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Vile abuse and harmless banter

Posted on October 22, 2015 by

In that order, we presume.

iainmartin

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  1. 22 10 15 23:47

    Vile abuse and harmless banter | Speymouth

298 to “Vile abuse and harmless banter”

  1. Lesley-Anne says:

    Hmm.

    So according to numpty Pumpty Martin Sheffield is now, apparently, in S******d. I wonder how this information has gone down in Sheffield. 😀

  2. R-type Grunt says:

    Iain Martin (who?) is a wanker.

  3. Ali Watson says:

    What a lack of education some people portray on online.
    Would these comments be shared face to face in a civil society , I doubt it , come on grow a pair

  4. This behaviour is known as “projection”; a habit of accusing others of doing something despite being a product of the person making the accusation.

    It is one of many types of behaviour that are often associated with group-think & narcissism, often quite destructive if not recognised & accommodated for.

    The expression manifests itself when someone senses a need to exert influence because they are no longer in a position of superior authority.

    It is therefore commonly seen amongst newspaper editors who recognise that they no longer are in control of news & information & thus see Wings & other social media sites as a threat to themselves & the power base to which they have traditionally felt an affinity.

    I do enjoy watching the editors of newspapers squirm; they really do deserve to be nothing more than curious reference material filed away in a cabinet at the Mitchell Library.

    Fuck them.

  5. Gillian_Ruglonian says:

    Godwins Law, or SNP BAAAADDDD

  6. Seepy says:

    One day, I hope i can write as good as what Iain Martin and Kenneth Roy does:

    “As Kenneth Roy – a man of the left and a great writer – explained in his latest piece for the Scottish Review, those in what terms itself the Nationalist movement now seem ?to operate on the basis that if someone is not completely for the SNP and independence then they must be completely against.”

  7. Itchybiscuit says:

    I don’t trust the meeja these days so I went online and Googled ‘hypocrisy’.

    I was right.

  8. galamcennalath says:

    So to whom exactly is this Iain Martin targeting the shite he writes?

    He has an audience somewhere which wants to read this?

    Another day, another muck spreader escaped from the not so funny farm.

  9. James Anderson says:

    O/T James Landale, Beeb lead political reporter’s closing gambit on his Westminster coverage of EVEL for BBC News at Ten: quote, “…so England has as stronger voice, the SNP has another grievance”. They ain’t even trying to conceal it anymore – hidden in plain sight minus the hidden bit.

  10. Jim says:

    Flipper likened Salmond to Kim Jong-il

    Denis Macshane compared Salmond to Slobodan Milosevic.

    Jeremy Paxman compared Salmond to robert mugabe.

    “Journalists and their bosses are seriously compared to the henchmen of mass-murdering tyrants”

    Oh the inhumanity of it all. Rotten SNP scoundrels.

  11. Barbara McKenzie says:

    In the case of the BBC, doesn’t it do the work of war criminals? You can actually spell out a case, in detail, for the SNP councillor, that *should* stand up in court. But in any case Goebbels is often used very loosely to describe any propagandist.

    However I’m not sure that ‘Nuremberg’ is ever used so flippantly. And does any one know exactly what aspect of the SNP rally is supposed to resemble the Nuremberg rallies? Or are all rallies by their nature sinister?

    Maybe Martin is referring to the ridiculous but popular claim that Scotland is a one-party state, a term I thought applied only to countries with a one-party constitution, and not to a region (sorry, but Scotland is just that constitutionally) where a majority support one party. Do we have one-party boroughs too, one-party village councils?

  12. donald anderson says:

    Graham Harris Graham says:
    22 October, 2015 at 10:20 pm

    “This behaviour is known as “projection”; a habit of accusing others of doing something despite being a product of the person making the accusation.
    It is one of many types of behaviour that are often associated with group-think & narcissism, often quite destructive if not recognised & accommodated for. The expression manifests itself when someone senses a need to exert influence because they are no longer in a position of superior authority.”

    In the US it is known as “dolly shotting”. That is, putting words in your opponents mouth and replying to it. Putting up your own dollies and knocking them down. Britain believes that they are the world’s masters of “diplomacy”, in other words porky pie merchants.

  13. One_Scot says:

    It is getting to the stage that they believe there is no limit to how shit they can treat Scotland, as they’re convinced that no matter what they do to us we don’t have the balls to tell them where to go.

  14. Capella says:

    Well Goebbels was a journalist and PR consultant. Not with Carlton obviously. It was Freud’s nephew, Ernest Bernays, who changed the name of the black art from “propaganda” to “Pubic Relations”. Once he got to America it seemed politic to conceal the embarrassing heritage from WW1. Modern British journalists are only continuing a long standing tradition.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays

  15. Ian Kirkwood says:

    I am, along with many others, waiting on the SNP and the SG reaction to the quite obvious concerted actions of the unionist establishment in the build up to the Scottish elections. If they are not careful in their strategy and tactics, there may be a nasty surprise outcome come May.
    People deserve a response to the unionist drive.

  16. Iain More says:

    I think it is entirely fair to compare Brit Nat Press and Media hacks to the henchmen of mass murdering tyrants. How many of them supported Tory Bliar for one. Those same hacks are softening us up in the whole of the UK for another war as well.

    The same hacks will no doubt be telling us all that it is also right that we have to suffer English Votes for Scottish Laws. Once they get briefed by Cameron and the pig efffers club that is.

  17. Free Scotland says:

    Okay, so people like Iain Martin are masterful in the production of keech. But we control the direction of the fan.

  18. Lesley-Anne says:

    Looks like Angus B MacNeil has secured a 10 minute bill in November. Like most 10 minute bills it probably won’t get far.

    Angus B MacNeil MP ?@AngusMacNeilSNP 3h3 hours ago

    My “10min Rule Bill” in Nov on #ScotsVotes4ScotsLaws will be interesting now. Return powers if ScotParl & Gov + ScotsMPs agree. #TripleLock

  19. heedtracker says:

    A n other right wing nut job. Bloody hell how many of them are there out there. This goes all the way to the head right wing nut job. No not

    https://twitter.com/ProfTomkins?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

    This right wing nut job

    https://twitter.com/alexmassie

    He’s actually quite scary but even so.

  20. ClanDonald says:

    Iain Martin also stated in that article:

    “Even the BBC Weather map is biased against Scotland, it was claimed. When it was pointed out that Scotland’s land mass is smaller than England’s this was reportedly disputed by members of the audience. Wilder Nationalists now do not even accept basic facts of geography if they conflict with their prejudices.”

    Here is what Iain Martin is insisting is an accurate geographical portrayal of Scotland:

    http://www.imgur.com/ViciwdF

    What a self-important arse he is.

  21. Capella says:

    “Bernays had a particular gift for the marketing strategy called the “tie-up” or “tie-in”. In this strategy, one venue, opportunity, or occasion for promoting a consumer product, for example, radio advertising, is linked to another, say, newspaper advertising, and even, at times, to a third, say a department store exhibition salesroom featuring the item, and possibly even a fourth, such as an important holiday, for example Thrift Week.”
    https://archive.is/JH5Uu

    Substitute, for example, a newspaper article, linked to a radio news item, linked to a FMQ and possible also a Daily Politics or Great Debate or Newsnight question. Voila – the “tie in”.

    Blow for Sturgeon!

  22. Capella says:

    Well England is a bit bigger in terms of land sq miles. From Wikipedia:
    Scotland Area Land 77,933 km2 30,090 sq mi
    England Area Land 130,279 km2 50,301 sq mi

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6RVspFAWAk

    So what?

  23. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    All of which goes to support my contention that we have to raise the bar and start campaigning on our own issues and fighting the battles we can win on grounds we chose ourselves.

    These are not the SNP record in Government, no matter how fine that might be because it will not be portrayed as anything other than a disaster, but the fact that Scotland is an ancient nation with a clever population and huge natural resources which can do much better if it is in control of its own future.

    If we establish that we are self supporting with a potentially very successful future we win the next referendum. That is all

  24. HandandShrimp says:

    Who is this chap again?

  25. Geoff Huijer says:

    I find the likes of Iain Martin & Alex Massie to be particularly offensive – their anti-Scottish, pro-British diatribes are despicable peppered as they are with outright untruths and spin. They have nothing positive to say about anything.

    They also seem to attempt to disguise their own self-loathing with a pseudo superiority complex and are only ‘satisfied’ whilst talking Scotland and her people down.

    As said above, ‘projection’ pretty much nails it.

  26. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    @Capella,

    I had a similar discussion with one of our senior campaigners this evening.

    We always thought the better together stuff was coordinated (badly) but we reckoned this has gone to a higher level altogether.

    High level coordination between the BBC, Right Wing MSM in England, MSM in Scotland, Labour and Tory Parties in order to Stop the SNP wining a majority in SE16.

    This is an all out political attack to discredit the democratically elected Scottish Government and will only ramp up owner the coming months.

    However, on the plus side his canvassing results show folk are not buying it – even die hard labour folk are now getting sick of this onslaught and turning SNP.

    SNP1.
    SNP2.

  27. West_Lothian_Questioner says:

    “mass murdering tyrants….” aye… seems about right…

  28. R says:

    @galamcennalath says: 22 October, 2015 at 10:25 pm:

    ” … So to whom exactly is this Iain Martin targeting the shite he writes

    I dunnow, galamcennalath, but he sure as hell reminds me of that old comic sea-side postcard. The big fat lady is saying to her big fat lady friend, (as they look at a great big fat elephant), “Just ignore it, Mabelle and it’ll go away”.

  29. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    Anybody heard from Gordon Brown today?

    Thought not.

  30. heedtracker says:

    Daily Heil right wing nut job Quentin Letts currently summing up right wing nut job Andrew Neil’s BBC Politics show but somehow they probably wont be all toryboy light hearted over EVEL, or even mention it. Toryboys, if stuff what you do might be a tad dodgy, don’t mention it. China in, tax credits out, steel jobs out, EVEL didnt happen right.

  31. Andrew McLean says:

    I take it this chap Ian has never read the Scotsman in some time, I was repeatedly called a Nazi, but in one point he is correct the use, more correctly abuse of the holocaust is unacceptable! And should stop, nether we or the unionists are Nazi, OK some no supporters like giving the Nazi salute but they are mentally challenged and should be pitted! Spelling is correct !

    Another point it’s a bit of a stretch to say Harry Potter is great literature, it’s not. But if he thinks it is that probably explains a lot that is wrong with his understanding of politics in Scotland today!

  32. Capella says:

    @ Hoss
    The antidote seems to be exposing the lies as widely as possible. This site is doing a fantastic job of shining the light on the nefarious methods of the PR merchants. Or “journalists” as they are commonly known. No wonder Stu is so unpopular with the corporate media.

  33. HandandShrimp says:

    I wonder party conference had snipers on the roofs and security everywhere?

    I wonder which was friendly and open and required next to no security?

  34. Capella says:

    Just noticed a Freudian slip of my own at 10.46. “Pubic Relations” should, of course, have been “Public Relations” Apologies to Ernest Bernays!

  35. Lanarkist says:

    I was at that meeting, was Ian?

    The quote was about the weather map showing Scotland to be much smaller than it actually was.

    The speaker said it was nearly the same size, about a half of the country!

    Someone else immediately spoke out that it was about a third of the land mass and although the rest of the audience caught tt the point was ignored by the panel, and it seems the media.

    It was a symbolic example, easily misinterpreted by the Met. corp. Media.

    The Councillor was misquoted as well. He was making a point that the propagandist most vilified by the British State recognised the brilliance in the dark arts that the BBC portrayed.

    They are distracting from all the main questions.

    The Lecturer just after asked about two reports on bias, one from Prof Robertson and one , a PhD Thesis from Wales?

    I suggested opening BTL comments to engender communications and a conversation between the BBC and Scotland. Ignored.

    If we engage with the Media, at all, on any level, it seems to be tailored to fit the establishment support or attack strategy.

    Close down Democracy, especially in Scotland.

  36. Lanarkist says:

    Handandshrimp,

    Those with the power hold the tower, those with the support rock the Fort!

  37. yesindyref2 says:

    “Correction: Sorry, SNP rally not being held in Sheffield. It’s actually being held in Nuremberg”

    I’d never heard of the guy so looked him up.

    reporter for the Sunday Times Scotland (1993–97), political editor of Scotland on Sunday (1997–2000), political editor of The Scotsman (2000–01), deputy editor of Scotland on Sunday (2001), editor of The Scotsman (2001–04), editor of Scotland on Sunday (2004–06), deputy editor of the Sunday Telegraph (2006), and head of comment for the Telegraph Media Group (2008–09).

    From 2009 to 2011 Deputy Editor of the Wall Street Journal Europe, for which he wrote a blog on politics. For a short time he moved to the Daily Mail newspaper in 2011 to write a weekly political column. He now blogs for the Telegraph and contributes a weekly column to The Sunday Telegraph.

    Ah, I also see he’s editor for the far right CapX, say no more. Centre for Policy Studies indeed.

    Some people rise up in life, go on to better things, follow their ideals and their dreams. Some people descend to the gutter.

  38. Proud Cybernat says:

    O/T

    Andrew Neil thoroughly debunked (the video):

    http://tinyurl.com/pmce9g7

    Spread it far, spread it wide.

  39. CameronB Brodie says:

    I got banned from NewsNet for suggesting we hire the Assembly Rooms during the Festival, so we can hold an award ceremony from the Scottish themed meeja.

    I don’t think NNS liked my suggestion of awarding the Goebbels Meddle and the von Ribbentrop Prize. Bummer.

    A tad insensitive?

    P.S. I think there is compelling evidence that would convict the BBC of war crimes, most commonly attributed to ‘problems with management’.

  40. ArtyHetty says:

    Re Andrew Mclean @12.10

    Actually the unionists, at least some, are starting to resemble the far right. The media, and establishment attack on the SNP, our democratically elected government, seems to be stepping up apace. They need to portray the SNP as a rogue regime in order to justify any means they may have to deploy in order to stop an SNP majority in 2016.

    Ok I have watched a few episodes of ‘Stargate’, but I am seriously concerned about the anti Scotland thing going on South of the border. We are a serious threat to westmonsters agenda.

    Some might even think a takeover of Holyrood would be justified, stranger things have happened!

    Ok night all, before I really get carried away. :))

  41. yesindyref2 says:

    @ArtyHetty
    Are you seriously suggesting that some politicians in Westminster have been taken over by the Goa’uld? I guess it would explain a lot! Which one do you think is Anubis, or Apophis? Can they be saved?

  42. Chic McGregor says:

    @R-type
    “Iain Martin (who?) is a wanker.”

    Given his twitter post, that us a pretty amazing presumption that he could find his dick.

  43. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Proud Cybernat (1.12) –

    🙂

    Splendid stuff. Well done indeed – looking forward to more.

  44. mealer says:

    The unionists Orange Order rallies are much more like Nuremberg.Silly Billys.

  45. Macart says:

    @Yesindyref2

    12.48am

    That’s quite a CV right enough.

    So what you’re saying is he’s a pig ignorant, thoughtless erse then.

  46. Camz says:

    @Graham Harris

    “This behaviour is known as “projection”; a habit of accusing others of doing something despite being a product of the person making the accusation.”

    If the man said that in front of me, I would tell him he’s being an arse. That’s the behavior, as far as I can see. 🙂

  47. yesindyref2 says:

    @Macart
    EVEL is not the main item on the BBC news, and it’s not the main item of news (online) on the Herald, Scotsman or Record.

    Just goes to show how important Parliamentary democracy is to them 🙁

  48. Macart says:

    I suspected that might be the case dads.

    Our representation and electorate get made into second class citizens and the response from our fourth estate is…

    … predictable.

    Our heroes. 🙁

  49. john king says:

    Now we know how the red Indians felt

  50. Derek Louden says:

    Er, I dunno how to put this. Iain Martin is the author of a book which tells the story of the rise and fall of RBS. “Making it Happen, Fred Goodwin, RBS and the men who blew up the British Economy.” He wasn’t a total bampot when he wrote that. Indeed its quite good. I don’t think this Councillor helped us any by comparing the BBC to Goebbels. If we’re going to win we’ll need their neutrality at worst. Who’d be neutral after that? I’ve read this column from top to bottom. If Iain Martin does the same how many of you think he’ll change his mind and think we’re right after all? No chance. We reacted by behaving exactly as he expected. Until we stop treating everyone who disagrees with us as a bawbag needing a kicking it is difficult to see how we get from 45% to 60%. Get motivated by Iain Martin but don’t get angry.

  51. caz-m says:

    Good morning my fellow Scots, we are now officially,

    “Second Class Citizens”.

  52. caz-m says:

    With EVEL becoming law, does this mean that the Scottish Tory MP, David Mundell, could NEVER become the UK Prime Minister?

    If he can’t become Prime Minister, has anybody told him yet.

    And what about our poor wee Scottish Labour MP, Ian Murray, he had high hopes of high office. All those years of crawling, gone in an instance.

    Better Together?

  53. Another Union Dividend says:

    Like Peter Wishart’s proposal to introduce a Bill whereby we get Scots Votes For Scots Laws which will return / devolve powers if a majority of Scots MPs vote for any measure in UK Parliament and is then ratified by the Scottish Parliament.

    Contrary to English Nationalist complaints, Scottish MPs do not have a vote on devolved matters but the unelected Lady Mone of Mayfair now has more say on English matters that may affect Sotland, such as student tuition fees for Scots students at English Unis, than the 59 elected Scottish MPs.

