A shocking accusation
Posted on
April 29, 2013 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
From this morning’s Scotsman:
That devious BASTARD.
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Urgh, what a disgrace.
He’s probably doing it on purpose, as well.
Yep…shocking news!
The First Minister is ‘playing it straight’.
How dare they when we all know it is lies, deceit, scaremongering
and fear we expect. Never mind, I’m sure there others who can
adequately supply us with those eh Mr Darling?
Rather pathetic (in the true sense of the word) article from Lesley Riddoch – she seems mainly to be wailing that the SNP and the YES campaign aren’t giving the MSM enough to write about. At least she makes it clear about the relentless negativity of the No campaign.
I do think Salmond and the YES campaign are playing it the right way though, keeping the powder dry, looking far ahead and setting traps (I have no doubt) and just letting Better Together tire itself out (and tie itself in knots) with its lies and contradictory strategies: we notice you know.
I was quite amused by that. A shame the page it’s linked to doesn’t have that heading too.
Playing it straight is such an alien concept of course it’s newsworthy
Some of the article’s anti-SNP & therefore anti-independence
(don’t they get it?) comments are depressing; highlighting a
blinkered, uninformed (or misinformed) view of the situation.
Cracking post from Craig Murray today.
Completely O/T but all part of the struggle.
Vote for the name for the new Forth Bridge.
http://www.namethebridge.co.uk/
Some enlightenment in the name descriptions.
Know were you are from, know where you are and know where you are going !
This kind of propaganda I like ! No doom and gloom.
The comments on the article are the usual ill-informed drivel. I suspect that a lot of them won’t have a vote anyway.
What drives some people to comment on something that they obviously are not very well informed on and that wont effect them?
I think that the reason that “Salmond” is mentioned so often in BTL comments is that it is the one and only thing that these people know about Scottish politicks is the name of the leader of the SNP.
How did they found that out?
Who grassed?
The one piece in LR article that frustrated me the most was her “request” that AS gets on TV and debates with Cameron, Clegg, Milliband, whomever! WTF, Lesley? Who has been asking for a debate and been turned down?
Sometimes I do not know what LR actually stands for.
I don’t think the main mass of our people are the slightest bit exercised about what currency we adopt as long as they have enough of it.
The “big,strong British economy ” is coming apart at the seams at the moment and realisation of this will gradually have a significant effect
“Playing it straight” is exactly the right thing to do. We mainly need to tell the truth about the UK’s fiscal position to neutralise much of the scaremongering.
What is certain is that posh Tory boys who underestimate the intelligence of Scots and who don’t understand Scotland at all coming up to try to threaten us is a very poor tactic indeed
Good grief! Are there no depths to the depravity of this man?
What next?
Willingness to debate
Accepting funding from Scots in Scotland
Desire to talk about the issues not personalities
Where will all this end?
I’m slightly confused by Lesley’s article. I was under the impression we were all bored of politicians arguing with each other, and that we pined for a time when politicians would be amicable and work together for a common purpose. But then as soon as a party tries to retain a relentlessly positive outlook, they’re criticised for not arguing enough. What is it to be, journalists???
The No campaign are stumbling from one disaster to the next. They’re softening themselves up without our help. Come November, the SNP will just walk up to BetterTogether and deliver a devastating blow in the form of the prospectus for independence, and that’s when we’ll start seeing independence start going ahead in the polls.
At the inaugural meeting of Yes Scotland in the Borders, the lady who organised the meeting said she hoped the polls would be shifting in favour of Yes by February. That’s two months ago. I thought at the time that was too early to be expecting much, but that’s what she said. She grimaced wryly at the thought of this maybe not happening.
I still think late this year or into next before it will really move.
@Robert Kerr-
Thanks for that bridge-naming link. I picked ‘Saltire’.
Name for the Bridge…Kevin?
Geoff Huijer says:29 April, 2013 at 10:28 am
The Unionist trolls on the Scotsman’s comments pages are all Lab/Lib/Con activists. I never read their comments because they are meaningless.
“I want Alex Salmond to look right into the TV lens and tell me from his heart what persuaded him that Scotland can only progress without the rest of the UK.”
I’d like to see this too. But not right now. I have a firm idea in my mind of how I’d like to see the final couple of weeks play out, based on an assumption the NO campaign will continue to be predictable and carry on the same way they are now. And if they do, those closing stages will be the time for that. There is still plenty of time and the NO camp are digging a lot of holes for themselves right now, even if they are gaining from it short term.
If anyone has read “Arguing for Independence” by Stephen Maxwell, he details several things which are “wicked” issues (google that term if you’re not familiar with it but it’s basically big problematic issues that can never be resolved). These are things like the EU, currency etc that need to be negotiated and can’t be until post independence. They are issues the Yes campaign will always be on the back foot over as they can’t be answered. The NO camp know this and will use them as uncertainties right the way through.
So while it might seem bad, and that YES are on the back foot, in fact having these things out in the open early and debating them is the best possible scenario. Far better they come out now, and people take fright in a knee-jerk way, then there is time to debate and understand the issues, than they be swept under the carpet and suddenly emerge close to the vote. There simply is no definite answer to any of these issues and demanding them of the YES camp is daft.
What currency will an independent Scotland be using in 2020? Will we still be a monarchy? Will we be in the EU? No one knows. It will largely depend who stands for election, who we vote for, and what there is most support for. The SNP and Yes can’t give more definite answers than that and shouldn’t be seeking to. All they can say is, “this is our policy and what we believe to be the best for Scotland and this is why….” <reference fiscal commission document, for example>
Ultimately, unless people are capable of understanding that and not thrusting their hands in the air shrieking about the uncertainties inherent in democracy and independence, you’d have to question whether those people are ready for democracy and living in an independent country. If after 2 years of debate, they still prefer being led from London and not having those options for their country, what can you say, really? I’m relatively confident there is plenty of time for people to understand and accept those uncertainties, but also see the opportunities.
Morag – “At the inaugural meeting of Yes Scotland in the Borders, the lady who organised the meeting said she hoped the polls would be shifting in favour of Yes by February.”
That was a daft thing for her to say. If that had happened, I’d have been worried because it would have suggested to me that momentum had come too early and would swing back towards No by the time the referendum came around. The only way the polls could have shifted in our favour by February was if there had been a massive swing, and that’s not what we want – we want a slow but steady progression.
As that blog Stu linked to yesterday on Twitter shows, if things remain at the current trajectory, the polls should start going our way in about five months’ time. The fact the SNP are waiting until November to release the prospectus suggests this is the sort of timetable they’re working on as well. After all, there’s no point winning the argument in February 2013 when the referendum won’t be until September 2014.
In some ways, I’d actually be quite happy for independence to never go ahead in the polls, to maximise the number of people who go into the polling booth and think “och, it’s not going to happen anyway, so what’s the harm in voting Yes?”
Hope you don’t mind Rev but there’s an interesting post on Moridura about a disgraceful article in Scotland on Sunday yesterday! Worth a read just in case we didn’t know how low the SMS can stoop. Thank you!
You know how else played it straight? Kim Jong-il. Just sayin’.
I’m happy being behind in the polls too. The no camp are complacent because they think the status quo has a build in advantage, which is very true. But that also gives it a built in poll lead as in many ways, if someone asks “do you want independence” you’re as likely to say “no” as “don’t know” if you’re not yet convinced, or still hoping some great devo-max scheme will come along.
