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We’d quite like this explained

Posted on July 04, 2016 by

BBC Scotland is hosting a live TV debate tonight.

bbceudebate

Despite having an even number of participants, the panel is split 3:1 in favour of Remain and 3:1 against independence (surely the biggest specifically Scottish issue likely to arise from the Brexit vote, and which several polls in the last couple of weeks now show is backed by a majority of voters).

Half of the debaters are also Labour politicians, which means that the third-placed party which got 22% of the vote in this May’s election has as much representation as two parties who got 69% between them.

We’ve been racking our brains for a couple of hours trying to work out a way in which such a multiply-skewed line-up could be justified (other than flat-out trolling), and we’ve got nothing. Does anyone have any ideas?

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    1. 04 07 16 18:56

      We’d quite like this explained | speymouth

    186 to “We’d quite like this explained”

    1. Ian Brotherhood says:

      And what of the audience make-up?

      Let’s look out for familiar faces…

      Who’s the Edinburgh dude who always crops up?

      Surely they won’t be daft enough to include him again?

    2. jimnarlene says:

      BBC bias, obviously.

    3. Why bother to participate? Perhaps I’m just being petulant (or naive) but if NO-ONE representing independence went on would that not rather put a spanner in the works?

    4. I just hope they aren’t going to have that usual group of people who claim not to have enough information to have any opinion on anything. They’re a total waste of audience space.

    5. Alan Monaghan says:

      To Robert Knight:

      Can you imagine how they would spin that one?

    6. Mark Russell says:

      I wrote last week that another referendum is being touted in Whitehall asking the UK electorate whether they wished to remain part of the U.K. on the condition that the U.K. Retains full EU membership. The result would probably reflect the bias on the panel fairly accurately.

    7. Bob Mack says:

      Add to this the fact they pulled the plug on a member of the SNP participating on Question Time last Thursday and you begin to see a pattern here.

    8. Morva Wortley says:

      The clue is in the name. British Broadcasting Corporation.

    9. Chas says:

      Noted this earlier but I doubt it matters. If Jackie Baillie is on the panel, the viewing figures will be zero.

    10. Lollysmum says:

      Flat out trolling it is then!

      No such thing as balance via the BBC. Time they were gone back to London where they belong.

      The alternative is to cancel your TV licence. Believe me, there is life after rejecting state propaganda beamed into your living rooms. Don’t miss it one bit 🙂

    11. Marcia says:

      The Head of BBC News for Scotland – not in Scotland as he lives in London, seem along with his editor to take a London-centric view of politics.

      There should have been an equal number of pro-EU & Indy versus anti-Indy and EU. I am sure they would have found 2 for each view point quite easily. These voices could easily come from outwith the political parties. If there is an audience I am sure it will be at least 75% anti-independence. Shall we look for the usual suspects in the audience? I for one will not be watching.

    12. Jim Watson says:

      I was travelling to Edinburgh the other day just after the referendum and that ex MP Tom Harris was sitting on the bench next to me in Queen Street station. And not one person came up to shake his hand to say thanks for all the work he put into getting us out of Europe…I wonder why that was?

      Nice to see he is picking up some punditry on the beeb though…not!

    13. Thepnr says:

      The only way to defeat the bias BBC is to starve them of YOUR cash.

      Don’t watch and don’t pay the telly tax. The lying BBC is the biggest troll to ever inhabit this planet. Best ignore.

    14. Papadox says:

      Tells you all you nead to know about EBC. Vince frae Hull will be leading aff the well balanced audience. EBC the English state broadcaster now on full anti jock throttle. They are determined we will remain part of ENGERLAND, in their opinion.

    15. Walter Scott says:

      who voted for Tom Harris? Since he was horsed at the last election he’s never been far from a studio. Is he on the dole?

    16. Vestas says:

      We have to simply suck it up & carry on.

      None of us expect the BBC to be anything other than biased towards England/London.

      However the vast majority of the people we need to change their minds watch the BBC.

      Boycott the BBC and they’ll just “empty-seat” the SNP – as in “SNP refused comment/participation”. Think that will help peeps?

      The good reverend needs (IMHO) to have a think about some other “little books” to keep things ticking along until the trigger is pulled.

      I’d like to see a “Wee EU Book” comparison between Norway/Scotland in 1970 until present day – reason is that one country is outside the EU and one is inside but managed by others. Both have embarrassments of natural energy resouces.

      I think readers might find it interesting – whether they are pro-EU or not.

      Obviously the Wee EU Book can cover a lot more than that 🙂

    17. David Mills says:

      They may have been pushed for time and thus called around there relees for help with guests.

    18. I’ll watch Emmerdale on ITV instead. There is no pretensions there.

    19. sinky says:

      BBC’s idea of political balance only extends to Leave and Remain never to For and Against independence which is irrelevant in their London mind set..

      It is incredible that frequently no SNP or pro indy political commentator appears on BBC political / current affairs programmes when Scottish politics is discussed.

      The yoons seem to forget that the SNP / Indy has roughly 50% support in Scotland but this is NEVER reflected in their output / panels.

    20. ScottishPsyche says:

      The BBC know full well that Brexit in Scotland is seen through the prism of Independence. They know exactly what they are doing and they really do not care.

    21. I think Fiona hyslop should refuse w do not need 2 labour rrepresentatives

    22. Andrew Morton says:

      You just need to understand BBC Scotland’s mindset. They see this as the Scottish head of the successful Leave campaign plus a member of each of the three main parties.

      The fact that it trolls the Remain/independence side is a bonus.

    23. R-type Grunt says:

      I blame the SNP for taking part in this type of programme and thus lending it credibility. Will they ever learn?

    24. msean says:

      One not to watch.Total bias on the cards. Must think we’ve slept through the last few years.

    25. Alex McArthur says:

      So no hope of a Labour defection to pro indy then? 😉

    26. Tam Jardine says:

      Can you imagine them putting 2 SNP representatives on? Inconceivable.

      I would complain but they will justify it by saying they have a balance between leave and remain, and a balance between pro indy and unionist. They have no shame.

      We need to stop looking at the BBC as an organisation that is failing to be impartial and start looking at it as an organisation that is succeeding in expressing it’s partiality. Why do the SNP participate?

      anyone reading this pro-indy should walk out 5 mins in and disrupt proceedings including Fiona Hyslop. Or ask Glenn Campbell how they can possibly justify the partiality of their selection.

      Melville summed up how I feel:

      “To the last, I grapple with thee; From Hell’s heart, I stab at thee; For hate’s sake, I spit my last breath at thee.”

    27. Auld Rock says:

      I feel another protest utside PQ coming on. Pity I’m so far away.

      Auld Rock

    28. Lochside says:

      No surprise there then…but Fiona Hyslop?…yet another own goal SNP when it comes to these Beeb fit-ups.Personally, I wish they’d tell the BBC to go f*CK themselves unless a Green or similar was lined up along with her.

    29. Janet says:

      Ah, I think someone was referring to Dr Scott Arthur, of Heriot-Watt University…Labour activist, and expert on bridge failure but not PFI school walls! In the audience?

    30. Mary McCabe says:

      About the only honourable thing about the unedifyng debates the various channels held during the EU campaign was that they ignored party affiliation and took care to have balanced panels of Remain and Leave, whether these were SNP, Labour, Tory or UKIP. Sometimes you had Jim Sillars pitted against a Remain SNP person.

      However now they think giving equal publicity to the arguments they don’t support is too risky – they might actually win. So back to censorship.

    31. Geoff Huijer says:

      The BBC is the biggest obstacle to independence.

      Unfortunately loads of people will watch this.

    32. karmanaut says:

      And now a question from Braden Davy…
      “Scotland is shit, isn’t it?”
      “Yes.”
      Moving on, we have a question from that ex-tory candidate lady…
      “Given that scots are useless, what are the dangers of independence?”
      “Well, good question..”

      I’m not going to watch it.

    33. Brian says:

      I’ve submitted my complaint to the BBC. As I’ve said before, it won’t do any good, but it makes me feel better.

    34. Coolheads Prevail says:

      A spokesdrone for the BBC said, “We don’t have to justify ourselves to anyone. Shurrup n vote for the Labour man.”

    35. Brian Powell says:

      A likely approach on the Panel show tonight will be to say the SNP didn’t do enough for staying In. Try to put the SNP on the back foot. Nicola would cut that approach to pieces, but some others aren’t so quick.

