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Wings Over Scotland

In all loyalty to the Crown

Posted on January 05, 2014 by

Continuing our daily serialisation of HJ Paton’s fascinating 1968 book “The Claim Of Scotland”, courtesy of splendidly alert and dedicated reader Wilma Watts.


“It may be noted in passing that when this Declaration was quoted by the BBC, it had to be toned down.”

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    121 to “In all loyalty to the Crown”

    1. M4rkyboy says:

      What a fascinating read.

    2. Les Wilson says:

      The book really does show how deep they have gone to subvert us. They wanted to, and still do, want to destroy all remnants of Scottish History and anything resembling Scottish pride.

    3. call me dave says:

      The more you read the greater the resolve to vote YES in the referendum. It shows how the union between the two independent countries has been a mistake, as the treatment of the larger country imposes it’s power on the smaller one.
      Little important facts raised in the book that I remember being in the news when I was young. All seemingly trivial in themselves but, when taken in the round, are devastating when weighing the evidence that Scotland was to be extinguished if England had their way.
      A great read, and a great lesson for us today, still facing the same problems.

    4. Craig M says:

      Scotia delenda est. A Unionist battle cry?

    5. Vronsky says:

      Is this off topic? I want to quote it here anyway.  For parrot, think Alastair Darling.
      The Parrot Cry
       – Hugh MacDiarmid

      Tell me the auld, auld story
      O’ hoo the Union brocht
      Puir Scotland into being
      As a country worth a thocht.

      England, frae whom a blessings flow
      What could we dae withoot ye?
      Then dinna threep it doon oor throats
      As gin we e’er could doot ye!

      My feelings lang wi’ gratitude
      Ha’e been sae sairly harrowed
      That dod! I think it’s time
      The claith was owre the parrot!

      Tell me o’ Scottish enterprise
      And canniness and thrift,
      And hoo we’re baith less Scots and mair
      Than ever under George the fifth

      And hoo to ‘wider interests’
      Oor ain we sacrifice
      And yet tine naething by it
      As aye the parrot cries.

      Syne gie’s a chance to think it oot then
      Aince we’re a’ weel awaur o’t,
      For, losh, I think it’s time
      The claith was owre the parrot!

      Tell me o’ love o’ country
      Content to see’t decay
      And ony ither paradox
      Ye think o’ by the way.

      I doot it needs a Hegel
      Sic opposites to fuse
      Oor education’s failin’
      And canna gie’s the views

      That were peculiar to us
      Afore our vision narrowed
      And gar’d us think it time
      The claith was owre the parrot!

      A parrot’s weel eneuch at times
      But whiles we’d leifer hear
      A blackbird or a mavis 
      Singin’ fu’ blythe and clear.

      Fetch ony native Scottish bird
      Frae the eagle to the wren
      And faith! you’d hear a different sang
      Frae this painted foreigner’s then.

      The marine that brocht it owre
      Believed its every word
      But we’re a’ deeved to daith deafened
      Wi’ his infernal bird.

      It’s possible that Scotland yet
      May hear its ain voice speak
      If only we can silence
      This endless chatterin’ beak.

      The blessing wi’ the black
      Selvedge is the clout!
      It’s silenced Scotland lang eneuch
      Gi’e England turn aboot.

      For the puir bird needs its rest
      Wha else’ll be the waur o’t?
      And it’s lang past the time
      The claith was owre the parrot.

      And gin that disna dae, lads,
      We e’en maun draw its neck
      And heist its body on a stick
      A’ ither pests to check.

      I’d raither keep’t alive, and whiles
      Let bairns keek in and hear
      What the Balliol accent used to be
      Frae the Predominant Pairtner here!

       But save to please the bairns
      I’d absolutely bar it
      For fegs, it’s aye high time
      The claith was owre the parrot!

    6. dadsarmy says:

      OT: It’s refreshing to be able to read and post where you don’t get “contentious” opposition, and it’s back to the fray with batteries recharged.
      The media does seem to becoming a little more informed though even including the DM and DT at times. Herald I find even-handed to the extent I think it deliberately puts in Unionist style articles to keep the balance, Scotsman is becoming surprisingly less biased, perhaps not so surprising considering droppping circulation. Guardian has some good articles, though one or two as ignorant as ever.
      Where I post is relatively easy, but checking out the profiles of up-voters and seeing where they post, I have the greatest respect for those who post in such places as the DT. Same from wearing breathing apparatus and looking at the DM occasionally, and the Record. Only 9 months to go now. Keep the heid!

    7. yerkitbreeks says:

      The fact you have “rediscovered” this book says a lot about the perceived wisdoms at the time of publication.

    8. Helena Brown says:

      Having always been keen on history I knew about Liz and the frock and handbag, I was a mere 5 years old at her crowning so much went over my head at the time. I do remember the hooha at the numbering, I am surprised we let the two Eddies go though and as for James the first, please, how was that the highest number.
      Had a bit of an argument over the Title King of Scots, according to some Englishman he was always broke and had to get money from his Earls. I did enlighten him as to the reason for the Title, that there was a High King and all the rest were considered Kings who voted for the High King. Seems we were always a democratic people.
      I had a laugh that the English considered stealing the Stone from them as some sort of grievous sin, surely repossessing was the true word. They stole it first.

    9. Les Wilson says:

      The other thing that the book brings home to me is just long Labour has been subverting Scotland in hand with the Tories. They can indeed partner and keep their differences within their deeper purpose which is really, to destroy all things Scottish.
      This in order to maintain their selfish purposes, and it started, we now know, long before oil came on the scene. They are our real enemy, a party of the people. Well, I do not know to what people they refer, it surely is not Scots. Now I realise more than ever before just why Scotland has the difficulties of so many kinds, they were bestowed on us by Labour, Tories and the Whole of Westminster. We cannot fail to win this referendum.

