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Wings Over Scotland


In different times

Posted on December 04, 2018 by

If there’s one thing you can say for the Tories, it’s that right or wrong, they always stick to their principles.

Oh, not YOU, Scotland.

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    1. 04 12 18 13:56

      In different times | speymouth

    429 to “In different times”

    1. manandboy says:

      Westminster is latched on to Scotland’s oil teat, and won’t let go till forced to. Watch this space.

    2. Dr Jim says:

      The current crop at Westminster don’t subscribe to the notion of democracy especially where Scotland and its 200 billion a year economy are concerned

      When Scotland becomes Independent and England sees how well it’s going they’re very likely to kick up a fuss about being screwed for the whole of their lives and Westminster can’t have that can they (Les Miserables) what a sight that’ll be when it comes…..and it will come!

    3. Truth says:

      The interesting words there for me are “…the Conservatives under my leadership…”.

      The implication being that under another leadership that may not be the case.

    4. skozra says:

      He’ll have meant in a different Scotland when he was talking about that, not this Scotland, one of the other ones, probably.

    5. jfngw says:

      It would be interesting to see the ECJ rule on whether the sovereign people of Scotland can have their EU citizenship removed by the will of another country. After all we joined as the UK bound by a Treaty of Union of the two countries, does the EU recognise that Scotland as part of the UK was a signatory and at this time have voted to remain as EU citizens

    6. jfngw

      If the EU didn’t realise that Scotland is an equal signatory to England within the UK, it should now.

      The reason it hasn’t until now is because Scotland has lain down under the Rule of WM which has gone too far now.

      However, we will have to convince the EU that we are serious about breaking up this Union.

    7. galamcennalath says:

      Cameron said … “can’t hold parts of the UK within the UK against their will “

      May has never actually disagreed, her policy has been to thwart us from clarifying our democratic wishes in the first place.

      May’s approach has been … “won’t let parts of the UK express their will “

    8. Colin Alexander says:

      And the SNP promised the Scottish Parliament would have the right to hold indyref2 if Scotland is being dragged out of the EU against her will. No ifs, no buts, such as: … if Westminster legislates an S30 order.

      UK Govts and Tories don’t keep their promises.

      Let’s see if the SNP keep their promise of Indyref2 when the UK Govt and official opposition have both made it crystal clear there will be no UK Parliament S.30 order during this Scottish Parliamentary term that ends in 2021.

    9. galamcennalath says:

      Of course, when Cameron expressed such fair and reasonable opinions, he would have been briefed that there was no chance of a YES win in any such IndyRef.

      Probably in much the same way was he was lead to believe that there would be no Leave win in an EURef!

      For IndyRef he had a Plan B up his sleeve. I know for certain that he intended to offer DevoMax if things for close.

      As things turned out, he didn’t have a Plan B for EURef!

    10. G says:

      It’s staggering to me that after Brexit, all the betrayals of promises made during the referendum, and then Theresa May’s “now is not the time” refusal of a referendum that support for independence isn’t well over 60%. All of these things fly in the face of the union narrative up until 2014. Is it purely down to media framing and manipulation, or is there something else at work? I know some people will never change their mind, but there must be a lot of reasonably minded people who were a bit naive and would now reconsider their No vote. Anecdotally we have all seen this. So why is it not being reflected in polls?

    11. Helena Brown says:

      If the 1707 treaty was an actual treaty between two then independent countries why is there this difficulty in dissolving it?
      This Union always been one subservient and one dominant. Time we got very firmly off our knees.

    12. jfngw says:

      May and the Tories need realise if they are refusing a referendum and using the Westminster system to thwart Scotland’s choice then we must fall back on this system and a majority of independence supporting Scottish MP’s is a mandate for independence.

      They can’t use a double headed coin in the toss, using Westminster type FPTP mandate to deny a proportional Scottish mandate.

    13. Thepnr says:

      Since May declared that “now is not the time” the case for Independence has strengthened as we have witnessed Scottish views being totally ignored and an attempt at a power grab by Westminster that has ended up with both governments in court.

      In addition even if you’ve hardly paid any attention at all to the Brexit debacle few would have missed the total shambles caused by the sheer incompetence of those that currently govern us from Westminster.

      The polls maybe don’t yet reflect that in terms of % support but I’m talking arguments and justification for Independence and not of current support. The support will grow and Brexit has helped by given the arguments we can use to persuade others.

      One of the main issues now though, is that we might not be dragged out of the EU against our will after all and today’s opinion given by the Attorney General brings the possibility of a second EU referendum and a Remain vote that bit closer.

      What then for Indyref2 if that were to occur?

    14. Bill Hume says:

      Dear Thepnr, don’t worry. Even if there is a second Brexit vote and we remain in the EU…..the Tories will f^%k that up as well.

    15. geeo says:

      @G 12.45pm

      Really ??

      Either you are the last person to not know that opinion polls are NOT expressions of opinion, but rather, are manipulations by establishment lackies designed to INFLUENCE opinion NOT reflect opinion, particularly on Scottish independence.

      Anyone waiting on a 50% plus Yes, set of ‘opinion’ polls is in for a very long wait.

      Polling companies have databases ffs, if they want a 43% Yes 57% No poll result, they simply reference the data base, and phone up those THEY ALREADY KNOW voted in previous polls and hey presto…Yes 43% v No 57%.

      Or…

      You are are one of those types who post insidious, snide ridden comments with a clear message that you want people to think support for indy has stalled or is not there “so why bother”.

      So, which are you ?

    16. The Regime will not easily lets us go for three reasons:

      They harvest a huge amount of money from Scotland.

      When independent Scottish people would enjoy a much higher standard of living than English folk. This would cause issues particularly in the North of England as folk there compared their existence with folk in Scotland, it would be very difficult for the English Government to explain away the higher living standards in Scotland.

      Trident, the Regime want to retain the Nuclear weapons, they need to house them in Scotland as they are too dangerous to site in England, think of the danger to English children.
      English voters rightly would not tolerate that stuff near their homes.

    17. Thepnr says:

      The Attorney General then with his opinion that Article 50 can be revoked unilaterally by the UK makes a second EUref more likely in my opinion as there would be no more issues to be resolved between the EU and UK. The UK would remain a member and I think under the terms of the current agreement including rebate and opt outs.

      Sure, at this stage it’s just the AG’s opinion but the odds I think are in favour of his opinion being the same one taken by the ECJ with maybe a couple of points to be cleared up such as what is meant by “an abusive practice”?

      Assuming the final ruling doesn’t change I can’t see MP’s choosing to revoke Article 50 without having a second EU referendum first. A referendum couldn’t be used after revocation because the result would be unknown and could still be leave.

      You can’t put the cart before the horse, so referendum first and only with a remain vote, then revocation of Article 50 could follow.

      I think the chances of this happening have been increased quite a bit. May will still have to lose the “meaningful vote”, probably twice and there is nowhere then to go if Parliament want to avoid “no deal” other than a General Election or EUref2.

      A GE looks less likely to me because it doesn’t resolve anything at all no matter who wins. So EUref2 with a remain vote followed by revocation of Article 50. The fun part, is that after such an outcome then we would most likely see the collapse of the Tory government, followed by a General Election but Brexit would have been resolved.

      Where an Indyref2 fits in amongst that lot I have no idea. The decision on when to go for Indyref2 is a decision for Solomon.

    18. schrodingers cat says:

      euref2 will happen, but only in the far future

      both labour and tories campaign in the ge 10 months ago on manifestos stating they would leave the eu, the sm and the cu.

      their respective mps have no mandate to stop brexit or to support the euref2.

      the real battle isnt happening in the eu courts or in the hoc, it is happening in the 1922 commitee room

      mogg and co are sitting there patiently, waiting for the hoc to reject any ammendment to the a50 which stops or delays brexit and for them to reject treezas deal. they are waiting for the opposition to call a vote of no confidence and to force treezas resignation and a ge

      this is what they want, they are happy for the snp and labour parties to do their dirty work

      if at anytime during this process, it looks like the hoc will deviate from this path, they will challenge the PM

      no PM, no hoc debate, everything stops. when the new no deal tory pm wins the challenge, he will dissolve parliament and announce a ge

      if it looks even slightly that an ammendment to the a50 bill to hold euref2 will pass, they will step in and halt everything. the present MPs may never even get the chance to vote on the bill.

    19. G says:

      @geeo

      “Or…

      You are are one of those types who post insidious, snide ridden comments with a clear message that you want people to think support for indy has stalled or is not there “so why bother”.

      So, which are you ?”

      You really are a paranoid clown. How you could see anything in what I wrote as “insidious”, “snide ridden” or wanting people to “think support for indy has stalled” is beyond me. If you think opinion polls are worthless and fatally compromised then why not just say that. Loony.

    20. orri says:

      The mention of the EU interpreting the provisions of A50 under the Vienna Convention on Treaties is definitely a warning shot across Westminster’s bows as far as Scotland’s place in the EU if we vote both for independence and EU membership. It says that the EU may very well decide that Scotland would be one of two successor states and thus eligible to continuing rather than new membership subsequent to negotiations.

    21. wull2 says:

      My opinion,
      Scotland should send a letter to the EU,that the people of Scotland wants to reverse the A50 letter, its then up to the EU to accept it or reject it.

    22. Macart says:

      @Thepnr

      A vote will happen when we’re ready for it. 🙂

      As yet, nothing has been reversed and Westminster politics is in chaos. Hell, the people in the street are poles apart. GE, new referendum? Who knows? Or the usual blind refusal to listen, face the music and soldier on regardless? That is the accepted practice of the hard of empathy in Westminster. And THAT has been the point of the hold, HOLD, tactics IMV.

      Right at the very start of this omnishambles, the FM couldn’t have been any clearer when she stated that what we are living through is an unprecedented scenario. There were no laws, no rulings and by definition NO precedents. Well? Those laws and those precedents are being made right now. Not entirely sure Westminster are going to like the outcomes right enough and I’m absolutely sure the public won’t.

      Whether Brexit goes ahead or not, the effects of the past two years? The actions taken by Westminster’s political class won’t be forgotten. Not by anyone. I’d say they’ve burnt a few bridges with huge swathes of the voting public across these islands by now.

      The clock is ticking.

    23. Terence callachan says:

      Here’s a little help for those people on here who think that race and nationality are the same thing, they are not ,the sooner you know it the sooner you will perhaps cease to call people racists inappropriately

      http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/politics/difference-between-race-and-nationality/

    24. Golfnut says:

      Or the UK gov could declare the EU ref null and void having suddenly found evidence that dark money and outside interference had corrupted the process. Lol.

    25. schrodingers cat says:

      this is why i support nicola’s choice, pnr is correct, if brexit is stopped or an euref2 is called and remain wins, we will lose our mandate for indyref2.

      point is, that isnt going to happen, when this goat rodeo comes to an end and the ge is called, the snp will come out of it and into the ge as the most logical, rational, competent and consistent political party in the entire uk.

      they will also be seen by all remainers across the entire uk as the only voice of reason in this entire fiasco.

      ruth davidson and mundell,on the other hand, will need to change their minds and campaign in scotland on behalf of their new no deal tory leader.

      this will be the straw that finally breaks the donkeys back. during the ge campaign i expect to see the start of unionists crossing the floor to join the snp.

      when the no deal tory party wins the ge, it will become a stampede.

      nicola will launch indyref2 on the morning of the result

    26. Muscleguy says:

      @wull2
      They can ignore it since they will rule Scotland as a political entity has no standing in the matter so it is not germane. They will just tell us to get our independence confirmed first then they will happily talk to us about next.

      Either that or it will just get bounced back to WM as an internal matter and they will continue to say No.

      So there is no point in even trying it. Sorry bear such news to you but we are where we are and the lack of an ability to take that route is one reason why we need independence.

    27. geeo says:

      @G.

      The fact that i gave you 2 options and you jumped on just one of them and attacked me, says it all.

      You just confirmed what you are.

      Bravo…that was easy.

    28. Dan Huil says:

      Civil war to break out in England. Oh dear what a shame. Scotland must take advantage of this chaos.

    29. Very good year 1967 says:

      Watching the debate from Westminster and first SNP speaker is talked over throughout his speech.
      Next up the DUP and complete silence from the benches.
      The Speaker has the power to stop this nonsense , but never mind it’s only the SNP.

    30. Muscleguy says:

      Also the irony is that last time rUK would have had a big reason not to veto our accession as if we were out of the EU it would establish an EU border (see the current Irish situation) yet WHEN we accede rUK will be in no position to veto it and it will likely establish a harder border, likely handled largely with technology and as the Irish are doing denying travel to people not welcome in the UK. iScotland, rUK and Eire (as now or reunited) could then still have a common travel area without too many problems.

      We would have to have things like a completely separate NI number system to establish eligibility to live and work in different places but that shouldn’t be a big issue.

    31. Terence callachan says:

      I have been called a racist on here because I believe that English people no matter where they live should not have a vote on Scottish independence.
      I’m not a racist.
      If gibralter ever have a vote on independence or a vote on staying part of UK or returning to Spain I believe it should only be gibraltarians that get to decide, not all the English Scottish Welsh Irish employees living there temporarily to work in the gambling industry , if they were born in gibralter or have a parent who was born there they should get to vote otherwise no.
      I have noticed that there is a little gang on her who think they are kind of in charge of what is discussed here, well I for one am just saying you are not in charge of what is said her.
      You don’t have to agree with what others say but it’s not for you to tell them to get off the site.
      If you don’t agree with someone you should just explain why , as politely as your disagreement ,even anger, allows but don’t get aggressive or abusive or use foul language it’s very annoying .
      I don’t expect everyone to agree with my point of view but I am going make my point, nicely , I don’t expect foul and abusive language as a reply or aggression either and I won’t leave the site, only the website administrators can put me off.

    32. Packhorse Pete says:

      G @1.35
      “Really ??

      Either you are the last person to not know that opinion polls are NOT expressions of opinion, but rather, are manipulations by establishment lackies designed to INFLUENCE opinion NOT reflect opinion, particularly on Scottish independence.”

      Really yourself G.

      This is exactly the sort of tosh we heard before the last referendum. “Polls are manipulated – must be over 60%. Lots of shy yessers. No vote exaggerated…..”.

      But when it came to the actual vote, the polls were generally accurate. So, please stop this wishful and complacent thinking, which is not helping us get over the threshold. And, by the way, your use of caps , Daily Express style, does not actually make your argument any more valid.

    33. G says:

      @Packhorse Pete

      If you re-read my post, you’ll see I was quoting geeo.

    34. G says:

      @geeo

      “@G.

      The fact that i gave you 2 options and you jumped on just one of them and attacked me, says it all.

      You just confirmed what you are.”

      Does it, aye? You’re a zoomer.

    35. geeo says:

      Ok Packhorse pete.

      A recent poll by CLEARPOLL (over 3000 respondants) showed YES support at 98.8%.

      Are you saying THAT poll is an accurate relection of Indy Support ?

      Or the 80,000 vote Daily Record poll which ran for 6 days and showed YES at 78% ?

      Are you admitting THAT poll was an accurate reflection of current indy support ?

      Or are you sticking with your claim, that a poll of just 1000 people is more accurarate, because the manipulated figures (always under 50%) better suit your narrative ?

    36. Breeks says:


      wull2 says:
      4 December, 2018 at 1:47 pm
      My opinion,
      Scotland should send a letter to the EU,that the people of Scotland wants to reverse the A50 letter, its then up to the EU to accept it or reject it.

      I very much like that idea.

    37. Thepnr says:

      @Terence callachan

      The majority of posters on Wings tend to stay On Topic with their first post. The article under discussion is that of a second Independence referendum and the right to have one or how one might be made possible, when should we have one?

      Many questions seeking answers about an Independence referendum. It’s not about race or the English as so many of your posts are.

    38. geeo says:

      @G

      Why are you being abusive to me ?

      I have not abused you.

      I gave 2 options as to your original post.

      One being you were last person not to know polls are a farce, the other that you are a stirrer.

      It was YOU by your response, who made clear you were the latter, not me.

      I shall be magmanimous and give you the opportunity to apologise for your abusive comments towards me, otherwise i shall send it to the site owner to decide what is acceptable.

      Well ?

    39. geeo says:

      …….

      Breeks says:

      4 December, 2018 at 2:31 pm

      wull2 says:
      4 December, 2018 at 1:47 pm
      My opinion,
      Scotland should send a letter to the EU,that the people of Scotland wants to reverse the A50 letter, its then up to the EU to accept it or reject it.

      I very much like that idea.
      ……….

      Now THAT would make for an interesting plan..!

    40. Dr Jim says:

      If only indigenous people were allowed to vote on stuff I’m sure the Sioux the Cheyenne and all the other great tribes of the original Americas would be delighted along with the Aborigines in Australia or Hawaiians or Maoris and indeed that would be the end of white people altogether in Africa

      When you proceed down the road of ethnicity as having more rights or entitlements in a country than others who live work obey the law and pay their taxes in a country you advocate something that has been done before by very unpleasant people and was in fact one of the main drivers of the formation of the European Union that they should never again see such practices employed by despots and racists in the future which is the very reason the British Nazionalists are separating themselves from that good organisation now because they want to rid themselves of people they don’t like and Theresa May has admitted that it was indeed the main reason (in her opinion) the people of the *UK* (not Scotland) wanted to leave the EU

      The end justifies the means is a poor argument when the question becomes who’s next

    41. G says:

      @geeo

      Reread your original post where you accuse me of being either (A) “last to know” or (B) a troll, with liberal use of upper case and “ffs”, and ask yourself who is being abusive. Rather than being magnanimous, maybe you should (A) sober up or (B) grow up.

      “Which is it?”

    42. wull2 says:

      The whole point of sending a letter, is they cant say they did not know what the people of Scotland think.

    43. Breeks says:


      wull2 says:
      4 December, 2018 at 2:39 pm
      The whole point of sending a letter, is they cant say they did not know what the people of Scotland think.

      It might just resonate a little louder than that Wull2…

      Quoting from the Guardian:

      “…It added that he (the Advocate General), believed an article 50 process should be handled in the same way as any other international treaty: if a party wished to withdraw from it, it was able to do so unilaterally because it was a sovereign state.

      “Unilateral revocation [of article 50] would also be a manifestation of the sovereignty of the departing member state, which chooses to reverse its initial decision,” Sánchez-Bordona said….

      I think a prudent wee assertion of Scottish Sovereignty might just set the cat amongst the pigeons.

    44. Daisy Walker says:

      The whole Brexshit Construct has been about protecting the elite’s tax havens from new EU legislation.

      A No Deal outcome was always the plan, unless they could broker a backroom deal to protect same. So far, it does not look like the EU has blinked, indeed as time goes on, and more and more jobs and industries re-locate to the EU from Britain, any expenses that a No Deal brings up, are offset. And, being cynical about it, the EU is no stranger to tax havens, think Lichtenstein and Switzerland. At some stage, in the future, they can re-draft their tax legislation to protect their own elites. A double win for them.

      Meanwhile, back in Yoonsville, all that effort and expense to create a Brexshit choice of Shit, or more shit, has just been blown out the water by the ECJ’s AG’s advice that we can stop being silly and just call the whole thing off.

      And thanks to Social Media, they can’t keep this a secret, and there is enough (just) momentum with the English Remain voters that pressure will be brought to bear on the English MPs.

      So what are WM’s options?

      The biggest threat to their No Deal outcome is the upcoming Meaningful vote on Brexshit – it would simply HAVE to have Cancel on the ballot paper.

      However, they can kick that can down the road again, if they will argue for a People’s Vote. They could argue that a PV was respecting the publics democratic will. And all the while the clock is ticking.

      They could kill more time, arguing the terms of the PV – and make no mistake, keeping the Cancel option off that ballot would be a big part of that argument. And they could muster the media – again – to rally the bigots and ‘make out’ immigration was the thing.

      I rather think championing the PV will be Unionist Labour’s party piece, for this round of the game.

      Remember, a cliff edge brexshit, means food shortages, and potentially food riots, equals a state of emergency being declared, means Holyrood shut down. Job done.

    45. Packhorse Pete says:

      G says:
      4 December, 2018 at 2:15 pm
      @Packhorse Pete
      If you re-read my post, you’ll see I was quoting geeo.

      Apologies G.
      He doesn’t sound worth arguing with!

    46. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I noticed in the Guardian’s rolling coverage of today’s events in the HoC, Jacob Rees-Mogg had reminded members that the right of MPs to attend Parliament had been in existence since 1340.

      Could I suggest that, any time a Member attempts to bring-up or refer to parliamentary events prior to 1707, an SNP MP should immediately intervene with a point of order or some other device, reminding the House, the UK Parliament did not exist before 1707, and therefore, events prior to that have no relevance or historical effect, since they refer to the long-since dissolved Parliament of the Kingdom of England, not the Parliament of the United Kingdom.

      It would, of course, really upset the English MPs, but, it would remind them that they cannot assume they sit in the Parliament of Greater England.

      The SNP MPs MUST continually remind their English colleagues of Scotland’s place in the Union – which is as an equal partner, not a colony of England.

    47. Welsh Sion says:

      From other parts of this Disunited Kingdumb:

      Dear Plaid Cymru Member,

      The Senedd will discuss the Prime Minister’s Brexit deal this afternoon.

      As our external affairs spokesperson Steffan Lewis AM explains in this article (please share!), the motion the Welsh Government has put forward is completely unacceptable.

      Instead of setting out an unambiguous stance rejecting the
      Withdrawal Agreement, Labour has decided simply to note some dissatisfaction with the situation and list options for the way forward.

      Our belief is that now is the time for clear leadership which is why our AMs have presented amendments which calls for the Assembly to reject the Withdrawal Agreement and call for an extension to Article 50 and for a People’s Vote to be held, including an option to remain.

      Although many Labour Members have publicly supported a People’s Vote, the last time Plaid Cymru forced a vote on the issue they all voted against.

      Here’s a link you can use if you’re on Twitter to call on these Members to honour their commitment to supporting a People’s Vote: https://ctt.ac/9Eeh_

      The vote is expected to take place around 7:30pm, so keep an eye out on the news and our social media platforms to learn about the result.

      For Wales.

      (PS Carwyn Jones is giving his last First Minister’s Questions today, with nominations for Leader of “Welsh” Labour having closed earlier this morning.)

    48. Golfnut says:

      @ muscle guy.

      Wull2 is not so far from the Mark. I have been pondering something similar for the last while cleaning my paint brushes.

      I would go further, a letter to the EU and ECJ one to the UN and another to the WTO. The letters would have a generic foreword regarding the Treaty of Union and how Westminster had broken its terms by trying to remove Scotland from membership of the EU against our stated will. There could be of info regarding there conduct during Indy 1 and since, there total control of the media etc, there refusal to engage in any meaningful discourse with Scotland’s elected representatives and there refusal to enter into any discussion on an agreement regarding our right to hold a referendum.
      It should detail how and why Scotland’s sovereignty is different to that claimed by Westminster and that Westminster has exceeded its administrative remit by claiming sovereignty over Scotland.

      I’m not going to write a big post on this, but would add that our right to determine our form of government is being usurped, that no trade agreement entered into by Westminster using Scotland’s resources will be honoured. It could be another Declaration of Arbroath type of Doc, but most importantly it should be used to negate Westminster claim to Sovereignty, and we can prove it. Anyway, like I say, Wull2 isn’t so far away as a method of bringing Westminster to heel. In a court law, Scotland wins.

    49. Proud Cybernat says:

      “…and hey presto…Yes 43% v No 57%.”

