Wings Over Scotland

Facts? Since when did they matter?

Just wait til the truths about the EU start to become impossible to ignore.

No-one is being well served by people being willfully ignorant. Too much emoting and not enough thinking

So , having read all this what comes to mind is this question

So what do you think SNP should do ?

You’ve said what you think they are doing and you have criticised their plan

But what do you say they should be doing that they are not doing ?

I’m with John Thomson above Vote SNP1 Wings2 You know it makes sense 🙂

If the SNP are committed to independence (I don’t think they are) and consider themselves to be a serious political party, then they have to start making big decisions. Scotland has been virtually decimated by unionist policies over the past years and it’s being openly acknowledged in this mornings media that Scotland is being ignored. This is becoming accepted fact.

So, they need to make a decision which is for the greater good of Scotland which is declaring independence full stop. Lot’s of people won’t like it and will object but you can’t please everyone but it has to be done, even if it’s just for saving Scotland from itself (which wouldn’t be too far off the mark).

The problem is that Sturgeon will never do this, so a change of leadership is required. Sturgeon, Murrell, Blackford all have to go. Recall the SNP from Westminster and make a UDI.

The shit will hit the fan but who said independence would be easy?

Q18 implies at least on more request to come in the futre, and we haven’t had that yet. So – it’s 49% in favour of asking for that section 30 order at least one more time

Which is precisely Plan A as announced so far. Note: Plan A CAN include the second option.

Hey, Aberdeen, you’re in the news today because the SNP are in town. Not the yoons, the SNP, the party that puts Scotland first.
Remember that next time we have any sort of public vote.

And you, Edinburgh .. the pretendy Capital, time to grow up.

That 49%, by the way, excluding don’t knows, works out at 57% excluding don’t knows – a clear majority of the SNP voters behind the current SNP policy.

The Yoon plant is the idea that the Section 30 order is “permission” and you’ve fallen for it, hook line and sinker, just like you and everyone else were meant to. It’s properly tragic seeing the situation framed by you in this way.

The Section 30 order isn’t permission. It’s protocol and it’s compulsory. The UK government has a legal duty to issue the Section 30 order in due course. That’s the constitutional procedure available in this country to comply with the international law which requires respect for the right to self-determination of peoples. In 2017, Spain didn’t have that in place. We do. We’ve had it since 2012. We’ve done it once and that’s called a legal and constitutional precedent.

Brexit clarity will not be achieved for years if not decades. Three years has gone into only a possible withdrawal agreement.

“On the Andrew Marr Show this morning, the First Minister explicitly and unequivocally denied having ever asked the UK government for a Section 30 order, which came as a surprise to a great many people who’d been very much given the impression – by her – that she did just that in March 2017”

Shameless, but not her fault if she identifies as someone who never requested a section 30 order.

@Neil McKenzie

The Rev isnt seeking permission. The SNP are.

Och, Stu, everybody loves trier.

‘Continue with the current position of asking the UK Government’s permission and hoping it agrees’.

Loaded? Moi?

The SNP Government has skin in the Brexit game.

If only to exert pressure at WM when the Brexit No Deal unravels.

I know of no one who wants England to suffer.

There will be a S30, when the SNP can use a confidence and supply arrangement with the next gang of English MPs trying to form a Government in November/December to demand it.
You guys are big on demanding a Plan B.
What’s your version?

A Scottish Republican Army Storming Partick P O and declaring Independence in Merkland Street?

You are being deliberately controversial and divisive; an ego trip, IMHO.

The SNP are running a country, not half badly, and getting flak from all sides.

Get a grip, and give these polls a rest, will you?

“The problem is that Sturgeon will never do this, so a change of leadership is required. Sturgeon, Murrell, Blackford all have to go. Recall the SNP from Westminster and make a UDI.”

“The shit will hit the fan but who said independence would be easy?”

Sounds easy lets do it, oh but wait, they have the British armed forces to stop UDI, we have Greyfriars Bobby and the new Forth crossing. We’re not Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe, which is thousands of miles away we’re right next door, with British army bases in Scotland.

@ Republicofscotland

What’s the alternative?

@Dadsarmy,

So what happened?

I don’t think there is any doubt that the SNP leadership are aware of how the now 50% or more are leaning on independence. MPs and MSPs speak to the members and voters. Something has to give over the next few months and we have a vote by Sept 2020 or we enter dangerous and potentially divisive waters in the run up to May 2021. In between we may have an election or a second EU referendum (I’m no longer sure what the feck is happening…possibly a united Ireland in all but name too).

“Note: Plan A CAN include the second option.”

No it can’t. Nicola Sturgeon has EXPRESSLY ruled out the second option on numerous occasions.”

Just saw that bit, yes you’re right.

Still leaves it at 57% including the DKs for formally asking for a Section 30 order one more time (at least) / the first time, whichever is believed, and also legislating for a 2nd Ref as is happening – the two are NOT mutually exclusive. If I had to choose only one, I’d go for the 42% one; the S30 is kind of implied by what Stugeon says, as, basically, a minor detail (as far as I’m concerned).

