Apocalypse Naw
We were going to take the night off until we read this drivel. Gah.
And if we’re being honest, we were just too pleased with the pun.
It seems that Unionist journalists writing doom-laden “We might actually lose Scotchland!” columns is the fashion du jour with UK newspapers at the moment. Barely a day goes by now without some London-based doofus belatedly realising what we’ve known since 2012 – that the referendum is up for grabs.
And with such a glut comes the pressure to find a new angle. Some go for “hilariously clueless”, while others plump for “cluelessly hilarious”, and some are just plain surreal. But our favourites are the end-of-days-ers.
Encouraged by actual adult politicians like George “cataclysm” Robertson and Phillip “space monsters” Hammond (not to mention George “Catholic genocide” Galloway), no luridly dystopian image of a post-Yes UK is too hysterical, and Martin Kettle’s piece for the normally-sober left-leaning broadsheet doesn’t disappoint. Let’s dip a toe in.
“It is clear that the change has followed the UK government’s attempts to confront Scottish voters with some of the possible realities that would follow a yes vote. Some dismiss these attempts as threats, others as mere bluster.
My own view is that they are legitimate and mostly rational warnings of some of the risks that may, and in some cases would, follow from a yes vote.”
Cataclysm. Space monsters. Catholic genocide. Legitimate. Mostly rational.
“When David Cameron says he loves Scotland or George Osborne warns about the currency, or Philip Hammond, just this week, says serious things about defence, the yes campaign’s response is to monster the Tory.”
Phillip Hammond didn’t say “serious things” about defence. He came up to scaremonger with a load of irrational nonsense that contradicted the last load of irrational nonsense but, somehow, still without becoming rational. Osborne’s “warning” about currency has been debunked by an entire parade of economists, commentators and even by members of his government. It’s not “monstering” to point out that someone talking bollocks is talking bollocks.
“My instinct, as a rationalist not a nationalist”
Miaow! Totally see what you did there.
“is that some of what the UK ministers say actually gets through all the same. Voters who would never admit in public to agreeing with Cameron or Osborne may nevertheless log their warnings in private – especially in a Scotland where it is so completely not cool to be a unionist.“
Well, that bit we agree with, on every level. “Shy Tory syndrome” did for Labour at several elections in the 1980s and 1990s, and is a real danger for the Yes campaign. (And wow, it really must be just unbearably uncool to be a “Better Together” activist. We can’t even imagine the self-loathing cringe that must seethe and bubble and boil under every waking moment, and probably quite a few of the sleeping ones too.)
“But there is a second thing to be clearer about too. If Scotland votes yes, the consequences could be messier and nastier for longer than most of us have allowed ourselves to consider.”
Oh, here we go.
“That is partly because there is a conspiracy of decorum surrounding the referendum campaign. The no campaign doesn’t want to attack the nationalists too hard because that plays to the nationalist message of bullying and victimhood.”
Seriously? “LYING FAT NAZI BASTARD SALMOND WANTS TO BRING ABOUT A GLOBAL CALAMITY” is the No campaign going easy on us?
“But the yes campaign is equally bland about pretending that every problem triggered by independence will be sorted pragmatically, amicably and quickly.”
Perhaps because nothing else makes any sense. It’s so blindingly obviously in nobody’s interests to make the dissolution of the UK any more awkward than it needs to be that it would take an outbreak of mass collective insanity unprecedented in human history since the Jonestown Massacre for anyone to be obstructive.
Scotland needs the rUK making its membership of the EU complicated like it needs a hole in the head. The rUK will have a shrieking existential fit if Scotland plays hardball over Trident. And both nations will have fragile economies just beginning to show signs of recovery which would be cast into the abyss of recession again by even a tenth of the financial havoc either could wreak on the other if it had a mind to.
The negotiations over Scottish independence will be the equivalent of the Cold War’s key defining doctrine – Mutually Assured Destruction. The West and the Eastern Bloc loathed the sight of each other, but kept the peace for half a century, even under incredible tensions and provocations, simply because neither could afford not to.
“I think this is misleading at almost every level. If a yes victory is declared, how will the British Labour party, meeting for its party conference on the following day in Manchester, react? By promptly agreeing to expedite Scotland’s departure? Dream on.”
As opposed to what? Vowing publicly to trample on the democratic wishes of the people of Scotland, as expressed in a legal referendum backed by the UK Parliament?
(Leaving aside the fact that it’ll be precisely bugger-all to do with Labour anyway, being that they’re in neither the Scottish Government nor the UK one.)
“A yes vote would explode into the UK party conference season. All the main parties would be destabilised in major ways.”
Things change sometimes. Deal with it.
“Salmond talks as though the negotiations following a yes vote would be straightforward, respectful and informed by mutual trust. Why should that be so?”
See above.
“They would more likely be devious, antagonistic and riddled with mutual suspicion”
Welcome to the concept of negotiations.
“as well as largely meaningless until after the 2015 general election.
Whether Salmond was negotiating with Cameron or Ed Miliband (and it is worth remembering that if Labour wins in the UK in 2015 and then wins in Scotland in 2016, Labour could in fact be negotiating with itself), the process would be likely to be prolonged.
The UK government would have every possible incentive to drive a hard bargain with Scotland, as Hammond made clear in the defence context this week, and it would be backed by public opinion.”
