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In England’s Dreaming

Posted on December 05, 2018 by

We now have the verdicts on Brexit from three of the UK’s four nations. The Scottish Parliament, speaking for the Scottish nation, voted overwhelmingly this afternoon to reject both Theresa May’s draft agreement and leaving the EU without a deal.

And it wasn’t alone.

Because just hours earlier, the Welsh Senedd had done the same on behalf of the people of Wales, by a margin of more than two to one:

And while Northern Ireland has had no functioning devolved Parliament for almost two years, not a single one of its 18 Westminster MPs will vote for the Prime Minister’s deal either – the DUP (10) are opposed and Sinn Fein (7) never vote.

Scream if you want to go faster, readers. But let the historical record clearly show that if and when Brexit does happen, just one of the four “equal partners” of the United Kingdom will be solely responsible, with the other three strongly opposed but being dragged along anyway by the only one whose opinion actually matters.

And whether you personally happen to be pro-Brexit or anti-Brexit, let those who voted against Scotland having the power to decide its own fate in 2014 be held unequivocally and eternally accountable for that helpless impotence.

Because this site’s position is clear: there is no future in England’s dreaming.

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    1. 05 12 18 19:56

      In England’s Dreaming | speymouth

    180 to “In England’s Dreaming”

    1. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      So, the three nations that contribute most to the UK’s deficit, have taken the hump with the only nation in the UK that sends oodles of cash to the other three, thus those three should be grateful for the munificence of the one and accept that it is the one with the savvy to get things organised properly.

      AYE RIGHT!

    2. Alan says:

      “not a single one of its 12 Westminster MPs will vote for the Prime Minister’s deal either – the DUP (8) are opposed and Sinn Fein (4) never vote.”

      Er… check your numbers for the NI MPs? There are 18 total – 10 DUP, 7 Sinn Fein and 1 independent.

    3. farnorthdavie says:

      Better together? My a**e!

    4. Welsh Sion says:

      Also note that *all* the National Parties on these islands (Plaid Cymru, SNP, DUP, Sinn Fein and Mebyon Kernow) are against the Maybot’s Brexit ‘plan’ … barring one.

      Who is the entity in favour of the ‘plan’? The Theresa May English-Nationalist Party.

      If we are all to be dragged out of the EU (and SM) om the basis of the pig-headed arrogance and ignorance of one individual, I declaim the official death of democracy on these islands. (I say *official*, as I’m sure you’ll agree it has been dead some time – if it ever lived here. I’m just recognising the autopsy.)

    5. robertknight says:

      Dear 2014 Nawbags…

      To quote a band member…

      “Ever get the feeling you’ve been cheated?”

    6. starlaw says:

      If May wins this vote I’d hate to be around when the English people who mostly support her find just exactly will become of them.

    7. galamcennalath says:

      So, are the Tory MSPs loyal to May, or simply disloyal to Scotland?

      Rejecting both May’s dreadful withdrawal agreement AND a no deal exit, is the right and proper position for Remain voting Scotland. Every vote counting region returned a Remain result. Four of five parties recognise that. So who are the Tory MSPs representing?

      And, who are the Tory MPs at the Midden going to represent? Certainly won’t be their constituents either!

    8. Terry says:

      The Pistols. How appropriate.

      “And if Adolph Hitler flew in today, they’d send a limousine anyway”. The Clash. 1977

      Mind you it could be 2018 “doon the road”.

      Wingers, if you’re not already in your local Yes group just go along. We are out there, doing stalls, delivering leaflets. Nicola is playing a blinder. And westmimster is helping Indy with the omnishambles, knickers in a twist that is brexit.

    9. jimnarlene says:

      ‘Twas ever thus.

    10. galamcennalath says:

      Won’t it be hilarious if May ia defeated at WM by a smallish margin, because it will effectively be MPs from Scotland which swung it!

      If rUK would have accepted the WA, but it’s defeated overall when Scots votes are added, I will piss myself laughing.

    11. Terence callachan says:

      Theresa Mays deal will be rejected
      Westminster will not allow a crash out no deal Brexit
      The EU have said Theresa Mays deal is the final deal on offer and cannot be amended
      That leaves two options

      1) Another EU referendum or as England like to call it “a people’s vote”
      OR
      2) REMAIN

      England can’t call a second EU referendum “a second referendum” because it would imply second referendums are possible which flies in the face of what they have said to Scotland that second referendums are not allowed.

      REMAIN is where we are heading and kezia is just getting Labour,s mantra into practice by now insisting that people CAN change their mind, they,re allowed to change their mind if circumstances change
      Remember that bit, “if circumstances change” because labour will now contend that nothing has changed since the last Scottish independence referendum and that will be their battle cry
      They will say yes okay the Tories took us to the brink of Brexit but labour stopped them
      They will say Scotland is just the same now as it was after the 2014 Scottish independence referendum
      I’m sure a lot of British nationalists will wear that badge be they remainer or brexiter

      I have said this before but I will say it again, England had more to lose by losing control of Scotland than it did by brexiting
      England had hoped that Nicola Sturgeon would call a second referendum then they would have played out this whole Brexit charade and in the end REMAINED
      Then they would have pointed to the SNP and Scotland and said look at them ("Tractor" - Ed)s opportunists you can picture it in the headlines
      Nicola Sturgeon knows all this she was too smart for them, she knows that we have to wait for all the facts to be available before making a decision
      That is what lawyers insist on having
      All the facts
      There are court decisions pending too
      And a possible general election
      But be aware the British state has used Englands identity confusion to create Brexit then forced it on Scotland Wales and Ireland with the aim of simply ensuring that England control this whole island.
      Think of a border between Scotland and England and not long after it a border between Wales and England which would surely follow after an independent Scotlands success and happiness.
      England presents itself to the world as this whole island it act and talks a big talk but as England alone it is small and that is their fear , they fear being just what they are.

    12. galamcennalath says:

      Me @ 7:32pm

      Looks like Scottish MPs might vote 46 against May’s WA, 13 for. Net 33 against.

      So rUK needs to deliver May a majority of 34, if Scots aren’t to swing it.

      On the other hand, rUK might well defeat May without Scots.

    13. Clootie says:

      …..make it stop! Please make it stop!

      Independence would do it!

    14. Colin Alexander says:

      Will someone tell Stu and Nicola Sturgeon that the UK is not four nations, it’s two Kingdoms: Scotland and England; along with the principality of Wales and a part of Ireland both of which are military conquests of England.

      A UK where the myth is a partnership of four equal nations, but where England subjugates Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland, and the devolved “govts” are token puppet govts to maintain England’s domination through a rigged UK Parliament system where England’s MPs greatly outnumber all the rest.

    15. Stoops says:

      Don’t know about anyone else, but I am thoroughly enjoying this rapidly accelerating clusterfuck. May HAS to have Brexit, she’s been telt by the people who pull her strings to leave the EU. So it’s a shit deal or no deal and that will initiate the collapse of the union. Even if she fails to deliver Brexit there’ll be riots in the streets of England and that will initiate the collapse of the union.

      As Rimmer would say, “Marvellous”.

    16. Ken500 says:

      The DUP ready to put the boot in. There are reports May could lose by 100.

      Brewer (three minutes – then over and out) advocates May could go but the Tories struggle on. They are fighting like rats in a sack. Hardly likely there will be agreement.

      Mundell has finally lost the plot. Projecting joint trade mission with May and Nicola. Biggest joke of all with May heading for the door.

      What a laugh Bercow protecting May from the truth. What a blatant mess of lies and corruption. Bercow the bully protects the liar May. Bercow should have been gone but clinging on for privileges and extra money.

    17. Zen Broon says:

      It’s worse than that. After centuries of ‘British’ bullshit from its middle classes England has rediscovered that it is an actual nation. Brexit is the beginning, not the end of that process. It now has to go through the trauma of working out who it is and what it really wants. Believe me, Scotland does not want to hang around in England’s “care” while that process – unlikely to be pretty – is going on.

    18. Al Ba says:

      Re: “.. the only one whose opinion actually matters.”
      -You mean the only country that usually gets their own way, as surely Scotland matters, as do Wales & Northern Ireland – but Cameron’s soundbyte from 2014 ‘English votes for English laws’ raised England’s nationalistic attitude to new heights, and drove an even bigger wedge between Engerlund and what it believes are it’s “regions”, as opposed to the nations/countries within the (dis)United Kingdom.
      The so-called “will of the people” in this planned, devisive Brexit vote was executed knowing that it would put massive stress on the whole of the UK – its people, its businesses, and undermine any further desire for self-determination.
      Time and again the UK has been lied to, given false assurances, the truth hidden or made near impossible to determine, smothered by media playing the “England’s more important than you stupid folk” game.
      What happens next?……

    19. Andy-B says:

      Yes it has been all downhill as part of this onesided union since the 2014 independence referendum. I’m hoping soft noes will now vote yes to independence allowing Scotland to move away from shambolic English policies and imperial notions of yesteryear global dominance, and splendid isolation.

      I hope like me most folk, we will welcome those who have seen the light and changed to yes with open arms, afterall we all, want to see Scotland flourish, well most of us do.

      Its not too late to save Scotland from the dire consequences of Brexit.

    20. Craig Macinnes says:

      The U.K. isn’t a union of nations, it’s an English dictatorship.

    21. mike cassidy says:

      Re May deal vote

      One of Nana’s links this morning drew attention to an unintended consequence of the Grieve Amendment.

      The hard-line brexiteers might vote for the deal as the only way to get any sort of brexit at all.

    22. jfngw says:

      It looks like it’s coming to crunch time regarding the sovereignty of the Scottish people. If we are sovereign and have voted to keep our EU citizenship but it is being removed by another country anyway then it would seem to me we are not sovereign at all.

      The majority of the people, the majority of Scottish MP’s and the majority of MSP’s have voted against Brexit. Along with the fact that a majority of them also voted against a referendum in the first place.

      The next few months will determine whether Scotland is really a country or as the Unionist parties believe effectively just a troublesome region of England.