      WoS has also conducted polls as I’m sure has the SNP (privately). The results pretty much show a 50-50 split on indy (within margin of error).

      The reason the polls have not (yet) shifted towards Indy is quite simply because the vast majority of the population have simply not yet engaged themselves. With the BBC & wider SMSM barely mentioning the utter disaster that Brexit will cause, then they will not shift. The BBC & SMSM really are holding the line.

      And this is where I think the SNP may be making a tactical mistake (if the report in The National today is correct). If we wait for indy support to go to 55% or 60% then we could be waiting a very, very long time. And we’ll wait that long because the BBC / SMSM will do hee-haw to properly inform folks and we won;t be in campaign mode. When IndyRef2 is triggered then THAT RIGHT THERE is when people sit up and pay attention. THAT is when the smart ones will dig deeper and not simply accept what the BBC/SMSM are saying – many will want BOTH sides of the debate (with proper arguments & sources backing them up) before committing themselves.

      Right now we are simply not in that phase. But when that gun is FIRED – then just watch the support for indy climb and climb and climb. There’ll be no stopping it. Which is why the BBC SMSM are begging the FM to take IndyRef2 off the table. They know they are going to lose the vote (no matter what for the eventual vote actually takes).

    50. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Hmmm, I wonder what part of that old article was updated in the wake of the EURef…?

    51. call me dave says:

      @Wull and others.

      Sturgeon should definitely write to the EU… a long letter but on a short piece of paper.

      That would be good.

      PS:

      @Socrates MacSporran

      Absolutely correct….and it would. 🙂

    52. Mr., Callachan I agree with all you say and I have been saying the same things on here since this site started and the same ones on here who talk against you have been talking against me and all we are asking for is fair play only those who are born and live in Scotland should be able to decide the future of THEIR country what honest and fair minded person would object to that ??? Only those who do not really want our freedom would object to that and I think they are the real trolls they want to stop Scottish independence with the help of the votes of the Incomers and false postal votes as they did the last time

    53. Dan Huil says:

      popcorn popcorn popcorn popcorn

      It’s frothy, maaaaaaaaaaan

      http://i.lvme.me/5g3uvs1.jpg

    54. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Proud Cybernat @ 15:09,

      My view also, PC. Firing that starting pistol is inevitably going to take a leap of faith in the people of Scotland. But one that will pay big dividends once people wake up to hard reality, IMO.

      While the prospect of an EUR2 and/or a UKGE still hangs in the air, it would be premature, but it has to be as soon as the opportunity presents and while a real choice is still available.

    55. yesindyref2 says:

      OT
      Now on fibre, same cost basically as the ADSL2 was. Jings, 36mbits from 8, and 9 mbits upload from .8 (could have done with that this weekend).

      It’s that fast I now know what Rev’s next article will be before he’s even thought of it 🙂

    56. Luigi says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:

      4 December, 2018 at 3:34 pm

      Proud Cybernat @ 15:09,

      My view also, PC. Firing that starting pistol is inevitably going to take a leap of faith in the people of Scotland. But one that will pay big dividends once people wake up to hard reality, IMO.

      While the prospect of an EUR2 and/or a UKGE still hangs in the air, it would be premature, but it has to be as soon as the opportunity presents and while a real choice is still available.

      Indeed, there certainly will be a time, very soon, to “go for it”, but there are still just a couple of dominoes to fall…

      Just a couple, mind.

      Hold, Hold.. 🙂

    57. Proud Cybernat says:

      “Mr., Callachan I agree with all you say and I have been saying the same things on here since this site started…”

      And no one here has ever denied you (or Callachan) your right to post your views here. Most just don’t share them – and for good reason.

    58. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Blair Paterson @ 15:24,

      Well, surprise, surprise. Mutual back-slapping by the tag team Xenophobe. There isn’t an article topic from Stu that won’t be trampled all over by the pair of you in your obsessive (and fundamentally pointless) monomania.

    59. Colin Alexander says:

      The more likely it becomes that the SNP get their “People’s vote” for England, the more likely there will be no indyref2. Certainly, no indyref2 with a S30 from Westminster. Whether they could is an irrelevant question.

      Without a S30,the SNP won’t hold an indyref. They simply don’t do “Scottish sovereignty” over Westminster sovereignty. They don’t do bold or radical under Ms Sturgeon. It’s not an insult. That’s simply not her way.

      So, we’ll see what the Westminster Tories decide for Scotland.

    60. yesindyref2 says:

      Getting desperate eh, Colin? This ECJ opinion really ruffling the feathers!

    61. Maolbeatha says:

      Where is Lallands Peat worrier? It would be interesting to hear his views on the effects of all this on the treaty of Union.
      His blog has been silent since 2016 when he used a picture of Richard Keen on the post.
      Possibly the most smug looking individual I have ever had the misfortune to see.
      (Keen not Andrew Tickell that is)
      If for no other reason it would be good to see another post so I don’t have to see that smug face again!

      Scotland and England equal partners.1707
      Scottish law cannot be over ruled by English law
      What was the supreme court challenge about then?
      No taxes on Scotland if not in England.
      Poll tax?

      Scottish people are sovereign
      People voted for remain.

      We are being dragged out against the will of the people.
      Are they not three breaches of the treaty?

      Until the public get behind Independence getting out on a legal technicality would not stand. No matter how justifiable.

    62. Sinky says:

      Another shocker from BBC.

      Absolutely appalling BBC One O’clock News piece from Stirling on Brexit. “Two thirds of voters here backed the Remain campaign” then a voxpops with four people with just one backing Remain. Then “Scotland’s leader is once again *agitating* for independence”.

    63. Thepnr says:

      I see it’s always the same people that post on Wings that pop up in support of each other whenever someone disagrees with their particular opinion as to who should be entitled to a vote or not in another referendum.

      In this case Terrance callaghan and Blair Paterson would disenfranchise the English born who live in Scotland from a vote in some sort of weird belief that this would be more “democratic”?

      This is not only an unrealistic position to take but in no way can it be described as “democratic” when a vote for Independence will change substantially the lives of those that live in Scotland and not just those that were born here.

      Who else should be disenfranchised in this democratic second referendum that they hanker after?

      How about Catholics in Scotland who were denied the right to vote from 1728 to 1793, and the right to sit as an MP in parliament until 1829?

      How about only those that own property which meant that until the end of the first world war only 40% of males over 21 were eligible to vote in any UK election?

      Then there’s women of course who weren’t universally given the vote until 1928 in the UK, as only 40% of women were allowed the vote after 1918 if they were over 30 and had property when previously they had had no vote?

      Democratic elections took hundreds of years to evolve to where we are today. Every voice had a say now centuries after this supposed democracy was established in the UK.

      The only true democracy is when your voice counts if the decisions of those elected will effect you and you are given a vote.

      No matter the religion you practise, how much land you own or money you have in the bank, no matter your sex or where you were born. If that vote will have an impact on your life then you must be entitled to one. That is why Alex Salmond, the SNP and their advisors chose the system we used in the first referendum and that will be used for any subsequent referendum.

      It was chosen because it is the most democratic and the right thing to do win or lose. We’ll all just have to work harder won’t we to persuade the people of Scotland of the merits of Independence, in particular those born IN Scotland.

      Many have died seeking the right to a vote, it has been hard earned and when you start deciding who shouldn’t have one because it doesn’t suit your cause or your party or favourite candidate you are heading down a slippery slope.

      The whole idea and talk of it is anti-democratic.

    64. Arthur Thomson says:

      Brexit is the gift that will continue to keep on giving and it will ultimately facilitate independence.

      The Brits are in a corner with only bluster to protect their fragile egos. I don’t care which course of ‘action’ they blunder into, they are toast. Their conceit and contempt policy has been exposed and they have zero friends. Their biggest fear is loss of esteem and only the simple minded among them can’t see that they are less significant by the day. The EU have made them a pathetic laughing stock – the Brits don’t like it but their conceit prevents them from being rational and pursuing a policy of damage limitation. I wish them the very best as they dig their bottomless pit for victory.

      The FM will demand and get an independence referendum at the time that is best for Scotland. It will be her call and I have absolute confidence she will make it at the right time.

    65. Juteman says:

      EU citizens were not allowed to vote on the UK leaving the EU. Only fair and sensible.
      Why should English citizens be allowed to vote on Scotland de-colonising from England?
      It seems bonkers for folk to want English folk to vote on Scottish sovereignty.
      Please don’t call me a bigot or racist as many of my family are English and agree with me.

    66. Clootie says:

      The choice is rush and risk failure again OR go canny any make sure.
      Many who did more hard work than any of us didn’t live to see Independence but they did give us a better chance.

      We have waited over 300 years so let us not rush down the hill to engage the enemy but hold our ground for the right moment…and trust our leader.

    67. Dr Jim says:

      Just because all the truth has been going our way doesn’t mean the Tories are going to cave, so far they’ve facilitated their own dictatorship and stuck to it, can they keep it up

      The last straw is yet to be laid

    68. Legerwood says:

      Proud Cybernat @ 3.09 PM
      “”And this is where I think the SNP may be making a tactical mistake (if the report in The National today is correct). If we wait for indy support to go to 55% or 60% then we could be waiting a very, very long time. “”

      No it is not correct. This idea of the 60% yardstick was first reported by the BBC immediately after a speech to Confrrence by Ms Sturgeon – if I remember correctly it was her first speech as leader.

      That evening BBC Reporting Scotland reported this figure in terms of ‘the BBC understands from sources…’

      Since then it has been ‘reported’by the MSM at regular intervals in the hushed tones accorded to holy writ.

      Ms Sturgeon was very clear about the timetable in her speech in Bute House in March 2017. Since then she has only made one slight amendment to say that the timetable might be extended if the time for the Brexit exit overran.

      We do not know what the final outcome of the current situation is going to be but to call indyref2 now would not bring the wavering Nos over to Yes because they won’t want to commit if they think there is a chance of a deal.

      When the time comes, and it will soon, then we go for it Hell for leather with everything we have and never mind the polls.
      We lifted support from 25% to 45% the last time and, importantly, held on to it so we can lift it 25% the next time and be well over the line.

    69. jfngw says:

      You know that when you elect MP’s to Westminster that probably some of them will be duffers. The Tories have broken this mould and achieved a full house, 13 duffers. Completely hopeless bunch outside of being voting fodder for the head office. It’s a sight to behold, a group of totally useless MP’s.

      Difficult to mention Lab or LibDem, they mostly seem to be wearing some sort of invisible cloak, I can’t remember any meaningful contribution from any of them regarding Scotland, outside ‘no referendum’ that is.

    70. AlbertaScot says:

      Give yer heads a shake boys.

      Too many guys getting high-centred over Brexit.

      Big picture, nobody really gives a shit about Brexit. Other than the fact it has pissed a lot of Scots off which is good for our side.

      Like Stu pointed out, keep yer eye on the prize.

      To get the needle over 50, then BOOM, call the vote.

      Brexit may already have run out of gas and we’ve wrung all we can out of it.

      What’s up next?

      Something like the British Army’s secret invasion and occupation plan for Scotland would a dandy and pile on the points some more. I’ll bet there one out there somewhere.

      Remember, Brexit is simply a means to the end.

      Like I say, stay focused.

    71. Colin Alexander says:

      @yesindyref2

      Desperate about what? Under Nicola Sturgeon’s leadership,I never expected the SNP to deliver on promises of an indyref after 2014, especially with bold Eck oot the game now.

      Can you show me where the FM has said an indyref would be held even if no S30 was forthcoming and Scotland remained in the EU as part of the UK?

    72. msean says:

      I don’t listen to any BBC news anymore.Hopefully,they’ll soon be left talking to themselves.

      When we ask for devolved broadcasting,they say no. What are they afraid of,lol? Truth is,being in control of the airwaves is too handy to let devolved parliaments get any influence in their running.It makes for one sided news,that being whatever whoever dishing out the cash and appointing bosses want the news where you are to be.

      It’s not just Labour that has a branch office.

    73. Referendum1707 says:

      G 12.45

      “I know some people will never change their mind, but there must be a lot of reasonably minded people who were a bit naive and would now reconsider their No vote. Anecdotally we have all seen this. So why is it not being reflected in polls?” (my bold)

      What are you expecting to see “reflected” in polls?

      I’m not saying polls on hot button issues are all rigged, I don’t know for sure but I am pretty sure that nowadays you’d have to be quite dense to just blithely assume that polls which are often conducted by organisations which like the EC etc are firmly embedded into the fabric of the WM regime are actually reflective of true public opinion rather than an attempt to influence it?

      I have no proof but do have a strong suspicion that any polls that showed a clear and consistent increase in support for indy would never see the light of day.

    74. Juteman says:

      EU citizens were not allowed to vote on leaving the EU for perfectly sensible reasons in my opinion.
      Why should English citizens be allowed to vote on Scotland de-colonising from England?
      Before anyone calls me a bigot or a racist, many of my family are English and agree with me.

    75. Ken500 says:

      What about the VOW and all the other promises broken. The lies Cameron told. All the liars are the now. The Tories trying to rake Scottish powers etc.

      The Tories are arguing like rats in a sack. They are unbelievable. A GE eldction soon.

      See how the land lies then. If SNP/Independence gets higher support. There is no negotiation or agreement. Go for another IndyRef. Scotland is growing away, in any case. There would have to be negotiations in any case.

      So much for Nicola not mattering. May is trying to get her support for her plan. To get it through Westminster. Nicola would never vote with the Westminster Tories just to get Independence support.

      The more Independent Scotland gets the higher chance Labour has of getting power in Westminster. Labour are just too thick to realise it. They might cotton on eventually.

      Dugdale illegally telling Labour supporters to vote Tory. Increased Tory support at Westminster.

    76. Maolbeatha says:

      I can understand the views of those who want a particular group excluded from the vote.
      The thinking is to secure the result they want. If they believe a particular group are more likely to vote against the individuals desired outcome then ban them.
      Its understandable but not really practical or moral.
      To do that we would be no better than Farage etc. Or worse.

      Emotions are high frustration building perhaps a feeling that its now or never.
      I know after 2014 I thought that’s it I’ll never see it in my lifetime. But a wee while later we get another chance.
      Sometimes people let their emotions get the better of them. Its human.
      I find it hard to understand why anybody would vote against their countries independence. Then I remember for many the UK IS their country. Maybe England Wales or any other country besides is their country so Scotlands independence is just altering the status quo?
      People don’t like change, it seems.

      I want to believe the polls were/ are altered, I want to think that the 2014 was rigged and that the majority have more sense. But its just a feeling, a desire a hope.
      It changes nothing.

      Nicola said she would decide when the outcome was known.
      Maybe after the vote on the 11th?
      What happens is Brexit is binned? The greatest motivation for indy2 goes away. What then.

      The same problem exists now as existed in 2014. A large number of people are comfortable where they are and don’t want to risk change,
      A large number of people are not getting the information we see as they don’t go looking for it.
      A large number of people are so whipped they have no belief on their countries abilities.

      Change that and we have it won.
      As it should have been in 2014.

    77. Arthur Thomson says:

      I notice on the radio today that the Scottish are getting a big mention in dispatches. Naughty Scottish people, naughty naughty Scottish people. Who do they think they are influencing the Brits big moment?

      Lol.

      How long before I hear about the tail wagging the dog?

      Brexit is a matter for the Yookay don’t you know. And because the Scottish have had the temerity to open their mouths we will stick our fingers in our ears and talk over them. We’ve been doing it for years at Westminster and see how much good it has done us.

      Rule Britannia ……… The great British f..k up.

    78. Vestas says:

      @ Maolbeatha 4:01 pm

      “Where is Lallands Peat worrier?”

      Writes for The National on a fairly regular basis.

      I doubt his blog did him any favours career-wise in Scotland, so if something is going to have an adverse effect then may as well get paid for it? Also writing for a newspaper isn’t viewed with the same disdain by those in the Scots legal establishment as self-publishing is.

      Maybe try asking him? 😉

    79. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Soccerknees MacSporran says:

      “Could I suggest that, any time a Member attempts to bring-up or refer to parliamentary events prior to 1707, an SNP MP should immediately intervene with a point of order or some other device, reminding the House, the UK Parliament did not exist before 1707, and therefore, events prior to that have no relevance or historical effect, since they refer to the long-since dissolved Parliament of the Kingdom of England, not the Parliament of the United Kingdom.

      It would, of course, really upset the English MPs, but, it would remind them that they cannot assume they sit in the Parliament of Greater England.”
      _____________________________

      Which is exactly why the whole Henry the Eighth malarky has no basis or legality in the HoC.

      Except of course for Rees-Smog who hasn’t yet breached the 18-century..! 😉

    80. yesindyref2 says:

      @Thepnr
      Well said.

      I think it’s called universal suffrage, and it’s taken as you say, centuries to get here.

    81. wull2 says:

      I don’t really like popcorn, but I will buy it and give to the birds, hopefully they will use their wings and fly and tell all their friends what they have found.

    82. yesindyref2 says:

      @Colin Alexander: “Desperate about what? Under Nicola Sturgeon’s leadership …

      Desperation by you. While everyone else is laughing and thinking and plotting and scheming and debating and whispering what the ECJ AG opinion can do for Indy, you’re still trying to down the SNP and Sturgeon as your only contribution, apart from running around shouting “We’re a’ doooooomed!”

      That reminds me, time to hose down the windows and remove the salt spray so they can be as transparent as you are.

    83. Proud Cybernat says:

      O/T
      Angus Robertson
      ?
      Verified account

      @AngusRobertson

      BREAKING NEWS: Humiliating loss for the UK Government as MPs pass ‘contempt of Parliament’ motion by 311 votes to 293 on publishing Brexit legal advice.

    84. Frank Gillougley says:

      Wow!

    85. yesindyref2 says:

      OT
      New passpoprt arrived, burgundy, European Union on the top, yay. If this Brexit Faragandango happens and I get to get over, I’m not standing with the rest of the third country citizens, I’m marching up to the EU desk and when they look at me odd like, I’ll say “I voted Remain, please let me in”.

      Still time for any of youse whose passport is years out of date like mine was, the Post Office do a quick (week for me) service which includes an electronic photo and an electronic application, no need to run around trying to get a photo signed nor some stupid form for those like me, form blind, they do the lot.

      I think from 1st Jan they’re issuing those stupid blue ones?

    86. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Juteman @ 16:44,

      What Thepnr @ 16:12 said.

      Pick one group off, pick another off, then where are we?

      How many of yer actual voters must be so casually antagonised before the penny drops? Or is that maybe the real intention?

      Here we are again, doing the same old dance around a vile OT agenda set by the usual suspects…

    87. Terence callachan says:

      The pnr…..

      I think you are wrong.

      People on wings do not tend to stay “on topic” whatever that is, perhaps you have decided what it is for your own understanding of things but I would say that f you look at any wings post you will see that a wide range of topics are discussed on each wings post, people like to discuss and hear other points of view, in think the aim of wings is to encourage discussion of anything that people feel driven to discuss, long may it continue

    88. twathater says:

      Golf nut @3.06PM , WULL , BREEKS , Thanks for that golf nut you just saved me from posting the same thing , there is only one thing I would add to those letters ,

      Nicola should add that as First Minister of Scotland her electorate of which 62% voted to remain as members within the EU are sovereign and as such she has to obey their instructions and we will not be removed by force or otherwise by politicians we are unable to vote for or elect

    89. yesindyref2 says:

      @Terence callachan
      What is very noticeable is that there are some, like you, who don’t share the excitement of the ECJ opinion, or the contempt of Parliament vote Proud Cybernat posted about, but come out with things that are negative for Independence.

    90. Thepnr says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      Mel Brooks got it directing Blazing Saddles. Just my wee joke 🙂

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boO4RowROiw

    91. Ken500 says:

      May’s Gov in contempt of Parliament. The wheels are coming off. GE soon.

    92. galamcennalath says:

      BBC says Nicola is “once again agitating for independence”.

      That would be in the same way May agitates for further tax cuts and Corbyn agitates for renationalisation (allegedly)?

      It’s the democratic mission Nicola has taken as leader of the SNP and FM in a parliament with a mandate to seek independence!

    93. call me dave says:

      Government defeat not mentioned by big Auntie who preferred the headline.

      Brexit: Full legal advice to be published after contempt vote.

      🙂

    94. Thepnr says:

      @Terence callachan

      I happen to think that you are wrong but I have never attacked you personally for having that opinion and it’s only your opinion itself that I haveever posted disagreement with.

      What does bother thoiugh, me in particular is your use of false statistics to justify your arguments. You were given links (repeatedly) by myself and others to official census data that contradicted your assertions about the number of English born people living and voting in Scotland.

      Never once have you acknowledge reading any of these official figures that corrected your lies. I won’t bother addressing any of your posts again as responding to you is a waste of my time.

    95. Terence callachan says:

      To dr Jim….it’s not suggested by me that only indigenous people get to vote in Scotland .
      I was referring in my post specifically to the Scottish independence referendum.
      The “vote” as you term it , covers several different votes general election , local council election, Scottish parliament election, EU election all with rules about who can vote.
      You do know that already there are in existence differing rules about who can vote in a general election who can vote in a local election and who can vote in a referendum etc ?
      Don’t you ?

    96. Thepnr says:

      The Tory government bandwagon doesn’t have that much further to run.

      The wheels are coming off, contempt of parliament is just the first. pull up a chair, kick back and relax as the last three wheels on this wagon start to fall off one by one.

    97. Graf Midgehunter says:

      When the time comes for Indyref2, NS will call it.

      I must admit to being a bit apprehensive about it knowing that WM will do everything it can to avoid defeat.
      Voter suppression/registration, “rigged” postal voting, slander…. etc. They’ve no qualms about being ba***rds.

      It’s not entirely without risk of defeat so we should IMO also be going 100% parallel for other openings to independence.

      I’m with Breeks here that we should be excerting more use of sovereingnty. The Continuity Bill, the ECJ opinion/decision are showing that we have a large amount of leverage when carefully targeted.

      I remember all too well how the blood drained out of my body when I saw the result on 19 Sept.18. Never ever again, never.

    98. Welsh Sion says:

      O/T and apologies for BBC link. Can’t find it elsewhere at the moment.

      A piece of good news to share with Scotland,

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/cymrufyw/46440189

      The gist of the matter is that someone complained about the branding of Welsh lamb in a Morrison’s supermarket with a Butcher’s Apron. Further the labelling did not contain the EU mark PGI (Protected Geographical Indicator).

      The end of the story is that following the complaint, Morrisons have apologised. (Those of you wanting a fuller story, please translate yourselves – I have paid work to deal with at the moment!)

    99. Cubby says:

      Westminster is a total shambles. Why anyone would want to be governed by this shower is beyond me. The Britnat Tories are turning the UK into a laughing stock.

      Westminster is like a carry on film – Carry on Regardless – starring The Maybot .

