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Faith is always blind

Posted on October 13, 2019 by

The first novel I remember reading is “The Hitch-Hiker’s Guide To The Galaxy”, shortly after it came out in 1979. I was 12, and it had a huge and lasting effect on me – it was the first thing that made me want to be a writer, and both Adams’ writing style and the worldview it deftly illustrated have been lifelong influences.

Almost every line in the book is great, but this one always stuck with me:

And so to the last of the results from our current poll.

Finding out what SNP voters think, with the aim of understanding how a Yes vote might be won, has provoked a frankly enormous outpouring of rage over the past week from SNP members, chiefly (one can only assume) because it’s revealed a considerable amount of unhappiness from voters about the party’s current direction in several areas.

But none nearly as big as this one:

Just SEVEN percent of SNP voters (and just SIX percent of those who actually want independence) are happy with the party’s policy of sticking exclusively to “Plan A” – asking Westminster over and over for permission to hold a second referendum until at some point it inexplicably caves in.

But as the annual autumn conference begins in Aberdeen today, Nicola Sturgeon has unequivocally committed the party to this plan, and in this morning’s papers the FM lambasts those calling for a fallback plan to force the UK government to grant a new vote as “opponents” falling for a “Unionist trap”.

The Sunday Times, meanwhile, has unveiled a new Panelbase poll showing support for independence at 50/50 – the highest ever recorded by the company – or a Yes lead of 54-46 when compared to a no-deal Brexit.

It also carries analysis from Prof. Sir John Curtice unambiguously identifying that the increase in Yes support is Brexit-driven.

Yet in addition to sticking solely to Plan A – which has singularly failed to work for the last two and a half years, with the UK government saying “Now is not the time” as doggedly as ever – it remains SNP policy to stop Brexit altogether, not only against the wishes of the party’s own supporters and invalidating the 2016 electoral mandate for a second indyref, but also destroying the main and obvious reason that support for independence is now finally creeping towards a fragile majority.

Attempts to point out these undeniable facts this week have been…challenging.

On the Andrew Marr Show this morning, the First Minister explicitly and unequivocally denied having ever asked the UK government for a Section 30 order, which came as a surprise to a great many people who’d been very much given the impression – by her – that she did just that in March 2017.

We do not recall the Scottish Government issuing any press statements in March 2017 protesting at the media’s uniform presentation of the letter as a “formal request” for a Section 30 and clarifying its nature as being something else. They were entirely happy for it to be regarded as such, but now appear to be rewriting history to claim that it was merely some sort of casual general enquiry.

Nicola Sturgeon also told Andrew Marr this morning that she expected to submit a second/first ever formal Section 30 request to the UK government within the next few weeks, and pointed out that SNP policy had always been to wait until the outcome of Brexit was clear before taking such action.

It seems, how shall we put this, optimistic to imagine that final Brexit clarity will have been achieved by some time in November.

About an hour after the FM’s interview, SNP MP Kirsty Blackman told Gordon Brewer on Sunday Politics Scotland that SNP policy was still for a second Brexit referendum following a general election, though she refused to be drawn on whether the party’s MPs would actually vote for either of those things at the special sitting of the Commons this coming Saturday.

Labour’s stated policy, were they to defy all the polls and somehow win that election, is to restart negotiations with the EU and magically come up with some sort of new deal, that they might or might not support in the subsequent referendum.

We don’t know how long they plan to spend on those negotiations, but it seems, with the best will in the world, absolutely absurd to imagine that a general election could be triggered, called, held, deliver a conclusive result, then lead to the renegotiations, the calling, the debating the terms of, the campaigning in and the holding of a second EU referendum in anything under, let’s say, a year at a minimum.

That takes us to late 2020 before we could even start thinking about a second indyref, and the Electoral Commission have stated that they’d want the enabling legislation passed at least nine months before the vote, which would be summer 2021. But the SNP are still insisting that it would be actually held before the end of next year.

All of which also assumes that the UK government would have become more likely to grant an indyref that polls suggest they would lose than they have been for the last 30 months to grant one that polls have said they’d win.

We’re really sorry, folks, but that’s a crass insult to your intelligence.

Our Twitter timeline and Facebook page have been an avalanche of angry SNP fans dutifully parroting the line that a Section 30 order has in fact never been requested, we all just imagined it, and the party has an ingenious secret plan up its sleeve to ensure a referendum by next year that it simply can’t reveal at this stage because it would enable Unionists to sabotage it or something.

Apparently this secret plan has been shared with random Twitter users, but not with the scores of the party’s MPs, MSPs, councillors and even ministers who tell us that it doesn’t exist. We really hope it comes out soon. Ideally about eighteen months ago.

And doubtless this post will simply further fuel the fire of all the tinfoil-hatters calling us “traitors”, “infiltrators” and “Yoon plants” this week. It’s been getting so bad that we’ve barely managed to bring ourselves to cash all the huge MI5 salary cheques. But the 80% of SNP voters who we now know aren’t buying Plan A are either on the secret services’ payroll too, or they’re playing a REALLY long sleeper game.

Proof denies faith, readers. Just keep believing, don’t ask any awkward questions, and we’re sure it’ll all be fine.

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    294 to “Faith is always blind”

    1. Ahundredthidiot says:

      stick that in yer pipe and smoke it

    2. Joe says:

      Facts? Since when did they matter?

      Just wait til the truths about the EU start to become impossible to ignore.

      No-one is being well served by people being willfully ignorant. Too much emoting and not enough thinking

    3. John Thomson says:

      Vote SNP 1 WINGS 2 simples

    4. Terry callachan says:

      So , having read all this what comes to mind is this question

      So what do you think SNP should do ?

      You’ve said what you think they are doing and you have criticised their plan

      But what do you say they should be doing that they are not doing ?

    5. Effijy says:

      O\T. Congratulations to Japan on their victory over Scotland’s rugby team.

      I’m always behind any Scotland team but today it’s only sporting to admit that the
      Japanese were the hungrier and has superior handling throughout.

      Too many unforced handling issues wasting golden opportunities today.

      We live, we learn, we compete and we improve!

    6. Lollysmum says:

      I’m with John Thomson above Vote SNP1 Wings2 You know it makes sense 🙂

    7. Bob Mack says:

      I fear we have missed the bus__this time.
      Indy will survive. Im sorry to say the SNP had taken their eye off the ball and became embroiled in the Westminster agenda. Thats only my view, and you may well disagree.Fine.

      We have reduced ourselves to hoping for secret plans to rescue our ambition. Evefybody seems to know there is one but it too complex and secret to be revealed in case its beaten by Unionists. Is that what we are relying on?

      Does it involve putting underpants on your head and two pencils in your nose?

    8. Mist001 says:

      If the SNP are committed to independence (I don’t think they are) and consider themselves to be a serious political party, then they have to start making big decisions. Scotland has been virtually decimated by unionist policies over the past years and it’s being openly acknowledged in this mornings media that Scotland is being ignored. This is becoming accepted fact.

      So, they need to make a decision which is for the greater good of Scotland which is declaring independence full stop. Lot’s of people won’t like it and will object but you can’t please everyone but it has to be done, even if it’s just for saving Scotland from itself (which wouldn’t be too far off the mark).

      The problem is that Sturgeon will never do this, so a change of leadership is required. Sturgeon, Murrell, Blackford all have to go. Recall the SNP from Westminster and make a UDI.

      The shit will hit the fan but who said independence would be easy?

    9. Patsy Millar says:

      I’m a member of the SNP (joined in a fit of euphoria on the night of the 2015 GE) and will probably stay a member, but everything you have been saying is much closer to my way of thinking than what is coming from the SNP hierarchy. I think the likelihood is that nothing will be forthcoming until after the next Scottish Parliament elections when I will vote SNP with any Wings candidate as my second choice. I hope by then you will still feel up to fielding candidates.

    10. dadsarmy says:

      Q18 implies at least on more request to come in the futre, and we haven’t had that yet. So – it’s 49% in favour of asking for that section 30 order at least one more time

      Which is precisely Plan A as announced so far. Note: Plan A CAN include the second option.

    11. Harry mcaye says:

      Lollysmum – I think it’s going to come down to that, a Wings party for the next Holyrood election (for the list vote, and only in certain areas!) I can’t now see any way that we’ll have indyref2 by the end of 2020.

    12. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “So , having read all this what comes to mind is this question

      So what do you think SNP should do ?”

      Jesus suffering Christ, HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION? You post about 50 comments on every bloody post on this site, is it TOO much to hope you might occasionally READ some of the posts first?

    13. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Q18 implies at least on more request to come in the futre, and we haven’t had that yet. “

      Oh ffs. This is going to be a loooooooong day.

      “Note: Plan A CAN include the second option.”

      No it can’t. Nicola Sturgeon has EXPRESSLY ruled out the second option on numerous occasions.

    14. Jock McDonnell says:

      Hey, Aberdeen, you’re in the news today because the SNP are in town. Not the yoons, the SNP, the party that puts Scotland first.
      Remember that next time we have any sort of public vote.

      And you, Edinburgh .. the pretendy Capital, time to grow up.

    15. liz says:

      It’s the weasel legal words of ‘to begin early discussions….’ which I hate.

      It’s dishonest as she would have known most people would have taken that as requesting an S30 with her sitting on the couch with a pen in her hand.

      It makes her appear to be playing with words.

      Like those charlatans who say, I have not SEEN any evidence….

    16. dadsarmy says:

      That 49%, by the way, excluding don’t knows, works out at 57% excluding don’t knows – a clear majority of the SNP voters behind the current SNP policy.

    17. Helen Yates says:

      There are none so blind as those who will not see.

    18. Neil Mackenzie says:

      The Yoon plant is the idea that the Section 30 order is “permission” and you’ve fallen for it, hook line and sinker, just like you and everyone else were meant to. It’s properly tragic seeing the situation framed by you in this way.

      The Section 30 order isn’t permission. It’s protocol and it’s compulsory. The UK government has a legal duty to issue the Section 30 order in due course. That’s the constitutional procedure available in this country to comply with the international law which requires respect for the right to self-determination of peoples. In 2017, Spain didn’t have that in place. We do. We’ve had it since 2012. We’ve done it once and that’s called a legal and constitutional precedent.

    19. dadsarmy says:

      Oh ffs. This is going to be a loooooooong day.

      Sorry about that, crumbs in my keyboard. That should have read:

      “Q18 implies at least one more request to come in the future, and we haven’t had that yet.”

    20. Davie Oga says:

      Brexit clarity will not be achieved for years if not decades. Three years has gone into only a possible withdrawal agreement.

      “On the Andrew Marr Show this morning, the First Minister explicitly and unequivocally denied having ever asked the UK government for a Section 30 order, which came as a surprise to a great many people who’d been very much given the impression – by her – that she did just that in March 2017”

      Shameless, but not her fault if she identifies as someone who never requested a section 30 order.

    21. dadsarmy says:

      @liz
      Yes, that’s arguable, same as May’s “now is not the time”. You say weasel, I say RealPolitik. Or at least “politics”.

      A request for early talks was NOT a formal request for a S30 itself, and now is not the time was NOT a refusal of the S30 itself – just the “early talks”.

      From the letter, the appropriate bit to highlight is this:

      I am therefore writing to begin early discussions between our governments . . .

    22. Bob Mack says:

      @Neil McKenzie

      The Rev isnt seeking permission. The SNP are.

    23. Republicofscotland says:

      So there’s not enough time to conclude (initially) Brexit, have a GE, and hold a second indyref before late 2020.

      Plus there’s the minor obstacle of Westminster actually granting a S30 order, which as you say Rev, is a non-starter.

      If the indyref doesn’t materialise late 2020, then next up will be the May 2021 Scottish elections, so it would need to be post that, and we’d still need to clear the S30 hurdle.

      I wonder is Sturgeon talking the short game, but actually intent on playing the long game?

    24. Och, Stu, everybody loves trier.

      ‘Continue with the current position of asking the UK Government’s permission and hoping it agrees’.

      Loaded? Moi?

      The SNP Government has skin in the Brexit game.

      If only to exert pressure at WM when the Brexit No Deal unravels.

      I know of no one who wants England to suffer.

      There will be a S30, when the SNP can use a confidence and supply arrangement with the next gang of English MPs trying to form a Government in November/December to demand it.
      You guys are big on demanding a Plan B.
      What’s your version?

      A Scottish Republican Army Storming Partick P O and declaring Independence in Merkland Street?

      You are being deliberately controversial and divisive; an ego trip, IMHO.

      The SNP are running a country, not half badly, and getting flak from all sides.

      Get a grip, and give these polls a rest, will you?

    25. Kenny says:

      There is no discussion of independence on the agenda at Conference this weekend. The party banners are about stopping Brexit, not respecting democracy in both Scotland AND England by letting them leave the EU and letting us decide not to. I’m genuinely not sure the SNP (leadership) wants independence at all any more.

    26. Republicofscotland says:

      “The problem is that Sturgeon will never do this, so a change of leadership is required. Sturgeon, Murrell, Blackford all have to go. Recall the SNP from Westminster and make a UDI.”

      “The shit will hit the fan but who said independence would be easy?”

      Sounds easy lets do it, oh but wait, they have the British armed forces to stop UDI, we have Greyfriars Bobby and the new Forth crossing. We’re not Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe, which is thousands of miles away we’re right next door, with British army bases in Scotland.

    27. Bob Mack says:

      If you want to read the motion for hourself that was voted on in March 2017 it was SSM 04710. Tabled by the Greens.

      It is explicit re content and actions To open discussions on section 30 order.

    28. Mist001 says:

      @ Republicofscotland

      What’s the alternative?

    29. dadsarmy says:

      and therefore mandates the Scottish Government to take forward discussions with the UK Government on the details of an order under section 30

      to take forward discussions

      https://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/28877.aspx?SearchType=Advance&ReferenceNumbers=S5M-04710

      from Sturgeon’s letter:

      I am therefore writing to begin early discussions between our governments to agree an Order under section 30

      to begin early discussions

      https://www.snp.org/nicola-sturgeon-s-section-30-letter-to-theresa-may/

      So there you go, it’s all as clear as mud, with plenty of wriggle room for a whole rugby park of 30 players and officials and loads of people on the bench waiting their turn to join the fray. Good luck Japan! I think I’ll adopt them 🙂

    30. Bob Mack says:

      @Dadsarmy,

      So what happened?

    31. Shug says:

      Let brexit bite

    32. HandandShrimp says:

      I don’t think there is any doubt that the SNP leadership are aware of how the now 50% or more are leaning on independence. MPs and MSPs speak to the members and voters. Something has to give over the next few months and we have a vote by Sept 2020 or we enter dangerous and potentially divisive waters in the run up to May 2021. In between we may have an election or a second EU referendum (I’m no longer sure what the feck is happening…possibly a united Ireland in all but name too).

    33. Daisy Walker says:

      Terry callachan says:
      13 October, 2019 at 1:57 pm
      So , having read all this what comes to mind is this question

      So what do you think SNP should do ?

      Well, since you ask,

      Robin McAlpine with whom I do not alway agree, makes a very good point – you don’t win people over during a referendum – there is a lot of ground that needs to be covered at other times (which is now… and the last 4 years).

      That ground is the real details of our economy, our SNHS (which should be formally re-branded and its history taught in every school in the land)

      Our Constitution and our history.

      Our landmass and water wealth,

      As an example.

      They should understand their strengths and weaknesses.

      We have a wealth in terms of numbers of people willing, ready, clued up and practiced at having the conversations, putting the leaflets through the door and doing the canvassing – this is the gold standard.

      Our weakness is the mass media against us – the above counters that (when it is coordinated, when it has a purpose, a script, an agenda and leadership).

      And in order to assist countering the likes of the BBC, and deliver the above information we should always utilise pictorial content type info graphs – billboards are a must, T shirts, Car bumper stickers, someone should be sent to find and order up the projector that Led By Donkeys has been using. And every SNP office window should have posters up – and a TV screen displaying info graphs, House of Commons exchanges (with subtitles) playing 24/7 – no-one should be able to pass by an SNP office and not absorb some information about Scotland.

      Do that, do that now, do that every day, do it as a matter of course, do it as a special occasion, do that and the ground is covered.

      Do that so that the next GERS anniversary they will be laughed out of town.

      Do that so that every nurse in Scotland knows how much we value them, and their workplace and we’ve got their backs.

      Do that so that regardless of Plan A, Plan B, Plan on the back of an envelope, every single Yesser in the country and every single yoon knows that the ground is being covered and the lies have nowhere to thrive.

      And then, while we are doing this… think about how the British Establishment would go about spiking the SNP (our only route to delivering Indy). How?

      They have 3 ways: Bribe, Corrupt or Threaten. I think the first 2 are unlikely. That leaves the 3rd, and for that, anyone with loved ones is vulnerable.

      I never want to find the evidence of the last, because to do so, would be to endanger. And I do not want leaders in charge who would be willing to sacrifice loved ones for ultimately a political outcome.

      So, if you believe the above could happen, and may well have happened, the next option is to become the movement with no leader – and go round them.

      SNP members should insist on colours being pinned to the mast – so that there is no hiding place for unelectable policies- and then they should de-select those whose policies they do not support.

      And, that could very well be NS.

    34. dadsarmy says:

      “Note: Plan A CAN include the second option.”

      No it can’t. Nicola Sturgeon has EXPRESSLY ruled out the second option on numerous occasions.

