Wings Over Scotland

Westminster is latched on to Scotland’s oil teat, and won’t let go till forced to. Watch this space.

The interesting words there for me are “…the Conservatives under my leadership…”.

The implication being that under another leadership that may not be the case.

It would be interesting to see the ECJ rule on whether the sovereign people of Scotland can have their EU citizenship removed by the will of another country. After all we joined as the UK bound by a Treaty of Union of the two countries, does the EU recognise that Scotland as part of the UK was a signatory and at this time have voted to remain as EU citizens

Cameron said … “can’t hold parts of the UK within the UK against their will “

May has never actually disagreed, her policy has been to thwart us from clarifying our democratic wishes in the first place.

May’s approach has been … “won’t let parts of the UK express their will “

Of course, when Cameron expressed such fair and reasonable opinions, he would have been briefed that there was no chance of a YES win in any such IndyRef.

Probably in much the same way was he was lead to believe that there would be no Leave win in an EURef!

For IndyRef he had a Plan B up his sleeve. I know for certain that he intended to offer DevoMax if things for close.

As things turned out, he didn’t have a Plan B for EURef!

If the 1707 treaty was an actual treaty between two then independent countries why is there this difficulty in dissolving it?
This Union always been one subservient and one dominant. Time we got very firmly off our knees.

Since May declared that “now is not the time” the case for Independence has strengthened as we have witnessed Scottish views being totally ignored and an attempt at a power grab by Westminster that has ended up with both governments in court.

In addition even if you’ve hardly paid any attention at all to the Brexit debacle few would have missed the total shambles caused by the sheer incompetence of those that currently govern us from Westminster.

The polls maybe don’t yet reflect that in terms of % support but I’m talking arguments and justification for Independence and not of current support. The support will grow and Brexit has helped by given the arguments we can use to persuade others.

One of the main issues now though, is that we might not be dragged out of the EU against our will after all and today’s opinion given by the Attorney General brings the possibility of a second EU referendum and a Remain vote that bit closer.

What then for Indyref2 if that were to occur?

@G 12.45pm

Really ??

Either you are the last person to not know that opinion polls are NOT expressions of opinion, but rather, are manipulations by establishment lackies designed to INFLUENCE opinion NOT reflect opinion, particularly on Scottish independence.

Anyone waiting on a 50% plus Yes, set of ‘opinion’ polls is in for a very long wait.

Polling companies have databases ffs, if they want a 43% Yes 57% No poll result, they simply reference the data base, and phone up those THEY ALREADY KNOW voted in previous polls and hey presto…Yes 43% v No 57%.

Or…

You are are one of those types who post insidious, snide ridden comments with a clear message that you want people to think support for indy has stalled or is not there “so why bother”.

So, which are you ?

The Attorney General then with his opinion that Article 50 can be revoked unilaterally by the UK makes a second EUref more likely in my opinion as there would be no more issues to be resolved between the EU and UK. The UK would remain a member and I think under the terms of the current agreement including rebate and opt outs.

Sure, at this stage it’s just the AG’s opinion but the odds I think are in favour of his opinion being the same one taken by the ECJ with maybe a couple of points to be cleared up such as what is meant by “an abusive practice”?

Assuming the final ruling doesn’t change I can’t see MP’s choosing to revoke Article 50 without having a second EU referendum first. A referendum couldn’t be used after revocation because the result would be unknown and could still be leave.

You can’t put the cart before the horse, so referendum first and only with a remain vote, then revocation of Article 50 could follow.

I think the chances of this happening have been increased quite a bit. May will still have to lose the “meaningful vote”, probably twice and there is nowhere then to go if Parliament want to avoid “no deal” other than a General Election or EUref2.

A GE looks less likely to me because it doesn’t resolve anything at all no matter who wins. So EUref2 with a remain vote followed by revocation of Article 50. The fun part, is that after such an outcome then we would most likely see the collapse of the Tory government, followed by a General Election but Brexit would have been resolved.

Where an Indyref2 fits in amongst that lot I have no idea. The decision on when to go for Indyref2 is a decision for Solomon.

@geeo

“Or…

You are are one of those types who post insidious, snide ridden comments with a clear message that you want people to think support for indy has stalled or is not there “so why bother”.

So, which are you ?”

You really are a paranoid clown. How you could see anything in what I wrote as “insidious”, “snide ridden” or wanting people to “think support for indy has stalled” is beyond me. If you think opinion polls are worthless and fatally compromised then why not just say that. Loony.

