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Church And State

Posted on December 27, 2022 by

This is a most peculiar intervention.

Religious figures normally restrict their political commentary to matters within their obvious remit, such as poverty and inequality, for which they can cite plentiful scripture about rich men and the eyes of needles and whatnot. We’re unaware of any passages in the Bible relating to the constitutional implications of the Scotland Act 1998.

Moderator in the Church Of Scotland is a ceremonial role lasting only 12 months, but Dr Iain Greenshields has attempted to put his stamp on it (one for the folks at home, there) by opining that a UK general election – and he was quite specific about meaning a UK one – is not an appropriate means of achieving Scotland’s independence.

From his quoted comments in the Times piece it’s not clear whether he’s some sort of ecumenical Kenny Farquharson who just wants Scots to shut up and vote Labour again, or a radical Yes supporter attempting to subtly influence the SNP towards a Holyrood plebiscite instead. But either way, for such a traditionally-neutral figure to come out with such an unexpectedly blunt political opinion is perhaps a sign of just what a terrible idea using a Westminster election to decide Scotland’s future is.

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111 to “Church And State”

  1. robertkknight says:

    Perhaps these (predominantly) men of the cloth best stick to that which they know best – getting pensioners to part with their hard-earned every Sunday morning in exchange for some warm words and a gossip-laced cup of tea.

  2. Haud says:

    Is headed to the Lords???


  3. Frank Black says:

    Doing the lords work, there.

  4. Republicofscotland says:

    lets face it, its very unlikely that the next GE will amount to anything on the indy front, the next GE for the SNP is about putting as many SNP MP bums on benches as possible.

    As for Rev Greenshields, he’s probably a unionist getting his tuppence worth in on Sturgeon’s GE plan.

    He’s in your line/ex-line of business Rev, no insider information coming your way on Greenshields utterance.

    He’s no Canon Kenyon Wright.

    “Well, we say yes and we are the people.”

  5. P says:

    He must be one of Nikla’s sheep…

  6. Derek says:

    I got my first sleeping bag on them.

  7. Neil in Glasgow says:

    Quite often I get the impression that lots of these controversial statements are actually just people responding to being asked a question, and folk are of course entitled to them as long as they don’t impact adversely on other folk. That said, I’m no fan of religion, of any kind, however unfortunately there is, in my eyes, an unhealthy obsession with the way it should influence society. This gent clearly has an over inflated sense of his own importance and really should just stick to sending us all to damnation. Although I suppose in a way that’s what he’s doing, isnt it?

  8. ronald anderson says:

    Church & State should never mix their metaphors His very Reverend reverend can F OFF

  9. PacMan says:

    This is nothing new as per article from 2014:

    The Church of Scotland’s most senior cleric has expressed fears that “something ugly” is permeating the referendum campaign, as a new poll finds that voters believe the country will be divided after 18 September regardless of the outcome of the vote.

    The Right Rev John Chalmers, moderator of the General Assembly, said: “I am repelled by the name-calling and rancour we have seen in recent weeks. We need to behave as though we are paving the way for working together whatever the outcome.

    “I have faith that despite divergent views most Scots are behaving courteously during the runup to the referendum. However, it has become clear that some are not. I fear that something ugly may be beginning to permeate the independence debate.”

  10. Gregory Beekman says:


    Would the Holyrood manifesto have to word it like below?

    Independence is not part of Holyrood’s remit but if you vote us into Holyrood with a majority, we will discuss the results implications with Westminster because talking with Westminster is part of Holyrood’s remit.

  11. Morag says:

    Point of information.

    There is no such thing as the “Moderator of the Church of Scotland”. The title of the role is the “Moderator of the General Assembly” (of the Church of Scotland. Anyone saying “Moderator of the Church of Scotland is displaying ignorance of the way the church functions and of the scope and remit of the role.

  12. Shug says:

    It is funny how Scotland’s national church enshrined in the claim of right was out flanked by the Episcopal church

    Cannon kennyon wright and the right of the people and there was another recently talking about poverty.

    In a way it explains why their churches are empty and more than half expected to close in the coming year.

    He was a minister in larkhall at one point so enough said I suppose

    Who was it said Scotland will be free when the last church of Scotland minister is choked to death on the last copy of the Sunday post??

    The church of Scotland is a disgrace to those that founded it an utter utter disgrace.

    Where are the people who supported the covenant .

  13. PhilM says:

    This rung a distant bell and so I googled a bit to find out why…
    In late 2015 the CoE and CoS released to the press the Columba Declaration which acknowledges the “distinctive partnership in the gospel to which our two Churches are called within the United Kingdom, rooted in our shared history and in our parallel and overlapping roles as the churches of our respective nations.”
    Let no man cast asunder that which is parallel and overlapping…
    The CoE is sui generis but the CoS’s formation was as a Calvinist church, so I thought it was a weird basis for any form of co-operation, however the language of the quote and the timing kind of gives the game away. Why has it taken over 300 years for these two churches to make such a declaration…could it have anything to do with the 2014 referendum d’ya think?!! Much like Jeremy Hunt’s Edinburgh Reforms, they even gave quite deliberately the Declaration a link to Scotland rather than England. It’s the not-so-subtle use of subtle power. The moderator’s intervention should be seen in the same vein. His intervention – made at a time when even evangelical atheists might pay some attention – is the fruit of this new association between the churches. We plebs have no idea about this level of politics but I always find it interesting how many of our leaders still retain allegiance to some form of Christianity. Swinney, Germaine Greer of the Greens are CoS, there may be others. Forbes and Blackford are even more Calvinist (this may involve believing in ‘double predestination’, the perfect ideology for Scottish public servants).
    I have a passing interest in this because there’s a distinct preponderance of evangelical Christians in management positions throughout our public bodies. I shouldn’t need to point this out but if you have any experience of how these public bodies conduct themselves…well, let’s just say the hypocrisy involved is breathtaking…

  14. John Main says:

    Having read the article it seems quite reasonable to me. And as a sovereign Scot (I presume), the Moderator has as much right to speak up as every other Scot.

    Innarestin to read the BTL comments, telling him to GTF. Presumably he can take his wealth tax fannying and his Trident scrapping shite and his NHS funding bollocks and stick them all where the sun don’t shine.

    But to be serious for a mo. The UK GE plebiscite idea sucks. We don’t need to be told that.

