A failure of comprehension
Scottish schoolchildren start their exams today. We wish them good luck, because if any of them have taken their lead in language skills from the nation’s media they’re going to be in a lot of trouble.
For 10% of extra course credit, let’s find out why.
This is what Nicola Sturgeon actually said about the election yesterday, as quoted by almost every source:
“The issue at the heart of this election is — whether you support independence or oppose independence — surely that decision should be taken by the Scottish people and the Scottish Parliament, and not by a Tory government at Westminster.”
Now, unless you’re bottom of the remedial English class there’s only one sane way to interpret those words. They’re not ambiguous or equivocal. They clearly and directly state that PEOPLE’S POSITION ON INDEPENDENCE IS IRRELEVANT TO THE POINT SHE’S MAKING, namely that the issue is which of Scotland’s two conflicting governments should make important decisions.
She says it with spectacularly explicit, unmistakeable clarity: “whether you support independence or oppose independence”. It couldn’t be any plainer – independence isn’t the topic of discussion, the hierarchy of parliaments is.
“Independence is at [the] heart of [the] election campaign”, then, is just about the wrongest possible summary of her comments that anyone could produce. It’s like taking the words “I am not a banana” and headlining your story “I AM DEFINITELY A BANANA, SAYS STURGEON”. It’s that level of wrong. It’s very nearly impossible on a technical level to exaggerate how empirically, unarguably wrong it is.
So by both Occam’s and Hanlon’s Razors (we’re throwing these top study references in for free, exam kids!), the simplest explanation is that Daniel Sanderson, the Times’ reporter, is an illiterate idiot. And that would be fine (and very believable on his track record), except that every other journalist in Scotland has somehow come up with the exact same monumentally cretinous misrepresentation.
(It’s passingly noteworthy that most of them also frame it as an “admission”, implying guilt and either indirectly or directly accusing her of lying previously.)
The Scottish Sun’s version, mindbogglingly, actually manages to go one step further by printing the literal exact opposite of what Sturgeon said as its headline, even though its own story has the accurate quote. But there was worse.
Because the Times piece backed up its misleading headline with a doctored version of the quote which completely reversed its meaning.
Not only does altering the punctuation to break one sentence into two make that quote false, it also makes it nonsense. Independence itself, despite what Adam Tomkins might want, is NOT a decision for the Scottish Parliament, it’s one for the electorate to make in a democratic referendum.
Now we could, of course, generously put that down to an honest misunderstanding, a genuine accidental mishearing of Sturgeon’s words that led to them being transcribed wrongly and therefore misreported in the story. People are human, sometimes they’re not listening properly (or they hear what they want to hear, which isn’t the same thing as deliberate malicious misrepresentation).
But if that’s the case then it’s quite a coincidence that every journalist in the Scottish press managed to come to the exact same misunderstanding even when they heard and quoted the First Minister correctly.
Or maybe it’s not a coincidence at all. Make up your own minds.
Malicious, malevolent, lying bastards.
OK so the London media plus their Northern ‘lap-dogs’ tell us that this is about Independence, well hell mend them if that’s how they want to play it then if we get 30+ seats come June then we inform Westminster that we are leaving – end of, no ifs no buts but definitely.
Auld Rock
You missed the BBC page from this story, they are using the same quote and also strangely misinterpreting it also. It’s the unionist agenda to make the GE about independence, the BBC has fallen into line.
No. There is no mistake. That’s pretty much entirely the opposite of what the first minister said.
So… liars or collective idiocy.
You’d be forgiven for saying ‘BOTH’.
Its all great game to Murdoch’s goons in Scotland, except ofcourse it’s not. They’re going to destroy Scottish democracy, they hope.
Kenny Farquharson?Verified account @KennyFarq Apr 30
Replying to @KennyFarq
/ However, SNP supporters will no doubt reject these findings, coz unionist MSM Tory ("Quizmaster" - Ed) lies.
George Galloway as usual is butting into scottish politics, its amazing the guy does not even have a vote here, one good thing Tony Blair did was to get that bawbag out of scotland, good old tony lol
I’ve been on at my No voting wife over this, she told me that Salmond and Sturgeon are at odds because they both said the election was about independence then went back on it.
She was of course wrong, but told me I was when I looked it up.
Unionists live in an alternate reality, just as most Brexiters do. Both the EU and Yes people are trying to wake them up to reality before its too late but the powers that be don’t want people woken up, they want them supine and suspicious of whatever thing the establishment doesn’t want.
It relates to Corbyn and his press coverage as well.
The UK is broken, its people mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed bullshit. Your reality filter must get a battering reading all this guff Rev.
Your splitting hairs here Rev. The principle clause in NS’s statement is “The issue at the heart of this election is — whether you support independence or oppose independence”. It seems pretty clear to me. I cannot see what the issue is with the veracity of all the newspaper headlines.
“You missed the BBC page from this story”
No, it’s the third pic down after the top one. But interestingly the BBC and Scotsman have subsequently changed their headlines.
https://www.newssniffer.co.uk/articles/1371995/diff/6/7
When I read this in the Herald I doubted the veracity of it as it seemed unlikely Nicola Sturgeon would say this, I wanted to see the exact quote. How correct I was for waiting and good on this site for exposing these lies.
It’s almost as if the ‘Scottish’ MSM is merely an offshoot in name only of a British nationalist propaganda machine run by corporate fascists and staffed by unprincipled ventriloquist’s dummies.
@Rev Campbell
Oops sorry, I was looking for the BBC logo. I will chastise myself.
It is not that long ago that many journalists were writing and broadcasting about how incredible it was that Donald Trump and his team were branding stories as “fake news” or “alternative facts”, and wondered why so many people were willing to believe that this was indeed the case.
As long as there are supposedly serious journalists and news outlets that carry on like this, Mr Trump – and many worse than him – will be able to get away with calling things out as fake (whether true or not) and people will believe them.
How often do the press and journalists like to tell us the importance of their ability to scrutinise and question those in power as a means of safeguarding freedom and democracy. This kind of behaviour only serves to benefit those who may wish to undermine that same freedom and democracy. If they are not party to such conspiracies, then I can only assume that they are extremely stupid.
Thank you Rev. for yet again exposing this abuse of position in society that our “free press” appears so adept at these days.
I like your thinking Auld Rock.
Well if the Unionists press wants it to be about Independence ok fine we will have mahems ” now is not the time ” vote early let’s hope that they let her know. Well it’s their press not ours .
jfngw
2 May, 2017 at 12:17 pm
For my benefit, please explain what the difference is between NS’s statement and the newspaper headlines?
“The issue at the heart of this election is — whether you support independence or oppose independence…..”
“Sturgeon admits independence is at the heart of the general election”.
@Richard MacKinnon
Look at it this way then. The newspapers could equally have said Nicola said this election was about the union.
She didn’t, nor did she say it was about independence.
The really sad thing about the fact that the UK unionist media can make up whatever lies they want for their propaganda agenda, is that even though the majority of well informed political people will know straight away this is lies, there will be many who do not.
The sooner Scotland breaks free from this UK sewer type journalism, the better.
OMFG Mackinnon. That’s a staggering admission of deliberately supporting the complete fabrication of what Nicola said. You sir, have just revealed you are in fact an idiot.
Boycott all britnat media. Don’t pay the bbc tax. They are all britnat liars. Leave it to experts like the Rev to expose the britnat scum.
The adding or removal of the hyphens changes the entire meaning. Rewritten to avoid their use would give,
Whether you support independence or oppose independence, the issue at the heart of this election is surely that that decision should be taken by the Scottish people and the Scottish Parliament, and not by a Tory government at Westminster.”
So it’s actually true that independence is at the heart of the election. However the point being made is that it’s up to the people of Scotland to decide rather than a Westminster governments veto.
Regardless of how the right to self determination is exercised and how often it simply can not be accepted by anyone that Westminster can attach strings to it or prevent it being used.
If the “unionist” parties are so sure of themselves then the challenge remains. Put it in their manifestos. State boldly that should they win a majority of the seats in Scotland then they will remove the ability of Holyrood to even hold a referendum never mind implement the result.
The small problem they have is that in order to do so they’d really have to find some way of either having a separate manifesto for their candidates in Scotland or split of their parties in Scotland to allow that to happen. In the later case they might have problems when it comes to transferring funds from one party to another without falling foul of electoral law.
Richard MacKinnon’s brain is also in parentheses.
I neffer knew Nicola and the SNP stood for Independence, I’ll need to start reading the English press.
Comprehension and interpretation as seen through eyes of the Yoonitariat may be another explanation.
The world through Yoon tinted specs, as it were.
Problem for the colonial media is that the bollox they knowingly print and broadcast will have little impact on 45% of the electorate (Yessers) voting in GE17 and that is all we need in a FPTP system. They are desperately trying to ‘hold the line’ with their propaganda (and other assorted means) when what they really need to do is scrap the FPTP voting system for UK GEs.
And every time another of their lies is exposed, exposing them as the malevolent, sleekit, duplicitous, deceitful feckers we all know them to be, another NO voter switches to YES.
With their mince the colonial media are doing much of the heavy lifting for us. Long may they continue to be idiots.
It is the Tories and the establishment media who have attempted to put Independence at the centre of the GE. Ably assisted by the LibDem Tories and the ScoLab Tories. All on the instructions of a Deluded Tyrant who spouts forth empty rhetoric.
@Richard MacKinnon – you can twist any meaning from a “quote”, if you choose to leave out some of the words!
Consider, for example “I am in favour of hanging being abolished” could be part-quoted as “I am in favour of hanging”.
That’s what you are doing.
The issue at the heart of GE17 is one of ‘sovereignty’ (as opposed to independence). When a majority of the people of Scotland’s elected representatives in the Scottish Parliament secure a majority to act on behalf of the people of Scotland, why is it (according to unionists and their compliant lapdog colonial media) perfectly acceptable for WM to block the will of a majority in Scotland?
The sovereignty of the Scottish people and its Parliament is what is at the heart of Sturgeon’s statement. IMO.
If the MSM told me it was daytime, I would take my torch with me if I went outside as I know it would be dark.
I did wonder at the figure of 1 in 5 scottish weans being illiterate leaving primary as being any way close to true. Fear not, there’s a job in headline writing available if their comprehension skills don’t pick up.
I’ve said before it’s not always easy to separate cock up and conspiracy. Also, when plagiarism is rife, that muddies the waters further.
To digress slightly, I remember at school the easiest way for a teacher to know that people had been copying other’s homework was that they copied the same mistakes. Several people with the same mistake could be no coincidence!
The same applies to news reporting. However that proves at least cock up and plagiarism.
Is this conspiracy? Well, over the last few years there has been just a little too much plagiarism of dubious content to be dismissed as crap journalism! Conspiracy to spread fake news is in among it all, I am certain.
The actual issue may be, who is orchestrating any conspiracy to undermine democracy?
It is clearer by the day that the WM plan is that, if the Tories gain a couple of seats then they will claim that as a rejection of Independence in Scotland and try justify that as an excuse to reject the Section 30 order.
The Tories seem to think that ABJECTLY LOSING ELECTIONS is the equivalent of WINNING them !!!
They must think we zip up the back.
……..
Perhaps it is time to speak to the U.N. (i wouldn’t be surprised if Nicola has already done so) about the refusal by WM to grant a Section 30 order, particularly on the grounds of “now is not the time”/convenient to WM.
The U.N. handily has THIS wee article in its Charters…
………..
3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.
……………
In other words…now IS the fecking time !!
Richard MacKinnon says:
2 May 2017 at 12:17 pm
“It seems pretty clear to me. I cannot see what the issue is with the veracity of all the newspaper headlines”.
#Specsavers!
PEACE ALWAYS (big writing)
A Section 30 order only transfers the ability to make changes to the UK constitution, limited by remit, from Westminster to Holyrood. Given how little I’d trust Westminster to implement the result of a second independence referendum should it go against their wishes having such a transfer of power is a useful guarantee. It’s not an actual necessity and I assume that Westminster would chance their arm on making that exact point should they be called on it by the UN.
However given the potential change of government in the offing there’s always a possibility that May knew a long time ago that in all probability a GE was coming and that a pig headed new government might attempt to rescind any extant S30 on the basis that successive Westminster governments aren’t bound by their predecessors.
@ Dick
“It seems pretty clear to me. I cannot see what the issue is with the veracity of all the newspaper headlines”.
Well of course you don’t. You see everything thru rose-tinted yoony goggles and you are perfectly happy with keeping them. Which, naturally, shields you from reality.
You should swap them for these:
http://imgur.com/Waen9EV
And even these:
http://imgur.com/qD5oM4C
Theres a simple explanation as to why Corporate Media print the same stories or Broadcasts, its down to the British propoganda units Press officers ,they are the real source of those stories.
It occurs that the Unionist media’s insistence that #GE17 is about independence could come back to bite them if both Labour and Tories continue with their current shambles.
Those journalists – whether you believe they are journalists or not – deserve to be locked in a small room in Cornwall.
Nah. Independence can wait until it’s Nicola who is framing the francise to include EU Nationals and U16’s, and also has tangible indisputable evidence that Brexit is indeed going to be the disaster we all think it is, if we allow it to happen to Scotland. In 18 months we’ll know the truth, not just the heavily redacted Tory version of events.
Let’s make this cynical stunt of a Tory General Election all about Brexit, and the epic monumental f__kup which the Tories don’t want us to talk about, and the which the grossly contemptible media agitated into a rise in hate crimes, xenophobia, and incalculable stress and anxiety for foreign nationals living in the U.K. May this plague you have summoned be on all your houses.
Tell me again Theresa, just how strong and stable you an Ruth the mooth are, the both of you ardent Remainers defending EU membership before the Brexit result. Strong and stable? You’re a pair of certifiable Tory Hypocrites at the head of dangerous juggernaut of BritNat far right hatred that you cannot yet perceive because neither of you have the sense or intellect to see the consequences of what you’re actually doing.
Your rank hypocrisy and populist opportunism is going to end up with people being hurt. You both talk about a constructive future with Europe while your deluded stupidity is all but ensuring the spilt with Europe will be difficult, acrimonious, unstable and hugely damaging to the UK economy for decades to come.
You’re no different from the Emperor Nero fiddling while Rome burned, except you haven’t the class to actually play the fiddle. You stamp your feet, clap your hands, and take turns humming on a kazoo.
Let’s put this in terms a young goat can understand eh?
What she’s saying is that the heart of the election is ‘surely that decision’ irrespective of ‘whether you support independence or oppose independence’, ‘should be taken by the Scottish people and the Scottish parliament, and not by a Tory government at Westminster.
Where that refers to the matter of whether Scotland ‘should’ have another referendum on whether we should become an independent country.
In simple terms it’s up tae the Scottish people and the Scottish parliament to decide on these matters not ‘a Tory government at Westminster’
(The issue at the heart of this election is — whether you support independence or oppose independence — surely that decision should be taken by the Scottish people and the Scottish Parliament, and not by a Tory government at Westminster.”)
Mackinnon’s deliberately leaving out the rest of the quote to blur the context.
“For my benefit, please explain what the difference is between NS’s statement and the newspaper headlines?”
Careful with the trolling, there.
The level of lying is commensurate with how fast the Maybot is driving her crashing car…at this juncture way above the speed limit. That said I wouldn’t believe the time of day from Tory propagandists like Farqhuerson at any point much less an election.
Richard MacKinnon 12.17.
You gave the game away that you have some difficulty in comprehending the English language in the the first word of your post.
Go away and learn the difference between ‘your’ and ‘you’re’
Richard Mackinnon’s mother baked a cake for her son full of nuts.
I wonder what other falsities the yoon media and tv will come up with, especially in the next couple of days. This is also meant to scare the horses away from the council elections. I hear that some people, due to GE wall to wall, are forgetting there are council elections on Thursday. The yoons will be hoping that there is a low turnout, with their fans having put their postal votes in and the rest being chauffeur driven to vote on Thursday.
I hear that some folks are being sent letters to say that their bus passes are going to be taken away by the ScotGov. Utterly disgraceful unionist lies. Project fear all over again.
Scheming, lying, unionists with the power of the media at their beck and call. How very 21st century britnat style democracy.
Grouse Beater’s opening concise comment above, is the truth.
I’ll add..
OUR MEDIA IS OWNED AND OPERATED BY PEOPLE FOR WHOM INDEPENDENCE WOULD REMOVE THEIR UN-NATURAL INFLUENCE AND PAID-FOR PRIVILEGE.
‘Whether you support independence or oppose independence, the issue at the heart of this election is surely that that decision should be taken by the Scottish people and the Scottish Parliament, and not by a Tory government at Westminster.”
That’s not the ‘quote’ Orri? This is the quote:
“The issue at the heart of this election is — whether you support independence or oppose independence — surely that decision should be taken by the Scottish people and the Scottish Parliament, and not by a Tory government at Westminster.”
So taking away the hyphens gives this:
“The issue at the heart of this election is whether you support independence or oppose independence surely that decision should be taken by the Scottish people and the Scottish Parliament, and not by a Tory government at Westminster.”
So rewritten without the hyphens as a direct quote gives you the exact meaning just as clearly as with the hyphens. Why alter the entire quote tae make yer point? If yer point is predicated on ‘without the use of hyphens’, ‘changes the entire meaning’. It only affects the entire meaning if you change the entire quote Orri, irrespective of hyphen usage?
