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Between friends

Posted on August 06, 2014 by

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  1. 06 08 14 19:02

    Between friends | Scottish Independence News

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    Ridiculous UKOK Claim of the Day #63 | mjaei

  3. 18 08 14 23:18

    How much of it will become “Scotland’s oil”? | James Hammerton's Blog

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    Oilmageddon | FreeScotland

141 to “Between friends”

  1. Thepnr says:

    That’s just since 1980. the fact is we have economically raped for 307 years. No more.

  2. benarmine says:

    No no, they only want us to stay because they like us so much.

  3. Hey Thepnr. Let’s not be pissing about with the word ‘rape’, eh? It’s really not comparable and is a really brilliant way to offend a giant portion of the audience.

  4. Andy says:

    And what was access to the British Empire worth to Glasgow alone in today’s prices?

  5. handclapping says:

    Its not even serious money; a billion here and a billion there and it’ll soon be gone.

    Still they could make use of it, a railway Glasgow – Inverness in 2 hours, Aberdeen – Edinburgh in one and a half would make a difference; cost about £4bn.

    What would we do the next year though?

  6. Thepnr says:

    @Stewart Bremner

    Hey What? You have a problem with the truth? Don’t stick your nose in where it’s not welcome, I’ll state my opinion whether you like it or not.

    Give me your opinion rather than comment on mine.

  7. Harry McAye says:

    I wrote that stat down in my Bumper Book of Referendum Facts several months ago and I must admit I had my doubts as to its veracity but there it is again from another source. Aye, no big deal really.

  8. I was looking for a fight. I’m just asking you to take care of the language you are using.

  9. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Hey What? You have a problem with the truth? Don’t stick your nose in where it’s not welcome, I’ll state my opinion whether you like it or not.”

    Here’s my opinion: he’s right. No more.

  10. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “And what was access to the British Empire worth to Glasgow alone in today’s prices?”

    Since 1980? I’m guessing not much. The referendum isn’t a vote to go back in time. It’s a vote about what’s best for the future.

  11. Thepnr says:

    @Stewart Bremner

    I’m not here to educate the ignorant but for you I will make an exception. Do you know ALL the meanings of “rape”. here’s one from the Oxford English dictionary:

    The wanton destruction or spoiling of a place

  12. galamcennalath says:

    And yet, there are those who would still trot out the subsidy FROM London TO Scotland nonsense.

    Is everyone in Scotland fully aware of this? From the number of people who still say, “we couldnay pay the bills”, obviously not everyone is aware.

    This is one of the key facts we need to shout out.

  13. Also no biggie on the savings from not contributing to the costs of Trident:

    A report by Malcolm Chalmers for the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) says that the lifetime costs of the Trident replacement would be between £70 billion and £80 billion. However, the total would be even higher. Chalmers assumes a 25 year life for the new system. However, the MOD have said that one advantage of incorporating the new PWR3 reactor design will be an increase in service life. A presentation by Babcocks says that the planned retirement date for the Successor submarine in 2067. This means that the new submarine would be in service for around 30 years. The extra 5 years in-service would increase the total cost to £78 – 96 billion. (Scottish CND)

  14. Paula Rose says:

    Thepnr dear, I think Stewart is confused with the pillage.

  15. Andy says:

    Stewart – 1707 or 1980, both equally relevant points in time to calculate a figure from. And both would produce figures that have little to tell us about the future.

  16. Andy says:

    ^^^^Apologies – “Stuart”, my bad.

  17. Murray McCallum says:

    Thepnr was talking “economically”.

    From my experience of leaving my home town in the 1980s with its 36% unemployment I think he is right.

  18. Les Wilson says:

    That would erradiate foodbanks and a whole lot more, pay for our better broadband nationwide, our road improvements, more hospitals and schools, a whole skew of things that could improve our economy, pensions and more……

    As we do not have it,we could call it our Union bonus to Westminster! But hey, they know that already, shame we did not.

  19. Juteman says:

    I can’t wait to hear this discussed on BBC GMS the morn.
    Or maybe the future of the lesser spotted tit might prove a bigger draw?

  20. Indy_Scot says:

    Yep, that’s a clear points win.

  21. heedtracker says:

    And yet last night former ukok chancellor Darling told us we Scots each get thousands more than we put in the pot. Obviously didnt get the memo on how the yewkay really finances itself.

    Here’s Darling’s UKOK colleague and future teamGB PM Bojo on his ukok monetary policy, Labour Scotland take note please.

    ‘A pound spent in Croydon is far more of value to the country than a pound spent in Strathclyde’

  22. handclapping says:

    Blast, Stu’s already beaten me to it but anyway …

    What is it with Unionists and History? All they can offer is “Pooling and Sharing”, which is another phrase for fraudulent theft of our labour and assets, or “History” like Opium Wars, slave trading and destabilising other counties for the profit of the ruling classes. Is it just coincidence that HistoryWoman is a leading BT tweeter?

    Where is the future if we vote No? Notice not even What is the Future, I’m not asking for details just some idea of where Britain is headed and what part Scotland will be playing. So again, where is the future if we vote No?

