The Empire Of Dr. Schrödinger
Alert readers will probably already be familiar with the philosophical proposition of Schrödinger’s cat. (The less alert can click the link for a short and easy primer.) The hypothetical experiment posited by 20th-century Austrian physicist Erwin Schrödinger has entered into popular culture. But increasingly and disturbingly, it’s also becoming the guiding principle of mainstream media journalism.
Certain viewers should steel themselves at this point, because we’re about to briefly talk about football before moving on to other things later in the article. You can consider that your trigger warning. We’ll let you know when it’s over.
The lines above were issued to the press yesterday by The Rangers International Football Club plc, a football club (the clue’s in the name) formed in 2012, yet which lays claim to the history and achievements of a previous club of a similar name which was liquidated for bankruptcy the same year, having been formed in 1872.
And eagle-eyed logic fans may have spotted something of a contradiction.
The statement was an attempt to pre-empt the possibility that honours won by the first Rangers might be retrospectively removed by the Scottish football authorities after that club was found guilty by Scotland’s highest court of systematically cheating not only the taxman but its on-field opponents for the first decade of the 21st century.
The normal practice in sport is that titles won by such cheating are stripped from the culprit(s). Lance Armstrong is no longer deemed by cycling’s governing bodies to have been the winner of seven Tour de France crowns after he was found guilty of doping offences. (There are now no official winners for the years in which he came first.)
And in football, Juventus FC were stripped of two Italian league titles in 2006 (as well as being demoted and given a points handicap) after a match-fixing scandal.
Anyone familiar with the Scottish football authorities won’t be expecting any similar action to be taken regarding the 13 trophies won in those 10 years by Rangers, thanks to players the club could only afford to field by breaking both tax laws and SFA rules. But that’s rather aside from the point.
The point is that the new “Rangers” strenuously and constantly insists (to the point of emblazoning “Rangers Then, Rangers Now, Rangers Forever, Est. 1872” across its stands) to actually be the same football club as the one formed 143 years ago which failed to exit administration in 2012 and entered liquidation.
That is, right up to the point where it has to take responsibility for any of the old club’s negative baggage or liabilities, at which point it shrieks at the top of its voice that it has nothing to do with any of it. The very “history” that the club fought tooth and nail to attach itself to is now someone else’s problem.
In other words, the new “Rangers” is Schrödinger’s Football Club – it simultaneously both is and isn’t the same club as the old Rangers.
To try to resolve the paradox the club and many of its fans desperately cling to belief in a legally-nonsensical separation between the “club” and the “holding company”, but even aside from the absurd nature of the claim in itself, any such distinction shatters when you’re talking specifically about titles won on the pitch. Holding companies don’t contest the Scottish Cup, football clubs do.
And yet almost without exception, the print and broadcast media plays along with the charade, constantly referring to the club’s history as if it were unbroken and liquidation was merely a minor bureaucratic hiccup. It pretends that a football club is both alive and dead at the same time, when all it needs do is open the box and see for sure.
END OF FOOTBALL SECTION
But what we should perhaps call Schrödinger’s Syndrome is spreading. Readers will probably recall that we’ve spent much of the past few days debunking Scottish Labour’s astonishing assertion that it can compensate victims of the tax-credit cuts planned by the UK government using money saved by not cutting Air Passenger Duty, as the Scottish Government intends to do in 2018 when it’s given control of the tax.
Observers who’ve grasped the basic principles of arithmetic have tried and failed to get Labour to explain how NOT cutting a tax can possibly magic extra money into the Scottish Government’s coffers. (After all, the whole point of not changing something is, by definition, to keep it the same, not to make it bigger or smaller.)
Remarkably, even the few normally-intelligent journalists covering Scottish politics have lapped up the plans unquestioningly. We, meanwhile, have doggedly pursued all sorts of party representatives trying to get to the bottom of it. Yesterday we spoke to South Lanarkshire Labour councillor Gerard Killen, and made some modest progress.
If you couldn’t be bothered reading all that, the summary is this:
“We’re going to wait and see what John Swinney says he’d cut to fund reducing APD, then whatever he’d cut, we’ll use the money for our tax-credits policy instead.”
We got much the same answer from unemployed tuba enthusiast Blair McDougall.
And anyone with an IQ above room temperature will have immediately spotted the enormous logic chasm in both responses, which is this: for Labour’s plan to work, the SNP have to be in power.
If Labour are to implement their scheme, they have to win the election. But if they win the election, John Swinney won’t be the finance minister. If John Swinney isn’t the finance minister, APD won’t be cut. If it hasn’t been cut, it can’t be restored. So where will Labour find the £500m they need for the tax-credits policy?
Swinney’s case, in any event, is that he won’t have to make savings elsewhere to pay for the APD cut at all, because it’ll pay for itself by attracting more flights, business, tourists and jobs to Scottish airports. A report by Edinburgh Airport in March this year claimed that initially halving the tax at a cost of £125m a year (which is Swinney’s plan) would bring about £200m of economic benefits to Scotland, a net GAIN of £75m.
That argument may or may not hold up in reality. But what we know for sure is that Labour can’t both win and lose the 2016 election. To implement their own plan, they can’t just wait to see what John Swinney does with the budget in 2018 and then react to it, because if Labour are in power John Swinney won’t be doing anything.
Swinney, in other words, is Schrödinger’s Finance Secretary. Labour need him to be in power to find their savings for them, but they simultaneously need him NOT to be in power so they can use those savings to carry out their policy.
It’s causing us considerable mental pain to type these words, because the gigantic, colossal, gaping, abyssal hole in Labour’s plan (or to be more precise, the biggest of many such holes) is so obvious an averagely-smart Cocker Spaniel could spot it. Yet it has evaded the nation’s press as deftly as Rangers’ tax payments evaded HMRC.
Journalism’s only job is to inform people, by analysing events and presenting them in context. It would have no purpose if the media existed solely to “report what people have said” (as one Herald staffer said this morning regarding the “Rangers” statement, before deleting his tweet), because in that case parties could just send their press releases to newspapers to be printed directly without any journalistic intervention.
Just as with the cowardly treatment of Schrödinger’s FC, the absence of the slightest scrutiny of Scottish Labour’s ridiculous fag-packet scam – which spends money that doesn’t exist, and can never exist if Labour are in power, several times over – is an appalling indictment of both the press and Scotland’s educational system. Maybe that’s one thing Kezia Dugdale was right about after all.
um…does this mean, technically, I cant go off topic on this thread?
Aye ye cannae spend that whit ye dinnae hae
To be honest the biggest bonus for me would be that the chances of getting a direct flight to where I want to go would be greatly increased.
Not having to go via Heathrow which I think of as The Airport from Hell would be wonderful. Their ability to a) break my luggage, and b) lose my luggage is unmatched by any other British airport.
If this is how incompetent ‘Scottish’ Labour are in opposition, I can only pray to God that they never actually get to be in a position of power.
So……is that like the Schrodingers Ibrox Giants then?
just to reiterate
there is a parallel universe in which YES won…..
um…what the fukc are we all doing here ?
Oh good grief, with a topping of ooft!
Its long been said that when Labour has no policy worth diddly it prefers to carp in opposition, but dang!
Yes it is completely illogical.
The other thing that galls is Jackie Baillie yet again leading the charge on this when she has herself voted for Trident renewal, the removal of which could more than fund a Scottish government recompense package for Osborne’s despicable attack on the poor.
If nuclear exchange ever does look imminent you can bet Ms Baillie will be nowhere near West Central Scotland.
@Schrodinger’s Cat
“um…does this mean, technically, I cant go off topic on this thread?”
Well you can and you can’t.
Yet every article, word, and syllable uttered or written by an independence supporter is dissected in detail, and quite often has a lie composed from the content.
Shower of ———- (Fill in the blank with word of choice )
*bangs head on desk repeatedly*
A good piece but the application of logic to these topics is an error. The Rangers situation has gone way beyond this into the land of pure faith. “Rangers” are still the same old club because their followers refuse to believe otherwise. No amount of reasonable argument will shake this, it merely enrages them, forcing them to consider your heresy. The ‘bad’ remnants of the events of 2012 have been compartmentalised into the ‘old’ company and discarded, as if the act of confession was enough to wipe the slate clean. “All praise Old Co it died to save us from our past sins! But not our past glories”.
I could go on in this vein about political journalism in Scotlands’ need for a ‘strong’ opposition to the SNP. It must be so, so any short comings are ignored.
This might not be breaking news but SLab seem to be doing everything they can NOT to win next year’s Holyrood election.
I suspect that IF (I should have increased the point size there ‘cos it’s a bloody huge IF) they win power in Holyrood next year, both they and Scotland would be royally fcuked.
“because in that case parties could just send their press releases to newspapers to be printed directly without any journalistic intervention.”
In the case of Labour and the Daily Record I assumed this has always been the case.