See above again. Labour – in the increasingly unlikely event of them winning in 2015 – would have to have completely lost their minds to have run on a platform of ripping up everything agreed by the start of the election.
Bear in mind that most people in the rUK think Scotland is a whingeing subsidy junkie and will be (misguidedly) quite happy to see the back of it. The last thing they’ll want after a three-year referendum campaign is to drag everything out for months longer by going on even more about the bloody Scots.
“Meanwhile, what about the public mood? Views will not remain frozen unchangingly once the result is in. Nor will they inevitably remain benign and peaceful. Nationalist opinion could become more militant if the talks become bogged down.
Even acts of violence are not inconceivable in certain circumstances or places, as anyone with a smattering of knowledge of the Irish treaty of 1921 will grasp.”
Shark. Jumped.
It isn’t 1921 any more. There is no history – none whatsoever – of armed struggle in the Scottish independence movement. Having pulled off the miracle of holding a referendum at all, and then to have won it after the best part of a century, nobody is going to jeopardise it over the sake of the odd bump and hiccup in negotiations.
Because at the end of the day, everyone HAS to work something out. There is no alternative. Having accepted the referendum and sworn to abide by its result, it’s simply inconceivable as a matter of both international law and realpolitik that the rUK could refuse to follow through on the deal, even if outside arbitration were required.
But even if we allow Kettle his mad flight of delusional paranoid fantasy and imagine for a moment that some lunatic DID commit some murderous atrocity – ultimately, in the bigger picture, so what? The 7/7 bombings were dreadful tragedies, but they didn’t result in the UK becoming an Islamic caliphate.
If anything, such an event would only drive home to both sides their responsibility to get on with it. Just days ago, Martin McGuinness met – hell, he toasted – the Queen. If there was anything of worth to be salvaged from the era of the IRA and the UVF, it’s that British people saw first hand and conclusively that you only solve anything by talking and compromising, even over what seems uncompromisable.
Economically, socially, logistically, and politically, the end of the Union must be – can only be – conducted as smoothly and amicably as humanly possible. The lessons of history, and the all-too-current example of Ukraine, shows that there is no other option.
Anyone suggesting otherwise is not just criminally reckless, but an idiot.
monster the Tory
Sounds like some kind of dance..right take your partners for a good old monster the tory
I know many idiots who will be upset at that comparison.
Fantastic work , as usual!
Its a shame about the English NHS imposing prescription charges. There are obviously people out there who have got medcines prescibed but are not taking them. It will cost more in the long run.
How very dare those Scots think they can democratically determine and negotiate their futures.
The UK government refusing to accept a democratic vote will provide lots of programme opportunities for the BBC World Service. They’re always keen to shine a light on such practices.
The Scottish situation is nothing like the Ireland in 1921, the man is an ar*e.
Apocalypse-naw.
See what you did there.
Liking that.
😀
This particular Kettle has boiled over big time and he wont be the last commentator to hint at social unrest.
It is the last desperate throw of the dice for some but it wont be a problem in Scotland.
PS:
Those returns of 73% for YES (with DK excluded)in Glasgow are too good to be true. I’d like to believe it but…
🙂
Guardian has really disgraced itself. Severin Carrell’s pretty awful but Its all a bit weird watching journalism that once seemed so progressive and liberal, exposing itself as nothing more than just another Project Fear tub thumper.
“Even acts of violence are not inconceivable in certain circumstances or places, as anyone with a smattering of knowledge of the Irish treaty of 1921 will grasp” and you know this wretched fool really hopes he’s right.
Excellent piece of work Rev. Thank you.
Nicely timed, that’s all of the highlands from inverness/fort william up with a major power cut aparently.
(obviously salmonds fault)
Reading this I feel I should raise the question. Who negotiates for Scotland if there is a yes vote. The Scottish Government MSP’s or the Westminster MP’s? Who holds more power to determine the future of Scotland?
call me dave
Similar results from the other RIC mass canvases, Shettleston was one I cant remember the others but they are coming out 70/30.
@Robert Whyte
Parliament to Parliament I would imagine.
If you are worried about not having been “monstered” yet you can order one of these;
link to thescottishscaremonger.blogspot.co.uk
They would do well to remember the world is watching,and any deviation from the agreed path(The Edinburgh Agreement)will be an example for others to follow as the example that the UK set. Seems to me that it is only Unionists that forget it’s existence, even the Spanish Government is aware of it.
The No campaign and sections of the media have tipped over the edge into utter madness. It’s astonishing to see it happen before our very eyes.
Still sad that the “empire” chose this route. A mutual balanced agreement could have been achieved to the benefit of all.
The Better Together legacy in the event of a NO vote will be long term resentment. That will become even worse as the failure to honour any of the jam tomorrow promises becomes evident.
I would hate to be one of those people looking back at 2014 and thinking “Why did I vote NO”.
A truly once in a lifetime opportunity.
Now that was real quality Rev Stuart Campbell. So good I am gonna read it twice and thrice.
I want “gifted, never wrong US pollster Nate Silver to come back to Scotland so I can poke him verbally in the eye for insulting the natives while on his “paid vacation.”
@jingly jangly
I can see that people living in areas like that may never appear on a U-Gov or Survation poll but there must be an element of ‘pleasing the questioner’to be factored in. Conversely many have taken the trouble to register to vote so there may be a hither to untapped YES being discovered.
