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Hide the tiger

Posted on May 28, 2015 by

Earlier today we noted that the indyref had empowered the Scottish people to an extent that they seemed very reluctant to give up on. But plutocracies don’t become the establishment by giving up their thrones lightly, and so today we get this:

sc2015

The above is a passage we selected completely at random from the Scotland Bill 2015, the administrative manifestation of “The Vow” and the Smith Commission. It’s entirely typical of the full 77-page document (PDF), which is essentially an unreadable wordspew completely impenetrable to normal people. And that’s no accident.

To even begin to make sense of it you need to be sitting with both it and the original Scotland Act 1998 open simultaneously, as well as a sizeable number of other acts of parliament – in the case pictured above, the Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Act 2005.

Even then, though, you may well be buggered.

crc2005

Readers who haven’t already run off in terror to listen to “Michael White’s Moustache” again may be alert enough to have spotted that the amendments in the Scotland Bill 2015 apply to paragraphs (i) and (j) of subsection 2 of Section 18 of the CRCA 2005. Except that if you actually go and look at the CRCA 2005, Section 2 subsection 18, it doesn’t have any paragraphs (i) or (j).

We emphasise again that we just stuck a pin at random into the Scotland Bill 2015 for our example. Even allowing for the arcane and necessary fine detail of constitutional legislation, it’s simply not possible to reliably discern what the Bill does, because it refers to things which don’t exist.

It would have been perfectly possible to produce the new amended draft of the Scotland Act in full, with changes highlighted and annotations and footnotes, so that normal people would have had at least a fighting chance of understanding it.

By instead presenting it as an insoluble, labyrinthine puzzle with key bits missing, the government has effectively said “Sod off, plebs, this doesn’t concern you. You’ll take what you’re given, and if you’re really lucky some of those nice people on TV and newspapers will explain it in words you thickos can understand, and you can just take their interpretation at face value because they’d never lie to you, right?”

When the entire Bill is written like this:

sc2015b

…the government counts on the fact that any normal person will give up long before they get to parts like this, dealing with housing benefits and the bedroom tax, and which are rather harder to disguise under a landslide of language:

sc2015c

…which gives Westminster an effective veto on any action the Scottish Government might want to take in respect of either thing. (Identically-worded vetoes can be found in other welfare-related sections.)

Now, if you’ll forgive the indulgence, readers, a rare digression into the first person.

A not-inconsiderable number of years ago, I was sent a freelance contract to sign by a publisher of videogames magazines. It contained some truly larcenous claims with regard to copyright, but the publisher wouldn’t employ anyone unless they signed the contract. Unwilling to give up my soul, I decided on a plan of resistance.

I got hold of a PDF editor and subtly reworded the offending clauses to rather more reasonable terms. And then, just to see if they were paying attention even slightly, I added a brand-new one stipulating that should the publisher fail to pay me on time for any piece of work (as publishers always do), they would be duty-bound to supply me with compensation in the form of “one live tiger, or equivalent”.

contract

The publisher’s legal department accepted and countersigned the contract without a murmur, and I went on to work for them for several happy and fruitful years. They were only late with payment a couple of times, and I didn’t claim the tigers – I’ve got nowhere to keep them, and I gather they get through an absolute ton of Whiskas.

The point, though, is that governments rely on people not reading the small print. Legislature is of necessity detailed, but there’s no need for it to be incomprehensible. So when the UK government releases the Scotland Bill 2015 in a form it’s essentially impossible for anyone without a law degree and infinite patience to make sense of, ask yourself one simple question: where are the tigers hiding?

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  1. 28 05 15 14:19

    Hide the tiger | Speymouth

  2. 28 05 15 15:37

    Hide the tiger | Politics Scotland | Scoop.it

264 to “Hide the tiger”

  1. naebd says:

    Hear hear (or, applause). This is a solved problem – provide the altered new version of the document, and there are a myriad software tools that can be used to compare it with the old version. They really need to update their archaic practices.

  2. Marcia says:

    A big thank to the Rev to him saving us from developing a headache. It looks like that the Scottish Parliament is not going to be given the powers promised. We knew that before the Bill was published.

  3. Blackhack says:

    But Stu, we’re too wee and too daft to read and understand big words like wot they rote….After all we’re Scottish and can have the wool pulled over our eyes by our lords and masters at any time…

  4. You and My Comb says:

    I had a quick glance at something to do with two thirds majority. It appeared to me that the UK government has just made it difficult for the Scittish Government to call another referendum without referring to Westminster. If I am correct, this would require a two thirds majority. Similarly, any other piece of legislation that is reserved might also need a similar majority.

    I admit I haven’t read much of it and could be wrong. The only thing left for them is to be obstructive at every opportunity.

  5. No no no...Yes says:

    Superb stuff and it’s clear the intention is to stop mere mortals comprehending their devious intentions.

    Love the tiger story and based on Joanne Cherry’s maiden speech in the Commons earlier today, we have a very capable group of MP’s who will find the tiger in the text, and deal with it humanely.

  6. galamcennalath says:

    There might be more tigers hiding in there, than actually exist these days in the wild!

  7. Lesley-Anne says:

    O.K. I admit it … you have got me bang to rights.

    I failed to read past “In subsection (2) of section 18 (confidentialy:exceptions)”, my solitarfy brain cell had given up the will to live by then. 😀

    I think I now have definitive proof as to why I will never be a politician or a lawyer. 😛

  8. Brian Powell says:

    Thank you all you Labour No voters, this is what Lablame politicians left us with.

  9. BrianW says:

    Why do I suddenly feel the need for a bowl of Frosties*

    (*other sugar coated cereals are available)

  10. steveasaneilean says:

    Perhaps you could use some of our Wings donations to fund some legal dude who knows how to read these things to spend a few hours going through this with a fine tooth comb and then write a plain speaking summary for the rest of us highlighting (almost certainly) all the things we’re not going to get or that can be blocked should Westminster decide to do so.

    Then send it to the Daily Record for putting on the front page as The Vow (Not) Fulfilled!

  11. handclapping says:

    Yep, this is Westminster alright. It can manage to pay MPs increased salaries but cant afford to keep even an electronic version of the laws it has passed up-to-date.

    We want out and Carmichael too

  12. Cuilean says:

    The devil is in the detail.

  13. You and My Comb says:

    Yoda

    Nothing hypocritical in wanting to remain in Europe if that is what the majority of people want. Nothing inconsistent with an independent country wanting to make a decision about an alliance. The UK can’t be independent by your thinking so why you bother bumping your gums with idiocies I don’t know. Are you really saying that the UK shouldn’t commit to the ECHR? NATO? The Commonwealth? The WorldTrade Association etc. it seems that is your argument.

  14. Quentin Quale says:

    Have they slipped in a Sanity Clause?

  15. Chris Baxter says:

    When you find one, you can use the title of the installment:

    Here There Be Tigers

  16. chic thomson says:

    you see, we’re not genetically programmed to do stuff like this!

  17. chossy says:

    Hey folks can anyone supply a link to Joanne Cherry’s maiden speech? I’m keen to see it thanks for any help.

  18. Muscleguy says:

    Or if you as a bioscientist had to work up a project licence to work on animals such readings would come easy. I’ve done two from scratch and shepherded updates too. The accompanying personal licences are a piece of piss, except they cannot contain anything not in the project licence, in ANY detail. There are nasty legal sanctions for getting it wrong too.

  19. Chitterinlicht says:

    Embarrassed to say I trained in the law (not a lawyer) and find the deliberate obfuscation of legalisation and other legal docs actual meaning appalling.

    Basically (as Stu says) its to confuse public and enable lawyers to charge large sums of money

    I also find it just about impossible to sensibley navigate Acts of Parliament- need 5 hands 3 desks and 8 pairs of eyes

  20. bookie from hell says:

    Survivor – Eye of the Tiger

    Risin’ up, back on the street
    Did my time, took my chances Went the distance
    Now I’m back on my feet
    Just a man and his will to survive

    So many times, it happens too fast
    You trade your passion for glory
    Don’t lose your grip on the dreams of the past
    You must fight just to keep them alive

    [Chorus]

    It’s the eye of the tiger
    It’s the thrill of the fight
    Risin’ up to the challenge of our rival
    And the last known survivor
    Stalks his prey in the night
    And he’s watching us all with the
    Eye of the tiger

    REV–hope the small print blows up like the,free holiday flight–buy a hoover-daily record promo

    ( : > )

  21. Doug Daniel says:

    Remember when Alex Salmond was mooted the idea of getting someone like William McIlvanney to produce a more accessible version of the White Paper in 2013? I don’t see why certain pieces of legislation couldn’t have jargon-free summaries written up so ordinary folk could look them up.

    Well, except that this would then allow more scrutiny of the government, which is obviously the last thing they want at Westminster…

  22. Andrew McLean says:

    Yes I agree, but only to a point, in my line, I do have to look at legislation, both proposals and the actual bill, it is not uncommon to find problems, I believe that most often its left to the court to decide what Westminster’s intentions were.

    Again in my work I use forums and communicate with my colleges to decipher legislation and find a common understanding. Whilst the is a most excellent site, perhaps a more structured forum could be found so each clause can pe forensically examined, as well as an interconnection with proposals we would like to see added.

    In this we could mirror the professionalism shown by our proud MP’s.

  23. Thomas Valentine says:

    Doesn’t this veto give Mundell the power of an Imperial Viceroy / Governor?
    He was only elected as a local MP and that doesn’t extend to having that kind of authority only under the PM. Direct authority over 5 million people without parliamentary oversight.
    If they want to overturn or veto Scottish Government actions make them debate it at West Minster. We should forget Carmichael and legally challenge this keeche.
    Is there anything the SNP and Scottish Government can do? Or is every debate going to have Ruth Davidson smirking thinking she can just ask Mundell to veto?

  24. Betty Boop says:

    Stu, you are an absolute hero sifting through all this garbage.

    I sincerely hope our new MPs are paying attention to this and vehemently object and demand that the Scotland Bill is written in plain English.

    I also hope that enough of the general public become aware that the UK Government is in the business of obstructing progress in Scotland.

  25. Famous15 says:

    @Quentin Quayle.

    Hush! There is no Sanity Clause!

  26. Chic McGregor says:

    I was once sent a contract by a miniatures company which when you read and deciphered the gobbledegook, placed the legal liability of any copyright infringement claim on the sculptor (i.e. me) even though in this contract the work was to render artwork supplied by them into 3D miniatures.

    It was not resolved and I did no work for them.

  27. Macart says:

    Or instead of trying to hide those tigers, they could cut to the chase and just say you’re getting either –

    a. Nothing worth having or b. As little as we can get away with.

    Mind you that may just kick off one of those constitutional issues they’re so nervous about, so best to just hide those tigers then.

    Grrrrr.

  28. Colin Dunn says:

    Might be an idea for someone (many?) to get a copy of the original Scotland Act and make all of the the updates and then issue it as a single volume, and circulate it.

    Seems daft to have someone having to reconstruct the deconstructed material, but the alternative is to play their game as they want it.

  29. Do they not have to provide an ‘easy read ‘ version by law now?

  30. Andrew McLean says:

    Doug Daniel
    legislation comes with Explanatory notes and amendments, their are other instruments, for instance, construction legislation had an Approved code of practice,

  31. Molly says:

    Andrew McLean that’s a very good idea

  32. FergusMac says:

    Perfidious Albion acts in bad faith: No shit, Sherlock?

    In other news, bears seen praying the Rosary and His Holiness the Pope gets caught short in forest.

  33. Patrick Roden says:

    Well now hold on, I’ve got a cunning plan…

    You see the Daily Record have been crowing about how this bill is as a result of them ‘The peoples Champion’ writing the ‘Vow’ headline.

    They say that the reason they wrote the headline was so that they could ensure that all us lovely Scottish people would be assured of extra powers and the signed vow would be used by the peoples Champion to hold the politicians to account. (in other words, it was nothing to do with conning us out of our independence)

    Well my plan is simple:

    Ask the daily Record to print out a clear explanation of all these amendments /acts/ legal speaks, etc, as they must understand it all, because they are claiming to not only be the people who printed the Vow, but also the guardians of the implementation of the ‘Vow in Full’.

    They couldn’t do this unless they understood all this legal speak, so all we need to do is ask them.

    So c’mon daily Record, c’mon award winning journalist Clegg, what does this all mean?

  34. Joemcg says:

    After that headline I cannot get Ronnie James Dio out of my head,”Ride the tiger….”