      Just saw that bit, yes you’re right.

      Still leaves it at 57% including the DKs for formally asking for a Section 30 order one more time (at least) / the first time, whichever is believed, and also legislating for a 2nd Ref as is happening – the two are NOT mutually exclusive. If I had to choose only one, I’d go for the 42% one; the S30 is kind of implied by what Stugeon says, as, basically, a minor detail (as far as I’m concerned).

      Maybe that is also covered by the “something else”.

    35. robertknight says:

      I suspect that all the visits to Brussels in the past three years have amounted to this…

      “Certainly First Minister, your country can indeed join the EU if it votes for Independence from the UK, but it must do so using the method which was adopted in 2014.”

      It’s neither Edinburgh nor London insisting upon IndyRef2 being the only road to freedom, but Brussels.

      Therein lies the FM’s problem – the EU have effectively painted her into a corner…

      No IndyRef2… No EU membership.

      Simples!

    36. dadsarmy says:

      @Bob Mack “So what happened?

      Too many handling errors, and Japan were very fast and ferocious. But 28-21 is a respectable score.

      Anyways, as far as the main topic is concerned, all these things are open to different interpretations, all are possible, yours, mine, the Rev’s, Sturgeon’s, XYZ’s, and that’s very likely the point of the whole thing. Nobody knows.

    37. robertknight says:

      I should have added…

      For “Brussels”, read Madrid.

    38. Republicofscotland says:

      “What’s the alternative?”

      Well it can’t be UDI Westminster would never allow it, remember they have the armed forces would the EU or UN take our side?

      Since the Rev has pointed out that there’s not enough time to hold a indyref between now and late 2020 due to initially concluding Brexit a more than likely GE and not much chance of the granting of a S30 order.

      I can only suggest what others have suggested use the up and coming GE as a indyref if Westminster says now is not the time when asked over the next few weeks.

      As the Rev’s poll question above shows 40 odd percent would go for holding a indyref if Westminster refuses to play ball on the S30 order.

      As you rightly add though Sturgeon and some of the other SNP hierarchy won’t go for it. A wild shot might be they have a Plan B, but are playing it very close to their chests, I do hope so.

      As for removing Sturgeon and Murrell, that’s very unlikely to happen.

    39. Bob Mack says:

      Chris McElney booed at conference for suggesting discussion on P!an B ?

      Must be more top secret than I tnought

    40. June Maxwell says:

      I have a slight problem with the heaps of advice we ‘rebels’ are attracting for daring to criticise SNP (in)action. They reason we’re given is that we’re playing into the hands of the pesky Unionists who will use it as fodder for their subsequent attacks. My disquiet rests on the fact that there’s not a shred of evidence to back up these cultural myths and prove that in-house squabbles helps opponents or loses elections. In fact, engaging, even critically is said to enliven voters, give them more purpose than simply marking a cross every few years. And since it will be not only SNP we need to secure Indy but a pro Indy government of whatever party stripes, I trust that WoS and others (me included) will continue to hold any and all politicians to account, point out their follies and yell ‘foul’ when needed.
      I love the wee Wings emblem on the Truth table. ?

    41. Ahundredthidiot says:

      dadsarmy

      maybe reread the options…..

    42. Ian McCubbin says:

      Many of us a lobbying within the party for a plan b approach.
      I have repeatedly said that plan won’t work because a section 30 is a law to dissolve Holyrood.
      Alex Salmond just used it cleverly to persuade Cameron to grantva referendum.
      No Tory government will ever again do this.
      The 1997 SNP manifesto states the only clear way to Independence. This is a majority of Independence Party, SNP and or Greens in Westminster.

    43. Mochachoca says:

      A “formal request for a Section 30” and a “formal request to open talks on a Section 30 order” isn’t quite the same thing.

      It’s worth remembering that the mandate for indyref2 doesn’t actually exist until we leave the EU. Given the events of the past three years that’s not quite a certainty.

      Seems to me that only once (or if) brexit happens a formal S30 request will be made. If it’s agreed then Plan A proceeds. If it’s refused for whatever reason then that can be challenged, but any legal challenge will require the mandate to be watertight.

    44. Dr Jim says:

      If people don’t believe what it says in the Daily Mail
      why believe what interested parties say on the anonymous *influential* internet or from big Tam doon the pub because he’s got a pal who knows

      The exploitation of the uninformed, some because they don’t wish to be informed and some who you could inform all day long but either choose not to remember or can’t remember, and the shit stirrers who misinform just because they like it

      The internet has enabled it all, we see our children arguing over who insulted them last or most or who bullied them on the internet some to such a degree that their mental health suffers from it but instead of learning from that, grown adults do the same thing and employ the same methods against other adults, and they have no shame for doing it because even when they’re wrong they still have to win no matter the cost to others, and those cowards just sicken me

    45. Bob Mack says:

      @Mochachoca,

      So will the next letter be a demand for a section 30,or for talks about a section 30, using another two and a half years up of precious time ?

    46. Bob Mack says:

      @Dr Jim

      Rather cryptic.Be spdcific if your unhappy about something.

    47. defo says:

      Jack C
      “Get a grip, and give these polls a rest, will you?”

      The epitome of blind faith.

      There’s a train hurtling down the track towards us, but look away and all will be fine.

    48. Colin Alexander says:

      “We have to demonstrate majority support for independence in a process that is legal and legitimate and that crucially – not just domestically in the UK but internationally and in Europe in particular – will be accepted”.

      Says Nicola Sturgeon.

      Legal = law. What law? Whose law? The constitutional law of the UK State?

      What “the law” says is this: “That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof and forever after be United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain”.

      According to “the law” there is no legal method of dissolving the Union; its forever. Of course, that is total mince: nothing is “forever”.

      What Nicola Sturgeon is effectively saying is this: You only have the right to decide whether you want to be independent, when UK Parliament gives you that permission. You can only become independent when given permission to be independent by the UK state. You can only become independent when given Royal Assent by the Crown (of the Imperial Majesty of the Kingdom of the United Kingdom).

      As for Europe, read that as the EU. Read that for: Scotland can only become independent when it is approved by the British Empire and all the governments of Europe and the EU.

      In the eyes of Nicola Sturgeon Scotland is not Catalonia. Catalonia could only become independent with the permission of the Kingdom of Spain.

      In Nicola’s eyes Scotland needs approval of the British Empire and europe and whoever else she thinks needs to approve Scottish independence.

      Nicola is wrong. Challenging Nicola and the SNP on this is not being a unionist or falling for a unionist trap, it’s being a sovereign people standing up for their sovereignty.

      Sovereign Scotland needs permission from no others.

      I would argue that that is the law of Scotland. It’s been the law since before the time of Robert The Bruce. It was the law in 1689. It’s the law now.

      Nicola and the SNP should obey Scots Law, not British Empire law.

    49. dadsarmy says:

      @Republicofscotland
      As the Rev’s poll question above shows 40 odd percent would go for holding a indyref if Westminster refuses to play ball on the S30 order.

      As you rightly add though Sturgeon and some of the other SNP hierarchy won’t go for it.

      Well first I don’t think that’s what the Rev said, and second it’s certainly NOT what Sturgeon and Co are saying they won’t go for; in fact they’re putting through The Referendums (Scotland) Bill right now, and it’s been ruled by the PO as within competence. Which emans it’s almost certain to gain Royal Assent when passed, at the end of the 28 days anyone else has to challenge it. Worth reading the Bill, for what it says about holding referendums.

      Personally I’d prefer that Bill to have been rushed through Hilyrood as an emergency bill, but hopefully Russell and Sturgeon know what they’re doing …

    50. dadsarmy says:

      @Bob Mack
      Remember the point of this website? NOT to believe what’s in the Daily Mail, Express, BBC?

      So why are so many taking the MSM interpretation on what’s happening, rather than using their own noddles?

    51. carjamtic says:

      The crucial event in the Industrial Revolution, which some academics think provided a material guarantee of the increased liberty, sought in the political revolutions of the same time (in the United States and France) rarely gets mentioned in context to today’s situation in Scotland.

      Born of machine-builders craft and scientific probing, James Watt’s steam engine provided mankind with an enormous increase in inanimate power (and indirectly, the freeing of slave workers on a Global scale).

      Watt (the son of a master carpenter and shipwright in Greenock) gave the world a multi purpose, economical steam engine that represented the cheapest form of power (except for wind and water) that kick-started the Industrial Revolution.

      A similar scenario presents itself to Scotland today in the form of wind and water eco energy and as we all already know,Time,Technolgy and Global Warming wait for no man/woman.

      Do not listen to the doom mongers (who put dead bird feathers in their caps and tell you it’s macaroni) their intention is to acquire Scotland’s “new energy” for themselves.

      And no matter what anyone else may tell you, time really is of the essence, Scotland must use it or lose it and be in no doubt that plans are already being put in place by Westminster to dilute Scotland’s wealth (akin to a slowly melting ice cube in whisky).

      Perhaps,Burns said it best “Cie me a spark o’ nature’s fire, that’s a the learning I desire” a sentiment, surely all of Scotland can embrace….in this current emergency climate.

    52. kapelmeister says:

      There are unionist parties and unionist supporters in Scotland but unionism is nevertheless an expired force which no longer possesses the prestige to prevail.

    53. Mochachoca says:

      @Bob Mack…
      No point it requesting it until we are actually out of the EU.

    54. dadsarmy says:

      Legal = law. What law? Whose law?

      Exactly. Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings …

      … anyway, back to the (other) rugby (Wales). But afore I go.

      Interesting poll, and it has to be said that to get an idea of what’s going on isn’t easy to format questions for. This isn’t perfect, but it has established its primary purpose – that a pro-indy party on the list would have a fair chance of being voted for if the SNP betray their mandate and we get no Indy Ref before 2021.

      And that question was the only way of doing it, rather than the pathetically silly and inapporopriate choice of a list of 10 or whatever political parties demanded – elsewhere. It was about SNP or not SNP – not even about Green, for the list. And that was and is correct.

      And this 50% Devil’s Advocate is out of here.

      Next!

    55. Cubby says:

      Well after the Rugby. I decided I couldn’t face another Counsel of despair so I thought I’ll watch this movie on Channel 5 called the Fifth Element. I have given up on it – it makes no sense at all – a lot of mince.

      I read this post – deja vu.

    56. Athanasius says:

      Never thought much of Douglas Adams.

    57. Muscleguy says:

      Yup my faith is in the SNP is eroding, not just this endless can kicking down the road but the insults to my intelligence added to the insult of GRA on women.

      My vote is not some slavish thing. I have for a while now considered myself a floating Yes voter. SNP fanbois like Mr Kelly over on scotgoespop rub me up the wrong way. I have a brain and I retain the right to use it.

      I used to be religious in my youth but my interest in studying science eroded my faith until it was all gone and I realised I was an atheist and I still am. That lesson is still with me. In my first postdoc position I and my fellows were schooled in assessing evidence by one of the best. I passed through that crucible a better scientist.

      At least twice now emails purporting to be from the First Minister have hit my inbox exhoritng me to have faith. I have responde each time politely but firmly and not got the dignity fo a reply. It seems the SNP have become like the Yoon parties, they just want us to go back to being compliant farm animals happy to be fed bullshit, providing it was SNP bullshit.

      Sorry but animals who try and claim they are more equal than the rest of us are just like the tribal monkeys in No10 and Whitehall now. It may well be that the SNP have been in power too long and it has made them arrogant and too comfortable with power.

      They seem just to want the old days back and the hard work of winning an indyref and building iScotland/Caesar! again is just too much difficult work for them. Time was I would have urged folk to vote Green instead as Patrick Harvie has been much more gung ho for Indy than Nicola Sturgeon but the Greens are hotter for GRA.

      I’m sorry Rev but a Wings party may be needed but not for what you think but to act as a renewed vehicle for Independence.

    58. Muscleguy says:

      Also we must remember the Ancient Greek dictum: those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad. GRA looks like the death madness of SNP and Greens. Add in the SNP wish to cancel Brexit against the democratic wishes of English voters without recognising it would be just like Westminster riding roughshod over us.

      Truly our leaders have become mad, they should perhaps be put down.

    59. Josef Ó Luain says:

      An unfortunate and corrosive despair with the the post-Indyref SNP leadership is well established in the minds of many Independence supporters. SNP Members (many of whom have never chapped-a-door canvassing or been near a local Branch meeting) should never forget that they are but one of many interested groupings within the greater Independence movement.

    60. Alex Monaghan says:

      You’re either missing the point or being wilfully obtuse, Stu. It’s like currency, and many other things. Of course there will be (and already is) a Plan B, and a Plan C. The point is we don;t want to allow them to be used as a distraction until Plan A has been exhausted – which, as several bright readers have pointed out, requires at least one more attempt to obtain a Section 30 order.

    61. SilverDarling says:

      @DrJim

      Maybe they will believe internet anonymous people because it resonates with what they experience in their daily life?

      What is said in the Daily Mail is so far from what we observe yet is spouted as truth when it is reviewed on the BBC or discussed in talking head shows so it is easy to dismiss it.

      However, when you are being battered by your own side and told that you are stupid , uninformed and of little faith, that all will be well despite what you see happening in front of you, it is hard to keep quiet.

      For a long time here btl, the dominant commentary has not been reflective of what I or many of my Indy supporting acquaintances discuss or decide is important for us. The Rev’s poll has shown we are not alone in our disquiet but when we try to voice that here we are called all sorts of names , the most recent being the risible yoof ‘concern troll’ .

      Informing should not be ‘I am telling you so you must believe this’ but ‘here is the information, see for yourself’. Unfortunately a lot of the stuff we get from the SNP membership here reads like a media release rather than a genuine defence with facts.

    62. Bob Mack says:

      @Dadsarmy

      I think people mAke up their own mind Personally I have not read a newspaper since 2016.

      Good spin though.

    63. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Only 4 days left for this crowdfunder and it’s only 47% funded…

      https://indylive.radio/support-indylive/

    64. It seems as you only follow your own highly biased polls.

    65. Robert Louis says:

      Oh man, I am sick and tired of seeing utter noinsense like this,

      “It’s worth remembering that the mandate for indyref2 doesn’t actually exist until we leave the EU.”

      HERE is what the SNP manifesto actually said;

      “The Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum…if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out the EU against our will.”

      So, there are two clear separate criteria.

      1. a significant and material change in circumstances since those in 2014. I think it is freaking obvious that is the case now.

      2. ‘such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against its will’. You will see it specifies not that Scotland HAS been taken out of the EU, instead it specifies that ‘Scotland IS being taken out of the EU’.

      Both crioteria are easily met right now, TODAY, with bells on. It is utter nonsense and blatant political spin to try to somehow pretend that THAT specific commitment in the SNP manifesto has not been met.

      Scotland is about to be forcibly removed from the EU and Scots stripped of their EU citizenship and freedom of movement within a couple of weeks completely against their clearl wishes, and STILL some in the SNP seem not to give a sh*t. They say, ‘ahh, yes, but once brexit happens, and people see how awful it is, they will demand independence’. I totally disagree. Once brexit has happened, people will be terrified of further change. In addition, the Westminster government will go into full Britannia mode, offering all kinds of ‘bribes’ in trade negotiations, in order to keep Scotland from choosing independence.

      I just despair at the current SNP strategy. I have gone from conference attendee, to not even bothering to listen to any of the speeches anymore, and have given up membership.

      Playing by Westminster’s rules will NEVER,EVER get us independence. Over three hundred years of history makes that pretty freaking obvious, to even the most cognitively challenged among us.

    66. defo says:

      13 October, 2019 at 3:57 pm

      Jack C
      “Get a grip, and give these polls a rest, will you?”

      The epitome of blind faith.

      There’s a train hurtling down the track towards us, but look away and all will be fine.”

      I’m listening to Tommy Sheppard and Deirdre Brock at Conference on tackling drug deaths and stopping the British MOD using Scotland as a dumping ground for weapons and nuclear waste.
      Two remarkable Scots MPs in my view. They live and work tirelessly in the Real world.

      On here the chatter is about a mythical plan B.

      Tommy and Deirdre are not looking the other way in blind faith.
      They are tackling Scotland’s challenges head on.

      Give me peace, defo.

      I have never relied on blind faith in my puff.

      WE go now, through the ballot box.

      Come on,defo, what’s Plan B?

      Make Independence a single issue manifesto in the imminent UKGE and if 50% + 1 of the electorate vote SNP, then that’s it: Instant Independence?

      Nonsense on a unicycle of course.

      Single issue manifesto is voting ‘blind’ and will never convince the Don’t Knows and waverers.

      Any GE Party Manifesto must cover all aspects of the electorate’s life; Health, Finances, Foreign Policy, Law and Order and other little pesky details which voters look for when making a decision on whom to elect.

      To stand as a ‘single issue party’ would be electoral suicide.

      The polling seems to indicate that the SNP may win 50 plus seats in a FPTP contest, which is not the same as 50% +1 of the electorate.

      First a UK GE, then S30, then Referendum, all within the time frame of the year from now, in autumn 2020.

      It may be argued that it is blind faith to believe that there is a Plan B in place when the bad SNP’s ‘gold standard’ option fails, to paraphrase Stu’s loaded scenario, and uses up precious oxygen in needless belly button gazing, at a time when all our energies should be devoted to the prize, Independence now.