So for the MSM, or corporate media, to function properly, all it needs is a spellchecker instead of reporters? Plus, of course, the usual billionaire non-resident owners…
“Journalism’s only job is to inform people, by analysing events and presenting them in context. It would have no purpose if the media existed solely to “report what people have said”
That’s what journalist do. But then most people working in the media are ‘churnalists’
churnalism
Term coined by author Nick Davies to describe poor practices of modern day journalists who “churn” or recycle news stories off the wire or internet without appropriate critical investigation.
Over on labour facebook pages it (APD cut) has been described as a saving, a cut and a reduction for rich Scots who can afford to fly.
Apparently these things can be spent elsewhere so us SNP trolls are stupid…(sigh!)
Tried a new tact with them, told them the APD plan was an investment to encourage future growth, even quoted the financial benefits of doing so.
But alas, it is like talking to a dried out jellyfish stranded above the high tide mark !
There are people we can never reach, that much is already obvious, but those visitors to the labour pages looking genuinely for information need to know that not all said by labour on their official pages is true or accurate.
These are the people i hope to give some food for thought to.
Sometimes have fun with the more rabid population just to make it bearable you understand. ….
What frustrates me is that Labour say, and the media report, that APD will be cut by however much, £250m or £125m or £10 zillion. Surely APD is a % rate not a cash amount. The income is variable and a lower % may generate a higher lump of cash which could be used elsewhere.
@ scrodingers cat,
We the supporters of independence are living in that parralell universe
I sometimes feel many of my fellow Scots are divided from reality by a thin curtain through which I can see and hear them, but it somehow detaches them from seeing other possibilities
The only thing I can liken it to was the film Ghost,in which Patrick Swayze spent most of the time tring to communicate with his girlfriend Molly
They were both “there” if you like,but unable to communicate until a medium was brought into the scenario.
That medium in Scotland should have been the press and TV.
Instead we have something unable to see ,hear,or touch the people of this country.Sad.
Youre not with the program Stu.
When Labour eventually cut something to fund the APD reduction, the one they wont actually do, the cut will be the SNPs fault because that is what they would have done anyway…
Yes ?
By delaying admitting any cut they maybe hope to pass it off as not theirs.
The more I think about this, the more it becomes clear how big a set of mugs Labour take us for and how big a set of mugs these journalists are. When you press them on how not cutting a tax will raise new revenues, the answer turns out to be that the SNP will have to raise revenue from somewhere else to compensate for the tax cut (a deeply simplistic fallacy in itself, since a tax cut for consumers can theoretically pay for itself by boosting demand) and that Labour will use that money to pay for all their policies at once.
In other words, Labour are saying that they’re going to pay for their policies by either raising taxes or cutting spending, but they know that they can’t actually say that – it would be deeply hypocritical of them to attack the SNP for supposedly cutting budgets and then say that they were going to do it themselves. Meanwhile, they’re probably aware that the kind of tax hike they’d need to implement themselves would be unpalatable for the electorate.
So, how to package the whole thing? Don’t say that you’re going to raise everyone’s taxes (not just rich people’s) or cut everyone’s public services, since that would look bad. Instead, divert attention by pointing to another party’s tax cut (“Boo! Tax cuts right-wing! Tax cuts bad! SNP right-wing and bad!”) and say that not cutting this tax will give you the new revenue, while not drawing attention to the fact that the new revenue will actually be coming from somewhere else that Labour doesn’t know/doesn’t want to publicly say.
The general idea behind this is quite a clever one – come up with a popular policy and misdirect people from the negatives, while implicitly blaming another party. Unfortunately for Labour, they’ve executed it with their usual incompetent buffoonery. Meanwhile, the Scottish press go along with it, because they’re absolutely desperate to start writing the narrative of the mighty SNP’s fall from grace and the miraculous resurgence of the underdog Labour Party. This really is a lesson in the media’s pack instinct for narrative-driven reporting; even people like Kevin McKenna and Iain MacWhirter are trying to push this line, even though they must see what utter drivel it is.
‘…unemployed tuba enthusiast…’
🙂 🙂 🙂
@Chic McGregor
um…possibly 🙂
the only problem with stu pointing out the glaring contradictions in the unionist camp…..the bbc and msm wont report it.
and since “there is nothing too ridiculous that the credulous wont believe”, we have our work cut out making people aware of this.
Yes the political quantum theory seems to hold true with any of labour’s policies. For example by abstention they can be for and against austerity at the same time…
Mind you in reality if we splice the labour partial north and south of the border, quantum theory I think dictates that whatever we do to one part of the entity should cause the other to change its behaviour…
And thus…
Shit I’ve completely lost the thread.
Chic McGregor says:
@Schrodinger’s Cat
“um…does this mean, technically, I cant go off topic on this thread?”
Well you can and you can’t. Very funny Chic!
Anyway back on topic.
“…parties could just send their press releases to newspapers to be printed directly without any journalistic intervention”
That already happens repeatedly with the exception of SNP press releases that is.
The presstitutes are not worth paying for, neither is the BBC. Cancel your licence and stop buying newspapers.
“because in that case parties could just send their press releases to newspapers to be printed directly without any journalistic intervention.”
Indeed, and who can forget BBC Radio Scotland’s ‘journalistic defence’, in the run-up to the referendum, of their presenters robotically reading out, minus any critical analysis, a slew of anti-independence headlines from the corporate media in a ‘what the papers say’ section?
It was, verbatim, ‘But that’s what they’re saying!’
I’m sure many of Scotland’s Sheriff Officers encounter ‘Schrodinger’ analogies every day.
“It’s ma property”
“We have a poinding to carry out, to recover the debts”
“It’s her property”
“You co-habit”
“It’s ma pal’s property”
When the radioactive particle breaks open the phial of poison Slab will be both dead and alive.
A good idea would be to get a group of children of say about 8 years old and see what they make of Labour’s idea.
http://tinyurl.com/ou85qsx
genius scottieDog
slabs all new autonomous autonomy is due to the quantum entanglement it shares with the corbynites?
who would have thunk it, fiendishly clever these policy twonks, eh?
got to agree with you Rev its total ludicrous and that nobody except your good self has even bothered to look into their brilliant (not) plan is bordering on the unbelievable.
But then it has nothing to do with policy for Scotland and is all about trying to smear the SNP,if this is the platform they are going to stand on in 2016 and expect the electorate to buy into it,they are in for one hell of a rude awakening.
I think I see a pattern emerging
to win yes2, we need to bypass the MSM. somehow….
answers on a post card
Scrapping APD is a no brainer.
There is a measurable loss in terms of tax income to the tune of £250m. There is an immeasurable gain in terms of attracting more visitors with their spending power to visit Scotland. This is worth a lot more than £250m in my view.
The likes of Easyjet and Ryanair will be falling over themselves to bring new and more frequent routes from the EU into Scotland.
There is a reason London Heathrow want a third runway, it brings in revenue, a lot of revenue. I hate having to fly to Heathrow if I want to fly to the US, it’s ridiculous to fly further away before heading for where your going.
the pnr…
Cancel your licence and stop buying newspapers.
good start
but not enough
Hmm. Just typed out a comment and fortunately read other contributions before posting. I find that at least three others had said the same thing almost word for word. (hat-tip to scotsbob for getting in first)
You are trying to trick us, Stu, into repeating together – ” but the Record and BBC DO just recycle Labour press handouts”
And it worked!
Rev since what we are discussing has crossed from politics to experimental philosophy could I expand this a little further in the hope of finding empirical evidence, or at least clarity in beliefs systems held as fact in your article.
You state that “ what we know for sure is that Labour can’t both simultaneously win and lose the election”, well yes if you are referring to the CHHS-Bell inequality, for instance as in Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen Paradox -type experiments.
But as with Labour’s stated dichotomy, this inequality is obeyed by local hidden (and as Bell himself stated these must be contextual) variables. For clarity I am naming one of these variables Keziisation, but remember these may be violated by other theories, including the quantum theory you suggest Rev.
The problem for Labour is that Bell had proved that one could not have local realistic theories of quantum theory, So any action in (election) spin must correspond to the observable equal spin in the other electorate as was proved by the loophole-free Bell test.
So there you have it, proven scientific empirical truth, Scottish Labour is just a figment of our imagination, thought up by Schrödinger’s cat as he pondered his existence in the relative comfort of his apartment.
I believe Labour really are magic and can create £250 million out of thin air by not cancelling the APD cut.
However I utterly condemn them for their sheer lack of ambition. They should promise NOT to cut the NHS budget completely, that give us another £12 billion, then there’s the police and education, they should promise NOT to cut that, NOT to close schools and hospitals, NOT to cut infrastructure spending, and that give them an extra £26 billion to spend on Scotland. That’s more ambitious surely.
However, if they really have found the money tree in this late autumn where leaves are sighing and dropping off together in unity, and have discovered how to reverse entropy so that the energy never runs out, we can reuse it as often as we like, why stop there?
The £25 billion together with the £26 billion thet’ve saved totals £52 billion, so don’t spend that and there’s another £52 billion to spend. Keep going keep going, and Scottish Labour will discover Scotland is infinitely rich. And probably back Independence.
