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Wings Over Scotland


Dear Alistair

Posted on August 09, 2014 by

I watched your STV debate with Alex Salmond on Tuesday night with interest. As the debate progressed I began to realise that your task would be so much easier if you simply put forward reasons why the United Kingdom, in its present form, is a positive force that serves the Scottish people and satisfies their aspirations.

alistairdarling1

I’ve no doubt that you’d also prefer to put forward a positive case instead of having to constantly attack the idea of independence and use negativity, uncertainty and personal attacks to achieve your aims. So why are you doing this?

I was also intrigued by the amount of time you spent on the issue of a currency union. Surely the debate is much broader and deeper than this one issue? Then it struck me. You spent all that time on currency because the current set-up, where all parties use the pound is, in fact, the only thing that could be construed as a positive case for the union.

Of course, many would argue that a currency union by itself is of no benefit to Scotland without the full range of fiscal powers that are needed to transform the country. And others would also argue that a formal currency union is unnecessary for Scotland to thrive going forward. But for the moment and for the sake of argument I’ll concede that our present currency union serves all parties well.

However, I’ve been researching the independence question for almost two years now and from what I’ve learned, I suspect that your hands are tied and that you have no other option but to pursue a negative line of attack because otherwise I believe there is not one single solitary reason why the United Kingdom is functioning as a power for good for Scotland.

So my challenge to you is simple. Give the people of Scotland one truthfully positive reason why they should vote no in September and remain within the union. Tell the Scottish electorate what single aspect of the union serves them well. Use the political skill and knowledge that you have acquired over decades to articulate a positive case for the union.

No slogans, no spin, no negativity. Just come up with one single, solitary example that demonstrates why we should support the continuation of the United Kingdom rather than take control of our own affairs.

Why not start with the constitution? The one that encapsulates that proud family of nations that you and your colleagues are so fond of talking about. Surely that’s fertile ground for finding a positive case?

Perhaps not. Why would you point out that the UK is one of only a handful of countries in the world that doesn’t have a codified, fully written constitution; a document that sets out in black and white the rights and responsibilities of the government and citizens and sets these firmly within a legal framework?

Why would anyone from Better Together No Thanks draw people’s attention to the fact that this situation places power totally and absolutely with the UK parliament who can then use this power, unimpeded and without redress, to do as it pleases, regardless of the wishes of the people?

darlingsea

OK, fair enough. What about democracy then? Surely Scotland derives some benefit from Westminster, the Mother of Parliaments? Unfortunately I don’t think it would do your case much good to remind the Scottish people that their vote in UK elections is largely pointless, that they can toddle off to the ballot box every five years and exercise their democratic rights but they’ll still get governments they didn’t vote for most of the time.

Of course you know that this is a sore point with many Scots, which is probably why you refused to acknowledge this democratic deficit and instead childishly jab your finger at Alex Salmond and angrily tell us you didn’t vote for him. You know that it’s nothing to do with how an individual votes. It’s about the majority. But lacking any kind of positive response you’re reduced to treating the audience, the viewers and the electorate as daft numpties that don’t know how elections work.

I almost feel sorry for you, having to constantly deflect public attention away from important but sensitive issues in order to achieve your goal. Take the House of Lords, for example, another taboo topic that must be avoided at all costs.

After all, if the electorate were reminded that this unelected gravy train – the second biggest parliamentary chamber in the world after the Chinese National People’s Congress – has the power to rip devolved powers from Scotland, as they recently demonstrated, and its members are paid £300 a day (tax free) to do it, it wouldn’t do very much to promote a positive case for the union in the minds of people in Scotland.

What about the economic arguments? The UK is one of the biggest economies in the world, apparently. There must be something positive for Scotland here. Not so, it seems. The facts prove beyond doubt that Scotland has been a net contributor to the UK’s finances for decades.

Instead, when asked during the televised debate if you agreed with your Better Together partner David Cameron that Scotland could be a successful independent country you almost blew a gasket to avoid answering the question. The last thing you want is for people in Scotland to realise just how wealthy we are and how this wealth is systematically syphoned off to the Treasury.

You might be a (former) lawyer but it’s obvious you’re not going to suddenly tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth when it comes to Scotland’s wealth and the role it’s had in propping up Westminster governments for over a hundred years.

But during the debate you went even further than hiding the truth – you told us that “in the last 22 years Scotland has spent more than it got in”. The figures say otherwise, and the numbers demonstrate the crushing economic burden that Scotland has been forced to carry over decades due to the UK’s inability to balance its books.

So what about UK society and your party’s much-trumpeted quest for social justice? Any positive messages here? I’d like to think that this question causes many sleepless nights you and for the politicians in the No camp. Not because it’s something high on your list of priorities – given you’ve all had almost a century to do something about it in Scotland and other regions of the UK and failed – but because you know full well it’s a question where no amount of spin, diversion or slogans can be used to paint a positive picture of the current workings of the British state. So you simply avoid addressing at all costs.

We can cite the tens of thousands of working families relying on food-banks, sick and disabled people committing suicide because of benefit cuts, rising numbers of children in poverty, Britain on its way to being the most unequal country in the Western world according to Oxfam, pensioners being paid the lowest pensions in Europe while the income gap rockets between working people and a super-wealthy elite who use their power and influence to maintain the status quo?

sexydarling

Can’t these be borne on the broad shoulders you’re so keen to remind us of, the ability of the larger UK state to pay pensions and benefits, to facilitate trade, to absorb global shocks and to keep us safe? No, because away from Scotland you and your Tory and Lib Dem colleagues are fighting to be tougher than each other on welfare.

As a former Chancellor you know that pensions and benefits are more than affordable in present day Scotland, and will be even more affordable in 2016 if we seize access to all the wealth we currently generate but don’t get access to.

You know that we currently spend less on social support in Scotland than the rest of the UK does and you know that average life expectancy in Scotland is less than the UK average after generations of Labour and Conservative rule. You know that Scotland, along with every other Western democracy, is facing an ageing population crisis yet you’re fighting with every fibre of your being to deny us the opportunity to do anything about these challenges.

You and your – well, let’s call them “acquaintances” – like Gordon Brown, realise that none of this can be given a positive slant under the current set-up so you choose instead to frighten pensioners and other vulnerable people into voting no.

Trade? Are you seriously trying to tell us that businessmen and companies will suddenly give up trying to sell their goods and make money just because Scotland decides to run its own affairs?

The map of the world has changed immeasurably since I was a kid at school. Super-states have collapsed, others have been created and many countries have opted for independence. As far as I can see trade has not suffered one iota as a result of this – if anything, global trade has blossomed. Or maybe you’re trying to subtly tell us we’ll be some kind of international pariah like North Korea? Perhaps it’s just another one of your famous jokes.

As the Chancellor in charge of the UK economy during the global financial crisis I’m certain you have your own insight into the effects of global shocks. You never seem to tire of telling people that this would have annihilated an independent Scotland but for the positive intervention of the UK and the Bank of England.

It’s strange indeed that an experienced politician and former Chancellor doesn’t realise that the location of a bank’s brass plaque has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on who is responsible for any bail-out. It’s the places where the bank does business that determines that, hence the obligation on London, New York and a variety of other international contributors to RBS, HBoS and the like. I can only presume you’re relying that a majority of Scotland’s voters are blissfully unaware of how these things work.

As for your comments during the televised debate, either you’re not in full possession of the facts, or I’m afraid you’re so desperate to scare people that you’ve been reduced to lying in public. Iceland and Ireland are not bust as you claimed. Unlike common practice in the UK, Iceland jailed the bankers and bailed out the people. Ireland made similar tough choices and both countries have now recovered from the crisis.

Far from being bust, both these countries now have a greater wealth per head of population than the UK. But hey, why let facts get in the way of a good scare story?

darlingbrown

And safety? The safety that drags our young men and women into illegal wars that the people of Scotland don’t support? The safe pair of hands that’s prepared to spend hundreds of billions of pounds on weapons of mass destruction despised by a majority of Scots? Or maybe it’s the comforting arm of a Ministry of Defence that over-charges Scots hundreds of millions of pounds every year for defence against phantoms?

But “pooling and sharing resources”? Surely that’s a positive message, right? After all, nobody wants to be seen as selfish and most of us are open to the idea of helping our friends and neighbours.

But what you’re not telling us is that this “pooling and sharing” of resources results in hard-working people in Scotland paying for the likes of Crossrail in London, the high speed rail line that will never reach Scotland, the London sewer upgrade (suggesting that London is dangerously overflowing with – well, let’s not go there), the London Olympics, the Iraq war, weapons of mass destruction, useless aircraft carriers and the House of Lords (a useless hot-air-craft carrier).

The ethos appears to be one where if these areas in other parts of the UK are to have financial support then it certainly can’t be at London’s expense. After all, London has an international reputation to uphold and that takes money; £1.3 trillion’s worth over the coming years, according to a recent report. That’ll amount to around a £4bn additional contribution from Scotland every year to pump up the capital even further.

So thank goodness you and your Tory friends can rely on the generosity of the Scots and their willingness to give away their wealth in return for some pocket money.

Alistair, I’ve racked my brains looking for a positive message that you and your partners could use to your advantage. Something, anything, of substance that presents a truly positive case for the current constitutional, democratic, economic and social set-up within the union. I can’t find any, I’m afraid.

darlingsad

When you strip away all the negativity, the spin, the slogans, the diversions, the untruths and the half-truths from your message, all that’s left is sentimentality, an evocation of times gone by. Trouble is, Scotland has moved on and we’re now ready to build the future. So will you take up the challenge? Ditch the negativity, forget Alex Salmond and the SNP. Tell the people of Scotland the true, unadorned truth and give us one single, positive case for the union.

Yours in anticipation,

Robert

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    239 to “Dear Alistair”

    1. Croompenstein says:

      Robert look look blink blink better to be part of something bigger..look look pool and share blink blink share risk and reward…best of both worlds etc etc

      The worst thing for me Robert is that this man must have seen ‘the books’ and must know how much Scotland is being fleeced.

    2. G H Graham says:

      One of those mug shots looks very much like Peter Sutcliffe.

      How unfortunate!

    3. Lesley-Anne says:

      Hi Alistair,

      Like Stu I’m curious as to where your positive case for the union is. Can you please tell me why having 1 million people in Scotland, almost 20% of the population, in poverty is GOOD for Scotland?

      What about the 1,000 Food banks. Why is having 1,000 food banks in Scotland GOOD for Scotland?

      Why is the Bedroom tax GOOD for the people of Scotland Alistair?

      Now I know we all have our own ideas about nukes on the Clyde but can you please tell me why having ONE submarine at sea with EIGHT missiles each with FIVE warheads is good for Scotland? Remember now Alistair Russia, let’s not forget Russia is where your 40 nuke warheads are aimed, has over 1200 nuke warheads aimed at Scotland and the rest of the UK. Oh and don’t forget Alistair Russia’s nukes are NOT all submarine based they are submarine, aircraft, silo and mobile launcher based. Not only that Alistair Russia also has an anti nuke missile system so exactly how many of YOUR 40 warheads will get through and hit their targets as against Russia’s 1200 warheads hitting UK?

      Why are ILLEGAL wars GOOD for Scotland Alistair? I’m talking about the ILLEGAL war your mate Tony Blair took the country into in Iraq and the next ILLEGAL war your best mate David Cameron is about to take the UK into in, oh look, Iraq!

      Alistair perhaps you can explain to me why the O2 Arena, London Olympics, Cross Rail, London Underground Upgrades, London sewer upgrades, London Super Sewer, New Thames Crossing (Bike friendly), HS2, HS3, HS(North East) are costing the Scottish government money. How on earth can ANY of these projects be explained away as being beneficial to the people of Scotland and so they are out with the Barnett Formula calculation? Please Alisdair, I’m dying to know how on earth I, someone living in SCOTLAND, benefits from ANY of these ego rubbing projects?

    4. wullie says:

      They may well call westminster The Mother of all Parliaments. I see no father.

    5. Lamond Laing says:

      Very well written and so true hope many more read this

    6. Murray McCallum says:

      A great letter Robert.

      Better together campaign team:
      [sign here]

      ……………………………….
      I hereby accept that there is not one single, solitary example that demonstrates why we should support the continuation of the United Kingdom rather than take control of our own affairs.

      It’s vitally important that Better Together believers sign this before joining project fear.

    7. CameronB Brodie says:

      Apparently empty vessels are the loudest.

    8. If there was a positive case don’t you think they would have said it by now?

    9. Thanx Robert Moffat.

      When Kipper Flipper cannot get the facts straight, do we really suppose he gets the concept of “IRONY”.?

      A tour de force in this article.

    10. benarmine says:

      Very well put Robert but oor Alistair will never have to worry about these things as not one msm “journalist” will ever ask the questions.

    11. Dorothy Devine says:

      OT but I have just visited the Spectator site where I read a scathing article by one Graeme Archer. He had apparently been on some radio programme with Pat Kane who , judging by the bile and spite Mr Archer has put in print, must have given him his bahoochie in a basket.
      The usual unionist suspects are adding their tuppenceworth of ordure to the whole proceedings.
      I would really like everyone to boycott these sites by adding no comment , no contradiction – they fairly froth at the mouth if no “nasty cybernats” turn up! Quite fun!

