A cautionary tale
So today we read this:
And it was good.
We don’t recommend buying “Project Fear” if you have a weak jaw, because you’re going to spend a lot of time banging it off your desk. From the opening pages it delivers stunning quotes like machine-gun bullets and it never lets up. (Readers who aren’t IDIOTS and therefore do follow our Twitter account have already enjoyed a small selection this afternoon.)
We must confess we hadn’t heard of Joe Pike before the advance publicity for this book started up a few weeks ago. A Holyrood reporter for ITV Borders, and also married to MND-stricken “Better Together” campaigner Gordon Aikman, he interviewed dozens of No activists and mainly-Labour insiders – mostly anonymously – to put together a mindboggling account of the battle to save the Union.
(While the book is almost entirely straight reportage with no analysis, we suspect he had their confidence because he was seen as a friendly No and Labour ally. We may be doing him a grave disservice, but there are tiny flashes of phrasing and comment throughout that to our suspicious cybernat eyes reveal the author’s own affiliations.)
Their revelations paint a picture of incompetence, factionalism, waste, crisis and blind panic on a galactic scale. Any independence supporter reading the book will be in absolute heaven for the 3-4 hours it takes to speed through its 320 pages – partly because rather than ending on the gloomy note of last year’s shattering defeat it’s split roughly half-and-half between the referendum campaign and the subsequent general election.
In fact, the book is as much a chronicle of the spectacular implosion of Scottish Labour as it is of “Better Together”. Most of the latter’s tale is told through Labour eyes – inevitably, as Labour supplied most of the ground troops for the campaign while the Tories came up (eventually) with the money and the Lib Dems provided, er, Alistair Carmichael.
What we see through those eyes is that Scottish Labour is (or was) every bit as shambolic and ruined as the SNP would ever have dared to suspect, and then a whole lot more besides. If Nicola Sturgeon hasn’t ordered a vanload of copies of “Project Fear” as Christmas presents for every single person at SNP HQ, she’s mad – one read will keep the entire party on a schadenfreude high until 2021 at least.
Blair McDougall, a time-served Labour apparatchik, comes out of the book especially badly, though only slightly worse than communications director Rob Shorthouse and BT’s head of grassroots Rob Murray, a “token Tory” whose entire contribution in two years is dismissed in three paragraphs, including the phrases “fundamentally useless” and “a Boy Scout who got a job way above his station”.
McDougall is at the centre of several comic scenes verging on slapstick, largely focusing on his apparent inability to get out of bed before 10am or organise the proverbial convivial evening in a brewery (or as the book rather more bluntly puts it, “administratively he’s a fucking disaster”). We last see him bawling his eyes out in the Scottish Labour offices on election night, and while the book credits him as a “creative thinker” let’s just say we’d be surprised if he cites it in his CV.
There’s also plenty on Wings favourite John McTernan, including this startling snippet that we’re not sure we’ll ever be able to erase from our minds:
But while SNP and Yes voters will be delirious with glee pretty much from cover to cover, “Project Fear” is also a warning. Because if and when a second referendum comes round, it’s simply impossible to imagine that the No campaign could possibly be run so stupendously badly again.
And given that “Better Together” actually won – albeit by turning a 30-point lead into a 10-point one – that ought to be a sobering message for any independence supporter keen to rush into a replay. Many of the inescapable weaknesses that damaged the No campaign last year will still remain, but it surely won’t be in the hands of such a bunch of clowns again.
(The other thing revealed in “Project Fear”, however, is just how complicit, both passively and actively, the print media was in the Unionist campaign – particularly the Daily Record, which is painted in several passages as a major player, albeit one too afraid of losing sales to commit in public to taking a side.)
This, then, is an unmissable book for all Yes types, both for instant gratification and the provision of important food for thought. It shows what the No camp (and also by deduction its counterpart) got right and what it got wrong, and which mistakes it can’t be relied on to make next time, because – if we’re to hold out any hope for humanity at all – nobody’s THAT dumb.
It’s excellently written, lean and pacy and punchy (in a way that strongly reminded us a lot of another very good book we read recently, Michael Grant’s “Fergie Rises”). For numerous reasons, we recommend it unreservedly.
.
“Project Fear” is available now.
Fats McDougall, the man who only recently claimed to have ‘saved the Union.’ Will read book this weekend.
My satire comparing him with Da Mob was spot on:
link to wp.me
As I said. Powers of persuasion. That’s an excellent review and I’m off to amazon as we speak.
So what you’re saying is we were beaten by a bunch of numpties?
Like yourself, I don’t think that IndyRef II will be a cakewalk – we (YES) might have learned our lessons but we can be damned sure that BT will have learned theirs too.
Now, when do we begin? :o)
One thing that will be different from the last referendum is, like myself and many other yes voters, we were not really engaged with the internet, ie voting yes no matter what.
The next referendum, we will be more than ready for the fight.
Bring it on.
This book will make a good door wedge.
O/T Any readers up in the Sneck, buy the National from the big CO OP.
Every day you have to find it buried under other newspapers.
It Pisses them off.
Daughter in Canada was just asking me what I wished for birthday prezzie on 28th Sep. Job done. Thanks Stu.
Sounds like it was the Telly, and not the Belly wot, won it.
Wow! That was fast, Stu. You’ve been busy. Well done.
link to indiegogo.com
A wee boost for Livestream.
Bought and downloaded onto Kindle app, know what I’ll be reading tonight, thanks for the heads up, Rev. 🙂
Way to look at the next indyref if and when, the country has only to say Yes once they need the naesayers to keep saying No and the more austerity bites and the more corruption and incompetence is shown in westminster each day the closer that becomes.
Once in a generation because they know they wont win again thats why they wanted it said after the last one.
“Many of the inescapable weaknesses that damaged the No campaign last year will still remain, but it surely won’t be in the hands of such a bunch of clowns again.”
The three unionist parties don’t have anyone left in Scotland with the credibility to lead the unionist campaign.
Pravda GB will have no choice but to openly lead it.
Itchybiscuit, the numpties did not win the Propaganda people did. So we can thank the BBC and the papers for all their lying and bad mouthing. The sad thing is if those who voted no, well at least a percentage, had read the internet, we would have got a damned sight closer.
All that’s missing is a quote on the back from Revstu – sorta like
you will read this, realise that you are staring into the eye of Satan’s butt hole and think – how the f**k did we lose to these ass hats? – WingsoverScotland
Rev
I read open mouthed all the quotes and snippets you posted on twitter and expected a totally different article.
I can see how though there was just to much to reveal and/or ridicule and we should read it for ourselves. Must order one, seems too good to miss.
Re the Daily Record, and BBC Jockland.
Is it just a coincidence that so many NornIrn Unionists are involved with said outfits?
They were being observed though.
Paid for by a very rich City spiv from Greenock, cost a fortune but blanket all day BBC publicity all for free. Theses spivs clearly saw MacDougal floundering, forked out loads of money, made the calls to the beeb.
link to votenoborders.co.uk
Posted this on Newsnet earlier think it might fit here.
Like many other fair minded people I began to doubt my own fairness and objectivity during and up to the final days of the September 18/09/14 Scottish Independence Referendum. Could it really be that over 95% of the MSM and particularly the BBC were anti Scottish Independence and anti SNP ? After all we are talking about hundreds of highly educated and knowledgeable people here employed by the MSM and the BBC. THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOOD PLACE FOR A PARAGRAPH BREAK. People who probably joined the profession because of a desire to tell the public the truth, well at least a high percentage of them probably did. Perhaps I was being paranoid simply because I firmly believe that Scotland is well able and would be far better off running it’s own affairs and looking after it’s own people and anyone who said otherwise must be wrong or convince me with a better argument. THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOOD PLACE FOR A PARAGRAPH BREAK. However recently I was watching or listening to one of these “What the Papers say programmes” and one of the contributors, who was a reporter or correspondent for one of the big Southern British newspapers, caught my attention with remarks he was making about Jeremy Corbyn. In summary he was saying Jeremy should be concentrating on telling the people about how less than 5% of the UK population now own Trillions of Pounds, more than 95% of the total UK wealth and this is destroying and depreciating what used to be the middle class and setting the UK back to a Victorian style world of absolute wealth for less than 5% of the population and austerity and poverty for the rest. THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOOD PLACE FOR A PARAGRAPH BREAK. Then I thought, you, the reporter, are supposed to be an investigative journalist telling the people the truth, so why are you not doing it in articles for your newspaper. THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOOD PLACE FOR A PARAGRAPH BREAK. Which brought me back to the Scottish Referendum because the same MSM and BBC who were over 95% anti Independence and anti SNP are now currently anti Corbyn. Why then would hundreds of highly educated and knowledgeable people not have different views and opinions, why does it seem to be such a well-co-ordinated attack on anything that may threaten The Establishment. THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOOD PLACE FOR A PARAGRAPH BREAK. This can be backed up by recent comments from The Establishment, including I believe UK Government ministers, regarding Jeremy Corbyn being a threat to our National Security. Perhaps the answer is – if less than 5% control the wealth, power and influence they also control 95% of the output from the MSM and BBC and the jobs of those hundreds of highly educated and knowledgeable people who are currently part of the middle class. Maybe I was not so paranoid after all.
It just goes to show, no matter how low your sides average IQ is, or how many incompetent buffoons you have in your team, if you have the British State and 99.9% of the media on your side, you can achieve anything.
Unionists bleat that the referendum was a “divisive affair” and that it split Scotland.
At the Clutha on Saturday we were talking to a random passer by who, for me, hit the nail right on the head. He said that he used to be a part of a lot of the football related violence in Scotland and coming to Glasgow from his home town had been not far short of an act of war. He went on to say that during the referendum a lot of old enemies had become good friends and he was more likely to go for a pint with his opposite faction than to get into any fights. He felt that the referendum had been a great force for peace. No prizes for guessing which way he ended up voting.
When the unionists say that the referendum was divisive, they are speaking from their own perspective in the NO camp where I have no doubt that the whole event was in fact incredibly divisive. The Labour party has imploded, the Lib Dems have vanished from the visible spectrum and the Tories are ripping out each other’s throats as the leadership struggles to whip the party. Practically the only coalesced party in UK politics appears to be the SNP.
For us YES campaigners; the referendum brought us close together into a very inclusive, family like environment and probably improved the quality of our lives simply by being a part of the collective national effort. Walking down the street or driving in my car; every time I clock another YES supporter is always a lovely wee boost in my day. YES will continue to grow in strength and numbers as it is actually a mostly pleasurable experience to be a part of the movement and once someone understands what it’s all about it is very rare for them to decide they don’t want to be a part of it.
I look forward to reading “Project Fear”.
Thanks for the review Rev and the tweets.
As others on the thread have pointed out, another NO campaign won’t have fifty odd Scottish Unionist MPs to call on for help and support in an IndyRef2. The UKGE2015 has dealt organised political Unionism inside Scotland a massive blow for the time being. Whatever shape another NO campaign it’ll be even more of an astroturfing campaign the the first omnishambles.
Just bought and downloaded the said exposé about the `no campaign.
Interestingly I see that Backbite also is the publishere for the Ashcroft starter culture detruction of Cameron.
Will wit to see what ~Stu says about that.
At least we have tomorrow’s next weird sexual revelations, probably incorporating laser recreations of Margaret Thatcher and a spit roaster with George and Dave.
Que sera
Funnily enough, I was just thinking the same thing about the chances that they’ll put out a better team next time around. Last time, they were over-confident about victory and thought they had it in the bag, so they let that shower of incompetents run the show. Next time, they’ll know as well as we so which way the tides have been moving, so they’ll probably try to put a bit more effort into it – assuming that they’re capable of it.
Thanks for the review. Will order the book now.
They key thing is that the official Yes campaign was a shambles as well. Yes-Blair wasn’t any better that Blair Together. The Yes campaign’s failings were different e.g. bad press-management and weak PR statements. So there is hope for next time, maybe we can improve as well.
Daily Record outed publicly not just moaned about by us
( Names? )How can their “journalistic opinion” ever be sought again by BBC or STV given their now published collusion with the NO side laid bare for all to see
I’ll be astonished if they are invited to take part as impartial commentators again and all who sail in them
Outraged of Tunbridge Wells
[…] A cautionary tale […]
“In politics stupidity is not a handicap”.
Napoleon Bonaparte
nodrog – Expect HAMMERS! 😉
green_pedant at 7.39
I continue to get seriously pissed off by those who don’t seem able to grasp the irrefutable fact that the YES side faced a 100% hostile press and media and it wouldn’t have mattered who or what or what standard their effort was it was getting blocked continuously.
In the circumstances the fact that we nearly succeeded against huge odds speaks volumes of the endless hours many spent getting as much of our message out as they did.
If, as I suspect, the No campaign was a load of undo-ordinate bollox led by a modern day recumbant Roman Emperor, and not the slick media savvy jammy dodgers we all thought, why did we not eviscerate this lot?
Worthy of a few Doctoral theses perhaps rather more exposed on our YES useless campaign?
Culprits were not the grass roots foot soldiers but the Hope Street boys in suits, IMHO.
Anyway a friend of mine,from the USA, had a meeting with them and came away with the famouus quotation, ” Nice people but no game plan”
This person was both from an Academic with a semi Military background.
My conclusion, made several days after the Ref is that they won because of the 24/7 Inky fingered press and the BBC.
We never got to grips with them and we had no clue how to do so.
I will be prersuaded or dissuaded of that after I have read the book, maybe.
Hindsight is the only real 20/20 vision, but …
‘Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
Attrib to Georges Santayana
That one’s on the list.
But I’m not so sure they will learn that much into the short and medium term. Who have they got left in their Scottish branch offices to lead their IndyRef II offensive?
Kezia and the Baillie? Murray … ? And a shower of be-Knighted 2nd rate Proud-butts? I can sense you quaking at the thought. Ok, not.
We’re about to watch Lab UK inc collapse in on itself. I hope Corbyn does win through, genuinely, but it’s going to involve blood whether he does or doesn’t. And where the Scottish lead in whatever comes emerges from I really don’t know.
I struggle to see Labour/SLab capable of leading a UK joint IndyRef II defence any time soon – and there’s plenty of noise from Pa Broon and the likes that they won’t want to lead anyway. If there isn’t a BT-style joint campaign, then we have them divided and can use that against them.