    100. Terence callachan says:

      Hello Robert Sutherland …and the pnr,

      Careful , some of what you say about me is incorrect.
      With regards who should get to vote n Scottish independence
      I openly say that Scotland should apply the rules we would apply if person were applying for a passport
      That is, if they were were born here or have a parent who was born here, some people have read this sentence and been unable to grasp it because they have gone on to misinterpret it, it is very straightforward.
      I accept some people don’t agree with it but that is my view on the matter.
      Others do share my view , I’m not alone, I firmly believe that English people should not be able to vote for their country ENGLAND , to continue controlling Scotland.
      That’s a fair and justifiable view to hold, it it a view that upholds entitlement to nationality and passports across the world.
      If you were not born there and your parents were not born there you don’t qualify automatically for a passport so why should you qualify for a vote on the future of the country if you wouldn’t qualify for a passport.
      Now to take matters a step further you could allow those who would not qualify automatically to qualify on the basis of have lived in Scotland for a substantial period of time, what would that be ?
      5 yrs ? 10 yrs ? More ?
      To get British citizenship which is a necessity before applying for a passport you have to have lived in uk for 5 yrs then you have to sit a life in the UK test , should we require that ?
      It’s just not right for hundreds of thousands of English people to automatically get a vote on Scottish independence even if for example they were not born in Scotland have no Scottish relatives and have only lived in Scotland a day or one week or a few months or a year and will likely leave before too long.
      It’s just not right.
      There had to be a better fairer way .

    101. Juteman says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:

      4 December, 2018 at 5:20 pm

      Juteman @ 16:44,

      What Thepnr @ 16:12 said.

      Pick one group off, pick another off, then where are we?

      How many of yer actual voters must be so casually antagonised before the penny drops? Or is that maybe the real intention?

      Here we are again, doing the same old dance around a vile OT agenda set by the usual suspects…

      What are you on about? What are all these groups that you are picking off?

      I just said that it is crazy to give the vote to English folk in a de-colonization situation. Did every country that gained independence from England give English folk the vote?
      Play nice and we lose.

    102. Graf Midgehunter says:

      19 Sept.18.

      2014 ya clothhead 2014…!

    103. Dr Jim says:

      No business takes decisions that are bad for their business or the future of their business or to the detriment of their customers, if they did they’d go out of business

      So the question is why do the opposition to the SNP accuse them of doing just that when it would be ludicrous to take Scotland into Independence if for one second it could be bad for all those previous reasons then to continually presume that eventually even the densest of people will swallow that crap is even more ludicrous

      It never matters to Scotland who’s in charge at Westminster it always turns out the same for us up here in Jockland because down there in the big London they’re alright Carry on Jack

      We’re on the verge now, time to take back control as they say in jolly old London because when they say it they mean take away our control take away our money take away our borders take away our parliament take away our Saltire and stick a Union flag over the top of it just like they’ve done with our food

      They’ve just been voted by the HOC as being in contempt of their own Parliament what chance has ours got with this bunch of shyster dictators, they’re not even embarrassed that they’ve been proved to be liars in their own parliament they just keep pushing on to the next piece of blackmail they can think up to threaten folk with

      Lurker folk out there who are reading this stuff we all write on Wings it’s time to make a stand and take a position for the sake of our childrens country, it’s up to us to protect them and save our country while we still can for our kids to grow up in before the Tories or Labour remove all Scotland’s assets and transfer them to London

    104. hackalumpoff says:

      Joanna Cherry lays into them, bring it on!

      https://twitter.com/GrayInGlasgow/status/1070012341335572481

    105. Colin Alexander says:

      @yesindyref2

      I never said we’re aw doomed. Please don’t mislead.

      IF Scotland ends up staying in the EU as part of the UK, on balance, that’s probably better than the UK / Scotland leaving the EU.

      Probably the worst scenario is Scotland still part of the UK, and the UK being out of the EU with all the power concentrated at Westminster and Scotland’s economy further damaged along with the devolution power grab. That remains a scary possibility.
      ——————–

      As for indyref, it’s probably always been the case that the UK Govt wouldn’t give an S30 for an indyref where YES has reasonable prospects of winning.

      I believe the FM has recently said indyref is the only way to go, the gold standard.

      Unless the FM announces very soon that an indyref will be held without a WM S30, it’s fair comment to say it’s unlikely there will be an indyref under this current Scottish Parliament’s mandate for indyref.

      If you think different, I invite you to explain your reasoning / evidence.

    106. manandboy says:

      Read a tweet today, sorry can’t trace it, in which Tory Party leaders have instructed all their MP’s to get out among the electorate – but to make sure a cameraman is with them!
      If that’s the case then, the runners and riders will soon be leaving the parade ring!

    107. Thepnr says:

      Here’s an archive link to the translated story Welsh Sion posted earlier about Welsh lamb and the labelling of it under it’s protected status.

      http://archive.fo/QecZC

      I don’t know if all Welsh lamb and beef has protected status but some Scottish lamb and beef does. Only some mind but if you ever come across any that is protected and labelled with a Union flag then you know what to do 🙂

      https://www.gov.scot/news/scottish-protected-food-names-under-threat/

    108. Dan Huil says:

      @Welsh Sion 5:53pm

      Good news indeed. Kudos to the person who took on Morrisons.

    109. Tom Busza says:

      So I am to be disenfranchised next time there’s a referendum for Scottish Independence?
      I was born in Italy some 70 years ago to a Polish father and Italian mother. Came to UKat 6 months of age (didn’t have any choice at the time , nor did my parents have any choice other than end up in Newmarket). We moved to West Midlands shortly thereafter. I moved to Highlands some 15 years ago and have stayed there since. Why? Besides personal reasons, I understood that life in Scotland was preferable to life in England. (I have not been disappointed). Don’t ask about my thoughts on the attitude of the general English people.
      I did not move here for a nice retirement – I retired 5 years ago on a state pension only.
      2014, I voted YES because I thought it was the right thing for Scotland. I still think it’s the right thing for Scotland, so come IndyRef2, I’ll again put a cross in the YES box, if that is the box for Scottish Independence.
      I have never missed an election in my life and have always voted according to my own conscience.
      So do not write off anyone who is not a “true” Scot, whatever that is. A bit like saying a “pure” Englishman – there ain’t no such animal.

    110. Cubby says:

      Colin Alexander starting to sound like Rock.

      Wait a minute could they be one and the same.

      Rock = Colin Alexander = Rockshit = Britnats paid to troll.

    111. schrodingers cat says:

      @pnr

      it is the soft brexiteers in the tory party who are being destroyed, not rees mogg or bojo, it will be they who will emerge victorious with the tory party

      for the moment, they are they are content to see the snp and labour doing their dirty work for them, ie defeat treezas agreement, force her to resign and call a vote of no confidence

      then the new tory leader will dissolve parliament and call a ge

      polling shows 40+% of voters in england favour of a no deal

      it makes perfect sense if you are rees mogg to go down this route

      mundell and davidson will be devasted with no where to turn

      bring it on

    112. manandboy says:

      On who qualifies to vote in IndyRef2.
      Failing agreement, and since we consider ourselves very pro European, why not do what the majority of the 27 EU members do.

    113. Macart says:

      @Tom Busza

      Well said. 🙂

    114. Dan Huil says:

      Tom Busza 6:17pm

      Well said, Tom.

    115. manandboy says:

      To say that anyone who ‘feels’ Scottish, or anyone who wants to be Scottish, IS Scottish, is risking ridicule.
      There are clear definitions and descriptions of what it is to be German, Russian, Canadian or Scottish. To deviate from these would simply be to demonstrate that we are perhaps not ready to manage an Independent Scotland.

    116. So now the Tory party has been accused of being in Contempt of WM Parliament. the question is, who are the MP’s who voted against the Tories to give the contempt vote a majority of 18

      DUP plus who in the Tories?

    117. manandboy says:

      Tom Busza 6:17pm

      Well said, Tom. Not a problem.

    118. Thepnr says:

      @hackalumpoff

      Ms Cherry is a class act indeed, especially at Westminster 🙂

      https://twitter.com/GrayInGlasgow/status/1070012341335572481

      @Tom Busza

      Great to hear your voice on Wings, I agree with every word.

    119. Arthur Thomson says:

      @ Tom Busza

      Well said.

    120. Cubby says:

      Helena Brown@12.46pm

      It just needs Scotlands political representatives at Westminster to have the will to do so and believe they will be backed by the majority of Scots and the Scottish parliament.

    121. Cubby says:

      Manandboy@12.10pm

      A cartoon to that effect would be a vote winner.

    122. G says:

      @Referendum1707

      Well, that’s certainly one possible explanation, and I wouldn’t be surprised if actual support was slightly higher than current polls suggest. You say you don’t have any proof that the polls are rigged, but do you have any evidence? If not, isn’t it a bit of an intellectual leap? If the SNP private polling was showing support much higher than the rigged establishment polls wouldn’t they mention this?

      I’m not making any particular point, just asking the question.

    123. Proud Cybernat says:

      “I’m with Breeks here that we should be excerting more use of sovereingnty.”

      As far as I can see, no one is actually questioning the sovereignty of the people of Scotland, that we are indeed a sovereign people. Indeed, our sovereignty was very recently re-affirmed in WM (of all places).

      And I am sure in a court of law we can demonstrate how our sovereignty has been disrespected over the centuries by WM. Those are legal matters for a court of law. But what that court cannot say is that the Treaty of Union has been broken as a result because that is a POLITICAL decision which courts do not and will not enter into.

      Our sovereignty is expressed through the democratic process whether that be a majority in a referendum, GE or SE.

      When the FM fires the starting gun for IR2 (and she WILL) THEN (and ONLY THEN) will we see a significant shift in the polls because only when the campaign begins in earnest will folks not normally interested in politics engage themselves and the smart ones will listen to BOTH sides of the debate and not just what the BBC / SMSM tells them.

      I am absolutely convinced that the people of Scotland WILL exercise their sovereignty in IR2 with a substantial YES victory. I was somewhat doubtful in 2014 but absolutely NOT this time. This time YES will WIN and WILL WIN handsomely. No doubt in my mind about that whatsoever.

    124. T May now cutting a pathetic figure as she threatens MP ‘s that if her deal is rejected and they ask the Eu to re-open negotiations, it could have a serious effect on the deal currently agreed on Fishing rights.

      How can she spout this ongoing rubbish. Does she actually think MP’s are suddenly going to change their minds – just like that?

      Seems the Scottish Tories all towed the Party line on the contempt vote.

    125. msean says:

      Everyone who is resident here in Scotland, who is registered to vote in Scotland,should be allowed to vote. What needs to be looked at is the postal vote set up.

    126. Gfaetheblock says:

      G @12.45

      Ignoring geoo (who went after me on the weekend and is strugglng with a difference between a website poll and polling companies that are members of the BOC) and the general pile on re polling fro a website that commissions polls, let me answer your question.

      I voted No last time. I am dismayed by Brexit. But Indy in EU when rUK is in EU is a much easier sell that either Indy out of EU, or even Indy in EU but rUK out of EU.

      Put another way, post brexit UK is worse that current UK, but it makes iScot more challenging to agree for soft Nos.

    127. Brian Cahill says:

      No postal vote, referendum should be monitored by the E.U. or the U.N.

    128. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      I was born in England. I’ve lived in Scotland just shy of 30 years. So according to pretend blood & soil commentators here I should not be allowed to vote on Scottish independence.

      My daughter moved to Scotland from England at 5 months old.She is now 28.Would you not allow her a vote?

      My parents were both English born. Lived in Scotland 28 years. No vote for them?

      Congratulations. You have just lost 4 yes votes.

      If all Scottish born people had that attitude I would not be comfortable in this wonderful country.

      Thank God you are in a very sad minority.

      I identify as a Scot & so does my family. A new Scot as Alex said.

      No bloody cringe here!

    129. Proud Cybernat says:

      O/T

      Nick Eardley
      ?
      Verified account

      @nickeardleybbc

      One Whitehall source admits sense of “panic” tonight

    130. geeo says:

      @gfaetheblock.

      Inventing stuff that never happened again, i see.

      What happened at the weekend ?

      As for my poll comments, you just demonstrated you did not understand it.

      Would you like it written in crayon ?

    131. Proud Cybernat says:

      What Elizabeth Stanley said.

      Well said that wummin!!

    132. pipinghot says:

      I believe there are mandatory rules regarding age limits and driving unless you can pass a further competency test, perhaps this should be considered for voting. Why should the old tory farts who had it all dictate what happens to our kids. The UK is a septic tank long overdue a good clean out, but the largest turds in there are proud Scot but 70+ brown submarines. Before anybody gets on their high horse I personally would have no issue with max age for vote.

    133. Thepnr says:

      @Gfaetheblock

      I think you’ve posted here at least as long as I have if not longer and I only remember once disagreeing with something you had posted. I’ve no idea what that was about but I was obviously disagreeing with what you had to say and not your right to say it.

      I doubt it would be easy for me to go onto a pro Unionist website and oppose everything they say without expecting some comeback or to be booted off posting altogether as happened in 2014 by the Herald.

      I think it’s important that people don’t get banned from Wings for having differing views. However their views needn’t be rammed down our throats with 20 posts a topic without addressing legitimate questions put to them.

      That’s not putting the other side of the argument as far as I’m concerned, it’s abuse of the forum. Anyone can come here and put their case, thinking back Sensible Dave did for a long time. Sure he took a bit of stick but nothing over the top, others are different and are not interested in discussing the merits or otherwise of Independence.

      For them I have no time at all as you might have noticed.

    134. Dr Jim says:

      Today Theresa May told Angus Brendan McNeill in no uncertain terms there would be no referendum on Scottish Independence ever 2014 blah blah blah (paraphrasing)

      If a second referendum on Brexit were to take place that would set a precedent for a plebicite for Scotland and when those Labour and Lib Dem MPs realise that they’ll change their minds pronto and Theresa May will make sure they do realise it

      So where does that leave Scotland given that we know Theresa May will without question refuse the section 30 order to create legal acceptance of the result of any Scottish referendum because she knows YES would win

      This goes back to what Alex Salmond said a couple of years ago when asked said that he would proceed with a referendum then put that result to the United Nations (to which the UK is signatory) whose articles stipulate any country in a Union can secede from that Union any time they wish should a majority decide by legal methods (the UK are doing it now)

      If the UK government do indeed refuse to agree to such a request for a section 30 it would be for an unprecedented second time and I believe two things

      Option 1 A referendum would take place because the UK have no authority to prevent one and the results handed to the UN
      Option 2 The Scottish government takes the UK government to European court of Justice because we’ll still be in the EU, and once again the Scottish government will win yet another legal case over the UK and a UK sanctioned referendum takes place anyway

      So either way Scotland wins this and the UK loses, again, I’m beginning to lose count now of how many times the UK government are losing court cases to the Scottish government

      You just can’t get away with Uganda style politics when you’re legally in the wrong

    135. Immigrants that come to Scotland to stay and bring up family whether they are from England or Syria are welcome and are entitled to vote in Indy 2,

      Immigrants that are here for the short term and have no intention of staying long term or bringing up a family here should not be entitled to vote on the future of Scotland,

      so a 5 year main residence qualification,although not perfect,should diplomatically assuage both sides of the argument.

      Conversation not confrontation.

    136. yesindyref2 says:

      My goodness gracious gosh oh golly.

      Not content with anti-English, it’s now moved on to postal votes for those like me who can’t guarantee being anywhere near home on polling day – a Thursday in Scotland as well as the rUK – meaning I’d have to stay home all week. Or for those who can’t make it to their nearest polling station because they’re too far, no buses, can’t manage a 6 mile walk, or are just a little housebound. Or working temporarily “abroad”, maybe even down sarf.

      Not to mention the silly old farts like me. Or my wife whose country invented Independence from the UK and really really would not like to be called “British”.

      What would Derek Nimmo say about it all?

    137. ScottieDog says:

      Both my parents – Scottish born and bred – voted NO

    138. yesindyref2 says:

      I think Gfaetheblock is pretty genuine. Did vote NO, I feel may vote YES next time.

      There’s even rabid strong anti-Indy, anti-SNP, anti-EU Brexiteers are so shocked at the total numptie-wumptie UK Gov’s handling, they (well, he elsewhere) wants Brexit cancelled, and the UK to go back and do it properly in a few years time.

      This is fertile ground for Indy supporters to win hearts and minds.

    139. Bob Mack says:

      If Scotland relied on blood and soil Nationalism for independence, you would probably get around 1000 votes following DNA testing of course.

      We have exported people all over the world,often creating rich racial mixes, whilst retaining a sense of history.
      Caledonia clubs abound on every Continent, populated by every colour, creed, and status.

      You try telling them they are not Scots. They would have you for breakfast. They are proud of their ancestry and heritage.

      Being a Scot is not about living here or even working here.
      It is about a shared value and admiration that our nation has experienced hardships and endured for hundreds and hundreds of years. I cannot rob you of these things. You either have them or you do not.

      Take a real Scot like Harry Lauder ( snigger), Did his buffoonish potrayal make him more deserving of a vote than English for yes who have come to love this country and view it as home. Lauder preferred America.

      Blood and soil? Shit on a stick.

    140. Dr Jim says:

      No taxation without representation
      If people pay tax they vote, it’s simple, no colour no religion no ethnic whoever excluded, the people are the people and if you say some of them aren’t you’re being 1930s Germany and people who espouse that behaviour are the people causing the trouble in the world like the British Nazionalists who are in power right now or maybe there’d be a preference for the other Stalinist lot down there

      I wrote this yesterday, It’s not the people who are the problem it’s the people who brainwash the people

      Jeezus I almost feel sorry for the folk down south they have nobody to vote for that’s not as bad as the other and that’s not their fault either because without the SNP we’d be in the same shit as them

    141. Gfaetheblock says:

      Thepnr,

      Likewise, I am just genuinely fascinated by the debate, but do try to not over post. I have been here since news net Scotland started editing posts and getting a bit strange.

      It’s a shame things have been getting a bit techy of late, which is a shame, as whatever plays out, we all have to live here.

    142. galamcennalath says:

      Chan 4 claiming first time a UK gov has never been found in contemp before.

      History in the making, eh! And more to come.

    143. Dan Huil says:

      @Yesindyref2 7:43pm

      “What would Derek Nimmo say about it all?”

      Don’t know, though it would probably take him a couple of hours to say it.

    144. frogesque says:

      From what little I’ve seen tonight, and it is very little, it’s my considered opinion that yon Big Hoosie on yon River Cespit is about to spontaneously combust.

      My considered opinion is it would be “a good thing”

      Can we please have all our MPs back at Holyrood for some sensible grown up debates? Pretty, pretty please?

    145. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dan Huil
      Probably a whole series 🙂

    146. yesindyref2 says:

      @frogesque
      Well, what I think it means is that the UK Parliament is taking back control from the UK Government. It’s democracy that’s going to be the winner, a return to it.

      Same thing is happening in the EU, as the Parliament takes back control from the EC (Commission). It’s why the EU is becoming more democratic by the day, and perhaps the likes of Barroso and Van Rompuy part of history.

      It’s not neccessarily good news for Indy ref 2 all the same.

    147. geeo says:

      @Dr Jim.

      Even Farage has quit the Kippers due to links to Tommy Robinson (aka Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon).

      Why Tommy Robinson ?

      Apparently it is the name of an infamous football hooligan and fake tommy was envious of his infamy.

      He of course has history of using fake names.
      ….
      EDL leader jailed for being illegal immigrant after entering US on friend’s passportThe leader of the English Defence League was today jailed for 10 months after admitting using someone else’s passport to unlawfully travel to the United States.
      ………

      Nice to see, even Farage has some standards left…he said sarcastically.

    148. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      Oh,I’ve never thought of myself as an immigrant.

      I’d really like to know how you would implement & police your 5 year residence rule.

      How much would it cost the long suffering tax payer?

      I am definitely not diplomatically assuaged.

    149. Ian Blackford talking to an almost empty House of Commons in this evening’s debate.

    150. Can EU citizens vote in a UK General Election.

    151. G says:

      @Gfaetheblock 6:57pm

      Thanks for the reply. Do you think the reservations about an rUK out of the EU are to do with economics, possible restrictions on freedom of movement, or something else? My feeling on it is along the lines of “well, that’s up to them”, but I daresay that’s not going to reassure anyone concerned about the implications.

      On the issue of the franchise, going down some kind of ethnocentric route would be immoral, in my opinion, and I’m sure we would lose more votes than we gained. It was disgusting that EU citizens were denied a vote in the EU referendum. It would not be a good starting point for going back out into the world as an independent country, or for national unity.

    152. galamcennalath says:

      Scot Finlayson says:

      Can EU citizens vote in a UK General Election.

      No. I know a Dutch couple who were furious. They had voted various other times but not GEs and EURef.

      All wrong. They pay taxes, they should get to vote.

    153. ronnie anderson says:

      Elizabeth Stanley Roon aboot the garden kicking teddy bears , this right to vote has been aired on Wings many times Ignore the Erseholes & their anti english & every ither furriner rhetoric, we’re a mongrel nation of Scots .

    154. G says:

      @Scot Finlayson

      No, my understanding is that EU citizens can vote in “local” elections but not “national” elections. In Scotland, they can vote in Holyrood elections and council elections but not in Westminster elections.

    155. Could EU citizens vote in the UK Brexit Referendum.

    156. Robert Peffers says:

      @Terence callachan says: 4 December, 2018 at 1:54 pm:

      ” … Here’s a little help for those people on here who think that race and nationality are the same thing… “

      Terence, We know, we know.

      What you fail to realise is that for the purpose of anti-discrimination legislation the law makes no difference between the terms and thus the crime is equally applicable to both.

      In effect the person abused because they belong to a different nation is just as unjustifiably treated as the person ill treated due to their colour or other racial characteristic.

      Mind you the person discriminated because they are old, young, of a different religion/sect or have a different sexual orientation or any other reason are equally discriminated against.

      However, in the case of nationality or race the law is the same law.

    157. Lochside says:

      Nicola Sturgeon has made it clear that we can only go down the Indyref2 road…fair enough, that is the SG mandate. But why would both Houses of Parliament give the agreement to the Section 30? as is stipulated in this piece of Reserved legislation?

      Why has the Act of Union never been the route map for dissolving the Union? After all, an equal union, as the Act of Union supposedly is should , in constitutional Law, be a basis for one party to initiate the dissolution of a negotiated break as per Brexit. Particularly when only two equal partners exist, not 28. This was the obvious historical and legitimate approach internationally for addressing the multiple breaches of the Union, not a one off plebiscite flawed by postal fraud; electoral interference during purdah; and voting by thousands of temporary non Scottish residents with holiday homes etc.

      Nicola Sturgeon has belatedly backed the disastrous ‘People’s Vote’ i.e. another feeble handing over of our fate to English votes Why?, because of a lack of evidence of support for a majority in favour of Indy in Scotland.

      I have to accept that is likely, as the SNP will have very good polling intention data. But again, Why no majority after 4 years of catastrophic WM ‘government’?

      Well, I believe because the SNP have distanced themselves from the whole argument of Independence. The evidence being the clear separation between the ‘YES’ marches and rallies and the SNP Leadership. For instance, where was the leadership at this years’ rallies? e.g why did Nicola feel it was appropriate to lead the ‘Pride’ march, but not the Edinburgh mass rally?
      Why are disparate ‘YES’ groups left to put out adhoc leaflets and ‘Nationals’ piecemeal?

      From the loss of courage in 2015 onwards to build on the mass membership recruitment by proselytising the Independence case and attacking the Unionists at every opportunity over their lies, the momentum has never been achieved amongst the 10-20% that can be persuaded to move them over. A coherent programme for dealing with the BBC and the yellow press is still absent. Where’s the Rebuttal Unit btw?

      Unfortunately, I think that Scotland’s fate will once again, as was the case in the last UK wide constitutional f*ck up during the 17th century, will be resolved by civil disobedience and strife in Ireland and England because as then and now because of the exercise of Absolute Sovereignty ( this time by the English parliamentary majority) being imposed unilaterally on the peoples of these islands.

