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Wings Over Scotland

From the Information Commissioner

Posted on September 11, 2019 by

We’d almost forgotten the delirious pleasure of having something to write about that isn’t sodding Brexit, so thank heavens for this email today:

It’s the outcome of a case that we’ve been pursuing since February, and while it’s a very welcome step it’s still not quite good enough.

We’ve replied to the ICO as follows:

“Thank you for the response and action. The one outstanding matter that concerns me is that the next Scottish Parliament election is scheduled for 2021. The petition began in 2015. Given the demographic of Conservative Party supporters in particular (almost half are over 65 years of age), it seems entirely reasonable to posit that a non-trivial number of signatories might in fact have died over a six-year period.

Does the ICO have any view on this issue and how it might be addressed? It seems to me that for a petition conducted over such an unusually long period, requiring active confirmation might be more appropriate than merely the option to retract.

I appreciate that this would impose an additional workload on the Conservative Party, but it would be of their own making, and is perhaps the reason why most petitions gather signatures over a few days, not six years.”

We’ll keep you updated with any further responses, and also with the outcome of the similar case we’ve raised regarding Scotland In Union.

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    1. 11 09 19 16:56

      From the Information Commissioner | speymouth

    379 to “From the Information Commissioner”

    1. Den Cairns says:

      Sterling work as always Stu.

    2. Bob Mack says:

      Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Way to go Stu. Have they removed the name Mesthusula yet?

    3. Jim Watson says:

      LOL, set the Court of Session into them, that’ll sort them out…

    4. Effijy says:

      Love it Rev,

      They must have picture of you with on their dart board. lol

      Is there a timescale whereby they must reply to you?

      How did such incompetents ever get voted into power in England?

      I revel in the fact that Scots have never given the Tories a majority
      Vote in the last 3 generations.

      No sign of it happening in the next generation either!

    5. Merkin Scot says:

      Step by step. Great.

    6. Welsh Sion says:

      “The organisation has also confirmed that they will contact individuals before presenting petitions to inform them of their interest to submit the petition, and provide individual’s [sic.] with the option to withdraw their consent if they so wish.”


      The individual can’t very easily ‘opt to withdraw’ if they are pushing up the daisies. After what period of time, when having received no response, one way or the other, that the individual has joined the choir invisible or emigrated or become a guest of Her Majesty?

      Note to the Information Commission: Must try harder.

    7. mogabee says:

      Aye well done on your tenacity and determination to not let any organisation do what the hell they like!

      Pity about the noise level following the last article when all you are doing is pointing out the bloody obvious…

    8. defo says:

      Oh you are a one Stu. Well done on your affirmative action’s.

      Ramping up the noise level is precisely what’s reqd now.

    9. Adrian B says:

      Well done for getting this result.

    10. Fergus Green says:

      Nice work Stuart, and your reply to the commissioner made me smile.

    11. schrodingers cat says:

      well done for highlighting this stu

      it is important for the truth to be published by someone and the authorities held to account

      the actual effect on whether it moves us closer to independence is difficult to calculate, same as joanna cherry’s legal action i suppose.

    12. Tom says:

      I’ll say it’s not good enough. There’s a rogue apostrophe.

    13. Republicofscotland says:

      Very well done Stu.

    14. Iain says:

      ‘… and provide individual’s with the option …’

      Ouch, does the ICO not know how to use an apostrophe?

    15. Gary45% says:

      Pro-Rogue, sums up a Tory/Inbredxeteer nicely.

    16. Welsh Sion says:

      Tom and Iain.

      I already [sic’d] this @ 3:23 pm! 🙂

    17. Graeme J McAllan says:

      Please keep twisting the knife 😉

    18. Morgatron says:

      Superb Stu, a good result so far and anything that gives the shites in union more work is always good in my eyes.

    19. Sharny Dubs says:

      Stu, take a bow!

      Nice work

    20. John McLeod says:

      This has been a useful issue to pursue, because it draws attention to the dubious practices being followed by the Tories – and lets them know that they are being watched. However, I think that your response to the Infiormation Commission lets them off too lightly. I have just been on the Scottish Conservative website. They have a petition that aims to collect data to show that lots of people think that Nicola Sturgeon is wrong, etc. Anyway – the closure date of the petition is described in the following terms: “The petition will be presented at the next elections to the Scottish Parliament”. This is obviously a long time into the future. In other words, it is not the usual kind of snapshot/immediate petition that we are familiar with. It is in fact a data-trawling exercise. Just the kind of thing that the good Rev was challenging them on.

    21. Gary says:

      Thank God you are still worrying away at this. Someone must ‘snap at their heels’ and without you no one would bother.

      It’s this kind of disingenuous (being polite) tomfoolery with figures that allows Tory politicians to go on ait and say that ‘most Scots don’t want independence’ despite repeated surveys confirming that indeed they ARE. They can claim that they were referring to THIS petition and reject any claim they are making it up. But then there’s you, bursting their bubble. It’s as near a flat out lie as anything can be without ACTUALLY being just made up. Contrived and controlled to only get those responding who will answer in a certain way and doing so over such an unfeasible amount of time that many signatories will, as you’ve stated, have died in the interim.

      As usual, we have toothless regulatory bodies who simply ‘remind’ and ‘recommend’ instead of insisting this stop and fining what is, after all, the party of government in the UK for lying about the truth of political opinion in Scotland on a crucial subject to gain electoral advantage. NB isn’t THAT an actual criminal offence should a politician knowingly quote false information to gain such advantage??

      Imagine is it was brought to each individual Conservative politician’s attention that the information they were quoting was UNTRUE due to the way the information was gathered. Being utterly unable to deny they knew the truth of the matter (having no plausible deniability) means they could say they didn’t know and do the usual ‘withdraw the statement’ about a fortnight after the newspaper headline. It would mean quoting this then known lie during an election could cause them to have committed an offence in the same way that Alistair Carmichael was said to have done when he deliberately lied.

      Maybe a campaign to inform the Tories, why not ALL of the unionist parties politicians? A standard letter reprinted a few hundred times and posted? Time and effort plus maybe £500? Maybe the kind of thing that campaigners could devote time to and use donated funds for in fact. Could open a doorway to a potential future legal action/actions.

      Better still, they might be forced to ADMIT that we, the people of Scotland DO desire our nation independent…

    22. Heart of Galloway says:

      O/T Much ado in Dumfries the day – the Jookie Rothesay’s Camilla arrived in toon.

      Assorted *ahem* dignitaries fawned appropriately, weans presented and forelocks touched for Her Royal Glaikitness.

      “She’s no’ very braw,” one onlooker foolishly observed before being taken away by men in dark suits.

      Herself went beyond the call of duty in communing with the great unwashed before departing modestly by Landcover and helicopter.

      We can expect much more of this I fear…

    23. Sandy says:

      Message to the queen of England regarding her Prime Minister.

      OFF WITH HEAD!!!

    24. Ken500 says:

      How many signed there petition. More than 10 folk? The Tories going down abd down into oblivion, How low can they go,

      The Nine is nae too bad, watched by mistake,

    25. johnj says:

      It’s because of stuff like this that they hate you Stu,
      thank goodness that you couldn’t give a toss!

      Keep up the good work.

    26. Colin Alexander says:

      From my experience the ICO is one of the better regulatory organisations at making a decision, but very poor at actually taking any enforcement action against organisations, especially public bodies that breach the DPA, usually saying, I paraphrase:

      In our assessment we think they broke the Data Protection Act / GDPR, naughty naughty, please give us your assurance you won’t do it again and we’ll say no more.

    27. robertknight says:

      This scenario confirms what I’ve suspected for years…

      Tories are just a bunch of zombie flesh eaters who reside under headstones in cemeteries and only appear at party events when summoned from beyond by the Grand Officiator.

    28. End the union! says:

      This case / topic / action is what Wings do brilliantly and should be celebrated loudly and widely for doing so.

      Time to drop the nonsense of setting up a rival party and continue to succeed with actions such as this – keep it up!

    29. Famous15 says:

      How can a Scottish court tell an English PM what to do.Our English Queen wont allow it.

      We should never have devolved courts to Scotland.

      We pay a fortune for these jock judges wigs.

      We should stop giving them money and tell them to FO.

      We should rip up the Treaty of Union and
      tell them to FO.

      I never voted for Brexit so porridge guzzlers could tell me what to do.

      Sturgeon and Cherry cant hold a candle to Ruth Davidson.

      Scotch bastards.

    30. yesindyref2 says:

      Where’s the Rev when you need him to cast an eye over the media? There’s more than one headline like this DM one:

      Boost for Boris Johnson as ENGLISH judges say PM’s Parliament shutdown CANNOT be legally challenged – hours after it was deemed illegal by Scottish court

      The Grun did something simialr.

      But the actual decision was last Friday, it’s just the judges giving their reasons, their full judgement today. The Miller UKSC appeal is still going ahead on Tuesday.

      But the media are deliberately trying to mislead readers into thinking this comes AFTER the CoS ruling. As a Get it up you, which it wasn’t at all.

      @Rev, call for @Rev!

      He’ll see my posting anyway as it goes on the moderation list 🙂

    31. Graeme says:

      Jo Swinson
      ?Verified account @joswinson
      10h10 hours ago

      Scottish judges have found in favour of 75 MPs (including me and other @LibDems.) We argued that Boris Johnson’s Parliament shutdown is illegal, and designed to stifle parliamentary debate and action on Brexit.

      Here’s Jo Swinson trying to steal the credit for someone else’s work, what a piece of dogshit that woman is

    32. dadsarmy says:

      Swinson was one of the 75, as was Ian Murray. Cherry was 1st, with Jolyon 2nd, but it was a combined effort. Here’s the full list:

    33. Gary45% says:

      There will be many, many people with exactly this mentality.
      I have had the misfortune having to listen to them in hotels, in the EU of all places.
      It pains me to say some have Scottish accents, we have all met them at some point.
      No surprise somebody by the name of Swinson stealing someone’s work, if its positive expect “Shortbread’s” finest bigging her up, and the usual SNP BAAAD.

    34. John says:

      I may be missing something but to my eyes, the response does not address the central point in that the petitions are a name and details gathering exercise. Contact details are valuable in their own right. These appear to have been gathered fraudulently because no matter how they try to retroactively comply with the data gathering rules, when these names were gathered, they were not compliant. Therefor I suggest that unless they remove all the contacts gathered from their databases, they are still not compliant.

    35. RM says:

      Joanna Cherry what a great stalwart for Scotland a right hard working Quine.

    36. Socrates MacSporran says:

      While I agree with his suggestion that the Treaty/Act of Union should be ripped up, whatever you other Wingers do, DO NOT TELL Famous 15 WHEN THE UK SUPREME COURT SITS TO CONSIDER A SCOTTISH CASE, THEY SIT UNDER SCOTS LAW

      This just might do his head in.

    37. ben madigan says:

      The UK Govt has finally released the infamous Yellowhammer Assessment of what’s likely to happen with a No Deal Brexit. It’s very like a document that was leaked to the Times August last. Here’s a link to the leaked doc and some questions and answers of what to expect!

    38. crazycat says:

      @ Socrates

      I think Famous 15 was quoting comments on the BBC, not expressing a personal opinion. (See also Gary45% at 8.23pm.) If not exact quotations, the sentiment has been captured.

    39. wull says:

      This is excellent work. Thank you for keeping at it, and remaining in hot pursuit of them. Whatever happens to any of us after death, even the Conservative Party must accept that their supporters will thereby have lost their vote.

    40. Graeme says:

      @ dadsarmy

      Thanks for putting me right on the Jo Swinson thing I stand corrected

      She’s still a dogshit

    41. Bob Mack says:


      Given that yellowhammer acknowledges there will be a huge drain on police services etc to monitor protests,disorder etc,could this be an opportunity for Scotland government to say bye bye whether you like it or not.

      England will be too busy fighting among themselves to deal with it.

    42. SlimJimmy says:

      I’ve picked up many a dogshit, and find it much more pleasant than Jo Swinson.

    43. Sandy says:

      Boris broke Scottish law whilst in Scotland. Thus, he has committed a criminal offence. There can be no doubt of his guilt. Can we get an immediate extradition order & have him convicted of treason.
      Is this still a capital offence in Scotland with the traditional penalty?

    44. call me dave says:

      Boris broke Scottish law whilst in Scotland! Yes that’s a good point Queenie at Balmoral when the deed was done, shurley we have first go in a court case. Joanna Cherry should be all over that.

      A moot point in the serious sense of the word. We can all wish eh!

      This NI business mentioned in yellowhammer seems to have bad connotations for law & order and our 300 police being sent there.

      I hope the FM tries to oppose such a thing taking place. None of them expected that to be on their duty roster. 🙁

    45. dadsarmy says:

      The chances are if BoJo offered her the deputy PMship she’d jump at the chance.

    46. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Socrates MacSporran @ 21:38,

      Yup, I made the same point in the previous thread. So in principle at least the SC could come to two quite separate decisions in this prorogation scandal, if the basis in law for each were different.

      Mind you, I doubt the good judges will. Leaving aside any suspicion of Scottish deference and English exceptionalism within the court, I wouldn’t even like to place a bet on whether it’s prepared to live up to its grandiose name, and is legally and morally prepared to challenge any UKGov, let alone this constitutionally-rampaging one.

      But for this issue we’ll find out soon enough.

      It’s likely though not the last constitutional challenge the SC will have to face in this disintegrating Union, and if not this time, there will surely come a time in which it will finally have to stop ducking and diving.

    47. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      call me dave @ 22:55,

      He wasn’t in Scotland for that. He sent three stooges to do the dirty deed.

      Maybe he already had an inkling…


    48. jfngw says:


      It’s worse, you can now be sentenced to attend a Gordon Brown speech.

    49. call me dave says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      Aye I know that, but culpable nevertheless. 🙂

      Maybe just issue a warrant and keep him Sarf of the wall.

      Found some toffee & salted popcorn for tomorrow’s revelations

    50. jfngw says:

      It would seem quite a lot of people down south don’t like the fact that Scots have their own laws that are not subordinate to English law. We have a solution for them, give us the tools and we will finish the job.

    51. Iain mhor says:

      Well said and well done. Very well done.

      Off topic- someone upthread posted a comment about ripping up the Treaty of Union. I have taken a passing interest in the Emma de Souza case (GFA/Irish Nationality) and spotted an interesting argument, supposedly put forward in court.
      “…the Govt cannot be bound to the spirit of an international agreement” (in reference to the GFA)

      Thread here:

      Unrelated but interesting:
      The Clash between direct and representative democracy in relation to Brexit.

      An extraordinarily prescient and compelling take from Conservative Home in January – on whether T.May could prorogue parliament. Including discussion on the role of the Privy Council and all the relevent issues which have since transpired under Boris.

      Finally, if you really can’t sleep and want to go down the rabbit hole of the Privy Council – then this is extraordinary reading.
      You’ll find a link to download the full paper at the bottom. I can recommend it. Also recommended is having a handy receptacle to catch your jaw as it drops…frequently.

    52. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      call me dave @ 23:38,

      I’m not generally an admirer of Unite boss Len McCluskey, but being interviewed on telly today, he made me laugh out loud by saying Boris would be well advised to stay out of Scotland right now for fear of receiving a citizen’s arrest!

    53. dadsarmy says:

      Well, a review of the papers would seem to be in order:

      DT –

      A Cabinet minister has raised accusations of “bias” against the judiciary after a Scottish court ruled Boris Johnson had misled the Queen when he “unlawfully” prorogued Parliament.
      . . .
      But Kwasi Kwarteng, the business minister, said that voters were “beginning to question the partiality of the judges” and accusing them of “interfering in politics”.

      DT again: can’t be assed archiving it takes too long, it’s easy to find!

      The MPs who asked a Scottish court to overturn the prorogation of Parliament took on Boris Johnson using a 300 year old law brought in at the time of William of Orange, dubbed the “Scottish Magna Carta”.
      . . .
      It now forms a key part of the Scottish constitution and was used by MPs’ lawyers to argue that prorogation is unconstitutional, the Telefart understands.

      Express: LOL.


      Hahahaha. no really.

      I can’t do this, fx: tears of laughter.

      Here’s the sanest article I could find:

      Asteroid alert: Earth to face ‘serious destruction’ as over 800 asteroids head for planet

      Express: haha



    54. Ian Brotherhood says:

      The next ‘Friends of WOS’ will be in Dows, (Dundas St, at Queen St station) Glasgow, on Friday 25th October.

      Not 100% confirmed, but should be by this time tomorrow – details will appear on Off-Topic as well as my Twitter (same name) and elsewhere.

      Week before Brexit? Got to be worth a wee note in the diary, eh?


    55. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      dadsarmy @ 00:35,

      Kwarteng: “not me, guv – oh perish the thought! – but others are muttering…”

      Couldn’t even own his vile slander, the pseudo-respectable cowardly creep.

    56. Liz g says:

      Sandy @ 10 37 & Call me Dave @ 10.55
      Boris Johnstone isn’t going to go to jail.
      The Court of Sessions is not a Criminal Court and what he’s done is unlawful not illegal.
      Think about it like a Divorce yer lawful wife doesn’t become yer illegal wife and criminal court is not involved.
      (She doesn’t become yer unlawful wife either but that’s because that term would be held for a marriage that never met the terms and conditions of marriage, not one that had been originally lawful so another term was used ( ex )…)
      But ye get the gist,lawful and legal are two different things!

      It’s when he refuses to stop being unlawful he’d go to jail.
      But not for shutting parliament or lying to his Queen,but rather for disobeying the Court of Sessions!
      The Courts need to up hold the decision that he was indeed being unlawful and order him to stop…
      It would be disobeying the order to stop that would be illegal and therefore Criminal.
      Unless Westminster changes law to say it’s not of course!

    57. Famous15 says:

      For the avoidance of doubt and for general edification I omitted quotation marks for all of my earlier comments as they were a paraphrase and a conflation of facebook and twittecomments on the Scottish Inner House of the Court of Session judgement.

      Wisely spotted by some.

      ‘Let’s rip it up and start again’

      ‘How dare they? How very dare they?’

    58. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi LizG.

      I believe the easiest way to describe the two states is…

      Unlawful = agaist the law.

      Illegal = a sick bird.

    59. Brian Doonthetoon says:


      agais = against.

    60. Liz g says:

      Briandoonthetoon @ 1.25
      Oh well canny argue wi that towering intellectual insight 🙂

    61. dadsarmy says:

      Basically speaking BoJo is finding he can check out any time he likes, but he can never leave.

      Hope that helps!

    62. Ian McCubbin says:

      Love it Stu cintinuenthe fight and fuck them over while smaller activists like me fuck them over in other ways.
      Maybe it is nearly time to say long live the revolution, as we enter a new phase. Lol

    63. Ian McCubbin says:

      Oops continue the fight

    64. Fergus Green says:

      Another view on yesterday’s events:

    65. Ken500 says:

      Well said@ Scotgoespop. A convincing argument. Established for the fool hardy and to the world. Scottish and English Law are different and separate. Guaranteed forever under the terms of the Treaty of Union, That Scotland should be treated equally, The terms broken even before the ink was dried. Constituently broken ever since. No Democracy in Scotland. Until 2000 limited democracy under Devolution.

      The Westminster Gov imbecile have to obey International/EU/UK/English/Scottish Law, They make the Law and break the Law. Most of them should be in jail. Johnston is just a criminal. He should be put in jail. He has been getting away with criminal activities for years. Protected by the Tory tax evading grandees. Farague is a criminal. Along with the rest of them. The Law can give the imbeciles a kicking. Kicked right out of office. They do not have the ability or qualification for public office. Promoted about their capabilities.

      Johnston a public disgrace. The Tories could not make a bigger mess. A total shambles as usual. (Thatcher) Into Oblivion they go, especially in Scotland. A bunch of low lives killing off their own supporters. The elderly in the rest of the UK.
      Scotland illegally taxed and conscripted by Westminster imbeciles to pay for Westminster illegal wars, throughout history. Breaking every Law in the book. Outvoted 10 to 1.

      Some commentators have lost the way or might be losing the plot. Get a grip. See through it. Mass hysteria is not a good look. Keep calm and keep the head in time of crisis. Let the events play out in the theatre of conflicts. Not be rash or rush. In order to succeed. Good people will know the time to strike. One campaign at a time to be won. Prioritise always good advice for good management and success in any field, including politics and political manoeuvre (good French word).

      Johnston will be gone by October, The Tories going down, big time. They could not make a bigger mess. A total shambles. The electorate are not as daft as some pollsters believe. Manipulating the Polls, for money, to influence the result. Especially in tight margins the Polls are always wrong.

      One constant support for the SNP/Independence is rising. Demographics. People are sick of the mess and chaos created by Westminster. Tory unionists and LibDems, the enablers, Some people never learn. Unionist total hypocrite politicians. They could not make a bigger mess. Greedy, lying ignorant and arrogant. They are a total disgrace.

      Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Make the world a better place. Join, donate and campaign. Do not leave it to others and complain. Take responsibility. Step up to the mark. The starting block, and theybare off.Make the world a better place. Collectively can do it, help society and the community.