“Respect the banana”. – Minion
We will never ‘dissappear’, Argentina style, we will never forget, never shy from the truth, never forgive denied sin (lying), never give up our desired to self determination.
Never..whereas Tories are dying out, and the elite become more fragile.
Well one thing is clear and that is that Dick McKinnon is a Yoon troll and was clearly knitted by his mither!
It must be hard slaving away, day in day out, for the Ministry of Truth. But probably better paid than a zero hours contract job.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5ybDS2Ddzo
@Richard MacKinnon says: 2 May, 2017 at 12:17 pm:
” … I cannot see what the issue is with the veracity of all the newspaper headlines.”
And that, Richard, says very much more about you, and your grasp of correct grammar, than it does about Ms Sturgeon or Mr Campbell.
Sorry guys, well not very sorry,
this is wildly off topic but too good not to share. Now we will see what the true level of support for Shetland ‘secession’ is. I’ll take a punt on 1.5%
http://www.shetnews.co.uk/newsbites/14521-hill-to-stand-for-parliament
@CameronB Brodie
😀 LOL
despite all the ridiculous attempts by Mayhem and co to try and cloak the EU negotiations in secrecy , hasn’t it dawned on any of them that the other members of the EU have to be kept informed .
At the very beginning it was stated all EU countries will be fully informed , cant these people read ? or are they just used to getting their own way , in everything .
I believe one sustained push and she will topple its all window dressing and brass neck , right push lads push .
Portjim,
2 May, 2017 at 12:57 pm
No I am not. Your example “I am in favour of hanging being abolished” is one clause. It cannot be split without a total distortion of its meaning. Sturgeon’s statement has two clauses,
The first “The issue at the heart of this election is — whether you support independence or oppose independence” and the second, ” — surely that decision should be taken by the Scottish people and the Scottish Parliament, and not by a Tory government at Westminster.”
The first clause, NS proposes as a fact. The second as a related opinion. They both can stand alone and still make sense.
To be honest critical analyse of this piece of rhetoric is not easy without a in depth background knowledge. We all know the nuances of what NS is trying to imply but her predicament is of her own making. Had she made the GE an independence issue (made it a manifesto pledge) she would not be in the position where she has to contort her language to explain herself. There should be no surprise that newspapers are onto to her.
Newspapers like to put politicians on the spot. It is their purpose in a free press. OK the British press is pro unionist. We all know that. All the more reason why NS should have handled this GE with a clearer more assertive strategy.
‘We want independence but not now’, is not a good policy and is being ridiculed for what it is, week and naïve.
If Mayhem’s vote tory 2017 mess continues to slide in this farce UK, its only going to get more savage in UKOK goon media. But you can look elsewhere, to see what’s what.
As long ago as yesterday.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/brexit-negotiations-will-be-brutal-nasty-and-potentially-short-1.3066989?mode=amp
Not much chance of grovelling Yoons agreeing that such matters are decided in Scotland though. The Hootsman types rail at the very presence of Holyrood.
That said, what if independence were to be at the heart of the campaign? What would the Unionists parties do? It isn’t like their campaign material, banners, party political broadcasts etc., mention it. They would be so disadvantaged…oh wait 🙂
In the meantime, May, quite possibly the worst street campaigner of all time, continues to hide from the public and curtail the press to reporting nothing but “strong and stable”…which must be one of the biggest signs of unstable paranoia I have seen in a while. She is looking incredibly tired.
I hope it isn’t too early to go o/t.
I heard a disastrous interview this morning between Nick Ferrari and Diane Abbott on LBC at about 8am. She was asked about Labour’s plans to increase police numbers in England. She made a complete mess of the figures and Ferrari made mincemeat of her, quite rightly.
Just as Labour were coming up in the polls and the tories were starting to flounder Labour does it again. I have become convinced that Labour don’t want to win this election. Abbott may have lost it single handedly for them this morning. Sorry I don’t have a link, maybe someone will kindly provide one, for this interview needs to be heard to be believed.Then Corbyn pops up to give her his full backing, when clearly he should have sacked her.
Being in opposition is a well paid cushy number, and Corbyn has been a rebel all of his life, opposing authority is what he does best. It’s where he’s happiest.
@Richard MacKinnon says: 2 May, 2017 at 12:32 pm:
“For my benefit, please explain what the difference is between NS’s statement and the newspaper headlines?”
Why? Can you not afford remedial classes in basic English, Richard?
Perhaps you may consider a crowd funder. I’m sure some of the national press would be glad to take up your plea for help to afford English Lessons.
@Rev
(from the news) “whether you support independence or oppose independence”
Actually Rev, I looked at the Herald about 3 this morning after finishing a job, and even though I read the article and saw that bit, it caught me out too. Otherwise I’d have commented on the misinterpretation. I blame it on the tiredness!
She is looking incredibly tired.
She’s being tranquilised. She’s also allegedly coming under investigations for insider trading stuff via her hedge fund manager, who’s multi trillion dollar fund is alleged to have made a Brexit killing.
No Murdoch, BBC reports etc ofcourse,
“Reports are beginning to emerge from multiple sources suggesting that Mrs May is under investigation by the Propriety and Ethics group of the Cabinet Office in connection with an alleged failure to declare an enormous conflict of interest on Brexit related to profits of billions of pounds said to have been made by her husband’s investment-banking company in Brexit-related activities, as these tweets by political commentators suggest:”
Electoral fraud allegations and investigations, 2015 GE, Mr May makes mega hedge fund bucks with Brexit.
How frightfully tory.
@Richard MacKinnon
Lots have already replied to you but as you asked me directly. My understanding of what is being said is as follows. Take from my post in a different thread.
The quote was about the authority of the Scottish Parliament and people, and should it be over-ridden by Westminster, mainly MP’s from outwith Scotland.
It was nothing to do with a referendum directly, in fact it is not mentioned except in to include all voters ‘support or oppose independence’.
@K1 says: 2 May, 2017 at 12:37 pm:
” …
K1 says:
2 May, 2017 at 12:37 pm
OMFG Mackinnon. That’s a staggering admission of deliberately supporting the complete fabrication of what Nicola said. You sir, have just revealed you are in fact an idiot.”
I wonder what Richard would make of the above statement if you had punctuated it thus:-
“That is a staggering admission of deliberately supporting the complete fabrication of what Nicola said. You sir, have just revealed – you are in fact – an idiot.
@K1
Ironically or not you missed my point…
I stated in advance that I was rephrasing the original to do away with the hyphens in order to put it in an order that made clear that being for or against independence wasn’t the aspect of it that was at hand. It’s who gets to decide whether a referendum takes place and it’s timing.
The flaw with my rephrasing is that in that case deliberate mis-reporting would simply be a matter of omitting that prephrase. However even though the context of the quote has been embedded it’s still been misinterpreted. If this is actually an answer to a leading question then we’d really need to know exactly what that was to further clarify it. I suspect we’re in the same kind of territory of questioning that produces answers that are deliberately misrepresented.
At least this time it’s harder for the qualifying statements to be ignored unlike when Sturgeon said that it was the opinion of the SNP that an independence referendum usually only came once in a generation but went on to say that the timing of the next one was entirely up to the people of Scotland and it wasn’t the place of the SNP or any other party to rule one out or restrict when another might be held.
The same deliberately shoddy reporting reached the stages of farce when the Labour party, backed by the unionists, pursued the Scottish Government over whether legal advice had been given over Scotland’s EU membership at all despite Salmond never having claimed it had.
Debating the veracity of some news headlines is in the same category as debating the existence of the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny.
They are no different than the hacks who bummed up Hitler in the ’30’s. They are doing their Filthy Rich English and American owners’ bidding.
Seriously, I’ve read their columns and listened to them coining in appearance money on the Beeb, in their cosy wee chats with Brewer, Taylor, Bird, and Robertson.
They are journobots, spouting out fatuous Yoon guff to gleeful acquiescent nods from their buddies, the State Propaganda Wing lolling about in Pacific Quay .
I have a sense that there was a Nationalist cull 2013 onwards.
It was Kevin McKenna who asserted that he knew lots of pro Independence journalists and broadcasters. Where are they hiding, young Kev?
There will be a Day of Reckoning soon.
What Sturgeon was saying was that the decision to hold another Referendum, and the date was up to the Scottish People and their Holyrood Government as their political agents, not the Westminster Government and that this precept was at the heart of this election.
Either Sanderson, Paterson, Martin and Cramb are as thick as pig shit, or they are perverting the truth deliberately.
Grubby wee hacks either way.
How many times have you beaten your husband First Minister
The answer obviously would be “never”
Becomes: Nicola Sturgeon “Denies” beating her husband
All done Daily Maily Styley
Read the Revs analysis twice kids and absorb the kind of society the Unionists want you to live in (Under)
May admits she is a Conservative.
@Richard MacKinnon
In fairness it caught me out too, but this is a subordinate part “whether you support independence or oppose independence”
“The issue at the heart of this election is — whether you support independence or oppose independence — surely that decision should be taken by the Scottish people and the Scottish Parliament, and not by a Tory government at Westminster”
The issue is the Scottish people and the Scottish Parliament making the decisions, not the Tory Government at Westminster.
You could as well substitute any of these for “whether you support independence or oppose independence”:
1). “whether you support or oppose immigration for Scotland”
2). “whether you support or oppose free tuition at university”
3). “whether you support or oppose tax credits for more than 2 children”
4). “whether you support or oppose membership of the EU for Scotland”
etc.
They should have done it Willie Rennie styley when he always says “Aye but we know what the First Minister was thinking”
Proving that Unionists are also psychic illiterates
in any language
@John H
The Tories secret weapon, if it looks like Labour may be gaining support get the media to wheel out Dianne Abbott. Watched her for years on This Week before promotion, hopeless analysis.
Mind you I have also given up on nearly all BBC political programmes, when the best they have is ex Times Neil & ‘ex’ Tory Robinson, it’s time to move on.
Just realised that given she’s actually talking about child care and other things relevant to her visit there’s a possibility that the decision she’s talking about has nothing to do with independence at all. Indeed the video in the Scotsman has nothing about independence in it so is either deliberately misleading or avoiding the context. Without the “whether you support independence or not” part of her answer it could be about any of the SNP’s policies.
heedtracker says:
Cracking article, telling it like it is, I reckon. Thanks for posting. Some choice sentences …
“The rights of citizens are central to the EU’s sense of itself and must be protected. These are ideas that just irritate the average Tory cabinet minister. “
“British politicians and their handlers in the media have responded with cries of “blackmail” and “bullying”. “
“Will Johnson, Fox and Davis, the three hapless Brexiteers, keep their jobs? If Britain is serious about negotiations, at least two of these men will have to be replaced by proper politicians. “
orri says:
2 May, 2017 at 1:03 pm
“I did wonder at the figure of 1 in 5 scottish weans being illiterate leaving primary as being any way close to true. Fear not, there’s a job in headline writing available if their comprehension skills don’t pick up.”
That statement is a total falsehood. The last official government figures for the Scottish Survey of Literacy available reveal this for P7 pupils:
56% Performing very well at this level.
32% Performing well at this level.
9% Working within the level.
3% Not yet working within the level.
So “1 in 5 scottish weans being illiterate leaving primary” is way off. 97% are clearly performing within the level while many more are doing much better.
Chart 2.2 in the linked document if you care to check it out.
http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2015/04/7639/3
“The issue at the heart of this election is — whether you support independence or oppose independence — surely that decision should be taken by the Scottish people and the Scottish Parliament, and not by a Tory government at Westminster.”
What she is saying is very clear. Any decision of huge political weight and heft should be taken by the Scottish people themselves, and not Westminster. She’s arguing for Scottish sovereignty, not pimping out independence.
on a lighter note and definatly off topic .
Mahems glee in apparently pulling a master stroke and wrong footing everyone looks like its starting to turn round and bite her on the arse ,nothing has went right since her calamitous jaunt to the north .her stock catch phrase is now the subject of total ridicule on social media and the internet , long may this continue , and it just might signal the biggest political mistake of all time . Once the press get a sniff of blood thats when they pounce they cant stop the tide once it starts .
… notwithstanding the obvious mischief making by those choosing to misunderstand Ms Sturgeon’s phrasing, she goes on to argue that the decision should be taken by the Scottish people and the Scottish Parliament, and not by a Tory Government at Westminster.
The UK Parliament agreed to hold a referendum on the subject of Scottish Independence. The vote was had and the result is known by all. The only body that doesn’t agree with that decision – is the Scottish Parliament!
Isn’t it the Scottish Parliament that is the body that is odds with the decision of the Scottish people – not Westminster? Westminster is abiding by the will of the Scottish people.
If, in the forthcoming GE, where everyone agrees that Brexit is the main issue, support for the SNP grows – then I would be the first in line to support an indyref2. By the same token, if support for the SNP falls, then we cwill know that support for Independence had definitely not increased and that there is no reason whatsoever to run another referendum at such an important time.
Thanks Stu for your work.
I must admit I try to stay away from the MSM as it frustrates me so much. I can understand a paper telling part truth and omitting parts of the truth but not lies and deceit. B*****ds.
Noooo, Labour have unleashed the Brooninator. make sure the gullible are not exposed to the ramblings of this economy wrecking monster. Ensure they are safely outdoors as the likelihood is this may be a major BBC story
yesindyref2 @ 14:36,
Thanks, that was precisely the point I wanted to make as well. Changing the nature of the insert makes that quite clear. The issue at stake is the sovereignity of our Parliament (ie. Holyrood) as opposed to any other place.
NB: That’s a point for the EU-Leavers in particular to note. Unlike WM, which is in our face for everything, the fabled “Brussels Monster” doesn’t dictate to us when and what kind of elections we can have. We decide. Which is just as it should be.
I know it can be difficult folks, but remember to walk on by.
We’ve no more time to waste. In fact we’re pretty much out of time altogether at this point.
So if you don’t like how people post or what they’re saying, move on to those you find more relevant or reasonable.
@ Risible
See your missus has the OMO in the windae again. Just sayin’.
As an ex-pat in England I’m seriously beginning to consider voting Labour. Am I going mad, or is this the sensible thing to do under the circumstances?
@ sensibledave says: “Isn’t it the Scottish Parliament that is the body that is odds with the decision of the Scottish people – not Westminster? Westminster is abiding by the will of the Scottish people.
No.
The Scottish Parliament is elected by the people of Scotland, and in the SNP manifesto it was quite clear that a material change, such as Brexit, could precipitate a demand for a second referendum.
Since the SNP are the Government, and were supported by the Greens in a democratic vote on requesting a Section 30 order from Westminster, by 69 votes to 59 votes, the Scottish Parliament is representing the will of the people though those 69 votes – a clear majority – when it requests the Section 30 order.
It’s Westminster – the Tories – are denying not just the Scottish Parliament, but also the will of the Scottish People.
If the Holyrood Government hadn’t agreed with the decision in 2014 then they would simply have abused the power granted under the s30 transfer they had at that time to rewrite the constitution of the UK so that Scotland was no longer a part.
I failed to see the part on the ballot paper that said Yes / No and give up any rights to decide again should circumstances warrant it.
The right to self determination is not something that gets used up if you use it once. It continues even after you’ve used it. Nearly 50% of the Scottish electorate in the subsequent GE voted SNP despite knowing that independence and failing that further autonomy for Scotland was at the heart of their aims.
Indeed given the last minute panic and general portrayal of a NO vote not being for the Status Quo one might be forgiven for wondering if at least some of those who did so in the belief that at least some of the promised changes would be forth coming. How many of those who voted No’s choice is being disrespected by Westminster?
Given that we’re now in the run up to a snap GE instigated by a PM due to her uncertainty that her existing majority would be enough it’s kind of bordering on the insane to even attempt a “once in a generation” stunt.
The plurality of votes in the PR part of the election of the current Holyrood parliament is with the SNP and Greens. The parliament that can organise referenda in Scotland has a majority backing for another referendum and has actually voted in favor of one.
Get tae … with any inference that a fall in percentage vote for the SNP means anything. Especially given that in a UK context this is all meant to be about Brexit. Wonder if the Ruthmeister is going to stand up for her original pro EU principles ans Scottish interests or simply bow her head and submit to the will of the rUK/UK collective.
Not forgetting that a large part of the very people that had a say in the last vote are excluded from GE polls. Although at the same time holiday home owners and others with the choice of a vote in Scotland or elsewhere in the UK face the same dilemma as the last time as to where they can legally place the only vote they get to cast.
Also it’s too early to say how accurate polls are at the moment. There seems to be a trend towards agenda based adjustments designed to persuade some voters to move to the party of choice. Especially where that change might make a change to the result. As the polling date approaches though there seems to be a convergence on the final result. However at some point there must be a temptation to influence the polls in order to lend credibility to an election result that would otherwise raise questions.
sensibledave says:
Hopeless trolling sensible. Indy ref 2 is unstoppable. Scots now have a clear choice, Scotland Remaining a scrounger Greece like region of greater England sensibledave,
or, Scotland becoming a nation state member of the European Union sensibledave,
Or, basically Scotland stays a region run by wet tory farts like you sensible, 600 miles away, as you all kiss the Mayhem ring down there?
Tough choices ahead but they wont be stopped by a half dozen slimy Scottish toryboy’s, creeping in, June 8.
Back On Topic.
The lying press do not need to be co-ordiated they can manage that all by themselves. They only need to know one thing and that is that SNP are BAD and the Red/Blue/Yellow Tories good.