Maybe that is also covered by the “something else”.

@Bob Mack “So what happened?”

Too many handling errors, and Japan were very fast and ferocious. But 28-21 is a respectable score.

Anyways, as far as the main topic is concerned, all these things are open to different interpretations, all are possible, yours, mine, the Rev’s, Sturgeon’s, XYZ’s, and that’s very likely the point of the whole thing. Nobody knows.

“What’s the alternative?”

Well it can’t be UDI Westminster would never allow it, remember they have the armed forces would the EU or UN take our side?

Since the Rev has pointed out that there’s not enough time to hold a indyref between now and late 2020 due to initially concluding Brexit a more than likely GE and not much chance of the granting of a S30 order.

I can only suggest what others have suggested use the up and coming GE as a indyref if Westminster says now is not the time when asked over the next few weeks.

As the Rev’s poll question above shows 40 odd percent would go for holding a indyref if Westminster refuses to play ball on the S30 order.

As you rightly add though Sturgeon and some of the other SNP hierarchy won’t go for it. A wild shot might be they have a Plan B, but are playing it very close to their chests, I do hope so.

As for removing Sturgeon and Murrell, that’s very unlikely to happen.

I have a slight problem with the heaps of advice we ‘rebels’ are attracting for daring to criticise SNP (in)action. They reason we’re given is that we’re playing into the hands of the pesky Unionists who will use it as fodder for their subsequent attacks. My disquiet rests on the fact that there’s not a shred of evidence to back up these cultural myths and prove that in-house squabbles helps opponents or loses elections. In fact, engaging, even critically is said to enliven voters, give them more purpose than simply marking a cross every few years. And since it will be not only SNP we need to secure Indy but a pro Indy government of whatever party stripes, I trust that WoS and others (me included) will continue to hold any and all politicians to account, point out their follies and yell ‘foul’ when needed.
I love the wee Wings emblem on the Truth table. ?

Many of us a lobbying within the party for a plan b approach.
I have repeatedly said that plan won’t work because a section 30 is a law to dissolve Holyrood.
Alex Salmond just used it cleverly to persuade Cameron to grantva referendum.
No Tory government will ever again do this.
The 1997 SNP manifesto states the only clear way to Independence. This is a majority of Independence Party, SNP and or Greens in Westminster.

If people don’t believe what it says in the Daily Mail
why believe what interested parties say on the anonymous *influential* internet or from big Tam doon the pub because he’s got a pal who knows

The exploitation of the uninformed, some because they don’t wish to be informed and some who you could inform all day long but either choose not to remember or can’t remember, and the shit stirrers who misinform just because they like it

The internet has enabled it all, we see our children arguing over who insulted them last or most or who bullied them on the internet some to such a degree that their mental health suffers from it but instead of learning from that, grown adults do the same thing and employ the same methods against other adults, and they have no shame for doing it because even when they’re wrong they still have to win no matter the cost to others, and those cowards just sicken me

@Dr Jim

Rather cryptic.Be spdcific if your unhappy about something.

“We have to demonstrate majority support for independence in a process that is legal and legitimate and that crucially – not just domestically in the UK but internationally and in Europe in particular – will be accepted”.

Says Nicola Sturgeon.

Legal = law. What law? Whose law? The constitutional law of the UK State?

What “the law” says is this: “That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof and forever after be United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain”.

According to “the law” there is no legal method of dissolving the Union; its forever. Of course, that is total mince: nothing is “forever”.

What Nicola Sturgeon is effectively saying is this: You only have the right to decide whether you want to be independent, when UK Parliament gives you that permission. You can only become independent when given permission to be independent by the UK state. You can only become independent when given Royal Assent by the Crown (of the Imperial Majesty of the Kingdom of the United Kingdom).

As for Europe, read that as the EU. Read that for: Scotland can only become independent when it is approved by the British Empire and all the governments of Europe and the EU.

In the eyes of Nicola Sturgeon Scotland is not Catalonia. Catalonia could only become independent with the permission of the Kingdom of Spain.

In Nicola’s eyes Scotland needs approval of the British Empire and europe and whoever else she thinks needs to approve Scottish independence.

Nicola is wrong. Challenging Nicola and the SNP on this is not being a unionist or falling for a unionist trap, it’s being a sovereign people standing up for their sovereignty.

Sovereign Scotland needs permission from no others.

I would argue that that is the law of Scotland. It’s been the law since before the time of Robert The Bruce. It was the law in 1689. It’s the law now.

Nicola and the SNP should obey Scots Law, not British Empire law.

@Bob Mack
Remember the point of this website? NOT to believe what’s in the Daily Mail, Express, BBC?

So why are so many taking the MSM interpretation on what’s happening, rather than using their own noddles?

There are unionist parties and unionist supporters in Scotland but unionism is nevertheless an expired force which no longer possesses the prestige to prevail.

“Legal = law. What law? Whose law?”

