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Wings Over Scotland

Counting With Scottish Labour

Posted on February 16, 2019 by

A little snippet in today’s Times caught our eye earlier.

As alert readers may recall from our numerous investigations into the enduring enigma that is Scottish Labour’s membership figures, at the end of 2014 the branch office was claiming to have either 14,000 or 20,000 members.

And even in a world where 38% is “almost half” and five is half of seven, there’s still no way you can get 21,000 to be “almost double” either 14,000 or 20,000.

Were Labour lying in 2014, or are they lying now, or (and this is our guess) were they lying both times and their real membership is nothing like any of those unverified, unscrutinised, plucked-from-the-air numbers?

We’ll probably never know, and it’ll almost certainly never matter.

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102 to “Counting With Scottish Labour”

  1. cynicalHighlander says:

    Whose Scottish Labour?

  2. Normski says:

    Easy peasy to answer.

    In the up-coming Clacks Central by-election here – BliS have been dredging their VoterID database in order to find people sympathetic to them – and asking them to stand as a Labour candidate – even if they are not currently a member of the British Nationalist Unionist Labour Party.

    Can’t imagine how that makes the canditate now selected feel.

  3. Wulls says:

    Last sentence says it all.

  4. Cubby says:

    They are Britnats they were lying all the time.

  5. jezza says:

    And just to confuse it even more, are Labour Party memberships not linked to Union memberships as well???

  6. Chris Kilby says:


  7. Fairliered says:

    Their true membership number is 5,687. The figures in their Times article were compiled using Jackie Baillie’s calculator.

  8. geeo says:

    Perhaps the truth is, since Scottish Labour is, according to the Labour Party Constitution (Clause 3. The Party financial scheme) an ACCOUNTING UNIT, their membership figures are zero ?

  9. Iain says:

    Sad, to say the branch office of the labour party are a bunch of fannys then again they may be just future indy suporters.
    So better not be too hard on them.

  10. Shug says:

    I am sure we will hear about it on call Kaye or question time

    Ha ha ha

    Some time soon

  11. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Anyone fancy a book on how many will bother turning up for Bouncy Dick’s keystone, sorry, keynote speech in the Caird Hall?

    The place has a capacity of 2,000 and it seems SLab is giving away tickets to the very young, the very old, those who are members of the Mickey Mouse and/or Throbbing Stonner Societies and anyone who can touch their nose with their tongue.

    What’s the betting they still won’t get more than, say, 500 to watch Richard in action?


  12. galamcennalath says:

    There was a Scottish Labour Party from 1976–1981 with Jim Sillars, John Robertson, and Alex Neil. The present northern branch of the Labour Party cannot justifiably be referred to as ‘Scottish’. It is a pro Union, British Nationalist, London based organisation.

    So the first BIG lie is in the title they try to use!

  13. Auld Rock says:

    How about Scottish Labours renowned inability to count every since they introduced Jackie Baillie’s ‘Idiots Guide for Scottish Labour Members to SIMPLE ARITHMETIC’

  14. Cubby says:

    I am really liking this “counting with” series. Looking forward to more in the future.

  15. There’s a scene in the 1933 version of King Kong, where the giant ape has a bit of a fech with a dinosaur. After the dinosaur has been beaten to a pulp and had its jaw snapped, it falls to the ground to expire.

    A twitch of its tail and a few deep breaths before it is dead. Almost every utterance by Scottish Labour makes me think of that scene.

  16. Muscleguy says:

    SLAB must be getting so small that it has become quantum mechanical and the true number is thus in a superposition of all, small, states and will never be known until the party finally collapses the superposition by there being nobody left to turn out the lights.

    Is there anybody left in SLAB except for representative holders? I wouldn’t mind betting they have virtually no footsoldiers left. Remember in the latter stages of the last indyref that they were bussing paid activists up from England?

    I recall we encountered some here in Dundee beside their bus. We had gathered up the road in Albert Sq and had decided to defy our permissions and processed down the road behind a piper, marched around their bus and took their audience away by being more dynamic and interesting.

    They were all really clean cut, preppy boys, obviously NuLabour wannabees seeing enhanced career prospects in that part of the party. I can see a lot of them defecting to the Tories over Brexit and Corbyn now. They were so alike, in dress, in haircut. Blair would have been so proud of them.

  17. galamcennalath says:

    Donald Urquhart says

    scene in the 1933 version of King Kong

    No dinosaurs or Labour Party members were harmed in the making of this movie 😉

  18. Balaaargh says:

    Their math is fine. It’s just they’re including all their cats, dogs and tanks full of tropical fish.