My opinion,
Scotland should send a letter to the EU,that the people of Scotland wants to reverse the A50 letter, its then up to the EU to accept it or reject it.

Here’s a little help for those people on here who think that race and nationality are the same thing, they are not ,the sooner you know it the sooner you will perhaps cease to call people racists inappropriately

link to differencebetween.net

this is why i support nicola’s choice, pnr is correct, if brexit is stopped or an euref2 is called and remain wins, we will lose our mandate for indyref2.

point is, that isnt going to happen, when this goat rodeo comes to an end and the ge is called, the snp will come out of it and into the ge as the most logical, rational, competent and consistent political party in the entire uk.

they will also be seen by all remainers across the entire uk as the only voice of reason in this entire fiasco.

ruth davidson and mundell,on the other hand, will need to change their minds and campaign in scotland on behalf of their new no deal tory leader.

this will be the straw that finally breaks the donkeys back. during the ge campaign i expect to see the start of unionists crossing the floor to join the snp.

when the no deal tory party wins the ge, it will become a stampede.

nicola will launch indyref2 on the morning of the result

@wull2
They can ignore it since they will rule Scotland as a political entity has no standing in the matter so it is not germane. They will just tell us to get our independence confirmed first then they will happily talk to us about next.

Either that or it will just get bounced back to WM as an internal matter and they will continue to say No.

So there is no point in even trying it. Sorry bear such news to you but we are where we are and the lack of an ability to take that route is one reason why we need independence.

Civil war to break out in England. Oh dear what a shame. Scotland must take advantage of this chaos.

Also the irony is that last time rUK would have had a big reason not to veto our accession as if we were out of the EU it would establish an EU border (see the current Irish situation) yet WHEN we accede rUK will be in no position to veto it and it will likely establish a harder border, likely handled largely with technology and as the Irish are doing denying travel to people not welcome in the UK. iScotland, rUK and Eire (as now or reunited) could then still have a common travel area without too many problems.

We would have to have things like a completely separate NI number system to establish eligibility to live and work in different places but that shouldn’t be a big issue.

G @1.35
“Really ??

Either you are the last person to not know that opinion polls are NOT expressions of opinion, but rather, are manipulations by establishment lackies designed to INFLUENCE opinion NOT reflect opinion, particularly on Scottish independence.”

Really yourself G.

This is exactly the sort of tosh we heard before the last referendum. “Polls are manipulated – must be over 60%. Lots of shy yessers. No vote exaggerated…..”.

But when it came to the actual vote, the polls were generally accurate. So, please stop this wishful and complacent thinking, which is not helping us get over the threshold. And, by the way, your use of caps , Daily Express style, does not actually make your argument any more valid.

@geeo

“@G.

The fact that i gave you 2 options and you jumped on just one of them and attacked me, says it all.

You just confirmed what you are.”

Does it, aye? You’re a zoomer.

wull2 says:
4 December, 2018 at 1:47 pm
My opinion,
Scotland should send a letter to the EU,that the people of Scotland wants to reverse the A50 letter, its then up to the EU to accept it or reject it.

I very much like that idea.

@G

Why are you being abusive to me ?

I have not abused you.

I gave 2 options as to your original post.

One being you were last person not to know polls are a farce, the other that you are a stirrer.

It was YOU by your response, who made clear you were the latter, not me.

I shall be magmanimous and give you the opportunity to apologise for your abusive comments towards me, otherwise i shall send it to the site owner to decide what is acceptable.

Well ?

If only indigenous people were allowed to vote on stuff I’m sure the Sioux the Cheyenne and all the other great tribes of the original Americas would be delighted along with the Aborigines in Australia or Hawaiians or Maoris and indeed that would be the end of white people altogether in Africa

When you proceed down the road of ethnicity as having more rights or entitlements in a country than others who live work obey the law and pay their taxes in a country you advocate something that has been done before by very unpleasant people and was in fact one of the main drivers of the formation of the European Union that they should never again see such practices employed by despots and racists in the future which is the very reason the British Nazionalists are separating themselves from that good organisation now because they want to rid themselves of people they don’t like and Theresa May has admitted that it was indeed the main reason (in her opinion) the people of the *UK* (not Scotland) wanted to leave the EU

The end justifies the means is a poor argument when the question becomes who’s next

The whole point of sending a letter, is they cant say they did not know what the people of Scotland think.

