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Wings Over Scotland

An excellent question

Posted on December 05, 2018 by

Posed by Kezia Dugdale in the Holyrood chamber today:

“I’m interested in [Liz Smith]’s views, she therefore thinks democracy is just an act of one cross in a box every four years, or does she genuinely believe that when the facts change people should be entitled to change their mind as well?”

As it happens we’re quite keen to clarify Ms Dugdale’s own views on that one, because they seem to have, let’s say, evolved since last year, and we’d like to warmly and sincerely welcome the apparent change. Asking for a couple of million friends.

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    1. 05 12 18 17:56

      An excellent question | speymouth

    44 to “An excellent question”

    1. Proud Cybernat says:

      But there are ‘facts’ and there are ‘SLabour facts’. And never the twain shall meet.

    2. Tom Busza says:

      We always hear about the SNP “always banging on about Independence”. Is it not the truth that the only people actually “banging on about Independence” are the Unionist parties and the media?

    3. jimnarlene says:

      Could Kez be reconsidering her stance re independence?
      If she does, I, for one, will welcome her to the Yes family.

    4. Thepnr says:

      Poor Kezia, at one time she also supported the idea of a free vote on Independence for all party members, MP’s and MSP’s.

      She was soon disavowed of that position by her own party who are terrified of a second referendum. For the life of me I can’t work out why. Half a million supporters in Scotland lost already over this with no doubt more to follow.

      Her flip flopping that still continues today with her replacement Richard Leonard will eventually reduce their support among the public to virtually zero. Maybe that’s been the plan all along LOL

    5. Confused says:

      -oh new thread on Keza-babe … the Rev throws us a bone

      Tonight’s comedy viewing sorted.

      Keza looks to me like a 6th former who is retaking her Higher English so she can get into teacher training.

      This woman could have led our nation, if it weren’t for her incompetence as a politician, inability to maintain a coherent position or intellectually dominate opponents or convince floating voters to vote for her.
      – she got THIS CLOSE.
      – in her mind.

    6. Andy-B says:

      Even now as the UK through Brexit goes down the toilet, Dugdale and Labour espouse the merits of remaining in the onesided union.

      The Britnats should ditch their obsession with the union, and work with the SNP, to secure a better more prosperous Scotland through independence.

      The Labour branch office in Scotland should be standing up for Scotland not Westminster, they should get behind Nicola Sturgeon and back her and their country.

      Instead Dugdale and the Scottish Labour branch office are putting self-interest first, which is disgraceful.

      Their backing of the union even now, will have economic repercussions in a detrimental way for decades in Scotland.

      Their failure to support Scotland will see them drop even further in the polls.

    7. Clootie says:

      Like all unionists she supports democracy except when applied to Scottish Independence.

    8. Dr Jim says:

      Kezia finds the definition of the word *facts* difficult, but then again the word difficult is difficult for Kezia in fact words are difficult for Kezia that’s why she carries with her at all times the Kezia dictionary of words and concealed therein are meanings wot she writ down a very long time ago that tells her saying words can sometimes be wrong but it’s OK if you cross your fingers and *beleeeeve*

    9. yesindyref2 says:

      Kezia Dugdale said Labour will never support a second referendum. She didn’t say SHE wouldn’t. And she’s right, Labour probably never would.

    10. Fairliered says:

      Now she’s got more time to visit, and listen to, her parents, maybe she is starting to understand the reasons for their views.

      I really don’t understand SLAB’s position. Within 1 or 2 post independence elections, they could well be Scotland’s largest party, if only they came to terms with why their voters previously deserted them.

      But how many of their MSPs are socialists, as opposed to troughers?

    11. Douglas gourlay says:

      I just see my 80+ year old mother wrapping a blanket around her and drifting her away from the scene.

    12. Muscleguy says:

      It is not a binary thing, the one can easily both coexist with the other in one person or a person can morph from one into the other. See as an example the former left wing firebrand Lord Alistair Darling.

    13. RMF Brown says:

      But when is the next referendum?