Whilst I agree that IndyRef II now would be a bad idea, on the other hand we don’t want to let the date to be much more than 5yrs out. As the longer we leave it, the more time Lab have to sort themselves out and to possibly generate a leading figure we might have to worry about.
I totally agree that there was 100% media bias but that doesn’t mean more couldn’t have been done to get round it. Obviously you can only do so much with that level of bias but but some messages could have been clearer and less “don’t scare the horses”.
Just ordered a copy.
Hope you are getting a commission Stu!
One of those books which are genuinely unputdownable.
What the NO side had was Alistair Darling, the man who can tell lie after lie, and still does: “Alistair Darling: even Nicola Sturgeon is saying No Thanks to a second referendum”
I seriously think he believes his own lies.
Need epub version soonest. Easier to hide from my No voting wife.
Just goes to show how much the media did the no campaign’s job for them. There’s no way the incompetent Project Fear would have won without the BBC and Daily Record scaring the living daylights out the Scottish electorate on McDougall’s behalf.
Bugger (the Panda) at 7.58
I assume from your assessment that you’ve got the answer of how we should have dealt with it and you’re going to explain it to us.
It sounds a good read, but it only makes you wonder how Yes lost to that clown car disaster.
link to you.38degrees.org.uk
“No camp … which mistakes it can’t be relied on to make next time”
Good review. I will read the book!
Part of BT’s state must have been because when they began they almost certainly believed the couldn’t lose. They probably believed it was going to be easy. Next time, roles will be reversed an will be BT2 who begin from a position of having less that 50% backing. They will try harder!
They will ensure their BBC is still in a position to do their bidding. Well, you’d expect them to keep their No 1 asset ready and able. Wouldn’t it be funny, though, if the Tories damage the BBC before IndyRef2? It’s the kind of own goal they are capable of.
BT2 is going to have difficulty with leading personalities. Tory and Liberal politicians will be toxic, and Labour not much better. It’s hard to envisage who they have to front their campaign now.
Also, BT2 has fired off much of its ammo on IndyRef1. The scaremongering would seem so scary and offers of Devo Super Duper will be greeted with disbelief by both Yes and No voters!
BT2 will be better prepared, organised and focused, but will also be in a much weaker position.
Heard quite a few people say that the official Yes camp was run so badly that it was most likely infiltrated and manipulated by the opposition. This seems plausible, especially considering that the Yes campaign would be taken as a “threat” to the state, so no holding back from BT or the government.
Couldn’t understand why Kezia kept McDougall on but am so glad she did.
The Scotland Act is currently due to be passed for Royal Assent Feb 2016 to be part of May’s manifesto. Then Holyrood elections in May 2016. Then a possible rejection of the Scotland Act by Holyrood, potentiual Constitutional crisis. Then, after Westminster turns down requests to bring back the Scotland Act for rework and more powers, late 2016 Holyrood requests Westminster for Ref 2.
In 2017 after much wrangling (and possible threats of court actions), Westminster agrees and prepares a new S30 order, Holyrood a new Ref bill, the EC evaluates the question, and Indy Ref 2 is in 2018. Perhaps May 2018 if nothing else on.
YES vote May 2018, leaves nearly 3 years for negotiations and setting up of bodies for iScotland, Independence Day March 2021, dissolution of Holyrood, and election of 1st Indy Parliament in May 2021.
I can’t wait.
@green_pedant 7:39
It depends what you describe as the “Yes Campaign”. I’ll agree with you with regard to the leadership of the campaign in the guise of Blair Jenkins.
Two reasons, I met him and listened to him at a public meeting, also observed him in various TV interviews.
Admittedly I warmed to him a little as the vote got closer, but overall a thumbs down. He had no passion, not like the people I was meeting. People like us here on Wings.
My biggest gripe though with the “offical” Yes Campaign was when they completely overhauled their website and made it totally UNREADABLE! What was that all about.
Seriously, I was concerned as this was just before the referendum when Janet and John were just starting to look for information. Believe me they would have left after 10 seconds.
The website was sabotaged in my view by an insider. Bet it doesn’t tell you that in the book Project Fear.
O/T
Tomorrows National front page
link to twitter.com
Sorry Marcia-couldn’t resist it 🙂
Yeah, Pike was on Scotland Tonight last week and from what he described the No Bunker sounded like some kind of crazy sitcom.
Now there’s an idea. ‘Don’t tell them Pike’.
NN says:
“makes you wonder how Yes lost to that clown car disaster.”
The BBC and the MSM had their act together and were very influential.
The Achilles Heel for Yes was that two thirds of Scots would have settled, one way or another, for genuine DevoMax. When BT sounds (with media help) as if they were putting it on the table, that swung it …. I am absolutely certain.
Grassroots Yes we’re absolutely amazing.
Official Yes didn’t exactly set the heather on fire! Did they actually achieve much? Possibly not!
Even the SNP seemed to not exactly be on the crest of the wave. There were times when it seemed they were being dragged along behind the grassroots activists!
Ordinary folks almost won it last time. I include of course WoS foot soldiers. Next time it will be ordinary folks who take us forward to win.
Without a complicit and suitably helpful media they were screwed. With one? They blew a sizable lead. ‘Course the fact that HMG drove a coach and four through their ‘hands off’ promise helped. Their lobbying of overseas aid, big business and the help of those ever present civil service minions came in handy. I hope it cost the government dearly in threats and favours.
Ever and always though, it seems to come back to the media. Without that big treacherous soap box, they would’ve struggled badly.
Rev’s nailed though IMO. I doubt they’ll make the same errors on take two. Certainly we can’t count on them being such a clusterfudge twice in a row. More than ever we need our own media well funded and advertised. Social media, internet, word of mouth, hill top beacons. We get a story, or our own fav sources debunk one, we move it outward and onward big time.
The one day I spent observing the Yes campaign’s Embra headquarters shook my confidence about winning the Referendum.
@yesindyref2 @ 8:59
Yes, a scenario which seems more and more likely.
However, I would expect the time from crisis to vote to be months, rather than over a year. I think there will be a snap indyref when the time is right with short campaigning.
Indyref2 will probably avoid EUref. In an idea world (from our perspective) the constitutional crisis will be in full swing when there is an EU Scotland in/England out result. Then indyref2 will revolve around both devolution and the EU.
A double crisis would be better than a single one:)
Aye, but do not forget that “project fear Mk1 “, was way back in 1704/5 with England’s Westminster passing the “Alien Act “.
‘Oops!- I Mean British’
Whilst on EBC Radio Wales, Kezia stated that Wales and Scotland “Are smaller than other parts of England”.
One more for the list: wp.me/p4fd9j-iY
@annie
Couldn’t understand why Kezia kept McDougall on but am so glad she did.
annie, didn’t know she had, any link for that? If so, I’ll share a dram tonight 🙂
Nodrog
DEAD MAN WALKING! 🙂
It’s an unpalateable truth, and speaking as a committed supporter of Independence, there was, and is, something missing our campaign that our objective to be a Nation could have been confounded by a hostile media. What does it say about our integrity as a Nation that a hostile media is afforded the status that it was / is?
I don’t think we lost because of Better Together or the BBC, I think we were all niaive and ill prepared to actually become a Nation. Do you think the French or the Germans could be persuaded to forfeit their sovereignty by a media campaign? Lose their status as Nations and blame the newspapers? Unthinkable isn’t it? But here in Scotland, a big section of our society can be talked out of national sovereignty, and worse, be fully aware it was happening.
Take heart, because I think we will be Independendent eventually, but we will get there all the faster when we learn how to deal with our low self esteem and subservient tendencies. A growing number of us are stepping into the light, and it’s a nice feeling, but we need to be patient with those who need more time to feel ready for Nationhood.
When we are ready to be a Nation, and I mean really ready, no vote, no referendum, no media campaign or external manipulation will have the power to stop us. We have a way to go yet, but an Independent Scotland is a work in progress.
@galamcennalath
It could work faster, depends on how much time Holyrood would feel has to elapse to give Westminster the chance to repair the Scotland Act. And then the negotiations between perhaps Swinney and Mundell for Edinburgh Agreement 2. Mundell, ugh, Moore was a decent guy.
Yes, the S30 order could co through quite quickly, as long as it could get through the UK Parliament before the UK in/out Ref occupied all the time. In which case Indy Ref 2 at end 2017 maybe, perhaps November. St Andrews Day 2017 is on a Thursday by a curious portentious co-incidence, and a local holiday apparently.
My experience with Dundee RIC was of a very well run and organised campaign.
My one interaction with Dundee Yes Campaign was when I volunteered to help the get the vote out project first thing on the 18th. They sent a whole car load of us to a leafy suburb with long gravel drives with three cars at the end.
Meanwhile the service buttons on the Multis, tenements etc were working up until 12noon. I bet the Yes people did not bother with RIC’s data from those places. I don’t think we got all our vote out from the schemes.
My take is that anyone involved in the official Yes campaign last time, shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near the next campaign.
The official Yes campaign was badly set up from the beginning. I went to a few events that had Alex Salmond talking about his new book. During these talks he had a go at the BBC for being so biased. When I heard this I thought how could anyone seriously believe they would get a fair hearing from the BBC. Then I realised what it meant, B. Jenkin’s appointment was mainly due to his contacts with the BBC. The bias from the BBC voided any usefullness he had.
So how could the Yes campaign get rid of someone without looking like they were panicking? They couldn’t, so they were left with someone on a high salary, who couldn’t fulfil the role he was employed to do. As I said earlier the mistakes were made early in the campaign and there was no easy way to rectify them.
Kezia’s howler – One more for the list: link to grousebeater.wordpress.com
(Hope that works)
Well if u think Cameron having sex with a pig was good, Osbornes been flying pigs in China
Torys are guaranteeing loans for a communist-government run Chinese state company to build a nuclear power station in (supposedly) England
Apparently the huge long term subsidies per kilowatt hour produced by this station were not sufficient for the communists to come in and build the nuclear power station.
Of course these subsidies vastly exeed those available to any form of renewable energy – that could be delivered in a fraction of the time compared to nuclear.
And the Torys are not guaranteeing billions of loans for renewable energy companies in Scotland.
Maybe Nicola should ask a Chinese communist state company to deliver renewable energy – or join the communist party – then Osborne would be fawning all over her and her new energy partner
Apparently 26 billion in subsidies to fossil fuels so far this year – trying to source that one
Didn’t take Yew Choob long 🙂
Piggies
link to youtube.com
Thing is Rev, I agree about the No camp. They couldn’t possibly be as bad as they were in the first referendum, but ….then again …it may depend on the circumstances that are happening in politics and the world at that time. It is possible that every able politician will steer clear, because if it goes wrong…well Blair, Lamont and a few others are classic examples of a career entering oblivion. It is possible …just possible ….that they could be even worse …and even more hilarious!! Who knows? LOL
Thing is Rev, I agree about the No camp. They couldn’t possibly be as bad as they were in the first referendum, but ….then again …it may depend on the circumstances that are happening in politics and the world at that time. It is possible that every able politician will steer clear, because if it goes wrong…well Blair, Lamont and a few others are classic examples of a career entering oblivion. It is possible …just possible ….that they could be even worse …and even more hilarious!! Who knows? LOL
Thing is Rev, I agree about the No camp. They couldn’t possibly be as bad as they were in the first referendum, but ….then again …it may depend on the circumstances that are happening in politics and the world at that time. It is possible that every able politician will steer clear, because if it goes wrong…well Blair, Lamont and a few others are classic examples of a career entering oblivion. It is possible …just possible ….that they could be even worse …and even more hilarious!! Who knows? LOL
Thing is Rev, I agree about the No camp. They couldn’t possibly be as bad as they were in the first referendum, but ….then again …it may depend on the circumstances that are happening in politics and the world at that time. It is possible that every able politician will steer clear, because if it goes wrong…well Blair, Lamont and a few others are classic examples of a career entering oblivion. It is possible …just possible ….that they could be even worse …and even more hilarious!! Who knows? LOL
@Cadogan Enright
You might find what you are looking for here.
link to no2nuclearpower.org.uk
Sorry Stu I do not often write anything that long so I forgot about the breaks.
@Dave McEwan Hill says: 21 September, 2015 at 7:57 pm:
“In the circumstances the fact that we nearly succeeded against huge odds speaks volumes of the endless hours many spent getting as much of our message out as they did.”
Perhaps so, Dave, but when the campaign was over the loss of the referendum triggered a lot of unforeseen events.
Who would have foreseen that the next election was to see the almost total wipe out of the Unionist parties in Scotland and I’m almost certain that, even if they have not yet owned up to the facts, a lot of the MSM and broadcasters have taken a severe hit in their circulation and probably an even bigger hit on their credibility?
Only the most loyal Unionists still believe the media are right and telling the truth to the public. Most unionists still read, listen and view but now know they are listening to utter balderdash. As such it is not too big a step to allow the truth to begin to erode their, often fierce, loyalties to their parties, their Union and the crown.
Interesting positioning of that flag behind Osborne in China. Assuming it to be a UJ, but only visible part a red cross on white background. Presumably that’s the way it’s going to be. Better Together.
Can anybody see Labour toadying with Tories for a second Referendum?
It is clear we are now in a fluid situation with events outwith our control taking place.
Talk of timing for the next indyref seems crazy. Should it be 2020? Later maybe? Wow.
I see plans within plans. We know not what further revelations are coming out in the next few days on Cameron but if Cameron is forced to resign (which seems a possibility) and the Conservatives are in the process of a right wing coup to to replace euro-wishy-washy Cameron with Boris or Osborne at a convenient time when labour are in disarray… talk of 5 years down the track seems blind to events.
We are beginning to see pieces being lined up although the gambit is not clear. Ashcroft is no fool- he doesn’t need to make money from selling a book and I doubt he is consumed by some petty revenge motivation. This is a political hit.
Boris dislikes Scotland event more than Thatcher did. Osborne made his feelings known during the ref. He only comes up here to check the oil is still pumping, to inspect his nuclear arsenal or threaten to destroy our economy.
If we are looking for ‘a material change’ look no further than having a prime minister who actively despises Scotland.
I will read the book at some point but we all know it was the media and BBC that won the referendum. BT wrote the press releases but it was Jackie Bird and co that delivered the message. With the media setting the agenda on BT’s behalf Yes was embarked in an almost impossible mission.
Yes, a less intense barrage took place pre general election but 45% loses a referendum whilst 50% is a landslike at a general election.
