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Votes of confidence

Posted on December 03, 2014 by

Alert readers will already be aware that we’re not the biggest fans of prospective Scottish Labour deputy “leader” Kezia Dugdale. Even this site, however, doesn’t think the Lothian list MSP is so inept and slow-witted that she could single-handedly be held responsible for the party losing the next two general elections.

katyclarkletter

Some of her comrades, however, have less faith.

The paragraph above – click the image to see the full letter – is taken from an email sent out today by two prospective Scottish Labour candidates, Carol Mochan from Ayrshire and Lesley Brennan, a councillor from Dundee. (Impressively, it seems they managed to send it to a mailing list that included both SNP and Conservative M/SPs.)

Both are supporters of Dugdale’s only rival for the deputy leadership, the left-wing MP Katy Clark, and the email makes the extraordinary claim that should Clark not win the contest (and therefore, if Dugdale does), Labour will be on “a surefire path to defeat” in both the 2015 UK general election and the 2016 Holyrood one.

And people say WE’RE a bit harsh sometimes. Ooft.

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    1. 03 12 14 17:01

      Votes of confidence | FreeScotland

    2. 03 12 14 17:42

      Votes of confidence - Speymouth

    3. 17 03 15 23:46

      The Devo Files: Katy Clark (North Ayrshire & Arran) | A Wilderness of Peace

    294 to “Votes of confidence”

    1. Alexandra-M- says:

      Ouch , must be great to know your party’s potential MPs are behind you…. Just waiting to stick the knife in your back.

    2. Democracy Reborn says:

      Memo to Kezia : with comrades like that, who needs vile nationalist separatists?…

    3. Grizzle McPuss says:

      “Led by Gaius Cassius Longinus and Marcus Junius Brutus, they stabbed Julius Caesar to death in a location adjacent to the Theatre of Pompey on the Ides of March”

      And from history 1970 years later, politics is just as messy.

    4. No no no...Yes says:

      History repeating itself. Labour shoots itself in the foot when the opposition is having a bad day. Remember their antics with white van man and that flag when UKIP gave Tories a doing in the by-election.

      Sore one for Kezia, haha.

      Things are shaping up well for the winning combo of Findlay and Clark. Noticed big Jim Murphy absent on today’s TV Autumn statement programme on BBC Scotland. Was it because Jim’s not too good on numbers and specifics. Heaven forbid he would have to say anything that come back to haunt him.

    5. Wee Jonny says:

      Two faced barstools. Alastair Campbell couldnay spin his wiy oot o that ane.

    6. Jane Paterson says:

      Fantastic SLab imploding but it’s ok because “the SNP are not a progressive party” you couldn’t make it up. Looks to me that SNP are progressing rather well.

    7. Capella says:

      “Anyone who’s knocked on a door recently will have heard the same thing we hear day in, day out – people are fed up of Labour”
      So they DO know they are detested for their betrayal of social democratic values. They DO know that the SNP promote social democratic values.
      The remedy seems obvious!

    8. archie neil says:

      Carol Mochan and Lesley Brennan are right about Labour losing the next two elections if Kezia Dugdale is elected deputy.
      What they are wrong in is the implication that Labour could win if Katy Clark won the contest. Labour are destined to lose no matter who the leader or the deputy leader is.

    9. think again says:

      Katy or Kezia, it will not make much if any difference, Tory boy Murphy will see to that. At least Scottish Labour can tell the truth sometimes – surefire defeat, I rather like the sound of that.

    10. Steve Bowers says:

      With friends like these……………..

    11. mumsyhugs says:

      Kezia take your pick from the following –

      Keep your friends close and your enemies closer
      Or
      With friends like these who needs enemies.

      Either way I’d say you’re in a lose/lose situation even if you win – shame about that.

    12. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @ Capella

      Don’t be so logical. Labour only do visceral emptyheadedness.

    13. Lollysmum says:

      What a shower of shit Labour (Scottish & Westminster) are. A parcel of rogues is nowhere near a sufficient description of them. Tell you one thing though they are doing a wonderful job of destroying Labour from within aren’t they?

      Infighting doesn’t even begin to describe their present state.

      Had to spend the day in London today so did not put me in the best of moods but this letter is priceless. Normal equilibrium restored thanks to Stu & now I can’t stop laughing.

      Osborne produced his autumn statement today & lo & behold he’s copied SNP’s stamp duty tax. SNP bad? Can’t be that bad. LOL

    14. Les Wilson says:

      Yes, Slab continues to implode. Good, that is what they deserve for all their lies and deceit shown to fellow countrymen (and women), so many times. Their politicians are the worst available.

      Our main objective MUST be to wipe them out in 2015,so everyone knows they ARE, the low life’s of Scotland.

    15. Chas says:

      I received a similar letter from my prospective Conservative candidate in West Aberdeenshire. He was bemoaning the fact that the Lib-Dems were in meltdown and thus recognised that the incumbent (Sir Robert Smith) might be defeated. He urged me to vote for him in order to keep the SNP out. I wrote him a nice reply and posted it on his FB page.

    16. liz says:

      Wont make ANY difference who they vote in as will always have to bow to Milliband and Balls.

      The danger is they will try to convince voters they have changed.

    17. joe kane says:

      (Impressively, it seems they managed to send it to a mailing list that included both SNP and Conservative M/SPs.)
      – Scottish Labour showing its usual antediluvian grasp of all things to do with computers and the t’internet.

      You can see why they’re so transfixed by people that can actually use modern systems of communication that they feel the need to call them names, such as “cybernat”, in order to hide their embarrassment about a thing that’s totally beyond their dinosauric ken.

    18. annie says:

      Personally I would say they were being realistic, makes a change for Labour candidates to be so honest.

    19. Oneironaut says:

      Speaking as one of Katy Clark’s constituents, I’m becoming more and more convinced that she’s no longer as left-wing as she used to be.
      Maybe the mere sniff of Westminster money can tempt anyone…

      I do know that her actions during and after the referendum have completely destroyed any respect I may once have had for her.

    20. gerry parker says:

      @ Grizzle.
      “See what a rent the envious Casca made”

    21. ghostly606 says:

      I hear “the SNP are not a progressive party” all the time from the Nat bashers (usually worried Labour types) and I must say I am confused. Am I missing some Right Wing chapter in their manifesto? To me, along with the Greens and SSP (i.e. pro independence parties), the SNP are the definition of progressive.

    22. jimnarlene says:

      It seems, I will have to develop a taste for popcorn. Labour implosion, fantastic viewing indeed.

    23. manandboy says:

      O/T but of interest – apologies Stu.

      The Template for the Indy NO CAMPAIGN was lifted from Quebec. And it will be used again and again again by WM.
      In GE15, in 2016 and 17 and beyond till Indy is dead and the UK has settled down.

      Unless the electorate get up, switch off the TV and JOIN UP
      by joining the SNP -the GREENS -RIC-SSP.
      PLEASE do it NOW. Thank you.

      Please read on:-

      The defeat of 1980 (in Québec) can be explained by many factors.
      Chief among them was the scare campaign from the No side
      which convinced many older voters to choose security over freedom.”

      http://www.bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/12/03/a-tale-of-two-referendums/

      Lessons from Québec on the politics of nation and class. By Benoit Renaud.

    24. Kenzie says:

      Such a badly written letter deserves all the opprobrium it attracts, both for the letter itself and for those it promotes.

    25. Blair paterson says:

      I said I would not post on this site again ?But I am so angry to hear that N.S. May suspend the 3 councilers who burned the smith report .at last we have people in the S.N.P. Doing something and their reward is to be suspended just to appease the unionist,parties if we are to do things to please our opponents by punishing our own people who have a backbone then I really fear for,our future for gods sake let’s start to fight,back award the councilers a medal ,

    26. R-type Grunt says:

      For the record, Lesley Brennan is a class-A moron. I attended a socialist meeting where she did the most embarrassing PowerPoint presentation I have ever seen. The whole point of it was not to promote socialism but to pick holes in SNP policy and give the minions present some ammo to counter the Yes campaign. And she’s a lawyer, as far as I remember. A despicable, twisted individual who will do anything to raise her own profile.

      What is it about Dundee? We have some truly great Scots here but some real embarrassments too. Jim McGovern anyone?

    27. Capella says:

      O/T but following on from the corrupt press theme –
      Excellent piece by George Monbiot on the Scottish Land Reform programme:
      “Scotland is rudely interrupting the constructed silences that stifle political thought in the United Kingdom. This is why the oligarchs who own the media hate everything that is happening there: their interests are being exposed in a way that is currently impossible south of the border.”
      http://www.monbiot.com/2014/12/02/breaking-the-silence/
      Also, one of the oligarchic media lackeys, Alan Cochrane, is the object of Derek Bateman’s contempt today. Worth a read.
      So much excellent comment – so little time!

    28. Papadox says:

      To labour (scottish region)

      NOW is the time for all good men (or women) to come to the aid of the party.

      Labour problem, they don’t have any good members left, any they had left long ago. They are where they are and he’ll mend them!

      Conclusion: the only thing keeping labour’s head above water is the EBC & MSM.

    29. Capella says:

      @ Blair paterson
      Burning books has an unfortunate precedent and should be avoided at all costs. They could have publicly shredded it as the front page of the Sunday Herald did! That doesn’t ring any nasty bells.

    30. fred blogger says:

      Blair paterson
      don’t be so daft.
      they have access to keyboards i’m sure.
      protest @ the rally’s and @ the ballot box, use reasoned arguments.
      let truth be the driver for change.
      not stupid stunts.

    31. galamcennalath says:

      The North British sub branch of Labour, just oozing confidence, ehh? At least they know what’s coming their way! And, some of them have an incline why. Too late, guys, the train left without you.

    32. fred blogger says:

      galamcennalath
      the writings on the wall, but in their case the wall is now on the writing. 🙂

    33. manandboy says:

      Just a thought.

      Under the floorboards in the average house
      run the pipes that carry the hot water from the boiler
      to your radiators and to your taps.
      This is the system of pipes which make life
      comfortable at home.

      Underneath Scotland run the pipes that carry
      the oil and gas and water from Scotland to England,
      to the Treasury and the City of London.
      This is the system of pipes which make life
      comfortable in England – but not in Scotland.

      Red Tories or Blue Tories,
      Kezia Dugdale or Katy Clark, it makes no difference.
      They are both delighted with those pipes
      taking Scotland’s wealth down to England FOR FREE.

      Time to vote the unionists out of Scotland completely.

      Time to fit a meter on those pipes
      and charge the going rate for all the oil, gas and water
      flowing under our feet to make England comfortable
      while Scotland starves and freezes and queues at foodbanks.

    34. drawdeaddave says:

      So much for Murphy’s togetherness, How could anyone with an ounce of sense vote for a Labour party that cant even run itself far less a country, forget they have sold their soul to the establishment, forget they are no longer the party of the people, forget their downright lies, forget the alliance with their anti Scottish Tory chums, the fact they can’t send a simple e-mail says all you need to know, techno dinosaurs in an age of technology, Labour so out of touch with the electorate and reality it’s cringe worthy.

    35. Grouse Beater says:

      Some nonentity called Jim McGovern slyly asks Smith if burning his report is akin to Nazi Germany burning books.

      That’s the level of opposition we face in Scotland, pathetically low politicians who think a democratically elected administration are Nazis out of uniform.

      Now, who among us would not want to sanction Mr McGovern for gross libel?

    36. Training Day says:

      Good strategy from Jim McGovern.

      ‘Hey, you Labour voters who’ve switched to SNP. You’re now Nazis. But come back to Labour all the same, why dontcha?’

    37. Kenny Campbell says:

      Et Tu Bruti !!!

    38. Valerie says:

      What a bunch of losers Labour are, and they are none the wiser as to the reasons for that state of affairs.

      They do not deserve support, that has to be earned.

      SNP not progressive???? Right, that means all the freebies Swinney has squeezed out of the meagre budget, and now moving forward on childcare and land reform are all regressive punishment to the electorate. Stop it, SNP!!

    39. manandboy says:

      Jim Murphy’s No.1 task is this – how can he scare the elderly into voting Labour.

      Is he going to tell them that if they don’t vote Labour, their pension will go down,
      they’ll be put out of their home,
      they’ll be euthanised if they have any medical conditions,
      they’ll lose their home carer,
      their gas and electric will be cut off,
      there’ll be tanks on the streets.

      Yep. That should be enough. All the things that are likely if they DO vote Labour.

    40. Brad says:

      so this will be Katy “Scotland could end up letting us down” Clark …. arrogant bitch that sentence alone is ample ammunition against this cretin

    41. Clootie says:

      “One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors”.

      Plato

    42. Fran says:

      And the panic continues. The infighting wont cease for a long time and expect more high profile attacks on this blog Rev. Sites like this are a major concern to the unionists because they know we’re not going to walk quietly into the night. People are still talking about independence and the BT mob hate it, we are not a small minority as they try to proclaim.

    43. Andy-B says:

      I think secretly Labour realise that they’re on a hiding to nothing, just look at their candidates for both branch manager and assistant manager.

      Labour aren’t exactly overflowing with charismatic characters at the moment, Murphy Boyack, Findlay, Dugdale and Clark, not exactly folk to look up to now are they.

    44. bookie from hell says:

      burning #smithreport snp

      could be a work of unintended genious

      MSM Scotland have been praising the smith report new powers

      Yet top news item now is 3 scots calling it garbage on youtube–no new powers–finaly getting the message across

    45. biggpolmont says:

      Kez was ot in my neck of the woods a couple of weeks ago and got short shift from a good number of people but one of my fellow members was visiting one of his neighbours a little old woman in her eighties when her little team arrived He sat in the livingroom while his neighbour answered the door and this is how he tells me it went.
      Hello Mrs ****** My name is ***** and I am here from the local branch of the labour party to talk to you abou…
      You done all the talking I want to hear I dont want to hear another word from you.
      But we have you and Mr ****** down as inactive members and we just wanted……
      I know what you want but I am to old and to polite to say what you need. besides we are not members we sent in our resignation letters so you better not still be taking money for our membership…
      Oh when did you send it in ?
      the old dear who was a little angry by this time was raised her voice and let rip
      When that joan lament started spouting Tory claptrap and the whole lot of you sold Scotland down the river now get away from my door and dont dare come back you should be thankful mr ****** is not in because he would really give you a mouthful.
      Our member went to the kitchen put on the kettle and started making a cup of tea to try and calm the old dear down they were still talking when in came mr ******. they talked a bit longer and we now have two new members who have a combined age of 171 who have already volunteered to help out in May.
      So to the labour party I ask please keep doing what you have been doing.
      Roll on May!

    46. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

      “people simply don’t trust Labour anymore”. They should have added, because we campaigned with the tories against Scotland’s best interests.

      So the big idea is listen to peoples anger. Then of course just feckin ignore them as usual.

    47. john king says:

      Anger doesn’t even come close to how I feel at the moment,
      I am appalled that Nicola Sturgeon has been so timid as to suspend those people for expressing something we all know,
      WE WERE SHAFTED,
      SCOTLAND WAS SHAFTED,
      No amount of sweet words and nice smiles to cameras will obscure that FACT,

      Nicola by all that is holy , if you value your job and your party,
      REVERSE THAT DECISION,

      I for one am about to resign my membership of the SNP if she does not reinstate those people forthwith and issue a strongly worded attack on the insult that Smith delivered on Scotland!

      I have never in 40 years been so ashamed of the SNP

    48. Nana Smith says:

      We’re doomed unless you choose me, says Scottish Labour deputy leadership candidate

      The herald is now running with this..

      SCOTTISH Labour deputy leadership candidate Katy Clark has claimed the party faces certain defeat at the hands of the SNP unless she is elected to the key role.

    49. liz says:

      The SNP rare taking pelters on twitter for over-reacting to the Smith paper burning.

      Think AS would have handled it better, best to have said we will deal with it and move on.

      There is no point in trying to placate Lab politicos who scream about the slightest thing – mountain getting made out of mole hill.

    50. Croompenstein says:

      Kezia’s face will be looking worse than her Daily Heil ‘save me from the cybernats’ coupon..

      On the SNP cooncilors could they be Trojan horses, I just don’t get why they would do the burning I mean we all know it’s shit. And the msm shitstorm and the unionists going all ‘Rita Hayworth’ must have been foreseen by them I mean they aren’t apprentices.

    51. Papadox says:

      Re Jim mcgovern’s rant to laughing Lordy Smiff.

      How many burnt reports equals the bayoneting of one wounded person, never mind all the wounded?

      What happened to all the child abuse reports that were sent to the home office? Maybe they were shredded, so that will be OK then, don’t think so.

      What about all the MPs expenses that can’t be verified or checked since they were burnt or were they shredded. That really makes a difference ey?

