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Wings Over Scotland

Walls come tumbling down

Posted on January 23, 2014 by

“Better Together” must be nearly out of green bottles by now. 2014 has seen a bonfire of the scare stories. First to go was the terror of debt, which also all but guaranteed that there WILL be a Sterling currency union after independence (because the last thing the UK government needs is to have whatever amount Scotland takes as a share of UK liabilities being denoted in a fluctuating foreign currency).


Then the warnings about EU membership crumbled from several directions at once, culminating in today’s rather low-key story in which respected expert (and Unionist) Sir David Edward dismissed the idea of Scotland being thrown out of Europe as being nonsensical and impractical, having made similar comments last week.

The latest pillar of the No campaign’s case to collapse in the blink of an eye is the much-pushed line that independence means forcing Scots to choose between being Scottish and British. But who says so?

As it happens, the Home Office says so:

“The Home Office also confirmed that Scottish citizens would be entitled to joint citizenship in the ‘continuing United Kingdom’ after independence, allowing them to carry British passports.”

As simply as that, with little fuss or ceremony, the Union’s champion was left holding the stinky baby in an unfortunate game of Musical Nappy Change:

“Alistair Darling, the former Labour Chancellor fronting the Better Together campaign against independence, said: ‘There are three powerful reasons for being part of the UK.

‘One is economic: the opportunities and security that comes from being part of a larger country.

‘The second is we’ve got influence in the European Union – it’s the large countries that call the shots, not the small countries.

‘And thirdly of course there’s something greater in this in some ways – I’m Scottish and I’m British. I’m proud to be both and I don’t see why anyone should make me choose between one and the other.'”

The Home Office statement is just the latest in a rapid-fire list of concessions in which the UK government has grudgingly admitted that the SNP’s White Paper was an accurate assessment of the practical reality. The paper had made plain that for its part the Scottish Government would allow dual citizenship, but the UK government had contested the issue until today:

“Home Secretary Theresa May has strongly indicated that Scots could lose their British passports and be denied dual nationality following a vote for independence in next year’s referendum.”

We’re not quite sure what’s prompted this sudden outbreak of honesty. Perhaps now that we’re in the year of the referendum it’s become a lot more real, and all sorts of pressure is being exerted on Westminster by all manner of businesses and commercial interests to reassure them that a Yes vote won’t lead to a catastrophe as the UK exacts a petty, spiteful, self-destructive revenge on the Scots – who are those businesses’ customers and part of their livelihoods – for their temerity.

We wonder what’s next. We’re thinking of setting odds and taking bets.

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193 to “Walls come tumbling down”

  1. Rusty Shackleford says:

    So, dual nationality for everyone except those with a Scottish passport? Give it up Theresa, I’m totally serial. Crazy.

  2. Jimbo says:

    Maybe it’s the case that the civil servants (who are the people who really hold the power) like to have a bit of fun by making the likes of Darling, Carmichael & Co look like right numpties?

  3. oldnat says:

    Interesting and scholarly document from the Home Office. Seems to concentrate on “an independent Scotland will need to decide ….”

    Well, that is the point of indy!

  4. Arbroath 1320 says:

    So now we know that there is in fact NO problem on the economic front for an independent Scotland, there is NO problem with Scotland being IN the E.U. and we now know there is NO problem with Scots living in an independent Scotland holding dual nationality surely we have nothing more to come from Better together. What possible lie is left for Better Together to crow about?

  5. Hetty says:

    Oh god how stupid and backward can they get? It is time to move forward, with regards to nationality, just wish they would grow up. My kids have duel nationality re N. Zealand and the UK, they feel privileged to have both and are proud of being belonging to both nationalities. (lucky them if it’s a no eh). That lot down in westminster are living in the dark ages, christ lets hope we can wave that nonsense goodbye on Sept 18th this year. I have a pal in Newcastle who would like to move to Scotland now and apply for a Scottish passport, I had to tell her she has to wait a wee while yet!

    on another subject re Europe, I have a friend who is still uming and arring as she is a bit taken in by the lies on telly, she reckons lots of folk are really worried about the Europe thing and that we will be in, out and shaken all about. Jeez.

  6. Hetty says:

    oops should that have been DUAL! Hopefully we are not at the duel stage, there’s a thought…

  7. Jimbo says:

    I think Stu is right re big businesses putting on pressure for commercial reasons.

    Westminster is going to have to start reassuring their lenders, big businesses and the casino bankers that everything will just keep on going as it is now, with no-one rocking the boat and no unnecessary disruption to the money markets.

    The rUK is going to have to get by on the taxes from money lending interest rates and house prices. We all well know how volatile that is – an economy built on money lending and interest rates – the damage it can do to the country and the poor having to thole the austerity.

    How will rUK survive without their currency being tied to an oil producing economy?

  8. Paul says:

    If I can’t have a British passport can I have an EU one as well as a Scottish one?

  9. Annan Urrahing says:

    According to Mariano Rajoy in last Saturday’s El Pais (print edition only I’m afraid, not the online english language edition) we should be worried. An independent Scotland will be out of the EU, out of the UN, outside every international agreement signed by the UK and will face incalculable poverty (“empobrecimiento de incalculable proporciones”) for everyone who lives in this region (sic).

    Now that wouldn’t normally worry me because he knows squat about it but apparently he has been studying the British government’s campaign.

    The same edition also carried uncritical rehash of Hague tripe.

  10. Wee Jonny says:

    I love Wings. Rev and (mostly) everyone else, you’ve given me lots of ammo for that dooshbag of a customer that ranted his arse off the other day at me for having the audacity to be a Yesser. Canny wait to see him next week. Got mi wee pad full o one liners to rip him a new erse. Ta.

  11. Geoff Huijer says:

    On passports/nationality.

    There was a time in the late 70s/early 8os when I would
    travel with an element of pride at being able to wave my passport at various European passport control guys (on trains too – no border posts, barbed wire etc)only to be waved on; the respect afforded the ‘British’ passport was such. Envious and sometimes angry Americans would protest at having theirs examined.

    Long since then I felt ashamed at having a ‘British’ passport. And, my passport was now scrutinised, I found myself being eyed up and down by passport control officers and frequently referred to as English. I felt like an unwelcome imperial intruder until I explained I was Scottish.

    I let my passport expire in 2012 and do not want to renew it until it can have ‘Scottish Passport’ on the front.

    I have no objection to anyone feeling or considering themselves to be both Scottish and British; personally I don’t. I’m Scottish. I don’t understand really how anyone would not see a disconnect in being both but each to their own.

  12. Ericmac says:

    They could stop current residents of Scotland keeping their British passport, nor Scots in London. They couldn’t deny dual passports to residents of Scotland.

    Further, can you imagine the effect of all the White Paper prophecy coming true in face of repeated denial? A campaign of lies is always trumped by a campaign of truth and transparency.

    The only people that could potentially be denied a British Passport in the future would be children born in an Independent Scotland.

    I think they are preparing for a CommonWealth scenario as a back up plan. For the UK, it would be better for Scotland to be like NZ or Canada, than to be putting up borders, using the groat and declaring a republic.

    The Monarchy is important in the south. It wouldn’t surprise me if there was some intervention.

  13. AnneDon says:

    @Annan Urrahing

    I keep wondering if the Spanish PM has told his fishermen they won’t be allowed to fish in Scottish waters if he gets his way?

    Not likely to get him re-elected, I would’ve thought!

    PS,I still don’t know why it makes everything bold!

  14. Ericmac says:

    @Geoff I am Scottish, but I live on the British Isles and in Europe. 🙂

  15. Ericmac says:

    O/T Anyone else noticed the increasingly repetitive ‘Export is GREAT Britain’ ads that are appearing?

  16. orkers says:


    The British passport is, in all but name, an EU passport.

    It may say ‘British’ on it’s cover, but from all I’ve read, it’s issued under the aegis of the EU.

  17. X_Sticks says:

    I’m looking forward to a Scottish passport.

    A Scottish passport will be respected anywhere you want to go all the world over.

    No more “are you English?” questions! Canny wait!

  18. Ericmac says:


    “…but the UK government had contested the issue until today:…”

    Can you change this to

    but until today the UK government had contested the issue:

  19. CameronB says:

    “The Home Office also confirmed that Scottish citizens would be entitled to joint citizenship in the ‘continuing United Kingdom’ after independence, allowing them to carry British passports.”

    How is this possible. Scotland does not exist!