My fee for this advice to Scottish Labour is a mere £1 million and, of course, the secret of their magic money tree. I won’t spend that £1 million so that’ll save me £1 milion so I’ll have …
@schrodingers cat
I agree it’s not nearly enough but a start. Constantly ridiculing and exposing the failings of the churnalists helps too.
That’s the Revs and Wingers job. Just keep laughing at them, I’m open to other suggestions.
Last Red Tory Ian Murray claims in Edinburgh local paper to-day that Vow has been delivered thanks to Labour and Scottish Parliament now has massive powers.
https://archive.is/5ccPs
Answers on a post card.
http://tinyurl.com/nnzop62
People might need to get out their magnifying glass when reading the front page of Johnston press newspapers.
Johnston Press said:
“The main parties spent £9.1m on advertising during the 2010 General Election campaign and it makes business sense for the regional media to try and take a fair share of this spending.
Kind of reminds me of that song …
“Oops there goes, another money tree”
Labour are a unique kind of Schrödinger’s cat, both dead and dead.
Dead in the ideas department, and dead in the electability department.
There’s no such thing as an “averagely-smart Cocker Spaniel” – they’re all incredibly smart and could spot such a hole a mile off.
Did I miss the bit where the Labour Peers’ victory wasn’t a “humiliating climb down” Osborne after all?
“Scrapping APD is a no brainer.
There is a measurable loss in terms of tax income to the tune of £250m. There is an immeasurable gain in terms of attracting more visitors with their spending power to visit Scotland. This is worth a lot more than £250m in my view.”
It may or may not be. But that, I suspect, is why Swinney plans to test the water with a 50% cut first, with no date on any potential full abolition.
So Dugdale is attempting to spend £0, which even if she hadn’t totally misunderstood basic arithmetic would actually be £125m, to pay for stuff costing £578m. (Tax credits plus the school bonus thing.)
@Camz
Two men in court.
Judge to 1st man: where do you live?
1st man: No fixed abode, your honour
Judge to 2nd man: And where do you live?
2nd man: Above him, your honour
I was asked earlier to describe the labour party in one word.
Having thought a while and looking at recent stories such as the one under discussion today, i though of the obvious, useless, liars, etc…
After careful consideration and thinking about the chances of labour ever getting their policies onto the statute books, my single word to describe labour party is ….
Flaccid.
I wish to volunteer to be a policy advisor to Scottish Labour.
I dont think SL could ,if in government, totally mitigate the effects of the cuts in Tax Credits so I suggest using a successful strategy introduced by a Police Force in England that couldn’t afford to cope with all reported burglaries. A tried and tested strategy supported by HM Government.
So, if your street address is an odd number you will get support to mitigate the Tax Credit cuts.
I have more good ideas so Jackie Bailie get in touch as I think we could be a great economics tag team .
There’s a small and bitter part of me that would love to see Labour get into government next year just to watch the mad scramble to find reasons why these amazing promised powers are no longer needed.
Whit an entangled web they weave having set oot tae deceive.
It’s all very surreal since May…in Scotland. For a brief moment in the early hours of the 8th, I thought, now they have to acknowledge and reflect the new political reality given the historically unprecedented change that we witnessed through the night.
But no. We are living in a parallel universe now. We have to resolve that paradox, have our reality reflected back to us as we have created it.
We are going to do this. It is working.
Remember all the conversations on here in the lead up to May? All the doubts about removing the ‘big guns’with their massive majorities?
They must be seeing the same polling patterns as we are…and those internal ones must be truly shocking.
Keep talking to folk, keep reminding them, SNP/SNP.
I’m the only one of ma group of pals that has retained this level of interest since the ref. Keep feeding little bits here and there, reminders…not bombardment.
It’s working.
The Labour party’s desperation. Proves that.
Thepnr says:
One word
Schipoll
Tax credits solution ?
I would like to think that if Scotland gets full control of tax credits it will use such power to phase out tax credits.
Before labour get too excited about that statement, as i have said many times before, the plan is simple and easily done.
Over a set period of time, lets say for arguments sake, the term of a parliament at holyrood, tax credits can be gone completely.
Over the set period mentioned, phase in the Living Wage, (currently paid by the SG) using legislation drafted, preferably, with agreement from Scottish businesses while at the same time reducing tax credits at the same rate as the LW goes up, so that no tax credit claimants lose out financially and employers have 5 years to move to paying a living wage to their employees.
This would grow the Scottish economy massively, people in Scotland would have extra disposable income, which historically is shown, they will spend.
This helps businesses grow, helps local economies and encourages growth overall.
And saves an enormous amount of monies not being paid out in tax credits as they would no longer be required in the future.
THAT is what should have happened previously, tax credits should have been used as a transition to a living wage economy, not an excuse for business to pay low wages knowing the public would pick up the bill for a living income.
Any business who cannot pay the SG living wage within 5 years is probably not going to last long anyway.
This is partly why WM do not want the minimum wage devolved to Scotland, imagine the reaction in england to such a successful policy in Scotland without the need for massive and instant tax credit cuts as proposed and soon to be implemented.
Thepnr says:
5 November, 2015 at 1:36 pm
“Scrapping APD is a no brainer.”
If what Edinburgh Airport et al say is correct off course it is. I can’t for the life of me see why Labour didn’t just say they’d use the money scrapping of APD would eventually bring in to fund the tax credit hole.
If scrapping APD does bring in extra cash, labour can trumpet it was their idea to use this money for the poorest in society. At the same time tying the SG hands on what any extra money raised could be spent on.
If Swinney has to reverse the APD cut for whatever reason, labour will blame the stupid Nationalists for getting it wrong and leaving the poorest worse off.
@cat
I think we all knew you were neither here nor there 🙂
Does this trump Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle?
I think I will go watch some Star Trek as it is easier to comprehend than any SLAB policy.
You should read China Meiville’s ‘City & the city’ to comprehend how Labour can co-exist in the same spaces as regular humans.
For those who have not seen the National today might I suggest thatwe run a wee caption competition for the picture in this article?
http://www.thenational.scot/comment/wee-ginger-dug-dive-dive-labour-sinks-itself-on-trident.9594?utm_medium=social&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_term=Autofeed#link_time=1446707013
My partner has already suggested this:
“Jackie Baillie has just found out that the Holyrood canteen is just serving up salads for lunch today!” 😀
Schrodinger’s Cat: “does this mean I cant go off topic on this thread?”
Ah, the freedom constraints when famous! 🙂
Lesley-Anne says:
5 November, 2015 at 2:20 pm
Caption contest:
“Jackie Bailey sees someone trying to steal her battered trident pudding supper off her desk.”
(thanks to someone on twitter yesterday for the idea 🙂 )
Schrodingers Finance secretary …….
Brilliant.
The one liner of the year
Re caption from Lesley-Anne
“Jackie Baillie reacts to labour plan to impose MSP sugar tax to pay for tax credit mitigation”
“Jackie Baillie opens mouth and inadvertently shows where renewed nuclear deterrent will be stored”
I don’t know if I am on topic or off topic now. I do find it ironic that the UKOK Revenue and Customs is hell bent on screwing one obvious UKOK institution for all that it can get. I think the irony of it would float over UKOK Heids like SLAB policies.
I recently saw a private passenger jet parked at RAF Lossie! I wonder if they paid their APD????
When the Scotland Act is implemented it will be fiscally neutral at point of implementation.
If APD of £250 million is devolved to Scotland, Barnett will be reduced by £250 million. There is no nett gain, the gain is £0.
If the Scottish Government then halve the APD that will mean, if the numbers of APD revenue collected remain the same, there will be £125 billion less revenue. If that stays the same during that year the ScotGov will either have a “black hole ” of £125 million, will have costed it into their budget, or will use some of the £2 billion borrowing I think is in the Scotland Act, to compensate.
The expectation is that numbers of passengers and numbers of flights will rise, so the loss of revenue will be less than £125 million, even in the first year. As numbers of passengers rise in following years, APD total revenue collected will rise from above £125 million, but probably less than £250 million, which would need a doubling of APD incurring passengers.
Meantime, however, it is expected to bring money into the economy. This will lead to a rise in income tax collected, and if Scotland is getting 50% of VAT, then that money collected will rise as well.
Unfortunately Westminster stands to gain, as oft times before, by investment from Scotland without lifting a finger. So Westminster – the Treasury – will gain corporation tax increases on increased profits, and 50% of the VAT, with no investment of their own, no risk.
Hence why to get the full benefit of any economy-increasing measure, Scotland needs FFA.
@Andrew McLean
“Scottish Labour is just a figment of our imagination, thought up by Schrödinger’s cat as he pondered his existence in the relative comfort of his apartment”
I’ve been wishing them out of existence for years
@Dads
cat, I think we all knew you were neither here nor there 🙂
I typed in that in to a French translator, it came back and said
tu t’es perdu!!!
eh mais merde
schrodingers cat says:at 1:36 pm
“Cancel your licence and stop buying newspapers.”
