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As it is and when it was

Posted on September 04, 2021 by
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shug

Does 2023 indicate she wants a planned run in to a referendum (more organised than the last one) or is it a delaying tactic.

A more fundimental question is, has she been compromised by the state. Were the stories I heard from unionists and police friends true or not.

If she has been compromised, we will be presented with a plan for failure possibly 3 questions on the ballot (including devomax).

The million dollar question is; has she been compromised??
Was the Salmond affair just politics of who makes the decision or was the civil service involvement an indication of the compromise?

We need and answer to the compromised question.

A. Bruce

Twathater@ 10:19

You’re absolutely correct. The YES vote from 2014 was diluted with the incomers who skewed the vote in favour of NO. In no other nation could foreigners enter the country, live there for a year or two and get the privilege of a vote on a life changing nation’s future. I have lived abroad and would never consider that I had a right to take part in determining the course of a nation that I wasn’t a citizen of.

Robert Graham

o/t

From the farcical to the hysterical The Machine continues to crush any and all rational thought

A University in the USA has just prevented unvaccinated on line students from enrolling in the next semester starting shortly , The university in New Jersey , Rutgers is preventing any students that have not been vaccinated from participating in any of its courses.

Even the most vehement backers of this serum and who unquestionably trust what they are being told unless they are comatose they must realise this has gone from a medical emergency and has morphed into some kind of Psychological operation meant to crush normal people’s will.

These little tricks and trials are being tested in some countries and if they are accepted by the public then they are rolled out in other countries and so the boiling frog method works magically rumbles on slowly slowly bit by bit so as to gain acceptance and not cause to many questions to be asked and not cause panic,

Remember everything done by governments ” IS FOR YOUR OWN GOOD ” and anyone questioning their approach will be dealt with for the general publics good, Aye Fkn Right .

James Che.

Really the new spokes person for Alba, and rev stu, arrogant Andy and his ilk need to answer this question,

Where the Scottish people bought in the sale of Scotland, after money exchanged hands under the premise of a mainly trade treaty against the Scottish natives will, actually that Scotland belonged to?

Are the Scots still included in the sale from 1707.

For a sale it was, money was received and payed by England but not to the native Scots whom said NO,

Andy Ellis

@J.o.e 11.23 pm

It’s not a huge surprise you’re utterly confused given some of your output. I’ve no fixation on Stu or anyone else, it just so happens that in relation to this issue, what he originally posted (and what all the nativist tub thumpers have been studiously avoiding) continues to be relevant. The usual suspects continue to attack my position – although strangely they rarely admit it is also Stu Campbell’s position on the matter, and the “mainstream” view of the movement as a whole – but systematically fail to engage with the points raised.

It’s hard not to be derogatory in response to some of the utter drivel being spouted. If folk don’t like it tough. I’m not pulling my punches about calling out regressive ethno-nationalists any more than Stu Campbell did in his original comments. If folk want to clutch their pearls and have a fainting fit, I can’t help them. Perhaps they could, you know…just stop being blood and soil nationalists?

Given your fondness for alt-right politics I’ll give any advice you dispense – however “well meant” – all the credence it deserves. You appear to talk a good game, but like so many of your ideologically grubby regressive claque you come up empty when coming up with actual responses. I should probably have learned my lesson when you linked without a hunt of irony to a widely discredited neo-nazi documentary and advised us all to watch it because it had important things to say.

I think we know what that says about you.

Andy Ellis

@Dan 10.25 pm

It’s neither disingenuous or creating a false picture to state plain facts Dan. People are free to go back and check. Those supporting restricting the franchise are on record in BTL comments as advancing residency criteria which were for the most part much longer than 2 years (which is the ONLY period used in any post WW2 independence referendums, and even then only in a couple out of dozens of examples). Most nativists were pushing for 5 and more commonly 10 years.

It’s interesting that you find honest discourse “twisted and tireless”. I’m not the one twisting facts Dan, or avoiding the issues. I’ll keep doing so until people face facts. One might almost suspect the reason you keep deflecting is that you have no real answers, or inwardly ashamed of your regressive stance. We can but hope.

It’s not “reasonable people” who are calling me out, it is – as I already stated – people I no longer regard as even being on the same side as me if they are pushing these kind of policies. Hard as you and others who support these regressive policies might find it, there are many who agree with me and Stu Campbell.

As for your swipe about “what have you ever done for indy”, please give it a rest. People are free to pursue their interests in whatever ways they wish. For what it’s worth, anyone pushing nativist policies – however many pavement miles they’ve pounded or leaflets they’ve delivered – is no friend of indy in my view, or at least not leading to the type of Scotland I’d want to see.

James Che.

Who wants to join andy’s version of the Scotland he wants for us natives.

Andy Ellis

@Grouse Beater 12.42 am & 12.59 am

“Nativists? Sheesh!”

So tell us Gareth, what are we to call those pushing for what we regard as the deeply regressive franchise change line? “Nativist” seems a pretty accurate descriptor for those who want to limit voting rights to “native born” Scots. Those pushing for it – and those who have fallen for disingenuous and insulting “Scotland as colony” narrative – ought at least to have the courage of their convictions.

Strange that the small minority of fringe cranks fluffing this line have happily been castigating me over the past few months, but tend not to criticise Stu Campbell for using the terms “ethno nationalist” and “blood and soil”. Perhaps that’s just indicative of their lack of courage, as well as their lack of a coherent argument though?

As for you later contention that those who disagree with the regressive nativist prospectus are somehow “inculcated with a sense of guilt” or think we regard what you term “usurpers” as our betters, I’m sure that will come as news to all those you so casually traduce. Do you honestly think I, or Stuart Campbell, or the others who have posted here in the same terms think we have “betters” amongst New Scots, or that we suffer from your posited sense of colonial guilt?

What insulting nonsense. We don’t even accept the basis of the phoney colonialist schtick, still less suffer from any sense of guilt about it.

To say I was disappointed in you in particular in relation to this Gareth would be an understatement, particularly given your earlier personal and unfounded attack on me, and your attempt to draw Stu Campbell in to it. I had always thought you a man of honour. It pains me to see that I was wrong. I won’t be interacting with you again: someone who has made an error, been called out for it and asked for an apology but studiously avoided doing so isn’t someone I feel any need to communicate with further.

J.o.e

Andy you misunderstand me.

I once found your borderline insanity annoying but last night I honestly found myself at the stage of sympathy for someone who is clearly not quite right.

Its not just your way of thinking.

I am a hostile, insulting and often arrogant prick. You make me seem like a shy little girl in comparison. The fact you cannot manage enough self reflection to realise that for every argument you make you detract from it with displays of utter blanket-insulting obnoxiousness has to be the basis of some kind of disorder.

And yes, bringing up ‘Rev Stu says’ in nearly every post is another sign of a lack of self awareness. It is fucking cringeworthy.

Im not up for reading much from you. Im happy you are on the other side of most issues and i’ll leave it mostly at that.

Andy Ellis

@Alf Baird 10.31 pm

It shows the poverty of your discourse if the only comeback you have is that because I (and indeed the vast majority of the movement and Scots in general from what I’ve seen) reject your “Scotland and colony” fantasy, I must ipso facto be aligned with “the oppressor”.

One side of this debate IS playing in to the hands of the British nationalists and unionists, but it’s not the mainstream civic nationalists who support using the same franchise as in 2014 Alf. The ones playing into the hands of our foes are the rag tag assemblage of politically regressive cranks, fringe nutters and alt-right anti-immigrant folks and sadly some of their shills posting BTL here who really ought to know better.

James Che.

The man whom weaponises stu Campbell and Alba against some of the original Scottish people.

Wow.

Andy Ellis

@J.o.e 1.22 pm

I sense we will both be happier for it. As noted earlier, there are quite a few on here I’d happily cross the street to avoid. Given your views Joe, I wouldn’t take anything you said at face value, least of all your laughable attempts at psychoanalysis.

Andy Ellis

@James Che 1.15 pm

“Who wants to join andy’s version of the Scotland he wants for us natives.”

Many more than want to join James’ vision of the Scotland he wants.

Remember James, the 2014 franchise is the default and accepted position of the Yes movement. There’s no evidence of any great appetite for changing it, either from any pro-indy party or from Scottish voters.

It’s not me who is in the minority of the whole movement here, whatever the nativists posting BTL here think from their wee bubble.

Andy Ellis

@James Che 1.28 pm

“The man whom weaponises stu Campbell and Alba against some of the original Scottish people.

Wow.”

The man who unselfconsciously uses the term “the original Scottish people” without realising he sounds like a pound shop Faragist.

Wow.

Geoff Anderson

We are in the current mess because of people like Andy Ellis.
Be nice, be kind, be assured you will soon be assimilated like Wales as part of England with a guaranteed Unionist/ England majority.
Andy would obviously welcome Tibet having a vote on Independence which included all the Chinese incomers in that vote.

The Imperial invader is quite happy to award a “fair vote” when he has moved in sufficient people to guarantee the vote.

Andy would be the polite gentleman as the mugger took his wallet.

J.o.e

It was only 2 paragraphs to I read it:

‘rag tag assemblage of politically regressive cranks, fringe nutters and alt-right anti-immigrant folks and sadly some of their shills posting BTL here who really ought to know better.’

If so irrelevant and fringe why is he getting his pink cotton panties in a twist on a daily basis, throwing everything including the kitchen sink (and Mr Campbell) at these illogical, highly minority, totally not the majority, idiots and trolls?

Ron Maclean

The colonisation argument was avoided during indyref1 and since. Perhaps because it’s too embarrassing for our insipid representatives to admit publicly that they’ve accepted vassal status on our behalf for over three hundred years. They seem happy to enjoy comfortable lifestyles in the service of their colonial masters in exchange for daily humiliation and silence.

The UN does not recognise Scotland as a colony. That does not mean that Scotland does not exhibit some or all of the characteristics of a colonised nation. Unsupported arguments from patronising, abusive commenters won’t change that.

Andy Ellis

@Geoff 1.45 pm

No Geoff, Andy supports Tibetan independence. Scotland =/= Tibet. Tibet is under occupation and does not have the options Scotland does. No matter how often the hard of thinking who parrot the “Scotland is a colony” line, it becomes no more convincing, quite apart from being insulting to those people’s who are subject to colonial oppression.

A “demos” where > 80% of the population are native born which can’t fashion a 50% + 1 majority for independence without disenfranchising a large number of “New Scots” doesn’t deserved to be an independent nation state. Civic nationalism was supposed to be our USP as a movement, not a useful fig leaf to be abandoned for old school ethno nationalism when we couldn’t win the argument.

J.o.e

There’s no such thing as New Scots. You are either Scots or not.

It’s as based in reality as trans-woman or trans-man.

Ron Maclean

Today on talkingupscotlandtwo.com ‘Relocating Trident: Hobson’s Choice’ By Alasdair Galloway.

Lochside

Andy Ellis..ex Lancaster Uni; ex St. Andrews Uni; ex? Babcock employee, you know the BRITISH SECURITY AND DEFENCE company.
Maybe a clue to where your allegiances really are big mouth?
’77’ ring a bell? Retired early Andy or paid by the hour to be an arsehole on here?

Yeah, the Gammon from the south. A bogus Scot Nat, who trolls only Scot Nat ‘nativists’. What are you Andy?… I’ll tell you.. a Britnat troll sent here to disrupt and abuse contributors on what was a Independence site.

You display your English nativist tendencies every time you open your bigoted Gammon mouth. Got the rest of the family up here yet Andy? you fucken fraud.

See ya at the next Wings gettogether and you can tell me and the rest that we are ‘no marks’. You are good at insulting people on ‘the spectrum’ like you did to a previous long term contributor.

You are a shitebag and you hide behind the REV as your comfort blanket. BTW the REV quoted 4 x million English wanted to move here in a poll post Brexit. No chance of swamping us nativists then is there?

Margaret Eleftheriou

Since when did this become the Andy Ellis blog?

James Che.

Since Andy Ellis decided to take control of Rev thinking, Alba’s leadership, and down tread the native of Scotland.

Andy Ellis

@Lochside 2.24 pm

You seem nice.*

*like a typical barely verbal nativist no mark.

Why would I be interested in interacting with a sweary delusional individual who accuses me of being a yoon because he lacks the wit to present any counter arguments? Folk like you are a big part of why the movement is at a standstill. I mean, Cameron Brodie might have been on the spectrum, and we’re all better off for Stu having banned him, but at least he could string a sentence together rather than just engage in vulgar abuse like you.

Andy Ellis

@Margaret 2.31pm

Since the rest of the adults exited stage right and nutter fringe nativists, anti vaxxers and climate change deniers crawled from under their rocks.

Nothing stopping you and others posting as much as you like.

With luck you’re not a moon howler?

Dan

M’kay, hands up who went and reprogrammed the MurphyBot 900.

link to wingsoverscotland.com

Dan

Sigh…
I don’t recall hearing this chant at all those Indy marches.

What do we want?
PRONOUS not POWER!
When do we want them?
NOW!

link to twitter.com

Mac

Margaret Eleftheriou says:
Since when did this become the Andy Ellis blog?

60 or so posts on this thread alone.

Republicofscotland

So the GRA bill will definitely be introduced within the first year of the new parliament, Sturgeon is committed on doing so. It also looks like the not proven verdict, which is not used outside Scotland, is being done so address the low conviction rates on sexual assaults, rather than obtain convictions on merit and evidence, it now appears that not proven verdicts, of which there’s a factor of doubt in the person guilt, will be replaced with a straight guilty or not guilty. the former being the more likely to get the low conviction rates on sexual assault up.

Whether you like or dislike Scotland’s unique not proven verdict, should it be removed to obtain higher convictions because this Scottish government wants to see higher convictions of a certain crimes, that is the question.

Sturgeon has also said that the GRA bill will NOT remove any of the legal protections that women currently have, isn’t that’s what’s happening right now, and won’t the GRA just cement that position.

Infact Sturgeon did nothing when women in her own party such as Joanna Cherry and Joan McAlpine were abused, and threatened online by SNP party members, and SNP personnel.