    12. steph says:

      @Murray McCallum

      *round of applause*

      I don’t often interject but that is class

    13. The Journeyman says:

      Excellent piece Robert comprehensively covers it and as we all know AD has nothing to offer. Like the rUK he is bankrupt in so many ways. Scotland is awakening to the truths and information like yours is being accessed by more and more people, who in the process, become far more immune to project fear.

    14. Finnz says:

      There is something rotten about a politician whose preferences and policies are based on his own , and his party’s, political welbeing.

      For that is the only cause that Darling is fighting for..

    15. Hood says:

      Flooplepoop says:

      Is there a way to get that spreadsheet downloaded or printed?

    16. Moreida Lord says:

      Poor Alistair is going to need tons of aloe vera after this…. BURN!!!

    17. Frann Leach says:

      Flooplepoop you beauty, I’ve been looking for this info.

      And a brilliant open letter from Robert Moffat. I hope AD reads it. But I doubt he will, sadly.

    18. James Sneddon says:

      Good article Robert. You’re really expecting an answer are you? 🙂 Darling is doing what he’s doing for the prize of whatever has been promised to him. However under his and Blair MacDougall’s direction the ‘Better Together No Thanks’ campaign would have crashed and burned a long time ago but for the support of the BBC and the other MSM.
      Where are the open public meetings?, where are the activists? (those bussed in by Labour don’t count as they are as ineffective as Jim Murphy’s magic bus tour). A whole campaign based on the a hollow shell of a premise.
      Anyhoo thanks for writing a good article.

    19. Findlay Farquaharson says:

      History will show him as a man who lied to his country to continue his lifestyle. His family are the ones i feel for. What a legacy he is leaving them.

    20. Colin Church says:

      Superb post. After spending huge sums to find out what topic and language BT UKOK nothanks need to deploy to scare shaky yes and soft no vote, they will plough this narrow furrow with a complicit MSM. Wages will be paid, businesses will trade, mortgages will be paid, messages will be bought in £s after yes and after the transition. Roll on the next tv debate but more importantly roll on the day to day and one to one conversations. Oh yes and watch the money market response to Ed’s CU remarks if it is a yes on the run up to the rUK general election. That desperate position to make the front pages will be regretted. Forget “keep calm and…” wake up to this BS. Shame on all the “CU NoTS” who use this as the big scare.

    21. James Sneddon says:

      Dorothy Devine- I heard Graeme being handed his jotters by Pat this morning on the Today programme. Pat in his own style told firstly the presenter off for a question that was ‘silly’ and Mr Archer for totally not getting it. Made my morning. Articulate non politicians really throw them out of their comfort zone and shows up the joint complicity between media and politicos to maintain the metrocentric view of what’s going on.

    22. paul says:

      Graham you are so right mate

      “One of those mug shots looks very much like Peter Sutcliffe.

      How unfortunate!”

      poor Peter looking like that twat lol

    23. Lesley-Anne says:

      Well if Alisdair is not ready yet to accept the fact that a CU is in the best interests I do know of at least one of his counterparts who is, Ruth Davidson being interviewed by Isobel Fraser back in June this year. (Think it must have been during the Tory *ahem* Spring Conference in the local phone box 😛 )

      http://tinyurl.com/mzceuax

    24. balgayboy says:

      Well written article Robert and many searching questions. Unfortunately all these will fall on stony ground with this guy.

      Naw, the only way now with 6 weeks remaining is to ignore these bottom feeders and for all who really want a YES vote to get out there and convince as many as we can where to put their X. It’s there for the taking.

    25. David S Briggs says:

      @Findlay Farquaharson

      His wife is worse than he is.

    26. Rock says:

      Well he can’t say it in public because the ‘positive case’ for the union applies only to a small minority in Scotland, troughers and flippers like himself.

      For the vast majority of the people of Scotland, there has never been a ‘positive case’ for the union.

    27. Croompenstein says:

      @Hood –

      Is there a way to get that spreadsheet downloaded or printed?

      Click on file then download as and it gives you some save options

    28. msean says:

      Well said,great article.
      There is no positive case.

    29. The best way I use to the NO camp to get an answer is to imagine Scotland was independent now and rUK wanted us to join them. Ask them what would the benefits be. It is usually the same old thing about defence shared money and all the other dross we,ve heard before.
      So,I ask, there would be no wmd,s,or taking our oil revenue and who makes all these decisions? The Scottish people or some den of iniquity in London which is 600 miles away and all the other disadvantages that we all know.
      They struggle to answer and I must admit some do see the case for independence.

    30. paul says:

      Alastair Darling, the man who had to keep saying he was a proud Scot just incase we forgot it yet how can we forget it when it wasnt real to start with. Born in London, works in London and even talks like a london MP. whats not to know lol

      We’re talking about a man who actually bragged that he was the idiot that bailed out the greedy bankers and his tone of voice would suggest he expected us to be gratefull for that lol. Had the bail out money been used to reinburse all the people who had lost out and a little more used to pay for the fuel required to drive the lot of them to jail then we would be nowhere near the debt we are in now.

      yep, best advice to you ally bally eyebrows is if you want scotland to even slightly support you at least have the brains to know we hate the crooks that messed up the economey and ended up richer for it. ya eejit ye

      The only reason you got put up there was so the no camp could claim one single truth………. “we have a guy with even bigger eyebrows than you” lol

      Now runalong back to your friends who seem to think you did well and just pray that Scotland is as Naive as you assume and that we have all forgotten how deep your hands were caught in the taxpayer till during the expenses scandal……..Im just glad we’re all in it together booaak

    31. jamieboy says:

      Lesley Anne
      I expected this and there is no doubt AS has the form but instead we got a question about driving on the wrong side of the road. Get the fire back in the belly and hit them hard. Being all nicey and soft will not work -even the so called liberal BBC and Guardian are now amongst the most venomous. And that unelectable student geek miiliabnd now swaggering about acting like a gangster for god’s sake .

    32. bookie from hell says:

      even Andrew Neil accepts Scotland can be a successful independent country but he feels best in the union

    33. art1001 says:

      I imagine Darling himself, reading this, would actually laugh inwardly and agree with every word. But being good for Scotland was never the purpose of the Union. They do not have our welfare at heart. Quite the reverse – they hate us and will exact a price for our impudence.

      For Darling and his London buddies Scotland is expendable. Prepare to be ethnically cleansed if we vote no.

    34. Hood says:

      Croompenstein

      Thanks, wouldn’t work in Opera (File greyed out) but opened in IE and managed.

    35. Taranaich says:

      Well, the Benefits of the Union weren’t much in evidence in Inverclyde a few days ago, but the possibilities of an independent Scotland were when Nicola Sturgeon came to officially open the Yes Inverclyde shop!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EadT44NU4AE

      You might spot a certain bearded cybernat there, as well as his brilliant wee niece!

    36. AnneDon says:

      @bookiefromhell

      Folk like Andrew Neil and Fraser Nelson “prefer” the union only because they are Neo-Liberals, and know that Scots are social democrats.

    37. Dorothy Devine says:

      Good to know James – thank you.

      I apologise for not acknowledging an excellent article prior to going off topic – sorry Robert.

    38. a2 says:

      @Flooplepoop

      Row 8 contradicts itself , do we contribute £16b or £3.2b?

    39. Fred says:

      This Dear Alistair letter would be a worthy reply to today’s article about him in the Independent.

    40. Dunkie says:

      Letter in today’s Herald –

      I HAVE no wish to argue for or against independence, but as an economist I would like to separate the economic realities of the currency issue from the political bluster that obscures them.

      The Chancellor has ruled out a formal currency union, though some say this is just negotiating bluff. Either way, there is nothing to stop Scots continuing to use the pound if they choose. A Westminster government with no jurisdiction over an independent Scotland has no power to stop them.

      Several independent countries, including Panama, use the US dollar, without seeking the permission of America’s central bank, the Federal Reserve. In the absence of a formal currency union agreement, Panama has no say in the Federal Reserve’s monetary policy, which is conducted solely for the benefit of America. Some argue, by analogy, that if an independent Scotland continued using the pound without a formal currency union, Scotland would have no say in Bank of England policy, which could be potentially damaging for Scotland’s economy.

      Nevertheless, as a result of using the dollar, Panama – a country comparable in population to Scotland – has one of the world’s most stable banking sectors. And the economic interdependence between Scotland and the other countries of the present United Kingdom is so deep that the Bank of England would, in reality, have to take Scotland’s welfare into account when setting monetary policy. Not to do so would risk damaging the other UK countries just as much as Scotland.

      Another suggestion, from Jim Sillars, is that Scotland should print its own currency and tie it to the pound. There is no substantive difference between this idea and using the pound. As the two are pegged, the only difference is the design on the currency. And why (apart from national pride) go to the expense of printing Scottish notes, exactly equivalent to the pound – but which people south of the Border might be reluctant to accept?

      The other option, switching to some other currency such as the euro, would be even more costly and difficult, and would raise huge, business-damaging uncertainties. It would also leave Scotland subject to the monetary policy of a country or agency with a very distant interest, if any, in Scotland’s welfare.

      The easiest solution, therefore, would be for Scotland to continue using the pound, with or without a currency union, safe in the knowledge that, as an important part of the sterling economy, the Bank of England would have to take Scotland’s interests into full account when setting policy. The currency problem just isn’t a problem.

      Eamonn Butler,

      Director, Adam Smith Institute,

      23 Great Smith Street,

      London.
      http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/letters/post-yes-an-informal-currency-union-should-be-plan-a-not-b.24996407

    41. tartanfever says:

      Thanks for this Robert,

      I’ll be sharing this letter with others, it’s a great summary of the entire Better Together campaign, not just Darling.

    42. fred blogger says:

      excellent article.
      then there is the 900000 benefit sanctions
      thecourier.co.uk/news/scotland/benefits-sanctioned-898-000-times-1.449257
      also the £1.6bn pa torn out of the scottish economy, because of welfare “reforms”
      http://mikesivier.wordpress.com/2014/06/23/cumulative-effect-of-welfare-reform-revealed-deprived-areas-hit-much-harder-than-the-rich/

    43. BuckieBraes says:

      I say, here’s a wheeze. Why don’t we, as independence supporters, try to help out the ‘Better Together/UKOK/NX THANKS’ side by coming up with a positive case for the union ourselves?

      Looking at an issue from your opponent’s point of view is supposed to be intellectually strengthening, after all. I’m sure we can do better by the venerable UK than they have, so far.

    44. G H Graham says:

      The Union is definitely good for Alistair Darling.

      He was paid a total of £172,550 in fees for speaking engagements between November 2012 & October 2013.

      Source: https://archive.today/77icb

      While he was speaking, he also collected his MP’s salary of £66,396. And over the last six months or so he has collected more than £94,000 for making yet more speeches. Of course he continues to collect his £66,396 per year salary.

      While his book royalties are chump change, he nevertheless collected almost £3,000 this year from a contract with Atlantic Books.

      Source: https://archive.today/9R7F7

      So in the last two years, Alistair Darling has raked in more than £400,000. When he says we are Better Together, he really means it. But if Scotland votes YES, he will suffer a significant loss of lucrative personal income.

      You’ll now understand why Alistair Darling frequently loses his temper on the telly. He has very strong personal motives for doing so.

    45. The Rough Bounds says:

      I have just had a look at the Wikipedia site for the Scottish National Party. According to the description the SNP is a facist party.

      The fact that they have made a mistake in the spelling (should be fascist) tells me that this is a No campaign infiltration.

      Can somebody do something about this?

    46. Croompenstein says:

      @Taranaich – Super vid, the beard looks even better in real life and the ponytail even better.

      Fate has dealt us a good hand to have folk like Alex and Nicola fighting for us

    47. Flooplepoop says:

      @ a2
      Row 8 is defence spending, over a 5 year period we pay in £6.5 billion more than we get back.

    48. The Rough Bounds says:

      Like I said just a short moment ago, the Wikipedia website describes the SNP as a ‘facist’ party. This is obviously an infiltration by the No campaign.

      Does anybody know how we can get this lie removed?

    49. Croompenstein says:

      @The Rough Bounds – Wikipedia is an open encyclopedia where you can create an account and edit entries. Obviously some no mark naysayer has edited the snp entry. This can be fixed by reporting it or getting someone to re-edit it. you could also contact the SNP through their website to inform them

    50. G H Graham says:

      Rough Bounds,

      You are correct, someone altered the SNP description in Wikipedia and declared it a Fascist party.

      Leaving aside that they didn’t actually spell fascist properly, I logged in and edited it by removing the entire paragraph but not before taking a picture of the offending paragraph for evidence.

      Unfortunately, there’s no way I know of, to prevent further attacks from possibly the BritNat extremist who made the entry in the first place.

