Hostages of the bedroom tax
Newsnight Scotland presenter Gordon Brewer got a bit exasperated on last night’s edition of the show as he tried, repeatedly but unsuccessfully, to get Scottish Labour’s ever-smirking Jackie Baillie to give him anything resembling a straight answer to a question about Labour’s (lack of) policy on the bedroom tax.
As the well-fed welfare spokeswoman embarked on another pre-scripted soundbite of SNP-bashing rather than commit Labour councils to a policy of not evicting tenants for arrears related to the penalty charge, Brewer sighed (at around 12m 52s) that “I was vainly trying to take into consideration the people who might be affected by this” before giving up and moving on to his other guest.
Baillie was demanding that the Scottish Government instead bring forward legislation to make such evictions illegal – just a few days after Scottish Labour’s press office had strenuously denied to this very website that the party was making any such demands. But it’s easy to see why she’d be having trouble keeping track of her position, because to Labour the bedroom tax is little short of a delight.
Now, we don’t seek to cast aspersions on every individual member of the Labour Party when we say that. We’re sure there are some, even many, in the party who are genuinely outraged by the Westminster government’s despicable persecution of the vulnerable in order to fund tax cuts for the rich. But there can be not a scintilla of rational doubt that the Parliamentary party can scarcely contain its glee.
The bedroom tax is Labour policy – Gordon Brown introduced it for private-sector tenants back in 2008, and the only reason the coalition’s extension of it to social tenants is attracting so much more opprobrium is that the government is pursuing it with such a naked ideological hatred of the poor. Labour has even admitted that were it to be elected in 2015 it would NOT repeal the tax, merely tinker at its edges.
But nevertheless, that extension – and more particularly the monstrous savagery with which it’s being implemented – provides Labour with an opportunity to attack both the Tories at Westminster and the SNP at Holyrood while dishonestly pretending to offer an alternative, and that’s just about Labour’s favourite thing in the whole wide world.
Most of those opposed to the tax portray the subjects of it as “victims”, but that’s not really an accurate depiction. What they are is hostages. An excellent piece in this morning’s Herald by Anne Johnstone touches on that reality, noting how:
That fact is central to the coalition’s strategy. Essentially, councils and housing associations are being made to pay a ransom to Westminster to avoid serious harm being done to their poorest citizens. That ransom is paid in the form of a sacrifice of services – councils are left with little option other than to divert money from libraries, swimming pools and every other kind of municipal facility and provision to avoid the crippling results of either implementing or not implementing the bedroom tax.
Because it’s unquestionably a Catch 22. If councils and housing associations DON’T enforce the measures, they’ll be left with a huge cash shortfall in their housing benefit budgets. But if they DO, they’ll have to find money for the stratospheric costs of the eviction process and temporary accommodation for the displaced, because there simply aren’t anywhere near enough smaller properties for people to be moved into.
Most independent assessments – and indeed, basic arithmetic – agree that the bedroom tax will not and cannot “save” any money anywhere along the line, even if it were somehow to miraculously operate exactly in line with its supposed aims. Theoretically, social tenants will be moved from cheap housing into more expensive private-sector properties (since social landlords don’t build one-bedroom homes), swapping places with the over-crowded tenants currently living there who will then move into the social tenant’s now-vacated larger homes.
The net amount of housing benefit payable will obviously therefore remain exactly the same – because the same two properties will still be occupied by the same people, just the other way round – and there will have been a whole slew of extra costs involved in the bureaucracy of moving two families, likely involving appeals and delays, possibly having to evict one or both of them forcibly through the courts, and so on.
But the insanity of the bedroom tax itself has already been extensively covered elsewhere, so we needn’t go over it all again here. Let’s instead stick to our brief and examine how it’s playing in Scotland. Even poor old Alan Cochrane in the Telegraph could see through Labour’s charade:
For once we agree with the old Tory buffer’s analysis – Nicola Sturgeon was on majestic form in the Holyrood chamber exposing Baillie’s hypocrisy. But we need to look at the situation in a little more depth to understand what’s going on.
The only thing Baillie had which was even on nodding acquaintance with a point was when she observed that the SNP’s policy of having all its councils pledge not to evict anyone over bedroom tax arrears only covered council tenants, not those in housing associations. Yet the petition organised by the Govan Law Centre (a body run by Labour and “Better Together” activist Mike Dailly) calling for Scottish Government legislation to outlaw evictions conspicuously fails to feature any housing associations in the list of organisations supporting it.
This may be because housing associations are terrified at the prospect of thousands of tenants being able to default indefinitely on their rent (either out of malicious opportunism, or desperation at facing a choice between paying the rent or other bills) in the certain knowledge that they won’t be evicted, or of the costs of arrears/evictions forcing the associations to recoup their losses elsewhere – either by cutting services or increasing rents for other tenants who may be barely any better off.
Faced with that, other doubtless well-intentioned figures like Patrick Harvie of the Scottish Greens have called for the Scottish Government to simply find money from elsewhere in its budget to bridge the gap, citing the relatively small sums involved.
(Said to be somewhere in the area of £55m, though that covers only the amount of the tax itself and not the cost of bureaucracy required to process requests and payments.)
But such calls fail to understand the first rule of hostage-taking: paying ransoms creates more hostages. As suggested by Anne Johnstone’s Herald piece, the coalition will be thrilled beyond measure if the Scottish Government and local councils fund its vicious cuts for it. The outcome would in effect be a large subsidy of the UK Treasury by Scotland, leading to cuts elsewhere for which the Scottish Government and councils (none of which are Tory-controlled) would be blamed – a win/win scenario for David Cameron and George Osborne.
In such an eventuality, why would the UK government stop there? What else could it cut, secure in the knowledge that Holyrood (having set a precedent) would find itself besieged with demands to mitigate that too? The easy temptation for anyone with an ounce of human compassion is to say “Never mind all that politics, people are suffering now and must be helped no matter what”. But what’s the reality in Scotland?
As we’ve just said, no Scottish councils are Tory-controlled. While it’s highly likely that evictions for bedroom-tax arrears will actually happen south of the border, the first council to bring one about in Scotland would surely be committing a spectacular act of political suicide, never mind the financial self-harm it would also be inflicting on itself.
Numerous other options are possible and are already being explored to circumvent the tax, such as redesignating bedrooms. The UK government has no conceivable hope of policing such matters across hundreds of thousands of homes – or indeed the means to do so even if it wanted to, since any “inspections” to see how many “real” bedrooms homes had would fall under the remit of the councils who were doing the circumventing in the first place.
The bottom line is that ONLY councils and housing associations can effectively mitigate against the bedroom tax. Scottish Government legislation would be like trying to fix a crack in a pane of glass using a sledgehammer.
This state of affairs ought to be (quite literally) right up Scottish Labour’s street – as council level is the only place the party still wields political power in Scotland, and it constantly demands that more power be devolved from Holyrood to city chambers – but in the name of scoring points against the SNP it instead refuses to instruct its councils to take action.
(This is because Labour, on either side of the border, is paralysed by both cowardice and hypocrisy. In Scotland it thinks there’s political capital to be made from the bedroom tax at the expense of the SNP, while in England it’s terrified to be seen as “soft on welfare”, leading to a situation where Labour is loudly screaming its opposition to a tax it invented and plans to keep if it wins the next election, and demanding counter-productive action of others even while it refuses to take much more practical and effective steps itself.)
Mitigation, of course, is itself rather missing the point. Measures like refusing to evict tenants only act as a sticking plaster, buying time in the short term. The only solution to the problem is for Scotland not to be subject to the vicious ideology of the Tories at all, and there is but one way to ensure that.
Typo alert. “Ransom” has been rendered as “random”.
I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU MEAN.
Jackie Baillie’s smirking dishonesty on TV last night, and her ability to look so pleased with herself after the pasting she took from Nicola Sturgeon in Parliament, took my breath away. Combine that with her latest attampt to traduce the Scottish NHS over cancer care, she is a disgrace. How her and her party’s lies, distortions and evasions can hold any appeal for the electorate is beyond my comprehension. The lot of them are third-rate chancers, intellectual bankrupts and moral cowards.
It’s up against stiff competition, but Baillie’s permanent and gigantically unwarranted smirk is perhaps her least attractive feature as a human being.
…and that begs the question – which is her most attractive feature?
“…and that begs the question – which is her most attractive feature?”
The fact that she’ll die one day.
Getting rid of the lot of them is the only answer
These Wrangs That Must Be Richted
As summer turns tae autumn, an the nichts are drawing in
Wan chance ye’ll hae tae richt the wrangs, that Scottish haunds hae din
For thaim nae longer wi’ us, when the days wir dark and drear
They kept the caunle burning bricht, so oor wey wid be clear
Oan Scotias sile by Scottish haunds these wrangs must noo be richted
As ye climb upon the shooders o’ thae giants o’ Scottish men
When ye gang tae pit yer cross doon as ye staun an’ haud yer pen
Think o the’ pygmies we noo bear, thae couldnae lick the bits
O’ thae men o’ steel fae Clydeside or thaim fae Ayrshire pits
Oan Scotias sile by Scottish haunds these wrangs must noo be richted
Tae leave oor land a better place this is the debt we owe
An’ rid us o’ the cannydaes an’ thaim that jist say no
Nae man wha luvs his country could ever staun and say
Lets haun the poo’er tae ithers for that’s a better way
Oan Scotias sile by Scottish haunds these wrangs must noo be richted
The thocht o’ weiring ermine and a title tae their name
Must really be enticing that they’d gie awa their hame
So noo ye hiv been haunded oan, the caunle that wis lichted
Oan Scotias sile by oor Scottish haunds mak a’ these wrangs be richted
can anybody find out the number of Labour MPs who abstained rather than voted against this iniquitous attack on the vulnerable? Or those who gave it conditional support? Gordon Brown, I believe, said it should be “postponed”.
Let there be no doubt it is the vulnerable who are under attack here. These are the ones that cannot stand up for themselves and who will be unable to make a case for themselves. We already have had three such into our YES centre, one of them suicidal
I was going to suggest, the space she leaves when she leaves a room, but Stu is of a more robust turn of mind than I am.
“I was going to suggest, the space she leaves when she leaves a room, but Stu is of a more robust turn of mind than I am.”
I’m reminded of a phrase in reference to personality, whose source I cannot recall, which runs “When she leaves a room it’s like someone came in.”
para 5 ” . . government is pursing it with such a naked . .”
Pursuing?
“para 5 ” . . government is pursing it with such a naked . .”
Pursuing?”
YOU CLEARLY READ IT WRONG.
Wait for it…..
Wait for it…..
I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU MEAN!
Jackie Baillie is really the personification of all the is wrong with Scottish Labour. There are no deeply held principles here, or even a hint of political vision. As long as they can mindlessly attack the SNP, and to a lesser extent the Tories, they are happy. It really is the politics of despair and rage. They appear to have no policies, apart from their laughable opposition to whatever the SNP say.
Re Patricjk Harvie comments: Is there not separate budgets, capital and public spending. The Forth Road Bridge is a capital project is it not? It has already been cut substantially by the Coalition government, and I am not sure you can divert money between the two pots anyway? Also, when is Harvie going to accept that his parties’ opposition to road building/maintenance is not popular?
If there was a charge of contempt of Parliament it should be brought immediately against the despicable Baillie. Not only once has she deliberately lied through her teeth, in fact it is a strange day indeed if she talks the truth with facts that back it up.
Labour have surely reached their lowest point ever under the stupidly cynical Lamont’s leadership and thos genuine articles who populate labour’s benches must at times be absolutely mortified and repulsed by the antics they’re associated with.
If Margo McDonald is right that more than half of the Labour people in Holyrood will vote YES – it just doesn’t stack up that they are letting this trash keep going.
What price will Hills give for a coup any time before the 18 September 2014?
when you mention hostage i think of this
link to independent.co.uk
It does seem blatantly obvious (hence why Baillie missed it) but Evictions are not a naturally occuring phenomena……somebody somewhere has to take the conscious decision to evict.
Thus if a Council decides to have a policy of non eviction for the Bedroom Tax…..then you get No evictions.
All without the need for legislation and the inevitable challenges before it became Law.
Ah the luxurious position belonging to a political party without depth,direction and policies.