      In a previous post I said labour scottish region had no decent “politicians” left. Thank you “honourable” Jim McGovern for proving my point.

    52. Grouse Beater says:

      Think AS would have handled it better, best to have said we will deal with it.

      I guess the executive is caught between showing they can accept the consequence of a No vote and whatever the Smith Report offers, any protest from the membership unwanted at the moment.

      Even if the exec screamed blue murder over the kidology that is the Report – I wish they had – would the media give them space to express dissent comprehensively?

      Seems to me the rats in the press and BBC will do all they can to hammer in the nail a bit further.

      I agree about the over-reaction – with almost 100,000 of a membership, a good many there because they’re rebelling, profound disappointment turned into direct action, the exec have their hands full if they think meetings will be pleasant chat and coffee evenings.

      The councillors who burned the front cover are probably more in touch with public feeling, the direct action I talk of, than steady on the tiller execs.

      But they had better start echoing that anger soon.

    53. heedtracker says:

      Here in Tory boy England, Osborne’s stuff today is being boosted by BBC etc as a Robin Hood tax the rich wonder of the age. It looks like Milliband is not going to allowed to be PM. Nick Robertson’s going to see to it. Good bye Labour. You’ve had you’re day and won’t be missed. Why would red Tory make any real difference from the blue ones anyway.

    54. Paula Rose says:

      @ John King and others – shredding the paper would have been better than burning, burning does have some nasty associations. It is surely not a resigning matter?

    55. heraldnomore says:

      Sorry John, but I disagree. I have to say I was glad to hear of the suspension. The burning was a cunning stunt by a trio of cupid stunts we didn’t need to see at this stage. We all know we’ve been done, but the aim today is May 15, then May 16. Stunts like that ain’t going to increase our vote and will turn away some who may be swithering.

      I have pride in the party and have no wish to be associated with such nonsense. I put it down as a Paisley thing. No doubt after a short suspension and a wrist smacking it will all blow over. But I think that had to be publicly seen to be done, as the statement of condemnation was being dismissed.

      Sure it’s not a hanging offence but if we’re going to win in these elections we have to be seen as the grown up and mature government that we have been these last seven years, and that the Labour party never has been and never will be. As for Rennie, don’t get me started. Looking forward to FMQs.

    56. boris says:

      Two people experts’ in Finance, Economics and Public policy give warning that the Smith Commission proposals are a trap. Scotland should give the report a wide berth, taking up other avenues of policy discussion deciding the agenda for change within Scotland denying Westminster the political leadership they have so badly abused. Scot’s, not the self serving politico’s of the various parties must debate and decide upon our future.

      If ever we wanted to know that the No vote in September was a very big mistake this is the proof. We will now live as two nations with two tax systems and no macro economic control on some key issues living under one umbrella state with one currency that no-one can be sure they control. That’s the definition of a macro-economic mess in the making. I am, I think, appropriately worried. There could have been worse outcomes – and they may still come – but this is a potential nightmare in the making. Richard Murphy; Eminent Accountant and Economist at the Tax Research Institute

      The energy for change and development came not from top-down institutions but from ordinary people and communities. To be consistent with this reality, the form of delivery of the Commission and the framing of its proposals needs to make time for genuine and extensive public discussion of the Heads of Agreement, so that it is the people of Scotland and not simply the representatives of political parties or other vested interests who are consulted and involved in the process of agreeing the instruments for devolving power within and across the nation. Simon Barrow, Co-Director
      Ekklesia UK top 5 Public Policy Think­-tank.

      http://caltonjock.com/2014/12/03/891/

    57. robertknight says:

      O/T – Burning…

      Whatever ‘freedom of expression’ may provide the individual, in politics, you don’t present your opponents with an ‘open goal’.

      These individuals, having I assume a modicum of common sense, should have easily foreseen the outcome of their actions where the anti-SNP MSM is concerned. We don’t need such antics filling the front pages, and if they can’t see the error of their ways then they’re not fit to stand under the banner of the SNP. They might have impressed their like-minded ‘mates’, but nobody else.

    58. Truth says:

      Pigs fighting over the trough.

    59. Blair paterson says:

      To Capella and Fred the blogger you have your views I have mine but I at least put my full name to mine ?

    60. Dr Jim says:

      I got one o they new computy thingy bobys an i burned the boax, diz this meen ahm a Gnatzi or dae ah hifty jine the Labor Party, Aah i dinnae ken whit tae dae, It’s no easy bein a Jockstrap Eh? Every buddy’s a critic..

    61. john king says:

      Have I woken up in a parallel universe?
      “On the SNP cooncilors could they be Trojan horses,”

      Croompenstein?
      of all people?
      are you fucking serious?

      Those people had the gumption to stand up and say it how it really is,
      SCOTLAND WAS SHAFTED,
      and we all stand back in faux horror?

      THEY BURNED A FUCKING PIECE OF PAPER,
      NOT THE KORAN!
      Where was the disgust at Glen Campbell ripping up the SNP manifesto on screen, was HE suspended?
      did he lose his job? DID HE FUCK!
      AS HE ABSOLUTELY CERTAINLY SHOULD HAVE!

      Im off to have a lie down,
      the vein in my forehead is about to blow!!!!!!

      Maybe when I come back I will see we haven’t really turned into Labour hame and it was all a dream?

    62. Robert Louis says:

      Liz

      Wholly agree with what you say above regarding the SNP councillors. Those involved could have found a cure for cancer, and they would still be lambasted, simply because they are SNP.

      Really the SNP have got to get a bit more media savvy, and stop being so awfully timid. They need to grasp that no matter how they behave, EVERY thing they say, no matter how reasonable, will be slagged off by the media and unionists regardless – or didn’t they notice what happened during the referendum. The point being, they should stop apologising for this faux ‘outrage’, as really nobody but Labour and the BBC gives a flying you know what.

      If this had been the labour party in trouble, they would have come out fighting, and attacking the smith commission or Tories or whatever they wanted – effectively using the free airtime. They would not be back pedalling and making things worse.

      In my personal opinion, the only thing the fraudulent smith commission report IS fit for is lighting the fire in the morning. The SNP councillors just did it at the wrong time of day.

      A lot of fuss over nothing. IMHO, they should do it again and again and again, just to wind up unionists. It’s all the damn thing is fit for.

    63. heraldnomore says:

      Calm John. The point here is that these are not just supporters, not your average branch members, not angry folks joining up to move forward; no these are experienced elected members representing the party, holding public office. It’s not on, especially in these present times. They let us all down.

      Others can do the anger bit, but our paid politicians have to lead and to set the example, to see the bigger picture, and to find a way to increase the vote. Did they do that?

    64. Bob Mack says:

      OH!,COME ON PEOPLE,GIVE THE MORON A BREAK.I HAVE TO THAT I FEEL MORE SYMPATHY WITH THE FOUR COUNCILLORS WHO DID NOTHING MORE THAN BURN A BIT OF FICTION.!! P.S. BAD FICTION AT THAT!

    65. Grouse Beater says:

      Paterson: but I at least put my full name to mine

      The anonymity gibe is an old reposte: While I think people who have strong views ought to use their full name it’s counterproductive if you live in an authoritarian state and want to avoid the knock on the door at 2am, or like me, have family you must protect from attack. My persona known, I’ve already been attacked physically in the street – the police proved useless to stop the antagonist.

      Anyhow, my comments are a little off-topic, if relevant to the issue of arguing politics without fear of reprisal.

    66. Robert Louis says:

      Heraldnomore,

      Seriously, nobody is going to be put off voting SNP because of the smith report burning. Get a grip!

      Making a mountain out of a molehill. Seriously. AND playing into unionist hands.

    67. Luigi says:

      bookie from hell says:
      3 December, 2014 at 6:52 pm

      burning #smithreport snp

      could be a work of unintended genious

      MSM Scotland have been praising the smith report new powers

      Yet top news item now is 3 scots calling it garbage on youtube–no new powers–finaly getting the message across

      Yep, there’s no such thing as bad publicity – ask the master of the stunt himself, our ex-FM. Sometimes you have to be outrageous to get the attention of the BBC MSM (unless you are in the Labour party). At least the “vow is met, everybody’s happy, isn’t it wonderfull!” narative that the BBC were promoting is now dead in the water. A short suspension, a slap on the wrists and it will be all over and done with. Nothing to see here folks, move on!

    68. Grouse Beater says:

      Two people, ‘experts’ in Finance, Economics and Public policy, give warning that the Smith Commission proposals are a trap. Scotland should give the report a wide berth.

      Seconded.

    69. john king says:

      “Stunts like that ain’t going to increase our vote and will turn away some who may be swithering.”

      From that comment Heraldnomore it appears we have been so cowed for so long we are afraid to show a bit of fire and venom, are we SO unconvinced by our own argument we need to soft soap the undecideds?

      Since when did a grass roots movement show the delicate touch of diplomats?

      While SLAB and their tame propaganda team in Cochers, Chrichton, et al bestow on us the greatest opprobrium since the Munich trials, we are obliged to stand back and tut tut like blue rinse matrons at the silly antics of people who ACTUALLY BELIEVE IN WHAT THEY SAY?

      They are politicians, who could have imagined that politicians would have a political opinion? sheesh,
      GOD help us all when we turn on people who have the courage to stand up to these clowns and tel the how it really is.

      sorry but Im going to have to stop now, it would seem Im the only one who is angry abut this.

    70. boris says:

      I believe Scotland is a Nation state and such entities have a right to self government. The Renfrewshire Councillors beliefs mirror my own but their action’s burning copies of the Smith report only provided ammunition for the usual suspects which they then discharged on the Scottish government distracting it away from more important business. A few days on the naughty step will do the Councillors no harm. Do not let them make you mad. Get even not mad. Think before you act over the next 6 months and beyoand.

    71. Robert Louis says:

      Luigi,

      You have just made a VERY good point. Well said.

    72. X_Sticks says:

      Sorry, always O/T

      Bit late, but Live Independence broadcasting Andy Wightman on Land Reform NOW

      http://tinyurl.com/ll4wjbq

    73. Luigi says:

      The outrageous Daily Record, BBC Labour con trick that “the vow has been honoured” had to be answered in some big way. It was screaming out for it. And lo and behold, it happened.

      It is a pity a shredder wasn’t used instead of a burning (it would have been even more symbolic), but a very wee slap on the wrists is now required, just to prevent the unionist MSM from making a meal of it.

      No point in falling out over it.

    74. manandboy says:

      George Monbiot- unquestionably one of only a small group of genuine high quality journalist/writers in the UK. Another being our very own, the Rev Stuart Campbell.

      http://www.monbiot.com/2014/12/02/breaking-the-silence/

    75. Nana Smith says:

      @john king

      No John you are not alone. See my post 8.58am world speed reading record.

    76. Croompenstein says:

      @john – I’m with you mate I would burn it anaw I’m just thinking out loud. I’m just wondering why cooncilors who are elected officials of a political party would do what they did in the full knowledge that the unionists would scream louder than Fay Wray. We know the msm and unionists are duplicitous evil bastards I was just shocked that it was cooncilors it just gave them ammo to beat the SNP imo

      I would be the first to clap John Swinney if he burnt it ootside Holyrood but that isnae gonnae happen. I also feel they should be more angry but they’re in a bit of a catch 22 in that they sat on the myth commission and signed up to it. I’m not a politician john so I don’t know all the ins and outs of how the SNP are playing it but we can’t give the opposition the opportunity to a frenzied attack.

    77. heedtracker says:

      If you’re needing warmed up tonight, BBC R4 Moral Maze just booted up with VOTE NO or else David Aaronovitch kicking off “the morality of devo for Scotland” show morality with his “Scotland voted NO to independence but have found they’ve everything but actual independence” intro.

      The BBC, mental as anything. Can they really be trying to brainwash England too? yes:D

      Why are they defrauding Scotland with their Lord Smith farce and lying about it to the rest of our fellow teamGbists?

    78. caledonia says:

      I am done with the SNP if the counsellors are not reinstated

      We have been shafted by the uk government, the daily record and lied to by every one who fought for the union

      Yet now we are pandering to these very same people

    79. fred blogger says:

      Blair paterson
      i have already described the smith outcome ‘recommendations’ as a grievous insult.
      do you think it was done to provoke a negative reaction, i do.
      take sensible action is what i am saying.
      and yes MSM will make a mountain out of a molehill, and the snp mustn’t overreact to what has happened, either.
      stand firm and we shall win.

    80. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I am extremely dismayed by Nicola’s suspension of those councillors. The stunt could have been treated as a joke which most people would have seen it as or it could more sensibly have been ignored but it has now been turned into a debacle.

      Burning a piece of paper is burning a piece of paper. That’s all

    81. Valerie says:

      @ Grouse Beater, I’m sorry you have had such physical hassle, that is out of order.

      On you other point on SNP membership, you are spot on. Yes, many like me joined immediately after the referendum in an act of anger, rebellion and support. However, the new members are characterised as ‘more aggressive’, and going by my branch, I would say that’s accurate. There is no question the old SNP are a bit taken aback at how vocal and outspoken the new members are, they are sometimes stood catching flies, even tho they are very earnest.

      They need to remember they have created this new life, or their own monster.

      They have a deal of catching up to do, and they need to be in touch with the mood. I’m not resigning my membership, but I’m quietly simmering. Many like me don’t easily join parties, and when we do, we don’t sit quietly.

    82. Jim McIntosh says:

      ‘shredding the paper would have been better than burning’
      ‘you don’t present your opponents with an ‘open goal’

      What are lot talking about, have you been sleeping for the past 12 months. We don’t have to do anything to get them to write crap about us, they’ll do it anyway. At least with this stunt it’s not ‘when did you stop beating your wife?’ nonsense and we can give examples back to them from their side that’s far worse.

      Twitter and Facebook are full of people talking about ‘bayoneting the wounded’, ‘burning Salmond’s effigy’, ‘Nazi salutes from BT in George Square’, Glen Campbell tearing up the SNP manifesto in 2007 etc. It’s easy to see who’s winning this propaganda war, people are seeing through this and the papers are coming out badly.

      As far as – ‘Burning books has an unfortunate precedent and should be avoided at all costs’ – do you honestly believe ANY right minded person will equate this with Nazi book burning, get a grip.

    83. Dr Jim says:

      I know it’s not nice but if you type in your search engine Scottish Daily Rancid the first thing that comes up is the Official Daily Record Website….Not my fault!

    84. Ian Brotherhood says:

      The views on this YT footage of Murphy arriving at Grand Central Hotel are clicking up nicely.

      Katy Clark, and anyone else in Slab who is even entertaining notions of striking deals with The Murph should watch this and force themselves to envisage similarly robust demonstrations happening between now and May. Because Boney-M is gonny get similar treatment every time he shows his face, and anyone in his immediate orbit will have to suffer likewise.

      Would the good, decent, quiet people of Eastwood, in their leafy, well-scrubbed suburban enclave, welcome a Faslane-style camp right in the heart of their community? Fact is, Murph won’t even be there most of the time (even if he becomes Slab heid-bummer) but there’s no reason at all why a coalition of Yes activists can’t be. If the residents of that constituency get a flavour of how unpopular their MP really is, and get it loud and clear on a weekly basis? Won’t be long before they’re mightily hacked-off and they might – no, they WILL – think very carefully before voting him back in.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQjI4ihRCY8

    85. liz says:

      To the folk saying it was wrong to suspend the councillors – I agree.

      But I don’t think it’s a resigning matter yet, I also only just joined post 18th, it depends how it is dealt with from here on in.

      I think Nicola is on a hiding to nothing trying to placate Lab and the media- cos this has worked, there will be a lot more demanding that she disciplines this and that person.

      I think she made a mistake but she can learn from it.

      I am going to a local SNP meeting tomorrow and will say it is an over-reaction IMO.

      I would suggest that all those who are annoyed also say so.
      Let them know we HAVE been shafted by everyone and we need more fire (metaphorically), we will not win by being nice.

      There are times to play the game and other times to say – get over yourselves, burning one sheet of A4 was a statement which will be discouraged in the future – it is NOT a suspension matter.

    86. PictAtRandom says:

      Re the Smith Report:
      The main thing about it isn’t that it’ll devolve 15% or 20% more powers but rather that it’ll lead to more financial strife, suspicion and finger-pointing.
      The best publicity stunt would be to make a giant copy and stage a tug-o-war to pull it apart — Team Scotland on one side and jokers in Boris and Nigel masks on the other.

    87. yesindyref2 says:

      A noble self-sacrifice, and perhaps a neccessary one by the councillors, and a correct response from the SNP. Of course they have to suspend the councillors, their actions potentially “bring the party into disrepute”.

      Doesn’t stop some / most of the hierarchy probably having a good laugh.

