A whole sackful of ferrets
“Flounders” might have been a more appropriate animal.
It’s painfully entertaining viewing, but Gordon Brewer’s persistence pays off right at the end as we finally discover that Scottish Labour’s answer is “No – even if a clear majority of Scottish people vote for parties explicitly calling for a second independence referendum, and return a majority of pro-indy MSPs to Parliament, we will not consider that sufficient support.”
Which would mean there was no democratic route left open to Scotland to achieve independence. So what is it that he suggests we do?
Interestingly, a poll in today’s Sunday Times shows a remarkable level of support among Labour members for the actions of the IRA (and indeed other terrorists).
This site will never, ever condone violence as a political method. Violence is always, unequivocally, without exception, the wrong path. But by constantly sending the clear message that they don’t respect democracy but are willing to forgive indiscriminate mass murder, it’s hard not to wonder what Labour is trying to provoke.
Just showing their true colours – democracy no thanks. It’s our way or the highway nothing to do with the many but everything to do with the few.
“contribute towards a consideration” , Scotland, we thank you for your contribution and after consideration you won’t be surprised that yer no getting it.
Watching that something was nagging… this interview reminds me of something. Couldn’t place it until just after 2 minutes in.
Brewer: “A part of it? Well what’s the rest of it then?”
Boom. The Day Today. Brewer as Chris Morris and Leonard as the straight man/patsy.
He obviously suggests we just bow down to London and suck it up.
I think eventually the Scottish people will have to fight for Independence
Might be through the courts but i feel it might get worse than that.
Through the courts will take a long and should have already been tested or at least started but i feel the SNP just want to wait.
If it becomes the only route to freedom then what other options do we have. Speaking as an x soldier who served 9 out of 19 years in NI
England still regrets its loss of empire which was not really given up voluntarily but because they no longer had the resources to retain it against the demands from the colonial nations. Plus the fact that the international community (mostly USA) wanted the end of this empire, not for altruistic reasons of course.
Scotland, Wales & NI and the tiny islands around the globe are the last vestiges of this diminished empire, they are not going to let go of it easily. We will need the support of the international community if democracy is not upheld, otherwise I just see another Ireland in the making.
Blatant hypocrisy.
Why do we even listen to these people?
It’s a Labour thing , they are the masters of not having a clue on anything !
Dick Who ?
Never heard of this guy…
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. (John F. Kennedy).
Labour is toast, especially in Scotland. Just keep on voting SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence.
Why folk who support Independence vote for Unionist Parties is a mystery. Total ignorance. The unionists Parties are totally against it. What planet are these people on voting against their own interests. Unbelievable.
With all 3 unionist parties more or less adopting a similar position I have to wonder, either they don’t understand the consequences of removing all democratic recourse for a politically valid idea or, more likely that they are fully aware and counting on it.
I fear that somebody is going to do something stupid, for that is what the unionist parties are relying on. I am tempted to suggest serious consideration has to be given to planned avenues of civil disobedience, not so as an effective tactic to achieve independence but to postpone somebody doing something stupid for as long as humanly possible. Other suggestions are more than welcome.
So what do you expect from a total Dick!
Brewer is so ignorant and arrogant it is unbelievable. A dunce. So is Leonard. How anyone watches that nonsense is a mystery. Or repeats it. It is just a wind up. Total rubbish. Going down. How low can they go.
He demonstrates an uncomfortable truth. Politics is almost entirely dominated by lobby groups. The courts are going to be the last resort for Scotland as they are for Joanna Cherry & Co opposing BREXIT and prorogation.
After the courts, then the pitchforks.
Has Leonard been taking lessons from Swinson in how to talk a lot “ shite “ ? . It’s the same old nonsense being said by both of them again with their no to indyref 2 . Hopefully we can wipe out the unionist parties in Westminster whenever the election happens .
Last week a great many people were up in arms about Swinson and her *coughs* “idea” of what the word Democracy means when she went on about a majority vote for the Lib Dems at the upcoming G.E., yes yes I know there is mair chance o the moon being made o cheese but humour me here please, would entitle her to revoke Article 50 of her *coughs* Premiership. 😀
I think we have just uncovered the evidence of where Swinson stole her idea of the definition of the word “democracy”:D
I think Retread Neolard needs to take a swatch at the UN charter and the ICCPR treaty.
Was he saying if either the SNP get a majority, or The Greens get a majority (+ other stuff) it counts, but if they get a majority between them, it doesn’t count? Plus other stuff, of course. Richard Leonard should be in the Lib dems.
I’m gobsmacked by Leonard’s interview.
The Will of the People gone in less than four minutes.
@Sharny Dubs says: 22 September, 2019 at 1:05 pm:
” … Why do we even listen to these people?”
Why indeed? However I can tell you why – you’re brainwashed, (but I’ll return to that a bit later in this thread.).
Scotland has always gone through the ballot box and always will.
Ireland was illegally partition. The people in NI were refused a vote. Discriminated against. That is why they turned to violence. The violence of the British State. The Westminster Unionist imbeciles. Unequal unjust abd unfair. Killing people for votes at Westminster. Responsible for illegal killing worldwide. The British state, Westminster total corruption.
Democracy is a weasel word, spokesmen for states that are anything but like to use it a lot.
Museums and tourist sites are packed with objects and structures that were created in sophisticated systems the modern ‘western’ world would not regard as democratic.
Even Greek democracy wasn’t exactly democratic and the US founding fathers had rather restricted perceptions of popular franchise
People were ruled, they did as they were told, for a quiet life, and got on with real living.
If the system and its leaders got too invasive they went to the palace and finished them off.
The replacement might not be much better but at least the ‘demos’ got its point through the thick establishment skulls. Overstep the the mark and this is what happens.
Liberal democratic administrations come and go, stuff does not get fixed, although shed loads of money is spent on the fixing, promises are rarely kept, the celebrity showbiz for ugly people ie politics goes on with the same old faces and dessicated ideas made over and repackaged to tease the punters.
To be brutally honest if the BritState want to push us to revolution we ought not to chicken out, we should give them a performance they’ll never forget.
But if we’re not that fussed there’s always hours of Strictly to turn your brain to gibbering mush.
It’s not English people’s fault, they’ve never had equality or freedom so don’t understand the nature of it, and when they hear of others demands for it, it sounds like rebelliousness and insubordination to them
Unionist Scots are more to blame because in general they’ve had the option of a better education whether the chose it or not, so they’re behaving in this way out of malice and servitude to what they believe are their rightful masters
The intelligent man knows Scots invented half the modern world, the pompous man argues he would’ve invented the same things the next day
English class arrogance and pomposity is what rules the UK no matter how obviously stupid it behaves, and everybody knows you can’t argue with stupid when it refuses to be educated
You get out of its way or you move it out of your way
@chic mcgregor says: 22 September, 2019 at 1:28 pm:
” … I think Retread Neolard needs to take a swatch at the UN charter and the ICCPR treaty.”
No. Chic, he, and nearly everyone else needs to simply realise the truth and read the text of the Treaty of Union. People are so much brainwashed that even when told the truth they reject it.
Well Slab’s opinion has always been that, along with their HQ. Supporting the IRA and Irish Unity has been ok, but not Scotland,shame on them.
But this attitude is exactly why Slab is where it is in the polls. They can never accept that the SNP have flattened them and they lost their long undeserved fiefdom in Scotland.
Like Westminster and their lost empire,same Brit attitude.
They will suffer more yet.
@Rob says: 22 September, 2019 at 1:30 pm:
“” … Richard Leonard should be in the Lib dems.”
I wouldn’t matter a damn what unionist party he was in – they are all parts of the Westminster Establishment, as are the Civil Service, armed forces, police, education establishments and the security services and MSM and broadcasters. All pushing out the brainwashing and everyone takes it in like sponges soaking up water.
He’s the leader of a party currently polling less than ten percent support of the electorate seeking to win control of Scottish Parliament and become First Minister yet he says that anything less than an outright majority, in a system that operates partial proportional representation, is illegitimate in terms of a democratic mandate.
Christ on a bike. So in his eyes to be legitimate Scottish democracy must operate at a far higher standard than that which holds within the UK as a whole.
What an equine quadruped’s rectum.
If every soul in Scotland wanted Independence Westminster would just tell us to frick right off,
`yer no gettin it yi hud yer chance and no enough of youz wir brave enough to take it so frick right of and take what we gie yi and do whit we tell yi,end off`.
I`m still pissed of with the rugby and i`v got the Capital derby to watch,where both sets of fans want to get beat so they can get rid of their managers,and is fricken raining.
2010 general election and Labour got 42% of the vote.
Now some polls have them now on 10%. Down 75% in under a decade,
A sizeable minority of Labour’s residual voters support independence.
Exactly who is Leonard playing to? Who does he think his stance will appeal to?
The Tories, the LibDems and Labour are all jostling for the BritNat vote. If Leonard thinks he can out-BritNat the Tories, or even the LibDems, he is utterly deluded. As a centre-left party, Labour are in the wrong side of the divide.
The unionist description of a mandate as described by Labour Branch manager Riply Legwarmer is simple. A mandate is the majority of seats at WM (around 35% is fine, 37% is an overwhelming mandate), at Holyrood a mandate is over 50% no matter how many seats you have.
There is also a proviso at WM for Scotland (well the SNP anyway), over 50% is also required, just taking all 59 seats in Scotland will still not be considered a mandate.
Hope that clears up any confusing about the perfectly legitimate unionist view on elections.
And Yes the Labour party in Scotland are autonomous, they can vote for what they like, it will be ignored as everything else is regarding Scotland by the London head office.
This reminds me of elections by the GMB, Unison and UNITE.
Also the old “not the 9 o’clock news” sketch where 1 person has 5million votes and several others less than that and are outvoted.
Who voted for Leonard? I want a poll!
A party that started in Scotland with Keir Hardie championing home rule has now become a party that decrees ENFORCED London rule in perpetuity.
A unionist vote now is nothing short of a betrayal of Scotland and her people. A betrayal of democracy.
Richard Leonard will be playing to the Trade Unions who provide the biggest chunk of Labour funding. These are almost all “British” entities.
Membership is also huge but not in Scotland, so it is mainly English and Welsh members paying their fees. Though I doubt many are as firmly opposed to Scottish independence as the more BritNat “a plumber in Liverpool is the same as a plumber in Glasgow” brigade.
Celebrity donors such as J.K. Rowling are also firmly unionist.
Do they till get money from media moguls? I suspect they, like Rowling, will be anti-Corbyn and pro union.
So to keep the groats rolling in, RL must parrot the unionist line, even if he is now 9% in the polls.
God knows Leonard is a halfwit.
If people I’m Scotland vote for a party with Independence
Headlining their manifesto and the get a majority in Parliament
Then democracy demands we get independence.
Labours idea of democracy is you can only vote Labour and
Then shut up and be controlled by your English Masters.
Their might Westminster Parliament has been through this many
Times with over 30 colonies demanding independence from English
Corruption and all bar Scotland have fought for it and thrived.
You ever hear of an Australian, Canadian or New Zealand party standing
On a mandate for let’s ask England to take control of us again and plunder
Our resources while ignoring our wishes?
Leonard’s North Accounting unit based in London is expected to get 10% of
The votes in the next election and if SNP got 50% he wants to dictate what
They can do?
That Dick Leionard alright!
Leonardo De Catastrophe!
Leonard Dimboy
Stuart,
“So what is it he suggests we do?”
Well according to article 1 of the ICCPR treaty they have to describe and, incidentally, promote a mechanism whereby independence can be obtained, to wit:
“Article 1
1. All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.
2. All peoples may, for their own ends, freely dispose of their natural wealth and resources without prejudice to any obligations arising out of international economic co-operation, based upon the principle of mutual benefit, and international law. In no case may a people be deprived of its own means of subsistence.
3. The States Parties to the present Covenant, including those having responsibility for the administration of Non-Self-Governing and Trust Territories, shall promote the realization of the right of self-determination, and shall respect that right, in conformity with the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations.”
In the past they have said a majority of MPs was enough only to renege then a majority of MSPs, ditto.
They agreed to referendum which they narrowly won after lying their back teeth off so you would think a precedent was set then but now they are saying no to a second referendum
I knew of course that Stuart would’ve been watching this guff. Guff it was, confirmed by Severin Carroll who affectively told the listeners, in the journalists end of show post analysis, that Richard Leonard was as close to the decision makers in the Labour Party as Politics Jimmy is down the pub.
It’s called the “reflex of obedience theory”. The expectation that a population is so used to the whip crack of authority they will always obey. Even if the Scottish Government called a referendum the UK would just need to crack the whip. It’s always worked in England so perhaps that’s why the UK government ignores it’s complete failure everywhere else they have tried it.
Well we can’t say Craig Murray never warned us.
galamcennalath
Labour are not centre left.
They are of a colonial mindset regarding Scotland and that, in my view, is not a centre left position.