    23. Effijy says:

      John McDonnell the Labour Shadow Chancellor was on Channel 4
      confirming that he along with Corbyn agree that Ireland was right to fight for its right to Independence and how the future of Northern Ireland must be decided by its people??

      How on earth can they say and believe in this but the people of
      Scotland must succumb to their English masters for all time and have no voice or right to be heard by England’s parliament.

      These people are completely insane and the pretend journalist couldn’t ask pertinent questions at a quiz night.

      I’m a Scot! Get me out of here!

    24. galamcennalath says:

      mike cassidy says:

      hard-line brexiteers might vote for the deal as the only way to get any sort of brexit at all

      Yes. Although they hate the backstop, at least May’s deal delivers a Brexit. Also, it’s a blindfold Brexit with a lot if negotiations still to come. The hard liners might believe the final deal (~5years away) could be hard, especially if they are willing to dump NI leaving it in the EU effectively.

    25. Daisy Walker says:

      The above information/article won’t ever be presented on ‘National’ TV / media in the way it is here.

      WM and the meaningful vote – 3 options:

      1/
      A No Deal Brexit (handily misunderstood by a significant amount of the electorate who think it means call the whole thing off) – keeps the UK away from European Court of Justice jurisdiction and the incoming Tax Haven Legislation.

      2/
      Terrible May’s deal – which keeps NI in SM, CU and ECJ ruling, but gives mainland Britain ‘special’ access if they comply with the rules, and is also Out of ECJ – which means they are free from the incoming Tax Haven Legislation with some forms of trade still do-able.

      Both the above suit the establishment very well thank you.

      And the Cancel Brexit option – the one they fought tooth and nail to prevent. Which means all the powerful elite will have some interesting conversations with the tax man.

      I think it is now highly unlikely there will be a HoC vote on the above because of option 3. Unless they can beg, bully or bribe the votes of course. But even if they win, there would still be a chance of another vote before 29/3/19 which they could lose. Hmm – bit risky.

      Which leaves the following courses of action available to them. May out and a Leadership contest, followed by unsuccessful negotiating with EU by the next PM, followed by not very conclusive GE, followed by Grand Coalition, followed by Peoples Vote…. or indeed any combination/order of the above. The order doesn’t matter too much, the fact that it burns up time until 29/3/19 is what counts.

      The Cancel button has to be done before that date, primarily by a HoC vote or Referendum, but then ratified and letter sent by the WM Govt to the EU. This is in the AG’s (the EU one) report.

      Interesting to see Lord Heseltine speaking over on the Revs Twitter account and sounding like a statesman and a human. That’s multi millionaire tory – Lord Heseltine – why now? Putting in the effort ‘too little and too late’ in order to save the Tory Party for a few years down the line perhaps.

      I am minded of the Thatcher years, 3 General Elections, and each time, each time I could not believe they kept getting back in, and in Perth – Nicky Fairbairn for heavens sake. By the third time I had given up hoping (still voted though).

      But it took that long, not for the non tories to persuade folk to their view, but for the English Nationalist Tories to destroy their own credibility, with their own Scottish supporters.

      And when the chance for Devolution came along, for me it seemed, there was little debate, few discussions, people just got their heads down and voted. Job done, done deal, matter of fact and not up for discussion.

      We don’t do jolly, hopeful, optimistic – its not Scotland’s style. We do grim, pessimistic, practical, pragmatic and Thrawn.

      Fuck em, its comin yet, fir aw that.

    26. Bob Mack says:

      Ultimately it comes down to the fact many Scots perceived they had a valuable place in the Union. It was all smoke and mirrors of course. A conjuring trick to distract us whilst they dipped into our resources.

      A nation of 5 million should never assume they are as important as a nation of 60 million. The majority will always dictate to the minority about what they can do ,and how they can do it.

      If nothing else,the SNP have shown there is a better way to govern ourselves, but is always disadvantaged by so called Democracy, which is actually a front for dictatorship.

      It beggars belief that having watched and listened to the mess at Westminster, people can still consider these eejits suitable to determine our way of life.

      The revolution is surely coming

    27. Another Union Dividend says:

      Following Gordon Brewer’s comments on Politics Scotland that the Scottish Parliament vote this afternoon on Brexit didn’t matter, BBC Scotland underlines its commitment to Scottish football when Sportscene is on at 00.45 AM tonight after one hour of really important English Match of the Day football.

    28. Roger says:

      NI has 18 MPs, 10 DUP, 7 Sinn Fein and Lady Sylvia Hermon (independent)…

    29. Macart says:

      Well said.

      Spooky how it’s ended up here. Almost as if following process to a logical conclusion or constitutional crisis. 😎

    30. Artyhetty says:

      Whatever happens regards England’s Brexit and taking us all out of the EU against the will of the people of Scotland, NI and Wales, there has been a change in circumstances. Scotland now knows that the Westminster English government hold Scotland, Scotland’s SNP MP’s,Scotland’s SNP MP’s, and Scotland’s people, in utter contempt.

      The people of Scotland now know that they are not important in the so called ‘UK’ but that their resources, land and seas most certainly are.

      Imo, circumstances have changed, Scotland was lied to, then told to shut up and put up when the English voters and their parliament decided to take us out of the EU, already at great cost to the economy, totally and utterly in contrast to the Britants’ message on billboards in 2014.

      Now, do we just say, aw, OK then, we are staying in the EU
      ( poss but unlikely) because our nice friends and ‘equal partners’ (lol) have said we can. I am sure they will treat us with great respect now, and it will be status quo with London gold paving the Streets of Dundee and Glasgow, all living in a lovely all in it together utopia. Skip skip away into the abusive, yet to be punished by the Britants, Scottish sunset. Do we continue to put up with a major bully ruling OVER Scotland?

      No, Scotland will not see business as usual it will be a case of removing the SNP by whatever means, most likely foul, and Bob’s your uncle, direct London rule for another 300 years!

      NO thanks.

    31. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Perhaps the most significant aspect of the vote in Holyrood today is that the Unionist Coalition is now split, with the Tories isolated. Brexit has finally overcome the tribalism that has beset Scottish politics for far too long and has (however temporarily) restored natural alliances.

      Hopefully people will notice, and more and more begin to recognise the rightness of the SG’s approach from day-1,despite the media’s valiant attempts to hide and distract. About Engexit and much more besides, including finally the Big One…

    32. Legerwood says:

      Seems Len McLuskey is laying down the law about a ‘People’s vote’. It’s a no. Would be bad for the Labour party apparently. Article in the Guardian – link below

      http://archive.is/4MtVK

    33. Artyhetty

      removing the SNP by whatever means.

      I think you are quite right, sadly I predict some underhand attack against the SNP as Westminster gets increasingly desperate they will be forced to lash out.

      Control over internet content for starts, just for national security reasons you understand.

    34. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Colin Alexander at 7.55

      Don’t be silly now, Colin. They are, of course, four nations. You are confusing that by quoting constitutional status which is not the same thing.

    35. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Ken500 at 7.57

      I think Bercow is doing a great job and thoroughly enjoys entertaining us all. His intervention guaranteed that Blackford’s statement got full media coverage.

      Bercow was actually the Tory candidate for Motherwell South in 1986 when I was the SNP election agent there. He was a personable and entertaining guy who conceded to us that had he been Scots he would have been in the SNP.

    36. Robert Peffers says:

      I have a strange feeling that the ECJ final ruling may have a little twist or two. It may be that the courts and not either Westminster or Holyrood will set Scotland free.

    37. call me dave says:

      O/T

      Jings! Killie on top of league.

      Aberdeen win at Ibrox…Rev happy! 🙂

    38. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Legerwood @ 21:03:

      one of Jeremy Corbyn’s closest and most powerful supporters

      Well, that’s a Graun understatement already. Neo-Stalinist McCluskey is the paymaster and real (if unelected) leader of Labour. Corbyn is but his parliamentary tool, and is surrounded by a gaggle of Unite minders to ensure he stays on-message.

      No wonder that, despite the current Tory shambolithon, Labour is struggling to win popular approval, even down in England. And for all his faux populism, as far as Scotland is concerned, McCluskey is just as much of a vile neo-colonial English imperialist as the rest.

    39. Terence callachan says:

      Even with all that has happened over the last few years it will be a close call.
      There are Tories in Scotland that don’t care what country they are from their allegiance is not to country their allegiance is to money that’s why they are happy to avoid paying taxes that’s why they are eager to use offshore tax havens and London helps them to do so.These people will vote against Scottish independence always.
      There are Labour voters in Scotland who are not interested in what country they are from too and their allegiance is to Britain they love to talk about the war and poppies and Union Jack flags and how foreigners take all the jobs and school places and crowd out the NHS.These people will vote against Scottish independence always.
      There are a lot of workers from overseas in the oil and gas industry in Scotland they are well off educated people with dual nationality their own country and uk and they recognise UK as strong and stable the giver of a well paid long term job and a passport and all the benefits that come from that .These people voted against Scottish independence 2014 and will likely do so again.
      There are hundreds of thousands of English people living in Scotland who don’t want England reduced to a little country with a border to Scotland and a border to Wales and a government that only controls England they like England presented to the world as it is now, an island stretching from lands end to john o groats with a government that speaks for all the people even those who don’t want it to speak for them ,they like the colonisers life the feeling of superiority and power.These people voted against Scottish independence in 2014 and will do so again.
      A group smaller than any of those above will possibly change from NO to YES and they are Labour voters who have always thought of the SNP as a right wing Tory party in kilts , I think they are gradually changing and seeing just how bad the situation has become for Scotland.
      Nicola Sturgeon has gone a long way to improve the chances of this group changing.

    40. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      I’d be surprised if we don’t see any more court action, possibly by the ScotGov itself.

    41. yesindyref2 says:

      Hey bigot, GTF.