    88. john king says:

      Croompenstien @ 8.10

      the trouble is with fearing attacks from the Zombies is that we are so afraid to attack them we can only sit and wait for the next attack instead of getting out there and blowing them out of the water, their arguments are non existent but they are the only ones we hear, its time we started making a pain in the arse of ourselves and ensuring the BBC cant ignore us,

      Didn’t we sit back and complacently wait for the inevitable withering counter attack from the YES campaign that would annihilate the UKOK arguments?
      STILL WAITING!!!!

      We need to see some passion ,some venom , we cant be the the good guys who go down in history as the valiant losers
      LOSERS ARE AFTER ALL JUST LOSERS!

    89. schrodingers cat says:

      Note from red tory ed milliband
      please cc all prospective Scottish Labour candidates……….

      ACHTUNG! ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS! DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKEN. IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS. ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.

    90. Bob Sinclair says:

      I don’t know what anyone else thinks, but to me the amount of abuse we were dealt during the Referendum seems as nothing compared to what has been getting thrown at us over the last couple of days.

      There is only one possible reason for this, we’ve got them on the run, they’re scared and under threat they’re lashing out at anything as anyone. The run up to the 2015 GE is going to be horrible if the media trolling we are enduring continues.

      We need to be 100% squeaky clean in the run up. Every action no matter how trivial which can be used to show us in a bad light will be dissected rehashed and magnified out of all proportion. I have absolutely no doubt now that a few establishment managed false flags are coming up on the horizon. So, I am asking, how do we deal with it?

    91. liz says:

      O/T but another damning report on BBC news. http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/node/5825/full

    92. yesindyref2 says:

      Valerie et al
      From the SNP website:

      Commenting after today’s Autumn Statement SNP Depute Leader and Treasury Spokesman Stewart Hosie MP said:

      “The Autumn Statement delivered by George Osborne today confirmed why the SNP are right to call for more powers for Scotland.

      “That is to give our Parliament the tools to grow the economy and improve the life chances of the Scottish people.

      “We saw today the consequences of London taking economic decisions for Scotland.

      This incidentally shows that Hosie is the best choice for Deputy Leader as it gives him more authority in the HoC – I voted for Constance. But it shows the SNP have this well in hand, and are doing it in their own fashion – which is the fashion of what is no longer a protest party, but a party of Government.

      Doesn’t stop us newbies doing our own thing, it wouldn’t surprise me if I’m thrown out of the party at some stage …

    93. Luigi says:

      Councillors Lawson, Mylet and MacLaren:

      That was a bloody stupid thing you did yesterday.

      I salute you.

    94. Bill McLean says:

      To those thinking of resigning membership of the SNP over the suspension of the councillors – don’t! In my opinion you will simply be handing a victory, to those unionists who made sure the film of this incident was made public and the media which we all so despise!
      I’m angry too and wish the SNP had not suspended the councillors, but the more I consider it the more I can see why it had to happen. Nicola can’t call for unity over the entire country, trying to be inclusive to tempt more people to support independence and also ignore this burning of the Myth report which has clear historical connotations, and remember, some of the devo-maxxers may take some time seeing through the rubbish presented in this report. No good us asking “but what about……” – that is not the point. They will always abuse people on the independence side of the argument and the media will encourage them and let them get away with it. We won’t get away with it, as seen, and that is why this was a daft thing to do —– in my opinion. Please don’t allow those sneaky unionist gets in the media force division on us!!!!

    95. JET JOCKEY says:

      If the 3 councillors had notified all sections of the media their intentions and had indicated a willingness to discuss why. How many newspapers would have had it on the front page ,and how many tv channels would have given them top billing on their news programmes. During the run up to the Referendum 4 farmers all ex NFU presidents with well over 200 years farming experience clearly indicated their support for the Yes campaign in the centre of Glasgow all the media must have known about their support for YES. It made page 17 in the Courier with a rather derogatory introduction from a shit for brain journalist.

    96. john king says:

      Bob Sinclair says
      ” how do we deal with it?”

      We rip them a new one,
      Its time to go on the offensive,
      we cant stay standing in ranks forever while they pick us off or were going down!

    97. yesindyref2 says:

      Bob Sinclair
      I’ve also noticed the Unionists getting nastier, and that’s great – there are “undecideds” watching.

      Personally I answer it with a sensible moderate reply, answering the question within, and ignoring the abuse. Or on the other hand, directly pointing out the abuse and “calmly” saying it’s unacceptable.

      They’re trying to provoke a reaction in kind to discredit us; it makes them very unhappy when they fail miserably 🙂

    98. Bob Sinclair says:

      John King,

      The only problem with that is we would be going on the offensive with both hands tied behind our backs. But, needs must & all that. I’m going to have to brush up on my scathing sarcasm & wit because that is about the only weapon we will be allowed to use.

    99. Bob Mack says:

      Interesting debate really is it not. What constitutes or makes something as precious as a document that needs salvation from the flames. The sum of knowledge? Irreplaceable manuscripts? Something like Mein Kampf? The true value I was always told lay in a documents ability to add something to the human race or experience, and in my humble opinion this document did. It for me, at least, defined treachery. This was the reply to my quest for self determination and to the hopes over 1.5 million souls who wanted nothing more than their freedom to choose their own way in life. It was a denial of those abilities to choose, and deliberately constructed to demean and dismiss those choices. Worth saving ? Not in my book, and I would have offered them (the 4 councillors) a match. I would gladly set fire to the Act of Union if I had the chance as well!!

    100. davidb says:

      On the trash burning issue. I was surprised and disconcerted at the Party overreaction to something so trivial. However, no publicity is bad publicity. I am reminded of the Empire Strikes Back video during the campaign. I am getting on in years and thought it was a bit puerile, but most of the teenagers I have engaged in the debate loved it. Each to their own.

      The burning story is making headlines. The video has had 6.5k hits. Our only real media outlet is still sites like youtube and facebook. The curiosity will lead some people to see our side of this underwhelming report. In a few weeks the incident will be forgotten. A suspension is not an expulsion. Nobody except the most vindictive Labourite journalist is going to notice when the councillors get reinstated. But our viewpoint has been flagged up in a media which seems to think we have gained from the No calumny.

      We new boys who want independence tomorrow have to see things in a slightly different perspective. It has taken the SNP over 70 years for our country to get within a few votes of independence. We are all agreed it is coming. So whatever disappointments, whatever decisions we disagree with, whatever our individual political slant, we have to stay united. Stay in the party and fight single mindedly and with the sole aim of delivering independence. Things will happen you inevitably disagree with. But keep the heid. We are going to win, but we have to be one voice. Don’t ever think about quitting until the only place you see a Union flag in Scotland is in a museum.

    101. heedtracker says:

      Great comedy Project Fear style from the Flipper tonight in rancid old red tory Guardian. Or, takes one to know one dearest imperial master. Still it worked on Scotland.

      “This was one of the most political economic statements I have ever heard. It was pure politics, right down to the jokes. However, look behind that and there is a lot more pain to come if the Tories are re-elected.

      When you look at the cold, hard facts and the cold economic numbers, they actually mean incomes are going to drop and services will be reduced. The cuts announced in working-age benefits will continue to make a big impact on people’s take-home pay when they are already squeezed. And consider what is happening in public spending; that is going to feed through to education.”

      Nelson from the Simpsons Flipper

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7wtNOkuHo

    102. bookie from hell says:

      who clairerob twitter?

      45 troll?

    103. Valerie says:

      @Yesindyref2 saw that statement earlier. I voted for Hosie, as I felt he has a solid CV.

      On the Myth paper burning. Cllr Lawson is a local councillor of some years experience, and is pretty well regarded by his constituents, voting him in on his hard work.

      I hope they are unsuspended quickly. It may not have been the most eloquently worded criticism of Myth, but we are all agreed it is a piece of garbage. Except fir the power on road signs, which is providing endless mirth on FB, as a vehicle for creative wording on said signs.

    104. thomaspotter2014 says:

      The burning fire of Independence is the one that they can’t put out.
      And it feels like they’re all bricking it
      Which is good.
      A lack of real putdown on the crappy’ Vow’ and all the nothings it will bring have been a sore point.
      More honest explanation of how useless and timewasting the whole Smith Commission has been and will be is what’s really needing dealt with and it hasn’t been by any party up till now.
      Get REAL.
      The councillors burning this piece of shit,while not being best advised has still somehow lanced the ‘this is the vow delivered’boil of stinking puss.

    105. Stoker says:

      @ John King (6.55pm).

      Well said John.

      I’ve already sent them a strongly worded email expressing my anger at their kow-towing to Unionists and doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to stand up for us.

      I will not reveal any of the details on here but i can assure you, i did not miss them and hit the wall.

      Yes, they have a duty to conduct themselves in a certain manner at all times, but they also have a duty to stand up for us and our rights.

      The burning of a few enlarged bits of paper was peacefully done and at worst could be classed as being in poor taste or silly.

      To suspend the 4 was a disgraceful capitulation and over-reaction to appease people who have cr@pped all over our country.

      The full matter could have been dealt with via a quiet word behind closed doors and a united public front shown.

      Absolutely sickening how these 4 have been treated.

      And all because of a bunch of greetin faced ("Tractor" - Ed)s who have sold this country down the swanny and kept thousands and thousands of its people trapped in poverty.

    106. Nana Smith says:

      Thursday’s National…

      https://twitter.com/newsundayherald

    107. ronnie anderson says:

      SNP not a proggresive party awe Kezia one step two step tickley under there.

    108. dougiekdy says:

      @ Capella

      “So much excellent comment – so little time!”

      Agreed – dunno where to start some days – magic innit:-)

    109. Findlay Farquaharson says:

      oh dear, scotlands shame shamed again, shame.

    110. galamcennalath says:

      I suspect that during the referendum campaign the Unionists learned one thing more than anything else … They realised we might actually choose independence. I suspect six months ago the London bubble in particular never thought it would be a close run thing. On Friday 5th Sept, they got the shock of their lifes as the polls came in for Yes.

      The more astute among them must realise it’s still game on given the polls for WM May 2015.

      First we get the demonisation, next we’ll get Project Fear 2 as May approaches.

      They may have some success, but it won’t be a winning strategy ever again.

    111. Stoker says:

      btw,

      I meant to add on my previous post to John King and for the benefit of those Unionist ("Tractor" - Ed)s who may be reading this and we know you do:

      I will STILL be giving my vote to the SNP at EVERY opportunity.

      We in the Yes Movement are allowed differences of opinion, unlike certain other movements, but at the end of the day we are all drawn together by our own belief and vow – that we WILL break Scotland free from the cesspit that is Warminster.

      That common bond, unlike the chains which attach us to Warminster, is unbreakable and grows stronger by the day.

      So GIRFUY.

    112. bowanarrow says:

      john king says:
      3 December, 2014 at 6:55 pm

      Anger doesn’t even come close to how I feel at the moment,
      I am appalled that Nicola Sturgeon has been so timid as to suspend those people for expressing something we all know,
      WE WERE SHAFTED,
      SCOTLAND WAS SHAFTED,
      No amount of sweet words and nice smiles to cameras will obscure that FACT,

      Nicola by all that is holy , if you value your job and your party,
      REVERSE THAT DECISION,

      I for one am about to resign my membership of the SNP if she does not reinstate those people forthwith and issue a strongly worded attack on the insult that Smith delivered on Scotland!

      I have never in 40 years been so ashamed of the SNP

      I think you would be only giving even more ammunition to the westminster government if we were shown to be burning anything, from flags to books..but…if we set a situation into play where lots of people burnt the report together, like the pass books in south Africa.

    113. Lochside says:

      Meanwhile Phase 2 of the ‘NO’ campaign that of softening up the electorate for the GE continues by the BBC and STV.

      Three councillors burn a non event report of ‘Recommendations’ by an unelected Tory Lord and suddenly faux outrage erupts across our scurvy msm.

      Some Red Tory crawls up said Lord’s rectum live on telly bleating about ‘Nazis’ and ‘book burning’. Glen Campbell with no hint of irony stands with ‘report’ in hand , in same spot at Holyrood where he personally shredded the SNP manifesto six years ago.

      Should he be suspended like those cooncillors?…yeah from a lamp-post along with every two faced lying ("Tractor" - Ed) trying to destroy democracy in this country.

      Does anybody really doubt what is happening at a higher tempo than ever? That of the msm attempting every trick in the book to destroy every last trace of independent narrative on our screens.

      E.G. tonight on the ‘Reporting Scotland’ (sic): Cameron Buttle, who also reported live the Loyalist riot in George Sq. (remember them burning saltires, our national flag, not bits of irrelevance paper burblings?)…a report that he later altered to a simple YES/NO confrontation…there he was reporting on ‘Scotland’ latest T.A. unit.

      Correction: Scotland and the North Irish Yeomanry (where is North Ireland?). A unit based on the hybrid fuck up of what was the famous Scots Greys. But this particular mob is recruited in Belfast, Ayrshire and Fife and their cap badge has that famous Scots/Irish combo of red and white!

      Why don’t they just call it the Loyalist Rangers Defenders Group? (L.R.D.G) …after all they’ve got highly armed jeeps designed to ‘get amongst the population’ as the double barrelled toff officer explained.

      Probably ideal for quelling Jacobite separatists mobs burning the ‘Smith report’ in George Sq….shoot the buggers down eh? What kind of recruits will join this team of latter day black and tans?

      Just to add to the true Brit narrative, a nice wee story about a Hebridean blend of Harris tweed and whisky..well I was chewing the carpet when I saw the ugly mug of Brian Wilson, the Unionist fanatic and mouthpiece for the nuclear industry. Yeah the very same, rattling his ill-fitting falsers about his latest ‘job’.

      As others have said, this is our last chance to go on the offensive…no more nicey nicey. Now is the time for the SNP to go on the offensive and fuck the BBC and its pals big time…no backing down, no apologies just counter attack time and time again.

      Otherwise, come another failed attempt to play the Westmonster game, I and thousands of others will resign from the party and find other ways of continuing the struggle.

    114. drawdeaddave says:

      I think we should take a leaf out of the councilors book, and all make effigies of the smith report, and post pictures of us burning it on social media, if it catches on it should grab some attention and let them know exactly what we think of the recommendations..

    115. bunter says:

      The National’s splash for tomorrow is great. I hope folk continue to buy it as deserves our support.

    116. manandboy says:

      THE UNIONIST PR BARRAGE – SURPRISED?

      Westminster thought they had everything covered in IndyRef. They also thought they had won.
      What they didn’t foresee was the reaction to defeat.

      By conventional wisdom,the Yes campaign supporters should have melted away in sorry dejection, their energy and enthusiasm haemhorraging into the soil. Defeated, they ought to have chucked it.

      Instead, as from nowhere, a new surge of power appeared in the form of new members joining the Yes parties, the SNP in particular, which has gone from 25,000 to nearly 95,000 members since in the 11 weeks since Sept 19th.
      Membership of the Greens and the SSP have also surged.

      This has been a bombshell to the Unionists, but it explains the PR BARRAGE of the SNP /Yes Alliance ever since.

      As David Cameron made clear in his appearance before the Liaison Committee a few weeks ago, the Unionist Establishment wants the political situation in the UK to “settle down”; to return to the way it was before IndyRef got going.
      Now they realise with horror that that is not going to happen.
      Not only that but Smith has made matters worse when it was supposed to make them better for the unionists.

      The Unionists thought it was over on the 19th. Now they realise it has only just begun. But having secured Scotland’s wealth, or so they think, they will be even more determined to hang on to it. And the only way to do that is to destroy the SNP by the method of trashing Scotland.

      If WM is successful in this plan, they expect that the electorate in Scotland will turn against the SNP and against the whole idea of Independence and turn back to Labour who will be waiting in the wings with their Red Tory Unionist colours on.

      As with Indy, the Unionist weapon of choice is propaganda.
      Complete control of the BBC and almost all the print media,
      will enable them to re-apply their Indy campaign of smear, fear, lies and bribery in a re-run of their winning formula.

      The carnage that 50 SNP MPs would create at Westminster is more than they can bear, so it’s a stop them at all costs
      campaign yet again.

      A Daily barrage is guaranteed. Make sure you’ve got your tin helmet handy – you’re gonna need it.

    117. HandandShrimp says:

      Presumably if Kezia wins she would be in the pole position for Labour at FMQ.

      OK, part of me wants her to win so I can see that week in week out.

    118. Bob Mack says:

      Last post disappeared. QUESTION ; If I handed any of the posters on this site ,the actual Treaty of Union, and a box of MATCHES ,what would you do?

    119. Brian Fleming says:

      “And people say WE’RE a bit harsh sometimes.” Aye, but they’re Labour, so that’s alright. They can do what they like. You’re nasty cybernats and have to behave like saints.

    120. Stoker says:

      @ drawdeaddave (9.44pm).

