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Wings Over Scotland

What we stand to lose

Posted on September 05, 2017 by

A Scot living in the EU, and an EU national living in Scotland, discuss the implications of the Brexit being forced on Scotland against its will by the UK government.

The clock is ticking.

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    1. 05 09 17 12:57

      What we stand to lose | speymouth

    208 to “What we stand to lose”

    1. Fiona McGregor says:

      i have just received a panelbase survey this morning where one of the questions was would you prefer a) an independent scotland outside of the UK, b) a devolved Scotland inside the UK or c) Scotland in the UK but without a devolved parliament.
      First time I have ever seen this being even suggested as an option – deeply concerning that they should be asking this question!!

    2. bobajock says:


      So may reasons to leave the UK, join the EU as an independent state, and forget about the sad mess south of the border.

    3. heedtracker says:

      We’ve been lied to, uninformed and misinformed about the EU, by all the UK media, led by tory BBC, for decades. Now its all over. Its not a coincidence.

    4. Brian Hill says:

      I’ve just spent a week in France. I was reminded just how many practices on the continent we’ve not picked up in the UK. Local recycling is better, mobile data coverage more widely available, plus better public transport and local services like police, fire and rescue. Then, crossing borders, I saw how easy it is to travel as an EU citizen. Across the barriers I could see the ‘other passports’ in long queues some waiting to be processed, others being security-checked. That, I said to myself, will be the fate of UK travellers very soon and I don’t want to be among them.

    5. paul gerard mccormack says:

      Seeing as the pathological superiority of the British has ****ed up wherever they’ve put their grubby snouts, I for one, after getting all the paperwork together, have eventually submitted my application for a foreign birth registration with the Republic of Ireland with a view to obtaining an EU passport.

      I am lucky that I can do so. I don’t think Johnny foreigner is going to take too kindly to these buffoons.

    6. Street Andrew says:

      Another fine piece of work from Phantom.

      I don’t know how to put a link on here, but there’s a very interesting MIT lecture on utube by Noam Chomsky ‘Racing to the Precipice’. (dated Sept. 1st)

      He discusses the current state of America; Brexit will condemn the UK to ‘closer union’ with the USA. It’s not a good place to be going. (it’s a long considered piece not a soundbite snippet)

      Makes Indy look ever more rational, ever more necessary.

    7. Joemcg says:

      I would like to see the implications of holding the vote before and after Brexit happens in black and white. Are we going to be at a severe disadvantage regards the machinations? Will EU citizens definitely be banned from voting? Could the UK government put Holyrood under threat and possibly on the line in the question? Will they even allow us to hold a vote? Nothing’s been clarified.

    8. Terry says:


      That panel base survey is deeply worrying. Make no mistake – if we are out of Europe Westminster will end holyrood. They wouldn’t dare just now as it was pressure by the eu that forced the uk to establish devolution. Direct rule is on their agenda as they can’t afford to lose our resources nor our own Scottish lairds their land – they are still being bought and sold for English gold.

      And there’s nothing we can do about it – bar a revolution. And nobody wants that. Snp has no choice but to leave the next referendum down to the brexit wire – and then go for it before 2021.

    9. Desimond says:

      That’s very scary indeed.
      Could be the Planting of the Seeds and before long we will hear Anas, Ruth and Wullie all championing for their own destruction no doubt whilst eyeing a place in the Lords.

      Its getting like one of those Arnie MObile Strike adverts…chaos going off everywhere at an alarming rate. Now its No Confidence likely for Theresa next year…its a downward spiral.

      The “Scottish Government 10 year Plan” should just read

      Year 1 – Declare we are leaving
      Year 2 – Vote to Leave
      Year 3/4 – Leave
      Year 5-10 – Take in English Refugees…

    10. Ken500 says:

      Jardine on Sky fake News. In denial It was the LibDems supporting the Tories which caused the mess in the first place. Have the LibDems been charged with electoral fraud yet? Why do people vote for these people in Scotland? That is the mystery.

    11. David says:

      Th trouble is trying to find any balance or nuance in debates, particularly in the political sphere. Its all emotional thinking with the more politically right of center falling prey to a kind of narrow nationalism and the left of center being unable to accept some of the major criticisms of EU policy lately.

      Ive lived in the EU for years and anyone in my position could probably tear Nigel Farage a new arsehole in a debate because weve had to register, find work, organise health insurance etc and basically experience the opposite of the rhetoric of what the man spouts.

      Brexiteers would have you believe that EU countries are vassal states of some powerful conquering empire. Of course, it helps their belief in such things that most of them have never really lived outside of their own little bubble.

      However – their are good reasons for EU citizens to be upset. The migrant (not refugee) situation is foremost. I know it upsets the pathologically altruistic to say that deeply religious 3rd world people who have diametrically opposite world views to the ones we hold, such as a basic human rights, might end up causing a problem, but its a fact that Islam as it is taught in the 3rd world (and even more developed countries) is simply NOT compatible with western values and a cultural clash is inevitable. I am speaking also from personal experience on the subject. This issue is the biggest self imposed social problem the EU has created for itself and the sooner those of left-leaning politics accept it then the sooner a solution can appear. Then we could go on about the economics of the EU which is somewhat of a joke.

      In short its a mess and im not sure there is a leader in any of the major western governments who is truly competent and there is no reason to believe any are on the horizon. Stability is not going to be a factor of our lives in the years to come.

      As a last point – anyone who thinks Brexit will not be used as a means to drag the UK towards a neoliberal future of extremely limited (if any) welfare and social services is a total fool.

    12. Grant says:

      So I am a Scot, born in Dundee.
      Lived the last 20+ years in the Netherlands.
      Last March ahead of the Bexit vote, I took Dutch Nationality.
      Proud to be a Scot and a Nederlander.

    13. Breastplate says:

      Well done Rosie, Ellen and Phantom Power yet again.
      For the record though, I’m not fed up with referendums and think we should have an independence referendum every time the SNP and pro independent parties win a majority at Holyrood.
      Every single time without fail and an extra one if Westminster interfere before, during or after it.

    14. Proud Cybernat says:

      Well done, Phantom Films. Another brilliant addition to your ever growing library.

      This Brexit disaster largely caused by this…

    15. Ken500 says:

      There will be another GE soon. Rees-Mogg being touted as next Tory leader. The rocky horror show. If that doesn’t get the SNP vote out. Nothing will. Vote SNP/SNP vote for Independence.

    16. Brian Powell says:

      We did look at the UK Government, Tory or Labour, and that was one reason why we wanted to run our own country.

    17. Scott says:

      Daily Politics just now a right SNPBAD from S.Smith but we should not be surprised,its getting beyond a joke now.

      That was a good listen have marked it so can listen again sometime.

    18. Macart says:

      You get who and what you vote for.

      There is always a cost. A very human cost to political choice. Being led by media opinion, especially the establishment narrative perpetuated and disseminated by the overly invested mainstream media of the UK, has consequences.

      Those two young ladies pretty much nailed it top to bottom.

      Well said on their part and another keeper from Phantom Power.

    19. heedtracker says:

      DR Remain now? Who really knows with UKOK hackdom these days. Nice photo of Lord Ian Murray OBE though.

    20. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Grant.

      Do you know ‘Zeek the Freak’?

    21. heedtracker says:

      UKOK zone fades to grey, in the EU.

      Next 30 UKOK years are going to be rather dull, as beeb gimps rant and rave, rule Britnatia, SNP bad, British Empire 2.0, England centre of civilised world, royal sprogs, football. To be fair, beeb gimps alone will have almost certainly eradicated the SNP completely in half a teamGB decade, is the plan, unless…


    22. I got an anti Brexit leaflet through my door on Sunday and I nearly fainted, as it is only usually the local SNP who leaflet in our area. This leaflet was produced by a London based organisation. The thought struck me that pennies must be dropping down south if they are starting to mobilise.

    23. CameronB Brodie says:

      “This paper considers a philosophy of management for a society and its state institutions: openness and democracy.”

      ‘Brexit’ and the Political Ideals of the Open Society

    24. heedtracker says:

      Jim Finlayson says:
      5 September, 2017 at 12:43 pm
      I got an anti Brexit leaflet through my door on Sunday

      Leavers are being softened up for EFTA UK zone. No doubt EFTA members will relish a future of being told what to do by UK planet toryboy, their demands, their special UK only deals, their flouncing, their rule Britannia exceptionalism, the queen opening shit…

      Only real tory UK EFTA snag, johnny foreigner will still be able to come and go as he likes, and that’s not “taking control” of UK borders.

      But that’s what massed ranks of beeb gimps are for, smoothing over the tory cracks.

    25. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Jim Finlayson @ 12:43,

      It’s funded by the London money markets, I reckon. They don’t want to lose their “passporting” rights and with it a considerable amount of euro business to Frankfurt and Paris.

      I suspect it’s the same sources who funded the LibDems in the last UKGE so liberally that they could afford to “not distribute” £93k of leaflets in East Dumbartonshire, for example. Who ever heard of the FibDems previously having that kind of dosh to casually throw away?

      But instead of fighting Brexit in Scotland, the FibDems squandered it all on opposing the SNP, who are the most effectively pro-EU of all the parties here.

      That’s how mad it gets in North Britain these days. Somebody should tell London. They clearly don’t have a clue about what’s been happening here.

    26. Robert Graham says:

      As the BBC in Scotland has appointed itself the official government of Scotland this is a ideal project for them to promote they have the eyes and ears of the public .
      The untended consequences that are slowly presenting themselves with withdrawal from the EU should be made clear to their audience , after all they are there to report news aren’t they ? .
      This government organisation have changed their remit , going from reporting , to manufacturing the news with their own agenda, their own particular slant meant to influence public opinion.
      North Korea could learn from this lot they are masters and have had years of experience and still the public are blind and deaf to what they are doing on a daily basis .

    27. Stoker says:

      Another great short film to the collection, thank yous!

      Fiona McGregor wrote on 5 September, 2017 at 11:24 am
      “i have just received a panelbase survey this morning where one of the questions was would you prefer a) an independent scotland outside of the UK, b) a devolved Scotland inside the UK or c) Scotland in the UK but without a devolved parliament.
      First time I have ever seen this being even suggested as an option – deeply concerning that they should be asking this question!!”

      Also, look at how option one has been formulated, no mention of being independent within the EU. We need to get out of this abusive UK marriage as soon as or face decades long shit storm.

    28. One_Scot says:

      Fantastic video, thank you to all involved in making it.

    29. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. I forgot my N.B., which was that the author obviously did not experience the indyref in 2014. I think they may have had a different view of the democratic openness of the event, if they had.

    30. manandboy says:

      On the British Establishment’s horizon lies the UK reconstituted as ONE SINGLE COUNTRY.

      To stop it vote only SNP. Join SNP. Support Independence.

      Become politically active. Start by cancelling your TV licence and remove all sources of British brainwashing from your life.
      Thats how it will be after Independence, but you can start being independent NOW.

    31. MJack says:

      We might loose foreign workers who would now vote YES in an Indyref2 but we may well get in return ExPat Scots who will vote YES next time.

    32. Dan Huil says:

      Scotland’s future is in closer ties with Europe, whether fully inside the EU or not. Scotland’s future must not involve Westminster.

    33. heedtracker says:

      The toryboy what defeaterised Angus Robertson. No wonder the interviewee up there is wondering about not coming back. What a toryboy this clown is and once again, take a very big bow BBC Scotland gimps.