      There are more good than bad, looking out for each other. A majority. A caring sharing society will do. It works if you work it. ‘Accept the things you cannot change and change the things you can’. The young ones coming through to the fore will change direction, The right direction of the young ones. Demographics. People are not fools. Have faith and patience. The good will come through, for better times. Do not lose the plot. Keep engaged.

      Bet Johnston did not ever know Scottish and English Law are different. Like the rest of them. Ignorant and arrogant, Total ignoramuses, The Westminster unionist parties. Clueless. Always have been and always will be. Historical fact. Compulsive liars.

    66. Ken500 says:

      Swinson was part of the mess. Part of the mess, not the solution. A total lying hypocrite. The lying LibDems enablers. Student fees etc. Opportunists. Just trying to take the credit like the rest of the hangers on, in the situation. Political opportunist parties. Party to the mess. Swinson is in with the Tories at every milking opportunity. Lying through their teeth. Just about every world they utter is a lie. Lying hypocrites. Some people never learn. In the thick of it. Ignoramuses. The total cheek of it. Unbelievable, Disgusting.

    67. manandboy says:

      “The prime minister’s official spokesman made clear that parliament would be recalled if the supreme court upholds the Scottish judgment.” the Irish Times.

      However, and very conveniently for 10 Downing Street, Parliament will not sit due to the Party Conference season.

      “We have absolute respect for the independence of the judiciary,” he said. The Irish Times

      I wonder how many people in the UK believe that last statement. I don’t.

    68. Patrick Roden says:


      Boris broke Scottish law whilst in Scotland. Thus, he has committed a criminal offence

      You might have just posted ‘post of the year’ Sandy!

      The legal implications of this must be looked into.

    69. Breeks says:

      Fergus Green says:
      12 September, 2019 at 6:01 am
      Another view on yesterday’s events:

      Too much shit stirring going on here.

      I don’t want to get involved really, but my tuppence worth is that Rev Stu’s talk of a Wings Party and increasingly cynical attitude towards the SNP’s painful timidity is symptomatic of a deep rooted exasperation at one open goal after another being passed over by our Independence Party which only has a threadbare interest in keeping Scotland in Europe, and is incomprehensibly chiselling away at the mandate for Independence which Brexit dropped into our laps.

      Rev Stu, as I see it, is taking some of the initiative which the SNP don’t want to touch, and mooting the possibility of a Pro-Indy List Party to provide YES voters with a mechanism for winning more List Seats at Holyrood, and yes, granted, maybe giving the SNP a shot across the bows to be more proactive or risk having their thunder stolen, but it’s a benign initiative.

      Beyond the implicit exasperation, which half the damned country incidentally shares, Rev’s Wings Party is a benign intervention that meant to assist Independence by shifting the equilibrium in Proportional Representation Ballot in a positive direction for Independence. Something the SNP, without implied criticism, cannot easily do themselves.

      Yes, of course there is a risk of splitting the SNP vote where things go wrong, but with studious management and cooperation, those risks can be kept to a minimum. I refuse to believe Rev Stu would advance any initiative to injure the Indy cause deliberately, and whether you love them or hate them, the SNP is an essential component in getting the deed done and Independence over the line.

      If Rev Stu’s initiative provoked debate, well first, it was meant to, but more poignantly, please point me towards any comparable SNP initiative to change the statement, shake the snow globe, and accelerate demand for Independence and saving Scotland from a bleak fate outside Europe.

      I know the SNP doesn’t like criticism, I know know SNP acolytes get angry with criticism they cannot rebut, and I know we are all desperate to secure tangible progress towards Independence, but for all that empathy I have for other people’s frustration, I cannot imagine any retrospective review of these last three years since the Brexit Referendum, or indeed last five years since the YES Referendum returning a positive critique of our Independence strategy. It has been dismal, pedestrian, unimaginative, uncommunicative, enigmatic and unfathomable.

      Harsh truth be told, I think the strategy’s only success was in quickly dampening the pro Indy momentum and enthusiasm which spilled over from the YES Referendum, sent 53 SNP MP’s to Westminster, swelled SNP membership, and hung on to unite Scotland to defy the BritNat pundits over Brexit. The only thing which has been “managed” by our radical leaders are our expectations.

      We are passengers in the Brexit bus, and peering out the window as we pass one junction and bus stop after another which would let us out of this craziness, but time after time we do nothing. We shout how terrible it is but do nothing. We say it’s unacceptable then accept it.

      I understand 100% why Northern Ireland has a Backstop. I understand 100% why neither Ireland nor Europe will compromise on the Backstop. I do not understand 100% why Scotland doesn’t have a Backstop given that our Constitutionally Sovereign electorate rejected Brexit, and thus Scotland’s forced removal from Europe will be unlawful and unconstitutional.

      Where is our Backstop? Nowhere! Because we couldn’t even talk our way in to the negotiations.

      We all sit here, idling in our frustration, fermenting our anger and our frustration, and what do we have to show for it? Pete Wishart wants to be Speaker again, Ian Blackford says we won’t be Brexited, Nicola says we will but we’ll rejoin, Joanna wins a titanic battle in the Law Courts to un-prorogue Parliament which was in stalemate for 3 years. Nice, but why aren’t we in court defending our Sovereign Remain mandate? And everybody tells me everything is great because the glacial swing towards Indy in the polls will soon offset the EU citizens and U/18’s being allowed to vote in a referendum which Westminster is already telegraphing that it will dispute.

      It’s not a belief I share personally, but I see quips on Twitter and BTL comments speculating on whether the SNP has been knobbled. I choose to believe that isn’t true, but it feels like are reaching a state of affairs where the outcomes wouldn’t be any different if they were.

      We seem to be sacrificing so much, so cheaply, for this vision in white of a spiritual referendum we’ll hold on a sunny day when everybody smiles and votes for Independence. That’s the morphine effect. We actually need some urgent surgical intervention to stop the bleeding and life support to prevent our systems shutting down, and we’re running out of time on the slab.

      Defend our Sovereignty. Please. Before it’s too late.

      And stop this snidey bickering. Meet and have a punch up in a car park or something, and both of you get back on point once it’s out of your system.

    70. Ken500 says:

      Well done to Rev Campbell for holding the Tories to account for breaking the rules. A good decision.

      Well done to Ms Cherry and the SNP Reps for holding Westminster ignoramouses to account. They are not above the Law. A great decision. Might get some of them back to work. Finding a solution and staying in the EU. The SNP show their value for right and justice. That is what they are doing down there, if any one disputes it. Until people vote differently. Some people never learn.

    71. Ken500 says:

      Campaign to change the voting system in Scotland. The unionist illegally imposed D’Hond’t system. without a mandate. No one can understand it. First preference votes go in the bin to let the 3rd rate. losers in. A bunch of mavericks could just muck up the Parliament, without a manifesto or a mandate. Everything changes but stays the same. It would make no difference to the Independence question or solutions. There are still organisation conflicts of effective policy to be considered, The day to day business, Not just a one question Ref.

      Vote SNP/SNP to get a majority. It has been done before and can be done again. Vote for the most experienced and organised.

      Poopy pants is off again. A deterrent to Independence.

    72. Grey Gull says:

      I like your tuppenceworth.

    73. Ken500 says:

      The majority of people in Scotland will always vote to go through the Law They have done since 1928. Governments should always act to honour the Law, Or change it. Governments who break the Law are acting illegally. Making the Law and breaking the Law is illegal. The majority electorate will not vote for a government acting illegally, eventually. An oxymoron. A total contradiction of government principle. The ‘Gov’ will be voted out of office. Some should be put in prison. Or into oblivion.

    74. Ken500 says:

      Speaking nonsense is not a great solution. Just confusing.

    75. Liz g says:

      Breeks @ 8.07
      Magnificent post Breeks….

    76. Tartanpigsy says:

      So given we now know that over and above food and medicine shortages we can also expect no fuel, therefore defacto social breakdown soon after Halloween is not a wise move to get these flags landed and in place?
      The one thing we can guarantee presently ix that nothing is guaranteed, and nothing is off the table.

    77. Artyhetty says:

      Re; dadsarmy@12.35am

      Well the 800 asteroids would at least take some of the heat off the loose cannon Tories. They need something to distract from the utterly shambolic midden that they have created.

      Bull in a china shop hardly comes close.

    78. Bob Mack says:


      Wholeheartedly agree with every word. (Which is unusual).

      Time passes. Opportunities lapse. Frustration grows.

    79. manandboy says:

      I came across this today on a BBC website, while foraging for stuff about the Supreme Court.

      “Elizabeth Hunter, of the religious think-tank Theos…
      said: “There’s no settled Christian position… Iain Duncan Smith is also a Christian and well known to be passionate about relieving poverty,”

      We live in different worlds.

      None more so than that occupied by the English Establishment, with its Tory Government.

    80. Artyhetty says:

      Yes Breeks@8.07

      Very good post, well said. SNP are a party of policy as well, which is why I find it hard to see SNP bad from our side, because the msm, so called, are on a 24/7 loop with their SNP bad.

      In fact the gas lighting going on is orchestrated with BritNats parties taking credit for anything positive the Scotgov does, or has to spend months or years clawing at the walls for things like the re-introduction of the post study visa, or the EU money which was legally Scotland’s and which the English government thieved, be put to given to Scottish farmers.

      I can see why people are really frustrated though that independence has been put on the back boiler, or seemed to be. Not a good idea in any way shape or form.

    81. Colin Alexander says:

      It’s been said on this website btl, that the Articles of Union cannot be altered by UK Parliament.

      The Articles of Union say, amongst other things:

      ” And that…Persons marrying Papists, shall be excluded from, and for ever incapable to inherit, possess, or enjoy the imperial Crown of Great-Britain,”

      UK Parliament legislated in the “The Succession to the Crown Act 2013” that those married to Catholics CAN inherit the throne.

      The point I make is not about catholicism and the Crown. That is just an example.

      The point is: UK Parliament can ignore /change / breach the Articles of Union whenever it suits because UK Parliament is sovereign. But is it still sovereign over Scotland if the people of Scotland vote to say it isn’t sovereign over Scotland?

      What if the SNP sought a democratic mandate to reserve Scottish constitutional matters, to Holyrood?

      So, Holyrood can only be prorogued if Holyrood votes to prorogue. Indy refs or altering Scotland’s constitutional status, such as independence, is a matter for Holyrood.

      Scotland can only leave the EU, if Holyrood approves it. ( assuming still in the EU at this point in time).

    82. jfngw says:


      IDS Christianity, he wants to relieve poverty by sending those he sees as the underclass to meet their maker asap.

    83. manandboy says:

      Excellent, Breeks. Like many, I feel the same way, and think the same thoughts. But, I am aware too that this is only my view.

      A while back, when Ravenscraig was on the go, nearly the whole of Lanarkshire could see the sky light up as the furnaces were opened and the glowing red-hot molten steel would be poured.
      We could all see the glow – but never felt the heat.

      Now substitute Holyrood for Ravenscraig, and I’m sure you’ll get my meaning.

    84. manandboy says:

      Jfngw, you made me laugh! Thanks for that.

    85. jfngw says:


      Totally agree with the sovereignty issue, I asked a similar question yesterday but not quite as elegantly. How can we claim to be sovereign when the basic right of EU citizenship, yes citizenship how more basic can it be, can be removed by another country. That’s not sovereignty it’s vassalage.

    86. manandboy says:

      The Supreme Court, created under the Blair Government in 2009, is located in Guildhall, London.

      Members are appointed by the Queen on the advice of the Prime Minister.

      It replaced The Judicial Committee of the House of Lords.

      It is part of the umbrella organisation known as The Establishment.

      As with other organisations, seats on the Board are reserved for those whose face fits.

      Give me the European Court of Justice any time, especially when I’m on British Territory as in Scotland.

    87. Dan says:

      Babcock named as preferred bidder for £1.3bn Royal Navy frigate contract.

      5 ships (T31) to be assembled at Rosyth.

    88. hackalumpoff says:

      Updated Nana’s links here, comments appreciated.

    89. Republicofscotland says:

      Its the knacker yard for you post Brexit if you’re a poor pensioner.

    90. Capella says:

      Late to the thread so if this is already posted or in Nana’s links apos. From LBC interview – best 10 mins of radio today:

      Legal expert David Allen Green explained to James O’Brien why the government lost their court case on prorogation – and the reason why it happened is very revealing.

    91. Jim Bo says:

      Ahh, classic Wings. How I’ve missed this stuff.

    92. SlimJimmy says:

      I would like to apologise to anyone who was offended by my comment on 11th September at 10.28,and in future, will keep silly thoughts like this to myself.

    93. mike cassidy says:

      manandboy 9.08

      As you say.

      A different world.

      Here he is practicing what he preaches.

    94. gus1940 says:

      Joann Cherry on fire on Victoria D. Show.

      Brilliant performance compared with the poor Tory who was thrown to the lions before her.

      I would love to see a head to head debate between Joanna and Johnson – she would slaughter him.

    95. Cubby says:


      Nice one but sadly true as well.

    96. Cubby says:

      Johnson on TV this morning saying the High court of England said he was not lying to the Queen. Of course they said no such thing. They ruled prorogation was a political matter and not one for the courts to decide upon. So Johnson just doubles down and lies more when he is asked if he lied to the Queen. Johnson trying to rival Trump as the biggest liar.

    97. Nana says:

      The most dangerous woman in the UK on Victoria live
      watch here

    98. galamcennalath says:

      It’s a mess and it’s the fault of the gutter press, UKIP, Farage, far right elements in the Tories, and vulture capitalists smelling a fast buck. And of course Cameron for giving such an ill conceived referendum.

      Leave won by lies and dark money ads.

      It’s also worth remembering the rhetoric of über Brexiteers AFTER their win….

      “There is no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside.” Davis
      “The FTA we will do with the EU should be one of the easiest in human history.” Fox
      “I think we could very easily get a better Trade Deal than we have at the moment.” Carswell

      … IMO they honestly believed that. Totally naive. An obsession with a Trade Deal. Remember that phase? They were in denial about needing a Withdrawal Agreement encompassing an Ireland solution first, they wanted to talk Trade. Remember Canada+, Norway, etc? All the potential future Trade agreements. It was a time of ‘cake and eat it’ and ‘cherry picking’.

      No deal exit was always a possibility but even the ERG, the hardest Brexiteers, were focusing on easy peasy comprehensive trade deals.

      Three years later and those same people reject the negotiated Withdrawal Agreement and no one ever mentions Trade Agreements anymore!

      Labour are complicit. They allowed the Article 50 when no plans had been agreed. Labour could have taken so many sensible positions ranging from total rejection of the Tory Brexit to single market/customs union. They faffed and still faff.

      And our own SNP. Quite honestly, I expected to have Indy three years after EURef returned Leave!

      I accept there has been zero clarity, and clarity about how bad Brexit is will drive Remain-NOs to Yes. I accept the SNP/SG must look reasonable, steady, and competent while everyone else is useless. I still have faith that Indy is close. But jeez, it really does stretch patience!

      In the coming GE the SNP must put Indy foremost, not Brexit. Does anyone still believe Brexit won’t happen? It’s a lost cause. They need to promote Indy as the solution. Add Brexit and Tory polling together and at a UK level it’s over 40%. With FPTP the far right will win and Brexit will be hard. The GE must be about abandoning the sinking UK ship.

    99. Marie M says:

      Breeks @ 8.07

      Great post.

    100. Lochside says:

      Breeks…..excellent post. Very good reflective stuff you’ve been posting recently. Voice of sanity. Keep it up.

    101. SilverDarling says:


      Thank you for that post. Sums up the frustration for some of us of the present situation perfectly and puts into words what I have been thinking and worrying about for the past while.

    102. Nana says:


      oops sorry for earlier comment, forgot to remove the ht bit

      Must watch Alex Salmond show

      The political economy of Brexit (Economy pt.2/3)

    103. manandboy says:


      In other Ulster news, the Government has announced a shot in the arm to iconic shipbuilder Harland & Wolff with a multi-billion pound contract for new Royal Navy frigates,

    104. galamcennalath says:

      ” The Conservative Party isn’t one party, it is in fact three or more. The modern Tory party is made up of Brexit-Ultras (the ERG), Social conservatives (that might be at home in the Christian Democratic parties of Europe), “One nation” Tories (instinctively pro-European and socially liberal) and the sub-divisions of these factions are themselves extensive. The only reason these factions co-exist in the one party is that the electoral system forces them to do so. “

      This aspect of the article is spot on. FPTP means large broad church parties which spend much of their time infighting. Labour are the same.

      WM desperately need PR. It may happen a decade or two after we’ve left!

    105. No dark money or anything else made me vote to leave th Eu. You see I want real independence not to be rid of 1 master to take on 27 others. Telling me what I must do in my own country and those who are telling me are unelectic place people some democracy ???

    106. Sinky says:

      British Broadcasting Corporation TV coverage of the reduced Frigate order has huge Union Jack graphic as background. Can’t remember seeing Saltire backdrop when Scots Gov announces jobs booth

    107. Capella says:

      Listening to the Media Review on R Scotland ATM. Discussing the court case and BREXIT. No explanation on why the Media show is still airing. Last I heard the BBC had pulled it.

    108. Bill Hume. says:

      Blair Paterson @ 1:03
      Unelected? UNELECTED?
      You didn’t vote in the recent European elections then?

    109. Robert Peffers says:

      Now I really didn’t w3ant to comment but only lurk here and I don’t want to pour cold water on the Wings political party idea but have Wingers actually thought this thing through?

      From what I’m reading the answer to my own question has to be that they have not.

      First of all just who will these candidates as list MSPs be and who is it that will choose them?

      Who will provide the deposits for the chosen candidates? Where will the head office of the party be and will there be branches and constituency associations?

      Will the party have membership cards and membership fees? If so who will decide what the membership fees are and will there be concessions for pensioners, people on benefits and under age members?

      Who will choose and vet the candidates in each constituency and what will be the aims of the party and who will decide what the aims are to be?

      Where will the party conferences be held and who will be the delegates? Without all the above how will we know we are not standing leave supporters as candidates? From the comments on Wings there will be mode dissent in the party than we already have here on Wings.

      In other words will the party be democratic or will it be a Rev Stu dictatorship?

      Now I’ll away back to lurking for I see no point in the current SNP BAAADDD! state of Wings at present.

      Just what is the point of another independence party when so many Wingers are anti-FM/SG and SNP for without these so very BAAAADDD! people there isn’t a hope in hell of independence.

      Don’t bother answering for I will not be answering but will continue to read comments.

    110. Confused says:

      I am finding a lot of amusement in the current situation, whatever anyone says.

      I see the REV is a bit tetchy and getting into it personally BTL – I think he is almost burnt-out and who can blame him; he is a rhino upfront, all day, every day, taking the shit from the mad yoons – he has all the bugs hitting his windshield so those of us behind can enjoy the clear air.

      Just read something that had me rolling around – the Scotland-Northern Ireland bridge … !!!

      – its a tactic, when you are in trouble, distract people with “pie in the sky” shit plans, this one straight out of thunderbirds; Cameron just after the banking crisis had Osborne running around telling the journos about, I kid not, “5 year plans” and massive infrastructure projects (- which amounted to “more shit for london”)

      We should run with this – ask that the ScotNornIrn bridge be LINKED DIRECTLY TO THE HS2 as well.

      Ask about sub-contracting the lifting work to Godzilla and the finishing to Moth-RA. Get Iron(y)-Man to cut the ribbon.

      Then take it up a notch : the SOLWAY CANAL (my pet project) to link the north and irish sea; Scotland and England to be linked by a single tunnel with a good quality single track road with passing places, which will be open a full 3 days a week for 5 hours a day.

      Seriously tho, if Scotland can get itself, real fast, a super ferry port for super ferries, blasting over to europe on a daily basis, it might take the sting out of any post indy trade negotiations.

      The chinese are renowned for fast builds. I would also like to see us getting some supeferries like Stena Hollandia or if you want fast – the Francisco catamaran – and the best thing about it is we give the work to – Germany and South Korea, as … all the Scottish yards will be tied up BUILDING FRIGATES FOR THE ROYAL NAVY. (Actions have consequences, you yellow-safety-hatted scum.)

    111. SilverDarling says:

      @Capella 1.11pm

      I understand the changes come into effect later this month with the new schedule.

    112. Terry callachan says:

      To Blair Patterson

      You will get your chance soon
      Once Scotland is independent you will be able to vote in the knowledge that whatever decision Scotland makes about
      Being a member of the EU
      Which currency to use
      Whether to have nuclear weapons
      How much immigration to support
      Etc etc etc

      it will be Scotland that has decided these questions and not another country next door that gets ten votes for every one vote we get

    113. Terry callachan says:


      I agree
      Scotland does not have any ferries to Europe .scandalous , once we are independent we will have them from Aberdeen Dundee and Edinburgh for sure

    114. Contrary says:

      Nice one RevStu on this result for keeping check on the Scot Tories – I hope your further request is taken on board.

      I know no one listens to me, but I want to explain why I suggested on a previous thread why I didn’t thing a Wings party was a good idea – I meant that it wasn’t a good idea at this time – aside from the frustrations of uk politics getting the better of you – the work you do now is far more important for independence than going into politics would be. You may feel stymied by not being able to do much before the referendum is called, but you would be more stymied by crossing over to the political side, there are far more restrictions on what you can and can’t say and do, and the media would have a field day laying into you – I had visions of another Tommy Sheridan evolving. I think a Wings Party would be very welcome once the vote for independence has taken place, or just later. Let the current crisis play itself out; if it doesn’t work in our favour, so be it, not great but a wings party will have made no difference, and potentially could cause you distress. Later, there will likely be a void it needs to fill.