    42. Dr Jim says:

      Remember Scots are not genetically programmed to make decisions, Labour’s Johaan Lamont told us that just before she stuck the kitchen knife into the back of her own party by exposing it as the branch office of London

      Len McCluskey doesn’t want another referendom on the EU because he knows like Jeremy Corbyn that sets a precedent for another referendum in Scotland and Labour don’t want that just as the Tories don’t, but Jeremy’s problem with a GE is that he can’t win one and would need somebody to prop him up

      It can’t be the DUP and it can’t be the Lib Dems (not enough of them) so who does he depend on….Oh no it’s us

      It’s all lose lose for Yoonworld and they don’t know how to deal with it except to cross their collective fingers and hope Theresa May can rub it all better before anybody has to make a decision

      Maybe she’ll bomb us, I know she’d like to

    43. K1 says:

      I second that GTF. Wouldn’t soil ma eyes by even reading a single sentence the bigot writes.

      Get in the sea.

    44. auld highlander says:

      Have you wondered how much this brexit shambles is costing?

      There is no ‘Brexit dividend’. According to new CER analysis, Brexit is now damaging the public finances by £440 million a week.

      https://www.cer.eu/insights/whats-cost-brexit-so-far

    45. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      yesindyref2 at 9.57

      Yes. We are very cleverly gathering the huge legal right to decide our own destiny and making it more and more difficult for the UK to stand in front of the civilised world and deny us.

    46. Macart says:

      @Robert Peffers

      (cough) 😉

      Many roads Robert. Many roads.

    47. Street Andrew says:

      Doesn’t, of course, prevent Scottish Tory MPs (if they can be bothered to turn up) supporting the May disaster plan.

    48. Bobp says:

      Welsh sion 7.20pm. Mebyon kernow.never heard of them, although i know kernow means cornwall. Cant see them picking up too many votes from all those london holiday home owners.

    49. Bobp says:

      Yesindyref2. 9.59pm And will you tell him to GTF when he’s proved right in indyref2?.

    50. Rock says:

      Whether Brexit happens or not, two things are absolutely certain, in my humble opinion.

      1. Westminster will not grant a Section 30 order for a legally binding independence referendum before 2640 AD.

      2. Nicola will not dare hold an independence referendum without a Section 30 order from Westminster.

    51. yesindyref2 says:

      @Bobp
      I’ll tell any bigot to GTF, and you? Bobp?

    52. Mary McCabe says:

      As far as the Scottish electorate are concerned we’re in a much more hopeful position than we were prior to 2014.

      The scales have fallen from so many eyes. Nobody now imagines we’re in an equal partnership with England. Everybody realises that where Scotland’s interests don’t coincide with those of England’s ours are routinely suppressed. More are realising that the UK Government’s intentions towards us can be malevolent.

      However (unlike Norway when it had its indy campaign at the start of the 20th century or Slovakia at the end of the 20th century) we’re dealing with a post-imperial state which doesn’t even pay lip-service to the principle of self-determination. And we see from the example of Catalonia that lip-service is all the UN, EU and other international groups pay to that principle.

      So how do we achieve indyref2 (which we would probably now win well)? Or how do we get indy without it?

      Having the pro-indy MPs stand on a ticket of UDI would just give us another moral mandate. We’ve already got several of these, which WM ignores.

      It takes two sides to “negotiate for independence” and they won’t even meet us or read our emails. UDI is never recognised by the rest of the world. And without a written constitution WM can define “illegal” to suit its own interests.

      The danger is that only a minority of folk are passionately interested in politics. Even if the electorate see that indy is best for Scotland, if WM keeps denying us that right(however unfairly)they may sink back into apathy. Turnout at elections will fall, emigration will rise and our population will fall.

      The only possible strategy I can think of would be to have our pro-indy MPs disrupt their revered House of Commons. Constant filibustering, constant walkouts. The media would call it childish and we’d lose votes from those who would rather be respectable than free. It would be a long slow process. But it might work in the end.

    53. galamcennalath says:

      OT Attitudes to …. football ….

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uIy100tZd0

      These Irish guys are spot on with their humorous sketches on various subjects, especially political.

      The way England looks at the performance of its national team could be applied to a lot of things …. dare I suggest Brexit too?

    54. Kangaroo says:

      Simple fix Part 1

      Dear Mr Tusk,

      As you are aware the Kingdom of Scotland is in a Union with the Kingdom of England and the nations voted differently in the 2016 UK EU Referendum. We are therefore taking this opportunity to advise you that the Kingdom of Scotland desires to be treated as the Continuing Member State in the event that our partner in Union, the Kingdom of England, proceeds with its prior determination to withdraw from the European Union. We can assure you that we have taken the necessary steps to ensure that we continue to comply with the EU acquis in all regards.

      Further, should the Kingdom of England decide to remain a member of the EU as a result of their constitutional process, we would expect that as the UK Government has already acknowledged the Scottish people’s Sovereignty, and to choose their own form of government in the recent Claim of Right motion agreed unanimously in the UK Parliament, it follows that the EU should also recognise the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England as separate Sovereign member states.

      Looking forward to a positive response.

      Kind Regards

      The People of
      The Kingdom of Scotland

    55. Welsh Sion says:

      For Bobp @ 10:13pm

      https://www.mebyonkernow.org/

    56. Rock says:

      Because just hours earlier, the Welsh Senedd had done the same on behalf of the people of Wales, by a margin of more than two to one.

      In other words, betrayed the people of Wales – they voted for Brexit.

    57. Bobp says:

      DMH .10.02 I hope to god you are right dave and we can do it legally. Because i’ll never have any faith in the deep state letting go of their Scottish cash cow in a “referendum”.

    58. Bobp says:

      So someone expressing a valid opinion makes them a bigot.Aye right ?yesindyref2?.

    59. yesindyref2 says:

      @Bobp
      Are you anti-English as well Bobp? Or pretendning to be?

    60. Legerwood says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 21.40

      Would not disagree with you on that.

    61. Golfnut says:

      @Robert Peffers.

      You could well be right Robert.

    62. Bobp says:

      Yesindyref2.as you’ll have seen from my previous posts. My wifes English, my daughters English. Been married over 30yrs. So it makes me wonder why you would insinuate that i’m anti english….ulterior motive maybe? Esssennpeeebad maybe?

    63. yesindyref2 says:

      @Bobp
      What I would wonder is why someone living in Dorset would support someone who wants to ban the English and other foreign people, people actually resident in Scotland, from voting about something which intensely concerns them as – they live here.

      Do you support such a divisive attitude? One which could lose YES votes in Scotland?

      Well, do you, Bobp?

    64. Sarah says:

      @Mary McCabe at 10.28: as one of the two signatories to the Treaty of Union, Scotland can surely withdraw from the treaty? It is very different from a unilateral declaration of independence. Scotland was independent in 1707 and signing a treaty doesn’t normally change that state of being.

      Therefore imh and optimistic opinion, international law, the UN etc and etc would have no problem with recognising Scotland as a country. [Not that I speak as a lawyer of any kind – but it looks a correct view in common sense.]

      It would help if there was a vote of some kind which showed a majority supporting a Scottish Government taking a separate line from England. Something like – oh, off the top of my head, 62% Remain in EU…

    65. Robert Peffers says:

      @Terence callachan says: 5 December, 2018 at 9:55 pm:

      ” … Even with all that has happened over the last few years it will be a close call.”

      Rather long winded racist rant, Terrance, but if I had the choice of one of those foreign oil/gas workers and a racist like you as my next door neighbour I’d choose the foreign oil/gas worker. There is, perhaps only one thing worse than a racist and that is a sectarian racist.

    66. Robert Peffers says:

      Breaking: Scottish Parliament – 3 hours ago:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICg5p2vh-Kw

    67. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 22:42,

      His opinion is heavily coloured by having non-resident English family who are (by his own accounts) on the – ahem – moronic side of the indy debate. Being non-resident himself, he has likely never encountered anyone of those good folk from English for Indy, so we might suspect that his attitude in this regard is not based on particularly sound experience.

    68. doug_bryce says:

      So basically everyone thinks its a shite plan except the Scottish Tories ?

    69. Thepnr says:

      Looks like the chances of a General Election have just receded and the prospects of No deal have increased.

      https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/brexit/news/100355/dup-confirm-they-will-back-theresa-may-confidence-vote-if

      The DUP won’t accept May’s deal in any form as it means a border in the Irish Sea, their preference then is for No Deal as they would support May in any vote of no confidence as of course would the Brexiteers and most likely even the Remainers in the Tory party.

      All we’re left with then is No Deal or another referendum combined with revocation of Article 50 which will require at least 10 Tory remainers to overcome the Tory/DUP majority plus as many again as needed to match any Labour leavers that won’t support a second vote under any circumstances.

      All a bit of a pickle then and the stakes have just been raised.

    70. Bobp says:

      Yesindyref2. 10.55pm. Ive never said anything about banning eu nationals from voting in a Scottish indy2 referendum. You can talk till the cows come home about converting english incomers to voting for Scottish independence. 2/3 maybe out of 10 will. The other 7/8 wont vote against the mother country. So that makes me a bigot for stating the obvious does it?. Foreign nationals have to reside in catalonia for 5 yrs before voting in elections.eu nationals were barred from voting in the eu referendum.did that make the tories bigots.Wake up and smell the coffee ffs.

    71. yesindyref2 says:

      @Bobp
      So from your comment to me earlier, you support such as this:

      There are a lot of workers from overseas in the oil and gas industry in Scotland . . .

      There are hundreds of thousands of English people living in Scotland who don’t want England reduced to a little country . . .

      and want to ban them from voting in our Independence Referendum, here in Scotland, with a franchise of those who are resident here.

      Well do you, Bobp?

      Any other groups you want to ban from voting Bobp?

      Perhaps “liebor” members and voters, Bobp?

      Perhaps you’d like to ban all those who voted NO in 2014, well would you Bobp?

      Would you be happy if it wasn’t legal whatever that means (perhaps violence) as in your “I hope to god you are right dave and we can do it legally

      Well, would you Bobp?

    72. Bobp says:

      Rjs.11.08. Oh myself and family met and spoke to a lot of decent English for indy people when we travelled from dorset to glasgow last may, and Edinburgh for the indy marches you snidey pr**k. The fact is the 7/8 out of 10 will vote against it. So you and your troll pal away and ram yerselves.

    73. Bobp says:

      Yesindyref2.9.55pm “who dont want england reduced to a little country”. This was’nt my quote you pr**k. Try TC’S post at 9.55.And stop lying.