The whole Brexshit Construct has been about protecting the elite’s tax havens from new EU legislation.

A No Deal outcome was always the plan, unless they could broker a backroom deal to protect same. So far, it does not look like the EU has blinked, indeed as time goes on, and more and more jobs and industries re-locate to the EU from Britain, any expenses that a No Deal brings up, are offset. And, being cynical about it, the EU is no stranger to tax havens, think Lichtenstein and Switzerland. At some stage, in the future, they can re-draft their tax legislation to protect their own elites. A double win for them.

Meanwhile, back in Yoonsville, all that effort and expense to create a Brexshit choice of Shit, or more shit, has just been blown out the water by the ECJ’s AG’s advice that we can stop being silly and just call the whole thing off.

And thanks to Social Media, they can’t keep this a secret, and there is enough (just) momentum with the English Remain voters that pressure will be brought to bear on the English MPs.

So what are WM’s options?

The biggest threat to their No Deal outcome is the upcoming Meaningful vote on Brexshit – it would simply HAVE to have Cancel on the ballot paper.

However, they can kick that can down the road again, if they will argue for a People’s Vote. They could argue that a PV was respecting the publics democratic will. And all the while the clock is ticking.

They could kill more time, arguing the terms of the PV – and make no mistake, keeping the Cancel option off that ballot would be a big part of that argument. And they could muster the media – again – to rally the bigots and ‘make out’ immigration was the thing.

I rather think championing the PV will be Unionist Labour’s party piece, for this round of the game.

Remember, a cliff edge brexshit, means food shortages, and potentially food riots, equals a state of emergency being declared, means Holyrood shut down. Job done.

I noticed in the Guardian’s rolling coverage of today’s events in the HoC, Jacob Rees-Mogg had reminded members that the right of MPs to attend Parliament had been in existence since 1340.

Could I suggest that, any time a Member attempts to bring-up or refer to parliamentary events prior to 1707, an SNP MP should immediately intervene with a point of order or some other device, reminding the House, the UK Parliament did not exist before 1707, and therefore, events prior to that have no relevance or historical effect, since they refer to the long-since dissolved Parliament of the Kingdom of England, not the Parliament of the United Kingdom.

It would, of course, really upset the English MPs, but, it would remind them that they cannot assume they sit in the Parliament of Greater England.

The SNP MPs MUST continually remind their English colleagues of Scotland’s place in the Union – which is as an equal partner, not a colony of England.

@ muscle guy.

Wull2 is not so far from the Mark. I have been pondering something similar for the last while cleaning my paint brushes.

I would go further, a letter to the EU and ECJ one to the UN and another to the WTO. The letters would have a generic foreword regarding the Treaty of Union and how Westminster had broken its terms by trying to remove Scotland from membership of the EU against our stated will. There could be of info regarding there conduct during Indy 1 and since, there total control of the media etc, there refusal to engage in any meaningful discourse with Scotland’s elected representatives and there refusal to enter into any discussion on an agreement regarding our right to hold a referendum.
It should detail how and why Scotland’s sovereignty is different to that claimed by Westminster and that Westminster has exceeded its administrative remit by claiming sovereignty over Scotland.

I’m not going to write a big post on this, but would add that our right to determine our form of government is being usurped, that no trade agreement entered into by Westminster using Scotland’s resources will be honoured. It could be another Declaration of Arbroath type of Doc, but most importantly it should be used to negate Westminster claim to Sovereignty, and we can prove it. Anyway, like I say, Wull2 isn’t so far away as a method of bringing Westminster to heel. In a court law, Scotland wins.

Hmmm, I wonder what part of that old article was updated in the wake of the EURef…?

Mr., Callachan I agree with all you say and I have been saying the same things on here since this site started and the same ones on here who talk against you have been talking against me and all we are asking for is fair play only those who are born and live in Scotland should be able to decide the future of THEIR country what honest and fair minded person would object to that ??? Only those who do not really want our freedom would object to that and I think they are the real trolls they want to stop Scottish independence with the help of the votes of the Incomers and false postal votes as they did the last time

Seriously though, is this true?

link to twitter.com

OT
Now on fibre, same cost basically as the ADSL2 was. Jings, 36mbits from 8, and 9 mbits upload from .8 (could have done with that this weekend).

It’s that fast I now know what Rev’s next article will be before he’s even thought of it 🙂

“Mr., Callachan I agree with all you say and I have been saying the same things on here since this site started…”

And no one here has ever denied you (or Callachan) your right to post your views here. Most just don’t share them – and for good reason.

