Down with this sort of thing
Posted on
July 23, 2013 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
We’re still mentally paralysed from this morning’s horrific TV, sorry. So here’s a wee screenshot that we took while setting up yesterday’s ludicrously successful fundraiser.
Vote Yes to stop this happening in the future, folks.
Stuck in the house today, waiting for tradesmen. First, new fridge delivery boys. Will you be voting Yes next year? Yes, of course we will, they say. Next, gasman flushing the central heating system. Will you be voting Yes next year? Of course, he says.
Does this count as a poll, and do you therefore owe me some money Rev? (I knew I’d find a way of turning round this donation nonsense).
Demeaning, innit?
“Demeaning, innit?”
Found one of those big cans of Stella at the back of the old fridge we were getting rid of. Felt considerably less demeaned after that, and a bacon roll. Airdrie breakfast.
Vronsky, that you got two sets of tradesmen to turn up on the day is pretty impressive. They clearly know better than to antagonise you. I wonder though, if “of course” would have been their answer if you’d phrased it “Will you be voting No…..?”.
@jake
You’re right – next time I shall invite a control group of different tradesmen and ask them that different question – watch this space. With any luck one of them will know how to switch the fridge doors to the other hand – we’ll see which constitutional camp he falls into – could be interesting!
Out of interest, did you check what happens if you type Eng or Wal too?
The thing is, there must be enough people trying it to make it worth their while to program this in.
No worries – it refers to the union of the crowns. Or something.
Apologies for going OT but the latest release from the Scottish Government Maximising the Return from Oil and Gas in an Independent Scotland (July 2013) can be viewed at:
link to scotland.gov.uk
Hail Alba Vote YES in 2014
That kind of thing has annoyed the hell out of me for years as well. More stupid and baffling, however, was Edinburgh Council’s website which only had the option of selecting ‘Great Britain’.
Careful now!
The most annoying example of that sort of thing that I can remember encountering was something that happened many years ago, checking in to a MacDonald chain hotel in Chesire. Their computer wouldn’t accept “Scotland” as a country in my address, which was very annoying, but the receptionist then said that it wouldn’t take “United Kingdom” either and it had to go in as “England”. She was eastern European of some description, generally pleasant and helpful, and presumably had no interest in putting me in my Jock place, so I had no reason to doubt her. I’d be astonished if I’d been the first resident of Scotland to stay in any of their hotels, though, especially since they’re a Scottish based chain with many hotels in Scotland.
The best way to get an honest answer from folk is to simply ask which way they’ll be voting next year – if you ask “will you be voting Yes?”, it’s clear what you’re hoping the answer will be. Likewise, if you say “will you be voting No?”, they’re likely to assume you’re a blackhearted unionist.
O/T, The Telegraph has got online union jack bunting up for baby, aw bless;
HA,HA,HA,HA,HA. (abbreviated HA,HA’s to avoid castigation).
Well Vronsky my Airdrie breakfast was porridge as usual. I waited in for a delivery of a wee saddlebag for my newest folding bike.
It came from Carradice in Nelson, Lancashire. The only option was UK Mainland.
I feel a petition coming on…
In fact, I’ve been thinking of doing this for some time. We need to demand that Scotland is given due recognition.
@Atypical_Scot:
Telegraph’s bad. But have you seen the Sun? Or rather “The Son” ? Its absolutely awful.
To paraphrase Burns “Wad mak ye spew wi perfect scunner”
Here we go.
link to change.org
Petition signed Peter
Petition signed. Let’s hope it attracts strong support.
This is a bit crazy. I’m doing the graphics after creating the petition and Facebook page.
link to facebook.com
Just signed it Peter.
Trivial, but signed! Let’s hope we get our way, not just in t’internet but in real life too.
Wow! More than 20 signatures already! I’ve not even finished setting it up.
Hi Vronsky, stuck in Kazakhstan, now salivating for a huge can of Stella and a bacon roll.
(The bacon here does not appear to have the pink bits that we know as ‘meat’, the butter is to Lurpak as Johann Lamont is to competent, and the rolls, well, thank Christ I’m heading back next week, contract over.