      Simple but brilliant idea, i like it.

      If i had the techno know-how i would do mine to the tune of
      Chumbawamba’s – Tubthumping.
      (i get knocked down but you aint ever gonna keep me down)

      Would be excellent to see your idea go ballistic all over Youtube in a similar manner as ‘The Ice Bucket Challenge’.

      Would teach them to keep their traps shut in future over such trivial matters.
      🙂

    121. Valerie says:

      Just on Ms Clark – its faintly amusing how Labour are copying almost every new approach by SNP. Nicola has just had her first Youtube Q & A session,and she has previously had a few FB sessions.

      Tonight Ms Clark was billed as doing a Q & A session on her page. I followed the link put up by the pro Indy page I was browsing, and glad I did, it was hilarious. There was one guy just doing sterling work on every single question that had obviously been handpicked, and I suspect he knew how to prevent them deleting his comments, because his looked like the only survivors.

    122. SqueuedPerspextive says:

      Did anyone else witness what I saw ?

      I am sure I saw a BBC headline “barnett ‘less important’ to scotland”

      When I search for it in google I can see the headline and links, but when I follow it the link leads to an article with a different title.

      Was this to cover up a ‘mistake’ ? After all was there not a promise that ‘Barnett Would Not Change’ ?

      Sorry if I can’t keep up with all the WM U-turns – my head is in a spin.

    123. bowanarrow says:

      Ive just uploaded a picture of me burning the smith report to my face book page in support of the councilors.

    124. john king says:

      Lochside says
      ” What kind of recruits will join this team of latter day black and tans?”

      Well that sent a shiver down my spine,
      I take it you think there’s more to this formation that meets the eye?
      I think your right,
      when I saw this new company on the news tonight I had a similar thought,
      I wouldn’t put it past the bastards,
      tanks in George Square again?

    125. SqueuedPerspextive says:

      @Bowanarrow
      Glad I read your second line. People should not burn the Smith Report to their face. People should not burn the smith report at all – it is bad for the environment.

      Recycle responsibly please.

    126. Bob Mack says:

      @ stoker @ drawdeaddave,
      We could offer a prize to the most creative incineration of the vile document that is the Smith Report!

    127. galamcennalath says:

      @Bob Mack

      BONFIRE!

    128. SqueuedPerspextive says:

      I should have added that I see the commission did this (as in recycle) with the Strathclyde Commission.

      Apologies for implying that it was done responsibly.

    129. john king says:

      Stoker says
      “If i had the techno know-how i would do mine to the tune of
      Chumbawamba’s – Tubthumping.
      (i get knocked down but you aint ever gonna keep me down)”

      Here ye go Stoker
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LODkVkpaVQA 🙂

    130. Free Scotland says:

      Last line of that e-mail: “… our numbers are at the bottom.”

      Should that be “our numbers are at rock bottom?”

    131. Grouse Beater says:

      Valerie:
      On you other point on SNP membership, you are spot on. Yes, many like me joined immediately after the referendum in an act of anger, rebellion and support.

      I appreciate all that you have had to say, Valerie.

      Once you show people they are living a life constrained by forces they cannot control, that they can be empowered, that self-determination is there’s by right, you can not then tell them to bottle it up, go home to watch television, or take cold showers until the government calls on them again.

      The people are the government now.

      The want their voices to make the difference, not show deference to a pile of pretendy powers wrapped up in another piece of classic Westminster window dressing.

      You might want to read The Bastardisation of the BBC on WordPress though it might make you angrier than ever!

    132. SquareHaggis says:

      Didn’t someone set fire to a paper on the 19th of September?

      Oh, sorry, wrong kind of paper I guess…

    133. john king says:

      Rant over,
      aff tae bed,
      night all.

    134. Grouse Beater says:

      There’s a disconnect here – English happily celebrate Guy Fawkes and his gunpowder intentions, burning a large bonfire with his effigy atop it, but we sanction folk for setting fire to an A4 sheet of paper.

    135. ronnie anderson says:

      @ John King theres nothing wrong with your wit nor sarcasim they’re pure from the heid n heart,& its long overdue that the SNP came out from the political polite bubble & backed the Grassroots movement, hence the reason I declined friends requests to join the SNP, those Councillors expressed the feelings of the vast majority of the people .

    136. SqueuedPerspextive says:

      @BobMack
      I would repeal article 3 and demand a re-ratification of the Treaty.

      It was a treaty which has since been usurped and passed into UK law despite the fact that the Articles themselves (e.g. articles XIV, XV, XVIII, XXII) refer repeatedly to “this Treaty” and neither parliament participated in discussing the terms and conditions of the agreement. It was not given Royal Assent.
      The Treaty was then put before the Scottish and English parliaments in succession and ratified, confirmed and approved by each separately by its own Act.This did not however and could not make the English Act the sole constituent of the Union, as the parliament of England had no legislative power in relation to Scotland.

      Ratification did not convert the Treaty into an Act or Acts, nor are there words in either Act which incorporated the Treaty or any part thereof into Scots or English domestic law, as is now sometimes done with international conventions. Ratification implies that the Treaty had been made already and expressed that it had been finally accepted and was beyond alteration.

      However Article XXV laid down that all laws and statutes in either kingdom so far as they were contrary to or inconsistent with the terms of the Articles or any of them, were from and after the Union to cease and become void and be so declared by the respective parliaments of the kingdoms. No action seems to have been taken by either parliament under this power.

    137. Tam Jardine says:

      It’s a strange reading of the letter in my mind – seems to me like a couple of labour would be politicians have woken up to the tsunami approaching. Katy Clark is not the answer any more than Kezia is but at least they grasp something fundamental needs to change for Labour.

      I felt a wee pang for Kezia because I’m such a softy and feel sorry for people. It’s a weakness of mine.

      If she had taken my advice during the indyref and crossed the floor she would be able to breath fresh air with a clean conscience instead of playing second fiddle to a right wing warmonger with a hard-on for nuclear weapons.

      As for the SNP councillors’ actions – they burnt a thing that represents an insult to the people of Scotland so I see nothing whatsover wrong with it. Parallels with Nazi Germany are idiotic and predictable.

      I well appreciate the party leadership being put in a difficult, no-win position but sending a message to the complacent 55% (and to anyone in the 45% Who is any doubt) that these proposals are derisory is no bad thing.

      It has been helpfully proliferated by the media – would a 1000 yessers in George Square protesting against this betrayal have even been reported?

    138. Paula Rose says:

      Creative incineration – one of those hot air balloon thingies?

    139. ronnie anderson says:

      And Jim Mc Governs MP contabution at the Scottish Grand Committee ,re the national socialists burning of Jewish books ah hope naebody breaks a windy or it will be reported as the Night of the Kristallnacht.

    140. Capella says:

      @ Jim Macintosh
      “do you honestly believe ANY right minded person will equate this with Nazi book burning, get a grip.”
      Judging by the media frenzy there are plenty of WRONG minded people making exactly that connection. If you’re going to indulge yourself in gesture politics, film it and upload it to the internet, at least consider how the MSM will use it.
      Is it really worth the few hours of fame reinforcing the meme that the SNP are “blood and soil nazis”?
      Of course Nicola is right to suspend them – for sheer stupidity if nothing else.
      Obviously the media trolls are aiming to encourage resignations from the SNP. either because it contains such idiots, or because the FM suspends them.
      You get a grip. Let this go. It’ll soon blow over.

    141. Rock says:

      liz,

      “There is no point in trying to placate Lab politicos who scream about the slightest thing – mountain getting made out of mole hill.”

      Yes Scotland made a terrible mistake in boycotting W O S to placate the unionists.

      They should have robustly defended W O S for exposing the hypocrisy of the Tory MP (or MSP).

      The SNP must not placate anyone on any issue but always give a reasoned and principled response if it wants to remain Scotland’s favourite party.

      Otherwise it will alienate its own supporters.

    142. Free Scotland says:

      To all teachers of Modern Studies and History:

      That e-mail should be exploited for the valuable classroom resource it undoubtedly is. Forget about saving paper, make multiple copies, laminate it, and put it on display boards in classrooms and corridors.

    143. Bob Mack says:

      @ Paula Rose,
      Naw! There;s enough hot air in it already!

    144. Balaaargh says:

      @Bob Mack

      I would frame it.

      Then I would have all Secondary schools across Scotland visit the National Museum of Scotland once a year with their S4 pupils to see a permanent exhibit on the history of Scotland. Show them the good, show them the bad, show them how the people survived but never prospered under GB rule until they left.

      At the end, There, in a darkened room with low lighting that they use to prevent decay, would be the framed act. Underneath would be a simple plaque,

      “This is the actual piece of paper that bound Scotland for 300+ years. The people of this small country had no democratic right to vote for or against their binding, the decision was made by Lords and landowners who felt they were better than everyone else. From now on, every time you are presented with a ballot paper, remember the rights you take for granted and remember there are always those who seek to take them away.”

    145. Bob Mack says:

      @ Ronnie Anderson,
      You will be all right with McGovern. He was a glazier to trade!

    146. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      completely O/T

      I have just watched the BBC Scottish News with a degree of incredulity
      They announced that Celtic beat Partick Thistle 1 – 0 but neglected to report that Alloa Athletic came from 2 -0 down to knock Rangers out of the cup 3 – 2.

      Astounding

    147. Robert Louis says:

      Wise up folks, it looks like we have some agents provocateurs on here tonight, trying to stir up anti SNP sentiment. Don’t fall for it.

      Whilst we all have a view on ‘burnings’, and many tongue in cheek, we need to watch out for those who seek to spread division amongst us. There have been some very sophisticated trollings going on on some sites recently.

      Meanwhile, back in the real world, and of much more importance, I see The National newspaper, has a truly excellent front page. If you haven’t bought it yet, or subscribed, then now is the time to do it.

      The front page, is here;

      https://twitter.com/ScotNational

      George Osborne has never looked so good 🙂 🙂

      Now finding the National to be a right good paper every day, and likely to improve with time.

    148. Dave Robb says:

      All those getting at the SNP leadership – let’s remember the last in 1000 years how often the Scots threw away good military positions and grabbed defeat from the jaws of victory. Either we stabbed each other, betrayed our own side (Wallace) – or else got goaded into doing something stupid in the battle (Pinkie, Neville Cross and Flodden) as examples.

      So some councillors didn’t think it through, and just like in football they’ve been booked for a retaliatory over the top tackle, after being clogged from behind. The management can hardly be expected to defend them, however that might appeal to the fans. They’ll be back, and play smarter. Also, the majority who don’t like the Smith Report, like footie fans, will understand

      Keep the focus, stay with the SNP until after the election, win the game.

      I’ve been very eco-concious – I downloaded the report, read it, re-read it and consigned it to the “trash” bin with my other unwanted junk. It certainly needs binning, but publicity stunts need to be thought through. I did keep the detailed breakdown of submissions – plenty of ammo there!

    149. Balaaargh says:

      We’re damned if we do, we’re damned if we don’t.

      Doesn’t mean you have to do something to be damned for. As elected representatives, they should have known this would be the result.

      They would have been far better using it to display their Council in a positive light by showing how kerbside recycling can produce useful results like, say, recycled toilet paper. Or shredding it to be used as a filler material for manure, for example. There are a couple of nice, smiley photoshoots you can get out of those…

    150. Capella says:

      @ Robert Louis
      Agreed. To both.

    151. Bob Mack says:

      @ SQUEUEDPERSPEXTIVE,
      YOUR PERSPECTIVE IS BANG ON, AND VERY WELCOME. THANKS.

    152. twenty14 says:

      President Smith – If we burn you burn with us (Raises hand, parts fingers and whistles )

    153. Robert Louis says:

      Capella at 1043pm,

      You make some very good points. Nicola is bound by the party rule book, and the SNP are a party of government, so need to do things as correctly as possible. My only gripe is the way they handle the press – but that’s just my opinion.

      I have absolute faith in the SNP leadership, and so do not question their decision to suspend the councillors.

      Lots of frankly ridiculous suggestions being made here tonight. Seems that some here want to make more of a fuss, than the unionists or their puppet media and BBC.

      Maybe we should all focus our efforts on winning for the SNP in under 7 months, instead of helping our opponents.

      Meanwhile (and yes I am shamelessly plugging it), The National has a great front page for tomorrow, which everyone must see. Seems like they are going to pull the Tory Autumn statement to pieces.

      https://twitter.com/ScotNational

    154. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Bob Mack ah bit late in the day wie your information on McGovern being a glazier, did you know the Rev needed a windy in Oct lol.

    155. Bob Mack says:

      THIS SITE IS THE SAFETY VALVE FOR FRUSTRATION AND DISSAPOINTMENT. MOST OF THE CONTRIBUTORS ARE INTELLIGENT,THOUGHTFUL,AND PATRIOTIC.ONCE IN A WHILE IT IS GOOD TO LET OFF STEAM.I DO NOT THINK SOME OF THE SENTIMENTS EXPRESSED ARE ANTI S.N.P,(AND REMEMBER NOT ALL WHO WANT INDEPENDENCE ARE S.N.P.VOTERS) BUT REFLECT MORE ON THE UTTER INJUSTICE OF THE MEDIA SITUATION, AND EVEN THOUGH THERE IS A BALANCE FORMING TO A SMALL EXTENT,ANNOYANCE AT THE POWERFUL MEDIA OPPOSITION REMAINS A CONSTANT PARTNER.

    156. Doug Daniel says:

      Balaaargh: “We’re damned if we do, we’re damned if we don’t.

      Doesn’t mean you have to do something to be damned for.”

      That’s one of the few sensible comments here.

      I’ve been pretty pissed off at all the folk going “but what about when that effigy got burnt?” and “but what about when Glen Campbell ripped up an SNP manifesto?” and such like today on Twitter and Facebook, and I’m dismayed to see it here too. Folk talking as if these four are martyrs, who bravely stepped into battle to defend Scotland’s honour, when in reality they just pulled a stupid prank.

      Whataboutery: politics at its lowest.

      I remember when “but the other lot do it too!” was used as a rebuttal to the ridiculous assertion that there was something uniquely nasty about online independence supporters. But now it seems to be getting used as justification for pulling the kind of daft stunts you’d expect from a bunch of politics students. Are people seriously suggesting that there was absolutely nothing wrong with this, and that it’s perfectly reasonable behaviour from four councillors?

      If this had been Labour councillors burning copies of the White Paper, we’d all be up in arms. But no, it’s pro-indy folk who did it, so the blinkers go on and we go “yeah, but what about the things that lot did?”

      In a nutshell, this is the kind of childish nonsense I’d expect from Willie Young, the Labour councillor who tried to ban SNP ministers from council buildings. I do not expect SNP councillors to act like Willie Young. And for that reason (and for needlessly giving the press an easy pot shot at Nicola so early in her leadership), they deserve to be given a metaphorical boot up their arses.

      (I’d be surprised if they actually got chucked out – the suspension will be lifted soon enough.)

    157. sinky says:

      Hear hear Doug

    158. Roughian says:

      Dave McEwan Hill.
      Just about to say the same. Celtic bad Rangers good SBC keep digging that hole. I support neither team. As far as Renfrewshire Councillors go, they should grow up. We want to be the side that is above petty actions leave that to SLAB and WM. Protest yes but let’s be professional how we do it. If they were able to attract TV coverage they should have thought it out better. I bet they were conned by TV company into their actions along the lines off “we’ll get you on to prime time telly if you stand on your head, and sing Waltzing Matilda whilst juggling six mutton pies”.
      Don’t fall into the trap folks.

    159. SqueuedPerspextive says:

      @BobMack
      Thank you for your kind endorsement, but I am remiss, I should have given due credit for my argument to it’s (sadly now deceased) author: David M Walker, Regius Professor of Law in the University of Glasgow from 1958-1990

      For those aspiring to embolden Scotland’s next Enlightenment and Emancipation I recommend the following reading…

      http://www.journalonline.co.uk/Magazine/52-6/1004238.aspx

    160. Bob Mack says:

      @RONNIE ANDERSON
      No, did not know of Rev’s predicament. May have been able to negotiate a good deal. McGovern is my cousin God help me !!

    161. SqueuedPerspextive says:

      @BobMack
      Apologies if the following comment is unkind. I am unsure of the mechanism by which you submit is unknown to me. I would like to quote a good friend of mine who, in response to my capitals only reply to a question, asked ‘Why are you shouting?’

      If, however it is deliberate, I confess I find it distracting.

    162. polscot says:

      I think the Rev is being unfair. Ke$ha delivered a stunning performance in her romantic duet with Pitbull, if I recall correctly, the refrain is “She’s going down, I’m yelling ‘Timber'”.