    67. galamcennalath says:

      My faith that an independent Scotland will be a better place is unshaken.

      My belief that the broad church YES movement is capable of delivering independence is solid.

      I trust the Scottish people to choose independence when enough of them are informed of the facts and have seen through BritNat propaganda.

      I sincerely hope the SNP can play their part in enabling all this. I will continue to support and campaign for them because, at the moment, I can’t see any other choice. My faith and belief in their leadership to fully do their part is certainly wearing thin!

    68. Cubby says:

      What’s the difference between The Daily Mail and Wings.

      The Daily Mail say the truth is that the SNP/Scotgov are baaaad.

      Wings says the uncomfortable truth is that SNP/Scotgov are baaaad.

    69. Ahundredthidiot says:

      Too many people are showing a little bit of arrogance, we underestimate Brexit at our peril – it could kill our hopes for an independent Scotland……and the time may have passed to do a deal with the tories for an s30 in return for voting through the WA.

      History may not be kind.

    70. Terry says:

      It’s strange not being at the conference and watching it on tv. But when you cancel your membership you do develop more insight.

      Anyway time shall tell but my gut feeling is the Rev is right and it’s a wings party that will be needed for 2021. I still hope I’m wrong.

    71. galamcennalath says:

      @Cubby

      The Daily Mail SNPBad is motivated by a desire to see Scotland stay captive to the UK forever.

      WoS SNPBad is motivated by a desire to see Scotland independent ASAP.

    72. Ahundredthidiot says:

      you shouldve stuck with the movie Cubby, its hilarious.

      maybe too complicated for you though, a bit like this thread

    73. Heart of Galloway says:

      Stu, your analysis of your own figures was wrong, as I pointed out here:
      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-broad-church/#comment-2493451.

      Basically your informative research found that that part of the current SNP support which formerly voted Tory or Lib Dem (a significant 15%) would overwhelmingly vote yes in IndyRef2.

      In the same vein, regarding the above findings, Nicola Sturgeon will not hold IndyRef2 “without permission”.

      If Johnson refuses to sign up to taking part in S30 discussions then that process, by definition, would be ended “without agreement” from the other party. That is a fundamental difference to seeking “permission”.

      Such a refusal would precipitate, in the words of NS in her interview with Brian Taylor, “appropriate measures”. IOW there will be no backing off IndyRef2 next year.

      To do so would be a betrayal of the “cast iron mandate” and would have incalculably negative impacts on the SNP and the wider

      For that reason, the Scotland (Referendums) Act (which it will become shortly) will provide the mechanism for putting IndyRef2 “beyond legal dispute” while attracting international backing.

    74. Abulhaq says:

      We must have a party that FIGHTS for Scotland. Not one that goes through the motions like the pathetic Scotland rugby team in Japan.
      Time for political FIRE and political BACKBONE.
      Asking too much?

    75. Mark Newman says:

      We leave EU then we request section 30 , section 30 denied we challenge all the way to the Supreme Court probably ‘ if that fails do we go to international courts?

    76. Habib Steele says:

      Nicola Sturgeon and the Mandarins of the British, “Scottish National Party” have turned the SNP from being a Scottish Party that seeks independence for Scotland into being a British Party that fields candidates for General Elections only in Scotland, and forms the Government of Scotland. It’s a party that seeks to save the United Kingdom from a No Deal Brexit, rather than seeking to get Scotland out of the UK. The obvious time to act for independence is while the English Parliament of the UK is in chaos.

      Craig Murray compared Nicola and the SNP Mandarins to generals in a small army being engaged in a war with a larger army; the larger army is in chaos with infighting among factions, but the generals of the smaller army are waiting until they get their themselves in order before engaging in the battle. I would add to that that the generals of the smaller army are waiting for permission from the generals of the larger army before they engage in battle.

      Nicola and the SNP Mandarins must know that independence is not a matter of Domestic Law, but a matter of International Law. She’s actually going against the legal opinion of the English government of the UK by treating it under Domestic Law.

      Plan B proposes that the Scottish Government negotiate independence with the English government of the UK before independence. This would be a great mistake, giving the English government every opportunity and excuse to delay independence. No! The Scottish Government should resile the Treaty of Union and revoke the Act of Union with England first, then negotiate the terms of a just distribution of the Patrimony of the former UK.

      Craig Murray wrote:

      “The Independence of a country is not a matter of domestic law it is a matter of international law. The right of the Scottish Parliament to declare Independence may not be restricted by UK domestic law or by purported limitations on the powers of the Scottish Parliament. The legal position is set out very clearly here:

      5.5 Consistent with this general approach, international law has not treated the legality of the act of secession under the internal law of the predecessor State as determining the effect
      of that act on the international plane. In most cases of secession, of course, the predecessor States law will not have been complied with: that is true almost as a matter of definition.

      5.6 Nor is compliance with the law of the predecessor State a condition for the declaration of independence to be recognised by third States, if other conditions for recognition are
      fulfilled. The conditions do not include compliance with the internal legal requirements of the predecessor State. Otherwise the international legality of a secession would be predetermined by the very system of internal law called in question by the circumstances in which the secession is occurring.

      5.7 For the same reason, the constitutional authority of the seceding entity to proclaim independence within the predecessor State is not determinative as a matter of international law. In most if not all cases, provincial or regional authorities will lack the constitutional authority to secede. The act of secession is not thereby excluded. Moreover, representative
      institutions may legitimately act, and seek to reflect the views of their constituents, beyond the scope of already conferred power.

      That is a commendably concise and accurate description of the legal position. Of major relevance, it is the legal opinion of the Government of the United Kingdom, as submitted to the International Court of Justice in the Kosovo case. The International Court of Justice endorsed this view, so it is both established law and the opinion of the British Government that the Scottish Government has the right to declare Independence without the agreement or permission of London and completely irrespective of the London Supreme Court.

      I have continually explained on this site that the legality of a Declaration of Independence is in no sense determined by the law of the metropolitan state, but is purely a matter of recognition by other countries and thus acceptance into the United Nations. The UK Government set this out plainly in response to a question from a judge in the Kosovo case:

      2. As the United Kingdom stated in oral argument, international law contains no prohibition against declarations of independence as such. 1 Whether a declaration of independence leads to the creation of a new State by separation or secession depends not on the fact of the declaration but on subsequent developments, notably recognition by other States. As a general matter, an act not prohibited by international law needs no authorization. This position holds with respect to States. It holds also with respect to acts of individuals or groups, for international law prohibits conduct of non-State entities only exceptionally and where expressly indicated.”
      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/12/the-scottish-parliament-does-have-the-right-to-withdraw-from-the-act-of-union/?fbclid=IwAR1qusDGh12Jqivd6-GcnVSaOF3iy9loIUepK5da2W5Fl5hHZ4k82pwyJdI

    77. Heart of Galloway says:

      Apologies. “Wider independence movement.” (2nd last par).

    78. Athanasius says:

      Muscleguy – thanks for the biography. We were all interested and I think all of us are now better people for having heard it.

    79. Ahundredthidiot says:

      OT

      re rugby, the forwards were superb, it was our arrogant backs who let the team down.

      Townsend must pay the price.

    80. Mist001 says:

      @ Jack collatin

      Tommy Shepphard: ‘Sheppard encouraged First Minister Nicola Sturgeon to abandon plans for a second Scottish independence referendum before Brexit.’

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Sheppard

    81. Alabaman says:

      I’m not sure what your motives are Stew,
      Should you want to undermine the independence movement,
      and sow doubts, you appear to be using that tactic.

    82. Craig P says:

      Colin Alexender says:

      Sovereign Scotland needs permission from no others.

      I would argue that that is the law of Scotland.

      It would be great to have that confirmed in a court of law, wouldn’t it?

      Let it go to the supreme court and let them confirm that the people of Scotland are sovereign…

    83. cirsium says:

      @Daisy Walker, 3.08

      They have 3 ways: Bribe, Corrupt or Threaten. I think the first 2 are unlikely. That leaves the 3rd, and for that, anyone with loved ones is vulnerable.

      I never want to find the evidence of the last, because to do so, would be to endanger. And I do not want leaders in charge who would be willing to sacrifice loved ones for ultimately a political outcome.

      Good post, but the evidence of the first two is in plain sight. Bribery and corruption cover more than money changing hands. Think of jobs, position and patronage and think of the SNP being subverted by the focus on identity politics. Why would a state need to move to 3. when 1. and 2. are working so well?

    84. twathater says:

      Perhaps some of the better informed SNP MEMBERS can enlighten me , just watched Marr’s interview of NS where membership of EU was brought up , Marr asked if Scotland’s 7% deficit would have any impact on future membership , Nicola responded that Scotland’s deficit was coming down and that we could join EFTA initially

      So my question is , on this and other sites Scotland’s deficit , GERS , has continually been rubbished and denied as being the skewed figures produced by wastemonster based on incorrect data and ESTIMATES that are not proven and wastemonster will not provide the evidence for , so we have OUR FM admitting on a biased broadcast media that their assertion is correct and that we currently DO HAVE a 7% deficit , rather than point out the discrepancies which have been widely disproven
      So how do activists knock on doors and tell residents that we don’t have a deficit , and that it is just a construct of wastemonster’s deliberate obfuscation to show that Scotland IS TOO POOR to be independent , when OUR FM is not challenging their lies . IMO Nicola did not come off well in that interview . But there again I am only a SNP voter not a member and according to others my opinion doesn’t count

    85. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      liz @ 14:29,

      Looking over the pertinent detail of which dadsarmy reminded us in the previous thread, the letter was cleverly written. NS is a lawyer and no dummy either. It followed-up the parliamentary enactment as it necessarily had to, but in a way that allowed damage limitation from what was an anticipated (and in the event, actual) refusal from PM May, while also giving cover for a (frankly) desired delay based on an understanding that there was insufficient support among the people for a referendum at that time. And whatever (little!) we may think of the SNP’s strategy going in to the snap UKGE of 2017, that view was apparently reinforced by the result. It knocked the SNP leadership back by a year or more, and it took the unfolding disaster of Brexit to turn that all around.

      Much of the present palpable disenchantment among indy supporters is due IMO to the feeling that that much of that period since the parliamentary vote in the Spring of 2017 has been wasted, and the initiative lost, overlooking that it was in this “phoney war” period that most of the recent gains in public support for indy have been quietly won.

      The experience of having our initiatives scuppered by fiat from London has left its scars on some, though. Another UKGE is almost certainly due before long, come what may, and the zombie “Peoples’ Vote” is still shambling around, if in terminal condition. We won’t really be free of such potential interventions until the first has been dispatched (likely to advantage) and the second exorcised from the mind of most FibDem last-hope dreamers.

      To go once again into the crucial issue of timing, though, let’s look again at the terms represented in that letter:

      … to ensure that the Scottish Parliament can legislate for a referendum to be held […] most appropriately […] between the autumn of 2018, when there is clarity over the outcome of the Brexit negotiations, and around the point at which the UK leaves the EU in spring 2019.

      (see https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-broad-church/comment-page-1/#comment-2493598 )

      Well, the timing has indeed slipped by a year, not least due to the inability of the UKGov to even intervene in its own business let alone anyone else’s (!), but it looks like we’re getting to that very point now, so one is left wondering if the SG is about to be left flat-footed by a last-hour fudge between BoJo and Varadkar instead of the anticipated extension to end-January next year. And even if the latter is still the eventual outcome, how does a much-trumpeted IR2 next Autumn possibly match up to the timely action intimated in the letter?

      OK, the Referendum Bill is progressing nicely, and I’m prepared to suspend disbelief somewhat, but it’s hard to see the SG’s current “S.30-or-bust” strategy getting anywhere until after this next UKGE at best. It may be hard for us, the fully paid-up believers, to endure, but the SG strategy is clearly still firmly focussed on the sheep who still have to be brought into the fold. So for the moment I’m still wiling to allow that the SNP may be right and that sustained support for indy can’t be ignored without serious UKGov reputational damage, even if a Corbyn-escorted escape route is nothing more than a pipe dream.

      Still, the SG contains a lot of clever people, so whatever they may be saying in public, I can’t believe that they haven’t gamed several possible alternative outcomes. And I mean something more than the lame and fatuous “let the consequences of Brexit do the work for us”. That has worked well for us so far, but post the Dirty Deed it will be a fast-depreciating asset.

    86. Common Neil says:

      A conspiracy theorist (and let’s face it, there is no reason not to be one on either side of this divide as there is ZERO credible evidence from the SNP central ‘shoosh, you’ bubble that they even want a referendum) could easily conclude that Sturgeon’s entire raison d’etre is to prevent one. BIG conspiracy theory: How would MI5 have prepared to act, in the event of a close-call Referendum? They’d install a Nicola.

      Eat me, don’t fucking @ me, I’m simply making a point.

      I’ve given up giving a shit (all will be glad to hear). If the people of and/or in Scotland don’t want to take control by now, and are happy to take the broken promises and the fake (admit it, – they are) assurances and are happy to pay their subs just to be excluded and discounted, then they simply don’t deserve, or are simply not ready for, Independence.

      Plan A: Get Sturgeon the fuck out of the way, and elect a leader who can fight this war (and yes, it IS a war) like a true fucking bastard.

    87. John Jones says:

      What annoys me is that the SNP are not jumping with both feet on all the misinformation that continually keeps coming out.
      Take today on Andrew Married, Nicola stated that the deficit was coming down, what deficit? The one that we have care of GERS? Why aren’t they putting billboards up all over the country stating the truth and stopping the gullible people believing all this s**t? We have flyers in our local hub with these statistics which are handed out at every opportunity, there is only so much we can do in the community, we need to cover nationwide with easy to read, catchy mottos.

    88. callmedave says:

      O/T
      This Scotland football game is in danger of being called off…its persisting down. 🙁

      J. Cherry hints at…something…in the next 10 days. Aye right!

    89. Cubby says:

      Galamcennalath@4.55pm

      I agree but that doesn’t mean I can’t get pissed off with all the negativity. Plus the motivation may be what we both think that doesn’t mean I think it is helpful – in fact it may well be counter productive. Also as an atheist I do not take kindly to the suggestion that’s if you hold a position it is based on blind belief when it comes from a post where the evidence provided is a bunch of Britnat papers.

    90. Cubby says:

      Ahundredthidiot@4.57pm

      Thanks for those kind words. You of course are the one calling themselves an idiot. A bit of an idiotic thing to do.

    91. Andrew Morton says:

      I write as someone who worked with insurance policy wordings for forty years so I have some experience in understanding the nuances of small print. On many occasions I had to explain even to directors of large broking companies that what they thought a policy wording said wasn’t actually the case. Reading the words of the examples given above, I see nothing that says ‘here is the wording of a formal Section 30 request sent by Nicola Sturgeon to Theresa May’. I see a lot of sloppy journalism and misleading headlines along with a declaration by the First Minister that she wanted to initiate discussions *about* a Section 30 request. I have to conclude in the face of the evidence that there hasn’t been a Section 30 request so one *hasn’t* been refused.

      My own guess is that if and when a formal request is made we can forget about all the posturing of the Westminster parties. They don’t have a legitimate, legal reason for a refusal and if they did refuse there would be grounds for the Scottish Government to appeal to the courts.

      It hasn‘t escaped my notice that Scottish Ministers have been spending a lot of time talking to EU officials and European politicians and I imagine that the deal is that Scotland will go down the ‘legal’ route at first and only seek other solutions when that avenue has been exhausted. In return I suspect that guarantees about membership will have been given.

      I’ll now climb into my bunker and prepare for incoming.

    92. dadsarmy says:

      Anyways, catching up around including some news from the conference, and looking at relevant articles postings and upvotes, it seems to me the push against Sturgeon and Co has been defeated for the moment, plan A is the only one going ahead just now, it’s the mainstream SNP effort that continues – and backing for that is the wonderful Sarah Smith trying vainly to fasten on the likes of Plan B and other things.

      But I think it’s pretty clear they’re on a warning. Which to be honest I don’t think needs worry them as it’s probably not needed. But no harm in the Wings party sticking around as a prospect in case they fall back on their duffs and look longingly at the lazy long grass. Which is all awfully alliterative actually.

    93. Lenny Hartley says:

      Farcical conditions at Hampden Park, reminds me of Aberdeen v Real Madrid at Gothenburg , not sure if the ref is going to kerp the game going. If he abandons it would be typical as scotland are giving the mighty San Marino a drubbing.

    94. Cubby says:

      Andrew Morton@6.15pm

      A very sensible post.

    95. Mist001 says:

      @ Andrew Morton

      “…..I suspect that guarantees about membership will have been given.”

      I suspect that guarantees about a nice, cushy EU job have been given once Sturgeons tenure is over.

    96. Cubby says:

      Sunday Politics Scotland

      David Clegg back on. Every time. I see that horrible creature Clegg it reminds of the time on holiday in Arran I was attacked by horrible Cleggs. They were bad but the David Clegg is most definitely worse.

    97. Cubby says:

      Mist001@6.31pm

      In a previous post you claimed that Cherry and Blackford are ("Tractor" - Ed)s. Is there anyone in the SNP acceptable to you.

    98. Andrew Morton says:

      Mist001 @ 6:31
      That may be so but irrelevant.

    99. Mist001 says:

      @ Cubby

      There probably is but likely keeping very low profiles in fear of reprisals.

