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Anywhere but Scotland

Posted on April 13, 2017 by

So far as we can tell, the primary occupation of chunky former “Better Together” head honcho, Scottish Labour apparatchik and tuba enthusiast Blair McDougall these days – he appears to be otherwise unemployed – is posting endlessly on Twitter about how the UK would rob Scottish pensioners who’ve paid National Insurance to the UK for their whole lives in the event of Scotland voting for independence.

We’ve never been quite sure why that’s supposed to be a great selling point for how fabulous the UK is – “Don’t leave us or we’ll starve you to death” – but in any event it was dealt something of a blow yesterday by McDougall’s own party.

The image referred to a brand-new “pledge card” issued by Labour yesterday, which promised not only to maintain payment of the UK pension to pensioners living abroad anywhere in the world but to uprate it in line with inflation, avoiding situations like that of eldsters who’ve retired to countries which don’t have a reciprocal arrangement with the UK and therefore face a continual slide in the real value of their pension.

It certainly didn’t say anything about “with the sole exception of if they happen to live in Scotland”, but maybe there just wasn’t enough room.

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    1. 13 04 17 12:56

      Anywhere but Scotland | speymouth

    325 to “Anywhere but Scotland”

    1. Croompenstein says:

      Ha Ha You can just see them muttering under their breath ‘The old shit has gone and done it again’.. Keep it up Jeremy 🙂

    2. Bob p says:

      As long as it’s not Scotland eh.

    3. Stoker says:

      Blair McDougall is London’s poodle, chief bummer and habitual liar.

      https://www.ayemail.scot/store/

    4. David Caledonia says:

      If you pay into a pension scheme you get a return, if you where not to get a return just because you lived in an independent scotland, that would be theft as the pension money is invested for the good of all the participants of the fund, if you do not choose to leave a pension fund, you have a contract with that fund which would stand up in any english court that it was taken too

    5. Ali says:

      Do pensions come from that NI? I would have thought pensions would come out of the general tax pot, in this case the Scottish exchequer. So the connection is completely spurious anyway?

    6. Heehawbaws says:

      Ahhhh! But it does say ‘Overseas’.

    7. Robert Louis says:

      Here’s what Blair meant to say,

      ‘Labour pledges to keep pensions for people no matter which country they retire to in the world’*

      *except Scotland.

      And they wonder why nobody votes Labour anymore.

    8. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Do pensions come from that NI?”

      Hngh. The pensions don’t literally come from NI. The ENTITLEMENT to them does.

    9. Robert Graham says:

      Yep Jeremy he is a gift from god ha ha every time the idiots up open their gubs he sticks his size 10 in it , is he a SNP member yet ? because it seems he agrees with every issue the SNP supports, come over from the dark side Jeremy join us you know it makes sense .

    10. Naebd says:

      >David Caledonia says:
      >If you pay into a pension scheme you get a return

      Aye but state pensions aren’t funded by people paying into a pension scheme.

      There is no saved up money that the rUK would be holding onto if they decided they didn’t fancy paying another country’s pensions for it.

      You can’t sensibly extrapolate from how the UK deals with expat pensioners to how the rUK would deal with pensioners of another, independent country.

    11. Bob Mack says:

      The UK pension fund has been systematically robbed over the years by every Chancellor in office. I believe there is a “standing pot ” if you like of some £20 billion left in the kitty. The majority is made up of contributions by the workers of today paying the pensions of the retired.

      However ,it has to be acknowledged that there was a legal contract as well as a moral one that contributors would receive payment as it fell due on retirement. I do not think morality would stop Tories from trying to stop it, but the courts would more than likely take a different view.

      It was a lie then as it is now.

      Interesting to hear the Tory grandee Sir Bill Cash this morning rather arrogantly laying claim to all N Sea oil for the United Kingdom rather than Scotland. Could a power grab of energy assets be on the cards in spite of Scotland choosing independence? I thought the oil was worthless?

    12. jimnarlene says:

      He’ll still keep blowing his tuba, in the “you’re not getting your pension” parade.

    13. Thepnr says:

      According to an IFS report from 2013 expenditure in Scotland on the state pension for 2011-12 was £6.3 billion.

      There are other pensions paid by the UK government to retired civil servants, teachers, police and ex-service personnel so the total figure is likely to be closer to £10 billion/year if not more now in 2017.

      Absoulutely no doubt that the liability for paying this lies with Westminster.

      So see this mythical deficit of £15 billion that Scotland has, well that includes all spending on benefits in Scotland as of now including pensions, it is not Scotland’s bill to pay.

      It is my view that Westminster will still be responsible for paying Scottish pensioners £10 billion every year reducing over time as the liability moves to the New Scottish parliament after Independence.

      Has Kevin Hague ever taken Westminster’s liability for pension payments into account when producing his figures? No chance, you won’t find a graph for that!

    14. Cactus says:

      They’re going after the pensioner vote, their last gasp, how sad.

      Quick, counter-offer with FREE tea and biscuits… (Scotland only)

      Not just for a week, not for a generation, but for life, sacrifice.

      Howsabout the offer of 100% independent freedom of choice, forever.

      Enjoy yer lunch, what ye havin’.. burp.

    15. Thepnr says:

      Link to that IFS report from 2013 if interested.

      https://www.ifs.org.uk/bns/bn139.pdf

    16. JaceF says:

      The elephant in the room is to assume that Scotland has no bargaining levers upon becoming Independent in negotiating how this type of thing will play out.

      I can think of one Nuclear Submarine base sized bargaining lever and we haven’t even discussed the rent rates until it’s shifted. I can imagine the rent might cover the pensions costs and a good deal more for a very long time just within the first five years alone.

    17. Lenny Hartley says:

      Re Pensions as has been confirmed to a Pensioner called Collinson who wrote to the Pensions dept in Jan 2013 asking if he would still receive his pension if Scotland voted Yes , the answer was you can live in any country on this planet and you will receive your pension. As the Rev says, whether you get the triple lock over and above the basic rate pension current when you stopped living in the UK is dependent on if the country you choose to live in on retirement has a reciprocal agreement with the UK.

      So the short answer, everybody in receipt on a pension still gets it paid by UK in an Indy Scotland (plus any topup the Scot Govt adds to take it up to the European average or better.)
      Anybody who has been paying into the UK pension system but has not starting receiving their pension, the Former UK govt will have to pay a pro rata share when the pension retires.
      Simples really. One thing that is not mentioned much on Brexit is that if the UK does not allow EU Citizens to stay in the UK then the EU countries may send the pensioners back, this will put a huge strain on the already struggling English NHS. Young people from Eau in the UK, pensioners from UK in EU.

    18. Ali says:

      Sure. All I’m saying is that rUK govt won’t pay anything to Scottish pensioners other than by proxy via any settlement agreement that may be reached on separation between governments. In other words Scottish pensioners won’t receive rUK pensions and won’t be “overseas” pensioners. They’ll get pensions from the Scottish govt. I think pensioners who worry about such things need to be made more comfortable about that given their voting history/intentions. It’s the Scottish govt who need to make loud and strong promises. We’ve all seen Corbyn’s approval ratings anyway!

    19. Ali says:

      I intended to pose that as a question rather than a statement really. Whose pot will pensions be paid from?

    20. Robert Graham says:

      O/T sorry so soon
      On the BBC website right now A further 71 schools found to have defects , at no point in all the references to these PFI built projects does it mention or even hint at the culpability of both Labour and Tory parties and their involvement in this scandal .
      This should be a Golden opportunity for the SNP to announce a wide ranging inquiry , and firmly put this debacle at the front door of both Labour & Tory parties , and give the capital cost of these projects ,the information is there simply present it for all to see and the actual cost we are burdened with.
      Example of a 100 million build cost what are we are actually being charged 200 – 300 – 400 million this information has to be out there and before the council elections .

    21. arthur thomson says:

      The SNP need to be onto this one.

      If, on independence, Scotland is part of the EU, then I anticipate that the EU would soon ‘clarify’ the liabilities of the UK to Scottish EU citizens.

      Perhaps the EU will be inclined to clarify in advance whether Scottish citizens will lose their pension rights if they opt to stay in the EU.

      Maybe our MEP’s could raise the matter.

      Maybe it should be part of any Brexit deal.

    22. admiral says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      13 April, 2017 at 11:45 am

      “Do pensions come from that NI?”

      Hngh. The pensions don’t literally come from NI. The ENTITLEMENT to them does.

      Exactly. You pay NI over your working life, each year accumulates an amount of credit towards a state pension. To get a full state pension you need to have contributed for a MINIMUM of 35 years.

      Many people will contribute for more years.

      My view, either an independent Scotland will pay pensions to every qualifying pensioner directly and for that amount accrued prior to independence there will be a fiscal transfer to the Scottish Government from the Treasury in London. The other option is for the Treasury to continue paying pensions accrued up to the date of independence and the Scottish Government will take over responsibility for paying pensions accruing after independence.

    23. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ali says: 13 April, 2017 at 11:33 am:

      “Do pensions come from that NI?

      No.

      “I would have thought pensions would come out of the general tax pot, in this case the Scottish exchequer. So the connection is completely spurious anyway.”

      No. The Money is collected as the N.I. Stamp by HM Treasury – the Scottish Government has nothing to do with it. Also, the, “Insurance”, (note the meaning of that word,),given to the payer of the N.I. Stamp is given by the Westminster Government.

      As the Scottish NHS has always been independent they got, until very recently, their entire funding as part of the Block Grant given to them by the Westminster Treasury.

      Note that it is the Westminster Government who not only decide the level of that block grant but the Westminster Government that further regulates that Block Grant with Barnett Consequentials. Which Consequentials are the, “consequences, of changes that Westminster makes to English funding.

      In short the contract that, “insures”, those who have contracted to pay the NHS Stamp is with the Westminster Government and that contract is that the Stamp payer gets the provision of their needs from the Westminster Government.

      I would imagine that an independent Scottish Government would negotiate Pension Rights with the also then independent English Parliament post the union ending. Ergo there cannot be a united Kingdom when only one kingdom remains.

      So the legal situation is that Westminster will continue to uphold their, “Insurance”, until the contributions of the insured are being made to the current payers.

      So the burden of meeting the insurance to provide from Westminster will slowly transfer to an independent Scottish Treasury.

      As stated insurance is a legal contract between the insured and the insurer and can be contested in any court.

    24. Proud Cybernat says:

      “You can’t sensibly extrapolate from how the UK deals with expat pensioners to how the rUK would deal with pensioners of another, independent country.”

      First of all – they’re not “expat pensioners”. They are migrants. Just like we have migrants in the UK from other countries of the world. So what your arse-to-elbow bollox effectively implies is that pensioners living in countries that are independent of the UK (including an Indy Scotland) won’t receive their pension from the UK to which they are entitled?

      Do explain. Nah – don’t bother. We know you’re talking a pile of steaming keech (as do you).

    25. admiral says:

      Robert Graham says:

      13 April, 2017 at 12:25 pm

      O/T sorry so soon
      On the BBC website right now A further 71 schools found to have defects , at no point in all the references to these PFI built projects does it mention or even hint at the culpability of both Labour and Tory parties and their involvement in this scandal .

      The Lib Dems were in coalition with Labour in Scotland from 1999-2007, so are equally to blame.

      Yeah, Willie, that’s you I’m talking to. 🙂

      The Union dividend. My ass!

    26. Bill Hume says:

      Corbyn can promise anything he likes…..such a pity that Labour will be out of power to atually do anything for the forseable future.

    27. Thepnr says:

      @Naebd

      I worked in Norway for a number of years and paid Norwegian tax and their equivalent of NI. I will be payed a state pension by Norway at retirement age although living in Scotland.

      It’s that simple really.

    28. scunner says:

      My impression from perusing the darker corners of social media is that for many Yoons, their standpoint is that Independence would somehow annul “expat” status, and that the rUK could walk away muttering angrily “we don’t pay pensions to citizens of a foreign country”.

      I’ve always thought that these topics would be a part of post-indy horse-trading, unless the current UK Gov have explicitly stated otherwise, which I’d thought they already had regarding pensions for those currently in receipt.

    29. Having served in the Royal Navy (and never swore an oath of allegiance to the queen as no-one did in the Royal Navy until recently) and having paid my NI contributions, I recently found that I and other veterans will not receive a full state pension. This due to the UK government.

      https://www.change.org/p/all-veterans-of-hmforces-armed-forces-national-insurance-contributions?recruiter=32938812&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_term=mob-lg-share_petition-reason_msg

    30. K1 says:

      And this is precisely why the red Tories are being relegated tae the dustbin in Scotland. This utterly revolting little cabal of manipulative shits frightened our pensioners in the lead up tae the 18th September 2014, Labour activists phoning elederly people and telling them their pensions would stop if they voted Yes.

      Shower of lying bastards. As for McDougall…a soulless bought and sold lackie. The sooner we’re independent the sooner shits like him can fuck right off and crawl back up the arses of their masters in Londonium.

      These types don’t realise what’s coming down the road in life, everything catches up wi us aw…live a life bereft of integrity, lying manipulating and distorting reality for gain at the expense of your fellow human beings has a hefty price down the line dontcha know?

      People like this poison our communities, it is they who put the ‘divide’ intae divisiveness.

      Vexatious spirits richt enough!

    31. Truth says:

      @cactus

      Sadly pensions is not their last gasp.

      Come the time, they will have no qualms about playing the “Scotland will be flooded with immigrants card”.

      Sadly this will resonate with a lot of people’s fears.

      The likes of MacDougall are disgusting. There appears to be no depths as far as they are concerned.

    32. Ali says:

      Thanks, Admiral. However, won’t the Scottish govt simply replace the UK govt with respect to making these payments, having (theoretically) been in receipt of a Scottish percentage of those NI payments already? So future payments will come out of future taxation exactly as they do now.

      rUK won’t owe or need transfer anything because Scottish pensioners have already been getting payments drawn on Scottish tax income. All that will change is that the “reservoir” for this money transfer is in Scotland rather than England.

      Again “?”

    33. heedtracker says:

      Old MacDougal is an awful spectacle to watch on twitter right enough. Really crazy SLab stuff all the time, anger, hate, rant, SNP bad, kiss and lick that UK ring but above all else, try to scare the living shit out of Scots. Wonder where he picked up that habit.

    34. Golfnut says:

      In real terms Scotland already pays for all Pensions and benefits. Scotland receives about 60% of its notional contribution( I say notional, because we don’t actually know exactly how much it is, it won’t be less) to the Treasury.
      Contained within that 60% is our pocket money and pensions and benefits. Westminster pissed the other notional 40% up the wall on our behalf.
      Westminster will have to negotiate the transfer of a lump sum in respect of contributions already made, hopefully the SG would use that lump sum to start a proper pension fund for the future. The thing is though, we don’t actually need it to pay current pension liability.

    35. Robert Peffers says:

      @Naebd says: 13 April, 2017 at 11:58 am:

      “There is no saved up money that the rUK would be holding onto if they decided they didn’t fancy paying another country’s pensions for it.”

      For starters there cannot ever be an, “rUK”.

      The Treaty and both Acts of Union are proof that the Union is a bipartite agreement.

      That being so, if either of the only two kingdoms that signed the treaty decide to end the Union, there is no remaining United Kingdom.

      The Status Quo Ante is a return to two Equally Sovereign Kingdoms.

      Note too it is Kingdoms that united – not countries and in 1706/7 the Kingdom of England contained both Wales & Ireland as English Dominions.

      Which is why neither of their signatures is on the Treaty or Acts documents.

      “You can’t sensibly extrapolate from how the UK deals with expat pensioners to how the rUK would deal with pensioners of another, independent country.”

      Not to put too fine a point to it, Naebd, That’s utter pish!

      Not only can there not legally be an rUK but all insurance schemes are legally binding contracts between the insurer and the insured. The insured pay for whatever is agreed to be insured and have nothing to do with the arrangements of how the insurer uses the contributions they receive.

      It is the responsibility of the insurer how, and with who, they invests the collected contributions.

      In the case of the Westminster Treasury the insurers invested the collected funds with Her Majesty’s Treasury. So here’s the problem they will face.

      The UK is legally a bipartite union. Thus when they split up then both the assets and the debits are the responsibility of both parties. So if the English Kingdom wants to keep the assets then it must also keep the debits.

      It is thus idiotic to think that Westminster will continue as an rUK when it then consists of only the one Kingdom of England but dafter still to imagine it would actually attempt to keep all the assets of the Union yet expect the Kingdom of Scotland to pay a share of the debits i.e. debts and agreed contracts and treaties made from 1707 onwards.

      Please spare we Wingers your propagated propaganda and total acceptance of Westminster lies. Beginning with the madness that a legal treaty of two Kingdoms formed a single country that contains four individual countries.

    36. Naebd says:

      >First of all – they’re not “expat pensioners”. They are migrants.

      Oh FGS, stop wasting peoples’ time with this kind of pointless language police quibbling.

    37. Naebd says:

      >Not only can there not legally be an rUK but all insurance schemes are legally binding contracts between the insurer and the insured.

      Sorry, this is deluded drivel – pensions policy is decided by politicians. rUK politicians can decide whatever they want by voting on it and changing the pension laws.

      Absolutely does my head in that the case for independence is seemingly based on this complete voodoo bollocks. It is actually counterproductive because anyone who isn’t a full-on Yesser is going to look at it and thing “Wow. They have to come up with this laughable nonsense. That implies that there isn’t a sensible financial case for independence”.

    38. Naebd says:

      >Robert Peffers

      I wrote a reply but it didn’t get posted (yet?)

    39. DerekM says:

      This is where the Scottish government should step in and say they will top up the UK pension to the levels other EU nations get.

      They should not get caught up in the argument who is responsible and if westminster say you will not get your pension money we owe you then they should reply well we will see you in the international courts.

      Lets see the yoons try to spin their crap pensions provision in the UK against an increased Scottish pension.

    40. mike d says:

      Thepnr 12.32 pm exactly, i know personally loads of irish people who when they reached state pension age,went back home to mayo and Galway and get their pension to which they contributed to. All other talk is the usual scare the pensioners sh**e.

    41. Robert Graham says:

      Admiral thanks for the correction oops yes indeed i forgot Wullie , it’s so easy to overlook this fine politician and his party , it’s like the music in a lift or while on hold on the phone it’s always there in the background and you wonder why , and there never is a off switch handy , ha ha cheers .

    42. Willie Hogg says:

      During the 2014ref, dId WoS not display a clip of the then pension minister explains all this. I.e. If you paid NI then you were due pension prorata from the U.K. Gov.

    43. Robert Peffers says:

      @Naebd says: 13 April, 2017 at 1:02 pm:

      ” … Sorry, this is deluded drivel – pensions policy is decided by politicians. rUK politicians can decide whatever they want by voting on it and changing the pension laws.”

      That is absolute and utter pish!

      It reads suspiciously like the character, “Rock”, and his insistent claptrap.

      In any case the Westminster Ministry itself has publically stated that legally the Westminster Government are liable for all NHS pension payments no matter where on the planet the pensioner chooses to reside.

      My own mother, father and my sister got their UK pensions, (my sister not only still gets her state pension but her UK government Works Pension paid to them in Australia).

      Mum & Dad retired and emigrated to Australia in 1962 to join my sister who emigrated there the previous year.

    44. Clootie says:

      if you live in any EU country pensions come under EU rules – which means that any time spent working in any country in the EU is counted towards your ultimate pension in that country and protected under EU law. So you would be entitled to a part pension from the UK for any period for which you contributed.

      The threat to pensions for ALL personnel who come to the UK to work is Brexit and the removal of EU Law.

    45. Roland Smith says:

      I reached pension age in April this year. So for those stating an opinion an independent Scotland would have to pay my pension, simple point, lets say I decide to while away my days from now on in Spain, who do they think will pay my pension?

    46. Bob Mack says:

      The troll can spout all he likes, but legally the government of the UK insisted you pay NI to provide for old age. It was not possible to opt out. That my friends is a legal contract whether Parliament decide to change rules or not.

      Secondly to James Caithness. James, the only part of your pension that was contracted out was the second pension. I believe this was done without consultation. The government defence of this amounts to ” lower investment profit” than expected. Just the same as an annuity I suppose.

      They did not stop your basic pension, but they did put part of it at risk to market fluctuations.

    47. Cactus says:

      Aye, remembers what Bill Hicks said..

      You don’t give the taxman your taxes, they take it.

      It’s already been deducted from your payslip.