So I suspect the polls are misleading, as they give no detail of where people are in the process, or what they’re really thinking. The Yes camp are doing far better at trying to draw this information out. For example many polls show a majority do want the kind of powers which are basically independence, but just haven’t come around to the word yet! The no campaign isn’t even trying to make a positive case because they don’t think they have to – that, they say, is all up to the Yes campaign. Again, a certain truth to that. But when the case for independence is made, if they have nothing to refute it but scare stories, where are they really?
I’m quite happy if that side is complacent and arrogant for as long as possible.
Actually QI http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18712361
@juteman
Thanks for the heads up on Craig Murray’s article of 29/4/2013, “BBC the New Hammer of the Scots”. Essential reading, I would say, for anyone wanting to develop an evidence based approach to establishing BBC bias against Scottish independence.
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/04/bbc-the-new-hammer-of-the-scots/
i would not get overly worried about the polls thus far.
even if the one yesterday is correct it is a flawed poll yet 38% are allegedly convinced.
It also means in the alleged 62% there are no don’t knows , that is highly unlikely.
this was a “rigged” BT question ,not even based on the actual question and only about SNP.
the YES Campaign has not truly begun as yet, the building blocks are in place however the starting pistol does not go until November this year.
then and only then and in the ensuing months can we truly guage where we are.
Cath:
as they [polls] give no detail of where people are in the process, or what they’re really thinking.
Quite. Although if you have all of them, you can start to speculate based on patterns and how these have evolved.
You know what they say;
“Give them enough rope and they will hang themselves”
So far Better Together are proving this true as they have criticised themselves on many occasions, shot themselves in the foot a couple of times too. At this rate Yes and the SNP won’t have to say a word to convince people the BTs are the wrong option, they do a wonderful job on their own!
I think so far BT are doing a great job of making people really wish there was a better, more convincing, and more visible case for independence. That could be the point when some more intrepid folk start to go looking for it – in which case they’ll find it aplenty. The rest, and hopefully even the media, will be so glad to have it come November it might actually get noticed!
I suspect there are loads of people in the polls who are “not yet convinced” by what they’ve seen so far. I don’t blame them: unless they’re really into the politics, blogs etc, they won’t have seen much yet.
@Juteman and Amadeus
Thanks for the link to Craig Murray’s piece. Delighted to hear he’s pushing Salmond on BBC bias. We’re having Craig speak at a Yes event in Edinburgh South next month and I’m looking forward to getting more details from him on this.
Apart from the dopey Freudian slip, much of what has appeared in the Scotsman today about the YES campaign is correct. The YES campaign has stalled and needs a severe shaking up. The senior SNP and YES people making noises about it, know what they are talking about. The SNP ARE much too cautious about everything concerning Independence. What we need is more fervour, more shouting from the rooftops about why Independence will be good. And we need a few good strong Independence campaigners like Margo et al doing the shouting. At the moment we don’t have a YES campaign, we only have a reaction campaign to the Bitter Together campaign. I am sure they are rubbing their hands with glee at the YES pussies.
Disappointed to report that I have just spotted a ‘new’ “Butcher’s Apron” flying in a garden in the village of Kincardine o’ Neil, Deeside, Aberdeenshire. I am presuming that the folk who are flying it are declaring support for the union. Don’t get me wrong, union flags on Deeside is nothing unusual, but they usually fly over shops in Ballater and are linked to tourism and the Royal house just up the road at Balmoral. My point is that I do a fair bit of travelling all over Scotland and I could count on the fingers of one hand how many YES stickers I have seen on cars. I take on board the very well made points on here about keeping our powder dry, I largely agree. However it seems to me that there would be no harm in the YES campaign promoting a sort of ‘fly the flag for Scotland’ type campaign i.e. encouraging folk to fly the Saltire from gardens, cars etc to show support for independence. Any thoughts anyone?
So the wee fat magic fairy is at it again for no being relentlessly negative and no relentlessly telling porkies and no relentlessly trashing Scotland and its residents and everything Scottish! And he is doing it deliberately with malice aforethought! Aye!right it is shocking!
Further to my earlier post the following is worth a read. It is about Referenda tactics.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18712361
I think a few, well chosen words by YES campaign spokespeople during selective ‘live’ interviews could have a huge impact. Something along the lines of: “As you will have noted from our press release to the BBC and other media outlets…”.
This approach would, in my view, have viewers and listeners wondering why the stated position hasn’t previously been reported, and would go a long way to dispelling the ‘there are so many unanswered questions’ lazy reporting of the msm.
We are 17 months away from the referendum , only the political anoraks like us on these forums and the anti independence MSM and Broadcasters give it a thought.
The “ordinary” voter has many other things to pre occupy him at present not least of all how to get by in these austere times.
Similarly with the UK General Election minds are not in place so the poll ratings while interesting to us or other anoraks bare no resemblance to what the eventual outcome will be.
I agree we need to up the rhetoric ,however when you have a MSM and Broadcasters that will not entertain anything positive how do you achieve that?
Dare i say blogosphere, FB , Twitter etc , that is what we are doing what else can be done?
As Winnie Ewing once famously said at an SNP Conference if the SNP suggested healthy diet and excercise for the nation the MSM would find a negative spin on it.
@ a supporter
People complaining about the YES campaign for allegedly not doing more really annoys me. WE, all of us, ARE the YES campaign – so, in the spirit of our pioneering forebears – if you want something done you should be doing it yourself. Get aff yer erse for YES, say I.
And the point about the SNP and YES not refuting the BT lies. In point of fact they do issue immediate refutations – it’s just that the MSM in the main ignore them so everyone thinks the campaign isn’t doing or saying anything.
Yes. I mean, look at the current top article on NNS.
http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/referendum/7282-independent-experts-back-snp-policy-on-keeping-pound-says-mp
It’s a complete trashing of the Osborne rubbish about a sterling zone, and it’s not op-ed talking points either, it’s solid quotes from reputable experts, stacked about ten deep. It’s a howling scandal that this is not being reported anywhere in the professional media. Whose fault is that? Not Yes Scotland’s, I don’t think.
Fear. Uncertainty. Doubt.
OT, but Ed copying the Tories once more.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22341513
This time on ending the universal benefit of winter fuel payments for the elderly.
Aye, this is the next attack. Make the old and infirm feel guilty about keeping warm. Maybe even cut the cash they have to do this.
Who cares if they’ve been paying into the communal pot all their lives; they’re a burden on society old chap!
Sickening stuff.
“The SNP ARE much too cautious about everything concerning Independence. What we need is more fervour, more shouting from the rooftops about why Independence will be good. And we need a few good strong Independence campaigners like Margo et al doing the shouting.”
Totally agree with this. For all I’ve said about being relaxed about the way things are going, I am assuming we will be getting some more of this sometime – 2 years of it might be too much; if we don’t get any starting fairly soon, we’ll be losing momentum. Hard balancing act and not everyone will ever agree on the amount.
Bill, flags don’t really do it for me. I like to see the Saltire, but I’d be concerned if the campaign took too much of a flag waving turn. It’s one of the things that puts me off about the Bitters.
Bill C
I think there will come a point when things like Yes stickers or cuddly mascots or whatever will have a part to play. However, so far out they would come the day look a tad worn. However, you are right and we must play to hearts and minds of the population across the whole spectrum, adverts, give aways for the kids (happy otter of Yes or golden eagle of freedom…sort of thing) , music, flags, stickers etc. No tern should be left unstoned.
