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Wings Over Scotland

Watching the world catch up

Posted on June 18, 2019 by

The UK’s political commentariat is afire with shock today over a new poll.

The poll showed that Tory members would by margins of around 2:1 willingly sacrifice Scotland and Northern Ireland – along with the UK economy and their own party – to make sure Brexit happened. Which is all very interesting, unless you read Wings in which case you knew it a year ago.

Because that – almost to the day, 20 June 2018 – is when we published a poll showing that, um, Tory voters would by margins of around 2:1 willingly sacrifice Scotland and Northern Ireland to make sure Brexit happened.

Our poll was England-only rather than whole-UK, and asked Tory voters rather than party members, but the results were almost identical – if you strip Don’t Knows out of both polls, ours comes out to 67-33 for Scotland and 65-35 for NI, compared to today’s 68-32 for each.

So there’s no actual news here for Wings readers, who’ve been a full year ahead of the curve. And it means what we’ve told you for many months will be the case – the UK is heading for a no-deal Brexit.

The only remotely viable way to stop no-deal at this stage is a general election, and what these polls illustrate is that that if there’s a general election, either Boris Johnson (if he’s Tory leader) or Nigel Farage (if he isn’t) will win it.

All today’s poll does is reinforce that analysis by spelling it out in short words: Tory members and voters alike will no longer tolerate a leader unwilling to pursue no-deal, even if it destroys their own party.

And we know where that leads:

The specifics of exactly how it plays out remain to be seen. We don’t know if an all-out Parliamentary war will erupt between the Prime Minister and the Speaker, or whether Rory Stewart will gather a guerrilla Parliament in an old church hall and attempt the world’s most middle-class coup.

But voters have made their position clear. If the Tories make Boris Johnson leader – and they surely will – he’ll have the majority to do what he wants. If they don’t, or if Johnson stalls and delays on leaving on 31 October, voters will either inflict the Brexit Party or an impossible unworkable shambles of a Parliament on the UK.

In the latter case, uncharitable readers may wonder if we’ll notice the difference. But either way, the only forseeable ultimate outcome is the cliff-edge.

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    258 to “Watching the world catch up”

    1. John Thomson says:

      After 2014 we deserve this shambles God help us all because we can’t seem to help ourselves

    2. Ruglonian says:

      More non-news for us!

      When will other folk catch up with our view that this constitutional arrangement is unsustainable then? (esp looking at you ScotGov!)

    3. CmonIndy says:

      Let it play.

    4. McDuff says:

      People have lost their minds.

    5. Capella says:

      It won’t ACTUALLY be Boris Johnston running the UK though, surely not. What exactly do the industrialists and financiers want?

      Free market bonanza – not quite there yet – still the NHS to auction off plus schools, prisons, police, armed forces, HMRC, social services, care for the elderly, pensions…
      Offshore tax havens – safe as houses after BREXIT.

      If Boris wins he probably will go for a GE to secure his majority and spin the next parliament out for another “fixed term”. Fixed is the word.

    6. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Yes, Unionism in England is dying. The voters there have been fed so many lies about “sponging Scotland” that it would likely be a political bonus to offer us an easy exit. Maybe if things get really out of hand, the politicians will lose control and won’t have much choice, as Brexit is already fast becoming down there.

      Except of course those in the know may possibly realise the economic advantages of hanging on to Scotland, and taking a risk that by otherwise ignoring us with an “England first” policy they can rely on enough supine PSBs to be able to continue to exploit us, and even more ruthlessly at that.

      But I wouldn’t count on such arrogance succeeding. We are nearly free already, and it only takes a few more people to wake up to the realities. Then the harder they try to keep us enchained, the more opinion will escalate, and we will be unstoppable.

    7. gus1940 says:

      Perusal of the metropolitan broadcast and print media gives the impression that the UK has accepted that the only way forward is Brexit despite the fact that the EU referendum was only won by the Leavers by a near wafer thin majority.

      Surely, if it transpires that Brexit happens with or without No Deal and the swivel-eyed loonies of Boris, Farage and the ERG are in control we are heading for large scale unrest in England which may be of the violent variety.

      Meanwhile, in Scotland Indy will be inevitable and early.

    8. Robert Peffers says:

      Perhaps we might try to get those Proud Scots Buts to vote for independence by convincing them the only way to get rid of the Scots subsidy junkies is to vote for independence to set England free.

    9. Proud Cybernat says:

      If those figures are even close to reality then it looks to me that FM Nicola Sturgeon and ScotGov are playing a blinder!

    10. manandboy says:

      Well done, Stu, another hat-trick. Brilliant!

    11. Dr Jim says:

      The all new Ruth Davidson TorLabLib Orange party will soon swing into action to save Scotland for the Union while the Labour party dribble away in England leaving the Tories in overall control of everything once again and Ruthie gets to be First Minister in Viceroy Mundells government

      Brrrr! what a horrible dream that was

    12. Merkin Scot says:

      Unworkable shambles followed by Government of National Unity with an invitation to Nigel to participate.
      ‘Temporary’ Martial Law and suppression of Holyrood to follow.

    13. Bugger le Panda says:

      How far down this bloody rabbit hole have we left to go?

    14. David says:

      Presumably the ‘Nat’ figure in the last image shows total number of Plaid and SNP MPs.

      So in *any* circumstance, at the next Westminster election we will get approx 55 SNP MPs!

      I love it when a plan comes together. 🙂

    15. Doug Bryce says:

      The “Scottish subsidy” junky myth has back-fired.

      They honestly believe England would be better off with out North Sea oil.

    16. bobajock says:

      Im living the chinese curse now.

      But if we vote No again, then I will go full Tory and help destroy everything in Scotland to facilitate the pain for the real idiots who would vote No now.

    17. geeo says:

      I wonder how much this polling will be reported now it is not Wings saying it ?

      Not the best time to enter a breath holding competition i suspect.

      I posted a couple of weeks ago, that if Boris the buffoon won the Tory leadership, he could call an election, and tell people he needed a parliamentary majority to FORCE no deal brexit through, as without said majority, everyone else would conspire to stop him delivering no deal.

      I also said that such a move would chop the legs from under the Brexit Party and render them obsolete in any GE under a newly coronated PM Johnson.

      The tories would appear from that GE re-energised and intact (after culling remainers in a mass deselection purge) Farage an co are neutered, and labour are decimated, left wondering how it all went wrong, falling into chaos, and hey presto, tories are in complete control for another decade at least.

      With a huge majority under his belt, Boris the buffoon can simply ignore the plebs, and do pretty much anything he likes to the uk.

      When people realise the extent of no deal brexit on their lives, and get a severe dose of buyers regret, the tories can simply point to their huge majority and say “you voted for it, we are giving you it”.

      The one potential blot on his horizon, is that, with a surge in English Nationism under Johnson’s leadership, and Scots stepping up the indy campaign via the referendum bill legislation and threatening to dissolve the Union, it may become difficult for Boris Johnson as PM as the populist figurehead of said resurgent of English (ethnic) Nationalism, to justify the continued union with Scotland.

      That will be a tough issue for him, particularly when those English voters start questioning why their new “all about England” tory leader is happy to keep ‘subsidising’ those ‘jocks’ that he (Johnson) apparently want to ‘exterminate’.

      These poll results clearly create the potential for a demand that a Boris Johnson led tory party, ends the Union with Scotland so that their ‘precious england’ no longer ‘subsidises’ us ungrateful Scots.

      And that is an issue for WM as they are not stupid enough to believe the rhetoric they punt to the plebs, they know how critical Scotland’s revenue streams are to the WM treasury wellbeing.

      Probably go to war with Iran to avoid scrutiny of such matters anyway.

      Such is the WM mentality.

    18. Luigi says:

      Oh Dear. Dearie Dearie Me! The UK England is having a Trumpian Fit. And the BritNat politicians and media are entirely to blame. No question.

      The good folk of England have had enough – they are digging their heels in and are now determined to lob the Brexit hand grenade directly at the establishment (right into the HoC lol). Next to Trump’s election, this is the biggest FU in history. The people have spoken and you better listen.

      This cannot end well – for them. Dearie Dearie Me. Who’d da thought it would come to this.

      Wot a nightmare What a tme to be alive.

      The ship is going down folks. Time to run for the lifeboat. You know, that shiny white boat with “Indy” marked on the side. 🙂

    19. John Walsh says:

      You’re always prescient on such things. Why McYoons dislike you so much.
      When BoJo is PM I think he might pull No Deal trigger quicker . To pacify the ERG/ Farage pact
      GE in September.

    20. Terry callachan says:

      The thing is
      When these English people say they will happily ditch Scotland in order to see brexit happen
      they do not mean they will relinquish
      oil gas minerals fish in Scotland’s waters
      electricity from Scotland’s lochs wind power and wave power
      food from Scotland’s huge farming industry

      England will happily ditch Scotland to have brexit but will try damn hard to have both
      they might even call any Scottish referendum on Scottish independence illegal
      just because Westminster didn’t agree to it
      or they might set Scottish independence referendum rules that are undemocratic and unfair

      Even if the Scottish government went ahead with a Scottish independence declaration following a majority in favour of independence in a Scottish independence referendum
      England will continue to retain control of Scotland’s oil and gas
      do not expect them to voluntarily relinquish control or receipt of payment from oil and gas exploration companies

      This is why Nicola Sturgeon wishes to have an agreeable amicable separation

      The Westminster parliament has a long history of mistreatment and harsh unfair practices towards other countries

      Things are heating up
      It’s exciting for those wishing Scottish independence
      It’s also nervy

    21. galamcennalath says:

      WoS poll was Tory voters, while YouGov’s was members. No difference in opinions.

      70-80% of Tory members appear to actually want ‘no deal’. Does that too extrapolate onto all Tory voters?

      The threat here is that WM’s atrocious FPTP system might give a majority of MPs with a mandate for ‘no deal’ while a majority of UK wide voters reject it!

      The SNP high command’s plans need to be primed and ready to respond – SOS – Save Our Scotland!

    22. cirsium says:

      I’ve just received leaflet by mail shot from the Europe of Freedom and Direct Democracy Group. The first page has a picture of a steam train and carriages going through the Scottish Highlands – vibes from Victorian, imperial Britain. Unsurprisingly, although the leaflet is about saying NO to the EU, it does have the slogan “YES to a United Kingdom”.

      The centrefold has a Saltire background, a Saltire-painted hand giving a Churchillian Victory sign-vibes from WWII, imperial Britain- and the slogan “BE A BREXIT BELEAVER” with the LEAVE in red so red, white and blue appear on the same page.

      On the back page, it has a picture of Nigel Farage, the EFDD Group President. There is no explanation about what the EFDD is.

      Various words come to mind like pathetic, dishonest, manipulative.

    23. winifred mccartney says:

      I don’t know why we should be surprised at these figures since tories by their very nature look after number one and to heck with everybody else and Boris is surely the epitome of that.

    24. call me dave says:

      Words fail me…err. Bring it on!

      Terry = Tryer. 🙂 Aye!

    25. Jack Murphy says:

      As this poll directly impacts on Scotland I expect to see it on BBC Reporting Scotland 6:30pm tonight.

      Hold breath.

      Go on STV News—-grab and run with it. [smiley emoji]

    26. Sarah says:

      @galamcennalath: SOS Save Our Scotland – excellent idea for our campaign.

      Are you going to pass it on to the SNP HQ?

      I’ve been mulling over various slogans. I still don’t see why we can’t use “Take back Control” – it seemed to work for others and it is what we want Scotland to do, after all!

    27. Stuart MacKay says:

      @Terry callachan I don’t think they connect the two. The focus is on Brexit and whatever it takes to get it. What comes after that is not important right now.

      However after independence I don’t see why anything substantial needs to change. There can still be Scottish fish on English dining tables. The only difference will be it will have been caught by Scottish boats. Same with everything else. There’s an existing market with existing supply chains and existing contracts. Of course if Scotland is in the EU and some form of agreement is not in place, post Brexit, then that makes things a little more difficult. Nothing material needs to change unless there’s some kind of lasting resentment at the break-up or there’s a new “Buy English Only” policy in order for the country to force itself to become more self-sufficient.

    28. Footsoldier says:

      Jack Murphy 3.42pm

      STV & News? Some form of oxymoron surely.

    29. naina tal says:

      Sarah at 3.45
      Right now, I’d like to see us steal another Unionist slogan from my youth. “Back Scotland: Buy Scottish”. I remember the wee stickers with UJs on Backing Britten on produce and lamposts and everywhere else.

      Sick to the back teeth of Union Jacks on everything in the shops. I’ve now got a very unhealthy diet due to boycotting all the Jack bedecked Scottish produce in the shops.

    30. geeo says:

      Poor old callachan…still pumping out pish and dribbles on a subject he either does not understand, or does, but cannot accept is coming soon.

      Chin up terence old boy, Scotland will sell you some lovely oil, electricity, water, fish, food, drink, etc etc .

      Gotta warn you though, might not be cheap. Who knows, we might put a 5% surcharge on everything we sell you, which your political leaders at WM have previously stole for free.

      Pay it or buy candles.

      Or dont be dicks, and we will MAYBE play nice.

      Callachan clearly has trouble understanding how quickly things will change post Yes.

      43 schools and STILL thick as the pound of mince I am away to cook up 🙂

    31. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      geeo @ 15:25,

      You are evidently of the same mind as s~cat in thinking that BoJo as new PM will call a pre-Brexit UKGE with an no-deal Leave bottom-line, taking the gamble that this assurance alone will prevail over the Faragists. Certainly most Tory MPs cling on to the hope that this wll save their miserable skins. It’s certainly a plausible scenario.

      I still stick to the belief that he will first deliver Brexit, using no-deal to arm-twist the HoC rather than the EU, or even just bypass the HoC and go with the default no-deal instead. From the above polls, that is not so risky. Having “delivered Brexit”, he will have neutralised Farage by stealing his thunder, then bring on a UKGE to crown his coup before the full effects of his “success” become apparent. The risk there is in the effects becoming rather too quickly apparent!

      In either case, a win for Boris is likely to result in a financial squeeze on Scotland, using post-Brexit austerity as cover. He will hope that enough of us will not realise the likely consequences until it’s all done-and-dusted. But even if we did, and every MP we elected was SNP, what difference would that make in an HoC full of howling English nationalists?

      Although a substantial win for the SNP in an upcoming UKGE is very likely, the way these elections work with full media attntion on the Cartel, it is almost impossible to achieve 50%+1 of the votes to ensure an unimpeachable win for indy. So either we have to assert that a substantial number of MPs elected on a flat-out pro-indy manifesto is sufficient justification, or instead we have to have our own independence referendum first without the confusions of party politics getting in the way.

      Personally I think the latter is preferable. Get our retaliation in first, as the old footie saying goes.

    32. Famous15 says:

      That brexit leaflet I thought was a signal to Scotland by the two fingers “get it right up you Scotland”

      All in the eyes of the beholder,eh?

      When we vote for our independence we will be backed principally by the EU nations but also by most of the other democratic nations rushing to do business with us. Any attempt at boycott of our produce is a two edged sword as brexiteers have emphasised to the EU. So any deals EU has we will also have.We are already EU compliant. That is why we will not be like Turkey or any other scaremongering comparison country.

    33. Ronnie says:

      I genuinely think we’re heading for an actual civil war in the UK.

    34. CameronB Brodie says:

      “Take back Control”

      Perhaps a bit tainted? On the other hand, it might sell to the more reactionary nationalist. 😉

    35. Giving Goose says:

      There is a saying “The candle burns brightest just before it goes out.”
      The candle is the UK and British Nationalism.
      When it is finally extinguished there will be a huge sigh of relief.