      There is no opt-in / opt-out option.

      They are liable, in full.

    48. Craig P says:

      This was pish when Gordon Brown was scaring pensioners back in 2014 and it is pish now. Sadly I don’t recall a single mainstream media outlet ever calling Brown and MacDougall out on this. If the BBC wants to know why we don’t trust it any more the pension scare is a prime example.

    49. Bob Mack says:

      @James Caithness,

      Regarding your case, I suggest you look up the ruling of the Supreme Court on judges pension rights which was heard on 16th January this year. The judges and magistrates found themselves in your position and took the case to trial. They won and the ruling will affect most people working in public service. The law sometimes beats “government legislation”

    50. Vestas says:

      The Scots govt will physically pay you the money but the English govt will have to pay it to them.

      This is the way it works now in the EU.

      https://euobserver.com/justice/137575

      Relevant section :

      “The report also notes the case of a Spanish citizen who had worked for 25 years in Sweden and another 10 years in Spain. The Spaniard had moved to Sweden to retire. Then, last April, Swedish authorities asked their counterparts in Spain to send over the 10 years worth of pension allowance.

      “So far, almost one year has passed and no response has been received from Spain. The citizen still has not received any payments,” notes the report.”

      So that one went wrong for the individual but pension rights are clear-cut. Whoever you paid the contributions to is liable for any payments.

      Whoever the troll is they’ve clearly got no clue at all – even about what was said in 2014.

    51. Effijy says:

      Scottish Pensions were Guaranteed by Westminster
      Even if we had voted to leave in 2014.

      No way that they could not pay me after 40 odd years
      Of making contributions to Westminster would they not
      Pay out.

      In real terms, the other European Nations have better
      Pensions than the UK. If Britain is great, what do we call
      The Irish, Icelanders, Fins, Danes, and Norwegians who all look
      After their pensioners?

      Westminster has increased my wife’s pensionable age by 7 years
      After 35 years of contributions, and now the Tories are hinting
      That it might need to go up to 70?
      It’s a very short step from 70 to not having a
      Government pension at all.

      Watch this space!

    52. Croompenstein says:

      What is this ‘no legislation passed at Holyrood for a year’ schtick that the yoons are howling about?
      I heard Gary Robertson get this wee dig in at John Swinney this morning and JS didn’t retort to it…

    53. Albert Herring says:

      Scottish pensions are paid from Scottish taxation.

      This will continue after independence.

      We don’t need London to pay our pensioners their insulting pittance.

      We can do a damn sight better ourselves.

    54. galamcennalath says:

      Effijy says:

      In real terms, the other European Nations have better Pensions than the UK.

      I saw a table somewhere, fairly recently. In broad terms, the UK state pension is about a third of average UK earnings. Across Europe, the average pension is about half of earnings, country by country. And, the best manage to have state pensions about two thirds of earnings.

      I believe it should be a policy for iScotland to rise to at least typical European ie half of average earnings.

    55. Valerie Rooney says:

      @Naebd

      You just aren’t grasping you can’t change law to apply retrospectively, unless it’s to someone’s benefit. It’s basic rule of law.

      A pay award is backdated to the time the negotiations began.

      Wangland cannot enact a future law that somehow backdated punishment on me for my NI contributions, that I had no say over being deducted from my salary.

      UK are going through a pension obligation right now, with Brexit. As the 27 bloc rightly say – you contracted to pay these future pensions, and you will, or face the law.

      Whatever pension obligations are owed to an independent Scotland will have to be assessed, and a value arrived at. That value might be in cash, or an Indy Scotland, could, I suppose, accept the value in some other form. I only say that, because there could be a situation where an Indy Scotland has access to cash, so may want the value of an asset more.

    56. Robert Peffers says:

      @Naebd says: 13 April, 2017 at 1:02 pm

      “Sorry, this is deluded drivel”

      Oh! Dear! Here we go with the Rock-like claims that offer no logical explanations and cite no other proofs than, “Because I say so”, and continue with, “and I say the Unionist dogma is all powerful and 100% true and enforceable”.

      Yep! there it is – right there:-

      “pensions policy is decided by politicians. rUK politicians can decide whatever they want by voting on it and changing the pension laws.”

      None of which proves other than it is total bollox and it is time for we Scots to tell those disgusting Westminster people, and their sycophant followers, “Sorry and all that but you are on your own now – we are not going down with Her Majesty’s good ship, “Westminster”, and all who wish to continue to sail with her when she is holed below the waterline.

      Can’t say it has been nice knowing you – because it has not been so”.

      ” … Absolutely does my head in that the case for independence is seemingly based on this complete voodoo bollocks.”

      The fact is that, “voodoo bollox”, always comes with a thought through argument, and often an unimpeachable source cited. Where, though, is your logic and proofs?

      Sorry but, “Because I say so”, is not proof. Neither is, “because Westminster says so”.

      It is, without doubt, that something has, “done your head in”. You demonstrate that fact with each post you make here on Wings and tweet you make on twitter.

      Please learn how to properly debate – for nothing you attempt here comes close.

    57. galamcennalath says:

      The Rev having a hard time on Twitter trying to through some very thick skulls. Truth is, they don’t want to admit the reality.

      If you earn a UK pension, you will get one no matter where you live, or what nationality you have or adopt.

      How can they argue with that?

    58. Song42 says:

      OT

      6pm @George Square this eve *RuthClause* for those that wanted to know on last thread.
      Independence Live are covering the event too if your not physically going.

    59. admiral says:

      Croompenstein says:

      13 April, 2017 at 2:10 pm

      What is this ‘no legislation passed at Holyrood for a year’ schtick that the yoons are howling about?
      I heard Gary Robertson get this wee dig in at John Swinney this morning and JS didn’t retort to it…

      More guff from lying Yoons

      A visit to the legislation.gov.uk website shows that in 2016 22 Acts of the Scottish Parliament (primary legislation) were passed (the highest in any year since devolution began)and 438 Statutory Instruments (secondary legislation) were also passed.

      In 2017, one Act has been passed, along with 109 Statutory Instruments. There are 2draft Statutory Instruments currently being processed.

      That makes almost 600 pieces of primary or secondary legislation enacted or nearly enacted by the Scottish Parliament from 1 January 2016 to date.

    60. admiral says:

      There are 2draft Statutory Instruments

      Sorry – should be 27 SIs in previous post.

    61. Jack Murphy says:

      Local Council May Election. In Edinburgh?
      Here’s a direct link to all the candidates in every ward.
      Gives you time to decide if yer dithering. 🙂

      http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/20033/elections_and_voting/1558/who_you_can_vote_for

    62. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If you haven’t heard Ruth’s latest on the R*** clause, please check WOS Twitter – truly unbelievable stuff.

      She must believe that attack is the best form of defence, or somesuch similarly military credo…

    63. galamcennalath says:

      Just a wee thought about UK pensions. Suppose there was no continuing state? Suppose England (and Wales) opted to become a completely new state on the dissolution of the UK?

      Now, I don’t for one minute believe that will happen, however I believe the ongoing obligations of rUK for UK pensioners is tied to continuing state status.

    64. Ali says:

      “Scottish pensions are paid from Scottish taxation.
      This will continue after independence.”

      Which is sort of what I was trying to say. There isn’t unspent NI sitting in London to withhold because the Scottish element of it has already been spent on pensioners in Scotland and Scottish tax in the future will pay for Scottish pensions in the future. Therefore (if this is true) there are no funds to transfer and no threat to pensions.

      Citing examples of pension rights administered from working in other states doesn’t really parallel the situation where we are all currently in one state. Wouldn’t have thought there were many parallels to draw on.

    65. Robert Peffers says:

      @admiral says: 13 April, 2017 at 2:47 pm

      ” … That makes almost 600 pieces of primary or secondary legislation enacted or nearly enacted by the Scottish Parliament from 1 January 2016 to date.”

      Great post, admiral, it made me laugh as I mentally pictured the combined Yoons, spitting teeth and yelling in Yoonunism, “They should be getting on with the day job”.

    66. Thepnr says:

      Lots of new posters today, pensions must be something that stir some. Welcome glad to have you and your sensible comments 🙂

    67. galamcennalath says:
      13 April, 2017 at 2:40 pm
      The Rev having a hard time on Twitter trying to through some very thick skulls. Truth is, they don’t want to admit the reality.

      If you earn a UK pension, you will get one no matter where you live, or what nationality you have or adopt.

      How can they argue with that?

      =============================================

      I served with men in the Royal Navy who emigrated to every corner of the globe (Canada, USA, NZ, Australia, Chile etc etc) they get their RN pension and now State pension. Exactly the same for friends of mine who were in the Coastguard, civil servants they moved all over the globe and they still get their pensions.

      In 2014 one of the Coalition ministers (he was a lib dem) circulated a letter explaning that pensions were safe and would be paid.

      However there were still doubters.

    68. bob says:

      ‘Anywhere but Scotland’ sounds a bit like the Scottish approach to Uni fees, except that is ‘anywhere is free but rUK’

    69. Flower of Scotland says:

      Croompenstein@2.10pm

      I heard that too. Also he should have put the blame of PFI scandal squarely on Labour.

      John Swinney is just sometimes too nice! But with Gary Robertson and BBC radio in Scotland in anti Indy mode, John needs to confront their subtle misinformation.

    70. Bob Mack says:
      13 April, 2017 at 1:58 pm
      @James Caithness,

      Regarding your case, I suggest you look up the ruling of the Supreme Court on judges pension rights which was heard on 16th January this year. The judges and magistrates found themselves in your position and took the case to trial. They won and the ruling will affect most people working in public service. The law sometimes beats “government legislation”

      =====================================

      Thank you Bob Mack?

    71. Ken500 says:

      Scottish taxpayers pay (UK) Gov pensions and welfare benefits. Approx £15Billion. It could be less because of higher employment rate in Scotland. It come off the £54Billion in taxes raised in Scotland. The Scottish Gov could rearrange finances to give a higher payment instead of the bureaucracy of benefits. Saving money and giving pensioners more dignity and choice. Without paying for Trident, loan repayments on borrowing spent in the rest of the UK. A tax on drink or minimum pricing etc. Cut high taxes in the Oil sector when the price had fallen. A fair improved tax system. Instead of foreign multinational tax evading. In line with EU policy and free fair trade.

      Scottish Gov is now getting the power to stop sanctioning vulnerable people and children. They can stop it. No more food banks. Thank goodness. Not before time. Most people never thought they would be living in a society where vulnerable people were being starved to death. Appalling.

    72. Pete says:

      As I understand it, current pensions are paid out of current taxation.
      It is not funded like private or company pensions.
      The entitlement is built up and, after independence, Scottish pensioners will be paid out of current Scottish taxation.
      Otherwise the SG would be awash with cash from current taxation and no need to pay out.
      For what it’s worth, that is my understanding.

    73. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      Hmmm ..
      If only Scottish Labour were a truly autonomous and independent Political Party?

      Best to listen to their Boss down in London and stop being divisive.

    74. Fred says:

      This of course won’t affect the good folk of Shettleston who, obligingly enough, die before their pensions are due!

    75. Thepnr says:

      @Pete

      Your missing the fact that the UK government has already stated that even if Scotland was Independent it is Westminster who is responsible for paying pensions in Scotland.

      That liability could be as much as £10 billion/year, money that the UK government owe to the pensioners of Scotalnd. We all know that pensions are payed from current taxation and there is no big pot of money to fund this.

      There will likely be a deal in the certain to happen Independence negotiations. We walk away with no debt inherited from the UK which is where the pensions have been paid from since not enough taxes have been raised. Then Scotland pays it’s own pensioners.

      Government borrowing has been paying for own pensions that’s why we’re £1.5 Trillion in the red.

      Those govern us are more than useless, they are reckless, feckless and utter bastards to boot. We do not need their R*** Clauses or increases in Inheritance Tax allowances which make the poor pay for the rich.

      We don’t need their Brexit either which will make all of poorer and remove our rights as citizens of the EU.

      No, all we Scots need is the right to make our own decisions. To do that we need shot of the cruelest government I’ve known.

      JUST VOTE YES!

    76. Ken500 says:

      Teachers, Police etc pension are paid from local authority funds. Also funded from the Scottish Gov. (From Scottish taxes raised in Scotland). Same Doctors, nurses public health care workers. Pay from Health Boards Funded from the Scottish Gov. (Pay from taxes raised in Scotland) £13Billion a year in health funding. Some of these pension funds have £Billions invested in them. Under Council/Health board control. Liability under written by Scottish Gov assets. Scotland has assets and resources. Oil, wind sea, farming, fishing, forestry mineral resources (even coal) Vast land resources.

      Defence pensions (Scottish) funded by Scottish share of Defence spending contribution. Approx £4Billion a year. There are approx 100,000 service personnel, being reduced to 80,000. Efforts to increase P/T TA service people. Reduced pension liability. A Defence budget of approx £40Billion. The pension liability is a minute proportion of this spending. Scotland gets less contribution back in personnel stationed in Scotland for the (£4Billion) contribution. Another discrepancy.

      People died eventually. Many pensions (pension liability) die with them even after contributions. The funds go back to the State. People died younger in Scotland unfortunately. Less of a pension liability. Scottish (UK Gov) Pension cost £6Billion a year. Rest of the UK Gov pensions cost £72Billion? a year. A higher pro rata liability.

    77. Morag says:

      I think the crucial difference between the pensioner who retired to Spain and the one who continues to live in an independent Scotland is that in the former case the tax base for the UK is unaffected while in the latter case the Treasury has just lost 8.6% of its population and so presumably around 8.6% of its tax base.

      Since pensions are paid from current income rather than from banked NI contributions this is a significant difference. England (+ whatever) is now lumped with 100% of the pension liability whole only having 91.4% of the tax base. In contrast Scotland doesn’t have any liability to pay ongoing pensions although it now possesses the tax (and NI) income from the missing 8.6%.

      It seems to me that some arrangement will inevitably be negotiated whereby iScotland recognises this and chips in some sort of pro rata contribution towards paying existing pension entitlements. I suspect this may be something like the English treasury only paying 91.4% of the full liability for ongoing pensions to the Scottish treasury to distribute to Scottish pensioners.

      It’s entirely unjust that iScotland would be expected to fund in their entirety the pensions of its residents who had paid their contributions to the UK treasury in the past. But it’s also unjust that iScotland could take 8.6% of the tax base away from the English treasury but expect it to go on paying 100% of the ongoing pension entitlement. So neither of these things will happen and a reasonably equitable solution will be agreed.

      What a lot of fuss about absolutely nothing. All geared to scaring pensioners though.

    78. Murray McCallum says:

      The eligibility rules for the UK State pension are listed here https://www.gov.uk/state-pension/eligibility

      They seem very clear and simple.

      Even if you assume all Scots were refused UK Citizenship in the event of independence, then effectively everyone in Scotland has “moved abroad”.

      Again, the UK Gov rules are very clear if you should move abroad “You are entitled to live in another country and receive your UK State Pension”.

    79. Pete says:

      Morag at 3.57
      Thanks for that.
      You have explained most succinctly what I was trying to say.
      However, I can’t quite understand why you think it unfair for the SG to immediately start paying for Scottish pensioners?
      Surely, if you accept that current pensions are paid from current taxation, then it is entirely fair for the SG to pay Scottish pensioners post independence.
      Please explain?

    80. mike d says:

      Albert herring 2.15pm. Yup,all UK state pensioners are paid from taxation . there is no state pension pot.

    81. Morag says:

      Pete, because the UK Treasury, which we’re assuming has become the English Treasury, has trousered all the pensioners’ NI contributions. This isn’t nothing, even if that’s not where the current pension payments are coming from.

      Another way the mitigation might be organised I suppose is some sort of lump sum credit to the Treasury of iScotland to recompense for that. It could all be wrapped up in the discussions about the share of the national debt or something like that.

      Bottom line, I think iScotland will chip in a bit, one way or another, when the final settlement is reached. Everyone will get their pension, and if Scottish pensions become larger than English ones over time I hope that people who paid in while we were still in the UK still get the higher rate.

    82. mike d says:

      JTRIG trolls at work on wings.

    83. Ian McCubbin says:

      I think it’s a gchq not generated nonsense tweet to take us off focus

    84. Robert Graham says:

      anyone have a link or the time of John Swinney’s interview on the BBC ? . I agree with comments as to the SNP still being a bit to nice to the obvious enemy the BBC , why bother they are not our friends and never have been .

    85. Legerwood says:

      Pete @ 4.06

      “”However, I can’t quite understand why you think it unfair for the SG to immediately start paying for Scottish pensioners?
      Surely, if you accept that current pensions are paid from current taxation, then it is entirely fair for the SG to pay Scottish pensioners post independence.””
      ……….

      All pensioners are paid out of current tax revenues because successive UK Governments did not put the payments made by those pensioners during their working life into a separate pot. Thus the payments made during their working life have already been used by those Governments. Therefore it would be entirely unfair for the UK Government to then expect the Scottish Government to pay the existing pensioners at the time of independence.

      This would in effect mean that the UK has had the use of the revenues from those pensioners during their working lives but don’t have to pay out when the pensions fall due.

      It would also be unfair and open to challenge since the contract by which payments were made in expectation of a pension later is between the UK Government and the pensioners.

    86. Murray McCallum says:

      If I had a choice I would like Scottish independence to create a point-in-time split in the UK State pension, i.e. eligibility up to date of independence per UKGov rules and thereafter part of a new Scottish State pension.

      There would be a generation of people receiving two State pensions. This seems a fair and transparent way of funding/paying a State pension.

      If I were younger I would rather take my chances on a Scottish State pension scheme than the means-tested one for 80 year olds that is increasingly likely in the UK.

    87. Albert Herring says:

      Morag, your suggestion implies that England would pay 91.4% of Scottish pensions as well 100% of English, which is not fair either.

      Scotland is perfectly able to pay its citizens a much better pension, and from a more reasonable age.

    88. caledonia says:

      Roland Smith says:
      13 April, 2017 at 1:43 pm
      I reached pension age in April this year. So for those stating an opinion an independent Scotland would have to pay my pension, simple point, lets say I decide to while away my days from now on in Spain, who do they think will pay my pension?

      Have you tried Kezias magic money tree

    89. Thepnr says:

      @mike d

      Just learned something so Ta.

      “The scope of the JTRIG’s mission includes using “dirty tricks” to “destroy, deny, degrade [and] disrupt” enemies by “discrediting” them, planting misinformation and shutting down their communications.[2][3]

      Known as “Effects” operations, the work of JTRIG had become a “major part” of GCHQ’s operations by 2010.[2] The slides also disclose the deployment of “honey traps” of a sexual nature by British intelligence agents.”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Threat_Research_Intelligence_Group

    90. Famous15 says:

      The Scottish Government will pay our pensions.

      The Scottish Government will negotiate fair division of assets with rUK including regard to what was paid into NI.

      “The man or woman inthe street” need not worry.

      Any attempt by any government to renage on its resposibilities to ensure pensioner’s rights will suffer the wrath of the IMF . Even Mugabe in Zimbabwe was forced to continue to pay the pensions of the Rhodesian soldiers who fought against him.

    91. Albert Herring says:

      “because the UK Treasury, which we’re assuming has become the English Treasury, has trousered all the pensioners’ NI contributions”

      *and has paid pensions to pensioners across the whole UK*

    92. Robert Peffers says:

      @galamcennalath says: 13 April, 2017 at 3:02 pm:

      “Suppose England (and Wales) opted to become a completely new state on the dissolution of the UK?”

      Can’t happen, galamcennalath. The present legal standing of the Union, in spite of the Westminster machinations, is still legally, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”.

      This title came about when, “The Irish Free State”, (then legally a dominion of, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain”. Declared itself to be the independent, “Republic of Ireland”.

      In doing so it could not claim any of the assets or debits of the United Kingdom but only, if you like, “What it stood up in”, or the fixed assets of the south of Ireland.

      The United Kingdom, thereafter retitled itself, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”, but that has two legal facts.

      It is NOT, as Westminster implies, a change in anything other than name. First of all it could not be a treaty as the two sides in the Civil War were both legally parts of the UK, (or more correctly both were parts of the Kingdom of England by the, “Crown of Ireland Act”, 1542. You cannot have a Treaty of Union with yourself.

      Ireland remains a country partitioned by two legislatures. The UK retained any non-fixed assets and non fixed debts and the Republic started with a clean slate.