Also in Sturgeon’s Key Legislative Programme announced recently she’s pledged £12 million pounds to end homelessness, in Glasgow alone the SNP ran city council closed many of the homeless hostels, which led to a big rise in rough sleeping and inturn a rise in deaths through people sleeping on the streets, why should we believe her now, when her party exacerbated homelessness in Scotland.

sarah

O/T: Thank you, Rev, for providing the platform, and numerous facts, on Craig Murray’s position as sole civil prisoner, being subjected to many inhumane indignities.

I used this information to write to The National asking them to take up the cause of pushing Keith Brown into releasing Craig on compassionate grounds, as Kenny MacAskill did for el-Megrahi.

My letter included the detail that Craig did NOT name anyone nor otherwise identify them, whereas a press journalist did tweet a name but all he had to do was apologise. My letter also listed the inhuman indignities – oximeter taken away, no books or stamps allowed, prison uniform imposed when wife and children visit, confined to his cell for over 22 hours – but the article didn’t include all that.

Today an article by Greg Russell has been printed quoting from my letter. I hope that it will inspire many people to email Keith Brown at cabsecjustice@gov.scot, and to their MSP/MP, to press this appeal.

If/when your MSP/MP replies saying the Scottish Government can’t interfere then reply pointing out if Kenny MacAskill did, so can Keith Brown.

Scott

“I too am sick of scrolling past *redacted* endless impenetrable and irrelevant comments on Wings Over Scotland. They are, at best, of no interest to most followers of WOS, and at worst, annoying and off-putting to the point that people are going to stop reading the blog. I am sure most people are reluctant to complain or become involved in ad hominem arguments, but when they do, Stuart Campbell refuses to either take sides or take action against the source of the problem. Surely there is no equivalence between someone who is disrupting the site with multitudes of spam comments, and those who are complaining about the serial spammer and demanding that action be taken?”

– Andy Ellis, 15/12/20 11:38am [www.scots-republic.livejournal.com]

Aye Andy, yer writing isn’t any better on your own webshite…keep kissing that mirror though.

Republicofscotland

The Tories are looking at introducing voter ID laws, to combat what many politicians are saying doesn’t exist, voter fraud, it will cost around £120 million pounds, and it will disenfanchise many folk who won’t get one possibly because they can’t be bothered, or refuse to get one because it will feel authoritiarian.

Why are the Tories looking at this idea, well the folk most likely to be disenfranchised are folk who wouldn’t vote Tory, for the people would also be more likely to come from the poorer sections of society.

This system or one similar to it is already up and running in the USA where millions of American’s are disenfranchised because they don’t have voter ID’s.

Andy Ellis

@Scott 3.30 pm

If you can’t see the difference between what CBB used to post and the situation now, I don’t really know what to say to you? In comparison with then the few posts now get a few hundred comments over several days: back in the bad old days of CBB’s spamming it got a similar number or more per day. You may not be interested in what’s being discussed but at least they are about topics folk are interested in, and interacting with, which could hardly be said of CBB’s contributions.

A number of contributors have made multiple contributions on this thread: I’m not making any apology for it. I was responding for the most part to comments directed at me or in response to earlier posts particularly by J.o.e and James Che and a few others. The number of posts tends to reflect that.

As noted in the comment you quote Stu Campbell has a fairly light touch approach to barneys BTL. Doubtless if he feels it has gone too far or is irritated by it he will take action, which is fair enough – his site, his rules. So far it just looks like a few zoomers whingeing.

Nobody is forcing you or anyone else to read contributions you’re not interested in. Feel free to interject with riveting comments on your own on different topics dear to your own heart. In the meantime, stop trying to tone police other people’s contributions.

As for your criticism of my writing style, you can’t please all of the people all of the time. Doubtless yours is much superior. I’m sure we’re all in for a treat when you share your pearls of wisdom.

Dan

@ ROS at 3.38pm

Aye, and then there was this electronic vote counting contract awarded by the Scottish Government Administrators of Devolved Powers to Idox starting next year…

link to archive.is

Ottomanboi

Whether Scotland is a colony is a matter of subjective perspective. Whether Scotland is a nation is an objective matter. The criteria for nationhood are quite specific. Scotland fulfils the geographic, cultural, historic and societal requirements which not all independent states with UN seats actually possess.
If you consider your country to be a nation going to the UN is a waste of time. It is an organization concerned only with the maintenance of the status quo. It has consistently failed to support the political rights of minorities and subject peoples. Tibetans, Uyghurs, Assyrians, Yezidis, Kashmiris, Maoris, North & South American and Australian autochthonous peoples are a representative example of the UN’s calculated indifference or susceptibility to be «pressurized» by the powerful.
This is a matter where you are on your own.
If Scots nats are serious stop playing the whinging Pom and get on with it!

Republicofscotland

Just why do voter who vote for a certain party/individual on something that they pledge in their party’s manifesto, only to later see that pledge broken, would they get away with such a thing in any other walk of like career wise.

Of late, the UK Tory government has broken a key pledge in its manifesto not to raise National Insurance. Its also come to light that the same Tory government has scrapped the Triple Lock on pensions. The average UK worker receives around a quarter (28%) of the average working wage when they retire, whereas in Austria and Luxembourg that figure is (90%) of the average working wage.

UK pensioner poverty rose to a fifteen-year high with 2.1 million pensioners now living in poverty after housing costs, a increase of over 200,000 since 2018/19.

Surely an independent Scotland could do better.

Pixywine

link to bitchute.com
Hello Brigadoon. This is reality calling.

Pixywine

Andy Ellis has the same nuisance power as CBB.

Pixywine

Andy Brody? Where do I collect my Mars bar.

Republicofscotland

Dan @3.56pm.

Yes Dan ex-Tory minister Peter Lilley has been with IDOX for fourteen years, and there has been some discrepancies in that time.

However the Scottish government claims it has no part in hiiring IDOX.

“After one concerned person asked about the use of “Peter Lilley’s firm”, the Scottish Government responded:”

“The awarding of contracts to Idox, or other commercial companies, was a matter for individual counting officers to decide. The Scottish Government was not involved in this process.”

link to wikispooks.com

Republicofscotland

Justice secretary Keith Brown has been urged to free Craig Murray on compassionate grounds, the mechanism is there as Kenny MacAskill freed a ill Abdel-baset al-Megrahi in a similar fashion.

Murray is the only person to be imprisoned on jigsaw identification laws (via contempt of court), his health is so poor that the judge rued out community service, his condition has been further exacerbated by being locked up twenty-two hours day. Murray is believed the only civil prisoner in Scotland right now, and he’s the the first journalist in seventy-years to be imprisoned for reporting on a court case.

Justice secretary Keith Brown must take action now to free Murray.

Breeks

“ …. The maritime law tribunal of the United Nations has ruled that Britain has no sovereignty over the Chagos Islands. It criticised London for its failure to hand the territory back to Mauritius.”

I didn’t see any Referendum deciding this, I didn’t see any discussion of a Referendum, nor any “Nativist” arguments about whether American Airman stationed on the Chagos Island’s, (nor for that matter Islanders banished from their homes and living in exile), should or should not be included in the voting franchise.

Scotland’s Sovereignty is a binary condition dictated by law, not democracy, and not the voting franchise.

Declare to the World that Scotland’s 1320 Declaration of Arbroath was an affirmation of Sovereignty which secured the contemporary equivalent of International Recognition in 1328, when recognised by the Pope and ratified by the Treaty of Edinburgh / Northampton whereby, England recognised the Nation of Scotland and rescinded any and all claim over Scotland in perpetuity.

These three documents, the Declaration of Arbroath, the Papal bull which recognised it, and the Treaty Edinburgh / Northampton signed by the Dowager Queen of England, all physically still exist, and essentially provide the Modern Nation of Scotland with a Constitutional “Birth Certificate” signed in triplicate.

It is actually farcical even to consider putting this lawful status of Sovereignty to any kind of a vote. Scotland IS sovereign, and anyone who denies that should be denounced as a fraud, a deceiver, or an imbecile. In Sturgeon’s case, it’s probably all three.

It is arguable that the Treaty of Union could not properly survive the resurrection of Scotland’s Sovereign legitimacy, but even if it did cling on to life by a merest thread, (or sliver of parchment), the sovereign people of Scotland could elect to end the Treaty of Union (or give it a similar stay of execution like 2014 revisited), and Westminster would have no power whatsoever to interfere, and every “notion” of reserved powers held by Westminster should properly be laughed out of court and denounced as unconstitutional throughout the Sovereign realm of Scotland.

Do you finally begin to grasp the fact that a Holyrood assembly which swears fealty to Westminster and abides by it’s small ‘c’ constitution written as the 1998 Scotland Act, is actually a wholly unconstitutional aberration, and Section 30 of the Scotland Act represents nothing but Colonial opportunism, where the Palace of Westminster seeks to encroach over Scotland’s Nation status and sovereignty?

Fishy Wullie

Andy Ellis is the man who once said that if the franchise was changed to native born Scots not only would he not vote for independence but would actively campaign against it

He’s a unionist there’s no other way to intemperate that

Breeks

Nativists? Ha! Ha! Ha! I’m so “nativist” I wouldn’t even let the Natives have a vote.

sarah

@ Republic of Scotland at 4.19: “Keith Brown must act now to free Craig Murray”.

I’m sure Keith would like to receive hundreds of emails on this subject at cabsecjustice@gov.scot!!

Republicofscotland

The Auditor General For Scotland ha said Scotland remains divided by inequalities in wealth, education health and opportunity ten years after a landmark report from Dr Campbell Christie.

Yet the current SNP governments priorities appear to be the GRA bill and scrapping the not proven verdict to secure more convictions on sexual assaults.

Ottomanboi

From the National.
«NIcola Sturgeon has warned of the possibility of taking “targeted and proportionate” action to stem the spread of Covid as cases continue to surge»
Scottish politics a one woman band?
Is there no one prepared to stand up to this covid scare nonsense and its self-gratifying purveyors?
link to off-guardian.org
Does she get off on this? All those men salivating for the deathly, dreary dominatrix?

Republicofscotland

Meanwhile under Humza Yousaf’s guidance as Health secretary, August saw a record low (74.2%) of people being seen at A&E in Scotland within the four hour allotment time.

Yousaf must surely be the anti-Midas, every post he serves in public services turns to dust.

Dan

@ ROS

Cheers for the correction re. awarding contract comment. I posted in a hurry as was on phone and still melting from being in the sunshine lifting a hundred onions from the veg bed…

On contract awarding subject, I recall looking at that years back and it seemed to be groups of local authorities procuring the contracts.
Interesting reading on possible electoral activity in 2016 and 2017 from this extracted section in the first archived link. Why would that be and in relation to what?

II.2.1)Total quantity or scope:
During the period of the contract the Purchaser expects to require services for the following elections:
2013 – Currently there are no planned elections, however this may be subject to change
2014 – European Parliamentary Election, possible Referendum
2015 – UK Parliamentary Election
Possible activity in 2016 and 2017, subject to the Purchaser agreeing an extension:
2016 – Scottish Parliamentary Election
2017 – Local Government Elections (this is subject to any other negotiated contracts agreed by Scottish Government or Election Management Board for Scotland, with any Scottish Government or Election Management Board for Scotland contract taking precedence over this contract for the provision of electoral services or part thereof for Local Government Elections)
Estimated value excluding VAT:
Range: between 500 000 and 800 000 GBP

link to archive.is

link to archive.is

Dan

Like they knew the EU vote was coming…

Ruby

Andy Ellis says:
8 September, 2021 at 2:48 pm
@Margaret 2.31pm

Nothing stopping you and others posting as much as you like.

With luck you’re not a moon howler?

Reply
That isn’t true Andy.

Consideration for others would stop folk posting as much as they like.

Scott

Dan says:
8 September, 2021 at 5:05 pm

Like they knew the EU vote was coming…

The possible activity refers to the planned elections as stated below…?

Ruby

Andy Ellis says:

Nobody is forcing you or anyone else to read contributions you’re not interested in

Reply

How do you know if you are or are not interested in contributions unless you read them?

It’s not as if you give your posts a title/subject.

ie. Reply to Joe re Franchise No 146.

Ebok

J.o.e @10.20am
“You made a mistake though – the people in our government are controlled. They are not doing this by themselves and from their own initiative.”

I suppose the sceptics will say that this is straying into conspiracy theory territory, but to me it’s a no brainer that politicians are merely vassals following orders.
I’ve suggested in the past that those who have benefitted from and control the trillions amassed during the Brit Empire period took hegemony to a new level after the Russian revolution, for fear of losing their incalculable wealth.
It is inconceivable that these power players do not infiltrate ALL groups of potential influence, and brutally destroy or assume control of any that may cause problems. The Labour Party, SNP, Civic Institutions, and MSM are obvious examples.

It may have happened for other reasons, but look what has happened since, say, the 1980’s: –
the Falklands, destruction of the unions, industry decimated, poll tax, mass unemployment, political collaboration with unelected EU hierarchy, abandoning clause 4, full blown neo liberalism, gold standard abandoned, Iraq, bankers bail out, austerity, mass immigration, Libya/Syria/Afghanistan, unashamedly suborned MSM, indoctrination in schools, freefall in education standards, spiralling drug deaths, record levels of child poverty, GRA, HCB, amoral government, covid 19, fabiani stitch-up, suppressing free speech, redact, redact, redact, and so much more.

All this could not possibly happen in a system of fair and transparent government in one of the wealthiest countries in the world without massive influence being brought to bear by unelected interests. And rather than have a rapport with the public, we are inundated with propaganda from media and politicians in the form of recurring cliches as a cover for concealing the direction of travel
These of course include, ‘Lessons will be learned’, ‘There’s work to be done’, ‘The People of Scotland’, ‘We’re all in this together’, ‘We celebrate multiculturalism’ and countless more meaningless slogans recited word for word by the party faithful.

What I cannot do, and cannot see from these pages, is find a way out. There is no telling how far we have yet to fall in this bottomless, self-indulgent pit. We need solutions, and fast, but take care not to place the burden on too few shoulders, or on a fledgling political party.
If there is one thing I want to hear from Greenock this weekend, it is a plan for the independence movement to make every citizen aware that there is a dangerous level of iniquity preying over our country, and to call out very vociferously those responsible.
Scotland must waken up and recognise that Independence, no matter what difficulties that may unfold, cannot come quickly enough, and it is the only platform on which to build a just society.