  23. CameronB Brodie says:

    Andy said: 6 August, 2014 at 6:49 pm

    And what was access to the British Empire worth to Glasgow alone in today’s prices?

    And how much was access to the British Empire worth to Glasgow’s factory and mill barons alone in today’s princes?

    There, fixed that for you. 😉

  24. YESGUY says:

    Bang on the money Les Wilson

    No more hungry bairns. Schools dinners for all kids regardless of income. We have a duty of care to protect the kids (our future depends on them)

    Broad band for all with a free “Wings ” package and for a couple of quid more we’ll chuck in Bella and the Wee Ginger Dug.

    Anything is better than spending on useless WMD’s .

    And the money saved from the HoL could go towards training our young workers for the OIL gushing from under oor feet.

  25. Les Wilson says:

    Without Scots running it the Empire would not been anything like it was, then there is the dying for it, yup, we did plenty of that too.

  26. SquareHaggis says:

    “I was looking for a fight”

    Careful:- wi that langwidge Eugene.

    First rule of fight club etcetera etcetera 🙂

  27. Paula Rose says:

    @ YESGUY – better if we encourage and educate our young to engineer our renewable future, the tide will always be there.

  28. YESGUY says:

    O/T but a point of note

    Where are all the NO’rs , we’re told they are in the majority. I asked around 3pm today for 2 reasons why the union is beneficial for us . And not one , 1, UNO , can give me an answer..


    there is no benefit ???

    Aye thats right..

  29. heedtracker says:

    Scotland has really lost far more than the headline up there. Look at the near trillion dollar deposits in the Norwegian North Sea Oil fund, started mid 90’s.

    Darling said last night its never going to happen for Scotland, Salmond says it is.

    There’s less than 5 million Norwegians but they never had a Labour government.

  30. Croompenstein says:

    That is a F*cking whole load of sheep and highland spring water! 🙂

  31. Les Wilson says:

    Laura Vivanco says:

    Ref Trident, and Babocks, I think it was last year Westminster allowed them to lower their insurances to £100k per incident. Just think of what that would cover in a nuclear accident. Not much I think. A disgrace.

  32. Bob Sinclair says:

    I don’t have an issue with Thepnr using that word bearing in mind the OED’s Second definition of it:

    The wanton destruction or spoiling of a place

    late Middle English (originally denoting violent seizure of property)

    Seems to be most appropriate.

  33. Edward says:

    Well you can add into that the figures that Stuart did an article on regarding the figures that were from Scottish records that showed from 1900 to 1921 continual surplus of tax revenue flowing to London (sorry Ive forgotten which article) 🙁

  34. Croompenstein says:

    And let’s not forget wee union Jack McConnell ‘giving back’ £1.5bn, at least he made good out of it eh Lord what did we get sweet FA

  35. Juteman says:

    Watching Ch4 news from Gaza. A Palestinian doctor was interviewed about the need to get folk out for surgical help, but the Israelis won’t open the borders. He mentioned that Scottish hospitals were offering to help. I now wait on Cameron using his British clout to get this done.

  36. Lesley-Anne says:

    Hmm … I wonder if wee Flipper knows about this little known FACT!

    Now I’m not a mathemawhatsit but if you add this £6 Billion to the annual £Billions savings from NOT having Trident plus ALL of current tax revenues that go go whizzing past us at 100,000 feet straight to London then I think we might, just might mind you, be in a wee bit of a financial surplus here. Now if only there were someone out there who can do mathemawhatsit to prove this! 😛

    handclapping says:

    Its not even serious money; a billion here and a billion there and it’ll soon be gone.

    Still they could make use of it, a railway Glasgow – Inverness in 2 hours, Aberdeen – Edinburgh in one and a half would make a difference; cost about £4bn.

    What would we do the next year though?

    I’m assuming you’re thinking of conventional railways here handlapping. Can be the wee rascal that I usually am and make an outside the box suggestion here?

    How about using this sort of money to build a Maglev system. The Shanghai Maglev system can run at 268 m.p.h that would make Glasgow to Inverness around 30 minutes, Aberdeen to Edinburgh around 20 minutes and Edinburgh to Glasgow around 10 minutes if I’ve worked it out right. 😛

  37. James123 says:

    Sickening, and oh yeah and if we’d been independent we also wouldn’t have been paying our share of Trident or the UK’s huge national debt. But you know, people aren’t sure if we can manage by ourselves.

  38. James123 says:

    Well you can add into that the figures that Stuart did an article on regarding the figures that were from Scottish records that showed from 1900 to 1921 continual surplus of tax revenue flowing to London (sorry Ive forgotten which article)

  39. Lesley-Anne says:

    It is not just Trident that we would NOT be paying for either James:

    O2 Arena a.k.a. the dump
    London Olympics
    London Underground new stations
    London Underground upgrade
    London sewer upgrade
    London Super sewer
    London Cross rail
    London Heathrow Third runway (or equivalent)
    Westminster upgrade
    New Thames crossing (cycle friendly bridge)
    New high speed N.E. rail network

    These are just a few of my favourite things, oops sorry got distracted there. These are just a few projects deemed NOT worthy to be covered by the Barnett formula because we all *ahem* benefit or WILL benefit from. Go figure! 😛

  40. Bugger (the Panda) says:


    Don’t mention blaggard, blackmail or blackout either!