    The HR immediate dissolution and plebiscite would work. The real crime here is that the SNP and their criminal partners have killed it off, and thus ensured it doesn’t even impinge on the consciousness of the MSM.

    Maybes a real “journalist” should ask the Moderator his views on the HR plebiscite idea.

  15. Hugh Jarse says:

    Thanks Stu.

  16. Donald Raymond says:

    Lol he knows his constituency. If there’s a denser concentration of unionists than among the 2% of the population, with an average age in their late 70s, who attend the Church of Scotland on a Sunday, then I don’t know where you could find it.

  17. John Main says:

    @PhilM 3:04

    “There’s a distinct preponderance of evangelical Christians in management positions throughout our public bodies”

    Quite a claim there, Phil, and if true, somewhere on the extreme end of the scale between mind boggling and seismic.

    There was me thinking these management positions were stuffed with “new Scots” and “diversity quota shoe ins”!

    WTF is going on?

  18. Ottomanboi says:

    The papacy, the auld kirk, recognized Scotland’s independence and sovereignty centuries ago, especially during English expansionism in the middle ages. for an example of Guardian «spinning» a headline.
    The neu kirk has been rather less assertive in that area except with regard to its legal position and privilèges as a national church with the Union set up.
    The post of Kirk Moderator is I suspect a political appointment, although that would probably be denied. However, on that assumption he might well be inclined to preach from the status quo text, would he not? Charles III has sworn to defend the order.
    Or do I miss some cautious theocratic fence sitting here?

  19. North chiel says:

    I suppose he is not to concerned as an Act of the “ British” parliament in 1921 guaranteed the Independence of the COScotland ? Consequently is his spiritual independence not beholden to Westminster ?

  20. Mia says:

    And there we go. Figures in any position of power are now being deployed in force with the mission of preventing the people of Scotland handing their MPs a democratic mandate to vacate the seats in Westminster, to reconvene the old Scottish Parliament and repeal the treaty of union. The main and most direct route to Scotland’s independence. Incidentally also the route that removes from the Uk establishment control of the timeline.

    I wonder who they will chose next as the messenger of wisdom interceding on behalf of the UK union and sent to help Nicola Sturgeon and her pretend SNP out of the tangle of deception and lies they got themselves in.

    Maybe the Dalai lama, Noe sailing back from the afterlife in his ark, a reincarnated Churchill with cigar and all, or just an overdose of Prof Curtice’s predictions of doom and gloom in the form of electoral statistics. The possibilities here are endless.

    The questions for me are:

    What do we have to lose with a plebiscite GE?

    In what manual was it stated categorically and by whom that we can only have ONE plebiscitary election?
    In none

    What is stopping potential MPs from standing on a mandate to repeal the Treaty of Union in each single election, just like the SNP did until the late 90’s?

    Gosh, you can now even taste their fear

  21. George Ferguson says:

    I would rather the Kirk concerned itself with moral matters and the protection of vulnerable groups, like women. The Kirk membership have been largely silent on the GRRB. A moral vacuum on their part.

  22. Alf Baird says:

    It seems no accident that the privileges of Scotland’s church and legal establishments were and remain specifically protected in the articles of the Treaty of Union whilst the same treaty leaves the nation’s masses enslaved. Postcolonial theory tells us that colonialism is always a co-operative venture with native elites and bourgeoisie co-opted in joining the imperial power in its contempt for the native people and culture (Fanon; Memmi).

  23. Frank Gillougley says:

    My immediate thought here, and do correct me if I’m wrong, is that under Margaret Thatcher when she was Prime Minister, the CoS invited her one year to their general assembly where she gave her famous sermon on the mound speech. And of course, she herself had opined that should the SNP gain a majority of scottish seats in a GE then that was it! Game set and match!

    Not sure what has changed in the bible since then….

  24. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “This is nothing new as per article from 2014:”

    Well, no – “everyone please be nice to each other” is well within the church’s normal purview. My point was that this is a very unusually specific interjection.

  25. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Would the Holyrood manifesto have to word it like below?”

    You can phrase a manifesto any way you like.

  26. Geoff Anderson says:

    The same KirK that told the tenants not to challenge their Masters during the Clearances.
    The same KirK that supported the Act of Union if they kept their land and Service.

  27. Gregory Beekman says:

    Could this be in a Holyrood manifesto?

    If elected as a majority to Holyrood

    – we will move the nuclear submarine base from the Clyde to Shetland
    – we will abolish the monarchy
    – we will rejoin the EU

    Because if they can’t be in a Holyrood manifesto, how can independence, given it’s as reserved as the other topics?

    Using a Westminster GE as indyref2 sucks, but at least it couldn’t be legally challenged as a Holyrood one could.

  28. Gregory Beekman says:

    Basically, my point is, just how constrained is a devolved parliament and do those constraints extend to the manifesto?

    Or is there a law that says a manifesto to a constrained parliament can be about anything, even topics the constrained parliament isn’t allowed to legislate on?

    (By constrained parliament, I mean one like Holyrood, constrained or limited by law in what it can and can’t do.)

  29. SusanAHF says:

    Does the Church if Scotland have any sway with the populace? As was rightly pointed out this was the Church that conspired with the landowners during the Clearances. Nowadays, self serving and rather irrelevant.

  30. George Ferguson says:

    @Geoff Anderson 3:40pm
    And anyone that has visited Badbea and the insanity of bairns chained to the house to prevent them from falling over the cliffs recognises the failure of moral integrity at the time. The Kirk membership doesn’t need to make the same mistake twice. So they should look at the GRRB from a moral perspective and give guidance on the immorality of GRRB.

  31. John Main says:

    @Gregory Beekman 3:41

    I see no reason why these examples should be omitted from a HR election manifesto, along with anything else certain to command substantial support.

    My point is, a true fire-in-the-belly leader and party, confident of a solid majority from the voters, can propose anything. This is politics, a realm in which the rules and laws get re-written with impunity when enough people want them to change (unlike biology and physics, where denying reality merely causes a bruising head-on collision with reality).

    Seems clear enough to me that NS and the SNP long ago dowsed the fires in their bellies. But more importantly, as any grey-suited, soulless technocrat could push through Indy if support for it was strong enough, seems clear to me also that the support is just not there.