    74. Proud Cybernat says:

      Fairly sure I heard today on BBC R2 (Vine show) that Sinn Fein supports May’s deal. And I think I can understand why they would.

    75. Cubby says:

      Mary Mc Cabe@10.28pm

      “Having the pro Indy MPs stand on a ticket of UDI…….”

      Sorry but the nature of Scotlands status is such that terminating the Treaty of Union is not UDI. UDI can never be the correct term to use. If England terminated the treaty do you think England would call it England declares UDI from Scotland.

      UDI is terminology the Britnats want us to use as it implies something illegal.

    76. cynicalHighlander says:

      Bobp says:

      Foreign nationals have to reside in catalonia for 5 yrs before voting in elections.

      Um who set those rules the Catalan government or the Facist Spannish one?

    77. yesindyref2 says:

      @Bobp “Yesindyref2.9.55pm “who dont want england reduced to a little country”. This was’nt my quote you pr**k. Try TC’S post at 9.55.And stop lying.

      From your posting earlier

      ————-
      @Bobp says: 5 December, 2018 at 10:21 pm

      Yesindyref2. 9.59pm And will you tell him to GTF when he’s proved right in indyref2?.
      ————-

      No, you didn’t say “who dont want england reduced to a little country”, I never said you did, TC said that, but you implicitly support him with your reply when you criticise me for elling him to GTF, and suggest he will be right in indyref2.

      And in answer to your other question, or assertion, I vote SNP, still, last time I voted Labour at all was, well, over 10 years ago if not longer, and that was as many do, to get a Labour rather than a Tory.

      Now, did you actually answer any of my questions? Do you want me to repeat them for you?

    78. Bobp says:

      Cynical highlander. They voted for indy though (or would have) .

    79. Bobp says:

      Who dont want england reduced to a little country” you implied it, now goodnight and f… off

    80. Ken500 says:

      It’s a bit weird someone who stays in the south wants to stop people voting in an IndyRef. Would do they want to be banned from voting in elections/Ref etc. There are only 2% of NO voters from the south. 9% of the pop. Under 16s can’t vote, Some voted Yes. Some didn’t vote. Some voted NO. It was the folk born in Scotland who majority voted NO. Even if it was because they were told lies and made false promises.

      It was 4 years ago. Forget it. Just get in with the next one. Convince one other person. It’s done.

    81. yesindyref2 says:

      @Bobp
      Let me make it easier for you, since you seem not to understand the flow of comment and reply in this thread, and haven’t answered ANY of my questions:

      1. Do you think bigots should GTF?
      2. Are you anti-English Bobp?
      3. Or pretending to be anti-English?
      4. Do you support such a divisive attitude?
      5. One which could lose YES votes in Scotland?
      6. Would you like to ban English residents in Scotland from voting in Scotland’s Independence referendum?
      7, Would you like to ban “foreign workers” from voting in Scotland’s Independence referendum?
      8. Any other groups you want to ban from voting Bobp?
      9. Would you like to ban “liebor” members and voters from voting in Indy Ref 2 Bobp?
      10. Would you like to ban all those who voted NO in 2014?

      and lastly

      11. Would you be happy if it wasn’t legal whatever that means (perhaps violence) to gain Independence for democratic Scotland?

    82. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Bobp @ 23:25:

      The fact is the 7/8 out of 10 will vote against it.

      That’s not a fact, it’s an unsubstantiated assertion masquerading as more. Coupled with a quite unnecessary outburst of rudeness, a sure sign of someone losing an argument. All of which only goes to further reinforce my point. Thanks!

      But if you can back up your brash statement with cold hard fact, big boy: PROVE IT!

      (Though I expect instead you’ll just have to bluster or duck.)

    83. Daisy Walker says:

      Cat amongst the pigeons…

      There were 2 signatures to the Treaty of Union…

      If I were a business person in England, facing No Deal Brexit or Terrible May’s Brexit – both of which outcomes – take mainland Britain out of the ECJ jurisdiction (and therefore protect the rich pricks tax havens) and mean the UK will have to adopt pretty much all of the EUs rules and regs, without a place at the table, and without a frictionless trade agreement – i.e. still have to get outgoing exports checked at customs, unlike the stuff from the EU coming in.

      I’d be miffed, upset, probably facing bankruptcy, or at the very least a great big uphill struggle in business terms, compared to what exists now.

      And if, under those conditions, someone whispered in my ear, that under the terms of the Treaty of Union, that another part of the UK is now being treated differently and receiving different trading terms and conditions… and that this breached the terms and conditions of the Treaty of Union, and therefore meant, from an EU perspective, that the deal Terrible May has negotiated is Not Constitutional!!! I rather think, I’d be picking up the phone to my lawyer in a hurry.

      Because, as many of you will have noticed, the recent AG (EU version) stated that the UK could cancel its withdrawal application – as long as it was done in a legally constitutionally way for that country…

      I would suggest that for this to be the case, it makes the opposite also valid, any deal for withdrawing from the EU, must also be legally constitutional, within the UK guidelines. No where in the Brexit negotiations, or Referendum, or indeed the Scottish Indy Ref1 – was permission granted to tear up the Treaty of Union and replace it with flavour of the week.

      Now, some of you are going to say, but, there is no written Constitution in the UK. And while this is correct, the EU is not demanding that there be one, it recognises that a vote in the HoC or a Referendum result would do.

      Brexit breaches the Treaty of Union – not just for the Scots, but for the English too, and they are just as entitled to pursue legal rectification about this, as the Scots are.

      Interesting – don’t you think? Or shall we talk about where people were born again.

      For the record, I was born in England, but you’d never know;))))

      Cheerie.

    84. Robert Peffers says:

      @cynicalHighlander says: 5 December, 2018 at 11:39 pm:

      ” … Bobp says:
      Foreign nationals have to reside in catalonia for 5 yrs before voting in elections.
      Um who set those rules the Catalan government or the Facist Spannish one?”

      Oh! Give it a rest. In the first place please stop attempting to compare the Spain/Catalonia situation to the Kingdom of Scotland/Kingdom of England situation.

      Catalonia’s legal relationship to the Country of Spain is totally different from the bipartite Scottish/English kingdoms in a union.

      Now who is it that officially says that?

      Oh! Aye!

      Now I remember:- it is/was the Spanish Government’s official statement made by their Prime Minister, (or whatever their hecht heid bummer is called).

    85. Daisy Walker says:

      And another thing.

      We need to talk about Lizzie.

      Tis Big Lizzies job to stand up for the Sovereign People of Scotland, its in the job description.

      And she’s failing miserably.

      I realise it has never been done before… but does anyone know if the mechanics exist for it to be done now/

      Mr Peffers, calling Mr Peffers. One for you I suspect.

      That’s me for noo. Cheerie tae all of you.

    86. yesindyref2 says:

      @Daisy Walker (there’s a clue there 🙂 “I would suggest that for this to be the case, it makes the opposite also valid, . . .

      Indeed, and I commented elsewhere that much of the AG’s opinion could have been written by Wingers. Perhaps he reads Wings …

    87. Daisy Walker says:

      Big Lizzie Too

      The Power to Negotiate Brexit obo the UK, lies at Westminster

      Sovereignty at Westminster obo England, Wales and NI, is out on loan to them from Big Lizzie.

      The People of Scotland are Sovereign and its Big Lizzies job to stand up for that principle.

      Right just now the Crown has the biggest conflict of interest – given the way the people of both countries have voted in the Brexit Ref.

      It really is the most almighty Constitutional crisis I would suggest. Bigger that Charlie’s ears.

      Anyway, that really is me for the night. Cactus… night night.

    88. geeo says:

      @cubby re: UDI

      Totally with you on that, Scotland does not satisfy the definition of UDI, and nor would we ever want to.

      To have UDI is to admit Scotland is a REGION looking to ‘break away from a greater ‘state’ or country.

      We are neither and nor should we ever wish to be.

      We are looking to DISSOLVE the Union (and since the Uk is a union of Scotland and England ONLY, we would also be dissolving the United Kingdom).

      We have way better option anyway.

    89. Cactus says:

      Night night Daisy, good morning Scotland (fmq’s today)

      Sweet iScotland dreams… 🙂

    90. geeo says:

      Apologies if mentioned elsewhere today, but i just read elsewhere that the rabid, anti SNP, swivel eyed Britnat aslef train driving nutter, was infact subject to an article on this very site a few years ago.

      Hi Tom, hya pal…https://wingsoverscotland.com/knockout-stages-extended/

    91. ben madigan says:

      @ Proud Cybernat says:
      5 December, 2018 at 11:34 pm
      “Fairly sure I heard today on BBC R2 (Vine show) that Sinn Fein supports May’s deal. And I think I can understand why they would.”

      May’s deal is OK for ireland – the Dublin govt set out to get a backstop and got one.

      The whole country (north and south) – whatever political persuasion (except the DUP and other Unionist parties)was behind them.
      We had silence from all sides (no criticism of what the Govt was doing,no recriminations etc).
      The irish Govt knew they couldn’t bring back some half-baked compromise (Michael Collins had already done that and look at the trouble that followed).

      Together with their “gallant allies in Europe” they achieved what ireland wanted – at least in the Withdrawal Agreement.

      I can foresee more demands if the UK-EU negotiations ever get off the ground ( after the UK is out of the EU) on the framework Agreement (Political Declaration)

    92. Dr Jim says:

      Watch the Alex Salmond show where a Tory man muses that the SNP will be offered a coalition partnership with the Tories in a government of National emergency under the Premiership of David Lidington

      I’ll stick my chin out a little and say has that man been eating Maryjane biscuits

    93. yesindyref2 says:

      @geeo / @Cubby
      I can’t find it at the moment, but there was an article / reference / book with Wolffe in it dating back to the 90s, where it was said he was desperate to bring some constitutional question to court. So as far back as that, the guy’s been upforit. Incidentally his wife is or has been a Senator in the Court of Sessions. I did find this in my bookmarks:

      http://www.journalonline.co.uk/Preview/1014185.aspx#.WfmN85Cny2d

      For the moment, we’re waiting for hopefully the AG’s opinion to become a ruling, and the UKSC appeal to be ruled on, and then it’s wait and see what happens next – if anything. Hence why I didn’t respond to Cubby’s question a couple of days back.