      Even if we were already independent, England going for a no-deal would cause a great deal of disruption, in the current union situation it will be devastating, and I am all for the SNP trying to prevent that. They cannot stop some kind of brexit happening I reckon. The U.K. Government is playing global politics, at our expense, but the fight-back is starting, and I doubt that everything will be going back in the box after, whatever happens.

    115. Baldeagle58 says:

      manandboy says:

      12 September, 2019 at 12:45 pm


      In other Ulster news, the Government has announced a shot in the arm to iconic shipbuilder Harland & Wolff with a multi-billion pound contract for new Royal Navy frigates,

      Eh, would that be the same contract for ‘new Royal Navy frigates’ that have been awarded to Rosyth?
      Babcock was named as the ‘preferred bidder’ for the £1.3Billion contract.

      Tories trying to please all the people again?
      So, which company has been given the contract then?

    116. Ken500 says:

      The % of the vote which each party gets depends on how many Parties candidates standing.

      PR throws up more equal percentage but does not result in the voters intention. The votes result end up not a result corresponding to the electorate wishes. It results in different constituency choice adding to the tally.

      PR gives voters two or so Party/candidate choice. Voters do not understand the system and delute their vote.The lack of understand compromises the system. Voting against their own wishes. Many of the electorate do not understand the system. No one does. It is too complicated.

      FPTP is more simple and democratic despite a non proportion result. The proportion% overall depends on how many Parties/candidates are standing. Irrelevant. It still gives the voters first choice winner.

      PR gives a more % result but gives the second/third choice overall (from various constituencies) The loser wins.

      One person one vote gives the voters the result they want.The % of the electoral vote depends on the number of parties/ candidates standing. If a large number of parties/candidates stand. The % of the vote the majority winning candidate/party is smaller. If a smaller numbers of Parties/candidates are standing. The % of the vote of the winning Party/candidate is higher.

      The % of the vote is irrelevant to get the winning party/candidate the majority electoral wishes. The percentage of the voting proportion. It depends on turnout nos and numbers of parties/candidates standing for election.

      FPTP equation of % different votes cast but it gives the result for what the electoral wants. The voters first choice in each constituency.

      PR is a self fulfilling prophecy of the corresponding % of the electorate. It is less democratic. It does not achieve the outcome of the majority of the voters wishes. FPTP It is a knock out system but corresponds more to the choice of the voters. Their first choice wins in each constituency. Not the second or three choice added together as a % numerically.

    117. manandboy says:

      This is a very good piece by @SebastianEPayne about @DJSkelton’s new book. Confirms the impression that, while the Leave vote represented an important protest, its underlying causes often had to do with other, non-EU related issues.

      * Vote Leave was a grievance vote, a protest vote, by many

      * But the actual grievance was with the Tories

      * Years of neglect, of being overlooked, of being abandoned

      * Grievance + desperation met the EU referendum

      * In June 2016, they saw a chance to hurt the Tories

      * So they took it

      * But the Tories saw an advantage in Leave which suited them

      * EU Offshore Tax Evasion Laws, due in January 2020

      * With Leave, the Tories could dodge a bullet

      * But the UK public would pay a terrible price on Leaving EU

      * Tories thought – f*** the Public

      * The English Establishment must survive – and go on Ruling

      * No matter the cost to the Many – they are expendable

      * This is where we are today

    118. Ken500 says:

      The Tories are once again bribing Ulster for support. Illegal. Disproportionally allowance of funds. Not fair but total corruption. The Tories are corrupt. Always have been and always will be. Never trust a Tory especially in Scotland. The illegal Partition of Ireland for Westminster Tory unionists corruption for support at Westminster. An absolute disgrace and it will not work.

    119. robertknight says:

      Well said breeks.

      I think a great many are beginning to feel as desperate as a character in a Tom Cruise action movie…

      The plane is on a terminal downward spiral and, as the ground is rushing up to meet us, we’re still desperately trying to find that last parachute which we know is in the cabin somewhere, but we just can’t seem to get to it.

      In the meantime, just to add to the sense of imminent disaster, the automated voice from the apparently empty cockpit keeps on repeating “Pull up – pull up – pull up”.

      Tune in on November 1st for the next exiting installment of Escape from Brexit Island

    120. manandboy says:

      Confused confused.

    121. Gary says:

      I fully support the idea of a wings party. Would love to see Stu in the Scottish parliament.
      A pro indy politician with a bit of fight!!!

    122. Capella says:

      @ Robert Peffers – great to hear from you. Many of us were worried about your long absence. So lease do comment regularly even if it only to tell us we’re all dafties. I’m not going to argue with the substance.

      @ Silver darling – thx – I was puzzled as I thought it was immediate. Nobody said a word about it either – omerta. It was a particularly interesting episode following on from the court decision.

    123. Tatu3 says:

      Breeks @ 8.07.
      Great post

    124. manandboy says:

      Stu may be upset, with the usual consequences for his brain, but if so, he will recover soon, with, or even without, any aids to restoration.

      What matters to the Independence movement, is Independence. About that, Stu is unequivocal. So, I hope, is our support for him. I hope too, that our support is unconditional, and kept quite separate from any differences of opinion we may have with him. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. No two of us is the same. Unity in diversity is the way forward.

      In my opinion.

    125. manandboy says:


      From the BBC online news.

      “Boris Johnson revives plan for £15bn bridge from Scotland to Northern Ireland
      Boris Johnson has revived his plan to build a bridge between Northern Ireland and Scotland – saying that it would be a “very good” idea and that it would cost £15bn.

      Speaking to children during his visit to lighthouse tender NLV Pharos on the Thames, Johnson said he had recently been discussing the possibility of constructing a bridge over the Irish Sea. He said:

      [I was talking yesterday] about building a bridge from Stranraer in Scotland to Larne in Northern Ireland – that would be very good. It would only cost about £15bn.

      Johnson originally floated this idea in an interview with the Sunday Times last year. At the time his proposal was considered fanciful, but this week Channel 4 News revealed that government officials have been asked to produce a paper on the costs and benefits of such a plan.

      The original Sunday Times story about Johnson’s proposal provoked a memorable letter to the paper from a retired offshore engineer who said the idea was “about as feasible as building a bridge to the moon”.”

    126. manandboy says:


      Boris obviously hasn’t a clue where Stranraer is.

      Or Belfast for that matter.

      Both are located at the end of a large sea Loch, viz Loch Ryan and Belfast Loch.

      Landfall for any bridge would be in neither Stranraer or Belfast.

      Johnson is an embarrassment. And a dangerous man.

    127. Capella says:

      @ Breeks – I don’t agree with your branding of the SNP as “dismal, pedestrian, unimaginative, uncommunicative, enigmatic and unfathomable.

      You expect them to defend the sovereignty of the Scottish people. The sovereign Scottish people voted NO to independence in 2014. The sovereign Scottish people voted REMAIN in the EU in 2016. The SNP leadership sound as if they respect both of these sovereign votes.

      Support for the SNP and independence has crept up little by little until it is now a majority view. Joanna Cherry has dealt a blow, perhaps a fatal blow, to the Westminster system via the Scottish courts. My guess is that a decisive turning point has been reached and that an opportunity to stage another referendum will come soon.

      Although I am a member of the SNP I don’t uncritically support ALL of their policies. But there is no other vehicle for independence and the direction of travel looks very positive to me.

    128. manandboy says:

      Hey, my mistake. I’m the embarrassment! It’s Stranraer to Larne, not Belfast. Well I got half of it right.

      I should take my medication sooner!

    129. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I thought, once the Daily Mail decided to have a go at them, to look-up the stories of the three Court of Session judges.

      By any judgement, they are “Establishment.” Lord Caloway went to the Edinburgh Academy, then Edinburgh University School of Law; Lord Bruce attended Dollar Academy, then Edinburgh University School of Law. Lord Drummond-Young attended John Watson’s School, Sidney Sussex College Cambridge, then Edinburgh University School of Law (after a spell at Harvard).

      Lords Brodie and Drummond-Young are former Civil Service lawyers.

      If three such Establishment figures can find against the Government, then who are we laymen and women to think anything other than, the Government has been caught bang to rights.

      Scottish Nationalists or Socialists these three learned gentlemen are not.

    130. manandboy says:

      A review of the Court Decision on the prorogation of Parliament, by, ostensibly, Reevul Alderson.

      Worth a read, for example:

      “This case was brought in a Scottish court because at the time the High Court in England was on holiday.

      But that does not diminish the effect of the ruling, as the case was against the actions of the Westminister government which, within the devolution settlement, affects the whole of the UK.

      So the ruling in Edinburgh is binding on the UK government – although this is by no means the end of the legal battle since the case will now be appealed to the UK Supreme Court which will make a definitive decision.”

    131. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Re De Piffle’s notion of the Irish Sea Bridge.

      It would only cost £15 billion he says. The 1.7 mile Queensferry Crossing, over a more inland portion of the Firth of Forth – in much shallower water and a far-less exposed stretch, cost £1.35 billion.

      On that basis, the 22 mile-long North Channel Bridge would cost a minimum of £17.5 billion.

      However, the water is much, much deeper, so that will significantly increase the costs, it will need to be higher, to allow shipping to pass under it and it would be crossing a far-stormier channel.

      Then, of course, there is Beauufort’s Dyke, and the upwards of 1.5 million tonnes of old ordnances dumped there over the years. No engineer in his right mind would attempt to build there.

      Like most of the things De Piffle suggests, it’s pie in the sky and is never going to happen. Even discounting the effects of Beaufort’s Dyke, you wouldn’t try to tunnel there either. It’s a nonsense suggestion.

    132. Bob Mack says:

      Many engineers have ruled out a bridge because of the depth and also because of the millions of tons of high explosives from World war two dumped in the only viable route.It’s a fantasy.

    133. Bob Mack says:



    134. gus1940 says:

      Are there any areas off the coast of England where millions of tons of explosives were dumped?

    135. Bobp says:

      Terry callachan 1.29pm. Its disgusting Scotland has no direct ferry routes to Europe considering Ireland with a smaller population has ferry links from cork to santander and rosslare to cherbourg. This is obviously a decision taken elsewhere to keep Scotland dumbed down. Any sane person would be questioning this crap meted out to us.

    136. Stuart MacKay says:


      There’s the wreck of USS Richard Montgomery which lies off the Isle of Sheppey with an estimated 1400 tonnes of munitions but I don’t think there is anything equivalent to Beaufort’s Dyke where the dumping was deliberate.

    137. kapelmeister says:

      The Times reports that Labour are 33 candidates short in Scotland for a Westminster GE. Plus a mere 7% of Scots give ScotLab leader Richmal Lanyard an approval rating.

      Scottish Labour are in such dire straits they should be called the Knopfler Party.

    138. North chiel says:

      It seems to me that the “ Supreme” court decision on the COS verdict will be critical over the coming weeks and might well give us a clue as to how the “ Britnat establishment “ now intend proceed . If they overrule the Highest civil court in Scotland and Parliament remains suspended then I believe that this signals a “ green light “ for Johnson to proceed with his current “ strategy “ and we can interpret that as a drive towards Brexit ( hard or negotiated it’s still Brexit ) and thereafter whether it’s 31/10 or 31/1 the 2nd strand of any Brexit will be a second drive using every “ tool in the Box” to bind Scotland in the union . If this Brexit occurs on 31/10 then the SNP Government must “ take the gloves off” and reveal all as regards how they will proceed to return full sovereignty to Holyrood with Independence. ( whether it is a GE election mandate ratified via referendum and or legal/ constitutional moves to withdraw from the Treaty of union citing the “ powergrab” , other breaches of the union treaty etc ) .
      However, if the SC decision upholds the verdict of the COS & Parliament is recalled then I would interpret that as a signal that the Britnat establishment have rejected the Tory right wing coup and Johnson “ government” No Deal objective. Johnson would have to resign and the question is who would take over ? ( will the moderates regain control or would another hard right PM be “ installed” ?)
      I have noticed a slight change in the Propaganda coming from the “ state broadcaster “ and other “ news” outlets . It would appear that the rhetoric is ever so slightly moving against the Johnson government and towards the ( currently porouged) opposition parties. A Corbyn led government would have been unthinkable for the Britnat establishment some weeks and months ago , however now I am not so sure ? If the establishment decide that Brexit is “ a risk too much” to the “ precious precious union” ( and make no mistake a united Ireland& independent Scotland is looking more likely by the day under a “ No deal/ hard” Brexit) , then a “ labour led “ minority “/ and/or “ coalition” government could be an option to reduce the risk of the “ break up “of the U.K. and a 2nd EU referendum could come into play .
      We have to wait for the “Supreme “ court decision . Any overruling of the Court of Session will give us the “ clue” as to the current “ thinking” of the Britnat establishment.

    139. Stuart MacKay says:

      De Piffle does not exactly have a good track record when it comes to building bridges. Expect the cost to increase to £175 billion and then be abandoned.

    140. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      kapelmeister @ 15:24,

      Nice try, but NorthBritLab are no longer local heroes, and alas the only sounds they can produce are dissonance and random noise! =grin=

    141. Cubby says:

      Scozzie@ narrow windows 10 Sept 2.33pm

      Apologises – you very kindly took the time to post some comments for me to consider but unfortunately at the time I missed them. I would just like to say you made some points which were well made and I am giving some thought to them.

    142. Colin Alexander says:

      “On the matter of the process which must be followed to make the referendum legitimate, Nicola Sturgeon is in full agreement with those who are determined to ensure that a referendum doesn’t happen.” Peter A Bell 11/09/2019.

      In other words: The Unionists insist on an s30 and tell us we’re no getting one. The FM insists on an s30 when she’s been told we’re no getting one.

      They’ve never listened to the FM when she demanded talks on an s30 or a seat at the Brexit negotiation table. Yet, she thinks they’ll listen to her next time.

      It’s crazy.

    143. Stuart MacKay says:

      Rev. Stu kudos for using a GPL licenced theme for this site but Vita has not been updated since 2009. How about upgrading to one which allows threaded comments?

    144. manandboy says:


      “But Johnson also sees reasons to be cheerful. In the same Q&A, he said he sees the mood changing in the EU, after holding meetings with his counterparts in Germany, France and Ireland. “The ice floe is cracking, there is movement under the keel of these talks and we can do this thing absolutely,” he said.” (Bloomberg mail)

    145. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Oh really, BoJo?

      The backstop was put in at May’s request. The EU27 preferred an EU border down the Irish Sea, but that was inconvenient for keeping the DUP onside. Then the Tories reneged even on the backstop. English exceptionalism and Empire retro fantasising being the order of the day. It was cherrypickin’ time in Old London Town, so how dare the EU, defending their founding principles, callously rain on the DUP+Tory candyfloss parade?

      The whole conundrum could so very easily be sorted at source by having a new EU referendum, but will that happen? Instead we have to endure whole oceans of UKGov blame shifting, rank incompetence and reality-denial.

      Please, please, someone get Scotland outta here!

    146. dadsarmy says:

      From that: “The litigants say the proceedings are in Scotland because Inner House Court of Session has a power not available to English Courts (nobile officium) which they say would allow the court, if it found in their favour, to sign letter mandated by the Benn Act if PM refuses to do so.


    147. dadsarmy says:


      As Lord Hope wrote in the foreword to my book on the nobile officium, “if the jurisdiction is to serve its purpose, it needs to be properly understood and to be applied in the right way… the courts need to be encouraged to use it”. I would agree, and add that practitioners need to be encouraged to use it, and to use it properly.

    148. Republicofscotland says:

      Heard on a radio show today which was focusing on Operation Yellow Hammer, that Yellow Hammer is actually an anagram of Orwell Mayhem.


    149. dadsarmy says:

      There’s some reading there!

    150. dadsarmy says:

      Oh aye, point of that Lord Hope quote by the way is that he was a President or Vice president of the UKSC before he retired. And he endorses the judicious use of nobile officium if you’ll pardon the kind of pun.

    151. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Nana @ 16:54,

      Thanks as always for the latest links.

      I’m just an innocent bystander in all this, but what seems to lie at the core of the Lordships’ decisions was the absence of a signed affidavit from anyone in UKGov attesting to its motive behind the prorogation, as revealed in that fascinating clip linked to upthread @ 10:22 by Capella (for which due thanks!).

      It seems that no-one in London could be found to put their legal neck on the line by signing a simple assurance that the UKGov junta was acting in good faith. And we all know why.

      Including the judges. And to their great credit, unlike such as Sumption, they didn’t “pass by on the other side”.

    152. call me dave says:

      Missed all the news but catching up to hear that the Cherry group have been in the courts asking the judiciary to say that if Boris wont sign the document requesting an extension as per the Parliament Bill then someone else can do it on parliaments behalf.

      Apparently Scots law can pre-empt an unlawful act where English Laws don’t have an equivalent option.

      Your Madge!
      Can you put your ‘John Henry’ on this please we’re in a wee bit of a hurry? 🙂 … We wish.

      Gove busy rewriting Yellow Hammer to quell the populations fears.

      Marvellous links again Nana. 🙂

    153. Nana says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      links are here Robert as well as in the comments section which I’ve been trying to keep updated for days

    154. dadsarmy says:

      Anyways, there’s some errors around about the Tnn and the history, so here it is.

      There were 13 Type 26 frigates promised to be built on the Clyde, 8 of them full anti-sub (FF – ASW) frigates, and 5 of them a lower spec General purpose (GPFF).

      There were delays in the design, and because of costs with the full T26 running to £1.1 billion each, the 5 GPFF T26 were effectively cancelled, and in their place 5 lower spec Type 31 put out for tender at a fixed price of £250 million each.

      Meanwhile because of the delay, and the 2009 15 year TOBA (Terms Of Business Arrangement) betweem BaE and the UK Gov, BaE had to either be paid for doing nothing, or be paid to build something, hence the 5 OPV (Offshore Patrol Vessels) – which are more expensive than they would be, but it covers the TOBA costs.

      5 T31e with the “e” added later don’t ask me why are now with the Babcock consortium as the preferred bidder. Frankly BaE didn’t really have an interest even though a bidder, it prefers open-ended contracts which is why UK Gov want to give it less contracts and business anyway – and in 2024 its TOBA runs out and it’s just another shipbuilder rather than the UK Gov’s bought and paid for one.

      So for myths from both indy and anti-SNP unionists like UKDJ

      1). There were NOT 13 T31 originally ordered
      2). 18 ships are NOT being built on the Clyde
      3). The 13 ships being built on the Clyde being 8 T26 and 5 OPV are NOT the same tonnage and jobs as 13 T26, an OPV is way smaller and less complex even if an impressive warship in its own right
      4). The total of 18 ships even including the T31 are NOT the same tonnage as 8 T26 ASW and 5 T26 GPFF as originally promised, nor as much jobs, nor as much money.
      5). The original 13 T26 being built on the Clyde was being built on the Clyde. The T31e are only reasonably guaranteed to be assembled at Rosyth, nobody knows how many sections will be built in Scotland.

      If UKDJ wants to try to insist that 8 T26 and 5 OPVs are the same work as 13 T26 originally promised, as it has in the past, then let it. And if it wants to portray 18 warships in total but not all sections built in Scotland as being the same or better than those 13 T26 with hulls actually being built on the Clyde, then let it. An OPV really really doesn’t equate to a T26!

      But don’t join it in stretching the truth, same as sometimes warships are stretched to give a longer length for the same basic design hull!

      I had postings deleted there, perfectly innocent postings, ones that pointed out errors in the author’s pieces, which is why I don’t even bother trying to post there any more.

    155. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Just a thought, might nobile officium be a means of the SNP getting a Section 30 order through?

      “Well M’Lud, we have a majority of the Scottish MPs in favour of this; we have a mandate from the Scottish Parliament to hold a referendum – but the UK Government refuses to sign a Section 30 order.

      “Would you mind signing here please M’Lud, thank you very much.”

      If nothing else, the Toerags would immediately agree to Independence, just to be rid of us.

    156. Frank Gillougley says:

      Jesus did indeed weep

      R4 Evan Davis just there – a 5min slot on the question of ‘Will Brexit break Britain?’ – and the contributors? (drum roll)

      Sarah Smith and Douglas Alexander (who he?)

      – Well, that’s me all genned up then.

    157. dadsarmy says:

      Terms Of Business Arrangement = Terms Of Business Agreement!

      I keep doing that.

    158. call me dave says:


      A woman in England on big Auntie’s tv live news extolling the virtues of the SNP Gov and how hard working they were to reach a ‘confidential deal’ with the drug company for the Cystic Fibrosis
      medicine now only available in Scotland.

      Long interview too. Hope many darn Sarf were listening to that. 🙂

    159. Graeme says:

      “If nothing else, the Toerags would immediately agree to Independence, just to be rid of us.”

      It might be the only way they’ll get their Brexit

      Come on England you can go it alone it’s not so scary, just think no Barnett formula, no ungrateful whinging haggis munchers sponging off you no meddling Scottish court rulings, go on you know you want to

    160. Robert Louis says:

      Breeks at 0807am,

      Your comment states EXACTLY how I feel. Sooooo angry at the SNP leadership. Why are the SNP not in court defending our sovereignty, instead of trying to thwart the stupidity of Liar Johnson in London??