    36. galamcennalath says:

      Hey, it’s the BBC, grand masters of flat out trolling.

      Trolling on behalf of the Union and the London Establishment is their raison d’être (as we say in the EU).

      There was a time, not so many years ago, where the BBC tried to hide its bias. It approached the mission with a degree of subtlety.

      Not now. This is the end game, and they will be completely blatant in their tactics.

    37. Oscar Taime says:

      If they wanted ex-politicians for leave they could have had Jim Sillars for the Indy-out side.

      This is just one more nail in the credibility coffin.

      Right enough at this points it’s so full of nails you could have Ruthie come round & sit on it for a photo shoot.

    38. Almannysbunnet says:

      The audience figures would have been low anyway but its on at the same time as Andy in Wimbledon, assuming it’s a 5 setter. So this programme will go largely unnoticed. As for the audience, given the amount of information you have to supply there is plenty of opportunity for the BBC to weed out anybody with the slightest sympathy in a direction not of their choosing.
      https://archive.is/4Kp4l

      I’m sure somebody will keep an eye on them to see what they’re up to but as soon as I see Thomkins on anything I’m off to my shed.

    39. Dr Jim says:

      Can I ask each member of the panel in turn to explain what happens after Brexit..Right times up let’s all monster Fiona Hyslop about Independence

      It’s not three to one it’s four to one everybody’s forgetting the so called presenter

      I wonder what the questions will be Oil,Oil,Oil,Oil,Oil,Oil
      respect the vote respect the vote respect the vote shouty shouty shouty See we told you the SNP was Baad

      And that’s all we have time for

    40. Clapper57 says:

      Unfortunately tonight I am doing selfies of my arse so will miss this.

    41. Thepnr says:

      Are you happy that YOUR telly tax pays these presenters almost double a lifetimes wage for an average earner EVERY year?

      “Other high earners at the BBC include: Match of the Day presenter Lineker (on a reported £2m); Norton (just under £2m); and Clare Balding (as much as £2m). None of these figures have been confirmed by the BBC.”

      https://archive.is/cgALy

      Ever license payer in Scotland gives the BBC the right to talk down to them, the right to walk over them and the right to pollute their minds with Unionist government propaganda.

      The last four year deal between the BBC and the Scottish football was worth £6.2 million, a new deal signed recently is worth £10.6 million.

      You can expect the likes of Lineker to rake in the same over this next four years. Well, is that your idea of value for money?

      Meantime the grassroots of the Independence movement scrabble around trying to raise money for supporters of our cause who aim to further our cause. I know how I’d rather see any cash of mine spent. Put your money where your mouth is and the BBC is not a mouth for us.

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/10-000-more-flags-for-yes#/

      I despise the BBC, there is no bigger enemy of democracy for Scotland beamed daily into your living rooms and into your subconscious. The BBC are our enemy No 1 and the main reason for the Vinces of this world.

    42. carjamtic says:

      Suck it up people,you know the score,the state broadcaster will transmit their views to the many and there will be no feedback,just who do you think your are,OFCOM ?

      Do as suggested,cancel payments,do not feed the trolls.

      😉

    43. Nana says:

      So glad I don’t pay for their propaganda. My purse has more dosh in it and my BP has lowered considerably. What’s not to like.

    44. Bruce says:

      I was taping it tonight to watch after work but not going to bother, will just be a hate fest and with Bailllie being on a vacuous hate fest. It really is time for the SNP to just stay away from these programmes, if all YES people did that the message would eventually get across no matter what they said about it. The viewing audience would very quickly get bored with the zero arguments.

    45. mogabee says:

      Tonight!

      Gosh darn it..I have something very important to do..

    46. heedtracker says:

      We’re ruled by scumbags now threatening deportation for foreigners. FOR FCUKES SAKE. So tonight is just ongoing ramping up of BBC UKOK attack propaganda from the Pacific Quay crew.

      Withdraw SNP. State why, and just let them get on with it. Prof Tomkin’s has been an MSP for a few weeks, so why he’s there is another teamGB mystery. Great kisser though:D

    47. galamcennalath says:

      OT Looks like there may be a UK property crash. 🙁

      First a Singapore bank suspends lending on London property. Then Standard Life suspends trading in UK property fund.

      If only IndyRef1 had turned out differently, eh?

    48. Thepnr says:

      More than 95% of Gibraltarians voted for Remain guess what? they have there own public broadcaster the GBC and scrapped the license in 2007.

      Coincidence? Naw.

    49. Truth says:

      It’s quite simple really.

      Too many people in Scotland still pay the TV tax. That is tacit approval of BBC Scotland’s output.

      If you don’t like it, don’t watch it and don’t pay the tax. They will understand when very few are paying/watching.

      You don’t even need to break the law, just change your viewing habits.

    50. Jimbo says:

      Maybe because Pacific Quay is Labour in Scotland’s sub-office and Baillie and Harris just happened to be hanging about when the programme was mooted?

    51. Bingo Wings Over Scotland says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood:
      Good shout, that would be Call Kaye favourite “Scott from Edinburgh”.

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/dead-ringers/

    52. heedtracker says:

      If their mass deportation threats are not up for debate, it wont be much of a surprise.

      Too poor, wee, stupid, no oil, old kevrage toryboy types will be leaping about like a flee on their couchs tonight, screaming hit them with my black hole of black £18bn graph black hole, just like Greece, over and over.

      Meanwhile BBC England normalise fascism.

    53. Hugh Kirk says:

      With windbags Harris and Bailey making up half the panel presented by the BBC………I can guarantee I won’t be watching.

    54. HandandShrimp says:

      I can the see the BBC looking at your breakdown and think to themselves “Feck! how did we give so much space to the Nats”.

      I can’t say I am overly surprised at the panel composition. The BBC is already in full campaign mode against Indyref 2 – they are crapping themselves.

    55. yesindyref2 says:

      Does anyone have any ideas?

      Sigh. Some people just aren’t paying attention. The BBC has the bestest research department in the whole wide world, and is always 100.9% accurate which is why BBC World News is watched the whole world over with huge respect and attention, including as it claims by herds of somnolent elephants and dodos, native to Australia.

      What has happened is that their research department has established that Baillie is an undercover agent for the SNP, Tom Harris is a painter with RISE, Adam Tomkins is someone’s girlfriend and a follower of Tito’s communist party. So in fact it turns out the BBC are actively discriminating against the Labour and the Conservative party, while totally ingoring the LibDems.

    56. ScottishPsyche says:

      I suspect this debate had to include Tompkins in his capacity as resident Unionist/BBC constitutional expert. As he was for Remain that rules out a Tory on the Brexit side.

      That would be too much for BBCSLab.

      Jim Sillars as a Brexit rep would mean they would had two Indy reps if they included a Green or another SNP so they went with two SLabbers!

      You could not make it up.

    57. Breeks says:

      Its probably not wise to boycott the BBC, because their propaganda goes by unchallenged and your non-appearance put down to being highly strung or ducking awkward questions.

      Its a live event, so what if Fiona Hyslop interrupted the agenda and openly asked for the make up of the panel to be explained live and on air. Ask the question, when was the last time there were two SNP voices on any debate? Put the chair on the spot. Ask whether its fair for the pro independence body to have a quarter of the time on mic, and the anti independence body have their time truncated? And when they’ve whined and blustered, just ask, wouldn’t it be easier just to balance their panel? Why are you afraid of a balanced panel, or even a pro indy majority panel? There have been more than enough anti indy panels.

      Do that for every programe. Make it routine. Yes there’s a risk it will be counter productive, but the viewing audience might eventually wonder about the make up of the panel without the prompting.

      I am vociferous in my objections about the BBC, but if they are spoiling the YES agenda, then the YES spokesperson has to start spoiling the propaganda agenda and giving them the awkward time.

      Then too, if there is a balanced panel, applaud the fact. Draw attention to the issue.

      Othereise this is shaping up like 2014 YES all over again.

      Personally, I think the way to confound the BBC is to circumvent it. Scotland needs live broadcast media from a different source. Screw the BBC. If this is the only broadcast media made available to the population, its the media they are going to digest. You either contest the uphill battle, or you provide an alternate broadcast. Preferably both.

