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Beware of liars

Posted on June 15, 2022 by

Even when you’re retired, some things are too journalistically offensive to let pass, such as this piece of absolute garbage we just saw from The National today.

The paper’s anonymous reporter set off all our red warning lights at once.

Here’s an alertness test for you, readers: see if you can see what’s missing from this “debunk” of Dowey’s claim.

Did you (fail to) spot them? Strikingly absent from the piece are any numbers to back up “The Jouker” and Ross Greer’s claim that Dowey was wrong. And that only makes one sound, folks: BULLSHIT KLAXON! BULLSHIT KLAXON! ALL HANDS ON DECK!

So let’s fill in the gaps, shall we?

As far as we can determine, six pro-independence parties stood in the election in the constituency ballot, the list ballot or both: the SNP, the Scottish Greens, Alba, Scotia Future, the Libertarian Party,  and Restore Scotland, with the last three of those also being pro-Brexit parties.

(Every other party was either explicitly anti-independence – Labour, Tories, Lib Dems, All For Unity, Independent Green Voice, Abolish The Scottish Parliament, Reform UK, UKIP, Communist, ReclaimSDP – or in the case of a couple of tiny fringe parties had no stated view and therefore supported the status quo by default. The Scottish Family Party, for example, who got 18,819 votes, the largest of the microparties, said they were neutral on independence itself but were opposed to another referendum in this Parliament, which is de facto Unionist.)

These are their votes:

CONSTITUENCY

SNP 1,291,204
Green 34,990
Libertarian 1,913
Restore Scotland 1,192
Scotia Future 1,032

(Total: 1,330,331 out of 2,706,761 constituency votes, or 49.2%.)

LIST 

SNP 1,094,374
Green 220,324
Alba 44,913
Libertarian 4,987
Restore Scotland 1,149
Scotia Future 451

(Total: 1,366,198 out of 2,712,783 list votes, or 50.4%.)

So “The Jouker” is quite correct in their assertion that Unionists won the constituency vote but pro-indy parties won the list. All we need to do now, then, is total them up to see who won overall.

The figures above show that the six pro-indy parties got a total of 2,696,529 votes out of a total of 5,419,544 valid votes cast in the election. Inconveniently for “The Jouker”, that’s 49.8%. Dowey is correct. The Unionists won.

Pro-indy parties would have needed 2,709,773 votes in total to get 50%+1. That’s 13,244 short. Even if we attributed every vote for independent candidates to the pro-indy side (and we have no grounds for doing so), that only adds 11,795 – not enough.

Alternatively, if you bend over backwards to try to help “The Jouker” out by removing the parties who explicitly said they were neutral on independence and/or a referendum (Women’s Equality and Freedom Alliance), pro-indy parties get 2,696,529 out of 5,410,223 votes (still 49.8%).

The article is simply a lie. Regardless of your opinion on independence, it’s piss-poor journalism and even The National should be ashamed of it.

(It later transpired that Greer had made a crooked count, adding up the votes of only five of the 26 parties who stood in the election – 12 of whom contested every region. His figures discounted a total of 133,175 votes for parties who had a stated position on independence and/or a second referendum one way or the other.)

One of the lessons we’ve tried to drum into Wings readers for the last decade is to always, always, look for what you’re not being told. And an article about numbers that doesn’t have any numbers in it is about as easy as that job gets.

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    336 to “Beware of liars”

    1. Ruglonian says:

      Nicely done

    2. Confused says:

      You can prove anything with facts.

    3. Kcor says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell, good to see you back in form.

      But sadly, all your efforts have been in vein.

      The current leader of the SNP has corrupted all the institutions of state beyond redemption.

      No banana republic ever reached anywhere near the depth as reached by Scotland under the regime of the biggest betrayer in Scottish history.

    4. Sharny Dubs says:

      He shoots! He scores!

      Cheered up my day no end. Used the subscribe to the National when it first came out, and left a copy laying in the local pub every day, but alas! It’s become the worst of the worst, well done for showing it up?

    5. Dave M says:

      Given the utter rot that is published in The National, I’m not surprised by this.

    6. 100%yes says:

      I got a free subscription to The Rag for a year, after two months into my subscription I wrote to The Rag and cancelled my free subscription. The Paper is biased in its reporting and using fake headlines to sell papaers and it has no interest in Independence or an opinion from any other Pro-indy party’s, because of this I’ve never went back on there website since or bought a paper, the money is better spent else where.

    7. Effigy says:

      As always you are right Rev but in U.K. politics everything that has been won in recent years has been built on great whopping lies.

      Tories will cut taxes and make Britain great again.
      Build it better.
      £350 Million per week to the NHS.
      Boris brought back a better Brexit Deal.
      Independent Scotland wouldn’t have pensions, blood transfusions, transplant lists.
      Our oil is the type that runs out in the 70’s, 80’s, 90’s, 00’s, the Teens and the 20’s.
      Cummings drove to Barnard Castle to test his eye sight
      Boris was never at a lockdown party.
      Priti Patel isn’t a bully so says a £375,000 non disclosed clause.
      Boris saw Gov payouts to Blond American Jenifer Accura but wasn’t having sex with her.

    8. Ruby says:

      Why did she say this? What was she trying to prove?

    9. Frank Gillougley says:

      Rev, your posts are a must read. Roughly 2 a week now. Is this a sign? Light years better than the Andy Ellis/Ruby et al private chat room the site has/had? become.

    10. McDuff says:

      You are a journalistic terrier rev.
      If these figures remain it doesn’t bode well for a referendum in ’23.
      We have to win by at least 10% to have a credible victory.

    11. Chas says:

      I find the whole ‘political’ scene so depressing just now. With the announcement of a referendum next October, believe that if you want, it should be a time for some optimism. However I do not see it or feel it.

      We have a mendacious clown in Westminster who I genuinely thinks that rules and laws do not apply to him because of his sense of entitlement and upbringing. He is backed by a bunch of incompetents who would have been fired long ago if working in the real world. Amazingly, a lot of people still support him including 200+ of his Tory MP’s. It beggars belief.

      Then we come to the Scottish Government and almost exactly the same applies, excluding the upbringing. How is Harvie in the position he is in? Who voted him in to that position? Simply political expedience by Sturgeon.

      Like many, I feel that after years of promising, Sturgeon has now been backed into a corner and the referendum announcement is the only out for her at this time. I never watched her performance in front of the cameras, I can’t look or listen to her, but, by all accounts it was extremely lack lustre. I did glance at the stats/graphs produced which contained absolutely nothing pertaining to Scotland!!! Is she really up for the fight?

      If by some miracle, a referendum does take place and Sturgeon loses, she is finished. She knows this and will find whatever reason she can to ensure it does not happen. The gravy train must continue at all costs.

      Apart from the brain dead sheep, more and more people are gradually realising that it is Sturgeon who is the problem. She has surrounded herself by sycophants who will never challenge her position.

      Difficult times ahead for Scotland and the UK especially as our failed leaders will do whatever they need to do to retain power. The Tory’s will kick Bunter out soon enough. It is what they do. Who is going to get rid of Sturgeon?

    12. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Why did she say this? What was she trying to prove?”

      She was – quite correctly – debunking some embarrassing idiot shite Angus Robertson said on GMS.

    13. Hatuey says:

      What a brass neck for “The Jouker” and National. Don’t they need to print an apology or something? Do the normal rules of journalism apply to fanzines?

      It’s like watching the old Tango adverts… You know when you’ve been tango’d, Mr Jouker. And we know too.

      Embarrassing stuff. Classic wings.

    14. Mark Boyle says:

      Hatuey says:
      16 June, 2022 at 9:30 am

      What a brass neck for “The Jouker” and National. Don’t they need to print an apology or something?

      It’s already an apology for a newspaper.

    15. Robert Hughes says:

      The Notional – proving it can be politically innumerate as well as politically illiterate . * Respect * . Is there anything left in Scotland – Party , MSM , Institution – that could be described as honest ; other than yourself/WOS and a handful of ( non-SNP lapdog ) bloggers ? Answer on a forthcoming * Paper * . ( nb ” forthcoming ” subject to weather conditions , could be delayed if it rains between now and towards the end of 2023 )

    16. Josef Ó Luain says:

      Fibs a-go-go!

    17. George Ferguson says:

      Speaking of numbers the odds of a successful IndyRef2 is drifting. Favouritism now on the Union side. (Oddschecker). I note the bookies have the jump on the rest of us. Question is stay or leave the UK. No need to test the Question with the electoral commission then!. Interesting analysis by Prof Martin on the 9 last night. Compare that to Prof Adam Tomkins analysis reported in the National (Not insurmountable article). Ask two constitutional lawyers the same question get 2 different perspectives.

    18. Ruby says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      16 June, 2022 at 9:13 am

      “Why did she say this? What was she trying to prove?”

      She was – quite correctly – debunking some embarrassing idiot shite Angus Robertson said on GMS.

      Cheers Stu. I was doing my best to be a good Wings pupil by asking what I wasn’t being told 🙂 and also because I was genuinely interested.

      Thought maybe your last paragraph was a bit of a test.

      If she were trying to claim that the voting results proved that the electorate did not want a 2nd IndyRef/independence how accurate would she be?

    19. stuart mctavish says:

      Liars beware,
      Cough! cough!
      🙂

    20. Ruby says:


      George Ferguson says:
      16 June, 2022 at 10:05 am

      Speaking of numbers the odds of a successful IndyRef2 is drifting. Favouritism now on the Union side. (Oddschecker). I note the bookies have the jump on the rest of us. Question is stay or leave the UK. No need to test the Question with the electoral commission then!. Interesting analysis by Prof Martin on the 9 last night. Compare that to Prof Adam Tomkins analysis reported in the National (Not insurmountable article). Ask two constitutional lawyers the same question get 2 different perspectives.

      Madre de Mi Alma!

      Looks as if we are heading for another ‘pantomime style debate’ with one side of experts saying ‘oh no it wont’ and the other saying ‘oh yes it will’

      Did Crawford & Boyle who claimed Scotland ceased to exist in 1707 & became lesser England or some such shit not prove that you get the ‘perspective’ that you pay for? It was rumoured that the UK Gov paid megabucks for that particular piece of information.

      Adam Tomkins (known as Professor Pish in the not too distant past) was the one who told us quite categorically during IndyRef14 that the UK would never, ever, not in a million years leave the EU or SSS.

    21. Andy Ellis says:

      @ George Ferguson 10.05 am

      The thing is the question of the “legality” of Holyrood holding a non S30 sanctioned referendum has been debated ever since 2012 in the run up to indyref1. I remember the discussions at the time and the difference of opinion amongst constitutional and legal experts at the time.

      That’s exactly why the Scottish Government should have put the matter beyond doubt by testing it in court: at least if the court’s decision was negative, the movement as a whole could have made alternative preparations for exactly the situation we find ourselves in now.

      Of course the continued uncertainty suits the purposes of the devolutionists in the SNP and Scottish Greens: their commitment to independence is very much secondary to their desire to stay in power. Many of the political light weights in both parties know that their access to sinecures, influence and resources will be much harder post independence.

    22. Ruby says:

      Trying to remember what it was that Adam Tomkins wrote in the ‘Spectator’ that merited him being nick-named Professor Pish.

      I do remember that the Spectator had a very distinctive front cover.

      An example of life imitating art? 🙂

    23. Ruby says:

      Apologies Adam Tomkins nickname was
      ‘The professor of pish’

      I have found more info re article but as I gone off topic way too early (sorry) I’ll wait until later to post links.

    24. George Ferguson says:

      @Andy Ellis 10:58am
      I am 100% in agreement with you.

    25. Robert Graham says:

      I believe the announcement of a second referendum coincidentally shortly after Princess Nicolas trip to the USA has more or less confirmed this is her exit move her swan song .

      This imposter has managed to convince English people she’s working night and day preparing a cast iron case that will convince the Scottish public it’s in their best interest to back her and her government to lead them to the promised land.

      Back to reality everyone here knows little or no preparation has been made and the timeline in order to get a viable case prepared and presented to the public has been totally ignored.

      I believe this is last part of her tour of duty and her statement has already been prepared and it will say LOOK I TRIED so it’s now time for someone else to take over.

      JOB DONE.

    26. Gregory Beekman says:

      Pedant’s Question

      How is win defined here?

      The fact that Tories+Labour+LibDem+Other collectively got more votes than the SNP+ group does not automatically equate to a ‘win’ in electoral terms.

      Even though the MSP in question uses the phrase ‘Unionist parties’, they weren’t standing as one block, so meaningless.

      If pro-independence parties ‘lost’ the election then why do they have more MSPs than the ‘winning’ ‘Unionist parties’?

      And is our election system fatally flawed if Unionist parties get more votes than Indy parties but get less elected representatives?

      Yours confused…

    27. James Che. says:

      I notice a difference in how some think about Scottish independence, and it plays out in the response in commentary

      Being a an independent country means and does what it says on the tin,
      You manage everything yourselves, the good, bad an everything in between
      Responsibility, losses and rewards.
      Your own government with no overseer in charge of us,
      A truely independent country and nation of people.

      It seems the other faction are seeking [ a half way house ] in becoming a republic section of GB like Labour suggested moons ago.

    28. Breeks says:

      Also kinda grates that the National is now falling over itself to describe all the alternative routes to Independence conveniently glossing over the years squandered following Sturgeon’s grotesque assertion that a Section 30 route to a Referendum was Scotland’s only lawful option.

      Sturgeon should give Martin Keatings his money back for one thing, and an apology for wasting his time.

      Angus MacNeil needs an apology too for all the stick and runaround he was given for daring to propose discussion of a Plan B.

      Chris McEleny booed on stage at SNP Conference for wishing to discuss the flaws of a Section 30 strategy.

      Every sincere Independentist denied the right to discuss strategy at SNP “Conferences” should be given a grovelling apology too.

      Then there is all the disgusting and vile abuse heaped in ALBA by the Dark YES snitches and shitstirrers for ALBA having the gall to dispute Sturgeon’s deeply flawed myopic view of the world.

      The SSRG exists to challenge Sturgeon’s blinkered and Constitutionally challenged view of the world.

      Not a word about that eh? Course not. Seems The National doesn’t just bring you news, it can also carry some of it away.

      Where were you when we needed you National? Oh, that’s right, crawling up Sturgeon’s backside.

    29. Alf Baird says:

      Ruby @ 10:51 am

      “Looks as if we are heading for another ‘pantomime style debate’ with one side of experts saying ‘oh no it wont’ and the other saying ‘oh yes it will’”

      The main role of the colonizer is to make any prospect of independence seem impossible (Albert Memmi).

    30. James Che. says:

      This observation has made me wonder if these two opposing concepts is what will cause a cleft in the way we go forward seeking our future,

      Uk seem to have a suicidal tendency towards jumping of the economy cliff on behalf of all the UK,
      If we look back to a good number of years,
      We see employment, less people on handouts, and pensioners getting what they paid in for, no wokery, or trans issues, no separation by skin tone, and everyone knew what a women was.
      Since 2008 we see Great Britain’s people beginning to suffer considerable and with a more rapid decline.

      The British Parliament no longer has its attentions on looking after British, it vision is further afield.
      It never had the intention or actions of seeing the other devolved corners of Britain thriving.
      England as one of those four counties of Britain is fast joining the devolved nations in suffering.

      Out of necessity Scotland will have to be fully independent, A republic will not work.
      Unlike NS.
      Whom try’x saving all of Britain, while westminster runs the circus.

      At some point we have to say to ourselves, at least one part of Britain has the opportunity to break away an survive this long downward trend of Britain and clusterf..k bad management.

      So i wonder why any one of us here in Scotland consider hanging on by finger tips

    31. Sharny Dubs says:

      There will not be another referendum until BoZo tells NS to pull the trigger.

      And that will be when he is certain it will result as he wants.

    32. John Main says:

      Great to see Rev Stu using his considerable journalistic powers to take a stand for facts and the truth.

      Great to see BTL comment supporting him in this.

      Far too often, facts and the truth go right out the window here.

      I would take issue with lumping the Green votes in with the pro-Indy total. Sure, they SAY they are pro-Indy, but their politicians are carpet-baggers first and foremost. They have hitched themselves to the SNP for convenience sake, not out of principle.

      IMO nobody who puts Indy first chooses to vote Green. For that reason, I don’t believe your average Green voter is a shoe-in for Yes at IndyRef2.

      To be fair, that’s maybes how it should be. Which will be better for the environment? Yes, or No. Show your working.

    33. John Main says:

      @James Che. says: 16 June, 2022 at 12:01 pm

      “Being an independent country means and does what it says on the tin,
      You manage everything yourselves, the good, bad an everything in between
      Responsibility, losses and rewards.
      Your own government with no overseer in charge of us,
      A truely independent country and nation of people.”

      Total agreement from me.

    34. Republicofscotland says:

      In my opinion this a bit of a non-story we know the National is good at spinning the truth, and we know that other papers in the past have twisted the truth to suit unionist needs.

      However on this occasion as much as I loathe Sturgeon and her fanzine, its being reported as positive for indy, even though its a bit of a lie.

    35. Mark Boyle says:

      John Main says:
      16 June, 2022 at 3:15 pm

      I would take issue with lumping the Green votes in with the pro-Indy total. Sure, they SAY they are pro-Indy, but their politicians are carpet-baggers first and foremost. They have hitched themselves to the SNP for convenience sake, not out of principle.

      Debatable whether they are even greens – they appear to be more a coalition of pretentious coffee bar Guardian reading lefties and sexual deviants whose actual interest in the environment appears minimal.

      The English party has always had trouble from the non-eco element hijacking them (Big Flame/Green Flame, etc) to the extent of the farce of “Green” councillors opposing solar power farms in their wards, but not to the lock, stock and barrel extent that has been the case up here.

      Sure, Scotland’s Green’s have always had some rotten to the core apples in the barrel like Shona Baird, but that so many are getting away with having an eco-label on a non-eco party shows how lazy voters have become in swallowing them at face value.

    36. John Main says:

      @Republicofscotland says : 16 June, 2022 at 3:41 pm

      “In my opinion this a bit of a non-story …

      … its being reported as positive for indy, even though its a bit of a lie”

      Of course, Republic. The ends justifies the means.

      The rationale of the tyrant and mass-murderer through human history.

    37. James Che. says:

      Have to the greens are not so green, they have just hijacked the name,

      They all have cars or big buses to travel from A to B if its a longer distance, they all have plastic mobile phones, sometime two, etc
      And they all go on hols by flying,
      And the greens mobilise many different fuel driven vehicles when going to a protests.
      Most have oil or gas central heating in their houses,
      Most have Concrete block driveways

      They talk the talk, but don’t do the walk.
      I can not see the point of being a pretend political party
      No wonder they find comfort teaming up with the snp.

    38. James Che. says:

      The policies of greens, snp and labour entwine so closely they are indistinguishible.

    39. Republicofscotland says:

      “Of course, Republic. The ends justifies the means.”

      Main.

      If you mean by that, it adds a wee bit of positivity to the indy cause, even though its dressed up, then yes, you’re not going to tell me the unionist sided news rags don’t spin it to suit their purposes.

    40. Ottomanboi says:

      Oh what a tangled web the deceivers weave.

      https://archive.ph/G4Oy6

      https://archive.ph/vAyhy

      Hopefully, they will be ensnared and devitalized by it.

    41. James Che. says:

      The set up for voting in Scotland was never meant to secure Scottish independence parties,
      is meant to destroy any leanings that way,

      When we actually study the system,
      The tories are not just in Scotland, but a large party with media in their pockets, easier funding and a bigger financial pocket.
      When we look at labour they have the same set up as tories.
      As most union parties do,
      All these parties are across Britain and have many resources available at their disposal.

      When we see the size of Scottish voter electorate just in numbers or parties alone, whom are in main parties in Scotland only in a smaller geographical area,
      We will always have a disadvantage in electorial votes

      One of our other problems is that a lot of people working for companies and for the British government based in Scotland are not going to vote themselves out of work,
      be it Councils waiting for subsidiary money and Barnett money ,civil servants the Privatised NHS, Or the MOD workers.
      And they make up large numbers when gathered together.

      When we see all the voting problems in Scotland, the percentage is not so much to be ashamed of,

      We could do better, we wont sit by and let ole brit nic sabotarge / destroy Scotland any more, we have just about had enough, it is taken a long time to learn NS is moonlighting and working for another company .
      but let us not beat ourselves over the head, for circumstances will never equal out under the present electorial voting system. Or a devolved government.

    42. George Ferguson says:

      I don’t know if this is off topic or not but it does involve being aware of liars. 13 February 11:44pm on Wings, after several head scratching exchanges with Dan on how you could short cable a Ferry. We finally learned then, that the decision to move the control panels had been made post Nationalisation. So not a legacy issue as reported by the Scot Gov. To an additional cost of 8.7 million. But make your own mind up. A shipping cable contractor with a global reputation for installing cables or the Scot Gov. See today’s proceedings for a clue.

    43. Corrado Mella says:

      An. Independence. Referendum. Won. By. Yes. Does. Not. Make. Scotland. Independent.

      Case in point, Brexshit.
      The 2016 EU Ref gave the sociopaths UK Government a mandate and leverage to enact the shitstorm policy.
      It’s 2022 and they’re still botching stuff up.

      A Yes victory of an Independence Referendum changes nothing and can die of a slow death if the sociopaths Britnazi Establishment UK Government doesn’t care or cooperate, or the “Scottish” counterpart cannot find a spine.

      We Scots must be ready and willing to bypass this melee.
      We’re four years late already.

    44. wullie says:

      Corrado Mella
      We bypass the melee by using the Scottish constitution which is written in The Claim of Right. This is Scotlands legal way to dissolve the union. http://www.salvo .scot has all the information

    45. sarah says:

      O/T. Cheer yourselves up by watching a 2 minute video clip of a young Billy Connolly on the theme of “how to use up all that left-over venison”. A guaranteed belly laugh! I came across it on broadcastingscotland.scot.

    46. Dan says:

      @ George Ferguson (aka Tannadice Boy)

      A link back to the short cabling issue conversation. As mentioned back then, any decision with regard to retrospective divergence or alteration from approved plans should also have factored in costings.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-silence-of-the-sacrificial-lambs/comment-page-1/#comment-2685026

      I think you were taking a break from btl commenting since that discussion, but more recently I was speaking to a welder fabricator acquaintance and they were saying the chat in some oil rig tea rooms with fellow welder fabricators that had worked on the ferries, was that the hull had started to be constructed prior to the final plan drawings being approved. And that even at an early stage distortion on the structure was occurring which required additional off plan supports to be fabricated and installed to strengthen the partially built hull.

      I commented about that matter a couple of months or so back when the hoo haa about the missing ferry contracts was in the news, and suggested that possibly the discrepancy between the hull starting to be built prior to the plans being approved might account for some of the lack of transparency on furnishing all documents for scrutiny.

    47. sarah says:

      @ Dan at 9.25: the whole ferries build saga gets worse and worse. Surely nobody should start to build something before the drawings are finalised?

    48. George Ferguson says:

      @Dan 9:25pm
      I took a leaf out of the Andy Ellis book and started using my own name. Time to stand up and be counted. I understand there are over a hundred critical engineering deficiencies. The Hull being one of them. Documents need to be laid out and put on the table. Safety critical systems cannot be compromised to avoid political embarrassment. It’s always the cover up that’s worse. We see a track record of a lack of transparency from the Scot Gov on many occasions. It’s not good when public safety is at stake.

    49. robertkknight says:

      Britnic’s fanzine well and truly filleted by the Rev.

      Does it come with chips, or is it merely the wrapping?

      Stopped buying it after the Alphabetites, who despite having had their day before a jury, were invited back for a second round of mud slinging.

    50. Robert Hughes says:

      Are we in the calm after the calm before next the calm ?

      Should we ” STAY CALM AND THINK OF STAYING CALMER ” ?

      Are we becalmed ?

      Could Susan Calman calm a man ?

      Cannae wait for the next Paper ; be like following a gripping Netflix series ,just much less gripping .

      Breaking Calm Season 60 should be a belter

    51. sarah says:

      The National is a bit of a mixture.

      Credit to them that they do publish letters covering the whole range of opinions AND some articles on the side of truth e.g. when they based a supportive article on my letter reporting how badly Craig Murray was being treated in Saughton.

      BUT there are glaring failings e.g. they should be educating their readership on the several avenues open to independence, and they should have supported Alba’s strategy for the 2021 election. They should have reported the defence witnesses for Alex Salmond. We would be free of the Union now if they had exposed the falsity of the SNP 1 and 2 strategy. And we would be free of some poisonous personalities, and their legislation, if the National had reported the Alex Salmond case properly.

      I know they have a business to run but I am sure they would sell more papers if they were a truly campaigning, ethical, journal instead of producing 50 front pages pushing a lie.

    52. Ian Brotherhood says:

      ‘Does the prospect of Nicola Sturgeon remaining First Minister put you off voting for Scottish independence?’

      https://twitter.com/ianbhood/status/1537566779962179585

    53. Mark Boyle says:

      sarah says:
      16 June, 2022 at 10:30 pm

      The National is a bit of a mixture.

      Credit to them that they do publish letters covering the whole range of opinions AND some articles on the side of truth e.g. when they based a supportive article on my letter reporting how badly Craig Murray was being treated in Saughton.

      Just to warn you Sarah that if you send a letter to ANY Newsquest publication, it runs the risk of being printed in The National – which of course some people would never wish to happen for much the same reason they’d rather not have a letter in the Morning Star.

      It’s incredibly poor form, as the convention has always been letters to a newspaper are for said newspaper only regardless of how many other titles are in its stable. Certainly no newspaper would treat any Press Release in such a manner, but letters from Joe Public are fair game in Newsquest’s book.

    54. Effigy says:

      I had visited Newcastle a few time and liked the people I met there.
      They seemed be very sociable with politics generally left of centre and proud of their community.

      Tonight on Question Time the audience majority seemed to support Boris?
      It’s what a character does break rules who cares about party gate. Applause.

      Next the hate against immigrants. We shouldn’t have any here, they get 4 star hotels etc.
      The French are bad letting these people reach these shores.

      The former Red Regions are Tory Blue and leaning further that way even with a lying toad as PM, 10 years of Austerity, 10% inflation, 5 Mortgage rate rises in 6 months and record debt levels.

      The gulf between the mindset of English and Scottish voters is so massive we cannot continue to part of the same parliament.

      England is almost permanent blue Tory and May give the odd go at it with a Red Right Wing
      Blair Brown photocopy of Tory.

      Scotland thankfully has never given the Tories a majority in 70 years.
      We are totally against the Party of the rich, for the rich by the rich.