The more likely it becomes that the SNP get their “People’s vote” for England, the more likely there will be no indyref2. Certainly, no indyref2 with a S30 from Westminster. Whether they could is an irrelevant question.

Without a S30,the SNP won’t hold an indyref. They simply don’t do “Scottish sovereignty” over Westminster sovereignty. They don’t do bold or radical under Ms Sturgeon. It’s not an insult. That’s simply not her way.

So, we’ll see what the Westminster Tories decide for Scotland.

Where is Lallands Peat worrier? It would be interesting to hear his views on the effects of all this on the treaty of Union.
His blog has been silent since 2016 when he used a picture of Richard Keen on the post.
Possibly the most smug looking individual I have ever had the misfortune to see.
(Keen not Andrew Tickell that is)
If for no other reason it would be good to see another post so I don’t have to see that smug face again!

Scotland and England equal partners.1707
Scottish law cannot be over ruled by English law
What was the supreme court challenge about then?
No taxes on Scotland if not in England.
Poll tax?

Scottish people are sovereign
People voted for remain.

We are being dragged out against the will of the people.
Are they not three breaches of the treaty?

Until the public get behind Independence getting out on a legal technicality would not stand. No matter how justifiable.

I see it’s always the same people that post on Wings that pop up in support of each other whenever someone disagrees with their particular opinion as to who should be entitled to a vote or not in another referendum.

In this case Terrance callaghan and Blair Paterson would disenfranchise the English born who live in Scotland from a vote in some sort of weird belief that this would be more “democratic”?

This is not only an unrealistic position to take but in no way can it be described as “democratic” when a vote for Independence will change substantially the lives of those that live in Scotland and not just those that were born here.

Who else should be disenfranchised in this democratic second referendum that they hanker after?

How about Catholics in Scotland who were denied the right to vote from 1728 to 1793, and the right to sit as an MP in parliament until 1829?

How about only those that own property which meant that until the end of the first world war only 40% of males over 21 were eligible to vote in any UK election?

Then there’s women of course who weren’t universally given the vote until 1928 in the UK, as only 40% of women were allowed the vote after 1918 if they were over 30 and had property when previously they had had no vote?

Democratic elections took hundreds of years to evolve to where we are today. Every voice had a say now centuries after this supposed democracy was established in the UK.

The only true democracy is when your voice counts if the decisions of those elected will effect you and you are given a vote.

No matter the religion you practise, how much land you own or money you have in the bank, no matter your sex or where you were born. If that vote will have an impact on your life then you must be entitled to one. That is why Alex Salmond, the SNP and their advisors chose the system we used in the first referendum and that will be used for any subsequent referendum.

It was chosen because it is the most democratic and the right thing to do win or lose. We’ll all just have to work harder won’t we to persuade the people of Scotland of the merits of Independence, in particular those born IN Scotland.

Many have died seeking the right to a vote, it has been hard earned and when you start deciding who shouldn’t have one because it doesn’t suit your cause or your party or favourite candidate you are heading down a slippery slope.

The whole idea and talk of it is anti-democratic.

EU citizens were not allowed to vote on the UK leaving the EU. Only fair and sensible.
Why should English citizens be allowed to vote on Scotland de-colonising from England?
It seems bonkers for folk to want English folk to vote on Scottish sovereignty.
Please don’t call me a bigot or racist as many of my family are English and agree with me.

Just because all the truth has been going our way doesn’t mean the Tories are going to cave, so far they’ve facilitated their own dictatorship and stuck to it, can they keep it up

The last straw is yet to be laid

You know that when you elect MP’s to Westminster that probably some of them will be duffers. The Tories have broken this mould and achieved a full house, 13 duffers. Completely hopeless bunch outside of being voting fodder for the head office. It’s a sight to behold, a group of totally useless MP’s.

Difficult to mention Lab or LibDem, they mostly seem to be wearing some sort of invisible cloak, I can’t remember any meaningful contribution from any of them regarding Scotland, outside ‘no referendum’ that is.

@yesindyref2

Desperate about what? Under Nicola Sturgeon’s leadership,I never expected the SNP to deliver on promises of an indyref after 2014, especially with bold Eck oot the game now.

Can you show me where the FM has said an indyref would be held even if no S30 was forthcoming and Scotland remained in the EU as part of the UK?