    10. I don’t understand all this resentment. It should be clear to all from the legal opinion published last year by Number 10’s paid lawyers that Scotland ceased to be in 1707 when it was incorporated into England.
      Since then we have been one country and one people – English. The opinion clearly states that the titles “UK” and “England” are synonymous, describing the same indivisible state. The whole world understands this, why can’t you?
      Come now, you know in your heart of hearts that this notion of independence is predicated on the ridiculous delusion of our uniqueness as a people and a country.
      The truth is when Scots confirm this view by rejecting all that separatist rubbish in September, it will herald the final descent of the remnants this of divisive culture into obscurity and obsolescence. 
      Voters should be clear that one the have given up their God-given right to self-determination by voting NO to independence there will be no way back. 
      They can be assured that once they have done so, though their region will be permanently subsumed as a neglected and reviled low-opportunity Celtic backwater, England will continue to punch above her weight!
      We’re better together!

    11. Papadocx says:

      Since there is no written constitution and never has been, the English ruling classes just make it up as they go along. The Scottish side of this union was to do as it was told and keep the daft Scots quiet, and they would be allowed at the big counting house table and share in the divvying up of the loot. AYE BETTER THE GITHER. English deceit and Scottish treachery Of the unionist parties.

    12. Les Wilson says:

      I would not give ANY credence to anything published by number 10, not even if lawyers said their piece, why?, because they they are all working under an umbrella of deceit. END OF!

    13. Papadocx says:

      In 1707 the people of Scotland got no vote whether we erased the ancient country of Scotland from history and became a vassal of England. In the referendum we are being given the chance to legitimise the end of our own country. 
      YES means there is a SCOTLAND.

      For the mentally challenged there is NO STATUS QUOE! just another con.

    14. jake says:

      Christian Wright said: “I don’t understand all this resentment.”

      You’re a cheeky wee monkey…and I like your style.

    15. Robert Kerr says:

      Is Christian Wright being sarcastic?

    16. Better Together St Kilda says:

      Christian Wright is most welcome to post comments on our facebook page – UKOK.

    17. Murray McCallum says:

      I have little time for the monarchy and the odd language and courtesies that appear to surround it. I am not that interested in waving flags either for that matter. A sense of nation does not depend on such things.
      However, as I continue to enjoy this book I see that the dilution of one set of ancient symbols can, over time, lead to the perceived ‘”superiority” of one people over another. By “superiority”, I mean in a sense of history, national achievement and therefore standing in the world.
      It seems to me that the campaign against Scotland becoming a country running its own affairs is totally bereft of her history. They seem to take joy in the “UK family” even though all the trappings of this family are the clothes of England.

    18. msean says:

      This book is enlightening ,I see that some Scots have always had their eyes on the ball. Thanks,you will receive your rewards in September.

    19. Papadocx says:

      The reason David Cameron is so agreeable and relaxed about the referendum. A no vote will mean he can wash his hands of killing off the rebellious Scots, we will have voted for suicide and he will hand SLAB the open razor to do the needy.
      Should Scotland try to raise its head in the future, we will have the result of the referendum waved under our nose, and told to get on with it. JOB DONE. the end, proud Scots no more!

    20. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      I am skim reading the chapters as they unfurl. I will print out, auld geezer, and read the who front to back and in reverse.
      What I have to say is how beautifully and fluidly it is written.
      Stewart Maxwell’s book is exactly the same. Eloquent, simple to read and dynamite.

    21. BeamMeUpScotty says:

      Do we agree that we are English?

    22. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Should a YES vote come to pass I will mount an attempt that the late author, G H Paton and the late Stephen Maxwell be accorded so honour of Scotland, posthumously.
      I invite others to contirbute their thoughts as to who else should we so honour.
      Not here though. Maybe in Quarantine, for the  mo.

    23. Schiehallion! Schiehallion! says:

      @ Christian Wright
      A prospect guaranteed to make the ProudScotch drool, heralding the triumphant apotheosis of the Labour Party, set to keep us permanently in our preordained and servile place, as a wee favour to their paired-up bosom pals opposite. Its image, a parrot stamping in the human face forever.
      YES or bust.

    24. CameronB says:

      What Christian Wright said. 🙂
      Re. the legal opinion of Westminster’s legal advisers, that Scotland ceased to exist in 1707. I wonder if the Church of Scotland and all of our other national institutions, have an opinion on the matter? Could they be sued for centuries of misrepresentation and passing-off?

    25. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      I think that would be an insult to the many English born or English inclined who are for a YES vote.
      The real enemy is not a nationality and not a people. It is a political system which is equally as parasitic upon them.

    26. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Cameron B
      Re. the legal opinion of Westminster’s legal advisers, that Scotland ceased to exist in 1707.
      I wonder if these “legal advisers” were all English Law academics?

    27. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      On a related housekeeping topic,
      I click, not always, the box for update comments but none arrive. I used to receive an e-mail asking to me subscribe to the same from WordPress or summat similar but no longer also.

    28. Murray McCallum says:

      The paper “Scotland analysis: Devolution and the implications” was published in February 2013. One of the key legal (international law) advisors was Prof James Crawford.
      Prof James Crawford appeared on the Queens birthday honours list June 2013
      “Professor James Richard CRAWFORD, Cambridge, Britain. For eminent service to the law through significant contributions to international and constitutional legal practice, reform and arbitration, and as a leading jurist, academic and author.”
      I like to think that his services to international and constitutional legal practice were down to his expert opinion on the time scale for a country to negotiate international treaties and memberships.

    29. CameronB says:

      @ BtP
      Obviously they will have been English Law academics, as there is no such thing as Scots Law. There can’t be as Scotland does not exist. It’s just a pretend judicial system for a pretend country. Helps to keep the natives under control, though I don’t understand why. 🙂

    30. Craig M says:

      The whole point of the Union as originally conceived was to finance England, provide resources in terms of manpower, with the bonus result being an empire. With the empire long gone, at least in a physical sense, there is no justification for the continuation of the union. The difficulty with this is that the mindset and social structure evident in 1707 is still in place. It’s quite literally a medieval state (in the sense of structures in place to run a country). In 1707 the Scottish elite benefited, i.e. were bribed and accepted this bribe in exchange for losing a nation. That reward system is still in place, it’s just had a make over.