    55. Breeks says:

      100%Yes says:
      16 June, 2022 at 10:43 pm
      https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/nicola-sturgeon-would-accept-scotland-equivalent-of-northern-ireland-protocol-in-a-heartbeat/ar-AAYxMyj?li=AAnZ9Ug

      Sturgeon had the same opportunity as Northern Ireland to cite an International Agreement being compromised and breached by Brexit, and to turn that legitimate and lawful grievance into a redoubtable backstop which left Brexit compromised and untenable, not the International agreement.

      Northern Ireland had one line in the Good Friday Agreement which forbade the return of any Border infrastructure, and they made it count.

      Scotland had the Treaty of Union, with one sovereign entity voting for Brexit, and the other voting against. A Scottish backstop wouldn’t have returned the equivalent of a NI Protocol, a Scottish Backstop would have seen the Treaty of Union torn up and Scotland emerging from Brexit vindicated as an Independent Nation of sovereign people more than likely still in Europe.

      All Sturgeon had to do was stand firm and hold her ground, but instead she capitulated and sold Scotland’s sovereign interests down the river, while securing sweet fk all for Scotland.

      Northern Ireland stood firm and are reaping the benefits of International support. Scotland thanks to Sturgeon’s incompetence and cowardice now has ugly and dangerous precedents set to compromise our Constitutional Sovereignty, and we still have the idiot and her cancel culture muppets who let it all happen “defending” our interests.

      Sturgeon is out of her depth, Constitutionality illiterate and steering Scotland towards even greater disaster. If she cannot be persuaded to stand down, she should be impeached.

    56. McDuff says:

      Breeks

      In a nutshell.

    57. Dorothy Devine says:

      Ian B, I desperately want a leader who has Scottish Independence at his core , breathes fire and brimstone at those who would thwart it and that is not Ms Sturgeon of the Stonewall/Green Notional Party.

      I want my country free to make it’s own errors and enjoy it’s own successes , one which looks after old ,young, feckless and incapable , which encourages the arts , the sciences and all others in between.

    58. Republicofscotland says:

      Alex Salmond being gracious and the better man, and putting Scotland first, in the hope that Sturgeon isn’t just dangling another indyref carrot.

      “FORMER first minister Alex Salmond has said personal differences with Nicola Sturgeon are insignificant compared to the “national cause” of Scotland becoming independent.

      Speaking to Sky News political editor Beth Rigby on Thursday, Salmond revealed he would not let their “personal difficulties” stand in the way of any independence campaign.

      “They’re insignificant compared to the national cause of Scotland becoming independent, to which I and Nicola Sturgeon have devoted our lives,” he said.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20216894.personal-difficulties-nicola-sturgeon-wont-affect-indyref2-alex-salmond-tells-sky-news%2F

    59. Dorothy Devine says:

      RoS, unfortunately it is not reciprocated – the lady has taken every opportunity to continue smearing and I very much doubt her intentions regarding Scotland.

    60. Breeks says:


      Republicofscotland says:
      17 June, 2022 at 9:20 am

      Alex Salmond being gracious and the better man, and putting Scotland first, in the hope that Sturgeon isn’t just dangling another indyref carrot.

      Aye, a golden opportunity for Sturgeon to reciprocate, and swell her own personal crusade with the wealth of knowledge, strategy and tactical nous of the wider YES Campaign which she’s done so much to alienate.

      I have flat zero confidence in an Section 30 route, but a route to Indy begun on that basis should readily escalate into a constitutional dispute, which puts the Claim of Right, and it’s exponents, front and centre in the campaign. We will then be in with a chance.

      Will Sturgeon be gracious? Hmmm…. I feel a bet coming on…

    61. Robert Graham says:

      o/t but relevant

      Government figures as of May 2022

      The government’s yellow card reporting system has recorded 463.284 incidents of serious or adverse reactions to the widely used serum that was rolled out to prevent the spread of a air borne infection, the biggest mass inoculation ever undertaken.

      Not one person has been compensated for injuries incurred because government’s in every country have indemnified every drug producer , no one to blame, no one person or company up for prosecution or held liable for the cost of the on going medical attention required.

      This one concoction has killed or injured more people than every other vaccine ever produced since vaccines were introduced and not one person has taken responsibility or been jailed , no compensation has been paid .

      John Mason one of the three SNP members of the COVID committee appointed to the Scottish parliament seems to think this is a great laugh and dismisses as not being a big deal he then went on to provoke people who pointed to the figures supplied by the government well why haven’t people sued,

      Aye who or what do they fkn sue Mason . Yah prick .

    62. Breeks says:

      Given there’s no such thing as UK Law, there is Scots Law in Scotland and English/Welsh Law south of the Border, who’s law is broken for a Scottish referendum to be declared illegal?

      It surely cannot be Scots Law, because under Scotland’s Constitution the Scottish people are sovereign and can express their sovereign opinion whenever they like. Indeed, even under English Law and UK Parliamentary Convention, the Scottish people are recognised as Sovereign too. The Claim of Right is not disputed, and even the unwritten convention of UK Parliamentary Sovereignty relies on Scotland’s implicit consent “deemed” to be given.

      So is it some wayward misfire of English Law? If so, then what jurisdiction does ANY English Law claim to have in Scotland?

      Since it has been proven that the Prime Minister of Westminster hasn’t the power to disobey Scotland’s Court of Session, prorogue his own Parliament and remove itself from scrutiny by the people his Parliament serves, (a Scottish Constitutional doctrine beyond the UK Supreme Court’s jurisdiction), then on what basis does this same Prime Minister claim the power to deem a Scottish Constitutional Referendum unlawful?

      The sovereign people of Scotland can quite properly tell this ill-informed colonial upstart to go and royally “pleasure” himself.

    63. sarah says:

      @ Breeks: Scottish law in Scotland and English/Welsh in England/Wales.. so how can a Scottish referendum be declared illegal?”.

      Nicola Sturgeon has said a Scottish referendum would be illegal, as we all know. It’s not Johnson stopping a vote – it’s NS.

      And of course, as you say, she is totally wrong.

    64. Effigy says:

      Why would Boris need a third ethics advisor?
      You would need to have or use ethics at some point to justify using such a thing.

      LBC Breakfast Tory Nik Ferrari stirring up hate for railway workers strike.
      Full of English callers incapable of joined up thinking.

      If your job is threatened and losing it puts the public in greater danger wouldn’t you react.
      Yes Train drivers seem to have a good pay but surely over many years they have had to justify
      what they receive and if the general workforce say no to a 10% plus pay cut we need unions to fight against it and then we can all point at what they receive as fair.

      Central London Ambulance worker has to get wife up at 3am to drive him to work and pay congestion charges and with her shifts she can get as little as 3 hours sleep.

      Drop the charges for essential works and let them park free near their HQs.

      Sadiq Khan demands office workers return to London!
      Why? He gets extortionate business rates, congestion and parking charges.
      The home workers struggling financially save thousands on transport cost.
      More time with family, less stress, don’t need office clothes or generate city pollution.

      Nothing in the U.K. is about the people because they are stupid and don’t really count.

      Next we will have Patel’s pensioners on planes to Rwanda to stop their payments.

    65. stuart mctavish says:

      @Sarah

      It rather begs question whether all MSPs are under same obligation as government ministers to take legal advice before potentially misleading parliament though (either by implied tradition or explicitly via the ministerial code) and, if so, whether Douglas Ross’s legal advice approving his question referring to SNP government setting a date for

      ‘an illegal referendum in just 16 months time’

      is discoverable in full or part under, say, rules relating to the proper use of short money (ie would it be improper to spend short money* on seeking such advice from firms not used to practising Scottish law?).

      * or even money belonging to third parties with a vested interest

    66. Republicofscotland says:

      “Prime Minister claim the power to deem a Scottish Constitutional Referendum unlawful?”

      Breeks.

      Johnson is just chancing his arm, its illegal and undemocratic for him to stand in the way of a second indyref, the fault however lies with Sturgeon for not pushing Johnson on it.

    67. James Che. says:

      One thing NS did do that I am sure she never intended to, was her failure to bring it to the attention of the EU that Scotland voted differently on Brexit from England,

      It actually Broke the Treaty of the union,
      But only if Westminster continued down its path of ignoring the other half of the treaty of the union,

      It would have been hard suggesting the treaty might be broken in a court of any kind, unlike friendly journalist to Alex, whom went to jail for what he may think rather than what cid happen.

      By Letting Englands Parliament continue on its journey of breaking the treaty of the union by acting and over riding the Scottish half of that treaty based on fact rather than supposition..
      It allowed Westminster to actually commit the crime.
      Rather than saying Well you might have thought about doing the crime. But we can’t prove it.
      We now can prove it, this Is one more string in our Legal bow.

      Westminster Acted as an English only Parliament, which the treaty of the union does not allow for.As it does when it retains reserved matters to its self in England from Scotland.

      The Scottish Constitution of long standing and wrote into the treaty of the union DOES NOT SAY we need England’s nor Westminsters permission for a section 30,
      Nor I may add the EU’s

      The Way the EU and the Westminster handled the negotiations with out Scotland at the Table broke the Treaty of a union articles agreement,

      The British parliament existence and continuation can only be held or viewed in a legal context of two parliaments making an agreement to come together to work as one,

      But not as a English Only Parliament.
      Westminsters arrogance of believing the 1707 treaty of union converted it into a hierarchy English Parliament is not wrote into the articles of the treaty of the union,

      Just the opposite,
      Scotland is the one with a ” claim of right” written into the treaty of the union.

    68. James Che. says:

      The fault does not lie with BJ or Brit Nic.
      Neither of them are sovereign in their parliaments to act upon anything on behalf of the Scots.

      It is the Scots that have not acted upon their Sovereign position due to having no confidence or knowledge of of their position.

    69. James Che. says:

      May I add the supreme court in England is not supreme in Scotland over Scots Law under the terms and articles of the treaty of the union.
      Thats English Law.
      Bought in many many years after the treaty was signed.

      Why would sovereign Scots want an english court to decide their future as an illegal overseer of Scots law.

    70. crisiscult says:

      Do Scots want a referendum asks the media. No, opinion polls say only x% want a referendum soon. No, opinion polls say only y% want a referendum in October 23. No, if you add up all the votes from election a or election b, slightly more people voted for parties who are pro Union. Solution? Just fucking ask people in a referendum if they want a referendum. And to save money, rather than running these referendums on different days, combine them:

      Two questions:

      1. Do you want to have a referendum on independence today?
      2. If you said yes to question 1, do you vote yes to Scotland being an independent country?

      Solved. That way we’ll know if people want to have a referendum before you actually ask them if they want independence. 😀

    71. Breastplate says:

      Crisiscult,
      I would argue that if you live or want to live in a democracy then it is an obligation to make your voice heard.
      It is your duty to make your opinion known.

      How can we have a democracy if our politicians (our representatives) don’t know what the Will of the People is and therefore cannot enact it?

      Of course, our politicians would like to decide for us but that is not democracy. It would suit them better if we were to sit in the corner and keep quiet. That would suit them just fine and some of them don’t even make a secret of it.

      A referendum is our voice and there should be less obstacles for a referendum not more.

    72. crisiscult says:

      @breastplate

      Excuse my attempt at humour. I was merely trying to highlight the madness (and indeed the disingenuity) of the Brit position.

      Their argument is clearly bullshit, but it’s a desperate one. Sadly, I’m not too optimistic the SNP have the balls to stand up to these risible tactics.

      Councils won’t enable an “illegal referendum”? Tell them it’s not illegal just because it hasn’t been agreed with UK and if they don’t facilitate it, they get no money.

      Scottish Government is taken to court in order to pause the whole process? Run a referendum on whether Scots want to end the union in the event that a referendum on independence cannot take place in October 2023. Run it at the same time the independence referendum would have taken it place. Call it a “national consultation”.

      That’s my offering for starters.

    73. Andy Ellis says:

      @crisiscult 3.35 pm

      The onus is on the Scottish Government to test the assertion that Holyrood lacks the legislative competence to hold a referendum on independence without a S30 Order being granted. It could have done this years ago, and put the matter beyond doubt. If it had done so and the courts had found in favour of the UK government, then alternative measures could already be in place.

      Such measures could have included holding a “referendum about a referendum” asking for a mandate to permanently repatriate the power to hold self determination referendums to Holyrood, irrespective of Westminster’s permission; or making such a repatriation of powers a specific part of the platform for any General Election for Holyrood or Westminster, and announcing that 50% +1 votes for pro-independence parties would be taken as an automatic right to hold such a referendum whenever we liked.

      Unsurprisingly the devolutionists in the SNP are a day late and a dollar short. Every dog in the street knows the britants will say “Now is not the time” to any request for an indyref2 S30 Order, which isn’t going to happen in 2023 just die to time and legislative constraints, even if it doesn’t result in a court case and constitutional wrangling lasting many months.

      That leaves plebiscitary elections for Holyrood in 2026 as the best hope of progress. Indeed, it’s interesting to speculate why any Scottish nationalist government worth its salt hasn’t already made it clear that any attempt by Westminster not to honour the 2014 precedent and the terms of the Edinburgh Agreement, will be a trigger for every subsequent Scottish election to be regarded as plebiscitary. All pro-independence parties should sign up to that ultimatum. Those that don’t will be exposed for what they really are: advocates of Home Rule, not independence.

    74. James Che. says:

      Any vote for deciding on independence for Scots is a false flag as soon as you presume you need someone else’s permission.

      The Scots are in metaphorically speaking already independent. Under the claim of right,

      There is just a bit of confusion in the heads of westminsters members. Union politicians, And ole Nic’s.
      Wether this is deliberate ignorance or feigned is hard to say. But their are enough lawyers amongst them to presume its obfuscation rather than ignorance.

      The Scot themselves are free to choose a new government,

      It does not say that the branch office from England (Scotland devolved government ) is free to choose a new government or to act as the mechanism.
      For the devolved government in Scotland would be voting against their boss and the monarchy/crown they swore an oath to when they entered the devolved government.
      It existence is only in Scotland with the authorisation of the queen and the British Parliament acting as a english parliament.

      Simply said it is a set up.

    75. PacMan says:

      Effigy says: 17 June, 2022 at 12:30 pm

      Sadiq Khan demands office workers return to London!
      Why? He gets extortionate business rates, congestion and parking charges.
      The home workers struggling financially save thousands on transport cost.
      More time with family, less stress, don’t need office clothes or generate city pollution.

      Since the pandemic I have been doing a mixture of Working from home and going into the office.

      As somebody who has been around long enough to know you get no thanks for working unpaid overtime, before the pandemic I was strict about worklife balance.

      However, since WFH, I have been working past my normal shift to help my colleagues who are struggling with workloads and working on later when it has been busy and taking the time off on on later work days when it is busy. It works out well for me as I can enjoy an extended lunch break in the comfort of my own home on these occasions.

      My work colleagues do the same thing and I’m sure the same thing happens with everybody else who is WFH. This flexibility increases productivity and adds to the economy.

      These idiots are just playing to the headlines.
      For those who are demanding that WFH should end shows how out of touch they are. This is seen with their main argument that returning to work will save the High street. Given the cost of living crisis, if people had to return to work, they will be bringing to work sandwiches/ready made microwave meals rather than buying expensive meals out of shops.

    76. Ottomanboi says:

      Johnson goes east, can the Sturge be far behind?
      Barring the hoped for odd stray projectile the return of the former to his London lair is to be expected. Two stinky fingers to the poor saps in the north of England who voted for him, though.

    77. James Che. says:

      Returning to work,
      People that are working from home, are still working.
      Are the headliners presuming it is a different kind of work, or employment.

      Perhaps they have a fear that the rules and regulations of the office work contract to empoyees are breaking a contract they hold over their employees.and they may be sued.

      They certainly cannot be thinking of the enviroment with all the increase in traffic that would create.

    78. David Hannah says:

      Back in 2014 Salmond brought the Commonwealth Games to Glasgow. The city was electric and it was a resounding success. Scotland’s athletes representing Scotland as an Independent nation on the world stage.

      Eurovision being hosted in Glasgow, in the summer of Independence will see a week long festival of Union flags and Ukraine solidarity with a mediocre singer at best.

      Sturgeon must want to strengthen the case for being part of the UK next summer before her halloween Independence referendum.

    79. James Che. says:

      Ottomanboi.

      The british parliament is sticking its fingers up to all of Britain nowadays,
      At one time they used to take great care and protection of their own side of the border,

    80. twathater says:

      Now you’ve done it breeks you have exposed Niclas latest secret masterplan , but don’t worry instead of independence Scotland can immerse itself in woke utopia eurovision , sturgeon will be ecstatic at all the new opportunities of selfies with new and important world leaders she can place them next to Lizzie and the other assorted perverts in her photie album soon to be ncluded in her CV

    81. Scott says:

      Ellis chuntering from a sedentary position, in support of kicking-the-can to 2026.

      Claim of Right Act 1689 gives our Parliament the right to do anything it pleases, with consent of the people.

      Scotland Act cannot trump this principle, nor can it prevent the people organising their own referendum, bypassing the legislatures who are agitating for a court battle, and presenting the result to the Crown.

      IF Yes to leave the union, leave the union it is.

      If No, the status quo.

      Westminster cannot amend or repeal the Claim of Right Act 1689, nor can it ignore it.

      UK Parliament isn’t fully sovereign. Scotland has always had veto in law, and it’s way past time to fully exercise it.

    82. Andy Ellis says:

      @Scott 5.41 pm

      More unicorns and rainbows from the cunning “plan plan” woo-woo clan. Stun us wi’ another. Nobody cares about 300 year old treaties. Scottish electors and the international community know what we have to do: demonstrate clearly that 50% + 1 support independence. It’s not rocket science.

      “Our parliament” can declare UDI tomorrow, but it wouldn’t make a blind bit of difference because nobody would recognise it. We’d be the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus without the sun.

      UDI and novel routes to independence by passing elections or referendums won’t work. You have no case. If you did, you’d be trotting out the list of acknowledged constitutional and legal experts and peer reviewed research supporting what passes for your case.

      You’re coming up empty, as per….

    83. North chiel says:

      “ Andy Ellis @0406 pm , that leaves plebiscitary election Holyrood 2026 as best hope of progress” . Andy is there anything preventing her telling BJ that if he won’t agree a referendum in 2023 she will immediately resign her government and hold a plebiscitary Holyrood election ?

    84. robbo says:

      Reported in the Scotsman apparently. A mistake they said A mistake my fecking arse. These bastards are EVIL.

      Investigation launched after documents published by Scottish NHS in error stated that eunuch should be recognised as formal identity

      An investigation has been launched after documents published by the Scottish NHS in error stated that eunuch should be recognised as a formal gender identity.

      The paper, which was shared onto the National Gender Identity Clinical Network for Scotland (NGICNS) site, was uploaded as part of a consultation and claimed that “eunuch-identified people” are the “least visible” trans group and would benefit from “gender affirming medical care”.

      The Daily Telegraph reported the website shared claims from the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) about ‘eunuch-identified people’.

      Susan Buchanan, Director of National Specialist Services and Screening Division, said: “NHS Scotland did not author the document, contribute to it or comment on it. The document’s content does not reflect current policy or guidance on standards of care for NHS Scotland.

      “The document was part of a public consultation led by WPATH and as such is unrelated to NHS Scotland and the NGICNS.”

      Following the report being shared, the paper was deleted and an apology issued by the Scottish Government.

      The paper defined an eunuch as “an individual assigned male at birth whose testicles have been surgically removed or rendered non-functional, and who identifies as a eunuch” and “individuals who feel that their true self is best expressed by the term eunuch”.

      It added that eunuchs “generally desire to have their testicles surgically removed or rendered non-functional” and that eunuchs should be offered “surgical intervention” if there is a risk that withholding treatment could lead to them attempting to carry out a medical procedure themselves.

      The paper also provided a direct link to a website that included graphic and sexually explicit fictional descriptions of child eunuchs.

      Susan Smith, a director at the For Women Scotland campaign group, said: “We are disgusted that NHS Scotland thinks that it is appropriate to align with any organisation pushing ‘eunuch identity’, let alone host a paper about it on their website.

      “This is a barbaric practice which, for centuries, was used to demean and abuse young men and boys.”

      The NGICNS, which has an official NHS website, describes itself as a network including NHS staff who want to improve gender services across Scotland.

      Last year, the network was invited to help draw up a new protocol for treating trans patients.

      A Scottish Government spokesman told the Daily Telegraph following the publication: “This material was published in error. The documents have been removed and we apologise to anyone affected.”

    85. Scott says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      17 June, 2022 at 5:48 pm

      @Scott 5.41 pm

      More unicorns and rainbows from the cunning “plan plan” woo-woo clan. Stun us wi’ another. Nobody cares about 300 year old treaties. Scottish electors and the international community know what we have to do: demonstrate clearly that 50% + 1 support independence. It’s not rocket science.

      Claim of Right Act 1689 isn’t a treaty, it’s the law in Scotland & England.

      I didn’t mention the Acts or Treaty of Union, so what point were you trying to make?

      As pointed out previously about your beloved ‘international community’, Scots law is already a recognised party to all treaties entered into by UK Parliament.

      UDI would be no problem, following a referendum run by the Scots.

      Scotland already has defined borders.
      Scotland already has a permanent population.
      Scotland already has a government.
      Scotland already meets the criteria to be recognised as a fully functioning state.

      We don’t need permission from Holyrood or WM to hold a referendum on any matter. Or you and your English wife, so fuck off.

    86. Republicofscotland says:

      “More unicorns and rainbows from the cunning “plan plan” woo-woo clan. Stun us wi’ another. Nobody cares about 300 year old treaties.”

      Agent Ellis.

      Really? I’ve heard Alex Salmond speak on it, and if Sturgeon hadn’t been such a treacherous shit for the last seven years she could’ve used it to to further our cause, she still can.

      “It is accepted that prior to the reconvening of the Scottish Parliament that matters relating to Scottish legislation subject to certain provisions were a matter for the Parliament of Great Britain as cited in the Union with England Act 1707, however it can be argued that since the majority of the people of Scotland chose to reconvene the Scottish Parliament and that since devolution it has been accepted that this Parliament is for the representation of the Scottish people, then all matters of legislation should now be the responsibility of the Scottish Government and the Scotland act should be amended to remove the legislative competence over reserved matters and return all powers of legislation to the Scottish Government.

      “This would also be in accordance with article five of the United Nations General Assembly resolution 1514 (XV) of the 14th of December 1960 which states;

      Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire.”

      It is also worth considering that the Scottish Parliament in Holyrood was granted the status of a Government by virtue of section 12 of the Scotland Act 2012 which states “The Scottish Executive is renamed the Scottish Government” and as the Government of Scotland, it should be allowed to govern its own country without any restrictions being imposed on it by the government of another country.”

      Which leads me to say that when Johnson says no to an indyref treaties and sovereignty will come into play.

    87. Dorothy Devine says:

      Can’t think of a good reason for having the Eurovision in Glasgow- other countries have refused to have it because of the expense.

      It’s a load of codswallop and since Terry Wogan is no longer available it makes it double codswallop.

    88. Republicofscotland says:

      Dorothy Devine the Eurovision Song Contest is now far to politicised, its just another weapon or pedestal for which ever country wins it.

      Its farcical in its standards as well, with the likes of Israel allowed to take part. Glasgow has enough domestic problems needing sorted out with a cash boost, wasting huge wads of cash on this political singalong should be a non-starter.

    89. Dorothy Devine says:

      RoS totally agree – we do not need another expensive circus.

    90. Andy Ellis says:

      @North Chiel 5.54 pm

      “Andy is there anything preventing her telling BJ that if he won’t agree a referendum in 2023 she will immediately resign her government and hold a plebiscitary Holyrood election ?”

      In principle no. Assuming Sturgeon had the political smarts or cojones to do it (as if!), if the current government stood down, it would be up to the other parties to try and form a government. Presumably they would be unable to do it if blocked by the combined SNP/Green majority. The Presiding Officer is then under an obligation to call fresh elections within a set period: I forget how long…21 days perhaps?

      None of that seems at all likely to happen before HR2026, but more power to anyone who wants to give it a try!

    91. John Main says:

      @Scott 6:19

      “We don’t need permission from [anyone] to hold a referendum on anything”

      Indeed we don’t, Scott.

      Just been looking at the calendar. July 28 is a Thursday and is good for me. See if you can organise it for then.

      What? You actually do need a legislative framework, professional executive, engaged bureaucracy, not to mention funds to pay janitors, hire premises, security, leccy bills, etc. etc.

      Turns out being “sovereign” doesn’t get much done in the real world. I’m sticking with Andy Ellis on this one.

    92. PacMan says:

      Sturgeons support for Eurovision coming to Glasgow next year gives a highlight into her mentality, all soundbites and selfies.

      The social media aspiration lifestyle is going to soon become irrelevant as the cost of living crisis begins to bit when even young people with lots of disposable income are cutting down on non-essentials like mobile phone data plans.

      Best to leave her in her bubble and let the adults get on with things.

    93. Scott says:

      John Main says:
      17 June, 2022 at 7:35 pm

      Turns out being “sovereign” doesn’t get much done in the real world.
      I’m sticking with Andy Ellis on this one.

      —-

      Bit hard not to when you live in the same hoose as his wife.

    94. Saffron Robe says:

      robbo says:

      “Investigation launched after documents published by Scottish NHS in error stated that eunuch should be recognised as a formal identity.”

      Robbo, it seems to me that all those who are currently serving in Sturgeon’s harem already identify as eunuchs, certainly they have just as much potency!

    95. PacMan says:

      James Che. says: 17 June, 2022 at 5:09 pm

      Returning to work,
      People that are working from home, are still working.
      Are the headliners presuming it is a different kind of work, or employment.

      Perhaps they have a fear that the rules and regulations of the office work contract to empoyees are breaking a contract they hold over their employees.and they may be sued.

      They certainly cannot be thinking of the environment with all the increase in traffic that would create.

      One thing that is not mentioned in this subject is childcare.

      Childcare is expensive and labour extensive. Now that the UK doesn’t have access to cheap European labour I’m sure that the sector is suffering as well. It means that costs will have to go up to remedy the situation which will make it unaffordable for working families.

      With WFH, families don’t need childcare as they look after their children as well as work. It’s a challenge with the conversations I’ve had with female colleagues when I’ve been in with them when in the office together but at the moment it isn’t having a detrimental problem on getting the work done. Whether this arrangement is sustainable long term for those affected is another thing.

      For me, I’m ambivalent towards WFH. If I’ve got to work in the office full time then I’ll do it. What it boils down to is if there are is widespread dissatisfaction with the current situation it will come from individuals and companies, not from politicians who want to make an easy headline and wolf-whistle to a certain demographic.

