Blah, blah, blah
Oh, is it that time again? Gosh, it seems to come round quicker every year.
So forgive us if we feel like we’ve heard this song already.
Because we remember when it was going to be in 2017.
And we remember when it was going to be in 2018 or 2019.
And we remember when it was going to be in 2020.
But the important thing is that it’s definitely up to Nicola and Nicola alone.
So we can’t help wondering what’s taking so long. Although at least we do know that it’s always just around the next corner. The war, we know, is always within measurable distance of its end.
And all the legislation must be nearly ready by now, because they’ve been “preparing” it for more than four years to make sure we don’t get taken out of the EU.
But we suppose that “if necessary” from 2016 is pretty flexible. And now we know that we’re not even getting a plan until spring 2021, (so definitely no possibility of a vote before mid-2022 at the very earliest, assuming Boris Johnson co-operates, which he won’t) when do you think it might be necessary enough, readers?
As in ” the boy who cried wolf”.
Will it really happen this time…?
Nicola will never be ready , I personally have lost so much faith in them , all this rhetoric and no actions is bull
The boy who cried wolf springs to mind now 🙁
Ha! Just as aulbea1 said a minute before me 😀
All I can suggest to that, is that the EU power grab is closing in on us, prior to that Sturgeon had time to dilly dally on independence. Won’t the power grab combined with the Hub in Edinburgh severely weaken not just Sturgeons hand but the entire Holyrood parliaments ability to function properly.
Sturgeon doesn’t strike me to be a politician who’d just want to govern a toothless talking shop akin to Stormont, then again I may be way off base here.
It’s about time that it was up to the people of Scotland to decide. If the people we elect to make those decisions are unable or unprepared to do so it’s itime they moved aside!
Promises, promises.
Agreed, the SNP have utter contempt for the intelligence of its voters. If you have anything resembling a brain & are without SNP coloured permanent specs you will recognise this article as the absolute truth.
This announcement is what is known in the trade as expectations management. You have a large body of folk who are champing at the bit for something so you periodically promise it is coming even when it isn’t just to stop them decamping for the ISP for eg in frustration.
I predict next May that turnout will be down. Many simply won’t bother to vote, seeing no reason to do so & concluding that politics is crock. Just like folk did before the indyref.
Congrats SNP, you have become SLAB in all but name. Except your feeble lot are in Holyrood while the effective MP’s are kept at arms length lest they interfere with the comfortable sinecures.
Aye. But it never ceases to amaze me how many folks seem to be taken in by it. Every bloody time. At what point does loyalty to the Party and blind faith become rank Stupidity?
As a side issue, I’d have thought the SNP would’ve had a Draft Bill ‘good to go’. What have their policy folk been working on for the past 6 years? And now there is an issue with ‘the question’? The mind boggles…
What Nicola Sturgeon said in 2017 – link to snp.org
‘If the UK leaves the EU without Scotland indicating beforehand – or at least within a short time after it – that we want a different relationship with Europe, we could face a lengthy period outside not just the EU but also the single market. That could make the task of negotiating a different future much more difficult.
These considerations lead me to the conclusion that if Scotland is to have a real choice – when the terms of Brexit are known, but before it is too late to choose our own course – then that choice should be offered between the autumn of next year, 2018, and the spring of 2019.’
What use is setting out a draft bill after we have been dragged out of the EU with a No Deal (hard) Brexit when Westminster has either neutered Holyrood or possibly shut it down?
And the alternative plan is?
“And the alternative plan is?”
Discussed in an article published LITERALLY THIS FUCKING MORNING, as well as countless others over the last two years. Jesus suffering fuck.
Unless there is radical change in the SNP I shall probably spoil my ballot. It’s my prerogative if there is no party whose policies I agree with. I will not be blackmailed into voting for a party whose policies are anathema to me.
More window dressing.
Well what do you expect? This formula has proven to be a gold mine. Anaesthetic for the masses. Indy movement indifferent and incapacitated. Well done the SNP. Another 5 years of dominating Scottish politics without delivering any benefit to the population. Authoritarianism to boot. Nightmare situation. Where is my hope? Where is the proper Indy party?. Where is the potential?
[…] Wings Over Scotland Blah, blah, blah Oh, is it that time again already? It’s just that we seem to have heard this one […]
We need some constructive criticism from the commentors in here, the rest is just chatter. Speaking of chatter British nationalist commetors in the Britnat media are on the attack over this announcement. If we can’t agree with Sturgeon on this at least let us agree to marshal a defence against this lot.
link to msn.com
archiving article didn’t let me see the comments, r should I say the abuse.
link to archive.is
“She told MSPs that a new draft Bill will be drawn up setting out the timing and terms for a new independence referendum, as well as the question to be asked to voters if it is given the green light by Westminster.”
*..if it is given the green light by Westminster.*
FFS! GTF Sturgeon and make room for a real leader, one with a backbone who will not let London mock us whilst they strip us bare and trample all over our sovereignty. Sturgeon is a spent fuse.
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
1 September, 2020 at 4:56 pm
“And the alternative plan is?”
Discussed in an article published LITERALLY THIS FUCKING MORNING,
“It could have offered the Tories the votes to pass a soft Brexit deal”
do a deal with the tories??? what could go wrong?
thats not 8 indy mandates?
“do a deal with the tories??? what could go wrong?”
We could miss the chance and vote for an election in which they won a huge majority instead of being a weak and powerless minority government unable to pass a single bill.
“thats not 8 indy mandates?”
That isn’t any mandates at all. That’s a lot of bullshit empty promises. What’s your point?
Just read the introduction to the Scottish Government’s legislative programme for the parliamentary year.
It runs to 3577 words, only, one word is missing. that word is: INDEPENDENCE.
Still think Wee Nippy is going to deliver any time soon?
Bugger what Dross and Baroness Buffalo say, INDEPENDENCE should be front and centre of everything the SNP does.
I think Republicofscotland is being generous. Anyone who doesn’t see where the EU is headed must have visited the same purveyor of europhiliac rose-tinted specs that Sturgeon has. The longer the delay, the likelier it is that our powers of self determination will be as restricted by Brussels as they have been by London.
But there were “reasons” each time that caused Nicola not to follow up on that promise, its not her fault … I’m sure this time there will be absolutely nothing that could happen to prevent her from delivering. This time she means it, this time she will deliver. She is working hard to deliver what the people want. You know she has a plan.
I would explain her amazing plan in more detail, but I have to finish filling in the form for the nice man that is going to give me a £1,000,000 for helping him move his inheritance money through my bank account (as his bank won’t accept international payments, the poor guy).
What a lot of Sturgeon’s apologists never address, is the fact that, for all the plaudits she’s been getting from establishment figures (some grudging, some patronising, some sincere) the actual concept of independence hasn’t won a single ounce of reprieve. Not. One. Ounce. If an independence campaign were indeed ever to emerge, these establishment figures will be first in line to denigrate our country and use every dirty trick in the book to prevent our self-determination.
Additionally, for all the talk of increasing support, if we factor in the 3% margin of error, independence could be as low as 52% and too close for comfort, despite being against the backdrop of the most incompetent and pathetically inept UK governments in living memory since 2015.
If this is a sweepstake, just to let you know that I’ve got ‘When the moon is in the seventh house and Jupiter aligns with Mars…’
I’ll bet I’m still much closer than Sturgeon.
BBC News telling us the Scottish government are setting out plans for a Scottish Care Service.
Independence not even getting a mention on our state broadcasters headlines.
To Awkward Westie on 1 September, 2020 at 5:06 pm
Had me raging with your first paragraph and ready to fire off a volley of vitriol in your direction. Then caught on at second paragraph with fits of laughter. 🙂
@ Rev: I agree with you in accepting Andrew Tickell’s line that cases based on the Treaty of Union won’t work.
But what do you say about Craig Murray’s view that a referendum is NOT the way to gain independence? That the normal way is a majority vote for independence in a democratic body and/or a demonstration of the views of a majority through civic bodies such as a Constitutional Convention?
I found his arguments totally convincing so I view with dismay the constant repetition btl on this and other indy blogs, and in the National, that we must be campaigning to get another referendum. I don’t want another referendum. I want a vote in Holyrood and some civic bodies established to give their view in very short order indeed.
I can’t help thinking of charlie brown trying to kick the ball and lucy pulling it away.
I do not think this will wash with the snp grassroots. If , at the very least, angus macleod is not gone by november then I will be.
Ian Blackford should apologise for his hypocrisy and empty rhetoric. An honourable man would then resign. Scotland is being dragged out of the EU against our will and sad to say the snp are doing nothing about it.
So are they lying to the courts when they said there are no imminent plans?
“Ever get the feeling you’ve been cheated?” 1978 John Lydon
Dickie says on 1 September, 2020 at 5:19 pm: “So are they lying to the courts when they said there are no imminent plans?”
They said “Scottish independence vote is not imminent.” So the answer to your question is no. It’s about the only time they’ve told the truth. There is absolutely no sign of a vote for well over a year, at least, and that’s only *IF* Westminster agrees. The key word is “imminent”.
“But what do you say about Craig Murray’s view that a referendum is NOT the way to gain independence? That the normal way is a majority vote for independence in a democratic body and/or a demonstration of the views of a majority through civic bodies such as a Constitutional Convention?”
I’ve previously said that Craig made a pretty compelling argument in that article, although UDI is a pretty last-resort tactic. The problem with it is (a) that it’d need much more sustained polling to demonstrate that it was actually the will of the people, and more importantly (b) whether it would work or not, the current SNP leadership won’t do it in a million years. So until we get rid of them it’s a totally moot point.
A lost referendum is worse than no referendum. Nicola rightly waiting on polling of around 60%.
“Nicola rightly waiting on polling of around 60%.”
Jesus. She isn’t waiting on anything. SHE DOESN’T HAVE THE POWER TO CALL A REFERENDUM.
60% polling will give her the power.
“60% polling will give her the power.”
No it fucking won’t. Don’t be stupid. That’s not how law works.
That’s how democracy works.
“That’s how democracy works.”
No, it isn’t. Democracy has specified structures, it does not operate by opinion poll.
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
“do a deal with the tories??? what could go wrong?”
We could miss the chance and vote for an election in which they won a huge majority
except the snp didnt vote for the 2019 election.
“except the snp didnt vote for the 2019 election.”
Oh fuck off. They demanded it for weeks on end and then abstained in a sulk because they wanted it three days earlier. Didn’t even have the balls to take responsibility.
Does any of the information from these websites ever feed back down to Bute House,,, or is Sturgeon above all of that???
If you are reading this Nicola, I will never put another penny into the SNP coffers ever again.
I will never campaign ever again for the SNP.
And will probably never vote for the SNP ever again,,,as long as you are at the helm.
UDI is a pretty last-resort tactic. The problem with it is (a) that it’d need much more sustained polling to demonstrate that it was actually the will of the people, and more importantly (b) whether it would work or not, the current SNP leadership won’t do it in a million years. So until we get rid of them it’s a totally moot point.
so if we replace the snp and we dont have much more sustained polling
what then?
“so if we replace the snp and we dont have much more sustained polling
what then?”
Then it wouldn’t work.
@Andrew Orr says:
1 September, 2020 at 5:40 pm
“That’s how democracy works.”
No it doesn’t. If you decide to use that argument then the easy counter is “you had a democratic vote in 2014.”