It’s flipping obvious that they will twist quotes to suit their masters agendas, I mean they’ve had plenty of practice since 2012.
The good news if there is any is that more and more are now picking this up, it’s on their radar. That’s why the readership of Wings is on the up, the lying will be their downfall and we have possibly another 18 months of it to go.
I don’t think that is possible, something must snap and then we will be on our way to governing our own affairs with an avalanche of new YES supporters.
Bring it on you lying, cheating opponents of democracy.
Broon and Rowley in Alloa today best if they went tae Falkirk!
‘Behind closed doors’ in Cornwall, journalists not allowed in and May wont give answers even though they push questions to her under the door. 🙁
Your Call (Kaye) saying the CO-OP only selling British as New Zealand lamb gets the chop… Jings!
My neighbour says she bought Loch Tay Blackberries…thinking Scottish best… they were frae Spain. 🙂
Some folk have forgotten the seasons in North Britain.
@Richardinho
If I lived in England I’d vote Labour (or LibDem) if that’s any help.
Hi Orri, indeed so, irony it is!
As I ‘focused’ on the ‘removal of the hyphens’ being the ‘salient’ point and completely speed read your ‘blocked’ text, in doing so clearly missed ‘Rewritten to avoid their use’.
Here endeth ma being telt, rightly so for ‘mistakenly’ misinterpreting what you actually stated.
Turns out at times we really do see what ‘we’ want to see. It’s whether we can honestly admit it when pointed out and…learn from our mistake.
Apologies Orri. 🙂
yesindyref2 says:
2 May, 2017 at 3:42 pm
@Richardinho
If I lived in England I’d vote Labour (or LibDem) if that’s any help.
Green is a new option too, for real changes.
Psycho tories vomiting billions on nuclear power but for far less money, they can easily put solar panels on most English homes which would more than cover nuke electric generation, says science.
Psycho tories fcuked it all off, for Hinkley C or whatever the psycho’s call it. Whole life costs of just one nuke power station are so large, they’re not just out of control, they’re impossible to calculate.
Germany now has no nuke power stations, population near 100 million, booming economies, capable of sustaining mass middle east civil war refugees etc.
But Germany is not run by psycho tories, from Ruth D, via the Fluffster, Mayhem, all the massed ranks of BBC gimps, who now think Diane Abbott’s the way to tory victory, June 8.
@Macart
The problem with Richard MacKinnon is that he wants to abolish the Scottish Parliament, a view I don’t agree with of course and I doubt anyone posting here does, but one that is supported by 8% of the electorate of Scotland, according to the 2016 SSAS. And I believe it – I know a few and come across them in person, plus there’s 3 or 4 posters on the Herald have the same view. In terms of the 2014 turnout, that’s 288,000 people in Scotland – and in a democracy, their views are important, even if a minority.
But it doesn’t mean distortions such as the media have made of what Sturgeon says are acceptable, and in fact it weakens their integrity, and hence their democratic beliefs, if they continue to push that distortion in spite of the evidence to the contrary.
That’s my take on Democracy in a nutshell! It should be honest.
Image 4th. down from top in Main Article.
” General election 2017:Sturgeon says vote about independance support.
SNP leader says general election is largely about whether people support or oppose independence.
Published by: BBC News-Scotland”.
Last year the newly appointed Director of BBC Scotland [the Big Boss up here] said,”My mission is to restore trust in the BBC”.
How’s that going?
Any success yet?
@Heed
Thanks yes, my mistake, If the Green has a chance of winning, then Richardinho could vote for him/her – otherwise I think the most likely of Labour / LibDem.
#toriesout
This is O/T, but with everything moving at a great pace, it all seems like a game of dot-joining to reveal some bigger picture.
I happened to stick on the telly earlier and out sprang that Daily Politics programme. McTernan was on, wallowing in Blairite nostalgia. But then they moved to cover the Scottish local elections. They did four quick video pieces on SNP and the tripartite Yoons, then back to the studio for ‘expert’ analysis.
The ‘analysis’ consisted of talking about Yoon parties with very little said about the fortunes of the SNP. It then occurred to me that it wasn’t just about ignoring the SNP but more to do with talking about that which they are more comfortable with. An analogy would be English football pundits forced to talk about Scottish football in any detail. You just know their knowledge is very limited and they can’t wait to get back on to familiar ground where they can wax lyrical.
The dots that this joins up to forms a picture that depicts how many English people still do not ‘get’ what the Independence movement in Scotland is all about.
@ Breeks 1.32
Spot on.
A tweet yesterday ‘wrong and unstable leadership’. The reality.
Brown back into the field. ‘Son of the manse’? He is genuinely EVIL. Him and Darling are hypocrites on a world class scale. Together with Blair and the rest of the Scottish red Tories they sum up what Labour have become – a despicable fraud that no-one should support. And now the Angel of Islington tries to persuade the public that they have changed – take a look at the chancers supporting him, the original motley crew. They don’t need rescued, they need burying.
On radio 4 this morning, re-writing who won the war. That is where we are being taken. A cold war with Germany. Justification for anything and everything. The Brits can never get away from their deluded xenophobia – and Corbyn’s Labour will wring their hands and support the Tories. They are hell bent on living in the past with solid geriatric support. Not from this geriatric I might add.
Scotland has to get out before it is too late.
A leaflet from Davidson with an above average number of ‘referendum’ words.
https://mobile.twitter.com/DW80000/status/859423721265778688/photo/1
The issue of another referendum, from a Scottish democratic mandate point of view, was settled in the 2016 Holyrood election.
Why won’t the Tories accept they lost that vote?
@ Orri 3.37
I will promote the cause of Scottish independence until it happens or I drop of the perch – whichever comes first. I will NEVER give up. And if I die first I will haunt the people who wish to destroy Scotland.
I reckon that most Wingers excluding the usual trolls are in agreement that the the UK Press are nothing but propaganda organs.
I don’t know if it is still the case but in the days when I still bought what are now known euphemistically as newspapers they all contained a statement either at the foot of the Leader Page or foot of the Back Page that they were’Registered As A Newspaper At The GPO’.
I presume that to qualify for such registration they had to conform to some rules and regulations.
Does anybody out there know what these were?
I have been an avid reader of newspapers from the time of The Korean War until finally giving up in disgust 8 years ago after having been a loyal reader of The Scotsman (my then paper of choice) for 44 years. I was just sick of having Propaganda shovelled at me masquerading as news.
Unless I was naive and unobservant it used to be the case that while papers were know to favour a certain party the only place where they tried to influence readers was on the Leader Page which was normally the left hand page in the middle of the paper with the Leader column on the left, an opinion article at the top often penned by a politician and readers’ letters at the bottom.The rest of the paper consisted of Home and Foreign New reported in a pretty straight manner without blaring headlines like our old favourite ‘SNP Accusedd Of—–‘ and Adverts.
I first noticed a change when Thatcher gifted Times Newspapers to Murdoch who installed Brillo as Editor of The Sunday Times.
Brillo set out to destroy the legacy left by that brilliant editor Harold Evans and turned the paper into a Thatcher Fanzine.
When Thomson Org.sold Scotsman Pubs. to the loathesome Barclay Brothers they installed Brillo who embarked on a similar exercise and started the destruction of The Scotsman which has been completed under the subsequent ownership of JP.
It also used to be the case that no names were attached to news reports but that has also changed whereby even the most inconsequential item has to have some ‘journalist’s’ byline attached.
Would it be possible, if such a thing doesn’t exist, to create a legal definition of what constitutes a newspaper.
I would suggest that what I stated above – restricting political propaganda to the Leader Page would suffice as a starting point and that our lovable Press Barons would have to sign up to that.
Any deviation from that strict definition would be punished by the imposition of a 100% Tax imposed on the Cover Price for a period depending on the seriousness of the offence determined by an adjudication panel. This would hurt the barons as it would reduce circulation.
The problem would of course be in who would sit in judgement and how would they determine what was a breech and the seriousness thereof – obviously blatant lying and distortion would merit the heaviest penalties.
Additionally they would be forced to print a retraction with that being the sole content of the Front Page not like the tiny retractions we get nowadays hidden away using the smallest type face available.
The above having been said there isn’t a hope in hell of it happening.
the dog philosopher – agreed – the cat was out the bag when in the last week before the 2014 vote we had English people being interviewed and most of the comments were ,What – how the hell has it come to this ,whats going on, they were totally in the dark and they were let down by their media , dereliction of duty .
an event as important as the the union disintegration happening before their eyes or in this case behind their backs, was sidelined and ignored until the panic set in , the panic that gave birth to the Vow , lessons haven’t been learned they are at it again , same shit different event and day .
@Yesindyref2
Yes, that is a problem and no, it’s never acceptable for people to knowingly and willingly misrepresent or perpetuate a misrepresentation.
Our politics should be more honest, more transparent. Advocates of parties who think that misrepresentation or outright fibbing in support of their party’s position is simply following acceptable practice of opposition really should take a long hard look around themselves. See what politics as it is practised has bought the populations of the UK today.
They should also take a long hard look at their language, the rhetoric of their statements and general releases, how they affect society. Mind you, it’s kinda what they count on tbf. Using language to direct the public. Their greatest problem is self control. They don’t know where to stop. Draw the line on what is acceptable and what’s not?
Pretty much why we are where we are today.
Wonder if they look on their works with pride? Wonder if they even give a shit what they’re doing to people whilst they’re ‘practising politics’?
It is well known that journalists from different newspapers talk to each other before going to print and often decide what angle they should use. Always subject to the editorial line when writing up political stories.
This confirmed by my father who worked as journalist for a local weekly paper and had an arrangement with a journo from the rival paper. They would split their patch and swapped stories to be rewritten. Same with the local sports coverage.
Scotsman group papers get their headlines inserted in Cardiff.
@sensibledave
We shouldn’t have a referendum at such an important time you say
What important time would that be Dave, you mean the important time created by and for the Tory parties advantage over UKIP and for their own internal squabble fest
That would be the important time Scotland voted against but UK democracy dictates whatever England votes England gets and the other three Nations can just shut up and do as we’re told, not much of a voluntary union that Dave
You might as well just say the biggest guy in the fight wins before the fight’s begins
I don’t normally go in for replying to your sort Dave but are you seriously really suggesting that’s the basis of a democracy that you actually like, one where the mighty rule
because if you’re advocating that while at the same time criticizing the EU for being undemocratic as all the toe the line Brexiters do then I might just remind you of one word as to how undemocratic the EU is
Wallonia! and if you can find something undemocratic about that it’d be a treat to hear it
Scotland as part of the UK has no say in anything we’re outvoted every single time by a combination of the Unionist MPs and they do it just for fun and we know it
As part of the EU Scotland has the same say as Germany or France and my case in point Wallonia being the most recent of proofs
Of course we have at the moment Mrs Mays important time that we also didn’t ask for or need but who the hell are we to argue or Wales or Norn Ireland because once again England decides
And if England decided to stick monkeys up their Arses they’d be telling us to do the same as part of their precious union, well what happened to our union, the voluntary one, remember that, seems it’s become a mandatory union now, and who decided that
We don’t like it, we don’t want it the United Nations has described Theresa Mays government as “Inhumane” and breaching human rights with some of it’s policies and Theresa May who is a third choice for prime minister has only been in the job 5 minutes and already the rest of the world think she and her government are a bunch of Pratts
Self determination for any people of any country who wants it is contained within the UN charter
This year the BBC is celebrating the Independence of Ghana with special telly events
But there’s one thing missing from the celebrations of that country and that’s all the folk from Ghana who are not on the phone begging to be a colony again
gus1940 says:
It’s a difficult area, how to control the press but allow it to be ‘free’.
Some things could be done easily. I agree completely that any retraction should be in the same location, font, and page area as the transgression. Astonishing really that this is not already in place.
I would also fine them because the fake news they can with could have generated income. A percentage of income on that addition would be fair.
Also, I agree that part of the problem is the way news and opinion have become blurred. That didn’t used to be the case. Perhaps papers should be forced to attach a ‘health warning’ to opinion!
The online world means we are used to links to sources. If this general principle was applied to news it would highlight what is actually news. If they refer to a poll, there should be a printed link to the dataset. If the quote expert opinion, then there should be a link to published sources.
News and opinion should adopt different styles and it should be clear what is factual reporting and what is just “some arsehole said”.
Labour disgust me in so many ways. On the other hand I do feel that they (or their members) do deserve some credit for electing Corbyn. I have voted Green previously. I do get a feeling that they are a bit anonymous outside of elections however. I can’t think of any reason for not voting Labour in London.
It must be soul destroying for any young journalist who went into that career determined to wield the mighty sword of truth and justice only to discover that the reality is they will be told what the truth is to be, their job is to make the facts fit the message or if some don’t, leave them out.
It probably gets easier once their soul has been destroyed though.
We don’t have a free press. We have a controlled and manipulated right wing press and news media supported by the BBC. Let’s call the news editors to Holyrood give them the examples and watch them lie again. Will it change their ways ? No of course not. Liars are liars. But it may show some doubters how they operate.
test
@ Sensible Dave.
Surely an SNP majority is all that’s required then?
Is that not how democracy works?
Or do the SNP need to jump through extra hurdles?
Weird Yoon perversion of reality.
@sensibledave says: 2 May, 2017 at 3:07 pm:
“The UK Parliament agreed to hold a referendum on the subject of Scottish Independence. The vote was had and the result is known by all. After all the coalition was democratically elected, was it not”
Pish! sensibledave.
I’m going to have to go back to ignoring such idiocy. Before I go allow me to explain how bloody idiotic your posts are.
By your kind of idiotic logic, sensibledave. the UK should still be under The Duke of Marlborough coalition government of 1707-1708 before Robert Harley’s Tory government took over in office. After all the coalition was democratically elected, was it not?
The Marlborough coalition had not run its full term and, in any case, Robert Harley should have been in jail as he was the English Parliament’s spy master who controlled both English undercover agents, William Paterson and Daniel Defoe who had engineered and trapped Scotland’s parliamentarians into signing the Treaty of Union.
You do talk the most stupid pish of almost any other Yoon Goon that ever disgrace Wings.
Sensible Dave? = troll
It probably gets easier once their soul has been destroyed though.
I know two who have climbed the greasy BBC pole Chic. They are interesting in the certitude of their own greatest and rightness. And they are rather thick too. Its a lethal upper middle class combo but it is probably the psyche needed to get on in UK toryboy media. Champagne socialists both, very champagne.
They are under a lot of pressure though. One great guy I know well shot up the Herald ranks, reached the top and then quit less than a year later. It all cost him his hair and his integrity.
That’s Mike Gove’s gen of tory chancers basically.
WOS archive links for November 2013 now over on O/T.
Great choice to take on Viceroy Fluffie June 8. What a relief it would be see the back of that toryboy.
https://twitter.com/MairiMcAllan
Here is the FAS article translated, spread widely.
There is no way that this dinner conversation was ‘gossip’. We are heading for complete economic disaster with these Tory fuckwits:
https://medium.com/@20sthredhead/i-translated-that-infamous-german-article-concerning-the-may-juncker-dinner-that-everyones-been-ac5f952b92e
Go Mairi! And she can sing a bit too.
Seen in PQ car park earlier today. Misreporting Scotland car sticker. Ah’ll no get allowed back…
heedtracker 3:38 pm
You wrote “Indy ref 2 is unstoppable”
As discussed, Ms Sturgeon will only hold a referendum if she thinks she can win it – and she doesn’t think that at the moment (or she would be angling to hold it now!).
Based upon the outcome of the GE (which you will doubtless argue provides no information on whether Independece is becoming more, or less supported) she will determine whether she actually wants a referendum or not. You and I know Heedy that if the SNP lose their share of the vote in the GE then that can be only interpreted as falling support for Independence. She will not run a referendum that she believes she will lose.
Scots now have a clear choice, Scotland Remaining a scrounger Greece like region of greater England sensibledave,
or, Scotland becoming a nation state member of the European Union sensibledave,
… they had that choice – and they chose Heedy (that’s the Scotts Heedy – not me or anyone in England!)
Again, as I have said previously, Ms Sturgeon made a career defining error when she painted herself into a corner with the threat of holding indyref2. She is now in the position where the only way she can keep her job is by winning indyref2 – and that is unlikely to happen until well after Brexit – and she will have to resign long before then.
I think Theresa May is going off the deep end.
Speaking to BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg, Mrs May said there were a lot of similarities and common ground in the two sides’ positions.
She added: “But look, I think what we’ve seen recently is that at times these negotiations are going to be tough.
“During the Conservative Party leadership campaign I was described by one of my colleagues as a bloody difficult woman. And I said at the time the next person to find that out will be Jean-Claude Juncker.”
https://archive.is/BUp21
Bloody difficult woman is not how I’d describe her. Blood fool more like.
You make great play of the quote ““The issue at the heart of this election is — whether you support independence or oppose independence — surely that decision should be taken by the Scottish people and the Scottish Parliament, and not by a Tory government at Westminster.” despite its somewhat mangled English.
The quote attributed to the FM in the Times is “The issue at the heart of this election is whether you support independence or oppose independence. Surely that decision should be taken by the Scottish people and the Scottish Parliament, and not by a Tory government at Westminster.”
Therefore the headline is quite apposite. The sense of the two sentences is indeed different but it is coherent (and better English).