Mind you I don’t know what is being asked and how the raw data is filtered so I’ll stow it away and hope you are correct, truly I do. 🙂
Trying to post!!!
@kendomacroonbar
Look i am a supporter of yes and snp but I do not know if that would happen. The MP’s have more voting powers and more people voted for them. We can not dismiss them, it sucks but its a grey area.
link to wingsoverscotland.com Kettle has almost certainly had very similar blethers with Toynbee at work too, the sneaky git.
“That’s the Guardian’s Polly Toynbee on this afternoon’s Sunday Politics London during a discussion on Nick Clegg’s leadership of the Lib Dems, telling presenter Andrew Neil that even were Scotland to vote No in September’s independence referendum, it would be unthinkable for any Scot to ever again lead a UK political party, or hold any of the great offices of state.”
Regarding armed struggle in the independence movement, there was a bit, back in the early 70s. The APG (Army of the Provisional Government) planted a few bombs. Got called the “tartan army”. Article with press cuttings about it here:
link to scottishrepublicansocialistmovement.org
I remember it well. Didnt get far though.
@Robert Whyte
Westminster MP’s have no voting powers in Holyrood. It will be down to both governments to negotiate, ergo Holyrood & Westminster governments will agree the slicing & dicing of assets and liabilities.
Absolutely spot on Stu – the negotiations must be managed in an amicable way – the Fitch report last week makes it very clear that there will be huge financial repercussions for the rest of the UK should they spit the dummy and not play ball:
“We expect a compromise would be reached that is not punitive for either party. Given the institutional strength of the UK, we would expect the transition to be managed very carefully, avoiding major financial dislocations. Were this not the case the pressure on the ratings would be much higher”
link to archive.today
Robert Whyte
Has Mr Salmond not said that a ‘Team Scotland’ will be formed to discuss the Scottish position.
People from all walks of life and in different political parties would be invited to represent our interests.
Perhaps we can suggest some we would like to be in the team and some we would not let on the bench.
I expect only a few will actually do the head to head stuff and of course we have our own civil servants crunching numbers on our behalf…(Oh!..)
Better bring in a YES first. Then get the popcorn in.
Another misleading pseudo mini-documentary on BBC tonight purporting to prove that the SNP achieves success only during times of economic hardship – and guess what – the economy is improving leaving the thought in the viewer’s mind SNP support will wane.
The manufacturing of consent continues by the usual (tv) channels …
Power cut over in Orkney. We did wonder if it was Hammond’s alien invasion and we checked the baked bean supply in case we needed to nourish Orkney’s forces for Independence Day type activity but we are back on the Prosecco and Philosophy.
Best article title I can remember, before I read it going to post up about the Saltire fundraiser.
We’ve got 9 days to go, just broken through the five grand mark yeh!
needs a lot more to hit the target. Do what you can folks
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/10-000-flags-for-yes–11/x/2353157
going to add some new perks including some for any groups wanting to bulk buy in advance. Keep an eye out.
O/T
Newsnight Scotland and Brewer really are pathetic.
Can’t be long to wait for the plug to be pulled on this political circus, and all the clowns that are involved in producing it.
The FM has said a cross party team would negotiate, but I can’t think of anyone major from the main Unionist Parties I would trust to act in Scotland’s interest and that makes me sad
Re. Martin Kettle. Pillock!
“…..My own view is that they are legitimate and mostly rational warnings of some of the risks that may, and in some cases would, follow from a yes vote.”
I’ll admit this is as far as I got as I’ve got better things to do with my time. 😉
@kendomacroonbar
I hate myself for this I do, but Westminster MP’s gave us all the “limited powers” we have. Yes they can not vote on them but they can vote to take them away. I want the SNP government to negotiate but that does not mean people of Scotland does. I know I want the scottish government to negotiate for us but the MP’s have an equal right (shoot me now).
@Valkyrie
How very apt, how avant-garde!
Glad your back on line.
Enjoy, please don’t leave us OK.
Piccini Prosecco Vino Spumante Extra Dry £15/ bottle reduced to £7:50 Tesco. 🙂
Found this whilst hunting today:
(Hoping a BBC whistleblower jumps ship soon!)
===========================================================
Showbiz News – Paxman slams BBC bosses’ pay-offs:
link to talktalk.co.uk
===========================================================
ps.
I believe the top 3 remaining BBC executives remaining after exDirector General George Entwistle affair, were connected to Tony Blair and Labour party?
Also I believe former Director General Mark Thompson is a Labour party member?
Unbelievable, James Purnell exLabour MP employed as BBC executive at £300,000!
This cannot be legal, surely!
Found a great anti-BBC site:
link to biasedbbc.proboards.com
Even acts of violence are not inconceivable in certain circumstances or places, as anyone with a smattering of knowledge of the Irish treaty of 1921 will grasp.
Sounds to me like dear Mr Kettle is pleading for some violence in Scotland that he can tie to the referendum so that he can say “see I told you it would turn violent against the union supporters, those nasty, evil Nationalist Party members!” 🙂
@caz-m
Lost count of the number of times the reporter mentioned “the nationalists” – yet another crude attempt to make the Yes campaign and the snp one and the same, and then to round-off a wee bit of free advertising for the torygraph with another “Scots misled by Yes” echoed by the state broadcaster… thank f*ck hardly anyone watches this crap…
@Robert Whyte
Sorry Robert, may be I’m not understanding your point, but suffice to say that the negotiations will be conducted by the respective governments.