      Your comment is sooo good, I hope you do not mind, if I reproduce it in full below, so hopefully more folk will see it.

      Comment by Breeks below [my bolding];

      Another view on yesterday’s events:

      Too much shit stirring going on here.

      I don’t want to get involved really, but my tuppence worth is that Rev Stu’s talk of a Wings Party and increasingly cynical attitude towards the SNP’s painful timidity is symptomatic of a deep rooted exasperation at one open goal after another being passed over by our Independence Party which only has a threadbare interest in keeping Scotland in Europe, and is incomprehensibly chiselling away at the mandate for Independence which Brexit dropped into our laps.

      Rev Stu, as I see it, is taking some of the initiative which the SNP don’t want to touch, and mooting the possibility of a Pro-Indy List Party to provide YES voters with a mechanism for winning more List Seats at Holyrood, and yes, granted, maybe giving the SNP a shot across the bows to be more proactive or risk having their thunder stolen, but it’s a benign initiative.

      Beyond the implicit exasperation, which half the damned country incidentally shares, Rev’s Wings Party is a benign intervention that meant to assist Independence by shifting the equilibrium in Proportional Representation Ballot in a positive direction for Independence. Something the SNP, without implied criticism, cannot easily do themselves.

      Yes, of course there is a risk of splitting the SNP vote where things go wrong, but with studious management and cooperation, those risks can be kept to a minimum. I refuse to believe Rev Stu would advance any initiative to injure the Indy cause deliberately, and whether you love them or hate them, the SNP is an essential component in getting the deed done and Independence over the line.

      If Rev Stu’s initiative provoked debate, well first, it was meant to, but more poignantly, please point me towards any comparable SNP initiative to change the statement, shake the snow globe, and accelerate demand for Independence and saving Scotland from a bleak fate outside Europe.

      I know the SNP doesn’t like criticism, I know know SNP acolytes get angry with criticism they cannot rebut, and I know we are all desperate to secure tangible progress towards Independence, but for all that empathy I have for other people’s frustration, I cannot imagine any retrospective review of these last three years since the Brexit Referendum, or indeed last five years since the YES Referendum returning a positive critique of our Independence strategy. It has been dismal, pedestrian, unimaginative, uncommunicative, enigmatic and unfathomable.

      Harsh truth be told, I think the strategy’s only success was in quickly dampening the pro Indy momentum and enthusiasm which spilled over from the YES Referendum, sent 53 SNP MP’s to Westminster, swelled SNP membership, and hung on to unite Scotland to defy the BritNat pundits over Brexit. The only thing which has been “managed” by our radical leaders are our expectations.

      We are passengers in the Brexit bus, and peering out the window as we pass one junction and bus stop after another which would let us out of this craziness, but time after time we do nothing. We shout how terrible it is but do nothing. We say it’s unacceptable then accept it.

      I understand 100% why Northern Ireland has a Backstop. I understand 100% why neither Ireland nor Europe will compromise on the Backstop. I do not understand 100% why Scotland doesn’t have a Backstop given that our Constitutionally Sovereign electorate rejected Brexit, and thus Scotland’s forced removal from Europe will be unlawful and unconstitutional.

      Where is our Backstop? Nowhere! Because we couldn’t even talk our way in to the negotiations.

      We all sit here, idling in our frustration, fermenting our anger and our frustration, and what do we have to show for it? Pete Wishart wants to be Speaker again, Ian Blackford says we won’t be Brexited, Nicola says we will but we’ll rejoin, Joanna wins a titanic battle in the Law Courts to un-prorogue Parliament which was in stalemate for 3 years. Nice, but why aren’t we in court defending our Sovereign Remain mandate? And everybody tells me everything is great because the glacial swing towards Indy in the polls will soon offset the EU citizens and U/18’s being allowed to vote in a referendum which Westminster is already telegraphing that it will dispute.

      It’s not a belief I share personally, but I see quips on Twitter and BTL comments speculating on whether the SNP has been knobbled. I choose to believe that isn’t true, but it feels like are reaching a state of affairs where the outcomes wouldn’t be any different if they were.

      We seem to be sacrificing so much, so cheaply, for this vision in white of a spiritual referendum we’ll hold on a sunny day when everybody smiles and votes for Independence. That’s the morphine effect. We actually need some urgent surgical intervention to stop the bleeding and life support to prevent our systems shutting down, and we’re running out of time on the slab.

      Defend our Sovereignty. Please. Before it’s too late.

      And stop this snidey bickering. Meet and have a punch up in a car park or something, and both of you get back on point once it’s out of your system.

    161. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Stuart MacKay

      That was suggested not long after this site came into being as it would make the sites owner job far more time consuming than it need be for him. Only 24hrs in a day.

    162. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      cynicalHighlander @ 19:32,

      I don’t know about “off-the-peg” website software, but there are e-mail readers which do that kind of thing entirely automatically. And it seems to be no problem with the websites of James Kelly and WGD, for example. It would certainly be a useful feature.

      Or is the issue more a question of the effort of conversion of all the existing postings? That might be harder to automate.

      (But apologies if I’m merely exposing my ignorance of the matter!)

    163. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      It comes down to 10’s versus 100’s just my take on it.

    164. David says:

      Bit different was on a bus today Thursday packed standing room only .Young lady sitting next to me looked early 20s 2 walking sticks .I made a joke watch we don’t stand on your feet .
      She said I would not feel it anyway I have MS .Everyone tried to make extra room .
      She said no don’t when she was diagnosed she decided there and then no tears and take it a day at a time .
      She was on her way to Hospital for a check up .
      She got to me don’t know her but what a brave and inspiring young woman .All the best

    165. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Sorry being so late to the party but work for the cashflow has priority.. 🙂

      Maybe I’m seeing this wrong but I do get the impression that Joanna Cherry is the only SNP “leader” who has a fire in her belly. She doesn’t flinch or hesitate, she works out a strategy and then goes for the jugular of WM. Uses the courts, gets WM on the backfoot and WINS..! She knows what sovereignty is and is prepared to use it. 🙂

      JC does what BREEKS/Rev Stu/Peter A Bell are begging the SNP to do, be more assertive, create opportunities, be active, draw the dagger and use it.

      You don’t win with nice leaflets.

      Good post from Breeks and I entirely agree.

    166. McDuff says:

      Breeks 8.07
      Excellent post breeks although you risk being labelled a troll.

    167. Liz g says:

      David @ 8.37
      It’s called Being Human David, and to make sure that young Lady has the care and treatment she needs is why we do what we do. A better Scotland… Aye xx
      Graft Midgiehunter @ 8.43
      Been thinking the same thing…. Like the song says ” Give me hope Joanna” 🙂

    168. Cubby says:

      Andrew Bridgen Tory ERG Billy Bunter lookalike on C4 news basically saying the Scots judges were put under pressure by Nicola Sturgeon, that they did not come to an independent decision and the SNP should, like the Tories, respect the separation, between the judiciary and the legislator.

      ” I think there will be a suspicion that political pressure may have been placed on them and it’s interesting that it’s the Scottish higher court that has done this and turned over a decision of a lower court.

      This guy is a great boon to Scottish independence. An anti Scotland rabble rouser. Even the most senior judges in Scotland cannot be trusted to do Englands bidding is his message.

      What a total balloon.

    169. Ken500 says:

      Hi Mr Peffers hope you are keeping fine.

      Even voting for a Wings candidate will not solve the question of a Agreement for a legal IndyRef. When to go. It will still have to be negotiated by others? If a Party is formed it could be relative small but have to conform to Electoral rules. Re vetting etc. It would require many organisational skills funding quite quickly. The already elected Parties receive support funding. Westminster parties receive ‘short money’ funding in proportion of the numbers of members/candidates elected.

      Parties who stand for election are required to have a manifesto. The Wings Party members elected, as relative ‘Independents’ they could vote against the SNP on any policies. Policies which are supported by the majority of the voters. (SNP). They could conceivably vote with the unionists parties on day to day business. It might not be as smooth or easy as some people believe. The Parties which support Independence, also have to attend to day to day business.

      The Wings list MP’s (green or other) could hold the balance of power and vote against SNP day to day policies. Would a one interest (Independence) candidate conform to electoral standards/rules as per representation. They would be Independents (maverick) voted in for personality rather than policies. Except Independence supporting.

      Would enough voters recognise whom a Wings candidate is standing? Or would it confuse a necessary majority. Could it possibly split the SNP/Wings vote and let more unionists in? D’Hond’t anything can happen, it seems. Depending or turnout or number of candidates standing. A mystery? Could it split the Indy supporting votes. Green/SNP. Dilute support. Get less successful number of votes required for a successful candidate/party. Just seems so complicated. To get the right total tally.

      The SNP have achieved a majority before, if enough people vote for it. Depending on the electorate. If enough voters turn out to vote. Support for SNP/Independence is increasing consistently. That is a known.

      Change the electoral system. To make it more simple. It is too complicated for most people. No one knows how it works to vote in their candidate. Trying to game it. Voting for candidates and parties they can’t stand. Hardly democratic.

    170. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      My my Breeks. What a long post – and not a constructive word in it.

      So,what’s your plan.Do tell.

      Are you the guy that advised the Jacobite troops at Culloden to charge down into the bog where the Hanoverians could pick them off at leisure. I wonder who’s side he was on.

      No, please. Your plan?

      UDA is it? Or we demand independence because we demand independence?

      Is it Stu’s plan of list independence candidates. An idea well worth considering.Some of us sent such an idea to the SNP last year.As you do.It is the only body that can make such a thing work. Perhaps Stu talked to the SNP as well?

      But then again if we have a referendum before the next Scottish Election we won’t need it.

      And a referndum is our right and what we want. So any suggestion of going for anything else dependent on us not getting a referendum is a premature concession to the Uk which weakens our case. NO UK PM has said we will NOT get a referendum. Nor has any leader of the opposition. They have implied they will delay it or “oppose” it. But we will get one.

      I joined this battle 60 years ago this month. We were polling less that 1% at that point. But even then I saw the false friends. And I saw the good and decent folk drawn into divisonism by them. Any person who imagines that the UK state hasn’t deeply infiltrated our movement is suffering from dangerous naivety. Understandable impatience is being deliberately managed into destructive division. Some folk who should know better have lost the thread. And some “friends” are smugly applauding them and ecouraging them.

      So where are we?

      Well the SNP is so far ahead in the polls that it is almost out of sight. Latest polls show us winning all Scottish seats at a General Election (I would think the best we can do is 57 out of 59). Despite continuous and furious SNPbaad in virtually all the media independence is now the majority choice. (My, my how badly the SNP is doing, eh? we should be…..doing what exactly).It looks very much like we will hold the balance of power in Westminster by November which would put us in a hugely powerful position. Legislation to legally support a referendum is going through process at the moment. This is planned for the second half of next year (good idea, after a summer campaign)but may be brought forward in the case of a “No deal” brexit. Meanwhile some of us are out round the doors already,identiying support and distributing leaflets (from SNP HQ)in which Independence is the major message. Not sitting in front of computers typing defeatism (or “shite” if you prefer a more telling description)

      The sad thing is that not so long ago everybody in our centre every day was talking about what Wings was saying.No longer the case. And lots of genuine contributors are now absent.

    171. cynicalHighlander says:


      That SNP majority was a one off and will never happen again the yoons will see to that.

    172. barpe says:

      I’m new to this, but how will the yoons see to it that the SNP don’t get a majority?

      Serious question, I simply don’t understand.

    173. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      cynicalHighlander at 9.33

      Any evidence to support this ludicrous assertion?

    174. PacMan says:

      I lurk on this site and only post occasionally because I don’t really have any thing to say that hasn’t already been posted. On the particular on going subject of the SNP v proposed WoS Party I don’t want to muddy the waters but I want to mention a few points that I hope people don’t take offence to or jump on.

      Firstly, I do honestly believe that the SNP is the national party of Scotland and it’s aim to gain independence is to represent all strands of Scottish opinion is more than just empty rhetoric. They are trying to respect both the No result in 2014 and in 2016 where the majority of Scots voted to remain in the EU.

      I always believe that its strategy to gain independence is to treat this as a legal/bureaucratic process where they have to slowly and painfully go through every avenue before they can make their claim for independence so they don’t leave give their opponents any room themselves to be attacked by their opponents. In short, they are slowly and deliberately making a watertight case for independence that can’t be derailed in any way.

      That sounds a logical, coherent and rational strategy to take. However, there is a danger that in doing this events overtake them and all that hard work is nothing but a waste in time. The case in point is what is happening now with Brexit where the events are fluid and can turn in any way that nobody, even those who are driving events, know what will happen.

      The SNP do not support Brexit but the only way to stop Brexit could be to take the least worst option which is a soft Brexit which keeps the damage to a minimum and satisfy both sides of the argument. If that happens and it does turn out to cause minimum damage, I just can’t see any appetite amongst the Scottish public for another lengthy and potentially damaging constitutional debate that Scottish indy could cause. With Yellowhammer, they see the consequences of Brexit but the same could be said with indy. In the event of a soft Brexit with minimal disruption, how hard will it to be for people to take the risk of further potential disruption?

      Therefore, the only way that the Scottish public would be in favour of Scottish independence if there was a chance that it would be better than the mess that a hard/no deal Brexit would inevitably bring. In short, they will take a chance that it is the best of two evils.

      The SNP can’t actively take the course of supporting in any way that scenario as they will be accused of exploiting the situation for their own ends. However, in trying to do the right thing, the SNP could be so preoccupied by this that they will overlook opportunities that could be beneficial to the independence movement.

      It makes sense that there is another strand in the independence movement that is in no way involved in this to give a fresh perspective that can benefit the indy cause. Lets be honest as well, the SNP is the establishment in waiting in Scotland and has to be above the gutter fighting of politics that gets arguments won. We saw that with the embarrassing ‘Stairheid rammy’ with NS and Johan Lamont before indyref. If the SNP wants to win the trust of a majority of the Scottish people when they can’t act like that. They need somebody else to do that and the proposed WoS can fill that part. That will work of course as long as the SNP and WoS are distant enough not to cause damage to the SNP.

      lastly, it makes no sense to have all your eggs in one basket so it is logical to have a plan B, so to speak. My personal view is that the way this site and it’s relationship towards the SNP doesn’t sit well with me but I am one person and my opinion is just an opinion, one of many.

    175. Bob Mack says:


      At least I’m applauding you as a friend,till I can prove your an enemy.

      The one guy who criticises you is the same guy who tried to belittle people who don’t agree with his blinkered insight into everything SNP.

      Everybody else is a fifth columnist who has to pass and receive his approval.Screw him.

      Your post was brilliant and thoughtful whilst his is churlish and about self grandisement.

      That’s you by the way Dave McEwen Hill.

      Puffed up by your own arrogance.

    176. David says:

      Liz and Graft thanks for your comments don’t know her a brave wee soul on a busy bus .Heading for a check up .
      Did not want any fuss or people making room .
      Only in her 20s no feeling in her legs MS walking sticks told herself when diagnosed no tears one day at a time .
      What bravery .She got to me been thinking about her all day.

    177. Cubby says:

      Colin Alexander@4.02pm

      Back to your same old misleading S30 crap Mr Alexander. I’ll tell you what is also crap you and your let’s debate comments. You are proved wrong – you ignore go on to the next thread and rinse repeat your misleading comments.

      Non stop Nicola Sturgeon SNP/Scotgov baaad all the time. Please don’t any one tell me this chancer has the right to critical comment. He is a charlatan – that is not genuine critical comment. Thats Daily Mail journalism – except they don’t pretend to support Scottish independence.

      “It’s crazy” you say . What’s crazy is that anyone can even think you support independence.

    178. dadsarmy says:

      There’s still people around, you know, who want more powers, a more powerful Holyrood, but not Independence. Same as in Indy Ref 1.

      Just thought I’d point that out.

    179. Bob Mack says:

      Why are people missing from this site?

      The answer is obvious. Your not allowed to think for yourself. Any opinion other than the “bully boys” tag team is verbotten.

      I wish they would start their own mutual admiration club,and allow those for whom freedom of thought is not a negative t,o debate openly without constant infantile accusations of disloyalty.

      Argument is one thing,badgering is quite another.

      I bet they wear SNP logo

    180. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Bob Mack at 9.55

      Good stuff, Bob
      What is you have done for independence?

      Haven’t heard even one sensible position or proposal from you ever.

      That’s because you haven’t got any. Did you think I was talking about you?

      Some folk give themselves away all the time.

    181. Cubby says:

      Bob Mack@10.15pm

      Hi Bob, I gave you credit in your earlier post for having the courage to name Dave McEwan Hill as the subject of your wrath. Not so in this post. So who are the “bully boys” tag team in your post. Did your courage desert you and what have the poor” bully boys” done to deserve your wrath.

    182. RobertTheTruth says:

      This how good DMcE-H is at interpreting the mood and achieving success:

      ‘…Three years later he was her (Winnie Ewing’s) election agent in a failed bid to retain the seat in a general election, an experience he remembers proudly…’ (!!!)

      ‘…Today, both men campaign daily in Argyll – McEwen-Hill is confident the referendum will be passed…’

      ‘If Scotland votes No it will never again get the chance to vote Yes, McEwen Hill says. “They’ll make sure of that, the London crowd.” ‘

      And so it goes on. Now claiming that no-one talks of WoS in his fiefdom – well they wouldn’t around him, would they?

      How many times has he been right about the lay of the land?

      I believe that he is absolutely genuine in his desire for Independence. I believe he genuinely thinks the SNP are the best route because the SNP have been the most enduring relationship of his adult life. And that goes for those few who get irrationally angry at any criticism of ‘their’ party. It seems bonkers to those of us who are not tied to a dogmatic way of getting what you want.

      But, DMcE-H is poor at reading the current mood and SNP has changed markedly over the last 5 years. It is now stuffed to the gunnels with folk who see a nice easy life in Holyrood and Westminster. Not all, but they are in positions of influence, they are loud in social media and they are hungry for power.

      Some of us see that and that is why we are cynical and disillusioned.

      What use 50+ seats and an Indy majority in Holyrood if you do nothing with them? So the SNP one notes keep on trying to save the UK from Brexit and take away the main driver for Independence and the rest of us will try as many other options available to achieve Independence.

    183. Liz g says:

      Pac Man @ 9.47
      What a well thought out and insightful post..
      I could only add… In the interest of taking the conversation farther ……

      If we here on Wings take the view that this site and the Wee Blue Book had a significant influence on Indy Ref One!
      Then it’s no that far fetched to say that when the Rev got on back on board with the movement and we went to the 2015 GE he also played a part in the 57 SNP MPs?… Aye…

      Then in 2016 he put the full weight of this site towards SNP both votes because there was a chance to repeat the 2011 landslide.
      In return he asked,nor expected, not a thing from the SNP or it’s members!
      So it seems to me that he has earned the right to, at the very least, a hearing on his own blog if he has worked out an alternative way to keep the British Nationalist parties out of Holyrood.

      (Having said that,honesty compels me to add…
      While the Rev seemingly not asking for or expecting any thanks for his role in the SNP vote share or anything else from them…And certainly bloody well got none… I was stunned at the SNPs warm attitude to Kezzia Dugdale after the Court case! It was not a thing to do with them and they could have said nothing or if pushed something vanilla.. It’s not Dugdale who punted , and punted, votes for the SNP these last years it was Wings)

      We all know that he has a keen understanding of the political landscape and we’ve all spent hours on here at no cost to anyone who doesn’t choose to contribute.
      I’d say that when he floats an idea we should all be willing to un pack it and see if it fits Scotland and ONLY Scotland, first, last and always!!
      And we should do so as we’ve always done …
      Despite what other’s who are not here say else where…

      Scotland wouldn’t be Scotland if her people didn’t push the boundaries…. And neither would the modern world either for that matter.
      We’ve all looked at what’s possible to do in almost every other area.
      Let’s turn our gimlet eye on Holyrood?
      Because it is, as I think I’ve demonstrated,pretty safe to say the Rev is no threat to the SNP… Only the Union…
      And that’s a page we all want to be on!

    184. Hamish100 says:

      Bob Mack

      Your posts are so obvious.

    185. Bob Mack says:

      @Dave McEwen Hill,

      Actually I don’t care what you think. You think your the only guy to wear down shoe leather going round doors of taking people to vote for the SNP or Indy ? I’ve stood outside polling stations taking abuse for Indy and the SNP. You think nobody else has converted former no to yes? Your attitude to non SNP members wouldn’t convince a flea to live on a dog. Your obsessed.

      You sound more like a cult member. They are dangerous extremists who hate new ideas or individual original thought. Just like you.


      Since you ask Cubby,you appear to be limited.You are a walking SNP handbook without a trace of original thought in your head,.You are a walking talking SNP billboard unable to grasp that one and a half million who voted for Indy were not members of the SNP. Put that in your pipe.

      Get a grip you two. It is you and people like you destroying this site but your too immersed in your own enjoyment at criticising everybody to grasp that fact.

      Constructive comment?/I’ve had more from a housebrick.