Most of the campaign was spent with the media pounding the electorate with fear. The vow was a bag of pish and we all knew it. Some weak minded folk maybe felt guilty for voting no and needed an excuse which the vow provided. Most No voters simply wished the question had never been asked and everything would just go back to normal.
The circumstances of the next referendum may be very different from the last one and I suspect the campaign could hardly be longer.
We are prepared in some ways (numbers of activists and social media presence being 2 examples) and unprepared in other ways. We need to discuss not just how to win the next referendum but more fundamentally what we want the emerging Scotland to look like.
Do we need another ‘Scotland’s Future’ policy document or would we be better with developing a written constitution as the central proposition (my preference). Or have neither.
Do we go down the route of using Sterling regardless or create a new currency.
How do we organise the central Yes organisation next time round so it reflects the views of the grassroots, and improves on key failings (such as the billboard campaign).
Ian Brotherhood mentioned a congress to thash out these ideas and I think that is a great idea. I would go further and suggest that a congress with delegates from all the yes groups, the 3/4 political parties, and voices from all key demographics. One rule: egos left at the door.
I would also suggest that Wings is the greatest forum for developing these ideas but we need some way of reaching an end product instead of arguements simply fading into the distance like the Star Wars title sequence.
The SNP can’t have a public discussion on these matters right now. The victory will stem from these pages and other forums, from concensus reached across the national movement and its time we stopped worrying about the enemy and start looking to our own game.
The Lib.Dems and their grinning/ whining Scottish Leader Willie Rennie goes OTT and questions the SNP while the calamitous deal on the New nuclear power station to be built at Hinkley Point brokered by Lib Dem Ed Davey will probably impoverish us all.
Wee Willie Rennie and the Lib Dems would sell their soul for a vote. They undermine the reputation of our public services unfairly .
@Tam Jardine
Written Constitution would be my preference too, with full input from the public. A People’s Constitution, not a political party one.
It must seem bizarre that a group of half-baked misfits, stuck in a small airless office trying to reach the coffee machine by sliding past McDougall, can bring a nation to its knees in fear and uncertainty, but they had the active backing of all newspapers, columnists, commercial channels, and the bloody BBC.
They hardly needed to get out of bed.
A once-a-week press release and Darling wheeled out for interview was sufficient.
Slightly O/t. Regarding BBC bias. Kelvin McKenzie columnist for the Sun appeared on Daily Politics show. Referred to NS as ” that lady who runs Jockistan”. No interruption or correction from presenter Jo Coburn.
salmond said, let us not wake up on the 19th thinking about what might have been
after the ref, 1000;s joined the snp/sg/solidarity etc. when I asked them why, this was exactly the reason may gave
we had far more snp activists in may than we had yes activists during the referendum.
indyref2 will be a grass roots campaign which will dwarf indyref1
I disagree about the official yes campaign, they lost control of the yes campaign early on. indeed, if it is organized from the top down by definition it isn’t grass roots
that’s why wos is so important and not just the revs articles but btl too.
eg the 10000 flags was organized and crowd funded by wingers from btl
A similar book on the official Yes campaign would be instructive. They didn’t exactly come across as the most competent or harmonious bunch, to put it mildly. The database…the website… I could continue.
The one thing they got right was when they realised that ‘losing control’ of the campaign was an advantage, and leaving it to the grassroots to get on with it was the best solution. After those tedious ‘newspapers’ and several equally tedious leaflets, they eventually concentrated on the stickers, etc that helped so much in dominating the ground (though even the 10,000 saltires had to be crowd-funded). Even so, our long-promised P.A system arrived 2 days after the referendum.
@Tam Jardine “The SNP can’t have a public discussion on these matters right now. The victory will stem from these pages and other forums, from concensus reached across the national movement and its time we stopped worrying about the enemy and start looking to our own game.”
Indeed, and that could satisfy “the people of Scotland will decide when the next referendum will happen”.
I daresay the SNP have their own counsel about what “triggers” will happen and what is the most likely, but forwarned is forearmed and the last thing they can do is discuss it publicly. Doesn’t stop us from guessing though.
It’s a personal choice. But when posts are too long,I tend to skim read. Then I often just read the first and last paragraph and move on.
My eyes glaze over after a while.
Wake up at the back!
Schrodinger: If organized from the top down by definition it isn’t grass roots
That was its weakness. It was micro-managed from the dour, unimaginative top. And they confused the public – were they SNP, everybody, or a free-wheeling group? The enemy made the most of that confusion.
Anyhow, next time around we have to be well-prepared to fight the media head on. We have to think of ways to reach the public direct that carries authenticity and weight.
link to grousebeater.wordpress.com
Thanks, Rev, i’ve been contemplating buying that book but have not been able to find a convincing review. That’ll do nicely!
Kezia on Scotland Tonight:” What happened last year is in the past”. Oh you wish Kezia. Your lies and deceit are not forgotten by the people. That’s why you have one Mp.
Big Jock
A sensible approach. I glaze over myself writing them at times
Tam Jardine @ 10:12pm
With you 100%. I suggested we needed a ‘business plan’ to sell Scotland’s ‘modernisation’ to a predominantly conservative public. I can’t think of a better substitute than a draft outline of Scotland’s ‘new social contract’.
O/T I read an article the other day relating to a donation of £150,000 by Fiona Hyslop MSP to a company DF Contracts who run a successful and profitable company (assets in region of £5million) and organize T in The Park. Apparently the money was to assist in the relocation of the festival
After doing some online checking i am deeply concerned that a Scottish minister is GIVING £150,000 of our money to a profitable company who should be responsible for their own expenditure.
I would have thought that the £150,000 could have been put to better use, maybe even helping poor Scottish families to feed, clothe,or even keep a roof over their head.
I am disgusted at this money being given away, and the persons involved and manner in which this gift came about to me is rather questionable.
I have been a SNP voter for many years and myself and my family are avid independence supporters, but i am increasingly finding myself at odds with some of their proposals
Eg their liberal immigration policy, i am more concerned in protecting the employment prospects of our own youhg Scots and the availability and affordability of housing for them,we are constantly told that our infrastructure and services are almost at breaking point due to austerity imposed on us,unrestricted immigration will only add to our problems and create division and resentment.
Their insistence on EU membership, even when their own MEP knows that TTIP and ISDS are being forced through irrespective of the detrimental impact this will have on Scottish employment and conditions and environmental protection.
The EU is currently proving to be unsustainable and fractured with the eastern block countries being overwhelmed and feeling abandoned, whilst the super leader countries demand that all EU countries take allocated numbers irrespective of their citizens views, that is not democracy.
I have great sympathy with most of the refugees but the vast majority appear to be young fit males which will in my opinion create massive problems for their adopted country. I for one do not want these problems in Scotland.
Something has to be done, but relocating a continent is not sustainable.
I want independence,an independent Scotland,independent from Westminster and the UK but not replaced by servitude to the German federation
Christ on a moped, how thick is Dugdale? She hopes the constitutional debate is firmly in the past and that there won’t be another referendum in her lifetime, but hey – if you voted Yes come and join Labour where you can debate independence!
Big Jock: Kezia on Scotland Tonight:” What happened last year is in the past”.
As opposed to the future, or the fridge, or the doldrums?
One year on and one year to reflect on things.
It was one of the pleasures of my 55 years to date to campaign for Scottish Indy. With the exception of having my chuggy vandalised that was.
Actually talking to ordinary folk about it was a breath of fresh air and a relief from the relentless bias and negativity of the Brit Nat Press and Media.
I think meeting the folk in the neighbourhood where I live that I had never spoken to in any capacity was also refreshing. It sort of created the feeling that I was once again in a place where everybody knew everybody and not a place where everybody had become faceless TV watching strangers. It reminded of the place where I grew up.
I got the feeling that we were slowly but surely turning things around and that the huge Naw leads in the manipulated Brit Nat Press and Media opinion polls were no way as huge as they made out.
The head never went down and the spirit never flagged because I thought we could win it and felt we were going to win.
However through it all I always kept hoping the Yes Campaign would take the proverbial gloves off and put on the proverbial tackety boots.
I actually met Blair Jenkins and I thought he was just too bloody nice for the job he had been given. He was up against the worst collective of rabid Rottweiler’s ever assembled. Vicious mean bar stewards who had no moral self restraint and would use any dirty underhanded tactic they could think of and they did.
I always knew that the Press and Media would be aligned against us from the first. Very few of the scare stories were actually new. We had actually seen most of them before.
With hindsight I think there will always be a hard core of 30% to 35% or so bigots, dead in the brain time servers and selfish weasels on the proverbial take who will never vote for Indy. I see it as our job to convert the other 20 to 25% that didn’t vote Yes, the corrupt Westmidden City of London Establishment will never give us Devo to the Max.
The scare stories over Full Fiscal Autonomy or FFS for short didn’t scare off 50% of the 18 year old plus voting SNP this year. Imagine what would have happened if the 16 and 17 year olds had the vote as well. They aren’t so feart but then most of them don’t read the Brit Nat Press or watch Brit Nat TV.
The mistakes the Yes Campaign made at the beginning for me were over the EU, the Currency and Pensions. How many of us were about at the Devo Referendum and saw the same crap coming up again only even worse. I was never happy myself with how the Yes campaign responded to those scare stories. It would have been nice to hit them back since a vicious Tory Govt with a majority is indeed with us.
The local Elections in 2012 were also poor for the Yes side because it handed control of most of the Scottish Councils to the Brit Nats in various disguises. I view that momentum was lost after them and similarly after the EU Elections where to be honest the SNP really failed to get its vote out by in my view by low keying those elections.
As to the timing of the next Referendum we must avoid at all costs handing the Brit Nats a free propaganda gift like the London Olympics which we know they will turn into a Nuremburgesque Brit Nat rally and we will get pounded like that again. Heck the Brit Nats even hijacked the Commonwealth Games and where again the Yes side played way too nice.
I walked past several cars on my street today and in my neighbourhood who have never taken down the Yes stickers from their cars and vans. It gives me hope.
Sorry about the book in response.
OT – just read this interesting article on the Project Fear campaign in Catalonia. Last week, the booted-out-the-EU card was played. This week, the Big-banks-pulling-out card is being played.
link to wolfstreet.com
@Tam Jardine
So good I had to read it twice. I agree with everything you have said, in particular the latter half of your post.
One thing struck me
The circumstances of the next referendum may be very different from the last one
I think this is undeniably true, the circumstances will be different. This time they know that they might lose.
We’ed better be prepared to fight with all we’ve got if we expect to win in a second referendum.
Just a vote, we make it ours though in Scotland.
schrodingers cat
Was thinking of how to sew the seed amongst the elderly and general population that UK ain’t OK and the state pension is almost the lowest in Europe. Do you think a crowd funder along the lines of the 10,000 flags is a way to get this across? Was thinking simple factual slogans on T-shirts, and using the numbers to get the message across.
The ‘negative’ campaign yes never put across.
Tam don’t worry. My short term memory is so bad. Anything more than 2 paragraphs. I have to re-read. Lol
I never had sexual relations with that pig. For the record, in case I forget.
This sounds a good read, but remember the Tory establishment won, and they won the GE too.
Try and think about the last election, that they cared about, that they didn’t win?
1974 October GE. But Labour lost their majority by the end of that parliament.
After that Tory then “new” labour, happy to let the celtic fringes talk amongst themselves. 2007 Holyrood was a blip, but still SNP minority, 2011 SNP majority less important than Labour losing, remember the postponing of cuts imposed on English councils one year early, making SNP look better. 2010 GE to draw in the LDs and gut them silently when they weren’t looking.
In the future grassroots will be even more important, and I can’t help feeling that demos the size of those in Catalonia will be needed to show our support the truth. Is it time to save up for the bus hires to bring in the massive numbers required?
@cynicalhighlander 9.47pm
Thanks – used it as an edit to my salacious Facebook page post
It is possible that the BBC’s influence will be weaker.
Outside of the referendum debate, people have seen the monstering and scaremongering over Corbyn with it’s familiar (to us) themes and the current difference between BBC and other msm handling of piggate.
Slowly, more and more will realise that it has an establishment agenda to keep the power in the hands of the ‘good ole boys’ who all belong to the same clubs etc.
And McTernan has the cheek to call other people morons!?! What’s wrong with that guy? Seriously, that isn’t right. But they let him on the telly? Well, I suppose he’s just as right for the job as any of the other slabber-cabbages they’ve got on the telly spouting off and pontificating about political happenings
CameronB Brodie
I like how you phrase it- modernisation. We can’t put in place a manifesto as it is not an election, and the 1st government will be elected, but at the same time people expect a plan.
Maybe 2 documents. 1. A written constitution that sets out the guiding principles and rights for our new Scotland: providing the inspiration behind the whole campaign.
2. A business plan or roadmap detailing the first stage of the journey from the morning after a yes vote to the election of first governemnt.
Whoo-hoo,
Ashcroft’s just posted that Part 2’s out.
link to dailymail.co.uk
No I didn’t archive it, they deserve the clicks for this jolly jape.
Maybe Ashcroft will produce evidence of Dave’s exploits. Seen as Dave is denying them all. He could end up like Carmichael. Doomed for the lies and not the acts themselves.
It’s all about trust and sincerity in politics.
The No campaign was poor. If they had not had the editors and senior TV people on side they would have lost. In the end the BBC was the No campaign because the No campaign wasn’t up to the job.
I’ve always thought that a non political constitution was the key to convincing people there was a better way.
In no small part because of the way the Americans have pushed the concept of how wonderful their constitunal rights are over our airwaves for years.
Everyone and their grannie has a basic and positive understanding of it.There would also be no way to keep the programming during a campaign free of the notion, American input is much to pervasive, it would be like our own free broadcast propaganda.
Westminster would also struggle to rubbish one without causing offence around the globe
Channel 4 are showing “A Very British Coup” which is creepily relevant to modern times though made in 1988. Written by Labour MP Chris Mullin, it shows how the Establishment neutralises any threat to their privilege and power.
Nothing much changes in sleepy old GB.
link to channel4.com
Re: IndyRef2
I would hope that the next referendum is not held in the month of September again. I would like to see it held in the month of May.
September is when people have just came back from holidays, kids are staring back school after being off for nearly two months and generally people become a bit disengaged with politics in September.
If it was held in May, it would be only weeks after another Tory budget and people would still be up to speed and engaged with politics both at Holyrood and Westminster.
Did Dacre get left off the honours list after all his stalwart Project Fear work?