    100. Mist001 says:

      @ Andrew Morton

      It’s not irrelevant at all. Bribery and corruption isn’t unheard of so it could go something like ‘Nicola. Do all you can to prevent Brexit and we’ll reward you with a nice cushy number once you’ve been found out.

      Which may explain why more energy is spent trying to prevent or stop Brexit than is spent on the independence cause.

    101. Cubby says:

      Mist001@6.38pm

      Ha ha you do have a sense of humour.

    102. Cubby says:

      Mist001@6.40pm

      Ha ha again very funny post. Were you a stand up at one point in time or even still are.

    103. Colin Alexander says:

      “Any GE Party Manifesto must cover all aspects of the electorate’s life; Health, Finances, Foreign Policy, Law and Order and other little pesky details which voters look for when making a decision on whom to elect”.

      Not for the SNP.

      The SNP will NEVER be the UK Govt. Thus, there is no need to produce a manifesto for Westminster except one that says:

      Bring our MPs home to end the Union.

      Scotland ruled from Scotland by Scotland.

    104. Cubby says:

      Now I know why the site owner calls himself Rev. You are supposed to have blind faith in him being correct.

      Neither do I I do blind faith in the SNP leadership.

      I don’t do hero worship or blind faith or religion. Facts and evidence.

    105. Marcia says:

      Andrew Morton @ 6.15

      I will come and join you.

    106. Gordon Keane says:

      I am not impressed with the current SNP stance.
      Also, why wait ’till late 2020?
      We’d be out of EU by then.I thought the idea was to stop us leaving EU to begin with?
      Seems SNP bosses, have been trying to stop Brexit above all else.
      I’m sorry, but as I have said previously, we need a new pro Independence political Party in Scotland.
      SNP is letting us down, on that side of things.

    107. johnj says:

      Napoleon Bonaparte said never interfere with or enemy when he’s making a mistake.

      Although your theories are persuasive Rev they sound to me like short-term tactics which can lead to short term gains, followed by long term defeat
      Let the B******s stew and an Independence vote will become unavoidable, and if they continue to deny us that then that will be the time for UDI, following any of the scenarios of a Holyrood or Westminster majority.

    108. Bob Mack says:

      Let no_one who claimed Nicola was indulging in Realpolitik with her letter re the section 30 ,ever bemoan the likes of Donald Trump ever again.
      I thought the SNP were about morals and ethics. Maybe they are and its just some of their members that find it acceptable.

    109. Roland Smith says:

      At the moment 35 MPs hold the balance of power at Westminster. Use it, go to Johnson and offer him votes on condition that he negotiates for Scotland and NI to stay in CU and SM as per Wings couple of years back. England leaves, everyone happy and a huge step forward to independence because of the legislative powers that would follow. DUP then become irrelevant.

    110. Lenny Hartley says:

      Just took a panelbase poll, as soon as i said i voted snp in 2017 was kicked out of survey.
      Maybe somebody is doing one of labour voters. Much like Stu did with SNP Voters

    111. Cath says:

      I usually agree with most things you say, and I’m far from an SNP loyalist – their stance on the GRA and the nasty entry-ists who’ve come along with that has put me right off them as a party. It’s only independence and the sane voices of people like Joanna Cherry keeping me in for now (and the certainly said entryists are wreckers with no interest in indy; quite the opposite). But I’m not sure I agree with your analysis this time.

      You might be right, of course, and I have huge fears of a far right GE win and hard Brexit, followed by a swift removal of devolution and putting Scotland under a Union Jacked jackboot. But when it comes down to it, I don’t think that will happen. I see an increasing shift UK wide and internationally towards acceptance that Scottish independence is both inevitable and understandable. At the moment, like it or not, all the action on Brexit is at Westminster and that’s where all eyes are. So the SNP have to play on that stage. They’d be crazy not to. And the role they’re playing are the only grown ups in the room, trying to stop Brexit, trying to do the right thing for Scotland, the UK and the EU, playing within all the rules. That’s as it has to be. Anything else right now would just add more footstomping and uncertainty where it’s most definitely not needed or wanted.

      It may be frustrating – and the fact several of my own EU friends/neighbours/colleagues and their families have already left in the meantime makes me furious and upset as well – but I don’t see any good way for this to play out for unionists either. None of the UK parties want a GE; none of them want a hard Brexit; none of them want the kind of deal that can be done; none of them want to revoke Brexit (the LDs claim to want to but will end up in coalition with the Tories). Any Brexit will create havoc; no Brexit will create havoc.

      Scotland and the SNP know what they want – No Brexit and independence in the EU (or possibly EFTA). Sure, the UK government (whoever that is) can keep saying no to an S30, however great the chaos and however large the poll lead for indy, but all that will do is keep the poll lead growing, the march sizes increasing, the Brexit anger boiling. And meanwhile, Scotland will have plenty of friends internationally and in England who see the injustice. Even Labour in Wales is swinging behind a Welsh indy vote – there are almost certainly high profile media and political types in Scotland (and UK) who’d finally swing behind indy in a scenario where Scotland was dragged out the EU, there was a clear majority for indy and our choice was being denied.

      At that point, you’ll have a large win for yes. Frustrating, yes. Is it better to demand and fight for the right to hold a referendum too soon and have 52/48 one way or the other and less allies internationally and in the UK? Not so sure. I’m not ready to give up on the SNP just yet. Bear in mind, they’ve inherited a truly shit situation with Brexit – Nicola’s the perfect person for gradualism and building up a country over a 10-20 year period prior to the next referendum. Brexit threw everyone off track. I don’t doubt her desire for independence at all. If it does come down to a real dog fight though…

    112. TheItalianJob says:

      Andrew Morton @ 6.15pm

      Good to see you posting again Andrew.

      Well said and a good concise summary of where we are with the SNP strategy regarding Independence and Scotland’s EU membership subsequent to Independence.

    113. Terry callachan says:

      So Rev Stuart Campbell you say that I should read the posts here to understand what it is you and others think the SNP should be doing that they are not doing.

      I do

      I do not agree that SNP are going about things the wrong way, when you put your trust in a political party you will not know all that they plan to do , I don’t think you will know all that they plan to do, you are not a professional politician , SNP have many of them.
      I trust them.

      Until brexit actually happens SNP will not have a Scottish independence referendum
      Everyone here is aware of that , aren’t they ?

    114. Big Jock says:

      I am appalled that Nicola is now lying to us about a section 30 not being requested. Of course it was , enough of this obsequious shit! She calls a vote without a section 30 a unionist trap. FFS devolution itself is a unionist trap! The section 30 is a device of unionism. I have had enough of this fecking garbage. I want my party back !

    115. Big Jock says:

      The Salmond case is looming and Nicola is up to her neck in it. Salmond is a naughty boy, but he is no criminal.

      I fully expect Nicola to resign in Match.

    116. Terry callachan says:

      Hello daisy walker

      All your suggestions how SNP can inform people in Scotland and counter the disinformation coming from elsewhere , fabulous , I think we will see SNP doing exactly that in a big way once the next Scottish independence referendum date is announced.

      There are many people on wings losing faith in the SNP , Rev S Campbell included
      I’m not one of those

      I do not wish to join them in those negative views of the SNP because I don’t think there is evidence to back it up , it’s what they surmise but predicting the future of anything when Westminster is involved is a mistake

    117. liz says:

      Thanks for the responses to my comment.

      As ever, very smart people on here.

    118. Terry callachan says:

      A S30 is just an agreement
      Scottish independence will need an agreement
      An agreement about how Scotland and England will proceed once Scotland is independent

      Politicians always say they will not agree to things that they often eventually come to agree on
      That’s life in logistics
      We see it with brexit day in day out

      No different with Scottish independence

      All of you who are abandoning SNP or Nicola Sturgeon or both are making a big mistake
      you are doing exactly what Westminster want you to do

    119. Dan says:

      twathater says: at 5:43 pm

      Perhaps some of the better informed SNP MEMBERS can enlighten me , just watched Marr’s interview of NS where membership of EU was brought up , Marr asked if Scotland’s 7% deficit would have any impact on future membership , Nicola responded that Scotland’s deficit was coming down and that we could join EFTA initially

      So my question is…

      Hud oan a minute. Forgive me for interrupting you, but my question is why would we need to join EFTA as I thought Ian Blackford stated Scotland wouldn’t be pulled out the EU against its will.
      Just searched for the info graphic which captures that and first result returned today’s IB conference speech.

      https://www.snp.org/ian-blackfords-address-to-snp19/

      Hmm. this excerpt doesn’t quite state the same thing.

      The SNP – your SNP MPs – will stand firm in speaking up for Scotland, in respecting Scotland’s vote to remain and in never backing any attempt to take us out of the European Union against our will.

      I’m fair scunnered with all this carefully produced legal eagle / weasel wording which can be interpreted in different ways to allow slippery eel like politicians to get away with stating what they actually mean.
      Heads up politicians, these days folk listen to what you say, especially when it relates to such significant events that effect our futures. Any chance youse could be just a little more focused with what you say so the electorate can make informed plans and decisions.
      We’re not all well off so don’t have the financial security to ride out storms. TIA.

      Another EG. We all recall the mandate wording with “Such as Scotland being taken out the EU against its will”.
      I read that as Robert Louis upthread. ie. in the process of, not after the fact, or it would have said “having been taken out against its will”.

      @Daisy Walker. re. Led by Donkeys mobile projector.
      The big crowd funded groups like SIC don’t appear to be doing this so with assistance from another Winger there is a projector of sorts.
      Need to buy a pricey powerful sine wave inverter and install heavy duty cabling to car battery because current draw is substantial. 250 watts continuous at 240v AC means this can’t be simply plugged in to vehicle cigarette lighter socket.
      Car and bike tax and insurance all due so finances this month are a tad squeezed. However the good news is the darker winter nights will be ideal for projecting.

    120. schrodingers cat says:

      Terry callachan says:
      Until brexit actually happens SNP will not have a Scottish independence referendum
      ————-

      Probably

      i think nicola, and myself, thought that brexit would have been decided by now and that we would still have had time to hold indyref2.

      the tories have manipulated the talks in such a way that there isnt even time now to hold a ge.

      to that end, i think we will have left the eu before we hold indyref2.

      then again, i also expected support for yes to be much higher by now, so maybe this situation is no bad thing.

      but the snp policy of opposing brexit is winning over nos to yes, as joana C said at conference today, so i agree with the snp position. it will only be an issue if they actually succeed in stopping brexit which no one thinks is even a remote possibility

      as for the s30, im sure RP will be along to point out that since the people are sovereign, we technically dont need one, and he would be right. however, when it comes to other countries recognising an indy scotland it is dessirable.

      whether boris refuses a s30, will depend on his situation at the time of asking, ie if it is after a ge and boris heads a minority government, he might agree just to get rid of the scots.

      if he did refuse, im certain a legal challenge would follow, id be interessted to hear views on that issue

    121. Bob Mack says:

      The independence movement has 1.6 million voters. Probably more now.

      The SNP has 670,000 voters,of whom 125000 are members.

      We are bigger than them.They only lead for now , but we can follow anybody we wish. so who needs who.

    122. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Dan.

      Why not do a crowdfunder for what you require to get the projector mobile across Scotland?

      Jiss an ehdeea…

    123. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Och, one more crowdfunder that needs a bit of input.

      Mark Piggott (WOS “Tartanpigsy”) brought the pile of YES flags into Scotland for indyref1.

      He wants to do the same for indyref2. Can we help him achieve this? Here’s a couple of quotes from the link below:

      “Back in 2014 we brought in the first ever mass produced Yes Flags.
      It wasn’t easy, At the time it was the biggest single import we’d done and it was hit by snags , and delays, and initial doubts from donors.
      But eventually, with help along the way, we succeeded and provided #Indyref1 with a great shot in the arm at a crucial period.
      This time around we’re making another 6000 of the original Yes Saltires, 3000 EU Saltires, 1500 Yes Saltire Car Flags, and 1500 sets of Yes Saltire car wing mirror covers**.”

      and
      “Time is very short. Brexit happening on October 31st will mean potential chaos at UK ports so all goods are timed to arrive and clear customs before that date*.
      With this in mind we have already sent a deposit to instigate production out of our own pockets. We anticipate running the fundraiser until around mid September but as yet no closing date has been set.
      Please do what you can to help Yes be ready for the final leg of Scotlands long walk to freedom.
      Donate, Share, Tweet, tell those not on Social Media about this campaign, and remember, these flags work!

      The Perks – Donate £10 and you’ll receive a flag in the post
      Donate £100 and you’ll receive 10 flags in the post”

      https://www.gofundme.com/f/the-return-of-10000-flags-for-yes

    124. Mist001 says:

      Imagine, if you will, that you are Boris Johnson. On one hand, you have Brexit to deal with and all the deals, arguments, details and so on which has been dragging on for three years.

      On the other hand, you have this pesky Sturgeon woman asking for a section 30 order which you’ve already told her, won’t be granted.

      So, what to do, what to do………..

      Why not just shut down Holyrood and get them out of the way?

      Remember, this is the guy who prorogued Parliament TWICE. It’ll be no skin off his nose to get rid of the pesky Scots however he sees fit.

      I don’t think the SNP are considering this scenario seriously enough.

    125. george wood says:

      If a political party which is formed around a particular idea stays around long enough then the party tends to become more important to the members than the original reason it was formed. The Labour party is a good example of that and sadly the SNP seems to have gone the same way.

      The Rev has produced useful information about what SNP voters think and because the SNP fanbois don’t like what SNP voters are saying, they are throwing the toys out of the pram.

      If the Rev had done this sort of analysis on say Labour voters then the fanbois would no doubt have been saying great job Stu – you have gone back to what you are good at.

      NS could have nipped all the speculation in the bud by saying that, if a section 30 was refused, then there were contingency plans in place. She doesn’t need to say what they are, only that a referendum will be called before 2021 regardless. Instead we are in the position where she is saying that a Section 30 is the only route and no Plan B or C are allowed.

    126. stonefree says:

      @ Common Neil at 6:03 pm
      I doubt it your far adrift,I had to check up when I first noticed something afoot May/June 2016 seems about right.
      I personally am convinced she (probably indirectly)jettisoned Alex Salmond , and a return for him would be at least the first quarter of 2020.The gender issuse seems a way to stir the shit, and to target SNP member who are not member within her cliche..If this continues recovery will be hard ..Just my opinion

    127. MorvenM says:

      This is what Nicola said at the SNP Spring Conference, 2017:

      “I could take the easy option.

      I could let Scotland drift through the next two years, hoping for the best, but knowing that the worst is far more likely…

      Waiting for the chance to say I told you so….knowing that by then it might be too late to avoid the damage of a hard Brexit.

      Or I could make a plan now to put the Scottish people in charge of our own future.

      I choose to put the people in charge.”

      Anybody think she kept her word?

    128. sassenach says:

      Lots of ‘new’ names joining in the Revs “Lets knock the SNP” series.

      Just hope they will all give generously to the next Wings crowdfunder, so that the job can be completed and the SNP left for dead!!

      Then the Rev can install his Wings party, and all will be sorted – except that a Wings party will never even start if a ‘foreign’ leader who’s trademark is profanity were to be involved The Britnats would have a field day.

    129. Bobp says:

      Mist001 8.35 PM. That’s my thinking as well, if after a hard Brexit Johnson decides to shut down Holyrood like they done stormont. What then? And spare me the sovereignty sh**e.

    130. Terry callachan says:

      I do not believe the members or those who vote for SNP necessarily have a better idea about how to go about getting Scottish independence or when to have the referendum.
      The various polls here on wings are interesting they show what some voters think but those voters are not more knowledgeable than the SNP about the politics of Scotland and Westminster nor are they more knowledgeable about the best route and timing of a Scottish independence referendum.

      Some people appear to think that the voters are more knowledgeable

      I have put my trust in SNP despite what bob Mack rightly says about SNP members only being a small proportion of the YES vote I believe there is only one party the SNP that will guide us to Scottish independence no other political party will do it for us .

      It’s worrying how easily some folk are put off voting for SNP and diverted from supporting and trusting Nicola Sturgeon
      Where’s your evidence of their failure ?

      If it’s a few polls here on wings that is turning you off the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon keep in my mind that the people who respond to these polls are just ordinary folk they don’t have inside information they don’t have specialist knowledge the way SNP and Nicola Sturgeon do , hell they are probably like so many of us , affected by what we read and hear in the newspapers and on tv and radio

      Do not make the mistake of abandoning SNP and Nicola Sturgeon right near the end of the journey to independence

    131. Andrew Morton @ 6.15

      Refreshing to read a post from someone who uses facts and logic to understand the actual situation.

      Dog whistle press reporting is creating a lot of false impressions of where we actually are.

      Things will move quickly in the next few weeks of that we can be sure.

    132. Terry callachan says:

      Westminster won’t shut down Holyrood
      To do so would be a golden opportunity for Scottish independence they know that

      You don’t need that particular building to organise Scottish independence
      The Scottish Parliament could meet elsewhere if necessary in fact many parliaments across the world have had to do exactly that in the past

      You can’t shut down a political movement by closing the doors of a particular building so there’s no way Westminster will shut down Holyrood

    133. Essexexile says:

      MorvenM @8.40pm

      Sad to say, but it’s a bit like when the weather forecasters cheerfully tell you tomorrow will be fine when yesterday’s forecast turned out to be wrong.
      If you were talking shite then, why should I believe you now.
      I was unaware of the quote you posted. I’ll take your word that is what NS said but it’s pretty damning.
      Can I at least try and be positive and say I believe NS is genuinely committed to indy, she’s just being very badly advised and distracted by opportunists in the party.