    Evil EVEL was introduced by David Cameron as a response to Scotland voting NO to self determination despite knowing that until then SNP MPs operating a self denying order on purely English Bills, but it also shafts the Tory Better Together allies Labour for good as they can never again govern by unless they win a majority of English seats which is very unlikely particularly when the proposed boundary changes will notionally deprive Labour of 20 plus seats in England.

    But here’s what Labour’s main MP on EVEL debate Chris Bryant MP said in Westminster

    EVEL could give “Scots another cause for grievance. And God knows they’ve never needed a cause for grievance”

    Broad shoulders and all that, Better Together eh? Aye Right.

    No wonder most voters think that the Labour Party is now irrelevant in Scotland.

    As Tommy Sheppard MP for Edinburgh East says:
    The proposals themselves involve an additional consent stage where English MPs will have to meet and give their consent. Effectively this means we get asked to step outside whilst they have a discussion. But crucially, at this stage English MPs could kill a proposal stone dead and we would get no further debate on the matter. When I pointed this out, quoting the proposed clause (84 N (4) if you can be bothered) you could see Tory MPs scouring the order paper to check. I genuinely think many of them did not realise this.

    http://tommysheppardmp.scot/index.php/my-blogs/entry/made-some-history-not-in-a-good-way

  54. manandboy says:

    Not a word about EVEL on the BBC website this morning. How’s that for Public Service Broadcasting.

    The BBC – Scotland’s public enemy No 2.

  55. Truth says:

    I’ve no idea who this guy is and he lost me at the Sheffield reference.

    Maybe that’s what comes of not watching TV for five years.

    I don’t think I’m missing out.

  56. Training Day says:

    With the introduction of EVEL, is this an opportune moment to recall the fragrant Rowling’s comment that, with a No vote, we would ensure that we were never in a stronger position to call the shots on the constitution?

    Perhaps she’s unavailable for comment as she’s done as was suggested to her earlier in the week.

  57. Another Union Dividend says:

    EVEL being discussed on Radio Scotland at 9 a.m.

    Call 0500 92 95 00. Text 80295.

    Email morningcallscotland [at] bbc [dot] co [dot] uk

  58. manandboy says:

    Daily Record online – not a word about EVEL.
    Cameron’s been busy making sure his State Propaganda machine is doing it’s job by keeping the 2 million No voters in the dark, while the Tories plunge the knife into Scotland’s back.

    Welcome to the new North Korea.

  59. galamcennalath says:

    EVEL, statements from ..

    Federal Brown, Flipper Darling, Curran, the Alexander non twins, JKR …. and dozens of others. Nothing.

    They had plenty to say 18 months ago. Silence now. Are they proud of their contributions?

  60. One_Scot says:

    To be fair Scottish MPs at Westminster have always been Second Class, the only difference now is it’s official.

  61. One_Scot says:

    See when they told us that we are ‘Better Together’, I did not realise they only meant from England’s point of view.

  62. Andrew McLean says:

    John King at 6:30

    Just a point they are native americans, or first peoples.

    when we have a national anthem that once contained and in some minds still do the lines “and rebellious Scots to crush” they have to quote “Our music teacher makes us sing patriotic songs with lyrics like, ‘pilgrims’ pride; land where my fathers died; let freedom ring.’ This is offensive to me,” said Lakota Dimond (Hunkpapa Lakota).
    For a rather interesting similarity to Scotland today, and the so called extinguishing lie, look at this link in the FAQ section on sovereignty! http://www.niea.org/data/files/policy/nativeeducation101.pdf

    Finally for propaganda and the american dream?, the word Squaw, is a pejorative term for the female genitalia, the british nationalist press BNP, like to insult us but have not yet sunk to calling our women folk, cunts!

  63. john king says:

    I have a question
    If Camoron has decided the a country with devolved government cant legislate on Eglish only laws why are the Welsh (who have a devolved parliament) allowed to legislate?

    was it something we said?

  64. JLT says:

    To be honest, I think this style of attack from the media and certain ‘key figures’ on the Union side will continue for the foreseeable future. No one is going to admonish them. No one is going to be sacked. We can name and shame as many of these people as we want, but at the end of the day, they will still be around. The likes of Blair McDougall, Ian Smart and Euan McColm as examples are basically going nowhere.

    These folk can mock, deride and curse the SNP as well as all Yes Supporters as much as they want. No one is going to rein them in. Kezia made that clear when it came to Smart.

    However, there is just one flaw for them all. They shouldn’t be shouting and finger pointing at the SNP or the Yes supporters about the real possible ending of the Union; they should be worried about the folk pulling the strings in their own camp.

    Because after yesterday’s vote over EVEL, there is no way these guys can stop the growing anger and the shake of the heads when people in Scotland realise what is really going on down at Westminster.

    On one hand, the Scottish people are told that they are part of a ‘family of nations’ and that Scotland is an equal partner with England thanks to the Act of Union.

    Then they realise the true reality of it all when it comes to ‘the Union’.

    They get told that ‘the vow has been delivered’ nonsense. They will soon cotton on as to what EVEL really means. They are about to get 4 nuclear submarines dumped in their back yard (it’ll happen …no matter what …it’ll happen). They have the threat of being taken out of the EU even though they were told only remaining in the UK would protect their EU status. They watch as London continues to spend vast sums of money on itself while food banks remain, the NHS in both countries are in crisis, child tax credits are cut and industries collapse leading to redundancies.

    All of this matters to the Scottish people. And slowly, they are realising that this is not equality; that this is not fairness, and that Scotland only matters to London when it needs something from that nation. Day by day, a very small trickle of people in Scotland shake their heads and think ‘enough is enough’. Each day, a small portion of people become aware of the real state on the Union. They are sick of it. They want something else …and yes, they are moving more to the thought of independence.

    And for the likes of McDougall, McColm and Smart …there is nothing they can do about that but point fingers, foam at the mouth and whine about SNP perceived failings. They can’t stop the trickle of people wanting something better. And while they stick daft comments on Twitter, it seems that they have not comprehended that it is their own side that is damaging their beloved Union.

    They go on about ‘Separatists’. Well, to them, I’ll happily point out that the biggest set of separatists can be found in one section within Westminster halls that contain all the Unionist parties …and there they will find the biggest set of separatists of them all known as the Conservative Party, whom yesterday, turned a percentage of the peoples of the UK into second-class citizens when it comes to sitting in those hallowed halls.

  65. Robert Peffers says:

    @Lesley-Anne says: 22 October, 2015 at 10:06 pm:

    “So according to numpty Pumpty Martin Sheffield is now, apparently, in S******d. I wonder how this information has gone down in Sheffield.”

    One imagines, Lesley-Anne, that it makes a far less impact than the WWII bombers of a certain Mr Hitler did in WWII.

  66. manandboy says:

    I believe it is very unlikely that the people whom Mr Cameron obeys, have not thought through their current strategy to the end. EVEL is only a part of that strategy.
    It will include a willingness to use military force without hesitation, should Scotland adopt a policy of
    non-co-operation.
    There’s simply too much money at stake just to let Scotland walk away with it all and become another Norway.
    England has too much to lose.

    You know it makes sense.

  67. Will Podmore says:

    EVEL is another divisive ploy by this appalling government.

  68. Les Wilson says:

    Evel now on Call Kate.

  69. dakk says:

    Re EVEL,some of these 59 Scottish MPs are not even 2nd class MPs

    If any of them are Roman Catholic,then the Act of Settlement makes them 3rd Class.Same goes for the rest of the Scottish people.

    What a lovely inclusive, melting pot is Great Britain.

  70. orri says:

    Quick check shows that the party most likely to be associated with Sheffield is Labour. Can I therefore suggest that the comma is meant to be after the SNP rather than before it?

  71. scottieDog says:

    Thing is they had EVEL anyway due numbers. What a silly silly law.
    Wonder if any SLAB (excuses for) politicians will now come out for indy.

  72. sensibledave says:

    I am struggling to follow the logic of many of the arguments regarding EVEL.

    Briefly, there is huge support here for the idea that EVEL is so unfair on Scots that it constitutes “the day” the Union ended – that Scots will see that their “masters” have done them over in such an unfair and underhand way that Scottish Independence is now inevitable.

    If that is the case then why would those nasty Britnats that desperately want to hang on to Scotland have done this? Isn’t it good for the SNP and Scottish Independence.

    Secondly, I have just read the information on the SNP site (referenced above) explaining what EVEL means:

    “Stage one

    When a bill is introduced in the Commons, the Speaker will be required to ‘certify’ whether the bill, or parts of it, relates exclusively to England, or England and Wales.”

    ….. So, the duly elected Government of the UK introduces a bill – the Speaker identifies if there are “English Only” aspects.

    “? Stage two

    The Bill will go through its Second Reading and Committee Stage as normal.”

    … actually, they missed a phase i.e. the first reading. Nevertheless, the whole of the House of Commons, including the elected representative MPs from all parties, debate the bill and it is inspected in the Committee stages.

    So nothing has changed so far.

    “? Stage three

    If the Speaker has decided a bill relates only to England it will go through a special, additional Committee Stage. A legislative Grand Committee will be set up, where only English MPs will consider the Bill. The membership of this committee will reflect the electoral makeup of England.

    If the Speaker has decided a bill relates only to England and Wales, the legislative Grand Committee will be made up of English and Welsh MPs.

    This stage allows English or English and Welsh MPs to debate legislation, and either consent to it or veto it.”

    …. So, this Grand Committee can only either consent to it – or veto it! This means that the only power that the Grand Committee has is to agree or disagree to bills passed by the House of Commons.

    In essence therefore, the power of the Grand Committee, is limited to vetoing Bills that only affect England!

    Oh, the shame!

    Vetoing can only occur if a majority of English MPs didn’t want a Bill passed that only affects England.

    Appalling! An insult! The end of democracy! A slap in the face to Scottish MPs!

    … give me a break!

  73. Les Wilson says:

    BBC got hand picked texters and callers today. It is rather obvious.

  74. Marcia says:

    For those who don’t know what the Sheffield reference means, it refers to the over confident then Labour Leader, Neil Kinnock who was leading in the polls in the 1992 General Election.

    Martin was hoping the same would happen to the SNP in May. Here is a segment of his speech that the press used against Labour.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TOgB3Smvro

  75. Sinky says:

    Is EVEL contrary to The Treaty of Union ?

    If so, can we crowd fund a legal challenge to repeal the Treaty of Union?

  76. manandboy says:

    Everyone wants to know when the next Referendum on Independence will be. But that’s not the game the Tories are playing. If the propaganda blitz over the next six months fails to unseat the SNP from overall control of Holyrood, then you can bet your house that Westminster will not suffer four more years of grief from Scotland.

    Democracy is finished in the UK.

    The Tories will not use democratic means to resolve the now irreconcilable differences between Scotland and England.

    They never have in the past and they never will.
    We know them.

  77. sensibledave says:

    Will Podmore 9:21 am

    Wrote: “EVEL is another divisive ploy by this appalling government.”

    Well this is new!

    Let me guess Will, you are not one of the 55% of English voters in the GE that voted right of centre? You don’t want any additional democracy in England because you don’t like what the democratic majority want in England?

  78. One_Scot says:

    Don’t even think about feeding it.

  79. Andrew McLean says:

    sensible Dave,

    Ok I get your point, actually I would go further, I don’t want any Scots voting at all in westminster. It’s long past time that england looked after its own affairs, we have been helping you out for far too long! Time to grow up and make your own way in life! Don’t be afraid, getting us to hold your hand at every turn hasn’t worked out!

    probable that I am out of kilter with some here but I want EVEL MAX.

  80. TD says:

    sensibledave at 9:40

    Your analysis misses the point. For example, if there is legislation before the house of commons about Heathrow Airport, would that be an “English Only” bill? It could be argued both ways – it is entirely in England, but could have significant impact on Scotland. If the speaker decided it was English only, Scottish MPs would be excluded from the decision to veto the bill or not.

    Also, using the same example, an MP from Newcastle or Carlisle would be allowed to take part in the decision to veto and yet the impact on their constituents is arguably less than that on people in Scotland. Then of course there is the issue of Barnet consequentials – decisions about England directly impact the funding of Scotland.

    The whole thing is an unmitigated shambles. By all means have English votes for English laws, but if that is what you want, set up a parliament for England. The arrogance of the (UK) government in hijacking the UK parliament to make it a quasi-English parliament is unbelievable.

    Correction – it is believable. In fact we should expect no less.

  81. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Like many regular Wingers, I have, on occasions, wished serious harm on sensibledave.

    However, his post at 9.40am is, if I may say so, a very sensible and clear setting-out of the position on EVEL.

    Prior to the re-establishment of the Scottish Parliament, and the establishment of the Belfast and Cardiff Assemblies, there were frequent occasions in the Commons, whereby the Scottish MPs or Welsh or Northern Irish members, sat as a Northern Irish, Scottish or Welsh Grand Committee, to discuss matters purely within their bailiewick.

    English members could, as I understand it, attend these Grand Committee meetings, could speak, but could not vote. Assuming this will be the case with the English Grand Committee stage of “English Only” bills, I don’t have a problem with EVEL.

    It is not as if Scottish MPs, even if unanimously against proposed legislation, could ever overturn an English majority in favour – that’s democracy, Westminster style.

    What does stink, is the way this Tory government is trying to sneak it through via changing standing orders.

    It will pass, but, one would hope, when the incumbent Speaker stands down, that a non-English MP might be elected in succession, if only as a check and balance. However, I do not see the Tories allowing this to happen.

    An English parliament, separate from the House of Commons, and elected by some form of PR is still the ideal, but, don’t hold your breath for this happening.

    The English Parliament will come, however, within a decade – once we have Independence.

  82. Helena Brown says:

    Sensible Dave, no idea how the government of this benighted country works, well join the senseless majority who don’t. Firstly Scots MP’s do not vote on matters to do with Education or Health here in Scotland, So that is the first thing wrong with this. Then we have the fact that there are consequentials to much that is voted on in Westminster. What is needed is federalism and that my dear is never going to be offered by those who seek to control us.
    England should have had a devolved Parliament as should Wales and NI not the stupid almost powerless Assemblies they have. Then there should be a Parliament to look after all the things not devolved. This EVEL is a crock of poo my dear and you are far to up yourself to understand. Go get an education.

  83. Camy says:

    The question nobody is asking is – Why Sheffield?

  84. sensibledave says:

    TD says:at 9:56 am

    “Your analysis misses the point. For example, if there is legislation before the house of commons about Heathrow Airport, would that be an “English Only” bill? It could be argued both ways – it is entirely in England, but could have significant impact on Scotland. If the speaker decided it was English only, Scottish MPs would be excluded from the decision to veto the bill or not.”

    No TD. You are missing the point. The whole of the House of Commons has to pass the bill. All MPs. All Parties.

  85. Marcia says:

    Camy -see my post at 9.44

  86. JLT says:

    Sensibledave

    You’re at it, and you know you’re at it.

    What many of the MP’s did yesterday was to take the ‘UK’ Parliament, and turn part of it into an ‘English’ parliament.

    The reason that they did this was because if they had built a separate building away from Westminster called the ‘English Parliament’, then we would be heading down the path of Federalism. But many MP’s and powerbrokers in the City don’t want that. This would lead to changes in taxation and forcing the City to fend for itself rather than rake in monies from all over the UK and spending it anyway it wants. A separate ‘English Parliament’ would have changed everything. If all four nations had their own individual Parliaments, then monies raised would have remained within those nations instead of being filtered off to London. But nah! Westminster can’t have that …so let’s do the usual and insidious thing, and implement an English Parliament right at the heart of the UK one. You would be screeching to the heavens if Germany or France decided from this point on that key EU issues would be debated within the Reichstag or French Senate. Well, same thing Dave.

    You state that you have been on the SNP website and have quoted from it. Yep …all correct so far, but you them omit the outcome of EVEL as explained by the SNP. So …let me help you complete the task, Dave.

    What does it mean?
    – Scottish MPs will become second-class citizens in the House of Commons. These EVEL plans exclude MPs from Scotland, and from other areas outside England, from voting on legislation that could have consequentials and effects on other parts of the UK.

    – There are also financial implications – as decisions taken for England only can lead to changes to Scotland’s budget from the UK Government.

    – These plans also put the Speaker in a position where he needs to make political decisions, with no clear procedure about how he will make decisions on ‘certifying’ a bill as England only.

    What could it affect?
    – Many issues which may appear to be ‘England-only’ can often have knock-on consequences in terms of Scotland’s public finances – for example decisions on NHS spending. The SNP would look to vote against any privatisation of the NHS to protect Scotland’s budget as well as retaining the NHS as a proper public service in England.

    – Any plans and subsequent legislation to build a third runway at Heathrow would also appear only to relate to England, but will have a huge knock-on effect in Scotland.

    So …don’t start. You know fine well that a breach of the Union has taken place here. If you want an ‘English Parliament’, then build a separate building, fill it with English MP’s and do what the rest of the UK has done instead of abusing the systems at Westminster.

    And if you’re going to quote the facts, then quote them in their entirety. Don’t play us for fools or believe us to be idiots. If you have no interest in independence then go and scuttle off somewhere and join one of the Tory, Labour or UKIP forums. I’m sure you’ll be warmly welcomed there with your points of view!

  87. heedtracker says:

    No TD. You are missing the point. The whole of the House of Commons has to pass the bill. All MPs. All Parties.

    Life for English foxes just got a whole lot more dangerous sensible.

    Scotland’s on its way. Tally ho sensibledave.

    Its why it’s all been buried as deep as insanely possible by English media in their Scotland region.