G 12.45

“I know some people will never change their mind, but there must be a lot of reasonably minded people who were a bit naive and would now reconsider their No vote. Anecdotally we have all seen this. So why is it not being reflected in polls?” (my bold)

What are you expecting to see “reflected” in polls?

I’m not saying polls on hot button issues are all rigged, I don’t know for sure but I am pretty sure that nowadays you’d have to be quite dense to just blithely assume that polls which are often conducted by organisations which like the EC etc are firmly embedded into the fabric of the WM regime are actually reflective of true public opinion rather than an attempt to influence it?

I have no proof but do have a strong suspicion that any polls that showed a clear and consistent increase in support for indy would never see the light of day.

What about the VOW and all the other promises broken. The lies Cameron told. All the liars are the now. The Tories trying to rake Scottish powers etc.

The Tories are arguing like rats in a sack. They are unbelievable. A GE eldction soon.

See how the land lies then. If SNP/Independence gets higher support. There is no negotiation or agreement. Go for another IndyRef. Scotland is growing away, in any case. There would have to be negotiations in any case.

So much for Nicola not mattering. May is trying to get her support for her plan. To get it through Westminster. Nicola would never vote with the Westminster Tories just to get Independence support.

The more Independent Scotland gets the higher chance Labour has of getting power in Westminster. Labour are just too thick to realise it. They might cotton on eventually.

Dugdale illegally telling Labour supporters to vote Tory. Increased Tory support at Westminster.

I notice on the radio today that the Scottish are getting a big mention in dispatches. Naughty Scottish people, naughty naughty Scottish people. Who do they think they are influencing the Brits big moment?

Lol.

How long before I hear about the tail wagging the dog?

Brexit is a matter for the Yookay don’t you know. And because the Scottish have had the temerity to open their mouths we will stick our fingers in our ears and talk over them. We’ve been doing it for years at Westminster and see how much good it has done us.

Rule Britannia ……… The great British f..k up.

Soccerknees MacSporran says:

“Could I suggest that, any time a Member attempts to bring-up or refer to parliamentary events prior to 1707, an SNP MP should immediately intervene with a point of order or some other device, reminding the House, the UK Parliament did not exist before 1707, and therefore, events prior to that have no relevance or historical effect, since they refer to the long-since dissolved Parliament of the Kingdom of England, not the Parliament of the United Kingdom.

It would, of course, really upset the English MPs, but, it would remind them that they cannot assume they sit in the Parliament of Greater England.”
_____________________________

Which is exactly why the whole Henry the Eighth malarky has no basis or legality in the HoC.

Except of course for Rees-Smog who hasn’t yet breached the 18-century..! 😉

I don’t really like popcorn, but I will buy it and give to the birds, hopefully they will use their wings and fly and tell all their friends what they have found.

O/T
Angus Robertson
?
Verified account

@AngusRobertson

BREAKING NEWS: Humiliating loss for the UK Government as MPs pass ‘contempt of Parliament’ motion by 311 votes to 293 on publishing Brexit legal advice.

OT
New passpoprt arrived, burgundy, European Union on the top, yay. If this Brexit Faragandango happens and I get to get over, I’m not standing with the rest of the third country citizens, I’m marching up to the EU desk and when they look at me odd like, I’ll say “I voted Remain, please let me in”.

Still time for any of youse whose passport is years out of date like mine was, the Post Office do a quick (week for me) service which includes an electronic photo and an electronic application, no need to run around trying to get a photo signed nor some stupid form for those like me, form blind, they do the lot.

I think from 1st Jan they’re issuing those stupid blue ones?

The pnr…..

I think you are wrong.

People on wings do not tend to stay “on topic” whatever that is, perhaps you have decided what it is for your own understanding of things but I would say that f you look at any wings post you will see that a wide range of topics are discussed on each wings post, people like to discuss and hear other points of view, in think the aim of wings is to encourage discussion of anything that people feel driven to discuss, long may it continue

@Terence callachan
What is very noticeable is that there are some, like you, who don’t share the excitement of the ECJ opinion, or the contempt of Parliament vote Proud Cybernat posted about, but come out with things that are negative for Independence.

May’s Gov in contempt of Parliament. The wheels are coming off. GE soon.

Government defeat not mentioned by big Auntie who preferred the headline.

Brexit: Full legal advice to be published after contempt vote.

🙂

@Terence callachan

I happen to think that you are wrong but I have never attacked you personally for having that opinion and it’s only your opinion itself that I haveever posted disagreement with.