      It interests me that Keen is always angry and Wolffe is always smiling 🙂

    94. yesindyref2 says:

      Robert Peffers might like this bit, by the way:

      As to such birth Professor Walker had observed: “The proper understanding of the legal nature of the Union is that it was an agreement made in 1706-07, not by the parliaments of Scotland and England, but by commissioners appointed by the heads of the executive of the independent states of Scotland and England (both of which offices were then vested in Queen Anne, but acting in different capacities). The agreement was stated in 25 articles, signed and sealed by almost all of each set of commissioners, with a copy being presented by each set to Queen Anne and accepted by her with warm thanks, in both her capacities. … Neither parliament had participated in discussing the terms and conditions of the agreement.” (Emphasis added.)

      which also appears though not so explicitly on articles on the BBC website, starting here:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/acts_of_union_01.shtml

    95. yesindyref2 says:

      A lot if not all of that BBC material by the way comes from Professor Allan I. Macinnes.

      https://www.strath.ac.uk/staff/macinnesallanprofessor/

      Eine Kleine Nacht Lesung!

    96. yesindyref2 says:

      People might want to read and archive that BBC material by the way, just in case it accidentally gets deleted …

    97. Hearstupwards says:

      In an effort to sell Brexit this morning on Radio BBC Scotland some idiot, I never caught his name, being interviewed (approx. 05.50am), stated that one of the benefits of Brexit would be that parliament will have the power to keep Scotland as part of the UK. Didn’t catch the female interviewers name either but she did say that the statement was controversial, he blundered on with his brainfarting and she never returned to query the statement.

    98. Ken500 says:

      The SNP are now getting referenced in with any kind of obscure, absurd scenarios now May and the Tories want their vote. The unionists trying keep their privileges. Mundell has lost the plot completely.

      Nicola would never support the Tories in Westminster unless it supported Independence.

      Not much talk of taking back the powers now. The SNP are the only Party in Westminster opposing the Tories. They are now the only opposition Party. People in the UK are looking to them to be the opposition. Labour have capitulated. Another own goal from Corbyn.

      Labour are a waste of time and space. More worried about their own privileges than the state of the economy. That’s to be expected. Corbyn stayed in a Party for over thirty years of whom he disagreed with every major decision. Instead of going off and doing something useful. Dugdale tells supporters to vote Tory. Ensuring they lose power at Westminster. What a shower. Complete imbeciles. Sanctionig and starving people, They should hang their heads in shame. The total chaos they have created.

    99. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Can someone archive the BBC Shortbreid interview of Prof John Curtice by Haley Miller at 07:55hrs.

      Tried a Scotland not any more liberal on immigration than rest of the UK line but ended up with a Scottish BritNats MORE Anti Immigration than those South of the border

    100. Macart says:

      Huh! Just catching up on the Rev’s TF and spotted this:

      https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/1070489703055544320

      Labour thinking of backing down from their prior big talk of no confidence votes. It won’t matter what they do tbh. It does serve to underline a point on the nature of the beast though and the state it finds itself in. Neither they or their less than honourable opposition are fit to govern any damn thing.

      They may change their mind on that. They may not (shrugs). The point being they’re still playing politics whilst the house burns down around their ears. If ever one of them actually comes out on top and when they stand up to look around, they may find that all they have left to badly govern is a pile of ashes.

    101. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Reference the Rev’s twitter feed. I cannot tell the Rev that Currie’s Red Kola does or does not contain artificial sweeteners, but, I can tell him: it is not as good, now it is produced in Glasgow, as it was when it was produced in Auchinleck, by a workforce which included legendary bookmaker Freddie Williams, and George Burley’s father.

    102. IZZIE says:

      Fluffy on GMS said colleagues should ‘listen to their constituents’ has noone told him we voted remain?

    103. Nana says:

      Farage leaves UKIP. Labour and conservative parties are broken. Scotland ignored and snubbed in Westminster Brexit debate.
      https://www.facebook.com/indycargordonross/videos/520843411726808/?t=0

      Dr Philippa wins award
      https://twitter.com/UKPatchwork/status/1070409831935303692

      Check this out guys !! BBC Pravda lying their ass off again as this vote was described by Tory MSP Jackson Carlaw as a ‘meaningless vote’ NOT a ‘symbolic’ one…..yes time for independence and a new TV broadcaster.
      https://twitter.com/StephenMcKerro1/status/1070450733345050625

      Belittling the Scottish parliament.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyEzaEhgQxg&feature=youtu.be

    104. Nana says:

      https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2018/12/05/a-tory-mp-suggested-the-bbc-was-acting-as-theresa-mays-mouthpiece/

      Home Office criticised for ‘lack of urgency’ in Windrush scandal
      http://archive.is/sKCOj

      It is “very likely” that the UK voted for Brexit because of illegal overspending by the Vote Leave campaign, according to an Oxford professor’s evidence to the High Court.
      http://archive.is/qYo8X

      Back from 3 days in Brussels and another EU capital. One point worth emphasising: it’s hard to overstate how crap the backstop customs deal is for UK
      https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1070394040217231360

    105. Socrates MacSporran says:

      yesindyref2’s post @ 3.19am is a corker.

      If I am reading that correctly, the Act/Treaty of Union was a civil service botch job, done on behalf of Queen Anne of England, and Queen Anne of Scotland.

      In reality, the people of Scotland (and indeed the people of England) didn’t have a say in the matter. OK, we did not have democracy was we currently understand it back then, but, how the hell, given the democratic will of the Scottish people, as expressed in the original EU referendum, by an overwhelming maority – is for Scotland to remain in the EU – can England, which voted by a much smaller majority to leave, take us outside the EU.

      Since the two countries are so diametrically opposed on this issue, WHY can Scotland not withdraw from the Union, since, in this issue – the Union does not work for them.

      Taking Scotland out of the EU on England’s say-so has to be illegal under Scots Law – get into court SG and get this sorted.

    106. Nana says:

      The judgment in the Article 50 case will be issued at 9am Luxembourg time on 10 December 2018.
      https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1070593328792645632

      http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/12/05/raab-s-threats-to-ignore-the-grieve-amendment-threatens-cons

      https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/12/05/yesterday-was-useful-but-dont-underestimate-the-massive-challenges-the-uk-faces/

      RT Correspondent Manila Chan breaks down the second batch of documents released by hacktivist group Anonymous, revealing Britain’s smear campaign against Russia through interference in the domestic affairs of other EU countries. Manila explains how the UK created a “large-scale information secret service” in the EU, the US and Canada, with a think tank in London called the ‘Integrity Initiative’ project at the head of it. Natasha Sweatte is joined by former UK Member of Parliament, George Galloway, and Conservative Political Commentator, Ed Martin, to discuss the Russian witch hunt waged by the US and UK to distract citizens from the real issues at play.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-d5lkKlQnM&feature=youtu.be

    107. Hamish100 says:

      Sir…prof…curtice works for the state and any paper wishing a poll.

      Scotland just as racist as the English and Welsh just the SNP and Greens are better at persuading the population not to!!! Bbc encouraging him rounding ofthe issue as if it was fact. Cobblers.

    108. Proud Cybernat says:

      O/T

      Joanna Cherry QC MP
      ?
      Verified account

      10m10 minutes ago

      More Joanna Cherry QC MP Retweeted Jo Maugham QC
      BREAKING NEWS #CJEU will give final judgment in #Article50 case at 8am on Monday morning so our aim of ensuring MPs know revocation is possible before the #MeaningfulVote will be achieved. Thank to all who have supported us #Brexit #PeoplesVote

    109. wull2 says:

      With reference to DW post earlier.

      I would send a letter, she can only act on it or not, but she cant say she did not get a letter.
      Just a thought, when the People of Scotland send her a Christmas card they might like to remind her of this fact.

    110. Ken500 says:

      More BBC nonsense.

      England is the second most populated country in Europe. (because of Westminster policies)

      Scotland is half empty (because of Westminster policies). The Scottish population has stagnated because of Westminster centrist economic policies. Westminster unionists secretly and illegally take Scottish resources to fund London S/E.

      So of course, there are different attitudes to immigration. The Scots had to migrate all over the world. A 40million disaporia. Most Scottish families have relatives and relationship. All,over the world. Especially in US, Australia, NZ, Canada. Many Scots workers in the Oil industry spent times overseas. All over the world. Scottish invention changed the modern world.

      Scotland has friends all over the world. In Scotland migration is not see as a negative. Scotland needs some more people. Not to be held back. Or the population will stagnate further. Nothing wrong with that but Scotland has room for more people as the birth rate falls. In common with most European countries (without migration)

      Westminster, May, has cultivated a hostile attitude to migration. When in fact Westminster’spolicies caused the worst migration crisis in Europe since the 11WW. The illegal wars and economic policies. Westminster even manipulated the figures, including foreign students etc. Then allowed two years graduation study passes for Oxbridge, Bath and other unis but none for Scotland,

      Now there is a fall in EU citizens coming to the UK but an increase in people from the rest of the world. The migration into Europe would slow down if U.K./US France stopped bombing the Middle East to bits. Stopped supporting absolute, despot monarchies and apartheid States. Stopped supplying them with redundant weaponry.

      Trade and give aid. Imagine if the £Trns spent on illegal wars were spent helping people and stopping poverty. What a better place the world would be. Independence for Scotland could sort that bring about change, especially in the UK and the corruption at Westminster.

      Ian Blackford calling May out as a liar. Bercow the misognist bully trying to defend it. The people who say SNP presence in Westminster is a waste of time are mistaken.

      The X Factor winner has to leave without a visa. What a joke. Making £Millions for HMRC and tax evader Tory Cowell. What a mess. Tax evader Take That headlining.

    111. Breeks says:

      Seems quiet the morning, so gonna reference the Jeremy Vine show yesterday, where Vine had a debate between those parties who would be excluded from a TV debate between red and blue Tories. Stephen Gethins was there to represent the SNP.