    51. Croompenstein says:

      @GH Graham – weel done

    52. AD is only too well aware of what he is doing to his fellow Scots 🙁 . On a happier note YES stickers are multiplying on cars at a fast rate now and total strangers on the road are giving each other the ‘thumbs up ‘ 😀

    53. Devereux says:

      I got egg on my face last month because the financial details which I was using from Wiki had been mysteriously altered to be more no friendly vis a vis the Scottish deficit and the removal of Scotland’s net contribution etc. Sent a family to it with bated breath only for them to say gleefully – you are wrong. One probably lost for the cause although still working on it. Could some Winger monitor these pages on a daily basis and counter this in some way?

    54. Devereux says:

      *family member sheesh

    55. heedtracker says:

      Even if the UK was a well run fiscaly healthy country and not just agiant playground for super rich tax dodgers, I’d still want Scotland to be run by the people of Scotland, Scotland is our birth right and it was stolen from us by same upper classes now trying to shut it all down. We’ll see.

    56. The Rough Bounds says:

      @G H Graham.

      Well done buddy. I see however that they still have the word ‘facist’ on the web intro section.

      You are obviously more computer savvy than me. Can you correct that section as well?

    57. fred blogger says:

      dunkie
      i come across this.
      http://linkis.com/www.adamsmith.org/ne/zDxxo

    58. Patrician says:

      Apologies for O/T

      Some pictures from today’s Seafest in Arbroath.
      http://imgur.com/a/XHHVR#0

    59. G H Graham says:

      Devereux, Wikipedia is simply too large for any one individual to monitor unless you can point to a specific page which you know to be wrong.

      You can easily set up a use ID in about 1 minute and edit the pages yourself, but of course, must be able to verify the sources if you use any.

      Unfortunately, it’s all but impossible but for a small select group to trace the IP address of those who make deliberately false entries.

      All you or we can do is identify the false entries, correct them & report the abuse. But don’t hold your breath, you may have to cover old ground many times just to keep the pages honest.

      I can only assume there are many BritNat extremists working individually or at the request of official channels to subvert the truth in order to affect the voting intentions of the electorate.

    60. 9.30 Tuesday BBC2 Andrew Neil explores what an independent Scotland would mean for rUk.

    61. Croompenstein says:

      OT – has anyone noticed a marked rise in Scottish correspondents on the mainstream news lately..I mean FFS here we have Ian Watson in Downing Street!

    62. M4rkyboy says:

      OT but what is it with the Daily Mail website that i can post any crude,emotional,shallow and factually bereft comment i can think of on the comments of a Scotland related story but all my legal,technocratic and fact-based stuff gets moderated?
      Kinda infuriating.

    63. G H Graham says:

      Rough Bounds,

      I think I’ve fixed the Wikipedia SNP pages so please have another look on your browser after refreshing and let me know if you can still see any mention of “facist” or “fascist”.

      Cheers,

    64. M4rkyboy says:

      @Devereux
      I think your comment is related to my comment.
      The control of information is a major field of battle in the referendum.
      I have noticed changes on wiki as well that have been made to reflect the new constitutional orthodoxy created from the Scotland analysis papers and changes to pages regarding Orkney/Shetland to give credence to the notion that they want to leave Scotland for England.
      For me, one of the biggest changes in the landscape of the debate was the move from ‘the break-up of Britain’ to ‘Scotland leaving the UK’.
      This has had a knock-on effect and the UK has had to effectively re-constitute itself and re-write al ot of it’s history to reflect this.

    65. SquareHaggis says:

      @ Rough Bounds, well spotted. Also noticed if I search for SNP Wikipedia in Yahoo it shows up in the description text below the link. May be the same across all search engines.

      Wiki would be the only ones with access to verify.

    66. fred blogger says:

      “Press Release: An independent Scotland should keep the pound without rUK’s permission.”
      http://linkis.com/www.adamsmith.org/ne/zDxxo
      “Everyone says Mr Salmond needs a Plan B if the rUK does not agree to a currency union with Scotland. But unilateral adoption should be Plan A, making Scotland’s economy more stable and secure. The UK’s obstinacy would be Scotland’s opportunity.”

    67. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @dunkie (9.41) –

      Interesting letter, and thanks for copying it in here.

      But this bit jumps out _

      ‘As the two are pegged, the only difference is the design on the currency. And why (apart from national pride) go to the expense of printing Scottish notes, exactly equivalent to the pound – but which people south of the Border might be reluctant to accept?’

      Has Eamonn Butler ever tried paying for a pint or a cab in London using notes from Scottish banks?

    68. Croompenstein says:

      Doh..normalizing Scots and Scottish accents in the teamGB media horse.. silly me

    69. Free at 63! says:

      Was at the official opening of the Yes Clydebank shop this morning and when we were outside with big Yes banners beforehand getting pictures taken a fire engine came down the road with siren blaring and one of the firemen in the back gave us a cheery wave. A few minutes later a bus turned into the street and the bus driver had a beaming smile on his face when he saw the Yes posters and gave us the thumbs up.

      We are winning this with the ‘man/woman in the street’.

    70. M4rkyboy says:

      One of the best expressions of this was when i read about ‘Scotlands border with the UK’.
      I did laugh at that one.

    71. Devereux says:

      @ G H Graham thanks for that. I would not have the confidence or knowledge to do it. It was the main page on Scotland, which used to show us as sending more south than we got back. Now it quotes this year (out of context) as showing that we receive more than we send. Added is the little snipe about what things would be like without oil. There is a grudging acknowledgement of a (unclarifed) budget surplus in the last 30 years at the end.
      “More recent data, from 2012–13, show that Scotland generated 9.1% (£53.1bn; this included a geographical share of North Sea oil revenue – without it, the figures were 8.2% and £47.6bn) of the UK’s tax revenues and received 9.3% (£65.2bn) of spending.[184] Scotland’s public spending deficit in 2012–13 was £12bn, a £3.5bn increase on the previous year; over the same period, the UK’s deficit decreased by £2.6bn.[185] Over the past thirty years, Scotland contributed a relative budget surplus[clarification needed] of almost £20billion to the UK economy.[186]”

      Hey ho – as ever, the only conclusion is they must be damned worried!

    72. balgayboy says:

      WTF is this obsession with a lot of people on here about AD? Before last Tuesday evening he looked upon as a weak BT front & bit player in the referendum debate.

      FFS people get real and realise the politics of this referendum. Just get out there and do what we are best at, that is persuading undecided & soft no people to vote for what we all agree needs to be done.

    73. Devereux says:

      @M4rkyboy I think you are right. See my comment to GH Graham above.

    74. Les Wilson says:

      Wiki is run by an Englishman, enough said.

    75. Croompenstein says:

      Please, please we have to get our independence and our own broadcasters so we don’t have to listen to how England are getting on at the f*cking cricket.. 🙁

    76. Papadox says:

      Thanks Robert you put my feeling into a beautifully written letter, which I could never do.

      I think Alister doth complain to much. Why did he end up as head of BT instead of all the other SLAB stalwarts who prefer to be out of the limelight. You couldn’t say it was his charisma that got him the hot seat.

      The angry vociferous aggression shown by this man makes me suspicious about his motives, I wonder if Alister is trying to distract our attention from something much more serious, or is it purely greed. After all he isn’t a natural leader.

      I thought lawyers were supposed to be of some standing and not bring the profession into disrepute. So that will be alright then.

    77. SquareHaggis says:

      G H Graham,

      Sorted after the referesh.

    78. CameronB Brodie says:

      G H Graham and Rough Bounds
      Fair’s fair. I edited SLabour’s wiki page last year, removing all references to Scotland and replacing them with North Britain. I must have been frustrated over something, at the time. 🙂

    79. Sinky says:

      Wiki was doctored by Labour spin doctors prior to the last UK general election that’s why you will not find any damaging entries about Darling and Brown etc.

      The Yes grass roots campaign are pure amateurs compared to the UK establishment media manipulators supported by the Labour luvvies in he BBC

    80. Lesley-Anne says:

      Cracking pictures there Patrician. I just LOVE the hood sticker on Tartan Tory’s wee car. 😉 😛

    81. Harry McAye says:

      Markyboy- why give that shower the web hits. Just ignore them, they’ll effing hate it if no Yes supporter responds.

    82. Devereux says:

      @CameronB Brodie I think I love you!

    83. CameronB Brodie says:

      Devereux
      Much appreciated. 😉

    84. Croompenstein says:

      Where is Marcia, dying to see how the Sunday Herald are going to frame the week past and the unionist feeding frenzy on plan B

    85. G H Graham says:

      Wikipedia entries inevitably have a “superior” editor overlooking “sub editors” like me with little experience or history of data entry.

      Immediately I got a message from “Eeekster” who claims to have put back the changes I made.

      I think some folks get a semi permanent erection with the level of control/authority they have to moderate entries/deletions on Wikipedia.

      It’s not my home turf so making this up as I go along.

    86. NODROG says:

      Possibly O/T? Apologies if I am late to the party but I attended a Yes gathering in Blairgowrie Wellmeadow on Wednesday with Pete Wishart and Citizen Smart. For those who have not done so you should listen to Citizen Smart’s CD. Reminded me of the days when I lived in Hamilton and supported Winnie and Scottish folk music. We will win.

    87. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      If was make the referendum about
      Who do scots trust with scotland’s future?
      then we win and win big.

      Simple as that.

      No other subject matters because that IS every subject.

    88. mary vasey says:

      I know I’m late commenting but have to say thanks for an excellent post.
      Also taranaich was it your niece who presented bag to Nicola? Bonny Quine. Nicola, like alec seems totally at ease with peeps and listens unlike most politicians who can’t wait to leave.
      Thanks

    89. G H Graham says:

      I’m going to have a guess at where some of the grease money gets spent by BT/NoThanks/VoteNobOrders … probably on some low level rent-a-clerks who are given some outline copy & told to get busy screwing around with entries on Wikipedia/Twitter/Facebook etc.

      But when all is said & done, it is the door knocking & chats at the YES stalls or discussions at the work’s water cooler where the argument will be won.

      It is disturbing but probably ineffective in the grand scheme of things to change copy on Wikipedia just to score cheap political points.

    90. big jock says:

      Come come he can easily provide a positive case.Account 153756723 Nat West Mr Alastair Darling.

    91. North chiel says:

      As regards the positive case for the union, interesting developments
      In Iraq, as apparently ( for the next 6 weeks at least ) British forces
      Will only be utilised “for humanitarian purposes ” including the evacuation
      Of endangered civilians fleeing Isis .”oh look Scottish electorate how
      Wonderful our “British Union” forces are now.
      After a NO vote come September 18th it won’t be very long before
      Cameron and the Tories bring in conscription , and their defence industry
      Shareholder chums will be “rubbing their hands” in anticipation. Thereafter
      The 2 year absence from the “front line” (I do wonder why?)for our
      Scots troops will be well and truly over’. A “better together life” for our conscripted
      Children and grandchildren then?

    92. CameronB Brodie says:

      G H Graham
      My efforts were fundamentally childish, yet strangely satisfying. Unfortunately the changes didn’t last long. Still, that was one British Labour bod tied up with house keeping, for a brief while anyway.

    93. Lesley-Anne says:

      Now that is what I call a CRACKING headline Marcia. 😉

      To be honest I think the headline in tomorrow’s Sunday Herald can be deciphered out of political speak into normal speak as this.

      Thanks to the absolute incompetence and stupidity of the unionist parties they are now ******! 😛

    94. Thepnr says:

      Some photos of Wings supporters putting the positive case for Independence by engaging with the public at Arbroath Seafest today.

    95. Adrian B says:

      Labour fears brain drain with 15% of MPs ready to quit
      Doubts about Ed Miliband’s leadership are said to be driving an exodus in the runup to next year’s general election.

      http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/09/labour-fears-brain-drain-mps-quit?CMP=twt_gu

    96. ailsa craig says:

      I have been following Wings for a while now but have been a bit nervous of joining in the commentary, but this wonderful letter has given me fresh hope, after being a little down after Alec’s lack of oomph on Tuesday. Have to be honest! There must be some way of making it more public; I assume Robert will not be bothered about copyright. [?]
      I was going to run off a ream of copies and deliver them locally and there is a Tommy Sheridan do in Stranraer, Tuesday, where I’ll be that day, which could be another delivery point. [poss audience already convinced? S seems a NT stronghold] I used to publish my Politics text/work books so I know the drill. It is 5 pages long in Pages [I am a Mac] but can’t see any way of shortening it much; smaller text, skip pix?

      Any ideas anyone?

    97. fred blogger says:

      marcia
      wow, what a blistering headline. the story unfolds, as BT unravels.

    98. Lesley-Anne says:

      What a load of cracking pictures there Thepnr. Puts my wee picture show earlier on today to shame. The only question I have is who had the bigger attraction to the visitors, the Wings stall or Tartan Tory’s car? 😛

    99. Edward says:

      Reading the Sunday Herald twitter page for their Front Page splash, you notice the unionists commenting are quite rattled, notice Labour MSP James Kelly getting is idiotic comment in. Has Kelly realised that Labour as it is , is quite finished?