What does bother thoiugh, me in particular is your use of false statistics to justify your arguments. You were given links (repeatedly) by myself and others to official census data that contradicted your assertions about the number of English born people living and voting in Scotland.

Never once have you acknowledge reading any of these official figures that corrected your lies. I won’t bother addressing any of your posts again as responding to you is a waste of my time.

The Tory government bandwagon doesn’t have that much further to run.

The wheels are coming off, contempt of parliament is just the first. pull up a chair, kick back and relax as the last three wheels on this wagon start to fall off one by one.

O/T and apologies for BBC link. Can’t find it elsewhere at the moment.

A piece of good news to share with Scotland,

link to bbc.co.uk

The gist of the matter is that someone complained about the branding of Welsh lamb in a Morrison’s supermarket with a Butcher’s Apron. Further the labelling did not contain the EU mark PGI (Protected Geographical Indicator).

The end of the story is that following the complaint, Morrisons have apologised. (Those of you wanting a fuller story, please translate yourselves – I have paid work to deal with at the moment!)

Hello Robert Sutherland …and the pnr,

Careful , some of what you say about me is incorrect.
With regards who should get to vote n Scottish independence
I openly say that Scotland should apply the rules we would apply if person were applying for a passport
That is, if they were were born here or have a parent who was born here, some people have read this sentence and been unable to grasp it because they have gone on to misinterpret it, it is very straightforward.
I accept some people don’t agree with it but that is my view on the matter.
Others do share my view , I’m not alone, I firmly believe that English people should not be able to vote for their country ENGLAND , to continue controlling Scotland.
That’s a fair and justifiable view to hold, it it a view that upholds entitlement to nationality and passports across the world.
If you were not born there and your parents were not born there you don’t qualify automatically for a passport so why should you qualify for a vote on the future of the country if you wouldn’t qualify for a passport.
Now to take matters a step further you could allow those who would not qualify automatically to qualify on the basis of have lived in Scotland for a substantial period of time, what would that be ?
5 yrs ? 10 yrs ? More ?
To get British citizenship which is a necessity before applying for a passport you have to have lived in uk for 5 yrs then you have to sit a life in the UK test , should we require that ?
It’s just not right for hundreds of thousands of English people to automatically get a vote on Scottish independence even if for example they were not born in Scotland have no Scottish relatives and have only lived in Scotland a day or one week or a few months or a year and will likely leave before too long.
It’s just not right.
There had to be a better fairer way .

19 Sept.18.

2014 ya clothhead 2014…!

Joanna Cherry lays into them, bring it on!

link to twitter.com

Read a tweet today, sorry can’t trace it, in which Tory Party leaders have instructed all their MP’s to get out among the electorate – but to make sure a cameraman is with them!
If that’s the case then, the runners and riders will soon be leaving the parade ring!

@Welsh Sion 5:53pm

Good news indeed. Kudos to the person who took on Morrisons.

Colin Alexander starting to sound like Rock.

Wait a minute could they be one and the same.

Rock = Colin Alexander = Rockshit = Britnats paid to troll.

On who qualifies to vote in IndyRef2.
Failing agreement, and since we consider ourselves very pro European, why not do what the majority of the 27 EU members do.

Tom Busza 6:17pm

Well said, Tom.

So now the Tory party has been accused of being in Contempt of WM Parliament. the question is, who are the MP’s who voted against the Tories to give the contempt vote a majority of 18

DUP plus who in the Tories?

@hackalumpoff

Ms Cherry is a class act indeed, especially at Westminster 🙂

link to twitter.com

@Tom Busza

Great to hear your voice on Wings, I agree with every word.

Helena Brown@12.46pm

It just needs Scotlands political representatives at Westminster to have the will to do so and believe they will be backed by the majority of Scots and the Scottish parliament.

@Referendum1707

Well, that’s certainly one possible explanation, and I wouldn’t be surprised if actual support was slightly higher than current polls suggest. You say you don’t have any proof that the polls are rigged, but do you have any evidence? If not, isn’t it a bit of an intellectual leap? If the SNP private polling was showing support much higher than the rigged establishment polls wouldn’t they mention this?

I’m not making any particular point, just asking the question.

T May now cutting a pathetic figure as she threatens MP ‘s that if her deal is rejected and they ask the Eu to re-open negotiations, it could have a serious effect on the deal currently agreed on Fishing rights.