Makes me wonder why they bother as they shamelessly prostitute themselves for a salary they don’t deserve.
I for one have begun to sense impatience and at times embarrassment emerging from small pockets of the MSM in reference to ‘Scottish’ Labour.
Long may the rot continue.
Yiddish saying, “When a nebbish leaves the room, you feel like someone came in”
What, No FMQs on the BBC website? You mean I have to do without my weekly fix of watching the fragrant Ms Lamont, and the foot-in-mooth tory, and make do with the wireless instead.
Still, Democracy Live is showing The Baillie car crash from yesterday
Would NUJ /BBC journalists dare to prevent coverage of Prime Minister’s questions at House of Commons as TV coverage of FMQs is blacked out to-day.
“Would NUJ /BBC journalists dare to prevent coverage of Prime Minister’s questions at House of Commons as TV coverage of FMQs is blacked out to-day.”
It’s not on Democracy Live, but it’s on BBC Parliament. Caught me out too.
bloody hell, sounds as though she knows the cameras are off
what on earth must that ranting harridan look like?
Colin Dunn says:
28 March, 2013 at 11:33 am
para 5 ” . . government is pursing it with such a naked . .”
No more words like “naked” in Jackie Baillie articles please. Some of us are trying to eat here.
I thought what Nicola Sturgeon said yesterday was compelling – that if Labour really cared about the people affected by the Bedroom Tax, they’d be standing shoulder to shoulder with the SNP against the Tories and Lib Dems on this one. The very fact that they aren’t illustrates their true motives and where their priority lies – in the Party, not the people.
What a sad day for the Labour Party.
“Let there be no doubt it is the vulnerable who are under attack here.”
Exactly. And it’s no longer just that these people are vulnerable. These are people who are vulnerable and have been under constant attack for years now from both Labour and the Tories.
The people who will be hit by this – by the stress, the increasing debt, the evictions – are people who are sick, disabled, vulnerable and at really tough, horrible times in their lives. And they will already have been, and still be, struggling with ATOS, the DWP, council debt collecting departments and sheriff officers, energy companies who have put in metres that rack up standing charges of £1 a day even when they’re off because they haven’t been fed. These will be people literally on the edge, and already being subjected to massive and unnecessary stress. And this by a state that is supposed to provide a safety net; a safety net many will have paid into all their lives imagining they were paying some kind of National “insurance”.
For those in that kind of situation, the idea their council will help them will be the sickest joke, as they will likely have been doggedly pursued for council tax arrears, and councils can often be as uncaring, bureaucratic and nightmarish as the DWP. Many people in poverty don’t trust them.
And make no mistake, this isn’t “others” either. This is all of us. We all pay into this system of “national insurance” and tax, which amounts to a hefty chunk of our salary. The situation now is that if you become very ill, or a partner or child becomes very ill and you have to give up work unless you’re very wealthy or have fantastic private insurances, you’re likely screwed. And there is no effective safety net any longer.
After yesterdays showing is there really any doubt left in the electorate’s minds about parliamentary Labour north or south of the border? It couldn’t be clearer from the SG, they’ll abolish the bloody abomination altogether when independent, but can only mitigate as best possible at council level due to savage handout cuts on a national level. Perhaps if the hypocrites in Westminster spent more time actually voting than abstaining they could earn some of that respect they feel entitled to.
I won’t hold my breath.
Barontorc says:
“Labour have surely reached their lowest point ever under the stupidly cynical Lamont’s leadership and thos genuine articles who populate labour’s benches must at times be absolutely mortified and repulsed by the antics they’re associated with“.
I don’t doubt it my friend, but they, and the local branches don’t have the balls to do anything about it. And there’s the rub, no accountability and their own self-interest results in half-witted (I’m being generous) leadership spouting all sorts of garbish the likes of John Smith would have thrown them out the party for. But that’s what ‘new’ labour produced; no policy, just soundbites of false accusations, denials and abstentions.
Political eunuchs, the lot of them.
@Cath
Well said, Cath. There’s an old phrase best not forgotten – “There, but for the grace of god, go I”. It could happen to any of us.
And to add to that, the idea all benefits will now be on line is similarly a joke. There seem to be far too many politicians, over-paid media tits and general people out there who believe that everyone on benefits has flat screen TV and laptops. They don’t. Many, many of them never even have electricity, for the reason I just mentioned. Companies put in pre-payment metres with daily standing charges that go into arrears even when not used. So when someone has a spare fiver to chuck in, it’s gone on the debt so they still have no power. Far from having TVs and lap-tops, there are many people – often very ill people – sitting in the dark and cold with no way of cooking. The idea they must now go online to claim benefits is so out of touch it beggars belief.
My own plan, if I ever became ruler of the world, would be that all MPs have to spend 6 months living on benefits in a council estate before they are allowed to enter the house of Commons. Anyone not willing to do that doesn’t get the job.
Maybe in future you could just shorten “Jackie Baillie” to “Jaba”
link to usdl.info
As our American cousins would say ‘Baillie got her ass handed to her when she took her shit to Holyrood’. Such was the size and the manner of the whopping meted out to Baillie it truly was a sight to behold as Nicola Sturgeon, in majestic form, tore her and her hypocrisy to shreds. And the joke, the real sick joke is Lamont and her pathetic excuse of a party who purport to be socialists. The biggest fraud commited on the Scottish people is Labour and their pretence at caring for the sick and vulnerable, whaurs the Wendy one when you need a good soundbite! Some Socialists eh. More like parasites feeding off us. It will be a pleasure to see Baillie, Lamont and co kicked out come hopefully a YES vote.
Now for a real Socialist it was a pleasure to watch the short video of Willie Black rip IDS a new one @ the George Hotel in Edinburgh. At last someone shooting from the hip as IDS didnt even have the courage of his convictions to fight for his principles as he lamely stood by with microphone to boot. A coward, a weasel and yes a rat bag. Read it and weep Labour.
Great stuff Rev Stu. By continue to sit through Baillie’s performance the Labour MSPs condemn themselves as ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s to social democracy. They should have walked out on her. What stopped them? Their salaries? Their political principles? Labour a Socialist party? Pah!
The SNP must hold its position, that action lies with individual councils for the reasons you so clearly express. We’ll soon learn whether Scottish Labour run councils are of a socialist leaning.
@EdinScot-
My dog has laid cables with more ‘socialist’ credentials than this shower.
BTW, anyone know what those wee stick-men lapel buttons mean? Most of the SNP members seemed to be wearing them today.
Who was it who said “a shiver ran along the labour front bench looking for a spine to run up” and what was it in connection with – really annoying that I can’t remember
“Who was it who said “a shiver ran along the labour front bench looking for a spine to run up” and what was it in connection with – really annoying that I can’t remember”
Attributed here to Winnie Ewing, but I believe the phrase is older than that:
link to wp.iamone.co.uk
Excellent article, Stu.
This is surely Labour’s nadir (or is it?), and but a logical consequence of recruiting vacuous, unprincipled, interchangeable careerists to function as the leadership of your party over the last twenty years. This recruitment policy – aimed largely at Jim Murphy NUS types who have never and will never have a real job – has allowed Labour to be ‘flexible’ and ‘responsive’, canonical terms in the New Labour lexicon. What these terms of course mean is that if you joined Labour you never had to believe in anything per se (only if expedient), you never had to oppose anything per se (only if expedient), and you could morph on a weekly, daily, hourly basis from one ‘principle’ to another without the slightest embarrassment. All on the basis that it would get you into power in Westminster.
Truly, they are reaping what they have sown. They are an utter disgrace.
Jackson Carlaw speaking to an almost empty chamber….about arses. No, not Johann Lamont and Jackie Baillie, not even Ruth Davidson…..nor even Gordon Brewer……he’s talking about bowel cancer. He’s trying to persuade men to take the screening test by pointing out to them that if they’re 50, it’s no good looking for younger women as they’ll only be interested in you if you’ve got money, and if you’re Scottish you won’t……so you might as well just look after yourself ….and take the test.
I’m inclined to agree with him.
Now somebody else is on talking about blood and bottoms and poo. Sounds like a normal day at the Parliament.
In regards to Jackie Bailie, I was thinking about her out and out lies. There was the claim about the superbugs in the NHS (forgotten their proper name). Then there was the 19,000 or 18,000 Trident jobs losses. Now we have the attempt to pretend that the Labour Party in Scotland are against the bedroom tax.
In regards to the end of your article Stu, Mark McDonald MSP tweeted this excellent point, which pretty much sums up how frustrating it must be to be a parliamentarian that can do little but stand and watch as another parliament imposes bad decisions on your country:
“I didn’t come into politics to spend my time mitigating bad Westminster decisions. That’s why I’ll vote Yes in 2014 to shape our own future”
It depresses me that after independence I’ll still have to share a country with her and her ilk, never mind a room. I see we’re going to have them around lying for years after too. Do other countries have these self-hating liars and hypocrites?
On a serious note, though, if you haven’t done it already, guys and gals,….take the test. As the ad says, look after yer back close.
Sorry Rev Stu, this ill becomes any of us
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
28 March, 2013 at 11:30 am
“…and that begs the question – which is her most attractive feature?”
The fact that she’ll die one day.
Was it O K for meg curran to wish for a bus to run A S over, I think not
“Was it O K for meg curran to wish for a bus to run A S over, I think not”
I didn’t wish for anyone to be killed.
muttley
The FM reminded the fragrant Jackie about this lie and wondered when she would apologise for it Jackie sat and smiled They lie so often I am sure they are now unaware that they are doing it
@mato21
Which one? The superbug one?
ianbrotherhood says
…and that begs the question – which is her most attractive feature?
When the following graphic was compiled for the last election campaign, I would have laid good money on her being the first of the four to go. Got to admit she has staying power at least.
link to docs.google.com
VELOFELLOW @ 12.29 has voiced what I think should be said every time Labour in Scotland , or the rest of the No’s are mentioned. Every time the subject of their allegiance comes up, they should be labelled Quislings, because that is what they are.
Lets stop being nice to them, they do not return the favour. Every time an SNP representative is on the box, they seem to pull their punches for fear of hurting somebodies feelings.
Lets try and tar them with a brush that everyone understands, and make them ashamed to put an X in the no box next year.
I wrote this piece for BellaC last year – I wonder, what would Baillie and her ‘socialist’ buddies suggest we do with the main character?
link to bellacaledonia.org.uk
muttley
Yes and quoted that the figures she had given were from when labour were in power (?2006)
He also said ( along the lines of) she couldn’t expect anything she said to be taken seriously untill she did
Elephants never forget they say
So, why do the Scots go on voting Labour, do they think that Labour is still the working mans party. Do they think because their parents voted for them , then it must be the right thing to do, or do they think that voting Labour just keeps the Tories out. No one really knows why some voters blindly put their cross in a Labour box. Scotland’s Labour outpost has received instructions from London to try to mislead the Scots, i.e Labour in Scotland pretend to be against welfare cuts and all the time they are supporting Tory policies South of the border.Nothing can be more blatantly obvious than the more recent support of the Tory Bedroom tax where they try to mislead the Scots by pretending to be against it, but saying they will keep the tax if they ever gain power again. Astonishing how anyone in Scotland can fall for these tactics…..So we get back to the question…..what are they thinking when they blindly put their cross in a Labour box, are they thinking at all?……….. or are the staunch Labour voters just “The Non Thinkers”
Rob, I did hear a story from someone who was doing polling agent duties during the devolution referendum, about a wee wummin coming up to him and asking “Son, can you tell me which one of these is the Labour man?”
ianbrotherhood says:
28 March, 2013 at 12:43 pm
@EdinScot-
My dog has laid cables with more ‘socialist’ credentials than this shower.
Agreed but lets face it, we’re dealing with the red tories here, any rumour that Labour are a socialist party is sheer fantasy and delusion just like Bailies big whoppers. I think though that this bedroom tax is going to be Labours’ and the Unionists achilles heel, a real defining point this side of the referendum.
Jeannie says:
28 March, 2013 at 12:55 pm
Jackson Carlaw speaking to an almost empty chamber….about arses. No, not Johann Lamont and Jackie Baillie, not even Ruth Davidson…..nor even Gordon Brewer
Now somebody else is on talking about blood and bottoms and poo. Sounds like a normal day at the Parliament.