    Bottom line, we all see and hear on a daily basis what a free, sovereign people will do and what they will suffer for their freedom. Outside of a minority, that kind of passion and drive shows little sign of existence in Scotland right now.

  32. smitty says:

    The Church of Scotland refused to stand against Self ID last week. This gender bullshit is a belief: it is not reality. I am surprised that the Church allowed another belief to take over Scotland. They are cowards too.

  33. Gregory Beekman says:

    @John Main

    I guess the workaround could be:

    “We will raise with Westminster our desire to do X on reserved matter Y.”

    But you’re probably right, it’s politics and anything goes. On Westminster, it says:

    A manifesto is a publication issued by a political party before a General Election. It contains the set of policies that the party stands for and would wish to implement if elected to govern.

    I guess the inclusion of the word ‘wish’ means anything can be in the manifesto, even if you don’t have the power to do it!

  34. Ruby says:

    smitty says:
    27 December, 2022 at 4:46 pm

    The Church of Scotland refused to stand against Self ID last week.

    This might explain why:

  35. Scott Shaw says:

    Church and State, 2 cheeks of the same arse.

  36. Gregory Beekman says:

    Interesting answer to a question about manifestos and law:,,-203998,00.html

  37. Gregory Beekman says:

    It’s a strange link, don’t think my a href tag understood it.

    Here it is:,,-203998,00.html

  38. Gregory Beekman says:

    Oh well, just copy and paste!

  39. Ruby says:

    ‘Election can’t be a de facto referendum’

    At the moment I agree with him. I might need a bit of convincing about the de facto referendum malarky.

    One thing for sure it ain’t going to be Sturgeon who will convince me. I am immediately suspicious of anything she is involved in.

    I’ve just been looking at

    King Whisperers, The: Power Behind the Throne, from Rasputin to Rove

    I’m wondering who is the ‘power behind the Holyrood throne’

    Could it be Peter Murrell?
    Is Murrell the Scottish version of Rasputin?

    That could explain why when Salmond ceased to be her mentor and Murrell took over everything went awry.

    Keep signing. It’s over 7K now.

  40. Confused says:

    judaizing heretics, at it again … causing trouble

    – they need to come home, re-embrace the true faith


    big, if true

  41. Doug says:

    “Greenshields was with the Queen the week before she died. He spent the weekend at Balmoral, and ate dinner with her.”

    The National [19/9/22]

    Greenshields and Liz divvying up?

  42. Ruby says:

    Caught out again by the mad moderation bot. It was Rasp*tin wot did it.
    Tut! It’s not is if I didn’t know p*tin was a banned word as is every word that
    contains p*tin ie comp*ting etc etc etc.

    ‘Election can’t be a de facto referendum’

    At the moment I agree with him. I might need a bit of convincing about the de facto referendum malarky.

    One thing for sure it ain’t going to be Sturgeon who will convince me. I am immediately suspicious of anything she is involved in.

    I’ve just been looking at

    King Whisperers, The: Power Behind the Throne, from Rasp*tin to Rove

    I’m wondering who is the ‘power behind the Holyrood throne’

    Could it be Peter Murrell?
    Is Murrell the Scottish version of Rasp*tin?

    That could explain why when Salmond ceased to be her mentor and Murrell took over everything went awry.

  43. James Che says:

    Perhaps the moderator of the church of Scotland would be wise to know when to be quite, been as the treaty of the union articles state that religion would be different between Scotland and England,
    Along with education and Scots law.

    Perhaps he is blind to the breeching the articles of the treaty of union myth like Westminster is.

  44. Viscount Ennui says:

    ” but Dr Iain Greenshields has attempted to put his stamp on it..”

    It is no more than a token gesture.

  45. CALLUM says:

    I thought the Church of Scotland was supposed to be politically neutral on the subject of independence.

  46. Lorna Campbell says:

    Maybe I’m very wrong, but I agree that most people who have given it any thought would come out against a GE indyref because of the implications. It really does have to be a SE one, if any. Churchmen have always put their oar in, in politics – all over the world. Archbishop Tutu, in South Africa? The Russian Orthodox Church in the Soviet Union/Russia? The Roman Catholic bishops and clergy in South American dictatorships? Again, the Catholic Church in Poland? The Catholic and Episcopalian Churches in the ’45? Most of these would have been risking their lives, and many did die. Perhaps the Moderator is saying: don’t let rUK step in and upset matters at this stage. Mostly, in independence bids by countries, the established church is in favour.

    Doug: I’m a republican, but, as head of the church in Scotland, barring the Queen herself, the Moderator would be duty-bound to attend a dying woman, the Head of State.

  47. twathater says:

    As others have said this moralising from individuals is why we are in the position we are in, who the fuck do these people think they are to hold moral and ethical sway over 5 million people

    We have sturgeon holding a whole nation in contempt by INSISTING that independence can ONLY be won by having WM consent

    We have sturgeon telling us that we are some kind of stupid when the MAJORITY of Scottish citizens REFUSE to accept that you CAN change sex

    We have judges who INSIST that sex is not immutable and that MEN with a penis can become women, and judges who introduce protection orders with severe penalties to protect LIARS and deliberate PERJURERS when they colluded in an attempt to FRAME an innocent man

    These absolute arseholes are why I hold so much hope and faith in SALVO, SSRG and LIBERATION.SCOT,WE the normal hard working people of Scotland desperately need to TAKE BACK CONTROL of our country from all these sanctimonious self serving condescending jobsworths who THINK they know best

    Religious reps have become as useful and corrupted as politicians, there are very few who are trustworthy and honest , ANY religious rep who is not calling out the establishments of WM and HR for the despicable and amoral governance of our countries is a waste of space and oxygen ,any religious rep concentrating on keeping this deplorable union together whilst their fellow Scots suffer indignity and poverty is truly a fake man of God and should reflect on his integrity and worthyness

  48. John Main says:

    Innarestin article on Wiki detailing the famous Russtis who have mysteriously died in 2022. Twenty one this year so far.

    Falling out of windows, out of a blue sky heart attacks, suicide by multiple gunshot wounds, that kind of thing.

    Turns out they all seem to have one thing in common. Can you guess what it is yet?

    Let’s hope nobody at HR gets ideas.

  49. John Main says:


    To be fair to the guy, all he said was that the WM GE plebiscite route wouldn’t work.