    36. Dr Jim says:

      Isn’t it funny that they mind Northern Ireland being out of the UK more than Scotland

      That looks like they hate us more, the racist baskets Whoopee!

    37. Willie says:

      With Johnson as PM and Trump in the wings, oh how the little people will laugh as the NHS falls to the US corporate healthcare raiders.

      Better together and especial so to the old tons who denied us yes in 2014.

    38. Dr Jim says:

      @Ronnie 4:31pm

      We’ve got drones they’re scared of them

    39. Luigi says:

      The tories and their media chums have spent the last decade (at least) fibbing that the scots are subsidy junkies, unable to fend for themselves and a massive drain on British resources. Anyone in England who swallowed that isn’t exactly going to be either reluctant or afraid to ditch the union with Scotland now, are they? Nothing to loose and everything to gain (unless you are a supporter of Rory’s “one nation” guff, which most English tories apparently are not).

      How I love it when cunning plans backfire spectacularly. 🙂

    40. mumsyhugs says:


      Wee Ginger Dug fundraiser now underway – maybe give a few bawbees to help us escape from this madness!!!!!!

    41. Skintybroko says:

      Can just see a Chris Cairns cartoon with trump in the middle and a hand on top of a wee bojo and a wee nifa saying That’s my boys

    42. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi geeo at 4:11 pm.

      You typed,
      “Poor old callachan…still pumping out pish and dribbles on a subject he either does not understand, or does, but cannot accept is coming soon.

      Chin up terence old boy, Scotland will sell you some lovely oil, electricity, water, fish, food, drink, etc etc .

      Gotta warn you though, might not be cheap. Who knows, we might put a 5% surcharge on everything we sell you, which your political leaders at WM have previously stole for free.”

      You seem to be labouring under a misapprehension that Terry Callachan does not live in Scotland. He lives within a few miles of me – and my hovelhold is in Dundee. I sometimes see his wife on the #73 bus, going to or from work.

    43. twathater says:

      How long are nightmares supposed to last , and should you still be suffering those nightmares when you are awake ( asking for a friend )

    44. JMD says:

      Been saying for years – but no one paid any attention – that we should be doing whatever possible to promote the notion that England should no longer put up with the Scottish monkey with all its “subsidies” on their back and should just boot Scotland out of the glorious greatbritish “union”. That’ll teach those ungrateful whining jocks!

      Anyone stupid enough to have voted for brexit without fully understanding all of the implications would be stupid enough to believe that.

      If it picked up a real head of steam and English demands for Scotland to leave the uk became loud and clear what could the WM regime do? Start telling the truth about it?

      Ha ha ha ha

    45. John Alexander Ferguson says:

      Terry Callachan, Absolutely spot on.

    46. Sarah says:

      @CameronbB: I’ve had that said before [the slogan Take back Control being “tainted”] but it worked for others so why not for us? Apparently it is psychologically comforting to be in “control” so if it helps the unconfident Noes to change to Yes then I’m all for it!!

      Though galamcennalath’s “SOS Save our Scotland” is even better. Perhaps a wee poll?

    47. Shug says:

      Any money running on how long it will be before the bbc report that england wants to dump scotland
      Call kaye i am sure she will cover it

      Ha haha

    48. galamcennalath says:

      @naina tal

      If it’s got a Jack, put it back!

      That’s good advice for shopping. I like to buy locally and therefore Scottish, but I have no problems with buying English products as the next closest. They should proudly adorn them with St George’s. It’s the Butcher Apron I object to. It’s not a mark of origin to me, it’s a political statement and nothing else. It’s ramming their Union down my throat.

      I’d support a campaign promoting boycotting products toting pro-Union propaganda. Leaflets, stickers whatever. It would have to make clear that it’s not a boycott of non Scottish stuff … I think the most offensive thing of all is something from Scotland with a Union Flag.

      In some respects, you can excuse the English because a fair proportion probably still believe the UJ is an English flag!

      And I wouldn’t want one those new Mini’s with Butcher’s tail lights! What were they thinking of?!

    49. CameronB Brodie says:

      British nationalism is a form of cultural patriarchy. Patriarchy is a destructive social pathology. Patriarchy is bad, mk.

      These results suggest that England’s desire to emancipate the ‘British’ identity, is stronger than the structural patriarchy that has maintained Britain as an ambiguous democracy for so long (see Scotland’s democratic deficit).

      One for those who don’t consider science a cultural threat.

      The Patriarchal Mind as the Ignored Root of Interpersonal and Social Pathologies

    50. Welsh Sion says:

      galamcennalath, Sarah et al.

      If SOS is ‘Save Our Scotland’, it’s also ‘Sturgeon’s Our Saviour’.


    51. galamcennalath says:

      ” Here’s the Scottish Tory response to UK members sacrificing Union for Brexit “

    52. Ken500 says:

      There are not much Tory members (124,000) or Tory voters left. (16%?). Nothing to worry about. The Tories are toast especially in Scotland. The SNP has much more members (pro rata) and more more voters 50%. If they break Devolution or IndyRef, They break EU/UN rules. Taken to Court again.

      The Tories are toast GE. There will be no deal Brexit. They will be gone sooner. Another total mess and shambles. The members are dying out. Male and over seventy.

      Polls can be deceptive.

    53. schrodingers cat says:

      Ken500 says:

      The Tories are toast GE. There will be no deal Brexit.

      not if bojo wins and backs a no deal, the tories will win a ge

    54. galamcennalath says:

      SOS – Save Our Scotland – has undertones of panic and despair! While that might be justified (in fact that’s probably why I used it), I actually think more positive slogans are best.

      What is Indy for? What do we hope to achieve?

      The driver right now is getting out of the UK and away from the mad bad Tories. But here again, a more positive message about the future would be best.

      Something which says Indy will deliver good things, with an underlying message that the UK hasn’t, would be best.

    55. galamcennalath says:

      Rather perversely, the Express is reporting that Johnson will try to extend the transition period. He can’t have a transition period until he’s got the Withdrawal Agreement through WM. Good luck on that one.

      That’s just weird.

      The Express is definitely in a parallel universe where the laws of logic have been suspended, however so must it’s readership.

    56. Ken500 says:

      Can the Tories go for an election (re Boris). The ConDems (Libs) created fixed term (5 years) UK Parliament.

    57. Naina Tal says:

      galamcennalath at 5:16
      I agree with you about not having a boycott of English Goods. My comment was more about the promotion of Scottish goods, rather than any boycott.
      Having said that, I do boycott anything with a Jack, be it from Scotland or elsewhere in UKOK. The Union Jack is nothing to do with country of origin. It’s about the worst kind of British Nationalism.
      As for the mini rear lights, I don’t know what the hell that’s about. A nod to “The Italian Job” perhaps? “Engerland swings like a pendulum do”? From a German company too!

    58. CameronB Brodie says:

      Whatr about Stand Up for Scotland?

      The Pathology of Patriarchy and Family Inequalities

      Everyone in the world belongs to at least two families: the one in to which we were born and the ones we create in adulthood. Underlying this shared global experience is a wealth of individual diversity in how family shapes us emotionally, physically, and economically throughout our lives and, in turn, the lives of our children.

      The first goal of this chapter is to present a holistic conceptual frame for comparing the group inequalities in inputs, family processes, and outcomes discussed in the other chapters of this volume. Crucially, the frame highlights that relative group differences over time and across countries are configured at the intersections of family, market, and state institutions….

    59. Ken500 says:

      If Boris wins and tries a no deal Brexit the Tories will lose a GE. Definitely from the fall out. They have little chance of winning one now. Support among the electorate for a no deal Brexit is limited. It is Tory members and declining voters being considered. Aka Thatcher. Remarkable similar EU considerations.

    60. Ken500 says:

      ‘The lady not for turning’ etc. The lady was out.

      The Tories will stagger on until a GE.

    61. schrodingers cat says:

      this poll suggesting that almost a quarter of Tory members in Scotland would prefer to deliver Brexit for their membership down south even if it means an end to the union it’s becoming clearer that Ruth Davidson has little authority in her party in Scotland. This poll is an utter disaster for her and shows that her authority is seeping away at an incredible rate, leaving her increasingly isolated.

      as i said, ruthie spent the weekend campaigning in england,

      rearrange the following

      ship, deserting rats ……..etc etc

    62. Joe says:

      A couple of points –

      1 – no deal Brexit does not mean destruction of UK economy. This doomsday scenario is simply not realistic. Its not a great option, but its ridiculous to get this hysterical about it. Any negative effect on UK imports and exports will be an equally negative effect on EU imports and exports – and the business sectors affected. You wont see it broadcasted but the EU is not in the position to not be nice to the worlds 6th biggest customer base off its shore. German business is certainly not ready to handle such an outcome and any European politician who positions themselves to hurt big business will suffer for it. Yeah I know, that’s a Unionist opinion. So I can go f**k myself etc. But consider that many of us were happy to have Scotland out of the EU if thats what it took to leave the UK back in 2014. None of us were as skeptical of that, were we?

      2 – A Jeremy Corbyn government, given his suggested policies, could perhaps be worse in the long run than a no deal brexit. Like it or not we still live in a capitalist society and our ability to compete as a country depends on our ability to attract business and keep capital owners. I know it will annoy those who have no economic education but there are plenty of places in the world businesses and capital owners can go to if Britain becomes too hostile towards them. Then goes jobs. Then goes money. Then goes the tax base. More debt anyone?

      You can call tories greedy bstds, racists etc. But the truth is most of them know money more than many of you (including the author if this article apparently) and there’s good reason to fear a Corbyn government more than a no deal Brexit in the long run. Tax has to come from somewhere and like milk you dont do any good by milking the cow too hard, especially when that cow can f**k off to new pastures.

      People need jobs. Not welfare. Currently employment is the highest its been for a long time. These are the ‘good’ times. That will change drastically under a economically illiterate Corbyn government.

      Go on. You can all hate me now.

    63. CameronB Brodie says:

      From an anthropological perspective, state power is considered masculine and is opposed to social emancipation. So here’s one for those who consider me a feminist extremist divorced from reality. The full-English Brexit will enforce legal violence on the legal identity of all Scotland’s nationals. It will strip us of our EU legal identity. This is the essence of political patriarchy, the opposite of ‘liberal’ democracy.

      The Gendered Nature of Policy Discourse: Patriarchy, Pathology or is there a Third Way?

      Everyone in the world belongs to at least two families: the one in to which we were born and the ones we create in adulthood. Underlying this shared global experience is a wealth of individual diversity in how family shapes us emotionally, physically, and economically throughout our lives and, in turn, the lives of our children.

      The first goal of this chapter is to present a holistic conceptual frame for comparing the group inequalities in inputs, family processes, and outcomes discussed in the other chapters of this volume. Crucially, the frame highlights that relative group differences over time and across countries are configured at the intersections of family, market, and state institutions….

    64. Ken500 says:

      What has improved the Scottish (UK) economy since the 1980’s. Devolution. (2000) The demise of Thatcher and improved ties with the EU. The reason why Thatcher was gone. Labour/unionists spoiled the Scottish/UK/EU/world economy with illegal wars. They cause the migration crisis.

    65. schrodingers cat says:

      Boris Johnson – 126

      Jeremy Hunt – 46

      Michael Gove – 41

      Dominic Raab – 30

      Sajid Javid – 33

      Rory Stewart – 37

    66. Welsh Sion says:


      Boris Johnson – 126
      Jeremy Hunt – 46
      Michael Gove – 41
      Dominic Raab – 30
      Sajid Javid – 33
      Rory Stewart – 37

    67. Ken500 says:

      There will be no room elsewhere for Davidson, such is the demise. Pathetic attempt for recognition. Another unique failure.

    68. ahundredthidiot says:

      Demonic Raab is ooot

    69. Maria F says:

      Doug Bryce says:
      18 June, 2019 at 3:09 pm

      “They honestly believe England would be better off with out North Sea oil”

      Doug, the oil and THE REST.

      The oil is only a fraction of what England is sucking from Scotland.

      Electricity, gas, human resources, fresh water, wind power potential, tidal power potential, sun power potential, land, the longest coastline in the UK, the best fishing waters in Europe, waters deep enough to keep their warmongers’ WMD far away from their beloved SE of England, plenty of food and where to grow it, exceptional quality meat and fish, revenues and jobs spinning from fishing, whisky, tourism, subsides for their broadcasting, subsides for their vanity projects, subsides for their ports, subsides for their infrastructure, subsides for the extra army personnel in England compared with Scotland and of course a wonderful market for England to sell its products.

      Most HQ of the businesses operating in Scotland are in England and therefore most of Scotland’s corporation tax and a good chunk of other taxes are paid directly in England, together with our DVLA, NI, TV tax etc. This also means that there are an awful lot of jobs that are created in England thanks to Scotland’s economic activities. All those HQ and jobs will be in Scotland should it become independent.

      Have you noticed the considerable increase in food products coming from England in the last year or so when before most of those products were coming from EU? I have. It is like England is taking over the share of the market that all the EU countries put together had before – the great beneficiary of brexit in the “UK single market” is, for what I can see in the supermarket shelves, England hands down.

      The nonsense of the UJ flags in our food is in my view a way to disguise just how much England’s exports rely on Scotland and Wales and just how few native produce in Scotland we have compared with England produce.

      Packing and preparing food and all the jobs these bring also take part mostly in England. It is not just the jobs that those generate, it is the taxes they generate and the fact that each salary becomes a wealth creator that demands services, housing etc.

      Our produce leaves the UK from England ports, leaving revenues and jobs in their way. Should Scotland have its own developed international ports and those jobs and revenues would be left in Scotland, not England.

      Scotland is being deliberately kept underdeveloped in this union so it acts as a consumer within England’s “domestic/internal” market and does not compete with England, which it would if Scotland was a producer. If you look around you realise the stake of England in Scotland’s economic activities is simply enormous and extends well, well beyond the oil.

    70. galamcennalath says:

      Boris Johnson – 126

      Jeremy Hunt – 46

      Michael Gove – 41

      Dominic Raab – 30

      Sajid Javid – 33

      Rory Stewart – 37

      … all bollocks, why don’t they just appoint Johnson?

    71. Ken500 says:

      Who gets knocked out now? What a bunch of losers. Johnstone would not last till October. A non functioning Gov.

    72. Ken500 says:

      Rory Stewart gets knocked out? The one who was being promoted. Who cares?

    73. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, the correct abstract and link for the ‘policy discorse’ paper.

      Revised Abstract

      The paper provides a critical analysis of the gendered nature of policy discourses. Drawing on documentary analysis and empirical work we explore the development and influences informing the changing UK discourses around domestic violence and anti-social behaviour.

      While these two issues have emerged as fields of social policy concern separately and over different time-frames they share a number of defining features and examination of these distinct discourses raises a number of key questions:

      • Whose behaviour is problematised?
      • How is responsibility and culpability apportioned for particular types of behaviour?
      • How does the construction of the problem inform the choice of interventions?

      A comparison of the different responses to anti-social behaviour and domestic violence illustrates the various ways in which social problems are gendered and highlights the way in which concepts of culpability and responsibility are variously employed in relation to women.

    74. twathater says:

      Joe the tory , we’re doomed doomed a tell ye, oor saviours are the corrupt , tax evading and avoiding , zero contract , foodbank promoting , poor welfare killing , elderly and disabled denying , austerity promoting ,rich tax cutting conservative capitalists, Joe thank fcuk some of us stupid jocks don’t believe you , and if you had any sense or compassion you would hate yourself

    75. Abulhaq says:

      The mindset that is happy to ditch Scotland also believes that things ‘post’ would essentially be the same, but only better. The UK would still be there, the union jack still flying, Ascot, the monarchy, snob knobs, not so public schools, capitalist oligarchs and sheikhs still flourishing in the Ruritanian wonderland….Well, good luck with that!
      Of course, we know better.
      The crocodiles are crying for Davidson’s band of NorthBrit Unionists.