Exactly. Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings …

… anyway, back to the (other) rugby (Wales). But afore I go.

Interesting poll, and it has to be said that to get an idea of what’s going on isn’t easy to format questions for. This isn’t perfect, but it has established its primary purpose – that a pro-indy party on the list would have a fair chance of being voted for if the SNP betray their mandate and we get no Indy Ref before 2021.

And that question was the only way of doing it, rather than the pathetically silly and inapporopriate choice of a list of 10 or whatever political parties demanded – elsewhere. It was about SNP or not SNP – not even about Green, for the list. And that was and is correct.

And this 50% Devil’s Advocate is out of here.

Next!

Never thought much of Douglas Adams.

Also we must remember the Ancient Greek dictum: those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad. GRA looks like the death madness of SNP and Greens. Add in the SNP wish to cancel Brexit against the democratic wishes of English voters without recognising it would be just like Westminster riding roughshod over us.

Truly our leaders have become mad, they should perhaps be put down.

You’re either missing the point or being wilfully obtuse, Stu. It’s like currency, and many other things. Of course there will be (and already is) a Plan B, and a Plan C. The point is we don;t want to allow them to be used as a distraction until Plan A has been exhausted – which, as several bright readers have pointed out, requires at least one more attempt to obtain a Section 30 order.

@Dadsarmy

I think people mAke up their own mind Personally I have not read a newspaper since 2016.

Good spin though.

It seems as you only follow your own highly biased polls.

defo says:

13 October, 2019 at 3:57 pm

Jack C
“Get a grip, and give these polls a rest, will you?”

The epitome of blind faith.

There’s a train hurtling down the track towards us, but look away and all will be fine.”

I’m listening to Tommy Sheppard and Deirdre Brock at Conference on tackling drug deaths and stopping the British MOD using Scotland as a dumping ground for weapons and nuclear waste.
Two remarkable Scots MPs in my view. They live and work tirelessly in the Real world.

On here the chatter is about a mythical plan B.

Tommy and Deirdre are not looking the other way in blind faith.
They are tackling Scotland’s challenges head on.

Give me peace, defo.

I have never relied on blind faith in my puff.

WE go now, through the ballot box.

Come on,defo, what’s Plan B?

Make Independence a single issue manifesto in the imminent UKGE and if 50% + 1 of the electorate vote SNP, then that’s it: Instant Independence?

Nonsense on a unicycle of course.

Single issue manifesto is voting ‘blind’ and will never convince the Don’t Knows and waverers.

Any GE Party Manifesto must cover all aspects of the electorate’s life; Health, Finances, Foreign Policy, Law and Order and other little pesky details which voters look for when making a decision on whom to elect.

To stand as a ‘single issue party’ would be electoral suicide.

The polling seems to indicate that the SNP may win 50 plus seats in a FPTP contest, which is not the same as 50% +1 of the electorate.

First a UK GE, then S30, then Referendum, all within the time frame of the year from now, in autumn 2020.

It may be argued that it is blind faith to believe that there is a Plan B in place when the bad SNP’s ‘gold standard’ option fails, to paraphrase Stu’s loaded scenario, and uses up precious oxygen in needless belly button gazing, at a time when all our energies should be devoted to the prize, Independence now.

What’s the difference between The Daily Mail and Wings.

The Daily Mail say the truth is that the SNP/Scotgov are baaaad.

Wings says the uncomfortable truth is that SNP/Scotgov are baaaad.

It’s strange not being at the conference and watching it on tv. But when you cancel your membership you do develop more insight.

Anyway time shall tell but my gut feeling is the Rev is right and it’s a wings party that will be needed for 2021. I still hope I’m wrong.

you shouldve stuck with the movie Cubby, its hilarious.

maybe too complicated for you though, a bit like this thread

We must have a party that FIGHTS for Scotland. Not one that goes through the motions like the pathetic Scotland rugby team in Japan.
Time for political FIRE and political BACKBONE.
Asking too much?

Nicola Sturgeon and the Mandarins of the British, “Scottish National Party” have turned the SNP from being a Scottish Party that seeks independence for Scotland into being a British Party that fields candidates for General Elections only in Scotland, and forms the Government of Scotland. It’s a party that seeks to save the United Kingdom from a No Deal Brexit, rather than seeking to get Scotland out of the UK. The obvious time to act for independence is while the English Parliament of the UK is in chaos.

Craig Murray compared Nicola and the SNP Mandarins to generals in a small army being engaged in a war with a larger army; the larger army is in chaos with infighting among factions, but the generals of the smaller army are waiting until they get their themselves in order before engaging in the battle. I would add to that that the generals of the smaller army are waiting for permission from the generals of the larger army before they engage in battle.

Nicola and the SNP Mandarins must know that independence is not a matter of Domestic Law, but a matter of International Law. She’s actually going against the legal opinion of the English government of the UK by treating it under Domestic Law.