  41. benarmine says:

    Would I be right in thinking this figure still doesn’t include the Scottish exports counted as English due to port of exit?

  42. CameronB Brodie says:

    Imagine what Scotland’s economy and social infrastructure would be like now, if we had been able to direct our wealth at our needs. Instead, it was the needs of others that was felt, by Westminster, to be the national priority.

    The British state is a milking machine that Scotland does not benefit from.

  43. TD says:

    I’ve been plugging this for a while, but here goes again. Simple messages, clearly communicated.

    OF COURSE we will be better off if we stop sending money to rUK. The currency is an important topic, but by comparison to stopping the outflow of funds it is way down the scale.

    OF COURSE our NHS will be ruined if we vote No. Do people really think Westminster will allow us to have a properly funded NHS while theirs is dismantled?

    OF COURSE Trident will stay if we vote No. Why would they move it?

    OF COURSE our membership of the EU is at significant risk if we vote No. The next UK government is most likely going to be a Tory/UKIP coalition.

    Voting Yes really is a no-brainer.

  44. Edward says:

    Thanks James123 🙂

  45. Liquid Lenny says:


    Your being too ambitious , I asked via FB all my Bitter friends in May for one reason and I aint got a reply, I have repeated the question a few times since then, but still no positive case for the Union.

  46. @Les Wilson

    Found it!

    Private firms working at Clyde nuclear bases are being given a multi-million pound get-out by Westminster so they will not have to pay compensation or clean-up costs after “potentially catastrophic” accidents.

    The Ministry of Defence plans to sign deals with contractors at Faslane and Coulport that limit their financial liability in case of injuries, deaths, explosions, fires and radiation leaks to no more than £100,000. The vast majority of costs, which could run into many millions of pounds, will be met by taxpayers. (The Herald, 6 April 2014)

    So the “best of both worlds” really means paying more than our fair share for things we don’t want and didn’t vote for.

  47. Short changed says:

    Why did Eck not push these numbers last night if he is keeping his powder dry he may wait too long. The postal voters will get going soon and certain unionist parties have form with postal votes

  48. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Does anyone remember the post that Rev Stu published which included the 1921 tax take and expenditure in Scotland?

    It was about £100 millions tax take and an expenditure in Scotland of about £30 millions,

    The rest, about £70 millions disappeared into a black hole (oops) named Imperial Expenses. Remember this was in the year of the George Sq. demonstrations and repression by armed soldiers with tanks and the Dublin uprising.

    1921 was the last publication of that breakdown for a considerable years.

    I am wont to believe Scotland has contributed every year during the 20th Century.

    How do you think that London was built and the underground network.

    Westminster has been parasitising itself on Scotland, and the other colonies, for a very long time.

    It is how they work.

  49. handclapping says:

    Maths not your strong point then? Add 50% to your figures. 😉

    I doubt maglev would be economic for the long distances, think GC+250kph, but certainly on the Edinburgh – Glasgow it would be a contender.

  50. James123 says:

    If this sort of info was on the front page of the Record or the Sun or headline news on the BBC this referendum would be a breeze, but it isn’t, it’s all swept under the carpet, nothing to see here.

  51. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Threpr, I use violate for that sort of plunder, although your use was perfectly correct.

    Rape, is nowadays called Colza as the rape word can be taken as not PC.

  52. Thepnr says:

    @Bugger (the Panda)

    OK I’ve been tellt (your spelling) I will certainly think again about my use of language and when to post. Simply because the language you might use can be misunderstood.


  53. Les Wilson says:

    Laura Vivanco says:

    Well done Laura, I could not remember where I saw it, I know I was fizzing about. Yes, we pay more if obliterated, even in death. You could not make it up,

  54. James123 says:

    If we become independent can we get a refund on the last 30 years of the Union, does anyone have a receipt?

  55. Paula Rose says:

    I thought rape was a yellow-flowered member of the brassica family, grown for its oil. Now can we all understand that any word in the english language will have multiple definitions?

    This is why crosswords of a complex nature can exist in english, and why certain scots words have multiple definitions in english as they express a unique viewpoint.

  56. *wasn’t. Feck sake fingers, get a grip.

  57. Bugger (the Panda) says:


    My tongue was firmly in my cheek


  58. Lesley-Anne says:

    I was working off the Shanghai speeds handclapping but I bow to your better judgement. I do admit though that the Glasgow – Edinburgh route has always been the route I thought should be Magleved first if there was to be any Magleving. 😉

  59. Tam Jardine says:

    Sadly so many folk have been brainwashed into believing Scotland is inferior that the truth is almost impossible for them to accept. The ridiculing and devaluing of our culture, our national heroes, history, all of the trappings of our nationhood has been going on for a long, long time.

    Were the figure 10x the amount quoted or 100x there are those who would still not accept it.