‘He can scratch a pig’s back so effectively that the creature sighs,’ said a journalist
link to dailymail.co.uk
@HandandShrimp
Yes, but the grassroots was the YES campaign, and hopefully that will grow and grow.
@ cearc
Archived version of that Daily Mail Ashcroft gossip column “The Secrets of Dave’s Chipping Snorton”. Just in case:
link to archive.is
I met Blair Jenkins once at the Balloch Highland Games and he was a very personable man but lacked the passion of the vast majority of ‘Yessers’ as someone mentioned earlier.
We, in West Dunbartonshire, voted YES and it was down to a totally dedicated team: most were not in a political party but many of us are now.
It got to the stage that I heard 14/15-year-olds on the bus talking about Independence Day – I kid you not.
What we should be doing now is writing a draft Constitution as we planned to do at our next WfI meeting after a YES vote. Sadly it was not to be but we can still draft that Constitution in the next few years.
Muscleguy @ 9.32
The RIC info was used as I along with a small team entered all the info into the Yes database. All the council schemes from what I was told were covered. I know that the polling station I was at in Douglas went like a fair all day and quite a lot came to vote after been contacted by the Yes people on polling day.
@ Finlay & Joe Kane @ 21 September, 2015 at 7.35 pm – ( : > }
Every part of the NO Campaign has imploded. Disintegrated since the Ref. The BT Parties annihilated. NO supporting Retailers/MSM sales slumped – viewers/readership down. Yes support up.
@RefTwa with the increased support and funding since the Referedum. It will be a walk over only needs a 5% swing. Who will fund BT Now they are non existent. Membership evaporated. No access to public funding, the route has dried up.
Who will donate to the Tories/LibDem/Labour losers now. Consider the increase vote to other YES Parties now, from the present Unionist voters, after the latest revelations. Cameron will be gone. The Tories/Labour/LibDem Parties in complete disarray. Who will there be with any authority to refuse another Referendum. Westminster is a complete shambles. A laughing stock.
Strike when the iron is hot. Build on the already achieved success.
Another consignment of WBB’s in plenty of distribution time would do the trick?
Thepnr
Thanks mate. I think everyone is just trying to work out the right path. We need to turn the net into the equivalent of those projects where thousands of PCs are linked up to solve some complex mathematical calculation, something no PC alone could ever manage. That is how I have come to view the way forward.
The timing of the upcoming Wings Edinburgh night out is fortuitous- plenty to discuss. Hope you can make on Saturday night.
Capella we are a problem for the establishment. We were supposed to lose the referendum then disintegrate.
What happened in May was not what they had planned. Now they are stuck as to their next move. That’s why Cameron is all over the place on this issue.
That’s why I still think the ref was fiddled. They made sure we couldn’t win. The panic when Dave came up the days before the vote. Was actually a distraction. He was planning the process of the fiddle and rehearsing the outcome. It was the postal votes. That’s why Ruth knew they had won.
Dacre in an anti EU, tax evader. UKIP – hates ‘foreigners’. No fan of Cameron. Cameron intends to campaign for the EU. Cameron has enemies among the Tories not universal liked. 20 of them would have voted against EVEL. It wouldn’t have been passed through the Commons. Conveniently put to one side/dropped.
Cameron has been outvoted in the Commons, twice? so far.
@ Big Jock
I think you may be right. That magic number 800,000 cropped up too often. Or was it coincidence?
800,000 extra ballot papers printed
800,000 postal votes
800,000 removed from the register after the vote when new system is introduced.
Remarkable.
I have rarely read so much naive nonsense as I have read in a number of comments here
How our enemies must be chuckling as they watch us poking sticks at each other. Nothing better they like than us than doing their work for them
The Yes campaign was so rotten that it lifted the YES vote from about 28% to 45% against the most relentless campaign of lies, disinformation and scaremongering ever experienced in any election in the UK in all the media and broadcasting.
It was so rotten that the SNP membership more than quadrupled as did that of the Scottish Greens so that about one adult in every forty in Scotland is now a member of the SNP.
It was so rotten that it finally destroyed the Labour Party in Scotland.
It was so rotten that I and thousands of other members of the SNP were out virtually every day and night, armed with huge amounts of well designed material doing the biggest and most detailed canvas ever seen in Scotland and we were joined by thousands of others who have remained faithful to the cause they just joined.
It was so rotten that it provided a vision of a new Scotland that has survived and is driving us on the independence.
It was so rotten that it went on to wipe out all but three of Scotland’s unionist MPs.
The biggest problem in what was a massively fruitful exercise was that the YES HQ that was established had no way of coping with the massive wave of enthusiasm which it hadn’t expected.
While I share your desire to curb any complacency, I think there’s just too much precedent for sheer unbridled idiocy in New Labour in Scotland for the better part of a decade now.
First we had McConnell’s gaffes. Then the intelligent Alexander being knifed by her own brother. Then Gray running for cover in Subway. Then the shambles that was Johann Lamont. Post-referendum, everyone genuinely thought Murphy would be the man to save New Labour in Scotland. And, well, you just saw Kezia’s latest interview.
New Labour in Scotland and the No Campaign were never our biggest problem: at best, they were mouthpieces for the real enemy.
If the No Campaign were our only opponents, we would be getting ready for independence by now. We had bigger enemies than Better Together: they were the fleas on the elephant that rocked the bridge.
My belief is that it was never the Vow, nor the Tories of Many Colours, and certainly not Better Together who won the referendum: it was the “non-political” interventions by the likes of Asda, RBS, Bowie, BP, Waitrose, the BBC, and others which sealed it. People expect politicians to lie, and the No campaign probably pushed more people to Yes than No. But when not only politicians and the official campaign, but businesses, the media, and the “famously impartial” BBC are saying it, people are far more likely to believe it.
cearc 😉
Perhaps not such an innocent quote? 🙂
How can the Prime Minister deal with Muslim nations now? ;(
At its roots, the job of the YES campaign was to kindle the fires of a grassroots YES campaign. Therefore it succeeded.
Taranaich. You are right. The no side had the entire media bought and sold. What they also had was an easy job. The BBC effectively sent their messages out for them.
Meanwhile the informed people were online talking to each other,but not the ill informed. Most of them were brainwashed by MSM and came onto troll not debate.
However perhaps this is academic if the postal vote was fiddled. We could be having a biopsy of a defeat that never was a defeat.
@ Rev noo this is ah serious request. Could you start a Crowdfunder for Davy boy to Sue Ashcroft nae need for a Indigo account, just put the donations in the PiggyBank.
Surely the guy with the photos of the Pig. Is going to be offered enough to reveal them!
Dave McEwan Hill: It was so rotten…
That’s a bizarre post – nobody here has said the Yes campaign lost by its own efforts. We’re trying to ascertain which section of the massive No campaign was the most potent, given that by the book author’s reckoning, the Blair office was a rag-bag of overheated dolts and inflated egos.
Stu, I am not an idiot. And I am especially not an idiot just because I do not follow your twitter r anyone else’s twitter account. I stay informed on my terms, not yours.
Bye.
Agree with Big Jock and Capella : 800000 postal votes
apparently split 70/30 in favour of “NO” ? No way ! and
conveniently no “exit poll ” . The exit poll probably would have been “too close to call”
a phrase used extensively by the media in the last week of the campaign ( probably accurate )Therefore the exit poll would have immediately ” flagged up the distortion in the postal
vote .
The postal ballot is “suspect ” to say the least.
@Dave McEwan Hill
Please point me to a single post that states the Yes campaign was “rotten” in any way.
I see none, I know YOU were a big part of the YES campaign but please don’t take any criticism of it personally. I may have criticised the bossman in a small way, if so I believe he was due it.
Not making the same mistake twice. Can’t afford to!
link to theguardian.com
For it is he.
Majority under 55 years of age voted YES, 95% Con and 63% Slab voted NO, Lord Vengeance doesn’t ask what people earn, or Graun haven’t printed it, are they slave waged, unemployed or inactive?
But they do know them. YES knows this vote too and failed because they didn’t know how to talk to these people. SLab knew though.
Oh God not the postal vote thing again that they were sent down to London and spivved by MI5 and flown back all in the space of about 10 minutes after they were taken out of the safes of 32 unitary authorities WHERE THEY WERE POSTED TO BY THE LIKES OF ME some of them controlled by the SNP (like mine) who were therefore obviously in on the act co-conspirators with MI5 and the forces of establishment.
And exit polls are very expensive consider the number of polling stations all would need a pollster outside to aske those coming out how they voted that’s why they’re done only for General Elections the alternative would ahve been for the Scottisah Government to organise one and Salmond did say he regretted not organising one but then I guess he was in on it with MI5 as well.
lack of punctuation totally deliberate.
I’d buy this, but I’d be giving money to that nasty right-wing shite, Iain Dale of LBC Radio infamy who owns Biteback Publishing, the publishers of this book. This guy called the Farage protesters ‘fascist scum’ and yet he enjoys assaulting pensioners who engage in peaceful protest:
link to bbc.co.uk
@heedtracker
Hi heed, full data tables from the Ashcroft are here:
link to lordashcroftpolls.com
We lost because the vote was rigged. End of. Great argument.
Ignore the polls now, they are liars, controlled by the likes of Ashcroft. Great argument.
Yes is ahead Yeah! Yes is behind, lying bastards.
I feel you pain, but following your logic yes will have to have at least 80% support before calling another referendum.
Want to know how I know that Yes lost the vote?
Just look at the number of fuckers in Scotland who still voted for a Unionist party in May, YES not quite 50% but what about those who will vote SNP but never for Independence and you know as well as me that these strangers exist.
The last battle is OVER we that wanted Independence lost that one. See when the next battle starts where will YOU be? Right in the front line? Or sniping in the background?
@ northchiel
They did it in Indyref 1 and they will do it again.
They did it because they could get away with it and there is nothing in place to stop it next time.
Why did those votes leave this jurisdiction and go to South East of England for”safe keeping”?
Where exactly did they go and who was looking after them?
800, 000 on 70 / 30 for NO? Really?
@Tam Jardine, @Cameron B Brodie
Totally agree, about a non-party-political proposed constitution, and a roadmap for modernisation beginning at day zero of independence.
A constitutional convention – including people from academia, human rights, law, charities, trade unions, business, religious bodies, and so on should be established – with maybe some representation from willing political parties. With enough grassroots pressure, a future official YES campaign could be persuaded to endorse it. Then we send a copy ot two, with a summary, to every household in Scotland.
You’re right: people can be fickle about ‘not liking thonalicsammin’, and can be befuddled by pravdaGB – but it’s hard to see past a constitution that guarantees rights, including the rights of pensioners, the rights of women, the rights of all citizens and residents, regardless of origin.
It could be a massive boost to the next campaign, and would spike quite a few UKOK cannons [not to mention the obvious benefits of a modern, democratic, progressive constitution for the future].
I would just like to comment here…I have followed, and subscribed to WoS for a long time…months before the Referendum. I distributed many, many copies of the Wee Blue Book, canvassed, argued and spiritually bled for Independence. I have debated, argued and all but physically battled for the right to have my own country governed by our own people.
On many, many occasions, you (Rev. Stu.) have advised that most people only read the first few lines and are influenced by them.They then form opinions without researching further.
“(Readers who aren’t IDIOTS and therefore do follow our Twitter account have already enjoyed a small selection this afternoon.)”
I do not have a Twitter account.
Ergo…I a must be an IDIOT.
Goodbye, Stu.
Craig Murray’s latest post is amusing
link to craigmurray.org.uk
@scotspine
The votes didn’t go to the South of England for safekeeping, that’s one of the ridiculous myths of the aftermath and vey possibly WAS started by MI5 with the sole purpose of discrediting the Indy movement.
My postal vote was addressed to whatever full council address it is in NORTH AYRSHIRE where I live, and that council is a NOC – No Overall Control, but the SNP are in control with one more councillor than Labour. And there it stayed, in their safe, apart from the sample openings, until counted on the 18th September. And by the way, postal votes were able to be submitted to polling stations anywhere in the authrority area right up until 10 pm when the polling station closed.
@Brian Forrest
I don’t have Twitter either or facebook thank God. It’s one of the Rev’s foibles and with all his hard work, I think he’s entitled to it, even if it does make him an idiot.
Brian Forrest
To err is human?
GB
next time around we have to be well-prepared to fight the media head on. We have to think of ways to reach the public direct that carries authenticity and weight
TJ
Was thinking of how to sew the seed amongst the elderly and general population that UK ain’t OK and the state pension is almost the lowest in Europe.
these 2 posts hit the nail on the head.
we can crowd fund projects. we have a proven track record
we can also distribute anything we want to every house in Scotland. that organization already exists
another wbb? yes
more newspapers? yes
but we need to target the over 55’s and address the simple and limited issues the no camp kept harping on about
eg
Europe
currency
pensions
we can carp on about how the bbc etall stole the ref, which they did, but we need to come up with a strategy to counter this before indyref2. this should be a focus for a debate, im open to suggestions
I do not have a Twitter account.
Ergo…I a must be an IDIOT.
Goodbye, Stu.
um…I don’t have a twitter account either, however, if you type wos twitter into google, you can read what is being poster by him or indeed anything on twitter, unless it isn’t available to the public.
Have made myself look like an Idiot many times, Rev Stu though isn’t trying to decide if you are or aren’t whether or not you read his twitter.
He was suggesting you might want to take a look and see the news in advance. I said as much in my very early post. I thought he would have given an article on the incompetence of BMcD or JM because of his tweets. I’m sure we’ll hear more.
Nobody who contributes on here in any meaningful way is an idiot other than us idiots.
@schrodingers cat
Long time no scratch, will you make it to Edinburgh next week? Up for some proper conversation if you get my meaning.
That reads really badly, best explain. Some wingers including myself are thinking of getting “better organised” for the inevitable.
Distributing for example an WBB2 next time will not be so hectic if we can put plans in place first. This is not about any political party, purely how to achieve Independence and what we small people can do.
Firstly get to know each other, have a chat and take it from there.
This baby hasn’t been born yet, we’re planning the birth.
Brian Forrest says:
22 September, 2015 at 12:59 am
“I do not have a Twitter account.
Ergo…I a must be an IDIOT.”
Goodbye, Stu.”
————
Capital letters means sarcasm as well as shouting.