    76. Muscleguy says:

      I think Boris as PM would see his poll numbers plummet through the floor when voters are faced with the actuality of it. He is reckoned to be the worst foreign secretary ever. Never up with his briefs for lack of actual effort, always just trying to wing it. The same when he was Mayor of London which is why he lost the next election. The reality of Boris is never as good as you think as I suspect most of the women he fathered children on now realise.

    77. Ken500 says:

      The rest of the UK has a massive balance of payments deficit. Not much gets produced there. A services economy. Selling financial services worldwide. Not goods. Most get imported. Including It is borrowings that keep it going. Car industry already down half re Brexit.

      Scotland has a much more balanced economy. Less balance of payments deficit. Scotland is self sufficient. Surplus in fuel and energy. 25%

    78. mike cassidy says:

      What Tories count to get to sleep?

      And make sure you’ve got £505 pounds minimum on you if you become critical during the night!

    79. Republicofscotland says:

      We must be prepared to abandon HMS Britain before we go down with it. Indyref2 it is then.

    80. Ken500 says:

      If half of the Tory imbeciles did not enter the contest. Half of them would be knocked out from the start. They are toast in any case. They do not care about anyone else but themselves. Boring.

    81. Breeks says:

      Joe says:
      18 June, 2019 at 5:52 pm
      A couple of points –

      1 – no deal Brexit does not mean destruction of UK economy. This doomsday scenario is simply not realistic. Its not a great option…

      Nobody hates you for putting your point of view Joe, but this doomsday scenario I reckon is pretty realistic. Brexit is expected to cause somewhere between a 2% and 8% shrink in Scotland’s GDP, depending on how hard a Brexit emerges. That means on the best predictions, Brexit will only be as bad as the 2008 Credit Crunch.

      You’re quite right. The UK did survive the credit crunch, but it destroyed my business that employed 7 people, and my personal trading conditions have not significantly recovered in over a decade. The world was changed forever by a 2% change in GDP.

      I wouldn’t be so ready to dismiss this doomsday scenario as scaremongering, because 2% is best case scenario. Worst case scenario is over four times worse than 2008, and worse too because 2008 was a global phenomenon. Brexit will see the UK economy thrown to the wolves. The British economy could suffer its own Wall St Crash of the 1920’s which wiped a vast fortune off the US economy, and preceded the Great Depression of the 20’s.

      With luck, it might not be be as bad as predicted, but for dubious gains, International ostracism and trashing of the UK’s reputation for decades, Brexit seems to be a completely asinine idea designed to benefit a tiny, tiny, minority of obscenely wealthy Financial buccaneers, and was only made palatable to the masses by a tissue of orchestrated lies and deception.

      Not a great option you say. Yeah. That’s one way of describing it.

    82. robertknight says:

      Can’t wait for the first Boris PMQ’s when Ian Blackford can wind him up to the point where the mask slips to reveal Boris in his full on Jockophobic glory.

      His minders can keep him from public scrutiny for the time being, but once at the dispatch box on a weekly basis, Blackford and Co. will needle him enough to send him into low Earth orbit.

      Just need to get enough popcorn in. Muahahahaha….

    83. schrodingers cat says:

      Muscleguy says:
      18 June, 2019 at 6:17 pm
      I think Boris as PM would see his poll numbers plummet through the floor when voters are faced with the actuality of it.

      there in lies the issue.

      no matter what is reported about bojo or trump for that matter, the traditional msm has lost much of its ability to affect public opinion. not only because people get their news from other sources (sm) but also because the general public no longer believe or trust the msm as they once did.

      this is what really annoys the bbc etc.

    84. Craig P says:

      Anyone who doesn’t find the discomfort of Scottish unionists hilarious is a better human than me.

    85. Terry callachan says:

      To Stuart mackay your post of 3.55 today

      Once we are independent do you think new SCOTTISH fishing boats will take the place of the ones currently landing fish at Peterhead Fraserburgh etc ?
      I kind of think that the same boats will be landing fish at the Scottish ports ,boats from all over Europe .
      Perhaps a new Scottish government in an independent Scotland will break the stranglehold the five or six big families have on the market , that would be good for local fishermen in Scotland we might even see fish being landed for local consumption at our wee fishing ports giving us what we send to have which is fish from sea to plate in a day.
      It can only get better for sure.

    86. Terry callachan says:

      To geeo…your post of 4.11 today.

      Sounds like you’ve been on the sauce too early again.
      Keep taking your medicine
      Get well soon

    87. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s a wee peek into what brought England’s population to vote for self-harm. The full-English Brexit was always a neo-liberalism con-job, even before it entered the public consciousness. Remember, austerity is the ideologically driven gutting of the social state. Scotland and N. Ireland also rejected the ‘nostalgic imperialism’ and racism that was at the heart of the Leave campaign.

      Austerity swung voters to Brexit – and now they are changing their minds

      The voters most badly hit by austerity cuts were those drawn to UKIP and who supported Leave in the EU referendum, argues Thiemo Fetzer (University of Warwick). Recent polling evidence suggests that it is these same voters who are now changing their minds about Brexit.

      Jeremy Corbyn, when asked in a recent interview whether he would stop Brexit if he could, said: “We can’t stop it. The referendum took place. Article 50 has been triggered. What we can do is recognise the reasons why people voted Leave.” A lot of research in the social sciences since the 2016 EU referendum have attempted to do just that: understand why a small majority of the electorate that turned out voted to Leave….

    88. galamcennalath says:

      @Craig P

      The Germans even have a word for it … schadenfreude.

      The BritNat’s precious Union is on awfully shoggly peg. The list of people who want to dissolve it grows daily.

    89. chicmac says:

      Rory De Tory starting to come up on the rails?

      From an indy perspective I think he would be our worst result although closely followed by Hunt.

    90. Abulhaq says:

      ‘Union’ Stewart’s address to the stones.
      …. “you couldn’t say to a partner who was threatening to leave that they were too poor to survive on their own, or that you didn’t care if they left or not … You have to say, I love you”.
      He hoped that would be the message of the stones.
      Rory’s Tories, alas, stone deaf?

    91. Lenny Hartley says:

      Chicman Boris only has to retain the votes he has to get on the shortlist of two and become PM as he is by far the choice of the Tory Members.

    92. Joe says:


      The causes of financial problems are about as important as the financial crash themselves.

      2008 was a systemic debt (obviously) problem. Its still there to a degree. It was global, and the global markets coming down brought everything with it

      Brexit is between 2 different economies – with the same economic interests. Yes the global economy is showing a steady slowdown and we are at the end of a long economic cycle but no-deal Brexit does not necessarily mean doomsday. It could. But its not written in stone.

      There is no reason the 6th biggest economy in the world can be written off by default in the current economic climate.

      In my opinion the biggest threat to Britain (and therefore Scotland) outside of Westminster is just how much the EU would need to see the UK to struggle post-Brexit versus the needs of its own constituents in the private sector. If the UK didnt struggle post Brexit then it would send a message to the countries being poorly served by the Euro that just maybe there’s other options.

      But saying that, the leadership prospects of the UK is pretty bleak. So im not ruling anything out.

      @ Twathater

      Hi friend. I used to be like you. Once. You will get over it 🙂

    93. ahundredthidiot says:

      If Javid has any self-respect he would duck out

      (maybe take wee ruthie with him)


    94. Arthur Thomson says:

      Boris the buffoon for PM. Sounds good to me. A walking, talking advert for British exceptionalism. Exceptionally stupid.

      Sadly, I have grave doubts that even the Brits are daft enough to make it happen. However, I will keep my fingers crossed.

      Brexit is,however, the gift that keeps giving. Whoever they choose is going to be in the proverbial. The shambles is going to continue and the influence of the Brits is going to diminish month by month. That will make for a much safer world.

    95. CameronB Brodie says:

      “Brexit is between 2 different economies – with the same economic interests. Yes the global economy is showing a steady slowdown and we are at the end of a long economic cycle but no-deal Brexit does not necessarily mean doomsday. It could. But its not written in stone.”

      The first duty of government is to do no harm. I would have thought you’d have supported cautious pragmatism in government, as you appear to be a right-winger. However, you appear to be defending ideological extremism and governmental chaos. Now why would you do that? Are you simply here to muddy the waters?

    96. winifred mccartney says:

      It seems that the tory members believe their own hype that England is subsidising Scotland – they are in for a rude awakening, and the sooner the better.

    97. Golfnut says:

      @ Terry Callaghan.

      No idea how they will sell the drop in GDP and revenue when the union ends, its their problem and to be honest I don’t care.

      The only way England can ‘ let Scotland go ‘, ( the arrogant tossers) is to repeal the English Act of Union and withdraw from the Treaty with Scotland.
      There are legal ramifications regarding that process and none of them would allow England to retain any asset within Scotland’s boundaries recognised internationally by legal jurisdiction. By the way, those assets within Scotland’s borders will include Trident.

    98. auld highlander says:

      Mike Cassidy at 6.25

      That’s frightening and worth posting to everybody on our email address books as there are many people out there who don’t tweet or do fb etc

      One thing for sure it will empty the waiting rooms.

    99. Welsh Sion says:

      From Nicola Sturgeon’s speech to Reform Scotland tonight:

      “It is surely deeply concerning that the Conservative party is even contemplating putting into the office of prime minister someone whose tenure as foreign secretary was risible, lacking in any seriousness of purpose or basic competence and who, over the years, has gratuitously offended so many, from gay people, to Africans, Muslim women and many others.

      But while that, for now, is a matter for the Tories it does further illustrate the different political trajectories of Scotland and other parts of the UK. And it raises the more fundamental question of whether the UK and therefore devolution, in its current form is capable of accommodating those differences.

      I have to be candid and admit I’m not a neutral observer of these matters but it does seem to me that these days, the unionist offer to Scotland amounts to not much more than: ‘Your views don’t matter, do as you’re told and, if you don’t like it, tough, we’ll do it anyway.’

      Brexit starkly illustrates the point. The votes of people here have been ignored. The Scottish government’s attempt at compromise was rejected. And voters in the Scottish parliament opposing Brexit and a subsequent power grab were disregarded.”

    100. Joe says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      No. But sometimes there nothing but a choice between 2 bad situations. If this was easy it wouldnt be an issue. Would it?

    101. Abulhaq says:

      @Arthur Thomson
      Johnson is no buffoon, neither is he stupid, he just plays up to the type, something of a ‘ploy’.
      He is considered ‘lazy’ but so was Cameron. His outlook is rather 19th century, there is something of the Disraeli about him. As PM he should be anything but dull and in common with rest of his ‘genre’ he knows little about Scotland beyond crude stereotype.

    102. Terry callachan says:

      Housing benefit shortfall
      Where housing benefit paid is less than the actual rent

      Here is a very interesting Supreme Court case for all those poor souls who have to endure the british social security system.
      Up until now anyone getting housing benefit that amounted to a sum less than the actual rent they were paying
      was expected to meet the shortfall from their income support / other benefits

      This court decision turns that on its head by saying that
      social security benefits like income support are paid at a level that meets the cost of living but
      does not provide for any more than that basic cost of living
      so the court finds that it is wholly unreasonable to expect a person to meet the shortfall in rent from benefits such as income support that do not provide anything for extras

      Great result

    103. CameronB Brodie says:

      So we appear to have reached consensus on the full-English Brexit being bad. How do we move on from this practical and pragmatic political agreement? Perhaps through recourse to the rule-of-law (see the Treaties of Union and International Public Law)?

    104. Abulhaq says:

      UKGBNI assets abroad eg diplomatic facilities would not be ‘immune’ either. The division of the accrued state assets could be one of the most contentious issues. Interesting times ahead and an acid test of whether the UK is a partnership or just a Greater England.

    105. Terry callachan says:


      I agree with you , the division of assets will indeed be contentious.
      You just have to look at the so called British Museum where thousands and thousands
      of stolen artefacts are displayed and stored
      Calls for the return of such valuables to the country from which they were looted forever fall on deaf ears

      You jus have to see how the Westminster government behaves with other nations to get a taste of what is ahead when Scotland becomes independent

    106. Terry callachan says:

      Here’s an interesting news report

      Spain telling UK govt and NATO that it wants Gibraltar back and wants UK to leave

    107. Golfnut says:


      Equally frustrating for them is Scotland’s control of the crown and therefore the crowns assets. The most compelling reason for Scotland not becoming a republic until at least those issues have been settled.

    108. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Joe @ 17:52,

      I don’t know why you’re still on here bothering to peddle this UKOK Brexitpish. Unless someone’s paying you to do it. Recently a whole raft of business leaders appeared before an HoC committee and they were all in mutual agreement and telling a very different story. (The link was recently posted on WoS.) But just like the rest of the deluded Tory masses who would even prefer their own party to self destruct rather than recognise reality, you somehow know better.

      Well, tell you what. Put your feet where your mouth is and toddle off to England Brexitland (if you’re not already there) and face the consequences, whatever they may be, while we’re off doing things our own way. Together with a bunch of sensible English folk who are joining us to escape your fate.

      We’ll all wave as your Brexittanic goes down.

    109. Arthur Thomson says:


      Nope. He is a genuine buffoon. He has been hyped up by the media because it serves their purpose.

      As it happens it serves my purpose too, so for now I don’t mind.

      But will the Brits be daft enough to have him as a figurehead? I hope so.

    110. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Terry callachan @ 20:27:

      the division of assets will indeed be contentious.

      Oh dear, we’d better call off independence then.

      One of the weapons of choice of insecure and unrepresentative elites that’s well-known but not much talked about in an indy context, though Peter Bell did have a go recently, is the tactic of causing so much dismay and confusion that no-one can see a clear path through, so the opposition can never make sufficient headway. People cling to old habits by default. So anyone who pops up on the likes of here to predict mayhem, problems, difficulties, “civil war”, etc., etc., is wittingly or unwittingly serving the ends of the Union.

      Beware of such confusion generators, mark them but otherwise ignore them. They only do us harm.

    111. Stuart MacKay says:

      Terry callachan @ 6:54pm

      Given the general state of fisheries I don’t know enough to say anything about new boats. However I do know there won’t any from south of the border fishing in Scottish waters after independence so there must be opportunity right there.

      One of the true strengths of the independence movement is the desire to do things better. Whether the subject is land reform or fishing rights there is a tremendous opportunity to create a fair and just
      society for all.

      More local fishing could help rejuvenate a lot of small villages around the cost and so help stem the decline of the past two centuries. Norway has a policy of putting money into remote areas to keep them populated. I don’t see why a re-invigorated Scotland could not do the same.

    112. CameronB Brodie says:

      OT re. the Scottish Greens and their inability to support sex-classes grounded in biology. This displays a worrying ignorance of “sex and gender”, “human rights”, “equality”, “legal reason” and a whole bunch of other fundamentally important important stuff. Like sexual equality and open society.

      Pressing for progress:
      women’s rights and gender equality in 2018
      Full report and recommendations


      This report represents the response of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (the EHRC) to the UK Government’s eighth periodic report to the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women.

      The EHRC recognises and commends the progress made in the implementation of the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) since it was last reviewed in 2013, including:

      • criminalising forced marriage (see page 43)
      • introducing the Modern Slavery Act (see page 53)
      • introducing shared parental leave (see page 82)
      • bringing in tougher gender pay gap regulations (see page 89), and
      • committing to establish mandatory, age-appropriate relationships and sex education (see page 103).

      Nevertheless, we also focus on areas in which there has been insufficient progress, or are ongoing challenges in the realisation of CEDAW. Our report relates to 73% of the substantive Concluding Observations issued by the CEDAW Committee in 2013, many of which are still outstanding or not fully implemented.