How can she spout this ongoing rubbish. Does she actually think MP’s are suddenly going to change their minds – just like that?

Seems the Scottish Tories all towed the Party line on the contempt vote.

G @12.45

Ignoring geoo (who went after me on the weekend and is strugglng with a difference between a website poll and polling companies that are members of the BOC) and the general pile on re polling fro a website that commissions polls, let me answer your question.

I voted No last time. I am dismayed by Brexit. But Indy in EU when rUK is in EU is a much easier sell that either Indy out of EU, or even Indy in EU but rUK out of EU.

Put another way, post brexit UK is worse that current UK, but it makes iScot more challenging to agree for soft Nos.

I was born in England. I’ve lived in Scotland just shy of 30 years. So according to pretend blood & soil commentators here I should not be allowed to vote on Scottish independence.

My daughter moved to Scotland from England at 5 months old.She is now 28.Would you not allow her a vote?

My parents were both English born. Lived in Scotland 28 years. No vote for them?

Congratulations. You have just lost 4 yes votes.

If all Scottish born people had that attitude I would not be comfortable in this wonderful country.

Thank God you are in a very sad minority.

I identify as a Scot & so does my family. A new Scot as Alex said.

No bloody cringe here!

@gfaetheblock.

Inventing stuff that never happened again, i see.

What happened at the weekend ?

As for my poll comments, you just demonstrated you did not understand it.

Would you like it written in crayon ?

I believe there are mandatory rules regarding age limits and driving unless you can pass a further competency test, perhaps this should be considered for voting. Why should the old tory farts who had it all dictate what happens to our kids. The UK is a septic tank long overdue a good clean out, but the largest turds in there are proud Scot but 70+ brown submarines. Before anybody gets on their high horse I personally would have no issue with max age for vote.

Today Theresa May told Angus Brendan McNeill in no uncertain terms there would be no referendum on Scottish Independence ever 2014 blah blah blah (paraphrasing)

If a second referendum on Brexit were to take place that would set a precedent for a plebicite for Scotland and when those Labour and Lib Dem MPs realise that they’ll change their minds pronto and Theresa May will make sure they do realise it

So where does that leave Scotland given that we know Theresa May will without question refuse the section 30 order to create legal acceptance of the result of any Scottish referendum because she knows YES would win

This goes back to what Alex Salmond said a couple of years ago when asked said that he would proceed with a referendum then put that result to the United Nations (to which the UK is signatory) whose articles stipulate any country in a Union can secede from that Union any time they wish should a majority decide by legal methods (the UK are doing it now)

If the UK government do indeed refuse to agree to such a request for a section 30 it would be for an unprecedented second time and I believe two things

Option 1 A referendum would take place because the UK have no authority to prevent one and the results handed to the UN
Option 2 The Scottish government takes the UK government to European court of Justice because we’ll still be in the EU, and once again the Scottish government will win yet another legal case over the UK and a UK sanctioned referendum takes place anyway

So either way Scotland wins this and the UK loses, again, I’m beginning to lose count now of how many times the UK government are losing court cases to the Scottish government

You just can’t get away with Uganda style politics when you’re legally in the wrong

@pc

link to youtube.com

Both my parents – Scottish born and bred – voted NO

If Scotland relied on blood and soil Nationalism for independence, you would probably get around 1000 votes following DNA testing of course.

We have exported people all over the world,often creating rich racial mixes, whilst retaining a sense of history.
Caledonia clubs abound on every Continent, populated by every colour, creed, and status.

You try telling them they are not Scots. They would have you for breakfast. They are proud of their ancestry and heritage.

Being a Scot is not about living here or even working here.
It is about a shared value and admiration that our nation has experienced hardships and endured for hundreds and hundreds of years. I cannot rob you of these things. You either have them or you do not.

Take a real Scot like Harry Lauder ( snigger), Did his buffoonish potrayal make him more deserving of a vote than English for yes who have come to love this country and view it as home. Lauder preferred America.

Blood and soil? Shit on a stick.

Thepnr,

Likewise, I am just genuinely fascinated by the debate, but do try to not over post. I have been here since news net Scotland started editing posts and getting a bit strange.

It’s a shame things have been getting a bit techy of late, which is a shame, as whatever plays out, we all have to live here.

@Yesindyref2 7:43pm

“What would Derek Nimmo say about it all?”

Don’t know, though it would probably take him a couple of hours to say it.

@Dan Huil
Probably a whole series 🙂

@Dr Jim.