  19. James Kydd-Corr says:

    Kelly and Baillie crunching the numbers?

  20. Ken Fitamean says:

    Do these figures include or exclude the 9 Aberdeen ‘labour’ cooncilors that were suspended almost 2 years ago? Asking for a friend!

  21. jfngw says:

    Asking Scottish Labour about its membership numbers is a bit like asking Trump who is the bestest President ever. The answer will leave you perplexed.

  22. Gary45% says:

    “Counting with Labour” normally means them looking at their webbed hands and feet, hence the problem counting past 4.
    Labour are a strange beast, one up the scale from tadpole, the other howling at the moon.
    Then again the Tories are worse, if that’s possible???

  23. cearc says:

    Ian B,

    I wonder how many Indy supporters could be rallied outside? We could surely outnumber those inside.

  24. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Some years ago Gerry Hassan got a hold of the membership subscription record from Labour office in Glasgow and estimated their paid-up full membership at that point to be around 6,000 in Scotland. He suggested that they may have been counting trade union and social club members as members in press releases.
    I suspect that is still the case.

    I would think they are no better off now and it is only media coverage that gives them any profile.I personally know of several previously well subscribed Labour Party branches that have ceased to exist.

    If Labour is dying in Scotland the LibDems have beaten them to it. I understand their Scottish membership is around 2000 and again only the media,particularly the BBC, invents them.

  25. Phil says:

    Where is Schrodinger’s Cat when we need Her / Him.

  26. Colin McCurrach says:

    Maybe, they’re producing a number to try to illustrate what they believe, as Rory Stewart did.

  27. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @cearc –


    Dunno how keen folk would be to hang around that gathering of losers, but I’m quite sure, if given enough notice, and a suitable venue, we could easily fill a much smaller space with twice as many people.


  28. Martin says:

    Ooh membership number fun! That can only mean it’s almost time for the leadership cobtest. I do so love a SLAB leadership fight. The ambitious candidates really rise to the middle.

  29. Phil says:

    Wasn’t Herr Hitler a SLAB member who had a ranting attitude problem? Well he should have been! Don’t mention th**&**

  30. mike cassidy says:

    Is it because its late and I should be in bed?

    Or is the labour abacus even influencing this snippet?

    Cos I’m not getting the link between ‘doubled’ in line 1

    And ‘decrease’ in line 2.

  31. Capella says:

    Is it time for James Kelly to take over the reigns at SLab? Not to boost membership but to entertain us all at FMQs. RL just isn’t funny.

  32. ronnie anderson says:

    It aw depends in who’s hauns the Abrucdabracus is in whit figures come oot

  33. Inverclyder says:

    Phil says:
    16 February, 2019 at 11:18 pm
    Where is Schrodinger’s Cat when we need Her / Him.

    British Labour don’t have a cat. They have James Kelly instead.

  34. Colin Alexander says:

    Quality ower quantity?

    I’ll let people make up their ain minds oan that yin.

  35. Josef Ó Luain says:

    Membership numbers as a virility symbol is one thing, but as anyone who’s ever been near a political Party knows, Branch activism is generally engaged in by a regular and often small nucleus in most constituencies. If Labour’s activist presence is any guide, then Labour’s actual membership numbers in Scotland must be minuscule.

  36. Effijy says:

    Dippy Dug their former leader won her leadership contest
    Overwhelmingly with 7,000 votes not so long ago.

    She got the vast majority of votes so they didn’t have much
    More than 10,000 votes in total from a country of 5.5 million.

    There is a similar number of Donkeys living in Scotland,
    Perhaps more accurate to say Labour’s North Accounting Unit
    Has doubled the number of Asses in our country.

    Transparency Labour needs to learn isn’t the voters seeing right through them!

  37. Dr Jim says:

    What does the FM get up to on these so called *jollies* around the world as the Yoons like to call them

    Well have a wee look at Nicola Sturgeon Al Gore utube 11/02/2019 and see what the world thinks of Scotland and Nicola Sturgeon

    Theresa who now?

  38. Effijy says:

    Quite genuinely, I saw Kelly leafleting my street with a group of
    5 people 2 of which I perceived to be special needs youths?

    It shows the strength and depth of North Unit
    Activists supporting one of their big hitters.

  39. David Younger says:

    Just before the 2014 referendum, I made enquiries through a friend in London.It appeared at that time that Labour Party membership figures were not kept separately for Scotland. We did, however establish figures by postcode and came up with 11394. A subsequent article in the Guardian about the so-called “Corbyn effect” revealed that, while Labour membership had increased dramatically in England and Wales, it had only increased by 4000 in Scotland. If these figures are true, then total membership today is only a little over 10000.