      The Scottish elite have morphed into political parties, e.g. the Labour and LibDems. The rewards are the same, cash, power and privilege. The medieval state is still intact, with 785 unelected Lords, including many undemocratic Scots Lords, such as Foulkes, Forsyth, Adams etc. The Commons is just another vehicle for the elite to take advantage of the rewards where Scottish Labour and LibDems do this with gusto.

      Something that is not properly understood with regard to the UK is that it is very well short of being a functioning democracy. At best it is a Controlled Democracy, with control exercised by Labour, LibDems and Tories through the media. The Scottish referendum absolutely terrifies them as it will be a Jericho moment. Those medieval walls will come tumbling down and will usher in change. The elite don’t want this.

      That is what is being played for here. Scottish Independence will be a catalyst for delivering true democracy throughout the British Isles. That is the real prize and real advocates of social justice and open democracy should grasp this. Those who appose Scottish Independence are simply medieval in thought. 

    31. dadsarmy says:

      “Professor James Crawford awarded Australia’s highest honour in Queen’s Birthday Honours List”
      He moved to Cambridge from Australia in 1992.

    32. thomas says:

      @ Helena
      I`m not a monarchist but on this subject i don`t think pro monarchist Englishmen have a leg to stand on.
      The Scottish at least to a certain degree had a native monarchy that  went back centuries , but later began to ape the manners , language and customs of the French.(then English)
      The English on the other hand haven’t had a native monarch since that wee French guy sailed over and slaughtered them in 1066. England was then ruled from France for the next two centuries or so , many kings like Richard the Lionheart barely setting foot on their soil.
      To top it off none of them spoke a word of English till the mid 14th century , then when they did go native the line died out and they came to us begging for our King.
      As for the “ An Lia Fail “ or the Stone Of Destiny , why does Celtic legend say its a black stone carved in celtic designs but the one they had was a red sandstone block given to them by the guardian priest?? ( possibly a cesspit lid?)
      Rumour has it that the kings of England and Britain have been getting crowned on a lavvy lid these past centuries

    33. Morag says:

      A manhole cover of some sort.  What sort of manhole is pure guesswork.  Would such a heavy stone be used to cover a cesspit that would need regular attention?
      One suggestion was that it was the manhole that covered a flight of steps leading down from the ground level of Arbroath Abbey to a crypt-like chamber where the stone was usually kept.  I don’t know if there is any evidence for the existence of such a chamber though.

    34. creigs1707repeal says:

      Apologies – O/T
      A new Indy site has popped up:
      It’s a great portal site with many important articles, quotes, videos etc on all the key issues in a nice and neatly presented and accessible format. Spread the word. (Is this your ‘Wee Blue Book’ Rev?)

    35. Andrew Morton says:

      Doctor James Wilkie drew my attention to this site and I’ve included it in my regular posts on the Scotsman comment pages.

    36. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @creigs1707repeal –
      Thanks for the link.
      Smart site – the number of Yes versus No groups speaks volumes.
      (Just needs to get the latest WoS logo.)

    37. pictishbeastie says:

      On the subject of the “Stone of Destiny” that they have in Edinburgh Castle, as someone who spent most of his life, from the age of 11 months, in Scone I’ve always referred to it as the Cludgie Stane.

      The story I’ve heard, and believe, was that the monks at the Abbey of Scone were well aware that the English Army were coming to steal the stone and spirited the original away, possibly to Dunsinnan. They then quite deliberately fobbed the invaders off with a “cludgie stane”, which seems particularly apt. 

    38. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Pomp, pageantry, loadsa flags, smart soldiers, fairytale horse-drawn carriages, you-name-it…
      Check out the slide-show linked-to below. Images from Sheikh Khalifa’s UK state visit, May 2013.
      What? You didn’t know there had been a State visit? Well, have a good look, cause you helped pay for it. (n.b. the place-settings, at slide 8 or so)

    39. Jingly Jangly says:

      Its probably still hidden, a mate reckoned that Stonehaven came into being about the time the real stone disappeared, don’t think so my self as the name Stonehaven is a fairly modern corruption of the original name Stonehyve, however who is to say that the name did not change due to the Stone of Destiny being associated with the district, after all if you were going to hide it, where better than far away  Dunnottar Castle?

    40. Ian Brotherhood says:

      And what about these images here?
      In all honesty – if these were etchings rather than photographs, would most folk be confident about guessing when the event happened?
      They’re only six decades old – this is the twenty-first century we’re in FFS!

    41. msean says:

      More likely buried or cast into a loch rather than have it be captured. Whatever,they appear to have taken  the wrong stone .

    42. Morag says:

      Its probably still hidden, a mate reckoned that Stonehaven came into being about the time the real stone disappeared,
      It would be nice to think someone actually knows where it is, but I think that’s a pipe dream.  It’s been over 700 years.  And it doesn’t seem to have surfaced again in the 14th to 16th centuries.  I mean, why not produce it for one of the coronations in the period when the realm was relatively secure and the English crown wasn’t being particularly obnoxious?

    43. dadsarmy says:

      Having read it, even now it’s surprising how often Scotland has been kicked in the bezants, no longer d’or but very much d’azure. Death by a thousand cuts – we must be into the high 900’s by now, and it can go either way. Either the 1,000th with a NO vote “extinguishes” Scotland for good and all, or just before, the majority find some new bezants and vote YES.
      Thinking about the UK Gov’s first whitewash paper, they have focussed on the Treaty of Union, and in terms of strategy I think it shows just how much importance they place on it. They had to find an Australian origin professor to do the deed for them, who was probably unaware of the swathes of history. And then use it as a basis for the 2nd and further whitewash papers. But chapter III above shows that perhaps the Union of Crowns also needs revisiting, after a YES. As a bare minimum the Church of Scotland have it right – any further Coronations must also take place in Scotland.
      Berwick – the Royal Burghs were mentioned in the Acts of Union, unfortunately not by name. My feeling is that Berwick should go for an Isle of Man status, and possibly split itself tax-wise in two. I feel it stands to clean up on cross-border trade, as could Gretna.