  35. Broch Landers says:

    Douglas Adams would have loved this.

    But what was “the equivalent”?

  36. Alan of Neilston says:

    Lunchtime News and the B.B.C. Scotland are up to their tricks on behalf of the Westminster Establishment. The Smith Commission Report was watered down by the last Government and the Draft Paper published has already been scrutinised by Hollyrood and shown to not fulfil what was proposed by the said Smith Commission. So now the B.B.C are taking the tact that the Paper published today will enable the S.C. proposals to be enacted in full ?? However, the S.N.P having a mandate to Go Further as a result of the G.E. result in Scotland is where the battle will be fought. That’s not the case the Paper published today does not contain what was published in the original Smith Commission Report and that is where we start from even before any additional powers are identified and a case made. The B.B.C are peddling falsehoods again!!

  37. Lesley-Anne says:

    Oh look folks our *ahem* beloved BBC, apologies for swearing there, have come up with a brilliant new wheeze whizz bang idea of a new show.

    The BBC plan to screen a “Hunger Games” style game show will make unemployed people and low-paid workers compete in a series of challenges and tasks in competition for a cash prize. Only the UK’s lowest-paid workers and the unemployed will be invited to compete.

    If I ever doubted for one second the idea that not paying the BBC tax was a good idea then I think this has just made the case for me.

    There is a petition ,when is there not a petition to sign these days 😉 , here.

    https://www.change.org/p/the-bbc-stop-the-bbc-s-hunger-games-style-show?recruiter=1500373&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_term=des-lg-no_src-no_msg&fb_ref=Default

  38. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “After that headline I cannot get Ronnie James Dio out of my head,”Ride the tiger….””

    Bloody metal fans. Was supposed to evoke The Boo Radleys.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU8pfwlPF4I

  39. Croompenstein says:

    Fuck that I’m off to listen to Michael White’s moustache full bung

  40. call me dave says:

    Aye make it difficult as possible to interpret, with as many traps as possible to fall into.
    But on the other hand it’s so easy to change the rules, even without a bill, if your in charge.

    Here is a follow up from the news earlier today.
    ———————————————————–

    Tories’ Evel plan will go ahead without Westminster Bill despite SNP protests, MPs told

    THE Conservative Government’s plan to restrict the voting rights of Scottish MPs, by simply changing Commons rules and without a full-blown parliamentary Bill, will go ahead despite SNP protests, MPs have been told.

    The declaration by Commons Leader Chris Grayling came as the Government published the Scotland Bill on giving more powers to Holyrood. The first main debate about it will take place on June 8.

    During Business Questions in the House, Pete Wishart, the Nationalists’ Shadow Commons Leader, raised the issue of English Votes for English Laws; David Cameron’s response to extra powers to the Scottish Parliament, which seeks to ensure England-only laws have the consent of English MPs.

    Mr Wishart argued that something so “constitutionally important” as Evel had to be discussed and scrutinised properly via legislation and not simply by amending standing orders, which govern how the Commons work.

    His intervention followed that yesterday by his colleague Alex Salmond, the former First Minister, who questioned whether the Government could change the rules of the Commons unilaterally and called for an investigation.

    The Speaker, John Bercow, who agreed to look into the matter, confirmed that standing orders could be changed in the normal way of the Government putting down a motion for debate and vote. This meant changes could be made without passing a new law.

    Mr Grayling told MPs that Evel was about “creating a fair devolution settlement for the whole of the United Kingdom”.

    He went on: “We will, in 10 days’ time, be debating the Second Reading of the Scotland Bill, which extends substantial powers to the Scottish Parliament.

    “You must understand, it is important to make sure we have a devolution settlement that is seen by all people in the United Kingdom as fair for their interests.

    “That is what we intend to do and it is right and proper this is debated in this House and it will be. It is for this House to change its standing orders and it will be done – if it is done – by a vote of all members of this House, which is right and proper.

    “If all the members of this House vote for a change, that change will happen,” he added.

    Following Mr Salmond’s call for an inquiry into the way the Government intended to proceed to introduce Evel, Mr Bercow stressed it was for the House to decide how and whether to change its standing orders.

    “From time to time, the Government tables motions to make changes to the standing orders; sometimes in response to a recommendation of the procedure committee, sometimes on its own initiative.

    “I would not accept the motion if it breached the rules of the House but it is not for the chair to judge the merits of a proposal. It is for the House to decide whether to agree to the Government’s proposal.”

    He added: “While it is certainly an important responsibility of the chair to ensure members are treated fairly and impartially in accordance with the rules of the House, this does not limit the power of the House to determine its own rules and procedures.”

    Changes to standing orders are generally debated on a simple time-limited motion, which is printed on the Order Paper. It allows issues to be resolved in hours.

    The SNP wants the proposed changes to be made via legislation, which would require several stages of scrutiny and amendment, and a series of votes; typically over weeks or months.

    Even if this were to take place, the resulting changes would still have to be made to standing orders via a Commons motion.

    A high-profile example of an attempt to change standing orders took place on the eve of the General Election when former Commons Leader William Hague tabled a change to standing orders that would have altered the rules for re-election of the Speaker; a move widely viewed as an attempt to unseat Mr Bercow.

    The Commons descended into several hours of chaos on the last day before MPs broke up for the campaign and ministers were ultimately defeated in the lobbies after the proposed change was rejected.

  41. heedtracker says:

    Here’s the tory legal eagal wot wrote it or some of it-

    https://twitter.com/proftomkins

    See if oor Adam maybe does guest appearances on sites like WoS and then he can maybe explain in layman’s terms what on earth he’s up to here.

    He is an irony free zone.

    Lecture law at Glasgow uni, same uni that’s the biggest teacher trainer in Scotland, meanwhile and in conjunction with pharting out page after page of UK.gov legislative legaleze jibberjabber that no-one can make head nor tail of, oor Adam then savages Scottish education standards on twitter, tweets with joy at what harm new Con UK.gov will to the worst of in Scotland alongside red tory SLab legal eagle Ian Smart, who could also come to WoS and explain himself, or maybe not

    Anyhoo, latest tweets from the good Prof

    Adam Tomkins @ProfTomkins · 2h 2 hours ago
    Reality: HM Govt listens to and acts on fair criticism of draft welfare clauses, fixing earlier problems

    SNP spin: attack attack attack

    At least tory boy britnat lawyers understand the brevity in twitter’s character number limit. Funny that:D

  42. galamcennalath says:

    Everyone involved in Smith signed up to the final Smith recommendations. Most parties said Smith didn’t go far enough, but it was a step forward, a bench mark.

    What relation do the current proposals from the Tories bear to the final Smith report?

    Somebody somewhere must be able to come in with a table of what this will deliver relative to Smith.

  43. Joemcg says:

    Boo Radleys stu?! Thought you were cooler than that! Lol! Notice our old friend Muriel Gray has tweeted a wee dig about the scottish rose wearing MPs yesterday comparing it to an English Tea rose(pic provided) Sad Muriel, very sad.

  44. Richardinho says:

    I could be wrong, but I don’t think this is much different from most laws. I’m confident that the SNP have lots of clever people though who can go over it and understand what’s going on.

  45. Murray McCallum says:

    Is this how the “British Bill of Rights” will be published?

    Transparency!

  46. Clootie says:

    The “Empire mandarins” spent centuries developing non-speak to keep the various nations under their control.

    The intent of this legislation is to claim the promise has been met without surrendering a single power OR worse it is designed to have a negative impact on Scotlands finances.

    The have a simple little chant “Power devolved is power retained”

    Expect nothing from Westminster EXCEPT smoke and mirrors.

  47. Dal Riata says:

    The same practice occurs when dealing with documents written in baffling legalese-speak. Ever sat down and gone into legal documents in depth? Or tried to?

    Stuff like, “… the third party in the first part of amendment 3, (part b), sub-section (ii) will only apply if the second party (as noted in section 2 of amendment 2, (part a), sub-section (i)) has of then, or henceforth, been party to the aforementioned (part b), sub-section (ii) of amendment 3, but not withstanding…”

    Unless you have a ‘translator’ at hand, or you have some kind of background in law, or have a PhD in Gobbledygook then in most cases you’re stumped.

    Often is the case that people who don’t understand it will, if needed, compose their signature at the bottom of the document anyway just to get the details ‘out of the way’ or to get the deal, or whatever the case may be, concluded as soon as possible.

    And as such, people can and do get caught out on ‘technicalities’ – especially on issues such as insurance claims: “Yes that may be true Sir/Madam, but in the document you signed in agreement of your contract states – quite clearly – that the third party in the first part of amendment 3, (part b), sub-section (ii) will only apply if…

    Hopefully, any Bills composed in Westminster relating to Scotland in any way will be scrutinised by the SNP line by line, clause by clause and word by word by those with the capabilities to do so.

    Let the SNP beware of Westminster setting technicality-traps – or lying as ‘Sir’ Malcolm Bruce said they all do anyway as a matter of course!

  48. Lesley-Anne says:

    Oh look … there will be NO public enquiry into child abuse by politicians at Westminster. Who’d have thunk it!

    https://archive.is/SXvqn

  49. Alastair says:

    Easy Tiger – That was Gggggrrrrrrreeeeeaaaaaattttttt.

  50. seanair says:

    Didn’t catch Joanna Cherry’s speech, but saw her the other day on SKY and was very impressed. Several law degrees, QC, Advocate. The MSM will have a hard job smearing her like they did Mhairi Black.
    Think she will be a powerful asset for us and a thorn in the flesh for any Tory trying to justify this pathetic Bill.

  51. scottieDog says:

    Exactly how the city gets mps to sign up to useless bank reforms. Take bail-in policy which gives banks ‘capitalisation of liabilities’ powers where there are serious economic threats to our financial system. Sounds ok until one realises that YOUR deposits are bank liabilities. Essentially as happened in Cyprus they can turn the money in your bank account into their capital.

    This has been passed by the g20.
    Essentially they reserve the right to take your money.

  52. Lollysmum says:

    Stu-this is why we love you & WoS. You get to the parts others don’t reach.

    Bet John Swinney has now got his pin out & is sampling bits of the bill to see if this result is an aberration or infects the whole of the document. I would expect the ‘whole’ given that we know that our government is all caring, sharing & TRANSPARENT. Slimey turds!

  53. Lesley-Anne says:

    New powers for Scotland straight from the horse’s mouth. 😀

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/scotland-bill-published-on-day-one-of-new-parliament

    WARNING!

    The link includes a video with Priti Patel. Nuff said!

  54. Bob Mack says:

    Tiger Tiger burning bright,
    In the shadows of the night,
    What immortal hand or eye
    Could frame thy fearful symetry — Blake.

    I always thought he was talking about an animal, but I guess he must have seen how the Civil Service wrote The Scotland Act.

  55. Auld Rock says:

    Think I might go back to the Bank of Granny, namely under the mattress.

    As for ‘The Bill’ sounds like it is the usual Civil Service Gobbledegook, if you can’t convince people confuse or bore them with endless pages of shite. A ploy that the London Establishment have been perfecting over centuries.

    Auld Rock

  56. Lesley-Anne says:

    I think this explains all contracts perfectly Dal Riata. 😀

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u8AgUXPpLM

  57. baronesssamedi says:

    And there ain’t no sanity clause.

  58. Petra says:

    Hide the Tiger on bring on the Lion!

    I’ve been thinking about Alex today and wondering what he’s making of it all! Proud of us no doubt as we are so very proud of him. Proud of us supporting our friends in the Isles and upholding Democracy.

    He warned the Establishment that ‘Scotland would hold Westminsters feet to the fire’ if we were thwarted over the Vow and he was right hence 56 brilliant Scots sitting in Westminster now.

    And then when Alex was elected he said ‘’There is a ruch wind blowing through the great glen of Scotland this morning. There is a swing under way in Scotland the like of which has not been seen in recorded politics. It is twice the level of any swing recorded in Scotland or indeed across the United Kingdom since electoral records began in 1835. It is an extraordinary statement of intent from the people of Scotland. The Scottish Lion has roared this morning across the country.”

    How well he knows us.

    And if you visit Wings Alex I’m (and no doubt many others on here) waving and sending all my love and best wishes to you and your 55 colleagues at Westminster.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2015/may/08/alex-salmond-general-election-gordon-snp-video

  59. gerry parker says:

    @ Betty Boop.

    I sent a link to the plain English Society.