  20. FlimFlamMan says:

    …all but guaranteed that there WILL be a Sterling currency union after independence (because the last thing the UK government needs is to have whatever amount Scotland takes as a share of UK liabilities being denoted in a fluctuating foreign currency).

    Scotland constitutes less than 10% of UK economic measures; tax, spending, GDP and so on, excluding oil.

    The highest figure I can find for oil revenue for the UK is £27 billion in 2011/2012. Lets triple that to include oil related activity, and assume all of it happens in Scotland. Make the sums easier; round it all the way up to £100 billion.

    UK GDP is around £1.5 trillion — perhaps slightly more, now we have a ‘recovery’. UK government debt currently stands at around £1.45 trillion. Debt to GDP of 97%.

    What of the future? Subtract Scotland’s 10% of GDP, as well as the oil related contribution, for a new rUK GDP of £1.25 trillion.

    If the rUK were to retain all UK debt, with no share at all being taken on by Scotland, rUK debt to GDP would climb from around 97% of GDP to around 116% of GDP.

    After WW2 it was over 250% of GDP.

    The UK government has absolutely no reason to be scared of Scotland not using sterling and/or not contributing to the servicing of current debt.

    They’re scared of loss of international standing, having lost a chunk of ‘their’ people and territory, and they’re terrified of having nowhere to put their nukes.

  21. Chic McGregor says:

    Quoting Paul on WeeGingerDug

    Following a conference in the Basque Country on Wednesday.

    “Prof Graham Avery of Oxford University, honorary director general of the European Commission and considered the leading expert on EU enlargement”

    “Prof Avery believes that the assertions of UK Foreign Secretary William Hague and Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy that an independent Scotland would be excluded from the EU and would have to reapply like an external candidate state are not realistic.”

  22. dave kemp says:

    Given that you may have or want a British passport even after Independence …

    In which case will all the “British” embassy facilities be available still ?

    Saves us bothering eh ?

  23. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

    Question #599 …

    Q: Will Cybernats be allowed British Passports after

    A: No. Cybernats don’t need passports as they never leave their bedrooms.

  24. ronnie anderson says:

    @Hetty,noo you toe the RID line, Duel indeed,but if it come,s tae that git a Wallace sword, beats a Foil any day o the week.

  25. scottish_skier says:

    Posted this on the wrong thread / article. Anyway…

    Scottish-UK government joint pre-referendum negotiations clearly have been going well then.

    Joint statement must be very soon now. All agreements on currency, EU, citizenship etc nicely clarified ahead of the vote.

    Could never be any other way.

  26. john king says:


    Just back from the Tommy Sheridan yes event at Kirkcaldy and Tommy was on fire, very powerful oratory and a respectable audience of about 250 some good comments from the floor apart from one zoomer who blamed the “neo liberal policies of the EU”
    for the state of our country,and he “would be voting no” needless to say he didn’t get a round of applause,

    I tried to get my oar in but the microphone guy never saw me,
    Tommy’s own mother took the last spot and gave a good account of herself, anyone would have thought she had some voice coaching 🙂

  27. Macart says:

    Oh Jeez, it must be sheer carnage in the BT bunker right now. 😀

  28. alexicon says:

    We all know these things, but does the general public?
    I very much doubt they do.
    How can we get these poignant points over because our pro unionists’ press will keep the voters in the dark for sure.
    Anyone noticed the Herald has been a wee bit more biased than usual?

    @Ericmac. Yes and I’ve noticed Tesco has all but got rid of the Scottish brand of meat, opting for British meat instead. A big push on this at the moment.
    I for one wouldn’t buy British meat as all the supplier has to do is have the livestock in the UK for a short time, then it’s classed as British.

  29. scottish_skier says:

    After WW2 it was over 250% of GDP.

    How big was the British Empire then compared to now?

  30. Chic McGregor says:

    “After WW2 it was over 250% of GDP.

    How big was the British Empire then compared to now?”

    How low was GDP?

  31. john king says:

    Geff Huijer @8.41

    Where were ye I thought you were going to the yes thing at St Brycedale church?

  32. TheGreatBaldo says:


    Just watched the live feed from the LfI event tonight in Glasgow.

    If we could get Dennis Canavan to visit every house for say 2 minutes each we’ll win this by an absolute landslide !!

    I don’t give a damn about Salmond vs Cameron….get Canavan vs Darling organised now.

  33. Indy_Scot says:

    I don’t see how I would stop being British after a Yes vote given that I still live in the British Isles.

  34. Chic McGregor says:

    Our passports also have ‘EU citizen’ on them and the sky hasn’t fallen in yet =:o

  35. Chic McGregor says:

    “If we could get Dennis Canavan to visit every house for say 2 minutes each we’ll win this by an absolute landslide !!”

    You could be on to something there. An election wagon. The Canavan Caravan?

    He’s dae’n nae bad fur someane Dewar thocht wisnae guid enuch fur the Sco”ish Parly.

  36. Croompenstein says:

    @alexicon – Don’t underestimate the power of the cabernats the polls of 79 and even 97 there was no cabernats and the MSM could get away with all their pish but they will find it harder this time because the internet is such an important and useful tool in most people’s lives hence the reason why they have turned their attack on the cabernats

  37. ronnie anderson says:

    @weeJonny 8.41.
    If you were ah Scot wie a hot bot

    There,s MPs that,ll rip you a new wan

    Votein no,they,ll tak awe yer dough

    yer Fucked awe the same,you,ll suffer

    the pain,votein YES is your Gain no their,s.

  38. Chris says:

    My granny was born in Ireland in 1913, lived through the various wars, became a citizen of the Irish Free State, then Eire and moved to Scotland after WW2. Although she was as Irish as they come, she always had dual nationality and only ever had a British passport. Knowing this, it was enevitable that the UK Government would have to accept dual nationality as part of the social union of these isles, British or otherwise.

  39. HandandShrimp says:

    I would be happy to hold a Scottish passport, that is all.

  40. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Geoff Huijer, my wife was stopped gibralter border,tae show her passport,( she,s a nevious sort ) I was reachin intae ma pocket talkin tae the poliseman waved though ( nae show )the Scotsman,s passport his tounge,UKOK naw.

  41. Big Jock says:

    I will be delighted when I can hold a passport from a country I belong to and am proud of.My nationality is not mentioned on my current passport.Not ,Anglo,Not Saxon not British ..end of.

  42. ronnie anderson says:

    @CameronB 8.59

  43. Ian Brotherhood says:

    re the passport nonsense:

    Have posited this before, but it’s a good one for the DKs in your life to ponder…

    You’re away for your annual holiday, with the weans. The plane is hijacked by ‘terrorists’ and they demand all passengers’ passports. You have no idea who the hijackers are, what they want, or who they’re looking to take hostage.

    You have two passports in your pocket – one is UK, the other is Scottish.

    Which one do you put in the bag?

  44. alexicon says:


    Your right to say that the internet has changed things, but remember the majority of Scots don’t use the internet to read the news and I’m sure the vast majority don’t read about politics.
    I’ve just posted around 700 YES newspapers through doors on my leave. I was a bit taken aback by the lack of headlines about the damage the unionists’ are going to do to Scotland in the event of a no vote. Saying that it was the end of last year edition.
    I would like to see the YES campaign take a leaf out of the MSM press and have eye catching headlines on stories like this. I believe posting newspapers is the way forward, not leaflets.
    It’s about time YES moved this way instead of the 100% positive message.
    Maybe a 50-50 approach?

  45. Paula Rose says:

    Tonight yet more folk questioning their ‘received wisdom’, get out there folk, the general population want to engage, those walls are made of paper. This is ours to win.

  46. FlimFlamMan says:


    How big was the empire? Larger — since it still existed — but collapsing.

    It has been suggested by economic historians, pointing to the economic boom that took place as the British empire was dismantled in the 50s and 60s, that in its latter stages the empire was a net detriment to the British economy. Even if that is not true, it’s far from clear that the empire was an economic benefit by the 1950s.

    @Chic McGregor

    How low was GDP? Much lower obviously. Do you think lower GDP was an advantage? Much lower GDP means much less economic activity.

    The UK at the time was constrained by the gold exchange standard and bombed cities, but debt at 250% was not a disaster. Why, with no external constraint and no bombed cities, would 116% be scary?

    Note: none of this is said in opposition to Scottish independence; I support independence.

  47. ronnie anderson says:

    @CameronB ,that wiz me practisin being the Invisable Scot in the Invisable Scotland,as posted above.

  48. Davy says:

    Oh bugger, does this mean Alistair Carmichael’s border posts are now at risk ?, I was just about to offer the man a half-dozen spare posts I have at a little bittie over cost price just to help him oot.