  88. sensibledave says:

    Helena Brown 9:59 am

    Normally Helena, I would understand whatever point you are trying to make and then, if I disagreed with it, I would make my argument. On this occasion though, I have no idea what your comment has to do with the rights or wrongs of EVEL – so I can’t.

  89. Les Wilson says:

    I will ask the question again about EVEL,if England propose a big infrastructure project,does that mean that Scotland still gets charged their share while our MP’s had no vote on it?

    If that could be the case,we can call Cameron Dick Turpin ( as well as many other things!)
    it would be blatent robbery. Bye Bye Union.

  90. TD says:

    sensibledave at 10:05

    I chose my words very carefully. Scottish MPs would be excluded from the Grand Committee which would make a decision to veto the bill or not. I am not missing the point at all.

    But you are clearly missing the point about this shambolic arrangement creating two classes of MP. You are clearly missing the point about the arrogance of the UK government. You are clearly missing the point about the further alienation of the Scottish people.

    Of course, those of us who support independence for Scotland have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand we are outraged at this latest example of colonial rule of our country from London. On the other, this act is so blatant that it will win a few more No voters over to our side. We don’t need too many people to change to get to our target 60%.

  91. Nana Smith says:

    Ronnie Cowan said in his speech yesterday

    “England should have its own parliament- you’re not too wee, too poor”

    Well said Mr Cowan. But sadly the English mps think they own everything and Westminster is theirs and theirs only.

    Far as I’m concerned they are welcome to the cesspit.

  92. Chris Baxter says:

    “When a bill is introduced in the Commons, the Speaker will be required to ‘certify’ whether the bill, or parts of it, relates exclusively to England, or England and Wales.”

    Which is preposterous. It took many MPs and a lot of time to determine which issues should be devolved to Scotland. And now one individual MP (who happens to sit in an English contituency) can decide at their whim whether something is an English-only issue?

    Funny how the Scotland Act is an English only issue, huh.

    Seriously, you’re an imbecile.

  93. JLT says:

    SensibleDave

    “Your analysis misses the point. For example, if there is legislation before the house of commons about Heathrow Airport, would that be an “English Only” bill? It could be argued both ways – it is entirely in England, but could have significant impact on Scotland. If the speaker decided it was English only, Scottish MPs would be excluded from the decision to veto the bill or not.”

    True …but once again, missing the point.

    What it means is that Scottish, Welsh and NI MP’s could be locked out of the room while English MP’s debate the costs of a third run way. But who is paying for it Dave? Well …Shock, horror! Everyone! Not just the English constituents, but EVERYONE in the UK. So it isn’t an English matter. It’s dressed up as one, but in reality, it affects everyone in the UK.

    And where would we be Dave? That’s right …standing outside the main chamber tapping our feet while English MP’s debate the cost.

    That is why England needs a completely and separate parliament. If it wants to debate costs for a third runway, the English people pay for it …not everyone in the UK.

    Once again, you’re only telling half a story here.

  94. So Scottish MP`sAs the Americans clapping in parliament is headline news throughout the sewer that is the Scottish MSM but when at the same parliament the English vote to make the representatives of the citizens of Scotland second class and impotent we hear/read absolutely nothing.

    `No representation` was the catalyst that lost England the American colonies.

  95. Bob Mack says:

    Imagine living in a family home where only one partner makes all the decisions on every purchase and on every single aspect of what you can or cannot do.
    . How long would that last I wonder ?

  96. sensibledave says:

    JLT 10.11

    “What does it mean?
    – Scottish MPs will become second-class citizens in the House of Commons. These EVEL plans exclude MPs from Scotland, and from other areas outside England, from voting on legislation that could have consequentials and effects on other parts of the UK.”

    … only if the Bill is passed by The House of Commons – including Scottish MPs

    “– There are also financial implications – as decisions taken for England only can lead to changes to Scotland’s budget from the UK Government.”

    … only if the Bill is passed by The House of Commons – including Scottish MPs

    “– These plans also put the Speaker in a position where he needs to make political decisions, with no clear procedure about how he will make decisions on ‘certifying’ a bill as England only.”

    …. But if The House of Commons (including Scottish MPs) thinks the Speaker is wrong, they wont pass the Bill!

    “What could it affect?
    – Many issues which may appear to be ‘England-only’ can often have knock-on consequences in terms of Scotland’s public finances – for example decisions on NHS spending. The SNP would look to vote against any privatisation of the NHS to protect Scotland’s budget as well as retaining the NHS as a proper public service in England.”

    … only if the Bill is passed by The House of Commons – including Scottish MPs

    – Any plans and subsequent legislation to build a third runway at Heathrow would also appear only to relate to England, but will have a huge knock-on effect in Scotland.

    … but the whole of the House of Commons have to vote for the knock on affect. The Grand Committee can only agree to it.

    “So …don’t start. You know fine well that a breach of the Union has taken place here. If you want an ‘English Parliament’, then build a separate building, fill it with English MP’s and do what the rest of the UK has done instead of abusing the systems at Westminster.”

    …. Poppycock!

    And if you’re going to quote the facts, then quote them in their entirety. Don’t play us for fools or believe us to be idiots. If you have no interest in independence then go and scuttle off somewhere and join one of the Tory, Labour or UKIP forums. I’m sure you’ll be warmly welcomed there with your points of view!

    … and you JLT, need to read and understand what the SNP web site is telling you – in essence:

    1. English Only laws will only be passed if the duly elected representatives of the people of the whole of the UK (including Scottish MPs) want to pass them.

    2. English Only laws can only be vetoed by a majority of duly elected English MPs

    If you don’t think that is fair – then there is nothing more I can say to you.

  97. scotsbob says:

    That EVEL thing went through Parliament very swiftly. I wonder why the recommendations of the Smith commission aren’t going through at the same speed.

  98. Les Wilson says:

    sensibledave says:
    23 October, 2015 at 10:05 am

    Are you not forgetting that the English MP’s can overule Scotland right now,at any time. I will assume you can count.

    Our MP’s effect a miniscule number of bills,being outvoted at every turn.In light of that,English MP.s already have the power.
    What EVEL does is exclude our MP’s from protesting, but wait, is that not what democracy is meant to be. There is little doubt these changes to the UK parliament will badly effect Scotland, as the Tories want it to do.

    This will denegrate Scotland,that has to be the reason.
    Democracy,if it ever existed in the UK is firmly nailed down now.
    It is not allowed and we are to be punished and robbed for daring to try and apply it. Tick Tock!

  99. sensibledave says:

    JLT 10:24 am

    “What it means is that Scottish, Welsh and NI MP’s could be locked out of the room while English MP’s debate the costs of a third run way. But who is paying for it Dave? Well …Shock, horror! Everyone! Not just the English constituents, but EVERYONE in the UK. So it isn’t an English matter. It’s dressed up as one, but in reality, it affects everyone in the UK.

    And where would we be Dave? That’s right …standing outside the main chamber tapping our feet while English MP’s debate the cost.

    That is why England needs a completely and separate parliament. If it wants to debate costs for a third runway, the English people pay for it …not everyone in the UK.

    Once again, you’re only telling half a story here.”

    …. No JLT, you still haven’t got it have you.

    Try and understand this single, key, point JLT – any Bill, including costs, has to be passed by the House of Commons (including Scottish MPs) i.e. the Bill has to represent the democratic will of the UK Parliament for it to be passed.

    If you whole argument has come to down to the “costs” of the Grand Committee having a chat about English only laws then, if there are any, it will represent excellent value for money in comparison to any other Assembly, or Parliament, in the UK.

  100. Andrew McLean says:

    Scot Finlayson says:at 10:28 am
    `No representation` was the catalyst that lost England the American colonies.”

    Excellent point, so my tax will pay, in part, for english only items, that I have no democratic representation for. this is not just a moot point, Englands MPs could vote in policies that would have a dramatic effect of the financial stability of the UK. ‘True Sons of Liberty’ the end is near for this bastard union

  101. Fireproofjim says:

    Absolutely astonishing. EVEL.
    The biggest constitutional change to government in memory and it is relegated to third place in Reporting Scotland, after the Clutha helicopter crash report. The Scotsman leads with a headline attacking the SNP’s council tax freeze, and has nine out of ten letters attacking various aspects of the SNP government.
    All reference to EVEL has been removed from the BBC On Line Scotland page.
    You would think they had something to hide.

  102. Scottish MP`s ridiculed for clapping in parliament is headline news throughout the sewer that is the Scottish MSM but when at the same parliament the English vote to make the representatives of the citizens of Scotland second class and impotent we hear/read absolutely nothing.

    `No representation` was the catalyst that lost England the American colonies.

  103. Nana Smith says:

    Someone will correct if I’m wrong about this but in addition to EVEL our MP’s are being edged out in other ways. For instance the committee on human rights has 4 Tory, 2 Lab MP’s and 6 peers. NO SNP

    I doubt the smith commission fudge will even be delivered now. The tories don’t care what happens to Scots, we have always known that. For crying out they don’t care about English people either. That’s obvious from the damage they are doing to people’s lives.

    When the UN is called in to investigate government policy related to deaths of vulnerable and disabled folk something is very badly wrong and stinks of corruption. Putrid tories doing what they have always done, filling their own pockets at the expense of everyone else.

  104. heedtracker says:

    If you don’t think that is fair – then there is nothing more I can say to you.

    If only. sensible, EVEL, tax credit slashed, Smith Commision PAYE tax hikes, all designed to completely fcuk Scotland and ofcourse SNP Scots.gov, get their SLabour goon show back in power again, for ever and ever amen.

    And that’s just what its obviously going on in broad daylight.

    Here’s future Lord Adam Tomkins, Ljubljana West on what EVEL really means for the future of England in Scotland

    https://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com/author/conlawforum/

    EVEL is not a mere tidying-up measure. It is, on the contrary, likely to have profound constitutional consequences. Whilst the Government’s proposals are confined to law-making, if the principle of EVEL takes root, it could in due course lead to a desire for other aspects of parliamentary business with a separate and distinct effect in England becoming subject to the need for explicit English consent.

    There are Departments of State, for example, whose business directly affects only or mainly England (or England and Wales) (the Departments of Education, Communities and Local Government, and Health are examples).

    Should the Secretary of State (and Ministers of State?) of these departments be required to represent English constituencies? Or, as a lesser measure, should their appointments be subject to the consent of a majority of MPs representing seats in England? Should the select committees that scrutinise these departments be composed only of MPs representing constituencies in England (or England and Wales)?

    Is the great Professor Smirky wrong sensible?

  105. Proud Cybernat says:

    “In this way, journalists and their bosses are seriously compared to the henchmen of mass-murdering tyrants.”

    With their lies and misinformation these journalists and their bosses are mass-murdering our democracy. (Exhibit #1: Andrew Neil interview with the SNP’s Angus Robertson MP – http://tinyurl.com/pmce9g7 ).

  106. Wonder how every unionist politician will answer the question about how the campaigned, lied, threatened to secure a NO vote last year, and how they now feel about that vote meaning that Scotland, her people and elected representatives are now second class.

  107. sensibledave says:

    Les Wilson 10:39 am

    You wrote: “Are you not forgetting that the English MP’s can overule Scotland right now,at any time. I will assume you can count.”

    …. This is starting to get tedious now.

    Come on Les! Please try to keep up. Let me paraphrase your paragraph above:

    “Are you not forgetting that the duly elected representatives of the UK Parliament can have a vote on something and some of those representatives will be in the minority when the votes are counted”

    No I haven’t forgotten Les – we call it democracy.

  108. Andrew McLean says:

    Sensible dave

    … only if the Bill is passed by The House of Commons – including Scottish MPs”

    Ok you may not know, but we Scots are a small minority in Westminster, even if all our MPs were to vote, it would matter not a jot, we are sick of the Tyranny of the majority who don’t have our interests at heart.
    We wish for a better future, and sorry that does not include you! Not that we wish you ill, we just don’t want to be shackled to you anymore, it is not healthy for either of us.
    The bedrock of democracy in westminster is that all mps are equal, even the position Prime minister is a fallacy, there is no such man, he is not real, all he is is a PM. And that is the nub of the argument, either all in or all out! My vote is all out!

  109. TD says:

    sensibledave

    You continue to miss the point. If you believe in the UK, then that is a legitimate point of view (although not one shared by most people commenting here). But if you believe in a unitary parliament for the United Kingdom, then all members of that parliament should have the same status.

    Imagine if we were considering a third world emerging democracy and trying to judge how democratic they were. If elected representatives from part of that country were discriminated against purely because of the area they represented, we would immediately doubt that country’s democratic credentials. And if it turned out that those who had the higher status outnumbered those with the lower status by around 10 to 1, we would be horrified at the oppression of a minority.

    How English laws are passed is indeed a matter for the English. If you want to continue to do it in the unitary UK parliament, then that’s fine but you’ll have to accept that there are Scottish members of that parliament. If you want to do it in an English parliament, that’s also fine and I am sure there would be no opposition from SNP MPs to the necessary legislation. But what is not acceptable is to meddle with the rules of OUR parliament to suit your own self-interest.

    It is an outrage. Even Labour recognise it.

  110. bookie from hell says:

    Ian Murray confirms Scottish,Welsh,N Irish MPs are 2nd class

    Commenting on last night’s Commons vote, Shadow Scotland Secretary Ian Murray MP said:

    “Today, the Government have put a wrecking ball through the constitution with a measure that will only serve to weaken our democracy. For the first time there will now be two tiers of MPs, and unelected members of the House of Lords will have more power than some elected MPs. Today is yet more evidence that David Cameron is governing in the interests of his rebel backbenchers and not the country as a whole.

  111. Alastair says:

    OT. Very interesting observation. Defence Expenditure Bill being discussed now in the House of Commons and for the first time ever (as far as I have seen) since the GE there is not one SNP MP in the chamber.
    The SNP group have been the best in percentage terms attendees and contributors of any party.

  112. Dr Jim says:

    EVEL:

    Suppose God forbid Ian Murray were to be elevated to leader of the Labour Party and then Labour swept the board in a great victory in the next GE

    Poor old Ian as new Prime Minister couldn’t vote on purely English matters but here’s the thing neither could his 59 Scottish Labour MPs thereby diluting any power the Labour party might have in the future, exactly how the Tories planned

    So if the Labour party in Scotland has any brains and wants to survive it had better start supporting Independence or it has no future North and South of the border

    Baroness Moan of Bra’sburgh now has more say over what goes on in Scotland than Kezia

    Funnier by the minute Kezia with a YES banner and a Saltire

  113. Sunniva says:

    Couldn’t MPs just defy EVEL and turn up at ‘English only’ debates and attempt to be heard (one way or another….) and attempt to vote? It would make great political theatre if they did. That was what Parnell and the Irish National Party attempted to do in the 19th century by philibustering.

  114. heedtracker says:

    Read Prof T’s thing sensible? Its a great essay isnt it.

    “If the Government want their “relatively modest proposal” to stand the test of time, they would be well advised to proceed with less haste and more care. I welcome the idea of English votes for English laws. I would welcome it more enthusiastically if I thought that its consequences and constitutional importance had been fully thought through.”

    Toryboy world ignored Prof T on NOT rushing eh.

    Also sensible

    “In short, the Scottish block grant is calculated by reference to certain departmental spending in England. If such spending is cut in England, so too is the block grant. Now, legislation itself does not change departments’ budget provision.”

    So sensible, toryboy England slash and burn continues, Scotland now has NO vote.

  115. sensibledave says:

    Andrew McLean 10:44 am

    “Englands MPs could vote in policies that would have a dramatic effect of the financial stability of the UK.”

    No Andrew – THE UK PARLIAMENT,/b> HAS TO VOTE FOR POLICIES THAT HAVE A DRAMATIC AFFECT OF THE FINANCIAL STABILITY OF THE UK!!!!!!

  116. Andrew McLean says:

    sensible dave,
    Typo not PM, not real! Ment to type MP 🙂

  117. Xaracen says:

    2. English Only laws can only be vetoed by a majority of duly elected English MPs

    If you don’t think that is fair – then there is nothing more I can say to you.

    Scottish MPs enjoy no such veto for Scottish only laws, if you don’t think that is fair – then there is nothing more I can say to you.

  118. Sunniva says:

    The votes of Scottish MPs made a difference to the outcome of divisions 0.65% of the time since 2001, according to the House of Commons Library’s research.

    English MPs have 99.35% success rate in getting their own way and they want more?

    What kind of ‘union’ was that?

  119. sensibledave says:

    TD 10.56

    “How English laws are passed is indeed a matter for the English”

    Unfortunately though, and you still haven’t “got it” have you, English Only laws will only come to pass – IF THE UK PARLIAMENT, INCLUDING SCOTTISH MPs, VOTE FOR THEM!

    I understand that the the SNP “project fear” machine has been working overtime on you all to get yourselves worked up into a lather over this.

    I think, slowly, one by one, you are beginning to understand the truth.

  120. Ruby says:

    Labour research found that
    “Labour, voters north of the Border no longer feel angry about the party “taking Scotland for granted”. But this is only because they think the party is “simply an irrelevance”.

    I pretty much have to same feelings towards ‘journalist’ like Iain Martin.

    Can you help?

    Did Ian Murray take part in the EVEL debate?

  121. Andrew McLean says:

    Sensible dave,

    your argument is built on foundations of sand, and us vile separatists are pissing on them. !

  122. JLT says:

    … and you JLT, need to read and understand what the SNP web site is telling you – in essence:

    Ehhhhh …they did ….and that was the bit that you decidedly missed out and I had to post for you. Why was that, Dave? Why did you omit the consequences from the SNP site? You quoted everything else, bar the SNP’s conclusions. Strange that!