    163. Grouse Beater says:

      Ronnie: did you know the Rev needed a windy in October

      Chuckle. 🙂

    164. It just goes to show you they are not interested in anybody but themselves. SLabour that is.

      One weeks holiday beckons. Give it to the unionists.

    165. Lenny Hartley says:

      Daily retard has a poll on whether there should be another Indy referendum currently 91% yes 9% no

      http://www.scotlandnow.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/poll-should-another-independence-referendum-4643675

    166. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Bob Mack so it is a true saying ,you can choose your friends but cant choose your family lol,ah take it you,ll be having your christmas Dinner in your own hoose.

    167. Grouse Beater says:

      Doug Daniel:
      Whataboutery: politics at its lowest. If this had been Labour councillors burning copies of the White Paper, we’d all be up in arms.

      I have to point out that that’s ‘whataboutery’ in reverse. 🙂

    168. Bob Mack says:

      @SqueuedPerspextive,
      No it is quite all right. The problem lies in a temperamental caps on button which occasionally decides of it’s own volition not to budge. I hope it is going to be replaced this Christmas with a shiny new model. It is extremely temperamental and will often function very well, however tonight there have been some problems!! Still it has not detracted from my enjoyment at the many opinions I have read tonight.

    169. Grouse Beater says:

      Doug Daniel:
      they deserve to be given a metaphorical boot up their arses.

      Said Father Ted. 🙂

    170. Dr Jim says:

      Professionally outraged, it’s a fairly new art form usually reserved for when a “so called celeb” does something silly and those particular people can be “AGHAST” There are a ton of adjectives to describe this behaviour and i wont dignify any of them…On another note Danny Alexander’s 2 excuses for devolution of Corporation tax to NI..1 Land Border 2 Other difficulties, em, peace process..So confirmation then that the UK Government DO give in to terrorism even when they’re not asked….I’ve left my bombs and guns in my other coat, but can i still qualify for some devolution please?…There that should do it..

    171. Bob Mack says:

      @ Ronnie Anderson,
      I could probably ask to go to his for xmas, and end up with a publicly funded dinner if you get my drift.

    172. Dr Jim says:

      Re the caps thing i had trouble like that a while back but now have a shiny new computer lightning quick and speedy,except the damn thing’s American and tells me i’ve spelled everything incori incroct..wrong..Aah Well..

    173. Lesley-Anne says:

      Well if memory serves me right this e-mail from these two prospective Scottish Labour candidates supporting Katy Clark, if successful in its intent, will result in a Labour M.P. becoming leader, Murph the Smurph, and a Labour M.P. becoming deputy leader of the Labour Branch office.

      Don’t you just love it when a plan comes together?

      For a party that appears, apparently, to want to prove to the Labour members, well those who are STILL members anyway, that Labour London does not control Labour Branch office (Scotland) they sure are going about it a real funny way.

      I wonder how Labour (London H.Q.) would go about things if they were serious about confirming they controlled Labour Branch office (Scotland)?

    174. Valerie says:

      Way off topic, BUT, just rad that a new Scottish and North Irish Regiment based in Edinburgh called the Yeomanry is recruiting? Thought it was a bit odd this is coming now?

      They are described as light infantry and work from stripped down landies with guns on top!

    175. Doug Daniel says:

      “I have to point out that that’s ‘whataboutery’ in reverse”

      Not sure what reverse whataboutery is, but that’s just a simple call for a bit of consistency and self-awareness.

    176. Grouse Beater says:

      Dr Jim: except the damn thing’s American

      One of the earliest things discovered using a US equipped computer was, while it recognised CIA it refused to recognise MI6 and KGB. Made it a devil of a task writing spy thrillers.

    177. Grouse Beater says:

      Valerie: Scottish and North Irish Regiment based in Edinburgh called the Yeomanry

      Also heard the announcement – a clash of cultures – and yeomanry outdated misogyny.

    178. Bob Mack says:

      @Valerie,
      Not off topic at all. Some posters on this thread already mentioned same. “Liking” to Black and Tans. Recruiting from N Ireland and Yorkshire and Fife. Light patrol vehicles ,heavily armed. Just to protect us from terrorism I suppose ,in response of the number of incidents we have here in Scotland!. Not comfortable about this at all speaking for myself, but will watch situation carefully. Want to see if they are intended to patrol in public view then will decide one way or other what to make of it

    179. Grouse Beater says:

      Doug Daniel: Not sure what reverse whataboutery is…

      Deriding a technique of argument whilst unwittingly demolishing once own by employing the same technique.

      The SNP is dealing with almost 100,000 individuals from all walks of life, many smarter, more accomplished, and more experienced than some senior SNP MSPs. Being treated as if choirboys out of line is old school Labour politics.

      An example of cack-handed discipline will jolt the new membership unused to staying in line to avoid controversy.

      You cannot control a 100,000 from physical dissent when you’re the few in an executive. Next thing to happen is the executive will decline invitations to attend rallies in case somebody curses.

      The executive had better ‘wise up’ soon, as my American friends say.

    180. boris says:

      Nae voters gather to protest at burning of the Smith report by Renfrewshire Councillors

      http://www.break.com/video/sheep-protest-2506795

    181. boris says:

      Valerie. The changes reflect the outcome of the recent strategic review. The massive decrease in the regular army brings with it a need to create units using reserve forces. The difficulty is recruitment. No one is signing up to the reserve despite major expenditure on advertising. The yeomanry were formally cavalry troops that converted to tank regiments at the start of WW1. But there are very few tanks available hence the need to revert back to being cavalry. The problem is there are no horses so that next best thing is to provide them with clapped out land rovers, (with a bit of protective welding up top) so that they will be enabled to discharge their former role as forward recce troops. They won’t gel and the move will hit the skids soon.

    182. Chic McGregor says:

      From never having heard of Kezia a few months ago, to having seen her a couple of times now on telly, I think she is quick witted and a good debater, but suffers from the general SLAB failing of thinking that you can fool most of the people most of the time even if what you are saying is inconsistent mince.

      A stair-heid rammier with O-grades.

      Pretty sure she could take Curran or Lamont, but big picture stuff? I remain to be convinced.

      Kind of a female equivalent of Anas Sarwar.

    183. Chic McGregor says:

      @Grouse Beater
      “One of the earliest things discovered using a US equipped computer was, while it recognised CIA it refused to recognise MI6 and KGB. Made it a devil of a task writing spy thrillers.”

      A real enigma ;

      Just ask the Poles.

    184. macduff says:

      Oh what a big deal about the burning of the smith report !!!!!! So its ok for the people of East Sussex to blow up a hugely disgusting effigy of Alex not to mention an mp tearing up a copy of tye white paper ….its understandable that offence was taken at this by some of us who agree its worthy of being destroyed ..but nicola was put into a very awkward position there as those unionist whippersnappers are jyst waiting for the slightest thing to pounce onto the SNP and the Yes movement …its so obvious …they are green (not Harvie green) with envy because they know the Snp are right up there making good for Scotland even against strict budgets and dreadful adversity at every turn…they truly are the good guys ..never mind aboot this daft incident there are many other important issues to be getting on with ..that Stv and BBC should be discussing The VOW ….nae chance ….of that eh! ?..top marks though to John Swinney for showing theGideon person how to sort out Stamp duty !!!!!! He stole his ideas ….oh how small and stupid he now looks….finally I think as angry as some might be with nicola over the burning thing …she had to be seen to act in a professional and politically correct manner in her position of Scotland’s First MInister…..she is on our side dontt forget that……..pity the silly burgers didnt throw a copy of thd retard in for guid measure…ha ha I can say that….cos..im not nicola .

    185. Macart says:

      There’s only one thing anyone need know about the current crop of Labour representatives – they don’t play well with others. They don’t work well with anyone because, well mainly just because and particularly if the other happens to be a member of the SNP.

      They have no concept of working in common cause or doing something for or with others simply because its the right thing to do. Everything has to have a vote or personal gain involved. The pursuit of the big chair is the be all and end all. Their tribal hatred of the SNP in particular (and from what I’ve seen of Ms Dugdale, there’s no change there then), is an anchor to progress for the whole of the Scottish electorate.

      In short, does it really matter who Labour vote in as branch and asst. branch manager? Every FMQs will still be the same as every other for the past seven years – SNP baaad. Time to change the record and send Labour to the naughty step for an indefinite period.

    186. manandboy says:

      The National is not being nice to George Osborne today, but then why would they after his atrocious performance since 2010 and his pathetic ‘Autumn Statement’ which is just a warm up for GE15.
      If Osborne worked for me, I’d sack him, while regretting I didn’t do it years ago.

    187. The Isolator says:

      Folks,it’s all they have left.Faux indignation to hide their burning hatred of the SNP.There will be gihugeous amounts of similar episodes in the run up to the general election. Make no mistake they will ramp this p£%h up in the new year.

      Nicola had to condemn because she is fit to govern.Role reversal and it’s a wee bitty fun.However what the liars and the gousters forget or choose to ignore is the reality.The SNP are a reasonably popular government 7 years in and still battling hard(within the rules) for the people.

      During the referendum campaign the Yes movement kept their cool in the teeth of the storm.They didn’t expect that,the SNP were fighting on several fronts.The GE however is but one.Onwards and upwards.

      I hope that as a new day dawns in May we will have taken another massive step forward to the ultimate goal.

      The Smith Commission was always going to be set up regardless of the outcome in September..it’s a stalling tactic that Westminster employ in times of trouble.I’m sure they didn’t expect the SNP to come within a million miles of it as per Constitutional Convention.That was a trap and so was this albeit an obvious one, however the SNP have set a few further down the line I’m sure.

    188. manandboy says:

      The crime in the paper burning incident was to show disrepect to our Unionist masters, in this case Lord Smith primarily, but also disrespect to the Unionist Establishment, both here in Scotland as well as down south.

      The fact that Civic Scotland has essentially trashed the Smith Commission/WM Cabinet proposals, is neither here nor there for unionist tribal sentiment.

      Unionism remains one of Scotland’s biggest challenges.

    189. john king says:

      Robert Louis says
      Wise up folks, it looks like we have some agents provocateurs on here tonight, trying to stir up anti SNP sentiment. Don’t fall for it.”

      OMG its the reincarnation of McCarthyism,
      who the hell is trying to stir up anti SNP sentiment?
      They did that ALL BY THEMSELVES,
      Righteous anger is not yet proscribed Robert,
      and there are no Agents, no provocatuers, (which if you don’t mind me saying was pretty offensive)

      There is however righteous anger at the obsequiousness of the party I have supported all my adult life who are being vilified daily for imagined or fabricated slights meanwhile we are subject to the cackling idiots of the Labour party catcalling and yelling in our faces with megaphones (in my case quite literally, you know who I’m talking about Murphy)while being protected by a media completely devoid of any sense of balance or fairness.

      The litany of outrageous behaviour by the SLAB before the referendud (not a spelling error) does not require me to list their crimes,

      Everyone here has lived and endured the brickbats and vilification while we have had to do the good christian thing and smile while the lions rip us apart in the Colosseum while the foolish and downright nasty sit and enjoy the spectacle,

      We stood unflinching in the face of relentless attack and smiled, while we waited for the unstoppable counter attack from our leaders,
      and we waited and waited and it never came, we were left naked and defenceless while the thugs of the BNP marched intop George Square and beat up kids who really believed in the YES campaign, and they let us/them down so badly, I don’t think I can forgive them,

      I sat in my car driving (slowly) through Glasgow in the FREEDOM RALLY and it was THE most inspiring thing I have ever seen in my life and I will be forever grateful I was there,

      The ocean of people who lined the route cheering and waiving Saltires , people hung from high flats up from Glasgow Cross waiving yes banners, the groundswell of positivity was so humbling and emotional for me at times I couldn’t see to drive for tears,
      I NEVER FELT MORE SCOTTISH than I did then,

      The mantra from Nicola Sturgeon is that “We must hold these peoples feet to the fire”,
      so far all I can see is they are holding their own feet to the fire of our dreams which are being reduced to ashes while they warm their toes!

      We have to stop being the good guys here, we did that and got shat on from a high height,
      Those bastards are laughing at us and don’t even feel the need to hide their disdain for what they see as a campaign of cowards who will not get down in the gutter and slug it out with them in case we get our clean consciencies dirty,

      We are not Ghandi
      that worked then it wont work now, they are much more sophisticated in their methods of controlling the public’s perceptions than they were then,
      They used negativity to great effect, we need to fight fire with fire and show the UK up for what it really is, George Monbiot is a classic example of what I mean, reading his work fills you with a burning anger,

      What we are in RIGHT NOW is a fight for our very existence,
      NOTHING LESS.

      I for one have no intention of playing a bit part in Brig O Doon
      to entertain those fuckers from London who come up to their private Grouse moors sweeping by the unwashed sweatie socks in their blacked out windowed limousines!

      so Agent provocatuers?
      nope not that I can see!

    190. Haggis Hunter says:

      …..and there they go again, the party that says we want to listen and not go on about the SNP, go on about the SNP.
      They are incapable of change.

      O/T BBC going on about nazi nats burning Smith commission papers, erm, why was there a news blackout about No supporters giving the nazi salute and burning Yes shops in Glasgow?

    191. caz-m says:

      FREE THE RENFREWSHIRE FOUR!

    192. john king says:

      Yknow
      I had every intention of getting up this morning and reverting back to being the court jester,
      SO MUCH FOR THAT THEN EH?

      Do you know what I think every time I see that little ginger rodent Danny Alexander?
      THIS
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adGbbL_FSrc

    193. joe kane says:

      If the Smith Commission had recommended devolving full control over the DWP to the Scottish Government then I might have been upset at its symbolic burning by SNP Councillors.

      It shows how much Scottish Labour are now no better than your average perma-rage Daily Mail reader whose dial is stuck at hardly intelligible or understandable outrage at the least wee insignificant thing.

      Why aren’t Scottish Labour outraged at Scotland not being given the power and right to permanently get rid of foodbanks or Atos?

      We’ve the power to get rid of the injustices of Westminster’s neoliberal reforms that have destroyed the Scottish welfare state, but Scottish Labour choose instead to be outraged at people who cannot stand by and read stories of women with blood clots in their head wandering the streets of Glasgow scavenging for food to eat. They want to do something about it but Scottish Labour and Westminster are preventing them.

    194. Cag-does-thinking says:

      O/T but something I haven’t seen the MSM run with. So Gideon has “surprised everyone” by reforming stamp duty from midnight. Am I right that this is one of the very few tax raising powers that Scotland has decided to actually vary from April 2015? So does this mean that there will be a window for the wealthy to sell sell sell under the UK new rules until April thus undermining the Scottish Government’s attempt to establish it’s own tax regime? He could have brought the revisions in from April and then it would have been two seperate systems but in this instance it directly challenges the changes already announced by the SG for four months. And we know slippery customers take advantage of these kind of loopholes. So did he just create one deliberately to disadvantage the Scottish proposals sort of accidentally on purpose and does this suggest that the treasury is determined to have the final say on what happens in the UK even when it has devolved these things to other parliaments.

      On the SNP cooncil folks, imagine if they’d asked us here what they should do? I certainly would have told them it was a crap idea and would cause the shit storm it has completely moving the focus from the deficiences of Smith and particularly those last minute changes which the MSM would rather we didn’t ask to much about. Not so much an own goal as a deliberate back pass to the opposing team at an important time in the game. I would think rather in the way of 101 uses for a dead cat we should think of creative ways to use the Smith report as we have the imagination here to get the humour back into the situation but it plays right into the hands of BBC who can focus on this out of all proportion to it’s impact.

    195. caz-m says:

      Have Scottish Labour suspended the Dundee Labour MP Jim McGovern for comparing SNP supporters with “Nazis” at yesterday’s Scottish Affairs Committee meeting?

      McGovern quote from the Herald:

      Speaking at the Commons Scottish Affairs Committee, the Dundee West MP said: “I have quite often read books and followed documentaries about pre-war Germany, and one of them was where … the National Socialist Party, which became obviously the Nazis, burned the books”.

      If you are in Dundee West, please make McGovern become an Ex MP.

    196. Macart says:

      Peaceful political protest is a right of all democratic and free societies. People have marched, had rallies, waved placards, chained themselves to fences, trees, each other. They’ve done much more in terms of such protest over the years. Some wacky, some satirical, some powerful, some stupid and all heart felt

      These people harmed no one when they burnt that document. They made their feelings known about a series of recommendations which we all know to be an appalling charade acted out by political parties and the self interested. Labour by the way, are a shower of howling hypocrites if they don’t recall the marches, struggles, acts of public defiance and demonstrations of the people who brought them to the power they now enjoy today.

      They should take a good hard look in the mirror, they really, really should. For they have become the very thing that their founders marched and publicly demonstrated against.

    197. Brian Powell says:

      joe kane

      Labour oppose powers given to the Scottish Government because they see it as benefiting the SNP.