    An opinion I, and a few others, agree with.

    As I wrote above, until he is asked his opinion on the HR plebiscite election route, and then maybes if he rubbishes that one too, he probably deserves the benefit of the doubt.

  50. Owen Mullions says:

    Thanks to Ruby and Pacman for their help

    The Bute House Bunker (bad language alert)

    In The Ladies

    Fr Pete

  51. wullie says:

    Mr Moderator your church is a disgrace.
    The Church of Scotland , the only church on the planet to have sold its entire flock down the swanny in 1707 for its own selfish ends.
    Just like all the institutions in Scotland the church, the law, education, you name it they kept their independence after 1707 in doing do they made sure the Scottish people lost everything.
    In my opinion to this day they all work for and on behalf of England.

  52. Ruby says:



    excuse my french

  53. Geri says:

    It’s no surprise.
    He’s giving a dog whistle to his flock.

    Orange order
    Tub thumping fluters
    Questionable land ownership & tax avoidance
    & The establishment that allows the above to continue without interference or hindrance.

    I don’t remember any of that shit in the Bible other than being alert to the shenanigans of wolves in sheep’s clothing & how millionaires will roast in hell.

    It’s nice he had lunch with Lizzie, I bet he feasted like a pig. He is duty bound to attend the sick & the dying. It’s also to help the poor. Instead of interjecting on the rights & wrongs of a democratic election, his time would be better spent helping out in the soup kitchen rather than be mouth almighty for the government who despise the poor & refugees.

    Fkn eejit.
    & Now that the GRR is law, his church now being inundated with Trans clergy. They’re already trying it south of the border.

    I can’t wait for the blue rinse brigades reaction LOLz!
    A Plebiscite GE is the least of his worries.

  54. Ruby says:

    Owen Mullions says:
    27 December, 2022 at 6:19 pm

    Thanks to Ruby and Pacman for their help

    I think that Pacman has led you astray!

    I’m taking no responsibility for your youtube links.

    What have you done Owen?

    What are the titles of these youtube videos?

  55. Ruby says:

    That’s ‘in the ladies’ Owen

    You’ve been inserting underscorces & full stops where you shouldn’t.

    Warning ‘in the ladies’ could put you off your tea it might even put you off ‘women’.

  56. Ruby says:


    The Bute House Bunker (bad language alert)

    Father Murrell

  57. Robert Hughes says:

    ” Turns out they all seem to have one thing in common. Can you guess what it is yet? ”

    They all thought they’d have to share a taxi with you ?

  58. JGedd says:

    Ruby’s link @ 4.52pm is amusing. Why the congregation didn’t leave with tears of laughter is surprising.
    Didn’t anyone tell the deluded lad delivering the sermon that a painting is not a photograph and those paintings are therefore works of the imagination? Some 14 centuries after the subject has died too.

    Therefore, assuming the veracity of medieval paintings as true depictions of the naked body of Jesus is laughable. Was he not aware that medieval paintings delicately avoid showing that Jesus had male genitalia because that would have offended against Church orthodoxy at the time (which was a bit prudish about ‘that sort of thing’ anyway) but would have been horrified at any depiction that showed Jesus to be an actual sexual being? The representation is therefore androgynous, not trans, hence the modestly crossed legs. (Sometimes it was a strategically placed cloth or fig leaf.)

    He also has a laughable idea of human anatomy if he thinks that the wound in the side equates to a vagina. It is (could it be?) a wound in the side. But the lad was willing to stretch belief to preposterous levels of irrationality. ( Was that why the Dean was so willing to defend him? What price a Cambridge education if it supports tumshies sermonising though the Dean did say as a defence, that Cambridge believed in open debate. Has he not noticed that the trans ideology brooks no dissent or debate?) Mind you, the monotheistic religions were historically prone to that, too, and historically they weren’t very kind to women either.

  59. AberdeenPict says:

    Ah, the reverend Greenshield, he made good stamps back in the day :-).

    I guess a few of us on here remember the old Green shield stamps.

  60. Tom says:

    off-topic, but I think good news .. Good Law Project is to open an office in Edinburgh in 2023.

    They say: ” Good Law Project is a not-for-profit campaign organisation that uses the law to hold power to account, protect the environment and ensure no one is left behind.

    ” We had a primary role in overturning the prorogation of Parliament in 2019. We successfully challenged the Government’s operation of a fast track ‘VIP lane’ for awarding lucrative PPE contracts to those with political connections, and our campaigning played a key role in the Met Police opening an investigation into Boris Johnson over the Partygate scandal. In July, we forced the Government to accept that its flagship Net Zero strategy is unlawful and to come up with a proper plan.

    ” Good Law Project has previously brought a number of leading constitutional cases in Scotland to improve governance of the Brexit process such as the Wightman case to establish whether Article 50 could be unilaterally revoked should Parliament choose, the Benn Act case to compel the Prime Minister to seek an extension to the date of our departure from the European Union, and the case challenging the prorogation of Parliament in 2019.

    ” A bold, young organisation with a ground-breaking track record, we speak the truth and act with integrity. We are proud to be primarily funded by members of the public, which keeps us fiercely independent. Our organisation has experienced meteoric growth over the last two years.

    ” Our close-knit team of staff work across five core areas: campaigning, external affairs,legal, operations and partnerships. We’re nimble and reactive to external events, which means Good Law Project suits people who thrive in a fast-paced environment and share our passion for upholding democracy, protecting the environment and ensuring no one is left behind.

    ” Our culture is one of openness and innovation that encourages all staff to pitch ideas and influence our direction. We are brave, honest and decisive – those are Good Law Project’s values. We recognise the value of our employees, individually and collectively, and are committed to investing in their welfare and development.

    ” In August 2022 we established an independent SRA-regulated law firm in London, Good Law Practice, to support and develop our work. “

  61. Mac Maghnais says:

    Idea to get dropped at special convention in 3 months time.

  62. Geri says:

    Here’s my *Thought for the day* Dr Banner of Trinity college.

    For true believers there is only one who mocks & debases Jesus Christ, you’ve probably heard of him, his name is Satan & he despises the human form because God never chose a fallen turd to be the saviour of the world. He chose a human being despite all its faults to be forgiven. Satan will not.
    For a man of the cloth it’s shocking he’d let a minion of Satan stand at the pulpit mocking Christ as a tranny.