    186. Bob Mack says:

      @Hamish 100,

      Right on cue. Another one. Only comes when the gangs there to help. Back to your Noddy books Hamish

    187. boris says:

      Greenock born, Fiona McLeod Hill, is reputed to have provided Theresa May with the reply to Nicola Sturgeon request seeking permission for another Scottish independence referendum, “Now is not the time”

    188. mike cassidy says:

      If you’re bored by the arguing

      then this is just the teeshirt for you.

    189. Cubby says:

      It’s not that long ago that independence supporters who were of the glass half empty nature were always bemoaning the polls being stuck at 45% and it was all the SNPs fault and saying Sturgeon is useless. Pretty much the same as the Daily Mail, the Scotsman and all the rest of the Britnat press kept saying.

      Now the polls have shifted in the right direction the reason for their dissatisfaction is something else.

      Winning elections, getting a majority for independence is still not good enough. Like little kids they shout I want independence and I want it yesterday and if I don’t get it I will stamp my feet and make a noise. Boo hoo. That bad Sturgeon doesn’t do what I want.

    190. Bob Mack says:


      No Cubby ,just no. Most people with a degree of political savvy know we are missing perhaps our greatest opportunity at independence,caused by Brexit. I can give you their names if you wish,but the most important one is the owner of this site who seems pretty accurate most of the time

      You again follow the SNP cult of Nicola line because that’s clearly all you can offer. Anybody who disagrees again has to face your insults and displeasure, As Denis Healy once said “It’s like being mauled by a g umsy sheep”

      I’m a Clinical Psychologist to trade, and I know the pitfalls of becoming too immersed in any doctrine.

    191. Cubby says:

      Bob Mack@10.59pm

      “You are a walking SNP handbook without a trace of original thought in your head”

      Now now Bob you seem to be going for the offensive personal insults. Is that because when we debated you always lost and basically are a poor loser.

      Bob, I didn’t even know there was an SNP handbook because as I have said to you before I am not an SNP member. I hold no loyalty or affection for any political party and I do not know Dave Mc Ewan Hill. So the conclusion I can only draw from this is you are calling me a liar. Now you are entitled to your opinion that I do not have a trace of original thought in my head but calling me a liar. I think you should apologise.

      I have never personally insulted you or called you a liar.

    192. Bob Mack says:


      It’s not a personal offensive insult. It a actually what you display. Whether it not you are a liar,only you can know.

    193. mike cassidy says:

      “savaged by a dead sheep”

    194. dadsarmy says:

      “Breathe deep the gathering gloom,
      Watch lights fade from every room.
      Bedsitter people look back and lament,
      Another day’s useless energy spent.
      Impassioned lovers wrestle as one,
      Lonely man cries for love and has none.
      New mother picks up and suckles her son,
      Senior citizens wish they were young.
      Cold hearted orb that rules the night,
      Removes the colours from our sight.
      Red is grey and yellow white.
      But we decide which is right.
      And which is an illusion?”

    195. Bob Mack says:

      @Mike Casxidy,

      Dead,gumsy, ===
      The injury inflicted is the same____nil.

    196. Liz g says:

      Dave McEwan Hill..
      Please believe me… My only agenda is to inform you of my recent experience, I’m glad you listened in Perth and you stayed… I’ve no notion of getting into a debate.. You’ve enough answered ye tonight!! 🙂

      Last Friday night I was socialising with a group of 7 ladies all close friend’s.
      All SNP members and some are office bears in their branch…
      They come from across 3 mibbi 4 different branches…
      None are Wingers, all are seasoned activists…
      I was the only Winger and non SNP member.

      They know fine well about Wings and where he’s at currently.T
      They are very supportive and will/ would campaign for a SNP 1 /Wings 2 no matter what the official line of their party.
      We discussed it at length and I didn’t initiate it,they were keen to ask me…
      These Women are very connected to the wider Yes movement up and down the Country but like you said … Don’t discuss Wings at their branch..
      So it’s mibbi a mistake to say Wings it not being discussed!
      Among the Women who were vocal enough to pause the GRA he certainly is… And among the people they campaign towards he certainly will be if they’ve a thing to say about it…

    197. Bob Mack says:


      Reminds me of one of my favourite quotes

      ” A great deal of intelligence goes into ignorance, when the need for illusion is deep”

    198. Cubby says:

      Bob Mack@11.31pm

      Bob how many times do I have spell out to you I am not an SNP member and and hold no affection for any political party. We previously agreed to disagree and accepted we hold different views but you now suddenly start attacking me with personal insults.

      How would you like it if I said you were a liar and your clinical physiologist trade is just a lie.

      “Anyone who disagrees has to face your insults and displeasure” no sorry wrong. When did I insult you Bob. So your assertion falls right away. In fact you are the one doing all the personal attacks. So can I suggest you show some good grace and apologise for your personal attack.

      PS as ever you do not put in a time reference when posting and referring to me.

    199. Liz g says:

      Me @ 11.47
      Oh and Dave, I forgot to add…
      Like the man who was going to St Ives..
      All 7 ladies were naming a fair few other’s…most of whom felt the same way…
      I know I’m being vague and it’s no hard numbers I’m offering.
      ( on the wrong site I know, but whit can ah say 🙂 )
      I’m jist sayin what I’m picking up !!

    200. Brexitcast on BBC1 atm all mummy’s little soldiers and princesses who went on to attend the best of the best private schools in the land laughing and chuckling about pure and unadulterated pish that is supposed to resemble Brexit Grrrr

    201. dadsarmy says:

      @Bob Mack
      It is a problem, and perhaps it’s one the “cult” have particularly, that it could be quite dangerous to speculate on what might be going on for fear of getting it right and giving the game away! So their only defence IS to attack anyone who attacks, anything else could give the game away even accidentally.

      One of the comments somewhere this week, was that the UK Gov treated the CoS with contempt, and therefore lost. And perhaps there’s something in that. It goes to the old adage “never underestimate your opponent”.

      And yeah, illusion is one of the best weapons, specially against a numerically superior “enemy”, or one with more resources.

      And I’m going to leave it at that &#128526

      Except to say that if I were Sturgeon I’d be interested in the naysaying posts, probably more than the ones that defended or agreed with me.

    202. Colin Alexander says:

      The SNP have a great idea, not just great, absolutely bloody fantastic idea: end the Union.

      They have a great belief for something better: Scotland can be a successful, independent country.

      They talk the talk. Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP talk up Scotland. Sing our country’s praises.

      I think we’re all on the same page here and can’t fault the SNP for the above.

      But they need a logical coherent plan that people can follow and believe in to achieve the above.

      There has to be clear route to establishing a way forward to achieving independence.

      Simply saying: well, when it seems a clear majority want independence, we’ll do something then.

      Telling people: the UK Govt will give an indyref because it’s the right thing to do, and they won’t be able to resist the pressure to comply, is simply not plausible.

      Resorting to accusing people of undermining or attacking the SNP or independence when these flaws are pointed out does nothing to address these flaws.

      The SNP have to SHOW and convince people that independence can be achieved WITHOUT the cooperation of the UK State.
      So far they have failed to do that.

      Secret plans and excuses like that just comes across as bullshit.

      It just makes the SNP sound like they have a great idea but don’t know how to put it into effect in the face of opposition from a hostile UK state that wants to keep Scotland as its prize colony.

    203. Bob Mack says:


      The adult in me says sorry. On that front you are right.

      Truth be told,I think I need to vacate this site for a while if not permanently,though my contributions will continue financially.
      Some comments leave me empty and without hope that we are creaive or inclusive enough to move forwzrd.

      Perhaps it’s better to leave it to the hive mind rather than
      have disparity or dissent I wish you well with fond adieu.

    204. dadsarmy says:


      &#128526 – forgot the semicolon 😎

    205. dadsarmy says:

      @Colin Alexander
      I know EXACTLY what the very carefully put together, choreographed and executed SNP plan is.

      But I’m not telling. You might blab.

    206. Tam the Bam. says:

      Bob Mack

      To quote John Bercow….” I don’t give a flying flamingo what you think.”

    207. dadsarmy says:

      @Bob Mack


      Ooops, wrong Sifi

    208. Cubby says:

      Bob Mack@11.36pm

      “It’s not a personal offensive insult”

      That is a blatantly ridiculous comment. All your recent posts have contained are personal insults. Try reading them again Bob. If you want to stick with that silly line so be it – your decision.

      But please do not post in the future complaining about anyone posting personal insults etc because that would make you a hypocrite.

      PS trying to bring the site owner in to your post to back you up is pretty pathetic. You couldn’t win a debate with me and you turned nasty. Try doing a bit of self analysis to see what says about you. You claim to have the appropriate skill set try using it.

    209. Jock McDonnell says:

      From the Court of Session, this week: ‘
      Scottish constitutional law involved the subordination of Government to the
      This could be traced back to Buchanan’s De
      jure regni apud Scotos(1567).
      The power of the sovereign was, by immemorial tradition, restricted by the laws and customs of the people.’

      Its like nectar.

    210. Cubby says:

      Bob Mack@12.04am

      You apology is accepted.

      We had previously agreed to disagree so I have to say I was very disappointed in your personal attack. As someone who is of independent mind I make up my own mind about things so I find any comments that I am a part of a cult or a hive highly offensive. Its the sort of stuff that Britnats throw at you.

      It is a pity you finished your post with a little hive dig.

    211. dadsarmy says:

      Give it a rest please, you’re actually debating about nothing to do with Independence, just who has the bigger ad hominem. You win, happy now?

    212. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Isn’t it amazing. You make a number of demonstrably true points,abuse nobody……then none of the points are addressed because they can’t address them and you get infantile abuse to divert attention.

      As I said. Some folk can’t help giving themselves away.
      But they are doing Wings no favours.

    213. dadsarmy says:

      “abuse nobody”

      “Are you the guy that advised the Jacobite troops at Culloden to charge down into the bog where the Hanoverians could pick them off at leisure. I wonder who’s side he was on.”

      “abuse nobody”


    214. Cubby says:

      For goodness sake Bob bows out and then in comes dadsarmy trying to stir it up.

      Give it a rest yourself.

      All these new posters all SNP baaaad funny that.

      Must be the polls showing a majority for independence and Johnston running the UK like his pal in the USA – a lying narcissist.

      The UK Is in melt down. Britnats haven’t a clue how to stop it.

    215. Jock McDonnell says:

      Nice if Moggy got put in Bar-L, wouldn’t that be funny ?

    216. dadsarmy says:

      All these new posters all SNP baaaad funny that.

      repeat and rinse

      “All these new posters all SNP baaaad funny that.”

      “All these new posters all SNP baaaad funny that.”

      “All these new posters all SNP baaaad funny that.”


      This is the most abusive forum I read, by a long chalk, even including the occasional foray btl the Express.


      Do you seriously think calling anyone you think might be a NO voter for whatever reason stirs your porridge, a “Britnat” is likely to convince them to vote YES?

      Do you care, or is your sole purpose in this forum, to abuse people?

      Are you just a serial abuser?

    217. Cubby says:

      Dadsarmy right on cue stirring it up. Take your own advice and give it a rest.

    218. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      PacMan @ 21:47,

      Well, there’s a lot of sense in what you write there, but I just can’t resist throwing a comment in about this:

      … but the only way to stop Brexit could be to take the least worst option which is a soft Brexit which keeps the damage to a minimum and satisfy both sides of the argument. If that happens and it does turn out to cause minimum damage, I just can’t see any appetite amongst the Scottish public for another lengthy and potentially damaging constitutional debate that Scottish indy could cause.

      First off, this is mutually contradictory. You can’t possibly “stop Brexit” by voting for a “soft Brexit”, can you? And “soft” is anyway a euphemism for something that is still insidiously economically damaging even if not outright immediately catastrophic.

      Thankfully, we see someone prominent in the SNP today resolutely nailing this kind of woolly thinking to the floor: Joanne Cherry making it crystal clear that the SNP in the HoC is never going to vote for any kind of Brexit. Period. Refreshing and direct. She represents exactly the kind of gumption and resolution what we need.

      Furthermore, let’s say that Brexit is ultimately forced upon us before we can escape this BritNat prison camp, and it isn’t immediately obviously awful in the “no-deal” sense. (That’s actually not an unreasonable assumption, since the underlying damage may well take quite a time to surface, as did the terrible Thatcher depredations of the 1980s.) So in expectation of that, the SNP should do what?… just give up the game, walk off the field uncontested at this ultra-historic time and hope it will get a better chance at some unknown time way off in the future…? Or have to rely on a putative “populist” alternative to take up the fight where the ultra-respectable SNP fear to tread?

      Forgive me if I’m misunderstanding, but that seems to be the very passive conclusion to which you are leading our premier political party. And it is this apparent “rabbit in headlights” look from some (and I emphasise “some”) SNP supporters that drives people like me nuts. If the expectation is as you propose, surely the proactive conclusion to draw instead is to bring the issue to a climax at the precise zenith of voter concern, ie. just before Brexit actually happens?

      There is quite a widespread fear among indy supporters at the moment that this SNP emphasis on WM and “preventing Brexit” will lead to the very missed opportunity you appear to expect. Personally, I believe that the strategy has in fact paid dividends both at home and abroad, but it is probably starting to run into diminishing returns now. For me the “gold standard” is Nicola’s Bute House speech in which she promised us:

      it is important that Scotland is able to exercise the right to choose our own future […] before it is too late to decide on our own path.

      Well, that can’t possibly be achieved by just sitting back and letting things happen. As she herself mentioned:

      Doing nothing at this stage […] would mean letting Scotland drift through the next two years, with our fingers crossed, simply hoping for the best.

      Well, that was back in 2017, and although none of the subsequent confusion and uncertainty is in any way her fault, here we are 2 years on and where are we?

      Now is not the time for faint-heartedness, but for the SNP to put their “pedal to the metal” and go flat out to honour all the promises made. Thankfully I still hope and believe that is exactly what the party, top to bottom, is going to do, and soon now.

      And all this bubbling frustration and mutual quibbling among us will vanish in an instant.

    219. dadsarmy says:

      Unlike you I don’t spend just about all my time serially abusing other posters. Unlike you I contribute substantive posts.

      And I see you abusing all and sundry, wasting a whole load of scroll wheel space, with nothing of interest to contribute, except:

      “All these new posters all SNP baaaad funny that”

      Well, that’s 100% incorrect as far as I’m concerned.

      I’ll leave your dim non-existent brain to try vainly to work that one out.

      Oh – now THAT was an ad hominem.

    220. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill


      Simple for the brain dead. AS got us to vote 1 and2 for the SNP and they scraped a majority by the skin of there teeth. The SNP will not be getting my second vote for their ludicrous GRA nonsense as will many thousands of others who will not throw women under the bus. Stick that where it fits.

      And until you acolytes recognise that Scotland will stay shackled.

    221. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Cubby @ 00:48,

      Oh, puhleeze. No debate, just more baseless accusatory finger-pointing. Another characteristic empty whine.

      Surely you are better than that? Aren’t you…?

    222. manandboy says:

      A meander through both the articles and comments in ‘Conservative home’, is an education. We know the headlines, so to speak, about English attitudes to Scotland and its claims to Independence. But to get the finer detail is to increase the resolution and hence to greater sharpness, and hence to see more clearly that a great many English people consider Scotland as ‘belonging’ to England. In the same way that slave owners thought of their slaves as ‘belonging’ to them. Without batting an eyelid.

      Almost universal is the very English traditional view of ‘looking down’, when thinking of Scotland. The way a man looks down to his dog.

      Another characteristic is being dismissive, highlighted in the abuse of the 3 Court of Session judges in the prorogation case.

      Yet another, is a complete disregard for the facts. An s30 for example is ‘legal authorisation’ to hold another referendum.

      Whether you choose to dip in or not to, be assured of this: very few English people think that Scotland’s Independence is anything other than uppity ungrateful nationalists getting ideas above their colonised status.

    223. Cubby says:


      Very good – you have an amazing intellect and a massive brain. It must be true you say so yourself.

      Now pissof and abuse someone else you hypocrite and troll.

      It’s funny how Bob signs off from attacking me and you immediately jump in.

    224. dadsarmy says:

      It’s funny how Bob signs off from attacking me and you immediately jump in

      The one who does all the attacking of other people, is YOU.

      Your sole purpose is to disrupt this forum.

    225. Cubby says:

      Robert J Sutherland@12.59am

      Feel good about piling in – go for it.

      I could do with your criteria for identifying phoney independence supporters.

      Mr Sutherland you may try to force me off Wings but Ive told you before it ain’t going to work and all you are doing is building up bad feeling.

      I have a very good memory.

    226. Cubby says:

      Listen dadsarmy have a look back at your posts for the last hour you are the person doing all the attacking right from the outset. So what does that make you – a liar and a shit stirrer.

    227. Liz g says:

      Is there some sort of spot the Troll prize I don’t know about?
      That’s no fair…. You are clearly misogynistic…
      This Woman had nae chance and ye have clearly loaded it so!!
      🙂 🙂
      Whit the actual fuck Wingers???

    228. Liz g says:

      The goodness sake…

    229. Cubby says:

      Dadsarmy@10. 07pm

      A real insight from a great intellect.

      “There are still people around who want more powers for the Scottish parliament.” Well who would have thought it.

    230. Cubby says:


      I’m of to bed. Thanks for being the voice of reason and compassion.

    231. Liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 12.49
      I agree with you and Pac Man too
      As I hope you can see the differences between us are just detail…
      Oh Robert J , I so hope we haven’t missed the window of opportunity…. and I’ll not behave as if we have!
      But when the Rev start’s saying it??
      He have tae wonder

    232. dadsarmy says:

      @Liz g
      Keep the faith, it hasn’t been betrayed – yet. And perhaps it’s just now it’s all getting interesting, all the pieces of the jigsaw will sudenly fall into place.

      For the rest of it, the more smoke and mirrors, the better. They’re not for our benefit.

    233. Liz g says:

      Cubby @ 1.19
      Night Night my friend!!!
      Sleep the sleep of the righteous..
      I absolutely want ye on Scotland’s side…
      We will spake our honesty regardless.. Aye 🙂

    234. Liz g says:

      dadsarmy @ 1.33am
      Aw don’t worry dadsarmy .. But it’s kind of you to say
      I won’t ever lose heart..
      Scottish Independence is never off the table..
      As I’m sure you’ll agree.
      That’s never going to happen.. 🙂

    235. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Cubby @ 01:09,

      Hypocritical po-faced twat, accusing all and sundry whenever you run out of cogent debate, which alas is all too often. You have history too, and it’s as a miserable punch-drunk whiner whose main contribution on here is to pollute threads by desperately trying to shut people up and send them away, like a little schoolboy in the playground.

      Hence my fervent hope just expressed that you might be able to rise to something more constructive. A futile hope, it would seem.

    236. dadsarmy says:

      @Liz g
      I post / read newspaper forums, and “know” the regulars. There’s some very strange comments coming out these days making it clear people are rethinking their previous convictions, given half a chance.

      It’s probably a main reason for the “hold hold hold …” thing so many of us impatient ones, including me, despair of. While at the same time seeing WHY it’s needed.

      But honest critical posts are needed in these forums more than ever because … wait for it … because …

      “The Truth shall set you free”.

    237. Liz g says:

      dadasarmy @ 1.51
      Disent matter dadsarmy…
      We on this site (as I’m sure ye wull agree )
      Are only about the best way to achieve all the power’s of a state to accrue to Scotland and the Scots

    238. Gary45% says:

      Hey Kids, remember, divided we fall.

    239. Capella says:

      Jock McDonnell says:
      13 September, 2019 at 12:18 am
      From the Court of Session, this week: ‘
      Scottish constitutional law involved the subordination of Government to the
      This could be traced back to Buchanan’s De
      jure regni apud Scotos(1567).
      The power of the sovereign was, by immemorial tradition, restricted by the laws and customs of the people.’

      Its like nectar.

      Had to scroll past a lot of silly carping comments from last night. But thanks JD for this little gem.
      I see Joanna Cherry is pressing on in court. Now she plans to force Boris Johnston to apply for an A50 extension by court order. If not, will the court send the letter itself? That seems to be the new position.

    240. Capella says:

      Sorry, thanks J McD!

    241. Golfnut says:

      @ Liz g 10:54 pm

      Excellent post.

    242. Hackalumpoff says:

      See Nana’s links here:

    243. Ken500 says:

      Nightmare. The night squabbles and the night terror. The thick of it. The ghouls must come out of night like vampires in the dark. The darkness and strife takes over. When many would be better off to bed. Many would be better having some beauty sleep. Have some rest and clear the head. For a better tomorrow. Beauty before beast.

      Consensus would be more appropriate. What is happening to some folk. Their utterings are beamed around the world, They just do not get it in the cold light of day. Pride comes before a fall. Falling contribution/ readership could destroy WWW. Consider it. Lose popularity for rational and reason, The usual suspects. He said, she said, they said coming from different prospectives or view point. Not the collective or the correct attitude,

    244. Ken500 says:

      Thanks Nanna. Hope you are keeping well. Best wishes.

      The voice of rationale and reason. In a sea of discontent. Keeping on track. Thanks for all the effort. Much appreciated by so many, A wee gem of information.

    245. Jock McDonnell says:

      @Capella – Those words are from the Lord President in the full judgement as posted earlier by Nana from Jolyon Maugham’s twitter.