Dan

@ Scott

Could well be I suppose.
This procurement process presumably had to be tendered as per EU rules? If so I wonder how that process is dealt when there are snap General Elections outwith Fixed Term Parliament Act.

twathater

@ Breeks 4.35pm Exactly Breeks, why is it then that we don’t have senior members of the legal profession challenging this obvious anomaly
I know why Sturgeon and HER SNP have assiduously avoided it apart from making vague claims that it could be looked at but never made any attempt to move forward on it

Why if this is a better avenue to pursue freeing our statehood from the union has Joanna Cherry not moved to ALBA and in conjunction with Alex Salmond and the rest of the legal professionals within and without ALBA focused on this glaring usurpation of our sovereignty

Why when it is an accepted FACT and supported by documentary evidence by WM and HR that Scots are sovereign that we have to ask ANYONE’S permission to hold ANY referendum on any subject , those are not the actions of ANY sovereign people and they are not the actions that our representatives of those sovereign people should be accepting

We KNOW by her actions that Sturgeon is either one of them or has been compromised , but what of the other indy supporting parties , why are they not openly shouting this from the rooftops , why are they not EXPOSING this deliberate subservience to WM when it is not legal and not required , what are they waiting for

I thank Alex Salmond for returning to the fray and giving us hope prior to the May election but the assumption that Sturgeon had integrity or honesty was badly misjudged, since then there has been NOTHING , I would hope ALBA members at their conference will INSIST that the gloves come off , that the attacks and exposure that Sturgeon is and has been lying will be uppermost in their publicity, that they emphasise that Sturgeon and her green allies have PRIORITISED fraudulent gender issues rather than the health , welfare and education of our youngest citizens

Ian Brotherhood

@Ebok (5.27) –

Well said.

FWIW, I don’t expect to see anything like a ‘just society’ in my lifetime (I’m 58).

No institutions seem trustworthy because they are all in thrall to The State/Crown, Big Finance, or some combination. Anyone who achieves prominence in politics is usually blackmail material before they’re even allowed to get started. Charities are all corrupt cash funnels for redundant aristocrats and retired ‘National Treasure’ entertainers/celebrities. Universities can only survive by agreeing to teach gibberish. No political party seems worth being a member of because they are always infiltrated and wrecked…

I’m sure others could add to the list.

If it does ever change for the better, it’ll be because some of the guilty are prosecuted and do some serious porridge. But wait, oh, that’s right, the justice system itself is bought and paid for, and so we go round, again and again…

Who knows?! Perhaps Prince Andrew is a case in point – functioning as a gauge may well be the only truly useful thing he’s ever done in his life. If he stands trial *AND* gets the slammer, perhaps, just perhaps, there is hope.

😉

Captain Yossarian

“unashamedly suborned MSM, indoctrination in schools, freefall in education standards, spiralling drug deaths, record levels of child poverty, GRA, HCB, amoral government, covid 19, fabiani stitch-up, suppressing free speech, redact, redact, redact, and so much more.” This hasn’t happened in the last 40-years, it has happened in the last 10 years.

If Holyrood could be trusted, then it would be given adequate powers to hold the administration properly to account. But, it is not trusted and the current example is the fact that the increased NHS funding will be paid directly from Westminster to the NHS boards in Scotland. It will not go via the Scottish Government because it just gets siphoned off if it gets done that way.

Margaret Eleftheriou

I don’t post here very often because I have important issues to deal with outside the UK; a)I ask questions about Craig Murray, Scotland’s shamefully imprisoned political prisoner; b) because my questions are answered promptly and helpfully.

I don’t have time to read what are for me irrelevant posts, within my time and geographically constrained personal situation.

James Che.

See Andy is selective in his responses,

Earlier today I asked wether the Scots were sold WITH THEIR Country of Scotland when the money financial recompense was made to a few men whom did not own the kingdom Scotland as sovereignty had been handed to the Scottish people by the king before 1707.

The native population were not asked and when it was discovered at a later date the Scots said NO to the sale they named the 1707 treaty of the union,
The Scots rebelled, and England sent an army up to the borders to squash the objection by use of force.

Based On those facts, were and are the Scots still included as bill of sale dating from 1707 imposter Treaty, named the treaty of the union?

Andy Ellis

@ James Che 6.28 pm

I may have missed the odd response. You honestly can’t win here with some of you roasters: some of them moan about folk posting too much, other moan you don’t respond to their every post. FWIW, the nutter that complained I’d posted too much on this thread, I hardly think the number over the curse of 4 days is excessive, particularly as they were overwhelmingly responding to (mostly) posts from yourself James or J.o.e and a few others.

A number of other other folk posted similar numbers, like Ruby, pixywine and others. Interestingly they get a free pass.

I’m not interested in your obsession with the Treaties of Union and what happened 300 years ago. It isn’t germane to what we’re discussing now. 18th century Scotland wasn’t a democracy. If your posts are worth responding to, I will, if not…then not, okay?

Andy Ellis

@Ruby 5.27 pm

Why am I particularly required to title my posts? Nobody else does so. On this thread they’ve mostly been direct responses to the person’s post at the time I put at the start, as I’ve done here. Not sure what your issue is?

Scanning back you’ve posted a similar number of posts to me on this thread: I didn’t see you taking your advice.

Sensibledave

Breeks 4.35

Sorry mate, I do admire your words, your sentiments and your passion – but “the people of Scotland” (I.e the majority thereof), don’t agree with you. When asked, they repeatedly indicate they (the majority) prefer to stay in the Union.

Only when a majority indicate they want independence will indyref2 happen (ie when the Scottish government is confident,mand when Westminster have no arguments left).

Instead of venting in this echo chamber – folk need to get out and change minds. At the moment, support for the “cause” is in the minority. Change that.

Andy Ellis

@Sensibledave 6.56 pm

It isn’t necessarily true that when a majority indicate they want independence, #indyref2 will “magically” happen is it? It wouldn’t matter if the current polls showed a consistent 60% or 70% in favour if Westminster just continues to say no. BoJo and the British nationalist establishment don’t have to justify their refusal, because there are at present no consequences of them doing so. SNP MPs insisting it’s a democratic outrage, or Nicola cultists like Wishart insisting Westminster will just give in are delusional.

Either we have to put the matter beyond legal doubt, or if we can’t do that change tack to plebiscitary elections.

We won’t build a majority in the short to medium term without a campaign to galvanise support, and given the SNP’s intensely relaxed attitude to actually progressing the cause, nowt much is likely to change until 2026 anyway is it?

Dan

Andy Ellis says: at 7:07 pm

…Either we have to put the matter beyond legal doubt, or if we can’t do that change tack to plebiscitary elections.

Just for clarity presumably these would have to be the Scottish Parliament Elections seeing as they are the only ones that utilise the voter franchise you endorse?

Sensibledave

Andy Ellis

I believe you are wrong on that.

It is also, I would suggest, an excuse.

Build the majority – then you have morality and democracy on your side. Until then, you literally have no mandate and cannot claim to speak on behalf of “the people of Scotland”. Arguably, it might be said that you are trying to impose your will on the majority by all and any means – other than democracy. Not a good look.

Ruby

Andy Ellis says:
8 September, 2021 at 6:52 pm
@Ruby 5.27 pm

Why am I particularly required to title my posts?

Reply

Sigh!

Because you are the one saying

‘Nobody is forcing you or anyone else to read contributions you’re not interested in”

My question was how do people know what posts are about without reading them?

Perhaps you could go back and read my post alternatively you could just ‘let it go’.

I know that is a big ask for you this ‘ letting it go’ malarky.

wee monkey

From that arch toaree Murdo what’s his name…

“This afternoon in the PfG debate
@ScotParl
, I raised the concerns of many women who have lobbied me about GRA reform, to have

@NicolaSturgeon

shouting at me ‘shame on you’ from her seat.

Shocking dismissal of those women with a contrary view. Respectful debate?
@ForwomenScot
5:33 PM · Sep 8, 2021·Twitter for iPhone

He has a point.

If this is the state of sturgeons mind then she needs sectioning.

Andy Ellis

@Dan 7.07 pm

I think if #indyref2 can’t be achieved due to britnat veto or legal wrangling not being sorted out, the movement as a whole should simply declare that every subsequent general election (whether for Holyrood or Westminster) should be regarded as plebiscitary.

We don’t control the Westminster franchise, so we just have to work with it as it is. The next Holyrood election seems the best option.

Of course I have my doubts the current SNP and Green party leadership will have much interest in the plebiscitary election path.

wee monkey
Andy Ellis

@Sensibledave 7.15 pm

You’re wrong. We do have (multiple) mandates where the Scottish public voted for pro-indy parties who specifically said they were standing on the platform of holding another indyref.

Even worse from your point of view, polling – including one commissioned by this site – consistently shows that an overwhelming majority of Scots think it should be entirely a matter for Holyrood when and how often we hold referendums. That must mean a significant number of unionist voters believe this.

Facts, eh?

Scot Finlayson

Murdo Fraser standing up for all 2,500,000 Scottish woman in the Transcult Reichstag,

and

She/Her screams `shame on you`,

this is chilling ,

She/Her and the Green Goblin have another 5 years to eradicate all the hard won woman`s rights.

robertknight

link to news.sky.com

I’m sure Manny Singh is thinking he’s through the looking glass if he sees that headline.

holymacmoses

Andy Ellis says:
8 September, 2021 at 7:33 pm
@Sensibledave 7.15 pm

Facts, eh?

Sensible Dave is too lazy to be sensible of what a fact is Andy.
He’s here for the spurtle – as I’m sure you know.

Ruby

wee monkey says:
8 September, 2021 at 7:27 pm
Clip

link to scottishparliament.tv

Reply

It’s not clear if she/her shouted shame on you (Murdo Fraser) or shame on them (the women)

Not that it matters! Anyone who disagrees with she/her’s views on GRA should be ashamed of themselves.

Scott

If this so-called social care tax is purely for the benefit of England, how can it be lawful to tax the Scots?

Income tax is devolved, the Cons could & should have raised all the money for England in England.

England may as well be an island.

This tax, fewer Welsh MPs, Northern Ireland, everything the Tories do, and more…it’s shite being seen as British.

If Alister Jack passes this for consent of the Crown, I suspect a legal challenge.

Ruby

Scot Finlayson says:
8 September, 2021 at 7:52 pm

She/Her and the Green Goblin have another 5 years to eradicate all the hard won woman`s rights.

Reply

Well they can try but I think they are going to have quite a fight on their hands.

‘Women Won’t Wheesht’

I don’t expect men will either when they find out some pervert has exposed his erect penis to their children in the ‘Girls/Womens’ changing rooms.

Nicola Sturgeon is insane!

Alf Baird

Ottomanboi @ 3:59 pm

“Whether Scotland is a colony is a matter of subjective perspective. Whether Scotland is a nation is an objective matter. The criteria for nationhood are quite specific. Scotland fulfils the geographic, cultural, historic and societal requirements which not all independent states with UN seats actually possess.”

Scotland fulfills the requirements in regard to the definition of a colony, as Ireland did previously: political control by another country; economic exploitation by another country; and occupation by a people from that other country. This is a matter of objective fact.

link to yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com

lumilumi

Just checking if/how/why my username/login works someplace but not others.

I was a busy one here back in 2011 onwards, Sturgeon’s rule and stuff at home since 2014 have reduced my participation, and now WoS BTL has bacome an unproductive cesspit of anti-vaxxers, unionist trolls and all kinds of…

OK, so maybe we all are susceptible to divert our energies somewhere else when the one goal is thwarted.

For instance, all women in Scotland shoud direct their energies against the Hate Crime Act and the proposed GRA reform – self-ID and the eradication of women as a political, social, or indeed a material reality class.

Nicola Sturgeon can claim to be “feminist to her fingertips” but she always centers men and their feeelz. She/her can claim to be for independence but always centers UK feeelz. She/her is a total fraud.

She/her has run the devolved Scotland so badly many 2014 soft yes/no people, especially women, are turning against indy if it means the gender gobledygook. At least Westminster is being more restrained and seen to protect women’s rights.

Southernbystander

Alf Baird

Occupation by a people from another country? In what sense in the 21st century – English people living in Scotland?

Tannadice Boy

Ruby/ Scot Finlayson 7:52 and 8:10pm
I would agree with both of you. True somehow Scotland voted for the SNP and there are in for another 5 years. That’s democracy. Countless warnings were issued. Ruby I wouldn’t phrase it that way but agree with your sentiment. Men have been aware for sometime about the protection of young girls spaces. My own circle of influence has discussed this many times before the election. We are waiting on it happening and we will respond accordingly. Shame on you is the quote. They don’t know what they are about to unleash.

Southernbystander

Alf Baird

I see from your link above you say:

“Scotland has been and continues to be occupied by significant numbers of ‘sxxlerx’ from the ‘administrative Power’, people from England comprising the largest ethnic migrant group in Scotland.”

So English people simply living in Scotland are migrants, an ethnic group, ‘sxxlerx’ and above all, ‘occupiers’, and is a key justification for Scotland being a ‘colony’. And this is an ‘argument’ from a life-long academic, though pretty obviously not in colonialism. What next, required repatriation of the occupiers? Or just generally making sure people don’t feel welcome any more? Calling people ‘occupiers’ is a great start! Do you do it to your English neighbours’ faces?

Andy Ellis

@Southernbystander 8.45 pm

The “Scotland as colony” narrative requires the identification of a group that hard thinking nativists can hold responsible for the inability of the >80% of the population that was born here to deliver a clear majority for independence. Notice that they never face up to this huge in-built majority.

Similarly, they can’t (or don’t want to?) see how repellent the comparison is for places that have suffered real colonial rule and oppression.

Ethnic nationalism is repellent. I’m happy not to be on the same side as the “little Scotlanders” who are advocating for it.

Brian Doonthetoon

Hi lumilumi at 8:34 pm.
You typed,
“I was a busy one here back in 2011 onwards, Sturgeon’s rule and stuff at home since 2014 have reduced my participation, and now WoS BTL has bacome an unproductive cesspit of anti-vaxxers, unionist trolls and all kinds of…

For instance, all women in Scotland shoud direct their energies against the Hate Crime Act and the proposed GRA reform – self-ID and the eradication of women as a political, social, or indeed a material reality class.