    44. dadsarmy says:

      Stone of Destiny. There are families that go way back, and if one took it into their protection I doubt they would reveal it until Scotland was secure, which can only be achieved by Independence. But that would be after Independence day in 2016, not immediately after a YES vote. There may be some provenance …

    45. Ian Brotherhood says:

      And, of course, we’ve always been subsidising stuff like this:

    46. alexicon says:

      I see in the printed version of the mail on Sunday today they were trying to evoke the spectre of Scottish terrorism by reporting on the rise of a alleged Scottish armed group around 1933.
      Very subtle.

    47. Chickenhawk 2 says:

      Ah yes, I remember being led, with the rest of the school pupils, up to University Avenue, to wave a wee flag at Betty as she went by in her limo. Must have been just after the coronation.
      On the Scone stone, why would any king be crowned on an old piece of sandstone when there is granite, or whin, basalt all available. Something that looks the part, not something a mason could knock out in a day.
      The English were given a pup.

    48. Albamac says:

      Just finished Chapter 3. Help yourself.
      Chapter 1
      Chapter 2
      Chapter 3

    49. Morag says:

      Stone of Destiny. There are families that go way back, and if one took it into their protection I doubt they would reveal it until Scotland was secure, which can only be achieved by Independence. But that would be after Independence day in 2016, not immediately after a YES vote. There may be some provenance …
      I have to feel that’s the pipe dream, but I suppose it’s not outwith the bounds of possibility.
      There was a letter in the Herald some time in the 1960s or 70s where the writer described having seen a stone answering to the description gathering dust in a corner of some old church somewhere, but when they’d gone back later to check it wasn’t there any more and nobody knew anything about it.
      (Yes, you’re right, I have harboured a romantic notion about this for many decades.)

    50. CameronB says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood
      Sorry mate, but that link is dead.
      It is disputable just how much it costs us directly to support the monarchy, but the hidden cost of supporting the medieval social structure it entails, must be apparent to all by now. As potentially the energy capital of Europe, how many food banks can Scotland also boast. And remember, there will always be a ‘Proud Scot’ happy to offer their congratulations and support for the new ventures.
      Then there is the issue of members of the royal household avoiding tax, but that is another can of worms.

    51. Jingly Jangly says:

      Betty visited here back around the turn of the century, I was in Italy on business so unfortunately missed her.(WST) However there is a well kent local who was at uni in England, she visited said uni, he poked his head through the limo windae and said “Home Rule for Scotland” It was the mid sixties,  fast forward forty years and he gets a visit from Special Branch just to make sure he stays at home when Betty comes visiting. I kid ye not…

    52. dadsarmy says:

      There’s some old proverb about hiding secrets in plain view. Maybe it’s hidden under Wellington’s statue, and the cones are to represent, errrr, ummm.

    53. dadsarmy says:

      Just go up to the address line, to the end, and back one – there’s a space at the end.

    54. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @CameronB –
      Bummer. Which one? What time-stamp?
      On the Stone of Destiny, seems everyone has a story. Mine, via my Granda, is that the one nicked from the Abbey was taken to a monumental sculptor (whose business was on Sauchiehall Street, where Mr Chippy or suchlike is now situated, across from the Variant Bar) where a copy was made.
      The problem with replicating the original (where I’m remembering this from I know not, but the details are clear, in my heid at any rate) was that it had, at some point in ancient history, been split, then repaired. It took time to find suitable stone which would lend itself to similar damage.
      Eventually, one was found, and the ‘split’ was made, but – before the ‘repair’ job was done – the naughty Nats inserted the banner from that day’s Glasgow Herald, along with a handwritten message which said, in essence, ‘get it right round ye’s‘.

    55. CameronB says:

      @ dadsarmy
      Cheers. Good to see you back posting.

    56. creigs1707repeal says:

      “…wherever the Stone rests, the race of Erc shall rule…”
      The symbol of Scottish nationhood (the Stone of Scone) rests once more in Scotland and with it, so the prophecy goes, the Scots will rule one more. (The Scottish Kings were descended from the Irish Kings. thus the royal line of Scots are descendants of the first Dalriadic King—King Erc).

    57. CameronB says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood
      Your last link at 9.20pm. Dadsarmy suggested a fix, but I must be a little too thick to get it to work. Don’t worry though, I don’t really want to have my face rubbed in it again anyway. 😉

    58. Robert Kerr says:

      Many thanks for this ongoing work.
      Best thing that could happen now is a copyright contention. Then it all goes wide open. There is no bad publicity for this one.

    59. Albamac says:

      Coronation memories.
      Lining the kerb  for ages clutching our wee flags.
      Trip to the cinema to watch coronation in glorious colour.
      Free tin of toffees with a portrait of Lizzie on the lid and a shiny new florin taped to it.
      She’s a real saft touch that yin!  Took her fur two bob in 1953 an’ another shillin’ ten years later.

    60. Albamac says:

      @Robert Kerr
      You’re very welcome, Robert, an’ it keeps me aff the street.

    61. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Robert Kerr –
      Wouldn’t this be covered under the usual ‘Fair Use’ disclaimers you see on a lot of academic stuff?
      FWIW, this just shows the gulf between BT and the overall pro-Indy campaign – they’re worrying about how to con people, and we’re fretting about covering ourselves because we’re distributing genuine knowledge?
      We’ve yet to see anyone on the BT side refer to any tome, modern or otherwise, which states a clear, rational case for the Union. Simple fact is, they’re too busy trying to keep one another in a job from week to week.
      ‘History’ is not their forte – it is their fate.