  40. Roger Mexico says:

    I’m rather surprised that Stu has missed the Herald piece from a couple of weeks ago about a leak that not only gave the total membership figure as at January (21,162), but gave a breakdown for each Holyrood constituency:

    and doesn’t just show the membership by constituency now and compared to a year ago but for a number of other dates since 2012 as well. What is more a few days later there was a second leak to the Mirror a few days later which confirmed the overall figures:

    Of course what we’re really seeing here is the wimpering of the Blairite aparatiniks that the UK membership has gone up nearly two and half times since Corbyn took over and that means that the aparatniks should immediately be given ‘their’ Party back because … er … they have loads of mates in the media. All Parties tend to fall a bit in membership a year after a general election and most of the recent cries of doom about the drop in membership will be because of that.

    But there’s something a bit different about Scotland. SLab never benefited as much from the Corbyn surge as elsewhere or their already below-average membership numbers would have risen to over 30,000 and you can see they never did. I suspect what happened was the SNP nabbed a lot of their likely recruits in 2014. There’s something else though a separate surge.

    The significant shift is actually between Aug 2016 and Jan 2018, which included the run-up to the Scottish Labour Leadership election. Overall there was an increase of 3432 about 15%, as you might expect with an election between those dates. However most constituencies only showed very modest gains: many are static or even drop – usually where Labour had little chance of winning and presumably put in little effort.

    But a handful of seats showed massive gains: Glasgow Southside, Cathcart, Pollack and Kelvin; Eastwood, Edinburgh Eastern and Dundee East. Some of these more than doubled in membership over the period including Southside which had by far the biggest membership in Scotland.

    It’s these very same constituencies that now record the biggest drops in numbers, which suggests that most of those now lost had only signed up (or been signed up) to vote for a particular candidate. And if you look at the 2011 Census those constitiuencies above are the seven where the greatest number of people identified (at least in part) as Pakistani[1], with Southside being by far the largest. So the big jump in membership looks like it was all about supporting Sarwar jnr and with that failed it will vanish like it came (though surely we must be due another Slab Leadership election by now?).

    So the total membership of 21,000 seems about right for the moment, but it looks as if there is still a bit of the Sarwar packing still to come apart – maybe another 1000 plus. And apart from that they also may be losing members at a greater rate than in England once you allow for the distortion of the leadership contest. So as usual not the micro-levels of membership that some believe, but still quite spectacularly unimpressive compared to the SNP or even their English or Welsh colleagues.

    [1] Although everyone thinks of Eastwood as the area with the biggest Jewish population (and it is by far) there were actually more people there who identified as Muslim than Jewish.

  41. yesindyref2 says:

    @Roger Mexico
    I remember seeing that article in the Herald but not being really interested in party politics probably just read the first paragraph.

    It’s certainly a brutal and deep analysis of Labour in Scotland.

  42. S.Perspective says:

    Waoh, steady on. That’s not fair on Labour. If 38% is almost half, then take 21,000 x 0,38 you get 7,980. Now, if 5 is half of 7, then if you double 5, then you get 7. Therefore, if you calculate 7,980 / 5 x 7, then you get 11,172. Which is where they were 2014 in hind sight. So you see, Stu, Labour’s maths are rock solid.

    It’s what’s known as a political calculation.

  43. Robert Peffers says:

    @jezza says: 16 February, 2019 at 9:52 pm:

    ” … And just to confuse it even more, are Labour Party memberships not linked to Union memberships as well???!

    Indeed so jezza. They are also linked to Co-op members and what is described as, “Social Club”, (a.k.a. Working Men’s Club) members.

    In smaller villages and towns this could be the only place to socialise and the members are certainly not all labour party supporters.

  44. manandboy says:

    Richard Leonard, London Labour’s Scottish Branch Manager, believes in ‘ethical politics’, in doing what’s right and avoiding what’s wrong. Except that by knowingly lying all the time about Scotland, and about the SNP, Richard Leonard fails completely to practice what he preaches. But then, lying comes easy when you believe in the British Establishment, with its dependence on The Union.

    So it has always been that London Labour in Scotland have always pretended to be Scottish. But they are an English Party, with a British Nationalist membership, and are Unionist to the core. Their current leader is an Englishman, born in Yorkshire.