The calumny heaped on the Times journalist is undeserved. The point of the fuss is that the FM has contradicted what she said on April 25th.
@sensibledave
“As discussed, Ms Sturgeon will only hold a referendum if she thinks she can win it – and she doesn’t think that at the moment (or she would be angling to hold it now!). ”
You know fine the timetable of any referendum.
1). Holyrood vote to formally request Section 30. Done.
2). Wait response – say 2 months.
3). S30 goes through HoC, HoL and Queens assent – say 3 months.
4). Bill goes through Holyrood to set date – 2 months.
5). Organise referendum with advice from Electoral Commission – 1 month
6). Follow Electoral Commission guidlines for minimum 6 month campaign – 6 months
7). Vote
Total – 14 months at a rough minimum.
So don’t give me any of that “why doesn’t she hold it now” crap.
Unless you really truly genuinely don’t have a clue.
@Phil Robertson
Here you go son, get it from the BBC.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39769564
You’re wrong.
@sensibledave
How many Westminster seats did SNP have in 2014?
Trolls have NO souls.
What they DO have, is a failure of comprehension.
See above.
In all probability Phil Robertson is wrong. There’s the remote but unlikely possibility that the Times choice of punctuation is correct despite every other report having it as a single answer with the mention of support for or against independence as saying that it shouldn’t matter whether your for or against independence.
That’s the context we’re missing. We don’t know the question that was asked in order to get that reply. In all probability it was about holding indyref2. There’s no denying that Conservatives have to employ some seriously dodgy reasoning here though. If they overplay the pro Brexit angle then they might not get as high a vote for themselves as they hoped. However they need every other party than the SNP to agree to their anti referendum stance to avoid their voting against one tactic backfiring. Especially dodgy given they’ve already stated Labour are wishy-washy? on the subject.
Let’s not forget that May was the one originally setting the agenda here. It’s possible it was originally a bright idea of Davidson’s but given her attitude is to stick up for her party rather than Scotland even on issues where devolution should allow her the scope to “rebel” I very much doubt it.
As I said earlier, The Scotsman has footage from where this quote was obtained. Hopefully they have a full transcript if not video of Sturgeon giving the quote in question. Perhaps they might be willing to share it?
Independence for Cornwall!
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/859363204652302336
Cactus says:
Trolls have a mission 😉
Amazing isn’t it?
About to enter negotiations basically as a supplicant and she says she’ll be bloody awkward.
The lunatics (and incompetents) really have taken over.
The Conservatives will get you the best deal from EU negotiations… Uh huh!
https://twitter.com/jamieszymko/status/859452632414527488
Theresa May says she’ll be ‘bloody difficult’ to Juncker
Someone needs to take her aside and explain she holds very few cards in this negotiation.
If she walks away, there might be a cheer round the 27 accompanied with a ‘good riddance,.
If she wants trade access then she will have to accept ongoing financial contributions and movement of people.
Perhaps ‘negotiations’ is the wrong word. The EU will put a take it or leave it proposal on the table. There will be minimal scope for tweaking around the edges.
The EU hold all the cards!
Hard Brexit for sure, the EU have no other choice when dealing with idiots like May, Davis and Fox. There can be no possible deal with the two sides so far apart.
The second Independence Referendum might just come sooner than anyone could imagine.
This “Bloody difficult woman” will make all our lives more bloody difficult just to spite the EU and quench the thirst for blood that the hard right Tories have in abundance.
It looks like war over Gibraltar after all.
@galamcennalath
Compared to the trade deals the EU already has “The EU has specific trade policies in place for all its partners and abides by the global rules on international trade set out by the World Trade Organisation.“, and it’s worth putting this link up again for people to look at to show just how many trade deals the EU actually has (loads):
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/
its policy is: “The EU is firmly committed to the promotion of open and fair trade with all its trading partners.”
the UK is just one more potential trading partner, no more, no less. All it has to do, to be true to itself, is try to negotiate with the UK in good faith. But if the UK doesn’t kikewise negotiate in good faith – in its future position as a third country as the EU calls it – then the EU-27 can shrug their shoulders and WALK AWAY.
Theresa May and the Tories have no cards, except a load of jokers in a bridge pack of cards playing in no trumps.
I’ll just comment that there are 4 ‘regular’ contributors to the btl comments on WOS that I now scroll past.
I also scroll past comments responding to those 4, posted by Wingers who should know better.
I think you can surmise who the 4 are…
Where did it all go wrong ?
dear dear just when you thought the rain had stopped Teresa it starts pissn down again ,
We are now hearing claims and an investigation is being called for into HSBC being implicated in a dubious even a dirty money laundering scheme to fund the tory party’s election for previous parliaments 2010-2015 .
Oh well you started it Mrs May still want to carry on ? .
I am resigned to the fact that Nicola sturgeon will not be
resigning anytime soon, no matter how many yoonies use the
word resign.
In fact i expect the resignations of rag,tag and dugdale long
before then.
Phase one is the divorce settlement.
The EU won’t move on until their bill is paid and the rights of their citizens in the UK are clarified.
The loony right will try to pay little or nothing and May at one point hinted that she saw citizens as a trade bargaining chip. I can see it never getting beyond this impasse!
The alternative is, having increased her majority, she crumbles and agrees soft Brexit. What are the chances of this? Actually I’m not totally discounting it. The problem would be selling the U turn after building up blooded soil nationalism.
What a state to get into. Absolute idiots!
Surely the “independence supporting” The National quoted the First Minister accurately?
@BDTT
Really the only valid reason to reply to one of them is to use them mercilessly to make a point. Such as:
“The Tories are restricting child tax credit to 2 children only, yet the UK has an ageing population and NEEDS more births and young people, especially with its xenophobic immigration policy. How stupid can the Tories get – the UK under them will actively discourage childbirth, and hence seal the fate of its present and future pensioners, while at the same time destroying the economy and GDP of the UK.
Vote Tory and work till the day you die in a third world country.”
#toriesout
The Scottish media, led by the BBC, is the enemy of the Scottish people, in my view.
“Surely the “independence supporting” The National quoted the First Minister accurately?”
The 10 most popular stories on the National are these at the moment:
——————
Most Popular
1 Letters II: An open letter to the First Minister from a disabled family
2 Bought and sold for English gold: Part three of our major series marking the 310th anniversary of the Act of Union
3 Michael Fry: There’s nothing wrong with conservatism – but May’s Tories will always put London ahead of our interests
4 Carolyn Leckie: Ruth Davidson needs to stop talking about independence and get on with the day job
5 Scottish Socialist Party: We must make this the ‘independence election’ with clear commitments in parties’ manifestos
6 Better Together’s Alistair Darling dismisses the possibility of Prime Minister Corbyn
7 Letters I: How did Ruth Davidson come by her colonel role?
8 Jean-Claude Juncker warns ‘deluded’ Theresa May that Brexit cannot be a success
9 Blow to Unionists as 51% of Scots back independence in new poll
10 Vonny Moyes: Let’s not kid ourselves that ‘stealthing’ is a trend. It is rape
——————
with the open letter starting with this:
“An open letter to First Minister Nicola Sturgeon THANK you from the bottom of my heart for your government’s decision to ban private companies, such as Atos, from gaining profits while they humiliate and shame disabled and vulnerable people during their horrendous Personal Independence Payment assessments. The weight this has taken from our shoulders is immense.
but then genuine readers of The National would know that.
The lying apologist for the Tory R**e Clause Ruth Davidson will claim tonight in an interview on STV’s Scotland Tonight program:
Rape victims only have to “tick a box” and “put their name on it” to claim additional child benefit
https://archive.is/UbeTt
She is one of the worst types of politician. A total trougher who cares naught for anyone other than her own career. Get these monsters out of Scottish politics.
Vote them out, all of them. They make me sick.
I imagine all those journos’ former teachers sit with their heads in their hands whenever they see the toal mash their formal pupils make of their marvelous jobs and deny any recognition of said numpties at school reunions.
To all who are facing their exams just now GOOD LUCK!
Just keep the heid and do your best = )
You have a long life ahead of you and many many different opportunities. You WILL find your path 🙂 This is just part off that journey = )
“Surely the “independence supporting” The National quoted the First Minister accurately?”
The 10 most popular stories on the National are these at the moment:
——————
Most Popular
1 Letters II: An open letter to the First Minister from a disabled family
2 Bought and sold for English gold: Part three of our major series marking the 310th anniversary of the Act of Union
3 Michael Fry: There’s nothing wrong with conservatism – but May’s Tories will always put London ahead of our interests
4 Carolyn Leckie: Ruth Davidson needs to stop talking about independence and get on with the day job
5 Scottish Socialist Party: We must make this the ‘independence election’ with clear commitments in parties’ manifestos
6 Better Together’s Alistair Darling dismisses the possibility of Prime Minister Corbyn
7 Letters I: How did Ruth Davidson come by her colonel role?
8 Jean-Claude Juncker warns ‘deluded’ Theresa May that Brexit cannot be a success
9 Blow to Unionists as 51% of Scots back independence in new poll
10 Vonny Moyes: Let’s not kid ourselves that ‘stealthing’ is a trend. It is r*pe
——————
with the open letter starting with this:
“An open letter to First Minister Nicola Sturgeon THANK you from the bottom of my heart for your government’s decision to ban private companies, such as Atos, from gaining profits while they humiliate and shame disabled and vulnerable people during their horrendous Personal Independence Payment assessments. The weight this has taken from our shoulders is immense.
but then genuine readers of The National would know that.
(sorry Rev, didn’t see the R word in my cut and paste)
@Brian Doonthetoon
You spoke too soon LOL.
one journalist can make a thousand lie
Judging from my frequent spelling errors, I would’nt manage such a good mark this time round! Ooops = )
Wouldn’t!!! Punctuation is NOT easy!
Telling the truth, however, should be natural for us all.
Especialy for those who choose to make a career of informing the public.
Ch.4 news has just repeated the same misunderstanding.
However, that could work in our favour because we will win both elections.
How will the Tories present that?
Rev I’ve falling foul of the filter by using the word R**e in my post, not once but twice. thought I had corrected it before realising the second instance was in the claim by Davidson.
It’s an easy thing to do especially when it is so high profile, please ignore my earlier two posts.
——————————————-
The lying apologist for the Tory R**e Clause Ruth Davidson will claim tonight in an interview on STV’s Scotland Tonight program:
R**e victims only have to “tick a box” and “put their name on it” to claim additional child benefit
https://archive.is/UbeTt
She is one of the worst types of politician. A total trougher who cares naught for anyone other than her own career. Get these monsters out of Scottish politics.
Vote them out, all of them. They make me sick.
I see from the Rev’s twitter feed that Ruthless is gnashing her gums to the effect, Juncker was drunk at the Downing Street dinner.
Maybe we should tell Ruth the Mooth to get back to the day job – the EU negotiations are a reserved matter, and, in any case, having voted Remain, Ruthie has now gone over to the dark side and is backing Mother Theresa’s hard Brexit.
If I was Mother Theresa, I’d be telling the monkey to shut up and let the organ grinder do the talking.
Aye thats the way to win those pesky foreigners over Ruth insult them , works every time , i thought your opening line might have been yer usual “JUST SHOUT A BIT LOUDER”
A star in the making dont you think , god help us .
is she really out unsupervised ? this care in the community needs looking at , with Tompkins already on the Loose who knows what could happen . Oh shit there goes Wullie .
yesindyref2,
“The 10 most popular stories on the National are these at the moment:”
So the “independence supporting” The National too failed to quote the First Minister accurately?
For a very long time, Scots had a blind faith in Labour, until they were exposed as wolves in sheep’s clothing.
@Thepnr
Any excuse to promote The National, the only newspaper in Scotland that (currently) supports Independence.
My favourites were 8,9 3 and 4 🙂
Mmm, that use of English, word order.
Any excuse to promote The National, the only newspaper in Scotland (currently) that supports Independence.
That’s better 🙂
@Phil Robertson says: 2 May, 2017 at 5:32 pm:
” … Therefore the headline is quite apposite. The sense of the two sentences is indeed different but it is coherent (and better English).”
Oh! Get real, Phil.
In the first place you are not commenting upon what, or what not, the First Minister said, or did not say, during her speech at, “a nursery in Aberdeenshire …”.
You are commenting upon what several different, well known, anti-independence, dead tree press reporters or columnists from several, well know, gutter-press, laughably claimed to be newspapers, interpreted as what she said.
So before going any further let’s also be clear that, as a well known, anti-independence, sometimes commenter on Wings they and you are well-known to frequently have been proven to be bare-faced liars.
So there’s the first salient point.
It is thus totally pointless to go any further with this debate until someone produces a video, or audio, recording of what the First Minister actually did say.
After the many times the usual suspects have been exposed as bare faced, and deliberate, liars no-one takes anything they report as truth any more.
For Example their reports that Alex Salmond claimed he had, “EU Legal Advice”, when the BBC transcript of the interview by Andrew Neil showed the question Neil asked was, “… and do you have advice from your own Scottish Government’s legal officers”.
To which Salmond said he had. How, though, can saying you have legal advice from SG legal officers become advice from the EU in the brains of the BBC and other MSM gimps? It was, without doubt, utter Yoon pish.
Then we had the press conference for the international press corp. The one where, a very belligerent, Nick Robinson asked an exceedingly idiotic question of Alex Salmond and Alex calmly spent several minutes explaining, in detail, the actual answer that did not please liar Robinson one bit.
Within minutes the BBC were on air with liar Nick’s report to the World. The laughably claimed, unbiased, BBC had edited out the long, detailed, answer but showed liar Robinson asking the question. Then lying to the nation, “and he didn’t answer”.
So now we have the same usual suspects here on Wings attempting to do a similar hatchet job on Ms Sturgeon.
If I were a betting man, and I’m not, I would bet none of those attempting to claim the known liars interpretations of Nicola’s speech at that Aberdeenshire nursery had actually heard a recording or heard live what the FM did actually say. They read the usual suspects interpretation and now are swearing that they know it is truth.
Let’s test the matter right now Phil – were you there? Have you heard or seen a known un-doctored recording of what was actually said?
Yet here you are arguing about the correct punctuation of a report of what some known anti-indy hostile reporters from a known anti-indy proven liar publication wrote.
If you don’t mind I, and I assume most Wingers will reserve judgment and presume, until proven otherwise, that known liars tell lies.
“The calumny heaped on the Times journalist is undeserved. The point of the fuss is that the FM has contradicted what she said on April 25th.”
And you know this for certain, Phil, because? … …
O/T
https://twitter.com/Ian_Fraser/status/859449942720557058
SNP Treasury spokesman @RogMull calls on Electoral Comm to probe HSBC’s covert funding of Tories via laundered loans
Mad as a box of frogs at the Telegraph …
” There is still a view in Europe that Brexit will not really happen or that the UK will have to take what’s given. Mrs May has said no deal is better than a bad deal so she needs to prepare now for crashing out of the EU without one. “
Link wouldn’t archive properly
@yesindyref2 says: 2 May, 2017 at 5:33 pm:
“Unless you really truly genuinely don’t have a clue.”
Now that did make me laugh out loud?
Asking sensibledave if he actually has a clue? Does any Winger have the slightest doubt sensibledave ever had a clue, about anything, ever?
Sources close to the Conservative party have revealed that a T.May has apparently failed the Turing Test. Although the first PM to achieve this we will still be able to benefit from strong and stable leadership. She then went onto recite Daisy, Daisy.
Xenophobia taken to a new level by Theresa May – she wants to lead the world in preventing tourism. Did the times quote her exact words or embellish them?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp48C4IfQ8I
So you’re not interested in:
1). A disabled family took the trouble to thank the First Minister of the Scottish Government for the recent decision to ban private companies, such as Atos, from javing anything to do with implementing Scottish Government policy?
2). A series on how the Acts of Union were forced on Scotland
3). An ex-Conservative says “Don’t vote Tory” (#toriesout)
4). Ruth Davidson – a Tory – is told to shut up and get on with politics that actually helps Scotland
5). The SSP strongly want this to be an Independence Referendum (I disagree but it’s a valid point of view about INDEPENDENCE from the independence supporting The National
6). Alistair Darling is undermining the Scottish Labour Party and indirectly supporting the SNP in Scotland
7). Tory Ruth Davidson’s colonelhood is questioned (#toresiout)
8). Theresa May “strong and stable”, Junckers doesn’t think so
9). 51% YES if you add in EU and out of EU – a majority poll for Indy
10). Vonny is back to her strength and normal agenda
*laughs 9 out of 10 pro-Indy, anti-Tory and you complain?
*laughs
#toriesout + #stopthetories
(correction 5). The SSP strongly want this to be an Independence election – not Referendum
Two weeks into the GE campaign and I have to say I am surprised at how awful May’s campaign has been. She comes across as a sociopath who doesn’t like or trust people. Ruth has car crashed over the 3rd child clause and the Tories generally have looked at sixes and sevens over Europe.
Corbyn has not done much which is probably why he is back up to 31% in the polls. Keeping a low genial profile might be his best strategy. However, having Blair, Darling and Brown rattling about sends out mixed messages (something Diane can do all by herself).
Farron I can’t pin it down any more than that. Sometimes sensible on issues like the EU, other times disturbing on issues like same sex relationships.
Nicola has picked up where she left off in 2015 and is playing to her strength…she likes people and people like her. Given how unpleasant the rest of it all is (and likely to get a lot more unpleasant) I hope she keeps on that trail.