Nicola Sturgeon can claim to be “feminist to her fingertips” but she always centers men and their feeelz. She/her can claim to be for independence but always centers UK feeelz. She/her is a total fraud.

She/her has run the devolved Scotland so badly many 2014 soft yes/no people, especially women, are turning against indy if it means the gender gobledygook. At least Westminster is being more restrained and seen to protect women’s rights.”

Back in the “noughties”, there were two women in the SNP whom I thought showed promise for the future. One was Roseanna Cunningham; the other was Ms she/her Sturgeon.

With hindsight, I think Ms Cunningham was seen as as too “radical” for the party ‘high heid yins’; Ms she/her was seen as a safe pair of hands.

Can you imagine what state the SNP would be in NOW, if Ms Cunningham had replaced Ms she/her as flavour of the month?

I left the SNP and joined Alba, because of the intransigence over independence and the holy grails of the HCA and gender self ID.

The problem we have in Scotland is that the MSM are selective in what they report. Thus, the average “man on the Fintry bus” has no idea of what the governing party has in mind.

We have to ask: why are the MSM so supportive of the current SNP management and its policies?

Brian Doonthetoon

BTW: I always read your comments and replied to you on a number of occasions.

You never replied to my mention of Sibelius…

8-(

Tannadice Boy

@BrianDoonthetoon 9:34pm
The Fintry bus now you are talking. You must know my brother he has been complaining about the Fintry buses for decades. I would disagree with lumilmi it was always down to men to solve GRA. We are nothing if we don’t protect our young girls. I have listened to you about joining Alba. I sit on the fence. Unconvinced that measures are in place to prevent entryism. Anyhoo great result for Scotland.

Ottomanboi

In the meantime, in Covidian universe, the Chinese and the Americans are apportioning territory.
Belt and road, coke and netflix, take your choice of imperialisms. The only choice you will in years to come be offered. Unless free nations, if there are any left, revolt.
There is, of course, a third «choice» which is hardly a choice per se, Islam. Both America and China are shit scared of it.
Don’t know whether to laugh or cry!

Scot Finlayson

Late goal for Poland,

my nativist heart is broken, poor old englandshire,

Southhall`s tactic of boring teams/fans/tv to death and then sneaking a late goal nearly worked again.

Fred

Alf Baird @8:26 PM
“Scotland fulfils the requirements in regard to the definition of a colony”

Honestly Alf, it’s you who’s colonised Wings with this ceaseless, incessant narrative in a desperate bid to get some half-wit to buy into it.
‘Tell you what, both Middlesbrough and Burnley are both less than a couple of hours drive from the border. Take a drive down at the weekend and do a street survey, asking them how the economic exploitation of Scotland is working out for them.

Question: Do you think when New Labour was in full swing with Blair, Brown, Cook, Darling,Robertson – and lets throw in Alastair Campbell as well seeing as his entire heritage was Scottish, that it would be reasonable to suggest that the rest of the UK was then colonised by Scotland? It certainly fits your three criteria for it.

Pixywine

Ellis the midwit decides you are spam because you disagree with his own brand of wokery. Andy. Did you know that your public Onanism is embarrassing for the rest of us?

Pixywine

Like a dog licking it’s own bollocks Andy.

Alf Baird

Southernbystander @ 9:18 pm

“So English people simply living in Scotland are migrants, an ethnic group, ‘sxxlerx’ and above all, ‘occupiers’, and is a key justification for Scotland being a ‘colony’.”

The census describes the largest ‘ethnic migrant group’ coming to Scotland being people from England, that is a fact. If you have a problem with that then take it up with National Records of Scotland. As for the ‘key’ aspect or objective of colonialism, in postcolonial literature that is generally considered to be economic plunder and exploitation.

Pixywine

Sturgeon should be ashamed of her abject adherence to the Cult bandwagon of Tyranny anti science. She’s a nutter.

lumilumi

@ Brian Doothedoon @ 9.37 080921

Oh, I’m so sorry. Not replying was not ignoring, it might’ve been a busy time personally. And then I wasn’t here so much… So…

I love Sibelius’s music but it’s such a cliche. A Finn liking Sibelius, ay? Also, Sibbe and his artist mates like Axel Gallen-Kallela, were at the forefront of Finland’s independence struggle in the late 19th century, but by the time we gained independence, 1917, Sibbe & co. were “comfortable middle-age” and “old skool”, therefore irrelevant, at least according to the young politicians in the newly independent country. 😀

Nobody remembers their names now, but we remember the names of Janne Sibelius, Akseli Gallen-Kallela and their ilk. People who put their professional lives (even lives) on the line to fight for independence. Nobody cares for the careerist who swept in after independence, after somebody else did the work and won independence, perhaps at great personal cost. No, the young careerist swoops in, knows it all, better than people who were there, and did it all.

Nowadays, their subversive activities are appriciated.

Akseli Gallen-Kallela painted a picture of himself, Jean Sibelius, Oskar Merikanto, and Robert Kajanus plotting Finnish independence. Here:

link to fi.wikipedia.org

They were despairing of independence of Finland, got regularly drunk, and Sibbe went on to compose “Finlandia”. Akseli got to paint the frescos in our National Museum.

I think Scottish independence is in the drunk, despair stage depicted in A G-K’s “Symposium”.

It took 20-some years but Finland got its independence.Then the Akseki Galln-Kallelas and Jean Sibeliuses got comfortable, and, in time, establishment figures.

We modern people cannot understand how subversive, even revoultionary, Aksel’s art and Janne’s music were at the time.

Pixywine

Lumilumi. “Anti vaxxers”?. I am fully vaccinated but I refuse to take part in a gene therapy experiment. You crack right on but I refuse to be blackmailed by Tories Tartan or otherwise. I also voted for Independence but have become disappointed in the wholesale collapse of common sense in people who used to make sense to me.
If you must repeat Government nudge words like “anti vaxxer” there’s no hope for you and its just as well you don’t post so often. You were always a long winded navel gazer anyway.

Hatuey

People didn’t politicise things like vaccines and viruses before the Internet.

That’s all.

J.o.e

@Ebok

(apologies this post has gone on a long way. If you dont read it id understand)

Thanks for that excellent post.

You asked ‘What I cannot do, and cannot see from these pages, is find a way out.’

In my opinion the problem is best considered this way:

We know the political route inside out and it is unlikely to lead us to anything like what we want or need in the short term (i.e within 10 years at the very least).

The legal side of things, which is not something I know much about, I would suspect is pretty well tied up also and the evidence appears to back that up.

So for the time being the average Scottish citizen is wasting his or her time spending much time thinking about the politial route.

However lets not be fooled into thinking there will be a route out this way on its own. We are up against an international financial cartel of unbelievable scope of which the British establishment is but a part. I could paint a very black picture that before the trans nonsense and before covid most people could never have begun to swallow, all I could do was point out mostly domestic issues from the perspective of understanding the bigger picture. A bigger picture quite a few on this blog are now beginning to see by the looks of it.

What Scotland needs is a Scottish nationalist movement that is fierce, is out to defend and promote the well being of Scots in every facet of life including politics but much further – into economics, education, legal, health. Teach Scots how to form and run local communities, how to boost their local economies. Perhaps most important of all is how to think like a nationalist and drop the baggage of false guilt we are taught to feel about it (borne of propaganda and poisonous ideologies) and display a real unflinching pride and confidence. Pretty much everything. We must start to provide for our people what the state isn’t.

Of course the trouble is where the honest hell do you start with that?

Firstly it takes a small group to start showing the way. This involves building up a picture of the world as it is, without apologies, and without caring if this truth is rejected at first. What counts is that we are trying to be as objective as possible.

Examples: effectively challenging the covid narrative, showing the historical roots of the policies being forced on us as well as the false narratives that seek to essentially castrate nationalist spirit, how the real economy works and with all that calling out the politicians and showing people what they will do before they do it. This will put us in a position of being looked at as a guide to the Scots who more and more will be forced to face harsh realities.

Secondly: once we have established that we basically ‘get it’ how the world, finance and our politics really works with a good predictive ability and being able to get the right information to people to help them understand so that they are not simply lost in a world of MSM, internet aliens/flat earth, and slime politicians we can then start to work on bottom-up solutions for Scots (and other inhabitants of our country) to start regaining control of their lives. Particularly the young.

These bottom up solutions will include –

1 – help to organise economic function within local communities. I have already wrote about this but it is critical. We simply cannot be sending massive amounts of money to our enemies in the investment/banking class by spending it in Plc’s or larger private enterprises. We must be making efforts for Scots to get an increasing share of that and promote and support private enterprise in our own people. From food, to clothes, to trades, to logistics everything. We must show how to set up cooperatives and how to function in business. We must aim to have as much of this in the hands of Scots and Scottish citizens as possible. Its a long project but it must happen. The roots of power in our world are economic.

2 – schooling. We need to make it fairly easy for Scottish families to educate their children better and in line with our own values. Whether it is outright home schooling or support. Scottish children need to start getting their brains back and avoid the utter poison that is considered ‘normal’ now.

3 – health. We need to make it easy for Scots to avoid the predations of a pharmaceutical industry that is running amok and offer sources of information that improve health and fitness in line with real science and not the shit that gets put out to profit what are now without a doubt international criminals. We need to make it possible for our people who dont fall for the covid vaccine pish to get health advice and if possible attention by medical professionals who are on the same page.

There’s more ive thought of but ill stop with those examples.

Thirdly – with the basics established and offering a wide spectrum of support and positive motivation for our people we then start to set up a more centralised grouping that aims to take on the establishment directly.

Do you know how many millions per month revenue a trusted and capable organisation could gain from Scots nationalists simply by transferring TV license towards our organisation? It could easily be over 10m per month. That funding would serve as the basis of what I would consider the embryo of a parallel state.

It could begin to finance:
1 – a dedicated and professional media outlet
2 – a small dedicated legal team whose entire job is to challenge the establishment and take up cases for our people.
3 – a massive boost in our abilities to push everything mentioned til now.

Fourth – this would be an ongoing project which is to reach out and link with all other nationalist movements and parties that are not obvious violent extremists. We would help to push the idea of a global movement of nationalists that seek to take back their homelands and future from international corporate criminals.

When it comes to nationalism Scotland is an example of bravery, courage, spirit and fairness known all over the world. When it comes to nationalism our ‘brand’ is probably the leader. The establishment know this and this is why a constant stream of poison and attempts to make us guilty for expressing real nationalist spirit is applied. They know they must dampen us down. They are actually really scared of this escaping them in my view and for this purpose a lot of effort is expended in order to keep it confined.

Fifth – once most of everything else is in order make political power the objective. We will already have built the foundations and shown our intentions and will have brought many of our people, and probably many who are not, into our fold. We will already be demonstrating how much better Scots (or anyone in the world) can do by taking our route. Without firing a shot we will have waged outright war on the establishment and improved the lives of ordinary people in doing so. Those who don’t start off with our way of thinking will come to us anyway because we will be the only ones offering solutions that are practical and possible for everyone.

Our ethos should be that we support every sovereign nation on earth and that we stand in solidarity with all peoples of all colours and religions. We will universally promote the spirit of nationalism.

Pixywine

Sturgeon plans to keep the “unvaccinated” locked down and restricted. I told you dumb assed Jocks this was coming a year ago. When you called me a “conspiracy theorist” you didn’t let on that you actually liked the idea. Fascist bastard First Minister.

Alf Baird

Fred @ 10:38 pm

“Question: Do you think when New Labour was in full swing with Blair, Brown, Cook, Darling,Robertson – and lets throw in Alastair Campbell as well seeing as his entire heritage was Scottish,”

Postcolonial literature is quite clear on the matter of the bourgeoisie native mimicking the colonizer in terms of assuming his culture, language and values in order to maintain their privileges and status under colonial rule. In this regard they discard their own national heritage, culture and language, that is assuming it is Scottish to begin with. What did you think private (colonial) schools and ‘elite’ universities were for? Here we may also differentiate between Scots and Anglo-Scots, much as with the Irish and Anglo-Irish, or the Indian and Anglo-Indian under colonialism.

lumilumi

@ Tannadice Boy 9:56

Oi! If you have beef with Brian, keep ME out of it! Ay? Or do you want to mock me as well? For my deeply held belief in the fact that sex is real?

I’m a woman – and you know it – but what if I self-id’d as a man, would you take me or my opinions more seriously?

Yeah, I didn’t think so.

Alf Baird

J.o.e @ 11:21 pm

“Our ethos should be that we support every sovereign nation on earth and that we stand in solidarity with all peoples of all colours and religions. We will universally promote the spirit of nationalism.”

An excellent and admirable ethos, as reflecting a vibrant independent national culture and national consciousness no longer subject to external domination, oppression and colonialism.

lumilumi

Pixywine says:
8 September, 2021 at 11:18 pm

Duly noted. I’ll just go and gaze at my navel now.

Way to promote discussion on any topic.

Sigh.

David Caledonia

The Scottish Government

Told by england what to do, and what not to do

The Scottish Government

The same old bland discussions about it every day

Talking about the scottish Government all the time, The Queen of Scotland and her tribe of monkey followers

Groundhog Day

Hatuey

Pixywino “Sturgeon plans to keep the “unvaccinated” locked down and restricted. I told you dumb assed Jocks this was coming a year ago…”

We should have listened to you. If only we had fucking listened.

Is it too late? What can we do?

twathater

@ Fred 10.38pm Fred do you honestly believe the clowns you mentioned have any feelings for their country or countrymen/women ,

Those proud Scots BUT are a big part of the reason we are in the shit state we are now

Those self serving creepy arseholes done everything in their power to HIDE the enormous wealth that was available to Scotland and its people
Those same proud Scots BUT who were in government in Scotland for DECADES yet their representative Jack the lad mcConnell handed back £1 billion to WM because he couldn’t find anything worthwhile to spend it on. Jack who is now LARD Mc Connell his reward for his treachery while Scots suffered poverty , those people aren’t Scottish they are hooooors

Ruby

Brian Doonthetoon says:

We have to ask: why are the MSM so supportive of the current SNP management and its policies?

Reply

The question is who are the MSM?

Do they work for the SNP writing press releases which they pass onto Tom Gordon for publication in Herald?

Is ‘The Herald’ etc reliant on government funding and taxpayer funded articles written by SNP spin doctors?