    “I’ve never been on the far-left in politics,” he says. “My politics are a common-sense politics around a mixed economy, about trying to provide jobs for people, about trying to get a decent level of public services for people, and it’s just about having, I suppose, a sense of an ethical socialism that’s around what kind of society is it that we’re presiding over. Some of the things that we’re presiding over now are just not right, whether it’s increasing child poverty, the growing inequality gap or just a sense of what’s right and what’s wrong, and sometimes in politics, it really is about that and not about what’s left and right, it’s about right and wrong.”

    Labour’s greatest achievement is to make the UK electorate believe that Labour are the opposite of the Tories, when in fact they are a double-act.

    One plus one = one.

  45. Robert Peffers says:

    @mike cassidy says:16 February, 2019 at 11:41 pm:

    ” … Cos I’m not getting the link between ‘doubled’ in line 1
    And ‘decrease’ in line 2.”

    Neither is anyone else, Mike.

  46. Giving Goose says:

    Wait a minute – these people are members of the Tory Party.
    Tory, Labour, Lib Dems – all the same colonial party.

  47. starlaw says:

    Labour and the Unions held a protest march in Dundee yesterday about the SNP budget’ STV gave their numbers as 100 I doubt if there was a bus full. Every one interviewed was over sixty and a lot more.

  48. Grendel1970 says:

    On Wednesday 27th February the next edition of the new BBC Scotland show #debatenight will be recorded in #Edinburgh.
    Applicants are now being sought.
    Contact 01299 829 299/07768 938 839 or
    Get your applications in.
    Be there. Be vocal. Wear Red

  49. frogesque says:

    Facebook closed group YES stones has over 2,000 members.

    The Unionist of any colour would give their eye teeth ( or should that be AYE teeth) for that kind of talent and dedication.

    Unionist have nothing other than blind panic.

  50. Breeks says:

    James Kelly is Scottish Labour’s Cabinet Secretary for Finance.

    I’m not a member of any political party, but even supposing I was just one of seventeen people drawing lots to determine who got the keys to the minibus about to drive us all home, I really wouldn’t be comfortable with James Kelly’s name appearing on that shortlist.

    I don’t care if Labour is picking it’s team from 20k members, 5k members, or just 17 folks in a car park. They are depressing, hopeless, ignorant, FOI shit stirring chancers with a political profile and faux relevance routinely enhanced by the thoroughly rotten and corrupt BBC.

    It’s actually quite neat how the one now constantly reminds me how false, unreliable and dysfunctional is the other. It’s just bizarre. I’m sure there must be a better word or expression for such a bleak scenario, but it’s just not coming to me.

  51. jezza says:

    Trump supporter goes for a BBC cameraman.

    Trump is already in the bad books with the Beeb after he accused them of being the peddlers of Fake News.

    That is why the BBC attack Trump at every opportunity.

  52. Hamish100 says:

    I hear No Surrender Clegg of the Record back on as a paper reviewer on BBC. You would almost think it was intentional!!

    A slip in his persona when discussing the labour party he said “We” -quickly corrected at 923am

  53. Tinto Chiel says:

    Sadly, it doesn’t matter how few of these spivs and hypocrites there are, because BLiS______d is kept going by the iron lung of our wonderful media.

    Otherwise, in a country whose media reflected the true nature of its politics, they’d be chaff in the wind.

    And that’s our problem.

  54. Nana says:

    Fears over Westminster Brexit bid to change laws on medication

    It will be a horror!
    As the BBC’s new Scottish channel launches, many are asking…just what the hell is it?

  55. Nana says:

    Blog from last year on a no deal brexit

    This could be us

    Wanting to forge new trading relationships after Brexit and securing them are two very different things

    She really means “in the Tory party interest”

    Theresa May has written to her “colleagues” ie all Tory MPs begging them to put “sacrifice” their own personal preferences in the national interest:

  56. Nana says:

    UK’s Saudi weapons sales unlawful, Lords committee finds
    Report finds UK arms ‘highly likely to be cause of significant civilian casualties in Yemen’

    Will not archive

    Grayling attacked over ‘disastrous’ part-privatisation of probation service
    Private provider Working Links went bust just as it was found playing down offender risk

  57. Clootie says:

    Always remember that the values that led to the creation of the Labour Party are still critically important it is just that they can no longer be found in the Labour Party.

    In a sense we have lost nothing as regards the values we hold precious. It is simply that the old shell has finally crumbled down to reveal an empty caste.

    The words of Jimmy Reid still sum it up best ” I never left Labour, they left me”

    Do not mourn the demise of the Labour Branch Office because they betrayed us. They were seduced by Westminster and self importance. They sit in the Lords as their reward for loyalty to greed and the union. The LibDems also have over a 100 seats in the Lords. It is the policy Rome developed for its Empire – those who kept their own people in order were rewarded with Citizenship of Rome.