      As the Treaty of Union only has two signatory kingdoms then on them splitting up the Status Quo Ante automatically applies and that is both parties return to their before Treaty status. The Kingdom of England returns to being the three country Kingdom Of England and Westminster is not legally the de facto parliament of England, (either country or kingdom).

      Indeed as the Old Palace of Westminster burned to the Ground and was rebuilt in its present form by the United Kingdom, Scotland owns part of it. (negotiable).

      We have, after all paid our share of building and maintaining it for all those years.

      So we have a return to two, equally sovereign Kingdoms. If The Kingdom of England then decides to become a new state, country or kingdom, what legal claim does it have on the assets, or debts, of the former Kingdom of England? Never mind what assets or debts of the former United Kingdom they were an equally sovereign partner in?

      Do you actually believe that Westminster would give up the assets that the entire UK has paid for over the years – like all those, “national”, assets and treasures like the National Museums, galleries, theatres ad infinitem?

    93. heedtracker says:

      A huge chunk of NOT Scottish oil and gas revenues are the basis of the biggest UK private pension funds. The private ones that pay £50+ a year.

      Its all in the spin, planet toryboy wise. BBC r4 World at One is ferocious toryboy propaganda territory and they;re running a thing this week about how legalising homosexuality late 60’s UK, changed lives.

      Today they gave almost a whole show to Lord Brown, ex BP ceo, and Tony Bliar close associate, who basically looted their chunk of the North Sea, using it to build the worlds largest, most profitable and most polluting oil co the world has ever seen, building the great UK pension funds and getting filthy rich himself.

      Beeb gimps let Lord Brown sell himself as a fine up standing chappy but if youre wondering why the UK has no state pension funds like Norway, its down to toryboys like Brown, not just guys like Bliar and Crash Gordo.

      Lord Brown’s psychopath toryboy biz triumphs, his spectacular greed aside, cost a lot of people their lives, in Texas for example, on his not Scots North Sea installations, aswell as nearly destroying the gulf of Mexico. High prices to pay for giant private UK pensions.

      Lord Brown came crashing down by his own court room perjury, rent boys are his thing, paying them lots of money, lots of BP money, allegedly, cant mind if its true, its only money.

      Beed gimps at r4 have no interest in any of this ofcourse, Lord Brown is a tory god. If you’ve got a £2+ million pension, he is.

      http://www.nbcnews.com/id/18442093/ns/business-world_business/t/bp-boss-fall-due-lie-or-homophobia/#.WO-YR4jyvIU

      “Browne also led attempts to fashion BP as an environmentally friendly oil company, masterminding its logo change from a shield to a flowerlike sunburst design with the slogan “Beyond Petroleum.”

    94. Pete says:

      I think this matter needs to be clarified by the SG as, for people like myself, I want to be certain that my state pension, albeit small, is safe in a new and untested nation.
      This is huge!!!!

    95. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      In regards to @Ian Brotherhood says at 3:00 pm

      “Ruth’s latest on the R*** clause, …..truly unbelievable stuff.”

      Unfortunately IB a Political Leader making such a statement in 21st Century Scotland should be unbelievable but this isn’t.

      It is what you come to expect from tRuthless and Unionist Politicians in particular.

      I fully believe this is as a result of never being challenged by a compliant media.

      tRuthless knows this comment (which is 100% Trolling) will either not be widely reported by the MSM/BBC etc. or reported SNPBaad Stylee showing her in a good light.

      Strangely though tRuthless gives us an entirely accurate argument for Indy Scotland.

      Scots Gov wouldn’t have to mitigate these kinds of policies if we were free from Westminster imposing them in the first place 🙂

      More tellingly it also shows that the “No Surrender to Referendums Party” don’t give a shit about local service provision and these Local Elections are now an all or nothing ‘plebiscite’ on a 2nd IndyRef.

      True to form the Blue/Red/Yellow Tories prioritise as usual are:

      1. Their Precious Union

      2. Their Party

      3. Their own place at the trough

      4. The Scottish Electorate

    96. Mike Fenwick says:

      @ Rev Stuart … everyone who follows you knows how meticuluous you are in establishing facts.

      Tomorrow I am attending a meeting of Pensioners for Independence in Glasgow, and I will take with me papers which I hope to discuss with those attending and which I believe may offer definitive evidence of the factual position re state pension entitlement post independence. It is more complicated than many believe, and it is not something that any of us can afford to misunderstand, or get wrong.

      So my request – Would you be willing to accept an e-mail from me to which I will attach the evidence and links to which I refer? They are wholly fact based, the evidence is drawn from the DWP, the EU, the House of Lords, and the House of Commons Library amongst others – they are not simply opinions. It would allow you to form a judgement and thereafter offer your views to all those who I know place trust in your judgement.

    97. Dr Jim says:

      Spain’s full of British pensioners many of whom take up Spanish citizenship for the extra benefits
      They still get their British pension because they paid the

      Insurance premium in Britain when they worked there

    98. Thepnr says:

      A £15 billion deficit of which possibly £8-£10 billion is a UK liability for pensions.

      £4 billion of which is to cover UK debt! £3 billion of which is spent on defence.

      Fuck right off. Scotland has zero deficit and zero debt. The UK does.

    99. galamcennalath says:

      OT Every so often it’s worth remembering the 2015 Conservative Election Manifesto, page 74 ….

      “We are clear about what we want from Europe. We say: yes to the Single Market. “

      …. so much for Manifesto pledges. Always worth knowing to cast up to Tories suggesting the SNP break commitments. The SNP keep commitments, others try to stop them even where a mandate exists.

    100. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      @ Mike Fenwick says at 4:40 pm

      “Would you be willing to accept an e-mail from me to which I will attach the evidence and links to which I refer?”

      Contact The Rev via contact tab at the top of the page.

      He has published from other contributor in the past.

    101. Legerwood says:

      At the point of independence there will be broadly 3 categories of pensioners.

      Firstly, all of those who have already retired and have paid all their NI contributions to the UK Governments who have used that money over the years treating it as current income rather than investing against the day when the bill comes due and the pensions have to be paid.

      The UK Government will still be responsible for the payment of the pensions to those who are pensioners at the time of independence. The exposure of the rUK to this expense will diminish overtime through natural wastage.

      The second category contains everyone who is working and paying NI. At the time of Independence they will start paying their NI, or whatever the iSG calls it, to the Scottish Treasury via the Scottish equivalent of HMRC.

      Therefore for this category both the rUK and independent Scotland will have responsibility for paying their pension at retirement age. The ratio paid by either government will depend on the age of the person at independence. Someone of 55 will get the bulk of their pension from rUK and some from I Scotland. Whereas someone aged 25 at independence will have made the bulk of their payments to iSG but still have some with rUK.

      The third and final category are those aged 18 or below at the time of independence. All of their contributions will be made to iSG and the iSG will have sole responsibility for paying their pension. Therefore it will be 47 years after independence, assuming retirement at 65, before pensions have to be paid to that group and those coming after and the iSG will have sole responsibility for those pensions.

      It is to be hoped that any iSG will learn from the mistakes of successive UK Governments and invest at least some if not all of the revenues earmarked for pensions so that when the time comes to pay out they at least have some if not all of the cost to hand rather than relying on current revenues.

      Therefore at the time of independence the iSG will have a very low exposure to pension costs that will increase overtime. From the beginning however they will have to have mechanisms and institutions in place to deal with the revenues accruing to the pension account.

      Where there is joint exposure it will be a matter for negotiation whether the funds are transferred as a lump sum from rUK to iSG to pay the pensions for which they are responsible or whether the rUK continues to pay the pensions to individuals as they do at the moment.

    102. Bob Mack says:

      Just remember that only a few decades ago the UK government had a sizeable pension pot ,all of which was paid into by you.

      Over the past 40 years successive Chancellor’s have raided that pot to fund other things,. They money was there, and was used by the UK government. They have the liability for pension monies spent elsewhere.

      It seems logical that there will need to be a cut off date for future pension payments from England, which then become the sole responsibility of a Scottish government. This would be agreed by negotiation.

      We have ample funds for pensions in a future Scotland, and probably more than ample if we expand our economy.

    103. Sinky says:

      Flower of Scotland says:
      13 April, 2017 at 3:20 pm
      Croompenstein@2.10pm Also Robert Graham at 4.17 pm

      “I heard that too. Also he should have put the blame of PFI scandal squarely on Labour.”

      In the extended GMS interview at 8.10am or so, when John Swinney mentioned the old PPP method of finance for those schools which were built prior to the SNP coming into office he was immediately interrupted by Gary R who said this is to do with construction not finance . John Swinney then explained the different models of building between PPP and SNP Not for Profit system. However he merely mentioned “the previous administration” not LABOUR and SNP spokespersons need to spell things out for the lowest common denominator or those who just think SNP baaad.

    104. Mik Johnstone says:

      if this is the course of action/inaction westminster wants to take, is it fair to say tat westminster WOULD receive Court proceedings from Scottish Pensioners? Legally they cannot hold onto Scotlands money especially as immigrants to Spain would still get theirs ?

    105. Mike Fenwick says:

      @ Jockanese Wind Talker 4.47

      Thanks! I chose to make the specific request, partly out of common courtesy, but also so that others on here knew of the request, and that what is involved may alter what everyone understands the position to be (at the moment as can be seen in all the responses there are a wide range of opinions) – if Rev Stu will agree to accept and scrutinise the evidence – I think his eventual conclusion on its factual merits will be more likely, and more widely, accepted.

    106. Paul Miller says:

      As much as I don’t trust McDougall, his point is that the UK no longer exists when Scotland leaves. We’re not going to have the situ where English, Welsh and NI workers (rUK) are paying for pensioners in Scotland and Scotland gets off ‘Scot’ free. Of course money for paying these pensioners has never been in Scotlands gift and people have paid into a system, so the finances would have to be provided by Westminster for this to an Indy Scotland. I think this is where he’s perhaps being disingenuous.

    107. North Chiel says:

      The Scottish government have an “open goal” on pensions
      ahead of the referendum .As the pensioners vote was significant
      in 2014. This Westminster government has not only ” stolen ” 5 years
      state pension entitlement from females aged 60 , they’ve also increased the minimum
      ” contribution years” for the basic state pension from 30 years to 35 years and finally
      they are ” on a regular basis” increasing the retirement age. The Scottish government should
      guarantee a ” citizens pension” for all at an age which reflects the fact that our citizens on average
      do not live as long as individuals elsewhere in the U.K. and also undertake to raise our state
      pension to the ” European average” over time. These guarantees to our senior citizens would
      make them question their ” better together” no vote in 2014.

    108. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ali says: 13 April, 2017 at 3:05 pm:

      … “Scottish pensions are paid from Scottish taxation.
      This will continue after independence.”.

      “Which is sort of what I was trying to say”.

      Oh! We know what you are trying to say, Ali. It is just not correct in any shape or form and the evidence you have already had cited and the explanations given you are correct.

      First of all there has not ever been such a thing as Scottish taxes since the last day of April 1707. On that day the Treaty of Union stated that all tax was raised for Her Majesty’s Treasury in London.

      There is still no actually Scottish taxation. It is taxation levied by Her Majesty’s Customs & Excise.

      I’ll make that crystal clear for you. When you buy an item or a service anywhere in the United Kingdom you pay the indirect tax on it known as VAT.

      VAT is collected by whatever organisation you bought the item or service from but, for example that TV you bought from your local ASDA and paid VAT on, was not ASDA taxing you VAT it was Her Majesty’s Customs & Excise on behalf of Her Majesty’s Treasury.

      So what you are incorrectly attempting to convince us is, “Scottish Taxation”, is, as it has been since 1 May 1707, United Kingdom tax. Like ASDA the Scottish Government will collect tax on behalf of the United Kingdom Government and be allowed, by Westminster, to use it rather than send it directly to Westminster for Westminster to return some of it as part of the Scottish Block Grant.

      So, correctly, it is still United Kingdom taxation collected in Scotland and only recently a tiny bit of it is collected by Scotland but still is on behalf of Her Majesty’s Treasury.

      The fact is that people like me were either included on a parents NHS Stamp or, on earning their first wage, paying an NHS stamp on their own behalf. This NHS contribution went to Her Majesty’s Government who are contracted to provide NHS services. It is not the duty of the individual to tell the insurer where to invest the Insurance contributions of the persons insured.

      The Treasury invested the contributions in Her Majesty’s Government. Just as some insurance companies will invest in gilts, (Government Bonds).

      I don’t know who you are trying to fool, Ali, other than yourself that is.

    109. Pete says:

      With regard to UK pensioners living now in Spain, just remember that the Spanish government is not responsible because they do not have a current pool of working UK taxpayers to enable them to pay out the pensions.
      That is why it is wrong to use the example of UK retirees in Spain.
      This keeps coming back to the simple point:-
      Current pensions being paid from current taxpayers.
      I am not convinced by a lot of the arguments being put up here.
      If someone can give a definitive answer, so much the better.

    110. Robert Graham says:

      My a lot of activity regarding pensions , i imagine some sort of dual liability will be arrived at upon Independence , this could very well continue for some time , for those who have always paid into the Brittish NI system its straight forward the british exchequer will continue to pay their pension ,
      It starts to get a little more involved when some NI payments have been made into British system and now upon independence are being assumed by the New Scottish government .
      This is where negotiations and pushers of paper start earning their corn , as far as i see it its purely administrative .but i would think it would be a good idea to start thinking and therefore acting as an Independent Country by preparing to have these systems set up to hit the ground running , this of course cant be done in secret as our politically neutral civil service will spill the beans as soon as its started . Therefore expect interference from westminster , even blocking it totally .

    111. Vestas says:

      @Mike Fenwick 4:40 pm :

      “..snip..

      So my request – Would you be willing to accept an e-mail from me to which I will attach the evidence and links to which I refer?

      ..snip..”

      Use the Contact link at the top of the page. Stu does reply to that provided you give a valid email address.

      Its a better way of getting his attention.

    112. Liz Rannoch says:

      O/T kinda.

      Pleased to say that my ‘open letter’ to Ruth Davidson was actually printed in my local rag today (Dunfermline Press)in it’s entirety!

      I deliberately made no mention of politics (re: SNP) – just slagged the legislation and tories. The big hope being that some will maybe stop and have a good think and have a Eureka! moment.

    113. Robert Peffers says:

      @Famous15 says: 13 April, 2017 at 4:30 pm:

      “The Scottish Government will negotiate fair division of assets with rUK including regard to what was paid into NI.”

      What rUK would that be, Famous15?

      The United Kingdom has only two signatory Kingdoms as equally sovereign partners in a union of only two equally sovereign kingdoms.

      I cannot find the signatures of any other kingdom on either the Treaty of Union or on either of each of the only two Acts of Union passed by those two equally sovereign Kingdoms that formed the United Kingdom.

      Please could you explain for we utterly stupid sweaty socks how there can be an rUK when the only two signatory kingdoms split up?

      I’m terribly sorry that I’m too bloody stupid to understand such things. What other kingdom/s are there that will still be in union when the only two partners in the union split up?

    114. Mike Fenwick says:

      It may help if I offer one very very short example of the evidence to which I have referred – this comes from a Government Minister in the House of Lords last year:

      ” … Of course there is uncertainty about how a vote to leave the EU could impact on access to pensioner benefits for UK pensioners living in other parts of Europe. These questions would need to be answered as part of the process of negotiating the UK’s exit if there is a vote to leave. We could only consider the detail of access to pensions and benefits for people in receipt of UK state pensions who are resident in Europe as part of the process for leaving the EU….”

      So, those in Spain, or anywhere in the EU, who have been getting their state pension – Post Brexit – are now no longer guaranteed that it will continue.

      We all need the facts, the evidence, to ensure we fully understand what is involved – that is just one example of why I am asking for the involvement of Rev Stu.

    115. Vestas says:

      I honestly think this is another non-issue frankly.

      Worst case iScotland has to foot the bill because Westminster gets arsey about it all.

      So what?

      We can at least set decent levels of pension for everyone if that happens.

      Getting rid of “expenditure” attributed to Scotland like the partial costs of Trident, Crossrail, HS2 will knock out most of the increase if that happened.

      Pensions will get paid.

    116. Iain More says:

      Not totally sure what category I would fall into in relation to pensions since I have already paid up my NI Quota to get my UKOK State Pension but I have another 8 years plus to live to collect.

      I am in a position where I don’t want to PAY another penny in NI to the thieving UKOKU Canutes. Since UKOK is skint and getting more skint by the minute I fully expect the thieving UKOK Canutes to change the rules again though just to screw us again.

      I am cynically and confidently predicting that by the time younger generations of my family reach pension age there wont be a UKOK State pension and the UKOK Canutes will do everything in their power to screw Scotland when it comes to Pensions.

      I am one of those who was shafted by the increase in Pension age from 65 to 66. My sister and brother will have to be 67 to get theirs. Considering the progressive slide in the Brit Peso since I was a laddie that Pension wont be worth a piss when I come to retire.

      I have past the point where I refuse to work another day to prop up our thieving UKOK Lords and Masters, The Deil Tak Them Ah!

    117. Ken500 says:

      Spain doesn’t pay Scottish (UK) pensioners pension, it is paid into a pensioners bank account anywhere they want. What are some folk on about. There is a reciprocal health care agreement, but Spain doesn’t have such extended care. Costs are reciprocal. In Spain family or Church etc administer extended health care. OAP care. Older people stay with their relatives. A close family system. Spain is a net gainer from EU funding. Most EU countries do not engage in illegal wars, banking fraud or tax evasion. That is UK/US. Wasting taxpayers money. Destabilising the world economy.

      They have less debt in the Eurozone. Have to confirm to a less debt ration to spending. E.g. Germany is in massive surplus. Germany was not allowed to keep an army/military after 11WW. Benefited the economy. More money was spent investing in the economy. Although recently it was selling submarines to Israel funded by the US.

    118. Stoker says:

      WOS archive links for October 2013 now over on O/T.

      Go on, have a browse!
      https://www.ayemail.scot/store/

    119. Not Convinced says:

      *Technically* there is a pot of money set aside from people’s National Insurance contributions. However since said pot of money[1] is invested in the UK Government’s Debt Management Account Deposit Facility, i.e. loaned to the government, it’s all a bit smoke and mirrors really!

      [1] Well *pots* really as there are two separate “accounts”, one for Northern Ireland and one for the rest of the UK. There’s approximately £0.9Bn in the N.Ireland account and approximately £24Bn in the one for the rest of the UK. See http://tinyurl.com/mdegnsr for the relevant report from the Debt Management Office.

    120. David says:

      It’s not rocket science.
      If you paid National Insurance to the UK before you retired, then you are now a UK pensioner.
      Meaning that the UK is responsible for paying your pension money to you. For the rest of your life.

      Where you live does not matter*. If the UK doesn’t pay you, take them to court. You will win.

      *If you live in some countries, UK pension increases/rises don’t get paid to you. That, however, is the exception rather than the rule. You chose to live there, you deal with it. Or lobby your MP to change the rules.

    121. Ken500 says:

      NI from Scotland is sent to London Treasury. Then comes back. Block Grant. If you do not have contribution or equivalent. It used to affect the the total pension pay out. It is worth it for contribution. Do not stop paying or signing on to get contributions. There was talk of a standard £140 pay out. That could have stalled. There are more pensioners and they vote – pro rata.
      Pensioners can pay tax.

    122. Skip_NC says:

      Greetings from Raleigh, North Carolina. Having spent fifteen years in the USA, I spent some time looking into pension entitlements. There is a really simple form to fill in. My work record in the USA counts towards my work record in the U.K. and vice versa. I end up with one pension, paid at the higher of the two amounts. Further research leads me to conclude that the form is designed to gather the information necessary to compute each country’s share. I also get inflation rises.

      In due course, the U.K. treasury will pay half of my pension. If they can do that for me, why on earth can’t they give a clear commitment to do likewise for anyone living in Scotland?

    123. Ken500 says:

      Scotland has been subsidising the rest of the UK since 1928 and before. Manipulating the Scottish economy. Lying and keeping it secret.

    124. Mike Fenwick says:

      @ Vestas … I have now also used the contact – thanks!

      Non-issue?

      1) It is over £6bn a year – for me that is an issue we need to get our heads around particularly if the evidence shows rUK may have to pay that amount and not iScotland.

      2)Think WASPI for a second – is it a clear illustration that a Government with an overload of debt can at a whim severly and adversely affect individuals – perhaps we need to re-think entirely how we provide for state pensions?