    158. geeo says:

      Lochside in lengthy drivel shocker.

      SNP BAD etc…

      Someones not been paying attention.

    159. Ken500 says:

      They can only vote in local and EU elections. Look on the council tax form. The ones legible to bite are on the back. It is the same in other EU countries. EU citizens are allowed to vote in local, some regional elections, where appropriate and EU elections.

      The migrants voted NO in the IndyRef because they were told they would have been out of the EU. They would have had to vote YES to make a difference.

    160. G says:

      I have to say I do think it’s one hell of a brass neck to move to a country (from anywhere) and then vote against its independence, but what can you do. That’s democracy. You can’t start excluding people based on some notion of ethnic origin. As Ronnie says, we’re a mongrel nation.

    161. Legerwood says:

      During the first independence referendum Mr Salmond, and many others, used the term ‘People of Scotland’. All inclusive as it should be of everyone who lives in Scotland whether born here or choosing to move here.

      Lets continue to use that one. In the end it is not who has or has not the right to vote but whether the conduct of the vote is secure and robust enough to prevent tampering or any suggestion of tampering.

    162. Thepnr says:

      @Lochside

      The Scottish government would have a mandate to dissolve the Treaty of Union with England if they ask and the Scottish electorate give them such a mandate.

      It really couldn’t be any clearer than that to my mind, they will have a mandate if they first ask and we give them one in a majority vote. Another name for that mandate is a referendum.

    163. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Scot Finlayson @ 20:22,

      No, they can’t participate in UK general elections. They have to vote for their own country’s governmental elections instead.

      Hmmm, not sure if under EU rules that would (have to) be the same for general elections in an independent Scotland. Ironic, if so.

    164. Ken500 says:

      EU citizens could not vote in the Brexit Ref. Cameron would not let them. Ex-pats who had been away for 15 years could apply/ register for a vote. So could Brits resident in other EU countries. Would they have needed a UK address?

    165. Shinty says:

      @ Elizabeth Stanley, I thought it was pretty much understood that there was a min. residency period of 5 years for anyone from outside Scotland voting in an indyref. (Whether you come from England or Egypt)

      Would be pretty much open to abuse otherwise.

    166. Ken500 says:

      If the migrants had not been allowed to vote. The result (NO) would have been the same. They would have had to vote YES en masse to make a difference.

    167. Lochside says:

      Geeo…I know you are a loyal and unquestioning SNP supporter at all costs, who attacks anyone who isn’t on message with you at the drop of a hat…but that’s fine. Just stop resorting to insult and then run greeting to the ‘site adjudicator’ when someone gives you some of the same back.

      I have been commentating on here for years and sparingly…maybe you should follow suit?

    168. Ken500 says:

      The ones legible to vote (bite?) are on the back of the council tax form. ie Local elections.

    169. Ken500 says:

      Patience is a virtue, It is better to have an IndyRef when it can be won. Not during a GE which is highly likely. If support is up for SNP/Independence. It supports another IndyRef.

      Scotland us growing away in any case. The Tories are in disarray. Once Labour realised the more Independent Scotland gets the more likely Labour would be in power at Westminster.

      Labour telling supporters to vote Tory is not only illegal it is ridiculous.

    170. Thepnr says:

      @G

      I have to say I do think it’s one hell of a brass neck to move to a country (from anywhere) and then vote against its independence, but what can you do.

      I totally agree, I very much doubt I could ever bring myself to vote for say Welsh Independence or Northern Irish reunification just because I was living there at the time.

      I’m pretty sure that’s how many newly welcome to live in Scotland will feel too. Circumstances differ for everyone though and at least if people are given the opportunity to vote rather than be simply excluded they can make their own minds up.

      We’ve had a couple of posts today from Yes Independence supporters that did just that and all circumstances are different. Some who have made there lives here and intend to keep doing so I find are more likely to support Independence than not.

    171. schrodingers cat says:

      the snp are putting forward a compromise, appealing to the majority of people in scotland, not just yessers

      it makes them look professional, compassionate and competent to the majority of people (remainers) not just in scotland but across the whole of the uk.

      it has been pointed out by many that supporting euref2 or stopping brexit, and the compromise position efta membership (ie staying in sm/cu) would undermine our mandate for indyref2

      this is entirely true

      however, this is politics, it is like poker.

      nicola supports these position simply because there is no chance of any of them being agreed to by wm.

      remember, both labour and tories campaigned in the last election to leave the eu, the sm and the cu and both opposed euref2

      when this goat rodeo is over, the snp will walk away with their reputations intact and that the peoples perception in scotland will be that they did everything they could and that any reasonable person would agree they are justified in calling indyref2

    172. Thepnr says:

      Read my last post and for the avoidance of doubt I wouldn’t vote for either option believing it none of my business unless I had say lived there a good length of time had family there and intended to keep on living there.

      Otherwise none of my business.

    173. Ken500 says:

      Nigel Farague quits UKIP

      That went well.

    174. Lochside says:

      Thepnr…..but how do you get a mandate, when a Section 30 is required to legitimise it being carried out and has to come from WM otherwise a Catalonia situ? And how do you stop its process being usurped by all the dirty tricks such as last time? Finally, why did our SG not approach directly the EU and UN for recognition over the breach of the Union by the anti-democratic ripping out of our EU membership in the first place?..Surely some international debate at that level would have engaged a lot of uninvolved voters?

    175. Ken500 says:

      Lockerbie on Channel 5

    176. yesindyref2 says:

      For the definitive on “anti-English” being a crime there’s this:

      The term racial group has been held to include the English and our research found several prosecutions which were brought against accused using anti-English language. Our informants felt that this was an appropriate use of the racist crime provisions.

      https://www2.gov.scot/Publications/2002/05/14608/3653

    177. Shinty says:

      Different rules for local, national, general & EU elections.

      https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons/lib/research/briefings/snpc-02208.pdf

    178. schrodingers cat says:

      anna soubry, tory mp, slaughtering treezas deal. she wont vote for it

    179. Ken500 says:

      The UK is not out of the EU yet. It looks highly unlikely it will be.

      People voted NO four years ago. The SNP had to respect that vote. Wait until the time comes for another IndyRef when the support is there and guaranteed?

    180. Graf Midgehunter says:

      galamcennalath says:

      Scot Finlayson says:

      “Can EU citizens vote in a UK General Election.

      No. I know a Dutch couple who were furious. They had voted various other times but not GEs and EURef.

      All wrong. They pay taxes, they should get to vote”
      ______________________________________

      In Germany I can vote in local, communal and EU elections-(for all EU citizens) but not in State or Länder (County) elections which are considered sovereign German citizens rights.

      AFAIK this is also the case in all/most? EU countries.

    181. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Shinty @ 20:42,

      I’m not sure where your “understanding” comes from, but the only requirement is to have your name on the electoral register, and the only necessities for that are age, relevant citizenship and to be “normally resident” in Scotland. The register is typically updated once a year (for which each household is normally prompted) but any individual who is entitled can register at any time.

      The one thing the xenophobes won’t address, for all their endlessly-repeated hateful wishful thinking, is that those eligibility rules are not going to change.

    182. Cactus says:

      Hehe been listening and laughing earlier (on the wireless radio) to the audio feed of the ever political chaos unfolding frae the House of Commons… hey mibbies the EU should step in to arbitrate here here hehe (being the bigger adult body.) 🙂 🙂 🙂

      BREAKING: News just in…

      “Due to all the supermarket store shelves now being emptied of popping-corn, there are reports coming in of the People driving in their droves to cinema foyers throughout Scotland, furran emergency ‘carry-oot’ and in the process are clearing out their stocks of pre-popped corn…

      Additional reports stating that it don’t stop there… many of the People are stocking up on hot-dogs, nachos with salsa, cheese n chilles, large soda (with no sugar), slushee’s (with no sugar), milk chocolate coated raisinuts and large bags of assorted sugar coated sweeties, who are then returning to their HOMES to enjoy the show!”

      How do you eat yours… salted, sweety or both, honey?

      Crazy Davy Cameron was correct on one thing and one thing only:
      Westminster cannae stand in Scotland’s way.

    183. schrodingers cat says:

      why did our SG not approach directly the EU and UN for recognition over the breach of the Union by the anti-democratic ripping out of our EU membership in the first place?

      sorry, the eu is a trading block, not a state. it has no power to pronounce on such issues. the 28 have never given them such powers.

      as for the UN, i have worn the UN blue beret, when my unit was relieved, we collectively burnt all of the blue berets in front of our replacements.

      the un would bile their grunnies down fer glue for political gain and the idea they would defy the wishes of wm, one of the 5 permenant members, is for the birds

    184. Rock says:

      Helena Brown says:
      4 December, 2018 at 12:46 pm

      “If the 1707 treaty was an actual treaty between two then independent countries why is there this difficulty in dissolving it?”

      In 1707, the “sovereign” “plebs” did not have the right to vote.

      How a “pleb” can be “sovereign” without having the right to vote, only God and Robert Peffers know.

      Westminster gave the “plebs” the right to vote.

      Which they “democratically” used to prevent dissolving the treaty of union in 2014.

      The rest is history.

      But no need to panic. When the next independence referendum is held in 2640 AD, Yes will win and the treaty will be democratically dissolved.

    185. schrodingers cat says:

      cant believe the labour mps now bitching about the a50 bill, when they opposed alex salmonds ammendent on the limitations of the bill.

    186. G says:

      @Thepnr

      Yes, I remember seeing a student being interviewed in 2014 who was going to vote No because the vote affected “everyone in the UK, not just Scotland”. To me, that is someone who is not planning to make a life here, does not consider themselves Scottish, and is not voting in the interests of the people of Scotland. There are also some people that come here for work who have a bit of an “expat” mentality, at least to begin with. Perhaps it dissipates over time.

      I know personally a few European and English Scots who voted Yes. I have no idea whether they consider themselves Scots, but I would feel outraged if they were denied the vote. I would like to think I would feel the same even if they voted No. On the other hand, if someone from, say, France voted No I would be inclined to think “my family fought and died for your independence, and you vote against mine”.

    187. Rock says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      4 December, 2018 at 9:18 pm

      “the un would bile their grunnies down fer glue for political gain and the idea they would defy the wishes of wm, one of the 5 permenant members, is for the birds”

      The UN might not defy Westminster.

      But surely Nicola, Scotland’s most powerful woman, is going to defy Westminster by holding an independence referendum without a Section 30 order?

      Before 2640 AD that is.

    188. Fergus Green says:

      and they would have gotten away with it if it hadn’t been for them pesky Scots!

      Drat and double drat.

    189. Al Dossary says:

      Well I have just sat and listened through about 3 hours of Westminster debate. A few things I have tonight come to fully appreciate.

      1. I hate Tories. All Tories. Especially Scottish Tories. Not as much as Theresa May though.

      2. I never realised how much I hated Corbyn and his ilk. I now realise that I hate him almost as much as point #1 (although not as much as Hilary Benn, my hatred of whom possibly is equal to #1)

      3. Just to confound my rapidly escalating scale of hatred for the leaders of the 2 Tory partues, up pops Mr “£350M a week to the NHS”. I DO hate that buffoon – as much as #1 & #2 combined !

      I just wish the English would get on with their Brexit so we can get the hell out of dodge.

    190. Thepnr says:

      @Lochside

      I can’t answer the question as to the best way of achieving a mandate without a Section 30 order, there appear to be various opinions such as a referendum without a Section 30 order or a majority in any election for parties specifically supporting Independence.

      The truth I guess is that we just don’t know the best way as yet, all these questions remain hypothetical for now though until there is a demand for a referendum.

      I see that coming in the not too distant future, lets get Brexshit out of the way first then we can focus our energies on getting what we need among that disarray that is left of Westminster Parliamentary authority.

      I really believe that things have been going our way since the tragedy of the result in 2014, can’t be too long now before we are put out of our misery and will know one way or the other.

      The important thing is that the wounded haven’t been bayoneted and that we’re still standing and the fight for Independence goes on much to the disgust of the British Nationalist.

      Quebec as you know had an Independence referendum in 1980, the Yes side lost 60% to 40 %.

      It wasn’t until 1995 that they had a second referendum after leading the polls narrowly for a good while. Once again they lost this time by 50.58% to 49.42%.

      No sign soon of a third referendum and in fact after the second loss the main Independence supporting party “Parti Québécois” went into decline. In 1994 it had gained 44.75% of the popular vote and won 77 out of 125 of the Quebec seats.

      After the second referendum it went all downhill from there slowly but surely. This year they got 10 of the 175 seats with 17% of the vote.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parti_Qu%C3%A9b%C3%A9cois

      The morale of this tale? Don’t fuck it up the second time.

    191. Lochside says:

      The EU’s ‘Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union’ covers individual political rights. And nobody said the UN or EU would intervene but the publicity would raise the unfairness of Scotland’s situation in the minds of our undecided voters. Also Kososvo was recognised by the EU.

    192. schrodingers cat says:

      @rock

      forget it

      i find stranger looking insects than you in my cornflake’s packet every morning

    193. Just checked on who Norway allows to vote in their GE,

      `Only Norwegian citizens can vote in the Parliamentary elections, but foreigners who have lived in Norway for three years continuously can vote in the local elections`

      it seems a residency qualification is seen as ok by such a democratic and modern country as Norway.

    194. Rock says:

      Ken500 says:
      4 December, 2018 at 9:10 pm

      “The UK is not out of the EU yet. It looks highly unlikely it will be.

      People voted NO four years ago. The SNP had to respect that vote. Wait until the time comes for another IndyRef when the support is there and guaranteed?”

      The powers that be, both in the UK and EU, never wanted Brexit to happen.

      And it seems they may succeed after all, with the blame put on the Scots.

      If the UK remains in the EU, the SNP loses the argument about holding an independence referendum any time soon because, in your own words, “People voted NO four years ago. The SNP had to respect that vote.”

      Scotland is doomed until 2640 AD.

    195. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      G says: at 12.46

      How do you know independence support isn’t at 60%. Do you base this opinion on newspaper “polls”?

    196. Robert Peffers says:

      @Terence callachan says: 4 December, 2018 at 2:05 pm:

      ” … I have been called a racist on here because I believe that English people no matter where they live should not have a vote on Scottish independence.
      I’m not a racist.”

      For the purpose of the anti-discrimination law of the United Kingdom you are.

      In the eyes of the law of the Kingdom of Scotland you are also a racist. Scots law does, and never has, designated the population of Scotland by land of birth.

      The only organisations in Scotland that do so, or rather did so, were the various sporting organisations like the Scottish Football Association and the Scottish Football and Rugby leagues. This was mainly because of what they called, “The Home Internationals”, that involved only the United Kingdom countries and the Republic of Ireland.

      For the purpose of law the definition was, and is, anyone of any race, creed or colour who is mainly resident in Scotland and who is registered to vote in Scottish elections, (or pays tax as a resident Scot).

      So if you believe that English born people should be banned from voting in Scotland you are indeed a racist. I’ll give you an example of how idiotic the sporting organisations were.

      Two of the finest centre forwards it has been my pleasure to watch were Joe & Jerry Baker. Neither ever played for Scotland but they both had a Scottish mother and father but their father was an officer in the British Army.

      Joe Baker was born in England when his father was stationed in England and Jerry was born in the USA when his father was seconded to the USA military. The Lads were both as Scottish as I am and I had a Scots mother and father and was born in the Lothians.

      BTW: Joe was really so good that he was capped for the English Football international football team. |

    197. Dr Jim says:

      The voting franchise is what it is and that’s it however I wouldn’t vote in another country’s elections out of good manners ….but the people who have bad intent don’t have good manners but again you can’t discriminate as to who is going to do what when so fairness for all is what the SNP decided and it seems pretty fair to me because I voted for it

      For folk who don’t agree there are other parties available to vote for
      You can have the British Nazionalists or the other British Stalinalists take yer pick there are branch offices of them in Scotland

    198. schrodingers cat says:

      nobody said the UN or EU would intervene but the publicity would raise the unfairness of Scotland’s situation
      ————

      the eu already pushed out the boat for us, after the euref, 2 of the 3 presidents in the eu met with nicola, not everyone in the eu was happy with this, for obvious reasons

      in the subsequent 2017 election, snp support fell from 49,5% to 38%

      that is what has driven the eu position

      until we have a ge, he or indyref, we will get nothing from the eu.

      empty political manouvers like appealing to the eu or the un are not even worthy of a political stunt

    199. Thepnr says:

      @Dr Jim

      For folk who don’t agree there are other parties available to vote for
      You can have the British Nazionalists or the other British Stalinalists take yer pick there are branch offices of them in Scotland

      Wings posters paragraph of the day LOL

    200. Valerie says:

      That’s Nigel Dodds on his feet, giving himself a stroke, over May breaking all the commitments given to the DUP.

      Fair to say he’s not pleased about the backstop.

      I’ve watched this shitshow most of the day, I’m a masochist.

    201. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Elizabeth Stanley at 7.07

      Well said Elizabeth. I suspect the anti English votes voices are against us and trying by setting people against them to stop the decent English among us from voting YES.

    202. Rock says:

      Rock (22nd February – “The makings of a deal”):

      “Only the most stupid people on earth would give English settlers, including holiday home owners, a vote on Scotland’s independence from England.

      Rock (29th June – “The half-full electorate”)

      “Before there is a flood of pretendy pro-independence English settlers rushing to post, if you really want Scottish independence, there would be a better chance of achieving it if all English settlers were denied the vote.

      It is a proven fact that the vast majority of the English voted No.

      And it is not rocket science to forecast that the vast majority will always vote No.

      I find that completely natural, but I find it completely wrong and stupid for them to be given a vote.

      Brexit would not have won if EU nationals settled in the UK had been given the vote. In my view, it was right to deny them the vote.”

      Pretendy pro-independence English settler Elizabeth Stanley always turns up when her God given right to keep Scotland within the union with England is threatened, in my humble opinion.

    203. G says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      4 December, 2018 at 9:38 pm

      “How do you know independence support isn’t at 60%. Do you base this opinion on newspaper “polls”?”

      I don’t know. Yes, I’m just basing it on polls carried out by polling companies, mainly for newspapers, and listed on John Curtice’s website, for example. I’m open to the idea that these polls underestimate the support, but for support to be at 60% they would need to be wildly out, to the extent that they are being manipulated. Has anyone seen any evidence for this?

    204. Rock says:

      Elizabeth Stanley says:
      4 December, 2018 at 7:07 pm

      “I was born in England. I’ve lived in Scotland just shy of 30 years. So according to pretend blood & soil commentators here I should not be allowed to vote on Scottish independence.”

      Robert Peffers (18th February 2017 – “Here comes a surprise”)

      “The fact is that a little common sense will show that the immigrants mainly come to find work. Elderly English cadgers excepted, these who sell up expensive city homes for cheaper, or better, Scottish accommodation, free bus passes and the benefits of such as free prescriptions, care at home and cheaper Council Tax. These are often the ones most prone to call scots subsidy junkies.”

    205. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Scot Finlayson at 7:41 pm.

      You typed,
      “so a 5 year main residence qualification,although not perfect, should diplomatically assuage both sides of the argument.”

      I think that’s fair. We have to remember that a degree course at a Scottish university is 4 years and there are a fair numbers of “others”, y’ken “others”, who come to Scotland to take advantage of the universities like St Andrews, Edinburgh and Glasgow.
      In many cases, their national allegiance is not to Scotland, but to their homeland, wherever that may be.
      If they want to stay on and work here after they’ve got their degree, fair enough; they should have the vote in an indyref. So 5 years residency, to me, would be fair.

      What has to be trodden on is the holiday home owners, and children (resident outside Scotland) with resident Scottish parents, who use a postal vote to skew an independence result, for their own (britnat) motives.

      Surely there should be a way of cross-referencing, so that somebody applying to be on an electoral roll in Scotland, if found to be on an electoral roll elsewhere in the UK, can have the book thrown at them for attempted fraud?

    206. Valerie says:

      Best comment on Twitter

      What’s the betting for the Tories “losing” the legal advice documents on the way to Parliament?

    207. Lenny Hartley says:

      We should know soon where Indy support stands, there was full scale Panelbase Poll today.

    208. Rock says:

      For the record, I have no problem with English pensioners or other settlers moving to Scotland, and unlike Robert Peffers, I do not consider them to be “cadgers”.

      But in my humble opinion, it is extremely stupid to give English settlers the right to vote in a referendum on the independence of Scotland from England.

      After 311 years of being a colony of England.

      Did any other colony give English settlers the right to vote in their independence from England referendum?

    209. Proud Cybernat says:

      “If a second referendum on Brexit were to take place that would set a precedent for a plebicite for Scotland…”

      In one respect, yes. But Scotland is seeking a 2nd IndyRef on the basis that the UK we voted for in 2014 may no longer be available to us – i.e. a material change in what we voted for in 2014.

      I don’t see what ‘material change’ there is (yet) to support a 2nd EU-Ref. Not saying here I’m against a 2nd EU-Ref, I would support having one – just saying that I see no material change (thus far) that justifies having a 2nd EU-Ref in the same way that our situation here in Scotland justifies a 2nd IndyRef.

    210. IZZIE says:

      Best laugh of the day Stephen Gettings explaining ‘gubbed’ to an English journalist on Sky news

    211. Thepnr says:

      Polling and their worth?

      I’ve tried to push this many times on Wings but never get any takers, we’re good and able enough to conduct our own polls.

      No money changes hands, all we need are the same type of volunteer that delivered the Wee Blue Book and a decent set of questions along with someone with the skills to weight the results according to the demographics.

      I know we have the skills among Independence supporters to do that easily. A website where results can be entered by trusted “pollsters” who collect them i.e. us and the rest is automatic.

      Trusted “pollsters” might be hard but not impossible, I think it’s worth the effort. One attempt is all it would take to know if it was bullshit or not.

      One hundred or even 50 trusted people could give us a poll every single week or more realistically every month. Something I believe worthwhile as we have genuine people in every corner of Scotland. Our poll has the potential of being the most accurate poll in the UK.

      All we need is the will, I’d be up for gathering a few answers.

    212. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      4 December, 2018 at 9:44 pm

      “So if you believe that English born people should be banned from voting in Scotland you are indeed a racist.”

      Robert Peffers (18th February 2017 – “Here comes a surprise”)

      “The fact is that a little common sense will show that the immigrants mainly come to find work. Elderly English cadgers excepted, these who sell up expensive city homes for cheaper, or better, Scottish accommodation, free bus passes and the benefits of such as free prescriptions, care at home and cheaper Council Tax. These are often the ones most prone to call scots subsidy junkies.”

      For the record, Robert Peffers, are you against elderly English people legally moving to Scotland?

      But happy for the ones who do come to have the right to vote in an independence from England referendum, irrespective of their views on “scots subsidy junkies”?

    213. Lochside says:

      ’empty political manouvers like appealing to the eu or the un are not even worthy of a political stunt’…well that’s your opinion and you are welcome to it.

      ‘in the subsequent 2017 election, snp support fell from 49,5% to 38%’…..

      and was this the result one of not fighting the election head to head with the Tory’No Surrender to Indyref2’ meme with a loud Resolute ‘YES to Indy’ message? People stayed at home because of the lack of assertion of that message.

    214. Graf Midgehunter says:

      @ G

      ““How do you know independence support isn’t at 60%. Do you base this opinion on newspaper “polls”?”