Plan B proposes that the Scottish Government negotiate independence with the English government of the UK before independence. This would be a great mistake, giving the English government every opportunity and excuse to delay independence. No! The Scottish Government should resile the Treaty of Union and revoke the Act of Union with England first, then negotiate the terms of a just distribution of the Patrimony of the former UK.

Craig Murray wrote:

“The Independence of a country is not a matter of domestic law it is a matter of international law. The right of the Scottish Parliament to declare Independence may not be restricted by UK domestic law or by purported limitations on the powers of the Scottish Parliament. The legal position is set out very clearly here:

5.5 Consistent with this general approach, international law has not treated the legality of the act of secession under the internal law of the predecessor State as determining the effect
of that act on the international plane. In most cases of secession, of course, the predecessor States law will not have been complied with: that is true almost as a matter of definition.

5.6 Nor is compliance with the law of the predecessor State a condition for the declaration of independence to be recognised by third States, if other conditions for recognition are
fulfilled. The conditions do not include compliance with the internal legal requirements of the predecessor State. Otherwise the international legality of a secession would be predetermined by the very system of internal law called in question by the circumstances in which the secession is occurring.

5.7 For the same reason, the constitutional authority of the seceding entity to proclaim independence within the predecessor State is not determinative as a matter of international law. In most if not all cases, provincial or regional authorities will lack the constitutional authority to secede. The act of secession is not thereby excluded. Moreover, representative
institutions may legitimately act, and seek to reflect the views of their constituents, beyond the scope of already conferred power.

That is a commendably concise and accurate description of the legal position. Of major relevance, it is the legal opinion of the Government of the United Kingdom, as submitted to the International Court of Justice in the Kosovo case. The International Court of Justice endorsed this view, so it is both established law and the opinion of the British Government that the Scottish Government has the right to declare Independence without the agreement or permission of London and completely irrespective of the London Supreme Court.

I have continually explained on this site that the legality of a Declaration of Independence is in no sense determined by the law of the metropolitan state, but is purely a matter of recognition by other countries and thus acceptance into the United Nations. The UK Government set this out plainly in response to a question from a judge in the Kosovo case:

2. As the United Kingdom stated in oral argument, international law contains no prohibition against declarations of independence as such. 1 Whether a declaration of independence leads to the creation of a new State by separation or secession depends not on the fact of the declaration but on subsequent developments, notably recognition by other States. As a general matter, an act not prohibited by international law needs no authorization. This position holds with respect to States. It holds also with respect to acts of individuals or groups, for international law prohibits conduct of non-State entities only exceptionally and where expressly indicated.”
link to craigmurray.org.uk

Muscleguy – thanks for the biography. We were all interested and I think all of us are now better people for having heard it.

@ Jack collatin

Tommy Shepphard: ‘Sheppard encouraged First Minister Nicola Sturgeon to abandon plans for a second Scottish independence referendum before Brexit.’

link to en.wikipedia.org

Colin Alexender says:

Sovereign Scotland needs permission from no others.

I would argue that that is the law of Scotland.

It would be great to have that confirmed in a court of law, wouldn’t it?

Let it go to the supreme court and let them confirm that the people of Scotland are sovereign…

Perhaps some of the better informed SNP MEMBERS can enlighten me , just watched Marr’s interview of NS where membership of EU was brought up , Marr asked if Scotland’s 7% deficit would have any impact on future membership , Nicola responded that Scotland’s deficit was coming down and that we could join EFTA initially

So my question is , on this and other sites Scotland’s deficit , GERS , has continually been rubbished and denied as being the skewed figures produced by wastemonster based on incorrect data and ESTIMATES that are not proven and wastemonster will not provide the evidence for , so we have OUR FM admitting on a biased broadcast media that their assertion is correct and that we currently DO HAVE a 7% deficit , rather than point out the discrepancies which have been widely disproven
So how do activists knock on doors and tell residents that we don’t have a deficit , and that it is just a construct of wastemonster’s deliberate obfuscation to show that Scotland IS TOO POOR to be independent , when OUR FM is not challenging their lies . IMO Nicola did not come off well in that interview . But there again I am only a SNP voter not a member and according to others my opinion doesn’t count

A conspiracy theorist (and let’s face it, there is no reason not to be one on either side of this divide as there is ZERO credible evidence from the SNP central ‘shoosh, you’ bubble that they even want a referendum) could easily conclude that Sturgeon’s entire raison d’etre is to prevent one. BIG conspiracy theory: How would MI5 have prepared to act, in the event of a close-call Referendum? They’d install a Nicola.

Eat me, don’t fucking @ me, I’m simply making a point.

I’ve given up giving a shit (all will be glad to hear). If the people of and/or in Scotland don’t want to take control by now, and are happy to take the broken promises and the fake (admit it, – they are) assurances and are happy to pay their subs just to be excluded and discounted, then they simply don’t deserve, or are simply not ready for, Independence.

Plan A: Get Sturgeon the fuck out of the way, and elect a leader who can fight this war (and yes, it IS a war) like a true fucking bastard.

Hi John Jones.