    96. PacMan says:

      In terms of the eunuch stuff, I think somebody has been watching too much Game of Thrones and need to get out more.

      It would be laughable if these individuals weren’t in position of authority.

    97. John Main says:

      @Pacman 7:52

      “cutting down on non-essentials like mobile phone data plans”

      There you go, Pacman, you do see the fundamental flaw in your argument, yet you can’t quite follow it through to a conclusion.

      Let me help with your focus:

      “Non-essential mobile data plans”

      In the entire history of the world, the justification for precisely zero political upheavals.

      What do we want? Non-essential mobile data plans!

      When do we want them? Now!

      Do you see it now, Pacman?

    98. Andy Ellis says:

      @Scott 7.54 pm

      “Bit hard not to when you live in the same hoose as his wife.”

      I think I’d have noticed Scott! It’s pretty lame insisting that all of those who disagree with your woo-woo must be one person. It seems particularly odd coming from a creepy as fuck stalker like you who hides behind anonymity to spout his unreasoned amateur-hour legal “analysis” and abuse those who point out his inanities.

      I’ve no idea who John Main is, and frequently disagree with his views, but at least he’s not a piece of work with mental issues like you. Unlike you. he’s not a stain on the independence movement either.

      It’s not hard to see why you remain a pusillanimous anonymous troll throwing rhetorical rocks at those without your collection of personality defects.

    99. PacMan says:

      According to the recent article, the UK Government will not ‘impose’ new nuclear power stations on Scotland:

      https://www.insider.co.uk/news/uk-government-not-impose-new-26656473

      Given how dictatorial the current UK government is, it is surprising that they are so are nice to the wishes of a wee ‘pretendy’ parliament.

      Given the posts on a certain poster on here that suggests otherwise, it makes you think, doesn’t it?

    100. PacMan says:

      @ John Main

      On the drink or something heavier tonight?

    101. John Main says:

      @Pacman 8:45

      How does leaving our children in the care of “cheap European labour” help to instil in them a strong sense of our Scottish culture, history, linguistic heritage, customs, nationhood, etc. etc.

      Asking for a blood and soul nativist.

      Also asking for myself: Do you ever think through anything you post here?

    102. PacMan says:

      Or maybe John, you are just a dotard?

    103. John Main says:

      @Andy Ellis 8:50

      Couldn’t have put it better myself.

      Haudoan, was it you who wrote that, or me?

    104. Andy Ellis says:

      @Vlad’s ding-a-ling 6.29 pm

      “Which leads me to say that when Johnson says no to an indyref treaties and sovereignty will come into play.”

      I doubt many take exception to the principle that when the britnats refuse “permission” for indyref2 (assuming no court decision has come down before hand that Holyrood is entitled to do it anyway) then an alternative route is required.

      The $64,000 question of course is what that route is and who organises it: you know…the boring day to day stuff mentioned by John Main above at 7.35. unless of course you’re a 300 year old treaty mono maniac like James Che, or a (very) amateur legal sleuth like Scott, and believe we’ll be wafted to the sunny uplands of independence on the back of unicorns or by sliding over a rainbow.

    105. Scott says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      17 June, 2022 at 8:50 pm

      I’ve no idea who John Main is, and frequently disagree with his views, but at least he’s not a piece of work with mental issues like you.

      like you who hides behind anonymity to spout his unreasoned amateur-hour legal “analysis” and abuse those who point out his inanities.

      How do you ‘John Main’ is a he? How do you know their health history? Usernames are just that…you’re the one with the irrational stance, not me.

      Citing a law in support of a position is hardly inane. Gainsaying is, however.

      No matter how much you screech drunkenly into the void, the Claim of Right Act 1689 is ‘the law’ in Scotland, and was also enshrined into English law in 1707.

      We, the Scots, are sovereign.

      Embrace that reality; It’ll help you, and others in the ‘soft yes’ camp, convince those of a ‘soft no’ persuasion.

    106. PacMan says:

      re: John Main

      John Main ramblings reminds me of the blogger Old Holborn from years come by.

      The blog Old Holborn maintained was fun back in the day especially the bare faced cheek where he wriggled out of the contradictions caused by his previous postings. No doubt he made a bit of money from advertising out of the trolling he did.

      However, the world has moved on and these types of libertarian scatter guns postings can be quite tiring now.

      https://www.anorak.co.uk/199477/politicians/bastard-old-holborn-is-gone-blogger-undone-by-war.html#disqus_thread

      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11390745/Britains-vilest-troll-Im-here-to-expose-hypocrisy.html

    107. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Today’s UK Column News has an interesting segment looking at so-called ‘Psychic Numbing’, which appears to be a pet project of the United Nations.

      It’s worth looking at if only because we, in Scotland, were subjected to what appears to be something very similar in 2013/14, as the referendum drew closer. Remember the toe-curling ‘Don’t Leave Us Scotland’ campaign featuring an array of British celebrities and ‘national treasures’ beseeching us to vote No? All those hastily scribbled placards?

      That pish wasn’t the brainchild of yer Rory Stewarts – there was proper behavioural psychology at work. What UK Column is revealing appears to show how highly developed these techniques are, and why we should pay attention to them.

      (The relevant section starts at approx 48 mins.)

      https://www.ukcolumn.org/video/uk-column-news-17th-june-2022

    108. Andy Ellis says:

      You’d have to be fairly numbed psychically to give any credence to a bunch of conspiracy theorising crackpots like UK Column News right enough.

      Still, I suppose being able to fluff them on the Rev’s site shows that there’s no censorship here, huh Ian?

      Remind us, did the Rev back down over your petulant flounce the other day and release your “last ever” post? Seems you’ve had more comebacks than Sinatra. 🙂

    109. Breeks says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      17 June, 2022 at 10:35 pm

      That pish wasn’t the brainchild of yer Rory Stewarts – there was proper behavioural psychology at work. What UK Column is revealing appears to show how highly developed these techniques are, and why we should pay attention to them.

      I’m not sure if a weakness in our “side” is a thing to talk about openly, or whether it’s a situation better by having more people know about it.

      Myself included, we are all pretty good at detecting when something is wrong, and sensing impropriety. Our instincts tend to be pretty good and usually right.

      I think the collective weakness we have is we tend to focus too much on the problem without engaging constructively on what can be done to resolve the problem.

      For example, we have known about the perfidious BritNat Media since 2014, and known about it well…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXQYuLUAbyw

      But what have we actually “done” about any of this? IndyRef2 is shaping up to be exactly the same. Not different in ANY respect.

      My point isn’t just about the Media, it’s a common theme across a broad spectrum of our YES debate. We are supreme in detecting and dissecting a problem, but we struggle hard to carry the same momentum through to finding a solution to the problem. When asked what we do about it, we’re perplexed and suddenly turn to sheep.

      Simply re-stating the same problem year, after year, after year, does not further the cause. We need to hone our arguments, cut through our own rhetoric, and begin to formulate deliverable solutions.

      Yes, we know the BritNat Media is a fraud. Message received and understood. What do we do about it? Do we boycott it? Do we establish pirate broadcasting? WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT IT?

      Yes, we know Nicola Sturgeon has a bizarre interpretation of Scotland’s Constitution. What do we do about it? Can she be impeached? What protocol do we need to impeach a Scottish FM? If not impeached, can she be salvaged, perhaps “educated” about the error in her strategy? Can we draw virtue from this being a mistake? Can she be made to listen?

      If some of us think Sturgeon is our new Messiah while others consider her an Mi5 stooge, how do we bridge the gap and come to a settled conclusion we can all live with? I’ve heard both sides over and over. No more. I’m bored. What is to be done? Can we share common cause or can’t we? “Now” is the time to know.

      We need to stop stoking fires of division dotted around our YES Movement and start putting them out by positive action and constructive initiative. Who are the firebugs lighting them?

      If we can’t tackle the big ones yet, let’s start with the little ones. Be inventive, constructive, and spend as much time formulating solutions as fretting about what is wrong. How do we fix what is wrong – “that” is the discussion which needs much greater traction.

      There are solutions. There are people working hard on finding more solutions, but ALL of us need more focus. If we cannot rely on Leadership, then we must trust our own coordination. Like the NCO’s, the corporals and sergeants who carry the fight and save the day while the Officers sip sherry somewhere in the rear.

    110. Andy Ellis says:

      Fun facts about “UK Column News”.

      By your friends shall ye know them, eh Ian?

      “Analysis / Bias
      In review, UK Column uses loaded language both in their headlines and articles such as: ”Cameron and Obama’s Hired Thugs Now Butchering Their Way Through Syria.” This article, like many on the website, does not link to a single source. However, they sometimes utilize credible sources such as the NY Times, gov.uk and questionable sources such as the Daily Mail and conspiracy sites such as 21st Century Wire: “White Helmets.” When covering USA politics, the UK Column favors Donald Trump and his policies. They also promote conspiracy theories such as the New World Order, False Flag Operations, and World War 3. While the UK Column does produce credible, well-sourced news, they also promote conspiracy theories.

      During the Coronavirus pandemic of 2020, they frequently published misinformation such as Lockdown Deaths, Not Covid Deaths. In this article, they state, “COVID-19 has been circulating for at least a year, and yet there was no notable increase in unseasonable mortality anywhere until Lockdown regimes were imposed between late February and late March 2020.” This statement is false as lockdowns have saved numerous lives. They have also promoted anti-mask propaganda with this statement, “Masks are utterly useless. There is no evidence base for their effectiveness whatsoever. Paper masks and fabric masks are simply virtue signaling. They’re not even worn most of the time effectively.” This also is not true. In general, the UK Column is not a credible source of information that routinely publishes right-wing conspiracy theories.

      Overall, we rate the UK Column a strong right-wing biased conspiracy website that frequently promotes false or misleading information. (M. Huitsing 11/27/2017) Updated (2/05/2021)”

      https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/uk-column/

    111. Andy Ellis says:

      @Breeks 8.51 am

      1) “Yes, we know the BritNat Media is a fraud. Message received and understood. What do we do about it? Do we boycott it? Do we establish pirate broadcasting? WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT IT?”

      A uniformly hostile MSM didn’t stop the Yes vote increasing from 28% to 45% between 2012-14 did it? Obviously, we all wish we had a broader, Scottish owned and vibrant independent media, but we are where we are. Seems to me many of the questions you’re posing aren’t going to be resolved quickly, and certainly not before most of us would like to see either indyref2 or plebiscitary elections. There’s no point wishing we had the MSM of our dreams, rather than what we’ve got. If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

      2) “Yes, we know Nicola Sturgeon has a bizarre interpretation of Scotland’s Constitution. What do we do about it? Can she be impeached? What protocol do we need to impeach a Scottish FM? If not impeached, can she be salvaged, perhaps “educated” about the error in her strategy? Can we draw virtue from this being a mistake? Can she be made to listen?”

      “We” get rid of her by voting her party out (solid fail on the part of the movement just a few months ago), or we hope that the SNP membership finally grows a pair and realises what a liability Sturgeon and her acolytes have become. The lady is obviously not for turning. Once again, there is little point making long term plans to oust the Leaderene if we’re hoping for early progress towards another independence referendum or plebiscitary elections.

      If you’re arguing for a bigger role for non-party groups, and/or for the NCO class and “ordinary punters” to wrest control of the movement from authoritarian, regressive leadership groups like Sturgeon’s immediate circle or the leadership of the Scottish Greens, I’m sure many people will find that attractive, just as the 2012-14 “Big Tent” was seen by many as a good thing.

      Whether the next “real” campaign is the same or markedly different from the last remains to be seen. I don’t see or hear much (any?) excitement about the FMs recent announcement of Indyref2023, but maybe that because only her slavish acolytes believe it’s at all likely to happen.

      Perhaps it’s naive after the past 8 years to expect the old band to get together again? How likely is it that groups who have spent the last few years beating the shit out of each other will be able to campaign shoulder to shoulder and put aside their differences on policy and the SNP’s shameful record of attacking those in the movement it regards as unwelcome? Hosie/AIM’s “Code of Conduct” over-reach suggests a bad start: “don’t do as we do, do as we say”.

    112. Robert graham says:

      Ellis fk off prick away and get another clot shot

    113. Republicofscotland says:

      Agent Ellis at it again with another “Iffy Quotient” website recommended by the Poynter Institute and used by the Atlantic Council, backed by funds from the NED The Open Society Foundations and the Kock Family.

    114. Ottomanboi says:

      You must be old enough ANDY ELLIS to have figured bias is everywhere in media. It’s the thing media do best. Truth? Forget it.
      Each man effectively chooses the bias he prefers. Suggestively, most appear quite conventional in their bias choices

    115. Republicofscotland says:

      Ian Brotherhood.

      It was a foregone conclusion that Patel would give the go ahead to extradite Assange, though his legal team will appeal. He is to be made an example of to all other journalists, step out of line and we’ll get you, Wikileaks has never published a lie, how many news outlets can say the same.

      Macron’s Rival had something to say on the matter.

      “If I am Prime Minister on Monday, Julian Assange will be made a naturalised French citizen and given a medal,” said Jean-Luc Mélenchon at a press briefing in Paris this morning.”

    116. Andy Ellis says:

      @Ottomanboi 9.34 am

      I doubt anyone believes the media is absolutely pure. Of course organisations and individuals have “angles” and are the products of their background, education and to an extent who funds them. ‘Twas ever thus I suspect.

      It takes a special kind of person however to suspend disbelief enough to give credit to some of the BS pedalled in here by the usual suspects. If you gave folk like Republic of Scotland, Robert Graham and Ruby enemas you’d be able to fit what was left in a matchbox.

    117. Breastplate says:

      Ffs Ellis,
      Why you feel that UK Column News deserves a category that we must not trust all to itself tells us a great deal about what you think of the rest of the Media.
      Your idea of credible sources are wildly different from mine, I think we may have a different opinion of what the word “credible” means.

      How many times do you need to be told that the trust you place in people and institutions that try to manipulate us is misplaced?
      How on earth you expect to be taken seriously is beyond me.

      The cake is a lie!

    118. Mark Boyle says:

      PacMan says:
      17 June, 2022 at 10:08 pm

      re: John Main

      John Main ramblings reminds me of the blogger Old Holborn from years come by.

      The blog Old Holborn maintained was fun back in the day especially the bare faced cheek where he wriggled out of the contradictions caused by his previous postings. No doubt he made a bit of money from advertising out of the trolling he did.

      However, the world has moved on and these types of libertarian scatter guns postings can be quite tiring now.

      https://www.anorak.co.uk/199477/politicians/bastard-old-holborn-is-gone-blogger-undone-by-war.html#disqus_thread

      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11390745/Britains-vilest-troll-Im-here-to-expose-hypocrisy.html

      Old Holborn was entertaining enough as one of the regulars on the old Grumpycunt website, which used to be good clean fun of miserable old buggers moaning about the world – it was like getting a new series of One Foot In The Grave and a new Half Man Half Biscuit album every day to enjoy.

      Then its members started to take themselves too seriously, confusing people ranting on the web with being “I’m Sorry, I Haven’t A Clue!” panelists in waiting.

      The site owner (like that for Scarfolk) became preoccupied with trying to make money off a successful idea and it became an intrusive adverts and dodgy browser scripts nightmare; career trolls like Scott on here began appearing with their usual low-brow “yer maw!” posts racism (there was one in particular called Galoot who kept returning under new alias but the same avatar!); and with tedious inevitability the posts about ethnic minorities began creeping in with an increasingly belligerent tone. It closed down two years after it ought to have.

      Meanwhile, Old Holborn had long left to start his “solo career” of V For Vendetta cosplaying his way to reforming Britain, including standing for Parliament which meant his name and address under the laws of the time became public knowledge – putting his later claims of being “doxxed” as an excuse for disappearing into sharp perspective (reality: one humiliation over getting his facts badly wrong too many, like most of the nascent Libertarian Party wankers).

    119. John Main says:

      @pacman 10:08

      You post on here, from time to time, poorly reasoned and sometimes contradictory rambles about one thing or another. Often sparked, as I recall, by one-on-one conversations with your wall.

      When I gently and humorously correct some of your more obvious errors, you retort with personal abuse.

      If you don’t want to be taken to task over your inadequacies, then up your game.

      Given where you are starting from, that should not be too difficult.

      Maybes neck a bottle or two of Cuba’s finest as you strain for inspiration?

    120. John Main says:

      @Andy Ellis 8:51

      To be fair, at the cited date (February 2021), it was reasonable to claim that widespread non-surgical mask wearing by the general public was pointless.

      There are still heated arguments going on about it now. I did find a meta-study in Nature, dated February 2022, which concludes that overall, general mask wearing does have some reducing effect on Covid spread, but only as “part of a comprehensive strategy of measures”.

      Bottom line for ordinary people is that in a world rife with Covid, simply strapping a paper pad on your face and doing nothing else, is still pointless wishful thinking.

    121. Robert Hughes says:

      Breeks @ 8.51

      Aye , good point/s . I’m as * guilty * as anyone else of focusing on the negatives – Christ knows there are no shortage of them . It’s essential to have as accurate a picture as possible of how local/geopolitics are operating , what we’re up against, but ultimately , it doesn’t get us anywhere if that’s ALL we do .

      It doesn’t help that some seem to gleefully jump on any fresh approach/ideas with their own ” that won’t work ” negativity , as if there’s only one way ie theirs . The only way to discover if something works is to try it , give it yr best shot , if it gathers momentum , great , if not , sling it .

      We’re in uncharted territory in our pursuit of Independence ; sure , there are precedents , but every struggle for freedom is unique . We can learn from the experiences of Ireland , India , Latin America , Africa etc , but Scotland’s path has it’s own specificity , it’s own colour and flavour , difficulties and opportunities .Embrace them

    122. Andy Ellis says:

      @Breastplate 9.56 am

      Not all to itself no, I’m just pointing out it’s hardly a trustworthy source by any stretch of the imagination. I’ve already said that I don’t think anyone in the MSM is lily white. What else do you want? I don’t expect journalists to be plaster saints, any more than I expect it of politicians, bloggers or the man on Clapham omnibus. If you’d rather rely on organisations like UK Column News for your information there’s nothing stopping you.

      You’re free to think it’s is a credible source if you like. You’re also free to think that any and all spokespeople for governments always lie, or only sometimes lie, or never lie and that their pronouncements are always, sometimes or never reported fairly and without bias by the media organisation of your choice.

      Most ordinary folk have to make their own minds up. Some of them will of course take what they read or see in the MSM as gospel, others will take it with a pinch of salt, or a bucketful depending on the messenger and the issue.

      Coverage of “the conflict that shall not be named” appears apposite in this context. You don’t have to be an uncritical fan of western MSM or indeed the policies of our own governments, to think that what is being reported on the ground by “our” media is more accurate than what is being reported by Vlad’s media, or by the various conspiracy theory sites.

      As noted in the past certain categories of things are binary: either they’re true or they aren’t. Republic of Scotland for an obvious example has set views about what is happening in the war. His views represent those of only a tiny minority, and are informed by his own worldview and his own take on which sources are trust worthy, and which aren’t. While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, they’re not entitled to their own class of facts.

      We all have our own subjective views on complex issues, whether on the war, the GRA/TRA issue, whether an indyref requires a S30 Order, whether there is a WEF plot to take over the world, whether Covid is a hoax. Certain things are however objective: they either happened, or they didn’t. They are factual, or they are made up – or perhaps reporting of what happened is subsequently found to be incorrect either due to honest mistake, manipulation, or confusion.

      If you find yourself consistently coming down on the side of the issue supported by conspiracy theorists, find yourself expressing distrust of experts and placing your faith in populist solutions and see complex plots as the motivation for much of government policy rather than just cock up or “events, dear boy, events”, then it’s probably time to dial it back a bit.

    123. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Breeks (8.51) –

      I hear you loud and clear.

      Unfortunately, there is no clear way forward with Sturgeon in place. We saw Alex Salmond’s interview with Beth Rigby, and we also saw Chris McEleney’s message to Alba members. It’s pretty clear that they’re calling Sturgeon’s bluff. But that would and could only ‘work’ if enough folk were fly to what Sturgeon’s doing. But they’re not. So, it’ll all unfold as Rev has predicted – yet another summer will come and go and she’ll get away with it.

      She can’t compromise and never will. At every opportunity she doubles down on the innuendo about Alex. Whether we like it or not she has removed him from mainstream political discourse and looks set to remain First Minister. That in itself is enough to scunner enough of us away from involvement generally but the idea of her claiming credit for our independence makes many of us want to retch. Alex is playing a canny game by occupying the moral high ground but even if he’s sincere he can’t expect the rest of us to act likewise. Because it really would be ‘acting’ – I’ll never ever take part in any action which involves bolstering her position and/or papering over what she did.

      ‘But what have we actually “done” about any of this? IndyRef2 is shaping up to be exactly the same. Not different in ANY respect.’

      For me, this is the key question you raise, and it’s difficult to quantify because there is no accurate reflection of what we’ve ‘done’ – we can’t see it reflected in the mainstream media. We’ve learned a lot, not only about the humdrum aspects of political activism, but the hidden agendas and nepotistic networks which run throughout the Scottish and British establishments. We’ve learned just how much power can be hoarded, even by a jumped-up bauchle like Nicola Sturgeon, and how that power can be abused. And we’ve also witnessed just how far the State will go when it comes to silencing serious opponents – Rev, Craig Murray, Mark Hirst, now Dave Llewellyn.

      But that accumulated knowledge counts for nothing if it can’t be applied, and I believe that to be the crux of your comment.

      One thing’s for sure – we can’t and won’t be equipped to do anything at all unless we’re well informed, not just about Scottish politics, but the whole array of ‘global’ issues which seem to be dominating legislatures at every level. Which brings me to Ellis…

      The UK Column takes on topics which this place – for reasons best known to Rev Stu – does not. If WOS is a war-free zone, fair enough, but we are obliged then to find the truth elsewhere. The UK Column presenters make a point, regularly, of encouraging their audience *not* to take what they’re saying as gospel – rather, we should use different sources to reach our own conclusions. That’s not a message we ever hear from BBC, Sky etc.

      Independence, imo, starts with the ability to state one’s own case based on self-education and critical thinking. If that case happens to agree with many others’, so be it, there’s a potential for solidarity and action. The most effective way to prevent that happening is to make individuals doubt their own judgement. That’s where Ellis and his cronies come in – the fact that their methods are so crude and transparent doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be taken seriously – their presence alone signals that the ‘threat’ we present to the British State has not yet been fully nullified. That, surely, is a positive.

      😉

    124. Dorothy Devine says:

      Ian B and Breeks , round of applause.

    125. Ottomanboi says:

      If you should seek to destroy a culture, nation, people deny it exists. Oldest colonialist trick in box.
      https://archive.ph/JPZR1
      But make it denial «lite», that is the English way.
      Must be true if the majority say so.
      ffycin saes…as they might say in a demotically Brythonic manner.

    126. Robert Hughes says:

      Ian B @ 11.56

      Excellent reply to Breeks . It’s the absolute , dumb refusal to acknowledge * forces * seen and inferred that have a bearing on our ambition in particular and our lives generally that rankles .

      We can speculate about the motivations behind this refusal : we can’t allow them to deter us from stating what we believe to be the truth ; of which no one has a monopoly , but some won’t see even if it stares them in the face .

    127. Confused says:

      Simon Jenkins book on the Celts is at the level of the excremental.

      A columnist who thinks he is an intellectual – a shallow knowledge, arranged to support a narrow set of prejudices, mainly about what great people the English are; he writes a lot about this.

      Even at the very lowest passable level, you can make a good living as a writer as long as what you write supports the favoured narrative of the powerful.

      A bunch of english shits were complementary about it, the spectator, max hastings. English history is largely a fabrication, the original fake news – ironically, Lucy Worsley has made some progs on this, on the BBC of all places (the best liars in the world!) – but they are typically shown on BBC4, for the eggheads, and even then they only hint at how bad it is.

      This “high level” intellectual attack is common; certain books get written, others don’t, or never find a publisher. Or some people get TV programmes, while others don’t. Neil Oliver is currently trying to peddle the theory of a “Pan British” pre-Celtic civilisation which existed over the whole of the British Isles, with its capital in Orkney. This might just be “interesting, probably bullshit” on the level of Graham Hancock and his worldwide “atlantean” pre Flood civilisation – but you see the implication of it …

      WE ARE ALL JUST “BRITS”

      – aye, right.

      The cultural thievery of the English should also be noted – everyone loves Tolkien; I do too, but he had an agenda

      I was from early days GRIEVED BY THE POVERTY OF MY OWN BELOVED COUNTRY: it had NO STORIES OF ITS OWN (bound up with its tongue and soil), not of the quality that I sought, and found (as an ingredient) in legends of other lands. There was Greek, and CELTIC, and Romance, Germanic, Scandinavian, and Finnish (which greatly affected me); but NOTHING ENGLISH, SAVE IMPOVERISHED CHAP-BOOK STUFF.

      (capitals mine) – to create a mythology of the English, he has to go out and plagiarise every myth from every other culture he can find. Ha!

    128. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Ian Brotherhood: this “psychic numbing” of which you speak. Is it the sensation experienced when you see yet another post from Andy Ellis or substitute and have to go and cut the grass?

    129. Republicofscotland says:

      Mike (Horsebox) Russell lamenting Scotland’s demise in this union, its the same old tired rhetoric from Russell, on how the Scotland would be better off as an independent nation, yet Russell under Sturgeon’s tenure as with just about all the SNP MPs and MSP have done nothing to further the indy cause, and by keeping their mouths shut and their heads firmly jammed into the trough, have actually damaged it.

      What a spineless and gutless bunch, next to Salmond, who is willing to let sleeping dogs lie with regards to what Sturgeon did to him and work with her, for the good of the country.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fpolitics%2F20219543.scottish-independence-papers-will-factual-antidote-project-fear%2F

    130. Saffron Robe says:

      Ian Brotherhood at 11:56 am:

      Really excellent comment, Ian. As Dorothy says, a round of applause, and for Breeks too whose comments are always worthy of praise!

      Confused, interesting comment regarding the history of these isles. Ever since they invaded these shores, the Anglo-Saxons have waged a war, with varying degrees of intensity, to annihilate the indigenous Celts and their culture. It may have evolved into far more subtler methods than open warfare, but it continues nevertheless. The Scots and the English are a genetically different race but the current attempts to rewrite history are to trick us into thinking that we are one and the same. It makes us more likely to accept the injustices of the English and deny our own culture, and it disguises their true intentions. Of course, prehistory there was a unified Britain, but that was a Celtic concept of Britain based on equality, not the English version of Britain based on (white) Anglo-Saxon (protestant) superiority.