Scottish Westminster MP’s not in government will not be directly involved in in post referendum negotiations, they just have no mandate to do so.
@tartanpigsy
I got one already! 😀
Could only afford the £5 though 🙁
Where do you choose between the two flag colours though? Doesn’t seem to be an option for that on there.
Missed out on everything tonight power cut across north of Scotland, was wondering if it was an attack from “Space” thankfully reassurance from sister in central Scotland via text.
Newsnight Scotland was its usual dire self, with the BBC vainly trying to promote Labour’s crass ‘pledges’ (what is it with Labour and ‘pledges’, remember ‘pledge cards’?).
Amusing video of nursery children getting a visit from ‘griselda the witch’, though they some how thought it was Margaret Curran , not sure how they made that mistake.
Then they had Labour’s Kezia Dugdale and Carol Fox from Women for Independence. Thought Carol Fox totally owned both Dugdale and Brewer, who was obviously getting frustrated as he realised he wasn’t going to get his own way.
Then we got treated to one of the trainee imported reporters spouting abject guff in which she tried to connect SNP and independence movement with the rise and fall of the UK economy. Which by the sound of an earlier comment seems to be the latest BBC theme of getting at the SNP.
How long is it now before we see the last of Newsnight Scotland? Dread to think what crap BBC Scotland have lined up as their ‘referendum’ nightly programme
“(and it is worth remembering that if Labour wins in the UK in 2015 and then wins in Scotland in 2016, Labour could in fact be negotiating with itself)”
Is anyone going to tell this numbnuts that the 2016 Scottish Election will come after we’re independent?
What an arsehole.
And so it begins.. Lets prod the Nats Nest and hope to get stung just to show how nasty and vicious these Nats are. The Black Art experts are about to hit town.
@kendomacaroonbar
They(MP’s)will still be in office, for a wee while, and have a responsibility for their constituency. A few may be eager to do an honest job for Scotland but some will act as agent provocateurs or how about…MP Jim Hood.
He sparked fury after he insisted he would still vote NO even if Scotland would be better off economically under independence.
Interesting question from Mr Whyte.
@Westland. I remember the false flag operations and the nearest bomber to prosecution was a retired British Army major. Edinburgh castle was one locus also concluded to be the work of somewhat ill military person. The 1986 Commonwealth Games had its moments of fear with false devices planted and the culprits again were British Army NCO’s jealous at being sidelined by Lothian and Borders Police in security duties.
There’re no confirmed cases of violence on either side!
@ call me dave
Totally agree, however Robert Whyte qualified his question with a statement which I can’t compute as being feasible in any shape or form.
How could someone like Jas Hood be involved in negotiations from a Scottish perspective given his stated position ?
No confirmed cases of either side aiding,abetting,counselling or procuring acts of violence.I forgot the OAP yessir assaulted on the Royal Mile by a Bitter Together woman.
No confirmed cases of either side aiding,abetting,counselling or procuring acts of violence.I forgot the OAP yessir assaulted on the Royal Mile by a Bitter Together woman.
O/T
Odds on YES prevailing now down to as low as 2/1 by some bookmakers and all now under 3/1.
This is a huge movement from the 6/1 and 11/2 that the bookies opened with a few months ago.
Over 55% at 9/2 which is generous though it was 7/1 two weeks ago.
I see much “LOL what about the Banoch Burn ROTFLMAO” in your future, Rev. The more “informed” ones will probably bring up the trumped-up Donaldson charges. But yes, it’s rather amazing how non-violent the modern Scottish Independence movement is, and remains, after 80 years – certainly in comparison with just about every other independence movement in history.
I think the main difference is that for one reason or another, it didn’t serve the British elite to stoke those fires as it did, and continues to do, in Ireland. Protestant/Catholic sectarianism did fine to suppress and distract the people of Scotland from the real enemy for a long time, with the memory of Ireland and the Troubles keeping the Scots down. Sedition was easier to contain when constant fear of bombings and attacks from Irish extremists of one stripe or another was clear and present: Scottish nationalists were thus safely considered deluded fools. But now, as anti-sectarian laws and groups are being established, sectarianism is not as effective a tool at divide-and-conquer as it once was.
Case in point, there’s even a Facebook page dedicated to Celtic & Rangers Fans for Yes:
link to facebook.com
I remain convinced that much of the response to the anti-sectarian legislation (“there isn’t really a problem in Scotland any more,” “why bring it into the light and reopen old wounds?” “this is just another way for Salmond/SNP to their inevitable dictatorship”) is borne from this divide-and-conquer. Divide-and-Conquer is a most insidious weapon in the UK arsenal, pitting people with a common goal against each other. We cannot afford to lose our focus, and so far – outside a few spats among disparate pro-indy groups – we haven’t. But the UK won’t stop trying.
kendomacaroonbar
Better IMHO without any unionist MP’s, apart from they were on the wrong side of the argument, SG strategies and negotiating points would have to be kept secret from the rUK.
That’s going to be the hard part keeping your options and deal making/breaking points secret.
See what trouble Hammond has got himself into.