LOL Jeannie seriously ROFL. With this bombardment of misinformation and attempts by the Unionist msm to subvert our democracy, its important to retain our humour. Not easy but an essential for our own sanity.
Rev
Who was it who said “a shiver ran along the labour front bench looking for a spine to run up” and what was it in connection with – really annoying that I can’t remember”
Try Oliver Brown. Wit and Wisdom and its really annoying that I can’t put my hands on it as there are several gems that should see the light of day.
Ken, I strongly disagree. The last thing we need is more ammunition for the BT mob to run around castigating everyone who supports independence as foul-mouthed cybernats. The word “("Quizmaster" - Ed)” is one many people find extremely offensive.
No matter if you think this offence is justified, others will paint you as a narrow-minded zealot vilifying people who genuinely believe they are acting for the good of their country. We don’t need this grief.
@Annie 12.43.
That quote came from the late great nationalist Oliver Brown back in the ’60s.
He published a book of his quotations at the time called ‘The Book of Witdom’.
It was full of one liners and extremely witty.
(If you never met him and don’t know of him I suggest that some research be done)
The correct quotation is: ”A shiver ran round the Labour back benches looking for a spine to run up”.
Baillie’s smirk has been annoying me more than usual because it was reminding me of something I couldn’t pinpoint. Just came to me, and here it is:
link to p.playserver1.com
Aye, a pin-point would be handy right enough…
One of the best pulled together articles on this that I’ve read.
I’ve got a lot of time for the Greens but why should we subsidise the Westminster Government for introducing this stinking piece of legislation?
You’ve got it absolutely right by highlighting that the Scottish Government would be held to ransom for other bits of foul Westminster legislation and if we financially subsidise them now then we have to financially subsidise them every time they bring forward their rank proposals and laws.
The Labour Party is reeking of hypocrisy over this and if they had any standards left they would be instructing their Councils not to evict. They wont though as they would rather try and score cheap political points rather than help the most desperate and needy in our communities.
Better Together my arse (apologies Jeannie!)
I remember the video of JaBa at a constituency meeting where she was getting her arse handed to her on a plate (well a giant banquet platter) by a few of her constituents. She was intermittently talking, joking and smiling with the guy she was sitting beside while her constituents were making very good/valid points. This woman doesn’t even pretend to pretend to care. Arrogant, rude coo.
It was Oliver Brown who said ‘a shiver ran round the labour benches looking for a spine to run up’ after the Hamilton by-election that Winnie Ewing won
And
Rent arrears, a little less heat and a bit more light on evictions
For council housing in year 2011-2012 52,285 notices of proceedings for recovery of possession were issued, of which 51,886 were for rent arrears. Every landlord will have different… ways of doing this, but NoP are only issued once every other method has been tried – nagging, persuasion, welfare advice, agreements to pay a little each week. And where people are not engaging, have repeatedly broken agreements and are not trying to pay then the only option is to raise an action. Otherwise it is not fair on those people who do pay.
Of the rent arrears notices issues 9,554 went to court (so in 4 fifths of cases the NoP worked and people started to pay the rent, just like everybody else). Of these 3,328 resulted in the court granting a decree to evict. There is no way of telling what proportion h of the 6,000 actions that did not result in degree did so because people finally engaged at that stage – but I suspect it is most of them.
568 council tenants (1.09% of the Notices of Proceedings served for arrears) were evicted and 447 abandoned their house and disappeared. http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Housing-Regeneration/HSfS/Evictions Figures for housing associations will be in the same ballpark – 1%. link to heraldscotland.com
“Ken, I strongly disagree. The last thing we need is more ammunition for the BT mob to run around castigating everyone who supports independence as foul-mouthed cybernats. The word “("Quizmaster" - Ed)” is one many people find extremely offensive.”
I’m with Morag here. The Q-word is one that just can’t be used – however valid one might consider the analogy to broadly be in terms of referring to one who works against the interests of their own country – without making the user sound like a swivel-eyed loony, in much the same way that you can’t call someone a “fascist” without coming across like Wolfie Smith. Neither that nor the word “("Tractor" - Ed)” do our cause any service.
I have become really disappointed with Patrick Harvie. The Green party should have done considerably better than they did in the 2011 elections. Harvie was the cause, by effectively binding himself with the discredited Labour Party. At one point I thought he was going to join them.
Now, instead of recognising Labour’s blatant politicing of the Bedroom Tax, he appears to support their stance of funding circa £50m out of public funds, when there is no need, as councils have the power not to evict. This stinks of hypocracy as he is one who bangs on about more power for local authorities. As a consequence (unintended) he gives creedance to the Coalition Govt. and undermines the need for The Scottish Parliament to have control over welfare.
All I hear from Harvie on tv is the poor quality of debate on Independence. He argues that there has not been enough detail released by the YES campaign. I find this incredible. The Green Party have MSP’s in Parliamemnt. They support Scottish Independence. They are members of the YES campaign. If he feels that way surely it is incumbent upon The Green Party to release a paper detailing their plans for Governing/part of a coalition in an Independent Scotland. State the taxes they would propose to raise in order to finance a fairer Scotland. A 30% income tax rate?. A wealth tax ? A financial transaction tax ? Revamp land tax to raise extra finance? How much would they propose to raise? How would they invest/spend such funds?
Feel fuckin free Patrick!!!
Interestingly with the wireless re-directed to 5Live we were treated to a Q&A on the bedroom tax, welfare cuts, and the impact on the ordinary people of the country. It wasn’t a political debate at all, but you could hear the angst across the country, the worry of what lies in store.
And you wonder where those same people are going to vote next or you would if the truth was allowed out. It was a broadcast from south of the border. We are fortunate that we have the chance to chanqe our society, others may have nowhere to go.
@Edin Scot
Thanks for that. Glad it made you smile. I don’t often find myself paying any attention to Jackson Carlaw, but I figure that when it comes to arses, Jackson knows what he’s talking about – he’s been a Scottish Tory that long he must be a world authority on the subject.
Is the Labour Party the most hypocritical, dishonest political party in Scotland?
is Jackie Baillie the most hypocritical, dishonest politician in the Labour Party?
Do they think we all came up the Clyde on a bike?
Will they ever, for once in their miserable lives, back the SG in actually standing up for the people who elected them?
Email your opinions on the above to jackie.baillie.msp@scottish.parliament.uk
Re Quislings.
I had switched off, but thought I had better define what I thought.
I should have said, qualified it, not the Yes campaign, nor the SNP, or anyone in a high profile position.
But I think us footsoldiers should use the term. Because it is an apt simile.
When the anti’s can use the likes of Hitler etc and nobody says boo, I think it is justified.
These people KNOW that they live in a nation which is under another’s rule, control, jurisdiction, and are happy to make it happen. So I think the epithet is justified. And I know it’s inflammatory. But at some time you have to stop retreating and fight back.
And 16 weeks out is not the time. Now is.
J Baillie can stand up in parliament and tell a pack of lies, and when it is pointed out, she sits there with a large smile on her face, and it is not noted by the unionist press, or BBC. Is the move today, of FM’s questions to the parliament channel a permanent move. Was it announced. Will it be a move to further bury debate.
My wife, who is heartily sick of me rabbiting on, wondered this morning if we could fund ourselves. If she can think that, how many others. Some might say, I have’nt brainwashed her enough.
What Jackie Baillie lacks in intelligence she more than makes up for in sheer stupidity and is a peacock in everything but beauty.
Oh dear, reading the comments about Ms Baillie has planted the moniker ‘Jaba the Shed’ in my mind, and I’m struggling to remove it.
Thanks Jimbo but already sent her an email yesterday. I hear a lot of talk about holding them to account so Jimbo has supplied the way, lets do it.
Jeannie, Between him (Carlaw) and Ruth in the past day or so , theyve opened their mouths and let their arses rumble on and on without saying anything of substance. The reason they drone on and on is to pretend they have something to offer but its a con trick…and get this we’re meant to buy it. We’re talking about the Tories here who decimated our country and we are where we are because of them and the voluntary impotence of the Labour party allowing them to wreak havoc on us. With this Tory party so despised here, it amazes me that they have never decided to cut their losses and get the hell out of Scotland but then i think …ah of course…we’re their cash cow. Tories and money, its their God, you see.
Im still pinching myself at getting the actual chance to get rid of the lot of them next year just by putting an X next to YES. Simples!
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
28 March, 2013 at 1:11 pm
“Who was it who said “a shiver ran along the labour front bench looking for a spine to run up” and what was it in connection with – really annoying that I can’t remember”
Attributed here to Winnie Ewing, but I believe the phrase is older than that:
link to wp.iamone.co.uk
Sorry if you already have the answer, but I believe it was Dr Robert MacIntyre
Re my previous remark, no you didn’t, but I think we’re better than that
On Ruthie’s comments of the other day, I’ve posted an extract from Hansard that makes a mockery of what she said. see dmw42 on Betting on air.
No, Ms. Baillie is not unintelligent, she is working to a well thought out schedule, and I think there might be a overall plan, among the 3 other parties and the UK government.
Every little bit of denigration, accusations of cover-ups, being unable to run departments, name calling, each party now coming out with “plans” for more powers. All thought out.
Ken, you must know the glee with which the BT mob jump on anything they can use to smear the “cybernats” a swivel-eyed loons. It is absolutely imperative that we maintain a higher standard of discourse than the unitrolls, because we are going to be held accountable for what we say, and they aren’t. It’s that simple.
Adopting a policy of name-calling never solved anything.
REV O/T but I sent in an article yesterday using the contact link. when I posted it, I was sent to another site —did you get the article ?
What was the article?
Back to Jaba on Newsnight … yes, she was a disgrace and yes, Brewer did his usual rude, self-important schtick – but why, oh why must the SNP insist on putting up useless straw men to be blown away by all this. It’s alright us bemoaning the bullies – but it takes two to be bullied. Kevin Stewart, who looked like he was about to slide off his chair, gulped like a goldfish and had to read off a feckin’ script to make his points!
This is simply not good enough. The Labour/BBC axis is now getting so cocky it is leaving the goal wide open and laughing as the Nats field players who would have difficulty hitting the corner flag.
Come on – the SNP has way more strength in depth than Labour at Holyrood. Why does it always look like it’s the other way round?
Morag
You are correct. It’s not a level playing field. Lowering ourselves to their standard is what they want us to do. We’ll get slaughtered as as fowl mouthed, and by association the Independence movement, by the MSM, whilst they get away with it. Don’t forget we taking on the British establishment.
It’s far more effective to be professional and positive. I’m convinced we are starting to win. They are in panic mode-hence Ruth Davidson’s speech. They know they can’t win by scaremongering. More people are recognising the biased MSM’s role and are becoming seriously angry with them.
“As we’ve just said, no Scottish councils are Tory-controlled. While it’s highly likely that evictions for bedroom-tax arrears will actually happen south of the border, the first council to bring one about in Scotland would surely be committing a spectacular act of political suicide, never mind the financial self-harm it would also be inflicting on itself.”
South Ayrshire is a Tory/labour coalition with a slight tory majority but as Labour do as they are told it is to all intent and purpose a full Tory majority.
No way here that the Tories will refuse to evict when the time comes.
And local Labour will win a Guiness book record in squirming
( in fact, now that i come to think of it – Squirming should be introduced as a team competition at next year’s Commonwealth games; Labour could represent scotland and be odds on to win)
I can fully understand the frustration people feel about Jackie Bailllie and other labour people and the temptation to call them ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s, ("Tractor" - Ed)s etc, but their is no need as they are doing the ‘No’ campaign more harm than good with the tactics they are using.
Just yesterday I was reading the ‘Lib Dems for Indy’ face book page and one contributor mentioned that they had been ‘undecided’ but had started looking at the issues a couple of months ago and she was now a confirmed ‘Yes’ She mentioned she had then converted a friend to ‘Yes’ and was in conversation with two others who she was directing to ‘Wings’ and ‘Newsnet’ etc.
Slowly but surely we are winning this, the people of Scotland are not stupid, they are seeeing through the rank hypocricy and lies of people like Jackie Baillie and when they do find the truth they are speaking to their friends about it.