      On the matter of whether the courts can intervene in the first place, the Lord President is clear that Scottish courts can do so. Whether courts in other jurisdictions can is a matter for them.

      I suppose there is a question of whether the UK government can present any further evidence at the SC (maybe ask PeatWorrier on twitter ?). I dont know if that’s allowed procedurally, so the discussion of illegality may still be open, but not perhaps the question of judicial involvement by the Court of Session.

    246. Ken500 says:

      Keep off of ConservativeHome for sanity. Send them home to think again. In the thick of it. Dangerous and criminal. The emperor’s clothes are being revealed to all and sundry. Non existent. The nakedness of naivety. A complete The total shambles.

      The Tory/unionists could not make a bigger mess. Complete chaos as usual. Killing off their own supporters. All 140,000. The average male and over seventy. Leading to their demise into oblivion. Self destruction for their wicked deviousness. The state of the LibDem enablers. Total hypocrites, Rennie is a disgrace. Never trust a Tory, especially in Scotland.

    247. Ken500 says:

      Great links Nanna, as usual. Facebook corruption comments, Rennie hypocrisy etc. Good, skilled information gathered, excellent.

    248. Ottomanboi says:

      This amounts to as the Americans say a hill of beans, ‘unlawful’ according to whose law?
      The law of the UK is by convention and default the law of England.
      Scottish law is purely ‘domestic’.
      The SNP leadership with their nit picking legalism will consign independence to the paper shredder.
      We need to kick these wee Scotch lawyer habits. Should we give a toss about Westminster?
      We need more creative, unorthodox, opportunistic leadership.
      Dare I say, we need our own ‘Johnson’.

    249. Effijy says:

      Strange Days where I want England to get their just deserts and land
      The disaster a No Deal Brexit is.

      I want Bojo the Clown, hater of the Scots as Prime Minister,
      I want the English contrived Supreme Court to say they don’t
      Give a damn about Scottish Courts.

      Let me see Scotland dragged out of Europe clearly against our will and breaking
      Indy Ref promises made.

      It must all end with Scottish independence and freedom from
      Tory fascism and Westminster corruption.

    250. Ken500 says:

      The SNP majority was not a one off and can happen again. If enough people vote for it. It just needs one extra to win.

      Scotland would be Independent now but for the PR system imposed on Scotland by the unionists. Illegally corrupt and without a mandate. 2000 Holyrood and Councils. Deliberately to give the unionists unfair advantage. To spread an increase amount of damaging unionist propaganda The usual corruption. To put first preference vote in the bin and let third rate losers in. That can’t be got rid. So annoying for many people. Deliberately to prevent the SNP getting and even higher number of representative in and counter unionist corruption. Holding Scotland back as usual.

      Campaign to change the electoral system in Scotland. Imposed by total unionist corruption corruption to try and prevent the SNP winning and fair democracy.

    251. Ken500 says:

      One poster returns from Coventry Then they are all at it. A vacant coupon for all forums. Other people see them too. The cheek of it. Turn the other cheek of views. Contradicted it. All in the game of trolling different sites. Nothing better to do? but busy, busy busy. Enjoys the conflict? for attention. Still quite informational.

      The cheek is quite amusing. Ineffectual and harmless. The swagger of it. Disruption is the loot. Self satisfied. A clock face turned for every eventuality. Not very smart at all. Liars always get found out. Some folk are smarter too. Hypocrisy exposed for all to be aware, Even Rev Stu, A slight banning period. Back on the job now. A returner. Still containable. Brief dips in abd out again. Guerrilla tactics. Although guerrilla are smart, not quite smart enough. They think.

    252. Welsh Sion says:

      Off topic.

      Astounding – but wonderful.

      Support for indy in my home country @ 41%.

      Raise your glasses, Scotland!

    253. Dorothy Devine says:

      C’mon Wee Wales!

      Double whammy for Westminster rule.

    254. kapelmeister says:

      Welsh Sion@9:29

      41% sounds like business. Great news.

    255. mike cassidy says:


      Great link to Craig Murray and his skewering of the queen.

      Wee innocent nonagarian, my arse!

    256. @Welsh Sion,

      fantastic polling figures for the good people of Cymru,

      people realising UK is busted and British Labour have been a parasitical poison to Wales going forward into 21st Century,


      if you want to know how effective your MP has been in Commons this is a good graphic,

    257. hackalumpoff says:

      NEW UPDATED links from Nana here:

    258. Ken500 says:

      Anedotes are non representative. Just takes, Not accepted in law. Hearsay without evidence. Not allowed in Law in Scotland. Without corroboration. Liars can always get found out. Inadmissible evidence. Politicians lies can face justice. Illegal. The swings and balances of judicial power being held to account in Law. Politicians come and go in a whim. Legal Law which everyone is supposed to obey being fair without favour is more permanently established over time. Centuries to comply with International standards of equalities.A standard to establish.

      Universal Suffrage 1928. Quite recent. After universal campaigns of equality and justice for caring and fairness. Long campaigns to arrive at one person one vote to have a say against corruption. There are more good people than bad. Looking out for each other abd those who might get left behind. Throughout history.

      The UK/US were nit so damaged by the WW as many European countries, They learnt the message of co operation. They learn from it to prevent further massive destruction. The EU was founded to prevent war abd starvation in Europe. The most successful organisation ever in the to achieve that objective. To achieve peace, co operation and prosperity, To prevent war worldwide, help poorer countries and increase prosperity. A great achievement.

      The Russian saved the West in WW2. It devastated their economy. They do not get full appreciation for what they did. Lying politicians always get found out, Voted out of Office. Especially lying warmongers illegally killing people. Most of them should be put in jail, if there was any justice. They get honours in the UK for corruption.

    259. gus1940 says:

      Ever since the EU referendum we have been subjected to what is nothing but a load of propaganda and lies with the lead being taken by the Telegraph, Mail and Express.

      Can I suggest that as an exercise in clearing the minds of the electorate we perform a kind of pressing the RESET button and ask the Leave and Remain organisations to do the following:_

      Each of them to produce a list or manifesto consisting of the following:-

      The reasons why we should Remain/Leave the EU and the benefits/losses which would accrue to the public at large – in other words how would Joe Public be affected?

      WE could then start a fresh debate based solely on the content of the 2 lists without the propaganda fog which currently envelops the country.

    260. call me dave says:

      Queenie an innocent naive waif… Woof woof! 🙂

      Good call by Murray.

    261. Breeks says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      12 September, 2019 at 10:38 pm
      Bob Mack at 9.55

      Good stuff, Bob
      What is you have done for independence?

      Haven’t heard even one sensible position or proposal from you ever.

      Dave, I want to ask you one question.

      People correctly reject a UDI because it would be inappropriate, unlawful, would be disputed, wouldn’t be recognised, and might auger in decades of legal dispute. No argument on that score.

      We have perhaps the world’s biggest bureaucracy, the EU, wringing it’s hand’s over the Spanish suppression of Catalonia and trumped up imprisonment of Catalan politicians yet it can do NOTHING because it is stymied by Spanish law and Constitution.

      We have the Northern Irish Backstop where the EU is unmoveable and intransigent over the legal text and integrity of the Good Friday Agreement.

      The EU’s world would pivot on the top of a pin if there was a legitimate law which told the EU that it must.

      So why, when we have the European Union being the ultimate pedant when it comes to strict observance of legal principle, why are we not presenting the EU with Scotland’s lawful and established principle of popular sovereignty, which render’s Westminster removal of Scotland from the EU to be involuntary, expressly against our emphatic will, lacking any democratic mandate, and constitutes the attempted subjugation and overruling of the Sovereign will of the Scottish people for the UK’s own narrow and colonial interests and exploitation?

      We have a lawful, competent and potent “kill switch” for Scotland’s Brexit right there in front of us. It’s been there since the moment Scotland rejected Brexit in 2016, and yet we steadfastly refuse to hold either Westminster or Brussels as answerable to the same standards of absolute legal propriety to which we hold ourselves and our Nation’s interests. Why is that Dave McEwan Hill? Why this demeaning self flagellation that every other Nation should benefit from the letter of the law except Scotland? Is our law not good enough or something?

      Why don’t we just demand the Constitutional law in our country is respected, the sovereign will of our people upheld, and thus we throw the kill switch on Brexit in that single instant?

      Why don’t we let the obdurate pedantry of Europe and it’s minute attention to legal detail work to Scotland’s advantage for once? Because once Scotland is clear to stay in Europe, and England committed to leaving, the Union of the United Kingdom is untenable and cannot survive.

      And before you lodge the magnanimous argument that we have a responsibility and common interest to save England from itself, I don’t believe we do, but if anything is going to prick the bubble of this dangerous emerging English Nationalist insanity, perhaps the dissolution of their treasured Britannia and the obsolescence of the blue in their Union flag is the best medicine and promises their soonest recovery of their senses and dignity.

      Why would we not do this Mr McEwan Hill? Doesn’t it constitute an “open goal”? Don’t you believe in the integrity of our Nation and it’s law?

      I say we, but I mean me, “we” are angry with SNP because we don’t understand the game they are playing when the solution is transparent and right there in front of them, but they seem oblivious to it all. If you don’t like us to be angry, then explain what we don’t understand. We are not your enemy.

    262. Ken500 says:

      Joanna Cherry is a QC she knows the Law comprehensively. Training and experience. . That is why she is a effective strategist on legal matters, it is her field of excellence. She knows the ropes. Effectively.

      Most of the SNP reps have training and excellence in their fields, That is why they are selected. Many of them. Overflowing with talented people. Well educated, trained in many fields abd backgrounds, in all aspects of society. Really varied. That is why they are successful managers. They care and want to make Scotland, the world, a better place. They often take a pay cut to do it. They are not career troughers some people imagine. Skilled in many fields. They take a pay cut, less remuneration too manage. Ultraists with conviction. All good, smart able people doing their best for others. It is obvious when you hear them speak with conviction.

    263. dadsarmy says:

      @Welsh Sion
      I remember in Indy Ref 1 where support in polls was 8%, but 12% if we voted YES. Here’s a poll days after the NO vote:

      At 41%, changed days indeed 🙂

    264. Ken500 says:

      Poopy pants lies again. Liars always get found out. No impressing anyone. Despite endless posts. If not determined. Nil for effort but stamina.

    265. RobertTheTruth says:


      Are you upset that posters are voicing the fact that sometimes having an emotional attachment to a political party clouds your judgment? That you think criticism of a party is criticism of you personally?

      Politics is a nasty old business and if you want something then you have to be ruthless. All this talking about a party as if it is your family is a bit weird.

      Parties are made up of people who are not infallible. Parties change and if they say their stated aim is to achieve Independence they should get on with it.

    266. Ken500 says:

      The enemy within, with stamina. Endlessly. 120,000 people can’t change the world without great support. Support not criticism might be more conducive. Or giving it a rest. Boring. Repetitive. Going around in circles non constructive, Chasing their own tail. The tale of the two non returned e-mails certainly started a vendetta. Get over it, for goodness sake. Rationalise.

    267. Welsh Sion says:

      Thanks for the support, Scotland.

      As for

      I noticed at the very top of the round tree (can I mix metaphors in my excitement?) I saw a certain ‘Miliband, Edward, Labour @ 48.’ To think he once had pretensions to be Prime Minister. Whatever happened to that idea – and his piss-poor contributions since?

    268. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      O/T but moving.

      Can we do this when we get the call?

    269. Capella says:

      @ Jock McDonnell – brilliant. I doubt they can introduce more evidence at the SC. In the LBC clip I posted yesterday David Allen Green says that the Scottish judges ruled the prorogation unlawful was that no written statement giving a reason had been submitted. It would have been easy to write a letter with a reason. But no Minister or Civil Servant would sign such a statement.

    270. Ken500 says:

      Half of Scotland would be in prison. The jails could not hold them all. Not practical. The Law worked. She was not convicted. The police arrest and charge too many innocent people for mild misdemeanour. Without investigation, Just give a warning or call a taxi. On ‘charges’ that cannot come to Court. Too many people are put in cells overnight. A total waste of public time and money. Do not change the Law change the Police illegal actions.

      The Police can lie without a witness. Investigate the Police, They do not get reprimanded for having lied in Court. They just get away with it. Hold the Chiefs responsible. Have a word, Too many people do not trust the Police. Classed as a ‘hate’ crime. Some need more training and a week end off. R&R. Stop arresting innocent people snd putting them in cells overnight. They might get a week end off. A bonus. Yousef should have a word. They are a Law unto themselves some times That increases their workload from boredom. Let it go.

    271. Ken500 says:

      Political Parties can be like a family. That is why some folk join them for favours or other reasons. Self interest not conviction. Results in catastrophe like Brexit. Illegal activities. Investigate where your vote should lie with some conviction, A personal choice, Totally freely given.

      Some people join political Parties because they believe that is the most effective way to give support for a cause or conviction. Not leave it for others. Stand up to the place, With conviction not for favours. For what they can give, not what they can get. Get organised. It often works. Backgrounds are freely available on the internet. A few minutes is all it takes. A bit of interest. If internet is available. There are always other means within the community. Getting up and giving a bit of help. Quite satisfying.

    272. Colin Alexander says:


      SNP MP Alyn Smyth provided a response to the very argument you are now putting. He said that the EU already accepted the Article 50 trigger was done according to the constitution of the UK.

      That begs the question: when Article 50 was “triggered” by UK Parliament and the EU had to decide whether this was done according to the UNWRITTEN UK’s constitution:

      Why didn’t the SNP challenge it then in October 2016? Well, they did, sort of, in the Gina Miller case in January 2017, citing SEWEL Convention, NOT Scottish sovereignty, as part being part of the UK Constitution that must be respected. The Gina Miller case ruled UK Parliament sovereign and a political convention ( in this case Sewel) is just that, a political convention, so not law.
      The Scottish Govt made no argument whatsoever about Scottish sovereignty, so the court never considered that.

      They could have argued Scotland’s people remain sovereign, so if Scotland’s people vote (Remain) for example, that is direct democracy by sovereign people, so trumps UK parliamentary representative democracy via the English tradition of Parliament being sovereign. As far as I know, The SNP / Scottish Govt did not challenge UK Parliamentary sovereignty at EU level either. So the Article 50 vote was accepted as legitimate by the EU.

      See also:


      There are several possible explanations a few of which are:

      1. The SNP DO want independence and saw Brexit as an opportunity of raising support for independence by demonstrating how rotten the UK is, and it appears that is slowly succeeding to some extent, with NO voting Remainers slowly moving to YES.

      Remember: Scottish sovereignty is of limited use if the people exercise it for one day and use it to hand that sovereignty straight back to UK Parliament.

      2. The SNP don’t believe the people of Scotland are sovereign within the UK state. They accept for as long as Scotland is in the UK, UK Parliament is sovereign.

      3. The SNP do believe the people of Scotland are ultimately sovereign but can only exercise that sovereignty when they choose not to be ruled by UK Parliament, an analogy: UK’s legal systems are subservient to EU law until UK exits EU. But UK does not need permission to leave, as its sovereign. It can choose not to be subservient to UK law.

      4. The UK as sovereign, did not need permission to vote to exit the EU. But the EU had clear rules on how a partner exits.

      5.In contrast: The UK Union says its Union is forever, there is no means of exit and cannot be changed. The Articles of Union states other terms of the deal are forever but they HAVE been changed by UK Parliament, such as heirs to the throne can now marry “papists” as the Articles of Union refers to Catholics.

      6. Why the SNP has NEVER challenged the UK Union in a Scots Law court is the biggest puzzle to me.

    273. Colin Alexander says:

      Correction: SNP MEP Alyn Smith

    274. Capella says:

      Jenny Eeles continues her fascinating trawl through 19th C newspaper articles and letters. Here’s a letter listing the Scottish Lords and other parliamentarians who accepted a bribe to sign up to the Treaty of Union. Poor old Lord Banff only got £11.

    275. galamcennalath says:

      Question 1 – If Brexiteers genuinely believe they can have an invisible border with the EU in Ireland using technology, why do the fear a backstop which would therefore never kick in?

      Question 2 – If Brexiteers genuinely believe they can have an invisible border with the EU in Ireland using technology, why can’t they have the same deployed at ports on the mainland Britain side of the Irish Sea?

      Answer to both – they must know their ‘invisible border by technology’ is bollocks.

      Media full of what the DUP say, when they simply can’t speak for the majority in NI.

      Johnson should now be free of DUP shackles so he could try May’s Bill with an Ireland only backstop. Would parliament pass that? Why should they? If Brexit is delayed then it will need to be for a GE, then there is no need to pass a dubious bill.

      The GE might be the 21st November. That can be chosen immediately after the delay has been achieved on 31st October. Why have the GE any later into winter? 21st seems obvious date.

    276. manandboy says:

      Now that they are surplus to Tory requirements, the DUP are retreating to the red line of relevance.

    277. manandboy says:

      The knowledge of the Sovereignty of the Scottish people, has been 100% suppressed for at least a century.

      Why would this generation of Scottish politicians be any the wiser?

    278. Capella says:

      @ galamcennalath – Several threads ago I speculated that a border down the Irish sea was the only option left open to Westminster, once you ruled out all the others that they can’t take.

      Can’t have an Irish border as that would break the GFA and Congress won’t do deals if they do that.

      Can’t cancel BREXIT as they will end up swinging from English lamp posts.

      Can’t do No Deal as they will have no trade and Parliament has ruled that out now anyway.

      Can’t do May’s Withdrawal Agreement as that ties them into a CU in perpetuity.

      So Irish Sea border it is and try to contain the Scottish revolt that will follow.

    279. laukat says:

      If the Joanna Cherry case for “nobile officium” wins does it not give Boris his way out? If the courts pass it then he can say it wasn’t him that asked for an extension it was court that signed the letter?

    280. manandboy says:

      Donalda MacKinnon took over as Director of BBC Scotland in December 2016. Since then, BBC Scotland has become even more brazenly hostile to Scotland and more propagandist in its output. Three points:-

      * No one in Scotland has been able, or willing, to lay a glove on her.

      * Scots in their millions continue slavishly to pay the annual anti-Scotland propaganda tax, euphemistically called ‘the TV licence’.

      * The Scottish government has made no serious perceptible effort to disarm what is Westminster’s biggest single weapon in use against Scottish Independence.

    281. Capella says:

      @ laukat – yes. A way out of the frying pan and into the fire.

    282. Capella says:

      BBC website has given up publishing the Scottish newspaper front pages. Can’t think why.

    283. HYUFD says:

      Welsh Sion.

      No only 33% of Welsh voters back independence including Don’t Knows even after Brexit and given 47% of Welsh voters voted Remain that is bad news for Plaid.

      Brexit is no game changer and indeed the Tories lead the latest Welsh Westminster poll

    284. Welsh Sion says:

      Capella @ 12.38 pm

      I could swear they were there this morning …

    285. Proud Cybernat says:

      Nobile Officium – (i.e. per procurationem Boris Johnson). If this happens then England will go full-on radio rental at Scotland and their perceived interference in their desired Brexit. And it’s not too difficult to imagine a surge in the demand for an IndyRef for England (in order to get rid of the pesky Scots and reach the Promised Land of Brexitannia).

    286. Hamish100 says:

      breeks if you are member of the snp why not ask your MSP for guidance or for that matter fellow supporters.

      if you are not a member of the snp why should we bother with you?

      this is me answering

    287. Capella says:

      @ Welsh Sion – I must have missed them and I’ve looked a few times. The “British” front pages are usually up before midnight the day before.
      Must be your Welsh computer frightening them with dragons 🙂

    288. Gfaetheblock says:

      Capella @ 12.38

      They haven’t.

    289. laukat says:

      @Capella – I’m not sure it puts Boris in the fire. Gives him a way of complying with the law without comlying with law, lets him stoke the fire with the Brexiteers about remainders holding him back and push forward his strategy to win a GE.

      On another note, if we now can’t trust the PM not to lie to the Queen or to comply with acts of parliament why would we trust him to honour any Section 30 request?

    290. Effijy says:

      For those following the First Ministers Independence petition
      It’s just about to go through the 279,000 mark.

      Thanks Boris! Keep up the absurd and insulting work!

    291. call me dave says:

      Partner just completed a YouGov question online.

      Constituency Political Poll : Fife ‘Glenrothes’
      Names: SNP P. Grant (ticked)

      Q: If a GE election was tomorrow who would you vote for.

    292. Capella says:

      @ Gfaetheblock – Thx – I have managed to get to that page /news/uk-scotland via my tablet BBC app. But it isn’t searchable on the website for some reason. I have no idea why.
      In the past, the BBC News Scotland page was published on the website around 8 am but not now.

    293. Gary45% says:

      To Spaf or not to Spaf?
      Seems nobody said the comment according to BoJo.
      As said a while back, the establishment have still not realised the lies they got away with before the arrival of the internet, no longer work.
      On a very scary prospect, the Right Wing English media will give the English the choice of BoJo, Swinson or Farage as PM.(Each one bereft of any morals, reality and ability.) They will never allow Corbyn, because he fights the system they control.
      Scotland has to vote Indy.

    294. HandandShrimp says:

      Having just read Leonard’s explanation of why a majority for independence supporting parties in 2021 isn’t a mandate I was wondering if anyone here has a working knowledge of utter pish. My schoolboy pish isn’t up to the task and I need someone with a better grasp to explain it to me.