    62. @ Caesar!mac  9.31
      Did you use OCR to create the PDFs or did you type them up?
      If you have them as text I would be happy to turn them into other formats, eg .mobi (for Kindle) and make them available.

    63. @ Ian Brotherhood 7.58pm

      I’ve changed the Wings graphic to include the new logo now – thanks for reminding me

      337 unique visits yesterday – not bad for a new site. Hopefully it will bring a few lost souls here over then next few months.
      (I’ve reposted this as my last version seems to have fallen foul of the formatting police 🙁 )

    64. braco says:

      ‘History’ is not their forte – it is their fate.

    65. Albamac says:

      @Scots Renewables
      Typed.  I could turn it out in just about any format,  including ebooks, but didn’t think it worthwhile to compile a book until all the chapters were in.
      Just wanted to create something usable for Wingers without jumping the gun on Stu’s serialisation.
      My PDFs aren’t protected. Couldn’t you work from them?
      p.s. almost typed Sots Renewables.  That could be a vote-winner! 🙂

    66. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @CameronB –
      I tried it and it didn’t work for me either. Sorry.
      Oh well. It was just a photie of the Chooky Embra, with new wife, posing in front of a dead tiger, with a couple of huge servant-bearing elephants and assorted high-heid yins….we’ve seen it all before.
      Maybe the best form of attack is sheer mockery, so I’ll leave it with this – Billy Connolly, at approx 2.25 (but you’ll watch it all anyway, right?) :

    67. Ken500 says:

      The Monarchy costs UK Exchequer £40million a year. Increased £5Million in the 2010 Budget. They say it costs the taxpayers each £6 or 60p? a year. They are all multimillionaires. Queen’s personal fortune is reckoned to make her one of the wealthiest women in the world. Victoria was reckoned to be relatively skint (by Royal standards). They got so wealthy by not paying tax for years until relatively recently. (tax avoidance/evasion?)

      Diana left the £17million divorce settlement she got from Charles to William/Harry. Thry got access to it at 25? It left Charles a bit short of the readies. (by Royal standards). They own vast estates etc., and have access to other properties own by the State. The worth of their income is keep secret by Westminster. They slapp ‘Orders’ on it so they can’t be disclosed. The Guardian
      has been campaigning through the Courts for years to find out the details of their fortunes. They still will not disclose the letters Charles sends to Government Ministers/departments with complains etc. Unconstitutionally – he is supposed to be apolitical and keep out of Government business. ‘The spidery’ correspondence. His handwriting is supposed to be ‘spidery’.

      The Queen gave Anne a personal gift of a £Million estate when she married Mark Philips. The Queen Mother, liked a drink and a comfortable life left debts of £3Million when she died. The Queen paid them off. Charles got the Castle of Mey, and took over her publicly funded accomodation in London. ? House. The Queen is said to switch of the heating and watch the pennies. The £pounds look after themselves. Their personal rooms are a bit shabby. Tupperware cereal containers etc. The dogs 9? Get Good meat. a chef prepares the grub. The Queen was displeased because the meat was frozen and heated up. : – }
      Breeds dogs laboradors for shooting pursuits.

      Balmoral (privately owned – Victoria) is a draughty hole. It provides some employment for the locals. The locals love the Royals. Fly Union Jacks etc. They bring in some business. Charles
      gave land to build houses for people on the waiting 70. Helped do up Braemar Castle – brings in the tourists.

      Personally not much bothered. It is certainly not a game changer, keeping the
      Monarchy or not. The majority of the electorate want to keep monarchy. Sometimes an elected head of gov, creates two political power bases, and there is stalemate eg the US. The Royals should slim down and keep quiet. The Royals are ceremonial head of the Mason. The Order of
      the Garter?

      About 8% of people own 75% of Scottland – vast estates. (secrecy) Often absentee (foreign) landlords based in London. The whole of the land from Braemar to Perth is owned by one landowner. Cameron is a fourth? cousin to the Queen. Cameron’s family has/had an estate near Huntly. There is a stature there to his great Uncle. He died in a War?

      At one time 7% of people owned 84% of the land. The 7/84 Theatre Group.


    68. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      The tiger pic just got a rogue space added to the end of the link. Have fixed it.

    69. Ken500 says:

      Copyright (Law) only last for a certain period. – 30 years or such. Conan Doyle estate tried to stop an author from writing Sherlock style stories. In California? They got knocked back. The judge said the 30 year copyright had expired. The estate had wanted £3000 from the author. They can appeal.

    70. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Rev –
      Cheers. And apologies for the embedded Connolly clip – honestly have no idea how I did it.

    71. creigs1707repeal says:

      I’ve been doing a rough analysis of the UP/DOWN votes on the Herald’s site. In the analysis I count only the guest votes as these do not require a Herald account and are generally made by lurkers.  Down votes can only be made by those who have Herald accounts. What is evident to even the most casual viewer is the fact that YES contributors have far fewer DOWN votes (by far) than those supporting NO. This suggests that there are far more people (with Herald accounts) that are YES supporters, giving the NO people much more DOWN votes. 
      The ‘guest voters’ cannot give DOWN votes, only UP votes. Once again the UP vote for the YES side from guest voters is way in excess of that for the NO contributors. So, among the regular posters YES is way ahead in votes and this is the same with the ‘guest’ vote.
      Not a particularly scientific analysis I know, but interesting nevertheless.

    72. Ken500 says:

      Billy Connelly : – } is getting frail.

    73. JOHN MACGREGOR says:

      Like my grandfather always said, A little piggy at the trough never thrives, the bigger one makes sure of that.

    74. Jingly Jangly says:

      Copyright law is subject to the rule of Disney, when Micky Mouse is nearly out of Copyright then the goalposts are moved, the UK follows on from the US. Copyright law now is about 70 years after the death of the author.