    134. Bobp says:

      TC 9.13pm. As mist001 said , Johnson prorogued parliament twice. This clown or his party has no respect for democracy, there is nothing I wouldn’t put past him. He knows Scotland would whinge for a while but then accept their lot.saying ah but whit can we dae about it.

    135. Moonlight says:

      Seems a lot of people are highly pissed off with the SNP. Can anyone tell me who to vote for, in Scotland, if I don’t want to vote for a unionist party, which will further entrench us into the union. Which other party has independence and EU membership in its manifesto. ( the Greens might but not really a serious alternative)

      Like it or not, at the moment Scotland is trapped in the union. If the union leaves the EU, then Scotland is dragged along with it. (Saving a clever plan which we are not yet party to). So, in accordance with the Scottish 62% remain vote, the only way to keep Scotland in the EU is to keep the UK in the EU. Hence the stance of our representatives at Holyrood and Westminster. Now we know that this is an unlikely goal, but it does reflect the reality.

      In the next stage, following the UK’s withdrawal, crash out or whatever, if Scotland is refused an S30. (not permission, but an agreement to honour the result) then it’s time for a referendum anyway.
      Why do we want an S30. Having one will smooth the passage of the subsequent negotiation with England and allow the international community to unreservedly support Scotland’s position. When that S30 is refused it will be time to move on to plans B and C which undoubtedly exist, it is beyond belief that the possibilities have not been discussed and options established.

      It’s important though to get everything in the right order. Were I to be the escaped slave, charged with culpable homicide of my master, I would like to say that firstly I asked nicely to be released. When that failed I asked again and he punched me, I punched him back. Then I asked and he took a knife and tried to stab me, I grabbed a kitchen knife and slashed his arm. Then he produced a gun, I distracted him and hit him very hard with a baseball bat. This finished him off, but left me defending my actions.

      When we stand before the court of international opinion we will have to demonstrate the correctness of our actions and will gain their sympathy, assistance and recognition.

    136. Capella says:

      Was at the SNP Conference today and enjoyed the speeches from Ian Blackford, Joanna Cherry, Mike Russell, Tommy Sheppard, Deirdre Brock, Chris Law and others. The effort to get Plan B on the agenda fell by an almost unanimous vote.

      Plan A is the plan endorsed by an overwhelming majority of the members attending the conference. We may as well accept that.

      @ Neil Mackenzie says 2:33 pm

      The Section 30 order isn’t permission. It’s protocol and it’s compulsory. The UK government has a legal duty to issue the Section 30 order in due course. That’s the constitutional procedure available in this country to comply with the international law which requires respect for the right to self-determination of peoples. In 2017, Spain didn’t have that in place. We do. We’ve had it since 2012. We’ve done it once and that’s called a legal and constitutional precedent.

      I think this is also Plan A. Nested within Plan A is a series of actions which will lead to independence as the inevitable outcome of Westminster’s current political direction.

      If this is blind faith, then it is blind faith in the rule of Scottish and International law. Yes, sometimes rogue states break the law. When that happens, the international community has the right to intervene, like a referee in a football match.

    137. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Reminder that the next ‘Frriends of WOS’ shindig is in Dows, Glasgow (at Queen St station) on Fri Oct 25th.

      Some of us will be there mid-afternoonish (say, from 3) to prepare the upstairs room. If enough of us turn up early then they’ll probs open the bar for us. Elsewise we congregate downstairs.

      Please bring some food, even if it’s just a packet of Frazzles. They know we’re bringing our own stuff and that we’ll clean up afterwards.

      😉

    138. Cubby says:

      Nicola Sturgeon wants to WIN an independence referendum. She’s already got the t- shirt for losing one and now wants a winning t- shirt. All these delays are about having the referendum at the best possible time to ensure victory.

    139. MorvenM says:

      Essexexile at 9.16 pm:

      Here’s the link to the whole speech, in case anybody thinks I misquoted Nicola.

      https://www.snp.org/nicola-sturgeon-s-address-to-snp-spring-conference-2017/

      Unless MI5 were recruiting teenagers to infiltrate the SNP back in the 1980s (which I doubt!), Nicola has been a life-long believer in indy. I just think, like you, she is being very badly advised, for reasons I can’t claim to understand.

    140. So, Looks like Nicola got it right. By Stu’s own statistics, support amongst Remain voters for Independence has significantly increased – delivering 50% overall for Independence.

      And, as Curtis points out, the SNP’s stance on remain has not affected the independence-favouring Leavers in any way.

      The SNP gets it right again Stu, there are no so blind as those who will not see.

      It seems odd to me that Stu actually believes that Nicola and the SNP do not realise that the other options are open to them – but have simply judged that this is not the time to to grasp them.

      I would trust their judgement before irascible bloggers from Bath

      Can we go back to challenging the MSM now????

    141. Beflox says:

      What on earth happened to the Wings site and its followers? It’s turned into an embarrassment.

    142. Heart of Galloway says:

      RJS@5.45

      “It’s hard to see the SG’s current “S.30-or-bust” strategy getting anywhere until after the next GE at best”.

      The current SNP strategy is no such such thing, my friend. The request for talks on agreeing a S30, from the ScotGov’s perspective, will be from a position of equality with the Johnson government.

      If the latter fails to parley the ScotGov will move on to the next stage of planning Indy Ref2, having exposed the Johnson administration for the vicious little British/English nationalists they are.

      I repeat – again – the Referendums (Scotland) Act as it will shortly become will be pivotal in legitimising IR2. The SNP WILL NOT back down and Scotland will get the chance to save itself and all her citizens next year, between May and September.

      And by the way all, at conference today, at every fringe event I attended the defence of Scotland’s place in the EU was the only game in town. Huge pro-European emotion and many tales of a wholescale shift to YES across all sectors.

      So mark this, and mark this well: the SNP will prepare for, justify, organize and hold IndyRef2 in the warm months of 2020. The case for independence will presage the campaign for which the YES legions have been agitating.

      Also, the move for a Plan B was defeated, on a visual reckoning of the people around me, by 50 to 1. Only around 20 hands went up for Chris McIleney.

    143. Robert Peffers says:

      @Lollysmum says: 13 October, 2019 at 2:07 pm:

      ” … I’m with John Thomson above Vote SNP1 Wings2 You know it makes sense ?”

      Well no it does not, Lollysmum. You see no one yet knows who will stand as Wings candidates and no one knows what their policies will be. You cannot just vote for someone on the vague promise they support independence – some people did that in previous elections and voted for the Greens but today I read that the Greens will no longer be supporting the SNP.

      Furthermore there is a very good reason that plans B are called plans B – it is because they are not so good as plan A. Now don’t get me wrong, (but I suspect there will be a queue of Wingers ready to do just that),.

      I’m not saying a Wings Party is a bad idea, mind you I’m not saying it is a good idea either – I’m just saying I want to know a lot more about the nuts and bolts of the idea before I decide if it is an idea worth supporting. Sadly, to date, I am less than encouraged by the comments of some Wingers on the forum.

      But carry on arguing among yourselves while I lurk and make the occasional comment. Can you imagine the impact certain Whingers” Oops! Wingers would make as Wings Party MSPs with their maiden speech at Holyrood? They would be more of an opposition to the SNP than Labour, Tory and the LibDem acting together.

      The old saying holds good – look before you leap.

      With those few thoughts I’ll awa back tae lurking and listening.

    144. Alt Clut says:

      Look at the length of this thread and convert that into time and energy used up.
      I spend my time with SNPers and YESers building support for indy and votes for the main party of independence in elections. Movements win based on their support levels. Split and divided movements fail. Methods are found by pushing forward.
      Much of the rest is self important bollocks.
      Build the movement – build the pressure – the break will come.

    145. call me dave says:

      Jings:
      A whole call in going on on radio 5:
      Break up of the UK.
      Big rammy between 2 Independents (who are not clued up) & a loyal Unionist (who is less clued up than the other two)

      Tune in and get more depressed. FGS!

      Once in a life time referendum. Were skint! NHS / Schools rubbish

      Countered with we beat Edward 1st etc
      FGS!

    146. North chiel says:

      Tend to agree with Terry Callaghan’s posts this evening and RJS Post at 0545 p.m. It seems not too long ago that some posters were in favour of an “ early “ referendum . Our FM ( perhaps due to everchanging circumstances) has remained “ patient” and it would now appear that “ soft no’s “ are slowly moving to Yes . In fact polling averages would appear now to have “Yes” ahead . Despite this I am disappointed as regards the “ carping” against our FM recently , despite our FM’s calm , patient and measured leadership in the face of the biggest political crisis of a generation . Perhaps the “ reasonable people of Scotland “ actually recognise this , and respect how our FM has conducted herself recently ( her calm considered and resolutely determined persona perhaps just possibly might “ strike a chord” with our people . NO RANTING or RAVING or HYSTRIONICS from our First Minister . No intemperate language or I’ll mannered outbursts, just a totally professional politician at the very top of her game. clever and consistent and comfortable amongst her “ aim folks” . What more do you want as a REPRESENTATIVE OF OUR COUNTRY ON THE NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL STAGE???!! . A CLASS PERSON and A CLASS POLITICIAN!!
      One prediction I will make is that if she “ steps down “ and is replaced by a more “ radical” leader then the current YES narrow independence lead ( carefully and painstakingly cultivated) will melt away like “ snow off a dyke” . NIcola Sturgeon is right . We need to persuade our people that INDEPENDENCE is RIGHT for our country . Slowly the “ penny is beginning to drop” . Keep the faith and HOLD YOUR NERVE . If we do , I predict a landslide .

    147. JOML says:

      I trust your interpretation – I don’t trust the SNP. That said, I’ll vote for them first up, then assess my options in the list.

    148. @Cubby – well said esp Daily Mail etc 4.42

      and @dadsarmy 4.02

      It seems to me that Stu could rationally discuss all these options without the SNP baaad and tractor rubbish

      The SNP and Nicola will move onto other options if and when they feel the time is right. Stu has the same right to double guess them as anyone else – but he should be able to do it without the anti-SNP nonsense if he is serious about a Wings party.

    149. Blanchard says:

      When the milk turns sour it’s best not to drink it.

    150. defo says:

      Jack C
      I took issue with your dismissal of Stu commissioning polls to further inform the debate.
      “Get a grip, and give these polls a rest, will you?”
      You retort with the commendable, but irrelevant to the Main goal work of our MSPs.
      Deflection. What you mean is shut up. Period.

      “Make Independence a single issue manifesto in the imminent UKGE and if 50% + 1 of the electorate vote SNP, then that’s it: Instant Independence?

      Nonsense on a unicycle of course.”

      Why not? Maybe not quite that simple, but why not?
      Isn’t that democracy in action?
      You tell the electorate EXACTLY what you’re proposing, and if you get the nod from the sufficient number (50% +1 here, as you say), you enact your proposal.

      This isn’t Catalonia mate, and the much commented over Section 30 is not in the gift of our Imperial masters.
      Our sovereignty is, and always has been the key to regaining our independence.

      For the record, i’ve never voted for anyone bar the SNP.
      Post Indy? I’ll see what’s on offer.

    151. wull says:

      I have voiced various disagreements with Nicola Sturgeon on several different points here, at different times.

      Yet a large part of me still has a pretty strong feeling that, no matter how much I disagree with her about this or that, she is still going to get it sufficiently right to win the one thing we all want: Scotland’s independence.

      I see no reason at all to despair.

      To the contrary … We are winning. It’s taking time but we ARE winning …. It may be all too gradual for impatient people like me but, whether I like it or not, her calculations are more likely to be well informed than mine.

      Which doesn’t make them (her calculations) infallible. But I can’t think of anything that would give a sure-fire guarantee that my calculations are better than hers … To the contrary, hers are far more likely to be correct than mine.

      I am very interested in political principles, in how to maintain and safeguard them … and in achieving the goal of independence.

      But the current focus here seems to be on CALCULATIONS considering how best or quickest to get there, which move to make and when …. That’s an area where my guess may be as good as yours, but also where some people really are much better informed than others. It’s also an area where those with the responsibility – and that’s not me – have to make the calls.

      As I said, despite my criticisms of her (which remain), I do accept that Nicola is more likely to get the calculations right than I am. And I still have that sneaky feeling that she IS getting it right, and will indeed achieve the result, when the right moment strikes.

      I wonder if there are others who feel the same as me even if, like me, they are not members of her fan club.

    152. call me dave says:

      BBC4
      Saying that tonight Boris has dropped the DUP veto in Brexit negotiations. 🙂

    153. Susan Macdiarmid says:

      Actually, faith is not always blind. There is another type of faith, the faith of trust, which comes through objective study and analysis of theories, actions and results. Just saying.

    154. Normski says:

      Dude, fuck sake. “The Indpendent” stating that she formaly requested a Section 30 Order is not the same as her actually requesting it.

      You are the very person who always makes the point that you need to read past the headline.

    155. Bob Mack says:

      @Normski,

      Better tell that to the SNP website and Holyrood magazine.

    156. Bob Mack says:

      who wants my bet.

      No referendum in 2020. £100 quid. Come on you faithful.

    157. crazycat says:

      @ Dan at 8.03

      Re: projector

      Have you tried the Scottish Independence Foundation (https://www.sif.scot/)for financial support? It sounds just the sort of thing they like.

    158. Davie Oga says:

      Normski says:
      13 October, 2019 at 10:59 pm
      Dude, fuck sake. “The Indpendent” stating that she formaly requested a Section 30 Order is not the same as her actually requesting it.

      According to the commons library she requested the Section 30 in 2017.

    159. Dr Jim says:

      Paragraph 18 of the Smith Commission 27th November 2014 states “It is agreed nothing in this document prevents Scotland from becoming an Independent country in the future should the people of Scotland so choose”

      The British government cannot refuse a section 30 order from the Scottish government it’s a transfer of power from UK government to Scottish government not a gift or permission, under the terms of Union to refuse to do so they would become a dictatorship from that point

      This is not just some whim of Nicola Sturgeon to do things this way, this is a demonstration of legality to the UN and the EU so that Scotland faces no entry difficulties later with these organisations

      She’s not had meetings with all these people for coffee and biscuits that’s why the British government withdrew her consular assistance that we pay for, they knew then and they know now

      “I will put it beyond all legal challenge” she said

    160. Cubby says:

      Davie Oga@11.49pm

      Commons library.

      Was that the blurb written by David Torrance? If it is it is as clear as mud. It does not actually say that a sect 30 was requested but it says it was refused by the UK.

      You know the well known Britnat Torrance – now we know what he is doing with his time

    161. dadsarmy says:

      Can anyone spot the difference:

      According to the commons library Nicola Sturgeon requested a Section 30 order in 2017. She was adamant that she hadn’t on Marr today. Either the commons library is incorrect or that’s a reasonably important whopper of a lie.

      to this:

      Nicola Sturgeon’s 2017 request

      More than two years later, on 13 March 2017, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon confirmed she would ask the Scottish Parliament for authorisation to request another section 30 order. MSPs approved this by 69 votes to 59. In response, then Prime Minister Theresa May told MPs: “now is not the time to be talking about a second independence referendum.”

      https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/parliament-and-elections/devolution/whats-the-process-for-a-second-independence-referendum-in-scotland/

      she would ask the Scottish Parliament for authorisation to request another section 30 order

      and does anyone remember weetabix:

      David Torrance is a Senior Library Clerk at the House of Commons Library, specialising in devolution and the constitution.

      Check, double-check and then check again. And give links and references for any assertion made, so people can check if it’s valid – or not as in this case.

    162. Cubby says:

      Question for Bob Mack

      If the role of Wings Is to hold all political parties to account does that mean Wings will hold itself to account if it forms a political party. Or will a new Wings 2 need to be created to hold the original Wings to account. There will be so many Wings about you could have a barbecue.

    163. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Another crowdfunder that deserves support:-

      Phantom Power – they who produced a 25 episode series of “From No to Yes”.

      https://www.gofundme.com/f/future-scotland

    164. Dr Jim says:

      No section 30 order was at any time demanded formally by the Scottish government, a letter was sent to discuss the terms of such a request by the FM, the request to discuss terms was declined, this was not a formal demand from government to government which is what is required for a transfer of temporary power no matter how much the troublemakers would have you believe different

    165. Cubby says:

      Should anyone who was not at the March in Edinburgh on 5th Oct complain about others not attending?

    166. Bob Mack says:

      @Cubby,

      As far as I am aware Wings is not yet a political party. So anything he does just NOW is just fine.

      You SNP devotees have a real issue with this honesty thing.

    167. Bob Mack says:

      @Dr Jim,

      You and Cubby should open a double act spinning plates in a circus.

      What utter prevarication, and with such utter conviction too.

    168. dadsarmy says:

      @Bob Mack
      What was actually said on the Commons Library is in my link, and it’s nothing like the claim that is made that it says:

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/comment-page-1/#comment-2493746

      she would ask the Scottish Parliament for authorisation to request another section 30 order

      That’s “would ask”, and it’s not even the UK Parliament of Government, it’s the SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT.