Yes Pixel, I stopped buying newspapers a while back, exception to the rule is the National, but I wouldn’t dare cancel the TV, “she who must be obeyed” would miss the come dancing talent bakeoff factor in the rainforest near Essex.
@Iain More
From memory, the RAF have quite a few plain jets as trainers, and also unmarked transports. However, perhaps with the power over APD, the ScotGov could charge the 50% APD on RAF flights which are presumably currently exempted …
Thepnr says:
There is a reason London Heathrow want a third runway, it brings in revenue, a lot of revenue. I hate having to fly to Heathrow if I want to fly to the US, it’s ridiculous to fly further away before heading for where your going.
bugger (the Panda) says:
5 November, 2015 at 2:06 pm
Thepnr says:
One word
Schipol
I know you hate Heathrow Thepnr … don’t we all! 😉
I also understand you are loathe to fly further AWAY before flying toward the U.S.A. but as Bugger says there is always Schipol that you can use as an alternative as well as Paris and Frankfurt. Both of these other alternatives are just as big as Heathrow with plenty of flights to the U.S.A. and I am sure between the three alternatives you’d find a suitable alternative to flying to Heathrow for a connecting flight.
Don’t forget either Thepnr you can fly direct to New York from S******d! 🙂
United airlines fly out of Edinburgh at 09:05 (UA37)
United airlines also fly out of Glasgow at 09:00 (UA162)
I realise these two flights may not be the best if you want to go to the USA but they are an additional alternative for you to consider Thepnr. 😉
My good lady came in the other day and said that she decided not to buy a new winter coat and therefor we should use the money and go out for a meal. Brilliant said I, however if she had only decided not to buy a mink coat we could have gone on holiday to the Bahamas.
Quantum political theory certainly holds true in that the observer (media ) distorts the subject being observed.
But can’t Labour use the £ billions from Scotland being under the broad shoulders of the UK?
O/T
BBC journalist “Trust nothing you read or watch”, “I am ashamed to be a journalist”.
‘In a moving blogpost, BBC Bristol presenter John Darvall blames the fact he is in the public eye and is engaged to an MP for the awful way his family were treated by the press after a recent tragic loss in his family.’
https://archive.is/qv3Qy
Sad for his troubles obvs. But when their own start lambasting them you know the game is nearly up.
“But he will be producing his plans before that so lets wait and see what he’s cutting,” says Gerard Killen.
Wow, so Labour say that they are waiting to see what Swinney would cut in order to afford the APD cut and then Labour would copy those cuts.
Not only do they think Swinney will have to make budget cuts to afford APD cuts (instead of it paying for itself) but they will then copy those budget cuts regardless of what or where they are in order to afford tax credit payments.
They have just admitted that they will have to make £250m cuts to other budgets to implement their tax credit policy.
And remarkably it won’t be cuts of their choosing, they’ll be happy to duplicate what they think Swinney will have to cut. Because they don’t understand that cutting APD should bring in more money, not less.
And these people want to run our country. God help us.
@yesindyref2
That’s the way I read it dads.
There is no windfall, no extra cash. Its the very definition of zero detriment. The only ‘new’ aspect will be the power to raise, lower or cut the duty will reside in Edinburgh rather than London.
Its all pretty moot anyroads. The power and the revenue stream are not here now and won’t be for another three years. Actions thereafter to act on any austerity measures may take another two years beyond that to effect. Labour are screwing with people’s hopes and fears in the now, with cash that doesn’t exist, in a budget that is set to decrease in the future, solely to point score.
Pretty grim.
“…If Labour are to implement their scheme, they have to win the election. But if they win the election, John Swinney won’t be the finance minister. If John Swinney isn’t the finance minister, APD won’t be cut. If it hasn’t been cut, it can’t be restored.”
I just loved that summary of the topic 😀
Their policy ONLY works if THEY cut money from another area.
Andrew McLean says:
5 November, 2015 at 2:35 pm
schrodingers cat says:at 1:36 pm
“Cancel your licence and stop buying newspapers.”
Yes Pixel, I stopped buying newspapers a while back, exception to the rule is the National, but I wouldn’t dare cancel the TV, “she who must be obeyed” would miss the come dancing talent bakeoff factor in the rainforest near Essex.
Ruby Replies
You can watch all these programmes FOC on the internet using catch-up/iplayer. Just hook up a computer to your 75″ TV.
This is about football
The bad news for those who watch football on Sky is there is no catch-up on Sky or so I’m told. I can understand why mad football fans buy a TV licence but not fans of soaps, bake-offs and strictly x-factor!
by the way, Schrodinger was wrong
this cat is alive, dead, and bloody furious
tp.
“We would use the new powers to ensure that those who are in receipt of tax credits do not lose out from George Osborne’s pernicious work penalty. Why? Because tax credits work. They have lifted hundreds of thousands of children out of poverty and let working families aspire to more than just making it to the end of the month.”
Iam Murray, last of hard core UKOK SLab whopper tellers in Embro UKOK Evening Times.
If future Lord Murray of Morningside thinks “George Osborne’s pernicious work penalty” really is “pernicious” why oh why oh why, did he not red tory vote against it when he had the opportunity, then tell us all he had voted against blue tory perniciousness?
http://wingsoverscotland.com/ian-murray-is-a-liar/
As per BBC reprobates didnt query future Lord Ian’s nation wide UKOK whopper and why would they.
So its actually three states Schrodinger, if you’re a SLab dude, lie, lie more, lie even harder.
Ian Murray’s mega whoppers aside “perniciousness” is actually a word and fun to say, unless you voted for SLabour goons like future Lord Murray of Mayfair.
Pixel says…….ruby is right
also, even if you do watch live, just ignore any letters, phone calls or visits form the BBC or tv licence collectors
The law is only enforcable in the parallel world the unionists exist in
Schrödinger’s cat also rears its ugly head in the Carmichael case:
“If I was still a minister this would have been a resigning matter, but I am no longer a minister so it is no longer a resigning matter.”
Or, putting it another way: “Wrongs I committed in the past are no longer wrongs if I am no longer in the job.”
“Simultaneous existence in opposing states” hardly begins to describe the condtradictions and inconsistencies daily foisted upon us and left unchallenged by Unionist media propagandists.
Surely even the gullible Scottish public cannot maintain belief in this towering edifice of lies much longer?
There are no short planks of adequate thickness to compare to the thickness of the above-mentioned unemployed tuba enthusiast.
“Schrödinger’s cat also rears its ugly head in the Carmichael case:
“If I was still a minister this would have been a resigning matter, but I am no longer a minister so it is no longer a resigning matter.”
Or as the man accused of murdering his wife put it:
“Had I killed her when her husband it would be a hanging matter. As I killed her after she divorced me it is not a hanging matter.”
Buddy Holly still lives!
The many shows and tribute acts attest to this.
Once there was a Football club called Rangers FC, est. 1872
Now there is an imitation tribute act that looks kind of similar but is a poor reflection of the original. It is also well on the way to it’s own bankruptcy.
But Rangers (#nosurrender) is too big to fail so its corpse will be strapped to the horse again for all to see its decrepit, rotting remains.
A bit like the DR and the rest of the corrupt corporate media that supports it.
I do admire the way the Better Together tag team continue to work in harmony post referendum:
1. Tory tax credit cuts
2. Labour wild promises of 100% restoration of income
3. Combined Conservative & Labour party attack (with press support) Scottish government to announce an uncosted policy
This is why Baroness Goldie felt able to make her significantly ridiculous intervention at FMQs.
Grouse Beater @3:11pm
Or as the man accused of murdering his parents put it:
“M’lord, please bear in mind you will be sentencing a man who has just been cruelly orphaned.”
@ Lesley-Anne
Bailey caption competition – MEP reacts to nhs survey on subject of ‘should fat positions be allowed to serve in the Labour party”
Subject to bE debated on call Kay with an e
Did we not establish on a previous thread that Jackie Baillie is a super dense mass into which all information disappears and none can be emitted?
Now it appears that JB is a fractal of the entire SLAB galaxy, each part perfectly reproducing the same superdensity. The corporate media reflect this informationless quality being of a similar nature. Dense.
Baillie getting a bit of a kinking in the MSM
Not everyone can. Be at the top of a list Jackie …….
The cows are coming home to roost now the rubinesque lady has started to sing
That was quite a spanking Nicola handed out to Annabel and Ms Ballie today at FMQ. I bet that will sting for a while!
I wonder if the BBC managed to omit broadcasting it.
Capella @ 3:29pm
Hawking recently revised his “superdensity” theory.
He now says tiny bubbles of methane gas can escape back into our space-time continuum if sufficient quantities of pies have been sucked into the black hole.
He calls these “Finite Analog Reality Transformation” events, or FARTs for short.