    Right, three points that you may want to take on board before I’m finished with you entirely. Never again will I get into one your purile nonsensical arguments.

    Firstly Dave …start giving all the facts and not just the ones that suit your agenda. I’ve had to pick you up on two things in previous posts because you tell ‘half the story’. Don’t quote half an SNP article and pretend to everyone that that is the full story. There’s a thing called the internet. It takes only a few seconds to look up your ‘fact’ and then realise that you’re not being fully honest.

    Secondly …try understand the concept of a ‘separate’ parliament and raising your very own taxation. You continually skirt around two key issues here; representation and tax. Maybe you’ve read once that Britain once had 13 colonies somewhere on the other side of the Atlantic, but then lost them through the argument of ‘No taxation without representation’. Guess what pal, seems history is repeating itself here.

    Understand one thing …everyone here wants England to have its own Parliament. No one is arguing against it. What we are arguing against is the fact that they are using the UK Parliament as that English parliament. However, you seem to struggle with that concept. Hoping that the Speaker ‘may’ keep non-English MP’s in the room isn’t democracy. It’s political Russian Roulette. We just don’t know when we get up that day, and see if we will be allowed in the chamber to debate on a sensitive ‘English’ issue. For everyone else here, we can see that that isn’t democracy. So either build a separate parliament (which England pays for) or end the Union in its entirety …because this isn’t a Union if EVEL is finally implemented.

    Thirdly …you’re for the Union, mate. So go and find a nice Union forum. ‘Britain First’ does a good one if it helps.

    So …good day SensibleDave. We are done.

  123. sensibledave says:

    Sunniva 10:59 am

    You wrote “Couldn’t MPs just defy EVEL and turn up at ‘English only’ debates and attempt to be heard (one way or another….) and attempt to vote? It would make great political theatre if they did. That was what Parnell and the Irish National Party attempted to do in the 19th century by philibustering”

    … I think that comment just about sums up the whole debate.

    Sunniva hasn’t got a clue what EVEL is about – and yet he is against it!

  124. mealer says:

    This means it’s pretty much impossible for Fluffy to become Prime Minister of England.I mean Britain.The greatest PM that never was?

  125. Proud Cybernat says:

    The NHS budget in England is the yardstick for determining the SNHS budget via Barnett. Prior to yesterday Scots MPs could vote on the ENHS. And rightly so because if, for example, the Tories proposed cutting the ENHS budget that cut will have a knock-on (adverse) effect to Scotland’s Block Grant.

    Where Scots MPs prior to E-Day had at least some influence on this, they now have no say at all on how the Scottih Block Grant is calculated. In this regard, Scots MPs now have no voice in Westminster on matters that will impact upon their constituents.

    We need to be yelling this from the rooftops all across Scotland. The UK is heading towards tyranny if this situation is not resolved and allowed to continue.

  126. Bob Mack says:

    @sensibledave,

    You don’t have a clue what EVEL is truly about.
    It is about breaking the potential will of the Scottish people to choose independence

  127. Les Wilson says:

    sensibledave says:

    Well democracy has just been screwed over by Westminster.
    English MP’s already have the power. It is Scotland they want to harm, however they try and spin it.

  128. TD says:

    sensibledave at 11:09

    You say I “don’t get it”. I do. I understand that the whole house of commons will have to pass the legislation. I don’t know why you keep repeating this.

    But you don’t seem to “get” that it is fundamentally undemocratic to have different classes of MPs. You don’t seem to “get” that this is an abuse of power. You don’t seem to “get” that EVEL as currently proposed will drive people to vote SNP and Yes.

  129. sensibledave says:

    JLT 11.13

    You wrote: “Understand one thing …everyone here wants England to have its own Parliament.”

    I do. And I recognise that it colours your view on every issue because you think an English Parliament will help your cause for Scottish Independence – which is why you are unable assess EVEL in any sensible way.

    You wrote: “Hoping that the Speaker ‘may’ keep non-English MP’s in the room isn’t democracy. It’s political Russian Roulette. We just don’t know when we get up that day, and see if we will be allowed in the chamber to debate on a sensitive ‘English’ issue.

    …. I will try and keep my patience. THE UK PARLIAMENT (INCLUDING SCOTTISH MPS) WILL DEBATE, THROUGH THREE READINGS, TO PASS ANY BILL ON “ENGLISH ONLY” LAWS.

  130. heedtracker says:

    The great frauds explain

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34599998

    “How it will work

    Speaker John Bercow will decide whether a Bill only affects England, and all MPs in the Commons will still have to pass legislation at other stages of the process”

    So one dude, toryboy ofcourse, now decides the entire future of teamGB. BBC lie machine does not discuss why this is essentially the end of democracy for Scotland in Westminster.

    This one BBC fraud on Scotland ends with-

    “When Scotland voted last year to remain part of the UK, David Cameron promised significantly increased powers for the Scottish Parliament, including the ability to set some tax and benefit levels.

    At the same time, he promised English MPs they would get more power too – they would be able to legislate in areas such as health and education without any input from MPs representing Scottish seat”

    But when Scotland voted Sept 18 last year, EVEL wasn’t on the referendum ballot was it dear BBC lie machine. Maybe “At the same time” in BBC speak means 12 hours later or the day after.

    But facts like pig fancier Cammers producing EVEL the day after the referendum, doesn’t seem worth mention to the BBC frauds, today at least.

    Another pretty neat display of BBC propaganda though.

  131. frogesque says:

    sensibledave says:
    23 October, 2015 at 11:09 am
    TD 10.56

    “How English laws are passed is indeed a matter for the English”

    Unfortunately though, and you still haven’t “got it” have you, English Only laws will only come to pass – IF THE UK PARLIAMENT, INCLUDING SCOTTISH MPs, VOTE FOR THEM!

    I understand that the the SNP “project fear” machine has been working overtime on you all to get yourselves worked up into a lather over this.

    I think, slowly, one by one, you are beginning to understand the truth.

    In fairness dave you are correct in what you say.

    What you don’t say however is that there are 59 Scottish MPs and 533 English MPs with currently an absolute Tory majority.

    Therefore English MPs can overrule Scottish MPs any time they like (or are Whipped) as happened during the passage of the Scotland Bill.

    As things now stand no Scottish MP of whatever Party could effectively be a Prime Minter, Chancellor or Cabinet Minister, neither could they become Shadow equivalents.

    So there you have it, Scots MPs have been reduced to second class MPs on a nod.

    The interesting bit is how can Fluffy Mundell (not Mun-dell) keep his Viceroy’s post. I wait with anticipation on that one.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_Westminster_MPs

  132. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    And there is no equivalent measure to prevent all English MPs voting on any UK matter which mostly affects Scotland.

    In the unlikely event of the Labour Party in Scotland effecting a huge revival and sending a huge team down to Westminster Cameron has just guaranteed they can’t vote on “English only ” matters thus providing a guaranteed permanent Tory majority in England.

    The concept of a political United Kingdom has been destroyed.

    The fact that English MPs can’t vote in the Scottish Parliament being used as some sort of justification for this is bogus.
    Scots MPS can’t vote in the Scottish Parliament either.

  133. Jack Murphy says:

    Proud Cybernat said at 1:12 am:-
    “O/T
    Andrew Neil thoroughly debunked (the video):
    http://tinyurl.com/pmce9g7
    Spread it far, spread it wide.”

    Well worth a Second Hearing/Viewing.
    Easy to understand graphics and commentary. 🙂
    Excellent.
    The Movers and Shakers at the BBC in Scotland could even make sense of this.

    http://tinyurl.com/pmce9g7

  134. sensibledave says:

    Bob Mack 11:23 am

    You wrote “You don’t have a clue what EVEL is truly about.
    It is about breaking the potential will of the Scottish people to choose independence”

    Bob, I do think I am in the minority here. It would appear, based upon most of the comments above, that I am one of very few people who understand what EVEL is about.

    The rest, are just against it because someone has told them they are.

  135. Andrew McLean says:

    This has an amazing counterpart in American history, The stamp act was a pretty innocuous piece of law, Westminster put it through without much debate, after all it was in their eyes an administrative tidying up!
    But it caused so much consternation in the colony , that the scraped the act one year later, that could happen with EVEL, But by that time the die had been cast!

    In this EVEL the pretence of a united parliamentary system has ended, we scots never voted for Thatcher but we got her! we never voted for trident but we got them, we never voted for austerity but we have got it!

    We did vote to remain in this basterd union, God help us, we did! Now we will pay, did we really believe a writer of children’s stories, that we would be in a strong position?, or the liar Gordon Brown, and his Vow, FFS he was a back bencher, his ego and big fat lying mouth smothered truth in the last days of the referendum debate. where was EVEL, oh yes, liar Brown, did David Cameron mention that to you, because the first thin out of his mouth after the no vote was EVEL, therefore he was planning this for a long time, vote no Scotts, cos I got a big surprise for you!

  136. galamcennalath says:

    I confess I don’t keep up with what legislation is before Westminster unless it is something I consider ‘big’. I suspect many others are the same. Just had a look to see what goes on ….

    http://services.parliament.uk/bills/

    … my response is astonishment. I had no idea the list looked like this!

    A selection, starting at C …

    Carers (Leave Entitlement) Bill
    Chancel Repairs Bill
    Charities (Protection and Social Investment) Bill
    Child Victims of Human Trafficking (Central Government Responsibility) Bill
    Childcare Bill
    Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill
    Civil Enforcement Officers and Traffic Wardens (Integration of Duties and Powers) (England) Bill
    Etc etc

    …. on first glance it would appear many are indeed only concerned with England.

    However, since England has no budget and dips continually into the UK coffers, most English only legislation may have UK financial implications, and is therefore not in fact be English only.

    And, that’s before we even open the Barnet consequentials can of worms!

    My reaction, on seeing the list, is that Bill after Bill is going to be contentious regarding EVEL or not.

    My understanding is that if mistakes are made, laws are passed without non-English MPs, and an individual feels their democratic rights are being sidelined, then they have a good case to take before the courts.

  137. Eppy says:

    Hi all,

    Correct me if I am wrong but surely the changing of the rules in Westminster yesterday, will when it becomes law, take away the universality of all MPs.

    It may make it much easier for the exclusion of other groups of MPs because they are trying to vote on areas outside of their concern.

    Could this not be used to limit who could vote on the Scotland Bill for example. Can it be said to set a precedent in any way?

    Only asking.

  138. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Here’s a thought.
    Would the contentious siting of a nuclear arms base in England be a matter to be decided only by English MPs?

  139. Dan Huil says:

    “Devolution will kill nationalism stone dead”. Aye, that worked in the past didn’t it! Tee hee. Unionists are killing the so-called united kingdom. More please.

  140. sensibledave says:

    Dave McEwan 11:32 am

    The fact that English MPs can’t vote in the Scottish Parliament being used as some sort of justification for this is bogus.
    Scots MPS can’t vote in the Scottish Parliament either.

    No, Dave hasn’t “got it” yet either. SCOTTISH MPS WILL VOTE ON “ENGLISH ONLY” LAWS DAVE. ENGLISH ONLY LAWS WILL ONLY BE PASSED IF THE UK PARLIAMENT (INCLUDING SCOTTISH MPs) VOTE FOR THEM.

    Hereafter, I will use the acronym “SMPWVOEOLDEOLWOBPITUPISMVFT” to help prevent RSA.

  141. Wee Alex says:

    I tried to get through on the phone in this morning as I couldn’t believe the utter claptrap from the supporters of EVEL. It was nothing more that an attack on the SNP.

    No mention of the fact that Labour voted against.

    I wanted to make the point that the vote was nothing to do with Scotland but to stop Labour ever getting enough votes to control Westminster. Without 50 or so Scottish seats, a future Labour government has a snowballs chance In hell of passing Engish only laws. The Tories have stitched them up a treat.

    Never got through of course and I missed the last 10 mins of the phone in as a result.

  142. heedtracker says:

    The rest, are just against it because someone has told them they are

    Sensibledave youre wrong, I’m right is all fair enough but we didnt know EVEL was coming when we voted 18 Sept 2014. Can you not even begin to understand how democracy works.

    Yes The Vow was a devo-max fraud, this much we know now but it was dumped into Scotland’s referendum at the end of a campaign that toryboy world which refused on the third devo-max option for Scots, the most popular option too.

    So on top of the Vow devo-max shyste, we now we have EVEL, also kept secret from Scottish voters until the day after 18 Sept.

    Its that anti democratic sensibledave.

  143. Ruby says:

    ‘Dave McEwan Hill says:
    The fact that English MPs can’t vote in the Scottish Parliament being used as some sort of justification for this is bogus.
    Scots MPS can’t vote in the Scottish Parliament either.’

    Ruby replies
    Being that the Unionist parties at Holyrood are just branch offices being told what to do by English MPs then it is not true to say that English MPs can’t vote in the Scottish Parliament. Sure they can’t be there pysically to vote they just tell their branch office assistants how to they want them to vote.

  144. TD says:

    sensibledave at 11:28

    Glad to hear you are keeping your patience. You keep repeating that the whole house of commons will have to pass English legislation. To copy your style of using upper case to emphasise – WE KNOW. I could make it bold as well – would you get it then?

    I think you are being disingenuous and you do actually get the point that Scottish MPs will be excluded from the English Grand Committee. This committee will have the power to veto legislation. It cannot initiate legislation, but the power to veto is considerable. If EVEL did not give power to English MPs, what would be the point?

    The whole point of EVEL as currently proposed is to pander to the perceived injustice felt by some back-bench tory MPs and the less-informed English public. Those same backbenchers of course did not hesitate to throw out every SNP amendment to the Scotland Bill which was, guess what, about Scotland!

    The hypocrisy is unbelievable. Correction again – it is believable. It is what we have come to expect.

  145. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    sensibledave at 11.41

    Rubbish. What would be the point of “English only laws” then if they are not English only laws

  146. gus1940 says:

    Iain Martin:-

    Employed by A Neil at Scotsman Pubs. after takeover by loathesome Barclay Bros. and under Brillo started the destruction of The Scotsman subsequently completed under JP ownership.

    Now takes The Telegraph shilling – Telegraph part of Press Holdings – Chairman A. Neil – ultimate owners – loathesome Barclay Bros.

    Isn’t it a nice cosy world in the media?

  147. Bob Mack says:

    @sensibledave,

    If what you say is true, why has the Speaker to decide what is only English ? Should it not be obvious ?
    The Speaker as we know is” impartial”

    C’mon Dave, open your eyes.It is a stitch up from beginning to end in favour of the English master race.
    The reason you cannot or will not see it is that you are part of the problem.

  148. frogesque says:

    @ sensibledave, various comments and timestamps

    At approximately 5.00pm. on Thursday 22nd. October 2015 the Union died.

    Where’s the shovel?

  149. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Quite a thoughtful piece from the Economist which is certainly not a separatist rag

    “It is wrong that Scottish MPs get to rule on bills concerning, say, only English hospitals. But banning them from participating in such votes would create the risk of two separate governments; one English, one British (in the event of a Labour government reliant on its Scottish MPs, for example). So EVEL rightly gives English MPs a veto, but also requires all bills to pass the House of Commons as a whole. As compromises go, it could be worse.

    Still, the risk of a “two-tier” Commons is real. In a chamber where all are notionally equal Scottish MPs will be less powerful than English ones. EVEL greatly inflates the role of the speaker, whose job it will be to decide whether a bill is English-only—and thus whether the English majority should wield a veto. In practice, he will generally rule on the side of Britishness. This, and the fact that further fiscal powers will soon travel north to Edinburgh (meaning that even budget votes could generate expectations of an English veto), will eventually render EVEL insufficient. It seems to me that this movie has two possible endings.

    The first, happier one is federalisation. Giving England power over things that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland already control would clear the way to a Parliament and government in Downing Street responsible only for matters affecting all British citizens equally: foreign affairs, defence, monetary policy and so forth. An English Parliament risks exacerbating the problem that for centuries has been smothered in the mushy blur of Englishness and Britishness: the unworkable rivalry between any English government and a British one. But English devolution could yet take different forms. Sub-national authorities in England are already assuming powers unthinkable a few short years ago: Greater Manchester will soon run its own health service, for example. The long-term solution to Britain’s constitutional quandaries is probably a federal system in which Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Newcastle, Bristol, Cardiff, Southampton, Edinburgh and Belfast meet together, on equal terms, in London.

    The second and more likely possible outcome is separation. English self-denial has long been the glue holding the union together. It is melting. Both EVEL and the broader rise in an English sense of identity (comprehensively outlined in a 2012 paper by the IPPR, a think-tank) suggest that the United Kingdom is experiencing a great normalisation. Its constutitional imbalance is finally asserting itself. A ship that has sailed forth for many years despite a strong tilt is finally listing towards the waves. Last year’s Scottish referendum—and the strong appetite for a rerun evinced at the recent Scottish National Party conference—suggests that it is already taking on water. EVEL may prove the point at which it tips too far; at which England’s reemergence accelerates and at which the ship capsizes”

  150. heedtracker says:

    Hereafter, I will use the acronym “SMPWVOEOLDEOLWOBPITUPISMVFT” to help prevent RSA.

    Hilarious. So will there ever be Scottish MP, representing a Scottish constituency, getting the Mr or Madame Speaker job sensibledave?

    Madame Speaker Mhairi Black sensibledave?

    There will never be another Scottish UK.gov Prime Minister and there will never be another Scottish Mr or Madame Speaker in the Palace of Westminster.

    Huzzah

  151. Xaracen says:

    “How English laws are passed is indeed a matter for the English”

    No, it’s not, it’s a matter for the UK Parliament, involving all UK MPs.