It is time we ripped up the old political spectrum and positioning . It does not apply to Scotland.
What you have to realise in terms of a legitimacy of mandate
– EVEN if 100% of all Scots currently living, VOTED for INDEPENDENCE
it would still NOT constitute a mandate, as that “so-called” 100% does not include
– all the Scots who have lived but are currently DEAD, and
– all the Scots yet to be, who are as yet un-born
Different rules apply to Scotland, you silly jocks!
The rules for the new indyref will be something like
– you need to win 3 in a row, with >75% of the vote
Nicola Sturgeon has to throw “snake eyes” 6 times in a row, then –
she spins the WHEEL of FORTUNE, one bed of the wheel being
INDEPENDENCE*
* – with the clyde estuary, faslane, luss and the north sea and atlantic margins becoming british protectorates
Would the threshold of “sufficient support” be met if a certain Mrs E A M Windsor happened to mutter an audible response to a question put to her by an ordinary member of the public, (definitely not a conveniently positioned and briefed member of her household staff), on her way to Crathie Kirk, that she wasn’t averse to Scottish Independence? (Provided of course that a T.V news crew just happened to pick up her comment and make sure it’s broadcast).
If Cameron and Johnson persist in keeping her less than amused you never know… it may prove to be more satisfying than kicking a Corgi to vent one’s displeasure!
@Hamish 100
This one?
link to youtube.com
And we already have a mandate. Nothing changes getting another.Its high time we used it.
So here we go – the thing that stops Scotland, and for that matter Wales and Northern Ireland, from being free and independent long ago and Mind you it isn’t just these three that just don’t see the truth that has been there in front of them all along.
Before the ink on the Treaty of Union document was dry the whole World was being brainwashed and that process has never diminished.
It has been going on so long that people throughout the World just cannot see the truth and they, as much as their abusers, spread the brainwashing onward continuously.
So what is it they believe that simply isn’t true?
We all know what it is for we use it’s true name but just don’t see the implications.
The United Kingdom is not, and never has been a country and its very title tells the truth for it is called, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”. It is not called, “The United Country of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”, for the simple reason that it is not a unified country composed of three and a bit real countries yet never a day goes by without any person hearing someone refer to it as, “The Country”, or, “The Whole Country”. Now you may not think that is important but nothing about it is unimportant.
This comment is already far too long so I’ll just quote you one important example of the misuse of the term and that example of the abuse of the English language and how the brainwashing of us all has shaped the main problem Scotland faces today.
When, “The United Kingdom”, signed up to join the European Union no one in the European Union gave it a second thought for they were all brainwashed to believe that the United Kingdom was a country.
There it was written on the documents, “The United Kingdom”, and everyone within the European Parliament and the European Commission just accepted that it was just another country signing up as a member country. Indeed the entire World did so as well.
Now we come to the crunch and although the Treaty of Union 1706/7 says the United Kingdom is a treaty where only two equally sovereign independent kingdoms signed an agreement to unite and share a parliament between them but with a monarch who had different legal status in each of the two kingdoms and thus each kingdom’s legal systems were incompatible the World at large, including the European Union regarded them as just another member country.
Sadly most Scots also accepted that as the truth. Sadder still much, if not most, independence supporters just cannot see the truth when it stares them in the face.
So think on this – if the EU were to accept the truth, (and why would they not want to), that the European Union member state of, “The United Kingdom”, is exactly what its title describes it as, (and what the treaty documentation of the Treaty of Union 1706/7 describes it as), then it would blow the top of this so called, “Brexit Negotiations”, right off.
As the member state called, “The United Kingdom”, is a union of two equally sovereign kingdoms and one such kingdom voted to remain while the other voted to leave then why not grant both what they want?
Want to know why the EU has not done so already?
Simply because the people of the United Kingdom do not accept the legal truth that the United Kingdom is a united kingdom so why should anyone else?
However the truth is the truth and not only is the United Kingdom a bipartite kingdom but the Scots have had, “The Scottish Claim of Right”, since before the Treaty of Union and have ratified it several times since and had it accepted by all parties in the Holyrood Parliament and it has gone through the courts uncontested by the Westminster Government.
Yet not a day passes here on Wings without Wingers acting as if the Westminster Parliament is the parliament of England and the enemy of Scotland. Legally there has been no elected as such parliament of England since 30 April 1707.
Quite simply, if Scots independence supporters will not, or cannot accept the true legal facts – why should anyone else.
Now I’m away back to lurking for I’ve grown old and tired trying to get brainwashed people to accept the truth.
The best time to have an IndyRef is when it can be won. The SNP (Gov) is totally following the mandate it was given from the people to the letter. Exactly as usual. The Westminster unionists imbeciles are not are not. Tying themselves in knots, as usual. They could not make a bigger mess. A complete and utter shambles. An utter disgrace
So the gospel according to “Scottish” Labour is “elections settle nothing”. The fact that voters voted for you cannot be assumed to mean that they want you to be their MP, MSP etc. We have to find another way to find out what they REALLY want.
Mr Leonard has just earned promotion from f*uckwit to raging f*uckwit – and well deserved!
Respect to Gordon Brewer, though. How did he resist blurting out “are you stupid? What a dick!” (What’s in a name?)
I think I spotted the best description of the Labour Bain principle on twitter. It effectively says Labour are now against democracy because the SNP are in favour of it.
The pessimist in me wonders if the new unionist master plan is to make it clear that there is no democratic route to independence, in order to goad some of the more excitable members of our community to try the bombs and bullets route. That would do tremendous damage to our cause, both in Scotland and abroad.
The more cynical parts of the UK establishment may view the pain, suffering and bereavement (of others, of course – and we know that the suffering of others leaves them cold) of “collateral damage” as a price worth paying.
jfngw says:
22 September, 2019 at 2:45 pm
That’s the one or is it ? Have a vote. Thanks for that
I’m not sure that ‘you are all so brainwashed and stupid here that you cannot think, understand or read for yourself and need the SNP and their propagandists to save you from your miserable ignorant existence’ is quite the message the ‘big hitters’ mean to convey. Except that is what comes across.
Never mind read and recite the Treaty of Union and the Claim of Right and all will be well.
I think I’ve had my fill of Rusty Lightweight for one day. But I see the Tories are now not ruling out proroguing parliament again if the SC rules against them. They intend to obey the law by effectively circumventing it, what worth would any legal document be to the EU if the WM parliament will probably just ignore it or try and circumvent it at the minimum.
Terrorism involving killing people never worked with WM, as shown by the IRA over many years.
When they were hit in the pocket and trade,(Canary Wharf) suddenly there was a deal done resulting in the Good Friday agreement.
So no violent disruption from us, though a bridge or two being damaged in London might be a good place to start if we were forced to go down that road, not that I would advise such an terrible way to go!
ok I confess, I am now at the stage, whenever i see that boy,
I always think where’s Yosser Hughes when you need him…
“..i’m going into any election determined to win…” blah blah blah.
I distinctly remember the previous BritNat baton holder stating the exact same thing. Sure, she was even telling us all she was going to be the next ‘First Minister’. Weren’t you, Ruth? And look how that turned out eh! Was that decisive enough for you Dickie?
When does Jo Swindle get to carry the BritNat instructions baton? Mind you she’s probably already carrying it and Wee Dickie Turpentine is just being used as a temporary stopgap on Swindle’s day off. He gets to play with the baton when his betters are on a day off.
Just goes to show how truly repugnant Wee Dickie Turpentine is. Having ‘Ruth the Mooth’ & ‘Jo Swindle’ considered to be your betters. :)))
Do not even think about it. This total nonsense. Scotland has always gone the Ballot route. Since 1928 because they can. Instead of the unionist total corruption. It can be overcome. Especially one person one vote. Not illegally imposed PR.
Ireland was illegally Partitioned. People were illegally denied the vote. Still electoral unionist corruption. For unionist votes in Westminster. Illegal Westminster unionist corruption.
Davidson gone. How long before Swineson gone? Johnston will not last until October.
Another one down, another one gone. Another one bites the dust.
A GE will wipe most of them out in Scotland.
Leonard is in an impossible position, hanging by wires being pulled by both the Unions and London Labour, hence the stupid answers he gave to Brewer,a man trying to please two masters, its only a matter of time till these wires pull him apart altogether and Slab are looking for yet another leader.
You know it’s the end of the road when someone doesn’t tell the boss he’s left the cotton bud sticking out his ear before he goes on air…
That’s it in a nutshell – what Labour are trying to provoke. (And be extension all the other Unionist, anti-democracy parties).
THEY are the ones doing the PROVOKING here. “You can’t vote for independence because even if you do, you’re no’ getting it – so what you going to do about it?”
No. “If YOU, Richard Leonard & Co, are intent on blocking the only peaceful route to Scottish independence, what other means do YOU expect us to use in order to implement our democratic will? What’s YOUR answer? What would YOU do in such a situation, Richard Leonard?”
Here’s the truth, sunshine. You simply CANNOT deny democracy forever. Democracy will always have its way. And all I see YOU trying to do, Leonard, is stoke tensions and provoke violence.
Watch. My. Lips.
“That’s not EVER going to happen in Scotland.” We’re not so stupid as to fall for your bollox-naked attempt to provoke violence.
Democracy will win–ALWAYS. You’ll see.
I am not am member of the SNP.
Don’t split the SNP vote.
Vote SNP/SNP nothing else.
Bon Dias Troops. Slab devoid of sense, devoid of knowledge devoid of anything really, and they wonder why their support is disappearing. Aye they blame the SNP for stealing their votes because they are tooo dumb for reality. Dick Lennon give us some clue to what Scotland should be, not what you’re told from HQ, or maybe not. The very scary reality is, your party is making all the other Yoon parties electable. An Indy Scotland is more than one party, but sorry to break the news “Dick” you have No Chance of being FM.
Can’t believe what I just saw.
This guy is a pure idiot. But we knew this already.
Ask your political representatives a simple question:
Are the people of Scotland sovereign?
Yes or No.
I’ve just noticed his left hand, which together with his smirk, tell me he’s just taking the pish. This is what he clearly thinks of the electorate. Talk about entitled arrogance?
The Scottish government needs to state that… Scotland voted to remain in the EU., and so a legal challenge needs to be mounted against the assumed authority of Westminster, that Westminster can ignore the expressed decision by referendum, and mandated in our parliament, that Scotland remains in the EU.
Over to you Joanna Cherry.
The interview of R Leonard by Brewer was a set up
questions and answers planned in advance
they always use the delayed communication as well ,all part of the trick
so that Brewer can pretend he is really pressing Leonard with hard questions
and Leonard can pretend he didn’t really hear the question
or the other favourite I was in the middle of an answer when your question came through so I will pause a second then ignore your question and carry on with what I was saying
Best of pals
Violence is not the answer
We know that
We carry on doing what we are doing
And then
We carry on doing what we are doing
We really care about Scotland
They don’t
They will make mistakes because they don’t care about Scotland
All we have to do is stick together and stop all this nonsense of calling every person who doesn’t agree with your method of getting independence
A British nationalist
Or a ("Tractor" - Ed) to the SNP
Or a loser who has lost sight of independence
Stick together
No violence
Hmmm
Ireland didnt get independence via GENERATIONS of peaceful talk. It ended in violence when despite that, and even against a probable majority view that a war was a Bad Idea but with a majority view that independence was a GOOD idea, the UK refused to compromise. Now, nobody wants to see that again, do they? Presumably nobody sensible anyhow.
Apologies for earlier rant. Simply put “Slab, still stupid after all these years” sums it up perfectly. Adios
It all seems so simple – stop disagreeing with people who have a different view on how to obtain independence –
But what if their method involves violence and death.
But what if their method involves not allowing people who do not meet their ethnicity criteria from voting.
Simple is it?
I hope you are going to prep for a Wings Party.
This site will be taken down when the election comes.
If you are an official candidate and the MSM and BBC think you will damage the SNP (I think you wont) they will give you lots of air time
BBC Scotland continue to protect Leonard by not showing any of his car crash interview on evening TV news bulletin
Nicola Sturgeon went from this
“What I’m saying is for Scotland to be in a position to negotiate in a timely fashion our own relationship with Europe. It is important that we indicate that desire and intention before the UK leaves or at the very least within a short time frame after they do so. To leave it any longer than that would make the process more difficult.”
to this
” We accepted that Scotland would leave the EU – despite the 62% vote to remain – but argued that the UK should either stay in the single market or seek an outcome that would allow Scotland to do so.”
Why?
“Plan A“ is leaving the EU.
Question for Leonard.
Unless SLabour win an outright majority at SE2021 (I know – stop laughing at the back), then by your own (ahem) ‘standards’, SLabour will not have obtained the necessary mandate from the people to enact its manifesto.
Can you please clarify if I have that right?
Ta.
What gives Rubik Lexicon a mandate to set the specific puzzle and spout such a word salad over the airwaves of our controversial state broadcaster relating to what does and doesn’t constitute the only possible circumstances in which we will get to determine our future?