    131. Andy Ellis says:

      I see the usual suspects are being triggered that people have the temerity to disagree with them, or worse to point out the fact many of us – in all probability the majority – are entitled to point and laugh at their woo-woo worldview.

      Nobody is stopping them expressing it, or trying to censor them as Brotherhood of Bam thinks, or deterring them from stating what they believe to be the truth as Robert Hughes puts it. We enjoy a laugh as much the next man after all. Indeed, I’d rather they were out in the open than lurking about unseen spreading the fruits of their research. The light to some is an unwelcome friend of course, hence the jealously guarded anonymity of most of these key board warriors.

      Odd that so many of them get a bit hot under the collar about folk posting things which are entirely consistent with the views of most ordinary folk in the movement, and in the wider electorate, but seem oblivious to interminable, mono-maniacal posts from certain contributors about 300 year old treaties, or the claim of right, or Hunter Biden’s laptop.

      I hope Tinto Chiel has a big lawn. If he’s at a loose end I’m sure some other alert readers have lawns that need attention.

    132. Andy Ellis says:

      @Saffron Robe 3.08 pm

      “Ever since they invaded these shores, the Anglo-Saxons have waged a war, with varying degrees of intensity, to annihilate the indigenous Celts and their culture.”

      and

      “The Scots and the English are a genetically different race…”

      I don’t think many folk actually believe that any more. Perhaps back in the day before genetics totally discredited such simplistic arguments, but even before the widespread availability of genetic studies few historians still gave credence to the idea of the Anglo Saxons annihilating the brythonic population or that the Scots and English were genetically distinct.

      It’s a nativist trope, like listening to these nutters years ago appearing on on one of the archaeology programmes who insisted that you weren’t “real” English unless you could trace your ancestry back to 1066, who went very quiet when their genetics showed they themselves were total mongrels!

      One big genetic study identified 17 genetically distinct clusters of people in the UK (see links). It found:

      “At the broadest scale, the population in Orkney (islands to the north of Scotland) emerged as the most genetically distinct. At the next level, Wales forms a distinct genetic group, followed by a further division between north and south Wales. Then the north of England, Scotland, and Northern Ireland collectively separate from southern England, before Cornwall forms a separate cluster. Scotland and Northern Ireland then separate from northern England. The study eventually focused at the level where the UK was divided into 17 genetically distinct clusters of people.”

      https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2015-03-19-who-do-you-think-you-really-are-genetic-map-british-isles#:~:text=In%20fact%20the%20Celtic%20parts,the%20Welsh%20or%20the%20Scots.

      https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Clustering-of-the-2-039-UK-individuals-into-17-clusters-based-only-on-genetic-data-For_fig1_273782200

    133. Robert Hughes says:

      ” Nobody is stopping them expressing it, or trying to censor them as Brotherhood of Bam thinks, or deterring them from stating what they believe to be the truth as Robert Hughes puts it. We enjoy a laugh as much the next man after all ”

      LOL , listen pal , you couldn’t deter an ant with two broken legs from crawling up yr leg and if anyone is being laughed at here it’s you . Your 4/5 stock phrases and vacuum-sealed , entirely pedestrian worldview might pass for interesting commentary in the circle of one you inhabit , I seriously doubt it does anywhere else

    134. Scott says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      18 June, 2022 at 3:17 pm

      Nobody is stopping them expressing it, or trying to censor them..

      The light to some is an unwelcome friend of course, hence the jealously guarded anonymity of most of these key board warriors.

      Odd that so many of them get a bit hot under the collar about folk posting things…

      Mind that time he was crying on GETTR because his posts were censored and went into moderation, therefore Rev Stu should just close this place down?

      “Jeez…man..you need to sort out the modding BTL @ WoS: either that or just put it out of its misery already!” – https://gettr.com/comment/c13iv05dff1

      Anyhoo…

      Ellis is the one getting hot under the collar about facts – he’s just a dispensable board warrior, jealously guarding his own publicity.

      Claim of Right Act 1689

      It doesn’t matter how old a law is, it’s still ‘the law’ in Scotland. It’s also been enshrined in English law since 1707.

      The Scots are wholly sovereign and CoRA1689 is our friend.

    135. James Che. says:

      If you only put suger and water in your cup to make a coffee, theres a good chance something is missing, and you will not have your cup of coffee.

      News is the same,

      If bits of news is missing and your only allowed to choose limited ingredients,
      You will not be able to do or judge what is required.

      No news item is off limits or to be categorised as conspiracy nowadays because they all have agendas to their boss whom pays them their wage packets,

      Freedom of press, ….All press….is important, so an overall view can be made by all.
      Without that choice you are living in a government dictatorship.

    136. James Che. says:

      Breeks.

      Compliments on your commentry. 18 june, 8 : 51 am.

      Robert Hughes.
      I liked your response to breeks analyis.

    137. Scott says:

      Confused writes something about Orkney, then along comes Ellis as backup…what a surprise.

      Fun fact: Ellis junior wrote her thesis on the subject of Orkney/Dublin and the Vikings.

      https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/handle/1810/275327?show=full

      “Being part of a diaspora does not necessarily mean that this was their primary affiliation.” – how apposite

    138. James Che. says:

      The majority of Scots don’t think like you lot on here,
      They think only like me he often says, I am in the good club, the right group, those that pick on others,

      It obviously has not occurred to him then, he’s probably on the wrong site,

      Trying to forcefully Brainwash people here to think as he thinks is school yard bullying. And to prove that right he resorts to name calling and verbal abuse exactly the same as a school kid.

      Aye yah aye, honestly

    139. Mark Boyle says:

      Confused says:
      18 June, 2022 at 1:36 pm

      The cultural thievery of the English should also be noted – everyone loves Tolkien; I do too, but he had an agenda

      Oh please fuck off back to your own dimension you clown!

    140. Andy Ellis says:

      @Scatt 4.24 pm

      “Fun fact: Ellis junior wrote her thesis on the subject of Orkney/Dublin and the Vikings.”

      Creepily obsessed online stalker extends his activities to the children of his victim. You really just can’t help yourself Scott can you?

      No matter how low the bar you just limbo right under don’t you? Why would any remotely balanced person think what the child of a poster wrote for a thesis about 11th century vikings was in any way relevant?

      Are you still planning to visit Edinburgh with your carer by the way? Give us a heads up about dates and I’ll alert the authorities about a restraining order ya utter roaster.

    141. George Ferguson says:

      An unwelcome and sinister development. Bringing people’s bairns into the debate. I have had agreements and disagreements with Andy. But I would never bring his children into the debate. You must be very proud of her Andy. A sad state of affairs when Independence supporters are the new enemy.

    142. Andy Ellis says:

      @James Che 4.27 pm

      What makes you think you or those who either agree with you or tolerate your interminable rants represent any more than a small cadre of folk on here, still less amongst those who visit or read the site? Even a pretty deranged collection of personality defects like Scott thinks your contributions are without merit, and anyone with a brain can see the man has issues.

      How can posting on here amount to brainwashing or trying to force people to think as I do? You’d have to be pretty dim-witted or suggestible for that. Mind you given the debating style of some in here that wouldn’t exactly surprise me.

      Stop clutching your pearls and man up James. Being thought of as a roaster or identified as a moonhowler isn’t the end of the world. Things could be worse: Ruby could be on here cunt-calling you every other post. It is of course entirely symptomatic of the usual suspect on here that their concern about abuse and name calling applies only to one side. It’s the same kind of othering tactics used by britnats during indyref1, and just like then it isn’t fooling anyone with a sense of perspective and functioning moral compass.

    143. Breeks says:


      Confused says:
      18 June, 2022 at 1:36 pm

      – to create a mythology of the English, he has to go out and plagiarise every myth from every other culture he can find. Ha!

      I’d read that too, but I found it strange, because England had it’s fair share of folklore and mythology. Tolkein also said the Lord of the Rings wasn’t an allegory for WW1, despite the dead marshes, and fell beasts and eagles fighting for air supremacy. Nor was Gandalf ever meant to be the Christian Resurrection. OK, if you say so Mr Tolkein.

      But without getting started on Tolkein, I can think of somebody else who proves him wrong.

      No I’m not really in to him, he’s not my cup of tea, in fact it’s probably more accurate to say I’m really not in to him, and I’m especially not into guff evangelical “music”. But Chris de Burgh had a song in the ’80s called Crusader, and it was, as implied, about the Crusades.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6SkaFMTihI

      Now nevermind what you think about the artist, nevermind the religion or the subject, nevermind even the music… I encourage you to give it a listen, because I have never heard any song which has conveyed a more poignant and emotive story so succinctly, and yet it’s actually quite beautifully structured and put together. The man is a master storyteller, and once you hear the story, you will never forget it.

      The reason I mention it, is because you’re not just listening to Chris de Burgh the musician, what you’re actually doing is listening to an ages old tradition of a Minstrel communicating an extremely powerful oral history of an actual event that happened over 800 years ago in the 12th Century, and when he’s done, a part of you actually feels like you were there with a sword in your hand.

      No stories or folklore of it’s own eh? The English are as blind and dismissive towards their own culture as they are to everyone else’s… and they really shouldn’t be.

    144. James Che. says:

      Wow,
      Genetically unique,
      Thats me.
      Born Of Scots, Welsh, Irish and English ancestory, and have traced my ancestory to a few years before 1066.

      Perhaps I will change my name to James Celtic.

    145. Andy Ellis says:

      @George Ferguson 5.00 pm

      We are immensely proud of her. Scott has form for this kind of thing, moving on from a rather troubling obsession with me personally and my background, before extending it to my family.

      He’s been called out about it by a number of people before, including by some who are by no means my biggest fans like Hatuey in the past, but it appears to do no good.

      Apparently he wants to come to Edinburgh to meet in a pub so he and a neighbour (for which I think we read “carer”) can laugh at me. I’m not sure I’d feel entirely comfortable or even safe being in Scott’s company even in a public place given his MO.

      It’s not hard to see why “Scott” would want to retain his anonymity of course. It’s easy to try and intimidate people using such tactics when you’re a snivelling anonymous online coward.

    146. Scott says:

      Walter Mitty says:
      18 June, 2022 at 4:49 pm

      Why would any remotely balanced person think what the child of a poster wrote for a thesis about 11th century vikings was in any way relevant?

      —-

      “Confused writes something about Orkney, then along comes Ellis as backup…what a surprise.” – I wrote that and linked to Dr Ellis’s thesis for a reason, Walter.

      I could have added ‘from left field’ after Orkney, but alert readers are already alert to your MO.

    147. James Che. says:

      Good old celtic blood runs in my veins before anglo saxon invasions.
      Thanks andy.

    148. Ruby says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      9:43 a.m.
      If you gave folk like Republic of Scotland, Robert Graham and Ruby enemas you’d be able to fit what was left in a matchbox.

      Andy Ellis says:
      5:01 pm

      Ruby could be on here cunt-calling you every other post.

      I’ve been on his mind all day. Old Andy doesn’t like to be called names!

      Isn’t that a hoot!

      He’s made up a new verb ‘cunt calling’

      I’ve made up a new noun which accurately describes Ellis’ calling.
      He has a ‘cunt calling’. That is a strong inner impulse toward behaving like a cunt.

    149. Andy Ellis says:

      @James Che 5.13 pm

      Get back to us with the details of your genome James and let us know how pure you are.

      I understand tests are quite reasonable these days.

    150. Mark Boyle says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      18 June, 2022 at 4:49 pm

      @Scatt 4.24 pm

      “Fun fact: Ellis junior wrote her thesis on the subject of Orkney/Dublin and the Vikings.”

      Creepily obsessed online stalker extends his activities to the children of his victim. You really just can’t help yourself Scott can you?

      No matter how low the bar you just limbo right under don’t you? Why would any remotely balanced person think what the child of a poster wrote for a thesis about 11th century vikings was in any way relevant?

      Fun fact: creepy little bastard Scott’s post may just have backfired big time! 😀

      I’m involved in the Govan Stones (when not coughing my lungs up …), and reading up on Dr Ellis’ areas of expertise sounds right up our street, since as you may already know the kingdom of the Clyde Britons had a wee bit of bother from the ASBO hordes from Dublin and Orkney treating the area as an Enslave All You Want Buffet until Constantine And The Gang came along, which all but forced the various bits of what we now call Scotland to unite against common foes.

      Will forward on her bibliography to the relevant folksies.

      (Bloody hell, a medieval historian who is ex-Cambridge, Oxford AND Durham – am well impressed!)

    151. Ruby says:

      George Ferguson says:
      18 June, 2022 at 5:00 pm

      An unwelcome and sinister development. Bringing people’s bairns into the debate. I have had agreements and disagreements with Andy. But I would never bring his children into the debate. You must be very proud of her Andy. A sad state of affairs when Independence supporters are the new enemy.

      Why not George? Is it any worse than bringing someone’s disability, lack of education, place of residence, mental health etc etc into the debate.
      Has Andy Ellis not made his children, their friends, employers, pupils etc part of the debate by posting online?
      If Andy Ellis was my father I would be hugely embarrassed by his online activity.

    152. Ruby says:

      (Bloody hell, a medieval historian who is ex-Cambridge, Oxford AND Durham – am well impressed!)

      Is that the same qualifications as Boris?

    153. Scott says:

      Mark Boyle says:
      18 June, 2022 at 5:36 pm

      Fun fact: creepy little bastard Scott’s post may just have backfired big time! ?

      I’m involved in the Govan Stones (when not coughing my lungs up …), and reading up on Dr Ellis’ areas of expertise sounds right up our street

      Here’s the link to request a copy of Walter Mitty’syour daughter’s thesis, AndyMark

      https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/handle/1810/275327/restricted-resource?bitstreamId=1155195

      It’s not publicly available yet, unlike that of the resident idiot with imposter syndrome.

      I’ve always wanted to ask ellis why he took so long after leaving St Andrews to submit his thesis, and also why he wrote words of thanks to the woman who typed it, prefaced with “It is customary to thank…” I’ve not read any other thesis that does that. Seemed a bit grudgingly given, to me. It’s almost as though he doesn’t really like women.

    154. Andy Ellis says:

      @Tourette’s Ruby 5.40 pm

      “Has Andy Ellis not made his children, their friends, employers, pupils etc part of the debate by posting online?”

      It my have passed someone with your vestigial moral compass by Ruby, but during indyref1 when the britnats and yoons “othered” ordinary independence supporters in the media as cybernats, it was widely condemned by those in the movement who saw it for what it was: an attempt to intimidate those targeted in to silence by bringing their families, employers and friends in to the debate whether they liked it or not, or whether they were interested or not.

      Again. it’s hardly surprising that someone with your MO sees no issue with Scott’s behaviour based purely on your personal animus.

      It’s vanishingly unlikely that my daughter would have anything in common with a low life sweary harridan like you.

    155. John Main says:

      @Saffron Robe 3:08

      Well done, your post wins the golden turd for today.

      Takes a special skill to write a potted history of the British Isles and leave out the Norman Conquest, but you rose to the occasion like a pro.

      As for your claim that pre-history, Britain was “unified”, well, I think the “pre-history” caveat suggests just how much evidence you have to support that. Myself, I claim that pre-history, everybody walked backwards at all times.

      Incidentally, as you seem to take issue with the idea that white people should have any claim to this part of the world, just what colour do you think the original inhabitants were?

    156. Scott says:

      Medieval history = amazing

      Claim of Right Act 1689, Union with England Act 1707 = bags of shite

      *wibble*

    157. Andy Ellis says:

      @Scatt 5.52 pm

      “Seemed a bit grudgingly given, to me. It’s almost as though he doesn’t really like women.”

      I don’t like creepy, obsessive stalkers Scott, or unreasoning idiots: it doesn’t matter what sex they are. I judge people by their behaviour. When people like you show us who they are the first time, it pays to believe them.

    158. John Main says:

      @Ruby 5:40

      “If Andy was my father …”

      Careful Ruby, readers might jump to an unfair conclusion when you post lines like that one.

      Me, I am too much of a gentleman to go there.

    159. Republicofscotland says:

      Calls for Ian (Scotland won’t stand for it) Blackford to stand down after it was leaked that he urged all other SNP MPs to get behind sex pest Patrick Grady.

      The likes of Margaret Ferrier was dropped like a hot potato and had the whip removed for travelling on a train with Covid, yet Grady gets a two day suspension for sleaziness.

      Alex Salmond was charged and went to court for pinging a woman’s ringlets, and was accused of the rape of a woman who wasn’t even in the same building at the time of her preposterous claim in which she never faced any charges such as perjuring herself.

      Others that spring to mind that have suffered as Grady hasn’t are Dr Tim Rideout and Mark MacDonald.

      I hope the useless troughing tub of lard Blackford gets the boot.

      As for wandering hands Grady he should do the right thing and resign.

      “SNP Westminster leader Ian Blackford is facing calls to stand down after a leaked recording showed him urging his colleagues to give their “absolute full support” to an MP suspended for making an “unwanted sexual advance” on a teenager.

      Patrick Grady, formerly the SNP’s chief whip in London, was suspended by both the party and the Commons for two days after an investigation into the allegations against him concluded.

      The probe examined the behaviour of Grady, who was 36 at the time, towards the then-19-year-old party staff member at a 2016 SNP social event while “under the influence of alcohol”.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20220123.snp-ian-blackford-faces-calls-resign-amid-full-support-patrick-grady%2F

    160. Andy Ellis says:

      @John Main 6.04 pm

      I was just sick a wee bit in my mouth.

      Fear not, I wouldn ‘t touch Ruby with Scott’s, and I’m never going to give Scott that date however much he begs. 🙂

    161. Ruby says:

      Andy Ellis says:

      It’s vanishingly unlikely that my daughter would have anything in common with a low life sweary harridan like you.

      How do you know? Do you know everything your daughter does? I might be her lesbian bit of rough!

    162. Ruby says:

      John Main says:
      18 June, 2022 at 6:04 pm

      @Ruby 5:40

      “If Andy was my father …”

      Careful Ruby, readers might jump to an unfair conclusion when you post lines like that one.

      Me, I am too much of a gentleman to go there.

      I never ever get your jokes or attempts to be witty.

      C’mon tell me what conclusion could readers come to?

    163. Scott says:

      Chas must be playing golf.

    164. Ruby says:

      Republicofscotland says:

      Others that spring to mind that have suffered as Grady hasn’t are Dr Tim Rideout and Mark MacDonald.

      That particular case has a lot in common with the Derek MacKay case.

    165. Ruby says:

      It my have passed someone with your vestigial moral compass by Ruby, but during indyref1 when the britnats and yoons “othered” ordinary independence supporters in the media as cybernats, it was widely condemned by those in the movement who saw it for what it was: an attempt to intimidate those targeted in to silence by bringing their families, employers and friends in to the debate whether they liked it or not, or whether they were interested or not.

      Hang on! Were these cybernats not anonymous until a certain person outed them to the D.Mail?

    166. Andy Ellis says:

      @Tourette’s Ruby 6.52 pm

      “Hang on! Were these cybernats not anonymous until a certain person outed them to the D.Mail?”

      None of the cybernat7 were anonymous if I remember rightly, probably because none of them felt the need to snivelling anonymous online cowards like some of the pieces of work in here.

      It’s also worth noting that unlike Scott, the Daily Heil didn’t feel the need to bring the children of the people featured in to it. Says something about the likes of you and Scott that you’re less principled than the brownshirts, eh?

    167. Republicofscotland says:

      So apparently this is Sturgeon’s rote to a indyref. Will it then be a wee pretendy indyref just to see the lie of the land, but not to upset the status quo?

      “NICOLA Sturgeon is planning to hold a consultative second independence referendum in order to bypass any legal difficulties involved in the Union being reserved, according to reports.”

      “con·sulta·tive
      [k?n?s?lt?t?v]
      ADJECTIVE
      intended to give professional advice or recommendations:”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20220336.indyref2-to-consultative-attempt-bypass-legal-issues%2F

    168. Ruby says:

      What’s the big fuss about Ellis? I seem to remember you bringing your daughter into this discussion a couple of months ago.

    169. Republicofscotland says:

      Never directly elected (though he’s made a career out of being rejected by the public) Tory Murdo Fraser, reveals why Westminster is desperate to hold on to Scotland.

      https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/1538104090739322880

    170. Ruby says:

      What age is Ellis’s child?

    171. Republicofscotland says:

      When the Scottish nobles were bought with the Equivalent to vote for the union, Scotland took on England’s £18 million pounds worth of debt.

      We’ve been sending our wealth to London ever since.

      https://twitter.com/7TonyHendrix7/status/1538229845804601349

      England cannot afford to let Scotland out of this union.

    172. Andy Ellis says:

      I see WGD (presumably in his capacity as the conscience of the SNP such as it is) is beginning the process of softening up the lumpen Sturgeonista loyalists for a non binding indyref in his latest piece “That’s what democracy is all about”:

      “Indeed politically an appeal to the courts to block the referendum is a very dangerous road for them to go down, because it would provide definitive proof that they do not respect the democratic will of the people of Scotland and create the strong impression that they seek to hide from the ballot box because they are afraid of the answer that the electorate might give. If the courts try to block a referendum, the river of politics will simply find another course, one which flows all the stronger because of the attempt to dam it.”

      I suppose a pretendy referendum from a pretendy independence party figures, huh?

    173. James Che. says:

      Andy,

      Oh higher up the scale than you young man,

      My father disowned the the lot in favour of NOT being elitist, not being cruel or selfish,
      The war changed his outlook considerable.
      When he saw men with arms and legs missing, with torsos in half, while generals and politicians sat being served the good life at a safe distance.
      The only sacrifice they made were the thousands of husbands, sons and brothers of british citizens,
      He no longer wanted to be so high and utterly contemptible.

      He voluntary left everything behind, went back to working the land after coming home, and becoming and ordinary bloke, the male side of the family have all followed suit for three generations so far,

      We have no inclination to pick up our titles, our two family coats of arms or the family crest,
      They are sitting redundant if you want them,

      He did the right thing by all of us that followed,
      We see life from a much wider view than you ever might be able to,

      We like adapted well and we like people of Scotland very much.

    174. James Che. says:

      Republicofscotland.
      How can the union be reserved to only one country of britain?

      That would make the British parliament an English parliament.

    175. James Che. says:

      Ruby,

      Wrong question.

      What age is Ellis?

    176. Confused says:

      – that escalated quickly … having my tea, a wee swatch at wings, ottomanboi, a cryptic sometimes poster posts a link to a shit book, which I say is shit. The point about JRR being that if “the celts are a myth” then how is it possible to rip off the mythology of a non existent people?

      Writers using others stories is fine by me, I won’t trash Michael Crichton for using Beowulf to write the 13th warrior – it’s this attitude from the english; everything is ours, we invented it, you have nothing, your history, culture, achievement can only be seen in a prism generated by our worldview. JRR is honest about his inspirations though.

      JRR is a much loved figure, but for him the Norman Conquest was Year Zero; he did not like the modern world. Note the reference to “tongue and soil” in the quote! He was also a bit of “conspiracy wackjob” – the big bad guy is this one eye thing, on top of a pyramid – wit ye saying??

      A great film about the viking era in Scotland with no reference to anything English is Valhalla Rising. Made by a Dane. For reasons …

      Stupid vikings, if they had the benefits of the union they could be on the same level as Wales, be protected by nuke subs based in Oslo, and admire the London skyscrapers, twice as high. Neil Oliver is doing a dig in Tromso soon, where he will prove that norwegians are actually ancient BRITS.

      Ellis then posts links which he absolutely misrepresents – its the opposite of what he says it is. Exact opposite.

      Then the junior Ellis thesis; looks a ripper – vikings in their colnies sometimes did, and sometimes did not, do what the homeland wanted. I hope there are some graphs. At the end do we find out if Ragnar Lothbrok was real or not?

      – did not realise “ovulating front feeding front holes” (*) were allowed into cambridge, which has always been about maths, and bumming; keynes, turing, the apostles – they’re loving it. Portillo too.

      and a bit of yah boo (and overuse of the bold) from Boyle, a game halfwit.

      You just can’t get this kind of ding-doing in the comments bit of the herald.

      (*) – someone should create a catchier name for this category of human.

    177. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      I tend just to read the well anticipated articles from Stuart nowadays rather than join in the BTL bin-fires.

      But had to quote that odious rude reptile, Mist001. He/she/it enjoyed much free hospitality care of the Wings website owner. Yet the French dwelling sack of excrement has been flinging his monkey jobbies all over the internet.
      What an ungrateful hypocritical crunt that old, baldy twatty Mist001 turned out to be. Not mist at all.

      Wings Over Scotland and the creep that runs it are doing Westminsters job for them. They are the enemy within. Every independence supporter should disassociate themselves from that website lest they all be tarred with the same brush.— Mist001 (@Mist0017) June 16, 2022

    178. Alf Baird says:

      Just to note that the Picts inhabited most of what is today Scotland, and before the Dalriada Scoti arrived in Argyll. The ‘traditional foe’ of the Picts according to the Roman Agricola was the Britoni (i.e. folk south of the wall). And the Vikings were not welcome in Orkney, Shetland or Caithness where they ‘devastated’ the Pictish communities who were the descendants of the Neolithic people. The Scots are primarily descendants of the Picts. We should perhaps rename Scotland as Pictland, which is what it was before the various invaders arrived. This also helps explain why our Scots language is neither English, Gaelic or Norse.

    179. Confused says:

      I would recommend Stuart McHardy’s “New History of the Picts” – his main point being : the Picts are still here, within us – when the (dalriada) Scots and Picts merged their ruling class, the Pictish culture died out because it was not a written one, so “the Picts disappeared”, and you get convenient myths like “the Scots genocided the Picts”. There is no evidence for that.

      The PEOPLE OF THE ISLES website with the DNA CLUSTER STUDIES is something I recommend; from the site, the only sentence you need to know –

      “The most striking observation is the extraordinary correspondence between the genetic clusters and geographical location.”

      – it establishes there is a link between peoples and their land, who we are, and are not, and where we came from. Oddly, unionists don’t seem too keen on using its material; this is because it clearly establishes the (modern) Scots as a distinct people from the English, and the English themselves a queer mixture of the celt and anglo-saxon. Other interesting things – lowland Scotland is not Anglo-Saxon, even more so – Northumbria is not really Anglo-Saxon. England also splits north to south (yes, it’s a real thing) and east to west, the more northern and western being a patchwork quilt of celtic clusters.

      The modern Scots are 3 clusters – gaelic, pictish and nordic (orcadians are fascinating even among themselves for their own micro diversity).

    180. Mark Boyle says:

      Alf, the decision to go by the name Alba rather than Pictavia seems to have been down to the simple fact the Scots had a written language (Gaelic) whereas the majority Picts were a purely oral culture.