    The British Empire is another empty shell about to collapse.

  58. Hamish100 says:

    With at least 1/2 of the population of Scotland suspicious if not downright angry with the partiality of the State broadcaster. The state broadcaster is now even more wrongfooted with their new Scotland channel after their bbc QT bias.
    It does not look good for them.

  59. Albaman says:

    I see Wullie Rennie is at it again, this time in Sunday’s Scotsman,no I’m not interested even to read said article.
    I strikes that it is he, Wullie, who should seek phycological help !!, either that or give up his seat in Scotland and seek one south of the border.

  60. ScotsRenewables says:

    My partner just used the term ‘so-called UK government’

    Spot on.

  61. galamcennalath says:

    Nana says

    Come on Scotland, let’s leave them to it

    Interesting story proposing the ERG would back May’s ‘deal’ if she agrees to stand down after Brexit. Boris Johnson would then become PM. If there are two candidates then the vote goes to the whole Tory membership. They would probably choose Johnson. So even though the ERG are a minority among MPs, they could still grab power.

    Something else adds credence to this idea. May’s ‘deal’ is for a blind Brexit – the future trade deal could be anything. An ERG/Johnson led Tory government would obvious go for a hard Canada style trade deal.

    Northern Ireland / DUP? The above plan would probably entail ignoring them and allowing NI to stay in customs union, I guess.

  62. Clootie says:

    Cheer up – only a 1000 hours to Brexit!
    How bad could it be!
    However Willie Rennie, Ruth Davidson and the Labour branch one will defend the union till the very end. I wonder if and when people will finally realise that Scotland will not be saved by staying on the deck of a sinking ship.

  63. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    100% Spot on @Tinto Chiel says at 9:31 am

    “.. in a country whose media reflected the true nature of its politics, they’d be chaff in the wind. And that’s our problem.”

    I have an idea (maybe Colin Dunn or Proud CyberNat can do the artwork)

    An “I Want You to pay to be lied to” poster ala Kitchener using Billy Mitchells picture and the BBC Scotland Logo.

    The BBCQT charade should be capitalised on

  64. Nana says:

    At noon

    On the Full Scottish this week, presenter by Anne McLaughlin is joined by guests, Professor Kirstein Rummery and Kurt Bassuener, Senior Associate of the Democratization Policy Council

    That’s all for today

  65. galamcennalath says:

    The other day we had Rees Mogg excusing concentration camps. Here’s another wee reminder of what the British Empire, and it’s heros, really were. As they say, victors get to write the history … and ‘British’ history as it has been written hides a multitude of sins.

  66. Daisy Walker says:

    O/T Re Parking in Perth… sort of.

    Has anyone else heard about :

    a traditional Victorian, stone built house with 13 (THIRTEEN) bedrooms, in prime location of Dundee Road, Perth, set in its own extensive gardens (lots of parking potential), with beautiful views over the River Tay.

    Perth and Kinross Council are looking to sell this property (called Rio) for a bargain price of £350,000.

    It is situated in the part of Perth known as Kinnoull and normally – properties in this location, and of this size and type – sell for around the £1,000,000 mark.

    Apparently the council needs the money – no wonder.

  67. Marcia says:


    I cam across one of the Yes stones on a walk near Tayport last week. Very well done too.

  68. HandandShrimp says:

    Willie, don’t talk about independence…well I just have, obviously, but I think I got away with it, Rennie.

    I sometimes think Nicola made Willie out of some Lego bits as a cunning ploy to ensure the concept of Indyref 2 stays in the public consciousness as an imminent possibility.

    This is good.

  69. Effijy says:

    Sky news- NHS England have £500 Million offer rejected by US Drug manufacturer for access to a radical new Cystic Fibrosis drug.

    Goes on to say that this could help 10,000 UK sufferers.
    Then they say the drug is not currently available in England, N.Ireland or Wales???

    Is Scotland not worth mentioning at all or is a positive Scottish story that it is available here?

    Why hasn’t a bulk UK offer been made?
    Why hasn’t an EU Wide bulk access deal been brokered?

    In the US some 97 of their 100 Senators are sponsored by US Drug manufacturers. Over $2.5 Billion per year spent on Lobbying.

    It is believed that many have operated outside of current legislation but something seems to be stopping the government from prosecuting them?

    Do you have any ideas?

    If Scotland is to remain an English Tory colony you can look forward to this additional form of corruption on your door step
    when Trump forces a TTIP Trade Deal.

    No more affordable drugs or treatments for Scotland’s workers!