As Napoleon once remarked, “Do not disturb your enemy when he is making a mistake” so let them get on with it !
Calling people names is never justified and also counter-productive. I know this because being called “cyber-nat” and various other choice terms of abuse for simply arguing a case politely and rationally has only made me far more certain of my ground.
Fact is, anyone who is looking can see what people like Baillie, Labour more widely, and the biased journalists are doing – talking down Scotland, lying, smearing a decent government, trying to make sure we never have the sovereignty and self-determination every other country takes for granted as normal. People will make their own judgements on that.
Many others who are on the no side will be there either through emotional attachment to the UK, or through perfectly well informed and thought out reasoning that it’s best for Scotland, or through being ill informed and believing Scotland can’t stand alone. None of them deserve anything other than respectful debate. The fact the leaders of the NO side are denying such respectful debate to any of us and being so abusive to those on the YES side really isn’t their fault.
REV, sorry had to nip out, the article was from a communist party booklet entitled A NATION ONCE AGAIN, and the article from it was labour sectarianism
Patrick Roden
Spot on Patrick.
Wholly agree with Ronald Alexander McDonald, above. The unionists are in panic mode, and have been pretty much since the first SNP Government was elected in 2007.
First we got the Calman nonsense, which must go down in world history as truly the most pointless exercise ever undertaken in the name of ‘constitutional reform’. Then we got the willful obfuscation over the right of the majority democratically elected Government of Scotland to hold a referendum. Then we had months of utter nonsense about what the question should be, and so on. This is what the unionist cabal in Holyrood have done since 2007.
At every single step, they have done their utmost to undermine and defeat the will of the people of Scotland, by denying the opportunity for a referendum to end London colonial rule of Scotland.
Now that the Scottish Government have taken them on via the ballot box, and defeated their nonsense, they cannot come up with ONE single good coherent argument for Scotland to be run by a parliament in another country. Not one. Instead all we get is negativity, and more of the ‘too wee, too poor, too stupid’ mantra’, which the Labour party in Scotland seems to live and die by.
Even this week, as industry announces even more investment in Scottish oil and gas, none other than Brian Wilson of the Labour party writes in a national paper, the same tired old nonsense about there not really being much oil. Maybe Brian and his Labour party ‘oil deniers’. need to catch up by for example, reading what BP have said today http://www.bp.com/genericarticle.do?categoryId=2012968&contentId=7085428.
But hey what do I know, maybe the companies investing in Scottish oil and gas are dumb, and Labour is right- there really is no oil!!
The reality right now, with more than a year to run, is that the Bitter together campaign are failing to make any progress, and they will know, that come 2014, the stooshie over Westminster begins. Bitter together will likely fall apart, as the red tories and blue tories fight it out.
Either way, we know we have the facts and the truth on our side. We know there is a compelling forward looking vision for a better Scotland with independence. We do not need to stoop to the gutter inhabited by the likes of Jackie Baillie and her assembled Labour illiterati in Holyrood. The unionistas know they have been dealt the losing hand, and are feart.
Vote YES in 2014. Tell your friends.
I dislike the attacking of some-one’s personal features or characteristics. There are many in the independence movement who outweigh and are more unseemly than Ms Baillie.
Attack their (lack of) policies, their ineptitude and their political shortcomings by all means, but I think we should rise above the personal insults. It’s not the best way to debate an issue. It makes us look small minded and moronic. Please leave that kind of stupidity to those BritNats who like to indulge in it.
Damn.
The MP Eric Joyce will not face charges following his arrest over an alleged brawl in a House of Commons bar.
Scotland Yard said it would be taking no further action following the incident this month.
link to guardian.co.uk
Jimbo, well said. It’s tempting, and I laugh too, but it’s the equivalent of the unitrolls and their “rotund curry-lover” and “fat Eck” discourse. It only annoys us and repels us from their point of view. Which may not matter as far as we are concerned, but a genuine “don’t know” could be genuinely put off independence by reading some of the comments about MSPs’ personal appearance (and other attributes) that have become common currency here.
Another mauling for JaBa and Lament at FMQs on the Scottiah paliament website.
Go see…lol
Cath – “Many others who are on the no side will be there either through emotional attachment to the UK, or through perfectly well informed and thought out reasoning that it’s best for Scotland, or through being ill informed and believing Scotland can’t stand alone. None of them deserve anything other than respectful debate. The fact the leaders of the NO side are denying such respectful debate to any of us and being so abusive to those on the YES side really isn’t their fault.”
Indeed. While people like Baillie are wilfully lying to the public to defend their own careers and self-interests, your average No campaigner is merely a product of the misinformation spewed forth by the politicians and the other careerists like Blair McDougall, Gordon Aikman and Alan Laing, people who have vested interests in the continuation of the union. Not everyone who peddles BetterTogether’s propaganda realises that’s what it is – although I have no doubts that the professional propaganda merchants know exactly what they’re doing.
Let’s leave the scattergun approach to the No campaign. Concentrate our ire on those who warrant it, not those who simply don’t know any better.
Every time I see Jackie Baillie I cant stop thinking about this character.
link to urbandictionary.com
@ Rev Stu and Morag:
My description of Labour MSPs was Qs to social democracy, repeat social democracy and no more than that. I made absolutely no reference or implication to national loyalties. However if you prefer an alternative, and you consider a more appropriate word, go change the text, would be fine by me.
I admit surprise at your response Morag since I do enjoy your sometimes robust language.
R Louis
Yeah. What does the oil industry know about oil? Not very much, if you believe the Labour party and their mouth pieces. Obviously they have great expertise in the field of Oil Geology etc.
On a hugely positive note, it looks like the massive massive potential in the Atlantic is starting to break into the public domain, aka Newsnet Scotland’s recent article. Wonder why the unionists wanted a quick referendum?
It aint called black gold for nothin!
Besides its way more fun tearing down their house of cards with documented fact, honest appraisal or formulated opinion. Leaves them using the swerry wurds and name calling. 🙂
Having said that….. yes I have laughed at one or two of the more colourful and imaginative names and links put forward for a number of opposition candidates over the period. We’re only human after all. 😉
Anyone know what the view of the owner and the police would be if a person who has too many Bedrooms took a sledgehammer to the property and made the correct number of rooms?
Also, If I have one room too many and therefore recieve £16 a week less does my neighbour who has one room too few recieve and extra £16?
“Anyone know what the view of the owner and the police would be if a person who has too many Bedrooms took a sledgehammer to the property and made the correct number of rooms?”
One of the links in the piece is to an Independent article where Frank Field suggests exactly that. (Well, not tenants doing it themselves, but the council/HA doing it.)
Nobody EVER clicks on the links I go to so much trouble for… 🙁
@ John Lyons
I think they want everyone in the one big bedroom. THE WORKHOOSE
Ruth Davidson was a disgrace PMQs to-day.
Alex Salmond was too kind not to refer to the Better Together supporter who
referring to the 2014 indy poll he said: “I wish the vote was how many bullets do we get to fire into the SNP leaders.”
link to thesun.co.uk
A man is known by the company he keeps. WE should point out the UKIP, BNP and UDF supoport for the No campaign but having said that calling people names and making reference to their physical appearance doers not help to win over neutrals or soft NO voters.
On the subject of Baillie and her latest ‘Baillie/Bradford production’ aired by BBC Reporting Scotland last night – I had a quick peek at Eleanor Bradford’s Linkedin page. Apart from the usual meeja -hyperbole (I’m award winning etc etc) she makes another couple of points i find interesting. (ok, they made me laugh)
‘In 2006 I was a member of a Scottish Government working group to produce new guidelines on how to communicate risk to the public.’
– I would presume her guidance probably centred around ‘you’ll get treated well by BBC Scotland if you support Labour, otherwise you’re stuffed.’
‘My goals are to continue to provide the best possible coverage of Scottish health issues and to improve links between the BBC and those working in the health and medical science fields.’
– Improve links between the BBC and the Health fields ! I’ve never seen her once interview a working health practitioner – last night’s ‘health scare’ being a prime case in point.
You can read her bio here: http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/eleanor-bradford/21/854/342
Dundee Bloke/Rev Stu
It was Oliver Brown of ” A man of straw shows you what way the wind is blowing ” etc etc including such bon mots as “the Anglo Saxophone” for the BBC – never more apt than it is today
John, it seems to be a question of how many bedrooms the council records say the house has. Some Scottish councils have declared a willingness to re-classify houses as having fewer bedrooms if that is justified, but that will lead to the rent having to be reduced.
The lady in Liverpool who had the lift shaft put in the space that was her tiny extra bedroom has certainly had the walls knocked down – the space is now part of the landing area. However the council say they have a policy of never reclassifying houses like this, so she will be hit with the bedroom tax. Although the space is now a lift shaft the council itself paid £8,000 to have fitted for her.
So she may have to leave this specially-adapted property and go who knows where. Meanwhile, a family with a child will be allocated a house with one fewer bedrooms than they need, because there is a lift installed. Unless the council reclassify the house at that stage. Or spend a lot more money ripping out the lift and reinstating the little bedroom.
You simply couldn’t make this up.
Rev. Stuart Campbell s “Who was it who said “a shiver ran along the labour front bench looking for a spine to run up” and what was it in connection with – really annoying that I can’t remember”
Attributed here to Winnie Ewing, but I believe the phrase is older than that:
As ALD said it was Oliver Brown which succinctly summed up their lack of courage, however if I might suggest the paraphrase
“an electron ran along the Labour front bench looking for a neuron to fire on.”
might work tolerably well for describing their intellect.
Velofello, the criticisms were not of your post, which actually I didn’t notice, but of what Ken said later, which went a great deal further.
However, we all know that “("Quizmaster" - Ed)” is a word the BT people take great offence at, and they never fail to highlight its use by a Yes campaigner to show what nasty foul-mouthed cybernats we all are. We simply do not need this particular grief. We only allow them to move the debate away from the substance when we do that.
Dave McEwan Hill, Cheers for that piece of info Dave, I used to know some one of the same name in the Straven area
Although some people will vote in the referendum according to an “allegiance”, say to a political party, a football team, a sense of tradition or a shared experience, such as the war, for example, for most people I know, their first allegiance is to their family and friends and they just want them to be safe, healthy and have a good life. From that point of view, most of us in Scotland are actually on the same side. We just differ on our view of how to achieve that goal.
Whereas it’s true that some political types have a very definite vested interest in preserving the status quo and are trying to manage public opinion by the use of scare tactics, I do think people are getting fed up with them, which leaves the door open for us to show people that they can safely achieve the goal we are all aiming for – a better life for our families – by voting for independence.
The negative tactics and scaremongering of the No Campaign will close the door on voting No for a lot of people. We’ll then be pushing at an open one.
And, as far as making remarks is concerned, I’m as guilty as the next man, because some days, if you didn’t laugh you’d greet, but I agree…..let’s not go too far down that road.
Here’s something that really bothers me.
If Rev Stu, and others, can do such a good job of explaining the implications and consequences of SNP v SlaboraTory positions on the bedroom tax, why couldn’t Kevin Stewart do likewise on Newsnight Scotland?
I’m sick and tired of watching SNP representatives failing to clearly and confidently present a case that has already been strongly established, by Nicola Sturgeon, in the Scottish Parliament.
Following on from my earlier comment regarding oil and Brian Wilson of the British Labour party;
link to telegraph.co.uk
Yes, we do!
I would say, though, that I’d click them more readily if you had this place set up so that links (especially external ones) open in a new tab. I keep forgetting to put a finger on Ctrl when I click the link, and as a result find myself navigated away from WoS.
I don’t think i’ve ever been as disgusted with a politician, as i am with Baillie. Every time i see her or hear her, my blood pressure explodes.
To knowingly act against the very folk who vote her into office is despicable. Her hypocrisy is only matched by her lack of morals. Lack of.
I think she is one of the very few folk i actually wouldn’t piss on if she was on fire.
Thatt wee rant made me feel better, and i never even called her a Quisling or a ("Tractor" - Ed). 😉
Yes we do.
Dundee Bloke
Was it Oliver Brown the name of guy you knew in Straven. I had a pub in Straven for a couple of years -called it the 1820 but it was knocked down fairly recently.