    58. ahundredthidiot says:

      racking your brains…

      why?….its the BB bloody C

    59. Tinto Chiel says:

      I can only suggest heedtracker tries to improve the odds by locking his Slovene girlfriend in the loo while she’s putting on her false eye-lashes.

      You know it makes sense.

    60. Robert Peffers says:

      @Rev Stu says, “At least it’s gender balanced”.

      Are you really, really sure about that, Rev Stu?

    61. Macart says:

      Harris, Baillie and that Tomkins fella?

      I’m clipping my toenails or something…

      The BBC in a time of crisis, utterly irrelevant and determined to add to peoples fear and misery.

    62. Apollo says:

      It’s all in the name BBC, A.K.A. the British Broadcasting Corporation. They wouldn’t be doing their job and abiding by their mandate if they didn’t allow the views of the majority of the British people to be heard their programming to be heard.

      Of course, they have a mandate to represent views of all Britions, no matter how diverse they are. I wonder if they have this balance with this programme?

      P.S. They aren’t there no Green party representatives on the programme?

    63. MajorBloodnok says:

      I see “the EU is bad because of the effects on the fishing industry” will be the BBC’s meme tonight. Featured on Reporting Scotland just now and appeared on news website 10 minutes ago.

    64. R-type Grunt says:

      Caron Lindsay will be in the audience. Any takers?

    65. I consider all BBC staff to be Fifth Columnists Up Here. They are part of the problem. Fiona Hyslop should withdraw, and the Pro EU/Independence 25% of the audience walk out live on TV.
      This fucking farce has got to stop.
      Sectarian Nasty Professor Adam We Arra Peepil Tompkins has never been elected to office; yet he was on the Smith Commission and is now getting full time MSP wages while moonlighting at Uni.
      History will laugh at us if we allow this elitist corrupt little Scottish sub Branch of the Holy London Establishment to get away with this any longer.
      We must break away from England now. There is no turning back.
      Are we to believe than NONE of the BBC staff are pro EU/Independence? Is it an entry requirement ?

    66. heedtracker says:

      British troops to be deployed in eastern Europe, says minister
      ITV
      2 hours ago

      Michael Fallon believes the move will provide ‘reassurance’ against Russian aggression.

      Endless UKOK war, threat of mass deportation, Prof Tomkins nutters about to give it UKOK shit in a £400 million glass box of BBC garbage.

      If mass deportations start, what happens to the people who wont go? Gestapo style goons in suits with armed cops bashing down doors, dragging kids out.

    67. Nana says:

      Caron Lindsay

      Currently Treasurer of the Scottish Party, Scottish Lib Dem Women and ASLDC Exec member and Returning Officer for Liberal Youth. Caron is co-editor of the Liberal Democrat Voice blog. She is the FE’s liaison to the East Midlands and Liberal Democrat Humanists and Secularists

    68. Stoker says:

      Breeks wrote:
      “Its a live event, so what if Fiona Hyslop interrupted the agenda and openly asked for the make up of the panel to be explained live and on air….Put the chair on the spot…..if they are spoiling the YES agenda, then the YES spokesperson has to start spoiling the propaganda agenda and giving them the awkward time.”

      Couldn’t agree more! No single approach will defeat the BBC.
      Our movement needs a multi-pronged attack on the BBC and one of those prongs has to be the SNP getting wise to them and making sure the BBC’ actions are being exposed in a very public manner.

      The BBC
      http://archive.is/Axc34

    69. Another Union Dividend says:

      Seems fair enough to me two Scots and two English debating Scotland’s future.

      Sneaky Glenn Campbell on BBC news trailer saying there is Tory, SNP and Labour MSP plus Tom Harris from the Leave campaign with no mention of his political affiliation.

      That’s the BBC dupe those who are not political anoraks.

    70. Vronsky says:

      The bottomless stupidity of the English establishment is a major contributor to the independence project. Look at the result of their efforts up until now! The unionists are making the case for Scottish separation faster, harder and better than any nationalist could ever hope to do. Sit on your hands, Rev.

    71. MJack says:

      I agree with Mr Knight that with this bias the 1 yes independence supporter should pull out at the last minute instead of being trolled by all the other union at any cost, panelists!

    72. Col says:

      The sooner a massive campaign to highlight the bias the better. We need the snp or some in it plus many other leading folk from different organisations to come out and say enough is enough.
      There would be an instant crisis at Pacific Quay.
      The campaign should be one which either threatens non payment or is spearheaded by it.

    73. call me dave says:

      I see auntie has postponed the debate until the tennis over.
      Not too long:

      FGS! Aussie goes walk about shock… gets Kyrgios and Kyrgioser!

      A shame throws the game away with a chip on shoulder.
      Murray in good form.

      Auntie says “C’mon Andy! 🙂

    74. Petra says:

      I’m totally scunnered with BBC bias and won’t be watching. The usual three against one or four against one if you include the presenter.

      I don’t advocate SNP MPs boycotting BBC programmes but when it’s as blatant as this they should tell them to stuff it.

      On the otherhand when the red and blue Tories are seen to unite, once again, to attack the SNP it may prove to be counterproductive and harden resolve.

    75. HandandShrimp says:

      It could just descend into a Tom vs Jackie death match as a tribute act to Labour’s self harm thing that they seem to have psychologically become trapped in.

    76. Clootie says:

      Obvious… no appetite for a second Referendum in Scotland

    77. Iain More says:

      So three rabid right wing Scot hating Brit Nat nutters against the ever so gentle Hyslop. BBC defending the corrupt UK to the bitter end.

    78. schrodingers cat says:

      agreed that the snp shouldnt boycott the bbc

      but fiona can always get up and leave the stage in protest at the bias….

      its live, they cant do anything about that

    79. Robert Graham says:

      It might be a little early but Jenne freeman would have been my choice for the SNP spot on the panel that slag bag Tomkins in the job for five minutes having come fitth and only there because of the stupid voting system the list system of no hopers, having two labour mouthpieces on is bloody fraudulent and a total insult to peoples intelligence but then again it’s the bbc anyone surprised?

    80. Col says:

      Would probably be more embarrassing if an audience member called them out on the usual bias then offered to buy all the other indy supporting members a drink and walked out . They probably wouldn’t be that many anyway because it’s a BBC picked audience.

    81. scotspine says:

      We need to press the Scottish Government about this. They need to counter the BBC somehow, or we will see defeat again.

    82. heedtracker says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      4 July, 2016 at 7:13 pm
      agreed that the snp shouldnt boycott the bbc

      but fiona can always get up and leave the stage in protest at the bias….

      its live, they cant do anything about that

      But that would look petty. SNP just have to state publicly, balanced debate, both sides equal representation or its not an actual debate, so thanks but no thanks. Who knows, maybe the ranks of UKOK placemen in BBC Scotland might actually give balance a go. Ha!

    83. Thepnr says:

      Wings have been embarrassing the BUM media for a few years now. Time I think to really turn out attention to the most corrupt and effective media the Onionists have.

      The flipping BBC. Here is an example of Why China is wary of the referendum from the lying BBC just a week out from the referendum.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEJLScyl4wk

      It’s fronted by a proud Scot but though so we should respect that.

      This is typical of BBC output in their Scottish region. Starve them of oxygen, cut off their money. Don’t pay the telly tax in order that they can produce this kind of rubbish and obvious propaganda.

      I hope that Wings can focus much more on exposing the BBC lies, after all they are constantly lying. Plenty of material.

      Claire Balding is worth every penny of the reported £2 million a year by the way. She is friendly with the Head of State don’t ya know.

    84. thomaspotter2014 says:

      I’m good with flat out trolling.

    85. Iain More says:

      I wonder how they will explain the Chilcot whitewash at the BBC.

    86. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Janet (5.51) –

      ‘Dr Scott Arthur’.

      Cheers.

      Now I know why I couldn’t remember it – it’s one of those back-to-front names.

      We should’ve made up a bingo card of usual suspects…

      What about that dude who was ranting about Christ Almighty, frightening the bejayzuz out of a’body? It would be great if he resurfaced, cunningly disguised…as ‘Clare Lally’, ordinary born-again zealot.