    Maybe Donald can help build a wall to keep Scotland’s poor away from England’s filthy rich and the 3 party Unionist profiteers.

    Read that UK’s richest man James Ratcliffe, worth £21 Billion at age 66 is to relocate to Monaco and save up to £4 Billion in Tax.

    Now why would the SNP Government want to stop the 56 year run that has seen the gap between the rich and the average worker
    continue to extend?

    The poor chap I’m sure get lots of Freebees with his Knighthood and if he spent £1 Million every day he could skint before his
    130th Birthday?

    Puts into perspective the Labour supporter I know going made about a documentary that showed a Universal Discredit claimant with obvious learning needs and few teeth fighting for cash to eat and yet has the nerve to have a dog and a tattoo.

    That Ratcliffe guy didn’t have either.
    Maybe needs some more cash and justified the move to Monaco?

  70. Robert Peffers says:


    I had to visit A&E Yesterday as I needed medical attention and couldn’t contact the out of hours service. I had a wait, but a relatively short one. Now we are talking a busy Saturday afternoon in the full Winter sports season. There were quite a few walking/hobbling wounded of all ages.

    The staff were really wonderful, efficient, cheerful and good humoured. I do not think I could cope with their job without being really demoralised by the SMSM and broadcasters.

  71. McBoxheid says:

    I reckon as their accounting unit is so unstable and toxic, they have a halflife. As their numbers keeps halfing, they cling to the hope that they will never reach zero. Similarly, their calculator also reckons in halflifes. It does go a long way to explain some of their calculations….

  72. jezza says:

    Re, that old drunken racist Churchill.

    Andrew Neil told us the other day Churchill defeated Hitler and the Nazis.

    IMO it was the Americans, Russians and a stretch of water called the English Channel that saved “England” from being overrun by Germans.

    It definitely wasn’t the little Englander racist Churchill.

  73. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    This bears highlighting.

    It’s from Peter A. Bell’s blog at:-

    He reinforces what regular Wingers know from Rev Stu’s teachings over the years but which newer readers may not be aware of. He types,

    “People should know by now that the headline does not provide an indication of what the story below it is about. The headline tells you what the author and/or the publication want you to think the story is about.

    The headline is the first thrust in the process of manipulating the reader’s perception of the story.
    It plants the seed of deception which will then be fed by the standfirst and watered by the next few paragraphs.

    The default assumption when looking at any political story in the British media is that the headline is a lie.”

  74. mike cassidy says:

    Just noticed this.

    Pass on by if its old news.

    I don’t think the police spokesperson even realises how chilling this is.

    As part of a sharing agreement, information about protestors has been passed to DWP but only in the event where concerns have been raised.

    During the course of our duties, whether this is at protests or not, if any concerns are identified, we are duty-bound to pass these onto the relevant partner agencies in any policing operation.

    What concerns?

    Raised by who?

    When did the DWP become a partner agency with any police force?

    And, more importantly, is this ‘partner agency’ policy happening in Scotland?

  75. Hamish100 says:

    So Mundell is threatening to resign again! well maybe’s aye and maybe’s naw.

    Is his threats to resign a world record? Even his tory pals don’t care. A complete non-entity.

  76. Packhorse Pete says:

    Jezza 12.03

    “Andrew Neil told us the other day Churchill defeated Hitler and the Nazis.”

    As you say Jezza, nonsense. We didn’t “win the war”- we were on the winning side. An entirely different proposition.

  77. Hamish100 says:

    Based on all likelihood May will tell Labour, SNP, Lib dems and all to vote for “her” deal (previously defeated in the House of Commons) or there will be a No Deal Brexit.Brexit or Brexit in other words. With all the issues surrounding jobs, free movement of people and goods.

    Personally that is not the end.

    We have a choice either way. After the Vote we should declare we will have a Vote on Scottish Independence or to choose Brexit.

    With Spains’ rigged court cases on Catalonia I am inclined to a Norweigian Model but hey I will go with the majority.

  78. Dr Jim says:

    Values you say, British values you say, well those values would be based on fear and anger and punishment and if you don’t adhere to them giving those who create the *values* the authority to call you bad names in order to alienate you from their particular club so that the rest must then fear you and be angry about it

    English Nationalism British Nationalism the same thing but they don’t know how to express it so they keep using the tried and tested success story of refer to rule one, and we’re back to the fear and anger again

    The English don’t quite know who they are but in order to find out they’ll continue to oppress anyone else along the way in the hope that more means they’re right, justified, job done

  79. Iain mhor says:

    @mike cassidy 12:08pm

    The DWP has been a “partner” of the polis for decades. If you’ve ever been unlucky enough to be through a traffic polis “checkpoint” all the usual suspects are there. Polis, DWP, VOSA and in the past I’ve known the CSA & HMRC.
    As an aside, the last one I had the misfortune to be in, they were screwing everyone on their vehicle insurance. Bearing in mind that most insurance only covers going to and from a single place of work/business, they were handing out “uninsured” fines for any “business journey” ie: Heading to the bank to do the payroll on the way home” and many other innocuous reasons. That was a notorious one and caused a fair stooshie at the time.