    100. Croompenstein says:

      @Marcia – Good as always.. the kamikaze reference reminded me of an old story…

      The Japanese air force commanders called the pilots in for a meeting, they all sat down to listen to the presentation. The commander said “Pilots our imperial Japan is under threat and we must ask you to make the ultimate sacrifice. We want you to fly your planes in to the American warships to detonate your bombs, you will die of course but if you happen to survive we will provide you with cyanide tablets to take so you will die in the knowledge you died for the Emperor, now any questions”

      A wee guy at the back put his hand up and asked…

      “Eh! are you right in the f*ckin heid?”

    101. Edward says:

      Adrian B
      Love the Obeserver(Guardian)’s take on Labour MP’s quitting , as a ‘brain drain’. Surely they have to have brain’s in the first place?

      Note that it quote Murphy and Darling considering quitting

      I don’t think they need to worry about that as they will be redundant anyway

    102. The Dug says:

      Thanks for your kind comments. In case anyone’s in any doubt, these questions are purely rhetorical. You know, I know, many others know the score regarding the NT/BT case.

      I just thought I’d pull together into one place the current state of the other side’s campaign primarily for don’t knows to mull over as they are the one’s we need to connect with at present and especially as there will be more debates etc

      I would hope it’s also a direct challenge to No voters, particularly soft No voters, to look afresh at the arguement.

      In my view, currency is their last desperate throw of the dice. So if you know any DKs why not point them here?
      Robert

    103. laukat says:

      @Marcia

      Had a look at the front page on the Sunday Herald. Looks to me as though Salmond has picked his fight and if he wins Yes wins

    104. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Does anyone know when and/or where Jim Murphy’s Roadshow ends?

    105. NODROG says:

      O/T Rev Stu can you utilize your investigative abilities on our behalf? Many rumors persist about Clare Ridge development in the West Atlantic off coast Scotland and Shetland with potential to substantially change the economy of Scotland(independent) or UK(Including Scotland) provided it proves to be a viable discovery. I am now retired from the oil industry but was well aware of the thick oil available in the Clare Field many years ago which could only be developed with current improved technology. On top of that I understand Hurricane have now found substantial quantities of oil and gas at the other end of the Clare Ridge. Is there any truth in the rumor that a “DA” notice has been clamped on information relating to this discovery?

    106. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Laukat at 11.41

      Exactly. That was what the debate tactics were all about.
      And what joy watching most of the MSM making arses of themselves. As I said in an earlier post the No Currency Union boat is leaking badly and evidence of that is in today’s Sun and Herald in which it it looks like Gardham has worked it out.

      Tomorrow’s Sunday Herald will be worth keeping

    107. Tam Jardine says:

      Thanks Robert – what a great letter. Good luck getting a reply – AD hasn’t answered a searching question honestly during this campaign to my knowledge.

      It’s funny but I was a bit downcast this week because the First Minister didn’t destroy Darling as I had hoped. I wanted a KO.

      Over the last few days I am seeing the wisdom, and the BT folly. Darling’s case has been boiled down to one thing, and as the fantastic letter in the Herald by the director of the Adam Smith Institute and others suggest, that one thing is pure shite.

      It is bringing this previous nagging doubt for undecided into the open, exploring it and now people are talking about it. And the more they talk and listen and argue, the more people will switch on to the truth. And as BT have portrayed it (keeping the pound) as the one barrier, conceding in every other area that Scotland can be a successful independent country (nice one Alex) and Europe is not going to kick us out, once that last barrier is broken down undecided and soft Nos are ready to come with us.

      AD has shot his bolt, or load or whatever too early – like all the other big plays they have an immediate fear value but within a short period of time the truth pushes through the fog of propaganda.

      That’s what I ask people – are you coming with us on the independence thing? Have a great Sunday team x

    108. Marcia says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      Has anyone (apart from political junkies) noticing it having started? The audiences have been rather tiny.

    109. Tam Jardine says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      In a lunatic asylum?

    110. Lesley-Anne says:

      NODROG ianbeag and I have been having a wee side discussion about oil to the West of Shetland over on the other thread. Thanks to ian because he has uncovered this wee gem. I hope it helps. 😉

      http://www.scotsindependent.org/features/game_changer.htm

    111. Rock says:

      Sinky,

      “The Yes grass roots campaign are pure amateurs compared to the UK establishment media manipulators supported by the Labour luvvies in he BBC”

      Totally agree.

      I have been saying for a long time: Do not underestimate the British establishment. They are NOT clowns or muppets, even if that is the impression they give.

      Don’t laugh at them, be very afraid of them – they will do absolutely anything to prevent Scotland from becoming independent.

      If there is one thing in the world that needs to be ‘stone dead’, it is the British establishment.

      Hopefully, the people of Scotland will succeed in giving the British establishment by far the biggest blow they ever got.

    112. @Ian Brotherhood

      Does anyone know when and/or where Jim Murphy’s Roadshow ends?

      September 19th
      Mount Doom
      Final words – “My precious (career)”

    113. Croompenstein says:

      @Rock – Do not underestimate the British establishment

      Rock I really hope that they have underestimated Alex Salmond, don’t forget that Alex has been among them and has a fair idea how they work. They are indeed a formidable foe but let’s pray they have had their day.

    114. george wardlaw says:

      can anyone tell me when we are independent can any of the Westminster MPs be brought to justice for some of the crimes that they have committed. Against the Scottish People and the nation as a whole. Can the likes of the politicians who voted us to go to war with Iraq be held to account for their actions. I do not understand how a political idiot like Blair can be able to take a country to war on the evidence of lies and deceit and be immune to retribution for all the lives which he is responsible for loosing.

    115. Lesley-Anne says:

      Sorry for O/T here but I’ve just come across this wee ditty. I think it is a wee cracker.

      http://tinyurl.com/mpex3vb

      Over to you Better Together.

      Vote YES!

    116. NODROG says:

      Thank you Lesley-Anne for that information. But my question to Rev Stu remains can we find out if the UK Gov has slapped a “DA” notice on the information relating to these vast resources? Which in my opinion are definitely there.

    117. Eilidh says:

      Nice bullying article, well done. Bodes well for the mentality of an Independent Scotland.

    118. Taranaich says:

      @Croompenstein: Super vid, the beard looks even better in real life and the ponytail even better.

      Thank ye kindly! I might put a wee report up on my blog.

      @mary vasey: Also taranaich was it your niece who presented bag to Nicola? Bonny Quine. Nicola, like alec seems totally at ease with peeps and listens unlike most politicians who can’t wait to leave.

      It was indeed. She insisted on being there for Nicola coming, and was thrilled to be nominated to give her a present: a local artist’s sculpture of the Vital Spark from Neil Munro’s Para Handy novels. Bursting with pride for her.

    119. Eilidh says:

      P.s. Do you all want Darling to have replied to Salmond’s questions during the debate in his own blood enscribed on a Saltire?! I recall him answering to the question ‘Do you think Scotland could be independent?’ With ‘yes, if it were economically possible’. Is that not an answer then?

    120. Lesley-Anne says:

      Sorry I couldn’t answer your question about the DA notice NODROG.

      If I were a betting person, which I’m not by the way, I’d say I would not be surprised if that was indeed the case. Remember David Cameron made a *ahem* secret visit to Shetland just the other week where he met with high flying oil company officials. He did of course refuse to answer any question fired at him from the press who had managed to meet him in Shetland.

      When you put these two things together, Cameron’s Shetland visit and refusal to answer questions, tells me that 2 and 2 equals 5 and that a DA notice IS in place. 😛

    121. TD says:

      Tam Jardine
      You have summed up how I feel exactly. I too was disappointed after Tuesday’s debate because I had wanted to see AD humiliated. But when you think about it, the only people who would have enjoyed that would have been those who were already going to vote Yes. The DKs would have been turned off by that and AD might even have got a sympathy vote.

      No, Alex Salmond was playing a much more sophisticated game as the polls have shown with DKs saying he won. I think we are starting to see the master tactician coming into his game – and just because I don’t understand what he is up to does not mean he is wrong.

    122. Croompenstein says:

      @Taranaich – Thank ye kindly! I might put a wee report up on my blog

      Nice one Taranaich, I put a post on your blog earlier in response to a poor deluded one called Conor who has obviously bought the Darling/BT pish

    123. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

      @AdrianB

      I didn’t quite follow that post ?
      15% of Labour MPs have a brain ( that many?) or they have 15% of an average brain?

      Good to see that that many can see the writing on the wall and are getting out now.

      Hopefully, the Scottish electorate can remove the most obnoxious remaining ones from power with a democratic vote in 2015 and 2016.

    124. David Stevenson says:

      James Kelly is our MSP. Every fortnight we have to suffer his semi-literate ramblings in the local paper. Inbetween, we suffer the same from Tom Greatrex, Labour MP and shadow Energy minister. He was parachuted in just before the 2010 general election with his predecessor, Tommy McAvoy, getting the opportunity to collect £300 a day in the House of Lords (which he does, with regularity). Greatrex must be one of the few who would cite “ageing Labour MP with a massive majority” as a reason for moving to Cambuslang. Most people just mention the trains and the M74…

      McAvoy and Kelly used their positions to employ family members from the public purse when that was an option and McAvoy benefited from the expenses while buying his London pad. Great days…. Shame some of those doors have closed!

      I recall in the run up to the blitzing of Iraq that McAvoy boasted of his belief in “fighting for my country”. Which country that would be is academic as despite being invited by me to furnish details of his military service, brave Tommy went all silent. There must be about 10 Scottish Labour Iraq war apologists in the Lords besides McAvoy. Reid, Adams, Moonie, Liddell, O’Neill, Foulkes, McFall and McConnell (in his capacity as Blair’s Holyrood puppet) supplemented by Robertson and Martin wbo I have no doubt would have voted for it if they could. Other ones such as Adam Ingram went from the MoD to defence “consultant”. And didn’t they do a great job….

      Sorry: well off topic. Rant over. Please don’t mention Kelly again…..

    125. NODROG says:

      Again thank you Lesley-Anne. Cameron’s visit to the Shetlands and the Unpublished Poll, neither of which have been explained to the British public never mind the Scottish public. Freedom of information and democracy could be a wonderful thing if any of us ever lived in such a society – vote YES and we live in hope. Rev Stu can you investigate the possible “DA” notice?

    126. Lesley-Anne says:

      I do try NODROG. Although most on here might disagree and just I am very trying! 😛

    127. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

      Labour MPs thinking of coming back to stand as MSPs – surely not?
      I can hear the knives being sharpened already.

      Labour back stabbing – they are the past masters.
      Carnage !

    128. Lesley-Anne says:

      They really are treating the electorate like imbeciles if they think they can walk out of WM and straight into Holyrood. I actually hope that IS what they are thinking and they get well and truly kicked up the earse for treating the electorate in such a shabby way. The electorate do not accept disrespect from politicians too well.

    129. Democracy Reborn says:

      O/T (apologies)

      ITV News earlier tonight : the UK govt will be sending NHS teams to Gaza to treat victims injured & maimed by Israeli weaponry. The same weaponry, some of which is sold by to Israel by UK companies and licenced by….. the UK govt. The perverse irony.

      For any undecideds reading this thread, & particularly those who support the Palestinian cause – this is what ‘punching above our weight’ as part of ‘a strong UK’ gives you.

    130. Hector says:

      To Lesley Anne I’m due to attend a women only event soon….. Been thinking hard about why the referendum and indie Scotland is particularly important to women! My gut instinct is the relationship between love n politics ……just love your comments…. And, would be interested in your take on this…….I want to move ah way from the macho sterling…WMD arguments ….important as they are……women care about love …..child care is patronising….wee ginger dug has some great pointers but I’m thinking more about women..love..empathy..patriotism…?.What society are we aiming to build based on female values….Magrit n Johann are excluded….too macho…..let’s talk about love…..any ideas?

    131. Famous15 says:

      There is no such thing as a DA notice.The old D notices lost effect after DORA expired. You do not need a D notice when all of UK Media is complicit in sustaining UKOK no thanks.

    132. Lesley-Anne says:

      Typical WM there DR. Lets never forget though when Israel STARTED this attack on Gaza Scotland was the ONLY country to offer medical assistance to those injured by Israeli bombs and missiles in Scotland. Where was Cameron when we made that offer. Oh that’s right he was not interested cause what we were offering Gaza did not fit with HIS plan for the Middle East!

    133. Grouse Beater says:

      Must be the first time on this site an essay says all it needs in a couple of sharp, pithy paragraphs and then bloats its way along a contrived path.

      Darling said nothing new, offered nothing new, managing only one well rehearsed insult, “Alex, have you ever considered you might be wrong?” which drew enough laughter and jeering to drown out Salmond’s superior reposte, “But, Alistair,” I am saying you are right when I quote you, ‘A shared currency is the best option.'”

      Everything Darling said that night proved without a shadow of doubt that he is leading the Fear Campaign – every word, every step, and every lie.

      I regard his attacks on Scotland’s integrity and future as infamous.