    When I heard the lost, angry voices in the audience last night, full of ignorance and hatred of the figurehead for the movement to improve Scotland and realise her potential for the benefit of all – it made me realise how long and hard this road to Independence has been.

    We’ve been fighting against the media, self interest, ignorance, a large, powerful and belligerent neighbour and our own self doubt drummed into us since school.

    It is an awesome responsibility on all of our shoulders but also something we can be proud of. There are thousands out there working tirelessly for the future of our country. My guilt is that I don’t do enough.

    Listening to that maniac last night and his twisted logic – if we all followed his fear agenda no-one would leave the nest, split up, go to Uni, change jobs, change careers, setup a business, get hitched or have kids. We’d all just be sitting in our parents house aged 45 chugging away in the dark, then counting up our pocket money.

    Alex Salmond has a vision for a more prosperous, equal Scotland, but the combined vision of all those in the Yes campaign is vast.

    All this distracting pish about the currency shows how weak the No campaign really is. They want everyone to think we’ll all be wandering about without a clue what banknotes are going to be dispensed from the hole in the wall… ignoring the fact that most people, myself included approach said hole in the wall with something approaching existential dread RIGHT NOW in the wonderful, equal land of milk and honey that is the UK in the 21st century.

    There are more of us than them.

    Lets push on and have a great run in x

  60. CameronB Brodie says:

    Paula Rose
    It used to kill me every year (rape pollen), until I had the treatment. Wooooooo ha ha. 😉

  61. Liquid Lenny says:

    Hope its not to early to go O/T but anybody visiting Arran on the run up to the referendum please note

    Ormidale Drop-in Cafe. We have booked the Ormidale Pavilion for the afternoons of four Saturdays in the campaign period: 16th August, 23rd August, 6th September and 13th September. It is intended that this will be a focal point for campaigning, a source of materials and information, and we may schedule informal information and discussion events.

  62. Paula Rose says:

    Cameron dear I try and make a serious point… xx

  63. Ken500 says:

    With interest

  64. Croompenstein says:

    @Tam – We’d all just be sitting in our parents house aged 45 chugging away in the dark, then counting up our pocket money

    LOL Tam, you just described the unionist trolls to a T 😀

  65. Ken500 says:

    Back Thepnr

    Rape and pillage. A technical history term.

  66. EphemeralDeception says:

    Last night when challenged on Scotlands contributions Darling denied the volume/ratio but did not deny the net contribution. However his pitiful response (that was not an argument) was that Scotland contributing more to the UK was like Saying Aberdeen contributes more to Scotland.

    That is so lame! It dies show that this ‘Proud Scot but’ considers Scotland as a Region and not a country.

    So a better question from Salmond is:
    Is Scotland a country or a region? And if a country, how many countries in the world do not govern themselves, plus if you really believe it is a country why do you insist only allowing it regional powers and no Devo Max?

    We know most Scots want devo Max. This eclipses anything else, so showing that BT don’t want even this will really weaken their position.

  67. wee_monsieur says:

    Would I be right in thinking this figure still doesn’t include the Scottish exports counted as English due to port of exit?

    And what about the Road Fund Licence (Road Tax) for all the wee red postie vans tootling about in Scotland with English registration plates?

  68. heedtracker says:

    And let’s not forget wee union Jack McConnell ‘giving back’ £1.5bn, at least he made good out of it eh Lord what did we get sweet FA

    or, Scotland buys Labour MP a peerage in the Lords for one thousand, five hundred million quid. What a bunch of mugs they take us for.

  69. EphemeralDeception says:

    Note, I should have stated: most Scots want at least Devo Max.

  70. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    I have been on the Shanghai Maglev, the Airport to Shanghai is about 8 minutes and is about 16 miles. So about 20 minutes to do Glasgow to Edinburgh, same start up and slow down time, so a wee saving there.

    The ticked cost about £4,

  71. Bugger (the Panda) says:


    We would also get all the Scottish Vat.

  72. YESGUY says:

    liquid lenny 7.50pm

    Ach i was thinking that Cos they think they won the debate we would have trolls howling their drivel everywhere on Wings. They seem a wee bit too quiet these days.

    Don’t think any No’ers really know what they are voting for and their confidence in their own folk is sadly lacking.

    Me I trust Scotland with Scots. I also have a warey aye on my age group 45-55 as they have in the past be utterly and stupidly blindly loyal to the Labour party who sold us off for ermine robes in the 90’s .

    The younger Scots on the other hand have no such blindness and a wee bit more belief in themselves. The internet is their domain and they can’t be controlled or lied to so easy. My faith is in them.

    Still it would have been nice for Someone to give the NO’s a voice. Without all the swearing and slagging.

    I can’t find any where i am and the one that do say they will vote NO are the numpties who will probably sleep right through it.

    If we lose the referendum, god help those buggers tho. I have a long memory and will NEVER let them forget they sold their country to the English Establishment.

  73. EphemeralDeception says:

    Please remember that the interim Calman report stated that full fiscal autonomy could not be proposed because it would guarantee to lead to independence. Therefore it was considered beyond their remit, as they had to make proposals that kept Scotland within the UK. I kid you not and can be checked.