      Women’s rights, gender equality and social norms have been the subject of much national and international debate in recent months. In the UK, a series of incidents have called into question the rigid set of assumptions many still have of women and girls and the significant problems they face, such as sexual harassment in schools and in the workplace (see pages 83-85 and 104-107).

      This wide-ranging report – our broadest ever review into women’s rights – seeks to demonstrate the extent to which gender inequality affects the various facets of women’s lives. Recognising that women have diverse lived experiences, we have sought to include intersectional analysis where evidence allowed. However, persistent gaps in data disaggregated by protected characteristics remain, making itharder to identify multiple discrimination and disadvantage.

      The EHRC is clear, however, that CEDAW protects and relates to all women, and our recommendations should be read as applying to all groups of women.

    113. Big Jock says:

      Rory Stewart is described by the media as a Scot!

      Let’s study this.Born in Hong Kong to his Edinburgh father. Grew up in Malaysia. Moved to England to go to Eton School. Studied at Oxford. Now represents an English seat.Never lived in Scotland.

      His sense of entitlement is based on his name and his dad’s lineage. I have an Irish surname,but was born and raised in Scotland. His type probably still think the unionist ancestral Scot is a real Scot. As far as I am concerned he is not entitled to speak for the people who actually live in Scotland. We are the Scots regardless of lineage.

      It’s patronising and sinister to think otherwise.

    114. call me dave says:

      Ruthie tonight: Archive wont work.
      Scottish Tory leader Ruth Davidson has told party members who would put Brexit ahead of preserving the UK union to “take a long, hard look at themselves”.

      Ms Davidson said the 2016 EU referendum result should be delivered, “but not at the expense of breaking up the UK”.

      She also said her chosen candidate in the leadership race, Sajid Javid, was “doing really well in the debates”.


      SG to make statement on Thursday re: Gender issues.

    115. Dr Jim says:

      Just when you think you’ve read and heard all the stupid, more stupid pops up

      I just read some woman writing to the National that Scotland will still be *ruled* by HM the Queen even after Independence

      There are actually people who think the Queen has something to do with the governance of anywhere

    116. Terry callachan says:

      Stuart mackay …well said
      Oh it would be absolutely marvellous is Scotland could do all that just like Norway

    117. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 18:05,
      Welsh Sion @ 18:05,
      galamcennalath @ 18:07,

      Thanks, all, for the update. I had missed today’s episode of this curious new TV series challenging the well-known “Big Brother”.

      Although somewhat disappointing that only one dud got voted out of the house this time round, it leaves lots to anticipate for the next episode!

      Oh, and isn’t (wasn’t) there another bun fight on telly tonight? They must be trying to emulate that old chestnut “It’s a knockout” as well, the shamelessly-derivative copycats!


    118. Big Jock says:

      Yep but even at that. I think Scotland will become a republic 10 years after indi.

    119. Robert Peffers says:

      @Joe says: 18 June, 2019 at 5:52 pm:

      ” … Go on. You can all hate me now.”

      Not our style Joe. We don’t go in for hate. We have other motives for wanting independence. No one wishes harm or hardship to the people of England. They are, after all just as much victims of The Westminster Establishment as are the people of Scotland, Ireland and Wales.

      But if you seriously imagine that the EU will come to some easy-ozzie arrangement with an non-EU Westminster you best think again. There are many reasons but most of all because if they did then every other EU member state would demand at least as good a deal, if not a better one, than Westminster got.

      Not to mention every other non-EU member state on the planet would also demand as good a deal as an independent Westminster was granted.

      The hard facts are plain to see. Yes The UK leaving the EU will indeed hit both but it will, without doubt, hit the UK much harder not even just as a matter of scale but also from other things.

      Everything imported and exported to the UK must come and go by either air or sea for the Chunnel or even Channel Ferries are going to be out of the question for most things. There is no suggestion trade between the EU and UK will not continue post Brexit – of course it will. It will just be a damned site more costly, difficult and take much longer.

      For example much of the UK’s fresh fruit and vegetables comes in from Europe but it isn’t going to be very fresh when there are customs and border controls to negotiate with long delays. All traffic will suffer. While the EU member states can find alternative markets as the EU is surrounded by other non-EU markets the UK will be a small enclave like island with no border anywhere than the Republic of Ireland but I’d bet that on a Brexit Ireland will most likely unify and even that border will close.

      Then, when Scotland goes the UK will instantly lose all oil and gas revenue and that nice wee scam of National Grid Connection Charges will stop on day one also. I could point out much more but why bother? Nothing now is more certain than either a no-deal Brexit or the almost as bad one May tried to set up.

      There is one out and I cannot see that happening now. Cancel Brexit is the common sense solution but Westminster’s common sense has gone long ago.

    120. Terry callachan says:

      Robert j Sutherland 9.18pm

      Very true

      I do believe though that Westminster will cause trouble in Scotland before we get independence

    121. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “UKGBNI assets abroad eg diplomatic facilities would not be ‘immune’ either.”

      You are correct @Abulhaq and @Golfnut say but there is nothing contentious about it:

      Zero share of assets accrued = Zero share of debts accrued (Ye Olde £15 Billion ‘Black Hole’ an iScotland would pay off in short order).

      This would include Gibraltar (granted via Treaty of Utrecht 1714) @Terry callachan says at 8:32 pm

      Irish Free State set this precedent.

    122. Ghillie says:

      Am I reading this correctly?

      The Tory and Unionists in Scotland seem to be caught with a catch 22.

      Those that want a Full English Brexit at any cost stand to lose the Union and will be left in an Independent Scotland YES!!! within the EU.

      Any road, I wonder how Tory members in Scotland feel right now having just seen how their comrades down south feel about them? Ooofft.

    123. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “More local fishing could help rejuvenate a lot of small villages around the cost and so help stem the decline of the past two centuries. Norway has a policy of putting money into remote areas to keep them populated. I don’t see why a re-invigorated Scotland could not do the same.”

      Fully agree with you @Stuart MacKay says at 9:23 pm

      But that would mean EFTA Membership (like Norway) rather than EU Membership (so something to be settled post Indy).

      I do however, believe that EFTA would be the best option for an iScotland, the best of both worlds (the 4 Freedoms but not tied to stringent EU rules which discriminate against local procurement, funding of agriculture etc.)

      We need Indy 1st though.

    124. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. the pending SG announcement on gender issues. I hope for the love of sanity that their consideration is based on legal reason and not the ‘feelz’ nonsense touted by Stonewall UK and Mermaids.

      Women, Rights of, International Protection

    125. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. Rory the Tory’s inability to sit properly. His body language suggests a suppressed sex-drive, IMHO. Is he getting enough luvin’, in his life as prospective Druid for Middle England? 🙂

    126. Abulhaq says:

      @Arthur Thomson
      On the evidence of the Tory grassroots his PMship seems likely. A good thing? Here’s hoping for a ‘interesting and politically useful muddle’.
      The question of joint assets has been referred to in more obscure media as a consequence of independence and an inevitable loss of face at the ‘centre’ has been predicted as a result of any agreed settlement, but first things first.

    127. Terry callachan says:

      Here we have New Zealand drawing a map of the Middle East showing Israel as Palestine
      with Israel nowhere to be seen
      It was all meant to be educational for immigrants arriving in New Zealand
      But the local Israelis complained that it was insulting and compared it to a map of Britain showing the whole island as England with no mention of wales or Scotland

      I’m sure I’ve seen maps like that where Scotland is not shown

    128. geeo says:

      Golfnut @7.29pm

      The only way England can ‘ let Scotland go ‘, ( the arrogant tossers) is to repeal the English Act of Union and withdraw from the Treaty with Scotland.

      Trouble with that is, there is not an English Parliament sitting at present (nor for over 300 years) which can repeal said English Act of Union.

    129. Terry callachan says:

      Wow another first for Scotland
      Glasgow university can do a 3D image of a face from a persons thoughts WOW again
      that’s amazing

      Hope it’s only from the neck up they can do…..haha

    130. Auld Rock says:

      Gus1940 suggests, rightly in my opinion, that there could well be violent unrest in England if as we all now think Brexit goes ‘pear-shaped’. I would go so far as to suggest it could be the cause of the second ‘English Civil War’!!!

    131. geeo says:

      Someone earlier said WM would be difficult to deal with post Yes vote.

      You reckon ?

      Scotland: “Hi, Scotland here, lets split up amicably, sort the assets etc like mature adults”

      WM: “nah, lets be dicks about it, what you going to do about it” ?

      Scotland: “ok, move yer nukes from Scotland, warheads and Subs, with IMMEDIATE effect, hope that doesn’t affect and continuing seat on the UN security council later for you.

      And thats just our opening salvo”.

      Scotland holds all the big post Yes cards here.

    132. Big Jock says:

      It’s often said that Scotland will have to do something illegal before we get independence. I now suspect that WM will be the ones breaking international law. Scotland will have to rise against the act of England trying to shut down its parliament.

    133. Welsh Sion says:

      Geeo @ 10.17 pm

      I agree that an English Parliament has not sat for over 300 years. But remember, a UK Parliament voted in December 1993 to repeal the ‘Acts of Union’ (aka ‘Laws in Wales Acts 1535-1542) in their entirety, this annulling our ‘union’ with England.

    134. Footsoldier says:

      What is frustration?

      BBC Scotland:
      When Nicola comments HYS opened.
      When Ruth speaks, HYS firmly closed.

    135. Breeks says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      18 June, 2019 at 10:08 pm
      re. Rory the Tory’s inability to sit properly. His body language suggests a suppressed sex-drive, IMHO. Is he getting enough luvin’, in his life as prospective Druid for Middle England?

      Don’t know about luvin’, but a few bowls of mince and tatties wouldn’t do him any harm.

    136. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The chip shop in Oban that put our Margaret Palmer-Brown out because she was wearing a Saltire on Saturday features in the National (Wednesday)

    137. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. the future of Scotland in Brexitania. Scotland should never be faced with such a threat but Tories tend to be ‘pragmatists’ when it comes to moral reason and the rule-of-law. The British constitution is also either ‘optional documentation’ or it is intrinsically incapable of protecting the human rights of Scotland’s public. British constitutional law allegedly aims at ensuring natural justice between the nations. Apparently that was scotch mist.

      I do hope Joe doesn’t feel International Law to be too liberal and woke. Nah I don’t. 🙂

      The Concept of Legitimacy and International Law


      In recent decades the term ‘legitimacy’ has featured heavily in debates about international law and international institutions. Yet the concept of legitimacy, mercurial as it is, has remained under-scrutinised, leading to confusion and misuse. Rather than seeking to advance a particular conception of what may make international law legitimate, this paper seeks to clarify and complicate how international lawyers understand and use legitimacy as a concept.

      To begin, the paper distinguishes between legal, moral and social legitimacy. It highlights the different ways in which these three approaches to legitimacy have been used in international law scholarship, while drawing attention to some of their more problematic tendencies. From there, it breaks the concept of legitimacy down into three major components: its object, subject and basis. It argues that the tendency to blur these elements has led to much of the
      uncertainty and obfuscation in legitimacy debates.

      Finally, the paper considers how legitimacy may be distinguished from coercion, self-interest and habit. Ultimately, it argues that if treated with sufficient rigour, legitimacy provides a useful analytical concept for international lawyers. In doing so, it aims to encourage and facilitate the participation of international lawyers in broader inter-disciplinary debates about legitimacy.

    138. CameronB Brodie says:

      Indeed. He doesn’t look well (genuine observation).

    139. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry for making you singular.


      More on what the full-English Brexit compromises. When you start making administrative law to suite the criminals, you have entered a very uncertain legal environment. This is how international fascism operates, by undermining liberal values and social practice.

      International Law and Justice
      Working Papers

      History and Theory of International Law Series

    140. HandandShrimp says:

      If the SNP were to take all 59 seats I would be inclined to say that draws a line under the union and let’s just start negotiating independence.

    141. Robert Peffers says:

      @Joe says: 18 June, 2019 at 7:09 pm

      ” … The causes of financial problems are about as important as the financial crash themselves.
      2008 was a systemic debt (obviously) problem. Its still there to a degree. It was global, and the global markets coming down brought everything with it.”

      Joe, You are becoming ever more delusional.

      Not only are you making things seem far more complex than they really are but you are attempting to explain solutions to problems that do not exist.

      It is really as simple as this – The UK has for very many years been importing far more than it exports. Hence the national debt that doesn’t just increase at a uniform rate. It accelerates at an ever increasing rate.

      see here:-

      Now here are a few other facts – Scotland is a net exporter – England/UK is a net importer. However, Westminster has, as long as I can remember, been cheating Scotland in so many ways it would take more time and space than I have here to explain. but we will begin with the oil & gas revenues that are up to 98% from internationally recognised Scottish Territorial Waters. Recognised by the international law of the seas as under Scottish jurisdiction.

      Not one single penny of that revenue comes to Scotland it is classed by Westminster as being extracted from, “United Kingdom Extra Regio Territory”.

      Now here’s the thing, The Office of National Statistics defines what is meant by the phrase, “extraregio Territory”, thus:-

      “The economic territory of a country can be broken down into regional and extraregio territory.

      The extraregio territory is made up of parts of the economic territory of a country which cannot be attached directly to a single region”.

      So, in the first place the United Kingdom is not a country – it is a united kingdom composed of two, equally sovereign, kingdoms.

      In the second place Scotland is not a region of either England or of the United Kingdom. Scotland is an equally sovereign partner kingdom in the United Kingdom and furthermore the oil & gas revenues can be identified as from Scottish waters.

      So let’s move on. In my youth I was a frequent user of the Portobello Outdoor Swimming pool. It stood just before the old Portobello coal fired power station. I had my heart set upon a career in Electrical/Electronic Engineering so took a great interest in what was going on. In 1946 the first ever cross-border electricity cable for the new National Grid was constructed to carry electricity from Portobello over the border into England and Scotland has been a net exporter of Electric power ever since.

      Now here’s the thing – Westminster operates a system called, “Grid Connection Charges”. Now this system works completely opposite to the much loved Conservative Free Market Economy. In a free market economy a producer or seller of any commodity is entitled to demand the best possible price for their commodity, especially if it is a scarce commodity on the open market.

      Yet the Grid Connection charges to add electric power to the grid are set to increase as the distance of the generator is more distant from the main user base in and around London.

      Yet Scotland exported over 25% of her generated power to England last year – but wait a moment it gets worse for not only do they charge Scottish generators more but they actually subsidise generators in and around London.

      There are many more little scams extracting wealth from Scotland and taking to London and the South. For example VAT, Road Tax, Alcohol Duty, Road Fuel Duty, Betting tax and much more goes right into the London Treasury.

      So explain this – going by Government figures Scotland is a net exporter and England is a net importer. The Scottish Per Capita GDP is, in normal years, higher than the English Per Capita GDP.

      As Per Capita GDP is the total revenue raised in a given area divided by the total population of that same given area it means that each Scots is subsidising each Englander.

      Furthermore, there is a very good reason that the three devolved administrations all have different levels of block grant. Let me explain what the majority of English MPs do not understand.

      When a power is devolved it is taken from a Westminster Ministry and transferred to the devolved administration. That power needs to be financed and thus the money to run it is also devolved from that Westminster Ministry. Not only tat but the populations on both the devolved administrations and the one and only NOT devolved administration all vary in number.

      It follows therefore that as each devolved administration has different devolved powers and different levels of population that their block grants must of necessity all be a different per capita sum – except for England that still gets its services from the Westminster ministries but the calculations for England are masked by those ministries also funding what are called, “National”, treasures such as the Greenwich Observatory, National Museums, National Ballet, National Theatres and many buildings which, for some strange reason all seem to be in England and mainly in London – what a coincidence is that?