      It was recognised that the best chance of achieving a lasting unity (and not allowing the Vikings to continually divide and conquer) was in having a more robust culture which would allow for the centralisation and dissemination of information amongst its component parts quicker and easier (and not requiring continuous great face to face meetings of all its leaders).

      The Vikings were very slow in realising how much being able to write, keep written records, have agreements committed to paper, disseminate information, etc. gave their prey a great advantage in the long run over them, mainly because they were never part of the Roman Empire and so unlike the Frankish and Germanic tribes didn’t grasp how useful it was until it was too late or they were assimilated into the very societies they’d sought to conquer.

    181. Saffron Robe says:

      Alf Baird and Confused. Very interesting comments. I remember watching an excellent documentary years ago (I forget the name now) which described how the Celts from the West and the Picts from the North and East merged together in Scotland with the Celts eventually becoming dominant. This was reflected in the royal lineage which gradually changed from Pictish to Celtic.

    182. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Saffron Robe: just to complicate things further…

      https://electricscotland.com/history/articles/scotsirish.htm

    183. Ottomanboi says:

      DNA is a false route, old style racism by the back door. Cuture is the determinant. Culture as manifest, in particular, in language is the major distinctive mark of ethnicity.
      West Europeans broadly share the same genetic markers but Europe is a continent of many languages, most without political status, and many states for a relatively small area.
      The Caucasus is linguistically diverse but the all the peoples are genetically similar, likewise the Mid East. As a Syriac I am linguistically not Arab, although probably sharing similar «semitic» genes with «turkic» additions.
      Celts, insular and continental are a distinct linguistic group whose common linguistic traces stretch from Scotland to Iberia and central Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatian_language
      The evidence is manifest in place names particularly in Scotland where Celtic type Brythonic, Pictish, Gaelic mix with Norse and Anglian. Scotland was Brythonic/Pictish before it was Gaelic, Norse and Inglis and the Scotti were an Irish tribe. I think that is sufficient diverse cultural material for any nation.

    184. Mark Boyle says:

      Confused says:
      18 June, 2022 at 10:34 pm

      JRR is a much loved figure, but for him the Norman Conquest was Year Zero; he did not like the modern world. Note the reference to “tongue and soil” in the quote! He was also a bit of “conspiracy wackjob” – the big bad guy is this one eye thing, on top of a pyramid – wit ye saying??

      Tolkien like most famous people had to put up with cretins like you inventing all manner of claims as to what he “believed” simply because they wanted it to be true in order to self validate their own delusional view of the world.

      Back in those days you could either sue, which was a risky business often resulting in the award of derisory costs at best (and offset against the even more derisory pay professional academics received in those days), or simply ignore it, knowing the morons in question were simply looking for a bit of your limelight to draw attention to themselves.

      The Eye of Sauron (which wasn’t on a pyramid, cretin) was based on Birmingham Uni’s “Old Joe” Joseph Chamberlain clock tower – one of the first to be lit inside at night and visible for miles, nothing masonic as you’re thinking, clown.

      and a bit of yah boo (and overuse of the bold) from Boyle, a game halfwit.

      Being called a halfwit by a fuckwit – there’s a conundrum for the Sages.

    185. Ruby says:

      The Pretenderendum

      That is clever.

    186. stuart mctavish says:

      @Mark Boyle

      Might be an opportune moment to observe that, irrespective of whether history, repeats, rhymes or echoes*, its crystal clear that at least once upon a time, indiscreet encounters with Scots’ alpha-betties must ultimately have resulted in an exciting future for Jock Pctavia’s bairns

      *If it mirrors, change Jock to Jacinda and you’ll soon get the picture..

    187. Ruby says:

      What’s going on here? Is it a competition to see how knows the most history?

    188. Ruby says:

      Since Andy Ellis posted the following

      It’s vanishingly unlikely that my daughter would have anything in common with a low life sweary harridan like you.

      I’ve been wondering about iScotland and class discrimination.
      Will anything change?

      Class discrimination is a huge problem and yet it is never discussed.

      How acceptable is it to call someone a schemie or a low life?

      Andy Ellis says he’s proud of his daughter. I wonder how proud he would be if she had learning difficulties or tourettes?

    189. Alf Baird says:

      Ottomanboi @ 8:44 am

      “DNA is a false route, old style racism by the back door. Culture is the determinant. Culture as manifest, in particular, in language is the major distinctive mark of ethnicity.”

      Postcolonial theory also supports the culture/language determinant and highlights the critical significance of ethnicity. Most peoples in self-determination conflict are culturally/linguistically divided. Most independence movements therefore depend on the solidarity of an ethnic group. Scots are no different in this regard; ‘a people’ only becoming nationalists in order to remove the oppressor and his alien culture. As Frantz Fanon said, independence is primarily ‘a fight for a national culture’.

      https://wp.towson.edu/iajournal/spring-2022-2/

    190. John Main says:

      @Stuart McTavish 9:14

      Or beta-betties.

      Actually, it runs all the way through to omicron, pronounced omigod.

      As in, there’s a new post from that omigod-bettie.

    191. Ruby says:

      Is class discrimination old style racism by the back door?

    192. Ruby says:

      John Main says:
      19 June, 2022 at 9:44 am

      @Stuart McTavish 9:14

      Or beta-betties.

      Actually, it runs all the way through to omicron, pronounced omigod.

      As in, there’s a new post from that omigod-bettie.

      Tumbleweed moment!

    193. Republicofscotland says:

      Re my 6.07pm comment last night it would appear that there’s a witch hunt on by the SNP, to find who recorded Blackford urging other SNP MPs to support Patrick Grady.

    194. John Main says:

      @Alf Baird 9:38

      If there is anything in this theory of yours, it should have some predictive capability. It is the mapping of a theory to the real world that allows its value to be assessed. A good theory will tell you things about the real world that perhaps you had not observed. As an engineer, you know all this, of course.

      What aspects of the oppressor’s “alien culture” are we going to be keeping post-Indy. For example, I like my windows, and my sofa. The traditional Black House had none of these things. For centuries, travellers were accommodated in the nearest roofed dwelling when night fell. That was an iron rule across the Highlands. Should we be expecting that to come back?

      On the solidarity of which ethnic group does the Scots Indy movement depend? The answer to that question, if your theory is correct, should enable us to assess the numbers for Yes and No, depending on the size of that ethnic group as a proportion of Scottish voters.

    195. Ruby says:

      Republicofscotland says:
      19 June, 2022 at 9:55 am

      Re my 6.07pm comment last night it would appear that there’s a witch hunt on by the SNP, to find who recorded Blackford urging other SNP MPs to support Patrick Grady.

      Very Interesting!

    196. Breeks says:

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20220355.independent-scotland-would-legally-free-paying-uk-debts%2F

      This narrative about a debt free Scotland seems to be gaining traction, but unfortunately, I believe it is completely wrong.

      It’s true, a seceding country, a nation breaking away from it’s mother country is not responsible for the Continuer State’s debt, but that is NOT the Scottish scenario.

      We are constitutional equals in a Union; two separate sovereign Kingdoms joining by international Treaty as equal kingdoms, neither Nation being the Constitutional superior or inferior to the other.

      When the Treaty of Union ends, Scotland does not “leave” the UK, the UK is at an end and ceases to exist, and the Kingdoms of Scotland and England are resurrected to their pre-Union condition.

      There will not be a Continuer UK State and a Seceded Scottish Nation. There will be no Continuer state at all, just two separate and Constitutionally equal Nations.

      Scotland is not being created. Scotland is not seceding. Independence is not separation from the UK, it is the ENDING of the UK. The United Kingdom of Scotland and England will no longer exist.

      Because we will part as Scotland and England, Constitutional Equals, there is no case to be made for offloading UK debt onto England. England is not the Continuer UK State.

      The UK debt will, in my opinion, be apportioned on an equal per capita share. What belonged to Scotland before, will be Scotland’s again, in terms of territory and possession, ditto England, and then one almighty negotiation will begin to apportion fair and equitable share any joint UK assets, whether they be debts or assets.

      As far as I can see, the only hope for Scotland to recover any worth from Scotland’s plundered resources will be to demonstrate that Scotland’s resources were asymmetrically plundered to Scotland’s disadvantage.

      Yes, I absolutely agree that Scotland had no control over the UK Government getting into debt, but in Constitutional terms, Scotland’s place in the Union has been consensual. We might not like to see it that way, but it’s true. We could have left, but for 300+ years chose not to, so Scotland WILL share a degree of Corporate responsibility for the UK.

      Don’t sugar coat this. This Corporate liability is what Scottish Independence will bring to an end and the burden which will be removed from us. We are in partnership with a lunatic, but only now exercising our right to leave the partnership.

      The one exception to this notion of Corporate UK liability is Brexit…. possibly. Scotland said an emphatic NO to Brexit, so Scotland should not be liable for the losses incurred “by” Brexit. Although, Sturgeon’s unconstitutional and cowardly capitulation might have screwed that up too.

      Now, maybe I’m wrong. If you’re the sane partner in a partnership with a lunatic, maybe you’re not responsible for a per capita share of the partner’s lunacy. But we have lived with lunacy this for 315 years. This will be a complicated divorce, not a simple debt free annulment.

    197. Republicofscotland says:

      If we ever do manage to ditch this God awful union, we might stop propping up England financially, like we’ve done since day one.

      “SCOTLAND would be under no legal obligation to pay a share of UK debt after independence and could use it as a negotiating tactic, according to a global expert on referendums.

      Professor Matt Qvortrup said a UN convention which dealt with the issue was never formally ratified and Scotland could give “two fingers” to the national debt if it wanted.

      “The alimony money Scotland would have to pay – that is where the divorce settlement doesn’t kick in,” he said.

      “You don’t have to pay the other person’s mortgage if you leave the house.””

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20220355.independent-scotland-would-legally-free-paying-uk-debts%2F

    198. Breeks says:

      I am also perplexed by the EU looking ever more likely to sanction new membership for a Nation currently at war, since that approval would appear highly antagonistic and provocative towards the Nation who it’s at war with… (And a bit of a slap in the face for Turkey too).

      However, EU Membership is arguably the lesser of two “evils” to be joining when compared to “other” alliances, which might mean that EU Membership might be a concessionary option, designed as a face saving compromise between parties trying to find a peaceful resolution.

      Otherwise, I’m completely lost. What are you doing Ursula von der Leyen?

    199. Robert Hughes says:

      ” What are you doing Ursula von der Leyen? ”

      What she’s told .

    200. Effigy says:

      U.K. media collude to cover up confirmed story that Boris was caught
      having relationships in the Foreign Office with Carrie while still married to another.

      He tried to hand Carrie a £100,000 per year government role due her physical agility rather than mental capability.

      Read all about another truth you are not allowed to see and yet another condemnation of Boris’ character and that of the Tories/U.K. Media.

      https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/boris-johnson-wanted-to-give-carrie-symonds-a-100000-downing-street-role/

    201. stuart mctavish says:

      Or McHardy angels!

      Trouble with the omacon variant is that one day the filthy unvaccinated deserve isolation and non citizenship yet not long after, if some of the pictures are to be believed, its happily circulating in a war zone along with no small potential for a dose of the cheeky monkey pox

    202. Republicofscotland says:

      Breeks @10.34am

      “Ursula von der Leyen her ideological orientation has become more and more radical, as a foreign and security policy hawk who has fully integrated herself into the transatlantic NATO strategy, standing behind the model of militarisation of the EU and the West with a “policy of strength” to continue a new Cold War.”

      She’s right behind a more aggressive EU foreign policy combined with an increase in military spending which her own country Germany has recently announced it will do.

      She’s descended from the well know Albrecht family rich and privileged her father is remebered for the Celle Hole false flag operation.

      Ursula von der Leyen is also a prominent member of the Atlantic Council.

    203. Republicofscotland says:

      Effigy @10.47am.

      Yes the story has suddenly taken a back seat, well according to this it has.

      https://twitter.com/david_hewson/status/1538232726217793538?cxt=HHwWhIC9wfeg89gqAAAA

      Someone claiming the story can still be found at these sites.

      “Is it on the

      @BBCWorld

      @BBCNews

      @BBCPolitics”

      https://twitter.com/hererofrtime/status/1538165217804406784

    204. Andy Ellis says:

      @Breeks 10.34 pm

      So let’s get this straight: we have purported supporters of Scottish nationalism accepting that the concerns of a former imperial power, which recently invaded a country which used to be in a union with it, should take precedence over the wishes of the newly independent country, or even that the former imperial power should be allowed to veto the democratic decisions of the newly independent country?

      EU spokespeople have said that the invaded will still have to abide by all the applicable rules. Full membership will take years, because there is still progress to be made, and it’s likely to take years for them to recover from the Orc invasion. The decision to accelerate candidate membership has been acknowledged as a special case given existential threat being faced not just by the invaded country, but potentially by those who would be next like Moldova and Georgia if Vlad’s Orcs get their way.

      Vlad’s war of aggression has rebounded on him, propelling Sweden and Norway in to NATO, and accelerating the accession of Western Balkan states into the EU and the candidate membership of others.

      The war won’t last forever, but it’s not likely those invaded will accept defeat or clientship to the former imperial power, nor is it in the interests of the EU, NATO or any democracy to expect them to do so.

    205. Ottomanboi says:

      ALF BAIRD 08:44
      Within a continental European intellectual context that would be self-evident. In the the anglophone world that context is alien, even rebarbative.
      There is more to independence than just a flag and embassies.

    206. Alf Baird says:

      John Main @ 10:01 am

      “On the solidarity of which ethnic group does the Scots Indy movement depend? The answer to that question, if your theory is correct, should enable us to assess the numbers for Yes and No, depending on the size of that ethnic group as a proportion of Scottish voters.”

      Postcolonial theory (based on actual events/evidence) tells us that during colonialism the indigenous ethnic group is divided; native elites and bourgeoisie mostly remaining in favour of the status quo in order to maintain and protect their own privileges and status. We should remember that colonialism is always a co-operative venture, including forms of ‘indirect rule’ etc, in which native elites holding power locally assume the culture, language and values – and therefore the identity also – of the oppressor.

      That said, we know that those Scots holding to only or mainly a Scottish national identity mostly vote for independence. Conversely, Scots holding to a Scottish AND British or mainly a British identity tend to vote against independence. The latter group consists largely of the elite and bourgeoisie native element, as we know.

    207. Alf Baird says:

      Ottomanboi @ 11:56 am

      “There is more to independence than just a flag and embassies.”

      Indeed, there are also vital economic and trading connections for a people/culture to maintain and build, or rebuild in our under-developed case, which are also connections between national cultures:

      https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2022/06/18/a-ferry-scotland-to-europe/

      Practically the first thing the Estonian’s did on independence was to set up a ferry company and restart historic trans-Baltic trade links, thereby reducing the nation’s dependence on the limiting and costly Moscow supply chain. Scotland similarly has to re-focus away from London, in most respects, much as Ireland has done.

    208. Ottomanboi says:

      ALF BAIRD. 12:13
      «refocussing» from anglocentricism in all its sociocultural aspects. That takes confidence.
      Leadership must be unashamedly «confident» which comes from being master of the required skills.
      No room for doubt. No room for nostalgia. This is an all or nothing contest. What cannot be «recycled» should be replaced.

    209. James Che. says:

      Breeks,

      The majority of time I can not dispute what you write,

      However in written history Scotland was not a consensual partner to the union,

      It is written that Scots were not informed of the union that was being planned, and when word eventually got out there were riots of protest in Scotland against this union,
      The participating members either went into hiding or flee’d for their safety.

      And a army was sent up from England to quell the Scots rebelion.
      There has been ever since the beginning of the unauthorised union attempts and plans by Scots to regain that stolen non consensual independence of their country.
      Thus today we Scots still not agreeable to Scotland in a union, that seek to be a independent country once again.
      This history of objection to the union has lasted more than 300 years.

      In no manner or by historical record could it be construed as consensual on the side of the Scots.

      Another part of history refers to not asking the Scots for their consent to the union, as the English parliament knew the Scots would vote against the union,

      Scotland is written history was taken at the end of the day by an English army sent up to quell the Scots in Scotland.
      Scotland voluntary joining the union by consent is not historically recorded.
      Only the old Parliament of Scotland joined in a treaty of union with England’s parliament.
      Then that treaty itself requested that the Scottish parliament close its doors,
      Annulling one member of the Treaty.

      The Scottish parliament did close it doors, and no longer continued as a working parliament for all these years,

      The devolved government is of English construction and is basically run with permission of England for it to exist,
      the reserved matters to Englands parliament of immigration, defence etc tell you it is not a Scottish parliament in its own right,

      The only saving grace for Scotland after its enforced colonisation is the Scottish parliament’s three estates included the “Claim of Right”
      And it ” Sine die “its parliament on closure, meaning we can recall our Scots parliament any time or any place we like.

      That is what retained Sovereignty of the Scots as separate from the people of England in the 1707 treaty of the union.

    210. James Che. says:

      The treaty of the union also refers to and recognises “Scots” as a individual group of people set apart from Englands people in country and nationality.

    211. Breeks says:

      James Che. says:
      19 June, 2022 at 12:51 pm

      Breeks,

      The majority of time I can not dispute what you write,

      However in written history Scotland was not a consensual partner to the union…

      While that’s true, and I agree the Union has never been properly Constitutional, the Union could not have survived without the tacit cooperation of house jocks putting their own interests above their country and their countrymen. The Union couldn’t have worked without that collaboration and unwillingness to see the mistreatment of Scotland.

      It is however a technical fact that Scotland’s place in the Union is consensual. That is why Scotland’s rejection of Brexit was pivotal… or should have been.

      It is an affliction we have not yet been cured of. The percentage of Scots content to live with the Union outnumbered, and typically outranked, the numbers of Scots who would pull it down.

      We hope the times are a-changing, but it’s been a long time coming, and we’re not there yet.

    212. Dan says:

      Alf Baird says: at 9:38 am

      Postcolonial theory also supports the culture/language determinant and highlights the critical significance of ethnicity. Most peoples in self-determination conflict are culturally/linguistically divided. Most independence movements therefore depend on the solidarity of an ethnic group. Scots are no different in this regard; ‘a people’ only becoming nationalists in order to remove the oppressor and his alien culture. As Frantz Fanon said, independence is primarily ‘a fight for a national culture’.”

      That take pretty much sums up my interest and motivations for Scotland returning to pre-Union self-governing status.
      I class myself more as an anti-corruptionist rather than a nationalist.
      In my view the main “culture” of corruption is effectively imposed onto and maintained in Scotland by the external government of another country which holds all the major powers that the long renowned generally decent indigenous fair-minded Scots would require to properly address reining in the worst of those badly corrupted practices.

      That said, obviously many in oor ain “pro-Indy” Parties and the Scottish Parliament over recent years have not exactly been behaving and administering in a particularly un-corrupt manner, and have themselves been acting like a poundshop Westminster…

      The whole point of Indy is surely for Scotland to be governed in a better more ethical fashion than the shitshow of complex twisted “democracy” and corruption that we currently have to endure.
      I’ve removed myself from YES groups mailing lists recently because I feel they are too meek or political Party captured to take a stand and call out and distance themselves from the corrupt behaviour of folk and organisations supposedly on oor side.
      I have standards, and think that folk cannot campaign honestly and with integrity to promote a cause for a better future if they are willing to ignore or simply sweep all the bad stuff under the carpet.

    213. Republicofscotland says:

      Unsurprisingly one of Sturgeon’s closest clique members Angus Robertson is fully defending Ian (Scotland won’t stand for it) Blackford’s handling of the Patrick Grady fiasco.

      We all now how Joanna Cherry was treated by Blackford and the SNP when she hinted that she was going to stand for a seat at Holyrood, she was sidelined and Robertson parachuted in to take her candidacy for the seat in Edinburgh.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.heraldscotland.com%2Fpolitics%2F20220586.angus-robertson-defends-ian-blackford-patrick-grady-sexual-harassment-row%2F

    214. DavidRitchie says:

      Name calling will
      get you nowhere My priorities are cost of living health issues and being inundated with scam phonecalls to my landline and mobile including a scam text.But I will consider it if a ref is called When it is called and with the pandemic rising again TV radio press radio will be vital. You wont get to people through social media etc or because of the pandemic door knocking which is my preferred way but with the pandemic still on the rise might not be possible. Then we dont know what the industrial situation will be in October next year plus what if Boris says no

    215. Republicofscotland says:

      Just like the underfunding of our dentists via NHS patients, which means with common procedures many dentists are refusing to do them because it costs more to do it than they receive from the Scottish government, Lawyers in Scotland are on the verge of declining cases that are not financially viable due to cuts in legal aid by the Scottish government.

      Scotland is falling apart under the guidance of Sturgeon, bring back Alex Salmond.

      “SCOTLAND’S biggest criminal defence lawyer group has warned that the entire criminal justice system is “in imminent danger of collapse” because of an impasse on legal aid payments which has led to a mass boycott of the duty solicitor scheme.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.heraldscotland.com%2Fnews%2Fhomenews%2F20220395.scotlands-entire-criminal-justice-system-brink-collapse%2F

    216. John Main says:

      @Alf Baird 12:13

      Interesting that you bring up Estonia.

      I recently read an article by a woman (can’t remember where, but probably on Unherd) who had interviewed president [redacted] at some length. He reminisced fondly of his happy times in Estonia as a young man. The interview took place some years ago, but the interviewer was in no doubt that his nostalgia for his current target, [redacted], and his desire to see it brought safely home to Mother Russia, extends also to Estonia.

      It will be interesting to see how Scotland plans to cover all future contingencies once independent. We too will have a shared border with an imperialist, colonialist oppressor, if your theory is correct. It will only take a slide into autocratic tyranny (perhaps with a side order of convenient religion) in England for nostalgia for the days when “this island used to be one country” to gain a toehold.

      I see some on here decrying the EU’s “hasty” policy. We might wish to think carefully if the precedent thus established might be to our own future advantage. After all, if we do decide to walk away and leave rUK with our debts (as proposed by some), we might find aggressive hostility directed our way very soon indeed.

    217. Republicofscotland says:

      “Then we don’t know what the industrial situation will be in October next year plus what if Boris says no”

      David Ritchie

      I posted the link below last night, apparently Sturgeon is going to hold a “Consultative” indyref to bypass the legalities.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20220336.indyref2-to-consultative-attempt-bypass-legal-issues%2F

    218. Republicofscotland says:

      A interesting take on an indyref to get round legalities.

      “A REFERENDUM next October could simply ask Scots if they would like the Scottish Government to start negotiations on independence with ministers in London.

      According to reports this morning, that could avoid a court challenge on the legality of the vote.”

      Bearing this in mind of course.

      “Under the Scotland Act 1998, the union is reserved to Westminster, however, constitutional matters and referenda are not.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.heraldscotland.com%2Fpolitics%2F20220694.indyref2-question-tweaked-avoid-legal-row%2F

    219. Republicofscotland says:

      BLiS MSP already trying to dilute the indy vote options.

      “A SENIOR Scottish Labour MSP has called for the option of “devo max” to be put to voters in Indyref2 alongside “yes” and “no” to independence.

      Alex Rowley, a former deputy leader of the party, said a multi-option vote could help end a “stalemate” in Scotland and also allow his party to participate in the constitutional debate in a way distinct from the Conservatives.

      He said a third option of “home rule” or “devo max” could be put on the ballot paper and called on the SNP to consider backing the move as a possible way forward.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.heraldscotland.com%2Fpolitics%2F20218692.scottish-independence-msp-demands-home-rule-alternative-yes-no%2F

    220. Mark Boyle says:

      DavidRitchie says:
      19 June, 2022 at 3:04 pm

      My priorities are cost of living health issues and being inundated with scam phonecalls to my landline and mobile including a scam text.

      David, O/T but for the record BT’s range of phones with call blocker options are excellent for solving this (you don’t have to have a BT contract for these to work), as they autoblock calls from mass diallers or those attempting to mask mass dialler numbers (there’s also a manual ability to block individual numbers which comes in useful).

      Also, never, ever, reply to any junk mail. Do it once, and your name and contact details will be circulated on “sucker” lists from now until the day you die.

      You can help keep a postie in work however if it came with a freepost envelope, simply seal the empty envelope shut and pop into your nearest postbox …

    221. Ron Maclean says:

      2 recent posts from craigmurray.org.uk – ‘No Debt’ and ‘Standards’.

    222. James Che. says:

      Breeks.

      The treaty is not consensual as the Scots were not ask at the time by a deliberate decision not to put it to a vote in 1707. Because the Scots would more than likely vote against it.
      Source UK parliament government site 2022.
      They were aware that a vote could and should have been put to the Scots to join the treaty of the union way back in 1707.

      That is not consensual.

      The whole of Scotland and Scots did not join the treaty of the union.

      We again look for consent of the Scots in the treaty of the union agreement,
      And we find that her Majesty choose the commissioners on behalf of the kingdom of Scotland.

      Where is the consent of the Scots?

      Again under the sovereignty of the ” claim of Right” and ” Sine die” of the Scottish parliament we experience no total submission on consensual agreement by the Scots, to forever abiding by the 1707 treaty of the union.

      That the English parliament let these provisions of the Scots into the making of the union slipped by them unnoticed ,as contrary to (their own articles of “binding forever after” ) displays more than a stupidity of politicians in a hurry but quite a few serious flaws in the treaty of union,
      However the English parliament excepted these conditions the Scottish parliament inserted , and agreed on them,

      Thus creating a loop hole for Scots not to be bound to the treaty of the union 17061707.
      Again we see no capitulation in Scots or promised consent forever afterwards.

    223. stuart mctavish says:

      @RepublicofScotland

      Good effort at positive messaging from Rowley – guess he’s banking on yes voters not noticing that putting the vow on the ballot as an alternative to the status quo is somewhat incompatible with the idea of it having been delivered in full though.

    224. James Che. says:

      Breeks.

      The treaty is not consensual as the Scots were not ask at the time by a deliberate decision not to put it to a vote in 1707. Because the Scots would more than like vote against it.
      Source UK parliament government site 2022.
      They were aware that a vote could and should have been put to the Scots to join the treaty of the union way back in 1707.

      That is not consensual.

      The whole of Scotland and Scots did not join the treaty of the union.
      The two parliaments joined,

    225. James Che. says:

      The irony of britain.

      Court of justice uk pulls funding from courts that helps those that cannot afford justice.
      Legal Aid and democracy will not be available to those that need it most in britain.

      Mean while all our finances that were in a reserve funds in the uk have been sent and funnelled to another country whom they claim needs justice and democracy.

    226. Breeks says:

      James Che. says:
      19 June, 2022 at 3:39 pm

      Breeks.