Boris’s personal ratings collapsed after someone went for any eye test. He’s still there. No General Election.
No, 51% is how democracy works
“No, 51% is how democracy works”
So how come we’re not independent?
Sturgeon isn’t a leader, like Salmond. She doesn’t have his vision or courage or brains. She’s an administrator with Scottish cringe built in. She genuinely believes we are too wee too poor too stupid, but she enjoys being the regional manager.
Wasted years.
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
“except the snp didnt vote for the 2019 election.”
They demanded it for weeks on end and then abstained
so they didnt vote for it as you claimed. i know very well the shenanigans that went on in the run up to the vote, but 11 snp mps voted with labour rebels 40 years ago and brought down callaghan and have been blame ever since
indeed, jo swinson accused the snp of voting with the tories too because the reality didnt fit her narrative either
“so they didnt vote for it as you claimed”
No, I said “we”. I’m not in the SNP. I meant collectively.
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
“so if we replace the snp and we dont have much more sustained polling
what then?”
Then it wouldn’t work.
———-
so your plan is, replace the snp, win 60% in an election/poll then declare UDI?
when did the snp win 51% in an election on a mandate for indy?
NS has no intention of getting indyref2 unless it is with the intent of losing it. Personally I don’t want her anywhere near the SNP should we ever have another referendum. In the last 6 years I can hardly think of a single argument they have made for independence. Instead their entire strategy has been to hope the shambles of brexit will somehow magically make the arguments for them.
The political atmosphere in 2014 was electric. It was palpable, exciting, and invigorating. That was the first time I could ever come close to saying that my whole life witnessing politics in Scotland. In 6 years NS has sucked the fucking life out of all of that and now we are flatter than a witch’s tit. She has totally demoralized the movement, stabbed Salmond in the back and repopulated the snp with woke twats who just happen to support all the toxic woke pish she believes in. What she has done to the snp is a scandal. Who the fuck does she actually think she is. Selfish beyond belief.
“Reverend Campbell. Here are the queen’s terms. Lead this army off the web and she will give you a draft Bill, offering a referendum sometime, provided something doesn’t happen in the meantime, provided you agree to play nice”.
Our local SNP political education officer has resigned as they do not like the current travel of the party. THis person was a heart & soul activist, all her life, like her whole family. Their hearts must be broken to do this.
My sister met the partner of a former MP candidate and she too confided that she feels like resigning from the party.
If voter apathy and more, activists’ disillusionment, and worse, antipathy, consolidates & builds, then the opposition might be able to form a unionist block and oust the SNP. I almost wish it, as then we would at least be rid of Sturgeon and Lesley Evans.
Scotland will have lost any hope of independence for another half decade but with Sturgeon at the helm. we already have lost all hope of a second Indy vote within the same time frame.
All Sturgeon did today was throw the dogs a bone. Thing is; that bone has become smaller each year and the ‘dogs’ are getting more hungry and more angry.
Anyone recall ‘Game of Thrones’ Lord Bolton’s sticky end? Bolton arrogantly assumes, ‘My hounds would never harm me. They are my loyal beasts’.
‘They were’, says Sansa, ‘but you haven’t fed them in seven days & now they’re starving.’
@leither
My point exactly. Current polls are snaw on a dyke in the summer. I don’t feel Indy, I don’t see Indy and I see this SNP more interested in their jobs and future jobs for their appointed accolades. They have trashed the Indy movement. I am also as furious as Stu I expected this outcome. In history one nation parties never serve the interest of the people but serve their own interests.
Always coming, never arriving.
I feel like Bill Murray rehearsing for Groundhog Day.
Becoming an expert at it.
Surprisingly I don’t give a flying Duck
Been pushing when ever I get the opportunity even fell out with family spent countless hours and money only to realise this Independence game has been quite the little earner for lots of people , if we ever managed to achieve a independent Country all these persuasive people would be out of a job , Now exactly how hard would I work knowing that my efforts were going to see me and my family Ducked and out of work mm let me think about that one ,
Giving up , I ducking surrender have had enough arguments and attempting to persuade people that it’s just over the horizon Just round the corner , within reach ,waited up into the small hours for results scrolling through percentage margins in eager anticipation , only to realise the ones at the front leading the charge are comfortably settled in and are playing ducking games,
This pointless excercise is just that , pointless instead of all hands to the pumps and a joint effort we have this cumbersome unwielding giant that’s lost its way and probably it’s purpose so best of luck I have more pressing issues to deal with and arse wipes who play games ain’t one of them and by Duck the current management at Bute House is full of the Duckers .
Rentokills got a job on their hands over there I wish them well .
Same as the wokeists and careerists she encourages, Sturgeon pays nothing but occassional lip service to independence.
She’s a notionalist, not a nationalist.
” The longer the delay, the likelier it is that our powers of self determination will be as restricted by Brussels as they have been by London.”
Brunswickian.
The longer the delay the more likely that Westminster will subdue Holyrood and roll back devolution and ergo independence. However, a no deal between Westminster and Brussels shouldn’t see the EU show hostility towards Scotland, after all we voted 62% to stay in the EU. If anything I think after Johnsons no deal Brexit, the EU might openly become more sympathetic to our cause.
The problem is will Holyrood still be able to hold an indyref, and more importantly will there be a SNP government willing to push for it.
The only hope I see forward is for the party grass roots to stand up and demand that the SNP manifesto is to hold an Indyref2 as soon as possible after the Holyrood Election next year.
Which I think is exactly why the SNP High Heid Yins cancelled all conferences this year, as they knew they were going to be rumbled, and anticipated the common members’ (the mugs who gave them their cosy seat and pension) back-lash.
As short a time ago as 2015, the Labour Party ruled Scotland as an unassailable monolith.
Sturgeon and her cabalistic coterie should remember that we, The People, can get rid of her just as easily as we got rid of them, and in as short a time.
Supposedly there’s a framed print on the wall in the Drawing Room at Bute House:
…KEEP CALM
………AND
THROW THEM
……A BONE
She wont pull the indy trigger unless her brit nat controllers allow her.
Frankly, I’m wondering if this is a strategy, or just a knee jerk reaction to this morning’s revelation that an Independence vote “isn’t on the agenda”.
“Oh shite! That news about no vote on the agenda is going down like a bucket of cold sick. Quick! Get “something” Indy back on the agenda FFS! Anything! Just get it announced on the BBC before those bloody Yessers light their bonfires and start their revolution…”
“Ahem… the eh, timing of an em, err…. referendum will be published, err…. em…. next year… maybe.”…Phew!
It’s like something straight out of Yes Minister.
Still, it’s proof of sorts that at least somebody is awake, looking out the window at Bute House and periodically checking the rage barometer….
Less than four months left until the dust settles on Scotland’s unconstitutional subjugation, and the SNP needs another 6 months until next Spring to knock together a draft timetable for maybe doing something later… possibly…
Tam the Bam says:
1 September, 2020 at 2:57 pm
BOOM!!!! Nicola just shot your goose (check out all the egg-_splattered faces!)
Steady now Tam the Bam. If I didn’t know it was you, I might have suspected that outburst came from a rash young Wokist’s premature annunciation.
Sturgeon reimposed visiting restrictions in Glasgow. The end game for her. Just go! She has lost the plot! Daily platforms has encouraged her to think she has sovereignty over the Scottish people. I am getting too angry see you lot tomorrow. Time for a relaxing beer.
Just realised I posted this comment on the wrong page…
.
A plan y’say?
Howsabout the one put forward by a number of contributors here months ago?
A vote of no confidence in the First Minister. She resigns. The SNP and Greens vote against all candidates put forward by the unionist parties, forcing an election.
In the manifestos of the SNP and Greens, it is stated that if pro-indy parties achieve a majority of MSPs and over 50% of the total vote, constituencies and regions, then that is a mandate to declare the Treaty of Union broken, independence to follow.
Could all be done before the end of the year but, as has become obvious, independence is not the priority of the ruling party.
Exactly, they will grant her indyref2 when they decide the time is right for her to throw it.
Lol, don’t you have a block button? (smiley face with tears)
“Sturgeon reimposed visiting restrictions in Glasgow. The end game for her. Just go! She has lost the plot!”
Tannadice Boy.
Although I don’t agree with Sturgeon on her approach to independence, or lack of it to be more precise. I do agree with her approach to try and curb the rising cases of Covid-19 in Glasgow and two other council areas with a surge in cases. To not act now would be foolish.
top choon choice; also acceptable would have been
“how soon is now”
and
“I want the one I can’t have”
panini are issuing an album for nicola to keep her mandates in
I am still waiting for willie pettigrew, motherwell, 1978
– once I complete it, I send it off for a prize, and also entry into a draw for
free tickets to the 1978 world cup
don’t tread on my dreams …
One_Scot 6.54pm
Who would you block one Scot???
I hope it’s Capella and Liether.
What a pair they two are.
In total denial of reality.
Totally Gutted!
We are to be dragged out screening from the EU in January
We are to be stripped of all worthwhile devolved powers immediately after.
We have an established majority of over 50% for independence.
All to be ignored and promises made by SNP broken.
They will write another paper and make promises for another year.
It’s just another background noise noticed by few above a raging wave of calls for freedom.
Ally McCloud had as much chance of leading us to world cup glory as Nicola Sturgeon has of leading us to Independence.
And yet we fell for their bullshit, hook, line and sinker.
We never learn.
It does come across as a token announcement to talk about Independence again to quell dissent. Are they telling the Civil Service one thing and the UK Govt another?
I so want to believe there is a real commitment to get us ready to go but fool me once and all that.
This move reeks of desperation from Nicola. An attempt to keep the wolves from the door for another few months. I thought Corona Virus and it’s financial implications needed to pass before a referendum would be called? Just more smoke and mirrors which the cult of Nicola will only be too eager to swallow unfortunately.
National Vow Day
The reaffirmation of a people’s referendum next year has become the SNP executive’s equivalent of the unionist ‘Vow’, only far crueller- it gets promised *every* year.
Stan Broadwood,
That’s pretty unfair. Allie McLeod did really try.
Just unsubscribed from another pro indy site. I really hadn’t realised just how ingrained the “cult of Nicola” was in some people and I can’t bear to read any more of their deluded optimism. “She has a plan”, “She’s doing the right thing” “She’s building support” and of course us lot over at wings are just spouting vile or are doing the unionists job for them. I’d rather read the truth than some wishy washy faint hope for something in the far off never, never.
Effijy says:
Totally Gutted!
We are to be dragged out screening
lol, WOVS cries, i’ll skween an skween an skween, so ah wull
The architect of the unionist “vow” was given paid employment by the SNP SG.
Says it all really.
OT but I’ve just read Iain Macwhirter’s
link to iainmacwhirter.wordpress.com
And noticed the following:
‘There has long been an open cheque book for anyone willing to give the press salacious details about his private life.’
And realise that I’ve never really asked myself who got the first lot of money from the Daily Record’?
Socrates MacSporran says:
Stan Broadwood, Craig Murray
Ally MacLeod was the last but one Scottish leader to give Scotland hope and positive leadership
huh, you dont mean……….rory the lion (O
SilverDarling says:
fool me once and all that.
hasnt been difficult
Leaders who don’t listen to their people eventually preside over a following who have nothing to say for themselves.
um
did anyone see todays holyrood review/meeting with the civil service trade unionists ?