      No spin there, just fake news – something this website exposes.

      Oh, and “another” refers to the one for 2014, done in 2012, between her – and Michael Moore, and between Cameron amd Salmond.

    169. Bob Mack says:

      @Dadsarmy,

      For heavens sake. You imply that the vote of 69 to 59 was about giving themselves permission to request another section 30 order.
      Then presumably they wou!d vote again having been given permission by their first vote to again request another sdction 30 order. really ?

    170. dadsarmy says:

      Eh?

    171. Bob Mack says:

      @Dadsarmy,

      Did you read the Green amendment to that motion,which was accepted.

      Your implication is that 69 voted to not request a section 30 order, but to give themselves permission to ask for a sdction 30 order at some future date.

      That was not wbat the motion said.

    172. dadsarmy says:

      @Bob Mack
      The POINT being made is exactly as I put in this posting, that the assertion “According to the commons library Nicola Sturgeon requested a Section 30 order in 2017

      is totally untrue. It’s fake news. It’s a dead parrot it does not fly, it can not swim, it is extinct, it never existed, it is false.

      It does not back up any assertion that Sturgeon lied on the Marr show.

    173. Bob Mack says:

      @Dadsarmy,

      How can it be untrue. There was a vote in Holyrood that is documented. it won by 69 to 59. The motion was laid out in clear terms by the Green party amendment.

      This parrrot is alive and kicking but people
      seem determined to ignore what is a matter of record and have it vanish up its own derriere

    174. Bob Mack says:

      @Dadsarmy,

      presumably you dont remember Nicola posing on her couch signing the document for al! the media. Not once did she revoke or put right any headline in every media form that carried the story.

      She was happy about doing this following the vote.

      If y ou have any corrections ffom the SNP at that time, then let me know.

    175. Paul says:

      Any chance of getting back to attacking the Yoons instead of the Party that actually stands up for Scotland that would be a nice change. Now pit the Dummy back in!

    176. dadsarmy says:

      @Bob Mack
      Getting back to the Commons Library, and the false assertion it shows Sturgeon lies, which it does not:

      LOOP

    177. Bob Mack says:

      @Paul,

      Where do you want to go in to?

    178. Bob Mack says:

      @Dadsarmy,

      Sadly sbe did lie or amazing!y forgot about 2017.

    179. dadsarmy says:

      @Bob Mack
      But the Commons Library article neither proves nor disproves it. Let’s have a look at the old calendar.

      ” Motion S5M-04710: Nicola Sturgeon, Glasgow Southside, Scottish National Party, Date Lodged: 20/03/2017
      Scotland’s Choice … and therefore mandates the Scottish Government to take forward discussions with the UK Government on the details of an order under section 30″

      20/03/2017

      “More than two years later, on 13 March 2017, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon confirmed she would ask the Scottish Parliament for authorisation to request another section 30 order.”

      13 March 2017.

      Now I don’t know about your calendar, but in mine the 13th March 2017 is ONE WEEK BEFORE the 20th March 2017 – the earliest date she would have been mandated to ask May to start early discussions on a Section 30.

      THEREFORE THE COMMONS LIBRARY COULD NOT HAVE BEEN REPORTING A REQUEST FOR A SECTION 30 ORDER UNLESS IT HAD A TIME MACHINE

      You know you’re wrong Bob, why not just admit it – or pass on?

      Anyways, I’m off. That’s X-men over.

    180. Davie Oga says:

      Dadsarmy

      A request to begin discussions on a Section 30 was written and signed by The First Minister, and delivered to Theresa May on March 31st 2017.

      https://news.gov.scot/news/section-30-letter

      She lied on Marr. She requested to begin the process.

    181. Stu,
      you have lost the dressing room; but I am sure that you are astute enough to know what you are doing.

      Some would argue that you have wandered off into a SNP tangential rant.

      Your site has now been irrevocably contaminated by the Better Together virus, I’m afraid.

      I note that Macwhirter has thrown in the towel too, and joins the other Hack grunters and knicker drawer rummagers musing about Salmond’s ‘r@pe trial’.

      We Oldies can forget independence in our lifetime apparently because Mighty England will just say no, and we will get down on our knees and obey our colonial masters.

      What a sludge of defeatist guff you guys are wallowing in, for whatever reason, which, at the moment, escapes me.

      If you think that it is all so hopeless, then close this site; why plod on if we are so ungratefuland you think that it is all so pointless.
      You are either part of the solution, or part of the problem.

    182. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Dr Jim

      Forget the spin trust is a two way thing and it has been a progressive downward spiral for a long time. Where are all the rebuttals promised by the deputy K Brown to the mince produced by the MSM nowhere they pander to them. Michelle Thompson was thrown under the media bus to keep a steady ship and them in their cosy well paid jobs. Growth Commission the biggest heap of garbage this side of the edge of the universe extremities yet it was endorsed with glee by the hierarchy. To cosy in their personal coccunes springs to mind.

      Please sir has never ever worked when dealing with Westminster and never will grow a pair.

    183. dadsarmy says:

      @Davie Oga
      That’s NOT the claim you made earlier:

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/comment-page-1/#comment-2493743

      Davie Oga says:
      13 October, 2019 at 11:49 pm

      Normski says:
      13 October, 2019 at 10:59 pm
      Dude, fuck sake. “The Indpendent” stating that she formaly requested a Section 30 Order is not the same as her actually requesting it.

      According to the commons library she requested the Section 30 in 2017.

      And the letter she wrote to May on 31 March, 2017 is here:

      https://www.snp.org/nicola-sturgeon-s-section-30-letter-to-theresa-may/

      I am therefore writing to begin early discussions between our governments to agree an Order under section 30 . . .

      “early discussions” is NOT the same as “formally” requesting the S30 Order.

      So you have NOT proven she lied – whatever it was she actually said on the Marr show. So far the score is: Sturgeon attackers 0 – Sturgeon herself infinity.

      Night night.

    184. Ghillie says:

      Strange coming from a Reverend.

      I believe Nicola Sturgeon and team know something you do not know.

      Actually, alot you do not know.

    185. Ghillie says:

      I say can one thing for the questions Stuart Campbell chooses for his poll –

      They make a good poultice –

      Drawing out unionist poison 🙂

    186. Giving Goose says:

      Terry callachan

      It occurred to me that instead of shutting down
      Holyrood, Westminster could simply order the loyal unionist members to either boycot the chamber or to sit elsewhere in a faux protest. Nothing would surprise me.

      2 parallel parliaments.

      X1 with Scottish members.
      X1 with Brits loyal to Boris.

    187. Bob Costello says:

      This is simply hard facts and facts that SNP supporters are just not able to digest. If I was a double glazing salesman I would take a stall at the SNP conference regardless of cost. It would be the best investment ever

    188. Doug Bryce says:

      SNP will hold referendum even they believe it can be won.

      Wings Over Scotland certainly has lost dressing room and my support. Stu should stick to what he is best at (an effective media monitor).

    189. Capella says:

      @ dadsarmy – thx for the info about D Torrance being a clerk in the Commons Library. I was wondering how he spent his time in London.

      In spite of heroic efforts by some commenteers to convince us that the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon and this blog are a complete waste of time, I will carry on supporting all three until we win our independence. Soon.

      We knew it was going to be a bumpy ride. This week will be bumpier than most. Fastens seat belt.

    190. doug says:

      There IS a plan B currently in the works. Its just that they are trying not to draw attention to it, yet.

      https://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/Bills/111844.aspx

      Introduced years later than it should be, of course, but it is making its slow way through the Scottish Parliament’s process. Once passed it allows the Government in Scotland to have a non-binding referendum on anything it wants.

      If it becomes law, the Government in England can’t stop us holding a referendum on independence at a time of our own choosing. e.g. late 2020

    191. Heart of Galloway says:

      Ghillie@4.07 and 4.12am.

      Right on both counts.

      Stu, for the love of all that is holy can we swing this site back to the prize asset to the YES movement it once was?

      For a while now you have concentrated your fire on the SNP to the utter bemusement of present (and many former) contributors.

      This at a time when the UKOK media is going into overdrive in its attempts to weaken and sow dissension within the independence movement.

      Yet it appears that is what is being done on here.

      Pressuring the SNP to honour the IndyRef mandate is not only legitimate, it is essential.

      it’s a positive thing for the leadership to know that any backsliding at the front will not be tolerated.

      That’s what 200,000 people were doing joyously in Edinburgh on October 5 and is exactly what speaker after speaker, in a passionate and constructive fashion, were doing at conference yesterday.

      The SNP leadership is acutely aware of the task entrusted to them – and they will fulfill it.

      Stu, a while back you offered a bet that there would not be an IndyRef2 next year.

      I’ll take you up on that bet. I’ll wager £100 for the WBB2 fundraiser when you fire the starting gun on it.

    192. Terry says:

      WTF. Gerry fisher treated with disrespect. But worse – Chris mceleny booed when he walked on by front row. This is not representative of the yes movement. I left the snp cos of this sort of rubbish – a squeeze on debate, entryway and if your face fits. Unless Nicola has something up her sleeve then the snp will not return to holyrood. End of.

    193. sassenach says:

      The way the Rev is taking this site, I’m not altogether sure that the new WBB will actually do anything to help Indy!!

    194. Iain mhor says:

      @Dr Jim 11:51pm

      As I posted previously, “…beyond all legal challenge” is a mere variation of “Unchallengeable” and one of those in the list of ‘tells’ for me I’m afraid.
      “…such as: ‘Unarguable’, ‘Undeniable’, ‘Unquestionable’, ‘Undoubtable’, ‘Unchallengeable’ and anything with the exclamation ‘Fact’ in it.
      These and their variants, all mean much the same thing: ‘scrutinise everything this person just said, with an intense scrute…’ If uttered by a politician or lawyer, just assume it’s all a lie and work from there, it saves a lot of time”

      If I recall, the only way something can be made “Unchallengeable” in law, is to show it’s non-judiciable. Which ironically (if I remember recent events) first requires legal challenge. I believe that did not go well for the last person to try it.

      The Smith Commission isn’t legislation, the only legislation which applies is the Scotland Act 2016 and again (if I recall) a goodly part of the “agreements” and “recommendations” in the Smith Commission Report, did not find their way into that legislation.
      One thing that defines the Scotland Act 2016; is that the Scottish Government’s conferred powers, in their entirety, are quite explicitly held as gift and with permission of the UK Parliament & Crown.

      I’ll still applaud any attempt to try and claim ‘unchallengeable rights’ for Scotland, though and the language is firm, which is in itself admirable. That’s their job after all.

    195. Abulhaq says:

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17965924.yousaf-attacks-snps-all-white-westminster-candidate-list/
      Alas very ‘blanched’ in every sense of the term.
      Also very no Gaelic, no Scottis on platform signage I observe.
      SNP semiotics, all sensible shoes and pan loaf.
      Don’t scare the punters…..boooooring!

    196. Proud Cybernat says:

      When you don’t want your opponents to know what you might or might not do, what might be your next move – DENY EVERYTHING. Even god.

    197. Breeks says:

      cynicalHighlander says:
      14 October, 2019 at 1:57 am
      @Dr Jim

      Forget the spin trust is a two way thing and it has been a progressive downward spiral for a long time. Where are all the rebuttals promised by the deputy K Brown to the mince produced by the MSM nowhere they pander to them…

      Exactly.

      Anybody else detect a subtle wee change in the narrative? – A referendum is the ONLY legal way to secure Independence? Anybody who understands Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty knows that is SNP Gaslighting which Boris Johnson would be proud of.

      Do tell us all Nicola. What part of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty AND democratic rejection of Brexit is ‘unlawful?

      Everybody knows that Boris Johnson is just the expendable veneer trying to legitimise an exit from Europe so the UK’s grubby financial dealings are kept in the shadows. There has always been a hidden agenda behind Brexit. I increasingly feel the same about a Scottish Referendum which is determined to sail right past the open goal of a thoroughly unconstitutional Brexit which would leave the Union untenable. There is a similar rancid stink of hidden agenda.

      The YES movement needs to coalesce quickly around demanding a Scottish Constitutional Backstop before Brexit occurs, and be prepared to take the SNP to Court if that is what it takes. Vote for them? Well, they do say it’s important to have a sense of humour…

    198. Abulhaq says:

      SNP branching out
      https://m.facebook.com/SNPHQ/posts/1463920033750647
      Great cakes! At least.

    199. robertknight says:

      Breeks…

      As I’ve stated, I strongly suspect the FM has been told categorically by the EU that the ONLY way to an Indy Scotland being admitted to the EU is via IndyRef2.

      This has nothing to do with Scotland’s internal constitutional standing but everything to do with Spain recognising the result as legal and constitutional.

      The Spanish are busy handing out double-digit prison sentences to Catalan politicians. They will never countenance any application to join the EU from us unless we do so having completed a process the Spanish recognise as legal and constitutional – as was their opinion of IndyRef1.

      The FM is afforded no wiggle room on this. Without IndyRef2, Spain will view Indy Scotland as it does Kosovo. She will not blow the prospects of our EU membership and she cannot spell this out whilst the UK remains an EU member state for obvious reasons.

    200. frogesque says:

      Dear Nicola.

      Please get on with the day job, the back shift and the night shift you were elected to do.

      Good governance is admirable but Independence is the SNPs whole reason for being.

      Yours
      1812877

    201. Abulhaq says:

      Under Sturgeon the SNP has been all belt & braces strategy, stop brexit and UK style legalistic rhetoric, democracy shamocracy.
      A GE is likely, make that THE independence referendum and leave Brexit stuff to the Brits.
      The UK’s in a mess says NS….so enjoy!

    202. SNP MEGA BAAD in the press today…

      only in Scotland!

    203. galamcennalath says:

      Alas, on WoS it is becoming difficult to distinguish forthright, honest, and well meaning criticism from friends …. from attempts to undermine, deflect, and cause friction by the agents of our enemies. That is not a good situation to be in. Heaven knows what any visiting undecided folk think of it all.

    204. Effijy says:

      Rev, too many people on your case.
      Are they here just for the sake of stirring things up.

      I think I can feel some extra tension in your posts just now as things heat up
      and we stand in the threshold of Scottish History.

      I’m sure I’d have gone mad if it wasn’t for you and this site.
      I also know I couldn’t lace your boots as a journalist nor have your resilience
      As all of the corrupt Westminster agencies attack you and try to bring you down.

      Just a note to say thank you and please keep a steady nerve as I think we are roughly 1 week away
      From major changes in Scottish Politics and we need you more than ever.

      For anyone on the Rev’s case, would you or anyone you know be able to support a site of this quality? Do you think you would take all this flak from all corners for what can’t be much more than a minimum wage with no assurance of employment in the coming months?

      Of course you can question and discuss in the Rev’s posts but can you try to remember the points above and be courteous and constructive.

      Thank You!

    205. Cubby says:

      Bob Mack@12.31am

      Bob my question said IF Wings was a political party. That means in the future. So you answer as at the present situation. So you do not answer the question I posed but then make an accusation about my honesty. You are way off the mark here Bob. If you don’t want to answer my question fine just ignore it but why answer in the way you did.

      Bob you are better than this.

    206. Cubby says:

      Bob Mack@12.34pm

      Bob you are better than this. I’ve no idea why you posted this comment about me.

    207. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ galamcennalath

      Just keep doing your own thing (which you do very well). Write your positive posts about indy and let the 77th (and their little BritNat acolytes) do their worst – it’s just not going to work for them. Every poll over the last year has shown an increasing demand for Indy. That’s how effective they are. In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me in the least that some of the 77th themselves harbour thoughts that Scotland would be better going its own way. Don’t you boys and gals.

    208. Heidstaethefire says:

      “If the U.K. government continues to refuse……” This entire article is premised on a loaded question framed to produce an answer which fits the theory. This site would, quite rightly, be down the throats of any union supporting psalter which tried that. Disappointed, Stuart.

    209. Heidstaethefire says:

      Sorry. “……union supporting paper….”

    210. HandandShrimp says:

      I see the Spanish judiciary are set on stoking the fires of Catalan independence. Repression is never successful in the longer term. It is the last act of the passion play.

    211. Terry callachan says:

      SNP are the only party that will get you Scottish independence
      Nicola Sturgeon is doing a fantastic job in extremely difficult circumstances

    212. Proud Cybernat says:

      FFS – those of you having faux bun fights with each other. It’s so fucking transparent. You’re fooling no one so just give it a rest and pack up your kit bags and feck off elsewhere. Aye – you know who you are. And so do we.

    213. HYUFD says:

      Spain’s Supreme Court sentences 9 Catalan nationalist leaders to between 9 and 13 years in jail for holding an unauthorised referendum on Catalan independence from Spain

      https://www.euronews.com/2019/10/14/spanish-supreme-court-to-rule-whether-catalan-separatists-are-guilty-of-rebellion?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1571039928

    214. Cubby says:

      Galamcennalath@9.23am

      Spot on. For this reason I am seriously thinking of calling it a day to posting on Wings.

    215. robertknight says:

      News from Spain should leave no-one in any doubt that having recognised IndyRef1 as being both legal AND constitutional, IndyRef2 is the ONLY means by which Scotland can obtain Independence which will be recognised by Spain, and which will therefore facilitate our membership of the EU as an independent, sovereign State.

      UDI or some other road will satisfy nobody if it places us in the same league as Kosovo.