    125. Ken500 says:

      There are no pots. The UK is in £Trn debt.

      Pension come out of general taxation. No matter what the Westminster liars say. Scotland taxpayers pay the (UK) Gov pension in Scotland £6Billion. That is a fact.

    126. call me dave says:

      Pensions again!

      Hear Ian Davidson ask that question as head of Scottish Affairs Committee in Westminster to the official responsible.

      I believe he got a gong after it was all over.
      Ian Davidson got the boot from the voters..

      The answer is YES Westminster will pay any person in Scotland all or that part of their pension contributions.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su47Cx3HiSI

    127. Albert Herring says:

      It’s simple really.

      Current situation: Taxes are raised across the UK, pensions are paid across the UK.

      Post UK break-up: Taxes are raised in England to fund pensions in England, while Taxes are raised in Scotland to fund pensions (better ones) in Scotland.

      Why should the Kingdom of England pay Scottish pensions when they do not receive Scottish taxes?

      The UK is not liable as it no longer exists.

      It’s not like going abroad.

    128. Pete says:

      Skip, your argument falls because, on independence the Ruk does not have tax receipts from around 5million Scottish citizens who are now paying tax to a new country.
      Current taxation pays current pensions!!!!
      Morag explained the principle a few hours ago.

    129. mike cassidy says:

      For those who thought saliva spray was the worst that could come out of Davidson’s mouth.

      http://archive.is/ttnVq

    130. Vestas says:

      @Mike Fenwick 5:43 pm :

      “Non-issue?

      1) It is over £6bn a year – for me that is an issue we need to get our heads around particularly if the evidence shows rUK may have to pay that amount and not iScotland.”

      Ideally England (I’m not calling it rUK, sorry Welsh readers) will foot the bill.

      If they don’t then so what? People think we’re going to just say “find the nearest foodbank”?

      I’d rather spend £6bn on that than (around) £6bn on the items I listed before.

      We need a rethink alright, one which ringfences the money. Forever.

      That shouldn’t be a problem because I don’t see Scotland having to raid it for wars or for when moneylaundering/rigging interest rates/poncing for the world goes titsup. Again.

      Stu should get back to you within a day or so IME.

    131. stewartb says:

      Legerwood @4.47pm

      Well written – a clear, logical description of a ‘just’ post-indy system for: (i) meeting historic UK state commitments to those already retired; (ii) handling an extended transitional period involving a combination of new Scottish and historic UK state obligations; and (iii) acknowledging indy Scotland’s 100% obligation to future new entrants to the labour market.

      It seems right NOT TO CONFLATE: (a) the UK state’s ongoing OBLIGATIONS to those that have already contributed financially through the UK NIC system up to the date of independence in return for a pension entitlement; with (b) how successive Westminster governments of the UK state have CHOSEN TO FINANCE its pension obligations.

      (If I enter into a contractual obligation to make future payments to a third party, the latter is concerned that I will meet my obligations not how I choose to finance them!)

      And I’m sure you’re also right, that for reasons of efficiency and economy, there may well be ‘deals’ done over pensions during negotiations in the run up to independence day but the principles you set out will underpin these.

    132. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Pardon me for being cynical, but, when you see the utter, pathetic hypocrisy of Ruth the Mooth’s response to all the criticism she has had in the row over the “Ruth Clause” – calling on the SNP to use its powers to mitigate the effects, you have to wonder, as well as at her four-faced hypocrisy – two-faced doesn’t even begin to cover it – what else are they trying to slip through.

      This latest welfare act is a terrible piece of vindictive Tory legislation, but, all the furore has been over this single clause.

      I reckon, the Tories knew when they put this clause into the bill, it would attract all the attention. We should ask oursleves, what else have we missed and why are they so keen to concentrate our attention on this single issue?

      Davidson, by the way, is now showing her true colours. Her only support now is coming from the dead tree scrolls on The Scotsman and Herald btl comments.

      I reckon she has so-badly misjudged this one, she is now a dead politician walking. When Scotland goes, no constituency in England will entertain the person who lost them the Jocks.

    133. Bill McLean says:

      Albert – with respect I think you are missing the point. When Scotland becomes independent the rUK Revenue & Customs will pay pensions to those in Scotland who have contributed via NI up to the amount of pension fund they have bought in the UK system. Once that point is reached the pension will stop. This is not unfair but part of the contract entered into by UK Govt and the worker.
      HMRC acknowledged such in a letter which was posted by the Rev prior to the 2014 Referendum.

    134. Famous15 says:

      @Robert Peffers your tone annoys others now you annoy me. I distrust your motives.

      I simply used the much used rUK for simpler understanding. I will accept any legal name for the the other state that remains after Scotand leaves the United Kingdom etc.

      Reread the White Paper issued by the Scottish Government prior to the 2014 referendum.

    135. heedtracker says:

      “I reckon, the Tories knew when they put this clause into the bill, it would attract all the attention. We should ask oursleves, what else have we missed and why are they so keen to concentrate our attention on this single issue?”

      You only get tax credit for two children now. Bombs not bairns, its the psychopath tory way you see.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39441970

      Toryboy propagandists tuck it away at no.6. Note how IFS slithers around in tory propaganda too.

      From 6 April there will be cuts to future child tax credits. Where a first child is born after this date, claimants will no longer receive the family element of the payment, worth £545 a year.
      Those whose first child was born before 6 April will see no change.
      In addition, those who have a third or subsequent child after this date will no longer receive a payment for that child – limiting future tax credits to two children only.
      The same will apply to people claiming universal credit. The Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) calculates that as a result of this change alone, 600,000 three-child families will on average be £2,500 worse off than under the old system.
      But in practice no existing parent, and no existing claimant, will actually lose money.

    136. Pete says:

      Albert is correct.
      The rest are living in cloud cuckoo land.

    137. Brian Powell says:

      Socrates MacSporran

      Davidson and other Tories feel they can say theses things because the press and Slab are their bitches. Nothing is going to come from them.

      And they may feel confident that no matter what they do there are 30% of Scots who will support the Union no matter what and another group who shit themselves at the sight of their own shadows.

    138. Valerie says:

      No wonder I post less on here.

      New batch of trolls posting shite, with intention of depressing and hoping their crap gains traction.

    139. galamcennalath says:

      Pensions. Don’t forget guys, at the moment pensions in Scotland are being paid out of taxes collected in Scotland and cycled via the Treasury. We already pay the pensions of older Scots!

      Apart from the last few years, Scotland has been a net contributor to the Treasury with spending versus taxes, for decades.

      We pay our way, on average, and don’t imagine nor believe otherwise.

      On Indy there will be negotiations about ongoing liabilities including pensions and debt. I doubt if WM will play ball, but who cares, like the current EU negotiations it won’t be WM which holds all the cards.

    140. Legerwood says:

      stewartb @ 5.54

      Thank you. It seems logical to me that there should be a broad framework and the detail worked out by negotiation.

      It also seemed that some people were muddying the waters for whatever reason.

    141. sarah says:

      @Valerie 6.25 Don’t let them stop you posting, Valerie – they will have won if you do. If we all followed the Rev’s guidance [as Thepnr, I think, has been reminding us] to ignore trolls or similar they would disappear.

    142. Dan Huil says:

      Westminster has stated that legally the Westminster Government are liable for all NHS pension payments no matter where the pensioner chooses to reside.

      Also, what Bill McLean says. 6:07pm

    143. Thepnr says:

      I remember as a very wee buy my granny buying me savings stamps from the post office. I had this wee book and every week the amount in it grew by 2 shilling.

      The money was “spending money” for going on holiday with my granny and that would be Leven, Arbroath or Rothesay.

      It was exciting to cash that book in as I’d never seen so much money and the Post Office handed me the cash when I handed them the stamps. I had trusted them to look after my cash, they gave me stamps in a book and when I wanted it they gave me the cash.

      Now National Insurance used to be called in Scotland at least “paying the stamp”, you were paying specifically for the NHS and your pension rights when you retired.

      That money wasn’t supposed to be spent it was in the UK Treasuries hands to look after on your behalf until you wanted it back.

      It is my money that the UK Treasury has and I want it back whether Scotland is Independent or not. They took it from me with a promise that it would keep me well. I expect them to uphold that promise.

      The won’t squirm off this hook very easily and we shouldn’t let them.

    144. Famous15 says:

      Ruth Davidson is shameless.

      She brazenly says the Scottish Government should mitigate the effects of their wickedness.

      Say no to mitigation as The Tories would bankrupt Scotland.

    145. David says:

      Pate and Albert?
      Pete and Dud!

      Both of you spreading disinformation on here.
      As you should know:
      Pensions paid out now by UK are the result of decades of contributions paid in to the UK by people in the past.
      The current, and continuing, UK obligation to pay rests on the past NI payments received by UK.

      If the UK successor state, call it rUK, or Remnant Kingdom, or Poundland, tries to renege on these pension liabilities, it will be crushed in court.

    146. Robert Louis says:

      I really thought we had seen the lowest of the low, the scummiest of the scummiest, the worst of the worst from Tories, but NO. Today RUTH DAVIDSON let her true persona loose. Gone is the happy fake smiley, ‘nice’ Tory facade, and we see that in reality she is one seriously nasty, careerist, low life individual, if ever their was one.

      I am seriously sickened at her behaviour regarding the rape clause. Not only does she wholeheartedly support the rape clause, but today, she stated that it is the fault of the Scottish Government who could mitigate against it, if they wanted to. That’s right, Tory RUTH DAVIDSON wants Scottish taxpayers to effectively pay to mitigate against the cruel and despicable rape clause introduced by her own TORY boss.

      Scoring political points and playing games from the suffering of women who have been raped. Is RUTH DAVIDSON even human?? Does she have one shred of decency? Really?

      Words fail me, they really do. Even if you are right wing, or previously voted Tory, you should not vote Tory whilst RUTH DAVIDSON stays in her post. She should resign.

    147. Rock says:

      “It certainly didn’t say anything about “with the sole exception of if they happen to live in Scotland”, but maybe there just wasn’t enough room.”

      Must have been in the small print.

    148. One_Scot says:

      I seriously cannot believe Ruth Davidson’s defence of her Tory party’s Rape Clause. To try and put the blame on the SNP is absolutely mind boggling.

      I am genuinely now of the opinion that her mind may well be in a bad place from her hatred towards the SNP. It is almost as if she has been desensitised to how abhorrent her language is.

    149. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Valerie (6.25) –

      Know the feeling pal, know it well.

      Please don’t let these cowards scunner ye away.

      😉

    150. Rock says:

      Since Robert Peffers brought me into a post that had nothing to do with me, let me point out that not only is Robert Peffers an aggressive verbal bully, he is on the record for racist and homophobic comments.

      This is how he displayed unbelievable arrogance and sneering against half of the Scottish electorate:

      Robert Peffers,

      “Most Scottish unionists are so confused by voting that asking them to pick up a pencil and mark a ballot paper has them confused as to which end of the pencil makes the mark on the paper.”

    151. Lenny Hartley says:

      Re pensions , see letter received by pensioner worried he would lose his pension if there was a Yes vote.
      This is the UK Works and pension dept official position, any crap by Pete et al is just that Crap
      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-pensioner-jackpot/

    152. Rock says:

      Why hasn’t Robert Peffers, Scotland’s greatest legal and historical expert of all time, not written a book on the subject?

      Is it out of fear that he would be prosecuted for plagiarism?

    153. North chiel says:

      Ruth Davidson doesn’t have a ” brass neck” but a ” tungsten carbide ” neck
      to suggest that the Scottish government should use funds to
      mitigate the cuts in tax credit being imposed by the Westminster
      Tory cabal , masquerading as ” a UK government” .Now totally exposed
      as a ” parrot” sitting on Teresa May’s shoulder.

    154. Thepnr says:

      @Lenny Hartley

      Well said, put that in yer pipe and smoke it Unionists trolls.

    155. jfngw says:

      Davidson mutterings would seem to be advocating independence as she believes Holyrood should mitigate WM policies, hence making Scotland more different from her beloved UK. Why not go the whole hog and mitigate every WM policy by making all policies in Holyrood.

      Whatever happened to those wide UK shoulders?

    156. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ken500 says: 13 April, 2017 at 5:38 pm:

      “Pensioners can pay tax.

      Factually Ken500, all pensioners pay tax. The main taxation now is indirect taxation and almost everything a pensioner buys, either goods or services, carries VAT and/or duty.

      For example:- a pensioner uses a bus pass and part of the payment made to the bus company by the SG to cover that bus pass carries VAT and Road Fuel duty by the Bus company. So just about everything these days carries indirect taxation and everyone pays it.

    157. starlaw says:

      north chiel 7.06
      You stole my thunder I was about to suggest Rooth weighs her neck in at Daltons the scrappies

    158. mike d says:

      What defines a proud scotbut?. ‘Always be happy for your handout,and all you have to do is love your master unconditionally.

    159. Albert Herring says:

      @David

      Oh right, disinformation like the following from “Scotland’s Future”?

      172. Will pension rights already accrued be protected in an independent Scotland?

      Yes. Accrued pension rights will be protected in an independent Scotland. Our plans are as follows:
      ? for those people living and working in Scotland at the time of independence, the UK pension entitlement they have accrued prior to independence will become their Scottish State Pension entitlement
      ? any pension entitlement accrued in Scotland after independence will also form part of that Scottish State Pension
      ? on retirement, the Scottish State Pension will be paid by the Scottish Government

    160. heedtracker says:

      Is it out of fear that he would be prosecuted for plagiarism?

      Give it up Rock. Do you mind Greenwald’s stuff about

      “Among the core self-identified purposes of [GCHQ’s previously secret unit] JTRIG are two tactics: (1) to inject all sorts of false material onto the internet in order to destroy the reputation of its targets; and (2) to use social sciences and other techniques to manipulate online discourse and activism to generate outcomes it considers desirable.”

      So tell us about your SNP MP Rock, how are they doing, are they making an impact locally, do they get coverage locally or are they blacked out The Guardian style?

      This is my SNP MP Rock, he went to my old school too. He’s very good, future Scottish Prime Minister, but there are so many great candidates now.

      http://www.parliament.uk/biographies/commons/callum-mccaig/4364

      Be great to hear all your non Mr Peffers bad stuff RocK:D

    161. Breeks says:

      I don’t really know my way around pensions, so pardon the blunt question.

      If a Scottish taxpayer has payed tax and National Insurance all his working life, then suddenly becomes a Scottish citizen rather than a UK subject, doesn’t it seem logical that the body UK, that is the Treasury, has an obligation to honour the terms of the pension, or else compensate the pensioner for all his years of contributions which the Treasury is refusing to honour? It is a type of contract after all.

      It doesn’t matter if there isn’t a pension pot. That’s the Westminster’s Treasury’s problem, not the pensioner’s. It doesn’t excuse or reduce the Treasuries liability to honour the contributions paid to them.

      There is a way round it, IF the new Scottish Treasury takes some liability to shoulder Scottish pensions retrospectively, and I suppose it could, then surely it’s the same scenario as debt; if you inherit a share of the debt, you inherit a share of the assets. If Scotland inherits a liability from the UK for pensions, then there is surely a reciprocal obligation to either a share of the UK pension pot, (obvious problem with that of course), or the UK honours its liability in some other way.

      (Does that sound a little familiar? Pay your €50 billion bill or the EU Brexit negotiations don’t start).

      I rather suspect that the 18 month period predicted between the 2014 referendum and actual Independence Day was the period of time and opportunity for such things to be discussed and an amicable solution reached. Same as for debt, same as for military, same as for CD collection, the car, and the dog. The assets of the household need to be split by agreement or legal edict, but they will be split.

      To agitate trouble over pensions, as Unionists are prone to do, starts with the presumption that HM Treasury would be bloody minded and uncooperative with pensions, which may or may not be the case. However the Treasury would be facing reciprocal consequences elsewhere if it did take that position; not least its International reputation, but also any future Trade Deals with the EU which of course, an Independent Scotland with a pensions grievance could veto.

      Before the Unionists insist on playing hard ball, they better be aware that a sovereign Scotland will be in a position to play hardball too, especially as a full member of the EU.

      I’ve said it before, repeatedly, that England can by all means object to Scotland’s independence, that is their prerogative, but they better start being rational and measured in their language because they have a great to gain from a constructive and amicable dissolution of the Union rather than an acrimonious decent into near anarchy. They might find the option of Scottish Independence objectionable, but it’s a credible scenario which might quickly become very real.

      To be honest however, when you see the UK’s attitude and diligence in handling Brexit negotiations, then just like the EU has a two year cut off period after the triggering of Article 50, our own Scottish negotiators discussing the dissolution of the Union should indeed be preparing contingencies for a “no deal – hard exit ” from the UK. If the Westminster government is determined to be difficult and obstructive, then the Scottish government will simply have to reciprocate.

      It’s the old adage, hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. We may not get everything we want or are entitled to, but a deal will be done.

      Does an Independent Scotland have a credible contingency if the UK Treasury IS unreasonable and doesn’t honour Scottish pensions? Starting out fresh with zero debt, wealthy friends in Europe, and loads of oil, I feel rather sure that it does.

      Don’t pay our pensioners Theresa, well fine. Jolly good luck with EU trade deal after Brexit, and of course buying your power and water from our EU partners, the French. Oh no, not the French. Maybe the Irish. Ah. Hmmm. Maybe not the Irish. Belgium? Netherlands? Or there’s the Spanish of course. You know… The Spanish, where all your “other” EU pensioners live, down near Gibraltar.

    162. Thepnr says:

      A proud scotbut is someone with no shame or compassion for their fellow Scots plight under this Tory government.

      No they are proud all right, proud of their wealth or their business or their land that they own. They are real Scots of course but the cringe is in their blood.

      They look to the likes of the Tory party to ensure that nothing changes. No matter how proud they might be they are actually a disgrace to every Scot. We deserve better though though will deny us that to protect their own interests.

      I think they are about to have a wake up call with a second Independence Referendum on the horizon. What is it they fear? I can only imagine that somehow their standing will be diminished in the eyes of the rest of the UK.

      I really wouldn’t worry about that as after Scotland becomes Independent our status as a Nation will be rising in the eyes of the rest of the world and only the UK will be diminished.

      Hence smell the fear and the desperation. No slacking, we are winning.

    163. frogesque says:

      Pensions: just remember this is a SLab snarky troublemaking exercise. What SLab says has bugger all consequences, they aren’t even taken seriously in their own decrepit party.

    164. Meg merrilees says:

      Anyone manage to see the “Ruth clause “demonstration on the George Square webcam?
      I couldn’t find the page but the website had lovely live views of Pacific Quay ok, no problem with that one!

      Link for the Glasgow Council website didn’t work!

      BBC Scotland managed to make it look like there were about 5 people there. Truthless says you don’t have to fill out any form, a third person will deal with it all for you – Ha Ha! and that the S. Gov has the powers to offset the Tory cuts so that’s all ok then. NOT!

      So the poor women in England Wales and N. Ireland will have to put up with being humiliated because it’s all ok for the tories to humiliate them. This is a law being passed by a female PM – Disgraceful! The tories really are scraping the bottom of the barrel now.

    165. gus1940 says:

      Now that the Unionist parties and their media fan club have resurrected that hoary old chestnut the lie that pensioners would cease to receive their pensions when we win Independence surely it is time to clarify this matter once and for all.

      Can I suggest that the means to achieve said clarification is for the SNP to draft very carefully a question for Angus Robertson to direct at May after the recess.

      He should ask for a clear answer as to what will happen to the pensions paid to existing pensioners and what will the situation be for those still working as to the part to be paid by WM and the part to be paid by Holyrood subsequent to Independence.

      Given May’s long demonstrated penchant for avoiding a straight answer or not answering at all great care must be taken when drafting the question so that she will be compelled to answer unambiguously with no ifs and buts.

      If Angus manages to get a clear unambiguous answer from May it should settle the matter once and for all and if any of the Guys In The Black Hats try to raise the scare story again it can be nailed promptly by quoting May’s statement.

    166. North chiel says:

      Agree entirely with ” Breeks” @ 0743pm, however don’t forget additionally
      any possible request for ” transitional arrangements over trident” .

    167. Robert Peffers says:

      @Famous15 says: 13 April, 2017 at 6:13 pm:

      “@Robert Peffers your tone annoys others now you annoy me. I distrust your motives.”

      Aye! Well get this, Famous15. Your tone annoys me and it annoys anyone else that has a couple of brain cells to rub together.