It is my view that a current leader of a Scottish branch office of a UK political party who in the past two Scottish elections couldn’t win a constituency seat (which the SNP won in both cases), and who only got into the Scottish Parliament through the regional list system, fails to meet the criteria for anybody to think his warblings are valid.
Big thumbs up to YES Kinross & Milnathort group for making the YES Bikers so welcome today. It was a pleasure to attend. I’m sure there would be an appetite for YES Bikers to attend other YES groups if their cakes table was even halfway close to what you provided.
We better get Indy soon though, as there will be an awfy lot of fat bikers if we have to sustain such cake munching duties!
It really is very simple. The people of Scotland, voted in a democratic referendum to remain in the EU.
It really is high time the SNP leadership grasped that simple HARD FACT, and started shouting it in every single interview they give, rather than weittering on endlessly about stopping brexit.
The Scotgov have at least three rock solid mandates to keep Scotland in the EU, and if that is achieved only via independence, then that is what should happen…..unless of course the SNP think that the people of Scotland are NOT sovereign.
You do not even need an independence referendum, we had a FULL referendum to REMAIN in the EU, and the democratically elected Scottish government should start acting as Scotland’s government, instead of meekly playing along as a ‘scottishy’ subdivision’ of Westminster.
We voted to remain in the EU, and if Scotland is allowed to be dragged out by England, then I will NEVER forgive the SNP Scottish government. They are just not even trying to keep Scotland in, and that is what irritates me most. Instead they have devoted the last year to blocking England leaving the EU, despite England actually voting for it.
Almost within a week of the brexit referendum, NS was UNILATERALLY offering to compromise – something for which she had NO mandate to do, and NOBODY asked her to do. No wonder London does not take her seriously.
Where is their anger? Where in every single interview, is their total outrage and anger at what is being done against Scotland? Seriously,. where is their anger?? Why oh why are they still being so polite about it?? Because I can assure you, am mad as hell about brexit being forced upon Scotland by an out of control English dictatorship.
Dave oga
Why?
WHY NOT?
Yesterday, at the rally in Glasgow, the WOS stall ran out of “EU Saltires”. They are in demand.
Please help this crowdfunder, if you can.
“Back in 2014 we brought in the first ever mass produced Yes Flags.
It wasn’t easy, At the time it was the biggest single import we’d done and it was hit by snags , and delays, and initial doubts from donors.
But eventually, with help along the way, we succeeded and provided #Indyref1 with a great shot in the arm at a crucial period. This time around we’re making another 6000 of the original Yes Saltires, 3000 EU Saltires, 1500 Yes Saltire Car Flags, and 1500 sets of Yes Saltire car wing mirror covers**.”
link to gofundme.com
Scotland, the country, can tackle geo-political challenges as an independent nation – that is entirely normal and expected. Being dragged into the destructive politics of the British state that is at the end of its lifespan by political representatives of Scotland’s electorate who would rather Scotland goes over the cliff edge than survive and thrive is the penultimate expression of a non- functioning democracy. It’s very heartening that Scotland has an escape route isn’t it.
‘In a working paper published last month, Professor Gerhard Hanappi argued that since the 2008 financial crash, the global economy has moved away from “integrated” capitalism into a “disintegrating” shift marked by the same sorts of trends which preceded previous world wars…Key red flags that the world is on a slippery slope to a global war, he finds, include:
• the inexorable growth of military spending;
• democracies transitioning into increasingly authoritarian police states;
• heightening geopolitical tensions between great powers;
• the resurgence of populism across the left and right;
• the breakdown and weakening of established global institutions that govern transnational capitalism;
• and the relentless widening of global inequalities’
link to medium.com
‘economies have used up the capacity of planetary ecosystems to handle the waste generated by energy and material use. Climate change is the most pronounced sink cost. What will happen during the oncoming years and decades when we enter the era of energy transition, combined with emission cuts, and start to witness more severe effects of climate change? That is the big question. What kind of economic understanding and governance models do we need, now that economies are undergoing dramatic rather than incremental change?… In view of the challenges encountered today in implementing meaningful international agreements, the most likely option for initiating transitions to sustainability would be for a group of progressive states to take the lead. This would require economic thinking that enables large public investment programs on the one hand and strong regulation and environmental caps on the other.
link to bios.fi
An independent Scotland as a progressive state can lead by example in tackling climate change, inequality and positively contribute to a reformed and strengthened Europe. England is going in another direction entirely but must decide its future on its own terms as should Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland. That is an immutable reality.
The only ‘win’ that Mr. ‘take ScoTTishh warrrterrr back inta bublic ‘ans’, is a seat in the HOL’s for that reward of £305+++ a day paid for life.
Nope, no, non, nah, you’s are no getting your independince referendumm and nope no, an election result,ie a win, is only ‘part of it’. What the hell?
Definitely an attempt to ensure Scotland knows that er a democratic mandate for an independence referendum will be met with a huge ‘NO’! Mr provocateur or so he thinks. Not fit for office, but is paid what £100k a year to keep blabbing on with the London Britnats’ message to Scotland.
Great comments today.
Re Terry callachan@ 5.44pm
Yep, well said, noticed the pretendy pause after each question from Dick Leotard. Totally agree, stick together, no violence, ( it’s what the Britnats would love to see happen).
It is an interesting question : at what point did the Labour Party “jump the shark”?
some people might venture
– corbyn
– the mandelson, blair, broon new labour project
– in scotland, the pat lally-ocrats, mateocracy and favour as currency
– kinnock, purging the last socialists
– the SDP “gang of four” – they wrecked it from within, then left to wreck it more
– the defeat of the bennites
– ? the defeat of the gaitskellites
– ?? your choice here –
I think it was -fucked- the moment the Fabian Society was formed, after that it was always going to be a middle-class construct; harvest the workers votes by crying “SOSHALIZM”, then occasionally, get into power, then not do very much, blaming “realism”. Wash, rinse, repeat, bag the gong, pockle yersel a stoat coat. Arguably Atlee and Wilson, “did good stuff”, but it’s all relative. I used to quite like Denis Healey, then I found out how he shafted Scotland when the oil was found.
I think the trouble is a lot of young people blunder into it, thinking it’s okay, but then something new happens, then they realise “it’s fucked” – but this is perpetual truth each generation learns.
– it’s a bit like the Guardian newspaper – it has ALWAYS been shit; even back in the 30s it was shitting on striking miners; nowadays the headlines seem to be self-parody.
Perhaps one of Joanna Cherry’s cases could test whether Politicians removing any democratic route to self determination could be classed as incitement to violence, by leaving armed conflict to achieve thwarted democratic aspirations as the only option open.
Not sure the likes of Leonard or any of the other clowns would be so eager if their actions could be deemed criminal.
Alwyas good to remember real Labour in Scotland.
From James Maxton
“Give us our parliament in Scotland. We will start with no traditions. We will start with ideals. We will start with purpose, with courage. We will start with the aim and the object that there will be 134 men and women pledged to 134 Scottish constituencies, to spend their whole brain power, their whole courage and their whole soul in making Scotland into a country in which we can take people from all the nations of the earth and say : this is our land, this is our Scotland ,these are our men, our works, our women and children: can you beat it?
Could have been delivered today. But not by the collection of useless dummies representing Labour today in Scotland.
I suspect the only way we can show the whole world (and the rest of the UK) where we are and where we are going is to bring London to a standstill with a huge march to BBC HQ. Anybody up for it?
@BDTT at 7.37 p.m.- thanks for posting the link. I’ve just made my second [small] donation to the Flags fundraiser and can’t think why more folk aren’t supporting it. In contrast, the Zarkwan billboards one is storming to its target in three days.
@RobertTheTruth says:22 September, 2019 at 3:29 pm:
” … Never mind read and recite the Treaty of Union and the Claim of Right and all will be well.”
And there we have it. The attempt idiotic attempt to deflect. It stopped working for your lot some time ago, Robert the idiot.
The whole truth is that right there in the actual Treaty of Union are the legal facts that cannot be deflected for they are the words in the international treaty that are forever law in both kingdoms rule of law. Which is where the Claim of Right comes in.
The Claim of Right is also law that cannot be deflected from. The Claim of Right only requires that a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland legally demand their right.
Do you know what that right is Robert?
I believe you do – which is why you are here so promptly to attempt to rubbish the entire concept. It isn’t going away, Robert – the end of your ever so precious union is neigh. Hence the total panic stations shown by the reactions of the Westminster Establishment. The World looks on in amusement and wonder as the Westminster Establishment tears itself apart.
Tick! Tock! Tick! Tock! It’s comin yet fir aa that and nothing Westminster can do is going to stop it. Which is why you and your kind are here on Wings but, Robert, it is far too little and far too late.
@Golfnut
I was re-reading articles on rights to self determination to refresh my memory on the wording.
Denial of our democratic ability to determine our future seems highly appropriate these days. We don’t have to wait a generation for that to happen! A couple of years can see major changes as we well know.
With regard to time frames that would be needed to prove lack of democratic ability there is also this aspect:
“Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.”
So, should Scotland lose its EU membership by being dragged out against the expressed wishes of 62% of our population; then it pretty much means we will be diverging from our current alignment of law and regulation that we adhere to within the EU.
Assessments have stated that Scotland leaving the EU will have a negative effect across a broad range of areas. Do we have to wait for these negative effects to actually manifest before we can action a remedy?
Of course, that then takes us straight back to the denial of democratic ability to determine our preferred choices.
link to web.archive.org
I post the above link for the wording. Should I be concerned that the following link gives an Error 404…
link to un.org
Sarah @ 20:33.
Interesting comparison. I don’t wish to rain on anyone’s parade, because every effort is worthwhile, and in any case it shouldn’t be a zero-sum game, but just maybe this is indicative of a change in mood, that opinion has shifted to thinking now is prime time to persuade the persuadeable, and one of these activities is just more likely to bear fruit on that account.
@jfngw says:22 September, 2019 at 3:32 pm:
” … what worth would any legal document be to the EU if the WM parliament will probably just ignore it or try and circumvent it at the minimum.”
Have you not figured that one out yet, fjngw? Do I really need to spell it out for you?
Oh! All right then – Westminster’s word is not worth a Tinker’s Damn now throughout the World and the World watches, waits and no one, not even Trump, gives a damn about them for they can all see where this English farce is going. The two kingdom United Kingdom is about to disunite followed, not in any particular order, by Irish Unity and Welsh independence.
Just where does that leave Westminster? Do not forget that the three crown dependencies are already not under Westminster rule and with Scotland, Ireland, Wales and the European Union on three sides and the big Atlantic Ocean between England and their very few USA
friendsowners the soon to be much reduced Kingdom of England is doomed and guess what – they brought it upon themselves.They are running around just now in total panic mode not knowing which way to turn and no one is dashing to their rescue for most of the World has old scores to settle with Perfidious Albion.
@John Jones says: 22 September, 2019 at 3:32 pm:
” … though a bridge or two being damaged in London might be a good place to start if we were forced to go down that road, not that I would advise such an terrible way to go!”
No need for such actions, John, for the greatest damage anyone could do to the Westminster Establishment is already being done to Westminster – by Westminster.
I said it long ago here on Wings – Give then enough rope and they will hang themselves. They stand on the gallows with the trapdoor lever in the hands of Boris right this very minute.
Did anyone else notice in the video how Leonard Dimboy’s head, just
Like Red Tory politics, leans constantly to the right?
I’m afraid his neck may need re-brassed.
The Tilt of Guilt !
Maybe people have got their flags for now
The billboards a new venture
@Ken500 says: 22 September, 2019 at 3:52 pm:
” … Scotland has always gone the Ballot route. Since 1928 because they can.”
Yes, Ken500, and do you know why? It is because there is no other set-up quite like the United Kingdom on Earth.
They keep trying to compare Scotland’s position with all the other groups on the planet who are, or were, seeking independence from another state but all their comparisons fail for the very good reason that no other group of people seeking independence have a live international treaty with the state claiming to be their masters and none of them are backed up by a centuries old, “Claim of Right”, that their, “Masters”, back away from every time it is brought to the fore.
All Scotland needs to legally end the union is for a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland to tell Westminster the United Kingdom has just disunited. Note that doing so leaves The Kingdom of England without a legally elected parliament for Westminster is legally the United Kingdom parliament and no one has been elected to an English parliament since 30 April 1707.
Furthermore the law of Scotland states that the people of Scotland can sack their monarch and choose another in that monarch’s place.
Westminster is legally stuffed and they know it. Pity is that as yet not enough of the legally sovereign people of Scotland know they are legally sovereign and even fewer understand what that means.
Its interesting that the British establishment have always respected the Irish or should I say feared them and since their independence they have blossomed in all aspects of English life.
Firstly there is British television where Irish entertainers vastly outnumber Scots or Welsh and they have comedies and a soap broadcast by the BBC alone. No welsh or Scottish equivalent is aired. Odd.