Interesting place witn a huge amount of paranormal instances
Chic McGregor says:
I do not know his name, re the cold shiver, but he was a Schoolteacher at Queen’s Park Secondary.
I remember that because my Dad was the School Janny
Strathaven?
Home of phantom consonants (and a vowel).
MajorBloodnok
Exactly – just like Ruglen!
Have just listened to the Bedroom Tax Song. Just brilliant. Hope you all circulate it – songs are really powerful in cases of injustice.
@ Jeannie, nicely expressed as usual. My allegiance is to my conscience.
I remember after WW2 sitting in primary school and being handed out an apple from Canada, and once a pomegranate. i remember the excitement when sweeties came back to Mrs McCracken’s wee shop and we were given a book of coupons to enjoy two ounces of sweets per week. i’m absolutely stunned that we are in a situation now of food banks and bedroom tax debates.
I do not expect independence to financially benefit me one iota, I’m doing OK, but the sight of well paid Labour MSPs sitting in parliament whilst Ms Baillie played her political games, and if she succeeds in her strategy, acting against the interests of the poorest in Scottish society angers me hugely. I repeat, they should have walked out during her speech.
Me. I will continue to attend every demonstration and march I can. And at every opportunity that presents itself I will to their face use the Q word directly to Labour MSPs.
I’m with velofello.
They are what they are, and i too will say it to their faces.
And Enster (Anstruther)
@ronald alexander mcdonald
I have become really disappointed with Patrick Harvie. The Green party should have done considerably better than they did in the 2011 elections. Harvie was the cause, by effectively binding himself with the discredited Labour Party. At one point I thought he was going to join them.
Now, instead of recognising Labour’s blatant politicing of the Bedroom Tax, he appears to support their stance of funding circa £50m out of public funds, when there is no need, as councils have the power not to evict. This stinks of hypocracy as he is one who bangs on about more power for local authorities. As a consequence (unintended) he gives creedance to the Coalition Govt. and undermines the need for The Scottish Parliament to have control over welfare.
All I hear from Harvie on tv is the poor quality of debate on Independence. He argues that there has not been enough detail released by the YES campaign. I find this incredible. The Green Party have MSP’s in Parliamemnt. They support Scottish Independence. They are members of the YES campaign. If he feels that way surely it is incumbent upon The Green Party to release a paper detailing their plans for Governing/part of a coalition in an Independent Scotland. State the taxes they would propose to raise in order to finance a fairer Scotland. A 30% income tax rate?. A wealth tax ? A financial transaction tax ? Revamp land tax to raise extra finance? How much would they propose to raise? How would they invest/spend such funds?
This struck a chord with me about Patrick Harvie. Unfortunately it appears that he seems to want to position himself between the SNP and Scottish Labour. This would be fine in itself, but it looks like he thinks himself morally superior to both parties. I just get the impression that he is not committed to the independence cause. The SSP, Labour for Independence group, and Dennis Canavan have seemingly joined the Yes campaign without any real problems or issues. I don’t get that feeling at all from the Scottish Green Party. I think they may well be divided internally on independence. Either that or Harvie himself has reservations.
I fear in trying to find a word which means ‘someone who knowingly works towards having his country ruled by or subsumed into another’ which is acceptable, is doomed to fail. It isn’t the various words which are themselves unacceptable but the actual nature of the subjects so described.
Quisling, Traitor, Anti-Scottish, 5th-columnist, Unpatriotic, Judas, Benedict Arnold (Americanism), Sour Milk Jock, Uncle Tom, Betrayer etc. would all be unacceptable.
Even if we made up a new descriptor like ‘Cringemeister’ or ‘Scotiapath’ they would still in very short order be unacceptable and cause offence to those which they are directed, because it is the nature of the subject which is unacceptable.
We are therefore left with only two choices.
Either we never uses a word which describes them thus OR we pick one and use it even if they would rather we did not.
As some one else has pointed out this is shaping up to be a battle between the confident and the feart, between the sensible and the stupid.
Picked up this from a Peter Craigie online today
“After all, being bought with your own money requires a special kind of folly”
Worthy of Oliver Brown ( “The Church of Scotland has a moderator whereas it requires an accelerator”)
@Dave McEwan Hill
@Jeanie
Don’t forget Aidston where the Tunnock`s caramel wafers come from.
An insult is meant to cause offence, Chic.
I want to insult the likes of Baillie and Lamont.
@Chic McGregor
I have in the past been referred to as a “Porridge Wog” I will not go into detail regarding my response to that one.
This may be a very stupid idea, but why don’t councils/housing associations simply put padlocks on the extra rooms. This would bring instant flexibility to their housing stock. Obviously they’d have to redefine the size of the house in the rental agreement as well as adjusting the rent, which would probably mean an overall rent rise for everyone, but surely this would be hugely less than any other option.
I think the problem comes from having different definitions of the word “country”. To us, it means Scotland. To them, it doesn’t, as they see the UK as being all the one country. Therefore they don’t see that there’s any disloyalty on their part. At least that’s what I think they think. Maybe.
Chic McGregor says:
The French use(d) the epithet Collabo for their own Quisling’s during WWII
I rather like that.
Dave – At the risk of provoking our own moderator’s ire, you post reminded me of Tom Nairn’s old axim:
“Scotland will be free when the last minister is strangled by the last copy of the Sunday Post.”
I post-modern paraphrased that one as well with
“Scotland will be free when the last Labour Minister is strangled by the last copy of the BBC Charter.” (which I hasten to point out is a JOKE)
Not that I agree with Nairn re ministers, although I know what he was getting at.
For many years, the nearest thing we had to a parliament where we could here Scottish centered debate of any kind on’t telly was the annual CoS conference on the Mound.
Also my uni philosophy lecturer went on to become a moderator of the C o S and he was a good guy.
O/T, but i wish Labourhame would allow comments on their latest fairytale.
@Jeannie
I’ve lost count of the number of unionists who’ve told me that their country is the UK, but go on to say stuff like “we get more back than we put in” etc. I think they’re just confused and/or hard of understanding.
Jeannie says:
I think the problem comes from having different definitions of the word “country”. To us, it means Scotland. To them, it doesn’t, as they see the UK as being all the one country. Therefore they don’t see that there’s any disloyalty on their part. At least that’s what I think they think. Maybe.
Slight goalpost shift, but I expect they would be no more inured with descriptions like ‘Country Denialist’ or ‘North Briton’ or ‘Greater Englander’, get my drift?
So apparently it’s OK for the taxpayer to pay for the unemployed to have larger houses than they actually need?
How come the employed don’t qualify for a similar “spare room subsidy”?
And I don’t see the problem with being called a “porridge wog”. In my experience, a swift reply labelling the offender as a “Rupert” / “Taff” / “Mick” etc deals with it in the expected and time-honoured way, and establishes a positive relationship going forward.
“So apparently it’s OK for the taxpayer to pay for the unemployed to have larger houses than they actually need?
How come the employed don’t qualify for a similar “spare room subsidy”?”
A large percentage of people on Housing Benefit, and the overwhelming majority of new claimants, ARE in employment.
link to insidehousing.co.uk
I would be appalled that you were so crass and ignorant as to not know that before honking off about it, were it not for the fact that crass ignorance appears to be your sole stock-in-trade.
Haven’t heard ‘Rupert’ before is that for a Frenchman?
Eric Joyce willnot be prosecuted for his ‘alleged’ fraces in a wasteminster bar. Police lack sufficient credible evidence due to only witnesses being fifty labour MPs! 🙂
Huh. I posted that at quarter to four.
Just out of curiosity, see how the taxpayer pays for MPs to rent flats in London, are they restricted to one bedroom as well?
@ Juteman: The issue is not over personal insults to people, or determining acceptable or non-acceptable words, it is about assessing a person’s political behaviour and its effect on you and your society, and feeling inclined to express your view.
So if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck…
But just don’t rush to assessment, an ugly duckling may turn out to be a swan. regrettably not one of the Labour MSPs seemed all fluffy and brown sitting there as Ms Baillie spoke.It is to be hoped that some Labour MSPs read WOS. Me, I would be horrified to be called a Q to social democracy. Hopefully some of them will be too.
@Herman.
Only the ‘fringe’ countries have pet names.
Hermione said:
So apparently it’s OK for the taxpayer to pay for the unemployed to have larger houses than they actually need?
It was OK up to next Monday apparently.
The people being hit by this were allocated these houses by the council. They were given the tenancies and the keys were handed over, and they were encouraged to call them home. In many cases significant sums were spent to adapt the properties to accommodate disabilities.
Now the tables are being abruptly turned, and the same people are being demonised as some sort of illegitimate squatters and being hounded from their homes. No, I’m not OK with that.
Let the councils decide how to allocate their housing stock. If they see fit to allocate an extra bedroom to a single person or a family, it’s absolutely unconscionable for central government suddenly to turn round and say, you’re not entitled to that, we’re going to starve you out.
Never thought I’d hear myself say this (or write it), but ‘you’re either with us or against us’ (us being Scotland). Worked back when they had a war to sell. Selling self-determination should be a doddle.
@Hermione
“Rupert” “Taff” &”Mick” don’t quite cut it when you are on the frontline of a riot on the Falls Road!
Now run along dear.
@Chick McGregor
“Rupert” British army slang for an officer!
How come the employed don’t qualify for a similar “spare room subsidy”?
They do. Because Housing Benefit is given to those with a low income, not just the unemployed.
Who’d’ve thought it? A supporter of welfare cuts with no actual knowledge of the welfare system.
@TMITJ
The only Ruperts on the Falls, Crumlin and Sandy Row were the ones behind us shouting the orders.
@vellofello.
regrettably not one of the Labour MSPs seemed all fluffy and brown
Vellofello, gonnae no use expressions like “all fluffy and brown”. I’m still feeling sick after that bowel cancer screening debate in the Holyrood chamber this afternoon 🙂
Have followed the posts and agree with those who warn against using the Q word and the physical characteristics of opponents. Stick to the arguments and claim the upper ground.
Take example of absolutely vile cartoon in Scotsman today which shows AS in unfavourable light as usual and dismissing the Homecoming events as “tat”. The Scotsman will lose more readers, a few more may be added to the YES side. Keep it up Johnston Press!
I must admit I had thought that Hermione was a Labour Party member, a Party founded on the principles of helping workers, the poor and thedisadvantaged.
But it seems that she is fully signed up to
Punishing foster parents by removing money for using that bedroom for foster kids
Punishing parents of membersoff the armed forces for having their children serving overseas
Punishing the disabled for having a carer staying over
Punishing the disabled whose partner has to sleep in a separate bedroom
Punishing the poor for not being able to afford a vastly more expensive private rented accommodation because there is no single bedroom stock
Unfortunately these attitudes are consistent with the Labour Party of today, Tories by another name
O/T
Anyone red this nonsense.
link to telegraph.co.uk
If Scotland votes NO in 2014 then we don’t deserve a better future for ourselves.
@Boorach
Aye well behind us!
@TMITJ
Thanks for that. I’ve heard of Rupert the Bear (nationality indeterminate) and a Prince Rupert of somewhere or other.
So I guess Rupert is a classist thing then from what you are saying.
@ HerMoany
The problems we face re. the UK’s chronic housing shortage, are a gift to us from all the post-war Labour and Tory governments that have sat in Westminster. It has got naff all to do with the independence movement, Yes Scotland, the SNP, Holyrood or anything that you might stand against with respect to Scotland’s self-determination. Have you not been paying attention?
Most of the housing shortfall is in the south east of England anyway, so why not go and moan about that to someone more responsible, such as the PM David Cameron? Or possibly Gordon Brown, as this is a Labour policy you are moaning about.
Which brings me to the question, what is your point? Do you have one? And while I am at it, can you moan in a tonal scale?
Actually, now I come to think of it, I can think of no reason at all why the taxpayer should pay for more than one bedroom for an MP or MSP or fund a second home for them which has more than one bedroom. How do you find out if any of them has more accommodation than they need and if the taxpayer is having to pay for it? A freedom of information request? I’d just like to know. If we can’t fund an extra bedroom for a poor person, we shouldn’t be funding an extra bedroom for a well-off one. Anybody know what to do?
Let’s not get on our high horses about name-calling.