Even Farage has quit the Kippers due to links to Tommy Robinson (aka Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon).

Why Tommy Robinson ?

Apparently it is the name of an infamous football hooligan and fake tommy was envious of his infamy.

He of course has history of using fake names.
….
EDL leader jailed for being illegal immigrant after entering US on friend’s passportThe leader of the English Defence League was today jailed for 10 months after admitting using someone else’s passport to unlawfully travel to the United States.
………

Nice to see, even Farage has some standards left…he said sarcastically.

Ian Blackford talking to an almost empty House of Commons in this evening’s debate.

@Gfaetheblock 6:57pm

Thanks for the reply. Do you think the reservations about an rUK out of the EU are to do with economics, possible restrictions on freedom of movement, or something else? My feeling on it is along the lines of “well, that’s up to them”, but I daresay that’s not going to reassure anyone concerned about the implications.

On the issue of the franchise, going down some kind of ethnocentric route would be immoral, in my opinion, and I’m sure we would lose more votes than we gained. It was disgusting that EU citizens were denied a vote in the EU referendum. It would not be a good starting point for going back out into the world as an independent country, or for national unity.

Elizabeth Stanley Roon aboot the garden kicking teddy bears , this right to vote has been aired on Wings many times Ignore the Erseholes & their anti english & every ither furriner rhetoric, we’re a mongrel nation of Scots .

Could EU citizens vote in the UK Brexit Referendum.

Nicola Sturgeon has made it clear that we can only go down the Indyref2 road…fair enough, that is the SG mandate. But why would both Houses of Parliament give the agreement to the Section 30? as is stipulated in this piece of Reserved legislation?

Why has the Act of Union never been the route map for dissolving the Union? After all, an equal union, as the Act of Union supposedly is should , in constitutional Law, be a basis for one party to initiate the dissolution of a negotiated break as per Brexit. Particularly when only two equal partners exist, not 28. This was the obvious historical and legitimate approach internationally for addressing the multiple breaches of the Union, not a one off plebiscite flawed by postal fraud; electoral interference during purdah; and voting by thousands of temporary non Scottish residents with holiday homes etc.

Nicola Sturgeon has belatedly backed the disastrous ‘People’s Vote’ i.e. another feeble handing over of our fate to English votes Why?, because of a lack of evidence of support for a majority in favour of Indy in Scotland.

I have to accept that is likely, as the SNP will have very good polling intention data. But again, Why no majority after 4 years of catastrophic WM ‘government’?

Well, I believe because the SNP have distanced themselves from the whole argument of Independence. The evidence being the clear separation between the ‘YES’ marches and rallies and the SNP Leadership. For instance, where was the leadership at this years’ rallies? e.g why did Nicola feel it was appropriate to lead the ‘Pride’ march, but not the Edinburgh mass rally?
Why are disparate ‘YES’ groups left to put out adhoc leaflets and ‘Nationals’ piecemeal?

From the loss of courage in 2015 onwards to build on the mass membership recruitment by proselytising the Independence case and attacking the Unionists at every opportunity over their lies, the momentum has never been achieved amongst the 10-20% that can be persuaded to move them over. A coherent programme for dealing with the BBC and the yellow press is still absent. Where’s the Rebuttal Unit btw?

Unfortunately, I think that Scotland’s fate will once again, as was the case in the last UK wide constitutional f*ck up during the 17th century, will be resolved by civil disobedience and strife in Ireland and England because as then and now because of the exercise of Absolute Sovereignty ( this time by the English parliamentary majority) being imposed unilaterally on the peoples of these islands.

They can only vote in local and EU elections. Look on the council tax form. The ones legible to bite are on the back. It is the same in other EU countries. EU citizens are allowed to vote in local, some regional elections, where appropriate and EU elections.

The migrants voted NO in the IndyRef because they were told they would have been out of the EU. They would have had to vote YES to make a difference.

During the first independence referendum Mr Salmond, and many others, used the term ‘People of Scotland’. All inclusive as it should be of everyone who lives in Scotland whether born here or choosing to move here.

Lets continue to use that one. In the end it is not who has or has not the right to vote but whether the conduct of the vote is secure and robust enough to prevent tampering or any suggestion of tampering.

Scot Finlayson @ 20:22,

No, they can’t participate in UK general elections. They have to vote for their own country’s governmental elections instead.

Hmmm, not sure if under EU rules that would (have to) be the same for general elections in an independent Scotland. Ironic, if so.