    216. bowanarrow says:

      The SNP are the ONE AND ONLY party that will recive my support.
      PLEASE STOP what you are doing.
      The hunger for power is starting to show it ugly
      face.

    217. Bob Mack says:

      @Proud Cybernat,

      Yes I harbour thoughts if an indy Scotland
      Sorry Captain Fortescue Smythe, but I hVe seen the light.Im changing my kevlar helmet for one just like Proud Cybernat wears. One made of tinfoil with two antenna to ward of radio waves.

      Hallelujah

    218. Bob Mack says:

      Why dont you all find an alternative site? There must be an SNP fanzine somewhere else wbere you can comfort each other with nonsense.

      Im sure Stu will survive

    219. Roger Hyam says:

      “the party’s policy of sticking exclusively to “Plan A” – asking Westminster over and over for permission to hold a second referendum until at some point it inexplicably caves in” – is that really SNP policy? You used to be so factual Stu.

      I thought the policy was that only a legal referendum was the way forward. She is going to ask for a Section 30 “soon”. They haven’t actually said what happens if it is turned down other than whatever happens has to be legal or we won’t get support from other nations – c.f. Catalonia.

      I still read this site but I’m beginning to read it in the same way as I read the Herald. I give up halfway through articles because you have said something that has crossed the line to being untrue.

    220. Tony Little says:

      @Roger Hyam:

      If someone can explain to me what a “Legal Referendum” is, then I might have some faith in the current strategy of the SNP/SG. There is no *Requirement* for a s30 order before holding a referendum. Or are we to suppose that the UK position is the same as Spain’s and that they’ll send in the troops if the SG has the temerity to seek an advisory referendum without an s30?

    221. mike cassidy says:

      Oh, great!

      Our independence is entirely dependent on the means by which we secure it

      being approved by those great lovers of democracy

      Spain.

      O me miserum, indeed.

    222. ScotsRenewables says:

      So many Massey Fergusons and John Deeres posing as outraged SNP voters/Indy supporters on here. Transparent fools.

      No idea what the rev is up to, but I am hoping the primary motive is to put pressure on the SNP to boot up Plan A immediately so that whatever happens we are at least officially engaged with the process, rather than just grinding our gears. Suspect he is off Nicola’s Christmas card list tho’

      My sister in law is at conference. She finds the idea that there should be ANY talk of plan B before the expiry of Plan A laughably naive after what happened last time. Short memories, people.

    223. HandandShrimp says:

      In other news I see the Kurds have struck a deal with Assad/Russia in order to fend off Turkey. Master stroke by Trump there.

    224. gus1940 says:

      Oh for the days when Wings was primarily dedicated to the dismantling of the lies vomited over us daily by the WM swamp and their cheerleaders in the MSM.

      The current Divide and Rule Campaign against The SNP being waged by Stu is deeply distressing and seems to be doing WM’s job for them.

      Not only that but he seems to be doing a very good job of waging Divide and Rule against the legion of Wings supporters including those like myself who have chipped in regularly to all the fundraisers.

      The Guys In The Black Hats must be loving what appears to be the pressing of a potential self destruct button on the credibility of Wings.

    225. Clydebuilt says:

      Meg Merilees @ 9.28am

      “SNP MEGA BAAD in the press today…….

      Only in Scotland ”

      Meg . . .
      The SNP are MEGA BAAD according to this site also

      Spreading division in the SNP, and damaging the party appears to be this site’s main purpose these days. . . . . At a time when things are moving our way.

      Seems to have kicked off after the Interview on RT with Alex Salmond.

    226. Cubby says:

      Sad that the Spanish people are not demonstrating against these atrocious sentences.

      Political prisoners in Spain. Democracy is under attack.

    227. Bob Mack says:

      Why dont you SNP apostles find another site where you can use a collective blindfold, and comfort each other in whtever truth you wish ?

      I mean Stu is way out of line here. ImAgine ,he is paid by us to tel! the truth( with the exception of the SNP)of course.

      The same SNP who refused to back him publicly. The same SNP who took sides against Stu in a court case The same SNP who have benefited by Stus efforts on indy and the WBB.

      Stu has suddenly went from hero to zero.Threatened and bullied and harassed by former contributors. Accused of being an enemy or being in the pay of MI5. Accused.of having his own political aspirations at the cost to the SNP.Acused of being a tractor.

      His crime? He dared to criticise the SNP and Nicola. The bar steward.

      You guys have some serious issues. I really do mean that.

    228. ‘I do not have to prove the Singularity,’ says the atheist,’ for it is a theory, and without theories, I am nothing.’

      We can all play with words.

      Has Salmond been appointed as WoS’ consigliere?
      Is he the Rev’s Tom Hagen following their wee chat on RT?
      This quite unsophisticated and unwarranted attack on Sturgeon stinks, to the High Heavens however they were created.

      “This is the way the WoS ends, not with a bang but a whimper.” ~ with a nod in the direction of T.S. Eliot.

      Can we stop all this nonsense now?
      In two of the most important weeks in the history of these Isles it is reported that the ERG and the DUP Creationists have rejected Johnson’s Bluff, as we all expected, and Johnson planned for.

      He is determined to eat up the precious days faffing about until it’s too late.
      ‘Fuck business’ indeed.

      Meanwhile they wheel out Auld Lizzie in her jewels to front a PPB for the Right Wing Junta.

      Get back in the saddle, Stu, for all our sakes.

    229. Heart of Galloway says:

      Breeks@8.57am

      “The YES movement needs to coalesce quickly around demanding a Scottish Constitutional Backstop before Brexit occurs, and be prepared to take the SNP to Court if that is what it takes.”

      Says a supporter of independence.

      Breeks, I asked you before and I’ll ask you again: with respect and for our enlightenment, define what a Scottish constitutional backstop is, how it would be given authority (through possibly 3 courts (CoS, SC and ECJ) and by what means a Boris Johnson gov would honour it.

      I have already suggested, partly, what I think you may mean, but I am not a mind reader.

      Until such time as you flesh out your solution, you have zero credibility. You may still have zero after doing so but at least we will have something to go on.

    230. Stuart MacKay says:

      Everybody is getting bent out of shape for no reason and instead you should be paying attention to the “comforting lies, unpleasant truths” cartoon.

      The Rev. is doing everybody an enormous service. If the polls are accurate and from the sample size and basic breakdown of the people who took part that seems a reasonable assumption then it’s clear that the SNP is rather a broad church.

      The SNP have, through good governance, probably painted themselves into a corner. Clearly they an deliver a well-run Scotland but a decent number of their supporters would be quite content if more powers were devolved and things stayed much the way they are now. It would be great if everybody was champing at the bit for independence but that apparently is not the case.

      It is important that all this is out out there because if you don’t know where you stand then your next step is going find you flat on your face.

    231. robertknight says:

      There are a dozen people posting on here who, frankly, couldn’t agree on the colour of shite and are attempting to convolute their bun-fight into some crisis of confidence within the Indy movement or, dare I suggest, a civil war within the SNP.

      Get a grip will you, collectively you’re really not that important.

      It’s sunny outside – go get some air.

    232. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Terrible times for the good people of Catalonia.

      We must refuse to visit Spain or buy any Spanish produce until the political prisoners are released.

    233. Socrates MacSporran says:

      There you have it – the very first thing HM said in “Her” speech.

      “My Government will leave the EU on 31 October.

      Ian Blackford and the other SNP MPs have always maintained: “We will prevent Scotland being dragged out of the EU against our will.”

      Well, they now have 17 days in which to do this, because, if we leave then, or even (long shot) De Piffle obeys the law and we get an extension until say the end of January – we will have been dragged out of the EU against our will and Blackford & Co will have lied.

      So: WHAT’S THE PLAN NOW?

      Repeatedly asking for a Section 30 order, which none of the Unionist parties has ever shown the least inclination to allow, will not cut it.

      The speech, by the way, was a load of bollocks.

      And finally, what we are seeing on Wings, and within the Independence movemtns in general is the same-old, same-old: we are giving England an easy ride, by arguing among ourselves.

      Stop the in-fighting and concentrate on the big idea – Independence.

      And Rev, that means you and James Kelly stopping acting like a pair of spoiled kids. FFS Kiss and Make Up. We need you singing from the same hymn sheet.

    234. callmedave says:

      Not the crowded throngs on the pavements of London for Queenie nowadays, more soldiers on horses than bystanders. 🙂

      “My Government will”..continue to run the country into the ground!

    235. Grey Gull says:

      Joanna Cherry on the BBC just now. When asked for a sentence to sum up the proceedings today she said, “ A meaningless and expensive distraction from the broken politics of Brexit Britain”. Despite all the infighting going on here at the moment, I don’t think anyone could disagree with that.

    236. ian says:

      I have to agree with a number of posters things are not what they were.There’s a poor vibe on this site which is’nt encouraging or uplifting.I’m afraid its coming mainly from the site owner far to many battles being fought on a personal level and the general tone of the language, the c word and telling people to f..k of.None of this will convert anyone to the central cause of independence.
      I’m afraid at the moment i will not be contributing to any further fund raisers for this site unless it returns to what it was good at.

    237. Abulhaq says:

      What is so telling about the so called UKGB&NI in its modish obsession with ‘diversity’ is that expressions of cultural difference among the autochthonous peoples of the state have always had to do homage, kowtow before the socio-cultural tyranny excercised by the elitist anglophone caste and its minions controlling the British state.
      The theme is, be as diverse (and deviant) as you like but remember guys you’re privileged Brits first and last. All are welcome but we manipulate this game by our well-tried, self-serving ancient rules. Do not take our laid back ‘indifference’ for tolerance.
      Do as we do OK, do as you do and we will bury you.
      I trust an independent Scotland, should it materialise, will handle differences with more skill and imagination.
      Scotland must not ape the imperialist, exceptionalist cultural conceits of the old dispensation as so many post colonial states have done.
      Independence day should be reboot, restart, new thinking day.
      British hypocrisy we can do without.

    238. galamcennalath says:

      Gfaetheblock says:

      Interesting post on path to Indy from prof Curtis

      He seems to have a perceptional problem with the YES side. Many/most things in his article which say “SNP” should more accurately say “Scottish Parliament” or even “pro Indy majority in the SP”.

      That rings alarm bells in my head. Strikes me as being tainted by the BritNat argument “it’s all about the SNP”.

      It’s “the SNP who want independence”. But that’s only part of the story especially we are the verge of it becoming clear “Scotland wants independence”.

      Yes, the SNP are the party of government but the narrow focus on the party rather than the wider political reality, shows an undertone of pro Union bias IMO. Curtis just can’t help himself.

    239. Bob Mack says:

      @Ian.

      Goodbye.

    240. X_Sticks says:

      Diving in here to give Independence Live. They are struggling to make it for their crowdfunder.

      PLease, please give what you can. Without them you’d never see an indy rally or an indy debate unless you were there. If you’ve ever watched an IndyLive then please make a donation.

      https://indylive.radio/donation-confirmation-3/

    241. HandandShrimp says:

      Robertknight

      My thoughts exactly. Just had a lovely walk with the pooch. Way too much angst below the line at the moment. It will be interesting to see which posters currently sowing so much confusion will rally behind an Indyref once we have something to unite us and which will disappear like snow off a duke (as my autocorrect likes to say) and back to their green ink choooms. I saw that the SiU were discombobulated by the Times poll. Laughingly tried to say that the Union protected the poor…while the Tories toy with raising the retirement age to 75. The Union ties our ankles to a shower of heartless bastards more like.

    242. RobertTheTruth says:

      If you feel the purpose of this site has been to act as a cheerleader for any party you have wandered into the wrong corner of the internet.

      It has always been to promote Independence for Scotland and to hold those who would misrepresent the case for Independence to account.

      Holding the site owner to ransom by threat of withholding financial or other support is up to you but I doubt it will change anything. As others have said if you just want to hear how great the SNP are then there are other places that provide that safe space.

      The Rev provides the articles. If you agree or disagree fine but the idea you can demand that other people censor their opinions to appease your beliefs or relieve your anxiety is ludicrous.

      Similarly, in demanding that the remit of the site is only articles criticizing the MSM be you are trying to control what someone else writes about. If that is your focus and that focus of your 2 Minute Hate has now moved to the Rev then it appears you are the ones mistaken in what promoting Independence entails.

    243. Roger Hyam says:

      @Tony Little A “Legal Referendum” is one the yoons don’t boycott and the French, Germans, Spanish etc will recognise the result of. It is the difference between a wonderful heroic failure by a bunch of people feeling righteous/bitter and actually creating an independent state that the majority of the populus get behind.

      I don’t know what comes when they turn down the next Section 30 order. Nicola has the ball and it is up to her just now. Maybe she will mess it up. Maybe not. But the trick is to be able to pick the ball up if she drops it and avoid doing anything that will trip her up when she is about to score. There is a bit too much of the latter going on at the moment.

    244. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi X_Sticks.

      Here’s the correct url for the Indylive crowdfunder:-

      https://indylive.radio/support-indylive/

    245. John Thomson says:

      People people stop getting your knickers in a twist, we all know the greens are at it and with this extinction rebellion and wee Greta on the march hoping to gain votes, we need to be solid and United. Quit the bickering and get behind the plan.

      Vote SNP 1 WINGS 2 you all know it makes sense, we will have an almighty majority but only if we come together.

      28th Nov remember your YES stones and stay strong.

      Remember Catalonian prisoners and let’s do this right and legal.

      We are all individuals who must come together for the good of our kids and those who follow.

    246. Scozzie says:

      Been saying for months the SNP will kick their mandate into the 2021 HR elections. If they had an appetite for an indyref they’d be gunning for it now while WM is in chaos.

      The conference agenda tells us all we needs to know, it’s like 2017 on playback – don’t mention the ‘i’ word.

      The fact that El Gordo hasn’t been paraded on TV suggests that even the Establishment don’t anticipate an imminent strategic move from the SNP.

      I hope to be pleasantly surprised by Nicola’s conference speech but my cynical side thinks it will just be more platitudes.

    247. Bob Mack says:

      This thread is just so interesting from a Psychology perspective. Its classic attack of anyone who dares criticise a firmly held belief.

      Yet, the Rev is an independence supporter through and through. The only reaxon is his criticism of ghe SNP on one main issue

      We all know that at the very least he will back indy to the end.

      That doesnt appear go be good dnough. He must give up his personal view to suit others and especially their view on a certain political party. That is cOncerning. That is the road to populism.

      Hold your view, but challenge your need to try and punish somebody for having a different one. Seriously.

    248. Mist001 says:

      I think todays news from Spain will put the frighteners on anybody in the SNP who dares to think about UDI, so we can forget that option. That certainly won’t be ‘Plan B’.

      As for me, I’ve done a bit of thinking and I swore blind that the SNP would never get my vote again so long as Sturgeon was in charge but…………there’s no other options out there, so come the GE/Inyref2/ whatever, I’m just going to have to give my vote to the SNP.

      And BTW for the whingers, The Rev has NEVER claimed nor stated that he would start a political party to rival the SNP. He simply floated an idea and put it out for discussion and that’s it, so I think you should cut him some slack.

    249. Abulhaq says:

      What we are up against?
      This is the book to enlighten you.
      https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/sep/11/anarchy-relentless-rise-east-india-company-william-darymple-review
      Was Scotland a dry run? All sounds rather familiar.
      Does Brexit signal the return to predatory anglo-saxon attitudes?
      Are we really prepared?

    250. X_Sticks says:

      @Brian,

      Cheers bud!

    251. Och, that poor lass, Catriona Shearer had to mouth the words of the ‘Government Officials’ that the ‘vast majority’ of the bills announced in the queen’s speech (an obscene Elite diamond and gilt farce of a ritual in Food Bank England) will apply to Scotland.

      Then over to David Porter on the Green to give us some sound bites for the Yoon viewers.

      None of this Blue Tory toss applies in Scotland.

      Auld Lizzie opened by announcing that her Government will leave the EU on 31st October.
      She lost Scotland right there.
      We Scots didn’t vote to leave.

      Health, Education, Law and Order, Infrastructure spending, all English; indeed, Lizzie gave ‘England’ a mention twice, as she dithered through this PPB for Johnson and the Eton Boys.

      It was like listening to your great granny mumbling over Christmas dinner about the days when a tangerine wrapped in tin foil was a great present.

      The woman is clearly old and frail, and had no conviction in her voice as she trotted out this clearly English manifesto of the Far Right Junta.

      HS2 stretching from Liverpool via Manchester and across to Leeds and then up to Newcastle.(Don’t hold your breath, Newcastle.)

      More money for English schools, more money for NHS England (less cuts), 20,000 more English bobbies, supplemented by some of Scotland’s Finest when they need to bash the heads of Schoolchildren and retired district nurses protesting Global Warming.

      Immigration bill shutting the door to Johnny Foreigner and holding Scotland under house arrest for eternity ..

      I could go on, but Stu does this so much better, or used to.

      Catriona, there is nothing in the Blue Tory manifesto for Scotland, as Sub-Lieutenant Andrew Bowie demonstrated as he sat beside Joanne Cherry in the studio, slowly melting into a greasy spot on the chair while Cherry starred for Scotland as usual.
      The Baker’s Dozen Blue Tories days are well and truly numbered if they tout this English Tory toss about Scotland during the UK GE.