  60. Ben says:

    There is an organisation whose goal is to encourage all governmental bodies to create documents in plain English, as to be readable by all

    http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/about-us.html

    they have had some success and i just thought some of you might be interested in their existence.

    p.s. i think these are the right guys. There is also a pocket book of plain English which is effectively a tutorial on why plain English should exist and how to utilise it. I found it a fantastic read over several days whilst visiting the smallest room in the house.

  61. Lesley-Anne says:

    O.K. then who is good at this lip reading thingy?

    Seriously, can anyone read lips?

    I only ask cause patrionsaintofcats has found this wee doozy of a clip and it appears that our dearly beloved leader curses at the S.N.P. at the end of the clip. … ooh er missus! 🙂

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v2vPsxwKXE&feature=youtu.be

  62. Smith says:

    I imagine you first asked them for a lion, but they thought it was a roar deal.

  63. Calgacus says:

    I am afraid that I have had enough of Westminster.

    This is the Vow delivered?

    This is thirty pieces of silver for all you NO voters out there.

    I hope you are all happy, better together.

  64. msean says:

    Is there a bit where it says …if we (the uk government) don’t live up to the promises made to win the independence referendum,Scotland can leave as the contract has been broken.. ? I’m guessing not.

    It is all what we knew it would be,nothing. Independence will go away and dependence will return. we’ll continue to rake the cash in. They voted NO. 🙁

  65. Grouse Beater says:

    Kafka is alive and well and living in Whitehall.

    All we have to do (sigh) is repel ideological austerity imposed on us to dismantle the welfare state. And to think Scotland had it governance in its grasp all of a day.

    https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2015/05/28/the-despair-of-unemployment/

  66. Petra says:

    @ seanair says ”Didn’t catch Joanna Cherry’s speech, but saw her the other day on SKY and was very impressed. Several law degrees, QC, Advocate. The MSM will have a hard job smearing her like they did Mhairi Black. Think she will be a powerful asset for us and a thorn in the flesh for any Tory trying to justify this pathetic Bill.”

    No doubt the MSM will totally avoid interviewing or reporting on people like Joanna Cherry. Their 24 / 7 focus will be on Mhairi Black hoping to catch her eating a haggis supper and then accuse her of cruelty to animals. Many English people will be outraged and bang goes our complaining about fox hunting.

  67. Dr Jim says:

    I was used to having to digest lots and lots of words

    But this is one of those reasons why I positively can’t stand these Bastirts
    You ask for your fare share of a piece of the pie
    and what do you get
    Hundreds of boxes of Rice Crispies to count

    This needs to be put before the people

  68. Luan says:

    I can’t understand the jargon but it reminded me of Dickens:
    “Circumlocution Office the type of a government department, satirized in Dickens’s Little Dorrit (1857), in which the establishment is shown as run purely for the benefit of its incompetent and obstructive officials, typified by the Barnacle family.”

  69. icyspark says:

    O/T

    The Vision Never Dies.

    My favourite cover. Can’t touch the original though 🙂

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDs41rgyCbw

  70. Sunniva says:

    I think the suggestion above of employing somebody (a legal dude? I think any patient, literate person or persons would do) to provide a ‘translation’, or rather, a full rather than a redacted version, mentioning subsection 2 of whatever, by just putting the actual subsections in, in words, rather numbers, would be money very well spent. Perhaps a team of people is required for such a translation into Plain English.

    You did it with the Wee Blue Book. Why not the Scotland Bill?

  71. Marie clark says:

    In the name o the wee man! Legalistic duckspeak big time. Where is The Peat Worrier when we need him.

    We know that amongst the wingers there’s some giy clever folk, can they perhaps gie the rest o us a wee step fur a hint as tae whit the hell that these clowns are on aboot.

    I too am very, very scunnert o that boomin Westminster.

  72. Robert Peffers says:

    @Quentin Quale says: 28 May, 2015 at 1:35 pm:

    “Have they slipped in a Sanity Clause”.

    With bullshit as in that document they are more than likely to have slipped UPON an Insanitary Clause.

  73. jock mc X says:

    Joanna cherry QC maiden speech,lovely slap at the end.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UUEURufe68

  74. Les Wilson says:

    No one will find the tigers, as there are none, none of anything else either. It was expected though, we all know they would cheat us, it is what they do.
    What we do now is the issue.

  75. Petra says:

    @ Grouse Beater

    https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2015/05/28/the-despair-of-unemployment/

    What a well written and profoundly moving account Grouse Beater. It’s only when you have ‘been there’ that you realize how hellish it is and difficult to get out of.

    Westminster has a lot to answer for and the Labour Party, party of the working man .. my ass, is an absolute disgrace. Roll on Independence Day.

    I truly hope your situation has improved greatly since then GB.

  76. Tackety Beets says:

    Read and understood ,I only have the one question.

    Dear Rev , Fit Pdf Editor did you use ?

    The KISS factor does not exist in WM.

    As stated above it would be helpful to see it all published in a daily rag for the people to see.

    Just as we knew on Sept 17th ,its not worth the paper its written on.
    Load o coblers.

    RTS

  77. fred blogger says:

    dugdale today’s q and a’s, i muttered she must follow her script, 5secs later NS agreed with me.
    funny ole world.
    🙂

  78. Grizzle McPuss says:

    @Petra

    Joanna Cherry was interviewed by BBC-RS last night (from memory 5.30pm-ish…I was driving at the time).

    A fearsome no-nonsense lady I can assure you from what I heard. There were a few moments of sharp-intake of breath from me listening to her easily palm off any BBC waffle and attempts at cornering.

  79. Lesley-Anne says:

    I can’t remember who asked earlier about Joanna Cherry making her maiden speech but here it is now. 😉

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UUEURufe68&feature=youtu.be

  80. DerekM says:

    jeez how did you figure that out Stu my head is bursting trying to read this ??????

    Aww i wish i had thought of that i always wanted me a tiger dont know if my wee dug would have liked it though.

    Im partially deaf LA and to me it looks like he said what are you frightened off,which is nothing new from Cambam he used to say it to Ed the red all the time ,its his way of dodging a difficult question he is not going to answer,first he goes on a counter attack usually about nothing to do with the question he has been asked,then flings in a slur from which ever party has asked the question,and finishes with a look of anger as all his puppets jeer,then off mic he goads with a what are you frightened off,he is such a wooden politician i cant believe England voted for this charlatan.

  81. pete the camera says:

    We all know what WM answer is to the Vow we share our wealth and we are shafted for the pleasure at least Kilroy Silk gave you an option, we are getting both

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzZ86GYoxE0

  82. Lesley-Anne says:

    Thanks Derek. I thought I could just about make it out but for some inescapable reason I did not want to believe that what I saw was actually true. *shrug of shoulders thingy*

    I’m not sure but I think he won, his own seat at least, cause it is a well to do area as opposed to others that can barely scratch tuppence halfpenny between the whole constituency.

  83. manandboy says:

    In the Scotland Bill 2015, Cameron and crew are doing to the Scots what they’ve been doing for three hundred years viz. robbing us blind. As we speak, no one in Scotland knows exactly how much England receives in revenues and other value from Scotland. What we do know is that we get very little in return of any value or benefit to Scots. Is not the Smith Commission just such a ‘deal’?

    Another way of putting it is having the wool pulled over our eyes. Except, it feels more like steel wool – and it’s being rammed down our throat.

    Nicola and Cameron are not friends. Cameron is a vindictive opponent – it’s in his DNA. But we do seem, repeatedly, to believe that Westminster will give us a good deal. We really are a sucker for promises from a Big Name politician. All because we believe that we are part of the UK. But we’re not. Scotland is, the land – but the Scots themselves are not. We’re more like the Aborigines of Australia – in the way and a bloody nuisance.

  84. Democracy Reborn says:

    The short title to the Scotland Bill should be “Power Devolved is Power Retained”.

    The suggestion that this will give Scotland ‘the most devolved legislature in the world’ is 100%, unequivocal horseshit. Westminster’s controlling hands remain all over it:-

    • Universal Credit – Scottish Ministers require “consent” of Secretary of State to make regulations (the caveat that this “shall not be unreasonably withheld” could be dressed up by a Tory WM Govt’s for all manner of reasons)

    • Bedroom Tax – ditto

    • Fuel Poverty payments – require agreement of Secretary of State

    • Carbon Emissions requirements for gas/electricity – require agreement of Secretary of State

    The good news is, it’s confirmed we’re getting control over road signs….

  85. Grouse Beater says:

    Petra: I truly hope your situation has improved greatly since then GB.

    Aye, it has, Petra. Thank you. Got a project in casting in LA. It troubles to see hardship worsen all around; youth taken back to where we were twenty years ago.

  86. HandandShrimp says:

    We move like cagey tigers
    We couldn’t get closer than this
    The way we walk
    The way we talk
    The way we stalk

    I think the Scotland Bill is going to Quills at 20 paces. Thankfully there are a fair few lawyers in the SNP ranks.

  87. Fiona says:

    @ Call me dave

    I have only read this thread as far as your post. I am furious. This is neither fair nor reasonable and as far as I am concerned this is a “material change” which ought to lead to a second referendum. No question. I would support UDI because of this.

    Unfortunately the SNP have helped to bring this upon us, by colluding with the ludicrous West Lothian nonsense. They should NEVER have gone along with that absurdity, but it is too late now.

    If this passes we do not have full representation in Westminster, and scottish MP’s are second class.

    I do not think anything in politics has ever enraged me so much. I understand that many people in Scotland have been led to believe there is something fair about this, which only goes to show how they have been let down by all Scottish politicians in addressing this rubbish.

    Westminster is NOT the english parliament. England should get one if they want one, but they should not be allowed to steal the uk parliament from under our noses.

    This is wholly unacceptable. Wholly undemocratic. The argument should be put to the Scottish people properly and we should talk about nothing else till this is defeated or we walk

  88. PictAtRandom says:

    Is anyone surprised that a liger has been created?

    Or that the Bullingdon Boys would like to see Scots and English flailing with machetes in a constitutional and legal jungle?

    What a snarl-up.

  89. Petra says:

    @ Grizzle McPuss says ”Joanna Cherry was interviewed by BBC-RS last night (from memory 5.30pm-ish…I was driving at the time). A fearsome no-nonsense lady I can assure you from what I heard. There were a few moments of sharp-intake of breath from me listening to her easily palm off any BBC waffle and attempts at cornering.”

    Great GMcP. I hope we hear much more of her via MSM.

    I was watching the video of her maiden speech, which was excellent, and noticed Theresa May muttering something to one of her colleagues. I wonder if she was saying ‘oh sh*t she’s one to be watched’.

  90. Fiona says:

    The bill in the ATL post is fairly typical of legislation. I am perfectly sure that they do this so as to make it hard to know what is being said, since, as Rev Stu says, you have to have several pieces of legislation in front of you and also a lot of patience.

    But it is not true that the law is inherently incomprehensible: someone said above that anyone can, with time and effort and access to the bits of legislation, get to the meaning. They are right. It is just that unless you are getting paid for it, you can’t easily find the time and money to get hold of what you need and really get to grips with it. Also most people find it boring.

    As with economics, the idea is to persuade you that it is too difficult for your wee brain. So you give up. Job done. Very lucrative for lawyers and very handy for government

  91. Lesley-Anne says:

    Alex Salmond speaking now at start of Trident debate.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcparliament

  92. Skip_NC says:

    This is precisely why the Scottish electorate sent 56 SNP MPs to Westminster.

  93. Andy-B says:

    O/T.

    I do apologise.

    It would appear that it’s okay to clap and cheer in the House of Commons,as long as you’re not SNP MP’s.

    This follows the Speaker of House,and his rather stinging rebuke of SNP MP’s clapping.

    http://munguinsrepublic.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/it-would-seem-that-you-can-clap-in.html#comment-form

  94. Helena Brown says:

    Fiona, I am with you, we have very bright people within the SNP we also have too many who acquiesce to too much. We may even have people from MI5 within their ranks. May I say they did all of this to Ireland, they know no better and they learn nothing, so we may have to walk.

  95. call me dave says:

    I refer to the ‘right honourable gentlemen/ lady ‘.
    I rather like that when it is being said to any of our new MPs.

    Looks like WM debates are going to be more interesting from now on
    as well as Holyrood.

    Where is the other sides MPs (I include labour)?

  96. Iain More says:

    So translated the document can be summarised as fuck off Jocks. Excuse the bad grammar.

  97. Richardinho says:

    I honestly doubt that this is going to be a huge problem (he said optimistically!)
    The SNP have lawyers who can look through this document and understand it, or else raise the alarm if this really is a piece of subterfuge by the Conservative government.