@Leither,
You sound like Schrodingers cat!!
@Craig Murray says:
1 September, 2020 at 7:21 pm
“That’s pretty unfair. Allie McLeod did really try.”
And we had to sing that bloody song of Andy Cameron’s in music at school…
It’s not happening,is it?
The slaughter of the care home residents and hospital patients caused by the Covid-19 infected being moved around smitting others is probably culpable homicide.
How anybody can vote for the SNP in Scotland or the Tories in England after this is beyond me.
The SNP under Nicola are more establishment than the Establishment. Another sign of their complete corruption. I’d post that picture of her snuggling deep with Alastair Campbell if I knew how,
Whats she ever done that was ever considered anti establishment. She sucks their dick at every foreign policy opportunity. Salmond was the polar opposite. I fucking hate the SNP under her. Which is a problem as I am rather keen on independence.
Has she ever taken any geopolitical stance the establishment would disagree with? Sounds like the Tony blair character in the Ghost novel. She ain’t working for us and you really don’t want her in charge of our last chance if that’s what it is.
BUT COVID!!
IndyRef2 would be happening this week if not for COVID!
In June 2016 Sturgeon started her plan. And it would’ve come to fruition just over four years later, if not for COVID’s appearance in February 2020…..
Jesus, this space has become a swamp of negativity and anger.
I understand some of it.
So near, and yet so far of our goal.
Divide, and rule.
Forget this at your peril.
For all real Scots here and there, do you really want to be divided and down precisely at the period when you need strength and trust to bring back true democracy to your country?
Choose.
Oh, and no point in attacking me, these are my sentiments.
Share your own, by all means but don’t be hateful.
Enjoyed hearing The Smiths again in that one, though Yer Man seems to have gone over to the Farage Side.
So where are we, Strangeways or Cheetham Hill? Probably both and you can add Up Gove Creek to the mix.
To those attacking Stuart Campbell and Craig Murray for their
lack of belief in Nicola Sturgeon and for their articles on the AS affair, ask yourself why they would irretrievably stake their credibility were they not convinced of their position and with proof to match?
A high-wire act without a safety net is surely professional suicide, innit?
And I know the FM can only deal with one crisis at a time but Poland conducted a presidential election about two months ago without much difficulty.
In the past four years what detailed and credible plans have been advanced on issues like sovereignty, currency, the economy, international relations und so weiter?
All that time spent undemocratically saving England from itself instead of using Brexit as the Great Wedge to finally smash this accursed, asymmetric union.
O/T: Tennis. US Open.
Mercurial Murray misses many makeables but manages somehow to scramble a 3rd set tie-break win to continue the match.
4th Set: Geez! tough watch… 🙁
@leither
I have lots of company if we are being fooled. A whole bunch of people keep voting for them in the hope that something will come of it.
You have a familiar posting voice. On a wee visit from WGD?
Now that Sturgeon has mentioned independence, to allay any fears among the independence faithful, which stands at around 55% she should announce at the very least a preliminary date as to when the referendum might happen.
Absolutely disgraceful decision taken by the incompetent fear mongering Scottish government today with these new restrictions about visiting other households in Glasgow.
So I can go into a crowded shop, have a drink in a pub with a bunch of people, go out for something to eat and children can go to school but apparently I can’t visit someones house because that is far too dangerous? What is this nutcase on? Does she actually believe that anyone ever obeyed that rule in the first place?
I don’t give a shit about the “cases”, when everyone that is found is perfectly fine. How many new hospitalizations and deaths? they have been banging on about this “second wave” for a month now so you would think that by now we would see that reflected in hospitalizations and death stats, we haven’t. The truth is that this virus doesn’t live up to all the hype and isn’t particularly deadly, it in no way justifies these insane measures.
I’m not surprised that nicola wants to wait until after the economic fallout has been dealt with to call a referendum (which will take many years given the scale of the economic carnage) considering the risk averse nature of the Scottish people.
Craig Murray 7 21pm
True,,,the Tartan Army adventure was also good while it lasted.
I remember going to Liverpool to watch Scotland gub Wales.
And all the home internationals in between then and the 78 World Cup.
Ally really had us believing we could go to Argentina and win the World Cup.
So you are right,,, there is no comparison to be made between Ally and Sturgeon.
If there is any reason for AS to re-enter politics it has to be save his legacy. He handed the keys to NS. Don’t let that be your legacy.
Why did the SNP government not fight to keep Scotland in Europe, over four years and no demand for Scotland’s rights something’s far wrong, looks like it’s got to be a new party for the list votes then if nothing happens vote for the new party next time round, everybody’s getting older looks like their playing for time, probably been got at.
Bipod = Bampot.
Sorry, I did say I didn’t want to get personal, there I’ve gone and done it already.
I believe the Medics have a fair bit of input regarding lockdowns etc.
I’d rather trust them than you.
Again, not personal.
My sister’s family live in the Glasgow area; their kids can’t meet up indoors for a bit.
And their folks do the same.
Christ, small sacrifice to make for a week or two, we did 3 months so thousands didn’t perish earlier, cmon you remember..
I’m leaving it to the professionals, cos I don’t know who else to trust.
Smile!
Bipod. I suspect the deadly strain of Covid is over. What we seem to have now is a less potent strain.
Hence no deaths but loads of cases. It’s only fear that is driving the legislation,not statistical risk.
So it seems to have changed and the science is working on possibility of risk.
I began to hear alarm bells ringing when all those people packed themselves into that large Glasgow venue for her Evita-style coronation reception. Her subsequent, thoroughly unnecessary but heavily publicized, appearances in London only increased my suspicions regarding her motives. Scottish independence, I was forced to deduce, wasn’t amongst them.
I dont expect Alex to come back and take us to indyref2. The man has put in a shift.
But he did hand the keys to the whole independence movement to this psycho bitch who attempted to send him to jail.
So yeah.. he does need to come back and sort that shit out.
Maybe not leave his entire legacy with a ("Tractor" - Ed).
As you will well know, Rev, George Orwell hated the Scots. I love the fact he wrote 1984, his finest work, on Jura…and then died. It’s like the most poetic end somebody could have, knowing he couldn’t do any better, in anyplace better. 🙂
O/T Tennis update:
Moribund Murray staggers to save a match point and then manages yet another tie-break winner in 4th set.
2-2
Game on!
Nishioka loses the plot and unsportingly evokes help from all the Japanese deities as he cannot believe it has come to this. 🙂
Andy will be fortunate to pull this off. He’s knackered. 🙁
Big Jock says: 1 September, 2020 at 8:43 pm
I recall reading that another explanation of the rise of cases is linked to the rise in testing. In short, the more testing the more cases reported.
As I mentioned in previous posts, the handling of the pandemic will move for a health based approach to a risk management one. That is going to involve discovering and predicting future trends and is seen by the need for the lockdown in the Glasgow area.
I do hope that with this risk based approach that with the data they collect, they are able to identify the individual idiots who repeatedly break the sensible precautions that everybody do because they think they are smarter than everybody else and take the appropriate action against them rather than the blunt instrument of collective action with full lock-downs that we have seen.
You can call this dictatorial but the sooner everybody follows the rules so we can get the transmission levels down to a manageable level and get back to some semblance of normality. Without that, we are just going to stuck in the same loop for who knows how long.
@WRYC: he actually wrote part of 1984 in Hairmyres hospital, East Kilbride.
Think there used to be a memorial in the old Ward 2 to him there at one time. It was a TB hospital.
‘The problem with it is (a) that it’d need much more sustained polling to demonstrate that it was actually the will of the people’
If they’re in for the next Holyrood term and brexit bites hard then you never know, they might get it.
‘You sound like Schrodingers cat!!’
Well he did say he was born in leith I think.
The Iain MacWhirter article was good but he’s said the same thing before in support of Salmond’s previous good reputation. If papers were all over Salmond as he says, and for all those years too, that together with the fact that all complaints came from a small segment of the party within Holyrood, together with the fact he was acquitted of all charges means I am sickened when I hear folk say now there’s no way back for him.
On leaving SNP, I asked if they knew how many members they still had.
With their transparency, supposedly unlike the red or blue Tories, I thought they would say.
It seems they are not transparent now so I presume members have been leaving in droves.
Sarah: how do you or Andrew Tickell, or anyone else, for that matter, know that a case lodged with the UN on the breaching of the Treaty by England-as-the-UK wouldn’t work? It has never been tried.
We have tried a referendum and that didn’t work, but everyone carried on clamouring for another one. We have not tried an election win either, that had immediate independence as its core policy, in the Manifesto.
No one could argue that it would be UDI because they would know what they were voting for. This is how it will have to be done – either via the Treaty or from an election – and leaving no room for the Westminster apologists to manoeuvre.
They are already deeply in breach of the Treaty, they are in breach of the UN Charter and they are in breach of any universal understanding of democracy by trying to block our right to independence. This isn’t spurious guff – they are actually in breach of international law.
Have you heard one feckin person in the SNP say so? No. Too much like the truth, and we all know how much the truth hurts when it comes to independence, especially for core NO voters. I really do believe that they haven’t a clue. They, the SG, have stated to the ForWomen Scotland campaign group that they see no contradictions between the GRA reform and existing legislation. What? What? They are either wilfully blind or cowardly, or both – on independence and on women’s sex-based rights.
@ leither at 6.00
Pedantry alert
You appear to be confusing
a) the Labour MPs who supported the Cunningham amendment
(there were 34, I think – Hansard does not list party : link to api.parliament.uk – record of vote is a long way down!)
and
b) the actual vote of confidence (link to en.wikipedia.org) in which no Labour MPs broke the whip, not surprisingly.
There was no point at which the 11 SNP MPs and the Labour rebels were on the same side.
I’m just totally fucked off by the whole thing with the holy grail within our grasp and all the smoke and mirrors being deployed. The party I,ve been a member for 25 years and voted for 40 is not the party I recognise any longer. Just what do we do ?
I have been stewing on this problem for a long while.
I conclude that it is better to raze the house and rebuild than save the house.
25% new SNP MPs… just in this cycle. Forget about it…
It is hopelessly and irreversibly infested with cunts.
They were on a mission from one minute past No.
They set out to destroy Salmond 1 minute past Brexit.
No way he could be left standing. Can you imagine the damage he would have done this last 6 years versus Surgeon. She has not landed a single blow.
Boak.
Is it TIME to introduce this threat that I put forward in an earlier post, any SENSIBLE suggestions would be considered printed off signed and sent to NS,my MSP and MP
This Is Really Taking Back Control
A Declaration And Statement Of Intent
This declaration is addressed to Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP party
It is with reluctance that I
Address
hereby declare that I and my extended family and friends will NOT vote for the SNP in any forthcoming elections unless and
until Nicola Sturgeon or any subsequent leader of the SNP removes the GRA Bill and the Hate Crime Bill proposals until
independence where they can be debated and voted on by Scottish citizens only , and also states categorically and in writing , that all future Scottish and UK parliamentary elections which the SNP participates in will be fought and contested on the basis , that it is a plebiscite that if the SNP are elected to power with a majority as the Scottish
Government they will immediately suspend the treaty of union and negotiate the disbursement of all assets and debts
A referendum will also be held within 2 years by the Scottish Government to ratify the decision taken by the electorate where an opportunity will also be available to vote for a re negotiation of a NEW treaty of union if voters indicate that that would be a preference for the majority of voters
Signed
Just got this update from Martin Keatings. I am not on Twitter – got kicked off for probably offending somebody somehow somewhere in the ether, and I can’t be bothered sneaking back on, but…
‘Update on Peoples Action on Section 30
You will all recall the massive storm during the fundraiser that sent the case to number 1 on the trending twitter list? Well, why lose that momentum?