    Their does not appear to be to much left for the NO campaign to actually use to compaign against independence ?

    It must be us cybernats fault, “cybernats rule OK” put that in your pipe and smoke it Jim Murphy.

  49. Garry Henderson says:

    I’d love a Scottish passport, I travel extensively with work (in Brazil now) and everyone has a great attitude towards us Scots. Roll on Sept.

  50. Fairliered says:

    I will be applying for a Scottish passport on the first day they are available. As soon as it arrives, I will cut up my UK passport into little pieces and burn it. Only then will I no longer feel part of the state that murdered millions of innocent Iraqis and introduced the bedroom tax whilst supporting unlimited bankers bonuses.

  51. Vronsky says:


    “You have two passports in your pocket – one is UK, the other is Scottish. Which one do you put in the bag?”

    Excellent. For that reason, among others, I travel on an Irish passport.

  52. MochaChoca says:

    Didn’t Tony Blair make sure his kids travelled on Irish passports too?

  53. scottish_skier says:


    My comment was more related to the very different circumstances of Britain after the war. It may have had a much larger debt, but at the same time was in control of an enormous empire where it largely dictated trade. It took raw materials from the empire, turned them into complicated stuff such as trains and ships, then sold it on, often back to its own empire. It made/sold things and had a crap load of collateral.

    I agree the UK debt can be dealt with in a much less harmful (to society) way that it is being dealt with. A recession is a great excuse for pushing a neo-liberal agenda. The austerity drive is ideologically driven first and foremost.

  54. Murray McCallum says:

    I can sense Alistair Darling-Carmichael’s (and therefore the MSM’s) next warning for Scots:

    Decent, hardworking Scots face 100% increase in cost of passports.

    The Home Office has confirmed that Scots who also feel British will now have to apply and pay for TWO passports if Alex Salmond’s vanity project proves successful.

  55. bunter says:

    Nice wee bit at the end of BBC Sco news when wee Sally said with a smile that A.S. was accused of staying at the same hotel as Justin Beiber, Beyoncé etc at a cost of 54K, a nice wee video of JL only and stated A.S. said enough of the frippery. Cant beat a bit of context eh!

  56. twenty14 says:

    anyone up Cowdenbeath way got any updates on voting. The bbc reckon low turnout at around 40% so reckon there must have been a good turn out 🙂

  57. Les Wilson says:

    Does no one but me think Jim Murphy is a dead ringer for the REV JOLLY? Same deadpan look, same monotone voice, and the same depressing look AAGH!
    He should be looking for the place in any new series with the SBC, when the time comes! Certainly not in politics.

  58. scottish_skier says:

    On this subject of passports…

    I travel a fair bit with work. I have a nice blue leather Scottish passport cover on my passport. Definitely smooths the pass through customs much more easily; even if just generating a smile you might not have got otherwise.

  59. MarkWot says:

    @Ian Brotherwood
    “You’re away for your annual holiday, with the weans. The plane is hijacked by ‘terrorists’ and they demand all passengers’ passports. You have no idea who the hijackers are, what they want, or who they’re looking to take hostage.

    You have two passports in your pocket – one is UK, the other is Scottish.

    Which one do you put in the bag?”

    most people, if not all would instinctively give them the Scottish passport without thought, Shared comrade

  60. CameronB says:

    ronnie anderson
    I didn’t see you there, sorry. I was being ironic in my previous post, where as the legal opinion that Scotland was extinguished was of course moronic.

    Subtle difference. 🙂

  61. westie7 says:

    Cowdenbeath 14.5% postal votes from total registered, WTF!

  62. Chris says:

    I had a bad experience with the Israelies taking my British Passport away one time- so you have to leave at the same port rather than deciding to stay in Palestine- after which I decided to get an Irish passport. At first it was a spare but now I use it instead of my British Passport which I will not be renewing! Really looking forward to getting my Scottish Passport in 2016. At that point I’ll write to the home office renouncing my British Citizenship.

  63. twenty14 says:

    Westie7 –

    that will be 14.5% labour then

  64. HandandShrimp says:

    Labour are big on their elderly vote using postal votes and they do tend to vote. On a low turn their vote is invaluable and they are much more likely to vote than younger voters. If it is a low turnout and Labour have their postal vote out I think it will be a hold for Labour. To be honest if they don’t hold one of their own seat mid way through a second term for the Government they will absolutely keech themselves. It has been a low key campaign with no back story that might cause an upset.

  65. msean says:

    Are there no Independence supporters in this programme?

  66. westie7 says:

    I’d like to see someone analyse these postal votes and start raising the profile of them, if possible. You could bet theres something fishy going on with them

  67. HandandShrimp says:


    Take it you are watching QT. The bias is strong with that one. I can’t be bothered with it.

  68. Krackerman says:

    Well there’s only two Scots on the panel 😀

  69. twenty14 says:

    QT Dimbelby ” have we anyone here in favour of a YES vote ” – Are you for real ya numpty

  70. James123 says:

    I commented yesterday that I rarely watch these TV debates as they are usually soul destroying. Tonight I thought I’d give it a go, after 5 minutes it was off, dreadful.

  71. twenty14 says:

    Hope that’s A winger with the statement about opinion polls

  72. Flower of Scotland says:

    Watching Newsnight in Dundee . Think that the BBC have wheeled in the NO voters ! However think one of Wings posters got his bit in about BBC bias . Well done !

  73. kendomacaroonbar says:

    Yeah, let’s bag the indy chat because the English have no interest in listening to discussions that are not centered around them.

  74. Wp says:

    Thought Dundee had some passion, give me the two Greenock girls anytime. It’s like a meeting at the yacht club.

  75. Edward says:

    Question Time has been a complete shambles in debating independence, with Ruth Davidson given too much time to attack and Jim Sillars tending to waffle, don’t get me started on Dugdale!
    End result, there was no proper debate and was veering like a drunk driver towards a bucket of cringe.
    Swinney should have called Dugdale on the spurious so called ‘secret document’ of John Swinney’s

  76. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Jim Sillars’ latest intervention pretty destructive. I don’t know if he knows it or whether his hatred of Alex Salmond completely consumes him. It certainly diminishes him.

  77. Paul says:

    I’ve just turned off from Question time we are getting a bit of a doing. We all know that Swinney isn’t the best orator and Sillars just wants to ramble. The person who raised the point about the tax raising powers knows full well that if that power was used then Westminster would cut the Scottish block grant so there would be no point doing it which is why the former Scottish Governments didn’t use it.The admittance that people don’t like Alex is a nonsense as even Dimbleby said it was he who got the first ever majority in the parliament.I am now fearing that we are going to lose as we are not putting up strong enough debaters. While we are probably in the ascendency on line that isn’t enough as in many ways we are only talking to the already converted.

  78. Ian Brotherhood says:


    Alex Salmond has been released from the Los Angeles Correctional Department after being bailed following charges relating to an alleged drunk-driving incident…oh, hang on, no, it wasn’t him, it was Beiber, but they both stayed at the same place once…Alex Salmond has been accused of corrupting global Youth after recording a video in which he is seen cavorting suggestively in a saltire-patterned mankini…no, hang on, that was Beyonce…and finally, here’s the shitey weather we can expect, caused by Alex Salmond, sorry, from Heather.

  79. twenty14 says:

    Paul – Sorry but one night on QT will not lose the Referendum.

    As one guy said – remember the Polls leading up to the 2011 election. All the polls had us beat, as they do now. I think and agree with what many, many people have said on here – when the time comes and your in the booth there will be only one way to vote and that’s YES

  80. HandandShrimp says:

    Davidson is a Tory and Dugdale is pretty Z list when it comes to debating so it must be dire if Sillers and Swinney can’t get decent points across in Dundee which has a strong nationalist tradition. Jim is a loose cannon though.

  81. Chic McGregor says:

    “Cowdenbeath 14.5% postal votes from total registered, WTF!”

    Deja Vu


  82. Indy_Scot says:

    If Labour can replicate their postal vote “advantage” across the referendum, then we may be in trouble.

  83. twenty14 says:

    If I was to use a postal vote is there anyway I can check on where it has been lodged – hypothetically

  84. msean says:

    What is the system for these postal votes,who takes care of them until the count,who opens them?