      They want to say they did it, that it was Labour who introduced some benefit. In the meantime the voters and constituents are of little consequence.

    198. Famous15 says:

      People here wanted YES to put the boot in. The biased Media would have loved that.

      Why?

      Just look at what the media and Anas Sarwar made of councillors burning the made up front page of the Smith Report. Sarwar “You cannot go around burning things” Others however squeezed the burning of anA4 sheet into the bonfires of books by the nazis. In these circumstances to get angry plays into their hands. I for one have the self control,now that I am older,to trust our leadership and not give them a hard time.

      We are social democrats ,not anarchists.

    199. caz-m says:

      Another Margaret Curran interview on BBC Scotland and still no further forward. That wummin has got to be the most incompetent MP ever to enter Westminster. She knows absolutely nothing about economics or anything else, yet Scottish Labour keep putting her forward for interviews on government finance.

      She turns every interview into SNP rants and the reporters have to practically throttle her to get her to stop going on about the SNP.

      C’mon the good people of the East End of Glasgow, Curran has done absolutely nothing for you, vote for the SNP candidate in the 2015 GE, make Curran an Ex Glasgow Labour MP.

    200. Snode1965 says:

      Official, the Smith farce already being dismantled. Devolution of work program was meant to start when current contract runs out. Yesterday Westminster extended the contract for another year! When taken to task, the reply was that it had been agreed in August, before the Ref. We ain’t getting f@ck all powers folks.

    201. Robert Louis says:

      It is becoming clear, is it not, that the unionists both in Scotland and London, have realised their ‘win’ was so narrow as to have been a technicality, given the hubris in the media we are seeing against wings, the SNP and Scottish Government.

      Scared by the gargantuan upsurge in support for the SNP (on the cusp of 100,000) and the other pro indy parties, the unionist machine has gone back into pre-referendum propaganda mode – an explicit example being the over the top cringe worthy worship of the alleged ‘collosus’ of Scottish politics, Gordon Brown, by the propagandist state controlled BBC last week.

      The simple fact is, that unionists are feart. The first battle was narrowly lost to unionists, but we are ALL still here, and stronger than before.

      It is ironic, is it not, given the prospect of possibly over 30 SNP MP’s going to Westmindden next year, that in many ways, the unionists will get what they wanted. David Cameron, the man with NO democratic mandate whatsoever to run Scotland, repeatedly begged Scotland to stay, over and over again. Well, here’s the news, since we have to stay, we’ve decided to take the fight on to YOUR home turf, Davey boy – we are quite literally coming to get you.

      Come May 2015, Mr.Cameron will have his wishes come true. Forced to stay, we will, via the SNP, be en-masse setting up camp on the green benches of Westmidden. In your face, you might say.

      For the anti Scottish unionist cabal, and their ‘scottishey but’ self serving puppets, there is surely some kind of moral tale here, something along the lines of ‘be careful what you wish for’.

      Make no mistake, the battle has started for Westminster, and it will take the same resolve we had for the referendum, in order to make sure we send lots of SNP MP’s to London. In some ways, it will be akin to divine retribution – or more colloquially, GIRFUY Westminster!

      Let’s cut the cr*p, and make sure it happens. 🙂

    202. joe kane says:

      Thanks Brian Powell.

      The Smith Commission is an insult to people with any kind of a functioning moral conscience in Scotland.

      We all know for a fact that the endless horror story headlines in the news media of injustices committed against the weakest and most vulnerable in our communities, as a matter of Westminster policy, would come to halt almost overnight if the Scottish Government were in charge of the DWP.

      I have to say, to their endless credit, the Scottish mainstream news media (except for the BBC who are nothing more than DWP boot-lickers) have done a magnificent job reporting on the scandalous injustices perpetrated by the DWP, IDS and Fester McVile against people whose only crime is they have encountered unforeseen problems in the lives and need some temporary help, which they’ve already paid for, to see them through to better times.

    203. Nana Smith says:

      From the P&J.

      Moray SNP councillors no confidence in leaders

      Anyone able to read what that’s about?

    204. Dorothy Devine says:

      OT Anyone read the Gardham garbage in the Herald suggesting that Alex Salmond’s intervention over the “thousands” of folk objecting to the Makar having joined the SNP( only the Douglas home wifie at the last count and band wagon jumpers from the anyone but the SNP party)is unwelcome as was his intervention criticising Torrance and his ignorant biography and his radio phone in to Kaye with an ” e” over the pursuing of poll tax non payers.

      Deeply , deeply disgusted by the Herald and find myself most unwilling to support any publication from the same stable.
      The National journalists may be sincere but I suspect Newsquest is far from that.

    205. Ken500 says:

      The P & J is rubbish. People use it to light their fires. They will lose more readers.

      There are averse comments about Gordon Brown etc on MSM. The Guardian, Telegraph, Herald etc. Why single out Wings. Hypocrites.

    206. Macandroid says:

      O/T sort of

      Giving evidence now to the Devolution Committee – The Secretary of State for Scotland who doesn’t believe in the post and who doesn’t believe Scotland is a country.

      http://www.scottishparliament.tv/?vid=live-committee-room-5

    207. Lollysmum says:

      Rev
      Don’t know if it was intentional or not but I do like your comparison of SLAB councillors with the daft SNP ones being portrayed in the press just now-the timing is magnificent.

      SLAB have publicly back-stabbed Dugdale with intent to damage her standing as much as possible whilst Renfrew councillors have just been plain daft & have been suspended for it.

      What happened to SLAB councillors-nothing HOWEVER by discussing their actions here Stu has made very, very, very sure that the word gets out. SLAB can’t be trusted even by people on their own side & this demonstrates it for all to see.

      Its not on the BBC or in the papers but guess what-does it really need to be? The internet is everywhere & the press & journal helped with spreading the message a couple of days ago by bringing new readers here. Great isn’t it?

      In military terms it’s called counter-attack. Here we just call it ‘they don’t like it up em’.

      More power to your keyboard Stu keep showing everyone the dishonesty that is Labour. I like it but more importantly, WM is afraid of SNP, WOS & indy leaning folks of all parties & none. They know we can’t be trusted to do as we are told-YEAH RIGHT! And most of all they are worried about GE15.

      Tick, tock folks, tick, tock.

    208. Robert Louis says:

      Nana,

      The P&J is not really a reliable source for anything, least of all info on the SNP.

    209. desimond says:

      Im surprised at the ‘hero’ status being given to 3 adults setting something alight. How childish is burning something?

      Clowns pure and simple and certainly doesnt raise the debate.Werent they hugged enough as children?

    210. Nana Smith says:

      @Robert Louis

      I know..I just thought the wording was a bit strange, so I wondered how misleading the story was…that’s all.

      I do not buy or read the P&J

    211. Jim McIntosh says:

      @john king 7:21

      Totally agree with that whole post.

    212. Sinky says:

      Get the message out to Media that The Smith Commission is a just a Tory trap (check out the Strathclyde Commission findings which are similar) for Scotland.

      And remind Tom Greatrex (Herald this morning) and other unionists that even without any oil revenues Scotland’s GDP per head is 99% of the UK figure and Scotland would not be an impoverished nation without oil revenues.

      Regards The Makar and other burning issues, there is an election in five months times and the stakes for Labour’s survival in Scotland are high therefore every dirty trick in the book will be used in the media and on the doorsteps.

      If you thought the Unionist Referendum tactics were nasty you ain’t seen nothing yet.

    213. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Telephone conversation between Nicola Sturgeon and Davis Camneron the 8th May 2015

      FM Congratulations Mr Cameron on the result of the GE. Do you plan on running an alliance, foarmal or informal, oar a minority adminisitration.

      PM Thank you Nicola. Let me go straight to the nub of my problem. What will take for you to withdraw your tanks off my Westminster lawn?

      FM You mean just Alex Salmond or the lot of them?

      PM Let us start with all 50

      FM FFA for 3 years pending independence and a 7-10 year phased withdrawal of Trident with no replacement to be based here also.

      PM How soon can you come to No 10 to sign a vow?

      brrrrrrrrrr

      PM Nicola, Nicola, are you still there

    214. Nana Smith says:

      @desimond

      We are all human, right? As humans we all make mistakes and sometimes frustration makes us do some very silly things.
      I think these councillors know what is in store for Scotland regarding hard line austerity and they vented their frustration in this way.

      Seeing our country maligned and the poor, disabled & jobless being hounded is bloody frustrating. If I had a copy of that paper I would not hesitate to put it where it belongs…in the trash.

    215. Doug Daniel says:

      desimond: “Im surprised at the ‘hero’ status being given to 3 adults setting something alight. How childish is burning something?”

      Haven’t you heard? They were STANDING UP FOR SCOTLAND!!!! It was a protest!!! They refused to bow down to the establishment by bravely filming themselves pulling the kind of stunt you’d expect from politics students!!!

      If you haven’t already got a tattoo of their faces on your chest, then you’re obviously a unionist in disguise.

    216. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Burning a page or two of the Smith Report was a bit silly.

      It invites comparison with the Nazi burning of the books.

      Better to have shredded a few pages and then mixed it with some pig ordure to make a fertiliser.

      Much more expressive and could you imagine Slab drones trying to explain that without getting themselves in the doo doo?

    217. Gregor says:

      Hi got this in an email today looking for a vote of confidence, fat chance :-

      Today I set out the last Autumn Statement before the election with a clear message.

      Britain now faces a choice: we can squander the economic security we have gained with Labour’s plans for higher taxes and higher spending, or we can stay the course with our long-term economic plan that is working.

      The deficit is falling
      Unemployment is falling
      The economy is growing
      We do not shy away from the problems that remain unresolved in the British economy. But it’s only by working through the plan that we can deliver more security for hardworking families.

      That’s why we’re clear: we must stay the course to prosperity. So please get behind our plan and add your name to our petition today.

      Our long-term economic plan backs people who want to work hard and get on. It backs the aspiration to save, to work, and to own your own home.

      Today I announced:

      We will overhaul stamp duty so that 98% of stamp duty payers pay less tax when they buy their home.
      We will continue to back businesses to create jobs in all parts of the country – with action on business rates and more help for the high street.
      We will abolish the employers’ jobs tax on apprenticeships for people under 25 to help more young people get the skills they need.
      We will raise the personal allowance, and higher rate taxpayers will also benefit – a down payment on our commitments to raise the personal allowance to £12,500 and the higher rate threshold to £50,000 in the next parliament.
      We will cut tax for families by abolishing the air passenger duty paid for children.
      And we will support savers by letting husbands and wives inherit their partner’s ISA and keep its tax-free status.
      These measures are all part of our long-term economic plan that is building a stronger, healthier economy.

      Next year Britain gets to choose: do we squander the economic security we’ve gained by repeating the mistakes of the past? Or do we finish the job?

      We need to stay on course to prosperity – please add your name here to show your support.

      Yours,

      George Osborne

      ——————————————————————————–

      If you are having trouble reading this email, click here to view it in your web browser

      If you don’t want to receive any more messages from David Cameron and the Conservatives, click here to unsubscribe

      Promoted by Alan Mabbutt on behalf of the Conservative Party, both at 4 Matthew Parker Street, London, SW1H 9HQ

    218. No no no...Yes says:

      Remember that the SNP used to be a party of protest, they are now the party of Government, and a successful one at that. Such a position brings added responsibility regarding standards and behaviour.

      If my memory serves me correctly, when they came to power the Bannockburn day parades were stopped. The leadership has to be clear in its message and I agree with the action taken thus far. I imagine the 4 councillors will be reprimanded or censured. Lets all keep our focus on the big prize and do not give the Unionists a free kick at us!

    219. Doug Daniel says:

      Grouse Beater: “Deriding a technique of argument whilst unwittingly demolishing once own by employing the same technique.”

      I’m not sure how that could be called “reverse whataboutery” – that’s just hypocrisy. Anyway, “whataboutery” is pointing the finger at someone else and saying “what about them?” in order to excuse your own actions (or inaction), which is the exact opposite of what I’m doing – I’m asking for people to stop using other people’s actions to make excuses for doing daft things.

      “The SNP is dealing with almost 100,000 individuals from all walks of life, many smarter, more accomplished, and more experienced than some senior SNP MSPs. Being treated as if choirboys out of line is old school Labour politics.”

      Well these are senior SNP councillors, but I’m certainly willing to believe many of the SNP’s membership are smarter than they are, at least in this instance at any rate. Considering Nicola Sturgeon was the senior MSP that disciplined them, are you suggesting Nicola is thick, inexperienced and unaccomplished?

      “You cannot control a 100,000 from physical dissent when you’re the few in an executive. Next thing to happen is the executive will decline invitations to attend rallies in case somebody curses.”

      Nobody’s trying to control 100,000 people here, the 425 or so councillors will suffice. I personally couldn’t give a toss if a bunch of ordinary members had done this – people have done worse – but I don’t expect councillors to indulge in these kind of childish stunts.

      As I said above, this is the kind of immature nonsense I’d expect from the Aberdeen Labour councillor Willie Young – and no SNP councillor should be acting like Willie Young. It certainly doesn’t make them martyrs to the cause of independence, like some people seem to think.

    220. Jim McIntosh says:

      To paraphrase more than a few on this thread: “it was a silly stunt, I agree with the punishment, now let’s’ move on”

      One thing to ask you – if you think we should just move on, why was it so important that you had to tell us what your opinion of the matter was? Please don’t answer, the question was rhetorical.

      Not sure who depresses me more, the hand wringing type who ‘don’t want to give them more ammunition’, or the holier than thou ‘we shouldn’t stoop to their level’ lot.

      No wonder they’re laughing at us, we’re pathetic.

    221. desimond says:

      @Nana Smith

      Mistakes…indeed,”to err is human” and all that.

      I dont mind mistakes, but “Hey lets burn something” takes quite a lot of thought and execution rather than a “Oh shit, what did I just do there?” error.

      I thought I was back in Toryglen in the 70s\80s when bored kids used to burn the field at the end of the summer

      Im sounding as though these 3 guys annoyed me, They didnt register on my radar at all but the kudos being afforded them for such an immature act is rather grating.

    222. Luigi says:

      Jim McIntosh says:

      4 December, 2014 at 10:06 am

      To paraphrase more than a few on this thread: “it was a silly stunt, I agree with the punishment, now let’s’ move on”

      Jim,

      I think many of us are saying something a wee bit different:

      “It was a silly stunt BUT I AM HAPPY THAT THEY DID IT, I agree with a token punishment, now let’s move on”

    223. desimond says:

      @Jim McIntosh
      Pathetic?
      There is another way you could look at it: A Healthy difference of opinion. Remember when that was encouraged by Political parties?

      Would you rather we all had no opinion or had an opinion that relied on the head honcho telling us what our opinion is?

      Argument is good. Arguing about expressions of argument is also good. Just because we are walking in same direction doesnt mean we need to be singing the same song.

      Which is good.

    224. Ken500 says:

      They are borrowing more to fund growth and wasting £52Billion a year in interest payments. Would people it not have been better for people of average and above earnings, paying £20 a week to pay off the debt.

      Scotland would not have been in debt. Scotland raises more in taxes and spends less. Scotland pays £4Billion debt repayments on debt it doesn’t borrow or spend. Scotland has lost £4Billion in Oil tax revenues a year since 2011. Oil taxes were raised 11% (£2Billion) in 2011 Budget. They have been cut 2%. Scotland could save £3Billion with a tax on ‘loss leading’ drink, cutting Trident illegal wars. £10Billion. The rest of the UK borrows £100Billion more. Pro rata £10Billion. = £20Billion.

      Scotland could/would have had a £200Billion Oil Fund.

      Westminster stamp duty can be paid under new or old system for a period of time? Until April?

      HS2 £70Billion, Hinkley Point £25Billion, HS3 £7Billion, Crossrail 2 £20Billion, Thames Tidal Tideway sewer £4Billion, London Garden Bridge, 3rd London runway.

      £20Billion.

    225. muttley79 says:

      @Jim McIntosh

      I do not agree with what you have said there. The referendum campaign showed clearly that there is no level playing field. There is a massive power imbalance. The SNP councillors involved should know fine well the MSM bias against their party and independence.

    226. caz-m says:

      Spare a wee thought for these Paisley SNP Councillors. They have to go into that chamber every day and work with the screaming skull himself, Labour Councillor, Terry Kelly.

      That guy is an out and out fruitcake. He DETESTS the SNP and anyone associated with them. I was at the Referendum count there and had to watch Kelly and the rest of his Labour led Council buddies bouncing about with joy when the result came in. I have never felt so low, yet Kelly and the rest of his Labour mob were in full celebration along with their Tory Better Together side kicks.

      Renfrewshire Council is not for the faint hearted, there is a lot of hatred that comes from the Labour leaders of the council, aimed directly at SNP Councillors and activists.