      I don’t know. Yes, I’m just basing it on polls carried out by polling companies, mainly for newspapers, and listed on John Curtice’s website, for example. ”
      —————————-
      Try following Jame Kelly who will give you a much broader insight to the polls:

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/

      He’s NOT the famous pisspot Kelly who does a regular stand-up comedy act at FMQs. Errr, sorry sit down Kelly I meant.

    215. Cubby says:

      Rockshit

      The best thing to do with Rockshit is do not look at it, hold your nose and pass on by quick. Similar to what you would do with a smelly Britnat dog pooh sitting on the pavement. Instinctively you know nothing good will come of it if you linger.

    216. Nana says:

      For anyone who missed Ian Blackford’s speech from earlier

      It’s braw!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRmCPA3VPvA&feature=youtu.be

    217. Bill Hume says:

      Is it not about time we all told Rock to fuck off?…..no?
      Well I will do it…Rock, fuck off, we don’t need your anti English shite on here.

    218. Cubby says:

      thepnr@9.32pm

      I am not slow in telling Britnats that Scotland is not Quebec. So guess what I am going to say to you.

      Yes you guessed it -Scotland is not Quebec.

    219. G says:

      @Proud Cybernat

      I would say the material change, and ultimately the only one that matters, is that people have changed their minds. There was a recent Channel 4 poll of 20,000 people that had Remain at 54%. If that reflects the reality then it seems perverse to carry on with Brexit when the majority of people no longer want it. With a general election, you get the new government shortly after the vote. With the Brexit vote, we are two and a half years down the line. So how long does that result hold weight for?

      It should be a warning for the process of Scotland becoming independent. The result should never take two years to implement. We should be out as soon as possible and deal with the consequences rather than risk support unraveling in the way it has for Brexit.

      I think the “material change” thing was a way of the SNP conditionally committing to a referendum. There were grounds for thinking that a post-Brexit referendum was winnable. It’s also a defence against Westminster running riot, removing powers and money from Scotland, because the threat of a second referendum should have given them pause for thought. But it’s an artificial constraint, as the sovereign people of Scotland should be able to decide whenever they want. Anything else is an occupation.

    220. ronnie anderson says:

      Thepnr I knew they clipboards would come in handy lets petition the Rev to get the questions to be asked , if any group of people can do their own polling its Wingers , all we need is the questions /date/times or specific number of people to be polled .

    221. A very good year 1967 says:

      Posted earlier after 5 years reading posts every day.
      This afternoon the place was packed and our party rep was talked over and not a word from the Speaker.
      Tonight Ian Blackford gave an outstanding speech to an empty house.
      The Tories must have been in the bar having a drop of the hard stuff after today’s events.
      At least it gave our man a chance to be heard,are you listening Scottish Media show us what really happens in that place.

    222. Thepnr says:

      @Cubby

      If you have another example of two referendums being taken in the Western world then I’m all ears. Even if you don’t the fact remains the same. Get it wrong next time and you’re fucked.

    223. very good year 1967 says:

      Posted earlier after 5 years reading posts every day.
      This afternoon the place was packed and our party rep was talked over and not a word from the Speaker.
      Tonight Ian Blackford gave an outstanding speech to an empty house.
      The Tories must have been in the bar having a drop of the hard stuff after today’s events.
      At least it gave our man a chance to be heard,are you listening Scottish Media show us what really happens in that place.

    224. Cubby says:

      Lochside@9.04pm

      I am not slow in telling Britnats that Catalonia is not Scotland. Guess what I am going to say to you.

      Scotland is not Catalonia.

    225. Cubby says:

      thepnr @10.37pm

      Sounds to me that you are making an argument for not having a second referendum.

    226. yesindyref2 says:

      @Thepnr
      Get it wrong next time and we have another go a few years later. Don’t have one now (soon), and it’s bye bye SNP.

      Scotland is not Quebec, nor is it Catalonia.

    227. cynicalHighlander says:

      Terence callachan piss off

    228. Sarah says:

      @Thepnr at 9.32 p.m. citing the decline in support for Quebec indy after they lost a second referendum 50.58% to 49.42%.

      I think that your argument doesn’t make enough allowance for the fact that Canada is already a far more devolved set-up, and has a whole range of differently constitutioned [sic] areas/regions. Quebec has a very significant amount of self-government.

      In contrast, as you know, Scotland has a tiny amount of self-government and is quite clearly a country in its own right which is having that status denied.

      I cannot agree that we must wait for polls to be favourable. We all know that there must be a campaign and a date set before many people will have the time and energy to consider the matter properly.

      And it would be healthier perhaps to ban polls during the campaign period!

    229. Thepnr says:

      @Cubby

      Don’t put words in my mouth, I’m saying nothing of the sort. I won’t decide when the next referendum will be and neither will you.

    230. ronnie anderson says:

      Nana Ian Blackfords speech was well worded but he might have well talked to the lavvy wall Tereza speaks Corbyn speaks but the leader of the 3rd largest party has to wait to well into the evening to speak , no Tereza no Corbyn green benches started to empty as soon as Blackford got to his feet .

    231. Dr Jim says:

      Flying high:

      There are many eejits out there still complaining about the First Ministers helicopter and it’s about time they stopped this nonsense so I’ll put them straight now

      Nicola Sturgeon has no helicopter because she has the use of mine, yes the helicopter is mine, the livery is the SNPs but everything else belongs to me ……….and all the other taxpayers who fund it on the governments behalf

      Aw c’mon she’s got 32.000 square miles to cover and then there’s the entire ocean all round about us

      Eh and if ever a Yoon party gets elected they can have one too ….of course that’s never going to happen like ever is it Boo Hoo!

    232. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi “very good year 1967”.

      I like the cut of your username.

      See Emily play, Baby You’re A Rich Man, Hole In My Shoe, Please Release Me (I joke)…

      Saturday nights 10 pin bowling and feeding the juke box, Friday nights at the BB.

      Yes, a very good year.

    233. Thepnr says:

      Listen ALL!

      1. I am NOT stating that the polls must be favourable.

      2. I am NOT stating that Scotland is Catalonia or Quebec

      3. I am NOT stating that any of that above is what matters.

      ALL that I’m very obviously not managing to state clearly is that whenever the next referendum is then we cannot afford to lose it. Surely that simple fact is obvious to everyone.

      Bide our time, it will come and then we do the best we can to win. There is no third bite at the cherry in any imaginable future. It’s as simple as that.

    234. Cubby says:

      Brexit Debate

      Brilliant speech by Blackford. Corbyn wasn’t too bad either for a Britnat but he spoiled it when Angus MacNeil asked about the Scotgov mandate for a second independence referendum by replying that the question was irelevant.

      My favourite SNP MP at Westminster has to be MacNeil – absolutely no cringe in Angus. Come on the rest of the SNP MPs follow Angus’s lead and show some GRIT – get right into them. It’s about independence not following Westminsters stupid rules and conventions. Most of them came from the previous English parliament anyway.

    235. Arthur Thomson says:

      It intrigues me that some people on here are apparently spending time worrying about the Muppets at Westminster not approving another indyref.

      The political omnishambles that Westminster has created for itself does not end when some deal or other with the EU is agreed. The Brits will never be taken seriously again. This is Suez Times one thousand. The end of the Brit delusions of empire. The beginning of a metaphorical civil war in Brexitland. And all this taking place in the context of a Yookay in which virtually no aspect of government is working.

      In this wider context, Scotland being told to shut up and eat their breakfast by a crowd of proven idiots will be rejected by the majority of Scots. Nicola will then have the level of support she wants to fire up the DEMAND for a referendum.

      Even the Brits will by then have understood that sometimes it is better to know when to accept their new reality. Like they are going to do with the EU.

    236. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      I’ll just keep voting for Scottish independence.

      That’s it.

      No need for look at me posts that go back years with insults.

    237. Thepnr says:

      @Arthur Thomson

      That’s exactly how I see it. Brexit or not eventually the DEMAND for a referendum in Scotland will be insatiable.

    238. Golfnut says:

      For everyone.
      Indyref is party policy, not a constitutional requirement.

      It was voted through at Conference as the party’s prefered route to Independence( I so hate that word) or more accurately its prefered route to Ending the Union.

      They were focused on winning a majority at Holyrood and using its powers to hold a referendum,I would also hazard a guess it was because they never ever thought they would gain a majority of Westminster seats in the short to medium term.

      The Britnats have latched on to the referendum route because of the section 30 nonsense.

      Even now, the SNP in Westminster are only ever referencing the Act of Union, because this is still an internal matter. When it moves to the next stage, I would be very surprised if they don’t change to referencing the Treaty of Union.

    239. very good year 1967 says:

      Yes a good year.
      First SNP badge.
      Winnie.
      European Cup.
      Great music and funny enough I play tenpin bowling 3/4 times a week.

    240. Liam says:

      Breeks says:
      4 December, 2018 at 2:31 pm

      wull2 says:
      4 December, 2018 at 1:47 pm
      My opinion,
      Scotland should send a letter to the EU,that the people of Scotland wants to reverse the A50 letter, its then up to the EU to accept it or reject it.

      I very much like that idea.

      I very much like that idea too. It’s worth a try and what does it cost us? The price of a postage stamp?

    241. Ken500 says:

      The Polls have the SNP at 44% GE. Tories and Labour losing big time. Labour losing 2 The Tories more. Another landslide SNP victory. If the Tories lose at Westminster. Highly likely. It will change the scenario, There will be less Tory unionists speaking rubbish. Looking for cheap publicity. In the Press and elsewhere.

      It looks like it would be another Holyrood victory. A majority again? Even with D’Hondt. That is the time to have another IndyRef. When the voters (even more) support it. All the demographics support it growing over time. 2%+ a year.

      Once Labour realise they have more chance at Westminster power without clinging on to Scotland. Telling their supporters to vote Tory. It lost them the Westminster vote the last time. They brought about their own defeat. They do not want the poison chalice. Corbyn’s support among the young has declined. From 52% to 33% according to the Polls. They won’t support the Tories. The young support EU membership.

      There is a credible alternative in Scotland. The SNP. If people vote SNP/SNP and for Independence. They will get it. It will take time to negotiate away. Scotland is growing away in any case.

    242. Rock says:

      Elizabeth Stanley says:
      4 December, 2018 at 11:07 pm

      “I’ll just keep voting for Scottish independence.

      That’s it.”

      If you genuinely wanted Scottish independence, you wouldn’t mind all English settlers being denied the vote, because the vast majority voted No and will always vote No – it is not rocket science.

      In my humble opinion, pretendy pro-independence English settlers like yourself always turn up when their God given right to keep Scotland within the union with England is threatened.

      But that is my personal opinion, and I never suggest that any poster stops posting here, whatever their opinions.

    243. Rock says:

      And you have nothing to worry about – the next independence referendum has been scheduled for 2640 AD.

    244. Cubby says:

      thepnr@10.56pm

      “There is no third bite at the cherry in any imaginable future. It’s as simple as that”

      Sorry but it it is not. I disagree. Way way too negative and defeatist. So if we had lost in 1997 then that would have been it. No Scottish Parliament ever. I don’t think so. You underestimate the resilience and determination of independence supporters.

      Never ever give up is what I say.

      The direction of travel is towards independence. Why would any independence supporter just give this up? In cubbyland we always win in the end.

    245. Cubby says:

      Rockshit

      The best thing to do when encountering Rockshit is to hold your nose and quickly look away. For it is after all just a lot of Britnat crap.

    246. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi “very good year 1967”.

      Forgot about Winnie. MEA CULPA! A badge I designed, a year or three ago…

      https://sites.google.com/site/webgaffer/home/badge-designs/UN-Saltire-black-red-crop.jpg

      And Celtic, iye?

      I am not a groupie. Sergeant Pepper never laid a hand on me…

    247. Robert Peffers says:

      @Blair Paterson says: 4 December, 2018 at 3:24 pm:

      ” … only those who are born and live in Scotland should be able to decide the future of THEIR country what honest and fair minded person would object to that ???”

      Absolute bloody balderash!

      There are more members of my immediate family scattered throughout the former British Colonies than there are in Scotland.

      These were all born and raised in a very small rural area of the Lothians as was I. In fact many of the older ones, around my own age, were all born in the same bed and delivered by the same, (pre-SNHS), GP & District Nurse.

      Scots born but now not legally the people of Scotland. A near neighbour was based at Rosyth Naval base while in the RN. He married a Scots girl and has lived, worked and paid his tax in Scotland now for around 45 to 50m years. He is one of the people of Scotland and far more entitled to vote in Scottish elections than is my sister who has lived in Australia since 1962.

    248. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      So I should give up my vote because in your view similar people vote differently to me?

      What a strange thought.

      That is rocket science. Pure rocket!

    249. Rock says:

      Ken500 says:
      4 December, 2018 at 11:25 pm

      “The Polls have the SNP at 44% GE. Tories and Labour losing big time. Labour losing 2 The Tories more. Another landslide SNP victory. If the Tories lose at Westminster. Highly likely. It will change the scenario, There will be less Tory unionists speaking rubbish. Looking for cheap publicity. In the Press and elsewhere.

      It looks like it would be another Holyrood victory. A majority again? Even with D’Hondt. That is the time to have another IndyRef. When the voters (even more) support it. All the demographics support it growing over time. 2%+ a year.

      Once Labour realise they have more chance at Westminster power without clinging on to Scotland. Telling their supporters to vote Tory. It lost them the Westminster vote the last time. They brought about their own defeat. They do not want the poison chalice. Corbyn’s support among the young has declined. From 52% to 33% according to the Polls. They won’t support the Tories. The young support EU membership.

      There is a credible alternative in Scotland. The SNP. If people vote SNP/SNP and for Independence. They will get it. It will take time to negotiate away. Scotland is growing away in any case.”

      With independence supporters permanently wearing rose-tinted specs, no wonder Scotland remains a colony of England after 311 years and will remain so for another 622, until 2640 AD.

      Rock (27th August 2017 – “Underneath the Goodyear blimp”):

      “Scotland was on the verge of independence immediately after the Brexit vote.

      The unionist parties were without leaders and completely lost, the SNP had 56 out of 59 MPs and 50% of the vote, the EU’s eyes were (favourably) on Scotland.

      But Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      The result: Nicola outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other, fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%.

      It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit and the SNP will be caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.

      Or another “snap” Westminster election with the SNP again losing support.

      Despite the pretendy “sovereignty” and boasting of the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here, Scotland is again as far away from independence as ever.

      If they succeed in neutralising the Rev. Stuart Campbell and WOS, independence will be “stone dead” for at least 620 years.”

    250. cynicalHighlander says:

      you can piss off as well Rock as that racist bigot Terence aresole.

    251. robertknight says:

      Rock…

      Your beef should be with the parcel o rogues calling themselves proud Scottish AND British who persist in supporting the Union and Unionist parties – not, I would suggest, those who, irrespective of origin, move to Scotland and find themselves coming round to the idea of supporting Indy.

      Try persuading your fellow Scots-by-birth and avoid dissuading your fellow Scots-by-choice.

    252. Ken500 says:

      It doesn’t matter if the Westminster unionist imbeciles do not listen to the SNP. Not only do they show their ignorance and arrogance. It is recorded and shown on the internet to a much bigger audience. Bringing Westminster to even bigger disrepute. How low can they go. Rock bottom. If they haven’t reached that already. They are an International laughing stock. No one takes them seriously. Especially the EU members.

      The EU has seen through them for years. The ECHR forced them to set up Holyrood and to have an IndyRef. The right to self determination. It was recognised how undemocratic was Scotland’s place in the UK Outvoted 10 to 1. Holyrood denied essential powers. Now the unionists trying to use Brexit to take away more powers. People in Scotland will not put up with the disrespect.

    253. Thepnr says:

      @Cubby

      I guess you know best then since you disagree. For you then losing the next time might be not such as a big deal since we;ll always have that third bite at the cherry?

      I admire your confidence “so what if we lose next time we’ll just try, try, try and try again.”

      Well that’s where we differ, we will win next time the second time and we better be ready to win before we even start. Unlike you it seems I’m determined that we won’t need a third bite at the cherry.

      Two bites should should be enough for any people to get beck their self respect and declare their Independence once again.

      There can be no more “glorious failures” I’m not up for that, the next time is the last time for me and probably most of us that read Wings and post here and for me it’s ALL OR NOTHING. There will not be a third bite at the cherry.

    254. Cactus says:

      Evening wull2, regarding your original suggestion, likey likey…

      We could always invite the People of the EU and other international neighbours over to Scotland for dinner, drinks & entertainment and hand deliver accordingly 🙂

      Hey howdy hey previous voting Scottish leavers of the EU (of -38% and decreasing), let us see how the other half get on first when they’re oot eh… give it a shot with Scotland at the helm… BIG moves in small steps.

      The goal is independence first, any and everything else comes thereafter.

      BIG moves in small steps.

    255. Rock says:

      Elizabeth Stanley says:
      4 December, 2018 at 11:34 pm

      “So I should give up my vote because in your view similar people vote differently to me?”

      Any genuine independence supporter would be more than happy to give up their vote if it meant a better chance of winning an independence referendum.

      You know perfectly well that the vast majority of your compatriots don’t want Scotland to be independent from your mother country England, which is natural in my opinion.

      If all of them were denied the right to vote, like EU citizens settled in the UK were denied the vote on the UK’s independence from the EU, Yes in Scotland would have a much better chance of winning.

    256. Kangaroo says:

      Dear Mr Tusk,

      As You are now aware that the Kingdom of Scotland is a Sovereign nation in a Union with the Kingdom of England and that the nations voted differently in the 2016 UK EU Referendum we are taking this opportunity to advise you that the Kingdom of Scotland desires to be treated as the Continuing Member State of the EU when our partner, the Kingdom of England has completed its withdrawal. We can assure you that we have taken all necessary steps to ensure that we comply with the acquis of the EU.

      Further, should it come to pass that the Kingdom of England decides to also remain in the EU as a result of their constitutional process then we would expect that as the UK Government has recognised the people of Scotland’s Claim of Right to determine its own style of government, it follows that the EU should also recognise the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England as separate Sovereign member States.

      Looking forward to a positive response.

      Kind Regards

      The People of the
      Kingdom of Scotland

    257. Cubby says:

      thepnr@10.49pm

      Getting a bit touchy again thepnr.

      I have no desire to decide when a next Independence referendum will happen. You are the one who is stating that it carries a high risk of the independence movement imploding as per Quebec. My point is that I disagree – I believe the independence movement has a strong enough core that that will not happen.

      On the other hand If you believe that it is all over if a second referendum is lost then logically that leads to a very conservative approach.

      I am for independence, the exact means I will leave to the SNP but I have never seen the merits in closing down possible routes to independence. That is the job of Britnats.

    258. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      So if a genuine independence supporter gives up their vote there would not be any votes for independence.

      Strange way of trying to win an independence vote.

    259. Thepnr says:

      @Elizabeth Stanley

      By the way just ignore Rock if you don’t already everybody else does in the main that is and with good reason.

    260. Rock says:

      robertknight says:
      4 December, 2018 at 11:36 pm

      “Rock

      Your beef should be with the parcel o rogues calling themselves proud Scottish AND British who persist in supporting the Union and Unionist parties – not, I would suggest, those who, irrespective of origin, move to Scotland and find themselves coming round to the idea of supporting Indy.

      Try persuading your fellow Scots-by-birth and avoid dissuading your fellow Scots-by-choice.”

      The vast majority of the categories I have mentioned before – the British Nationalist elderly, the selfish middle classes, English settlers and the thugs – are unwinnable – be totally blunt with them, don’t waste your limited time and resources on them.

      I am not dissuading anyone – I am challenging someone whom I believe to be a pretendy pro-independence English settler who only pops up here to dupe the more gullible.

    261. Ken500 says:

      All the heresay prediction has come undone. The parrot Is not needed. Just copying people. Aye a form of flattery. Not an original thought. Just a broken record. Empty barrels and white noise.

      It looks like Nicola will not be asking May’s permission because May or the Tories will not be there much longer. Neither will Brexit.

      Look how far Scotland has come in 18 years. Since Devolution 2000. Who ever believed Scotland would have an IndyRef or be so close to Independence in their lifetime. It looked like an impossible dream, not on the agenda. Now it is a reality. That is why so many folk were relieved the SNP would be in power in Holyrood when the Tories got in 2010. To mitigate the Westminster policy.

      Scotland voted NO in 2014 and would have done again. Even after the SNP Westminster landslide. Waiting a couple of years is no problem for people who have waited a lifetime. To succeed. Nicoia squandered nothing and gained everything more support. To have another IndyRef and win. People have to vote for it. It is up to them.

    262. Rock says:

      Ken500 says:
      4 December, 2018 at 11:54 pm

      “All the heresay prediction has come undone.”

      True.

      Ken500 says:
      15 November, 2018 at 10:26 pm (“The question begged”):

      “Nicola is about to advocate the date for IndyRef2.”

      “May will not last the week.”

    263. yesindyref2 says:

      @thepnr “There is no third bite at the cherry in any imaginable future. It’s as simple as that.

      No it isn’t, I disagree, and so do others. It’s different views.

      Mine is that if the SNP don’t use the mandate they already have, a lot of people will feel betrayed and will not vote SNP, and therefore the SNP will not have a majority in 2021, or for some considerable time, so there will not be Indy Ref 2 let alone Indy Ref 2, for some considerable time.

      Whereas if they do use the mandate, and it fails this time, we’ll know the SNP are in good faith and good courage and will continue to support them.

      It’s as smiple as that 🙂

    264. Ken500 says:

      The wee feel. Parroting nonsense. Away yer go. Greeting face. Vacant coupon.

    265. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I see the boulder’s comments are becoming longer.

      There must have been a re-programing and upgrade.

    266. Rock says:

      Thepnr says:
      4 December, 2018 at 11:54 pm

      “By the way just ignore Rock if you don’t already everybody else does in the main that is and with good reason.”

      Your friend Cubby never ignores my posts, (s)he always kindly responds.

    267. Thepnr says:

      @Cubby

      Not touchy at all, there is a very high risk that Yes doesn’t win the next Independence referendum if it were to be held before Brexit is sorted out. Do you deny that?

      I’d like to ask though also what do you mean by

      “I have never seen the merits in closing down possible routes to independence.”

      Are you suggesting that I am closing down possible routes?

      What other routes? Maybe you just mean that by me asserting that we will win at the second attempt I am closing down a third attempt that may or may not ever happen? We haven’t even arrived at the second attempt yet.

      Can you be more explicit then about these routes that are being closed down by my posting on Wings and more specifically when would YOU choose to go for the next Independence referendum?

      I’ll make it easy, before or after Brexit is resolved?

    268. ronnie anderson says:

      Elizabeth Stanley Don’t read Rocks posts for your sake of sanity

    269. Cubby says:

      thepnr@11.41pm

      You definitely are getting agitated. I am expressing my opinion. My disagreeing with your opinion does not seem to sit well with you.

      “I guess you know best then since you disagree” – Nope just my opinion.

      ” Two bites should be enough for any people ………….” – One bite SHOULD be enough but if it takes 3 or 4 then so be it. Lots of independence supporters have been in it for a long time eg Mr Peffers – did they just give up.

      “There will not be a third bite of the cherry” – that’s great so you are guaranteeing we win the next referendum. Brill!!!!

    270. Ken500 says:

      The troll never gives up. Do not take bets on the predictions. The bookie turn out right. The odds on another IndyRef are about even. They were a year ago. The slip is still in the box.

    271. Rock says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      5 December, 2018 at 12:00 am

      “@thepnr “There is no third bite at the cherry in any imaginable future. It’s as simple as that.”