    The reason is obviously that all the obfuscation of Scotlands Revenue and expenditure would suddeny be transparent, accountable, and audited for all to see = End of UNION.

  74. BigRik says:

    Perhaps a better word would have been rapine.. its what the clearances were.. anyhoo , enough about history ,the future is at stake ,what happens in the next few weeks will affect us and our descendents, let’s not let the naysayers win , my ancestors would never forgive us. Why are we the only country in the world where having abundant resources is seen as a problem??

  75. Ken500 says:

    Aye but they spent it in the south. North/South divide. Thatcher/Blair. Scotland’s economy was obliviated. ‘This must be kept top secret’ ‘We the English are generous to the Scots’ The Church General Assembly.

    When’s the Chilcott verdict coming out (after the REF). Blair has had his warning.

    Coulson charged. Tommy’s ‘verdict’, stitched up by Blair will be quashed, with compensation.

    Blair- Coulson guilty as charged? Murdoch too. The illegal tax evader warmongers, while people starve.

    Westminster culpable.

  76. macart763m says:

    Yeah, its all about the luuurve,(Cue Barry White) and not the cash, resources, place to park their toys of force projection etc, etc…

    That imaginary £6bn black hole the pretend socialist was banging on about last night? That little lot above the line answers that question with room to spare.

  77. heedtracker says:

    Flipper told us last night that Scots oil’s too too volatile and last year the tax take dropped £4.5 billion, so be afraid of Scots oil.

    Why did it drop £4.5 billion Flipper?

    Several unannounced Osborne tax raids set Scots oil industry back the cost of £4.5 billion but he maybe forgot to mention that bit too.

    Selective memory syndrome sufferer oor Flipper

  78. StevieMcB says:

    Pooling & Sharing = Plundering & Shafting

    BTUKOKNOTHANX.Lying, conniving sleekit beasties, learn

    from the past.we are on top & the worms are squirming.

    Scotland can more than hold its own, and they know it.

    its nearly whites of their eyes time & we win.

  79. Ken500 says:

    The rail line from the central belt to the North of Scotland hasn’t even electrified. Yet they are spending £Billions on HS2, with absolutely no viable business case. There are is not enough passenger base. It will be a public subsidised White elephant to cut the journey to London by 10mins. Westminster and their associates will cream off £Millions/Billions of public money in consultancy fees and political donations etc.

  80. west_lothian_questioner says:

    Ww’d surely also get to keep all the fines levied in Scotland’s courts which are currently donated to Westmonster…

  81. Paula Rose says:

    @ YESGUY – between friends, I know you’re not a day over 35, but I won’t tell anyone.

  82. Lesley-Anne says:

    I think a Glasgow – Edinburgh Maglev could boost the Scots economy massively BtP. There are not that many in service world wide and to have one in a 21st Century Scotland would do us no harm at all I reckon.

    There is the added advantage, in my view, that where it runs at ground level the track system is perfectly safe so all those plonkers who think it is fun to “dice with death” will have no fun cause the only section that actually has a live circuit is the section that the train is actually running on the rest is ‘dead.’

    Just think BtP running on a Maglev Glasgow – Edinburgh and never ever hearing these words again “The train is delayed because of leaves on the line.” 😛

  83. Holebender says:

    BTP that Scottish would come in handy for our whisky. 😉

  84. Murray McCallum says:

    There can surely be no doubt that the poor scale and quality of public transport between Scotland’s cities is a disgrace.

    The figures quoted in this article show what could have been but more importantly what can still be.

  85. Thepnr says:

    @Murray McCallum

    Those simple words “what could have been but more importantly what can still be” are the reason I will vote Yes and try to encourage others to do the same.

  86. Holebender says:

    VAT! I missed the blooming punchline. Sorry.

  87. Ken500 says:

    Shanghai is well populated – justified

    The NE of Scotland has been waiting for a By Pass road for 30years. The Labour/LibDem Unionists voted against it for thirty years. Traffic chaos. Accidents etc. People have been killed in the Oil industry because of lack of UK Health & Safety rules.

  88. Andy says:

    From the link that Stuart provided in his post –

    In all but one of the last 22 years, Scotland spent more than it generated through taxes (if you count Scotland’s geographical share of North Sea oil and gas).

    That’s because the vast majority of the excess tax receipts in the headline were generated from 1980 to 1992. You are kidding yourselves if you think that billions of spare cash is going down south these days. Are there different ways of spending it? – of course.

  89. YESGUY says:

    Paula Rose

    Flattery ALWAYS works. x

    Have to say when i turned 51 this year i got the heeby jeebys . Over half a century …ouch

    When i was young during the 70.s i thought we would be flying cars and there would be hotels on the moon

    But no….. Foodbanks and sanctions , fuel poverty and our young unemployed. It’s like i am 16 again.

    It’s a bad dream that i’ll have to endure till the 18th .

    I can do that nae problem.

  90. Ian Mor says:

    Bah! Has the word ‘subtract’ been purged from modern day vocabulary? Just thought I’d plus my tuppenceworth.

  91. Grouse Beater says:

    The Nos seem a wee bit too quiet these days.