      Labour activists don’t have to look far to see why they are languishing in the polls

    295. Capella says:

      @ leukat – BJ would rather “die in a ditch” than delay BREXIT past 31st October – so he told the English electorate i.e. his wealthy backers. They will be distinctly displeased if that doesn’t happen. Do or die. I wonder if Dominic Cumming dreamt up that unfortunate slogan.

      If there is a GE in November and we’re still in the EU then the BREXIT Party will scoop up Leave voters. Otherwise, Rees Mogg & Co will have to tell us where they’ve stashed all their untaxed loot.

    296. call me dave says:


      Aye another ‘Cumming’ plan looks like failing.

      But don’t worry there will be another one along in a minute from Wiley Coyote’s ACME bumper box of tricks.

      Not long now win or lose! 🙂

    297. Welsh Sion says:

      Here be dragons, right enough, Capella!

      You will have notice of course that *Welsh* newspapers NEVER feature. (Generally, I guess coz there are no separate Welsh editions of ex-Fleet Street rags nor do we have ‘papers’ with as extensive … ahem … readership as say, The Scotsman.)

      But, hey, valued partner in this family of nations – right? 😉

    298. winifred mccartney says:

      I too saw that interview with R Leonard – utterly pathetic – no idea about democracy unless it is the labour kind of sitting on fences, making promises they have no intention of keeping – do away with the Lords, Federalism, the most devolved powers in the world in Scotland, lies, lies and more lies. No principals just blowing in the wind on the road to nowhere.

    299. jfngw says:

      So that is Labour and the LibDem’s joining the Tories in denying a democratic vote taken in the Scottish parliament.

      So Labour and the LibDem’s are now in exactly the same boat as the Tories, they want to ignore a democratic votes in parliament. What is it with these London based parties and democracy?

    300. CameronB Brodie says:

      Yes, set the Court of Session into them. 😉

      call me dave
      Hi back, from the other day. 🙂

    301. CameronB Brodie says:

      ” What is it with these London based parties and democracy?”

      Westminster is a racsist patriarchy, and the London based parties not best pleased that democracy and constitutional law complicate the task of dominating and exploiting Scotland. Simples.

    302. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Hamish100 @ 13:05,

      This is just plumb misguided on so many levels.

      First off, an MSP is there to serve everyone in his/her area, not just those adherents of their own particular party.

      Secondly, this isn’t an SNP fan site, no matter what the “ultras” might hope, it’s for open debate. That’s been made clear enough, incuding in Stu’s own articles.

      Lastly, I don’t believe the SNP itself holds to your apparent view that only its adherents need be listened to. Metaphorically sticking fingers in your ears and humming “na-na-na” is such a bad look. It’s an arrogance eerily reminiscent of NorthBritLab at its worst, and reflects badly (and inappropriately) on the party that you claim to support.

      Likewise, the behaviour of those other “ultras” going around denouncing anyone whose views they don’t like is deeply creepy, and reminiscent of unpleasant regimes of the past. If anyone believes they are serving the cause of independence or the SNP by behaving like this, they really need to think again.

    303. Welsh Sion says:

      Effjy @ 1.46 pm

      Two petitions to run in tandem: (278 958 signatures) (4 391 signatures)

      Sign and share both, people!

    304. Scozzie says:

      I cannot get my head round the SNP continuing to fight this Brexit farce. We have to face facts, there is no good solution to this for the people of Scotland no matter the outcome.

      WM is currently at its weakest point right now. Play by WM rules get crushed by WM rules!

      S30 is a dead duck. To my mind, we go back to an election to decide our independence. Either campaign to begin independence negotiations at the forthcoming GE or SNP to call a snap HR election for the same end.

      Nicola said we would get to decide our future before we were Brexited – we are dangerously close to that point. She needs to step up and get on with it.

    305. Heart of Galloway says:

      Interesting exchange at the local Co last nicht.

      The lassie at the checkout was beeping through the items when out of the blue she said: “It’s a bluidy pantomime doon there, isn’t it no’?

      – Where?
      – Westminster. Boris Johnson’s a f***in’ maniac.
      – Aye, he’s nae time for Scotland, that’s for sure.
      – An’ that Scottish court said he was a liar.
      – Aye, he’s gettin’ fun oot noo.
      – Dae ye ken something? Scotland should make its aim wey – we’d be far better aff. Next!”

      Joanna Cherry’s work has a long reach it would seem.

      And the healthy notion that Scotland has actual POWER to shape events is gaining ground.

    306. jfngw says:


      It is not easy to call an early Holyrood election, you need a two-thirds majority, which the SNP/Greens do not have, I can’t imagine the unionist parties playing ball at this minute.

      The FM could resign and then the parliament not select a new FM, that would seem to rule out the current FM standing again. Or lose a vote of confidence, which also seems unlikely unless the SNP vote against themselves (not a good idea).

    307. Effijy says:

      A Dublin man sees a sign outside a Kerry farmhouse:
      ‘Boris the Talking Dog For Sale’….He rings the bell, the owner appears and tells him the dog can be viewed in the back garden.
      The man sees a very nice looking Black Labrador Retriever sitting there.
      “Do you really talk?” He asks the dog.
      “Yes!” The Labrador replies.
      After recovering from the shock of hearing the dog talk, the man asks, “So, tell me your story!”
      The Labrador looks up and says, “Well, I discovered that I could talk when I was pretty young. I wanted to help the government, so I joined the Garda.
      “In no time at all they had me jetting from country to country, sitting in rooms with spies and world drug lords, because no one imagined that a dog would be eavesdropping.
      I was one of their most valuable spies for eight years, But the jetting around really tired me out, and I knew I wasn’t getting any younger so I decided to settle down. I signed up for a job at Dublin airport to do some undercover security work, wandering near suspicious characters and listening in. I uncovered some incredible dealings and was awarded several medals. I got married, had a few puppies, and now I’ve just retired!”
      The man is amazed. He goes back into the house and asks the Kerryman how much he wants for the dog.
      “Ten quid!” The owner says.
      “£10? But this dog is absolutely amazing! Why on earth are you selling him so cheaply?”
      “Because he’s a lying F***! He’s never been out of the garden!” ???

    308. Capella says:

      Michael Gray has tweeted an article on “nobile officium” from 2015 if anyone wants to know what this is. The Scottish Court of Session may use it to delay Article 50 if Boris Johnston seems unable or unwilling to obey the law.

    309. Ken500 says:

      More people are joining the SNP. Anecdotal. In some areas. Overall figures?

    310. Ken500 says:

      Huge Conference coming up. Packed out.

    311. Ken500 says:

      The Nine is a bitty better

    312. jfngw says:

      The question of Boris Johnson is not does he lie but does he ever tell the truth. As far as I can make out almost everything he says will have a element which encompasses a lie. I basically just take everything he say now as a lie, it’s the safest bet.

    313. Ken500 says:

      Swinson believes she could be PM next election, Goodness gracious. Beyond belief. When all hope is lost. They get even lower. She has as much chance as Davidson. Not a lot. Not a lot. Inconceivable.

      Who do these hangers on think they are. Promoted beyond their station and capabilities. Out for what they can get. More likely to be voted out. She helped cause the mess and shambles. The enablers. The Tories are toast including Swinson. What a joke. What planet are they on?

    314. jfngw says:


      Gwo bwak touh yower constwituewncies aanhd pwpahr fwah ghavomehent.

    315. call me dave says:


      I see you speak Swinsonese rather well. Wee David would be proud that you remembered. 🙂

      Hi Cameron. 🙂

    316. defo says:


      … Awr Iwll scweem and scweem and scweem

    317. twathater says:

      @ Hamish100 105pm Hamish your have made this ( are you a member of SNP if not basically you have no say or input ) remark on a couple of occasions, specifically to Breeks , I also am NOT a member of the SNP so does that mean that I too should just shut the fcuk up when I disagree with their policies , unfortunately for you it was us non members who HELPED vote the SNP in to power , because their 120000 membership just couldn’t have done it

      So what is it you are saying Hamish , that we voting fodder should just shut up and go away until we are needed again to vote the super duper SNP into power again , well sorry that’s not the way democracy works

      There have been many rigorous and sometimes aggressive insults and comments thrown around in the last few weeks and months , with many long term posters leaving because they didn’t like the Revs and other posters opinions on the SNP’S way forward , with some including yourself even questioning his belief in Scottish independence with snarky and risible comments

      I get really angry when posters flippantly throw out insults of troll ,britnat or unionist at people who have differing opinions to them but what angers me more is someone telling others they are NOT entitled to disagree with the SNP because they are not members , if ALL non members don’t vote SNP where will they be then

    318. jfngw says:

      @call me dave

      I’m not Cameron, it’s Jim actually (that’s what the j is in my name, my initials plus gw for glasgow)

    319. kapelmeister says:

      Just to give Swinson a reality check on her PM ambition, the Lib Dems would need to win more than 27 times the seats they won in 2017 to have a majority of one.

    320. RM says:

      The SNP will have to watch they don’t back themselves into a corner, if the Tories do manage to do a deal with the DUP and there is brexit with a deal where do Scotland stand.

    321. Welsh Sion says:

      If there are any lawyers in the house, this is the judgement of the Inner House of the Court of Session, 11 September 2019 before Lords Carloway, Brodie and Drummond Young:

      In the reclaiming motion by


      Petitioners and Reclaimers



    322. defo says:

      Here’s a thought.
      It would be silly to expect that bad actors aren’t going to target WoS, fleeting fuds and more persistent stains both.

      Wouldn’t it be better if we accepted that, gave the reader some respect for their cognitive abilities, and scrolled on by, or at least refrained from getting all witch finder general on them.
      Thus winning, by denying them O2 and our precious time & sanity?

      Not a big fan on moderation, but site rules are broken willy, some might even say nilly on an hourly, let alone daily basis!

      Only a thought

    323. Robert Peffers says:

      @Bob Mack says: 12 September, 2019 at 10:15 pm:

      ” … Why are people missing from this site?”</i?

      Well, Bob Mack, I'm missing and I'll tell you why. It is because of bare faced liars like you who talk utter pish.

      No one, least of all myself, has said Wingers should not be critical of the FM/SG or SNP. What is said is that this constant drip, drip, drip against them is harming the independence movement. No matter if it is total rubbish, it still harms the independence movement and, Bob, you are one of the worst offenders.

      What has been said is that if the person harming the movement by complaining on an open forum is in the SNP they should get themselves to their branch meeting to do so. If not to contact those they complain about on the FM/SG/SNP website and I have even posted the web addresses, email addresses and given the council, Holyrood and Westminster contact details where councillors, MSPs and MPs can be contacted.

      It doesn't tale geniuses to work out that direct contact to whoever you disagree with, whether elected or just SNP party officials or even the party in general will gain their notice while posting on an open web blog will be far less likely to do so. So why go on harming the independence movement when there are better methods to make your complaints?

      Now before I go off lurking again let me inform you about something I read this week. I read the results of a poll that monitored Scottish attitudes.

      The article quoted figures showing the Scottish public's opinion about the Scottish National Health Service, Police Scotland and Scottish education were considerably down than their last poll showed.

      Yet the Scottish Government is the best performing government in the United Kingdom and Nicola Sturgeon has just won a prestigious European award for politicians: The Scottish NHS outperforms the rest of the UK's health services by some considerable way and the Scottish Education system is only badly rated by a system of rating that is deeply mistrusted by some very influential people who are really well placed to know the truth.

      Now, and you may argue with this, but it is my own opinion the sole reason that the afore mentioned Scottish services are going down in the Scottish public's estimation lies with both the constant opposition yelling at FMQ's at Holyrood and the subsequent media attention those yelling opposition MSPs get while the same media never mentions anything good whatsoever done by the FM, SG or SNP.

      So there you go – the same thing applies here on Wings when there are all those critics, including you, constantly dripping their poison here on Wings.

      Oh! And By the way, you are talking mince – Wings readership is up in spite, not because of you and the other constant complainers and the SNP party membership is increasing as are the opinion polls of people for independence. So, again I point out, you are talking mince.

      Scream at me if you want to Bob, I won't be listening.

      Well you did ask, upthread, why people were leaving Wings, so I'm telling you why I personally stopped bothering and generally now just lurk.

      Yet only a few articles ago Stu was showing graphs of great increases in Wings Readership. The SNP membership figures are regularly published and show increases and opinion polls show, that whatever the FM/SG/SNP are doing the support for indy is still increasing.

      All of which is proof positive your claims things are otherwise are total bullshit.

    324. schrodingers cat says:

      Whats happening with AUOB march in edinburgh?

      seems 2 are being organised on the same day ?

    325. barpe says:

      Well said, Mr Peffers.

    326. Hamish100 says:



      Thanks. Much appreciated.

    327. Maria F says:

      Breeks says:
      13 September, 2019 at 10:17 am

      “People correctly reject a UDI because it would be inappropriate, unlawful, would be disputed, wouldn’t be recognised, and might auger in decades of legal dispute”

      We have been down this route before, many, many, many times, but you seem to bring this back over and over and over again and I have to wonder why.

      Scotland cannot UDI because it is not integral part of the Kingdom of England. It is an equal partner in a bipartite political union. The only thing Scotland can do is TO DISSOLVE the political union. No UDI, no secession, just DISSOLVE the treaty of union. As a result of that dissolution, not only Scotland becomes independent but so does the kingdom of England.

      Please, for the sake of clarity, lets call things for what they really are to avoid confusing and misleading people. Scotland CANNOT and will not UDI, it will dissolve the United Kingdom of Great Britain and that is that.

    328. ian macdiarmid says:

      Why is it so difficult for some posters to scroll on by. All they have managed to do is create what is a good site into a negative depressing site.
      The SNP is’nt above criticism but they are they most obvious path to independence and until they show me they are not fit for purpose i will support them.
      I also hope that Stuart reflects on some of his language(cxxt)/comments and looks at the long game he’s far to important to be waisting time fighting every battle.Pick and choose and we will win.
      I will continue to support this site although i have little to gain as i live in France but lets get a grip,everyone!

    329. jfngw says:

      Unionists politician’s in Scotland 2014:
      You’ll have no currency, no one will trade with you, you’ll have food shortages, no pensions, bankrupt. The majority of Scots don’t want this.

      Unionist politician’s in Scotland 2019:
      We want food shortages, no pensions, worthless currency, no trade deals. Think of the fish. The majority of Scots want this.

    330. defo says:

      ian macdiarmid

      Little to gain?

      You can breath your last, knowing you did your bit, given your circumstance, in righting the ancient wrong done against us.

      That’s got to be worth something mate!

    331. jfngw says:

      Looks awfully like Steph McGovern has been told to issue an apology for remarks about Mr Johnson. Doesn’t she know if you want to be honoured by the establishment and given your own show you really need to be a paedophile or have a domestic abuse conviction.

    332. North chiel says:

      “Trade unionist “ to appear on Sky “ paper review” tonight . Mmm must be change in the wind?

    333. Colin Alexander says:

      Robert Peffers

      According to a certain other website,support for the SNP is at its highest ever.

      Wings is an indy bubble where we talk among oorsels. No an influence on undecideds.

      So, dinnae fash, sir.

    334. defo says:

      R4 Any ?s
      The audience are hissing at the very mention of Scotland!

    335. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Maria F @ 19:05,

      I’ve said this before, it isn’t the theoretical niceties that matter in the end one way or another, but the degree of support that the SG receives from the people, including what support (or otherwise) it might subsequently evoke from substantive actions.

      It would be a pure breeze if support for indy were at 98%, but with it languishing at around 50-50, the question is: could any unilateral assertion of independence (whatever you call it) really start off with that level of support, and would the action stimulate sufficient increase in support, or would it backfire due to some supporters rejecting the means employed? Could such action manage to chain-react to a level far more convincing for a unilateral declaration, like 80% or more, say?

      Whatever one’s views of the alleged timorousness of the SG/SNP over normal elections, it’s not hard to understand their extreme reluctance to engage in any unilateral process with such flimsy chance of success. You would have to be a genius orator and persuader to pull that one off. Are there any?

      And that’s without all the ensuing uncertainty as to whether such action would be accepted as legitimate by the rest of the world (besides ultra-sensitive Spain). States are in general extremely leery of secessionist movements because of the potential consequences for blowback at home.

      Consequently, if there is any mileage in the constitutionalist route, it can’t be gained by empty posturing. It would have to be gained through effective legal action through recognised existing channels, which is what I believe Breeks suggests.

      However, present minor “privateer” skirmishes in that respect do seem to be making headway, not only in the wins themselves (or even in the failures), but also as a “consciousness-raising” exercise among ordinary folk that can rally them to indy. As per the very cheering anecdote by Heart of Galloway upthread @ 16:03.

    336. ahundredthidiot says:

      I stood in a room the other day which was full of multi agency uniforms. I know that it’s unfair to stereotype, but I have moved in the these circles all of my adult life and witnessed some appalling unionist behaviour, this being west central Scotland, so what happened next surprised me.

      Everyone was blethering away in a respectful fashion and mid current affairs chat, one in a white shirt said, ‘the whole of Scotlands going to go SNP’. Now, what’s important is that this remark was made positively and not one single person challenged it, in fact, heads atop lots of other coloured shirts nodded gently. To top that off, they hardly knew each other.

      Is support for the SNP and an Independent Scotland on the slide? – Is it buggery

    337. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Maria F

      So what we need is a UDD then – Unilateral Declaration of Dissolution.

      It’s all the same in reality, assuming the sovereign people of Scotland, unambiguously give their proxy to some random bunch of Scottish Politicos to get us out of the Union.

      Unless you are proposing that we ask the authorities in London, to determine what we want and leave it to them to decide what we get.

      We have tried that twice before, in 1979 and 1292 … .It didn’t work out too well on either occasion.

    338. Maria F says:

      “could any unilateral assertion of independence”


      Would you and Breeks claim that what the UK has done by triggering A50 is also a “unilateral assertion of independence”? Would you say that the UK has UDI from the EU?

      Where is the section 30 order from Brussels that guarantees their acceptance of the result of the EU ref and that “makes the result legitimate”?

      I do not recall any minister or politician from any of the 27 other states claiming that the Uk did not have a mandate for a referendum, or that they would refuse consent to hold a referendum or that they would fight with every fiber of their being against the “UK’s independence” like we are hearing day in day out from England politicians about Scotland.

      Because it turns out that the EU is a political union in the exact same way the UK of Great Britain is. If you cannot “UDI” or “exercise a unilateral assertion of independence” from one, then you cannot from the other either. It is common sense.

      I see that the Kingdom of England, without the consent of its equal partner, the KIngdom of Scotland has proceeded to “Unilaterally assert its independence” from the EU on behalf of the whole UK of Great Britain and yet I do not see any outrage in the world to that. I don’t see the UN, NATO, the 27 other equal partners of the EU, China and the rest refusing to accept that the UK will leave the EU. I don’t see USA refusing to accept it either, on the contrary, they appear desperate for the UK to ditch the EU regulations so they can saturate our shelves with their chlorinated chicken, effect a take over on our food industry and put their hands on our shale gas.

      “UDI” from the EU this brexit may have been, but there was plenty of support for it in England and Wales and plenty rich donors supporting it. I do not recall at any point anybody shouting, “hang on, we don’t have a section 30 order and consent from Brussels to hold the referendum, so we should boycott it”, which by the way was only advisory and highly undemocratic. I don’t recall any section of the English and Welsh electorate refusing in mass to vote because “it was an illegitimate UDI and the result may not count”. In fact, it was made very clear to us at the time that it was an advisory referendum and I am sure there was a reason for this.

      So sorry, but from where I am standing what you and Breeks are attempting to push here does not hold water. Any at all, in fact.

      The situation where Scotland is, is unilateral only to certain extent. In the same way that the 27 could not stop the UK triggering A50, the kingdom of England will not be able to legitimately stop Scotland dissolving the treaty. It does not have any right to do so and if it claims it does then it is admitting that it abused the treaty of union to exercise a take over of its equal partner. This means that if Scotland exercises its right to terminate the treaty, the treaty is over then the Kingdom of England like it or not will become an independent state, just like Scotland.

      Sorry, but I think this idea of UDI or “unilateral assertion of independence” is complete nonsense and attempts to suggest that somehow Scotland, and equal partner in this union, needs the consent from the other party to separate. In other words, I think it is attempting to deceive. It is attempting to deceive as much as the collusion that we currently see among the arms of the English establishment desperately attempting to peddle that Scotland “does not have a mandate” for another referendum. Why? Because they know the writing is on the wall. Scotland has a mandate for a referendum and as an equal partner has the legitimate right to dissolve the treaty and as a colony of the Kingdom of England under one of the articles of the decolonisation charter of the UN of which the UK is a signatory, has the right to claim back all the required powers to hold that independence referendum and has the right to hold that referendum freely. That is why these politicians are so desperate to create the illusion, because an illusion is all what it is, that the people of Scotland has not given a mandate to hold that referendum.

      The moment the UK gov triggered A50 without a section 30 order and without “asking permission” from the other 27 members of the EU to “UDI” from the EU, the concept that Scotland needs one has been totally and truly blown out of the water. Frankly, they were foisted by their own petard, hence resourcing now to plan B: to attempt to deny the mandate.