In the supermarkets there is as much if not more Irish produce in English supermarkets as Scottish and as far as I can see almost nothing from Wales.
And looking at war movies of the forties there is almost always an Irish actor in a British uniform although Ireland was neutral, yet scant presence of Scots and almost never a Welsh accent.
Scotland and Wales have never been respected by England and we are treated as no more than colonies with town council governments. I wonder why.
I believe that Scottish and Welsh independence movements should now work more closely together with mixed rallies which would send a clear and equivocal message that the union is dead.
@Robert J S and Ken 500: there’s so many good ideas and folk can’t support them all. I wonder if Mark Piggott has approached SIF for some help?
@Colin Alexander says: 22 September, 2019 at 5:09 pm:
” … Ask your political representatives a simple question:
Are the people of Scotland sovereign?
Yes or No.”
Why ever would we do that, Colin? They know the answer as do the Tory, Labour and LibDems. The problem is that not enough of the legally sovereign people of Scotland yet know that they are legally sovereign. Which is why Nicola Sturgeon has always asked the people for their mandate for any constitutional actions the Scottish Government wants to undertake.
It is also why people like you keep attempting to imply that the FM/SG/SNP don’t know it.
re;Phronesis@7.55pm
O/T
About climate change, I was at a talk about that re SNP gov, Paul Wheelhouse and head of FOE ( Scotland) spoke at length, other evening. The Scotgov have I think it was, a 70% target to really reducing CO2 by 2050(?), or thereabouts. Apparently Labour want it to be 80% and I think the Greens demand 85%. 70% would mean Scotland would be lead in CO2 reduction, but, FOE aren’t happy with that, and no idea how Labour or the Greens would put their higher percentages into action. I wonder if they know.
There is a vote on it this coming week at Holyrood. Lets’ see what happens re that.
Oh and FOE ( Scotland, not sure if autonomous from UK FOE), will only support independence when certain (green) conditions are met. How very silly because in fact it will only be with independence that Scotland can continue to work towards being much more green and climate friendly. Within the UK scuppers that ambition for sure.
So a bit back to front policy imo. Paul Wheelhouse did point out it is ‘difficult for charities’ I think he meant to be non neutral, but if FOE support the union, they are not being neutral anyway are they.
@Brian Lucey says: 22 September, 2019 at 5:45 pm:
” …
Ireland didnt get independence via GENERATIONS of peaceful talk. It ended in violence …
No it bloody well didn’t, Brian. It wasn’t until the IRA gave up on the violence and the Good Friday Agreement was signed that most of the violence ended. Do not forget that, “The Irish Free State”, was not ever free for it was a, “British”, Dominion.
Furthermore the Irish Free State did not end because Westminster made it independent it ended because Southern Ireland declared itself a republic but the violence went on after that and only mainly ended when the IRA gave up on the violence.
@Cubby says: 22 September, 2019 at 6:01 pm:
” … But what if their method involves violence and death.
But what if their method involves not allowing people who do not meet their ethnicity criteria from voting.
Simple is it?”
Very well said, Cubby.
some thoughts about what’s going on at present with the Brexit Curse!
link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
@Robert Peffers –
‘…the IRA gave up on the violence.’
FFS…
‘gave up on’
Seriously?
“Which came first? The Good Friday Agreement or the Canary Wharf bombing?”
Seriously – try and date each of those ‘events’ without googling.
Not easy, eh?
Okay, it may seem a ludicrous question, but if it came up in a pub quiz, most folk under, say, 40 yrs of age, would probably defer to older team members.
If you want to kick the hornets’ nest Mr Peffers, carry on, but I can’t be the only one who would much prefer it if you would just…how can I put this…stick to the constitutional stuff at which you have consistently proven yourself to be peerless.
😉
If you’re going to have a serious negotiation with the UK you have to have something you can hurt them with whether it’s financial or otherwise, or you’ll get no respect, just as Scotland gets no respect
The UK respects the control of power or money, it always has
and they will deal with anybody any country any organisation anywhere who has the will to use their power or money against them
The UK doesn’t respect the law, and it never has unless it can damage them
Years ago most of us would’ve found ourselves in bits nailed to lumps of wood around our towns as examples to others
Our leaders in Scotland must find a modern way to damage the Westminster cabal and demean and expose them to the world so that International condemnation and the threat of sanctions against them forces them to back down or we won’t win this
Westminster will never say OK you’ve put up a good argument so off you go Scotland and enjoy your life, we’ll have to force them, and we’ll have to do it big and loud so the world is shocked by their behaviour
If that disnae work then we can invade the Bastirts, get the pitchfork factory going, at least we’ve got modern Chinese torches now
@Davie Oga says: 22 September, 2019 at 6:57 pm:
” … Why?
“Plan A“ is leaving the EU.”
If you do not know by now, David, that in politics situations change, and sometimes very quickly, then you really need to wake up from your dreams.
Thing is that when your opponents change things then you have to adjust your own reactions to the changes. In any event what is currently in the Supreme court engenders a situation in which Westminster cannot win.
Factually both kingdoms of the United Kingdom, (and there are only two), each have their own rule of law that is independent of the other kingdom of the union.
Which now brings us to a situation Westminster has studiously avoided – until now.
The Supreme Court is neither a Scottish nor an English court and there is no such rule of law as a United Kingdom Rule of Law. So the Supreme Court must legally consider Scottish matters under Scots Law and English, (that’s kingdom of England), law under English law.
So it is likely that the current matter could well be illegal under Scots law but legal under English law. What then? The Supreme Court is on a hiding to nothing unless I miss my guess and no matter what their conclusions one or both kingdoms is going to be angry and the likely outcome will be an automatic appeal to the International Courts of Justice. Who will find themselves in exactly the same position.
I may be wrong but it is my understanding that the Supreme Court does not have the legal authority to overturn the ruling of the Inner Court of Session as that court is the Scottish highest court of Appeal.
There seems no way out that will not cause an outcry of illegality no matter what the Supreme Court rules and that will expose that the Supreme court itself may well be illegal.
No matter for that little matter of the Claim of Right is back on the Agenda as is the fact that the United Kingdom is a bipartite union of kingdoms with each of the two kingdoms equally sovereign and Westminster itself has recent claims by UK parliament Cabinet Ministers claiming that in international treaties the signatories can end the treaty at will and requiring no permissions from the other party to do so.
Worse still, for Westminster, is the fact that Westminster is the United Kingdom Parliament and thus cannot take a position in cases between both kingdoms it supposedly represents and the whole can of worms that is the United Kingdom’s unwritten constitution is up for exposure before the World.
I’m a member of one of Germany’s oldest car clubs and was one the committee organisers for events, at one of our do’s last year I was talking about Scotland/Brexit with some of the other members who are lawyers and judges.
They know quite a bit about the current situation from their own experiences/media and partly from my “never ending lectures” about why we want independence etc. 😉
The gist from them is that Germany and EU are in negotiations with the UK and nobody else.
The Treaty of Union between the KofSCO and KofEng created the UK of GB, we elect a central Parliament every 5 years which forms a government from its MPs. Any negotiations with foreign countries or organisations are conducted by representatives of the UK of GB.
They are not dealing with Wales, Scotland or England but the UK.
How the UK divides itself up is an internal matter for your discussion.
Two Kingdoms, five countries or a thousand towns with a duckpond in the middle, it’s your problem.
Everyone would love it if Scotland was indy and a member of the EU.
Whether you hold an Indyref-2 or use other legal means is up to you.
As for me, if on the 1 Nov. 19 Scotland is taken out the EU against its documented 62% will then that is a blatant breach of the TofU. and requires an immediate termination of the Treaty.
A political party with a widely held belief to have deeply anti Semitic tendencies has called to liquidate a section of society and redistribute the wealth to individuals they consider to be more worthy.
I’m not a natural defender of private schools but Corbyn’s Labour are the biggest bunch of self unaware tw*ts.
Johnson really does have it easy when the alternatives are the unelectable Corbyn and the unthinkable Farage.
@ Confused 8:02 pm
I think you got most of them,Kinnock and the “well alright pish in the 80s after backstabbing Michael Foot a thoroughly decent man in my opinion,
The former Viscount Stansgate, was again IMO one of the biggest charlatans, in the film about the TSR2 demise he appears to gloat at the closing of factories he was involved with as head of trade and industry.
My father a former communist spoke highly of Wilson and George Brown
Regading the Scots a heap of them start with Dewar and McConnell and carry on
So Labour. Lib Dems and the actual blue Tories all agree on the impossibility of respecting a mandate in Scotland – what’s new?
It will only drive more support for Scottish Independence. It is remarkable how Nicola/SNP have kept their nerve and focus in the face of all this and the incessant BBC/media onslaught on every aspect of government in Scotland.
Armchair generals on this page would do well to suggest how Nichols/SNP could play their hand better
The consensus here in NI is that Brexit will accelerate Irish Unity and the opinion polls strongly bear this out with even pre-Brexit majorities like this from Ashcroft link to lordashcroftpolls.com
An Irish Unity referendum will be transmogrified into ‘do we want to join the EU or remain under Westminster’. A lot of young Unionists want to stay in Europe
It would seem obvious that the same applies in Scotland, ironically “the only way to stay in Europe is to vote for independence”
Which makes the debate over the Irish backstop doubly interesting as it would also apply to an Independent Scotland
A lot of people have been wondering why the DUP would sacrifice its farming and business base and try and block a special economic deal for NI with the best of the EU/UK benefits for NI
The answer is that Scotland would want a similar deal. It would lead to independence for Scotland, which would be curtains for the DUP and NI’s Union with England. Better to wreak the NI economy.
Meanwhile the SNP are playing a blinder – acting like the only responsible democratic party in town – which in truth they probably are when you examine what Brewer above, or Swinson last week or Ruthy last year has to say about democratic mandates in Scotland
Anyone know what Nicola’s plan B is then as that is her plan A scuppered
To Robert Peffers:
Thank you thank you Robert for your continuing fight for Scotland and the future of the Scots and especially the younger generation coming up.
To see the blatant acts being committed in westminster at present brings tears of frustration. The unfitness of the westminster government, their PM, the food banks, austerity, the damage in the past long before we were born and future damage to the Scots – to my present family and past ancestors. The Brexit that has turned into almost a civil war throughout the UK. The situation is so unbelievable more than ever sanity can only be achieved by Independence for Scotland.
I thank you for the trouble you take and for the pride you have in your people and your country. I love Scotland and would still be there if things had been different in the past. I have faith that Independence is almost here in time for future generations.
God Bless.
O/T
BBC had an hour of highlights of the PGA golf from Wentworth on Saturday and Sunday evening. Scotland’s Richie Ramsay was constantly on the tournament leaderboard for those final two rounds. Yet the BBC only showed him holing out at the 18th on Sunday.
Richie finished tied for sixth place but was edited out of the highlights on both nights. While all the other tournament leaders were featured heavily.
The special task of the BBC is to diminish Scotland and Scots at every turn.
Bob Costello at 11.33
Anybody know how Bob Costello knows that Nicola’a Plan A is scuppered or does he just swallow any old rubbish from the incoherent and terrified unionists and thinks the rest of us are just as silly?
Ach, not long before the legislation is set in motion to nip up the anomaly of constitutionally reserved matters. Currently, it’s not actually illegal for Scotland to hold a ballot on Indy, but if the establishment parties get their ducks in a row (and all the noises are pointing that way) they’ll nip it up a-la the Spanish constitution. We’ve heard every party declare there should be no democratic way for Scotland to gain it’s Independence
Here’s the dilemma; it’s vitally important Scotland does Brexit with rUK, yet also important to be seen opposing it vociferously. The EU has no intention of interfering and any noises off are merely leverage to try and retain the UK. However after the UK as a whole, becomes a “third country”, then they are free to stick their nebs in, as the UK will no longer be a member state.
They certainly are not remotely interested in the situation in Spain, but they happily stick their collective nebs in countries elsewhere, especially to try and stake a claim and get them folded into the greater EU.
Looking at the EU instead of Scotland, it’s vitally important they retain, if not all their pillars, at least trade. Any empire hates to lose real estate and loot. So they will take it to the wire, and play every hand; until there is absolutely no chance of retaining the UK as real estate (member) and little chance of a trade deal staying in place.
Until then, any overtures re: Scotland will only be a card to play as leverage. If it works and they somehow retain the UK in some format, we’ll be dropped like a hot potato – job done.
However, if and only if, there is no chance of a UK deal, then they will seek to grab a consolation prize and a piece of real estate, by courting Scotland – A rough wooing richt enough. Scotland can perhaps hold a little bargaining chip by making overtures to the Nordic alliances and others. It will be a helluva bidding war.
We have a tendency to see things in microcosm, but sometimes it’s not all about us. @Graf Midgehunter is correct to point out, they’re only interested in the entity that is the UK in it’s entirety at the present time.
Scotland can only keep lines of communication open.and proactively resist any sleekit moves to nip up the Scotland Act and introduce new constitutional legislation.