    87. Stoker says:

      schrodingers cat wrote:
      “fiona can always get up and leave the stage in protest at the bias”

      But then again the BBC would just rightfully claim that both Hyslop and the SNP knew well in advance the make up of the panel. The SNP should be turning these trollfests down by issuing statements declaring their reasons for doing so and citing bias. They should make it absolutely clear that they will never appear on any show which does not have a balanced panel of guests. Question the BBC’ credibility and agenda at every turn.
      Simples!

    88. Tom Harris was/is very much a Blairite,

      with Tony he is part of `Labour Friends of Israel`,

      he voted with war criminal Tony Blair on destroying the once modern country of Iraq and bombing it back to the stone age,

      has he ever apologised to the people of Iraq?

      250,000 human beings,with families now dead because of lies by the Labour Government.

    89. silver19 says:

      I bet Tom Harris will mention the risks of Scottish Independence that the UK is Scotland’s biggest market. How about the other way leaving the EU is massive risk to the UK full stop (45% according to this https://fullfact.org/europe/where-does-eu-export).

    90. Clydebuilt says:

      Why do the SNP want to participate in BBC organised debates.

    91. Quakeawake says:

      I agree with many here that the time has definitely come for the SNP, as the governing party in Scotland, to get proactive about this.

      It’s not about pro-Indy and Unionism – I get that the SNP don’t want to be drawn into a slanging match about bias etc – it’s about the government of the country taking to task a state broadcaster which is very obviously not reflecting the nation’s will.

      What they need to keep pointing out is that the BBC is being irresponsible as the nation’s broadcaster. They are not representing the nation in a responsible manner. They need to keep repeating this over and over, on air, until everyone, even the great uninitiated whom the BBC rely upon to swallow their pigswill, gets the message. The BBC is being irresponsible.

      There is an example of this kind of behaviour from Radio Four’s World this Weekend from the Sunday after the EU Ref. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07h2v8d

      At 34mins15secs in, some Tory Leave tosser is asked about the petition that was started up by Remain voters in the aftermath of the referendum. Like the good tory he is, he’s keen to tell the people to fuck right off, but the point is, he starts off like this: “As the nation’s broadcaster, the BBC needs to be responsible about this”.

      Why is it Tories can do that, to suit their own agenda, but the SNP, who are responsible for governing this country in the face of the BBC’s utter contempt for the democratic will of the people of Scotland, utter not one word?

      This has to change.

    92. Tinto Chiel says:

      I don’t pay the BBC a penny but suspect that it will still be funded by the Establishment in any event. It has been the jewel in its Imperial propaganda crown, since the ghastly Britnat Reith spawned it in the Twenties.

      I feel the SG must have a plan to challenge it both tactically and strategically, otherwise all our irrefutable arguments and our overpowering presence on the doorstep may fail in Indyref2.

      Can any of us face that?

    93. Ruby says:

      I can’t imagine there will be many people tuning in the watch that programme.

      It’ll probably just be journalists who watch it for a story. They’ll pick out something one of the BritNats said on the show and turn it into a headline tomorrow.

      Anyone got any suggestion what that headline might be?

    94. Petra says:

      O/T

      200 people, many women and children, killed in Baghdad by Daesh. Any Western Government calling for a minutes silence? No? It’s not Orlando or Paris.

      What about Tony Blair? What’s he got to say about this? SORRY! No I didn’t think so and they just don’t seem to ‘get it’: Understand why we’re absolutely hated by millions Worldwide.

    95. One_Scot says:

      Pure flat out unadulterated Yoon trolling.

    96. Stoker says:

      @ Thepnr (7:19pm):

      Excellent! Well said! Who gave you access to my grey matter? I too feel we need to focus on discrediting and destroying the BBC. They are, always have been, and always will be our No1 enemy. They have far more viewers than the rest of the BUM put together has readers. We need organised multi-pronged campaigns against them and we need to be relentless.
      _____

      As for the should we/shouldn’t we turn up etc, there is a slight possibility that the SNP know what they’re doing and they’re expecting one (or more) of the panel to take the debate down a certain route and they’ve got Hyslop armed to the teeth ready to blow their guff to hell. Time will tell but i will not be watching. I’m counting salt grains!

    97. Bob Mack says:

      @Silver 19,

      Even if the English, and Welsh are Scotlands biggest market,which I doubt, if Scotland joined the EU ,then England would be taking a mighty bold step in putting an embargo on imports from an EU country. It would violate any trade deal they tried to cut with the EU.

      For Scotland it is a win /win.

    98. indymark2 says:

      During this years Burns Night, I wondered why the BBC never give us a big concert like they would do if Robert Burns was English.

      And you know what, we actually did get a big gala star studded Burns Night concert with all the bells and whistles…

      are you ready for the punchline?

      It was only shown on BBC Northern Ireland!

      Let that sink in.

    99. Ruby says:

      https://db.tt/TK51cVhi

      Anyone else getting this message?

    100. Stoker says:

      To any newcomers lurking, be aware of the con post at 7:54pm.
      Effijy is trying to con you into parting with your private details to an organisation which has previously done the dirty on our movement. Effijy is also very aware of that but continues to flog this lame duck. Your details will be taken from you and used for marketing purposes. Avoid private petition companies, they’re a con.

    101. davidb says:

      I think the SNP should decline to appear on these biased “Scottish” programs. The UK Government frequently declines to provide a spokesperson.

      Apart from encouraging an on the side of the underdog reaction, there is little point.

      I’d suggest going on UK wide programs however. At times those are better chaired, and our arguments are often put over well by big hitters in the party.

      But I don’t watch the TV any more – and don’t miss it. My DVD collection is growing. I see lots of good lectures on Youtube, and I deprive them of the propaganda tax. I don’t think I’ll ever go back to watching traditional TV actually. Its like discovering real chocolate or the Woodland’s Shish Mahal’s vegetable pakoras. Your life is enriched.

    102. Graeme says:

      Maybe Fiona should just sit on the panel and take the 5th amendment

      when asked any questions just say No Comment!

      Graeme

    103. Kenny says:

      The SNP needs to up its game.

      Refuse to take part and issue a well-written statement doing the BBC’s job for them in strict line with the BBC charter, pointing out that in accordance with European (international) standards…

      1. There should be two SNP, one Con, one Lab. Possible to be generous and substitute one Green for one SNP (or one Lib Dem for Lab, as both minority parties).

      2. There should be equal balance between Leave and Remain. Yes, Remain is more popular in Scotland, but Leave won.

      The SNP needs to rub in the European angle. Every example of BBC bias needs to be shown up with press statements pointing out how things are done in EUROPE.

      Similarly, examples of BBC bias, such as this, need to be compared to similar countries, like Venezuela, Iran, Bahrain, Belarus…

      Does Stu have to do EVERYTHING for the cause of Scottish independence? Come one, SNP, you have an income of £125,000 a month. We need you to be like Andy Murray, not like our footballers, who did not even show up at the main shindig…

    104. heedtracker says:

      Even if the English, and Welsh are Scotlands biggest market,which I doubt, if Scotland joined the EU ,then England would be taking a mighty bold step in putting an embargo on imports from an EU country. It would violate any trade deal they tried to cut with the EU.

      They couldn’t afford to stop trade with Scotland. C4 news there, Lloyd’s of London already planning moving to Europe, even before Brexit. They cant afford to wait during Brexit uncertainty or let alone wait for whatever toryboy world can get when/if they do the art 50 thing.

      Loyd’s boss’s are setting up out of London, in the EU and all to avoid 27 separate trade deals with the 27 separate EU member countries.

      Even in the EU ref uncertainty period run up, UK construction lowest point in June, for 7 years. Keep in mind how BBC freak show brainwashes us how the toryboys are meant to be great with your money and the economy.

      Telling the nation state of Scotland you’re not going to trade with them, isn’t credible.

    105. Tinto Chiel says:

      Ruby: yes. Refresh! If you don’t your comment will disappear.

    106. Robert Graham says:

      RUBY yep just got it but heard a few talking about it I didn’t know I could type so bleedn quickly

    107. Irma says:

      I don’t have a copy of the BBC charter, but if they are being so obviously and consistently biased, could they not be sued?

    108. call me dave says:

      Seems like same old: Since I tuned in.

      Tom Harris: UK is the biggest market hoax again.
      Seems to be the Unionist line and get out clause.

      Hyslop: Puts our international interests first and says T. Harris’s proposition is ridiculous as there will be trade with England.