      The situation may be different for Wales though.

    339. Capella says:

      @ Welsh Sion – Welsh indy numbers are roughly where Scotland was before the campaign in 2014. So will only get better as awareness grows. Good luck.

    340. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Maria F

      I think we should hold a referendum to put this sovereignty issue to bed once and for all.

      And, I have long been of the opinion that any referendum we hold should be to determine whether we want the Parliament of the UK, the EU or Scotland to have the final say on all matters pertaining to Scotland.

      How could anyone justify any option bar the third one and how could refusing to ask it be credibly rationalised?

      The next step would be a doddle … or so Robert the Bruce’s arachnid pal tells me.

    341. Golfnut says:

      @ Col Blimp IV

      Just exactly how does the EU have the final say on all things.

    342. Maria F says:

      Col.Blimp IV says:
      13 September, 2019 at 8:45 pm
      Maria F

      “So what we need is a UDD then – Unilateral Declaration of Dissolution”

      You can drop the unilateral. It will be a dissolution of a political treaty. Do you hear any politician saying or mentioning in the press, TV or radio “unilateral brexit”? Because you could argue that that is exactly what it is. But no, you don’t hear it or read it. So why this desperate insistence that when Scotland does the same as the English gov has done it has to be called by force “unilateral” so somewhat when Scotland does something it has to be perceived that it is less legitimate than when the kingdom of England does, when in fact, the opposite applies in the case of brexit?

      The minute Scotland dissolves the treaty, the Kingdom of England will not have any choice than that of passing an equal act in its (acting) parliament. So there is nothing “unilateral” about that.

      “It’s all the same in reality”

      No it is not, actually. UDI is referring to an integral part of a territory separating by its own will in opposition of the rest of the territory – you could claim that this is what Catalonia was trying to do. Wales could UDI from the Kingdom of England if it so wishes. England itself could UDI from the Kingdom of England. Yorkshire could UDI from the Kingdom of England. London could UDI from the Kingdom of England. Scotland cannot UDI because Scotland is not integral part of the Kingdom of England, it is a separate state with well defined boundaries that entered voluntarily into a bipartite political union. If you accept that Scotland can “UDI” then by force you must accept that the Kingdom of England will UDI too simultaneously unless it chooses to remain attached to Scotland as part of the Kingdom of Scotland. Do you ever envision such a situation? Or you rather see the England MPs rushing to pass an Act of dissolution?

      “assuming the sovereign people of Scotland, unambiguously give their proxy to some random bunch of Scottish Politicos to get us out of the Union”

      We have already done so, actually. Over 80% of the First the Post Seats in Holyrood are held by the SNP. If Holyrood had been elected in the same way as Westminster is, the SnP would hold such a freak of an absolute majority that any other world state could only dream of. In addition, the SNP holds the majority of Scotland’s seats in the Parliament of the UK of Great Britain. According to Margaret Thatcher, that was sufficient justification for Scotland to declare independence. So what has changed? Why is now the “unilateral” bit sooo important?

      “Unless you are proposing that we ask the authorities in London, to determine what we want and leave it to them to decide what we get”


      Ask????? I say TELL them what we get. The people of Scotland are as smart if no more than all those down in London. We can use calculators and Excel spreadsheets. I am sure our legitimate representatives will not have any problem whatsoever working out exactly what our share of the assets is. Needless to say that any natural or man made asset within Scotland’s land and territorial waters belongs to Scotland – otherwise we would have to start thinking where we put our share of the Big Ben, Buckingham Palace and the Palace of Westminster, never mind our share of all those goodies being held by the London Museums and Galleries and of course all those England ports and motorways.

      “We have tried that twice before, in 1979 and 1292 … .It didn’t work out too well on either occasion”

      Scotland did not have a parliament in 1979. It has one now. There was not internet by then. There is internet and social media now. The young were less into politics then than they are now. The BBC and the press does no longer have the same grip on the people of Scotland. People in general is more savvy now than they were then. We know about the McCrone Report and the theft of the 6000 sq miles of Scottish territorial waters. We have seen how Brown deceived us for the sake of the English establishment’s interests. WE have seen how the word and the signature of the most senior political figures of the UK of Great Britain are totally worthless, as it is the Sewell convention, the devolution settlement and every other law that gets passed in Westminster if it is inconvenient for the government of the day. We have seen the power grab, the overruling of our expressed democratic will to remain in the EU for the sake of a handful of VIP taxdodgers. We have seen how much respect Scotland gets in this union and we have also seen what the current PM and monarch think of democracy.

      Much more people have their eyes wide open now.

    343. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Maria F @ 21:06,

      Realpolitik is never agreeable to those who truly value justice, so I understand your deep sense of aggravation, and indeed I share it. I imagine every supporter of independence does, actually. But the other 50% of our neighbours plainly don’t at the moment, for whatever reason.

      But you don’t address any of that lack at all.

      So how do you proceed regardless? The logical consequence of your insistence on an absolute assertion of right is either a completely futile gesture that falls flat on its face and sets independence back for ages, or total abandonment of democratic process and resort to insurrection to enforce your view regardless – which ultimately would escalate to armed – and hope that your will somehow prevails. Another 1920s Ireland? Are you really ready for that?

    344. Maria F says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      13 September, 2019 at 9:58 pm
      Maria F @ 21:06,

      “But the other 50% of our neighbours plainly don’t at the moment, for whatever reason”

      I think you are mistaken. The actions of the English establishment and its useful idiots during the last 5 years, all those broken promises etc have most certainly not gone unnoticed.

      “But you don’t address any of that lack at all”

      Attempting to deceive the electorate by making them think an independence referendum that the Scottish electorate has already given a mandate for, or even exercise Scotland’s right to dissolve a treaty that has become toxic for Scotland is alike UDI because the English establishment cannot face departing from Scotland’s revenues and assets so it uses its power to peddle that such legitimate action is somewhat illegitimate because it does not want it, does nothing to address that unbalance either. As a matter of fact acts to it because it gives credence to a myth peddled to frustrate the dissolution of the treaty.

      “So how do you proceed regardless?”
      By proceeding regardless and cutting through the Bllsht. Exactly as Ms Cherry is doing in all those court cases including the ECJ case. She is my hero. I read today in the Telegraph that the Claim of Right was used to declare the prorogation of Parliament unlawful. Finally the existence of this formidable piece of law has been acknowledged and has been proved to be alive and kicking. I just wish our Claim of Right had been used more often to stop the Kingdom of England representatives, the English gov and Parliament acting as absolute rulers over Scotland.

      “The logical consequence of your insistence on an absolute assertion of right is either a completely futile gesture that falls flat on its face”

      Ms Cherry’s absolute assertion of right was not a futile gesture nor it fell flat on its face. Actually, the ones falling flat on their faces were May and her cabinet after the ruling of the ECJ regarding revoking A50 and now Johnson, his cabinet and the monarch.

      “and sets independence back for ages”
      Nothing further from the truth. The powers that be and the dark forces behind the VIP taxdodgers’ brexit have, perhaps for first time ever, realised that Scotland has the power to stop them on their tracks. Scotland’s independence has never been closer and it is closer because Scotland is saying NO. If the choice is between letting Scotland go or having to implement the EU tax avoidance laws exposing the Tax Havens to full public scrutiny and exposing the VIP taxdodgers to the risk of having their names plastered over the front pages, what do you think the choice will be?

      “or total abandonment of democratic process”


      Are you suggesting that only England MPs can be elected democratically by FPTP because when Scotland does so it is not democratic?

      “and resort to insurrection to enforce your view regardless”

      Insurrection????? I think you have to bring your imagination a notch or two. I defend Scotland saying NO and continuing to say NO to brexit because that is the democratic thing to do: Scotland never voted for Brexit nor it ever gave consent for it. Shouting that from the rooftops is not “insurrection”. That is demanding justice and democracy.

      “which ultimately would escalate to armed”

      Take a look at the decolonisation charter of the UN. It is clearly stated there that the UN does not accept any military or force of other type as an intervention to stop the people’s right to self determination.

      “Another 1920s Ireland? Are you really ready for that?”
      Scaremongering? You are wasting your time. I won’t work. Scotland is not Ireland. Ireland was annexed. Scotland was never annexed. Scotland can legitimately dissolve the treaty of union in the same way England MPs triggered A50. Did you see any tanks from the EU arriving at the UK? If the Kingdom of England attempts anything of the sort it will be an illegitimate take over, a direct violation of the treaty of union. They would give us the green light to take them to the Hague.

    345. Maria F says:

      Col.Blimp IV says:
      13 September, 2019 at 9:27 pm
      Maria F

      “I think we should hold a referendum to put this sovereignty issue to bed once and for all”


      A referendum is not going to change the fact that Scotland’s sovereignty lies with the people of Scotland. If the result of that referendum is yes or is no, the sovereignty of Scotland will remain where it is now: with the people of Scotland.

      “And, I have long been of the opinion that any referendum we hold should be to determine whether we want the Parliament of the UK, the EU or Scotland to have the final say on all matters pertaining to Scotland”


      What exactly are you trying to peddle here? Are you trying to sneak the dissolution of Holyrood via the back door?

      “How could anyone justify any option bar the third one”
      I don’t think anybody can because the people of Scotland demanded both in 1979 and 1997 to have their own parliament, in other words, they took away the legitimacy from Westminster to act on their behalf.

      “The next step would be a doddle … or so Robert the Bruce’s arachnid pal tells me”

      The next step is to wait and see. You may find that we don’t longer need to run a referendum if all those VIP taxdodgers behind brexit decide that their privacy and their beloved tax havens are far more important than keeping Scotland welded to England’s hip.

    346. Terry callachan says:

      My wife said to me today that I’m obsessed by SNP
      I said no I’m not
      I said I might be obsessed by Scottish independence
      She said you most definitely are
      She said everything I talk to you about gets somehow diverted on to the subject of Scottish independence

      She gave an example

      My family were over for dinner on Sunday we happened to discuss names for a new baby
      Several names liked were mentioned
      I happened to say I hate my middle name which is George
      When asked why
      I said because I’m named after my dads oldest brother
      He was named after his grandfather who was named George when he and his parents came to Scotland from Ireland as a show of support for King George , it was done in an effort to fit in with their new neighbours at their home in Scotland apparently many many people do this when moving to a new country they adopt names used in the new country or make slight spelling changes to make their own name look more like what you would find in the newly adopted country so as not to stand out as a foreigner.
      I hate the idea that my Irish great great grandparents felt it necessary to name their baby after King George as a means of being accepted by their new neighbours in Scotland

      My wife said everyone in the room just looked at me and thought I was crazy !

      Maybe my want for Scottish independence is making me crazy ?
      I can’t help it
      I want it so much
      I do think about it and read about it every day

    347. Phronesis says:

      ‘The life of the law is a struggle,—a struggle of nations, of the state power, of classes, of individuals…The law is not mere theory, but living force. And hence it is that Justice which, in one hand, holds the scales, in which she weighs the right, carries in the other the sword with which she executes it. The sword without the scales is brute force, the scales without the sword is the impotence of law. The scales and the sword belong together, and the state of the law is perfect only where the power with which Justice carries the sword is equaled by the skill with which she holds the scales’
      J.von Jhering,The Struggle for Law.

      The scales of justice are easier to balance when applied to a recalcitrant, egregious leader of a recalcitrant , egregious government that exploits and taints all by association.
      ‘A special power of the Court of Session has been brought to bear on Prime Minister Boris Johnson personally and could allow the Clerk of Court to sign in his place – forcing him to extend Article 50.
      Dr Stephen Thomson, the leading authority on the nobile officium, which allows the Court of Session to make any order it considers equitable, said it can permit the Clerk of Court to sign in place of unwilling, “recalcitrant persons”.’

      ‘Whatever political calculations…the suggestion that the government and by implication the civil service will be asked to ignore the settled will of Parliament, is causing increasing consternation among civil servants…No civil servant should believe there is a conflict between complying with the law and serving the government of the day – and no Prime Minister should place the civil service in such an invidious position’

    348. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Maria F says:

      “A referendum is not going to change the fact that Scotland’s sovereignty lies with the people of Scotland”

      You believe that, So do I…So what!

      Most of the people do not…no burning of union jacks in the streets when the sovereign Westminster Parliament overruled the ’79 referendum result…in fact “we” voted overwhelmingly for the same bastards who overruled us, just a few short months later.

      To most people, 1320 was a long time ago, sure people power toppledQween

    349. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Maria F @ 22:25:

      By proceeding regardless and cutting through the Bllsht. Exactly as Ms Cherry is doing in all those court cases including the ECJ case. She is my hero. I read today in the Telegraph that the Claim of Right was used to declare the prorogation of Parliament unlawful.

      We seem to be talking at cross-purposes here, because oddly enough, such action is exactly the kind of practical step which I have been wishing to see (and Breeks too, I dare say, only more so), as opposed to the kind of grandiose declarations of “freedom” without any substance that you appeared to want. I have made my position on that abundantly clear in other earlier postings. So I just don’t comprehend the nature of your previous objections to what we were saying…?

      The rest of what you write goes off in wierd tangents and straw men (FPTP in a highly-loaded WM – who agrees with that, FGS?) that hardly seem pursuing. But if you do actually believe in due process in a legal and democratic context, fine. We won’t disagree about that.

    350. galamcennalath says:

      Terry callachan says:

      I might be obsessed by Scottish independence … I do think about it and read about it every day

      Sigh, me too 🙂

      There are worse afflictions. We could be fanatical BritNats. 🙁

    351. Col.Blimp IV says:

      ???…Queen Mary, but unless the Windsors and the Church of England plan on realigning with The Vatican – the only people who care much about that, will not be on our side to any great extent.

    352. call me dave says:

      @Terry callachan

      Yer aw right! I have been in the same situation for months now, pre-warned by my other half when we meet folk or family ‘not to mention politics too much’ unless somebody else does first.

      Which they often inadvertently do thank goodness.

      I find this time round folk aren’t too tight lipped as in 2013/14. The pennies have dropped from the eyes of many who voted NO or were not interested enough or simply didn’t care and didn’t bother to vote.

      I don’t expect to see the exuberant cheery outward displays as fervent YES did in the lead up to last time for the vote this time round because too many hearts were broken in 2014.

      I think like the NOs did last time a huge quiet committed determined section of voters will be eager to vote YES again or YES for the first time without too much celebrating and I hope it will be big! Anyhoo! Revenge is a dish best served cold.

      Like popcorn 🙂

      I watched ‘Conspiracy Theory’ earlier Mel Gibson + Julia Roberts
      as a break from the norm. Mel Gibson taxi driver!

      Then caught the latest two episodes of In-D-Car (which I enjoy)
      Gordon has got plenty conspiracy theories too.

      Jings! Gordon you better watch out my friend. 🙂

    353. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Terry callachan

      Unless you start writing in “Double Broon’s or Teuchter, profess an undying love of all things EU and sing in praise of even the nuttier schemes of the SNP’s “Woke Wing”.

      You will remain in the eyes of the faithful here, some kind of Unionist Shill.

      The purpose you (or anyone) would be serving here in that role, is, of course, to say the least unclear.

      QSTQ LoL.

    354. mike cassidy says:

      Some late-night reading.

      (wouldn’t archive)

      Northern Irish party drops some EU objections, opening door to Brexit deal

      Irish unionists have long struggled to rally US support – and remain isolated as Brexit beckons

    355. Hamish100 says:

      Col blimp. Is really Col bogey

    356. Tam the Bam. says:


      Just back from the pub.
      A diehard Socialist/Scots Lab said to me…….
      ****** (my name)..why the the f**k don’t you get on board with the national Labour Party.
      We’re still mates.

    357. North chiel says:

      Some really great posts from “ Maria F” tonight . I concur with most of your thinking and assertions . Some “ straight talking “ and “ accurate” “ shooting from the hip” . Yes the opening legal& constitutional “ shots” in the forthcoming battle for our Independence is being led now by Joanna Cherry QC . The “ holding period “ is very nearly over . ( The calm before the storm). Pity about the recent “ restlessness in the ranks”, however it’s TIME TO UNITE. .

    358. Tam the Bam. says:

      Did anyone else manage to unearth the 64 page document relating to the deliberations Summary from the Court of Session

      Well….eventually I found a 3rd page comment from yhe BBC basically saying’ the Court is of the opinion the accused (PM) was wanting pro-rogation for ‘CLADESTINE’ purpose.

      Clear as daylight to me SUPREME COURT!!!

    359. Tam the Bam. says:

      i.e …Clandestine…….(he didnae want Lizzie tae ken!!!)

    360. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Next ‘Friends of WOS’ gig (or whatever else you want to call it) will be in Dows, Glasgow on Friday October 25th.

      Just turn up. Dont worry about times, tickets, or any other trivial shite. It’s gonny happen, so that’s all ye need to know right now.

      If you want details, keep an eye on Off-Topic or follow me on Twitter.

      Hoots all, as aye.


    361. North chiel says:

      “ Tam the Bam@0156” . If the “ Supreme Court” fails to uphold the unanimous verdict of the three Scottish Court of Session Law Lords then be in no doubt this would mark the end of “ the union” .The “ Ultimate Scottish Court” ( of Public opinion) awaits their verdict .
      A timely intervention tonight by Cameron sends a “ signal” to the “Supreme” court and the Britnat establishment .

    362. North chiel says:

      Pps , Johnson’s recent propaganda panicked sudden conversion to “ a deal” is none other than an “ attempted con” for the benefit of “ their Lordships” . Three time “ conman ?? (Queen , judiciary ( however Not COS) and thereafter electorate ( not lady in Doncaster however) . Times up Boris??

    363. Iain 2 says:

      Well said, Maria F @9.54

    364. Ken5900 says:

      @ Like the name Phronesis and the posts. Looked it up.

      Anyone can change their name without obsessing. People can call themselves what they like. Just drop a name they do not like. Osbourne. Gideon. People can call people what they like or an appropriate label. Universal there are some right names especially for politicians causing havoc and acting illegally. Killing off other people and causing suffering. To hold them to account. Tories and others acting illegal and killing others. The Westminster imbeciles. Getting their character. They could not make a bigger mess. The state of it. They are a total disgrace. A world laughing stock. Non representative of most people.

    365. Ken5900 says:

      There are not a lot called the Labour socialist Party or new Labour. Not many left. Especially in Scotland, Nor Tories. Nor LibDems. No wonder, Quite a lot of SNP gaining ground. Fit for lying Johnston. Johnston did not know.Scots and English Law is different, Separate. Viva la difference. He seems to ‘know’ a lot of Greek and Latin. He speaks nonsense and is an ignoramus on other important matters. His morals and principles are questionable but the Press seem to be a little quiet on that protecting him. His past is dubious, He gave a name so they could be beaten up. His father is a ‘celebrity’ raking it in. A serial womaniser. Domestic abuser. .

      Johnston ancestors were Germsn//Europeans. He would not be here except for Europe. His privilege background founded on EU monies, His father was an EU diplomat. Everything Johnston has got came from Europe and EU/public money. He is a right hypocrite. Sponging off others. Murdoch the crooked liar sacked him for telling lies. Murdoch got away with £30Billion tax free supporting killing people.

      Johnston funded by tax evader money. Non Dom tax evaders. The Telegraph. The right wing tax evaders. The Barclay brothers. The Times. Murdoch. Influence destroying the world. Johnston is a migrant born in the US. Johnston is a charlatan who would do anything for personal greed. He would do anything for money. Lying. Destroying any principles. Promoted far above his station and capabilities. Not up to the job.

      Johnston and his criminal lies now being caught out, Another fine mess he is getting into. Going around in circles causing havoc. Johnston will not last until October or Halloween. A horror story. Enough to fear everyone. Frit. Cameron caused it. Cameron has a book out. To line his pockets with public money destroying the economy, The Tories were warned about an EURef.would not take good advice. Now they are going down, especially in Scotland. Destroying their own Party and the economy. People will have none of it.

    366. Golfnut says:

      @ Maria F.

      If we all had your passion and sense of natural justice we would have dissolved this union long ago.
      Scotland’s big guns are the individual and collective sovereignty of the People of Scotland. Scots Constitutional law and the Crown. The Crown is the weakest link and Westminsters Achilles heel. I for one have no illusions the old Maj is up to her to neck in this prorogueing parliament mallarky, I don’t for a second believe she was lied to.

    367. Welsh Sion says:

      Tam the bam @ 1.50 am.

      I already posted this by Googling “Court of Session judgments”. But you’re welcome (Rev permitting) another posting of complete judgment in the Cherry case.

    368. Bobp says:

      My personal belief is the SC will uphold the Scottish courts decision. Thus pointing to the waverers and soft no’s saying, look, you have an equal say in our ‘equal’ union. We are better together, The establishment fear losing Scotland more than brexit.

    369. John says:

      BBC Scotland and their partners in crime the OO have been told by their English and Irish masters to up the anti , stir the big pot , start to cause mayhem , hope for more violence , it will up the viewing figures and create hatred in the streets of Scotland , anything to take the headlines away from the awful ,hopeless ,Tories ,their DUP conspirators and Brexit . I had no idea there were so many OO marches in Scotland and they went on all year , they don’t even do that in Ireland so why Scotland , was it years of Unionist Labour that facilitated

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