There will be a day of reckoning, but it may not be for a while – there are a few hands to play between the UK & the EU yet.
I think Costello or is it Abott knows exactly what he is doing. Just isn’t succeeding!
“Which would mean there was no democratic route left open to Scotland to achieve independence. So what is it that he suggests we do?”
There’s always the Catalan way, that many condemn as illegal (though in Cat holding a referendum is not in itself illegal). In the UK, at least you won’t be jailed for it – hang on, we’re talking about Johnson. Correction, you may not be jailed.
Hope the Scots don’t learn the hard way that the Catalans had little choice but to “break the law”, in spite of many comments even by indy Scots that the jailed politicians got what they deserved. Timing is all, and that was their worst mistake.
For small stateless nations in a world of Trumps and Erdogans (and the foot-dragging EU, I have to say) life is tough.
Marga @ 00:21,
For small sovereign nations in a world of Trumps and Erdogans, life is even tougher.
(Since they are out on their own and vulnerable to predation from the aforementioned, not to forget the other notorious global dissimulator, Vlad the Expander.)
Which is why joining a club of sovereign nations is a smart move, “all for one and one for all”, provided it is a genuine partnership of equals from which one can extract oneself without permission from anyone but one’s own citizens.
Now which of the available choices might that be, I wonder…?
.
I used to be a member of the Labour Party. I always voted Labour (1979 to 1999).
The mantra is: “I never left Labour, it was Labour that left me”.
If EVER I might ever be tempted to vote Labour again, watching this IDIOT Richard Leonard clown prevaricate and flounder with no self awareness of his failure to understand democracy will forever be tattooed in my mind.
Leonard and Corbyn are such utter failures, they will possibly give Scotland a perfect storm, notwithstanding RevStu’s disturbing article a while back.
I am hoping the perfect storm of Labour failure will enable the SNP to secure a Section 30 order/Edinburgh Agreement for IndyRef2.
The alternative is another ConDem government with Boris as PM for 5 years and Jo Swineson the cripple killing Deputy PM.
Strong words? Swinson has bl00d on her hands…
http://www.calumslist.org
Iain mhor @ 11.57 & 12.21
I suspect that the reason… The only reason… Westminster doesn’t currently have a written Constitution is because it can’t.
Westminster has been left with no choice other than to trumpet the unwritten Constitution as a desirable thing all these years…. Well centuries actually…. Because to attempt to write one,would require it be signed!!
………………..
See Robert Peffers here
………………..
Who would sign it???
For Scotland?
For England?
And …. What about the GAP…. The Gap that lays where the 1707 Treaty of Union ends and the New Constitution takes effect.
Could the Westminster establishment be all that sure that Scotland would sign back up?
We have even had a form of that argument already..
” If Scotland was an Independent Country currently would ye agree to the terms and conditions of the Union? “….
This Union has never been a settled thing,as history clearly demonstrates and if Westminster could have locked us into it by now,it’s fair to say that they would have.
So the Catalonia thing is never going to happen.
There can be nae written Constitution while there are two legal systems.
To end the two legal systems means Striking down the Treaty and that’s exactly what we’ve been trying to do!!!
And that’s the one thing Westminster is forbidden to do,it cannot act to dilute it’s power’s ( This is why the VOW really ended the Union ). Westminster has never been able to even risk having the conversation required to construct a constitution.
Oh it will talk about it… And it will propose new ACTs…
But Always, Always, Always somewhere in there will be the words—- Nothing about this Act affects the Powers of the Crown in Parliament to make and unmake any law—–
Always remember… A new Act of Union has not a thing to say about The TREATY and they may call it a Constitution but it’s AN ACT of the Treaty bound UK Parliament.
As for the EU or any other thing we join….
We’re no exactly beggars at the gate here
All we have to do is, have a care for us not to sign Scotland up to anything that doesn’t have an agreed process to leave!!!
Apologies
My 3.02 post should read…
Iain mhor @ 11.57 & MARGA @ 12.21… 🙂
“I think Costello or is it Abott knows exactly what he is doing. Just isn’t succeeding!”
Jeez, any criticism and it must be a tractor pretendy fake Indy supporter troll 77th SiU MI5 agent.
In this case the guy who provided the DUNDEE YES BUS – never heard of it?
link to nytimes.com
“The boss of a transport company, Bob Costello, said he had stepped back from his business for the last two months, providing one of his 17 buses to the pro-independence campaign and spending much of his time handing out leaflets from a stall in Dundee’s main square.“
I will repeat as I have repeated before. Provide evidence of any PM,leader of the opposition or any person in any position of power stating that Scotland will not be given a Section 30.
It is implied, suggested, threatened,opposed but never categorically stated.
To therefore rabbit on about us not getting one and talking of Plan BCD and whatever is a surrender to scaremongering.
And any suggestion that the SNP should do anything other than campaign for “Plan A” is deeply stupid.
If the UK stands in front of the free world and the UN Charter to which it is an original signatory and denies Scotland its democratic right I will eat my hat (I’ll have to buy one first).
Dave McEwan Hill @ 5.00 am
I’m volunteering Cactus’es hat…. Which should read Cact.. Eye hat… But cause it’s no going tae happen we needn’t worry our nocturnal friend over it 🙂
( It was lovely to meet ye by the way )
Anyhoo
I agree that Westminster are bull shitting over a section 30 and would also add that the Media are trying to seed this idea too!!!
Nevertheless, for all sorts of reasons… We should be getting the inevitable Court stuff out of the way… Now!!
Even if it’s only to gain traction from perception.
What, at this point in time have we to loose???
Dave McEwan Hill @ 5.00am
I’ve posted a reply that’s defaulted to moderation..
So I expect it won’t show up till morning.
Anyhoo
It was nice to meet ye 🙂
Dave McEwan Hill says:
23 September, 2019 at 5:00 am
If the UK stands in front of the free world and the UN Charter to which it is an original signatory and denies Scotland its democratic right I will eat my hat (I’ll have to buy one first).
Jesus H. …Bashes head into wall…
It already fkg is!!! Scotland’s sovereign people democratically and emphatically rejected Brexit in 2016. The UK ignores it, the EU ignores it, and Scotland’s own SNP fkg Government ignores it too!!
The people are sovereign. Have you absolutely no grasp of what that means???
Westminster’s perfidy is only one side of the coin. The other necessary component in the “fix” is Scotland’s cowardly and supine acquiescence. The rest of the World can do nothing for Scotland until Scotland stands up for itself and it’s Constitution, yet we have a Scottish Government with ‘compromise’ on speed dial, seeking to supplant our popular Scottish Sovereign birthright with their own arbitrary pseudo-Constitution which somehow gives Holyrood the power to overrule a sovereign edict from the people.
If the SNP Government was standing up for Scotland’s Constitutional Rights and democratic principle, Scotland would have a Constitutional Backstop more resolute and insoluble than the Irish Backstop, and probably by now, a UN resolution confirming that Scotland’s forced expulsion from Europe was contrary to the democratic will of the people, and as such, represented the unlawful subjugation of a Nation’s Constitutional Sovereignty, and was thus an act of unlawful colonial aggression contrary to international law, which the EU would be bound to recognise, and thus Scotland will not be Brexited… unless for some bizarre God-forsaken reason Scotland’s Government sits on its hands and does not dispute it’s subjugation but deliberately acquiesces to it.
Don’t fret about eating your hat Mr McEwan Hill. After Brexit, it will probably be considered a delicacy. Focus instead on giving our Scottish Government a proverbial boot up the arse to shake it out of it’s miserable and infuriating complacency and wilful blindness to the fact they already have a sovereign mandate which they cannot alter. Scotland rejected Brexit!
For a sovereign nation, that would be the end of the matter. Though how we expect the wider world to recognise our constitutional sovereignty when our own elected Government doesn’t, is a question I sadly cannot answer. Should we impeach our current government and seek to replace it with a new one which properly respects the sovereignty of the people?
Perhaps that won’t be necessary since they are in the process of impeaching themselves with GRA strategy which is going down such a storm with half the electorate.
What a mess! And we were in such good shape in 2015…
It’s time to turn on the Bat signal over Gotham. Come back Alex Salmond. The “Boss”.
It amazes me why anybody would want to vote for the Labour party considering they don’t know what they’re going to do or say about anything until Len McCluskey and a whole bunch of student union kids decides to tell them, and nobody elected any of those people
All these Brexiters who bang on about unelected bureaucrats in Brussels running things and yet the Tories and Labour are stuffed to the gunnels with political advisers, strategists, researchers, political planners, media advisers, speech writers, the list is endless and yet they keep telling the punters to elect them as their leaders but when they do it’s all of these unknown faceless people who make all the decisions
Vote Unionist and get hundreds of people you didn’t vote for clogging up offices eating your tax money while thinking up new ways of depriving you of more of your money to pay for more of them
And don’t even think about the House of Lords that can cost up to a £1 million a day, it’s OK though because the Labour party is going to abolish that, they said so around about 1916 so any day now
Dr Jim,
Good post.
IMO, we are at the point where Corbyn’s Labour in weak opposition have already caused as much damage to the UK as the Lefty Labour government did in the ’70s.
@ Dr Jim
Wonderful insight, idiots guide to ukok democracy. If I may add a few unelected players to the list, lobbyists, big buck party donors, the monarch and her private advisors( no bill gets to th final stage unless it’s been scrutinised and amended to ensure it does not impinge on the crown, so austerity ok’d by the queen. The deep state, they are the political chain pullers.
This just makes me think that Wings should start the list party that has been muted and give Labour in Scotland a swift boot in the balls come the Scottish elections.
Ot
So sorry listening to guy at airport waiting to go to Orlando. Not today with Thomas Cook crash. Person from ABTA planning for past 24 hours +.When Raab was on TV defending the govt looks like they already knew of collapse. If only the company was bankers.
Terrible news about Thomas Cook.
9,000 UK jobs gone and of course the knock on effect to follow.
Thomson’s holiday bookings went down by £1 Billion mainly due
To the uncertainty of Brexit. No doubt this too is Brexit related.
I’d estimate the UK costs for repatriation if holiday makers in excess
Of £80,000,000. The government will also need to pay due wages and
Redundancy payments and then benefits which again will be in many millions.
Could the requested Gov loan of £150 million have saved the company from liquidation
Saving most jobs and people’s hard earned holidays?
Boris makes it clear that the Tories don’t save any companies or jobs in peril.
Pity they were not corrupt casino bankers as they could have had up to £80 Billion made available.
Another nail in the coffin for the UK High St with another tranche of boarded up shops.
Robert Peffers
I agree the people are sovereign.
We operate that sovereignty under a representative system of parliamentary democracy, not direct rule of the people. That’s the way sovereignty has been exercised for hundreds of years.
Recognising that FACT: the election of a majority of SNP MPs was all the mandate needed to exercise sovereignty. Scotland would later hold its own confirmatory indyref AFTER the independence preparations had been completed. UK state not involved.
It’s complete mince to peddle the myth that the SNP’s hands are tied until the SNP have 50%+1 of all votes cast via an indyref before they can exercise Scotland’s sovereignty.
Mr Peffers with your personal knowledge and knowledge of history, you should tell the facts, not just peddle the SNP’s “devolution-first” policy.
Is there any evidence Westminster would honour any S30 that they signed?
Or would it be a worthless piece of paper.
And, just out of interest, will 4 mandates be enough, or should we maybe move our own goalposts a bit further and make it 6, or 10 even, save the unionist parties moving them for us.
I mean to say, you can never have enough mandates can you. Specially when the entire structure of the Uk is about to be burnt to the ground to save a few billionaires paying taxes.
And last but not least of my pointless questions – which will not get answered – after 31/10/19 and a No Deal or Shit Deal Brexit, when we are pulled out of the EU – who is there to stop Holyrood being shut down, and when that happens, HOW, exactly HOW, are the SNP going to ever get anywhere near power again to even think about offering Scots an option at the ballot box.
These are legitimate points, legitimate questions. People might not want to hear them, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
Breeks 6.12am. Exactly, Westminster took a lot of notice of the UN over the chagos islanders.
The IRA weren’t always a terrorist organisation it’s great to see so many people aware of just that and rather ironic for Stu to be stating this fact since he blocked me on Twitter for pointing that very thing out a couple of months ago.
Fed up reading ‘why do the SNP not take the MSM to task’. This is simple, the MSM know the SNP have no power over them as the regulation is controlled in another country. The MSM are playing for those that do control them, they will not be interested in the SNP opinion until they have the power to control this regulation.
British nationalist Jo Swinson believes all nationalism is bad, except of course her pure form of nationalism. Jo Swinson also believes democracy is bad as she decides to overturn one referendum she doesn’t like the result of with a minority of votes, but demand the referendum she does like the result must stand in perpetuity no matter what the electorate think.