Maybe it’s a twitter thing. 99.9% sure that was ‘tongue in cheek’ 🙂
BTW, Twitter is well worth joining if you like political news. I set it up on my phone a couple of months ago, and don’t post much, but it is fantastic for instant political news and jokes. Addictive actually.
Maybe we could have an article here about getting started on twitter, with recommended accounts to follow for supporters of independence. Although it’s easy enough to figure out.
Winding up the public is easy to do, sending them in the direction you want them to go in is easy to do
It doesn’t take geniuses or even great trickery otherwise folk like Bliar McDonut would never have been employed
All it needs is contacts, media compliance, and a willing print press, all of which the NO campaign had
What makes it easy is, the public have no immediate reply structure so anger is the first and easiest weapon followed by confusion and deflection
The YES campaign had social media, if they had not we would have lost by an enormous margin
The problem with social media is the users themselves they concentrate on each other about a subject which is then changed by the opposition in the media ( that’s the deflection part) the mainstream population are looking and listening to the next story on TV NEWS which remember, is the truth ( it’s on the news )while the YES campaign are busy trying to debunk the first lie
Denigration of your opposition: The NO campaign were very good at that because all they had was deception hence words like: Cybernats, Insurgents, Separatists, Extremists, all came to symbolise Nationalists which became an acceptable term meaning Bad and they still use it Nazis Nationalists it’s the same thing to Mr and Mrs Elderly safe people
You can’t win a fight by self defence and that was the YES campaigns difficulty, too many enemies on too many sides
The Irish had the same problem then they lost the plot and fought back the wrong way and fell into the Britnat trap and allowed themselves to be seen as the bad guys, after that there’s no recovery
Nicola Sturgeon is no fool, the next Referendum will be fought by attacking the Brits putting them on the back foot
Most of the Campaign next time will be about money and we’ll have enough, the ground work is well under way with all the Unionist parties in complete disarray and her visits to other countries having lifted her profile above what the Tory Party have described the nasty Nationalists to be, she is seen now by other countries as a credible Governing force she will wait for the right moment and my belief is that will be before the end of the next parliament
Opposition to Independence from other Nations won’t happen
because Cameron’s credibility as UK leader will be diminished as he hands over to Osborne with no opposition from whoever is leader of the Labour party, the way they’re going it could be Kezia Dugdale ( that’s a joke BTW)
I’m very optimistic at the moment, every other political party in Britain at this moment is in bits except the SNP and if you think about it when did that start, then you think, was that the plan all along
@Thepnr
A suggestion for distribution would be to have a list somewhere, kept up to date, of requirements. I can’t commit in advance as I often don’t know where I’ll be in a day or two, let alone a week, but on the other hand drive all over Scotland (not big towns) regularly at times in the year.
What I could do is look up the list, and perhaps collect and deliver a stack, say up to 300Kg, from one point to another, if I had room. Couldn’t help last time, wrong time of year!
No one needs a Twitter account to follow Wings Twitter feed. Just right click on the Twitter logo at the top of the page and open in a new tab. Job done! You do not need an account to follow. Absolutely no need to sign up to anything.
Bah! Still getting delay when posting. I kind of hoped it was fixed. I think Stu mentioned it was sorted on Twitter today. 🙁
Ha! Now the comments appear instantly. Sorry Stu. Wee embarrassed face thingy. Still no autofill but I can live with that.
Greetings to newly-renamed poster nodPARAGRAPHBREAKrog ! 🙂
In IndyRef1, the grassroots almost won;
in IndyRef2, the grassroots, now stronger than ever, will definitely win, as long as they (we) are backed up by a more feisty official Yes campaign.
We need to put pressure on the pro-union BBC and MSM, and there’s no time like the present! Remove the ‘authority’ of the print media, make the switherers know how much they are being misled and lied to by BBC, Record, Press & Journal, Scotsman, etc. Support the National by buying it, and by sharing it with others.
I would love to see another pro-indy daily paper, namely a direct rival to the Record and Sun. A tabloid which would cover sports in the same depth, have horse racing and tv and gossip, etc, and be different only in being pro-indy instead of pro-Labour.
Any millionaires out there feel willing to sink money into such a project? 🙂
No Sleep Til Indy.
‘Readers who aren’t IDIOTS and therefore do follow our Twitter account’. (Not the first time you have made this comment)
Hum. I do follow WOS on twitter (though I have it muted and look at it separately from my own timeline). I follow it because you do good stuff on the question of Scottish independence, and you may have noticed that I support you on this.
Like many twitter accounts, there is a certain amount of noise, and there are aspects of your tweeting which might discourage someone from following you. I am not interested in football, though personally I can live with seeing your tweets on the subject.
More serious from my point of view is your relentless promotion of Stephen Daisley, who is an entrenched and uncompromising Zionist (see: link to news.stv.tv and also the response on Scot Goes Pop: link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.nz)
Daisley has clearly read and absorbed the Zionist’s Guide to Debate on Palestine, which must advocate cheap jibes about the Holocaust instead of a serious discussion of facts and issues. His article is irritating for its intellectual dishonesty and breathtaking in its callousness.
I find your promotion of Daisley distasteful, even though you disassociate yourself from some of his views. I have not noticed your retweeting the announcement of new SNP Friends of Palestine, and I am inclined to believe you share his attitude to Palestinian rights. If I am wrong in this, I apologise.
In short, there are a number of reasons why supporters of Wings might choose not to follow you on Twitter – idiotic or not.
@Thepnr
sorry, cant make it, offshore on wed, we will meet up at the next do 🙂
@Dr Jim
I’ve wondered the same myself. Perhaps projections showed that the ref, from so far back, was unlikely to be won, so a long-term plan was followed. Quite possibly in that case, a plan worked out years ago.
I knew for instance from way back that the big problem was indoctrination, years, decades of it, and that would take a long campaign to get over, to get people to think “yes, we can do it”. Plus lack of confidence, even self-confidence. Devolution helped, but still quite young.
Perhaps if we live to be 100 we’ll find out when the official book comes out!
@David
The problem is I guess, that if the YES campaign had been good everybody would have left it to them and there would have been no grassroots. So perhaps not being good was the gameplan all along.
Agree that the official YES campaign played it a bit too safe, and didn’t put much attachment on the emotional appeal for independence, and the increased self-confidence and self-respect that would bring us as a nation.
Maybe we could have had snapshots of the future.
eg billboards of a future Scottish squad marching into the Olympics under the saltire with the single word ‘PRIDE’
Or posters of a huge Edinburgh fireworks display on Independence Day, with the Scottish flag fluttering in the breeze on top of the castle..
yesindyref2 says:
@Thepnr
A suggestion for distribution would be to have a list somewhere
all we need is someone in each constituency involved in the snp
eg, I know of 3 or 4 wingers who are involved in distribution of leaflets in my constituency alone. the structure already exists, we have maps, distribution list people who coordinate in each area. we even know in advance how many wbbs we would need. the rev tweeted this evening that for the cost of the white book, he could have delivered a wbb to everyone in Scotland. indeed, it was this system and the very same people who were responsible for delivering the wbb in this area last time. and it will be created again
bear in mind that when indyref2 is called, we will all revert back to being YES, we just need a winger in each constituency to feed any literature into the system at the activist level. we cant do it through the official yes campaign. WOS being separate from any official yes group has its advantages, eg, the yes and no camps are limited wrt tv access, something the no camp circumnavigated by creating false groups like no borders etc, we need to do the same, eg. if private eye can run adverts on stv during an election campaign, so can we
@schrodingers cat
I’m thinking more the distirbution between constituencies. So for instance if there’s a huge stack of WBB2 in say Oban that need to get to Portree or Ullapool, a few big boxes, I might be able to help, and there might be others like that – making the trip anyway, with spare space.
So effectively before going off on my trip, I check out the main list, then arrange to stop off in Oban and drop off in Portree a day or two later.
yesindyref2 says:
22 September, 2015 at 3:20 am
I knew for instance from way back that the big problem was indoctrination, years, decades of it, and that would take a long campaign to get over, to get people to think “yes, we can do it”. Plus lack of confidence, even self-confidence. Devolution helped, but still quite young.
———–
Yeah, I agree the single biggest help to the cause of independence has been the internet and social media, and that will continue to increase in importance.
An older generation had the same old media feeding them propaganda, day in day out. And we now also have a pro-Scottish viewpoint at the news-stands which is fantastic.
Another issue is income tax devolution.
Devolving this tax in isolation was intended to hobble the parliament and hurt the SNP, but I have a feeling that might backfire. It is the most visible tax, and will increase the status and importance of Holyrood, and the perception that all other taxes should be staying in Scotland.
The idea that we should ‘upgrade’ the Scottish Parliament with the remaining powers, will become more real.
Like a jigsaw with missing pieces.
@Onwards
Yes, the trickle effect, or gradualism.
The SG do have a problem with getting some powers not others, and that’s the problem of ending up worse off financially. All taxes go up and down, the balance usually helps smooth them out, but with just the one tax devolved it’s very reliant on employment levels and wage levels, without the ability to get the value of VAT (or 50% of it), or the other taxes and revenues.
The SG are aware of this of course, hence Swinney & Sturgeon saying the SG might refuse the Scotland Act if it could damage Scotland. There’s a potential trap, but I know they were aware of that at the time Smith was announced. What they did with Devo-Max was that, since nobody else defined it, they did, and took ownership of it. DM or FFA has that balance but so far it’s not on offer, so whatever package of powers is devolved has to at least be stable – something Smith pointed out himself.
Sorry about teaching sucking eggs!
Some postal voting data from Ashcroft’s extensive post voting survey.
Of the people surveyed:-
Voted by post 22%
Voted in person 78%
Overall Y 45% : N 55%
Postal Y 38% : N 62%
In person Y 47% : N 53%
These are real people and imply there would be a No win even among those voting in person.
These figures appear to be fairly consistent with the way the whole country voted.
I have no doubt there was cheating in the case of some individual older people having their votes nobbled. However, overall this would be tiny. I don’t believe there was a large scale conspiracy to alter significant numbers of votes.
Just google (or whatever) Wings over Scotland twitter
Ashcroft’s Polls are flawed. They should be treated with caution. There has already been an Inquiry into his unprofessional methods, and why the Poll resukts were so inaccurate. Electoral rules have been broken. Ashcroft, the Tories and other Pollsters (Curtice) are using Polls to influence the outcome and how people vote. Ashcroft, the Tories and other Parties are trying to illegally influence the Polls through illegal and unprofessional data collection and statistics analysis. Scheming and skewing the Polls results to illegally influence the outcome to make money. Often misusing Public monies ie illegal embezzling. ‘The piper calls the tune’.
The Pollsters were also wrong on the Greece election results.
There are elections every year at the beginning of May.Lets concentrate on winning what’s in front of us.
Scotland has always raised enough money to cover all expenses. Westminster have illegally and secretly falsified the UK accounts to defraud Scotland and misuse Scottish revenues. Scotland has always been in credit (taken illegally and secretly). The the rest of the UK has been in deficit on revenues raised and borrowed and spent excessively. Not lived within their means.
Scotland has been illegally and secretly defraud for hundreds of years by Westminster. They are two separate (fraudulent) revenue streaming schemes being used and the Scottish economy is being taxed illegally at a higher fiscal rate than the rest of the UK. HMRC is not fit for purpose. Fraudulent separate books are being kept. Revenues/Expenses are being kept off the books with fraudulent accounting methods.
There is mass tax evasion and fraud being condoned by Westminster. The UK tax Laws are not being enforced and Westminster is one of the main centres of tax evasion. Scotland’s economy has been illegally mismanaged by Westminster breaking the agreed terms of the Act of Union that Scotland would be treated equally. The UK is a failed State.
The latest Tories escapade is proof of that I.e concerning standards in public life. It is not if Cameron et al will go but when. Another constitutional crisis, but as Thatcher said about criminal, abusive, deviant behaviour within the Tory Party, ‘Boys will be boys’.
Heraldnomore says
“Interesting positioning of that flag behind Osborne in China. Assuming it to be a UJ, but only visible part a red cross on white background. Presumably that’s the way it’s going to be. Better Together.”
I noticed that, I had to look twice because I thought I was looking at a George Cross as well.
_______________________________________________________
Ian More says
” Heck the Brit Nats even hijacked the Commonwealth Games and where again the Yes side played way too nice.”
That infuriated me more than anything else,
watching OUR Games being taken over was the most humiliating thing I have ever seen, allowing THEIR agenda to dominate in OUR country was a thing I never want to experience again , when people were searched for yes saltires before entering the venues was like being in an occupied country, which of course WE ARE!
___________________________________________________________
Tam Jardine says
“Was thinking of how to sew the seed amongst the elderly and general population that UK ain’t OK and the state pension is almost the lowest in Europe. Do you think a crowd funder along the lines of the 10,000 flags is a way to get this across? ”
Nope, this can be done on a shoestring,
where do most pensioners congregate? at bus stops that’s where, one of us (I nominate Tam) 🙂 could collate a league table of pensions across Europe and we could individually print them off and post them on every bus stop that has a shelter LARGE PRINT :), and keep going back and putting them up when the (as they most assuredly will )take them down
cost:
SFA!
________________________________________________________
Big Jock says
“I never had sexual relations with that pig. For the record, in case I forget.”
How can you be so sure?
I remember waking up on a trawler in Tromso with a rather TOO friendly seal licking my face. 🙁
_____________________________________________________
@proud cybernat @ Brian Forrest
Oh…oh…oh..
Stu said sumfing bad lets go and never darken his towels again,
seriously can you hear yourselves?
btw did you hand in your proud cybernat badge on the way out?
MIND THE HAMMERS!
________________________________________________________
Cameron B Brodie says
“Brian Forrest
To err is human?”
To act like a spoiled child is irritating.
Im looking at you proud cybernat/Brian Forrest
________________________________________________________
David says
“will definitely win, as long as they (we) are backed up by a more feisty official Yes campaign. ”
interpret Feisty?
MSM : reasonable discourse and assimilation of the debate.
Yes campaign: rude and bullying cybernats, to be ignored!
Until we get some semblance of balance in the media we will always be on the back foot playing a defensive game because the minute we get the ball they’re crying foul.
______________________________________________________
The Flag was the Chinese?
No Universal Suffrage in China but Osbourne will pimp himself anywhere for even more (public) monies to fraudulently squander putting up the national debt. Osbourne and his associates are fraudulently and illegally embezzling £Millions/Billions of public money, to line their pockets in bank charges and consultancy fees. That is why they are in politics. Osbourne is a crook, an enemy of the people. He should be put in jail for the mismanagement of the UK economy increasing the debt. Guilt as hell.