    34. manandboy says:

      Moving around quite a bit on holiday recently I was struck by the number of places twinned with towns overseas, mainly in Europe.

      The UK should be twinned with North Korea. With both relying on propaganda and brainwashing they’d be a perfect match.

    35. Dan Huil says:

      @manandboy 1:34pm

      Colonel Blimp is twinned with North Korean leader.

    36. Kat hamilton says:

      Becoming more obvious by the day our future lies as an independent nation in the eu..I long for the day when I receive my scottish passport…that will confirm everything I believe and hold dear….would be heartening to see some polling figures showing some or any shift toward yes occurring…

    37. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      MJack @ 13:13,

      Watch the video again. Like Rosie there, many Scots ex-pats immigrants living elsewhere in the EU have made their lives where they are, and aren’t coming home.

      Regrettably, since it makes us all the poorer. But why on earth would they exchange the high standard of living and stability that they already have for the utter uncertainty of a complete Brexit omnishambles?

      It’s up to us in Scotland to get out of this insane train-crash of a UK and aspire to achieve the same standards and stability as Rosie has. Then some might actually feel able to come home.

    38. Robert Graham says:

      O/T – BBC Scotlands buzz words for the day ‘ the day job ‘ aye straight from Ruthies mooth .
      The report on The inquiry into the Edinburgh tram fiasco manages to omit any reference to Labour not a single reference , similarly the BBCs obvious omission when reporting on Labours involvement in the PFI school debacle, BBC in Scotland presents and censor everything we see and hear, how very obliging of them, a obvious agenda aye we know what they are doing it’s a pity that the rest of the country are oblivious to what’s going on , and going on daily .

    39. Muscleguy says:

      Boy are we fortunate to have Phantom Power films. The things they are producing are fantastic and why MSM hasn’t picked up on them is nothing short of scandalous.

    40. manandboy says:

      In just seven years of Tory rule we’ve seen a shift from ‘interesting times’ to ‘dangerous times’.

      In Scotland we’ve seen the emergence of the Unionist Alliance party and the gradual erasing of the Conservative, Labour and LibDems.

      We’ve seen the Unionists heavily funded unlawfully by hedge funds, big business and by wealthy and sometimes secretive individuals, leading to illegal saturation political campaigning come election time.

      In Scotland we live daily with 99% of news coverage in all media being provided by the British State with a Tory Government which has totally abandoned the idea of acting in good faith, particularly in its relations with the European Union and Scotland.

      We’ve seen a massive increase in the wealth of the elite 1% and a culture of austerity imposed on the rest.

      What next you might wonder. More, but worse is to come.

      The ‘interesting times’ are well and truly over. Only the dangerous times lie ahead.

      The era of leaving everything to the Government is over. The UK government cannot be trusted to act in the interests of its citizens. This Government will only act in the interests of itself, its friends, and above all of the British Establishment.
      While we watch the Great British Bake-off.

      While you still can, join the SNP, support Independence, buy a saltire, go see the bridge the Scots built, grow some pride in your country, for we live in dangerous times – and you may not have your country for much longer. The pace of change is increasing.

      Don’t wait till it’s too late.

    41. manandboy says:

      Dan Huil says:

      “Colonel Blimp is twinned with North Korean leader.”

      Love it, Dan – they could so easily be twins! Brilliant.

    42. Tatu3 says:

      manandboy @ 2.10.
      Well said.

    43. Many of those who voted to leave the EU, must now be beginning to realise just how much they are going to
      lose in terms of not just their standard of living.

      But also the level of public services they currently
      enjoy such as the NHS treatment, when EU doctors and nurses return to their own countries.

    44. yesindyref2 says:

      @Fiona McGregor
      It used to be one of the questions in the annual Scottish Social Attitudes Survey, and got from 15% to start wit I think, down to 10%, as low as 5% and back to 8%. I think they stopped asking. But I think support for that may have risen, so it will be an interesting one to see the result of.

      Implications if it was say back up to 15%? Well, possibly good, as those who want devolution within the UK might feel threatened enough to move to a YES. Who knows?

    45. yesindyref2 says:

      Not sure if Nana / Smallaxe has posted a link to Richard Murphy’s latest

      It’s interesting because what seems to be a reply by someone from FoAI to Murphy’s take is very defensive, over-defensive, which in itself leads full credence to Murphy’s take about accruals / economic activity.

      GERS has been improving its methodology, and breakdown particularly non-attributable spending on behalf of Scotland, year by year, which is good. But it does look to me as though they didn’t even look at the basis the whole thing was done on to see if it was right or wrong at the top, before even taking data to process. Which would be a major major error, a complete design flaw. In aircraft carrier terms, using a navigation and propulsion system from one island to direct bomb runs from the other island!

    46. yesindyref2 says:

      Heh heh, or trying to use an OPV to fly a squadron of F35-Bs.

      I’ll shut up now.

    47. yesindyref2 says:

      Having trouble taking off Wing Commander?

      (I lied)

    48. call me dave says:

      Sturgeon economy statement: Sounds good so far.

    49. Golfnut says:

      O/t help. Someone posted 2/3 weeks ago a bibliography of SG record in gov, anyone have link to it, if I remember it was much more comprehensive than SNP site. Challenged a Britnat on Facebook to provide a similar breakdown for Westminster by 6pm. Any help appreciated.

    50. Valerie says:

      Great vid – again from Phantom Power. Do what you can peeps to support them. They really are class.

      Watching Nicola in Holyrood, setting out the new programme. She is impressive, as always, and using lots of ambitious language.

    51. call me dave says:

      Sturgeon is setting out a series of measures which is a direct challenge to those in Westminster and the Unionist parties in Scotland.

      She acts as if Scotland is a different country to that one darn Sarf… Oh wait! 🙂

      That’s more like it.

    52. Bob Mack says:

      Nicola outlining an outstanding programme for government just now. Miles ahead of the rest of the UK in every aspect. I wonder how long it will be before Westminster come up with the old “We were going to do that too”.

    53. Macart says:

      Probably a thing worth pointing out to the ‘proud Scot buts’ out there in light of the reality this video highlights.

      Their world looks a wee bit smaller today.

      Your ‘proud Scot but’ is perfectly happy to hand someone else the responsibility of running the country they reside in. They are happy to define themselves by another’s yardstick. They are happy to deny you the right to define yourself and in fact set about telling you why you are particularly and uniquely unsuited to making decisions for yourself.

      Yet for all they live in (by their lights) this appalling country of Scotland, governed by the worstest separatist ever and from the worstest parish council building ever to call itself a parliament, they refuse to leave to live in a more acceptable country. Y’know a country with a proper grown up government like…, like the next door neighbour for instance. It’s a mystery right enough.

      But OK! Let’s go with this idea that someone, anyone, else is better suited to running Scotland than Scotland’s population.

      By most standards our near neighbours on the continent seem to be doing just peachy, yes? Stable economies. Stable democracies. Running well up tables of societal, political and economic satisfaction, yet strangely self governing (scratches head). Spooky, but true.

      Your ‘proud Scot but’ supports a political union with the widest of democratic deficits between its ‘partners'(heavily favouring only one nation). One of the widest rich/poor gaps in the developed world. An economy which seems to limp from one crisis to the next, favouring only a small percentage of its population. A currency in freefall and a legislative body that has actually been named by the UN as an abuser of human rights. One that puts its own population in harms way, through both legislation and public narrative for its own advantage. So why that particular union and not another more beneficial one? If you wish to eradicate your own nationality, culture and rights in favour of some other. Why not make it a successful one at least?

      Like I said, it’s a mystery. Or rather, no. No, it’s not and they should be ashamed. What we’ve gone through to date as a population and the even more desperate societal, political and economic situation we face today and tomorrow?

      That’s on them.

      Personally, I’m pretty much done apologising for being alive. If you choose to live in and contribute to an independent, self determining Scotland, then be a proud Scot.

      No ifs or buts.

    54. Bob Mack says:

      @Proud Cybernat.

      There is no such thing as a “proud Scots but”. They are parasites living and feeding off a host to which they have become accustomed, too scared to leave in case they cannot find another on which to live and survive. They have been neutered through fear and insecurity, and in some cases downright stupidity and bigotry. There is no limit to the rationale people give to remain subservient to the UK.

      How absurd is it to demean yourself to promote another.? It lacks reason,but they do it nonetheless. It is a long battle ,but it is capable of being won.

    55. Bob Mack says:

      Sorry,addressed to wrong thread.

    56. schrodingers cat says:

      kinda agree with her about indyref2

      right now is probably not the right time

      but announcing indyref2 is back on the table and setting a date is critical, worthy of a discussion thread

      it is a very important decision which we cant afford to make a mistake

      my gut feeling is tommy shepards, after next holyrood election idea, strikes me as too far in the future, along with other issues surrounding getting a mandate again (less people turn out for elections than for referendums etc)

      so that leaves only 2 options, before or after we brexit.

      i’d love to see a full scottish opinion poll, these have been very rare in recent months.

      if stu is tied up, maybe scot goes pop could do one? how much do they cost?

    57. Andy-B says:

      The really sad thing is, that there are so many Scots in Scotland, who in my opinion, would rather see Scotland’s economy severely damaged than vote for independence, it’s madness.

    58. Vestas says:

      @ schrodingers cat 3:23 pm :

      “i’d love to see a full scottish opinion poll, these have been very rare in recent months.

      if stu is tied up, maybe scot goes pop could do one? how much do they cost?”

      Last time I nagged Stu about running polls he said £8-10k…

    59. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 15:23,

      While a properly-conducted poll can be instructive, it shouldn’t be an excuse for stalling, and funking the moment to act. Worth remembering that Alex Salmond took up the indyref1 challenge when the polls were showing something like 23% support, and took it to within an ace of winning. We haven’t slipped much if anything since then, and we don’t need a poll to tell us that. Meanwhile the Brexit slow-mo train crash is just beginning.

      We can’t afford to wait for the proverbial 60% to appear effortlessly out of thin air.

      It takes political leadership to recognise that a situation is pregnant for success, and go full tilt for it.

      Brexit is such a situation. An opportunity the likes of which we are unlikely to see again. As you say, timing is all. However, waiting until after Brexit has happened will be too late, and not just because we will lose all the resident EU voters. The moment will have passed and ordinary people will just lapse into passive acceptance.

      We really need to recapture the initiative. Indyref2 has already started, it’s just that there’s not too much to see right now, alas.

      Except these videos, that is, which are excellent. We really need to get these seen by many more people. Local screenings for communities…?

    60. manandboy says:

      Inspiration, perspiration, exhilaration.

      Isn’t that how it works?

      A little more inspiration, a good bit more perspiration and the exhilaration of Independence is sure to follow.
      With a little help from friends.

    61. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @manandboy –

      Hear hear.

      Listening to the Yoon response to the FM’s speech (e.g. that fud Tomkins, right now…) it’s easy to become disheartened – if only we could find a way of transforming their relentless whingeing and negativity into something positive, we’d have an endless supply of fuel for the foreseeable future.


    62. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 15:59,

      A situation ripe for satire, I would suggest, Ian.

      Mockery is much under-rated as a political force. It reaches people that worthy screeds of text don’t.

    63. Proud Cybernat says:

      FM announces Scottish Investment Bank to be establishment & petrol & diesel cars to be banned in Scotland by 2032.

      Gawn yersel, Nicola.