      I would say the burning the book thing was done out of pure frustration. And Labour will be voted out in the 2017 Council elections.

    227. Luigi says:

      The “almost 100,000 members” has been mentioned a few times today. I would say that makes it more important that ever to have a tough leader. Sturgeon, like Salmond did before her, needs to rule the SNP with an iron rod. I say that as an outsider.

      As I said, I’m glad it was done, a great point was made, but a cost was incurred. If “silly stunts” by councillors are allowed to go unpunished, then it is only a matter of time before someone does something really stupid, and jeopardises the entire campaign for 2015. What’s next – flag burning? Make no mistake, it would happen and the MSM would have a field day. Think about it.

      It’s not rocket science.

    228. Karmanaut says:

      @Papadox 3 December, 2014 at 5:48 pm
      “Conclusion: the only thing keeping labour’s head above water is the EBC & MSM.”

      The main thing keeping Labour alive right now are Conservative voters, as we’ve just seen in the Midlothian East by-election.

      Many Tories realise that Labour is now firmly right of centre, and the best choice to keep left-wing policies out. Expect many more Tories to take Labour as their 2nd choice.

    229. HandandShrimp says:

      I can’t get too worked up by the burning of a report. I am sure if we dig through the annals of history people of other parties will have participated in similar events.

      The media fuss says more about Unionist desperation to try and spin every word and action by the Yes parties as something sinister or evil. That said I can understand Nicola not wanting to give them that opportunity in the run up to the election.

    230. Haggis Hunter says:

      Too right Mutley.
      Pro Independence supporters are victimised, bullied and singled out by the British media.
      Compare that to the disgusting behaviour of the No campaign, Nazi solutes, burning Yes shops, kicking a pregnant Yes supporting woman in the stomach, etc, etc, all of which went into news blackout.
      We have to be whiter than white while they can literally get away with murder.
      The media and British government is a dirty corrupt institution that lets MPs and Jimmy Saville away with child rape.
      We have to break this media abuse by what ever peaceful means are possible

    231. ronnie anderson says:

      Hollyrood parliament TV John Swinny answering question on Smith commission proposals Room 5

    232. Nana Smith says:

      @desimond

      I agree mistake is the wrong word, so let me amend that by changing it to ‘error of judgement’

      However having spoken to someone this morning who would never read anything ‘political’ he says he was curious about the burning so went to read the smith report.

      So the fact the media have gone overboard in their condemnation may have encouraged more people to read the report and see for themselves how little it offers to Scotland.

    233. Lenny hartley says:

      Craig does thinking

      John Swinney has already reformed Stamp Duty the new system is due tobe implemented next financial yeAr.

      Osborne propably made his changes effective today so it looksas if he thought of it first, although they are not identical systems as the thresholds in Scotland are lower to reflect lowe property prices,

    234. ronnie anderson says:

      Westminster Pete Wishart SNP MP just asked W Hauge Leader of the House to issue a section 30 order to allow young people to be able to vote in the May election.

    235. Valerie says:

      @caz-m, you are spot on about Renfrew Council, even years ago it was known as a bear pit, and police were called to the chamber a number of times.

      The Labour councillors were always thuggish grunts, and that was just the females.

    236. HandandShrimp says:

      I caught a rare bit of BBC news yesterday regarding stamp duty and I was taken by how little attempt there was to explain that the Scottish reforms were first and that they take place next year because that is when that particular power is devolved.

      They also made it sound as if Scotland was losing out by having our own system. I think we can take that as intent from the BBC over all future changes to taxation.

    237. Bill McLean says:

      Lots of opinions regarding the Myth burning and of course we should always be able to express our feelings. However, in this case, I believe that Nicola did the right thing. I am anxious though that those who were talking about leaving the SNP are doing the unionist medias job for them and indeed creating their next anti-SNP/Scotland headline and “whitabootery” just will not work – we all know how much publicity the media gives to unionist misdeeds. They will always support the Union line – they have wives, kids and mortgages too! I regret their cowardice but that is the reality. Keep the faith and keep cool! We are bound to win. We have right on our side. Let’s continue to keep decent behaviour on our side too!

    238. Doug Daniel says:

      Luigi: “If “silly stunts” by councillors are allowed to go unpunished, then it is only a matter of time before someone does something really stupid, and jeopardises the entire campaign for 2015. What’s next – flag burning? Make no mistake, it would happen and the MSM would have a field day. Think about it.”

      Exactly. People are already excusing this stunt with “but unionists burned saltires!”, so it would hardly be a massive jump for someone to go “actually, that means we can burn flags too…”

      And if that happened, it’s pretty obvious there would be a chorus of folk sticking up for them, going “yeah! They’re only doing what half the country wants to do anyway!”, as if we’ve already forgotten that a) not all of the 45% have a burning (arf, arf) hatred of the union, and b) we really need to be looking to entice at least 10% of the 55% who voted No to our cause to win next time, and they’re not going to do that if we think we’re all a bunch of raving loonies who burn anything we disagree with.

      The way some folk are talking, you’d think we already had the next referendum in the bag. Newsflash folks: we don’t.

    239. ronnie anderson says:

      Cmon Rev get another thread up post haste, we,re doing the D Retards job on here. Like everything else of little significance ( burning Paper )it exstinguished within a minute,give it a rest. I like many here have commented,but many here keep it going,much to the delight of the Media ever heard of Devide & Conquer.

      Theres more on Hollyrood Tv /Westminster to get your teeth into just now.

    240. Doug Daniel says:

      Jim McIntosh: “No wonder they’re laughing at us, we’re pathetic.”

      No, councillors acting like students is pathetic. People cringing at councillors acting like students is pretty reasonable.

    241. Karmanaut says:

      …Parliament today has voted on ammendments to the Smith Commission recommendations, removing Air Passenger Duty from the powers were were to have been devolved to Scotland, and limiting the control of income tax to prevent the Scottish government from lowering key rates. Both Conservative and Labour MPs welcomed these ammendments, which they claim are necessary to protect the economic stability of all nations within the UK, while keeping true to the spirit of the Smith Commission report.

      The SNP have labelled the changes “a profound backtracking” and “a betrayal of the Scottish people”, claiming that restrictions on the control of devolved income tax effectively make the power “unusable.”

      In response, a senior Conservative MP retorted, “These are astonishingly hypocritical statements from the Nationalists, who showed their contempt for the Smith report when their own councillors publicly burned it…”

      That’s yer news report from next year.

      Obviously the Daily Reptile, Daily Heil, and the Torygraph won’t mention that the councillors were suspended.

      In the grand scheme of things, it’s not a big deal. Just a jab which will just get our blood pressure up. But it will come again and again and again. Every single time the SNP complain about promises of powers “not being met” they will be called hypocrites.

      Annoying. But we’ve had a lot worse to contend with.

    242. chalks says:

      @Nana

      Moray SNP Councillors have filed a vote of no-confidence for the tory council leader…

    243. Stoker says:

      Thousands of Scotland’s children will once again be experiencing
      poverty this Christmas thanks to Unionist politicians and their
      corrupt and biased propaganda machine, led by the BBC and Daily
      Record newspaper.

      Lets give these ("Tractor" - Ed)s a Christmas to remember.
      Stand up and make yourself heard.

      http://www.indyscot.info/details.php?ref=110

    244. HandandShrimp says:

      Karmanaut

      True but on the other hand if Smith is diluted further than it already clearly has been then the SNP councillors can say “See we were right, an utterly worthless document”. The No side have as a very minimum deliver in full or better, or the Vow will be called a sham and fraud.

    245. SqueuedPerspextive says:

      @Bill McLean
      @Doug Daniel

      As much as I feel the anger at the double standards you mention, I must thank you both for reminding me that only cooler heads will prevail. The MSM grab any opportunity to portray those who disagree with the ‘Union’ as extremists. The fewer opportunities they are given fuels their only desperation to magnify minor acts and serves to hold a mirror up to their own unionist extremism.

    246. john king says:

      Doug Daniel says
      “People are already excusing this stunt ”

      Stunt? probably,
      worthy of the amount of airtime given it?
      definitely not,
      Maybe we should just gag our representatives ad stick em all in straight jackets?
      This continued fixation with being seen as the guys in white hats is a mistake, because when SLAB run with these strawman attacks the silence from the SNP is all your average LOV hears, so it must be that SLAB are right and the SNP are condemned by their silence or they would be screaming from the rooftops,

      Why does everyone think these people stand at FMQ’s and ask what to any half informed idiot listening is clear and palpable nonsense?
      they know its nonsense, we know its nonsense but the LOV guy hears it and immediately thinks its true,

      We for the first time have in our armoury the means to deliver a knockout blow to the establishment in the form of The National,

      We should use this to its absolute limit to finally deliver some balance to (up to now) a completely one sided argument, if after getting such support, we don’t use it to maximum effect the average man in the street is going to see the independence argument as being an empty vessel with no real substance,

      We MUST make our voice heard even if at times it draws attacks from the media otherwise we’ll go down as the nicest losers in history!

    247. Free Scotland says:

      Tried googling Scottish Independence a few minutes ago and got this:

      http://rt.com/uk/210983-cameron-uk-must-go

    248. chalks says:

      Do you people realise that when it comes to Labour v SNP there is only one winner in the media, and that is Labour.

      On the doorsteps and campaigning it’s a role reversal. entirely different. The councillors should know better, the SNP willingly took part in it, Swinney and Sturgeon had their say on it but still these councillors, decided that wasn’t enough and went into business for themselves and burned it.

      I’d rather move on but when something fkn stupid goes on, let’s be honest eh?

      It wasn’t even the proper fkn smith report either, so they failed in that regard as well.

    249. Midgehunter says:

      Don’t forget for those wanting to watch FMQs that you can use the non-censored

      http://www.scottishparliament.tv/?vid=live-chamber

      AND NOT THE UNIONIST BIASED BBC PROPAGANDA SERVICE.

    250. Doug Daniel says:

      John King: “This continued fixation with being seen as the guys in white hats is a mistake, because when SLAB run with these strawman attacks the silence from the SNP is all your average LOV hears, so it must be that SLAB are right and the SNP are condemned by their silence or they would be screaming from the rooftops,”

      Nobody’s saying we need to be seen as “the guys in white hats” – not acting like Willie Young is enough for me.

      What is this weird dichotomy that people seem to have fallen into, where the only options available are silence (bad) or burning things (good)? Is it not perhaps conceivable that there are better ways of making a point that don’t involve the kind of nonsense you’d expect from Siol nan Gaidheal?

    251. yesindyref2 says:

      To be perfectly honest, the more the MSM makes such a meal out of such a trivial nothingness event, the more the 55% will be able to see the gameplan of the MSM for themselves.

    252. HandandShrimp says:

      Moving on from the toasted report, of which I have already lost what little interest I had, I see that the Groaniard is doing a question and answer thing for the SLab contenders at 12.30. Some very good questions in there (for them to avoid or gloss over).

    253. Devereux says:

      @Doug Daniel talking a lot of sense. But isn’t it great so many people having robust discussions/disagreements about the way forward? A sign of a living, breathing movement. Tumbleweed blowing through unionist websites.

    254. jackie g says:

      Totally O/T

      can anyone tell me where i can get a copy of the national in Penicuik?

      had it online last week, and wee papershop where i work will not stock as area full of tories..

      Tried Tesco penicuik last night nae luck.

    255. Karmanaut says:

      @HandandShrimp

      You are right. I totally agree. The problem is that the MSM won’t show our side. They’ll just have a non-stop carnival of hatred over the SNP and the voices of the councillors will go unheard.

      But we’ve come through worse. I don’t think it’s worth any of us getting too riled up about the MSM. At least 45% of Scotland can see past their propaganda, so I’m actually quite optimistic.

    256. Karmanaut says:

      @PictAtRandom says: 3 December, 2014 at 8:29 pm
      “The best publicity stunt would be to make a giant copy and stage a tug-o-war to pull it apart — Team Scotland on one side and jokers in Boris and Nigel masks on the other.”

      I absolutely love that idea. In fact, I’d go as far as to make it a tug of war over “The Future of Scotland” itself.

    257. Lollysmum says:

      In my view, The SNP were right. Their immediate press releases after Smith report indicated the report was poor but they would work with it. Then they quite rightly shut up & got on with it. They knew that anything coming out of it that could be seen to be of even a minor benefit to Scotland would be rendered useless by WM. Not just by Labour but all WM parties.

      Now here we are just one week later, APD useless, DWP Workfare contracts extended, & Scots version of stamp duty also undermined. And we didn’t have to do anything for that to happen.

      Yes the SNP councillors gave us a laugh & they were suspended, correctly so but let be the last bit of idiocy to come from them.

      SNP only has to wait for WM to create the case for independence-they are doing that much better than the SNP could. And WM are doing that right now.

      @Free Scotland
      Thanks for that link to RT & Cameron Must Go. Did you notice in the last entry that the bulk of that hashtag users were centred on London. Cameron has a hell of a lot of enemies & not just in Scotland:-)

    258. HandandShrimp says:

      ‘The vow’ has not only been met – it has been exceeded. Over two million Scots voted for a stronger Scottish parliament within the UK. That’s what the Smith commission has delivered and it’s what the Scottish people clearly want.

      Jim Murphy’s opening salvo in the Guardian Q&A blog thing.

      Words fail me!

    259. Free Scotland says:

      @PictAtRandom and @Karmanaut

      What about making two giant copies, one for the tug-of-war and one for the Lewes bonfire event? That would cause massive confusion among the unionist-biased media.

    260. Macandroid says:

      I read the whole Myth report – and there’s no mention of squirrels anywhere!

    261. fred blogger says:

      HandandShrimp
      many other clips/news stories concerning what scotland was offered are available, here’s a good one that no one can argue with or against.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er2m9S__DXM

    262. YESGUY says:

      John King.

      Not often i read you angry and most on here know you as the Joker of this pack. Hope your a little calmer today my friend. I am livid with the SNP for suspending “Burners” as many are. The Faux outrage is typical of the unionists and i too believe there is a time for action, not words. The Smith./Comm is a useless worthless waste of time . We get what’s given, now fuck off. 🙁

      One day soon the whole country is going to rise in anger at the way we are being treated. People are angry and fed up with the tirade of shit from the MSM.

      I joined SNP and they will have my vote but we cannot sit by letting the Lab/Con/Lib/MSM spout their shit without redress . We played the “nice guy/girl” throughout the referendum and LOST.

      Time for a different approach.

      If labour win enough seats in Scotland through fear tactics again they will have proven that the softly softly approach is a failure . We Scots are not the quiet calm folk many on here think we are.

      We are a firey lot with bad tempers and loud voices .

      I believe every time they lie we should make a drama out of it , like they do. fight them at thier own game . Show the liars for what they are.

      Blair Jenkins tried the soft approach and lost. The unionists won with fear . Try telling folk what the cuts will cost them , frighten the life out of them if you must but lay off being the nice guy.

      This is a war. Make know mistake. Watch the news and hear the lies and spin. We will lose our country if we are too timid and not prepared to do anything to save her.

      Rant over.

    263. Lollysmum says:

      @ fred blogger

      That is excellent.Thanks for the link & well done Ponsonby Post

    264. Fred says:

      With all the budget excitement going on BBC Scotland might have been expected to raise its game somewhat today, but the 12 0 clock news lead with an ambulance-chasing expo’ by the hack Bradford on Glasgow Royal Infirmary where staff have been seen wearing bracelets & ignoring some dirty trolleys. This, Bradford assures us, could apparently lead to multiple deaths, as per those at the Vale of Leven. While not wishing to minimise hospital cleanliness per se, it’s a bit depressing seeing the NHS used continually for solely political purposes by the grim trio of Macbeth’s witches, Bailey, Bradford & the tart at the Herald whose name escapes me.
      Possibly there is a case for bringing back matron as has been suggested many times but there must surely be some good news worthy of reportage from the NHS.
      My own personal experience was of absolutely superb treatment,I wouldn’t be typing this were it otherwise! That is echoed by that received by family & friends. When do we get the GOOD NEWS?

    265. chalks says:

      If you think the Unionist media was bad in the referendum….just wait until the land reform laws get passed.

      That’ll be entertaining, expect the Daily Mail to blow their top.

    266. MJS Dundee says:

      Lesley Brennan – standing against Stuart Hosie … .

      Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha …

      … Half an hour of laughter later. It’s not any of these who’ll do a superb job of losing for SLab come May and 2016, it’s the lot of them. Impressive or what?

      But there’s something else in that and indeed many of these SLab letters and statements. They go on about how they need to change, how they’ve not been up to the job – openly admitting how useless they are. But nowhere in any of these utterances do they seem to know HOW they are going to change. What are their new distinctive policies and so on. The odd lame attempt in that direction – energy price freezes et sim – backfire spectacularly when the utilties slam up their prices now (just in case) or GeorgeO half-nicks them and turns them into a Red Tory trap (mansion/stamp duty).