Thepnr I’m in the states just now (New York) Iceland air from Glasgow £340 return and you can stop off in Scotland’s only International friend for up to seven days for nowt and get chastised by the locals for not voting yes as I did ( they were on about Scotland not me 🙂 )
In a previous life I travelled a lot and would not use Heathrow and went to Amsterdam instead, it did ma heid in leaving my house in Aberdeen at 5am and be flying over it again at 12 midday ( I actually saw it several times) via iceland is way to go only 1 hour 20 mins to Keflavik from Glasgow
And connecting flights to several destinations in usa/Canada. Bit expensive for grub at airport/ plane but flights being cheap help in that regard.
Local papers are reporting that “the Donald” as they call Trump here is most popular amongst republicans for presidential nomination. Let’s hope Hillary wins but after two terms by a Democrat it’s probably the Republicans turn. Isn’t it nice to think that a 2nd generation Scot can reach the highest office in the land in the usa but a Scot (or Welsh) can’t in the so called mother of parliaments?
God help us , being a Pastarafarian I should have put may his noodle ness help us but nobody would know what I meant.
Bollox
If everyone starts calling slab the Schrödinger’s cat part, SCP,
I will need to get a new profile
How would you like it if everyone started calling slab
The rev stu party
The dad’s army party
The Robert peffers party
The lanarkist party
The Paula rose party?
The Conan the librarian party
(Think Conan has trademarked that one)
Or the heed tracker and grouse beater party?
Have a heart guys
Schrodingers cat says:
5 November, 2015 at 3:34 pm
Baillie getting a bit of a kinking in the MSM
Not everyone can. Be at the top of a list Jackie …….
The cows are coming home to roost now the rubinesque lady has started to sing
Ruby replies
The cows! Freudian slip?
I would suggest she is more Beryl Cookesque rather than Rubinesque
Mmm
Slab…so dense, light bends round it
As Mhairi Hunter tweeted, Its clearly on the record in Scottish Parliamentary business report of 4 November that all Labour MSPs voted against tax credits, employment rights and the minimum wage being devolved to the Scottish Parliament.
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=10177&i=93820 S4M-14688.3
The policy levers that Labour has referred to will not be devolved to us until next year, the power to set the higher rate threshold for income tax will come to the Scottish Parliament from April 2017 at the earliest, and responsibility for air passenger duty will not be devolved until 2018.
This is why you’re the best journalist currently operating in the UK. Brilliant debunk of their deceit.
It would be good if someone here who understands such things could give an example of how much a return flight to say, Alicante, might cost after the SNP’s proposed cut to APD. That would allow people like me to understand exactly how it might affect me.
Having said that, in other news, my family are leaving Scotland within the month. We kinda don’t have a choice but I’m happy with that. I just can’t go on lving in a country where 50% of it’s population are so fucking stupid that they can’t see just how much they’re being used & abused. It’s with a heavy heart that I’ll leave but it’s time to admit to myself that my struggle for Scotland’s independence has failed.
Mmm
Slab…so dense, light bends round it
Slab…the incompleteness party
You cannot know for certain that what I am saying is true 🙂
Ruby, cows, nope Freudian, not sure where that quote came from social media a few months back
The metaphor which I think exemplfies Scottish Labour’s role is that of shooting / hunting. The Tories set the fiscal traps (guns) in the Scotland Act, Labour’s role as “beaters” is to drive the SG as the “game” towards the traps. Don’t think Labour have realise this since they no longer seem to be able to differentiate between doing down the SNP and doing down Scotland.
Suspect the SG and the Scottish electorate have rather more brains than the average game bird.
Can someone tell me why Bella Goldie can sit in the Scottish parliament and also have a seat in the house of Lords?
gerry parker says:
5 November, 2015 at 3:39 pm
That was quite a spanking Nicola handed out to Annabel and Ms Ballie today at FMQ. I bet that will sting for a while!
I wonder if the BBC managed to omit broadcasting it.
Ruby replies
They written quite a reasonable article about it entitled
‘Nicola Sturgeon pledges ‘credible’ tax credit plan’
Not quite sure why they have ‘credible’ in inverted commas I’m assuming it is to emphasise the fact that there are other tax credit plans that are not credible.
I haven’t watched FMQ I have to wait for it to appear on iplayer unless someone can tell me if it’s available on Holyrood TV.
Schrödinger’s cat 3.44
Paula Rose party? The mind boggles.
Almannys bunnet 3.54
Have you seen the size of her doup?
I love the intelligence, humour and wit shown by posters on almost every thread on WOS.
What a contrast with the bitter, lying UKOK Proudscotbtts.
Slightly O/T and absolutely not fitba
but related to “…parties could just send their press releases to newspapers to be printed directly without any journalistic intervention”.
I am a bit confused about the rest of the non-fitba piece. Is anyone seriously suggesting that there is anything other than a dead Labour cat in the box?
Admire all options but “Grouse Beater Party” has , IMHO , edged it.
Onybudy thats been on the hill will tell yea!
PLus there is a wee bit o ……. minglin’ wi the toffs!
Schrodingers cat
http://tinyurl.com/neuf48r
A fine example of Beryl Cooks work. Now don’t tell me you can’t imagine Jackie Baillie in that outfit on her night our with here three cats! I understand Jackie is a cat lover. Interested?
I just catch imagine her in a Rubens painting but hey everyone can have their own fantasy.
http://tinyurl.com/nq6y8fa
mealer says:
“Paula Rose party? The mind boggles.”
You don’t know what you’ve been missing mealer 🙂
@R-Type Grunt
Sorry you have to leave but daily sure I speak for everyone here, THE FIGHT GOES ON!
Haste ye back!
Type-R Grunt: ” I just can’t go on lving in a country where 50% of it’s population are so fucking stupid that they can’t see just how much they’re being used & abused.
It invades your psyche every day.
“It’s with a heavy heart that I leave.
We wish you happiness, and keep in touch!
Schrodingers Cat says “Baillie getting a bit of a kinking in the MSM”
A kinking ?? How wonderfully seedy. I’d like* to see that, do you have a link?
*Woudn’t like it. Boak.
@ruby
Not yet.
http://www.scottishparliament.tv/category.aspx?id=34
Tackety Beets: ““Grouse Beater Party” has, IMHO, edged it.
🙂
Clan Donald 4.18
See Thepnr post above at 4.09
Clandonald
That was an autocorrect, honest
But
See ruby’s links to beryl cooks work, and just imagine Jackie bailie
Nope, those images will haunt me forever, thanks ruby 🙁
“um…does this mean, technically, I cant go off topic on this thread?”
Smart Alec!
Or is he?
ClanDonald says:
5 November, 2015 at 4:18 pm
Schrodingers Cat says “Baillie getting a bit of a kinking in the MSM”
A kinking ?? How wonderfully seedy. I’d like* to see that, do you have a link?
*Woudn’t like it. Boak.
Ruby Replies
Is she wearing her gold shorts?
A lot of talk about kinks & kats today. Wee Ginger Dug says:
LABOUR’S Trident policy has more kinks than Davie Cameron on a pig farm.
Maria represents Labour’s quantum of soul loss, and Labour is now simultaneously against renewing Trident and in favour of it. It’s a bit like Schroedinger’s cat, which was famously either alive or dead at the same time, only in Labour’s case we know that the cat is definitely dead and definitely not bouncing like Tigger.
No sign of the ‘sensible one’ today? I was hoping to make a few hundred quid offering him cyber dates!
Ruby:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T88ohm2C3sI&list=PL4l0q4AbG0mnVsKDGswgL2CUUNzzMlNCT&index=1
SLAB……The grouse beater party
World famous in inverbraw
Sniggering at clan Donald
That was one hell of a typo. 🙂
cynicalHighlander
Thank you! 😀
‘Certain viewers should steel themselves at this point, because we’re about to briefly talk about football’
Who are these ‘certain viewers’ that Stu is referring to?
You’ll find today’s FMQ’s here:-
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMfSH3HULOeoeEbxHkqF21A
(The Scottish Parliament channel)
Lesley-Anne says:
Caption – Jackie Bailey reading SLAB voter numbers day after elections.
Surely “the cows coming home to roost”, is less freudian slip and more FRESIAN slip…?
Dear mr king
You let me know just who was in the panda suits during the ref….
ruby
worried about your present obsession with Jaclyn baillie
Clan Donald
Really really worried about your present obsession with Jackie bailie
http://tinyurl.com/psmn7np
Not to worry! There are at least 101 uses for a dead cat!
Capella says:
5 November, 2015 at 3:29 pm
“Did we not establish on a previous thread that Jackie Baillie is a super dense mass into which all information disappears and none can be emitted?”
You really are saying a Black Hole! Hope it finds Jackie Bailey very soon.
ClanDonald says:
5 November, 2015 at 2:44 pm
“But he will be producing his plans before that so lets wait and see what he’s cutting,” says Gerard Killen.
Not just Killen. I’ve had a twitter conversation with Blair McD this afternoon and he says the same thing.
To quote him – “This isn’t hard. We inherit existing govt spending plans. We don’t do cuts in these. So we’ll have additional revenue”
Amazing.
@ Lesley Anne
Caption competition
“Jackie perfecting the art of taking selfies.”