“It’s a howling scandal that this is not being reported anywhere in the professional media. ” Totally agree Morag, the problem is: How do we counter it?
“It’s a complete trashing of the Osborne rubbish about a sterling zone, and it’s not op-ed talking points either, it’s solid quotes from reputable experts, stacked about ten deep.”
Hardly surprising given “Salmond’s position” is taken from the independent fiscal commission report. 200+ pages from 4 international, eminent economists, 2 of whom have nobel prizes.
How many people will be aware of that from reading the media? And how many will be blindly believing the unionist spin that it’s all “Salmond making it up on the hoof, on the back of fag packets”? Again, BT are today spouting their usual line that “the SNP have given no thought…blah, blah, blah.”
Trouble is, the NO camp now have to make sure the truth stays buried for 18 months. If it doesn’t, they’re proven to be liars and idiots. I’m not so sure they can do that.
@HandandShrimp – I just think we need to raise the tempo a wee bit.
btw, they are still on about Newsnet, Wings etc as being “nationalist propaganda” despite the heavyweight names whose opinions are being printed there. Surely there will be a point where many big names will become utterly fed up of their views not being reported by an increasingly hysterically biased media?
“Bill, flags don’t really do it for me. I like to see the Saltire, but I’d be concerned if the campaign took too much of a flag waving turn. It’s one of the things that puts me off about the Bitters.
I take your point Cath, but I really think we need to encourage folk to show that they are in support of independence. Visitors to Scotland this summer could be forgiven if they didn’t know that an independence referendum was happening next year. At the moment we are losing the battle for hearts and minds because of unionists lies and their co-propagandists in the msm. We can post all we like on here and like minded sites, the problem is what Rod Mac was alluding to that the ordinary punter has more on his mind at the moment: However the subliminal drip feed from the msm is still reaching them by appearing in their living room every night. In a nutshell; we are not being effective enough in countering the lies, smears and distortions of the unionists and their lackeys like the BBC etc.
Bill
I agree it is time to add a wee bit of zest to things – gently at first building up to a crescendo.
On mascots can I suggest the Bitter Bonxie for the other lot.
🙂
Cath
I had hoped that the Nobel prize winners would have written to all papers repeating their conclusions, but they are not politicians and may be reluctant to counter the rubbish printed in the last week or so. However AS or NS or JS or Blair Jenkins know what they’re up against and should be sending the letters. Next time I get a cosy wee e-mail from Nicola I shall be making this point and Ihope others will too.
OMG–just realised that perhaps the noble Nobels DID write and the Editors didn’t print their letters. But they couldn’t refuse to print letters from AS.
Well, it is good to see that I have jogged a few minds out of their complacency about … “it’ll be allright on the night.” But it’s no good blaming the Bitter Mob for what they are doing, they want to win, and their campaign is classical for those supporting a status quo position, ie, just feed fear, indecision and negativity into the debate and the electorate by ridiculing the ideas and views of those who want to change things. It is up to the YES people to counteract those views not just by responding to them but by coming up with convincing proposals and options which might be followed, and frankly some good waffle too. And vigorous challenges must be made against the negativity, not just the well thought out but boring responses from the SNP and YES campaign HQ. (I seldom read them myself) Let’s get some fire in our bellies. Rev Stu does it here with his blogs and if he can do it surely the official campaigns could come up with similar sorts of things. And the MSM will publish YES stories if they are presented to them in the manner they want. And what they want is sensationalism. And I am sure we can do that too.
And the Official YES campaign and SNP need to start publicly accusing the BBC of bias and to decry its reporting of the Independence debate even though they may be accused of trying to control the media. At least that would be a big story and it wouldn’t be any worse than what is happening at present.
Too much negativity on this thread. Almost as annoying as men on another thread thinking that they are experts on women. If you think you are then you probably aren’t. (Can’t do a smiley face)
I’m quite sure the so called Butcher’s Apron will still be flown by some folks even in an Independent Scotland. Poor misguided things!
Bill,
Got my YES sticker on my car window, saw 1 in my area (Falkirk) and seen 1 on a car at Dundee last Friday.
Come closer and up to the referendum my St. Andrews flag will by flying from my window for all to see.
I suggest everyone gets a flag, or 2 and get it on prominent display closer to the vote.
Bill C, I’m totally with you on showing our support, I’ve got a Saltire at my window (I live on a busy main road in Edinburgh) and I’ve got access to a roof space with railings so there’s another Saltire and a Lion Rampant flying there 🙂
My mum’s car has a YES window sticker and a big Saltire sticker above it to make things very clear 🙂 Within the next few months I think I’ll have persauded her to get a massive Lion Rampant design on the bonnet, it’ll look totally ridiculous but it’ll stick in folks minds I reckon 🙂
Also, I’ve been really pleased to see loads of posters for a ‘Radical Independence Convention’ meeting in Edinburgh all over lamp posts, traffic lights etc. I wasn’t able to make it but I’m sure it does us good to be getting the notion of Independence out there, literally on the streets. I’d really like to see everyone who supports Indy start to make their own posters, with facts, figures, graphs, cartoons, a massive variety and attatch them to lampposts all over the place to get our individual messages about Indy out there. If posters are laminated and cable-tied then there’s no damage to public property as far as I can see. Disclaimer: I don’t know about the legality of this, anybody know? But even put up in windows etc will get the message out there. I think the more diversity the better, political party advertising turns most people off in my opinion but personal heartfelt messages are far more likely to get through.
Also, I went out for a drink last night, spoke to about 7 or 8 people about Indy (all under 30) and all were very pro, including two Italian lads who’ve lived here long enough to vote and are very keen for green reasons 🙂 I said to one lad who must’ve been about 20 to make sure all his mates were voting YES, he said no need, they were all guaranteed YES’s anyway! I know 8 isn’t exactly a massive poll sample but it gave me a really good feeling that we’re on our way. A year ago most folk I asked didn’t seem all that interested, I think that’s changed alot, I’m finding a passion when I talk to people about Indy now. We don’t need the MSM, we’ll win this face to face!
“I had hoped that the Nobel prize winners would have written to all papers repeating their conclusions,”
I’m not sure it’s up to them to do that. Why would they? However, they have been treated pretty shoddily by the media, and that must raise an eyebrow or two. How would Joseph Stiglitz feel, if he were watching or reading, to see his work traduced and dismissed by ignoramuses for political gain?
There is traction there. It doesn’t have to be used right now. In some ways there is more impact to finding out you’ve been lied to – especially deeply negative, depressing lies putting you and your country down. People will be forming an opinion now, but what about if/when they find out later that not only was the currency report written by very weighty experts, but they didn’t know this. As I said, the Bitter mob are currently making the bed on which they’ll have to lie for 18 months. It’s not enough that people don’t know the truth now – they have to keep it buried until after September next year. And even if they get their NO vote, there will be a danger to people finding out the truth too late.
Playing it straight!! Check out the CBI and their call for the Scotch Whisky Association to support the union – Herald article online now.
Apparently whisky sales benefit from the status quo. Is it time to rename the product Union Whisky? Clearly being the prime export product of an independent nation which gives the product its name, would be nothing but a hindrance.
Playing it straight! Ha, ha, ha , ha, ha, ha……!
The CBI don’t represent my business.
And how many votes do the CBI have anyway?