      Why the hell you keep propagating the Westminster Propaganda throws a bloody site more suspicion upon you than it does me. Are you really going to attempt to defend using the insult to Scots and Scotland that the Kingdom of Scotland is inferior to the Kingdom of England>

      That is exactly what claiming Scotland leaving the Union and the Union will continue as an rUK is. It is propagating the Yoon myth that they are the United Kingdoms and Scotland is leaving the United Kingdom

      The United Kingdom is a bipartite Union. If a partner in a bipartite union decides the union is over then there isn’t a union any more.

      “I simply used the much used rUK for simpler understanding.”

      Only problem is that it does NOT lead to simpler understanding it distorts the truth and enhances the Westminster claims.

      The plain truth is that when Westminster introduced devolution they were in fact dissolving the United Kingdom as the very name United Kingdom tells you that it is a Union of Kingdoms and was made so by the 1707 Treaty of Union. The truth is that the 1707 Kingdom of England that signed that Treaty had then, and still has today, two Dominions.

      These Dominions are actually mentioned in the preamble of the Treaty of Union. They are Wales, an English Principality since, “The Statute of Rhuddlan”, of 1284 The other is Ireland that became an English Province in 1542, by, “The Crown of Ireland Act. There has never been any other kingdom in the United Kingdom. Ergo, when the only two kingdoms in the union part company the Union is ended.

      ” … I will accept any legal name for the other state that remains after Scotand leaves the United Kingdom etc.”

      It isn’t up to you whether you accept any other, “Legal”, name, in the first place there isn’t any other, “legal”, name.

      The legal, “Status Quo Ante”, in a bipartite agreement that ends is exactly what, “Status Quo Ante”, means. It means the parties return to their status as before they united. The parties may decide after the part to be known by a different title but there is no remaining part when a two partner union of equals ends. It would be like a wife divorcing her husband and the law saying that while she was no longer married to the husband he was still married to her.

      “Reread the White Paper issued by the Scottish Government prior to the 2014 referendum.”

      Why? No matter what it says the simple fact is there cannot be a remainder United Kingdom if the two kingdoms split up. It simply cannot still be a United Kingdom when only one kingdom remains. If fact Scotland would be as much a rUK as England. BTW: it doesn’t matter which Kingdom leaves they would not be leaving the united kingdom they would be leaving their partner in the United Kingdom.

      Just because Westminster makes a claim about something or other does not make it fact. As is quite obvious the statement made by Mundell is idiotic but it is what Westminster is claiming.

      “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as, “The United Kingdom”

      This is crazy on so many different ways. First of all there is nothing like it in the treaty nor in either act of union. Secondly before the union began the Kingdom of England Parliament dissolved itself and thus no longer existed. The United Kingdom did not begin until the two kingdoms sat as a United Kingdom Parliameny but most laughable of all – How come, if the Kingdom of England was renamed as the United Kingdom in 1707 does England still exist today and can impose EVEL upon a United Kingdom Parliament that has three devolved parliaments but no Parliament of England?

    168. James Barr Gardner says:

      Thepnr says:
      13 April, 2017 at 6:36 pm
      I remember as a very wee buy my granny buying me savings stamps from the post office. I had this wee book and every week the amount in it grew by 2 shilling.

      I too remember those stamps and wee books, I always said that’s what helped me to learn how to budget money, a good lesson in life.

      Later, on as a young teenager my girlfriend’s mother (big house, tory,noblesse oblige) used go down to the adjacent wee village and chap doors on a Friday night selling PO stamps to the villagers.
      Years later one the village women worked alongside my mother and confirmed the story, but her own story was a cracker! She used to buy a £5s worth every week, the toff always used ask her are you sure you can afford it?
      Aye well, not really but she always cashed them on the Monday morning in Glasgow near where she worked anyway, she said the 5 mins of effort was worth it, nothing like having a good laugh on a Friday night to start off the weekend.

      Soon Scotland will have that laugh to start our Independence

      Nothing beats Scottish humour, especially dry, Lex McLean style.

    169. Thepnr says:

      @Breeks

      Great post and well said. A Scotland unshackled from the Westminster way of government will be something to behold.

      Not there yet, but I suspect it won’t be long. We stick in and fight all the harder to defeat their nonsense.

    170. Rock says:

      heedtracker,

      “Be great to hear all your non Mr Peffers bad stuff RocK:D”

      What have you got to say about this:

      Robert Peffers,

      “Aye! Well get this, Famous15. Your tone annoys me and it annoys anyone else that has a couple of brain cells to rub together.”

      Have you got “a couple of brain cells to rub together”, heedtracker?

      How does it feel to be a total sycophant?

    171. Famous15 says:

      @Robert Peffers.

      I am prepared to accept what you say but please never volunteer to canvass door to door to get converts to independence. I suggest an anger management course instead.

      Oh dear,it reminds me of my SNP branch in the fifties. All these fundamentalist Scots with beards and kilts and “accurate” history. Down Whiteinch life was too tough for such perfection. Hope never to see these days return,so Robert have a llok in the mirror and ask would you convert to independence if you were the “salesman”?

    172. Rock says:

      Rock says:
      12 April, 2017 at 6:32 pm

      “Any self respecting people would want to be independent of a coloniser at any cost.

      Unfortunately there are too many selfish middle class Scots who would rather live under colonial rule than perhaps suffer a small drop in income which would benefit those less well off then themselves.

      Proud Scots, but— are a disgrace to Scotland.”

      Thepnr says:
      13 April, 2017 at 7:45 pm

      “A proud scotbut is someone with no shame or compassion for their fellow Scots plight under this Tory government.

      No they are proud all right, proud of their wealth or their business or their land that they own. They are real Scots of course but the cringe is in their blood.”

      No doubt Robert Peffers will call you “bloody stupid” for making a “Rock-like claim”:

      Robert Peffers says:
      13 April, 2017 at 2:34 pm

      “Oh! Dear! Here we go with the Rock-like claim”

      Robert Peffers says (to Thepnr):
      27 March, 2017 at 7:40 pm

      “Oh! For the Heaven’s sake stop being so bloody stupid. First of all you are not the person who decides what the purpose of the Rev Stu’s blog is. That’s the Rev Stu’s choice to make. Secondly you probably wouldn’t recognise a real Troll if it was chewing on your ear.”

    173. DerekM says:

      If there is no UK to pay pensions to Scots then who will pay the English pensioners hmmm?

      And do not say England because there is no English pension either it is a UK pension.

      Maybe you should be asking why the UK government no longer has this money that is yours.

      When this busts open it will make fat Maxwell look like a petty crook.

      Funny how it is only the Scots who will be affected by this.

    174. sassenach says:

      Robert Peffers @ 7-59pm

      Excellent post, and why ‘Famous 15 ‘ has such trouble understanding it, I do not know…… (or do I??).

      Keep up the good work young man (including putting people right in whatever way you see fit!!).

    175. BJ says:

      Robert Peffers@7:59

      Robert I enjoy all your posts. Please keep on doing what you’re doing. Thank you.

    176. Thepnr says:

      I no longer address trolls but tonight I’ll make an exception.

      @Rock Phaaarrrp

      Pardon me.

    177. MJT says:

      @ Valerie

      I don’t read all the comments BTL – but i click just about all your links and you do a great job. So please keep posting.

      Some folk write gold and post gold and I’ve learned a lot, so dinnae be deterred.

      Smart folks can spot a daftie. The people who post pish stand out as pish posters.

      Was at George Square for the demo, good turn out and everyone spoke really well. lots of media and cameras an aw. I think i can say with 100% certainty that an independent Scottish parliament would never conceive of, never mind push through anything as nasty as this two child cap, and R&$% clause.

    178. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Rock, you on shift for ‘the judge’ tonight?

      I’m assuming the £1 for every 10 words you’re obviously getting fae Tuba Boy and the Better Together Team is piling up nicely what with the cut’n’paste quotes you’ve become so fond of lately.

      You never post anything we can use on the doorsteps, in the pub, in the works canteen to help convert Nos to Yes, Rock.

      Just puerile, pedantic attacks.

      I note your usual target of choice’The National’ has had some pretty good stuff recently (on front page) tRuthless rape clause and published Prof Richard Murphy today following his debate with K***n H***E.

      That why you targeting Wingers?

      You’ve nothing to say Rock and you are using too many words to say it.

    179. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Rock, you on shift for ‘the judge’ tonight?

      I’m assuming the £1 for every 10 words you’re obviously getting fae Tuba Boy and the Better Together Team is piling up nicely what with the cut’n’paste quotes you’ve become so fond of lately.

      You never post anything we can use on the doorsteps, in the pub, in the works canteen to help convert Nos to Yes, Rock.

      Just puerile, pedantic attacks.

      I note your usual target of choice’The National’ has had some pretty good stuff recently (on front page) regarding tRuthless and published Prof Richard Murphy today following his debate with K***n H***E.

      That why you targeting Wingers?

      You’ve nothing to say Rock and you are typing too many characters to say it.

    180. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Posts not appearing tonight so appologies if double or treble posts appear later 🙁

    181. Pete says:

      All Albert and myself are saying is that a newly independent Scotland will be liable for paying Scottish pensioners.
      If what you are saying about GERS is rubbish then no problem.
      If you are wrong, then there will be a big problem.
      All you have to do is convince pensioners that things will continue as per usual.
      What is needed iis detailed financial analysis of how Scotland can finance itself as being independent.
      Don’t count on Trident as that is petty cash on a yearly basis.

    182. heedtracker says:

      How does it feel to be a total sycophant?

      Its lovely, hey Rock what’s your theory why UK state pension is the lowest in the OECD, and that’s after three terms of Crash Gordo’s right to reign over us too?

      Beeb attack propaganda gimps say its the least generous Rock. Must use that kind of Beeb gimpery in actual life.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34975171

      The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) said that only two OECD countries pay poorer pensions.
      Those countries are Mexico and Chile”

      Its probably why we do have discussions in teamGB these days, like is it even worth bothering with.

      Another Crash Gordo legacy. He’s loaded though.

    183. frogesque says:

      @ Robert Peffers.

      Have used some of your detailed knowledge elsewhere. Good to feel I am on safe ground arguing a case with a solid background.

      The history and legal stuff is important as is your inside knowledge of ‘Mummy’ Yard and your tales.

      YES is multi faceted and needs many different angles to convert NOs. Its all good and if anyone feels they don’t need the depth but can convert with a different approach say on the younger elements then that is also good.

      Approaching 70 myself, I’m able to approach some of the older farts like me. A difficult section but if only one can be persuaded then its worth it. So thanks for your help in educating me so that I can feel confident talking to others.

      Other approaches to other sections will work as well as I’ve said. The important thing is that we all try our best.

    184. Albert Herring says:

      @Pete

      What I’m saying is that Scottish taxpayers are already paying for Scottish pensions, and we don’t need any subs from London.

      This was clearly set out in “Scotland’s Future”

      All this stuff about “I’ve paid into the system and I want my money back” is rubbish as that money has already been spent on past pensions.

    185. Thepnr says:

      Best article for ages. SMELL THE FEAR!!

      They’ve gone into panic mode now LOL and I’m luvin it.

    186. CameronB Brodie says:

      Back on topic, Blair McDougall clearly lacks any sense of social responsibility and apparently struggles with human empathy.

      I suspect he was dipped in the Yoonstream at birth. Or perhaps he simply has a mortgage he can’t afford otherwise? Vile, frankly!

    187. caz m says:

      Have the Tories got a nice name for their hated R*pe Clause?

      Just like the nice name they gave to the Bedroom Tax, they called that the Spare Room Subsidy.

      The Tories must think that the nicer the name, the less painful the reduction in your money will be.

      Get us out of this stinkin Union.

    188. heedtracker says:

      Hey Rock that beeb creep out on state pension ends

      Better off

      However, when private and workplace pensions are taken into account, the UK scores much better.

      Based on average salaries, the UK comes 15th out of 34 OECD countries for generosity.

      The UK’s replacement rate for all types of pension is 71.1 – in other words retirees earn 71% of their previous incomes, after tax.
      In this respect, pensioners in the UK are better off than their peers in France (67.7) and Germany (64.7).

      Why is it Rock, do you think, that the UK pays such a shite state pension, yet private ones are rather good, very good really, up there with the best of them? Crash Gordo never says, but then he’s never asked, certainly not by any beeb propaganda gimp. Although Crash Gordo’s biggest trick is frightening the life out of pensioners in Scotland too.

      We know how the vast riches of NOT Scots oil and gas have been extracted, funnelled out and over Scotland, directly into the big City pension funds, which are really massive, up there with the biggest hedge funds.

      So Rock, is the kind of UKOK socio economic looting and pillaging of our natural resources, which do technically belong to everyone, actually fair, or even the most effective spends of our natural resources, broke pensioners on the lowest pension in the OECD are not exactly savers, save or eat, save or keep warm, save or have drink etc?

      Is there perhaps some other means of wealth distribution, directly to the poorest pensioners Rock?

      Love to hear you views Rock?!

    189. Meg merrilees says:

      MJT

      Thanks for the update on George Square tonight. Well done all those people for standing up for their beliefs and you for attending. Thankyou.

    190. frogesque says:

      @pete & albert

      The post Brexit Kingdom of England may well try to hang out Scottish pensioners to dry after a YES Indy vote. Wouldn’t put anything past Westminster. We are second class after all.

      They may also try to steal our oil and fish as well but we pensioners are made of tough stuff and there is nothing so dangerous as a man with nothing to loose. Let them do their worst.

    191. caz m says:

      I hope the George Sq demo went well tonight for all who attended.

      Are you listening Ruthie. The people are talking to you hen.

      And Ruthie has the cheek to tell the Scottish Government to mitigate these charges in Scotland out of our already shrinking budget.

      Take a hike Ruthie.

    192. Marker Post says:

      All of the above on pensions is moot, because Labour will not be in a position to pledge anything for the next 20 years.

    193. Dr Jim says:

      Isn’t it about time these trolls answered questions on their own beloved Great Britain Kingdom of England and it’s survival without Scotland and Europe instead of asking us to prove stuff over and over again that they obviously don’t want to hear anyway

      How about this one, what does Brexit mean?
      Any shower of nitwits who fell for Theresa Mays answer deserves all they get
      What they don’t get to do is have the cheek to ask anybody else questions on anything when they didn’t get an answer to that one, and still have’nt

      Deary me!

    194. DerekM says:

      All you have to do is convince pensioners that things will continue as per usual

      I shall correct this for you Pete old chap.

      All we have to do is convince pensioners that things will continue as per usual.

      Nope disagree i say we go full British on this one and bribe their sad old asses with a better pension.

    195. Robert Peffers says:

      @Famous15 says: 13 April, 2017 at 8:19 pm:

      “I am prepared to accept what you say but please never volunteer to canvass door to door to get converts to independence.”

      Wee bit of advice, Famous15 never, ever, jump to conclusions without good evidence to back up your conclusions.

      I’ve been knocking doors and canvasing for the SNP since 1946. Believe me you were much more likely, as a teenager in those days, when the SNP were regarded by many to be dangerous terrorists to get a bad reaction.

      “I suggest an anger management course instead.”

      Why on earth would I need an anger management course? I don’t get angry. Either on line or face to face.

      I learned long, long ago at the school debating society, that those who get angry have lost the debate or argument. There you go again, though, jumping to conclusions with absolutely no evidence whatsoever. I did say you had annoyed me but annoyance is not anger.

      “Oh dear,it reminds me of my SNP branch in the fifties. All these fundamentalist Scots with beards and kilts and “accurate” history.”

      More conclusions jumped too, Famous15, I’ve never worn a kilt or had a beard in my life. ‘Fraid you not only have the wrong conclusion yet again but by a very long way.

      “Down Whiteinch life was too tough for such perfection.”

      Well! Famous15, I do not believe there was anywhere that was more tough to canvass than, “The Jungle”, in Leith in the mid 40s when Leith was a busy dock area.

      “Hope never to see these days return, so Robert have a llok in the mirror and ask would you convert to independence if you were the “salesman”?”

      More jumped to conclusions, Famous15. You have no idea what I look like in a mirror nor do you get the point that people are converted by getting told the truth and also by having their most fondly held beliefs proven to be wrong by logical argument and straight facts.

      You seem to have, by your own words, concluded I’m an angry, bearded, kilt wearing person who has never canvassed.

      Mind you I have to own up to not being able to canvass these days, but before you go jumping to any more unproven conclusions, This is due to disability caused by my late wife and I being hit head on by a drunk driver.

      Still and all I convert people by reasoned and provable facts. A good memory and actual facts is a very handy set of tools in political debate – that and not getting angry.

    196. arthur thomson says:

      @ Valerie 6.25

      There are always trolls on Wings and while I don’t think we should feed them, I also don’t think we should chase them away. They are unfortunate souls who are subsisting at the bottom of the Brit barrel. They are actually using up time in their lives to disrupt the fat chewing activities of us yessers. It makes me laugh.

      On innumerable occasions I have read really insightful, instructive and motivational comments by regular contributors. The inane crap put out by the trolls doesn’t diminish this, it just provides a useful contrast that reinforces the value of the genuine article.

      Poor souls, trolls.

    197. Robert Peffers says:

      @DerekM says: 13 April, 2017 at 8:27 pm:

      “If there is no UK to pay pensions to Scots then who will pay the English pensioners hmmm?
      And do not say England because there is no English pension either it is a UK pension.
      Maybe you should be asking why the UK government no longer has this money that is yours.
      When this busts open it will make fat Maxwell look like a petty crook.
      Funny how it is only the Scots who will be affected by this.”

      Now there’s a man who has just driven in a nail with one mighty hammer blow.

    198. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      I am attracted to the idea of the Scottish Government including in their prospectus for independence the setting of a time target by which State Pensions in iScotland will rise to the level of the EU average.

    199. Andy smith says:

      I’ll be glad when the new forth bridge is completed…Be somewhere for all the trolls to go sit under and give us all peace!

    200. heedtracker says:

      Calgacus MacAndrews says:
      13 April, 2017 at 9:46 pm
      I am attracted to the idea of the Scottish Government including in their prospectus for independence the setting of a time target by which State Pensions in iScotland will rise to the level of the EU average.

      Its clear as day economic policy choices. The BBC thing I cut n pasted there loves the word “generous.”

      “However, when private and workplace pensions are taken into account, the UK scores much better.

      Based on average salaries, the UK comes 15th out of 34 OECD countries for generosity.”

      But going looking at the stats, its a UK average dragged way up by very high private pensions, paid to high paid UK professions, who vote.

    201. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

      Tomorrow’s National front page:

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9Ug8dpXsAAVu2I.jpg

    202. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

      Tomorrow’s “National” twitter pages:

      https://twitter.com/ScotNational

    203. Famous15 says:

      Robert Peffers I have carefully read all your posts. I apologise and feel like a heel. Have a happy life.

    204. Robert Peffers says:

      @sassenach says: 13 April, 2017 at 8:28 pm:

      “Excellent post, and why ‘Famous 15 ‘ has such trouble understanding it, I do not know…… (or do I??).

      Och! Sassenach, it is just what I said. The Westminster Propaganda machine has spent centuries and lots of money to get these wee, seemingly unimportant lies firmly implanted in the brains of, not just Scots, but people throughout the World.

      People are just not aware what it is they are doing. It is not just random examples of lazy or sloppy English language. It is a calculated, deliberate act to make England seem far more important and powerful than England really is by putting down everyone else.

      I befriended a Belgian girl studying at Edinburgh Uni way back in the mid 50s. She was a very bright girl. I remember many things she said. One was that there were no other nations on Earth that had so many derogatory names for other country’s peoples than the English or those in former English colonies, particularly the USA.

      Is there a nation on Earth the English haven’t got a derogatory name for. I sometimes hear Scots unthinkingly use such terms – but not so often

      For example I saw the term, “Toe rag”, used on Wings just the other day. Now! Mealy Mouthed Dictionary’s will tell you that this is derived from the rags tramps wound round their feet in place of socks.

      It isn’t – I get the real meaning from an old ex-army Sargent Major in the early 1950s. He had spend almost his entire life abroad. The proverbial real, “Old Soldier”.

      The real definition is the, not so high, regard the British army had for a member of a the Berber people of the western and central Sahara, living mainly in Algeria, Mali, Niger, and western Libya, traditionally as nomadic pastoralists.

      “Toe Rag”, is actually a contraction of, “Tuareg”, and the, “British”, Army though of them as a complete people of, “Thieves & Vagabonds”.