I hope everyone is thoroughly cleansed of any doubts about the SNP and their resolve to do lead us out of the UK ASAP. Last night the SNP propaganda B team were at their work BTL all through the night and we even had someone ‘thanking God for the work they do’ here! What will they be like when there is a bona fide Independence party for competition?
They have so obviously taken on board many women’s deep concerns over GRA reform thanks to the sterling efforts of S-A Somerville at Dundee Pride who has allayed all the fears women had about the consultation period extension being a scam.
Well actually they missed that out but there was lots of diversionary tactics and doubling down on the constitution and sovereignty and the Claim of Right and …zzzzzZZZ…
So, to the patronising dinosaurs of the SNP who inhabit the wee small hours, you are convincing no-one. An onslaught of everything that has put people off posting on this site does not help – it serves to show how out of touch you are and how by repetition of irrelevant mantras you do the SNP no good whatsoever.
If people stop challenging you here it is not because you have ‘won’. They are ignoring you as I will from now one.
The debate has moved elsewhere, to the organisation of a real opponent to your out of touch entitlement and ownership of Independence. By not acknowledging the problem in your party you have contributed to its eventual demise. Well done.
I wish Scotland to be an independent country once again.
No other issue will distract me from that aim.
Once independence is restored I will join healthy debate on any subject you like and it can only be better than now!
@Iain mhor says:22 September, 2019 at 11:57 pm:
… We’ve heard every party declare there should be no democratic way for Scotland to gain it’s Independence.
Well, Iain, no we have not. What we have seen is their intentionsto close the door. Thing is there very well may be a foot in that door. You may have noticed that the Westminster SNP representatives are calling them out in the Scottish courts on matters that affect Scottish law and also on constitutional matters with some success.
” … The EU has no intention of interfering and any noises off are merely leverage to try and retain the UK. However after the UK as a whole, becomes a “third country”, then they are free to stick their nebs in, as the UK will no longer be a member state.”
This too is only true on the surface for the EU works by consensus as well as democracy. It simply isn’t true the EU has done nothing in regard to the Spain/Catalonia situation. Much of the EU inter-member work is done out with the EU debating chamber.
” … They certainly are not remotely interested in the situation in Spain …
Several member states, including Germany and Scotland,(UK), had court proceedings against Catalonian politicians who fled from Spain and Spanish courts and ruled against extradition of the politicians as requested by the Spanish government. Also the Spanish Government has changed and they have allowed those Catalonian politicians to stand in Spanish elections. Things in the EU often get done quietly in the background.
… Until then, any overtures re: Scotland will only be a card to play as leverage. If it works and they somehow retain the UK in some format, we’ll be dropped like a hot potato – job done.”
You haven’t been paying attention to the EU parliament in the EU debating chamber, Iain. They have been slamming the UK representatives really hard but there is a great difference to the Scottish MEPs such as Alyn Smyth. Beside the very obvious pro-Scottish feelings of the EU member states. Some EU MEPs have openly stated that Scotland will be a very welcome member to the EU community.
In truth there is absolutely no comparison between the Spain/Catalonian and the Scotland/England situation and the best authority on that score is the Spanish government who have always denied they would veto any Scottish request to remain an EU member state.
Check out who the MSM and unionist people claiming Spain would be against any Scottish claims to EU membership and you will find it is usually José Manuel Barroso. Who is actually Portuguese, not Spanish, and has no right to speak for Spain. Not only that but he was the EC president – not the EU and thus always was careful to state that these were his own personal views but the MSM and UK broadcasters never mention that fact.
” … There will be a day of reckoning, but it may not be for a while – there are a few hands to play between the UK & the EU yet.”
Again you have not been paying attention – I’d say the EU has given up all pretence of anything other than a UK exit from the EU and they, unlike the UK, have been making preparations for that event. Boris says it is a certainty and the EU is totally fed up with the whole matter. After all the EU has many other concerns throughout the EU and this so called, “Brexit”, is getting in the way of many other EU concerns.
I’d say the UK exit is now inevitable and has been for a considerable time. It may be front page stuff in the UK press but the UK has many other concerns to put on their collective front pages and you are never going to get the truth from the UK media.
Dave McEwan Hill on 22nd Sept at 8.26;
Thank you for that quotation from James Maxton of the Independent Labour Party. It bears repeating.
From James Maxton
“Give us our parliament in Scotland. We will start with no traditions. We will start with ideals. We will start with purpose, with courage. We will start with the aim and the object that there will be 134 men and women pledged to 134 Scottish constituencies, to spend their whole brain power, their whole courage and their whole soul in making Scotland into a country in which we can take people from all the nations of the earth and say : this is our land, this is our Scotland ,these are our men, our works, our women and children: can you beat it?”
If only the current members of the Scottish branch of the Labour Party had a fraction of his principles.
Laugh out loud stuff from Leonard at the Labour conference.
More devolution for Scotland he says – Labour the party that reneged on the Infamous vow.
Abolish the The House of Lords – Labour have been promising this for over 100 years.
No wonder British Labour in Scotland were in single figures at the EU ELECTION.
WHAT A JOKE. Labour have nothing to offer Scotland. They conned a lot of people for a long long time but thankfully people in Scotland are wise to them now. No going back to the bad old British Labour days.
Breeks and Daisy Walker..agree entirely. Scottish sovereignty has not been asserted by our government. Particularly at the moment of history that it needed to be: the Brexit majority of 62 %.
Joanne Cherry et al would have been better served taking our Sovereignty to Europe and the UN for recognition and validation. That world recognition would prevent anything that the Johnson criminal gang are planning for us…and they are planning..to punish us for our puny audacity in not entirely lying down to their neo fascist assault on our existence.
Today, I received the FIB DEM glossy with Swinson and Rennie grinning like two apes on a DC Thomson produced GE 2 x page puff piece for the Jo Swinson party ( Ruthie eat yer cold heart out!).
This is DC Thomson, who on the Sunday Post had a front page about the ”rise of Sectarian violence in Scotland’. More black flag shite designed to prepare us for civil or worse outrages designed to frighten the Scots public and allow no more political marches/meetings meantime…the Loyalists will back this temporary move as being one of National Security.
Meanwhile, Somerville and Sturgeon happily lead ‘pride’ marches whilst ignoring our YES movement ones throughout this country and the concerns of women whose human rights are being traduced by the GRA mess.
Truly we are led by a self regarding social engineering coterie, a selfie tweetocracy, who are not Scottish nationalists, and who are prepared to let us be ground under the heel of a brutal neo fascist English New Order.
B reeks at 6.12
“And we were in such good shape in 2015…”
And we are in much better shape now with highest ever figures for Independence and the SNP despite constant and total monstering in all the media and recently huge attack from false friends (you know what I mean?)with our opposition in total retreat.
The most significant factor is that a majority of Scots now believe we are going to be independent. This is absolutely critical and that was the final bridge. We can now talk about the better country we are going to build secure in the knowledge that our people don’t think it’s just “wishful thinking”.
For many that was the final determinator.
How about you keep your attacks on the most successful political party in the developed world down to a couple of paragraphs.
Really don’t understand why the government didn’t fork out the 200 million. Cheaper than unemployment benefits and other benefits for the 10,000 unemployed plus, post Brexit I can see a return to package holidays by some with the new visa and health insurance complexities.
Suspect just knee-jerk Tory ‘ideology’ at work.
@Colin Alexander says: 23 September, 2019 at 8:57 am:
” … I agree the people are sovereign.”
It makes no difference whether you agree or not the fact is that the people’s sovereignty has been , (allegedly), enshrined under Scots law since before the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath.
… We operate that sovereignty under a representative system of parliamentary democracy, not direct rule of the people …
Well we do now but there is a big difference from the 1320s. In 1320 the franchise did not include the common people of Scotland. Those with votes were also the parliamentarians and the Monarch called parliaments. In short the law remains the same but the franchise has changed.
… Recognising that FACT: the election of a majority of SNP MPs was all the mandate needed to exercise sovereignty.”
Well first of all claiming something is a “FACT”, doesn’t make it a fact for that requires either a proof or a logical argument to show it is indeed a fact.
What is a fact is that when we elect a representative to a parliament that representative is not elected by everyone but gets elected by a majority of the electorate and that is Democracy. So collectively the democratically elected government is usually only representative of a majority but, (a big but), under a party system it is usually the case that the total number of votes from all other parties is greater than the total votes for the party in power.
Which is the main reason a straight YES/NO referendum is needed from the entire eligible population for such constitutional matters.
” … It’s complete mince to peddle the myth that the SNP’s hands are tied until the SNP have 50%+1 of all votes cast via an indyref before they can exercise Scotland’s sovereignty.”
Sorry, Colin but my reply, (already made), explains it is not mince. For such constitutional matters a majority of the entire eligible electorate is required. In the current Holyrood Parliament the SNP need the votes of the Green party as the combined unionist vote is otherwise greater than that of the SNP alone.
Not to mention, as Stu’s articles make abundantly clear, there are those who vote SNP who do not want independence and others who want independence but want to leave the EU. Just as there are voters for the unionist parties who want independence from the UK or from the EU.
” … Mr Peffers with your personal knowledge and knowledge of history, you should tell the facts, not just peddle the SNP’s “devolution-first” policy.”
Well, Colin, I believe I have just shown that I’m not just pushing the SNP’s policies but I am explaining the basic nuts and bolts of the whole constitutional issue.
Plainly any party with just a majority of seats in a General Elections, or for Holyrood parliament seats, usually does not always also have an overall majority in the house they are elected to.
The most glaring examples of that fact are the current Westminster government who currently rule without an overall majority in Westminster and the Scottish government who, without the Greens, do not have a majority at Holyrood.
Yet here you are claiming as fact the SNP faction at the Westminster Parliament have enough of a mandate to declare Scotland independent.
There is absolutely no doubt that neither an SNP wipe out of unionist parties for Westminster seats nor an SNP overall majority at Holyrood have a mandate to declare independence. There is no other way for a true mandate for independence can be justified than a referendum/plebiscite on the single issue of independence from the United Kingdom union and that with a simple YES or NO to the simple question of should Scotland be independent and end the United Kingdom.
As mentioned above, very bad news about Thomas Cook. A punter in the hotel talking about guests being thrown out of hotels in Turkey. Imagine the brexiteer uproar if the Turkish hotels put up a poster showing Brits with their suitcases and the wording “Breaking Point” beside them. Karma for some, genuine heartfelt sorrow for the innocent.
A majority government does not necessarily mean a voting majority, i.e. 50% +1 of the voting population. It seems that neither the interviewer nor the interviewee got that salient point over. Under 50%+1 of the voting population voting yes is unfortunately not the will of the Scottish people. A government with 60% of the vote does not necessarily a majority of the voting population.
At the end of the day, 50% +1 of the voting population must show that they want a second referendum for independence. Until we have that evidence though polling, there is no point in asking the question. Aye the numbers are creeping up and many of us want independence yesterday, but until we can convince enough folk to express their will for independence, there is no point in holding another referendum.
For the life of me I cannot understand those who stay loyal to the corruption that is holding us back, namely Great Britain, the Unionist parties and the Westminster system. They have shown time and time again that they have absolutely no respect for the devolved nations, their people, or their governments.
We have not reached the majority of opinion in Scotland. Yet. We must be almost there. Until we have reached a majority we still have a lot of hard work to do. We have to get people to believe in independence.
Those that are prepared to lend their vote to independence, but are not fully convinced and can still change their minds in the polling booth. Once folk believe in independence, are convinced of the right to rule themselves, they will never want Westminster control again.
Why has the taxpayers got to pay to bring the holiday people home,surely T., Cook and every other airline should have insurance to cover this and if not why not??? We have to insure our homes cars etc., so along with cheap aviation fuel these airlines are making cheap flights at our expense and making huge profits and why do private schools get charitable status and do not pay vat everybody else pays vat even people who go to food banks now that is charity not private schools these things and many more like them need to be looked into
A government with 60% of the vote does not necessarily HAVE a majority of the voting population
george Brown
12:08 PM (1 minute ago)
to national
I use betfair and bet that BJ would not be PM by the end of September. the odds wre 7/2 and over the course of the weekend they went to 1.2. this is seismic and there was carnage in the market.
image.png
Labour yearn to have their electoral fiefdom of Scotland back and they’ll cold bloodedly go along with us being ruined by an ultra-right Tory government if they think that is the only route by which Scotland can be kept(forcibly) in the union.
Labour are also past masters at avoiding the guilt feelings by clinging to their ‘all nationalism is bad’ totem. QED Ben Elton’s idiotic remarks the other day.
Bold or Gallus policies? from Mcdonnel at the conference including some that we Scots already have as he admits.
New powers for Scotland too…no actual statement of what they are jam tomorrow wont help Labour North of the wall.
Nothing to see here move along.
PS:
On tenterhooks for news of the Sup Ct decision. 🙁
I have just heard John McDonell say to conference ‘of course Labour in Scotland introduced free personal care’
I thought that the SNP introduced that – anyone confirm?