    If England wants the same kind of exclusivity their MPs claim the Scottish Parliament has, then an English devolved parliament based on a similar model to the Scottish one is what is needed. If that solution was and is deemed by Westminster to be good enough for Scotland, then it’s bloody well good enough for England.

    And that English Parliament better not have more powers than Scotland’s, because that would be yet another obviously unfair settlement, and such unrelenting unfairness is what has driven Scottish independence to where it is today.

  152. call me dave says:

    I’m glad the WoS folk and others have the energy to challenge all this co-ordinated propaganda from Westminster and the MSM in Scotland. It’s hard to keep up with all the put downs and the hamstringing of our policies and representatives abilities to do the best for Scotland.
    Well done to you all.
    2 x SNP.

    PS
    It was done because we don’t understand. Aye right!
    https://archive.is/WqwS2

  153. Andrew McLean says:

    Sensible Dave

    To a point you are right looking askew at this, as in effect it’s just a bit of tinkering with the constitutional arrangements, and yes as the SNP demonstrate, best keep out of the internal affairs of another nation, as they do with their self imposed exile when purely english matters are discussed.
    But in only concentrating on the actual structure of EVEL you are missing the bigger picture in this you are unable, seemingly, to discriminate between a bicycle accident and the collapse of civilisation.

  154. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Ruby at 11.47

    I didn’t say that English MPs can’t vote in the Scottish Parliament. Of course they can’t.

    I said “Scottish MPs can’t vote in the Scottish Parliament”.
    You have missed the point

  155. Robert Louis says:

    Ahh the trouble EVEL is going to cause in Westminster and beyond. And here’s the really stupid part, Scottish MP’s only make up 9% of the total at Westminster. England has an inbuilt and absolute majority no matter if the government is Labour or Tory.

    Considering the problems it will cause for the Tories and Labour, the fact it will speed up Scottish independence and the fact that the legislative outcome will be no different, it truly must be one of the stupidest moves ever made by ANY Government anywhere, ever.

  156. heedtracker says:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34599998

    Just noticed the Getty Image under the BBC shills thing, Why it matters, What you must think. Kilts and claymores. What a bunch of crooks they really are.

  157. sensibledave says:

    TD 11.47

    You wrote “I think you are being disingenuous and you do actually get the point that Scottish MPs will be excluded from the English Grand Committee. This committee will have the power to veto legislation. It cannot initiate legislation, but the power to veto is considerable. If EVEL did not give power to English MPs, what would be the point?”

    … to stop “English Only” laws being passed that the majority of English MPs don’t want passed.

    Awful isn’t it!

  158. gus1940 says:

    After yesterday’s disgraceful EVEL crime against democracy how long till Scottish, Welsh and NI MPs have to wear armbands to identify themselves and prevent them entering the lobbies when EVEL business is being voted on?

    Instead of Yellow Star Of David ones can I suggest Saltire, Welsh Dragon and Red Hand ones.

    That raving nut job John Redwood made much of the injustice of Scottish MPs being able to vote on English matters since Devo in 1999. Perhaps he should be reminded that English MPs have been able to impose their will on Scotland and have done so for 308 years.

    What would happen if said Redwood struck lucky in the Ballot for Private Members Bills and proposed one to Repeal The original Scotland Act resulting in the abolition of The Scottish Parliament? Given the Tory Majority and the likelihood that a substantial number of Labour MPs would support such a Bill would the WM government stand in its way?

  159. Jim says:

    Does EVEL mean that English MPs can pass bills that involve the spending of UK money on English projects?

    Surely if this is the case then they would need to have their own parliament with their own budget?

    All UK MPs no matter where their constituency is would have to have a say on where UK money is allocated.

    I asked the wife for a twenty to but a few beers, she said no, then went out and bout herself a nice dress costing £70.

    She’s my office for budget responsibility.

  160. Anagach says:

    sensibledave says: Dave hasn’t “got it”

    Well you have not got it.

    Some issues have been removed from the UK Parliament due to devolution.

    The attempt to limit which MPs can vote on which issues before the UK Parliament is not a workable way to re-balance devolution but to unbalance the UK Parliament.

    If Westminster is going to have English votes for English Issues, why not Scottish votes for Scottish Issues, etc etc…

  161. sensibledave says:

    Robert Louis 12:02

    “Considering the problems it will cause for the Tories and Labour, the fact it will speed up Scottish independence and the fact that the legislative outcome will be no different, it truly must be one of the stupidest moves ever made by ANY Government anywhere, ever.”

    … So what pray, is all the bitching about?

  162. Chris Baxter says:

    heedtracker:

    “He’s actually quite scary but even so.”

    None of them are scary. They’re sad clowns who would behave very differently were you to speak to their face.

    In other words: cowards.

  163. sensibledave says:

    gus1940 12:04 pm

    You Wrote: “After yesterday’s disgraceful EVEL crime against democracy how long till Scottish, Welsh and NI MPs have to wear armbands to identify themselves and prevent them entering the lobbies when EVEL business is being voted on?”

    …..SMPWVOEOLDEOLWOBPITUPISMVFT!

  164. sensibledave says:

    Jim says: 12:05 pm

    You wrote “All UK MPs no matter where their constituency is would have to have a say on where UK money is allocated.”

    …. Yes Jim – you’ve “got it” but, unfortunately, I don’t think you know you have!

    … SMPWVOEOLDEOLWOBPITUPISMVFT!

  165. heedtracker says:

    Chris Baxter says:
    23 October, 2015 at 12:11 pm
    heedtracker:

    “He’s actually quite scary but even so.”

    Most of them are hard core toryboys but Massie sometimes quite liberal, then BAM, he’s back in the far right game, is why.

    To be fair, most of them are wetfarts and chancers.

    https://twitter.com/FraserNelson?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

    Horatio here is interesting to watch how for the how and why far right UKOK propaganda works at its lowest, no mention of EVEL whatsoever, shock.

  166. TD says:

    sensibledave at 12:02

    So is it OK for the English-dominated UK parliament to pass laws that a majority of Scottish MPs do not want?

    Total hypocrisy.

  167. John H. says:

    Compare the arrogance shown by the Westminster Establishment towards Scotland with the embarrassing fawning that took place when their Chinese master visited them earlier in the week. Classic public schoolboy bullying behaviour, straight out of Tom Brown’s schooldays.

  168. Jim says:

    sensibledave says:
    You wrote “All UK MPs no matter where their constituency is would have to have a say on where UK money is allocated.”

    …. Yes Jim – you’ve “got it” but, unfortunately, I don’t think you know you have!
    _______
    If I knew I had it I wouldn’t have asked the question so clarify your response.

  169. Sunniva says:

    Jim, yes it does. As long as the fiscal union remains – one Treasury which collects and disburses all money, one Exchequer, then there can be few ‘English’ laws without a financial implication for the whole of the UK. One example of an exception might be a fox-hunting ban in England. Other areas might be things like gay marriage or euthanasia.

    But if a law is passed which involves money, then all of the UK will feel it, even if the law claims to be limited only to England and Wales.

    The problem is the fiscal union. Until such times as we in Scotland have the sovereign right to set, gather and apply all our own revenues, then it will persist, made far worse by the unequal sizes of Scotland and England. If England sneezes, there’s tsunami in Scotland.

  170. Bob Mack says:

    Bottom line.

    English MP’s decide what is best for England.
    They then go into a changing room ,put on their other clothes and decide what is best for Gt Britain.
    Nice arrangement.——for England

  171. sensibledave says:

    Anagach 12:08 pm

    You wrote: “The attempt to limit which MPs can vote on which issues before the UK Parliament is not a workable way to re-balance devolution but to unbalance the UK Parliament.”

    …..SMPWVOEOLDEOLWOBPITUPISMVFT!

  172. JayR says:

    OT

    When are SNP parliamentarians going to grow a pair and stand up for themselves when appearing on the BBC?

    Last week on “The Big Debate” Gordon Brewer constantly interrupted the SNP’s James Dornan and interrogated him, yet let Prof Tomkins and all the other guests ramble on unchallenged. Today, the SNP’s Drew Hendry is getting the same, and everyone else is allowed to ramble on.

    John Nicolson MP and some of the party’s other media advisers really need to coach the parliamentarians and put some steel in them. They should say something along the lines of “Gordon, if you’d actually please let me speak, instead of constantly interrupting me. There’s no point in me being invited onto this programme if you constantly interrupt me every time that you invite me to comment”

    Come on guys and gals, don’t take any BBC shit!

  173. TD says:

    Xaracen at 11:58

    “How English laws are passed is indeed a matter for the English”

    I think you misunderstand my point. At the moment English laws are passed by the UK parliament. But if England wanted their own parliament I do not believe there would be any opposition from Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. The words “How English laws are passed…” was meant to convey the constitutional options for England rather than to represent the current constitutional arrangement.

    If England wanted to change their arrangements that would be a matter for them. Or if they want to continue to have their legislation passed by the UK unitary parliament, that’s fine as well. It’s up to them. But what is not acceptable is to meddle with the current UK parliament’s arrangements without the agreement of the other parts of the UK.

    Hope that clarifies my meaning.

  174. sensibledave says:

    Jim 12:22 pm

    You wrote “All UK MPs no matter where their constituency is would have to have a say on where UK money is allocated.”

    and …. “If I knew I had it I wouldn’t have asked the question so clarify your response.”

    … to clarify Jim, Your assertion i.e. that all MPs, no matter where their constituency is, should have a vote on where UK money is allocated – is exactly what EVEL does.

    … SMPWVOEOLDEOLWOBPITUPISMVFT!

  175. Iain More says:

    Well I hope to see an Independent English Parly one day since that would mean and Indy Scots Parly.

    I note from what I have seen of the dead tree Press front pages so far that English votes for Scots Laws has barely raised an eyebrow. I note that unelected Tory Peers votes for Scottish Laws barely rates a whisper. Well going by what I have seen today so far.

    Well roll on the next piece of iniquitous Legislation to see it in practice for all to see.

    Out of curiosity does anybody know what the next piece of Westmidden legislation will be to put the boot into us?

  176. Jim says:

    Sunniva says:

    Jim, yes it does. As long as the fiscal union remains – one Treasury which collects and disburses all money, one Exchequer, then there can be few ‘English’ laws without a financial implication for the whole of the UK. One example of an exception might be a fox-hunting ban in England. Other areas might be things like gay marriage or euthanasia.
    _______
    Thank you for your response as I am sure there are lot’s of others in the same position as myself that are unsure what all of this entails.

    I assumed EVEL to be exactly for matters of policy such as fox hunting, gay marriage, abortion law, etc.

    I did not assume that it would involve the expenditure of UK treasury money on projects in England and certainly not on expenditure that would affect the block grant and formula system.

  177. Xaracen says:

    “… to stop “English Only” laws being passed that the majority of English MPs don’t want passed.

    Awful isn’t it!

    Well, if it is so important to you that a region of the UK needs its MPs to have such a veto, then it must be equally important to you that the other regions’ MPs have an equivalent veto. Otherwise it is just more of the “England is special” crap.

    To provide such a veto only for English MPs and not for any of the others is nothing less than deliberate discrimination by the government of the UK. Well, bugger that!

  178. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    sensibldave has no idea when he wasting his time. Great fun

  179. Jim says:

    sensibledave says:
    23 October, 2015 at 12:32 pm

    … to clarify Jim, Your assertion i.e. that all MPs, no matter where their constituency is, should have a vote on where UK money is allocated – is exactly what EVEL does.
    ________
    Play Devil’s advocate and explain it from your opposition’s point of view so I can better understand what all the fuss is about.

  180. Proud Cybernat says:

    The situation is crystalising:

    Second Class? Or Second referendum?

  181. Andrew McLean says:

    Jim Says

    HS2 on the Institute of Economic Affairs will cost £80 billion, Will this come under EVEL, I believe so as here there will be no Barnett consequentials, just as there were not for Crossrail or the Olympics.
    EVEL reminds me when I caught my jumper on a piece of wire when jumping over a fence, as I walked on it unraveled, not to much but enough to ruin the jumper. Here’s hoping!

  182. Bob Mack says:

    @sensibledave,

    Presumably England will have it’s own Barnett allocation whilst the remaining is kept in a central pot ?

  183. TD says:

    The Scotland Act 1998 has 6 parts, 132 Sections and 9 Schedules. The Scotland Act 2012 has 4 Parts, 45 Sections and 4 Schedules. Both were Acts of the UK parliament and were subjected to months of parliamentary scrutiny, amendment and several parliamentary votes. These two pieces of legislation between them define what can be dealt with in the Scottish Parliament and what is reserved to Westminster. They define devolution for Scotland in its current form.

    EVEL has not been the subject of an Act of Parliament. There has been no consultation and minimal parliamentary scrutiny. The proposals have been steam-rollered through parliament using the absolute majority that the tories enjoy because of their 36.9% share of the popular vote in the UK. The undemocratic creation of an underclass of MPs has been brought about by a change in parliamentary procedures.

    When legislation is proposed for Scotland only, the two Scotland Acts guide and inform whether it is a matter for the Scottish Parliament. When legislation is required for England only, the Speaker will decide whether it is “English only” and therefore whether 59 Scottish MPs are excluded from the English Grand Committee.

    But we are assured that this is all fair and reasonable and that we should not get upset about it.

    SNP/SNP Yes.

  184. heedtracker says:

    sensibldave has no idea when he wasting his time. Great fun

    He is but he’s also another UKOK activist fraud pretending to be joe public in the south east of teamGEnglandB.

  185. scott says:

    JayR says:

    23 October, 2015 at 12:28 pm
    OT
    This about being interrupted I noted on newsnight that
    Shelley Jofre is also at it 4 times she butted in on Dorin but let Baillie ramble on SNP bad I think when asked a question say nothing and if asked why then they could I will only answer if you stop interrupting.

  186. Ruby says:

    Iain More says:
    23 October, 2015 at 12:33 pm

    Well I hope to see an Independent English Parly one day since that would mean and Indy Scots Parly.

    Ruby replies,

    I think what were are seeing now is the Tories turning into the ENP. They certainly seem to have those David Cameron describes as ‘Little Englanders’ on their side.

    ‘The Tories do not need to convince the English that they are on their side. While David Cameron’s UK-wide majority is just 12 it is a massive 104 across England only.

    Go to the “England profile” on the BBC’s website and you’ll read that “Scottish and Welsh nationalist movements have long been part of the political mainstream, and are seen as champions of legitimate historical national identities”. “On the other hand,” declares the BBC, English nationalism “has often been portrayed as a reaction to non-white immigration and seen as largely the province of the far right”.

    Really? English patriotism has “often been portrayed” in the most negative way by the, ahem, BBC but the St George’s flag has long been reclaimed from racist skinheads; 61 per cent of English voters support English MPs having supremacy on English-only issues. Only one quarter are opposed. Wanting England to have some — just some — of the devolution that the rest of the UK already has does not turn Sassenachs into far-righters.

    From Times article entitled ‘Jeremy Corbyn needs to learn to love England’

  187. Cloggins says:

    I sorely miss the “Women’s vote for Women’s Issues” in which a male speaker gets to decide what women’s issues are.

  188. sensibledave says:

    Dave McEwan Hill at 12:48 pm

    You wrote “sensibldave has no idea when he wasting his time. Great fun”

    On the contrary Dave, there are a few stragglers left who haven’t got a clue about how EVEL works – but most have “got it” and understand SMPWVOEOLDEOLWOBPITUPISMVFT now.

    As for wasting my time, there will always be the Dave McEwan Hills of this world that do not have the grey matter to grasp relatively simple concepts – but that is a cross I will have to bear.

  189. Iain says:

    Sensible Dave is a great recruiting sergeant for the SNP. He makes most watchers of this site more determined to vote snp, snp in May.

  190. Bob Mack says:

    @Iain,

    Agreed. He makes perfecr sense——To himself only.

  191. Andrew McLean says:

    Where does EVEL leave the Labour party in Scotland now? Surely it’s time for them to break away completely, there is now no need for a “National Party”. Why have a Unionist party at all in Scotland?
    As robert says “one of the stupidest moves ever made by ANY Government anywhere, ever.” did no one tell them it’s a bad idea to pour petrol on a fire!

  192. heedtracker says:

    Nana Smith says:
    23 October, 2015 at 1:02 pm
    Dictatorship to rival North Korea is what the tories are aiming for.

    Fascinating power struggle, all unreported by English media in Scotland. Its very mental really.

    Toryboy world went weak at the knees over torygirl Laura Keunsberg, supersonic BBC politics boss giving China leader a hard time with

    http://order-order.com/2015/10/21/laura-k-v-president-xi/

    LK: “Why do you think members of the British public should be pleased to do more business with a country that is not democratic, is not transparent and has a deeply, deeply troubling attitude towards human rights?”

    Chinese Premiers standing next to Pig Fanciers Cammers who a couple of weeks back ordered the execution without trial of UK citizens by killer robot drone planes. And how many are now dead, maimed, tortured, made refugee by UKOK Iraq invasion now?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3225283/David-Cameron-makes-counter-terror-announcement-Commons.html

    Laura didn’t bring up any of the above, oddly enough.

  193. galamcennalath says:

    Bob Mack says:

    @sensibledave,

    Presumably England will have it’s own Barnett allocation whilst the remaining is kept in a central pot ?

    Definitely not!

    As far as I am concerned, therein lies the problem.

    I think we would all feel a lot better if English MPs were debating and passing legislation relating to England using money from an English budget!

    On the face of it, that seems fair and reasonable. of course, ‘fair and reasonable’ doesn’t exactly feature in Tory thinking.