      Hard to say what was edited out, it was BBC material, but the SNP really does need to stand in front of the mirror and practice saying the word “Sovereignty”.

      A Mr Angry from middle England phoned in to say Scotland had chosen to stay in the UK, so why should be allowed to overturn UK democracy and have a second EuroRef. In fairness, the spittle covered the whole guess list, Plaid Cymru, Lib Dem’s, Greens, DUP and Sinn Fein, because of course Mr Vine had lumped everyone together on the same gallows.

      How I ached to hear Mr Gethins say “Yes, but the people of Scotland are Sovereign and cannot have their democratically expressed will overturned”.

      Instead there was more waffle about how the SNP had tried every tool in the box to find compromise and had planted its firmly in no-man’s land before anybody else did. Sorry, but by the end of it, the only contribution which resonated with me was Mr Angry.

      The SNP is on a hiding to nothing to “rescue” a UK which yes, might need to be rescued from the unpardonable folly of Brexit, but absolutely doesn’t want to be.

      Get your eyes on the Prize and get the Constitutional Sovereignty of Scotland and the sovereign will of the Scottish people centre stage!!! The way the English are currently frothing at the mouth, they will jump up and down to pack our bags.

      Just show me a glimmer of light that the SNP, from Nicola, Mike Russell, Ian Blackford, Stephen Gethins, Pete Wishart, ANYBODY!!! Just once, give the UK regime in Westminster or on the BBC the wasp for the British Bulldog to chew on… “the People of Scotland are constitutionally Sovereign”.

    112. Boudicca says:

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17280181.eu-court-of-justice-announces-time-and-date-of-brexit-reversal-ruling/
      Just breaking – the ECJ ruling will be on Tuesday 11th December at 8.00 am. The day Before the meaningful vote. They certainly zoomed that through. Yay!!!!!

    113. Boudicca says:

      Sorry, I’m over excited! the ruling is Monday 10th December. Need more caffeine.

    114. Ken500 says:

      Some Pollsters are crooks working for the Hedge Funds. They have been censored and fined many times for bad methology, poor analysis and data collection. Illegally breaking data protection to try and swing the results. Illegal, donations and gerrynandering by them and their clients. They are all benefitting from it. Lining their pockets. An abuse of private and public monies. Just a total disgrace. They should be investigating Pollsters not using them as spokespeople.

      Why is Scottish taxpayers money being used by Unis to support this corruption. Affecting the education system. The Westminster unionists are cutting education funding. Pollsters employed by Unis are manipulating the results and being held up as experts. Expert gerrymanderers. Sanctionig and starving people. Breaking the professional code of conduct and wasting public money.

    115. Welsh Sion says:

      Underwhelming, I know, but stand by for the announcement of the new ‘Welsh’ Labour Leader (and probably our next First Minister) later on today, Thursday.

    116. Ken500 says:

      Don’t watch or listen to Jeremy Vine.

      He did not even think the ifficial wealth gap statistics in the UK was real. Unbelievable. This is a BBC correspondent. Another BBC unionist sychopant. Overpaid prima donna, Boring, too, He got a woman with obvious mental health problems jailed for under cutting him. Cycling.

    117. galamcennalath says:

      “War-gaming the Brexit vote: seven scenarios for what happens next “

      I think this covers all the possibilities concisely.

      I note it doesn’t mention the SNP in the context of seeking EEA, though.

      http://archive.is/nWuPl

    118. Golfnut says:

      @ DW

      Spot on.

      @Wull2

      Letters to the Crown are a bad idea.
      This would be much better raised in Parliament when hopefully the SNP MP’s start referencing the Treaty of Union, not the Acts.

    119. Macart says:

      @Proud Cybernat

      If the judgement follows the advice?

      Clear the decks for action. Anything could happen in the next half hour. 😎

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E06cNv55jTs

    120. Ken500 says:

      Another anti SNP tirade because they did not get a reply from two e-mails. The SNP the only Party standing up for Scotland. Would not like to see the state of Scotland without them. Unimaginable. Thanks goes every day to them and every voter who votes for them. Thanks a billion Rev Stu and Nana etc.

      It is ridiculous to use the only prominent Independence supporting website to bash the SNP. Especially with the establishment opposition the SNP is up against. People cutting off their nose to spite their face. With friends like these who needs enemies. Fifth columnists.

    121. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Mornin’ Nana. 🙂

      Peter over at Tarff in good form I see. That’s probably the second time I’ve cracked a smile this morning.

    122. Nana says:

      Morning Macart, It made me chuckle too.

      “Stuff the UK for a game of soldiers”

      and talking of ‘soldiers’ the Governor general Mundell will splutter somewhere in London later today
      https://twitter.com/Feorlean/status/1070608452031008768

    123. galamcennalath says:

      Nana says

      It is “very likely” that the UK voted for Brexit because of illegal overspending by the Vote Leave campaign, according to an Oxford professor’s evidence to the High Court.

      http://archive.is/qYo8X

      “A swing of just 634,751 people would have been enough to secure victory for Remain.
      …. I estimate that Vote Leave converted the voting intentions of over 800,000 voters in the final days of the campaign as a result of the overspend.”

      One expert. It does highlight, though, that there is a strong case for EURef to be declared invalid.

      Why has it taken this long for that to become clear? Why is it taking a private prosecution to get some action? Why did official electoral oversight do nothing?

      Looks to me like a much bigger conspiracy!

    124. Socrates MacSporran says:

      STEADY ON REV. CAMPBELL

      In your twitter feed this morning, you are having a go at Michael Grant, over his Times report on the Cosgrove red card.

      Mr Grant is a friend of mine. I happen to know, he is a staunch Aberdeen supporter, and makes no attempt to hide this allegiance.

      He is definitely not a member of the Lap Top Loyal.

    125. yesindyref2 says:

      @Socrates MacSporran
      There’s more – the Scottish Parliament didn’t dissolve itself, it was adjourned as we all know. But also it was “dissolved” by proclamation on Queen Anne’s commisioner’s command on the 29th April – 2 days before she actually ahd the authority to do so. Catch-22, the Union couldn’t come into being unless the Scottish Parliament was dissolved. It’s on that BBC website section somewhere I think.

      Basically speaking it appears the UK doesn’t actually exist.

    126. galamcennalath says:

      ” The probability of the UK remaining in the EU is now 40 per cent, according to economists at JP Morgan.

      They raised the likelihood of no Brexit from 20 per cent after the European Court of Justice’s advocate general said earlier this week that the UK could revoke Article 50 without the consent of the other EU states.”

      40% chance of no Brexit. Interesting assessment.

      http://archive.is/Lzr4K

    127. Terence callachan says:

      1)If you are Scottish and want Scottish independence you tend to believe that Scotland is deciding if it should resume its status as an independent country

      2)If you are an English person living in Scotland you do not consider yourself to be Scottish you consider yourself to be English you tend to think of Britain as a country and if asked for example when overseas on holiday where you are from will often say you are British.
      You do not see Scotland as resuming its status as an independent country you see Scotland as a part of Britain/UK and you see Scotland as trying to break up the family that’s why you think you deserve a vote on Scottish independence you don’t want the family broken up

      3)There are many Scottish people who see themselves as British and also see Scotland as trying to break away from Britain they too consider Britain/UK to be a family

      Theresa May often refers to Britain/ UK as one big family as did Cameron

      It’s as if groups (2) and (3) see Britain as a country and see Scotland as a part of that country and see Scotland wanting to break up that country.
      It’s as if they don’t consider Scotland to be an existing country.
      It’s as if they think Scottish independence would be Scotland starting a brand new country that had never existed before.

    128. Robert Peffers says:

      @Mary McCabe says: 5 December, 2018 at 10:28 pm:

      ” … Having the pro-indy MPs stand on a ticket of UDI would just give us another moral mandate. We’ve already got several of these, which WM ignores.”

      Mary, will you stop this claptrap about UDI?

      It is not legally possible for Scotland to declare UDI because the people of Scotland are legally sovereign and the Treaty of Union 1706/7 is a treaty between two, equally sovereign kingdoms.

      That is why it is called, THE UNITED KINGDOM.

      In order to legally agree such a treaty means that the two partner kingdoms are sovereign – it wouldn’t be a treaty unless both sides of a bipartite agreement acknowledged and respected each other’s sovereignty, it would be a forced takeover.

      Now the fact is that the Westminster Government did not contest the Scottish Claim of Right in the recent Westminster Supreme Court and that is a tacit acceptance of the sovereignty of the Kingdom of Scotland by Westminster.

      Now we have the ECJ ruling and that too confirms the people of Scotland are legally sovereign and a legally sovereign people cannot legally declare UDI.

      Quite simply a declaration of UDI would be an acknowledgement that The Kingdom of Scotland was leaving behind the United Kingdom when the fact is that Scotland is not leaving the United Kingdom – Scotland is dissolving the Treaty of Union in which Scotland is legally an equally sovereign partner.

      In law Scotland is NOT a subservient country to England in a Westminster that is the de facto parliament of England, (there is no legal parliament of England). Thus devolution splits the two partner United Kingdom up as Westminster being the de facto parliament of the country of England that has illegally assumed itself the master race and has devolved the sovereign powers of the COUNTRY of England to three subservient dominion countries.

      However, the UNITED KINGDOM is legally a two partner union of kingdoms not a quadratic union of four COUNTRIES ruled over by the COUNTRY of England.

      Which is exactly what the recent Westminster Supreme Court ruling has proved and then the Scots took the matter to, “The World Court”, (The ECJ).

      Now the ECJ looks very much likely to confirm the People of Scotland are indeed legally sovereign and thus, if they declared UDI, they would be destroying their own case by declaring themselves legally subservient to Westminster and acknowledging that Westminster was their legal superior.

      The fact is that every time a Westminster elected person refers to the United Kingdom as, “The Country”, they are telling a lie.

      The United Kingdom is exactly what it claims to be, “on the tin”, it is a two partner United KINGDOM.