Excellent piece again. “Gah!” indeed.
Thank you.
@Call me Dave
Can you just imagine Brown & Darling *negotiating* for Scotland… the very idea just gives me the heebie jeebies cranked all the way up to 11 !:-)
#Edward
“Thought Carol Fox totally owned both Dugdale and Brewer, who was obviously getting frustrated as he realised he wasn’t going to get his own way.”
Didn’t she just! She was great..
link to bbc.co.uk
Kendo, Call me Dave
Or Iain Davidson?, Ian Murray, Curran, Sarwar. Negotiating for Scotland? Keeping SG deals? Eh, NAW!
I love the smell of panicked bullshit in the morning.
And I love it when Stu gets angry. 😉
There is no modern history of SNP or any other political group causing civil unrest in Scotland.Full stop.
However HMG has form all over the world for destabilising just such situations as we are presently in. They then cancel any political negotiations/agreement until things have stabilised?
Don’t think they would go that far! However as I have said many times before we are threatening their gravy boat and pride. They have the means, nut cases and the experience. They are capable of anything.
Lots and lots of deliberate liars in the comments section for that article, spreading outright nonsense and false statistics, false facts, etc. It seems the bad articles bring them out the woodwork.
I think the main difference is that for one reason or another, it didn’t serve the British elite to stoke those fires as it did, and continues to do, in Ireland. Protestant/Catholic sectarianism did fine to suppress and distract the people of Scotland from the real enemy for a long time, with the memory of Ireland and the Troubles keeping the Scots down. Sedition was easier to contain when constant fear of bombings and attacks from Irish extremists of one stripe or another was clear and present: Scottish nationalists were thus safely considered deluded fools. But now, as anti-sectarian laws and groups are being established, sectarianism is not as effective a tool at divide-and-conquer as it once was.
IMO, there is a troubling overlap between the N.I. ‘Troubles’ and Operation Gladio. The same time period anyway. Operation Gladio’s primary objective was to create an atmosphere of tension in continental European society, in order to gain support for right-wing policies and increasingly authoritarian laws restricting individual rights of collective bargaining and political association. Coincidence?
IMO, this sort of lark might have been considered a tad fascistic, in previous decades. Personally, I’m not sure if social values are moving in a healthy direction, if this is thought acceptable.
I noticed a higher level of uninformed bile than usual in the BTL comments of the original article.
Oh to see their faces on Sept. 19th.
“All the main parties would be destabilised in major ways.”
Except one of course (the pretendy protest party that’s not a main one really). so what’s he saying ? everyone we will be having to negotiate with will be unstable.
Just coughed 50notes to the “FlagsForYES” appeal.
I’m going all the way. This is it. This is our one and only time, we must all push together, NOW!
If “NO” wins, the Dark Forces will fix it so that there will never be a next time.
They are not Democrats, they behave like Democrats to get elected but like Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood once in power, revert to Totalitarian and Authoritarian, pass Draconian Police Laws to cow and control the subjects(scotlands citizens)!
Scotland’s “Final Solution” will be “Settlement Plantation”, we see now Labour’s vehicle through the EU, flooding UK/Scotland with EU nationals, all allowed to vote immediately.
Romans used the tactic of Settlement, in France they first slaughtered the resisting Gauls and Resettled France with the client Lombard tribe!
British Union set up Plantation in Ulster using poor landless Scots to dispossess the Irish nationals. This is still fighting and killing today.
British Empire Settlement in North America using desperate landless British peasants to hold the land and deny the French and American Indian tribes!
China citizens walked into the adjacent Outer Mongolia and by being there, now have the land.
Simples, EU voters will vote for the party(Labour) thats opened the border, handed out access to UK state freebees. This would secure EU nationals votes.
Labour party ineffect buying votes.
Nats may have shot Labour’s fox by allowing all Scotland’s residents to vote!
ps. I’ve even rejoined Nats, since my last time in 1965.
COME ON PEOPLE ITS NOW OR NEVER!
Been busy all week, only now getting around to thinking that we are all more vulnerable to threats from GCHQ and the Pentagon than from any other space monsters. These are “classified” too, Mr Hammond. What a patronising twat.
Atholl bunnet? Glengarry? Deerstalker? Tam o’ Shanter? Feather Bunnet? Flat cap? Tweed Bunnet? … Put them all away.
After yesterday’s Spacemonsters from Her Brittanic Majesty’s Secretary of State for Defence, the only De Rigeur Scottish headwear should be the Tin Foil Hat.
Cmon Rev 7/7 was an inside job and i think the establishment will have no problems creating false flags after a YES vote,it just wont work.You see all we have to do is use forensics and an uncorrupt justice system.
I think it is a very safe bet that Labour won’t win in 2015. The media have fawned over Nigel Farage this last year, and he’s given Cleggy not just a kicking, but two kickings!
In the event of a hung parliament once more, we all know that it will be a Tory-UKIP coalition. I expect UKIP to finally win seats, and quite a few at that.
Which means for Labour, just as at the Edinburgh Agreement, that they will be locked out of the room during all post-referendum negotiations. Even now, I can hear Darling, Lamont and Curran shrieking like banshees as they beg to be allowed in the room.