    134. Molly says:

      David Stevenson

      I see Tom Greatrex was mentioned in a BBC piece saying along the lines of as 80% of our heating comes from gas and ‘declining oil reserves’, shale has the potential to be part of our energy mix etc

      It’s a funny thing, I emailed our Secretary of State, (you know the man who is supposed to represent Scotland in Westminster ) to ask him to point me in the direction of the Parliamentary discussions re the new licenses for fracking. Even to ask what role he had in it, as it is a local and national concern for all in Scotland.

      That was on the 30th of July and the response-zip.

      Genuine question?

      When Westminster takes these decisions without apparent consultation , whose job is it to inform people in Scotland ? MPs , the Secretary of State or the BBC ?

    135. Famous15 says:

      Out canvassing today I was struck by the awareness of many respondents and in particular I had the feeling that women with families were more strongly YES than a week ago. The debate was mentioned but it’s effect was much more positive in the ‘other than sterling’ issues. The hard nosed NOes were as they always were,but the DK going on YES were much more informed and I suspect will vote YES.

      Feeling good. Vote YES!

    136. Mary Bruce says:

      Hector, Women care about the same things as men, it appears that we just take a bit longer coming to decisions.

      One thing we really hate though is being lied to. Maybe you could talk about that? There’s tons of material to choose from! 🙂

      The most convincing thing for both men and women in this campaign is logical argument, evidence and exposing myths and lies.

    137. Lesley-Anne says:

      To be honest Hector my reasons may not necessarily be those you are looking for but here goes.

      The basic reasons for me are the often old favourites for a fairer society, a more caring society and a more equal society. I hate the idea that we have homeless people living rough on our streets in country that is so rich, it just should not be happening. Why do we have bedroom tax benefits being cut etc? The reason is because Cameron and his friends caused the banking crash and they now expect the ill, infirm, disabled, poor, low paid, unemployed etc to pick up the tab for THEIR ****up! This is NOT what I call a fair society. A fair society would have ensured that those who CAUSED the problem paid the price.

      I’m voting YES to save our NHS. I know a fair bit about the Scottish NHS, I have been a patient in and out of hospital ever since I was diagnosed with cancer in 2010. I’m now clear and in remission but I would have hated to have under gone what I went through down South. You just have to watch the news and it seems just about every other day there is yet another NHS story about patients waiting times, drugs being denied, not enough nurses etc.

      The Scottish NHS is not perfect, and I don’t think anyone will disagree with that. However what we do have is an NHS in Scotland that is doing an absolutely fantastic job on a threadbare budget. Remember this budget is NOT set by Holyrood but is set by Westminster.

      Under the Barnett Formula Scottish NHS gets a set amount of what the WM budget is on the English NHS. Nothing wrong with that you might say but consider this. WM is privatising the NHS this results in a situation whereby the money they pay the private companies is NOT taken into account when the Barnett formula is applied to NHS spending in England. If you follow this to the ultimate end result then the Barnett formula for Scottish NHS will be ZERO because WM is well on its way to privatising all of the NHS. In fact I read an article recently where Staffordshire is now looking at privatising cancer care and end of life palatable care. This is just too much. At the end of the day WM is doing one thing with the English NHS, they are Americanising it and the people down South are walking blind folded right into a health nightmare.

      I think you might get some other ideas about why I’m fighting for the NHS in Scotland by watching these videos.

      This is Allyson Pollock talking about how the privatisation in Englad is worked out.

      http://tinyurl.com/m6ce72b

      These three are all with Dr Phillipa Whitford. She is a Breast cancer specialist who works in Kilmarnock I think. Phillipa appears around 21 minutes 30 seconds in on the first of these videos.

      http://tinyurl.com/mebf7do

      http://tinyurl.com/lgnonsr

      http://tinyurl.com/lk9x5ro

      This last video is of Dr. Catriona Pagliari who is another consultant.

      http://tinyurl.com/lo6hpnm

    138. Lesley-Anne says:

      Oops!

      Looks like I’ve put too many links into my reply there Hector sorry. I’m now in moderation for a wee while or it might be long while until Stu gets round to considering giving me another slap on the wrist. 😛

    139. Alistair Grapevine says:

      Great letter we should all forward it to our WM or MSPs and ask for there thoughts( not the independiance supporting reps ). Interesting to see what response we get if any.

    140. mr thms says:

      http://www.wealthynation.org/currency-not-a-problem/

      “The easiest solution, therefore, would be for Scotland to continue using the pound, with or without a currency union, safe in the knowledge that, as an important part of the sterling economy, the Bank of England would have to take Scotland’s interests into full account when setting policy. The currency problem just isn’t a problem.”

    141. Lesley-Anne says:

      Got to love that man geeo. He plays the unionists for the incompetent shambolic buffoons that they all are. I’m sure all the time he is killing himself laughing, internally, at their pathetic actions. They try and set out the traps day after day for him but it is the unionists who end up in the trap. BRILLIANT! 😛

    142. geeo says:

      Lesley-Anne says
      Oops!
      Looks like I’ve put too many links into my reply there Hector sorry. I’m now in moderation for a wee while or it might be long while until Stu gets round to considering giving me another slap on the wrist.” 
      ……………

      FREE THE WINGY ONE !!!
      FREE THE WINGY ONE !!!

      Let her go,
      Or we vote no….!

      Trying ma best for you here Lesley – Anne…lol

    143. Lesley-Anne says:

      Thanks for your help geeo! 😛

      I’m sure it’s only a matter of time now. 😉

    144. geeo says:

      Mr.S is a smart cookie, sets traps brilliantly and executes the plan exquisitely time and again.

      Always thought drawing out BT into the ‘no CU’ statements was a ploy to give us the moral high ground for dumping a debt share should they get a bit ‘arsey’ and maybe the pound without CU was plan A.

      Either way, when WM comes running for CU, we give them it, but on OUR terms, if they still act ‘arsey’ we can simply tell them to ram it and go with no CU anyway.

      A Yes vote has serious ramifications for politics on these islands, as the truth shall surely out.

      Doubt the ruk populace will take the truth too well.

    145. Lesley-Anne says:

      I very much doubt either geeo. As has been said before by others on here, I’d love to be a fly on the wall when Cameron, Clegg and Milliband tell the electorate during next year’s General Election why they all REFUSED £5 Billion a year from Scotland to help pay off THEIR debt! 😛

      As far as the C.U. thingy goes, I’m now at the point where I hope they keep it up and then on the 19th of September when we start negotiations they sheepishly ask about a currency union at which Alex turns round to them and says “well it’s like this guys. Ever since the referendum started I was saying we’d have a currency union and YOU guys kept saying NAW! well guess what guys? I’M the one who is now saying NAW! You had your chance to get help with YOUR debt but you blew it guys. You blew it BIG time.” 😛

    146. thedogphilosopher says:

      @geeo 2.08am (Insomniacs for Yes)

      When reading over that STV link, was struck by the bragging tone of Blare McDougall in the last four paragraphs. Echoes what others on the Naw side are claiming: “they think it’s all over” because of the currency issue.

      Made me think of another term used in football when a team becomes over-confident and loses its edge:

      C.O.M.P.L.A.C.E.N.C.Y.

      If so, how many ‘naws’ might not bother to vote, especially when most of them seem less than half-interested in the whole (democratic) process?

      Just a comforting thought to have with some Horlicks.

    147. geeo says:

      http://www.jpost.com/Jerusalem-Report/Jewish-World/Scottish-independence-the-Jewish-view

      Found this article from 2011.
      Worth a wee read.

      This bit in particular kind of makes darling and his blood and soil slur look a bit more stupid if possible!
      ………
      “I was surprised and delighted by the win in May,” dentist and long-time SNP voter Frank Angell tells The Report. “The SNP had the most positive campaign and tended to give Scots a feeling of confidence in their abilities. In general, I would not support a nationalist party as they tend to be racist. The SNP, however, is an inclusive party and seeks a better solution for its population regardless of their origins.”

    148. geeo says:

      “Insomniacs for Yes”

      Brilliant!!
      Chapping doors at 3am might be a voter turn off tho…lol.

    149. a2 says:

      @Molly

      I think you just put your finger on something important there.

      “When Westminster takes these decisions without apparent consultation , whose job is it to inform people in Scotland ? MPs , the Secretary of State or the BBC ?”

      All the Labour and Lib MPs and the media have trapped themselves into not being able to squeak about anything the Government does that affects Scotland either now or after a no vote for some considerable time as they can’t be seen to complain about lack of representation or consultation. basically the Tories can do what they like uncontested so we are actually in a worse situation than ever. Up until recently there was at least some resistance and scrutiny they can’t do that now or for the foreseeable future. they have effectively gagged themselves.

    150. Those muppets who are determined to vote versus Scotland (mostly SLAB scabs) in Sept NEVER offer an alternative that complies with the promises made by BamCam,Clegg or Mibbeland.

      Clegg and his FibDems are dead ducks.
      BamCam will form the next Govt in 2015.
      Mibbeland promises to follow the Tory Budget Plans for two years IF he wins.

      Ludicrously, Scottish Tory Voters elected a Westminster party that promised to Exclude ALL Scots Tories from the House of Commons in their 2010 Manifesto.

      BamCam promises to repeat the process in his 2015 Manifesto and enact Boundary Changes that Bars his own Tory voters in Scotland from getting Representation in the Commons.

      ZERO Freedom – AND – zero reps at Westminster.?
      “Irony” or Treachery.?
      Dementia testing should be compulsary for Scots Tories.

      SLAB scabs think that, in lending Kipper Flipper to BT, BamCam is Ceding Scotland to them – but – Mibbeland can never be PM, BECAUSE Boundary Changes ENSURE the Tories will Govern in perpetuity with their extra 20 x new seats in England.

      No Scot needs to be a seer like Nostradamus when the Unionists of BT has laid out the future after 2015.

      The Currency Union garbage is a blind alley to keep Scots from examining the politics laid before us by each putrid party of this useless Union.

      Meanwhile MSM,BBC and STV IGNORE these despicable democratic deficits that follow BT promises.

      When Belfast controls Scots Passport processing AND controls Scotland`s Ancient Borders – we are nothing.

      Freedom`s just another word for nothing left to lose.

    151. steven Seagull says:

      Move over Darling. Crackin’ tune mid-sixties . My aunty had it…Suzanne Boil, n Ewank macgregor I fink.

      Aff subject,creepy weirdo londoner.Hoose flipping thieving freak. Claims to be an ersatz scotchjocko.

      Tipping ma helmet in your direction your wankiness.

      Gets pumpido senseless by oor genious first minister oan the telly.

      Corrupt brit media

      400,000 scoobies, scooped fae our taxes. This year alane.

      Whit!.

      40 days tae boot them scum oot.

      Nae mair.

      VOTE YES FOR FREEDOM.

    152. ronnie anderson says:

      Arbroath Seafest.

      I doubt the many visitors to the Festival will who encountered the Wings campaign team & they’re unique style in they’re approach to political campaigning ( more memorable than the NO campains ( 2 people )many thanks to all.

      Thepnr. the Wee many, small in stature, big in heart,for giving us Wingers the chance to engage with the Public & getting us out from our bedrooms & away from our keyboard’s for a brilliant weekend.

    153. Ken500 says:

      Ace YES car

      : – )

    154. john king says:

      Great article Robert
      If only the msm were to have the common decency to challenge those buffoons with questions like yours, this referendum would be a shoe in, instead we have to fight (oor ain folk in most cases) to emerge as a nation we CAN be proud of!

      Taranaich says
      “You might spot a certain bearded cybernat there, as well as his brilliant wee niece!”

      I couldn’t see you Taranaich the guy with the long pony tail must have got in the way. 😉
      Your neice did you proud,
      what a braw wee lassie.

      There was a sense of comradeship and general cameraderie in that video that caused an unbidden smile to spread across my face,
      Isn’t Nichola Sturgoen just a lovely person?

      Patrician says
      “Some pictures from today’s Seafest in Arbroath.”

      Love it Patrician
      you even managed to get my best side, and Irene will be pleased she’s not in the photos, (Im sure she thinks the camera will steal her soul,) I had a great day and talking to the passing folks doesn’t half recharge your batteries for the upcoming battle,

      Edward (G?) Robinson says
      ” YES stickers are multiplying on cars at a fast rate now and total strangers on the road are giving each other the ‘thumbs up ‘ :D”

      I myself must have handed out a hundred of those yesterday and there was about 5 of us handing out stickers leaflets etc and that doesnt include the YES stall further down the a4 posters for YES were flying out of the box when folk were directed to them they were keen to have them. 🙂

      Tam Jardine says

      Ian Brotherhood

      In a lunatic asylum?”

      What?
      like this you mean?
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adB7erxy6qk

      Geeo says

      “Insomniacs for Yes”

      Brilliant!!
      Chapping doors at 3am might be a voter turn off tho…lol.”

      Eh,
      kin Aa jine? 🙂

      Talking of insomnia
      I woke up about 02.00 and the light in our bedroom made it look like broad daylight,
      I looked outside and the “supermoon” was immense,
      It wis awfy braw.

    155. Tam Jardine says:

      Steven Seagull

      Totally agree. Not enough has been made of Darling’s corrupt practices. Why should anyone listen to a guy who has milked the taxpayer to the extent he has.