Is this happening because we no longer buy what the MSM produce and prefer to fund online bloggers?

Ruby

My question regarding J.O.E & Pixywine is:

Are these guys all talk and no action?

J.o.e

@Ruby

I know you are being a disingenuous thick fucking twat but for what its worth:

‘Firstly it takes a small group to start showing the way. This involves building up a picture of the world as it is, without apologies, and without caring if this truth is rejected at first. What counts is that we are trying to be as objective as possible.

Examples: effectively challenging the covid narrative, showing the historical roots of the policies being forced on us as well as the false narratives that seek to essentially castrate nationalist spirit, how the real economy works and with all that calling out the politicians and showing people what they will do before they do it. This will put us in a position of being looked at as a guide to the Scots who more and more will be forced to face harsh realities.’

Geoff Anderson

Ruby @8:41

Yes

I just skip past their rants now. Zero loss in doing so

Scot Finlayson

@lumilumi,

` At least Westminster is being more restrained and seen to protect women’s rights.`

i think this has more to do with the `left/centre` obsession with virtue signalling,

this is why the transcult can manipulate left/centre governments like Canada,New Zealand,Scotland most of the Nordic countries and now Biden`s America,

the politically right don`t do virtue signalling or virtue anything or they would not be to the right politically,

Westminster havn`t been captured by the transcult `cause they really don`t give a f@ck,

unless they could make loads of cash out of the trans dabate and then they might become more interested.

“The best revenge is to be unlike him who performed the injury.”
? Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

J.o.e

@Geoff Anderson

So apart from discussing who to vote for every few years, do you have any ideas on how to strengthen Scottish nationalism?

James Barr Gardner

Coincidence or is it the same £50 million ?

link to snp.org

link to bigissue.com

Republicofscotland

England’s PM was so desperate to secure a shitty trade deal with Australia, that the two questions that the UK envoys had on climate change for the Aussies, were dropped like hot potatoes in the event that they scuppered the rotten deal.

Meanwhile CND has warned the SNP government not to ley Scotland get stuck with Trident after independence. CND wants to see a maximum of five years for England to get its act together and remove Trident post Scottish independence.

Republicofscotland

An Aberdeen Christmas pantomime is standing by “comedian” Jane Godley on booking her to star in their shows, Godley admitted sending inappropriate tweets about disabled people and Chernobyl historically.

I personally find Godley as funny as a migraine at a heavy metal concert, and she seem like Susan Calman to never be off what passes for Scottish tv these days. I’m pretty sure Godley has also been a unofficial spokesperson for the SNP, and she’s pally with Sturgeon, never a good sign.

Republicofscotland

So we had the royal parasites Charles and Camilla creeping about Glasgow’s West End recently, now his brother Andy is in hiding with the head of the parasites the Queen at Balmoral.

Andy’s not there by choice he’s keeping his head down because a US lawsuit by Virginia Giuffre/Roberts, lawyers is looking to serve him papers on the lawsuit. The law firm has until the 8th of December to serve Andy, or the action could be dismissed, no doubt sleazy Andy feels safer at Balmoral behind the big iron gates and mummy on hand to protect his arse.

Why an independent Scotland would want to retain these low lifes is beyond me.

Breeks

twathater says:
9 September, 2021 at 3:45 am

…Those proud Scots BUT are a big part of the reason we are in the shit state we are now

Those self serving creepy arseholes done everything in their power to HIDE the enormous wealth that was available to Scotland and its people.

They are a queer brand of people right enough, and while I don’t understand them, I have to try. If I get my way, Scotland will be resurrected as an Independent Sovereign State, not necessarily as the settled will of an ephemeral electorate, but because Independence is Scotland’s rightful status in law, where the Union is an affront to that rightful status.

Thus I risk the wrath of all democrats, both those for and those against the Union, because I’m a Constitutionalist first, and a democrat second, and that’s a place far outside the comfort zone of most politicians… But personally, I like the views.

“IF” Scotland is sincere in wanting a Union with England, (no laughing at the back there!), then put aside the shameful twisted sophistry of the discredited 1707 Union which so compromises Scotland’s advancement, and set about bargaining for a modern 21st Century Union which at minimum is lawful and respects the dissimilar and irreconcilable Constitutions of Scotland and England the way EU respects the individual sovereignty of it’s members. Why not? If you want the Union, make the case for having it.

Why not go further? If the United Kingdom Union is such a boon to all component parties, if I was an ardent Unionist and proud of the Union, I feel confident enough to have it exist by annual subscription, a Union renewed every year and safely so by it’s universal popularity. Have it stand or fall by merit.

But you won’t will you? You barely had the courage to submit the Union to one Referendum in over 300 years, and now tremble in terror at the mere prospect of a second. Hardly a vote of confidence in your Union eh?

Did you ever stop to consider that maybe we have more faith in the Union than you do? We Independentists can at least acknowledge the Treaty is a fraud and a long-standing bogus injustice. You Unionists won’t even dare to look, because deep down, you know it’s your beliefs, and your beliefs alone which would crumble to dust.

Liz g

Nail on th head Breeks @ 10.19

James Che.

Andy Ellis,

Sorry I couldn’t get back to you’re response sooner,

To quote you,

What happen 300 years ago is not germaine to today,

There is nothing more relatable today than what happen to the Scottish people 300 years ago,

Scottish people are seeking independence of their country for a number of years due to what happened 300 years ago, and you are supposedly one of them. You even joined alba to do this.

You still have not answered my question, were Scottish people sold as a job lot with their country in 1707 under the terms of the treaty of the union.

stuart mctavish

@pixywine

From the tone of your posts I’d imagine you were only seduced/coerced into taking the injection(s) on advice of your GP (and even then possibly only after a second opinion from a higher authority). And that is perfectly fine_ but did you know that whilst up to 8 out of 10 covid deaths in uk this year may have been so called double vaccinated, public information announcements in France are currently stating the opposite about such deaths here (following a delayed roll out replete with nominally mandatoryuptake)
ie the criminal negligence of distorting the known performance of the various packages on offer is compounded by tacit admission to the gross negligence that the product actually being forced upon its citizens does not work as advertised in any event!

Fingers crossed Holyrood doesn’t follow in their bootsteps later today

Sensible Dave

Andy Ellis 7.33

You wrote “You’re wrong. We do have (multiple) mandates where the Scottish public voted for pro-indy parties who specifically said they were standing on the platform of holding another indyref.

Even worse from your point of view, polling – including one commissioned by this site – consistently shows that an overwhelming majority of Scots think it should be entirely a matter for Holyrood when and how often we hold referendums. That must mean a significant number of unionist voters believe this.”

You appear to determined to win an argument with me – whilst losing the war.

I see no actual evidence that a majority of voters in Scotland want Independence – because there isn’t any.

Surely you agree that such a decision has to be on the basis of a majority vote?

So rather than trying to play with words or talking about majorities in parliament, I would have thought that the main objective would be to build the majority – then have indyref2.

If you go off half-cocked, you will lose indyref2 – and, in my view, that really would be it for a generation.

James Che.

Breeks.

Thumbs up.

Andy Ellis

@ Ruby 8.41 am

Subject: are neo-nazi Joe and pixywino all talk and no action?

Answer: almost certainly yes. Of course like so many of the hard of thinking their contributions are never complete without a leavening of vile abuse, that’s just the MO of people who like to see themselves as edgy and the bearers of truths not available to the rest of us, whether in relation to Covid, climate change, immigration or any other policy hobby horse they have.

As you see from pixywino’s contributions they appear to be written in her cups. There is little point interacting with such trolls.

In Joe’s case, once you get past the abuse you have a number of “tells” about the agenda backing up his statements:

1) international finance cartel conspiracist. References to the Zionists controlling it, or Soros or the Rothschilds can’t be far behind.

2) use of “wedge issues” to enlighten the lumpen proletariat about the dangers of the current socio-economic system and those who control it. In Joe’s “long read” above it’s Covid and anti vaccine conspiracism, with a side order of big pharma being in on the global finance cartel.

3) advocation of home education, rejection of much of modern life / social model in favour of localism, ruralism, exclusion of “non-natives”. Blood and soil by any other name.

4) reaching out to other nationalist movements around the world and becoming more militant: don’t expect cosy get togethers with like minded civic nationalists though Ruby, they’ll be cosying up with Jobbik in Hungary, Law and Justice in Poland, Le Pen in France and Erdogan in Turkey.

5) repeated references to the role of the small group of true believers bringing the masses over to policies which are good for the collective. A common theme of authoritarian politics of both the left and the right.

Dan

Sensible Dave says: at 11:19 am

I see no actual evidence that a majority of voters in Scotland want Independence – because there isn’t any.

Maybe this will help…

link to wingsoverscotland.com

The mandate was to hold an Indyref which would then be the actual poll that matters on whether Scotland should return to being a self-governing country.
If you have so much faith in polls run by polling companies being accurate (they are often not…) then why bother holding official elections at all, just phone round a select few thousand folk on a database you control with polling questions formulated in a specific way to obtain the result you want, and that’ll suffice for democracy and save a whole lot of dosh.

Andy Ellis

@Sensible Dave

Try to interact with what people actually write, not what you wrongly infer and we’ll all get on a lot faster, huh?

Of course I accept we need a majority and that polling evidence since 2014 has only placed Yes ahead for limited periods. I see you are however disinclined to address the issue that polling evidence clearly shows super majorities in favour of Holyrood having the power to call referendums, not Westminster. It sounds very much like you’re indulging in cake having and eating?

Referendums are of course only one route to independence. If that is frustrated then plebiscitary elections are equally valid, and would be predicated on 50% + 1 voting Yes in response to a clearly plebiscitary mandate being sought. No true democrat could or should oppose that.

Similarly nobody who really believes that Westminster has no selfish interest in denying self determination to Scotland should the majority want it should be arguing that British nationalists should have a veto on the holding of a referendum which enjoys a clear mandate from a Scottish government elected with that policy as part of their platform.

None of that is in any way exceptional, yet you appear to be arguing that we’re not allowed a referendum unless the polls show it enjoys majority support. We don’t govern with reference to opinion polls.

Stuart MacKay

Oh dear, Jeggit thought he was championing the cause of the progressives and gender identity when he published his series excoriating Marion Millar and #womenwontwheest.

Instead, for his troubles, he got cancelled, link to randompublicjournal.com

The problem is, with his reputation in tatters with either side of the divide, what’s he going to do now?

Ah, well, live by the sword, die by the sword.

John Main

Andy Ellis

It is widely recognised that “New Scots”, by and large, don’t support Scottish Independence.

It follows logically from that, that immigration into Scotland damages the Scottish Independence cause. At the very least, for every incomer, one of the 80% native-born Scots you like to talk about has to switch from No to Yes, just to keep the losing Yes vote margin at a constant value.

By all means support your “all are welcome, celebrate diversity and multi-culturism” beliefs Andy. But don’t pretend they can rationally co-exist with belief in an Independent future for Scotland.

Who was it said “Politics is the art of the possible”? At some point, all rationalists have to put aside their airy-fairy virtue-signalling “wouldn’t it be nice” pipe dreams and get engaged with reality.

The denial of irrefutable logic is moon howling writ large.

Dan

Andy Ellis says:
9 September, 2021 at 11:38 am

Of course like so many of the hard of thinking their contributions are never complete without a leavening of vile abuse, that’s just the MO of people who like to see themselves as edgy and the bearers of truths not available to the rest of us…

Pfft! Fuck’s sake Andy, that’s some Wishartesque comedy gold coming from yersel when you consistently, persistently, and incorrectly label some folk in a derogatory and abusive manner.
And just who is this “us” and “we” you are somehow the spokesperson for?
Can folk apply to be included in the “us” and “we” collective? Is there a vetting process before I’d be allowed in? Is there a membership fee?

Andy Ellis

@James Che 10.37 am

Your question is nonsensical. It doesn’t even merit an answer, still less badgering me to address whatever point you’re trying and failing to make with it.

What happened in 1707 is no more important to actually achieving independence for Scotland now than the Partition of Poland was important to the restoration of a Polish state. I just don’t share your obsessive interest.

The 150 or so states that have achieved independence since 1945 didn’t do so because of things that happened 300 years ago. History can be interesting and can inform current thinking, but it’s background colour not tablets of stone. None of the recently independent states in Europe needed to hark back to the 18th century to stiffen the resolve of their people to assert and take what is theirs by right.

Ron Maclean

‘What If?’ by Scott Egner on yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com

James Che.

There’s No evidence that the majority of voters in Scotland want independence.

Well plenty of the majority of scottish people have given the Wicked Witch umpteen mandates to go forward with independence,

Or are the mandates from voters not counted as valid statistics?

Andy Ellis

@Dan 11.55 am

If you can’t discern the difference between my contributions and the expletive ridden rants posted by some of the folk on here, I can’t really help you. I’d just file you under being part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Of course I’m posting my own views. Only someone being deliberately obtuse would try and characterise it as otherwise. It’s hardly exceptional to point out that the majority of Scots and at least from what I can see the independence movement do not share the views being espoused by folk like Joe, pixywino and others.

You are free to disagree with me of course, but you can’t honestly be trying to say that climate change denial, being anti vaccine and/or being an ethno nationalist are in the mainstream or supported by the majority?

Doubtless you and I might agree on quite a few policy areas Dan, but there will be others where you take what I view as the “wrong” side. If there are opposing sides, it’s pretty inevitable there will be an “us” and a “them”. What’s your point?

Stuart MacKay

Regardless of which side of the issue you sit on, a newly independent Scotland is the worst of both worlds for immigrants and would-be emigrants. They lose access to England and the opportunities that might afford and they’ve already lost access to the EU which is going to take a good few years to get back.

Turkeys won’t vote for Christmas, not matter how inclusive it is presented as being.

10 years of solid growth, increasing opportunities and excellent prospects for the young would permanently solve the “immigrant problem”. It’s just a pity there’s nobody in power that could deliver that in our lifetimes.

Sensible Dave

Andy Ellis

You wrote “Referendums are of course only one route to independence. If that is frustrated then plebiscitary elections are equally valid, and would be predicated on 50% + 1 voting Yes in response to a clearly plebiscitary mandate being sought. No true democrat could or should oppose that.”

I understand the point you are making.

I’m not sure that you understand mine.