      As far as I’m concerned, Wightman’s court case ‘victory’ could turn out to be an utter disaster for Yes in the long term.

      After 2014, I honestly thought that was it. We’d never get another chance. And then Brexit. And the Tories on the ropes, and the country is a mess, and then Scottish Independence is the smart option, and Wightman and Alyn Smith want to block this, and give London the power to reverse it?

      Are they f*****g mad?

      This is kamikaze tactics. Never again will the stars align so favourably for us. They should let Brexit run its course, and seize the opportunity from the chaos. We who support Scottish Indy should be on our knees thanking the heavens that Brexit happened.

      Bismarck once said that if you wait for the perfect moment in politics, you’ll be waiting forever. Chances must be seized when they present themselves.

      Because if the UK stays in the EU, we’re right back to 2014, and Indy support in a holding pattern at 45%, and the Unionists using the same scare tactics to beat us again: Spanish veto, and Andrew Marr spoon feeding EU officials on his f*****g couch Our tactics never worked in 2014, and the same tactics are doomed to failure. Again.

      And so we have an SNP who act as though they have all the time in the world. And then their 56 MPs gets whittled down to 30 odd, and then they lose their majority in Holyrood…and still they sit on the fence.

      And then Brexit arrives, a gift from the heavens for them, and still nothing…

      If not now, when?

    14. galamcennalath says:

      Dugdale gives us a glimpse into the BritNat from Scotland mind. Hypocrisy, lack of self awareness, and blinkered nationalism. They never give the Scottish context and dimension much thought.

    15. BBC News is ‘live’ at Bush’s funeral right now.
      The Breakdown of Democrcay has been taken off the ‘front page’ by another nation’s State Funeral for a man who made billions for Big Oil and the US Military and Industrial Complex (Eisenhower’s description) with a BBC news readers hushed reverential tones describing the emotional scenes for the viewers in England, or the ‘BOBs’.
      Meanwhile at the Palace of Westminster; ‘move on, nothing to see here’.
      Dugdale was never up to the job, being the second last in a long line of abject placemats heading the Branch Office since Dewar passed away.
      Dick Leonard is the man she should challenge on ‘facts’.
      Labour is finished.
      Anyone with a vestige of conscience left should leave now and support Self Deteremination.
      Perhaps this is Ms Dugdale’s direction of travel. The Scottish National New Labour Party? With the Bold K at the helm?

    16. call me dave says:

      STV news:

      Blackford got a telling off from the speaker…but!..but! what did he say.

      He got a 2nd telling off….but WTF did he say?.

      We’ll never know…. they didn’t show him continue his speech! 🙂

    17. call me dave says:

      Oh! Where am I…a new thread you say Jings sorry. 🙁

    18. geeo says:

      Why i could not be an MP at WM.

      Me: “She is a lying git”

      Speaker: “no no no…you cannot imply someone is less than honest in this place”

      Me: “I’m not implying it, she IS a lying git” !

    19. ScottieDog says:

      “Kezia Dugdale said Labour will never support a second referendum. She didn’t say SHE wouldn’t. And she’s right, Labour probably never would.”

      Yeah I wonder if she’ll cross over. If she does we need to keep he well away from an official yes campaign. Absolute liability

    20. mike cassidy says:

      Fairliered 5.46

      “I really don’t understand SLAB’s position. Within 1 or 2 post independence elections, they could well be Scotland’s largest party, if only they came to terms with why their voters previously deserted them. “

      Its a question of political ego.

      They want to be part of the government of a major power.

      Not a wee country like Scotland.

      Well, if Gordon Brown didn’t teach them to be careful what you wish for

      Maybe this brexit clusterfeck will awaken them to the realisation that

      as The Proclaimers didn’t sing

      “major power no more”

    21. yesindyref2 says:

      She did try to get Labour to go for an open vote in the event of Indy Ref 2, rather than a party line. Not surprisingly she was knocked back by the old-timer rearguard.

    22. John Walsh says:

      Kezie to register a “Scottish Democratic Labour Party”? I’m boss she says who wants to be in my gang? Wipes the glitter from her eyes and try’s on those Tartan Heels again.