    64. Dr Jim says:

      The last Scottish social attitude survey on Independence was @ 47% for says Alex Salmond

      Prof John Curtice runs that survey apparently so it’s probably close to being correct says Alex

      Me I think it’s more, but that’s me

    65. Famous15 says:

      Bell Pottinger the dubious PR firm has long tentacles. Former employees corrupted by this company are seeking employment with politicians in the UK

      If you hear of any politician employing such vermin make it known to the world.

    66. Robert Peffers says:

      @David says: 5 September, 2017 at 12:12 pm:

      “Th trouble is trying to find any balance or nuance in debates, particularly in the political sphere.”

      Absolute claptrap of the worst possible kind, David.

      Not even worth any debate on Wings.

    67. Ian Kirkwood says:

      I have just become a Swedish citizen. Was hoping to have Scottish citizenship by now, hopefully I will get there before too long.
      Great wee film, I do hope that it will reach a wide audience. We need to make that happen on a broad scale.

    68. lenny hartley says:

      o/t Young Tories fighting amongst themselves, all good, but looks like May is on a shoogly peg and mog is the one being promoted by the brexiteers to take over. All good for us 🙂

    69. Dan Huil says:

      Things are definitely, if slowly, building up towards indyref2. The SG will, I’m sure, increase the pressure on britnat brexit incompetence. Even britnat media scum will not be able to ignore it.

    70. geeo says:

      BBC Daily Politics returned today.

      Immediately they had Sarah Smith (daughter of ex labour leader John Smith) outside Holyrood TELLING the audience a load of utter pish.

      Pish 1….”The SNP cannot possibly hold another independence referendum until AT LEAST AFTER the NEXT Holyrood election……”

      Pish 2……”and even then, NOT without a MAJORITY at Holyrood”.

      Pish 3…..the words “get on with the day job” was referenced AT LEAST 6 TIMES by both Sarah Smith and the odious host, Jo Coburn.

      BBC at it again folks, support indy and still paying the telly tax ?

      WHY ???

    71. wull2 says:

      If Scotland creates a Scottish Investment Bank lets put some of our money in it and create an account, and make it a Scotland independent poll.

    72. Capella says:

      Just watched this video and want to thank Rosie and Ellen for spelling out what BREXIT is doing to talented and forward thinking people who can make such a difference for everybody.

      It is embarrassing to be part of such a xenophobic state.
      We have to get out of here. Soon. Let’s hope before it is too late for Rosie and Ellen.

    73. Dorothy Devine says:

      Geeo, because they are a bunch of lying , manipulative b^ggers , they would not know the truth if it belted them in the face with a wet herring.

      A more hideous parcel o’ rogues in a nation has only been found once before.

      The ‘impartial’ broadcaster needs its wings trimmed if not amputated.

    74. wull2 says:

      If Scotland creates a Scottish Investment Bank lets put some of our money in it and create an account, and make it a Scotland independent poll.

    75. schrodingers cat says:

      43-47% yes…… sounds about right. but 8k is a lot of money 🙁

      the 5-10% increase we need to win doesnt come out of nowhere, it comes from the continuing bad news from brexit

      at the beginning of indyref1, the polsters asked yes, no, dk, and devo max, they added every answer together except yes and then ran headlines saying on 29% of population supports indy, disengenious to say the least, as many of us pointed out, Alex is simply throwing it back at them, this 29% yes makes a good headline but is no more valid now than it was then.

      when brexit comes home to roost, i expect we will start t see a movement towards yes, a consistent 52-54 % and i would look to see nicola put indyref2 back on the table and announce a date with 6 months max run in

    76. Ken500 says:

      The Cap lifted on public sector pay. Another million votes for SNP/Independence in the bag?

      The SNP will support and hold another IndyRef when it came be won. Soon. Scotland is already going on a different path.

      Ignorant Press. Not mentioning the Oil sector tax 40% since Jan 2017. Westminster mismanagement. Losing thousands of jobs in Scotland.

    77. Golfnut says:

      @ Valerie

      Thanks Valerie, just what I needed. Forgot to bookmark previously, won’t make that mistake again. Thanks also to Grousebeater.

    78. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 17:36,

      While I agree that (all things being equal) the unfolding Brexit disaster will begin to move things forward in favour of independence, this apparent dependence on polls and other forms of reading the tea leaves is too passive a strategy for me (and others too, I dare say).

      You win by a combination of the tide beginning to turn in the right direction (granted) together with an ability and willingness to stand up loud and clear for what you actually represent.

      It is Rude Gal’s willingness to simulate the latter (even if her message is fundamentally empty) which has brought her party in Scotland such success as was achieved at the last UKGE. (Even if limited. Probably peak Tory unless BLiS implodes, but nevertheless.)

      There never will, of its own accord, be a time when the polls will offer a guarantee of success. Just look at what happened to Theresa lately, for example.

      Deciding when the time is right to strike is the acid test of real leadership. It necessarily will involve a fair amount of courage as well as good background intelligence.

    79. TheWasp says:

      Radio five live just now, Nicola Sturgeon says this, then tRuthless is given the floor to rubbish the whole thing, the here’s Our Sarah to rubbish the whole thing. No SNP person heard speaking, no right of reply. FFS….

    80. Andy-B says:

      On BBC Shortbread news, you can visibly see Jackie Bird, and Glen Campbell are miffed that the SNP are getting on with the day job.

      Imagine what Scotland could become under the SNP, if the Britnat parties at Holyrood, actually cared about Scotland.

    81. Moonlight says:

      Slightly O-T, but very useful to remind ourselves and to explain to others this link lays out our current rights and resposibilities as EU citizens. Soon to be torn from us by the lunacy of Brexit and the denial of the will of the Scottish electorate.

      I have wondered if the SG could legally stamp our UK passports with the words “Resident of Scotland” or similar to avoid the growing coldness to which one is subject to when entering Schengen.

    82. Shinty says:

      petrol & diesel cars to be banned in Scotland by 2032.?

      Just for the record, the actual quote is
      “phase out the need for new petrol and diesel cars and vans by 2032”

    83. Capella says:

      Nicola’s speech in Holyrood today. Some very interesting proposals. Listen to the real thing and not what the nasty media say she said.

    84. gus1940 says:

      No surprise then re the reaction of the usual mob of BBC courtesy of Sarah Smith,and Bird, Col. Ruth, Rowley and every paper except The National.

      Sarah Smith was disgraceful on both Daily Politics ably supported by Cockburn and Misreporting Scotland.

      It would appear that attempts are being made to brainwash us into thinking that Nicola has put Indyref2 on the shelf until after the next Holyrood GE – even The National has been giving us that impress.

      While I accept that some SNP members such as Tommy Sheppard support that delay my memory tells me that it is still the intention to hold Indyref2 as soon as we know the ‘negotiate’ terms of Brexit. The only change made since Nicola announced after the EU Referendum the intention to hold it at that point is that the Referendum Bill will not now be introduced until said terms are known.

      All the usual suspects are still banging on as they have been doing for months that The SNP Government is obsessed with Indyref2 and Independence to the exclusion of ‘doing the day job’.

      If any party has been relatively quiet on that front it has been The SNP. The Tories, Labour, LibDem, BBC and all the papers except The National and SH have been shouting from the rooftops against Indyref2 for the last year and it was the only policy that the colonialist parties and their media fan club had for both the Local and General Elections.

      Finally it would appear that Labour are claiming credit for today’s announcement by Nicola of the scrapping of the Public Sector Pay Freeze as if it is some sort of Labour victory.

    85. jfngw says:

      It’s pretty clear now the drive from the media, after consulting the appropriate parties, is to claim that the last 10 years of SNP government has been a disaster.

      The pattern has been building for a while, and the latest onslaught was begun by our bearded friend on Monday. He is like the internet control botnet, sending out his DoS attack command to the infected journos of the media.

      The aim is clear the SNP must be removed from government, make sure you have your anti-britnat virus defences up people.

    86. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Scotland in the UK without a devolved parliament.

      Do you know I think they (The British Nats)are crazy enough to try it on with that one.

      Once out of Europe they could deal with the pesky Scottish.

      That would be the end of that then.

      No more debate no more democracy.

    87. Morgatron says:

      Fuck sake ; channel 4 news have just said on intro ; SNP fighting off a resurgent Scottish Labour Party, i just spat my coffee over my telly.

    88. Macart says:

      Heh. Usual suspects and their media moving into full spin cycle and they have reason to. The poor dears appear awfy nervous.

      Maybe just me, but that programme for government seemed to propose just that… a programme for government.

      Think about that, then ask yourself the obvious question. 😉

    89. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Morgatron @ 19:05,

      But of course BLiS is resurgent and the SNP are losers. Sarah Smith said so earlier in the day on the EBC, so it must be true. =cough=

      Which of course explains why Kez decided to quit right now. She just couldn’t handle the awesome prospect of actually “winning” next time. =laugh=

      Sarah EBCsplained that as well, didn’t she? (What, no?!)

    90. Sinky says:

      Channel Four News now on about a resurgent Labour Party in Scotland.

      Sky News again ignoring SNP MPs.

      Don’t you love the metropolitan media bubble.

    91. Alex Clark says:

      The propaganda appears to have gone into overdrive with a new Slab election looming. How ridiculous does it all look though, for example the claims about sepsis or how Slab will be rejuvenated lead by Anas Sarwar? Who is the other contender by the way?

      I’ve never heard of him and quite possibly neither have 50% of Slab members.

      Anyway sorry for the waffle, my point is this shite does not go unnoticed even by the uninformed, this is desperate stuff from the propaganda unit in my view and will backfire.

      This is an opportunity, just tell your No voting family and friends “watch the News for the truth” and then laugh. They’ve gone too far and everyone has to see the Emperor has no clothes.

    92. Dan Huil says:

      Och, naw! Nae anither Slabby messiah! Gies ower the nails!

    93. budwiser says:

      But Sky News gave us Bottle Banks, well that is what they told us in their morning news bulletin today.

      Scotland’s Sky reporter James Mathews is your typical Scottish Yoon who sold his soul to the English.

    94. Morgatron says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 7.18
      Oh , how stoopid of me , i will search out all seeings Sarhas gospel. There is no doubt , this is the EBC and UK media line of propoganda and subliminal brainwashing of us dopey Scots. They are truly a shower of horrible nasty shite . Though , im sure it will all come back to haunt them. What has the SNP done for us in the last 10 years? Michael Crick asks the locals in North Queensferry , it was straight out of Python. Free Prescriptions, Free Tuition, M8 and M9 upgrade , Queensferry Crossing , Baby Boxes oh and irrigation !!!

    95. Shinty says:

      OT just for laughs, Paddy Power have Ruth on 14/1 and Gove on 20/1. for the next PM. Bet the knives will be out for Ruth shortly.
      Not that I care, eating too much popcorn can’t be good for you.

      Another great clip from Phantom Power and big thank you to Rose & Ellen.

    96. Dr Jim says:

      The programme for government:

      She’s daring Westminster to deny her Scotlands full powers
      Plus she’s trolling the Unionists at Holyrood to vote down what’s obviously a whole lot of excellent stuff for Scotland

      In order for Unionists to stop her they’ll be demonstrating that they want to hold Scotland back, and with Brexit looming as well you can see what she’s thinking

      Mbwaaahahhaha! Clever girl!

    97. Rock says:

      Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      Scotland was on the verge of independence immediately after the Brexit vote.

      The unionist parties were without leaders and completely lost, the SNP had 56 out of 59 MPs and 50% of the vote, the EU’s eyes were (favourably) on Scotland.