You appear believe you would win a pelebiscitary election. I don’t.

To be clear, that is not because I have a view on Scottish Independence, it is because, as an outsider, I do not see the evidence that a pre-agreed (by all parties) plebiscitary election can produce a majority for the Yessers. I refer back to my comments about indyref1 and the Rev’s graph (not mine) showing the results of the opinion polls.

Declaring a plebiscitary election is also fraught with danger for the indie campaign.

1. If a plebiscitary election was called and all parties agreed that it is (unlikely) then Project Feat 2 will start and, from where I am sitting, PF2 would blitz the independence argument at this time. There are still no set policy statements on any of the major issues (currency, economy, deficit, debt, tax collection, oil, etc, etc). And the subject of the EU has changed too now. It would take 10 years at least for Scotland to gain entry to the EU. Meanwhile, it would be out of the Union and outside of the EU. At the same time the “front person” of the Yes campaign’s “star” is also waning – even lots of Yessers don’t like her.

If you get a plebiscitary election and lose it? What next?

2. It is more likely that that the No camp would refuse to accept the basis of a plebiscitary election. They will tell No voters not to vote. Any result would then be unreliable/disputed and certainly not a mandate for the change you seek.

As per my previous comments, once it can be shown/becomes clear that there is a popular movement by a majority of voters that want Independence, then a referendum is irresistible.

J.o.e

@Andy Ellis @11:38am

That was quite an abusive post. Riddled with a bit of real slander and deliberate misinterpretation of what I have said.

Why is it the loudest progressives always turn out to be utterly odious individuals?

J.o.e

‘reaching out to other nationalist movements around the world and becoming more militant’

That last bit about becoming more militant is not something an honest reader can take from my post.

It is slander and deliberate misinterpretation by a disgusting individual.

Ruby

J.o.e says:
9 September, 2021 at 9:22 am
@Ruby

I know you are being a disingenuous thick fucking twat but for what its worth:

‘Firstly it takes a small group to start showing the way. This involves building up a picture of the world as it is, without apologies, and without caring if this truth is rejected at first. What counts is that we are trying to be as objective as possible.

Reply

Where, when & how is this small group doing all this?

James Che.

Of corse deal with the question by doing some hard thinking instead of using vile abuse at me,
But hey! That’s you’re MO whereby you like to see yourself as edgy but actually obfuscate a rather simple question,

It’s only nonsense so all to to you’re own opinion,
But not perhaps to most of the Scottish people,

As to badgering you, did you know it is supposed to be the highest form of a compliment when someone copies you.

Andy Ellis

@Sensible Dave 12.34 pm

Oh, I do understand it, I just don’t think it’s valid. Of course there are no guarantees a plebiscitary election can be won. So what? We’ll never know until we try. Similarly we’ll never know if we can win #indyref2 unless it is called and we have a campaign for it. That’s just politics: there are no sure things.

1. Plebiscitary elections don’t depend on all the parties agreeing. What matters is that pro independence parties (or even indy sceptic parties who accept that the Scots voters get to decide, not Westminster) make it plain that they are standing for election on an explicit platform that if they gain a majority of the votes cast it will be taken as a de facto Declaration of Independence. Unless the turnout was freakishly low – which appears unlikely IMO – then it’d be game over for the union. The rest of your point is just a rehash of Project Fear 2014. It wasn’t true then, and it’s even less true now post brexit.

2. Britnats are less likely to boycott a general election than a contested referendum. If plebiscitary elections are being held in response to a Westminster vetoed referendum it is relatively easy to make the case to the international community that we tried the other available options, including the precedent used in 2014, but British nationalists intransigence forced us to change our route to indy. Unless turnout was lower than 50%, the international community will not see a boycott by Scottish unionists as that persuasive.

You’re putting the cart before the horse. If a party gets elected on a platform of holding a referendum or on an explicitly plebiscitary platform and wins a majority then it would be a democratic outrage for that result not to be expected. We don’t run out democratic system in the basis that you’re not allowed to do things unless you can show before hand that it enjoyed majority support. This isn’t Periclean Athens where we all gather on the Pnyx and exercise direct democracy.

What you are advocating is a denial of democracy.

J.o.e

@Ruby

Im not interested in bandying posts back and forth with you. You are about the last person I would want to waste any time in discussing anything.

robbo

Sensible Dave says:
9 September, 2021 at 12:34 pm

If you get a plebiscitary election and lose it? What next?

————–

We send in our weapons of mass destruction to WM .We send in the midges. Surrender in an hour.

Ruby

Andy Ellis says:
9 September, 2021 at 11:38 am
@ Ruby 8.41 am

Subject: are neo-nazi Joe and pixywino all talk and no action?

Answer: almost certainly yes

Reply

Well done for include the subject matter. 🙂

It’s a great idea.
Now I know whether or not I will be interested in your post or if I will just SQP.

Dan

@ Andy Ellis at 12.14pm

The point I was making is that you negatively impact the worth of your own contributions with your attempts to call folk out for being abusive, when you are equally guilty of chucking abuse at folk.

You pretty much always bullishly and with zero nuance resort to categorising folk into the negative polar extremes on any particular matter. Even when some of those folk are just trying to have a discussion with input from others on particular subjects.
If those discussions were actually allowed to be had rather than effectively shutdown by the domineering imposition from certain folk, then the input from a range of views may help inform folk to the point they can decide for themselves where they position themselves in relation to the matters being discussed.

Many will agree btl is not currently what it used to be.
After all the years of hard graft Stu put in to build the Wings platform, now that he is taking a break, the least we could do is make the effort to try and maintain and sustain a decent level of btl discourse on a range of subject matters which would give some value for the folk that still comment on or read the site.

EG. What do folk make of the recent dropping of plans for the National Energy Company by ScotGov?

Also, here’s a link Robin McAlpine’s new blog site.

link to robinmcalpine.org

Ruby

Dan says:
9 September, 2021 at 1:17 pm
@ Andy Ellis at 12.14pm

The point I was making is that you negatively impact the worth of your own contributions with your attempts to call folk out for being abusive, when you are equally guilty of chucking abuse at folk.

Reply

I agree with that. He hasn’t reached the same level as J.O.E by calling my a ‘disingenuous thick fucking twat’ but I have had my fair share of abuse from Andy E.

I think there is hope for him. He just needs a few nudges in the right direction.

I would like to convince him just sometimes to ‘let things go’ just to ignore J.O.E & Sensible Dave and not end up having a long draw up pissing contest with either of those two.

Scot Finlayson

@Stuart MacKay,

`Oh dear, Jeggit thought he was championing the cause of the progressives and gender identity when he published his series excoriating Marion Millar and #womenwontwheest.

Instead, for his troubles, he got cancelled, link to randompublicjournal.com`

this is what what happens when two vitue signallers collide

Scot Finlayson

`Others` up to 6% from 2% in newest opinion poll,

i wonder if that is Alba.

sarah

@ Dan “after all the years of hard graft Stu put in…”

Not to mention the mental torture of the Met Police seizing his computers etc and Kezia Dugdale slandering and libelling him.

People btl really should take a good hard look at what they write before submitting it. Ask themselves “Is this up to Stu’s standards? Is it helping the noble cause of truth, justice and restoring Scotland’s independence?”

Ruby

J.o.e says:
9 September, 2021 at 1:04 pm
@Ruby

Im not interested in bandying posts back and forth with you. You are about the last person I would want to waste any time in discussing anything.

Reply

I just asked a simple question. You could have answered it in less time than it took you to type the above.

Well OK if you don’t want to answer my question then I’ll make a guess as to where, when & how your small group is doing all the things you outlined in your post.

Sensible Dave

Andy 1.01

.. I’m not “denying” anything Andy.

I am positively in favour of persuading a majority of voters in Scotland of the benefits of Independence – as being the route to achieving it.

Your preferred options seem to be that to hold a vote of some sort is the goal. All well and good, but holding it and then losing it? what use is that – other than for the proposition to be shelved for a generation.

As an aside, you suggest that the questions I raised have been asked and answered previously. So it will be easy for you to answer these questions:

1. What currency will Scotland use after Independence?
2. Who will set monetary policy and interest rates in SCotland?
3. What will Scotland’s national debt be.
4. How big will Scotland’s deficit be?
5. How is Scotland going to balance its finances? More taxes?
6. Will SCotland want to join the EU?
7. How long will that take?
8. Whilst outside the EU what trade deals will it have.
9. Will there be a physical border with England
10. Will oil production remain a key part of SCotland’s Green economy?

… etc, etc

Imagine you are on the telly – and answer those questions quickly and succinctly.

Ruby

One thing I have to say about ‘Sinister Dave’ is that he gets tops marks for ‘flame-baiting’

Andy Ellis

@Dan 1.17 pm

Me calling moon howlers out for their woo woo beliefs is not abuse mate. The fact that you appear utterly unable to discern the difference between me disagreeing with sundry anti vaxxers, climate change deniers, neo nazis and ethno nationalists, and the input of potty mouthed roasters like Joe, pixywino and their ilk tells me everything I need or want to know about you and your motivations. You’re just too much like hard work.

You can’t reason with these folk. You can point and laugh and/or you can respond in detail in an attempt to show others who might be reading how misguided you think they are. In the end it’s attitudes like yours (which amount to “look they might be a foul mouthed unreasoning troll, but let’s hear them out and have a respectful debate”) that have contributed to BTL here becoming a proper zoo for fringe nutters. I’m not averse to biting back if people throw abuse about, but unlike some it’s not my initial recourse.

The false equation of disagreement (however trenchant) with abuse is of course a tactic we knew well from indyref1, and we despised Better Together and the britnats who used it. It’s sad to see our own side using it here of all places. I’m done arguing the toss with you Dan: you’re a lost cause.

Sensible Dave

Hey Rubes

Are you going to answer my questions for me?

Derek

robbo says:
9 September, 2021 at 1:16 pm

We send in the midges. Surrender in an hour.

There’d be wailing and gnashing of teeth – and accusations of biological warfare…!

Ron Maclean

Bullying, boorish behaviour has long been a feature of this site btl. Has it ever solved anything?

Andy Ellis

@ Sensible Dave 1.46pm

Neither you nor anyone else gets to place random timescales on when or how often Scots vote. In the end it’s our decision. If there was the support to do it annually that’s what should happen. That’s democracy.

As for your Project Fear playbook talking points:

1) Out own currency, just like lots of other newly independent countries managed. Or do you propose Scotland is uniquely incapable?
2) Our own central bank. Same rationale and question as for 1.
3) Depends on the circumstances and negotiations with britnats. Zero if Westminster is unreasonable, or an agreed share of UK debt.
4) Unknowable. Depends on 3 above and what the taxing and spending priorities of the first Scottish government is. See also answer to 1 above.
5) The same as other countries. We’re not unique. We’ll have a deficit, so what? Every other country possibly apart from Norway does. See answer in point 1 above.
6) Maybe. Scots will decide post indy. I’d personally prefer not to, but odds are the majority will say yes. There is no queue before you start on that, nor would we ever have to adopt the Euro in practice even it’s supposed to be a requirement (see also Sweden).
7) Finland did it from ground zero with no previous history in 24 months. Scotland is hardly likely to be more.
8) Who knows. Do you honestly think it’d be that much worse than Global Britain helmed by one of the most comically inept governments in centuries?
9) Yes. Oil can still be used for things other than fuelling transport. Whatever the knit your own yoghurt pot types think, we’re not ready for Green nirvana yet.

None of this is rocket science. It’s no different now than it was in 2014. The difference now post brexit is that the britnat Project Fear claims to economic competence have been holed below the water line. The cost/benefit analysis then went in favour of the No camp for the majority. That calculation isn’t likely to be the same for indyref2 or before plebiscitary elections in the next few years.

Andy Ellis

@ Dave 1.46 pm

Apologies for missing your # 9

9) If necessary, yes. (See also Northern Ireland and sauce for geese). 🙂

James Che.

I was reading a piece by Hamish MacPherson
The National,
27th September 2020.

Apparently I am not the only one going back 300 years and questioning the validity and origins of the treaty of the union.

I extended the question to ask were the Scottish people sold in the corrupt fixed deal,
did they become bought slaves?
Did they remain free?
Are they still bought slaves.
Or are the still free men, women and children,

AND OF CORSE SCOTTISH PEOPLE WOULD WANT TO KNOW IF THEY ARE STILL BOUGHT SLAVES AS A NATION.

James Che.

If we were bought slaves,
It is now illegal.
What right has a government to buy a country and its people 300 years ago and expect those Scottish people to remain slaves in 2021 to 1707 contractual agreement.

Or do Scottish people consider it is a nonsense question as to their present day status of ownership?

Andy Ellis

@ James Che 3.15 pm

“Or do Scottish people consider it is a nonsense question as to their present day status of ownership?”

Not just Scottish people James, any reasonable person thinks it’s a nonsense question.

Happy to help!

J.o.e

@Andy Ellis

Still no reply as to your lies about what I posted?

Republicofscotland

Sensible Dave @1.46pm.

As if every country that’s become independent answered those questions before becoming independent, I think not.

Scotland the Brief clearly shows that Scotland is wealthy enough, and better off without this rancid union, all other aspects are for the people of Scotland to decide among themselves.

The real poser is how will England get by without its cash cow Scotland, now that its up to its eyes in debt, and has had its triple AA credit rating downgraded to Aa2, the third highest, Moodies downgraded the UK in 2013.

link to businessforscotland.com.

Republicofscotland

Who is the numpty that keeps prattling on about polls and the will of the Scottish people is it Senseless Dave.

Oh look Yes is in the lead in the latest poll.

link to archive.is

Andy Ellis

@J.o.e 3.28 pm

Honest opinion based on evidence can’t be considered as lies Joe.

No reasonable person on the Clapham (or any other) omnibus could read your output on this and other threads here and feel it wasn’t fair comment.

Republicofscotland

Re my 10.06am comment on Jane Godley’s vile historic tweets, it would appear that Godley has more nefarious comments under her belt, according to this, Godley is a racist, she has issued a second apology.

link to archive.is

link to archive.is

Will Sturgeon race to her good pals defence, or will she dropped her quicker than she dropped Margaret Ferrier, or will she turn a blind eye to Godley, as she did to her party’s Joanna Cherry and Joan McAlpine, who were abused and threatened by online, by some of the SNP membership and hierarchy.