  98. Sinky says:

    All Wingers should read

    http://reidfoundation.org/news/

    for a great analysis by Jim and Margaret Cuthbert economists of the Smith Commission’s proposals

  99. Lesley-Anne says:

    Oh look … it’s the painter and decorator from Whitehall. Oops sorry my mistake ite the Defence Minister doing an exellent impression of a painter and decorator.

    WHITEWASH … BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! … WHITEWASH … BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! … WHITEWASH!

  100. Petra says:

    @ Fiona ”I do not think anything in politics has ever enraged me so much. I understand that many people in Scotland have been led to believe there is something fair about this, which only goes to show how they have been let down by all Scottish politicians in addressing this rubbish.

    Westminster is NOT the english parliament. England should get one if they want one, but they should not be allowed to steal the uk parliament from under our noses.

    This is wholly unacceptable. Wholly undemocratic. The argument should be put to the Scottish people properly and we should talk about nothing else till this is defeated or we walk.”

    I totally agree with you on all counts Fiona. I’m bl**dy livid too.

    ”The argument should be put to the Scottish people properly”. Therein lies the problem Fiona the MSM are main players in this Dictatorship and most Scots will not have, never will have, a clue about what’s going on.

    I’m constantly complaining to, as one example, the BBC. Maybe we should all be upping the anti now in relation to them and their ilk.

  101. john king says:

    Petra says
    “I was watching the video of her maiden speech, which was excellent, and noticed Theresa May muttering something to one of her colleagues. I wonder if she was saying ‘oh sh*t she’s one to be watched’.”

    Im pretty sure Petra she was asking her friend for a translation, I really don’t think she knew what Joanne had said.

  102. Albaman says:

    All written by Stanly Unwin!.

  103. heedtracker says:

    O/T Andy Murray’s just won his match in Paris and the post match oncourt French tv interviewer is wearing a kilt!

    France knows their UK ambassador was slandered by Carmichael too.

    English commentator automatically mocks the Frenchman in a kilt.

  104. Effijy says:

    This party will not be party to parties like these, who partake in naming the First Party in the Second participle
    without taking particular attention to which parts are partially partitioned and were participants platitudes are buried under the parterre.

    What a load of insulting Bollocks from the Westminster
    deadbeats that we pay good money for under the guise of being civil servants!

    Independence for Scotland just can’t come quick enough!

  105. seanair says:

    Lesley-Anne
    Thanks for link to Joanne Cherry’s speech. Formidable new MP who will do well against the Tories, some of whom will be dreading having to face her.
    Gaun yersel’ Joanne!

  106. Sunniva says:

    The thing about unclear laws is that they allow plentiful latitude for connivance.

    He who dares wins.

  107. Yoda says:

    Trident probe finds nothing wrong.

  108. Capella says:

    Interesting comment in Scottish Legal News about what the petitioners will have to prove for the legal action to succeed in declaring Alistair Carmichael’s election void.

    http://tinyurl.com/p793j2t

  109. Truthy says:

    Let’s hope that Andy Wins in Paris!

  110. Fiona says:

    Does anyone know how the Scottish parliament is funded? I don’t mean the Barnett formula per se: I know how that works. I mean who pays for the staff and the heat and light and paper and phones and all of that? Does it come out of the block grant?

    If it does, then if westminster is to become an english parliament where is that money coming from? Are we to pay for that as well?

  111. Balaaargh says:

    I saw an interview with Dave Lee Roth who said that’s why Van Halen included things like bowls of M&Ms with the yellow ones removed in their tour contracts. The real stage rigs were so complicated and the band wanted a way of making sure the venue organisers had read the contracts properly and they weren’t turning up to play in a death trap!

  112. Stoker says:

    UK BREAKING NEWS – Thursday 28th May 2015 @ 5.45pm:

    BBC News 24: Corruption in world football.
    (the actual story broke several days ago)

    Sky News: Mankini’ in Cornwall.
    (don’t even ask)

    Meanwhile, there’s one helluva lump building under that carpet as there is no trace of the corruption connected to a certain LieDem politician and his Unionist side-kicks.

    Nice to know the priorities of the corrupt UKOK media.

    UKOK media? – zero credibility!

  113. ronnie anderson says:

    Noo to make things as clear as mud wee Fluffy hiz added his tuppence worth.

  114. Jim Thomson says:

    You’re all a bunch of editorial lightweights. I “Hah!” at your lack of lexicographical (jings, that seems to an actual word …) determination.

    You should try wading through hunners an’ hunners o’ various EC regulations to try and patchwork together a “current” document.

    If I had the time (and the inclination) I’d rattle through that 72 page thingy in a matter of weeks.

    Seriously though, I’ve had a go at untangling some of the Westminster stuff a year or so ago (some referendum or other) and gave up after a day on a fairly simple (I thought) Act.

    Stuart is bang on the money pointing out the failings of the “published” versions that appear on the parliament website. I’m pretty sure that committee members, and those who will debate the Bill, have poor, shackled, researchers who have the unenviable task of providing a cut and paste version of what should be a final(ish) copy.

  115. Gary45% says:

    Typical BettySwollocks.

  116. manandboy says:

    Maiden speeches by Joanne Cherry QC MP Edinburgh S West, today, and by Brendan O’Hara Mp Argyle and Bute, yesterday, have both been very high quality, and leads me to think that the 56 will change Scotland’s image dan sarf. I also think they will be listened to, more often and more attentively.

    This will affect the balance of the HoC, as the SNP MP’s are seen, and heard, to be rather different from the Labour & LibDem MP’s they replaced. I suspect that members from both sides will feel drawn to the SNP point of view especially if it is presented consistently in an intelligent and well articulated way, such as we’ve heard yesterday and today.

    The 56 may not have the weight of numbers in opposing the Government, but there is no reason to think that they will not have the weight of argument. It is a debating chamber, and just as there’s a knack to opening an oyster, the right choice of words from a gifted speaker, can often prise open a Government Minister on the front benches.

    Parliament TV may just be about to shoot up the ratings. I just hope we get an appearance schedule in advance, so that us viewers can watch our favourite SNP MP’s in action.

  117. galamcennalath says:

    So far I have watched three SNP maiden speeches thanks to people posting links here.

    I don’t think I have ever enjoyed watching the HoC so much!

    Keep posting maiden speeches. Folks 🙂

  118. mumsyhugs says:

    O\t That’s it – fundraiser just gone over £40,000!!! 🙂

  119. Ken500 says:

    All funding for Holyrood comes from the Block Grant. Along with £100,000 to fund the Scottish Office which is a total waste of money for some numpty to rattle about in. Liddle was reported to spend her time learning French and embroidering.

    The Block Grant Pays for everything in Scotland. £35Billion. (UK) Pensions/Benefits £15Billion. £4Billion Defence. Scotland raise £54Billion in tax revenues. Scotland raises as much as it spends, but could save more and spend less with different (from Westminster) policies.ie Cut Trident, a tax on loss leading drink, investment in Clyde, CC investment in Longannet etc.

    Westminster has secretly taken the equivalent of £Billions from Scotland, wasted it and lied. On illegal wars, Canary Wharf, Tilbury Docks, tax evasion and banking fraud. Hide the accounts and kept them secret. Westminster treasury has alway claimed it could not calculate separate Scottish Accounts. A lie for obvious reasons. A click on a computer button. Even for GER’s figures Scottish VAT is (under?) estimated.

    Google (or whatever) Official Scottish Gov site – search GERs – go through the documents the tables are there.

    Google (or whatever) Official UK Gov site. Search statistics. Three documents come up. Look through the middle one? The tables are there. Taxes raise in UK £466Billion.

  120. Silverytay says:

    I hope someone can save all the maiden speeches from team 56 , I have watched two so far and both have been very good .
    If all of team 56 are as good as the two I have watched I am sure they will make a big difference down in westminster .
    One thing is sure and that is that the establishment will know they are there unlike the feeble 50 .

  121. Fiona says:

    Apparently it cost £66 million to run the Scottish parliament in 2014. If, as Ken500 says, that comes out of the block grant, then how is the cost of running the english only parliament to be met, for those periods when Scottish MP’s are excluded?

    Has this been discussed?

  122. Andrew McLean says:

    @ Capella,

    I would only add to the contents of the link that, as far as illegal activity, I would suggest,
    A breach of the official secrets act, and aiding and abetting misconduct in public office.

    The defence would probably be public interest, however his actions would count against this in that he tried to conceal his involvement, and the author of the call to the newspaper although a political appointee was governed by Whitehall, remember all that time he was still a government minister, and remained as a minister till the next administration was formed by David Cameron so if he believed it was in the public interest he was the instigator.

  123. Caroline Corfield says:

    Trident probe finds nothing wrong.

    Lol. Just because the people in charge of the things alleged to have gone wrong say that nothing has gone wrong, we should believe them?

    I’m guessing you’ve never complained when something has gone wrong. Let’s imagine then you get in an electrician to do some work. It needs to comply with building regs, he needs to be certificated for the work. You don’t bother making sure about either of these things though, because he says he can do the work and it will be safe. Even though your neighbour admits ( analogous to the FoI request on accidents at Faslane) that in the recent past this same electrician has dangerously messed up work but luckily nobody died to it all got hushed up.

    You, I presume would be perfectly happy to carry on using him, and indeed would aid any subsequent covering up of his dangerous and shoddy workmanship? Even after his apprentice has told you all his shortcuts and mistakes, because the electrician says his apprentice is a bit soft in the head.

    Really?

  124. Fiona says:

    Surely public interest can’t fly? They held on to it for ages. And there was no reason whatsoever to leak, because AC could just have raised it in the HofC directly. Public interest surely only applies when all legitimate routes are closed?

  125. maureen says:

    Lesley-Anne

    Don’t know if anyone has replied regarding lip reading comment as I havn’t read all the comments yet but he clearly says ” why don’t you f*ck off”

  126. ronnie anderson says:

    We have in oor armoury the ideal weapon to combat the jibber jabber of the legaleize of HOC/HOL,its A Guid Scots Tongue.

  127. Andrew McLean says:

    Sorry the cut and paste from word missed part,

    The illegal activity is defined as Making false statements, knowing them to be untrue, Mr Carmichael is on record as saying he didn’t see all the memo, convenient he can use the defence he did authorise the release as he believed the report to be true, I would argue that the decision was reckless, and therefore it was his responsibility to assure himself of the facts.

    The next was if it didn’t succeed then a complaint could be made, however this may be what police Scotland are looking at.?

  128. maureen says:

    Lesley-Anne. No its “what are you frighten of” he’s saying. got it wrong!

  129. Petra says:

    Some data taken from yesterdays National newspaper on Scotlands contribution to funding SOME of the projects that have / will benefit London but not Scotland:

    London Olympic Games … 843 million

    London Sewers Upgrade Project … 400 million

    East London Line Extension … 6.4 million

    Crossrail Rolling Stock … 100 million

    Garden Bridge Project …6 million

    HS2 … 3.64 billion

  130. Paula Rose says:

    FFS it’s “darn sarf” OK?

  131. Petra says:

    @ Caroline Corfield says ”Trident probe finds nothing wrong.”

    Aye right enough as long as they are located in Scotlandshire.

    ‘Sunday Times ‘British Gov treating Scotland with contempt over Trident Safety’ 6 January 2013. Nuclear submarines based in Scotland cannot be moved to the Devonport naval base in Plymouth for safety reasons. Ministry of Defence indicate that the area is too densely populated for such a move to be practical, and that an accident could put thousands of people at risk … up to 11,000 people (and the rest!) in Plymouth could die.”

    ”The RUSI Report states that introducing Nuclear-armed SSBNs to Devonport will unavoidably introduce a new risk that an accidental ignition of one or all of a submarine’s Trident D5 missiles could spread radioactive material over some of Plymouth’s 260,000 inhabitants ………… but that due to the large population nearby “the consequences” of such an event would be far more severe in Devonport than in Faslane’’ (Plymouth Herald).

  132. Petra says:

    bellacaledonia: Smith Commission: why the economic and fiscal arrangements need to be changed

    http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2015/05/26/smith-commission-why-the-economic-and-fiscal-arrangements-need-to-be-changed/

  133. Lesley-Anne says:

    Thanks Maureen. My partner is pretty deaf and she watched it and believes he said **** off. Hey ho. Either way he’s an *****hole! 😀

  134. Lesley-Anne says:

    Anyone wanting to see Tommy Sheppard’s maiden speech can view it here.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhwMoPF6540&feature=player_embedded

  135. Fiona says:

    @ Petra

    Guardian also had a report about that at the same time

    http://thosebigwords.forumcommunity.net/?t=49449627&p=372045511

  136. Just watched Tommy Sheppards speech,great stirring stuff and Edinburgh East should be so proud of him!

    He never uses notes for speeches and kindly came to our `open air YES`event last august,at very late notice,a real gent.