      I’ll stop now, Joe but there is much, much more to that theme but I’m sure you must be getting the basic idea just a little bit by now.

      So there is this bit though, on independence day it all grinds to a halt and we Scots stop subsidising the English.. That’s the English, who by no fault of their own, have been brain washed to believe they have been subsidising the Scots.

      Now just what do you imagine will happen to Westminster when the truth comes out and England has to stand upon her own feet?

    142. Golfnut says:


      The law makers of England could as a precursor create an English Parliament, or they could perhaps use EVEL. Would we really object to them using either of those options if it meant ending the Union. Scotland would of course make reciprocal arrangements.

    143. mike cassidy says:

      A companion piece to my 6.25

      Is this a nightmare look into our future health care if we don’t become independent?

      Or will independence see us playing healthcare-Canada to unhealthy England’s USA?

      (wouldn’t archive)

    144. CameronB Brodie says:

      I just hope that it is not all of Scotland’s judiciary that are ambivalent about Scotland’s constitutional status. That would suggest an institutional ambivalence towards the principle of universal human rights and is indicative of ‘One Nation’ Torydum.

      Human Rights, International Economic Law and ‘Constitutional Justice’


      According to J. Rawls, ‘in a constitutional regime with judicial review, public reason is the reason of its supreme court’; it is of constitutional importance for the ‘overlapping, constitutional consensus’ necessary for a stable and just society among free, equal, and rational citizens who tend to be deeply divided by conflicting moral, religious, and philosophical doctrines.1

      The European Court of Justice (ECJ), the European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR), and the European Free Trade Area (EFTA) Court successfully transformed the intergovernmental European Community (EC) treaties and the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) into constitutional orders founded on respect for human rights. Their ‘judicial constitutionalization’ of intergovernmental treaty regimes was accepted by citizens, national courts, parliaments, and governments because the judicial ‘European public reason’ protected more effectively individual rights and European ‘public goods’ (like the EC’s common market).

      The ‘Solange method’ of cooperation among European courts ‘as long as’ constitutional rights are adequately protected reflects an ‘overlapping constitutional consensus’ on the need for ‘constitutional justice’ in European law. The power-oriented rationality of governments interested in limiting their judicial accountability is increasingly challenged also in worldwide dispute settlement practices. Judicial interpretation of intergovernmental rules as protecting also individual rights may be justifiable notably in citizen-driven areas of international economic law protecting mutually beneficial cooperation among citizens and individual rights (e.g. of access to courts).

      Multilevel economic, environmental, and human rights governance can become more reasonable and more effective if national and international courts cooperate in protecting the rule of international law for the benefit of citizens (as ‘democratic principals’ of governments) with due regard for human rights and their constitutional concretization in national and international legal systems.

    145. schrodingers cat says:

      just watched

      brexit, the uncivil war

      i would urge you all to watch it

      there are many lessons in it for us

    146. stu mac says:

      @ Terry callachan says:
      18 June, 2019 at 10:18 pm

      Wow another first for Scotland
      Glasgow university can do a 3D image of a face from a persons thoughts WOW again that’s amazing
      Hope it’s only from the neck up they can do…..haha

      Amazing if it really can do that. I do doubt the idea of it being used with witnesses in trials, though. We obviously can recall faces clearly that we are familiar with but often witnesses only get brief and once-only views of people and there is the well known phenomena of people filling in details unconsciously which they never actually saw. Might be less reliable than photo-fit. Still an amazing thing though.

    147. Liz g says:

      Robert Peffers @ 11.22
      A may I also add Robert.
      That England almost since it’s inception,has never stood alone!
      England has always taken the resources of other countries…

      Not that yer people ever seen much of it,and yet her people seem unusually proud of their system so much so they can still be heard sayin “WE had a great Empire” and it never seems to dawn on them that they were in penuary during most of it????

    148. jfngw says:

      From ‘lead us don’t leave us’ to ‘why don’t you just f*** off’ in such a short timescale.

    149. jfngw says:


      The SNP will never take Orkney & Shetland, they will always return a LibDem. They voted for the proven liar Carmichael with an increased majority. I think they would even return Tommy Robinson if he told them he was a LibDem.

    150. Al-Stuart says:

      Apoogies for this, but when your in the mood, and McGonagall’s spirit gets hold…..

      Hi ho, hi ho, it’s off to work we go,
      With a ref-ref here and a ref-ref there,
      And a Bo-Jo toff for a square-go boff,
      Little England sighs and politically dies.

      Whilst Rooth the Mooth cries;
      Yer all obsessed with indy-refs,
      When all the polls say indy rules.
      Wingers bide & see Rev’s getting us free.

      And Nige the Milkshake, a political bawbee
      Has all the Tories making lots of jobbies,
      With Farage rants of Brexit,
      And Scots just want Sexit.

      But with all this chaos,
      Scotland finally gets it.
      The New York Clown,
      Does England down.

      The final act from these sad bawbags,
      No more Auld Lang Synne from these dismal swine,
      Soon cometh the time when Hamish roars…
      Leig leis Caesar! a bhith saor.

    151. Cubby says:

      Callachan @10.18pm

      “Glasgow university can do a 3D image of a face from a persons thoughts.”

      Well Terry old boy your face would be a right mess trying to deal with your two faced phoney independence thoughts.

      Oh and I have not touched any alcohol and my health is fine – so try and think up some other insult you Britnat tosser.

    152. Al-Stuart says:

      Ruddy autocorrect. Last line of course…

      Leig leis Caesar! a bhith saor.

    153. Jock McDonnell says:

      Surely it has to be a dirty Brexit in October & a quick GE.
      Thats what the polls would indicate. Whoever delivers a dirty Brexit, they will glide into No10.

    154. Al-Stuart says:

      That is odd. For some reason the WoS system outlaws let the word ” A.L.B.A.” And wont let it be posted. It substitutes the word Caesar! Instead. Bewildering.

    155. Jock McDonnell says:

      And this obsession with strengthening the union, that’s the problem right there. Too much union. It is not compulsory to have a united kingdom, this political entity is not set in stone, the British state is replaceable. Think out of the box. Its a temporary political agreement which has run its course. Time to dissolve it & if its of any value at all it might eventually re-form in a more contemporary agreement.

    156. Lenny Hartley says:

      its being doing that for years, and been commented on zillions of times. its to stop folk sighing of with S A O R A L B A !

    157. Dr Jim says:

      Tories now insisting Scotland gets all the oil money

      I think what they mean is we get all they give us from all they take

    158. schrodingers cat says:

      jfngw says:

      The SNP will never take Orkney & Shetland, they will always return a LibDem. They voted for the proven liar Carmichael with an increased majority.

      stranger things have happened

      if a brexit party candidate were to stand in a ge……. that might upset the unionist consensus which votes lib dem to keep out the snp

    159. CameronB Brodie says:

      Jock McDonnell
      I sense a touch of “Value Theory” in your comment. Which leads to the question, what is the purpose of a state if not to benefit the people? Which leads to the question, how does the British state benefit the people of Scotland? How does it value Scotland’s democracy? Why should Scotland value teh British state.

      Global Administrative Law:
      The Quest for Principles and Values


      There is currently much interest in the question whether a global administrative law is coming into being and, if so, whether this is desirable or otherwise. This paper addresses the question of principles for a global administrative law.

      It considers four potential sources and their suitability as a foundation for a global administrative law system: first, the largely procedural principles that have emerged in national administrative law systems, notably the principle of legality and due process principles (Section 3); second, the set of rule of law values, promoted by proponents of free trade and economic liberalism (Section 4); third, the good governance values, and more particularly transparency, participation and accountability, promoted by the World Bank and International Monetary Fund (Section 5); and finally, human rights values (Section 6).

      The paper ends on a sceptical note, concluding that a universal set of administrative law principles is difficult to identify and not especially desirable. First, administrative law is primarily a Western construct, protective of Western interests. It may impact unfavourably on developing economies. Secondly, the evolution of global administrative law in adjudicative forums is leading to an undesirable ‘juridification of the political process’. The paper concludes that diversity and pluralism are preferable.

      Over to you Scotland’s judiciary. Or are you all ambivalent about how the full-English Brexit denies Scotland natural justice and annihilates the moral law justification of Union?

    160. geeo says:


      That would get no argument from me, i was merely pointing out the technical detail.

      “There is no other treaty in the world I’m aware of where a sovereign nation undertakes to join up and can only leave when the other side says so”

      David Davis, showing a complete lack of awareness about his ‘precious’ union…!!!


      They must think folk are daft.

      Funny how they all want to leave the European Union but not the England/Scotland Union !

      Yet, in the next breath, try mock those of us who want to leave the Union with England but remain in the European Union.

      Again, they must think we zip up the back.

      Unionist logic i guess.

    161. iainmore says:

      Try telling the Quizzers that work in the nasty Brit Nat Press and Media in Scotland what the likely scenario is. They will still bend over and spread them for their Lords and Masters in London. Lets face it our Quizzers are diseased whores of the worst kind.

    162. iainmore says:

      I do find it refreshing that the Ruthless one is totally out of touch with her English Nationalist Party in Scotland.

    163. Benhope says:

      By clicking past CameronB Brodie and Terry Callachan had an informative and interesting read of wingers comments tonight.

      I feel a great sense of anticipation, exhilaration, nervousness about the coronation of Boris as PM.

      Is this the final game changer?

    164. CameronB Brodie says:

      This is why I don’t think anyone, especially those living in Scotland and N. Ireland, has the luxury of being ambivalent towards the full-English Brexit.

      Theories of Justice, Human Rights,
      and the Constitution of International Markets

      According to John Rawls, “[j]ustice is the first virtue of social institutions, as truth is of systems of thought.”1 This article argues that constitutional democracy and the universal recognition of human rights, as well as the need to legally constitute international markets for mutually beneficial cooperation among citizens across frontiers, offer a convincing framework for a modern, international theory of justice. This theory of justice takes into account the globalization of human rights and the need for non-discriminatory, rules-based market competition coordinating the global division of labor among producers, investors, traders, and consumers around the globe.

      Theories of justice and theories of human rights2 often neglect to recognize that markets are inevitable consequences of the protection of human rights. In order to create the resources necessary for enjoying human rights and to coordinate autonomous conduct of free people, markets need to be legally constituted so as to limit market failures and provide collective public goods. 3

      This article describes the emergence of international constitutional law, not only in the law of international organizations constituting legislative, executive, and judicial organs with mutual checks and balances, but also by means of universal recognition of inalienable human rights, additional constitutional rights, jus cogens, and erga omnes obligations in general international law.

      The need for, and difficulties of, “constitutionalizing” foreign policies and international economic markets, as well as “political markets” (such as for collective public goods), are discussed in the context of a theory of justice aimed at protecting human dignity and human rights at home and abroad.


      The United Nations (U.N.) Charter,4 the Treaty establishing the European Union (EU),5 the Draft Treaty Establishing a Constitutionfor Europe,6 as well as numerous other international treaties and national constitutions refer to justice as a central objective of international and national law. International legal theory also suggests that compliance with international rules (i.e., rule of law) depends no less on the perceived legitimacy of the international rules7 than on governments’ cost/benefit analyses8 and on the “internalization”9 of intergovernmental rules into domestic laws and policy-making processes.

      These assumptions of legal theory are consistent with those of political science, according to which political processes tend to be determined not only by the relative power and interests of the actors (e.g., by individual and collective
      utility maximization), but also by rules, institutions, and ideas (e.g., on justice).10

      Since the time of the ancient Greek philosophers Plato and Aristotle, legal philosophy has tended to define justice in terms of rational principles that justify the constitutional recognition of equal rights and fair procedures for the distribution of scarce resources.” Between the peace treaties of Westphalia in 1648 up to the end of the East/West divide in 1989, international legal theories focused on the sovereignty and consent of states and on the intergovernmental constitution of an international legal community.12

      The modern recognition – in numerous worldwide and regional human rights conventions and other human rights instruments – of “the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family [as] the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world”’13 requires basing international law, public policy, and justice on “normative individualism,” (i.e., that “all human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.”)’4

      Also, in international economic law, values and policies must be legitimized through individual consent, equal rights, and democratic procedures rather than only through utilitarian merchants’ philosophies of maximizing individual and social “utilities” on the basis of the measuring rod of money and abstract notions of “welfare” and “economic efficiency.”’15

      The universal recognition, evidenced in national constitutions (such as in Article 1 of the German Basic Law), EU law (Article 1 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (EU Charter)), the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) (i.e., Article 1), and in regional and worldwide human rights conventions, of inalienable human rights deriving from human dignity can be understood as requiring the interpretation of national and international law as a functional unity for promoting individual and democratic autonomy and diversity….

      P.S. I hope legal theory meets with Joe’s approval. Nah, only kidding.


    165. CameronB Brodie says:

      Everyone to there own. I’m not here to simply bump my gums though. Have you got a problem with that?

    166. Dr Jim says:

      Just watched the report on the extinction rebellion protest outside the Scottish parliament demanding changes to the time scale of the climate change bill and apparently four or five of these people were actually from Scotland the bulk of them travelled up from England where their own governments legislation falls far short of Holyroods

    167. Iain 2 says:

      I think it would be the decent thing to do that the people of Scotland grant England independence and let them brexit.

    168. Terry callachan says:

      To Robert peffers, great post at 1122pm about energy / power taken from Scotland to supply England and then charging Scotland a higher rate for its own energy than England is charged

    169. Terry callachan says:

      Benhope…that’s novel

    170. Breeks says:

      “Please, do not waste this time”,… Donald Tusk 11:04:2019

      Honestly, why did that demonstration of facile Tory rudeness and delusion have to be televised? Was it intended to progress anything? Or merely intended to document how dismal and surreal Westminster / Tory 21st Century Government truly is?

      Watching such a program is like peeling an orange where there’s no fruit inside, just peeling and more peeling, right down to the hollow disappointment of having nothing to show for your effort at the bitter end.

      How did this happen? How did it come to this? Who is responsible for this miserable, craven, wretched excuse for a government? I mean truly wretched and despicable from wall to wall and floor to ceiling.

      Please, do not waste this time. Pull the plug on this decrepit Parliament. It has lived too long in unsound mind.

    171. Gary says:

      So, of the two they’re willing to sacrifice ie Scotland & NI, NI is the one they’re keener to keep!

      And, of course, ANYTHING to prevent Corbyn getting power. OF all the Labour leaders since Callaghan, he is perhaps the best, it’s a pity he can’t make his own opinions policy in the party, or we’d have a Labour leader SUPPORTING Indy! And that WOULD get them votes in Scotland…

    172. winifred mccartney says:

      As we all know Ruthie gets going (into hiding) when the going gets tough but there she is this morning first out of the stalls giving us a statement that the union is more important than brexit, and the bbc give her an airing with no questions asked – and they keep telling us the bbc is impartial – on which planet would that be.

    173. JLT says:

      Over these last few weeks, where we have had an array of the most demented Tory chancers seeking power to this opinion poll, it is looking more likely that with each passing day, that the UK as a political entity is finished.

      Folk outside of Scottish nationalism talked of nationalists as being narrow-visioned and fanatical. Well, Brexiteers have taken it to another level altogether. So determined to have their Brexit, that all common sense and reason have been thrown out of the window. They would happily visit destruction of their own party, their economy and even the idea of Great Britain itself …just to they can get away from the their perception of a fascist-communist Europe whose sole purpose is to undermine England completely. It’s just …madness!!