J.o.e

@Andy Ellis

…and anybody who has seen how paedophiles communicate online could come to no other conclusion than you are likely to be one of those who likes small boys.

Unless of course we go by what you have actually written and conclude that this is a preposterous assertion?

The fact is my post didn’t say anything like what you claimed it did. That makes it lies.

Have you anything else to explain that except for your last nonsense? In which case I will freely conclude anything I want about what you say, regardless of whether you said anything to suggest it.

Sensible Dave

Andy Ellis

… this is hard work! I am not arguing against Scottish independence! Have you got that?

I am saying that all the previous answers were not good enough to convince the majority – because the majority didn’t vote Yes. Agreed?

Is the situation better or worse now? Easier or harder?

Objectively, I would suggest that the “floating voters” haven’t seen anything in the last 2 years that is a compelling argument for changing from their previous position – to voting Yes. Other than, perhaps, the outcome of the Brexit vote as far as SCotland is concerned. But Scotland is now out of the EU and being out of the Union at the same time, I would suggest, hinders rather than helps.

Clearly you want to “bet the farm” on the belief that they have. That’s a very big call to get wrong Andy.

With respect to comment by someone that Scots can decide every year to hold a referendum if they want – that is of course true.

What is actually meant though is that those representing the minority can attempt to impose its will on the majority every year – if the minority has created the means to be able to do so (i.e. achieved a majority in parliament).

Clearly that is your plan. I personally don’t think it will work.

sarah

FAO Margaret Eleftheriou re your books for Craig Murray: I have emailed Craig today with details of the 5 books that I hope are the ones you sent! Peasants, Troy, Wonderful Life, Moneyless, and the Rob Boddice?

I asked him to let me know idc if he has been informed by the library of their arrival. I also asked about the trilogy I sent.

Re asking Keith Brown to release Craig on compassionate health grounds, I hope that many here btl have emailed him at cabsecjustice@gov.scot. Let’s make him a bit uncomfortable. 🙂

Robert Graham

o/t

Sorry to interrupt the fascinating discussions on a Indyref2 that is now because of Sturgeon so deeply buried under all the shite and promises from her version of the SNP that finding it would take all the Archaeologists on the planet to find it , it’s fkn dead while she is in place .

On a lighter note does anyone know when this Vax Pass vote is taking place ? or indeed has it already taken place because the announcements from herr Fuhrer Sturgeon she seems to think it’s going to be in place sometime during Qctober the First I believe was mentioned.

The greens will swallow their principles ( fk sake no laughing please ) yes the wee green man ? not quite sure about that bit , anyway I guess the wee Green Person will have a memory lapse and forgot he has been totally against any kind of Medical Apartheid and will probably bend over and assume his normal position , either that or on principle his wee circle will abstain .who knows .

Republicofscotland

Vaccine passports are to be introduced on the 1st of October for access to night clubs and large events.

Meanwhile SEPA finally gets it right, by not following England down the same path. England is to allow companies to dump sewage which has not been properly treated into its rivers and streams.

(SEPA) the Scottish Environmental Protection Agency has stated it will not allow this to happen in Scotland. Right SEPA, now that you are beginning to get the finger out, get onto the MoD and tell them to stop their bloody nuclear subs from polluting our lochs with radioactive waste.

Republicofscotland

“I am saying that all the previous answers were not good enough to convince the majority – because the majority didn’t vote Yes.”

Sensible Dave @4.31pm.

FFS Dave, the public were lied to by Better Together and it unionist media machine, here’s seventeen examples of those lies.

link to pressandjournal.co.uk

And I’ll tell you what, when a date is announced for the next indyref the b*stards will lie again, and the unionist media will back them up.

Ruby

Andy Ellis says:
9 September, 2021 at 2:37 pm
@ Sensible Dave 1.46pm

Neither you nor anyone else gets to place random timescales on when or how often Scots vote. In the end it’s our decision. If there was the support to do it annually that’s what should happen. That’s democracy.

Reply

Do you honestly think ‘Sinister Dave’ is interested in all that stuff or that he is going to read it?

Being that your post is addressed to ‘Sinister Dave’ nobody else will either.

You have wasted your time.

I’m wondering if your assessment of J.O.E. is correct. Could J.O.E. just be another Unionist troll here to cause trouble?

Ruby

‘A separate poll commissioned by the Scotland in Union campaign this week reported a very different result, with 57% of decided voters saying they vote No in Indyref2.’

That made me laugh!

Who does Pamela’s polls?

J.o.e

Im just gonig to say this – the only time a referendum on Scottish independence will be agreed upon is when they have all the pieces in place to get the result they want, and with sufficient means to basically nullify the result should it somehow go against them.

You will never again get a fair shot at a referendum. It will mot likely be a means to trap Scotland into a 2nd pro Union result and that result will be written in stone forever more.

At this point I think even agreeing to a referendum is a bad idea.

Sensible Dave

RoS 4.41

You wrote “FFS Dave, the public were lied to by Better Together and it unionist media machine, here’s seventeen examples of those lies.”

I’ll play devil’s advocate …..

Westminster: We delivered all aspects of the Vow – and more. The only people that say that we didn’t are the nasty blood and soil types – who would say that wouldn’t they.

Westminster: Many of the SNP’s arguments for a post- independence SCottish economy – we’re based upon unsustainable oil prices. We all know what happened. Oil prices slumped and Scotland has been supported, quite rightly, by the UK coffers to assist in their difficult economic times. People in the more prosperous south of England support additional public spending per head for people in Scotland. Its the right thing to do. We are better together.

etc, etc

… I knocked that up in about 5 mins!

Westminster: We have left the EU now. Why would Scots want to leave a successful Union that has lasted for 300 years – to be ruled by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. Why would they want to be forced to use the Euro, give up the fishing grounds again, pay billions in membership fees – and not have border free travel with ENgland?

Robert Graham

FFS wullie rennie talking sense

FFS get ma coat

This country has changed out of all recognition when men can say they are women just because that’s how they feel today ,

I wonder if the troops that fought in the Second World War if they were still alive would believe their sacrifice was worth it or just a fkn waste of time if this shite was the result , I just watched a SNP MSP who cited the waiting lists as a excuse for the Vax Pass without doubt either she was at the back of the line when brains were being given out or she wasn’t even in the fkn Queue .

Ruby

When all the implications of ‘self-id’ are known and a huge % of the electorate decide Nicola Sturgeon is completely nuts will the number of YES voters increase or decrease?

Could Nicola Sturgeon be sold as being part of the Union and voting YES would be the only way to get shot of her.

twathater

My goodness the union brigade are very busy today interacting with one another , or maybe they’re just talking to themselves

Robert Graham

That well known and respected Medical Expert Humza is now attempting to baffle MSPs firstly by quoting the latest version of the truth , now he is actually telling barefaced fkn lies to back up this Medical mumbo jumbo he quotes the science Aye who’s fkn Science pal ? no wonder MSPs are giving this fkn fraud a hard time.

Scot Finlayson

@Sensible Dave,

`oil prices slump`

that is why you have an oil fund,

it`s a system been used since prehistoric times,

save up your summer bounty for the hard winter,

how much in Scotland`s oil fund ya thievin c@nt.

Ruby

Robert Graham says:
9 September, 2021 at 5:16 pm
FFS wullie rennie talking sense

FFS get ma coat

This country has changed out of all recognition when men can say they are women just because that’s how they feel today ,

Reply

I’ve been asking around about self-id.

I get the impression people think the above is such a preposterous idea that it could never happen so they are not taking it seriously.

twathater

For the benefit of Andy Pandy and his pal Big Ears (sd) who doesn’t care about indy

SCOTS VOTED 53% FOR INDEPENDENCE SO THEY WERE CONVINCED

Republicofscotland

“Westminster: We delivered all aspects of the Vow – and more. The only people that say that we didn’t are the nasty blood and soil types – who would say that wouldn’t they.”

Sensible Dave @5.09pm

So I take you agree that the Better Together lied in 2014 prior to the referendum.

On the above.

Not according to this it hasn’t.

link to businessforscotland.com

Of course on top of this we have the syphoning off of powers which impinge on devolved areas, coming back from the EU, and Johnson saying that he’ll give funds directly to councils bypassing Holyrood in the process.

Nally Anders

Lorna Campbell absolutely nails it over on ‘It’s Shite Being Scottish’ blog. .
A terrifying picture but well reasoned argument as to where all the Gender Woo Woo will lead us.
link to duncanspence.blog

Republicofscotland

There’s nothing Scotland can’t do as an independent country, that England does just now except be a P5 member, of which we don’t need to be.

England is already an independent country, it makes its own trade deals, it has embassies around the globe, it meets with worldwide dignitaries, it controls its own monetary policies, it controls its own immigration and passports, it controls all the military forces, and much, much more.

England is in a union, but acts like an independent country. Scotland must act in a similar fashion, and dissolve this farce of a union for good.

Scott

Stuart MacKay says:
9 September, 2021 at 12:23 pm

Regardless of which side of the issue you sit on, a newly independent Scotland is the worst of both worlds for immigrants and would-be emigrants. They lose access to England

Sensible Dave says:
9 September, 2021 at 5:09 pm

Westminster: We have left the EU now. Why would Scots want to leave a successful Union that has lasted for 300 years – to be ruled by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. Why would they want to be forced to use the Euro, give up the fishing grounds again, pay billions in membership fees – and not have border free travel with ENgland?

The Common Travel Area still exists, even though Ireland is in EU.

There’s no reason for Scotland to be excluded going forward.

FWIW, the monarch isn’t going to allow ‘frosty relations’ between an independent Scotland and rUK.

Her Treasury will ensure that her Scotland has a fair share of the assets.

Current debt will still be held by WM.

Current pensions will still be payable by WM.

Nationalities won’t have to change.

Scotland has scope for massive amounts of investment in infrastructure.

Scotland has scope for a radical overhaul of food production, a subset of infrastructure.

Job and wealth creation in the early days of an independent Scotland…easy.

Republicofscotland

Update on Jane Godley, Sturgeon’s buddy, Godley has been axed from the SNP’s Scottish Covid campaign adverts, she’ll now not make people laugh for ten days.

Fred

“Fred do you honestly believe the clowns you mentioned have any feelings for their country or countrymen/women”

Twathater:
No. I was being facetious, and the question was more rhetorical than anything. I was just demonstrating that Alf’s crazy criteria for determining what qualifies a country as a colony could be used both ways – and hopefully put that nonsense to bed once and for all.

Yes. I 100% agree. Blairism, which Cameron through to Johnson have happily adopted, is just a less aggressive, but just as potent, extension of Thatcherism – one of the main factors as to why the fabric of whatever we had as a society has been irreparably destroyed.

Sensibledave

To those “upset” by the paragraphs I knocked up, I was imagining what might be said by Westminster in PF2.

Clearly, other than abuse and silly comments, you do not appear to much of a response to even the most basic levels of inquiry. To win, you will need to persuade,, convince, inspire the No voters. I’m not sure calling them c***s is quite going to do it!:-)

Dan

Andy Ellis says: at 2:06 pm

Me calling moon howlers out for their woo woo beliefs is not abuse mate. The fact that you appear utterly unable to discern the difference between me disagreeing with sundry anti vaxxers, climate change deniers, neo nazis and ethno nationalists, and the input of potty mouthed roasters like Joe, pixywino and their ilk tells me everything I need or want to know about you and your motivations.

The trouble with trying to justify your hardline attitude with shit like that ^^^ is that it falls down flat on its face because you consistently and relentlessly class anyone that holds a different opinion to yourself into your myriad derogatory groupings, when some of those alternative opinions are valid and in no way could be considered extreme.

The fact that I can discern and acknowledge differences in the spectrum of views put forward by different folk in what are attempts to discuss certain subjects is the very reason I call you out, because you seem unable to recognise this point, and you refuse to stop mis-classifying folk.
Ergo, you are being abusive to those people. This flawed modus of yours has been pointed out to you many times by numerous long term btl posters yet you just bulldoze on regardless.

My motivations are for btl discourse to be accurate and for bullshit to be called out when it occurs. So I’ll come back at you with questioning your motivations when you operate in quite such an aggressively antagonistic and disruptive way, which is far from conducive to engaging with reasonable folk in a positive manner.

J.o.e

Just a wee note to the guys who understand covid:

Been meeting with a group in my area for a wee while now who all understand what’s going on and been talking future outlook and sharing tips for trying to mitigate effects of social exclusion etc.

I would advise you do this if you aren’t already. If you can’t find a group then try and make one. Its very good for your morale

Something i’ve been coming to the conclusion on is that the people pushing this have crossed the Rubicon some time ago. They cannot afford for things to go back to normal and for facts to continue to come to light. For them the tyranny either succeeds in crushing us or they are finished. A significant chunk of the establishment are now literally in a fight for their lives. It is a dangerous time.

J.o.e

‘I wonder if the troops that fought in the Second World War if they were still alive would believe their sacrifice was worth it or just a fkn waste of time if this shite was the result’

The people they were fighting had already been dealing with the exact same shite.

Andy Ellis

@Sensible Dave 4.31 pm

1) “… this is hard work! I am not arguing against Scottish independence! Have you got that?”

You’re making heavy weather of it certainly: whether that’s because you don’t really understand or because you’re being disingenuous is difficult to judge. I’m not sure I believe your protestations, but even if they are true, you’re still regurgitating Project Fear agitprop which requires correction. I’m happy to help, because you obviously need it.

2) “I am saying that all the previous answers were not good enough to convince the majority – because the majority didn’t vote Yes. Agreed?”

Yes, actually. We needed better arguments. Our campaign was one dimensional and concentrated almost exclusively on happy-clappy positive campaigning to the exclusion of pointing out the obvious flaws and potential counter arguments that there were risks in staying in the union and opportunities in becoming independent. We failed to make a strong enough case. That’s hardly news.

3) “Is the situation better or worse now? Easier or harder?”

In some ways it is worse and harder, in other ways it may be better. Brexit *ought* to have been a game changer, but the SNP in particular – and the indy movement more generally – fluffed it and lost a golden opportunity. No country ever gained independence thinking there were no risks. Few such countries can ever have embarked on such a journey with Scotland’s advantages. If you (or Scottish unionists) honestly believe Scotland is somehow uniquely unable to achieve what countries which are objectively much poorer and less capable have achieved, there is nothing that will change your a priori assumptions.