  63. Mia says:

    “most people who have given it any thought would come out against a GE indyref because of the implications. It really does have to be a SE one”

    The main problem I see with that reasoning is it really is Scotland’s MPs who hold the key to end the treaty. As far as I understand, Scotland’s MPs are not subordinated to Holyrood, if anything, it is the other way round. Even if MSPs are elected on a mandate to withdraw power from the MPs and bring that power to Holyrood, I am not sure the MPs would let go of that power easily.

    This means that unless both sets of MPs are working in coordination, a win in a Holyrood plebiscite election alone will serve for nothing more than adding pressure. It would still be dependent on Westminster to move forward, which we know will refuse to.

    In particular, this would be the case if we have a majority of charlatans as Scotland MPs peddling the bullshit they are acting as the main opposition, or they want to be good parliamentarians, or they are there so Scotland’s voice can be heard, or they are there to fight against the tories, or now is not the time because…things, that sort of crap we are so fed up of hearing.

    Using a Holyrood election as a plebiscite on independence is a great alternative to a referendum because the franchise is the same. But then what? For as long as Holyrood chooses to abide by Scotland’s Act, it will remain powerless to effect the result unless the majority of Scotland’s MPs have been previously elected on a explicit mandate to vacate the seats and repeal the treaty of union should the people of Scotland vote for independence at any point during their term.

    Mr Salmond made it work without the support of Scotland’s MPs because he is a very determined and persuasive man who managed to get Cameron and the Scotland MPs to agree to a referendum where the result would be respected by both sites (at least in theory)

    But Sturgeon is no Mr Salmond and she clearly has not the same motivation, never mind interest, in delivering independence.

    The worse situation we can possibly have is one where the result of a HOlyrood election plebiscite is a yes for independence, MSPs in Holyrood are all geared up for independence but they are being blocked by Scotland’s MPs who refuse to transfer their power. That is the sure way of getting Holyrood closed down.

    From where I am sitting, yes, a plebiscite GE will be very difficult to win as a majority of the vote because 16, 17 year olds and the EU citizens cannot vote. But a win is not impossible. In fact, the only recent election where a majority of pro-indy vote was achieved was the GE2015.

    I am of the opinion that a majority of MPs elected on a mandate to repeal the treaty is enough to reconvene the old parliament and repeal the treaty. But I appreciate many may see this as undemocratic and therefore the majority of the vote as well is desirable.

    To achieve this I think we need two plebiscite elections on a tandem. We set the foundations to move forward and end the treaty with a majority of MPs elected on a GE with a mandate for independence, to vacate the seats and reconvene Scotland’s old parliament. If we do not get a majority of the vote at that point, then we go for the kill with a Holyrood election where MSPs are also elected on the same mandate.

    I am also of the opinion that achieving a majority of the vote, being it in a GE or Holyrood election will be very difficult. Not for lack of support for independence, but because I am convinced the Uk establishment will play dirty and will use every tool it has in the box to rob us of the result.

    For this very reason, if what we want is a majority of the vote, I am of the opinion that EVERY single election in the UK where Scotland takes part, being that Holyrood, council or GE, must become a plebiscite on independence. This will lock the UK parties in a permanent fight against independence and will not let them move forward. It will exhaust them because they will not be able to fight for very long on both fronts in Scotland against independence and in England for governance, while keeping the pretence they can govern both simultaneously without crushing one of them. I suspect it will not take long for England voters to be fed up of hearing about Scotland’s independence and demand the union to be dissolved.

    Persistence here and showing to the UK parties that ending the union is the only way out of the nightmare, is the key.

  64. JGedd says:

    Sounds good on first reading, Tom. What is your stance on the GRR and how it will impact on women though?

  65. Geri says:

    I don’t think so Tom.

    A London based law firm has no business in Scotland.

  66. George Ferguson says:

    @JGedd 8:03pm
    Doesn’t sound good to me on first reading. Good for Law Project lost many cases in England after a huge amount of money supporting them. Jolyon is fronting the organisation. Decided to relocate operations to Scotland where they think Judges are more progressive and are easier to win over. I would rather donate to an indigenous organisation that has a real gripe. For example For Women Scotland. But you are free to spend your money in anyway you can.

  67. Geri says:

    It appears he wants Scottish judges to rule on English cases cause English judges are captured. They’ll also play a role in holding the Scottish government to account..

    I think that ends in OFF!

  68. crazycat says:

    The Good Law Project (which appears to have a very flexible definition of “winning” a court case) is run by the dreadful TRA/MRA Jolyon Maugham (fervent supporter of Mermaids).

    I don’t regard their arrival in Scotland as a positive in any way; if we want to set up a similar organization here, fair enough, but they should keep their nebs out of our business (in my opinion).

  69. Geri says:

    I wonder if he had Cherry in mind relocating here?

    Other than that he has no business sticking his nebb into Holyrood. We have WM for that. We don’t need another one.

  70. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    What I don’t understand is…

    When I’m seeing a YouTube video and want to share it, its URL in the address bar usually looks like:–Ijdc

    ie, “”.

    Where do these “” come from?


  71. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    BTW: that wee video in there was for Ruby…


  72. JGedd says:

    George Ferguson @ 8.21pm

    It was a tongue-in-cheek remark, George. I’m aware of The Good Law Project and Jolyon Maughan. Didn’t have much time then to make a proper comment but I knew that while I was absent, good folks like yourself, crazycat etc would be all over it. I have no intention of donating to it and I have a good idea what Tom’s answer to my question might have been, if he were being honest.

  73. Robert Hughes says:

    crazycat says:
    27 December, 2022 at 8:23 pm

    ” The Good Law Project (which appears to have a very flexible definition of “winning” a court case) is run by the dreadful TRA/MRA Jolyon Maugham (fervent supporter of Mermaids). ”

    Fantastic ! See , this is the Trans Bonus already attracting business to Nu Scotville . They’ve obviously spotted an opportunity to get an arm n a leg into the burgeoning Independence Industry .

    The SnP should start a rival – The Good Chris Law Project

  74. George Ferguson says:

    @JGedd 9:25pm
    No worries save your energy and money for the real enemy that is standing in our path. And we should remember it was them that threw the gauntlet down. Made in Scotland.