      Instead of striking when the iron was hot, she tried to be ultra cautious.

      The result: She was outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other, fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%.

      It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit and the SNP will be caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.

      Or another “snap” Westminster election with the SNP again losing support.

      Either way, the independence momentum has been lost for a very long time.

    98. CameronB Brodie says:

      OT. It’s probably been mentioned before but I’m noticing a pattern of the BBC in Scotland reporting events in such a manner as to disassociate BLiS___d from previous policy failures. At the same time, the SNP is being disassociate from policy achievements. All that has been required to achieve such obvious political manipulation, is the omission of party names from the reports.

      Sirs, one’s head does not button at the back.

    99. Tinto Chiel says:

      Hey, Dr Jim, mon vieux, what’s the Spanish for, “There’s an annoying nasty smell around here?

      I could do it in French or Italian but I am curious, yellow.


    100. CameronB Brodie says:

      Dr Jim
      Designed to strengthen alignment with the Greens, who simply can not now fail to support an independent Scotland?

      All these progressive policies are an anathema to Anglo-American neo-liberalism and will be gone in a flash if Brexit drags Scotland in the direction that England appears to be heading.

    101. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      You know what I find pleasing?

      The great number of new usernames on Wings, who have appeared since that happy summer of 2014.

      All it takes, as Margo said, is for each of us (Wingers?) to provide the info required to a previous NO voter, to convert them to a YES.

      THAT is not the “day job” of our Scottish Government – it’s OUR job. Work away subtly with the truth and eventually, the light of realisation will be switched on. Once it’s on, what could switch it off?

      I’m working, slowly, on two work colleagues who voted NO in 2014. I’m sure one of them will vote YES in indyref2 – I’m hoping that he will persuade his brother, who thought that 2014 “isn’t the time” will wake up to the fact that WE SCOTS can determine our own future as a nation.

      Otherwise, when the Tory majority in England get their way, the other nations of the British Isles will be stuffed.

    102. jfngw says:

      Listening to the media is a bit like being stuck in the original Manchurian Candidate, all you hear is radio gaga. You’re Scottish, you’re useless, the SNP have done nothing, don’t question you’re betters at WM, you will be destitute outside the UK (a third world country).

      Will the brainwashing work, they believe it will and the evidence when you look around brainwashed societies is that it does. After all the media wanted Brexit, and it happened.

      They are now itching for a war in Asia, journalists love wars, the potential for fame is huge. Plus all the potential retrospectives and books, it’s big money.

    103. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Rock – shut up. You’re embarrassing yourself.

      And, BTW, you have declined every invitation to attend a Wings social evening over the past two years. I don’t think you’re real. You’re a bot.

    104. Morgatron says:

      Old Pie face Robertson saying independence would have encouraged ISIS ! Eh , what is this clown on? Spice? . I cant look at his face without seeing a “City Bakeries Halloween Cake” a total useless liging muppet.

    105. Tinto Chiel says:

      Dan Huil: great link, thanks.

      Not anywhere on MSM, of course. I keep saying, with even a 60/40 No MSM, we’d walk it. Instead, it’s 95/5.

      Brexit will change all this. People will have to suffer for a New Scotland. Maybe they’ll value it more, who knows?

      Could have been a lot easier in 2014…..

    106. colin alexander says:


      Came across one of my auld Indyref campaign letters. Thought it might jog a few memories and give people a wee laugh:

      “Maybe the fact there are the UK’s weapons of mass murder parked in our Gareloch and they will be desperate to have them there until they find somewhere else to base them.

      If the UK does not play fair with the people of Scotland we can tell the rUK to get their Trident submarines out of our country pronto and stick them up their Bristol Channel straight away – and we expect a refund for our share of it.

      George Osborne claimed they aren’t going to hand the cheque book and credit card for their £ Sterling bank account over to Scotland.

      Well, the UK has run up £1.5 Trillion debts and it’s rising by the second.

      If they aren’t going to share the bank account, then they can’t share the overdraft that’s been run up on that account either.

      If the rUK keep the pound for themselves, they keep the £ debts for themselves too.

      You can’t have your cake and eat it as the Unionists like to remind us.

      G.O. also said a rUK won’t run their economy to suit Scotland.

      Well, isn’t that an admission, if they wouldn’t do it then, they certainly don’t do it now.

      Clearly, the UK economy is run for England’s benefit, not Scotland’s.

      Another reason for Independence.

      As for calling it the remaining UK (rUK). I prefer to call it the former UK (fUK).

      Because I look forward to the Scottish working class telling Cameron and his cronies to go to fUK and stay out of Free Scotland.”

    107. Effijy says:

      I too was sickened by Radio Shortbread this morning helping to cover the complete unmitigated disaster that was the Edinburgh Labour Council’s Tramway folly.

      No need to name Labour as the culprit, no need to remind everyone that the SNP identified it as a white elephant.

      It seems that they were just unlucky that so many £millions went down the drain for part of a Tramway system.

      They didn’t investigate the problem utilities that were too close to the surface, they use a contractor’s contract that they didn’t understand-reported as them being brave,
      and they didn’t monitor or manage the project with the necessary range of skills demanded.

      You can just imagine the EBC Headlines if this had happened to an SNP Council.

      Complete and utter biased bullsh*t from Westminster’s
      propaganda channel.

    108. I never saw that letter, EVER, you must have just written it as another of your attemps to tarnish the SNP,the SG, the YES movement and the indy side in 2014, as you do continually. Colin Alexander you fool no-one. This is my first and last response to you or to read anymore of your crap.

    109. caz-m says:

      Nice to see the mis-trust and disgust of our Scottish Media is still there simmering away nicely on the back burner.

      These feelings will hopefully be spreading throughout Scotland and result in a massive turnout at the doors of BBC Scotland once IndyRef2 gets up and running.

    110. Legerwood says:

      Morgatron and Sinky

      The intro at the start of CH4 news was certainly surprising when they said ‘Labour’s resurgence’ in Scotland but when they got to the actual report Michael Crick corrected that. Jeanne Freeman gave a good and forceful account of some what the SNP had done in Government.

      Best bit was the roasting given to Sarwar and Leonard when they were interviewed in the piece on the Labour leadership contest. Don’t think they are used to that sort of thing particularly Sarwar. Fatima Kanji was the interviewer and she had done her homework.

    111. Legerwood says:

      Morgatron and Sinky

      The intro at the start of CH4 news was certainly surprising when they said ‘Labour’s resurgence’ in Scotland but when they got to the actual report Michael Crick corrected that. Jeanne Freeman gave a good and forceful account of some what the SNP had done in Government.

      Best bit was the roasting given to Sarwar and Leonard when they were interviewed in the piece on the Labour leadership contest. Don’t think they are used to that sort of thing particularly Sarwar. Fatima Manji was the interviewer and she had done her homework.

    112. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      British Labour in Scotland’s Tramway folly was foisted onto the SNP Scots Govt so they couldn’t dual the A9 sooner, don’t ever forget that @Effijy says at 8:33 pm.

      BLiS, The Fib Dems and Tories pissed that cash away by tying the incoming SNP Scots Govt to the Tram Project.

      “Mr Salmond, who is in Inverness for a two-day visit which will include a meeting of the Scottish cabinet, said if it had been up to him, he would have invested £500 million in dualling the road rather than on Edinburgh’s tram project. But Labour, Conservative and Lib-Dem members had dictated otherwise a reference to last year’s Scottish Parliamentary vote when the tram project was voted through after opposition parties joined forces against the SNP.”

      Remember the Unionist Parties Scottish Branches have never invested in our infrastructure because to do so would create competition with England.

    113. ronnie anderson says:

      Did anybody record Ch 4 news, am no signing into register .

    114. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brian Doonthetoon
      I found it a strange choice of language when Rock told me he “knew of my reputation on Wings”. I took it as awkward respect, at the time.

      I’m not calling you a bot but I would suggest you’re a bit of an idealist with a blind-eye to the weaknesses in Marxist theory. Would that be anywhere near the mark?

    115. Artyhetty says:

      Excellent film. Really good to see this. Only read some comments so far, and it looks like the britnat media are upping the anti, anti SNP at any opportunity.

      Absolute disgrace the brainwashing going on. A tactic no doubt used to demonise the SNP, in readiness to dismantle the Scottish parliament as soon as their brexshit is sealed. Scotland’s fate will be sealed if we don’t get out before that.

    116. Marie Clark says:

      Tinto @ 8.07 ” what’s the Spanish for there’s an annoying nasty smell around her?

      Hay una molerta desagradable vender por aqui, I think that’s right. I stand to be corrected.

      Adios amigo.

    117. Macart says:

      @Alex Clark

      Never interrupt your opponent when they are making a catastrophic error.

      The meeja are over egging, as are the establishment parties. I think the FM caught them cold and its put the wind right up their wossiname. They don’t know how to respond appropriately to something they never counted on. Response?

      Deranged comes to mind. 🙂

    118. Marie Clark says:

      here not her doh!

    119. HandandShrimp says:

      I see whoever is running Anas’ campaign is doing the “he’s the one the SNP fear” thing 🙂

      Interesting tactic although obviously aimed at Labour members as they prepare to vote in the election.

      I don’t actually care which of the two they choose.

    120. wull2 says:

      Don’t they realise, the more they say Scotland is rubbish, the more the people of Scotland will say this is not my experience, next time I will vote YES.

    121. crazycat says:

      @ Effijy

      Did you see on the last thread, yesterday, that I thought I might have found the “fake letter” you were looking for?

      Threads move on so fast sometimes it can be hard to keep a conversation going (this is not a plea for comment-nesting!).

    122. yesindyref2 says:

      Thanks for that, it’s very diffrent from actually phasing them out. I didn’t read the H article properly.

      Indeed, but for me there’s no harm in reacting the way I’m supposed to – lull them into a false sense of security. I think (and hope) there’s a bit of misdirection going on here, the speed of the hand defeats the eye kind of stuff, while the media is blinded by the light and trips over its arse.

      But that could be a load of rubbish!

    123. louis.b.argyll says:

      ronnie anderson says:
      Did anybody record Ch 4 news, am no signing into register.

      No, afraid not Ronnie, but she did get him a beaut, with the –

      ‘.. But didn’t you vote WITH the Tories on austerity’ line.

    124. jfngw says:

      Blinking heck, we’re all petrified,
      Labour is getting another leader.

      It’s just a jump to the left
      And then a step to the right
      With your hands on your hips
      You bring your knees in tight
      But it’s the pelvic thrust
      That really drives you insane

      Let’s do the time warp again

      Warning! Do not under any circumstances try and image SLab MSP’s performing this routine, your brain will explode.

    125. yesindyref2 says:

      @Tinto Chiel
      Don’t know what it is in Spanish, but in cat language it’s “Miaouw Miaouw”, which translates to “My litter tray, my poo”.

    126. velofello says:

      My response to this video is disgust. Disgust that two personable young women find the need to speak about the impending Brexit disruption to so many lives, and for what? Just what is Brexit going to deliver to the benefit of the residents of Scotland?

      C’mon, someone, detail out the benefits to Scotland of Brexit. We know you read Wings, so step forward someone, detail out the benefits of Brexit.

    127. louis.b.argyll says:

      Warning! Do not under any circumstances try and image SLab MSP’s performing this routine, your brain will explode.

      Too late…Might get back to you once I unscramble my sensibilities..