      Anyone want a reminder, this Telegraph piece scratches the surface: https://archive.today/cupid

      The Right Honourable Alistair Darling MP?

      Aye, right!

    156. Grouse Beater says:

      Not enough has been made of Darling’s corrupt practices.

      Like most other unionist politicians, Darling’s entire investment is in the south of the border. But you’ve just proved that Salmond didn’t attempt to discredit Darling, he didn’t play the man, as the lying newspapers subsequently claimed almost to an editor.

      What we got was hectoring from Darling, scolding us as if we are children, accusations, insults, and threats but absolutely no guarantee of new substantial political and economic powers for Scotland.

    157. Tam Jardine says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      What a crazy clip to start a Sunday with…

      In AD’s quiet moments of sleepy contemplation he perhaps imagines returning ‘home’ to London to become Lord Darling of Brunton or some such baws – walking into the house of lords over palm leaves, followed meekly by millions of grateful Scots in awe at his magnificence.

      How both the sides of the house will applaud him as he sits on the woolsack (Blair MacDougall in Darling’s dream).

      Caskets filled with gold coins and platters of banknotes, and treasure will be laid at his feet, and Tony will be by his side, resplendent in a red toga, with grapes and wine at the ready.

      David Cameron approaches, dragging Starkey on a leash behind him and makes a humble, respectful bow.

      God Save the Queen rings out, except the word ‘Queen’ has been clumsily replaced by the word ‘Alistair’.

      Truly he is a hero of his own imagination.

      How does the dream end? As Darling’s triumph over the Scottish people is complete, his conscience begins to nag him and is transported to a food bank I’m Edinburgh. He finds himself on the shelf, and Denis Canavan begins distributing Alistair’s body parts to the starving, ravenous poor…

      Aye – now who’s dreaming Tam – that last bit about the conscience kicking In doesnae ring true at all!

    158. Another Union Dividend says:

      SoS reports that the former first minister Henry McLeish has criticised Labour’s pledge to block a currency union claiming it was a threat against Scottish voters.

      The former Labour politician, who led Scotland for just over a year between 2000 and 2001, said Labour’s stance would annoy and irritate Scots.

      In Sunday Herald David Hayman marks Alan and Mrs Cochrane’s card.

      And don’t forget that in the Edinburgh Evening News support for YES went from 47% to 54% AFTER the Salmond / Darling debate.

    159. galamcennalath says:

      Excellent appraise of Labour and their part in the Nae campaign on Bella.

      http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/08/10/the-sad-and-ugly-end-of-british-socialism/

      “They want their baw back and they want Salmond destroyed. And that is the beginning and the end of their vision.”

    160. Robert Peffers says:

      @jamieboy says:9 August, 2014 at 9:25 pm:

      “I expected this and there is no doubt AS has the form but instead we got a question about driving on the wrong side of the road.”

      You were either watching a different debate to the one I saw or you were sucked in by the seeded crowd cheers & boos and the Darling lies. I’m editing, In parts, the whole debate and adding subtitle notes to highlight the Darling lies, seeded audience cheers and jeers, and the answered questions from Salmond but also the unanswered questions and lies of Darling.

      It tells quite a different story than that you here depict. I hope to have the first part of the debate on-line today. It may change your perception and show you how to better spot the way these deceptions are propagated to the unwary like yourself.

      Salmond’s performance and honesty were head, shoulders and his whole body right down to his toes above Darling’s bluster, evasion and lies & deceits.

    161. caz-m says:

      Beware of some lowlife scumbags that frequent this site.

    162. Jim Hendry says:

      Whilst I agree with many of the comments made by Robert Moffat there was one comment that particularly made me raise my eyebrows. “Trade. Are you seriously trying to tell us that businessmen and companies will suddenly give up trying to sell their goods and make money just because Scotland decides to run its own affairs?”

      His following points in relation to an Independent Scotland’s trade in the global community, I cannot fault, but it does raise one very important question in my mind. Why on earth would anyone in their right mind, once free of the shackles of a costly, incompetent and corrupt Westminster, wish to get into bed with the even more corrupt, costly and incompetent mafia in Brussels?

      True independence should mean Scotland being free to trade with the rest of the UK, Europe and the Global community without being tied to the apron strings of either Westminster, Brussels or America. Membership of the EU would mean selling our hard fought for independence down the river.

    163. heedtracker says:

      The actual rulers of Scotland, from playing fields of Eton, via Greggs the bakers counter Blysthewood square, future PM Bojo and his merry band of Labour in Scotland fright crew

      http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cartoon/2014/aug/10/boris-johnson-mp-david-cameron

      http://www.scottishlabour.org.uk/blog/entry/ive-got-alex-salmonds-number-and-im-calling-him-out

      How many Curran teamGB whoppers can she squeeze out on a page?

    164. Mealer says:

      I think its time we started pressuring Labour MSPs to explain why they think we should vote NO.Theres an awful lot of them keeping very quiet.Keeping some wriggle room in case there’s a YES vote.Call them out!

    165. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dunkie says: 9 August, 2014 at 9:41 pm:

      “Letter in today’s Herald”,

      While this is a brilliant letter from such a good source it does miss out a very important truth. The Bank of England isn’t. That is it is not now, and never has, ever belonged to England. It began due to the efforts of the, (very suspect), London Scot, William Patterson. This man was a close friend of the famous author, (and infamous English spy in Scotland), Daniel Defoe, (Aye! That Daniel Defoe).

      He, Patterson, in 1694, set up a subscription scheme for wealthy English public to subscribe to a fund to bail out the, (badly in debt from wars), English Parliament that, in 1688, had deposed James II of England, (The Glorious Revolution). However, they really had no powers to also depose him as monarch of Scotland because Scotland was still an independent Kingdom in 1688. They thus began the Jacobite uprisings that ran until after the Treaty of Union and on until 1745. So The English kingdom really needed a Treaty of Union. So just why was a London Scot working at bailing out the English Kingdom while his own country had been under the pressure of the English Navigation Acts and 7 year’s of bad harvests? That Patterson inspired subscription scheme was the birth of the so called, “Bank of England”.

      For their, (ahem!), “Sterling”,efforts the scheme was given the English monarchy Royal Charter and became a private concern titled, “The Governor & Company of the Bank of England”. Named not because the kingdom owned it but because it banked with it. The following year Patterson was back in Scotland and the prime mover in the birth of the disastrous Darien Expedition. While his close friend, Defoe the spy, was in Edinburgh reporting back to Westminster all his Secret Service activity, (these letters have been kept). Note that The BofE only came under state ownership in 1946. Not as an English asset but as a bipartite United Kingdom asset.

      Furthermore, there is no legal basis for the Westminster claim that the assets of the bipartite United Kingdom are to be divided up on the population ratios that pertain now or indeed have pertained at any time. The Treaty has only two signatory Kingdoms and the legal position is they were two equally sovereign and independent KINGDOMS not as countries. Thus, at best, the division of assets is a matter of legal negotiation through the international courts. All the above facts are verifiable. Check them out for yourselves.

    166. geeo says:

      @heedtracker.

      Think the question should be, was there anything true in that piece !

      Hope she likes my comment.
      Won’t hold breath for an answer tho..
      ………..

      “That’s strange, i am pretty sure Scotland will be using the pound, with or without CU.
      A.Salmond told Darling this during the debate, maybe he did not hear the First Minister due to being all pointy and shouting ?
      To quote lamont, “which part of Scotland will use the pound do you not understand”?

      Sure the phrase is ‘deflective rhetoric’, hating the SNP is to hate those who elected them, straight answer please, 

      Why are you and Scottish labour united with the hated tories to conspire against the best interests of the Scottish electorate”?

    167. Iain says:

      Robert: to write so much about Darling accords him far too much respect, and taking issue with him assumes he really has a coherent political philosophy about which he cares. Those of us who knew him of old recognised that there was nothing more than ambition.

    168. Gerry says:

      Here’s the problem, all the YES voters seem to think they are right, its all about opinions. For someone to say Salmond was head & shoulders about Darling must of been watching another debate. Ended up the usual politicians slagging match, What actually came out of that? Nothing, still waiting for Salmonds plan b,c or d. Same on here its all about opinion. Who’s right?

    169. Robert Peffers says:

      @BuckieBraes says: 9 August, 2014 at 9:42 pm:
      “I say, here’s a wheeze. Why don’t we, as independence supporters, try to help out the ‘Better Together/UKOK/NX THANKS’ side by coming up with a positive case for the union ourselves?”

      But! But! But! I’ve been doing that syne Ah wis a wee laddie in 1946 after my brilliant history teacher, (who also ran the School’s Debating Society), chose the subject of Scottish independence as the subject of the society’s next debate.

      I started to read and ask questions. Know what? It was afu hard tae fund oot onythin then – and it still is today. I wonder why that could be? Incidentally, anything I found in all those years that seemed to show a benefit for Scotland in the union, has turned out to be either a lie or at best very, very, very doubtful or had hidden downsides.

      Mind you, until Scotland is a proud independent nation again I’ll continue to look for reasons to remain part of the, “UNITED KINGDOM”, for Scotland was British before the Angles gave their name to Angle Land. So whatever happens in the referendum I’ll still be a Briton.

    170. Wee Jonny says:

      Great letter Robert.
      I was talking to a customer a couple o weeks ago about the House Of Lords stripping power from the S.G. and on day 1 of independence we can be shot of them. All the while this man was standing just a few feet away waiting to talk. I thought he was looking for a window cleaner. But no. He jumped right in with “What you have just said is an absolute lie. There is no truth in what you’re saying. Look what’s happening in Ukraine……..” (nice eh?) I said “Hi, I’m Jonny, this is Peter. Would you like to put us straight. Again no. He was looking at the “artwork” on my car (I have my car covered, front, back, bonnet and boot with Yes, Wings(obv) and other pro Indy sites, and “There is no positive case for the union” along both sides) and he then raged “How can you possibly have that on your car or even think that?” I asked him to give Peter and myself a positive case for the union. At this stage he nearly blew up -“The British Empire…… And… And two world wars.” That’s it, nothing else. So vote No people coz there’s yir positive case for the onion;)

    171. Robert Peffers says:

      Andrew Neil couldn’t explore his left hand with his right. He is so biased he never knows whether he is coming or going. He is very much a, “Proud Scot, but”. One in a very long line of such proud Scots, buts. See my post here about Defoe & Patterson.

      By the way if you do decide to check the facts you will find Defoe was, more or less, blackmailed by the then English establishment, there are records, but what of William Patterson? In 1694 he is setting up a fund to bail out the English parliament and in 1695 he’s back in Scotland setting up the disasterous Darien scheme that the English establishment had the Royal Navy & army not assist the Scots expeditioners. They would not even provide them a barrel of clean water. Remember we were still independent but the navy & army were those of a shared monarch and thus supposed to be our’s too.

    172. Onwards says:

      @Robert Peffers,
      That’s a good point.

      The state owned Bank of England should be more accurately called the Bank of Britain, or the Bank of the UK.

      The existing name gives the misleading impression that Scotland doesn’t partly own it.

    173. Gary says:

      the only union the Tories care about is the steady flow of cash coming from newly stolen national assets and donors paying the party for the right asset to be stripped from us.

      could AD also explain if the NHS will be protected from their thieving hands if we stay in the union. could he also make it known that all the negative threats he and his cronies have made at us won’t be made if we were stupid enough to vote no, all i see is evidence of vindictiveness to the poor and needy, to Liverpool who stood up to Cameron’s Idol Thatcher and to anybody who dares to speak the truth to these overgrown school yard bullies more concerned with scoring points for who can be the cruellest in his Bullingdon club, and who can fag off the most than actually run the country.

      I think you will be vindictive to us either way, there is much evidence of your malicious intent in the three years past.

      could they also please show us evidence that they are an actual government that runs the country, because i see no evidence, unless you count controlling the media and controlling the banks and profits for their offshore accounts. not since Disraeli has a government been so irresponsible to the needs of the many that live here so i tell you what AD. leave us alone we don’t need you. you made the mess, you clean it up.

      by the way Tory on Wikipedia is a three hundred year old term used by the Whig party to describe the then current conservative party as brigands, thieves and murderers…..

      so no change there then

      one last thought then, i would rather live in a country like scotland that is ruled by itself than an out of the way, outdated and thoroughly out of touch pack of thieves down in westmister

    174. Robert Peffers says:

      @M4rkyboy says: 9 August, 2014 at 10:25 pm:
      “Kinda infuriating.”

      You heard the story of the wee wumman who went to her GP and said, as she raised her right arm, “Every time I do this with my arm Doctor I get a bad pain”.

      The Doctor replied, “Then stop doing it then – next”.

    175. fred blogger says:

      NODROG
      businessforscotland.co.uk/clair-ridge-and-scotlands-new-oil-boom/
      newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/9556-downing-street-silent-on-camerons-secret-shetland-visit
      https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1525268057691699&substory_index=0&id=1480976298787542
      re clair, “Low salinity water brings award for BP” vid on youtube 100000 barrels /day 2016 on. i also read that it is “sweet” oil…

    176. Robert Peffers says:

      @mary vasey says: 9 August, 2014 at 10:57 pm:
      “Bonny Quine. Nicola, like alec seems totally at ease with peeps and listens unlike most politicians who can’t wait to leave.