      But this has been 70 years in the making. Victory over Hitler (won by the US and the Soviets in truth); the idea that the British Empire never died (because we have the Commonwealth …whoopity-dooo!); 1966 (enough said); 2003 (enough said again); a media that attacks Europeans and paints them as a lesser people than the British; the Falklands; the use of Argentina as a minor foe when things get boring; the paranoia and contempt held for the Muslim world …has created a mindset that is now so deeply entrenched because it straddles at least four generations, has left the UK Establishment with a problem so great, that to try and solve the mess that they have created, would require massive political change and the loss of their own power over the land, that the only way to truly reset the mindset – and save Britain as an entity – would be federalism. And Federalism will never happen as the English electorate for hundreds of years have been taught that the British Establishment are the governing force in running the country. They believe that if you went to Eton, Cambridge or Oxford, then you are a class above the rest of us and therefore our betters.

      Personally, I can’t see how the UK can go back to a time – say, pre-2007 – where everyone was perceived to be happy at being British. It’s now only a matter of when rather than how.

    174. Robert Louis says:

      Al-stuart at 1155pm,

      It is one of REV STU’s few failings, in that he doesn’t really like Gaelic, so bans people using the Gaelic word for Scotland. Yes, we all know it is stupid..

      I think he justifies it by saying it is to stop people putting the gaelic phrase (and I’ve had to amend it for it to show) S.O.@.R A1B@’. Another Gaelic phrase he doesn’t like. Their are several other harmless slogans he also won’t allow.

      He has what might be called ‘a very out of date English unionist view of Gaelic’. The kind of backward thinking about Gaelic which was prevalent in Schools in Scotland in the 60s and 70s.

      The inherent stupidity, is that people cannot even post about the gaelic BBC channel, called, BBC A1B@. It’s very petty and very dumb.

    175. skintybroko says:

      The debate was pathetic and pointless to the majority of the nation who have no say in who becomes next PM, we all know that whoever gets in will push for a no-deal Brexit and Scotland is toast. All we saw was a bunch of rich people discussing how much more they can shaft the UK to feather their own nests.

      Btw, Is Nana definitely in self imposed exile or can we look forward to her morning links. Be disappointing to see her disappear from the site after her wee fall-out with Stu.

    176. Ghillie says:

      Can our friend Welsh Sion post in Welsh?

      Call out to Welsh Sion!

      How do we say in Welsh that Scottish Gaelic phrase we hold dear but may not print?

      Pardon me while while I scitter about dodging hammers 🙂


    177. Ghillie says:

      Where is Nana?

      And where is Cactus? Away on his boat mibee?

      Did Cactus take Nana with him?

      He is a kind soul that way =)

      Seriously, where are they?

    178. DerekM says:


      Nothing to do with us vile cybernats nope sireee we were not there.
      Puts hands in pockets and tries to shuffle exit stage right with a suspicious yet slightly guilty whistle.

    179. Jock McDonnell says:

      And as I said before, we should not make this all about Boris – I believe some of the other candidates are more yoon than him & certainly more reactionary, they have more to prove to the tory grass roots. If we are too set in the belief that Boris is all the bad stuff, then people might be pleasantly surprised if he does not turn out to be as awful as predicted.

    180. Breeks says:

      Why the fk are we “joining” the EU if Scotland “won’t be removed against its will” in the first place?

    181. stu mac says:

      Returning to the OP, Tories may say they would be happy to break the union to get Brexit, you can be sure they see that as an “in extremis” option and would do anything and everything to stop independence even if we finally got a clear majority for it here.

    182. Breeks says:

      A quote from Wee Ginger Dug….

      “Well that must be a kick in the teeth, he tittered. It must be hard being a Scottish Tory. There you are, on your knees and faithfully licking the boots of the British Conservative establishment, and it only goes and kicks you in the gob. A poll of Conservative members carried out by YouGov has found that almost two thirds (63%) of Conservative party members would prefer to see Scotland become independent than for Brexit not to happen….”

      Aye, just imagine if Scotland had a sovereign Constitutional veto over Westminster… Say a majority of sovereign Scots had refused to give their assent for Scotland to be removed from Europe, and that Westminster had bound itself to respecting the sovereignty of the Scottish people….

    183. Robert Peffers says:

      @Al-Stuart says: 18 June, 2019 at 11:55 pm:

      ” … That is odd. For some reason the WoS system outlaws let the word ” A.L.B.A.” And wont let it be posted. It substitutes the word Caesar! Instead. Bewildering.”

      Really it is not odd, Al-Stuart.

      Rev Stu doesn’t want people to sign their comments at the end of their comment. That banned word is auto-changed to discourage a popular end signature.

    184. Abulhaq says:

      One question from Scotland on the lamentable BBC tv debate, on what they’d do about climate change, as if the candidates were graduates of Hogwarts. Staged managed and rather pointless. Johnson was bored, the rest gauchely self justifying and in the case of Stewart hot and jittery.
      Politics, Pyongyang style.

    185. call me dave says:

      Shortbread giving ‘expert’ Mr Lyons a space to question minimum pricing figures.

      Too much X-border smuggling goes unrecorded, most folk don’t buy cheaper brand and SG intervention is bad only penalising poor.

      SG minister on now with shortbread interviewer ‘Haley’ splashing diluting water on the figures ( only 8 months to date).

      But… But says Haley etc etc.

      Medical officer does well, not shaken or stirred.


      Nana! NanaNana heyhey whereareyou?

      Queen of the missing links… 🙂


      Got my Jackie B. calculator out and about to go through the permutations for Scotland’s footie team getting through to the last 16.

      Its on the Ceasar channel tonight. Fingers XXd.

    186. Welsh Sion says:

      Ghillie @ 7.34 am.

      I believe you’re looking for “Yr Caesar!n am byth!”. (I’m not really conversant in Scottish Gaelic although this is not a literal translation of “gu brath”. “snooker loopy!” incidentally has its parallel in Cymraeg as “brawd”.)

      I’ve charged £10.00 for less than this for translation – and got it – so count yourself lucky! 😀

    187. bjsalba says:

      In the absence of Nana, I proffer this Germon take on last night’s event.
      Kakophonie der Ratlosigkeiten
      Great Britain: Cacophony of helplessness

      Also these: Brexit: none of the above
      The intellectual bankruptcy of the no dealers

      Bear in mind that these last two are Flexiteers who wanted what was offered in the referendum campaign, that is being like Norway.

      Interestingly neither of them has seemed to notice the poll about the English Tories prefering Brexit to the UK Union.

    188. Robert Peffers says:

      By the way, Broadcasting Scotland covered this topic last night in their, “Scotland at 7”. broadcast:-

    189. Legerwood says:

      call me dave says:

      19 June, 2019 at 8:42 am

      Shortbread giving ‘expert’ Mr Lyons a space to question minimum pricing figures.””

      Never listen to the radio but the Herald had the story prominently on its front page this morning and it was by and large positive about the effects of minimum pricing of alcohol on drinking levels. The odd ‘but’ here and there but for once a pretty straightforward report from the Herald.


      On the subject of that poll and Ms Davidson being all over the media pontificating about it. One way to look at this is that she has ensured that it has received maximum publicity. Without her intervention it might have been buried without trace.

      I doubt she realised that her intervention would give the story legs although Glen Campbell did mention it in passing in his report on the leadership contest on Reporting Scotland. But it was a blink and you miss it moment.

      So well done Ms D.

    190. Welsh Sion says:

      “Yr @lb@n” is Cymraeg for “Scotland”. (We use the definite article before the name of the country in this case.)

    191. Ghillie says:

      Thankyou Welsh Sion!

      Yes I am lucky =)

      What is the Welsh equivalent to Soaralpa?

      We’ll be needing to know that too soon enough 🙂

    192. Liam says:


      I’ve read reports that the UK parliament may be prorogued. Blo Jo’s camp have said they will “absolutely” keep this option on the table to force the “Will of the People” past thoeir evil, elected representitves.

      If the WM parliament is prorogued (and I love how the Anglo centric media is currently having to explain that word thems down south) while Holyrood is still sitting, does the balance of power shift northward at all? Does it change anything?

    193. Gerry says:

      Good question. As far as i know, it’d be much the same as if the Civil Contingencies Act was rolled out. Don’t think it would change anything wrt devolved matters.

    194. Welsh Sion says:

      Ghillie @ 9.12 am.

      That would be ‘Cymru am byth!’ [approx. COME-ree am bith]. Thanks for your interest.

      Apparently, all of the ‘Celtic’ ones (Scottish Gaelic, Cymraeg, Cornish …) can be found under the initial one you typed in SG in Wikipedia. (I don’t know how accurate, mind …)

    195. Kangaroo says:

      This contains the following gems…..

      “Why should the majority be held hostage to the misanthropic SNP?”

      “Devolution has turned Scotland into a grubby little fiefdom of pseudo-progressives whose loyalty to Brussels is less about European identity than it is a political device to further divide the UK.”

      I am more than pissed off at this and have not yet commented about it. Perhaps those of you who would be civil in their response could go and set Pete North straight.

    196. Joe says:

      @Robert Peffers

      I appreciate the length of time you took to respond and theres a few things in there that I didnt know. However, contrary to what people think i do understand how badly shafted Scotland is by UK elites. I will repeat: under the right leadership an independent Scotland could be the wealthiest per capita country in Europe.

      My whole point on Brexit and economics is to be based on what the economic numbers are saying with regards to both the EU, its main constituent states and the UK.

      Neither of these parties can afford a hard Brexit now. Yes, Britain most of all. But in ‘proving a point’ the EU will take a kick at the knees of some of its main industries. As you said – the UK is a net importer.

      Germany is the economic engine of the EU. Its one of the 2 countries who have actually benefited from the Euro. Leading economic indicators (such as PMI’s) show Germany to be well ahead of the UK in terms of reaching 0 growth or a recession – and thats in the face of utterly shambolic leadership for 3 years. Unemployment is rife through southern Europe. Any impediment of access to UK markets is not an option unless they wish to see the ‘far-right’ (read: anyone who isnt politically correct and is Eurosceptic) rise even further politically.

      As for currency: a Balance of Payments surplus or deficit is dealt with easily by buying or selling the pound using foreign currency reserves. Its not a problem in and of itself and countries deal with this handily and regularly.

      The narrative is – the EU holds all the cards. Britain is just a shambles. Only mindless Britnats support Brexit.

      Its false. Its based on a forced narrow perspective (EU biased) of the situation. Calling a hard Brexit a default doomsday scenario is not by itself accurate. Only when you take into consideration the sheer ineptitude of the UK political class does it start to look like that is increasingly likely. It was NOT a definite outcome.

      There is nothing that is being said about the UK and Brexit now that wasnt used by the UK establishment against the Scots. There is no reason a well developed 1st world country needs to ‘crash’ by default for not cow towing to the EU or anyone else.

      As for cancelling Brexit or a 2nd referendum – lets pretend the UK cancels Brexit and we stay full members of the EU. Then Scotland somehow wins a 2nd referendum. What happens when the UK says we should cancel it or ‘reach a deal’ or ‘have another referendum’ because they have invented scare stories and tell Scots that they didnt know what they voted for? Thats what you will be tacitly supporting by cancelling Brexit. All the while the EU is so happy to have one of its major partners in the fold that they suddenly drop any pretense of ‘democracy’ and the fact that they dont really give a single smelly shit about Scotland or its people and Scotland was really only being used to add leverage to its side of the Brexit situation? Thats the future of further undermining the democratic franchise.

      As an addendum – it might seem slightly off topic but national debt is primarily a result of the debt based monetary system that has been foisted on us (almost globally). It is unnecessary. There is no need for any country to issue currency that has a debt price attached (and certainly not for that debt to be payable to private hyper-wealthy bond holders). Most of the taxes we pay now are to service this debt that doesnt have to exist.

      @Robert J Sutherland
      Im self employed. I considered joining military intelligence as a young man but decided against it. What I do try is to stay balanced about my opinions. Echo chambers aint healthy. Neither are hysterics.

    197. Welsh Sion says:

      Liam @ 9.23 am

      Here’s a start:

      And I agree with the previous. Matters in Cardiff and Edinburgh will not be affected – provided they are devolved issues. I don’t see any transfer of powers from Westminster to the WG or SG though, not least as they would have no power to do so. (Even if the did have the power, it would probably be through gritted teeth.)

    198. kapelmeister says:

      The unravelling of the UK state – it isnae a country – can, I reckon, be traced back to a day in Glasgow in 2011, when Labour’s Iain Gray made a monumental fool of himself with the Subway sandwich shop debacle.

      The resulting SNP majority at Holyrood led to the Edinburgh Agreement and so indyref1. The humiliation to the Britnats to see Scotland come close to voting for independence in front of a watching world, resulted in a turbo charge to the anti-EU cause in England.

      Now we have this poll of Tory members, a majority of whom believe in Brexit Uber Alles.

      Should have caught that train to Ayrshire Mr. Gray. Many thanks though.

    199. Ian mhor says:

      In the “About Us” link in the site there is a section on “Commenting”, which I tentatively suggest, should perhaps have a dedicated link, as it appears well down the relevant page and many people don’t bother getting that far.
      It explains a fair bit – everything from bizarre edits, missing posts and yes, even recently missing posters.

      Most of the “rules” are swerved here to a degree, without much repercussion or whoosh of a ban-hammer. It perhaps leads to a false sense of “Everything is permitted”.
      The abstruse automated filtering can therefore appear at times puzzling. On the few occasions the Rev engages in scholeric, manual moderation; it may also appear to the affected to be a very personal slight.

      I live in constant trepidation about my paragraph useage and ending sentences with a question mark. But then I was schooled under the tawse, so won’t bubble about it when it lands. Well, maybe a couple of wee hot drops.
      I definitely wouldn’t be complaining to my parents, for fear of another leathering for deserving it – hell no!

    200. Republicofscotland says:

      George street chippy (Oban) owned by die-hard unionist throws out pensioner into the pouring rain. Her crime? Carrying our national flag during the Oban AUOB march.

    201. Dr Jim says:

      Jeremy Hunt says the only way to negotiate Brexit properly is to have the DUP at the table along with the Government

      So a party who doesn’t even have the support of their own country who Scotland can’t vote for and a party who Scotland didn’t vote for are going to decide together the thing that Scotland voted against

      One other point, when the DUPs Arlene Foster went to Brussells she was accorded diplomatic support

      When Scotland’s elected First Minister went to Brussells diplomatic support was withdrawn……even though Scotland pays for it

    202. Giving Goose says:

      The George Street chippy in Oban should be boycotted by Scots.
      Take your custom elswehere.
      There is a restaurant in Inverness which I will not go to after the owner complained about the Indy March in Inverness.
      Stuff these people.

    203. Welsh Sion says:

      Dr Jim @ 10.26 am

      Agree with you completely.

      And just to adapt (factually) your final comment, too.

      “When Wales’s elected First Minister went to Brussels diplomatic support was withdrawn……even though Wales pays for it.”

      (Mr Drakeford was not a happy First Minister, either!)

    204. Welsh Sion says:

      Interesting reading for indy supporters:

      In this Policy Brief, Fabian Zuleeg examines the effect of Brexit on the independence debate in Scotland, and considers under what circumstances – and conditions – an independent Scotland could join the EU.

      In the end, if Scotland has become independent in a constitutional manner and is willing to go through the appropriate accession process, follows European principles, and is willing to commit to all the obligations that come with ‘regular’ EU membership, it would go against EU principles if the EU treats an independent Scotland different from any other accession hopeful.

      [Links to a .pdf]

    205. Arthur C says:

      Looking at this exchange I think Rev Stu has pissed Nana off.

    206. Breeks says:

      Genuine question… if Westminster Parliament is prorogued, just as Scotland’s 1707 Parliament was prorogued, doesn’t that mean “next goal’s the winner” for whichever Parliament “un”-prorogues itself first?