Agree with Taranaich @ 11.39pm.
The No/Better Together campaign team were not entirely responsible for their winning. I spoke to many people who were swayed by theats of higher food prices from the likes of ASDA and Iceland. Or worried about their pensions and believing the lies printed in the likes of the Daily Record / Mail / Express / Herald. Throw in the constant stream of bias from BBC and the other TV channels too and it was just enough to let NO win.
We can do something about this now, whilst biding our time until the next referendum. If we boycott them en masse – ASDA, Iceland, Marks & Spencers, John Lewis, B & Q, Tunnocks, Baxters, Mackies, all the Unionist Newspapers etc., then it is much less likely to happen again. Boycotts do work. For example, Coors Beers of Colorado lost 65% of their sales in the early 1980’s after a boycott organized by LGBT campaigners in San Francisco against the company, due to Coors outrageous anti-gay / anti-union hiring policies.
Every time we spend money with the companies who came out against Scotland and our Independence, we tacitly give them our seal of approval to do the same thing again. Time to send them a message, which will also make other companies think twice in future about coming out in support of a NO vote.
As far as the BBC are concerned, we’re never going to change them. They will always do the bidding of their rich friends in government. STOP watching live TV and STOP paying the licence fee. No licence required if you only watch catch-up TV, just let them know via the licencing website and they will even stop sending you threatening letters.
Meantime, we should continue to change the minds of those who reluctantly voted NO by feeding them facts. This was where the Wee Blue Book was invaluable. All the facts were at our fingertips and I personally found it superb at converting the soft NO voters. Roll on WBB2.
Aye, there are lessons to be learnt, no question. IMO though, the YES campaign got more right than it got wrong. All of us are the YES campaign. We took on one of the most powerful, entrenched government systems in the world, their entire propaganda wing, the full weight of corporate interest, plus three hundred years of their narrative and coming from nowhere over a two year period, pushed the bastards right to the wire.
YOU did that and YOU are the YES campaign. Those folks in offices and sitch were administrators and facilitators. They put the odd weel kent kisser in front of a camera and by and large did no too bad considering the meeja were always going to either a. deny them access or b. control what access they did get. Now our own government and the campaign heid bummers do have some lessons to learn from that for take two. It will require different strategy and planning from their end, but as for the grassroots YES campaign?
FFS, look at what you accomplished and what you’ve continued to accomplish since the referendum. Westminster and their meeja are in near panic mode because of you guys. You’re doing a superb job of fucking up their day to the point where you’ve broken the back of one party’s self interested stanglehold on Scotland, wiped out another and have the last one falling over themselves stabbing each other in the back. You’ve got their media not knowing whether they’ve been punched, bored or countersunk and foaming at the mooth besides.
WHY?
Because you didn’t get back in your box or come to heel.
That tide IS coming back in because of you and it doesn’t matter if it goes to indyref2 or 3 or 4, we need only win once to give the people back their own government and choice for the future.
@Nodrog
I have always thought that Better Together was a front organization run to cover what was going on elsewhere in the UK Government, the multi-Nationals and the 1%ers. Included in the 1%ers are the press “barons”.
I do believe that Better Together has achieved some of its its real aim, which was to sucker in the political parties and weaken them.
However, I think that they are now suffering what might be termed blowback. That includes the growth of the SNP and the revival of the real Labour Party.
All it needs now is for the average Conservative voters to tumble to the fact that the Tories work exclusively for the benefit their major donors and super-rich supporters. All the rest are expendable including them.
John King
“(I nominate Tam) 🙂 could collate a league table of pensions across Europe and we could individually print them off and post them on every bus stop that has a shelter LARGE PRINT :), and keep going back and putting them up when the (as they most assuredly will )take them down”
Inspired John. Reminds me of the Soviet Union using pencils in space instead of trying to develop a pen that will work in zero gravity. Hope to see you on Saturday night mate?
Macart & Dave McEwan Hill
I hope you boys don’t think that in trying to find the best route forward anyone is getting down about the campaign. It was the best period of my life, when I felt most alive.
This does not and should not preclude anyone from coming up with ways of doing the job better next time around. My only fear in doing so is that any positive ideas will get lost in the ether.
Of course, trying to reach a concensus on Wings is a bit like herding cats whilst figuring out the rosetta stone.
One last recollection in the spirit of your posts. My favourite memory was some footage on independence live days or maybe a week before(?) of an impromptue gathering in George Square.
There was no Tommy Sheridan or indy celebs or big name speakers. There was a big crowd of people and one of them had a microphone/megaphone. They were passing it round ordinary members of the public who would just talk about what they wanted the new Scotland to be. It was glorious and it brings a lump to my throat remembering it.
Have a great day Wingers
OT I see the EU has warned Catalonia that independence will see them ejected from the EU.
Perhaps we need to stand by our Catalonian brothers and write to the EU reminding them the UK will have a referendum on membership soon. A few hundred thousand Scots threatening to vote out may concentrate their minds. The EU were bastards during our campaign.
I say all this as someone who on balance is in favour of the EU! But not at any cost.
For those who don’t know how to get Wings Twitter without googling, here it is:
link to twitter.com
AND NOW BOOKMARK IT.
I don’t have a Twitter account but do follow Wings Tw. as it is very quick and with up to the minute postings.
A lot of graphics, photos, gifs and links are shown straight away without having to open new tabs etc. etc.
If you get the urge to post then by all means join Twitter.
It’s just like the normal W.O.S but more dynamic and very quick. 🙂
The Rev also informs about new threads
I can understand largely why those over 55 would tend to vote No. But glaring out is the 18/24 group. They would benefit most from economic opportunity. They are far away from pension age ( and immortal ). They are all tech savvy / facebooked up. Why did they split in favour of No?
All the scary graphs of demography I saw in my life had a rectangle tapering off at old age. Was this, like we hear elsewhere, a vote where the elderly turned out and the young did not? I know we had turnout of 85%, and I’m sure a lot of dead voters voted No too, but was the bulk of the 15% ( or more ) which stayed home concentrated in the under 55 age group?
@ truth
It’s interesting to see Project Fear tactics being aimed at Catalonia and also at Jeremy Corbyn. The threat of being ejected from the EU club, the threat to National Security, the threat that big corporations will desert us etc etc.
@ john king
great idea about the league table of pensions. Maybe some other leagues could be tallied up – national debt, minimum wage, working hours, holidays, broadband speeds, education etc.
[…] We don’t recommend buying “Project Fear” if you have a weak jaw, because you’re going to spend a lot of time banging it off your desk. From the opening pages it delivers stunning quotes like machine-gun bullets and it never lets up. (Readers who aren’t IDIOTS and therefore do follow our Twitter account have already enjoyed a small selection this afternoon.) […]
@Tam Jardine
Hell naw Tam. 🙂
As I said, lessons and strategies at the suited end could use an overhaul, no question.
I’m a big believer in giving credit where it’s due and folks can be awfy quick to doubt themselves sometimes. I like to remind people of what they’ve achieved every now and again.
Never hurts to give that credit and acknowledge effort, especially when things look a wee bit dark. Its easy to lose your way in the dark unless somebody brings a torch.
cearc says – 21 September, 2015 at 11:10 pm – “Whoo-hoo,”
“Ashcroft’s just posted that Part 2’s out.”
(direct link to daily mail removed). “No I didn’t archive it, they deserve the clicks for this jolly jape.”
No they bloody well don’t!
Cearc then posts the exact same link again 7 minutes later.
Congratulations on your support for the right wing Unionist media. And a special thank you to all who clicked on those links to help the scumbags promote their lies, hatred and racist views.
Well done all involved, you should feel proud of yourselves, NOT!
O/T links
Former parliamentary standards watchdog criticises Sir Malcolm Rifkind and Jack Straw over ‘cash-for-access’
link to archive.is
link to stopwar.org.uk
link to nujscotland.org.uk
link to jonathan-cook.net
link to nworeport.me
Have been listening to Five Live and Radio Scotland on-and-off since approx. 4.45 a.m. and haven’t yet heard one mention of pig-gate.
They couldn’t possibly be stupid enough to D-Notice this, could they? Talk about shutting the stable door…
Bought the Daily Mail for a one and only time time, but it was worth it. Self indulgent.
Midgehunter, I have Wings Twitter account bookmarked and it is where some very interesting things come to light, I don’t tweet, I leave that to those who like emulating the birds, and then they have the hang of it. Like Kezia on the BBC Wales saying that Scotland and Wales are smaller than the rest of England, nothing I like better than seeing Kez making the complete erse that she is. Maybe she might get the good people of Wales asking why they are so damned loyal to Labour?
It the Oxford graduates in the MSM, all in it together to try damage limitation.
The amount of ignorance about pensions is huge and most definitly needs sorting out as quickly as possible BEFORE the next SE 2016.
I’ve had the great pleasure of working for my old company in many different places around the world. I’m now (officialy) retired but I do run an SME as a supplier to the commerial land development business.
I was also a long term resident / working and paying taxes in a couple of other countries in Europe.
As a pensioner I receive 3 (THREE) pensions, each proportional to to the amount of time in residence.
I get a pension from the UK, Denmark and Germany. Payable to my account in Frankfurt in Euros.
The Pound is quite strong against the Euro at the moment so because of the currency difference I’m getting roughly 20% more from the UK pension than usual. 🙂
AND all without any problems.
Just about every country in the world has pension agreements with everybody else so that when Scotland is independent there will be NO problems with the payment of pensions from England to Scottish residents who qualify.
If anyone has a problem case, then send them to me, I’ll try to help where possible.
18/24 year old No voters – Non residential students from elsewhere. (passing throough) Small % of Electorate No 3/5 year? Residential qualification.
The Polls are skewed. Stop the endless repetitive, blame game analysis. It is boring and non productive. 200,000 People voted No. Some have changed their minds 56 SNP MPs. Move on and convince more to YES. It just needs a 5% swing.
I posted the daily politics link yesterday on another thread, so for anyone who didn’t see what a total pigshit looks like here’s kelvin…
Kelvin MacKenzie Offends Scots After Calling Nicola Sturgeon ‘The Lady Who Runs Jockistan’
link to archive.is
From a twitter user If @NicolaSturgeon is from “Jockistan” What country breeds the PM who gets aroused by pigs? Pigmenistan?
and as for the presenter who didn’t bat an eyelid well I’d best not say what I think of her.
Ah,v asked the Rev via Twitter to stop feeding you,s lot Pork Scratchings, but you,s beat me to it you,s are back on the Popcorn.
Lots of good idea,s flowing T Jardine, J King, Macart, ect ect.
paulTgeist You lay aff Ma wee Chook, (cearc) some of us dont know how to archive, same as some of us dont know how to do Twitter F/Book, we focus on the INFORMATION therein.
@ John King Spirtle working well,You should have left the Instructions in the poke, but I managed tae work it oot.
Thanks to fur the Widden Spoon,ur you cawin me ah stirrer lol, XX to Irene sees you,s on Saterday.
Capella
Maybe that’s what could keep it fresh. A big fitba style league table with stats on pension, life expectancy against GDP with the slogan below ‘Better Together? Aye, right!
UK pension is the second lowest in Europe. The UK economy is the second largest in Europe.’
Next time, vote yes’
change it up every few weeks with a new focus. Working hours? Transport? Energy, Resources. Exports? But link it back to the people getting a raw deal.’
People do not differential between the (UK) OA pension (paid by Scottish taxpayers) and occupational pension (funds) paid out to people anywhere (world over)
Tam Jardine
Here you go Tam. 😉
link to stats.oecd.org
The Catalonia/Quebec Independence Movements and the Scottish Independence Movement are quite different. Culture, traditions history, population etc. It is difficult to make comparison without qualification. Not comparing like with like. The EU did not threaten to throw out an Independent Scotland out of the EU. The Spanish Gov/politicians spoke out of turn with no authority.
The Scottish Independence Movement has more support in Scotland pro rata as a % of population.
Its the suits that run corps like these wot won it. The gits at the Record, Beeb etc are merely their shills. SLabour are their puppets too but they’ve been wiped out and won’t be back till they change.
link to theguardian.com
link to theguardian.com
link to theguardian.com
From now on, we shop here.
link to theguardian.com
Robert Peffers says:
21 September, 2015 at 10:05 pm
Only the most loyal Unionists still believe the media are right and telling the truth to the public. Most unionists still read, listen and view but now know they are listening to utter balderdash. As such it is not too big a step to allow the truth to begin to erode their, often fierce, loyalties to their parties, their Union and the crown.
It just takes time, Robert. It just takes time.
Erosion is a gradual process.
@ Ian Brotherhood – no it isn’t D noticed but it is damage liitation. heard the closing minutes of the Today programme where John Humphreys joked with Rachel Johnston (Boris’s sister) and Lucy Tobin (journalist on Evening Standard).
Naturally two posh women would be the go-to pundits for secret initiation ceremonies in secret male societies. Rachel claimed The Bullingdon Club antics were all a myth invented by Evelyn Waugh in Brideshead Revisited. But it was founded in 1780.
So funny.
Rachel is being a little economical with the truth. There was an excellent video on Youtube about the Bullingdon Club in which Rachel featured. But, strangely, the sound has been removed! And the subtitles have been mangled!
link to youtube.com
Is this North Korea?
@ John Kerr 7.30am
I agree wholeheartedly. I have no tv licence (my kids are being brought up without tv or English radio), don’t shop in ASDA (I used to shop no where else), don’t buy Mackies ice cream or Tunnocks stuff. I get my DIY from Homebase, electricals from Argos, food from Lidl or Aldi (Aldi’s better) etc.
Obviously, it’s not possible to avoid all the basterts (depends where you live) but I do my best. I don’t read any English language newspapers any more either – except The National/Sunday Herald nor do I listen to English language radio.
My life has changed quite a bit over the last couple of years, practically and mentally. It has been very beneficial to myself and my family in lots of ways – especially doing without tv – lots more time with the kids.
I have cut myself off,to a large extent, from British “culture”. You could say I’ve emigrated without moving house!
Polls are done on minuscule samples. They are bound to be unrepresentative. Different Polls contradict each other. Only one small one using the correct methodology and correct analysis has ever been accurate, worldwide (US) Plus the Rev Stu’s. Kudos.