  137. X_Sticks says:

    Diving in with O/T

    Live Independence livestreaming Talking Heads 1 with Craig Murray, Dr Mark McNaught and Michael Gray

    http://tinyurl.com/ottg8nt

  138. heedtracker says:

    HS2 … 3.64 billion is a lot of big contracts but the real boost for London and the south east

    http://www.crossrail.co.uk/benefits/wider-economic-benefits/

    Crossrail is just one of several giant London infrastructure spends, £15+bn but Crossrail say here

    “Overall the benefits of Crossrail are estimated to be at least £42 billion in current prices.”

    That’s just one new under and overground line and look at how much it benefits London.

    This is what so creepy about all the tory britnats out there currently raging away against Scotland FFA, like this numpty

    https://twitter.com/kevverage

    boosted along by tweeting red and blue tory numpties, well we all know them know, Prof Tomkins, Wiffie Beans, Duncan H etc

    Who pays for big spends like Crossrail and who takes the profit?

  139. Gary45% says:

    I said years ago, that the citizens of Scotland were unwittingly saddled with some of the debt in the construction of “The City”, ( nobody gave a toss)

    Had they realised then, that Scotland gets no benefit from money wasted in Slumdon, we may have had a different result to the Referendum last year.

    The media and the establishment will spin and fabricate lies and nonsense, regarding how much Scotland, and the rest of the UK benefits from the Trillions spent in Slumdon and the Saff East, with the myth that it benefits everyone on these Isles.

    One of the latest pieces of garbage is the “benefit” to Scotland of another runway at Heathrow, TOTAL LIES, we will pay for it and Heathrow or somewhere else in the saff east will use it for more over seas business coming into Slumdon and reap the rewards.

    The tide has changed and the whole country “Scotland” has woken up, soon the message will reach out to the other parts of the UK who have also been shafted by the establishment.
    Any part north and west of Watford you are more than welcome to join us.

  140. DerekM says:

    @ yoda

    Are you surprised?

    Its not like they are going to admit its a total clusterfuck are they,cant have the big bad Russians thinking team GB are defenseless now can we, just in case they decide to invade us and turn us all in to commies.

    If anything they are still rolling about on the floor laughing their heads off at you lot so i think an invasion isnt likely.

  141. maureen says:

    Lesley-Anne

    You got that right!

  142. Capella says:

    @ Andrew Maclean
    I agree but in terms of the Representation of the People Act the relevant section seems to be s106 False Statements as to Candidates, according to Prof Chalmers. (If that is the route the Orkney electorate are thinking of taking.)
    Depends what an illegal or corrupt practice is. Most of us would agree that lying for electoral advantage is corrupt. Is it illegal? It certainly should be.
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/2/section/106

  143. MD says:

    Crowdfunder to hire a policy expert to translate it?

  144. Capella says:

    Re billions spent in London on infrastructure projects:
    In “The Taxing Question of Land” which someone linked to a few threads back (apologies I forget who) there is a neat example of the cost of extending the Jubilee line in London at a cost of £3.5 billion. The average rise in house values along the route was approx £200,000.
    Multiply that along every infrastructure project and I think we can explain the exponential rise in house prices in London.
    See at 15 mins into the video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pYSsME_h7E

  145. Fiona says:

    That is an interesting section, Capella. Thanks for linking

    I am not sure it applies in this case because of the way it is worded. It seems to refer to false statements about a candidate in the election, and Ms Sturgeon was not a candidate. I do not see how this section can apply

  146. Lochside says:

    Yoda…you should change your moniker to ‘Skoda’. It rhymes and just like the motor, one day you’ll catch up with the rest of us.

  147. Calgacus says:

    @Fiona,

    I completely agree with you EVEL=UDI.

    We walk, enough is enough.

  148. Petra says:

    @ Fiona says ”Petra Guardian also had a report about that at the same time.”

    http://thosebigwords.forumcommunity.net/?t=49449627&p=372045511

    I know Fiona they must think that we all came up the Clyde in a banana boat. And what a brass neck to suggest that McNeilly is lying.

    The Admiralty paid a visit to Gibraltar in Jan / Feb this year and were told to push off by them AND the Spanish Government due to the associated risks.

    It’s clear that there is NO other place to base them.

    They (conveniently) built up Devonport / Portsmouth so that’s out.

    Barrows water is too shallow and Milford Haven is ruled out too because of the oil refineries / gas terminals.

    Faslane area, Helensburgh and Glasgow don’t count (all of Scotland in fact).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnMBhl1qtOQ

    I suggest they relocate it to the Thames.

  149. Rock says:

    What I have been saying about the vast majority of lawyers?

    If anyone has missed it please ask and I will be happy to say it again.

  150. Fiona says:

    @ Rock

    I don’t think anyone has missed your views on lawyers. They seem to be the same as your views about anyone who disagrees with you.

    Do please be assured we do not need to hear it again.

  151. Tackety Beets says:

    L A @ 7.40 PM

    Thank you for the TS link .

    Jings , he was good . I feel there was a little admiration on the face of Bercow ?
    JB certainly looked impressed . Here’s hoping it continues .

    Fireworks awaits tho’ when this Topic / Scotland Bill turns up .

  152. Capella says:

    @ Fiona
    Agree. That section does not seem to apply. However, there may be other angles that a good lawyer will be aware of. Certainly the advantage of pursuing the case and having witnesses questioned on the details is worth pursuing. The electors in Orkney and Shetland deserve a trustworthy representative.

  153. Fiona says:

    Oh certainly, Capella.

    I am assuming that the forms of corruption recognised in law are not so limited as the act seems to imply.

  154. DerekM says:

    @ Petra relocate them, i would much rather see them decommissioned and scrapped before we lose a bunch of our boys and girls to Davy Jones locker and leave more nuke bombs lying at the bottom of the oceans with dangerous radioactive material leaking out them never mind another nuke reactor.

  155. Lesley-Anne says:

    Aye TB John Bercow did seem to be extremely impressed by not only by Tommy Sheppard’s speech but also by the fact that the FAMOUS 56 were all gathered around to give him moral and vocal support. Something that has never been seen before in House of Commons apparently. 😀

  156. Kevin Evans says:

    No matter what’s offered by Westminster in principle we should demand they stick it up there arse. Whatever gets offered its gonna be designed to trip Scotland up.

    Independence or nothing

  157. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    According to the Ministry of Defence early in 2013 Trident submarines could not be moved to Plymouth “ because they do not have safety clearance to dock there as the dockyard is in densely populated area and an accident could put thousands at risk.”

    So we are expendable (as usual).

  158. John from Fife says:

    So do the SNP oppose this hugely altered Scotland Bill or support it.

  159. ronnie anderson says:

    The many Alias’s of the Trolls.

    You and My Comb says:
    28 May, 2015 at 1:35 pm

    Yoda

    Nothing hypocritical in wanting to remain in Europe if that is what the majority of people want. Nothing inconsistent with an independent country wanting to make a decision about an alliance. The UK can’t be independent by your thinking so why you bother bumping your gums with idiocies I don’t know. Are you really saying that the UK shouldn’t commit to the ECHR? NATO? The Commonwealth? The WorldTrade Association etc. it seems that is your argument.

    It pays to rRead all the posts.

    Having searched all three previous threads, there are no posts by Yoda to justify that posting at 1.35pm.

    Just dont reply to Trolls,a waste of your time & destroy’s the flow of the threads, an ma Fekin sanity.

  160. Dr Jim says:

    I’ve just been reading some of that Labour Twittery bile that they engage in you know the stuff (You’ve got no money, Scotland has nothing Nya Nya Da Da)We’re better than you

    What puzzles me is loads of these poisoned people don’t even live in Scotland and the ones who do, If you hate us so much
    “Leave” If you’re unhappy being Scottish Go Away You’ll not be missed and we can get on building our country up instead of tearing it down

    I’ve tried patience, sensitivity to the moronic behaviour
    but really these folk would fit right in elsewhere where there are the same kind of losers as themselves

    As far as Scotland’s finances are concerned I never even try to argue anymore I just figure if they don’t want to help then they’re a hindrance
    And if my Government that I voted for needs my help they can have whatever I can afford short of deprivation of course

    If Mr and Mrs Weir can donate a million at a time on several occasions I can sling a few quid in, lets face it we do it for crowdfunders

    Now I don’t think Mr Swinney will need my few quid but if you ever do it’s there John

    For the folk who decry Scotland can I just say
    Fuck off we’re busy

  161. Andrew McLean says:

    Fiona,
    Reference to candidates can be the political body, as previously upheld. Therefore making a claim about a party can be inferred to include the SNP candidate, I admit it’s a tough push, but not insurmountable for a good Lawyer in the diet of proof.
    I did mention vaguely this in a post in the Herald but some gentleman with a OBE pestered me. So I desisted.

  162. Dan Huil says:

    Who will quit first?: Blatter or Carmichael?

  163. Tackety Beets says:

    Kevin Evans @ 8.53 PM

    See my RTS on my post @ 4.18 PM

    I agree with you on this farce . I know that any additional powers etc should be welcome, but this sneaky veto is just pants .

    My guts are with you , maybe they should RTS .
    Threaten to at least . ” Not fit for purpose”

    This pathetic effort on devolution needs to be scrutinised thoroughly for ” Traps”

    Get Federal Broon oot to confirm its ” Near Federalism”

    Ooo I forgot he’ll be too busy doon Dalgety Bay beach building sand castles with his bairns!

  164. ArtyHetty says:

    Dr Jim @9.09pm

    Exactly, you make a good point. The too wee, too poor stuff is still being echoed around, it drives me nuts. They say, oh, but why is ‘France so civilsed, expensive but so much better’. That type of thing, I even had a couple of friends, well off to say the least, baby boomers, and my have they gained a good life in Scotland, so they went to Norway and travelled around just before Indy ref, came back and said, ‘now if only we could be like those countries’ ie the Nordic ones. I was absolutely speechless.

  165. ArtyHetty says:

    My point being they voted no.

  166. Kevin Evans says:

    As far as I can tell this Scotland act with all its caveats and such is going to remove powers from Scotland not add them.

    In a nut shell it looks like it’s going to allow Scotland to incur more debt but no means to pay it back and if Westminster chooses it can leave Scotland in a pit of mire and prevent any means Scotland could choose to work its way towards a good economic plan while still taking whatever it wants when it wants.

    Now is the time to declare full independence.

  167. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Richie Venton’s latest blog, about ‘The Queen’s Speech’, and forthcoming action to tell the Eton Boys what they can do with the script she managed to read with a straight face –

    http://richieventon.blogspot.co.uk/

  168. Fiona says:

    @ Andrew McLean.

    Thanks for that.

  169. Rock says:

    Fiona

    “Certainly my own wee case, cost £304 just to get it into court. A lawyer I spoke to told me that representation would likely cost £40,000. So I had to do it myself”

    “I don’t think anyone has missed your views on lawyers. They seem to be the same as your views about anyone who disagrees with you.”

    “Honey”, “dear”, what are your views on lawyers?

    Unlike you and your friends, I have never engaged in a troll witch hunt on this site and have never called anyone a troll.

    Holding hypocrites to account is what I do and the hypocrites don’t like it.

  170. Thepnr says:

    In GE2015 50% of the Scottish electorate choose to vote SNP and sent an unprecedented number of SNP MP’s to Parliament.

    We had to play by the rules of the UK and did it successfully, I have now watched 2 maiden speeches by new members on the SNP bench and they were excellent.

    We need to ignore the bullshit raised by the Daily Mail and it’s ilk about seating problems, clapping or chip butties. It is all deflection because the truth is taht it is they who are running scared.

    I definitely don’t want to get carried away after a single day into the new parliament but I am hopeful. I truly believe that the reason there was no mention of the repeal of fox hunting law nor human rights legislation was that the Tory majority is too slim and they could not risk defeat. I chalk that up to the SNP already.

    I also believe that individuals within the SNP group have already been building bridges with the opposition and others in government. They are playing a very smart game, this is not by instinct but is part of a bigger plan.