Just as well the tradesmen didn’t find the Stella, eh? 😉
signed up
Signed from me as well.
Hi Tony, I know I said I’d given up on the Herald, but I was so incensed by ‘Red Pedro’ Russell’s (or pale fucking pink Pedro, as I once dubbed him on CiF) comment on the Oil thread that I made another attempt at commenting, possibly too late for moderation today, but I will be interested to see if it makes it through tomorrow.
If it does it will signal a softening in the moderator’s approach, don’t really expect to see it again. I was a bit tetchy, to be honest. 😉
Ah, just had a quick look over there, Tony, and I see you’re back in business, well done.
When I first moved to Denmark and hadn’t got my social security card yet I had to give my ‘home’ address and details as a visiting patient at the doctor. They only had England as a country. When I was applying to join a part-time post-grad course, the web app gave a list of countries and qualifications to be converted into Danish qualifications (points system). I had to write to the education ministry to ask what I did with my Scottish Highers since only England and GCSE’s were listed. When I went to register for my social security card, they only recognised England. I wrote a lot of angry letters around that time and the Danes just thought I was weird.
Signed!
I have an online shop, and much as I would like to include Scotland/England/Wales/N. Ireland as individual countries, I don’t. I need a two letter code (iso 3166 alpha 2) for the payment provider, and and the only one I can use for these countries is ‘GB’. I did consider adding five options with the same code, but that would just piss people off even more when it’s translated back from the code to ‘United Kingdom’ by the payment provider. Pic above just goes that one step further.
Sorry Peter, it’s not such a simple matter.
It’s a perfectly simple matter to add Scotland to a drop-down list for e.g site registration purposes. Many sites already do. You are talking about something quite different. And something which we cannot hope to change until after independence.
On the other side of things,
My rental car firm in Australia (a local one in Sydney, can’t mind the name) had Scotland as a country option yet didn’t have Iceland!
Caledonalistic, I had a similar problem from about twenty years ago. Except this was the simple problem of trying to change traveller cheques in the Netherlands, which I had purchased from Bank of Scotland. I tried about five banks, all of whom told me they only changed English pounds, and not Scottish pounds (yes, they assumed they were different currencies). Finally I was advised to go the headquarters of their largest bank in Amsterdam, where I had to meet the manager of the bank who wrote me a letter which I could use to change the cheques at that branch only. Yeah, we really are better together. What a place on the world this union gives Scotland. :-/
When I was at Guinness in London colleagues in NPD released Guinness Draught in a Bottle with bar codes on the Six Pack – no-one thought to ask about Scotland: where the bottles had to be bar-coded individually because packs could be broken up. A few slaps and a fortune later, problem solved.
Also we got time to watch England games in Euro/World Cup (in the restaurant with big screens) although I never got any time off to go watch a Scotland game and others never got to watch Ireland games (OK we didn’t qualify for that tourney, but other times)
Don’t think I did my career prospects any good when Brazil scored past Seaman from the half-way line and I cheered like a madman. Worth it though!
Hi Peter A Bell
Yes Scotland’s Nationbuilder system has Scotland as an option. However, this was done as a favour by the US company who built it, and it doesn’t mean anything – you have to put in United Kingdom!
But all will change next year. . . .
I’ve been building websites for 15 years. I know how easy it is to create or amend a drop-down list. It takes literally a matter of seconds. Nation Builder might be slightly more complicated because it’s a content management system. But for most websites it is a very simple matter.
Kudos Peter, No 102 just signed! Always annoys me and I WILL complain to the webmaster from now on.
Have to say I’ve been a bit taken aback by the response. The whole thing was done on the spur of the moment.
Gladly signed Peter – it has certainly bothered me for long enough.
Good work Peter. Would support every avenue to stop Scotland being air brushed out of existence.
Signed with pleasure.
Alba Gu snooker loopy!
The word for the UK in Japanese is ????- Igirisu- “ee-gee-rees”. That pissed me off no end when I had to refer to myself as such, especially when my dictionary translates it as “Great Britain”.