  85. Horacesaysyes says:

    I can’t believe that Swinney missed the open goal of pointing out what we are likely to see if there is a no vote. Highly disappointing. 🙁

  86. handclapping says:

    @john king
    I was there. I reckon 300 people; the middle and back, when absolutely full are 150 each and there were people down the sides too. Its 450 capacity. The next one up in Kirkcaldy is the Adam Smith at 475 and then it’ll be one of the grandstands at Starks Park.

    Did you notice that there was nothing from the Yes campaign till the very end when if you had been inspired to vote yes by attending you got a free Yes badge? I think the Yes could make a lot more of Tommy, he’s an inspirational speaker and he is definitely not Alex Salmond! When you think they’ve got speakers like Dennis Canavan, Brian Cox, Patrick Harvie and Tommy, who are all not Alex Salmond, how come we end up with Sillars and Swinney?

  87. Krackerman says:

    Spot the ukipper at the end – fanny 😀

  88. kendomacaroonbar says:

    34.81 % turnout

  89. Edward says:

    So Cowdenbeath has only 34.84% turnout. Roden of the DM tweeting that Labour may break the 50% barrier. So that’s about 18% of total electorate
    Labour expected to ‘gub’ SNP according to ‘Labour sources’ quoted by James Cheyne of STV

  90. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Paul at 11.11

    You must have been watching a different Question Time!
    The Davidson Dugdale contest did neither of them any good and John did fine and impresses thinking people all the time.
    Both the girls spoke continuously in meandering meaningless aspirational tone and made no significant contribution that would have persuaded anybody of anything.
    The incoherent audience lassie made no sense whatsoever and her incomprehensible attack on John Swinney probably helped us.
    Laying aside Sillars’ irrational hatred of the man who stole his crown his contribution was first class and I have little doubt we won that one.

  91. Chic McGregor says:

    “If Labour can replicate their postal vote “advantage” across the referendum, then we may be in trouble.”

    Nevermind ‘sleepwalking’ into independence, there is a danger of ‘Zombiewalking’ into dependence (+ servility, humiliation, etc.)

  92. Chic McGregor says:


    Yep. The comfy upper middle is the biggest vote gaining territory for indy,

  93. Edward says:

    Coming back to what Ruth Davidson said at the top end of tonight’s Question Time claiming that the Aberdeenshire Schools that had mini referendums that resulted in 75% support for status quo had been supplied equally with Yes and Better Together material…Really Ruth, from what Ive learned is that there was a scarcity of YEs material
    You wouldn’t be lying Ruth would you or just bending the facts?

  94. macdoc says:

    Seems like Labour have easily won the Cowdenbeath Bye election at 34% turnout.

    It really does show you how politically thick so many of the Scottish Electorate are. Have they never watched North British-Labour in action at the Scottish Parliament. How could you vote for an Anti-Scottish Party with such a complete bunch of absolute cretins. Sometimes I really wonder whether Scotland deserves independence or not!!

  95. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    twenty14 at 11.17

    The present postal voting system is a recipe for fraud and if you control all of the various separate functions of its operation it is easy,for instance, to find out who voted for whom.
    We remember the Glenrothes puzzle but we should never forget that people turned up to vote in the Glasgow election that put Willie Bain into parliament to find their vote had already been used. M Sarwar’s election saw files on suspected personation sent to the PF. The People’s Party has lots of form in this area.

    I never try to use conjecture of what we will get if we vote NO as we don’t know and my support for independence is entirely positive – as is John Swinney’s

  96. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    A 34% turnout in a Labour stronghold produces a meaningless result in the Referendum context.

  97. Paul says:

    Macdoc I agree but this is what happens with the papers we have. All Labours lies and back stabbing just doesn’t get reported. There is something seriously wrong though when turn outs are this low nobody won tonight if the winner only got 18% of the electorate.

  98. heedtracker says:

    “I’m Scottish and I’m British. I’m proud to be both and I don’t see why anyone should make me choose between one and the other.’”
    Wiki says you were born in London Alistair! What an odd bunch of lads BetterTogther/BBC are.

  99. memaw says:

    Many years ago on honeymoon in Crete, the young barman in our hotel asked where we were from. I said,”Scotland”. He said,”Ah, I know Scotland, it is a little bit of Wales!” We didn’t bother to correct him.

  100. Ananurhing says:

    Would I be correct in thinking that Dugdale was a particularly nasty cyberbrit poster on the old Hootsman site years ago?

  101. twenty14 says:

    Dave McEwan – there must be traceability. a name to a house. a postcode, a flat. therefore if J Bloggs voted labour he could be searched then asked how did you vote.
    A tear off slip that could match vote ref number or something !

  102. Ananurhing says:

    Annan Urrahing 8.40pm.

    F@*#k me! A tribute poster! Why?

    Hey. You. Get off o’ my F’n cloud!

  103. HandandShrimp says:

    It is pretty concerning that only 34% turnout for a Holyrood election in what are both pivotal and exciting times. It seems to me that the electorate becomes ever more disengaged. I think I saw something in the Guardian the other day that only about 12% of the young voters intend to vote in the UK. That is incredibly worrying.

  104. moujick says:

    Folk tweeting the following re Cowdenbeath:- 11k voters surveyed in constituency by SNP. 41% yes to indy, 36% No, 23% don’t know

  105. Barontorc says:

    Do the postal vote numbers form part of the turnout? If it was only 35% turnout and 14.5% were postal votes does that mean 20% bothered to vote at the polling station? And if Labour – true to form – ‘pocheled’ the PVs – then less than 5% who voted at the booth voted Labour if they only got half of the vote. (35%@50% = 17.5%) Meaningless, but extremely pointed if that’s all Labour could muster.

  106. Faltdubh says:


    I’ve had something similar. I was in New York and speaking to a few guys and when they asked what country I was from and replied ‘Scotland’. They began to ask me about the old country, Gaelic, kilts, wars with the English and preceding to ply me with whisk(e)y. They of course intermingled with Ireland 😉

    Do the BBC ask for certain folk from Yes/No and political parties? Or do the parties put forward the candidates themselves. I like Swinney, I don’t think he’s great though in this setting and disappointed he didn’t answer the question near the end regards regret of voting No. I understand his position, he’s a politician and wants to create positivity to us in the Yes camp and swing undecided voters towards Yes, but I feel we have to hammer home the effects of a No as well now.

    O/T, well, I suppose my two para’s were both O/T too, but according to some on Twitter out of 11k of the voters in Fife have
    41% Yes
    35% No
    28% Da ken.

  107. Patrician says:

    2 points here.

    1) I will gladly burn my British passport on Independence day. is see no need for dual citizenship after independence.

    2) it was pointed out to me some time ago that low turnouts suit Labour, they can always get their core vote out. Labours problem is when the percentage of voters rise, their vote doesn’t rise very much.

  108. The Man in the Jar says:

    Re Cowdenbeath and Dunfermline by-elections I wonder indeed I hope that in these areas and others like them that there are Yes supporters keeping a low profile. A silent minority / majority perhaps.

    If there is little chance of anyone but Labour winning then what is the point. If there was a Westminster by-election where I stay I would probably vote SNP more in protest than in hope. My MP (Labour) has a 14,000 majority. If it was for my MSP currently also Labour with a majority of a little over 700 it would be a whole different matter.

    I hope that there are plenty of Yes voters bideing their time till Sept waiting for a chance to make a real and dramatic change. They deserve all the support that they can get.

  109. Chic McGregor says:

    As someone who has stood outside polling booths witnessing Labour cars ferrying in voters from old folk’s homes who didn’t know what day of the squirrel it was on the promise of a cuppa tea and a biscuit…

  110. Niall says:


    “Adjacent to the truth” – to put it in her own words…

  111. Chic McGregor says:

    Watching Dugdale, I’m now convinced Labour have decided what their winning strategy is. It’s the Margrit Curran School of political delivery. Its all about tone, rhythm and attack – content is irrelevant. I do hope they are wrong.

  112. Andrew Morton says:

    Re postal votes, I put this to someone I know in the Labour Party. He said there’s no jiggery pokery, they simply make sure that every Labour voter who can’t get to the polls gets a postal vote and they also make sure they use it.

  113. Molly says:

    Actually Chic, was beginning to wonder if Ruth Davidson is sponsored per word! An opportunist , that’s a girl with her eyes on the big prize-for Ruth.

    Instead of congratulating themselves, the Labour Party should be asking themselves, where’s the rest of the electorate? More didn’t turn out than did, that’s a mighty lot of people who even the Labour Party whistle isn’t getting through to.

  114. call me dave says:

    Not a surprise in Cowdenbeath.

    Labour beat the SNP, recording a majority of 5,488 votes, with the Conservatives polling third and UKIP pushing the Lib Dems into fifth place.