    205. Bill McLean says:

      Well done Famous 15! Now let’s stop falling out the job is not done yet! No one has a monopoly on right or wrong and we respect all points of view except those who would do us harm – as if they haven’t done us and many others in this world enough harm. Keep to the main aim – Scottish freedom – to make our own choices and fall out about them on the way!

    206. Capella says:

      @ Robert Peffers – yer an education so ye are. Keep on keeping on! 🙂

    207. David says:

      Red Herring replied to me, but did not address the points in my 2 comments. That to me is typical trawling behaviour. Tut tut, Albert.
      I hope he read Breeks’ comment at 7:43pm, and DereM’s at 8:27pm. Both excellent, and to the point.

    208. Robert Peffers says:

      @Pete says: 13 April, 2017 at 9:00 pm:

      “All Albert and myself are saying is that a newly independent Scotland will be liable for paying Scottish pensioners.”

      The point is, Pete that they won’t be liable to pay the pensions of those, like myself, who have retired and have paid the UK NHS Stamp all their lives.

      Think of it this way – If you had signed up with the Liverpool Victoria to get a private pension at age 65 and then the Liverpool Victoria were independent as an English Company you wouldn’t expect, “Scottish Widows”, to take over paying your pension after independence.

      Your policy, or contract, is with the Liverpool Victoria and the Liverpool Vic got all your premiums and contracted to pay your OAP.

      That’s the UK State Pension – you paid your stamp as the premium and the UK Treasury has used your money and is liable for the pay-out of the pension that they contracted to honour.

      It has nothing whatsoever to do with GERS. The independent Scotland will only be liable for the premiums paid after independence.

      I have no doubt that the actual cash will be paid over to the pensioner by the SG but the money to cover it will come from the then independent Government of England. That is unless the two independent Kingdoms negotiate a complete sum of money in a singe settlement.

      I would think, though, that as the Kingdom of England is more than likely to by more than a little stropped for readies upon the union ending, they will be quite keen to make annual payments which, because they will annually become less by the Scottish government getting more and more liability for those actually paying into the Scottish state pension scheme.

    209. Al Dossary says:

      Aye Rev Stu,

      It is a muckle big bridge ye have built right enough – going by the number of trolls living beneath it.

    210. Shinty says:

      DerekM -Nope disagree i say we go full British on this one and bribe their sad old asses with a better pension

      Funny how the simplest of phrases can make you laugh – thanks, that did it for me.

    211. ian m says:

      Not sure that Scotland should just take over paying the pensions of existing pensioners.The government had a responsibility to protect the monies put in by all pensioners They took that money out and they should have to put it back.There should be a massive pension fund sitting there.Scotland should not have to use current income to pay for previous disasters.
      MI-7 receives over 2.5 Billion per year to screw over social media sites like this one.We are a threat to the UK albeit a democratic one.The more numpties we keep occupied here, the less time they have elsewhere.To find out more of what they are up to check out Calton Jocks site he has good info on how they work

    212. Albert Herring says:

      @David

      “Pensions paid out now by UK are the result of decades of contributions paid in to the UK by people in the past.”

      No, those contributions have already been paid out to past pensioners.

      “The current, and continuing, UK obligation to pay rests on the past NI payments received by UK.”

      Not according to the Scottish Government. (see “Scotlands Future”)

      “If the UK successor state, call it rUK, or Remnant Kingdom, or Poundland, tries to renege on these pension liabilities, it will be crushed in court.”

      Who says the ‘thingmy’ is the continuing state? (see Mr. Peffers’ daily screeds).

      We are perfectly able to look after our own pensioners a whole lot better than the UK’s pathetic efforts. Do you thing we’re too poor or something?

    213. Phronesis says:

      Astonishing- this is what happens when a government is visionary in its forward planning and learns from experience, understands the impact that policy choices have on future generations;

      ‘The purpose of the Government Pension Fund is to facilitate government savings to finance rising public pension expenditures, and support long-term considerations in the spending of government petroleum revenues. A sound long-term management of the Fund contributes to intergenerational equity, by allowing both current and future generations to benefit from the petroleum revenues…

      The investment strategy of the Government Pension Fund is premised on seeking to maximise the return on fund assets within a moderate level of risk. The strategy is based on assessments of expected return and risk in the long run and is derived from the purpose and distinctive characteristics of the Fund, comparative advantages of the asset manager, as well as assumptions regarding the functioning of the financial markets.The Ministry has attached considerable weight to anchoring the investment strategy in financial theory, research and accumulated experience.’

      https://www.regjeringen.no/en/topics/the-economy/the-government-pension-fund/id1441/.

      All because a government of a small country understood the importance of potential wealth creation and wealth distribution. A government that can actually demonstrate intelligent financial stewardship of a vast natural resource;

      ‘In the early days, foreign companies dominated exploration activities, and they were responsible for developing the first oil and gas fields. Norwegian participation gradually increased as Norsk Hydro became involved. Saga Petroleum, a private Norwegian company, was established in 1972. Statoil was also established in 1972, with the Norwegian state as sole owner. Norway also established the principle that the state was to have a 50 per cent ownership interest in every production licence.

      From 1 January 1985, this system was reorganised. The Norwegian state’s participating interest was split in two: one part linked to Statoil and one to the State’s Direct Financial Interest (SDFI) in the petroleum industry.
      The SDFI system means that the Norwegian state owns holdings in a number of oil and gas fields, pipelines and onshore facilities. The proportion is determined when production licences are awarded, and varies from field to field. As one of several owners, the State covers its share of investments and costs, and receives a corresponding share of the income from production licences. Statoil was made responsible for handling the commercial aspects of SDFI on behalf of the state’

      http://www.norskpetroleum.no/en/framework/norways-petroleum-history/

    214. Robert Peffers says:

      @Albert Herring says: 13 April, 2017 at 9:13 pm:

      “”What I’m saying is that Scottish taxpayers are already paying for Scottish pensions, and we don’t need any subs from London.”.

      Trouble is, Albert, we mostly all know what you are saying but it simply is wrong.

      This was clearly set out in “Scotland’s Future””

      You will note, Albert, that the title you quote is, “Scotland’s FUTURE”.

      It is true that in, ““Scotland’s FUTURE.”, when those drawing their Scottish Pension Scotland will have the cash to pay their Scottish Pensions. Thing is that folks like me have paid the Westminster Treasury for our pensions and it is Westminster that will continue to pay us what they owe us.

      From day one of independence those who are still not getting their UK state pension will start to pay into the Scottish state pension fund but will still have money that is due from the UK pension fund and the UK, who took the money, are legally due to pay a proportion of their pensions when they are age to draw it. The will get part from the Old UK fund and part from the new Scottish fund.

      Eventually all Scots will be on a full Scottish pension. What people on Wings are telling you is that people in the EU who work in different countries will get their pensions part paid from whatever countries they paid into. It works like that already throughout the EU.
      All this stuff about “I’ve paid into the system and I want my money back” is rubbish as that money has already been spent on past pensions.

    215. geeo says:

      On the pension issue.

      Perhaps we could simply request full repayment of ALL built up entitlement up to the point of independence.

      This could be based on % of tax revenues used on pensions annually ?

      Plus the relevent rates of interest.

      Then we can just cut WM adrift on this issue.

      (This comment is not 100% serious…just getting that out there…whisky has been consumed)

    216. louis.b.argyll says:

      Pensions?

      It is the sorry state of journalism, that makes today’s pensioners think the Tories will look after their descendants.

      A stich up, played out over the last 40 years..destroying welfare for all, in the name of wealth creation.

      I don’t want wealth, if it is created through someone else’s misery.

      The Tories make ‘wealth’ a sickening destination for humanity.

    217. DerekM says:

      Aye Robert nobody ever thinks about the poor English very sad got their country taken over by a bunch of nutters who spent all the money in the rainy day jar.

    218. Gary45% says:

      Somebody should ask “Ruth Clause” Harrison for her “expert, unbiased opinion??” on the matter. I thought this pension bollocks was admitted to be garbage after the last Indy Ref, methinks they better get some new lies.

    219. louis.b.argyll says:

      There’s nothing quite like Mr Peffers sticking to his guns. Like a bolt of reality to lazy wonderers with lazy imaginations.

      A bit like the Rev..on twitter, where I lurk a lot these days.

    220. Thepnr says:

      @Famous 15

      Hey your voice is as relevant on Wings as anyone else’s, sure we sometimes fall out and might even slag each other off in some kind of spat.

      So what? We all have the same goal at heart and should treat each other with respect. Not easy I know but something we could aim for?

      I’m one of the worst offenders but am trying my best at repenting. Your voice is an important one as all of ours are.

      None of us will be silenced. Say it like it is else say nothing.

      Speak your mind because only you know what it contains and I want to hear it.

    221. Polscot says:

      rUK = Poundland

      I did have a chuckle at the at one.

    222. Albert Herring says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Sheesh!

      172. Will pension rights already accrued be protected in an independent Scotland?

      Yes. Accrued pension rights will be protected in an independent Scotland. Our plans are as follows:
      For those people living and working in Scotland at the time of independence, the UK pension entitlement they have accrued prior to independence will become their Scottish State Pension entitlement
      Any pension entitlement accrued in Scotland after independence will also form part of that Scottish State Pension
      On retirement, the Scottish State Pension will be paid by the Scottish Government

      173. I’ve worked most of my life in England and have only moved to Scotland recently to retire. Does that affect who will pay my pension and how much I will get?

      No, it will not affect how much you will get. If you are in receipt of a UK State Pension on independence and you are resident in Scotland, the responsibility for paying that pension and all associated payments will transfer to the Scottish Government.

      174. I’ve accrued some State Pension in England, and some overseas, but none in Scotland. I’m now living in Scotland. How will my State Pension entitlement be calculated and who will pay it?

      It will not matter where in the UK you accrued your State Pension entitlement: if you are retired and are living in Scotland on independence, the Scottish Government will be responsible for paying that pension. The amount you are entitled to will not change because of independence.
      In terms of State Pension accrued outside the UK, the Westminster Government is currently not responsible for these payments. The same will be true of the Scottish Government
      On independence. People living in Scotland will, as is the case now, have their international pensions paid either by the country concerned or by the International Pensions Centre.

      175. I live in Scotland but I work between Edinburgh and London for different employers. What will happen to the various State Pension pots I have accrued after independence?

      All State Pension accrued up to the point of independence anywhere within the UK will count as your State Pension entitlement.
      After independence, any pension entitlement gained by working in Scotland will accrue to your Scottish State Pension. Any pension entitlement from working in England, Wales or Northern Ireland will accrue to the UK State Pension and will be payable by the Westminster Government.

    223. Polscot says:

      bluddy predictive text, it should of course read:

      rUK = Poundland

      I did have a chuckle at that one.

      Apologies.

    224. Robert Peffers says:

      @Calgacus MacAndrews says: 13 April, 2017 at 9:46 pm:

      “I am attracted to the idea of the Scottish Government including in their prospectus for independence the setting of a time target by which State Pensions in iScotland will rise to the level of the EU average.”

      Oh! Come on Calgacus, no Scottish government before independence would be foolish enough to do such a thing for the very good reason that they may not be the Government in Scotland after independence is taken by Scotland.

      Even if they were, can you see any unionist party making such a promise? They will never admit that the United Kingdom is going to split up and no one else, not unionist, except the SNP have a chance of being the government of Scotland while we are still under Westminster rule.

      It will take an independent Scottish Government a while to sort out just exactly what an Independent Scotland’s fiscal situation is with actual Scottish figures.

    225. David says:

      Albert H, what Rob Peffers said!
      Also, to be clear, I agree with you that “We are perfectly able to look after our own pensioners a whole lot better than the UK’s pathetic efforts.” Or we will be, once we are independent.

      I fully believe that iScot will be a successful country.
      We have the skilled workforce, the raw materials, the energy & renewable energy resources, etc. etc., that will allow us to build a great future for all who live in Scotland.

      One thing though, I hope we have our own Scottish currency, with no tie, link, or peg to the UK Pound. I simply do not trust rUK any more on currency.

    226. Effijy says:

      Breaking News: President Bashar Hafez al-Assad is calling on sanctions against the Westminster Government due to the mass murder of new born babies in England.

      A handful of Syrian Babies have died in a Chemical attack
      from an unproven source and the UK are up in arms about it.

      Yet, More 800 babies die every year because of the appalling state of maternity care in the NHS, a report claims. England has the worst record in Europe!

      One in three NHS England maternity units have turned away women in labour!

      The Tories know that continually cutting the NHS Budget in real terms means unnecessary deaths in all ages and still they are planning more cuts.

      No Duty of Care, Nomorality, No to a united killerdom.

    227. Bill Hume says:

      I have trees in my garden. Mature big trees. I remember looking up at them after I voted in Indyref1 and went to bed wondering if, in the morning, they would be UK trees or Scottish trees.

      It’s a poor world in which you can’t trust your own trees.

      It got me thinking however, and as a pensioner I’ve just realised, that I don’t give a fuck about my pension. I don’t care whether we have oil or would be better or worse off as an independent nation.

      I just want away from all these control freaks of the ‘British Establishment’

      Liars one and all.

      After Indyref2, I shall deck my trees in blue and white (with no red to be seen), provided I live long enough.

    228. CameronB Brodie says:

      Talking of the Rev.’s twitter, I see that heavyweight of economic theory, Anas Sarwar, is another fan of K____n H___e’s magical thinking. He’ll be explaining next why Brexit isn’t the most xenophobic, exclusionary and self-harming policy in living memory. If we are really lucky, he might also explain why a career politician who makes his living in Scotland, seeks to prevent Scots from accessing their inalienable human rights.

      Anas Sarwar
      Wind your neck in thicko.

      Transforming our world: the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development

      Our shared principles and commitments

      10. The new Agenda is guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations, including full respect for international law. It is grounded in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, international human rights treaties, the Millennium Declaration and the 2005 World Summit Outcome Document. It is informed by other instruments such as the Declaration on the Right to Development.

      https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/post2015/transformingourworld

      “The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

      “The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

      http://www.un.org/en/events/righttodevelopment/pdf/rtd_at_a_glance.pdf

    229. David says:

      Albert, the SNP Scottish Government are good guys, but they were not born yesterday.
      If they said they are going to take over payment of former UK pensions to people living in Scotland, we can be very sure that they will be reaching a financial agreement with the Westminster government regarding this.
      I don’t particularly care about the details, as long as the Scottish negotiating team get a good deal from the WM team.

    230. G H Graham says:

      Stu,

      Looks like your link above “… is posting endlessly on Twitter…”

      (https://twitter.com/search?l=&q=pensions%20from%3Ablairmcdougall&src=typd)

      no longer works cos McDougall has deleted his pension tweets.

      So he is working after all. Ha!

    231. Dr Jim says:

      @Bill Hume

      I’m with you Bill I’ll sit under your trees right along with you, in fact you might have a queue at your gate

      A Scotsmans tree is his own tree!

    232. crazycat says:

      @ Meg merrilees

      I was also in George Square this evening. It was pretty full.

      A request was made for people to sign this government petition:
      https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/195077

      I know what will happen to it, but forcing a debate would at least show that we are not just accepting their vileness.

      There were quite a lot of people there that I recognized, including Muriel Gray – protesting against Better Togetherness in action. I doubt she saw it that way, of course.

    233. Thepnr says:

      @Bill Hume

      You have heart and with that my respect. Never change.

    234. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Anas Sarwar
      Apologies, that wasn’t the bead-time reading I meant to post. Please feel free to try again once you’re ‘up-to-speed’.

      Cultural Capital and Social Exclusion: A Critical Investigation
      http://www.esds.ac.uk/doc/5832/mrdoc/pdf/5832userguide.pdf

    235. Robert Peffers says:

      @Albert Herring says: 13 April, 2017 at 11:13 pm:

      @Robert Peffers
      Sheesh!

      Ach! Sheesh! yersel, Albert.

      You are confusing two things.

      Of course the Scottish government will be handing over the pension to the people of Scotland because the independent Scottish Government will be running the Scottish state pension scheme. However, the way you pay into the pension schemes will also be handled by whatever country you are living in at any particular time, Just as it is now throughout the EU.

      A Scot living and working in France will have his/her pension contribution deducted by France and a French person living and working in Scotland will be paying his dues to the UK.

      As people posting here on Wings have already posted that they do so. However, if they then retire home their pensions are paid where they live. My sister in Australia doesn’t get her portion of her UK pension posted to her by the UK. It comes via the Australian Government who get paid for it by the UK.

      On retirement, the Scottish State Pension will be paid by the Scottish Government
      173. I’ve worked most of my life in England and have only moved to Scotland recently to retire. Does that affect who will pay my pension and how much I will get?
      No, it will not affect how much you will get. If you are in receipt of a UK State Pension on independence and you are resident in Scotland, the responsibility for paying that pension and all associated payments will transfer to the Scottish Government.
      174. I’ve accrued some State Pension in England, and some overseas, but none in Scotland. I’m now living in Scotland. How will my State Pension entitlement be calculated and who will pay it?
      It will not matter where in the UK you accrued your State Pension entitlement: if you are retired and are living in Scotland on independence, the Scottish Government will be responsible for paying that pension. The amount you are entitled to will not change because of independence.
      In terms of State Pension accrued outside the UK, the Westminster Government is currently not responsible for these payments. The same will be true of the Scottish Government
      On independence. People living in Scotland will, as is the case now, have their international pensions paid either by the country concerned or by the International Pensions Centre.
      175. I live in Scotland but I work between Edinburgh and London for different employers. What will happen to the various State Pension pots I have accrued after independence?
      All State Pension accrued up to the point of independence anywhere within the UK will count as your State Pension entitlement.
      After independence, any pension entitlement gained by working in Scotland will accrue to your Scottish State Pension. Any pension entitlement from working in England, Wales or Northern Ireland will accrue to the UK State Pension and will be payable by the Westminster Government.

    236. Still Positive says:

      I hope the SG will negotiate that they will pay UK pensions for those already retired but also the pensions of UK civil servants, the Mod and others.

      I have a Civil Service Widows Pension and would much prefer an Independent Scottish Government to pay this as well as my Retirement Pension.

      I also have a small teachers’ pension but as that is paid by SPPA (Scottish Public Pensions Agency) I am less worried about this.

      SPPA pays the pensions of the Local Government workers including Police, Fire Brigade, teachers and some NHS workers.

    237. Robert Peffers says:

      Arrrgh! My posts are all over the place just now and my router is cutting in and out and posts are only sometimes showing up. I’ve had enough for now, I’m off to bed and hope the missing posts show up.

    238. Adam Rodger says:

      The pensions of the united Kingdom are paid out to those who have paid in NI contributions and are entitled to a pension.

      After Scotland becomes independent the pensions will continue to be paid. At the moment pensions are paid by the united kingdoms of Scotland and England. After independence these two kingdoms will no longer be united. The former partners in the union will still have to meet pension obligations.

      So the disunited kingdoms of Scotland and England will continue to pay pensions out of current revenues.

      To argue that the UK will have to go on making payments ignores the fact that there will be no UK.

      Currently we are the UK though we get no say in how we are governed or how our taxes are spent.

      After Independence we should be able to match the pension schemes of our Northern European neighbours (e.g. Denmark).

    239. Still Positive says:

      Mod should be MoD = Ministry of Defence.

    240. Ken500 says:

      If Scotkand is not spending £1Billion on Trident, can save £1Billion on ‘loss leading’ drink. Minimum pricing. Is not paying £4Billion on loan repayments on money it doesn’t borrow or spend. Has full employment. Is not taxing the Oil & Gas sector out of existence, losing 120,000 jobs. Is investing more in renewables and electric cars. Saving £Billions for the economy. Meets emission targets.

      Has a proper tax regime. Stop foreign multinationals tax evading, in line with EU policies. Increases exports and is more prosperous. All the citizens will benefit including pensioners. There will be plenty of funds to provide adequately for all pensioners, the elderly the sick, the children and the vulnerable. Continuing to support NHS/Education. Skills and health.

      Scotland would be £20Billion+ better off. Enough to pay adequate pensions. Instead of the pittance. To spend more wisely and invest in the economy. Cleaner, greener and renewable. Let’s do it. Independence is the key.

    241. Tackety Beets says:

      @ Bill Hume 11.38 pm

      Exactly Bill , Same here , iScotland first .