This is more interesting, some polling on what people in the UK believe about standards of living: http://www.resolutionfoundation.org/media/media/downloads/2015_-_The_living_standards_election.pdf. Most people seem to think they are not Better Together simply because their liiving standards are not better. And many have lost faith in politicians’ (read Westminster politicians) ability to improve things.
scotchwoman says:
29 April, 2013 at 3:58 pm
Playing it straight!! Check out the CBI and their call for the Scotch Whisky Association to support the union – Herald article online now.
Apparently whisky sales benefit from the status quo. Is it time to rename the product Union Whisky?
Better make mine a Union on the rocks 😉
That’s basically a Better Together press release printed straight as it came in, isn’t it? When the Yes camp can’t even get facts like who was on the fiscal commission that suggested keeping the currency Sterling through the media net – one of the prime things that Better Together press release published in the Herald mentions. Unbelievable. Truly.
I have been thinking about this latest BT sponsored poll and think I might have noticed something we haven’t picked up on: If there are 62% not convinced about the SNP’s vision for independence then that’s a loaded question to ask but fair enough result.
However if I am not mistaken the last poll showed that the No’s had 46% Yes 36% and don’t knows something like 18%..
So by my calculation just a few months ago 64% were not ‘convinced’ by independence of any kind, lex Salmond and the SNP’s kind.
So if this polls is saying that 62% are not convinced, at least 2% have became convinced by Alex and the SNP over the past month or so.
maybe I’m wrong about the number of don’t knows from the last poll, so can Scottish Skier or anyone else confirm? Because i’d love this to end up another spectacular own goal for the liars at BT.
@Breeks
It’s already on the rocks!
CBI? or arch Unionist McMillan who uses his position as chair at the CBI to further Union propaganda? much to the annoyance of some CBI members it might be said.
It is also worth bearing in mind that some of the companies that have bought into the whisky industry are anything but Scottish and are not based here. These are not people we can necessarily trust to put our interests before their own.
That poll was nothing but a way to aggregate the No and Don’t Know categories into a single group to give a Big Scary Number that could be headlined. Looked at calmly, it’s actually a 38% definite Yes vote, which ain’t bad at the moment and continues to reinforce the impression that Yes is gaining ground.
O/t
Tried to comment on the Herald article (re whisky) but I think it may have upset someone;
“Why not just type “here is today’s press release from Better Together” and reprint the guff you have been sent. At least that would be honest.
So who does the CBI speak for in Scotland and who don’t they?
http://calumcashley.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/cbi-scotland-who-does-it-speak-for.html
http://calumcashley.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/whos-not-in-cbi.html”
Don’t know what the problem could be – can anyone help?
It’s also very loaded. People who are definite yes voters could quite easily “not be convinced by the SNPs vision” of it. If they’re resorting to such loaded questions, that kind of suggests their straight “should Scotland be independent: yes/no” ones – ie the referendum question – might not be giving the results they want.
@Patrick
Follow the good online (in terms of sampling) polls (e.g. ICM, Angus Reid, Panelbase). The telephone (MORI) and face to face (MORI) are not telling the ‘truth’ (a lot of the time).
If you plot up Y vs N, Y vs DK, N vs DK, attempt to correlate, and compare T/F2F with OL, you’ll see something very interesting. Reasons? I’ve speculated on these before… You can’t know exactly what people are thinking. A poll just gives you their answer, rarely the reasons for it. Crucially, people don’t always tell the truth when asked either, particularly in ‘public’ (face to face or on the blower) when it is something of a sensitive matter (voting intention).
I’d place my bets on the last two Panelbase being not far off for this reason. Just watch MORI and TNS for trends, not absolute numbers.
I wonder if CBI support the Union charging the Scotch Whisky Industries £3,000 a go, to host events at British Embassies.
Don’t know if it’s true or not but I’ve heard the CBI membership is somewhat less than 26,000 – aye, by about 25,900 less.
What is it with BT lot and their maths?
o/t again, sorry
The Herald whisky article is only an hour old – could this be a rush job to counter the Scottish governments newly announced export strategy?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-22338828
Riddoch’s piece is a joke – she lambasts Salmond for not getting his mug on tv, but if you ain’t invited to appear, then there’s not much you can do about it.
Yet another journalist failing miserably to address the role of the pro-unionist media in all of this.
Here’s a wee hint. If you don’t think enough is being done to push the YES point then GET OF YOUR ARSE and do more. Buy a YES sticker, buy several and give them to friends buy badges and wear one buy lots and give them away. Flying flags doesn’t do it for you? tough shit, It is an identifier of our national being and the oldest flag still in use in Europe possibly the world. Fly it with pride Stop moaning about how hard done by we are. Hunch your shoulders and battle on into the storm, WORK, you stand on the shoulders of giants. My mother died at the age of 100 believing in independence and having fought for it. Did you think it was going to be easy? that the British were just going to roll over and surrender their last colony? Stop buggering about wondering how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I don’t have too many years left and I want to live in an independent Scotland.
Suas Alba.
While their are many things I agree with from the comments that are posted about this article, I dont believe we have to worry to much about the NO campaign’s message so far.
They are already starting to repeat themselves with their negative tripe, and frankly they dont appear to have to much else to say about trying to down Scottish independence, its usally “currencey, EU, euro, closing clyde shipyards, oil running out” basicly all they have to say is your “too poor, too stupid, too small”.
My way of dealing with any unionist crap, is to take the person on in front of witness’es, laugh at their arguements and hit them with some soild facts, and totally refuse to back down regardless of the circumstances. So maybe its time for the YES campaign and its supporters to take on the BBC & MSM and tell them its time to play it straight and do it at every opportinuity few though they may be.
A few caustic comments directed at the BBC bias during interviews and a few public walkouts as well should make a few headlines that the MSM can’t avoid publishing.
Our problem is not the “NO campaign” as they have absolutely nothing to offer Scotland that we can not tear apart, our problem is the “bias mainstream media” and if they are not going to play fair then drop them totally, refuse to answer any questions from them, refuse interviews etc and let everyone know why. And concentrate on the social media (internet etc) and putting the message across verbally on the ground, door to door, we have the people we have the positivity, we have the ability, screw the BBC & the MSM if they won’t play fair ignore them, kick their stuffing ball over the wall and lets go and play on another pitch. They can go and play with themselves.
Vote YES, Vote for fairness, Vote Scotland.
Alba Gu snooker loopy!
If 10,000 pro-independence supporters delivered 200 leaflets each, that’s TWO MILLION letter boxes. That I think is do-able. The MSM is not going to do anything for us, like Mosstrooper says, it’s bums off seats that’s going to get this country moving to YES, and like any revolution it’s people power that will deliver it!
@Davy.
Voters in Scotland will know that they (MSM) are biased. The way you get your message across is through the MSM (among other methods). Picking a fight would only serve as a distraction. It is very annoying the way they are acting though.
Dcanmore
The SNP is publishing a newspaper next month which will be delivered to 2.4 million households.
However one doorstep visit is worth five leaflets and that is the only way we can allay the genuine fears that many voters have about the unknown.
On the complaining to the BBC about bias….it would be hugely counter productive….as the old saying goes ‘Naebody likes a clype’….
Plus there are strict rules governing the broadcast media in the run up to elections and referendums……for the crucial last 16 weeks of the campaign….both sides get equal air time…..if the Beeb is still pumping out Pro Unionist propaganda……that’s the time to complain when all of Scotland will paying attention and take notice.