    They do not sense victory. They sense a tie or worse.

    While it can be argued Salmond was not at his very best in the dabate, by no means did he lose it to Darling.

    Darling did no more than most expected. He wasn’t a dummy but he didn’t shine. He trotted out the same old stuff.

    I watched the ‘debate’ with a group of twenty adults; many neutral, some uncertain about independence, but all of us feeling the moment is auspicious for permanent change of some kind. Not one, I repeat, not one person felt Darling tilted the balance irreversibly to No.

    He has zero charisma. Personality gone awol.

    Balance in TV debates is useless, a delusion.

    Audience members are already set in their ways. STV might as well have bussed in a group from Iceland if they wanted some degree of objectivity in opinion.

    As for Darling, he carries leaden baggage, his investment is all for London.

    He has no commitment to Scotland’s permanent progress. Trust the viewers – they perceive what we can see.

  92. Lesley-Anne says:

    Well that’s my partner just in from a canvassing in Annan tonight. Let’s just say that when you come up against thick individuals in Annan then you really REALLY come up against thick INDIVIDUALS. Not only are these people thick but seriously ignorant as well.

    One seriously sad individual was voting NO because … drum roll … he didn’t know what currency we’d be using. DOH! I’ve never heard that one before! Despite being told we’d be using the pound he was adamant we wouldn’t and wanted to know what currency we’d be using, aye can see where this idiot get’s his information from then. Oh and what would happen about the DVLA? We wouldn’t be able to pay our road tax and he didn’t want to be breaking the law when out driving his car!

    I really do despair at the absolutely total lack of any intelligence that is shown by some of my so called countrymen.

    When asked to think about the future of her children one person replied “You leave my kids out of this!” I jest you not! 😛

    One of our canvassers tonight is English yet she received no end of abuse because she was English. Why are you doing this she was asked and then told she was just living in dream world.

    Despite all of this you can bet your bottom dollar if the worst case scenario does unfortunately happen these MUPPETS will be the first up in arms about the next round of cuts to their benefits etc!

  93. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Bugger, think the article you were referring to is ” before the deluge” It listed the receipts from about 1901 to 1921. Showing the amounts raised, spent and those diverted to Imperial services or some such

  94. Ken500 says:

    Norway started their Oil fund in 1995. Now worth £500Billion+ Every Norwegian is a Kroner millionaire. Along with the interest income generated.

    Scotland never spent more than it generated 1980 – 1992 because of Thatcher. Took all the Oil revenues, cut Scotland budget to the bone and wrote on papers released last year. ‘This must be kept top secret’. Lang/Forsyth were the henchmen. Cancel a pipe line wasting the equivalent of £Billions of Gas. The Gas was burnt off. One of her Minister resigned.

    Deregulated the banking sector. Demutualised the Building Societies owned by their members and sold off utilities to foreign nationalised utility companies. Established tax havens. £Billions of tax is evaded through the City of London. The Oil sector is taxed at 60-80%. In the banking crisis the BOE was not the bank of last resort. Leverage had been dangerously had been lowered it didn’t have the funds Westminster had to borrow it somewhere else. China/Arabs?. Secrecy and lies.

  95. Tam Jardine says:

    Murray McCallum

    Spot on. When I need to travel Edinburgh Dumfries I have 2 options. One is take one of the infrequent trains down to Lockerbie then get a bus or a lift into Dumfries. The bus times are completely out of synch with the train times so a well timed connection is pure luck. About 50 mins to an hour to Lockerbie then about 20-25 by car or whenever by bus.

    Buses from Edinburgh can take 3 hours 45 mins. We don’t need a maglev – an ordinary modern train would be enough.

    Public transport must have been great a century ago. Improving that link, and boosting the D&G economy would take a miniscule amount compared to HS2. We have not had a parliament interested in improving Scotland for long and they have a power of work to do in catching up on all the years of disinterest from Westminster.

    Indy can get the transport infrastructure projects moving. A no vote and the money keeps flowing south.

  96. Patrician says:


    Hope to see you all on Saturday at Seafest, Arbroath. Come early if you wants badges and stickers.

  97. Grouse Beater says:

    We can’t even boast the M8 is motorway all its distance, and decades later we are still waiting for the A8 to be upgraded. Meanwhile Boris has grandiose ideas for London.

    Vote Yes for sane decisions in Scotland’s favour.

  98. Lesley-Anne says:

    Sorry I’m O/T here but as we all know Westminster is NOT making any preparations for Scotland becoming independent … RIGHT? 😉

    Well I hate to be the purveyor of some bad news peeps cause it appears that Westminster IS making preparations for an independent Scotland after all. This is from the Daily Mail. 😛

  99. Ken500 says:

    Gkasgow to Edinburgh is being upgraded to reduce the journey time to 30 mins.