BTW the Bullingdon Club video seems to have been doctored less than 19 hours ago. The newest comment doesn’t mention the sound being trashed.
john king says:
22 September, 2015 at 6:53 am
Heraldnomore says
“Interesting positioning of that flag behind Osborne in China. Assuming it to be a UJ, but only visible part a red cross on white background. Presumably that’s the way it’s going to be. Better Together.”
I noticed that, I had to look twice because I thought I was looking at a George Cross as well.
There was a triathlon on telly the other day. I was at my parents’ house. They are of an age where they get their propoganda supplied free.
The GB team’s kit was printed and cut in such a way that 4 of us were all convinced the Butchers apron was actually a george cross.It took a while before we could agree it actually was a union flag.
link to 220triathlon.com
Also the whole “Dave the pig f*cker ” (You f*uck ONE pig!!)
thing… Published by the mail – story provided by a tory party funder and we believe it??
Meanwhile Osborne breaks yet another Tory promise and removes Primary School meals.
Oh look a (pig) squirrel!
Thepnr @ 12.42
Thepnr wrote : “Want to know how I know that Yes lost the vote?
Just look at the number of fuckers in Scotland who still voted for a Unionist party in May, YES not quite 50% but what about those who will vote SNP but never for Independence and you know as well as me that these strangers exist.”
… as is often the case, Thepnr provides the voice of reason. Whilst my interventions are not always fully appreciated by everyone, I have repeatedly tried to suggest that it is the 55% that you have to convince (or about an additional 5.1% of them). And yet, Yes voters are constantly vilified (even called F*******s by Thepnr) and abused by commenters here.
IMHO (a rare occasion), this constant barrage of “we was robbed” (rigged postal votes, the MSM, the BBC, The Westminster politicians, the lies, the fearmongering, etc) serves no purpose whatsoever – other than to excuse the fact that the majority were not convinced.
Thepnr highlights the public perception that vote “YES” – “get the SNP” is probably the problem. It would appear that at least 50% of Scottish voters don’t want an SNP government of an Independent Scotland – and will therefore vote No to avoid that outcome – rather than a “heart” vote for an Independent Scotland.
In the same way that many here complain that the “Westminster establishment” personify the No campaign, many in Scotland see Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Salmond, No Trident, tax and spend economics, etc, as the personification of the YES campaign.
…. And thereby lies the problem.
O/T
I wouldn’t normally link directly to a Unionist rag but you cant archive video (maybe someone can tell me different) for this video of Alex Salmond from yesterday talking of “dirty tricks” I’ll make an exception.
link to pressandjournal.co.uk
CameronB Brodie
Perfect – thanks Cameron.
Bonus video from the same site, quick before the sound is removed – an Adam Curtis film “Every Day is Like Sunday”, about the attempt of Cecil King to engineer a coup against the then Labour Government. Watch out JC coups are in the air:
link to youtube.com
@Thepnr
Enjoyed watching Alec there.
Sounds as if civil servants came damn close to sedition with their purdah breaking, democracy undermining antics.
Interesting story Cal, very similar to myself. For me it is also very gratifying knowing that my family’s minds are no longer being poisoned with English/British nationalism.
It is good to hear other people making positive changes to their lives.
IMHO (a rare occasion), this constant barrage of “we was robbed” (rigged postal votes, the MSM, the BBC, The Westminster politicians, the lies, the fearmongering, etc) serves no purpose whatsoever – other than to excuse the fact that the majority were not convinced.
Sure sensible. Problem is, the historic The Vow fraud was intended to do what?
Scotland polls majority high for devo-max, UK.gov says not a chance in UKOK hell, week before 18 Sept, panic stricken UKOK slams in with their The Vow shyste of nothing.
And all to keep England’s control of their Scotland region. It worked sensibledave, this time.
RT on BBC propaganda war.
“What’s needed now is an urgent conference involving journalists, unions and NGOs to fight censorship in Britain. It must not involve compromised NGOs such as Index on Censorship, the Committee to Protect Journalists etc., who have proved time and time again to be one-sided about censorship. It should implore Ofcom to uphold the principle that news, in whatever form, must be reported with due accuracy and presented with due fairness to all positions, not just the ones belonging to the foreign policy establishment.”
link to rt.com
@ Thepnr (he at 9.46) Did you caw us Yes voters Fockers, am fair mortificated, so wull the rest of the Wingers,as you know Wingers Fly High, an we dont need Fockers lol.
Basically both official campaigns were shite.
The referendum was The People vs The Media. No wonder Westminster would never devolve the BBC.
@ Thepnr (he at 9.46) Did you caw us Yes voters Fockers, am fair mortificated, so wull the rest of the Wingers,as you know Wingers Fly High, an we dont need Fockers lol.
I keep getting a Corrupted error message when I hit the Comment button, anybody else getting the same message.
@ronnie anderson
I keep getting a Corrupted error message when I hit the Comment button, anybody else getting the same message.
Not yet, must just be you that’s corrupted LOL
Oxford graduates head MSM, the military, industry, Civil service etc. The Unionist establlishment. They feed off each other. A corrupt Mafia. Oxford receives 2000 times more public funding than any other relevant educational institution.
Oxford graduates are now desperately trying to ensure damage limitation. To protect their marketable privileged advantage. Nae chance. Their hedonistic, deviation has been exposed. Oxford will lose prestige. The damage has been done. Their worldwide reputation has been damaged. A advantageous outcome to end the privilege
Gary45% – You’ve not thought this through. What you do is ASK a busy co-op staff member to find you the National. Every single day. You will soon find it in a more suitably prominent position, as opposed to being tucked between the Racing Post and the Oban Times.
But here’s the important bit: before you leave the shop, ‘accidently’ pick up several copies of the National. Then you can replace the extra ones, carefully covering the bin of Daily Rockets. THAT’S how you piss them off. :o)
I keep getting a Corrupted error message when I hit the Comment button, anybody else getting the same message.
I don’t get that. Still get time delay and have to input login ech time.
paulTgeist You lay aff Ma wee Chook, (cearc) some of us dont know how to archive, same as some of us dont know how to do Twitter F/Book, we focus on the INFORMATION therein.
Aye, right!
So you type the general gist of the “INFORMATION” instead.
There’s no excuse for helping to sustain the Unionist media.
I’ve seen certain people on here, yourself included, falsely accusing some people of being trolls but yet you say nothing to others, such as “heedtracker”, who constantly post direct links to Unionist shite-sheets.
Until these media outlets get the message that there will be consequences for their filth and lies then we will get nowhere.
That message is unlikely to strike home if we keep promoting and
buying into their rancid rags.
There is always more than one way to relay “INFORMATION”.
It doesn’t have to be done at a cost to us!
heedtracker @ 10:05 am
Morning Heedy!
You wrote: “And all to keep England’s control of their Scotland region. It worked sensibledave, this time.
Based upon your writings here over the months that I have visited, you are perhaps THE major culprit. Most of your invective is aimed at everyone south of the border – the UKOKs, the Britnats, the red Tories, the blue Tories, UKip, etc.
All well and good Heedy, and you are of course entirely within your rights to voice your case as you see fit.
But what does it achieve? What have you written that might convert a single “NO” voter?
And, BTW, you continue to be deluded that the “English” desperately want Scotland to remain in the Union and are fighting that cause.
We are not. We don’t really care that much.
Repeat after me – “Most English people want Scotland to have whatever the majority of Scottish voters want”.
Once you understand that it is the 55% that is your target audience then you can work on a strategy to convert them. Shouting insults at everyone south of the border achieves nothing – other than make you look slightly unhinged.
“I find your promotion of Daisley distasteful, even though you disassociate yourself from some of his views. I have not noticed your retweeting the announcement of new SNP Friends of Palestine, and I am inclined to believe you share his attitude to Palestinian rights. If I am wrong in this, I apologise.”
You are wrong in this.
Willie joins Kezia in allowing members to support indy, both attempting to avoid wipe out in 2016?
Just finished reading ‘Project Fear’ last few pages leave little doubt on which side of the fence Joe Pike sits, that said good read and definitely a warning to us Yessers to expect a more professional opposition the next time.
@ non sensible – If you don’t care why are you commenting? and attacking other posters to try and cause derision. Trolling Bored? Or just boring? The only unhinged bore.
Are Labour getting more nervous by the day.
link to archive.is
Once you understand that it is the 55% that is your target audience then you can work on a strategy to convert them. Shouting insults at everyone south of the border achieves nothing – other than make you look slightly unhinged.
“Slightly” isnt the word sensible. Anyway and as per, you completely dodge straight forward UKOK fraud like The Vow. If you’re right about the 55% that need convincing, why did you guys freak out with this one historic fraud alone?
England does control Scotland, near on 600 English MP’s dictate in Scotland but it is coming to an end though. Gordon Brown’s raging away about pooling and sharing resources is one the greatest lies ever told to Scotland by one of the great British lairs too, or why does HS2 stop at Leeds and so on?
Questions, questions, sensibledave, the only answer Scotland running by the people of Scotland, not a 600 MP’s from another country.
PS. sensible, read Prof Tomkinski of Slovenia here
link to notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com
Here Professor Smirky explains quite clearly that his Smith Commission fraud “gave” the sweaties PAYE control. And even if that “giving” alone does make it past the 600 MP’s of England, its all to do one thing, harm Holyrood, destroy SNP Scots.gov and damage Scottish economics.
At the very least, Prof Smirky’s honest about that.
A couple more O/T links
link to cfoi.org.uk
link to politicshome.com
Volkswagen shares have plunged more than 18% after US regulators found that some of its cars could manipulate official emissions tests.
link to archive.is
Sorry O/T
WINGS APPEAL
Needing the help of all you generous Wingers out there.
There is a wee Scottish business being run by one woman who is having a really hard time. Partner in hospital, caring for her mother looking after her family and trying to earn a living through her wee business.
Desperately in need of some support to help pay the bills.
You can buy some stuff from her ebay store here:
link to stores.ebay.co.uk
or contribute to their fundraiser:
link to gofundme.com
Your support will be most appreciated.
(BTW I have no connection with the business)
Craig P says:
Indeed. We have grassroots. They had the media.
Also, though, it has to be said that IndyRef1 was as much about DevoMax as independence. It was the elephant standing in the background. It was Yes’s Achilles Heel.
Next time! We, the people, will be stronger, and they will have their media which fewer and fewer voters believe. Perhaps most importantly of all, DevoMax will be dead and buried.
Regarding possible postal vote fiddling.
The answer is we will never know. I don’t know for sure if they were fiddled. There is doubt. Where there is doubt we can’t just dismiss it as impossible, or an urban myth.
Those that are utterly convinced the British State didn’t play a part in the result. Have a hell of a lot of trust, which I don’t have unfortunately.
So the answer is we can’t conclusively prove it either way.
The questions should be. Do you trust the Brits? Do you trust the Tories? Do you trust the electoral commision? Do you trust MI5. Do you trust Glasgow Council or any Labour led council? Do you think they would let us win in a tight fight?
“The National” newspaper is published by the Herald & Times Group in Glasgow.
The group is owned by Newsquest, based in Weybridge, England which is a subsidiary of Gannett, an American company based in Tysons Corner, Virginia.
All revenues received by any of Newsquest’s titles, funds main stream media support of the corrupt British Establishment.
Don’t be fooled by the token title. It is a cynical commercial decision to extract money from independent minded Scots.
I still think we are all suffering from a lack of perspective.
To credit Better Together, the newspapers, and the BBC with securing the victory is praise way beyond anything they deserve.
Better Together launched one sloppy and amateurish disaster after another to the point of ridicule and beyond. Their leadership was painfully inept, and wholly disfunctional in developing any pro Union momentum.
As for the media and BBC? Yes they carried some influence, but to do so they had to forfeit their integrity from root to tip to do it. They now stand discredited and in large part despised by a broad section of our society. In the time ahead, they will I promise you come to regret their loss of integrity, because no amount of money will buy it back for them.
Please, let us not dwell on these lacklustre non-entities. There are deeper reasons we need to examine about why so many Scots do not feel ready to embrace sovereign Independence, and we need to credit them with something more credible than being gullible enough to buy into the Unionist’s crooked message.
Let us circumvent the Unionist scare mobs and their puppet media, and do all we can to engage constructively with those amongst us who lack our confidence and belief. I don’t believe for a minute that Alistair Darling and Gordon Brown managed to connect with these people. We lost because we didn’t manage to connect with them either.
Don’t pick the YES movement apart. it doesn’t deserve it. We all make mistakes, but campaigns are intended to influence results, and warts and all, YES did develop a very real and vital momentum for change. It just wasn’t enough…. This time.
galamcennalath says:
22 September, 2015 at 11:21 am
Also, though, it has to be said that IndyRef1 was as much about DevoMax as independence. It was the elephant standing in the background. It was Yes’s Achilles Heel.
Next time! We, the people, will be stronger, and they will have their media which fewer and fewer voters believe. Perhaps most importantly of all, DevoMax will be dead and buried.
It was always going to be this way. People will accuse me of hindsight, but back in 2012 I honestly did think it was going to take two referenda to achieve independence. Admitedly, I got carried away last year, during those final, crazy two weeks of the campaign when I thought we might just scrape it, but reality quickly returned in the cold morning mist of September 19th.
The strong support for devomax was both a curse and a blessing to the independence movement. A curse, because it provided people with something to hold out for (mistakingly as many warned and has now transpired) and a blessing, because once the cat was out of the bag (and it now well and truly is), that WM would never/ could never agree to it, the supporters have only one natural home left – independence. Many people, even if they did not trust WM, had a physchological need to give them one last chance to deliver (as they promised during those final, panicked days before the 18th).
Don’t overestimate the power of the establishment and the MSM. They are not as clever and all-powerful as they think they are. Sure they had an effect, but IMO the people were not quite ready for independence last year. They are still not, but with 56 SNP MPs elected, they are getting there. The union continues to erode. Erosion is a slow process (apart from the odd event when a cliff collapses – cue May 2015!). All we need is patience and discipline. Scotland will become independent when the people are ready for it. Enjoy the ride – more unionist cliffs will collapse in spectacular fashion as we move ever closer to independence. It’s coming. 🙂
@sensibledave,
Perhaps the English public are not trying to keep us in the Union, but the establishment most certainly are.This is beyond dispute.