      Lots of I’m for independence buts …

      Both sides of the EU ref was telling lies it was all about the Tory party infighting says a person in audience.

      Barnett loss, states audience member but ignores that we pay for all or most of Barnett and it’s money back.
      Also we wont be spending £m’s on Trident + All Oil and VAT etc ours.

      Theresa May: Most liberal of all the candidates Adam Tomkins.
      The audience laugh out loud.

      But won’t support her on immigration.

      I think the audience is being pretty fair overall and many supporting remain.

      Some are suggesting ‘leavers’ were sold a pig in poke.

      Geez! I’m nodding to what Jackie Baillie has just said…FGS!

      T. Harris has just said it was a ‘mistake’ to claim that all the extra monies would go into NHS and education but it’s a known unknown kinda thing! 🙂 Audience guffaws!

    109. David Stevens says:

      Jackie Baillie, she who was rejected at the ballot box but sneaks in through the backdoor of the list. What credible opinion can she have of Brexit or independence. Terrible selection of panelists by the BBC.

    110. Ruby says:

      https://archive.is/hAPiq
      Aug 2014

      Re Scotland’s ‘biggest’ market

      Strathclyde University research.

      ‘A study for the Economic and Social Research Council (ESRC) compares the trading integration of Scotland and the rest of the UK with that of Ireland and the UK. It concludes that there could be a 5% reduction in the Scottish economy’s output if Scotland were to reduce the extent of its integration to UK-Irish levels. That effect would be seen over two or three decades, so it may only mean about 0.1% reduction in trade each year.
      The research also points out that factors resulting from independence could compensate for that fall in output. The Scottish government has set out plans for growing the Scottish economy more strongly than the rest of the UK.
      Or there might be a boost to trade with the rest of the world. The same ESRC research points to evidence that trade between Scotland and the world beyond Britain has been constrained by such a close integration into the UK, and it suggests there could be compensatory growth there.’

    111. call me dave says:

      Funny how some members of the panel get to waffle on for ages but others find they are interrupted by Glen.

      Maybe you have to get more time if your a Prof about 1m: 30s.

      Hyslop tries to reply on Education and Glen’s in there within 30 sec but struggle on.

      Oh I smell something fishy!

    112. Katie says:

      Hahaha just watchin the tonight program on ITV about ‘what brexit means for you’. Basically, the verdict is… might be a bit dearer getting ur euros for your holidays but all good coz u can still get ur duty free. Hahaha oh dear!!

    113. Lochside says:

      For years now we have agreed on here that the BBC is the biggest threat to our move for Independence. The BBC led the lies that bombarded the Scottish people with the coup de gras being its live feed of Gordon Brown slck jawing his way through the ‘VOW’ in the week of the vote, in direct contravention of the PURDAH rule.

      Despite pleas for the SNP to take on the BBC, the ruling party has refused to do so, probably on the basis that it will alienate the potential NO to YES voting cohort. Therefore another approach is required.

      Could it be the time for the YES movement to re-activate and mobilise a Won’t Pay campaign in regard to the BBC Licence/tax in Scotland. By attacking the BBC financially and exposing its reputation for probity and balance as the total sham it is in the most public way, would it not destroy its control over Scotland’s people with its lies?

      It worked in the ’80s with the poll tax, it would work again. A united Scottish public refusing en masse to pay would be hard for the BBC to ignore or hide from the wider world. Civil disobedience is the accepted manner for democracies to be challenged over undemocratic actions by its leaders. The BBC is a state organ and represents and regulated by the State.

    114. heedtracker says:

      Safe as houses

      FT

      Last updated: July 4, 2016 6:55 pm
      Standard Life stops investors selling out of UK property fund
      Aime Williams

      Insurance and pensions heavyweight Standard Life became the first major company to warn it could move partly out of Scotland if Scots split from the United Kingdom, fuelling a political row over the financial impact of independence. The company, which has been based in Scotland for 189 years, revealed on Thursday that it had a contingency plan to partly move from Scotland, potentially putting 5,000 jobs at risk.

      Standard Life has been forced to stop retail investors selling out of one of the UK’s largest property funds after rapid cash outflows were sparked by fears over falling real estate values in the week after the UK’s vote to leave the EU.
      The £2.9bn commercial property fund will need to sell real estate to raise cash before any money can be redeemed. It is the UK’s third largest open-ended property fund for retail investors.

      The last property crash in the UK, just as the financial crisis started in 2007, was preceded by a wave of similar gatings by funds struggling to meet investor demands for cash. They led to firesales of property that added to the pressure on an already falling market.

    115. ClanDonald says:

      If I were a labour voter who voted no in the indyref but remain in the EU Ref, I’d be raging listening to Adam Tomkin’s arrogant, pompous, shut-up-and-do-as-you’re-told attitude.

      Keep up the good work, Adam, you’re doing the indy campaign’s job for us.

    116. Ruby says:

      Robert Graham says:
      4 July, 2016 at 8:12 pm

      RUBY yep just got it but heard a few talking about it I didn’t know I could type so bleedn quickly

      Ruby replies

      Do you think it’s the speed of the typing? 🙂
      I’m pretty speedy at the old touch typing hence all the typos.

      I thought it was the time between posts. The Scotsman had to introduce a time delay a few years ago when their forum was being spammed every 30seconds with posts in Chinese.

    117. Stoker says:

      Oh well, looks like the usual OT suspects have successfully knocked the momentum out of yet again another thread and important topic. Time for a Netflix movie!

    118. Lochside says:

      Ruby at 8.01…Yes I got that message, and my own message disappeared and I submitted another. I have contacted the REV…VERY SUSPICIOUS

    119. scotspine says:

      I’m with Lochside on this.

    120. call me dave says:

      O/T

      Admiral Lord West: Iraq invasion planned before Tony Blair told public

      http://archive.is/N2UcY

    121. Ian Mackay says:

      I think the idea of the pro-independence members of the audience walking out halfway through the show is a belter.

    122. Dr Jim says:

      If that debate was any more lightweight it would have floated away
      It’s all going to come down to one thing again YES or NO
      Them that hates us and them that don’t

      UK at all costs flags waving God save the queen
      Or Independence

      Wonder of wonders though Jackie Baillie sounded as though she’s almost persuaded to join our team

    123. Kenny at 8.05

      What a stupid and insulting post. As the SNP sweeps all before it despite massive and continuous anti SNP bias by virtually all the media it has “to raise it’s game”.
      Bullshit. Or just stupidity

    124. TJenny says:

      Ruby – the message you’re getting is from one of the sites ‘tronic elves who’s upgrading the server, He was on Stu’s tl last night saying how quickly the comments were appearing and asking Stuey when the comments slow down. Stu replied that there’s usually a lull between 3.30am and 4 am. 🙂

    125. heedtracker says:

      FT doesn’t archive.is, last half of this is pretty straight forward. Bit of an ivory tower plan though. They’re putting a lot on BBC brainwashing to convince England Brexit voters that they have left the EU, when they certainly have not

      “Unless a sincere Brexit campaigner wins the Conservative leadership election and becomes the next prime minister, the UK government can be expected to now take three steps to slow down the Brexit process in the hope (and perhaps expectation) that it does not happen.

      The first step has already happened: Mr Cameron snapped the tie between the referendum result and the Article 50 notification.

      The second step will be when the government says that the form of the decision will require some form of parliamentary vote: either a resolution or a motion, or even a fresh statute. Views vary among legal pundits on whether this is strictly necessary — my view is that it is not, and if the prime minister and cabinet had decided on referendum day to make an immediate notification, no court would have quashed the decision or injuncted him from making the notification. But it is a convenient view for a procrastinating government to adopt, and the result of any parliamentary vote cannot be taken for granted by leave supporters. Few members of parliament or peers support Brexit.

      The third step will be the proposal of preconditions before further action. Many will remember Gordon Brown’s “five tests” for UK to join the euro (which were never tests in any real sense, but that detail was not important). Already contenders for the Tory leadership, such as Theresa May, the home secretary, are talking of situations being right and that things will be done when they are good and ready. This vagueness will no doubt shortly convert into more formal terms. After all, this would only be what any responsible government would do before taking ever such an important action.

      None of this is to say Brexit is impossible – any pundit who claims an event will not happen will usually be wrong – but it certainly becomes less likely as time passes. And unless Leave create another moment of opportunity – another wrong-footing of the established order – so as to force through the required Article 50 notification, then it may not happen at all.