  194. Sinky says:

    Joanna Cherry MP has pointed out that four Tories and two Labour MPs have been nominated along with six Members of the House of Lords to serve on a new Westminster body on human rights.

    Given that Joanna Cherry is the Justice and Home Affairs spokesperson for the third largest party in UK Parliament
    and was a senior QC and a Senior Advocate it is nonsense that Labour refused to support her inclusion as at least one senior Scottish legal figure on this committee.

    More respect for Scotland?

    MPs vote on the matter next Wednesday.

  195. Sunniva says:

    Hi Jim, thanks for the reply. In my view, the idea of English only laws is a chimera. Only if laws have no fiscal and financial implications, such as euthanasia, abortion, gay rights, fox-hunting, pub closing times, age of consent – things that are of an ethical or moral nature – and are restricted only to England – can they really be referred to as ‘English-only’. I personally have no beef with the people of England coming to their own views on such things.

    But it’s the money they’re moaning about. They are moaning about Scottish MPs voting on English hospitals (funding). But as long as we are joined at the hip fiscally, then any changes to the English NHS, or things like funding for Crossrail, are going to affect the common pot.

    It’s a case of England sneezing, and there being a tsunami in Scotland.

    Plus, in reality, the votes of Scottish MPs has made a difference to the outcomes 0.65% of the time since 2001. According to the House of Commons Library.

    So English MPs have had their way 99.35% of the time, and they think that’s unfair.

  196. scottieDog says:

    I don’t think the tories are on the side of the English. They are on the side of the financial establishment. That is the private establishment in charge of money creation and wealth extraction. There is plenty of deprivation down south.

    What scotland needs to start doing, like the common weal are suggesting, is to start implementing what we can now. We also need to get our ducks in a row regarding currency for example.
    We will have all the neoliberal ‘big guns’ pointing at us explaining in the MSM why it will never work. The ratings agencies will be foaming at the mouth talking about our junk status. To me that is fine – the same agencies gave Enron a clean bill of health…

    We will be told that no one will lend to us except at high interest rates. This of course is utter horse shit.

    If anyone wants to see a huge govt debt to GDP ratio see Japan and then try to work out how it is still ‘borrowing’ at around 0%.
    The reason is simple – it has its own sovereign currency, can issue bonds all day long and can never default. UK is same and scotland would be with a sovereign free floating currency.

  197. Ruby says:

    Iain says:
    23 October, 2015 at 1:05 pm

    Sensible Dave is a great recruiting sergeant for the SNP. He makes most watchers of this site more determined to vote snp, snp in May.

    Ruby replies

    That is if they read his posts! I see the name ‘sensible dave’ and think I’m not reading that shite!

    What is Cloggins going on about! Womens votes!! Does Cloggins not know here place? Women and Scotland have to learn to be good little Stepford Wives. Mr Westminster makes all the decisions! Women and Scotland need to learn to stand by their man it’s what the majority in Scotland voted for.

  198. Anagach says:

    sensibledave says:

    …..SMPWVOEOLDEOLWOBPITUPISMVFT!

    Your evolution from Trolling to Spamming is regressive.

    But not unexpected.

  199. Marie Clark says:

    Sigh, I am finding all of this constant crap wearing.

    Anything and everything, every bloody day. SNP BAAAAAAD. Don’t matter whether it’s true or not, on and on it goes. I don’t even think anyone listens anymore.

    Now, the absolute madness that is EVIL. I really and truly don’t think any of the numpties have thought this through. Oh well, they might reap the whirlwind now. God help us all.

    O/T Where’s Robert Peffers? Is he all right? He did say a few topics back that he wasn’t just too well. Hope he’s okay.

    Or mabye he’s like myself, and one or two others, just having a wee break from the crapfest.

  200. Alistair says:

    The Scottish Government should bring in legislation for Nationalist Votes for Nationalst MSP’s leaving Conservitive, Labour and Liberal MSP’s as second class MSP’ in Holyrood.

  201. galamcennalath says:

    “Only if laws have no fiscal and financial implications, such as ….. things that are of an ethical or moral nature – and are restricted only to England – can they really be referred to as ‘English-only’.”

    Precisely!

    Otherwise, there is an element of taxation without representation.

  202. Quakeawake says:

    @JLT 10.11am Thank you for that post, which is the clearest analysis of the problem with EVEL for Scotland that I’ve seen.

    “If you want an ‘English Parliament’, then build a separate building, fill it with English MP’s and do what the rest of the UK has done instead of abusing the systems at Westminster.” AYE!

    EVEL from the Conservatives. So fitting.

    I used to live in the south of England and still have family there. Here is what the Conservatives stand for. They want to “conserve” what they’ve got, along with their narrow view of little England and they want to do it at all costs.

    “Conservatism” is based on the principle there is not enough to go round – everything is scarce – conserve, conserve, conserve! In which case, they say, we’d better make sure we’ve got as much of it as we can get so we’re alright.

    It’s a deep seated English belief that drove their colonialism and continues to drive the elitism of today. As their fields of influence have narrowed in modern times, the leaders and their hangers on have increased the extreme nature of their own wealth at the expense of the rest of us.

    They’re also leaving high and dry the very many little Englanders who have been brought up with a conservative mentality. Ironically, both they and their masters believe there isn’t enough room for them all at the troughs.

    They are left to bleat their hopeless, intolerant and vacuously arrogant beliefs at the rest of us, whilst slipping slowly down the greasy flagpole towards what they see as the unitiated masses.

    That’s us. We in Scotland, with our talk of social justice, hope, responsibility and equality, are their darkest threat.

    I have a message for those sad souls. There is enough. There is enough for all of us if we look to the well-being of all the people, stop warmongering, stop blaming and vilifying sections of our society and start sharing responsibility among us all; start valuing what each of us CAN DO, not judging each other for what we HAVEN’T GOT.

    With EVEL, the leaders of the tribe have thrown their followers a bone they can chew on and then use it to try to beat us with if they like, but it’s just another hopeless, grubby distraction.

    We’ve got hope and we’ve got a vision and that will triumph over EVEL.

  203. AndyH says:

    scottieDog is spot on

    Time to start laying Foundations.

    National Bank we can trust for starters and nail the currency.

    SNP needs to start upping their game. They still come across as a bit weak on economic issues and that’s what the Union prey on.

    I hope they have a cunning master plan.

  204. sensibledave says:

    Jim says

    “Play Devil’s advocate and explain it from your opposition’s point of view so I can better understand what all the fuss is about.”

    Okay.

    The SNP asserts that EVEL makes them second class citizen as far as being a members of the UK Parliament is concerned. They are distraught, that with the implementation of EVEL, democracy has died. As you can see from so many of the comments above, the SNP spin machine went into top gear and completely misled many of their members (check out their website and see my responses to each of the points made on the web site)

    In actuality, SNP MPs, like all MPs gets to raise Bills. In addition, the SNP gets to vote on all bills brought forward by all Governments of any flavour. SNP MPS get to vote three times on whether a Bill, any Bill, is passed.

    If, a Bill has been ruled as “English Only” a Grand Committee of English MPs will get involved in a separate debate attended only by English MPs.

    This happens once a Bill has been passed by the House twice already.

    That committee will then either vote for the Bill (and it carries on along its way), or vote to veto it.

    Despite the wailing above, it is impossible to understand how anyone could possibly have a problem with English MPs voting for a Bill that has been passed by the UK Parliament.

    So, the only issue arises if English MPs choose to veto a Bill that is an “English Only” issue. Some here on Wings think that is an outrage. The very idea that English MPs should be able vote to veto a law that only affects England is the end of the world, the Union is dead, and yet another example of English colonialism.

    I disagree.

  205. Macca73 says:

    I saw footage this morning of Tommy Sheppard warning of the dangers of this vote going through. We all know now that it did but from the tone of the way that Tommy spoke gave the impression that he KNEW that the act of union was being broken.

    There was ways that this could have been implemented but the simple step now of using the UK parliment instead of having bespoke E(nglish) MP and an English parliment building now renders the whole thing a farce and we are now in a situation where party members on all sides will have to remove themselves from the chamber because they hold a Scottish seat!!

    I’ve seen the SNP’s statement this morning … interesting times are ahead of us.

  206. sensibledave says:

    Sunniva 1:27 pm

    You wrote “Hi Jim, thanks for the reply. In my view, the idea of English only laws is a chimera. Only if laws have no fiscal and financial implications, such as euthanasia, abortion, gay rights, fox-hunting, pub closing times, age of consent – things that are of an ethical or moral nature – and are restricted only to England – can they really be referred to as ‘English-only’. I personally have no beef with the people of England coming to their own views on such things.”

    … Good. We are making progress.

    But then you wrote “But it’s the money they’re moaning about. They are moaning about Scottish MPs voting on English hospitals (funding). But as long as we are joined at the hip fiscally, then any changes to the English NHS, or things like funding for Crossrail, are going to affect the common pot.”

    It’s a case of England sneezing, and there being a tsunami in Scotland.”

    … then you lost it again! SMPWVOEOLDEOLWOBPITUPISMVFT

  207. TD says:

    sensible – I despair. The whole point is that the process for deciding if a bill is English only is that the Speaker just makes a decision. It is not a proper process, it is not subject to scrutiny, there are no proper guidelines, the decisions could be arbitrary and whimsical. And the change has been introduced without proper legislation, but instead on a parliamentary nod.

    I could try your technique of creating a lengthy acronym so here goes. (The block capitals by the way make it more important and meaningful as you know). IF YOU WANT EVEL CREATE AN ENGLISH PARLIAMENT. So that’s IYECAEP. Or maybe I’ll make that IYE CrAEP. Or just Aye, Crap.

  208. schrodingers cat says:

    sensibledave says:

    “that is a cross I will have to bear”

    no it isn’t, you’re free to fuck off anytime you like

  209. Nana Smith says:

    @Marie Clark

    Robert posted on previous thread at 11.44pm

  210. Jamie Arriere says:

    I am utterly delighted and totally relaxed that EVEL has arrived for several reasons

    1] A new faultline has been established right through the chamber of the House of Commons, where previously chambers in just Holyrood, Cardiff & Belfast were to Westminster mostly out of sight & out of mind.

    2] Every political consideration and debate will now include a consideration over whether Scotland has an interest in it – many will largely be indirect and therefore continual disputes will break out as to whether Scottish MPs will be allowed to vote or not. And even if they are, loads of Tory MPS will argue we should publicly.

    Everyone is making the mistake that every issue will be cut-and-dried, or that either side will be happy with every decision made. The Britnat Press will be full of whether Scots etc should be excluded – ‘Don’t let the Jocks vote this down’. The Speaker’s job is about to get a whole lot busier, and may become impossible.

    3] The separation of non-English MPs from English bills makes it likelier than ever that England will go in an even more divergent route than the rest of UK, particularly with regard to failing health trusts.

    Yes. Scottish etc MPs will be able to debate & vote, but if they are vetoed it will be clearer to all how little influence they can have, and that we are wasting our time

    4] The fact that the Tories have been able to vote this through in less than half-a-year without White Papers, royal commissions, referendum or even any form of public consultation beyond the GE – while the rest of us have had to campaign, lobby,march, vote and wait for DECADES, and are still waiting for the diluted inadequate Smith Commission pish – will not be lost on anyone.

    Who knew the West Lothian Question was so easy to answer. We are no longer partners but minorities

    Independence is closer now

  211. yesindyref2 says:

    @sensibledave (first reading = no debate)

    “Formal introduction – no debate on the Bill

    First reading is the first stage of a Bill’s passage through the House of Commons – usually a formality, it takes place without debate.

    First reading of a Bill can take place at any time in a parliamentary session.
    What happens at first reading?

    The short title of the Bill is read out and is followed by an order for the Bill to be printed.

    http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/laws/passage-bill/commons/coms-commons-first-reading/

  212. Papadox says:

    Jesus Christ, the English establishment have even got the “Windsors” in on the SNPBAAAD. Scotland to poor, to stupid, to wee and handing out wee butchers aprons to the kids in Dundee.

    Either the English establishment are trying to provoke another referendum while they have a chance of winning and thereby close off any nonsense about another within 30years. A lot of oil money will be plundered in 30 years.

    Or they are suffering loose bowel syndrome, very acutely.

  213. Andrew McLean says:

    Sensitive dave

    WE GET IT,
    and most here don’t have a problem, we are by and large SNP supporters so agree, and don’t meddle in internal affairs for england. Its Labour Liberal and Tory mps from scotland who voted on english only matters!

    But you don’t get what this represents, the westminster union is built on the premise that all MP are equal, for the first time rules have been put in place to exclude (for key parts of the debate) based on nationality, do you not see how that fundamentally changes the union! This is a recipe for disaster, I love it! I want to end the Union, looks like David Cameron agrees!

  214. Alastair says:

    There has just been a vote in the HoC 16 for 1 against. 40 members in the house and only 17 members vote on progressing legislation. An error of comedies.

  215. Les Wilson says:

    Quakeawake says:

    Good post, well done.

  216. Sunniva says:

    sensible dave: gwepmjl!1/)&epmAM

  217. galamcennalath says:

    Papadox says:

    “the English establishment are trying to provoke another referendum while they have a chance of winning and thereby close off any nonsense about another within 30years”

    That thought occurred to me. I posted something (this or last few threads) saying something similar.

    It could also be part of current assault on the SNP pre May. Challenge, and if nothing is done about it, it shows shows the SNP won’t stand up for Scotland like the claim (or something like that).

    It could be provocation. What to you do with someone who annoyingly stays on the straight and narrow rising above bad behaviour (like the SNP try to do) ? Simple, you try to provoke them into over reaction.

    We can get carried away with conspiracy theories! However, anything is possible in the defence of the realm.

  218. yesindyref2 says:

    @sensibledave
    You appear to be ignoring this bir from the SNP explanation of EVEL:

    Stage four

    The Bill will go through its fourth stage before progressing to the House of Lords.

    ? Post House of Lords stage

    The legislative process in the House of Lords is unchanged. However any amendments made in the House of Lords which relate exclusively to England, or England and Wales, will be subject to a double majority vote.

    This means that these amendments will have to be supported by a majority of English, or English and Welsh MPs, as well as a majority of all MPs, before they become law.

    Finance Bills will also go through this new procedure.”

    Note also “Finance Bills will also go through this new procedure.”

    That would appear to include the Budget …

  219. yesindyref2 says:

    I wonder if there’ll be a follow-up to EVEL called ELVL – English Lords for English Votes – excluding Michelle Mone and her ilk?

  220. Iain Hamilton says:

    @Sensible Dave,

    Greetings.

    Apologies if I have missed this point being raised in answer to your POV on EVEL, but my eyes were starting to bleed.

    Why should English MPs have a veto over English matters when *every* amendment put forward by the SNP to the Scotland Bill was defeated by English MPs who didn’t even show up for any of the debates?

    Missed any points being raised by the MPs representing the people most affected by the Bill. Had no thought for engaging or being willing to listen and possibly be convinced by cogent argument.

    Voted on matters which were particular to Scotland only.

    An English Parliament would be great. They could be allocated a budget, forbidden from borrowing, have to survive and allocate spending from within a fixed amount.

    There would have to be a lot more transparency and everyone in the UK would be able to see where the money goes…

    Ahh right…

    Still, please tell us how you felt when the Scotland Bill was forced through by English MPs. Did you think that was fair?

  221. Jim says:

    Sunniva says:
    23 October, 2015 at 1:27 pm

    Hi Jim, thanks for the reply. In my view, the idea of English only laws is a chimera. Only if laws have no fiscal and financial implications, such as euthanasia, abortion, gay rights, fox-hunting, pub closing times, age of consent – things that are of an ethical or moral nature – and are restricted only to England – can they really be referred to as ‘English-only’. I personally have no beef with the people of England coming to their own views on such things.
    ___________
    Thank you, this is my take on it exactly which is why England should have it’s own assembly/parliament in which such matters would be devolved to that assembly/parliament.

    They would also have their own block grant and formula system to fund policing, health and education, etc.

    As it is there is no way that England should have free access to UK treasury funds without the approval of the MPs of all member states.

    “But it’s the money they’re moaning about. They are moaning about Scottish MPs voting on English hospitals (funding). But as long as we are joined at the hip fiscally, then any changes to the English NHS, or things like funding for Crossrail, are going to affect the common pot.”
    _______________________
    NHS funding in England is indeed a matter for England but if it affects the block grant of another country then it no longer becomes an English only matter.

    Again, England needs to have it’s own parliament with it’s own budget and responsibility which do not impact on other members of the union.

    “It’s a case of England sneezing, and there being a tsunami in Scotland.”
    _________

    This is maybe one tsunami that they have lost control over and the consequences for the so-called Union are not looking good.

    “Plus, in reality, the votes of Scottish MPs has made a difference to the outcomes 0.65% of the time since 2001. According to the House of Commons Library So English MPs have had their way 99.35% of the time, and they think that’s unfair..”
    _____________
    I have never understood how before the Scottish parliament was reconvened there was never any mechanism in place to make sure that all member states were represented fairly and equally.

    Renegotiation of our membership of the UK needs to happen if there is any hope for the Unionists; the only way forward is for England to have it’s own parliament and all matters bar defense and foreign affairs to be devolved to each member state.

    Obviously there would have to be a UK parliament to deal with foreign affairs, defense budgets and block grants to member states, etc, but this would have to comprise of a democratically elected and equal number of MPs from each member state.

  222. yesindyref2 says:

    It also occurs to me that the independent parliament pay commission whatever they’re called, will soon be insisting English MPs, as they’re doing the business for the UK Parliament and the proto-English parliament, they should get a 75% pay rise?