    128. Legerwood says:

      ronnie anderson @ 9.11

      The two items from CH4 news tonight are now on their web site. No need to sign in. Here is the link

    129. Hamish100 says:

      Don’t believe you.Get back to reading your guardian

    130. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Ledgerwood many Thanks.

    131. heedtracker says:

      C’mon, someone, detail out the benefits to Scotland of Brexit. We know you read Wings, so step forward someone, detail out the benefits of Brexit.

      BBC r4 tory creeps news just there say that there’s been a UK gov leak to stinky olde Graun tories, and it says, there’s going to be immigration restrictions on unskilled EU workers to the UK and they wont be able to take their families with them. Immigrants must have skills.

      Except that they will. They will just have to register with the UK gov.

      Tory twit guest says that’s what people voted Leave for, restricting bally immigrants and returning England back into a milky white 1950’s Ealing movie.

      Tory twit on beeb r4

    132. colin alexander says:

      SNP plan to increase the minimum age of responsibility from eight to 12.

      The Scottish government would not oppose John Finnie’s proposals to prohibit the physical punishment of children.

      Cut the tails off helpless pups but let the young neds run wild, unpunished.

      SNP have lost the plot.

    133. wee bud says:

      EBC doesn’t even pretend to be impartial anymore..

      Did anyone else notice Jeremy Vine interview his own producer who once lived in South Korea.. He let it known his family are from Islay the same place that regular contributor and Tory wannabe Alistair Redman comes from..

      Coincidence maybe ,but they never mention his Tory credentials.. This area is full of British Nationalists who are doing well out of Scottish government infrastructure projects and Eu money.. Turkeys and Christmas..

    134. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dr Jim says: 5 September, 2017 at 7:57 pm:

      “In order for Unionists to stop her they’ll be demonstrating that they want to hold Scotland back, and with Brexit looming as well you can see what she’s thinking.”

      I expect the next propaganda push will be along the lines of, “That First Minister wifie needs to stop doing the day job and get on with campaigning for Scottish Independence.

      And to think that it is the poor old English tax payers that are having to pay for it all while those lazy good for nothing sweaties stand there with their hands out looking for even more English money. After the English paying for the great big White Elephant bridge we built for them and they don’t even have tolls on it either.

    135. heedtracker says:

      Either way, the independence momentum has been lost for a very long time

      Fine. In that case will you f off now Rock and when you get there, keep going, please:D

    136. Chick McGregor says:

      Just back from the National roadshow with the Wee Ginger Dug in Forfar. Venue packed.

      One of the more interesting items of the evening was from a former BBC employee, not a scheduled guest, a member of the audience, who said that when she worked for the BBC in the 90s they had been subject to rigorous guidelines on impartiality.

      So when she heard all these claims about bias (she was out of the country during indyref1) she simply discounted them .

      However on coming back, she could not believe the transformation.

      She is now an ardent Yes activist.

    137. Graf Midgehunter says:

      “Don’t know what it is in Spanish”…

      I still prefer the good old fashioned nose sniffer and “Ich rieche Scheisse”… (Ich reesha shysa) 😉

      Do it at your place of work or with friends and demonstrate to folk your linguistic ability. 🙂

    138. geeo says:

      Rock thinks there will be a “snap brexit”…oh na sides…!!

      Quick, someone tell the EU Article 50 has been re written without them knowing ..!!!

      What a wally.

      Brexit CANNOT HAPPEN until 12:01 on the 1st April 2019 (fittingly).

      Imagine not even knowing that.

    139. heedtracker says:

      However on coming back, she could not believe the transformation.

      Looks like another case where yoons says something but mean the exact opposite. They like their Vows too,

    140. Ken500 says:

      Brexit. Westminster unionist crooks are trying to depopulate Scotland again.

      Westmibster caused the migration crisis into Europe. The illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Now they want to walk away from it. They will not get away with it. Fiddling the figures. Ruining the economy. The Tories are imploding. There will be another GE. They will be out. Labour are imploding in Scotland.Brexit will trigger another IndyRef. Then will be the time. Coming next..

    141. cearc says:

      I really don’t see this lost momentum stuff.

      It is far easier to steer or instigate casual conversations to useful topics when there is not an official campaign running.

      So much material for people not politically engaged. England football matches instead of Scotland, scanty coverage of the queen’s official opening (none on R4).

      It has become so much easier to chat about blatant bias and misrepresentation in the msm and particularly the BBC. People who genuinely believed the beeb to be reliable a few years ago and thought you a bit of a nutter for saying otherwise, no longer think so.

      When the SG have exhausted all the possible brexit options and the chaos and mess of that prospect is clear to all, then we’ll have another ref. choose your future, European Scotland v. isolationist Little Britain.

      It is all doing very nicely.

      Just keep chatting to people.

    142. John de Soulis says:


      Scotland gets independence. 😉

    143. heedtracker says:

      John de Soulis says:
      5 September, 2017 at 11:41 pm

      Scotland gets independence. ?

      That is the best comment, with which to end the day 😀

    144. Meg merrilees says:


      Just a thought… maybe they’re reaching the stage where they think a war in Asia is the only way to prevent Indy ref2!

      I think they might find an awful lot more people will want Trident moved away from it’s current location…

    145. colin alexander says:


      Comment in the Herald re the Scot Govt Named Person Scheme / GIRFEC:

      I suggest you read the Supreme Court’s ruling on the Named Person Scheme:

      “Accordingly, as currently drafted, the information sharing sections of Part 4 and the Guidance do not satisfy the requirement of being in accordance with the law.

      There is no redress, if the system is abused. That is currently the case under GIRFEC (Getting It Right For Every Child).

      All it takes is one teacher, doctor, Social Worker or Social Work assistant, health visitor, anyone to whisper one bad word in officialdom (or to officialdom) , perhaps because you criticised them for not doing their job properly. Your life can be ruined.

      You are assumed guilty by one unsubstantiated false suggestion by any one of these people. Sometimes perhaps meant with good intentions, a misunderstanding or perhaps more maliciously eg. because you have criticised a teacher for failing to safeguard the safety of your child.

      “Wellbeing” is used as the magic word to excuse any abuse of power.

      In the 1600s, the accusation in Scotland was “witch”, to condemn the innocent. Today the word is wellbeing, and use of this vague word can condemn any innocent parents / carers to being damned as bad parents.

      Report the guilty staff and Councils and Health Boards produce whitewash reports.

      Next step, ombudsman.

      You have less chance of having your name cleared by the Scottish Public Services Ombudsman ( SPSO) and your complaint being upheld against a false accuser, than an old hag had in the 1600s when begging the witchprickers for justice.

      Plead for justice to the Scot Govt and you have less chance of justice than a burning woman had when begging King James VI to save her from the witchprickers.

    146. louis.b.argyll says:

      Bad breeding and bad conditions leads to risk of severe pain to certain types of working dogs, should they injure their tails.

      Colin Alexander? Or whatever your real name is, are you some kind of inverted vetinary pro-lifer now?

    147. colin alexander says:


      I’m no being sarcastic or anything.

      What do you mean by: “are you some kind of inverted vetinary pro-lifer now?”

    148. Dr Jim says:

      @Tinto Chiel

      Very similar to French in fact, Mierda or as many Spanish now say, Shit, coz they’re very cosmopolitan these days and do embrace many other languages and cultures unlike our Unionist acquaintances

      On another note I was not surprised tonight that ITV National news decided to report that Scotland education system is now the worst since records ever began on the face of the earth because there was far too much good news being reported about Scotland and it’s Queen of democracy Nicola Sturgeon over on Sky news

      Apparently Sky news wants to lay claim to the Scottish governments decision to create a plastic and aluminium return and recycle system at their own door even though several other countries are actually already doing it and in fact we in Scotland already have a small system running in our Universities

      But still, if it makes SKY news love us more, fill yer boots

      Tonight the SNP are indeed just the worst ever government ever according to STV news and pals thereof and wee Colin McKay the ex DJ from Radio Forth turned political commentator who it has to be said ALMOST repeats the FMs words after she’s spoken them (but not quite though eh)
      he must be learning the trade from Toodle ooh the Noo Taylor

      The STV Scotland tonight ambush on Mark McDonald was dutifully prepared with a Tory Numpty and James Kelly an even bigger Labour catastrophe but try as he might I’M JOHN MCKAY (nice chap though I’m sure he is) failed to make a pudding out of Mr McDonald but succeeded in making a custard out of himself (with no flavour I might add) John McKay should stick to humorous asides towards Ramaan at the sports and leave it at that and the same goes for Help me Rona (poor wee soul that she is)

      Thursday should be epic entertainment for FMQs with Alex Rowley at the helm taking quarter of an hour to ask each question (not renowned for his speed of thought is Alex Rowley)

      Soon be the season to be Jolly

    149. colin alexander says:

      John Finnie MSP, Scottish Greens, seeks to criminalise parents who try to teach their child right from wrong.

      The bad parents who let their children run wild will be the innocent ones.

      Perfect example of how the Regional List method of electing MPs is damaging Scotland.

      (Murdo Fraser is another good example).

      Regional List = The rejected are elected.

    150. Still Positive says:

      Colin Alexander @ 12.01

      When I started teaching in 1994 I knew I was in ‘loco parentis’ and indeed used that for the benefit of every child in my classes.

      I did, on occasions have to use the so-called ‘Named Persons Act’ for the benefit of pupils.

      One whose father congratulated me for looking out for his son. The other, who came to me, by directing him via Pastoral Care to agencies who could direct him, his siblings and his father to bereavement counselling.

      This is the only time I will respond to you as you talk a load of mince, or any other word anybody else wants to use.

    151. Famous15 says:

      Colin Alexander is what we in the trade call a concern troll. They pretend to share your views but inject so much distortion and befuddlement that many are turned off.QED for them.

      For me I simply see a giant shit stirrer general.

    152. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      colin alexander @ 00:38,

      Colin, what has any of your typical witterings to do with the current thread topic? They’re not even vaguely close.

      If you really want to have a blog, fine, go put your money where your mouth is and do your own. Then you can freely choose the topic(s) du jour for yourself.

      It’s sheer bad manners to parasitise on this site as you do.

      (Obviously you haven’t twigged yet, but you are wasting your time here anyway. Most people can spot you a mile off, and just skip on by now.)

    153. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ Capella: “Nicola’s speech”

      That was good. Cheers for posting it.

    154. CameronB Brodie says:

      Reluctant Nationalist
      Honest guv I’m not a bot and I’m only teasing. 😉

      P.S. I don’t think Sir. Popper would have approved of the BBC in Scotland.

    155. Ghillie says:

      Oh my Gish Galloping pal, you’re fond of the idea of physically punishing children, are you?

      You’ve just crossed a line. Not even in morbid curiosity will your words be read again.

    156. Macart says:

      @schrodingers cat

      Anyone who experienced a YES gathering throughout that whole campaign won’t forget. They may have a slight lapse of memory every now and again and have a good old grump, but they won’t ever forget. Not really.

      The driving motivation of the YES movement is written all over the faces of those gathered. It is now, as it was then, a pretty damn good feeling. Hopeful, happy, energized and positive. People full of ideas, dreams and imagination. People who knew, KNEW, they were engaged in something good and positive. As Paul Kavanagh noted a few weeks back in a post, supporting self determination is “an act of creation”. Or as Margo once said ‘we’re on the side of the angels’.

      People who care, who truly care, don’t participate in acts of destruction or hate. They don’t wish harm to their own or put others in harms way. They are the problem solvers, doers, thinkers, dreamers. They have the imagination to dream of better things and the courage, the will and the ingenuity to make it happen. Whatever their physical age? They’re all young where it counts.