      David Allen Green writes the law and policy blog at FT.com

    126. Thepnr says:

      Everyone of us has it in our own power to do something about BBC bias in Scotland. Stop paying them, they will eventually notice.

      The power to weaken them is in YOUR hands weaken them, don’t pay the telly tax. Turn the telly off, think that scares our masters more than anything else.

      They have no power unless they have your agreement. Don’t agree.

    127. Rock says:

      As I have posted many times, The BBC is Scotland’s enemy number 1.

      We will never get independence as long as it exists in Scotland.

      It is time to fight to destroy it once and for all.

    128. mr thms says:

      Scores are in..
      Glenn Campbell as moderator.. 0/10
      The panel for giving nothing away.. 0/10
      The audience for contributing nothing.. 0/10
      Token SNP Bad panellist.. 10/10

    129. Clootie says:

      Sorry but Hyslop was a disaster. She sould never be the front person for such debates.
      Why, why, why did she let the education “cuts” go without challenge.

      We need to field our top debaters in future.

    130. ScottieDog says:

      So if I have this right the RUK govt will make life even more difficult for its exporters who want to sell produce to Scotland at the same time as it tries to preserve trade with the EU..
      They are a moving in ever decreasing circles. Ridiculous.

    131. ScottieDog says:

      So here’s how the cross border trade would work…
      No biggie.
      http://www.3spoken.co.uk/2014/08/scottish-independence-myths-how-to-buy.html

    132. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      heedtracker @ 20:06,

      Yes, the EU “insurance policy” was an important aspect of WGD’s most recent blog post, and one that I hadn’t heretofore appreciated.

      “One for all and all for one”.

      rUK can’t victimise wee Scotland if we have the power of the (European) Union behind us.

      You would think that Labour people of all people would recognise that one!

    133. heedtracker says:

      It is time to fight to destroy it once and for all.

      Great stuff sensibleRock.

      Our spies were bored to death by several thousand episodes of Cash in The attic and Neil Oliver poncing and posturing for the UK, to bring us top secret Pacific Quay info about An exhaust port. … It’s a small thermal exhaust port, right below the main port. … A thermal exhaust port leading to its reactor core.

      Can I be Han Solo. I want to be Han Solo. Use the Force sensibleRock.

    134. Tam Jardine says:

      Pointless angry complaint lodged with the BBC.

      Seems I am not alone- check out the BBC Scotland twitter feed from 6.45pm tonight announcing the panel:

      https://twitter.com/BBCScotlandNews/status/749962361860227072

    135. tartanfever says:

      As Rock says in his above comment – we cannot win independence if we do not confront the BBC.

      The SNP should have refused to put forward anyone for tonights show as a protest at the panel make up. They would not have lost one single supporter in doing so.

      If anyone, and I mean anyone, has any contact with the SNP PR and media relations lot, please tell them that this is not working.

      We lost in 2014 because of this, and Salmond had to admit afterwards he was shocked by the behaviour of the BBC. Do we really have to go through this again ?

    136. Marcia says:

      It will be interesting to see what the viewing figures for these programmes are.

    137. The usual put up job by PQ.
      Tom Harris, an abject failure of a politician slouched in his chair smirking, One of the ‘Fucking Useless’ failed Forty in May 2015, there he is bold as brass , large as life, getting a nice wee chunk of appearance money from BBC Union.
      Glen Campbell pretending to scan the room randomly before offering the floor to the next Unionist plank, is risible.
      Just what we expected. A farce and an insult to viewers.

    138. Robert Graham says:

      Fiona hislop missed an open goal when Tomkins kept pushing the Britain voted as a whole she should have said and continued to say if that’s the case what’s the point of us voting at all , when sheer weight of numbers means we will never win we could have all sat on our arses instead of of participating in the Tory bun fight, Democracy don’t yah just love it .

    139. Robert Kerr says:

      I’ve started using verbally ….

      “Is that true or were you told by the BBC?”

      “Is that true or is it from the BBC?”

      Lots of stickers, everywhere. No doubt someone will eventually get caught.

      Crowdfund!

      Get a good lawyer on side. Human rights infringed by being lied to !

    140. X_Sticks says:

      Lochside says:

      “Could it be the time for the YES movement to re-activate and mobilise a Won’t Pay campaign in regard to the BBC Licence/tax in Scotland. By attacking the BBC financially and exposing its reputation for probity and balance as the total sham it is in the most public way, would it not destroy its control over Scotland’s people with its lies?”

      scotspine says:

      “I’m with Lochside on this.”

      Me too. I don’t pay the propaganda tax now and neither should anyone else who believes in Scottish independence. Only mass action will force them to change their ways.

      I agree with Thepnr “Everyone of us has it in our own power to do something about BBC bias in Scotland. Stop paying them, they will eventually notice”

    141. Grouse Beater says:

      Tartanfever: “we cannot win independence if we do not confront the BBC.”

      Protest crowds outside BBC HQ, internet criticism and letters, columns in newspapers, ex-BBC employees penning accusatory articles backed by evidence, academics proffering in-depth analytical reports on programme bias, MSPs questioning BBC staff in Parliament meetings- all that sounds like confronting the BBC to me.

    142. call me dave says:

      @ScottieDog

      @Tam Jardine

      Thanks for those links.

      On my 4th year of non-payment BBC licence.
      I’ll cough up readily for an independent Scotland tv/radio network.

      Boris:

      http://archive.is/Ihko8

    143. Grouse Beater says:

      Ruby at 8.23pm: A study for the Economic and Social Research Council (ESRC) compares the trading integration of Scotland and the rest of the UK with that of Ireland and the UK

      Good research, Ruby. Much appreciated.

    144. Jimmy says:

      Sorry if someone had said this already, but the BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION are doing only what is on the tin…..5.2 million people in Scotland 57 million in the RUK, so we should only get 10% of the airtime/representation, in their eyes. Farage and his people had 4 million votes, in the last election, 80% of our population. We know that we are two countries, but the BBC thinks only of the state, that pays their wages……Realistically, if Scotland was splitting from only London (Pop. 6.2 million) we would probably lose. They control the media and there are enough “tame” scots to help them along for being acknowledged as “equal”….Sad isn’t it!! But hey, if you have no pride in your country, loyalty to your country and neighbours, empathy for your fellows…and for some of my own friends, only interested that your portfolio loses 2%, then shame on you.

      P.S. We sell, give, transport 70% of our goods to the RUK…a lot is repackage and sent home via the supermarkets with, of course, value added (packaging). A lot is sold on to the EU……possibly a lot. Loving it here in Europe seeing Scottish Salmon, beef, deer and other products with the packaging from England….there is your 70%. Most is sold on…..don’t buy into we only sell to the UK. We sell to the world, VIA the UK. Prestwick could do good.
      Sorry, long winded and I’ve had a few. All the best, keep the faith and remember that most, if not all, like or at least respect the Scots!!

    145. Kenny says:

      Fiona Hyslop was poor on TV during the indyref1 campaign.

      Far better to have Jeannie Freeman or Joanna Cherry (both as sharp as a knife), although I presume the BBC is scared of those two.

      There is nothing wrong with Hyslop herself, just she is not cut out for countering the BBC bias. Tasmina usually does well, I must say.

    146. Cal says:

      I’m making sure that my children understand what is happening with “our” media. Thanks BBC for providing me with the material to give them a masterclass in propaganda. They are very well informed and will spread the word to their friends and in time, I hope, to their own children. You will never beat us BBC. The more obvious your propoganda the less effective it becomes. You are a victim of the law of diminishing returns. Your influence weakens with every passing day.

    147. Grouse Beater says:

      Heedtracker: Great stuff SensibleRock 😆

    148. HandandShrimp says:

      For those of you that watched it I salute your perseverance. I do not entertain the BBC political TV shows on any topic one second of my time.

    149. I thought Fiona did OK. She also refused to be silenced at the end which is a first for an SNP member of a panel. Nobody gets to address most of the points on these “debates”. I doubt if anybody got e anything out of tonight’s exercise

    150. Dal Riata says:

      A person by the name of Mhari Colquhoun left this fine retort BTL an article regarding BBC bias and dishonesty on Newsnet a few months ago:

      “I struggle to remember when the BBC have broadcast anything of any description that could be assessed as positive towards or about Scotland and her peoples,

      The Bostonians stood up for “no taxation without representation” – Scots in 2016 are getting “taxation with false representation”.