That was the first time I had lived outside of Scotland so I assumed it was just Japan’s lack of local knowledge (after all how clued up is the average Brit about politics in the far east?”). I didn’t worry about it too much as I knew I was Scottish and British so surely that was generally the case??
However, now I am living in England I have come to realise that it is the default for the vast majority of the world to use “England”, “UK” and “Britain” pretty much interchangeably.
Nothing against the English, just I am not one myself and don’t particularly like the assumption that my country is just a region of England- akin to Yorkshire or something.
Peter,
Many thanks for allowing me to voice my regular frustration!
However, sixteen years ago I was returning to Scotland from Hong Kong and was forced to overnight in Amsterdam (!)
I had to congratulate the hotel for including a Saltire and Exchange Rate for Scottish Pounds on their board displayed in Reception. The staff couldn’t see why I was so pleased!
Many years ago I had a site on the now defunct Geocities and one of the first things I did was to set up a webform to find out where my visitors (both of them) were from. Needless to say very easy to change the details to include Scotland.
Signed petition, liked the facebook page! now to start sharing…
Meanwhile, ‘respected, elder statesman’ Darling continues the lies and bluster he has become so noted for, though going a bit too far this time, I don’t think even Reporting Scotland can ignore this.
link to newsnetscotland.com
“They wouldn’t buy from me because I don’t have Scotland as an option. Apparently I need to change the HTML or something. But I spoke to my neighbour and he said it’s probably a database table. And his son asked if I use PHP or Java because it might be them. How the hell should I know? I spoke to [insert any of many third-party CMS vendors here] and they told me it’s just not possible. I’m fed up with this independence lark.”
Anyway, nice idea. Sure to convince many (especially the small) Scottish businesses to vote No. Bitter Together would love it.
*not signed, obviously*
“Anyway, nice idea. Sure to convince many (especially the small) Scottish businesses to vote No. Bitter Together would love it.”
I’m not sure it’d be THAT big a deal, but – sorry, Peter – I’m broadly with Tim on this one. The fact is, we’re currently NOT a country, so why should people treat us as if we are? Do drop-down menus feature Catalonia, or Quebec, or whatever the bits of Belgium are called? No. If we choose to subsume our nationhood into the UK, it’s perfectly reasonable for people to call us that.
Unsurprisingly, I totally reject the assertion that Scotland is not a country. Even the British state has acknowledged that Scotland is a country. So I’m not sure why you seek to deny it.
Otherwise, your argument appears to be that the status quo should never be challenged. Needless to say, I disagree with that also.
There is no practical reason why most country selection drop-down lists should not include Scotland. A number already do. So what’s wrong with a wee campaign to increase that number?
Anyone googled “North west UK” recently?
Okay, fair enough, just hyperbole. It wouldn’t convince them to vote No, but it could push them further that way than to vote Yes. And from there, it’s easy for anyone in the Bitter Together campaign to put out: (NOT MY OPINION) “The Yes campaign are urging consumers to boycott small businesses who do not include Scotland as country on their websites. This could cost them thousands, during a time when they are already struggling due to poor choices made by both the Tory and SNP parties. Frankly, it’s time Salmond stopped trying to push his vision of an isolated Scotland onto those who are happy to remain a part of the United Kingdom family.”
THAT’S NOT MY OPINION, but it’s just the sort of argument you hand the BT campaign with petitions like this.
The anti-independence campaign will always find a way of dishonestly distorting anything that we do or say. Yours is an argument for paralysis. Exactly what they want.
Unsurprisingly, I totally reject the assertion that Scotland is not a country. Even the British state has acknowledged that Scotland is a country. So I’m not sure why you seek to deny it.
Otherwise, your argument appears to be that the status quo should never be challenged. Needless to say, I disagree with that also. There is no practical reason why most country selection drop-down lists should not include Scotland. A number already do. So what’s wrong with a wee campaign to increase that number?
I totally agree Pete. If Scotland is not a country I will go out the door and eat grass with the sheep.
Signed with pride 🙂
And if the sheep vote “no” next year, rejecting the assertion that we are in any meaniful sense a country, it seems to me quite inevitable that we will all be sharing their diet.
It’s not an argument for paralysis, it’s an argument for not cutting our collective nose off.