McBoxheid @ 11:40…
Under 50%+1 of the voting population voting yes is unfortunately not the will of the Scottish people.
You’re falling into the trap of assuming that no vote is a vote for No. There are multiple reasons why someone who appears on an electoral register may not mark their X in the box…
They may be on holiday and forget to arrange a postal vote.
They may be unable to get to a polling station through ill health and fail to arrange a proxy.
They may simply forget to submit a postal vote.
They may be ambivalent as to the result and not vote.
They may have an issue with the circumstances surrounding a poll, the wording of a question for example, and elect not to participate.
They may even be dead – having passed away since the last time the register was updated.
They may feel they don’t have a horse in the race therefore decide not to participate.
They may simply be a victim of circumstance and despite having planned to vote, be unable to get to a polling station.
The list goes on.
The turnout in 2014 was 80%. You cannot assume the remaining 20% were all No voters who simply couldn’t be arsed.
What matters is the % of those who actually vote, not the % of those who are entitled to vote. Otherwise it’d be 1979/40% all over again.
Why has the taxpayers got to pay to bring the holiday people home,surely T., Cook and every other airline should have insurance to cover this and if not why not???
______________________________________________
I think the Home Office (or whomever the relevant deparment is) will lend them the money for a flight home, but they have to repay that in full. They can then attempt to get their costs paid through the bankruptcy court from Th. Cook.
People may wish to ensure themselves against an airline going bust or whatever reason they have for needing to pay extra to get home. Not everyone has the luxury of a Gold Card, which covers such costs, so it is up to them as individuals to way up the risk of not taking flight insurance.
Unless the law is changed, that is the way it is. Why is the law the way it is? Because it was voted through parliament, or at least a committee from that parliament to be so. If you don’t like it, campaign against it.
People may wish to INSURE themselves against an airline going bust
robertknight says:
23 September, 2019 at 12:37 pm
McBoxheid @ 11:40…
You’re falling into the trap of assuming that no vote is a vote for No. There are multiple reasons why someone who appears on an electoral register may not mark their X in the box…
___________________________________
What are the actual rules that govern this?
I need to read them, obviously, as I am not 100% sure.
If it was 50% +1 of the people that actually voted, then the SNP and Green between them have already reached this. On 3 occasions. There would be no need to ask Westminster if it was so. Our mandate would be legal and binding. Would the SG not have challenged this in court if it was not legal to oppose a new referendum?
@DMH
Straight question Yes or No polling in the years immediately following devolution ran as High as 60% Yes and averaged 54%.
Unfortunately, those were successfully hidden until 2006.
In 2007 we had the banking crisis which Brown and Darling succeeded in portraying as a ‘Scottish’ bank crisis despite the fact that ‘English’ bank Barclays clandestinely received a bigger bail out than RBS and HBOS put together even though Barclays was smaller than RBS at the time.
Because of Brown and Darlings prod efforts support for independence did fall at that time and has only basically recovered yo pre banking crisis levels.
Dorothy @12.35
link to www2.gov.scot
I take we have to pay for the 9000 people now unemployed courtesy of the tories.
Not better to seek a solution?
Trades Unions– so very quiet. Obviously not Fergusons Yard.
Labour Party conference— Leonard as First Minister says MacDonald.
Wake me up!
I see a Welsh NHS Trust has spent £700,000
On a special heli-pad that doesn’t meet health and safety requirements.
Looks like SNP will be getting the blame for designing or installing it.
I repeat again, there is a massive constitutional difference between an assertion or expression of sovereignty which arguably does require an electoral majority, (if only to establish it is the will of the people), and alternatively, mounting a defence of sovereignty to assert it’s legitimacy and constitutional ascendancy over the wayward misadventure of a would-be colonial superior or usurper of sovereignty.
The latter defence of our sovereign rights requires no electoral majority, none whatsoever, only a demand that the existing rule of law be respected.
We need not end the Union by our active volition after a tortuous referendum turned inside by propaganda and indoctrination. Our already existing sovereign Remain vote in the Brexit Referendum and the UK’s absolute determination to leave Europe leaves the Union of the United Kingdom Constitutionally untenable.
For the democratic purists who are uncomfortable about ‘indirect’ Independence born from the collapse of the Union rather that it’s formally structured and orderly dissolution, Scotland will have the option of a constitutional discussion and ratification plebiscite after the Union has ceased to exist.
To be brutally frank about it, provided we can rule out supine, passive acquiescence to having our Sovereignty subjugated, what other choice do we have? We MUST defeat Westminster’s claim to be sovereign over Scotland, and such action is NOT conditional upon any electoral mandate.
Just contributed to this …
link to gogetfunding.com
We all want something to happen in the short term. Getting some billboards decorated with pro Indy messages seems a good idea.
There’s too many people waiting on the SNP/SG to make moves. Lots can be done without waiting. Momentum can be built up ahead of the official starting pistol firing.
Grey Gull, thank you!
Chicmac at 12.51
I am referring to actual elections, not transient polling
Robert Peffers
So, if we accept YOUR argument that the SNP cannot assert Scottish sovereignty until they have 50% +1 of the support of the sovereign Scottish population,
by YOUR logic, what right does Scotland have to demand the right to hold indyref2? The answer: Zero right.
The total pro indy vote in 2016 was: around 47% of votes cast. Not 50% +1 of ALL the Scottish population; not even 50%+1 of all votes cast.
But, your logic is flawed. Following the long-established principles of democratic mandate and parliamentary democracy, the Scottish population and Scottish Parliament voted FOR indyref2.
You and the current SNP leadership are playing by the Unionists made up rules. As we have seen in indyref1, the Unionists didn’t follow the rules, only the losing side obeyed the Unionist’s rules.
McBoxheid
I’m not sure such rules exist.
All that exists is the perceived legitimacy of any result.
If over 50% of those polled vote a particular way, then (you’d think – Brexit etc.) the result is conclusive. (Although in the case of Brexit, the result isn’t disputed, but what people were asked to vote for is).
Despite only 37.4% (17.4m) of the UK electorate of 46.5m voting to leave the EU, not once have I heard a pundit or politician claim that the 52/48 result carries no weight because a particular threshold of the total electorate wasn’t met.
If it is accepted that 37.4% of the UK electorate can take the UK out of the EU, then there is no legitimate argument against 37.4% of the Scottish electorate taking Scotland out of the UK.
They are equally as elitist and dictatorial as the Conservatives. Democracy is a word the play with and for them has no meaning. While I don’t agree with violence it was the British state which started violence against the Irish in Derry on Bloody Sunday.
For Scotland I am now strongly of the opinion our government will just have to declare Independence for the iretrieval brake down of UK government as well our peoples choice to go.
O/t
SC ruling expected 10.30am tomorrow (Tuesday)
Got your popcorn in?
Ian Brotherhood says:
22 September, 2019 at 10:34 pm
@Robert Peffers –
‘…the IRA gave up on the violence.’
FFS…
‘gave up on’
Seriously?
“Which came first? The Good Friday Agreement or the Canary Wharf bombing?”
________________
The IRA gave up on violence in 1969.
The Provisional IRA or PIRA (or Provos)is the breakaway organisation that formed in 1969 after the IRA ceased their hostilities.
The song “Four Green Fields” refers to Ulster, Munster, Leinster and Connacht. Ulster being the field that is still in bondage in the song and the one that the PIRA was actively fighting to free after the IRA stopped their fight for Irish independence in 1969.
I am not sure if anyone knows the true genealogy, but the generally accepted version is the IRA stopped it’s fight in 1969. The PIRA came into existence in 1969, when it’s members disagreed with the cessation of hostilities by what ha become to be known as the Old IRA.
Why all this talk about the IRA exclusively? The other side actually killed more people but that is conveniently forgotten in all accounts.
@frogesque
Thanks for that news on the ruling(s).
Longer might be better I hope. 🙂
robertknight says:
23 September, 2019 at 1:53 pm
McBoxheid
I’m not sure such rules exist.
All that exists is the perceived legitimacy of any result.
If over 50% of those polled vote a particular way, then (you’d think – Brexit etc.) the result is conclusive. (Although in the case of Brexit, the result isn’t disputed, but what people were asked to vote for is).
Despite only 37.4% (17.4m) of the UK electorate of 46.5m voting to leave the EU, not once have I heard a pundit or politician claim that the 52/48 result carries no weight because a particular threshold of the total electorate wasn’t met.
If it is accepted that 37.4% of the UK electorate can take the UK out of the EU, then there is no legitimate argument against 37.4% of the Scottish electorate taking Scotland out of the UK.
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OK, but it remains to be seen if brexit happens, and it must happen before it can be challenged legally. Only then can it be used to make the Treaty of Union null and void because of the way Scotland voted. I think any sane person will leave that to the lawyers, barristers etc to make that argument, but it would stop people backing them either vocally or finacially.
I don’t know, but a fair bet is that the SNP have such legal arguments under consideration and that is why they are seen as many as swithering and not getting on with it. That and an outright majority in polling.
but it WOULDN’T stop people backing them either vocally or finacially.
McBoxheid
Your point re. legitimacy being dependent upon the % of the electorate being in favour of a particular outcome does not extend to the legal challenges over Brexit.
The result of the 2016 referendum in respect of 52/48 and the fact that the winners accounted for only 37.4% of the electorate is not in dispute – from any quarter!
Ian McCubbin 1.58pm.yes it was the British who started the violence re bloody Sunday, and I remember 4 days later in 1972 stood outside their embassy in Dublin with over 20,000 others watching it burn to the ground.
Dorothy @ 12.35
It was Henry McLeish who introduced the free personal health care act. That was why deep broon had him sacked. That and his annoying tendency to forget the Scottish Executive was not called the Scottish Government.
the snp will stand on a pro indy ticket from now on in every election, ge or he
a majority of MPs or MSP’s would be enough to give a mandate for indyref2 (hint, this is already the case)
however, an election where the snp and/or pro indy parties gained 50%+1 of the vote would give an automatic mandate to call independence
what would the point of having indyref2 if50%+1 of the people have just voted for it?
I think even if the unionist complained and said we did need a referendum, i think i would probably agree.
The SNP (Gov) are carrying out their mandate to the letter. A huge support for staying in the EU and stopping Brexit That is the immediate largest mandate they have been given from the the electorate. The best time to have an IndyRef is when it can be won. They have a less well supported mandate for an IndyRef/Independence.
Obviously one campaign at a time. Or both could be lost. Prioritise is good management. The most urgent is deal with first. In any management strategy.
That is the mandate the SNP (Gov) has been given from the people. They are carrying it out to the letter, as usual.
Ireland was illegally Partition. To appease a minority of unionists. People turned to violent because they were refused the right to vote. In Belfast in the 1960. Peoplecwere totally. Illegally discriminated against. The unionists turned to violence in the 11WW. Captain Crawford illegally smuggled weapons in via Port Glasgow. Nearly got caught. The republicans who were discriminated agains did the same. The Westminster Gov unionists were entirely responsible for the violence.
There was a mass Home Rule movement in Ireland through out the 19/20C. On going. For reunification.
A Irish Home Rule Bill was going to be passed two weeks after the start of 1WW. It was delayed.
A Land league was also politically active. To obtain land rights held by (plantation) estates. The Irish were treated appalling by the Westminster Gov. Totally cruel. It left many millions starving or migrating. Depopulated. To the US which has a large Irish contingent. Also in Congress, an Irish Lobby for trade and support etc. A large no of voters of Irish (Scottish) decent,
An S30 can be obtained through the Courts when the time is right.
An S30 or Johnston (Tories) go to jail. If Johnston lasts that long. Will he last until Octobet?
More Tory corruption. Johnston public handouts to friends with benefits.
robertknight says:
23 September, 2019 at 2:41 pm
McBoxheid
Your point re. legitimacy being dependent upon the % of the electorate being in favour of a particular outcome does not extend to the legal challenges over Brexit.
The result of the 2016 referendum in respect of 52/48 and the fact that the winners accounted for only 37.4% of the electorate is not in dispute – from any quarter!
________________________________
Agreed, but the fact that Scotland is being taken out of the EU against our will, will be ground for a legal challenge on a breach of the Treaty of Union.
If our place in this union of equal kingdoms is allowed to be based on an English majority is it definitely in despute. We are still in a Union of equals as far as I know, so population should have no advantage. England gets a vote and Scotland gets a vote, both based on a what the majority in their individual Kingdoms vote for. Scotland said no thanks, therefore brexit should not be taken any further than the advisory referendum it was.
If you argue that there are four parts to the union, then ifany part of the Union says no, then there is no agreement. If the other parts of the English Kingdom are considered by law to have the same voting rights as either England and Scotland (the latter as signatories to the Treaty of Union), they have to be considered seperate in everything else too. Its 2 parts saying no thanks to 2 wanting brexit, if you prefer a majority vote by nation, so still no majority.
It all depends on whether the courts see the parliament of UK of GB and NI as sovereign, or wether the legally equal Kingdoms of England and Scotland interpret sovereignity in different ways.