      Or are there uniquely “British” levels of proroguedness, where some Parliaments are more prorogued than others?

    207. Liam says:

      If this is the Chip shop in question:
      then we’re not missing much. My daughter bought chips there the other week when we were in town and she came out complaining that the guy behind the counter was seriously not going to win any customer service awards – she’s autistic. If she notices people are rude….

      The chips were less than stellar too.

    208. Effijy says:

      UK OKaye Adams on Radio Shortbread repeatedly suggesting that her guest Kez Dugdale
      Won her case against Wings Blogger Stuart Campbell???

      Several people have called to clarify that the Judge Ruled that you are not a homophobe!
      Dugdale didn’t understand what she was saying and she felt it was true so bizarrely you
      We’re not awarded cost?

    209. Breeks says:

      Special quote dedicated to the “beggar” retweeted on Rev’s Twitter feed…

      “If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”

      – Samuel Adams

    210. kapelmeister says:

      Ruth Davidson’s position needs clarification. She still supports Brexit but says it should not be at the expense of the union.

      Does this mean she might back down from supporting Brexit? Or does she merely wish her fellow Tories to stop saying to pollsters that they value Brexit more than they value the maintenance of the union?

      In other words is this another of Ruth’s famous lines in the sand or is she merely calling for an exercise in cosmetics whereby Tories pursue Brexit but keep quiet about it being more important to them than the union?

      After all she supports a leadership candidate who has said he’ll never agree to another indyref.

    211. Confused says:

      occasionally the more intelligent and creative unionist/ little englander/ brit nat comes up with this cunning counter-attack –

      because we import a lot from europe, they /EU need us/UK more than we need them


      the EU is a financial house of cards ready to collapse

      – first of all, NOT making “all the stuff” you need is intrinsically a weak position – and its nothing to do with technical economic voodoo – its more about SOCIAL UNREST; the UK is not an autarchy, the manufacturing is not coming back, the miraculous free market will not save it; if you cannot import what you need, for any reason, or the pound plummets and it becomes too expensive, then the “bread and circuses” model of social control is over … watch out

      – secondly, you can make that argument about almost any country in the world (except norway and swissland); for example I have heard that deutschebank has a ridiculous derivatives book that could bankrupt the entire universe, if it was “marked to market” … I have been hearing that for about 10 years; and if the EU suffered a financial crash, the contagion would take out london as well, maybe the entire system

      “they need us more than we need them” – is just bullshit, no matter what sophistry you play it with – its like mexico saying

      the USA would be fucked if we ever left NAFTA

    212. galamcennalath says:

      kapelmeister says:

      Ruth Davidson… still supports Brexit but says it should not be at the expense of the union.

      She’s awa wi the fairies … but she’s not alone.

      All but the softest Brexit is incompatible with the continuation of their Union. That has always been the case. Yet Tory politicians just refuse to accept that reality. Of course, their members and voters in England DO appear to understand that they can’t have both.

      The disconnect is not just between pro and anti Indy in Scotland, it’s between official UK Tory party dogma and the pragmatism of their English voters.

      In England most folks realise that Brexit means they can keep both unions, or dissolve both.

      In Scotland we can keep the EU and dissolve the UK union. Scots BritNats fantasise about the reverse. That’s out of kilter with everyone else.

    213. kapelmeister says:

      The Tory on the radio might have given the unionists an idea for a campaign name in indyref2.

      How about Beggar Together?

    214. Giving Goose says:

      Nana – wherever you are.
      Come back.
      I need your links.

    215. Terry callachan says:

      To Joe ..your post 9.47am

      I agree with your addendum the rest of what you say i believe to be incorrect.

      I have heard this said before that only two countries benefit from the euro but it’s not true.
      Some of the countries in the EU are very small ,tying their currencies together is very beneficial
      by tying their currencies together I mean using one currency..the euro

      Often you hear people say the euro is risky but it’s not ,it’s value now is about a quarter higher than it was when introduced maybe even more than a quarter and that’s against currencies such as the British pound.

      The EU is not playing ball with the USA it refuses to allow USA to dictate to the EU who it is allowed to trade with and who it should go to war with , likewise Russia and China are refusing USA diktat
      The EU have said they will buy gas from Russia nordstream even though USA sanctioned it and the EU have openly said who do the USA think they are , dictating who is allowed to buy whatever from whoever across the world, rightly so I say.

      The EU and Russia and China are no longer prepared to trade all their oil purchases in US dollars
      China has already started to trade oil in its own currency
      Russia is selling products to Iran even though USA say Russia are not allowed to do so but Russia have said also who do the USA think they are , telling us who we can and who we cannot trade with.

      UK as we all seen straight after the brexit result Farage in the lift of trump tower , is doing as instructed by USA , it is leaving the EU and it is preparing to support USA if it attacks Iran.
      I suspect behind the scenes UK is also applying sanctions to countries around the world as instructed by USA.
      Of course USA call them tariffs instead of sanctions now but as we are well aware they both lead to war what else could happen ? the USA think they can decide who trades with who across the world and is prepared to go to war with you if you don’t obey , I say go to war but that’s only if they know they will win, they won’t go to war with Russia or China ,they’re too big and also have many allies in fact it’s likely Russia combined with China are the biggest force .

      Unemployment rates in Southern Europe are the lowest they have been in the last 7 or 8 years
      you can compare with UK unemployment rates with difficulty because of the different ways individual countries calculate unemployment and because some countries have better pension provision and may have more of their population who own property or have savings
      The UK economic inactivity figures say 20% of the population are economically inactive
      so all in all painting a picture such as you do that somehow the EU is failing is nonsense.
      Of course the UK govt will say the EU is failing
      But that’s because they want to persuade you to support brexit, it’s that simple.

      Brexit will be disastrous and that’s definitely not fake news.
      Disastrous does not mean nobody will trade with UK but it does mean a right wing UK govt that will roll back all the EU legislation that provides better working conditions than we would otherwise have such as ,

      EU laws on workplace equality
      EU law on gender equality in the workplace
      EU laws on working time
      EU law on employment contracts
      EU laws on fixed-term, part-time and posted workers
      EU laws on employee rights during transfers of undertakings
      EU laws on informing and consulting workers
      EU laws on maternity rights and parental leave
      EU data protection laws

      Make no mistake about it brexit will be a disaster for the masses of ordinary working people .

      Cancelling brexit or cancelling a Scottish independence referendum is not going to happen

      Westminster might try and cancel brexit but that will lead to a general election
      The brexit party will win a general election
      So brexit could be delayed but not cancelled

      Westminster are already trying to stop a Scottish independence referendum
      with the help of some Scottish people I might add
      But it’s going to happen no matter what Westminster say
      The Scottish government have made that clear

      Sorry to disagree with so much of what you said but I see it differently to you

      I do agree with you about how having your own currency allows you to endlessly build up debt and write off debt within your own economy as long as you take care not to overheat the economy and control inflation properly at the right time etc
      MMT in other words

    216. Breeks says:

      Giving Goose says:
      19 June, 2019 at 11:29 am
      Nana – wherever you are.
      Come back.
      I need your links…

      Hmmm…. Joining the dots and maybe getting 5… But if Nana and Rev Stu can’t work it out, I seem to recall Scottish Renewables offering to set up a YES website for somebody… Be nice to see a new YES website with lots of cracking good links of interest opening up rather than closing down… if you catch my drift…

      What ya’ll think? Nana? ScottishRenewables?

    217. Terry callachan says:

      Wingsoverscotland is the only website where you get 24 hour discussion about expertly compiled facts.
      Forget anything else it won’t come close….ever

      The expertise wingsoverscotland has is second to none

      There are other sites of course that are good but this one in number one

      Stick to the rules or suffer the consequences
      Nana didn’t stick to the rules and was reminded what they are

      C’est la vie

    218. Robert Peffers says:

      @Joe says:19 June, 2019 at 9:47 am:

      ” … My whole point on Brexit and economics is to be based on what the economic numbers are saying with regards to both the EU, its main constituent states and the UK.”

      Ah! Joe, You totally miss the point. I went to those lengths to show that when it comes to those, “economic numbers”, you speak about then they can not only be presented, or misrepresented, to suit the presenter’s narrative.

      First I chose the usual presentation of, “GDP”, and how it is normally, and deliberately, misrepresented. The usual little Westminster Establishment scam is first to ignore the difference between GDP and per capita GDP but then continues to not compare like with like.

      Here is one of their favourites:- ” … Goodness me, jock, the city of London GDP is way higher than that of Scotland’s”, and they show the figures to prove it.

      Thing is the City of London is a tiny geographic area of skyscraper office blocks, (a tiny part of Greater London), with a number of people all on top of each other in those sky scrapers, dealing in vast sums of cash and Scotland is an entire kingdom/country with the GDP being considered being a totally different entity.

      In making comparison you must compare like with like, city, town, rural and municipal. Now consider this- I described how Westminster uses the invention of oil & gas revenue all belonging to the UK by being from, “Extra-regio Territory”, when in fact up to 98% of it comes out of Scottish Waters. I didn’t mention, though, they had also stolen 600 Sq Miles of Scottish Waters but even so Scotland still has the longest shore line in Europe and that means her 12 mile limit and her 200 mile Continental shelf is the largest in Europe and, besides the oil & gas Scotland has Europe’s biggest fishing grounds.

      The City of London, excluding Canary Warf, has no 200 mile limit and no continental shelf. All of which is conveniently missing when it comes to those Economic Figures you use for your assessments.

      Wait though, I’m not finished yet – Westminster, (the ONS), then blithely goes on to tell us that they allocate 8.4% of their figures as being the Scottish earned part of the oil & gas revenue figures on a population basis.

      Hang on! Is not the true figure a geographic figure of 98% Scottish and 2% for the three country Kingdom of England?

      Oh! Wait up again – as none of the oil & gas money actually comes to Scotland isn’t it true that the 8.4% figure is only used by Westminster to compile other guesstimate figures they use just to produce other statistics and various papers including the annual GERS figures?

      Now do you get the points I’m making? What is being presented is a total sham if for no other reason the figures are mostly guesstimates by the ONS.

      Come on, Joe, wake up, have you ever considered how London is funded? In the First place there is no block grants for either England or for London but, for example, when they decided to renovate and upgrade every single London rail and bus terminal – who paid for it?

      Who also paid for the extra infrastructure of road and rail to service the Chunnel? Who pays for the London Cross-Rail system? What of Heathrow? The figures so often quoted by Westminster are always misleading and crooked. Never what they seem.

      I’ll tell you something else very few of the many elected to office people I’ve personally spoken with could explain what the Barnett Formula is and how it works. Yet they sit in parliament voting on decisions vital to the economies of the United Kingdom.

      Believe me I’ve heard some strange and wonderful explanations of what is basically, in reality, a fairly simple process.

      I’ve explained it here on Wings before so won’t do so again. Yet we get the unionists still claiming that Englanders subsidise Scots. Wrong! If for no other reason than that the, “English Tax Payer’s money”, they speak about is actually United Kingdom Taxpayer’s money and we are all subject to the same tax laws and as pointed out Scotland’s per capita GDP is normally higher than England’s per capita GDP.

    219. call me dave says:


      ‘Kezia break’ on the shortbread car radio there waxing lyrical about her new job at the John Smith home for ex-Labour politicians

      Mannie in the cafe earlier looking at my ‘The National’ sees the Tory PM line up and suggests that Rory the Tory musr be a close relation to ‘Plug’ from the Beano… Coo! 🙂

      I had a look see…a bit unkind!

    220. Al-Stuart says:

      Pergutory is listening to David Mundell droning on at Scottish Questions in Westminster.

      Mundell sounds like a burst set of moth-eaten incontinent bagpipes…

      “Errr, ummm, eeerrr I, errr, aaaammm thinking, err, ummm off makkkinng aaa lie sound like err, ummmm like errr, splutter, the truth, aaaah. Ummm.”

      It is a sign of a liar when the narrater stalls with so many pauses.

      With any luck, Prime Minister BoJo the Jock-Eliminator will consign this over-promoted waste of space that has embarrassed Scotland for so many years to the back benches and today will be the last time he has waffled on as Secretary of State for Scotland.

    221. geeo says:


      I like your thinking.

      Scottish parliament was reconvened (un-prorogued) in 1999 so if there is a race, we have already won it.

      Interesting question though, could the Scottish government conduct our own ‘power grab’ if Holyrood is the only operating parliament for Scotland ?

      Say by holding a vote to dissolve the Treaty of Union, and sending it to betty for Royal Assent, “in the best interests of Sovereign Scots”, such as is her (Betty) reponsibility, her only responsibility, to Scots.

      Could a legal argument be made for instant Assent to such a motion, foregoing the period of reflection for the Uk gov to challenge a Bill’s legitimacy, due to WM being prorogued ?

      Something along the lines of “in the absence of a Uk parliament, all Scottish matters shall fall under the legal auspices of Scots Law at Holyrood”.

      Then name an indyref date, since there is nobody at WM to challenge it.

      The above is part wishful thinking, probably, but out there somewhere, there should be a legal explanation of the thrust of it you would think ?

      For example, if WM is Prorogued, does the Treaty of Union even survive such an event ?

      With Scotland already having a reconvened parliament (the one prorogued from 1707) does it become the new default parliament of Scotland if the Treaty of Union does not survive WM uk parliament being prorogued ?

      Any thoughts on this, using your constitutional knowledge, Robert Peffers ?

    222. Effijy says:

      Comment earlier about Rory the Tory looking like Plug from the Beano. I too had spotted that and everyone agreed.

      We are being run by the Beano characters from the Tory Party.

      Lord Snooty- Rees-Mogg.

      Boris the Menace has blond hair now.

      Rodger the Doger Hunt.

      Javid Whizz.

      Little Plum Gove.

      When you stopped having a use for the Beano you just didn’t buy it any more but unfortunately for Scotland these Westminster Comics don’t give us an opportunity put them in the bin where they belong.

    223. Ottomanboi says:

      quelle surprise!
      What with this phobia nonsense, knife crime, hard drug merchants, NHS in crisis, below standard education and totally inept politicians BritState is in a ‘bit of a pickle’…and the locomotive ‘Independence’ is still awaiting roll out.
      Procrastination is a very British vice…tomorrow, soon, sometime, never….

    224. Dr Jim says:

      As Ian Blackford lets rip at PMQs naming Boris Johnson a racist (without using his name) Theresa May replies by saying *any Tory prime Minister will be better for Scotland than the Scottish *Nationalist* party) a term even she does not normally use

      They’re shitting themselves down there as their own nasty racist behaviour has exposed them clearly for what they are

    225. Robert Peffers says:

      Ouch! Ian Blackford just got a great show of outrage from the unionist MPs at PM’s Questions by accusing the future Tory leader and future PM of being racist. (he didn’t name him but left no doubt who he meant), The Speaker gave him a warning and there was great noise and upset but Ian did not withdraw his question or apologise.

    226. kapelmeister says:

      Rory Stewart and Michael Gove teaming up to be the Laurel and Hardy of politics.

      Their first joint production will need a name. Given his love of boys own adventure stories Rory might like Sons of the Desert.

      However, Chumps at Oxford would be more appropriate. Or better still Saps at Sea.

    227. geeo says:

      Bercow tries to get Ian Blackford to withdraw the racist accusation.

      Ian Blackford responds by explaining exactly why he IS a racist.

      No further comment from Bercow.

      Love it!

    228. A. Bruce says:

      What happened with Nana? One of the best things on here with important links.