      I too have been 100% INDY SUPPORTER SINCE 60s , Yes in ’79 , yet after ticking the box YES in 2014 went from being happy & excited to a strange apprehensive as I exited the Polling hall.

      I did not expect to have that feeling at that time, it made me wonder about the BS media ? ?
      Did it have a subconscious effect even on folk like me ?

      Thankfully folk like me will never be swayed , its like you could split me open to find a massive YES inside.
      I wonder what MSM BS we find today.

    242. starlaw says:

      After Brexit no pension is safe I prefer to take my chances with Europe in an Independent Scotland.

    243. galamcennalath says:

      Scrap the “rape clause” and the “family cap” on social security payments.

      http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=195077

      Map. Looks like the South Britons aren’t as offended by this as we are.

    244. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I alwasy have a look at the Rev’s twitter feed when I log-on in the morning, you get some fascinating stuff there.

      I see this morning, Tasmina and Hanza have been getting pelters from the lunatic fringe of the Rangers support. This has left me confused.

      In attacking two of our excellent Muslim MPs and MSPs, are the blue-nose bigots becoming more ecumenical, attacking Muslims now, instead of just attacking “Kafflicks”. Does this mean they are coming closer to the modern world than 1690, or, might it be they are regressing from the 17th to the 11th, 12th, 13th and 14th centuries and the days of the Crusades?

      Either way, they are clearly not becoming any cleverer.

    245. Hamish100 says:

      Ruth Davidson has made a big mistake with her cowardly silence but nevertheless support of the Tory rape benefit fiasco.

      Her performance on tv last night was a disgrace as she sided with the rapists bill.
      Punishing women who were subject to abuse.

      All she had to say is . This is a bad policy— for England Wales Northern Ireland and that other place in the mists. I will strive to get the policy changed.

      Nope she couldn’t say that. Had to attack the SNP and Holyrood.

      What’s that I hear you say? An act of hypocrisy? Yes I think you are correct.

    246. heedtracker says:

      Either way, they are clearly not becoming any cleverer.

      There is that, and a big schlub like Macdougal endlessly spreading fear, uncertainty, doubt, and this kind of toryboy stuff.

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/15220460.Tory_MP_compares_SNP_MPs_to__rejected_extras_from_a_low_budget_Lord_of_the_Rings_spin_off_/?ref=fbshr

    247. BJ says:

      Talking to a Rangers fanatic yesterday who “hates Nicola Sturgeon”. He said Labour always stick up for women and I remembered something I had saved. Not sure where I saved it from but I found it.

      2014

      “”In the cause of transparency here are your Scottish elected members who couldn’t be bothered to turn up for their own vote on equal pay for women.

      Scottish Labour leader – Jim Murphy
      Shadow Scottish Secretary – Margaret Curran
      Former Labour PM – Gordon Brown
      Leader of ‘Better Together’ – Alistair Darling
      Serial Labour pious-ist – Douglas Alexander
      Labour ‘socialist’ leadership candidate – Katy Clark
      Labour front bencher – Russell Brown
      Pamela Nash
      Anne McGuire
      Michael Connarty
      Tom Harris “”

    248. One_Scot says:

      For any voters who are still undecided about how to vote in the coming ScotRef, this tweet is where we currently are,

      https://twitter.com/ThomasCArthur/status/852654606920417282

      Do we really want this to also be our future?

    249. DerekM says:

      lol aye Heed the insults are flying out,Britnat propaganda machine has been turned up to 11.

      Well since we busted Gers and the pensions and stuck the Ruth clause right up her flip flopping buffalo straddling shouty arse i think they might be a tad upset.

      What a shame lol

    250. heedtracker says:

      All the savagery of toryboy UK, killer blows to Nicola Sturgeon etc, from,

      Bill Cash Retweeted
      Isabel Hardman?Verified account @IsabelHardman 27 Sep 2014
      More
      Tory rebel Bill Cash has handed his party leadership a change to Commons rules which could bring EVEL in asap

      to,

      ‘It BELONGS to US!’ Tory MP issues HANDS OFF warning to Sturgeon over North Sea oil

      NICOLA Sturgeon has been dealt a killer blow to her Scottish independence dreams after being told to keep her hands off the United Kingdom’s North Sea oil.
      “Even supposing they can get their hands on North Sea oil because there is an issue about territorial waters, which doesn’t seem to get discussed – they belong to the United Kingdom.”

      By JOE BARNES
      PUBLISHED: 04:01, Thu, Apr 13, 2017 | UPDATED: 07:13, Thu, Apr 13, 2017

      Surely Joe Barnes doesn’t want Scotland’s given a killer blow, just the policy?

    251. heedtracker says:

      Surely Joe Barnes doesn’t want Scotland’s FM given a killer blow, just the policy?

      Sorry. Coffee time with 21st century fascism is no fun.

    252. galamcennalath says:

      One_Scot says:

      Do we really want this to also be our future?

      We don’t want it to be part of our future in any shape or form!

      Davidson gained votes in 2016 by pretending not to be a toxic Tory. Now, she can’t hide any longer. The true nature of both herself and her wee branch office are exposed to the world.

      In iScotland we don’t need representatives of her Greater England NationalIST Party!

    253. galamcennalath says:

      heedtracker says:

      …they belong to the United Kingdom.

      Next thing they will be trying to tell us Faslane will remain Greater England sovereign territory! 🙂

    254. Ken500 says:

      The Tories. The ignorant incompetent Osbourne 6 jobs. Caused the biggest downturn in the Scottish Oil & Gas sector by illegally the sector at 60% to 80% when the price had fallen 75%. Losing 120,000 jobs in Scotland. Losing Scotland £Billions. More Oil and Gas has to be imported putting up the balance of deficit and the Debt. Fracked Gas from the US and Norwegian Gas etc.

      The Tories are a disgusting disgrace. Bill Cash is one of the most ignorant, incompetent disgraceful Tories. Brexit is a complete and utter disgrace. Ruining the world economy.The Tories committed electoral fraud in 31 constituencies to ruin the world economy. An illegitimate government. They are starving and killing children and the vulnerable. They are contemptible. Total and utterly greedy liars. They have increased child poverty.

    255. heedtracker says:

      DerekM says:
      14 April, 2017 at 9:22 am
      lol aye Heed the insults are flying out,Britnat propaganda machine has been turned up to 11.

      Its hard to keep with the whole UKOK tory media creepshow sometimes.

      Mirror’s news on latest psycho toryboy stuff. BY MIKEY SMITHDAN BLOOMJON VALE
      00:01, 12 APR 2017UPDATED07:59, 12 APR 2017

      50,000 disabled people lose adapted vehicles in Tory benefits shake-up

      Charity Muscular Dystrophy UK said 900 cars are now being taken away every week

      But toryboys have been going after disabled people of ages now,

      Stinky old Graun, Wednesday 6 April 2016 08.00 BST

      “Under the new rules, to be eligible for the Motability scheme, a disabled person needs to score 12 assessment points. Tait scored 10. “I had training half an hour after I opened the letter [from the Department for Work and Pensions],” she recalls. “I spent the entire time crying as I went round the track. My coach rushed over asking what’s wrong. There I was sobbing, ‘I’ve lost my car. They’re taking my car.’”

      What is happening to Tait is only the tip of the iceberg. Despite the government’s much-publicised climbdown over one PIP cut to disability aids in the home, there is still wide-scale reassessment going on, which is seeing disabled people losing their cars. Since 2013, more than 17,000 disabled people have had their mobility cars, powered wheelchairs, or scooters taken away after being reassessed, according to Motability. By 2018, the DWP will have retested some two million disabled people and it is predicted that 90,000 motability vehicles will be repossessed.”

      Its been going on since 2013, but England voted tory last GE, as we know.

    256. Dorothy Devine says:

      I’m with you Golden Oldies , I want my country free to enjoy its own successes and deal with its failures – and I want to see that happening before I kick the bucket , time is running out!

    257. Socrates MacSporran says:

      That Daily Depress piece, quoting Euroseptic Bill Cash is yet another example of what we are up against.

      Cash battled the Tory Party establishment for years to get the UK out of Europe – he and his cronies won that one.

      Now, he has decided: It’s England’s Oil.

      When we regain our independence, Cash and his ilk will immediately turn on Mother Theresa, for allowing their precious Union to break-up, it will not be pretty.

      Mother Theresa and the Tory Party establishment know, Cash and his cronies will eat them alive if they allow Scotland to be freed. Sure, they want Britain to be Great Britain again, but, in there eyes Great Britain and England are one and the same – they own Scotland, the Jocks must not be allowed to leave.

      Theresa and her gang fear Cash and his cronies, nothing will be beyond the pale as they battle to keep Scotland tied to England and Cash and Co quiet.

      The fact he can spout such pish about the oil demonstrate how emboldened the Tory backwoodsmen have been made by Brexit.

    258. Ken500 says:

      Revenues from the Scottish NS Oil sector were secretly and illegally taken from Scotland and hidden under the Official Secrets Act by Thatcher. The revenues have been illegally used to fund illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion by criminal politicians at Westminster. A £300 Billion resources wasted by Westminster Treasury.

      Along with other illegal economic policies imposed by unelected Westminster in Scotland. Against the majority wishes and the public interest. People like Bill Cash are the reason the rest of the UK is in Trns of debt. Being controlled by foreign non democratic administrations/organisations and wasting £Billions/Trn of taxpayers money.

    259. Dr Jim says:

      They’re a funny lot the English Parliament
      They’ll defend to the death the rights of every man woman and child they say to define their own lives they say in…(It’s ours It’s ours It’s ours) Gibralter, or even go to war for the (It’s our British territory)…the Malvinas/Falklands
      If Johnny Foreigner so much as moves a tug boat in these areas the British are there at the Toot shouting the odds threatening to shoot folk with big guns and more threateny ships
      The Russians fly round Scotland regularly they’ve sailed up our waterways in submarines they land on some of our islands for a pint with the locals, when do the threateny British arrive? just in time to be too late, every single time
      So if Vlad the impaler intended to blow up Faslane it wouldn’t be difficult, of course it would kill countless amounts of us but maybe that’s a good thing from a certain perspective (Bill Cash)

      When it comes to Scotland The English powers that be would much quicker kill us off rather than have us define our future
      And when you think about it that shows you how much Scotland as a land mass is actually worth to them

      So the English will fight for property territory or posessions or money or mineral rights, but for peoples rights

      Not so much!

      Could they bee more murdery?

    260. stu mac says:

      @Socrates MacSporran says:
      14 April, 2017 at 8:31 am
      =============================

      Despite claims to the contrary, racism (and more recently Nazi salutes) has gone hand in hand with religious** bigotry at the hunnery. They are after all 2 sides of the same coin. Mindless hatred of one group can easily lead to hatred of other groups.

      **Properly speaking one maybe should say “irreligious” bigotry as true religious feelings have long played little part in it. It is sad how hatred can survive so long even when it becomes meaningless.

    261. Croompenstein says:

      I used to be an employee(citizen) of a large company and I paid in to the company pension scheme. I am no longer an employee(citizen) of that company but I still receive an annual report and will be paid a pension based on my contributions when I retire.

      Strangely enough I left that company to go in to FTE and a few months later I received a letter from the NI office in Newcastle stating that I was no longer paying NI I may have to make up the shortfall in the future. I got it sorted out alright with them which leads me to believe the UK pension will work in the same way as the company pension.

      I am currently employed(citizen) in the UK and pay NI so when I am no longer employed(citizen) of the UK and become a citizen of the sovereign nation of Scotland I will expect to receive a pension from the former UK treasury based on the contributions I have made up to the point of dissolution.

      And I will expect that when I am employed(citizen) of Scotland I will receive a pension from Scotland based on the contributions I have made until I retire or reach pension age.

      Does that sound right?

    262. heedtracker says:

      The fact he can spout such pish about the oil demonstrate how emboldened the Tory backwoodsmen have been made by Brexit”

      Core tory vote likes it though. Trump’s probably embolden hard core toryboys too. Tory BBC propaganda hides just how hate dripping neo fascist Trump’s campaign really was but the sheer savagery of it is on display here and now, with fascist rags like the Heil, Express etc, Killer Blow for Sturgeon style.

      Mind how Teresa grinched about the nasty party? another time.

    263. K1 says:

      As crazycat has already posted re the ‘R clause’. Allison Thewlis and our MP’s need this to keep pushing the bastards. The more signatures the more likely to keep it uppermost, she’s been fighting this for 21 months guys…please spread far and wide.

      ‘A request was made for people to sign this government petition:’

      https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/195077

      The sigs have doubled overnight, let’s get this over the mark eh?

    264. HandandShrimp says:

      Completely baffled as to why Struth and that endangered bird Curlew thought for one passing moment that the best defence against the utterly despicable Tory rape clause was to default to SNPbaaaad. Are they are they really that useless?

      No doubt Theresa will deliver an Easter message saying it is what what Jesus would want. (I can imagine there are a fair few private mutterings in Tory ranks about painting a target on their own backsides though.)

      A gift in the build up to the local elections. It never hurts to have a reminder on just how nasty the Tories are when let loose in power.

    265. DerekM says:

      @ Croompenstein

      Yep that is correct it is not our problem that the UK government has used this money to bet down the casino instead of investing it in a secure interest collecting back account.

      Though to be safe and i know i joked about it yesterday i do believe we should just create a new Scottish government pension with a rise and just pay everybody until we can sort out the mess that is the UK pension or get back what ever.

      If there is one thing i know it is if you wait for the UK government to sort it out well you will have a long wait.

      Plus as campaigning for indy material it will be rocket fuel vote indy get £50 Scots auld pounds extra every week,what the hell lets make it £100.

      Could stick it on the side of a bus.

    266. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Re. Pensions. UK nationals.

      At the moment we are all citizens (subjects) of the entity known as the UK of GB and NI.

      Scottish born people whether living/working in Scotland, Wales or England pay their NI contributions to the common UK treasury in London. The same goes for English/Welsh born people.

      The UK is liable and obliged to pay upon reaching retirement age, according to the amount paid and duration time, each person a pension. We all receive a pension from the UK.

      Scotland is one of the two, equal founding Treaty members of the UK. Should Scotland decide to leave/terminate the Treaty, by whatever means the people decide, then upon independence the UK will cease to exist.

      The crux of the question is “Who will thereafter continue to pay the pensions and how?”

      Remember the UK does not exist anymore, it’s back to the Kingdom of Scotland and K.o. England/Wales (or whatever they want to call themselves). Both Scotland and England are the “successor” states by reverting back to their original status.

      The “Pension Pot” was a common UK one. Does this mean that Scotland will be liable for all Scottish born pensioners and England liable for all English born ones?

    267. old highlander says:

      Off topic.

      Whilst looking at one of the new pound coins It seems to me that the thistle is a lot more prominent than the feeble looking rose which is withering away.

    268. galamcennalath says:

      old highlander says:

      the feeble looking rose which is withering away.

      Definitely a wee bit of a mildew there! 🙂

    269. Dr Jim says:

      Tory and Lib Dem Unionists “offer” referendums

      SNP “threaten” referendums

      See how that works!

    270. Albert Herring says:

      @Graf Midgehunter

      You’re on the right track.

      Everything you could possibly want to know about pensions is covered in great detail in “Scotland’s Future”.

      As far as I know, this is still the Scottish Government position.

      I’ve quoted a small part in a previous post.

    271. Brian McHugh says:

      Dr Jim… nail on the head mate. I stopped listening to ‘The News’, cos ‘News’ is only ‘news’, from the perspective of the person who values it as ‘News’.

    272. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I don’t think this has been posted above.

      Scottish Affairs Committee, 6 May 2014 – Ian Davidson asking Steven Webb about the state pension after “separation”.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su47Cx3HiSI

    273. Ken500 says:

      What happened to all that fracked Gas in the rest of the UK. Osbourne promoted. The total waste of £Billion on Hinkley by the sea, HS2, Heathrow and Trident. All redundant before they are finished. A total waste of borrowed money. The Tories have stopped investments in renewables. The cheapest and cleanest of all. They have banned wind turbines in the rest of the UK. Brexit will destroy the world economy, again. The ignorant, incompetent Tory/Unionists destroying the economy and starving children and the vulnerable.

      Bill Cash finally starting to realise what Brexit means. An arrogant, ignorant, greedy trougher stuck in the past. Nasty bullies.

      It is Scottish taxpayers who pay the (UK) Gov pension. £6Billion from taxes raised in Scotland from the £54Billion. It is Scottish taxpayers that pay the Police, NHS local
      Authorities pensions. From the Block Grant – NHS/Health Board budget, (£13Billion) raised in Scotland. Local authority pension, Teacher, administration staff etc. From the Block Grant raised in Scotland. Defence pension paid by Scottish taxpayers per the £4Billion Defence contribution. Made by Scottish taxpayers and raised in Scotland. Under written by Scottish assets and resources held in Scotland.

      Police pensions (local authority) covered by Scottish taxpayers money raised in Scotland. Police Scotland pensions might now come from central Scottish Gov funds. Police Scotland as per changes. To save £Billions. 2/3?Local authority funds come from central Gov funds in any case. University pensions come from Education funds raised by Scottish taxpayers in Scotland. The £54Billion. There are contribution every year from Scottish taxpayers. Members pay in every month. There are investment funds which earn interest on the investment markets concurrently.

      Osbourne took the Royal Mail pension – £30Billion. Now a UK Gov liability. All UK taxpayers pay for post office services (profits) which funds the PO pensions and services, along with monthly employee contributions,

      There are possible a minute amount of (UK) Civil service pensions that need to be covered. (HMRC) They can easily be covered by the benefits that come from self government and adjustments. They will now be based in Scotland bringing economic benefits. £Billions in credit. Without Westminster centrist economic policies damaging the economy in Scotland.

    274. K1 says:

      Pete Wishart has tweeted this simple graphic to convey the concept of ‘vote tae ye boak’.

      Please note Pete Wishart SNP MP is absolutely backing vote till ye boak, yes can’t repeat this often enough, the SNP ‘are’ promoting this…nae mair nonsense about ‘only’ SNP on the ballot!

      https://mobile.twitter.com/PeteWishart/status/852647683126964225/photo/1

      Spread widely folks…picture paints a thosand words ‘n aw that…

    275. Albert Herring says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      That LibDem guy looks like he’s making it up as he goes along (I’m shocked btw).

      Looks like the DWP’s changed their minds anyway.

      https://www.moneymarketing.co.uk/issues/16-march-2017/dwp-admits-misleading-public-scottish-independence/

    276. Robert Peffers says:

      @heedtracker says: 14 April, 2017 at 9:10 am:

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/15220460.Tory_MP_compares_SNP_MPs_to__rejected_extras_from_a_low_budget_Lord_of_the_Rings_spin_off_/?ref=fbshr

      Well! Then! heedtracker, It only took a very brief glance at the totally disingenuous and dishonest lies of that particular Tory nonentity to see where this auld Scots man could tie him in knots and silence him in an instance.

      He claims no one would guess that they get more funding than any other area of the UK.

      I wonder what the abusive, and obviously racist numptie, would trot out if asked, “and your proof of that outright lie is what, exactly”?

      This old hoary unionist lie is so easy to refute and so hard to deny I’m certain I’d have the idiot stuttering and spluttering in seconds.

      In fact Scotland is not even the part of the UK that actually gets the largest per capita Block Grant. Northern Ireland has that honour so the Tory nut case would be immediately wrong footed when confronted with that little fact.

      Then, while he is stuck with attempting to explain his error the next question would be, “Can you actually explain the basis of what Devolution is and why the Barnett Formula is required”?

      He is then stuck with an option. He either admits he doesn’t know or he attempts a further lie.

      The way that devolution works is that Westminster MPs, and the numptie is one of them, devolve a power, previously held by a Westminster Ministry, to a non-English country of the United Kingdom.

      That would be totally idiotic if Westminster were to transfer the power from the Ministry but not also transfer the funding that goes with the power devolved. Otherwise the devolved country could not implement the power given because Westminster raise the taxes that fund the power and thus Westminster must take that funding from the Westminster Ministry and devolve it to the Devolved country’s legislature.

      It ain’t so they say, Rocket Science.

      So having established that a devolved power must have devolved funds the next point is that every devolved country has different levels of devolved powers and the country with the most devolved powers is N.I. and thus N.I. get the largest per capita funding as Block Grant. Yer Tory Yob has just been caught out in a lie.