      Having said that, my back and my eyes are reminding me it’s way past bedtime for this moaning, middle aged grump. 😀

      But no. Memory isn’t going to be a problem.

    157. CameronB Brodie says:

      Boy am I slow. It’s taken me until now to realise I’m not in character. Need to sort that.

      Without freedom of choice there is no creativity. The body dies. – Captain James T. Kirk

    158. Ghillie says:

      Capella @ 6.56 pm

      Thank you so much for the link to Nicola Sturgeon’s statement in Holyrood.

      That is an impressive plan = )

      Macart @ 2.56 am

      Aw shucks = ) Yup, you summed that up nicely 🙂

    159. yesindyref2 says:

      Maybe it’s Heed’s Slovenian girlfriend with a new ID, and a revamped IO module.

      Anyway, didn’t really take to Sturgeon’s plans at first, too green for me. But the thing about green is if you put it all together in a sensible way, it could be hugely economy beneficial. So thinking about it, I really do like the plans after all. Very imaginative.

    160. Ghillie says:

      Thank you Phantom Power Films AGAIN!

      And thank you Rosie and Ellon for a poignant and topical view of what lies ahead.

      Neither lass should have to leave the country they have made home. That makes my heart ache. How can that be?

      When we take this Brexit sh*t out of the abstract and into daily reality we can mibbee see and feel more clearly what Brexit actually means.

      The economics, human rights, changes in law and all the rest are horrendous.

      But the HUMAN story is one we should also really be focusing on.

      Because THAT is what we can really understand and relate to. Everything else falls into place around that.

      Good luck Rosie and Ellon. Independence could change all this =) Lets work for that.

    161. manandboy says:

      In terms of underlying ethos, this Westminster Government is little different from British Governments during the time of the Slave Trade or The Clearances. The right to self-determination and the sovereignty of the people of Scotland mean nothing to the English. We are a cash cow pure and simple which is all they are interested in.

      Only ever vote SNP, support Independence any way you can, avoid propaganda. Be prepared to fight for self-determination. No one is going to hand it to you on a plate, least of all the English ruling classes.

    162. Robert Peffers says:

      @colin alexander says: 6 September, 2017 at 12:16 am:

      “I’m no being sarcastic or anything.
      What do you mean by: “are you some kind of inverted vetinary pro-lifer now?””

      Is, perhaps, English not your first language, Colin?

      He means, “are you some kind of inverted vetinary pro-lifer now?”

    163. Hamish100 says:

      So the RUK trades unions the English government and so called Scottish politicians must be hiding today.

      The number of frigates to be built on the Clyde is less than promised in 2014 and fen then even then it will be partial builds

      But Lamont darling Davidson and co all new that didn’t they.

    164. Hamish100 says:

      oh for an edit button.

      So the RUK trades unions, the English government and so called Scottish politicians must be hiding today.

      The number of frigates to be built on the Clyde is less than promised in 2014 and even then it will be partial builds

      But Lamont darling Davidson and co all new that didn’t they.

    165. Robert Louis says:

      Jeez. Just watched that alt right Tory clown, Michael Fallon on the BBC. To paraphrase ‘ we are leaving the EU, so freedom of movement needs to end’. Their you have it folks. They really, really do intend shutting the doors in both directions, turning what remains of the UK into some kind of isolationist, British Nationalist, closed off state.

      This is urgent. Really, really urgent. The SNP really, really needs to get the finger oot, and put a stop to this nonsense. All those plans announced yesterday, will mean sweet b*gger all, if brexit happens.

      If they do not act soon, it will be too late. Get on with it, FFS!! Stop freaking well procrastinating.

      If the SNP are NOT going to stand up for Scotland against brexit, then it is about time they came clean and told all of us, so we know their is no hope. Then at least people can make plans, move abroad, return to the EU etc..

      I know folks on here don’t like hearing this, but the damage is happening RIGHT NOW. The time for dithering or talking is over. We need action.

    166. MJT says:

      What a great wee film. It’s always nice to hear the views of sensible well informed people. Hats off to Phantom Power Films.

    167. Brian Powell says:

      Try hitting an adult, see where it ends up, hitting a child is the same. It’s assault.

    168. louis.b.argyll says:

      Why is the ‘defence’ secretary on BBC spouting pish about immigrants.

      Fallon is a professional liar, his disengenuousnees oozes from his deceitful manner.
      Wait, is that’s too a big word? He too has inverted reasoning, ‘defending us’ with fearful hate as a social divider.

    169. Ken500 says:

      Scotland has one of the best education system in the world. 55% go to university. One of the highest in the world 30% from school. 25% mature students. The Tories have cut education/NHS spending. The SNP Gov have to mitigate it and top it up. Scotland has one of the highest number of public universities pro rata in the world.

      Scotland (5million) has 15 public Universities. Finland (5million) has 10.

      South Korea (51Million) has 45 public universities, 180 paid.
      China 1,2Billion people have 2000 (fee paying?) universities. That is why so many students have to study abroad.

      More students go on to University, College or apprenticeships. 92%. One of the highest in the world, The PISA tests are based in child abuse/cruelty. A fallacy. 35% of South Korean children are out of education by the time they are fifteen, They study from 8am till 12pm at night. The parents have to pay for it. Pupils commit suicide. Elitist not inclusive. Figure based on that. They are considering changing to a less stressful system.

      Scotland could do better but the unionists councils cut Education spending. Spending £200Million on a grotesque monstrosity no one wants. Ruining City centres. £300Million on a white elephant Conference centre. No one wants. Shutting Art Galleries and other venues for years. Spending £5Million+ on a hub for displaced paintings. Cutting education and essential services. Changing council meetings to accommodate two jobs Tories to keep them in power. They are cutting education spending (councils) then standing up in Holyrood,denying it and lying.The unionists are an utter disgrace, Cut Additional needs support. Teachers get no additional needs training,

      SKy News are ignorant liars. It is the Tories/Westminster liars who have cut educational spending, The education/NHS system in England is in crisis. They are trying to cut classroom sizes from 36 to 31. Massive student debt. Another fiscal crisis. No enough trained teachers or school places. Waiting times going up. SKy fake News should concentrate on that, instead of telling lies about Scotland.

      13-% + (of 20% poorer) students go to Uni. How many mature students come from poorer households. More than 13% is likely, This increases the percentage number of students from poorer household going to University. The number of children in poorer households has increased form 18% to 20% because of the Westmibster illegal welfare changes. Westminster have cut £18Billion from Welfare spending, £20Billion from NHS. Over £6Billion+ a year from eduction, The Scottish Gov have to mitigate these cuts. The Tories are wasting £Billions on HS2, Hinkley Point and Trident etc. Borrowed PPI. The Tories have cut taxes (for the wealthiest) £47Billion a year.

      Brexit will bring down the Tories at Westminster, The Unionists in Scotland are imploding.. There will be another GE soon. Another landslide for the SNP. Another IndyRef will be called. People in Scotland will have had enough. The unionist fake News lies. Get rid of SKy.

      Just keep voting SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Scotland has never been better run. It is already on a changing path. Dread to think what it would be like without an SNP Gov. The ignorant incompetent unionists. The Brexit mess. They haven’t a clue what they are doing. Negotiate? They don’t even know what they want. David Davis does not have a clue.

      The SNP conference in October will re-affirm the SNP commitment to education.

      Holyrood starts up again after the break.The Blah blah blah from the unionists They are a joke.

      MSM need a good education. Most reporters can’t even take five minutes on the internet, To gather a few facts. Overpaid prima donnas. BBC cost £3.7Billion. Mostly nonsense. The real estate management costs more than the programmes. BBC Scotland the Labour Press Office.

      Westminster mismanagement has ruined the Oil sector in Scotland. 40% tax since Jan 2017. Losing thousands of jobs in Scotland. Scotland could have had full employment. Surplus. Scotland loses £20Billion a year to Westminster mismanagement, Scotland raises £58Billion+ + (gets back £50Billion) but could raise more. Losses £4Billion Oil revenues, £3Billion tax evasion, debt repayment on money it doesn’t borrow or spend, £1Billion on Trudent, £1Billion no minimum pricing, Scotland can’t borrow to invest in the economy, loses out EU renewable grants/CAP payments etc. Total £20Billion.

      Fracked Gas from the US and Gas from Norway is being imported.

      Westminster has taken £Billions from Scotland and lied about it. Fiddling the figures. Fiddling migration figures and lying about it. To ruin the world economy. They can’t count or read a balance sheet. Useless. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion causing the worse migration crisis in Europe since 11WW.

    170. LesWilson says:

      Fallon is a clown and a deceitful one, pretty much like all the other Unionist politicians. Says now future UK ship building will be open to quotes from other UK yards, the Clyde and Rosyth will be able to tender also, honestly they can.

      Aye maybe to make us think it is fair, truth is and now proven, we cannot ever, trust anything that Westminster says.
      We might get an odd thing thrown our way. But this is designed to remove the Clyde from UK contracts over a period of time.

      Another Ravenscraig in the making. Decimation of our industries continue. Do we just lay and take any crumbs? Or do we say enough is enough, there is no Union.
      F..k aye!

    171. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      As for the ‘National Ship Building Plan” @LesWilson says at 8:36am it is this simple.

      These Frigates promised to Scottish Yards in the Indy Ref of 2014 will now go to Belfast.

      They will pretend it was an above board tendering process.

      It won’t be, it is just another bribe to the DUP.

    172. colin alexander says:

      @ Ghillie

      I write for the people who are sensible enough to read but usually avoid commenting on here. I don’t give a toss whether you or the other regular commenters read my comments.

      Seeking to criminalise caring, loving parents for chastising their children, to promote their health, safety and teach them right from wrong is a serious mistake.

      Personally, I don’t know anyone, myself included, that is “fond” of skelping weans. If you do, I suggest you find better company.

      Or perhaps cutting the tails off puppy dogs is more your thing and that’s why you idolise the SNP.

      Smacking / skelping is a tried and tested method of helping to raise well-adjusted, happy children, when used properly. But should be used sparingly on the legs or backside. NEVER the head or torso.

      A smacking ban and posthumous pardons for those convicted for what were crimes at the time are just more of the idealist lefty nonsense pasted over the same neo-Liberal capitalist econonomics, to pretend the SNP are socially progressive.

      Following a quick read of the “radical” new policies of the SNP. My main thought is: will it be Sarwar or Leonard who becomes the new FM in 2021, as the SNP look a busted flush nowadays under Nicola Sturgeon.

    173. Tinto Chiel says:

      Thanks to all the linguists who assisted me regarding the Effluvia Situation. Strangely, the problem disappeared soon afterwards. Graf: could you put me out my misery re. the gravatar. Is it the foghorn at Ardnamurchan Point?

      Thanks also to yesindyref2 for reminding us about one of the Rev’s best dissections of Yoon Bilge:

      To think this “academic” gets paid for such utter dross.

      These Phantom Power films are really powerful but need to be seen by more people. I think they will be excellent for village hall use once the Indyref2 campaign starts but they’ll never be seen on TV unless they’re adopted as part of the official campaign.

      It’s scandalous the way the Tories are treating our EU citizens.
      A Polish plasterer I know is extremely bitter about them. His English is excellent, as are his Scottish swearie-words, most of which are deployed before the words “David Cameron”. He blames him specifically for a lot of the anti-Polish feeling in the UK as a whole.