I posted an image of a Spacehopper because it reminded me of Jackie Baillie, or, I should say she reminded me of it. I didn’t call her ‘fat’ because stating the bleeding obvious is a waste of time.
She doesn’t deserve to be made fun of because she’s fat and DOES look like a Spacehopper – she deserves opprobrium from all right minded citizens of this country because she is a serial liar who puts her own perverted priorities ahead of showing basic respect for the weakest and most vulnerable in our society.
Jackie Baillie could look like Kate Moss for all I care – she’s still a repugnant human being and I’m not the only one who would jump at the chance to straddle her, grab her ears, and bounce her right across the living-room.
@ Chic McGregor
Affectionately (!) classist. Ruperts/Rodneys were the educated idiots foisted on us by Sandhurst etc.
Each to their own Ian, there’s no accounting for taste.
straddle and bounce across the room, have ye no shame man. 🙂
If the government is serious about saving money, use the ‘Olympic Village’ as overnight accomodation for MP’s who live too far from Westminster to travel home.
Set an example.
@ Jeannie
just think how much IDS could save the exchequer if they were all housed in bog standard furnished flats in a couple of tower blocks. Probably ave to build them in a gated community to keep the plebs from their doors though.
@Chick McGregor
Yes I think so.
Prince Rupert was in command of the Royalist cavalry during the often-misnamed “English” civil war. His incompetence did more to forward the parliamentarians cause than his own.
He had a habit of successfully charging the enemy and then disappearing (along with the rest of the cavalry) to go and sack some poor souls baggage train. This in preference to returning to the field and carry on fighting.
In the army many officers are referred to as “Ruperts” this also refers to their “Hooray Henry” attitude. If you think that the Tories are bad you should see this lot in full flight.
Having said that there are some very good officers in the Army the “Ruperts” tend to gravitate towards the cavalry regiments / Guards and the like.
@DMW42-
‘…have ye no shame man.’
None at all. I would do it in a heartbeat, and I’d even shout ‘suffer baby, suffer!’ as we traversed the carpet. No stranger to carpet-burns, moi…
Jeannie, I’d go further and take away their living allowance. Let’s see how the bar stewards would cope on food stamps.
@DMW42
LOL. That reminds me of an incident that happened a number of years ago in our Council, when one of the female officers had been set the impossible task of doing work for several bosses at the same time. God love her, but she stood up at a large meeting of headteachers and publicly complained that she was now required to straddle no less than 5 heads of service instead of just the one. She was met with a loud cheer!
When my father retired from a tied house, we were allocated a council house. Although I was 26, I was still living at home, as I was doing my PhD at Glasgow Uni. We were allocated a 2-bedroom semi. My parents (and I) were thrilled by the house. I remember when we were first shown it, although it was in a bad state (stripped walls, bare wood floors, no proper kitchen), I looked round and said, I believe we could be happy here.
My parents spent their own money on a better central heating system and decorating the whole place. We moved in, pet cat and all, and we loved the house. This was the first time my father had moved house in 40 years, and it was 30 years for my mother. They felt secure that this was now their home.
Two years later I finished my PhD work and got a job. In Hertfordshire. The job wasn’t terribly well paid and even a one-bed flat in a scruffy part of Hatfield cost a fortune, even then. The deposit took all my savings, and the mortgage started to take almost all my salary.
Well, my parents had sufficient income from their pensions that they were never on housing benefit. But in any case I didn’t have to watch my parents face eviction from their happy home for the crime of having their grown-up daughter move out, or run into arrears myself trying to make up the shortfall. (In fact my by-then-widowed mother was still living there 25 years later when I got a job back in Scotland and I moved right back in for a time.)
But I’ve been close enough to it all to be horrified by this. There aren’t enough one-bedroom properties to move every couple when their children fly the nest. That housing stock was built to be a decent living environment, not as minimal digs for the destitute. What the hell is wrong with having an extra room, for goodness sake? If there aren’t enough council houses to go round, and some larger ones are needed, I can think of a much better solution. And it would stimulate the economy.
One more step in the demonising of people in less well off circumstances as some sort of underclass, to be grudgingly permitted the absolute bare minimum by a judgemental state. While funding MPs to have second homes and the Queen to have Buckingham Palace.
This makes me sick.
Ah Jeannie, you take me back, I had a teacher with a lisp who kept telling me to shit in my sheet.
Jeannie says:
“she was now required to straddle no less than 5 heads of service instead of just the one. She was met with a loud cheer!”
Sports and Recreation her specialty?
@DMW42
Shurely she made shum mishtake
Regarding the use of potentially non-pc descriptive terms; well fair enough.
However, if you take several of the defintions, as follows; “One who betrays a cause, or a trust” then I believe that the majority of the Labour Party fall within these terms.
It’s easy to describe how.
They have let down, hugely, ordinary people, their constituents. I’ve always understood that the Labour Party were there to look out for people, to promote ethical approaches to employment, to be a sense check against the excesses of right wing politics, to ensure that the pillars of the welfare state would remain inviolable, to look out for the vulnerable.
In all of this they have failed, intentionally! Quite deliberately, with cruel, cold, hard, considered purpose. Does that paint people like Baillie, Darling, Lamont & co as people who have betrayed a cause and a trust? Of course it does.
We can actually take the “country/nation” term away from the discussion, as it means nothing to them. Lets face it, if people and the wealthfare of people mean nothing to them, then we can hardly hope that positive thoughts of their country will come to the surface.
I would imagine that the UK doesn’t even register in their thoughts as far as loyalty is concerned. They only have loyalty to their immediate circle of peers (small p and big P) and to their careers.
Yes, sadly the Labour Party and it’s members, MSPs and MP are apostates, back-stabbers, backsliders, betrayers, conspirators, deceivers, defectors, deserters, double-crossers, finks, hypocrites etc.
@Albamac
Sports and Recreation her specialty?
Yeah…leapfrog and starjumps
Jeannie, the shix timesh table wash hellish, especially 6×6 ish 36 It was like going to school to have a shower.
You missed out ‘wankers’ Craig.
Craig, explain exactly how and why you believe the Labour party has betrayed a cause and a trust. Do it explicitly, showing your working, and people will listen.
Short-cut that into name-calling, and you just put them off.
Go-on yersell Morag!
Stop being so ‘nice’ Morag.
This isn’t a game.
@DMW42
ROFL :0 :0 :0
@DMW42
Sorry, that should read….:) 🙂 🙂
Jackie Baillie comes across to me as a good constituency member, which is why she keeps being reelected (representing constituents well, and lying on TV, are two separate talents). Having said that the SNP have run her close in the last two elections -I believe if the local SNP had chosen someone electable, or the party central office had Dumbarton as one of their target seats and spent any money in it, who knows what might have transpired in the 2007 or 2011 elections.
Gemma Doyle (the Dumbarton MP) is a nonentity however, not a patch on the previous MP John McFall.
Just my opinion on the ground as a local resident. Any jibes about Jackie Baillie’s weight, looks, or wanting her dead are unnecessary and counterproductive imho.
Dave McEwen Hill – the Anglo Saxophone – Oliver Brown genius. !
Morag – this is Labour’s Achilles heal, “the demonising of people in less well off circumstances as some sort of underclass”. Karl Marx called people in such circumstances, the lumpenproletariat, and he was happy to see them have no input to the process of government. Marx was as obsessed with the interests of capital as he was with the influences off and over capital. It would appear from Labour’s role in this mess, that some things appear not to have changed. Capital remains king to both left and right.
Man in the Jar says:
“I have in the past been referred to as a “Porridge Wog””
In my day, Jock and Taff were widely accepted because, for the most part, they carried no intentional malice but something like ‘porridge wog’ is deeply offensive – it’s double-barreled racism.
I wonder what Hermione would suggest as a suitable nickname for someone from the Black Country (West Midlands).
Dave McEwan Hill says:
28 March, 2013 at 5:43 pm
Dundee BlokeWas it Oliver Brown the name of guy you knew in Straven. I had a pub in Straven for a couple of years -called it the 1820 but it was knocked down fairly recently. Interesting place witn a huge amount of paranormal instances
Dave I’d forgotten about the pub but that confirms who you are. Hope your well and if your on FB I’ll look you up. Back in the 80s 90s I was with the Coatbridge branch SNP.
Major bloodnok, eh kent that, bit wis trehing tae keep whar e bide’s aff the site
Morag my comment at 8.04 was in response to your comment at 7.52 (there was a bit of a rush) You are correct about name-calling. It can however be extremely difficult to “haud yer wheesht” when confronted by such barefaced lies and insults to your intelligence coming from the opposition.
Hermione said:
“I don’t see the problem with being called a “porridge wog”. In my experience, a swift reply labelling the offender as a “Rupert” / “Taff” / “Mick” etc deals with it in the expected and time-honoured way, and establishes a positive relationship going forward.”
Um… you realise it’s the “wog” bit that’s offensive, right?
link to en.wikipedia.org
Try calling a “Mick” a “potato wog” sometime and then tell us if there is a positive relationship established afterwards. Actually, no, don’t.
Juteman said:
Stop being so ‘nice’ Morag.
This isn’t a game.
It’s not a game. Exactly. Stop giving way to a childish impulse to call people names. It’s self-indulgent, and it does absolutely no good at all. Indeed, it does harm, as it is off-putting to the uncommitted and allows the opposition to smear us as foul-mouthed nasty cybernats.
Eyes on the prize.
@Albamac
I have no problem with being referred to as a” Jock” whatsoever. I would regard it as a term of affection in the right circumstances. I was attached to 1st. Btn. Royal Scots for 4 years and they refer to their private soldiers as “Jocks” A Jock and proud of it!
It all depends on the context, hence the use of the “c” word as a term of endearment in certain circles.
Aye, Jock’s alright. Wouldn’t complain about that. The old episodes of Minder and The Sweeney that are full of humorous Jock-bashing are alright too – those characters really would have carried on that way and had those prejudices, so it’s fine (though the early Minder episodes showing Arthur’s blatant suspiciousness toward other ethnic groups are no longer shown – same with some early Only Fools and Horses eps, I hear).
Morag, is there something wrong with being a cybernat, did you not send in for a mug .
The phrase desert rat was meant as a slur but if the cap fits
Not only do I have the mug, I have learned the Cybernat Song.
That doesn’t detract from that fact that the opposition love to promote this meme of the vitriolic, abusive, hate-filled cybernat. Let’s not make it easy for them.
@Man in the Jar, Albert Herring, BillyBigbaws
I think we’re living in a much nastier place, now, thanks to the concerted efforts of malicious politicians and the press.
Mutley 79
“morally superior” “not committed to the independence cause”. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head.
I would also add his ego is larger than his ability. I think he’s becoming a liability.
I’m sorry Morag, but i’m not your child, to be told how to act.
I’m very angry about what is happening. This isn’t a dinner party discussion, so don’t patronise me please.
This battle will be won in the housing schemes, not internet debating sites.
I forgot to say that the lumpenproletariat is the left wing’s dirty little secret, and IMO the main reason the Thatcherite demonisation of the ‘underclass’ has gone largely unchecked to this day. Labour were terrified of the negative press such a revelation might result in and it undermined any intellectual argument against the cod science theories. This nugget of information sheds light on the lie that is our left – right political paradigm.
Vote Yes in 2014.
I hear on Radio 5 that English football fans have been reported to EUFA for racist chanting against their own black players in Montenegro.
That will be the BNP / Ukip element that supports the NO campaign and trolls the Scotsman online comments.
Morag, thanks for responding.
Labour have prevented eroded access to free education.
Labour have prevented access to social housing.
Labour have eroded the NHS.
Labour have indulged in corruption in local government.
They have betrayed a trust in these areas.
Will that do for starters?
@dundee bloke
Apologies – however, your secret is safe with us.
Juteman said:
I’m sorry Morag, but i’m not your child, to be told how to act.
I’m very angry about what is happening. This isn’t a dinner party discussion, so don’t patronise me please.
This battle will be won in the housing schemes, not internet debating sites.
I’m expressing my opinion. You are entitled to yours. Only RevStu decides what is actually allowed to be posted here, and he has decided on very wide latitude, but with requests from him to observe certain standards.
You could check back and remind yourself what he said.