Tomorrow – We want to mobilise the entire movement to talk about their reasons for wanting independence.
Please read carefully
We have a small favour to ask.
Tomorrow (2nd September 2020) at 8pm exactly, we ask that you send out a post or tweet on social media which includes the hashtag #IMYesBecause and the reasons for why you believe Scotland should be an independent country.
Please send them out like you would any other post or tweet on your social media profile and keep the momentum going. Let’s see if we can get it to trend.
Many thanks
Martin’
Someone said that Orwell hated Scots. Maybe – but I am wondering what that is based on. Any substantial proof?
My memory may be wrong, but I think, although he was born and bred in England, he had Scottish forebears (and quite recent ones at that). His real name was Eric Blair.
Can I just type…
It’s good to see so many “old time’ commenters, like from 5/6 years ago, commenting again.
Yooz ken wha yi are…
All it would have taken to convince the people left dangling over ‘yet another’ mandate, would have been to put a set timeline forward.
Ie Election fought foremostly on THE issue, with a confirmation sought from the electorate within, say 6 months.
18th Sept 21. Elections to the independent parliament in the interim period.
Witterings about “within the lifetime ” aren’t going to be enough.
‘Tinto Chiel says:
1 September, 2020 at 9:18 pm
@WRYC: he actually wrote part of 1984 in Hairmyres hospital, East Kilbride.’
Was not aware of that, fair enough, thanks for that. I still think he is suspect, and 1984 is more of a manifesto than a work of (pre)science f(r)iction. After all, he worked for the Censorship Department for the Ministry of Information during WWII. I think he got a glimpse of some long-term English governmental goals during that era. But I suppose he also helped to shape and inspire them in others as well, with 1984. So which came first, the book or the censorship department? An insoluble paradox, really.
@Pete Barton
You mean the medics that have been consistently wrong throughout this crisis? From professor pantsdown’s dodgy models, to sending ill and infectious old folks in hospitals into care homes (you know to the place where all the people who are actually vulnerable are) and to the face mask mandate which they themselves admit has very little scientific evidence to back it. Oh and do you remember the plan for a covid free Scotland that nicola and her advisors were going on about the other month? Yeah that was quitely dropped when it became clear just how ridiculous and futile it was.
The government says that it is just following the “science”, but what they are really doing is just listening to a few hysterical scientists while completely ignoring the many other experts who disagree with their position.
Its not a small sacrifice. This lockdown has been going on for 5 months now because it didn’t really end. How much longer do we need to put up with this economic destruction and theft of our liberties when the virus has only killed 2 people in the past 2 months. You could tell that nicola was enjoying her emergency broadcast this evening, if you didn’t know anything about this “crisis” you could be forgiven for thinking we were being invaded, but no it was just because 100 people might (pcr tests are very unreliable) have the virus and are completely fine.
O/T: Tennis
Nishioka breaks the Murray serve to go 3-2 in the last set.
Murray breaks back immediately for 3-3
Murray slams in two aces to go 3-4 up.
Nishioka’s resolve melts like an ice cream in the sun
Murray wins 4-6 in the 5th and the Match. 🙂
Wasn’t top drawer stuff but it was exciting and tense.
Well done Murray cheered me up on a shitty day.
A bit late to the song title party but y’all are absolute amateurs when it comes to picking songs from The Smiths to suit the moment,
link to genius.com
’nuff said.
Callmedave
What a fighter Andy Murray is. Winning from two sets down.
He was close to being “that Scottish player” again, now, like all Scotland’s assets he is claimed by the U.K. press as British.
@WRYC: I only discovered that detail while stuck there for 12 days in 1986 so you’re welcome. Later I discovered a friend who was an EKDC employee had spent some time ensuring he was memorialised there. I’m not sure about his attitude to us but you can certainly read 1984 as an anti-BBC tract as much as an anti-communist one. He came aware of the BBC’s poisonous propaganda during the war.
I wouldn’t worry by 2024 it may be PM Starmer and one of his first appointments will be Baroness Sturgeon for services to Scotland and the Union, she knows exactly how to play the Nationalists while doing sod all about independence and keeping her comfortable residence at Bute House and hefty salary
How aboot These Things Take Time in the Smiths/SNP mash-up stakes?
It’s so peaceful without Sturgeon’s two Jack Russells to deal with.
Capella and Cat,,, you won’t be missed.
Away and Hug the Dug.
You are all well suited to each other.
All Flat Earthers.
All in denial of what Sturgeon really stands for.
Sturgeon is relying on your vote,,,and your money.
It’s SIR Andy Murray to you lessers.
Bow your head when you talk of Sir Andy,,,, bow!!!
You dirty low life bastards.
We are so privileged to have a Scot as a Sir.
We are not worthy.
Sir Andrew climbing the slimy english establishment pole so he can be “one of them”.
Why did Murray accept this Knighthood???
Another Scot who was bought and sold for english gold.
Andrew Orr 60% is a figure that was skunk onto the internet by the BBC anyone betting on it will lose.
Stan @10:31
Probably for the first time I agree with you Stan my thoughts exactly
Again just for clarity yep said exactly how I am feeling right now
Oh Shit I said I was gonna give this Independence bit up guess I lasted as long as me stopping smoking oh well never mind
Big Jock what we are seeing with increased positive testing is herd immunity
And Stan,
Andy Murray stuck his neck out before the 2014 referendum, and made it clear he was for Scottish independence. Quote. “Let’s go for it”. and the English press gave him a roasting. You and I are not at any risk of receiving that sort of abuse for expressing our opinions and he could have kept quiet if he was not sincere.
Some on here, maybe you Stan, criticise him for appearing in the GB team in the Olympics. What would any athlete do if there was no alternative to appearing in the greatest sports festival on earth? There was no Scottish team, mores the pity.
I suggest that you and I would have also taken the chance to get a shot at being the best in the world, given the chance.
Whatever you say he is the greatest ever Scottish athlete and is always ready to point out that he is “Scottish not English.” Not always an easy stand to take in the English heartland.
The vote, in which ever medium (Referendum, GE and/or HE), the vote, is the last bit of the puzzle, the icing on the cake, the tip of the iceberg, the last hurdle in a very long race.
The mountain to climb, the work to be done, the ground to be covered, the battle grounds on land, sea and air… is in the campaign – and it is us, all of us, including the NS fans, who will do the campaigning. That is where we win – then vote becomes almost a formality.
And here’s the thing – the campaign belongs to us, not Alex, not NS, not the SNP. Us.
We have been good little soldiers, and psychologically it was easier and more re-assuring to let the leader of some party (for to be sure, its their job, they’re bound to be the experts, don’t you know), to put our faith in them, that they would guide the way.
But still – the campaign belongs to us.
If you think back to 2013/14 – even under Alex – the SNP led party for YES was pretty dire. They produced the White Paper (and I don’t know anyone who read it) while the grass roots – you guys here – produced and delivered the WBB.
We are out of EU at the end of the year – and with it we lose our NHS and our Parliament.
We are hindered (but not as much as some would have us believe) from our greatest strength of face to face campaigning due to Covid.
We must campaign now, and we must cover the ground needed to win Indy.
What is missing is a Campaign Strategy.
Here’s one I made earlier.
We can do so much better than Boris. Believe in Scotland, Believe in You.
For those who still have faith in NS – a May election for HE – is less than 9 months away. And due to Covid we have one hand tied behind our back compared to normal.
I would think all Yes and SNP supporters/management would be delighted if the public re start the campaign for Indy. I would think that if they want re- elected they would be keen to start campaigning for HE about now, given the circumstances.
An unofficial campaign has the advantage of not needing anyone to produce receipts.
An unofficial campaign has the advantage of ‘just getting on with it’, until the question of whether NS is inept or corrupt, or has some amazing extra special secret plan, becomes incidental and irrelevant.
An unofficial campaign would give people hope, and something to achieve. An unofficial campaign is now a necessity. We have to win.
Brian Doonthetoon wrote on 1 September, 2020 at 6:49 pm: “In the manifestos of the SNP and Greens, it is stated that if pro-indy parties achieve a majority of MSPs and over 50% of the total vote, constituencies and regions, then that is a mandate to declare the Treaty of Union broken, independence to follow.”
I don’t see any quotes? You’re normally dead-on the money with your posts but this is the first I’ve heard of this. Do you have any quoted pieces as I’d love to see them because that, if accurate, is pretty strong stuff? I’d like some more ammo to add to my arsenal and quotes of that nature are as good as it gets.
Daisy Walker 11.09pm
Why do I get the instinctive feeling to tell you to ,”Go and Get Fucked”?
Can’t remember who said it. But I agree. I lost all respect for Murray when he accepted that knighthood.
No true Scot would be a knight of the English realm.
Remember this is the same Murray that spent his youth telling everyone he wasn’t British. Well he is British now!
It’s getting as bad as the Daily Express in here, with some of the comments.
Where’s Schrödinger’s Cat? He usually talks some sense.
How dare the English media attack Murray when he supported independence!
They should have asked why England hasn’t given control of its economy to another country
Just like Scotland has had too.
Andy should have reminded them that the English based lawn tennis association only gave
Scots a fraction of the development grants they were entitled too.
How Andy had to go to Spain for top class training and I’m sure you all
Remember the Murray Brothers scored all the points that put Britain in the
Davis cup final only for BBC Commentator Sue Barker to say how excited she
Was to see England in the final?
@WhoRattledYourCage says:
1 September, 2020 at 9:44 pm
“Tomorrow (2nd September 2020) at 8pm exactly, we ask that you send out a post or tweet on social media which includes the hashtag #IMYesBecause and the reasons for why you believe Scotland should be an independent country.”
I’ll put money on that a fight will break out between the woke brigade and the Nicola fanatics (Crazy 88’s?) 🙂
STAN BROADWOOD your pure mental man.
If you genuinely believe what you are saying in language calculated to anger those of us who are not anti English then please do what you recommended to Daisy.
If you are a paid agent provocateur then lie on your back and think of England as you do it.
Independence is normal but talking shunt is not.
Stoker, I think that BDTT was suggesting that the SNP and SG should put that in their election manifestos, not that they already had.
@ Stoker at 11.20
Now that I’ve decided to presumptuously answer your question in his stead, no doubt Brian will do so too!
But in case he doesn’t – the bit you’ve queried is part of his plan; not something that exists currently.
@ susanXX
I knew I’d cross-post with someone!!
@ Daisy Walker: you are right. We should be campaigning and we should not rely on a political party to “lead”. They are just our means of enacting our will.
Eh Petra
I know your reading this because you seem fixated with comments on Wings
A wee question when did the wee ginger dugs blog become Petras Rant Against Wings blog ?
Maybe it’s too confining there , you could start your own one and talk directly to your pals , know the wee Clique you have gathered around you , Nice little earner this Independence lark maybe finance your lifestyle you just have to convince enough mugs to send you money and post a few sarcastic remarks every so often and let the mugs keep it going what’s not to like eh .
Clever tactics by NS and her circle.
If she really means it, it puts them in control of the timetable.