      Apart from the bread and the weather, Scotland seems pretty cool to him.

    174. Breeks says:

      Wouldn’t it be poignantly ironic if the SNP was to be outmanouvered on constitutional sovereignty by a Scottish equivalent of UKIP, where a single option pressure group managed to capitalise on popular frustration and exert disproportionate influence over a smug and arrogant Conservative party which believed itself able to contain its Euroskeptic rebels. The object of course not to demand exit from Europe, but demand we stay.

      I’m not saying its going to happen of course, but for as long as the SNP is soft on the issue of constitutional sovereignty, and heaven forbid plays the “reluctant Brexiteer” card, then who knows the extent to which the constitutional fundamentalists and ardent Europhiles who do not accept being taken out of Europe will be able to affect a UKIP style (let me stress style, not content) mini-coup on SNP policy the way UKIP successfully led the Tories by the nose to Brexit.

      I liked Nicola’s proposals. But I hope in earnest that the SNP firms up exactly which side of Brexit it actually stands, and whether it will fight to defend Scotlands sovereign Remain vote, or just milk Brexit for grievances as Scotland circles the drain without its constitutional life jacket of sovereignty.

      I was very moved by Alyn Smith’s standing ovation for declaring Scotland had not abandoned Europe. I wonder how that squares with abandoning Europe and constitutional sovereignty in lieu of a soft Brexit compromise of Customs Union and access to the single market. A soft brexit option I might add, which has yet to coalesce, and which the EU has yet to make credible.

      Maybe Nicola is on the case eh? Scottish Independence Party… Hmmm.

    175. TheWasp says:

      An excellent piece on Victoria Darbyshire, on the training initiative for refugee doctors in Scotland. They even mentioned several times that it was funded by the Scottish Government. It was an English reporter, so no bbc shortbread Scotland is shite in the article, very refreshing.

    176. Les Wilson says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker says

      Aye, you could be right!

    177. colin alexander says:

      Simple question.

      How many of the SNP’s policies just announced involve promoting Scottish Sovereignty or Scottish independence?

    178. louis.b.argyll says:

      Ken500 says.

      ‘SKy News are ignorant.’

      Ken500 puts it mildly..

    179. louis.b.argyll says:

      The SNP’s policies are designed to improve and deliver the powers held by the Scottish Parliament.

      Adjusting sovereign rights, Colin, would be reserved to the UK.

      Adjusting sovereign rights through Independence is the SNP’s raison d’etre AND EVERYONE KNOWS THAT TOO, Colin.

    180. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Louis / @Breeks
      I like your postings, and similar by Bob Costello in The National. The SNP need to be kept on their toes, and see the unrest in the Indy movement, lest they forgt their roots, though that is unlikely I think.

      We are however back to the reasons for Indy Ref 1 not being a YES, that’s the economy, currency and EU. With currency being easy, some background work on central bank and all it needs then is the decision by the SNP (to go for our own currency I hope), and the announcement: “Indy Scotland will have our own currency and central bank, and here’s the detailed costed plan”.

      The EU is also relatively easy I think, Davis and Barnier are and will be already discussing some kind of transition period for the UK which can then be easily adapted for Scotland after a YES vote before Brexit itself.

      I think Indy Ref 2 should be followed by a EU membership, maybe EFTA / EEA style multi-option referendum to confirm if the 62% still want to stay in the EU as an Independent Scotland. That should avoid splitting the YES vote for Indy Ref 2 itself.

      Which leaves the economy, and that at least has to be seen to be being addressed, hence part of the reason perhaps for the delay in formalising IR2, as well as waiting and seeing what Davis and his merry band get up to, including even the Tories cancelling Brexit, who know?

      I personally think this program is a good start on the economy, to replace an over-dependent oil economy, what better than an entrepreneurial green economy with investment where needed? So perahps the SNP ARE making the case for Indy after all, by creating the satisfactory condition for it in the public eye.

      So it could be that all the building blocks are now in play. There again, who knows?

    181. louis.b.argyll says:

      The inverted logic of denial,
      is everywhere.

    182. yesindyref2 says:

      Incidentally, the removal of the public sector wage cap is also a step in the right direction for the economy – and GERS. The state as a whole takes perhaps 50% of extra wages back in taxation, but also in terms of the increased wages being spent in the economy – the multiplier effect. And GDP which affects the deficit percentage. Something the UK Government doesn’t seem to understand at all in its state shrinking policies.

      Some of that extra tax money will stay in Scotland for the SG with the devolved income tax and half VAT, but the rest would or should be accounted for in GERS.

      Added to that the Scottish Parliament has a committee meeting about GERS itself, with the head of Fraser of Allander Institute – Graeme Roy – who headed up GERS itself for the SG, and Richard Murphy both being witnesses there (19th September). Should be interesting.

      So it could well be that all the Indy issues are being addressed in a quite efficient fashion, no razzmatazz. Who knew?

    183. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m not sure if proceeding straight to an EU ref would be the right timing. We have been kept in the dark about who we are, for a very long time. Perhaps a wee breather to give time for some self-reflection and critical assessment of our current position? “Walk Don’t Run”?

    184. yesindyref2 says:

      @CameronB Brodie
      A problem is the one-third split YES support who want Brexit and don’t like the EU. If it comes to the crunch – an Indy Ref assuming EU membership – which way will they vote, YES or NO?

      The other problem is that unless the EU-27 can see a short time-scale for a transitional period after a YES vote, they would be very unlikely to give one at all, in which case Scotland would be out of the EU, single market, customs market along with the rest of the UK, and that wouldn’t encourage previous NO-voting Remainers to vote YES this time.

      It’s a delicate balance, but the following EU Ref’s timing need not be immediate, it could be say a year, with Scotland transitioning in the EU and keep single market and customs pseudo-membership, while the case for the EU is built.

    185. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ah, I wasn’t aware of the stats., that does make things tricky. A pity that, as effective decision making rests on the realistic appraisal of reliable information. I hate it when ideologies and politics gets in the way of people making the best choices possible (i.e ones that are well informed and rational). Then again, I’m forgetting the BBC would only play a peripheral role in Scotland’s democracy, once we are independent. Better chance of a quality debate than, frankly. 😉

    186. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ CameronB: “bot”

      Haha! Oh jeezy peeps. Soz, man.

    187. CameronB Brodie says:

      Reluctant Nationalist
      Not a problem mate but what makes you think I’m gonna let you off easy. 🙂

    188. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 13:59,

      It’s an awkward situation, there’s no denying it. But the tendency in some quarters to “pragmatically” tend towards appeasing the yes-leavers in order to win indyref2 is seriously flawed, to my mind.

      You can just as easily lose yes-remainers sick of the betrayal of the EUref vote, lose all the potential no-remainers that the Phantom Power videos illustrate so powerfully, yet still not win back the supposed targets of the appeasement because their atavistic anti-immigrant instincts have been well-and-truly aroused, not least thanks to the toxic MSM.

      There is a serious danger of “alling between stools”, attempting to satisfy everyone and failing to satisfy anybody. Not a good place to be.

      There has to be some principle behind the case for indy, not more damned focus-group trimming. And if you’re a democrat, that has to start with the EUref result in Scotland.

      As to timing, even a year after indy would be far too soon for a new EUref. The EU has suffered too long from exactly the same problem as independence, a hostile media willing to distort and suppress, do whatever it takes to destroy what they have always viscerally hated. You can’t get over that in a short time, even if the nmedia environment in an iScotland were magically reformed overnight (as if!).

      What progressive supporters of independence (and I count myself as one) tend too often to forget is that most ordinary people aren’t anoraks, and simply want a tranquil and stable life, politically-speaking.

      To propose, with the best of intentions, or even merely imply, a kind of permanent revolution after independence, is absolutely fatal to getting the support of such people. They simply want a sensible and effective government that gets on with its job and leaves them to get on with their lives.

      They need to be convinced above all that independence, while untried and therefore somewhat risky, nevertheless offers them the best opportunity for the stability that they crave and which they won’t get in a very unstable and uncertain Brexittania.

      It’s a big enough ask to convince them to take that one step without overloading them with a whole lot of other issues as well.

      Step by step. The necessary changes will reveal themselves soon enough, and will have to be tackled. Just like any other normal country.

      In the meantime, argue hard for continuity and stability. It’s that which will win indy, not pie-in-the-sky hobby-horses.

    189. pitchfork says:

      I have just seen the editor of New Statesman post on twitter that Corbyn was right not to lead on immigration at PMQ as “Labour divisions would have been exploited” !

      Not – because other issues were more pressing. ***Don’t bring up the leaked immigration document beacuse defending immigrants risks the unity of the PLP***

      I’m aghast at this. This is utter cowardice.

    190. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ CameronB

      Nothing, man. Nothing makes me think that.

      Be gentle. 8-(

    191. Rock says:

      CameronB Brodie,

      “I found it a strange choice of language when Rock told me he “knew of my reputation on Wings”. I took it as awkward respect, at the time.”

      Let us see what exactly was said:

      (20th May – Becoming the squirrel):

      CameronB Brodie:

      “I’m not saying you are wrong though and I’m not trying to claim the intellectual high-ground. Simply stating facts.”


      “I know your record here.

      Unlike the usual suspects, you don’t hurl insults at anyone who has different views from you.

      If you re-read the particular post I had referred to, you will notice that the poster is trying to ask an “innocent” question to which she has already decided on a firm answer!”

    192. Rock says:


      “Rock thinks there will be a “snap brexit”…oh na sides…!!

      Quick, someone tell the EU Article 50 has been re written without them knowing ..!!!

      What a wally.

      Brexit CANNOT HAPPEN until 12:01 on the 1st April 2019 (fittingly).”

      We will soon see who the “wally” is when the UK team walks out of the negotiations without any deal, as has been their plan all along.

      For your information, the 2 year limit is the MAXIMUM time allowed. It could be done over with sooner if both sides agree.

    193. K1 says:

      This thread has two walloping wankers wading in with wearisome waffle.

      The rest of the thread is great.

      Carry on 😉

    194. CameronB Brodie says:

      Thanks for clearing that up. I was genuinely a bit puzzled at the time though.

    195. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      …IF both sides agree.

    196. Breeks says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      6 September, 2017 at 3:46 pm
      yesindyref2 @ 13:59,

      “….You can just as easily lose yes-remainers sick of the betrayal of the EUref vote, lose all the potential no-remainers that the Phantom Power videos illustrate so powerfully, yet still not win back the supposed targets of the appeasement because their atavistic anti-immigrant instincts have been well-and-truly aroused, not least thanks to the toxic MSM.”

      While I heartily agree with you, it isn’t the vote swing one way or the other which troubles me, but the various precedents being set, which we might find could be extraordinarily difficult to “un-set”.

      The primary such issue relates to the sovereignty of a Scottish vote. If that can be set to one side, just as Scotland’s 2016 Remain vote currently has been, then there is a dangerous precedent set whereby the Sovereign voice of Scotland, properly expressed through democratic majority, can be ignored both by Westminster and Holyrood. If that passes into history as an issue of no contest, then where does that leave the potency of any subsequent IndyRef? You will have just given Westminster the gift of precedent, where the sovereignty of Scotland effectively means nothing. It is no longer something we can take, we will have turned our sovereignty into something Westminster must concede.

      I can all too easily see Westminster contesting the issue of international recognition for an independent Scotland which cites the Declaration of Arbroath as the origin of our sovereignty, since that particular sovereignty can evidently be overruled, and QED, if it can be overruled, it cannot be a legitimate sovereignty, and our claim to be sovereign is thus fundamentally flawed.