    Not forgetting Cameron is Prime Minister of the UK AND Prime Minister of England. Oh, plus all the ministers and shadows and secretaries of State. Oh what fun we all had.

    That reminds me by the way, I managed to get “WOS” into the Herald forum as a “typo” for “SOS” when talking about Mundell. I wonder what I thought the “W” stands for in his title? Well, W is just above S on the keybiard.

  223. heedtracker says:

    schrodingers cat says:
    23 October, 2015 at 1:57 pm
    sensibledave says:

    “that is a cross I will have to bear

    I don’t know though, it’s interesting watching the BBC/English media in Scotand and England spectacularly bury EVEL, as activists like sensible get busy with their, it’s nothing shut up, fraud. It must be very frustrating having total control of just the BBC but just not enough people can be threatened or conned. Maybe just enough is good enough for UKOK unionists.

    See the great keverage.com has come back with even more monstering of SNP McAlpine, after making a public spectacle/fool of himself last week over his whisky duty freak out at her. His fellow cyber Britnat travellers of the right now want him to stand as MSP, so do I.

    It’s a Toryboy world but they’re not very bright.

  224. Marie Clark says:

    Thanks for the info Nana.

  225. frogesque says:

    at 1:37 pm
    scottieDog is spot on

    Time to start laying Foundations.

    National Bank we can trust for starters and nail the currency.

    SNP needs to start upping their game. They still come across as a bit weak on economic issues and that’s what the Union prey on.

    I hope they have a cunning master plan.

    Spot on – been talking about this elsewhere since before the IRef.

    I don’t care whether we use the Scots Pound, Cowrie shells or the Lumphinnans Limpet. We need an independent currency NOW. We can use it in parallel to the Pound but once it becomes accepted and in common use folk will not think twice about whether their pension, wages etc. get paid in it.

    The Pound is a FIAT currency – it is only worth what other people think its worth. There is nothing special or important about it – it’s just another token like the Dollar, Yen or Euro.

  226. Achnababan says:

    Can anyone work out how many times in the last 10, 20 years legislation has been passed in Westmonster that a majority of Scottish MPS voted against?

  227. Proud Cybernat says:

    So, if the SNP decided to take places in the Lords (unlikely, I know) to try and scupper these bills they have no say on but which have a knock-on effect in Scotland would that then mean that we would have English Votes for English Lords? Would they then cut the rights of non-English ‘Lords’ in the HoL?

    How ironic it is that, at present, Baroness Mone of Nae Money could end up with more voting power over Scotland’s affairs than its democratically elected representatives.

    We gotta get outta this place.

  228. yesindyref2 says:

    @me said
    good grief I got that wrong

    ELEL – English Lords for English Laws.

    Spain would love it.

  229. Al Dossary says:

    National bank – What a thought.

    Just imagine the impact of 52% of the Scottish population closing their accounts and transferring everything to a be “Scottish bank”.

    Where do I sign up !

  230. Sunniva says:

    Hi Jim, well, before devolution, there was the Scottish Office, also the NI Office, and also the Welsh Office, I believe. There was also a thing called the Scottish Grand Committee, of MPs, on which the current English Grand Committee is based that will scrutinise the second stage of ‘England-only’ bills.

    The Secretary of State for Scotland was, and still is, a member of the Cabinet. This office has always been a bit weird. He wore two hats, normally, advising the government on Scottish affairs and issues, whilst steering goodies towards Scotland whenever he could. Some were better than others. Tom Johnstone was SoS for Scotland during the war, though he was Labour, and managed to get Churchill to agree to fund hydro-schemes in the Highlands as a reward for his loyalty. As long as Labour or Tories felt they had some electoral interests in Scotland to defend, SoS’s could get some jam for Scotland, but it was always trimmings, really, nothing radical, and their efforts failed to deal with the post-war de-industrialisation and problems that Scotland has suffered as a result of not being self-governing.

    With devolution questions were asked what the SoS was actually for. And whether the post was still needed… Was he Scotland’s man in the Cabinet? Or the government’s man in Scotland?

    You decide!

  231. heedtracker says:

    Kevin Hague ?@kevverage 5h5 hours ago
    Me vs. @JoanMcAlpine in today’s @Daily_Record
    I’m starting to think Joan really doesn’t understood GERS figures

    Another graceless I’m right, you’re wrong from Scotch duty obsessive vote NO you moron,s kevarage.

    What this unionist toryboy does do is highlight the various why’s Scottish democracy is such a threat to the present UKOK red and blue toryboy world of their Scotland region.

    Everyone knows the Scotch whisky industry was rabid NO Sept 18 but they were terrified that people like their employees or their suppliers of barley or Holyrood Scots.gov might start askng and then taking at least some of their multi billion dollar profits, via PR democracy Holyrood, in an independent Soctland, without the grip of Westminster and the BBC round its neck.

    So once again, that just ain’t going to UKOK happen.

    Keep on making a fool of yourself, unionistas like sensible and keverage too.

  232. Macart says:

    @Yesindyref2

    Heh, budget debates should be interesting right enough. No allowance for a budget formula for EVEL as for properly devolved assemblies. Potentially any major infrastructure projects or services amendments could have knock on effects for said devolved assemblies.

    Let’s see how parliament handles this, though I suspect it won’t take long for the other shoe to drop.

  233. sensibledave says:

    Jim says 2:27 pm

    You wrote: “Thank you, this is my take on it exactly which is why England should have it’s own assembly/parliament in which such matters would be devolved to that assembly/parliament.”

    …. I respect your opinion – but it isn’t what the English want.

    Then you wrote: “As it is there is no way that England should have free access to UK treasury funds without the approval of the MPs of all member states.

    … Oh God … SMPWVOEOLDEOLWOBPITUPISMVFT

  234. schrodingers cat says:

    @heedtracker

    in truth, the English mps always had a majority in Westminster, nothing has changed really. except now we have a grievance grenade we can lob at the unionists about the English parliament in Westminster.

    EVEL only serves to highlight and make this point for us.

    hope the rev waits a few days before carrying out his next poll.

    one question we forgot to ask him to put into the next poll…

    do you think Scotland should be an independent country….

    id be very interested in the result

  235. heedtracker says:

    … Oh God … SMPWVOEOLDEOLWOBPITUPISMVFT

    What does that mean sensible? Sorry but you’re really UKOK unionist boring, today so brevity is the soul of sneaky creepy UKOK activism eh?

    Brevity is something a lot of unionist hardcore toryboys like you and kevarage up there could benefit from.

  236. schrodingers cat says:

    It’s a Toryboy world but they’re not very bright.

    that’s because of the restricted tory gene pool here in Scotland

  237. Bob Mack says:

    @heedtracker.

    It means DAVEISAFANNY

  238. manandboy says:

    More and more this is no longer Wings over Scotland, but ‘sensibledave over Scotland’. The drop in enjoyment is very considerable when sensible’s around.

  239. heedtracker says:

    EVEL only serves to highlight and make this point for us.

    Indeed. Or as toryboy sensibledave says … Oh God … SMPWVOEOLDEOLWOBPITUPISMVFT

    I dont know what that means. Maybe sensible’s had a UKOK breakdown. On Kevarage unionista fury at McAlpine, why do scotch whisky profiteers make so much profit in the north east of Scotland what produces lads like recently kicked out of office Sir Daniel here, proudly doin stuff like opening soup kitchens in Inverness

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-pride-of-britain/

    and/or

    https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/scotland/556322/steady-rise-people-using-food-banks/

    Watching hardcore toryboy unionists like sensibledave or kevarage, graceless as ever in making a UKOK fool of himself and you have to ask, did the YES campaign really get it right.

    I am not a trot or commie, like new Lab leader JC:D

  240. Cactus says:

    Sunniva @ 10:59hrs

    Couldn’t MPs just defy EVEL and turn up at ‘English only’ debates and attempt to be heard (one way or another….) and attempt to vote? It would make great political theatre if they did. That was what Parnell and the Irish National Party attempted to do in the 19th century by philibustering.

    Hi Sunniva, good idea.. although they’d probably put up a ‘major incident’ cordon around the chamber doorways like they did at a recent party conference, with signs on the doors..

    DO NOT DISTURB – EVEL in progress

    I sense a new toon in the making.. it’s Saturday tomorrow.. Hamish to the rescue!

  241. Fran says:

    @ manandboy

    That is what is aim is, its to disrupt.

    He is enjoying the reaction from us and the attention

  242. JayR says:

    scott says
    @ 12:59pm

    Agree with that scott. If the SNP representatives mention this and highlight it, then people will notice that and start paying attention to the bias. It also helps highlight the bias in the first place. The unionist MSM assholes only ever play dirty, it’s high time we started doing the same.

    I’m also wondering, if you join the Labour Party do you automatically get invited to BBC Scotland for a job interview? 😀

  243. manandboy says:

    Excluded by EVEL, how long before Scots MP’s are considered part-time and have their salary reduced by the English dominated remuneration committee.
    And as for all that hanging about, I don’t see too many MP’s putting up with that for too long.
    EVEL looks like rendering Westminster unworkable. Hurray!

  244. One_Scot says:

    Why anyone persists in feeding him I have no idea.

  245. sensibledave says:

    heedtracker 3:09 pm

    You wrote “What does that mean sensible? Sorry but you’re really UKOK unionist boring, today so brevity is the soul of sneaky creepy UKOK activism eh?”

    …. Now Heedy, you have rather let the cat out of the bag. I have commented a number of times that you have responded to my comments without ever reading them. And now you prove it!

    At 11.51 I wrote …..
    ………………………………..
    No, Dave hasn’t “got it” yet either. SCOTTISH MPS WILL VOTE ON “ENGLISH ONLY” LAWS DAVE. ENGLISH ONLY LAWS WILL ONLY BE PASSED IF THE UK PARLIAMENT (INCLUDING SCOTTISH MPs) VOTE FOR THEM.

    Hereafter, I will use the acronym “SMPWVOEOLDEOLWOBPITUPISMVFT” to help prevent RSA.
    ………………………………….

    …. I have subsequently responded to comments about a dozen times with the acronym – because it was the only response needed to to the misinformed comment that I was replying to.

  246. One_Scot says:

    Given that our main news broadcaster is hiding the fact that Scotland has been politicaly weakened by EVEL, is there a more politicaly repressed country anywhere in the world than Scotland.

  247. Donnywho says:

    Since there are people defending this change and saying that in the end the whole of the commons vote. Then I ask you why is this being done, if it is just the same? Do they not like Scottish voices? Are we to be banned from English Grand Commitees, when our own is stuffed with proper full voting rights MP’s. If we are loosing no rights in “reality” then what is the point of three extra stages of legislation.

    As has been pointed out scots MPs actually change Uk/English legislation about 0.6% of the time yet even this is considered an outrage to democracy that must be balanced and the Scottish MPs silenced and denied high office.

    No sensible government would do this, it makes no sense.

    Simply put it is a knee jerk reaction to a problem that never existed. Damn Tam Dayell and his West Lothian question. Over 99 times in a 100 England gets what it votes for and that is not enough for them.

  248. Onwards says:

    Thinking about it, the most significant outcome for this EVEL legislation might be on the Labour Party. They can no longer use 50 odd Scottish MPs to force through laws unwanted by a majority of English Tory MPs.

    Makes me think the UK Labour Party would be more likely to propose federalism in the future, perhaps alongside Lords reform. No-one is really happy with the current set-up, and a Real English Parliament could be a big selling point for them.

    Is federalism compatible with the principle of Scottish sovereignty of the people though.. ?

  249. Cactus says:

    If the non-EVEL MP’s are now not welcome into the UK chamber at certain times.. when they’re excluded, maybe they should pin a sign to the front of the back of their seats with the words:

    Better
    Together

    Poetically apt I say. Get yer television cameras on that!

  250. Nana Smith says:

    @manandboy agree with you.

    Here’s a couple of articles you might like.

    http://www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/news/canada-lifts-eu-beef-ban.27958922

    Chinese visit to the UK is proof the British state is on its knees

    https://www.holyrood.com/articles/comment/chinese-visit-uk-proof-british-state-its-knees

  251. Proud Cybernat says:

    E-Day effectively ended the Union. It is now merely a matter of time for us both to ‘detangle’. Scotland is no longer in a ‘Union’ with England but is merely an adjunct to it; an appendage. A colony. Unionists are no longer ‘Unionists’ but are now ‘Colonialists’.

    This is what they now are for the ‘Union’ is no more. Let’s call them what they now are: ‘Colonialists’.

  252. Anagach says:

    One_Scot says:

    Why anyone persists in feeding him I have no idea.

    Entertainment. Hes regressed from Troll to Spammer, lets see how far down he can go…:-)

  253. Reviresco says:

    I’ve got an acronym too. GIRFUY.

  254. DerekM says:

    Aye the zoomers are out must have been a full moon last night

    Is this a case of if all else fails go back to using the blood and soil smear, yawn even their smears have no vision jeez.

  255. heedtracker says:

    sensibledave says:
    23 October, 2015 at 3:30 pm
    heedtracker 3:09 pm

    Thanks. Its true I don’t read your unionist stuff after the first one. Its seems to be exact same UKOK stuff pouring out of BBC Scotland what I have to pay for, so thats why.

    Except today sensible, when that whole BBC lie machine’s gone silent on EVEL. Really creepy outfit run but some really creepy bullshitters, well paid though.

    That’s my teamGB mystery of the day sensibledave.

    PS sensible it’d be a lot more interesting if you told us who you really represent on here. I think you’re a toryboy activist, you have that unionist toryboy sneer that so familiar in your Scotland region. Several toryboys and girls on twitter try it but its just sad and even sadder when they start whining about evil cybernats telling them to fcuk off:D

    https://twitter.com/kevverage?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

  256. Iain More says:

    Totally off topic.

    I was disappointed in Jim Sillers comments in the National Letters Page today. That he should use the views of a pro Nuke Power Hawk in Professor Hal Lewis to justify what is an unsustainable attitude in relation to Energy provision and to attack renewables.

    It might have escaped Sillers attention that the Brit Govt is guaranteeing a lecky price for the building of a Nuke Power Station in Somerset that is significantly higher than anything offered to the renewable Industry to date or for the foreseeable future.

  257. sensibledave says:

    Donnywho 3:34 pm

    You wrote: “Since there are people defending this change and saying that in the end the whole of the commons vote. Then I ask you why is this being done, if it is just the same? Do they not like Scottish voices? Are we to be banned from English Grand Commitees, when our own is stuffed with proper full voting rights MP’s. If we are loosing no rights in “reality” then what is the point of three extra stages of legislation.

    … I have a great deal of sympathy for you Donnywho!

    You have been fired up to believe that EVEL represents the end of democracy as you knew it. The SNP web site, Tommy Sheridan bemoan the darkening as an end to civilisation. Rampant Scots shout at the injustice of it all as the colonial English once again pushing their heel into the downtrodden Scots.

    But now, as the scales fall from your eyes, you are left, desperately looking around you wondering what the hell all the fuss was about!

    Learn from it Donnywho.

  258. Bob Mack says:

    Evel is the end of democracy as we know it. In time it will also thankfully end the Union as we know it ..I am very happy.

  259. sensibledave says:

    Heedtracker 3.52

    You wrote “PS sensible it’d be a lot more interesting if you told us who you really represent on here. I think you’re a toryboy activist, you have that unionist toryboy sneer that so familiar in your Scotland region. Several toryboys and girls on twitter try it but its just sad and even sadder when they start whining about evil cybernats telling them to fcuk off:D

    1. I am Spartacus! I don’t represent anyone Heedy. I get days off and I enjoy debating politics as a use of my time.

    2. I am not now, and never have been a member of the Tory Party.

    3. I am certainly not a Tory activist nor am I some sort of paid hack.

    4. Today has been a good day. I have educated, informed and put a few people back on the straight and narrow.

    5. You ask why this issue isn’t all over the press today. The simple answer Heedy, is that it really isn’t very important or interesting anywhere – other than in the minds of the SNP. The only people in a froth about this issue were SNP politicians and those appearing in this thread earlier – but most of those people now realise that they might have been “misled” – to put it politely.

  260. Jim says:

    sensibledave says:
    23 October, 2015 at 3:02 pm

    Jim says 2:27 pm

    You wrote: “Thank you, this is my take on it exactly which is why England should have it’s own assembly/parliament in which such matters would be devolved to that assembly/parliament.”

    …. I respect your opinion – but it isn’t what the English want.

    Then you wrote: “As it is there is no way that England should have free access to UK treasury funds without the approval of the MPs of all member states.

    … Oh God …
    ____________
    What is the problem with the English having their own parliament, why is it not what they want?

    Is it a case of they want to have their cake and eat it.

    I said, ‘as it is’, at this moment in time, without an English parliament there is no justification for the exclusion of particular MPs from voting on apparently English matters which would in reality affect the block grant of other member states.

    England needs to have it’s own parliament with it’s own budget and devolved responsibilities, that is the only way this can work otherwise the Union is unfit for purpose and should be either renegotiated by it’s member states or dissolved altogether.

  261. heedtracker says:

    You have been fired up to believe that EVEL represents the end of democracy as you knew it.

    Which it is sensible. And its why teamGB media are all silent on this historic fraud. And why was EVEL held back til the day after our referendum sensible?

    Questions, questions sensible.

    You can see why toryboy world kept EVEL a very nasty secret. even right through their The Vow shyste but it doesn’t make it democratic.

    This is a very big nail in the coffin of toryboy control of their Scotland, or fantastic UKOK triumph of unionist teamGB

    Time and BBC attack propaganda will tell.