  75. John Main says:

    Mia 8:00 pm

    Either Scotland is bankrolling the U.K. or it ain’t.

    If it is, as so many on here claim, then it doesn’t matter how fed up English voters get, WM can’t afford to and therefore won’t give us Indy. As soon as that is explained to the “fed up” English voters, they will be fed up no more.

    As for your idea that EVERY election should become a plebiscite, what makes you think Scots voters are going to vote over and over again for Indy if Indy never happens? It’s irrelevant at WM because of the arithmetic. It’s irrelevant at HR if there is no intention of ScotGov doing anything. At council level, it’s beyond daft.

    Like plenty of Scots, I pay substantially to get my bins emptied and for people to get home helps, kids to get school meals, etc etc. If the people I expect to deliver these services want to play Indy political games, then not on my dosh. I will vote them out just as soon as I can.

    Soz, Mia.

  76. Ruby says:

    Brian Doonthetoon says:
    27 December, 2022 at 9:14 pm

    BTW: that wee video in there was for Ruby…


    Oh Brian! That takes me back to the days of the ‘fuckin playground shit’ with Ellis. 🙂

    I stopped when Stu lost his shit but Ellis didn’t. Daft cunt!

    But then all you moonhowlin’ nativistic fringe nutters with your cunning plans for indy etc didn’t help. You drove the man insane!

    PS where do all these full stops & underscores come from in youtube links?

    html is very unforgiving absolutely no typos allowed!

  77. Derick fae Yell says:

    Minister. Sunday Post. Etc

  78. Ruby says:–Ijdc

    That is funny but a skit made from the exchange between Ellis and I would be even funnier.

  79. velofello says:

    First off – Thanks Ruby for the U-tube clips.

    Sturgeon is a prisoner – of her vanity, or of her controllers.Ruby makes a good case in her whisperer contribution, I’m inclined to think Peter Murrell is a facilitator not the controller.

    I’m inclined to defend the Church of Scotland as I have witnessed many commendable actions and support, instances out with it’s “flock”when it could have ” walked on past”.

  80. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    My YouTube links are taken from the address bar.

  81. Mia says:

    “As soon as that is explained to the “fed up” English voters, they will be fed up no more”

    1. I think you are seriously underestimating English exceptionalism. Should the England as the UK parties ever find the backbone to tell their voters in England they are fcked without Scotland because they have squandered all England’s wealth and have left nothing else to sell and, quite rightly, they won’t survive politically.

    2. It will be impossible and untenable in the long term for England as the UK parties to continue fighting two fronts: permanently against independence in Scotland when half of the population is now actively pursuing independence and at the same time trying to sell here the same policies that appeal to England. The only reason they have survived for the last 8 years as political parties is because the useless Sturgeon has refused to actually pursue independence giving the England as the UK parties a very easy ride. Had she not demanded the nonsensical SNP1 and 2, the representation of the unionist parties in Holyrood would have been wiped out. In other words, you can confidently claim that since 2021, the presence of unionist parties in Holyrood has been artificially maintained by Sturgeon’s SNP. But voters have found out, so realistically, how long do you think this deception can be maintained?

    “I pay substantially to get my bins emptied and for people to get home helps, kids to get school meals, etc etc”

    How much is remaining in this union costing us? How much of Scotland’s revenues are being siphoned directly into the England as the UK coffers?

    Why the children of an energy self-sufficient rich country like Scotland and with a wealth of resources are relying on subsidies for school meals and why are the Scottish people having to rely on food banks?

    How many bins could be emptied and how many children could be fed with all those revenues that are sent down south or with the revenues we are having to pay for England’s neoliberal wars and its nuclear garbage parked in Scotland?

    “As for your idea that EVERY election should become a plebiscite, what makes you think Scots voters are going to vote over and over again for Indy if Indy never happens?”

    1. The Scottish people only need to get once over the majority of the vote line if there is already a majority of MPs in place with a mandate to withdraw from Westminster, reconvene the Scottish parliament and revoke the treaty. Once that vote majority happens and the Mps withdraw from Westminster, Westminster loses its legitimacy to continue acting on behalf of Scotland and the union ends.

    2. Because the idea is to include a mandate to withdraw the MPs from Westminster and reconvene the old parliament as a permanent feature of the manifesto, just as it was part of the SNP manifesto until late 90’s. People will know what they are voting for, not like with Sturgeon’s SNP where people thinks they are voting for independence when all what they are voting for is to fatten the bank account of a bunch of charlatans and cowards.

    “I will vote them out just as soon as I can”
    Who will you vote out?

  82. Tinto Chiel says:

    @wullie 6.25: “Mr Moderator your church is a disgrace.
    The Church of Scotland , the only church on the planet to have sold its entire flock down the swanny in 1707 for its own selfish ends.
    Just like all the institutions in Scotland the church, the law, education, you name it they kept their independence after 1707 in doing do they made sure the Scottish people lost everything.
    In my opinion to this day they all work for and on behalf of England.”

    An astute summary of some of the consequences of the union, like Mac’s from a previous thread.

    I don’t seem to remember a single public utterance from the CoS in 2014 on independence, and certainly not anything remotely positive.

  83. Oneliner says:

    I should have thought that at this time of year, those of a Christian disposition are considering peace and goodwill to all.

    To have such lofty ideals subsumed by an overtly political message is crass to say the least.

    Dr Iain Greenshields – that’ll be spin ‘Dr’ then?

  84. Willie says:

    No can’t think what this interjectory comment was about. But does it matter.

    As someone opined earlier about 2% of the population predominately in their 70’s attend the Church of Scotland on a Sunday. As such the Church speaks for no one, or relatively no one. The Church is a busted flush and this Moderator’s interjection reflects little or nothing.

  85. Gregory Beekman says:

    He must be a member of the SNP because only the SNP endlessly go on about the constitution.

  86. David Hannah says:

    I don’t think the Churches have been very good at selling their brand. Unless you’re into singing in a choir, Christianity seems to be on the way out. It’s lacking appeal. The churches are old, and cold. And empty.

    I’ve been to many beautiful weddings and churches listened to charismatic minister’s with warm words for the happy couple and jesus. And of course funerals.

    However, so called modern, open, tolerant values seem to be triumphing over outdated and even repressive religious Christian ones. But if religion is on the way out, and it seems that it is certainly in decline, I do worry about what is replacing it. People have less structure to insitutions and more to their phones. The chuch of Gender ideology is the new faith. Under his eye!