      One thing I have noted through the years is the Nicola always makes time for the babies and youngsters. Having first been set on the independence path, way back in 1946, by some of the greats who also knew the value of making time for those not yet of voting age, I can testify that I’ve never voted other than SNP where that vote was available.

    177. Dorothy Devine says:

      Great photos of the Arbroath ” do” – well done everyone involved , I am envious ,wish I could have made it!

    178. Iain Johnstone says:

      The sad reality is that in it’s current state even England has no benefit from being under Westminster’s boot. Sure most of the counties money gets ‘spent’ in England but the people are not the ones seeing the benefit of it. Teachers, Doctors, Emergency service personnel all over worked and under paid for the vital role they play in society. Roads in shocking states of disrepair and public services stretched in many cases beyond breaking point.
      While the Westminster top dogs cash their checks and back the schemes the have personal gain in, Fraking being one of the most recent examples. All the while claiming benefits for second, third and forth homes. Thousand pound rugs while people with real disabilities are forced to jump through hoops run by untrained box tickers all to save a few pennies. Yet they refuse to cut the benefit of those who could but wont work in fear of loosing their votes.

      I only hope that when/if Scotland gets its independence it looks south and see the mess it’s left behind and make the needed changes. A Government body that is more interested in making the needed changes instead of how they look on camera and what “great” deed’s history will remember them by. Scotland has a unique opportunity, few countries gain independence without the costly effects of War.

      Let Scotland be the first nation to take down this false self serving shame the western nations call democracy. Start a new with the first Scottish Republic. Only Citizens can vote and claim benefit, but all can easily become Citizens by contributing to Scotland via working, national/civil service and those who are of retirement age or physically/mental unable to do so would be grant citizenship. With this Scotland would become a true power that it deserves to be. This of course in a perfect scenario.

    179. Robert Peffers says:

      @ailsa craig says: 9 August, 2014 at 11:27 pm:

      “I have been following Wings for a while now but have been a bit nervous of joining in the commentary”.

      Come on in, Ailsa, the waters lovely & warm.

    180. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ian Brotherhood says: 9 August, 2014 at 11:45 pm:

      “Does anyone know when and/or where Jim Murphy’s Roadshow ends?”

      Eh! “Jim Murphy’s Roadshow ends?”, There were lots of road but non much to show for it.

    181. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Nothing, still waiting for Salmonds plan b,c or d.”

      No you’re fucking not, you fucking imbecile.

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/arithmetic-for-thickos/

      My patience with people honking this moronic line is officially completely exhausted.

    182. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Nice bullying article, well done.”

      Oh, PLEASE fuck off. “Bullying”? In what way exactly is someone writing a politely-worded article questioning Alistair Darling’s statements “bullying”? Does it threaten him in some way? Is it likely that it will intimidate Mr Darling into silence? No, of course it fucking isn’t. Someone disagreeing with you in public is not “bullying”, for the love of Christ.

    183. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I recall him answering to the question ‘Do you think Scotland could be independent?’ With ‘yes, if it were economically possible’. Is that not an answer then?”

      No, it isn’t. Although that wasn’t the question he was asked anyway.

      “Will St Johnstone win the Champions League next season?”

      “Yes, if they qualify for it and beat all the other teams.”

      That’s not an answer, that’s an evasion of the answer (which is “No, of course not”). “If” is a qualifier that imposes preconditions on the answer. Alistair Darling used to be the Chancellor Of The Fucking Exchequer. He knows perfectly well whether it’s economically possible or not (it is). Yet he pathologically avoided a simple straight answer about whether or not he agreed with David Cameron that Scotland could be a SUCCESSFUL independent country.

    184. Robert Peffers says:

      @george wardlaw says: 10 August, 2014 at 12:09 am:

      “Can anyone tell me when we are independent can any of the Westminster MPs be brought to justice for some of the crimes that they have committed. Against the Scottish People and the nation as a whole.”

      Why would we even bother, George?
      Look at it this way, there is a perception among them, and many of the Scottish people, that a grateful London Establishment will reward them well with a seat in the House of Lords and/or some other form of honours that carry with it rank & a form of payments.

      They have no chance whatsoever after Scotland leaves. The establishment has then no further use for them and Scotland will not forgive them. They can go wherever and fester away with their conscience.

    185. macart763m says:

      Outstanding post Robert.

      We’ve waited three years and the people of Scotland regardless of their daily politics have only ever asked one thing of BT and Westminster.

      What is the positive case for the union?

      We’re still waiting.

    186. WIred of Hermiston says:

      There’s no point in trying to appeal to his better nature. He has swallowed the Kool-Aid. And always was a bit of a knob to boot.

    187. Robert Peffers says:

      @Mary Bruce says: 10 August, 2014 at 1:23 am:
      “Women care about the same things as men, it appears that we just take a bit longer coming to decisions. One thing we really hate though is being lied to.”

      Great post, Mary, and much nearer the truth than a great many, both men & women, will find comfortable. I’ll be on my big computer later to continue to analyse and highlight both the Darling lies and the way the seeded audience have obviously been instructed to make things seem different than they really were. A crowd jeer and crowd boo at the right time can change a broadcasts whole intent.

      Think of some of those really naff USA sit-coms where every second word is followed by a burst of pre-taped laughter and applause. I edit both sound, video and combined stuff and I record video, both moving and still, and raw audio while putting DVD and Blu-rays together. I’ve often thus listened and viewed a clip with no added music or effects. If you have not ever done so the difference is startling.

      Without the seeded audience and trickery, Eck was miles in front of Darling who was quite breathtaking with both the size and quantity of his lies and deflections.

      I hope, when I get that YouTube first part of the debate on-line that it shows that duplicity.

    188. call me dave says:

      Aye! Alastair the great nictator

      I read The First Minister’s piece in the Herald this morning.
      Very clear very strong message.

      Footy link on off topic. Hearts.

    189. Robert Peffers says:

      @Jim Hendry says: 10 August, 2014 at 8:52 am:
      “Membership of the EU would mean selling our hard fought for independence down the river.”,

      Which are you, Jim, Loony or Establishment lacky?

      Not a single country in the World, never mind the EU, is shackled to only trading within its own borders Unless it chooses to do so
      The EU controlls are nothing like that of the corrupt UK government.

    190. Robert Peffers says:

      @Gerry says: 10 August, 2014 at 10:18 am:

      “Here’s the problem”

      What problem? We haven’t got a problem?

      “All the YES voters seem to think they are right, its all about opinions”.

      Err! No, Gerry, it is all about FACTS

      “What actually came out of that? Nothing, still waiting for Salmonds plan b,c or d. Same on here its all about opinion. That’s FACTS Gerry.

      Sigh! At no time, either verbally or in written script, has Salmond claimed there are any other plans. Here’s is the FACT : – “PLAN – Scotland will use the pound”
      There are, though, several OPTIONS.
      Use the pound with a currency union, (the preferred option).
      Use the pound without a currency union and pegged to the English pound.
      Use the pound without a currency union not pegged to the English pound.
      All other options have been rejected as utter mince.

      Who’s right?

      Guess! Go on, Gerry, Guess.

    191. fred blogger says:

      @Gerry says: 10 August, 2014 at 10:18 am: no it’s all about facts…CU best for all, salmonds preferred option; ie generous plan A, but it’s not best for scotland.
      should plan A continue to be rejected.
      then when indy is won.
      the people of scotland will choose from other options, as already annotated by the SGov
      http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2013/04/5881/8,. the best option for scotland is plan B; sterlingisation. darling is already aware of plan B. note the date on the paper 2013/04. do you need anymore facts gary?

    192. Jim Hendry says:

      Robert Peffer, I am neither loony nor establishment. Stick to the point I made and do not resort to pathetic insults. Robert Moffat made the perfectly valid point that many newly independent countries have been successful in negotiating trade with different global partners. My view remains the same as always, there is no need for Scotland to tie itself politically to the corrupt, incompetent and unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. Let us trade with them without joining the EU mafia gravy train or the Euro. You may like the EU and the way they control their member states at great cost without accountability. I certainly do not as it would result in a sham independent Scotland.

    193. Lesley-Anne says:

      I posted this late last night but think I’ll re-post here. Here is my *ahem* vision of what might happen on the 19th of September this year regarding Westminster and their *cough* currency negotiations. 😉

      As far as the C.U. thingy goes, I’m now at the point where I hope they keep it up and then on the 19th of September when we start negotiations they sheepishly ask about a currency union at which Alex turns round to them and says:

      “well it’s like this guys. Ever since the referendum started I was saying we’d have a currency union and YOU guys kept saying NAW! well guess what guys? I’M the one who is saying NAW now! You had your chance to get help with YOUR debt but you blew it guys. You blew it BIG time.” 😛

    194. fred blogger says:

      lesley-anne
      exactly, yous had yer chance, and no one can accuse or blame scotland nor the people of scotland.

    195. Lesley-Anne says:

      That was what I was thinking fred when I wrote it. As I say I’d love for Alex Salmond to react like to Westminster after 19th September in a similar fashion. However, being the courteous and generous man we all know him to be he’ll keep the currency union option on the table until 24th March 2016 at which point it will then be no c.u. and bye bye any debt problems. 😉 😛

    196. Meindevon says:

      I have just tried to send the brilliant link from Flooplepoop at 8.35 to bro in law on Facebook. For some reason it would not send as it was ‘offensive or abusive’!

    197. fred blogger says:

      lesley-anne
      i think you’re right. i bet he will keep CU on the table, until mar16. he really does want what is best for everyone, he means it. CU is a golden goodbye from scotland. he has certainly lept in my estimation, since the full on indy campaign has gotten under way.

    198. Lesley-Anne says:

      This is why we have the almost non stop attacks on him by Better Together rent a mob fred. Alex Salmond always has been, currently is and always will be, in my view, the greatest politician this great country of ours, Scotland, has ever had. This is why he is constantly under attack by the has beens of Labour etc. They could NEVER reach the political heights that he has reached. Jealousy comes in many forms and we are witnessing that again now during the referendum campaign.

      Those of us in Scotland who have actually opened our eyes to the prospects of independence can see why he is sticking with the currency union option. He has said, many times that it is not the best option for Scotland but it is the best option for rUK and these islands. He is very aware of what affect no c.u. will have on these islands and this is why he is doing everything he can to minimise the risk. However, there is one thing we have to remember above everything else. A.S. is the ONLY trained individual in politics debating c.u. who actually has any economics and banking experience. Every one else, ie.e. everyone on BT side of the fence, has a grand total of ZERO banking and economics experience, other than that which they gained whilst doing on the job training. (in government 😉 )

    199. geeo says:

      http://m.stv.tv/news/285798-johann-lamont-says-independence-would-bring-wave-of-austerity/

      Could someone please read this and tell me i have not imagined it please !!!

    200. Colin Rippey says:

      Oh how I long for the 19th September so we can “get on with our real lives” and leave all this drivel behind. NOBODY I know wants independence, NOBODY I work alongside wants independence. Where do I work? The finance industry in Edinburgh, and that industry would be DECIMATED by independence, but that’s okay ’cause there would be less food banks, hooray!

      Anyway, regardless of what all you people think, it’s not going to happen. Opinion polls are all rubbish, but do you know what isn’t, the bookies’ odds. Current odds on voting No are 1/7, voting Yes (at best) is 9/2. Never met a poor bookie.

    201. Graeme McAllan says:

      Darling boastfully points out the “He didn’t vote for Salmond, but he got him”

      The whole of Scotland didn’t vote Tory, but they rule Westminster, which has a knock-on effect on our budget.

      This is why we want Independence from the self-obsessed “me, me, me” trough pigs in London 🙁

    202. Lesley-Anne says:

      To be honest geeo I think she has been hitting the bottle a wee bit too hard last week. I think the massive slap down she received at Thursday’s FMQ’s might be partly to blame. 😛

      She will add: “Salmond may rave against austerity but he knows a new, additional wave of austerity would come after independence. The independent experts tell us we face spending cuts or tax rises to maintain what we have now.

      I take it when she says this then that at the moment no one is experiencing austerity cuts. Everything that has happened to the services and people of Scotland has just been one gawd almighty fiction of our imagination then, is that right Johann ya Numpty! 😀

      I can only draw one conclusion from this pile of garbage from her and that is she is desperate to see a NO vote so that when she is First Minister in 2016 (in her own little dream world 😉 ) she can impose her “something for Nothing” cuts!

    203. fred blogger says:

      well, since we have only yet seen 40% of the PLANNED cuts from WM and there are £25bn+ to come after the 2015ge who ever is elected, our best bet is to leave asap.
      being poor in the land of the rich is painful, being poor in the land of the sharing is joyful.