      Would “BOB” ( new name for Leonard) explell her ? Or would the comrade’s have to have a committee meeting. ?

    23. Macart says:

      A question I’m sure Ms Dugdale will be reminded of on a regular basis from now on. 😎

    24. Kenno says:


      The DUP selt doon the river.

      The Glorious Union my arse.

      They have been made to look like the clowns they are.

    25. Capella says:

      Perhaps she’ll sit as an INDEPENDENT?
      Boom Boom!! 🙂

    26. Fairliered says:

      Many SLAB MSPs will have started their careers as left wing firebrands (if only to get union sponsorship) but now have their fat arses on comfy seats. Think pigs in Animal Farm. I exclude James Kelly from the list of firebrands, as he has always had the charisma, as well as the career, of a chartered accountant. I also exclude Jackie Baillie, as she has always been a lying chancer.

    27. Undeadshuan says:

      @RMF Brown

      The SNP have shown that they put country before party, unlike labour and the conservatives.
      Over 30 labour MPs have said they would oppose a second referendum, so the arithmetic of the chances of a second EU referundum are not there.

      Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP have went above and beyond in trying to keep UK and Scotland in the EU.
      This will be noticed by former no voters who voted to stay in the EU and will pay dividends when all other options to stay in the EU have been exhausted.

      Currently support for remain in the EU is at 70%, we only need 50.001 % yes to win independence.

      When the time comes we will get substantialy more than 50%.

    28. jfngw says:

      Job done by Reporting Scotland, short clips of MSP’s in the Brexit debate, except of course the full diatribe from Tompkins about independence. Plus the only voxpop that had a definite message was the one demanding leave as the country voted, the rest were wishy washy, they seemed incapable of finding anyone that supports the SG position.

      It a daily diet of negativity towards Scotland, normally with the odd misinformation slipped in for the gullible.

    29. Colin Alexander says:

      @ RMF Brown

      The SNP are devolutionists. The SNP campaign for indy ended with Alex Salmond’s resignation as FM.

      These politicians are trying to make the best of the situation of Scotland remaining as part of the UK, as indy is very unlikely under Nicola Sturgeon’s iron-grip control of the SNP.

      Ms Sturgeon is Establishment all the way. I cannot see her ordering an indyref unless it’s approved by Westminster.

      Even if she fails to hold back the demands for indyref2, I still cannot see YES winning, unless the whole campaign were subject to international observers scrutinising every part of the campaign, especially BBC bias and covert interference by UK security and civil service to influence the result in favour of the Union.

      Again, I can’t see that happening.

    30. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Fairliered at 6:38 pm.

      You typed,
      “I exclude James Kelly from the list of firebrands, as he has always had the charisma, as well as the career, of a chartered accountant.”

      That gives me the opporchancity to post this again.

      “Although James is often referred to as a “chartered accountant”, he himself has typically neither made such a claim – nor denied it.”

    31. Robert Peffers says:

      Breaking news – four hours ago:-
      Blackford vs Bercow.

    32. ScottieDog says:

      This made me laugh though!
      Kezia’s tweet…

      Sorry to say this but @ProfTomkins is currently dying on his arse in chamber right now. Sorry excuse after cliched line after manipulated information… Embarrassing for Tories to be so distant from the facts facing and needs of our country”

    33. Terence callachan says:

      Kezia asked this question because the house was empty of SNP

    34. Fairliered says:

      Hi Brian
      That seems a much better and more accurate summary of James life and career!
      However, given his computing skills, he should be more than capable of correcting his Wikipedia profile to remove the reference to his having been a chartered accountant.

      It’s a pity that BBC Scotlandshire seems no longer to be active. I suppost they found it impossible to be as ridiculous as the Westminster tory government.

    35. robertknight says:

      Scottish Slabber…

      More ‘faces’ than a deck of cards!

      Dippity Dug…

      The brains of a jellyfish!