      The secondary issue, and the one which grates with me just as much as the first, is the implicit failure to properly understand the absolute and binary nature of sovereignty. It exists, or it doesn’t. There are no degrees of sovereignty, it is an absolute condition, and it is mightily dangerous for our pro-Independence government to carry out its domestic affairs while refusing either to recognise our own sovereignty, or even worse, fail to defend it. I’m sorry, but I just cannot see this as anything other than gross constitutional negligence.

      The third issue is the sovereignty itself. If we dare to presume that Scotland needs a “new” sovereignty to be defined, not the ancient sovereignty by historic precedence, but by modern democratic principles, then Independence becomes the task of creating a whole new constitution. It is no longer the process of emancipation of Auld Scotland’s sovereign independence, which generations of our forefathers fought to create, defend, and die for. Quite simply, I don’t want Scotland to be the newest country in the world, I want Scotland to be properly recognised as one of the very oldest, and a long standing injustice put to rights.

      Does that matter? A new Scotland or an old one? Yes, I believe it absolutely does. It not only matters, but it is critical if we want to lay claim to our vibrant and colourful history and culture. I want the auld Scotland. The original and the best, the masterpiece. Not the “Sevco” Scotland created in a day by a ballot, which can thus be destroyed in a day by a ballot.

      I want our absurd medieval declaration of sovereignty, which wrote its own rules and was unique in all of Christendom, and set for all time in perpetuity, to be the sovereign constitution which Scotland is forever defined by. It seems to me a very valuable and honourable principle, and we Scots should see ourselves as tremendously fortunate to be so blessed.

    197. Wull says:

      Breeks @ 8.02 pm.
      Excellent post. Thoroughly agree. Thank you.

      If the Scottish people are sovereign, as I have no doubt most Yessers of 2014 agree that they are, then all of us who want independence have no option but to accept the Scottish Remain vote of 2016. We are even obliged to get behind it, no matter which side of the Leave / Remain debate we were on. If we don’t, it would mean we do not believe in the sovereignty of the Scottish people.

      This incidentally includes an affirmation of that further principle, namely that Scotland is not only a sovereign but a unitary state. It cannot be subdivided into parts. The shape it had when it entered into its union with England in 1707 is the shape it still has now. Which also happens to be the shape she had had ever since Orkney and Shetland became Scottish in the 15th Century.

      When the independence vote is finally won efforts will no doubt be made by Westminster to carve Scotland up, claiming that the bits of it that will have voted against independence should remain part of the UK. We have to be ready for this. Although it is self-evident that such claims are totally indefensible, on account of the long-established borders of Scotland and its long-standing and never-subverted unitary nature (six centuries are a long time), we should not expect the government of our southern neighbours to be either generous or rational in defeat.

      Meanwhile, in regard to Brexit, I think the SNP will have to return very soon to their accustomed clarity. It used to be that we always knew that what we would get when we voted SNP was what was written on the SNP can, but on Brexit they definitely did fudge the issue.

      I do not think a genuinely convincing and rational argument can be put up to justify what the SNP leadership did when in regard to Brexit it compromised both the principle of the Scottish people’s sovereignty and their own long-standing ‘Scotland in Europe’ policy. They can say the move was well-intentioned, and they can point to pragmatic reasons why they thought it was the best thing to do in the circumstances, but that is no justification.

      There is no justification for compromising such fundamental principles for the sake of expedient, or on account of some speculative calculation. This is not because that calculation might turn out to be wrong and can easily backfire, as this one seems to have done. Rather, it is because fundamental constitutional principles must always be respected. Even – indeed especially – when it seems to those in power that these principles do not, in a given incidence, suit their immediate goals and purposes.

      So too with policies which have been proposed to the public, and which the voting public have taken into account when they cast their ballots. ‘Scotland in Europe’ meant full European membership for the SNP, not merely staying in the customs union etc. In terms of the SNP’s own constitution, I can’t say much becaue I am not a member, though I have consistently SNP for decades. But I doubt very much – please correct me if I am wrong – that the leadership was entitled to change or compromise the Party’s clearly stated pro-EU stance without passing through their membership, as represented in conference.

      That this was done when the sovereign Scottish people had voted to remain fully in Europe, as they clearly did in 2016. This should have been taken by the SNP as endorsing their long-established, publicly stated policy. Trying to calculate how much of the pro-Remain vote was anti-independence, and how much pro-, should not have been a consideration. The Scottish people had stated their option, which should have demonstrated to the SNP the kind of independence they should be aiming at, namely ‘independence in Europe’. It would have been very easy to do so, since that was already their policy anyway.

      Instead …

      And to think that so many of the ‘calculations’ on which the proposed compromising of basic principles and policies was based were so quickly undone, when Mrs May called her unexpected election. And everything unravelled.

      The whole house of cards came tumbling down. That’s what is always likely to happen when you listen to too many focus groups: you lose your focus! Because you forget the most basic principles, on which the whole thing is founded. Don’t play with the electorate: they are not fools. If you tell them you are going to do something – like keep Scotland in Europe – you have to do it. Especially after they endorse your policy. And don’t ever compromise on fundamental constitutional principles, the first and most important of which in Scotland is that the people are sovereign.

      That is not the case in England. There the parliament, more specifically, according to the jargon, sovereignty rests not with the people but with ‘the Queen in Parliament’. Funnily enough, when May said ‘Brexit means Brexit’, she was acting on the Scottish notion of popular sovereignty (though I doubt very much that she believes it, though she will do when it suits her). And the Scottish leadership at Holyrood acted as if the English principle, which ultimately means that those holding power are sovereign, was true. Strange paradox, indeed.

      I do not want this post to sound as if it is anti-SNP, or anti-Nicola Sturgeon. I think a mistake has been made, potentially a serious one, but I also think it can and will be corrected. I remain convinced that voting SNP is the only viable and realistic way to achieve independence, and I will continue to do that. I also acknowledge that Nicola Sturgeon remains the best politician available to lead the SNP, and achieve that end. She is also much more impressive than the leaders of any of the other parties in Scotland or indeed in the UK, and that by a country mile.

      It is understandable that she did not want anything like a hard border to emerge between Scotland and England. (But even Westminster does not want such a thing to happen with the Irish Republic either.)

      Also that she wanted to be (and not just appear) as reasonable as she possibly could, in dealing with the Westminster government, and she undoubtedly has been. Far more reasonable than many of us might have wanted. (But even so, when she does finally go for independence and set a date for the vote, she will still be accused by all the braying Unionists of being unreasonable.)

      I can also grant that she did genuinely see it as her duty to make safeguarding the economic welfare of all Scots her top priority once it was clear that Brexit was really going to happen. Even if that meant temporarily sacrificing some opportunities for a quick independence vote that had emerged, she was trying to be economically responsible.

      I can also understand that she calculated that the chances of winning a new independence vote would be slim, if it came too quickly.

      I can even see that, despite the serious setback caused by Mrs May’s snap election (as referred to above), some of these calculations could still turn out to be beneficial to the independence cause in the long run. I certainly hope so. In politics, the kaleidoscope is always turning, and how the pieces fall at any given moment, and to whose advantage, can never be forecast with any certainty. And when a new scenario occurs, another turn happens, and it all changes into something else again.

      I am still confident that, come what may, Scotland’s independence will happen. I am hoping that Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP do eventually turn round and say: we tried our best, but we can’t betray the Scottish people, who voted to remain in Europe, and it has now become clear that the only way to achieve that objective is for that same Scottish people to vote for independence. If Scotland does vote for independence we will guarantee, as an absolute, that Scotland will do so within the customs union etc., with free movement of goods, people and services.

      Moreover, if an SNP government is returned at the next Scottish election, and by then a Yes vote had been returned and we are an independent country, we will be applying to the EU for retention of, or admission to full membership of the EU.

      Meanwhile, immediately a pro-independence vote is secured, we will apply to the EU to keep us fully in Europe, with full citizenship rights, pending the outcome of the next Scottish parliamentary elections. If the next Scottish government is in favour of full membership of the EU, we will then apply for this.

      That next Scottish government could be formed by the SNP alone – which would be best – or by the SNP in collaboration with another Party in favour of full European membership. I cannot imagine that a Farage-style anti-European party would ever win in Scotland. Even at least one or even all of the former Unionist parties would come back round to their 2016 pro-EU stance, or at least become pro-customs union etc.

      I am no politician, and certainly no reliable calculating machine as far as politics is concerned. But does it not sound at least in some way plausible? Over the next four years …

      Of course, I can’t pretend to predict what that ever-turning political kaleidoscope will do. Though I still think, whatever setbacks there may be along the way, it’s continuing to turn very much in our direction.

    198. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Breeks @ 20:02,

      Sorry for this late response – I’m just catchin’ up again – but my understanding (albeit limited) is that English Law is built on precedence (and that Erskine May stuff is continually being thrown aroundto justify it) but Scots Law is based on Roman Law instead, not precedence.

      Maybe someone else who is more knowledgeable about such matters can shed more light on this subject, but precedence can’t have effect in Scotland. So I believe your prime concern is unfounded.

      By treaty agreement, Scots Law is not subservient to English Law, despite what many people down south seem to believe after many years of Scottish quiescence. In any constitutional standoff, however, that difference must be addressed.

      And guess what, again by treaty agreement, we are supposed to quit the EU “according to constitutional requirements”. So far at least, the UK Supreme Court has simply funked this issue, perhaps because it has never been challenged sufficiently directly on the matter.

      Instead the SC, out of a natural reluctance not to stray too far from juridical convention in a two-nation UK without any written constitution, has funked the issue and explicity proposed a political solution, which leads directly to the requirement for another independence referendum. In order to settle the issue one way or the other.

      Perhaps like you, I would have preferred a more robust constitutional challenge, but there’s no denying that a new referendum win for independence would definitely settle the matter.

      Which is why the BritNats are now so scared of having to face up to that challenge.

    199. Breeks says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      7 September, 2017 at 12:21 am
      Breeks @ 20:02,

      “Sorry for this late response – I’m just catchin’ up again – but my understanding (albeit limited) is that English Law is built on precedence (and that Erskine May stuff is continually being thrown aroundto justify it) but Scots Law is based on Roman Law instead, not precedence….”

      Sorry for the even later response. Not checking in as much as I used to.

      You’re correct Robert, but that distinction only exists where there is a recognition of sovereignty. If we forfeit our grasp on sovereignty, then Scots Law becomes as impermanent as any normal Treaty or established convention, and will find itself as “dispensable” as Sewell. By establishing the UK’s Supreme Court, Westminster has already fired the opening salvo. Scots law is already having its walls undermined.

      People can whine about this being boring and tiresome it all they want, but trust me, Sovereignty is EVERYTHING, and the SNP better wise the feck up quickly and resolve themselves to defending every inch of it.

    200. Ian McCubbin says:

      the evidence file is huge on why we are better off as an independent country. its up to politicians in Holyrood to enact a path to independence via UN. there is a programme of sctrong government policy for 2017/18 and action for a national investment bank.
      we only need stronger links with a few more countries and we have in place virtally all some states have who are indpenedent states.
      So when will we call it?

    201. ItsAYesFaeGlesga says:

      We’re not swimming, we’re sinking… and the UK is the ship.

      Difference is, Nicola Sturgeon is handing out life jackets and Theresa May is handing out bricks.

      Which one you gonna grab onto? I know what one I’m choosing.

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