If she doesn’t, it might put people off giving their support to an indy list party for the crucial months leading up to the election and buys her another term to push a fully woke agenda.
Leslie Ross says:
2 September, 2020 at 12:06 am
“Clever tactics by NS and her circle.”
I’d say you are 100% correct. The SNP leadership do not for one minute want to lose control of the independence narrative.
Famous15
Are you on a ten minute tea break from the Ginger Dog???
Better hurry up and get back or you’ll be posted as missing.
PK doesn’t like his sheep to wonder too far from the pen.
Re Orwell
He did appear to have a dislike of Scots. It seems to have dated back to his time in the Burma police when he had acquired a particular dislike of the Scots he encountered in that colonial situation. He, himself, loathed being in the situation of policing the population on behalf of the British Empire.
(It is understandable I’m afraid, that he should have despised the Scots in the colonial administration as they would often be the type who would serve the British Empire, being particularly servile to their colonial masters and at the same time, be even more supercilious towards the native population. It’s an irony, often observed, that those who are themselves colonised can in turn be oppressors of others.) Orwell’s was also the contempt that the English often expressed towards the upwardly mobile Scot. Remember Dr. Johnson and his comment “The noblest prospect which a Scotchman ever sees, is the high road that leads him to England.”?
However, during his wartime service it appears that he had something to do with having Hugh MacDiarmiad put on a list ‘to be observed’. However, it might also have had to do with MacDiarmaid being a communist and by that time – due to his service in the Spanish Civil War – Orwell detested communists.
I have often speculated in my own mind, that had Orwell lived on to old age, he might have made that now-familiar journey to the right. Anyway, we’ll never know. Like all humans, Orwell was complex & mysterious & their motivations can be cloudy & contradictory – even those of a great writer.
For everyone else, Orwell’s distaste for the Scots is just a footnote.
The Plan , The Plan
Stop Press After 6 Years I have heard that there is actually a Plan cast in Stone and it’s forever to be referred to as the PLAN
The PLAN will travel throughout the land and be known as the PLANS great journey
This PLAN will be revered by the chosen ones as the last testament it will be worshipped by all believers and presented to those cretinous unbelievers on Wings as the answer to all their questions , questions like who framed Alex , Why we had to silence Craig, and who stymied the crowdfunded case against HM Government .
All Questions will be answered with the PLAN coming soon to a Bullshit conference near you , as this will be a Virtual Conference we really can’t have any questions. we hope to resume normal service once we get your vote and our pensions are guaranteed , next Mug .
@susanXX & crazycat
Thanks for explanation! Understood! (thumbs up) Took the “plan” part to be the vote of no confidence suggestion.
Cheers!
What a shame that the plan will not be available before next years election. Guess just got to accept that they’ll do it this time and not use the next 5 years to push through the legislation they’re sitting on.
Beaker says:
2 September, 2020 at 12:11 am
Leslie Ross says:
‘2 September, 2020 at 12:06 am
“Clever tactics by NS and her circle.”
I’d say you are 100% correct. The SNP leadership do not for one minute want to lose control of the independence narrative.’
For those who believe in NS, and for those of us who do not – lets just park that difference of opinion aside for now.
The independence narrative is us – not any party or leader – it belongs to us, and there is ground that must be covered by campaigning, and we need to do so now.
This benefits YES, this potentially benefits NS and the SNP if they are playing with a straight bat. There are no downsides.
In addition – the SNP – as an organisation and political party (even under Alex) was and is incredibly ‘lumbering’ in comparison to the YES movement when it comes to inventive and innovative campaigning – which is what is most assuredly needed now in view of Covid.
One proven method – Covid safe – is info-graghs/posters. We need Billboards (home-made is good), Car bumper and window stickers/posters, T-shirts, Mugs.
A slogan is OK (better verbally, off the cuff) but an info graphic – like the current Business for Scotland ‘Scotland the Brief’ is better – it teaches people – whether they want to know or not.
And we need some rallying dates to ‘aim’ for.
Brexit Day III – The No Deal Disaster is one and Holyrood Election is the other.
Each of these should have messages tailored to slightly different audience – a slightly different objective.
The strand that runs through both – We can do so much better than Boris.
Remember the phrase in 2014 – ‘I dinnae like that Alex Salmond’ – this worked because it was a statement of emotion and it is very difficult to then get the conversation back onto facts. It also played the man rather than the ball.
‘We can do so much Better than Boris’ works in a similar vein and is also true. It also nullifies any recurrence of ‘better together’.
It was said, and it is true, independence for Scotland is bigger than any one party.
Justifiable criticism is at NS’s door re the lack of progress (until Covid) on Indy. But d’you know what – tough. Pick yourselves up folks – we have a country to save and a country to win.
Lets get our heads together, lets campaign for Indy and lets get the polls up to where they should be – it was never up to NS, it was always us who would have to do it, so lets get on with it.
I’ve heard it said amongst SNP membership that until polls are at 60% they won’t risk another Ref.
60% is our first target. Lets get that over the line before the end of this year.
Or we could just cry in our beer.
PS – Dear Stan, Peace and Love 😉
Daisy Walker
Flogging a dead horse springs to mind.
Daisy Walker @ 12.52
Well said Daisy….apart from that last bit, I’d save that for any poor bugger in his hoose :-).
You seem like the female commenting most and that makes you the target tonight .
The man with much names and little sense does like to bully the ladies….. but be of good cheer at least that’s no coming hame tae ye the night !
Don’t know why your concerned tbh, as independence call rises, 55% presently, 60% surely round the corner, SNP majority must be in place for full democratic effect, as that was in place for the last referendum and it was the only qualification to that referendum.
60% + is the magic number in order to have full want known and to allow other courses of action. Disruption, noncooperation, obstacles.
If that demand continues to be refused the people will take it into their own hands, is that bold enough in boldness?
If the UK government wants another Ireland, if they haven’t learned the lesion that democratic will can’t be refused, the clock ticks, democracy ticks too, the people grow impatient and disturbed by Westminster intransigence.
Something will break, and it won’t be Scotland.
The final straw won’t be political it will be our people.
To the SNP,
You were voted into power to keep us in the EU and drive for independence. Both are linked. You have done neither. You have not even tried to achieve independence, using ‘section 30’ nonsense as an excuse to do nothing. Either put up or shut up.
‘Sometime next year’ or ‘before the end of this parliament’ is to late. You know that, and despite massive elecotral success, you dither and dither and dither, seemingly oblivious to your parliamentary clout both in Scotland and Westminster. Just one more effing mandate after another, but ZERO action.
Labour took its core voters and supporters for granted and betrayed them in Scotland, and look where they are now, behind even the racist Tories in Scotland. And once the voters desserted them, it happened very, very quickly indeed. That is what awaits the SNP.
Sick of this sh*te from the current SNP ‘leader’ ship.
Daisy Walker, you say many good things – and you are right, people should get on with campaigning for independence in whatever way they prefer or can do. I don’t agree that there should be any focus on the SNP whatsoever though, their caveats and rules should not dictate what we say or do.
If it was just the case of inaction on their part, if the 60% was a true threshold, and they are just delaying things until ‘the time is right’, then people could invest time and effort serving those rules (although, the rules also say, no campaigning for independence and marches are bad and,,,)
That’s the thing – the evidence shows that the SNP are actively working AGAINST moving towards independence, and I cannot give them any benefit of any doubt at this stage, I have no doubt, that they will continue to actively hinder any progress towards independence. The people that invested the most into the SNP are the angriest, or are in denial (or agree that independence is a nice to have as long as it’s convenient and takes no effort).
Much of the support for the SNP is populism – exactly the same as the populism support for Trump or Boris, the unyielding belief that everything this one person does must be right because they claim they will deliver one thing those supporters want – and is centred on NS. It is possible we could use that populism – easier than trying to break it – IF the rest of us are realistic about it and can gain some kind of leverage to force the issue with NS. I don’t particularly want someone like her in charge of negotiating independence, but she could still be the one to trigger a referendum, and if she was just a figurehead, fine. While she’s in control were a bit scunnered. For the SNP route.
We all have different opinions on the ‘best’ way to get independence – just do all of them, and don’t slag off anyone else’s ways and methods – it can be a slow chipping away of each and every barrier in our way, different people doing different things – we don’t need it to be one BIG singular thing that happens – it can be many things, constantly applied, wearing ‘them’ down. We could do with stopping focusing on one thing (the SNP) and not be scared into inaction. We could stop relying on someone else to save us, and believe in and save ourselves – we are worth it.
The SNP is the party of devolution, the begging bowl held out to the establishment constantly now, it does nothing for our self-esteem – we are just starting easing ourselves away from the cringe, let’s not fall back into it – be confident and be sure, independence is right and proper. So whatever it takes, any leverage or influence, any convincing you can do, hundreds of little things add up,,,
David Hynds says:
2 September, 2020 at 3:10 am
“If that demand continues to be refused the people will take it into their own hands, is that bold enough in boldness?”
No w won’t. It’s not in our psyche. We’ll moan a lot and say “Ah, well. It’s aye been”.
The SNP will say and do anything in order to maintain their Indy monopoly.
Any pro-Indy group or individual not part of the SNP ‘establishment’ is classed as ‘against’ rather than ‘with’.
AOUB was generally ignored, we have an Indy march organiser languishing in gaol, pro-Indy/anti-establishment figures being dragged through the courts on trumped up charges, others dismissed and labeled cyber-nats or dissed by senior figures as being “unhelpful” as in the case of Martin Keatings, and we all know what happened to Salmond. (Rev Stu can be thankful he doesn’t reside in Scotland given the COPFS shenanigans).
It is clear that the SNP is ready to turn its guns on its own if it feels its position is threatened. A Stalinist approach to dissent which will stop at nothing, including breaching its own party rules, to ensure conformance within the rank and file as well as amongst MPs and MSPs.
NS has created a monster over which she rules with an iron fist and it isn’t something I can bring myself to support.
Hi Stoker at 11:20 pm.
Apologies. I missed out a word and comma at the start of the sentence you quoted. It should read,
“IF, in the manifestos of the SNP and Greens, it is stated that if pro-indy parties achieve a majority of MSPs and over 50% of the total vote, constituencies and regions, then that is a mandate to declare the Treaty of Union broken, independence to follow.”
My comment did start,
“A plan y’say?
Howsabout the one put forward by a number of contributors here months ago?”
Here are two mentions of it:
link to wingsoverscotland.com
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Reminder to all the Sturgeon fantasists.
A press release about indy ref 2, is not a referendum. It’s simply a publicity stunt.
You really are brainwashed if you fall for this again!
@JGedd 12.15: yes, and MacDiarmid wasn’t the only one on his list.
link to en.wikipedia.org
I suspect, as you say, he may have been beginning on the well-worn intellectual path from Left to Right. His hatred of the communists seemed to stem from their harsh treatment of his beloved anarchist POUM in the Spanish civil war but recent research suggests they were actually heavily infiltrated by Franco’s Nationalists, so maybe the “Reds” were justified in their tough behaviour.
His genius was to see into the future in his 1984 and give us all a warning about totalitarianism and doublethink.
Now is not the time. There is Covid to deal with. There is then an economy to restore.
So how does that happen then Nicola. Fully out of Europe next year, with a Scottish Parliament denuded of power, with an alternative Westminster controlled civil service being set up, with a Westminster in control of everything from fishing, to farming, to food production, to business, to trade deals which will include health care, how and when Mrs Sturgeon.