      Time to move on and dump the BBC!”

      That particular line regarding the BBC and it’s ‘efforts’ in Scotland is well worth repeating:

      “Scots in 2016 are getting “taxation with false representation.””

    151. Lochside says:

      Grouse Beater:
      ‘Protest crowds outside BBC HQ, internet criticism and letters, columns in newspapers, ex-BBC employees penning accusatory articles backed by evidence, academics proffering in-depth analytical reports on programme bias, MSPs questioning BBC staff in Parliament meetings- all that sounds like confronting the BBC to me.’

      Well GB..That sounds like farting at thunder to me old chum. I took part in most of the above apart from the obvious as I’m neither an academic or politician…and it has yielded sweet fannie adams.

      I think that mass action that has direct financial implications attached to it does work…boycotting in other words and witholding funds. Better than wasting thousands of trees in paper, complaining to a rubber ear. Yeah the Brit State may keep things rolling for a while, but at what cost?

      Let’s get the YES movement back in action and start the ball rolling against pernicious old ‘Auntie’…agreed?

    152. Apollo says:

      heedtracker 4 July, 2016 at 6:50 pm

      British troops to be deployed in eastern Europe, says minister
      ITV
      2 hours ago

      Michael Fallon believes the move will provide ‘reassurance’ against Russian aggression.”

      In 1962, The Soviets tried to deploy nuclear weapons in Cuba, Americans backyard. The Americans were close to going to war until the Soviets backed down.

      The Russians have had bad experiences in relations to the West with invasions both by the French and the Germans in previous centuries. I am in no way defending Putin but lets look at it this way, if we got Indy two years and NATO didn’t take us but the Russians offered us protection in the shape on a military presence on our soil, what do you think would be the response in London and Washington?

    153. Cal says:

      Don’t pay the propaganda tax. Our family is happier and my children better informed since we gave up TV. The internet has a zillion times more information than can be found on any TV channel. Watching TV makes you ill.

      There are 7.33 billion people in this world but only 0.065 billion in the UK. Almost NOBODY is Brittish.

      The internet gives you access to the knowledge of the whole world. Why listen to what 0.9% of people are saying when you could be learning from the other 99.1%?

    154. heedtracker says:

      Apollo says:
      4 July, 2016 at 10:10 pm
      heedtracker 4 July, 2016 at 6:50 pm

      More chance of alien invasion Apollo. All 27 countries of the EU seem to be able rub along with Russia somehow some way.

    155. McDuff says:

      Fiona Hyslop was awful and I agree that the SNP should refuse to attend these debates which are carefully designed to undermine independence.

    156. Tam Jardine says:

      Lochside

      I keep looking at their careers site to see if there is anything doing. As of right now they have 103 jobs advertised and a mere 3 of them are in Scotland (PQ). I am totally unqualified for anything in programming and can’t really work in Glasgow but we need folk embedded. Not sure how to get the message out there- its counter productive to do big posts on the subject.

      If I had the skills to hack I would hack. I want to see the bbc bias playbook, the memos, the internal emails etc etc. Thats the proton torpedo to the small thermal exhaust port heedtracker mentioned above.

    157. Robert Louis says:

      Apollo,

      Get a grip.

    158. Phronesis says:

      From someone who knows a bit about journalism…

      ‘History shows that, broadly speaking, those who fear and loathe the mass of people and their passions have always favoured more controls over what we are allowed to write and to read. On the other side, those who genuinely support an unfettered press have always based that stand on a belief in people’s capacity to reason and decide for themselves what is true.

      The lack of support for press freedom among the liberal elite today is a glaring illustration of the low opinion in which the authorities and experts now hold the mass of humanity, who must be protected from harmful words and images for their own good’

      http://www.spiked-online.com/review_of_books/article/12922#.V3rO9eT6vIU

      The majority print media & our national narrowcasting corporation clearly fear the mass of opinion in Scotland that has decided to stay in the EU and voted as a country to do so.

      Those who support a political system and internal economic model that has given us the ‘Glasgow Effect’ can read a report that might go some way to explain the origins of Scotland’s vote.

      ‘The impact of the newly elected (in 1979) Conservative UK government’s policies on population health – in terms of widening inequalities in income (and other, related, socioeconomic characteristics) and, therefore, ultimately health status across the UK – was discussed in Part Four of this report.

      Specific policies which particularly affected cities like Glasgow, Liverpool, and Manchester in this period included accelerated deindustrialisation resulting in increased unemployment, sharp reductions in financial support for council housing, and broader policies which impacted adversely on local government finance, trade union organisation, and on individuals in receipt of social security payments’

      http://www.gcph.co.uk/publications/635_history_politics_and_vulnerability_explaining_excess_mortality

      Whose politics/ whose economics should rule Scotland?

    159. Robert Louis says:

      McDuff at 1025,

      Totally agree, I have no idea why Fiona Hyslop is the person the SNP sends to these things. Also, the SNP should not attend such blatantly biased set-ups by the BBC.

      Let’s put it this way, if the BBC were to do such a thing in London, then the political parties down there would scream long and hard about it.

    160. Grouse Beater says:

      Lochside: “…and it has yielded sweet fannie adams.”

      You’re wrong.

      You’re wrong on two counts.

      You can’t devalue what has gone before because you’re impatient for some sort of lynching. That extended attack on the values of BBC has been instrumental in bringing the public’s notice to the real BBC.

      And you can’t claim it’s all been a failure when the BBC is undergoing tremendous attenuation as a result of concerted attacks from all quarters of society, not only people in Scotland demanding more output, but a fairer output to the mass of metropolitan-centric programming.

      It’s already produced an internal report proposing big changes in BBC Scotland, including the appointment of a drama producer. (Who knew no such staff category existed?)

      I make no claim that those proposals will get implemented, least not before independence is regained – but they are the outcome of all our protests, and moreover, our own Parliament’s enquiries into BBC Scotland’s inadequacies. It isn’t as if we are shouting in the dark. We have parliamentarians picking up the baton.

      I am not suggesting all is well now.

      Far from it; I am reacting against firebrands who scream blue murder, and like bigots and racists called Boris and Farage, withdraw to the nearest pub to quaff a pint while watching the spectacle they whipped up.

      I’ve written enough on BBC’s weaknesses to go over it all again. In essence I maintain Scotland needs its own broadcaster, not a modified BBC, to which any past BBC staffer can join so long as he or she accepts the cultural ethos that it will foster on behalf of the nation it serves.

    161. Part time MSP Tomkins new the question on education was going to be asked,

      he was given plenty time by BBC to spout out his prearranged anti SNP diatribe,

      thought Hyslop was OK,could maybe get to the point a bit quicker and with fewer words.

    162. Valerie says:

      @Apollo
      Fallon is one of the best bare faced arrogant liars, the Tories have. A man who is excited only by declaring war to be visited on some outpost by the remnants of the British Empire.

      He would not be out of place in Zulu.

      The UK is completely fcked, the armed forces in terms of numbers, equipment etc. are a joke, esp to a military force like Russia.

      Does that asshole really think we are all so brain dead, that we believe this bullshit?

      A small troop will be sent as ordered by the U.S., because we are nothing more than name only in support terms, and following the yanks around as the burn up the Middle East, or try and look scary on the Russian border.

      American diplomats were complaining last week, that Russians had broken into their living quarters and shat on their carpets.

      The Russians treat them as a joke, not worth any ammo or effort.

      With Brexit, we are more in thrall to USA, and that’s a bad thing, hugely bad.

    163. Valerie says:

      BTW, on Russia, it was Cameron, as the poodle, who led on EU sanctions against Russia.

      Russia has never done anything to us, and its why Obama came over to lecture the UK about being at the back of the queue, he likes having a direct line, and mouthpiece into the EU

      Hence Cameron looks like a burst balloon in hiding, and Fallon is falling over himself to send a few soldiers on a jaunt.

      Not so special now. Think about the Establishment and Trident now, and what will motivate them for indyref2.

      However, I’m more than sure the SNP knows this is make or break. We don’t win this time, forget it.