I agree with Cath and Doug…..all the Unionist straw men are basically now out and the YES campaign can methodically torch them at a time of their own choosing…..to use a fitba analogy in a title race it disnae really matter where you are in August it’s where you are come may that matters……
It’s those last 16 weeks that (if Quebec is anything to go by) that will see the huge swings in the polls towards YES….
There may also be certain unrelated events that feed in and boost that….a successful Commonwealth Games, a UKIP victory in the Euro Elections and of course in the sporting arena….Murray winning Wimbledon and England doing well at the World Cup…
It will also be the time Sun/Daily Record man will finally engage in the debate…..to be honest it’s not a ‘water cooler’ conversation right now…..as with all politics the overwhelming majority of people really don’t pay that much attention into the final few weeks……in September 2014 I can almost guarentee folk will talk about almost nothing else (once they’ve discussed what happened on TOWIE or Strictly Come Dancing or other such pish of course)
Take last year, Salmond at Leveson was a big thing politically……in most of the workplaces around Scotland Leveson didnae register……folk we’re more interested in whether Alex Salmond had made a phone call to HMRC about Rangers.
I think when the history of this campaign is written, historians will conclude that BT’s problems was they went too early, too loudly and too often with the scare stories…..whilst Yes Scotland built up slowly and had a positive story to tell and thats who Scotland became independent
As a campaigner over many decades leaflets and “Party Newspapers are not worth the effort.
The vast majority end up in the bin or are used to light the BBQ.
The internet and social media are our best weapon.
we also need to speak to the ones that rarely vote the disenfranchised.
obama and his campaign team did this most successfully in USA.
The middle class I’m alright jacks are our worst demographic and a lost cause.
It is those not on the voters roll the ones with most to gain from a fairer more just society we need to be talking to.
@Rod Mac
The middle class I’m alright jacks are our worst demographic and a lost cause.
A section are not. There are probably a large element who will vote No though. They are Tory in all but name.
Have read Lesley Riddoch’s article. Actually think it makes some good points, and I agree with others that she offers a sound warning against being complacent as it is the other lot that are being negative.
In that spirit, maybe we should advocate that people should vote YES as we are bound to be “Better Together” as citizens of an Independent Scotland.
This is possibly just what we need. Makes vg reading.
People, not technology are what wins elections. We can do this!
http://www.bluestatedigital.com/blog/entry/people-not-technology-are-what-wins-elections/
@Mosstrooper – Agree with the thread of your post. my family and I are doing most of what you suggest.
@K Mackay – Spot on, fly the flag but not sure about the Lion Rampant on your mum’s car bonnet, think of the resale value!
@alexicon- Spot on.
Ofcourse, just ignore the last couple of paragraphs in there!
Re the whisky story, just declared on the Herald comments that I am off down the pub for a Britch, sure beats that Scotch nonsense!
I’m not sure if people are not that interested.
Just look at how the unique vissitor numbers have been steadily increasing in NNS and Wings.
This seems to indicate that people are taking an increasingly active part in what is happening and also shows a very good way to get our message accross.
If every one who reads Wings told one person per week about this site, just how many readers would we end up with?
All of the leaflets, newspapers, person to person and bloggs will each have some kind of impact, but I do think that convincing people to at least spend some time reading articles on here and NNS etc, is one of the best ways to get our message out there.
The other night a Scottish comedian and games enthusiast was on a panel on Scotland Tonight discussing a future for the games industry in Scotland.
He volunteered that he was for Independence and saw the benefits it would bring to the industry.
He was closed down by the interviewer who gave short
shrift to bringing Independence into the discussion, but
all who are pro Independence should bring it into such
conversations when interviewed as the pactical
application of Independence which will make it real to
people
As
@rodmac
The middle class I’m alright jacks are our worst demographic and a lost cause.
What’s the definition of middle class here? Take the readership of this site I’d say there’s a fair few who would, for survey purposes, fall into that category.
I have seen the polling evidence using the marketing NRS social grades based on occupation. And by that measurement there are ABC1’s here too.
I don’t think it makes sense to write off a perceived group of people as a lost cause.
The great strength, imo, is the broad range of YES voters. We all agree where we’ll put our cross next September, possibly one of the few things we do all agree on. As I keep saying, let’s get over the line first, which as @Mosstrooper so eloquently put means persuading as many people, whatever their ‘class’ to see the no brainerness* of voting YES.
*I realise it’s a made up term!
Get voting and posting, The No’s having nothing to offer. http://www.debate.org/opinions/should-scotland-become-an-independent-nation
Just read lesley Riddochs article.
I must say I am very pleased that it is being repeated as a matter of fact by even the MSM that BT are running a negative campaign.
This is sending a message out that BT are not genuinely concerned about EU/Currency etc, but just being negative.
This is bound to get people thinking. which is what we need. 😉
i note another “poll” headline in DM today stating that 2/3 of people in a BT commissioned poll gave independence the thumbs down. More clap trap followed by “Mr Salmond and the pro-independence campaign are accused of being ‘dishonest and disorganised’ barely 18 months before voters decide on the future of the 300-year-old Union.” Getting sick to the back teeth of all the lies and misinformation they are churning out day after day.
we all know that the MSM and BBC will not give us a fair crack of the whip.
we all know it is unfair ,and we can spend the next 17 months on here bleating and greeting about it , or go and do something about it.
Some think the YES tactics are good in the long term ,some of us do not.
we all agree on one thing if we get a No Vote we get nothing.
Each and every Yes voter only has to convert one No Voter or enthuse two non voters to actually vote this time and we win the referendum.
I am presently working on 3 can’t be bothered ever voting types and 1 don’t know.
The committed No I do not even bother to waste my time, closed minds and unlikely to be convinced ,just as it is impossible to change my mind from YES.
So get out there and convince some others do not wait in Blair Jenkins or Alex Salmond to do it all for us we all need to work to get the correct outcome
A reply from America to an email sent by PCurran re article in SOS
http://moridura.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/independence-and-americas-scottish.html
A random thought from an old man about races and winners. In a race you pace yourself and observe the opposition working out their strengths and weaknesses against your own, not leading the pack but in touch with the front runners.This is the planning stage where you work out your strategy and overtaking moves, keeping in touch but not threatening. In my experience you take the lead at the last possible moment and go like hell on the home straight thereby taking the opposition by surprise and not allowing them time for a countermeasure!
Alex thingy ,err whats his name, stout jovial fellow , follows the cuddies?
O/T
Bizarre tweet from BT mob
“Scotland imports 58% of food from EU. How would an independent Scotland feed its people outside the EU? Another reason to vote no”
@Muttley79,
I must disagree with you, the BBC & MSM think they are immune to criticism from any person or organisation that supports Scottish independence and they delight in it. So why not teach them otherwise with a short sharp shock followed by completely ignoring them.
Why give them any of our resources instead concentrate on “social media”, public-meetings and door to door, until such time as the independence campaign gets a fair shake from the so-called MSM. And through the internet let the outside world know how Scotland is being treated by our bias “state” broadcaster. As I indicated in my earlier post we need to stop playing their game and start playing our own.
Its very obvious that the YES campaign is never going to get anything like fairness from the BBC unless we fight for it ourselves. Most of the MSM are privately owned and think no-one will touch them for their bias & spin, their wrong, they need to sell, with the internet we don’t need to buy.
Finally, it may be time for our Scottish government to request an outside monitor to report on the current state of media reporting within the UK regarding the referendum, with a monthly report being generated for the benefit of Holyrood, Westminster, the EU and UN.
Alba Gu snooker loopy!