  115. FlimFlamMan says:


    Sorry, somehow I managed to miss your reply.

    My comment was more related to the very different circumstances of Britain after the war. It may have had a much larger debt, but at the same time was in control of an enormous empire where it largely dictated trade. It took raw materials from the empire, turned them into complicated stuff such as trains and ships, then sold it on, often back to its own empire. It made/sold things and had a crap load of collateral.

    That’s certainly the way the empire had operated, but by the 1950s it was disintegrating. India and Pakistan — the largest victim[s] of the empire’s extractive nature — gained independence in 1947, and UK government debt didn’t peak until 1952. Trade continued of course, but Britain really didn’t still have control, and indeed economic historians can’t agree on whether or not the empire was a net positive for Britain at that time.

    I agree the UK debt can be dealt with in a much less harmful (to society) way that it is being dealt with. A recession is a great excuse for pushing a neo-liberal agenda. The austerity drive is ideologically driven first and foremost.

    It goes further than that though; the idea that debt needs to be dealt with is itself part of the neoliberal agenda. For sovereign nations debt, or rather deficits, is/are simply the result of whatever economic activity the non-government sector engages in: net saving, current account balances and so on. It’s an accounting entry. That those deficits are still matched by debt has been unnecessary since the collapse of Bretton Woods.

    It’s clear the various shades of Tory party don’t believe their own story, since they massively increased deficits and debt to bail out the banks. As long as those of us who are opposed to neoliberalism’s predatory ideology continue to buy in to one of its main tenets, and therefore its consequences, we’ll get nowhere fast.

    Anyway, it’s late and those turnout numbers are depressing. Remind me of ‘the theory of the 55%’ again, just to cheer me up.

  116. call me dave says:

    Here’s the run-down on votes:
    Alex Rowley – Scottish Labour – 11,192
    Natalie McGarry – Scottish National Party – 5,704
    Dave Dempsey – Scottish Conservatives – 1,893
    Denise Baykal – UK Independence Party – 610
    Jade Holden – Scottish Liberal Democrats – 425
    Stuart Graham – The Victims Final Right Party – 187
    James Trolland – Scottish Democratic Alliance – 51

    11%+ swing to labour. #:(

  117. Patrick Roden says:

    Blooming Nora!

    So there’s a 14.5% postal vote, but only a 34% turnout?

    I don’t think postal voting is a recipe for fraud, as this suggests that it’s something that may happen in the future… ‘Postal Voting Fraud’ has already happened several times, in England!

    Would anyone like to have a stab at guessing what party was found guilty of this ‘Postal Voting Fraud’?

    Yup, The Labour Party!

  118. Patrick Roden says:

    The Libs behind Ukip!

    That’s gotta hurt. 🙂

  119. cjmasta says:

    If there`s a NO vote I will be using my passport to get out of this country. Possibly for good. Who wants to live in a country where folk have such a low opinion of themselves? So much so that they feel they need decisions made for them in a far off parliament where you are an afterthought in decision making.
    If the polls are correct this week about folk voting NO if it would cost them the price of a sandwich per week then I just can`t get my head round that even knowing that it`s not true.

  120. call me dave says:

    I agree that postal voting is not , in Scotland, a big problem. But there are rules that the party, if collecting them, must pass them to the officials running the election within 2 days of receiving them. see link 1.

    I personally do have a problem that any party can collect them but it is at present within the rules. I think they should go directly to the ‘authority running the election’

    The real fraud is when the postal votes get filled in by another person acting for the voter. Language difficulties, ethnic culture, lack of knowledge of correct procedures can direct votes towards a particular candidate by a party worker.

    Let us not get too downhearted at the result today a labour candidate can drop their pants big time in Fife and still win. The swing to Labour is disappointing though.

    Cowdenbeath is where I was born Anyhoo!

  121. wee162 says:

    @msean 11:28
    What is the system for these postal votes,who takes care of them until the count,who opens them?

    They’re delivered to a secure location (council HQ usually) and verified there (signature needs to match the signature which the postal vote was requested with). The verification procedure is done by election staff and is open to representatives from the political parties when it’s being done. You can’t actually see who has voted for who in my experience with this as the votes are separated from the verification as soon as it has been verified then put aside for counting later. All of it is well secured (and there is usually a polis presence to make sure stuff is locked away).

    The reason why you can’t find out who voted for who is to stop fraud (eg if someone initialled or signed their ballot paper that would be a spoiled vote). The theory is that if someone was deciding to pay for votes they would have no way of finding out whether someone had actually voted for them.

    You obviously need to have the same number of verifications as postal votes.

    I don’t think the system is completely incorruptible but you would need to have a fairly decent sized conspiracy amongst groups who had no political reason to join it to defraud the postal vote system (police, election staff who are usually a pretty random selection of council employees, whoever holds the keys to the locked room where the votes are kept (usually the returning officer or their depute)) which seems implausible. If there was a massive difference in the results from postal votes compared to the rest of the electorate then it would ring alarm bells and almost certainly immediately result in the police being called in to start investigating it.

    If there’s an issue about postal voting I’d be pretty confident it will be on an individual level (ie people who don’t live at an address registering, or party members “helping” folk fill in their postal votes).

    Hope this helps. My opinion would be that there is stuff regarding misleading media which is a concern, but the actual voting itself should not represent something people should be worrying about too much.

  122. Dcanmore says:

    What we have seen at Cowdenbeath, like Dunfermline, is Labour holding on in one of their seats and nothing more. This wasn’t a victory for Labour, it was relief. Simply Labour got their core vote into the polling booths and the SNP didn’t manage to counter that. What will worry Labour is the lack of a dynamic wider-Labour vote, with only a 34% turnout the electorate didn’t engage with the by-election. It was a battle of the core vote and Labour won it. The wider electorate was not interested and Labour are increasingly relying on the postal votes to carry them over the line. What will worry the SNP is the lack of enthusiasm the public had engaging with their message and tone.

    Labour are still in trouble in Scotland as a 11% per cent swing in such a low turnout, where 14% of votes were postal, is meaningless. Labour couldn’t engage with the public either. For the SNP it was a no-show, SNP supporters either knew Labour would retain the seat as a formality (especially due to the circumstances of the by-election) or they are not bothered until the big day in September. I don’t think the low turn out is a reflection of what’s coming in September, the Euro-elections will probably be another low turnout but people will have it in their minds that the referendum is much more important and the hype in the MSM will get bigger as a result. The up-and-coming Euro-elections will be more of an indication of what is happening in England and the Scots will take note.

    If Labour hierarchy think the Cowdenbeath and Dunfermline results are an indicator for the referendum then they are fooling themselves. A sizeable percentage of the Labour vote will say YES to independence, but these voters will also want a Labour government in Holyrood, so why would they switch to the SNP? They don’t have to. The SNP need to up their game during elections. They have to be dynamic, energetic and positive while presenting the facts to the electorate. They must be tireless and punch above their weight and not give in to complacency. Also the SNP need feedback, if you think they are going wrong somewhere then they need to be told.

  123. ronnie anderson says:

    @Duncanmore,John Swinney was given a open goal by D Dimbiby on QT when asked why there,s a 3 to 1 againt Indy.
    R Davidson rattled on about Scotscen, did JS debunk that as outdated,naw, 3to1 did he mention MSM Bias ,Naw,UWS study was mentioned along with three other question,s DD, moved on to other question,did JS raise a whisper,naw. If that wiz Sarwar he would be rite in there.

    Newsnight Scotland (by election) Curtice. Taylor. Brewer.

    were,nt giveing Sarwar a hard time, they were telling him,

    that the three,other party,s should join up,with the same

    policies, to beat the SNP/YES camp.

    The SNP better be more aware of the grassroot,s supporter,s

    comments on MSM BIAS, they cant fail to notice it. They

    have to bring this issue to public attention via

    FMQs & continue to do that every week.

  124. john king says:

    Handclapping says
    “I was there.”

    Did you not see the wings tee shirt I had on?

  125. john king says:

    it read
    “A hundred of us remain alive”.

  126. Bubbles says:

    There was exactly 150 people in the QT audience. I was one. Before you are allowed on you are asked what party you would vote for if there was to be a General Election next week and what is your principal cause for voting. Fearing being excluded I answered Conservative and immigration. I thought John Swinney, like Hyslop earlier in the week, was crap. There’s just no fight in them. The only person who genuinely seemed to resonate with the audience was Jim Sillars, like him or loathe him.