The thing I find amusing is the notion that a small party gets to decide what an election is all focused on.
If a major party like the SNP decides that then that’s fair enough. However if they decide to focus on something else well that’s tough luck on the minor party.
It becomes silly when small parties try to set the agenda and you could get UKIP claiming the whole election was about Brexit.
@Robert Peffers
🙂
It seems to me sensible, Phil and the night-shift are suffering from, wait for it, wait for it …
“A failure of comprehension”
Scotland’s journey to independence is one hell of a ride.
When we’re there.. it’s gonna be a best-seller.
See you there.
Have to agree @Thepnr says “Hard Brexit for sure”, but it probably always was going to be.
The EU haven’t changed their position since pre Brexit (it just wasn’t reported).
That is free movement of goods & services = free movement of people = free movement of finance.
The Self Entitled WM Establishment thought the EU would budge.
They won’t.
The narrative now being dripped out by a compliant BBC/MSM will be “May and the Brexiteers fought a hard fight but those ‘bloody foreigners’ were being totally unreasonable so she had no choice but to walk away with no deal.”
Because remember TMay said ‘no deal is better than a bad deal’.
There is only going to be a ‘bad deal’ as there was never going to be a deal as ‘good’ or ‘better’ than the one the UK just voted to give up.
Aweright galamcennalath ~
Aye.
Trolls have NO souls.
Trolls have a mission
Trolls have NO vision.
Trolls, there aye fishin’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXwuQnC2fto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWvwrSzva_E
@HandandShrimp
Yep, the First Minister is without doubt the queen of campaigning, she’s more popular than the ice cream van
Kids are out right away and it’s all cheers for Auntie Nicola
It must drive the Yoons mad!
Thepnr @ 7.30pm
Ms Davidson if she is going to claim that all applicants have to do is sign the form to claim is lying through her teeth.
Here is a link to the form
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/support-for-a-child-conceived-without-your-consent
Please, everyone read it then you will get some idea of what Tory ‘compassion’looks like. A thing of utter ugliness.
First she has to get her hands on the form – ncc1. Does she go to the job centre? Local library? Council offices? Where? And does she have to ask someone when she gets there? So much for privacy.
Then she will find that the form is a booklet with several pages setting out how to fill out the form and the criteria for claiming -3 and a bit pages. Then the form in 3 parts.
She signs the first part – true – BUT she also has to NAME the child.
Then parts 2 and 3 have to be filled in by a professional or someone who knows the circumstances of the r**e. In other words she has to tell this person the circumstances of the r**e.
Just sign her name – give me strength.
Is there no depths to which this woman will sink?
This line about ‘just sign her name’ was in an article in the Herald last Thursday written by John McLellan and I suspect that is where Ms Davidson got the idea to take this approach.
Clearly she is banking on no one having looked at the form.
So look at the form and let everyone know what it is really like.
One final point, the form is for women in England, Scotland and Wales. I think there is a separate one for NI. Perhaps because this clause has been added:
“”Please be aware that in Northern Ireland, if the third party knows or believes that a relevant offence (such as rape) has been committed, the third party will normally have a duty to inform the police of any information that is likely to
secure, or to be of material assistance in securing the apprehension,prosecution or conviction of someone for that offence.””
Arthur Thomson @ 4:21,
Hear hear, that makes two of us !
O/T
Has anyone engaged with the Alan Cochrane page in our comedy section ?
I might get grief for this but I couldn’t resist registering after reading the comments page.
It’s like shooting fish in a barrel !
The ignorance and bile knows no bounds, if you can steal yourself have a look, sad.
This is what so called educated people read ffs.
Had to comment, couldn’t help myself, was very nice and constructive, no I really was, educating the ignorant is a wonderful thing
Andrew @ 9.17pm
I totally get that Andrew…no I do honestly.I think you could almost make ‘a religious conversion’ type analogy or have I pushed this boat out too far…lol
“The First Minister is without doubt the queen of campaigning.”
Just so, Dr Jim. She visited my town on the Monday before the 2014 referendum, gave a talk to OAPs and then gave 12 faultless interviews to the media while Andrew Neil tried to put words into pensioners’ mouths. She’s great with people. The contrast with The Mayntis is enormous. It’s an inconvenient truth which sets the Yoons a-frothing.
Sorry to upset the BBC and Le Pen ( 😉 ) but Craig wants to tell us something:
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/
Like his economic analysis.
Apparently the story is going around that Mayhem decided on an election in order to get rid of David Davis. At the fateful dinner with the two top EU honchos, Davis is said to have happily mentioned having made three applications to the European Court of Justice to block attempts by the UK Home Office (prop. T.May) to increase its snooping on us all. May was decidedly unamused.
You can see why May is desperately keen to cut us off from the ECJ, since nothing must stand in the way of her control freakery. And keen to remove Davis as well, not perhaps because he is a longstanding Brexiteer, but because he has been consistently very sound on citizens’ privacy rights.
This election is not just about Brexit, the Maybot wants total control. Over Scotland, over everything.
@Socrates MacSporran says: 2 May, 2017 at 7:41 pm:
“If I was Mother Theresa, I’d be telling the monkey to shut up and let the organ grinder do the talking.”
That, Socrates, is just the problem. Just who is or are, “The Organ Grinder(s)”?
They sure as hell are not those elected to the House of Commons nor appointed to the HOL. The Organ Grinders are faceless, nameless, extremely rich individuals in some distant location and they often head long established, dynastic families that between then own most of the World and greatly influence happenings in the rest of the World.
They care nothing for those not included in their tight little circle of fellow dynastic wealthy families.
They value their horses and other pets far higher than none rich humans and despise their minions who they will sacrifice in an instant.
Robert Peffers @ 21:40,
This is an unusual election because it seems the financial wheelers-and-dealers are not very happy with Mrs. May. This hard Brexit stance is not what they were expecting. Kneejerk populist anti-immigrants may still mostly be ignorant self-harmers, but the “free traders” realise that continued tariff-free access to the EU via financial “passporting” and suchlike is their bread and butter, and are scared of losing their meal ticket. As well they might be, just as the rest of us should be too, since the only alternative on offer is a massive slump.
This is why The Evening Standard in the first day of its new editorship =nudge, nudge= is attacking May, and why Gina Miller & Co. are pumping big money into her opponents. Not because they want to stop Brexit, but to send a message that they want their kind of Brexit, ie. a “soft” one that keeps them in the single market.
She will likely listen to them once she has gained room to manoevre with an election win behind her. And give a two-fingered salute to all the Tory-voting Brexiteer suckers, who didn’t realise that “taking back control” doesn’t apply to them, only to Maybot.
Aye, ‘they’re aye fishin’
Vote casting finishes in 48 hours time.
A bit like the Crystal Dome.
100 gold or more wins you Scotland.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-nJaC-V5xU
The quote requires a context. “The issue at the heart of this election is — whether you support independence or oppose independence — surely that decision should be taken by the Scottish people and the Scottish Parliament, and not by a Tory government at Westminster.” What is the decision at the heart of this election that should be taken by the people of Scotland? Is it “Whether you support independence or oppose independence”? Or is it the decision to have a referendum or not to have a referendum?
Haven’t had time to read all the posts, but came across this.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-1SeRQXkAETaQF.jpg:large
“No I am not. Your example “I am in favour of hanging being abolished” is one clause. It cannot be split without a total distortion of its meaning. Sturgeon’s statement has two clauses,
The first “The issue at the heart of this election is — whether you support independence or oppose independence” and the second, ” — surely that decision should be taken by the Scottish people and the Scottish Parliament, and not by a Tory government at Westminster.”
The first clause, NS proposes as a fact. The second as a related opinion. They both can stand alone and still make sense.”
Sorry, but this is complete horseshit. The bit between the dashes (“whether you support independence or oppose independence”) is a parenthesis, and the rule about a parenthesis is that you can lift it completely out without changing the meaning of the sentence. That leaves you with:
“The issue at the heart of this election is surely that decision (ie the decision to hold a referendum) should be taken by the Scottish people and the Scottish Parliament, and not by a Tory government at Westminster.”
That’s a completely unambiguous statement.
@ Robert Graham 8.01
@ jfngw 8.25
Comedy gold.
Worth reading Roger Mullin’s Twitter account. https://twitter.com/RogMull
It’s 10.30pm. So far not one newspaper, radio or TV station shown any interest in huge story about Tory / HSBC financial corruption.
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/859468587332972544
@W. Habib Steele says: 2 May, 2017 at 10:22 pm:
“The quote requires a context”.
Thing is, Habib, as I pointed out already. Until someone produces a video or audio recording of what was actually said, then all we can go on is the transcript of the anti-indy MSM and/or broadcasters who we know all report things word for word as id briefed by some central agency.
Even when there is a video clip, photo or audio clip these people have, many times, been caught out falsifying photos, videos and audio recordings.
It is just as easy with, digitally recorded signals, to do a PhotoShop type edit with photographs, video clips and audio clips.
Have a wee Google at, for example, Pinnacle Studio, that comes with an audio package called iZotope and various other easy to use editing tools. It isn’t greatly expensive but can, in the right hands, do wonderful things in a very professional manner.
These days you cannot believe the photo you see, the video and audio you view to be an authentic record of the truth. Believe my I know for I’ve been filming and photographing stuff since around the late 1940s and editing audio since the first reel to reel tape machines became available to the public and I was doing video editing even before camcorders came on the market.
Tell you what search YouTube for Pinnacle Studio 20 and see just what it can do. If you haven’t done video editing then you will be amazed at what it can do.
Anyone else find these Tory poll numbers in Scotland hard to believe. I smell a rat! Ruth was all coy when asked about these by John Mckay. Very like when she revealed she looked at the postal ballots. I don’t trust the people running the UK at all.
If Nicola was asked by a yoonclone “What is the best possible future for Scotland?”
And she answered “Nothing would be better than independence.”
The headline would be “Sturgeon Admits Independence Would Be Less Than Nothing!”.
I absolutely get the deliberate twisting of the FM’s words. It is yet another example of the misrepresentation of all that we do and stand for.
How destructive must it be of the state of mind of these people who lie for a living. They must be hollowed out by their constant attack on the peace loving people who support Indy.
A lot like our pet trolls really.
Robert J Sutherland
The election to get rid of Davis is a red herring, she can get rid of him anytime she wants. It’s just a diversion oh look a squirrel!
@Big Jock
I just look at how much Labour has gone down and it usually correlates with how much the Tories have gone up
The SNP and Yes vote is pretty much solid it looks like other parties are swapping sides or lending their votes around to the point where it will be Unionist v Nationalist until the risk of definite long term Tory government in England is understood then Scotland will probably go overwhelmingly Nationalist with Independence to follow PDQ
I’m guessing of course but I’m a pretty good guesser usually, I guess
Oh, for the love of…
I cannot believe this person represents anyone.
https://twitter.com/STVNews/status/859464033111552000
Tick a box?
Ms Davidson amply demonstrating a point I’ve made many a time on Conservatives and simple human empathy there.
Well done Ms Davidson. (slow hand clap) 🙄
Just another lie. At best a gross distortion.
The hope is that enough of the electorate don’t have access to any other source of news. And then are swayed by the message they are pumping out.
That is not certain at all. People don’t actually button up the back, however much our would-be imperial masters might wish it.
As it is being pushed on multiple channels they must be quite confident of their message. Or, more likely, simply have no other narrative to follow.
It’s not like they have a record worth campaigning on, after all.
May is ‘touring the country’ is a minutely managed bubble.
I hope that as things start going wrong for her campaign (and they will), the bubble she has created to keep actual people out also prevents the news that it is going tits up from reaching her also, and oblivious, she stays the course to disaster.
That would be a fine thing to witness.
Stay active on the council elections! 2 days to go!
@pool9
Yes, council elections first. Polls open in 30 hours 57 mins. Get the people out to vote.
How the STV system works in the council elections if you’re still not quite sure, here’s a wee video explaining it. Clear and concise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrNejaszSE4
Once again the Rev exposes in clear light the extent to which the MSM spread downright misinformation. Keep up the good work Rev.
Sorry to bang the repetitive drum (although far less than Theresa May, I have to say) but we’re still some way off target on our indyKit fundraiser.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scotref-express-europe/x/6905220#/
We’ve got just over ONE DAY left. Obviously we’re not going to hit target now – but if we can get at least 50% then the unionists will have one less thing to crow about.
We’ve got off-site donations of £2,500 so we’re not actually very far away from the 50% mark!
We are grateful for every penny that we receive. And we’ve been incredibly lucky to have some private backers who have ensured our work continues, so every penny that you give now goes into Indy Kits that will go to Yes groups all over Scotland.
Thank you – and don’t forget to ‘Vote till you Boak’ (Tories last!) on Thursday!
Lindsay
ayeMail founder
John McKay asks the questions so nicely and always makes sure he doesn’t upset the guests by asking anything.. Feckin Pertinant!
Will you just grow up John
Where’s Feckin Ponsonby anyway he’s the politics guy for God sake, STV will be offering them French Fancies and tea with lemon next
I fully support RogueCoder’s appeal and have already donated what I could at this time.
Everything donated will find it’s way to the Yes groups that are now spring up again as they must if we are to win. The kits supplied to them at a token cost to basically cover postage will help them raise their own funds and make Yes more visible again.
I know it’s very hard and many have contributed over the years to dozens of appeals and there will be more in the future, we know that.
If you can spare a fiver though in this case I’m certain it will be put to very very good use.
I hear Kezia’s increased the wages for her team of Twitter Trolls if they keep the First Ministers timeline clogged
I hear the FT are reporting the EU have increased the UK Brexit Bill to €100Bn or £84Bn….oh the fucking hilarity…!!
Best investment ever, those shares in popcorn producers…?
Macart at 11.51
Wasn’t Ruth brought up on a point of order for saying the same thing during the Scottish debate.I seem to recall a female SNP with documentation in hand setting Ruth straight
geeo says:
3 May, 2017 at 2:26 am
I hear the FT are reporting the EU have increased the UK Brexit Bill to €100Bn or £84Bn….oh the fucking hilarity…!!”
Aye, go ahead Ruthie, call the man an alcoholic again. Kerching!
Why not accuse him of breaking stuff and stealing things? Or is that just an accolade restricted to your fellow Scots?
When I look at Nicola Sturgeon, whether it’s sitting on a park bench taking a selfie with some Scots young lads frae the scheme, fending off poisonous questions at the UN, or just standing up for EU Nationals who’s lives have been thrown into chaos, what I see is a shining example of the progressive, tolerant, inclusive and respectable country which an Independent Scotland can some day be.
Then we come to the tank squatting, Buffalo jumping, SIT DOWN, “cannae dae the accent” smug wee Troll in a £12k mobility vehicle Taken Without Consent from some poor bastard that needs it. Then I think aye, that’ll be the Me! Me! Me! ex BBC gobshite who fancies herself as the next First Minister of Scotland. The sickening wee Toom Tabard toady who slags off her own people because she knows it’s what her superiors from the London Establishment want to hear. Superiors who don’t even remember her name. Aye. Scotland. Knowing its place in the Union; the skelped wet dug with its bed in the corner. Welcome to The Right Honourable, Honorary Colonel Ruth Davidson’s honourable vision for honourable Tory Scotland.
You might think reading that I’m a Sturgeon SNP sycophant, but you’d be wrong. It’s a purely objective observation that Nicola Sturgeon, product of Scotland, has dignity, humility, and integrity by the spadeful, whereas Davidson, the epitome of Unionism, is a crass and mannerless wretch on the hunt for honourable British ermine.
it is my opinion, Rev. Campbell ….. that you are willfully exposing Cretins … and, I might add, doing it on purpose !!
Just to repeat what rogue coder and Threpnr above say, the appeal for indy kits is very important. If you can throw a small amount of money their way, it will help us all enormously. The group behind this appeal is very worthwhile, and have worked hard in support of independence. Let’s try to get this one cracked.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scotref-express-europe#/
The referendum is coming, and we need to be ready.
@ian murray
Can’t honestly recall, but I wouldn’t be surprised. Ruth does have a knack for saying and doing incredibly insensitive things at the worst possible time.
It’s a talent I suppose.
Breeks
A character demolition worthy of the Scottish tradition of flyting.
Boy does rock hate the National. Did he lose out in a job interview? Is he Tom Gordon? Torquil Crichton? Some guy Begg?
The National has been pretty good recently. It’s front pages striking in the news stands despite the unionists trying to hide it. I buy one and leave it on the bus. My small way of spreading the message.
Legerwood
That 8 page form is in the same vein as the court room examination of rape victims. The victim may not be repeating the crime to a court room full of strangers, but they do have to go through it with the professional.
The whole trauma is relived and the memories may keep recurring in the days afterwards.
I believe the law was changed for courts so that the cross-examination could not be used by the rapist to make the victim go through the crime again. This form is doing that to the victim.
Legerwood
That 8 page form is in the same vein as the court room examination of victims. The victim may not be repeating the crime to a court room full of strangers, but they do have to go through it with the professional.
The whole trauma is relived and the memories may keep recurring in the days afterwards.
I believe the law was changed for courts so that the cross-examination could not be used by the criminal to make the victim go through the crime again. This form is doing that to the victim.
O.T
I would just like to take this opportunity to wish our very own Paula Rose all the best for tomorrow .