  262. Anagach says:

    sensibledave says: spam spam spam

    Your hyperbole that EVEL represents the end of democracy as you knew it is nonsense and your the only person saying it.

    What it amounts to is a declaration that Westminster is the English Parliament, and possibly that English constituency MPs are likely to now exclusively hold high office. That a speaker decision can exclude MPs on what they think is their business.

    The lack of balance across the UK in terms of devolution cannot be rebalanced by tilting Westminster against the devolved nations, however slight and unworkable the tilt.

    Its not the solution.

    It will work against the Union.

    Ill let you get back to your spam and chips.

  263. sensibledave says:

    ooops! that should have been Tommy Shepperd @ 4.02

  264. Andrew McLean says:

    Sensible

    no one is saying this is the killer move, it’s what it represents, for the first time in the history of the union, there are two types of mp, Scottish and rump UK, spin it any way you want but the fact remains, the United Kingdom Parliament has blinked! In his attempt to quieten dissent in england the first step by John Redwood has opened the door. never again can westminster claim to be a united parliament, regardless of how minor, the rot has set in, don’t be obtuse you cannot fail to be aware this is a stupid move if you wanted a united parliament, it will be portrayed on the doorsteps as a sell out, and look at who agrees https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/2752/scottish-mps-will-have-second-class-voting-rights-as-evel-plan-is-passed

  265. Jim says:

    Sunniva says:

    With devolution questions were asked what the SoS was actually for. And whether the post was still needed… Was he Scotland’s man in the Cabinet? Or the government’s man in Scotland?

    You decide!
    ________
    With the change from Scotland office to UK Government for Scotland I’ll go with the latter.

  266. Chic McGregor says:

    @Sunniva
    “The votes of Scottish MPs made a difference to the outcome of divisions 0.65% of the time since 2001, according to the House of Commons Library’s research.

    English MPs have 99.35% success rate in getting their own way and they want more?

    What kind of ‘union’ was that?”

    Poster Boy has to posterise that.

  267. john king says:

    Frogesque says
    “As things now stand no Scottish MP of whatever Party could effectively be a Prime Minter, Chancellor or Cabinet Minister, neither could they become Shadow equivalents.”

    So we can expect Mundell to be replaced by Reese- Mogg any day now then? 🙂

  268. DerekM says:

    no Dave its not the end of democracy but it could be the beginning ,what those smucks the Tories have done is basically tear up the treaty of union ,the UK parliament(the clue is in the name)is a parliament where the business of all the UK gets done(that by the way doesnt mean England)

    To exclude other nations representatives from UK parliamentary business has effectively turned westminster into the English parliament and the UK parliament is no more.

    Even though it was unbalanced through nation size and population it was still the UK parliament,it cannot be both the UK parliament and the English parliament cant you see the conflict of interests.

    Obviously the solution is to create an English parliament but it cant be westminster its the UK parliament.

    But hey ho you Tory boys keep at it ,at this rate we will be free by Christmas ,i bet Dave is having some roast suckling pig.

  269. yesindyref2 says:

    EVEL – there is of course a way back that saves the Union, at least for a few years. That’s if Mundell meantime has not only removed the veto clauses from the Scotland Act, but beefed it up substantially, enough to make the ordinary punter think again.

    If it had FFA that could possibly set back the SNP for the Holyrood Elections, they’d have to be very careful in this time not to go too far on EVEL. FFA should be able to make EVEL totally acceptable, and in fact, normal.

    FFA could also halt the steady increase in YES support and, since some of the YES voters were really Devo-Maxers, could turn them back to NO on a kind of “wait and see, give it a chance” basis.

    At the same time the UK Government would announce talks with the NI and Welsh governments about increasing their powers.

    Is it likely to happen? I don’t think so.

  270. john king says:

    “Ill let you get back to your spam and chips.”

    Spams orf
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBcY3W5WgNU

  271. Onwards says:

    Andrew McLean says:
    23 October, 2015 at 4:20 pm

    ..no one is saying this is the killer move, it’s what it represents, for the first time in the history of the union, there are two types of mp, Scottish and rump UK
    ——

    That’s it exactly.
    It’s all about the perception.

    The amount of times that Scottish MP’s could or would force legislation on an unwilling English public is minimal in practice.

    Yet the Tories chose to hand the SNP a huge propaganda weapon:

    Scottish voters will become aware that Scottish MP’s have second class status in the UK Parliament.

  272. Dr Jim says:

    We’ll need to do something before the Chinese police move in after they’ve bought Scotland to make it into a Powerhouse (Poorhouse)
    We’ll not be able to talk for much longer on the Interwebby once China has concluded the deals it wants, they can’t have a country that allows Human Rights and Freedom of Speech Makes you think about Camerons new Human Rights Act now eh, how long was this planned

    Hope over Fear rallies? you’ll have had them you Nationalist Terrorists

    Sound far fetched? (The UK Gov in Scotland) re-brand?

    Fluffy Mingdell the Merciless new Conservative and Chinese Liason Ambassador
    The price of a Pagoda is about to go through the roof
    They’ll keep the Red flag flying here, tuneful eh

    The First Minister in a Kimono and heels (fetching)
    Except she’ll be the First Courtesan

    Oh Dear God, I started to see it there…… Oooohhbbrr!!!

  273. sensibledave says:

    Andrew McLean 4.20

    … I followed your link. The first paragraph reads:

    “SCOTTISH MEMBERS of the House of Commons will lose their right to vote on matters that are deemed ‘English only’ as part of a shake-up of the law making process at Westminster.”

    … that is your problem right there! That is the spin. That is what you, and those around you, was fired up to believe. That is what is totally wrong and that is why you are still casting around looking for confirmation of the original bias.

    In actuality, Scottish members will vote, together with all other members of the UK Parliament, to pass laws that are deemed “English Only”. They couldn’t have been more wrong if they had tried could they.

    You need to be a bit more circumspect when reading stuff Andrew and do a bit of investigation yourself before you allow yourself to be used.

  274. JLT says:

    Quakeawake

    Hi mate. Not a problem. Just that SensibleDave really annoyed me this morning by trying to muddy the waters.

    I may not have all the answers, and I could be wrong, but going from what I have read and heard, this is how I perceive it.

    All the other home nations have their own Parliament. Each raises taxes within it, and spends the money accordingly in that nation. This takes care of one’s own Parliament and in spending part of the taxes raised. As an example, the new Forth Crossing is being paid solely by the Scottish people; no one else. Same with the Commonwealth Games last year; we paid for it …no one else.

    Now EVEL claims to do sort the problem of English interests in the face of the other devolved parliaments in the UK. On paper, it looks like that. In reality, it falls way, way short, and can be seriously abused. Rather than build their own Parliament (which the English electorate would have to foot the bill for), they instead use the existing UK Parliament in a manner that ‘potentially’ (and probably will) abuse the UK Parliament to suit English needs. Monies raised from all over the UK could potentially be used to ‘fund’ English projects. As an example, if London wants to build its Garden Bridge, then chances are, monies raised to pay for it, will come from all parts of the UK. How? Because money is being raised in the UK Parliament; not an English one.

    Secondly, when it comes to deciding budgets, all non-English MP’s could be asked to leave the main chamber while English MP’s decide how much of a budget should be set aside for the social things ie Health and Education. Since Scotland gets a percentage of what England allocates itself, if English MP’s decide to have a much lower budget, then this affects Scotland also. And where will we be to protest? Yep…outside the main chamber. English MP’s in one sense will be affecting budgetary matters in Scotland, but we can’t protest against it, nor even influence the English budget (if we are looking at a view of parity) because we are outside the Chamber.

    This is why all the non-English MP’s are now ‘second class MP’s’ …and it doesn’t just affect SNP MP’s. This includes all parties outside England; whether it is Scottish Tories, Welsh Labour or NI Sinn Fein members. All are locked out of the room if the Speaker, John Bercow decides so (and he will be pressurised into doing it. Can you imagine the fury from English constituents if he allows the SNP to vote on potentially ‘English matters’).

    And finally, since key positions may be deemed as ‘English sensitive’, there is the good possibility that we may never have again another non-English PM, Secretary of State, Health Minister, Education Minister since most of these positions are already ‘devolved’ to the other home parliaments.

    But here’s a daft thought. David Mundell sits as Secretary of State for Scotland in the Tory Cabal …err Cabinet. Does he need to leave the room whenever the chat keeps going back and forth over English matters? Can you see Mundell being asked to leave the room every 3 to 5 minutes? Once again, do we see one rule for one, and one for everyone else when it comes to the Tories?

    I’m sure other Wingers can add to the potential areas of possible abuse (can SNP Members sit on key Committees?). Maybe we need to draft up ‘A beginner’s Guide to EVEL’ and then post this left right and centre on all media fronts. The more folk are aware of it; the more they will become disgusted with Westminster politics.

    Quakeawake. Yesterday was a disgrace on so many fronts; not least in the abuse of using Westminster as an English assembly. Will it speed the end of the Union? Only time will tell on how English MP’s do their voting on English matters …and how they pay for it!

    Hope this helps a little bit more.

  275. Alastair says:

    We already have a Scottish bank owned and run by Scots and supported by some Stella Scottish Business people.
    It’s Airdrie Savings Bank.
    Could it be used to leverage Scots banking for Independent minded Scots.
    Could Scottish Government take a stake and manage its independent growth.

  276. Proud Cybernat says:

    If the Speaker has decided a bill relates only to England and Wales, the legislative Grand Committee will be made up of English and Welsh MPs.

    This stage allows English or English and Welsh MPs to debate legislation, and either consent to it or veto it, with no involvement from Scottish MPs – regardless of any knock on effects the legislation may have on Scotland.

    Here we see that English or English+Welsh MPs can effectively scupper legislation before Scots MPs even get a sniff at it. What if Scots MPs were in favour of a particular piece of legislation because it had a knock-on effect in Scotland? And what if the legislation was voted down in the English/Welsh Grand Committee stage by just a few votes? A few votes which could have easily been overturned by Scottish MPs?

    That is not fair and it is not a sensible way of doing WM business, Dave.

  277. jcd says:

    Onwards 4.42

    1)”Yet the Tories chose to hand the SNP a huge propaganda weapon”

    2)”Scottish voters will become aware that Scottish MP’s have second class status in the UK Parliament.”

    1) How can the SNP expose this if they have no effective, wide ranging media outlet?

    2)How is that going to happen if they’re not told about it in an unbiased way, or not told about it at all? As you undoubtedly know not everyone in Scotland reads WoS, WGD etc, even those who would if they could or knew about it.

  278. manandboy says:

    Thanks for those links, Nana. Much appreciated. Scotland’s beef farmers will certainly be pleased to see the Canadian market for beef open again to the EU.

    As for the visit of the Chinese leader, I’m sure he came not just because there was business to be conducted but because he knows that with the Tories, he is dealing with like-minded people. Tory Westminster and Communist China are now birds of a feather. But only one of them is set up to be plucked.

  279. sensibledave says:

    Proud Cybernat 5.09

    You wrote: “Here we see that English or English+Welsh MPs can effectively scupper legislation before Scots MPs even get a sniff at it.”

    Totally wrong Proud Cybernat! Have you not read anything above!

    All Bills, including “English Only” Bills need to have had two readings in the HoC, with a majority of the UK Parliament voting for the Bill – before the Grand Committee get to debate it if it is an “English Only” law.

  280. Xaracen says:

    “So, the only issue arises if English MPs choose to veto a Bill that is an “English Only” issue. Some here on Wings think that is an outrage. The very idea that English MPs should be able vote to veto a law that only affects England is the end of the world, the Union is dead, and yet another example of English colonialism.

    I disagree.

    I disagree with your disagreement!

    I don’t have an issue with English MPs having a veto on laws that affect only England.

    My issue is that English MPs awarded that voting right solely to themselves, denying its equivalent to all the other MPs. They have made themselves special, again.

    Westminster did not want a devolved parliament for England because England is special, and the English establishment simply wouldn’t tolerate the kind of restrictions on an English Assembly that Westminster imposed on the other devolved governments.

    And having made such an asymmetric dog’s breakfast of a constitutional settlement, the West Lothian Question pops up. This dreadful anomaly is an outrage to England, but the actuality is that only 0.65% of voting decisions were actually affected by the WLQ, because it is offset by that other great asymmetry, England’s enormous voting block in Westminster, which practically guarantees that what English MPs vote for they get, which cannot be said for any other group of MPs in the HoC.

    This asymmetry creates the so-called Tyranny of the Majority whereby democracy only works for one block, and not at all for any of the others.

    This practically-vertical playing field strongly favours England, and EVEL just tilted it even closer to vertical, again in favour of England.

    Fair? Fuck off!

  281. sensibledave says:

    JLT 5.05

    You Wrote: “Hi mate. Not a problem. Just that SensibleDave really annoyed me this morning by trying to muddy the waters.”

    … If by “muddy the waters” you mean show the outrageous propaganda up for what it is – then I am guilty as charged.

  282. Proud Cybernat says:

    “Totally wrong Proud Cybernat! Have you not read anything above!

    All Bills, including “English Only” Bills need to have had two readings in the HoC, with a majority of the UK Parliament voting for the Bill – before the Grand Committee get to debate it if it is an “English Only” law.”

    And what you fail to grasp is that a Bill might only succeed to EGC stage on the back of ALL WM votes (including those of Scots MPs) because it is in Scotland’s interest that such a Bill succeeds. Only to have it then vetoed by the EGC.

    Thus what you have is WM (the UK) voting in favour of a particular Bill only to find English/Welsh MPs slapping a veto on it tehreby effectively shutting out non-English/Welsh MPs.

    Not sensible, Dave.

  283. crazycat says:

    @ Iain More at 3.52

    Don’t know if you will see this, now that there is a new thread.

    Sillars has lost the plot, sadly. He describes the letter from Hal Lewis as “recent”. The letter dates from 2010; Lewis died in 2011.

    In between, he was part of Nigel Lawson’s dodgy Global Warming Policy Foundation, which constituted itself as a charity, enabling it to refuse to reveal the sources of its funding, at a time when it was criticizing its opponents for lack of transparency.

    Many members of GWPF had conflicts of interest, yet Sillars wants to believe that it is “the green lobby” which is conflicted and peddling bad science. His views on fracking are equally unbalanced.

    I understand why he doesn’t want to abandon the energy sources he’s been used to for decades, but I think he’s letting himself down badly with this; his letter is poorly-researched and makes him look a fool. That depresses me because otherwise I rather like him.

  284. sensibledave says:

    Proud Cybernat 2015 at 5:45 pm

    … I can’t help you much more. I just keep repeating myself.

    If your remaining concern, that democracy has died, on the basis that “English Only” laws can be vetoed by a majority of English MPs – then you have every right to be extremely worried.

    You will forgive me if I don’t give a fig.

    I am told above that Scottish MPs only affected votes in 0.65% of cases. Why do you so desperately want to hang on to the last 0.35%?

    Let me tell you why. So you can p**s off the English if you see a political opportunity. Not because you actually believe in what you are doing is right, or in the best interest of people in England – No, but just to cause upset because you believe that is in the best interest of Scottish Independence.

  285. Iain Hamilton says:

    @sensible dave

    I’m hurt that you seem to reply to pretty much all comments aimed at you and you’ve ignored my post for 4 and a half hours.

    It wasn’t a hard question I thought.

  286. crazycat says:

    @ sensibledave

    Further up this thread, you said that the only point of EVEL was to ensure that English-only laws cannot be passed unless they command the support of a majority of English MPs.

    Fine.

    Prior to that, someone had pointed out that, in the current Parliament, the Conservative overall majority will always prevail on such bills, which are guaranteed the support of a majority of English MPs, if they pass at all.

    Your response (I’m paraphrasing) was : tough, that’s democracy.

    Fine. I agree.

    What those two things collectively mean, however, is that currently EVEL is totally pointless. It puts the Speaker in an awkward position, creates an extra committee for people who claim to already be short of time (they couldn’t possibly have shorter recesses), to achieve something that will always happen anyway.

    In another parliament, of course, there may be a different distribution of seats. But since no government can bind its successors, EVEL can be reversed (as a change to Standing Orders that might not be classified as “repeal”) by the same process as it was introduced this week.

    So when might it actually have a purpose? A Labour government with lots of Scottish MPs (decades from now, probably) could just get rid of EVEL. A Tory minority, out-voteable by a mixture of English Lab MPs and non-English members seems to be the only case that fits, but since only the government can introduce legislation (I believe), it would never be the case that laws were imposed against the wishes of English MPs, only that they were prevented.

    So the real question is “Why now?” – and I don’t think the answer is anything to do with a vociferous demand from English electors.

  287. Andrew McLean says:

    Sensible Dave,

    You again miss the point, in this war of hearts and minds, it matters not on jot, the machinations around EVEL, it would be a protagonists dream if they, the Scottish MPs were only barred from the canteen 2pm on a Tuesday afternoon, is a massive own goal! You gave us the poll tax, trident and austerity, just because of a perceived slight, statistically insignificant you have allowed your enemy the opertunity to claim a two teir parliament, when English MPs were gaily voicing an opinion for hundreds of years on Scotland we had to suck it up, you lied, not you personally, but the unionist side, better together, stronger together, we are all in it together, one Union, through thick and thin? And now you bring in EVEL, you couldn’t even pick a worse name!

  288. Andrew McLean says:

    Alastair
    I was going to suggest the Airdrie Savings Bank, a fine example of Banking, not affected during the banking crisis, it even helped with RBOS liquidity!

  289. Bill says:

    The organic shift towards independence started many decades ago. It’s going to be slow and at times painful.



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