    229. Baldeagle58 says:

      Robert Peffers says:

      19 June, 2019 at 12:32 pm

      Ouch! Ian Blackford just got a great show of outrage from the unionist MPs at PM’s Questions by accusing the future Tory leader and future PM of being racist. (he didn’t name him but left no doubt who he meant), The Speaker gave him a warning and there was great noise and upset but Ian did not withdraw his question or apologise

      Has anyone got a link to this part of PMQs? Really want to see Ian Blackford explain why Bo-Jo is a racist to Bercow.

    230. Al-Stuart says:


      Ian Blackford MP just gave a stoater of a speech at PMQ today.

      He spit roasted BoJo-The-Jock-Exterminator.

      Called, or rather quoted the buffoon for exatly what he is.

      You could see the twin-set-and-pearls polite Mrs May squirm and look at Ian Blackford as some sort of rude pleb. But in her eyes I imagined she knew he spoke the truth and she had no answer for him, other than the barb “Scottish Nationalists” as if we give a rats arse.

      Hopefully, someone will upload Ian Blackfords performance onto Youtube. It was a brammer of a question.

      I can see the day when the English Tories will just want Scotland and the huge numer of Jock MPs to fluck off and stop upsetting their Etonian Gentleman’s Club.

      G.I.R.F.U.Y Westminster,

    231. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Al-Stuart @ 12.09pm

      Just one thing wrong with your hope that Prime Minister-(un)elect Bo-Jo might fire Fluffy.

      He might appoint someone competent in his place. Just as well Fluffy’s survival in office since 2017 has clearly demonstrated, our Imperial Masters rate him better than the alternatives from Scottish seats: “Groper” Thomson, “the Linesman”, “the Bimbo” or even my own MP, Bill “less use than a chocolate teapot” Grant.

      Of course, Bo-Jo could really demonstrate his utter contempt for us Scots by promoting a Scots-born MP representing an English seat.

      What a gift that would be to the SNP and the cause of Independence.

    232. geeo says:


      “I can see the day when the English Tories will just want Scotland and the huge numer of Jock MPs to fluck off and stop upsetting their Etonian Gentleman’s Club”

      That day is already here.

      This very topic is, in essence, all about such a view.

    233. Joe says:

      @Terry Callachan

      Hi Terry. Im working just now but ill try to go over some of your points:

      ‘I have heard this said before that only two countries benefit from the euro but it’s not true.
      Some of the countries in the EU are very small ,tying their currencies together is very beneficial
      by tying their currencies together I mean using one currency..the euro’

      I refer to this as a start:

      The benefit of a nations (or trading block) currency being high or low depends on whether they are a net importer or exporter. For which the central bank can increase/decrease the money supply and/or raise interest rates. It can also increase or decrease the value in the market by using foreign currency reserves to manipulate price. In a ‘free floating exchange rate’ thats exactly what happens. So its not much of a gauge really. Too high a value of the currency can be just as harmful as too low.

      ‘The EU is not playing ball with the USA it refuses to allow USA to dictate to the EU who it is allowed to trade with and who it should go to war with , likewise Russia and China are refusing USA diktat
      The EU have said they will buy gas from Russia nordstream even though USA sanctioned it and the EU have openly said who do the USA think they are , dictating who is allowed to buy whatever from whoever across the world, rightly so I say.’

      Agreed. People need to understand that the U.S dollar is to the privately owned Federal Reserve what cocaine was to Pablo Escobar. Its a banking cartel.

      ‘Unemployment rates in Southern Europe are the lowest they have been in the last 7 or 8 years
      you can compare with UK unemployment rates with difficulty because of the different ways individual countries calculate unemployment and because some countries have better pension provision and may have more of their population who own property or have savings
      The UK economic inactivity figures say 20% of the population are economically inactive
      so all in all painting a picture such as you do that somehow the EU is failing is nonsense.
      Of course the UK govt will say the EU is failing
      But that’s because they want to persuade you to support brexit, it’s that simple.’

      Yes, different ways of compiling data. All for the benefit of political outcomes. The majority of the globe has benefited from a 10 year economic expansion, including Europe. Unemployment, particularly youth unemployment is still a big issue – and theres nothing but less economic growth ahead (possibly recession). Further – for 3 years the U.K economy has been subject to overly negative coverage of its Brexit potentials that has harmed business confidence. If we are to go by employment stats then the U.S is leading the way by a long way. As an aside – plenty of countries outside of the E.U do just fine.

      ‘Brexit will be disastrous and that’s definitely not fake news.
      Disastrous does not mean nobody will trade with UK but it does mean a right wing UK govt that will roll back all the EU legislation that provides better working conditions than we would otherwise have such as ,

      EU laws on workplace equality
      EU law on gender equality in the workplace
      EU laws on working time
      EU law on employment contracts
      EU laws on fixed-term, part-time and posted workers
      EU laws on employee rights during transfers of undertakings
      EU laws on informing and consulting workers
      EU laws on maternity rights and parental leave
      EU data protection laws

      Make no mistake about it brexit will be a disaster for the masses of ordinary working people .’

      Mostly agree here, though I do find EU laws in certain areas stifling. However on the current trajectory the E.U wont exist as it does. The single currency is failing. Countries within the Eurozone are not being well served by this lack of economic mobility – which is completely required particularly in harder times. Less EU will be needed for most members. Not more. My opinion based on 20 years of data. If Brexit did happen it would speed this process of either willing reorganization by the EU or fragmentation.

      Scottish independence. Well im for that. Its never going to be as straight forward as 2014 however. Im not into automatically signing up to full EU membership either. Like it or not Scotland has more to offer the EU than the other way around.

    234. Dr Jim says:

      The National have the full clip of Ian Blackford telling it like it is

    235. ronnie anderson says:

      A Bruce 12.38 Nana’s busy with other Independence related things

    236. Baldeagle58 says:

      Dr Jim says:

      19 June, 2019 at 1:18 pm

      The National have the full clip of Ian Blackford telling it like it is

      Dr. Jim,
      I’ve just gone onto The National website and, although the article is there, the video link isn’t. 🙁

    237. ronnie anderson says:

      Ian Blackford was allowed to say what he did as he had given prior warning to Boris Johnstone lol.

    238. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Well, the lunchtime news on the EBC Home Service had a couple of interesting points:

      Firstly, some Tory woman (missed who) said that it would be suicide for them to go into an election before Brexit. (Which rather chimes with my feeling of what they’re thinking.)

      Secondly, Raab was in full cake-and-eat-it flow, sticking to the weary old line that we have to face Johnny Foreigner down, since any hint we won’t go for a no-deal exit will undermine the negotiations in which they will jolly well climb down in the face of good old British pluck. But if it all goes pear-shaped and we are forced into leaving under WTO rules (y’know, the same rules that other Leavers lust for and claim will be just tickety-boo), it will be all the fault of Johnny Foreigner.

      So he’s got that well covered.

    239. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Joe @ 09:47,

      You are a rotten judge of pretty much everything, it seems. It’s not “hysteria” I feel, it’s deep contempt. Which I reserve for the online manipulators, liars and dissimulators. As they say, if you’re not angry about this kind of deliberate public contamination, you’re not paying attention.

      And frankly you certainly don’t deserve any kind of considered attention.

      Hmmm, a one-time wannabe spook who also presents as a hard leftie railing against global capitalism. Maybe it’s actually Russia you’re coming from.

    240. Graeme says:

      FFW to 12:21:00

    241. Joe says:

      @Robert J Sutherland

      While I notice you are no longer throwing out insults and denunciations like an angry toddler, you are still completely without a grasp of nuance. Not sure if you deliberately do it, or if its a consequence of honest low brain function that you have to distill whatever I say through the filter of your own naive, clueless bias til its not even a position ive taken before making an attempt at ‘wittily’ showing other readers how clearly ‘you got me’ and unveiled my shadowy hidden agenda of disruption evidenced by my bringing an unlicensed view to your precious little echo chamber. Unfortunately I can’t even credit you with original thinking on that because its the current means of political discourse with the left. Watch how the transgender lobby argues against critics for a case-in-point.

      At least your making some improvement though. Well done. Thanks

    242. Cactus says:

      Afternoon Ghillie x

      Ahm always here, ah’ve just been movin’ around in the shadows

      “Hello, Hello, Follow me, Okay” 🙂

      Triple PLAY:



    243. Cubby says:


      Spoken like a true Britnat.

      Pity there is not a rule for immediate exclusion of anti English racists. You would have been toast years ago.

      Nana does not deserve your type of comment.

    244. geeo says:


      Pretty sure Callachan was banned when he posted as Terence Callachan, for anti English bigotry.

      Same scumbag, same views.

    245. Cubby says:


      So that is why he changed from Terence to Terry. Pretty obvious it is the same person. If he was banned once for the same offence he really should be banned again.

      Particularly after his crass remarks about Nana.

    246. Joe says:


      Thanks for calling me creative. Im not much of Britnat though

      You said: ‘“they need us more than we need them” – is just bullshit, no matter what sophistry you play it with…’

      I didnt say that. I also deal with numbers not sophistry. I also read before I reply. Thanks

    247. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Look, I know from a blether with his wife, at work, that Terry (Terrence) Callahan is not a Britnat.

      He has one foible – he thinks the English Scots should not be allowed to vote in an indyref.

      That is an OPINION, which I don’t agree with.

      There are many of us who have opined that there should be a residency limit – 5 years seems to be the most popular.

      Now, the fact that I agree with that, having met many ‘English Scots For YES’ at various rallies over the past 3 or 4 years,does it mean that I have suddenly become a “Britnat”?

      Some of you need to grow up and see the bigger picture.

      We need ALL Scots onside, whether born here or who have adopted Scotland as their home, wherever they came from.

    248. Cubby says:

      Look I have a friend that knows Boris Johnston. He says he is really a good guy and likes the Scots. It’s not his fault he has a wee foible called being a racist. I am sure he will make a great PM. So all you people griping about Boris Johnston should grow up and see the bigger picture. We need a talented person like Johnson as our PM.

    249. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      OK, Cubby.

      Stick to your opinion.

      I acquiesce to your superior knowledge.

    250. Cubby says:

      Brian, nothing to do with knowledge – superior or otherwise.

      Callachan posts:

      1. Anti English racist comments. I don’t accept anti Scottish racist comments so why should I accept any racist comments.

      2. He posts inaccurate stats/information after being corrected on it by many people. Information that is quoted to boost his racist views. Information he knows is wrong and he keeps posting it.

      3. He continually posts concern comments about this and that about independence and the SNP and the Scotgov.

      4. He posts comments that are personally offensive.

      5. There was no need for his snidey comment re Nana. Someone who has worked long and hard to assist this site. Unlike Callachan.

      If he is not a Britnat then he should stop posting comments that give that impression and stop posting lies. Less personal abuse would help as well.

      With regards to your comments. No you do not post like Callachan so I do not think your view on 5 year residency makes you a Britnat. I too think the rules on who can vote should be tightened up but 5 years for me is too long.

      To single out ” foreigners ” and deprive them of their democratic vote is not acceptable to me. I’m sorry to say that you are in danger of giving the impression of being an apologist for a clear and unrepentant racist – that’s Callachan not his fellow racist Johnston.

    251. twathater says:

      I hate to say it but some posters on here are definately up for rattling cages , I have been on the site for a few years and in that time posters like BDTT , DMH , IB and lots more have imo posted very fair moderate opinions , but these constant accusations by the same few people are tiresome , we don’t always agree with each other or each others opinion but I would hope that we ALL agree on the destination that we ALL want
      If in your opinion posters are being racist or trolls or britnats or yoonunists the Rev has made it clear that is what the reporting button is for , it is HIS site and he determines who will post or not , as he has said if you don’t like reading a person’s post or opinion scroll on past

      IMO BDTT was graciously pointing out that he knows and has spoken with TC’S wife and that she knows TC has a particular viewpoint regarding the voting franchise which we I presume all have , I personally agree with the minimum 5 years residency , that is my opinion feel free to disagree but that opinion and my opinions on the SG , the GRA , the Loch Lomond development or Nicola Sturgeon does not make me a britnat or decrease my longing for independence

      My opinion is that BDTT is not in danger of becoming an apologist for racist views

    252. Cubby says:


      BDTT has made the same comment about speaking to Callachan’s wife in the past so I was previously aware of this information.

      You only address part of what I have said i.e. 5 year point – but chose to ignore the other points I made about Callachan posts.

      I never understand the logic of someone who says you should scroll on by posts you don’t like but has just posted themselves in a way that says they are doing what they are saying you should not do.

      I cannot stop Callachan or anyone else posting what they want. It’s not my role as you say and it is not my wish. I express my opinion. Just as you did in your post. You are entitled to your opinion as am I. Surely the point is you argue/explain your opinion/POV.

      I have never asked for anyone to be excluded from this site and I won’t be starting now. I believe in free speech. I never said you were a Britnat and I never said BDTT is a Britnat. I have however said Callachan is a racist and will continue to do so based on what he posts. As Blackford said – words matter.

      Racism by people who say they are Independence supporters is not acceptable to me just because they say they support independence.

      If you do not like my posts feel free to say so. Alternatively also feel free to scroll on by and follow your own advice.

      Finally, I never said BDTT is in danger of becoming an apologist for racist views. Read my words – I said apologist for a racist – Callachan. Perhaps you are not too familiar with some of the stuff Callachan has said in the past. Blood and soil racism – not a cosy wee discussion on the length of time of a qualifying residency.

    253. Dan says:

      geeo says:
      19 June, 2019 at 5:17 pm


      Pretty sure Callachan was banned when he posted as Terence Callachan, for anti English bigotry.

      Same scumbag, same views.”

      Cubby says:
      19 June, 2019 at 6:10 pm


      So that is why he changed from Terence to Terry. Pretty obvious it is the same person. If he was banned once for the same offence he really should be banned again.

      Cubby says:
      20 June, 2019 at 5:57 pm

      I have never asked for anyone to be excluded from this site and I won’t be starting now.

      FFS, you might not have asked but you certainly infer he should be banned. Give up with sophistry and just report any inappropriate posts to Stu and let him decide.
      It seems like every other thread has this 3 way geeo / Cubby / Terry tedious ding dong to scroll through.

      Never considered that after a while the constant repetition you engage in might just put folk off reading btl comments…

    254. Cubby says:


      “I have never asked for anyone to be excluded from this site and I won’t be starting now. ”

      sorry won’t be taking your advice – I won’t be starting now.

      Pretty straightforward position I would have thought – what’s the sophistry you complain about?

      So Dan is ok with racism being posted if it is boring him when it is challenged. Are you happy to accept Bojos anti Scottish racism as well? Or is it just anti English racism.

      Perhaps you need to take Twathater’s advice and scroll on by. But on the other hand comment if you want.

      Never thought Dan that racism might put people off reading btl comments.

    255. twathater says:

      Cubby 5.57pm 20th June , Thanks for responding ,I come on here like others to try to gather information to convince people of our need for independence , I also enjoy the camaraderie and the jokes but it seems over the past few months that any dissent or deviation from the MESSAGE or criticism of the SG or Nicola Sturgeon leads to an automatic labeling of insurgent , 77 brigade , troll or yoonunionist , your views on TC and others obviously is your right to hold ,I don’t necessarily agree with them , the same as I don’t necessarily agree with their opinions

      Anyway you will do what you want so enjoy

    256. Cubby says:

      Twathater@21/6 1.35am

      “Leads to an automatic labelling of insurgent 77 brigade troll….”

      Sorry but that is not me. I do not do that. I think you are falling for the line that is being put out there by people who want to restrict free speech and comment.

      I will leave you with the headline on the front page of the National – ” If you live here you vote here”

      Sub heading – Change to franchise would make Scotland one of the most INCLUSIVE countries in the world.

      Inclusive – I repeat inclusive – not banning “foreigners” from voting as Callachan advocates. We do not need Bojo type racism in an independent Scotland.

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