    204. Mark love says:

      Why not ask Darling where there is more risk for the Scottish people.
      Spending around 6-8 billion pounds going it alone (yes it’s quite a bit of money) or staying in a union who’s debt has increased from £800 billion in 2010 to around £1.4 trillion now.
      So we can choose between £8 billion on our own or sharing roughly £150 billion increase in our debt every year.
      Sorry but it’s a no brainer for me.
      Let’s get out of this bust union and make our own way, wherever it may take us.
      It sure as hell can’t be any worse

    205. David Stevenson says:

      Lamont, Kelly and the rest of the numpties are basing this austerity line on the IFS report that they cite in a recent 4-page propaganda sheet. The conclusion was arrived at using OBR figures on oil which have been convincingly rubbished by Donald McKay. They like a broken record and don’t give a monkeys about lying through their teeth, distorting and exaggerating everything to fit their of deceiving the people of Scotland. As Gordon Brown showed, no lie is too extreme.

    206. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “The finance industry in Edinburgh, and that industry would be DECIMATED by independence, but that’s okay ’cause there would be less food banks, hooray!”

      Wow. The little-seen “I’d rather support the financial services industry than starving human beings” lobby. Nice to hear from you.

      “Opinion polls are all rubbish, but do you know what isn’t, the bookies’ odds. Current odds on voting No are 1/7, voting Yes (at best) is 9/2. Never met a poor bookie.”

      You’ve never met a poor bookie because bookies win either way, you dolt. They set the odds based on how much money they’ve taken, not how likely they think something is. If they’d taken five times as much in Yes bets, Yes would be favourite no matter what the opinion polls said.

      You think bookies are GAMBLERS or something? They’re the polar opposite. They make their profit by manipulating odds, NOT by making guesses about the outcome of things.

    207. Morag says:

      And somebody (possibly several somebodies) is putting silly amounts of money on No.

      It’s a binary choice. Voters are volatile and unpredictable. Yes are by no means out of contention, any way you slice it. And yet people are putting six-figure sums on No?

      The number of individual bets on Yes is very much higher than on No, but the sheer amount of lolly wagered on No by these extremely rich people has skewed the odds. Who can possibly afford to put hundreds of thousands of pounds on an uncertain outcome like this? Go figure.

    208. Lesley-Anne says:

      I think the masses of money being put on a NO win Morag is being done by a few mega rich individuals to skewer the odds so as to make those upity numpty Scots Scots think that NO is the favourite to win. They are trying to skewer the result by using betting shops as their choice of weapon. Unfortunately for them they have no concept or even the simplest of understanding of how the YES grass roots campaign works.

      We WILL win. The very fact of all the latest rounds of personal attacks on Alex Salmond etc and these high flyers putting massive bets on NO just confirms, in my view, the level of utter terror that is flowing right through the NO supporters. 😛

    209. Lawrence says:

      I don’t understand this fascination with the Pound other than continuity when the Euro is just there waiting for Scotlands future, 18 countries, over 300 million new customers , no exchange rates, new markets, new revenue streams, new investment, new direction, with a robust world currency, instead of clinging on the this dead archaic Pound that is only effectively used in the UK, let it go, it’s as dead as the union jack is a dead brand.

    210. Rock says:

      Croompenstein,

      “They are indeed a formidable foe but let’s pray they have had their day.”

      We will only be able to say that after a Yes vote has been declared on 19th September.

      Alex Salmond should not be underestimated and I have full faith in him. But he plays fair unlike the extremely dirty and ugly tricks of the British establishment.

    211. geeo says:

      Decided to have a bit fun with the hootsmon regular funksters…
      Im sure you can figure out the topic …(lol)

      Me,
      “If it is not our pound then it follows it cannot be our debt.

      Scotland shall be using the pound
      There, the question has been answered.
      Mr Salmond has been telling you for months, but that does not suit the anti Scottish agenda.

      Look at the nonsense spoken from Carmichael in this article, see if you can spot the obvious …
      ……………………
      “Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael said: “It(debate) has had an impact on their campaign. They are losing their message discipline for the first time. People are being move vocal. They are talking about other options.
      “For the first time, they look like people who have not got all the answers.
      ……………………
      Me,
      1. Carmichael says “they (SNP) have lost their message discipline”

      So why demand a Plan B ?
      The message has NEVER faltered.

      2. Carmichael says,” they are talking about other options”

      What, like a plan B, the pound without a CU?

      3. Carmichael says, “for the 1st time, they look like people who have not got all the answers.”

      So Carmichael thinks they (SNP) HAVE looked like they had all the answers then ??

      Since we established at point 1. that the message has never changed then Carmichael, rather than being critical is actually being Supportive of a Yes vote.

      Either that or he is stupid beyond belief.
      Tough call !

    212. Colin Rippey says:

      “Wow. The little-seen “I’d rather support the financial services industry than starving human beings” lobby. Nice to hear from you.”

      Almost 200,000 people are employed in the Financial Services industry, straight-forward ordinary people, not bankers, traders, and hedge-fund managers – ordinary jobs like customer services, office admin, IT support who go to work on a daily basis in large and small offices all over our country.

      They spend their money locally during the day (in all those lovely little lunch shops etc.) and contribute a HUGE amount to the economy. Without them (and their jobs will GO if the vote was Yes) our entire economy would be wrecked beyond measure.

      But that’s not really the point is it, as you’ve stated you don’t consider these people to be important. And as for “starving human beings”, maybe a wee trip to somewhere like South Sudan would let you see a starving human being.

      I look forward to revisiting this site after the result to listen to you rant about what went wrong, don’t worry I’ve got your excuse ready for you: http://thinkexist.com/quotation/the_best_argument_against_democracy_is_a_five/12438.html

      Or what was the Labour answer after their humiliation failing to oust the Tories in 1992: “such is democracy”.

      There you go, two answers for you.

    213. geeo says:

      So according to you colin, an independent Scotland will not have a financial services division ??

      Aye, ok then, 200 000 workers will locate down south…away and slobber.

    214. Lesley-Anne says:

      Hmm an attack on the bonkers bankers is turned into an attack on the ordinary workers in the financial industry. How does that work?

      No one EVER has attacked the ordinary banking workers on this site. We are all very capable of identifying the REAL workers doing an honest days work for honest day pay from the corrupt bonkers bankers who get the obscene bonuses. We all recognise the level of business the financial workers bring to local businesses but you can not for one second take an absolutely clear attack on the bonkers bankers as an attack on the front line banking and financial services staff it isn’t.

      Everyone on this site will stand hand in hand with anyone whose job is put on the line NOT through their fault but the ignorance, incompetence and egotistical attitudes towards money, 99% of the time NOT their own. Until such times as this country goes down the road of Iceland, actually imprisoning bonkers bankers for their fraudulent activities during the *ahem* crash of 2008 then we will ALWAYS attack the financial service authority and the relevant industry.

      No one should be in any doubt we will NEVER accept the actions, sorry the inactions, of Westminster with concerns to the actions of the bonkers bankers. Until this is resolved we will have NO trust in these criminals! Only with an independent Scotland can we begin to address this issue. Only by having a government with FULL responsibility over ALL financial aspects can we begin to look at banks, bankers, financial services etc under a microscope!

    215. fred blogger says:

      thatcher mentioned, as well as you can’t buck the markets, the trickle down effect, but failed to mention the cascade up effect.
      what i’ve noticed, that as the financial markets have grown in size and power, global and local poverty has also increased, coincidence?
      i wonder if the occupy movement could shed some light on this.

    216. Gerry says:

      Just as I thought all the YES voters seem to think only their opinions count. Still no real facts & figures. Well it’s a big NO from me. But won’t fall out over different opinions. What ever happens well we’ll have to love with that. Was going to say good luck but won’t, lol.

    217. geeo says:

      Could someone let Lesley – Anne know that some rational calm sensible person has hacked her wings account please….(ducks behind couch)…

    218. Lesley-Anne says:

      someone round here is heading for a beating round here if they don’t behave … geeo I’m looking at you. 😛

    219. geeo says:

      Steady there Lesley – Anne…

      Breaking news alert!

      “Unlucky Scottish Yes voter beaten up by crazy woman despite already having served a double life
      sentence already sentence…

    220. geeo says:

      See what fear does ??????

      I might quit insomniacs for Yes !

    221. macart763m says:

      @Colin Rippey

      If there’s a no vote the gloating will be short lived IMO. I’d also hazard a guess that finding someone who would admit to doing so after even a short period would be a rare find indeed.

      Nobody blames the workers in the financial services sector for anything, other than perhaps annoying phone calls at inopportune times of the day. We’re kinda sussed enough to know the difference between an investment banker and service personnel.

    222. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Just as I thought all the YES voters seem to think only their opinions count. Still no real facts & figures.”

      It’s a comment piece. If you want facts and figures, go here:

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/reference/

      But you don’t, do you? You’ve made up your mind and nothing will change it.

    223. Susanne says:

      Thank you first of all for taking the time and effort to write this article. I too have been trying to absorb all that I can regarding the independence debate. Most of the information is written with either a yes/no slant. This article asks so many direct questions that everyone should be seeking the answer to. I applaud you for the content and thought provoking way in which this is written. If I did not know which way I was going to vote up until this evening I sure do now.

    224. D'jeelius Chinokiooo says:

      We are all very capable of identifying the REAL workers doing an honest days work for honest day pay from the corrupt bonkers bankers who get the obscene bonuses——-

      I doubt very much that you could differentiate between the different types of people in a bank and what they do. You probably don’t even know what job it is that these ‘bankers’ do.

    225. Tony says:

      Colin Rippey I’ll buy you a pint on the 19th. Like you most of the people (from all age groups) that I know do not want to be separated from the UK, come to that a lot of people in the UK do not want to lose Scotland.

    226. Dave McG says:

      Sadly, had a seat in the lords or a knighthood and lucrative speaking circuit not beckon darling might just switch if he read the article and much of the debate for. But his record in parliament for fiddling expenses says much about the character and his focus of attention, financial reward and aggrandizement, I so wish it were not so.

    227. Tony says:

      Lawrence ……….. I am somewhat confused! I was under the impression there was no “Plan B” you however seem to have all the answers. I think you referred to a robust euro that Scotland can tap into and a pound that has had its day. Different outburst from Mr Salmond who spent most of his time promoting the pound as Scotland’s future.

      I have come to the conclusion that you talk a load of dribble.

    228. Ade says:

      Robert – Please can you explain something:
      How does an independent Scotland suddenly lift the 1 million people you mentioned out of poverty.

      I think its YOU who has failed to make a posititve case for what independence will bring to Scotland. Most of your motives I suspect are simply motivated by anti-englishness.

    229. robert moffat says:

      Hi Ade. I don’t normally respond to trolling but as the author I’ve made an exception. The article is not designed to put a positive case forward for independence – there are many hundreds of articles out there that have already done exactly that. It’s a challenge to come up with a positive case for the union.

      Your response is straight out of the Better Together playbook. Deflect when challenged; attack the man in personal terms and complain about unanswered questions while posing an unanswerable question. No-one has ever claimed that problems will be solved “suddenly” after independence. In relation to the mitigation of poverty, decades of Labour rule in Scotland has brought us what exactly?

      If we look at it from a probabilistic perspective what’s more likely to happen? We vote to remain a region of the UK and Westminster will permit us full access to the wealth we generate along with the powers required to use that wealth for the good of Scotland? Is that what you’re seriously suggesting? Or take full control and responsibility for our own future decisions?

      Writing this article has been an interesting experience. 150,000 people have read it and not one person has come back to me with a positive case for the union. I have, however, had multiple responses along similar lines to yours from those voting No. I’ll enjoy sharing your response with my English friends some of whom are voting Yes and some voting No.

    230. Ade says:

      Hi Robert

      Thanks for your response. My comments were not posted as trolling and i’m sorry that you interpreted them that way.

      Furthermore, I don’t see where or how I have attacked anyone in personal terms. I merely said that in my opinion the onus should be on Scots to make the case that independence isn’t just possible (which obviously it is) but is actually desirable.

      So you wanted a reason to stay together – Try this then:

      Scotland attracts investment because it is part of the UK, not because its Scotland. Being, and choosing to remain, a constituent part of the UK, creates the conditions necessary for favourable investment and stability which enables “Scotland’s” economy to prosper.

      “No-one has ever claimed that problems will be solved “suddenly” after independence.”

      Honestly, hand on heart, would you say that a solution for reducing the 1 million people in poverty would be closer or further away given a Yes vote? In the aftermath of a Yes, how long will it be to get a coherent set of policies for tackling social issues like that together? Would that really be top of a Scottish Presidents/PM’s/HoS agenda?

      “Your response is straight out of the Better Together playbook.”
      That must be a coincidence, as I haven’t read it.

      Anyway, I wish you an enjoyable evening on the 18th – whether the future will be filled with more of the same or a new stronger and more prosperous existence under Alex Salmonds flapping jowls remains to be seen.

      Best wishes.

    231. Sandy MacGregor says:

      By far, one of the very best articles I have read yet – well done Robert Moffat.

    232. Rob says:

      Westminster maybe the “Mother of all parliaments” but she just keeps giving birth to corrupt, greedy vermin……



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