The devolution experiment is being brought to an end. We move back to pre devolution times. Indeed, with Scots Law neutered, we will have even less authority than before devolution.
Yes, one does wonder what the assumed walk in SNP majority will deliver, that is if it even gets its arrogantly assumed walk in majority.
Otherwise, Nicola Sturgeon is doing a fine job, blah, blah, blah.
In 1977 I did a project in Modern Studies about the Politicsl parties and wrote to sll for their policies and literature. I saw then only the SNP had a vision for Scotland and became a lifelong voter.
Well since 2014 its been a real eye opener and if anyone thinks this is the Party to get us Independence they are in serious need of medical help.
We can continue going round in circles listening to the same cliches or get the Independence supporters to open their eyes and form a realistic opposition and not the reincarnation of New SNP moulded into a copycat New Labour form we have now
All the mentions of “The Plan” reminded me of this piece that I captured from somewhere on the web, around 15-20 years ago.
The Plan
In the beginning, there was a plan, ?And then came the assumptions,? And the assumptions were without form, ?And the plan without substance,
And the darkness was upon the face of the workers, ?And they spoke among themselves saying, ?”It is a crock of shit and it stinks.”
And the workers went unto their Supervisors and said, ?”It is a pile of dung, and we cannot live with the smell.”
And the Supervisors went unto their Managers saying, ?”It is a container of excrement, and it is very strong, Such that none may abide by it.”
And the Managers went unto their Directors saying,?”It is a vessel of fertilizer, and none may abide by its strength.”
And the Directors spoke among themselves saying to one another,?”It contains that which aids plants growth, and it is very strong.”
And the Directors went to the Vice Presidents saying unto them,?”It promotes growth, and it is very powerful.”
And the Vice Presidents went to the President, saying unto him,
?”This new plan will actively promote the growth and vigor ?of the company with very powerful effects.”
And the President looked upon the Plan ?And saw that it was good, ?And the Plan became Policy.
And this, my friend, is how shit happens.
Simple question.
Who has changed? Is it us who support (even demand a referendum), or is it the party who has been promising us a referendum for the last four years?
All the excuses I hear about why the SNP cannot have a referendum far outnumber the stars in the sky. People make allowances for masterplans in the background, and opinion polls levels, or the right time is not now.
Everybody on every forum supports Indy and the need for a referendum, but the schism between us is how and when that will happen.
Faith in a leader is a good thing, but can also become destructive when that leader fails to deliver what they promised and were elected to do. Some clearly find it difficult to put aside that faith, and that may well be what destroys the chance for Indy permanently.
Nicola is a good politician. She is not a great leader.
Don’t know where all the aberrant question marks came from. They weren’t in the preview.
The only way for Scotland to ‘recover’ its economy is to be independent. (We don’t have a true economy until independent, hence inverted commas)
The SNP reasons for delaying independence make no sense – it should be the opposite.
JGedd 12:15
Stuff on Blair aka Orwell
link to darcymoore.net
There are things about the Scottish character that one might choose to dislike.
The above piece by the Rev is certainly one of them.
In the West house parties are the hot spot. To hit that easily and memorably limit visits between homes.
If Craig Murray wishes to visit his son then meet in a pub where NOW the rules are strict. Otherwise invite your son to Edinburgh.
He may be too clever for this stupid world!
Independence is normal and so is cupidity.
Angus MacNeil retweeting the Guardian from 2016….
link to mobile.twitter.com
“Scottish first minister to publish draft bill for independence poll, saying she has mandate to defend Scotland’s remain vote”…
2016, and we all know she did nothing to defend Scotland’s remain vote, and five years later, with Scotland Brexited, constitutionally subjugated and under the cosh of Westminster’s colonial aggression, she’s offering us the same stale drivel from 2016 which she can’t even be bothered to reheat in a microwave.
Hold a Conference SNP. Go on. I fkg dare you.
They wallow in hubris, do nothing to defend our Nation or it’s Constitution from a rabid colonial aaggressor, treat us all like mugs, …and then they blink in the sunlight wondering why we’re so fkg angry???
So here is the SNP manifesto for May 2021.
– We support being taken out of Europe, our right to unrestricted travel, trading and automatic entitlement to shared social protections like health care, social security etc being removed.
– We support the removal of power from the Scottish Parliament in favour of U.K. legislation.
– We support the creation of a Westminster controlled civil service to be located in Scotland to assume control over policy areas currently the remit of the SP.
– We support the creation of the UK super brand where Scottish produce from fish to farming to food will be produced to the lower standards, and where the Scottish brand will be subsumed under UK branding.
– We support the proposed restrictions to be placed on Scots Law and the authority enjoyed by the Scots legal system.
– We support the removal of EU food, environment , social and worker protections. Reducing standards and protections will allow us to become a better country for our people. Low wages, low standards breeds success.
– We support the UK doing trade deals on our behalf.
– We support the principal of opening up our health care to a trade deal, to the involvement of corporate US healthcare business.
– And lastly, all we ask is that you give us the majority mandate that we deserve so that sometime in the future, when we’ve sorted COVID and the economy, we might ask Westminster if they’ll grant us a referendum.
– Devolution never really did work, that’s why we’re letting them take back control.
Bloody spellchecker. You fill the blank.
Kaye Adams working hard to undermine public support for the new Covid-19 restrictions.
Happy to read out ill-informed politically motivated texts. R
Undermining the Covid-19 messaging reduces public adherence to the required behaviour, INCREASES the spread of the virus. Does Kaye care?
Ah famous fifteen you may have hit off a strategy now that house visits in the West of Scotland are banned.
Can’t visit your family st their home. Well that’s no bother, Judy all meet up st the pub or restaurant where you can sit and talk whilst eating and drinking at the same time, and mask free too. And you can go their by car or bus, albeit that on the bus you need to wear a mask that you can take off when you get to the pub.
Or what about having a night in a hotel. No need to deprive oneself of seeing family.
And for church goers currently denied spiritual comfort how about this.
Currently churches are restricted to fifty attendees irrespective of how big the church is, and despite some being absolutely cavernous, one has to wear a mask. But consider the McDonalds next door, or the KFC, or the local Wotherspoon where folk are sitting together drinking and eating.
So why not treat churches as food and drink outlets. Partaking of communion and the sacraments is the process of the partaking spiritual bread and wine. So why the huge difference between commercial food and drink outlets and people wanting to practice their faith.
Maybe bevvying in Wotherspoon is good, whilst praying in church is bad. Or maybe the government just has a thing against religion. Money interest talks, faith doesn’t.
Mere observations from me you will appreciate. But they do beg the questions political and scientific, and one begins to think that Nicola is playing games.
But to add logic to nonsense, maybe all those church attendees denied access to communion or mass, should with their priest or minister decamp to the local McDonalds where they can participate in the sacraments freely and without restriction.
Briandoonthetoon @ 8.54 am
BRILLIANT – thank you sir, if the REv was to ape the Guardian and allow posters to like below the line posts, you would have hundreds of likes with that one.
No singing, handshaking, or loud music of course!
What about it Nic!
[…] to accept as being stuck in this union offers me little hope for my children’s futures. Wings Over Scotland Stuart Campbell feels this is all a bit of bluster and that we have heard it all before and will […]
It’s over under the SNP. Covid is Nicola’s dream buffer, there will be no demonstrations against the government for at least 2 years.
I can’t believe the sheep are falling for it again! Her speech was lacking in any sincerity.
Well past time for a true Independence party to be formed. Forget a list party.
Just dipped my toe in the waters of the WGD there. Oh my! What a full-blown schism there is now! Fascinating how things change around these here parts. 200 hundred-odd comments BTL all reading like Daily Mail readers. So strongly reminiscent of 1984 and Winston in the cafe watching the news of the war on Eurasia believing the BS.
On the subject of BS, again it all just comes across as John Reid’s ridiculous and futile exhortation to the troops to ‘re-double their efforts’ …..
Words just dont communicate the depth of feeling here on the failure of elected politicians….Couldny hit a barn door… comes to mnd. FFS.
Promises, promises, promises…
Do the party faithful not ask themselves why this Bill was not ‘oven ready’ (to coin a phrase) and good to go already? Not like they’ve not had 6 long years to prepare it.
Funny how they can’t do referendum bills at the speed they can knock out Hate Crime and GRA legislation.
Assuming they deliver and act on the Bill – and it’s a big IF… NS will be praying for an asteroid strike to find another convenient excuse to dump it.
Crazy times. @HYUFD posts and no-one argues with him.
Just waiting on the return of @Rock and his *checks calculator -“303 years” – and everyone to think ‘aye, probably right enough’
Cor Nicky…saved by the plague. Might even last all of next year, so another bullet dodged. Many an independence supporter has died over the centuries for that goal while our current commanders await their pension settlements.
I hardly post these days on here, but still read every article.
In my opinion, it isn’t the articles that have stopped the ‘old guard’ posting. The hostile, btl new Britnat folk that are using the blpg, successfully, to attack genuine indy supporters, and cause maximum discord are responsible.
The last two articles have been both blood boiling and heart-breaking for me. It’s the wasted years of fiddling while London burned, that gets me. I now doubt that I will ever see the day we break our chains. No, we are more likely to remained strapped to the Westminster Whale as it plunges further into the deep.
On another heart rending note, regarding the article “GERS day for Mercy” there’s a collection going on for the bairn, just in case any of you feel like chipping in.
A depressing set of events all round.
Labour Liether yesterday at 7.28pm
Over and above the curious editorial bias in which it continues to be reported some intriguing highlights were:
Allegations relating to 30 complainants and 5 ministers in the first decade of the Scottish Parliament/ Executive (which was alleged to have been disproportionate compared to complaints at Westminster over the same period, and for which there had been no follow up with those who presumably might otherwise have been labelled survivors in the latter half of the decade that followed)
A rather surreal (given the context of the investigation) ‘warning’ to Jackie Baillie for asking whether Leslie Evans was a member of FDA
ACH cheeky reference to all powerful ministers behaving like villains and predators during the period in question (ie when his own party was in coalition with labour)
The ongoing revelation that Jackie Baillie is quite the skilled cross examiner – begging the question as to why she has been overlooked for Scottish labours top job until now.. unless and to extent she is a closet indy supporter too of course.
I can’t help thinking we are attacking the wrong parliament. We have to attack where the real power lies. The Scottish Parliament is a lame duck and always has been…it was designed that way! We have to attack Westminster until they want rid of us…maybe not the UK government because they know the real value of Scotland to England’s economy but the people of England. No more ‘We love you Scotland’ but just ‘eff off’. It irritates me greatly when I see our SNP MPs sitting like lapdogs in their corner of the chamber obeying Westminster’s ‘rules’ and ‘procedures’. They all should be down there causing chaos and disrupting anything Boris and his lot are doing. Also, walking out is the last thing they should do. Sinn Fein have been in oblivion for years because they are not there and being seen. There may have been a tenuous excuse when there were only a few SNP MPs at Westminster but we have forty eight now and they should be causing peaceful disruption. They should clap all they want. They should sit in the middle of the Tories. They should stand next to Boris when he is speaking. They should all be absolute pains in the arse for any of their ‘rules’ and ’procedures’. Every SNP MP should thank the people of England for all the ‘extra’ money they give us and paying for our ‘£15billion debt’…the people of England would very soon want us out of this ‘Union’. The people of England might then force Boris to give us a referendum to get rid of us!