Paula I have not seen you since Arbroath Seafest during the referendum but I do keep up by reading your twitter account , keep up the good work.
breeks
I read your wonderful 4am rant about Gaulitier Ruth, and my first thought was to reflect on one of the great Fred Trueman stories and its punch line.
The legend has it, during an MCC tour to Australia, after a good session in a Sydeny pub, Fred was persuaded to turn-out for a local Australian team against their local rivals, who had a very myopic “home” umpire.
Any way, Fred, bowling at full pace, was twice denied absolutely plumb leg before wicket dismissals by this “homer”, so, by now well fired-up, he delivered an unplayable “yorker” to leave the stumps shattered.
He turned and roared at the unpire: “HOWZAT???” only to be told: “Tough luck mate, you nearly had him that time”.
Breeks – you nearly had Ruth the Mooth that time.
Finally, can I just say, in over 40-years as a sports writer, I have never, other than on my NUJ membership application, described myself as: “A Journalist”. When I see some of the shite they are publishing these days, I am very happy with that.
@ Breeks 3.56 – come off the fence Breeks. Tell us what you really think of Ruth Davidson.
Spot on BTW
Day Two of new shiny neutral Scotsman has another large centrepiece photo of Ian Murray and Kezia Dugdale plus the usual quota of six anti Snp / indy letters and no pro SNP / Indy letters published.
Plus letter from BBC’s Ian Small saying how trusted the organisation is.
Another complexity regarding the r@pe clause is it presumes that it’s the third or subsequent child that is the result of non consensual sex an a decision not to abort. I wonder how many first born children are.
Should we get biblical here and point out that Mary wasn’t given much choice in the matter. She didn’t seem to have been allowed a say. Luckily Joseph seems to have been a decent bloke. However if the Roman Empire had had child support would she have been told no if applying for the second of his children?
yesindyref2 5.33
Sorry yesindyref2, I have obviously made the mistake of listening to the likes of Robert Peffers too much.
I thought that the argument was that the Scottish Government can do whatever it wants, whenever it wants, and doesn’t need permission from Westminster to hold a referendum? Or is Mr Peffers just a blowhard?
More to the point though, do you really think that if support for the SNP falls in this GE, Ms Sturgeon will still go ahead with the indyref2? Not a chance, it would be the death knell for the Indpendence movement. The SNP cannot afford another Independence referendum loss, so she will not hold one until she knows she is going to win it – and that will not be before Scotland “Brexits” with the rest of the UK.
IT all comes down to the forthcoming GE. Will SNP support go up – or down?
As I wrote in threads when Ms Sturgeon pushed for the referendum vote in Holyrood, she underestimated Ms May and she has had her bluff called.
The GE will determine Ms Sturgeon’s future. If the Scots don’t increase their support for her when potentially facing “Being ejected from the EU in the hardest of Brexits” – then when will they?
Britnats continue on their unerring way of making many more enemies at home and abroad. Thankfully the rest of the world now sees Scotland and England as two very different countries. The rest of the world will welcome an independent Scotland regardless of Westminster’s petulance
As I wrote in threads when Ms Sturgeon pushed for the referendum vote in Holyrood, she underestimated Ms May and she has had her bluff called.”
Mayhem’s snap power grab GE has nothing to do with her irritating Scotland region sensibledave. Not surprised you’re peddling this latest tory shyste as anything more than a spivy toryboy powerplay.
For one thing, maybe biggest tory con too, Mayhem’s crew are trying to outrun the cops, election expense fraudster charges, 2015 GE.
You can outrun the cops sensibledave to be fair to the Mayhem crew but its a hell of a way to run a country, let alone the unfolding Brexit catastrophe.
But thanks for trying to pull our fledgling Scottish democracy into your disgusting shitting old Better Together Westminster farce though.
Sensible Dave
If a combination of Tories. Labour and Lib Dems don’t win a majority of GE seats in Scotland then Theresa May cannot ignore the democratic choice of the Scottish Parliament to hold another referendum and UK support will dwindle with each passing Brexit set back.
Britnat Davidson ups the brexit divorce bill – box ticked.
Britnat Davidson lies about the britnat r… clause – box ticked as she tells others to tick box.
Britnats May and Davidson walking in the woods yesterday – both boxes ticked?
If everyone who reads this gives then £5 we’ll help significantly.
Please donate.
Today is the last day
Wingers are defending the future of Scotland.
Tories have unlimited legal and illegal funds we are predominantly people backed . ‘Wingers’ have our reputation to think about
Please donate.
Thankyou.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scotref-express-europe#/
S, you’ll be comin-oot as Erchie MacPherson next?
Was Ruth Harrison at the EU Dinner? or have I missed something.
Dan Huil says:
Perhaps ….
“The rest of the world will welcome an independent Scotland
regardlessbecause of Westminster’s petulance”…. because of petulance, and much more besides. 😉
Truth is, Scots have been totally complicit in the worldwide misdeeds and excesses of the UK over the last 300years, however it will do us no harm to now be seen as the good guys!
With the news from the Guardian that the DUP and the UUP have agreed not to stand in the same constituency, we have another reminder that politics in the UK is being reduced to a two horse race (as in the USA).
This suits the Unionists perfectly as they strive toward a true dictatorship while keeping the appearances of democracy by having a token opposition. Anyone will do.
It’s also a reminder that the whole shebang is the creation of Lynton Crosby. Theresa May is just the name above the shop.
But there is a serious point here. Collusion in sport is not tolerated in any form, so why is it now standard practice in politics.
What used to be SNP V CON V LAB V LIBDEM
is now SNP V CON+LAB+LIBDEM
At least it is when every election is labelled as an Independence Referendum.
Independence – once a choice, now a necessity.
@galamcennalath 9:42am
You’re right. The best thing about all of this is that it’s britnats doing the most damage to their so-called precious united kingdom.
Brian Powell @ 8.19am
Yes, it does make the victim relive the whole thing. It most certainly is not a ‘sign your name’ and the money is yours process.
It makes me so angry that I am almost beyond words.
They are now talking about the Brexit bill now up to 100 billion, no mention of that last year.
Who the hell is going to pay that bill?
Yes you and I the poor taxpayers.
Born free, taxed to death.
Worth reminding people.
General elections aren’t decided on vote share, but seats won. That is the nature of First Past The Post.
The party that returns the most seats from a country carries the will and mandate of the electorate.
DO NOT buy into this vote share bullshit the meeja and their chaintuggers are disseminating. A GE is NOT about vote share, it’s about seats. If you want Scotland’s population protected from the worst depredations of Tory legislation. If you think that Scottish interests are best served by a Scottish Government that answers to a Scottish electorate, then return as many of our current MPs as humanly possible.
I guarantee you, the establishment parties would put precisely zero roadblocks in the way of any Westminster legislation.
We’ve heard the ‘Strong and Stable’ message so much it’s becoming a joke…maybe the tories should just shorten it to ‘a message from the SS party’!
orri says:
“Should we get biblical here and point out that Mary wasn’t given much choice in the matter. She didn’t seem to have been allowed a say. Luckily Joseph seems to have been a decent bloke. However if the Roman Empire had had child support would she have been told no if applying for the second of his children?”
But, orri, nothing of what you’ve said appears in the bible.
What a pair of Tory twats on Sky News right now !!
Hammond and Davies are unveiling a rather distastful poster (a bomb with the proclamation that Corbyn would mean “No bombs for our Army, one big bombshell for your family”, with the ridiculously ironic “MORE DEBT HIGHER TAXES written on the picture of the bomb.
When will journalists ever challenge these bastards ?
“Excuse me, but has the DEBT not went up by nearly £1 TRILLION since YOU took over in 2010, and when did it become ‘labours’ great crash of 2008” ?
Punctuation is importanthe. Commas in the wrong place can change the entire meaning of a sentence. Thus:
KATY likes Tom, who plays football, better than Billy.
And
KATY likes Tom, who plays football better than Billy.
Same words, same order but two different meanings because of the commas.
Punctuation, or lack of it, can also cost money as an American company recently found out: https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2017/03/16/lack-oxford-comma-costs-maine-company-millions-overtime-dispute/BIxK837fA2C06qavQMDs5J/story.html
So the press have made hay based on their selective Punctuation of a sentence which contained a sub-clause. When spoken it would have been relatively clear, especially if part of a longer reply, that it was a sub-clause. And longer, multi-sentence replies invariably contain sentences with sub-clauses.
But when written down, taken out of context and then creatively punctuated it becomes something else entirely.
As others have said – is there video footage or audio? Given that many reporters use their phones to record their Q&A rather than written notes then there must be some audio. Although it is unlikely any reporter would admit to ithe.
Some people on the negotiating side of the UK don’t seem to have a common understanding of their own language
EU Parliament this morning!
In response to the ridiculous notion that Nicola Sturgeon will put the referendum on ice if SNP support falls in this GE, i will say only this.
When any WM PM or Political Party win 95% of WM seats AND 50% of the vote in a General Election, THEN and ONLY THEN will they have the right to talk trash about the SNP.
Proper punctuation and grammar is the difference between ‘helping your Uncle, Jack, off a horse’ and ‘helping your uncle jack off a horse.’
David Davies says the UK is not going to pay the Brexit bill, which Europe says isn’t a bill, but the cost of the UK honouring its commitments.
It’s a short formula, X + Y = No EU Trade Deal.
Somehow I really don’t fancy the odds of Brexit negotiations taking 18 months.
Do we have an emergency Independence strategy that can be completed in 18 days? Or frankly, 18 hours if push comes to shove…
I get the horrible feeling I’m going to wake up one morning already Brexited…
Paula Rose.
Good luck tomorrow. We met up again at the “Fife to Dundee” march a couple of weeks ago.
Continue vaping!
From The Times
“May can talk with Barnier, says EU, no one else.”
But the whole point of the GE was to strengthen her position in Brexit negotiations.
Theresa May – what a waste of time, money and effort.
The General Election too.
Now what?
geeo s10:11 am
You wrote “When any WM PM or Political Party win 95% of WM seats AND 50% of the vote in a General Election, THEN and ONLY THEN will they have the right to talk trash about the SNP.”
… you totally misunderstand me geeo. I have nothing but admiration for what the SNP have achieved electorally in Scotland – in particular, the stunning rout by the SNP in the 2015 GE. No one could not be impressed.
But that was then and this is now. Ms Sturgeon argues the point that the result of the EU referendum means that the position has substantially changed since the last indyref. She is right, we all face huge change as a result of the EU referendum and that Scotland certainly voted to Remain (so did most of the Tory heartlands).
As you well know, the question the Scots face now is would they prefer to stick with the UK outside the EU (assuming we do Brexit) or leave the UK and be in the EU (or some shortened version of it?
The forthcoming GE will be a very good indication of how the majority of Scots are feeling about that (for the record, again, I don’t mind either way).
The dimension that I haven’t seen discussed yet is what happens if the UK does end up brexiting without a deal!? How would that affect the potential trading relationship between a separated Scotland and the rest of the UK. Scotland is hugely reliant on the rest of the UK for its trade and if all of that trade carried tariffs because SCotland was in the single market and the UK was outside of it – then that could be very bad for Scotland’s economy (and also very bad for the rest of UK too).
It is very hard to imagine a situation where the majority of Scots vote to separate from the UK – whilst having to introduce trade and tariff barriers with the UK at the same time.
Personally, despite all of the current posturing, I believe that the UK will achieve some sort of a fudge deal with the EU for post Brexit – but that deal wont be defined for a very long time yet.
Has Ruth Harrison ever met Juncker?
Why don’t you all tell Sensible Dave to bugger off and mind his own business
He is more needed in his own back garden.
Happy World Press Freedom Day to you all.
As Gandhi said “Freedom of the press is a precious privilege that no country can forego.”
Seems to me the UK gave up having a free press quite some time ago and here in Scotland we don’t have ‘the press’ at all just Unionist Propaganda.
Rev Stu, GAP, James Kelly, Craig Murray, Prof John Robertson, even The National are our Free Press.
If we had a mainstream free press in Scotland, Scotland would have been free from the Union by now.
@Silverytay says: 3 May, 2017 at 8:25 am:
O.T
“I would just like to take this opportunity to wish our very own Paula Rose all the best for tomorrow.
I’ll second that and extend best wishes to all indy supporting candidates in all wards in every constituency in Scotland.
Yes Wishing Paula Rose and every Indy supporting candidate all the best for tomorrow.
Just in case you did not know,
FMQ`s are on today,
1.30 i think,
live on BBC Parliament and http://www.scottishparliament.tv/
SensibleDave quote”Personally, despite all of the current posturing, I believe that the UK will achieve some sort of a fudge deal with the EU for post Brexit.”
You just nailed it why I dont pay any attention to the MSMedia… It is full of opinion pieces with no evidential basis to support their claims. Personally, your statement holds about as much water as a metal colander I once wore on my head.
A little light relief.
The brexit menu at 10 Downing Street revealed:-
https://twitter.com/EUflagmafia/status/859529123307413509
“The dimension that I haven’t seen discussed yet is what happens if the UK does end up brexiting without a deal!? How would that affect the potential trading relationship between a separated Scotland and the rest of the UK. Scotland is hugely reliant on the rest of the UK for its trade and if all of that trade carried tariffs because SCotland was in the single market and the UK was outside of it – then that could be very bad for Scotland’s economy (and also very bad for the rest of UK too).”
As I understand it.
In such a scenario, the trading relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK would depend on how Scotland was participating in the single market. If a full member of the EU, or out of the EU but still in the Customs Union, then the trade relationship would effectively be whatever was in place between the EU and the residual UK state (Kingdom of England if you like). If Scotland was out of the EU and Customs Union, but still in the EEA / Single Market, then Scotland would be free to negotiate it’s own trade arrangements with England / rUK.
Recommend you find and watch the recording of Lesley Riddoch’s speech at Dundee on the 22nd April. In that she gives a very clear explanation (cup and saucer analogy) about how the EU and EEA fit together.
R.I.P. UK
https://twitter.com/prydwen3/status/859482456415756288/photo/1
Brian McHugh 11:13 am
You wrote “You just nailed it why I dont pay any attention to the MSMedia… It is full of opinion pieces with no evidential basis to support their claims. Personally, your statement holds about as much water as a metal colander I once wore on my head.”
Haha Brian, a least we agree that the stories we all read in the MSM are often just that – stories!
The EU knows that there is no way on this planet that the UK is going to agree to pay Eu 100 million before having a discussion about trade. You know that. I know that.
We therefore have to try and understand what may be happening – and just reading and believing the MSM isn’t going to get us anywhere.
If it is actually the Eu’s position that the require 50 billion or 100 billion before we agree a trade deal then we can only assume that they don’t want a trade deal with us – because they know that we will not agree to that.
That would mean that the EU doesnt want a trade deal with a country, friend and ally that is their biggest single export market in the world (closely followed by the USA I beleive).
The financial fall out for the EU would be disastrous (as well as us). The EU will have started a trade war that will have repercussions for the world economy and leave everyone poorer as a result.
If that truly is their position and they are prepared to do that amount of damage to themselves and everyone else – as a punishment to a country, friend and ally that doesn’t want to be “in the club” anymore – then the EU is even more F****d up than I thought they are (and I voted Remain).
My prediction remains the same! A fudged deal where the UK agrees to pay around 5 to 10 Billion per annum for X many years in return for tariff free trade and no free movement. Whether that 5 to 10 Billion is our “exit” fee – or to buy access to the single market – is pretty much irrelevant as far as I am concerned.
Interesting and exciting times!
Sinky 9:23 am
You wrote “If a combination of Tories. Labour and Lib Dems don’t win a majority of GE seats in Scotland then Theresa May cannot ignore the democratic choice of the Scottish Parliament to hold another referendum and UK support will dwindle with each passing Brexit set back.”
I get your point Sinky – but I don’t believe the dynamics work like that. Ms Sturgeon keeps saying that the people of Scotland and the Scottish parliament should decide whether they want indyref2 and wether they want to remain part of the UK – or not.
But, if the people of SCotland, do not vote, via the popular vote, in this GE, with the background of Brexit as the biggest issue by far, for the party that represents the vision of Independen Scotland – then Ms Sturgeon will know she is on a very sticky wicket – and will not hold a referendum.
Are you seriously suggesting that she will take the SG mandate to hold a referendum – and ignore the evidence of the outcome of the forthcoming GE> Do you believe she will hold a referendum that she thinks she will lose?
You managed to sit there smashing away at your keyboard keys Dave and still managed to tell the truth… which is that you don’t know. It is as simple as that… just say you don’t know and with it, gain a little credibility.
‘Not managed’ *oops correction.
@sensibledave says: 3 May, 2017 at 9:10 am:
“Sorry yesindyref2, I have obviously made the mistake of listening to the likes of Robert Peffers too much.”
Another bare faced lie, sensibledave, if you had listened to me you wouldn’t still be posting here.
As for the rest of your idiotic pish, I’ve been getting told, by idiots like you, that the independence movement was finished once and for all since I was a schoolboy in around 1946. Yet here we are, in 2017, on the cusp of independence. I knew in 1946 independence was inevitable, I haven’t changed my mind.
The rest of your lies are the usual propaganda pish. We are on our way to freedom and nothing Westminster can do will stop us.
The sheer idiocy of Westminster attempting to tell Scotland it is too wee, too poor and too stupid to be independent, while the ever magnanimous Englanders so generously subsidise us. Saying we had best shut up and get back in our box are wearing very, very thin.