      Their campaign machine is still very effective however and we shouldn’t be complacent. That is the one remaining feature of Lab that is worth us learning from and copying where appropriate. We learned much about that in the last days leading up to the 18th – cynical targetting of pensioners we now know all too well. Cynical maybe, but effective. If we adopt the same targetting strategy with our positive message, they’ll have nothing left at all. Other than pleading to vote Lab to avoid getting a Tory govt – er, didn’t we do that the last time? That worked well, didn’t it? Look …, there’s a Red Squirrel! Sorry my mistake, Tory. An endangered species I believe.

    267. Doug Daniel says:

      YESGUY: “Blair Jenkins tried the soft approach and lost. The unionists won with fear . Try telling folk what the cuts will cost them , frighten the life out of them if you must but lay off being the nice guy.”

      Hold on, are you seriously suggesting we should start using fear tactics on people to scare them into voting for independence? Have you not seen the fallout on the No campaign after doing that very thing?

      “This is a war. Make know mistake. Watch the news and hear the lies and spin. We will lose our country if we are too timid and not prepared to do anything to save her.”

      You make it sound like they laid down their lives for Scotland. They didn’t, they pulled a daft stunt.

      Have people just lost all sense of perspective or something? Every act by an indy supporter, no matter how trivial or stupid, must be defended to the hilt, because every act equates to trying to “save Scotland”.

    268. Jim McIntosh says:

      @Doug Daniels

      “Hold on, are you seriously suggesting we should start using fear tactics on people to scare them into voting for independence?

      You either didn’t read YESGUY’s comment or you’re attempting to use the same spin as the MSM use against us. Telling them what the cuts will cost them with the chance that this might scare the life out of them is not using fear tactics. Unlike what BT did it is telling it like it is. What are we supposed to do tell them about the cuts then say “but don’t worry you’ll be OK”.

      “You make it sound like they laid down their lives for Scotland. They didn’t, they pulled a daft stunt.”

      Can I ask what you’ve done for Scotland in the last week? At least they’re showing what they think of the report. This stunt is not going to put any of the 1.5M who voted YES off. It may harden some NO voters, but they are lost already, and unlike you I believe others who have access to Facebook, Twitter etc. will read about the saltire burning, report tearing up, Nazi salutes, bayoneting the wounded (do I have to go on), compare it to this harmless protest and think a bit more about which side they’re supporting.

      “Have people just lost all sense of perspective or something? Every act by an indy supporter, no matter how trivial or stupid, must be defended to the hilt”

      That generalisation shows me quite clearly who’s the one who’s lost perspective.

    269. Lollysmum says:

      WM SPAD’s will be reading these posts & laughing their socks off thinking they have us on the run. Don’t display your anger-channel it. On the doorsteps, at demos, here, twitter & Facebook etc.

      Open their eyes for them & let them know the truth-they should be looking for new jobs now ’cause there’ll be a rush come May.

      REVENGE IS BEST SERVED COLD!

    270. Jim McIntosh says:

      @Lollysmum

      Sorry I think you’re wrong there. They’ll start laughing if due to disagreements we start leaving WoS. That’s not going to happen. We might disagree on the path to get there but ALL of us on here have one goal. Independence.

      There’s nothing wrong with robust debate. It must scare them witless that this site alone has 300,000 unique visitors a month.

    271. Doug Daniel says:

      @Jim McIntoshs
      “That generalisation shows me quite clearly who’s the one who’s lost perspective.”

      Well it’s certainly not me. I see a bunch of councillors acting the goat and it makes me cringe, whereas others have used words like “courage” and applauded them for “standing up” to the union, like it was the greatest act of defiance ever or something.

      “Can I ask what you’ve done for Scotland in the last week?”

      I didn’t realise we weren’t allowed to criticise the actions of others unless we could prove we’d “done” something for Scotland first. Is going to a local branch meeting and writing an article for Wings good enough, or does that only allow me to tut loudly while shaking my head?

      “This stunt is not going to put any of the 1.5M who voted YES off.”

      Probably not, but it’s not going to convince any of the 2 million who voted No either, so why bother doing it?

      “unlike you I believe others who have access to Facebook, Twitter etc. will read about the saltire burning, report tearing up, Nazi salutes, bayoneting the wounded (do I have to go on), compare it to this harmless protest and think a bit more about which side they’re supporting.”

      Well I don’t. If all those things didn’t put them off the union before, I struggle to see how this will suddenly make them go “oh wow, this really puts all that stuff in perspective, and I’m now totally in favour of independence”.

    272. bookie from hell says:

      was in SCOTMID—loads of DAILY RECORD papers

      moved from bottom shelf to top shelf

    273. YESGUY says:

      Thanks Jim McIntosh.

      Doug you missed the point bud.

      As tempted as i am to answer you back i think Jim said it perfectly.

      Your reply to the ” Burners” is the same as the MSM, Over the top and a wee bit unfair. Folk have the right to the truth no matter how scarey. Our nation is being conned .

      This austerity is killing folk , i know a few who are gone because of this govt;s action. I have severe heart and lung damage , serving my country Doug. They call me a scrounger and benefit cheat because i cannot work. I am 52 and will not see 60 , never mind the pension age and i have children and grandchildren who will suffer if this does not change.

      Every day the MSM ignore the unionists bullshit but if one YESSER says something or does something they don’t like it’s almost hysterical in their actions.

      I admire the “token” of Defiance shown by the burners. Good for them for expressing their feelings. We moan here and get nothing in return. These guys may have done something You decide is stupid, not me, I am with John King and Jim and the many others who give them my support.

      24/7 bullshit and after nearly three years of being nice and positive we are still the losers.

      And Doug . I didn’t ask for violence or whatever, just a different approach to the one that is failing us now. You have been here a long time, you know this.

      Scotland has a history of glorious failures, Maybe now is the time for a different way.

    274. Lollysmum says:

      @ Jim McIntosh

      WHAT? Leave WOS-perish the thought. Good laugh + intelligent conversation & debate. What’s not to like?

    275. Grouse Beater says:

      Doug Daniel:

      Councillors acting like students is pathetic. People cringing at councillors acting like students is pretty reasonable.

      You have a problem with students too!

      There are thousands protesting in Hong Kong. They want real democracy like us.

      According to you they’re acting like councillors.

      I am sorry to see you taking the reactionary role. As I said, the SNP has a new generation of enthusiasts – wise up.

    276. Tam Jardine says:

      Doug Daniel 11.05am

      “Exactly. People are already excusing this stunt with “but unionists burned saltires!”, so it would hardly be a massive jump for someone to go “actually, that means we can burn flags too…”

      And if that happened, it’s pretty obvious there would be a chorus of folk sticking up for them, going “yeah! They’re only doing what half the country wants to do anyway!”

      I’m sorry Doug but I disagree with you there- I posted last night about this and you took the opposite view- fine. Its a massive leap to assume yes supporters would stick up for flag burning. I certainly know of none who would.

      If anything my experience of the campaign was that discipline was strong and anyone out of line (on this site in particular) was jumped on straight away. I don’t mean to prolong this (and wasn’t going to post again on the subject). YESGUY and others feel passionate rage on this and it is fair enough- the Smith commission report is an insult. Should the councillors have known better- certainly. Lets keep this in perspective though.

      Anyway- have a guid night. Enjoyed your article on Tuesday BTW

    277. Lochside says:

      @Doug Daniel: the ‘Siol nan Gaidheal’ comparison shows you’ve lost the plot mate!

      Point is: the msm rubbish and magnify every time SNP/YES people don’t ‘walk the line’. So if the Leadership i.e.NS etc. don’t counter attack or even better, attack the Unionists in the first place, then we end up with puny protests like the Renfrew Four, purely through frustration.

      I’m afraid you seem to forget that we lost! and all because of Fear…Lying Fear.

      Maybe if the SG tried telling the Fearful Truth, a diametrically opposite approach that has not even begun to be attempted.

      If you want the Dudley Do right approach then get the SNP leadership to get the verbal boxing gloves out and start making knock out points that even the BBC can’t refute.

      Fuck this softly softly bullshit..the best form of defence is attack!

    278. Grouse Beater says:

      Lochside:
      Fuck this softly softly bullshit. The best form of defence is attack!

      Always has been.

    279. Doug Daniel says:

      So let me get this right folks: because I think this was childish nonsense that doesn’t do anything to further the cause, that automatically means I want a softly-softly approach?

      This is what I mean about a dichotomy between silence (bad) and burning stuff (good), and how every act has to be defended to the hilt, no matter how daft it is. It is actually possible to want a robust approach while thinking this is not the way to do it. People aren’t going to be convinced by pranks, they’re going to be convinced by strong arguments.

      There’s an awful lot of folk going on about how they think the SNP needs to start being more assertive or whatever, but no one actually spells out what they mean by that. So if folk aren’t saying they want the SNP to start doing crappy publicity stunts, then what do they mean?

      Grouse Beater: “I am sorry to see you taking the reactionary role. As I said, the SNP has a new generation of enthusiasts – wise up.”

      Well, most of the folk I’ve seen defending this are, to put it politely, not exactly new activists; and the councillors themselves certainly aren’t. So maybe I’m not the one that needs to “wise up”…? Disagreeing with someone’s antics doesn’t make a person reactionary, incidentally.

    280. Rock says:

      Doug Daniel,

      However silly, the burning was NOT a suspension matter.

      If Nicola responds in this way to unionist complaints, she will be made to look weak by the unionists, that is their objective.

      The SNP is a democratic party. The councillors did not do anything illegal or undemocratic.

      The SNP is strong and it must act strong. It must not be bullied and blackmailed by the unionists.

      The people of Scotland know that the SNP is working very well in Scotland’s interests. They do no give a damn about a few SNP councillors burning a report which wasn’t worth the paper it was written on.

      We must stop placating the unionists. We must stand up to them.

    281. joe kane says:

      The Unionists can do what they want and never get held to account. They can even make nazi salutes and go on a riot in the middle of Scotland’s biggest city and all the BBC does is claim it as some sort of clash between two opposing sides. Meanwhile poisonous, loathsome One Nation Labour spinners on Twitter go on endlessly about the non-existent “blood and soil” nationalism of indy supporters.

      We’re held to a different standard. I know we need to be disciplined and give the Unionist no cause for complaint but they just invent stuff to smear us with anyway regardless of how well behaved we are.

      Remember when they bullied the SNP Scottish Government Transport Minister out of office when even the BBC weather forecast wasn’t able to predict the coming cold snap? Yet the BBC wasn’t held to account for their failure to predict future events when it was their actual job.

      Reference –
      Stewart Stevenson, Transport Minister, resigns from the Government
      11 Dec 2010
      http://www.newsnetscotland.scot/index.php/scottish-news/1198-stewart-stevenson-transport-minister-resigns-from-the-government

    282. joe kane says:

      SNP MP Pete Wishart has tweeted –
      Someone actually bothered to write a letter to the @thecourieruk that I had no tie on a constituency visit. And the Courier published it!
      https://twitter.com/PeteWishart/status/540476029920628737

    283. Grouse Beater says:

      Doug Daniel: <Disagreeing with someone’s antics doesn’t make a person reactionary, incidentally

      In this instance it does.

      The councillors were sanctioned by SG. Doesn’t need you to pile on the punishment, jumping up from the back shouting, ‘Aye, pillory them!”

    284. Doug Daniel says:

      Grouse Beater: “The councillors were sanctioned by SG. Doesn’t need you to pile on the punishment, jumping up from the back shouting, ‘Aye, pillory them!””

      And you’re saying I’m being reactionary? Oh the irony. How on earth does me disagreeing with people in the comments of an article equate to “piling on the punishment”? Besides, I’ve already said (either here or on Twitter) that I don’t think they should actually be chucked out of the party. A public kick up the backside will suffice.

      Rock says: “However silly, the burning was NOT a suspension matter.

      If Nicola responds in this way to unionist complaints, she will be made to look weak by the unionists, that is their objective.

      The SNP is a democratic party. The councillors did not do anything illegal or undemocratic.

      The SNP is strong and it must act strong. It must not be bullied and blackmailed by the unionists.”

      You know, it is possible for someone to think this was a daft thing to do that deserved a telling off without having to be “bullied” into it by unionists.

      I reckon this was done to nip things in the bud. We’ve already had one councillor on a one-man mission to declare UDI, which is against SNP policy, and I reckon the leadership wanted to send a little reminder to councillors before things started getting out of hand that they’re meant to be representing their constituents and the party, not their own egos.

      (Incidentally, the legality of the act is neither here nor there – they could have shat on it and that wouldn’t have been illegal either, but I’d like to think people wouldn’t have stuck up for them if they’d done that…)

      “The people of Scotland know that the SNP is working very well in Scotland’s interests. They do no give a damn about a few SNP councillors burning a report which wasn’t worth the paper it was written on.”

      How do you know? If there’s one lesson I’ve taken from the referendum, it’s to never assume folk think what we would like them to think.

    285. Lochside says:

      @Doug Daniel: ‘This is what I mean about a dichotomy between silence (bad) and burning stuff (good), and how every act has to be defended to the hilt, no matter how daft it is’.

      You’ve made the false dichotomy. No-one is saying it’s one or the other. We want direct action by the SNP Leadership in attacking the lies and mistruths daily being pumped out by the Unionists/MSM alliance.

      If you let the red mist subside and get off your high horse for a moment…think about how many big lies went unchallenged in the REF campaign?

      Blair Jenkins epitomised the ‘nice guy’ approach. In the last week he was asked on ‘Call Kaye’ by a pro-Yes caller how much tax in total Scotland raised. He couldn’t or wouldn’t answer it and allowed Douglas Alexander to peddle the 6 billion black hole lie about our GDP unchallenged.

      He also refused to criticise the BBC directly, while they in turn have been on the offensive, literally, towards any criticism from the YES side. Just think of Prof Robertson’s vilification.

      Doug, you’ve been a good and erudite contributor on here for several years, don’t allow yourself to permit the Unionists to con you into navel gazing intrtospection because of a impetuous act by four councillors.

    286. Grouse Beater says:

      Doug Daniel: And you’re saying I’m being reactionary?

      Aye.
      I note you side-stepped my surprise at your unintentional dissing of students. You come across as a curmudgeonly old pensioner, Doug. By the way, the ‘public’ kicking that you advocate <is one form of getting pilloried by the villagers. Anyhow, I’ll leave you to your finger wagging and tut-tutting.

      Lochside: Blair Jenkins epitomised the ‘nice guy’ approach.

      He was completely uninspiring. There were times I thought I was listening to a middle-management representative of Marks & Spencer. The Yes campaign was desperate for a person of fiery oratory, memorable phrases, sharp wit, and passion. We got the head of Women’s Lingerie.

    287. Joybell says:

      @ Grouse Beater

      Are you one of those people who must always have the last word, even though it adds nothing to the debate?

    288. Rock says:

      Doug Daniel,

      “We’ve already had one councillor on a one-man mission to declare UDI, which is against SNP policy”

      Declaring UDI is not at all the same as burning a report which was not worth the paper it was written on.

      “I reckon the leadership wanted to send a little reminder to councillors before things started getting out of hand that they’re meant to be representing their constituents and the party, not their own egos.”

      Burning a fraud of a report is representing 1.6 million Yes voters, not their own egos.

      “How do you know? If there’s one lesson I’ve taken from the referendum, it’s to never assume folk think what we would like them to think.”

      I know because after 7 years in government, the SNP continue to be well ahead in the polls. Did any ‘ordinary’ voter complain about the burning?

    289. Paula Rose says:

      I want the last word, I want the last word, and no burning or sweary words mind.

    290. Fred says:

      Paula, ye’re no gettin the last word hen.
      This has all been a storm in the proverbial teacup, there are matters of much greater import if your knickers really require torsion.
      How much of a storm was there in the unionist media when the transformer of the independence-leaning Sunday Herald was set alight one dark night in the vital run up to the referendum? When was the last time that a newspaper’s transformer was set alight in Glasgow city centre and the print run threatened? At an uninformed guess I’d say never.
      Who did it? don’t hold your breath.

    291. Grouse Beater says:

      Are you one of those people who must always have the last word, even though it adds nothing to the debate?

      Are you one of those people who must always add a catty remark, even though it adds nothing to the debate?

      🙂

    292. Grouse Beater says:

      Fred: This has all been a storm in the proverbial teacup

      True, Fred.
      I see a young leader of Labour youth has been charged with beating up his girlfriend. As one wit said, “It could have been worse. He might have thrown an egg, or burnt a piece of paper.”

      🙂



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