    164. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      I’m sorry Val, but Russia is not our friend or our friends’ friend, and it’s deluded to think otherwise. It’s a rather greedy neo-imperialist power (a Mafia state, as George Kerevan called it in today’s National), and our fellow EU citizens on its western border are truly (and rightly) scared about its ambitions.

    165. Macandroid says:

      Re BBC

      As well as not paying licence fee, would a campaign of writing to advertisers in the Radio Times advising that we will not be buying their products if they continue to advertise there be of any value?

    166. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      The main problem with not paying the licence fee is that it’s an invisible individual protest, and the BBC jealously guards its privileged status re FOI requests. (Deeply ironic that an organisation responsible for public broadcasting is so resolutely opaque about itself!)

      A payment strike can only hope to be effective if it can achieve a “critical mass” of refuseniks who also publicise their stance, a “won’t pay” protest movement with enough public support to be able to escalate.

      I just wonder if there was some additional mileage in suing the BBC for fraud or suchlike, since they extort our licence money yet clearly fail to provide us with a service that adequately represents Scottish public opinion. The publicity alone would be priceless.

      As someone already mentioned upthread, it’s the old story of “no taxation without (fair) representation.” The English Establishment have learnt nothing from the last 250 years of colonial history, it seems.

    167. papko says:

      There are 7.33 billion people in this world but only 0.005 billion in Scotland . Almost NOBODY is Scottish.

      quite.

    168. crazycat says:

      @ David Stevens at 8.17

      Jackie Baillie, she who was rejected at the ballot box but sneaks in through the backdoor of the list.

      Unfortunately, she was not rejected – she has a majority of 109.

    169. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Macandroid.

      Reads like a decent ploy.

      ———————————————-

      Hi papko.

      Time you gave up. You’ve been rumbled.

    170. Papko says:

      Lochside says:
      4 July, 2016 at 10:02 pm
      Grouse Beater:
      ‘Protest crowds outside BBC HQ, internet criticism and letters, columns in newspapers, ex-BBC employees penning accusatory articles backed by evidence, academics proffering in-depth analytical reports on programme bias, MSPs questioning BBC staff in Parliament meetings- all that sounds like confronting the BBC to me.’

      Why bother with that, ineffectual strategy, lets do something everyone in Scotland can get behind.

      Just sit and watch television, for hours on end, during the day, at night, just sit transfixed.

      When we stop ranting about conspiracy theories and “Westminster”, and just placidly watch the content, they will start to get worried.

      BritNat Yoons at the BBC, will really panic then.

    171. Ken500 says:

      They have bombed the Middle East to bits so now they are moving on to Russia. Causing trouble on the Russian border. Will there ever be peace? Turkey has already apologised for shooting down a Russian pilot and promised to bring the culprit to justice, according to RT. Putin had a 80% popularity rate in Russia, but it has fallen. The US and EU have put sanctions on Russia because of Ukraine but Germany would not give them a loan. It has ended up the US gave them a loan and they are using it to buy Russian Gas. Cameron asked Putin to speak up against Independence for Scotland. Putin refused and revealed the proposition.

      Russia helped the West in the 11WW. 26Million Russians died 1 in 6. They did not want to be involved in a War. It soon after the 1WW and the 1917 Revolution. People in Russia were starving because of the Czar’s ‘devine right to rule’ and repression.

      The 11WW destroyed and devastated their country and led to an unaffordable Arms Race for Russia and America. They had to sign mutual arms reduction treaties in the 1970/80’s. The fall of the Berlin wall. Poland released from dominance. The Allies went to war because Poland was invaded. Poland was given over to Russian dominance at Yalta Settlement, after 11WW.by Churchhill and Roosevelt. Until it became Independent.

      Russia supplies Germany and Europe with Gas. There is a pipeline through the Baltic Sea. BP the worse company in economic history to cheat Russia, on a join venture in the Arctic. It didn’t go down well. Bo Dudley had to flee Russia before Putin put him in jail for fraud.

      They spend approx £40Billion on Defences a year. A set % of gross national product. So have to off load their redundant weapons, or sell them somewhere around the world. Westminster/Unionists want to be perpetually at War. They are are spending £205 on Trident – 30 mins from Glasgow while they starve vulnerable people. Cautioned by the a UN Report. Westminster sanction and starve the people they are supposed to protect and cut essential services. The Defence minister spent £2Billion modifying Army helicopter. Westminster Unionists have taken the equivalent on £Billions in Oil Revenues.

      In the NS the helicopters are over 30 years old and falling from the sky. Killing innocent people. Goodwill the UK transport Minister refused an Inquiry, although one was recommended by the Westminister Transport Committee. UK Health & Safety rules were being broken, The Helicopter company owners sold up two years later for £250Million, without sanction. The families received some compensation. Then another crash happened again, with the same fault. Killing more people. Innocent people going to work and they don’t survive.

      The Chilcot Report will be released tomorrow after 7 years. If there are retributions will that stop the Westminster/Unionist warmongers.

      Don’t watch the BBC News programmes they are biased. No audience. No programmes.

    172. Macandroid says:

      @ Pablo 12:55am

      Plus a couple of billion Scots around the globe?

    173. Valerie says:

      @Robert J Sutherland

      I didn’t say Russia is our friend, but can you point to where they have harmed the UK.

      Just as with everything else, don’t swallow every bit of crap spoken about Russia, which is rammed by USA, determined on their imperialist adventures.

      As for their gov’t? Oh that’s really scary, not like our UK at all, where May is a ‘moderate’.

      We are lurching so far to the Right, Russia looks attractive.

      If Putin had designs on us, why didn’t he intervene in indyref1?

      Oh and just for cheer, May wants Trident discussed early.

      Pandering to unfounded paranoia, at a time when ordinary people are fearful of jobs, money etc.

      I don’t see how anyone has the nerve to criticise Russia, Kerevan included.

    174. Dan Huil says:

      Holyrood should pass a law saying no-one in Scotland will be fined or imprisoned if they refuse to pay the bbc tax.

    175. G H Graham says:

      Fiona Hyslop is a rubbish choice for television. She’s too dim witted & misses opportunities that a 10 year old would pick up on.

      So the SNP should just make the honourable decision and stop anyone from the party appearing on any of the British State’s propaganda channels produced by the BBC.

      Finally, stop funding the propaganda otherwise stop moaning about it. Protests, letter writing and bitching on line are a complete waste of time.

      The most powerful action you can take is to withdraw your support for pro Brit Nat propaganda by cancelling the optional TV tax also knows as the License Fee.

    176. Greannach says:

      In the finest traditions of the BBC in Scotland, it seems appropriate that the 3rd largest party in Parliament should be represented by two spokespersons. Which funnily enough is double their representation in Westminster.

    177. Cuilean says:

      My solution was simply not to tune in to these BBC troll fests any longer.

    178. Apollo says:

      I didn’t check any replies to my posts last night and this is the first opportunity that I am able to post today so apologies for late reply.

      The point I was trying to make is that while Putin is firmly in charge, it doesn’t mean that he is immune to forces in that country, particularly those of the ultra-nationalist variety who will be incensed at having NATO forces in their backyard for various reasons including what I had mentioned.

      I get that it is a joke force and mainstream Russia treats them as the joke it is but what is the point of doing something stupid like which could force Russian public opinion to a more hard line position that is not beneficial for the West?

      As mentioned, Russia is only interested in Russian interests and is in no way different from the UK or America in it’s neo-colionalist designs but the fact names that Russia is as part of the global economy as everyone are it is not in their interests to purposely destabilise the countries that they want to trade with. However, the can play hard ball with the West when there is no need to.

      It is just complete madness and pointless when it has no military value whatsoever.

    179. Grouse Beater says:

      Papko: “Why bother with that ineffectual strategy, lets do something everyone in Scotland can get behind.

      Good idea. You can’t stab anybody in the back unless you first get behind them. (M. Gove MP)

      (Actually, Sir Humphrey Appleby.)

    180. Grouse Beater says:

      Appollo: “It’s madness and pointless when it has no military value whatsoever.”

      The armament industry relies on vast tax aid from us via our governments, hence another scare story helps extricate the subsidies they rely upon.

    181. Is Jackie Baillie there ,as free advertisement for Greggs the Bakers ?,

    182. You take the number of Brexiters, divide by the number who have all their own teeth, multiply by their percentage share of the vote and divide by the level of BBC bias.



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