    My question wasn’t chosen. For the record, here it is –
    Yes Scotland are being prevented from hosting stalls at local events throughout Scotland because of an insistence by local council authorities that both sides of the debate be represented. Is the refusal by UKOK to provide such balance due to a lack of boots on the ground or is it an attempt to prevent the positive case for independence being heard?

    The most interesting part of the whole thing happened before the cameras went live. We had a trial run with a couple of questions and using members of the audience in the hot seats. Topics were chosen by the stage manager. Question one was on whether cannabis should be legalized. The general consensus was yes. The second question concerned government spying on emails, good thing / bad thing. General consensus was it’s a bad thing. This warmed everyone up and got them used to how the whole process would work when the cameras went live.

    However, this also allowed a fair degree of audience profiling. I raised my hand many times in both the trial and the real deal. I was allowed my say a couple of times in the trial and not once in the real deal. Am I paranoid?

  127. ronnie anderson says:

    @bubble,s Yup ye ur,but sos me,n ah wizna there.Just sent
    E mail,s to Alex Neil on Swinney,s performance,e mail to Yes Scotland re engage anybody comeing to your home, ie Gasman /Plumber, how many chance,s ( missed ) to attack the MSM Bias,giver the open invitation by dimbilby on the 3 to 1 for the No campain.

  128. Albalha says:

    Re Cowdenbeath.

    The Labour vote is pretty much the same number they got in 2011, however the SNP’s was about 50% less than 2011.

    The Tory vote increased. So SNP voters just didn’t bother to vote. Turnout in 2011 was 46.9.

    I’d like to know what the 5000 or so 2011 SNP voters were doing all day.

    It’s inaccurate to say it’s a Labour swing. The Labour vote increased by 700 or so but the SNP vote reduced in line with the number that turned up compared to 2011.

  129. KenC says:

    Regarding Cowdenbeath- I’m wondering if more Labour-supporting folk would vote for independence if there is the chance that Labour would form the first post-independence government? Tribal I know- but we’ve seen plenty of form in that regard.

    If so, then having Labour win by-elections and increase majority would actually not be a bad thing in the grand scheme of things. Though the idea of Johann being PM of an iScotland is not something I want to spend too long thinking about!

  130. Ken500 says:

    Leave the SNP alone, especially non members, who would rather sup with the Devil.

    Alex & Co and the members have done more for Independence than many others, have crowd funded it, and made the Referendum happen. Some people should get off the fence and stop sniping at the sidelines. Like little ‘Red’ hens. What state Scotland would be in without Alex & Co and the SNP, holding the tide back against Westminster tryranny? If the SNP were not in control in Holyrood, all the family silver would be going South to the UK Treasury, in secret. At least now Scotland knows about it and can take steps to stop it, by voting YES. D. Akexander/Osbourne has devastated the Oil industry by inceasing Tax 11% (£2) to 60-80% in 2010. Workers are being killed by UK health & safety Laws not being enforced by UK government.

    Thev Labour/Unionists arguing, again, about a hotel bill for a trip which will bring in £million/billions? to Scotland and create jobs and wealth in Scotland. Stop attacking the SNP and start attacking the Unionists. Do some people never learn? Divide and rule. That is why Scotland has waited so long, nearly 100+ years, for Independence. The one’s who will make it happen are the one’s who (normally) never vote.

  131. Ken500 says:

    The BBC ‘debate’ was controlled, as always. The BBC is (Unionists) Westminster controlled. The best thing people in Scotland can do is vote Yes.

  132. Albalha says:


    Not quite getting who on here is supping with the devil. Is that all of us who’re not SNP members and may question some tactics or comment on their TV performances or query why the SNP vote didn’t turn up in Cowdenbeath?

    Baffled from Dundee.

  133. Ken500 says:

    If Party members are going round the Doors with postal voting forms (as has been reported) that is electoral fraud. Postal voting forms should only be available by post. Ie the reason they are supposed to be authorised is the applicant’s inability to get to the Polling place. Party workers should not be collecting them, ever. Gerrymandering.

  134. Alba4Eva says:

    Indy_Scot says:
    I don’t see how I would stop being British after a Yes vote given that I still live in the British Isles.

    That OS map for Great Britain is completely wrong… Great Britain is the name of an island… the last time I looked, there was quite a bit of sea between that island and Orkney, Shetland, Wesrwen Isles, Arran etc

  135. Ken500 says:

    Davidson was economic with the truth. In the Aberdeenshire all pupils got to vote. Ie 12 year olds, and they were being giving biased information. Ie they would not be able to watch x factor (given by a teacher). Despite the fact ‘X factor’ is produced by a company and then bought in to Scotland by a ‘private’ UK licensed TV company. ‘American x factor’ etc is also available on some licenced Media. Even TV reporters do not appear to know how the Media industry works. Are they so ignorant?

    Broadcasting is not devolved to the Scottish Gov.

  136. john king says:


    What Ken said

  137. john king says:

    “Severin C on crowd funding”

    Saw that Albalaha balance from him? that’s got to be a first. 😉

  138. Albalha says:

    Maybe he’s looking ahead and realises after a YES vote he’ll be asking Stuart for work!

  139. john king says:

    Ha ha ha ha more than likely.

  140. bunter says:

    Been very disappointed at the two debates this week, no surprise both were hosted by the BBC. The biggest disappointment was the performance of the SNP/pro indy panel members. There is a lack of fight and passion in them and unless they know something we don’t, I cant see how YES is going to win . At both Greenock and Dundee, they have been up against third raters and/or proven liars and they didn’t lay a glove on them. I thought Sillars might have got tore into New Labours Dugdale a bit more and had very little to say about the Tories and Davidson. I think some of us on here would have done a better job, indeed the audiences have! The anti independence parties aided and abetted by their media puppets are building up a momentum of smears and misinformation, while we seem to be fighting just to hold onto what we have

    The SNP and YES campaign need to give the troops something soon, or else the people on the ground will just adopt Swinneys attitude last night, and just assert ”we will win” and just sit on our backsides as well.

  141. Albalha says:


    Well it’s Kelso next for the BBC referednum debate.Let’s see how that goes.

  142. Westie7 says:

    5500 ish majority with over 8000 postal votes
    50% of previous SNP voters sitting on their arse
    Something really amiss here
    Whilst we all laugh at Labour MSPs week in week out and comment on how useless they are
    The impression last night gives the undecideds is that Labour are on the up and with the MSM tilting the field as was done in last nights QT there is nothing reporting other wise

    I’m normally a positive minded individual but these points need dealt with before more damage is done. Convincing ourselves with anecdotal excuses is planning to fail

  143. Albalha says:


    Their, Labour etc, machine is constantly switched on and it’s relentless. They’ve decided that attacking Salmond is a good tactic. Will it backfire we’ll see but in the PR department they’re not useless.

  144. scottish_skier says:

    Labour hold = entirely expected result

    Labour can’t draw out full support, even in desperate times = expected result

    SNP vote see less need to turn out as even if they all did, they wouldn’t change the result = expected result

    UKIP loose deposit = expected result

    Survey on indy reveals growing support for Yes with parity or Yes even ahead = expected result.

  145. Westie7 says:


    Spot on, and Hyslop and Swinney have just shown how far we have to go

  146. Ian Kirkwood says:

    Chic and Molly – I agree with you comments on the QT performances. Swinney was poor and should have been more assertive. Dugdale and RD took their chance. Why did RD get so much time? Because she could! She even managed to charm Sillars, which kept him quiet.
    YES have to do much better, especially on the few MSM opportunities. Do they have people following these blogs, there is so much good info/input which they should be using.

  147. Westie7 says:

    Quick OT if I may

    Can someone remind me what the rough details were of that EU farming funding that was withheld recently, got a Tory No farmer needs enlightening here

  148. Robert Louis says:

    Cowdenbeath is no great surprise, sure it would have been nice for SNP to win, but it didn’t happen. What is interesting is the response the SNP have had on the doorsteps in Fife regarding referendum voting intentions, with a majority indicating a YES vote. That fact alone is very, very telling. It shows that the likes of Lamont, Sarwar and the rest of Labour in Scotland are completely out of touch with how Labour voters feel about independence .

    Fact is, regarding independence, Labour have backed the wrong horse.

    As for the criticism of John Swinney in debates, I think it is unfair. He is not, nor has even been what you might term a ‘barnstormer’. He is a clever measured man, who has a deserved rock solid financial reputation. Indeed Scotland has probably never had such expert financial management.. As regards Fiona Hyslop, well I’m not convinced she is quite on the case regarding the arguments surrounding independence, so I don’t think she is the best person for the independence campaign to put forward for debates.