At this very moment, I expect there are people who are already discussing things with counterparts over the border. Quietly in rooms all over the UK, the preparations in the event of a ‘Yes’ win are taking place, and these won’t just be government rooms; these will be rooms in every company within the UK. I know for a fact that every Financial House in the UK began this process last year.
Morning, here’s a related song by a rock band from Glasgow, who formed in 1988, enjoy.
The Almighty ~ Takin’ Hold (Genre: Glasgow Rock)
link to youtube.com
@fairiefromtheearth
Good point. Sensible.
@HorseBoy
You sound like a UKIP voter.
Just saw some previews of the Naws advertising campaign with its more job opportunities and guaranteed more powers guff. That will be the job opportunities that we benefitted from when Thatcher was around and many of our communities still enjoy today. As for the guaranteed extra powers, lol, I am sure the Rev will enjoy ripping in to that load of mince.
Clootie says
“I would hate to be one of those people looking back at 2014 and thinking “Why did I vote NO”.
A truly once in a lifetime opportunity.”
That should be on every billboard in Scotland!
tmitj says
“I love the smell of panicked bullshit in the morning.”
I really need to stop going to bed early, dammit
Roddy McDonald says
“Atholl bunnet? Glengarry? Deerstalker? Tam o’ Shanter? Feather Bunnet? Flat cap? Tweed Bunnet? … Put them all away.”
Is a see you jimmy hat alright?
ah’ll get ma coat 🙁
I’m not sure Kettle is talking drivel . I’ve been warning that Britannia will “Wave the Rules” after a YES vote.
link to nationalleft.blogspot.co.uk
What worries me is that he seems to be approving of this.
Listening to GMS, and i’m sick of the BBC saying the trouble in Ukraine is caused by seperatists. Surely it’s Unionists causing the trouble? They want to go back to the union with Russia.
Quite agree with the fun that the unionist panic provides. But let’s not get too carried away. In spite of all this flailing about that they do, we are still behind in the polls. All the YES pollsters and analysts keep saying comforting things about methodology and “shy factors” and all the rest of it. Maybe I’m just having a fit of depression today, but I would have thought that polls should be neck and neck by this stage……?
BTW, I keep hearing about a billboard campaign. I drive about Edinburg daily but I haven’t seen one. Anyone help?
“Maybe I’m just having a fit of depression today, but I would have thought that polls should be neck and neck by this stage……?”
No. I’ve been saying for two years now that most people wouldn’t really start paying attention until this spring, and particularly after the Euro elections. Being anywhere remotely close was all we needed at this point. I’ll be perfectly content if we don’t take the lead until mid to late August.
Spot on Rev Stu.
No dissent or incitement intended, but in quiet moment, let’s not close the door on Willie MacRae.
See that TNS poll…
41% ‘No’ breaks down like this:
30 – I have definitely decided how I will vote and will not change my mind
5 – I have almost decided how I will vote, but I may still change my mind
4 – I have an idea of how I will vote, but I have not yet made a final decision
2 – I have not made any final decision / I don’t intend to vote
So TNS saying nearly 70% open to Yes with just 30% set on No. This is about right. The latter are your status quoers.
All is not quite what it seems.
You have a lot of people who are not as thick skinned as e.g. Allan Bisset so keep quiet. That’s all.
link to bellacaledonia.org.uk
In spite of all this flailing about that they do, we are still behind in the polls.
That’s called the manufacturing of consent.
The more the polls remain unchallenged but forever quoted, the more the population believe self-determination is a lost cause.
Nice pun Rev. Here’s hoping that their final act of desperation is not to ‘Pauchle It Now’. 🙂
#Juteman
A quick search of Google gives you ‘Pro-Russia’ followed by protesters, militants, hardliners, activists, rebels and, of course, separatists. There are also references to russian nationalists.
No prizes as to why BBC Scotland chose separatists..
Reading the comments in the Guardian, I’ve noticed a significant change in the attitude of our southern friends who seem to now realise that independance shall bring change not only to us Scots but hopefully to the rest of the UK too. Time for us to show Westminster how a country can and should be run!
That this article should come from a so-called ‘progressive’ newspaper says it all. Full of misapprehension, dissembling, contempt for Scots, and imbued with a sense of righteousness about the way ‘we’ – the English/British establishment – do things.
For that is what underpins at bottom the panic, rapidly becoming hysteria, of the Establishment’s chattering hangers-on like Kettle.. The uncomprehending realisation that ‘they’ (Scots) don’t want to be like ‘us’ (England/Britain). But ‘we’ are great, aren’t we, Kettle asks? Who wouldn’t want to be like us? Backward savages, that’s who..
Call me dave
Must have missed this “glasgow poll”. Do you have a link? Thanks.
Derek Beteman puts the Kettle on, as am I.
Please realize the yes vote is only behind in the polls provided by the press who all support a no vote I have stated before that i am sure the true vote for yes is about 75 /25 The no side realize this that’s why their so called arguments are becoming more outrages and desperate we will win vote yes
Lord Robertson of port Ellon is going to defend himself against the criticism of his speech in Washington. He has been encouraged by support he has been given by unnamed supporters for his warnings of world turmoil in the event of a yes vote.
This clown has totally lost contact with reality and is in touch with some seriously deranged people or maybe he is in a fantasy land.
Mind you when he was the NATO stooge at the behest of the republican neocons in the good old US of A (now they were seriously deranged) he possibly got infected with some delusional ideas about himself.