      No it isn’t, I disagree, and so do others. It’s different views.”

      I am with Thepnr on this one.

      Nicola is absolutely right to take the second bite in 2640 AD when victory will be guaranteed as not a drop of oil will be left.

    272. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      @Thepnr yes I know I should blank but sometimes it’s fun.

    273. Rock says:

      Ken500 says:
      5 December, 2018 at 12:06 am

      “The troll never gives up.”

      I would not call Thepnr a “troll”.

      In fact I don’t use the “t” word against anyone, if if I have a different opinion.

    274. Thepnr says:

      @Cubby

      I’m off to bed, not one of my questions did you answer which comes as no surprise.

      So it’s not that I expected you would as I knew you wouldn’t. Goodnight and I’ll leave you alone with yourself to play with as I’m done with you toying with me.

    275. yesindyref2 says:

      Worth pointing out that if Brexit is cancelled, it changes everything.

    276. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      Waves to Ronnie.

      Rock has a weird fascination.

      S/he has an amazing repetitive capability. The Treeza May of WOS.

      Perhaps it is she!

    277. Ken500 says:

      May suffer three defeats in the Commons. The first time any Gov has been found in contempt at Westminster. The Tories in total dismay and chaos.

      Mundell speaking nonsense about joint trade missions PM/FM.

      May is trying to get Nicola to bail her out. No chance. Nicola would never support the Westminster Tories. Unless it was in support of Independence.

      So much for Nicola asking May for permission. It’s the other way round.

      Farague quits UKIP. That went well.

      Yet some dafties keep in criticising Nicola, what planet are they on.

      The EU know exactly what is going on.

    278. Rock says:

      Ken500 says:
      4 December, 2018 at 11:54 pm

      “Scotland voted NO in 2014 and would have done again. Even after the SNP Westminster landslide. Waiting a couple of years is no problem for people who have waited a lifetime. To succeed. Nicoia squandered nothing and gained everything more support. To have another IndyRef and win. People have to vote for it. It is up to them.”

      Nicola blew it big time when she started flogging a dead horse after the Brexit result instead of preparing the people of Scotland for independence before Brexit was completed.

      If Brexit doesn’t happen, there will be no case for another referendum in the near future, and even if one were held it would almost certainly result in another defeat.

      If Brexit does happen it will be too late for a referendum because Scotland will be at the mercy of Westminster and the EU and UN won’t give a damn.

      Independence will not happen until 2640 AD.

      If you think it will happen earlier, have the guts to make a prediction as to when.

    279. Ken500 says:

      No one called Thepnr a troll. The parrot repeated itself. Speaking to itself again.

    280. Cubby says:

      thepnr@12.03am

      I think you are mixing me up with other posters. I have never said when the next ref( assuming there is one, should happen). That is the job of the Scotgov and happy to leave them with the decision. I tend to think that there is always a risk of any ref not going the way you would wish.

      I never said you thepnr were closing down other routes – it is a view I hold – and it seems sensible to me to keep all options open. Not everything I say should be taken as a criticism of you.

      “I’ll make it easy, before or after Brexit is resolved” sorry but that is far from making it easy because what exactly does “Brexit is resolved”actually mean. So that is why it is the Scotgov and not me to decide.

    281. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      Rock,I have guts.

      I’ll make a prediction. You seem very keen on predictions.

      Call for Scottish inderef in March 2019.
      Vote in June 2019.

      I also predict that you will quote this post 20 times in the future as you cannot resist.

    282. Rock says:

      Elizabeth Stanley says:
      4 December, 2018 at 11:52 pm

      “So if a genuine independence supporter gives up their vote there would not be any votes for independence.”

      As you know perfectly well, we are talking specifically about English settlers.

      If all English settlers were denied the right to vote in a referendum on Scotland’s independence from England, there would be a much better chance of Yes winning.

      As an English settler, if you are a genuine pro independence supporter, what do you value more?

      Giving Scotland a better chance of becoming independent?

      Or insisting on votes for English settlers, knowing that the vast majority will certainly vote No, reducing the chances of Scotland becoming independent?

    283. Cubby says:

      Thepnr@12.11am

      I was just giving proper consideration to your post. I think that’s being respectful. I don’t understand why you would think I would just ignore your questions.

      I was not toying with you just giving my opinion. If you do not want me to comment on your posts in future you just have to say and I will respect that request.

    284. Rock says:

      Elizabeth Stanley says:
      5 December, 2018 at 12:29 am

      “Rock,I have guts.

      I’ll make a prediction. You seem very keen on predictions.

      Call for Scottish inderef in March 2019.
      Vote in June 2019.”

      That is not a prediction – it is your view.

      Do you think Nicola will call a referendum for June 2019?

      I can predict with 100% confidence that she will not. She will never dare call one without a Section 30 approval from Westminster.

    285. Rock says:

      Cubby says:
      5 December, 2018 at 12:35 am

      “Thepnr@12.11am

      I was just giving proper consideration to your post. I think that’s being respectful. I don’t understand why you would think I would just ignore your questions.”

      I am always amused by you giving proper consideration to all my posts and being respectful.

    286. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      Oh rock what a choice. You sound like a violent trans person shouting TERF!

      It’s not a good look.

    287. Kenno says:

      No Deal Brexit looking a certainty.

    288. INDEPENDENT says:

      Slightly o/t
      Everybody over 16 has a national insurance number and now we have personal taxation provision albeit limited. We can register everybody resident in Scotland and thus entitled to vote. Nothing biggoted, racial or anti immigrant. Once your registered your vote can be guaranteed and easily confirmed ie no double voting / exile voting etc.

    289. Rock says:

      Ken500 says:
      5 December, 2018 at 12:21 am

      “No one called Thepnr a troll. The parrot repeated itself. Speaking to itself again.”

      I wouldn’t call Cubby a troll either.

      When do you think this Tory government will fall and when do you think the second independence referendum will happen?

    290. Rock says:

      Elizabeth Stanley says:
      5 December, 2018 at 12:41 am

      “Oh rock what a choice. You sound like a violent trans person shouting TERF!”

      If you can’t answer the simple question, I can be 100% sure that you do not support Scottish independence and only turn up here to pretend that you do to dupe the more gullible.

    291. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      Do you want a prediction or a view?

      The distinction seems to be important to you.

    292. Rock says:

      Elizabeth Stanley says:
      5 December, 2018 at 12:53 am

      “Do you want a prediction or a view?

      The distinction seems to be important to you.”

      In the Queen’s English, a “prediction” and a “view” have very different meanings.

      I am very clear about what I asked, and it wasn’t you whom I asked, but you are free to answer if you like, but remember a “view” is not the same as a “prediction”.

    293. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Elizabeth Stanley.

      Good to see you gittin’ involved an’ thah’.

      8=)

    294. Rock says:

      By the way Elizabeth, no hurry but don’t forget to make up your mind as what you value more:

      a better chance for Scottish independence by denying the vote to English settlers

      or a lesser chance by allowing the vast majority of English settlers to vote No again.

      Bye for now.

    295. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Rock tonight is either inebriated, on speed or in total desperate distress as our case continues to progress and they can’t do anything to stop it.
      What a hoot!

    296. Dr Jim says:

      There’s a great depth of hatred abroad in the world of the YoonBrit tonight they don’t like it that their party of imperialists have been shown to be dictators both morally and in the courts as they’ve always preferred to try to hide their real purpose and now it’s exposed for all to see

      Next to go will be the Labour party when they realise if they go for a second EU referendum they’re offering on a plate the same opportunity to Scotland by default so at the last minute they’ll turn away from that and go for a general election in the hope they win it outright

      But if they don’t win a GE they’ll be forced into the deal situation and they can’t use the DUP because they’re totally untrustworthy and England won’t stand for them again, they can’t use the Lib Dems because there won’t be enough of them, so who’s left, well oh dear it’s us the dreaded SNP and we’ll help of course we will…BUT just like the DUP it’ll cost, except it won’t be money, it’ll cost non interference in Scotlands own referendum and if they do interfere, where we put them up we’ll bring them down and England this time won’t mind because a very high percetage of England is quite happy for Scotland to leave the UK anyway as previous polling by the Rev has shown

      Scotland’s Khaleesi Nicola Sturgeon plays Game of Thrones
      and kicks all their arses…. check mate suckahs!
      In all my life I’ve never seen any political leader be as honest and able to predict what will happen every step of the way and tell us about it

      And still the media keep her off the telly pretending everything that’s happening is somebody else’s idea

    297. yesindyref2 says:

      Rock said “In the Queen’s English” instead of “Perth English”.

      Oh dear.

    298. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      Waves to Brian.

      Rock is a hoot!

      I’ve been here from the off but decided to pile in again.

      Politics in the UK is totally bonkers at the moment so no better time to post here.

    299. Iain mhor says:

      Yeah, you don’t seek approval, you do it then see who ratifies it. You don’t go down the “Inviting Longshanks to make a judgement” by asking other parties such as the EU or its courts to adjudicate or WM to hand you a ticket saying they’ll abide by the decision – you do it, claim it and see who ratifies it afterwards. You certainly don’t appeal to third parties and ask them to find a way to bail you out – you bail yourself out; because if you don’t you will have no respect from anyone and will pay a heavy, heavy price to your “fixer”
      Scotland takes its Independence or not as the case may be.
      Nobody will dish it out or “allow it” – That is not how Independence works.

    300. Liz g says:

      INDEPENDENT @ 12.48
      Yer no even slightly OT..
      Yer on the money..
      No Taxation Without Representation is an established plebiscite that’s as old as the Union itself (almost).
      The big win from the Smith debacle,was the Scottish tax code..
      We have nay interest in the eugenics shit … Have Tax Code,,Can Vote…tis an “elegant” solution don’t ye think ??

    301. Just noticed this on the Rev’s twitter feed re-tweeting a post from Cameron Archibald (- a young up an coming stalwart activist of the Indy movement):

      Bumped into a uni colleague earlier. He’s a libertarian and we are massive opposites of each other. However we were discussing the recent fiasco of the Tory government and he said: “I get it now.”

      “What do you get?” I asked.

      “Independence. Let’s just get the fuck out of here.”

    302. Liz g says:

      Further to my @ 2.09am comment
      A June 2019 Indy Ref… That enables everyone registered for the Tax year April 2019 till April 2020 to vote..might be possible…or mibbi 2020/2021…. Holyrood could then introduce a wee bit of transparency for Tax returns and therefore make it a serious “thing” to change yer tax code to a Scottish one…?? As it should be..
      Then no one would be playing at it for their vote!!

    303. Ghillie says:

      We live in interesting times.

      Someone said (wish I could give you the credit you deserve) that we should pay real attention as we are going to have to explain this to our grandbairns.

      I just hope archives of all of Rev Stu’s articles and all Wingers’ comments survive (Yes, including our pet trolls) – this would be the best blow by blow account and running commentary to pass on =)

      Keep it up folks =)

      We ARE on our road to Independence. A bit rocky at times and some surprising scenery along the way, but wow,what a journey! With the best of companions 🙂

    304. winifred mccartney says:

      Scottish tax number = vote. Brilliant.

      No representation without taxation!

    305. Moonlight says:

      My Canadian born, UK passport wife is too poor to need a tax number. How does that work?

    306. Undeadshuan says:

      Just a thought on the ECJ article 50 decision; if Brexit cancelled because of Scotlands legal appeal on article 50.

      Then Conservatives will likely see Scotland as a thorn in their side and want rid of Scotland, as we are a threat and will have been instrumental in getting Brexit cancelled.

      Not corbyns labour, corbyn did nothing to set up a challenge, instead it was down to Scotlands seperate legal system and SNP and green msp/meps & SNP mp Joanne Cherry.

    307. Undeadshuan says:

      Listening to BBC news and labour still saying general election or renegotiate a deal.

      Not cancel brexit.

      For majority of remain in eu, voters in Scotland, this again shows only Scottish Independence can save our place in the EU.

    308. Nana says:

      Links

      https://www.gov.scot/news/fisheries-bill/

      Full clip of Joanna Cherry during yesterday’s debate
      “I very much hope that when Scotland becomes an independent nation state again and looks to take her rightful place at Europe’s top table, it will be remembered that is was the Scots that threw this parliament a lifeline.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fug3h2MPGGw&feature=youtu.be

      http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.com/2018/12/revoking-notice-to-withdraw-from-eu.html

      Jolyon Maugham writes in the Guardian re Article 50 withdrawal
      http://archive.is/MoKz0

    309. Nana says:

      INDYCAR Brexit Betting roundup.
      https://www.facebook.com/indycargordonross/videos/203537630550238/?t=0

      http://www.businessforscotland.com/scotch-whisky-secures-gi-protection-in-indonesia/

      https://pensionersforindependence.scot/2018/12/04/latest-scottish-export-import-figures/

      Excellent news that Cromarty Port Authority has finally abandoned its #Ship2Ship plans in our precious local waters. This is a victory for #Nairn campaigners and their @cromartyrising colleagues, who have been unrelenting in their campaigning efforts.
      https://twitter.com/drewhendrySNP/status/1069685614109474818

    310. Nana says:

      David Mundell’s response to the Attorney General saying businesses in Northern Ireland would be advantaged by May’s deal? ‘Stop making it about Scottish nationalism.’
      Mundell the slimiest Uriah ever
      https://twitter.com/RobDunsmore/status/1069993368434958336

      Spurred on by Scotland, a small group of countries has now formed the Wellbeing Economy Alliance.
      https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/new-metrics-of-wellbeing-not-just-gdp-by-joseph-e-stiglitz-2018-12

      https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/theresa-mays-final-brexit-battle-is-with-reality-itself

      http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/12/04/guerilla-war-the-parliamentary-fight-to-stop-no-deal

    311. Shinty says:

      @ Robert J. Sutherland.

      5 years residency was the most popular choice during the last consultation (albeit not specifically referendums)

    312. Luigi says:

      Nana says:

      5 December, 2018 at 7:41 am

      David Mundell’s response to the Attorney General saying businesses in Northern Ireland would be advantaged by May’s deal? ‘Stop making it about Scottish nationalism.’
      Mundell the slimiest Uriah ever
      https://twitter.com/RobDunsmore/status/1069993368434958336

      David Mundell – loyal to the end. The boss is going down. The party is going down. His cosy little world is disappearing around him. And yet still he hangs on by the fingertips. “It’s all the SNP’s fault!”.

      And this is the guy that threatened to resign?

      Aye right. 🙂

    313. schrodingers cat says:

      Lochside says:
      ‘in the subsequent 2017 election, snp support fell from 49,5% to 38%’…..

      and was this the result one of not fighting the election head to head with the Tory’No Surrender to Indyref2’ meme with a loud Resolute ‘YES to Indy’ message? People stayed at home because of the lack of assertion of that message.

      ———————-

      except that in 2015 and 2017, we ran the same campaign, go figure?

      there are many reasons we lost support in 2017, voter fatigue for one, we failed to GOTV etc but when i canvased my area, i found that many people on the doorstep, even snp members, were distracted by the ongoing brexit debate, they wanted to know what it meant for them.

      this is only my personal experience and not a nationwide poll etc but it is why i support nicola’s position of waiting till we know what brexit actually means before launching indyref2

    314. Golfnut says:

      @ Iain Mhor.
      It’s not about asking the UN or EU or ECJ to find a way for binning this union, its about preparing the ground for International recognition when we tell Westminster to take a hike.

    315. Nana says:

      Will Brexit go ahead? Jason Hunter doesn’t think so

      Jason Hunter, Former International Trade Negotiator, on UK government in contempt of parliament
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajk6jHdmPnw&feature=youtu.be

    316. Nana says:

      There are big #Brexit debates at Holyrood & Westminster today. Scotland’s third sector want to protect #humanrights, EU funding and #freedomofmovement – here’s our briefing for MSPs & MPs
      see here for article
      https://twitter.com/scvotweet/status/1070224858057973760

      http://www.parliament.scot/

    317. Ken500 says:

      Many pensioners have a tax code but do not pay tax but have done most of their lives.

      A three year qualification. If that is possible? Or everyone (res) over 16 years gets a vote,

      The walls are tumbling down.

      It was Ruth Davidson ‘no surrender’ Party line that influence the vote. Even when Independence was not on the Ballot sheet. Now people realise what it means they are not so keen in it. Out of the EU etc. Powers taken. People being sanctioned and starved. Chucking people out. People being made poorer. The Tory/unionist nightmare. Liars always get found out. Fighting for their privileges. They are beginning to see their time is up. The tax evaders paradise could be coming to an end. If there is any justice.

    318. wull2 says:

      Further to my post yesterday

      The letter to the EU judges, the letter is after the advice given and before the final verdict.

      My opinion this morning on what they might say in the final judgment.

      Any letter from this date, must come from that Country not from a group of countries, also any letter reversion the A50 letter will accept all the rules of the EU, including adopting EURO.

    319. orri says:

      I’d say the 50% post indyref1 was because the SNP specifically said it was less about independence and more about ensuring promises were kept. Some of that would be due to the looming threat of an EU referendum after a close run referendum partly decided on a “promise” to stay in the EU.

      That’s the problem with being in a union. Unless your a left/right wing radical who doesn’t give a shit you’re on that ship until you get of so tempting as it might be to hole it and man the lifeboats you’re best chance at a safe departure might be to help maintain it till you can.

    320. Nana says:

      https://randompublicjournal.com/2018/12/04/reading-a-trolls-playbook/

      http://www.independentscot.org/a-scottish-independence-campaign-that-is-focused-on-live-experiences-is-crucial/

      A statement! Will he publish the legal advice?

      BREAKING The Attorney General will TODAY make a written statement today on the publication of Brexit legal advice
      https://twitter.com/labourwhips/status/1070207881977446401

      The first in a series on how journalism and think tanks are affected by the oligarchisation sponsored by Russia and its western collaborators.
      https://www.byline.com/column/81/article/2364

    321. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Yes. Yes it was a bit on the chaotic side yesterday. Also? With so much going on it was a bit hard to stay focused on the small but important stuff. The spread of opinion you’ve got laid out today kinda backs that up Nana. Everything happening everywhere and all at once.

      People are polarised and scared. Their tempers are on a hair trigger and that’s entirely understandable. It’s entirely human. Must admit to wrastling the frustration monster myself. I’ve developed a near permanent red mark on my forehead from repeated bouts of ‘table meet face’ over the past few weeks. 😀

      Everyone has the bestest idea ever for achieving near instant independence, avoiding brexitmageddon and building the shiniest most radical and cool society ever. Have a few ideas along those lines myself. 😎

      I’m not a first minister though. Don’t like politics, don’t much like the political class as a rule (I’m too shouty and high strung. Also? I’d never get tired of slapping some folk… just because 😀 ) and I absolutely wouldn’t want the responsibility of carrying the lives and life expectations of a nation on my back. I simply can’t imagine what that must be like. It’d take nerve I don’t have fer sure.

    322. Scott says:

      This is worth a read shows what the Tories are like.

      https://on.rt.com/9jsb

    323. Nana says:

      Morning Macart

      You been reading my thoughts?

      “don’t much like the political class as a rule (I’m too shouty and high strung. Also? I’d never get tired of slapping some folk… just because”

    324. Macart says:

      @Nana

      😀 LOL Like I said ‘entirely understandable and entirely human’. No mind reading required Nana. You’d need a heart of stone not to be scared, angry or frustrated about now. My stress ball looks like a piece of chewing gum at this point.

    325. Lenny Hartley says:

      Wull2 you have not been paying mutch attention on these pages have you, it has been explained countless times that the EU cannot force a member to adopt the Euro. I cant be arsed going into the details as it has been explained in detail literally hundreds of times, but i will give you a clue, to be in the Euro you must be beforehand in the ERM for two years, membership of the ERM is voluntary.

    326. What happens if UK Gov revokes the Article 50 letter,

      apart from stopping the process,

      a GE ?

      a EUref 2 ?

      does it just delay leaving ?

      how will it effect the EU elections next year ?

    327. Nana says:

      @Macart

      Stress ball!

      I’m looking to build a padded cell 🙂 !

    328. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ G
      I would say the material change, and ultimately the only one that matters, is that people have changed their minds.”

      This is what the SNP 2016 Party Manifesto says:

      “We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.”

      The SNP has BOTH conditions covered and the conditions are independent of each other i.e. if one OR the other conditions arise then the SNP will hold another referendum. This is to say that the 2nd condition (“…Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will…”) is not contingent on there being a majority in support of having a referendum on that basis at the time the referendum is called. It’s simply – if we’re dragged out of EU against our will, we’re calling a referendum (regardless of what the polls say); we’re giving the people of Scotland a voice in that fundamental change in their constitutional position.

      So what I think the SNP are saying just now is, yes, let’s work right now to get support for indy as high as we possibly can. That’s just a good practice and common sense thing to do. But irrespective of where that level of support goes in the interim, if we’re ultimately dragged out the EU (i.e. that our being taken out becomes a fait accompli), the ScotGov will be giving the people of Scotland a say on that situation in a referendum.

      At least that’s how I understand things from their 2016 manifesto pledge.

    329. Phronesis says:

      If the Brexit Bus had ‘Poorer per Capita’ as a slogan – who would have voted for it?

      As Margaret Mead said ;

      ‘What people say, what people do and what people say they do are three different things’

      ‘The future of the UK welfare state in the context of Brexit depends more on wider structural issues related to British political economy, rather than the intergenerational dimensions within it…

      Intergenerational transfers have been relatively marginalised in the UK until recently. Austerity has increased pressure on the intergenerational contract. Younger generations tend to remain in education for longer, enter the labour market later and have less access to credit. Older generations’ assets are used more readily by parents to support their children. In many cases, the older generations leverage more debt against their assets, such as releasing equity from their homes. Some transfers have also moved the other way, particularly in cases where children must finance their parents’ social care…

      The labour market has in the past been able to rely on migrant labour as a pressure valve, but this is likely to tighten post-Brexit. This will be detrimental also to the intergenerational contract, leading to a disproportionate increase in the dependency ratio and a decreasing quality of health and social care. Fewer migrants will also mean a diminished tax base for health and social care, as migrant workers tend to contribute more than they receive from the system. Furthermore, it can intensify demographic pressures by contributing to staff shortages in health and social care. The effects of this are already visible in the NHS.

      https://www.socialeurope.eu/no-brexit-generation-game-for-the-welfare-state

      ‘This matters because the EU is the UK’s largest trading partner, accounting for nearly half of the UK’s trade in goods and services. For example, 56 percent of cars produced in the UK are exported to the EU and about ¼ of UK-produced financial services are related to EU clients…An “FTA” scenario, which assumes that the UK and EU reach agreement on a broad free trade pact…translates into a cost of about £900 to £1300 per capita.
      A “WTO” scenario, in which the UK loses any preferential access to the EU market and adopts WTO tariff schedules for trade in goods…In this scenario, the decline in real output relative to no Brexit would be larger, between 5 and 8 percent in the long run (about £1700 to £2700 per capita…
      • Among manufacturing sectors, chemicals and transport equipment would be particularly affected due to potentially big increases in trade barriers and their significant integration in the European production supply chain, which could be disrupted post-Brexit.
      • The negative effects would be even more pronounced for some service sectors. For example, financial services output could fall by as much as 15 percent in the FTA scenario’

      https://blogs.imf.org/2018/12/04/the-uneven-path-ahead-the-effect-of-brexit-on-different-sectors-in-the-uk-economy/

    330. Shinty says:

      Macart says ” (I’m too shouty and high strung. Also? I’d never get tired of slapping some folk… just because ? )”

      Love it.