      The treaty is not consensual as the Scots were not ask at the time by a deliberate decision not to put it to a vote in 1707. Because the Scots would more than likely vote against it.

      True, no argument from me. But when Scotland can end the Union but doesn’t, then Westminster can, and does, claim with “some” justification that the Union is consensual.

      That is why Brexit SHOULD have been pivotal, because Scotland’s “presumed” acquiescence was actually a highly irregular refusal, which demolished the fallacy of the Union being consensual.

      But it’s extraordinarily difficult to win a constitutional game of chess when Sturgeon’s opening move is unconditional surrender.

    227. Republicofscotland says:

      In a week where the war criminal Tony Blair received a knighthood and the truth telling whistleblower Julian Assange takes a step closer to being extradited to the US for outstanding journalism.

      I came across this.

      Could the Federal government (US) be working with the Australian government to, dare I say it, free Assange

      https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/federal-government-lobbying-behind-the-scenes-for-assange-s-freedom-20220618-p5auq3.html

    228. sarah says:

      @ Republicofscotland at 6.25: thank you for posting the link re Julian Assange in the Sydney paper.

      Having read the article, eagerly, I think the Federal Government is the Australian government, not the US. I can’t imagine that the US government is working for Assange’s freedom.

    229. Saffron Robe says:

      Breeks says:

      “But it’s extraordinarily difficult to win a constitutional game of chess when Sturgeon’s opening move is unconditional surrender.”

      Good one, Breeks. I like it!

    230. James Che. says:

      Breeks.

      It is also difficult for Scots to end the treaty of the union without a Scottish parliament.

    231. James Che. says:

      When the Scots get together and open their very own parliament just by simply doing so.
      Then you hold authority to end the treaty of non consensual union.
      Because is carries the authority of Sovereignty behind it from the Scots under the claim of Right.

      A true Scots parliament is important if you want to end the treaty under that method,

      There are other methods of course, like enough people of refusing to recognise the devolved parliament under Scots law, as in of itself it impinges on Scots law.

      Until that first step is taken the rest is sawdust

    232. James Che. says:

      Another outlet is the discrepancy of dates on the treaty of the union.

      Legally the english parliament could not have ratified the SCOTTISH PARLIAMENTS decision to join the treaty of the union in 1606, as The Scottish parliament did not make that decision in Scotland until 1707.

      A legal tecnicality that is important to have unionised the calender between themselves and Scotland prior to plans and debates for a union.

      As it is the english parliament technically and perhaps legally look like they made a presumption of the Scottish parliament nearly a year in advance of any commitment from the Scottish parliament to an agreement.

      Legally Preemptive to the Scottish agreement in reality from Scottish parliament.

      Always read the small print in legal documents, make sure of signitures and matching dates.

    233. Republicofscotland says:

      Sarah :@7.15pm.

      Yip I think you’re right Sarah, as Homer Simpson would say DUH!!!

    234. Saffron Robe says:

      Ottomanboi says:

      “I think that is sufficient diverse cultural material for any nation.”

      That is a very nice comment, Ottomanboi. It reminds me of the Indian concept of sadhana (unity-in-diversity) which I have always thought is particularly applicable to Scotland and the Scots – “unity without uniformity and diversity without fragmentation”.

      Jawaharlal Nehru believed unity-in-diversity to be an ideal essential to national consolidation and progress. He wrote:

      “Though outwardly there was diversity and infinite variety among our people, everywhere there was that tremendous impress of oneness, which had held all of us together for ages past, whatever political fate or misfortune had befallen us.”

    235. sarah says:

      @ Republicofscotland at 8.32: It would have been nice but sadly… 🙂

    236. robertkknight says:

      @James Che.

      “As it is the english parliament technically and perhaps legally look like they made a presumption of the Scottish parliament nearly a year in advance of any commitment from the Scottish parliament to an agreement”

      Bought and sold…

      Scotland: “What sort of a Parliament do you think we are?”

      England: “I think we’ve established that – now we’re just haggling over the price”.

    237. Breeks says:

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20221124.secret-union-polling-appeal-granted-plea-issued-support-yes-movement%2F%23comments-anchor

      Am I missing something here?

      Seems more enthusiasm to pursue a secret poll on Independence than pursue Independence itself.

      For us or against us, who the fk cares what a poll said? How can the SNP be so out of touch with the bloody exasperation felt by increasing numbers in the YES Movement?

      SNP, will you please STOP FUCKING ABOUT.

    238. Robert Hughes says:

      Breeks

      This just looks like more distraction theatre – ” Look , we’re really doing something , oh BTW your paying for it ” . Aye , fannying about with meaningless gestures as per . Likewise this proposed Referendum next year : Consultative , great , that should waste a bit more time n take us up to ” oh it’s almost time for a UK G.E , hold the horses ” .

      I doubt they’ll STOP FUCKING ABOUT B . It’s all they know how to do

    239. Ottomanboi says:

      SAFFRON ROBE 8:49pm
      All about confidence, a confident people can handle sociocultural diversity as a normal phenomenon. Being a Scot is a kaleidoscope of possibilities, being British is one pattern fits all. Official «Scottishness» has been reconfected to conform to the accepted norms of the conceits of the dominant political dispensation: picturesque, quaint and «harmless» to the system it drains the lifeforce from the real thing.
      The curtain will fall on the British comedy when Scots rediscover the «real thing».

    240. Mark Boyle says:

      robertkknight says:
      20 June, 2022 at 8:02 am

      Scotland: “What sort of a Parliament do you think we are?”

      England: “I think we’ve established that – now we’re just haggling over the price”.

      Very George Bernard Shaw, old boy!

    241. wull says:

      In order to mark its discontinuity with the devolved parliament at the foot of the Royal Mile, and avoid confusion, should the new parliament of an (at last) independent Scotland relocate elsewhere?

      I would suggest either Stirling, or Perth or Inverness as reasonable alternatives.

      This would terminate any burgeoning ‘South-East’ problem in Scotland. Or, indeed, ‘Central Belt problem’ for that matter – at least if the alternative is Perth or Inverness.

      Inverness might be the best option, or even somewhere smaller, and still further north. The place where the parliament is located does not even have to be a city.

      A location that was pretty rural might even be beneficial all round… Why not?

      City-wise, the capital of the country can still be Edinburgh.

      The question would then arise as to what to do with the current parliamentary building. In a not-too-serious discussion of this recently, someone made a suggestion which might be of interest to some people:

      ‘Why not turn it into a sauna…?’

      To which the flippant retort came back: ‘That would do fine… You might not even have to apply to the Council for a ‘change of use’ certificate in order to do that…!’

      ‘But even that’, came another retort, ‘sounds too much like ‘business as usual’!’

      More seriously, look at the post-1707 confusion caused by using the former English Parliament building as the new UK parliament. Symbolically, that sent off what was legally an entirely false message, even if that falsehood was the message which England wished to send out, not only to us but to the whole world.

      Westminster/London, ‘the South-East/England’ has never ceased to send out that message since that time. And it has done so very successfully, propagating the lie that the England and the UK are synonyms for the same thing.

      Most people in Europe actually believe this lie. Sure, they generally warm to Scots more easily than to English people, so they know there is some kind of distinction. But don’t ask them to understand, far less explain, the political origins and ongoing political realities of that distinction. Regarding that, they generally have no clue. And with ‘ambassadors’ like our dear First Minister, no wonder!

      What we want in a new independent Scotland is a clean break from everything – absolutely everything – connected with the thoroughly discredited notion of ‘devolution’.

      We can now see, more than ever before, just how right the old SNP (of a few decades ago) actually got it when they opposed the whole notion of devolution.

      Devolution was always intended to be a trap for Scotland. Intentionally and deliberately so, on the part of its Labour, and some of its other, initial propagators. The whole idea was to put an end to Scottish nationalism and keep the Scottish nation trapped in the Westminster – a ship stuck in a bottle can’t go anywhere, except to the bottom of the sea. Especially if it’s stuffed full of (Westminster!) baggage.

      When the SNP compromised on the matter their intention was to use the devolved parliament for their own purposes. That is, as a mere stepping stone to get us off the wrong side of the river and firmly on to the dry land of independence, on the Scottish side.

      The stepping-stone would then have served its purpose. Once something has served its purpose, no one needs it any longer. Who would miss the devolved parliament stepping stone if the river then swelled up, and washed it away altogether?

      Having used it to step into freedom, who but a ‘-knave’ would want to use it again in order to step back into slavery?

      Come to think of it, hasn’t Auld Reekie got enough saunas already? Never mind a ‘change of use’… Why not just pull the whole thing down, once and for all?

      And start again, somewhere else.

      Further North, out of the Belt and more to the Centre.

      A new (but historic) parliament for a new (but ancient) country. Where, away from all that ‘in-between stuff, we will be able to breathe again, taking in some much cleaner and fresher air.

    242. Robert Hughes says:

      ” The curtain will fall on the British comedy when Scots rediscover the «real thing».”

      Indeed .

    243. James Che. says:

      Robertknight.

      Aye and Scots never voted any of them into the Scots parliament at that time, likewise it did not vote in the Scottish commissioners.
      No legal representation in any of dealings.
      As it is nowadays with a english branch office devolved government in Scotland.

    244. James Che. says:

      Wull.

      Excellent analogy of the devolved government.
      A ship in a bottle going nowhere.

    245. James Che. says:

      Wull.

      A real Scots parliament, Where should it be?

      My suggestion would to be to measure the length and breadth of Scotland, find the centre.
      That is where it should, accessible to all people in Scotland equally.

    246. Chas says:

      James Che

      Great idea. More hundreds of millions of pounds wasted. Do you EVER think?

    247. Mark Boyle says:

      Has anyone else saw this article on Iain’s blog?

      https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2022/06/18/a-teacher-and-parent-speaks-out/

      I’m amazed it has been up for a whole two days without Heather being fired, arrested, tried by secret court and burnt as a terfwitch (with the promise of a full pardon in 500 years times) by the completely unagendaed and trustworthy farces of law and order which are Quality Polis Scotland.

      Mind you, it was over the weekend, the day is young …

    248. James Che. says:

      If you are to go down the route that the treaty of union articles have been broken,

      Is Scots Law that was to be retained to Scotland as it existed at the time the union was sign.

      However in 1708 the British parliament bought in new Laws for the Whole of Britain regarding TREASON.

      Scots Law already existed and covered the act of Treason,

      The British parliament broke one of the Articles in the treaty of the union within a year of it being signed by abolishing our Scots Law.

    249. Robert Hughes says:

      Mark Boyle

      Yip , I have read it , and what an excellent article it is , from someone at the frontline of the lunacy . Yr right , it’s a surprise the LGBZZZzzz captured ” Quality Polis Scotland ” 🙂 haven’t sent an Armed Response Team in to arrest this * Hate Crime * spewing terrorist . As you say …… there’s time yet

    250. James Che. says:

      Chas.

      Scots are worth that don’t you think? having a parliament that is ( Scottish again) they can call their own, in the middle of Scotland closer to all Scots.

      The money wasted by both present governments in power far excels the price of our own parliament.

      Britain has just sent a billion in reserved funds of british money plus, of our tax payers money to a foriegn country that pays no contribution = nothing into Britain,

      If you want to view money wastage we can find plenty of parallels for you.
      I see boris’s bridge between Ireland and Scotland is shelved for now Although money was spent engineering posibilities.
      Ole Brit nic does the same finacial wastage in the branch office in Scotland.

      Yep in retrospect its worth Scots having a real parliament of their own.
      Obviously you disagree.

    251. Dorothy Devine says:

      Looks as though the P.M has gone for ‘the snip’ described as ‘routine surgery’ – I’m only guessing!

      Raab is now in charge – the man who didn’t realise we were not the centre of the world but a few measly wee islands which need sea links.

    252. Saffron Robe says:

      The pretenderendum, as Ruby aptly named it, is just another pointless exercise by the do-nothing meaningful party of government, which will no doubt waste hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of pounds more of public money. Yet another instance of the politics of delay and ineptitude. As I’ve mentioned before that ship has sailed and only a fool would still believe that a referendum is a viable route to independence, knowing what we know now since the last referendum. You cannot win when the dice are loaded against you. The words of Rabbie Burns, “Sic a parcel o rogues in a nation!” apply equally well to the current SNP/Green government. To paraphrase Upton Sinclair, “It is difficult to bring about independence, when your salary depends upon not bringing it about”.

      Ottomanboi at 8:57 am and Wull at 10:40 am:

      Really superb comments both. I agree with you, Wull, Holyrood should be closed down and a new parliament established outside the central belt. It is tainted beyond redemption.

    253. Republicofscotland says:

      A interesting and probably factually correct take.

      “The Westminster Doctrine is a principle of English Law. It has no application in Scots Law. The Claim of Right and the principles behind it form the correct position in Scots Law. The proposed referendum could be ruled illegal in English Law, but still be legal in Scots Law.”

      This would butt nicely with the above.

      “My understanding is that UK Supreme Court must interpret a Scottish case under Scots Law- because of these differences”

    254. Republicofscotland says:

      Re my above comment.

      1707 Treaty of Union.

      Article 19: Scotland will keep its own separate laws, legal system and courts of law.

    255. Republicofscotland says:

      Craig Murray writes.

      “A hard truth about the “Referendum”.
      I am perfectly certain the UK Supreme Court will choose the English doctrine of the Sovereignty of [Westminster] Parliament over the Scottish doctrine of the Claim of Right.
      In UK law terms, we need to take Independence “illegally”.”

      Any route to Scottish independence that doesn’t conform with the English parliament will be in the eyes of Westminster illegal, however it won’t be illegal in Scotland.

      So if we have a plebiscitary election it will be deemed illegal by the English parliament, if we hold a grand assembly and declare indy it will be again seen as illegal by a foreign country’s government, but none of these ways out of the union will be illegal in Scots law.

      https://twitter.com/CraigMurrayOrg/status/1538078612057882624

    256. Republicofscotland says:

      Re y 3.39pm comment.

      I don’t see Sturgeon going against Westminster and holding what English law deems as an illegal indyref.

    257. Merganser says:

      Wull @ 10.40
      A brilliant idea to relocate the new parliament away from Edinburgh. My suggestion is the castle on Loch Leven. A worthy historical site and just a short boat ride from the shore. No city distractions to take minds off the job. Politicians should not be too comfortable.

    258. James Che. says:

      Republicofscotland.

      The supreme court itself is contradictory to Scots Law to be retained in Scotland,
      Judgements under the supreme court would be deemed to break the treaty of the union,

      You can not take Scots law outside of Scotland.
      And you cannot over lie the treaty of the union article’s with uk legislation, introducing a new settlement for Scots Law.
      There can be no supreme court judgement passed in westminster over Scots Law at a much date than the treaty articles that were agreed to.

      This predisposition to presume the british supreme court is superior in Scotland to Scots Law would alter article 19 and break the treaty of the union,

      The supreme court would have jurisdiction else where in britain but not to over rule Scots law as set out in the treaty.

    259. twathater says:

      @ Breeks 8.33am , talk about taking people for fools , yet Tommy shepherd and the sturgeon fanzine EXPECT people to fall for their Lillian gish and flood the sturgeon nonce party with funds to legally oppose WM doing the EXACT same thing they the snp have been doing, BLOCKING LEGAL ADVICE

      Tommy says boo hoo that it isnay ferr that WM has unlimited funds to continuously block and oppose legal advice BUT poor Tommy has to produce the BEGGING BOWL to kid on him and the betrayer give a flying fuck about independence

      WEE word of advice for Tommy suck it up bud if you and the betrayer had done YOUR JOB you wouldn’t have to worry about legal advice or BEGGING for funds

      Another WEE word of advice for Tommy suck it up bud NOW you know what Martin Keatings and US felt when YOUR betrayer used HER PAWN to sabotage oor legal challenge

      Another WEE word of advice for Tommy, the sturgeon nonce party have a very bad reputation when it comes to using funds DONATED for one thing (RINGFENCED) being used for a totally UNRELATED thing or things , maybe people wouldn’t TRUST that the funds raised for the legal challenge possibly who knows as much as £600,000 wouldn’t be used for said legal challenge ,but instead maybe furniture or paying legal costs for twats

      Eh just so you know Tommy I ONLY donate to GENUINE Independence parties so don’t wait for my money

    260. Republicofscotland says:

      James Che @4.28pm.

      Unfortunately James Boris Johnson isn’t a stand up type of guy, as Craig Murray says the English Supreme court will come down on the side of union, which means that our Scots law and sovereign rights will take a back seat.

      An S30 aside the English parliament will look upon any other route out of this union as illegal, even if its not illegal under Scots law. Why then hold a consultative indyref as Sturgeon is planning on doing knowing fine well it won’t lead anywhere without Johnson’s consent, and I say that because Sturgeon ha said she isn’t willing to go down another route.

      The language from the Westminster parliament and the House Jocks at Holyrood is very revealing, any other route other than the S30 route is classed as a wildcat referendum, but under Scots law it would not be a wildcat referendum it would be perfectly normal and that’s heart of the matter, a referendum in Scotland for Scots held by Scots without any Westminster input and observed by the UN and the international community.

      Barring this a UDI declaration that bypasses English law, I don’t trust Sturgeon to hold a proper and prepared indyref next October, a botched half-arsed one where yes loses is more her style going by her current record in office.

    261. James Che. says:

      And if i may continue on this vein,

      Any legislation, laws or statue’s passed by the devolved government over Scotland since its beginning cannot be deemed Scottish laws.

      As the devolved government in Scotland is not Scottish, nor Sovereign in its capacity. It existence relies on the Barnett formula,
      And matters reserved to the uk parliament.
      It has been a web woven to deceive.

      As to wether EnglandS Westminster British parliament or concoction of a supreme court could rule differently to Scotland could be interpreted as breaking the treaty of the union.

      Due the the old English parliament and the later British parliament writing the “Scots claim of Right ” into the treaty.
      And much later into the wording of the devolved government and later still acknowledged on July 2018 in Uk parliament that is wrote into Hansard.
      It is in the clauses and articles of an international treaty.

      They would have great difficulty in legally pretending or denying they the british parliament had not accepted or recognised the Scots “claim of right ” as inclusive in the treaty of the union.

      They would have great difficulty in any court , as they wrote it up and ratified it in the old English Parliament, plus the British parliament,

      The Scots claim of right has been acknowledged since 1706/07 by England no matter which parliament was then running England or Britain.

      So it begs the question, as the treaty, is a union of two parliaments, and the English parliament accepted the Scottish terms, that the then english parliament ratified and proceeded to take into a british parliament still accepting the ” Scots claim of right” that has continued to be acknowledged by the british parliament and the crown for over 300years,

      It is part of Scots law, which the english parliament agreed would remain in Scotland.

    262. James Che. says:

      So according to the treaty of the union articles and the UK parliaments wording in the creation of a devolved government in Scotland, the July 2018 acceptence in the houses of the UK parliament
      UK parliament already legally recognises the the “Claim of right ” that Scots have to choose whom governs them.

      In their accepting the ” Claim of right” for the Scots the UK parliament also accept and must recognise there are no stipulations laid down in the treaty as to how the Scots go about this,.

      The English Parliament in 1706 did not tack on any clause on to the Scottish Claim of Right in the treaty.
      Nor were there any clauses tacked onto it during devolution process.
      It stands in Scots law and in [ english and UK law ] under the treaty of the union 1706 and 1707.

    263. John Main says:

      @James Che. says:20 June, 2022 at 12:22 pm

      “My suggestion would to be to measure the length and breadth of Scotland, find the centre.
      That is where it should, accessible to all people in Scotland equally”

      Why is that important? Who plans to go there? Those that do, maybes they would like it to be close to roads, railway stations, even airports. Not stuck in the middle of nowhere. Although stuck in the middle of nowhere and accessible to only those with paid mileage and limos on tap would no doubt suit our ruling SNP to a tee. No awkward protests within 20 miles.

      Here’s a better idea. Why not plot the population density of Scotland on a map, find the centre of that population density plot (the spot in Scotland that has more Scots close to it than any other) and put the parliament there. That way, it will be the closest possible to the largest number of Scots.

      Certainly in the Central Belt, probably in Glasgow. But so what? That’s the reality of where most of us Scots are.

    264. Republicofscotland says:

      This is what we’re dealing with, as Westminster via its staging post in Edinburgh Queen Elizabeth House undermines our Scottish parliament.

      We desperately need to be rid of this union before Westminster interference deeper in devolved matters and turns Holyrood into nothing more than a talking shop. Time isn’t on our side as some may think.

      “THE Scottish Secretary has told SNP MP Deidre Brock to “suck it up and go with the programme” as she expressed concerns over Westminster bypassing the devolution settlement.

      The MP for Edinburgh North and Leith raised fears about the funding of projects in her constituency which bypassed conversations with the Scottish Government.

      Specifically, Brock asked about who was responsible for the Levelling Up Fund which aims to invest in infrastructure across the UK.

      She asked about the number of staff working on the project in Queen Elizabeth House in Edinburgh compared to people working in London.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20223362.alister-jack-tells-snp-mp-suck-up-uk-bypasses-scottish-parliament%2F

    265. Republicofscotland says:

      Scotland is falling apart at the seams, from train strikes to bin men strikes, to dentists going private due to NHS underfunding by the Scottish government, lawyers dropping cases due to a lack of legal aid, pot holes everywhere, difficulty getting into A&E or a doctors appointment, shops closing down at an alarming rate, ferries that don’t run or a years late and millions over budget, Brexit kicking in and a cost of living crises too boot, and where is our beloved FM? ah yes.

      She’s at a gender equality summit in Italy for two days, which is funded by the Rockefeller Foundation, she’s supposedly standing up for women’s rights, y’know the rights that she’s undermining back home in Scotland.

      Sturgeon’s ego is gigantic.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20222101.nicola-sturgeon-attends-two-day-gender-equality-summit-bellagio-italy%2F

    266. Republicofscotland says:

      “SNP MP Amy Callaghan has apologised after she was featured in a leaked audio recording calling on her colleagues to rally around Patrick Grady after his suspension.

      Glasgow North MP Grady was found to have made an “unwanted sexual advance” towards a member of staff, who was then a teenager, in 2016.”

      Callaghan is the SNP MP who was off with a brain haemorrhage, the recording was released to the Daily Mail.

      One wonders if the SNP MP group has one or several MI5 MPs within its ranks ready to cripple and expose SNP MPs misdoings, on top of this its hard to have sympathy for a bunch of troughing, self serving, spineless and gutless b*stards who’ve done nothing to further the indy cause.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20223107.amy-callaghan-issues-statement-featured-leaked-ian-blackford-audio%2F

    267. Republicofscotland says:

      Certainly worth attending if you can make it, though I’d skip listening to the SNPs Sinophobe/Russophobe Westminster puppet Alyn Smith who will unfortunately speak at the event.

      I doubt we’ll see Sturgeon in attendance she doesn’t do indy marches.

      “SCOTTISH independence supporters will rally in commemoration of the Battle of Bannockburn this Saturday for the first All Under One Banner march since the Scottish Government announced plans for a second referendum.

      On 25 June, activists will assemble at the Auld Stirling Bridge and proceed to Bannockburn Field for a demonstration in support of Scotland’s right to decide the question of independence.

      In 1314, the Battle of Bannockburn saw the army of Robert the Bruce emerge victorious over the forces of King Edward II in the First War of Scottish Independence.

      A statement on the All Under One Banner Facebook page explained the significance of holding the march to coincide with the Battle of Bannockburn’s anniversary, saying: “The victory at Bannockburn resonates through time; that Scotland is a sovereign Nation, and the people of Scotland have the inalienable right of self determination. Bannockburn demonstrated what can be achieved if we unite and stand together, and take decisive action.”

      The statement calls upon First Minister Nicola Sturgeon to “use the mandates” and legislate for a second independence referendum, adding: “It’s Our Right to Decide.””

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20223469.its-right-decide-auob-rally-bannockburn%2F

    268. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Republicofscotland (6.45) –

      If it is true that Alyn Smith will be speaking at the Bannockburn rally, the reaction of the crowd may well give him reason to raise both of his eyebrows simultaneously.

    269. stuart mctavish says:

      @Republic of Scotland

      Suspect it is you, @3:33, that’s correct on this one since, unlike cases related to (even Brexit) legislation, Supreme Court can have no standing in any event:-

      ie, setting aside the Murray precedent (where it failed to right a manifestly wrongful judgement in common law (presumably) because leave to appeal had been denied) it would be obliged to decline adjudicating on constitutional matters EVEN IF ASKED BY A SCOTTISH COURT simply because not doing so would necessarily trigger the end of either the union (breach of treaty) or the supreme court itself (premeditated judicial overreach leading to potential high treason*)!

      Worst case for either side, an appeal could still be made to the Duke of Rothesay – but even he would need to recuse himself from disputes arising were subsequent referendums brought, eg on behalf of the royal sisterhood, to impeach the current succession to the Crown in favour of Maggie Queen of Scots 😉

      *treason felony in question being forcing the change of counsels (ie from Scots to English Law) and intimidating (either) parliament

    270. Ottomanboi says:

      FROM THE NATIONAL
      NICOLA STURGEON will be in Italy on Monday at two-day summit dedicated to driving gender equality, protecting women’s rights, and tackling climate change.
      The First Minister has been invited to Bellagio to the Global Women Leader’s Summit, hosted by The Rockefeller Foundation and the Georgetown Institute for Women and Peace.
      The event began in 2017, when Pat Mitchell and Ronda Carnegie, co-founders of TEDWomen, brought together a diverse range of female leaders from around the world to The Rockefeller Foundation’s Bellagio Center with the purpose of developing a women leaders’ perspective on global priorities.

      SOME LINKS TO ROCKEFELLER FOUNDATION HISTORY.
      https://www.jpost.com/Blogs/The-Jewish-Problem—From-anti-Judaism-to-anti-Semitism/Foundations-of-Holocaust-American-eugenics-and-the-Nazi-connection-364998

      https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2016/jan/15/bill-gates-rockefeller-influence-agenda-poor-nations-big-pharma-gm-hunger

    271. John Main says:

      And there was me thinking it was the attempt to link the 2014 Indy Ref to Bannockburn that fucked it up the last time.

      1314 – 2014. 700 years. But sometimes even we Scots have to move on.

      There’s even an acronym for it. LITP – Living In The Past.

    272. Tinto Chiel says:

      Surely Blair’s pretendy Supreme Court sitting in judgment on Scottish justice is in itself a clear breach of the Treaty of Union? Och, well, what’s another one between friends? Yes, I know the HoL has been intervening in Scottish civil cases since the 19th c. as a court of appeal but that doesn’t make it right either.