  80. Jack Murphy says:

    Someone further up the page mentioned David Mundell MP,
    the Westminster Government’s Secretary of State for Scotland.

    I’m reminded of this piece from The National newspaper last month:

    ” THE UK Government’s contempt for Scotland’s elected representatives is no great secret, but somehow, they still find new ways to shock.

    This time, it’s courtesy of an extremely disrespectful David Mundell.

    SNP MP Dr Philippa Whitford has a degree in medicine from Glasgow University, years of experience as a breast surgeon, helped to design accreditation standards in Scotland and worked across the world……… ”

    Includes a VIDEO clip of David M in the House of Commons:

  81. HandandShrimp says:

    I see on Stu’s Twitter that the new Scottish channel audience on a show of hands were 10 to 1 Scottish and British as opposed to Scottish not British. Yet we know that the latter edges the former in attitude surveys and the census. Looks like the same audience manipulators that they employ for QT are at work again. The BBC is worse than untrustworthy. It is corrupt.

  82. Ron says:

    I actually tried to join Labour to support the Momentum group but they took my money and then cancelled my membership. I understand that they did this with many people. Are they counting the people who joined like me who they then kicked out?

  83. Ian Foulds says:


    I presume we have all signed this?

    Thank you.

  84. galamcennalath says:

    jezza says:

    IMO it was the Americans, Russians and a stretch of water called the English Channel that saved “England” from being overrun by Germans.

    Indeed. The figures for WW2 show a striking picture of reality and who actually suffered the most military deaths

    Russia 9-11million
    Germany 5million
    China 3-4million
    Japan 2million
    Yugoslavia 400k
    US 400k
    UK 400k
    Italy 300k

    Yes, tactics were different with each nation, but the sacrifices give a clear view of where the fiercest fighting took place.

    And that’s before we look at civilian casualties!

  85. Gfaetheblock says:

    Odd things going on with the Yesbar. Twitter reports that the company has been wound up just a few months after their last crowdfunded, and their Facebook just stated that they are going through a change in management.

  86. Arbroath1320 says:

    Looks to me like Labour’s wee branch office use of the BBC calculator is going into overdrive here. 😀

  87. HandandShrimp says:


    Facebook page says they are aiming to reopen after the plumbing works within a week or so. New manager is called Sharon Tonner…same owners.

    Not sure why that info should have some of the more emotionally challenged SiU types all of a Twitter on Twitter.

  88. Gfaetheblock says:

    Hand and shrimp

    I can’t see that on their Facebook page. They appear to have deleted posts from earlier today

  89. HandandShrimp says:

    Weird, I can see it. Says it was posted 48 minutes ago.

  90. Gfaetheblock says:

    I can see it now thanks

  91. Petra says:

    Thanks for the links Nana. It’s taken me so long to get through them that I now see that we’ve moved on again, lol.

    Taking into account that Scotlandshire is one of 9 countries out of around 200 on the planet housing Nuclear weapons isn’t it high time that the BBC / STV informed the Scots of what’s actually going on in their own country and the risks that they face. They could start by showing the Scots these two videos.

    @ Nana at 9:40am …….. ”Are you all depressed enough yet? Don’t read on if the answer is Yes!”


    I see that Jacob Rees-Mogg is a fervent member of the Westminster Rewrite UK History Club, currently chaired by Treeza May. He states that the Boer War led to Boer women and children being put into concentration camps for their own protection, to be fed, etc, and manages to throw in a link between the mortality rate in Glasgow, at that time, to the rate in the camps. Why Glasgow, one wonders?

    No mention that the Brits were actually fighting to continue to rob them of their resources, such as gold and diamonds, as the Boers were fighting for their Independence (watch your back Scots) and that most of the camp fatalities related to being starved to death plus related illnesses. He went on to say, ”where would they live (if not in the camps)”, but omits to mention that a year into the war when Kitchener took over he ordered the burning of the Boer farmsteads, slaughtering of their livestock, the poisoning of their wells and the salting of their fields. In other words they made sure that the Boers had nowhere to live, food to eat and so on.