    They have no choice other than to play under Westminster rules but I am certain we will be hearing a hell of a lot more from the third largest party in the HoC than has ever been heard before.

    Softly, softly catchee monkey.

  171. Conan_the_Librarian says:

    Haven’t posted on here much for a while; is there a censorbot?

  172. Conan_the_Librarian says:

    Yes, there is.

    Bye.

  173. TheItalianJob says:

    @Lesley Anne at 7.40

    Thanks for posting Tommy Sheppard’s maiden speech.

    What a great orator and delivery. We have a great bunch of clever people representing us. Hope they can make a difference. In fact I’m confident they will.

  174. Joemcg says:

    England football team love fest on the ITV news at ten,world superpower and all that.BOAK.

  175. Quinie frae Angus says:

    @ Thepnr at 9.53 pm

    I agree 100% with everything you’ve said there.

    It’s deeply depressing to read the utter sh*** printed by the Daily Mail etc – it’s deliberately xenophobic, hostile and poisonous.

    However it is gratifying to see these first few maiden speeches by the SNP MPs – and the gracious reception to them by the most unexpected quarters – Jacob Rees-Mogg, FFS!

    I truly believe that as the months unfold, it will become more and more obvious that contrary to the views currently held by an ignorant populace and media, there is an articulate and intelligent bunch in that SNP block, who mean business. Luckily the post-IndyRef Scottish electorate are awake and aware – so there will be far less room for anyt laziness and complacency to creep in as it clearly did in the decades of Scottish Labour hegemony. So much so that we ceased to notice how inactive they were.

    They’ll be getting a right showing up now!

    Thepnr is right. The jibes about seats, chip butties, roses and the rest is just “squirrel!” stuff.

    The Establishment is running scared.

  176. Paula Rose says:

    I notice that our MPs take their job seriously.

  177. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Thepnr –

    Hear hear to that, especially when it comes to building bridges. Talking to canteen staff ‘as if’ they’re normal humans was a good start.

    Someone I respected a lot (sadly no longer around to see what’s happening – he’d’ve loved all this) once told me that, on starting in any new job, always make a point of getting to know the caretakers, the cleaners, the ‘jannies’: they’re the people with the big bunches of keys. They know what really happens 24/7, who’s shagging who, and where any bodies are buried.

  178. Big Jock says:

    Here on holiday in Yes Kyleakin Skye. Trying to keep up with all the bull in Westminster. This must be the biggest yes town in Scotland. Wall to wall saltires and Yes badges. I could move here. Anyone needing a break from the central belt please come here great wee town.

  179. Conan_the_Librarian says:

    Hi Quinie.

    Posted stuff earlier which did not meet Stu’s censorbot values.

    Somewhat narked.

  180. Joemcg says:

    The team that flaunted the stand sized vote no banner look like being consigned to the lower leagues for at least another season. Happy days!

  181. Thepnr says:

    Hey Conan

    Shurly shum mistake!

  182. Capella says:

    @John from Fife
    Joanna Cherry, in her maiden speech, gave notice that the proposed new Scotland Bill is inadequate and that the SNP intend to ensure that it is amended.

    Thanks to LA for links to the Tommy Sheppard and Jianna Cherry speeches. Both worth hearing.

  183. Paula Rose says:

    Ooh lookie – ancient well kent wingies crawling out the woodworkie – hello Conan, hello QfA xxx

  184. You and My Comb says:

    Hi Ronnie

    There was a Yoda trolling post that I suspect Stu deleted. I was responding to that

  185. James123 says:

    Labour represented by a Lord on QT, and they wonder why they were rejected by the people of Scotland.

  186. Quinie frae Angus says:

    Hi Conan

    Well I for one am always happy to hear/read anything you have to say….

    we can continue where we left off at the next Wings night out!

  187. Effijy says:

    Question Time looks like avoiding the most dangerous threat to democracy in the UK’s modern history, Criminal Carmichael awaiting conviction.

    Good old Johnny English TV visiting Aberdeen in their northern colony.

  188. Quinie frae Angus says:

    Hi Paula Rose

    Once a Winger, always a Winger, honey!

    Always lurking about in the woodwork even if I don’t always crawl out of it, heh heh.

  189. Fireproofjim says:

    Efficacy,
    There it is now. Let us see what transpires.

  190. HandandShrimp says:

    Watching QT for the first time in a while. Slightly unusual mix. Ruth, Alex and Lord Falconer all sound like the same Conservative Unionist voice and Lesley and John speak for Scotland.

    There is effectively no Liberal or traditional Labour voice on this. Totally weird.

    That said it is pretty civilised and with remarkably little rancour.

  191. Lanarkist says:

    The main question curtailed in time and insight. Move along now.

    Carmichael is toast, nobody really supported his stance other than try to obscure his stance regards Minister/MP responsibility.

    Lambsy sacrificed to save the real manipulators!

  192. Charles Edward says:

    What is the cost of all this gobbledegook?
    Hopping about wiki pages, cut and paste 4 u.

    The use of obfuscating language in order to disguise unpalatable truths is a common tool in dystopian fiction. George Orwell created a new language called “newspeak” for Nineteen Eighty-four which made expressing words in the negative impossible. For example, the word “bad” was excised from the language and the concept could only be expressed by the phrase “un-good.” The goal of the new language was to prevent not only criticism of the government, but also critical thought about the government. Such thought would be inexpressible.

    Though Orwell drew inspiration from the totalitarian governments of his time, these kinds of propaganda techniques are used by governments and groups across the board to frame debates in their favour, to cover up unpleasant truths, and to cast aspersion on their enemies.

    Orwell wrote an essay called “Murder and the English Language” which calls for simple, direct, descriptive language. 

    The perversion of language and the bureaucratization of society are key ways in which individuals, both fictional and actual, are able to rationalize away the evil they do.

    Archibald “Harry” Tuttle! Please save us!

  193. Chic McGregor says:

    Charlie Falconer, Blair’s old room mate, has pre history on the undermining of the ECHR. Blair wanted to create a new ministry for constitutional affairs as part of, lets call it Tory Plan J.

    He wanted to move powers currently under the Lord Chancellor to this new ministry but, clearly, the potential for media attracting turf wars, which might draw attention to the plan was great.

    His solution was to have Charlie Falconer be head of both. Under Falconer, these powers were relocated to the new ministry virtually without anyone noticing.

    When Brown took over, his contribution to the cause was to note that the name of the new ministry was perhaps just a little too indicative of the real purpose afoot. So he changed it to the Ministry of Justice. Falconer stayed in charge of both.

    The Tory history on it is Ken Clarke, who is pro ECHR, surprisingly getting the job but all of a sudden halfway through the administration he is sacked and Grayling got the job who is, along with Theresa May, one of the really anti ECHR (anti EU?) mob. Was Cameron brought back on program by persuasion or coercion? Good question.

    Interestingly, with Cameron winning the recent GE he has replaced Grayling with Gove. Gove is undoubtedly a right wing neocon in some ways (War, hanging etc.) but in other ways, and possibly on the progress of ditching the ECHR, the jury is still out (sic). The jury, IMO BTW, is still out on Cameron.

    Unfortunately, to an extent, the damage has been done in that Grayling’s Bill of Rights is already drafted.

  194. One_Scot says:

    Is Ruth Davidson the most obnoxious person in politics.

  195. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Is no-one going to tell us non-telly watchers what’s happening on QT?

    Very poor service. Nul points.

  196. Gary says:

    Not just a veto for Whitehall, this is a one man veto. The Secy of State has the final word. We vote for MSPs, they have powers to change policy and get elected on that platform, they push through legislation and win the necessary votes. So new laws are made. But before implementation they have to submit it to the man from Westminster! He says no.. What?? This is not devolved power.

  197. Effijy says:

    I will apologise where it’s due.
    Question Time did raise the Carmichael issue.

    I struggle with no one calling for him to resign?

    He created and calculated a lie to taint a very fine upstanding and duly elected first minister of Scotland, he sent it to the
    unionist press, not leaked, he repeatedly lied to cover his tracks
    on National TV. He kept the story going until after the election to fool the good people of the Northern Isles, and watched as a very costly inquiry was conducted, before finally admitting
    lied just after it being proved he lied.

    Do we stop Christian teachings in order to encourage lying and cheating for personal gain?
    Do we replace political hustings in favour of a game of “Call My Bluff” to select the best liar we can get our hands on, that might represent us in the Minster of Lying and Cheating?

    Without morals and compassion we are the beasts of the jungle.

    Carmichael must go, and he must be made an example of!

  198. Chic McGregor says:

    QT IMO Lesley Riddoch came out the best followed closely by Ruth Davidson.
    Next was TC then Falconer.

    Nuff said.

  199. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    The most significant remark in Tommy Sheppard’s remarkable maiden speech was that the independence cause would not be fought at Westminster but at a Parliament 400 miles north.

    Exactly

  200. Paula Rose says:

    Hi Quinie frae Angus – main thread but never mind, its all a bit obscure – kisses sweetie.

  201. Tommy Sheppard’s speech a must hear. Magnificent.

  202. pete the camera says:

    Ian B Question Time is on radio five live

  203. James123 says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    Is no-one going to tell us non-telly watchers what’s happening on QT?

    Dimbleby took off his shirt and started rubbing his nipples in a suggestive manner, this provoked both the audience and panel members into an orgy of sex and violence. It was disgraceful.

    To be honest I didn’t watch it either so I can’t say for sure that’s what actually happened.

  204. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    @Big Jock,
    give my regards to Willie Park at the King Hak – The original Yes Bar.

    Skye – a great place for the independent minded people.

  205. HandandShrimp says:

    Ruth was very defensive of Mundell (and a few other things) on the smeargate and laid the blame squarely on Carmichael. That may be the case (Mundell seems even more inept than Carmichael at that sort of thing) but it will bite her if it is not the case.

    I think on balance, a by-election with the people deciding Alistair’s case is the fairest solution. Both he and they get a second chance.

    All in not a bad QT – pity it seems so hard to get a right to die piece legislation to cover all the bases. My feeling is that the political will is now there if we could get a water-tight bill drawn up.

  206. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @pete the camera –

    Hoots mon!

  207. Chic McGregor says:

    OT
    For the record, Edinburgh is only approx 296 miles North of London.

    Although it is about 332 miles as the crow flies.

    Edinburgh is also well to the West of Bath.

    Indeed it is marginally to the West of Cardiff, making it the most westerly capital in Great Britain.

    Other geo-factual curios

    The furthest west point of mainland Great Britain is the Ardnamurchan peninsula not Lizard point or Land’s End.

    The furthest north point of the mainland of the island of Ireland is in southern Ireland (RoI) not in northern Ireland (N.I.)

  208. Grouse Beater says:

    Alex Massie enraptured by the sound of his own words, smitten by each sentence before he finishes it.

    Didn’t I do well. Did I really say that? How clever. – followed by a smug, I’m humble but not really, smirk.

  209. Lesley-Anne says:

    “I’ll leave the Labour party to join forces with the Tory party as they have a lot of pracitce in that area” or words to that affect as spoken by the one and only Alex Salmond on This Week. 😀

  210. Paula Rose says:

    Chic honey – where is the mid-point of the UK? Before or after HS2?

  211. Chic McGregor says:

    Paula
    Not sure how it would be defined.
    But whether by lat and long mid points or by using a hanging lamina it is still well north of ‘the Midlands’ and a lot further north again from ‘Middle England’.

  212. Indigo says:

    Haltwhistle claims to be the UK mid point – in Northumbria

  213. Tinto Chiel says:

    @Joemcg 10:34.

    As a long-suffering supporter of They Who Bear The Hoop, I would advise against any half-time triumphalism.

    Surprised by our chutzpah. Hope it survives 90+ minutes and several penalty claims.

    Seems to me a rookie English manager was less intimidated by Ibrox than the likes of Butcher and McCall.

    Anyway, weren’t those maiden speeches really inspiring? And great support from the white rose brigade. I thought J. Rees-Mogg and Bercow were very fair. The former is a young fogey of massive proportions but is decent, if totally out of touch. The latter can be managed. Over to you, Angus and Alex.

    Onward.

  214. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    @Chic,

    Interesting question – which is further west – Edinburgh, Carlisle or Plymouth?

    Edinburgh – hence why we need GMT not European Time.

    It is not a question of us only being further North – We are also much further West (left?) than the rest of the Britain.

  215. James123 says:

    John Nicholson has a strange way of speaking, like he’s trying to hold in a burp at the end of every sentence. Lesley Riddoch was great but for me this was just another fairly insipid edition of QT.