I preferred Labour under Johann Lamont when they were unable to describe any policies because they permanently needed to have a debate about it first.
The debate must have happened because now we are seeing policies being formed, but if you can make any sense of them you are a better man than me.
Damn that pesky no edit function.
Actual quote from Blair McD was: “This isn’t hard. We inherit existing govt spending plans. We won’t do tax cuts within those. So we’ll have additional revenue”
@ Les Wilson That’s right, I’m talking infinity density here.
But see David McDowell at 3.40 for an ingenious revision
@ R-Type Grunt
There is always the internet – hope you keep on posting wherever in the world you may be. There are people posting here who live in London you know. You can’t get much more remote than that.
O/t Thepnr
I posted some thing an hour I’d so ago but not appeared so will post an abridged version.
Try iceland air I’m in New York just now £340 return with 3 days in iceland (up to a week with no increase in fare) u won’t get cheaper than that according to info on ticket airline only get £52
(Don’t know if that’s each way or return) rest is apd
R-type Grunt says:
5 November, 2015 at 3:51 pm
“It would be good if someone here who understands such things could give an example of how much a return flight to say, Alicante, might cost after the SNP’s proposed cut to APD.”
Band A flights (less than 2000 miles) have APD of £13 per leg of the journey. So if the SG cut the cost by 50% it would be £6.50 per leg. This is in Economy Class, anything higher (e.g. Business Class) is currently charged at double that rate.
Band B flights (>2000 miles) have APD of £71 per leg of the journey. So if the SG cut the cost by 50% it would be £35.50 per leg. This is in Economy Class, anything higher (e.g. Business Class) is currently charged at double that rate.
Rates from the ABTA website.
Caption: Baillie’s non-event horizon.
Btw: scotgoespop asking for donations.
Kezia Dugdale … TELT!
Willie Rennie … Lost in the undergrowth!
Annabel Goldie … TELT!
Jackie Baillie … TELT!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T88ohm2C3sI
Scot Goes Pop fundraiser link.
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/the-scot-goes-pop-hot-chocolate.html
Schrodingers cat says: 3:49 pm
“Slab…so dense, light bends round it”
No Pixel, not density but mass, as you know Henry Cavendish came up with the theory, Fritz Zwicky postulated massive objects would act as a gravitational lens.
So you could say the background source coming into contact with Labour would be magnified and distorted so as to give a corrupted view, with S Labour the distortions caused by Lensing is strong!
Rev wrote:
“The lines above were issued to the press yesterday by The Rangers International Football Club plc, a football club (the clue’s in the name) formed in 2012, yet which lays claim to the history and achievements of a previous club of a similar name which was liquidated for bankruptcy the same year, having been formed in 1872.”
And a wee birdy tells me the next reincarnation is to be known as:
ScrotumGers FC = (Filthy C@nts)
Regarding Rangers, I think it’s important to understand that perspective is everything. You can say what you like to satisfy your inner hatred and jealousy but you can never change anything in the eyes of the fans.
Stoker
Un necessary
@ Schrod – Aye, right, dad!
Better still – ScrotumGers Filthy Chanters.
Just watched FMQ thanks for the youtube links.
Demolished is the word, Annabel Goldie so fast she looked shocked rigid. Completely caught out as she voted FOR Osborne’s original plans to savage tax credits which her own Holyrood leader was against.
“Swinney’s case, in any event, is that he won’t have to make savings elsewhere to pay for the APD cut at all, because it’ll pay for itself by attracting more flights, business, tourists and jobs to Scottish airports. A report by Edinburgh Airport in March this year claimed that initially halving the tax at a cost of £125m a year (which is Swinney’s plan) would bring about £200m of economic benefits to Scotland, a net GAIN of £75m.”
Dodgy economics here. The £125M is a cut to tax revenues. The £200M is an increase in Gross Value Added (GVA). These are not directly comparably although the latter is a “good thing”.
The report suggests that the net change to tax revenues, if APD were to be entirely abolished, is, for the UK, is virtually break even.
Razor sharp journalism at its best from Wings Over Scotland again.
Uncontestable clarity and accuracy, which by their absence, even the BritNat desperadoes cannot muster a defence.
I’m out
So folks, what do you make of Rutherglens finest? (actually that place is reserved for James Kelly) 😉
A serious question, why do you think a councillor would be talking about politics outwith his remit? – Maybe to save having to listen to Kelly’s attempt at an answer 😀
There’s constantly folk opinioning on stuff that’s got nothing to do with their jobs – I think it’s to blur the lines as to who’s in control (or to blame) of what.
Also, as we saw at the GE, there seems to be a strategy since the referendum of running one general, continuous campaign encompassing all elections at least until council2017. This tactic appears to be borne of a herd mentality – strength in numbers for defence and the confidence of back-up when attacking.
What a sorry state that once proud party has gotten itself into.
Regarding ‘what’s in the box’ speculations – I submit that the cat’s long gone having left a pile of used kitty-litter!
Schrodingers cat says:
I’m out
Can you be sure ?
Inverness airport is getting a new connection with BA to the mighty Heathrow next year.
The only reason this is happening is to make it look like Heathrow is a hub for domestic flights, and to make sure we pay for the new runway.
I remember when BA took our connection away in 1997, and a month later, the slot was used for more lucrative long haul flights.( we will get shafted again)
The Scots will get saddled with our unfair share of the debt.
Scotland must get direct flights to anywhere in the world, If I have to get connecting flights when travelling to certain countries, I always look at European hubs rather than the saf east.
I have been ripped off too many times at Heathrow, they can go and F**K themselves
This thread is a clear demonstration of why Yes lost the Referendum.
Here we are, concentrating on the political arguments put forward in the post, and completely ignoring the Rangers Tribute Act (RTA) issue.
Had this been a post in a MSM website – there would have been minimum focus on the political issues, and thousands of posts mainly of the “whitabootery” type, concerning the ongoing travails of Ra Peepul.
Until we lift the attention of the UKOK no-thankers, away from the affairs of the Bigot Brothers and onto more-important matters, we will struggle to win our freedom.
I used to think the antics of the RTA was the funniest thing in Scotland. Now, and more-so after FMQs today, I find the antics of SLTC (Scottish Labour Tribute Act) both funnier and more serious – as befits this thread.
Re comment about getting the message out on alternative media
Could we consider Pirate Radio Scotland being resurrected and incorporate television?
Maybe the ‘bright young things’ on this site could consider a modern mass market alternative?
@Phil Robertson “The report suggests that the net change to tax revenues, if APD were to be entirely abolished, is, for the UK, is virtually break even.”
We’re talking about Scotland Phil, it’s a bit different! The UK is not Scotland, and Scotland is not the UK.
I see our old fiend Magnus has an article supposedly about FMQ which presumably he disappeared into an alterate dimension to watch.
It’s sad that Labour in Scotland have to rely on bent journalism, whereas all people have to do is spend a short and amusing half hour watching FMQ on the parliament channel, recorded on the Scottish parliament website, or on youtube, to see for themselves.
Has not Annabelle Goldie’s performance this week been a tribute to Schrodinger’s cat?
Baroness Goldie can, in the House of Lords vote for tax credit cuts, so Annabelle Goldie MSP can, in Holyrood, complain about the Scottish Government not guaranteeing to reverse these cuts.
Or, is she just a typical two-faced Toe-rag?
I smell something fishy in that box. Is it really a dead cat, or a box of bullshit filled by Scottish Labour fake concern about the wmds lying off Glasgow?
A shower of hypocrites the lot of the.
Stephen.
@Jim McIntosh
Thanks for that explanation pal. What an eye-opener! I do feel that if the APD topic were addressed more often in this way it would have a bigger impact on the common man & woman.
They really need to do something about the insect infestation in the debating chamber at SP
Baroness Goldie looked like she was chewing a wasp !
FMQs today: premiere Nicola 4 Numpties 0
Kez – A silly giggly wee lassy with zero ability or grasp of politics or life.
JB. – A very large wind bag who only opens her mouth to change feet and let her belly rumble! oo!
WR – A nonentity just a clown with zero grasp of anything, should not be out on his own.
AG. – A very deflated and punctured Baroness Goldie of Bishopton. And her face was shut. The noble Baroness was absolutely bealing. Wunnerful just Wunnerful.
bjsalba,
“Not having to go via Heathrow which I think of as The Airport from Hell would be wonderful. Their ability to a) break my luggage, and b) lose my luggage is unmatched by any other British airport.”
The airport where the Lockerbie bomb was planted.
I think that one of my favourite authors of the recent past sums up my feelings about the Corporate media scrotes who manufacture what passes for ‘news’ in this country:
” Journalism is not a profession or a trade. It is a cheap catch-all for fuckoffs and misfits—a false doorway to the backside of life, a filthy piss-ridden little hole nailed off by the building inspector, but just deep enough for a wino to curl up from the sidewalk and masturbate like a chimp in a zoo-cage.”
? Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas .
A very entertaining article and comments, merci’s.
Are we coming or going or already there..