    129. Terence callachan says:

      SIR John Curtis was on radio LBC this morning giving his views on what it is
      to be English and
      what it is for English people living in England to be British and
      What it is for Scottish people living in Scotland to be British

      Unfortunately he didn’t say what his views are on what it is
      To be Scottish or
      What it is for English people living in Scotland to be British or
      What it is for Scottish people living in Scotland to be British or
      What it is for Scottish people living in England to be Scottish
      Or Scottish people living in England to be British

      He did say it’s all to do with people’s views on immigration
      Whether they like to control how many foreigners get to come to UK and how many get chucked out
      He didn’t mention windrush
      He didn’t mention the thousands and thousands of EU citizens being sent threatening letters by the British home office telling them they may have to leave UK

    130. Nana says:

      Follow up to earlier link at 8.33am

      Joanna cherry says
      I’ve just informed @HouseofCommons that #CJEU will issue final judgment in #Art50 case at 8 am on Monday & asked if Secretary of State for @DExUKgov will make a statement to the House thereafter. I’ll be submitting an Urgent Question
      https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1070615824413671425

      http://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2018/12/facebook-docs-reveal-dirty-tricks.html

      Molly Scott Cato MEP.
      https://badboysofbrexit.com/

      NoDealBrexit has now officially been given the status of a natural disaster
      https://twitter.com/BrexitBin/status/1070432808752025600

    131. Macart says:

      Mmmm. If the ECJ ruling follows the AG’s advice some folk have one or two uncomfortable questions to answer. Over to the Conservative and Labour parties. Oh, and their chooms in the meeja.

      Why didn’t they pursue this avenue and why weren’t people made aware of the possibility until the 11th hour? That sorta thing. There are a lot of other questions and points you could add and to be frank they’d be mostly rhetorical.

      The answers they’d likely offer should be good though.

    132. Bill says:

      Another Robert Educational Beat Down: Mary, will you stop this claptrap about UDI?

      1. It isn’t your place to tell people to stop anything.
      2. If Mary believes in a UDI then that’s her belief.

      I’d call a Holyrood #indyref2 and based on a Yes majority call a National Assembly then take a UDI to Brussels and UN.

      Otherwise they’re going to walk up and down your arses for another 30 years.

    133. yesindyref2 says:

      @Macart
      There’s a strong possibility there won’t be enough popcorn to go round, even with the merciful intervention of the trans-galactic garble-blaster.

    134. Craig P says:

      I salute your restraint, Rev, in managing to hold off until now with the Pistols reference.

    135. Macart says:

      @yesindyref2

      Timing couldn’t be more perfect and the meeja thought Monday humiliating for the PM. If the ECJ ruling does follow the advice? Ms May and the meeja might need to rethink their definition of the word. 🙄

    136. Luigi says:

      Next week is certainly gearing up to be a whopper. Perfect mega shit storm brewing on the horizon. Get your popcorn supplies topped up, and batten down the hatches. What a time to be alive. 🙂

    137. yesindyref2 says:

      @Macart
      Mmm, the UK is built on a house of cads. Take away the Aces and all that’s left is knaves and bounders.

    138. Macart says:

      @yesindyref2

      ‘house of cads’? Intentional or not, that wins the internet today. 😀

    139. DerekM says:

      @ Welsh Sion

      We are going to bring this whole UK catastrophe crashing down hope you Welsh are ready and if you guys want an angle to use try using English parliamentary sovereignty and how it really should be English sovereignty,try and explain the difference between them and how they really can take back control by removing parliamentary sovereignty and taking ownership of individual sovereignty,it could be your ticket out of UK or English principality status as i think your sovereignty got hi jacked by parliament,break that and…see the light at the end of the tunnel.

      Its actually quite a sad situation in the 21st century when you think about it and one that any real leader who cared about people would end immediately if they could.

    140. Luigi says:

      yesindyref2 says:

      6 December, 2018 at 9:31 am

      Basically speaking it appears the UK doesn’t actually exist.

      Of course it doesn’t. Only in the minds of BritNats and cringers, but that’s the issue. The UK does not like written rules – difficult to fudge deals and weasel out of difficult situations. Well, with all the recent court actions, Nicola and her team have played a blinder. Effectively, all the WM constitutional fudge and assumed sovereignty is coming to an end. The BritNat establishment is running out of options – it is now nay impossible to use the preferred option (bluff and bluster) to deal with the coming shitstorm. Slowly, but surely, all those get-out-of-jail cards have been torn up. Soon, rubber will hit the road and some very difficult decisions will need to be made by the BritNats (and their compliant media). It’s a no-win situation for them (hence all this pathetic prevarication), but they are running out of track, and those sovereign buffers ain’t going anywhere. Folks, this ain’t going to be pretty – it really ain’t. However, thanks to the considered actions of the Scottish government, at least in Scotland there will be a well-illuminated escape route from disaster. 🙂

    141. yesindyref2 says:

      🙂

    142. wull2 says:

      Every time the PM goes to speak all but 2 SNP members should walk out, if its good enough for other party’s to do his, its good enough for the SNP.

    143. Nana says:

      Watch as Stewart Hosie questioning Hammond on the backstop agreement

      video
      https://twitter.com/DavidvanRooyen/status/1070325826435063808

    144. Abulhaq says:

      Whether in or out of the EU it is all about what England wants. The arrogance of our ‘partner in Union’ is paraded daily via media. Those who just dont get it must literally be dopes.

    145. yesindyref2 says:

      This is an interesting one as it shows May saying one thing, but Mundell another, and it’s the BBC doing it:

      https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1070599598106927106

      “In Scotland, @DavidMundellDCT stresses no deal as default if PM’s deal rejected. Across UK, @theresa_may says it’s her deal, no deal or no Brexit ? #bbcgms #r4today”

      That’s gotta hurt 🙂

    146. Gerry says:

      UDI does have it’s use in the correct circumstance. If for example Scotland wanted to pre-empt a post referendum legal challenge from WM designed to stall progression to independence following a positive referendum outcome (absent any variance of Sch 5 of the Scotland Act), then UDI declared 10 minutes before the polls opened in a referendum would not be a bad tactic at all.

      Ensuring that a default position for Scotland was independence has nothing whatsoever to do with any admission of legal subservience to WM.

    147. Proud Cybernat says:

      I think I am coming to agreeing with Breeks on the need for Scotland to press our ‘sovereignty button’.

      And I think this because IF Scotland meekly follows the UK out of the EU WITHOUT pressing our ‘sovereignty button’ (our veto, if you like) then that will set a precedent which could fatally undermine Scotland’s sovereign rights in future. So YES – let’s pursue this through the Courts. We’re a sovereign people who exercised our sovereign will to REMAIN within the EU.

      So let’s tell the UK Gov loudly and proudly: “You lot can leave if you want to, but Scotland’s not for turning our backs on our European friends. See you in court.”

    148. Nana says:

      Question from @joannaccherry to the UK Secretary of State about #Article50 #Brexit

      https://twitter.com/pilaraymara/status/1070638198550876163

    149. Nana says:

      Ronnie Cowan says

      During #Brexit questions, this morning, I asked the Secretary of State whether the UK Govt would respect the vote of the Scottish Parliament to reject the deal on the table. No surprise the Sec of State completely dodged the question.
      Still Better Together?
      https://twitter.com/ronniecowan/status/1070629892813930496

    150. Shinty says:

      Proud Cybernat – yes, me too. Sovereignty is key to dissolving the union – none of this UDI nonsense or ‘now is not the time’ bullshit.

    151. ronnie anderson says:

      Proud Cybernat {So YES – let’s pursue this through the Courts.} So what Courts should be the arbitrator of our inalienable rights as a Sovereign People .

    152. Breeks says:


      Luigi says:
      6 December, 2018 at 10:39 am
      yesindyref2 says:

      6 December, 2018 at 9:31 am

      Basically speaking it appears the UK doesn’t actually exist…

      The UK exists. What doesn’t exist is it’s Constitutional legitimacy.

    153. DerekM says:

      @ Proud Cybernat

      Exactly.

      I also advocate us showing the people of England where to find their own button,call it a departing gift love from Scotland to the English people.

      Be up to them if they choose to use it or not but why if you had the chance would you not grasp the ability to become the employer and not the employee of politicians.

    154. galamcennalath says:

      Solihull Conservative Julian Knight says it’s now clear that they have to vote for Theresa May’s deal or Brexit may be cancelled.

      He means cancellation is a threat.

      To most people now, cancellation would be an early Christmas!

    155. gus1940 says:

      Who says that there is no central coordination of the MSM?

      While yesterday’s Ian Blackford QT episode was covered in all the news channels last night a perusal of the front pages of today’s metropolitan blats shows not a trace of said event.

    156. Proud Cybernat says:

      “…what Courts should be the arbitrator of our inalienable rights as a Sovereign People.”

      I would think it is within the EU Court’s competence to determine whether (or not) the people of Scotland’s inalienable sovereign right to remain part of the EU is being subverted by the UK.

    157. Galamcennalath

      Ian Blackford was played – in all his splendour accusing T May inadvertently ( but not rescinding the word ‘perhaps’) – on BBC R4 early this morning, and before midnight last night on the parliament round up programmme.

      A couple of other very interesting items on the Today programme this a.m.

      About 5.50, there was a short item about the effect Brexit would have on West Coast seafood fishermen. There are 1,400 boats on the West Coast who cast creels for prawns lobsters, langoustines etc. If they land the catch by 6pm, it an be in Boulogne market within 18 hours and from their it goes to the restaurant tables of Europe.

      4 Langoustines in Barcelona can sell for £60.00 but in London, £12.00, so for them Brexit will ’cause meltdown’.
      When quizzed if they were against it the fisherman replied yes and commented that there was too much ‘self interest’ going on with the fishermen on the East Coast.

      He then went on to say that we had to share the seas with our European fishermen as they had families to feed and businesses to run and the West Coast men are all in favour of sharing the catch ——- NOT something that will be repeated during prime time bulletins I’ll bet.

      Lots of comment about T. May now being pressurised to cancel the vote on Tuesday because her advisors feel she will lose by a large majority and it could bring down the Government. Talk of her going to Europe on the 13th to ask for a Postponement of Brexit.