Buchan Loony – You’ll be wanting the SNP to take seats in the House of Lords, I suppose?
No Alex, definitely not!
Alex…why do you ‘suppose’ that from what I have written?
@Juteman,
I also have been reading and following the blog many years.
In my humble opinion the old guard as you call them cannot face the simple fact that Nicola has let them down. It is utterly unpalatable to them, so they make excuses for the SON hoping against hope something is going to happen soon.
Many have gone to Wee Ginger Dug who soothes them with comforting tales of Boris giving way and the inevitability of democracy winning the day. It is fiction.
We are in a titanic struggle against a Westminster who want to nullify us by removing our ability to decide for ourselves.and we may wake to that fact too late to do anything about it.
Yes feelings run high in such a situation and often those who support unreservedly the leadership of Nicola are just as vitriolic as any Unionist towards posters on here.
Choose your camp.
The problem isn’t Holyrood or WM. The problem is the SNP leadership. Sovereignty rests with the people. We need our leaders to assert Scotland’s right to self determination.
It’s a problem of will!
Buchan Loony writes
“We have to attack Westminster until they want rid of us…maybe not the UK government because they know the real value of Scotland to England’s economy but the people of England”
We had the chance of doing that before the last election and Nicola Sturgeon didn’t lift a finger to go in that direction. When NI had a balance of Power they used it . When Scotland had a balance of power they wasted it. Whether that waste was negligence, ignorance or stupidity, who knows?
Nicola Sturgeon was born in Irvine into a working class family, she joined the SNP as a young teenage girl
Do any of you really think that this woman does not want independence for scotland, she has spent most of her adult life to get to that goal
I sometimes wonder does any of you people that slag her off as well as the party have any idea what you are talking about.
I go along with what the SNP are doing to make sure the next referendum will be our last.
As for a lot of the other stuff that’s happening with certain people running the party, their time is coming when they will regret the day they took us for granted, all the big issues are basically been catered for, like feminism, women’s rights, gay issues, and they still push for more, it will never stop, they will not be satisfied, they have to keep going to make money off all the things they have been given, keep pushing and pushing for rights that the have had for years,
As I said before making laws that the majority of voters don’t want or like does not work, we just ignore unfair laws, you will never be found guilty in any court in scotland for basically having nothing to do with senseless laws
Does anyone still pay a television licence, if they do they are being conned, just ignore them and they go away
Ignore a stupid law and it eventually goes away, the legal system cannot put us all in prison, I am single so they can try if they like and I would get my QC onto them as fast as he likes, and he is not cheap let me tell you, but worth every penny
Donald Trump is delusional and its infectious. Wink,wink ,know what I mean?
Dislike the FM If you wish but dislike the virus also. It is real.
@ TheBuchanLoony
‘They all should be down there causing chaos and disrupting anything Boris and his lot are doing. Also, walking out is the last thing they should do. Sinn Fein have been in oblivion for years because they are not there and being seen. ’
I agree with the first sentence but not with the second. If SNP feel they have to be there then they should make as much a din as possible to get publicity, as they did at first and have done only very few times since. But Sinn Fein, despite never taking their seats have never really lost the trust of folk who vote for them; they can’t be accused of getting too cosy with the political enemy, they always still seem as mostly insurgents to Westminster not establishment figures.
I know SNP are in power at Holyrood and there can’t be seen as insurgent in Scotland, they govern for all and that’s important. But I think they’ve somehow carried over Sturgeon’s be nice, don’t frighten the horses attitude to Westminster too – and down in Westminster they should and have to be insurgents to do any good. Salmond grabbed the mace or something didn’t he a long time ago? That’s what’s needed down there if they insist on being there.
@David Caledonia.
Nicola Sturgeon is allowing, nay promoting, these people within the party. It is her doing. If you don’t believe that then you are saying she is not in control of the party apparatus in which case she should not be leading at all.
And btw, I forgot to mention he mostly works as a lawyer in his own practice, he really only works as a QC in petition cases, he has acted as a QC in quite a few murder trials in scotland, for a guy under 40 years old he is quite something, I could not respect and other human being any more that I respect this brilliant young man
My keyboard needs to be thumped hard or it misses letters, sorry about that, needs cleaned
iain mhor
at 10.16
The return of Rock
Now that’s taking it too far ?
David Caledonia says:
2 September, 2020 at 11:28 am
Nicola Sturgeon was born in Irvine into a working class family, she joined the SNP as a young teenage girl
Do any of you really think that this woman does not want independence for scotland, she has spent most of her adult life to get to that goal
The SNP is rotting under Nicola’s regime and a fish rots from the head down. If the Salmond stitch up happens to implicate the great leader will you turn the other way and explain it as being part of the greater good? I’d struggle with that massively.
Do I believe that she once sought independence as a young girl with notions of equality?- Yes.
Do I believe people can change their opinions over time, even core beliefs due to financial motivations and notions of power?- Absolutely.
Do I believe I’ve seen enough to make an informed judgement over many years to ascertain that Nicola doesn’t want to pursue Independence for Scotland – Yes
Bob Mack
She has to go along with the selection process, when there are enough of these idiots selected and voted for by their pals there is nothing she can do,
Its called the democratic process which we all must follow, the voters will have to get them deselected themselves when the time comes, as it surely will in time
All the best bob
“She has to go along with the selection process”
That can be read two ways…
Bob Mac
I am trying my best to get some respect back into this site, you calling the FM that wee ginger dog shows you need to learn respect, would you call any other female you know as family or friends a wee ginger dog, think about it, you only recieve respect if you give respect, no matter if we agree or disagree with someone, they are entitled to be shown respect and good manners as befits us all as human beings,
@David Caledonia.
You exemplify the problem. Nowhere have I called Nicola the Wee Ginger Dug. You made that up because it’s your interpretation of what you think I wrote.
Try reading it again or get glasses.
David Caledonia,
I understand that people in general shouldn’t hurl insults and attacking Nicola Sturgeon personally is counterproductive but she and the leadership of the SNP deserve criticism of their handling of our route to independence.
Also, there is a certain level of respect accorded to people generally that can either be enhanced or degraded by their words and actions.
I also note that you “are trying to get some respect back into this site” is a pejorative and unflattering generalisation that may or may not enhance respect accorded to you by people here.
P.S.
Do you know Mialuca?
It seems Nicola Sturgeon, if she wants Independence, wants it to happen without a fight. Without court battles or messy s30 disputes. Passively without anything changing much, her continuing as FM and Holyrood much as it is but with more power to facilitate the agenda and identity politics that she has chosen to pursue. The people moving towards Independence without even having to campaign seems to be the gradualist route that the SNP want. I get the feeling the campaign is the last thing she wants although I appreciate that was not always the case.
Maybe the idea of defeat is too much to bear either emotionally or as blow to her ego.
Meanwhile, on this site many people have decided they do not like that vision of an independent Scotland but have decided that Independence is itself even more desirable and indeed urgently required. The divide we see now is e.g. on WGD they are happy with the current SNP vision of Scotland and see the SNP as their natural home even with all its faults.
With regard to departed BTL contributors, I have to say I am not unhappy that the more paranoid 77th Brigade obsessed have taken their obsessions elsewhere.
Juteman says:
2 September, 2020 at 10:22 am
I hardly post these days on here, but still read every article.
In my opinion, it isn’t the articles that have stopped the ‘old guard’ posting. The hostile, btl new Britnat folk that are using the blpg, successfully, to attack genuine indy supporters, and cause maximum discord are responsible.
I disagree with you Juteman. In my humble opinion the ‘old guard’ as you describe them, consistently came here with their pro SNP narrative, but found to their discomfort that their narrative would be fastidiously questioned and tested, and their answers, (or usually the lack of them), would be closely scrutinised. This is a pro Independence site, not necessarily a pro SNP site.
This site is as far removed from an anti Independence site as it is possible to be, (and fine well the WGD detractors know it too). What really gets under their skin is this site’s robust determination to ask the awkward questions, press for meaningful answers, and not be fobbed off with the lame Party-line rhetoric which apparently satisfies them.
They routinely whine that Wings has been taken over by BritNats, but there have always been BritNats and Trolls posting BTL on Wings, and it doesn’t take a genius to spot them, ignore them, and scroll by their attempt at disruption / deflection.
They routinely whine that we criticise the SNP by default, but never put forward alternative proposals ourselves, (Unless it’s a toxic UDI proposal dipped in hemlock overnight), but yet regular Wingers know that simply isn’t true. I have been promoting a multitude of Constitutional options for years, and indeed commending Joanna Cherry’s legal / constitutional initiatives too, and yet never once has anyone from the SNP ‘old guard’ engaged constructively with that discussion, nor provided answers to any of the same questions being asked month in, month out, for years now. And I’m not alone…
Whatever the ‘old guard’ might say about trolls and BritNats here on Wings is a smokescreen. The simple fact is their lame, blind faith and fact free acceptance of Nicola Sturgeon’s infallible “strategy”, simply doesn’t cut any ice here on Wings. What might pass for constructive dialogue BTL on some sites comes up against an altogether tougher crowd here on Wings, and some people just don’t like that.
They don’t like their to see their illusions being battered and shattered, (and be compassionate, who does?) but rather than abandon those fragile illusions for our gritty reality, they retreat to a forum where their illusions are never tested, and they can happily socialise in the safe company of like minded souls, like a support group which won’t ask anybody any awkward questions.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not out to condemn that. In fact, I wish them well. But for me, personally, I find such schmaltz to be much too saccharine for my tastes. I don’t want to idle away the hours lamenting some doomed strategy which doesn’t work, when we have powerful Constitutional tools right here at our fingertips, but a delusional majority who refuse to see what is right there in front of them.
Try as I might, I simply cannot reconcile why Scotland was denied a Constitutional Backstop by our own god-damned “Government”. It was literally our golden ticket to Independence, and a strategy which delivered in spades for Northern Ireland, and would have delivered for us!!!
You say ‘old guard’ Juteman? I just see high priests and robed acolytes of SNP strategy, who vigorously denounce all non-believers, just like the medieval churches denounced their non-believers as heretics.
If you want an additional metaphor, Wings is where SNP religion meets modern science, and surprise, surprise, it’s the ethereal mumbo-jumbo which is in for a tough ride.
So what’s the answer? Open warfare? Please don’t fellow Wingers. Sheath your swords and holster your pistols. Be tolerant. Try not to polarise ourselves into “us and them”. Be patient and open. Maybe they are deluded fools, (and no doubt say the same about us), but they’re deluded fools who are on our side. We will need each other.
In the metaphor I’ve just used above, just remember we are the ones with science-fact on our side. They are the ones trying to sell a faith based gospel to atheists…
…That means we’re the ones who DON’T burn heretics.
@ Juteman says:
10:22 am
Juteman, I wish you’d answer a couple of questions since I still don’t understand your position. Why do you, Capella, Cat, leither all seem to insist any new posters, and I am one, are obvious unionists, infiltrators, Britnats? And most of all why do none of you seem to believe that there were unionist, 77th brigade britnats in the older days of this blog? This blog was just as successful then as now – more so according to the Cat – so why wouldn’t there have been infiltrators then too? Why won’t any of you even believe there could have been?