      My former lawyer would probably class my comments as being of the “pub lawyer” type but that was his usual get-out for any sensible objection to his milquetoast stratagems.

      *Smiles ruefully*

      @Ian Brotherhood 7.05: could this potential two-eyebrows-raised thingy perhaps presage a momentous event, like the SG actually standing up for Scotland instead of its normally futile political fan-dancing, or the San Andreas fault starting to shoogle?

      Sorry, got ahead of myself there. Have thrashed myself with birch twigs.

      No worries.

      Carry on.

    273. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Tinto Chiel –

      ‘Carry On’ is apt – Smith would’ve fitted right into one of the dodgier films, with Hanna-Barbera sound effects as he glances around for the nearest mirror, making saucy faces and toe-curling speeches.

    274. Robert Graham says:

      The Unionist media ! , Last time I looked it was all of them anyway since the look warm reception to the announcement of indyref2 the usual suspects are rolling out the same pish as the last time, Aye fear is the tried and trusted method of the English establishment it’s worked for hundreds of years so why not use it again.

      Their agents have setup camp here Main , Ellis and the other two arsewipes who I can’t be arsed naming are and have been intent in disrupting any attempt to convince people another way is possible ,

      I don’t have any other choice but to back sturgeon and vote for a free Scotland despite her being seduced by the dark side I suspect a trap for some reason because sturgeon is involved but as Alex said he’s willing to give her the benefit of the doubt , so it’s grit your teeth and bite your tongue time, like it or not it’s the only game in town right now because ALBA ain’t up to it just now .

      As for the plants here my usual sentiments FK off arsewipes .you have a nice day now.

    275. Effigy says:

      Interesting snippet on LBC Radio.
      The same journalist who exposed Boris plan to give his bit on the side, Carrie, a £100,000 job
      Revealed that Carrie had her Elitist Wings clipped by a lady who ran Checkers, the PM country retreat.

      The lady was dispatched on Carries orders and then 3 additional members of staff had to be hired on Carries demand.

      Yes we are all in it together.
      More cuts for workers, the unemployed and the disabled and additional servants for a woman
      happy to have sex in Boris’s office while his still married wife battled cancer.

      What a lovely pair they make!

    276. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Robert Graham 10.55 pm

      “Their agents have setup camp here Main , Ellis and the other two arsewipes who I can’t be arsed naming are and have been intent in disrupting any attempt to convince people another way is possible”

      For the benefit of the hard of thinking moonhowler fraternity who appear to have set up camp BTL in here and assume they somehow own the space, or even more laughably that they represent more than a tiny percentage of the independence movement, it’s worth re-iterating that attempts to “other” people who disagree with your woo-woo views as unionists plants. or Sturgeonistas, or not “real” nationalists, is the type of same tactic used by British nationalists and Project Fear during indyref1 against cybernats.

      Those pointing out that there are issues with the proposed alternative routes to independence aren’t the enemy: we’re the ones representing the mainstream view of the movement. It’s incumbent on hose proposing novel routes that bypass either a referendum or plebiscitary elections to show us how it will work and explain who is organising it, who will get to decide and who is paying for it. None of that is unreasonable, nor is it rocket science. Pious hopes and references to popular sovereignty, the Treaties of Union and Claim of Right are all very well, but where’s the beef?

      Show us the back up for these cunning plans from recognised experts, from legal and constitutional authorities in academia, international organisations and government. Where are the peer reviewed papers, articles, conferences discussing how these novel routes will be organised, executed and accepted leading to independence? So far you’re coming up empty. Greeting about it in here isn’t helping, nor is airy assertion by mono maniacs and cranks like James Che or Scott based on their amateur hour reading of subjects they clearly don’t understand and have no background in.

      Nicola’s Pretenderendum may well fall flat, even if it happens at all: the plausible alternative to it isn’t some half baked cunning plan to hold a National Assembly (consisting of who? decided on by who? resourced how? demonstrating majority support in what way? in what timescale?) it’s ensuring that pro-independence parties commit to EVERY election being plebiscitary. No other scheme is going to come up with magic results before Holyrood 2026, however hard those prone to woo-woo wish for it.

    277. John Main says:

      @Robert Graham says:20 June, 2022 at 10:55 pm

      That meandering, self-pitying, post of yours makes good progress in “disrupting any attempt to convince people another way is possible”.

      Just thought I would point that out to you, Bob, really you should thank me.

      See all those Scots who voted No in 2014? They’re going to vote No again in 2023 or whenever, unless you can convince them to change their minds. So why don’t you make a start by posting positive, persuasive, credible claims for why these voters will be better off post-Indy?

      Just remember, Bob, you don’t have persuade yourself. You don’t even have to persuade me. I will make up my own mind. But you have to persuade the undecided readers who come here looking for reasons to vote Yes.

      Like many of the posts on here, all your “we’re already doomed”, constantly negative effort is doing is adding to the No vote.

    278. Willie says:

      The suggestion that Alyn Smith is going to address the Banockburn Rally is as analogous as Boris Johnson speaking at the rally.

      Or is Smith trying to turn it into a Section 30 rally. Wouldn’t surprise me.

    279. Andy Ellis says:

      @John Main 8.02 am

      “Like many of the posts on here, all your “we’re already doomed”, constantly negative effort is doing is adding to the No vote.”

      Well said! It’s passing strange isn’t it that so many of the usual suspects in here heap abuse on those who disagree with them, but fail to come up with any kind of reasoned argument when challenged on their hobby horse issues.

      We saw it in the discussion of nativism and franchise restriction: a year on from Rev Stu’s fisking of their regressive, immoral and politically self defeating position, nary a one has presented any cogent response to his original critique. On that issue, they say Stu is wrong, and it’s just his opinion. Fair enough…but it’s also the mainstream view endorsed by the overwhelming majority in the movement. All you get for pointing that out is inchoate screeching, abuse and allegations of being a unionist plant. Interestingly, Rev Stu isn’t subjected to the same treatment. Can we guess why that is alert readers?

      Similarly, Rev Stu asked for detail a few threads back on how “cunning plans for indy” which bypassed referendums or plebiscitary elections would work. Again, tumbleweed from the proponents of National Assembly/UDI magical thinking. Again, attacks on anyone – other than Stu – who raises the same issue.

      Of course, it’s OK for them to pollute the BTL discourse and try to hi-jack Scotland’s most popular pro-independence site to support their fringe nutter conspiracy theorising, but it’s not OK for anyone (other than Rev Stu of course!) to challenge their evidence free ramblings.

      One might almost think that was because they didn’t really have any evidence, huh? 🙂

    280. John Main says:

      Andy Ellis

      I don’t make any apologies for repeating that Scottish Indy is essentially a simple process.

      Show Scots how we will be better off when Independent.

      Ergo, a majority votes for it.

      Job done.

      Nothing stopping those who are still exercised about 1314, 1707 or the ’45 posting informative articles about these irrelevant ancient historical events, but there are no Scots alive who have had the thatch burnt over their heids by the Redcoats.

      So, if we want Indy, we need to make the case in people’s wallets and pockets, in terms relevant to 2022 and beyond.

      60-70 weeks until IndyRef2. Maybes somebody could help out Rev Stu with a short weekly post: “Scots will be better off with Indy because …”. If it has credible evidence behind it, undecided voters will want to read it and their appetite for more will be whetted.

      Hence, they will be back here, week after week.

    281. Dan says:

      Be grand if Jim Fairlie rocked up to Bannockburn this weekend to discuss his previously suggested strategy with “Brows” Smith.

      As a taster to the proposed bout, here’s one of Jim’s three articles in the National from a couple of years ago. (don’t be mislead by “1 hour ago” as that was when the screenshot was archived).

      https://archive.ph/BlR25#selection-1168.0-1168.1

      Hey Andy, fancy joining us YES Bikers for a cruise to the AUOB event this weekend or would there be just too many folk holding their own unique views for you to cope with.
      Could be an ideal time for you to preach to a larger less moonhowling audience brother…

    282. Andy Ellis says:

      @Dan 8.53 am

      You think an AUOB march has a larger reach or audience than WoS then Dan? Ah hae ma doots! There was a time when I thought there were some sound folks in here that it’d be good to meet up with: now….? Not so much.

      As Mr Main observed above I’ve no issue at all with folk believing what they want and proselytising for it wherever they can, even if I find their views outlandish, ridiculous or even offensive. Nobody is stopping them doing it, or trying to censor them. Indeed I’d rather see the real fringe nutters views exposed and laughed at than driven underground to fester in the dark.

      You do you. Have a great time doing your think with Yes bikers and AUOB. I’ll probably stick with Alba and hoping it can reach escape velocity and have some impact in coming years. In the meantime I’m quite happy to carry on pointing and laughing at moonhowlers in here and ensuring they don’t put too many undecideds off with their conspiracy theories, regressive nationalism and othering anyone who dares to question their woo woo.

    283. Ottomanboi says:

      JOHN MAIN 08:43.
      If it is simply a question of «Scots will be better off with independence» forget it, the argument for retaining current order will always have the upper hand in the propaganda mill.
      Reducing the restoration of Scotland’s autonomy to a matter of «bawbees», value for money, ultimately the best option for those with the money is the very thing that got Scotland into the union with England.
      Scottish independence ought to be more than a question of practical utility, being «better off» is quite banal and might equally apply to many regions of England. London might be better off without the burden of the Scotland, an argument often aired in the sections of Unionist press. Ultimately, all a performance of postures signifying intellectual burn out.
      Scotland is either existentially, manifestly a different entity from England or it is not. Being the former is quite enough.

    284. Dan says:

      @ Andy

      Well, just a few weeks ago you again reiterated that this place was dying on its arse and Stu should shut it down because it had limited reach. Yet Stu’s recent article proved you were wrong as Wings still had higher views than other pro-indy sites.

      The thing about AUOB events is they probably represent and have a wider spectrum of Indy views than just Wings’ readership, so it’s well worth listening to and engaging with folk at these events as they tend to be fairly active in the wider YES movement.
      Obviously covid kyboshed a lot of activity but prior to that a great deal of local YES groups from all over Scotland put on and filled buses full of folk so they could attend the AUOB marches. I’ll add that folk that were motivated to turn up to these sort of events are often the ones most motivated in other real world campaigning endevours, and not just keyboard warrior types posting btl on here everyday…

    285. Chas says:

      Andy Ellis

      Do you ever feel that you are banging your head against a brick wall?
      I have got to admire your stamina.

      I have almost given up trying to make the well meaning, but ultimately simple minded, who pollute these threads, see some practical way forward in the quest for Independence. Unfortunately, too many are caught up in a time warp from hundreds of years ago. Realism is not something the Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade are endowed with. Much better to put the back of your hand against your fore head and wail ‘Woe is me, Woe is me. Everything is so unfair!. It is almost like a kind of masochism!

      As John Main says and I have said umpteen times before, provide some credible evidence that the individuals in an Independent Scotland would be better off and people will flock to the cause in droves.

      I await the abuse telling me that I am a closet Unionist.

    286. Daisy Walker says:

      Morning Dan, glad to hear your going to Bannockburn. I was thinking of attending on my wee bike (she’s the right colour after all), my first time as a Yes Biker.

      Hope your well.

      In other news… re Nicla in Italy… I bet she doesn’t use the opportunity in any way to make the International community aware that Indy Ref 2 is on… no ifs/no buts.

      I’d also bet that it is a forerunner to her getting that UN job, and Booby stepping up to replace her.

    287. Republicofscotland says:

      Y’know I can’t think of another parliament in the world where some of its political parties actively works against the countries best interests, yet this is the set up in Scotland, why do we put up with it.

      How can we possibly expect Scotland to flourish and grow its economy when these parties prioritise another nation over our own, it just isn’t possible, until Scotland becomes an independent nation these parties will continue to vote against any policy that conflicts with our larger neighbouring country.

      Sturgeon and the SNP haven’t helped the situation any by dangling indy carrots for years whilst putting their own interests first, and not supporting Salmond’s SNP 1 and Alba 2 at the last Scottish parliamentary elections that saw many unionist MPs allowed back in due to her snubbing of the plan, again millions of SNP List votes were wasted, when could’ve reduced the unionist MSPs to a rump, that in itself is unforgivable.

      This die-hard unionist loves to free dive under the new Forth Road Bridge (Queensferry Crossing) that he was never done putting down in the Holyrood chamber, even though under Salmond’s tenure it came in under budget and on time unlike Sturgeon’s ferries fiasco that are years late and million over budget with vital paper work “mislplaced”.

      Cole-Hamilton is now focusing on the next GE to try and unseat a SNP MP.

      “THE LibDems have revealed their candidate for the most marginal Westminster seat in Scotland at a bizarre launch event – prioritising fighting the next General Election over indyref2.

      Recently re-elected East Dunbartonshire councillor Susan Murray will contest the seat for the LibDems in the May 2024 poll against the SNP’s Amy Callaghan – which is almost two years away.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20223581.libdems-pick-first-mp-candidate-prioritising-general-election-indyref2%2F

    288. Breastplate says:

      John Main,
      I agree wholeheartedly with Ottomanboi, that we can or want to distill independence of Scotland or any other country for that matter down to how greedy some people are is vulgar in the extreme.

      I understand that is what motivates many people but how much of a difference are we talking, give or take, £10 a year, £100 a year, £1000 a year, more?

      Should Scotland be an independent country?

      That was the question that was asked at our referendum, there were no caveats added to that question, there was no asking should Scotland be an independent country if you it meant you were £100 better off?
      That is an abstract question and is completely subjective on one’s emotional attachment to the Union and/or how gullible one is to believe whatever the media tells them.

      How one perceives the question cuts to the argument of what Ellis calls the “franchise restriction”.
      There is a franchise restriction at every single election and every single referendum ever held and the same will apply in the future.

      In essence the people that should vote on Scotland’s future are the people who care about Scotland’s future.
      Of course there is a difference of opinion of who these people are and a line drawn anywhere is going to upset many of the people who are on the other side of it, it is inevitable.

      Anybody that feels they should answer a constitutional question depending on a few pounds more or less in their pocket, don’t have enough integrity to answer that question.

      Aside from the future being unknown, logic and reason will determine that a country making decisions for itself, will make better decisions because those decisions are inherently based on what is good for you including financial decisions.
      Yes, there will be start up costs but theses are investments and yes, not all decisions will be good decisions but they will be honest mistakes and corrected.

      Another country will not prioritise Scotland’s well-being, it is incapable of doing so, especially if that other country is a parasite.

      Should Scotland be an independent country?

      There is only one correct answer to that and you shouldn’t need to check your wallet or purse for the answer.

    289. Dorothy Devine says:

      Breastplate , love that last sentence .

      Ottomanboi , you are correct

    290. Dorothy Devine says:

      Dan and Daisy , make the thunder! Enjoy the march , can’t be there but look forward to seeing the videos.

    291. Andy Ellis says:

      @Dan 9.38 am

      My comment was more directed at the relatively low quantity and indeed quality of interactions in comparison with the site “in its pomp”, when it had daily articles and several hundred responses to each. That usually served to dilute if not drown out both the moonhowlers and the just plain irritating like the late, unlamented Cameron Brodie, or his modern equivalent gregor. It also made mono-maniacs like James Che, Scott and their ilk less prominent.

      It seems an unexceptional observation to make. If the site was (is?) being wound down, I think it’s a shame for its legacy to be the basket of fringe nutters and deplorables who all too frequently disgrace the BTL comments. I and some others don’t think they are representative of the movement, nor are they a good advert or recruiting ground to convert undecideds. You’re free to disagree of course.

      As for the rest of your post, well…AUOB marches still represent a tiny fraction of the movement. You may be right that they represent a broader cross section of the movement than WoS, but both are groups which represent the already convinced, and in both cases in general those who are strong supporters not “mebbes aye, mebbes naw” types. Unless of course your’re on board with the moonhowlers who insist that anyone disagreeing with them is a closet unionist, Sturgeonite, 77th Brigade etc. Feel free to call them and their behaviour out by the way!

      You and others often make the sniping comment that keyboard warriors don’t convert people, and take the moral high ground for being “real” campaigners. Good for you. It’s the same as the types who deprecate the opinions or contributions of others because they’ve canvassed and leafleted “for the cause”, so somehow we’re supposed to prioritise their views over those of others or accept they are more virtuous or a greater ornament or use to the movement?

      Aye, right! What percentage of the total electorate do you think attend AUOB marches Dan, or actively campaign or canvass for political parties, or contribute online? Who are you or others to decide who adds most value?

      It’s be great if we got La Diada sized turnouts for pro indy marches and mass turnouts for those parties pushing for the earliest possible date for independence, but we’ve just had an election where despite the SNPs problems and loss of large numbers of activists, they still predominated.

      Like I said, you do you. Enjoy the AUOB marches and your sense of superiority. See how many folk it converts to the cause.

    292. James Che. says:

      He does not wish to be Scottish as he thinks they are simple, knuckle draggers, moon howlers and are not up to the his standard, of becoming the majority like him,
      Follow his leadership ideas on how to do Scottish independence
      From what?
      He does not believe in going back to talk about that old treaty of the union rubbish,

      So What is he trying to free Scotland from, if not that time warp treaty of the union?

      He does not think he is one and the same as us here on Stu’s site.
      And he does not think the quality of Scottish independence supporters at Bannock Burn worth meeting up with.

      But he protests to loudly when he argues he wants to join us not on the marches, not at Bannock Burn, nor on here ,
      but to he wants to join us an be accepted as a Scottish voter,

      The majority of Scots here and at the marches are not abusing you at all, as you say the Scots are too simple to do that , just taken you’ re own comments, and repeated them.

    293. Andy Ellis says:

      @Chas 9.46 am

      “Do you ever feel that you are banging your head against a brick wall?”

      Definitely. It’s a sair fecht right enough, but somebody’s got to do it. 🙂

      I tend to agree with John Main that the case to be made to convince the requisite number of currently undecided voters is largely an economic one. The already convinced, or those who would vote for independence even if it was proven to make them poorer, aren’t the issue.

      Alex Salmond observed before indyref1 that if you couched the question of what things should be decided by Scots in Scotland, it became easier to convince people that what was actually needed to achieve the kind of society they desired wasn’t the current devolutionary settlement, or full fiscal autonomy, or Home Rule, but full-fat independence with all the levers of power under control of the Scottish people.

      The current devolutionists in the SNP will never deliver that, not will their plan for a consultative, pretendy referendum in 2023 because they haven’t had the political balls to go to court to test the legality of a non-S30 sanctioned referendum at any point over the past 8 years. Brexit and the current economic crisis, and more particularly the current Tory government’s handling of both, ought to make the task of convincing people easier not harder.

      I don’t really buy the argument that uncertainty will make people more cautious: any independence movement worth its name ought to be able to make the case that the cost benefit analysis of the two alternatives of staying part of Broken Britain, or becoming an independent republic is decidedly in favour of the latter.

    294. James Che. says:

      Breastplate.

      Aye its far more than just the arguments of the pocket,

      An independent country tends to think of its people, and the people respect the leaders for doing so.

      Many a rough road, leads to a place of Beauty.

    295. Andy Ellis says:

      @James Che 11.25 am

      Who appointed you spokesperson for people on Stu’s site James? Perhaps some do agree with you, but many don’t. Even a nasty piece of work like Scott finds your endless contributions on 300 year old treaties of no value.

      You’re right I don’t think I’m the same as *some* of the individuals on this site. I made no comment about the quality of people meeting up at Bannockburn, you simply made that up: I responded to Dan’s comment pointing out that there were a number of people in here that I used to interact with happily that I’d happily cross the road to avoid now given what I know about their worldview and the way they’ve behaved in here.

      I don’t want to “join you” as you put it. I don’t need your acceptance as a Scottish voter James. Thankfully the majority here and elsewhere don’t share your mono mania, nor do they have much in common with the moonhowlers in here, however fondly they believe they represent the majority in here, still less in the movement as a whole.

      You’re right, the majority of Scots aren’t abusing me, because they broadly agree with me: it’s a handful of nasty pieces of work in here in general who are a stain on the movement and on the legacy of this place that are the issue. I don’t think they are at all representative of the majority thankfully.

    296. Dorothy Devine says:

      Aye James , one wonders why those who consider folk beneath them bother to pollute the site. However , I am an adept scroller and don’t read the interminable spiels.

      I do wish folk would take the Revs advice and not respond but hey it seems that some folk just can’t resist.

    297. Robert Graham says:

      Ellis Prick

      Main Prick

      Chas Prick

      Anyone care to add to the growing list of useless parasites who have been attracted to this site

      All together now fk off dickheads you were rumbled long ago

    298. Ottomanboi says:

      The discovery of oil in S.Arabia, Iraq, Algeria, Iran, Nigeria has resulted in these areas experiencing high polution levels, an economic dependency on a finite product, discouraged self-sufficient innovation, enriched rulers, promoted clientism and societal divisions, created a significant «underclass» of urbanised former agricultural workers, eroded signs of meaningful democracy and increased foreign meddling or influences beyond that known even in the imperialist age.
      In this matter Norway is an exception, a lucky exception which does not invalidate the rule that oil is filthy stuff in every sense.
      It was never a sound argument for the restoration of Scotland’s independent as time has confirmed. Something with real «guts» is required.

    299. James Che. says:

      Dorothy Divine.

      Occassionally it is an easy target and sticks out like a sore thumb glowing in the dark.

      But yes most, of the time it is very easy to bypass, and not habitual.

    300. Mark Boyle says:

      21 June, 2022 at 12:23 pm

      Ellis Prick

      Main Prick

      Chas Prick

      Anyone care to add to the growing list of useless parasites who have been attracted to this site

      All together now fk off dickheads you were rumbled long ago

      There’s days when one’s patience on WoS wears thin, and this is one of them.

      It’s a given that whenever you have people seeing conspiracies and alias to every opposition to their world view that they’re one of those sad fk life losers running up multiple alias on a website to give themselves “haunners” so they can be seen to “win” arguments, like mini-Donald Trumps who think the more bloviating and strutting they do the more “correct” they are.

      Their dribblings tend to be filled with “you were rumbled”, “we see you”, etc. to mask that it is really just their insignificant selves. The ISP lot was almost insufferable with this idiocy last year when they were trying to make themselves out into being a bigger deal than reality and numbers proved, the end result predictable.

      As least they were trying to do it with a tangible and significant real world purpose in mind, unlike the harebrained on here making the same novel length posts with the same old style and typos – some similar to certain failures who tried to take the “career” blogger path and thought they could do so by stealing some of Stu’s limelight.

      They don’t give a shit that every time they do so, it’s the credibility of this website – and thus in turn the veracity of this website’s articles – they are damaging, no matter how much Stu boasts about being “the biggest read Scottish independent website” – yeah well so what if it appears from the comments section all you’re attracting is the tinhat fringe. Ever heard of “a man is known by the company he keeps”? Sturgeon certainly knows, why do you think she did so much to destroy Salmond’s reputation? Consider THAT, Stu, when you wonder in exasperation aloud why your “message” never seems to get through to the population at large.

      Back in the earlier days of the net, I helped moderate a gaming forum where we had probs with people coming in to cause trouble (usually sour grapes over some lost team match on GameSpy), or rival “clans” trying to disrupt the site of a competitor. Back then you could ban people using not merely their IP address (in those days more difficult to change) but also their MAC address, which back then was near impossible to change, and even if you could would cause so much problems with your network provider that it wasn’t work the candle (now the situation is reversed, and having someone’s MAC address is worth zero).

      But anyway, the point is you really lost faith in the human race in the number of times you put in a block for a certain MAC address, and all of a sudden five to ten other registered users, all with different email accounts and last known IP addresses, were instantly permabanned.

      The internet is a wonderful tool – just a pity people (often those old enough to know better) choose to use it in order to act like complete tools …

    301. Robert Hughes says:

      Ottomanboi @ 9.38

      * applause * ( likewise for Breastplate )

      Pretty dire situation when someone from a different ethnic background has a deeper sense of what Independence is about than – some – natives .

      Correct Breastplate . Is ( maybe ) being a few quid better off the most important reason to support Independence for your country ?

      Maybe the slogan for * next year’s * – kinda – Ref should be ….

      VOTE YES FOR AN EXTRA TENNER A WEEK ( to spend on shite )

      That should rally the troops eh ?

    302. James Che. says:

      Ottomanboi.

      Good post.

      However any resource meets the same criteria,
      Wether it is gold, lithium for batteries, tin, crops, land, fish, housing, energy control. Water, or forestry.

      If it is a resource that can be traded for money by those in governments around the world, they will go as far as invasion into another country, to instil regime change. For profiteering.

      When Scotland has no minerals or food resources left and has become but one giant safari park holiday place for foreign visitors

      The one ” Scot” left will be told he can have his independence if he so wishes, but not in his own country as the land has been bought and now belongs to foreign investors for tax evasion. And national parks.
      First it was sheep……..

      Cynical yes, but that has been the history of Scotland so far.

    303. James Che. says:

      The rev stu has been trying to teach us to think for ourselves and not take everything at face value.
      He has been pointing out discrepancies for long enough.

      We are beginning to think and suggest alternatives,
      As is Alex Salmond and the larger yes for independent Scotland.

      We have now latched on to what Stu has been talking about and trying to instil.
      To look for discrepancies, things that do not add up.

    304. Confused says:

      House! – I win “twat bingo” – Boyle has appeared.

      Boyle – do you ever read your own verbal vomit? Or have any self awareness?

      It’s a trait of the psychopath to accuse others of what they themselves are guilty of. A “get your retaliation in first” strategy.

      The Ellis/Main/Boyle/Chas group has clearly tried to take-over this forum because it still has some importance due to residual traffic. But the creatures are given away by their words; there is nothing positive from them, and when you take it as a whole, it doesn’t make sense, unless you conclude they are fakes, trying to cause trouble.

      Ellis is a “nationalist” who believes everything the BBC says, and wants the little englander blood and soil incomers to have a veto on our self determination; who calls everyone nazis, but says in the ‘krain there aren’t any, really; he also has an undisguised hatred for the Scots natives – which makes him eminently qualified to be a nationalist. He should join the SNP, they would welcome him.

      He is also very passionate about a phoney baloney country with no history, culture other than than the scraps picked up from russia, poland, lithuania – but seems to think a real country like Scotland with an actual history, is an irrelevance we should not talk about. International law means a lot to him – except when people suggest using such, the treaty, to further our ends. Also, anything he doesn’t like is a “conspiracy theory” like “neoliberalism”.

      – he should be screaming at walls in a locked room, by himself, but by the inadequacy of this comment system manages to stodge up just about every thread into something about his own obsessions.

