon journos go on the offensive.

  455. DJ says:

    The Brexit referendum was consultative, I believe, and look what happened. No one questioned the result (except in Scotland and Northern Ireland – but they don’t count). What’s good for the goose etc …

  456. DJ says:

    And Rev,you’re right regarding this morning’s article. Why give them an inch when they will surely take a mile and a couple of pounds of flesh, too. Good call.

  457. Robert Hughes says:

    Aye , yr right Stu ; not worth the potential grief .

    What a state Scotland is in when even the most innocuous/satirical article or comment risks legal consequence . Fckn disgraceful .

    And this is before the HCB starts being enacted

  458. Andy Ellis says:

    @Wee Child 12.59 pm

    The Alternative Vote referendum in 2011 was legally binding because parliament made it so. If we’d voted in favour of the system proposed it would have had legal force.

    So far that’s the only UK referendum to have been made legally binding.

  459. Gregory Beekman says:

    If England, Wales and NI would each just refer to themselves as trans Scotland, then we could easily claim Scottish independence!

    Let that view set the heater alight! LOL!!

  460. WeeChid says:

    Andy Ellis says:
    28 June, 2022 at 1:47 pm

    Thanks. Could this one be made legally binding-or is that outwith the powers of the Scot.Parliament? Is that why we would, allegedly, need a S30?

  461. Stuart MacKay says:

    Wee Chid

    Well the whole idea behind referenda is that they are not legally binding so the government ignore the result if it wants to, though that would carry some peril at the next general election.

    Yet here we are with “consultative” always wrapped in quotes and the dreaded “legal/illegal” prefix attached to every reference.

    Since we’re a few minutes away from the hallowed event I think the biggest issue today will be decoding what the FM actually says. I bet it’s not as definitive or clear-cut as everybody expects.

  462. Dorothy Devine says:

    Daniel, I will be sundancing tomorrow because I am going to the Morven/Morvern penisula – some of my effort may bless you as well!
    Love and a big toothy smile , Dorothy

  463. Mark Boyle says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
    28 June, 2022 at 12:25 pm

    Your criticism of Positive Internet could not be further off the mark. In the 10 years they’ve been hosting Wings they’ve NEVER made the SLIGHTEST suggestion that I should pull or edit a post, even though their boss and I have very substantial political differences.

    Indeed, I chose them specifically for their extremely strong commitment to free speech. They’ve never been anything but 100% supportive and I have absolute and total confidence in them in that regard.

    I stand corrected, and as punishment will read all 788 posts by Gregor in your Silence Of The Sacrificial Lambs thread.

    Robert Hughes says:
    28 June, 2022 at 12:10 pm

    “…it could be he just changed his mind about the post! ”

    Yip , that did occur to me MB .

    BTW Mark , a few weeks ago you referred to the ” flattened 4th aka ” The Devil’s Interval ” . Are you a musician ?

    No, just a Bill Bailey fan – he’s done various routines around this, from it being a Hard Rock/Chug Metal staple to its popularity when making background music for “real crime documentaries” (ie. murder porn for tabloid readers) where whenever a photo of the murderer appears on screen the camera will zoom in after some pertinent point is made by the narrator as if you’re supposed to now see the “evil” in them.

    Black Sabbeth’s eponymous track, Metallica’s ‘Enter Sandman’ and Saint Seans’ ‘Dance Macabre’ are all good examples of this musical cliche in action.

  464. Breastplate says:

    Option 2 it is then.

  465. Breastplate says:

    Plan A option 2
    Plan B plebiscitary election in 2026.

  466. robertkknight says:

    FM Statement…

    Nice ‘words’ spoken…

    Let the ‘actions’ now back them up!

    I’m trying to control my optimism.

    Back to BarrheadBoy…

  467. Mountain shadow says:

    Seems like option 3 to me AND we will get legal clarity on whether Scots are sovereign or not.

    Struggling to find an issue to be honest.

  468. Bob Mack says:

    I didn’t think there was any more “wheezes” the FM could produce to delay Indy ,but making it sound like she was seriously doing something.

    How wrong was I ?. We are going to have a consultative referendum on whether we should be Independent.

    If we say yes then she is going to ask Boris or whoever to give us an official one thereafter. Ha ha ha ha. I,e back where we are now!!

    Mirrors ,smoke ,slight of hand. Take your pick. She would be a master of the shell game.

  469. robertkknight says:

    BarrheadBoy’s panel finding more holes in the FM statement than a Swiss Cheese in my local deli.

    Any fleeting optimism has disappeared like snow off a dyke in June.

    Smells of setting Indyref2 up to fail, blame Westmobster, then run a plebecite election to prop up the SNP’s numbers in London, yet again.

  470. Andy Ellis says:

    Referring the bill to the Supreme Court to put the matter beyond legal doubt is long overdue but welcome nonetheless. The commitment to making GE2024 is at least progress.

    The game’s afoot!

  471. Breastplate says:

    Just checked and apparently the next GE is January 25th 2025 but is a moveable date.

  472. Breastplate says:

    We should have had these questions answered in court years ago but we are where we are, at least it’s progress even if it is at a snail’s pace.
    The Supreme Court will find for Westminster and against Scotland so we are left with the plebiscitary election.

  473. Gregory Beekman says:

    Why didn’t she do this years ago?

  474. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Why didn’t she do this years ago?”

    Why indeed?

  475. Breastplate says:

    Gregory Beekman,
    No idea why the delay but the plebiscitary GE looks like the most realistic point of constitutional contact.
    The GE has to be held before 24/01/25, so likely to be 2024 as Andy Ellis points out.

  476. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Thanks. Could this one be made legally binding-or is that outwith the powers of the Scot.Parliament? Is that why we would, allegedly, need a S30?”

    No referendum anywhere in the UK is ever legally binding.

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