    However, all of that misses the point, that Better together are sitting watching as ALL their negative ‘FEAR’ arguments dissolve one by one before their very eyes. It only takes a cursory glance at what is in the biased pro unionist media to see just how much the anti independence campaign is panicking. They are near hysterical now.

    Finally, never forget, there are those who would seek to sew division amongst independence supporters, and we all need to be on our guard, as it regularly pops up here and elsewhere.

    It is people getting out and talking about independence that will win for us. We are very nearly there, and once we reach the tipping point, there will literally be an avalanche.

    Two years of scare mongering from Better together has not worked, and still we see no positive case for the union (because their isn’t one). That is why we will win.

  149. Ian Brotherhood says:

    If we want to see more fire and passion coming from the Yes reps, then let’s see ‘Yes’ being properly represented – when was the last time you saw anyone from the SSP being invited to appear on any of these discussions?

    Isn’t Colin Fox good enough to be considered for inclusion?

  150. Westie7 says:

    Cheers Rev

    If I can turn this one that could be the whole “tea break” bunch turned

  151. Les Wilson says:

    O/T Amazon are selling a YES waterproof light jacket, for £17 for anyone interested.

  152. Robert Louis says:


    Another source regarding the UK decision to rob Scottish farmers of EU money.

    Also, here is the cross party letter from the Scottish Parliament to David Cameron in London. The point being that this isn’t just the SNP complaining:

    And here is a letter from the First Minister to David Cameron regarding the outrage:

  153. Doonfooter says:

    If anything Tuesday night’s BBC2 debate and last night’s QT simply confirm that the vote won’t be won by professional politicians debating on TV!

    Thankfully I can contrast that with the excellent event on Wednesday night at the Glad Cafe in Glasgow where Michelle Thomson and Ivan McKee (Business for Scotland) together with Alan Bissett presented a rational and passionate case for a Yes vote followed by a robust Q&A. No politicians, real people presenting and arguing the case for Indy.

    That chimes with Jim Murphys rant against Cybernats. These are ordinary people often outwith the traditional party politics who through social media and the internet have found a voice. Its a voice which is often well versed in the arguments and well able to counter the lies and propoganda spouted without challenge on the MSM. It is obvious this un-nerves the professional politicos – gosh voters having an opinion and goodness me expressing it!

    In South Ayrshire for Indy we have found that our most passionate speakers and activists are those who have never been in a political party or those who were longtime members/footsoldiers but have found a renewed voice, a realisation and a commitment that this can only be won by us on the ground talking face to face on the High Street and other local events with people like us.

    We need to continue to get amongst it. Don’t despair at the MSM debates.

  154. Craig M says:

    Re scottish_skier

    Is there a link to the results of the Survey on indy that you quote, and how it was conducted?

  155. Les Wilson says:

    The debates last night were carefully crafted, as where were some questions before to roughly gauge where YES voters were gathered in groups or not. Then the choosing could be manipulated.

    I also noticed in the Dimbelby debate there were a number of times when someone was allowed to make an attack on the SNP at length,but no allowance for a reply. This happened with both John Swinney and Jim Sillers, so what does that tell you. Don’t even get me started about Sanwar, who was allowed to say anything at length about the SNP, as long as it was negative.

    The same carried over into the by election coverage, on both STV and BBC it was a again allowed to be beyond doubt anti SNP, again with lots of negatives, and subliminal messages.Brian Taylor is a sneak and is very careful how he spins his story but he does it. The whole lot of them just make you sick.

  156. Gillie says:

    Very interesting polling on independence from Cowdenbeath.

    From a low turn out of 34% and from the 11k people who actually turned up to vote we had this result;

    41% Yes
    35% No
    28% Don’t Know

    It has been argued that the YES campaign needs a high turnout – it doesn’t.

    It has been argued that the YES vote is soft – it’s not.

    Cowdenbeath is a safe Labour seat, and on the day the SNP did not get its vote out, but this by-election showed that a high proportion of Labour voters are prepared to vote Yes.

    That highlights that the way to a YES victory is actually in Labour strongholds like Cowdenbeath.

  157. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “From a low turn out of 34% and from the 11k people who actually turned up to vote we had this result;

    41% Yes
    35% No
    28% Don’t Know”

    Isn’t that from canvassing returns, rather than the people who turned out to vote?

  158. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “If I can turn this one that could be the whole “tea break” bunch turned”

    This might also be handy:

  159. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    The Cowdenbeath result merely indicates the effect of a relentless vilification of Alex Salmond and the SNP in all of the media.

    Those who think that the papers have no effect on voting intention are deluding themselves.

    I wish people would understand that virtually all the popular press suggested and supported an SNP vote before the 2011 election which was the establishment’s sleekit plan to protect a newly installed and vulnerable UK Tory led coalition in Westminster from a huge Labour victory in Scotland.
    It backfired by giving the SNP a huge overall majority which was not meant to happen.

    We are where we are now and Labour for Independence is key in the months ahead.

    Ask anybody today if they can remember anything the two lassies said on last night’s QT. They made no significant political contribution except meaningless waffle. I think some people on here need to abandon the expectation that we will wipe the floor with opponents in debates.

    Both Swinney and Sillars contributed in the ways they can and did fine. Anybody who expects John Swinney to be landing savage blows against political opponents doesn’t recognise what he does and has been doing for years. He presents a thoughtful, progressive, non-aggressive and very sensible face of nationalism

  160. Marcia says:

    Isn’t that from canvassing returns, rather than the people who turned out to vote?


    It would be.

  161. john king says:

    Les Wilson says
    “O/T Amazon are selling a YES waterproof light jacket, for £17”

    Are you serious?
    don’t encourage people to buy anything from Amazon there have got to be other sources.

    Sorry Les but I think in an independent Scotland there will be no place for people like Amazon unless they completely change their behaviour I regard(personally)them as beyond The Pale.

    I found a windcheater that’s better and two quid cheaper from the SNP store

  162. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Edwina Currie on CallKaye, telling us how to get a job.


  163. call me dave says:

    Postal votes can be requested by anyone, not just the infirm or ill. On the form for your electoral registration to the council there are two boxes.

    Do you want ‘not’ to appear on printed full electoral register
    Do you want to use a postal vote.

    Just filled mine out and posted it back yesterday

  164. chalks says:

    Great Polling results and with on average just over half of the undecideds predicted to go to Yes, that would give us a Majority.

    As for the SNP’s performance in these debates, I still think they are holding off attacking with real venom. As has been discussed elsewhere, keep the powder dry.

    Besides, looking at the numbers for Labour for Indy and this polling data, everything is going along well.

    Need I remind people that no one watches QT, it is a politics programme.

  165. call me dave says:


    It’s official I can still be British.

  166. chalks says:

    Just to add as never saw the comments above, I believe the indy poll conducted was done via ‘leafleting’ rather than door canvassing, so you get an SNP leaflet about the local candidate and then a card with the question on it, which I believe is freepost to send back….

  167. Les Wilson says:

    The YES campaign need to get to the bottom of the postal votes thing, it has long been the Labour tool of preference.
    This needs to be fully examined and find a counter for it. Maybe indulging ourselves to use the Labour system of securing the postal votes against them. I do not understand why this would not already have been done.

    I think how they do this, and others can correct me, is- they go to a door, speak to the elderly, the disabled and the can’t be bothered.

    “Oh if you sign here we can put the voting forms in for you and save you all that trouble, a lot easier for you eh!.” ” Oh yes son, I canna be bothered trying to get doon there, will you just do it for me then!”
    ” Of course we will, we will see it is all done for you and you will know that you have voted, so you don’t need to worry!”
    “That’s great son we will just do that, where do I sign.”

    “Oh you just tick a box, no, that one there, and sign at the bottom.”
    ” Oh great son, thanks for helping me do the right thing!”

    They walk away smiling, job done.

  168. TheGreatBaldo says:

    Last night was the footballing equivalent of an away League Cup Tie with the reserves and kids and a ‘homer’ ref.

    I suspect even Natalie McGarry knew she was never gonna win and was only there to be blooded and gain experience for the 2016 campaign…and the SNP effectively scooped out and ate the Lib Dems whole in Fife in 2011 which is why they even got close in a genuine Labour stronghold last time

    What does it tell us about anything….well Labour has a large tribal vote in Fife which is up there with Pope being Catholic in terms of revelations.