      Now comes the knock out punch. So all three block grants differ but there are four countries in the United Kingdom – how come England has no block grant? He either knows and proves himself a liar or he doesn’t know and proves himself a fool. He cannot win the argument.

      England, who he has claimed get less per capita funding get no block grant because England has no parliament and is funded as the United Kingdom directly with United Kingdom funds and thus they are the ones with the highest per capita funding hidden among the other UK functions by being funded via the United Kingdom ministries which, due to devolution, are only funding England and the genuine United Kingdom functions like, (laughably), the Westminster Ministries.

      Tell you a wee truth – I have argued this point with many high ranking United Kingdom Cabinet Ministers including two former Chancellors, a former Prime Minister and a Minister for Defence.

      Believe it or not none of them could explain in simple terms how the United Kingdom was funded and as for the explanation of the Barnett Formula, you never heard such gobbledegook in your life.

      BTW: My weakest subject at school was Mathematics. You will note I have not quoted a single figure in the above. I hope, though, my explanation explains a lot.

    277. galamcennalath says:

      Pete Wishart, well put …

      https://mobile.twitter.com/undefined/status/852647683126964225

      “Make sure the r a p e clause candidate is absolutely last.”

    278. K1 says:

      You explain in simple lay terms Robert (Peffers) what people like KH**** pointedly obsfucate tae the nth degree by blinding people wi false estimates and fancy graphs signifying pish!

      Keep posting, keep hammering the lie to their ‘accounting’ practises and their book cooking double dealing ideological and class driven policies.

    279. heedtracker says:

      BBC led tory attack propaganda is all over the shop when it comes to Scottish democracy, so you always have to either ignore or check the dates, although it makes no odds to them.

      ‘It BELONGS to US!’ Tory MP issues HANDS OFF warning to Sturgeon over North Sea oil

      https://www.energyvoice.com/oilandgas/north-sea/136365/north-sea-set-30bn-investment-new-projects-next-three-years/

    280. galamcennalath says:

      Scrap the “r a p e clause” and the “family cap” on social security payments.

      http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=195077

      Map. Looks like the South Britons aren’t as offended by this as we are.

    281. louis.b.argyll says:

      It’s all about the oil, folks.

    282. Jack Murphy says:

      Someone’s been very quiet about the Tory 3rd Child R… Declaration Form.

      Our very own Secretary of State for Scotland,David Mundell MP who sat in the Number 10 Cabinet Room on the 8th of July 2015 and listened to George Osborne’s proposals.

      Did he protest? Did he use his influence as Scotland’s Man in Cabinet to challenge his Tory friends?

      To the best of my knowledge he’s keeping very quiet this week—–

      Mundell was in Government…Mundell was in the Cabinet Room….Mundell is silent!!!
      That means Mundell approved George Osborne’s proposals!

      Member of Parliament
      for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale,appointed Secretary of State for Scotland May 2015.

    283. Dan Huil says:

      We’ve asked this question many times before but it still retains its relevance: If Scotland is such an economic burden on poor old England why is Westminster determined to hold onto Scotland?

    284. heedtracker says:

      “BTW: My weakest subject at school was Mathematics. You will note I have not quoted a single figure in the above. I hope, though, my explanation explains a lot.”

      Its arithmetic really Rab.

      Great post. Keep em coming.

    285. Socrates MacSporran says:

      My eldest grandson has Asperger’s Syndrome, and thus can, at times, be heavy going. He is also a political “anorak”, so I never argue with him on that subject, which he knows better than I.

      This morning he was telling me, he had a Labour Party canvasser at the door earlier in the week, campaigning for the local elections.

      As my grandson says: “It shows how far down Labour has fallen that they are having to actively campaign in New Cumnock”.

    286. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Jack Murphy @ 12.29pm

      Fluffy Mundell is tied-in by the doctrine of Collective Cabinet Responsibility. He either accepts changes to the Welfare Bill, or, he resigns from the Cabinet – that’s how it works.

      A Tory, with his nose in the trough, voluntarily resign – Aye Right!!

    287. Croompenstein says:

      @DerekM

      Cheers Derek, I should have added that the large company I worked for no longer exists. It has however been taken over twice by two different companies who absorbed the assets and liabilities of the old company.

      This is why I still receive an annual statement of the pension fund account of a company who I never worked a day for and who will pay me a pension when I reach pension age.

      Maybe Pete or Albert could explain to me why a company I never set foot in will pay me a pension based on my contributions??

    288. Proud Cybernat says:

      It was Bond tae happen…

      http://imgur.com/a/697ZZ

    289. crazycat says:

      @ K1 at 10.51

      Thanks for promoting the petition. Here it is again for those just joining the thread:

      https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/195077

      Sorry I missed you yesterday; I was told you were there, but there were several people I never managed to find.

    290. Albert Herring says:

      @Croompenstein

      You answered your own question.

    291. Robert Peffers says:

      @K1 says: 14 April, 2017 at 12:11 pm:

      “Keep posting, keep hammering the lie to their ‘accounting’ practises and their book cooking double dealing ideological and class driven policies.”

      Well that’s my intention, K1. I try to figure out the methodology and not the arithmetical workings as I noted long ago the way these people confused the issue.

      It was only after I started to figure out what the reasoning was that I realised they actually were unaware of what the truth was themselves.

      Most were just trotting out a learned mantra, like a parrot repeating a sound it heard, over and over again.

      The parrot doesn’t know what, “Poly wants a cracker” means but just knows when it makes that particular noise it gets a reward.

      Yoons are just the same. ‘Cept, in many cases they are crackers and don’t understand what the words mean.

    292. HandandShrimp says:

      Test

    293. Croompenstein says:

      @Albert

      Exactly.. 🙂

    294. Jim says:

      I have had a leaflet through the door from an Indpepndent candidate, she writes:

      “I am running as an independent candidate because I want to do what is right for Caithness, not what is right for my party”.

      Do we now have the scenario of Tories, Labour, LibDems hiding their party allegiance because they are unelectable otherwise?

    295. galamcennalath says:

      louis.b.argyll says:

      It’s all about the oil, folks.

      Yes, and in more ways than one. It is a hard asset for the UK, and they will lose it. Also, the big oil companies must be terrified that iScotland takes the same approach to dealing with them as other oil producing countries, including Norway, do.

      With the oil comes the sea bed and UKnotsoOK won’t want most of that to leave with Scotland for all sorts of reasons from military to renewables.

    296. heedtracker says:

      O/T, The Guardian reports Scotland and British very differently, as usual.

      Israel
      British woman stabbed to death in Jerusalem
      Woman in her twenties allegedly killed by Palestinian assailant on light railway near Old City, say Israeli media

      Friday 14 April 2017 13.00 BST

      Myanmar
      Interpol issues red notice for Scottish teacher wanted for Myanmar murder
      Harris Binotti from Dumfries is charged with killing Gary Ferguson, who was found dead in Yangon last November

      Friday 14 April 2017 09.38 BST

    297. galamcennalath says:

      Jim says:

      hiding their party allegiance

      Aye, it’s a con. Most independents are Unionist. There will be exceptions. Even if they don’t stand on a party ticket, voters need to know which parties they would support in trying to form an administration.

      Again, some may be genuinely non aligned and willing to support on an issue by issue basis. We have two independents and on neither of their bumph do they say what local issues they actually stand for! Just a pitch to say we will stand up for local people – what does that mean? Which locals?

      Mind you, the official Unionists aren’t saying much about local issues either, just referendums!

    298. Dr Jim says:

      @jim

      She says “my party” in other words still a member of a party just doesn’t want to say who they are

      Doesn’t sound Independent to me

      Methinks she’s a wee fibber!

    299. Jim says:

      How would I go about finding what party she is or was allied to?

    300. TheItalianJob says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Good posts today and as usual enlightening and educational.

      Wish I had been like you years ago and been made more aware of the circumstances regarding the Barnett formula etc so when an English person used to say to me that the Uk (i.e. England) subsidies Scotland I could have at least counteracted them rather than sheepishly keeping my Mooty shut. So to speak. 🙂

    301. Meg merrilees says:

      Re the demonstration in George Square yesterday.

      Truthless said the S Gov. has the powers to mitigate the child benefit cuts by funding the difference.

      Unfortunately, one major flaw in that argument, TRuthless, is that Scots have already paid their income tax to the WM treasury. This tax goes to fund the welfare state which provides child benefit.

      If Nicola were to increase Scottish tax to raise funds to cover the tory cuts then we would be taxed twice. Can’t imagine WM is prepared to refund some of our tax to recompense the sum needed to offset the Tory cuts – that doesn’t seem to be an option.

      TRuthless really must think our heads button up the back!
      Why can’t she take a stance to protect children, defend female dignity and actually have some moral principles for a change. Imagine growing up in a 3 child family and realising that your mum gets 3 lots of child benefit! So which one of ‘us’ is the b*****d? Great start in life.
      Come on Ruth, forget all this “applying the law compassionately” and tell THeresa May that “it stinks!’

      Our future society depends on the children being born now – contrast the Tory ‘child benefit cap’ with the S.Gov. plan to give every child a fair start with the baby box.

      My parents had both died before I was 6 years old. My grandmother took on 4 children under the age of 11 and could never have fed and clothed us from her pension alone. She depended on child benefit just to put food on the table.

      At this rate it’ll be a one-child policy next!

      Yet today we learn that they will be paying an extra £200 million to the companies assessing disability and the ability to work, because they’ve handled more cases that they were contracted to.

      The fact that most of the decisions have been wrongly assessed and overturned by appeal( yet more expense) is immaterial; flawed economics in practice but again the total lack of any concept of respect for human dignity.

    302. Meg merrilees says:

      Jim

      Surely she should be saying ‘ I want to do what’s right for Caithness as NONE of the Parties has got the right answers for local problems”

      She’s writing ‘ not what’s right for my party’ – sorry I would need to know what party that is or no vote.

      Daft election material!

    303. Robert Peffers says:

      @heedtracker says: 14 April, 2017 at 12:21 pm:

      ” … ‘It BELONGS to US!’ Tory MP issues HANDS OFF warning to Sturgeon over North Sea oil
      https://www.energyvoice.com/oilandgas/north-sea/136365/north-sea-set-30bn-investment-new-projects-next-three-years/

      Aye! Like hell it does. The Yanks ‘n’ Yoons found that out when they each attempted to hijack the trial of the Lockerbie Bomber. The Yanks claimed that under USA law it was USA jurisdiction because the aircraft was USAsian.

      The Westminster Mafia also tried to hijack it saying it was United Kingdom Jurisdiction. They both lost under the International laws including, (I believe), The International Law of the Seas.

      The crime was committed in the airspace of Scotland and international law recognises that Scottish law is independent and the it always has done.

      The International Law of the Seas goes back a very long way and depends upon legal jurisdiction. The 12 Mile limit was extended under the International Law of the Seas to include a 200 mile continental shelf area and that is what situates the oil & gas that Westminster claims as from, “United Kingdom Extra-regio-territory”, and grab all the, (around 97% in Scottish waters), from Scotland for the UK which is now acting as the de facto parliament of the country of England while still getting away with claiming to be the United Kingdom.

      Now here is the anomaly that proves the lie.
      If a crime is committed on an oil or gas installation in either the North Sea or in the Atlantic it falls under the jurisdiction of the independent Scottish Legal system and that means the police who will investigate are Police Scotland and it is the Scottish Procurators Fiscal who will, in the name of Her Majesty, bring the matter to the Scottish Courts.

      Now guess who will pay for all that? Yep! The people who pay their Council tax on the nearest Scottish land to where the crime was committed. Then, like the Lockerbie Bomber, the convicted person, or persons, will serve ant sentence at the expense of the people of Scotland.

      Yet Scottish Police are the only force in Scotland who must pay VAT to the Westminster Treasury.

      I am in no doubt that when the United Kingdom returns to the Status Quo Ante of two independent countries the International Law of the Seas will not only rule that the 200 mile continental limit extension will see over 97% of the oil & gas be legally Scottish territorial Waters.

      Incidentally, if the Northern Isles were to become independent, or attempt to remain as parts on the English Kingdom, that they would become an enclave in Scottish waters and have no oil and gas and a very limited fishing rights area

      In fact they would get only legal access by a narrow shipping lane that would remain legally Scottish territory.

    304. DerekM says:

      hehe you are welcome Croompenstein.

      Of course you will get the complete eejit who goes but but but how will you i mean we pay for it hrmmmf hrmmmf thinking that for some bizarre reason we would still be sending tax money to the UK treasury after we are independent,the same tax money or borrowing hard to tell they are 1.9 trillion up shit creek that they use just now to pay pensions.

      But instead of going down the casino with it we start a pension fund along side our new oil fund and whisky fund and renewable energy fund and most importantly when the IMF turn up with a big bag of money we tell them no thanks.

    305. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      NaebD: “You can’t sensibly extrapolate from how the UK deals with expat pensioners to how the rUK would deal with pensioners of another, independent country.”

      Um, can you explain to me the difference between an “expat pensioner” (someone entitled by contribution to a UK pension, who lives in the independent country of France) and “pensioners of another country” (people entitled by contribution to a UK pension, who live in the independent country of Scotland)?

      You are of course correct that politicians can change laws, but doing so retrospectively to escape a financial obligation is very shaky ground indeed. “Can of worms” doesn’t even begin to cover it.

    306. Robert Peffers says:

      @heedtracker says:14 April, 2017 at 12:30 pm:

      “Its arithmetic really Rab.
      Great post. Keep em coming.”

      Yeah! I swithered about that one, heedtracker, but came down on the side of mathematics as it included the formulas the accountancy uses. Onywey! I’m not worried to be proven wrong and yes it is indeed, in the end, simple addition and subtraction.

    307. Robert Peffers says:

      @scunner says: 13 April, 2017 at 12:36 pm:

      ” … My impression from perusing the darker corners of social media is that for many Yoons, their standpoint is that Independence would somehow annul “expat” status, and that the rUK could walk away muttering angrily “we don’t pay pensions to citizens of a foreign country”.”

      You are, of course right, scunner.

      Thing is, though, when the United Kingdom does actually split up the Yoons are going to get a really big surprise when actuality strikes.

      There is not a legally elected Parliament of England and no one is therefore an elected MP of an English Parliament and Westminster calls itself the United Kingdom Parliament but the United Kingdom cannot legally continue as it has just been ended and there is no one elected to the either the Kingdom of England Parliament or the country of England parliament.

      I suppose, though, that as Her Majesty is still legally sovereign in the Kingdom of England she can call in anyone she pleases to form, Her Majesty’s Government of England but it cannot be a MP for there is no elected MPs to a parliament of England. THE HOUSE OF LORDS WILL RULE ENGLAND, WALES AND NORTHERN IRELAND.

    308. Les Wilson says:

      On the subject of the Tory twat who claims Scottish oil will be rUK’s oil.

      He needs to ponder why Thatcher hid the McCrone report for so long as well as did future Westminster governments.
      They did not hide because THEY thought they could KEEP the oil anyway. They were scared shitless that we would take it away from them.

      I would guess,they all knew the legal implications would not be good for them in international law, so they just hid it away.

    309. Robert Peffers says:

      @Jim says: 14 April, 2017 at 1:14 pm:

      “I am running as an independent candidate because I want to do what is right for Caithness, not what is right for my party”.

      You have to laugh at the sheer stupidity, Jim.

      Standing as an independent but telling voters that their prospective member is a party member of a party the independent is apparently standing against in the election?

      Don’t yoon parties have a ban on members standing in opposition to the official party?

    310. Dr Jim says:

      @jim

      Start by just googling her name if no joy phone her and ask
      if she deflects she’s a fake
      If she wants to represent the public honesty’s kinda important

    311. Meindevon says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Thank for the Barnett info Robert. Thanks to you and the Rev I regularly tell folk down here that Scotland’s ‘high’ Barnett figure includes money for the funding of devolved powers that England doesn’t get. I’ve not yet met anyone that knew this!

      Can I ask if England doesn’t get Barnett funding, what is it called? Is it based English and Welsh? public spending figures? It’s hard to get figures for England alone as we all know. Also why is Scotland always compared to all of England when England has 9? regions. And am I right in saying some of these regions get more per head than Scotland?

      Found this. Is it relevant for England’s funding? (Sorry I apologise if I’m being dumb)

      researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN04033

    312. Jim says:

      @Dr Jim

      Start by just googling her name if no joy phone her and ask
      if she deflects she’s a fake
      If she wants to represent the public honesty’s kinda important
      ____
      I have tried but not much success, she is, Nicola Sinclair and she is standing for Wick and East Caithness.

      the full blurb is:

      “Caithness has it’s own specific challenges and central party policies often don’t reflect this. I am running as an Independent candidate because I want to do what is right for Caithness, not what’s right for my party, I will always put Caithness first.”

    313. Jim says:

      @Robert Peffers

      You have to laugh at the sheer stupidity, Jim.

      Standing as an independent but telling voters that their prospective member is a party member of a party the independent is apparently standing against in the election?

      Don’t yoon parties have a ban on members standing in opposition to the official party?
      ____
      Standing against her own party members thinking one of them will get elected, it stinks to high heaven!

    314. yesindyref2 says:

      @Jim
      https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-press-and-journal-inverness/20170130/281616715091840

      “After freelancing for the YES campaign …”

    315. K1 says:

      Aye Robert, keep it up…it’s true that most of them parrot without cognisance…like Westminster itself they mainly play follow the leader, lobby fodder for the establishment’s agenda. Twas ever so…

    316. mike d says:

      Socrates macsporran 12.30pm. New Cumnock Hmmm.i do pass through there on my drive up from engerland to visit family between Ayr and Girvan. A bit like driving through the land that ‘time/liebor forgot ‘lol.

    317. K1 says:

      Aye Crazycat, was told you were there too! Didn’t see Muriel, maybe the cognitive dissonance and blind loyalty tae Labour will finally crack on the back of such policies left unchallenged by her party of choice?

      The petition is going well…over 7000 now…let’s keep pushing:

      https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/195077

    318. K1 says:

      Wee update from Alyn Smith:

      ‘Dear K1

      After the Brexit drama of the last few weeks things have settled to the ‘grind slow but grind small’ granular approach Brussels is so good at, and the negotiating teams and mandates are being worked upon in earnest now. For my part after a weekend being interviewed by the French media in Paris it was good to be back in Brussels getting on with the job.

      There is a genuine sense of good will towards Scotland across the Parliament. I must give my thanks to my colleague German Green MEP Terry Reintke who organised a letter to the presiding officer of the Scottish parliament from fifty European politicians who would welcome an independent Scotland to EU.

      http://www.heraldscotland.com...

      This response is a recognition of the remain vote of Scotland’s people and the genuine efforts made by the Scottish government to find a compromise on their behalf.

      As always, I hope you continue to find these emails useful, and please do feel free to share this update and encourage people to register for more at:

      http://www.alynsmith.eu/stay_informed .

      Yours aye,

      Alyn’

    319. Chick McGregor says:

      Article 1 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which is a multilateral international legally binding treaty which the UK is a cosignatory of. My bold type highlight.


      1. All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

      2. All peoples may, for their own ends, freely dispose of their natural wealth and resources without prejudice to any obligations arising out of international economic co-operation, based upon the principle of mutual benefit, and international law. In no case may a people be deprived of its own means of subsistence.

      3. The States Parties to the present Covenant, including those having responsibility for the administration of Non-Self-Governing and Trust Territories, shall promote the realization of the right of self-determination, and shall respect that right, in conformity with the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations.

      Of course, I suppose not too long after the newly ‘free’ United Kingdom withdraws from the ECHR they will ‘sadly discover’ that ‘British’ Law is also then no longer compatible with the ICCPPR and other international Human Rights treaties either and so may be ‘forced’ into withdrawing from them too. Shame eh?

      That way there will be no barriers to introduce the good old British values of rendition, summary extradition, indefinite detention, torture, enforced labour, enforced military service, work houses and quite likely even eventually the death penalty.

    320. Jim says:

      @yesindyref2

      https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-press-and-journal-inverness/20170130/281616715091840

      “After freelancing for the YES campaign …”
      ____
      Thanks for that, I am just wary.

    321. Weefatboab says:

      But it’s ok for the Scottish government to offer free university tuition to anyone from within the EU, as long as they’re not from England?

    322. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “But it’s ok for the Scottish government to offer free university tuition to anyone from within the EU, as long as they’re not from England?”

      It’s not a matter of it being “ok”, it’s the law, and it’s outwith the Scottish Government’s control.



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