      Raises an interesting point that the ability to revoke Art. 5o has the condition that it must not be used as a means to negotiate a better deal.

      Definitely running scared now, DUP will back the Gov.in a No confidence vote so long as the backstop has been removed.

      Sammy Davis said that if there was a no deal Brexit there would not be a hard border between the two parts of Ireland. Can that be correct/ how does that work?

      If there is a no deal Brexit surely there has to be a land border between the two irelands???

    158. Nana says:

      Judgment will be handed down at 9.30am in Courtroom 1 on Thursday 13 December in the case of the UK Withdrawal from the European Union (Legal Continuity) (Scotland) Bill – A Reference by the Attorney General and the Advocate General for Scotland,

      https://twitter.com/UKSupremeCourt/status/1070640758288453632

    159. orri says:

      If it comes back to applying for an S30 it’d be wise for the SNP to double check exactly what the process is.

      I think May is not the one that get’s asked but

      https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/465294/Devolution_Guidance_Note_14_orders_made_under_section_30_2_of_the_scotland_act_alterations_to_legislative_competence.pdf

      seems to suggest the first step is to contact the Scotland Office.
      It also says that both governments must be in agreement.

      On another related issue though,

      https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/section/30

      has the following,


      30 Legislative competence: supplementary.
      (1)Schedule 5 (which defines reserved matters) shall have effect.
      (2)Her Majesty may by Order in Council make any modifications of Schedule 4 or 5 which She considers necessary or expedient.
      (3)Her Majesty may by Order in Council specify functions which are to be treated, for such purposes of this Act as may be specified, as being, or as not being, functions which are exercisable in or as regards Scotland.
      (4)An Order in Council under this section may also make such modifications of—
      (a)any enactment or prerogative instrument (including any enactment comprised in or made under this Act), or
      (b)any other instrument or document,as Her Majesty considers necessary or expedient in connection with other provision made by the Order.

      [F1(5)Subsection (6) applies where any alteration is made—
      (a)to the matters which are reserved matters, or
      (b)to Schedule 4,(whether by virtue of the making, revocation or expiry of an Order in Council under this section or otherwise).
      (6)Where the effect of the alteration is that a provision of an Act of the Scottish Parliament ceases to be within the legislative competence of the Parliament, the provision does not for that reason cease to have effect (unless an enactment provides otherwise).]

      Now that suggests that Westminster can’t simply remove or add powers without Holyrood’s says so. Given this is the mechanism for doing so.

      The bit in bold is a more recent addition. It says that timing is important and far more relevant that Westminster can’t simply render legislation passed by Holyrood defunct by reserving the powers that allowed it in the first place. That means that saying Westminster creating treaties that would reserve powers currently exercised by the EU is not a valid reason for preventing legislation in anticipation of Brexit.

      Basically the Continuity Bill says that when the UK exits the EU Holyrood will take control of those powers. That is perfectly in line with the reserved nature of those powers.

    160. Gerry says:

      @Orri

      I would add that Schedule 5 is deliberately left open to interpretation in the way that it is written so that it may be ruled on a case by case basis. It’s not as rigid a list of reservations as it is considered to be by many.

      The guidance notes are always worth a look. Don’t have the actual link to them to hand, but it’s set out here.

      https://imgur.com/a/CElfapG

    161. yesindyref2 says:

      @Proud Cybernat
      Yes, that may be a possibility I think.

      @Nana
      It’s all coming before Christmas, Monday 10th for the ECJ ruling and Thursday 13th for the UKSC. It’s pretty clear that the ECJ ruling was / is what the UKSC is waiting for.

      Presumably that can affect their ruling which is …

      … very interesting!

    162. Golfnut says:

      @ Gerry.

      But it wouldn’t be UDI. It would either be a suspension or Dissolution of the Treaty of Union until a confirmatory referendum was held.

    163. Golfnut says:

      @ yesindyref2.

      Which would make the SP delay appear political rather than judicial.

    164. Gerry says:

      @Golfnut

      Yes. UDI, absent an expression of will by the sovereign people, would be questionable to say the least. But UDI used as a mechanism to pre-empt a WM stall attempt via the courts would make it difficult to rule against that democratic positive expression, given the already accepted claim of right.

      I suppose in a sense that it flips the referendum question to one of whether Scots would like to rejoin the union or not.

    165. orri says:

      Also worth noting, as has been said before, the S30 order is not to hold the referendum. It’s to make fucking sure that the relevant steps needed to enact the result have been taken beforehand.

      It’s not exactly like the EU referendum as in that case there was a recognised procedure open to interpretation. It’s more along the lines of what might happen should there be a referendum resulting in a YES victory.

      Without Westminster’s prior agreement then it’d be a notification of the result of Scotland’s Self Determination to the UN, EU and other interested parties and a request that they officially recognise it. It’d also be a referendum held with invited international observers.

    166. Golfnut says:

      @Gerry.

      I presume you consider Scotland colony rather than a partner in a political union by means of ratified international Treaty.

    167. Gerry says:

      @golfnut, No. I consider Scotland an equal partner in a union.

    168. Jack Murphy says:

      Now is the time for the sovereign people of Scotland to DISSOLVE the 1707 Treaty of Union between the two Kingdoms.

      Let the Kingdom of England have it’s Brexit without rancour. 🙂

    169. Proud Cybernat says:

      “Now is the time for the sovereign people of Scotland to DISSOLVE the 1707 Treaty of Union between the two Kingdoms.

      Let the Kingdom of England have it’s Brexit without rancour.”

      I think, in the short term and to fire a shot across the bow of the UK Establishment, while we still remain a partner within the UK, we simply exert our sovereign right to remain EU citizens and we do that through the European / UN courts. I do not think it would be beyond any difficulty whatsoever to prove that the UK Gov with its dash to Brexit is effectively subverting the sovereign rights and will of the Scottish people who overwhelmingly voted to remain EU citizens.

      If that is upheld then the UK must yield to our democratic wishes and we work together to put in place the necessary border and regulatory arrangements. If the UK constitution can accommodate Gibraltar and N.I. then there I do not see any reason why it cannot also accommodate Scotland.

      Remaining in EU and a similar trade agreement with rUK as N.I. has, then Scotland will be in a position of being virtually independent of UK. Just one short step to be fully so.

    170. Davosa says:

      Theresa May must be totally fuckin dim. You would have thought she (or her equally stupid and increasingly ridiculous party) would have put some cancellation clauses into the bribe/bung to the DUP. But no they got all the of the bribe and apparently are not going to deliver the supply part. Hilariously idiotic by a very stupid and lying government

    171. Welsh Sion says:

      Derek M @ 10.35 am.

      Interestingly enough, 21 December this year marks the 25th anniversary of the repeal of the so-called Acts of Union (aka “Laws in Wales Acts 1535-1542”) between ourselves and England. The legislation enabling this – Welsh Language Act 1993, Schedule 2 – was passed at Westminster with the full support of the PM at the time, John Major, and of course, before devolution.

      We look forward to Scotland joining us in having her own Treaties of Union with England repealed.

      PS Mark Drakeford AM, is the new Head Honcho of ‘Welsh’ Labour. Next week we find out if he is appointed First Minister.

    172. Essexexile says:

      Splitting the leave vote to ensure a remain win in euref2 by offering Chequers Vs No deal Vs Remain will pave the way for splitting the Yes vote (and to a lesser extent BT) in indyref2 (Yes Vs Devo max Vs Better Together as we are).

    173. Cubby says:

      Bill@10.03am

      Talk of UDI is helping the Britnats. Why would you want to do that. You can dissolve the Treaty of union, you can terminate it, you can end it – take your pick from a whole range – dissolve the Treaty is quite popular at the moment. UDI implies doing something illegal/ wrong and that Scotland is a region or subservient state. If you are for independence why use a term that helps the Britnats?

    174. geeo says:

      I think you answered your own question there, Cubby.

      Who would be motivated to do such a thing ?

      There are too many yessers who think udi is a good idea !!

      All we can do is keep educating them.

    175. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      This is from:-

      https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/unilateral-declaration-of-independence

      “Unilateral Declaration of Independence
      a declaration of independence made by a dependent state without the assent of the protecting state”

      As the kingdom of Scotland and the kingdom of England are in a “voluntary” union of parliaments, neither kingdom is “dependent” or “protecting”. They are, legally, equal partners in that union.
      Either kingdom can dissolve the union if it feels that the union is not serving it.
      The status quo, prior to 1707, would then exist, ie two separate, independent kingdoms.
      No UDI required.

      From:-
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unilateral_declaration_of_independence

      “A unilateral declaration of independence (UDI) is a formal process leading to the establishment of a new state by a subnational entity which declares itself independent and sovereign without a formal agreement with the national state from which it is seceding”

      As the kingdom of Scotland and the kingdom of England are in a “voluntary” union of parliaments, under the terms of the 1707 Treay of Union, either member of the union removing itself from that union, does not lead “to the establishment of a new state by a subnational entity which declares itself independent and sovereign without a formal agreement with the national state from which it is seceding”.

      Neither Scotland nor England are “subnational entities” – they are equal partners in a union of parliaments.

      Once again, Either kingdom can dissolve the union if it feels that the union is not serving it.
      The status quo, prior to 1707, would then exist, ie two separate, independent kingdoms.

      No UDI required.

      It’s my belief that the seeds of the UDI weed were planted by pro-union agitators, probably by “concern trolls”. Some on the YES side of Scotland’s independence campaign then ran with it, muddying the waters in their wish for any means of achieving independence for Scotland.

      Legally, Scotland cannot declare UDI – coz there’s no need for it! The majority of Sovereign Scots just have to ask the Scottish Parliament to dissolve the 1707 Treaty of Union, under the terms of the “Vienna Convention on the law of treaties” (1969). (Google it!)

    176. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I did type,
      “under the terms of the “Vienna Convention on the law of treaties” (1969)”
      because that treaty does not work retrospectively, it only covers treaties entered into since 1969.

      But the terms of the convention can be applied to previous treaties.



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