    The Cowdenbeath result and QT and their impact on the Indy Ref…absolutely nothing I’d say I reckon the majority of folk watching OT have made their minds up either way and I doubt anyone outwith Cowdenbeath knew or even cared about the By Election (and judging by the turnout not that many in Cowdenbeath either).

    Let Labour have and enjoy their day and convince themselves this has historic meaning, I recall similar predictions of the end of the SNP in govt. from Murphy and Alexander after the 2010 election. Hubris is a bitch.

  169. morgan mc says:

    Incase anyone missed it “european union” sits atop your current UK passport. You belong to a country called European Union, you are a citizen of it and its policy whims. Holyrood and Westminster just debate how they will implement their policy. The Euro EU member states pledge allegiance to the flag, anthem and currency of the EU as signed off in the EU Constitution.

    The SNP and the Westminster elite use the EU project fear mantra. That Scotland and the UK and other states are too wee, too stupid to look after their own policy decisions.
    Anyone who says that we must be in the EU or jobs will be lost really must think about the 60 nations who trade with the EU but are not in it. Trade does not require political union.

    All this smokescreen about not being chucked out it..we were never asked to be in it. The Common Market was a different vote. That did not require surrendering our own agriculture and fisheries,energy, law Amongst other reserved to the EU departments.

    On Wednesday Westminster had an afternoon session on how they were going to take forward the EU program for 2014. Anybody see anything wrong with that position at a Holyrood or Westminster level.

    As the EU are always saying their goal is “United States of Europe” (Vivien Reding EU Commissioner) All the EUphiles on here should be honest that all they are after is DevoMax in the EU.

  170. kininvie says:

    So the Lib Dems are now down there with ‘others’? The party in Scotland really does seem to have its nuts in the nutcracker. Linked inescapably to the Tories, and with no clear idea of what it can offer Scotland apart from vague and unrealistic ‘working together’ ideas. No wonder UKIP beat them.

  171. Mary Bruce says:

    @Westie7, there is a Farming for Yes page on facebook where you can find lots of information, here is the link:

    Here is another article from the Scottish Farmer newspaper, it shows how the farming community are becoming increasingly angry at Westminster:

  172. Bubbles says:

    I think our elected reps are simply not doing the job they’re paid to do. Last night should have been open goals and we lost. We’ve lost in all competitions this week. I’ll be seeing John Skinner in a fortnight and will be taking this up with him. However, if it was down to me I’d refuse to participate in these “debates”.

  173. Gillie says:

    The Lib Dems look finished in Scotland. They could well be wiped out in future elections.

    So the question is – who benefits?

    Considering the nature of the Lib Dem constituencies for Westminster and the Scottish parliament results in 2011 the SNP are set to benefit.

    The next few years are going to very interesting whatever happens in September.

  174. Alabaman says:

    Regarding the Cowdenbeath , and for that matter the Dunfermline by elections, when will the SMP come out fighting?, is it money that’s holding them back (I know that Labour has a big “war chest” for these )and I get angry when the Westminster MP s come up to interfere in what is an election to the Scottish parliament , no it is about time they (the SMP) went on the f###$€*^% g warpath! none of this nice stuff, the stakes are too high.

  175. gerry parker says:

    @ westie 7
    5500 ish majority with over 8000 postal votes
    From Fife Council.

    “8,391 postal vote packs were issued within the constituency and 5,586 were returned (66.57%).

    5,440 valid votes were included in the count.”

  176. Bill McLean says:

    chalks – have you anything to support that the independence question was asked by “leafleting” rather than face-to-face. Prof John Curtice on BBC2 Newsnight Scotland (election special)tried to diminish the result by the old “they say anything to get rid of the doorstepper”.
    By the way I thought Derek MacKay SNP gave the result of the indy poll as YES 41, NO 30 – maybe I misheard as the wife was probably shouting at me at the time. Still a good result and indicator that many Labour folk are for Independence!

  177. MochaChoca says:

    The only positive I’m taking from last nights result is that, with the referendum being topic No1 in the current political landscape, virtually no-one who isn’t a YES will have voted SNP (28.4% of the vote). But there will have been plenty of YES’s who didn’t vote SNP (15-20% of the rest of the vote).

    This ties in nicely with the canvassing poll.

    Also, nice to big smiles from the BBC bods when the estimated 55% to Labour was reported.

  178. chalks says:

    Bill, BOD by election in Aberdeen, was card based with a freepost, many SNP branches have been using the cards put out by HQ with the question on it and the freepost address….they are also collected by snp helpers….I would doubt very much that it was a door to door question and answering session….but I could be wrong, just going on what I know is currently going on in other areas….I’d imagine it would take too long to stand on the doorstep of 11,000 people and ask them questions pertaining to indy….ESPECIALLY when they are there for a by election.

    And Curtice is full of shit with that response

  179. chalks says:

    Sorry, would just like to add that officially there were 5440 postal votes cast…in total for the election.

  180. Bill McLean says:

    chalks – thanks for reply. whatever way it’s a good sign and of course folk are as likely to say NO to get rid of doorsteppers as say YES! I thought Curtice was at it but interested to know what the process was. Thanks again!

  181. bald eagle says:

    twenty 14 @1207am

    when you go into the polling station and hand over your card the person looks up your name and number these relate to your name and address

    its the same with postal voting so i dont see why these cant be checked if there is suspected fraud sorry i forgot there is far to many postal vote papers in the first place and the reg numbers can be changed in the registry

    so if anybody is using postal votes take a copy of the number in the top of the vote paper and if any inquiry is needed you can prove your vote also put a hidden mark that only you know about these type of votes must be checked by all parties better still photocopy your vote with the hidden mark and if it is needed you have got proof dont risk doing nothing

  182. MochaChoca says:

    Are we suggesting postal votes are being harvested and completed by someone other than the voter? Or that a certain party is selectively assisting those with a certain voting intention?

  183. Alabaman says:

    YES, anything where Labour are evolved the answer is always——–YES!.

  184. Kenny Campbell says:

    UK BA confirmed today that all UK citizens at time of IScotland will retain passport as will their kids… As per normal.

  185. Onzebill says:

    John King @ 0950

    Well spotted that’s a definite buy for me.

    Folks 200+ days to go to change minds, going well in my local, I have definitely detected a swing in our direction from a few months ago, no shyness about discussing voting Yes openly here.

  186. desimond says:

    John King, Onzebil

    Greaves do a cheap Saltire Poncho, Only £2 quid, picked up a pair for the last Edinburgh Rally, thankfully never needed.

  187. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    I remain puzzled by folk contributing here wondering why the SNP vote didn’t turn up at the by elections. I’m beginning to think that some of them are fairly dense.

    It is really very simple. The general public have been deluged by a vicious, dishonest, personally abusive and disgusting continuous campaign against the SNP and Alex Salmond in all the media for nearly two years.
    As we control none of the media we have no way of combating this except by direct contact with voters by canvassing, leafleting, YES newspapers and public meetings. This we are doing. The YES votes rises .

    The SNP knew exactly that this was going to happen which is why the all party YES campaign was put together, which is a masterstroke which will win the referendum
    Which Better Together know. Which is why they continue to deliberately try to suggest it is Alex Salmond’s referendum and continue to relentlessly defame him.

    I’m getting a bit pissed off with some of the smartarses on
    here who do not seem to have grasped the enormity of the difficulties we face

  188. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    As I understand it the signature on the application for a postal vote has to be the same as the signature on the actual postal vote. At Glenrothes there was so many postal votes the returning officer only checked a random one in six and even at that he disqualified a significant proportion of them

  189. David Smith says:

    My current UK passport expires in October 2016. I don’t intend renewing and hopefully by the previous March it will be superfluous and in all probability shredded by my own good offices anyway.
    I will renounce my UK subjectship as a matter of course! 🙂

  190. Patrick Roden says:

    @ Dave,
    “I’m getting a bit pissed off with some of the smartarses on
    here who do not seem to have grasped the enormity of the difficulties we face”

    So I’m not the only one!

    Wakey, Wakey, people, the SNP/Yes campaign was deliberately set up, so that anyone and everyone can be a part of it.

    Stop whingeing about how John Swinney missed open goals, because the SNP have repeatedly said that they feel they will win the referendum as long as they don’t get into the gutter with BT.

    If they think being positive will win, they will stay positive.

    If you think slagging off our own side will win…just keep it up. and watch just how many DK you either put off from visiting wings, or put off from voting for the weaklings in Yes/SNP.

    After all, if they can’t win a simple debate, how could they run Scotland?

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