4) “Objectively, I would suggest that the “floating voters” haven’t seen anything in the last 2 years that is a compelling argument for changing from their previous position – to voting Yes. Other than, perhaps, the outcome of the Brexit vote as far as SCotland is concerned. But Scotland is now out of the EU and being out of the Union at the same time, I would suggest, hinders rather than helps.”

Perhaps: but perhaps not. It’s very difficult to prove one way or the other. Now that we have been dragged out of the EU against the will of the majority of Scots, it may make the post independence approach different to what would have happened if we’d become independent in 2014 or immediately post brexit. Floating voters appear still to be floating, yes: but then that doesn’t necessarily prove your point. If it did presumably we’d be seeing sustained falls in support for independence and pro indy parties. We aren’t seeing that though, are we?

5) “Clearly you want to “bet the farm” on the belief that they have. That’s a very big call to get wrong Andy.”

So what? The inverse is just as true. I’d wager there are plenty of folk who now bitterly regret voting No in 2014. Plenty of EU citizens have left Scotland and the rest of the UK. Both sides have an element of being “faith based”, both have risks and opportunities.

6) “With respect to comment by someone that Scots can decide every year to hold a referendum if they want – that is of course true.
What is actually meant though is that those representing the minority can attempt to impose its will on the majority every year – if the minority has created the means to be able to do so (i.e. achieved a majority in parliament).
Clearly that is your plan. I personally don’t think it will work”

That’s simply wrong again. You appear to have difficulties accepting how democracy works. the implications of that are somewhat alarming. If a pro-indy party stands on a platform which includes a commitment to holding a referendum, or plebiscitary elections, voters either give them a mandate, or they don’t.

If they do, and they have the necessary majority in parliament, they get to enact their platform (unless it is somehow held to be illegal).

Democracies don’t insist on every decision requiring >50 support from the whole electorate or >50% of voters. Few post WW2 governments in the UK have ever achieved that.

Having annual referendums was an extreme example, but in the end you’re either a democrat who accepts that the majority decision should be respected by the losing minority, or you’re not. Democracy isn’t a pick and mix buffet where you get to abide by the things you like but ignore the things you don’t.

twathater

@ Fred 6.06pm (Alf’s crazy criteria), I disagree I think the situation we have at present is a perfect example of colonialism , the problem we have is that it has been reinforced over the past 300 years by people we believed had our best interests at heart and owed any allegiance or loyalty they had to Scotland, unfortunately we have all been duped by self serving self aggrandising arseholes of which the current lot are just a continuation, and that especially refers to the SNP contingent

Alf Baird

Fred @ 6:06 pm

“I was just demonstrating that Alf’s crazy criteria for determining what qualifies a country as a colony could be used both ways”

So you suggest that us Scots shuirly rin Britain wi oor 59 MP’s telling the ither 600 MPs whit tae dae; an us Scots hiv selt aff aw England’s assets tae oor Caymen Isle freens, richt eneuch; an us Scots hiv flooded intae England an noo mak up ower 20% o England’s population an Scots tak maist o thay’re heid bummer jobs tae; an us Scots hiv banned the English language in yer schuils an imposed oor ain braw Scots mither tung on aw yon English folk tae gie ye aw a Scottish – sorry, A mean British – identity. An us Scots hiv kep ye aw in thon EU agin yer will. An us Scots hiv refused ye a referendum ye votet fir on yer richt tae self-determination, aye we ken whit’s best fir ye. An us Scots aye tak ye tae war whan we like an aw.

No, I don’t think you can say that the colonial oppression leveled on Scots can be said to occur both ways. As Albert Memmi stated, there is “a bond between colonizer and colonized (where) one is disfigured into an oppressor, a partial, unpatriotic and treacherous being, worrying only about his privileges and their defense; (and) the other, into an oppressed creature, whose development is broken and who compromises by his defeat.” Only the latter side of that bond seeks independence, whilst the former seeks to deny it, which is what we see.

Republicofscotland

Scott @5.57pm.

Scott a sensible and realistic comment, maybe we should remove the Sensible from Sensible Dave and give it to you.

robbo

I thought Janey Godley was removed from Scot Gov corona ads/

She’s just been on telly 2 mins ago on STV .

Andy Ellis

@ Joe 4.17 pm

“Unless of course we go by what you have actually written and conclude that this is a preposterous assertion?

The fact is my post didn’t say anything like what you claimed it did. That makes it lies.”

We ARE going by what you’ve actually written though Joe, aren’t we? People are aware of you recommending a well known and widely discredited neo-nazi documentary series. Your own posts are replete with exactly the kind of things I referred to. People can make their judgements accordingly.

Robert Graham

Really glad that the important immediate stuff is being discussed on here ,

When every single country has had demonstrations and riots resisting this Vax Pass but not here just a fkn whimper and a vote by usless brainless fkn cowards in the SNP a party I will never again vote for in my life until this fkr Sturgeon is in prison along with her fake marriage of convenience partner

Headline on the BBC Aye Sturgeon first with the Vax pas , first with the GRA shite , first with having the only political prisoner convicted on a charge that some bought and paid for judge invented out of thin air , Sturgeon the failure as a lawyer yes dear you will be remembered and I bet your days doing walk abouts and getting selfies are well and truly over I wouldn’t spit on that fkr and as for the pink ladies on WGD fk me brains in their arses is this the kind of country you people want ? .

J.o.e

If you want a clear look at the kind of person Andy Ellis is, or the kind of agenda he pushes then simply look at the sheer dishonesty he has shown today.

This guy either has serious problems or is owned

Scott

Andy Ellis has TWO blogs of his own, yet here he is…using the most-read Scottish independence supporting site, to still not be taken seriously.

My guess is that every time that wee hunny in the advert says “..and we don’t take ourselves too seriously” – he scweams “I do, you **insert ad hominem**”

Meanwhile, at the bar…there’s a country to enrich.

J.o.e

@Robert Graham

Have to be honest Robert im pretty much exhausted with Covid. Ive spent months on here pointing things out from official sources and tackling the shills.

Ive also spent a lot of emotional energy on trying to show people in my real life the truth of things.

I am now at the point that if people can’t take the time to consider what they are doing then they fucking well deserve everything coming at them.

My efforts now go into the people who understand are on the same page.

One thing I can’t understand is the silence on this subject from people we would normally consider to be up in arms about basic civil rights abuses or corporate/government crime.

Andy Ellis

@Joe

I’m “owned”? Really? Who is it you think I might be owned by Joe? I mean..I’m not the one hiding behind an anonymous online persona am I? I’m sure if I was in the pay of some organisation it wouldn’t be that hard for folk to find out.

Like all other snivelling cowards who like to post abuse online you do so safe in the knowledge that you can stay safely under your bridge, throwing rocks at everyone else, and circulating your outlandish conspiracy theories.

Still, it’s good that you and your mates have the Covid equivalent of the Tooting Popular Front to keep you occupied for the coming apocalypse! You’d be alarming if you weren’t so hilarious. 🙂

Andy Ellis

I see Janey Godley is the gift that just keeps giving!

“So Janey Godley was active in the Scottish Conservative party in the wake of the miners’ strike.

Now that is funny – comedy gold, in fact!”

link to action4equalityscotland.blogspot.com

J.o.e

@Andy Ellis

I’ll take your word for it. Problems it is then.

Andy Ellis

@Joe 7.40pm

Only problem I’ve got right now is playing moon howler whack a mole with a handful of no marks on here Joe.

It’s like shooting fish in a barrel.

Republicofscotland

“HOLYROOD is changing its legal status to make it easier for the police to remove protesters.”

“Scottish Parliament bosses have asked the Home Office to designate the building and its grounds as a “protected site” in the interests of national security.”

“Legislation has now been laid in Westminster under the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 which is due to come into force on October 1.”

“From next month it will be a criminal offence to remain on the parliamentary estate “without lawful authority” punishable by a £5000 fine or a year in jail after a conviction.”

So it looks like Scotland is becoming a wee authoritarian country, we won’t even be able to protest outside Holyrood when Sturgeon and her clique screws us over yet again on Scottish independence.

We won’t even be able to protest again SNP government policies outside Holyrood. Women will not be able to protest outside Holyrood when their rights are badly eroded by this government in favour of those of a small minority.

They have no right to do this, they are suppressing our rights to freedom of protest. Sturgeon is tightening her grip on Scotland I wouldn’t advise anyone to move to Scotland, its becoming authoritarian.

link to archive.is

Captain Yossarian

Has anyone asked yet why Lorna Slater and Patrick Harvie have been made Ministers? Hardly anyone has heard of them and hardly anyone voted for them. Experience has been that if Swinney glowers at Harvie he breaks into a dance anyway and so why give him a Ministerial car when the handful of worthwhile folk we have at Holyrood just get the bus to work?

stuart mctavish

Shameful vote on vaccine passports which FM did not even debate/ attend (despite appearing to have voted), and not a single defection to Alba/ against :(.

Only despicable out I can now imagine is if they push through their self ID bollocks and render all the vaccist paperwork obsolete in any event but either way imediate future looks like being as shite to be Scottish as vice versa.

Credit to Willie Rennie (against in any circumstance) and Murdo Fraser (for, but not in any circumstance) for all that.

Ian Spruce

Republicofscotland says:
9 September, 2021 at 7:53 pm
“HOLYROOD is changing its legal status to make it easier for the police to remove protesters.

And it has now been signed into law!

link to twitter.com

J.o.e

I see people are still going on about the vaccine passport conspiracy theory.

Moon howlers.

willie

NDLS is the new CBB.

Time the Rev GHTF. He’s DMFHI.

Captain Yossarian

@willie – The first comment I ever read on WoS, back in January/February was by your good-self and it was excellent. Forgive me, but what are you talking about? You’re a proud Nationalist who usually talks perfect sense and I hardly ever disagree, but you’ve lost me with this one.

J.o.e

link to blogs.timesofisrael.com

‘The establishment Jewish groups in the US, all of whom lock arms for Israel and lobby the American government to categorically support her at every turn, are the same groups that consistently call for open borders in Europe, increased immigration from the Middle East, a full-out embracing of multiculturalism, a weakened national culture, and a diminished Church. They are the same groups that slander and defame leaders like Le Pen in France and Wilders in the Netherlands. They are the same groups that push for the death of Europe and her people.’

J.o.e

‘The peculiar position of these Jews is not so much in their exclusive nationalist desires for one state. It is in their exclusive denial of such nationalist rights to the peoples of Europe. For some strange reason, there is a hate for the European race, and that hate translates into a desire for its ultimate destruction. After all, what better way to crumble Europe than to replace its volk?’

J.o.e

‘ The displacement of a people is no small exploit, especially a people that has played such a critical role in human history in the creation of Western civilization. With Europeans’ dwindling birthrates, the necessity to preserve the national identity of the European peoples becomes ever more important. ‘

Scot Finlayson

SNP/Green Government at the Transcult Reichstag have banned protests.

This stinks of the transcult that seeps into every decision at the Reichstag.

Andy Ellis

@Capt Yossarian 9.13 pm

Interesting isn’t it? I answer posts and get accused of over-posting and being like CBB, of being abusive for having the temerity to disagree with folk and pointing out that being against vaccination, a climate change denier or an ethno nationalist is not mainstream and very much a minority POV.

Then along comes Joe, proving my point with not 1 but 3 posts devoted to “Jewish establishment groups” behind multiculturalism, weakening national cultures, and ….wait for it…defaming fine upstanding progressives like Le Pen and Wilders.

No…really.

Can you see it yet readers?

How many steps is it from “we wuz robbed in 2014 by furriners” to Alf Bairds “Scotland as colony” narrative, to Joe’s latest insight that the Jews are crumbling Europe to replace its volk” (yes…you heard right “volk”!

This is where the nativism of moon howlers in here and the toleration of it by well meaning shills inevitably leads.

All of those involved should hang their heads in shame.

J.o.e

@Andy Ellis

I was hoping you’d respond.

I was merely quoting an obviously anti-semitic Jewish man writing on the known anti-semitic platform The Times of Israel

J.o.e

oh I should have added – writing about the attitudes of establishment US Zionists

Andy Ellis

@Joe 9.47 pm

The source is immaterial Joe, it’s your approbation of the content that is the issue, much like your earlier fluffing of the neo-nazi documentary.

When people show you who they are, believe them.

J.o.e

@Andy Ellis

Do extremist groups actually exist? Y’know like Isis, neo-nazi’s, Ku Klux Klan, Al Nusra Front etc?

J.o.e

I ask because every time someone criticizes Zionism, an ethno-nationalist blood n’ soil extremist organisation you seem to be intent on tarring all of the Jewish community with the same brush?

Yet im the anti-semite?

President Xiden

What possibly could go wrong with all these enabling acts which oor Nicola is passing at the moment?

J.o.e

@President Xiden

My relocating to England

Ottomanboi

The progressive extinction of basic freedoms.
link to spiked-online.com
Where is the rebellion?

Scot Finlayson

I hope to god Alex Salmond can weed out the entryists joining the Alba party or it will be as f@cked as the SNP in letting in the virtue signallers,misogynists and toerags who abandoned New Labour,

it just takes one bad apple to get in early and spoil the whole barrel,

infiltrate, take over and then redirect is the entryist way,

whether from secret services or just a moon howling spittle flecked opinionated narcissist.
,

Hatuey

“Where is the rebellion?”

Unlike some on here, I’m comfortable criticising the swinish multitude of “ordinary people” who don’t seem to give a fuck about anything meaningful these days.

The “rebellion”, then, is sitting at home on his fat farting arse wondering what colour he might paint his en-suite.

There’s never been a generation so open to having the piss ripped out of it by politicians and/or anyone else looking to make a buck.

The Internet and Iphones screwed everybody up.

Society, politics, rebellions, everything that ever involved more than a handful of people that gave a fuck about anything, they’re all basically gone; replaced by the most beautiful little coloured squares on virtual screens.

Before you accuse me of self righteous bullshit, I’m one of them. Rebellions in Scotland were always kinda crap and boring. I’d much rather have an Iphone 12 than a square deal for the working man…

Hugh Jarse