@southernscot
Isn’t that a spoof account? Can’t be real, surely?
@Albalha
Genuine, looks like we’ll all starve in an independent Scotland. lol
@Weedeochandorris
Blue State Digital (BSD), whose technology supports BitterTogether, take an approach to electioneering which combines high-tech profiling of swing voters combined with an army of volunteers to target exactly those people. The profiling technology they used in Obama’s 2012 campaign is based on “Machine Learning” and “Data Mining” techniques; they are using cutting edge research methodologies in computer science to achieve this. THEIR approach for BitterTogether is to focus all energy and time of their grassroots on the SWING voters their algorithms identify. The recent large scale texting of BitterTogether discussed on WoS recently is the beginning of their PROFILING exercise. Those who support Independence should not underestimate the scientific basis underpinning BSD’s technology. Two weaknesses of their strategy are.
the legality of their Texting Campaign – see News Net Scotland’s article and my comments on the discussion board of 27/04/2013 http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/7276-anger-at-text-stunt-as-better-together-acquires-personal-mobile-phone-info
The scale of their grassroots campaign
Therefore YES campaigner’s should aim to defeat them on both these fronts.
@southernscot
Och well it’ll take us some way to sorting out all our health problems, if it is real, just had a look, seems anybody with a property will have it taken off them in an independent Scotland.
Madness!
@Rod Mac
Agreed Rod. The media’s not for turning much like their bosses in W1, nor will they right up through polling day. Not the YES campaign or indeed the SG can change the way things are. We are the independence movements best chance of convincing others. Folks like the Rev and sites like NNS, Bella and (cough) that other lot over on BBC Scotlandshire (y’know the official most popular political wossiname 😀 ), they are the collective news media of independence.
No its not fair, not right and it sure as hell ain’t democracy, but it is the way it is. By all means we should highlight this fact as often as we can, but changing it is not going to happen pre referendum. Much more happy being pro active, getting out there and talking to people. I tend to gravitate toward the disenfranchised political cynic, having first hand experience of that particular position I can empathise with the mindset. 🙂
@Albalha
just rechecked its not the genuine BT mob.
@Davy,
Why give them any of our resources instead concentrate on ”social media”, public-meetings and door to door, until such time as the independence campaign gets a fair shake from the so-called MSM. And through the internet let the outside world know how Scotland is being treated by our bias “state” broadcaster. As I indicated in my earlier post we need to stop playing their game and start playing our own.
Its very obvious that the YES campaign is never going to get anything like fairness from the BBC unless we fight for it ourselves. Most of the MSM are privately owned and think no-one will touch them for their bias & spin, their wrong, they need to sell, with the internet we don’t need to buy.
I can’t agree with you there. We are not going to get a fair crack of the whip from the MSM anyway. Regardless of what we do the BBC are going to take the same approach as they are doing. There really is no point in withdrawing from interviews etc. We should not limit ourselves to only using social media. The MSM includes newspapers, and their sales have fallen heavily in Scotland.
@ AmadeusMinkowski. Just lets us know what we’re up against. Agreed on the totaly illegal texting but they will get away with it like they seem to have with the mucky money. We know they are definately going to fight dirty. What do you mean by ‘the scale of their grassroots campaign’ being a weakness? We definately have to play the game better than they do.
@muttley/rod: If you look at that Resolution Foundation polling stuff – as a reminder, it’s here – you’ll see that there’s not much I’m all right jack to be found in their poll. Look at the slide on page 15: only 27% of those with a gross household income between £40k and £70k believe things will get better quickly, significantly lower than the proportion who believe that at the top and bottom of the scale. Over 40% of people said it would take at least 6 years for things to recover.
If you’re up for defending the status quo, you’ve got a problem. It’s crap and, worse yet, people know it’s not going to get better soon. Independence might be scarier than a happy union that exists only in fairy tales. Whether it’s any more terrifying than the dismal reality you can see outside your window right here, right now (h/t Michael Kelly), well that’s a whole different story.
From Herald newsdesk
Look out for latest on No campaign funding row tomorrow from Robbie Dinwoodie. Also great stories from our educ’ and local gov writers.
@southernscot
Ah thought so, though the fact we were wavering, says it all really.
That BBC page about winning a referendum made me think: We need to be attacking on the risk of a NO vote. Do you trust the NHS will be safe if Scotland votes NO; Do you trust George Osborne can run an economy if Scotland votes NO; Do you trust that the Scottish Parliament won’t be disbanded if Scotland votes NO; Do you trust that Trident will be scrapped if Scotland votes NO. The risk to Scotland is the NO vote, not the YES vote. That message is vital.
@ Weedeochandorris
Obama’s grassroots campaign was so large that on voting day, targeted voter’s profiled as too lazy to vote would be personally called and offered a ride to the voting booth. This is just an example. There is no way that BT can develop such a large grass roots network; their vision is Negativity and Fear, and their positions are largely based on Distortion, Deception and sometimes down right lies, and that will never engender a large base of activists. The YES campaign, being completely the opposite can Those who believe in independence must therefore organise, and translate such large scale enthusiasms into “boots on the ground”, both throughout the campaign, and yes, even on Sep. 18’th, 2014 for car rides!
southernscot
These damn spoof sites! They are indistinguishable from the real thing! 🙂
@Muttley79,
Its looks like we will just have to agree to disagree, which is fair enough. I will still walk the road towards independence with you with a smile on my face, a song in my heart and a hefty boot towards any “BT’s” we meet on the way.
Hail Alba.
@ Ian Mackay
I agree. One way to approach that is to find examples of those outside the Independence debate to speak directly to the risks of a No Vote. Two example immediatly springs to mind
i) Max Kaiser of the “Kaiser Report”. His recent Thatcher edition is particularly good
http://rt.com/shows/keiser-report/keiser-report-rpisode-430-626/
ii) On the opposite side of the spectrum there is the so-called “Artist Taxi Driver”, who posts daily You-Tube clips on the terrible things happening south of the border: e.g., privation of the NHS, the corruption of Westminister etc. He has quite a following, and even Max Kaiser has appeared on one of his clips. You have to filter out his blue language, but in a real sense he represents the enormous frustration of many workers in the UK. His instalment today is representative: “Drone pig army destruction of welfare NHS and legal aid”.
The man on the street will appreciate the “Artist Taxi driver” I believe.
I was staying with an American friend shortly before the 2008 presidential election. She was an Obama supporter, and had a sticker on her car. She was constantly being approached and greeted by other Obama supporters. She took a call shortly before I left asking if she could put up some grass-roots activists coming to work in her area, and offered them the run of her house as soon as her Scottish friend had gone!
The up-beat positivity and indeed joy of that campaign was tangible. I remember hugging a black guy in a fedora who had come across to high-five with my friend – who was also black – and wishing him good luck at the polls. The hope and the excitement were just wonderful, as was the sheer size and enthusiasm of the grass-roots support.
Bitter Together don’t have the numbers, and they don’t have the enthusiasm, and above all they don’t have the positivity, the excitement or the hope for a better and brighter future that was all over the Obama campaign in 2008.
Whatever Blue State Digital think they’re going to do with the BT campaign, they simply don’t have the material to work with to do what the Obama campaign did.
@morag
The scale of enthusiasm for the Obama campaign of 2012 was definitively and substantively less than in 2008. However, their technological advance for the 2012 campaign made up for this deficit. Make no mistake, those fighting for YES should be pushing back against any Data Protection violations of BitterTogether. “Data Driven Science” is the new kid on the block within US electioneering, and it provably worked in 2012; all the major polling were not accurate prior to the 2012 presidential election, predicting a much closer race. The Obama’s technology team was the hidden ingredient that pollster’s could not factor in.