Every day another former Yoon awakes to the very obvious realisation that, if indeed England was subsidising us, they seen to spend an inordinate amount of time and effort attempting to prevent we ungrateful vile separatists from stopping the English subsidies forever.
Once the eyes are opened they never close again to the so obvious truth. There is one simple thing the unionists can never do, sensibledave, (and that includes you), I have never yet met a Unionist you could construct an unbreakable case for the Union. There simply isn’t such a case to be made.
CARE TO PROVE ME WRONG?
No point, though, holding my breath awaiting your unbreakable case for the union. I’m almost certain you won’t even try but I may just begin to keep asking you to make your case every time I notice you have made some fool comment on Wings.
Furthermore I ask other Wingers to keep urging you to make that unbreakable case for your union.
Interesting and exciting times!
Unless you’re broke, and worse you tory creep.
EU is a corrupt and undemocratic hell hole, we must Leave asap, shreiked the whole BBC led UKOK media creepshow.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36276175
“It is important to stress that around 80% of the EU budget is managed by member states themselves, and not by EU institutions. The EU transfers funds to the national treasuries and then the countries themselves decide which projects to spend the money on. The auditors have called on EU countries to take more care in their spending.”
Its not JUST that toryboy twerps like you run Scotland sensibledave, its also that you’re all such lying creepy gits.
Scot Finlayson said at 11:10 am:
“Just in case you did not know,
FMQ`s are on today,
1.30 i think,….”
Correct. Here is a direct link via Scottish Parliament TV to the Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
First Minister’s Questions begins at 1:30pm.
http://tinyurl.com/nzstxk4
nicola already has a mandate to hold indyref2, regardless of the ge result. treeza will storm out of brexit negs in sept after thegerman elections, the shit will hit the fan when WTO trade barriers go up over night, big win win for the other 27 eu countries, the english car industry will collapse overnight with 1 million job losses that even the bbc wont beable to hide on page 9.
support for yes is now linked to how bad the fall out is from brexit, this is the point we will start to see it rise, that is the point that nicola will call foir indyref2
if treeza refuses section 30, nicola can dissolve holyrood and re run the election, with the result being about the section 30.
Robert, unionists need to win the union every time forever… Independence only needs to win once.
The net’s gone quiet. The Tory spin shambles is unravelling. The Record is confused. The silly Tory ploy of trying to turn the council elections into an anti independence rant is backfiring.
disasterous for the EU? i think not
there are no unique goods traded by england to the eu, car showrooms in france will source BMW’s from poland 20% cheaper than the uk BMW’S.
supermarkets in the EU will simplyy source tins of coke, hienz beans etc from elsewhere in the EU
the uk has about 50bn in trade with the EU, The EU about the same with the uk. which means on average each eu country has about 2bn trade with the uk, which they will lose, but they will be compensated by the fact they will hover up the trade in the eu vacated by the uk.
“Do you believe she will hold a referendum that she thinks she will lose?”
It’s no’ difficult. But you know that.
For the FM it is not about winning or losing – it is about ensuring, RIGHTLY, that the people of Scotland get to decide our own future. That is all.
TWICE we voted to remain part of TWO Unions. However, the game was changed from under us and we can now only remain part of ONE union. So we RIGHTLY have to decide which Union we prefer to belong to; which union is in Scotland’s BEST long term interests.
55% in Scotland voted to remain part of UK (& EU) in 2014.
62% in Scotland voted to remain part of EU in 2016.
The incompatible nature of these two outcomes MUST be settled by a third plebiscite. It is the only fair and reasonable way to sort this situation Scotland finds itself.
Michel Barnier to be Scotland’s Lafayette?
Robert Peffers 12:01 pm
… nice rant Robert – but irrelevant, wrong headed and completely mistargeted!
I have no view on Scottish Independence -I’m not bothered either way.
I was merely commenting on whether I think the SG will actually hold a indyref2 – or whether Ms Sturgeon believes she could win it if it was held.
You do not say whether you agree or disagree with me. Please clarify your position.
You do not say whether you agree or disagree with me. Please clarify your position
You’re a hard core tory unionist, is all sensible. You’re clearly a tory activist, currently bashing away like a tory beeb gimp, in England and Scotland, desperately trying to get everyone to vote tory, or, against everyone’s actual real world interests, unless you’re rich.
Well done you sensible.
82% of scotlands “exports” to the UK consist of, electricity, stud beef, petrol, seed potatoes, oil, whisky,gas and Fish
thatcher destroyed scotlands manufacturing base, all that is left is raw materials and goods unique to scotland. if england doesnt want them, they will go hungry and freeze, they will merely be redirected to the eu and elsewhere
rUK’s exports, from behind a WTO tariff barrier, to scotland would increase by 20% in cost over night and since the rUK doesnt produce anything unique and that cant be sourced elsewhere in the EU single market, the rUK trade to scotland and the rest of the eu will dissolve over night.
people in the north of england will travel to gretna, ecclefechan etc to buy cars, smart phones, etc. 20% cheaper. good for the scottish borders economy but a drain on the northern english economy.
to stop these rUK economic tourists and day shoppers, the rUK will need to control them returning to the rUK with their goods. Build a wall if you want dave, but it will be you that pays for it. enjoy
Good luck to Paula Rose and all the other Indy candidates for tomorrow.
A special shout out for our own Gerry Parker standing in my area.
We don’t exist.
Yep a mixture of BBC sky news in the background since about 8 am , not one item ,not one story not even a hint of anything north of Newcastle , the only reason that was mentioned was a piece about mobile phone coverage, we have had Tory-labour-libdem on the election trail , no other party given a mention , eh are we not invited to their General Election ? Just asking .
schrodingers 12:15 pm
When you write this stuff Schrodingers, do you actually believe it?
I will mention just one point (amongst many 1000s of negative outcomes) of a “no deal” outcome.
I believe the German car manufacturers export over 800,000 cars to the UK each year. One in seven of all German cars made end up in the UK.
In a scenario where Germany, as part of the EU, is in a trade war with the UK, how many cars do you think they would sell then?
They would be carrying big tariffs, but even more importantly, brits wouldn’t buy them in the background of a trade war.
The German car makers would lose around 14% of their sales. Production would need to be cut back, jobs would be lost, less workers would be paying income tax, the car makers would be paying less Corporation Tax because they would be making less profit. The German benefits and social services bill would increase as the workers lost their jobs.
All of that would happen schrodingers – and that is just the car makers. Why on earth would the Germans want that outcome?
Good article from Craig Murray.
Zielsdorfs Deported Tomorrow
Someone should ask the Tank if she agrees with this,will her answer be they have only to write their name and tick a box.
“In a scenario where Germany, as part of the EU, is in a trade war with the UK, how many cars do you think they would sell then?”
Just where are UK car buyers going to get their cars from after Nissan, etc. leave? Oh aye, we’ll all be driving aboot in Bentleys and Rollers.
I think we need a new name, a more descriptive name, for no deal hard Brexit.
The true awful nature is not being seen clearly by too many.
So many things will go wrong, the list seems endless, but a few many might not be aware of ..
– the UK has no regulatory bodies for all sorts of areas: drugs, air traffic etc
– Scottish hill farming and crofting will collapse when CAP payments stop. The Highlands and Islands will be transformed.
– travel will be difficult: visas, customs, etc
– up to half a million retired UK citizens live in the EU relying on reciprocal health care which will no longer have it
… and on and on. It must not be allowed to happen to Scotland, it must be stopped, one way or another
“In a scenario where Germany, as part of the EU, is in a trade war with the UK, how many cars do you think they would sell then?
The German car makers would lose around 14% of their sales. Production would need to be cut back, jobs would be lost, less workers would be paying income tax”
This is just more toryboy nonsense sensibledave. German car makers are global manufacturers. Yes they might lose some sales to UK car tariffs but not that much at all. They produce high value high demand products and the UK market will ofcourse pay a tariff for them all because German quality cars have a highly elastic demand.
UK car makers are not UK car makers sensible. Car makers like the Japanese are only here in the UK to get cheap labour and tariff free EU free trade access
DO you you see the difference, for Germany, selling cars in the UK sensible? no.
“They would be carrying big tariffs, but even more importantly, brits wouldn’t buy them in the background of a trade war.”
And the UKOK zone will lose your pointless, moronic, toryboy trade wars.
Albert Herring
12:43 pm
I wrote: “In a scenario where Germany, as part of the EU, is in a trade war with the UK, how many cars do you think they would sell then?”
You wrote “Just where are UK car buyers going to get their cars from after Nissan, etc. leave? Oh aye, we’ll all be driving aboot in Bentleys and Rollers.”
I don’t know whether you are just acting thick or ….
The point is Mr Herring, and you agree with me but you didn’t realise it – the whole market would be stuffed!
Why? What would be the point? Why would the EU embark on a policy of causing themselves enormous financial self harm (that would cost them far more than 50 Billion Euros – just to make a point) …… unless you think that they are more interested in dominating other countries and grinding them into the ground -than doing what is best for their own citizens?
I don’t think that even the tories can keep a lid on this for too much longer.
“It seems obvious to me that the PM is simply lobbying in secret on behalf of her husband, Phillip. But also for HSBC and the London Stock Exchange. And, of course, the Tory Party. Serious questions need to be asked.”
https://www.thecanary.co/2017/05/03/theresa-may-now-implicated-canarys-tory-dirty-money-scandal-video/
Tomorrow’s [Thursday] Local Council Elections explained.
The National newspaper has put up a 5 minute video by Stephen Paton who explains the STV Voting System.
The main message is—-when voting—- WE MUST VOTE ALL candidates in order of preference.
Some,we will be voting FOR THEM and their policies.
Some,we will be voting AGAINST THEM and their policies.
To leave a BAD candidate BLANK gives that candidate an unfair advantage at the Count,so the message is—-that candidate MUST be given a number.
Keep voting until the ballot paper is full !
It’s a must do.
Mr Paton explains—-using moving graphs.
Well worth 5 minutes of our time. 🙂
http://tinyurl.com/k7fo25m
@galamcennalath
Oh shit the uk is so fucked, or brexageddon.
If he’s a ‘remainer’ then the Rev is a Tory…someone call the Sherman Tankers, they’ve left wan ‘o their ain floundering in a bog full o’ their self fouling shite.
OT
Well I hear that without a vote needing to be cast that the SNP have already won a seat in Shetland. GIRUY Yoons. Been walking about with a grin on my face this morning.
@ galamcennalath
BRICKSIT – a hard as fuck BREXIT.
Heedy … Cloud 9!
This is just more toryboy nonsense sensibledave. German car makers are global manufacturers. Yes they might lose some sales to UK car tariffs but not that much at all. They produce high value high demand products and the UK market will ofcourse pay a tariff for them all because German quality cars have a highly elastic demand.
Haha Heedy! Your numptiness knows no bounds!
You wrote “yes they might lose some sales but not that much at all”
… depends whether you think that German Car makers losing 20 Billion a year in sales is “not that much”!!!!
How many jobs exist in Germany to make those 20 billion worth of cars Heedy? How much income tax do those workers pay Heedy? How much Corporation tax will be lost because of the loss of Sales Heedy?
Yes of course this could happen if we end up in a trade war – but what would be the point Heedy when all they have to do is do a deal and carry on as they were??
I think your desire for a brexit failure (because you believe it will help the cause of Scottish independence – But I am not even sure about that Heedy)has completely veiled your ability to think straight (if, indeed, you ever could).
Anyway, we keep going over the same points.
In summary, Scottish Nationalists believe that the likes of Germany and France will initiate a trade war that will result in a self made depression that will lead to millions of people losing their jobs across the whole of the EU as well as the UK and countries going into a depression – just to punish the UK.
I disagree. We will have to wait and see.
@Sinky says: 3 May, 2017 at 9:23 am:
“If a combination of Tories. Labour and Lib Dems don’t win a majority of GE seats in Scotland then Theresa May cannot ignore the democratic choice of the Scottish Parliament to hold another referendum and UK support will dwindle with each passing Brexit set back.”
Ach! Come on, Sinky. Think what you are saying, “If a combination of Tories. Labour and Lib Dems don’t win a majority …
A combination of Tories. Labour and Lib Dems cannot win a majority for the very simple reason they are three parties.
The single party with the most votes becomes the government even if it is only by a single vote. It is only if that party with the most votes refuses to accept to be the government that a coalition gets the chance to form the government.
All this bullshit of the SNP not having a majority is Westminster propaganda. Fact is the local council elections this week will see councillors elected to represent a ward but for forming the council it will be the party with most elected members who will form the council.
Only if they do not have a majority of elected councillors will there be a chance for a coalition council and that is where the Green councillors will get a chance of power, The way the numbers look just now the SNP look likely to oust many Labour candidates and even the Tory Party look likely to lose some councils.
However, the Holyrood and Westminster elections are different kettles of fish. Even with the Holyrood STV system it will be the party with the most elected plus list candidates that will form the government and they just need a single seat more to have a majority.
Whether the Yoons like it or not they are not officially a single party and they can claim what they want if the SNP get one more seat that any other individual party they have a majority government.
Next up is that a combined Yoon claim to have a majority is also pie in the sky because if the SNP plus Greens have a combined vote more than a combined Yoon group then the independence parties have a majority as far as independence matters are concerned.
Westminster is also a different matter, There is no chance that the SNP can win a majority at Westminster. The best they can do is a majority of Scots MPs at Westminster and they get that by having at least one MP more than any other individual other party in Scotland.
Everything else is yoon propaganda. Neither council, Holyrood or Westminster elections are officially concerned with independence. They can yell that they are from the housetops but it won’t make it so.
There are only three types of vote that count as votes for independence.
An advisory referendum that the parliament running it can take or reject the voter’s choice.
A statutory Referendum that the result must be carried out.
Or a call for the electorate to give a Holyrood parliament the go ahead to declare UDI.
It would be very difficult for Westminster to wriggle out of the first option. They couldn’t wriggle out of the second option which is why they will not agree to one.
The third is very, very chancy for both Holyrood and Westminster because it depends upon the World’s powers to recognise or not recognise Scotland as being independent. But look on the bright side. The UK has not exactly made great friends throughout the World throughout history.
They have warred with just about everyone else and subjugated more than a few. I do believe that if the UK were to split up even the USA would not have any use for an independent England as their bestest pal.
@galamcennalath
It’s worse than they think.
Let’s not forget EU citizens of continental origin currently resident in the UK. Some 3m UK wide and approx 190k of those living in Scotland.
People who work and contribute to the tax base across all sectors from tattie picking to high end hi tech research and development. People who buy goods in our shops, pay rent, mortgages bills across the board. Who contribute also to our daily lives and culture. How will that skill shortage, those jobs be filled?
What happens to the UK’s economy when large swathes of these people are no longer there to contribute anything? EU companies who have invested heavily in the UK bringing jobs to communities may also be a consideration (see under Nestle recently). What happens when they contract and leave? What about the pay packets they brought with them?
You see the route of travel?
Economic impact goes well beyond administration and trade deals. Those are just the citizens of EU continental origin. Following the current trend of immigration policy, what of other nationalities currently resident?
Worth thinking about where Scotland is concerned. We can still avoid the worst of this omnishambles. Unfortunately when following the political rhetoric of Westminster in the media, our partners in the UK seem committed (over committed) on the current disastrous trajectory.
FMQs at 13:30hrs
http://www.scottishparliament.tv/Home/Index/9cc36303-8aa1-4b88-92a8-0e86448bc436
@dunderheiditdave
“the whole market would be stuffed”
Not really. The UK will continue to import cars, but they will cost a lot more. UK car buyers will have no alternative but to buy imported cars, as the UK car industry will have up and left.
Even people interested in politics do not know too vote for all candidates in worst preference. The electoral system is farce. More unionist corruption changing the electoral, without a mandate, so they get in. First preference go in the bin and 3rd rate rejects get in again and again. They want to put people off of voting because they feel their votes do not count. The unionists want to destroy democracy in Scotland. They are despicable.
Imagine the unionists manipulating the EU vote, especially in Scotland. It is a disgrace. The Tories committed electoral fraud in 31 constituency. The EU Ref is illegitimate. It should be declared null and void. The Tory crooks should be put in jail.
May is going round the world illegally touting for business for HSBC who illegally fund loans laundered for the Tory Party. More Law breaking.
May illegally has not declared £Billions gained by her husband’s Hedge Fund because of Brexit. More Law breaking. The Tories and their associates have illegally engineered Brexit to line their pockets. The Tories are taking £13 a month from children. Sanctioning and starving vulnerable people.
The Tories in England/Wales will end up paying more to the EU for less rights. Then selling it as a better deal. Propaganda. They are a disgrace. EU membership is the best deal any country can have. It costs nothing compared to the benefits it brings.
Dave, you can’t just run away from my previous stated issue with your assertion that an EU deal will be cobbled together. Do I take it that your sudden silence is an acknowlagement that you are now in agreement that your comment was a nonsense faith based belief… and nothing more?
You can tell when sensibledave is on a losing streak because at that point he declares himself neutral as far as scottish independence is concerned. Ridiculous when he’s try to argue the point that somehow the Conservative party might be able to contrive a mandate not in their manifesto to oppose a referendum already passed by the duly elected parliament in Holyrood.