  87. Kcor says:

    “From his quoted comments in the Times piece it’s not clear whether he’s some sort of ecumenical Kenny Farquharson who just wants Scots to shut up and vote Labour again, or a radical Yes supporter attempting to subtly influence the SNP towards a Holyrood plebiscite instead”

    If Scotland was a free democratic country where institutions were headed by honourable and accountable persons, you could simply ask him to clarify his position regarding a Scottish election as a de facto referendum.

    In the absence of any possibility to seek the truth, we can only assume that he just wants Scots to shut up and vote Labour again.

  88. Kcor says:

    Following the naming and shaming of “The Disgraces Of Scotland”, the next step could be for posters here to name SNP MPs and MSPs who they think genuinely want independence to happen before the end of their political careers.

    IMHO, there is not a single one of them.

  89. Geri says:

    John Main.

    The seat of power lies in Westminster. The mother of all parliament’s. Where the treaty lies. Where the claim of right lies & where Chucky resides with all his yoony pageantry & tradition. So you’re wrong that it’s irrelevant being there.

    Have you phoned Sunak & told him what to spend your taxes on & to stop holding pesky elections & handing out wads of cash to his mates? Are your bins not emptied during elections? Who’d you be voting out?

    Holyrood has no power. It’s a branch office. In law.

    If they’ve awarded us 56 or so seats at WM & pro independence parties fills them – that is a declaration that cannot be ignored. BUT they need to hold firm & stop taking part in mundane shit that’s no concern of ours.
    We’ll dismiss Sturgeon in that scenario cause she’s fkn useless. So we need a leader who wont fold like a wet paper bag to the first request for a sit down being a no. It’s undemocratic to keep saying no to a referendum by the only seats they’re given. Our treaty isn’t with Wales or NI either. Personally ,I favour ending the Union without holding one at all. One vote is enough & then it’s over. If it’s Yes then it’s a sit down & negotiate our exit like every other normal country does.

  90. Geri says:


    Thanks for ‘In the Ladies’

    Wow, my tube TV is on autoplay so that guy just played on & is brilliant at explaining all this sissy gender trans crap.

    Added to my subs, ta.

    Check out the ‘What I got wrong about Trans’ part 1 & 2.
    Explains why the gay community are also under attack with this nonsense. Heartbreaking on his further vidsto the damage being done to young gay ppl with mutilation. Trans out the gay.

    Briandoonthetoon links come from using the app. When you click to share it has those types of links on a device like a phone or tablet. That’ll explain why mine never work either despite revolving htpp bit. Cheers for clearing that up lol. Mystery solved.

  91. Owen Mullions says:

    Thanks for sorting out those you tube links, Ruby. I’ll leave it to the more competent in future. Meanwhile, I’m off to Bute House to self-id as a daft wee lassie!?

  92. Ruby says:

    JGedd says:
    27 December, 2022 at 7:32 pm

    Therefore, assuming the veracity of medieval paintings as true depictions of the naked body of Jesus is laughable.

    I find symbolism in art all very interesting but I would never have thought of a wound in a man’s side as symbolising a bleeding vagina.
    Wot Jesus has ‘the painters in!

    The great thing about art is it can mean anything you want it to mean.

    I want to hear more of this man’s views on art.

    It’s quite scary watching the world go bat shit crazy but at the same time highly entertaining.

  93. Ruby says:

    Geri says:
    28 December, 2022 at 4:01 am


    Thanks for ‘In the Ladies’

    Wow, my tube TV is on autoplay so that guy just played on & is brilliant at explaining all this sissy gender trans crap.

    Me too. Menni is brilliant. I’ll post links later.

  94. Ruby says:

    velofello says:
    27 December, 2022 at 10:26 pm

    First off – Thanks Ruby for the U-tube clips.

    These brilliant videos were from Owen.

    Things just got a bit mixed up with his links.

    I’ll be doing more later re Sturgeon and her mentors. Currently searching psychology sites for the correct description for a person like Sturgeon.

    Owen don’t give up! I bet Brian will come up with a solution to the problem with YouTube links from the app.

    In the meantime if you just post the title of the YouTube video I’m sure someone will sort out the links.

    I’ll do it! I like showing off and being a smarty pants. 🙂

  95. Ruby says:

    Jesus could have been transgender, claims Cambridge dean

    Just in case you have no idea what I’m talking about in
    earlier post

  96. Effijy says:

    OK so there is no belief in this guy that Scotland should take control of its own destiny like over 200 other countries but stick with the foreign government we never voted for that steals our revenue and assets giving us 10 years of austerity, 2 years of mismanaged Covid and now several years of recession on top of the Brexit disaster we never voted for.

    Foodbanks, Period poverty, Heat Banks, the first ever strikes by Doctors and Nurses are just some of the benefits of being declared an English Colony completely under their control.

    Why should a Church of Scotland exist?
    Why should this guy have a job in it when the Church of England could control us.

    Maybe he could rewrite the feeding of the 5,000 story in the bible.
    How about Jesus said get your hands off those fish and loaves I’ve just produced.
    4,000 of them goes to the Roman Emperor just as soon as I’ve had mine.

    It is easier for a camel coat wearing Tory to give you the needle than
    a rich one get elected in the Kingdom of Scotland.

    I’ll bet this rogue Rev wonders why his church is on its knees when they ain’t praying.

  97. Ruby says:

    Don’t forget to sign

    Currently at 7439.

  98. Ruby says:
    Scotland’s Gender Recognition Reform Bill will advance rights in keeping with Nelson Mandela’s wise words – Angus Robertson

    Great now you will have time to move on to us doggers.

    Doggers rights are human rights Angus.

    Doggers coming to a primary school carpark near you very soon.
    Thank you Angus.

  99. Ruby says:

    Where are all you ‘fringe nutters’ this mornin’?

    All out at the sales?

    Bloody sales! I just want a nail file from Boots but I can’t stand the idea of fighting my way through all the mad sales shoppers to get one.

    I’m just going to put an elastoplast over my ragged nail.

    Thank goodness Effijy is here otherwise I would be totally alone.

    Great post Effijy it made me laugh but not as much as watching the world going batshit crazy.