Read what I said. The anti-independence campaign will distort ANYTHING we say or do. If you argue that we should not do anything they might distort then you are inevitably arguing for doing nothing.
And you better believe that the unionists will find a way of spinning your preferred inaction too.
Well, I do believe they are prepared to distort just about anything, I don’ believe they’d distort my “preferred inaction” (but I’d be very happy if they were stupid enough to do that), and I’d be interested to read how many people (of those intending to vote No, or who don’t yet know) you think you’d convince to vote Yes by petitioning to boycott and complain to any website which does not include Scotland as an option.
I’m sorry Peter, I think you’ll convince nobody, and only prepare ammunition for the anti-independence lot. BUT, it’s clear neither of us will convince the other, so I’ll just let you have the last word (if you want it), and leave it there.
Oh, and one more thing. Given you know as much about the workings of my website as most micro businesses know about their own: on my website what changes would be required to include Scotland as an option, how long would it take, and at what cost?
Your argument for timid inaction doesn’t get any more persuasive with repetition. You even seem to be suggesting that consumers shouldn’t make choices on the basis of the way a firm presents itself online. Which just makes no sense at all.
I’m not familiar with your website. But assuming a standard HTML drop-down option list, which is what I have been referring to, the change requires no more than the addition of a single line of code. It would take, quite literally, seconds. Perhaps a minute or two if there was some inline CSS to be inserted.
If I was doing it for a client I wouldn’t have the hard neck to bill them for something so trivial. But I never claimed to be a good business person.
“timid action” — lol, now you’re just trying to be insulting, which now demands the answer I had promised not to give. I reject your “timid”, and give you “reckless” and “pointless”. 😀
No, I am suggesting that urging boycotts of websites who don’t present themselves in the way you demand plays straight into the hands of the anti-independence campaign.
“repetition” along with “no sense at all” — or, more accurately, “You keep coming up with arguments I can’t answer, so I’ll lump them together as repetition and nonsense and ignore them all.” Straight out of Duncan Hothersall’s book of arguments.
You didn’t answer the first question. I suggest it’s because the answer is close to, if not exactly, zero.
The second answer highlights my point — micro/small business owners don’t know what they need to do to their own website (if they even can). On my system (and many others), it needs a new row in the database, and changes to the PHP (possible other database changes such as a constituent countries table, depending on how hacky the change is) to recognise which country/countries need to be placed at the top of the select. (I’m ignoring the link to the payment provider, even though your petition fails to distinguish which sites should be boycotted.)
You really are getting yourself all worked up about nothing very much. Are you this frantic all the time?
Far from coming up with the unanswerable argument that you imagine, you’ve barely put together an argument at all. It pretty much amounts to, “The anti-independence mob will put a negative spin on anything we do, so don’t do anything.” How do you type with your hands in the air?
I don’t know what you mean by “the first question”. And you fail to specify so… moving on.
You don’t know how to amend your website. So you assume everybody else is just as incapable. And you evidently have no idea of how to go about finding a solution. If all business people in Scotland were like that we’d have a serious problem post-independence when there will be a real need to put Scotland on the country list. Presumably, you’ll still be expecting people to make do with “UK”.
There is no mention of “boycott” on the petition. So you lied about that. All it does is suggest that people use their right as consumers to decline an offer that does not meet their needs. It is, frankly, profoundly silly to talk about a “boycott” as there will inevitably be sites which people need to use regardless of whether their preferred country option is available. Unlike you, I trust people to use their own discretion and a little bit of common sense.
The intended purpose of the petition was merely to give people an opportunity to express their frustration at the failure of operators to ensure that the country list takes the fullest possible account of potential customers’ requirements. That is, after all, no more than they should be doing. And if the petition puts some pressure on website owners to up their game, or even if it brings the issue to the attention of a few of those who are unaware of it, then I will consider it a success.
You seem to have convinced yourself that the petition is some intrinsic part of the independence campaign rather than a relatively minor side-issue. You really need to get a sense of perspective.
I’m also not sure there isn’t a valid argument that says “The more we’re allowed to identify as Scottish, the less we’ll feel we need to be independent in order to assert it.”