  100. Ian Clarke says:

    Please see below from the Adam Smith Institute (not my usual choice of reading):
    “Press Release: An independent Scotland should keep the pound without rUK’s permission
    Written by Kate Andrews | Wednesday, August 6th, 2014
    Commenting on Alex Salmond’s refusal to name a ‘Plan B’ currency for Scotland if the Chancellor were to continue to oppose a currency union, Research Director of the Adam Smith Institute, Sam Bowman, said:

    “An independent Scotland could flourish either by using the pound sterling without the permission of the rUK (or by setting up a “ScotPound” pegged to sterling through a currency board, which would achieve a similar end). This ‘sterlingization’ would emulate a number of Latin American countries that use the US Dollar without an official agreement with the US government. Because Scottish banks would not have access to a currency-printing lender of last resort, they would have to make their own provisions for illiquidity, and would necessarily act more prudently.

    “Scotland actually had this system of ‘free banking’ during the 18th and 19th centuries, during which time its economy boomed relative to England’s and its banks were remarkably secure. And Panama, which uses the US Dollar in this way, has the seventh most stable financial system in the world.

    “Everyone says Mr Salmond needs a Plan B if the rUK does not agree to a currency union with Scotland. But unilateral adoption should be Plan A, making Scotland’s economy more stable and secure. The UK’s obstinacy would be Scotland’s opportunity”.

  101. I hope this oil find is as big as they say if we want to build a Maglev line from Edinburgh to Glasgow.
    The Edinburgh Trams that travel at an average 14mph cost Scotland £100,000,000 per Fricken mile .
    This Maglev line would bankrupt Norway.

  102. Les Wilson says:

    Lesley-Anne says:

    There has been some talk of how the rUK flag would look, so this confirms that they really think this could happen.

    However, you can bet your bottom dollar that they have had dozens of lawyers pouring over everything so that the can take a hard stand in negotiations. I would put money on that.

  103. taysideterrier says:

    Apologies for coming late to the party here!

    That headline figure probably wont include the missing billions of non Scottish hq’d VAT, export duty, oil and gas exploration and licensing fee’s and what ever else is hidden out of our accounts!

  104. Hood says:

    Lesley-Anne says:

    Look at the date 😉

  105. Lesley-Anne says:

    I just did Hood. 😛

    There again when you consider what Better Together get up to anything is possible isn’t it? 😉

  106. Murray McCallum says:

    Tam Jardine

    I have many miserable memories of the Stranraer – Glasgow train 1982-86. Hopefully it has arrived by now!

    Just think of the Cross Rail, HS2, HS3, future London transport plan funds, etc being spent on connecting Scotland.

  107. Grouse Beater says:

    I regard much of what Darling had to say in the debate to be hate speech. He gets paid to speak it.

  108. Paula Rose says:

    @ Lesley-Anne, we could sell them the blue bits.

  109. Hood says:

    Lesley-Anne says:

    Nah, they are too busy trying to fit the new nuclear powered batteries in their calculator to worry about flags.

  110. Paula Rose says:

    Hood darling – are you going to sidle up over the weekend to our Wings event in Arbroath, so’s I can give you a kiss?

  111. Hood says:

    Afraid not Paula, too crowded for my tastes.

  112. Bugger (the Panda) says:


    That flag story is 4 months old, in fact it dates from April the 1st 2014

  113. Iain (orri) McCord says:

    Of course the real answer to what’s Plan B is that it’s the best of the options put forward should the rUK really set unreasonable conditions for a CU. From a BT point of view any Plan B will allow them to point at the most obvious flaw that Salmond will probably agree with because that’s why it isn’t Plan A in the first fucking place and probably replying “No shit Sherlock” isn’t going to be seen as polite.

  114. Thepnr says:

    Hey Hood

    How you doing buddie? Ignore Paula she’s just trolling and you were the target. LOL

  115. Lesley-Anne says:

    Yeah, I realised that AFTER I put it up BtP. Thanks for the heads up though. 😛

    Spot the dunderheid! DOH! 😀

  116. X_Sticks says:

    Lesley-Anne says:

    “Yeah, I realised that AFTER I put it up BtP”

    Not many people have put it up BtP Lesley-Anne and few of them have survived 😉

  117. Onwards says:

    Salmond should have been all over him with the oil question.
    He was an oil economist FFS.

    The reason for last years drop was a temporary pipeline shutdown, and tax write-offs from massive investment.

    No mention of the new oil discovered west of shetland, and the huge basement rock potential now it is proved up.

    That said, I agree with the comments above – Darling wasn’t convincing many by being relentlessly negative. He came across as shouty and rattled.

    But it might take a few days for any change to take effect.

    If this really does come down to female voters, then Darlings negative performance must have turned plenty off.

    Then there is the fact that people are now debating the referendum all over the place. The unionists hate that.

  118. Lesley-Anne says:

    X_Sticks says:

    Lesley-Anne says:

    “Yeah, I realised that AFTER I put it up BtP”

    Not many people have put it up BtP Lesley-Anne and few of them have survived 😉

    Aye well you know me X_Sticks I’ll put it up anyone. What happens after that well that’s anyone’s guess! 😛

  119. Paula Rose says:

    @ Lesley-Anne And I get accused of smut!!!

  120. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @All of Ye’s –

    I am appalled at the calamitous deterioration of this thread. Y’all should be ashamed of yourselves.