I agree with you about the housing schemes part. I have no opinion on your use of language when canvassing a housing scheme. I do have an opinion on what does us harm on the internet.
Craig M said:
Labour have prevented eroded access to free education.
Labour have prevented access to social housing.
Labour have eroded the NHS.
Labour have indulged in corruption in local government.
They have betrayed a trust in these areas.
Will that do for starters?
Absolutely.
What are all the “nice” among you going to say if we lose by a small margin.
These people, the Baillies, the Browns, Darlings, Lamonts KNOW they are Scottish, its Scottish Labour, Lib/Dems in Scotland, tories don’t count, they are sort of honourary Scots.
The fact remains, they are working against their nation. So to say they don’t understand, or something, sorry. I don’t understand.
This is a low level war, and the fate of the nation is in the balance. These people don’t think of being nice. That’s not the way you get on in SLAB. They will be sending as much cash as they can up here to be spent against us. Spending limits won’t worry them if they can hide it.
Are you going to say, ach well, we played by the rules and we are auffy superior, but we lost, and our children can take up the baton in 20 years.
As Nicola admitted to Brewer on Sunday there when he steamrollered over her.
As has been said above, and I have said, who he you say, the SNP on the box are too laid back.
Ken, if I thought calling the opposition offensive names would increase the Yes vote, I’d be out there lambasting them with the best.
It won’t. What are you going to say if we lose by a small margin, with people shying away from voting Yes because they’ve seen so much vitriol from Yes proponents?
Are we allowed to call each other names?
I take full responsibility for nicknaming Brian Taylor ‘Toby-jug’. As you know, I like Brian a lot and collect photographs of him. Many good things have come out of those jugs, and many good things have come out of Brian Taylor, so it’s not necessarily abusive. The fact is, he looks more like one of those things than is possible for anyone who’s not doing it intentionally, and could easily complete the impression by affixing a large handle to the side of his head.
link to aspireauctions.com
@Morag.
I get your point about being ‘nice’ online, but disagree.
The only folk that read our words are probably already decided.
We need to get folk like us ‘fired up’ and ready to engage the majority of people that sit in un-heated houses, and play bingo on a Saturday for a treat.
Ian – 🙂
ianbrotherhood says:
“I like Brian a lot and collect photographs of him.”
No comment required, I think. 🙂
Juteman, we just raised a lot of money for Stu to go on running this site so that undecided voters can be directed here for unbiased journalism.
Have we wasted our money? Or are you just assuming that nobody who is undecided will read the comments at all?
I agree with Dundee bloke on the JB death non-wish comment. If the polls are to be believed and only 25% of women voters are pro-Yes such comments can only keep the numbers down. Yes, what she says and does is dishonest and vile and shows an utter lack of conscience but mocking her geometry is a turn-off for many. As provocative as such a person can be isn’t she distracting attention from what should be the real goal – convincing them that their friends and families and themselves can only be sure of an even half-decent existence, education and health care now and in old age if the country is detached and insulated from the pillagers to the south.
Oh, and as a replacement for “("Quizmaster" - Ed)” may I suggest “fellow-traveller.”
If you think Labour have any principles left consider this
Wonga the notorious pay day lender which was criticised for its exorbitant interest rates has been invited to advise a Labour party policy review committee on the topic of “How should we deal with household indebtedness”
It remains to be seen whether the Wonga answer – charge an APR of more than 4,200 per cent – is adopted as Labour policy.
From Private Eye 23 March 2013.
Juteman, why alienate any ‘undecided’ voters that come here with a load of abusive comments and language that just leave them thinking, ‘these people are as bad as anyone else’ – those that may be wavering on the cusp of changing their stance need to be persuaded rather than abused.
And if you are right that the only people reading this have already decided, then what’s the point in all the vitriol anyway ?
One of the good things about doing street-work, stalls etc, as many of you will know, is that people sometimes speak to you as they might address the back of a cab-driver’s head i.e. they don’t know you, they’re not seeking to establish any long-term relationship, so they feel relatively free to say what they really think.
In Irvine, since last autumn, I’ve had many people (especially older folk) lower their voices, eyes darting from side to side, before telling me what they really think of the local Labour worthies, councillors etc. The venom in some of the comments was really quite shocking – point is, I know for a fact that some of those people were/are the ‘diehard’ Labour voters who’ve been betrayed by Baillie, Lamont et al.
They’ll maintain the charade of loyalty for all sorts of reasons, aye, but when they get in that polling-booth?
I give in.
Happy?
ianbrotherhood says:
“I like Brian a lot”
Ian, I like him so much that I wrote a poem for him, a few years ago. Strangely enough, it got posted on the old ‘Blethers’.
Grand palace o Pacific Quay
Headquarters o the BBC
a hoose o gless that’s vision-free
an’ fou o phoneys
a library o Union lees
a laundry fur New Labour sleaze
a purloined pot o license fees
fur creeps ‘n’ cronies
nae guardian o democracy
can caird oor ‘freend’ fae banks o Dee
when he deesides tae turn an flee
draggin’ his cojones
real news sits silent in the lee
o gang hut built by you an’ me
while trivia taylors reverie
wi’ tales o’ pups an’ ponies.
“Juteman, we just raised a lot of money for Stu to go on running this site so that undecided voters can be directed here for unbiased journalism.”
Just in case Trading Standards are reading, I feel I should pedantically note that it’s not unbiased, it’s just fair and honest and truthful.
@Juteman
I give in.
Happy?
Happy 🙂
Vitriol?
Hoi Rev!
Any chance of sticking something else on … a test card would do. Every time I drop in on WoS I’m getting presented with that [insert whatever adjective we’re allowed to use now] face of La Baillie! Even with her eyes shut it’s not agreeing with my dinner.
“Hoi Rev!
Any chance of sticking something else on … a test card would do. Every time I drop in on WoS I’m getting presented with that [insert whatever adjective we’re allowed to use now] face of La Baillie! Even with her eyes shut it’s not agreeing with my dinner.”
Hey, YOU’RE the graphics department around here 😉
Re Frazer Allan Whyte.
Yes, fellow-traveler, that is a decent simile. not quite near the bone though.
And re who reads these NNS, WoS websites.
We are all talking to each other.
We are the already decided.
We had a guy from Yes come give us a talk on how it would be won or lost on Twitter and such. So I said, what about those tho don’t use it, like me.
I was poo-pood. So I have been asking people I bump into, and guess what, I’ve yet to meet somebody who twitters etc. Maybe it’s the folk I associate with.
The only way to get the facts across will be on the door for the vast majority who vote. And if that means saying that I think the Nos are fellow travelers, or ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s, well.
Personally, and this is probably no-U as well, I always mention the statistics from WW1.
Gets me angry every time, in fact right now as I write.
Because, I say again, they are. Quislings, that is.
@Albamac-
Superb.
I’m going to print that out and stick it in my current ‘Brian’ scrapbook (i.e. number seven) alongside this picture of Brian reciting a poem:
link to stanzapoetry.org
@ianbrotherhood
Nice to meen another ‘fan’. 😉
I don’t know how I got away with these on his blog!
Blether with Brian
Is it a plot, an aberration,
diversion fae the fate o’ nation,
tae while away the hoors in verse
whilst clingin’ tae the Union’s erse?
Change the subject, come ower witty,
patronise them jist a bitty,
gie them naewhere else tae go,
hem them in, absorb the blow!
A sheltered nook, for blethers couthy.
Let country burn an’ play yer moothy!
Ianbrotherhood – You do know there is a clear line, drawn clearly in the sand, that clearly identifies the fundamental difference between being a fan, possibly obsessed with trivia, and just being a plain old stalker? Only asking. 🙂
Ian,
meet not ‘meen’. Too slow on the trigger to edit.
@Morag – Thanks for stating so clearly what I was thinking thoughout this thread, both about the bedroom tax and about name calling.
I think the name calling is a very important point. With the majority of the media ranged against us, we’re going to be judged by the worst of us. I can easily imagine some of the above personal comments made against Jackie Baillie turning up as an article in one of unionist rags. We absolutely know they are not below this. We really don’t need to give them ammunition to use against us.
WoS has been a good place to bond with like-minded people (or at least lurk there in my case). However it is starting to get more and more attention. While this is exactly what we want, there is a danger that by ranting to each other, using loaded words (such as ("Quizmaster" - Ed)) and made-up names for opponents (Lamentable and so on), we’re also going to look like a clique. Or just petty.
We need to rise above this. If we want to make personal statements or jokes about the No people, we need to stop doing it in public. Shout at the computer or rant to friends in a pub but leave it off here. Stick to the facts.
If we take the high road, we can leave them on the low road.
@CameronB-
Cheers mate. I’ll take that in the spirit of comradely concern with which it was offered.
Nae worries though. I only ever follow Brian when I’m in Edinburgh, and that’s not very often since they gave me that ‘restraining order’ hingmy…
@Rev
Yes, and I seem to remember you have something kicking about Wings HQ from yesterday when you were clearly too blootered on champagne, caviare and whatever else £30-odd grand can get you at the Bath Lidl to remember to use …(wee smiley thing).
Just in case Trading Standards are reading, I feel I should pedantically note that it’s not unbiased, it’s just fair and honest and truthful.
“Fair, independent.” That was the script. I remember now.
Yesterday Labour confirmed their support for the Bedroom Tax in West Dunbartonshire when they voted to approve a no evictions policy with unreasonable caveats.
This is in stark contrast with the comments made by Jackie Baillie MSP that West Dunbartonshire’s Labour Council would be setting a policy protecting people from eviction.
Here are links to the full briefing I’ve sent out to National and Local press outlets. Nothing but the facts and all motions/amendments for people to make up their own minds.
Briefing
link to docs.google.com
SSP Motion (supported by all 10 opposition councillors)
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3iE2gHZPSSCbkQzSlBZb1dRTW8/edit?usp=sharing
SNP Amendment (supported by all 10 opposition councillors)
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3iE2gHZPSSCdjBFZzJBLWRodVE/edit?usp=sharing
Labour Amendment (forced on tenants by the 12 strong Labour administration)
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3iE2gHZPSSCZGtmbmZEWmI2UTQ/edit?usp=sharing
My Column from the Lennox Herald yesterday morning (before the meeting)
link to docs.google.com
Corporate Press Release from WDC (confirms the caveate in the policy)
link to docs.google.com
“Labour Amendment (forced on tenants by the 12 strong Labour administration)”
So, in short, “We won’t evict people for bedroom tax arrears, so long as they stop being in arrears”?
ianbrotherhood gave me an opportunity to stick two wee poems up here.
Both offer negative criticism and insult but they were published and allowed to stand by the target of those insults. Someone deserves some credit for that, I think, but that was before BBC Scotland decided to deny everyone in Scotland the right to speak.
Brilliant piece……stuff like this is why I contributed to this site.
No Juteman, dinni gie in, just take aff yer bunnet gie it a shake and pit back oan again wi pride.
And now class: Are you all pro-active with the Yes campaign? “Cause that’s where the independence infantry are gathering.
“We’ve only just begun…” Perry Como to inform the spotty youths among you.
ronald alexander mcdonald says:
28 March, 2013 at 8:41 pm
Mutley 79“morally superior” “not committed to the independence cause”. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head.I would also add his ego is larger than his ability. I think he’s becoming a liability.
I think YOU’ve hit the nail on the head, how to call some well deserving twat a twat without actually calling them a twat. they are a NoCTTIC =NON COMMITTED TO THE NATIONALIST CAUSE
Jackson Carlow discussing ‘Bowel Movements’ in Parliament?..Well if Jackie Baille, Lamont, Davidson and Wullie Rennie don’t object to that description of them…then fair play to the lot of them. Mind you they always appear to me to be going through the motions everytime they open their fundaments on the msm. No need for personal abuse…I agree with this totally…whether they are friends or enemas…they’re still human beings talking out their arses like the rest of humanity. Dear Call KAYE WHY? (geddit, KY?) also good for flatulent flummeries..musing on the stale and malodorous constipated ‘events’ such as boring old Referendums and Homecomings…backed up..like a blocked lavvy by jobbie-worths such as Brian ‘poo-ed a loo the noo’ and Raymie Puked- in- the- cannon. As big Sean would have said’They’re a shight for shore eyes’. Prevaricators and ditherers? Liars and knaves? No they’re all just shitting on the fencsh unable to come clean and turn the other cheek in the face of arseversity. Thye ‘No ‘ campaign in Scotland: a frozen tableau of polished turds squealing like imprisoned farts in the Caledonian night.