“Billboards”…

link to gogetfunding.com

Galamcennalath@4.55pm

I agree but that doesn’t mean I can’t get pissed off with all the negativity. Plus the motivation may be what we both think that doesn’t mean I think it is helpful – in fact it may well be counter productive. Also as an atheist I do not take kindly to the suggestion that’s if you hold a position it is based on blind belief when it comes from a post where the evidence provided is a bunch of Britnat papers.

I write as someone who worked with insurance policy wordings for forty years so I have some experience in understanding the nuances of small print. On many occasions I had to explain even to directors of large broking companies that what they thought a policy wording said wasn’t actually the case. Reading the words of the examples given above, I see nothing that says ‘here is the wording of a formal Section 30 request sent by Nicola Sturgeon to Theresa May’. I see a lot of sloppy journalism and misleading headlines along with a declaration by the First Minister that she wanted to initiate discussions *about* a Section 30 request. I have to conclude in the face of the evidence that there hasn’t been a Section 30 request so one *hasn’t* been refused.

My own guess is that if and when a formal request is made we can forget about all the posturing of the Westminster parties. They don’t have a legitimate, legal reason for a refusal and if they did refuse there would be grounds for the Scottish Government to appeal to the courts.

It hasn‘t escaped my notice that Scottish Ministers have been spending a lot of time talking to EU officials and European politicians and I imagine that the deal is that Scotland will go down the ‘legal’ route at first and only seek other solutions when that avenue has been exhausted. In return I suspect that guarantees about membership will have been given.

I’ll now climb into my bunker and prepare for incoming.

Farcical conditions at Hampden Park, reminds me of Aberdeen v Real Madrid at Gothenburg , not sure if the ref is going to kerp the game going. If he abandons it would be typical as scotland are giving the mighty San Marino a drubbing.

@ Andrew Morton

“…..I suspect that guarantees about membership will have been given.”

I suspect that guarantees about a nice, cushy EU job have been given once Sturgeons tenure is over.

Mist001@6.31pm

In a previous post you claimed that Cherry and Blackford are ("Tractor" - Ed)s. Is there anyone in the SNP acceptable to you.

@ Cubby

There probably is but likely keeping very low profiles in fear of reprisals.

Mist001@6.38pm

Ha ha you do have a sense of humour.

“Any GE Party Manifesto must cover all aspects of the electorate’s life; Health, Finances, Foreign Policy, Law and Order and other little pesky details which voters look for when making a decision on whom to elect”.

Not for the SNP.

The SNP will NEVER be the UK Govt. Thus, there is no need to produce a manifesto for Westminster except one that says:

Bring our MPs home to end the Union.

Scotland ruled from Scotland by Scotland.

Andrew Morton @ 6.15

I will come and join you.

Napoleon Bonaparte said never interfere with or enemy when he’s making a mistake.

Although your theories are persuasive Rev they sound to me like short-term tactics which can lead to short term gains, followed by long term defeat
Let the B******s stew and an Independence vote will become unavoidable, and if they continue to deny us that then that will be the time for UDI, following any of the scenarios of a Holyrood or Westminster majority.

At the moment 35 MPs hold the balance of power at Westminster. Use it, go to Johnson and offer him votes on condition that he negotiates for Scotland and NI to stay in CU and SM as per Wings couple of years back. England leaves, everyone happy and a huge step forward to independence because of the legislative powers that would follow. DUP then become irrelevant.

I usually agree with most things you say, and I’m far from an SNP loyalist – their stance on the GRA and the nasty entry-ists who’ve come along with that has put me right off them as a party. It’s only independence and the sane voices of people like Joanna Cherry keeping me in for now (and the certainly said entryists are wreckers with no interest in indy; quite the opposite). But I’m not sure I agree with your analysis this time.

You might be right, of course, and I have huge fears of a far right GE win and hard Brexit, followed by a swift removal of devolution and putting Scotland under a Union Jacked jackboot. But when it comes down to it, I don’t think that will happen. I see an increasing shift UK wide and internationally towards acceptance that Scottish independence is both inevitable and understandable. At the moment, like it or not, all the action on Brexit is at Westminster and that’s where all eyes are. So the SNP have to play on that stage. They’d be crazy not to. And the role they’re playing are the only grown ups in the room, trying to stop Brexit, trying to do the right thing for Scotland, the UK and the EU, playing within all the rules. That’s as it has to be. Anything else right now would just add more footstomping and uncertainty where it’s most definitely not needed or wanted.

It may be frustrating – and the fact several of my own EU friends/neighbours/colleagues and their families have already left in the meantime makes me furious and upset as well – but I don’t see any good way for this to play out for unionists either. None of the UK parties want a GE; none of them want a hard Brexit; none of them want the kind of deal that can be done; none of them want to revoke Brexit (the LDs claim to want to but will end up in coalition with the Tories). Any Brexit will create havoc; no Brexit will create havoc.