O/T
Hmm, I posted about an hour and a half ago, and there’s no sign of it. This has never happened to me before 🙁
(my post was brilliance, of course 😉 I was reflecting on the extraordinary talents we have here representing the Rutherglen area, and there was even a wee joke at the end! Oh well, nevermind)
R-type Grunt,
“I just can’t go on lving in a country where 50% of it’s population are so fucking stupid that they can’t see just how much they’re being used & abused.”
10-15% or so of that 50% is the dying elderly British Nationalist proud of the British Empire stupid generation.
The rest of the 50% is not stupid but selfish and includes many whose loyalty is to our southern neighbour rather than to Scotland.
If the SNP wins big in 2016, it must start asserting its authority.
Otherwise we are doomed.
Is it just me? I feel when reading such articles re Scotland’s journos & politicians, that I have slipped, without noticing this slip, into a bizarre parallel universe.
How do I get back to the REAL universe? You know the one I mean. Thon universe where: Scotland voted YES on the 18th, we all heard Cameron’s resignation speech as last UK PM, Her Madge pooed outside her litter tray, whilst new rUK leader Osborne gibbered, ‘Of course there will be a pound zone with Scotland. We didn’t really mean all that. Just our little joke’…
And, of course the Scotland rugby team beat Australia, but only to lose to NZ in the final.
Well come on, now. You have to keep it real, folks.
Let me out of here! I want home!
Schrodingers cat says:
5 November, 2015 at 6:08 pm
I’m out
and in:D
FFS – this shower gets worse by the day.
The entire SLAB branch membership consists of lifetime members of the Flat Earth Society, and as for the MSM, well, words simply fail me…
Have just watched FMQ from today , Nicola in fine fighting form , left them all minced. I loved the way she dealt with Johnston frae Aberdeen , now to be forever Leery Johnston! (Try to remember this in future ,folks)
Nicola was on fire today. I have to take back everything I said about her being too nicey nicey!
Still it’s shame that she keeps telling Cybernats to be nice!
@ian foulds 6:30pm
Crowd fund the purchase of an old oil rig, plant it in the Forth just outside UK waters, declare it the ‘Republic of Scotland’ and start up Radio Free Scotland. Check out the story of Sealand.
Strange how that poll showing 68% snp in the constituency vote for the 18-34 bracket seems to pass without too much fuss. You pick up a newspaper or listen to the radio and you’d think we were living under the most repressive and incompetent administration conceivable.
The SNP is not a cult- it is a successful political party that is competent and responsible in government, and the people recognise this.
It’s taken many years of graft to get there but we finally have a government we can get behind.
Barring disaster we should be looking at a fresh, strong mandate in May. If, when that comes to pass can I suggest we develop some merchandise to be produced on the dawn of a new Holyrood majority.
I keep thinking how much the BBC Scotland logo looks like ‘the bird’ or ‘the finger’. A slogan such as:
The BBC tried. The daily record tried. The labour branch office tried. Scotland will not be intimidated anymore. GTF
Or something along those lines.
Schrodingers cat says:
5 November, 2015 at 4:29 pm
Clandonald
That was an autocorrect, honest
But
See ruby’s links to beryl cooks work, and just imagine Jackie bailie
Nope, those images will haunt me forever, thanks ruby 🙁
Ruby replies,
http://tinyurl.com/oxn6rho
Is that better? Another of Beryl’s works of art featuring her favourite model.
It’s great that Jackie Baillie has her modelling career to fall back on next year.
She has been modelling for Beryl Cook on a part-time basis for quite a long time now.
geeo says:
5 November, 2015 at 4:38 pm
Surely “the cows coming home to roost”, is less freudian slip and more FRESIAN slip…?
Jeez Oh geeo; That made me laugh. 😀
I’m a bit worried about everyone talking about cheap flights out of town surely the idea behind a cut in APD is to attract tourists. Bring people to Scotland. Perhaps not a good idea to listen to Kezia’s views on APD.
Schrodingers cat says:
I’m out
No problem as long as no-one looks at you, when you might find yourself instantly in and dead. Or alive, if any body can survive travel faster than light.
Interesting to think that 180 years ago in the days of the Stockton and Darlington railway, people worried about being unable to breathe out if you travelled at more than the 30 mph of a galloping horse.
Just watched the First Minister endure an orchestrated barrage from all the opposition parties. No wonder she looked beelin’ .
Time for the Scottish people to get rid of all Labour, Liberal and Tory MSP’s in Holyrood. Vote for SNP but remember RISE, Respect, the Green Party, we must be rid of these Westminster based parasites or there will be no hope for Scotland. The rest of the UK is totally f**ked in their hands.
Failure to remove these parasites from office next May will result in a lot more people besides R-Type Grunt and his family leaving these shores!
I’m certain that if we brought in a referee to look at the Rangers situation they would indeed be given a penalty, and a re-take if they missed it!
Could I request that the SNP takes out advertisements across the unionist presses of England, to offer the soon to be abused English Junior Doctors a place in Scotland.
They would be made most welcome North of the Border where the government cares about the health service, its patients and doctors, and where we will not tolerate privatisation, where the cost of quality housing is generally lower, and where the foundations of a fair and just society is being constructed.
PS Has anyone enquired if the refugees have doctors, nurses, teachers or any other vital skills that we all could benefit from?
I’m worried about Davy, the Sevco Unionist one and not the nice sheep bothering gentleman who also posts here, what with all this Oldco business.
Those poor Sevco fans must be utterly perplexed that the establishment is going after a club which they think is part of the establishment. In the name of the wee man have they not suffered enough? I think that they have. Being suckered by Shooter McGavin was bad enough Shirley?
NS managed to cut through all the BS surrounding tax credits in 30 very entertaining minutes today.
The hypocrites, the chancers and the downright stupid will be wishing they had left a bit of doubt by keeping their mouths shut today.
Well worth watching if you haven’t already.
When we’ve got that oil-rig broadcasting Radio Free Scotland I’m moving Off-topic onto the upper deck.
Kenny – Jealous of Rangers (old or new)??? Ha! I’m mighty glad I don’t support a club that cheated the rest of Scottish football for a decade, which we knew even before yesterday as it is “common sense” that those players would have gone elsewhere if the carrot of tax free “loans” hadn’t been dangled in front of them. Hope your new club dies too. A loathsome entity with some of the worst knuckle draggers in the country supporting it.
Re the comments above about a Pirate Radio Station, I for one would pay shed loads to crowdfund that.
We need spoken word out there.
MrObycyek says:
“I’m worried about Davy,”
Me too, Davy is the No voter we need to persuade.
The ORIGINAL Radio Scotland, from the 60s.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_78qsRhdDDE
@scotsbob says: 5 November, 2015 at 1:12 pm:
” … In the case of Labour and the Daily Record I assumed this has always been the case.”
Perhaps so, Scotsbob, but I have the feeling that in many cases, (think of the VOW), it is the Daily Record telling Labour’s branch office in Scotland to do as they are told.
@Almannysbunnet says: 5 November, 2015 at 3:54 pm:
“Can someone tell me why Bella Goldie can sit in the Scottish parliament and also have a seat in the house of Lords?”
Aye! It’s because she has an afu big earse.
@Ruby says: 5 November, 2015 at 8:10 pm:
“Still it’s shame that she keeps telling Cybernats to be nice!”
As the old Ella Fitzgerrald song says, Ruby,
Robert Peffers,
I’m not usually to keen on ‘personal’ comments but
‘Aye! It’s because she has an afu big earse.’
is absolutely brilliant.
OT but APD raises my curiosity.
What revenue, apart from community charge, remains in Scotland? Can somebody help me?
I can think of no other.
To elaborate on the community charge, this is raised & spent in Scotland by local councils.
However, of the total amount, how much is sent back to Westminster?
Senarios:
Council employs contractor. Contractor pays VAT. Goes to Westminster.
Contractor pays staff. Income Tax goes to Westminster.
Council pays own staff. Income Tax goes to Westminster.
Council requires transport, vans, lorries, etc. Provides fuel, pays various road fund fees, fuel duty,etc. Goes to Westminster.
I could go on but adding all things up, one Hell of a percentage of locally raised revenue ends up in, you’ve guessed, Westminster.
@bugger (the Panda)
I agree with Schiphol as an alternative to Heathrow. From Scotland the distance is about the same but people, and travel agents don’t consider it because it’s ‘foreign’. It used to be a black hole for checked luggage but they have fixed that. Regular flights from Scottish airports.
Or fly to Newark from Paisley if heading for the US and go from there.
I share the loathing of most of the contributors to this site for Heathrow. If I wish to travel east I can go through Dubai or the other Gulf airports. If I wish to travel to North America I can do so through JFK (direct flight), Newark, or Dublin.
On APD – if it were cut, it would make it easier for Scottish residents to travel overseas and spend their money offshore. This would have to be offset against any benefits from more foreign spending within Scotland, and I don’t think the economic analyses have allowed for this.
Not sure I agree with the finding in the Rangers case as it’s not what they were actually doing.