Sorry to late to edit, thats Independence not nationalist
I hadn’t wanted to appear like a rash on this thread, but I think there is possibly a risk of chucking the baby out with the bath water here. I would not want to suggest standards of taste to anyone, but I think attacking someone for how they look is wrong. However, I think referring to Lamentable, sits squarely in the camp of satire. Perhaps not the most sophisticated, but a play on words no the less, with a political message directed at the namesake. Comedy and satire are amongst the most powerful weapons we have to demolish establishment’s ivory tower. Please don’t take them away from us.
@Stewart Bremner-
See where you’re coming from mister, but isn’t it also unhealthy to keep the cork in too tight?
Consider the plight of those who, for whatever reason, have to be seen to ‘support’ someone like Baillie, even when she behaves as she did yesterday and earlier today. Yes, most of us here are Indy supporters, but by any measure her performance was appalling. The public gallery inside the Scottish Parliament is regularly packed with schoolkids at FMQs – how on earth are teachers supposed to explain that kind of shameful nonsense? What impression does it leave with those who, in just a few years, are expected to participate in this ‘democracy’?
Baillie’s ears must be burning, aye, but not just because of comments made here – what are her colleagues and Labour strategists saying about her, right now, as they wonder what on earth to do? She may be the best constituency MSP of all time, but in her role as attack-dog (masquerading as ‘Health Spokesperson’ or whatever-it-is) she’s a slow-motion atrocity-exhibition.
It’s up to AS, NS, Jenkins and others in the broader ‘political’ front of the Yes campaign to be calm, reasonable, diplomatic – they’ve shown they can do all that, and more, while still putting the boot-in when required, and demonstrating genuine passion for the cause they believe in.
We’re no less passionate, but aren’t restricted – in this place we can sound-off (thanks to Rev) and it’s only natural that we take full advantage of the opportunity to do so. I daresay there are many BetterTogether/No supporters who agree with much of what’s written here, are disgusted and embarrassed by Baillie’s behaviour, but they cannot or dare not express themselves.
There is ‘truth’ in this thread.
Granted: some of it isn’t pretty. But it’s ‘the truth’ nonetheless.
Slainte.
OT
Just watched Scotland Tonight discussing the state of Scottish media. Abysmal. Pure pussyfooting around the bias issue and the BBC. Astonishingly inept, and so, so ironic. Spineless television.
A wasted opportunity.
@Lochside-
Impressive.
Shades of Joyce there…(James, not Eric)
Bottoms-up!
@Lochside
Glad you got that out of your cistern 🙂
Just watched Rory Bremner on Scotland Tonight – don’t think he has quite got Alex Salmond right yet
I couldn’t have told his Alex Salmond from Nana Mouskouri.
This latest ‘Emergency Question’ from Baillie is laughable to say the least. She’s had since 2010 to bring her ‘concerns’ to the attention of the Scottish Parliament. She, and her Party, have had since 2010 to formulate some kind of policy, yet she waits until five days before the deadline to demand that some-one else set a policy to deal with her ‘concerns’.
I don’t know who advises Lamont, Baillie and the rest of Labour’s Westminster collaborators in Holyrood but, be it through naivety or stupidity, they’re taking, and acting on, very poor and ill judged advice.
The Hub Venue in Edinburgh, where Lamont gave her ‘Something for Nothing Culture’ speech, is worthy of a wall plaque. It will go down in history as the place where the Scottish Labour Party was seen to align themselves with the Tories and where they made themselves unelectable.
Their constant sniping, sneering, lying and blaming the SNP for everything, from snow on the roads to failing to build enough one-bedroom houses to counteract the Bedroom Tax, makes them look more ridiculous than they care to know or imagine.
It could all have been so different. In the SNP we have a Political Party coming up with and delivering socialist policies. Had Labour’s Westminster collaborators in Holyrood had any sense they would have made a point of being seen to get on board and support any good initiatives coming from the Scottish government. In that way they would have been seen by the public to be a Political Party keen to deliver good policy and worth voting for.
Instead, acting on the advice of God knows who, or through freedom of choice, they opt to be seen as disruptive in the Scottish Parliament, completely uncooperative in delivering policies of benefit to the country, and anti anything put forward by the SNP no matter how beneficial it would be to the people of Scotland. They even opposed their own amendment to the Scottish budget. Hardly the kind of Political Party one would wish to vote for.
I have met Johann Lamont, albeit briefly. My first impression of her was that she was lacking in confidence and social skills, unable to communicate on a one to one basis. She went to walk away at the first hint of criticism and had to be called back by the experienced MP who accompanied her in order to hear me out. I do not doubt that she is a decent person away from politics, but in my opinion she does not have what it takes to be a good politician, never mind a branch leader. If she does not have what it takes to act on her own initiative but requires instead to be ill advised by Spads, who probably have less political experience than she does, then it bodes well for the SNP for the foreseeable future.
Tonight I saw a side of ianbrotherhood that I never knew existed. 🙂
If anyone is in the mood to feel even more disgusted over Labour’s hypocrisy on the Bedroom Tax, take a wee trip over to Labour Hame. Yes, it still exists. Yes, it is still terrible.
@Rev Stu-
Tonight, Rev, you are spoiling us with these references – Nana Mouskouri?
One of the most beautiful woman of all time?
Any chance of doing us all a favour and replacing…oh, never mind.
Here’s one:
Yeah, don`t knock the Nana 🙂
Okay, this time:
link to userserve-ak.last.fm
She’s almost as beautiful as Big Brian Taylor.
ianbrotherhood says:
28 March, 2013 at 10:45 pm
“@Stewart Bremner-
See where you’re coming from…”
Like!
Baillie is a liar.
Jim Devine is a liar. (Jailed)
Margaret Moran is a liar. (Avoided jail)
David Chaytor is a liar. (Jailed)
Elliot Morley is a liar. (Jailed)
Eric Illsley is a liar. (Jailed)
Tony Blair is a liar. (One day soon eh?)
Alister Darling is a serial house flipper so may have lied about which house he had his newspapers delivered to.
Oh, they are all members/ex members of the Labour Party.
Rev
Out of curiosity, have you ever been formally (or informally) challenged by anyone from your “X is a Liar” articles? Given people’s tendency to protect their own reputation/to be litigious it would be surprising if not. Unless they tacitly accept your point?
With insults, I think the risk is the Orwellian one that when words are used carelessly they lose their meaning. There are such things as fascists, but if you use that label for anyone whose opinion is a a wee bit to the right of your own you have no alarm bell to to ring when the real fascists come along. So look to exact meanings before using a word you know to be emotive.
Fom the Oxford dictionary:
Quisling: a ("Tractor" - Ed) who collaborates with an enemy force occupying their country
Fascist: a follower of fascism
Fascism: an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
(in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practices
We are not occupied by an enemy force so we have no ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s. Fascists? Hmmm.
@Oliver Brown
Commenting on the rule of the British parliament which forbids calling someone a liar, he said ‘The only time politicians tell the truth is when they call each other liars’.
link to bbc.co.uk
Trapoil outlines North Sea fracking plans
In a statement accompanying its annual results, Trapoil said: “The amount of oil potentially held in tight reservoirs is equal to, or probably greater than, all of the oil produced to date from the UK North Sea.
The concerns over onshore fracking (groundwater supply contamination, small seismic disturbances) are not specifically applicable to the deeper offshore environment. In fact the oil and gas involved is in many ways just the same as that already being produced; just has not migrated into higher porosity/permeability formations where it’s easy to get at.
@ Vronsky:The Oxford dictionary provides three separate definitions of Quisling., you have rolled two of them into one definition and omitted the third Fifth Columnist.
Consider the word ("Tractor" - Ed) a generic term, just as is fool for example, agreed? So i used the ("Quizmaster" - Ed), as a generic term in the context of social democracy, seemingly with more dramatic effect than if I had typed that the Labour MSPs sitting listening, and by implication, agreeing with Baillie were “("Tractor" - Ed)s to social democracy”, or even less dramatically, were “letting down social democracy”.
I note in the “Careful what you wish for” article above rev Stu uses the generic term “idiot” to describe unionists. Suggest you checkout the Oxford dictionary definition of idiot.
“I note in the “Careful what you wish for” article above rev Stu uses the generic term “idiot” to describe unionists. Suggest you checkout the Oxford dictionary definition of idiot.”
“Quisling” and “("Tractor" - Ed)” are of course far more loaded words, usually associated directly with death.
Looked up Prince Rupert on wiki to see where he was ‘Prince’ of. He was known as ‘Prince of the Rhine’ described as German although born In Prague in Bohemia but maybe Bohemia was considered ‘German’ then?
However he was also a Stuart on his mother’s side hence, presumably, his involvement in the Civil War.
So much energy in words is expended between labour and SNP – must delight the ‘Economic Opportunists’ promoting their ‘misery and disaster’ amongst the less well off. However, with reference to the Non Thinking Voters mentioned above perhaps the Yes campaign need to apply some of the ‘Shock and Awe’ techniques to turn them round.
@Heiskir
I’m sure before I-Day the negative aspects of remaining in Union will be given the full treatment. After all, there is so much more ammunition on that front than the British Nationalist Alliance has.
But first there is the positive case for independence to be made. The other side don’t have that luxury so can only resort to scaremongering.
I can’t wait to here the cries of “Scaremongering” from the opposition when the time comes, it will be the ultimate hypocrisy from those who can already lay claim to being world leaders in that field.
I think I may have defeated my own contention, that it would be impossible to come up with a word which described British Nationalists/Unionists (if we are still to be allowed the alleged pretense of union) who actively work in whatever way they can, to prevent Scottish independence, which was acceptable.
I even contended that if we made up a new word it would quickly be labelled unacceptable.
However, it occurred that if we came up with a new word which was an acronym which simply spelled out a descriptive phrase, as long as it was not double-entendred with another derogatory meaning, then that might be usable. I mean they still wouldn’t like it, but they would have to accept it if it was only shorthand for an accurate description.
examples:
ASIBNA – Anti Scottish Independence British Nationalist
PUZ – Pro Union Zealot
SID – Scottish Independence Denialilst
edit to add, this is not an invitation to come up with funny double meaning acronyms.
@Chic McGregor Aye Chic, having worked for American Companies most of my life, I’m not a big fan of acronyms but I do enjoy the ones that BBC Scotlandshire comes up with. The task of putting the many pros for Indy across would be so much easier without the media barriers we know about. We all do what we can amongst family and friends but reaching in to the heids of lifetime labour voters and helping them to see the light and then getting them out there to vote on the day – thats the challenge. In the world of twitter there’s lots of activity but how many of the ‘Non Thinkers’ are twitter literate. ( Now we’ve heard of twitterati but maybe twitter litter is a new one – totally unrelated.) The charisma of Jimmy Reid may well have been an asset now but he’s gone.
Please sign the “STOP the Bedroom Tax” petition at
link to you.38degrees.org.uk
Thank you.
So PUZ it is then? I’ll use it and see if it catches on.
For those who witter on about taxpayers (of whom I am one), funding housing benefits for dole moles who now live in houses larger than their needs, or TBH just funding housing benefits..consider this. Last time I checked, (and I stand to be corrected), there may have been more people WITH jobs in receipt of benefits than the unemployed…
BTW, as an aside, if you live in rented accomodation, and are in receipt of housing benefit, you may lose some of this, as a result of being in a house “too large” for your needs, but if you are single, and in a two (or more) bedroom house, you end up losing money AND when it comes to your council tax, you end up paying 1 1/2 times as much as members of a couple effectively. Double whammy.
[…] and agreed with Scottish Labour’s calls for full mitigation.” – Katy Clark has an absolute blinding […]
link to notpaying.tumblr.com
Apologies if this is irrelevant to the feature but I found this to be an interesting piece. Although I do remember being off work sick, from a crushed foot/work related injury in 2008 and having my housing benefit reduced from a 1 bed to shared allowance, out of the blue and with very short notice. I had to live on £3 a day afterwards.