Scotland and the SNP know what they want – No Brexit and independence in the EU (or possibly EFTA). Sure, the UK government (whoever that is) can keep saying no to an S30, however great the chaos and however large the poll lead for indy, but all that will do is keep the poll lead growing, the march sizes increasing, the Brexit anger boiling. And meanwhile, Scotland will have plenty of friends internationally and in England who see the injustice. Even Labour in Wales is swinging behind a Welsh indy vote – there are almost certainly high profile media and political types in Scotland (and UK) who’d finally swing behind indy in a scenario where Scotland was dragged out the EU, there was a clear majority for indy and our choice was being denied.

At that point, you’ll have a large win for yes. Frustrating, yes. Is it better to demand and fight for the right to hold a referendum too soon and have 52/48 one way or the other and less allies internationally and in the UK? Not so sure. I’m not ready to give up on the SNP just yet. Bear in mind, they’ve inherited a truly shit situation with Brexit – Nicola’s the perfect person for gradualism and building up a country over a 10-20 year period prior to the next referendum. Brexit threw everyone off track. I don’t doubt her desire for independence at all. If it does come down to a real dog fight though…

So Rev Stuart Campbell you say that I should read the posts here to understand what it is you and others think the SNP should be doing that they are not doing.

I do

I do not agree that SNP are going about things the wrong way, when you put your trust in a political party you will not know all that they plan to do , I don’t think you will know all that they plan to do, you are not a professional politician , SNP have many of them.
I trust them.

Until brexit actually happens SNP will not have a Scottish independence referendum
Everyone here is aware of that , aren’t they ?

The Salmond case is looming and Nicola is up to her neck in it. Salmond is a naughty boy, but he is no criminal.

I fully expect Nicola to resign in Match.

Thanks for the responses to my comment.

As ever, very smart people on here.

twathater says: at 5:43 pm

“Perhaps some of the better informed SNP MEMBERS can enlighten me , just watched Marr’s interview of NS where membership of EU was brought up , Marr asked if Scotland’s 7% deficit would have any impact on future membership , Nicola responded that Scotland’s deficit was coming down and that we could join EFTA initially

So my question is…”

Hud oan a minute. Forgive me for interrupting you, but my question is why would we need to join EFTA as I thought Ian Blackford stated Scotland wouldn’t be pulled out the EU against its will.
Just searched for the info graphic which captures that and first result returned today’s IB conference speech.

link to snp.org

Hmm. this excerpt doesn’t quite state the same thing.

“The SNP – your SNP MPs – will stand firm in speaking up for Scotland, in respecting Scotland’s vote to remain and in never backing any attempt to take us out of the European Union against our will.”

I’m fair scunnered with all this carefully produced legal eagle / weasel wording which can be interpreted in different ways to allow slippery eel like politicians to get away with stating what they actually mean.
Heads up politicians, these days folk listen to what you say, especially when it relates to such significant events that effect our futures. Any chance youse could be just a little more focused with what you say so the electorate can make informed plans and decisions.
We’re not all well off so don’t have the financial security to ride out storms. TIA.

Another EG. We all recall the mandate wording with “Such as Scotland being taken out the EU against its will”.
I read that as Robert Louis upthread. ie. in the process of, not after the fact, or it would have said “having been taken out against its will”.

@Daisy Walker. re. Led by Donkeys mobile projector.
The big crowd funded groups like SIC don’t appear to be doing this so with assistance from another Winger there is a projector of sorts.
Need to buy a pricey powerful sine wave inverter and install heavy duty cabling to car battery because current draw is substantial. 250 watts continuous at 240v AC means this can’t be simply plugged in to vehicle cigarette lighter socket.
Car and bike tax and insurance all due so finances this month are a tad squeezed. However the good news is the darker winter nights will be ideal for projecting.

The independence movement has 1.6 million voters. Probably more now.

The SNP has 670,000 voters,of whom 125000 are members.

We are bigger than them.They only lead for now , but we can follow anybody we wish. so who needs who.

Och, one more crowdfunder that needs a bit of input.

Mark Piggott (WOS “Tartanpigsy”) brought the pile of YES flags into Scotland for indyref1.

He wants to do the same for indyref2. Can we help him achieve this? Here’s a couple of quotes from the link below:

“Back in 2014 we brought in the first ever mass produced Yes Flags.
It wasn’t easy, At the time it was the biggest single import we’d done and it was hit by snags , and delays, and initial doubts from donors.
But eventually, with help along the way, we succeeded and provided #Indyref1 with a great shot in the arm at a crucial period.
This time around we’re making another 6000 of the original Yes Saltires, 3000 EU Saltires, 1500 Yes Saltire Car Flags, and 1500 sets of Yes Saltire car wing mirror covers**.”
and
“Time is very short. Brexit happening on October 31st will mean potential chaos at UK ports so all goods are timed to arrive and clear customs before that date*.
With this in mind we have already sent a deposit to instigate production out of our own pockets. We anticipate running the fundraiser until around mid September but as yet no closing date has been set.
Please do what you can to help Yes be ready for the final leg of Scotlands long walk to freedom.
Donate, Share, Tweet, tell those not on Social Media about this campaign, and remember, these flags work!