  216. Indigo says:

    Which is further south, Kirkcudbright or Newcastle?

  217. Chic McGregor says:

    Oops just noticed yet another senior moment.

    I meant AM not TC.

  218. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Well, after dipping into this page all through the evening, I have finally reached the comment box. So, a couple of comments…

    Hi Rev Stu.

    You mentioned the Boo Radleys.

    And here was me thinking you were (maybe) a closet Lulu fan…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqrWyO-_lK0

    or, perchance, you were overcome with the vibes of this tuneful tribute to Nicola Sturgeon…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppzqGOTEUxM
    _____________________________________________________

    Hi Jim Thomson says at 6:13 pm

    You’re all a bunch of editorial lightweights. I “Hah!” at your lack of lexicographical (jings, that seems to an actual word …) determination.

    You should try wading through hunners an’ hunners o’ various EC regulations to try and patchwork together a “current” document.

    For reasons that are of no interest to most peeps, I had to acquaint myself with the TUPE Regulations a wee while ago.

    I was able to understand that what was being proposed viz a viz me and my workmates totally flouted the regulations. By pointing out the other side’s lack of understanding of the regulations, we were able to stop the transfer.

    I merely point out that the regulations that I read were not (I suppose) couched in terms that the average Joe would find intimidating. We were able to understand them and fight our case.

    The TUPE Regulations were an EU initiative so, from a personal point of view, I found membership of the EU beneficial to this worker’s rights.

  219. Chic McGregor says:

    Kirkcudbright is a fraction of a degree further south than Newcastle. 54.8320 N v 54.9667 N

  220. call me dave says:

    I learned something this morning about the UK main island map thanks to the references and checking them out on google.

    Thanks to all for the three bits of information. I was surprised and it had never occurred to me.

    Mind you, as someone who put the cereal in the fridge on Thursday morning and the milk in the food cupboard…that’s a senior moment! 🙁

    She’s threatening to sew a label with my address on it inside my jacket. Seriously!

    PS:
    The SNP maiden speeches are first class excellent stuff.

    Now where is that other baffie?

  221. Robert Peffers says:

    @Yoda says: 28 May, 2015 at 5:52 pm:

    “Trident probe finds nothing wrong.”

    Aye!
    Richt!

    I worked on the very first Nuclear Powered sub, Yoda, and on every other one until I retired. Then for a while I was doing the CCTV and remote controlled gear used for reactor refuelling.

    Then, Yoda, I spent many years in the RADIAC Lab, (Radio-Activity-Detection-Indication-And-Computation). That is we tested, tuned, repaired and calibrated the several types of instrumentation used to detect radiation of all kinds. We also did, chemical & biological warfare detectors. That is both portable and fitted on board submarines and surface vessels.

    Now you will understand that background was from the point of view of Radiological safety and protection. I thus worked among civilian Dockyard workers, Naval personnel and contractors. I also worked at the Clyde Base when it was being built up to being the main nuclear submarine base.

    Only the official Secrets Act prevents my from telling you tales that would turn your hair grey overnight. I’ll tell you a brief incident, though. I was checking instruments on board a boat under reactor refuelling. I took to the boat a batch of repaired and recalibrated instruments and laid them on the counter where the were picked up by the monitors who checked for dangerous radiation levels.

    The drill was to deliver the fresh batch, check the instruments in use and take away any near recalibration time or suspected of being damaged. A monitor came in, threw a unit violently onto the counter, swore, picked up a freshly calibrated instrument and disappeared down the poly-tunnel towards the reactor. A few minutes later he repeated the same procedure, then again.

    I was already suited up to go and check the doorframe monitors on board so I followed him as he was throwing around units I’d been fixing and calibrating. However, the last radiation detector he had picked up was one I had just been about to stick a, “Do Not Use”, warning label on.

    As I came upon him near a coolant pump I asked him, “How’s it going John? Are you Getting good readings? John replied, “I am now but there were a load of duff instruments before I got a good one”. Now, Yoda, this is radiation we are talking about. You cannot, see it, hear it, feel it, taste it or smell it and he had just been using a broken instrument that was reading very, very, very, low.

    I sent him off the boat to his boss and went with him. On being asked why he kept throwing delicate instruments about he said, “The weren’t working right anyway”. His boss asked him how he knew and he said, “A good monitor knows what to expect and it was reading way over the readings I had been getting before”.

    Now I’m not joking when I tell you these instruments were for reading about as high a level as you could get and when I later checked with a good instrument the damned thing bounced the needle of the end stop, (it is designed to do this as Geiger tubes go into saturation at their top levels and would drop back to zero without that wee circuit).

    And that idiot had been working in that high level and didn’t believe what the instrument was telling him. Now he was all right for we all carried pocket dosimeters in our suits and had film badges too. He did though, get a hefty dose of radiation and had to be taken off the job for a while. Thing is, what if I had not been there and he had passed that coolant pump as safe to work near? What of the other workers who were not radiological safety workers?

    Do you think things are any better now?

  222. Manandboy says:

    From now on, I’m going to listen very carefully to everything that Robert has to say. The odds against me being right and Robert being wrong are just too great. It’s a weight off my shoulders.

  223. Hugh says:

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but if the SNP go in to a Scottish parliamentery election on a mandate of Independence and say, win every 1st MSP seat, do they not then have the right to say Scotland is Independent? i.e. unilateraly?. Surely the UK government wouldn’t have leg to stand on?. I know it’s not impossible for the SNP to do it given the mood in Scotland of late.

  224. Hugh says:

    Just had a flash back to ma Granny, God bless her. She swore she had relatives who carried one of his lesser known ditties on freedom. “Where e’r you be,
    Let yer wind blaw free!
    If true maybe they can practise that in Westminster. 🙂

  225. Hugh says:

    @ Hugh
    That was meant to be Rabbie B.

  226. Wee Jimmy says:

    O/T

    Toby Young of The Spectator has just posted a scathing article on Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP – by way of a kind of twisted defence of Carmichael’s actions.

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/life/status-anxiety/9541262/nicola-sturgeon-protests-too-much-about-alistair-carmichael/

    The whole article – even if the content were true – is one huge “Tu Quoque” logical fallacy (i.e. ‘ah – but you lied as well so you must be logically wrong’). Lot’s of contradictions to my understanding of the financial position regarding Barnett, and muchos foaming at the mouth Britnattery in the comments section. Look out for the obligatory Nazi references!

  227. Conan_the_Librarian says:

    @Hugh.

    That was the SNP’s policy before devolution.

    Unfortunately it isn’t now.

  228. Dorothy Devine says:

    Wee Jimmy , I wish I hadn’t read the guff above the line by the so called journalist but the rabid bunch below is more than I can take.

    Once again , I beg folk not to go to these sites and comment – leave it to the ignorant, let then fall out with each other. And don’t give these papers the hits.

  229. john king says:

    Lochside says @8.24pm
    “Yoda…you should change your moniker to ‘Skoda’. It rhymes and just like the motor, one day you’ll catch up with the rest of us.”

    Apparently they have really good rear window heaters so you can keep you hands warm while your pushing them. 🙂
    _______________________________________________________________
    “Trident probe finds nothing wrong.”

    Nothing to see here
    nothing to see here move along. 🙂
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSjK2Oqrgic
    ____________________________________________________________
    Tackety Beets @ 8.38
    “Jings , he was good . I feel there was a little admiration on the face of Bercow ?
    JB certainly looked impressed . Here’s hoping it continues .

    Fireworks awaits tho’ when this Topic / Scotland Bill turns up .”

    I really wish the cameras would pan more often to the (few if any) tory front benches sitting through those maiden speeches so we could watch their faceS fall, while they listen to an erudite and capable bunch full of righteous conviction, they are shitting themselves
    What the SNP lack in numbers they more than make up for in ability to present a cogent argument and no matter how much they hate us the one thing the Tory back benchers are susceptible to is articulate,reasonable,(well maybe not reasonable)logical, persuasive argument,

    we have just sent 56 Angus Robertsons to Westminster
    GOD HELP THEM!
    ____________________________________________________________
    John from Fife (sic)
    “So do the SNP oppose this hugely altered Scotland Bill or support it.”

    If you had watched the news John you would have seen Nicola Sturgeon clearly state the proposed bill was unacceptable as it didn’t honour the Smith commission proposals and made it very clear the SoS having the power of veto was totally unacceptable
    but maybe you just missed that bit while you were compiling another attack on the SNP !

    Get off your high horse John we’re all on the same side here.
    or are we?
    __________________________________________________________
    Dan Huil @9.30
    “Who will quit first?: Blatter or Carmichael?”

    Neither!
    because neither has any sense of shame.
    ____________________________________________________________
    Art Hetty says
    “My point being they voted no.”

    There are no words Art.
    ___________________________________________________________
    Quinie frae Angus
    “However it is gratifying to see these first few maiden speeches by the SNP MPs – and the gracious reception to them by the most unexpected quarters – Jacob Rees-Mogg, FFS!”

    I found Rees Moggs comment patronizing in the extreme.
    _________________________________________________________
    Conan the Librarian
    “Posted stuff earlier which did not meet Stu’s censorbot values.”

    Know what you mean I used a phrase that contained “Janus faced”and because it contained the word anus it was moderated.
    🙁
    ___________________________________________________
    Paula Rose
    “Ooh lookie – ancient well kent wingies crawling out the woodworkie – hello Conan, hello QfA xxx”

    Quine frae Angus doesn’t “crawl out of the woodwork Paula Rose, she sashays in with the grace of a lady don’t ye hen? 🙂
    ________________________________________________________

    @ ME 🙂

    I was touched to see a story on the BBC this morning when a pensioner who was facing the prospect of celebrating her hundredth birthday alone as she has no living relatives had a party organised by the local council after her sad plight went viral online she also receive 16.000 birthday cards,
    aren’t people great? 🙂
    ______________________________________________________________
    One_Scot says
    “Is Ruth Davidson the most obnoxious person in politics.”

    Hmmm can I get back to you on that one? 😉

  230. Arabs for Independence says:

    Good article Stu and I hope the point you make is not lost by the good guys.

    Many years ago, whilst in The RAF I used to prepare documents for signature by the Deputy Chief Clerk which I suspected he never read. For a whole day he signed every report as ‘Deputy Dog’ and he was completely oblivious that he done so 🙂

  231. Macart says:

    I see Willie Rennie is still toeing the party line on the Smith commission. FFS even Labour and the unions have given these recommendations a hairy eyeball and no less than Lord Jack has been quoted as saying ‘go back and think again’, yet the party of Federalism considers this woeful offering just super.

    What part of landslide did Willie NOT understand?

    The reason the SNP have been the beneficiaries of this sea change in Scottish politics is because the policies and proposals of the three established parties did NOT meet what the Scottish electorate considered their needs and aspirations. Now I know Willie isn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer, but surely even he must know what comes next spring if the Lib Dem MSPs pointedly refuse to listen to the voting public?

    Naw, fuck it! Let him carry on as is, its probably for the best.

  232. Macart says:

    @Robert Peffers 2.40am

    Hidden depths Robert. 😀

    Well said.

  233. Tackety Beets says:

    Thanks again Robert P ,
    the radioactivity story is well worth repeating for a third time at a later date . It’s good to remind us how no amount of training etc can actually effect the human nature of some people.
    Many here inc me are experiencing senior moments ( Call me Dave ) and so on .

    Seating in WM ?
    Yesterday Mid afternoon, Radio 2 , Vannessa , had An interview with D Skinner and he was almost being pressured into play the MSM SNP BAD game . I found it amusing that no matter what Vannessa asked he stuck to the truth !
    That’s correct D Skinner does not have an issue .
    In fact on nearly all videos and pics of the last few days DS is on the same seat .

    Sorry , I-player is a minefield for me otherwise I would provide link .

  234. galamcennalath says:

    Macart says:

    “The reason the SNP have been the beneficiaries of this sea change in Scottish politics is because the policies and proposals of the three established parties did NOT meet what the Scottish electorate considered their needs and aspirations.”

    Exactly. What I can’t understand, is why do the Unionists seem so Hell bent on damaging their beloved Union at every turn.

    I’m glad that they are helping us along the road to Indy, but I still can’t see why!