    331. Breeks says:

      @Wull 09:05am

      I say we write the letter and take our chances.

      As a sovereign State, come what may, we’d have our hand on the tiller.

    332. Tom Busza says:

      Tax code to vote?

      Interesting concept but still disenfranchises a large number of voters. I’m thinking young people over 16 in full-time education; they don’t get their tax code until they start paying tax.
      I no longer have a tax code as I am now on a state pension, so don’t pay tax.
      Just stay with “permanently resident” in Scotland – no time frames or anything.

    333. Nana says:

      Tommy Sheppard mp says
      It was after midnight before I got the chance to speak in the #brexitdebate last night. If you missed it you can watch the full speech here –

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFe6smJSK90&feature=youtu.be

      Sky News has actually sent a media truck to Edinburgh “new town” to do voxpops. “Does London treat Scotland second class” is the topic. Location location location.
      https://twitter.com/tradasro/status/1070234809786658817

      That’s all for now.
      I can hear you all sighing in relief 🙂

    334. Terence callachan says:

      What a selfish mess of a country England really is, their government , Theresa May voted down yesterday so that two years of strife has led to a dead end Brexit .
      It now looks like there will be no Brexit at all ,certainly not Theresa,s deals or a crash out deal whatever they were meant to be .
      It now looks like remain.
      All those people in Scotland who have continually went on about calling the Scottish independence referendum and they have literally went on about it every day for weeks should take a look at themselves in the mirror because what has happened at Westminster has been planned all along, not by the mainstream of politicians but by those that are in control and you can bet your life on it that there is a leader in there although clearly it’s not Theresa May.
      Just think where we would be now if Nicola Sturgeon had set a date for the Scottish independence referendum and bear in mind it would not have been a date before Christmas , we would now be drifting towards the referendum giving the bettertogether British nationalists the most helpful situation they could ever dream of which is no Brexit and labour and lib Dems seen as saviours of the day,the BBC and newspapers would be having a field day with that touting Labour as strong and stable .
      Nicola Sturgeon I believe ,like me and others have thought all along that there was more to come on Brexit ,we knew that we had to wait until all the facts were known before making a move for independence and even yet all the facts are not known, I implore people to think about Scotland and what it is worth to England, not just oil and gas and water but the industry, Theresa May mentioned she has the support of farmers the fish industry and diageo the whisky business who are all worth a lot of money to Westminster ,think about a border between Scotland and England not in terms of how much Scotland gains from independence and controlling its own business and taxes and political affairs but what England loses, it loses a huge amount because at the moment it present this whole island to the world as if it is England ,that will change and have dramatic effect on how the world sees and interacts with England.
      Nicola Sturgeon has played poker with the best at Westminster the hidden leaders and had called their bluff, they hoped and expected that she would call a Scottish independence referendum then they would have blasted it out of the water with a last minute abandonment of Brexit.
      Just watch as now you get the BBC encouraging people in Scotland back to labour now that Brexit is dead.
      When the dust settles Scotland has to present to the people a strong and stable plan for independence on the basis that never again will people be ousted from Scotland and sent packing by England because of their hatred of foreigners policy.
      Scotland needs to get out and remove ourselves from the control of the rudderless Westminster ship that is being controlled remotely by people who remain faceless, the faceless killers of England’s Westminster government.

    335. Cubby says:

      Rockshit

      The best thing to do when encountering Rockshit is to hold your nose and turn away. It is after all a lot of Britnat crap.

    336. geeo says:

      Things not discussed on MSM No.248: If the treeza ‘deal’ is rejected, there is NO transition period.

      “What does this mean for exports/imports on March 30th”?

      “Shhhhh…..” (quick..change the subject)

    337. Bill Hume says:

      Terence callachan at 10:41
      Every word is true but I fear you have not forseen one scenario.
      A ‘No Brexit’ will now be portayed as 6 Scottish politicians overriding the ‘will of the people’ of England.

      This, however, could become quite interesting…….England, driven by the right wingers, declaring UDI??

      Stranger things have happened in British politics in the last year.

    338. Sinky says:

      London Media still ignores SNP as third largest party at Westminster also failed to highlight which politicians actually brought the Article 50 case to Court.

      However no excuse for The Herald to report that Lib Dem Christine Jardine was part of the successful grouping as she dropped out early on perhaps due to party pressure.

    339. galamcennalath says:

      Re who should vote?

      Personally I think everyone 16-199 resident in Scotland.

      There are hefty penalties for breaking electoral law and they should be used to the full. More money should be made available for random and intelligence driven checks.

      If perpetrators are actually identified and punished severely, the dodgy practices will reduce enormously,

      I would specifically target for investigation …

      All people:

      – with non Scottish tax codes
      – registered at previous/current second homes

      Random people:

      – in care homes
      – with proxy votes

    340. Big Del says:

      Who is this Tom Burns train driver and OSLA member being interviewed on Sky news at 11.36?.
      Pure unionist and no one else there to argue against him. We ,according to him, voted in 2014 to stay as ONE country and not be separate…..Doesn’t like the DEAL because it splits Norn Irlnd from the rest of the UK. Bit of a pattern in his rant there.

    341. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Everybody should read Kevin McKenna’s very insightful piece in today’s National to understand exactly what we are up against.

      We have an awful lot of very enthusiatic and very naive support which can easily be lead astray by enemies already amongst us.

    342. John Thomson says:

      If a general election is called and snp hold the deciding votes then our support to either tories (hold nose) or labour should be conditional on only one item being devolved which would be control over all media broadcasting all tv, papers. If this were to be given then indy would happen without control of broadcasting? I just dont know

    343. Tammytroot says:

      Just been watching Sky all out politics with vox pops from Edinburgh.
      Apparently we all have English accents and are ardent brexiteers!
      ASLEF guy just said Scotland ceased to exist in 2014!
      FFS.

    344. call me dave says:

      “Lets hear from the three main parties before PM Q’s ” says Big Auntie Radio 5 darn Sarf.

      Oh wait…no SNP as the Lib-Dems are in there FGS!

      Didn’t hear much more switched on CD player in car…

      ‘You can’t always get what you want’ croons Mick Jagger… 🙁

    345. call me dave says:

      Jings! The Rev onto a ‘fibre’ diet now.

      His interwebby bits seem to have been sorted. Fast & furious now.

    346. Jeff says:

      ASLEF, like the GMB and Unison are NewLab Unionist through and through – dictating to their membership how to vote (i.e.’No’). As far as I know the only union that gave it’s Scottish members a vote on the issue in 2014 was my one, the RMT while Bob Crow was in charge, and we voted ‘YES’. Pity it wasn’t up to us or we would have been independent by now….. The current General Secretary Mick Cash is NuLab unfortunately but hopefully will respect the Scots membership as did his predecesor.

    347. Bill Hume says:

      call me dave……But if you try real hard, you just might find,
      You get what you need.

    348. galamcennalath says:

      Nana says

      https://randompublicjournal.com/2018/12/04/reading-a-trolls-playbook/

      A good overview of the troll ‘playbook’. Ignore the original theme, deflect, dubious assertions, and play the person.

      I think an important point to consider is whether the troll is just an ideologically motivated individual or a more sinister paid agent. I have no doubt we see both on WoS.

      Somehow, though I may be wrong, I expect the former to be amateurish and the latter to be more subtle and devious.

      A particular problem I have, and can see others have, is with people who are genuinely pro Indy but also genuinely negative towards the SNP tactics. They are NOT trolls. However, the same behaviour would seem an ideal modus operandi for a skilled paid troll!

    349. galamcennalath says:

      call me dave says:

      Jings! The Rev onto a ‘fibre’ diet now.

      Aye. Nae doot aboot it! Fibre works wonders for throughput.

    350. There we go again everyone should be able to vote on Scotland’s future well that is a sure way of stopping us having our freedom as was proved the last time,with the Incomers vote and the postal votes going against the true Scots vote for freedom you people who advocate this must want us to fail again as i have said before I think you must be trolls nothing else could explain your thinking

    351. Breeks says:


      Bill Hume says:
      5 December, 2018 at 10:55 am

      Terence callachan at 10:41
      Every word is true but I fear you have not forseen one scenario.
      A ‘No Brexit’ will now be portayed as 6 Scottish politicians overriding the ‘will of the people’ of England.

      Bring it on says I Bill.

      My biggest fear now is that we downplay the Constitutional ramifications of this ECJ ruling, which yes, I know isn’t a Court Ruling just yet, but I think we really need to start registering some hits with Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty. This is where we hold them.

      Sánchez-Bordona has done the heavy lifting… Revoking Article 50 is the designated prerogative of the Sovereign Nation State, and Scotland’s Claim of Right, recently affirmed by Westminster itself, recognises the people of Scotland are Sovereign.

      We have before us a European Court of Justice which distills confusion and uncertainty to leave the definitive question of Sovereignty, and here in Scotland, we have our own Sovereign will to remain in Europe. Surely we need only connect one with the other.

      Yes, Westminster might well dispute or Sovereignty, stamp its feet, protest we allied ourselves to the will of the United Kingdom in 2014, but let them say what they like and dance like a puppet on a string. Nothing they say can make THEM sovereign over us.

      Test the issue Scotland. Present arms. Bring about the occassion where Westminster must reconcile it’s own claim over Scottish Sovereignty, -prove it, and as they flounder doing what they cannot, we can call our first witness for the defence:- The Westminster Parliament itself, and it’s formal recognition of Scotland’s Claim of Right…

      There is one more ultimatum to be played. That England realises that exiting Europe will indeed terminate their EU Membership as the misguided fools desire, but the departure is unilateral and simultaneously terminates the Union of Kingdoms. What say you England? Double or quits?

      In the next few weeks, I hope we will see what happens when the unstoppable force departs from the immoveable object. The Tories haven’t even got that right.

    352. Terence callachan says:

      To…galamcennalath…
      There are many people living overseas who have an address in Scotland that they either own or rent or are simply not the householder e.g. parents house or some other relation.
      These people have for decades now been able to claim disability and other benefits in uk whilst pretending they still live in uk all they do is get their benefits paid into a bank in uk and periodically transfer it to another account in uk from which they make withdrawals, the banks on.y bring to the attention of government those accounts where the benefit is paid in and withdrawals are made overseas, so having two accounts bypasses the check.
      It’s easy to get someone to send mail sent to your uk address on to your actual address overseas or open it and send details by email etc.
      Part of the scam includes voting by post.
      Forgery of signatures is easy no local authority no social security department can check signatures for validity the only reason they get a signature is so that if you ever do get caught cheating in some other way they will say you signed this form but if you say you didn’t sign it you would then have to provide evidence to show how someone else had enough of your details to fill in the form and forge your signature.
      Government departments use the ignorance of the public not knowing a signature is not proven evidence.
      Once you are aware of this little known fact your eyes are open to how easily postal voting can be cheated

    353. call me dave says:

      @Bill Hume

      Very true…I’d forgotten about the silver lining. 🙂

    354. INDEPENDENT says:

      Thanks to those who liked and also flagged up potential problems ref my tax code idea.
      Surely Tax / Nat Ins No are easily cross ref these days. When they can link your passport photo to your new driving licence and transfer the same I am sure it is well doable.
      Also Nat Ins Numbers are for life and contain a code with your Date of Birth held in code in it.
      Just thoughts to try and give a balanced, fair election level playing field for our next Indy referendum.

    355. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Definitely a ‘who knew(?)’ moment.

      https://archive.is/cynpT

    356. galamcennalath says:

      Terence callachan says:

      parents house

      I have had one Tory woman admit her son who lives and works in London permanently is registered at her address because his “vote is worth more here”.

      Like all aspects of criminality in society, I believe the solution is money for sufficient investigation leading to sufficient prosecution to act as a deterrent. ‘We will catch you, expose you, shame you, and punish you’.

      People are cheating electorally because they are getting away with it.

    357. People in care homes.
      Most people in care homes can no longer handle their own affairs because of a faulty memory.
      Residential homes are different more people in residential homes can still handle their own affairs but have physical difficulties that require them to be in a residential home.
      Nearly everyone in Scotland that resides in a care home gets help from the government to pay the cost which is hundreds of pounds a week hardly anyone has that kind of weekly income in Scotland ,there are some who have to use their savings or other capital to pay for their care costs until what they have falls below the threshold of twenty thousand pounds or thereabouts.
      All those people who are in the first group I mentioned basically have to arrange for all of their regular income such as social security benefits state pension work pensions etc to be paid to the care home except for a few quid a week that they get to keep for personal expenses/pocket money for fags or favourite shampoo etc and whatever the shortfall is in the cost of their care after all their income other than the tenner pocket money has been handed over, the government pays direct to the home.
      So once that is organised by relatives social security and care homes ,any other business is pretty much left to the family ,sometimes power of attorney is organised wherebye a solicitor handles it all but that costs hundreds of pounds so it is not the norm.
      A relative can get what is called “appointee” status from government and that diverts all money and mail from social security to that relative ,but that relative then has to do as above and pay all pensions etc to the care home on the patients behalf ,relatives often mistakenly think that “appointee” status lets then decide everything including voting on the persons behalf but it does not, it only covers social security benefits.
      Many people don’t even bother with power of attorney or appointee and as long as the care home gets paid what is due nobody else bothers so again some relatives take it upon themselves to vote for the person in the care home forging signatures filling in forms etc.
      Another issue already known about in this area is the abuse of money by relatives and friends that the person in the care home may have and as I said they can keep up to twenty thousand quid or thereabouts, if the relative or friend know the bank PIN number as they often do having helped out a bit before admission to the care home it is often the case that savings accounts are cleaned out ,money stolen, the thieves just say the person in the care home told them to buy “whatever” .
      Usually these crimes only come to light when another ,second friend or relative gets suspicious and does something about it, reporting to the police or social services but unless there is proof not much happens.
      Voting by people in care homes should not be allowed unless they can show proof that they are of sound mind .
      All people in care homes should be checked for this without exception including those very rich folks who do in fact have an income of hundreds of pounds a week to pay for their care and don’t need help from government or those rich folks who have lots of savings above the twenty thousand pounds threshold and have to use those savings to pay for their care ,again ,as long as the care home get their money relatives or friends are left to handle the persons affairs including voting and if the person had lost their memory the relative or friend can easily fill in postal vote forms etc for them, forging signatures as I have already said is not a problem because nobody checks the validity of a signature.

    358. Nana says:

      Read this tweet in relation to the legal advice

      https://twitter.com/carlgardner/status/1070292245394407425

    359. Donald Bruce says:

      The Scottish government should write to the EU giving their intent to remain in the EU. If independence in future the door to the EU should remain open. The SNP in Westminster can not win if they reject May’s proposal and hard Brexit with the resulting disaster. The Westminster government will blame Scotland for voting SNP. The only good outcome is to cancel Brexit

    360. Nana says:

      SNP Foreign Affairs spokesperson, @StephenGethins, is first MP on the news to analyse UK govt’s own #Brexit legal advice.
      video here
      https://twitter.com/olafdoesstuff/status/1070288050171854848

    361. galamcennalath says:

      So, the legal advice warns the Irish Backstop might ‘trap’ the UK for many years.

      Doh!? Isn’t that what it’s supposed to do?

      If there is no better trade agreement dealing with the Irish border then the backstop stays. Forever, if necessary.

      There was (is) an alternative backstop – the one originally agreed by everyone a year ago. It said that only NI would stay closely coupled to the EU.

      This was of course rejected by May because it would split her precious union! The truth always was …. either NI or the whole UK stays close to the EU. No other withdrawal agreement was/is possible.

      I can never make my mind up … has no one in the UK msm actually followed and understood Brexit? Or, is it all just a faux surprise?

    362. robertknight says:

      If anyone wants to know how to lose an Indyref2, do a little reading on the second Québec referendum in 1995 and the controversies surrounding it.

      Let what has happened in respect of the Québec Indy movement since 1995 be a lesson to those screaming for a referendum tomorrow.

    363. Breeks says:

      I think the legal advice which the Government withheld is a bit of a squirrel.

      The government was held in contermpt because it could be. It’s mud slinging. The actual legal advice witheld is predictable and not really very enlightening.

      The Government is embarrassed in theory, but these are brass necked Tories and good luck embarrassing one of them.

    364. K1 says:

      The thing that strikes me about the legal advice is that we all knew this before the so called AG even wrote the fucking advice?

      There seems little more enlightenment over what happens now than there was before all the hoopla of yesterday, none the wiser, May seems to be marching on regardless. They aren’t going to ‘stop brexit’ regardless of the court ruling that states that A50 can be revoked. So what next?

      Yes our parly have and will continue to reject the ‘deal’, so are we now just waiting for the ‘meaningful vote’ next week and when they get it through (by hook or by fudge), then what? Nicola calls indy2?

      So tired of all of it tbh…

    365. Merkin Scot says:

      “The Westminster government will blame Scotland for voting SNP”.
      .
      Not ‘will’ but ‘does’. Every single day.

    366. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Wull2 says:

      “Any letter from this date, must come from that Country not from a group of countries, also any letter reversion the A50 letter will accept all the rules of the EU, including adopting EURO.”
      ———————-
      Joining the Euro still means via the ERM route and is still voluntary.

      Unless the EU means business…!

    367. Terence callachan says:

      Interesting to see some points of view from people who are not Scottish saying that they have voted for Scottish independence .
      My position on this is that only a person born in Scotland or with a parent who was born in Scotland should be able to vote in the Scottish independence referendum I say this because those are the qualifying conditions for getting a passport .
      I have also said that Scotland could extend this and allow people who do not meet those conditions if they have lived in Scotland for a defined period of time such as five years, I would agree with that if it were proposed.
      I do not accept that a person who was not born in Scotland who’s parents are not Scottish who has lived in Scotland for one day or one week or a month or a year should get to vote in a Scottish independence referendum.
      This needs to be sorted.
      Mt Borsza says here in an earlier post that he is not Scottish his parents were not Scottish but he had lived here five years and voted yes in the last independence referendum ,I like it that he did but I know an Italian that lived here a year to study then left and will never return, they voted no and said they did so because they thought their investments and money in the bank would be safer.
      Is living here a year deserving of a vote on Scotlands future ?
      Is mr borsza living here five yrs out of sixty deserving of a vote on Scottish independence ?
      Elizabeth Stanley says she is English as are her children who were born in England she says they all voted yes but because I have questioned whether English people should get a vote she says we have now lost four votes ,well what I say to Elizabeth Stanley is that this shows that you were not voting for the right reasons if your vote is that flimsy .
      Voting for Scottish independence should not be done because mr borsza an Italian thinks Scotland deserves it nor should it be done because mrs Stanley thinks it is good for her family now that she lives in Scotland this vote is about my country it’s about the future of my country about future generations of Scotland who will indeed include many many people from other countries but this independence vote is not about asking everyone who happens to be in Scotland at the time or is just passing through ,what do you think about Scotland being an independent country oh well just sign here.
      I have lived in many countries in my life and cared about them when I was there and still care about them now I’m not there, I’ve seen libya devastated by uk and USA and it makes me really sad to see what they’ve done to that beautiful country but I did not ever ever have the right to a vote on that countries future not when I lived there and not now and the same applies to all the countries I lived in over the years , I’m Scottish it’s Scotland that I care for most the same as people across the world they care for most about the country they are from no matter where they may be living at the time .
      Mr borsza and mrs Stanley are not voting for Scottish independence for the deep feelings that draw me to vote for Scottish independence I love it that they like living here but their feelings for Scotland are not the same as mine.
      I loved my years in Dorset and east anglia and could easily have stayed there all my life, beautiful ,but I’m not English I’m not a scottish/Englishman never was you are one or the other you can’t be both and mrs stanley knows that and that is why she was able to switch back to type and say her vote for Scottish independence as well as those of her daughters and husband have been withdrawn that shows you how much she cares for Scotland.
      On yer bike mrs Stanley.

    368. Frank Gillougley says:

      …and for a wonderful piece of comedy from the border county of Leitrim on the current situation.

      Beautifully written. From a fantastic human perspective. Enjoy. I promise you’ll be laughing.

      https://www.facebook.com/seamusVorourke/videos/2075400682517005/

    369. geeo says:

      If you love Scotland so much, why did you hardly ever live here ?

      When you were living abroad, you contributed nothing to Scotland.

      Maybe it is YOU who is not worth a vote ?

      You are a bigot, i would take 100 Elizabeth Stanleys over one of your ignorant type.

    370. call me dave says:

      Jings!No news where we are this lunch time.

      Maybe no bad news in Scotland to report.
      FGS! Auntie with a kilt cannae get on the air…really?

    371. Sinky says:

      Snp setting the agenda at Westminster over last 30 hours so guess what Bbc Reporting Scotland lunchtime news can’t be screened due to technical difficulties

    372. Terence callachan says:

      To Robert peffers….
      Your comments about discrimination….

      Honestly ? Really ? What you say is nonsense, when it comes to nationality ,passports ,citizenship, there are laws in existence in every country in the world and they do say who can get a passport who can live in a particular country and who cannot, its law, it’s not discrimination unless of course you believe like john Lennons famous song imagine that there should be no borders across the world, which personally I do believe but also know it’s impractical and will never happen so come on drop the discrimination accusations , it’s perfectly normal for laws to state who can live in a country and who cannot and who can get a passport and who is a national of a particular country those laws also determine who can vote in a country, it’s not discrimination it’s law.
      I’d like to see you argue your accusation of discrimination in a court.
      You should go have a look at the rules /laws for getting a British passport and check out the British citizenship rules whilst you are at it ,all of it made by Englands Westminster.

    373. Terence callachan says:

      To geeo….B.F.P.O….

    374. geeo says:

      Yeah…callaghan, you might want to explain that gibberish ?

      B.F.P.O. = ??

    375. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      Bit of an insulting personal rant there Terence.

      You have the makings of a politician. Factually incorrect on several points & full of arrogance.

      For your information & to resolve all doubt myself & family all voted for Scottish independence & will continue to do so in future when the next opportunity arises.

      I will not be responding to any of your future posts.

      Thanks geeo!

    376. Terence callachan says:

      To Blair Patterson……nothing wrong with trolls….alternative points of view should be sought it’s the only way you get to know how and what the other side think.
      By the way I’m actually quite happy for people who were not born in Scotland and who’s parents were not born in Scotland to have a vote on Scottish independence if they can show that they have lived in Scotland for the last five years or more, that fits in with current UK legislation where people not born in England who do not have English parents can apply for British citizenship once they have lived in England for five years and once they have British citizenship they can apply for a British passport.
      The law actually says UK rather than England
      But I have written England here instead of U.K. to highlight that England applies this law to people already in fact it is England Westminster that made the law so having it applied to English people living in Scotland should not really cause the furore it is causing here in this discussion.

    377. Terence callachan says:

      To Elizabeth Stanley…..correct facts appear to have changed your mind
      Glad to see you will vote the right way
      You jumped to incorrect conclusions
      As you have now no doubt seen
      I am in favour of English people voting in a Scottish independence referendum if they were born outside Scotland and do not have a Scottish parent but only if they have lived in Scotland for five years or more ,by the way that five year rule is a rule that currently exists in British law enacted by Englands Westminster for those wanting citizenship then a passport.
      What I don’t want is the hundreds of thousands of English people who were not born in Scotland who do not have a Scottish parent and who have lived in Scotland for a day or a week or a month or a year because they come here to work, having a vote on Scottish independence .
      Living in a country in itself does not entitle you to a vote or entitle you citizenship or a passport or social security benefits and that is the case anywhere in the world.
      Unfortunately some people do actually think that English people should have a vote on Scottish independence no matter where they live even if they don’t live in Scotland .
      Takes all sorts.