    75. TJenny says:

      creigs1707repeal – re the up clicks on comments in The Herald – although it states that you have to be registered to vote down a comment (I’m not), I have watched the total number go down when I click up, and down again on re-clicking. Needless to say any time I do read an Herald article I don’t bother anymore with the up/down arrows.
      I have a feeling that others have posted re encountering the same up/down problem, so perhaps the lurking Herald Yes vote is even larger than you think. 🙂

    76. Morag says:

      Conan Doyle married a young wife not that long before he died, and she had a hand in one or two of his later Sherlock Holmes stories.  That hugely extended the copyright period, and the makers of STTNG got a hell of a shock when the copyright holders contacted them about the Sherlock Holmes scenes in the holodeck.
      There are probably copyright issues with this thing, but they may not surface in practice.

    77. Ken500 says:

      There is some kind of throning? stone in the grounds of Scone Castle, Perth.

    78. twenty14 says:

      O/T – talking about moving the goalposts
      Hope I’m staying within the guidelines Rev

    79. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Seems BT had a charity football match somewhere tonight. I’ve only seen one clip so far, but it doesn’t look good for new, slimline Blair McDougall, being stretchered off by people he hand-picked for the job:

    80. Jingly Jangly says:

      Think the one at Scone is a copy but not the copy made of the sandstone fake that was repatriated from Wastemonger. One of my mates mother worked at the stonemasons in Glasgow that made the copy from the fake and I believe that all the wokers got a piece of the original fake or perhaps it was the copy of the fake!!!

    81. Wilma Watts says:

      Since sharing The Claim of Scotland on Wings, with Reverend Stuart’s help, I am so heartened by the response of all the commenters. I must explain that it was given to me by an English friend who is strongly in favour of Scottish Independence. Every time we discussed the subject she said she had a book that I had to read. If I had read it in 1968 it would have changed my life. I feel so strongly about it that I think it should be distributed to schools. As discussed previously we were never taught Scottish history and I don’t think that has changed. 
      Caesar!mac: you are doing a great service by making it so much easier to read.

    82. Ken500 says:

      The Scottish Crown Jewels kept in Edinburgh Castle, most impressive, were once hidden by a Priest, near Dunnottar Castle, Stonehaven. Kinneff.

    83. Paul says:

      O/T I don’t know how long it has been running but an on line poll by the site No Scotland has NO at 3444 or 12.65% and YES at 23792 87.35%

    84. Jingly Jangly says:

      Were they not kept at Dunnottar Castle itself and smuggled out when Cromwells mob tried to get hold of them to destroy!!!

    85. call me dave says:

      Stone of Destiny stuff here. Choose your own favourite version. Wee bits to on the reclaiming the stone in 1950.
      I was trying to find information about Alison and Keeran Macintosh (see book) who refused to pay income tax because of the controversy about Elizabeth II or Elizabeth I but no luck so far.

    86. creigs1707repeal says:


      Yes, I’ve noticed the same UP/DOWN problem with the Herald site. I think this may be a simple issue with the site’s cookies. When you refresh the browser page, the true value of the UP/DOWN votes usually always comes back.

    87. Ken500 says:

      Would have to check. Google it. It was at some Uprising. The fact it was a Priest who buried them, suggests it was before the Reformation. They could have been hidden:buried at Dunnottar Castle. Maybe there wasn’t time. Dunnottar is totally defensible, with enough supplies, virtually impenetrable. It was like a small village, with different buildings for various tasks. Kitchens, long halls etc. Perched on the Cliff.

      Until relatively recently Scottish History could only be studied at University level, little was taught in schools.People do not know their own history. That is changing. Scottish history would fire the pupils imagination. It is so rich and varied, all blood and gore, battles, kings and queens. The pupils being engaged would help the teachers to teach them.

    88. Ken500 says:

      David Horsburgh knew all about Scottish History/Scottish studies. He should have been a Professor. University clique’s!

    89. dadsarmy says:

      Copyright – I looked it up and it’s 70 years now since 1989 or something, but only for works after that. The previous copyright was for 50 years from death if known of the author, or first publication of works, whichever is later. That still stands. There are exceptions, not so much fair use, but one is apparently for news reporting. Well, this is a news site, so I guess that could be a “defence”. Good idea to store the pdfs on a different website 🙂
      Herald – I’ve looked at up votes regularly, and there’s a few lurkers in the registered vote-ups that haven’t commented at all. Some vote-up “good postings” regardless of the side they’re on. One or two posting Unionists and Independentists do the same. I think that’s a great idea. I try to vote up good postings from Unionists, while usually replying I disagree with what they say, as there are so few good postings from Unionists – most are of the hysterical or completely unrealistic sort. I rarely vote down, unless a poster is being an AH. I get voted down whenever I criticise the SNP LOL 🙂 But I try not so much to be even-handed as I’m clearly biased, but to be totally honest. Helps to pass the time at sea.

    90. Andrew Morton says:

      The Honours of Scotland were smuggled out of Dunnottar Castle by the local minister’s wife (I think) and buried under the floor of Kineff Parish Kirk.
      Re the Stone of Destiny, there is a report in the Morning Chronicle in 1820 of the discovery of a mysterious, carved stone in a chamber exposed by a landslip following heavy rain. I think the discovery was on Kinnoull Hill just east of Perth on the north bank of the Tay. The report said the Stone was being sent to London.

    91. Taranaich says:

      @dadsarmy: OT: It’s refreshing to be able to read and post where you don’t get “contentious” opposition, and it’s back to the fray with batteries recharged.