Blair Paterson
Eh? WOS is not pro unionist press, nor is YES Scotland or for that matter Newsnet Scotland.
There is no way the the polls are 75/25 presently, I can see them moving that far as people become engaged, but at the moment, based on conversations I have with people throughout the West Coast and the North East of Scotland its nowhere near that. In fact I would say the poll’s are pretty close to the mark.
Aye Right
if you would like more people to read the Revs efforts you can help by distributing Aye Right Leaflets which list 14 pro Indy sites led by WOS.
A reprint has been ordered. Available at £66 per 10,000.
Sofar, well over 600,000 have been distributed. I even had one delivered through my own door!
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Seanair; I think Call Me Dave is referring to direct figures from mass canvassing rather than any official polling. I’ve certainly seen those kind of figures posted from a fairly prominent North Glasgow activist on Facebook.
I’m sure CMD will put me right if that’s not what he’s talking about.
Of all the Guardian political commentators I find Martin Kettle the most alien. His perspective and understanding of politics sits and stares at me like a violin playing aardvark might after a playing a piece. I appreciate a response is likely necessary but I have no idea as what has just happened or how to react.
I was underwhelmed by Kettle years ago when he wrote this, I don’t see much has changed. He defers far too much to players in the Coalition.
link to theguardian.com
I guess he is saying “I see in the polls a Yes vote might actually happen but see if you bastards do vote Yes we will all hate you and maybe there will be black and tans involved and blood shed. So be warned and get back in your box”.
My brother-in-law was doorstepped by pollsters last week regarding the Scottish Referendum.
He was too busy and on his way out – funny thing is he’s in Liverpool.
@Blair Patterson
You make a good point if you are talking about show of hands after Y/N debates. Certainly, the four or five I’ve attended have been roughly 75/25 in favour of Yes.
The No side just don’t have anything positive to say and nothing to back anything up with. In the main people are looking for answers and the No’ers just can’t do this.
The more people get out to the debates the more the Yes will grow.
Papadox says:
“Lord Robertson of port Ellon is going to defend himself against the criticism of his speech in Washington”
Have you seen the latest ‘interview’ with Lud Robertson by Indy Kitteh (Guy McV)? Its hilarious. Worth a watch.
link to youtube.com
PS Sorry Rev, forgot about the http thingy!
@X-Sticks
Good morning sir, thanks for the kitteh vid, fair lightened up the day.
😀
Aye, good morning to you too SquareHaggis.
I do love the smell of panic in the No camp of a morning. They’re losing the plot in a big way, and they’re going tolose the referendum too. 😀
O/T but mentioned by some folks above. The power outage which covered all of the North and the Isles affected more than 200,000 properties. We were off for just over 2 hours but some for longer. It seems SSE, of which Scottish Hydro is a part, (registered in England these days) are still not sure what caused it but have a helicopter out. Kind of scary that some unknown factor in one place can cause such a major problem. Wee green men from ‘up there’ maybe?
x_sticks.
I’ll get the wife to post that up on her Facebook page.
Tommy Sheridan did a great job at Cumbernauld last night.
@xsticks
Thanks that was excellent ! Really first class.
gerry parker says:
“Tommy Sheridan did a great job at Cumbernauld last night.”
Really enjoyed that Independence Live are doing a brilliant job of getting these debates out to the rest of us.
Link to the archive on Livestream:
link to new.livestream.com
IndyLive have a new website, but I don’t have the link for it here at work. Maybe you could post the link if you’ve got it, or if Kevin’s watching….
When did Ian Smart become a Scientologist?
…. an uncorrupt justice system.
We ain’t got one of those at the moment so I don’t think we’re magically going to acquire one on 19th September.
Being anywhere remotely close was all we needed at this point. I’ll be perfectly content if we don’t take the lead until mid to late August.
A more nail biting but probably better strategic approach to this. At the moment BT are torn, they can see Project Fear is a problem but they dare not change. In fact they seem to have gone to Project Abject Terror instead. However, if we were in front they would change tactics and personnel. So I agree, to quietly slip into the lead at the end of the Scottish summer holidays when Westminster is on its extended summer break is ideal.
So, this was written at about ten o’clock at night.
We were going to take the night off until….
Stu thinks he’s done for the day, but then something appears that’s in desperate need of fisking, and good. So he does it. Just like that.
I think this is another example of what makes this site so good. Stu is capable of producing an extended piece, well referenced and even scholarly, but also wittily and entertainingly written. And he seems to be able to do it with extreme facility. I have a suspicion he’s virtually posting his first drafts, and yet in journalistic terms these are head and shoulders above the contorted, worked-on and sub-edited things that appear in the mainstream press.
My God, I’m glad he’s on our side, that’s all I can say.
Being anywhere remotely close was all we needed at this point. I’ll be perfectly content if we don’t take the lead until mid to late August.
One of the Better No supporting articles the other day was claiming that Yes is doing better than it was expecting to do at this point and has actually peaked too soon. The inference was that we’ve shot our bolt and the only way is down. That this would energise Project Fear and they will instantly become an effective tactical machine.
Not just a river in Egypt.