    Angus Robertson has self-ided as Nelson Mandela.

    What the hell has happened? Is the Planet Batshit sending out more ‘Crazy Rays’ to earth.

    (You’ll get it if you have watched ‘Flesh Gordon’)

  100. John Main says:

    @Effigy 8:42

    Sigh. Where to begin.

    The guy is calling for a wealth tax.

    The guy is calling for Trident to be scrapped, and the money saved diverted to the NHS and other public services.

    Oh yes, he also says that in his opinion, turning a WM GE into a plebiscitary election is not a good idea.

    I’m guessing that as you can write, you can also read. So what happened? Did you choose just to not read the article, as you didn’t want your free-form, stream-of-consciousness, “poor oppressed us”, “victim buzz word bingo” post to be contaminated with reality?

  101. Republicofscotland says:

    This is quite interesting.

    “An analysis of our data established that 124 (10.4%) of 1192 councillors elected on May 5 2022 have declared that they either work for an MP or MSP. The roles varied from caseworkers to communications members and office managers.

    The National found that 39 councillors work as staffers for MPs, 81 are employed by MSPs, and four are employed by both an MP and MSP.

    The SNP had the largest number of staff employed (81), but also have more councillors, MPs and MSPs than any of the other parties included in the analysis. MSPs employ 47 as staffers, while MPs employ 31. Three SNP councillors work for both an MP and an MSP.

    A total of 21 Tories declared that they have a second job as staffers, as did 10 Labour, five Scottish Greens and five LibDems.

    Of the Tories, 18 are employed by MSPs while three are employed by MPs. Labour MSPs employ 10 ­councillors, and were none declared as working for the party’s only ­Scottish MP Ian Murray.

    All Green’s work for MSPs, as the party does not have any elected ­representatives in Westminster. The LibDems employ one councillor as a staffer for an MSP, two are employed by MPs, and another holds positions with both an MSP and MP. Two independents disclosed that they work for MPs, one Tory and one SNP.

    There are also more male staffers 72 (58%) than female, 52 (42%), which is a higher percentage of the gender breakdown on the total number of councillors counted in the data set – 775 (65%) male and 416 (35%) female.

    Glasgow had the highest number of staffers on the local authority (19) and highest for both MSPs (12) and MPs (5). Followed by North Lanarkshire for both overall number of staffers (16) and MSPs (12). Edinburgh (10) comes third overall, with Aberdeenshire and Renfrewshire joint fourth (9).

    A total of 26 out of 31 local authorities (83%) have councillors who are employed by MSPs or MPs.”

  102. John Main says:

    @David Hannah 11:48

    Religious belief is simply any belief that the holder accepts without credible evidence.

    Once you understand that, you start to see “religious belief” everywhere, particularly among those who claim to be non-religious.

    Christianity is experiencing a radical resurgence around the world, even in this country, although as it is being driven by non-white adherents, you won’t see much evidence of it in your local Kirk.

    Likewise, Islam is on the march, again, even in this country, bringing with it de facto Sharia and blasphemy laws. I’m guessing you don’t mix enough to have noticed the existence of communities who have set up their own parallel and private legal systems in our midst. (Perhaps you don’t know about the parallel Eastern European medical and dental communities either – no shitey NHS for people who are used to medical treatment immediately when needed).

    It’s quite difficult to post on here without thin-skinned regulars taking umbrage, but I am often astonished at just how parochial and narrow the Indy debate is. The wider world is changing at a tremendous rate and Scotland is no more immune to the storms and currents of history than anywhere else.

    As I have pointed out before, the frankly gob smacking demographic changes in England have knock on effects in Scotland that in my view, materially reduce the chances of Indy with every passing year.

  103. dandydons1903 says:

    What a disgraceful outfit the Church of Scotland is. Nothing but a unionists stalking horse.

  104. Republicofscotland says:

    I fuckin hate the Tories, the SNP rapists enablers now have me siding with them on the GRRB, shame on the SNP/Green rapist paedo enablers.

    “SNP MSP Emma Roddick, who has spoken out previously about the patronising tone which she is often subjected to by other Holyrood politicians, said that Mackay’s comment “about sums it up”.

    “Women are targeted with condescending comments and nasty heckles,” she said. ”

    Roddick is one of the SNP rapist/paedo enablers that’s put women and children in real danger.

  105. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Thanks for the info Geri.

  106. Alf Baird says:

    John Main @ 10:56 am

    “the frankly gob smacking demographic changes in England have knock on effects in Scotland that in my view, materially reduce the chances of Indy with every passing year.”

    I agree, and there is plenty of ‘credible evidence’ on this phenomenon. The still secret Scottish census results will no doubt reveal more information, which is probably why they continue to be withheld. My own research found Demographics to be one of the ‘Socio-Political Determinants of Scottish Independence’. It is people who vote efter aw, and where people come from matters a great deal in terms of their holding to a particular national identity.

  107. Geri says:

    Aye, you can take the person out of xx but you’ll not take the xx out the person.

    From the GRR

    *In total 17,058 responses were available for analysis. Most responses (16,843 of those available for analysis) were submitted by individual members of the public, with the remaining 215 submitted by organisations.

    Those resident in Scotland accounted for 55% of respondents, with 32% resident in the rest of the UK and the remaining 14% resident in the rest of the world.*

    When do Scots get to vote on English only laws?

    Is it normal for a country to invite non residents Thier opinions to make laws?
    Or is this just a super new thing to Holyrood cause we’re special?

  108. Geri says:

    17,058 people changed the law in Scotland.
    Out of a population of 5 million.
    Almost half not living here..

    So, as I’m a bit thick, that means all you need is an insane woo woo non resident group of people & an insane woo woo government to implement anything?

  109. john walsh says:

    as someone once said the iron fist covered in a velvet glove. It was ever thus, the church supporting the state. Why are clergy allowed in the house of lords and why doesnt the NuSnp try to undermine this abhorrence to democracy. As the largest group of vote NO were
    Church of England god botherers who have settled here and the Jock branch of the Kirk were no better.
    For God and Country. Aye but another countries Country.

  110. Shug says:

    Have you verified the ones from south of the border
    Why would folk south of the border be interested in such legislation in Scotland
    Who was rounding up such people if they exist

  111. Sarah David says:

    Does this mean the Church of Scotland is the Scots Tories at pray?

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