The scheme was that as part of the renumeration package they instituted what they claimed was some kind of investment portfolio that would mature at a future date. Call it a pension if you like. They also had various payments in kind such as cars and gym memberships but HMRC were only really interested in the money.
Now the important point about all that is that when all this was happening any income you received from abroad wasn’t taxed here so the additional factor was that this investment was made offshore and advances were given on that, or as Rangers would have it loans. That’s where it starts getting dodgy as there’s no indication how those investments actually worked. Even if they were from a high interest account with a guaranteed income it still begs the question where the initial investment came from. The same laws regarding pensions should surely have applied at that point.
The next part is where it gets highly dubious and where the actions of HMRC need to be questioned by anyone regardless of their political stance. The reason these overseas “investments” were being used is, as I said, to avoid paying tax. The writing on the wall for Rangers was that at some point they’d have to pay our and that before then the government had gotten wise and closed the loophole. When the time came to pay there would now be a tax liability. Given just how much Rangers had used them it was going to be fucking enormous. The clock was ticking and even without HMRC jumping in the club was heading for the rocks.
HMRC’s case is that they should be paid in advance which seems wrong, like requiring you to pay all your income tax at the start of the year. Admittedly they might reasonably examine the books and deduce that to all intents the “off shore” investment earned sod all interest implying that money was simply being laundered in an attempt to avoid tax.
The SFA case is much simpler. All remuneration is meant to be declared including “pensions”. It’s nothing to do with how much Rangers were spending on their team. It’s to do with the non declaration of it all. Even if the HMRC case were dropped it wouldn’t matter. The legality of EBT’s is not strictly relevant. They broke the rules.
The other point is that due to a lack of preparation Rangers didn’t create a kernel of a “club” that could hold it’s membership of the SFA and be sold as a going concern. Even if they talk of Murray Holdings as being liable the problem is that that was the company who the SFA had on record as being the member of the SFA. Hopefully they’ve sorted that now. I think there are other clubs out there who’ve done so.
On a more relevant note.
The only credible reason for decreasing airport tax is to increase the use of our airports and thus increase revenue. It’s not a case of reduce it or mitigate tax credit cuts. It’s do the first in order to be able to do the latter.
Celtic might have been glad to see the back of Rangers, in any form, but be careful what you wish for, gentlemen: the lack of a strong domestic competitor and the way Celtic get done like a dinner in Europe, are not-unrelated.
Harry McAye 9.55pm
“A loathsome entity”
At least we can all agree, if nothing else, that Rangers is an entity.
Businesses and owners will come and go, but that entity will always exist no matter what people say.
And sorry for your hurt over the years being humped and utterly humiliated by the mighty Glasgow Rangers.
I hope it still doesn’t hurt too much and you get over it soon.
Basically Labour are saying John Swinney is the best Financial expert we have in Scotland and they will vote SNP to make sure JS is in position to manage the budget.
Rev Stu – I am not sure about you query over “its history”
Rangers do have a history – it is just that it only goes back 3 and 1/2 years.
Kenny – You support Cheats FC, that stain will never leave your club. I feel sorry for you.
Harry McAye 1.52pm
So be it.
handclapping says:5 Nov 8:43
Schrödinger’s cat says:
“if any body can survive travel faster than light.”
“Interesting to think that 180 years ago in the days of the Stockton and Darlington railway, people worried about being unable to breathe out if you travelled at more than the 30 mph of a galloping horse.”
Ok, bear with me this gets weird Pixel and Handclapping, you can’t travel even at at the speed of light, even using all of the potential energy on earth you would not, could not generate enough energy to propel you anywhere near the speed of light, in fact you would get to the dizzy speed of 0% the speed of light, however if you were and again you can’t, it’s not a case of if you can survive, remember this is relativity for you everything would remain normal what happens is a relativistic effect known as the dilation of time, the faster that you move with respect to the planet , the more time slows down on the planet from your perspective. From the perspective of a person on earth as you approach the speed of light nothing happens.
But for you this time dilation effect becomes more and more pronounced because as you travel time will stop completely on earth but obviously only from your perspective. Imagine you are a light beam, a photon and have just left a distant sun in a far of galaxy and are travelling to earth, when we look at the light on earth the time it’s taken for you to travel here could be many years, but from your perspective no time will have elapsed.
That is why the geo satellite’s that run car sat navigation systems run faster than clocks on earth, is all relative, the closer to a massive object the more time slows down. Just to confuse you the space station clocks run slower, as the time for them from our perspective runs slower, the astronauts actually do age less than people on earth, that probably explains why you are still with us, from the perspective here on earth you must be about 90 years old, and a venerable old cat!, but from your perspective you are still young!
Another consequence of relativity is length contraction, if you were from a far of galaxy travelling to earth, as you travel towards us moving faster and faster near the speed of light you will notice that objects around you will be compressed along the direction of your travel, and as you approach the speed of light, this effect is increasingly pronounced, and at the speed of light itself, objects will have zero length in the direction you are travelling.
Would you then be there before you arrive Andrew, if there is zero length in the direction you are travelling?
Or is that a lightweight stupid question? 🙂
No their are no stupid questions only stupid answers.
To arrive “before” you left would involve time travel and that’s impossible.
Remember this is how you would view distance travailing near to or at the speed of light.
Everything has its own “coordinate frame”. that is your coordinate frame is how you define relativity, in time, distance, velocity, and this is only relative to the observer and the observed. Actual distance isn’t zero it can’t be, you just experience it as zero, time won’t perceptively slow, your watch will still tell the same time, but relative to you time stops.
Andrew McLean
What distinguishes a persons percieved forward momentum of time from one very long continuous moment?
Hey Rev
Don’t really get why you keep having digs at Rangers on your Scottish Independance and Scottish Politics Site, you do realise that their nickname Gers is different from GERS.
There are plenty of football forums for that !!!
Kenny G
I think I know what you are asking, if I am correct in my assumption it’s the perception from the observer traveling at the speed of light, ithen the photon observes a flat universe, however just remember that what we intrinsically feel is an allusion, just as we have to assume that the cat is both dead and alive as fundamentally it is in both states simultainisley! I think that’s what you are asking, but don’t ask me what a photon is , it may be both a string or a quantum or what?
An “interesting ” article from the Rev.linking sport commercial taxation and tax credits .
I seem to recall during the Murray years at Rangers, that they and Celtic were able to compete on
a fairly level playing field with the top teams in England and Europe for that matter.If fact I seem to
recall Rangers “signing” half the England football team with transfer fees running to tens of millions ( with appropriate salaries no doubt).undoubtedly EBT ‘s were utilised as regards this commercial activity.I do recall these to be “controversial ” at that particular time, however I also recall that a
number of top English and European clubs were apparently using similar schemes .This obviously posed a a “COMPETITION” issue?
If football “businesses” were minimising tax liabilities using these methods, to COMPETE for the
“best players ( employees) on a UK and EUROPEAN basis why to date is it only a “Scottish based”
business that has been pursued over this by HMRC?If they had not been “competitive” in “commercial terms” with other UK and European “football businesses” then quite obviously they
would have been unable to “employ” the “best people” for the business?
Is this any different from other business sectors?
Notwithstanding, the media exposure at that particular time for David Murray was enormous
and these high profile transfers were regularly headline news on BBC/ITV/Sky NETWORKS UK WIDE .
I believe that this activity by an apparent “Diddy league” Scottish based club “stealing” top England internationals would have possibly “irked” the football establishment ( and their political cronies) “darn souf”.( the audacity of it) .
Moving on somewhat, over the years SKY television and now BT and other major sponsors have year on year “bankrolled ” the top English clubs to the tune of tens of millions of pounds
.These English based FOOTBALL BUSINESSES can now “EMPLOY” the best people
in EUROPE due to this mammoth subsidy to allow them to “COMPETE” and
“EARN REVENUE “in “elite” competitions such as the ” champions league” .Meanwhile our top
Scottish ” football businesses” ( ie. Celtic & Rangers ) can no longer compete say on
a “European basis” due to this “subsidy” Why has the Scottish football authorities and their legal advisors not taken this unfair competition up with the European Union / parliamentary
authorities?
Returning to the pursuit of Rangers by HMRC , why is it that only
a “Scottish based” football business has been targeted .Is it due to the separate Scottish legal system whereby judgements laid down in a Scottish court would not
be binding in England ?
Why has the treasury/HMRC not taken legal action against any of these top football businesses
based in England, who according to press reports “at that time” apparently were also using similar methods to minimise tax liabilities?
Finally as regards “sporting integrity” (don’t make me laugh),when are the other football businesses
( out with Scotland) going to be ” stripped of their European cups and domestic titles” for having apparently “cheated the taxman” notwithstanding other businesses /corporations/ multinationals/
non doms /super rich and just about “everyone else & their granny” fiddling tax returns and expenses ( including apparently MP’s at Westminster.
to minimise taxation?
The “Empire of Dr.Schrodinger ” from a “European perspective”
We do want to stay part of Europe do we ??