      Sites like Wings are a great and valued tonic for me. Sometimes I think Yes Scotland should have an official support group for Yes voters in No-dominated areas. There are a fair few in Inverclyde, which does lend it something of an air of “the resistance,” but it can get pretty demoralising at times. Hell, after some of the nonsense we get (one left-leaning person couldn’t understand how we didn’t already have “everything we wanted” from current devolution – but didn’t seem to realise that we don’t, in fact, have ANY power over things like finances or defense) it’d be nice just to turn up somewhere and have a hug. I’m glad I have my mammy and other Yes friends, but still, I wish we could have the strength and support of Operation Neptune rather than the loyal-but-small Maquis.

      creigs1707repeal: A new Indy site has popped up:

      Jings, I had no idea there were so many pro-Union sites! That said, it’s missing the Red Paper Collective (or do they not count?)

    92. creigs1707repeal says:

      True stone or fake stone–I think we miss the point.
      I remember in 1990 visiting Westminster Abbey and looking at the stone under the coronation chair. I had to look at it through iron bars as it was sealed off by a protective iron fence. The message of this image struck me loud and clear: “Here lies Scotland, imprisoned, held shackled by England.”
      I will never forget that thought. It stayed with me all the way through the shock victory of John Major in 1992, whereupon I began to actively campaign to have the Westminster stone returned to Scotland. (I didn’t care that it was the true stone or not–it was a piece of Scotland imprisoned and the symbolism utterly enraged me). To that end I fired off a number of letters to John Major, expressing the symbolic nature of the stone and how, as part of his ‘Taking Stock’ exercise, it would be seen as a gesture of reconciliation to have the Westminster stone returned to Scotland.
      I kept up the pressure, as did some others until the announcement was made to return the stone to Scotland. For me the triumph was not in the return of the stone per se, but the removal of the symbolism of a subjugated Scotland from Westminster. I was even invited by the Scottish Office to express my preference as to where the stone should be relocated upon its return to Scotland. I did not respond as I was not particularly interested where it ended up. The point for me was the removal of that horrid symbolism from Westminster Abbey.

    93. Albamac says:

      @Wilma Watts
      “Caesar!mac: you are doing a great service by making it so much easier to read”
      Thanks, Wilma, much appreciated.  Converting to mobi format now.

    94. Chic McGregor says:

      Even allowing for an ensuing 5 decades of sleekit London Establishment machination and propaganda which we have to contend with but which which H J Paton’s generation had not yet ‘benefited’ from, it is rather remarkable just how prescient and aware his view of things was.  Hats off to his memory.

    95. Chic McGregor says:

      “Think the one at Scone is a copy but not the copy made of the sandstone fake that was repatriated from Wastemonger. One of my mates mother worked at the stonemasons in Glasgow that made the copy from the fake and I believe that all the wokers got a piece of the original fake or perhaps it was the copy of the fake!!!”
      I’m a Scone man and the local legend there is that Psycho Eddie’s henchmen were given the stone that held down the main cesspit cover.


    96. Chic McGregor says:

      ‘which which’ should have been ‘from which’ of course. And the ‘from’ at the end of the phrase deleted. Got the sentence structure confused, sorry, guilty of not editing before posting again.

    97. Jamie Arriere says:

      Dundee Courier 29/11/68 :
      “In 1818 the Laird of Dunsinane (Mr Nairne) organised a search party to investigate. After some excavation a large stone of meteoric or semi-metallic substance was partly unearthed. But the ground collapsed suddenly under the excavators’ feet and, utterly frightened, they decided to leave things as they were.
      They had no doubt, however, that the stone they’d seen was the original coronation stone. The hilltop fort is now preserved by the Office of Works. Was this excavation of exactly 150 years ago ever followed up?
      Is the Stone of Destiny still on Dunsinane Hill?”

    98. Ken500 says:

      Different versions of happening (myths) must have been handed down orally The way vocal History was handed down. Historians have to go in and examine the facts. Find the relevant relating documents, often stored away in Church records or archives, newspapers etc. and write up the History. The Glasgow Uni Centre of Scottish Studies have a large collection of oral recordings of Historical facts, and continue to record oral history. Hamish Henderson was closely involved in recording oral History. Hamish Henderson? did a study involving tinkers/gypsies? Recorded all their songs etc.

      Before education became complusary/inclusive many people couldn’t read or write. Many pupils left school at 14 in the early 1900’s. Education Act 1948, history was passed down orally through storytelling, word or song. That is how people spent their (limited?) leisure time, telling stories and singing songs, playing music. An extensive Doric and Western Isles archives recording has been built up. Scottish Studies depts. Are referenced from all over the world.

    99. Ken500 says:

      People who support Independence should refrain from too much criticising of Alex & Co and the SNP/Gov. Not because they don’t need criticising and people are entitled to do so, but because it is a bit of an own goal. Alex and Co, the Scottish Gov get so much unwarranted criticising, for Independence supporters to join in at such a crucial time in Scottish history is self-defeating.

      The SNP Scottish/Gov are like the little Red hen fighting the cause, getting criticisms from all sides and then when the goal is achieved, the critics want to take the Benefits. Or. The (unwarranted) criticisms from Independence supporters could be seized upon by Non Independence supporters to put off people from voting for Independence. Counter productive. Sometimes it seems like a Sport.

      The SNP Gov should try and put crucial changes in a Manifesto, wherever possible, so people can vote on it. It is often not possible when Westminster is constantly (illegally) cutting the Scottish Budget and (illegally) interfering in Scottish affairs. Contravening the agreement of 1707 Union that ratified by both government that citizens in both countries should be treated equally under the Law of both countries.

    100. Ken500 says:

      Many people joined the SNP to fight for Independence. That was their prime aim. YES Scotland sometimes get criticised by Independence supporters for not stepping up to the mark but people forget the Yes Scotland Campaign was just set up recently. It is a fledgling organisation learning and getting experience as it grows. Political Parties are organised and have years of experience already, by comparison.

    101. caz-m says:

      Blair Jenkins and Blair Mcdougall on BBC Scotland GMS after 8am this morning.

      Also Larry Flanagan EIS on GMS complaining again that Scottish teachers just can’t cope with changes to school exams.