They can’t grant the UK parliament sovereignity, if it accepts that Scots Law is different to English Law and the are equal in power a prevelance. The Scottish courts will say one thing and the English courts will say something else because of how that sovereignity works.
The Supreme court can’t rule that the law of one kingdom outrules the other. They can only agree that England can’t overrule Scotland as they are in a Union of equals as we hear so often on here.
Unless of course they decide that because England has no parliament (their choice) the union of parliaments means that the British parliament decides whats what, but that would not be valid as the people of Scotland are sovereign and not it’s parliament and our devolved parliament has been instructed to disagree with the British parliament by its sovereign people.
The British parliament agrees (I think) that constitutional issues cannot be decided by the British parliament for this reason.
Ever felt like this is a very confusing circular argument that has disappeared up its own arse a long time ago? Its time to let those in the legal proffession decide matters.
@LizG
A change to constitutionally related legislation, doesn’t require anything to be signed, it only requires a change in legislation. How difficult is that, not at all. Scotland has been unable to stop Devolution legislation being altered, nor any other ‘constititional’ matters affecting Scotland.
The Scotland Act will require amending in the event of any Brexit for starters – Votes for: ‘everybody’ – votes against: ‘Scotland’ …amemdments pass.
It doesn’t even require Scotland’s input at all, an Order in Council making amemdments can be nodded through by Betty – I wonder if there have been any recent examples of Betty nodding through Orders in council.
The concept I was going for was, currently many things are, apparently outwith the competence of the Scottish government and Holyrood, but trying to do something outwith competence isn’t actually illegal. We’re just told “yer no allowed to do that, if you do, we’ll just ignore you” That can easily be amemded, to “it’s illegal to do that and if you do we’ll charge you”. Especially as an amendment to the relevent sections and Schedule fall under reserved matters.
I’m just pointing out worst case scenarios and that they are easily achievable.
@Robert Peffers.10:22am
I understand your points about the EU and clandestine politics. That’s of course a given, there will always be constant negotiating and manouevering in global politics, far less within EU member states. However, we must take things as they de-facto are, not how they may ultimately resolve.
It’s been a few years of ‘clandestine politics’ and Catalonia and their politicicians still languish.
I do not make a parallel between Catalunya and Scotland, the parallel I was making was between Spain’s constitution and laws as they are – and the UK’s laws and what they aspire to.
It would be naive to think that the Union establishment are not orgasmic at the thought of mirroring Spain’s constitutional legislation..They’re just working out how to get away with it. They already know how to do it.
As for the EU’s position re:Scotland – politics is real. There is no fairy dust and cupcakes – It is brutal, it’s power and money. Everything including their own grannies are for sale. Both the EU &the UK.
So I stand by the premise that the EU may well be making friendly overtures to Scotland, but that is primarily where it benefits the EU not Scotland – Always.
Unless it can be argued any single member (or potential member) is more important than the EU as a body. Scotland is leverage. When Scotland cannot be used as leverage within the UK, Scotland can be wooed… Then it can be used, in the same manner Ireland is being used as a lever into the UK market.
Too brutal a view, too true? I think not. It’s only a question of how Scotland utilises it’s own levers and what deals it can cut for mutual benefit. I live in hope Scotland’s ‘clandestine politics’ are an iron fist in a velvet glove, and not blancmange.
When Westminster tells us, those powers are reserved. We should say, do you know what, we dont recognise your English supreme court. we as a country are going to grow a pair, and are going to go ahead and do it anyroads. Wtf are you gonnae dae about it?
DMH
Both sides were murderers.Dont end up in the trap of whatabootery.
Mcboxheid 4.10 PM. That’s putting a lot of faith in the unionist legal profession in Scotland. Unless I’m mistaken and they are completely neutral.
Bobp at 2.47pm
The Ballymurphy Massacre preceded Bloody Sunday and is presently under investigation. But the UDF, sometimes in collusion with UK security forces, killed many hundreds almost without sanction. But we never hear of it.
Hamish 100. Both sides resorted to killings. But who started it.
Hamish100 at 5.08
Exactly.That is the point I am making. And also that the UK government was complicit in lots of it.
Dave McEwan Hill . I worked in Dublin in a hotel when the bombs went off in Talbot st and co Monaghan, as you rightly say, these were planted by UDF terrorists aided and abetted by British collusion. Yes, there is no whatabootery, we all know who the real murderers were.
I think the point we are all making here is, these pond life in Westminster are not to be trusted. They despise and hate us needing only our resources, and no evil is above them in their quest go hold us fast in their broken union.
@McBoxheid says:23 September, 2019 at 11:40 am:
” … For the life of me I cannot understand those who stay loyal to the corruption that is holding us back, namely Great Britain, the Unionist parties and the Westminster system.”
You have it 99.999% correct, McBoxheid but your use of the term, “Great Btitain”, spoils the comment.
There are several meanings of the term, “great”. One such means largest or biggest and that is the meaning of the great in Great Britain. So that use is not either the entire British Isles nor is it the entire United Kingdom.
It refers only to the largest island of the British Isles which contains only Scotland, Wales and, … … Oh! what’s the other one? Let me think … Oh! Now I remember it is England.
So Great Britain doesn’t even include the bit of the country of Ireland that is still in the United Kingdom … well at least not for the time being. I believe there is almost enough of the people of Ireland who would like Ireland to reunite in the very near future and especially if crazy Boris and his friends creates more trouble with this so called Brexit. By the same token that sees Wales and the Kingdom of Scotland seeking independence a reunified Ireland would need to be out of the so called United Kingdom.
Poor old England will have EU states almost all round it except for a bit of the west coast and it’s a damned long swim to the Americas.
And once Ireland is United, Scotland will have direct ferry links to Europe on its west coast. No need for long diesel guzzling lorry/car journeys down the mi6. As well as plenty links on the east coast via rosyth. What’s not to like about it. Lol.
@callmedave says:23 September, 2019 at 12:35 pm:
” … New powers for Scotland too…no actual statement of what they are jam tomorrow wont help Labour North of the wall. “
A very apt thought, callmedave, especially when we know the full quotation:-
Blockquote>“The rule is, jam to-morrow and jam yesterday—but never jam to-day.”
“It must come sometimes to ‘jam to-day,’” Alice objected.
“No, it can’t,” said the Queen. “It’s jam every other day: to-day isn’t any other day, you know”
? Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There
Looks like Labour have just thrown in the towel for the upcoming general election. They have decided to fight it with no clarity on where they stand on Brexit.
Just think that through for a minute. This early election will be caused by Brexit and it will be about Brexit. Who offers what. SNP and LibDems want it stopped. The Tories and Brexit Party will compete to offer a hard Brexit. And Labour appear now to be saying … “trust us, we’re Labour” … with any position on the central issue being postponed until ‘they win’.
Only one conclusion … they don’t actually want to win.
So, if Boris can stay out of gaol long enough, he gets to be PM for five long years. And that will undoubtedly make him the last PM of the UK,
Watching this video is the first time I’ve ever heard Richard Leonard speak. I didn’t realise he was English until now.
Leonard, who’s he ? The Scottish labour leader never heard of him another establishment plant, Scotland and engerland two separate countries who want to end their union can’t the European courts act as mediator.
@galamcennalath says: 23 September, 2019 at 1:39 pm:
” … There’s too many people waiting on the SNP/SG to make moves. Lots can be done without waiting. Momentum can be built up ahead of the official starting pistol firing.”
The official starting pistol was fired some time ago and
I posted the link to it here on Wings. I have since posted the original link and this one too:-
I may as well not have bothered for the trend here on Wings has shifted to running down the FM/SG and SNP. I posted this one too several times:-
link to yes.scot
Again it seems no one could be bothered being far to busy criticising the FM, SG and SNP. Which is one of the reasons I’m only intermittently commenting these days and looking for more productive websites and YouTube sites to post to.
At lest when I post to a Brexiteer YouTube site and tell them a few home truths they respond which is often more reaction than the truth gets from some Wingers.
Ben Starav, thank you too!
I quite like the ‘credit where credit is due’ so well done to Henry .
The point is in 14 it was no to indy Queen nor any politician vows or Salmond had anything to do with it.
People made their own mind up .
Brexit I voted remain .Since I have been called a remoaner
I have been asked repeatedly who speaks for the people in Scotland who voted leave .
And why an Indy Scotland would want to be in the EU we will be out so do we have another ref to rejoin
People on holiday here from England told me when I said I see nothing good in leaving the EU .They
Told me I have no idea what Calais did and illegals on the streets Also Alec Neil told the Alec Salmond show some time ago The SNP should at the time have said they would not accept a vote different from the UK vote .Alec did not reply and unlike Neil I voted remain .
Iain mhor @ 4.28
I understand that Iain and was essentially saying the same thing..
Spain wrote a Constitution and the Powers that be in Catalonia “signed” up to it… And the Spanish Government operate under its rules..
Westminster can’t do that!!!I
It can,as you rightly pointed out, make an Act of the UK Parliament and call it, “A New Act of Union” or ” An Act of Constitutional Settlement ” or any thing else they like…
The purpose of it will be as you say to bind Scotland……
Or try to!
And the public will be led to believe that it’s a brand new,New Constitution all written down and everything.
But and it’s a big but
It is Not a new Constitution it is still just an Act of the UK Parliament….That will have the phrase in it ” Nothing About This Act Alters the Ability of Parliament to Make or Unmake any law…..
And furthermore the parliamentary oath to Lizzie the Last won’t change and Lizzie the Last won’t be taking an oath to the New Act of Parliament that’s pretending to be an actual Constitution either…..
Most importantly though, the Separation of Law,Education and the Church between Scotland and England won’t change either and that’s because they haven’t swapped out the Treaty of Union for a Constitution…. Again because they can’t….
The Westminster SNP politicians could be going round all the little villages in Scotland drumming up support for independence, hire local halls tell folk we’re looking to have a modern country fit for the 21st century, we don’t want to stay in a union with medieval rules.
Bobp says:
23 September, 2019 at 5:13 pm
Hamish 100. Both sides resorted to killings. But who started it.
Dave McEwan Hill says:
23 September, 2019 at 5:20 pm
Hamish100 at 5.08
Exactly.That is the point I am making. And also that the UK government was complicit in lots of it.
Whatabootery – they all murdered. Not one can stand on a pedestal.
Quite a few times you get Unionists making comments about how bad Ireland is, their debt is the highest in the solar system or eve in our spiral galxy. THIS is the reality, all compare better than the UK:
link to twitter.com
Hamish 100. When someone starts murdering your community/ethnic group. you will retaliate.
Bobp says:
23 September, 2019 at 5:09 pm
Mcboxheid 4.10 PM. That’s putting a lot of faith in the unionist legal profession in Scotland. Unless I’m mistaken and they are completely neutral.
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And here is me thinking that they will obey Scots Law!!
Robert Peffers says:
23 September, 2019 at 5:36 pm
@McBoxheid says:23 September, 2019 at 11:40 am:
” … For the life of me I cannot understand those who stay loyal to the corruption that is holding us back, namely Great Britain, the Unionist parties and the Westminster system.”
You have it 99.999% correct, McBoxheid but your use of the term, “Great Btitain”, spoils the comment.
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I know Robert, but I got fed up with repeating UK of GB and NI. I also thought that Great Britain also reflects the unionist ego and great sense of entitlement, as in great (lower case) British ego and sense of entitlement and the fact that the so called Scottish unionists were prepared to throw their country to the wolves.
Bobp says:
23 September, 2019 at 8:04 pm
Hamish 100. When someone starts murdering your community/ethnic group. you will retaliate.
By murderinG other innocents
Outstanding.
Been watching it on Sky, pause, rewind, and it’s been great exposure for the SNP and Sturgeon, how she managed not to break down in tears of hysterical laughter I have no idea, I’d have been a puddle on the floor.
But Independence aside, a great day for UK democracy, and I think there could be a lot of consequencecs from this, if MPs take note: Representative Democracy is paramount.
I’m looking at you, Section 30 Order. Quick as you like. Ta.
Labour are in opposition but what other party is at least advocating a 4 day week free prescriptions for England
Abolishing private schools etc and the establishment fight back on that has started .You will all be supporting those ideals wont you .
And Richard Leonard and Jeremy Corbyn don’t indulge in name calling so why do you it does not do your cause any good
Hi David.
I don’t think private schools should be abolished. As far as Scotland goes, their status as a “charity” should be removed. After all, each of them is a business.
If parents want to fork out for a “private education” for their kids, fair enough, but they should pay the market rate – not be subsidised by the rest of us. Then their profits can be taxed, to the benefit of the independent Scottish ‘exchequer’.
(I can’t be @R$ed checking up on the English, Welsh and Northern Irish versions.)
Thank you for your comment Brian at 745pm
I think removing their charitable status is the plan .
Joanna Cherry told CH4 News Dominic Cummings should go suspending Parliament was his idea