    378. Terence callachan says:

      To geeo…
      Get the spelling right
      Callachan…..with two “C”s …no “G”

    379. galamcennalath says:

      “From the Irish viewpoint, the conclusions of the legal advice to the UK government on the Border aspect of the Brexit withdrawal deal are merely a statement of the obvious.

      But in Westminster they are nonetheless greeted as incendiary. “

      Says it all. I think it’s a statement of the obvious!

      So why the hoo-ha?

      Ok, the pantomime season is upon us. MPs farting around and acting the goat on stage.

      https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/reality-of-brexit-border-backstop-deal-greeted-as-incendiary-at-westminster-1.3721055

    380. Macart says:

      @Shinty 10.28

      Just sayin’ like, but some of us aren’t cut out to be politicians… EVER. 😀 LOL

    381. Merkin Scot says:

      “….also any letter reversion the A50 letter will accept all the rules of the EU, including adopting EURO.”
      Nonsense.

    382. geeo says:

      Are you not going to explain what B.F.P.O. means, callaghan ?

      Cat got your tongue suddenly ?

    383. geeo says:

      What the Tories think of free speech/right to protest.

      Bernard Jenkins, Tory MP.

      https://m.facebook.com/groups/237578533089567?view=permalink&id=1119176938263051

    384. Tom Busza says:

      @Terence callachan at 1.24 p.m.

      Couple of corrections. The name is Busza (Polish surname) not borsza ( a beetroot soup and spelt incorrectly!). Please reread my post. I have lived in Scotland 15 of my 70 years. I would request that should you ever refer to anyone it would be courteous to use their correct name, especially when it is clearly displayed. I have had 70 years of mispronunciations and mis-spellings despite saying the name and spelling it clearly.
      Many years ago, whilst working on a contract for VOSA, covering everywhere north of a line from Oban to Stonehaven, including all the islands, I came across just 1 Scot who objected to an “Englishman” working at his premises near Thurso. Maybe my English accent gave me away. Hving explained to him that as I was the only applicant for the VOSA contract living in the Highlands I was the one installing his computer. That was the one and only objection to Englishness that I have encountered in 15 years living, working and voting in Scotland. Until your post.
      The Italian student you reference was more than likely spooked by all anti-indy hype at the time. He/she also completed the Electoral Roll registration form. Nowhere on that form does it ask if you are going to live here for 5/10/50 years or eternity.
      As with Elizabeth Stanley, my responses to you on this matter are now closed. I will continue to support and vote for Scottish Independence

    385. Luigi says:

      K1 says:

      5 December, 2018 at 1:15 pm

      The thing that strikes me about the legal advice is that we all knew this before the so called AG even wrote the fucking advice?

      Aye, but as we know well, the elites of Perfidious Albion prefer to operate under unwritten rules – ye know, the ones that can be fudged? Having this in writing makes it a whole lot harder to weasel around and bend the rules to suit themselves.

      By pushing this through the courts, and making it formal, the UK is effectively cornered. They cannot use the tried and tested bluff and bluster technique to assume sovereignty and lord it over us, as they usually do. It’s been a painful awakening for some folk this week. 🙂

    386. geeo says:

      @Tom Busza.

      Well said, and ultimate irony when the bigot you just schooled, objected to me spelling his name wrong…!

      Take a bow my good man.

    387. North chiel says:

      Re “ K1@ 0115 pm . As I understand our FM has a mandate to call for Indyref2 if Scotland is taken out of the EU against the wishes of the people of Scotland. Consequently, if TM doesn’t get “ her deal “ accepted ( looks likely) , but subsequently ( by hook or fudge as you say) a second attempt with a change to a Norway type ( SM/CU) deal is successful?, we would be still leaving the EU , therefore the mandate would continue to apply on exit , as I see it . A factor here would still be the “ powergrab” , and our FM surely wouldn’t accept a Norway type deal without reversal of the powergrab ? I am beginning to think that the powergrab is quite crucial with this type of scenario.

    388. Macart says:

      @Luig and K1

      Ayup! As I said this morn, frustrating. The sheer fuckwittery involved in what’s dragged this omnishambles out for a government to get basically nowhere at best and drop us all in a mincer at worst, is beyond mindboggling.

      I may have to partake of some shiraz and slaughter countless waves of baddies on the old console just to make myself feel better. 😎

    389. frogesque says:

      @Blair Patterson 11.56

      The answer to your files is simple, convince all born and bred Scots to vote for Indy. That way all us YES voting English (in my case living in Scotland for over 50years) and ‘foreign’ supporters won’t matter.

      Neither will NO voting carpetbaggers.

      Get out and tackle the soft NOs, the OOs and the other knuckle draggers. Go forth, multiply and bloody good luck to you.

    390. frogesque says:

      Files should be dilemma. Don’t ask me I didn’t invent speel chucker!

    391. Sinky says:

      Christine Jardine losing the plot on Politics Scotland. .Obviously can’t stand the fact that SNP has grabbed the headlines over Brexit

    392. gus1940 says:

      BFPO – British Forces Post Office as anybody who remembers 2 Way Family Favourites will recall.

    393. Terence callachan says:

      B.F.P.O.

      British Forces Posted Overseas …

    394. geeo says:

      Okayyyyy….so why would that have the slightest relevence to me, bigot boy ?

    395. Colin Alexander says:

      The SNP are fighting to maintain the status quo of devolution UK Scot Govt and EU membership. The SNP’s own version of Better Together.

      It seems they could achieve that. May’s plan looks increasingly unacceptable to all but Theresa May and careerist I’ll-agree-with-whatever-the-boss-says Tories like David Mundell.

      If the SNP achieve their goal of status quo they achieve their other goal of activating their manifesto get-out conditions so removing the indyref2 mandate.

      Win-Win for the Devolution-First SNP and FM.

      But, it would feel like winning a fiver and losing a tenner, if like me, you voted Remain in a UK context but also want Scotland to dissolve the Union.

      However, if it ends up No-Deal Brexit the FM will have led Scotland into a (No deal) EU-exit that Scotland rejected AND into an Indyref2 the SNP didn’t want and didn’t expect.

      The Yes movement might be happy, until they realise they now have an indyref that’s woefully led by an SNP who are no more prepared than they were four years ago.

      If it’s No deal Brexit, the FM and SNP’s strategic incompetence will have been dwarfed by UK Govt and UK political incompetence of a massive scale.

      To put it bluntly: the SNP’s handling of this will have been rubbish but the UK’s (England’s) handling of it has been even worse.

      It’s time for independence. Even Scotland’s incompetents can do a better job at running Scotland than England’s incompetent politicians (helped by the DUP).

    396. geeo says:

      If Scotland was so great, why would you join the armed forces, knowing you would have to leave ?

      Not a very committed Scot, are you ?

    397. geeo says:

      No vote for terence, not enough years spent in Scotland…

      Thats what he is promoting, let him hang by his own petard.

    398. Daisy Walker says:

      Some thoughts on the legal advice being published in recent days.

      Geof Cox’s information is interesting, and thankfully brief;) and it contains a very concise summary of Terrible May’s WA.

      Para’s 7 and 8 explain that NI will remain in the SM and CU, and there will – in effect – be a Wet Border between mainland GB and NI for trading purposes.

      Para 9 – makes it clear mainland GB is out of the CU and SM and will trade as a third country, with all the border checks that involves when it comes to GB exporting stuff (not so good for businesses).

      Para 10 – explains that, although out of SM and CU, mainland GB will still ‘be obliged to observe a whole range of regulatory obligations in certain areas – environmental, labour, social and competition laws – which reflect varying levels of corresponding EU Laws (which makes leaving a bit superfluous).

      And here is the really, really Important bit – GB will not be subject to the jurisdiction of CJEU or the Commission in relation to these obligations which will be monitored and enforced by Independent UK authorities.

      And that means the EU’s new tax haven legislation will not apply to mainland Britain, but it will apply to those in NI with assets to hide. No wonder the DUP are pissed.

      From the point of view that Brexit never made any sense on any level, except from the motive of those with mountains of dosh, stashed away in Tax Havens, and selfish enough and powerful enough to be willing (and able) to trash the entire UK’s economy for their own selfish ends, from that point of view…. Terrible May has just achieved one of the most spectacular ‘draft’ withdrawal agreements. She has persuaded the EU to give up ECJ jurisdiction on SM and CU trading stds, and allow a substandard set of guidelines be implemented for regulatory obligations. No one ever expected the EU to give up on that one – a dangerous precedent.

      And at what cost, well, UK businesses will struggle, obviously, to sell their stuff abroad, the delay at customs being a first hurdle. They will still have to – more or less – comply with EU regs, but have no input in drafting them. Any infringement and they will have to trust the ‘independent UK body’ to rule on them fairly.

      And they’ve hived off NI, without a second thought for all their previously stated principles. If I were living and working in NI just now, I would be extremely relieved for the economy there, but if only it was that simple.

      If I were a business person, in England, facing economic chatastrophe, I think right about now the terms of the Treaty of Union would be very interesting to me, particularly the part whereby no part of the UK can be treated differently from any other for the purposes of trading.

      Now wouldn’t that be an interesting cat amongst the pigeons.

      So what happens now. I’d guess that the cheque book will be getting brought out again, for the DUP, and for the Tory MP’s who failed to support TM.

      The ruling that Brexit can be cancelled by HoC is an absolute game changer. Increasingly unlikely they will take that chance.

      So GE or PV – it will depend entirely on which one they think will split the vote the most, and therefore kick the can down the road. Remember – the Cancel Brexit option, HAS to be implemented before 29/3/19, and it has to be done in writing, by the Government in power. So if they take the huff and refuse to write it and send it, we’re screwed.

      Labour’s job will be to prevaricate and ensure the voters have no real clear opportunity to cancel brexit. The left cheek of the establishments arse – it knows how to play its part in the game.

      Anyways, peace and love, and remember, Brexshit – its all about the Tax Haven legislation, everything else is small fry, and smoke and mirrors.

    399. yesindyref2 says:

      I gave a letter to the postman, he put it his sack
      Bright in early next morning, he brought my letter back

      She wrote upon it
      Return to sender, address unknown
      No such number, no such zone

    400. Thepnr says:

      @Terence callachan

      “Voting by people in care homes should not be allowed unless they can show proof that they are of sound mind.
      All people in care homes should be checked for this without exception…”

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/in-different-times/#comment-2414059

      With each post things are becoming clearer, it never has been solely “English born” people that you object to in having a vote in a second referendum. It is all foreigners not born in Scotland or with Scottish parents. Admittedly you have chosen a new tact today and introduced 5 year residency requirement.

      I can only guess then that you don’t care whether or not a majority of EU citizens resident in Scotland are now more likely to vote for Independence.

      I see also from an earlier post today quoted above that you’ve expanded your ban list now to include old people in care homes who cannot “show proof that they are of sound mind”.

      Would it be appropriate to test if these people are of “sound mind” by something like an IQ test or would a doctors certificate suffice? Who’ll carry out the testing? Who will be the ultimate arbiteer or whether or not someone is of “sound mind”?

      Would you advocate a minimum level of intelligence before being allowed to vote and that the general population should be tested to see if they are of “sound mind”? You want to apply that thinking to people in care homes so why not wider society?

      If you intend to be consistent then surely your idea of being of “sound mind” applies to the whole population. No?

      Personally, I find your views abhorrent in a civilised society. There were other Nationalists in the 1930’s that widely shared your views and even today many still do.

      Fortunately they are no longer viewed as being mainstream, there’s another name for them and it’s on the tip of my tongue. It’ll come to me eventually I’m sure.

    401. Terence callachan says:

      Tom Busza….sorry for misspelling your name, I did check I was doing it correctly but it’s an old iPad I use and sometimes the keyboard is faulty ,sorry about that…
      I have no objection to your Englishness
      I have no disagreement with your voting rights
      I do believe as I have said here often that only people born in Scotland or with a parent born in Scotland should be allowed to vote in a Scottish independence referendum , I say that because those are the rules for getting a passport.
      I could agree with people who were not born in Scotland and people who do not have an English parent having a vote on Scottish independence if they live in Scotland and have done so for at least five years, the five year rule is a rule applied by England when people come to live in England from overseas and want UK citizenship which they have to get before they can get a passport.
      There are rules about who can vote in a general election and who can vote in council elections or elections to EU or the Scottish parliament ,all have their rules about who can vote.
      I object to English people voting in a Scottish independence referendum who have only lived in Scotland a day or a week or a year a longer time limit is required.
      You said in an earlier post that you voted for Scottish independence in 2014 because you thought it fair and I commented that it’s about a lot more than whether or not you think it is fair, this is my country,s future the future of our young people for generations to come, I do not believe you can truly have a longing for that future if you have only been in Scotland a short time that was my point,not that I’m saying your 15 yrs is a short time, it’s not,I don’t know you I don’t know what you consider to be “your country” maybe it is Scotland but for those who have been here a day or a week or a year I do not accept that they would be voting on Scottish independence for the right reasons.
      It’s a touchy subject with views that disagree
      I don’t think my views are unreasonable
      I know that the 800,000 English people living in Scotland have not all been here for five years or more and many many of them have been here a matter of weeks months or a year or two and many are here temporarily ,by all means they should vote in council elections when they are here and general elections and elections to the Scottish parliament and to the EU parliament but not ,definitely not on the future of my country.

    402. yesindyref2 says:

      800,000 English people living in Scotland

      Cobblers, but at least it’s not as bad as the bigot who claims it’s 1 million.

      It’s about 400,000 in reality, many of whom voted YES.

    403. yesindyref2 says:

      And not all that 400,000 of voting age either!

    404. yesindyref2 says:

      So HiFud has stopped littering the threads, and we get someone else instead, littering the threads.

      Don’t panic Gollum! The Precious Union don’t like it up ’em!

    405. Terence callachan says:

      To …the pnr
      Hello….with regards people in care homes voting ..I think it’s not about exclusion it’s about ensuring that there is no illegality,it’s certainly not about IQ level .
      As I said in my post people in care generally go to a residential home if they are still able to do things for themselves and can still make their own decisions.
      People go to a care home usually because of severe physical disability or because they have a loss of mental capacity such as altzheimers etc
      Those who go to a care home who have a loss of mental capacity and can no longer make decisions for themselves would be unable to vote unless someone was doing it on their behalf and I was just saying that there may well be a lot,of that happening which should be checked.

      To geo…I didn’t join the army….my parents did…I went with them overseas but I have lived in my home town this last 55 years Dundee

    406. Abulhaq says:

      You cannot be ‘British’ and a Scottish Nationalist. You cannot support Scottish independence, renewal and restoration and have any sentimental soft spot for the old order of Britishness. This an either/or which many Scots calling themselves nationalist are afraid to face. The dread Scots antisyzygy, the ability to hold diametrically opposing views at the same time, needs sorting. It leads to confusion, indecision and ultimately to political stasis.
      Historically England prospered while Scotland was high on the memory and mind altering drug of Unionism. Too many are still addicts. The ‘cold turkey’ of realising what a nation of gullable, useful idiots Scotland was for three centuries will not be pleasant but without it independence will remain a pipe dream.
      Independence Nicola but do not spare the propaganda horses.

    407. robertknight says:

      This thread has taken on the feel of comment ping-pong, being played by a half-dozen 77th BDE NCOs, creating more heat than light in the hope of generating quotable quotes.

    408. wull2 says:

      We don’t know what the EU judges will say, its up to them to say what they EU wants to reverse an A50 letter. This has never been done before.

    409. Tom says:

      Here’s a thought (apologies if someone has already thought of it).

      1) The people of Scotland are sovereign.
      2) Any country can with withdraw A50 unilaterally

      If we got over 50% of the voting people of Scotland to say that we wish to withdraw A50, then would it be legally binding?

    410. Proud Cybernat says:

      O/T

      The SNP
      ?
      Verified account

      @theSNP

      BREAKING: The @ScotParl has voted against backing May’s Tory Brexit deal.

      The SNP, and every party but the Tories, won’t back a deal that doesn’t protect Scotland’s interests and puts us at a competitive disadvantage. We will always stand up for Scotland.

    411. Ghillie says:

      Interesting thought Tom!

      Might Joanna Cherry be able to answer that?

      Or Mr Peffers mibee =)

    412. Dr Jim says:

      The government of the day decides the voting franchise, that government at this moment is the SNP, the system of democracy within the SNP is that ideas are put forward and the members of the SNP vote yay or nay to whatever propositions are up for debate, and that’s how it’s done

      Debating such things as the voting franchise on WOS is meaningless because nothing like that will ever be resolved on an internet chat forum and it quite often puzzles me that the folk who do the most insistent chatting about changing the status quo are generally not even in the SNP so will never be in a position to present these arguments to the party anyway so why do it here

      Is the purpose to annoy English folk by continually banging on about excluding them so they might vote NO in anger?
      Couldn’t possibly be could it, I mean no one would do a thing like that would they, and if not why even discuss something that will not change unless the members of the SNP decide to change it or another political party may win power at Holyrood and it may change, but as it stands the SNP membership (that’s me) and government is firm on the existing franchise remaining as is and doesn’t look likely to change anytime soon or ever

      If anyone wants it changed vote for any one of the three undemocratic Unionist parties at Holyrood, you still won’t get a say but you will get lots and lots of what you didn’t vote for whether you like it or not because that’s their kind of democracy (dictatorship)

    413. Ghillie says:

      Good news Proud Cybernat 🙂

    414. Luigi says:

      Tom says:

      5 December, 2018 at 4:50 pm

      Here’s a thought (apologies if someone has already thought of it).

      1) The people of Scotland are sovereign.
      2) Any country can with withdraw A50 unilaterally

      If we got over 50% of the voting people of Scotland to say that we wish to withdraw A50, then would it be legally binding?.

      Regarding point 1, if 62% of Scotland voted to remain in the EU, can we legally be dragged out against our will in the first place?

      I’m so fed up of this “we voted as the UK” nonsense.

    415. Ghillie says:

      Daisy Walker @ 4.09 pm

      Very helpful synopsis of the ‘legal advice’ May was probably inadvertently hiding.

      May and her cronnies greatest interests do, I believe, lie in the escaping the new EU Tax Haven Laws.

      I like your cat amongst the pigeons pondering too 🙂

      Peace and love to you too, and to all. We really need all the peace and love we can get right now!

    416. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dr Jim
      It is indeed pointless discussing the voting franchise in Scotland – AS IT’S ALREADY BEEN DONE OFFICIALLY in 2017, with the results published quite recently. For isntance:

      8.4 A total of 751 respondents answered the tick-box part of Question 17. Table 8.1 shows that there was general support among organisations (92%) and individuals (78%) for extending the franchise to everyone legally resident in Scotland.” (my bold)

      https://www.gov.scot/publications/electoral-reform-consultation-analysis/pages/10/

      It’s an exercise over months for the consulation, and more months for the analysis, and would still take some time for any changes, so any discussion on Wings, even if it led to another consulation immediately, would take perhaps 2 years to actually affect the franchise.

      So the only purpose is hot air or disruption, when it comes to an Indy Ref 2 hopefully just weeks in the future.

    417. Not Convinced says:

      I see the usual suspects are agitating for “Deny the English the vote!” (probably whilst simultaneously trying to claim they’re not blood & soil nationalists). However they’ve clearly not thought this through…

      If the English born can’t be trusted to vote “correctly” in any future independence referendum, then clearly they should also be barred from voting in Holyrood elections prior to independence as presumably they can’t be trusted to vote for the SNP and hence by allowing them to vote now means that it’s harder for the SNP to gain a majority and thus harder to call an independence referendum.

      Equally I suppose they must similarly be barred from voting in any post-independence elections as well? After all, can they be trusted not to vote for a reunification party? Better safe than sorry I suppose? 😀

    418. Terence callachan says:

      To …not convinced…

      I think your suggestion that English people be barred from voting in council elections and general elections and Scottish parliament elections is poor I don’t agree with it

    419. K1 says:

      There is not a soul on here watching this thread who is ‘convinced’ by any of your rationalisations regarding the franchise. All who live in Scotland get the vote in Indy2, thankfully your ilk aren’t in any position to alter this and the vast majority agree in Scotland that this is the way the franchise will remain.

      So please just go away, your screeds of pish are smelling up the whole forum these days…repeating the same thing over and over again to somehow justify your narrow minded bigoted outlook doesn’t alter the premise you are trying to gain traction with on here, namely, that those specifically born in England should not get the vote in Indy2.

      I don’t care how you rationalise it and justify this to yourself, we will never counter those living and making family and contributing to Scotland wherever they come from being disenfranchised…winning Ind2 on those grounds would rightly show those of us supporting independence for our country as ‘blood and soil’ ‘nationalists’, we would be viewed as a pariah nation who rigged their vote to get the result they wanted.

      And I for one would never vote in such a referendum, ever. And I can speak for everyone I know who voted Yes the last time on that score.

      So please, just give it a rest, sick and tired of reading this utter pish on here, you’re not the first and won’t be the last who shields their true outlook with what appears to be ‘reasoned’ debate. You are wrong on this, you will always be wrong on this and this will never gain traction in our polity.

      We will never allow anyone from England to be barred from voting in Indy2 or any other elections barring the usual criteria already in place, you and your ilk are a stain on our movement, now away ye go and gies aw peace.

    420. yesindyref2 says:

      Well said K1.

    421. gus1940 says:

      While I have nothing against English people resident in Scotland having a vote in Indyref2 I have reservations in respect of English students at Scottish Universities/Colleges having the vote for the following reasons:-

      They have no long term interest in the future of Scotland and will bugger of as soon as they graduate so are unlikely to support Indy.

      They are only resident in Scotland during term time and most go home during the long vacations.

      They are more than likely already on the Electoral Roll at their home address in England – something which would be taken care of if the NI No. was included on ER Entries.
      .

    422. yesindyref2 says:

      @gus1940
      You’re not alone in that by any means. Sorry about the length:

      8.26 Irrespective of whether they answered ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to Question 17, or whether they thought the residence requirement should be short or long, respondents often pointed to two groups that they thought should not be able to vote in Scotland. These were:

      People who owned property, but did not live permanently, in Scotland (referred to as ‘holiday home owners’, ‘second home owners’, ‘absentee landlords’, or ‘summer visitors’ – including those who lived elsewhere in the UK)
      Students living in Scotland temporarily (including students from EU, EEA and Commonwealth countries as well as those whose permanent home was elsewhere in the UK).

      8.27 An alternative view, expressed less often, was that these two groups should be able to vote in local authority elections only.

      8.28 Very few respondents explicitly expressed support for giving the vote to those who come to Scotland as students. However, one young people’s organisation argued that, whether someone comes to Scotland to work, live or study, they have a fundamental right to have a say in how the country and their local communities are being run. Therefore, enrolment in university, college or a school in Scotland should not be a criterion for denying a young person a vote, but rather should provide evidence of their eligibility. Another organisation suggested that overseas students should be eligible to vote in Scotland if they are studying here for more than one year.

      https://www.gov.scot/publications/electoral-reform-consultation-analysis/pages/10/

      I personally would like to see it tightened up about students, and holdiay home owners. There’s not as many of the holiday home owners as people think, but there are quite a lot of students.

      It’s not easy to work it out about students though, as some do stay on to become residents and contribute to Scotland. Maybe only for those in 3rd (or 2nd) year or above should be able to vote.



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