      “As far as I am concerned, Scotland will be reborn when the last minister is strangled with the last copy of the Sunday Post.” Tom Nairn

      – but it won’t ever happen because John Main will still be reading it.

      “Big Saruman-Wormtongue” vibe off these two.

      Chas is just some dumb prick.

      Boyle – your posts are mince. Unlike Ellis you are merely a wee wee jobby and need to pass your exams to get your doctorate like Ellis in Big Jobby Relations – who at least provides some mirth from his bipolar mania as he appears to be unravelling slowly, like Clouseau’s boss.

      you sound like a NornIrn lad with just enough read-across knowledge of the scots political/glasgow scene to be able to post credibly.

      Are you down in Kentigern House or the Scottish Office by the quay?

      Your boss, Ken MacCallum got his job ultimately for the same reason you did – he knows the west of scotland scene, for when indy comes it will be Glasgow where it is decided. This is the only “threat” to the union

      Your posts are a good effort, but in many ways they do not make sense and are full of “tells”

      – Scots don’t compare Scotland to English regions; we don’t care, not even Gers fans

      – the “it was the Irish who were the bad guys in history not England” is bullshit I have only ever heard from the English; and Cromwell was only doing BOB A JOB

      – the anti catholic digs hidden within “up the workers” are also a giveaway

      – your telling of the anti poll tax movement is bullshit, you were never there and know nothing of it; or maybe you were, but only as an informant

      – get them to give you better briefing notes in future, flag this up to your supervisor; get yourself a new handle and come back with something more subtle, hey now “Brian Coyle”

      fuck english bastards pretending to be scottish

      fuck unionists pretending to be nationalist

      fuck “huns” pretending to despise the “old firm”; I bet you’re a “partick thistle” fan as well. Ken McC is a jags fan too!

      fuck rightwingers pretending to be on the old left

      and fuck you mate, you’ve HAVE been spotted.

    305. Mark Boyle says:

      Robert Graham says:
      21 June, 2022 at 12:23 pm

      Anyone care to add to the growing list of useless parasites who have been attracted to this site

      All together now fk off dickheads you were rumbled long ago.

      Confused says:
      21 June, 2022 at 1:39 pm

      House! – I win “twat bingo” – Boyle has appeared … Are you down in Kentigern House or the Scottish Office by the quay?

      Thank you for proving my very point – anonymous posters all preaching the exact same “party line” as certain failed bloggers, and quick to fling about accusations of conspiracies and that everyone disagreeing with them is doing the very thing they are in fact doing.

      Crawl back to Twitter and your supermarket own brand blended whisky bottle, it’s all you have left.

    306. Republicofscotland says:

      I couldn’t care less that she called Sturgeon a “Drooling Hag” many have called her worse, including me, nor the fact that she has that psychopath look to her, its more to do with that she’s a die-hard unionist who’ll do her utmost to suppress the teaching of Scottish history if she can, and that she’ll actively work against the best interests of Scotland.

      “THE Unionist parties have worked together to elect a Tory who was struck off the teaching register after calling Nicola Sturgeon a “drooling hag” to a paid role overseeing education in Fife.

      Kathleen Leslie, a Conservative councillor for the Burntisland, Kinghorn and Western Kirkcaldy ward, was narrowly elected to be the convener of the Education Scrutiny Committee on Tuesday morning.

      Leslie’s nomination was put forward by Councillor Dave Dempsey, the only other Conservative to sit on the committee, and seconded by Councillor Aude Boubaker-Calder, a LibDem.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20224933.tory-called-nicola-sturgeon-drooling-hag-gets-top-paid-job-fife-council%2F

    307. Republicofscotland says:

      I’m not really a football fan, unless our national team is playing, however, I prefer this team getting plaudits from Spain, rather than Murdo Frasers Queens Eleven.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fsport%2F20224692.celtic-named-best-fan-chant-world-spanish-news-site%2F

    308. Republicofscotland says:

      Things on the supposed indyref will hopefully become a little bit clearer next Tuesday, we await the day with bated breath.

      “NICOLA Sturgeon is to set out her ‘routemap’ to a second independence referendum next week.

      The First Minister will explain to MSPs how she can deliver on an SNP manifesto commitment to stage Indyref2 despite the UK Government withholding the necessary powers.

      Ms Sturgeon is due to make a statement and answer questions at Holyrood next Tuesday for an hour starting at 2.20pm.

      SNP Constitution Secretary Angus Robertson has said the aim is to hold the vote in October 2023.

      The Scottish Government revealed the statement date at a meeting of the parliamentary bureau, which considers the timetabling of chamber business, earlier today.”

    309. Republicofscotland says:

      So the die-hard BLiS branch manager in Scotland Anas Sarwar has defied his multi-millionaire knight of the realm boss Sir Keir Starmer and joined the rail strike, I’d say in the hope of scoring brownie points with the Scottish public, that Labour are now a socialist party (yes I laughed at that one myself).

      BLiS in Scotland opposed Cordia women getting the same wage as Cordia men for twelve years and even took it to court costing the Scottish taxpayer over £3million quid in fees, not to mention the half a billion payout to the Cordia women.

      And then there’s this.

      “MILLIONAIRE Scottish Labour leadership contender Anas Sarwar is under pressure over jobs which were advertised at his family’s firm for less than the “real” living wage. Recruits were offered £7.50 an hour last month for a 45-hour week at the hugely-profitable United Wholesale (Scotland) Ltd, in which Sarwar has a multi-million pound stake.”

    310. Ottomanboi says:

      ROBERT HUGHES/JAMES CHE.
      Alas, having a resource can be the excuse for either being invaded or politically subverted or for being held in some imperialist vice like grip.
      Scotland is blessed with an abundance of natural resources, all squeeky clean and marketable to an energy hungry world. Next time people complain about the rain ruining their day consider the parts of the world where that might just make the perfect day and where wars have started when the water stopped flowing.
      Basrah…current temp.49.
      https://www.hrw.org/report/2019/07/22/basra-thirsty/iraqs-failure-manage-water-crisis
      The abundance of oil has led to administrative neglect, complacency, rural poverty and, of course, increased corruption….Scotland is THE promised land in comparison.
      Scotland’s leaders need to sort their real world priorities and promote the excellent cause they have become so negligent and complacent about.

    311. Dan says:

      Signs that Scotland is ever closer to becoming a republic as reams of huge leftover Jubilee special edition Dairy Milk chocolate bars are priced down due to not selling…

      #NomFuckingNomYaBass

      NB. My procuring of several was purely for ecological reasons as would hate seeing the energy that went into creating them being wasted.

    312. Republicofscotland says:

      Today is World Press Freedom Day, spare a thought for journalist Julian Assange and his persecution by the UK and the US, his Wikileaks website has constantly published the truth.

      Also for Craig Murray, who’s journalism has revealed much about the UK government and the Scottish government, he’s also been denied press accreditation by IPSO for no good reason.

    313. Breeks says:

      https://twitter.com/AmyCallaghanSNP/status/1538897047486713856?cxt=HHwWgMC-1cKtodsqAAAA

      Yeah, but…. yeah, but…. Naw.

      Not while Joanna Cherry has her complaint about grievous bullying simply “shunned” by the SNP.

      And certainly not after the SNP’s complaints procedure was expressly weaponised to frame Alex Salmond, brand him a sex offender and see him sent to jail.

      Sorry Amy, I’ve no idea whether you’re sincere, taking the piss, or trying to wriggle off a hook, but after the SNP’s shabby complaints procedures were described as “unlawful in respect that they were procedurally unfair” and had been “tainted with apparent bias”… I’m really not willing to listen to you prattling on about a root and branch review about the SNP’s complaints procedures.

      You don’t half take us all for total chumps.

      Next you’ll be calling for an Inquiry, and we all know what they do. Half of that wee speech of yours will be redacted by the big black marker for a start. Mustn’t have any culpability by SNP actually written down. Didn’t you get the SNP memo?

    314. John Main says:

      Looks like my belief that people can be easily persuaded to support something if they are shown how they will benefit is getting little traction from some posters.

      And there was me thinking the stereotype of the mean, grippy Scot was recognised around the world.

      But no, it’s all about the intangibles of Indy, if some are to be believed, and tae fuck wi the benefits. Which leads me to ask why those posters who bemoan the draining of Scotland’s surplus funds to England, or those who like to tell us how resource-rich Scotland is, aren’t told to shut up, because that’s all irrelevant.

      So here’s another idea. Let those who support Indy “just because”, and those who support Indy in order to right wrongs from the thick end of a millennium ago, keep their ideaological purity to themselves for a wee while. Those cash-strapped Scots who might want to see Indy as a means of getting ahead in life don’t need to be told their reasons for voting Yes aren’t good enough.

    315. Effigy says:

      The ideal response the moment the flood gate of Tory lies gush out.

      https://twitter.com/MccarthyFintan/status/1539083696116047874?t=BpqfteukFWzV_5ZzMymUxw&s=08

    316. Republicofscotland says:

      “Looks like my belief that people can be easily persuaded to support something if they are shown how they will benefit is getting little traction from some posters.”

      Oh yeah Main, and the conditions exist in Scotland for that message to get out via our very fair and non bias media, dream on pal, your belief went down in 2014 when the Britnats, the Civil Service and the entire UK media conspired through lies and fear to compel folk to vote no.

      And if by some miracle Sturgeon does hold what looks like to be a very ill thought out indyref next October, those dark forces will once again conspire to thwart Scotland leaving this union through lies and fear, for the benefits of the union do not in any way outweigh those of Scotland becoming an independent nation and the Britnats know this fine well.

      If it was a fair contest without the lies, deception and fearmongering from the Britnats in an indyref, Yes would breeze past the finish line percentage wise with style.

      As Craig Murray said the conditions do not exist in Scotland for a fair indyref.

      I’m sorry but an indyref isn’t the route out of this putrid union, many, but not enough folk recognise this yet.

    317. Robert Hughes says:

      Breeks @ 7.19

      Check the language in that #Mea2 Culpa . A * wee * bit OTT or what ?

      Amy , has , among other concepts , been ” searingly reflective ” , ouch ! bet that- didn’t really- hurt AND ” honest ” ; ahhh , so brave . Her coupon runneth over with empathy , as she seeks expiation for her stupidity in…… getting caught : the cardinal sin of every Politician .

      This is what happens when you construct a world out of reified concepts and mistake it for a real world .

      NSNP are so captured by * progressive * notions , fantasies , enthusiastically – but selectively – applying them to eliminate any perceived threat , that when it rebounds on them you get total farces like this : incredible hypocrisy married to bumbling incompetence .

      And yet another opportunity for our opponents to smear the idea of Independence by association . This is the real offence here . The sexual peccadilloes of these creeps is of no interest to us ( though of great interest to State Security Services no doubt ) , but the damage they’re doing to our ambition is tangible

    318. Dorothy Devine says:

      Effigy , an under used word in my opinion – should be used in Westminster and Holyrood in lengthy widths.

    319. Merganser says:

      Well well. ‘Beware of liars’ indeed. Does Mr. Blackford really think that people will believe that his ‘apology’ is in any way sincere? After saying and doing nothing to help the young staffer for years; and after being forced into it following the revelations of what he and his fellow Westminster MP’s were up to.

      Was it written for him by his boss I wonder.

      Such is the judgement of people who aspire to run an independent Scotland. Scotland deserves better than people who are no different than those in the UK government.

    320. Saffron Robe says:

      I have to say that I think any referendum under Sturgeon will be a poisoned chalice. As the medical adage tells us, “futile intervention is worse than no intervention at all”, and it will turn out to be just another one of Sturgeon’s exercises in futility. Everything she touches goes to pot and a referendum would be no different.

      I have sympathy with those who say we need to give Sturgeon the “benefit of the doubt” and a referendum is the “only game in town”, because it is borne out of a genuine desire for independence, but it is a belief based entirely on faith and not knowledge. Like other false prophets, she strings along the faithful by assuring them that the fervently hoped for goal is imminent (in our case independence) when that is clearly not the case under the cold light of rational scrutiny. The knowledge we have is that Sturgeon has proven beyond doubt over the past eight years that she cannot be trusted and has done nothing to prepare for independence or further its cause, quite the opposite in fact. And as much as I am reluctant to criticise Alex Salmond, I think he has to accept responsibility for enabling her and is possibly the only one who can drive a metaphorical stake through her heart. I understand that he has an attachment to his protégé no matter how monstrous she may be, but no good can possibly come of her.

      We should also be aware that Sturgeon is severely compromised. If she ever did pose a serious threat to the Union, and looked likely to bring us any closer to independence, then she would be immediately neutralised by the British state.

      As Republic of Scotland says, a referendum is no longer the route out of this Union, and any efforts we invest in a referendum under Sturgeon would be in vain.

    321. Breeks says:

      OT. Some light reading

      https://www.inverse.com/culture/watergate-conspiracy-thriller-movies-history?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

      Mmmmm… Watergate.

      If history repeats, it looks like Scotland’s political novelists, movie screenwriters and thriller writers will be heading for decades of boom time in the wake of Sturgeongate… a new “cinematic catnip”.

      Good luck to them. Personally I’d settle for the truth coming out. There’s enough fictional interpretation of events in the “Scottish” media as it is.

      “…Many at the time, however, saw these movies as toothless attempts to emulate the level of corruption happening in real life.”

      Now that bit sounds like an SNP Inquiry…

      “How soon we grow used to the most depressing possibilities about our government.”

      Ain’t that the truth…

    322. Ottomanboi says:

      The Scotch Cringe is a psychological issue. We know the disorder and the treatment is not theoretical physics. «Cringe» is the usual symptom of the colonialized mind.
      Scotland’s relationship with England reflects the British empire’s dealings with other peoples, acknowledging the similarities is stage one in the treatment. The rest is history….sir, uasail, sahib, khawaga, bwana.

    323. James says:

      “…..As John Main says and I have said umpteen times before…”

      ROTFLMAO!

    324. Dorothy Devine says:

      James , I had to look up ROTFLMAO – the urban dictionary says it is ‘used mainly by imbeciles’ , perhaps give it a miss next time because you just know that will be used against you!

    325. Andy Ellis says:

      @Ottomanboi 8.55 am

      It’s quite a leap from accepting that there is such a thing as the cringe to accepting that it somehow proves the validity of the “Scotland as colony” narrative though isn’t it? How do you think people with direct experience of colonisation regard Scotland’s situation? Do you think they accept it or regard it as a false equivalence?

      I know that none of the Irish people I’ve talked to accept that Scotland was colonised in the same sense that Ireland was. The UN has also pointedly not accepted that Scotland’s case is one of de-colonisation. Folk are of course free to disagree with that and quote Fanon, Memmi and Césaire to their hearts content, but it doesn’t mean their proposition is correct or accepted by the independence movement or Scottish voters as a whole.

      Having the colonisation narrative accepted would of course open the door to the use of the novel routes to achieving independence, bypassing the need for referendums or plebiscitary elections. If we’re a poor benighted colony of British imperialism, downtrodden by generations of cultural cringe and exploitation, then it’s a get out of jail free card isn’t it? We have no agency or responsibility: bad things were done to us, and therefore we can call on the international community to treat us in the same way, and accept the same precedents and procedures they used for African and Asian colonies post WW2.

      How long that process will take is anyone’s guess, but I can’t see it happening in the short to medium term can you? The international community, international law such as it is, and precedent since the fall of empires post WW1 means that cases like Quebec, Catalonia, Flanders, Corsica, Euskadi and Scotland are seen in a different light from former African and Asian colonies.

      Re-framing the struggle for Scottish independence as an example of de-colonisation risks lengthening the process, not shortening it.

    326. Ron Maclean says:

      In 1960 the UN ratified the Decolonisation Resolution. Scotland was not classed as a colony because it was incorporated in Great Britain by the Act of Union 1707. Ireland was given colonial status although it also had been part of the United Kingdom. (Baird, 2020).

    327. stuart mctavish says:

      What with Routemaps, backseat drivers, furth o fourth estate diversions and foundations built on tissues of goodness knows what is there still time to consider starting at the destination (assuming its not intended to be somewhere else) and working backwards from there?

      ie treaty of union into abeyance from next Tuesday with liberation of broadcasting and money supply** used to enable punctuation of the programme keydates with Gregor’s truth bombs (or those of anyone else*) all the way to an educated decision on who’s offering the better deal by 19 Oct 2023.

      *to extent feasible given that control of existing UK assets and liabilities also implies control over which creditors, if any, to default on.

      **due diligence and hacking bastards notwithstanding 😉

    328. Merganser says:

      Blah blah Blackford have you any bull?
      Yes sir, yes sir, ten bags full.
      None for the staffer thrown under the bus,
      But ten for the voters to not make a fuss.

    329. Ottomanboi says:

      So Mr ELLIS, the colonization process can only be about Asia and Africa? The methodology of suppression and domination in the European context was in essence little different from that applied in the «non white» elsewhere, I shall not detail it as there is adequate literature to consult on the case.
      Coming from a background which experienced over centuries various forms of colonization, linguistic, cultural, religious and «political» the Scots do manifest all the recognizable symptoms of a people not wholly comfortable with themselves as they are. That lack of cultural confidence is tangible.
      I am not into legalism or imagining the «international community» will rush to the cause. The UN is compromized, the same for the courts of so called international law. This is a local matter, needing local solutions.
      Scots are not an exception, like the rest they have to see themselves as they are, often a shock, and as others see them, not as they imagine they are, then get on with the task of renewal. A majority may be indifferent or hostile but that does not matter. It was, after all, a minority, active and determined, which first realized in the imperial colonies that there was an alternative to the seeming all powerful status quo.
      They thought of as dreamers….

      .

    330. Andy Ellis says:

      @Ottomanboi 1.28 pm

      In this context, yes: “external” self determination is generally (though not universally) accepted as a remedy only available to former imperial possessions seeking it from a metropolitan state. Colonised people enjoy a positive right to independence, even in the face of opposition or attempted prohibition from the metropolitan state.

      “Internal” self determination of part of the metropolitan state – usually deemed to include cases like Quebec, Catalonia and Scotland – is generally (though again not universally) accepted as the remedy available to parts of the metropolitan states under certain conditions, which are less unilateral in nature. In international law Scotland’s situation is sometimes termed “constitutional self determination”: the right is via an informal constitutional grant of authority, whereas some states actually have formal constitutional provisions allowing secession.

      It’s all very well saying you’re not in to legalism or that you think the UN is compromised (I agree that it is, just as I agree international law is an imperfect guide) but international recognition will involve attention to and from both. We don’t want to end up like the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, Transnistria, South Ossetia or Somaliland, or even “partially” recognised like Kosovo.

      Generally four criteria for internal or constitutional self determination are emerging:

      1) The referendum question must be clear an unambiguous (arguably the Quebec sovereignty association referendum questions failed this test as they were convoluted and confusing);

      2) The process must be open and involve both sides (per the Badinter Commission on Yugoslavia, which is important because it means that “unionist” boycotts are irrelevant if the chose not to participate, rather than being prevented or the process being rigged as it was in e.g. Crimea in 2014);

      3) The result must be clear. Generally 50% +1 is the norm, but some votes (e.g. Montenegro) impose minimum votes in favour of 55%;

      4) In the event of a Yes vote for independence, good faith negotiations should take place to ensure the interests of both sides. (The Canadian Supreme Court made this point in its discussion of the Clarity Act, going so far as to say that bad faith on the part of the Canadian Federal government in any dispute could potentially be seen by the international community as justifying UDI);

      The criteria above will be particularly important if Scotland wants to join the EU post indy: Cyprus, Greece, Romania, Spain, and Slovakia are all likely to veto an application which is seen as “illegitimate” or the result of UDI. None of these states recognise Kosovo for example.

      So…. a local solution that doesn’t involve a negotiated settlement with the UK isn’t going to be easy. It doesn’t really matter that the proponents of the “Scotland as colony” narrative have convinced themselves our situation is the same as “real” colonies, hardly anyone else is buying the snake oil.

    331. wull says:

      I have never thought of Scotland as a colony. I have met over the course of many years some English people who used to seem to presume that Scotland was precisely a colony. That used to make my blood boil, because I KNEW, with absolute certainty, that it was a lie, and a straightforward denial of the legal and historical realities. The only benefit was that it showed me just how little so many English people knew about what he UK actually is, both juridically and in reality.

      In the 1980s, an erstwhile friend of mine from Brighton even told me, while we were on a train journey together, that Scotland could never become independent, because it was ‘the only thing that England had left’! It struck me at the time that if I was so ignorant as he obviously was, i wouldn’t want to display it as openly, or as publicly, as he had just done. And I let him know it.

      The whole point about any form of the ‘Scotland is a colony narrative’ is that it is a downright LIE. Anyone who buys into it is buying into UNTRUTH. And, indeed, into the lying propaganda which England has sought to spread throughout the world for centuries.

      In the end, although propagated by people who might often identify themselves as ‘Unionists’, and some of whom might identify themselves as Scots (though usually only secondarily to being ‘British’), it is a LIE which not only fails to understand what the UNION actually is, but even denies its existence.

      In that regard, this lie – like all lies – contains within itself the seeds of its own undoing. It actually cancels the Union of 1707, in which case you can score out the word ‘United’, and all you are left with is ‘Kingdom’.

      Alex Salmond, who really did know some history (and its implications) understood this very well, as did the SNP as a Party under his leadership. That is why he had no hesitation in proposing that an independent Scotland would retain the monarchy. He understood very well that the Union he and the then SNP were intending to undo, once and for all. was that of 1707, not that of 1603.

      The present incumbent hasn’t a clue about all that, and presumably never did have, even though she tagged along with AS in order – it turns out – to advance her own career and pervert the agenda of her Party by ditching its priorities and replacing them with hers, which were then concealed and unknown but are now all too evident and obvious, not to say intrusive.

      Maybe it is not only the course of justice but also the course of history that inveterate liars seek to pervert.

      Be that as it may, the Union of the Crowns that occurred when James VI inherited the English throne on the death of England’s Elizabeth I did not mean a fusion of the two nations. Although James did try to unite them, his plans were thrown out not only by the Scots but also – perhaps even more vehemently, indeed – by the English. The English parliament of the day would have none of it.

      The idea of a ruler holding governing authority over two otherwise entirely separate nations, without one being subjected to or colonised by the other, was common in those days. Although the modalities by which that was to operate were certainly different from what happened in 1603, that basic assumption still underlay the Union of the parliaments of 1707.

      It was also the assumption on which the first closely and cogently argued proposal for a Union of the Crowns was put forward, in the 16th Century, by the Scottish philosopher and theologian John Mair. He published his ‘History of Greater Britain’ (the official title is much longer than that, but that is the gist of it) in 1521, if I remember rightly.

      Mair saw this Union of Crowns as a means to put an end to the frequent, ongoing and often highly destructive warfare between England and Scotland. Don’t forget he was writing only a few years after the disaster of Flodden.

      Although historians do not often point it out, while he was writing tthis book, which is a parallel history of Scotland and England, there was a real possibility that James V, who was still a child, might be married off to Henry VIII’s then heir, Mary Tudor.

      Mary was Henry’s only legitimate child, and it is quite possible – although it would have been confidential – that Mair already knew that Catherine of Aragon, Henry’s legitimate wife, to whom the English king was still married, was miscarrying so often that it was unlikely that she would have further children. In that case, if the Tudor-Stuart marriage had taken place, and eventually proved fruitful, then the heir born to it would have inherited the Scottish throne from his/her father and the English throne from his/her mother.

      The Union of the crowns would thus have happened a few decades sooner, and probably more smoothly, than it actually did, when it happened by another route in 1603. The course of the history of both England and Scotland would have been substantially altered. As in 1603, (despite James VI’s unsuccessful attempt to change this) the two kingdoms would have remained politically separate, as two clearly distinct nations, even though each had the same king.

      Exactly how all that would have panned out, no one can say. That Mair envisaged it is indisputable, however. That is why he wrote his book as a parallel account of the history of both nations. It is also why he always praises any intermarriage that had previously taken place between the two royal families. He is very clear that he is not envisaging any form of sell-out of Scotland to England, and that what he expects to transpire will retain the independence of both nations. The purpose of his projected union is simply – at last – a cessation of warfare and peace between them.

      Strangely enough, you can even see this as a forerunner – at least in some ways, or to some extent – of what the founders of the European Union likewise had primarily in mind, after the Second World War. Their main objective was to create a Union in such a way that none of the member states would ever again go to war against another member state, if not for idealistic reasons then because because such action would go clean contrary to their interests.

      The strange thing about those so keen to presume or impose their mistaken and unresearched ‘English imperial’ view of the 1707 Union, which undermines and ignores the reality of that Union’s very terms, is that this Anglo-centric ‘imperial style narrative’ has no place and no intention for peace within it. None whatsoever. It is essentially jingoistic and aggressive, part of a an English war-and-(false)-propaganda ideology that has strong roots going back deep into the Medieval period. It is enshrined and symbolised, above all, in the attitudes and actions of Edward I, and the Scottish riposte to it, so well expressed in song and verse, is not wrong to point that out.

      As noted above, its inconsistencies contain its own self-destruct button. Boris Johnson might just be the man to push that button too forcefully, and set off the whole overdue implosion. Which of course would combine with many other imploding factors, currently more than a little bit in evidence, which will unfortunately affect everyone on all sides of the border.

      Everyone, except – maybe, but as usual – our respective elites. Who no doubt have many escape routes all mapped out, by which to slink off at the shortest possible notice with their (or ‘our’) money as fast as their poor wee legs can carry them.

      Granted the way the monarchy behaved just prior to the 2014 referendum, and just after it, and ever since, that option of going back to the legal and political and constitutional situation of 1603 is looking a lot less viable than it once did.

      AS seems to be aware of that.

      NS, it seems, never understood any of it anyway…

      So, no need to expect anything except more Non Sense from that quarter.

      Or from her faithful NSP (Non Sense whatever-P-stands-for) members either.

    332. wull says:

      What is a ‘Routemap’? Especially ‘a Routemap for independence’?

      Is it a typo?

      Does she really mean ‘a Rout Map’. Especially a ‘Rout Map for Independence?’

      Maybe it’s a new book coming out, full of ‘papers’… If not a title, then maybe a sub-title. As in…

      ‘How Not to Get Independence: A Rout Map for Beginners’!

      The last line of which might be something like: ‘Even if you win, act as if you lost!’ As has happened before, not least with winning all those numerous ‘mandates’…

      Having said that, I still believe that whatever the intentions and deficiencies behind whatever this is – scam or sham or whatever – NS might just have unleashed something much bigger than anything she can handle. Something that she can’t escape from any longer. It can so easily come back to bite her, from all kinds of different directions at one and the same time. I don’t think she ever put herself in this position before.

      She is now a hostage to fortune.



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