    ‘BBC Question Time 14/02/2019 Aylesbury’ – 46 mins in.

    The Boers, due to Kitchener’s scorched earth policy and relocation, also lost family heirlooms and their family records, which led to the erasing of their culture and history. Sounds familiar.

    The official death toll figure relating to women and children in the camps was around 27,000 and then of course they had camps for ”blacks” where that death rate was reckoned to be around 20,000. Forty seven thousand people (at LEAST) died in these camps (around 22,000 babies and children) of a prisoner population of 200,000, compared to 6000 Boer War combatants. Additionally around 26,000 POWs were sent overseas.

    And as for his claim that the death rate in the concentration camps compared with that of Glasgow during the same time period …. well that’s a pack of lies too. And from a man who may be the next Prime Minister.

    Glasgow, in 1901, had a population of 762,000 and, according to the National Records of Scotland, 16,190 people died with death rates dropping to 15,530 in 1902. That figure equates to the camp deaths being 10 times the mortality rate in Glasgow.

    Let’s rid ourselves of Westminster the Mother of all Pa … thological liars.

  92. Dan says:

    Hi Petra,
    Hopefully this will catch your eye at the end of this thread.
    A good while back you used to post a list of percentage statistics showing Scotland’s rich and diverse resources within the UK context.
    IIRC there was also a second page that highlighted how poorly performing the UK was in many areas when compared to other EU states.
    That information was very useful and wonder if that list has been kept up to date with additions such as gin production, and I guess the energy figures may also need updating due to the various new windfarms that have come online since the figures were originally collated years ago.
    It would be great to have a revised and accurate version to hand.
    Might be a project a few folk could be involved with to spread the workload?
    Wonder if it could be hosted somewhere as a live online document with hotlinks to data sources, and versions to be handed out that had a link to the online version to back up info for any doubters.
    There may also be a lot of new readers of Wings who have not previously seen it.

    The local YES groups I am involved in are gearing up with as much useful campaigning material as we can get our hands on. Plus, I have previous No voters asking me for links and further information so they can share and enlighten their families, workmates and acquaintances.
    We’ve got IndyPacks and I’ve also been in touch with the legend that is @zarkwan to get some A4 print files created of his excellent per capita graphics.

    He duly obliged and over the weekend we picked up a box from the printers with hundreds ready to be distributed.

  93. Petra says:

    Hi Dan I’ve just noticed your post. I’ve lost loads of data through one thing and another, not least of all due to my computer being hacked. I’m having to go out right now but will carry out a search when I get home tonight.

    Looks as though you’re working your butt off for the cause, Dan. Great stuff.

  94. Hand and shrimp

    Last week, the BBC announced the new frontline for the upcoming BBC Scotland political debate programme and guess what… the new producer..’ has been working on QT since the Independence referendum of 2014 and has been producing QT for the last two years.’

    ( Interesting that they describe his start date as ‘since the independence referendum of 2014’ why nit just state that ‘ he has been working on QT since 2014… etc’

    No surprises there then.

    This new channel is going to be WM propaganda on stilts.Bringing in the bigger guns now.

  95. Petra says:

    Dan really sorry but I can’t find the data now. Looks as though I’ve lost it altogether. Lost thousands of hours of archived data, in fact. I contacted a few friends but they don’t have it either. Try asking on the latest thread. I noticed someone post some of the data on here not so long ago. Nana, for one, may have it. Good luck with that.

  96. Dan says:

    Petra, I do have it saved in text form but as this site strives for accuracy and it’s well over a few years old now, I don’t want to post it again until it has had a check over to ensure it’s as accurate and complete as possible.
    I thought you may have had links from when it was created but from what you say it sounds like they may have been lost now.
    Maybe best head over to off topic and a few can take a look at it there.
    I’m good with spanners but I definitely have my limits with IT stuff!

    Thanks for the compliment on working hard for the cause. I just try to do the best I can as we all have different attributes to offer.
    Fortunately we have some absolute stars locally in the YES movement who are committing an extraordinary amount of voluntary time and skills in progressing the cause. I just assist them in a general dog’s body capacity.

    As a long time lurker and recent poster I’ll also take this opportunity to offer a huge THANK YOU to Wings and all the many BTL contributors who over the years have posted so much useful information. Can’t even begin to list names as I’ll inevitably miss some out.

    If there are any other lurkers out there reading this. Come on in and get involved. With all that is going on, Scotland needs all hands on deck to ensure we have a chance at navigating through this bourach of a situation we currently find ourselves in.

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