The Perks – Donate £10 and you’ll receive a flag in the post
Donate £100 and you’ll receive 10 flags in the post”

link to gofundme.com

If a political party which is formed around a particular idea stays around long enough then the party tends to become more important to the members than the original reason it was formed. The Labour party is a good example of that and sadly the SNP seems to have gone the same way.

The Rev has produced useful information about what SNP voters think and because the SNP fanbois don’t like what SNP voters are saying, they are throwing the toys out of the pram.

If the Rev had done this sort of analysis on say Labour voters then the fanbois would no doubt have been saying great job Stu – you have gone back to what you are good at.

NS could have nipped all the speculation in the bud by saying that, if a section 30 was refused, then there were contingency plans in place. She doesn’t need to say what they are, only that a referendum will be called before 2021 regardless. Instead we are in the position where she is saying that a Section 30 is the only route and no Plan B or C are allowed.

This is what Nicola said at the SNP Spring Conference, 2017:

“I could take the easy option.

I could let Scotland drift through the next two years, hoping for the best, but knowing that the worst is far more likely…

Waiting for the chance to say I told you so….knowing that by then it might be too late to avoid the damage of a hard Brexit.

Or I could make a plan now to put the Scottish people in charge of our own future.

I choose to put the people in charge.”

Anybody think she kept her word?

Mist001 8.35 PM. That’s my thinking as well, if after a hard Brexit Johnson decides to shut down Holyrood like they done stormont. What then? And spare me the sovereignty sh**e.

Andrew Morton @ 6.15

Refreshing to read a post from someone who uses facts and logic to understand the actual situation.

Dog whistle press reporting is creating a lot of false impressions of where we actually are.

Things will move quickly in the next few weeks of that we can be sure.

MorvenM @8.40pm

Sad to say, but it’s a bit like when the weather forecasters cheerfully tell you tomorrow will be fine when yesterday’s forecast turned out to be wrong.
If you were talking shite then, why should I believe you now.
I was unaware of the quote you posted. I’ll take your word that is what NS said but it’s pretty damning.
Can I at least try and be positive and say I believe NS is genuinely committed to indy, she’s just being very badly advised and distracted by opportunists in the party.

Seems a lot of people are highly pissed off with the SNP. Can anyone tell me who to vote for, in Scotland, if I don’t want to vote for a unionist party, which will further entrench us into the union. Which other party has independence and EU membership in its manifesto. ( the Greens might but not really a serious alternative)

Like it or not, at the moment Scotland is trapped in the union. If the union leaves the EU, then Scotland is dragged along with it. (Saving a clever plan which we are not yet party to). So, in accordance with the Scottish 62% remain vote, the only way to keep Scotland in the EU is to keep the UK in the EU. Hence the stance of our representatives at Holyrood and Westminster. Now we know that this is an unlikely goal, but it does reflect the reality.

In the next stage, following the UK’s withdrawal, crash out or whatever, if Scotland is refused an S30. (not permission, but an agreement to honour the result) then it’s time for a referendum anyway.
Why do we want an S30. Having one will smooth the passage of the subsequent negotiation with England and allow the international community to unreservedly support Scotland’s position. When that S30 is refused it will be time to move on to plans B and C which undoubtedly exist, it is beyond belief that the possibilities have not been discussed and options established.

It’s important though to get everything in the right order. Were I to be the escaped slave, charged with culpable homicide of my master, I would like to say that firstly I asked nicely to be released. When that failed I asked again and he punched me, I punched him back. Then I asked and he took a knife and tried to stab me, I grabbed a kitchen knife and slashed his arm. Then he produced a gun, I distracted him and hit him very hard with a baseball bat. This finished him off, but left me defending my actions.

When we stand before the court of international opinion we will have to demonstrate the correctness of our actions and will gain their sympathy, assistance and recognition.

Reminder that the next ‘Frriends of WOS’ shindig is in Dows, Glasgow (at Queen St station) on Fri Oct 25th.

Some of us will be there mid-afternoonish (say, from 3) to prepare the upstairs room. If enough of us turn up early then they’ll probs open the bar for us. Elsewise we congregate downstairs.

Please bring some food, even if it’s just a packet of Frazzles. They know we’re bringing our own stuff and that we’ll clean up afterwards.

😉

Essexexile at 9.16 pm:

Here’s the link to the whole speech, in case anybody thinks I misquoted Nicola.

link to snp.org

Unless MI5 were recruiting teenagers to infiltrate the SNP back in the 1980s (which I doubt!), Nicola has been a life-long believer in indy. I just think, like you, she is being very badly advised, for reasons I can’t claim to understand.

What on earth happened to the Wings site and its followers? It’s turned into an embarrassment.

@Lollysmum says: 13 October, 2019 at 2:07 pm:

” … I’m with John Thomson above Vote SNP1 Wings2 You know it makes sense ?”