    While you are in the naughty corner, amuse yourselves by singing this tune until you are heartily sick of it:

    Black Lace (from Rita Sue & Bob Too) – ‘Having A Gang Bang’ –

  121. Paula Rose says:

    (between friends Ian honey, do not let on, but us Scots have a wicked sense of humour)

  122. Lesley-Anne says:

    @Paula Rose

    WHAT? 😉

    What I do? 🙂

    I have not the slightest idea what you are inferring here. 😛

  123. msean says:

    An awful lot of that oil burden pooled and shared there.

  124. Paula Rose says:

    Always the sense of trepidation that the man of god will descend – giggle.

  125. Thepnr says:

    Who gives a fuck?

    Not them.

  126. arranc says:

    Paula Rose what treatment did you get I am so allergic to rape seed

  127. Thepnr says:

    Go on Paula get ripped right in answering the question. Or don’t bother your arse.

  128. geeo says:

    Never mind Maglev trains, I want a new roads network, for the sake of argument, lets call it The Scalextric Superhighway Expressway”

  129. Ken500 says:

    Since 2011 Scotland has lost over £7Billion a year because of Westminster governance. £5Billion in Oil tax revenues, £1.3Billion a year cut to the Block Grant, over £1Billion a year in Defence/Welfare cuts. Over £21Billion.

  130. R-type Grunt says:

    Out canvassing in Dundee last night we were confronted by a guy who said Salmond & Sturgeon most reminded him of the SS! Gie’s a break!

  131. Ken500 says:

    To all the armchair critics. Alex Salmond played a blinder. Got the women’s vote. They fancy him more than Darling. (Not hard – the shouty man who bankrupted Britain)

    On the currency question, all the financial analysts are now coming out supporting Scotland using the Pound and why the Westminster’s arguments are a total joke. Just like their Politicans. Even better taking the Independence argument to a wider audience. Job done.

    STV offered the ‘Debate’ to ITV and they refused it, losing revenues. The shareholders wil not be best pleased.

  132. highseastim says:

    I have been following this website for a while now and find it excellent, as an offshore worker I try and spread the word about this site to as many of my colleagues as possible, keep up the good work.
    Cynical highlander, can I just say what an excellent video and some first class speakers, having already attended one of Tommy Sheridan’s talks in Inverness, I have a good feeling about the outcome.

  133. Luigi says:

    And let’s not forget wee union Jack McConnell ‘giving back’ £1.5bn, at least he made good out of it eh Lord what did we get sweet FA

    Ermine is not cheap, these days. You did not expect a politician to spend his own money, did you?

  134. Muscleguy says:


    Re: transport spending.

    Well, as that storm in Devon showed rail lines running along the coast are going to be increasingly vulnerable. So one thing we could do would be to move lovely picturesque rail lines inland.

    The East Coast Mainline from Edinburgh to Aberdeen runs right along or very close to the coast in a number of places making it vulnerable to storm damage. Here in the eastern parts of Dundee it is very close in places.

    Making infrastructure more resilient would be a good investment in economic sustainability. Imagine the disruption if the line was cut in more than one place in a big storm.

    This is of course not just a Scottish problem, but it is one we can lobby the iScottish Government to think seriously about. Since there will be lots of planning bruhaha the process will not be a quick one but it needs thinking about now.

  135. David says:

    O/T maybe

    Pegging the pound how does this work and does this work elsewhere?

    quelle surpise it does

    The HKMA is responsible for achieving the monetary policy objective in Hong Kong determined by the Financial Secretary, including determining the strategy, instrument and operational means for doing so, and for maintaining the stability and integrity of the monetary system of Hong Kong.

    The monetary policy objective of Hong Kong is currency stability, defined as a stable external exchange value of the currency of Hong Kong, in terms of its exchange rate in the foreign exchange market against the US dollar, at around HK$7.80 to US$1. The structure of the monetary system is characterised by Currency Board arrangements, requiring the Hong Kong dollar Monetary Base to be at least 100 per cent backed by, and changes in it to be 100 per cent matched by corresponding changes in, US dollar reserves held in the Exchange Fund at the fixed exchange rate of HK$7.80 to US$1.

    The activities of the HKMA during the year on the maintenance of monetary stability can be found in the Monetary Stability chapter of the HKMA Annual Report.

  136. Churm Rincewind says:

    David – I completely agree. If there is no currency union then sterlingisation backed by a currency peg is entirely practicable – as you point out, it works for Hong Kong.

    However, if Scotland’s currency is tied to rUK sterling, then it has to cede monetary policy (and possibly some degree of fiscal policy) to Westminster, which may or may not result in policies appropriate to Scotland.

    I personally don’t think this would be a problem in real life. Ireland operated a similar and successful currency peg to sterling for some fifty years after independence before aligning its currency with Europe and finally joining the euro.

    The problem is entirely political. In my view the Scottish Government finds itself unable to mention this sort of arrangement because it would look like a retreat from full independence. I think they’re wrong – better to address the issue than to fudge it, which is what they’re doing at the moment.

    But then I’m not a politician.

  137. fred blogger says:

    the people of scotland been violated for far too long, enough!

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