And don’t you think genuine 77 brigade would be a lot more subtle? They’re probably some of the people you interact with whom you least suspect. Yes there’s at least one stupid troll on here who changes name regularly but that one sounds to me very unsophisticated and more someone with time on their hands and a personal delight in causing ructions. And why do you assume they’re only present on this blog? Especially if you say this blog is losing readers then true britnats would focus on SNP supporting blogs most, and move to another blog to cause mayhem there too, wouldn’t they? Why only suspect people here? But why the black and white, old days great, new bad?
Then was a halcyon time when only true Indy folk like you posted? No doubt you too liked the supportive attitude then, but the SNP itself then was more supportive – to each other as well as to members and to voters. Now, since you’re unhappy with what’s written, all of us, including the author, who has always been until recently vehemently supportive of the party, but now because there is some criticism of the party, which even some of you said was warranted, now he all of us are britnats?
I just don’t understand such black and white comparisons that you seem happy with.
Thebuchanloony @10.45am
You said
“ It irritates me greatly when I see our SNP MPs sitting like lapdogs in their corner of the chamber obeying Westminster’s ‘rules’ and ‘procedures’. They all should be down there causing chaos and disrupting anything Boris and his lot are doing.”
I agree entirely with you and it would be good to see a bit more aggression and passion from them down in Westminster . That’s exactly what they should be doing , every time they ask a question and get a lot of waffle in an answer from a Tory minister they should be standing up and protesting against the answer and raising points of order every time it happens and disrupt the proceedings as much as they can .
For example every time a Tory goes on about how much money the Uk supposedly supports Scotland by they should be asking the question , EXACTLY HOW MUCH SCOTLAND DOES SEND TO WESTMINSTER AS WESTMINSTER HAVE NEVER PUBLISHED THE FIGURES SINCE 1921 ?? .
They’ve forgotten that as Winnie Ewing said ,
They are there to SETTLE UP not to SETTLE Down .
Brian @8.54am, brilliant, and so true.
I think the FM is a bit of a follower on this, not a leader. That is, she will only call for a 2nd referendum if there is clear majority demand for it.
So, there have been numerous times in 2017/8/9 when it looked like that support for independence would surge to a solid majority view (e.g. when the SNP won the 2015 election, after the Brexit referendum, after the 2017 election, when Brexit negotiations got stuck). Each time the FM was asked about a 2nd referendum, and always (consistently) said the same: she’s thinking about it / it may happen next year. But when support for independence did not surge, she did nothing.
Now the situation is a bit different, because for first time ever it appears that the majority view is pro-independence. (One poll may be an outlier, but every single one for 1/2 year looks solid evidence to me.) So maybe this time things will really be different, because the circuamstances *are* different, and the FM will act?
Well said Breeks and Silver Darling.
I found the ‘old guard’ somewhat tiresome with their accusations of trolls, 77th etc when commentators shared a different opinion of the SNP.
They were happy when they were in their old cliquey echo chamber and have once again found their nirvana in WGD.
Political debate and constructive criticism of the SNP is not something they find easy to accept. I don’t want this site to become full of SNP drones – I enjoy reading all the differences of opinions – that is healthy.
If NS were to be more active/start the process for achieving Indy, the ground which would need to be covered, by us, is
The Campaign
At the moment the thing stopping us from Campaigning (in a Covid appropriate way) is a Campaign strategy.
The SNP campaign strategy back in 2014 (under Alex) was not particularly good – the inspiring stuff came from all of you lot.
The current SNP have said (and sorry I don’t have the record to it) that until Opinion Polls reach 60% they will not go for it.
The real power lies in us. Lets campaign, and lets get it to 60% before Brexit.
No-one from any corner of he Yes movement / I don’t trust Nicola brigade, no-one, can take issue with the above course of action.
It is going to need done in any case. Now really is the time.
A favour, can anyone remember how long the process takes to hold a Referendum. I have the figure of 6 months minimum in my head for some reason.
Bob Mac
Do not insult my intelligence, you wrote the wee ginger dug mmm
Maybe your memory is not what it was, go and read your comment and your complete lack of respect for our first minister
No wonder the ant/everything brigade are getting away with their agenda with people like you about, try that on youtube and you might find yourself in court, I have warned you, but your probably like myself, to small fry to be bothered with,
I do bother them, but under different names on different outlets
Go to youtube and google in Scott Arthur, he is a lying unionist clown that happened to be born in scotland, you might see me there as Porto Rico, yes I am the very few SNP members that are a pain in the arse to them there, he never replies btw, but you can sign up to his page and tell him what you think of him, maybe we can get him removed by weight of numbers, as he seems to be a bit of a coward to me, he is basically an idiot who is also a teacher in scotland, you can find out all about this guy yourself and see what we are up against
Hi David Caledonia.
You ‘dug’ a wee furrow for yourself and, now, you seem to be digging a hole!
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
@Tinto Chiel
Thanks for your link. I had forgotten about Wikepedia. Sometimes it is very useful as in this case. I was relying principally on memory (not always reliable!) of the Bernard Crick biography ( regrettably unaccountably lost during a flitting.) The only name I could remember from the infamous list was MacDiarmid’s.
Thanks also for that interesting info on the infiltration of POUM. It puts a different shading on the usual picture of what caused Orwell’s revulsion against the communist brigades.
@ Ottomanboi
Thanks for that link. Fascinating & informative. The word that occurred more than once in that piece was ‘paradoxical’. It describes quite well the seeming idiosyncratic hang-ups of Blair & the English establishmnet & the strange phenomenen of dealing with embarrassing guilt about their family’s colonial past by unloading it on to a less favoured national ancestry (in this case, Scottish ) & so redeem themselves by their Englishness. (Like changing your name from Blair to Orwell – the name of an English river.)
In talking about these ‘colonial’ Scots I also had in mind relatives of mine in the time of the British Empire who were part of the colonial administration in Burma & though they were dead before I was born we still have photographs of them on the verandah of the tennis club drinking cocktails in their then fashionable tennis clothes being served by uniformed attendants.
From relatively humble origins they had been elevated to a status they would not have enjoyed in their own country, enjoying a lifestyle, including servants, not available to them before.
Add to that being able to make return trips back home to lord it over your relatives & you can see why the British Empire succeeded in gaining such support from those who benefitted, untroubled by the situation of the subservient ‘natives’.
There has been a recent trend not just to remind Scots of their involvement in the evils of the Empire but also to subtly emphasise that role as if to suggest that they in some way, bear a greater share of tthe blame than the English. Classic displacement of guilt.
Bob Mac
Your right it was juteman that said it, why did you repost all his comment, with no comment from you, this site gets stranger and stranger by the day, I am beginning to wonder who you really are
You profess to having been an SNP supporter, but you do not come across as an SNP supporter now, or maybe you never where a supporter,
Do you have your SNP membership card to show us
I have mine and willing to show it after you
Well said Daisy Walker. It is indeed needed to agree where we can and focus on that in working and going forward together. We should be able to disagree on other stuff but accept we have different views without falling out completely.
Bob Mac
SNP Membership number………………..you first
A few folk have picked up on my post.
I’m not accusing individuals of being trolls, but the language btl against certain female posters on here is disgusting. It never used to be like that on here as posters self moderated each other. I could never recommend Wings these days to females.
Stu has never stopped this, as far as i can see, so he obviously doesn’t care.
I’m sorry it has come to this, as i agree with much that Stu is saying, but he seems to have abandoned btl to the dregs of the 77th to the detriment of the message he is posting.
@juteman
I remember in the good old days quite a few of those who have since adopted the holier than thou demeanour over on WGD did not self moderate at all hence they were banned.
None of us know who is really here to disrupt or under pretence. Even if we know them in person we don’t know what they get up to in their own home away from us. We can only state our intentions and wishes and try to back up our assertions. As Polly says there will be all sorts going on with infiltrators on social media and within the SNP itself and it may be so subtle and gradual no one sees it til too late.
I think the main worry are the newcomers to the SNP who arrive with a vague unverifiable back story. They fit in seamlessly and then start to take over at local party level making themselves useful and trustworthy and no one knows where they came from but they seem to have turned the party away from its main purpose.
A few choice words and disagreements BTL seems not really that much in comparison.
The ongoing Transwars
Use transgender pronouns or face possible dismissal: new guidelines for NI’s 23,000 civil servants
link to archive.is
Cos some of them do take their pronouns seriously
link to archive.is
@SilverDarling.
I totally agree with you. The SNP seem to have been taken over by wokists and those out to ruin the cause.
Surely the SNP needs defended against these entryists that don’t have Indy as their core belief? Don’t destroy the SNP because some recent incomers are trying to rot it from within?
@Polly.
I have never called you a troll. Surely the trolls are obvious?
@Juteman
I think we can all agree on that.
@Breeks.
There are no heretics left on this site for you to burn. They are all true believers.
Just 10 or so more mandates should do the trick.
@Breeks.
There are no heretics left on this site for you to burn. They are all true believers that are left on here.
Bob Mack & Dave Caledonia
LMAO
“You show me yours and i’ll show you mine”- you first!
God, am i back in primary 6 or 7 here or what?!
Ah the memories. Remember those days fondly-the innocence then.Now you’d be arrested lol.How times change.
@ Juteman
No, you never called me a troll with your comments, but I will say as a newer poster seeing old time people like yourself, Capella and Cat almost constantly talking about trolls and 77 brigade and britnats and unionist who are now everywhere on this site and only disrupt what was a harmonious place before means it’s not welcoming to people like me. It makes genuine new people feel they and anything they say are suspect by the remaining old guard.
There must have been trolls before but curiously you deny or ignore that. And no I do not believe you can always tell who trolls are if you’re only judging by criticism of the party, not when some things in the party need criticised, that doesn’t equate to trolling. As SilverDarling says the real damage to independence is people who are in positions of power not some random on the comments of a blog. And most of all, if Wings itself is important as it has always been, then why desert it and leave it to trolls?
Also ‘There are no heretics left on this site for you to burn. They are all true believers that are left on here.’ statements like that create an us and them situation as well as being disparaging to those who want to remain. So you’re not helping either.
Do folk really think we will liberate ourselves from unjust constitutional subjugation, if our government is ideologically unable to support equality in law and human rights? That’s what allowing support for genderwoowoo has resulted in. The political inability to support our inalienable “Right to Development”.
The Cognitive Science of Political Thought: Practical Takeaways for Political Discourse
link to behavioralscientist.org
All this rhetoric because your blog points out the flaws in SNP over independence.
Many of us activists now disillusioned as well.
Yet we have another mana tomorrow voters just get is elected again in Holyrood.
Count me out on campaign trail this time.
I will believe her when I see her deliver.
You’re an idiot
Bob Mac
Show your membership number,
Well o/t
Yes.Scot got donations, how much did they receive?
There is nothing on the site or at least I can’t find it
Second there were detail of what the money was for and the fact it was to be ring fenced
Appreciated
Let’s use the Scottish Digital Covenant as our referendum. Every one should sign it. Why wait for Sturgeon to make up her mind ….it may never happen.
[…] has attracted some criticism from independence quarters for lacking substance and merely rehashing old promises while others argue the lack of preparation for IndyRef2 by the SNP leadership has been […]
[…] has attracted some criticism from independence quarters for lacking substance and merely rehashing old promises while others argue the lack of preparation for IndyRef2 by the SNP leadership has been […]