Whilst I broadly agree, I wouldn’t want to be too sanguine about assuming that a future Westminster government will prioritise sense, reason, or even economic self-interest above political posturing and petty spite. Hell, “political posturing and petty spite” pretty much sums up the entire Tory platform, and there’s a strong argument to be made that they’ve badly damaged the UK economy as a result.
On the other hand, that’s no reason to be cowed by them either. “We’re so petty and vindictive that we’ll burn the country to the ground if we don’t get our own way” isn’t really a good argument for letting them continue to run our affairs, if you ask me. If they want to play silly buggers, we’ll just have to cross that bridge when we come to it.
Interesting that the folk that warn of possible unrest (God forbid) regarding the referendum seem to naturally assume that the Yes side would be the instigators.
On a slightly different note, got polling card through the door yesterday for the European elections. I have to say there were butterflies in my stomach and an excited spring in my step in anticipation for later in the year, my better half thinks I’m losing it slightly!
Peter MacBeastie
Thanks for that . Thought perhaps that I had missed a poll by one of the usual suspects which was so good for the YES campaign that the MSM/BBC had forgotten to publish it.!
Would like to believe the figures, but sometimes people being canvassed don’t like to disappoint the canvasser, and then there’s the matter of actually going out vote instead of dreaming about it.
Hope its a good sign however.
There’s also the matter of where is being polled. The Yes vote may be over 70% in Castlemilk right enough, but that doesn’t make it over 70% elsewhere. There are difficult areas, I know. I live in one of them. If you were to go solely by the canvassing around here and assume that was representative of the whole, you’d be a lot less happy I can assure you.
So Arb says, oh they’re choosing where to poll to get the result they want. No they’re really not. They try to get a representative sample. So the overall result won’t be over 70% not because they don’t account for Castlemilk, but because they try to give it only its proportional weighting. It’s certainly true that new voter registrations in poorer inner-city areas may not be being picked up by the pollsters, but this effect, if it exists, isn’t going to be overwhelming.
I’m encouraged by the polls because they demonstrate to me that there are other places where the Yes vote is stronger than it is here. We’re well in touch, not trailing miles behind. But let’s not run away with the idea that Castlemilk is representative of everywhere, or that the pollsters are fraudulent. We’ve still got some way to go, so keep the heid.
Before I donate to 10,000 Flags for Yes, one question – Do we have 10,000 flagpoles?
Just back from visiting my sister in hospital.
She was listening to the nurses last night talking about the referendum, apparently they’re voting No ! Duh.
What are they feeding these people in there?
seanair
Hi I was to engrossed watching the Spanish footie last night and just catching up today.
Yo have not missed a poll. I was commenting on the survey in Castlemilk by YES supporters. They got very high returns for YES.
As Morag rightly says (up a bit)nothing to get too excited about as it ‘may’ reflect only a small area within Glasgow.
I am also a Fifer and would love to see figures like that in Cowdenbeath or Dunfermline but I’ll dream on for a wee while till nearer the time.
🙂
@SquareHaggis1.37pm
A pity your sister didn’t suggest to them that those nurses who have decided to vote No should perhaps refuse to take the pay rise that the Scottish Health Service is giving them unlike the English Health Service that is giving them Hee Haw.
@the Rough Bounds
I’ll let her know tomorrow.
She’s a feisty one my big sis and I’m sure she’d be quite happy to pass that on.
As an aside, this is a wee meaasge from my 10 yr old son.
“Dad, this has been bugging me for ages”
“What has son?”
“It’s these Match Attack Fitba Cairds”
“Aye, what aboot them son?”
“Well, if I buy a pack o the English cards there’s 10 in a pack but if I buy the Scottish ones, ye only get 9, how come?”
“!”
“And dad, you ken these 2014 World Cup stickers?”
“Aye son, what now?”
“How come the English players have bigger heids than all the other teams?”
“Whit? let me see”
“!”
Subtle eh?
@Valkyrie 11.25, Dont throw the bean tins away in case they
cut of your comunications ( telephone ) buy in lots of string hey presto ( home made telephone ) nae BT charges,dont let they strings get crossed or you,s wull be speaking tae aliens, ok ah know a speak a lot of Can ah looni.awe the best to the Isles.
Good dissection Rev of Mr Kettles,doomsday scenario, though I do agree with him on the point that Westminster, will after a yes vote, be more devious,and suspicious of Scotland.
Did anyone notice that during the “UK” riots that it was the English cities burning. We as a nation were self controlled. I wonder if this crossed his mind as he was writing his article!
Nonsense. Look at this shocking footage from Edinburgh.
Kettle should be more worried about Ruk citizens hitting the angry streets when the reality of the lies they have been fed for decades are shown for what they are.
Regards to the poll questions being discussed, there have been lots of exit polls coming out of meetings with a much higher Yes rating than going in.
Could it be that the undecided but keenly interested voters who recognise the MSM and unionist politicians are talking bull and attend these meetings for clarification before making a decision?
This would be a fantastic boost on the basis that those who actually seek clarity find the YES side giving the clarity.
I firmly believe Yes are ahead, despite the polls in the media, and a huge chunk of credit goes to the army of Yes activists giving their own time and effort to the cause.
I really dislike polls personally, too easily manipulated by the likes of the media for example.
Look at the poll analysis on here, clearly explained and examined in great detail and put up for all to see.
All you get from media poll reports are Yes/No/Don’t Know.
@Vronsky
Heh heh he