To remind him, and us, all a Section 30 does is transfer reserved powers from Westminster to Holyrood. It is not required in order that a referendum actually be held and previously the SNP were elected on a majority at Holyrood with a mandate for a consultative referendum.
Now the Conservatives are leading a campaign based not on their own policies but on opposing such a referendum in the council elections. One wonders if they might be planing to abuse whatever powers local councils have to obstruct access to schools and other venues used as poling stations.
They’re also confusing the issue by having an overlapping GE where it seems the intent is to fight on the issue of Brexit in England and Wales and on opposing that second referendum in Scotland. It’ll be interesting to read whatever manifesto they come up with to see exactly how they phrase that as a commitment.
One thing to note is the tell from them when they say they will oppose it every step of the way. Which implies they know that they can’t prevent it. However they will attempt to delay it as much as possible.
Macart says:
3 May, 2017 at 1:20 pm
@galamcennalath
It’s worse than they think….
I agree. Economic Brexit would be bad enough, but Brexit was not an economic strategy nor did it have an economic objective. It was driven by contrived hatred and prejudice, plus anti immigration and xenophobic rhetoric.
Bad enough being an idiot, but in the eyes of the world, the UK is not just an idiot but a nasty and bigoted idiot which has made itself a laughing stock.
Cue Theresa May saying she’s going to be difficult and play hard ball over Brexit negotiations. But I rather suspect the 27 other Nations will be too busy planning public holidays and street parties to even notice.
@sensibledave says: 3 May, 2017 at 12:19 pm:
“I have no view on Scottish Independence -I’m not bothered either way.”
Yes! sensibledave, I believe most here are well avare you have no views.
“I was merely commenting on whether I think the SG will actually hold a indyref2 – or whether Ms Sturgeon believes she could win it if it was held.”
Indeed we also mainly realise you often think totally misinformed thing that are not in any way the actuality of Scotland, Scots or Scottish politics.
“You do not say whether you agree or disagree with me. Please clarify your position.”
Unlike yourself, sensibledave, I would not resume to second guess the most able political figure in United Kingdom politics at this point in European history.
If indeed I express an opinion it will be clear it is my personal take on what a situation is. If you have actually read my opinions you would be aware that from the instant that David Cameron spoke of withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the EU I immediately expressed my opinion that it was a bluff on his part and was doomed to failure.
I also explained, in my opinion, just why it was doomed to be a failure. You would also know I was, on present evidence, 100% correct.
There is absolutely no way the EU will ever allow any deals on the several most basic EU reasons to exist.
To do so would destroy the EU’s raison d’être. If you lose your reason to exist you cease to exist and that makes, “Brexit”, (a stupid misnomer), certain to be hard, indeed it means very, very, hard and a 27 to 1 unequal certainty.
Not to mention that Britain won’t be going anywhere. First because Westminster does not govern Britain.
Second because the UK is not a member country but a member, bipartite, United Kingdom and one of its partners does not wish to leave the EU and EU rules, not Westminster rules, will take precedence.
“Economic Brexit would be bad enough, but Brexit was not an economic strategy nor did it have an economic objective. It was driven by contrived hatred and prejudice, plus anti immigration and xenophobic rhetoric.”
Exactly .. I quoted just to repeat your statement Breeks.
@sensibledave
Don’t have time to go through all that, first I am not Robert Peffers, if you want to argue with him, then argue with him. Second, the rest of your posting I totally disagree with.
@Undeadshaun says: 3 May, 2017 at 1:01 pm:
“Oh shit the uk is so fucked, or brexageddon”
Perhaps better described as about to be, “brexicuted”?
@Breeks
What they’ve unleashed and the damage it has and will cause, can’t be measured Breeks.
It’s bad now and it’s going to get a LOT worse.
Brian McHugh @ 13:43,
I have observed, Brian, that the insensible one never responds when faced with critical issues he can’t defend. Ducks and dives. Seeks instead futile long-winded arguments with posters who are misguided enough to respond to him at length.
He’s living in a rose-tinted BritNat bubble, the best of all possible worlds, in which the entire globe still defers to his wonderful Brittanica. Soon enough though his pretty bubble is going to burst. It’s not going to be his imagined Dunkirk re-enactment with cucumber sandwiches on the greensward for afternoon tea, it’s going to be Suez redux, in which his precious little Brexittania is ingloriously humbled by those with the real power.
But when his self-satisfied edifice crumbles, will he have the grace to return here and apologise? I doubt it.
I’m just surprised he even bothers so much to appear here at all. He is to be pitied, not entertained.
The thing that worries me most is May saying she intends to be a “Bloody difficult woman”.
Seriously, that is admitting defeat before even starting negotiations, it’s like saying “I know the accident was my fault, but I’m going to be bloody difficult when you’re making your claim”.
It’s a loser’s statement, and very weak. So much for “Strong and Stable”, her horse has already bolted.
@Yesindyref2
Pretty much and again I believe it’s worse than the public are being led to believe.
yesindyref2 @ 15:23,
That’s well-observed. Like Violet-Elizabeth Bott in the wonderful “William” stories, her strategy is merely “to thkweam and thkweam till I’m thick” to get her way.
The only thing in her favour is that the pusillanimous Corbyn would be even weaker in negotiations with the EU27. Which is why May wants to fight the election solely on those grounds.
Poor Rude Gal, she has far sterner stuff to contend with. And for all her outrageous alt-truths and wonky graphs, won’t end up anywhere near as many MPs as her opponent. So much for her “no-ref” mandate.
Brian McHugh 1:43 pm
You wrote: “Do I take it that your sudden silence is an acknowlagement that you are now in agreement that your comment was a nonsense faith based belief… and nothing more?
….. er no, you can take it that I needed some coffee, and supplies for tonight’s culinary extravaganza (spag bog), oh, and some black shoe polish. I think you are over-reaching a tad Mr McHugh … I just went shopping! But I am glad you missed me.
On the generality of your points, together with some people here (but not those that wait to be told what to think from above), we can agree that none of us can “know” the future.
The interesting thing is to try and “best guess”, based upon your own personal reading of the situation. It never ceases to amaze me that here on Wings there is a 100% agreement that the MSM are a bunch of lying, schemeing, Unionist, self serving, jock oppressors intent on grinding the Nationalists into the ground and just lie about everything – until there is something for the Nationalists to hang on to – and then they are the unimpeachable sources of “the truth”.
With respect to a Brexit deal (I voted Remain), it is my own personal judgement that in the end a deal will be done. I understand you disagree. You believe that the EU will take us into a worldwide depression just to prove a point. I, of course may be wrong (but it doesn’t happen very often).
Most contributors here on Wings need and want things to go bad for the UK because they believe that will help their case for Scottish Independence. As a result, in my humble opinion, they lose the ability to rationally assess events. They want and need the UK and is people to feel discomfiture. They want and need the people of the UK to suffer and for things to turn out badly for us – for their own narrow, selfish reasons.
That is fine, its a free country and all that.
You accuse me of beiing a sooth sayer when I express an opinion at to what I think will happen – yet you do not challenge any other contributor on their divine “we’re all doomed” insights!
A couple of weeks ago, there was much crowing on here that Ms Sturgeon held all of the cards and the useless, thick, Ms May had been outmanouvered by the ever fragrant Ms Sturgeon and indyref2 would be held and won at a canter.
I cautioned not to underestimate your political opponents.
A few weeks later, and we face a an upcoming GE where realistically (and this is in no way a criticism) the only way for the SNP share of the popular vote to go is down. Ms Sturgeon doesn’t know whether to argue that the results of the forthcoming GE in Scotland does, or doesn’t, demonstrate the underlying desire of the Scottish people for indyref2. Regardless of whatever she says, we all know what we will be able to read from the results.
At the same time it seems pretty much agreed that Ms May is likely to increase her majority and her personal mandate. So, in just a few weeks, we have seen the fortunes/position/potential future of various leading politicians change dramatically.
My reading of Ms Sturgeon’s position has been stated previously in other threads and I persona;ly doubt she will survive as leader of the SNP for longer than two years. The result of the GE may even shorten her tenure dramatically if she judges that she would end up being the First Minister of a Scotland in the UK and out of the EU.
Remember, all politicians are liars. We just have to choose the one we believe will do the least damage. As soon as Ms Sturgeon feels that indyref2 cannot be won before Brexit – she will be off to a cosy job with an enormous salary somewhere before you can say say jock robinson.
I’d go for Brextioned
As in the U.K. is going to be Brextioned.
Or from what I’m hearing T May will get herself Brexioned in a secure unit pretty soon judging by her ‘tinfoil hat’ Infamy, infamy the EUs got it infamy speech.
Still makes a change from it being Putin and the Russians interfering 🙂
Brexitania or Brexitanic. Doesn’t matter if it’s torpedoes or an iceberg it’s still going down.
@Sensibledave,
There speaks a man who knows nothing about the woman. When Ms Sturgeon was but a teenager she stood on a barrow in the Bannockburn field talking about a free scotland. It is who she is.
I do not think you can hold or understand that unwavering passion because you cannot identify it in others. She will die fighting for Scotland to be free no matter what she does or where she is.
90% of cars made in the uk are exported, mainly to the eu. other countries in the eu make cars too, eg poland, these factories will merely increase production to satisfy the increased demand by eu car salesmen, the punters wont know the difference between a bmw made in poland versus one made in the uk. why would the car salesmen try and sell exactly the same car in the eu which was 20% more expensive?
bmw wont lose these sales, just move the location of where they are built?
the 10% of cars built here for the home market may continue to be built here, but since 70% of car parts used in the uk car industry come from the eu, then it would still mean closing uk car manufacturers and importing the completed item from the eu, even with a 10% import tariff slapped the cars would still be cheaper.
this isnt just for german cars, it is for all of them, eg, this is toyota ops in the eu
Manufacturing Centres
Toyota Motor Manufacturing (UK) Ltd.
Toyota Motor Manufacturing France S.A.S.
Toyota Motor Manufacturing Poland Sp. z o.o.
Toyota Motor Industries Poland Sp. z o.o.
Toyota Caetano Portugal SA
Toyota Motor Manufacturing Turkey
Toyota Peugeot Citroën Automobile Czech
Toyota Motor Manufacturing Russia
Parts Logistics Centres
Toyota Parts Centre Europe – Diest, Belgium
Toyota Parts Centre South of France – Le Pouzin, France
Toyota Parts Centre Denmark – Middelfart, Denmark
Toyota Parts Centre Norway – Drammen, Norway
Toyota Parts Centre Austria – Vienna, Austria
Toyota Parts Centre Finland – Vantaa, Finland
Toyota Parts Centre Spain – Madrid, Spain
Toyota Parts Centre Great Britain – Lutterworth, England
Toyota Parts Centre Deutschland – Köln, Germany
Toyota Parts Centre Ireland – Dublin, Ireland
Toyota Parts Centre Poland – Warsaw, Poland
Toyota Parts Centre Portugal – Porto, Portugal
Toyota Parts Centre Greece – Athens, Greece
Toyota Parts Centre Czech Republic – Krupka, Czech Republic
Vehicle Logistics Centres
Zeebrugge Vehicle Logistics Centre – Zeebrugge, Belgium
Grimsby and Derby Vehicle Logistics Centre – Grimsby and Derby, England
Valenciennes Vehicle Logistics Centre – Valenciennes, France
Malmö Vehicle Logistics Centre – Malmö, Sweden
Hanko Vehicle Logistics Centre – Hanko, Finland
Adapazari Vehicle Logistics Centre – Adapazari, Turkey
Kolin Vehicle Logistics Centre – Kolin, Czech Republic
Paldiski Vehicle Logistics Centre – Paldiski, Estonia
Sagunto Vehicle Logistics Centre – Sagunto, Spain
it isnt a trade war, nor is it personal, its just business dave
Robert J. Sutherland at 3:11 pm
You wrote “He’s living in a rose-tinted BritNat bubble, the best of all possible worlds, in which the entire globe still defers to his wonderful Brittanica. Soon enough though his pretty bubble is going to burst. It’s not going to be his imagined Dunkirk re-enactment with cucumber sandwiches on the greensward for afternoon tea, it’s going to be Suez redux, in which his precious little Brexittania is ingloriously humbled by those with the real power.”
In Chuchillian Tones I respond “Nevah, in the field of human blogging, has one man cast so many lazy stereotypes in one small paragraph!
Get a grip Mr Sutherland, your nationalistic antipathy is showing there Sir! You appear to desperately want everyone in the UK, other than about 1.5m SNP voters, to suffer some ill fate because you are unable to convince a few hundred thousand other SCots that yours is the only way forward. Pathetic, churlish and very rude Robert – and increasingly typical sadly.
sensibledave @ 17:08,
In the words of a great song, “Time will do the talking”. That’s all I’ll say to you, Mr. Bean.
Find something more productive to do with your time.
Dave, quoted from you in your last response;”we can agree that none of us can “know” the future.”
…so are you now going to retract your previous statement that, paraphrase;’an EU deal will be cobbled together’?
Are you going to admit that your assertion is nonsense… or are you just going to continue to waffle on and try to avoid the argument?
…You made the claim; and I can do this all day.
@sensibledave “Most contributors here on Wings need and want things to go bad for the UK”
Enough of your lying generalisations, GTF.
No.
Independence supporters do NOT want things to go bad for the UK because:
1). We’re still unfortunately in it, so get dragged wodn with the rest of the UK
2). When we’re Independent a weak rUK economy is not good for Scotland because we want to sell them stuff, and if they ahe no money, they won’ be able to afford it.
@Robert J. Sutherland
Yes, the Tories are using “Weak Corbyn” as an attack. I see it the other way. Negotiations are better carried out with mutual respect, but also goodwill. It’s not constant confrontation will get the best deal, it puts backs up.
And as far as the EU-27 is concerned, their main interest must be that EU-27 itself, but also all the trade agreements it has with most countries in the world. From that point of view, any agreement must be visibly fair. Corbyn is a bot of an idiot, but a likeable one. Brown for instance did quite well with the EU because they like him, whereas for some reason they didn’t like Cameron.
But May is putting their backs up like there’s no tomorrow, and the thing is, threatening to walk away from the EU debt is not on – same as it wouldn’t be for us with the share of the UK debt. What she could say is “No share of assets, no share of debt”, and that would be fair enough. But her and her idiots aren’t saying that.
Which would make the UK visibly a pariah in the eyes of the rest of the world, and there would be absolutely no need for the EU-27 to be visibly reasonable, or fair in any way.
I think Corbyn would actually be better in the Brexit negotiaions than May, in fact, far better.
@sensibledave
3). The people of the rUK will be our friends, neighbours and family. No sure where you fit into that all the same.
@Yesindyref2
Did I mention it’s worse than people are being led to believe?
See under the PMs Downing street meltdown/statement.
As far as QED moments go? That’s what I call service. 🙂
@sesnibledave for the last post
“living in a rose-tinted BritNat bubble”
All your postings have proben that to be true. You think all the UK has to do is demand something and eh voila, it happens, and the EU-27 fall all over themselves because hey, this is the UK, Rule Britannia, we must fall to our knees.
No, the EU-27 represent at least 8 times the population and GDP of the UK, and their primary concern is themselves, not the UK. And because of their dealings with EFTA, Canada, Australia, and many other countries where they have specific trade deals, they are not going to put that at jeapordy because, hey, it;s the all-powerful and wonderful UK.
The UK is a small group of islands off the coas of mainland Europe, with a population of 65 million, compared with an EU-27 population of 450 million, and a world population of 7 billion. Put things in perspective, rather than viewing then through your rose-tinted Britnat glasses.
@Macart
Yes, I read that. For the benefit of Theresa May there IS no purdah in the EU-27 over the UK elections. For them, business continues as normal, as it must do. And since she had her dinner at Downing Street for them she was doing business, and the EU-27 is entitled to respond if it wants.
She’s showing just how weak she is “please don’t hurt me”.
I used to think the UK would do OK out of the EU, but it needs people of vision and with diplomatic skills. The Tory Government has neither. They’re all complete blithering self-obsessed idiots.
#toriesout
yesindyref2 @ 17:34,
You could be right. He may be a bit soft, but Corbyn is a reasonable sort of fellow, so he would probably get on fine with the continentals like Broon did. From the EU27 point of view – and also from the rUK point of view, for that matter – anything would be a plus instead of Mayhem.
But Corbyn would still take us all out anyway, with no exceptions for Scotland. We have to be sacrificed for the Greater Good, which is the standing of Labour in the north of England.
That’s what Kezia (who she? =grin=) refuses to admit. Self-immolating her party’s interest north of the border because BLiS is totally owned by London HQ, which has other priorities entirely.
No diff from the Tories there, then.
Of course they will demand what they want from Europe. Don’t you know old chap that they are Brexceptional. Their undoing, now well underway, has been in the ignorance and arrogance that they have deployed around the world to the cost of many lives. Shame really lots of nice folk in England – but everything about their establishment stinks!
Those aren’t debts the EU are talking about. They’re commitments made with the consent of the UK and some that might never have been made without the UK being a member of the EU.
Greg Clark @ 50/1…..mmmmnn
#robotwars
I’m going to bet my house on that fact that The Sun jounalist hasn’t even read the the actual statement from the FM.
I’m betting The Sun have bases their article on another paper’s article, and they’ve enter the realms of ‘Chinese whispers’ being peddled as NEWS; Truth; Truthiness; Who cares; Whatever; It’ll sell