  235. john king says:

    Macart says
    “Hidden depths Robert. ”

    Hidden depths!
    Bwahahahahaha
    the best ones are always unintended. 🙂

    Yea’ll notice I kept schtum Robert
    taps nose 😉

  236. Fiona says:

    @galamcennalath

    I think it is because they believe in homo economicus. It is literally impossible for them to imagine that people can aspire to anything more than money: and they believe that any increase in income/reduction in taxes, no matter how small, is a sufficient incentive. They don’t even have the wit to grasp a complex notion like “everyone has a price, but mine is higher than that”

  237. john king says:

    Lochside says @8.24pm
    “Yoda…you should change your moniker to ‘Skoda’. It rhymes and just like the motor, one day you’ll catch up with the rest of us.”

    Apparently they have really good rear window heaters so you can keep you hands warm while your pushing them. 🙂
    _______________________________________________________________
    “Trident probe finds nothing wrong.”

    Nothing to see here
    nothing to see here move along. 🙂
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSjK2Oqrgic
    ____________________________________________________________
    Tackety Beets @ 8.38
    “Jings , he was good . I feel there was a little admiration on the face of Bercow ?
    JB certainly looked impressed . Here’s hoping it continues .

    Fireworks awaits tho’ when this Topic / Scotland Bill turns up .”

    I really wish the cameras would pan more often to the (few if any) tory front benches sitting through those maiden speeches so we could watch their faceS fall, while they listen to an erudite and capable bunch full of righteous conviction, they are shitting themselves
    What the SNP lack in numbers they more than make up for in ability to present a cogent argument and no matter how much they hate us the one thing the Tory back benchers are susceptible to is articulate,reasonable,(well maybe not reasonable)logical, persuasive argument,

    we have just sent 56 Angus Robertsons to Westminster
    GOD HELP THEM!
    ____________________________________________________________
    John from Fife (sic)
    “So do the SNP oppose this hugely altered Scotland Bill or support it.”

    If you had watched the news John you would have seen Nicola Sturgeon clearly state the proposed bill was unacceptable as it didn’t honour the Smith commission proposals and made it very clear the SoS having the power of veto was totally unacceptable
    but maybe you just missed that bit while you were compiling another attack on the SNP !

    Get off your high horse John we’re all on the same side here.
    or are we?
    __________________________________________________________
    Dan Huil @9.30
    “Who will quit first?: Blatter or Carmichael?”

    Neither!
    because neither has any sense of shame.
    ____________________________________________________________
    Art Hetty says
    “My point being they voted no.”

    There are no words Art.
    ___________________________________________________________
    Quinie frae Angus
    “However it is gratifying to see these first few maiden speeches by the SNP MPs – and the gracious reception to them by the most unexpected quarters – Jacob Rees-Mogg, FFS!”

    I found Rees Moggs comment patronizing in the extreme.
    _________________________________________________________
    Conan the Librarian
    “Posted stuff earlier which did not meet Stu’s censorbot values.”

    Know what you mean I used a phrase that contained “Ja*** faced”and because it contained the word an** it was moderated.
    🙁
    I put the full words on the original post and it went into moderation,
    smart I am not 🙁
    ____________________________________________
    Paula Rose
    “Ooh lookie – ancient well kent wingies crawling out the woodworkie – hello Conan, hello QfA xxx”

    Quine frae Angus doesn’t “crawl out of the woodwork Paula Rose, she sashays in with the grace of a lady don’t ye hen? 🙂
    ________________________________________________________

    @ ME 🙂

    I was touched to see a story on the BBC this morning when a pensioner who was facing the prospect of celebrating her hundredth birthday alone as she has no living relatives had a party organised by the local council after her sad plight went viral online she also receive 16.000 birthday cards,
    aren’t people great? 🙂
    ______________________________________________________________
    One_Scot says
    “Is Ruth Davidson the most obnoxious person in politics.”

    Hmmm can I get back to you on that one? 😉

  238. Grouse Beater says:

    Wee Jimmy: Look out for the obligatory Nazi references!

    Sadly, (or is it pitifully?) our own ‘national’ composer James MacMillan indulges in the Nazi slur. His rationale for doing it has no logic nor reason other than hostility. Mind you, on the plus side he’s a good Catholic. [Satire]

  239. Macart says:

    @galamcennalath

    I suspect because they felt that last September was a cast iron mandate rather than a conditional mandate. The establishment parties may have felt that it should have been a return to business as usual vis a vis politics and the media. That they could effectively go back to their closed shop politics without any public input or participation.

    May 7th would have been a rude shock for many in discovering that the Scottish electorate had merely had its appetite whetted by the referendum. People are paying close attention now to every word, every release, every document and weighting the words very carefully. Dazzling with glitz and baffling with bullshit won’t wash with an electorate that has you under a microscope. Especially an electorate that has just discovered they’re the arbiters of where the power lies in their governance.

    If the Smith recommendations don’t come up to scratch in their eyes and its their expectations which matter, then next year I’m sure they’ll make their wishes clear to their representatives and most especially to the First Minister.

  240. FairFerfochen says:

    @Tackety Beets,

    Yep, I caught some of that R2 piece and you describe it accurately.

    Certainly a lot of condescension going on.

    The bit that stuck out for me was a text read out just before the news describing the SNP contingent as a blok of students barely out of thier kilts and into those respectable WM troosers.

    Going by the maiden speeches thus far I would suggest the texter is in for a bit of a shock in the coming weeks and days, that’s if they’re remotely interested in enlightening themselves, which I doubt.

    Sheesh, some folk get hold of a soundbite and rattle it off verbatim as if it were fact, whilst BBC Radio merrily propagtes said mythical soundbites and relays them back as if they were facts.

    Willful ignorance or shit stirring I’m not sure but the results’ the same, the istener ends up misinformed.

    Shame.

  241. Tackety Beets says:

    Aye , for days now , I’ve been meaning to post a wee comment .

    Is it just me ? AS , re-invigorated our old phrase ” Hud their feet t the fire ”

    Q How many times have you heard the phrase being used by ALL parties , commentators etc ?
    For me I feel I have heard it more times since sept 19th than in the last 20 years .

    The sub conscience moves in mysterious way . or is it that we are sliding quietly under the radar to lead the UK ?

  242. john king says:

    @Me
    “the best ones are always unintended. :)”

    Ah!
    it wasn’t unintended! ;(

    Im going Im going but the back o the bus is packed I wont get a seat. 🙁

  243. Macart says:

    @John King

    Heh, I rarely say stuff I don’t mean. 🙂

    So when I say the first post I look for in the morning is John’s summary, I mean that too. 😀

  244. jock mc X says:

    Stephen Gethins maiden speech,around 12 mins.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6wgvG5tJ7A

    and in case anyone missed it Tommy Shepperd,12 mins.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2HiTDf0rqk

  245. John Young says:

    O/T As an ex teacher I agree with much of this article and hope the SNP can update our failing education system
    http://tinyurl.com/nj74fn3

  246. Ken500 says:

    In five years the Demographics will have changed. Scotland will be Independent. Something to look forward. A new generation is born every minute. The rest is history.

  247. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    John Bercow.
    I remember when I was SNP election agent for our candidate (Jim Wright)in Motherwell South John Bercow was the Tory candidate.
    In time honoured Tory fashion as a rookie candidate this Jewish tennis coach from Ealing was being made to do his apprenticeship in an impossible seat.
    He was a friendly and amusing chap who told me that had he been Scottish he would certainly be in the SNP.

  248. Haggis Hunter says:

    I mind reading Labour’s 67 page doc. of extra powers for Scotland. They could have said it all in one page because all the waffle amounted to; Everything stays the same, but you get to raise taxes, and not lower them

  249. heedtracker says:

    John Young says:
    29 May, 2015 at 10:32 am
    O/T As an ex teacher I agree with much of this article and hope the SNP can update our failing education system

    It takes a lot more than curiculum change to improve schools John. But as a teacher you’ll know that.

    Anyway, we live in a land where the wealthy have their offspring educated by charities. Fair enough, private schools are wonderful with small classes, best of everything but still charities none the less, all of them subsidised by the majority of Scots who couldn’t even begin to earn a year’s private school fees.

    Such is life in teamGB

  250. galamcennalath says:

    Ken500 says:
    “In five years the Demographics will have changed. Scotland will be Independent. Something to look forward. A new generation is born every minute. The rest is history.”

    Three quarters of the oldest voted No, three quarters of the youngest voted Yes.

    I reckon 1% disappears from the No camp every year due to nature taking its course. And, 1% is added to Yes every year as younger people get the vote.

    That’s possibly a 2% swing per annum, even if nothing else changes.

    Five years could change 45:55 into 55:45 simply by demographics.

  251. Stoker says:

    Hugh says: @ 3:52 am
    “Correct me if I’m wrong, but if the SNP go in to a Scottish parliamentery election on a mandate of Independence and say, win every 1st MSP seat, do they not then have the right to say Scotland is Independent? i.e. unilateraly?. Surely the UK government wouldn’t have a leg to stand on?. I know it’s not impossible for the SNP to do it given the mood in Scotland of late.”

    In a word – Yes.
    And in my opinion it’s what we should now be working towards.
    Stuff this referendum route, we don’t need London’s agreement.

  252. Andrew McLean says:

    @ Dave McEwan Hill
    I don’t know what his religion has to do with it,? But he strikes me a fair and honest man, and I am sorry for his personal troubles. Please don’t think me a pedant, but given that religion is often used as a slur in some areas of Scotland?
    O/T I grew up in Coatbridge, once when I was quite young we had just moved house to a block of flats, on entering the block, a another child, much older than me grabbed me and said, what religion are you, actually that’s not what he said, but its my translation. I replied Jewish and shrugged him off and continued to climb the stairs, from the dimness below I heard, but are you a catholic or protestant Jew! True story!

  253. Fred says:

    @ jock mc X, many thanks for Tommy Sheppard’s speech, hope to see him in Holyrood some day. What a contrast between himself and the self-centred, self-opinionated & self-destructive attitude of Alister Carmichael.

  254. Robert Peffers says:

    @Andrew McLean says: 28 May, 2015 at 9:12 pm :

    ” … I did mention vaguely this in a post in the Herald but some gentleman with a OBE pestered me. So I desisted.”

    That was no gentleman, that was, “OBE No Can No Be”.

    Hilariously OBE was, “Honoured for his services to Rubbish”. I kid you not that was what he got honoured for – His learned paper written about waste management.

  255. John Young says:

    heedtracker says: 10.57am

    Fully agree, particularly about private schools with charity status.
    As Angry Salmond might say “In an independent Scotland there will be no private schools, no religious schools, no religion in schools just well funded schools fully accountable to their local communities delivering a National curriculum.”

  256. Glamaig says:

    Five years could change 45:55 into 55:45 simply by demographics.

    My sums came out at 16 years to go from 55:44 to 50:50. I assumed the folk we are losing are 60% no and the young folk moving up are 60% yes. Theres alot of assumptions in there but the direction of travel is clear.

    I would rather see more folk being persuaded from no to yes rather than just attrition.

    I get a strange feeling of guilt just doing the sums as it feels a bit morbid btw.

  257. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “do they not then have the right to say Scotland is Independent? i.e. unilateraly?”

    Yes, if they’re completely insane. UDI is a route to madness and chaos.

  258. Andrew McLean says:

    galamcennalath says:
    29 May, 2015 at 10:57 am
    Ken500 says:
    “In five years the Demographics will have changed.

    But won’t the 1% be replaced as the population ages?

  259. Stoker says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell wrote:
    “UDI is a route to madness and chaos.”

    Why so?
    Have you previously done any articles on this subject?

  260. heedtracker says:

    John Young says:
    29 May, 2015 at 11:33 am
    heedtracker says: 10.57am

    Fully agree, particularly about private schools with charity status.
    As Angry Salmond might say

    As an ex teacher John, you don’t know Angry Salmond doesn’t exist?

    F- John. Must try harder.

  261. Calgacus says:

    @Rev.Stu.

    With respect Rev, what we have now is not order and sanity.

    At the end of the day we have to take our freedom because Westminster sure as hell aren’t going to give it to us.

  262. Chic McGregor says:

    They will Calgacus, because they know just as well that UDI is the worst scenario.

    However, that option does have to be real and present.

  263. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    @Andrew McLean

    There is no going back once your eyes have been opened.

    Once a Yesser – always a Yesser.

    2% swing per year – This will lead to a win in indyref2 by 2020.

    Onwards and Upwards.

  264. Rock says:

    One_Scot,

    “Is Ruth Davidson the most obnoxious person in politics.”

    This is what I had posted on the 13th:

    “Ruth Davidson is the most disgusting and nastiest politician in Scotland in my view.”



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