@Rev. Stuart Campbell I’m also not sure there isn’t a valid argument that says “The more we’re allowed to identify as Scottish, the less we’ll feel we need to be independent in order to assert it.”
I’d tend to agree with that. And without getting into the ’90-minute patriots’ argument, I do wonder what effect it would have on people’s intentions if a No vote would mean the end of separate Scottish sports teams?
“I do wonder what effect it would have on people’s intentions if a No vote would mean the end of separate Scottish sports teams?”
Have you been sneaking a look at my draft poll questions? 😀
Have you been sneaking a look at my draft poll questions?
Rumbled! 😀
I’m about to go out, but here’s a thing. I looked up just one individual on that petition (not out of malice, just curiosity, and I shan’t give the identity as that wouldn’t be fair), and on the very first page of Google they are listed on a well-known social networking site (which requires them to register as UK), and a business site. On the latter, they are registered under United Kingdom, and for further details I need to register under, you guessed it, United Kingdom.
I don’t have a major problem with being identified as British or being from the UK when dealing with foreigners. It’s not fair to expect they all have an intimate knowledge of our history or the current political situation. I do have a problem with being identified as English and it’s nothing to do with any anti-English sentiment. I’ve no doubt most English people would feel the same if they were forced to identify themselves as Scottish. Having my nationality stripped from me seems like one step towards having my name taken away and being given a number. It’s part of who I am.
I remember joining a hash club (not what some of you are thinking) when I was living and working in Africa a few years back. I had to go through an ‘initiation’ that basically consisted of being asked questions in rapid succession while being subjected to various distractive assaults. Each time you answered a question wrong you had to drink a pint of lager from a child’s potty (ahh, memories). The bastards made me drink 4 pints before they let me off with saying Scottish instead of British when asked what nationality I was. Good times!
First question was: “… how many people (of those intending to vote No, or who don’t yet know) you think you’d convince to vote Yes by petitioning to boycott and complain to any website which does not include Scotland as an option.”
Yes, because I’m not frantic now. I just think you have a silly petition, which begs for negative publicity, which is unworkable, and is signed by at least one hypocrite, and almost certainly others.
The word “boycott” isn’t used, it just urges people not to sign up to websites who refuse to include Scotland as an option. Which amounts to the same thing. So clearly I’m not telling lies as you accuse me of doing. (verb: Withdraw from commercial or social relations with (a country, organization, or person) as a punishment or protest.)
If someone contacts me to include Scotland as an option on my website, I’ll use language I’m not comfortable using on Stu’s website.
I haven’t convinced myself of anything, but we were either having a discussion or we weren’t. I thought we were.
Anyway, just back from a nice half-day out. Can’t be arsed with you any more now that you really have just lowered it to insults. I tried to be nice and refrained from ridiculing you, because disagreement doesn’t need that — it is only disagreement. But you should just accuse me of things, and ignore every single point raised against your pointless petition. That’s all you’ve done so far, and good luck with that.
Incidentally, I know how to amend my website, and judging from what you’ve written I suspect I know far more about software that you will ever know.
“… how many people (of those intending to vote No, or who don’t yet know) you think you’d convince to vote Yes by petitioning to boycott and complain to any website which does not include Scotland as an option.”
None. That was never the purpose. As everybody but you seems to have realised immediately.
I trust you feel better for your little tantrum.
“I trust you feel better for your little tantrum.”
Alright, I think that’s enough, guys.
Ironic to see ad hominem attacks being floated by people so worried about their fellow yes supporters words being manipulated.
Scotland, legally speaking, is not a country. The ramblings of politicians or anyone else for that matter do not make it more or less a country, the only thing that effects the status is the law.
Thats why we are having a referendum. To change the law.
What I do on these menus that do not allow me to say I am Scottish is to fill in the county field as “Lanarkshire, SCOTLAND.” That then keeps me happy. However after independence day we will have the right to demand that our proper nationality is recognised, and that the WWW allows us to be distinguished as .sco. Not extinguished as is the fantasy held by the little UKOKs. Not long now. Keep calm and vote YES.