@ Ian Mackay
Sorry, wrong link for Artist Taxi Driver’s “Drone pig army destruction of welfare NHS and legal aid”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI4-htpN4rQ&list=UUGThM-ZZBba1Zl9rU-XeR-A
The other clip “wheres daddys pig the second leg” is also pretty representative of the Artist Taxi Driver’s deconstruction of the Austerity Myth. The blue language may be a problem for some, but there are plenty of everyday people whom I believe will respond positively to this; i.e., towards YES!
Re The Obama Campaign in 2012. The campaign offices all over the swing states had been canvassing by personal door knocking and telephoning to identify support for the President in trying to build on the canvass information from the 2008 campaign. This was supplemented with the BSD computer system that needed this information to work on.
The No campaign don’t have a lot of canvass information and that is why they are resorting to all these blind spam emails. The Yes campaign have far more information as the SNP has been asking the Yes, No D/K question for a number of years.
From what I can gather this Blue State Digital could be a worry. I would suggest that anyone that receives one of these text messages should respond with misinformation and advise others to do likewise. Like all computer information, what goes in is what comes out.
@marcia
Their would have been a feedback as personalised data was acquired with the BSD Machine Learning Algorithims. You don’t need a comprehensive data set to develop reliable models to profile voters and their leanings. So the door-to-door work would have been highly targeted in the end, only hitting those spots likely to bear fruit and otherwise unlikely to contribute; i.e., 3-5% of the voting public in the 2012 Obama race. The question is who is that 3-5%? If you can effectively find them, which is the strength of the BSD approach, then you simply hone down on them. A rough guess-estimate would say that 5% of the voting population in Scotland is 150, 000; a thousand (paid) conscripts to the BitterTogether cause would then have to make contact with 150 each. But then you have 500 days, so 1 every 3 days per person. So again, I would say that YES should be pushing back against any Data Protection Infringements. From the News Net Scotland forum of 27 April 2013,
http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/7276-anger-at-text-stunt-as-better-together-acquires-personal-mobile-phone-info
there are a number of good suggestions posted on how YES might proceed with that. e.g., “s Subject Access Request (SAR) under the Data Protection Act is a sure fire way of causing problems for BT”
So, spread the word, and let’s get those SAR’s rolling in. The more the merrier!
@ The Man in the Jar
Great care should be taken in responding to any such text messages. From the Newsnet Scotland article
http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/7276-anger-at-text-stunt-as-better-together-acquires-personal-mobile-phone-info
you will find the following:
“They gave a link for smartphone users which said it would give more info, but then said ‘or text UKOK’ which looked as though it was also just a way to get more info.
“People may have sent a text believing they were getting more info and instead have been logged as backers of No. Worse, they will also have been charged so might have inadvertently helped fund Better Together.”
Subject Access Request protocol:
You have the right to get a copy of the information that is held about you. This is known as a subject access request.
This right of subject access means that you can make a request under the Data Protection Act to any organisation processing your personal data. The Act calls these organisations ‘data controllers’.
You can ask the organisation you think is holding, using or sharing the personal information you want, to supply you with copies of both paper and computer records and related information.
See
http://ico.org.uk/for_the_public/personal_information
If someone has the time or inclination, a template application could be produced to enable everyone so inclined to submit this to BitterTogether. Any takers?
Helpful intervention from Paddy Ashdown on the dirty money story in today’s Herald.
Jim Fairlie up to his old tricks with a headline in the Hootsman. An agent provocateur if ever there was one!
@AmadeusMinkowski i like the way you’re thinking. Thanks for the leg up re grassroots 🙂 If we can get people mobilised, with forward momentum, hopefully it will be tanking in perfect time for the last 16weeks. Also, if its an upbeat enjoyable experience with positive vibes (and high fives:)) I believe that will definately help win the day. A lot of folks will be sick listening to all that negative, nasty stuff from BT, I hope they keep it up, turning more people right off. I do wonder about their strategy though and cant imagine they’re all that stupid so, i would think they must have something else up their sleeve?
Anyway, important point in the BBC article not to peak too soon, the tortoise and the hare springs to mind. I think AS is a master tactitian and that may well be his approach. For my part I email friends important articles from here, NNS (sometimes even the negative ones like the swastika abomination from the Sman) which help to get the juices flowing. Just incase they dont see them and to help keep whats going on firmly to the fore in some minds because there is some complacency. I dont bombard them, just the occasional nudge. Drip, drip, drip 🙂
@AmedeusMinkowski-
Do you know whether or not these ‘subject access requests’ can be made of the BBC?
Been looking for the Ashdown story about the dodgy NO campaign donation in the herald but it seems to be missing this morning from the online version which is going with the name for the new bridge as its headline??
Is something going on? has the story been mysteriously pulled? or am I blind and have missed it somewhere?
It seems to have been fused with another story:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/baby-and-three-women-in-crash-ashdown-condemns-better-together-cash-from-tycoon.20947151
If anything, I suspect BT’s text/media campaign has garnered as much or more interest in YesScotland looking at FB stats.
Quite possibly the law of unintended consequences at play.
It’s certainly one thing to remember – if you spark interest in the debate, unless it is a hardcore unionist you have made contact with, they’re highly likely to go look at both sides of the argument…
National collective have a photo of the print version on their FB page
http://tinyurl.com/bmorhqx
An interesting ‘Herolds view’ in the online version today.
Basicly saying that a No vote would bring uncertainty, but a Yes vote would bring certainty!
Rev: that article only shows the headline, nothing else. Odd, or a coincidence?
I know you dont like people going off post rev but I think people might be interested
this is a copy of a response I sent to Mr Thomas Rymer after his response to me about ODIHR involvement in the lead up to the referendum I’ll keep you posted on whatever the reply is
To: info@osce.org
In response to your recent communication to me,
might I say thank you for your prompt response and I am grateful you should take the time to do so ,
however I do feel the content of your response opened up a schism in the connection between the OSCE and the electorates they are there to protect,
as in the case of Scotland the body who stand to gain by no involvement of the ODIHR is the only body you say is entitled to ask for your input which would be the UK government,
As Scotland has a devolved parliament and the Scottish people (as opposed to Westminster ) are sovereign in Scotland I would imagine a case for your involvement of the basis that you have been invited by the sovereign masters of Scotland is justification enough for the protection your body offers,
or is it the case that protection is held solely for the support of the governments who’s duplicitous actions are preventing (or attempting to) the right of the people of Scotland to fair and balanced reporting by using a corporation who demand our money on pain of imprisonment to support them but refuse point blank to honor their own editorial commitment (http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/editorialguidelines/page/guidelines-editorial-values-charter/)to present a balanced approach to reporting,
might I suggest you cast your eye over this article http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/04/bbc-the-new-hammer-of-the-scots/
which is indicative of the belief most Scots have of the BBC
in summary I would strongly urge your office to take a stand in regards to the forthcoming referendum in Scotland or stand aside and watch a travesty take place
john king
@john king
I look forward to a response. As I indicted on Craig’s blog, it may be that the ODIHR can not respond to an individual, but can to a “government”. In which case as you point out, as what point does a representative body become a ‘de facto’ government? Is the Welsh Assembly a ‘government’ for the Welsh peoples? What about Stormont? I had the same misgivings as you when I saw the initial response.