      Flanagan is on the board of Project Fear and his only motive is to stick the boot into the Scottish government and Scottish Independence.

      If you think he is unfit to lead the teachers union then email the EIS and tell them to stop making party political points and that Mr Flanagan should resign.

      enquiries [at] eis [dot] org [dot] uk

    102. setondene says:

      There was a story in the press many years ago that the original and authentic Stone of Destiny was being kept in hiding by an organisation known as the Scottish Templars who were led by a Church oF Scotland minister in Dundee.
      I was taught Scottish history in the 1950s and 60s at school.  Consequently it always astonishes me to hear people say they were taught none.  Mind you, latin was compulsory at my school as well.

    103. thomas says:

      Some great points made by everyone.
      I am always amazed how talking of the “An Lia Fail “ invokes such strong response from many fellow Scots. What is essentially fairy tales , conspiracy theories and symbolism .
      It fires the blood of the emotional “Celt” and in my opinion just goes to show how this referendum , much to the dismay of the unionists , will be decided on emotion and the feeling of being a Scot ,  rather than the cold hearted  thoughts of currency ,  E.U membership and material possessions.

    104. Bill McLean says:

      Scottish Independence Referendum site will only allow me to click on to the “NO websites” – what is going on?

    105. @Taranaich 6 January, 2014 at 12:24 am

      creigs1707repeal: A new Indy site has popped up:

      Jings, I had no idea there were so many pro-Union sites! That said, it’s missing the Red Paper Collective (or do they not count?)

      I was unaware of the RPC. Have now added it. A strange group . . . it seems to me that voting NO because you don’t think the current proposals go far enough is akin to cutting off your nose to spite your face.

      Any other sites/groups anyone thinks I have missed out, or other ideas for the site, please contact me via the email on the site.

    106. @Bill McLean 6 January, 2014 at 9:31 am

      Scottish Independence Referendum site will only allow me to click on to the “NO websites” – what is going on?

      You are clicking on the top level menu heading. If there are sub-items in the menu the top level does not go anywhere. Click on one of the items in the drop-down menu.

    107. Ken500 says:

      It will be teething problems. It will get sorted out.

      ‘Project fear’ is illegal. It is illegal and undemocratic under ScottishUK/EU and International Law, to tell lies, manipulate Polls and use Government Agencies to try and scare the Population for political advantage. Any elected Political Representative behaving in that manner is not upholding their Oath and should be sanction and made to resign.

    108. Taranaich says:

      @Scots Renewables:  I was unaware of the RPC. Have now added it. A strange group . . . it seems to me that voting NO because you don’t think the current proposals go far enough is akin to cutting off your nose to spite your face.

      My thoughts too. The problem with their brand of Federalism is that in order to work, England would have to cease to exist, to be split up into multiple regions. Somehow I don’t see that going down very well!

    109. Bill McLean says:

      Scottish Renewables – thanks very much! Silly me!

    110. Ken500 says:

      It is illegal for Westminster to control and use the MSM to release lies and propaganda to deny democracy and ‘the sovereign right’ of another country, Scotland, under UK/EU/ International and UN Law and agreements.

    111. According to the Herald today there’s a new YouGov poll out that gives people a choice of three options.

      The poll puts support for independence at 30%, a point ahead of the status quo on 29%, with the most popular option being “more powers for the Scottish Parliament” at 32%.

      Wtf? Is Devo Max going back on the ballot paper?

      EDIT: Hootsmon article here:

    112. Angus says:

      I got a copy of the excellent ‘Claim of Scotland” by H J Paton down the Grassmarket yesterday-1968 copy excellent condition for £7.50!

      Also was on the replacement to Call Kaye called Morning Scotland (I think)at 10:00 and actually spoke on the show as a caller, the debate was on whether Alex Salmond and David Cameron should debate on television before the Referendum.
      Interesting stuff-I got in the absolute fact that the misinformed views, largely from people who were presumably no voters was the best of reasons to have this debate.

      I want to hear David Cameron explain the mechanism of removing my EU citizenship for instance, when we win the Yes campaign as I know there is no answer and he would like it to be uncertain the day before the vote and at all times leading up to it.

      Back on topic: the book is an absolute gem-well done to the lady who brought this to our attention.

    113. chalks says:

      Salmond knows where the original stone lies…..I’ve had that told to me by the man himself, as well as others.
      We only get it back when we get our respect back.

    114. Angus says:

      There is no doubt that the stone reclaimed from westminster by Ian hamilton QC is the same one that now resides in Edinburgh castle, albeit even more damaged.
      Whether Edward Longshank stole the original in the first place is another matter though it was stored at Edinburgh castle for three months before winging its way down to England a fact that makes on think the so called ‘hammer’ wasn’t that pleased with his booty.

    115. yerkitbreeks says:

      I was disappointed not to have had an answer from Yes Scotland to what it’s attitude to Lord Lieutenants etc would be in an independent country. It’s a somewhat shady power structure with the Monarch at it’s head. However the question should not be interpreted as my meaning I do not want a Queen of Scots.

    116. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Angus –
      Heard you this morning, thought you came across very well.

    117. Morag says:

      Salmond knows where the original stone lies…..I’ve had that told to me by the man himself, as well as others.
      Salmond also has a wicked sense of humour and does deadpan extremely well, so I’d be careful with this one.

    118. chalks says:

      Morag – He is Scottish then lol

    119. kalmar says:

      “If we turn to the ‘supporters’ of the Royal Arms, these are the lion of England and the unicorn of Scotland.”

      Re the logo?
      Unicorn please.

    120. Annibale says:

      I can remember being shown the Stone of Destiny in the mid-1980s. It was in a church at the foot of Cobden Street, Dundee. We were assured that this was the genuine article, although the church has since been demolished and I’ve no idea where the Stone went!

    121. James D says:

      Something the book misses in this chapter on the Royal Coat of Arms – not only is our Unicorn without a crown but it is chained too! Unchain our Unicorn and set us free!

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