    36. Hugh says:

      I always said Kezia as Labour leader was the best thing to happen to the SNP, saying what she knew she had to say but making such a mess of it so often there had to be a reason. I always wondered if it was she was maybe conflicted and trying to make herself believe it.

    37. Robert Peffers says:

      @RMF Brown says: 5 December, 2018 at 5:54 pm:

      ” … But when is the next referendum?”

      If, and it is, “if”, a new referendum is to be called it will be exactly when it has been promised to be held. When the Leader of the SNP calls it.

      There is only one political party in the bipartite United Kingdom that can lead Scotland to end the United Kingdom – note that I say, “End the United Kingdom”, and not, “Leave the United Kingdom”, for The Kingdom of Scotland – together with the Kingdom of England are the only two Kingdoms in the United Kingdom and when Scotland decides it is over there can be no United Kingdom with only one Kingdom in it.

      Furthermore Westminster is NOT the Kingdom of England’s legally elected parliament for no such parliament has been elected since 30 April 1707. Westminster ends as a parliament the instant the union ends.

      BTW: RMF, how’s the food in the 77th’s mess these days?

    38. susan says:

      Kezia Dugdale would be no gift to the Independence movement. She is a useless waste of skin.

    39. Ken500 says:

      How can some people be so stupid. Dugdale took supporters to vote Tory. Losing Labour power at Westminster. Beyond stupid and voters can’t get rid of them. They introduced D’Hondt to subjugate democracy in Scotland. They would not last five minutes if they had to stand in their own right. Who on earth would vote for them? They are trying to belittle the Scottish Parliament.

      Mundell is advocating join trade missions with May and Nicola, Truly they have lost the plot. May will be gone soon. The Tories trying to keep their privileges while the economy goes to hell in a handcart. The wheels coming off.

      Labour does not want the poison chalice. Corbyn and LibDems do not even turn up to vote.

    40. msean says:

      She would be made welcome on the YES side,I think. Sticking with the Union now means,(unless you seriously think Mr Corbyn can actually win a General Election)backing Brexit and all the associated losses of revenue and jobs,the loss of powers from Scotland etc.

    41. Craig P says:

      RMF Brown says:

      As far as I’m concerned, Wightman’s court case ‘victory’ could turn out to be an utter disaster for Yes in the long term.

      I disagree. Here’s what will happen.

      1. We don’t avoid Brexit. We start lowering the lifeboats, and the sensible half of England asks that we remember them for when they gain power and renegotiate the EU relationship. We say yes because we are nice that way.

      2. We do avoid Brexit, thanks to the crucial contribution of Scots like Andy Wightman and Nichola Sturgeon. The gammons are incandescent, stage a coup, and make life so unbearable for Scotland that we are forced out anyway.

      Win win.

    42. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Craig P at 8.51

      Yes. We are in a win/win/win situation. Thanks to the tactical nous of Nicola Sturgeon who has given our enemy absoultely nothing to attack us on while putting them up against the wall on everything.

    43. yesindyref2 says:

      I thought about this bit in the ECJ AG’s opinion:

      allows the unilateral revocation of the notification of the intention to withdraw from the EU, until such time as the withdrawal agreement is formally concluded, provided that the revocation has been decided upon in accordance with the Member State’s constitutional requirements, is formally notified to the European Council and does not involve an abusive practice.

      and does not involve an abusive practice

      2 or 3 months back I posted that if the EU-27 refuses to agree on an extension to the 2 years limit for A50, the UK could revoke A50, and then re-invoke it at their lesiure – a month or two later even, so as to give themselves more time for negotiations.

      The bit about “abusive practice” seems to me to rule that out, as does the later part

      There is also a temporal limit on the possibility of revocation, since revocation is possible only within the two-year period that begins when the intention to withdraw is notified. The principles of good faith and sincere cooperation must also be observed, in order to prevent abuse of the procedure laid down in Article 50 TEU

      The principles of good faith“.

      So that’s that then, perhaps another alternative ruled out.

    44. Andy Anderson says:

      Kezia’s partner is an SNP member. I would have thought Kezia should have been converted to Yes by now.

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