It really is not good enough to pontificate about fairness etc. when the very organisations that are supposed to do the exposing will not respond to a plea from concerned citizens who are at the recieving end of the bias!
Silver19 – thanks for the link on the debate.org, however wish you had warned on the vile and ill-informed comments from the No camp.
Who are these people who do nothing but talk down Scotland, sometimes I am truly ashamed of my fellow countrymen. I am happy to accept there are people who believe in the Union, but these comments do not reflect any form of reasoning.
Just had a quick read of the Fairlie sourced, ‘let’s not have the pound’, Scotsman article. From my scan it looks like Mr Barnes is now trawling this site http://www.optionsforscotland.com/ for stories and then padding them out with the usual suspects.
First time I’d come across Mr Wilson and Mr Fairlie’s site, and people wonder why the SNP have their critics.
Anyway the sun is shining and I’m off to hawk my wares around Highland Perthshire, Loch Tay here I come.
Thanks Rev but still getting nothing regards the Ashdown story in The Herald. Will check later as sometimes The Herald have a knack of messing up their links.
@John King
A good letter – getting right to the heart of it. Bet the ODIHR officials had never even understood the irony of the situation! Well they surely will now.
It will be interesting to see the response you get now.
Will also be interesting to see what Craig Murray does next.
Patrick
That’s a very prescient article by Harry Reid and one which all Unionists should read.
Here be Ashdown.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/paddy-ashdown-condemns-better-together-cash-from-tycoon.1367309464
@Weedeochandorris
Glad to help and also happy to hear your working towards building up your own grass roots community. If every one reading the Independent blogs like this one, NewsNet Scotland, National Collective etc. does the same, we are already in business. Couple that to co-ordinating efforts of YesScotland, and you have a freight train!
On that issue, have you considered getting involved in YesScotland events/efforts? If not, you might be interested in the range of opportunities offered their to build up grass-roots activity. See
http://www.yesscotland.net/join_an_event
Simply plug in your postcode and click the distance you are willing to travel, and see what’s available. This would considerably extend your reach. My experience is that when you allow those leaning NO, or better still the DON’t KNOWS, to express their reasons (often fed by MSM led scaremongering) one can readily and gently dismantle those views with hard, verifiable facts. The top 10 unionist myths video is a useful tool to brush up on your rebuttals.
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/03/19/top-10-unionist-myths-debunked-banned-then-re-debunked/
@ianbrotherhood ” Do you know whether or not these ‘subject access requests’ can be made of the BBC?”
Not sure. The post from NNS by #amimmortal
http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/7276-anger-at-text-stunt-as-better-together-acquires-personal-mobile-phone-info
would be a good place to explore this further. Content listed below, as it may make for interesting reading for others here. Keep us posted on what you discover.
#amimmortal 2013-04-27 19:37
wrote
“As an alternative to the Telecommunicati ons Act, making a Subject Access Request (SAR) under the Data Protection Act is a surefire way of causing problems for BT.
They have 40 days to respond, may only charge a nominal fee to do it, and face fines (per breach and individual) if they are found in breach of the Data Protection Principles. Fines are imposed by the Information Commissioners Office if such action can be justified).
In any event, it you could certainly spin some bad press for the BT campaign.
If I received one of these messages, I would raise an SAR against BT to establish where they got my information, and where they obtained my consent to be contacted.
If enough people do this, it could cripple their admin department and expose them to significant breaches of Data Protection Act.
It would also cost them money, which can only be a good thing.”
Dan Hind is tweeting some interesting stuff today, promoting his new book. It looks predominantly about republicanism, but the media are a big target of his.
One thing he says, which to me entirely sums up why the SNP/Yes are being fairly quiet over the currency, EU etc is this:
“Don’t be drawn into a debate you cannot win, in an information environment you cannot control.”
Strikes me this is exactly what BT are trying to do – to drag the debate into the finer details of things which cannot be resolved before the referendum and are, by their nature, uncertain – the wicked issues. And to drag everyone into that debate through the channels of an entirely biased media.
I suspect the Yes side are entirely right not to allow themselves to be drawn into this trap but to let BT bluster, let the media lie their little socks off. All the lies have been long since exposed and refuted – the fact the media aren’t reporting any of these sources shows why being drawn into debate now would be wrong. But essentially, Yes cannot win an argument which essentially says, “there are uncertainties around independence”: there are.
Pick your battles, and steer clear of those environments which are entirely hostile to hold them in.
That Dan Hind book, in case anyone is interested:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Maximum-Republic-ebook/dp/B00ACO71DI/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1367311744&sr=1-1&keywords=dan+hind
@Cath – “Don’t be drawn into a debate you cannot win, in an information environment you cannot control.” Sounds like good advice to me.
@AmadeusMinkowski-
Thanks for that. Will look into it.
Cath,
That was one brilliant, insightful and well written post. It certainly rings true and soothes the few worries that continually resurface despite my usually positive outlook. Many thanks
@ianbrotherhood
No problem. By the way, just looked at a BBC web-page seeking participants for a “Independence Debate” and noted that they are gathering substantial information there. What are the guarantees does the BBC give that this information is secure, and is not disclosed/sold to 3rd parties? They state
“The information you provide will be collected by the BBC. Are you happy for your email details to be retained so that we may contact you about appearing in the audience for other BBC programmes?”
So, perhaps there is a SAR request route there after all.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-22358121
Following Cath @ 11:00am, thoroughly recommend Dan Hind’s books to readers too. ‘Maximum Republic’ was preceded by ‘The Return of the Public’ (2010) and ‘The Threat to Reason’ (2007) published by Verso.
Here’s a taste from the cover of the second book of what he is getting at to get to (my bold):
” Dan Hind* historically traces how political and intellectual elites constructed deeply ambiguous ideas of the public, designed to serve their own ends and preserve the status quo.
After the 2nd World War. as women, ethnic minorities, the young and the working majority became more assertive and self-confident, the propertied and their allies in the state made fresh attempts to deny most of us a public identity.
The financial crisis, and the ability of those who caused it to preside over policy-making in its aftermath, have made it impossible to ignore what has been long obvious: the institutions on which most of us rely for our knowledge of the wider world have become radically and demonstrably unaccountable and unsafe.
For decades, the public has been told to leave democracy to the experts. Now, Hind outlines a way forward for a new participatory politics, one based on the wholesale reform of the media. After the failure of the private, now is the time for the return of the public. ”
So here we are in the peopled blogosphere, ranged against what the BBC and MSM of the status quo regard as what we need to know in our interests as they deem fit for theirs. Hence the absolutely essential nature and extent of the ground campaign to get out what would otherwise not get out so that folk can – in the light of their own experience and in their own time (if and when available) – examine by comparing and contrasting with the staged productions from the media circus that never sleeps in the relentless daily recycling of its pay to see (be)wares.
The more we do so, the more we become our own democracy, enlightened by being grounded in reality as we live and know it.
And it is by being armed with our own reality, individually or as groups, that we can make our views known in ‘information environments’ including gatherings we can be reasonably sure of contributing to even without overall control.
Interdicted or spent ammunition negates air supremacy.
[* Among others campaigning for public funded reporting and investigative journalism, Dan Hind’s work has informed Pat Kane – see his 9 Apr ‘thoughtland’ softly softly wooing of ‘Media under Indy: prez to Scotsman Conference and Scotsman essay.’ ]