Well no it does not, Lollysmum. You see no one yet knows who will stand as Wings candidates and no one knows what their policies will be. You cannot just vote for someone on the vague promise they support independence – some people did that in previous elections and voted for the Greens but today I read that the Greens will no longer be supporting the SNP.

Furthermore there is a very good reason that plans B are called plans B – it is because they are not so good as plan A. Now don’t get me wrong, (but I suspect there will be a queue of Wingers ready to do just that),.

I’m not saying a Wings Party is a bad idea, mind you I’m not saying it is a good idea either – I’m just saying I want to know a lot more about the nuts and bolts of the idea before I decide if it is an idea worth supporting. Sadly, to date, I am less than encouraged by the comments of some Wingers on the forum.

But carry on arguing among yourselves while I lurk and make the occasional comment. Can you imagine the impact certain Whingers” Oops! Wingers would make as Wings Party MSPs with their maiden speech at Holyrood? They would be more of an opposition to the SNP than Labour, Tory and the LibDem acting together.

The old saying holds good – look before you leap.

With those few thoughts I’ll awa back tae lurking and listening.

Jings:
A whole call in going on on radio 5:
Break up of the UK.
Big rammy between 2 Independents (who are not clued up) & a loyal Unionist (who is less clued up than the other two)

Tune in and get more depressed. FGS!

Once in a life time referendum. Were skint! NHS / Schools rubbish

Countered with we beat Edward 1st etc
FGS!

I trust your interpretation – I don’t trust the SNP. That said, I’ll vote for them first up, then assess my options in the list.

When the milk turns sour it’s best not to drink it.

I have voiced various disagreements with Nicola Sturgeon on several different points here, at different times.

Yet a large part of me still has a pretty strong feeling that, no matter how much I disagree with her about this or that, she is still going to get it sufficiently right to win the one thing we all want: Scotland’s independence.

I see no reason at all to despair.

To the contrary … We are winning. It’s taking time but we ARE winning …. It may be all too gradual for impatient people like me but, whether I like it or not, her calculations are more likely to be well informed than mine.

Which doesn’t make them (her calculations) infallible. But I can’t think of anything that would give a sure-fire guarantee that my calculations are better than hers … To the contrary, hers are far more likely to be correct than mine.

I am very interested in political principles, in how to maintain and safeguard them … and in achieving the goal of independence.

But the current focus here seems to be on CALCULATIONS considering how best or quickest to get there, which move to make and when …. That’s an area where my guess may be as good as yours, but also where some people really are much better informed than others. It’s also an area where those with the responsibility – and that’s not me – have to make the calls.

As I said, despite my criticisms of her (which remain), I do accept that Nicola is more likely to get the calculations right than I am. And I still have that sneaky feeling that she IS getting it right, and will indeed achieve the result, when the right moment strikes.

I wonder if there are others who feel the same as me even if, like me, they are not members of her fan club.

Actually, faith is not always blind. There is another type of faith, the faith of trust, which comes through objective study and analysis of theories, actions and results. Just saying.

@Normski,

Better tell that to the SNP website and Holyrood magazine.

@ Dan at 8.03

Re: projector

Have you tried the Scottish Independence Foundation (link to sif.scot)for financial support? It sounds just the sort of thing they like.

Paragraph 18 of the Smith Commission 27th November 2014 states “It is agreed nothing in this document prevents Scotland from becoming an Independent country in the future should the people of Scotland so choose”

The British government cannot refuse a section 30 order from the Scottish government it’s a transfer of power from UK government to Scottish government not a gift or permission, under the terms of Union to refuse to do so they would become a dictatorship from that point

This is not just some whim of Nicola Sturgeon to do things this way, this is a demonstration of legality to the UN and the EU so that Scotland faces no entry difficulties later with these organisations

She’s not had meetings with all these people for coffee and biscuits that’s why the British government withdrew her consular assistance that we pay for, they knew then and they know now

“I will put it beyond all legal challenge” she said

Can anyone spot the difference:

“According to the commons library Nicola Sturgeon requested a Section 30 order in 2017. She was adamant that she hadn’t on Marr today. Either the commons library is incorrect or that’s a reasonably important whopper of a lie.”

to this:

“Nicola Sturgeon’s 2017 request

More than two years later, on 13 March 2017, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon confirmed she would ask the Scottish Parliament for authorisation to request another section 30 order. MSPs approved this by 69 votes to 59. In response, then Prime Minister Theresa May told MPs: “now is not the time to be talking about a second independence referendum.””

link to commonslibrary.parliament.uk

“she would ask the Scottish Parliament for authorisation to request another section 30 order”

and does anyone remember weetabix:

“David Torrance is a Senior Library Clerk at the House of Commons Library, specialising in devolution and the constitution.”

Check, double-check and then check again. And give links and references for any assertion made, so people can check if it’s valid – or not as in this case.

Another crowdfunder that deserves support:-

Phantom Power – they who produced a 25 episode series of “From No to Yes”.