The media often sets the tone for the English public,creating the image rather than the truth in many cases. I personally have travelled near and far ,and met many English who love Scotland and the Scots, but have encountered many who had very little respect for our heritage,believing us to be a “kept people”
You really have to get rid of the tone of condescention you yourself utilise in your contributions, especially to people like Heedtracker.
You ard entitled to your opinion sensibledave,but so is he.
Ken500 10:50 am
You Wrote “If you don’t care why are you commenting? and attacking other posters to try and cause derision. Trolling Bored? Or just boring? The only unhinged bore.”
Troll? Really? No, just interested in politics Ken.
I note that you have nothing to say about the points I made.
Ask yourself these simple questions. Would a YES vote in Indy2 be more or less likely if:
a) SNP had more centrist economic policies (just like the rest of the Western World)
b) SNP were not unilateral disarmists
@ Capella same here on login I,ve even downloaded a login add-on for Firefox no worky.
To the rest of yous Wingers.
Please oh Please am doon oan ma knees begging you,s no tae feed the Trolls,the Pork Scratchings are finnished.
sensibledave says:
a) SNP had more centrist economic policies (just like the rest of the Western World)
b) SNP were not unilateral disarmists
a) The SNP are centrist in terms of economic polices they fit close to the middle of the modern western democracies. Its the USA and the UK that are out on a limb.
b) Not renewing trident is not disarmist. The SNP supports a well funded (better than UK) range of conventional forces.
Do you think they would let us win in a tight fight?
If SNP hold on next May, with ScotBrit unionists wiped out in Westminster, its a stalemate. The only way out, the next and last referendum.
If the play UKOK dirty, its only going to be the shooting down of what’s left of snatcher thatcher/red toryboy economics aka, Crash Gordon and the Flipper.
eg, having tried to terrorise Scotland out of devo-max for a year now, with the hellish burden that is Scots oil and gas, what’s been left out by these chancers today?
link to theguardian.com
Heedy 11.05
You wrote “England does control Scotland, near on 600 English MP’s dictate in Scotland but it is coming to an end though. Gordon Brown’s raging away about pooling and sharing resources is one the greatest lies ever told to Scotland by one of the great British lairs too, or why does HS2 stop at Leeds and so on?
Westminster, made up of MPs elected by constituents throughout the UK runs the whole of the UK Heedy. Yes, of course, English MPs form the largest group. Sometimes those English MPs are, by majority, Labour MPs. It doesn’t matter that the my constituency, and those on its borders, have never voted Labour and never will – being in the UK means that we sometimes had a Labour government.
With respect to Scottish Independence though, can you explain to me, a voter that lives in the South East of England, what it is that you want me to do to help your cause – other than be part of a society that held a referendum for Scottish voters to say whether they want Independence or not?
You refuse to get the message. It is the 55% that you need to convince – but you just shout at everyone else other than the 55% (but I don’t think shouting at them will help your cause).
The solution lies in the need for a “disconnect” between SNP politics – and Scottish Independence. Whilst the two go hand in hand, then it will be a struggle to get over the line – because so many Scots disagree with SNP politics to the point that they prefer to stay in the Union than be subject to them.
The “truth” that dare not speak its name, so to speak, Heedy.
Re The national, which is the best/only pro indy paper we’ve got.
Yesterday, Kev McKenna wrote a piece whch was all about promoting SLAB, coming home etc.
In the same article he threw up the usual nonsense about the SNP’s poor performance with the NHS, PoliceScotland and educaion, which I know are not perfect.
In other words, he was repeating SLAB material.
If this continues I will stop buying the National.
That of course came after the SHs demolition of HoF on Saturday
Anagach 12:03 pm
sensibledave says:
You wrote ” a) The SNP are centrist in terms of economic polices they fit close to the middle of the modern western democracies. Its the USA and the UK that are out on a limb.
b) Not renewing trident is not disarmist. The SNP supports a well funded (better than UK) range of conventional forces.
… I know that is what you, and many others here think Anargach! That is not in question.
You havent answered my question though! “Would a YES vote in Indy2 be MORE or LESS likely if …..
The “truth” that dare not speak its name, so to speak, Heedy
Again with the dodge on the very fundamental questions, like The Vow fraud.
Couple of points
Yes, of course, English MPs form the largest group. Sometimes those English MPs are, by majority, Labour MPs
Your largest group sensible, is near on 600 MP’s, in another country, dictating socio economics that have clearer made south east of England very very rich, while many in their Scotland pay the highest price, in blighted ruined lives basically sensibledave, while their SLabour MP’s got rich and fat.
And as we can see from the establishment melt down over Corbyn, Labour are no different from the Toryboys.
That’s what this all about sensible. We YES voters have had enough of English socio economics. Its not personal, or not completely personal, no matter how hard you britnats try to make it so.
Its just common sense and common decency. Or to keep it as simple as possible for you sensibledave, how do you know I’m not English.
Scotland wants devo-max. If you don’t give it to Scotland, you will lose your Scotland region for ever and ever, amen.
Heedy 21.31
You wrote: “We YES voters have had enough of English socio economics. Its not personal, or not completely personal, no matter how hard you britnats try to make it so.”
I am really not trying to be contentious here Heedy. But I really do know, you know, we all know – that YES voters have had enough of “English socio economics”. I get that!
The problem is that that YES voters did not, and probably still don’t, form the majority of Scottish voters. So, on another site, some Scot is writing that their Unionist views (whyever the hold them) form the majority view in Scotland and they do not want to be dictated to by pro Independence lobby groups constantly claiming the moral and political high ground and constantly demanding another referendum. They would argue that democracy, as demonstrated in the referendum, gave the answer to what the people of Scotland want – not you – wouldn’t they?
Convince them Heedy. Its the only way. Shouting “foul”, “its not fair”, Nasty UKOK, Nasty Britnats, Nasty red/blue Tory, etc – isn’t, IMHO, going to do it. Did anyone ever win an argument just by insulting their opponent’s views, methods, motivations, morals, etc?
Heedy
… forgot to respond to the Vow “dodge” issue.
In PMQs last week, Angus Robertson asked the same question. I genuinely don’t know which elements of the Vow, the SNP are saying are not being delivered?
So Tory money, Labour troops, but really the whole thing was a result of media propaganda, and interference from businesses and external politicians / celebs.
All in all, had it been a Scotland-only campaign, with no help from outside Scotland, Yes would easily have won.
@Onwards says: 22 September, 2015 at 4:41 am:
“An older generation had the same old media feeding them propaganda, day in day out.”
First let me correct the misconception that is so blithely propagated so freely by some that the elderly are the only ones brainwashed by the media.
I’m nearly 80 and I was aware of the broadcasters methods as far back as the late 1940s. The conclusion being that anyone must be personally compliant and unaware of the media brainwashing to be subject to it. Today’s teens have thus been subjected to a biased media all their lives too.
In fact, because of the modern addiction to electronics, the modern teens to 30s Scot may well spend the bulk of their waking hours connected to some form of the media.
As for the dead tree media this changed perceptibly when the self-control of the press moved from the NUJ to the proprietors to, “The Press Complaints Commission”, (which closed on 8 September 2014 and has been replaced by), “The Independent Press Standards Organisation”.
Before all that the newspapers just reported the news and any bias in any particular newspaper was confined to the editorial and well known columnists. Woe betide an editor or owner who attempted to make a reporter lie or distort the news when the NUJ controlled the newspaper industry.
So, having burst that wee bubble, let’s look at specifics. Here’s an example of how the unaware reader misses the real implication by just not analysing what they have just read.
Here’s part on one of todays news items: –
Now my instant take, (besides the word redundancy in, “£13bn pounds), was, “That’s £6.5 of Scottish assets stripped from Scotland”.
Obviously the BBC thought to imply how generous of Westminster to allow Scotland to keep 50% of Scottish assets. Note they didn’t mention the certain fact that 50% of English fracking most certainly won’t be coming to Scotland under the precept of, “Better Together”.
So what do you think the propaganda compliant reader would make of such a news item? Could it be, “£6.5bn? that’s a great deal for Scotland”?
Just thought you all might like to know that this week that’s another four people I’ve convinced a YES vote next time is in their best interests not NO.
How’s everyone else getting on?
When if possible are the issues with posts going to be solved on this website?
I enjoy reading the articles here and the subsequent posts but I would also like to participate in these posts also but the last few months have been pretty bad what with posts taking ages to appear or as was the case yesterday not appearing at all.
As I have said, I enjoy the articles but this issue is making for a stifled comments section and I am sure their are lots of others in the same position, wishing to contribute their own views but being unable to or having to wait until their comment appears by which time everyone has moved onto the next article that appears.
This is a problem which is spoiling an otherwise excellent website.
@twathater says: 21 September, 2015 at 10:46 pm
” … I would have thought that the £150,000 could have been put to better use, maybe even helping poor Scottish families to feed, clothe,or even keep a roof over their head.
I am disgusted at this money being given away, and the persons involved and manner in which this gift came about to me is rather questionable.
So perhaps, twathater, you would prefer the SG should just have allowed the company to take T in the Park to one of those large English theme parks, who I’m sure would have offered to help with the removal costs.
T in the Park attracts a great deal of money into local businesses. I’m sure a concerned person like you can find an estimate of just how much on the internet. Whatever else the SNP government is, it most certainly always puts Scotland’s best interests first.
Like they did with that, (Ahem!), great white elephant Hospital the Unionist parties branch offices are so alert to on our excellent Scottish media. Or the unified Police Scotland in such crisis that the crime figures are at an all time low and the crimes solved rate sinking like a stone thrown into Loch Ness.
You sound just like the average Labour party persons who keep on claiming the SG should be spending money on this that and the other but never seem to consider that to do so means taking cash away from something else. Or like they scream for the freeze on Council tax to be removed to allow Unionist controlled councils to ramp up the Council tax but never mention that the Council tax is only a tiny part of the income the council has and the vast bulk of it is provided to the council by the SG grants
@Paula Rose
Well done you!
My report card states as it always has done. “Must try harder”
I’m sure that’s the same for most. Tiring just waiting for round II.
Did anyone ever win an argument just by insulting their opponent’s views, methods, motivations, morals, etc?
Sensibledave, you do this all the time on WoS, and youre not alone old bean.
Anyway, thanks for totaly ducking the Vow fraud. You asked what do you want, devo-max sensibledave.
Incidentally sensibledave, I cant speak for anyone else but i have never disliked anyone with different politics from my own. Its something all ukok britnats out there should keep in mind as they rattle about online, bullshitting for teamGB.
@ John King, when I wrote about a “more feisty official Yes campaign”, I was meaning that in IndyRef2, official Yes needs to be more pugnacious.
They will need to be more ready to go for the jugular when they attack lies and smears coming from Better Together. BT will need to be attacked, so they are on the defensive, on the back foot, off balance.
Official Yes can go on the offensive with a smile on its face, but in NEEDS to go on the offensive.
I am not prepared to have my right to a Scottish passport taken away from me by people, on my side, who are too meek to convince pensioners that WM is lying to them.
No more Mr Nice Guy in official Yes.
When we want nice, we put Nicola Sturgeon on tv, or new MPs Dr Philippa Whitford and Tommy Sheppard.
For me, in IndyRef2, official Yes needs to get active early, needs to go on the offensive, and STAY on the offensive.
I’m tired of being a citizen of Porkistan, ruled by a corrupt and decadent elite.
@ Paula Rose, well done and “Madam, we salute your Indyfatigability” 😉
Re X_Sticks earlier post:
You can buy some stuff from her ebay store here:
link to stores.ebay.co.uk
or contribute to their fundraiser:
link to gofundme.com
Your support will be most appreciated.
Had a visit to the ebay store and seriously you can buy some pretty attractive Independent minded stuff there.
Have just done so myself, all in a good cause. Have a look, I doubt if you will be disappointed.
O/T re removing Stains from sink – take one dishwater tablet and dampen it slightly then use it to scour the stains directly, or if feeling lazy leave it to steep in about 1″ of water in the sink overnight.
Really bad news about the National’s editor, will watch keenly and stop buying as soon as there’s evidence of their bullshit. One step forward.
Hope over fear.
John kerr 7.30am. Agree with your post john, even down here in lancashire i dont go near asda or waitrose, and a few more. ( lidl and aldi for me now). I wouldnt give those scaremongering barstewards a dime of my money.
So the BT campaign was a balls-up, with Blair Van Winkle hardly able to crawl out of his scratcher and McTernan is a mad Chelsea head hunter?… yet they still won.
The BBC and the press did all the work….there was no grass roots ‘NO’ campaign….apart from the OO and Glasgow rangers thugs rampaging on cue after it was all over.
So what does that tell us?….Well without some either control or fair right of reply in media terms we won’t win next time either.
Without a grass roots led campaign….no dead wood suits like Jenkins monotoning empty platitudes….more direct attacks on the monstrosity that is Westminster and British rule.
The SNP sidelined RIC and Wings….big mistake..we needed unity and the left sidelined Tommy Sheridan who brought in thousands of first time voters.
As Tam Jardine in particular, and others have stated we have to address the real issues of currency, pensions and a written constitution clearly and unequivocably…and publicly…but we’re back to the media again.
The truth is, there are a helluva lot of hard line selfish bastards out there who care nothing for their country or fellow citizens..they’re consumers without compassion or allegiance. And then there’s the adherents to Britain..either through misguided brainwashed pig-headedness(sorry!) or simple undiluted bigotry.
But there are hundreds of thousands labour voters who are there to be convinced….finally that change has got to come…but we need clear straight forward truth of the financial state of Scotland’s ability to survive.
Many times on the doorstep….I had people who had no belief that we are a sustainable country…never mind a rich one….why should they?…where in the YES campaign was this ever made abundantly clear?
Ivor McKee was the only voice that I heard who knocked ‘NO’ experts into a crooked hat on economic numbers…if only we had more like him.
Bill Clinton vanquished Bush with the phrase ‘It’s the economy stupid’….maybe we need more of this approach to win over the ‘Fainthearts’ to join us ‘Bravehearts’?
Steady up Daisy
“take one dishwasher,dampen, then use it to scour the stains or leave it to steep in an inch of water overnight”.
I’m the dishwasher in this house, don’t you give Mrs Dram any ideas, especially sitting me in the sink overnight.
Big silly smiley thingy ????
Been away to Oban since Saturday and came home about teatime downloaded the book from Amazon to PC. Bleary eyed but finished it.
Brought back many memories and was an intriguing read. I’ll sleep on it probably thinking about McDougal looking for his lost phone. 🙁