    252. Abulhaq says:

      Why do some people think that demanding the SNP leadership get on with the job is ‘unpatriotic’? To assume the leadership is beyond critique is rather naïve.
      To fail to see the nasty wasps buzzing around the jam pot equally so.

    253. Gary says:

      I think Sturgeon may be relying on a ‘technicality’ on that she didn’t formally request the Section 30 as May said ‘No is not the time’ prior to anything more formal. Effectively it makes no difference but it’s a nice bit of PR from somone who found a ‘loophole’ in the exact wording. No lies, but not truthful either…

      But today I see that the BBC is reporting on those ‘bad’ “separatists” in Catalan who had the temerity to hold a democratic vote on Independence for their country, then the absolute CHEEK to honour the result be declaring UDI when the government of Spain refused to acknowledge it or discuss anything whatever with them. The longest sentence is THIRTEEN YEARS (they didn’t give other details except to say that Puidgmont has an EU warrant out for him) So the government, via it’s mouthpiece the BBC, is firing a warning shot across the bows of those of us who would dearly love Scotland to do the same ie referendum followed by UDI.

      Notable though is the complete lack of ANY EU country honouring the arrest warrants for those of the Catalan government who are in exile. Although they obviously see this is political and that those being jailed really ARE political prisoners they haven’t gone so far as to either physically intervene or have the guts to speak out about it. Gutless, spineless and cowardly EU is allowing one of it’s own to hold political prisoners. Of course, the UK did the same way back in the 70s (and even WE called them political prisoners – they were granted extra prison privileges precisely because of that too!) and the EEC, s it was then, did nothing then either.

      So, we live in a modern world where ‘that kind of thing doesn’t happen any more’ (so we are always told) except it DOES.

      As I learned in many years of the Civil Service NO politician has a ‘Plan B’ In fact most of them don’t even have a ‘Plan A’ They think no further than winning the next vote or the next election (and even then they only think about that JUST prior to it)

      Would SNP ever think of declaring UDI on the back of what UK Gov would call an ‘illegal poll’? No, I doubt it. Would UK Gov do exactly what Spain did ie violently attack polling stations with their police brought in from outside? Then close Holyrood (temporarily) and jail the Scottish Government? Would they do all of that? They would do it differently but they’d do it all the same. Think back to the Miner’s Strike, that bit of footing we ALWAYS see from the BBC where the miners attack the cops then the cops respond with a horseback charge, THAT footage is doctored, the BBC has ALREADY been fined for showing it as it has been proved beyond a doubt that the doctoring was done for political reasons but STILL they show it. The govt via the BBC ‘own’ the ‘truth’

      Back then (miners strike) there were many on uniform without their numbers on (a common practise for Maggie’s boot boys) but, having spoken to those who were there (on the POLICE side) they reckoned that many of the most violet police were NOT police officers. Those long enough in the tooth reckoned them to be soldiers drafted in and put in uniform to deliberately attack and provoke violence, their tactics went beyond even ‘normal’ police brutality. Maybe I’m digressing, maybe not.

      The vote would be called purely advisory by SNP (if it WERE held) but this would definitely be misrepresented in the newspapers and TV news. Anyone reporting differently would be considered ‘fringe’ and get no publicity. After that a ‘friendly’ judge would declare it illegal. They could tie up the SNP in legal cases for years, none of which would be reported until inevitably they lost. If they chose to go ahead with it they could be prevented from accessing voter records, prevented from accessing polling station, prevented from giving the schools a day off etc etc. So many ways to nip it in the bud.

      Remember George Square the night of the Indy result? A few Indy supporters gathered to lick their wounds but to hold their heads high. Unionist thugs had brought knives and hammers and attacked them. This was reported as ‘fighting between’ instead of an organised, premeditated attack. One or two thugs were, eventually, brought to ‘justice’ whilst the rest crawled back under their rocks. There’s no need for heavy police tactics when the Orange Order’s thugs can be deployed. If they don’t mind glassing a wee girl in Glasgow Green then they won’t mind attacking innocent adult voters. This again will be reported as ‘fighting between’ THEN the police will be called in to close down polling stations for ‘public safety’ People will be made GLAD to see them.

      This isn’t a battle of the voting booth, this is a battle where UK Gov has to be SO politically cornered that it HAS to allow us to vote for Indy. They have to be SO embarrassed that they can do nothing else. Public support for Indy has to be MASSIVE, print news has to START supporting it and we have to plug away with our complaints to the Ombudsman etc ensuring that TV news can’t get away with their blatant bias. ONE thing that the SNP support on court actions over Brexit has done is to get SNP MPs on the telly as something OTHER than ‘SNP bad’ They have been reported in a positive light as, for once, they are aligned with the established way of thinking. This is a start. Aligning with the establishment is a dangerous game however, look at Manny Shinwell, from firebrand socialist caught up in the attack (NOT riots) by the army on innocent civilians in George Sq (coincidence?) with the Red Clyde to establishment ermine-wearer. Utterly neutralised by some fur and a title…

      Stu, if there was an easy answer it’d have been done by now. for the first time EVER a majority of Scots voters want Indy, this is our STARTING POINT for an Indy campaign when there IS a vote. Last time it went up from the 20% (ish) to 45% at the result. In a similar campaign, if we did the same we could have 75% and victory. Look at the result for Devolution, in the 70% region (75% I think) purely because it was a Labour idea and therefore people went along with it. People need to know Indy is NOT ‘fringe’ and that it is utterly mainstream. THAT is what we need to do. They’re right, calling for UDI (right now) IS a Unionist Trap. Don’t underestimate the vileness or deviousness of them. It’s NOT the government (specifically) doing this, it’s those who work for them. THEY ARE the kind of people who infiltrate and report back, hold positions of authority that place them above suspicion. The dirty tricks mob who work for UK Gov are above nothing. Remember the under cover cops who had families and abandoned them? These people are WORSE…

    254. I just donated to Phantom power https://www.gofundme.com/f/future-scotland

      and Indylive too https://indylive.radio/support-indylive/

      ignore all this rubbish and contribute to moving forward positively

    255. Gary says:

      @ Gary 2:44pm above,
      My name sake……. Spot on!!
      I wish the SNP and the Yes movement would start calling out the Unionist media more! Maybe with more legal action. Site’s like this are so needed.

    256. dadsarmy says:

      Queen’s Speech: ““The integrity and prosperity of the Union that binds the four nations of the United Kingdom together …”

      Like a ball and chain. Or a thorn in my side:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AmkmqYEarw

    257. Gary says:

      And regarding Catalonia….. F*CK the EU!! Spineless cowards who will protect the ‘Club’ and spout hypocracy on human rights, peace and democracy!
      They tweet critique of the actions against protesters in Hong Kong but ignore whats happening to EU members!
      Politcal prisinors in the EU?
      F*Ck the EU… get independence then do what Norway does!

      And for ANY half witt who thinks the EU would honour the aspirations of Scotland, Catalonia or any other nation seeking its democratic right ot independence… just look at the jail terms handed out to the catalan prisioners today. They want the big member state club wich is easier to control than several smaller states.
      Yep… F*Ck the EU!!!!!

    258. dadsarmy says:

      “Run run run run … is all that I could do”.

    259. defo says:

      It actually works Jack.
      There’s going to be a reaction in Catalonia, and then the counter reaction from Madrid. If nobody supports the Catalans, Madrid will do their worst, and this will set the template for the fascists everywhere. Home, and abroad.

    260. callmedave says:

      Ah! Blackford cut off again by Auntie who knows best in the Q’speech debate. Better not to alarm any viewrs darn Sarf.

      Anyhoo! Promise of a new poll says Rev.

    261. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Scozzie @ 14:07,

      Well, I disagree. Maybe there’s a psychological advantage in being pessimistic, since then you get your disappointment in early (!), but I prefer to be an optimist, and reserve my possible regrets for when they’re actually justified. I believe we’ll see some action very soon now, and for good reason. My only concern is that it gets under way before the inevitable long-dreaded Brexit becomes normalised in the minds of ordinary folk. I think to let that all pass as a mere “nuisance” in some dusty long-term plan would be to “miss the bus” in an extraordinarily inept way.

      I was saying upthread that it was likely to happen after a UKGE has first been got out of the way, since that was likely to happen soon anyway and would remove it from being used by London as a deliberate distraction tactic (as I suspect it was in part by May in 2017, to her ultimate regret), but that’s not to say that it should be used as an excuse to further delay the necessary consultation with the people of Scotland.

      I would like to see IR2 no later than next Spring at the very latest. (Now when is the 700th anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath again…? =grin=)

    262. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      What’s happening with these show trials in Spain is a rank democratic affront of the first order (with as yet unpredictable consequences), but what we don’t need is the predictable gaggle of angry distractionists using this to muddy the waters of Scottish independence. Our route is thankfully less rocky, and as a fully-sovereign country we can do the Catalans far more good than allowing the issue to divert us pointlessly from our own prime purpose.

    263. Ghillie says:

      BM

      How amusing that you now suggest that SNP supporters should abandon Wings =)

      WE are made of sterner stuff.

    264. Bob Mack says:

      @Ghillie,

      Sterner stuff? If only. you are as pliable as any Unionist could wish for. Compliant,easily manipulated, Wi!ling to make the majority view your own.

      The Rev needs free thinkers, not carbon copies

    265. dadsarmy says:

      @callmedave
      I suspect PanelBase told the Rev to BOGOF and he said yes please.

    266. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Mist001 @ 16:40,

      Well, of course. Entirely predictable. After all, the constitutional issue lies at the very heart of this, and due process has two advantages: it exposes the hollowness of the BritNat position in a forum where fakery is unsustainable, and it rallies popular support as our true constitutional position is revealed to the previously-unaware.

      Breeks will be pleased. (Hopefully. =grin=)

    267. JMD says:

      Haven’t read all of this thread yet so don’t know if it’s already been mentioned but just want to chuck in a little comment here, not even sure how relevant it is but with reference to increasing support for indy despite all the angst here and elsewhere people seem to have forgotten that a poll on Scottish indy was held recently and the WM regime refused to publish the result.

      Now why would that be?

    268. Ian B says:

      Bob Mack @ 10.56am

      You’re priceless.

      You’re the one with issues or, at least, an issue. Your head is stuck so far Rev Stu’s arse you can’t think for yourself anymore.

    269. dadsarmy says:

      From that inews article (similar elsewhere):

      “Sturgeon’s preferred ‘Plan B’ is more likely to be a legal challenge, with a Scottish court asked to rule on the legitimacy of PM’s refusal”

      “Plan B”.

      I’ve got to make a wee point here, that any legal challenge even to an S30 and Edinburgh Agreement, is all part of any Plan A. You allow for problems with it.

      Similar to beeding a loaf of bread, your plan A is to go and buy one, not try shop A and if they don’t have any Plan B being Shop B, Plan C etc.

      Your Plan B is to use pasta or starve 🙂

    270. Bob Mack says:

      @Ian B

      Better up Stus ass than your own ,like you.

    271. dadsarmy says:

      “needing”! Mind you, beeding a loaf of bread is great fun, helps to pass the time at sea.

    272. Robert Louis says:

      Spain can no longer be called a democracy. The people of Spain should be ashamed at what is being done in their names, and yet they are not. They have learnt nothing following Franco. They too, are a disgrace.

      The spirit of Antonio Tejero, lives on. Fascist Spain.

      Their puppet courts and media (which really is a joke) have shown themselves to be complicit in anti democracy aggressive abuse of the people and government of Catalunya.

      Boycott Spain. It is that simply. In every possible way.

      Yes still visit Catalunya, but NEVER Spain, and that especially includes the Spanish costas or Canary Islands for holidays. Portugal has beaches which are possibly nicer anyway. Boycoot any Spanish companies, or those who support Spain, including Spanish Airlines and British Airways, whose parent company owns Iberia the Spanish flag carrier.

      Companies who partner with the likes of Real Madrid, should also be boycotted and reminded just what kind of low-lives they are supporting. Thinking of you, Hankook tyres.

      Spain must not be allowed to continue as before. They must always be referred to as a corrupt abusive state, and they MUST be boycotted.

      I look around and see NO government in the EU willing to stand up to fascist spain. None. What a disgrace.

      Where are you France? Germany? Italy? Denmark? Norway? Why so silent? ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing’. Is this ok? Angela Merkel?

      Spain and its fascist leaders, courts, media and supporters need reminded on each and every occasion, of the evil they have done to Catalunya today and for the last hundred years.

      Support Catalunya, boycott Spain.

    273. dadsarmy says:

      We’re going to need more bog roll.

    274. Bob Mack says:

      @Dadsarmy,

      Is plan A not to grow the wheat first?

    275. Ghillie says:

      Oh you silly wee boy BM.

      I think you will find Stuart Campbell sees through you too =)

    276. dadsarmy says:

      @Bob Mack “Is plan A not to grow the wheat first?

      The time it’s taking, maybe. Soon be harvest time …

    277. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Louis @ 17:05,

      I refer you to my comment at 16:27. This kind of unfocussed ranting against everything gets us nowhere. We can’t solve all of the world’s problems. Save your energy for what we can do for ourselves in the here and now. Isn’t that more than enough already?

    278. Ali says:

      Asking voters to declare independence based on a Holyrood or Westminster election seems like a good idea for boosting the votes of unionist parties.

      Unless we’re panicking that we’ll miss the one brief moment when the scales tip marginally over 50% then the right thing to do is to continue to make the case and watch public perception change until it’s inescapable. We may already be past the tipping point. If we can’t make the case then what we’re saying is that the future is one of a majority of people being unionist, in which case hasn’t been made and Scotland shouldn’t separate.

      At one point polling for independence didn’t get much over 25% Devolution was supposed to spike the guns of independence but it didn’t. Then in one fell swoop it moved to a solid 45%. Now we are edging over 50% If you’d told me that ten years ago I’d have thought you were mental. But in history 10 years is a very, very short time.

      When you’are edging inexorably towards the try line you don’t suddenly lose the head and lump the ball out wide. There’s no final whistle here.

    279. Robert Louis says:

      Robert J Sutherland.

      Hmmm… It isn’t your site, is it? Unless Stuart Campbell objects, I shall continue to express my views, as I choose.

      Your kind of frankly patronising commentary, probably achieves very little too.

      Boycott fascist Spain and its commercial allies and supporters, support Catalunya.

    280. Colin Alexander says:

      robert knight

      Q. What’s Spanish constitutional law got to do with Scotland or the UK?

      Answer: Heehaw.
      —————————————–
      Anyone point me to the part of the UK constitution / constitutional law where it defines the legal methods of Scotland dissolving the Union?

      Bet you can’t. There is no law on that matter.

      Nicola Sturgeon, as a former lawyer knows about the law. So, why no specific legal references when she talks about “legally” obtaining independence? Why just vague assertions about “legal”?

      Is it cos she is talking mince?

    281. Terry callachan says:

      Colin Alexander

      You don’t need specific laws about dissolving a union to dissolve a union.

      There are no specific laws that say the union cannot be dissolved either

      But there are legal implication if trying to impose dissolution on a majority who do not want it

      Having a majority in favour of dissolution , declaring dissolution and implementing it is the way to do it

    282. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Look peeps…

      All this mention of “UDI” is deflection from the actual situation Scotland is in.

      A Unilateral Declaration of Independence is when a part of a “country” declares independence from the “mother” country.

      Scotland is an equal partner in a union. It is not a part of England so it can’t declare independence from England.

      England is the other partner in the union. This union depends on both partners being willing to let it continue to exist. If sovereign Scots decide that Scotland should withdraw from that union, then it is not UDI.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unilateral_declaration_of_independence

    283. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Louis @ 17:38,

      With all that’s bad going on in the world at the moment, not least with the Kurds, don’t you ever get the feeling of outrage overload, RL? Or can you just never get enough of it?

      It’s not a case of being “patronising”, I just don’t see the point of another round of energy-sapping O/T virtue signalling about things that are never going to happen (UK boycott of Spain? sheesh!), when with independence never closer, all effort focussed on that practical end would surely be the most productive use of all our energies, no?

    284. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I’m sure a lot of the lettuce in our supermarkets comes from Spain.

      Jiss sayin’, like…

    285. Lennie says:

      We already know, thanks to Wings, that newspaper headlines are bullshit and bear little if any resemblance to the truth. No section 30 has been requested and using Britnat media headlines to make a case that there has been kinda negates any credibility to any case you are trying to present.

    286. Cubby says:

      6th of April 2020.

    287. Cubby says:

      For goodness same no one can be imprisoned in Scotland as a result of doing a UDI because as an existing sovereign nation in a Union Scotland by definition can not do a UDI.

      How many times does this have to be posted by many posters over the years.

    288. James Barr Gardner says:

      VOTE SNP 1 and WINGS PARTY 2 ! AND MAKE IT MASSIVE !

      Whose feet are now are now being held to the fire ?

    289. Iain More says:

      I would be more inclined to believe the SNP are on he right track and genuine about holding another Indy referendum if they hadn’t become just a stop Brexit Party and Sturgeon hadn’t been so wishy washy tame and had called Marr a bare faced liar about the Section 30 as he was.

    290. Eckle Fechan says:

      “Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.”

      Let’s see what this year’s leader’s keynote speech brings to the pyjama party.

      Then maybe we can make an up-to-date call on Blind Faith vs Willfull Blindness.

      The natives are restless though, North and South of the border.



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